From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Dec 1 01:22:28 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:22:28 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 30/11/2009 21:03, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Also, what is your board arrangement in the backplane? You have a >> very simple system (CPU, MEM, SLU, termination+boot), but you still >> have to preserve the grant chain between the CPU and the BDV-11. > > Actually, you don't. If anything else uses the grant chain, you must > preserve the chain between the "anything" and the CPU. However, it > was common to put the BDV11 in the last slot, leaving others empty, > and that's a standard configuration. > I'm somewhat confused by this, I know how and why you need grant cards in a Unibus machine. But I thought the Qbus made away with that need, although I have read something about it being needed for certain cards and that some controllers need to be the last card. Anyway, I have mine in the order: CPU, MEM, SLU, TERM, with some space between for easier handling. The backplane is not the serpentine version, when I got it, it had a RL01 controller in it (I got two RL01 drives too) which I believe need the straight backplane. I will check the console cable, it came with the machine but is home made, it goes directly from the card (i.e. no cab kit). I'm fairly certain of the baud speed, the manual was quite clear on the jumpering on the DLVJ1 (I call it that because the pdp-11 field guide lists it as such). Thanks Pete and Ethan /Pontus. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 1 01:54:19 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 07:54:19 +0000 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B14CBAB.9000501@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/12/2009 07:22, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 30/11/2009 21:03, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> Also, what is your board arrangement in the backplane? You have a >>> very simple system (CPU, MEM, SLU, termination+boot), but you still >>> have to preserve the grant chain between the CPU and the BDV-11. >> >> Actually, you don't. If anything else uses the grant chain, you must >> preserve the chain between the "anything" and the CPU. However, it >> was common to put the BDV11 in the last slot, leaving others empty, >> and that's a standard configuration. >> > I'm somewhat confused by this, I know how and why you need grant cards > in a Unibus machine. But I thought the Qbus made away with that need, Not entirely. There are no jumpers to change, though. > although I have read something about it being needed for certain cards > and that some controllers need to be the last card. The RQDX1 needs to be the last card, because it doesn't pass grants. I'm not aware of any other card with that problem. Anyway, I have mine > in the order: CPU, MEM, SLU, TERM, with some space between for easier > handling. You don't want to have spaces, except perhaps between the terminator and the cards above it. Put the memory right under the CPU, and the SLUs right under that. If the BDV11 is further down, it'll be fine, and if you need to add another card, it still easy. > The backplane is not the serpentine version, when I got it, it had a > RL01 controller in it (I got two RL01 drives too) which I believe need > the straight backplane. > > I will check the console cable, it came with the machine but is home > made, it goes directly from the card (i.e. no cab kit). I'm fairly > certain of the baud speed, the manual was quite clear on the jumpering > on the DLVJ1 (I call it that because the pdp-11 field guide lists it as > such). It got renamed late in the microVAX/microPDP-11 era. Strictly speaking, only the late revisions of the card should be called that, because only those revisions work in certain late systems, which was the point of the renaming. Most people still refer to them all as DLV11-J. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From sb at thebackend.de Tue Dec 1 02:09:23 2009 From: sb at thebackend.de (Sebastian Brueckner) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:09:23 +0100 Subject: Wanted: QBUS Backplane Message-ID: <4B14CF33.5080703@thebackend.de> Hi, in order to rebuild my LSI-11 System (salvaged from some kind of machine control system in the scrapyard) I'm looking for a small QBUS backplane (including the card cage). Something like 2x4 or 2x8 would be perfect (H9281). Anyone willing to part with one of these? I'd love to get this thing going again, but the original enclosure was just too big and heavy -- so I need a smaller replacement in order to make it compatible with both my girlfriend and my tiny flat ;-) - Sebastian PS: I'm in Germany but I will of course pay for shipping over the great lake if necessary! From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Dec 1 02:15:17 2009 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 02:15:17 -0600 Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 - CLAIMED Message-ID: This book has been claimed - thank you. ******************************************** Available for the cost of mailing - AFIPS Conference Proceedings, 1979 National Computer Conference. I'll send it media mail but it's a big book - weighs about 6 pounds. Jack From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 1 03:38:48 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:38:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > CD/DVD (and now BD)? What is BD? Bande d?ssin?e (=comic strip)? ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 1 03:47:15 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:47:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tek 3002GPX - Was: Re: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... In-Reply-To: <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I dream with a replacement for my Tektronix 3001GPX Keyboard :o) Hm, BTW, does anyone happen to have floppy images of the system software for the 3002GPX and 32GPX plugin? I have such a beast complete with manuals and pods, and the system software loaded onto the harddisk (the system works OK so far), but I am missing the distribution disks, just for the sake of completeness. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 1 03:53:32 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:53:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > I have come across 2 HP-HIL keyoard types. The HP46020 is the older one, [...] > The HP46021 is the later one, and claims to e compatible. The PCB in that [...] Then there is at least one more very common HP-HIL keyboard, the HP46030. I have several of them, they are/were used on the HP Vectra PCs. And they physically work with HP workstations, but the key codes don't match. Christian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 07:17:07 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:17:07 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B151753.4090605@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> CD/DVD (and now BD)? > > What is BD? Bande d?ssin?e (=comic strip)? ;-) Blu-ray Disc Peace... Sridhar From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 1 08:50:33 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:50:33 -0500 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> Anyone know of programs (Windows, Linux or Mac based) to take existing PCB films, scan them in and turn them into Gerbers so that long since discontinued PCB's can be reproduced? Curt From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 09:01:23 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:01:23 -0500 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I'm somewhat confused by this, I know how and why you need grant cards > in a Unibus machine. But I thought the Qbus made away with that need, > although I have read something about it being needed for certain cards > and that some controllers need to be the last card. The "difference" in terms of grants and slots and jumpers is that you don't have to modify your Qbus backplane to have a DMA-capable (NPR - non-processor request) card in a single slot, but you do for Unibus. The Qbus still has a grant chain for interrupts just like the Unibus. There is a Qbus grant card, M9047, that looks very similar to the Unibus G727 (and descendants) grant card, but the bridged pins are slightly different (and the handle is Magenta, not Green). When we were making Qbus and Unibus periperals, we stuffed one of our own Unibus grant cards (w/NPR jumper) in every box - I wanted to make a version that could be rejumpered to work in a Qbus backplane, but we had so many Unibus grant cards on the shelf that we never needed to order more cards. > Anyway, I have mine in the order: CPU, MEM, SLU, TERM, with > some space between for easier handling. The order is fine, but unless you have no blank slots between the CPU and SLU, you might have problems. Thanks to Pete for reminding me that you can have space above the BDV-11 and it won't matter. It's been a few years since I loaded up a Qbus (all of mine are pretty well set these days). The card that really matters is the RQDX1 - you can't put things behind it because it doesn't pass grant. DEC broke their own rules there, but since they expected you to install the RQDX1 in a BA23 and the cable for the distribution board comes up from the bottom, there's little reason *not* to put the RQDX1 in last. It doesn't have to be in the bottom-most slot of the entire backplane, but it does need to be the bottom-most installed card in the backplane. > The backplane is not the serpentine version, when I got it, it had a > RL01 controller in it (I got two RL01 drives too) which I believe need > the straight backplane. That should be the "CD" backplane (can't remember the part number). I have one like that, with an RLV11 as well. Yes... dual-height cards just stack down the left edge. > I will check the console cable, it came with the machine but is home > made, it goes directly from the card (i.e. no cab kit). I'm fairly > certain of the baud speed, the manual was quite clear on the jumpering > on the DLVJ1 (I call it that because the pdp-11 field guide lists it as > such). If you are going right into the SLU card, check that you are in the correct port (all the way left or all the way right - I'd have to go look at a machine or read the handbook to be certain), and do check the baud rates. Of course what we usually did when we weren't sure of the baud rate was to set the terminal to the most common ones and poke at it - it was faster to check 3-4 baud rates that way (300, 1200, 9600, at least) than to tear apart the machine. If that didn't work, we did it the long way and examined the hardware. Of course, as pointed out further up this thread, there are some details about the specific wiring for even a direct cable - the necessary information is in the Microcomputer Peripherals Handbook - some DEC serial connections are straight RS-232 (1488/1489 drivers), some are differential (9636/9637drivers) and may require a jumper or converter. As for the name, when it first came out in the 1970s, it was called the DLV11J, since other SLUs were the DLV11E, etc. DEC started renaming certain cards with the newer Qbus convention (RQDX1, et al.) in part, I think, to get rid of the '11' and in part to reassure the customers that this card will work in a VAX - thus DLVJ1. The renaming might have worked for other cards, but I have honestly never seen a DLV11J (or DLVJ1) in a MicroVAX, only in a PDP-11, so for me, the old name will stick. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 1 09:07:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:07:24 -0500 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone know of programs (Windows, Linux or Mac based) to take > existing PCB films, scan them in and turn them into Gerbers so that > long since discontinued PCB's can be reproduced? I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http:// pcb.gpleda.org/, for UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the background of the board layout for tracing purposes. This is a great program; it's under very active development by some very smart people. I've used it for years for both personal and commercial projects. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Dec 1 09:24:28 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:24:28 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> > > Anyway, I have mine in the order: CPU, MEM, SLU, TERM, with > > some space between for easier handling. > > The order is fine, but unless you have no blank slots between the CPU > and SLU, you might have problems. I'm not sure how to parse that sentence (my first language is swedish). Should I have space between CPU and SLU or not? And why would i matter? /Pontus. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 10:24:13 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:24:13 -0300 Subject: Tek 3002GPX - Was: Re: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net><4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com><194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <20bf01ca72a3$2ceb6320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Hm, BTW, does anyone happen to have floppy images of the system software > for the 3002GPX and 32GPX plugin? I have such a beast complete with > manuals and pods, and the system software loaded onto the harddisk (the > system works OK so far), but I am missing the distribution disks, just for > the sake of completeness. This is not something hard to find. I remember seeing that in the wild. But you can join the tekscopes list, there are lots of people willing to help and with same hardware as you. I'll forward your requeirment there. If someone can help Christian, please enter in contact :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 10:59:19 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:59:19 -0300 Subject: Scanning PCB films References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com><194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre><4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http:// pcb.gpleda.org/, for > UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the background of the board > layout for tracing purposes. With **milimetric precision**??? If yes, that is my dream! :oD Circad came closer, but it distorts the image From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 10:21:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:21:40 -0500 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > >> > Anyway, I have mine in the order: CPU, MEM, SLU, TERM, with >> > some space between for easier handling. >> >> The order is fine, but unless you have no blank slots between the CPU >> and SLU, you might have problems. > > I'm not sure how to parse that sentence (my first language is swedish). Sorry for that. Your written English is quite good, but I understand that indirect and conditional expressions in English can be hard to untangle, especially for non-native speakers/readers. > Should I have space between CPU and SLU or not? And why would i matter? You should not have any spaces between CPU and memory and the SLU. It matters because you need to keep the grant chain unbroken. You can install the boards sequentially with no gaps (slot 1, slot 2, slot 3), or you can find some M9047 Qbus grant cards to place between CPU and memory and the SLU. That sentence above is complex and conditional because as Pete pointed out, you *can* have gaps in front of the BDV11 terminator - it does not require a continuous grant chain. If you are configuring a Qbus machine, you should have the Microcomputer Handbook and the Microcontroller Peripherals Handbook from the era of your equipment at hand for reference. These machines are not as simple to set up as modern PC hardware and have a number of issues that are well documented but not obvious to a new user. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 1 10:54:35 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:54:35 -0800 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com><194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre><4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B154A4B.5040702@bitsavers.org> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http:// pcb.gpleda.org/, >> for UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the background of the >> board layout for tracing purposes. > > With **milimetric precision**??? > > If yes, that is my dream! :oD Circad came closer, but it distorts the > image > Do you have a calibrated scanner? In the days of CCD scanners with optics (as opposed to Contact Image Sensors) you had to carefully align the optics so that the resultant image was scaled correctly, so that a 1" line was exactly 400 pixels long on a 400dpi scan. I don't know if it's even possible to set the scaling of a scanner with a CIS. I should run downstairs to the CHM scanning lab and see how accurate the different models of scanners we have there actually are. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 1 12:18:11 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:18:11 -0500 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> There were a couple of programs around a few years ago, I'll dig around on sourceforge, but they allowed you to take original PCB films, scan them in and convert them into gerbers. I'd use a commercial service, but I have so many films, that it will be too cost prohibitive. Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Anyone know of programs (Windows, Linux or Mac based) to take >> existing PCB films, scan them in and turn them into Gerbers so that >> long since discontinued PCB's can be reproduced? > > I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http://pcb.gpleda.org/, > for UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the background of the > board layout for tracing purposes. > > This is a great program; it's under very active development by some > very smart people. I've used it for years for both personal and > commercial projects. > > -Dave > From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 12:29:42 2009 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:29:42 -0800 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you live in Vancouver you MUST check this out: http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction Almost 120 machines are for sale, including: * Boxed IBM 5150 Personal Computer - The original PC from 1982, from which all modern PCs are still derived. Comes in box with accessories and manuals. * NeXT cube and NeXT Stations - The computers on which the World Wide Web was created. * Boxed Amiga 1000 - The first of a revolutionary line of computers. Comes in box with accessories and hardware upgrades. * Atari 1040STE - One of Atari's best and well know in the world of music. * Apple Macintosh 128k - The original Mac from 1984. * In addition to systems, there are other goodies like Model M keyboards for sale I have seen the stuff with my own eyes and this is not something to miss. There are some real gems going up for grabs. Sadly, no PDP stuff. :( John From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 12:48:44 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:48:44 -0500 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 13:29, John Ball wrote: > > If you live in Vancouver you MUST check this out: > > http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction > > Almost 120 machines are for sale, including: I think I see a PET IEEE-488 harddisk in the pictures... and possibly a B-series PET. Crap, I'm on the wrong side of the country! Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 1 12:56:17 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:56:17 -0500 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Please let me know what you find; I'm interested in doing this to a few boards as well. RS274X being a vector format, it's not a trivial problem to solve. -Dave On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > There were a couple of programs around a few years ago, I'll dig > around on sourceforge, but they allowed you to take original PCB > films, scan them in and convert them into gerbers. I'd use a > commercial service, but I have so many films, that it will be too > cost prohibitive. > > > Curt > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> Anyone know of programs (Windows, Linux or Mac based) to take >>> existing PCB films, scan them in and turn them into Gerbers so >>> that long since discontinued PCB's can be reproduced? >> >> I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http:// >> pcb.gpleda.org/, for UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the >> background of the board layout for tracing purposes. >> >> This is a great program; it's under very active development by >> some very smart people. I've used it for years for both personal >> and commercial projects. >> >> -Dave >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 13:01:45 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:01:45 -0600 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912011101r18a444cfm1ce1012abf25abcc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Joachim Thiemann < joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote: > I think I see a PET IEEE-488 harddisk in the pictures... and possibly > a B-series PET. > Crap, I'm on the wrong side of the country! > There's four amiga 2000s (one without the cover) and 3 500s. On the top shelf is an amiga 1000 under the monitor, but most importantly, attached to the right side of the amiga 1000 is this: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 It's an XT compatible sidecar upgrade for the 1000. These are very rare. (and I don't mean ebay-rare) It lacks a hard drive, but iirc, there are three 8-bit isa slots in there. There's a guy on amiga.org who put a hard-card and a separate video card in his. The XT can act as a file server for the 1000. I'd love to have that setup (and a 1040st, next cube, 5160, 5170... ), but alas, i'm too far away. brian From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 1 13:08:51 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 19:08:51 -0000 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> CD/DVD (and now BD)? > > What is BD? Bande d?ssin?e (=comic strip)? ;-) More or less, Blue Ray (Disc) is definitely someone having a laugh :-) Antonio From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 13:35:00 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 14:35:00 -0500 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912011101r18a444cfm1ce1012abf25abcc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380912011101r18a444cfm1ce1012abf25abcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0912011135j2b857c08gc962d4a1b31352d1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 14:01, Brian Lanning wrote: > There's four amiga 2000s (one without the cover) and 3 500s. ?On the top > shelf is an amiga 1000 under the monitor, but most importantly, attached to > the right side of the amiga 1000 is this: > > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 > > It's an XT compatible sidecar upgrade for the 1000. ?These are very rare. > (and I don't mean ebay-rare) ?It lacks a hard drive, but iirc, there are > three 8-bit isa slots in there. ?There's a guy on amiga.org who put a > hard-card and a separate video card in his. ?The XT can act as a file server > for the 1000. Could you have told me this BEFORE I gave mine to Dave Dunfield? :-) (No don't worry Dave, I don't want it back! :-) Frankly I don't think they were that rare - maybe they are now. I kept the Xebec controller and the 20Meg drive I was using for the exact purpose you described (my workbench floppy had just enough drivers on it to load janus.library and then pass control to a startup-sequence on the HD). Still trying to extract the data off that... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 1 13:21:19 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:21:19 +0000 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B156CAF.4020309@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/12/2009 18:48, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 13:29, John Ball wrote: >> http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction > I think I see a PET IEEE-488 harddisk in the pictures... and possibly > a B-series PET. > Crap, I'm on the wrong side of the country! I'm on the wrong side of a large body of water :-( There are four or more NeXT monitors in the first pic, and looks like NeXT slabs on the shelves. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 1 13:36:42 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:36:42 +0000 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org><5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > I was thinking non optical when I wrote that. I bet most CDR/RW burners > of ZIP drive vintage are recycled by now, yet I still see zip drives all > over the place (even thrift stores). Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in working order? As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured) discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In some cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus destroying more Zip drives, and so on and so on. I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since I got my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- still doing sterling service in my brother's PC). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 13:38:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 14:38:04 -0500 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 13:29, John Ball wrote: >> >> If you live in Vancouver you MUST check this out: >> >> http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction > > I think I see a PET IEEE-488 harddisk in the pictures... I do, too - over on the left, on top of the PET floppy unit (2040? 4040?), between the two PETs. We've just been discussing D9060 and D9090 drives over on the cbm-hackers list this week. Several members of that list (including myself) have one or more units. They are interesting, but finding them with the disks in a working state is somewhat uncommon. Fortunately, you can sub in an ST225 or ST251 without any changes to the firmware or boards if you don't happen to have a working TM602S or TM603S handy. > ... and possibly a B-series PET. Over on the right? Could be. Those came out after my PET experience, but the case looks right to me. > Crap, I'm on the wrong side of the country! As am I. We have some old stuff at FreeGeek Columbus, but nothing approaching that quantity or variety. At the moment, we have one SGI O2, a couple of NeXT slabs, an Apple IIe, and quite a bit of miscellaneous flotsam. Like FreeGeek Vancouver, we lack the room to preserve such things indefinitely, but also would like to do something more than shred them at the recycling table. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 13:45:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:45:35 -0600 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912011135j2b857c08gc962d4a1b31352d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380912011101r18a444cfm1ce1012abf25abcc@mail.gmail.com> <4affc5e0912011135j2b857c08gc962d4a1b31352d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912011145l64243a0au42225be360dec44d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Could you have told me this BEFORE I gave mine to Dave Dunfield? :-) > (No don't worry Dave, I don't want it back! :-) Frankly I don't think > they were that rare - maybe they are now. > > I kept the Xebec controller and the 20Meg drive I was using for the > exact purpose you described (my workbench floppy had just enough > drivers on it to load janus.library and then pass control to a > startup-sequence on the HD). Still trying to extract the data off > that... > I never see them on ebay. I think over the last few years, I've seen one. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make them rare. But if you know of another place I can get one, please let me know. :-) There's a lot of other amiga items i'd love to have, but end up going for stupid prices on ebay, or dont show up at all. brian From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 1 13:49:20 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:49:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, John Ball wrote: > If you live in Vancouver you MUST check this out: > > http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction Yikes! If I didn't already have plans I'd be seriously tempted to drive the 6 hours or so to get up there. At the same time I do *NOT* need more junk in my garage. I don't even use the stuff I have, and should be getting rid of it! Zane From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Dec 1 13:55:43 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 12:55:43 -0700 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B1574BF.1040709@rogerwilco.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The backplane is not the serpentine version, when I got it, it had a >> RL01 controller in it (I got two RL01 drives too) which I believe need >> the straight backplane. >> > > That should be the "CD" backplane (can't remember the part number). I > have one like that, with an RLV11 as well. Yes... dual-height cards > just stack down the left edge. Pontus, double check your backplane number to make sure that it truly isn't a serpentine type. If you *do* have a serpentine backplane, and you stack the boards down the AB slots only, you'll have gaps in the grant chain. In my experience DEC labeled the backplanes on the upper side of the backplane sockets, which is visible only if you remove the cage/backplane from the BN-11 box. Here are the four types that I have experience with: An 11/23PLUS in a BN-11 box that has a H9276A backplane. This *is not* serpentine. An 11/23 in a BN11-NC box that has a H9273 backplane. This *is not* serpentine. An 11/23 in an OEM box with a H9275-A backplane. This *is* serpentine. A couple of 11/03s in BA-11M boxes with the H9270 backplane. This *is* serpentine. So, as Ethen, Pete and others have suggested, check everything with the Handbook, and make sure you know which backplane you have. -- Jared From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 1 14:06:16 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:06:16 -0500 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B157738.7050008@atarimuseum.com> Anybody going to this??? I would like to place a bid through someone on a few items if its possible, contact me off-list: curt at atarimuseum.com Thanks Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/1/09, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 13:29, John Ball wrote: >> >>> If you live in Vancouver you MUST check this out: >>> >>> http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction >>> >> I think I see a PET IEEE-488 harddisk in the pictures... >> > > I do, too - over on the left, on top of the PET floppy unit (2040? > 4040?), between the two PETs. > > We've just been discussing D9060 and D9090 drives over on the > cbm-hackers list this week. Several members of that list (including > myself) have one or more units. They are interesting, but finding > them with the disks in a working state is somewhat uncommon. > Fortunately, you can sub in an ST225 or ST251 without any changes to > the firmware or boards if you don't happen to have a working TM602S or > TM603S handy. > > >> ... and possibly a B-series PET. >> > > Over on the right? Could be. Those came out after my PET experience, > but the case looks right to me. > > >> Crap, I'm on the wrong side of the country! >> > > As am I. We have some old stuff at FreeGeek Columbus, but nothing > approaching that quantity or variety. At the moment, we have one SGI > O2, a couple of NeXT slabs, an Apple IIe, and quite a bit of > miscellaneous flotsam. Like FreeGeek Vancouver, we lack the room to > preserve such things indefinitely, but also would like to do something > more than shred them at the recycling table. > > -ethan > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 1 14:15:47 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 15:15:47 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org><5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6759FF3FEB0F44B6851F41EDCC036052@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' > Teo Zenios wrote: >> I was thinking non optical when I wrote that. I bet most CDR/RW burners >> of ZIP drive vintage are recycled by now, yet I still see zip drives all >> over the place (even thrift stores). > > Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in working order? > > As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured) > discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that > drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In some > cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus destroying more > Zip drives, and so on and so on. > > I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less > works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on > something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since I got > my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- still doing > sterling service in my brother's PC). > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ I have quite a few drives (since I collect old mac and beige g3 and B&W units came with them plus some others I got back in the day for the PC) and all of them work. The disks are useful for moving drivers around that normally do not fit onto one floppy if the machine does not have networking at the moment. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 15:09:38 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:09:38 -0300 Subject: Scanning PCB films References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com><4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com><4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <254501ca72cb$fad8f310$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Please let me know what you find; I'm interested in doing this to a few > boards as well. RS274X being a vector format, it's not a trivial problem > to solve. I don't think it is a hard problem to solve, but need someone with balls of steel to taking the problem with own hands :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 15:16:23 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:16:23 -0300 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org><5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <254b01ca72cb$fdc5b2c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in working order? Mine is, and I have some 40-50 disks :) > As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured) > discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that > drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In some > cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus destroying more > Zip drives, and so on and so on. The "click" syndrome :oD > I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less > works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on > something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since I got > my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- still doing > sterling service in my brother's PC). This is a common 5VCC supply, you can supply it with your PC's power supply. When I used that permanently connected to the mac, the mac's power supply feeded the blue pacman... Zip disks are good if you have roland music gear :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 15:13:48 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:13:48 -0300 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380912011101r18a444cfm1ce1012abf25abcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <254601ca72cb$fc64c330$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 Wow, a complete PC-XT that uses the keyboard and video monitor of the Amiga! :oD From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 14:30:18 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:30:18 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <254b01ca72cb$fdc5b2c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org><5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> <254b01ca72cb$fdc5b2c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B157CDA.5070500@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured) >> discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that >> drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In >> some cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus >> destroying more Zip drives, and so on and so on. > > The "click" syndrome :oD That's pretty much a *physical* computer virus, isn't it? Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 14:35:09 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 14:35:09 -0600 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <254601ca72cb$fc64c330$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4affc5e0912011048s9ea16aex1df7db04fbaf251d@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380912011101r18a444cfm1ce1012abf25abcc@mail.gmail.com> <254601ca72cb$fc64c330$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912011235x568fd00bh8adb3de37eaf578b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 >> > > Wow, a complete PC-XT that uses the keyboard and video monitor of the > Amiga! :oD > More cool pictures: http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2440 http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2333 http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2201 http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2227 http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2290 http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2202 brian From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 1 14:38:25 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:38:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: <4B156CAF.4020309@dunnington.plus.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Dec 1, 9 07:21:19 pm" Message-ID: <200912012038.nB1KcPYZ012516@floodgap.com> > > I think I see a PET IEEE-488 harddisk in the pictures... and possibly > > a B-series PET. > > Crap, I'm on the wrong side of the country! > > I'm on the wrong side of a large body of water :-( Alas, I could get there if I could get a week off to drive up and drive back. Obviously that's not going to happen. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Cleanliness is next to impossible. ----------------------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 14:38:27 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 15:38:27 -0500 Subject: Zip drive power supplies (was Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less >> works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money on >> something I'm not going to use... > > This is a common 5VCC supply, you can supply it with your PC's power > supply. I do the opposite - there are many, many Zip power supplies in the thrift stores here, marked at about $1-$2 each. They are +5VDC @ 1A with a standard 2.1mm coax plug, and the newer ones are wee switchers that accept 240-100VAC - I use them to power projects and kits and such, and use them in the US, plus NZ and Europe when I travel. Somewhere in a box, I have a Zip backpack battery - it was meant to plug into the wall to charge, then clip to the Zip drive to power it with your laptop. I used mine to make my SBC6120 into a portable 12-bit computer. To me, the power supplies are much more useful than the drives. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 14:44:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 15:44:55 -0500 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < > pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > >> http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 >> >> Wow, a complete PC-XT that uses the keyboard and video monitor of the >> Amiga! :oD > > More cool pictures: > > http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2440 > http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2333 > http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2201 > http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2227 > http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2290 > http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2202 Very nice. I have a couple of 8-bit and 16-bit Bridgecards, but never ran across a Sidecar (and couldn't afford one when they were new, but didn't really need one then, anyway). I heard that by the A2000-A2286 era, one of the reasons Commodore kept making Bridgecards was for those customers whose employers had a strict "must run MS-DOS" rule for IT Purchasing. I do remember seeing forms in the mid-1980s with a checkbox that indicated if the machine being ordered was "IBM Compatible" - with the implication that you had better be prepared to explain yourself (or be rejected) if you didn't check the box. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 14:56:20 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 14:56:20 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912011256g61f97179jea44f895266c4889@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Very nice. I have a couple of 8-bit and 16-bit Bridgecards, but never > ran across a Sidecar (and couldn't afford one when they were new, but > didn't really need one then, anyway). > I just picked up an A2286 board that I have yet to put into my 2000. The side car is a lot more interesting to me though, because it's an external case that attaches to the main computer and sort of fits the look and feel, like the GVP addons for the amiga 500, the MacCharlie, and the 5161? add-on for the ibm 5160. There's also another case I'm after that I think was a tape drive. It looks like a skinny version of the 5160 case. I heard that by the A2000-A2286 era, one of the reasons Commodore kept > making Bridgecards was for those customers whose employers had a > strict "must run MS-DOS" rule for IT Purchasing. I do remember seeing > forms in the mid-1980s with a checkbox that indicated if the machine > being ordered was "IBM Compatible" - with the implication that you had > better be prepared to explain yourself (or be rejected) if you didn't > check the box. > Sounds like corporate america. brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 15:00:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 21:00:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B144E4F.20604@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 30, 9 10:59:27 pm Message-ID: > > There are several versions of the mouse (different shapes, I think maye= > 2=20 > > and 3 utton versions, and different circuits). But I think they're all=20 > > pretty mcuh compatible. > > The one shown in the 16500B manual looks like someone glued half a=20 > tennis ball to the bottom edge of a cuboid then shoved a cable in the=20 > other end... Very strange. I've certainly seen that sort of HP mouse, I am pretty sure I have one. Whether I have a spare of that design is another matter. But my experience with HP _computers_ is that the more conventional shape of muse behaves the same way, I would guess that's the case on the instruemtns too. [...] > What I need to hunt down now are some replacement machine screws for the=20 > mounting feet. Two of the feet have been removed; it looks like the=20 > machine was dropped at some point in its life, and the mounting screws=20 > have been snapped. On top of that, the square-profile metal tabs that=20 > hold the screws have been split apart by the force of the impact. Ouch. Mu HP9826 arrived with cracks in the casing. The E-bay seller said it happened in transit, I am not sure I believe that. But anyway, I ended up drilling holes and putting self-tappers in to hold some of the cracks together. It doesn't look perfect, but the machine works. Fortunately, although the (thick and solid) plastic case was cracked, the internals -- all the PCBs, the disk drive and even the CRT -- were perfect. It soulds like you've got a similar situation. Case damage, but good electronics. > > So basically, what I've got is a pair of feet, no screws, and the metal=20 > the screws screw into is "gone". It extends further into the mainframe a=20 > bit more and there is some more screwthread, but I'm trying to think of=20 > a solution for the lack of metal around what is the main mounting for=20 > the feet. > > At this point, my two best solutions are: > - Drill the holes out a bit more (to around M5) and have a local=20 > machine shop make up some threaded inserts -- M5 outside, M3.5 tapped=20 If you ask me nicely, I can possibly provide help with doing that. I have taps and dies... > hole inside, possibly flattened on one end so they can be easily screwed=20 > in. Screw in, build up epoxy putty around the side to replace the=20 > missing metal, reinstall mounting feet. > - Same thing without the threaded inserts. Drive a screw into the=20 > hole, build up the putty and leave it to set (~24 hrs). Remove the=20 > screw, then install the foot and reinsert the screw. > > I like #1, it's more effort but likely to produce a stronger result.=20 > What surprises me is that HP only used one M3.5 screw to hold each foot,=20 Are you sure it's M3.5? Have you measured it (and checked the pitch, which IIRC is 0.6mm). On older instruments, HP used UNC screws, and 6-32 UNC (32 tpi) is similar in size to M3.5 (although not identical). (As an aside, the oriignal jackscrews for HPIB cables were 6-32 UNC. Later ones (and all you'll find now) are M3.5, They are not interchangeable, but the M3.5 screw will go into the 6-32 tapped hole and engage by pehaps half a turn). > At this point, I would kill for a drill press, a lathe, tap-and-die set,=20 > some metal rod stock and a good book on metalworking... See above :-) > > The screws are listed in the service manual as "Screw, Machine, M3.5 x=20 > 0.6, 25.4mm_LG (Back Feet)". Torx T15 head (if memory serves; might be=20 OK, they are M3.5, I am suprised... > T10). Naturally the closest I've got is either M3 or M4 and nobody=20 > around here stocks machine screws in small quantities. Where is 'here'? M3.5 threads turun up in 2 main places. One that many classic computer enthusiasts will come across, and the other in just about every house in the UK. The former I've already mentioned (HPIB/GPIB/IEEE-488 cables). The latter is the screws used to fix (UK) light swtiches, sockets, etc to the backboxes. Most electrical wholesalers, some DIY shops, and maybe even Maplin, sell spare (or longer, etc) screws. Yes, I did once use a couple in an emergency to hold an HPIB cable in place. The prolem comes if you want to cut them down. An old trick is to run a nut onto the screw before cutting it, then use it to reform the thread at the cut end by unscrewing it. But M3.5 nuts are much harder to find than screws. Given an M3.5" tap, it's easy to make sumething for this, but the M3.5" tap is not in most sets (I bought them (3 taps) for making HPIB jackposts, they are available). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 15:01:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 21:01:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B14571D.4080906@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 30, 9 11:37:01 pm Message-ID: > Looks like I just need to get my mitts on a bag of 1in-long M3.5 machine=20 > screws and find the pack of epoxy putty that I know is *somewhere*=20 > around here. Might try the local model shop tomorrow, or failing that I=20 Try the electircal wholesalers (if you have nne) -- see my previous message. > need to find =A330 worth of stuff to buy from Farnell... I never have problems finding things I can use from Farnell. The problem is paying for them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 15:07:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 21:07:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 1, 9 10:53:32 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have come across 2 HP-HIL keyoard types. The HP46020 is the older one, > [...] > > The HP46021 is the later one, and claims to e compatible. The PCB in that > [...] > > Then there is at least one more very common HP-HIL keyboard, the HP46030. > I have several of them, they are/were used on the HP Vectra PCs. And they > physically work with HP workstations, but the key codes don't match. Intereasting. I wonder what its ID byte is. Is it similar to the HP120/Hp150 keyboard issue (see a thread I started some months back). Those keyboards are not HP-HIL of course, but they have much the same interface as each other but a totally different matrix layoug. I hacked an HP150 keyboard to use on my HP120... I wonder why HP made an incompatible HP-HIL keyboard for the PC range. Why not just use the standard one? -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Dec 1 15:14:34 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:14:34 -0500 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John wrote: > Sadly, no PDP stuff. :( The SERF sales at UBC were really a goldmine of good minicomputer stuff in my past. And they had a lot of lab equipment too. I'm 3000 miles away now, and see that SERF still exists, but their online presence shows none of their inventory :-(. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 1 15:29:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:29:17 -0800 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> References: , , <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B151A2D.24418.F2C8F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2009 at 19:36, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ah, but how many of those Zip drives are still in working order? Lots. Down at the recycler, they still get 100MB very frequently and someone's always trying to give one away on Freecycle, it seems. > As I recall, the main failure mode was damaged (or badly manufactured) > discs ripping the heads off the mounting arm. Once this happened, that > drive would destroy any disc inserted into it from then onwards. In > some cases, those discs would then become "killer discs" thus > destroying more Zip drives, and so on and so on. The Jaz drives were far worse in this respect. > I've got a ZipPlus and the parallel cable somewhere; it more or less > works, but needs a new power supply. Can't be bothered spending money > on something I'm not going to use... I don't think I've used it since > I got my first CD writer (a Freecom 8x4x32, aka Philips CDD4801 -- > still doing sterling service in my brother's PC). Do what I did with my first parallel-port Zip drive--make an adapter cable that siphons power off the keyboard jack. I used an adapter that came with a (mumble, not Trantor/Adaptec) parallel-to-SCSI controller. The Zip needs just +5. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 16:40:26 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 19:40:26 -0300 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' References: , , <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> <4B151A2D.24418.F2C8F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <260c01ca72d7$e6ccff90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Do what I did with my first parallel-port Zip drive--make an adapter > cable that siphons power off the keyboard jack. I used an adapter > that came with a (mumble, not Trantor/Adaptec) parallel-to-SCSI > controller. The Zip needs just +5. Too little current avaiable, better put a P4 jack on the 5V line of your computer. "better safe than sorry" :o) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 1 16:19:14 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 23:19:14 +0100 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: References: from "ChristianCorti" at Dec 1, 9 10:53:32 am Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: dinsdag 1 december 2009 22:07 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL > keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter > > > > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have come across 2 HP-HIL keyoard types. The HP46020 is > the older > > > one, > > [...] > > > The HP46021 is the later one, and claims to e compatible. > The PCB in > > > that > > [...] > > > > Then there is at least one more very common HP-HIL > keyboard, the HP46030. > > I have several of them, they are/were used on the HP Vectra > PCs. And > > they physically work with HP workstations, but the key > codes don't match. > > Intereasting. I wonder what its ID byte is. > > Is it similar to the HP120/Hp150 keyboard issue (see a thread > I started some months back). Those keyboards are not HP-HIL > of course, but they have much the same interface as each > other but a totally different matrix layoug. I hacked an > HP150 keyboard to use on my HP120... > > I wonder why HP made an incompatible HP-HIL keyboard for the > PC range. > Why not just use the standard one? > > -tony I'm using a HP 46021A for my HP 16500A. The feet for the HP 16500 housing are the standard instrument snap feet from HP/Agilent it should not be very difficult to get them . The differences between the workstation (HP9000) keyboards and early Vectra keyboards are the function keys MSDOS needs different functions as HP-UX or RMB are using. - Rik From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 1 16:10:54 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:10:54 +0000 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B1574BF.1040709@rogerwilco.org> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <4B1574BF.1040709@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B15946E.6070603@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/12/2009 19:55, J Blaser wrote: > Here are the four types that I have experience with: > An 11/23PLUS in a BN-11 box that has a H9276A backplane. This *is not* > serpentine. > An 11/23 in a BN11-NC box that has a H9273 backplane. This *is not* > serpentine. > An 11/23 in an OEM box with a H9275-A backplane. This *is* serpentine. > A couple of 11/03s in BA-11M boxes with the H9270 backplane. This *is* > serpentine. > > So, as Ethen, Pete and others have suggested, check everything with the > Handbook, and make sure you know which backplane you have. If you need more numbers and a little more data, my list of backplanes and chassis is at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 16:30:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 17:30:36 -0500 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B15946E.6070603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <4B1574BF.1040709@rogerwilco.org> <4B15946E.6070603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If you need more numbers and a little more data, my list of backplanes > and chassis is at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis Very nice. Thanks for gathering all that info into one document. It reminds me that I need to check the part numbers in my "Tri-Node" - a CompuServe-built cabinet with *three* independent 9-slot DEC Qbus backplanes, three PSUs, three boot switches, etc. I got it at the curb (totally gutted) about 6 years ago when someone was cleaning out a rack at the Hilliard Data Center that started out as the replacement CompuServe headquarters but became a WorldCom facility after the split. I was contemplating loading it up with three KDF11 boards (since I have those already) and running three different OSes on it simultaneously - RT-11 on one for sure, possibly 2BSD on another, and TBD on the third. I could drop RSX-11 on the last, but ISTR RSX-11 is rather poky on an F-11 (not that RSTS is fast on a small machine). -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 1 16:48:23 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:48:23 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B159D37.2030103@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I never have problems finding things I can use from Farnell. The problem > is paying for them... Too true... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From vonholtspam at yahoo.com Tue Dec 1 14:35:16 2009 From: vonholtspam at yahoo.com (Alexander Herhold) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:35:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: old RTP chassis Message-ID: <314308.82564.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I saw an old post of yours from 2005. Do you still have the RTP chassis? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-January/037895.html Thanks, Alexander From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 1 17:04:18 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:04:18 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> What I need to hunt down now are some replacement machine screws for the=20 >> mounting feet. Two of the feet have been removed; it looks like the=20 >> machine was dropped at some point in its life, and the mounting screws=20 >> have been snapped. On top of that, the square-profile metal tabs that=20 >> hold the screws have been split apart by the force of the impact. > > Ouch. Ouch indeed. I've put some epoxy putty on the damaged mounts and pushed the feet on. In the next 24 hours or so, that epoxy should solidify into more or less the shape it needs to be in. Backing out the screw should form the thread fairly nicely. It won't be pretty, but it'll work. I'll also have to do some panel-beating... the top cover took a bit of a ding where one of the protrusions on the top-right foot hit it. Hence why that foot is now a bit loose. Ugh. A few chunks of scrap wood and a decent-sized hammer should sort that, though. I've done far worse. I work at a photo-lab. The magazines that feed paper into the machine have a metal tube and two plastic rounded nuts to hold the paper reel in place. Some idiot did a paper-change, put the paper onto the metal tube, then dropped the blasted thing on the deck. Dented the tube quite badly. For bonus points, he/she/it started tightening the nut, but didn't get very far. End result: I ended up fixing it with a screwdriver, a hammer and the MDF (?) table. Good fun. Thankfully the thread was ~1.5mm pitch. That screwdriver will never be the same again (though it was rusted to hell anyway). > It soulds like you've got a similar situation. Case damage, but good > electronics. Or the electronics /were/ good until I hosed the System software. Tried to upgrade the OS to v3.14 about an hour ago, now it won't boot off the hard drive. Seems the floppy drive is either shot or very picky as to what sort of discs it'll read. Fun. Anyone care to recommend a good quality brand of 3.5" 1.44MB floppy? >> At this point, my two best solutions are: >> - Drill the holes out a bit more (to around M5) and have a local=20 >> machine shop make up some threaded inserts -- M5 outside, M3.5 tapped=20 > > If you ask me nicely, I can possibly provide help with doing that. I have > taps and dies... The lack of a decent drill press on this end might cause problems. I've got a Dremel in a Wolfcraft stand (which IIRC can be assembled so the drill faces sideways), but I use that mainly for drilling PCBs and doubt it'd put up with me making it drill through the supports. At the very least I'd need to figure out some method of alignment. > Where is 'here'? Leeds. West Yorkshire. "Up North" (somewhat). > Most electrical wholesalers, some DIY shops, and maybe even Maplin, sell > spare (or longer, etc) screws. Yes, I did once use a couple in an > emergency to hold an HPIB cable in place. I spent most of this morning ringing local DIY shops. Gave up after the 4th one. Turns out everyone's got countersunk M3.5x25 screws, but you're basically stuffed if you want pan-head or cheese-head. I've just ordered a bag of 50 from a place called "Precision Technology Supplies". ?3.74 for the screws, ?2.88 post. Listed as "M3.5 x 25 POZI PAN A2 ST/ST" in the catalogue, and should be here tomorrow (or Thursday if Royal Mail decide to be slow). Now back to finding out why the analyser won't boot from floppy... I hope it isn't a broken disc drive, that would be a bit of a problem (though not an unsolvable one: two 34pin IDC crimp-on plugs, some IDC cable, a floppy drive power connector and a bit of soldering). The pinouts are in the Service Manual and it looks like a (fairly) standard 300RPM 3.5in slimline drive. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 17:07:59 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 15:07:59 -0800 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912011507y7e469eddre634b9f1efd338f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > The feet for the HP 16500 housing are the standard instrument snap feet from > HP/Agilent it should not be very difficult to get them . There are the snap on bottom feet and also the screw on rear feet that are in some sense really only feet if you stand it up vertically on end. I assume he is taking about the screw on rear feet here, which can get their mounting screws broken if the mainframe is mishandled or poorly packed for shipping. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 1 17:19:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:19:49 -0800 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <260c01ca72d7$e6ccff90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <260c01ca72d7$e6ccff90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B153415.15443.157F9AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2009 at 19:40, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Too little current avaiable, better put a P4 jack on the 5V line > of your computer. About an amp at +5. Easily obtainable through the standard DIN keyboard connector of a "vintage" system (like the 386 that mine's been attached to since about 1996). And that amp is when it's actually in use, which almost never. If you get nervous, add a fuse in the supply line. --Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Dec 1 17:49:46 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:49:46 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 base Message-ID: <4B15AB9A.8020601@nktelco.net> Does anyone have a base for an ASR-33 that they want to get rid of? Alternatively, is anyone willing to take some photographs of the base so that I can make a reasonably accurate facsimile? I would need 3 images: front, side, rear taken from about the middle of the base from the floor to make scaling easy. -chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 1 17:53:07 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:53:07 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912011507y7e469eddre634b9f1efd338f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90912011507y7e469eddre634b9f1efd338f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B15AC63.5090601@philpem.me.uk> Glen Slick wrote: > There are the snap on bottom feet and also the screw on rear feet that > are in some sense really only feet if you stand it up vertically on > end. I assume he is taking about the screw on rear feet here, which > can get their mounting screws broken if the mainframe is mishandled or > poorly packed for shipping. Yes, I'm talking about the screw-on rear feet. One missing screw, one bent screw (!), and two OK. As far as "poorly packed for shipping" goes, it wasn't packed at all for its last journey. It spent four hours sitting on its side on the back seat of a Toyota Avensis, secured with the seatbelt (much fun!). The boot (=trunk) was full of other "junk". -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 19:13:10 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 17:13:10 -0800 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912011713j365d5ed8q4f5526b1473b6d5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Now back to finding out why the analyser won't boot from floppy... I hope it > isn't a broken disc drive, that would be a bit of a problem (though not an > unsolvable one: two 34pin IDC crimp-on plugs, some IDC cable, a floppy drive > power connector and a bit of soldering). The pinouts are in the Service > Manual and it looks like a (fairly) standard 300RPM 3.5in slimline drive. > What happens when you try to boot from the floppy? I haven't done that in a while, but remember that it takes a surprisingly long time. Have you just tried waiting a few minutes? From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Dec 1 19:33:10 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:33:10 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 base In-Reply-To: <4B15AB9A.8020601@nktelco.net> References: <4B15AB9A.8020601@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4B15C3D6.4070409@rogerwilco.org> Charles H Dickman wrote: > Does anyone have a base for an ASR-33 that they want to get rid of? > > Alternatively, is anyone willing to take some photographs of the base > so that I can make a reasonably accurate facsimile? I would need 3 > images: front, side, rear taken from about the middle of the base from > the floor to make scaling easy. If you don't have luck getting the real thing, I'd be happy to photograph mine. And it would be no problem to measuring off some of the key dimensions, etc. -- Jared From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 1 22:57:50 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:57:50 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B15F3CE.1040603@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I heard that by the A2000-A2286 era, one of the reasons Commodore kept > making Bridgecards was for those customers whose employers had a > strict "must run MS-DOS" rule for IT Purchasing. I do remember seeing > forms in the mid-1980s with a checkbox that indicated if the machine > being ordered was "IBM Compatible" - with the implication that you had > better be prepared to explain yourself (or be rejected) if you didn't > check the box. I swear I remember Lotus 1-2-3 running on the original A1000 at its swanky launch demo in 1985 -- was that software, or a bridgecard? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 23:17:30 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 23:17:30 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B15F3CE.1040603@oldskool.org> References: <4B15F3CE.1040603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912012117u36bd20e1o501c49442ab1dad2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I swear I remember Lotus 1-2-3 running on the original A1000 at its swanky > launch demo in 1985 -- was that software, or a bridgecard? > There was a software-only dos emulator that was frighteningly slow on the 68k. Bridge cards were only for the machines with isa slots like the 2000, 3000, etc. The isa slots were inactive until you plugged in a bridge board. It acted as a bridge between the zorro slots and isa slots, providing power to the isa side. The 1000 didn't have isa slots or internal zorro slots. Just that side connector, which is technically a zorro slot, just like the one on the 500. brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 23:26:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 00:26:48 -0500 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B15F3CE.1040603@oldskool.org> References: <4B15F3CE.1040603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/1/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > I swear I remember Lotus 1-2-3 running on the original A1000 at its > swanky launch demo in 1985 -- was that software, or a bridgecard? I don't think they had the Bridgecard until the A2000 era (no ISA slots to "bridge, especially not in the Zorro-I era). I did find this review from Creative Computing... http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v11n11/92_More_on_Amiga_software_.php My direct involvement with the Amiga wasn't until a year after launch when it was possible to buy A1000s without a bundled analog RGB monitor, and the price for the base machine fell to $850 (making it finally affordable to me at the time). Perhaps someone here was around from day 1 and can speak from personal experience. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 1 23:58:16 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 21:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Dec 2, 9 00:26:48 am" Message-ID: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> > > I swear I remember Lotus 1-2-3 running on the original A1000 at its > > swanky launch demo in 1985 -- was that software, or a bridgecard? > > I don't think they had the Bridgecard until the A2000 era (no ISA > slots to "bridge, especially not in the Zorro-I era). The original Amiga demo in 1985 had a segment where the Amiga was running DOS software. On the screen, it says [sic] Amiga Transformer Copyright 1984,1985 Simile Research Beta Version 3.5 Please insert a DOS diskette in drive A: press RETURN to start the DOS or press ESC to return to the Amiga DOS The operator inserted a floppy, booted the system, and then started Lotus 1-2-3. Speed seemed reasonably competitive to me for 1985. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot trust this technology stuff. -- Ira Oldham ---------------------- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 2 01:56:51 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 07:56:51 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912011713j365d5ed8q4f5526b1473b6d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912011713j365d5ed8q4f5526b1473b6d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B161DC3.3080002@philpem.me.uk> Glen Slick wrote: > What happens when you try to boot from the floppy? I haven't done > that in a while, but remember that it takes a surprisingly long time. > Have you just tried waiting a few minutes? Yeah, I gave up and left it while I made a cup of tea last night -- when I looked at the screen again, it had booted. So about 6-7 minutes to boot from floppy. Wow. No wonder HP gave it a hard drive. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 2 03:06:08 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:06:08 +0100 Subject: Wanted: QBUS Backplane In-Reply-To: <4B14CF33.5080703@thebackend.de> References: <4B14CF33.5080703@thebackend.de> Message-ID: <20091202100608.190df383.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:09:23 +0100 Sebastian Brueckner wrote: > in order to rebuild my LSI-11 System (salvaged from some kind of machine > control system in the scrapyard) I'm looking for a small QBUS backplane > (including the card cage). All I can offer is a bare H9278-A from a dead BA23. (I am located in Germany too. So shipping will be no problem.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 03:49:30 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:49:30 +0100 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B154A4B.5040702@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B154A4B.5040702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <766444380912020149u33a6ec1ehb6cf1e16c86995a@mail.gmail.com> >> ?I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http:// pcb.gpleda.org/, for >> UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the ?background of the board >> layout for tracing purposes. > > ? With **milimetric precision**??? Does it matter? If the PCB layout app displays a grid, just scale the scan until so pins match. Place components, trace the, uh, traces, and back-annotation should net you a schematic, to boot. That would come in handy for redesigning around replacements for discontinued parts. .tsooJ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 2 05:31:01 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 12:31:01 +0100 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B161DC3.3080002@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk><1e1fc3e90912011713j365d5ed8q4f5526b1473b6d5@mail.gmail.com> <4B161DC3.3080002@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <224C44301AED40608D2D5A9C63B7C79E@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philip Pemberton > Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2009 8:57 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL > keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter > > Glen Slick wrote: > > What happens when you try to boot from the floppy? I haven't done > > that in a while, but remember that it takes a surprisingly > long time. > > Have you just tried waiting a few minutes? > > Yeah, I gave up and left it while I made a cup of tea last > night -- when I looked at the screen again, it had booted. > > So about 6-7 minutes to boot from floppy. Wow. No wonder HP > gave it a hard drive. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ Witch software version do you use ? When you download the newest version from http://hammycorp.com/hp16500/ or other sites, and you want to initialize the disks with lifutil keep in mind you have to set the sector size to 1024 bytes. The 16500A doesn't read LIF disc witch are initialized at a sector size of 256 bytes. Lifutil only runs under MSDOS not winxxx. On disc's 5/6 and 6/6 are the system tests located, you can use that to test and verify your system. -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 09:33:26 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:33:26 -0500 Subject: Looking for a specific LED In-Reply-To: <4B1324F0.DCF3653E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> <4B131247.B9C4FDB9@cs.ubc.ca> <691A9B45-9DF0-4B16-8DA4-E6C7D770C4A9@neurotica.com> <4B1324F0.DCF3653E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1146091B-1D23-41CA-8695-8724D375CBE0@neurotica.com> On Nov 29, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> Stamped around the base is "842","M" & "701". >>>> >>>> Monsanto MV2s. Beautiful devices. >>> >>> (Minor correction to my own msg: "1842" instead of "842". >>> Probably the IBM part number.) >>> >>> Are they so unique to id them as MV2s?, I think HP was using a >>> similar package. >> >> I have a handful of MV2s from my childhood days. I've never seen >> another LED quite like them. There wasn't a whole lot of package >> standardization (some, but not much) for LEDs in those days. > > This page suggests they were from HP, the 1842 part of the number > matches. > http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/tubepage.php?item=39&user=0 > http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=525 I agree; that stamped number cannot be a coincidence. > The top contact on the ones I have is the star as shown there, > rather than the > simple circle of the MV2. > Something similar also shows up in the 1976 HP Optoelectronics > databook. Excellent. This suggests that the small handful of these components that I have are in fact a mix of HP 1842-7329 and Monsanto MV2 LEDs! I have about 50/50 with and without that "star" top contact. > The MV2 is further down the page; looks the MV2 is more significant > historically. > Also for the MV2: http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/1960.htm That is a fantastic web site...I lost several hours to it yesterday. Further down that page, the 3L341V (which is almost as aesthetically pleasing to me as the MV2!) is an LED that I have several of; I bought them from a surplus dealer a few years ago. I think I have about twenty of them. They're really great looking LEDs. I also have a few of the Western Electric dual-chip LEDs that are a bit further down. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 09:44:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:44:46 -0500 Subject: vintage components Message-ID: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware of a mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? It's not terribly off-topic here of course, but many people here may not care. And on that note...does anyone know if any manufacturer made 74LS244 (actually any logic family, doesn't have to be LS) in a gold- capped ceramic through-hole DIP package? And if so, would anyone happen to have any? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 2 10:01:46 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:01:46 -0800 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <766444380912020149u33a6ec1ehb6cf1e16c86995a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B154A4B.5040702@bitsavers.org> <766444380912020149u33a6ec1ehb6cf1e16c86995a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B168F6A.9050007@bitsavers.org> Joost van de Griek wrote: >Place components, trace the, uh, traces, and > back-annotation should net you a schematic, to boot. Are there packages that will 'back annotate' without a netlist? I thought they all go from schematic -> netlist -> PC layout. Automatic netlist creation by tracing a PCB would be very useful, even if it couldn't re synthesize a schematic. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 2 10:12:38 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:12:38 +0100 Subject: vintage components In-Reply-To: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> References: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3DAE794E27934F67BC6AD757B78F64B5@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Dave McGuire > Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2009 16:45 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: vintage components > > > This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware > of a mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? > It's not terribly off-topic here of course, but many people > here may not care. > > And on that note...does anyone know if any manufacturer made > 74LS244 (actually any logic family, doesn't have to be LS) in > a gold- capped ceramic through-hole DIP package? And if so, > would anyone happen to have any? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > One of these ? http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3665470756/ Those are made by Philips in Nijmegen (now NXP) 1966-1972 my dad was the production chief back then. He got the box when he left Philips in 1972. The whole FJ series are logic family, if you want more info I have to dig thpough some papers and books. -Rik From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 2 10:22:14 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:22:14 -0500 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> References: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The original Amiga demo in 1985 had a segment where the Amiga was running > DOS software. On the screen, it says [sic] > > Amiga Transformer > Copyright 1984,1985 Simile Research > Beta Version 3.5 > > Please insert a DOS diskette in drive A: > press RETURN to start the DOS > or > press ESC to return to the Amiga DOS > > The operator inserted a floppy, booted the system, and then started > Lotus 1-2-3. Speed seemed reasonably competitive to me for 1985. > Ahh yes, Transformer. I ran that years ago. It was a software-only solution. It wasn't perfect, and yeah, it seemed pretty slow. AMAX-II, which was a Macintosh emulator, was much much better. Keith From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 10:29:37 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 08:29:37 -0800 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <224C44301AED40608D2D5A9C63B7C79E@xp1800> References: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912011713j365d5ed8q4f5526b1473b6d5@mail.gmail.com> <4B161DC3.3080002@philpem.me.uk> <224C44301AED40608D2D5A9C63B7C79E@xp1800> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912020829s12fc4f4eldb7df47e53e4d875@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 3:31 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Witch software version do you use ? > When you download the newest version from http://hammycorp.com/hp16500/ or > other sites, and you want to initialize the disks with lifutil keep in mind > you have to set the sector size to 1024 bytes. He previously said he is upgrading to V3.14 on a B. The floppies for that version are plain 1.44MB MS-DOS format, 4 system file disks and 1 pvtest disk. Once you have the system booted you can also reinitialize the hard drive and download the system files over the GPIB port. For fun I wrote some simple utilities to do that using an NatInst GPIB card and found that to be less painful than waiting for it to read the files from floppy and shufflling floppies. But most people would normally never have a need to reload the system software to the hard drive... From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 10:35:35 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:35:35 +0100 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B168F6A.9050007@bitsavers.org> References: <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B154A4B.5040702@bitsavers.org> <766444380912020149u33a6ec1ehb6cf1e16c86995a@mail.gmail.com> <4B168F6A.9050007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <766444380912020835s316fe055y79971ae4b7c15760@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/2 Al Kossow : > Joost van de Griek wrote: > >> Place components, trace the, uh, traces, and >> back-annotation should net you a schematic, to boot. > > Are there packages that will 'back annotate' without a netlist? > I thought they all go from schematic -> netlist -> PC layout. > Automatic netlist creation by tracing a PCB would be very > useful, even if it couldn't re synthesize a schematic. I don't know, I don't actually use back-annotation, apart from maybe the occasional pin or gate swap. But isn't what I described pretty much what back annotation proclaims to do? If not, al the more reason to off a few marketing pinheads here and there. .tsooJ From marvin at west.net Wed Dec 2 10:37:06 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:37:06 -0800 Subject: vintage components Message-ID: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> From: Dave McGuire > This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware > of a mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? Along the lines of vintage components, has anyone seen a change in the value of vintage equipment when repairs are done with later date code parts? I'm thinking about a friend of mine who had a Corvette where things like the date code on the windshield glass made a difference in the value of the vehicle. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 10:40:07 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:40:07 -0500 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> References: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 12/2/09, Keith Monahan wrote: > Ahh yes, Transformer. I ran that years ago. > > It was a software-only solution. It wasn't perfect, and yeah, it seemed > pretty slow. I think I glanced at it and ran the other way. > AMAX-II, which was a Macintosh emulator, was much much better. *That* I used on a very regular basis - I ended up with the serial-card version of AMax so I could drive an HP LJ4ML directly from the back of the Amiga. I did my GG2 Bus+ disk and box labels on that rig, along with most of my laser-printed correspondence. It turned my A3000/25 into a part-time Mac that saved me money and disk space, but gave me access to better desktop publishing tools than the Amiga options I saw at the time. Not having to emulate the processor architecture is a huge help, of course. What was really slick was Basilisk - I had that running on my Amiga 3000 with networking support - back when the AmigaDOS web browser offerings were somewhat limited, I was running Mosaic for Mac on Basilisk (c. 1995). OTOH, on the same box on the Amiga side, I was serving web pages via the pre-Apache NCSA HTTPd server. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 2 10:46:56 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:46:56 -0800 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <766444380912020835s316fe055y79971ae4b7c15760@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <20d201ca72a7$d3cad230$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B154A4B.5040702@bitsavers.org> <766444380912020149u33a6ec1ehb6cf1e16c86995a@mail.gmail.com> <4B168F6A.9050007@bitsavers.org> <766444380912020835s316fe055y79971ae4b7c15760@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B169A00.6060001@bitsavers.org> > But isn't what I described pretty > much what back annotation proclaims to do? If not, al the more reason > to off a few marketing pinheads here and there. > Back annotation programs update an existing netlist with data as it was changed during PC layout. In tracing out an unknown board, you have nothing to start with, so you'd have to describe each node in the netlist as you trace it. As I said, it would be a very useful program to have, but I don't know of any existing program that automates reverse-engineering of PC boards. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 2 10:51:05 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:51:05 -0800 Subject: vintage components In-Reply-To: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> Message-ID: <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Along the lines of vintage components, has anyone seen a change in the > value of vintage equipment when repairs are done with later date code > parts? > Late 80's Macintosh logic boards are worth more if the electrolytic caps that are leaking acetic acid are removed and the board is cleaned up. I didn't realize how serious a problem this is for late 80's electronics in general. The museum has been removing batteries from artifacts for a while now, but I don't know how we're going to deal with trace rot on all the PCBs with leaking surface mount electrolytic caps. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 2 10:54:41 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:54:41 +0100 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912020829s12fc4f4eldb7df47e53e4d875@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk><1e1fc3e90912011713j365d5ed8q4f5526b1473b6d5@mail.gmail.com><4B161DC3.3080002@philpem.me.uk><224C44301AED40608D2D5A9C63B7C79E@xp1800> <1e1fc3e90912020829s12fc4f4eldb7df47e53e4d875@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2009 17:30 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL > keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 3:31 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > Witch software version do you use ? > > When you download the newest version from > > http://hammycorp.com/hp16500/ or other sites, and you want to > > initialize the disks with lifutil keep in mind you have to > set the sector size to 1024 bytes. > > He previously said he is upgrading to V3.14 on a B. The > floppies for that version are plain 1.44MB MS-DOS format, 4 > system file disks and 1 pvtest disk. > My fault, I was assuming an 16500A because of the header.. Lost track a little ;-) -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 10:58:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:58:11 -0500 Subject: vintage components In-Reply-To: <3DAE794E27934F67BC6AD757B78F64B5@xp1800> References: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> <3DAE794E27934F67BC6AD757B78F64B5@xp1800> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Rik Bos wrote: >> This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware >> of a mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? >> It's not terribly off-topic here of course, but many people >> here may not care. >> >> And on that note...does anyone know if any manufacturer made >> 74LS244 (actually any logic family, doesn't have to be LS) in >> a gold- capped ceramic through-hole DIP package? And if so, >> would anyone happen to have any? > > One of these ? > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3665470756/ Yup, standard gold-capped purple ceramic DIPs. > Those are made by Philips in Nijmegen (now NXP) 1966-1972 my dad > was the > production chief back then. He got the box when he left Philips in > 1972. > The whole FJ series are logic family, if you want more info I have > to dig > thpough some papers and books. Very nice! I'm specifically looking for 74xx244s in that package. I only need a handful. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 2 11:03:31 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: vintage components In-Reply-To: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> References: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware of a > mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? It's not > terribly off-topic here of course, but many people here may not care. While I'm not really interested, especially right now since I have no time for such things, I would argue that this is the perfect place for such discussions. At the same time some kind of tag in the subject to show it is this sort of discussion would be nice. :-) Zane From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 2 11:23:06 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:23:06 +0100 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20091202182306.ab26e991.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:07:24 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know of an automatic tool, but PCB (http:// > pcb.gpleda.org/, for UNIX platforms) can display a PNG file in the > background of the board layout for tracing purposes. There is also KiCad, an other open and free schematics and PCB layout programm. I don't know if it has a background image feature like PCB or other reverse engineering aids. http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/ http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page If you still have the actual _films_ and want to make new PCBs, why can't you just use the existing films? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 2 12:29:22 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:29:22 -0800 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC References: Message-ID: <4B16B203.EA28E620@cs.ubc.ca> "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > > John wrote: > > Sadly, no PDP stuff. :( > > The SERF sales at UBC were really a goldmine of good minicomputer stuff in my past. > > And they had a lot of lab equipment too. > > I'm 3000 miles away now, and see that SERF still exists, but their online presence shows none of their inventory :-(. SERF (Surplus Equipment Recycling Facility) was great if you could self-limit yourself. (I had a friend who couldn't: his house is packed full). I was surprised to see you say it still exists, as to my knowledge it has been defunct for some years now. Did a google and the web site is there (the 2nd hit is for my own web site mentioning an item I picked up there). I don't know what they actually do now, perhaps attempt to match up supply and demand for valuable pieces (notice there is nothing listed under the equipment categories). Again TMK, there is no longer a warehouse that you can wander around to peruse and spot interesting stuff. I got a bunch of stuff from there in it's heyday (late 80's/90's): 60's-era calculators, an analog computer, couple of HP9825s, Cromemco Z2; and I wasn't even a regular. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 2 12:45:38 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:45:38 -0800 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC References: Message-ID: <4B16B5D3.60A348FF@cs.ubc.ca> John Ball wrote: > > If you live in Vancouver you MUST check this out: > > http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/computer_museum_auction > > Almost 120 machines are for sale, including: > ...snip... > > I have seen the stuff with my own eyes and this is not something to miss. > There are some real gems going up for grabs. > Sadly, no PDP stuff. :( Timing is kind of short, but if someone is coming up for this and is interested, I have one or two S100 systems I'd like (or need) to let go. (A couple bucks might be nice, but I know travel expenses would eat into what anyone could justify paying for them). (There is some other stuff I need to divest myself of but I don't know if there is time to sort it all out.) From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 2 12:54:25 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:54:25 +0000 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> * On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 08:51:05AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Late 80's Macintosh logic boards are worth more if the electrolytic caps > that are leaking acetic acid are removed and the board is cleaned up. > > I didn't realize how serious a problem this is for late 80's electronics > in general. The museum has been removing batteries from artifacts for a > while now, but I don't know how we're going to deal with trace rot on all > the PCBs with leaking surface mount electrolytic caps. Indeed, there seems to be a mass die-off of vintage Macintoshes going on right now judging by the buzz on 68K mac enthusiast message boards. My own SE/30 refused to boot about a month ago, showing the classic "Simasimac" zebra-stripe failure. On inspection I found that _every_ surface mount electrolytic cap on the board was leaking. I had to re-cap the entire board -- only 11 caps, but my smd hand soldering skills are just fair to middling. I chose smd tantalum capacitors, the solution used by most of the folks on the boards, and brought it back to life. But this hilights something that's going to be a serious, on-going problem for anyone who has a lot of 1980s gear in his collection (like me, alas) -Seth From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 13:05:41 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:05:41 -0600 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912021105g218f4b40k1054662f11c6a48@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Indeed, there seems to be a mass die-off of vintage Macintoshes going on > right now judging by the buzz on 68K mac enthusiast message boards. My > own SE/30 refused to boot about a month ago, showing the classic > "Simasimac" zebra-stripe failure. On inspection I found that _every_ > surface mount electrolytic cap on the board was leaking. I had to re-cap > the entire board -- only 11 caps, but my smd hand soldering skills are > just fair to middling. I chose smd tantalum capacitors, the solution > used by most of the folks on the boards, and brought it back to life. > But this hilights something that's going to be a serious, on-going > problem for anyone who has a lot of 1980s gear in his collection (like > me, alas) > The amiga 600s and 1200s are dying of the same disease. The older models seem to be ok though. brian From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 2 13:07:14 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:07:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > Indeed, there seems to be a mass die-off of vintage Macintoshes going on > right now judging by the buzz on 68K mac enthusiast message boards. My > own SE/30 refused to boot about a month ago, showing the classic > "Simasimac" zebra-stripe failure. On inspection I found that _every_ > surface mount electrolytic cap on the board was leaking. I had to re-cap > the entire board -- only 11 caps, but my smd hand soldering skills are > just fair to middling. I chose smd tantalum capacitors, the solution > used by most of the folks on the boards, and brought it back to life. > But this hilights something that's going to be a serious, on-going > problem for anyone who has a lot of 1980s gear in his collection (like > me, alas) This is one of my great worries, though I've been thinking of the batteries and not the caps. I finally have my collection out of storage, and into the garage. The problem is, I don't have time to start digging into these machines. My SE/30 would be one of the machines I'm most interested in keeping running. Is this a problem with Commodore computers? I wonder if this is what is wrong with my Amiga 500 (I haven't had time to even look at it). The only 80's computers I've spent time with the past few years are my PDP-11's and my one Commodore 64. I know I need to inspect my Amiga 3000's for leaky batteries. I had to fix that on my Lisa 2/5 when I got it. The sad thing is I *REALLY* do not have time to deal with this, and this is yet another indication that I should get out of the hobby. :-( Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 2 13:09:04 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912021105g218f4b40k1054662f11c6a48@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> <6dbe3c380912021105g218f4b40k1054662f11c6a48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> But this hilights something that's going to be a serious, on-going >> problem for anyone who has a lot of 1980s gear in his collection (like >> me, alas) > > The amiga 600s and 1200s are dying of the same disease. The older models > seem to be ok though. Bleep! And they are 90's tech. Well, both of my A1200's are basically dead. If I was any good at SMT work, I could have cobbled together a working unit about 10 years ago from the pair. Zane From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 13:23:18 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:23:18 -0600 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is this a problem with Commodore computers? Definitely for 600s and 1200s. I wouldn't be surprised if the 500 had the same issue. > I wonder if this is what is > wrong with my Amiga 500 (I haven't had time to even look at it). That could easily be what's wrong. It might just be as simple as reseating the socketed chips though. Ebay is full of 500 motherboards though just in case... for now. I know I need to inspect my Amiga 3000's for leaky batteries. I had to fix > that on my Lisa 2/5 when I got it. > 2000s are notorious for leaky batteries as well. Really, any amiga barrel battery is suspect. The 500+ had one on the motherboard. The 500 had one inside the metal shielding of the trap door memory upgrade iirc. > > The sad thing is I *REALLY* do not have time to deal with this, and this is > yet another indication that I should get out of the hobby. :-( > Batteries I can handle. But leaky surface mount caps scare me to death. I can solder, but not on the new surface-mount stuff. My eyes aren't what they used to be. Maybe I should practice some and invest in a reflow setup. But I don't have enough time either. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 13:54:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:54:03 -0500 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> Late 80's Macintosh logic boards are worth more if the >> electrolytic caps >> that are leaking acetic acid are removed and the board is cleaned up. >> >> I didn't realize how serious a problem this is for late 80's >> electronics >> in general. The museum has been removing batteries from artifacts >> for a >> while now, but I don't know how we're going to deal with trace rot >> on all >> the PCBs with leaking surface mount electrolytic caps. > > Indeed, there seems to be a mass die-off of vintage Macintoshes > going on > right now judging by the buzz on 68K mac enthusiast message boards. My > own SE/30 refused to boot about a month ago, showing the classic > "Simasimac" zebra-stripe failure. On inspection I found that _every_ > surface mount electrolytic cap on the board was leaking. I had to > re-cap > the entire board -- only 11 caps, but my smd hand soldering skills are > just fair to middling. I do surface-mount soldering all the time. I wouldn't mind setting up a little side business doing this type of rework for people. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 12:55:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:55:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Dec 1, 9 11:19:14 pm Message-ID: > The differences between the workstation (HP9000) keyboards and early Vectra > keyboards are the function keys MSDOS needs different functions as HP-UX or > RMB are using. Do the letter keys, etc, send the same keycodes on a 46030 and a 46020? Or are they totally differeent. What keyoard should an HP150-II use (it has an HP-HIL interface)? I thought mine came with a 46020, and it seemed to work correctly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 13:08:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:08:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B15A0F2.6050802@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 1, 9 11:04:18 pm Message-ID: > > If you ask me nicely, I can possibly provide help with doing that. I ha= > ve=20 > > taps and dies... > > The lack of a decent drill press on this end might cause problems. I've=20 > got a Dremel in a Wolfcraft stand (which IIRC can be assembled so the=20 > drill faces sideways), but I use that mainly for drilling PCBs and doubt=20 > it'd put up with me making it drill through the supports. At the very=20 > least I'd need to figure out some method of alignment. If this is the HP cabinet I think it is, then it all comes ap[art ot a 'flat pack' of alloy castings. Whcihj makes working on it a lot easier. A PCB drill may not be powerful anough, but a good DIY-type drill ('good' meaning has fgood bearings) should do it. Alternatively you might consider gettign some metalework tools. You'll not regret it -- the ability to make up aprts, repair things like this, etc, come in very handy. > > > Where is 'here'? > > Leeds. West Yorkshire. "Up North" (somewhat). OK, I know where Leeds is. > > > Most electrical wholesalers, some DIY shops, and maybe even Maplin, sel= > l=20 > > spare (or longer, etc) screws. Yes, I did once use a couple in an=20 > > emergency to hold an HPIB cable in place. > > I spent most of this morning ringing local DIY shops. Gave up after the=20 > 4th one. Turns out everyone's got countersunk M3.5x25 screws, but you're=20 > basically stuffed if you want pan-head or cheese-head. You never specified what head you wanted :-). If you think about the intended use of holding sown light switches, etc, it's ovious why you can only get ones to go in countersunk holes (most of the time they're raised head, not true countersunk head screws). Can you not countersink the holes in the feet? > Now back to finding out why the analyser won't boot from floppy... I=20 > hope it isn't a broken disc drive, that would be a bit of a problem=20 > (though not an unsolvable one: two 34pin IDC crimp-on plugs, some IDC=20 At least it's not the Sony full-height 600rpm one (with a 26 pin connector). I'll say it again -- if you have any HP (or Apricot, etc) hardware that uses these drives, particularly the double-sided ones, take them apart (I have some pictures on flickr that might help) and clean the greas off the eject mechanism. Do it now, before the grease hardens, the mechanism sticks and the top head is ripped off by an ejecting disk. > cable, a floppy drive power connector and a bit of soldering). The=20 > pinouts are in the Service Manual and it looks like a (fairly) standard=20 > 300RPM 3.5in slimline drive. My guess is it has power on the data connector? HP used a DD drive like that in soem of their machines that was a 600 rpm drive. It shares a lot of parts (even one of the ASICs) with an Apple 800K drive. Now how did I find that out... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 13:49:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:49:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B15F3CE.1040603@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 1, 9 10:57:50 pm Message-ID: > > I heard that by the A2000-A2286 era, one of the reasons Commodore kept > > making Bridgecards was for those customers whose employers had a > > strict "must run MS-DOS" rule for IT Purchasing. I do remember seeing > > forms in the mid-1980s with a checkbox that indicated if the machine > > being ordered was "IBM Compatible" - with the implication that you had > > better be prepared to explain yourself (or be rejected) if you didn't > > check the box. At one place I did some work for (late 1980s) it was the reverse. If you wanted to purchase a spacial-purpose computer system as a data logger, instrument controller, or whatever, that was fine. But if it was an IBM compatable, then it had to come from one of a couple of manufacturers tha the company in question had service contracts with. You proably could have ordered an Amiga, but woe betide you if you'd tried to get the MS-DOS bridgeboard. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 2 14:29:03 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:29:03 +0000 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) Message-ID: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> Hi, As some of you may be aware, I managed to hose the OS on my 16500B while trying to upgrade to the latest software. I've now got the analyser booting again, and it seems to be working more or less OK. Unfortunately (for me) it seems my backup (done with Filezilla, i.e. FTP) is totally duff -- apparently I had FZ set to "transfer files with no extension as ASCII", which has naturally hosed just about all the System, Driver and Extension files. Which means I've lost the E2450 Symbol Utility software. Bit of a pain when you want to use the analyser to debug microprocessor code. Seeing as there are a few folk here with 16500B analysers, I was wondering if I could ask a small favour... I need a copy of the Symbol Utility install floppy, HP part number E2450-17504, aka "Symbol Utility for HP16500B/C/CS". It should be either a normal 1.44MB DOS format floppy, or a HP LIF floppy (more likely DOS than LIF). If there's anyone on here with a copy of this disk (possibly stashed away in the manuals folder for their 16500B analyser), could I possibly ask for an image of it? Almost anything is fine; I'd prefer something reasonably standard though -- WinImage .IMA, ImageDisk, or even a raw "dd if=/dev/fd0 of=imagefile" (rawrite) dump. For what it's worth, I had V3.02 installed, but I suspect I might need something a little more recent now the analyser is running the V3.14 operating system. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 2 14:34:46 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 12:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> <6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I wonder if this is what is >> wrong with my Amiga 500 (I haven't had time to even look at it). > > That could easily be what's wrong. It might just be as simple as reseating > the socketed chips though. Ebay is full of 500 motherboards though just in > case... for now. I actually have a spare motherboard in unknown condition. Thanks for the tip. If I have any spare time this winter, the A500 is high on my list of computer projects. Now that we have a house, everything is out of storage and in the garage. I have a small "lab area", and I really want to setup examples of the different families. My real interest is in the Operating Systems, but I like running on real hardware, as emulators don't give the true feel of an OS (things like speed and keyboards). In the case of the A500, I'll be honest, I have some games I want to be able to play again, and the C-64 versions don't cut it! :-) Still my priorities have changed, and the space this stuff takes up could be better used for other things... > 2000s are notorious for leaky batteries as well. Really, any amiga barrel > battery is suspect. The 500+ had one on the motherboard. The 500 had one > inside the metal shielding of the trap door memory upgrade iirc. The A2000's went to another list member when I was running out of storage room. > Batteries I can handle. But leaky surface mount caps scare me to death. I > can solder, but not on the new surface-mount stuff. My eyes aren't what > they used to be. Maybe I should practice some and invest in a reflow > setup. But I don't have enough time either. I might be able to handle surface-mount caps, it's the chips I can't handle. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 15:10:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:10:21 -0500 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> <6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6C5966C3-FC7F-4C3A-B5B3-F7E535378FDB@neurotica.com> On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Batteries I can handle. But leaky surface mount caps scare me to >> death. I >> can solder, but not on the new surface-mount stuff. My eyes >> aren't what >> they used to be. Maybe I should practice some and invest in a reflow >> setup. But I don't have enough time either. > > I might be able to handle surface-mount caps, it's the chips I > can't handle. [raises hand] I can do those.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 2 15:26:50 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:26:50 +0000 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org> <20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com> <6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091202212650.GA22630@loomcom.com> * On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 01:23:18PM -0600, Brian Lanning wrote: > > Batteries I can handle. But leaky surface mount caps scare me to death. I > can solder, but not on the new surface-mount stuff. We're fairly lucky in that leak-prone surface mount caps tend to be pretty large, relatively speaking. The replacement tantalum caps on the SE/30 are therefore enormous in the SMT world: 7.3 mm x 4.3 mm, with very large solder pads. They're relatively easy to handle compared to the dreadful 0805 or, god forbid, 0603 or smaller (1.5 mm x 0.8 mm? I'd go blind!!) So don't let them scare you too much. All you need is a good pair of tweezers to hold them in place, and some liquid or paste flux. I haven't got any special reflow equipment at all -- just a standard through-hole soldering setup -- but I was still able to replace the SMT caps without too much struggle. > brian -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 15:29:40 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:29:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> References: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20091202132817.L93505@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Keith Monahan wrote: > Ahh yes, Transformer. I ran that years ago. > It was a software-only solution. It wasn't perfect, and yeah, it seemed > pretty slow. an elephant flies! and we gripe about speed and payload limits From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 15:33:50 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:33:50 -0500 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <20091202132817.L93505@shell.lmi.net> References: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> <20091202132817.L93505@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Ahh yes, Transformer. I ran that years ago. >> It was a software-only solution. It wasn't perfect, and yeah, it >> seemed >> pretty slow. > > an elephant flies! > and we gripe about speed and payload limits Mt. Dew -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 16:46:58 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:46:58 -0300 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] References: <4B1697B2.1090809@west.net> <4B169AF9.8010107@bitsavers.org><20091202185425.GA21700@loomcom.com><6dbe3c380912021123l7fb3cebbr4e180a2ae60e0f4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01fa01ca73a2$68681bf0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > In the case of the A500, I'll be honest, I have some games I want to be > able > to play again, and the C-64 versions don't cut it! :-) Blood money! :oD (also, don't forget the obrigatory demos: Jesus on e's, Made in Croatia, Technological Death, Digital Dreams, 9 fingers and State of the Art! :oD > I might be able to handle surface-mount caps, it's the chips I can't > handle. This is not so hard. Just a matter of training :) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 16:55:25 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:55:25 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B16F05D.1000308@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Very nice. I have a couple of 8-bit and 16-bit Bridgecards, but never > ran across a Sidecar (and couldn't afford one when they were new, but > didn't really need one then, anyway). Interesting! I've got a Torch Graduate, which is an almost identical concept to attach to an Acorn/BBC micro - keyboard and display is through the host BBC, whilst the Graduate contains the PC CPU, ISA bus, and local floppy controller/drives. So, were there "external box" PC-a-likes for other vintage systems? I know there were some internal boards for various machines... > I heard that by the A2000-A2286 era, one of the reasons Commodore kept > making Bridgecards was for those customers whose employers had a > strict "must run MS-DOS" rule for IT Purchasing. I do remember seeing > forms in the mid-1980s with a checkbox that indicated if the machine > being ordered was "IBM Compatible" - with the implication that you had > better be prepared to explain yourself (or be rejected) if you didn't > check the box. I kind of fell foul of that in speccing out an Amiga-based system for a school art department once; it ticked all the right boxes in terms of capabilities and "doing the job", but it wasn't a PC or a Mac and made the school's IT person too nervous :-) Unfortunately I never thought of seeing if I could get any kind of PC board thrown into the mix! cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 17:03:17 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:03:17 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> References: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B16F235.9050206@gmail.com> Keith Monahan wrote: > Ahh yes, Transformer. I ran that years ago. > > It was a software-only solution. It wasn't perfect, and yeah, it seemed > pretty slow. Rings bells here too - ISTR using it a lot to get graphics files from the Amiga onto FAT-formatted disks (I used to to a lot of artwork on the ol' miggy, but the reprographics place where I got them printed could only take stuff on FAT) The text seems familiar, anyway, and whatever I used was certainly a software-only solution... (it sure was slow, but the fastest PC I'd used at that point was a '286, so it didn't seem disproportionally so!) [aside - dug my ol' A500 out of the attic a couple of years ago and was amazed at how spongy and outright horrible that keyboard was to type on! I really don't know how I ever put up with it] cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 17:17:33 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 15:17:33 -0800 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I'd still rather like a copy of the original HP install floppy... this > approach is quite hackish in my opinion. > The E2450A files used to available on the HP/Agilent website. It was either a .zip of the files, or just all of the plain files. Your "hack" solution was basically what the real install method was. Tree copy all of the files to a floppy, boot the system with the floppy inserted, and then the system software would automatically (or maybe prompt first, I forget) tree copy all of the E2450A files to the system directory on the hard drive. This is the set of the E2450A files that were available at the time I grabbed them from the HP/Agilent website: opt5_032 - HP16500C Symbol Reader V01.02 optc_032 - 166XC/167XA Symbol Reader V02.00 opt_032 - HP16500B Symbol Reader V03.06 messages\default\alloc.ini messages\default\design.ini messages\default\errmsg.ini messages\default\explain.ini messages\default\fatal.ini messages\default\fmgr.ini messages\default\ns.ini messages\default\nsr.ini messages\default\nssrch.ini messages\default\omfchck.ini messages\default\omgr.ini messages\default\readers.ini messages\default\try.ini messages\default\readers\gpa.ini messages\default\readers\omni.ini objects\addr.mod objects\bintree.mod objects\clue.mod objects\instlpk.mod objects\msgcat.mod objects\ns.mod objects\nsaddr.mod objects\nsr.mod objects\nssrch.mod objects\omfchck.mod objects\pk.mod objects\readers.mod objects\strtok.mod objects\symlop.mod objects\addr\lin32.mod objects\omfchck\aout.mod objects\omfchck\elf.mod objects\omfchck\gpa.mod objects\omfchck\ieee695.mod objects\omfchck\omf386.mod objects\omfchck\omf86.mod objects\omfchck\omf96.mod objects\omfchck\ticoff.mod objects\readers\aout.mod objects\readers\elf.mod objects\readers\gpa.mod objects\readers\ieee695.mod objects\readers\omf386.mod objects\readers\omf86.mod objects\readers\omf96.mod objects\readers\omni.mod objects\readers\ticoff.mod From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 17:30:00 2009 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:30:00 -0700 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <7d9403580912021530i29f2e9f4m4646f0584f2a896a@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I would be interested in a copy as well please... Kind regards, Maurice On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Seeing as there are a few folk here with 16500B analysers, I was wondering >> if I could ask a small favour... I need a copy of the Symbol Utility install >> floppy, HP part number E2450-17504, aka "Symbol Utility for HP16500B/C/CS". >> It should be either a normal 1.44MB DOS format floppy, or a HP LIF floppy >> (more likely DOS than LIF). >> > > Hi guys, > > I've managed to reconstruct an "install" floppy from the files on someone > else's HP analyser. Briefly... > > - Format a 1.44MB floppy disk on the "source" analyser > - Copy \SYSTEM\OPT_032 from the hard drive to the floppy > - Also copy \SYSTEM\MESSAGES and \SYSTEM\OBJECTS to the floppy, as > \MESSAGES and \OBJECTS respectively. These are directories; you need to > preserve the directory structure and copy all the files/subdirectories. > - Insert the disk into the "destination" analyser, and flip the power > switch to "ON". > - Wait for the FDD light to go out, then select System -> Symbol Utility. > If you've got Symbol Utility 3.02 you'll be asked if you want to install the > software; version 3.05 doesn't ask, but has an "Install Symbol Utility" > option instead. Basically, click the button if necessary, then confirm that > yes, you really do want to install the Symbol Utility. > > I'd still rather like a copy of the original HP install floppy... this > approach is quite hackish in my opinion. > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > philpem at philpem.me.uk > > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > -- I've clicked for peace! Have you? www.tenmillionclicksforpeace.org/?sid=80760c414LJa5893tG4095162&s=1 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 2 17:47:03 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:47:03 +0000 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B16FC77.70503@philpem.me.uk> Glen Slick wrote: > The E2450A files used to available on the HP/Agilent website. It was > either a .zip of the files, or just all of the plain files. Your > "hack" solution was basically what the real install method was. Tree > copy all of the files to a floppy, boot the system with the floppy > inserted, and then the system software would automatically (or maybe > prompt first, I forget) tree copy all of the E2450A files to the > system directory on the hard drive. Is there any chance you could put these files (or the ZIP) online somewhere (or even just email them to me -- I'm sure I can find some FTP space for them)? I've got versions 3.02 and 3.05 (the analyser is running 3.05), and it'd be nice to get my 16500B analyser running the latest software. Incidentally, I'd rather like to get a copy of the contents of the "/pub/callpub3/ddt" (I think I've got that right) directory from Agilent's FTP server at around the time of the spinoff. As I recall, there were tons of files in there for the various analysers -- there was certainly the Inverse Assembler Toolkit (which I have), and System files for the various analysers. Now that directory just contains stuff for the "latest and greatest" machines... :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Dec 2 18:21:29 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:21:29 -0800 Subject: vintage components In-Reply-To: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> References: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <022f01ca73ae$910a8550$b31f8ff0$@com> On Wednesday, December 02, 2009 at 7:45 AM Dave McGuire said: > This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware > of a mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? > It's not terribly off-topic here of course, but many people here may > not care. I'm not aware of any, but if there is interest I'd be happy to set up a discussion area on the VC Forums. ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 2 21:01:28 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:01:28 -0800 Subject: vintage components References: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B172A08.194E395E@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > This discussion about old LEDs makes me wonder...Is anyone aware > of a mailing list for discussion of vintage electronic components? > It's not terribly off-topic here of course, but many people here may > not care. I certainly like discussing such and in the past have figured that, within reason, discussion of 'digital-related' components was acceptable and would be of interest here. If you want to spend an informal evening reading about early ICs: http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wylie/ICs/monolith.htm Lots of content but the organisation seems to suffers from orphan links and hidden pages. Alternatively: http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wylie/ICs/ From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 2 21:49:59 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:49:59 -0500 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B16F235.9050206@gmail.com> References: <200912020558.nB25wGRP006074@floodgap.com> <4B169436.5000604@verizon.net> <4B16F235.9050206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B173567.1010300@verizon.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > [aside - dug my ol' A500 out of the attic a couple of years ago and was > amazed at how spongy and outright horrible that keyboard was to type on! > I really don't know how I ever put up with it] You know, I've always liked that keyboard. I liked the "soft" touch, and after typing on it for so long, I learned exactly how far I needed to press a key in order for it to register. My first keyboard was a TI-99/4a, and then later a TRS-80 COCO II, so the Amiga keyboard was an upgrade. :) I used that Amiga as a primary machine for a long time. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 2 23:53:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 00:53:00 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0CCC27.4050402@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCC27.4050402@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2009, at 1:18 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Somewhat related to the 10 year rule :) fixing systems, aligning >> drives and >> building NOS z-80, etc. >> >> I would like reccomendations for inexpensive-ish oscilloscopes :) >> >> What sort of bandwidth does one need, are there any materials out >> there for >> someone who has never used one before beyond hooking up 8" drive >> test points >> from a Tandon manual and adjusting the head alignment. > > I have a Tek 2465 I got a few years back off eBay. It's a 300MHz 4 > channel scope, and it's been a great help for debugging. 300MHz is > a bit high, but I think I only paid $300 or so for it, which I > thought was a great deal. Pardon me for showing up late to this particular party. I second this recommendation. I have a 2465A and it has served me well for many years. Also, the 465/475 family are quite nice, and are much cheaper, pure-analog scopes. I used a 475A for quite a while and I liked it a lot. Other nice ones to watch for are 453s. They're rock-solid and dependable, and have all the features you'll need. They can be had very cheaply, and I have docs (op/svc and cal) in PDF format. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From philpem at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 2 13:47:52 2009 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:47:52 +0000 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) Message-ID: <4B16C468.9030401@philpem.me.uk> Hi, As a few of you may be aware, I managed to hose the OS on my 16500B while trying to upgrade to the latest software. I've now got the analyser booting again, and it's picking up the I/O cards correctly. Unfortunately (for me) it seems my backup (done with Filezilla, i.e. FTP) is totally duff -- apparently I had FZ set to "transfer files with no extension as ASCII", which has hosed all the System, Driver and Extension files. Which means I've lost the E2450 Symbol Utility software. Seeing as there are a few folk here with 16500B analysers, I was wondering if I could ask a small favour... I need a copy of the Symbol Utility install floppy, HP part number E2450-17504, aka "Symbol Utility for HP16500B/C/CS". It should be either a normal 1.44MB DOS format floppy, or a HP LIF floppy (more likely DOS than LIF). If there's anyone on here with a copy of this disk (possibly stashed away in the manuals folder for their 16500B analyser), could I possibly ask for an image of it? Almost anything is fine; I'd prefer something reasonably standard though -- WinImage .IMA, ImageDisk, or even a raw "dd if=/dev/fd0 of=imagefile" (rawrite) dump. For what it's worth, I had V3.02 installed, but any version is fine by me. Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From philpem at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 2 15:35:18 2009 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 21:35:18 +0000 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Seeing as there are a few folk here with 16500B analysers, I was > wondering if I could ask a small favour... I need a copy of the Symbol > Utility install floppy, HP part number E2450-17504, aka "Symbol Utility > for HP16500B/C/CS". It should be either a normal 1.44MB DOS format > floppy, or a HP LIF floppy (more likely DOS than LIF). Hi guys, I've managed to reconstruct an "install" floppy from the files on someone else's HP analyser. Briefly... - Format a 1.44MB floppy disk on the "source" analyser - Copy \SYSTEM\OPT_032 from the hard drive to the floppy - Also copy \SYSTEM\MESSAGES and \SYSTEM\OBJECTS to the floppy, as \MESSAGES and \OBJECTS respectively. These are directories; you need to preserve the directory structure and copy all the files/subdirectories. - Insert the disk into the "destination" analyser, and flip the power switch to "ON". - Wait for the FDD light to go out, then select System -> Symbol Utility. If you've got Symbol Utility 3.02 you'll be asked if you want to install the software; version 3.05 doesn't ask, but has an "Install Symbol Utility" option instead. Basically, click the button if necessary, then confirm that yes, you really do want to install the Symbol Utility. I'd still rather like a copy of the original HP install floppy... this approach is quite hackish in my opinion. Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 3 04:21:20 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:21:20 +0100 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5302E37D3EB24290855E44E1C81440A1@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: donderdag 3 december 2009 0:18 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility > (for HP 16500B) > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Philip Pemberton > wrote: > > > > I'd still rather like a copy of the original HP install > floppy... this > > approach is quite hackish in my opinion. > > > > The E2450A files used to available on the HP/Agilent website. > It was either a .zip of the files, or just all of the plain > files. Your "hack" solution was basically what the real > install method was. Tree copy all of the files to a floppy, > boot the system with the floppy inserted, and then the system > software would automatically (or maybe prompt first, I > forget) tree copy all of the E2450A files to the system > directory on the hard drive. > > This is the set of the E2450A files that were available at > the time I grabbed them from the HP/Agilent website: > > opt5_032 - HP16500C Symbol Reader V01.02 > optc_032 - 166XC/167XA Symbol Reader V02.00 > opt_032 - HP16500B Symbol Reader V03.06 > messages\default\alloc.ini > messages\default\design.ini > messages\default\errmsg.ini > messages\default\explain.ini > messages\default\fatal.ini > messages\default\fmgr.ini > messages\default\ns.ini > messages\default\nsr.ini > messages\default\nssrch.ini > messages\default\omfchck.ini > messages\default\omgr.ini > messages\default\readers.ini > messages\default\try.ini > messages\default\readers\gpa.ini > messages\default\readers\omni.ini > objects\addr.mod > objects\bintree.mod > objects\clue.mod > objects\instlpk.mod > objects\msgcat.mod > objects\ns.mod > objects\nsaddr.mod > objects\nsr.mod > objects\nssrch.mod > objects\omfchck.mod > objects\pk.mod > objects\readers.mod > objects\strtok.mod > objects\symlop.mod > objects\addr\lin32.mod > objects\omfchck\aout.mod > objects\omfchck\elf.mod > objects\omfchck\gpa.mod > objects\omfchck\ieee695.mod > objects\omfchck\omf386.mod > objects\omfchck\omf86.mod > objects\omfchck\omf96.mod > objects\omfchck\ticoff.mod > objects\readers\aout.mod > objects\readers\elf.mod > objects\readers\gpa.mod > objects\readers\ieee695.mod > objects\readers\omf386.mod > objects\readers\omf86.mod > objects\readers\omf96.mod > objects\readers\omni.mod > objects\readers\ticoff.mod It's on the site but a bit hided .. ftp.agilent.com/pub/callpub3/ddt/portbls/166xC_CS/SYMBOLS This should be the correct symbol library.. -Rik From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 3 04:36:17 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 10:36:17 +0000 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <5302E37D3EB24290855E44E1C81440A1@xp1800> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk> <4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com> <5302E37D3EB24290855E44E1C81440A1@xp1800> Message-ID: <4B1794A1.8080600@philpem.me.uk> Rik Bos wrote: > It's on the site but a bit hided .. > ftp.agilent.com/pub/callpub3/ddt/portbls/166xC_CS/SYMBOLS > > This should be the correct symbol library.. That's for the 166xC and CS series -- note the "OPTC_032" file in place of "OPT_032"... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 3 04:48:11 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:48:11 +0100 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <4B1794A1.8080600@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk><4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com><5302E37D3EB24290855E44E1C81440A1@xp1800> <4B1794A1.8080600@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: If you read the readme.txt you'll see it's also for the 16500B -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philip Pemberton > Verzonden: donderdag 3 december 2009 11:36 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility > (for HP 16500B) > > Rik Bos wrote: > > It's on the site but a bit hided .. > > ftp.agilent.com/pub/callpub3/ddt/portbls/166xC_CS/SYMBOLS > > > > This should be the correct symbol library.. > > That's for the 166xC and CS series -- note the "OPTC_032" > file in place of "OPT_032"... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 3 05:34:36 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:34:36 +0000 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk><4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com><5302E37D3EB24290855E44E1C81440A1@xp1800> <4B1794A1.8080600@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B17A24C.1080707@philpem.me.uk> Rik Bos wrote: > If you read the readme.txt you'll see it's also for the 16500B I'd argue that the README is probably incorrect, or the files are incomplete -- the E2450A manual (on www.agilent.com -- search for E2450A then select "Manuals and User Guides") lists the files required for each analyser. I haven't tried it, but I'm willing to bet an E2450B disc without OPT_032 won't boot on a 16500B. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 3 06:13:14 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:13:14 +0100 Subject: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility (for HP 16500B) In-Reply-To: <4B17A24C.1080707@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B16CE0F.5080404@philpem.me.uk><4B16DD96.2030609@philpem.me.uk> <1e1fc3e90912021517l916dbe2w34747c6fa2c3f0e1@mail.gmail.com><5302E37D3EB24290855E44E1C81440A1@xp1800> <4B1794A1.8080600@philpem.me.uk> <4B17A24C.1080707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1B71590C9DA743CD9D6964260A9F3556@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philip Pemberton > Verzonden: donderdag 3 december 2009 12:35 > Aan: General at wolf.philpem.me.uk; > Discussion at wolf.philpem.me.uk :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted - copy of HP E2450-17504 Symbol Utility > (for HP 16500B) > > Rik Bos wrote: > > If you read the readme.txt you'll see it's also for the 16500B > > I'd argue that the README is probably incorrect, or the files > are incomplete -- the E2450A manual (on www.agilent.com -- > search for E2450A then select "Manuals and User Guides") > lists the files required for each analyser. > > I haven't tried it, but I'm willing to bet an E2450B disc without > OPT_032 won't boot on a 16500B. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ Don't know, the file list could be incomplete... The only way to check it is by trying to install the files.. Or may be renaming the file (risky I know) may do the trick. On the other hand, you could be lucky when you contact Agilent and they send you the file. Agilent support in the Netherlands was always very helpfull, but that doesn't say anything ofcause about the support in the UK. -Rik From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:57:31 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:57:31 -0500 Subject: vintage components In-Reply-To: <4B172A08.194E395E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <6BB88EE2-F869-4BFB-857C-D152C6CFE841@neurotica.com> <4B172A08.194E395E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I certainly like discussing such and in the past have figured that, within > reason, discussion of 'digital-related' components was acceptable and would be > of interest here. The Tube Collectors Association list deals with tubes, of course (note this is NOT a list for golden ears and snake oil bunch), but we have been very slowly expanding into early semiconductors. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Dec 3 11:47:27 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:47:27 +0000 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working Message-ID: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone want a HP Laserjet III? I've got one sitting on the floor next to me occupying valuable space, which quite frankly needs to go. Last time I checked it was flagging one of the two common Service errors (I think it was Service 50), and it's missing a button off the front panel (the one that goes underneath ON LINE). I've also got a spare toner cartridge (in unknown condition), and possibly a bag of spare parts that were scavenged off another LJ3 (that one had a dead laser scanner). Nuts, bolts, rollers, front panel buttons, that sort of thing. I might also have some modules, e.g. power supply, and almost certainly have a spare LJ3 motherboard that can go as well. If you don't want the full machine, I'm also willing to part it (or the Big Bag O' Spares) out. Let me know what bits you need... Quite frankly I need the space, and don't need the printer (my Kyocera laser speaks HP-PCL and "KPDL" aka PostScript quite fluently). If nothing happens with it "soon", it's getting scavenged then scrapped. Location is Leeds, West Yorkshire. Buyer collects, price is zero, zilch, nada if you take the whole bloody lot off my hands. If I have to get a screwdriver out and package things up to post, it'll be cost of post and packing materials... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 3 13:14:41 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 19:14:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's ( was Re: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components]) In-Reply-To: <01fa01ca73a2$68681bf0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for that. I have already seen State Of The Art and 9 Fingers, but have never heard of the other 3. I'll see if they are on the Amiga Demoscene Archive ( http://ada.untergrund.net/index.php ) and view them tonight :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 2/12/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: From: Alexandre Souza - Listas Subject: Re: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, 2 December, 2009, 22:46 > In the case of the A500, I'll be honest, I have some games I want to be > able > to play again, and the C-64 versions don't cut it! :-) ???Blood money! :oD ???(also, don't forget the obrigatory demos: Jesus on e's, Made in Croatia, Technological Death, Digital Dreams, 9 fingers and State of the Art! :oD > I might be able to handle surface-mount caps, it's the chips I can't > handle. ???This is not so hard. Just a matter of training :) From trag at io.com Thu Dec 3 13:59:47 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:59:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:23:18 -0600 > From: Brian Lanning > Batteries I can handle. But leaky surface mount caps scare me to death. > I can solder, but not on the new surface-mount stuff. My eyes aren't what > they used to be. Maybe I should practice some and invest in a reflow > setup. But I don't have enough time either. The surface mount electrolytics aren't bad at all. You should be able to manage with reading glasses. To remove the old ones, just get two soldering pencils. Heat controlled is nice, but you can use a pair of Radio Shack 15watt grounded pencils (>$10 ea. last time I checked). Apply one pencil to each side of the capacitor until it lifts easily off of the board. Do not pry. Remove the old solder with a bit of desoldering braid. Clean the pads with your favorite solvent(s). Lightly tin one pad. Position the new capacitor on the pads and hold in place by pressing down with a flat blade screwdriver or similar (pencil eraser at end of pencil might work well). Heat the tinned side until the capacitor sinks flat on the pad. Remove heat, then remove screwdriver. Solder the other terminal normally. In the old Macintosh world we've been replacing the SM electrolytics with SM tantalums in hopes that they will last longer. Anyway, this may not be best practice, but it gets the job done for about $20 in equipment (two soldering pencils) and less than $10 in supplies (solder, flux, braid). Jeff Walther From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 3 14:08:15 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:08:15 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> Andrew Burton wrote: > Thanks for that. I have already seen State Of The Art and 9 Fingers, but have never heard of the other 3. I'll see if they are on the Amiga Demoscene Archive ( http://ada.untergrund.net/index.php ) and view them tonight :) For the curious, you can view most popular Amiga demos with author commentary (covers some of the programming tricks and circumstances under how they were created) on the second MindCandy DVD: http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:11:20 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:11:20 -0600 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912031211n3e297daeqe7d76b6fee0c0a2e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: > The surface mount electrolytics aren't bad at all. You should be able to > manage with reading glasses. > (snip) Thanks for the info. My last run-in with surface mount was an IC on a nintendo wii. I guess that's probably a worse case scenario as far as microscopic size is concerned. I'll try it out on a throw-away board first maybe. brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 14:08:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:08:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B16F05D.1000308@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 2, 9 04:55:25 pm Message-ID: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Very nice. I have a couple of 8-bit and 16-bit Bridgecards, but never > > ran across a Sidecar (and couldn't afford one when they were new, but > > didn't really need one then, anyway). > > Interesting! I've got a Torch Graduate, which is an almost identical concept I've got one of those somewhere. From what I rememeber it'll boot normal PC MS-DOS, byt video output is done by having the approriate BIOS interrrupt send stuff back to the Beeb over the 1MHz bus. So PC software that does direct writes to video memory doesn't run on it. I think this is the machine that uses a curious feature of the BBC micro that if NMI (?) is asseted after a hard reset, the Beeb executes a routing in the 1MHz us address space. Meaning the Graduate doesn't need any special ROMs in the BBC micro, the boot ROM is built-in and accessed over the 1MHz bus. > So, were there "external box" PC-a-likes for other vintage systems? I know > there were some internal boards for various machines... HP did a 286-based DIO card for the 9000/200 series. I assume it ran MS-DOS, but probaly not a PC-compatible version (this is a DIO card I've never seen and would like...). Wasn't there a thing cammed MacCharlie? A box that sat alongside a classic Mac and connected to the serial port (?). It had a 5.25" drive built in and would run PC software using the Mac keyaord and display. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:25:22 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:25:22 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: <4B16F05D.1000308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912031225u47b3ade6w491b085a1e0e52fe@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Wasn't there a thing cammed MacCharlie? A box that sat alongside a > classic Mac and connected to the serial port (?). It had a 5.25" drive > built in and would run PC software using the Mac keyaord and display. > Yep. Looked like a classic mac cut in half vertically with two black 5.25" floppy drives mounted sideways in place of the monitor. It was designed to sit right next to the mac. Interestingly, it came with this weird keyboard doc. You plugged the mac keyboard into this thing and it added a numeric key pad and the 2 rows of 5 function keys down the left side just like the 5150/5160 keyboard. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 3 14:38:08 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:38:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <863316.21030.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> People have an irrational fear of surface mount soldering. I know I did at first. If you are a whiz with a pencil iron, you should be able to do surface mount with a little practice. I used to routinely replace 100 pin QFPs here at work with a wide chisel tip soldering iron (about 1/4" long tip). Removing them safely is much harder without a hot air soldering station, but the soldering itself is relatively easy. The trick is using plenty of flux and not too much solder (fine rosin core works best). If the pins aren't too fine a pitch you can simply start with a bead of solder on one row of pins and drag it across all the pins and surface tension will do the rest. Sometimes you get bridging between adjacent pins if you put too much solder on... to handle this I place the chisel across adjacent pins and sweep quickly from the knee of the legs away from the part. You might also need more flux if this happens a lot. If that doesn't work, I use the desoldering station, but I would think solder braid would also work. Again, flux is the main key to doing this right (we use flux pens for this work). Afterwards you can use a brush with a little rubbing alcohol to clean the flux off. I wouldn't recommend this with a non-temp controlled iron, but temp controlled irons are pretty cheap these days. Takes me about 5 minutes or so with the aforementioned 100 pin chip now. two sided parts like caps and resistors are a breeze using the technique you mention. ________________________________ From: Jeff Walther To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 1:59:47 PM Subject: Re: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] > > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:23:18 -0600 > From: Brian Lanning > Batteries I can handle. But leaky surface mount caps scare me to death. > I can solder, but not on the new surface-mount stuff. My eyes aren't what > they used to be. Maybe I should practice some and invest in a reflow > setup. But I don't have enough time either. The surface mount electrolytics aren't bad at all. You should be able to manage with reading glasses. To remove the old ones, just get two soldering pencils. Heat controlled is nice, but you can use a pair of Radio Shack 15watt grounded pencils (>$10 ea. last time I checked). Apply one pencil to each side of the capacitor until it lifts easily off of the board. Do not pry. Remove the old solder with a bit of desoldering braid. Clean the pads with your favorite solvent(s). Lightly tin one pad. Position the new capacitor on the pads and hold in place by pressing down with a flat blade screwdriver or similar (pencil eraser at end of pencil might work well). Heat the tinned side until the capacitor sinks flat on the pad. Remove heat, then remove screwdriver. Solder the other terminal normally. In the old Macintosh world we've been replacing the SM electrolytics with SM tantalums in hopes that they will last longer. Anyway, this may not be best practice, but it gets the job done for about $20 in equipment (two soldering pencils) and less than $10 in supplies (solder, flux, braid). Jeff Walther From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 15:35:21 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:35:21 -0300 Subject: Amiga Demo's References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > For the curious, you can view most popular Amiga demos with author > commentary (covers some of the programming tricks and circumstances under > how they were created) on the second MindCandy DVD: > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ Shameless plug! :oD You just forgot to say this great works has your signature :D From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 3 15:20:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 13:20:42 -0800 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <863316.21030.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>, <863316.21030.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B17BB2A.32764.1219472@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2009 at 12:38, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I used to routinely replace 100 pin QFPs here at work with a wide > chisel tip soldering iron (about 1/4" long tip). Removing them safely > is much harder without a hot air soldering station, but the soldering > itself is relatively easy. Removing even fine-pitch QFPs is easy with Chip Quik or a similar home made fusible alloy. Leaves the pads on the PCB in place and the IC itself reusable. I've even used this to remove J-lead components such as PLCCs that I want to socket (e.g. Flash PROMs) with success. As mentioned, resoldering is easy using a sucker or even braid to clean up any excess. --Chuck From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 3 15:56:21 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:56:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <4B17BB2A.32764.1219472@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <3dfab4b5757321e037e3241e0d1401f1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>, <863316.21030.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B17BB2A.32764.1219472@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <413875.87931.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I hadn't considered Chip Quik. I've never used it myself, but I've heard of it. That might be something good to have at the house. :) ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 3:20:42 PM Subject: Re: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] On 3 Dec 2009 at 12:38, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I used to routinely replace 100 pin QFPs here at work with a wide > chisel tip soldering iron (about 1/4" long tip). Removing them safely > is much harder without a hot air soldering station, but the soldering > itself is relatively easy. Removing even fine-pitch QFPs is easy with Chip Quik or a similar home made fusible alloy. Leaves the pads on the PCB in place and the IC itself reusable. I've even used this to remove J-lead components such as PLCCs that I want to socket (e.g. Flash PROMs) with success. As mentioned, resoldering is easy using a sucker or even braid to clean up any excess. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 3 16:14:28 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:14:28 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> For the curious, you can view most popular Amiga demos with author >> commentary (covers some of the programming tricks and circumstances >> under how they were created) on the second MindCandy DVD: >> http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > > Shameless plug! :oD You just forgot to say this great works has your > signature :D Didn't want to be seen as spamming the list :-) even though I think I've only mentioned it once in two years. Can never be too safe! As long as the cat's out of the bag, I want to say that the DVD is "purist-safe". I used real Amiga hardware to make the DVD, going so far as to purchase a broadcast scan converter, use the raw RGB output of all Amigas, calibrating levels along the way. Any noise left over as part of the process was corrected digitally in 10-bit space. Since most of the footage was PAL, I converted to NTSC using motion synthesis avisynth scripts that generated new frames based on inbetweens (ie. no stupid frame blending or duplication) and cleaned up conversion errors by hand. I'm really proud of the work and I know it would stand up to the scrutiny of most people here on the list. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 16:27:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:27:05 -0500 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/3/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > As long as the cat's out of the bag, I want to say that the DVD is > "purist-safe". I used real Amiga hardware to make the DVD, going so far > as to purchase a broadcast scan converter, use the raw RGB output of all > Amigas, calibrating levels along the way... It looks interesting, and I note that even though I'm a long-time Amiga owner (1986), there are demos on that list that I myself can't run because it's on stuff I don't happen to own. I'm very tempted to pick one up now. -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Dec 3 16:38:49 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:38:49 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> > Sorry for that. Your written English is quite good, but I understand > that indirect and conditional expressions in English can be hard to > untangle, especially for non-native speakers/readers. No matter, thanks for clarifying :) I've gone back to my workshop and done the following. 1. Verifying the backplane, I have a H9273 in a BA-11N with a H786 PSU (Not a serpentine ) 2. Reseated the cards without spaces. Now it looks like this: A B C D |--CPU--| (M8186) |--MEM--| (M8044) |--SLU--| (M8043) blank . . . |------BDV11-----| (M8012) 3.Checked the console cable pinout, it follows the description in my "Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook" 4.Checked the jumpers on CPU, MEM and SLU board. I _think_ they are set sanely (mostly default settings) 5.Swapped memory and SLU for spare cards. 6.Swapped CPU for an LSI-11 (M7270) 7.Tested two know good terminals(vt125 and vt320), with various baud rates(although I know it is set to 9600) 8.Check voltages under load, on the BDV11. +5 is 5.06 and +12 is 12.11 9.Tested without BDV11 inserted. Still, no output on the terminal (plugged into the console port, J3 far left on the DLV11). I'm somewhat confused about the BDV11 diagnostics. Under what conditions are they run? If I start the machine (or reset it) with the halt switch down all leads will be on, if I start (or reset) with the halt switch up (enabled?) the leads will blink in a certain pattern and end up in the "waiting for console input" state. I thought that starting with the halt switch up would put me in ODT right away (given the boot mode configured on the CPU card). Phew, sorry for a lengthy post about such a simple machine, I would like to get it going so I can motivate the floorspace it occupies :) And thanks to all who answered on and off-list. Kind Regards, Pontus. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 3 17:16:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:16:04 -0800 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <413875.87931.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <4B17BB2A.32764.1219472@cclist.sydex.com>, <413875.87931.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B17D634.32224.18B3508@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2009 at 13:56, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I hadn't considered Chip Quik. I've never used it myself, but I've > heard of it. That might be something good to have at the house. :) I buy an ingot of low-temp Cerrobend 158 (the least expensive of the Cerro alloys) and use a coarse rasp to create a powder with it. Pack it in around the component pins, apply heat with a PAR-38 incandescent, and the solder combines with the alloy and the chip floats off the PCB. Clean up with an old toothbrush. Discard the cerro-solder mixture as you would any hazardous metal material. (e.g. Sn-Pb solder). Cerrobend 158 (Wood's metal) does contain some cadmium, so take appropriate precautions (I'm less concerned about metallic Cadmium than I am about Cadmium salts or organic compounds). There are other (and lower-melting) alloys, but they're much more expensive. I don't know what the alloy in Chip Quik is. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 17:25:34 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:25:34 -0500 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <4B17D634.32224.18B3508@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B17BB2A.32764.1219472@cclist.sydex.com> <413875.87931.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B17D634.32224.18B3508@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/3/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know what the alloy in Chip Quik is. I have a snippet of it - AFAIK, it's a Tin-Indium alloy with a melting point around 300-350F - details are in the literature. The Indium makes it somewhat expensive, but it's fun stuff. I have no direct experience with Wood's Metal, but I've thought about working with Field's Metal (another Indium alloy) for some low-temp extrusion experiments (RepRap). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 3 18:17:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:17:14 -0800 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: References: , <4B17D634.32224.18B3508@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B17E48A.30087.1C3322A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2009 at 18:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/3/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I don't know what the alloy in Chip Quik is. > > I have a snippet of it - AFAIK, it's a Tin-Indium alloy with a melting > point around 300-350F - details are in the literature. I think you may have converted Fahrenheit to Fahrenheit, Ethan. The literature that I find: http://www.emulation.com/046/ Says that CQ melts at 136F. MSDS says that it's a tin-lead-indium alloy. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 3 18:39:23 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:39:23 +0000 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/12/2009 22:38, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I've gone back to my workshop and done the following. > > 1. Verifying the backplane, I have a H9273 in a BA-11N with a H786 PSU > (Not a serpentine ) > 2. Reseated the cards without spaces. Now it looks like this: > > A B C D > |--CPU--| (M8186) > |--MEM--| (M8044) > |--SLU--| (M8043) > blank . > . > . > |------BDV11-----| (M8012) That should be fine. > 3.Checked the console cable pinout, it follows the description in my > "Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook" > 4.Checked the jumpers on CPU, MEM and SLU board. I _think_ they are set > sanely (mostly default settings) > 5.Swapped memory and SLU for spare cards. > 6.Swapped CPU for an LSI-11 (M7270) > 7.Tested two know good terminals(vt125 and vt320), with various baud > rates(although I know it is set to 9600) > 8.Check voltages under load, on the BDV11. +5 is 5.06 and +12 is 12.11 > 9.Tested without BDV11 inserted. > > Still, no output on the terminal (plugged into the console port, J3 far > left on the DLV11). Then, assuming the cable really is correct (have you tried swapping Tx and Rx?), is plugged in to the correct port on the DLV11-J, and the baud rate is sensible or close to correct, either: -- the cable has a broken wire or a short -- the DLV11-J has a blown RS232 transmitter IC (unlikely, if you've tried two of them) -- port 3 isn't actually set up as a console port. It's also possible you have a damaged backplane preventing the DLV11-J from responding, but since the BDV11 "does things" (to use a technical description :-)) that's not plausible. Check the C1 and C2 jumpers on the DLV11-J. If you hold it component-side up with the SLU connectors at the top, they're at the lower left, just below the address jumpers. They must both have a link from X (the pin nearest the middle of the PCB) to 1 (the centre pin of the three). Any other setting will prevent port 3 operating as a console. Also, the base address of the DLV11-J has to be one of 176500 (the standard base address) or 176540 or 177500, otherwise even setting C1 and C2 won't work. > I'm somewhat confused about the BDV11 diagnostics. Under what conditions > are they run? If I start the machine (or reset it) with the halt switch > down all leads will be on, if I start (or reset) with the halt switch up > (enabled?) the leads will blink in a certain pattern and end up in the > "waiting for console input" state. What you describe is exactly what you should expect. With the HALT switch up, booting the machine causes the processor to behave according to the boot mode set on its jumpers, which is commonly to start execution at the standard bootstrap address of 173000. That executes the diagnostic code in the BDV11, which (with its normal settings) does some processor and memory tests, turning LEDs off as it completes each test and sizes the memory, sends a prompt to the console ("XXSTART?", where XX is the memory size) and then waits for you to type either "Y" or a 2-character device code. With the HALT switch down, the CPU enters the halted state, without executing any of the code in the BDV11 ROMs, so all the BDV11 LEDs remain on. I thought that starting with the halt > switch up would put me in ODT right away (given the boot mode configured > on the CPU card). It will indeed do that. But you're not getting any serial data to the console terminal so you don't see that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 18:56:45 2009 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 19:56:45 -0500 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280433391656 I am selling it, and classiccmp members enjoy a discount if you win the auction. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 19:39:09 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:39:09 -0800 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280433391656 > I am selling it, and classiccmp members enjoy a discount if you win the > auction. The posting implies that there might or might not be an OS installed on it... and it would help if there was more information or pictures about the machine. For example, what connectors are on the back of the system? Looks intriguing, though... Mark From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 19:39:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:39:31 -0500 Subject: Leaky caps [Was: Re: vintage components] In-Reply-To: <4B17E48A.30087.1C3322A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B17D634.32224.18B3508@cclist.sydex.com> <4B17E48A.30087.1C3322A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/3/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Dec 2009 at 18:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> I have a snippet of it - AFAIK, it's a Tin-Indium alloy with a melting >> point around 300-350F - details are in the literature. > > I think you may have converted Fahrenheit to Fahrenheit, Ethan. The > literature that I find: > > http://www.emulation.com/046/ > > Says that CQ melts at 136F. MSDS says that it's a tin-lead-indium > alloy. Wow... OK... don't use my number for the melting point. Perhaps I was thinking of where to set the temp on the iron to get the molten CQ to mingle with the underlying SnPb solder. -ethan From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 19:41:13 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:41:13 -0800 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM, 9000 VAX wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280433391656 >> I am selling it, and classiccmp members enjoy a discount if you win the >> auction. > > The posting implies that there might or might not be an OS installed > on it... and it would help if there was more information or pictures > about the machine. ?For example, what connectors are on the back of > the system? > > Looks intriguing, though... > > Mark Ok, I'm embarrassed... the auction does point to more photos. My bad. :) Mark From scheefj at netscape.net Thu Dec 3 21:35:11 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:35:11 -0500 Subject: Ancient 3com switch In-Reply-To: <20091127153119.GB32134@chalkfarm.man1.poggs.net> References: <67abbca30911241133t6e9d4dedq3e3b63438f9fe823@mail.gmail.com> <20091127153119.GB32134@chalkfarm.man1.poggs.net> Message-ID: <4B18836F.8040808@netscape.net> Mark, I believe if you connect a terminal (or something pretending to be a terminal) to the serial port on the management module, you will be able to reset it to factory defaults during the boot process. Start with 9600/8/n/1 and increase speed until the terminal works. Every switch I've ever seen works this way. That 3COM switch supports multiple protocols and should work well in a vintage network - at least I hope it does when I have time to play with mine again. Jim Peter Hicks wrote: > Hi Mark > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 02:33:02PM -0500, Mark Kahrs wrote: > > > >> I don't know if the 10 year rule applies here, but I have a old 3com >> switch (3c3500) that I'd like to use. Problem is that the previous >> administrator was competent and changed all the passwords. So, how should >> I reset this unit? Mind you, there is a socketed flash SIMM >> ... Any ideas? There's also a bad SRAM chip, but that's another >> kettle of fish. >> > > Is it a CoreBuilder 3500? IIRC, there was a backdoor password that gave you > a level of access above the normal. > > I can't remember what it is at the moment, but I will have a dig around and > see if I still have the old email. > > Regards, > > > Peter > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 3 21:35:27 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:35:27 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B18837F.6000709@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > It looks interesting, and I note that even though I'm a long-time > Amiga owner (1986), there are demos on that list that I myself can't > run because it's on stuff I don't happen to own. A friend donated a modded A500 with a toggle switch that would switch between 512fast/512chip and 1mbchip which I needed to get two demos running. I also used an A3000 and an A4000 both with and without an '060 accelerator. The A4000 eliminated the need for the A1200 (although I have one of those as well). > I'm very tempted to pick one up now. The NTSC copies are almost gone if not already gone, so you should move now as we're not repressing any. The PAL stuff, which is slightly higher quality anyway, we have some left. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 22:32:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 23:32:49 -0500 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B18837F.6000709@oldskool.org> References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> <4B18837F.6000709@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/3/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > A friend donated a modded A500 with a toggle switch that would switch > between 512fast/512chip and 1mbchip which I needed to get two demos > running. I also used an A3000 and an A4000 both with and without an > '060 accelerator. The A4000 eliminated the need for the A1200 (although > I have one of those as well). I have everything on your demo list up to, but not including the '060 and the PPC (but my A4000 is my only AGA machine - well... that and a CD32 + SX1 expander). I know exactly where my 9 Fingers disks are (1m to my right), but the rest I'd have to go burn to real media, unpack old machines, etc. Well... and go fetch the A1000 since it's out at my farm, and so on... >> I'm very tempted to pick one up now. > > The NTSC copies are almost gone if not already gone, so you should move > now as we're not repressing any. The PAL stuff, which is slightly > higher quality anyway, we have some left. Hmm... retail impulse building... Thanks, -ethan From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Dec 3 23:51:40 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:51:40 -0800 Subject: PC-compatible addons (was Re: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC)) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912031225u47b3ade6w491b085a1e0e52fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B16F05D.1000308@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380912031225u47b3ade6w491b085a1e0e52fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B18A36C.5030601@mail.msu.edu> There was a 386 PC-compatible card for the Symbolics 3640/45/70/75 series Lisp machines (no, really). http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/3600/386coproc_3789-2.html I'd love to get my hands on one (I guess I'd need an LBUS 'bolix first...), though I'd be willing to bet the software to drive it is nigh unobtanium at this point. I have an Orange386 in my IIfx (along with a Radius Rocket II)... it's like having a PC and an extra Mac, inside a Mac... at the same time. Why? Because I can. - Josh Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Wasn't there a thing cammed MacCharlie? A box that sat alongside a >> classic Mac and connected to the serial port (?). It had a 5.25" drive >> built in and would run PC software using the Mac keyaord and display. >> >> > > Yep. Looked like a classic mac cut in half vertically with two black 5.25" > floppy drives mounted sideways in place of the monitor. It was designed to > sit right next to the mac. Interestingly, it came with this weird keyboard > doc. You plugged the mac keyboard into this thing and it added a numeric > key pad and the 2 rows of 5 function keys down the left side just like the > 5150/5160 keyboard. > > brian > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 4 00:11:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:11:11 -0800 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <20091129141631.V61165@shell.lmi.net> References: <01CA7114.C1F00E20@MSE_D03>, <20091129141631.V61165@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B18377F.14843.30742BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > How about their "Jaz" drives? > their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was administered > DURING manufacturing. Remember in the late 90's how Iomega stock zoomed up to about $80 a share with no one offering any logical explanation? Then it dropped like a rock about as fast. One of the first "pump and dumps". I'm surprised that the company survived it. Of course, I wasn't that much smarter--I fell for the hype by Lernout and Hauspie. Fortunately, they hit my price target and I got out before all hell broke loose. --Chuck (Who still has a few new Zip and Jaz drives that he lacks the nerve to use for anything meaningful) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 4 01:46:46 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 23:46:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC-compatible addons (was Re: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC)) In-Reply-To: <4B18A36C.5030601@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Dec 3, 9 09:51:40 pm" Message-ID: <200912040746.nB47kkps016266@floodgap.com> > There was a 386 PC-compatible card for the Symbolics 3640/45/70/75 > series Lisp machines (no, really). > > http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/3600/386coproc_3789-2.html > > I'd love to get my hands on one (I guess I'd need an LBUS 'bolix > first...), though I'd be willing to bet the software to drive it is nigh > unobtanium at this point. "It is not you I desire / but your Lisp machine" -- Red Martian (smj) > I have an Orange386 in my IIfx (along with a Radius Rocket II)... it's > like having a PC and an extra Mac, inside a Mac... at the same time. > Why? Because I can. I love the Mac PC cards, especially the Orange Micros, but we talked about those at length pretty recently. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- California, land of cereal: some fruits, nuts, and a lot of flakes. -------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 05:53:47 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:53:47 -0300 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay References: Message-ID: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >Ok, I'm embarrassed... the auction does point to more photos. My bad. :) Where?! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 05:11:37 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:37 +0000 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <575131af0912040311p7a99ea27lb4aa298c17203f01@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Ok, I'm embarrassed... the auction does point to more photos. ?My bad. :) > > ? Where?! > It is pretty clear. In the very 1st line of text in the description, it says: www.wintersweet.com/temp/Vitek.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 4 05:52:21 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:52:21 +0100 Subject: Pinging Philipp Hachtmann Message-ID: <1b823ef960eccafc784fa9c4cc70b319.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Philipp, please contact me, I have several items ready for you. Regards, Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 07:13:01 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:13:01 -0300 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay References: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <575131af0912040311p7a99ea27lb4aa298c17203f01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ac801ca74e3$d05351c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Ok, I'm embarrassed... the auction does point to more photos. My bad. :) > > Where?! > It is pretty clear. In the very 1st line of text in the description, it says: www.wintersweet.com/temp/Vitek.html ============= I'm getting dumber every day... :o( From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 4 06:52:08 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:52:08 -0500 Subject: PC-compatible addons (was Re: Amiga Sidecar) now Lispm 386 cards In-Reply-To: <4B18A36C.5030601@mail.msu.edu> (sfid-20091204_005357_592417_CD7D2C78) References: <4B16F05D.1000308@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380912031225u47b3ade6w491b085a1e0e52fe@mail.gmail.com> <4B18A36C.5030601@mail.msu.edu> (sfid-20091204_005357_592417_CD7D2C78) Message-ID: <4B1905F8.2000602@heeltoe.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > There was a 386 PC-compatible card for the Symbolics 3640/45/70/75 > series Lisp machines (no, really). > > http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/3600/386coproc_3789-2.html > > I'd love to get my hands on one (I guess I'd need an LBUS 'bolix > first...), though I'd be willing to bet the software to drive it is > nigh unobtanium at this point. Hmm. I can ask. I had heard about that but had forgotten the part about being able to package up a 386 app. Something in my brain is saying there is slightly more to that story. I think I worked with a few people who worked on that, back in the day. The ownership of all of Symbolics software has moved out of probate and is now in the hands of one (thankfully rational) person. He plans to allow it to be licensed for a small fee (naturally I am lobbying for a free hobbiest license, but we'll see). If I can I'll see if there is any 386 board work in there. That would be cool to bring back to life. -brad From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 06:52:12 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:52:12 -0600 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <0ac801ca74e3$d05351c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <575131af0912040311p7a99ea27lb4aa298c17203f01@mail.gmail.com> <0ac801ca74e3$d05351c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912040452l4ecf7093h6e472a7f7cbb026c@mail.gmail.com> What's DS1? Run Level? brian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 07:54:22 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:54:22 -0600 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912040452l4ecf7093h6e472a7f7cbb026c@mail.gmail.com> References: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <575131af0912040311p7a99ea27lb4aa298c17203f01@mail.gmail.com> <0ac801ca74e3$d05351c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380912040452l4ecf7093h6e472a7f7cbb026c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B19148E.2070907@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > What's DS1? Run Level? Probably "diagnostic status"... I've seen it before on various old UNIX hardware. Looks like a pretty sweet box, even if it is rather boring from the outside :-) Battery that size suggests it's got some standby capability. Wonder what the bus is? Thought it might be STE, but it looks like there's only two rows of pins and IIRC STE was three (albeit with the middle row missing). Looks to all be SCSI, too, so there's a chance the hard disk is still good - and a chance the fs could be mounted via a Linux box and the password reset/cracked. Whether it still *has* an intact OS is another matter. Console... hmm, my NCR Tower had the main console on port 1; port 0 was for remote diags - perhaps this does something similar. Or it's just using an oddball pinout, or the tested terminal's settings were just wrong... "early unix computer" makes me smile - I think I see some 1988 and 1989 date codes on those chips (which seems a couple of years too late for a 68010-based UNIX crate). It's a good ten years too late to be "early" :-) (but I really like UNIX boxen from that sort of era - old enough to still be interesting, new enough to run at a reasonable rate) Unfortunately the run-up to Christmas is not a good time for me to be buying vintage crap ;) If it were after tax season I'd be tempted to give it a shot, I think... cheers Jules From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 4 09:10:32 2009 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:10:32 +0100 Subject: Looking for mirror site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B192668.7040606@xs4all.nl> Hi, Since some time the only mirror of my site is gone, so all scanned material and some additional info are only present (as a set) via my local site. This site resides on cheap consumer grade quality hardware, so is not very reliable. So if anyone want to mirror it, I would be grateful. The site contains information on a limited set of computers, like DAI, Epson, some obscure DEC, etc. The url is http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/. A list of the scanned documentation is at http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/virtlibrary.html. Please contact me before starting copying; - the site is at the wrong side of an ADSL line, and contains mirrors of other sites (in http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/mirrors). Also it _contains_copyrighted_material_ (but of vintage or cctech interest). Fred Jan From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 4 09:51:59 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:51:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <0ac801ca74e3$d05351c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Dec 4, 9 10:13:01 am" Message-ID: <200912041551.nB4FpxNX010458@floodgap.com> > > > Ok, I'm embarrassed... the auction does point to more photos. My bad. :) > > > > Where?! > > It is pretty clear. In the very 1st line of text in the description, it > says: > www.wintersweet.com/temp/Vitek.html Vitek Systems had sounded really familiar to me because I think I encountered one at Salk that got replaced with a Bio-Rad. It was an automated testing system. I don't know anything more about it, but here is an altlaw case involving Vitek vs Abbott: http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/472761 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From jws at jwsss.com Fri Dec 4 07:41:42 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:41:42 -0800 Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912040452l4ecf7093h6e472a7f7cbb026c@mail.gmail.com> References: <0a9001ca74d9$2e332730$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <575131af0912040311p7a99ea27lb4aa298c17203f01@mail.gmail.com> <0ac801ca74e3$d05351c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380912040452l4ecf7093h6e472a7f7cbb026c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B191196.5010505@jwsss.com> I suspect that it may be a firmware related number to diagnose whether the thing is doing anything. I wonder if it changes as the hardware is running. If it is unix system it may be slow enough that it takes a considerable time to boot up. The outfit is still listed as a Hazelwood, Mo. corporation at the same address. One might call and inquire about this system to see if some old timer knows anything about it. Here is a contact number for them: http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=414763 Biomerieux Vitek Inc Address: 595 Anglum Rd Hazelwood, MO, 63042-2320 Business Activity: Manufacturer / Exporter Phone: 314-506-8500 Toll Free: 800-638-4835 Web site now resolves to: http://www.biomerieux.com/servlet/srt/bio/portail/home They do have a job posting for Director of mfg, engineering & maintainence on the Biomeriuex site for Hazelwood, Mo. Brian Lanning wrote: > What's DS1? Run Level? > > brian > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 11:17:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:17:57 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B194445.7000802@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Very nice. I have a couple of 8-bit and 16-bit Bridgecards, but never >>> ran across a Sidecar (and couldn't afford one when they were new, but >>> didn't really need one then, anyway). >> Interesting! I've got a Torch Graduate, which is an almost identical concept > > I've got one of those somewhere. From what I rememeber it'll boot normal > PC MS-DOS, byt video output is done by having the approriate BIOS > interrrupt send stuff back to the Beeb over the 1MHz bus. So PC software > that does direct writes to video memory doesn't run on it. Yep, that would make sense... > I think this is the machine that uses a curious feature of the BBC micro > that if NMI (?) is asseted after a hard reset, the Beeb executes a > routing in the 1MHz us address space. Meaning the Graduate doesn't need > any special ROMs in the BBC micro, the boot ROM is built-in and accessed > over the 1MHz bus. That sounds right. It was a bit unusual in that it was an aux processor but it connected to the 1MHz bus rather than the Tube - I'm not sure if the ability to not then need ROMs on the BBC side was the logic for that, or if they just decided that the I/O requirements were good enough (I suppose using the 1MHz side of things meant that they didn't have to either mimic the Tube ULA or try to licence its use from Acorn, either) >> So, were there "external box" PC-a-likes for other vintage systems? I know >> there were some internal boards for various machines... > > HP did a 286-based DIO card for the 9000/200 series. I assume it ran > MS-DOS, but probaly not a PC-compatible version (this is a DIO card I've > never seen and would like...). Ahh, that doesn't count, though :-) I was curious about "external boxes" rather than plug-in cards (so the MacCharlie does count - turns out there's a wikipedia* entry for it too. Interesting beast, not something I'd heard of before) * except that the article uses the term 'CPU' to mean the entire Mac, which always makes me grind my teeth! cheers Jules From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 4 12:11:39 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:11:39 -0800 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05A520E14AFE4F35AF5B2CF9F92155CF@tegp4> > On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > How about their "Jaz" drives? > > their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was administered > > DURING manufacturing. I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone really know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch; solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control probably, but why loose it and not regain it). Comments? Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) Tom From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 4 12:17:41 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:17:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: <4B194445.7000802@gmail.com> References: <4B194445.7000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: [snip] > Ahh, that doesn't count, though :-) I was curious about "external boxes" > rather than plug-in cards (so the MacCharlie does count - turns out there's a > wikipedia* entry for it too. Interesting beast, not something I'd heard of > before) > > * except that the article uses the term 'CPU' to mean the entire Mac, which > always makes me grind my teeth! Fixed! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From feedle at feedle.net Fri Dec 4 12:21:40 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:21:40 -0800 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <05A520E14AFE4F35AF5B2CF9F92155CF@tegp4> References: <05A520E14AFE4F35AF5B2CF9F92155CF@tegp4> Message-ID: <0E883702-4588-419A-854A-9C9A83E0FC5D@feedle.net> On Dec 4, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ > problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying > problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone really > know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch; > solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control probably, > but why loose it and not regain it). Comments? The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_of_death) seems to provide some insight. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 4 12:30:13 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:30:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <05A520E14AFE4F35AF5B2CF9F92155CF@tegp4> References: <05A520E14AFE4F35AF5B2CF9F92155CF@tegp4> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner wrote: >> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> How about their "Jaz" drives? >>> their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was administered >>> DURING manufacturing. > > I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ > problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying > problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone really > know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch; > solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control probably, > but why loose it and not regain it). Comments? > > Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being named for the noises they make when they die. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 12:50:30 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:50:30 -0800 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c8ad54$21087680$0501a8c0@xp1800> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912041050t33ca17f7rf3322bd1dde46794@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> The roms on my integral are HP-UX V1.0 and uses both pcb's for HP-UX I >> suppose they used smaller roms in the first version or HP-UX V1.0 takes more >> place. > > Is it the same PCB? haev V5.0 in my Integrals, and the daugherboard > connectors are 2 row things (I think 2 rows of 10 pins each), a plug at > one end of the PC, a socket at the other, so that the daughterboard can > only fit one way round. But I am sure I've een a picutre of an Itengral > ROM module PCB on one of the websites which appears to have SIL > connectors for the daughterboard. > Replying to an old message here. In case anyone is interested, this is what the inside of an HP IPC ROM module looks like with the optional BASIC ROMs: http://mysite.verizon.net/watneycat/0031/0005.JPG http://mysite.verizon.net/watneycat/0031/0006.JPG http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290377617287 From doc at vaxen.net Fri Dec 4 12:51:52 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 12:51:52 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: References: <05A520E14AFE4F35AF5B2CF9F92155CF@tegp4> Message-ID: <4B195A48.6080905@vaxen.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner wrote: > >>> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> How about their "Jaz" drives? >>>> their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was administered >>>> DURING manufacturing. >> >> I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ >> problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying >> problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone >> really >> know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch; >> solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control >> probably, >> but why loose it and not regain it). Comments? >> >> Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) > > I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being named for the > noises they make when they die. Don't forget Iomega's so-called "backup software"! One of my clients had been doing his nightly backup on an Iomega Travan drive, using the software that came with it. I did a restore test when he came to us, and found that most of his tapes were so worn there were clear stretches of mylar mid-tape! The Iomega software had never thrown a single write error. We used to call Iomega stuff in general "write-only media". Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 4 13:21:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:21:50 -0800 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <4B195A48.6080905@vaxen.net> References: , , <4B195A48.6080905@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4B18F0CE.9510.5A970A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2009 at 12:51, Doc Shipley wrote: > One of my clients had been doing his nightly backup on an Iomega > Travan drive, using the software that came with it. I did a restore > test when he came to us, and found that most of his tapes were so worn > there were clear stretches of mylar mid-tape! The Iomega software had > never thrown a single write error. Not really Iomega's fault. My gripe in general with most Travan and QIC-40/80 consumer-level devices. A separate verify pass is necessary, which takes about as much time as the writing pass, so most users simply never bothered. And if an error was discovered on the tape, the entire tape had to be rewritten, a real disincentive to verifying if there ever was one. An awful lot of data was written in drifting sand as a result. As much as DDS devices were despised, at least they had read-after- write. My memory is faint, but I think there were a few Travan drives wtih read-after write implemented--perhaps HP? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 4 13:28:03 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:28:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091204112600.N74492@shell.lmi.net> > Wasn't there a thing cammed MacCharlie? A box that sat alongside a > classic Mac and connected to the serial port (?). It had a 5.25" drive > built in and would run PC software using the Mac keyaord and display. I remember one that was a re-badged Ampro. But they were extraordinarily careful to NEVER say that it was a PC computer. It was a "special DISK DRIVE for the Mac that let it read PC disks, and even run PC software". From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 13:31:51 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:31:51 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <4B18F0CE.9510.5A970A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B195A48.6080905@vaxen.net> <4B18F0CE.9510.5A970A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912041131w201aca71j1c6f6678364420a8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My gripe in general with most Travan and QIC-40/80 consumer-level > devices. A separate verify pass is necessary, which takes about as > much time as the writing pass, so most users simply never bothered. > And if an error was discovered on the tape, the entire tape had to be > rewritten, a real disincentive to verifying if there ever was one. > > An awful lot of data was written in drifting sand as a result. > Back in the early 90s, I had a job installing computers in dentist offices. It was a dos based application with an early version of novell. So there'd be half a dozen ISA based dos machines with 10base2 network boards. The novell servers would have QIC drives in them (iirc). The machines had an optical sensor with a light. When the tape neared the end of the reel, holes in the tape would pass between the light and detector telling the drive that the end was near. These things would fill up with dust and obscure the light or sensor. So it wouldn't detect the end of the reel and wind the tape all the way off the other spool. The tape wasn't attached at all, just wound around the reel with enough extra to hold it in place. I don't know how many times I've opened those QIC cartridges and crazy-glued the tape back onto the reel after blowing the dust out of the drive. They didn't want their data back. They were just too cheap to buy new cartridges. :-/ brian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 4 13:50:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:50:04 -0800 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912041131w201aca71j1c6f6678364420a8@mail.gmail.com> References: , <4B18F0CE.9510.5A970A@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380912041131w201aca71j1c6f6678364420a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B18F76C.9871.747105@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2009 at 13:31, Brian Lanning wrote: > I don't know how many times I've opened those QIC cartridges and > crazy-glued the tape back onto the reel after blowing the dust out of > the drive. They didn't want their data back. They were just too > cheap to buy new cartridges. :-/ Back when I was just starting to fool with floppy QIC drives, I had a terrible time with the tape despooling. Fortunately, 3M had a working customer-service number and one got to talk with a real human who actually knew something. When I called, the fellow on the other end said that a "surfactant solution" could be used to slightly moisten the loose end of the tape to stick it to the hub so that the tape could be wound onto it. When I asked him what exactly was meant by "surfactant solution", he said "saliva will do just fine". And so it did. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 4 15:00:47 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:00:47 +0100 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912041050t33ca17f7rf3322bd1dde46794@mail.gmail.com> References: <000a01c8ad54$21087680$0501a8c0@xp1800> <1e1fc3e90912041050t33ca17f7rf3322bd1dde46794@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2646628652D04C8C8F76641EA6F6F7E9@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: vrijdag 4 december 2009 19:51 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals > > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > >> > >> The roms on my integral are HP-UX V1.0 and uses both pcb's > for HP-UX > >> I suppose they used smaller roms in the first version or > HP-UX V1.0 > >> takes more place. > > > > Is it the same PCB? haev V5.0 in my Integrals, and the daugherboard > > connectors are 2 row things (I think 2 rows of 10 pins > each), a plug > > at one end of the PC, a socket at the other, so that the > daughterboard > > can only fit one way round. But I am sure I've een a picutre of an > > Itengral ROM module PCB on one of the websites which > appears to have > > SIL connectors for the daughterboard. > > > > Replying to an old message here. > > In case anyone is interested, this is what the inside of an > HP IPC ROM module looks like with the optional BASIC ROMs: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/watneycat/0031/0005.JPG > http://mysite.verizon.net/watneycat/0031/0006.JPG > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290377617287 Yest and this is how the V1.0 ROMS look like http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3300459254/ -Rik From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 15:03:56 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:03:56 -0600 Subject: Amiga Sidecar (was Re: Computer auction in Vancouver BC) In-Reply-To: References: <4B194445.7000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B19793C.5000308@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: >> * except that the article uses the term 'CPU' to mean the entire Mac, >> which always makes me grind my teeth! > > Fixed! Ha ha, I wasn't expecting that - thanks! Tested and working... ;) From vern4wright at yahoo.com Fri Dec 4 16:29:21 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:29:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Steve Gibson (Spinrite, Shields Up, etc.) has a really good discussion of the ZIP drive and how and when it fails. This link takes you to his software for the problem (I think it's one of his freebies, but I haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below that is his discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click (which is what those drives ought to be renamed). http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm Vern Wright --- On Fri, 12/4/09, David Griffith wrote: > From: David Griffith > Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:30 AM > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner > wrote: > > >> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >>> How about their "Jaz" drives? > >>> their "click" drives?? In which the > "click of death" was administered > >>> DURING manufacturing. > > > > I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP > problem and not a JAZ > > problem.? I also never found a good statement of > what was the underlying > > problem(s) that led to the "click of death" > phenomena!? Does anyone really > > know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head > retract/relaunch; > > solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of > servo control probably, > > but why loose it and not regain it).? Comments? > > > > Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) > > I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being > named for the > noises they make when they die. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read > text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 15:43:54 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:43:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 3, 9 04:14:28 pm Message-ID: > As long as the cat's out of the bag, I want to say that the DVD is > "purist-safe". I used real Amiga hardware to make the DVD, going so far Err, surely 'purist' video recordings are made on EIAJ reel-to-reel tapes, (compact) Umatic cassettes or V2000 tapes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 16:25:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:25:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912041131w201aca71j1c6f6678364420a8@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Dec 4, 9 01:31:51 pm Message-ID: > wind the tape all the way off the other spool. The tape wasn't attached at > all, just wound around the reel with enough extra to hold it in place. I > don't know how many times I've opened those QIC cartridges and crazy-glued > the tape back onto the reel after blowing the dust out of the drive. They Yiu don;'t need (and shouldn't) glue anything. You cna just wind the tape on as it was origianlly, then turn the 2 reels in opposite directions by hand to tension the tape, reassemble the catridge and do the normal 'retension tape' procedure on the drive. This was in the user manuals for some of the QIC drives I've worked with (back when user manuals contained useful information). > didn't want their data back. They were just too cheap to buy new > cartridges. :-/ Although the manuals make it clear this procesudre is to be done only to recover data from damaged tapes. And that you should buy new tapes afterwards... Does anyobody elase remebr the 'what is the true cost of a diskette' advert? It gave some very high figure and then pointed out that $2 (or something) was the media and the rest was paying a typist to re-enter the data. I don;'t think it pointed out that if you didn;'t have a copy of the data, the cost was going to be even higher, That ad conviced me to always use good-quality media (not necessarily from whatver company it was advertising, thohgh). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 16:14:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:14:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MC68010 early unix computer for sale on ebay In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912040452l4ecf7093h6e472a7f7cbb026c@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Dec 4, 9 06:52:12 am Message-ID: > > What's DS1? Run Level? I don't know if it's the case here, but 'DS' is a common designator on schematics for DiSplay (like 'R' for resistor, 'C' for capacitor, 'Q' for transistor, etc). So I took it to simply be the scheamtic reference for that display. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 16:39:17 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:39:17 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380912041131w201aca71j1c6f6678364420a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912041439v16195e28gb29be48c34d97835@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Yiu don;'t need (and shouldn't) glue anything. You cna just wind the tape > on as it was origianlly, then turn the 2 reels in opposite directions by > hand to tension the tape, reassemble the catridge and do the normal > 'retension tape' procedure on the drive. > > This was in the user manuals for some of the QIC drives I've worked with > (back when user manuals contained useful information). > I agree. I was following the strict procedure devised by my not-so-bright boss. I think he believed the tape wouldn't come off the next time. brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 4 16:44:44 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:44:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091204144217.L74492@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Vernon Wright wrote: > haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below that is his > discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click > (which is what those drives ought to be renamed). But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too little, too late) From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Dec 4 16:52:42 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:52:42 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> Hooray! it lives! > > Then, assuming the cable really is correct (have you tried swapping Tx > and Rx?), is plugged in to the correct This was the somewhat obvious error I missed when checking the cable. I discovered it by trying another cable which isn't keyed. So I accidentally put it in upside down, which incidentally flips Tx and Rx. Thanks for putting up with me :) So now I get this: 28 START? Which confuses me, I have a 32kB (or is it kW ?) worth of memory installed (M8044-DD) configured to start at address 0. Shouldn't it say 32 instead of 28? How does the memory detection work anyway? Tomorrow I'll will try to boot an XXDP pack from RL01. I've hooked it up and the controller seems to talk to the drive at least. Kind regards, Pontus From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 4 16:57:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:57:59 -0500 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 Message-ID: <74a84ffed6b1839176a1f053fff797e8.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Fri, December 4, 2009 5:52 pm, Pontus wrote: >> Then, assuming the cable really is correct (have you tried swapping Tx >> and Rx?), is plugged in to the correct > This was the somewhat obvious error I missed when checking the cable. I > discovered it by trying another cable which isn't keyed. So I > accidentally put it in upside down, which incidentally flips Tx and Rx. > Thanks for putting up with me :) > > So now I get this: > > 28 > START? > > Which confuses me, I have a 32kB (or is it kW ?) worth of memory > installed (M8044-DD) configured to start at address 0. Shouldn't it say > 32 instead of 28? How does the memory detection work anyway? 4K for the I/O page.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 4 16:58:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:58:05 -0500 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <15b4701299883b77d6073797e9a5db5e.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Fri, December 4, 2009 5:52 pm, Pontus wrote: >> Then, assuming the cable really is correct (have you tried swapping Tx >> and Rx?), is plugged in to the correct > This was the somewhat obvious error I missed when checking the cable. I > discovered it by trying another cable which isn't keyed. So I > accidentally put it in upside down, which incidentally flips Tx and Rx. > Thanks for putting up with me :) > > So now I get this: > > 28 > START? > > Which confuses me, I have a 32kB (or is it kW ?) worth of memory > installed (M8044-DD) configured to start at address 0. Shouldn't it say > 32 instead of 28? How does the memory detection work anyway? 4K for the I/O page.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Dec 4 17:01:37 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:01:37 -0800 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <20091204144217.L74492@shell.lmi.net> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091204144217.L74492@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3C672165-0F17-404B-A211-B80C5ED2E891@mail.msu.edu> On Dec 4, 2009, at 2:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Vernon Wright wrote: >> haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below that is his >> discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click >> (which is what those drives ought to be renamed). > > But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too > little, too > late) 40mb. I inherited a drive and some disks... I find it remarkable that they managed to fit a spinning-removable-media drive inside a standard PCMCIA card. Somehow, I don't really feel like trusting it to anything important, though :). ( I also have an mp3 player that uses the discs... if a 40mb disc could hold more than 10 songs it might have been a good idea...) - Josh > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 4 17:09:33 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:09:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Slightly off topic, but wasn't Spinrite shown to be pretty much a snake oil product at one point? ________________________________ From: Vernon Wright To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 4:29:21 PM Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') Steve Gibson (Spinrite, Shields Up, etc.) has a really good discussion of the ZIP drive and how and when it fails. This link takes you to his software for the problem (I think it's one of his freebies, but I haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below that is his discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click (which is what those drives ought to be renamed). http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm Vern Wright --- On Fri, 12/4/09, David Griffith wrote: > From: David Griffith > Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:30 AM > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner > wrote: > > >> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >>> How about their "Jaz" drives? > >>> their "click" drives? In which the > "click of death" was administered > >>> DURING manufacturing. > > > > I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP > problem and not a JAZ > > problem. I also never found a good statement of > what was the underlying > > problem(s) that led to the "click of death" > phenomena! Does anyone really > > know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head > retract/relaunch; > > solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of > servo control probably, > > but why loose it and not regain it). Comments? > > > > Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) > > I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being > named for the > noises they make when they die. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read > text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 4 17:20:39 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091204151800.Q74492@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Slightly off topic, but wasn't Spinrite shown to be pretty much a snake > oil product at one point? It actually could take a track that was on the manufacturer's defect/"Don't trust this!" list, and if it got a successful read/write, return that track to active use! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 4 17:31:57 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:31:57 +0000 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Slightly off topic, but wasn't Spinrite shown to be pretty much a snake oil product at one point? Basically, yeah. It does some "magnetic black magic" (there's an appnote somewhere on www.grc.com about it), but I can't see it being anywhere near relevant for modern drives. I'd be very surprised if the "patented magnetic data encoder/decoder" wasn't at least two generations out of date -- hard drive manufacturers don't tend to give out much information at the best of times (even application/OEM manuals are a pig to get hold of these days). The idea that any company larger than (say) Conner was in ~1988 would give GRC details on the magnetic encoding scheme used on their drives is laughable at best. These companies are fiercely protective of their IP (and that's probably an understatement). Spinrite is also about as fast as treacle dripping off a spoon in the middle of a Siberian winter... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 4 18:56:02 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:56:02 -0600 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> Anyone know where I can find one? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 4 18:54:28 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:54:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk> <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: In a Kaypro 2000, but that's the wrong answer. Now there is a chip I haven't heard about in a *LONG* time. Zane On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Anyone know where I can find one? > From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Dec 4 19:49:09 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:49:09 -0600 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: References: <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk> <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20091204194635.0d9b90a8@localhost> At 04:54 PM 12/4/2009 -0800, you wrote: >In a Kaypro 2000, but that's the wrong answer. Now there is a chip I >haven't heard about in a *LONG* time. > >Zane > > > >On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > >>Anyone know where I can find one? I remember hotrodding many PCs by intalling a V30 and a PC-Sprint kit (a new clock chip on a small board with an external switch. You got a small selection of crystals to try. You left the highest freq crystal installed that ran and was stable.) ----- 332. [Science] You should never bet against anything in science at odds of more than about 10-12 to 1. --Ernest Rutherford --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 4 19:21:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:21:20 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk>, <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B194510.16048.1A3B986@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2009 at 18:56, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Anyone know where I can find one? Jameco's got 'em. Search for UPD70108. 10 clams. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 4 20:17:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:17:47 -0500 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B199BED.7080301@philpem.me.uk> <5DC3B0AB-871A-42BC-9EAE-C9C6F4C8A65F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Anyone know where I can find one? I scored one on eBay about two years ago, I think it cost me around $10. The part number is "70108"; it's more likely (or at least just as likely) to be listed by that than "V20". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From vern4wright at yahoo.com Fri Dec 4 21:19:47 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:19:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <20091204144217.L74492@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <737968.29329.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Guess I shouldn't get into the business of advising Iomega on naming their products. Vern Wright --- On Fri, 12/4/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 2:44 PM > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Vernon Wright > wrote: > > haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below > that is his > > discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the > reasons for the Click > > (which is what those drives ought to be renamed). > > But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click"? > (20M?? too little, too > late) > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 21:28:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:28:09 -0500 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed Message-ID: I am surprised this has not made list news yet. Claude Kagan had a terrible fire yesterday morning that completely destroyed his barn. The barn was fairly well known to many East coast collectors, as it was the home of the RESISTORS, a group of 1970s teenage hackers, as well as being the home of his collection of interesting technological items, including quite a few computers. Claude is unharmed and in decent spirits, and his house is unharmed, except for lack of electricity. The barn held many interesting machines over the years. Every so often Claude would let one go - sometimes to individuals, other times to museums. At the time of the fire, he still had some AT&T 3B2s, a Teletype 37, a Symbolics 3670, a more or less complete small town Central Office complex, and most importantly, the legendary Burroughs B205. Claude and I had just started to clean up the barn three weeks ago, and while I pulled out a good pile of very good documentation, much was lost. It is likely that there is little or nothing that can be saved. I made an emergency side trip today to help out, as I was down in New Jersey anyway. The destruction is total. The Burroughs is sticking out of the rubble, gutted and stripped of paint. The Burroughs is dead. -- Will From vern4wright at yahoo.com Fri Dec 4 21:29:11 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:29:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') In-Reply-To: <560631.20383.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <549942.51251.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Dunno. But several years ago Spinrite salvaged a dead 60 gig IDE drive for me. Long enough to get the data off. The drive is now an example of how drives are made (cut open and exposed). And Gibson (totally off-topic, and way beyond 10 years ago) was probably the best speaker the San Diego Computer Society ever had at its annual Computer Fair (apologies to all the other great speakers whom I won't name). Vern Wright --- On Fri, 12/4/09, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > From: geoffrey oltmans > Subject: Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 3:09 PM > Slightly off topic, but wasn't > Spinrite shown to be pretty much a snake oil product at one > point? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Vernon Wright > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 4:29:21 PM > Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on > 10 Yr. 'RULE') > > Steve Gibson (Spinrite, Shields Up, etc.) has a really good > discussion of the ZIP drive and how and when it fails. > > This link takes you to his software for the problem (I > think it's one of his freebies, but I haven't used my ZIP > drives in 5+ years). But below that is his discussion of the > anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click (which > is what those drives ought to be renamed). > > http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm > > > Vern Wright > > --- On Fri, 12/4/09, David Griffith > wrote: > > > From: David Griffith > > Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take > on 10 Yr. 'RULE') > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:30 AM > > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner > > wrote: > > > > >> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> > > >>> How about their "Jaz" drives? > > >>> their "click" drives?? In which the > > "click of death" was administered > > >>> DURING manufacturing. > > > > > > I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a > ZIP > > problem and not a JAZ > > > problem.? I also never found a good > statement of > > what was the underlying > > > problem(s) that led to the "click of death" > > phenomena!? Does anyone really > > > know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, > head > > retract/relaunch; > > > solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss > of > > servo control probably, > > > but why loose it and not regain it).? > Comments? > > > > > > Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) > > > > I had a professor who described Iomega devices as > being > > named for the > > noises they make when they die. > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally > read > > text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > From jgessling at yahoo.com Fri Dec 4 21:29:17 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:29:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Message-ID: <637543.18110.qm@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Despite their crappy products, IOmega did leave behind one good legacy. Cheap 5/12v DC regulated wall warts. Perfect for the VFD clocks that I'm working on. 5v for the logic and 12v for the display. And thanks to the throwaway nature of their products these can be found pretty cheap at local flea markets. Regards, Jim From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 4 21:31:31 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:31:31 -0500 Subject: Reason to save very old computers Message-ID: <4B19D413.10804@snarc.net> Yesterday, here in New Jersey, a Burroughs B-205 tube computer was destroyed when the barn containing it burned down. It belonged to 85-year-old Claude Kagan who is a legend out here. Among other things, he formed the student computer club called the "RESISTORS" in the 1960s, and he wrote the SAM-76 programming language. The good news is that Claude was not harmed, and his main house is okay. But it's a good reminder, if anybody needs one, to save vintage computers while we can -- and to ensure the integrity of our storage areas. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 4 21:31:09 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:31:09 -0800 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <74a84ffed6b1839176a1f053fff797e8.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> References: <74a84ffed6b1839176a1f053fff797e8.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Just to expand slightly on Dave's concise response and avoid further churn: the PDP-11 departed from the earlier practice of special I/O instructions and implemented memory mapped I/O. The top 4 kW is reserved for I/O devices, with a special signal being generated on the LSI-11 bus that 'enforces' this. So a PDP-11 without memory management will allow up to 28 kW; an 18-bit bus will allow up to 124 kW. I'll let you do the math for a 22-bit memory management system. I'm glad things are coming together! Cheers -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 2:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 On Fri, December 4, 2009 5:52 pm, Pontus wrote: >> Then, assuming the cable really is correct (have you tried swapping Tx >> and Rx?), is plugged in to the correct > This was the somewhat obvious error I missed when checking the cable. I > discovered it by trying another cable which isn't keyed. So I > accidentally put it in upside down, which incidentally flips Tx and Rx. > Thanks for putting up with me :) > > So now I get this: > > 28 > START? > > Which confuses me, I have a 32kB (or is it kW ?) worth of memory > installed (M8044-DD) configured to start at address 0. Shouldn't it say > 32 instead of 28? How does the memory detection work anyway? 4K for the I/O page.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 4 21:37:29 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:37:29 -0500 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B19D579.9000009@snarc.net> > I am surprised this has not made list news yet. > > Claude Kagan had a terrible fire yesterday morning I sent a similar email about 30 seconds ago! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 21:39:16 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:39:16 -0500 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: <4B19D579.9000009@snarc.net> References: <4B19D579.9000009@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I sent a similar email about 30 seconds ago! You got scooped. -- Will From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 4 23:03:47 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:03:47 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/4/09 6:17 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On Dec 4, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> Anyone know where I can find one? > > I scored one on eBay about two years ago, I think it cost me > around $10. The part number is "70108"; it's more likely (or at > least just as likely) to be listed by that than "V20". > > -Dave Don't the V20/V30 have the 8080 instructions in them so you can run cp/m programs with minimum emulation. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 4 23:12:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:12:59 -0500 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> Anyone know where I can find one? >> >> I scored one on eBay about two years ago, I think it cost me >> around $10. The part number is "70108"; it's more likely (or at >> least just as likely) to be listed by that than "V20". > > > Don't the V20/V30 have the 8080 instructions in them so you can run > cp/m > programs with minimum emulation. The V20 definitely does; I've done that. I don't know about the V30 but I *think* it does...can anyone confirm? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 4 23:21:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:21:03 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B197D3F.29780.27F2EDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2009 at 21:03, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Don't the V20/V30 have the 8080 instructions in them so you can run > cp/m programs with minimum emulation. Yes--note that it's 8080, not Z80 or even 8085. There are one or two small bugs in the implementation, but most things will run okay. Note that the V40 and V50 chips also have the capability as do a few other members of the lower V-series. The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a moot point nowadays, as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080 code via software emulation. And you can do more things with software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 4 23:23:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:23:21 -0500 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <4B197D3F.29780.27F2EDC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B197D3F.29780.27F2EDC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a moot point nowadays, > as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080 > code via software emulation. And you can do more things with > software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20. Troll alert. ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 4 23:43:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:43:42 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: References: , <4B197D3F.29780.27F2EDC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2009 at 0:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a moot point nowadays, > > as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080 > > code via software emulation. And you can do more things with > > software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20. > > Troll alert. ;) No troll. Just experience writing an emulator package that did both. A software emulator can trap I/O and memory references and direct them to a handler that allows one to emulate whatever hardware one desires. The V20/V30/V33/V40/V50 simply map I/O accesses to whatever port is present on the host machine--far less useful. What's far more interesting to me on the V-series are the instructions that one won't find on any Intel chip, such as the BCD string arithmetic instructions. --Chuck From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Dec 5 05:46:46 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 12:46:46 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B1A4826.3000100@update.uu.se> > Tomorrow I'll will try to boot an XXDP pack from RL01. I've hooked it up > and the controller seems to talk to the drive at least. > A short follow up. I've booted XXDP from one of my RL01 drives, the other lights the FAULT light when I press LOAD. I hope XXDP can give me some more information, but likely I'll replace it with an RL02 which I hope to revive. Next I'll try to upgrade as much as possible. I would like to put an 11/73 in there, but I don't the backplane or memory I have supports it. Now I'm off to read some XXDP manuals. Cheers, Pontus. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 5 07:15:37 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:15:37 +0000 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B1A4826.3000100@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> <4B1A4826.3000100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B1A5CF9.9080003@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/12/2009 11:46, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Next I'll try to upgrade as much as possible. I would like to put an > 11/73 in there, but I don't the backplane or memory I have supports it. They will. The MSV11-D memory and your H9273 backplane will support 18-bit addressing, and so as long as you don't try to run things as a 22-bit system, they'll work fine. A KDJ11-A or KDJ11-B will happily work as an 18-bit system if that's what they're in, just as your KDF11 does (it's also 22-bit, if it has the MMU). There's no practical way to upgrade the MSV11-D to 22-bit, but if you do want to upgrade the backplane, it's not very hard to link together the relevant pins for the additional 4 signal lines by soldering wire-wrap wire down the backplane. If you do that, the system, including the MSV11-D will still work fine as an 18-bit system so long as you don't try to put memory in the area from 256KB to 4MB. If you want to go further than 256KB, remember that your BDV11 is also only 18-bit, unless it's Revision F or later. However, there's an ECO to convert it to 22-bit if necessary. And if you want more memory than 256KB, you'll need to replace the MSV11-D with something else. Early DLV11-J boards are supposedly not compatible with even KDF11 processors, but I can't remember why. Anyway, yours works, apparently, so presumably it's not too early, and will also with with a KDJ11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 5 07:43:54 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 07:43:54 -0600 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B197D3F.29780.27F2EDC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> I was really more interested in the overall performance gains per clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between 10-20% faster or something like that. On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Dec 2009 at 0:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a moot point nowadays, >>> as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080 >>> code via software emulation. And you can do more things with >>> software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20. >> >> Troll alert. ;) > > No troll. Just experience writing an emulator package that did both. > A software emulator can trap I/O and memory references and direct > them to a handler that allows one to emulate whatever hardware one > desires. The V20/V30/V33/V40/V50 simply map I/O accesses to > whatever port is present on the host machine--far less useful. > > What's far more interesting to me on the V-series are the > instructions that one won't find on any Intel chip, such as the BCD > string arithmetic instructions. > > --Chuck > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 5 07:52:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:52:53 -0500 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> References: , <4B197D3F.29780.27F2EDC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com> <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I was really more interested in the overall performance gains per > clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between > 10-20% faster or something like that. It's a noticeable improvement. I used to refer to it as the "something for nothing" upgrade. The V20's power consumption is also significantly lower than that of the 8088, so that's a nice benefit as well. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alberto at a2sistemi.it Sat Dec 5 07:59:22 2009 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 14:59:22 +0100 Subject: Help to identify "chip" Message-ID: <027401ca75b3$26a87350$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> I've found this little board, similar to a processor board: the chip with heathsink can be the microprocessor and the other cache ... but I'm not sure I've search information, with the codes in the label, but no answer. Can someone help me ? These are the pictures (big, 500K each) Front http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/varie/chippone/modulo_sconosciuto_dr itto.gif and rear http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/varie/chippone/modulo_sconosciuto_di etro.gif ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 MUSEO DEL COMPUTER / COMPUTER MUSEUM http://www.oldcomputers.it Mail:info at oldcomputers.it Tel 0321 1856032 Fax 0321 2046034 ------------------------------------------------------ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 5 08:06:40 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:06:40 +0100 Subject: Fluke 9000A probes available Message-ID: <6DBB8C83AAD7493787544C80345711E9@xp1800> As it says, I've two Fluke 9000A available for a little beer money or trade for HP stuff.. Located in the Netherlands but int' shipping is no problem and should be not to expensive (flat rate envelope) Please contact off-list -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 5 08:20:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:20:52 -0500 Subject: Help to identify "chip" In-Reply-To: <027401ca75b3$26a87350$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> References: <027401ca75b3$26a87350$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi wrote: > I've found this little board, similar to a processor board: the chip > with heathsink can be the microprocessor and the other cache ... > but I'm > not sure > I've search information, with the codes in the label, but no answer. > Can someone help me ? > > These are the pictures (big, 500K each) > Front > http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/varie/chippone/ > modulo_sconosciuto_dr > itto.gif > and rear > http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/varie/chippone/ > modulo_sconosciuto_di > etro.gif This board (the whole board) is a DRAM controller module. I should still have a datasheet for it somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alberto at a2sistemi.it Sat Dec 5 09:28:18 2009 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 16:28:18 +0100 Subject: Help to identify "chip" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601ca75bf$92c75220$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> > This board (the whole board) is a DRAM controller module. I > should still have a datasheet for it somewhere. I was looking for wrong type :) It's made from Cypress ? I have somo old data book of CY Do you know on wich system was used ? Thanks Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 MUSEO DEL COMPUTER / COMPUTER MUSEUM http://www.oldcomputers.it Mail:info at oldcomputers.it Tel 0321 1856032 Fax 0321 2046034 ------------------------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 5 09:36:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:36:58 -0500 Subject: Help to identify "chip" In-Reply-To: <000601ca75bf$92c75220$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> References: <000601ca75bf$92c75220$0f00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi wrote: >> This board (the whole board) is a DRAM controller module. I >> should still have a datasheet for it somewhere. > > I was looking for wrong type :) It's made from Cypress ? I have > somo old > data book of CY Yes, it's a Cypress product. Pretty nice as I recall, but that was a long time ago. > Do you know on wich system was used ? I don't know of any offhand. I remember seeing the announcement around 1991 or so and wishing it had been available a couple of years earlier; we probably would've used it in a project I worked on instead of the 8207. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 5 10:31:05 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:31:05 -0800 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1A8AC9.9050904@bitsavers.org> William Donzelli wrote: > I pulled out a good pile of very good documentation Were you able to save anything from the 205? The American Computer Museum has a decent set with the machine they have in Boseman. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 10:59:55 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 11:59:55 -0500 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: <4B1A8AC9.9050904@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1A8AC9.9050904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Were you able to save anything from the 205? The American Computer Museum > has a decent set with the machine they have in Boseman. No. I know where they were - in the telephone switch room. I refrained from taking any Burroughs material until we had cut a deal. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 5 11:38:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 09:38:03 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> References: , <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com>, <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2009 at 7:43, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I was really more interested in the overall performance gains per > clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between 10-20% > faster or something like that. Depends on the instruction mix--some things are much faster; others not so much. I may still have some benchmark data in my V20 file that sheds some additional light if you're curious. I do recall that the gain was perhaps barely noticeable on a standard IBM 5160 and gave ridiculous indication on the Landmark SPEED test. The most significant benefit was that the V20 supports all of the non- privileged 80286 instructions, expanding the software possibilities a bit for old 8-bit PCs. The V20 could be had in higher-speed versions (16MHz?) than the Intel 8088. Although the NEC V-series extended up through the V70, only the V20 and V30 parts were pin-compatible with the Intel 8088 and 8086. Many other members of the V series contain some innovative features. --Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Dec 5 11:43:55 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 12:43:55 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available Message-ID: Ansgar Kueckes has released a new version of his "HPDrive" disc emulator that works with HP 64000 logic development stations and HP 1000 MEF-series minicomputers, in addition to the HP 9845. The emulator is hosted on a Windows PC with a GPIB interface card and appears to the target system to be any of a selection of HP-IB floppy, hard, or cartridge tape drives that use the Amigo or CS/80 protocols. Drives that are not supported natively may be added via a configuration file if the drive parameters (Amigo) or Describe information (CS/80) is supplied. The project page is here: http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ The emulator has not been tested with the HP 1000 A/L-series, nor with the HP 3000, but the disc emulations are reasonably thorough and may well work with these systems. My thanks to Michel Bissonnette, Al Kossow, Frank McConnell, and Jay West for lending hardware for HPDrive development and testing. -- Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 5 12:41:56 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:41:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com>, <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091205103148.T12597@shell.lmi.net> > > clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between 10-20% > > faster or something like that. On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Depends on the instruction mix--some things are much faster; others > not so much. I may still have some benchmark data in my V20 file > that sheds some additional light if you're curious. If you let me design the race-course, I can beat a Ferrari with a 1950's VW bus. Or, to be closer to on-topic: If you let me design the benchmark, I can prove that a TRS80 is faster than a current Dell. > I do recall that the gain was perhaps barely noticeable on a standard > IBM 5160 and gave ridiculous indication on the Landmark SPEED test. Landmark was extremely popular with vendors, because it made the most trivial enhancements seem major. Although it was CLOSE, usually acceptably so, it was not COMPLETELY plug-in compatible. For example, the Gavilan required some trivial hardware mods to use it. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 5 13:18:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 11:18:29 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <20091205103148.T12597@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091205103148.T12597@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B1A4185.13464.8A6F16@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2009 at 10:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you let me design the race-course, I can beat a Ferrari with a > 1950's VW bus. Or, to be closer to on-topic: If you let me design > the benchmark, I can prove that a TRS80 is faster than a current Dell. Machines were designed to perform to certain benchmarks. Anyone remember Saxpy (the company, not the LINPACK deck)? Anyone have one of their machines? We used to "cook" benchmarks with clever compiler optimizations. > Landmark was extremely popular with vendors, because it made the most > trivial enhancements seem major. At 80's computer "faires", you used to see aisle after aisle of vendors selling Far East-origin systems all running Version 0.99 of the Landmark test. > Although it was CLOSE, usually acceptably so, it was not COMPLETELY > plug-in compatible. For example, the Gavilan required some trivial > hardware mods to use it. On most systems, this isn't an issue, but ISTR that the RESET timing is a bit slower on the V20 than the 8088 and that trips up some systems. AAR, if you have trouble with the V20 in your 8088 system, the first place to look is the reset timing. There are also some nits when an 8087 is involved, but I think the workarounds are mostly software in nature. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 5 13:29:47 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 11:29:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <4B1A4185.13464.8A6F16@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091205103148.T12597@shell.lmi.net> <4B1A4185.13464.8A6F16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091205112336.A12597@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On most systems, this isn't an issue, but ISTR that the RESET timing > is a bit slower on the V20 than the 8088 and that trips up some > systems. AAR, if you have trouble with the V20 in your 8088 system, > the first place to look is the reset timing. There are also some > nits when an 8087 is involved, but I think the workarounds are mostly > software in nature. . . . and, it didn't behave the way the 8088 behaved if you had an interrupt occur during execution of an instruction with multiple "prefixes", such as a segment override along with a REP with the "string" instructions. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 5 13:45:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 11:45:02 -0800 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <20091205112336.A12597@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B1A4185.13464.8A6F16@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091205112336.A12597@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B1A47BE.29290.A2BE5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Dec 2009 at 11:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, it didn't behave the way the 8088 behaved if you had an > interrupt occur during execution of an instruction with multiple > "prefixes", such as a segment override along with a REP with the > "string" instructions. Early versions of the 8088 did have the problem that they'd "forget" all but one prefix when the return from interrupt was made, but I think later ones didn't. Just as early versions of the 8088 didn't mask interrupts for one instruction time after a MOV SS,... instruction. The V-series made it into some early laptops and portables because of the lower power consumption. In particular, when the CPU was in a "halt" state, power consumption dropped to about 1/10 of that of the running state. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 5 14:06:40 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 20:06:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <430018.55075.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> It is great that he is ok, but a terrible thing about the loss of the computers and other equipment stored in there. Is the source of the fire known at this point? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 5/12/09, William Donzelli wrote: From: William Donzelli Subject: Kagan barn destroyed To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 5 December, 2009, 3:28 I am surprised this has not made list news yet. Claude Kagan had a terrible fire yesterday morning that completely destroyed his barn. The barn was fairly well known to many East coast collectors, as it was the home of the RESISTORS, a group of 1970s teenage hackers, as well as being the home of his collection of interesting technological items, including quite a few computers. Claude is unharmed and in decent spirits, and his house is unharmed, except for lack of electricity. The barn held many interesting machines over the years. Every so often Claude would let one go - sometimes to individuals, other times to museums. At the time of the fire, he still had some AT&T 3B2s, a Teletype 37, a Symbolics 3670, a more or less complete small town Central Office complex, and most importantly, the legendary Burroughs B205. Claude and I had just started to clean up the barn three weeks ago, and while I pulled out a good pile of very good documentation, much was lost. It is likely that there is little or nothing that can be saved. I made an emergency side trip today to help out, as I was down in New Jersey anyway. The destruction is total. The Burroughs is sticking out of the rubble, gutted and stripped of paint. The Burroughs is dead. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:34:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:34:39 -0500 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: <430018.55075.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <430018.55075.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > It is great that he is ok, but a terrible thing about the loss of the computers and other equipment stored in there. The documentation is probably the prime loss. I had just started to scratch the surface. > Is the source of the fire known at this point? No. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 5 18:02:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:02:20 -0700 Subject: Kagan barn destroyed In-Reply-To: References: <430018.55075.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B1AF48C.30305@jetnet.ab.ca> >> Is the source of the fire known at this point? >No. Quote from another group: B-205. ------------ They think it was electrical. Claude once told me he had the only home in N.J. that had 3 phase power going to it. :) During the middle of winter, with the B-205 going, they would have to open windows to let the heat out! ------------ From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 20:18:36 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 20:18:36 -0600 Subject: Anything worth visiting on my way to fond du lac tomorrow? Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912051818q54934e84n21a2f5778e3053a5@mail.gmail.com> I'm buying a car in fond du lac tomorrow. Anything worth stopping and seeing? Anyone along 41 or 94 who wants to trade? brian From hachti at hachti.de Sat Dec 5 22:31:21 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 05:31:21 +0100 Subject: Pinging Philipp Hachtmann In-Reply-To: <1b823ef960eccafc784fa9c4cc70b319.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <1b823ef960eccafc784fa9c4cc70b319.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B1B3399.3050701@hachti.de> Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Philipp, please contact me, I have several items ready for you. Oops...! From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 23:14:34 2009 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 21:14:34 -0800 Subject: Computer auction in Vancouver BC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5F9DB07A34E54C169C3256C84DD6BD3B@sparks> Word has come down the line to me that six people showed up during registration hours and only three people actually registered. Unfortunately a minimum of 12 people were needed for the auction to go ahead and thus it has unfortunately been cancelled. >From what I have heard, what has already been consolidated will be consolidated again into a single skid and put into storage until another date. Anything that does not make it onto that skid will end up being recycled and it has to be out of the warehouse by Monday so it will be vanishing pretty quickly. Too bad. There was some pretty nice stuff there too. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 6 01:06:10 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 23:06:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mosaic-CK 2.7ck8 Message-ID: <200912060706.nB676ARV011504@floodgap.com> Mosaic-CK is a fork of NCSA Mosaic I maintain as a "Lynx with graphics" for various older operating systems, including Power MachTen, but also as a historical simulation of the early days of the World Wide Web that can run on modern operating systems as well. It currently builds on Mac OS X and Power MachTen, and there is now experimental support for Linux once again. This current version adds: - Split rendering: (default) alternative renderer with - UTF-8 and Unicode translation (partial) - Larger HTML subset support versus the classic renderer, toggleable on the fly - Progressive rendering, to ameliorate page loads - Bug fixes, custodial cleanup, etc. A Universal Binary is available for Mac OS X 10.4+. It requires X11 and (free) OpenMotif. http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/mosaic/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life isn't fair. But having the root password helps. ----------------------- From evan at snarc.net Sun Dec 6 01:25:21 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 02:25:21 -0500 Subject: Transdata teletypes Message-ID: <4B1B5C61.8030303@snarc.net> Anyone know much about Transdata teletypes from the early/mid-1970s? Google doesn't show much. I'm interested in the company itself. What's the story of Transdata, and what became of the company? Links / articles / etc. would be appreciated. Thanks. - Evan From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Dec 6 09:47:39 2009 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 09:47:39 -0600 Subject: wanted - 5380 SCSI controller Message-ID: <68E9232139224CCEB22203653AC80063@obie> I'm looking for one or two NCR/AMD 5380 SCSI chips (40 pin DIP) to restore an Ampro Little Board Plus. Will pay a reasonable price or trade a couple of motley Xerox I mobos + docs (one has a Ferguson RAM enhancement daughter board). Please reply to me directly. Thanks, Jack From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 11:22:49 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:22:49 +0000 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com> <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0912060922k3b97cacdic8971a32ed021d0c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The most significant benefit was that the V20 supports all of the non- > privileged 80286 instructions, expanding the software possibilities a > bit for old 8-bit PCs. Yep. For most users, IIRC the most significant benefit of this was that you could run Windows 3.0 in full VGA mode on an 8086 PC with a V20 installed. The VGA driver used '286 instructions so this was not normally possible. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Dec 6 13:33:20 2009 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 13:33:20 -0600 Subject: Complete Collection Sale References: <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com><23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net><4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0912060922k3b97cacdic8971a32ed021d0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D85959C7FED4F008E6F21935A3F3898@ASUS32> Greetings all. I haven't posted in ages. But it is finally time to clean out the basement. I have over 100 classic computer systems. To my knowledge, all but a few of them work. I will sell them individually, or I will sell the lot. Generally the items most people will be interested in are: Bell+Howell Black Apple ][ with matching drives. Two Apple ///'s each with profile drives, both working drives are noisy, but function. Two complete tandy model I's with expansion and monitor, complete, both working, one monitor rolls, but works with some fiddling. Tandy model III with external 5mg HD reconditioned by Tandy service center. Apple IIgs with RAMFAST scsi and 100mg quantum lps 105 drive and PC transporter with monitor. Complete set. Apple IIgs with geniune apple high speed ssci card and geniune apply external hd of the period, with monitor. Complete set. Mattel Aquarius with 4 bay expansion slot and carts. Timex sinclair 2068 with switchable speccy + Rom CBM 2032 works but has school markings. Platinum //e with vulcan accelerator Atari STe with 4megs ram and ICD scsi card with both color and greyscale monitors complete with dual boot TOS/MINT and 14400 modem. Apple ][+ mint and working with drives. Coleco Adam Computer complete and working with a few tapes. Complete Coco3 with geniuen tandy RBG monitor that was made for the COCO twin drives and expansion cartridge accesory. Complete PCJR with multiple carts, monitor, etc and lotus 123 on cart a and b. Commodore Plus4 Amiga 500 in the box Vic20 in the box with dozens of carts including ram expansion and lots of games. Apple //c+ The other 90 systems are run of the mill atari's both classic and XL's, C64s, more apple's, tandys, coco's, model IIp, model 4s. Basically I have a 17x21 room FULL. Make me an offer I can't refuse. I'd rather them go to the community, but next stop will be Ebay. Please reply offlist directly to my email add with the topic in brackets, [Computer Sale] so I can setup a special filter. I'm sure I've forgotten some of odd ones. I'll eventually make a page with the full list depending upon interest and the prep for ebay. From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Dec 6 14:22:58 2009 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:22:58 -0600 Subject: Complete Collection Sale References: <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com><23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net><4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0912060922k3b97cacdic8971a32ed021d0c@mail.gmail.com> <3D85959C7FED4F008E6F21935A3F3898@ASUS32> Message-ID: <31116FB74DC04C04803C064AD1E398B9@ASUS32> Forgot an important one, TI99/4a with PEB and multiple interfaces. very very heavy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Girnius" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "Bill Girnius" Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Complete Collection Sale > Greetings all. I haven't posted in ages. But it is finally time to clean > out the basement. I have over 100 classic computer systems. To my > knowledge, all but a few of them work. I will sell them individually, or > I > will sell the lot. > > Generally the items most people will be interested in are: > > Bell+Howell Black Apple ][ with matching drives. > > Two Apple ///'s each with profile drives, both working drives are noisy, > but > function. > > Two complete tandy model I's with expansion and monitor, complete, both > working, one monitor rolls, but works with some fiddling. > > Tandy model III with external 5mg HD reconditioned by Tandy service > center. > > Apple IIgs with RAMFAST scsi and 100mg quantum lps 105 drive and PC > transporter with monitor. Complete set. > > Apple IIgs with geniune apple high speed ssci card and geniune apply > external hd of the period, with monitor. Complete set. > > Mattel Aquarius with 4 bay expansion slot and carts. > > Timex sinclair 2068 with switchable speccy + Rom > > CBM 2032 works but has school markings. > > Platinum //e with vulcan accelerator > > Atari STe with 4megs ram and ICD scsi card with both color and greyscale > monitors complete with dual boot TOS/MINT and 14400 modem. > > Apple ][+ mint and working with drives. > > Coleco Adam Computer complete and working with a few tapes. > > Complete Coco3 with geniuen tandy RBG monitor that was made for the COCO > twin drives and expansion cartridge accesory. > > Complete PCJR with multiple carts, monitor, etc and lotus 123 on cart a > and > b. > > Commodore Plus4 > > Amiga 500 in the box > > Vic20 in the box with dozens of carts including ram expansion and lots of > games. > > Apple //c+ > > The other 90 systems are run of the mill atari's both classic and XL's, > C64s, more apple's, tandys, coco's, model IIp, model 4s. > > Basically I have a 17x21 room FULL. > > Make me an offer I can't refuse. I'd rather them go to the community, but > next stop will be Ebay. > > Please reply offlist directly to my email add with the topic in brackets, > [Computer Sale] so I can setup a special filter. > > I'm sure I've forgotten some of odd ones. I'll eventually make a page > with > the full list depending upon interest and the prep for ebay. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.96/2548 - Release Date: 12/06/09 01:30:00 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 14:25:22 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 15:25:22 -0500 Subject: Complete Collection Sale In-Reply-To: <3D85959C7FED4F008E6F21935A3F3898@ASUS32> References: <4B19828E.19140.293EC10@cclist.sydex.com> <23DAE2F3-2EF7-480A-AD0D-BFEB0DE9F23F@bellsouth.net> <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0912060922k3b97cacdic8971a32ed021d0c@mail.gmail.com> <3D85959C7FED4F008E6F21935A3F3898@ASUS32> Message-ID: On 12/6/09, Bill Girnius wrote: > Greetings all. I haven't posted in ages. But it is finally time to clean > out the basement. I have over 100 classic computer systems. To my > knowledge, all but a few of them work. I will sell them individually, or I > will sell the lot. Those sound like some interesting systems - where are you? -ethan From alec at sensi.org Sun Dec 6 15:51:52 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 00:51:52 +0300 Subject: V20 processor Message-ID: <347d9b1b0912061351l2f4df15ft6d96468777a117b9@mail.gmail.com> JFYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20 Welcome to correct/update! -- -=AV=- From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Dec 6 17:35:38 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:35:38 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091206233538.A3787BA53F8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> On 5 Dec 2009 at 10:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > Machines were designed to perform to certain benchmarks. Anyone > remember Saxpy (the company, not the LINPACK deck)? Anyone have one > of their machines? Ah, I remember Saxpy Computer Corporation to be in the same vein as Alliant and Sequent etc. A little different than the SEL/Gould processors but not too much (somewhere I have a "Firebreathers from Gould" button, must be 1986? 87?), and probably closer to the bolt-on vector coprocessors. But no, other than hearing their sales pitches never saw one. I'm not sure I knew any labs that bought one. OTOH Alliant and Sequent got into lots of engineering labs and even schools in that time frame. Tim. From hachti at hachti.de Sun Dec 6 18:50:11 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 01:50:11 +0100 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <6759FF3FEB0F44B6851F41EDCC036052@dell8300> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org><5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B15704A.1060000@philpem.me.uk> <6759FF3FEB0F44B6851F41EDCC036052@dell8300> Message-ID: <4B1C5143.2050606@hachti.de> > I have quite a few drives (since I collect old mac and beige g3 and B&W > units came with them plus some others I got back in the day for the PC) > and all of them work. Hm.. I had a few drives as well. I threw away an IDE drive yesterday. Still have at least one IDE drive, some disks, and an external SCSI drive. Probably more. And access to even more (in fact I throw them away - As well as 5.25" floppy disk drives, 3.5" floppy disk drives, MFM and RLL hard disks...). Did not yet have trouble with ZIP drives. Works well with a pdp11, too. -- Philipp From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Dec 6 18:56:54 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:56:54 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update Message-ID: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Just a quick update regarding the disc reader project. I've added sync-on-MFM-word to the microcode, and the software MFM decoder is working. I got the first valid MFM decode using the "soft-PLL" decoder engine about five minutes ago -- the first 16 bytes of an MS-DOS 5.0 boot sector. I can see all the sector headers, address marks and pad bytes displayed on the screen. "Just a bit" more than the PC disc controller lets you see... :) Now to find a disc with a slightly less ordinary format... perhaps a BBC Micro (Acorn DFS) disc? My target is still an Amiga disk, if I can get my hands on one with known contents. More to come when I've had some sleep... I'll see if I can get some photos of the hardware (and maybe schematics) uploaded in the next couple of days. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Sun Dec 6 19:05:18 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:05:18 +0100 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin From hachti at hachti.de Sun Dec 6 19:22:14 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:22:14 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 base In-Reply-To: <4B15C3D6.4070409@rogerwilco.org> References: <4B15AB9A.8020601@nktelco.net> <4B15C3D6.4070409@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B1C58C6.7070504@hachti.de> >> Does anyone have a base for an ASR-33 that they want to get rid of? Probably yes... Two problems: 1. It's located in Germany. 2. It's contaminated by an ASR33 on top - That's probably not the worst problem. If you want it..... -- Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Sun Dec 6 19:23:54 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:23:54 +0100 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working In-Reply-To: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de> Hi, > Does anyone want a HP Laserjet III? > I've one in unknown condition (probably working) to give away, too. In northern Germany. Free pickup. Next station in the device's bio will be the scrapyard. --Philipp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 19:29:41 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:29:41 -0500 Subject: Nitron Message-ID: I have a few Nitron NC7040LC chips - 24 pin DIPs. They have 1980 datecodes. Any idea what these might be? Who was Nitron anyway? I see some of the chip merchants on the net have some as well. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 19:31:43 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:31:43 -0500 Subject: Nitron (more) Message-ID: Nevermind - I found the datasheet. I had a typo the first time I searched. -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 19:47:52 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 19:47:52 -0600 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working In-Reply-To: <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de> References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912061747o2ce6e986k27f5860b8eb2aebf@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > > Does anyone want a HP Laserjet III? >> >> I've one in unknown condition (probably working) to give away, too. In > northern Germany. Free pickup. Next station in the device's bio will be the > scrapyard. > I have one, and could use memory, font upgrades, toner carts, and wear items like the fuser (or just that plastic gear on top of the fuser). Shipping from germany is probably a killer though. I also have a network upgrade for it, but it looks like it needs proprietary software so I can't make it work. If you have those disks, or if you have a different network board that would work, I'd be very interested in that as well. Thanks. brian From rickb at bensene.com Sun Dec 6 20:06:30 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:06:30 -0800 Subject: Nitron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will Donzelli wrote: > I have a few Nitron NC7040LC chips - 24 pin DIPs. They have 1980 > datecodes. Any idea what these might be? Who was Nitron anyway? > > I see some of the chip merchants on the net have some as well. The information contained herein was gathered from interviews with some of the players that were involved during the time, including Don Farina, Richard Craig, and Bob Norman. Some of the information I've gathered over time has some conflict in it, so take this all with a suitably sized grain of salt. Most of the information was gathered by talking to these folks about the development of General Micro-electronics and the Victor 3900 calculator, but sheer inertia led to discovery of some of what happened after GM-e disappeared. The history of Nitron is pretty twisted. It all started as a result of the purchase of General Micro-electronics by Philco-Ford after GM-e ran out of capital after an extremely intense effort to develop the Victor 3900 calculator (out of the first MOS LSI chips ever made for commercial use). Some of the folks that worked for GM-e left and founded a number of different IC companies..some making chips, and some serving as consultancies. GM-e was founded by a number of Fairchild folks who were frustrated with the fact that Fairchild didn't seem interested in pursuing MOS integrated circuits. There were two companies that were spinoffs or derivatives of spinoffs from GM-e, one called Cartesian, and another called IST (Integrated Semiconductor Technology) that ended up making LSI chipsets for calculators among other things. IST did the design work, and Cartesian fabricated the chips. Commodore became a main customer, and used the chips (initially a three-chip set). At one point, the founders of IST and Cartesian got together and decided that the two companies should merge, and a company called Veradyne was born. The timeframe isn't quite clear on this, but it was probably sometime in 1969. Veradyne fell on hard times sometime in mid-1972, and Commodore (Jack Tramiel) ended up purchasing the IST division of Veradyne in order to keep his calculator chips coming, calling the company the IST Division of Commodore Systems, Inc. Later in '72, McDonnell Douglas bought out the rest of Veradyne, and renamed the company Nitron. Frank Wanlass was made President. Nitron went on to be a contract design & manufacturer of LSI chips, including some single-chip calculator ICs that became fairly popular on the "build it yourself" market...bubble-packed chips sold at places like Poly Paks and others. >From the timeframe of around '73 or so, my trail goes cold. Clearly, Nitron must have existed sometime into the 1980's, given the dating on the chip you found. I have a Nitron single-chip calculator IC from '73 that is in a ceramic 40-pin dip with gold lid and pins. Hope this helps a little. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 6 20:31:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:31:28 -0800 Subject: Nitron In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B1BF880.24322.2359B59@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2009 at 18:06, Rick Bensene wrote: > >From the timeframe of around '73 or so, my trail goes cold. Clearly, > Nitron must have existed sometime into the 1980's, given the dating on > the chip you found. I have a Nitron single-chip calculator IC from > '73 that is in a ceramic 40-pin dip with gold lid and pins. The NC7040 appears to be an early 64x4 EEPROM, 2usec access time. The 7050 is a 256x4 EEPROM. The 7010 is a 256x2; the 7030 is an 8x8. According to what I can find, Nitron was a division McDonnell Douglas. See patent 4057821 for what appears to be the basic EAROM technology developed by Nitron. And see http://www.astronautix.com/astros/moore.htm for a bio of John R. Moore. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 6 20:33:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:33:33 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 0:56, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I got the first valid MFM decode using the "soft-PLL" decoder engine > about five minutes ago -- the first 16 bytes of an MS-DOS 5.0 boot > sector. I can see all the sector headers, address marks and pad bytes > displayed on the screen. "Just a bit" more than the PC disc controller > lets you see... :) Howso? I can see IAMs, CRCs, gap bytes, etc. using a standard PC controller. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 22:14:03 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 23:14:03 -0500 Subject: Nitron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >From the timeframe of around '73 or so, my trail goes cold. ?Clearly, > Nitron must have existed sometime into the 1980's, given the dating on > the chip you found. ?I have a ?Nitron single-chip calculator IC from '73 > that is in a ceramic 40-pin dip with gold lid and pins. Excellent information, thank you. My chips are purple and golds. I am not sure what they were used in - they were in a pile of parts for Control Data and/or Medlab equipment. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 7 00:08:50 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 22:08:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 7 00:16:58 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 22:16:58 -0800 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> Message-ID: At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin > >The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had to do with anything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 7 00:51:59 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 06:51:59 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Howso? I can see IAMs, CRCs, gap bytes, etc. using a standard PC > controller. Hm. That would be with the Read Track command, right? All the PCs I've tried to use that on just returned a 'bad command' response, or garbage... Modern PCs also don't seem to like reading single-density (FM-encoded) discs... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 01:27:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:27:13 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 6:51, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hm. That would be with the Read Track command, right? All the PCs I've > tried to use that on just returned a 'bad command' response, or > garbage... It works--the read track waits for the index mark and then begins transferring at the first DAM. If you tell the FDC that the track consists of one 8192 or 16384 byte sector, the transfer continues until that many bytes have been transfered, regardless of any subsequent index or address marks. It's worked that way since the original 8272/765-based PC controller went into a 5150. Fred probably knows where this was first exploited in a commercial product. The early versions of Harvard Presentation Graphics used a copy-protection scheme that embedded the letters "HGC" between two sectors on a 360K floppy track (as part of the inter-sector gap). Where the copy protection really kicks in is that the "Read Track" command doesn't re-sync the VCO on address marks, so write splices mess up the returned data. (FWIW, the WD17xx *does* resync on AMs when a track read is performed, as well as allow you to write a complete track (although some hex values are reserved) during a format operation. So you could conceivably rig up a Sanyo MBC-550 PC to dupe these. Or just get a CopyIIPC option board.) On a diskette produced on a write-the-entire-track formatter, such as a Formaster duplicator, everything returned by a Read Track looks great, as there are no write splices. However, a floppy produced with a disk copy program, each sector is written individually, with accompanying write splices, so even if you manage to create a format with HGC in the right place (hint: format 128-byte sectors with different length codes in their headers), it stands a good chance of not working. > Modern PCs also don't seem to like reading single-density (FM-encoded) > discs... Depends on the modern PC. Some modern PCs do better than vintage ones. The 5150 disk controller, for example, couldn't do it, but I've got a P2 and P3 systems here that works with FM just fine. Not to mention a raft of various ISA cards--and some external adapters, such as a Microsolutions Backpack drive, or the Rancho parallel-to- floppy adapter. --Chuck From cctalk at harlie.org Mon Dec 7 01:33:41 2009 From: cctalk at harlie.org (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:33:41 -0800 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B1CAFD5.80500@harlie.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> >>> http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin >> >> The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. > > Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had to > do with anything. The myspace page belongs to the self-described "artist" who was offering a microwaved Macintosh on eBay a few weeks ago for an exorbitant price. There was much discussion here at the time. He claimed it was the first off the production line, but I think he was confusing the model number on the back with a serial number, if not just outright making stuff up. --Bill From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 16:05:09 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:05:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find documentation for this unit? Google turns up mention of one being sold on eBay with a PDF of the manual, but the listing is long gone from eBay. Wayback machine turns up nothing. Steve -- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 7 03:54:43 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:54:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: > Ansgar Kueckes has released a new version of his "HPDrive" disc emulator > that works with HP 64000 logic development stations and HP 1000 MEF-series This is a great project... > minicomputers, in addition to the HP 9845. The emulator is hosted on a > Windows PC with a GPIB interface card and appears to the target system to ^^^^^^^^^^ ... but alas, this makes it pretty useless for me :-( Christian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 7 04:53:49 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:53:49 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a diskette produced on a write-the-entire-track formatter, such as > a Formaster duplicator, everything returned by a Read Track looks > great, as there are no write splices. However, a floppy produced > with a disk copy program, each sector is written individually, with > accompanying write splices, so even if you manage to create a format > with HGC in the right place (hint: format 128-byte sectors with > different length codes in their headers), it stands a good chance of > not working. Interesting way to do copy-protection... Yet another format that can't be (easily) created without a track-writer. Or an Amiga. The Amiga Copylock system is pretty unusual too -- that varies the bit-rate mid-track (by +/- 5% or so if memory serves). For that, even a trackwriter isn't enough unless it allows you to change the bit rate. (Reading FM on modern PCs) > Depends on the modern PC. Some modern PCs do better than vintage > ones. In my experience, the current generation of PCs can't handle FM at all. My 386 (with ISA floppy controller) is scarcely any better. The last time I wanted an image of a BBC Micro floppy, I ended up streaming it across the RS423 port at 9600bps. Ugh. Not fun. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 7 05:18:07 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:18:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In my experience, the current generation of PCs can't handle FM at all. My > 386 (with ISA floppy controller) is scarcely any better. I have an ASrock ALive SATA2 GLAN board (AMD Athlon X2 64) with DDR2 memory, PCI-express etc. which 1. handles two floppy drives and 2. handles FM just fine (reading and writing). As long as the SuperIO chip is not from Winbond, the chances are goot that the FDC supports FM mode. Christian From steve at cosam.org Mon Dec 7 06:03:15 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:03:15 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <4B1A4826.3000100@update.uu.se> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> <4B14C434.8070808@update.uu.se> <20091201152427.GA11581@Update.UU.SE> <4B183DF9.6020902@update.uu.se> <4B185A3B.1030801@dunnington.plus.com> <4B1992BA.2070202@update.uu.se> <4B1A4826.3000100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <95838e090912070403s1555fa8bj21fbf3b6964f4ced@mail.gmail.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Tomorrow I'll will try to boot an XXDP pack from RL01. I've hooked it up >> and the controller seems to talk to the drive at least. > > A short follow up. I've booted XXDP from one of my RL01 drives, the other > lights the FAULT light when I press LOAD. I hope XXDP can give me some more > information, but likely I'll replace it with an RL02 which I hope to revive. I'm sure XXDP will tell you more, but you can also get some basic diagnostic information back from the drive just by manipulating a couple of registers. Near the end of the technical manual there are some toggle-in programs which, although rudimentary, allow you to do some simple checks without even requiring a working boot device. According to my notes, the following can be used to read back the status of a drive: * Deposit a 3 into the DAR at 774404 (13 if you want to reset the drive) * Deposit a 4 into the CSR at 774400 (404, 1004 or 1404 for units 1, 2 or 3) * Wait for the operation to complete * Read off the contents of the MPR at 774406 If you do that when the fault light comes on (without resetting) it should tell you what kind of fault you're dealing with. There is a table somewhere in the manual that describes what the different bits of the MPR signify. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 10:50:37 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:50:37 -0600 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On a diskette produced on a write-the-entire-track formatter, such as >> a Formaster duplicator, everything returned by a Read Track looks >> great, as there are no write splices. However, a floppy produced with >> a disk copy program, each sector is written individually, with >> accompanying write splices, so even if you manage to create a format >> with HGC in the right place (hint: format 128-byte sectors with >> different length codes in their headers), it stands a good chance of >> not working. > > Interesting way to do copy-protection... Yet another format that can't > be (easily) created without a track-writer. Or an Amiga. Do you have any kind of estimate for when this will be finished (to the point of being releasable - sounds like there might be ongoing firmware patches?). I'd be interested in buying one I think (even though I try to avoid USB if I can). > In my experience, the current generation of PCs can't handle FM at all. > My 386 (with ISA floppy controller) is scarcely any better. I've got three IBM ones from some IBM desktop or other (I got them as boards, so unfortunately have no idea which system they came from) which are extremely good - they'd read and write FM happily, and would cope with 128-byte sectors sizes too. The only downside to them is that they sometimes throw up CMOS errors and refuse to boot, which makes my plans to turn one into a headless remotely-driven system a bit problematic. My experience has been that it's "reasonably"* easy to get hold of a PC that'll read FM (at least at 256bps and above) - but difficult to get one that'll also write. * i.e. source a pile of 'em and there'll probably be a good one in there somewhere. > The last time I wanted an image of a BBC Micro floppy, I ended up > streaming it across the RS423 port at 9600bps. Ugh. Not fun. I've done exactly that with a 20MB ST506 drive before and a modified copy of xfer - that on a drive with failing bearings. Something like 7 hours of high-pitched bearing scream later... the drive held together though, thankfully. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 7 11:54:23 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:54:23 -0700 Subject: Complete Collection Sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 06 Dec 2009 13:33:20 -0600. <3D85959C7FED4F008E6F21935A3F3898@ASUS32> Message-ID: Where are you located? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:31:25 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:31:25 -0300 Subject: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE') References: <683901.44432.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><20091204144217.L74492@shell.lmi.net> <3C672165-0F17-404B-A211-B80C5ED2E891@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <1a7101ca7774$69ebe760$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too little, >> too >> late) > > 40mb. I inherited a drive and some disks... I find it remarkable that > they managed to fit a spinning-removable-media drive inside a standard > PCMCIA card. Somehow, I don't really feel like trusting it to anything > important, though :). > ( I also have an mp3 player that uses the discs... if a 40mb disc could > hold more than 10 songs it might have been a good idea...) I believe there were 20mb versions, I remember (faintly) I had one PCMCIA drive with a cartridge Wait, I have the photo! Lemmesee...hmm...too low resolution for anything be seen :( From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:47:01 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:47:01 -0300 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de> <6dbe3c380912061747o2ce6e986k27f5860b8eb2aebf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1b4601ca7776$7c540d90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I have one, and could use memory, font upgrades, toner carts, and wear > items > like the fuser (or just that plastic gear on top of the fuser). Shipping > from germany is probably a killer though. The gear is **very cheap** in Brazil. Cheap as "much less than you would pay for shipping". Printer supplies doesn't have it for a buck? > I also have a network upgrade for it, but it looks like it needs > proprietary > software so I can't make it work. If you have those disks, or if you have > a > different network board that would work, I'd be very interested in that as > well. Thanks. Which network board is it? Jetdirect? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:49:26 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:49:26 -0300 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger References: Message-ID: <1b4701ca7776$7da6a540$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Does anyone know where I can find documentation for this unit? AFAIK, this debugger was used with Sega Master System (SMS) units. Try www.assembler.org or something like that specialized in dev kits for videogames... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 12:50:37 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:50:37 -0500 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) Message-ID: Previously in this thread: >> But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too little, >> too late) > > 40mb. I inherited a drive and some disks... I find it remarkable that > they managed to fit a spinning-removable-media drive inside a standard > PCMCIA card. Somehow, I don't really feel like trusting it to anything > important, though :). I have a couple of these I picked up cheap from a surplus company a few years back. I would never rely on these as a primary backup, but as a fun little device, they are amusing to watch work. My thought when I first saw them was that they reminded me of the storage device show in the alien tech "museum" in "Men in Black", where Tommy Lee Jones picks one up and says, "now I'll have to buy the White Album all over again". It has tempted me to rip my real White Album to Click and see if I could fit the Iomega PCMCIA card into a 3.5" PCMCIA-IDE adapter frame and mount _that_ in a 3.5"-5.25" adapter frame, then mount *that* in my Apex DVD/CD player in place of the IDE DVD-ROM drive. A long way for a gag, but I think it would work. -ethan P.S. - in the box with my Click stuff is a CF-to-Click adapter - the idea was you'd take a 16MB or 32MB CF card from your camera, drop in a Click disk, then siphon off your pictures without a PC in-between. It was a fine idea except it was a) expensive, and b) camera cards quickly blew past the size of a Click disk. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 12:59:51 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:59:51 -0600 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working In-Reply-To: <1b4601ca7776$7c540d90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de> <6dbe3c380912061747o2ce6e986k27f5860b8eb2aebf@mail.gmail.com> <1b4601ca7776$7c540d90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912071059q19dbff9fma5e302cc18fe2ae7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > I also have a network upgrade for it, but it looks like it needs > proprietary > >> software so I can't make it work. If you have those disks, or if you have >> a >> different network board that would work, I'd be very interested in that as >> well. Thanks. >> > > Which network board is it? Jetdirect? > I think so. I posted about it a couple months back. I think the consensus was that it requires long missing proprietary software. I'm hoping some third party made a network board that could be made to work today. If not, I can use the parallel port. There's also those network print server thingies that use the parallel port on the printer. brian From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 7 13:01:51 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:01:51 -0800 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: <1b4701ca7776$7da6a540$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <1b4701ca7776$7da6a540$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B1D511F.4040708@bitsavers.org> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > www.assembler.org What an ANNOYING, twitchy web site! Guess I'm not l33t enough to enjoy it. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:09:12 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:09:12 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It has tempted me to rip my real White Album to Click and see if I > could fit the Iomega PCMCIA card into a 3.5" PCMCIA-IDE adapter frame > and mount _that_ in a 3.5"-5.25" adapter frame, then mount *that* in > my Apex DVD/CD player in place of the IDE DVD-ROM drive. > > A long way for a gag, but I think it would work. > I really enjoy this sort of silliness. It's in line with my "how much can I cram into this case" fetish. I've been seriously eyeing those ide to scsi adapters for the Macs I have. Then you could CF->ide->scsi. Those CF ide adapters also have me thinking about those promise IDE raid controllers. One of them I know can stripe across four drives. Four CF cards in that configuration would be fun to create, and fast. Although you'd probably run into other performance barriers first, like the speed of the PCI bus. A Ridiculous Array of Inexpensive Disks. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 14:14:38 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:14:38 -0300 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de><6dbe3c380912061747o2ce6e986k27f5860b8eb2aebf@mail.gmail.com><1b4601ca7776$7c540d90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380912071059q19dbff9fma5e302cc18fe2ae7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1b6401ca777a$efa25870$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I think so. I posted about it a couple months back. I think the consensus > was that it requires long missing proprietary software. I'm hoping some > third party made a network board that could be made to work today. If > not, > I can use the parallel port. There's also those network print server > thingies that use the parallel port on the printer. Brian, AFAIK the jetdirect cards does not need any software, at least for 98/xp computers. Does it creates a new menu on your printer? If you print a test page it makes any references to the network controller, with configurations, et al? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 13:33:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:33:02 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 10:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > Do you have any kind of estimate for when this will be finished (to > the point of being releasable - sounds like there might be ongoing > firmware patches?). I'd be interested in buying one I think (even > though I try to avoid USB if I can). Over at VC Forum, I've been working on a low-cost alternative using a AVR (or pair of them) and the timer "capture" feature at a 16MHz sample rate. One objective was to design something that anyone could build, so the SMT (ATMega128) uC that I've been using is out. I'm migrating the design to a two-uC (ATMega162 and ATTiny2313) approach. The 'tiny handles all of the "mechanica" aspects of drive management, such as motor control, drive select and seeking, while the 'mega handles the sampling and communication with the host. Although I could have used V-USB to provide USB functionality directly, I decided to use RS-232C instead, as serial-to-USB adapters are cheap and plentiful. The output is essentially Catweasel-style sampling, with the leading index edge signified by a 00 byte in the sample stream. Full 256- count resolution is thus available. I/O is a track-at-a-time and decoding and encoding is handled by the host. There's a 128K sample buffer, which can be upgraded to 512K by simply swapping the SRAM chip. Programming of the uCs is in-circuit and can be done with a simple PC parallel-port adapter. Thus far, I've done MFM, FM and Apple II floppies in the host software with very good results. Pricing should be very good--the Mega is <$6 Qantity 1; the Tiny is about $1.50; the 128K SRAM is less than $5; other chips are pretty much commodity items. This is not to take away from Phil's fine work, but an attempt to economically hit most of the common formats that a hobbyist is likely to encounter with something that anyone who can solder can build. Eventually, I'm looking at porting the design to one of the new NXP Cortex CPUs which can be had in PLCC. But first things first... --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:33:54 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:33:54 -0600 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working In-Reply-To: <1b6401ca777a$efa25870$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C592A.6080709@hachti.de> <6dbe3c380912061747o2ce6e986k27f5860b8eb2aebf@mail.gmail.com> <1b4601ca7776$7c540d90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380912071059q19dbff9fma5e302cc18fe2ae7@mail.gmail.com> <1b6401ca777a$efa25870$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912071133k20e41219p52728b85d74feefc@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > Brian, AFAIK the jetdirect cards does not need any software, at least for > 98/xp computers. Does it creates a new menu on your printer? If you print a > test page it makes any references to the network controller, with > configurations, et al? > No new menus. Nothing on the test page. I'd think it was broken, but it does light up when you plug in the network cable. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 14:59:32 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:59:32 -0300 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Over at VC Forum, I've been working on a low-cost alternative using a > AVR (or pair of them) and the timer "capture" feature at a 16MHz > sample rate. One objective was to design something that anyone > could build, so the SMT (ATMega128) uC that I've been using is out. I've done a single sided board using atmega 128 and soldered it myself. It is easy if you learn how to do. http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/eletronica/tts/1.JPG > Thus far, I've done MFM, FM and Apple II floppies in the host > software with very good results. Congratulations!!! :oD > Eventually, I'm looking at porting the design to one of the new NXP > Cortex CPUs which can be had in PLCC. But first things first... Noooooo :( Keep the work with AVR! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 15:01:54 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:01:54 -0300 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger References: <1b4701ca7776$7da6a540$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D511F.4040708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1bb001ca7780$b1383310$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> www.assembler.org > What an ANNOYING, twitchy web site! > Guess I'm not l33t enough to enjoy it. **very** sorry. That is what happens when you trust your soft memory. http://www.assemblergames.com is the right site, but seems the "exposition" with various dev kits vanished, I'm still looking for that. Hmmm, seems the museum is offline :( I took some threads to read, but all states the same, the museum is still offline, and the owner seems to have endured some problems in an operation :( Anyway, that can helps, who knows? Zax ICD-378 Z80 Debugger Vintage Computer Festival vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:38:39 CDT 2005 a.. Previous message: Zax ICD-378 Z80 Debugger b.. Next message: VTSERVER booting c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find documentation and/or software for a Zax > ICD-378 Z80 in-circuit debugger? > > Picked one up (for $15.00!) at the MIT Flea Market today. > > Any leads appreciated! Hi Steven. I have it! Contact me off-list and we'll make arrangements. We can also hopefully finish up discussions on that trade we've been talking about ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Dec 7 14:23:36 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:23:36 -0500 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912071133k20e41219p52728b85d74feefc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <1b6401ca777a$efa25870$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380912071133k20e41219p52728b85d74feefc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200912071523.36100.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 December 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < > > pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > > Brian, AFAIK the jetdirect cards does not need any software, at > > least for 98/xp computers. Does it creates a new menu on your > > printer? If you print a test page it makes any references to the > > network controller, with configurations, et al? > > No new menus. Nothing on the test page. I'd think it was broken, > but it does light up when you plug in the network cable. That doesn't mean that it's not broken. I'd suspect that it is. A common way for newer JD cards to fail causes the printer to no longer be able to talk to them. It rarely takes much to be working on a device for the ethernet port to show link... If it takes an MIO JetDirect card (the common one for LaserJet 5 and older printers, maybe 6 also), you should be able to get a new card for $5 or less. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 15:41:44 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:41:44 -0300 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk><1b6401ca777a$efa25870$0301a8c0@Alexandre><6dbe3c380912071133k20e41219p52728b85d74feefc@mail.gmail.com> <200912071523.36100.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1c0101ca7786$67c4bc70$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> No new menus. Nothing on the test page. I'd think it was broken, >> but it does light up when you plug in the network cable. > That doesn't mean that it's not broken. I'd suspect that it is. A > common way for newer JD cards to fail causes the printer to no longer be > able to talk to them. It rarely takes much to be working on a device > for the ethernet port to show link... > If it takes an MIO JetDirect card (the common one for LaserJet 5 and > older printers, maybe 6 also), you should be able to get a new card for > $5 or less. No Pat, AFAIK the SX-engine JetDirect is a different beastie. Do you have the part number of your JetDirect handy? From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 14:49:17 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 14:49:17 -0600 Subject: Offer: HP Laserjet III and spare parts, non-working In-Reply-To: <1c0101ca7786$67c4bc70$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B17F9AF.1090704@philpem.me.uk> <1b6401ca777a$efa25870$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380912071133k20e41219p52728b85d74feefc@mail.gmail.com> <200912071523.36100.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1c0101ca7786$67c4bc70$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912071249k26b15c5fsd411f51142c5cb0c@mail.gmail.com> n Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > No Pat, AFAIK the SX-engine JetDirect is a different beastie. Do you have > the part number of your JetDirect handy? > I'll try to pull it out when i get home. It's looking like I have to work tonight though. brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 15:06:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:06:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 7, 9 10:54:43 am Message-ID: > > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: > > Ansgar Kueckes has released a new version of his "HPDrive" disc emulator > > that works with HP 64000 logic development stations and HP 1000 MEF-series > > This is a great project... I would love to see sometimg similar, but a stand-alone (no PC) device. It should be possible to do it with a microcontroller [1] and some flash memory device (CF card or whatever) and not a lot more. I think you could bit-bang the HPIB protocol with little, if any, external logic. But I don't feel able to write the firmware. [1] Yes, I did say microcontroller. It would be ridiculous to try to do this with a board of random logic :-) It would be a heck of a lot of fun trying to implement the SS/80 protocol using state machines, though . > > minicomputers, in addition to the HP 9845. The emulator is hosted on a > > Windows PC with a GPIB interface card and appears to the target system to > ^^^^^^^^^^ > ... but alas, this makes it pretty useless for me :-( And me. And from what I recall he doesn't release the source code, so you can't port it. There's another problem too. It doesn't (and can't) work with GPIB cards in the PC using the TMS9914 chip. IIRC it's impossible to make an HP-compatible disk unit using a 9914 to talk to the HPIB, one part of the protocol requires you to do something the 9914 can't do (I forget the exact details). You can make a host to talk to HP drives using a 9914, though HP computers that use these drives used to use 9914s (things like the HP120, HP150, HP9000/200, etc). Then they went over to their own Medusa chip (1TL1 IIRC).The drives started out using the Intel 8291 HPIB interface (this one can do whatever it is that the 9914 can't), IIRC some later (for me) ones used the Medusa. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 15:20:55 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:20:55 -0600 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Dec 2009 at 10:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Do you have any kind of estimate for when this will be finished (to >> the point of being releasable - sounds like there might be ongoing >> firmware patches?). I'd be interested in buying one I think (even >> though I try to avoid USB if I can). > > Over at VC Forum, I've been working on a low-cost alternative using a > AVR (or pair of them) and the timer "capture" feature at a 16MHz > sample rate. One objective was to design something that anyone > could build, so the SMT (ATMega128) uC that I've been using is out. That sounds good. I think various calculations have been pretty much done to death over the years, but do you anticipate 16MHz being enough, or are there likely to be some things that it won't handle? (I kept all prior threads on this kind of thing, but they're a bit lost amongst the noise right now!) I like the fact it's RS232. Like you say, it'd be easy to add a converter to give USB functionality, but a bit more difficult to go the other way. > The output is essentially Catweasel-style sampling That's good too, I think - I'm sure the way forward is to make the custom hardware do the bare minimum, then allow the community to develop the tools to do the more complex decoding/encoding work on regular PC hardware (which I think is also Phil's approach) > Pricing should be very good--the Mega is <$6 Qantity 1; the Tiny is > about $1.50; the 128K SRAM is less than $5; other chips are pretty > much commodity items. > > This is not to take away from Phil's fine work, but an attempt to > economically hit most of the common formats that a hobbyist is likely > to encounter with something that anyone who can solder can build. Well, I assume tools can be made to translate between formats, in which case it should matter little how many of these projects there are out there... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 15:22:55 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:22:55 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B1D01AF.4205.DABDCD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 17:59, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I've done a single sided board using atmega 128 and soldered it > myself. > It is easy if you learn how to do. I do it myself. But it's not something the average hobbyist with perhaps a month's worth of knowing which end of a soldering iron is hot is likely to pull off successfully. PTH PCBs tend to be more expensive than SMT-oriented ones, but any idiot can assemble one of those. Decades of Heathkits have demonstrated that. > Noooooo :( Keep the work with AVR! :D Have you looked at the latest NXP Cortex offerings? 50MHz 32-bit ARM and very inexpensive ($1). At least that's what NXP says. http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1642.html --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 15:36:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:36:36 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1D04E4.14467.E74504@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 15:20, Jules Richardson wrote: > That sounds good. I think various calculations have been pretty much > done to death over the years, but do you anticipate 16MHz being > enough, or are there likely to be some things that it won't handle? (I > kept all prior threads on this kind of thing, but they're a bit lost > amongst the noise right now!) It handles 1.44M PC floppies just fine. 2.88M may be an issue, but I haven't tried those yet (they'll need the 512K sample SRAM). Data transfer is XMODEM right now, as I figure that almost every platform with a serial port can handle that some way. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 17:14:11 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:14:11 -0300 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D01AF.4205.DABDCD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1c9201ca7794$05966d10$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Have you looked at the latest NXP Cortex offerings? 50MHz 32-bit ARM > and very inexpensive ($1). At least that's what NXP says. > http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1642.html Try to buy one here in Brazil :o) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 7 17:50:30 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > I really enjoy this sort of silliness. It's in line with my "how much can I > cram into this case" fetish. I've been seriously eyeing those ide to scsi > adapters for the Macs I have. Then you could CF->ide->scsi. Those CF ide > adapters also have me thinking about those promise IDE raid controllers. > One of them I know can stripe across four drives. Four CF cards in that > configuration would be fun to create, and fast. Although you'd probably run > into other performance barriers first, like the speed of the PCI bus. > > A Ridiculous Array of Inexpensive Disks. I remember seeing a RAID5 made of thumbdrives a while ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doug at stillhq.com Mon Dec 7 17:53:46 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:53:46 +1100 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <1c9201ca7794$05966d10$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D01AF.4205.DABDCD@cclist.sydex.com> <1c9201ca7794$05966d10$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B1D958A.2050509@stillhq.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Have you looked at the latest NXP Cortex offerings? 50MHz 32-bit ARM >> and very inexpensive ($1). At least that's what NXP says. >> http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1642.html > > Try to buy one here in Brazil :o) We have the same issue here in Canberra, the capital city of Australia - Just use the internet for all of your orders, then it doesn't matter any more. :-) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Dec 7 18:10:54 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:10:54 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1D958A.2050509@stillhq.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D01AF.4205.DABDCD@cclist.sydex.com> <1c9201ca7794$05966d10$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D958A.2050509@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4B1D998E.9050000@mindspring.com> Doug Jackson wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Have you looked at the latest NXP Cortex offerings? 50MHz 32-bit >>> ARM and very inexpensive ($1). At least that's what NXP says. >>> http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1642.html >> >> Try to buy one here in Brazil :o) > We have the same issue here in Canberra, the capital city of Australia > - Just use the internet for all of your orders, then it doesn't matter > any more. :-) > That pricing was for 10K piece quantities ... unless you are going to build a ~boatload~ of these boards, the small quantity price (or buying thru a distributor) will be significantly higher. Most of the LPC21xx series are US$8-US$12 each in small quantity from www.mouser.com, for example. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 7 18:21:08 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:21:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper Message-ID: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Given the recent iteration of the recurrent "how will we save our data in N years" thread, where N is Sufficiently_Large, I discovered this interesting tool. http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/ There is something terribly attractive about this. I'm tempted to play with it to see how practical it is, after I've ported it to Mac OS X, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Wagner's music is better than it sounds. -- Mark Twain --------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 19:39:38 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:39:38 -0300 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <1baf01ca7780$afffda20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D01AF.4205.DABDCD@cclist.sydex.com><1c9201ca7794$05966d10$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D958A.2050509@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <1d3c01ca77a7$6b8ee0d0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Try to buy one here in Brazil :o) > We have the same issue here in Canberra, the capital city of Australia - > Just use the internet for all of your orders, then it doesn't matter any > more. :-) Ah, OzTralia. It works for you, but doesn't work for us. - We have customs' taxes. Something around 60 to 100% of the price of the product AND the freight. - It takes ages to arrive here. - You gotta have an international credit card, to buy on shops - For paypal use, you ALSO have to use an international credit card, because brazilian debt cards - although issued by VISA - are not accepted by paypal - Ah, in Ebay, usually sellers don't ship to Brazil, even if I have a confirmed paypal address - International credit cards in Brazil aren't so easy to have as in other countries. So, internet ordering isn't always an option :o) From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:45:03 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:45:03 -0500 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1DA18F.2040507@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > I remember seeing a RAID5 made of thumbdrives a while ago. There's always the FRAID. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 19:08:17 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:08:17 -0500 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Given the recent iteration of the recurrent "how will we save our data in N > years" thread, where N is Sufficiently_Large, I discovered this interesting > tool. > > ? ? ? ?http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/ > > There is something terribly attractive about this. I'm tempted to play with > it to see how practical it is, after I've ported it to Mac OS X, of course. Interesting, but I think very impractical for use with inkjet or laser printers. Inkjets can blur slightly over time, and laser printers have that awful sticky problem. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 7 19:32:55 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:32:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > Interesting, but I think very impractical for use with inkjet or laser > printers. Inkjets can blur slightly over time, and laser printers have > that awful sticky problem. Has anyone done any work on how long it takes for the sticky problem to show itself? I remember some in 1989 or so that got sticky in a little over a year. I can't remember much stuff newer than that going sticky. Maybe modern toner doesn't do that anymore? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 7 19:28:56 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:28:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, David Griffith wrote: >> printers. Inkjets can blur slightly over time, and laser printers have >> that awful sticky problem. > > Has anyone done any work on how long it takes for the sticky problem to show > itself? I remember some in 1989 or so that got sticky in a little over a > year. I can't remember much stuff newer than that going sticky. Maybe modern > toner doesn't do that anymore? My experience seems to indicate that it is a question of what you have the printout next to. Three ring binders seem to be a problem. Other than that I've rarely seen any issue. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 19:39:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:39:22 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1D998E.9050000@mindspring.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D958A.2050509@stillhq.com>, <4B1D998E.9050000@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4B1D3DCA.12358.1C5864B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 16:10, Don North wrote: > That pricing was for 10K piece quantities ... unless you are going to > build a ~boatload~ of these boards, the small quantity price (or > buying thru a distributor) will be significantly higher. Most of the > LPC21xx series are US$8-US$12 each in small quantity from > www.mouser.com, for example. I'm guessing that the M0 Cortexes will probably be $5-7 when purchased from the usual Chinese sellers, or about the same price range as the AVR Megas, with more bang for the buck... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 19:41:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:41:27 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <1d3c01ca77a7$6b8ee0d0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <1d3c01ca77a7$6b8ee0d0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B1D3E47.7507.1C76DF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 22:39, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > - International credit cards in Brazil aren't so easy to have as > in other countries. > > So, internet ordering isn't always an option :o) I suspect that this may change with the Olympics coming to Brazil. Vendors have to have some reasonable way of doing long-distance business. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 19:48:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:48:27 -0800 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com>, , Message-ID: <4B1D3FEB.15918.1CDD81D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 17:32, David Griffith wrote: > Has anyone done any work on how long it takes for the sticky problem > to show itself? I remember some in 1989 or so that got sticky in a > little over a year. I can't remember much stuff newer than that going > sticky. Maybe modern toner doesn't do that anymore? Shades of PaperBytes and Cauzin Softstrip. My experience has xerox copy/laser printout stored in manila file folders to be intact with minimal sticking after 30 years. The paper may also be an issue. What I didn't expect is old impact printer copy (printed with a fabric ribbon on green-bar tractor-feed paper) to be subject to fading. I've got copy from the 80's printed on various impact printers that's barely legible after being stored in a file cabinet the entire time. I wonder if inkjet printout will suffer the same fate. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 19:57:15 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:57:15 -0500 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <4B1D3FEB.15918.1CDD81D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> <4B1D3FEB.15918.1CDD81D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I wonder if inkjet printout will suffer the same fate. There are archival ink cartridges, but they are expensive as hell. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 19:58:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Has anyone done any work on how long it takes for the sticky problem to show > itself? ?I remember some in 1989 or so that got sticky in a little over a > year. ?I can't remember much stuff newer than that going sticky. Maybe > modern toner doesn't do that anymore? Who knows? Why gamble? -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 7 20:19:26 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> <4B1D3FEB.15918.1CDD81D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > There are archival ink cartridges, but they are expensive as hell. and "acid-free" paper Something like Cauzin Softstrip sounds promising, but in x years, you might have to build your own reader, and will others remember the encoding? (think quipo!) Have we even succeeded in figuring out Stonehenge and the Antikythera mechanism? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 7 20:25:28 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> <4B1D3FEB.15918.1CDD81D@cclist.sydex.com> <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> There are archival ink cartridges, but they are expensive as hell. > > and "acid-free" paper > > Something like Cauzin Softstrip sounds promising, but in x years, you > might have to build your own reader, and will others remember the > encoding? (think quipo!) > > Have we even succeeded in figuring out Stonehenge and the Antikythera > mechanism? If I were to sit down and designs something like this, I'd make sure it would be easily reverse-engineerable. If we can assume The Future will have scanners and computers capable of making use of them, each page would have some sort of legend explaining how the dots are organized. That should do it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 7 20:35:14 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:35:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> <4B1D3FEB.15918.1CDD81D@cclist.sydex.com> <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20091207182855.F21594@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, David Griffith wrote: > If I were to sit down and designs something like this, I'd make sure it > would be easily reverse-engineerable. If we can assume The Future will > have scanners and computers capable of making use of them, each page would > have some sort of legend explaining how the dots are organized. That > should do it. What encoding shall the legend be in? . . . and you will need some sort of "Rosetta Stone" multiple versions of that, in case nobody reads English any more. Yeah, I know, that's ridiculous. Society will never again forget entire written languages, as they did with Egyptioan hieroglyphics and quipu. Besides, we could always send John Titor back for some hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 7 20:46:17 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:46:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Dec 7, 9 06:19:26 pm" Message-ID: <200912080246.nB82kHUu012368@floodgap.com> > > There are archival ink cartridges, but they are expensive as hell. > > and "acid-free" paper > > Something like Cauzin Softstrip sounds promising, but in x years, you > might have to build your own reader, and will others remember the > encoding? (think quipo!) The idea I was thinking of is some algorithm to turn an image of a binary encoded into a paper document, back into a binary. The problem with the Softstrip was the paucity of readers and stuff to read with the readers, but here it's just scanners and printers. If you can make an intermediate image out of the document, you can decode it. I don't think people will have forgotten how to decode a P6 PNM in the 23rd century -- what's to decode? > Have we even succeeded in figuring out Stonehenge and the Antikythera > mechanism? Yes, but I think the problem was that they deleted the source code out of github. Those nuts. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -- Groucho Marx --------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 7 20:50:09 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:50:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >> configuration would be fun to create, and fast. Although you'd probably >> run >> into other performance barriers first, like the speed of the PCI bus. >> >> A Ridiculous Array of Inexpensive Disks. > > I remember seeing a RAID5 made of thumbdrives a while ago. It's been done with USB floppy drives too. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 7 20:58:29 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:58:29 -0500 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:19:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: >Have we even succeeded in figuring out Stonehenge and the Antikythera >mechanism? Stonehenge yes most definately. the Antikythera mechanism many still feal no. The other Bob From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 21:22:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:22:52 -0800 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com>, <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4B1D560C.10702.2244685@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 18:25, David Griffith wrote: > If I were to sit down and designs something like this, I'd make sure > it would be easily reverse-engineerable. If we can assume The Future > will have scanners and computers capable of making use of them, each > page would have some sort of legend explaining how the dots are > organized. That should do it. Engraved on a gold-plated tantalum sheet, no doubt. Etched into a slab of irridium would also do the trick. If it were cut into granite, it'd probably end up as someone's kitchen counter. If metallic however, the scrappers will do it in. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 7 21:23:58 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:23:58 -0800 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor Message-ID: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> Picked up an old terminal in very nice cosmetic condition; it works fine barring a bit of visual "jitter" on the display -- not sure how best to describe it. The picture is clear and sharp but occasionally a few scanlines will spike off to the right a bit. Coinciding with this spiking are tiny crackling noises from inside the monitor. (Or at least it seems like they coincide, obviously I can't verify this.) I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on this list. I've run it with the cover off and the lights off and I can see no evidence of sparking or other visible discharge. Any thoughts? I hate working on CRTs. I'm not great with electronics (getting slowly better) but I can handle debugging low voltage stuff. Fixing monitors scares the heck out of me... - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 7 21:37:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:37:12 -0800 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B1D5968.32271.231676B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 19:23, Josh Dersch wrote: > I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on > this list. I've run it with the cover off and the lights off and I > can see no evidence of sparking or other visible discharge. > > Any thoughts? My first instinct says "flyback transformer". An arc between windings or the core/frame can produce the effect you describe without anything visible showing. --Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Dec 7 21:39:43 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:39:43 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Monday, December 7, 2009 at 10:54, Christian Corti wrote: > > Windows PC.... > ^^^^^^^^^^ > ... but alas, this makes it pretty useless for me :-( I use a dedicated "junk" PC for this. I picked up a few 64 MB 400 MHz "no- name" systems with Win98 on them for free. These make great disc drives for HP 64000 stations. The 64000 has pretty stringent timing requirements, and it'll report disc failures if there is any appreciable delay in response to HP-IB commands. You might use a very fast shared system, but Windows doesn't really have deterministic response. A simple dedicated system is probably more reliable as an emulator. The 1000 OS (RTE) isn't quite so picky, so a shared system might work OK. -- Dave From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 21:46:24 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:46:24 -0600 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912071946m72398327p37d75695f88b51bb@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked up an old terminal in very nice cosmetic condition; > Funny you should post this. I was about to post about my Sony Multiscan 400PS monitor. It flashes on and off about once a second every second. I don't know much about how to fix monitors. I know the theory, but wouldn't begin to know how to fix one. I remember from years ago that you could buy a sort of kit containing maybe half a dozen parts, caps, large resistors, etc. If you replace all of the parts in the bag, it fixes something like 99% of the problems that model usually gets and prevents more problems in the future. I'm not sure if these sorts of kits are still available though, or where to get them. brian From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Dec 7 21:50:30 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:50:30 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 7, 9 10:54:43 am, Message-ID: On Monday, December 7, 2009 at 21:06, Tony Duell wrote: > It doesn't (and can't) work with GPIB cards in the PC using the TMS9914 > chip. IIRC it's impossible to make an HP-compatible disk unit using a > 9914 to talk to the HPIB, one part of the protocol requires you to do > something the 9914 can't do (I forget the exact details). The HPDrive page states that the 9914 cannot implement the Amigo Identify command, as it uses a non-standard sequence (Untalk followed by a secondary addressed to the device). Yet, I don't understand this claim, as my HP 9134A disc drive uses a 9914A as its HP-IB controller, and it certainly responds to the Identify command. If the 9914 in a 9134A can implement Identify, it is not clear to me why a software emulator using a 9914-based card can't implement Identify as well. -- Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 23:04:04 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:04:04 -0600 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B1DDE44.3030006@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> There is something terribly attractive about this. I'm tempted to play with >> it to see how practical it is, after I've ported it to Mac OS X, of course. > > Interesting, but I think very impractical for use with inkjet or laser > printers. Inkjets can blur slightly over time, and laser printers have > that awful sticky problem. Refresh your data by photocopying often? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 8 00:26:07 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:26:07 -0700 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <4B1DDE44.3030006@gmail.com> References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> <4B1DDE44.3030006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1DF17F.2080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: >> Interesting, but I think very impractical for use with inkjet or laser >> printers. Inkjets can blur slightly over time, and laser printers have >> that awful sticky problem. > > Refresh your data by photocopying often? Hmm at 25 cents a sheet ... From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 06:41:00 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:41:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: >> Ansgar Kueckes has released a new version of his "HPDrive" disc emulator >> that works with HP 64000 logic development stations and HP 1000 MEF-series > > This is a great project... > >> minicomputers, in addition to the HP 9845. The emulator is hosted on a >> Windows PC with a GPIB interface card and appears to the target system to > ^^^^^^^^^^ > ... but alas, this makes it pretty useless for me :-( Correct me if I'm wrong, but in theory can't an IEEE compatible parallel port emulate a GPIB with the correct software and cable adapter? -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 06:42:07 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:42:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find documentation for this unit? > > Google turns up mention of one being sold on eBay with a PDF of the manual, > but the listing is long gone from eBay. Wayback machine turns up nothing. Quick followup: I was able to obtain a PDF of the ICD-278 manual from the person who bought that unit, but would still be interested in the actual _3_78 manual and/or any support software (ZICE). Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 7 13:26:29 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:26:29 -0800 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: <4B1D511F.4040708@bitsavers.org> References: <1b4701ca7776$7da6a540$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B1D511F.4040708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B1D56E5.4050208@jwsss.com> I went through the site with lynx and with a source viewer to see if there was anything that a "clever" one could Discover. The only useful link at all (as far as the site owner) seems to be a link to sell some book on amazon. There was also a list of "contributors" who I suspect may not know they were contributors. To what the contributed was not stated but I suspect it was the book. No useful links and a lot of annoying javascript, server side perl, and very annoying graphics. If anyone ever has a link on a site like this either warn that it is possibly a malicious site, or point directly to the payload if that is possible w/o scripting. I doubt that there is anything there, but maybe someone found other than annoying browser tricks there. The problem with sites like this if they are well intentioned is that they appear much the same as sites which attempt to break out of browsers and do harm, and I admit this one may well have done this. If if is a day zero exploit type site then it is even worse to have posted a link here. And I'll grant to the posters they probably have no control over the link if the site owner is changing its content. Al Kossow wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> www.assembler.org > > What an ANNOYING, twitchy web site! > > Guess I'm not l33t enough to enjoy it. > > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 8 01:13:12 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:13:12 -0500 Subject: another magazine article request Message-ID: <4B1DFC88.8030700@snarc.net> Anyone have the Nov. 1973 issue of Datamation? I'm looking for a scan of the article titled "APL for teachers". From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 8 01:58:42 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:58:42 +0000 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <200912080021.nB80L8xo018936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B1E0732.6030505@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/12/2009 01:08, William Donzelli wrote: > Interesting, but I think very impractical for use with inkjet or laser > printers. Inkjets can blur slightly over time, and laser printers have > that awful sticky problem. The sticky problem occurs if you have the printout next to some plastic containing plasticisers. PVC is a prime culprit, but printouts stored in ring binders with a sheet of acetate between the binder and the prints seem to survive. I've had laser printout in binders like that for 20+ years and no sign of stickiness. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 03:20:29 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:20:29 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > but do you anticipate 16MHz being enough, > or are there likely to be some things that it won't handle? (I kept all > prior threads on this kind of thing, but they're a bit lost amongst the > noise right now!) I'd think it'd be fine up to about 500kbps. I'm using a 40MHz clock on mine because it's a multiple of most standard data rates. 1Mbps, 500kbps and 250kbps are all integer multiples of 40MHz. This helps reduce timing jitter -- the FPGA can't count fractions-of-a-clock. It also makes the math a bit easier when you start decoding the data! The biggest problem with low sample rates is that the timing values tend to "merge" together. When there's not much space between the peaks on the histogram, it gets to be a pain to decode. > I like the fact it's RS232. Like you say, it'd be easy to add a > converter to give USB functionality, but a bit more difficult to go the > other way. The problem, of course, is the limited speed of RS-232... 115200 Baud is only 11.25Kbytes/sec; the USB interface can handle >100Kbytes/sec. USB High Speed is even faster than that. > Well, I assume tools can be made to translate between formats, in which > case it should matter little how many of these projects there are out > there... The issue is that already there are different sampling modes, and different uses for the 'special 00' byte. For my hardware, it means "add 128 to the next sample byte"; for Chuck's it means "an index pulse occurred here". IIRC on a Catweasel it means "a really short pulse was detected". However, if we could all agree on a standard interchange format for raw-disc images, then this point would be more-or-less moot. Have the data analysis software read that format, then all you have to do is write a hardware-interface app that pokes and prods the hardware into reading the disc, and saves out to that format. I'm putting together a file format based on IFF (specifically, EA-IFF 85) with 64-bit extensions. The idea behind this is that -- when necessary -- you can add extra block-types (FOURCCs) to the data format, and older applications will just ignore them. However, in this case the FOURCC is actually 8 bytes -- a 4 byte Vendor ("xDIF" for standard blocks, anything else for vendor-specified blocks) and a 4-byte Type (e.g. "TRAK"=track, "THDR"=track header, "TDAT"=track data, "IXPS"=index position). Blocks can also contain sub-blocks -- a typical xDIF file might like this: / +-- xDIF:HEAD -- xDIF header block | +-- xDIF:CREA -- Creator/Application information | +-- xDIF:DESC -- Description of image contents | +-- ... | +-- xDIF:TRAK -- data track (contains other blocks) | +-- xDIF:THDR -- track header (track #, encoding type) | +-- xDIF:TDAT -- track data | +-- xDIF:INDX -- position of index pulses | +-- xDIF:TRAK -- data track (contains other blocks) | +-- xDIF:THDR -- track header (track #, encoding type) | +-- xDIF:TDAT -- track data | +-- xDIF:INDX -- position of index pulses | ... Or you could have: +-- xDIF:TRAK -- data track (contains other blocks) | +-- xDIF:THDR -- track header (track #, encoding type) | +-- xDIF:SHDR -- sector header | +-- xDIF:SDAT -- sector data | +-- xDIF:SHDR -- sector header | +-- xDIF:SDAT -- sector data | ... for decoded discs. In the case of a "1 track, 1 block" format like, the encoded track would consist of a THDR, a TDAT and an INDX. If it was decoded (i.e. no IAM/DAM), it would consist of a THDR, and a single SHDR/SDAT pair, with sector=0 if the host machine had no concept of a sector. The order of the blocks in the file determines the interleave. Ideally this would also be described in the track header... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 8 03:32:28 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:32:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 7, 9 10:54:43 am, Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: > The HPDrive page states that the 9914 cannot implement the Amigo Identify > command, as it uses a non-standard sequence (Untalk followed by a secondary > addressed to the device). Yet, I don't understand this claim, as my HP > 9134A disc drive uses a 9914A as its HP-IB controller, and it certainly > responds to the Identify command. If the 9914 in a 9134A can implement > Identify, it is not clear to me why a software emulator using a 9914-based > card can't implement Identify as well. I don't really understand that either, but anyways, I'd be happy with a [CS]S/80-only version. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 8 03:40:28 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:40:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: > I use a dedicated "junk" PC for this. I picked up a few 64 MB 400 MHz "no- > name" systems with Win98 on them for free. These make great disc drives I'd do that the same way (and Windows licences are no problem at all with a MSDN-AA subscription), but I want a headless system running UNIX/Linux with NFS mounted filesystems which would contain the image files. Or even a DOS system (optionally with Netware mounts from a Linux server). The headless system could then be a small mini tower stuffed into some free space of the HP rack or into the raised floor, and which will only be powered up along with the main system. > The 1000 OS (RTE) isn't quite so picky, so a shared system might work OK. RTE-6/VM and HP-UX would be the systems I'd like to use the emulator for. Christian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 03:44:58 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:44:58 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E201A.1030003@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Do you have any kind of estimate for when this will be finished (to the > point of being releasable - sounds like there might be ongoing firmware > patches?). I'd be interested in buying one I think (even though I try to > avoid USB if I can). Probably the early-to-middle part of next year. At the moment there are two problems: - The software forms part of my final-year university project. - If I wanted to release the software (MFM Explorer), I'd need to get a copyright release from the university. Problem is, they don't like giving these out. AIUI, you need written approval from the Dean of School, and a few of his underlings. Then the Legal office have to approve it. There are, however, a few things that aren't covered by the university copyright land-grab: - The hardware design. Finished this just before the start of the academic year (late September). - The firmware and microcode for the hardware. See above. - libfdrw (USB read/write engine). Their "any file on our server becomes our copyright" policy is moot as well, I don't use the university file server. Not that it ever works... We found out a few weeks ago that the UNIX server had gone down and that everything was lost -- what was supposed to be a backed-up-fortnightly RAID5 was actually a non-backed-up RAID0. The UNIX admin had been skipping backups for months, and finally decided to actually do his job just before the discs failed. When did the discs fail? About half-way through the backup of '/home/staff'. Two dead discs, RAID0 striped, no mirroring. Total loss apparently. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. > My experience has been that it's "reasonably"* easy to get hold of a PC > that'll read FM (at least at 256bps and above) - but difficult to get > one that'll also write. Like said, all the PCs I've had recently either had no floppy controller (= my current desktop), or had a Super I/O chip that couldn't/wouldn't speak FM. >> The last time I wanted an image of a BBC Micro floppy, I ended up >> streaming it across the RS423 port at 9600bps. Ugh. Not fun. > > I've done exactly that with a 20MB ST506 drive before and a modified > copy of xfer - that on a drive with failing bearings. Something like 7 > hours of high-pitched bearing scream later... the drive held together > though, thankfully. I doubt I'd have been able to put up with seven hours of bearing scream... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Dec 8 05:21:34 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:21:34 -0500 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B1E36BE.9070409@comcast.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > > I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on > this list. I've run it with the cover off and the lights off and I > can see no evidence of sparking or other visible discharge. > It still can be HV leakage in some obscure location. I've seen leakage as small as a centimeter arcing around the FB Xmfr. If there's enough arcing to create the crackling sound --created by the lightening speed of electrons rushing thru the air-- you can be rest assured it's HV leakage. =Dan -- http://home.comcast.net/~ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Dec 8 07:36:28 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:36:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <765996.34752.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 12/7/09, Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked up an old terminal in very > nice cosmetic condition; it works fine barring a bit of > visual "jitter" on the display -- not sure how best to > describe it. The picture is clear and sharp but > occasionally a few scanlines will spike off to the right a > bit. Coinciding with this spiking are tiny crackling > noises from inside the monitor. (Or at least it seems like > they coincide, obviously I can't verify this.) > > I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've > seen on this list. I've run it with the cover off and > the lights off and I can see no evidence of sparking or > other visible discharge. Are you sure it's a "crackle" and not a high pitch chirp/squeak? Your description of some of the scanlines jumping (but not all) seems to suggest a problem in the horizontal circuits. Probably limping electrolytic capacitors. Also, HV leakage is pretty common to happen right under/around the anode connection (suction cup) on dirty monitors. Dust and dirt form a conductive path. Discharge the monitor[1], remove the suction cup, and clean the glass around the connnection. There should be an area of clean (non-coated) glass around the suction cup, the rest of the tube is covered with aquadag (gray coating). Careful not to clean the aquadag off - on some tubes it seems to be water soluble... test your cleaner (Windex, etc) gently to ensure that it won't remove it. -Ian [1] To discharge a monitor, connect one end of an aligator cliplead to a flatblade screwdriver, and the other end to the metal mounting ears of the picture tube. Slide the blade of the screwdriver under the suction cup until you feel it hit the metal contact. Should be accompanied by a ZAP! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 07:44:51 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:44:51 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1E201A.1030003@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1E201A.1030003@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4affc5e0912080544k4df611c0nfc69eb700c841f2f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 04:44, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Probably the early-to-middle part of next year. At the moment there are two > problems: > ?- The software forms part of my final-year university project. > ?- If I wanted to release the software (MFM Explorer), I'd need to get a > copyright release from the university. Problem is, they don't like giving > these out. AIUI, you need written approval from the Dean of School, and a > few of his underlings. Then the Legal office have to approve it. Hi Phil, while of course I can't be sure for your school, in Academia the problem of copyright is only an issue if you plan to profit from your work (that was done using school resources and directed/verified/etc by school staff). If you release your work in an open manner it is part of the academic disclosure and should be available to anyone who asks. Note that this doesn't mean "free", in either libre or beer. Universities can charge fees for distributing copies of theses although most don't (for electronic copies), and if you have a copy, you can't redistribute it - just like a book. Any code can be a (electronic) appendix to a thesis. Here at McGill it has the effect (and possibly the intent) that a lot of work by profs is released with the GPL or BSD licences. As long as you don't rake in the money without the Uni getting a cut, they don't care how you publish it. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Dec 8 07:59:56 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:59:56 +0100 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <4B1D560C.10702.2244685@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1D560C.10702.2244685@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091208135956.GA9839@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 07:22:52PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Dec 2009 at 18:25, David Griffith wrote: > > > If I were to sit down and designs something like this, I'd make sure > > it would be easily reverse-engineerable. If we can assume The Future > > will have scanners and computers capable of making use of them, each > > page would have some sort of legend explaining how the dots are > > organized. That should do it. > > Engraved on a gold-plated tantalum sheet, no doubt. Etched into a > slab of irridium would also do the trick. Only to be melted down for jewelry, coins or industrial use once civilisation has fallen far enough. > If it were cut into > granite, it'd probably end up as someone's kitchen counter. And if it is marble, it will be fed into kilns to get burnt lime[0]. > If metallic however, the scrappers will do it in. Yup. Regards, Alex. [0] As happened to a _lot_ of roman and greek statues. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jim at photojim.ca Tue Dec 8 09:38:24 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:38:24 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) > > A Ridiculous Array of Inexpensive Disks > I remember seeing a RAID5 made of thumbdrives a while ago. I made one from four 1.44 MB floppy drives a few weeks ago, just to see how well it worked. Performance wasn't even all that bad (one internal drive, and three USB, so all four could be read or written to more or less simultaneously). Jim From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 09:45:02 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:45:02 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: <8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> <8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912080745r7581a99auaa7cb996ba907e81@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > I made one from four 1.44 MB floppy drives a few weeks ago, just to see how > well it worked. Performance wasn't even all that bad (one internal drive, > and three USB, so all four could be read or written to more or less > simultaneously). > What happens when you eject a disk? Is it a drive failure? lol If you put a blank floppy in, does it reconstruct the data back to the new floppy? I need to try this. Too bad I only have one usb floppy drive. brian From jim at photojim.ca Tue Dec 8 10:17:19 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:17:19 -0600 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com><8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> <6dbe3c380912080745r7581a99auaa7cb996ba907e81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0AC42C9687CF4E279AC36338F00EFBCF@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) > What happens when you eject a disk? Is it a drive failure? lol If you > put a blank floppy in, does it reconstruct the data back to the new > floppy? > > I need to try this. Too bad I only have one usb floppy drive. Good question! I can give it a try when I have some time, but that will have to be later in the week. Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 10:37:11 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:37:11 -0500 Subject: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: <8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> <8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> Message-ID: <4B1E80B7.5070807@gmail.com> Jim MacKenzie wrote: >> > A Ridiculous Array of Inexpensive Disks > >> I remember seeing a RAID5 made of thumbdrives a while ago. > > I made one from four 1.44 MB floppy drives a few weeks ago, just to see > how well it worked. Performance wasn't even all that bad (one internal > drive, and three USB, so all four could be read or written to more or > less simultaneously). After being inspired by a web page I once saw, I built one using a whole bunch of SCSI floppy drives. This was about 12 years ago. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 13:14:31 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:14:31 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912080544k4df611c0nfc69eb700c841f2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1BF8FD.23067.2378324@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CA60F.5010602@philpem.me.uk> <4B1C3DD1.30677.3445F05@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk> <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1E201A.1030003@philpem.me.uk> <4affc5e0912080544k4df611c0nfc69eb700c841f2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1EA597.4030802@philpem.me.uk> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > while of course I can't be sure for your school, in Academia the > problem of copyright is only an issue if you plan to profit from your > work (that was done using school resources and directed/verified/etc > by school staff). If you release your work in an open manner it is > part of the academic disclosure and should be available to anyone who > asks. Well, the plan was to sell the hardware in kit form, and release the software as OSS. Design it as a generic tool from-the-ground-up, then let other people bolt on a Catweasel I/O interface or whatever later. To be honest, though, I'd just like to make back the cash I spent on the parts for the prototype. I might well take "a computer museum liked this thing so much, they bought one" as a consolation prize.... :) (Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how many Catweasels there are "in the wild" so to speak?) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 8 13:25:10 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: floppy RAID (Was: Iomega Click drives (was Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Differenttake on 10 Yr. 'RULE')) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912080745r7581a99auaa7cb996ba907e81@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380912071109u4d92039cp5022aafb2cec9315@mail.gmail.com> <8C5A24EEA06C41008D0EAE11C09D16DE@JIMM> <6dbe3c380912080745r7581a99auaa7cb996ba907e81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091208112158.E29256@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > What happens when you eject a disk? Is it a drive failure? lol If you > put a blank floppy in, does it reconstruct the data back to the new floppy? > I need to try this. Too bad I only have one usb floppy drive. Howzbout: set it up as multiple RAMDISKs. If memory is tight for that, put them in virtual memory (on a floppy?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 8 13:19:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:19:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Dec 7, 9 07:41:00 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Christian Corti wrote: > > > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: > >> Ansgar Kueckes has released a new version of his "HPDrive" disc emulator > >> that works with HP 64000 logic development stations and HP 1000 MEF-series > > > > This is a great project... > > > >> minicomputers, in addition to the HP 9845. The emulator is hosted on a > >> Windows PC with a GPIB interface card and appears to the target system to > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > ... but alas, this makes it pretty useless for me :-( > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but in theory can't an IEEE compatible parallel IEEE-what? By definiton an IEEE-488 parallel port can emulate GPIB because IEEE-488 _is_ GPIB > port emulate a GPIB with the correct software and cable adapter? If you mean the bidirectional printer port that's found in many PCs, I don't think you have enough signal lines. GPIB has 8 data lines and 8 control lines (split up into 3 handshake lines and 5 bus control lins), all bidiriectional. And IIRC there are times when at least the data lines have to be open-collector (repsonding ot a prallel poll being the most common, I think). I don't think a PC printer port can do that, can it? A Victor 9000/Sirius printer port on the other hand... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 8 13:22:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:22:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Dec 7, 9 07:42:07 am Message-ID: > I was able to obtain a PDF of the ICD-278 manual from the person who > bought that unit, but would still be interested in the actual _3_78 manual > and/or any support software (ZICE). Is there any chance that ICD-278 manual could be stuck on a web site or sent to one my other e-mail addresses (not here, please!). I have an ICD-278 without documention... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 8 13:35:52 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:35:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <4B1DC6CE.90308@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Dec 7, 9 07:23:58 pm Message-ID: > > Picked up an old terminal in very nice cosmetic condition; it works fine Make/model? Just in case one of us has heard of it and knows any stock faults. > barring a bit of visual "jitter" on the display -- not sure how best to > describe it. The picture is clear and sharp but occasionally a few > scanlines will spike off to the right a bit. Coinciding with this > spiking are tiny crackling noises from inside the monitor. (Or at least > it seems like they coincide, obviously I can't verify this.) > > I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on this THis does intiially sound like HV leakage. The spike produced when something breaks down could well upset the horizontal scan cirucitry too. Where have you been looking for signs of this? I'd certainly look at the flyback transfortmer, the CRT anode capp, the CRT earthing contacts (to the outside aquadag coating on the flare), on the CRT base PCB (the EHT is not he only voltage that can flash over, there could well be a few hundred volts on a CRT base pin) and so on. Have you examined the solder side of the monitor PCB with the power on? A cracked solder joint can produce some intereting sparks. Could it be internal breakdown of a capactior (e.g. the 3rd harmonic tuninc capacitor on the flyback)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 8 13:44:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:44:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912071946m72398327p37d75695f88b51bb@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Dec 7, 9 09:46:24 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Picked up an old terminal in very nice cosmetic condition; > > > > Funny you should post this. I was about to post about my Sony Multiscan > 400PS monitor. It flashes on and off about once a second every second. I _What_ flashes on/off? The screen (If so, it sounds like a beam limiter problem, the circuitry is detecting excessive CRT beam current and cutting the CRT off to protect it). THe power-on LED (sounds like the SMPSU Is tripping and restarting, maybe a short somewhere in the horizontal output stage). > don't know much about how to fix monitors. I know the theory, but wouldn't > begin to know how to fix one. > > I remember from years ago that you could buy a sort of kit containing maybe > half a dozen parts, caps, large resistors, etc. If you replace all of the Ah, lucky-dip servicing. Second only to board-swapping in my reckoning :-). More seriously, if shotgunning all those parts doesn't help, or changes the symptoms (but doesn't fix the problem), what then? You are much better off IMHO (as always) looking for the fault in a logical manner and curing it. Not changing things effectively at random until somethign seems to work again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 8 13:47:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:47:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "J. David Bryan" at Dec 7, 9 10:50:30 pm Message-ID: > > The HPDrive page states that the 9914 cannot implement the Amigo Identify > command, as it uses a non-standard sequence (Untalk followed by a secondary > addressed to the device). Yet, I don't understand this claim, as my HP > 9134A disc drive uses a 9914A as its HP-IB controller, and it certainly Are you sure? I don't have a 9134A, but I've worked on (and have schemaitcs) for the 9133 V/XV and 9133H. The 9133 is, of course, a 9134 with a floppy drive (and maybe a seprate controller card) added. As far as I can rememebr, all those units use the Intel 8291 GPIB chip. Can you please check the 9134A uses a 9914. I am very suprised. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:13:54 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:13:54 -0600 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380912071946m72398327p37d75695f88b51bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912081213p48ac3dd9xfb67da565ad07bf8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > _What_ flashes on/off? The screen (If so, it sounds like a beam limiter > problem, the circuitry is detecting excessive CRT beam current and > cutting the CRT off to protect it). THe power-on LED (sounds like the > SMPSU Is tripping and restarting, maybe a short somewhere in the > horizontal output stage). > The display flashes on and off. It turns on and wiggles for a split second like normal, lasts half a second, then goes out. Next second repeats. It's a trinitron tube if that matters. > > I remember from years ago that you could buy a sort of kit containing > maybe > > half a dozen parts, caps, large resistors, etc. If you replace all of > the > > Ah, lucky-dip servicing. Second only to board-swapping in my reckoning > :-). > > More seriously, if shotgunning all those parts doesn't help, or changes > the symptoms (but doesn't fix the problem), what then? You are much > better off IMHO (as always) looking for the fault in a logical manner and > curing it. Not changing things effectively at random until somethign > seems to work again. > I agree. Now what? :-) I guess I could (should) learn monitor repair. I'll put that on the list right after finishing up the wood shop, making a dozen pieces of furniture, finishing the setup of my computer room, finishing the amiga 1200, amiga 2000, amiga 600, IIfx, quadra 700, 2e, 2gs, internet proxy server, laserjet 3, laserget 4100, finishing the deck, and finishing the basement. I really need fewer hobbies. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 15:15:45 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:15:45 -0300 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor References: Message-ID: <23a801ca784b$ab6e66e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on this Best tip ever: Power it on in the dark, you'll see the blue flame :oD From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 14:18:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:18:45 -0800 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Dec 7, 9 07:41:00 am, Message-ID: <4B1E4425.13301.D4D5E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2009 at 19:19, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't think a PC printer port can do that, can it? A Victor > 9000/Sirius printer port on the other hand... Depends on the device. If you have a bidirectional printer port (or hack a unidirectional one to be so) you can communicate with a variety of GPIB devices, so long as you're not sharing the bus with more than one device. Many years ago, I wrote a DOS TSR to drive a HP plotter with HPIB interface from a PC XT with a bidirectional-hacked port. It redirected the BIOS printer service interrupt, so you installed whatever software you had (in my case, SuperCalc) and told it you had a parallel-interface version. I think I used a modified version of the software to later talk to a HP voltmeter. It's probably still buried somewhere in the SIMTEL library. Cheers, Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:21:23 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:21:23 -0600 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <23a801ca784b$ab6e66e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <23a801ca784b$ab6e66e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912081221i4a1288b7y14edf7cc9013bc58@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on this >>> >> > Best tip ever: Power it on in the dark, you'll see the blue flame :oD > That's good advice for diagnosing ignition problems cars too by the way. brian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 14:25:55 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:25:55 -0800 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912081213p48ac3dd9xfb67da565ad07bf8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380912071946m72398327p37d75695f88b51bb@mail.gmail.com>, , <6dbe3c380912081213p48ac3dd9xfb67da565ad07bf8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E45D3.4942.DB6344@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2009 at 14:13, Brian Lanning wrote: > The display flashes on and off. It turns on and wiggles for a split > second like normal, lasts half a second, then goes out. Next second > repeats. It's a trinitron tube if that matters. While it's doing this, check the DC output of the power supply. If it collapses along with the image, then it's most likely a power supply issue. This sort of behavior isn't atypical of a bad capacitor or ten in the SMPSU. A lot of consumer displays get tossed in the trash for exactly this behavior. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Dec 8 14:16:24 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:16:24 -0800 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu> On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:35 AM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> Picked up an old terminal in very nice cosmetic condition; it works >> fine > > Make/model? Just in case one of us has heard of it and knows any stock > faults. Ah, sorry. Don't know what I was thinking not including that :). It's a CDC 721 (with PLATO mods). So obviously I'd like to get it working smoothly... > >> barring a bit of visual "jitter" on the display -- not sure how >> best to >> describe it. The picture is clear and sharp but occasionally a few >> scanlines will spike off to the right a bit. Coinciding with this >> spiking are tiny crackling noises from inside the monitor. (Or at >> least >> it seems like they coincide, obviously I can't verify this.) >> >> I thought it might be HV leakage based on discussions I've seen on >> this > > THis does intiially sound like HV leakage. The spike produced when > something breaks down could well upset the horizontal scan cirucitry > too. > > Where have you been looking for signs of this? I'd certainly look at > the > flyback transfortmer, the CRT anode capp, the CRT earthing contacts > (to > the outside aquadag coating on the flare), on the CRT base PCB (the > EHT > is not he only voltage that can flash over, there could well be a few > hundred volts on a CRT base pin) and so on. With the top cover off I can get a pretty good view of all of that, though the flyback itself is a little hard to see. In a pitch black room I wasn't able to see anything unusual. > > > Have you examined the solder side of the monitor PCB with the power > on? A > cracked solder joint can produce some intereting sparks. I'll check that tonight. > > Could it be internal breakdown of a capactior (e.g. the 3rd harmonic > tuninc capacitor on the flyback)? You would know far better than I :) Thanks (and thanks for all the other responses as well) Josh > > -tony > From mardy at voysys.com Tue Dec 8 14:49:57 2009 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:49:57 -0500 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <130C2E75-238E-4CAD-847F-65302FB9332D@voysys.com> On Dec 8, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I was able to obtain a PDF of the ICD-278 manual from the person who >> bought that unit, but would still be interested in the actual _3_78 manual >> and/or any support software (ZICE). > > Is there any chance that ICD-278 manual could be stuck on a web site or > sent to one my other e-mail addresses (not here, please!). I have an > ICD-278 without documention... > > -tony > Here they are. It probably would be nice to get them onto bitsavers. http://web.me.com/mardy/iWeb/ZAX/ICD278_Part1.pdf http://web.me.com/mardy/iWeb/ZAX/ICD278_Part2.pdf -Mardy From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 8 15:58:27 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:58:27 -0800 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: <130C2E75-238E-4CAD-847F-65302FB9332D@voysys.com> References: <130C2E75-238E-4CAD-847F-65302FB9332D@voysys.com> Message-ID: <4B1ECC03.9070006@bitsavers.org> Marden P. Marshall wrote: > Here they are. It probably would be nice to get them onto bitsavers. > done.. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 16:23:21 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:23:21 -0600 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> but do you anticipate 16MHz being enough, or are there likely to be >> some things that it won't handle? (I kept all prior threads on this >> kind of thing, but they're a bit lost amongst the noise right now!) > > I'd think it'd be fine up to about 500kbps. I'm using a 40MHz clock on > mine because it's a multiple of most standard data rates. 1Mbps, 500kbps > and 250kbps are all integer multiples of 40MHz. This helps reduce timing > jitter -- the FPGA can't count fractions-of-a-clock. It also makes the > math a bit easier when you start decoding the data! Yeah, that all makes sense, I think. I just have vague memories about discussions as to how much over-sampling of the signal was beneficial so as to perhaps recover marginal data that would be garbage on the 'native' hardware. >> I like the fact it's RS232. Like you say, it'd be easy to add a >> converter to give USB functionality, but a bit more difficult to go >> the other way. > > The problem, of course, is the limited speed of RS-232... Yep. I think I once raised the possibility of making the I/O to the "outside world" a separate card to the rest of the system, so that different methods of transfer could be used. Of course at that point it's a shame not to split the floppy access logic from the CPU, and to add a backplane and console board and stuff the whole lot in a nice wooden case ;-) >> Well, I assume tools can be made to translate between formats, in >> which case it should matter little how many of these projects there >> are out there... > > The issue is that already there are different sampling modes, and > different uses for the 'special 00' byte. For my hardware, it means "add > 128 to the next sample byte"; for Chuck's it means "an index pulse > occurred here". IIRC on a Catweasel it means "a really short pulse was > detected". > > However, if we could all agree on a standard interchange format for > raw-disc images, then this point would be more-or-less moot. Why's that even needed (nice though it'd be)? Is there some reason that a software util *can't* be written to translate between data dump formats? > The order of the blocks in the file determines the interleave. Ideally > this would also be described in the track header... Yes, lots of semantic type data seems good - so long as it doesn't lead to ambiguity and potential conflict within the data... cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 17:01:55 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:01:55 -0500 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu> References: <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > Ah, sorry. ?Don't know what I was thinking not including that :). ?It's a > CDC 721 (with PLATO mods). ?So obviously I'd like to get it working > smoothly... I have at least one pretty awful looking 721 that could yield parts, and perhaps NOS spares. Al should have the docs for these terminals. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 17:04:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:04:25 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E6AF9.13510.16C8283@cclist.sydex.com> Anent all of this discussion, I'm sure that everyone's seen the HxC floppy emulator products: http://torlus.com/floppy/index.php?en What's interesting is that the USB model uses an Altera MAX7000S CPLD and 32K local SRAM and a FTDI USB-to-parallel chip. The claim is for 63K-1Mbps data rates. Given the buffer size, I'd say that there is darned little oversampling going on and that the datarate set on the emulator had better match the one on your system. A 16MHz clock is used on the MAX7000S. The standalone model uses a single PIC 18F series uC and an SD card (no external SRAM)--and runs with a 10MHz clock. The decoding is on- the-fly--there's only about 3900 bytes of RAM oin a PIC18F4525, so I'm guessing that it works sector-by-sector, so formats are probably fairly rigid. It's noteworthy that both emulators use fairly old technology. There are also $50-$300 Chinese-origin emulators available on eBay and other vendors which use a USB flash drive as storage. Thus far, I have not been able to get any meaningful technical information from the sellers. --Chuck From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Dec 8 17:11:58 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:11:58 -0700 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? Message-ID: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> I've been trying to find a chart of support hardware under the various releases of DEC's ULTRIX flavor of UNIX, but am drawing a blank. I have a couple of systems that came to me with versions of ULTRIX, a MicroVAX II/GPX running v2.2, and a DECSystem 5400 (RISC-based) running v4.2 (I've since upgraded this to v4.5...thanks Barry!) So, I'm curious about which VAX and RISC systems were supported by which versions of ULTRIX. A lengthy Google search finally turned up a chart for VMS/OpenVMS at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/hw_supportchart.html which is useful for the VMS side of things. Glad to have found it. Can anyone point me to a similar reference related to ULTRIX? -- Jared From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Dec 8 17:12:08 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:12:08 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Yeah, that all makes sense, I think. I just have vague memories about > discussions as to how much over-sampling of the signal was beneficial so > as to perhaps recover marginal data that would be garbage on the > 'native' hardware. My amiga disk reader doesn't sample at all. I look for falling edges of the pulses, clear a timer, look for the next edge, and calculate the time difference between two pulses. The time between pulses define the data, and I write out the associated data pattern to memory. I've played with PLL's and a few other methods, and I have yet to find one that works better. Differences in frequency and phase really don't have any marked effect on my results --- no need for up/down counters and all that crap. In the amiga world, anyways, the time differences between different data patterns are pretty big. I use an 8-bit timer prescaled 1:2 at 50mhz. So I end up w/ a 40ns timer tick with a 0-~10us count ability. For 500kbps raw MFM datarate, this allows roughly 1us guard band in between the 1us data windows. I could probably optimize this a little better, but in practice it works very well. I've recently bought another inexpensive pc-based logic analyzer (the Saleae Logic), and am getting fantastic statistical information out of exported data dumps. I can process the (also 40ns) raw samples in some very simple programs I've written and I'd like to establish some much more detailed information. Keith From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 8 17:25:42 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:25:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: Don't forget about Ultrix-11. :-) Zane On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, J Blaser wrote: > I've been trying to find a chart of support hardware under the various > releases of DEC's ULTRIX flavor of UNIX, but am drawing a blank. > > I have a couple of systems that came to me with versions of ULTRIX, > a MicroVAX II/GPX running v2.2, and a DECSystem 5400 > (RISC-based) running v4.2 (I've since upgraded this to v4.5...thanks > Barry!) > > So, I'm curious about which VAX and RISC systems were supported > by which versions of ULTRIX. > > A lengthy Google search finally turned up a chart for VMS/OpenVMS at: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/hw_supportchart.html > which is useful for the VMS side of things. Glad to have found it. > > Can anyone point me to a similar reference related to ULTRIX? > > -- Jared > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 17:35:52 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:35:52 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Yeah, that all makes sense, I think. I just have vague memories about > discussions as to how much over-sampling of the signal was beneficial so > as to perhaps recover marginal data that would be garbage on the > 'native' hardware. I'd want at least 10x, preferably 20x (or about 40MHz for a 1Mbps disc: remember, each bit cell can potentially have two transitions in it). Reading MFM hard drives should be a bit easier from a hardware POV. They're built to higher specifications (the motor speed tolerances are much tighter for a start), and the R/W hardware / motors is generally mated to the platter set for life. Decoding the various kinds of on-disc format is likely to be utter hell, though. MFM should be a snap, RLL involves figuring out what encoding table the controller manufacturer used... >> The problem, of course, is the limited speed of RS-232... > > Yep. I think I once raised the possibility of making the I/O to the > "outside world" a separate card to the rest of the system, so that > different methods of transfer could be used. It's possible to add RS232, but I'm not sure if there's going to be enough room for a DE9 connector on the back panel... Also, I doubt there'd be enough space in the flash-ROM to have two versions of the Layer 1 protocol stack (USB and RS232)... A right-angle female DE9 and MAX232 (read: TI clone, not the fiercely expensive Maxim version) wouldn't be an expensive thing to add. Maybe a few pounds in 10-off, less in quantity. > Of course at that point it's a shame not to split the floppy access > logic from the CPU, and to add a backplane and console board The FPGA already does nearly all the work -- the PIC is a glorified bit-twiddler and data translator. If you don't like it, take the FPGA code and bolt it onto another interface chip... > and stuff the whole lot in a nice wooden case ;-) How about a nice, black, anodised aluminium case instead? Hammond 1455L1601BK maybe? I think it's got a nice "industrial" look to it. IMHO the silver version looks a bit naff with the black bezels, but it does look quite nice with the translucent blue bezels. Or if you prefer ABS plastic, there's the 1598 series -- I've got a few 1598BBBK, which will take a 160x100 Eurocard PCB if you can live with the PCB support holes being rather close to the edge of the board. >> The issue is that already there are different sampling modes, and >> different uses for the 'special 00' byte. For my hardware, it means >> "add 128 to the next sample byte"; for Chuck's it means "an index >> pulse occurred here". IIRC on a Catweasel it means "a really short >> pulse was detected". >> >> However, if we could all agree on a standard interchange format for >> raw-disc images, then this point would be more-or-less moot. > > Why's that even needed (nice though it'd be)? Is there some reason that > a software util *can't* be written to translate between data dump formats? My point was that a "raw dump" means different things depending on what hardware produced it, and there's not really an easy way to tell if a data dump is from a given device. The idea would be to have a software tool for each device that produces a file in a specific format, which is then imported into whatever analysis tool you want to use. Once you've done the analysis and decoding stuff, you can get the software to spit out either an xDIF with just the sectors, an ADF, an FDI, or whatever you want. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 17:47:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:47:09 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com>, <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1E74FD.1681.1939FE1@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2009 at 18:12, Keith M wrote: > My amiga disk reader doesn't sample at all. I look for falling edges > of the pulses, clear a timer, look for the next edge, and calculate > the time difference between two pulses. The time between pulses > define the data, and I write out the associated data pattern to > memory. I don't even do that with the AVR-based one. I set one of the counters to free-run in "capture" mode, where the edge of a pulse causes the contents of the timer to be latched into a register. I then store the difference between that count and the previous one, modulo 256. A very short loop with no program-dependent latencies. The AVRs also feature a 'noise filter" that drops any pulses less than 4 clocks wide. I've left the filter enabled, and it seems not to interfere with normal reading. Similarly, writing involves operating the timer in PWM mode. As long as the terminal count register is kept updated, everything works flawlessly. Most DSP chips also have timer capture mode, but can run the timers substantially faster that 16 or 20 MHz. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 18:04:09 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:04:09 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Also, I doubt > there'd be enough space in the flash-ROM to have two versions of the > Layer 1 protocol stack (USB and RS232)... Foot, meet mouth. > PIC18F4550: USB-enabled PIC18F Microcontroller > Program Memory: 32 KBytes The current USB-enabled code runs to a shade under 7KB. Tack on a multi-mode bootloader (RS232/USB) and the RS232 firmware, and I doubt it'd eat much more than 16KB. There's also an onboard USART, so RS232 will most likely not be a problem (in hardware terms). In software terms... it doubles the amount of code required :-/ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 18:41:07 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:41:07 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1EF223.9020106@philpem.me.uk> Keith M wrote: > My amiga disk reader doesn't sample at all. I look for falling edges of > the pulses, clear a timer, look for the next edge, and calculate the > time difference between two pulses. The time between pulses define the > data, and I write out the associated data pattern to memory. I think that's more or less what everyone's doing. Measure dT between samples, 1T is '01', 1.5T is '001', 2T is '0001'... As far as data-extraction goes, I'm doing this: 1. Calculate the histogram of the data 2. Find the peaks in the histogram. Assume the first one is the raw timing value for 1T (a 01 sequence). 3. Set 'T' to the timing value for the first peak. For every timing value in the buffer: a. Calculate the absolute difference between the timing value and 1T, 1.5T and 2T. b. Compare the errors: If the smallest error value is 1T, add '01' to the output buffer If the smallest error value is 1.5T, add '001' to the output buffer If the smallest error value is 2T, add '0001' to the output buffer c. Update the timing value accordingly -- divide the timing value by the reference multiplier (1T, 1.5T or 2T), then multiply the result by "update_rate_frac" (between 0 and 1, typ. around 0.05, i.e. 5%). d. Multiply T by (1 - update_rate_frac), then add the result from step (c). e. Repeat for all the data bytes. The variable update threshold makes it possible to handle fairly large variations in speed over time. Even a "mushy" histogram should decode fine, as long as the 1T peak can be reliably detected. And therein lies the rub -- at the moment, I'm just detecting the mean level of the histogram, discarding anything below 10% of that, then detecting the peaks with a slope-detect algorithm. There's probably a better solution, but I haven't found it yet... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 8 18:48:26 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:48:26 +0000 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1E6AF9.13510.16C8283@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1E6AF9.13510.16C8283@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1EF3DA.3080005@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's interesting is that the USB model uses an Altera MAX7000S CPLD > and 32K local SRAM and a FTDI USB-to-parallel chip. The claim is for > 63K-1Mbps data rates. Given the buffer size, I'd say that there is > darned little oversampling going on and that the datarate set on the > emulator had better match the one on your system. A 16MHz clock is > used on the MAX7000S. I'd be surprised if the FTDI chip could actually transfer 32K of track data before the drive step completes (~3ms if you're emulating a 3.5" drive). Although you can always defer the first index pulse for a but while the data finishes uploading... $DEITY help you if you want to emulate copy-protected discs. > There are also $50-$300 Chinese-origin emulators available on eBay > and other vendors which use a USB flash drive as storage. Thus far, > I have not been able to get any meaningful technical information from > the sellers. I wouldn't expect any "meaningful technical information" from them, either. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 19:17:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:17:37 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> It's an interesting question about how much oversampling is necessary. Most modern 3.5" floppies are rated with an ISV of around +/- 3% and CSV of about about half that. 5.25" legacy floppies, particularly those with belt drives go considerably outside of that. Data separators expect some pretty wide variations; the lowly WD9216 (used on a lot of older FDC boards) claims to be able to adjust to +/- 30% of nominal center (reference) frequency. So how much oversampling is optimum in light of legacy hardware performance and how much is gilding the lily? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 8 20:07:27 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:07:27 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> Keith M wrote: > My amiga disk reader doesn't sample at all. I look for falling edges > of the pulses, clear a timer, look for the next edge, and calculate > the time difference between two pulses. The time between pulses > define the data, and I write out the associated data pattern to memory. That's still sampling. The time quantization is the resolution of the timer. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 8 20:13:54 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:13:54 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's an interesting question about how much oversampling is > necessary. > > Most modern 3.5" floppies are rated with an ISV of around +/- 3% and > CSV of about about half that. 5.25" legacy floppies, particularly > those with belt drives go considerably outside of that. > > Data separators expect some pretty wide variations; the lowly WD9216 > (used on a lot of older FDC boards) claims to be able to adjust to +/- > 30% of nominal center (reference) frequency. > > So how much oversampling is optimum in light of legacy hardware > performance and how much is gilding the lily? > The data separator has to deal with a lot more than just the variation in drive speed. That variation has long-term and short-term components, and it also has to deal with the bit shifting that isn't completely avoided by write precompensation. For many disks you can read adequately using the very simple software data separator techniques that have been described previously in this thread. However, for disks that are marginal in one way or another, the simple techniques will fail. Radio Shack customers found this out the hard way with the disk controller in the Model I expansion interface, and that wasn't even doing MFM. One of the advantages of sampling the pulses from the drive and saving the samples or delta times is that you can use data separation algorithms that would be impractical in a real floppy disk system. For instance, you can use non-causal algorithms (adjusting your separator based on future data in addition to past data), and based on information derived from other tracks of the same disk. When I was experimenting with this some years back, I found both techniques to be useful on problem disks. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 8 20:34:33 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:34:33 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B1F0CB9.70403@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/09 6:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > When I was experimenting > with this some years back, I found both techniques to be useful on > problem disks. > Did you ever try anything with the data separator algorithm you had come across after you stopped working on it? Do you recall where it was? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Dec 8 20:59:43 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:59:43 -0800 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu> References: <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B1F129F.4030801@mail.msu.edu> Josh Dersch wrote: > On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:35 AM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >>> >>> Picked up an old terminal in very nice cosmetic condition; it works >>> fine >> >> Make/model? Just in case one of us has heard of it and knows any stock >> faults. > > Ah, sorry. Don't know what I was thinking not including that :). > It's a CDC 721 (with PLATO mods). So obviously I'd like to get it > working smoothly... > >> >> >> Have you examined the solder side of the monitor PCB with the power >> on? A >> cracked solder joint can produce some intereting sparks. > > I'll check that tonight. > Just checked; I can't get a good view of it because the solder side of the PCB faces an aluminum mounting plate. Couldn't see any sparks through the 1/4" gap between the two. I took the monitor PCB out (this thing slides right apart, very easy to service) and made a careful examination of the soldering. No obvious cracks, it looks very good. The flyback looks good (externally, anyway) as well. No obviously bad electrolytics. Checked the tube around the anode "suction cup" and it's clean as a whistle. Thanks, Josh From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Dec 8 21:45:39 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:45:39 -0700 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Don't forget about Ultrix-11. :-) Indeed, yes, how could I have missed that?! So, *three* platforms could run ULTRIX, and I have an example of each! That'd be a weekend's entertainment! Well, assuming I could come up with installation media, that is. I do have a couple of the 4.x versions for both RISC and VAX, but sadly, nothing when it comes to the PDP-11. - Jared From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 8 21:50:29 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:50:29 -0800 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: At 8:45 PM -0700 12/8/09, J Blaser wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Don't forget about Ultrix-11. :-) > >Indeed, yes, how could I have missed that?! > >So, *three* platforms could run ULTRIX, and I have an >example of each! That'd be a weekend's entertainment! >Well, assuming I could come up with installation media, >that is. I do have a couple of the 4.x versions for both >RISC and VAX, but sadly, nothing when it comes to the >PDP-11. > >- Jared Check PUPS, I'm pretty sure they have Ultrix-11, but I might be wrong. I've never bothered to get UNIX running on one of my -11's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Dec 8 22:13:24 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:13:24 -0700 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:45 PM -0700 12/8/09, J Blaser wrote: >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Don't forget about Ultrix-11. :-) >> >> Indeed, yes, how could I have missed that?! >> >> So, *three* platforms could run ULTRIX, and I have an >> example of each! That'd be a weekend's entertainment! >> Well, assuming I could come up with installation media, >> that is. I do have a couple of the 4.x versions for both >> RISC and VAX, but sadly, nothing when it comes to the >> PDP-11. >> >> - Jared > > Check PUPS, I'm pretty sure they have Ultrix-11, but I might be > wrong. I've never bothered to get UNIX running on one of my -11's. > Yes, thanks for that heads-up. On one of the mirrors I found: http://ftp.math.utah.edu:80/pub/mirrors/minnie.tuhs.org/PDP-11/Distributions/dec/ Looks like there are one or two distributions there. Some appear to be binary only, and I'm not sure any will run on my particular -11 setup. But, at least I have an angle on the -11 platform. I'll keep digging. Seems like a little chart of compatible versions and platforms would still be useful! ;) -- Jared From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 22:14:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:14:03 -0600 Subject: isa usb card Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912082014x6e65315byd98a86cc1e46e10a@mail.gmail.com> Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. brian From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 8 22:19:32 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:19:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912082014x6e65315byd98a86cc1e46e10a@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Dec 8, 9 10:14:03 pm" Message-ID: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> > Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Light is faster than sound. Some folks look bright until you hear them speak. From jim at photojim.ca Tue Dec 8 22:38:04 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:38:04 -0600 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380912082014x6e65315byd98a86cc1e46e10a@mail.gmail.com>from Brian Lanning at "Dec 8, 9 10:14:03 pm" <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7BADF91EACBB497B8B1CBA047D26186C@merredin> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: December 8, 2009 10:20 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: isa usb card > Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. I've heard they exist, but I tried to find one for my 486 for a couple of years without success. If you find one... try to find a second and I'm in. :) Jim From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 8 22:46:02 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:46:02 -0500 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> References: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B1F2B8A.1030308@atarimuseum.com> There is a USB interface for the Atari 8bit computers, so no reason a lowly PC couldn't have one too ;-) USB 1.1 of course... Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. >> > > I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 8 22:47:47 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:47:47 -0500 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <7BADF91EACBB497B8B1CBA047D26186C@merredin> References: <6dbe3c380912082014x6e65315byd98a86cc1e46e10a@mail.gmail.com>from Brian Lanning at "Dec 8, 9 10:14:03 pm" <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> <7BADF91EACBB497B8B1CBA047D26186C@merredin> Message-ID: <4B1F2BF3.9060000@atarimuseum.com> Here is an ISA USB card... http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB1161ISA/ Curt Jim MacKenzie wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: December 8, 2009 10:20 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: isa usb card > > >> Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. >> > > I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. > > I've heard they exist, but I tried to find one for my 486 for a couple of > years without success. > > If you find one... try to find a second and I'm in. :) > > Jim > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 8 23:18:09 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 21:18:09 -0800 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: At 9:13 PM -0700 12/8/09, J Blaser wrote: >Seems like a little chart of compatible versions and >platforms would still be useful! ;) > >-- Jared No denying that. Off the top of my head Ultrix-32 v2 is probably the minimum you'll get running on a MicroVAX II. I think I donated my Ultrix-32 manuals to CBHRC a couple years ago, but it looks like I have my Ultrix-11 manuals. I don't know if anyone has scanned either. It's too cold out where the manuals are to dig them out though, we're in the middle of a deep freeze! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Dec 8 23:18:59 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:18:59 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: from "J. David Bryan" at Dec 7, 9 10:50:30 pm, Message-ID: On Tuesday, December 8, 2009 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you sure? Yes. > I don't have a 9134A, but I've worked on (and have schemaitcs) for the > 9133 V/XV and 9133H. The 9133 is, of course, a 9134 with a floppy > drive (and maybe a seprate controller card) added. As far as I can > rememebr, all those units use the Intel 8291 GPIB chip. There were several different controller cards used in these, including different ones for the same model, depending on the date code. > Can you please check the 9134A uses a 9914. See "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (part number 09134-90032, August 1983). Section II, page 1-4 says, in part: "The HP-IB bus controller (9914 HP-IB chip) manages the data transfers across the HP-IB channel." This is from the section entitled, "Winchester Controller PCA Theory of Operation (88134-69910, 09135-69515, and 09135-69501)." The last part number is the one in my 9134A. There's a photograph of the card on page 1-8, and you can see the 9914 chip on the board. The 9133V and XV used controller part number 09133-69508, according to Section III, page 1-2 of the aforementioned manual. Section III, page 1-5 says that controller uses an 8291A. -- Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 8 23:19:55 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 21:19:55 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold Message-ID: Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and other stuff I don't want to freeze). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 23:29:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:29:13 -0800 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <4B1F2B8A.1030308@atarimuseum.com> References: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com>, <4B1F2B8A.1030308@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B1EC529.12078.2CCCDE4@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2009 at 23:46, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > There is a USB interface for the Atari 8bit computers, so no reason a > lowly PC couldn't have one too ;-) > > USB 1.1 of course... My thought was to look around for a PC104-interface card if an ISA one couldn't be found. One could conceivably build a card with its own microcontroller and UHCI and local RAM. Then even USB 2.0 wouldn't be a problem on a PC XT, assuming that you could find the appropriate drivers. --Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Dec 8 23:42:05 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:42:05 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: On Tuesday, December 8, 2009 at 10:40, Christian Corti wrote: > ...I want a headless system running UNIX/Linux with NFS mounted > filesystems which would contain the image files. I think that a Win9x system could be set up to run the emulator after bootup via a shortcut in the "Startup" directory. I don't know if the BIOS would let you get away without a keyboard, but you shouldn't need a monitor. That might be close enough. > Or even a DOS system.... Win9x is pretty much a DOS system.... ;-) > RTE-6/VM and HP-UX would be the systems I'd like to use the emulator > for. I haven't tried HP-UX, but RTE-6/VM works fine with the emulator. -- Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 23:45:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:45:00 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B1EC8DC.880.2DB4080@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2009 at 18:13, Eric Smith wrote: > The data separator has to deal with a lot more than just the variation > in drive speed. That variation has long-term and short-term > components, and it also has to deal with the bit shifting that isn't > completely avoided by write precompensation. Indeed, as I pointed out ISV can be much worse than CSV. Even the lowly WD9216 manages to implement long-- and short-term timing compensation in an 8-pin late 70's DIP. Bit-crowding effects can vary between media vendors, all else remaining the same. The Catweasel utilities tend to use very simple algorithms for their MFM and FM separation (I don't know about their algorithms are for other formats). I would expect that one could do considerably better, particularly when it comes to error recovery. For example, a traditional data separator, when it hits a "glitch" in the middle of data is more likely than not to interchange clock and data in the stream. A software algorithm can work through the "glitch" and reduce data loss to a much lower level. Similarly, corrupted IDAMs usually result in a "Sector not found" type of error on traditional gear, where the placement of the IDAM and its data might be inferred using a clever software algorithm. In other words, instead of being "as good as" a regular floppy controller, one could be considerably better. Given that the goal of a floppy reader is recovery of recorded information, what is an adequate sampling rate? My own guess is that after real-world factors have been taken into account, that 8x is probably more than safe. But I would be interested in hearing arguments to the contrary. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Dec 8 23:53:25 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:53:25 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B1F3B55.4060500@verizon.net> Eric Smith wrote: > The data separator has to deal with a lot more than just the variation > in drive speed. That variation has long-term and short-term components, > and it also has to deal with the bit shifting that isn't completely > avoided by write precompensation. Can you put some rough ballpark numbers on how much total (worst case) shifting you are talking about, altogether? I'm assuming the shift would show up as distance/time between pulses, right? > For many disks you can read adequately using the very simple software > data separator techniques that have been described previously in this > thread. However, for disks that are marginal in one way or another, the > simple techniques will fail. So you are saying that the shift could be enough, for example, to make two pulses that were written 4us apart appear as if they are 6us apart? > One of the advantages of sampling the pulses from the drive and saving > the samples or delta times is that you can use data separation > algorithms that would be impractical in a real floppy disk system. I think having access to the most raw form of the data possible is the best idea too. Any good book references for data separation algorithms? Would this topic be covered in detail, for instance, in some other generic engineering type reference, or ... ? Thanks for any help.... Keith From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 23:55:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:55:16 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When > is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it > is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier > down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and > other stuff I don't want to freeze). It seems to me that Ethan would be the perfect one to answer this. 35F is probably a heat wave at the South Pole. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 9 00:01:56 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:01:56 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 9:55 PM -0800 12/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When >> is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it >> is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier >> down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and >> other stuff I don't want to freeze). > >It seems to me that Ethan would be the perfect one to answer this. >35F is probably a heat wave at the South Pole. Except I don't think they run their computers outdoors! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 9 00:07:20 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:07:20 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F0CB9.70403@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> <4B1F0CB9.70403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B1F3E98.7060807@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Did you ever try anything with the data separator algorithm you had come > across after you stopped working on it? Do you recall where it was? I was using a DPLL. For problem disks, I used measurements from tracks that read OK to tweak the DPLL parameters for tracks with issues, and that sometimes helped. The code was on a hard drive that crashed. :-( It wasn't very fancy code, and I hadn't spent all that much time on it, so I don't think it would be all that hard to recreate it. Eric From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 9 00:25:10 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 01:25:10 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1EC8DC.880.2DB4080@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> <4B1EC8DC.880.2DB4080@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1F42C6.3070907@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Dec 2009 at 18:13, Eric Smith wrote: > >> The data separator has to deal with a lot more than just the variation >> in drive speed. That variation has long-term and short-term >> components, and it also has to deal with the bit shifting that isn't >> completely avoided by write precompensation. > > Indeed, as I pointed out ISV can be much worse than CSV. ISV = Instantaneous speed variation. I've read the primarily cause of it is jacket friction. Any other causes you know of? CSV = What's this one? Is it CONSTANT speed variation? Comma separated values keep ruining my google searches (Yes, I've tried -delimited in the search.) Is this the same as MSV, motor speed variation? I've seen ISV and MSV all over the place, but I don't think I've seen CSV.... > I would expect that one could do considerably > better, particularly when it comes to error recovery. For example, a > traditional data separator, when it hits a "glitch" in the middle of > data is more likely than not to interchange clock and data in the > stream. A software algorithm can work through the "glitch" and > reduce data loss to a much lower level. Similarly, corrupted IDAMs > usually result in a "Sector not found" type of error on traditional > gear, where the placement of the IDAM and its data might be inferred > using a clever software algorithm. I've spent quite some time coming up with some neat ideas regarding exactly this type of stuff. I have some stuff implemented, but others are just ideas swirling inside my head. > In other words, instead of being "as good as" a regular floppy > controller, one could be considerably better. Exactly! And this has been my goal from the beginning. > Given that the goal of a floppy reader is recovery of recorded > information, what is an adequate sampling rate? My own guess is that > after real-world factors have been taken into account, that 8x is > probably more than safe. But I would be interested in hearing > arguments to the contrary. Let me play devil's advocate. 8x500kbps would be 4mhz. Which means that your samples are every 250ns. But the pulses come from the drive are usually 250-300ns wide. _You could potentially miss one._ Now the pulse WIDTH is fixed and doesn't matter, so it's not like you need multiple samples per pulse, but I would just have to wonder about pulse placement accuracy. (ie when did that pulse really occur, did it happen at t=500ns, or t=750ns) Seems like a huge difference to me. The resolution of my timer is 40ns and I've had a fair bit of success with my reader. I'm not trying to imply my 40ns is the gold standard or anything, just pointing out that 40ns samples seem fine. > > --Chuck > Thanks Keith From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 9 00:51:13 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:51:13 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F3B55.4060500@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE2D8.3020504@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EE979.2070400@philpem.me.uk> <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> <4B1F3B55.4060500@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1F48E1.8000905@brouhaha.com> Keith M wrote: > Can you put some rough ballpark numbers on how much total (worst case) > shifting you are talking about, altogether? I'm assuming the shift > would show up as distance/time between pulses, right? Yes. If the system that wrote the disk is doing write precomp with reasonable values, the shifting should be relatively small, under 0.5 us. However, I've seen much more than that. (At least, I think I have. It was consistent enough and pattern-sensitive enough on some disks that I can't explain it by instantaneous speed variation.) > So you are saying that the shift could be enough, for example, to make > two pulses that were written 4us apart appear as if they are 6us apart? Usually having 4 get close to 6 would indicate that the writing system was doing too much precomp. Note that the peak shifting varies with the head position; it's worse on the inner tracks because they have the highest linear bit density. (Same reason that 8" drives need reduced write current on tracks beyond 43.) The precomp is generally set based on an expectation of the inner track behavior, so it can be too much on the outer tracks. > Any good book references for data separation algorithms? Would this > topic be covered in detail, for instance, in some other generic > engineering type reference, or ... ? I've never found any useful published information beyond the data sheets and app notes for the FDC and data separator chips. Best regards, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 9 00:55:59 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:55:59 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F42C6.3070907@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1E8A31.1334.1E673FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1F07E2.2060108@brouhaha.com> <4B1EC8DC.880.2DB4080@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1F42C6.3070907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1F49FF.1040607@brouhaha.com> Keith M wrote: > Let me play devil's advocate. 8x500kbps would be 4mhz. Which means > that your samples are every 250ns. But the pulses come from the drive > are usually 250-300ns wide. _You could potentially miss one._ Now > the pulse WIDTH is fixed and doesn't matter, so it's not like you need > multiple samples per pulse, but I would just have to wonder about > pulse placement accuracy. (ie when did that pulse really occur, did > it happen at t=500ns, or t=750ns) Seems like a huge difference to me. The leading edge of the pulse is what you care about. The floppy drive electronics use a one-shot to generate the pulse, and you don't care how wide the pulse is. If your sampling rate is too low and might miss pulses, you can put the pulse into the async preset input of a D flip-flop, and tie the D input low. For example, using a 74LS74 or equivalent, on every rising clock edge the FF would be set to 0, and the leading edge of a pulse from the floppy drive would set it. A second D FF should be used to register the result from the first one. Eric From cfs at ecs.soton.ac.uk Tue Dec 8 05:12:54 2009 From: cfs at ecs.soton.ac.uk (Colin Snook) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:12:54 +0000 Subject: VLSiCE96 References: <6927BAC0-9028-4954-8CE7-E3950375F22A@ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi, We are looking for a second hand intel VLSiCE96 emulator. I have seen incomplete ones on eBay but would prefer the complete kit including the 'umbilical cord' and software. Does anyone still have these? We are in UK but may be able to arrange shipping etc. Thanks Colin From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Dec 8 05:26:00 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 03:26:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor Message-ID: <111639.75218.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On 7 Dec 2009 at 21:37, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My first instinct says "flyback transformer". Which reminds me, if only I can get the flyback transformer fixed on my old Mac SE I could get it working again! But it's rather specialised I fear :-) -cheers from Julz @P From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 15:30:31 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:30:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Christian Corti wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, J. David Bryan wrote: >>>> Ansgar Kueckes has released a new version of his "HPDrive" disc emulator >>>> that works with HP 64000 logic development stations and HP 1000 MEF-series >>> >>> This is a great project... >>> >>>> minicomputers, in addition to the HP 9845. The emulator is hosted on a >>>> Windows PC with a GPIB interface card and appears to the target system to >>> ^^^^^^^^^^ >>> ... but alas, this makes it pretty useless for me :-( >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but in theory can't an IEEE compatible parallel > > IEEE-what? By definiton an IEEE-488 parallel port can emulate GPIB > because IEEE-488 _is_ GPIB Sorry, typing too fast! I meant IEEE-1284, aka bi-directional printer port. But I think you've answered my question. Steve -- From pinball at telus.net Tue Dec 8 23:31:19 2009 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:31:19 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1F3627.7060906@telus.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When > is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it > is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier > down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and > other stuff I don't want to freeze). > > Zane > > Many non-electronic components are only rated from freezing to just above room temperature for normal operation. Fans for example may not spin if the temp goes much below freezing as the lubricating oil seizes up. Condensation is another problem - old hard/floppy disk/tape drives can crash if moisture collects on the disc (not sealed drives, we are talking oldies). John :-#)# From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 23:37:17 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:37:17 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not too sure, but I remember reading an article about the IBM PS/2 model 25, and how they had to sit and come to room temperature after being moved or something would fry.... On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When is it > to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it is supposed > to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier down (to cold to > run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and other stuff I don't want > to freeze). > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 00:58:22 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 01:58:22 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/9/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:55 PM -0800 12/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 8 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When >>> is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it >>> is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier >>> down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and >>> other stuff I don't want to freeze). >> >>It seems to me that Ethan would be the perfect one to answer this. >>35F is probably a heat wave at the South Pole. > > Except I don't think they run their computers outdoors! :-) But we do use outside air to cool them. It's free except for the power to push it around. (Oh... and +35F is never seen at the Pole - the record is +7.5F, and I've personally been around for +7.0F). As for the extreme case, we've had computers malfunction when outside access doors were left open and -80F air came in directly, bypassing the blowers and the louvers. On a day-to-day basis, the room with the 14 racks that was AMANDA (it was shut down earlier this year after a 10+ year run) shed about 35-40kW of heat with indirect access to outside air with some measure of automatic and manual thermal controls (covering up open cable panels and stuffing blankets in hatches in addition to thermostatic controls on air blowers). If we let the room get over about +55F, the high-voltage supplies for the photomultipler tubes would go into thermal shutdown (ultra-dry air at 650millibars doesn't have much heat capacity). OTOH, and more to the point, if we let the room get much colder than about +35F (say +25F or colder), a specific rack of digital hardware that was adjacent to the floor vents feeding cold air to the high voltage supplies would malfunction until the temp came up to the high thirties to low forties. In another location entirely, central Ohio, I used to rent the basement of my mother's typing and typesetting shop. The building was a late 19th C/early 20th C brick "shotgun" commercial space with a former storm-cellar-type access to the basement. As such, cold air poured from the modern back door, down the basement stairs, and into the space I ran PDP-8s, PDP-11s and a VAX-11/730. One of my jobs at the time was hacking PDP-11 assembler on an 11/23. The basement would routinely get to +40F, and sometimes colder if the wind was from the right direction (the water pipes had electric wraps). I couldn't personally stand to work in that environment without a heater pointed at me, but the computers ran fine. The lone device that had problems was an LA-180 printer I used for listings. It worked down to about +45F, but colder than that, I speculate that the rail lubricant got too viscous, because it would blow carriage motor fuses until it warmed up. I quickly learned not to print on cold nights. I'd say that if you keep things at or above freezing, you are probably perfectly fine. Magnetic media is a lot more sensitive than ICs in terms of cold soaking. One thing to watch for is to not power up cold-soaked electronics. The current inrush is likely to blow ICs (the internal bonded wires between the die and the frame, mostly). I've thawed machines that were left in unheated buildings over the winter at McMurdo - ordinary temps around -45F or so. Specifically in that case (ultra cold, powered off), there are known and published "max rates of rise" of temps to minimize the risk of permanent damage from thermal expansion. A good rule of thumb is about 2-3 degrees per hour. What I did with the cold-soaked computers was to throw them into a lab freezer at -40F for a few hours, then into a lab environmental chamber at -30F that I would tweak up about 5 degrees every couple of hours. When the chamber was up to about +20F, I threw the equipment in a lab refrigerator. The thaw process took two workdays, but 100% of what I treated that way survived (no hard disk - these were floppy-booting diskless PCs that ran from a Novell server). If it gets really cold (+0F, say), I'd bring the disks in the house and leave the CPUs powered off until the garage temps are back around +32F. ICs can be stored down to -40 typically, but not operated at those temps (and especially not put through a power-on cycle at those temps). So that's my experience and observations of cold and computers. Take away from it what you will. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 01:14:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:14:24 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F42C6.3070907@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1EC8DC.880.2DB4080@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1F42C6.3070907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1EDDD0.15853.32D172F@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2009 at 1:25, Keith M wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > CSV = What's this one? Is it CONSTANT speed variation? Comma > separated values keep ruining my google searches (Yes, I've tried > -delimited in the search.) Is this the same as MSV, motor speed > variation? Continuous Speed Variation. See, for example: http://www.tecno.cl/archivos/0314SNY003_ing.pdf On 3.5" direct-drive units, I suspect that some of the ISV is motor noise, in particular "cogging". On belt-driven systems, ISV can arise from small eccentricities, belt defects, bearings, etc. in addition to frictional forces. > Let me play devil's advocate. 8x500kbps would be 4mhz. Which means > that your samples are every 250ns. But the pulses come from the drive > are usually 250-300ns wide. _You could potentially miss one._ Now > the pulse WIDTH is fixed and doesn't matter, so it's not like you need > multiple samples per pulse, but I would just have to wonder about > pulse placement accuracy. (ie when did that pulse really occur, did > it happen at t=500ns, or t=750ns) Seems like a huge difference to me. Well, pulse width has no particular importance when you're reading a floppy; it's largely a function of the drive electronics. You are interested in the read pulse (leading) edges and their placement, however. The only way to miss a pulse is if two crowd into the same sampling period. With a 500KHz clock, that's not possible if your window is 250 usec. So an FM bit cell using a 500 KHz clock (i.e. 8" FM) is 4 usec and contains at most two transitions, one per 2 usec "half". At 4 MHz, each 2 usec "half" would be sampled 8 times, or 16 samples for the whole bit cell. That seems to be more than adquate. With MFM and a 500 KHz clock (8" MFM), the bit cell time decreases to 2 usec, but here is at most only one transition in that 2 usec cell, but the placement lies either at the start of the 2 usec cell or in the middle of it. So we still have 8 samples per cell, "good enough" for reading, I suspect. What do you think? Am I missing something important? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 02:04:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 03:04:32 -0500 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 12/9/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > No denying that. Off the top of my head Ultrix-32 v2 is probably the > minimum you'll get running on a MicroVAX II. I loaded Ultrix T2.0 (pre-release "Test" version?) from TK50 in about 1986 or 1987 on an early MicroVAX II. Prior to that, I loaded some flavor of Ultrix v1 from magtape onto an 11/730 w/RB80 disk. That doesn't say what will or won't work in terms of the boundary cases, but it's two points on the curve. In both cases, I remember that installation took most of a day, and it was a major wait for the kernel to compile. -ethan From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 02:48:35 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:48:35 +0000 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <4B1EC529.12078.2CCCDE4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com>, <4B1F2B8A.1030308@atarimuseum.com> <4B1EC529.12078.2CCCDE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1F6463.8050500@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Dec 2009 at 23:46, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > My thought was to look around for a PC104-interface card if an ISA > one couldn't be found. One could conceivably build a card with its > own microcontroller and UHCI and local RAM. Then even USB 2.0 > wouldn't be a problem on a PC XT, assuming that you could find the > appropriate drivers. The FTDI vinculum would be suitable for this, that's what the DataCentre for the BBC micro uses, to allow it to read disk image files off a USB stick. The good thing about the Vinculum, and some of FTDI's other USB interface chips, is that to the host computer they just present an 8 bit interface, so talking to them is essentialy a matter of an address decoder and writing the apropreate drivers. Cheers, Phill. From pt at new.rr.com Wed Dec 9 03:25:35 2009 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 03:25:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd run one for several years in an unheated/cooled attic with extremes both ways. It was an old P-II and ate one cpu and one nic over about three years, cpu was likely caused by x weeks with the fan locked. No hdisk or mb probs. Low temps were sub zero F in the attic confirmed by an external thermodongle. On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 21:19:55 -0800 > From: Zane H. Healy > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Running Computers Cold > > Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When is it > to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it is supposed to > get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier down (to cold to run > it) and setup a heater near the computers (and other stuff I don't want to > freeze). > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 9 03:36:03 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:36:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1E6AF9.13510.16C8283@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1E6AF9.13510.16C8283@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://torlus.com/floppy/index.php?en Interesting, but since I have enough floppies and floppy drives until eternity I guess I won't ever need such an emulator. Christian From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 08:49:55 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:49:55 -0500 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> References: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B1FB913.6080305@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. > > I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. I know for a fact that there once was made a USB interface for non-Cardbus PCMCIA, because I have one. I would assume this card would Just Work(tm) in an ISA->PCMCIA adapter. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:01:54 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:01:54 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1FBBE2.2030901@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > the time was hacking PDP-11 assembler on an 11/23. The basement would > routinely get to +40F, and sometimes colder if the wind was from the > right direction (the water pipes had electric wraps). I couldn't > personally stand to work in that environment without a heater pointed > at me, but the computers ran fine. The lone device that had problems Having lived for most of my life in New York State, I can verify that computers run just fine at 35F. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:01:49 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:01:49 -0800 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <4B1F129F.4030801@mail.msu.edu> References: , <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu>, <4B1F129F.4030801@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Hi Get a nice new, clean and dry, piece of tygon tubing from the hardware store. Put one end to your ear and the other probe around. when close the sound should increase. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail is faster and more secure than ever. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.aspx?ocid=PID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_1:092009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:14:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:14:41 -0500 Subject: PCMCIA (not Cardbus) interface (was Re: isa usb card) Message-ID: On 12/9/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I know for a fact that there once was made a USB interface for > non-Cardbus PCMCIA, because I have one. I would assume this card would > Just Work(tm) in an ISA->PCMCIA adapter. What's the vendor and part number? I once had a Dell Latitude LM I bought new in 1996 that was running Solaris 7 or RedHat Linux depending on what disk I had installed (I recently saw the Solaris 7 disk for it in my box of 2.5" IDE disks). The Dell FAQ at the time said that there was no way to put a USB port on the machine (I think it was one of the last name-brand laptops to not have that capability). For machines of that era, a PCMCIA (not-Cardbus) USB adapter would be perfect, depending on driver support (i.e. - something more than Win95 or Win98). I have some interesting machines, like a Planar-brand 486-based "medical PC" that's sort of like a wall-mount tablet or laptop - no batteries, but has a built-in LCD, PCMCIA, one ISA, *external* IDE CD-ROM interface (DB-44HD), external floppy (DB-25), that could use a USB 1.1 interface for either external storage or unusual HID goodies. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 9 09:40:15 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:40:15 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 1:58 AM -0500 12/9/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >If it gets really cold (+0F, say), I'd bring the disks in the house >and leave the CPUs powered off until the garage temps are back around >+32F. ICs can be stored down to -40 typically, but not operated at >those temps (and especially not put through a power-on cycle at those >temps). > >So that's my experience and observations of cold and computers. Take >away from it what you will. Thanks for the info Ethan. I ran with a modern electric heater (we bought it less than a year ago) pointed at the rack on the lowest setting. As a result the temp was 45F over the night. This is compared to 30F over by the door. We got down to 11F last night, for us that's *COLD*, in fact I'm fairly sure it broke a record for the day, and is about the coldest I've ever seen around here (I've lived here my whole life except 10 years in the Navy). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 9 09:42:23 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:42:23 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:25 AM -0600 12/9/09, Paul Thompson wrote: >I'd run one for several years in an unheated/cooled attic with >extremes both ways. It was an old P-II and ate one cpu and one nic >over about three years, cpu was likely caused by x weeks with the >fan locked. No hdisk or mb probs. Low temps were sub zero F in the >attic confirmed by an external thermodongle. At 10:01 AM -0500 12/9/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Having lived for most of my life in New York State, I can verify >that computers run just fine at 35F. Okay, based on these two notes, I'll turn the heater off (at least during the day), besides the rack is next to the door leading into the house. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 9 09:44:56 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:44:56 -0700 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1FC5F8.3030000@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:55 PM -0800 12/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When >>> is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it >>> is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier >>> down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and >>> other stuff I don't want to freeze). >> >> It seems to me that Ethan would be the perfect one to answer this. >> 35F is probably a heat wave at the South Pole. > > Except I don't think they run their computers outdoors! :-) But they do! The tubes keep them warm. :) > Zane > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 9 09:56:40 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:56:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <4B1FB913.6080305@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Dec 9, 9 09:49:55 am" Message-ID: <200912091556.nB9Fuf1e016740@floodgap.com> > > > Does such a thing exist? I know, I'm a masochist. > > > > I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. > > I know for a fact that there once was made a USB interface for > non-Cardbus PCMCIA, because I have one. I would assume this card would > Just Work(tm) in an ISA->PCMCIA adapter. Oh, that's true. I forgot about those (I had also seen one back in the day -- I remember we had that discussion earlier). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The fastest way to fold a map is differently. ------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 9 10:02:16 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:02:16 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > We got down to 11F last night, for us that's *COLD*, in fact I'm > fairly sure it broke a record for the day, and is about the coldest > I've ever seen around here (I've lived here my whole life except 10 > years in the Navy). You know...upon hearing something like this, I'd ordinarily pipe up with a chorus of "TIME TO MOVE!" but this time I'm actually pretty jealous. My air conditioner died last night and the service company hasn't come to fix it yet. It's 82degF and climbing in the house, and I feel like I'm gonna barf. It's 79degF outside. I've powered off all the nonessentials, but the remaining essentials still constitutes a rack of gear. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:02:19 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:02:19 -0800 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <4B1FB913.6080305@gmail.com> References: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> <4B1FB913.6080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912090802k1398efe7uff169626d2536798@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>> Does such a thing exist? ?I know, I'm a masochist. >> >> I would wonder if the bus could handle the bandwidth needed. > > I know for a fact that there once was made a USB interface for non-Cardbus > PCMCIA, because I have one. ?I would assume this card would Just Work(tm) in > an ISA->PCMCIA adapter. > > Peace... ?Sridhar > Standard UHCI, OHCI, or EHCI host controllers can not be placed directly on an ISA or PCMCIA bus as by definition they are PCI busmaster devices. Several years ago I talked to one company that was going to try to put an OHCI host controller in a PCMCIA card by attaching it to some interface glue logic and local RAM to operate with for it's busmaster activity. From a software point of view the result would be different enough from the standard PCI based OHCI interface that the standard Windows OHCI driver could never support it and I don't think they ever produced a real product. Such a product would require non-standard device specific drivers, which you have have to find for whatever OS you were trying to use with the controller. It would be easier to interface an embedded device type of USB host controller such as the ISP1161 to an ISA or PCMCIA bus, but then you would still have to find device specific drivers for whatever OS you were trying to use with the controller. That link for the EB1161ISA ISP1161 ISA board says "This is a legacy product that has not been manufactured for an extended period of time." From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 9 10:40:11 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:40:11 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Keith M wrote: >> My amiga disk reader doesn't sample at all. I look for falling edges >> of the pulses, clear a timer, look for the next edge, and calculate >> the time difference between two pulses. The time between pulses >> define the data, and I write out the associated data pattern to memory. > That's still sampling. The time quantization is the resolution of the > timer. Eric, Thanks for the discussion. I guess I've had some misconceptions and am trying to work them out. When I think of sampling, I think of regularly recording the value of a pin every so many units of time. So it's possible to miss pulses/edges/etc if they happen to fall in between the samples. Then I'm thinking of polling a pin where you do this sort of thing: waitforlow: if pin != low then waitforlow And then edge detection comes to mind, where polling or sampling could potentially miss a very small pulse(perhaps a couple clocks wide) --- edge detection would detect it. My mind also goes to bit-banged UARTs for serial ports. Isn't there a difference in implementation to a sampled-approach? Or is the difference just that bit-banged ones sample once, and the other usually samples multiple times? I guess I see "sampling" as a repetitive based-on-clock behavior and differentiate that from a one-time-read of a pin where the next read isn't well-defined. Ie, the code path to the next read isn't necessarily the same each time. Does any of my ramblings make sense? Is it all just semantics? Thanks Keith From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 11:55:50 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:55:50 -0800 Subject: ISO: 147533-001 ISBC 286/12 SBC Hardware Ref Man Message-ID: <4B1FE4A6.1030706@bitsavers.org> Anyone have the manuals for Intel's 286/12 board, and the later iSBC 215 board (215b) that directly supported 5" drives (used WD controller chips)? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 12:05:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:05:27 -0800 Subject: CNC info wanted Message-ID: <4B1F7667.20124.8A97CC@cclist.sydex.com> I'm looking for information on the Excellon CNC-6 controller. I believe this is a Z8000-based system from the 80's still in fairly wide use. Mostly, I'm interested in general information regarding details on the hardware. If you can offer some illumination, please contact me off-list, if you feel that this isn't appropriate for discussion (I've not seen much mention of CNC controllers to date). Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 12:16:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:16:27 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com>, <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1F78FB.20245.94AC1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2009 at 11:40, Keith M wrote: > When I think of sampling, I think of regularly recording the value of > a pin every so many units of time. So it's possible to miss > pulses/edges/etc if they happen to fall in between the samples. Many uCs have at least an "interrupt on edge" on some of their I/O pins. Absent that, you need only hook up a flip-flop to toggle every time a pulse is received ("T" FF). Then your polling loop would look something like: waitforpulse: if pin == lastvalue then waitforpulse lastvalue = pin; That way, as long as your loop executes in less time than the minimum time between pulses, you won't miss any. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 12:16:26 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:16:26 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/09 8:40 AM, Keith M wrote: > Thanks for the discussion. > > I guess I've had some misconceptions and am trying to work them out. > > When I think of sampling, I think of regularly recording the value of a > pin every so many units of time. There is no need to record every value if it is only a binary signal, you can store the delta time to the next transition. This is the difference on a logic analyzer between 'state' and 'timing' modes. In 'state' mode, you sample and save every signal at each event. In 'timing' mode, a high resolution clock is used to measure the durations of each signal. The argument is how much accuracy is required to accurately describe the flux transition points in time, given the positional jitter introduced by the recording and playback mechanisms, and the distortion that occurs in the magnetic medium depending upon the pulse rate of the recording. Another problem is even though it is using saturation recording, the media may have flaws, or the head may clog due to shed, causing pulses to drop out. Data recovery has to cope with the fact there may be pulse dropouts, sometimes requiring the recovery program to 'wiggle' the head across tracks to try to rub the clog off of the heads. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 13:01:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:01:30 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net>, <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B1F838A.25866.BDE93F@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2009 at 10:16, Al Kossow wrote: > There is no need to record every value if it is only a binary signal, > you can store the delta time to the next transition. This is the > difference on a logic analyzer between 'state' and 'timing' modes. In > 'state' mode, you sample and save every signal at each event. In > 'timing' mode, a high resolution clock is used to measure the > durations of each signal. Aside from mechanical issues, I wonder how stable the ubiquitous MC3470 read-channel IC and its ilk are in 5.25" and 8" drives. The datasheet doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I don't think there's a lot ot be gained by excessive oversampling. --Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 13:26:28 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:26:28 -0800 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:19:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: > >>Have we even succeeded in figuring out Stonehenge and the Antikythera >>mechanism? > > Stonehenge yes most definately. > the Antikythera mechanism many still feal no. I think there is a working model of the Antikythera mechanism built now. I think it has been figured out. I would say yes to both. For really long term storage (1000 years or more) Paper buried in anaerobic mud works. Paxton Astoria, Oregon -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 12:30:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:30:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <111639.75218.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Julian Skidmore" at Dec 8, 9 03:26:00 am Message-ID: > > Which reminds me, if only I can get the flyback transformer fixed on > my old Mac SE I could get it working again! But it's rather specialised > I fear :-) > In general flyback transformers are very much specific to the unit they're used in. There used to be generic replacements for TV flybacks back in the 1950s (they had extra tappings, etc, you wired them up approprialtely for the set they were to be used in), but I've never heard of them for modern equipment. Needless to say Apple never supplied any Mac flyback as a spare part. There were companes who made replacement flybacks for common monitors/TVs, and I suspect at least some classic Macs were covered. But I have no idea if they're still available. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 12:34:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:34:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912081213p48ac3dd9xfb67da565ad07bf8@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Dec 8, 9 02:13:54 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > _What_ flashes on/off? The screen (If so, it sounds like a beam limiter > > problem, the circuitry is detecting excessive CRT beam current and > > cutting the CRT off to protect it). THe power-on LED (sounds like the > > SMPSU Is tripping and restarting, maybe a short somewhere in the > > horizontal output stage). > > > > The display flashes on and off. It turns on and wiggles for a split second > like normal, lasts half a second, then goes out. Next second repeats. It's > a trinitron tube if that matters. Does this monitor have a power-on LED? If so, what is it doing? What are the CRT heaters doing? Do they go on and off too? With something like this my first reaction would be to stick an analogue votlmeter on some of the supply rails (they're often marked on the PCB [1], anywy you might well get a service manual for a Sony monitor) and on the CRT pins. See what, if any, supplies are pulsing on and off, see what CRT pins are changing in voltage. [1] I have a little Torch-badged Trinitron monitor on my XXX which has an amazing amount of useful information marked on the PCBs. Voltages, signals, CRT pinout, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 13:04:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:04:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "J. David Bryan" at Dec 9, 9 00:18:59 am Message-ID: > > On Tuesday, December 8, 2009 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Are you sure? > > Yes. Very interesting. I've never seen another HP drive unit (hard, floppy or tape) that uses the 9914. > There were several different controller cards used in these, including > different ones for the same model, depending on the date code. Tjhat does not suprise me... > > > > Can you please check the 9134A uses a 9914. > > See "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (part > number 09134-90032, August 1983). Section II, page 1-4 says, in part: > > "The HP-IB bus controller (9914 HP-IB chip) manages the data transfers > across the HP-IB channel." > > This is from the section entitled, "Winchester Controller PCA Theory of > Operation (88134-69910, 09135-69515, and 09135-69501)." The last part > number is the one in my 9134A. OK. I will ook at the manual on the Australian museum site sometime. I am just curious... > > There's a photograph of the card on page 1-8, and you can see the 9914 chip > on the board. > > The 9133V and XV used controller part number 09133-69508, according to > Section III, page 1-2 of the aforementioned manual. Section III, page 1-5 > says that controller uses an 8291A. Certainlyk my 9133V and 9133VX use an 8291 chip, on both the hard disk and floppy controllers (these units appear as 2 HPIB devices, and have totally separate hard and floppy contoller boards which link to the same HPIB connector). >From what I rememebr, the following also use 8291 GPIB chips : 9121 (Amigo), 9122 (SS/80), 8123 (SS/80), 9133H (SS/80 -- unlike the earier 9133s, this has one contoller board for both the floppy and hard disks, it appears as one HPIB device), 82901 (Amigo). The HP7959 (CS/80) uses a Medusa chip IIRC, as does the 9153/9154. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 12:44:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:44:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: <130C2E75-238E-4CAD-847F-65302FB9332D@voysys.com> from "Marden P. Marshall" at Dec 8, 9 03:49:57 pm Message-ID: > Here they are. It probably would be nice to get them onto bitsavers. > > http://web.me.com/mardy/iWeb/ZAX/ICD278_Part1.pdf > http://web.me.com/mardy/iWeb/ZAX/ICD278_Part2.pdf Thanks. They will be a great help if I ever get this darn thing working... Fortuantely it's almost all standard chips inside (a few programmed parts IIRC) so I'll ignroe the ridiculaor statement in the manual [1] and have a go at fixig it. When I'm short of a project... [1] 'No userer serviceable parts inside'. I can just about understnad that on a TV set where many users probably can't service it. But on an ICE? An instrument used by microcomputer designers? Be serious! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 12:41:25 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:41:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: <4B1E4425.13301.D4D5E6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 9 12:18:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Dec 2009 at 19:19, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don't think a PC printer port can do that, can it? A Victor > > 9000/Sirius printer port on the other hand... > > Depends on the device. If you have a bidirectional printer port (or > hack a unidirectional one to be so) you can communicate with a > variety of GPIB devices, so long as you're not sharing the bus with > more than one device. I thought you had enough outputs to have an ATN line, so you could do addressing. I think you can have multiple devices hooked up to a PC printer port pretending to be GPIB. But I don;t thinkl you can respond to paralell polls on the PC. I seem to remembr you are short of I/O lines, you can't have all of the bus control lines. Missing out EOI and SRQ is not a problem if you just wnat to talk to an HPIB plotter, it is a big problem if you are tryin to emulate an HPIB disk drive. > Many years ago, I wrote a DOS TSR to drive a HP plotter with HPIB > interface from a PC XT with a bidirectional-hacked port. It > redirected the BIOS printer service interrupt, so you installed > whatever software you had (in my case, SuperCalc) and told it you had > a parallel-interface version. > > I think I used a modified version of the software to later talk to a > HP voltmeter. > > It's probably still buried somewhere in the SIMTEL library. If not, I have one of your GPIB-on-a-printer port programs here. It's the old one that uses an original PC printer port card with the well-knwon cut-and-jumper mod (why this isn't docuemtned in the IBM manuals is beyond me, the board is clearly laid out for it). -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 9 13:34:53 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:34:53 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B1FFBDD.4070904@verizon.net> Al Kossow wrote: > There is no need to record every value if it is only a binary signal, you > can store the delta time to the next transition. With my current implementation, I take that one step further, and process the delta T's within the hardware, to see if they fall in a particular range, and then store this equivalent RAW MFM data in the memory. And then transfer contents of memory (once bit aligned with the sync word, also in hardware) via USB to the PC. I understand where having the raw delta T's inside a PC/or something with more power, makes sense. > This is the difference on > a logic analyzer between 'state' and 'timing' modes. In 'state' mode, you > sample and save every signal at each event. In 'timing' mode, a high > resolution > clock is used to measure the durations of each signal. My (limited) understanding was that timing mode you used a clock source internal(ie local oscillator) to the logic analyzer to determine when to sample --- it not synchronized with the DUT. And state mode was an external clock, synchronized with the clock present within the DUT, which told the LA when to sample. At least that's how I understood it. This is how I've used both my LAs... Thanks Keith From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 13:35:08 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:35:08 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1F838A.25866.BDE93F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net>, <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> <4B1F838A.25866.BDE93F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1FFBEC.4080400@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/09 11:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think there's > a lot ot be gained by excessive oversampling. > You probably have more experience with odd formats and using the Catweasel. Is there anything you've run into that couldn't be dealt with using the sample rates on that board? Did you ever experiment with the sampling rates on double-density data? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 14:36:52 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:36:52 -0300 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor References: Message-ID: <041f01ca790f$60b3b1e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Which reminds me, if only I can get the flyback transformer fixed on >> my old Mac SE I could get it working again! But it's rather specialised >> I fear :-) This is something easy to get. An old analogic board or a look at hr diemen catalog can save you From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Dec 9 13:45:20 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:45:20 -0500 Subject: Pinging Ian Primus Message-ID: Has anyone heard from Ian lately? I've been trying to contact him at the address ian_primus at yahoo.com with no luck. Thanks, David From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 9 13:55:46 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:55:46 -0500 Subject: Visible Storage exhibit @ CHM Message-ID: <4B2000C2.3030706@snarc.net> Hi all. I got an email from the Computer History Museum (that's the BIG one in California) ... says they're closing the main exhibit this month, and it will re-open bigger and better toward the end of next year. So now's a good time to go visit them before they redesign it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 9 13:57:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:57:28 -0500 Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] 'No userer serviceable parts inside'. I can just about understnad > that on a TV set where many users probably can't service it. But on an > ICE? An instrument used by microcomputer designers? Be serious! Eh...those labels are only put there to placate the manufacturers' legal departments. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 14:03:21 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:03:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091209115826.J1626@shell.lmi.net> Don't REAL computers generate their own heat? (and too much of it) Even a small lab packed with 5150s has enough heat. Course, if you use new-fangled machines with LCD monitors, and those half-height or smaller hard drives, you might need to supplement. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 9 14:14:41 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <983052.8648.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> There's no way in hell I'd want to try and fix one of the old ICE's we used for 8051s at my work. Talk about a pandora's box! ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 1:57:28 PM Subject: Re: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger On Dec 9, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] 'No userer serviceable parts inside'. I can just about understnad > that on a TV set where many users probably can't service it. But on an > ICE? An instrument used by microcomputer designers? Be serious! Eh...those labels are only put there to placate the manufacturers' legal departments. -Dave --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 9 14:15:51 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:15:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <20091209115826.J1626@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <20091209115826.J1626@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I have the following in two wooden racks in the garage. DEC VAXstation 4000/60 w/BA350 and 1 RZ28 (VAX/VMS 5.5-2) Compaq XP1000/667 w/2 JBOD boxes of 3 drives each (mixture of 3.5x1" and 3.5x1.6" drives) (OpenVMS 8.3) HP Pentium III tower The system console for the three is a VT420 in the "Computer Lab" part of the garage that is turned off. Air coming out of the back of the XP1000 last night was cool, air coming out of the 3 Drive JBOD box I checked was cold. Last night I ran with a small electric heater that got the temp in front of the one rack up to ~45F. I'd be tempted to shut the VAX down and move it to the top of the rack the other two are in. With temps like these, I pray we don't loose power, as that's when this could get very ugly, and I'd definitely have to be careful about warming things up. At that point I might haul everything into my office, except I don't think I have enough power in there (and I don't want the noise). The P3 and the Alpha both serve data on the Internet, and the Alpha and VAX are on HECnet as well (International DECnet), so I'd prefer to keep them online. Zane On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > Don't REAL computers generate their own heat? (and too much of it) > > > Even a small lab packed with 5150s has enough heat. > > > Course, if you use new-fangled machines with LCD monitors, > and those half-height or smaller hard drives, > you might need to supplement. > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Dec 9 14:25:08 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:25:08 +0000 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> Sorry to state the obvious, but it depends on the computer. When I used to work on military computers they were rated down to -55C I think. The parts which were only connected in a lab were rated down to 0C/32F. My old Germanium transistor machine turns itself off below 10C/50F because thats what Mullard / GEC (the British one), the transistor manufacturers specified. Now they are getting on for 50 years old I don't power it up below 13C/55F. Normally we shut down the restoration project in November but today, with the aid of a couple of fan heaters, we were working on it. Increased levels of solar radiation has a few advantages, though its due to peak in 2012 I'm told. I imagine with valves, the potential problem would be the glass cracking. Cold is certainly more of a problem than overheating, generally if an operator can stand the heat so can the computer. I've heard tales of old ICT 1301s being operated by people stripped down to their pants (underpants for those to the left of the pond) when the air conditioning failed because otherwise the payroll run would not be done, and of course they themselves would not be paid as well as taking flak from all the other workers. At work back in the 80s I had an Apple ][ euro-plus or maybe it was an Apple ///, anyway it was fitted with an external 'ICE' winchester drive. ICE being the brand. As we moved into winter it took longer and longer to start up in the morning depending on the temperature. We used to laugh at how appropriate the name was. Of course it eventually failed completely but at least we got a lot of warning and had a fairly full backup. Roger Holmes On 9 Dec 2009, at 06:56, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 21:19:55 -0800 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Running Computers Cold > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When > is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it > is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the > dehumidifier down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the > computers (and other stuff I don't want to freeze). From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 9 14:32:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:32:24 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> References: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > I've heard tales of old ICT 1301s being operated by people stripped > down to their pants (underpants for those to the left of the pond) > when the air conditioning failed because otherwise the payroll run > would not be done, and of course they themselves would not be paid > as well as taking flak from all the other workers. A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a minicomputer...what an image! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Dec 9 14:44:29 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:44:29 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> References: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 12:32 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Running Computers Cold > > On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > I've heard tales of old ICT 1301s being operated by people stripped > > down to their pants (underpants for those to the left of the pond) > > when the air conditioning failed because otherwise the payroll run > > would not be done, and of course they themselves would not be paid > > as well as taking flak from all the other workers. > > A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a > minicomputer...what an image! > > -Dave > > I gotta stop reading ClassicCmp while I'm eating lunch.... -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 14:55:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:55:35 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FFBEC.4080400@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1F838A.25866.BDE93F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B1FFBEC.4080400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B1F9E47.25324.1265D0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2009 at 11:35, Al Kossow wrote: > You probably have more experience with odd formats and using the > Catweasel. Is there anything you've run into that couldn't be dealt > with using the sample rates on that board? Did you ever experiment > with the sampling rates on double-density data? I've never run into anything that could be classified as "vintage" (>20 years old) that couldn't be handled with the original ISA Mk I board (I do have a MK 3 and a MK 4, but they almost never get used). The clock rates on the CW are somewhat limited, so I haven't done much there. Generally, I aim for the shortest interval between transitions to be about 10-20 clocks, which seems to give adequate results. I wonder if there's anything to be gained by using a sample clock that's a power-of-two multiple of the data rate. It could be argued that dividing an MFM bit cell into 7 sample intervals rather than 8 would lead to a more accurate center-of-cell reading. My current project uses a 14.3MHz clock instead of a 16. I'll know more when I get it running. The saving grace in all of this floppy business is that, unlike hard drives, the push was to make floppies physically smaller, while keeping more-or-less the same capacity. If the same product development had been followed using hard drives, we might be looking at 30MB hard drives the size of the head of a pin... --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 9 15:15:11 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:15:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 9, 9 03:32:24 pm" Message-ID: <200912092115.nB9LFB0q016406@floodgap.com> > > I've heard tales of old ICT 1301s being operated by people stripped > > down to their pants (underpants for those to the left of the pond) > > when the air conditioning failed because otherwise the payroll run > > would not be done, and of course they themselves would not be paid > > as well as taking flak from all the other workers. > > A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a > minicomputer...what an image! Well, so much for my lunch break. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Put down your guns, it's Weasel Stomping Day! ------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 9 15:16:51 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:16:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <20091209115826.J1626@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Dec 9, 9 12:03:21 pm" Message-ID: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> > Don't REAL computers generate their own heat? (and too much of it) Since moving my servers in, I have never had to use my central heating. Ever. Granted, this is "sunny So Cal" but we've been getting below freezing at night this last week, and the servers are saving money on the gas bill. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- WWJD? JWRTFM. -------------------------------------------------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 15:24:29 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:24:29 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B20158D.4090800@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > The basement would > routinely get to +40F, and sometimes colder if the wind was from the > right direction (the water pipes had electric wraps). I couldn't > personally stand to work in that environment without a heater pointed > at me, but the computers ran fine. Yeah, that's what temp we run stuff down to overnight at this time of year (I don't bother keeping the office any hotter overnight). No problems so far, but that's with modern hardware; I'm not sure if vintage kit is better or worse for cold temperatures (I've certainly had vintage hard disks that would only work when cold, and others that would only work when warm :-) That's also hardware which just gets left on - like you say, powering something up that's cold might be more risky. I've always let vintage kit brought in from cold environments acclimatize for a few hours before turning it on. (it's currently 1.9F outside here, -15F with windchill) cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 9 15:28:11 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:28:11 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2AA6C0FCD3B043B394683BF0825EAF0C@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: Re: Running Computers Cold >> Don't REAL computers generate their own heat? (and too much of it) > > Since moving my servers in, I have never had to use my central heating. > Ever. > Granted, this is "sunny So Cal" but we've been getting below freezing at > night this last week, and the servers are saving money on the gas bill. > > -- Here in the rust belt gas heating is cheaper then electric, but I guess California could be different. I still remeber Rusty from Rusty-n-Edies BBS bragging how the 128 nodes of their BBS were running on 286 machines and they alone kept the house warm in the cold Ohio winters. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 9 15:25:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:25:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Don't REAL computers generate their own heat? (and too much of it) > > Since moving my servers in, I have never had to use my central heating. Ever. > Granted, this is "sunny So Cal" but we've been getting below freezing at > night this last week, and the servers are saving money on the gas bill. After my wife and I got married we lived in an apartment for 8 years. During that time we turned on the heat maybe a half dozen times, and quite frequently would have to open up and let cold air in when it was freezing out. Now that we own a house, and the computers are in the garage we're using the heat a lot. I was looking at the computers being out there as a way to help keep the temperature a bit warmer, but with this cold spell, it isn't working. Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 9 15:34:30 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:34:30 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B2017E6.2070004@brouhaha.com> Keith M wrote: > My mind also goes to bit-banged UARTs for serial ports. Isn't there a > difference in implementation to a sampled-approach? Or is the > difference just that bit-banged ones sample once, and the other > usually samples multiple times? Typical bit-banged UART Rx works slightly differently depending on whether you get an interrupt for the leading edge of the start bit. If you do, you start sampling every bit once, starting about 1/2 bit time after the interrupt. If you don't get a leading edge interrupt, you need to sample continuously at a rate higher than twice the bit rate. > Does any of my ramblings make sense? Is it all just semantics? Yes, it makes sense, and yes, apparently we just were using different semantics for the word "sampling". Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 15:35:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:35:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <2AA6C0FCD3B043B394683BF0825EAF0C@dell8300> References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> <2AA6C0FCD3B043B394683BF0825EAF0C@dell8300> Message-ID: <20091209133331.X7166@shell.lmi.net> I've seen quite a few Peltier based CPU coolers, with fans. Reversing the polarity on one of those for a while should be enough to warm the computer, at least enough for the CPU to take over the heating tasks. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 9 15:41:22 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:41:22 -0800 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> <4B1FE97A.5030406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B201982.7000809@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > There is no need to record every value if it is only a binary signal, you > can store the delta time to the next transition. This is the > difference on > a logic analyzer between 'state' and 'timing' modes. In 'state' mode, you > sample and save every signal at each event. In 'timing' mode, a high > resolution > clock is used to measure the durations of each signal. Not all logic analyzers store delta times when operated in "timing mode". That's an optimization that seems very worthwhile, but if you look at actual logic analyzer specs, many of them even in timing mode will only record for a fixed number of sampled determined by the depth of their buffer. :-( In principle, storing timing deltas rather than full samples could be useful in state mode also, but I don't think I've ever seen an analyzer that does that. The only consistent interpretation of "state mode" vs. "timing mode" is that state mode samples on a clock signal provided by the target hardware, while "timing mode" samples on a clock internally generated in the logic analyzer. > Another problem is even though it is using saturation recording, the > media may have > flaws, or the head may clog due to shed, causing pulses to drop out. > Data recovery > has to cope with the fact there may be pulse dropouts, sometimes > requiring the > recovery program to 'wiggle' the head across tracks to try to rub the > clog off of > the heads. Interesting. That's another argument for controlling the stepper motor directly, and using microstepping. I had considered that as a way to read disks with non-standard TPI. You still have to have a narrow enough head to accomodate the track width, but it should work to let you read 100TPI disks in a 96TPI drive, or vice versa. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 15:46:10 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:46:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091209133758.N7166@shell.lmi.net> Ethan's post seems to be the definitive answers to those questions. Well worth saving. On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > But we do use outside air to cool them. It's free except for the > power to push it around. (Oh... and +35F is never seen at the Pole - > the record is +7.5F, and I've personally been around for +7.0F). If it ever goes to 35F at the poles for more than a transient, then my house becomes either beachfront, or under water. > into a lab freezer at -40F for a few hours, then into a lab . . . > ICs can be stored down to -40 typically, but not operated . . . You've been very conscientious about identifying every temperature number as either C or F. I've often wondered whether you would do so with -40. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 15:47:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:47:17 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com>, Message-ID: <4B1FAA65.20063.155B2F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2009 at 13:25, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now that we own a house, and the computers are in the garage we're > using the heat a lot. I was looking at the computers being out there > as a way to help keep the temperature a bit warmer, but with this cold > spell, it isn't working. If you're worried about sub-freezing temps, it might be worthwhile investigating an old root-cellar trick. Fill a big tub with water (hot or cold doesn't matter) and place it by the gear you want to protect. The heat of fusion of water is quite high and might serve to protect your sensitive equipment should the power fail. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:08:41 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:08:41 -0600 Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: <111639.75218.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <111639.75218.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B201FE9.1070400@gmail.com> Julian Skidmore wrote: > On 7 Dec 2009 at 21:37, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> My first instinct says "flyback transformer". > > Which reminds me, if only I can get the flyback transformer fixed on my old > Mac SE I could get it working again! But it's rather specialised I fear :-) If it's arcing then I believe a repair can sometimes be effective - dig out the damaged area and epoxy. If it's a short or break, though... From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Dec 9 16:22:34 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:22:34 -0500 Subject: Disc reader project -- quick status update In-Reply-To: <4B2017E6.2070004@brouhaha.com> References: <4B1C52D6.5050602@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1CDEBD.4070405@philpem.me.uk>, <4B1D325D.7010705@gmail.com> <4B1CE7EE.9739.762155@cclist.sydex.com> <4B1D71B7.60401@gmail.com> <4B1E1A5D.2070302@philpem.me.uk> <4B1ED1D9.7000205@gmail.com> <4B1EDD48.1030704@verizon.net> <4B1F065F.6010301@brouhaha.com> <4B1FD2EB.7050000@verizon.net> <4B2017E6.2070004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B20232A.5000202@verizon.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Typical bit-banged UART Rx works slightly differently depending on > whether you get an interrupt for the leading edge of the start bit. If > you do, you start sampling every bit once, starting about 1/2 bit time > after the interrupt. If you don't get a leading edge interrupt, you > need to sample continuously at a rate higher than twice the bit rate. So I split the difference with my bit-banged uart. :) I just constantly poll the data line until I see a start bit, and then count 1.5*bit_period instructions until I get to the middle of the first bit, and then my loop takes exactly 1 bit_period from read to read. Even at 2mbps, this works pretty good. I've done some testing with it, and it worked reliably sending almost 3 gigabits of traffic through it without a single bit error. I happen to only need to receive and transmit at particular times when the uC is sitting there doing nothing. Meaning I don't need to be interrupted...... My transmitting code works good too, although I ran into an interesting situation where MOVing a binary-0 to the port takes slightly more (or less? I forget) than MOVing a binary-1 to the port. MOV on my controller is just a mnemonic --- the actual machine code is made up of "skip next instructions", setb, and clrb....... This results in a couple clocks difference based on the data that needs transmitting. UARTs are forgiving enough, so there was no real issue, but interesting nonetheless. Since I have no formal training on this stuff, it's neat to compare my first attempt at things, and see how they differ from the "correct" or "most accepted" way of doing things. Sometimes, I'm right on the money. And most times, I'm WAY off. :) Keith From ikvsabre at comcast.net Wed Dec 9 16:23:18 2009 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:23:18 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200912091723180500.0047624A@smtp.comcast.net> I would tend to think at the South Pole, the humidity is fairly low. That is one of the biggest considerations, as in areas of higher humidity, the changes of condensation is higher. Joe On 12/9/2009 at 1:58 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >On 12/9/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 9:55 PM -0800 12/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>On 8 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> >>>> Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When >>>> is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it >>>> is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier >>>> down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and >>>> other stuff I don't want to freeze). >>> >>>It seems to me that Ethan would be the perfect one to answer this. >>>35F is probably a heat wave at the South Pole. >> >> Except I don't think they run their computers outdoors! :-) > >But we do use outside air to cool them. It's free except for the >power to push it around. (Oh... and +35F is never seen at the Pole - >the record is +7.5F, and I've personally been around for +7.0F). > >As for the extreme case, we've had computers malfunction when outside >access doors were left open and -80F air came in directly, bypassing >the blowers and the louvers. On a day-to-day basis, the room with the >14 racks that was AMANDA (it was shut down earlier this year after a >10+ year run) shed about 35-40kW of heat with indirect access to >outside air with some measure of automatic and manual thermal controls >(covering up open cable panels and stuffing blankets in hatches in >addition to thermostatic controls on air blowers). If we let the room >get over about +55F, the high-voltage supplies for the photomultipler >tubes would go into thermal shutdown (ultra-dry air at 650millibars >doesn't have much heat capacity). OTOH, and more to the point, if we >let the room get much colder than about +35F (say +25F or colder), a >specific rack of digital hardware that was adjacent to the floor vents >feeding cold air to the high voltage supplies would malfunction until >the temp came up to the high thirties to low forties. > >In another location entirely, central Ohio, I used to rent the >basement of my mother's typing and typesetting shop. The building was >a late 19th C/early 20th C brick "shotgun" commercial space with a >former storm-cellar-type access to the basement. As such, cold air >poured from the modern back door, down the basement stairs, and into >the space I ran PDP-8s, PDP-11s and a VAX-11/730. One of my jobs at >the time was hacking PDP-11 assembler on an 11/23. The basement would >routinely get to +40F, and sometimes colder if the wind was from the >right direction (the water pipes had electric wraps). I couldn't >personally stand to work in that environment without a heater pointed >at me, but the computers ran fine. The lone device that had problems >was an LA-180 printer I used for listings. It worked down to about >+45F, but colder than that, I speculate that the rail lubricant got >too viscous, because it would blow carriage motor fuses until it >warmed up. I quickly learned not to print on cold nights. > >I'd say that if you keep things at or above freezing, you are probably >perfectly fine. Magnetic media is a lot more sensitive than ICs in >terms of cold soaking. One thing to watch for is to not power up >cold-soaked electronics. The current inrush is likely to blow ICs >(the internal bonded wires between the die and the frame, mostly). >I've thawed machines that were left in unheated buildings over the >winter at McMurdo - ordinary temps around -45F or so. Specifically in >that case (ultra cold, powered off), there are known and published >"max rates of rise" of temps to minimize the risk of permanent damage >from thermal expansion. A good rule of thumb is about 2-3 degrees per >hour. What I did with the cold-soaked computers was to throw them >into a lab freezer at -40F for a few hours, then into a lab >environmental chamber at -30F that I would tweak up about 5 degrees >every couple of hours. When the chamber was up to about +20F, I threw >the equipment in a lab refrigerator. The thaw process took two >workdays, but 100% of what I treated that way survived (no hard disk - >these were floppy-booting diskless PCs that ran from a Novell server). > >If it gets really cold (+0F, say), I'd bring the disks in the house >and leave the CPUs powered off until the garage temps are back around >+32F. ICs can be stored down to -40 typically, but not operated at >those temps (and especially not put through a power-on cycle at those >temps). > >So that's my experience and observations of cold and computers. Take >away from it what you will. > >-ethan *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 9 17:46:14 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:46:14 -0700 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> References: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B2036C6.8050108@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> I've heard tales of old ICT 1301s being operated by people stripped >> down to their pants (underpants for those to the left of the pond) >> when the air conditioning failed because otherwise the payroll run >> would not be done, and of course they themselves would not be paid as >> well as taking flak from all the other workers. > > A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a > minicomputer...what an image! You only have to worry if they got their foil hats on. > -Dave >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 17:46:23 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:46:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tracking down "crackling" noises in monitor In-Reply-To: References: , <97DB4C7C-C605-4F9C-885C-EC1683FBA336@mail.msu.edu>, <4B1F129F.4030801@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20091209154540.U10313@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, dwight elvey wrote: > Get a nice new, clean and dry, piece of tygon > tubing from the hardware store. Still have any of the old airplane headsets that consisted of plastic tubing? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 17:57:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:57:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: References: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> > For really long term storage (1000 years or more) Paper buried in > anaerobic mud works. With a good steganographic encoding algorithm, . . . The Neimann-Marcus cookie hoax has been around longer than floppies. Has there been any further progress in encoding bits in DNA? How much longer before they find some of the previous messages? ("Sorry for the inconvenience") From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 9 18:09:17 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:09:17 -0700 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B203C2D.907@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >> For really long term storage (1000 years or more) Paper buried in >> anaerobic mud works. > > With a good steganographic encoding algorithm, . . . > The Neimann-Marcus cookie hoax has been around longer than floppies. > > > Has there been any further progress in encoding bits in DNA? > How much longer before they find some of the previous messages? > ("Sorry for the inconvenience") Umm ... Decoding is what I want ... "This segment of primevil soup was brought to you by ..." > > Has data storage in a crystal left the realm of si-fi? Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 9 18:20:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:20:03 -0500 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <4B203C2D.907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> <4B203C2D.907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <92803AD7-4605-492F-993E-60DA6DC2A93E@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2009, at 7:09 PM, Ben wrote: > Has data storage in a crystal left the realm of si-fi? Sorta. Holographic memory in particular was demonstrated decades ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 18:21:07 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:21:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <4B203C2D.907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> <4B203C2D.907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20091209161505.S10313@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Ben wrote: > Has data storage in a crystal left the realm of si-fi? 10+ years ago, I saw a demo of 3D data recording. They talked about limiting factors being light wave-lengths, with TeraBytes per CC, and the obligatory "Encyclopedia Britannica smaller than a sugar cube." At that point, they had gotten it up to 27 bits (3 * 3 * 3) in a CC. Never heard anything further. But, I still don't think that ANY information lasts as long, nor transmits as fast, as misinformation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 9 18:31:25 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:31:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <20091209161505.S10313@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Dec 9, 9 04:21:07 pm" Message-ID: <200912100031.nBA0VP90018898@floodgap.com> > But, I still don't think that ANY information lasts as long, nor > transmits as fast, as misinformation. Or whom Tiger Woods has slept with. Perhaps we can encode information in celebrity sexual proclivities. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Are we not men? We are Klingons! -- Klingon-Devo Mix Masters, Inc. --------- From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Dec 9 09:44:03 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:44:03 -0800 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1FC5C3.2060407@garlic.com> Tony Duell ????????: > > Can you please check the 9134A uses a 9914. I am very suprised. > The Xebec OEM controller for the 9134A uses a 9914. It speaks Amigo. IIRC, the later HP board used for the 9133A also uses a 9914. The 9121 also uses a 9914. jd From hachti at hachti.de Wed Dec 9 18:49:05 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:49:05 +0100 Subject: TD8E with more than 2 tape transports Message-ID: <4B204581.7010803@hachti.de> Hi folks, as I already mentioned in alt.sys.pdp8 I'm currently experimenting with a TD8E controller in a pdp8/e and more than one TU56. I installed two TU56. The first one has the G888 modules. The second one will be daisy-chained to the first one. Currently I tried only the control cable. Forgot to bring the data cable with me. It looks as I now can access units 0 and 1 on both TU56. I'm quite confident that the data part will work as well. Currently only one or two of the four transport are working properly (The drives are currently being repaired) but there's enough functionality for a proof of concept. The next step will be three modifications: 1. Make the TD8E respond to all four TD8E addresses - This is done easily and non-destructive by pulling the address select jumpers to ground. 2. Add a latch to the TD8E that will hold the two TD8E address bits and feed them through two former ground lines of the cable. 3. Add a demuliplexer to the paddle board. Use the original select signal and the two additional ones to generate 8 select lines. If I'm right I'll have a TD8E that supports up to 8 tape transports (4 TU56). That would be very nice for the beginning. If anybody has already tried this or there's something I've missed, please let me know! Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:52:03 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:52:03 -0500 Subject: Data preservation on paper In-Reply-To: <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091207180509.O21594@shell.lmi.net> <998889.54311.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20091209155347.X10313@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0912091652g3ee52f06ua3cce1c4435919bf@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 18:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > Has there been any further progress in encoding bits in DNA? > How much longer before they find some of the previous messages? > ("Sorry for the inconvenience") http://dresdencodak.com/2009/07/12/fabulous-prizes/ -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:00:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:00:57 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2036C6.8050108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> <4B2036C6.8050108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B204849.1020005@gmail.com> Ben wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: >>> I've heard tales of old ICT 1301s being operated by people stripped >>> down to their pants (underpants for those to the left of the pond) >>> when the air conditioning failed because otherwise the payroll run >>> would not be done, and of course they themselves would not be paid as >>> well as taking flak from all the other workers. >> >> A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a >> minicomputer...what an image! > > You only have to worry if they got their foil hats on. That's about as close to the bare metal as you can get. From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Dec 9 20:46:59 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:46:59 -0700 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <4B206123.6080003@rogerwilco.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/9/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> No denying that. Off the top of my head Ultrix-32 v2 is probably the >> minimum you'll get running on a MicroVAX II. >> > > I loaded Ultrix T2.0 (pre-release "Test" version?) from TK50 in about > 1986 or 1987 on an early MicroVAX II. Prior to that, I loaded some > flavor of Ultrix v1 from magtape onto an 11/730 w/RB80 disk. That > doesn't say what will or won't work in terms of the boundary cases, > but it's two points on the curve. > > In both cases, I remember that installation took most of a day, and it > was a major wait for the kernel to compile. > Ha! I can believe it! Slightly off-topic here, I just went through a build of a Linux 2.2 kernel on an old 386sx @ 16MHz with 7MB RAM just to see what it would do, if anything. Sure enough, if you wait long enough (60 hours in this case) it will do the job, and I now have a custom kernel for an utterly useless system. Well, it can sort of do email...slowly. ;) Anyway, back to the ULTRIX question, as (if?) I come across what seems to be fairly reliable and definitive information, I'll start my own chart of sorts. -- Jared From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 22:08:27 2009 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:08:27 -0700 Subject: isa usb card In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90912090802k1398efe7uff169626d2536798@mail.gmail.com> References: <200912090419.nB94JWac012564@floodgap.com> <4B1FB913.6080305@gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90912090802k1398efe7uff169626d2536798@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d9403580912092008t67e01532of0fcbbe3ae3682c5@mail.gmail.com> Cypress makes an embedded host: http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=SL811HST-AXC They used to supply it in a 28pin PLCC package, but I think that one has been discontinued... But it is still in production, it is a 3.3V part, but it is 5V compatible. So this chip, in combination with a USB power switch (Maxim and TI sell them - amongst others) allows a single USB 1.1 port on the machine. But nothing is there to prevent you to put multiple chips on the board, or a USB hub... (but 1.1 chips are getting harder and harder to obtain) NXP used to have ISP1362 and ISP1761 - they sold them to ST-Ericsson http://www.ebv.com/en/products/categories/details/product/isp1362.html But I don't think there is really an ISA usb card available... But then designing an isa card is not too hard... Maurice It would be easier to interface an embedded device type of USB host > controller such as the ISP1161 to an ISA or PCMCIA bus, but then you > would still have to find device specific drivers for whatever OS you > were trying to use with the controller. That link for the EB1161ISA > ISP1161 ISA board says "This is a legacy product that has not been > manufactured for an extended period of time." > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 9 23:07:32 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:07:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI-1 drives Message-ID: <200912100507.nBA57WG3013662@floodgap.com> I find myself a little low on small capacity (250MB-1GB) SCSI-1 (not SCSI-2) drives, which is sad, because I'm trying to restore one of my Alpha Micros with one and the ones I have in stock are either spares for the Macs or otherwise allocated. Does anyone have some lying around they don't need and could make some arrangement to part with? If so, please contact me off list. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable. -- Ambrose Bierce ------------------ From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Dec 10 00:04:02 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:04:02 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: from "J. David Bryan" at Dec 9, 9 00:18:59 am, Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 9, 2009 at 19:04, Tony Duell wrote: > Very interesting. I've never seen another HP drive unit (hard, floppy > or tape) that uses the 9914. Early 9134As had third-party OEM controllers, which may explain it. The later units had HP-supplied controllers that use 8291s. > OK. I will [l]ook at the manual on the Australian museum site sometime. Unfortunately, the manual has only block diagrams of the controllers, although it does have schematics of the power supplies. It does have a list of assembly numbers, which is useful, and some adjustment data. Primarily, though, it has a fairly comprehensive description of the Amigo protocol (~60 pages). -- Dave From chrise at pobox.com Wed Dec 9 09:17:19 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:17:19 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091209151719.GC19602@n0jcf.net> >From 1983 to 1989, at ETA Systems, we ran our computers submerged in a bath of liquid nitrogen. :-) Of course they were (mostly) designed for that. The CMOS logic we used ran with max clock cycles of about 14nS at room temp but could easily go down to 5nS when in the LN2. Some interesting things were learned (about physics) when signals crossed the boundary between the LN2 and air... as the memory subsystem was not in the LN2. There were significant impedance changes in the tiny coax lines that ran between the two environments... so we ended up with signal integrity problems at that boundary that nobody had anticipated. Was fun stuff. Another thing to consider if you bring a machine into the warm from a cold environment is condensation. The thermal expansion that Ethan pointed out is important but you will also often see water condensing on surfaces and components as the thing warms up. You definitely want to wait for that moisture to evaporate before you apply power. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:58:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:58:39 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <20091209151719.GC19602@n0jcf.net> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <20091209151719.GC19602@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/09, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >From 1983 to 1989, at ETA Systems, we ran our computers submerged in a > bath of liquid nitrogen. :-) Wow! Neat! (I almost said "Cool" ;-) > Another thing to consider if you bring a machine into the warm from > a cold environment is condensation. The thermal expansion that Ethan > pointed out is important but you will also often see water condensing > on surfaces and components as the thing warms up. You definitely want > to wait for that moisture to evaporate before you apply power. As someone else already observed, condensation isn't a problem in Antarctica. The air is ultra-ultra dry. In the winter at Pole, the outdoor *Relative Humidity* of a chunk of -80F or -100F air can be well over 50%. Bring that very same air inside and warm it to +72F and it plummets to as low as 0.5% RH. We had massive tape drive problems with our bank of LT02 tape drives until we brought them out of the nice shiny new IceCube Laboratory and back into the main station building where we could hook a 4-transducer ultrasonic humidifier to the building's water supply (the ICL has no water except what you carry with you). Once we pumped several gallons per day into the air near the tape drive, the RH in that rack rose to 15% or so and the tapes became much more reliable. Condensation on machines brought from cold to warm in most of North America or Europe (or Brazil, Japan, Oz, NZ, etc.) would be something to watch for and be careful around. We never had those problems at Pole. -ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Dec 10 02:46:25 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:46:25 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <20091209133331.X7166@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: It was in the low 60's here in my bedroom/office. And around 18 deg outside. So I fired up the dual xeon server that had been sitting idle since almost overheating this summer and now it's a comfortable 68-71 in here :) From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 10 10:36:28 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:36:28 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B21238C.8080409@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> As long as the cat's out of the bag, I want to say that the DVD is >> "purist-safe". I used real Amiga hardware to make the DVD, going so far > > Err, surely 'purist' video recordings are made on EIAJ reel-to-reel tapes, > (compact) Umatic cassettes or V2000 tapes. No, those would have analog generational loss. I acquired directly into a 10-bit digital format. Unless you were being facetious... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 11:09:47 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:09:47 -0500 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B21238C.8080409@oldskool.org> References: <4B21238C.8080409@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0912100909s612f82d0o4661f042f8fcc92e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:36, Jim Leonard wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Err, surely 'purist' video recordings are made on EIAJ reel-to-reel tapes, >> (compact) Umatic cassettes or V2000 tapes. > > No, those would have analog generational loss. ?I acquired directly into a > 10-bit digital format. > > Unless you were being facetious... I think he is. He is also wrong. The REAL purist version would be to ship a real A500 and a stack of blank floppies, and a box containing a embedded computer with some sort of mass-storage device. The box comes with an RS-232 port, and emulates a 9600 baud modem (higher speeds for later demos) and an arcane BBS, where the demos are stored with cryptic filenames and inadequate descriptions. You then have to download the demo you wish to see and write it to a disk, a process that will at a minimum take an afternoon. Finally, you can boot the demo disk only to realise that the speed is all wrong and the bottom 56 lines are cut off. For extra realism, the box will block your phone line while the download is simulated and deduct 1990's long distance rates from your savings account. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From hachti at hachti.de Thu Dec 10 11:09:08 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:09:08 +0100 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? Message-ID: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> Hi folks, I took a "new" RK05 disk drive from my heap. After defoaming I powered it up. I soon realized that the position sensor's glass had fallen off. Can be glued back in place easily. But after that I'll most probably have a misaligned RK05. The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load the alignment pack and... -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I could use? Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working drives and formatted disks handy. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 11:29:10 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:29:10 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912100909s612f82d0o4661f042f8fcc92e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B21238C.8080409@oldskool.org> <4affc5e0912100909s612f82d0o4661f042f8fcc92e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912100929p544184cfj25265229f867d7fc@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Joachim Thiemann < joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote: > The REAL purist version would be to ship a real A500 and a stack of > blank floppies, and a box containing a embedded computer with some > sort of mass-storage device. > > The box comes with an RS-232 port, and emulates a 9600 baud modem > (higher speeds for later demos) and an arcane BBS, where the demos are > stored with cryptic filenames and inadequate descriptions. You then > have to download the demo you wish to see and write it to a disk, a > process that will at a minimum take an afternoon. Finally, you can > boot the demo disk only to realise that the speed is all wrong and the > bottom 56 lines are cut off. > > For extra realism, the box will block your phone line while the > download is simulated and deduct 1990's long distance rates from your > savings account. > Don't forget losing the boot sector of a proprietary boot-only game (rendering it useless) because the downloaded demo had a boot sector virus. ...and the time necessary to flip the write protect tab on your entire floppy disk collection. :-) brian From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 10 12:38:36 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:38:36 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A3000D81C6644828BC980FB88009F3F@tegp4> > Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:09:08 +0100 > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4B212B34.6070003 at hachti.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Hi folks, > > I took a "new" RK05 disk drive from my heap. After defoaming I powered it > up. I soon realized that > the position sensor's glass had fallen off. Can be glued back in place > easily. But after that I'll > most probably have a misaligned RK05. > > The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load > the alignment pack and... > -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( > > Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I could > use? > > Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working > drives and formatted disks handy. > > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > ------------------------------ With a good eyeball and a careful hand u can align to data. Since you have what you hope are calibrated drives, I would try taking a formatted pack on a good drive and writing 1F and 2F signals on alternate tracks, 2F on TK00, 1F on TK01, etc. (I don't know what the RK05 code is but 1F and 2F translates to some repetitive pattern). It is not necessary to do so on the whole pack, just circa TK00 and someplace in the middle of the pack. The analog signal will have a broad flat peak region as u move the heads across the track, so u can either eyeball the center of a track or better yet use a micrometer gauge to measure the region and then move it to the center. I'm not sure whether it is better to look at the entire track or two sectors 180 degrees apart. Depending upon the resolution of the recording system, the peak of a 2F should be about 0.7 of the 1F, so it should be obvious as u move across a track. Since you are liable to be several tracks off, the first thing you have to do is find Track Zero, which should be where the 1F/2F repetition starts. Once u get all the heads aligned at Track Zero, do it again at TK01 where you should have a clear track center (1F surrounded by 2F). Then move to the center and look at the signal again. You don't have to move the heads, just apply pressure to the carriage and see if you are more or less centered. The acid test is then when u read the pack :-) Tom From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Dec 10 13:53:43 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:53:43 +0100 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B2151C7.8040305@update.uu.se> Jim Leonard wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> For the curious, you can view most popular Amiga demos with author >>> commentary (covers some of the programming tricks and circumstances >>> under how they were created) on the second MindCandy DVD: >>> http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >> >> Shameless plug! :oD You just forgot to say this great works has >> your signature :D > > Didn't want to be seen as spamming the list :-) even though I think > I've only mentioned it once in two years. Can never be too safe! > > As long as the cat's out of the bag, I want to say that the DVD is > "purist-safe". I used real Amiga hardware to make the DVD, going so > far as to purchase a broadcast scan converter, use the raw RGB output > of all Amigas, calibrating levels along the way. Any noise left over > as part of the process was corrected digitally in 10-bit space. Since > most of the footage was PAL, I converted to NTSC using motion > synthesis avisynth scripts that generated new frames based on > inbetweens (ie. no stupid frame blending or duplication) and cleaned > up conversion errors by hand. I'm really proud of the work and I > know it would stand up to the scrutiny of most people here on the list. I will shamelessly say it is a great DVD. I'll probably need to take another look through it tomorrow. I also have the PC demo DVD, which is my favorite. Will there be another disc? I'm not really pushing for one, but I'm curious. Cheers, Pontus From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 14:19:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:19:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 9, 9 02:57:28 pm Message-ID: > > On Dec 9, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] 'No userer serviceable parts inside'. I can just about understnad > > that on a TV set where many users probably can't service it. But on an > > ICE? An instrument used by microcomputer designers? Be serious! > > Eh...those labels are only put there to placate the manufacturers' > legal departments. But the user manual for this ICE tels you to take it apart to swap board (but there are 'no user-servicable components on the tbe boards'), set the serial port configuration swtiches, and so on. Consideirng it contains a bare-PCB SMPSU, I would habe thought the hazards in working on a board of 5V logic were minimal by comparison. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 15:15:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:15:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: <4B1FC5C3.2060407@garlic.com> from "jd" at Dec 9, 9 07:44:03 am Message-ID: > The Xebec OEM controller for the 9134A uses a 9914. It speaks Amigo. > IIRC, the later HP board used for the 9133A also uses a 9914. The 9121 Interesting... I wonder why HP went away from the 9914 in the drive units (all later drives seem to use either the 8291 or the Medusa) while keeping it in the host computers. > also uses a 9914. Every 9121 I;ve seen has an 8291 in it. I have the 'service manual' for the 3.5" floppy drive units, and while the only schematics it contains are for PSUs it does contain full parts lists for the controller board in the 9121. It states it uses a 8291. The floppy controller board set in the 9133V/XV is electrically much the same as the 9121, BTW (and uses an 8291). I can't comment on the 9133A _floppy_ controller board, I've never seen one, but I think it uses the same firmware ROM as the 9121, so presumably it's another 8291. Of course there may be other versions of these controllers that I've not seen and that aren't mentioned in the manuals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 15:19:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:19:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ZAX ICD-378 Z80 Hardware debugger In-Reply-To: <983052.8648.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Dec 9, 9 12:14:41 pm Message-ID: > > There's no way in hell I'd want to try and fix one of the old ICE's we > used for 8051s at my work. Talk about a pandora's box! Why do you say that? The ZAX ICE that I have seems to consist basically of a Z80 processor, memory to capture actesses to the target system (a sort-of dedicated logic analyser) and not too much else. The Z80is switched beterrn the target system, and a monitor program in ROM in the ICE box which lets you examine/chnge memory, registers, etc. OK, it's 3 or 4 boards of chips, but that's by no means the most complicated thing I've worked on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 15:50:54 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:50:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "J. David Bryan" at Dec 10, 9 01:04:02 am Message-ID: > Unfortunately, the manual has only block diagrams of the controllers, > although it does have schematics of the power supplies. It does have a That does not suprise me. I no longer expect to find schematics in HP computer or peripheral manuals, Of course producing schemaitcs is possible... > list of assembly numbers, which is useful, and some adjustment data. > Primarily, though, it has a fairly comprehensive description of the Amigo > protocol (~60 pages). > Very similar to the companion 3.5" floppy drive 'service manual' which covers the Sony 3.5" drive (in much less detail than the official Sony service manual...), the 9121, 9133A, 9133V/XV, etc. Some PSU schematics, no controller or drive scheamtics, but strangely full component lists for the floppy controller boards. And an appendice giivng the Amigo protocol. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 15:55:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:55:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B21238C.8080409@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 10, 9 10:36:28 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> As long as the cat's out of the bag, I want to say that the DVD is > >> "purist-safe". I used real Amiga hardware to make the DVD, going so far > > > > Err, surely 'purist' video recordings are made on EIAJ reel-to-reel tapes, > > (compact) Umatic cassettes or V2000 tapes. > > No, those would have analog generational loss. I acquired directly into > a 10-bit digital format. > > Unless you were being facetious... I was being semi-facetious. I have VCRs for all the formats I mentioned, I do not own a DVD player (is that any suprise?). But there are pletny of 'classic' audio anf video enthusiasts who have nothing to do with digital recording methods... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 16:01:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:01:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Dec 10, 9 06:09:08 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > I took a "new" RK05 disk drive from my heap. After defoaming I powered it up. I soon realized that > the position sensor's glass had fallen off. Can be glued back in place easily. But after that I'll > most probably have a misaligned RK05. I seem to rememebr if you do anything to that position transducer, you then have to set up the sin and cos waveforms (it's basically doing repeated seeks of various sizes and looking at signals on a 'scope). The procedure is in the manual, and you don't need an alignment pack (just a 'scope and some jumper leads from what I remember) > > The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load the alignment pack and... > -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( > > Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I could use? I have one, but there's no way I am trusting it to the postal 'service' > > Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working drives and formatted disks handy. Hmm... If you have a pack recoded on an aligned drive, you might be able to : 1 )Move the heads (relative to the carriage) as far back as they will go 2 Load the pack 3) With a 'scope connected to the read amplifer testpoints (as if doing the alignment with the pack) and the positioner set to cylinder 0, screw in the appropriate algnment screw. You'll see the singal amplitude rise as the ehad gets over the data track, and then fall off as you go past it. 4) Repeat that a few times (note : the screw will only move the heads towards the spindle, unscrewing the screw again will not move the heads) until you find 2 points, one each side of the track, with the same signal amplitude 5) By counting turns of the screw, set the ehad midway between those 2 points 6) Clamp up that head, repeat for the other head. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:12:54 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:12:54 -0600 Subject: amiga 500 trapdoor memory upgade and cover Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912101412s11297b0cm36517489611b418c@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have a spare amiga 500 512k trapdoor memory upgrade (or similar) that you'd be willing to part with? I'm looking for the cover as well. Thanks. brian From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Dec 10 17:07:18 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:07:18 +0000 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: <4B206123.6080003@rogerwilco.org> References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> <4B206123.6080003@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <20091210230718.GA17017@loomcom.com> * On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 07:46:59PM -0700, J Blaser wrote: > Anyway, back to the ULTRIX question, as (if?) I come across what seems > to be fairly reliable and definitive information, I'll start my own > chart of sorts. Good luck! I'll be interested to see it. I have a real soft spot for ULTRIX, as it was my first Unix. You never forget your first Unix. > -- Jared -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 10 17:18:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:18:15 -0800 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: <4B1FC5C3.2060407@garlic.com> from "jd" at Dec 9, 9 07:44:03 am, Message-ID: <4B211137.30676.14ED9CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Dec 2009 at 21:15, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder why HP went away from the 9914 in the drive units (all later > drives seem to use either the 8291 or the Medusa) while keeping it in > the host computers. I believe that the original TMS9914 was compliant with the IEEE488 1975 standard. The 8291 used the 1980 standard, or so I recall. Tempus fugit. There was a 9914A part that had updated functionality, but it may have come along too late. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Dec 10 17:20:04 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:20:04 -0800 Subject: HW supported by ULTRIX? In-Reply-To: <20091210230718.GA17017@loomcom.com> References: <4B1EDD3E.9070104@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F1D63.1010007@rogerwilco.org> <4B1F23E4.40106@rogerwilco.org> <4B206123.6080003@rogerwilco.org> <20091210230718.GA17017@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > From: Seth Morabito > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 3:07 PM > * On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 07:46:59PM -0700, J Blaser > wrote: >> Anyway, back to the ULTRIX question, as (if?) I come across what seems >> to be fairly reliable and definitive information, I'll start my own >> chart of sorts. > Good luck! I'll be interested to see it. I have a real soft spot for > ULTRIX, as it was my first Unix. You never forget your first Unix. ...though $DEITY knows I've tried. (Pyramid 90x c. 1983) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 19:17:19 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:17:19 -0300 Subject: Amiga Demo's References: Message-ID: <0abf01ca79ff$d1de7940$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I was being semi-facetious. I have VCRs for all the formats I mentioned, > I do not own a DVD player (is that any suprise?). The question is: WHY? :oO From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 10 23:31:04 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:31:04 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B2151C7.8040305@update.uu.se> References: <147974.40004.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4B181AAF.4060001@oldskool.org> <081901ca7461$0eb393e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B183844.1010804@oldskool.org> <4B2151C7.8040305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B21D918.6090708@oldskool.org> Pontus wrote: > Will there be another disc? I'm not really pushing for one, but I'm curious. This is OT for this list, but yes, working on modern content on Blu-ray with an included DVD for those who don't want to upgrade yet. http://www.mindcandydvd.com/3 has details. Should be ready in March. I'd be happy to talk about it more off-list; email me directly if you like. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 10 23:36:43 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:36:43 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B21DA6B.2060308@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I do not own a DVD player (is that any suprise?). It *is* a bit of a surprise, actually, since DVDs offer so much (length and quality of footage, lines of resolution, tons of output options, media space savings, etc.) for so little. It's one of the few no-brainer's out there for consumer technology. I am anticipating a response of "well, the laserdisc/VHS copy of Movie X has much better quality than the DVD release", similar to the "my LPs sound better than my CDs" debate. To both arguments, I say that whatever digital copy you experienced was not produced properly, and should not reflect as a limitation of the format. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 23:45:42 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:45:42 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B21DA6B.2060308@oldskool.org> References: <4B21DA6B.2060308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <9e2403920912102145l18cc5b87qfd78f45889269d6b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I am anticipating a response of "well, the laserdisc/VHS copy of Movie X has > much better quality than the DVD release", similar to the "my LPs sound > better than my CDs" debate. ?To both arguments, I say that whatever digital > copy you experienced was not produced properly, and should not reflect as a > limitation of the format. My first horror movie (at a very tender young age of 6 or 7) was "Squirm" on a CED VideoDisc. I recently saw the film again on DVD, and it just wasn't the same. Not nearly as realistic or terror-inducing. ;) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 04:27:41 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 04:27:41 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ok, tell you what.... you come up here to illinois where its 2 degrees F (around -14 with windchill), and I'll go down there to FL :). I have the heat vent in my room blocked, and i'm at about 82, I have two dell 600sc servers (both p4), an old compaq PII running as router, and a dell P4 desktop machine, along with a home theater audio amp. On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 9, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> We got down to 11F last night, for us that's *COLD*, in fact I'm fairly >> sure it broke a record for the day, and is about the coldest I've ever seen >> around here (I've lived here my whole life except 10 years in the Navy). >> > > You know...upon hearing something like this, I'd ordinarily pipe up with a > chorus of "TIME TO MOVE!" but this time I'm actually pretty jealous. My air > conditioner died last night and the service company hasn't come to fix it > yet. It's 82degF and climbing in the house, and I feel like I'm gonna barf. > It's 79degF outside. > > I've powered off all the nonessentials, but the remaining essentials still > constitutes a rack of gear. > > -Dave > >> >> > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Dec 10 07:39:07 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:39:07 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <20091209151719.GC19602@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20091210133907.GF19602@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (12/10/2009 at 01:58AM -0500), Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/9/09, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > >From 1983 to 1989, at ETA Systems, we ran our computers submerged in a > > bath of liquid nitrogen. :-) > > Wow! Neat! (I almost said "Cool" ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA10 http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-eta.html The CP board(s) sat in a cryostat... think "hot tub"... full of LN2. There were a lot of challenges bringing the machines up or down for service... because you had to warm them up and remove the board from the LN2 or put it back in. When you took it down, you'd let the LN2 boil off but in the mean time the board would frost up like no tomorrow. They had special heater/dryer things to try to mitigate this. Then, when you'd put it back, chips would pop off the board when they hit the LN2 ;-) There were a lot of physics issues to overcome. Most of those we did. Political and management issues were the impossible ones to overcome. It was cool though. Literally and figuratively. Lots of interesting and amazing stories of fun with LN2. > Condensation on machines brought from cold to warm in most of North > America or Europe (or Brazil, Japan, Oz, NZ, etc.) would be something > to watch for and be careful around. We never had those problems at > Pole. Yes... Right. I failed to indicate a context switch from South Pole to our own basements/backyards. Here in MN, where it is -7F this morning, if you bring in a piece of gear from the garage, it's going to fog up in an instant... just like my eyeglasses do when I come in from shoveling snow :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 02:36:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:36:05 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <20091210133907.GF19602@n0jcf.net> References: , , <20091210133907.GF19602@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4B2193F5.7835.34D91A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Dec 2009 at 7:39, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Political and management issues were the impossible ones to overcome. One of the problems was the transfer of the old CDC management style, not to mention the "in the box" thinking. I found it unbelievable. I didn't know how Neil could stand it. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 08:55:27 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:55:27 +0000 Subject: small-cap SCSI-1 drives In-Reply-To: <200912100507.nBA57WG3013662@floodgap.com> References: <200912100507.nBA57WG3013662@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0912110655q778db2b2v4bbcd54aca70b5dd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:07 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I find myself a little low on small capacity (250MB-1GB) SCSI-1 (not SCSI-2) > drives, which is sad, because I'm trying to restore one of my Alpha Micros > with one and the ones I have in stock are either spares for the Macs or > otherwise allocated. Does anyone have some lying around they don't need and > could make some arrangement to part with? If so, please contact me off list. I have a handful of smallish Mac drives from 68030/68040 machines I'm happy to let go. Working condition unknown, tho' I might be able to test them. 40MB/80MB/120MB mostly. Snag is, I, and they, are in London... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 11 09:15:21 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:15:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: small-cap SCSI-1 drives In-Reply-To: <575131af0912110655q778db2b2v4bbcd54aca70b5dd@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Dec 11, 9 02:55:27 pm" Message-ID: <200912111515.nBBFFLAD014274@floodgap.com> > > I find myself a little low on small capacity (250MB-1GB) SCSI-1 (not SCSI-2) > > drives, which is sad, because I'm trying to restore one of my Alpha Micros > > with one and the ones I have in stock are either spares for the Macs or > > otherwise allocated. Does anyone have some lying around they don't need and > > could make some arrangement to part with? If so, please contact me off list. > > I have a handful of smallish Mac drives from 68030/68040 machines I'm > happy to let go. Working condition unknown, tho' I might be able to > test them. 40MB/80MB/120MB mostly. Those are quite useable for this purpose. I'm replying publicly in case anyone has anything closer to the States; elsewise ... Thanks, Liam :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of John Banner --------------------------------------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 10:31:55 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:31:55 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> joe lobocki wrote: > ok, tell you what.... you come up here to illinois where its 2 degrees F > (around -14 with windchill), and I'll go down there to FL :). I have the > heat vent in my room blocked, and i'm at about 82, I have two dell 600sc > servers (both p4), an old compaq PII running as router, and a dell P4 > desktop machine, along with a home theater audio amp. P4s are the worst for heat. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 10:33:57 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:33:57 +0000 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> References: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <575131af0912110833j345f2feeq4564c600021f714@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a minicomputer...what > an image! > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave Depends on the nerd! http://picklesnet.com/burroughs/images/fullsize/b1700/B1700%20advert.jpg ... I feel is an excellent example of the way to cope with the the furnace-like temperatures inside a busy datacentre. :?) (Folk here might generally enjoy this site: http://picklesnet.com/burroughs/descriptions/bltc.htm ) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 11 10:36:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:36:38 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2DDF41B3-89C7-4267-A1D2-2C63B6202D92@neurotica.com> On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> ok, tell you what.... you come up here to illinois where its 2 >> degrees F >> (around -14 with windchill), and I'll go down there to FL :). I >> have the >> heat vent in my room blocked, and i'm at about 82, I have two dell >> 600sc >> servers (both p4), an old compaq PII running as router, and a dell P4 >> desktop machine, along with a home theater audio amp. > > P4s are the worst for heat. P4s only masquerade as microprocessors. They're actually very efficient RF-powered heating devices. You vary their temperature by varying the frequency of the applied RF. I've found that's about the only thing they do well. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 11 10:40:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:40:18 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <575131af0912110833j345f2feeq4564c600021f714@mail.gmail.com> References: <5B0A0B12-565D-4FDA-B0AF-2DEEDB525192@microspot.co.uk> <92B68A76-CD11-4C1E-A3D4-5D252AACC93C@neurotica.com> <575131af0912110833j345f2feeq4564c600021f714@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> A bunch of nerds in their underwear clustered around a >> minicomputer...what >> an image! > > Depends on the nerd! > > http://picklesnet.com/burroughs/images/fullsize/b1700/B1700% > 20advert.jpg > > ... I feel is an excellent example of the way to cope with the the > furnace-like temperatures inside a busy datacentre. :?) Indeed...I'll bet she increased the cooling requirements in that room by quite a bit! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 11 10:52:17 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:52:17 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <2DDF41B3-89C7-4267-A1D2-2C63B6202D92@neurotica.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com>, <2DDF41B3-89C7-4267-A1D2-2C63B6202D92@neurotica.com> Message-ID: That's because they were CISC devices: Centigrade Increment System Controller. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Running Computers Cold On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> ok, tell you what.... you come up here to illinois where its 2 >> degrees F >> (around -14 with windchill), and I'll go down there to FL :). I >> have the >> heat vent in my room blocked, and i'm at about 82, I have two dell >> 600sc >> servers (both p4), an old compaq PII running as router, and a dell P4 >> desktop machine, along with a home theater audio amp. > > P4s are the worst for heat. P4s only masquerade as microprocessors. They're actually very efficient RF-powered heating devices. You vary their temperature by varying the frequency of the applied RF. I've found that's about the only thing they do well. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 11 12:35:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:35:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <0abf01ca79ff$d1de7940$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 10, 9 10:17:19 pm Message-ID: > > > I was being semi-facetious. I have VCRs for all the formats I mentioned, > > I do not own a DVD player (is that any suprise?). > > The question is: WHY? :oO You really have to ask? OK... The 'why' could apply to either of my statements, so I'll explain both of them The first is the easier one. I am interested in many things other than classic computers. I regard the Philipos V2000 VCR as being a wonderful design that came along too late (but that's not a reason for _me_ not to have one). For those who've never seen one (and certainly not seen _inside_ one, the video heads are mounted on peizo-actuators on the head drum. These are driven by a servo circuit that causes the heads to go along the video tracks on the take. The result is noise-free still-frame (In VHS/betamax/Umatic/... the heads follow a different path on the tape when it's stationary than when it's moving (and of course the speed of tape motion matters too), so you get noise on still frames or slow motion. A digital framestore wil lget round it, but I prefer the Philips solution). And the deck is mechanically very simple. Ther are no drive belts, no backtension band, and so on. Now for the bit I suspect you really were asking, why I don't own a DVD player. It comes down to 2 main reasons : 1) You know, you must kniow, my dislike of anything I don't have a proper service manual for (have you tried to get a service manual for a DVD player), that is not well-made (I've been inside some DVD players, once was enough!), that is not properly documented (try getting data sheets on some of the chips!), and so on Darn it, I've read that part of the HDMI spec is only available under NDA (this being to prevent you getting round the encrypition and making perfect digital copies of copyrighted films). Having a device that's undocumented is bad enough, but having an undocumented interface is something I am not going to tolerate. Period! 2) But why would I want a DVD player? What would I use it for? Unlike background music or a radio, a DVD player (or TV) requires you to watch the output. Whcih means you can't be doing anything else at the same time. I've got quite enough books to read, computers to document and restore, projects to build, cmaeras to fix, skills to improve, related thinsg to learn about, etc that I don't have any interest in waching DVDs . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 11 12:43:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:43:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B21DA6B.2060308@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 10, 9 11:36:43 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I do not own a DVD player (is that any suprise?). > > It *is* a bit of a surprise, actually, since DVDs offer so much (length See my other message... > and quality of footage, lines of resolution, tons of output options, > media space savings, etc.) for so little. It's one of the few > no-brainer's out there for consumer technology. AS I said there it comes dopwn to 2 things : (1) DVD players do not meet my criteria for documention, repairability, etc [1] and (2) what would I use it for. FWIW there are many, many, things that most people own and that I don't simply because I have no use for them. If you do, that's fine. [1] Those VCRs I mentioned arevery well documented (the service manuals give internal schemaitcs of the ICs and hybrids, you get waveform data, and so on). -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:47:32 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:47:32 -0600 Subject: source for apple monitor cables Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912111947o3608cdbat75faec7cf256c839@mail.gmail.com> I have a switchbox for apple monitors and ADB wires that I'd like to hook up to several macs and a 2gs. I believe for the ADB part, I can just use s-video cables. But where can I inexpensively get db-15 mac video cables? I can use 4 right now, but I'd like to get 6 or so for future expansion. :-) brian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 11 22:39:05 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:39:05 -0800 Subject: source for apple monitor cables In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912111947o3608cdbat75faec7cf256c839@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380912111947o3608cdbat75faec7cf256c839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B231E69.6050404@bitsavers.org> On 12/11/09 7:47 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > But where can I inexpensively get db-15 mac video cables? there was a box of them over at weird stuff. I'll look tomorrow to see if they're still there. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 11 22:43:16 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:43:16 -0800 Subject: MDS archive Message-ID: <4B231F64.1020705@bitsavers.org> Looking at http://arkiv.netbsd.se/?ml=cctalk&a=2004-12&t=558361 There was some work done years ago at collecting docs and firmware. Looks like www.s100-manuals.com mentioned by Randy is gone. I'm working on adding more MDS material to bitsavers, and didn't want to dump firmware if it's already been done. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 22:48:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:48:07 -0800 Subject: source for apple monitor cables In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912111947o3608cdbat75faec7cf256c839@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380912111947o3608cdbat75faec7cf256c839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B22B007.16431.2BECB38@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2009 at 21:47, Brian Lanning wrote: > I have a switchbox for apple monitors and ADB wires that I'd like to > hook up to several macs and a 2gs. I believe for the ADB part, I can > just use s-video cables. But where can I inexpensively get db-15 mac > video cables? I can use 4 right now, but I'd like to get 6 or so for > future expansion. :-) Strictly speaking, it's a DA15 cable, but I get your drift. :) They're used for joystick switches too, so at least they're a commodity item. This outfit has 10' MM ones for $5 each: http://www.pccables.com/70004.htm But you can probably do better with a little looking around. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 22:59:42 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:59:42 -0600 Subject: source for apple monitor cables In-Reply-To: <4B22B007.16431.2BECB38@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c380912111947o3608cdbat75faec7cf256c839@mail.gmail.com> <4B22B007.16431.2BECB38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912112059v3e844dbch9f3b378115efab5e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Strictly speaking, it's a DA15 cable, but I get your drift. :) > > They're used for joystick switches too, so at least they're a > commodity item. This outfit has 10' MM ones for $5 each: > > http://www.pccables.com/70004.htm > > But you can probably do better with a little looking around. > > To be honest, I was hoping someone had a huge box of them lying around after they threw out a bunch of monitors. :-) brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 12 14:52:27 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:52:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: source for apple monitor cables In-Reply-To: <4B22B007.16431.2BECB38@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 11, 9 08:48:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 11 Dec 2009 at 21:47, Brian Lanning wrote: > > > I have a switchbox for apple monitors and ADB wires that I'd like to > > hook up to several macs and a 2gs. I believe for the ADB part, I can > > just use s-video cables. But where can I inexpensively get db-15 mac > > video cables? I can use 4 right now, but I'd like to get 6 or so for > > future expansion. :-) > > Strictly speaking, it's a DA15 cable, but I get your drift. :) You know, I really must make up some DB9 and DB15 connectors for things like that :-) > > They're used for joystick switches too, so at least they're a > commodity item. This outfit has 10' MM ones for $5 each: Are they? I would hope a video cable used the correct (75 Ohm?) coax cables for the (analogue) RGB signals. A joystick cable won't. -tony From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Dec 12 15:30:58 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 13:30:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need datasheet for AMD 79C830 SUPERNET 2 chip ($$$) Message-ID: Hi everyone. I'm looking for a datasheet for the AMD 79C830 "SUPERNET 2" chip. The only caveat is that it must be dated prior to July 1991. This will likely be a preliminary datasheet that was disseminated in limited volume. If you've got it, please contact me directly. I'll pay $100 for an actual lead but it must be in paper form. Digital copies might work, though it's doubtful whether one would exist. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 12 16:27:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:27:49 -0800 Subject: source for apple monitor cables In-Reply-To: References: <4B22B007.16431.2BECB38@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 11, 9 08:48:07 pm, Message-ID: <4B23A865.17154.108DF4F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2009 at 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > Are they? I would hope a video cable used the correct (75 Ohm?) coax > cables for the (analogue) RGB signals. A joystick cable won't. Probably not, but for vintage Apple, they'll probably do the trick. Many cheaper "VGA" cables don't have much more than these. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 12 21:35:36 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:35:36 -0600 Subject: V20 processor In-Reply-To: <20091205112336.A12597@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B1A29FB.3243.2E7B6A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091205103148.T12597@shell.lmi.net> <4B1A4185.13464.8A6F16@cclist.sydex.com> <20091205112336.A12597@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B246108.7060302@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, it didn't behave the way the 8088 behaved if you had an > interrupt occur during execution of an instruction with multiple > "prefixes", such as a segment override along with a REP with the "string" > instructions. ...which is part of my CPU detection code, not coincidentally. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 13 02:50:32 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:50:32 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4404 servcie manuals needed Message-ID: <121320090850.5777.4B24AAD8000475350000169122243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I would like to get a Tek 4404 computer going but lack any service manuals. The system turns on but has no curser on the screen. Has good power from the Power supply and heater is on in the CRT. Has a row of LEDs on the mother board. Does anyone know how to read these. - Thanks, Jerry From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 04:15:02 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 04:15:02 -0600 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > joe lobocki wrote: > >> ok, tell you what.... you come up here to illinois where its 2 degrees F >> (around -14 with windchill), and I'll go down there to FL :). I have the >> heat vent in my room blocked, and i'm at about 82, I have two dell 600sc >> servers (both p4), an old compaq PII running as router, and a dell P4 >> desktop machine, along with a home theater audio amp. >> > > P4s are the worst for heat. > > Peace... Sridhar > unless you live in a really cold area, so half of the year they are a burden, the other half helps me cut back on gas heat From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 13:12:26 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:12:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RT-PC available Message-ID: All, In my ongoing effort at clearing space, I must part with my beloved IBM RT-PC. This is a desktop form-factor with the "enhanced advanced CPU" (don't you love 80s marketing-speak) running at a stunning 16Mhz. with 8MB of memory on-board. I have upgraded it with a 1GB ATA drive and an Adaptec SCSI adapter and it's currently loaded with AOS / BSD 4.4. Has ethernet adapter and was in-use on my own network. Other items: - A bookshelf or two of documentation - One or two of every expansion card ever made for the unit - Extra mouse and keyboard (non-standard connectors) - Multi-Port serial card for POS systems (?) - Complete software distribution of AIX 2.x - Complete AOS / BSD 4.3 - The semi-mythical BSD 4.4 port w/ sources - A couple of ESDI drives (original hard disk) - The "academic" OS high-resolution grey-scale monitor w/ video adapter. This supports X10 R-something under AOS. And probably many, many other goodies that slipped my mind. I'm open to negotiation on price, but the kicker is: You Gotta Come And Get It. There's enough stuff to fill the back of a small van and I'm not even going to address shipment. I'm located in Burlington, VT. Please, someone give this a nice home? Steve -- From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Dec 13 05:45:21 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:45:21 -0000 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC Message-ID: Hi Thanks to a list member with a good memory I have managed to trace and get running a copy of Fido BBS on my DEC Rainbow. It's just about as I had it back in 1983 as Fido_UK1. I can run it on a modem that would have been current in'83. I now want to make it available via telnet. I do have a windows based application that will convert a telnet connection to an emulated modem connection. However what would be really nice is to hook up a DECServer 200/mc to convert an incoming Telnet call to a port emulating a modem. That means the Rainbow would think it was connected to a modem. Connection should be indicated by asserting DCD. Is it possible? If so how? Regards Rod Smallwood From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 13 07:50:05 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:50:05 -0000 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0887CC8D43734FCF9A95DB1F1721C494@ANTONIOPC> > It's just about as I had it back in 1983 as Fido_UK1. I can > run it on a modem that would have been current in'83. > > I now want to make it available via telnet. I do have a > windows based application that will convert a telnet > connection to an emulated modem connection. > > However what would be really nice is to hook up a DECServer > 200/mc to convert an incoming Telnet call to a port emulating > a modem. > > That means the Rainbow would think it was connected to a > modem. Connection should be indicated by asserting DCD. The DECserver 200, to the best of my recollection, only supports LAT on the network side. You could, perhaps, terminate the telnet session on a host and feed that into a permanent LAT port. You'd have to write a noddy serving prgram to achieve that, I think. Antonio From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Dec 13 09:47:26 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:47:26 -0500 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B250C8E.8000109@hawkmountain.net> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Thanks to a list member with a good memory I have managed to trace and > get running a copy of Fido BBS on my DEC Rainbow. > > It's just about as I had it back in 1983 as Fido_UK1. I can run it on a > modem that would have been current in'83. > > I now want to make it available via telnet. I do have a windows based > application that will convert a telnet connection to an emulated modem > connection. > > However what would be really nice is to hook up a DECServer 200/mc to > convert an incoming Telnet call to a port emulating a modem. > > That means the Rainbow would think it was connected to a modem. Connection > should be indicated by asserting DCD. > > > > Is it possible? If so how? > I don't know anything about the DECServer .... however you might be able to do this with Livingston (later Lucent) Portmaster 2. The only part I don't know about is DCD. I have succesfully used these in the past to provide serial console access via telnet sessions. There was an earlier portmaster (portmaster 11 ???? (my memory is lacking here)) that booted from a floppy. I've got one buried around here.... and I tinkered with it a bit... it lacks some features of the PM2... but as I recall you could do the same thing with it.... the Portmaster 2 would be easier to find however. -- Curt > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 13 11:02:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 12:02:05 -0500 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2009, at 6:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Thanks to a list member with a good memory I have managed to > trace and > get running a copy of Fido BBS on my DEC Rainbow. > > It's just about as I had it back in 1983 as Fido_UK1. I can run it > on a > modem that would have been current in'83. > > I now want to make it available via telnet. I do have a windows based > application that will convert a telnet connection to an emulated modem > connection. > > However what would be really nice is to hook up a DECServer 200/mc to > convert an incoming Telnet call to a port emulating a modem. > > That means the Rainbow would think it was connected to a modem. > Connection > should be indicated by asserting DCD. > > > > Is it possible? If so how? Not really, no...the DECserver-200 family doesn't speak TCP/IP, only LAT. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Sun Dec 13 12:04:11 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:04:11 +0100 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B252C9B.1010100@hachti.de> Hi Tony, thanks for the reply. > >> The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load the alignment pack and... >> -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( >> >> Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I could use? > > I have one, but there's no way I am trusting it to the postal 'service' Hm. I can understand that... >> Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working drives and formatted disks handy. > 3) With a 'scope connected to the read amplifer testpoints (as if doing > the alignment with the pack) and the positioner set to cylinder 0, screw > in the appropriate algnment screw. You'll see the singal amplitude rise > as the ehad gets over the data track, and then fall off as you go past it. How does the positioner find track 0?!? Does it use the end of range microswitch and then count? This is a bit unclear to me. BTW the drive has failed further: I powered it up, could manually load the heads. But they are somewhat unstable. Could not go online. The positioner force while retracting is very low. And everything is moving a bit. Last but not least, a PSU regulator failed with great optical effects. I'll put aside this unit for now. And have a look at the next one. But this is still in the queue. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 13 12:26:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:26:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <4B252C9B.1010100@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Dec 13, 9 07:04:11 pm Message-ID: > How does the positioner find track 0?!? It's all done with that optical transduce (the glass scale, the lamp, and a couple (or is it 3) photodetectors under the carriage). IIRC it moves the heads towards the spindle, then as soon as it gets a valid signal from that transducer, it locks to it and calls it cylinder 0. Other cylinders are then found by counting pulses from that transducer. > Does it use the end of range microswitch and then count? This is a bit > unclear to me. AFAIK the microswitch is only used to disconnect the emergency-retract battery when the heads are fully retracted. It's not part of the positioner system, it wouldn't be repeatable enough. > > BTW the drive has failed further: I powered it up, could manually load > the heads. But they are > somewhat unstable. Could not go online. The positioner force while > retracting is very low. And Did the drive work properly after re-fitting that glass scale? Misalignment (or mis-setup) of this will cause the head positioner to malfunction. I think you can disable the servo with the toggle switch on the amplifier PCB (on top of the PSU), move the carriage _caerfully_ by hand (with a disk loaded and spinning, of course), and look at the waveforms. This could be a problem in just about any part of the servo analogue electronics. The good news is that it's a pretty simple positioner servo (no feedback form the disk itself, for example), and there shouldn't be any prolems getting components. > everything is moving a bit. Last but not least, a PSU regulator failed > with great optical effects. Which one? I am wondering if you have failed power transsitors on the servo amplifier board that are overloading one of the power rails. Ma be worth checking. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 13 12:45:22 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:45:22 -0800 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: <4B250C8E.8000109@hawkmountain.net> References: <4B250C8E.8000109@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4B253642.1020205@bitsavers.org> On 12/13/09 7:47 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: but as I recall you > could do the same > thing with it.... the Portmaster 2 would be easier to find however. > Livingston Portmaster or Encore Annex/Microannex were commonly used TCP/IP milking machines. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 13 14:46:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:46:56 -0500 Subject: rare stuff available Message-ID: That's "really rare", not "eBay rare". My employer was supposed to get its funding last week and give me a huge cash bonus for putting up with month-to-month "survival wages" for the past year, but instead, they've hit a legal snag and now they can't make payroll. I've gone from merrily making up shopping lists to abject financial terror over the course of a day. With my emergency cash buffer long since gone (see "survival wages" above), I am in serious short-term trouble. So it is with a heavy heart that I must consider parting with a few things that are dear and precious to me. Two things in particular are items that might bring in enough money to help my immediate situation. First, I have a set of original DEC OS/8 TU56 distribution tapes. I emphasize, these are *original*, nearly pristine, DEC-labeled distribution tapes. I've had these for nearly thirty years. 'Nuff said. Second, I have an Atomichron. Yes, a real one, a National Company model NC-1001. One of the very few left in existence. If you don't know what this is, you probably won't be interested, but in a nutshell it's the first commercially-produced atomic resonance frequency standard ("atomic clock"), built in 1956. As far as I've found in my research there are three of these left of the approximately fifty that were built between 1956 and 1960. I've written a short research paper describing this instrument and its history, including photos; I can provide copies of it upon request. I'm open to negotiation on pricing, but neither will go cheaply. If there's someone here who is interested in either of these fairly rare items, please contact me ASAP. I'm planning to put one or both of them on eBay within the next day or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 13 14:51:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: also, Re: rare stuff available Message-ID: <886A06E0-E1E3-4B84-A75B-8CAD7BD7E8AB@neurotica.com> I forgot to mention...if anyone knows of any individuals or other mailing lists that might be interested in these things, please feel free to forward my message along. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 13 15:29:40 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:29:40 -0800 Subject: rare stuff available References: Message-ID: <4B255CC3.4F9B67EA@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Second, I have an Atomichron. Yes, a real one, a National Company > model NC-1001. One of the very few left in existence. If you don't > know what this is, you probably won't be interested, but in a > nutshell it's the first commercially-produced atomic resonance > frequency standard ("atomic clock"), built in 1956. As far as I've > found in my research there are three of these left of the > approximately fifty that were built between 1956 and 1960. I've > written a short research paper describing this instrument and its > history, including photos; I can provide copies of it upon request. Not that I'm in a position to purchase, but it sounds pretty neat, Dave. Found this online, for some history of chronology and the development of the Atomichron: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/main/history.asp?file=atomichron From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 13 15:45:51 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:45:51 -0500 Subject: rare stuff available In-Reply-To: <4B255CC3.4F9B67EA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B255CC3.4F9B67EA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <40979481-2978-4936-B1E8-5EF4A516AC51@neurotica.com> On Dec 13, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Second, I have an Atomichron. Yes, a real one, a National Company >> model NC-1001. One of the very few left in existence. If you don't >> know what this is, you probably won't be interested, but in a >> nutshell it's the first commercially-produced atomic resonance >> frequency standard ("atomic clock"), built in 1956. As far as I've >> found in my research there are three of these left of the >> approximately fifty that were built between 1956 and 1960. I've >> written a short research paper describing this instrument and its >> history, including photos; I can provide copies of it upon request. > > Not that I'm in a position to purchase, but it sounds pretty neat, > Dave. > > Found this online, for some history of chronology and the > development of the Atomichron: > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/main/history.asp?file=atomichron Yes, the paper by Paul Forman. He's with the Smithsonian. He's a very personable old fellow; I've spent many an hour on the phone with him comparing notes. He's their resident Atomichron expert (amongst many other things)...yes, there's an Atomichron just like this one in the Smithsonian. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 13 16:54:25 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:54:25 -0800 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> joe lobocki wrote: > > unless you live in a really cold area, so half of the year they are a > burden, the other half helps me cut back on gas heat I figure the depths of winter is a good time to fire up my larger tube equipment to cycle it for a while or work on it: get the dual benefit from the energy use. It's cosy working on it in the winter, in the summer one can end up dripping all over it. -- Speaking of digital tube equipment, while I'm not ready to get rid of this stuff myself just yet, I'd like to ask whether others (the nearer the better) might have any interest in tube-based digital frequency counters and such; e.g: http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP521C/index.html http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524B/index.html http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524C/index.html No, they're not computers (unless one really wants to stretch the definition), they are boat anchors and of limited to no practical use, but they are manageable (barely) examples of vacuum-tube-based digital equipment. A few months ago I was offered another 524B, I declined as it would have been my 3rd 524, 2 is (more than) enough for me. I believe the thing has since been scrapped or dismantled. Should such a situation arise again I'd like to have an idea whether I should make more of an effort to find another home for such. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 13 17:21:50 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:21:50 -0500 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2009, at 5:54 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I figure the depths of winter is a good time to fire up my larger tube > equipment to cycle it for a while or work on it: get the dual > benefit from the > energy use. It's cosy working on it in the winter, in the summer > one can end up > dripping all over it. > > -- > > Speaking of digital tube equipment, while I'm not ready to get rid > of this > stuff myself just yet, I'd like to ask whether others (the nearer > the better) > might have any interest in tube-based digital frequency counters > and such; e.g: > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP521C/index.html > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524B/index.html > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524C/index.html > > No, they're not computers (unless one really wants to stretch the > definition), > they are boat anchors and of limited to no practical use, but they are > manageable (barely) examples of vacuum-tube-based digital equipment. > > A few months ago I was offered another 524B, I declined as it would > have been > my 3rd 524, 2 is (more than) enough for me. I believe the thing has > since been > scrapped or dismantled. Should such a situation arise again I'd > like to have an > idea whether I should make more of an effort to find another home > for such. Absolutely, positively beautiful! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 13 17:41:01 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:41:01 +0000 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: <4B253642.1020205@bitsavers.org> References: <4B250C8E.8000109@hawkmountain.net> <4B253642.1020205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B257B8D.3030702@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/12/2009 18:45, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/13/09 7:47 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > but as I recall you >> could do the same >> thing with it.... the Portmaster 2 would be easier to find however. > Livingston Portmaster or Encore Annex/Microannex were commonly used > TCP/IP milking machines. I still use an Annex for consoles on a few of my machines (like some of the PDP-11s). They were made by Xylogics, later bought by Bay Networks => Nortel and are sometimes to be found rebadged by Sun. They're very versatile, and you can use the ports in all sorts of ways. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hachti at hachti.de Sun Dec 13 18:07:36 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 01:07:36 +0100 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2581C8.9020902@hachti.de> Hi Tony, >> How does the positioner find track 0?!? > > It's all done with that optical transduce (the glass scale, the lamp, and > a couple (or is it 3) photodetectors under the carriage). IIRC it moves > the heads towards the spindle, then as soon as it gets a valid signal > from that transducer, it locks to it and calls it cylinder 0. >> Does it use the end of range microswitch and then count? This is a bit >> unclear to me. > > AFAIK the microswitch is only used to disconnect the emergency-retract > battery when the heads are fully retracted. It's not part of the > positioner system, it wouldn't be repeatable enough. Six sensors....! As far as I understand the documentation, the "outer limit" switch *IS* crucial...! Huh... :-( > Did the drive work properly after re-fitting that glass scale? No *g* But I don't know if this was the problem. Better: if this was ONE of the problemS. But I assume that I'll run in trouble with the sensors.. >> everything is moving a bit. Last but not least, a PSU regulator failed >> with great optical effects. > > Which one? I am wondering if you have failed power transsitors on the > servo amplifier board that are overloading one of the power rails. Ma be > worth checking. 20V I *think*. I did not have the impression of overload. This happened after about one hour of operation. After many years... Gave some nice sparks. -- Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 18:30:31 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:30:31 +0000 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > ?http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP521C/index.html > ?http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524B/index.html > ?http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524C/index.html Jolly interesting & good for you for not only keeping it alive but also putting up a lovely simple clear smart-looking webpage to teach people about it. If I might be permitted one small cavil... the possessive "its" takes no apostrophe, any more than its close kin-words "his", "hers", "ours" or "theirs". Every one makes some of us flinch in discomfort. It's the only thing wrong with an otherwise-immaculate display, and as such, I thought I'd draw it to your attention... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Dec 13 12:26:21 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:26:21 +0000 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2531CD.8010709@axeside.co.uk> Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > In my ongoing effort at clearing space, I must part with my beloved IBM > RT-PC. This is a desktop form-factor with the "enhanced advanced CPU" > (don't you love 80s marketing-speak) running at a stunning 16Mhz. with > 8MB of memory on-board. Wow! I was working at IBM when the RT-PC was launched (1986?) I actually have (acquired much later) a 6150 - the desk-side RT-PC. I like the system, and I wish I could spare more time to work on it (well, that's true of most of my systems, I suppose). > I have upgraded it with a 1GB ATA drive and an Adaptec SCSI adapter and > it's currently loaded with AOS / BSD 4.4. Has ethernet adapter and was > in-use on my own network. Wow again! > Other items: > > - A bookshelf or two of documentation On those weird square-page manuals in ring binders? > - One or two of every expansion card ever made for the unit > - Extra mouse and keyboard (non-standard connectors) Since I lack a mouse for mine, can I put in a plea that whoever does adopt this system consider selling / trading me the mouse? 10 years ago IBM told me the 6150 mouse was no longer available, but there was a replacement, for which quoted me 150 pounds. They wouldn't tell me the part number of the replacement, but I am pretty sure it was just a Logitech PC mouse and an adaptor to plug it into the 6150. I tried making my own connector (from a Compaq laptop power supply connector, iirc), but had little success. [snip] > I'm located in Burlington, VT. Please, someone give this a nice home? And that really is the kicker. Wrong side of the Atlantic, as usual. :-( :-( :-( I haven't a hope of picking this up, even if I had space for it, but I really think someone should save it! Philip (strongly enough moved to emerge briefly from lurkdom). From mike_coholich at yahoo.com Sun Dec 13 16:40:57 2009 From: mike_coholich at yahoo.com (Mike Coholich) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:40:57 -0500 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner Message-ID: <00fe01ca7c45$58d8eec0$0a8acc40$@com> I just found your email on the WEB. Do you still have the Honeywell 716? Thanks, Mike Mike Coholich 225 Cottonwood LN Wexford, PA 15090 Cell: (412) 596-2988 mike_coholich at yahoo.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 20:03:14 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:03:14 -0500 Subject: Univac tape drive Message-ID: A few years ago, some guy on Ebay had a Univac Uniservo IV tape drive (a typical fridge sized monster) on Ebay. I do not know if it ever sold - he wanted a lot of money. Does anyone know whatever happened to it? -- Will From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Dec 14 01:01:12 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:01:12 +0100 Subject: rare stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B25E2B8.5040003@bluewin.ch> Dave McGuire wrote: > > First, I have a set of original DEC OS/8 TU56 distribution tapes. I > emphasize, these are *original*, nearly pristine, DEC-labeled > distribution tapes. I've had these for nearly thirty years. 'Nuff said. I sincerly hope that it brings you more than the 60-70 USD I got for the idientical item , on Ebay. My package was 3 distribution tapes, 1 working copy tape and the OS8 paperback manual . Jos Dreesen From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 13 19:40:59 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:40:59 -0800 Subject: way off topic (sort of) Antarctic Dome disassembled Message-ID: <4B2597AB.3060907@jwsss.com> I know we have had a list member emailing from here, this is an article about the final disassembly of the dome. http://www.onorbit.com/node/1797 Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 20:51:59 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:51:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B2531CD.8010709@axeside.co.uk> References: <4B2531CD.8010709@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Dec 2009, Philip Belben wrote: >> In my ongoing effort at clearing space, I must part with my beloved IBM >> RT-PC. This is a desktop form-factor with the "enhanced advanced CPU" >> (don't you love 80s marketing-speak) running at a stunning 16Mhz. with 8MB >> of memory on-board. > > Wow! I was working at IBM when the RT-PC was launched (1986?) I actually > have (acquired much later) a 6150 - the desk-side RT-PC. I like the system, > and I wish I could spare more time to work on it (well, that's true of most > of my systems, I suppose). The desk-side box was a monster, wasn't it? I had one of those about ten years ago, but ended up giving it away due to lack of space (a chronic problem). >> - A bookshelf or two of documentation > > On those weird square-page manuals in ring binders? The same! Many boxes of them, I'm afraid. System, AIX, programming - even the assembler reference :-). Steve -- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 14 02:17:25 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:17:25 +0100 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091214091725.92d09adc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:45:21 -0000 "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > However what would be really nice is to hook up a DECServer 200/mc to > convert an incoming Telnet call to a port emulating a modem. AFAIK and IIRC the DECserver 200 does not support this feature. (Isn't the '200 LAT only?) The later DECserver 700 should be able to do this. I use a "no name" terminal server for remote console access of developement machines. Telnet to a speciffic TCP port opens a serial connection to the console of the machine. DTR / DSR of the terminal server changes level when a connection is active. I use this to switch on the developement machine via a solid state relais. So it should not be impossible to achieve what you need. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Dec 14 05:38:48 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:38:48 -0500 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC Message-ID: <8CC4AC9229654A3-2910-4151@webmail-d081.sysops.aol.com> As mentioned earlier, the DECServer 200/MC won't work for your application, as it only speaks LAT. Additionally, it needs to boot from a host every time it starts. I've experimented with a few different terminal servers, and there are several out there that should be adequate to the task. The Lantronix ETS series is very compact, and easy to set up. It speaks LAT as well as TCP/IP. The drawback is that when you telnet IN to the Lantronix, it displays a rather annoying welcome message that I don't believe you can disable. (At least that was my experience.) The Xyplex 1600 series of terminal servers seemed to work the best, but configuration can be a PITA, if you're not used to them. I would recommend the 1620 with flash card, and 4MB of RAM, if you go that route. T From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 14 08:15:30 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:15:30 +0000 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? Message-ID: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. While I can use Imagemagick to convert the images to B&W, that defeats the point: there are photos on the scanned pages, and I'd rather like to keep them as photos, not black splodges. Also, has anyone come up with a "best practice guide" for manual scanning? At the moment I'm scanning like this: B&W text only: 600dpi, black and white, threshold=50%. Text + photos: 600dpi, greyscale, then despeckle and scale down to 300dpi. Obviously if there are better ways (in terms of quality and/or speed) I'd like to know before I scan a ton of testgear manuals... Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it and then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the image alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most Adobe software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Dec 14 08:30:03 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:30:03 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Honeywell-Bull HD120 diskdrive. Message-ID: <4B264BEB.4060107@bluewin.ch> i suppose it had to happen sometime... The cartride harddisk drive in my Lilith has died, it is unable to find tracks anymore. Headmovement is of course controlled by the only ASIC, thus pure unobtainium, that is inside the machine. So : anyone has a spare unit ? ( yes i know, winning the lottary is more likely) Failing that i will be finally forced to write new microcode and kludge in an IDE disk.... Jos Dreesen From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 14 08:29:54 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:29:54 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200912141439.nBEEdqUD022357@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 08:15 AM 12/14/2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it and then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the image alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most Adobe software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." A few months ago I purchased a Fujitsu ScanSnap S510. Wonderful device! I've used it to PDF all sorts of old docs I really didn't need to keep on paper. It included the full Acrobat and a program to help organize collections of PDFs. It can post-process OCR, too. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 08:58:21 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:58:21 -0500 Subject: way off topic (sort of) Antarctic Dome disassembled In-Reply-To: <4B2597AB.3060907@jwsss.com> References: <4B2597AB.3060907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/09, jim s wrote: > I know we have had a list member emailing from here... Yeah. That'd be me. I'm in the States this season. > this is an article about the final disassembly of the dome. > > http://www.onorbit.com/node/1797 Quite sad. I've been keeping abreast of the deconstruction efforts. To keep this even vaguely on topic, on this list a year ago, I posted information about an old article in the Antarctic Journal that announced the setup of an HP1000 system that was installed in the science building under the dome - quite probably the first computer system (CPU, storage, ttys/terminals) at the Pole. In terms of the modern history of the dome, I was the last person to live there. Everyone else moved out earlier in the winter of 2006; I was happy to be down there until the week they turned off the heat and light to start demolishing the building. Not so cozy after that, so I moved. ;-) -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 14 09:07:01 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:07:01 -0800 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> On 12/14/09 6:15 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. Look at the source. It supports jpgs, and you can mix 1bpp and jpg in a document. There is also a version around that handles .bmp From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 09:18:21 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B26573D.5000204@gmail.com> joe lobocki wrote: > unless you live in a really cold area, so half of the year they are a > burden, the other half helps me cut back on gas heat Inefficiency is never a good idea. You could always run twice as many computers that each use half the power and end up with the same amount of heat. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 09:32:43 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:32:43 -0500 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: <4B253642.1020205@bitsavers.org> References: <4B250C8E.8000109@hawkmountain.net> <4B253642.1020205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B265A9B.7090909@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/13/09 7:47 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > but as I recall you >> could do the same >> thing with it.... the Portmaster 2 would be easier to find however. >> > > Livingston Portmaster or Encore Annex/Microannex were commonly used > TCP/IP milking machines. Even the later DECservers can do it. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 09:33:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:33:00 -0500 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) Message-ID: On 12/13/09, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/12/2009 18:45, Al Kossow wrote: >> Livingston Portmaster or Encore Annex/Microannex were commonly used >> TCP/IP milking machines. > > I still use an Annex for consoles on a few of my machines (like some of > the PDP-11s). They were made by Xylogics, later bought by Bay Networks > => Nortel and are sometimes to be found rebadged by Sun. They're very > versatile, and you can use the ports in all sorts of ways. I am familiar with Annex terminal servers, but only from a user standpoint. I've never owned one nor set one up (in the day these were popular, we had large amounts of real ports on our boxes (16-56 each) and no TCP/IP). Is there an annex model with 8-16 ports I should look for? I really don't need to keep something with 48 ports powered up. Thanks, -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 09:46:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:46:14 -0500 Subject: rare stuff available In-Reply-To: <4B25E2B8.5040003@bluewin.ch> References: <4B25E2B8.5040003@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5DAE03FE-29BC-4877-8C7D-5FA8F6044D9E@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> First, I have a set of original DEC OS/8 TU56 distribution >> tapes. I emphasize, these are *original*, nearly pristine, DEC- >> labeled distribution tapes. I've had these for nearly thirty >> years. 'Nuff said. > > I sincerly hope that it brings you more than the 60-70 USD I got > for the idientical item , on Ebay. > My package was 3 distribution tapes, 1 working copy tape and the > OS8 paperback manual . Nice package. But yes, my first offer was about 6X that. I may yet eat this week. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 14 09:52:58 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:52:58 -0700 Subject: rare stuff available In-Reply-To: <5DAE03FE-29BC-4877-8C7D-5FA8F6044D9E@neurotica.com> References: <4B25E2B8.5040003@bluewin.ch> <5DAE03FE-29BC-4877-8C7D-5FA8F6044D9E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B265F5A.2090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >>> First, I have a set of original DEC OS/8 TU56 distribution tapes. I >>> emphasize, these are *original*, nearly pristine, DEC-labeled >>> distribution tapes. I've had these for nearly thirty years. 'Nuff said. >> >> I sincerly hope that it brings you more than the 60-70 USD I got for >> the idientical item , on Ebay. >> My package was 3 distribution tapes, 1 working copy tape and the OS8 >> paperback manual . > > Nice package. But yes, my first offer was about 6X that. I may yet eat > this week. Have you just binaries, or source with that? > -Dave >> > > From wulfcub at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 09:56:14 2009 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:56:14 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen Eric > Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. While I I've used tiff2pdf for many years with great success. It offers various compression options, and the output has always been excellent. Unfortunately, I can't help you on the OCR side. --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 09:57:09 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:57:09 -0500 Subject: rare stuff available In-Reply-To: <4B265F5A.2090900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B25E2B8.5040003@bluewin.ch> <5DAE03FE-29BC-4877-8C7D-5FA8F6044D9E@neurotica.com> <4B265F5A.2090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2188CEF9-B7B0-4DA8-8515-7A9C4958C39D@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Ben wrote: >>>> First, I have a set of original DEC OS/8 TU56 distribution tapes. I >>>> emphasize, these are *original*, nearly pristine, DEC-labeled >>>> distribution tapes. I've had these for nearly thirty years. >>>> 'Nuff said. >>> >>> I sincerly hope that it brings you more than the 60-70 USD I got for >>> the idientical item , on Ebay. >>> My package was 3 distribution tapes, 1 working copy tape and the OS8 >>> paperback manual . >> >> Nice package. But yes, my first offer was about 6X that. I may yet >> eat >> this week. > > Have you just binaries, or source with that? I'm pretty sure I still have the sources on paper tape, but this is a binary distribution if memory serves. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 14 10:22:59 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:22:59 +0000 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B266663.6090903@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/12/2009 15:33, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/13/09, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I still use an Annex for consoles on a few of my machines (like some of >> the PDP-11s). They were made by Xylogics, later bought by Bay Networks >> => Nortel and are sometimes to be found rebadged by Sun. They're very >> versatile, and you can use the ports in all sorts of ways. > > I am familiar with Annex terminal servers, but only from a user > standpoint. I've never owned one nor set one up (in the day these > were popular, we had large amounts of real ports on our boxes (16-56 > each) and no TCP/IP). Is there an annex model with 8-16 ports I > should look for? I really don't need to keep something with 48 ports > powered up. Look for a microAnnex. Mine has 16 ports, and a 1900-line config file :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 14 10:36:58 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:36:58 -0800 Subject: MDS archive In-Reply-To: <4B231F64.1020705@bitsavers.org> References: <4B231F64.1020705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B2669AA.6080101@bitsavers.org> On 12/11/09 8:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Looking at > http://arkiv.netbsd.se/?ml=cctalk&a=2004-12&t=558361 > > There was some work done years ago at collecting docs and firmware. > Looks like www.s100-manuals.com mentioned by Randy is gone. > I'm working on adding more MDS material to bitsavers, and didn't want > to dump firmware if it's already been done. > > > Since there have been no replies, I started dumping firmware and scanning the tops of PCBs. Getting the last version of firmware from the link mentioned would be nice. Has anyone already written code for decoding M2FM through a catweasel? I also put a bunch of stuff up for the iPDS. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 14 11:32:12 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:32:12 +0000 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/14/09 6:15 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. > > Look at the source. It supports jpgs, and you can mix 1bpp and jpg in a > document. > There is also a version around that handles .bmp I'd rather not use JPEG for pages that contain text. I've found a workaround though -- there's a patch in the Tumble mailing list archive which adds PNG (and JP2) support. I've also patched the TIFF loader to pay attention to the Photometry tag, so both "WhiteIsZero" and "BlackIsZero" 1bpp TIFFs load correctly. So now I can scan pages with Xsane, and throw them into a PDF. Now onto the OCRing... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 11:33:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:33:42 -0800 Subject: MDS archive In-Reply-To: <4B2669AA.6080101@bitsavers.org> References: <4B231F64.1020705@bitsavers.org>, <4B2669AA.6080101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B260676.2248.F90DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2009 at 8:36, Al Kossow wrote: > Since there have been no replies, I started dumping firmware and > scanning the tops of PCBs. Getting the last version of firmware from > the link mentioned would be nice. Has anyone already written code for > decoding M2FM through a catweasel? According to a cclist posting in October, cwtool now understands MMFM; I don't know if Karsten's released the code, however, so you may want to contact him directly. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 11:35:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:35:52 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W >>> TIFFs. >> Look at the source. It supports jpgs, and you can mix 1bpp and jpg >> in a document. >> There is also a version around that handles .bmp > > I'd rather not use JPEG for pages that contain text. [dave stands up and cheers] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 14 11:42:37 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:42:37 +0100 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091214184237.10781b58.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen > Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. > While I can use Imagemagick to convert the images to B&W, that defeats > the point: there are photos on the scanned pages, and I'd rather like to > keep them as photos, not black splodges. You can use (lib)tiff: http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/ 1. Create a multipage tiff file: tiffcp file1.tiff file2.tiff file3.tiff filen.tiff allfiles.tiff 2. Convert it to PDF tiff2pdf allfiles.tiff allfiles.pdf -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 11:49:43 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:49:43 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B267AB7.8090609@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen > Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. > While I can use Imagemagick to convert the images to B&W, that defeats > the point: there are photos on the scanned pages, and I'd rather like to > keep them as photos, not black splodges. Hmm, what are you using for the Imagemagick command line? I've thrown TIFFs at it before (at varying levels of bpp) and got sensible PDFs out the back end. It's possible that it's a versioning/library issue, though - doesn't IM make a call into someone elses' PDF library to do the actual assembly? Maybe it's this part that's "broken" on your particular setup. > Also, has anyone come up with a "best practice guide" for manual > scanning? At the moment I'm scanning like this: > > B&W text only: 600dpi, black and white, threshold=50%. I'd still do those at a few bpp unless the pages were totally free on contaminants, creases etc. - I've seen cases where 1bpp introduces noise into the image which can screw up a later OCR attempt. I'd question the threshold too, unless you've got time to proof-read everything (things like scans from dot-matrix printouts can vary quite a lot in tone I've found, so I think it's better to keep things "as-is" and consider things like threshold tweaks as part of a subsequent "post-process" or OCR phase) I've usually done things at 300 or 400dpi (depending on the content) just to keep the sizes down a bit - but with storage getting ever-cheaper there's perhaps not the incentive to do that now and 600dpi is fine (more is probably overkill unless trying to do things like fiche) > Obviously if there are better ways (in terms of quality and/or speed) > I'd like to know before I scan a ton of testgear manuals... I didn't have a sheet-feeder, but a lot of my stuff was comb-bound (and/or I had lots of data spread across manuals with low page counts). I did thousands of pages by hand, and it was somewhat soul-destroying. :/ > Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it and > then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the image > alone? Not me. I chose to delegate the OCR step to future generations (by which time OCR will hopefully be a little better anyway) :-) I couldn't handle scanning all the above content *and* proof-reading the subsequent OCR (and personally I like physical printouts, so whether it's OCR or images makes no difference to me) cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Dec 14 11:51:55 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:51:55 -0500 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 December 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I still use an Annex for consoles on a few of my machines (like > > some of the PDP-11s). They were made by Xylogics, later bought by > > Bay Networks => Nortel and are sometimes to be found rebadged by > > Sun. They're very versatile, and you can use the ports in all > > sorts of ways. > > I am familiar with Annex terminal servers, but only from a user > standpoint. I've never owned one nor set one up (in the day these > were popular, we had large amounts of real ports on our boxes (16-56 > each) and no TCP/IP). Is there an annex model with 8-16 ports I > should look for? I really don't need to keep something with 48 ports > powered up. Like Pete said, a MicroAnnex will do what you want. Personally, I prefer Xyplex 1600-series boxes, because I have a bunch of them, and they are what we have used at work bascially forever. Ethan, if you would like one of my 16-port Xyplex 1600s, send me a note off-list. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 14 11:59:38 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:59:38 +0000 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B267D0A.7000301@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 14, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I'd rather not use JPEG for pages that contain text. > > [dave stands up and cheers] I tried to think of a more verbose response, but really, I can say it in three letters: :-) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 12:57:04 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:57:04 -0300 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com><598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com><4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com><4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17eb01ca7cef$95a02990$0301a8c0@Alexandre> If I might be permitted one small cavil... the possessive "its" takes no apostrophe, any more than its close kin-words "his", "hers", "ours" or "theirs". Every one makes some of us flinch in discomfort. It's the only thing wrong with an otherwise-immaculate display, and as such, I thought I'd draw it to your attention... ------------- This is something that would be waaaaayyyy more apropriate in private... ;o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:02:47 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:02:47 -0300 Subject: Amiga Demo's References: Message-ID: <180601ca7cf0$6c4b9b50$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > 1) You know, you must kniow, my dislike of anything I don't have a proper > service manual for (have you tried to get a service manual for a DVD > player), that is not well-made (I've been inside some DVD players, once > was enough!), that is not properly documented (try getting data sheets on > some of the chips!), and so on I know that, but I have at least a pair of DVDs for which I have the service manual (elite models from Panasonic). Also, there is the - excellent - LD / DVD player from panasonic, for which also there is a service manual. These DVDs are in storage (I have no use for them since I got a XBOX - the former one, the black model) but I can look for more info if you wish. These are Panasonic "elite" units, you can say anything about them, but "badly built". > Darn it, I've read that part of the HDMI spec is only available under > NDA (this being to prevent you getting round the encrypition and making > perfect digital copies of copyrighted films). Having a device that's > undocumented is bad enough, but having an undocumented interface is > something I am not going to tolerate. Period! I still use the good old video baseband output, and it is well documented. I have no need for HDMI, since I still cannot afford a plasma/lcd display. > 2) But why would I want a DVD player? What would I use it for? Unlike > background music or a radio, a DVD player (or TV) requires you to watch > the output. Whcih means you can't be doing anything else at the same > time. I've got quite enough books to read, computers to document and > restore, projects to build, cmaeras to fix, skills to improve, related > thinsg to learn about, etc that I don't have any interest in waching DVDs > . There are excellent DVDs about these subject ;o) From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 14 12:06:34 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:06:34 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BE0445BB41F4FC78F06A2833390BB8D@tegp4> > Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:04:11 +0100 > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: Re: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4B252C9B.1010100 at hachti.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Hi Tony, > > thanks for the reply. > > > > >> The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load > the alignment pack and... > >> -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( > >> > >> Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I > could use? > > > > I have one, but there's no way I am trusting it to the postal 'service' > Hm. I can understand that... > > >> Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working > drives and formatted disks handy. > > > 3) With a 'scope connected to the read amplifer testpoints (as if doing > > the alignment with the pack) and the positioner set to cylinder 0, screw > > in the appropriate algnment screw. You'll see the singal amplitude rise > > as the ehad gets over the data track, and then fall off as you go past > it. > > How does the positioner find track 0?!? > Does it use the end of range microswitch and then count? This is a bit > unclear to me. With a working servo, the servo will move the carriage to what the optical transducer calls Track 00, but where the heads are with respect to the tracks in the disk pack is a matter of alignment, which was lost when the scale fell off and was re-attached. The heads could be anyplace, plus or minus many tracks of Track 00. There is not likely to be any information recorded towards the outer diameter from TK00 (maybe some residual unerased junk). If you can prerecord your test pack on a good drive with alternating patterns of 1F and 2F starting at TK00, say 1F for all sectors on TK00, 2F for all sectors on TK01, etc. for a few tracks, then it should be obvious where the pattern stops repeating as you manually move the heads in and out. The last good track as you move out is TK00. BTW, I say this assuming DEC didn't put some reserved tracks towards the outer diameter from TK00. Today the logical TK00 (or block 0000) is not at the outer diameter, but I suspect this is not so for the RK05. Tom From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Dec 14 12:12:48 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:12:48 +0000 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B267AB7.8090609@gmail.com> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B267AB7.8090609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B268020.5060206@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, what are you using for the Imagemagick command line? The problem isn't Imagemagick, it's that when you scan a greyscale image and then downconvert it to 1bpp, you get either black or white. The greyscales disappear and any photos basically get turned to crap. I've been using Xsane to scan -- For greyscale: Res: 600DPI BPP: 8 For B&W: Res: 600DPI BPP: 1 Halftoning: None Brightness: 0 Sharpness: 0 Gamma correction: default Threshold: 128 All saved to TIFF format -- greyscale images get saved as 8bit Deflated TIFF data, B&W as CCITT Group 4 FAX. Then to deal with the moire and screening patterns and convert the greyscale images to PNGs, I feed them through ImageMagick: convert FrontPage-0001.tiff -adaptive-blur 4x4 \ -units PixelsPerInch -density 600 -resample 300 \ -format png FrontPage-0001.png Then finally, convert to PDF with Tumble: tumble -b %F FrontPage-0001.png FrontPage-0002.tiff 0*.tiff \ -o tumbled_doc.pdf And view the result: evince tumbled_doc.pdf > - doesn't IM make a call into someone elses' PDF library to do the > actual assembly? Maybe it's this part that's "broken" on your particular > setup. I'm not using Imagemagick for the PDF conversion, I'm using Tumble. Also, FYI -- if anyone wants to play with my branch of Tumble (with PNG+JP2 support and the TIFF Photometry Tag bugfix), it's online here: http://hg.philpem.me.uk/tumble/ This syncs against my private Hg repository roughly every five minutes. Either clone the repository (if you use Mercurial you already know how to do this) or go to that URL and click the "bz2" link. @Eric: if you want this fork of Tumble to disappear, let me know off-list. I only forked it because it appeared to be completely unmaintained. > I'd still do those at a few bpp unless the pages were totally free on > contaminants, creases etc. Which these are. They're fresh out of the HP shrink-wrap. > I'd question the > threshold too, unless you've got time to proof-read everything (things > like scans from dot-matrix printouts can vary quite a lot in tone I've > found, so I think it's better to keep things "as-is" and consider things > like threshold tweaks as part of a subsequent "post-process" or OCR phase) These seem to be laser-printed. Or if not, they were printed with something very similar to a laser printer -- the pages have that distinctive toner-on-paper feel. > I didn't have a sheet-feeder, but a lot of my stuff was comb-bound > (and/or I had lots of data spread across manuals with low page counts). > I did thousands of pages by hand, and it was somewhat soul-destroying. :/ Yeah, this is pretty boring. I'm basically scanning a few pages, reading emails, scanning some more pages, doing some coding, and carrying on like that. At least it delays the effects of boredom a little. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From feedle at feedle.net Mon Dec 14 12:18:12 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:18:12 -0800 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Like Pete said, a MicroAnnex will do what you want. Personally, I > prefer Xyplex 1600-series boxes, because I have a bunch of them, and > they are what we have used at work bascially forever. > > Ethan, if you would like one of my 16-port Xyplex 1600s, send me a note > off-list. > > Pat > Side note: I remember reading somewhere that the old PortMaster 2e's could be used as a "reverse terminal server" (that is, telnet into the box and connect to a particular serial port for console access) with some optional software. Anybody done that? Replies can be off-list, I'm not sure how relevant this is.. other than, it would be handy to use to provide access to some old serial-driven gear. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 12:19:39 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:19:39 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B267D0A.7000301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk> <4B267D0A.7000301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <91893EA9-0DEC-4580-83A9-2D7AFC015B34@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> I'd rather not use JPEG for pages that contain text. >> [dave stands up and cheers] > > I tried to think of a more verbose response, but really, I can say > it in three letters: > > :-) :-) I find it incredibly irritating when people use JPEG for things that it's not suited for. It irritates me because it points to the bigger problem of people running full steam ahead and using technologies that they know NOTHING about, and they're just fine with that. Then they try to do things like present schematic diagrams (Yes, schematics! Even supposedly "technical" people do this!) in JPEG, and wonder why they get lots of unsightly artifacts around lines and sharp color transitions. Recently, I heard someone complaining about those artifacts after exporting an AutoCAD drawing to JPEG. He said "oh, they always do that, I think my computer has a virus or something." Moron. I wanted to hit him in the head with a shovel. So, folks: JPEG is for continuous-tone images, like natural scenes and photographs. It DOES NOT WORK even remotely well for "artificial" images. Use PNG or GIF for those. You'll get better compression ratios and MUCH better image quality. This isn't just an anal-retentive academic theoretical difference...we're talking about images that look good versus images that look like crap. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 14 12:22:09 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:22:09 -0800 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:15:30 +0000 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? > To: cctalk > Message-ID: <4B264882.4010901 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi guys, > I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen > Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. > While I can use Imagemagick to convert the images to B&W, that defeats > the point: there are photos on the scanned pages, and I'd rather like to > keep them as photos, not black splodges. > > Also, has anyone come up with a "best practice guide" for manual > scanning? At the moment I'm scanning like this: > > B&W text only: 600dpi, black and white, threshold=50%. > Text + photos: 600dpi, greyscale, then despeckle and scale down to > 300dpi. > > Obviously if there are better ways (in terms of quality and/or speed) > I'd like to know before I scan a ton of testgear manuals... > > Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it and > then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the image > alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most Adobe > software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you have to ask > how much it costs, you can't afford it." > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ Try ABBYY FineReader, http://finereader.abbyy.com/ or http://www.abbyyusa.com/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=2314 I expect the US$50 Express version will do what u want, I have been a very happy user of the PRO version for many years. Tom From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 12:24:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:24:18 -0500 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2009, at 1:18 PM, feedle wrote: >> Like Pete said, a MicroAnnex will do what you want. Personally, I >> prefer Xyplex 1600-series boxes, because I have a bunch of them, >> and they are what we have used at work bascially forever. >> >> Ethan, if you would like one of my 16-port Xyplex 1600s, send me a >> note off-list. > > Side note: I remember reading somewhere that the old PortMaster > 2e's could be used as a "reverse terminal server" (that is, telnet > into the box and connect to a particular serial port for console > access) with some optional software. Anybody done that? I have. The software for SunOS 4 was in.pmd. It worked well. > Replies can be off-list, I'm not sure how relevant this is.. other > than, it would be handy to use to provide access to some old serial- > driven gear. ...or, for that matter, NEW serial-driven gear. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 14 12:55:49 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:55:49 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > > Jolly interesting & good for you for not only keeping it alive but > also putting up a lovely simple clear smart-looking webpage to teach > people about it. > > If I might be permitted one small cavil... the possessive "its" takes > no apostrophe, any more than its close kin-words "his", "hers", "ours" > or "theirs". Every one makes some of us flinch in discomfort. It's the > only thing wrong with an otherwise-immaculate display, and as such, I > thought I'd draw it to your attention... Thanks for the comments; the "its" issue I am aware of. In a spirit of discussion (not contention) I'll make a reply here; as Alexandre suggests, more should probably be off-list. Below is some reply I made in discussing the topic with another fellow. The comparision with "hers", "ours", etc. is not quite symmetric in that those words indicate possession without the "s", whereas as "it" does not. (For my part, I cringe every time I hear someone use the word "hard" when they mean "difficult" - a battle I'm not about to win.) ---- EXTRACT ---- ... I'm aware there is a commonly-held rule to distinguish the cases as you indicate, however the apostrophe is valid in both cases according to other standard rules of English and the intention is generally (always?) distinguishable from surrounding context. In other words, I've never seen the need to distinguish the cases, so why bother with an additional rule. > ... > ... I appreciate your point about reducing distraction for those in the know, and I agree these things matter but my position is one of reasoned dissension, not an arbitrary personal preference. The point is that the rule is unnecessary. The words are homonyms, so there is no distinction in the spoken language and I have yet to see an instance of need to distinguish them in the written language for clarity of intent or meaning. In debates or research I have yet to hear a reasoned justification for the existence of the rule, other than "there is a rule". In contrast, your/you're and there/their/they're, even though homonymns, have substantive justifications behind them that inhibit their exchange. The following link provides a better explanation/justification for the rule than most (apostrophe for possessive on nouns but not pronouns, most sites just specify the rule): http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-its-and-its.htm but note a couple of the comments: As one who has been lucky enough to have a facility for spelling and grammar, mistakes such as its and it's always irritate me. I can understand why people are confused about it, though, and wonder if one day we will change the correct usage to "it's" in both cases? There seems little point in making a distinction. The split infinitive was also a bone of contention; now that is considered acceptable. - petermo The use of the pronoun "its" with the apostrophe (it's) was in common use to denote singular possession up until the end of the 18th century. The practise of using the apostrophe then declined but I understand was used by Dickens in his novels and continued to be used by other writers into the 20th century. Certainly when I was at school 1950's - 60's I was taught that it was still appropriate to use. I have seen it used recently and I suspect that rather than wrong usage the authors were taught as I by similar teachers to myself. I am English and was educated here in London. - anon11993 It's natural language, some rules are not hard-and-fast. ---- END EXTRACT ---- From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Dec 14 12:58:53 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:58:53 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B268AED.7030000@verizon.net> Tom Gardner wrote: > Try ABBYY FineReader, http://finereader.abbyy.com/ or > http://www.abbyyusa.com/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=2314 > > I expect the US$50 Express version will do what u want, I have been a very > happy user of the PRO version for many years. > > Tom I second this recommendation. ABBYY FR is a great product and works fantastically. I don't like many of the auto-modes though, and prefer to select each region of every page manually. This involves clicking a tool, highlighting the area of interest --- and telling abbyy whether it is a graphic or a text box. This process is mind-numbing, but gratifying once it is finished. The OCR is very good, but depending on the type of text, you'll still get sort of 1-5% error. This doesn't sound like alot, but ends up being 4 or 5 corrections per page. Some pages are perfect, and don't require any correction. Proofreading the OCR'd text is absolutely required for a solid finished product. You can almost always tell why abbyy didn't read something --- there is usually a noticeable defect in the original text. There is occasionally "O" for the number zero, and "l" for the number 1 confusion. As you might expect. If you don't tell it (or it didn't figure it out) that a portion of the page is a graphic, it will try to OCR the graphic with worthless although interesting results. :) Abbyy suggests 400dpi minimum, but I usually use 600dpi. I've found that I get pretty good results with 600. There's definitely more errors under 300. I scan to TIFF, of course. :) I've had no luck "training" abbyy to learn the text --- it seems like a never ending challenge, and doesn't improve recognition much that I can tell. Regarding Adobe doing the OCR, their OCR is decent, but no where near abbyy. Adobe OCR is good for "keeping-the-original-scanned-graphic" and make it searchable. But if you entirely recreate the original document from text (simple as unchecking a box or something), you'll notice the errors are simply way too much. The tools for repairing the PDFs are pretty arcane, and Adobe is a just a pain in the butt for this type of stuff. While not perfect, this is an example PDF made from abbyy. http://www.techtravels.org/tech/BrianInstrumentsManuals.pdf Hope this helps. Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:52:01 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:52:01 -0300 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk><4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk><4B267D0A.7000301@philpem.me.uk> <91893EA9-0DEC-4580-83A9-2D7AFC015B34@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <18b001ca7cf9$553c0c20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > > I find it incredibly irritating when people use JPEG for things > that it's not suited for. It irritates me because it points to the > Lack of proper knowledge. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 13:17:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:17:28 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <18b001ca7cf9$553c0c20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk><4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk><4B267D0A.7000301@philpem.me.uk> <91893EA9-0DEC-4580-83A9-2D7AFC015B34@neurotica.com> <18b001ca7cf9$553c0c20$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <601BB75A-503F-4CA9-8C0F-CC4CB60D7BEA@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> I find it incredibly irritating when people use JPEG for things >> that it's not suited for. It irritates me because it points to >> the > > Lack of proper knowledge. ...and a willingness to use technology without that knowledge. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:19:44 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:19:44 +0000 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The dictionary follows use not the other way round in natural language. I have seen spelling also change in my lifetime, shewn->shown some american spelling is drifting to general usage color->colour. Dewey was an early proponent of speling changes. http://www.spellingsociety.org/news/media/dewey.php Dave Caroline From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:19:20 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:19:20 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <91893EA9-0DEC-4580-83A9-2D7AFC015B34@neurotica.com> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B265495.2090501@bitsavers.org> <4B26769C.2040807@philpem.me.uk> <4B267D0A.7000301@philpem.me.uk> <91893EA9-0DEC-4580-83A9-2D7AFC015B34@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B268FB8.60802@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > I find it incredibly irritating when people use JPEG for things that > it's not suited for. Or uncompressed bitmaps for things that JPEG is suited for :-) > It irritates me because it points to the bigger > problem of people running full steam ahead and using technologies that > they know NOTHING about, and they're just fine with that. Yeah, right tool for the job and all that. Drives me insane, too. > I wanted to hit him in the head with a shovel. So long as it was *his* shovel, otherwise you'd have to clean it afterwards. :-) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 14 13:31:35 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:31:35 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I appreciate your point about reducing distraction for those in the know, and > I agree these things matter but my position is one of reasoned dissension, > not an arbitrary personal preference. The point is that the rule is unnecessary. > There are lots of rules in English grammar/spelling that are "unnecessary." That doesn't mean I don't cringe when I get a text message that reads "hey u, wat r u up 2??" Nor does it mean I'm not going to try to preserve some of these rules... Sure, I know what the sender means, that doesn't mean I have to like the way it was said. (Flash forward 50 years to when the English alphabet only has 12 letters...) - Josh > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 13:36:29 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:36:29 -0500 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> I appreciate your point about reducing distraction for those in >> the know, and >> I agree these things matter but my position is one of reasoned >> dissension, >> not an arbitrary personal preference. The point is that the rule >> is unnecessary. >> > There are lots of rules in English grammar/spelling that are > "unnecessary." That doesn't mean I don't cringe when I get a text > message that reads "hey u, wat r u up 2??" Nor does it mean I'm > not going to try to preserve some of these rules... Sure, I know > what the sender means, that doesn't mean I have to like the way it > was said. (Flash forward 50 years to when the English alphabet > only has 12 letters...) The recent death of the question mark is one that drives me ape shit. I lose count of the number of times in a day that I read questions ending with a period. Morons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:37:25 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:37:25 -0600 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> References: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <9e2403920912141137t1361afb6s7e7505bd57dd03fc@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Flash forward 50 years to when the > English alphabet only has 12 letters...) Something like this, perhaps: http://www.ojohaven.com/fun/spelling.html Some things are becoming eerily accurate as the current generation grinds on... Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Dec 14 13:40:00 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:40:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest > /dev/null In-Reply-To: <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 14 13:47:05 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Dec 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> There are lots of rules in English grammar/spelling that are "unnecessary." >> That doesn't mean I don't cringe when I get a text message that reads "hey >> u, wat r u up 2??" Nor does it mean I'm not going to try to preserve some >> of these rules... Sure, I know what the sender means, that doesn't mean I >> have to like the way it was said. (Flash forward 50 years to when the >> English alphabet only has 12 letters...) > > The recent death of the question mark is one that drives me ape shit. > I lose count of the number of times in a day that I read questions > ending with a period. One way I deal with this is to see which of the two interpretations would be more embarassing to the writer, then choose the more embarassing one. "What? You asked me a question? Looks more like it was a statement. Do you remember what a question mark is?". A similar approach was used to break someone of horribly mangling the word "cadmium". After being offered cat snacks (kitty yums) several times instead of batteries, he started to clean up his speech. This reminds me of a film I watched in elementary school. It was about a king who decided to outlaw punctuation and the subsequent mess. "I'm bored! I know! I'll pass a law. Bring me the dictionary! I'll pass a law forbidding... forbidding... forbidding PUNCTUATION!". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 14 14:04:10 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:04:10 -0500 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold Message-ID: <01CA7CCE.B61F6B20@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:57:04 -0300 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Subject: Re: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold >>If I might be permitted one small cavil... the possessive "its" takes >>no apostrophe, any more than its close kin-words "his", "hers", "ours" >>or "theirs". Every one makes some of us flinch in discomfort. It's the >>only thing wrong with an otherwise-immaculate display, and as such, I >>thought I'd draw it to your attention... ------------- >This is something that would be waaaaayyyy more apropriate in private... >;o) ------------- I respectfully disagree. I think the above suggestion applies pretty widely these days; not only does it's instead of its make some of us flinch, but it can be distracting and make the relevant text seem to be less professional. m *********************************************************************************** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 12:47:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:47:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B2531CD.8010709@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Dec 13, 9 06:26:21 pm Message-ID: > > - Extra mouse and keyboard (non-standard connectors) > > Since I lack a mouse for mine, can I put in a plea that whoever does > adopt this system consider selling / trading me the mouse? 10 years ago I have -- somewhere -- an IBM optical mouse. I know nothing about it other than it's 3-button, and IIRC the cable ends in a DE9 connector. Inside is a microcontroller (8051). and not a lot else. I think I once traced out some of the wiring back to the DE9 and came to the conclusion tha the microntroller ran between the -ve supply line and something 5V positiove wrt that and there was a transsitor buffer to make the output RS232-like. Amazingly I've found it. The label on the bottom says : IBM MOD 5277-1 MODEL MOUSE MFD BY SUMMAGRAPHICS CORP FAIRFIELD CT USA It also says FCC IDD : BY78SDMOUSE I am not going to type out the FCC notice or attempt to reprocude the barcode, but under the barcode is the stirg 71B35021819109 The connector is a DE9 with pins 1 and 3 mising Philip, if you think this will work on your 6150, you are welcome to try it. I don;'t have the mouse pad (and as I said it's optical, from the time when you needed a special mouse pad for optical mice), and it is, of course, untested.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 12:50:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:50:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Dec 13, 9 02:54:25 pm Message-ID: > Speaking of digital tube equipment, while I'm not ready to get rid of this > stuff myself just yet, I'd like to ask whether others (the nearer the better) > might have any interest in tube-based digital frequency counters and such; e.g: Such things certainly interest me, although where I'd put one is another (big) problem. If anything like this ever turns up in the UK, I am pretty sure there would be people who are interested. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 13:37:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:37:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <4B2581C8.9020902@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Dec 14, 9 01:07:36 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, I don;t know what manuals you have, I am working from a printset (only). I find it much easier in the end to start from the schematics (which are probably the most accurate representation of the actual device). I've found too many erorrs and unclear statements in circuit descriptions (not just DEC!) over the years... > > >> How does the positioner find track 0?!? > > > > It's all done with that optical transduce (the glass scale, the lamp, and > > a couple (or is it 3) photodetectors under the carriage). IIRC it moves > > the heads towards the spindle, then as soon as it gets a valid signal > > from that transducer, it locks to it and calls it cylinder 0. > > >> Does it use the end of range microswitch and then count? This is a bit > >> unclear to me. > > > > AFAIK the microswitch is only used to disconnect the emergency-retract > > battery when the heads are fully retracted. It's not part of the > > positioner system, it wouldn't be repeatable enough. > > Six sensors....! No, 3 sensors. SIN, COS, LIMIT. There are 6 wires, hut the 'L' side of each sensor is earthed (check the chassis wiring diagram and the backplane wirelist in the printset). The 'H' side of the 3 sensors go to the servo analogue/preamp PCB > As far as I understand the documentation, the "outer limit" switch > *IS* crucial...! Huh... :-( I think you're getting confused by DECs (confusing, I'll agree) terminology. The limit switch -- the microswitch on the positioner -- produces the HOME L signal (it also, as I thought, disconnectes the emergency-retract battery). The HOME L signal is used as part of the spin-up enable circuit (I think it won't try to start a drive if the heads aren't home), and also to disable the servo REV signal on a normal retract. The OUTER LIMIT signal comes from the servo analogue/preamp board, and is derrived from the LIMIT optical sensor. Not a switch. > > > Did the drive work properly after re-fitting that glass scale? > No *g* I suspect that is the problem. Those 3 signals are critical to the operation of the positioner. Look at the G938 schematics in the printset. E14 is the the servo summing amplifier, it drives the power amplifer (on a separate PCB), otuput on pin BU2. It can take a velocity signal from E12 (for seeks) and a position signal from E6 (derrived from the SIN POSITION signal, aka SIN H) for holding on track. Also on that schematic see how the COUNT PULSE FWD and COUNT PULSE REV signals are produced (they are the track crossing signals to drive the current cylinder counter) and the OUTER LIMIT L and INNER LIMIT L signal. > But I don't know if this was the problem. Better: if this was ONE of > the problemS. But I assume that > I'll run in trouble with the sensors.. My experience (with anything, not just RK05s) says that if you have a problem, correct it. The drive (in this case) can't possibly work if the outputs from the optical transducer are incorrect. Disable the servo drive(put the switch on the power amplifer PCB down) and look at TP2 (pin AM1), TP4 (AS1) and TP10 (AJ1) while moving the carriage by hand (disk loaded and spinning, or you'll ruin the heads!) > > > > >> everything is moving a bit. Last but not least, a PSU regulator failed > >> with great optical effects. > > > > Which one? I am wondering if you have failed power transsitors on the > > servo amplifier board that are overloading one of the power rails. Ma be > > worth checking. > 20V I *think*. I did not have the impression of overload. This happened after about one hour of > operation. After many years... Gave some nice sparks. Next trap for the unwary. The 2 15V regulators (+ve and -ve) are _indentical_./ The mains transformer hs 2 secondary windings, both feeding bridge rectiifers and smoothing capacitors. One provides the +ve voltages (+5V, +15V), the -ve side of that bridge is logic ground. The other supplies a 15V regulator unit, and the +ve output of the regulator is connected to ground. The result is that the -ve side of the bridge/capacitor (and the common point of the regulator) is at -15V wrt ground. It's a swtiching regulator of course. What seems to have failed? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 13:51:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a Honeywell-Bull HD120 diskdrive. In-Reply-To: <4B264BEB.4060107@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 14, 9 03:30:03 pm Message-ID: > > i suppose it had to happen sometime... THis is a real pity. The Lilith is a machine I find very interesting, and it's a pity if one fails. > The cartride harddisk drive in my Lilith has died, it is unable to > find tracks anymore. Is this a custom drive for this machine, or a more standard one. Very few manufacturers (espeicailly at that time) made their own hard disks. > Headmovement is of course controlled by the only ASIC, thus pure > unobtainium, that is inside the machine. How much documentation do you have on the operation of the drive? Is is possible to make a replacement for this ASIC (is it digital only, or does it, as I susepct, contain the analogue servo circuitry). I assume you've checked the obvious -- power rails and such. I would also guess the power amplifier to drive the positioner is not in the ASIC. That is much more likely to fail than a low-poerr-ish ASIC. I asusme you've checked that too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 14:02:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:02:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <180601ca7cf0$6c4b9b50$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 14, 9 04:02:47 pm Message-ID: > I know that, but I have at least a pair of DVDs for which I have the > service manual (elite models from Panasonic). Also, there is the - > excellent - LD / DVD player from panasonic, for which also there is a > service manual. I suspect such players are too expenice _new_ for me even to consider buying, and contain suffieicently complex custom ICs that it's a bad idea to buy one for which manufacuters spares are no longer available. And how detailed are these service manuals? Any real details on the internals of the chips (at least one of my old VCR service manuals includes transisotr-level schematics of all the ICs). > I still use the good old video baseband output, and it is well > documented. I have no need for HDMI, since I still cannot afford a > plasma/lcd display. No, I've got nothing to feed HDMI into either, but it would still worry me that there's undocuemtned ciorcuity in the DVD player driving an undocumetned (to me) interface > > > 2) But why would I want a DVD player? What would I use it for? Unlike > > background music or a radio, a DVD player (or TV) requires you to watch > > the output. Whcih means you can't be doing anything else at the same > > time. I've got quite enough books to read, computers to document and > > restore, projects to build, cmaeras to fix, skills to improve, related > > thinsg to learn about, etc that I don't have any interest in waching DVDs > > . > > There are excellent DVDs about these subject ;o) And there are some even more excellent books about said subjects. Books don't crash, don't have undocuemtned interfaces, don't needme to produce service mnauls for them, and so on. And I can read a book anywhere, including at my workbench. I've yet to se a DVD (as opposed to a DVD-ROM, which is not useable on DVD player normally) about the technical side of classic computing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 14:10:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:10:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 14, 9 02:36:29 pm Message-ID: > The recent death of the question mark is one that drives me ape : ? @ . ; That should do it :-) [Sorry, couldn't resist, this is classiccmp after all) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 14:16:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:16:10 -0500 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47CA1323-6247-4C83-BB70-879DBC38D98B@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Speaking of digital tube equipment, while I'm not ready to get rid >> of this >> stuff myself just yet, I'd like to ask whether others (the nearer >> the better) >> might have any interest in tube-based digital frequency counters >> and such; e.g: > > Such things certainly interest me, although where I'd put one is > another > (big) problem. > > If anything like this ever turns up in the UK, I am pretty sure there > would be people who are interested. Here in the US too! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:16:01 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:16:01 -0300 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com><4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <1b7801ca7d03$07712570$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > (Flash forward 50 years to when the English alphabet only has 12 > letters...) "Idiocracy" comes to mind. Never watched something so funny :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:16:36 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:16:36 -0300 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com><4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> <94464E93-1610-4493-AA37-8AF5182494BE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1b7901ca7d03$08b7d640$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > The recent death of the question mark is one that drives me ape > shit. I lose count of the number of times in a day that I read > questions ending with a period. Lucky you. Seems that in portuguese, all punctuation was banned :o) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 14:19:32 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:19:32 -0500 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The recent death of the question mark is one that drives me ape > > : ? @ . ; > > That should do it :-) [Sorry, couldn't resist, this is classiccmp > after all) Nicely done!! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:19:21 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:19:21 -0300 Subject: IBM RT-PC available References: Message-ID: <1b8801ca7d03$b33e5120$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Philip, if you think this will work on your 6150, you are welcome to try > it. I don;'t have the mouse pad (and as I said it's optical, from the > time when you needed a special mouse pad for optical mice), and it is, of > course, untested.. Maybe if someone comes up with the protocol (or some reference for the original mouse, like...schematics :oD) I can help in doing something like a PS-2 converter :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:23:16 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:23:16 -0300 Subject: Amiga Demo's References: Message-ID: <1b8901ca7d03$b4a8b690$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I suspect such players are too expenice _new_ for me even to consider > buying, and contain suffieicently complex custom ICs that it's a bad idea > to buy one for which manufacuters spares are no longer available. They **were** expensive. Now they are almost free. No one wants something that only plays DVDs. Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service manual but full listing of the ROM :oD > And how detailed are these service manuals? Any real details on the > internals of the chips (at least one of my old VCR service manuals > includes transisotr-level schematics of all the ICs). Now you are a bit on the heavy side... :) No, you don't have the layouts of the ICs. > No, I've got nothing to feed HDMI into either, but it would still worry me > that there's undocuemtned ciorcuity in the DVD player driving an > undocumetned (to me) interface But what is the matter on that? I'll not use that anyways :) And my unit don't have HDMI out. > And there are some even more excellent books about said subjects. Books > don't crash, don't have undocuemtned interfaces, don't needme to produce > service mnauls for them, and so on. And I can read a book anywhere, > including at my workbench. But don't have video :) > I've yet to se a DVD (as opposed to a DVD-ROM, which is not useable on > DVD player normally) about the technical side of classic computing. Jim? :oD From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 14 14:33:27 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:33:27 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B26A118.58181B6E@cs.ubc.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > > > There are lots of rules in English grammar/spelling that are > "unnecessary." That doesn't mean I don't cringe when I get a text > message that reads "hey u, wat r u up 2??" Nor does it mean I'm not > going to try to preserve some of these rules... Sure, I know what the > sender means, that doesn't mean I have to like the way it was said. > (Flash forward 50 years to when the English alphabet only has 12 letters...) Geez. I attempted to politely make one reply to an issue which someone else raised - which I think was reasonable as it was 'in my defense' and the issue was raised in public - flagged the issue as off-topic and suggested that further discussion should be off-list. In response we get a reply that not only fails to see or address the argument being made, but non-sensically replies to a portion of my statement cut out of it's (<-note) context. Enough. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 14 14:51:19 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:51:19 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B26A118.58181B6E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> <4B26A118.58181B6E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <568F8F69-2A60-4361-9DBF-F44D58816608@mail.msu.edu> On Dec 14, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >> There are lots of rules in English grammar/spelling that are >> "unnecessary." That doesn't mean I don't cringe when I get a text >> message that reads "hey u, wat r u up 2??" Nor does it mean I'm not >> going to try to preserve some of these rules... Sure, I know what the >> sender means, that doesn't mean I have to like the way it was said. >> (Flash forward 50 years to when the English alphabet only has 12 >> letters...) > > Geez. I attempted to politely make one reply to an issue which someone > else raised - which I think was reasonable as it was 'in my defense' > and > the issue was raised in public - flagged the issue as off-topic and > suggested > that further discussion should be off-list. > > In response we get a reply that not only fails to see or address the > argument > being made, but non-sensically replies to a portion of my statement > cut out > of it's (<-note) context. > > Enough. I'll not take this ot thread any further; but your argument seemed to be "I shouldn't have to care about the proper use of apostrophes as context is good enough and the rules are arbitrary." I disagree, but perhaps I have misunderstood your argument. In either case I meant you no disrespect. Josh > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 14:52:51 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:52:51 -0500 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) Message-ID: On 12/14/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> I suspect such players are too expenice _new_ for me even to consider >> buying, and contain suffieicently complex custom ICs that it's a bad idea >> to buy one for which manufacuters spares are no longer available. > > Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service manual > but full listing of the ROM :oD I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_ detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the firmware. It's not full circuit diagrams and datasheets, but from the software side of things, much, much better than most devices. It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive devices. That's the model I was contemplating mounting the IDE-CF rig on for the Click! experiment (since I already have some 3.5"-drive-bay-PCMCIA adapter frames on hand). My main AP660 is on the fritz right now, but it's probably PSU issues. Fortunately, I have a parts unit I can use to verify that everything else is good with. I've had one since it was new and been very happy with it. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:05:24 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:05:24 -0300 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) References: Message-ID: <1bdb01ca7d0a$deb66200$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_ > detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the > firmware. "One-firmware-for-all" is the name of the game. There is a small routine I contribuited to the pool :oD From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 14 15:20:22 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:20:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: References: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20091214131912.R29818@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009, Dave Caroline wrote: > The dictionary follows use not the other way round in natural language. > I have seen spelling also change in my lifetime, shewn->shown some > american spelling is drifting to general usage color->colour. Dewey > was an early proponent of speling changes. > http://www.spellingsociety.org/news/media/dewey.php There have certainly been many besides Dui. A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 14 15:16:29 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:16:29 -0600 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> Message-ID: <200912142120.nBELKXK9055485@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:18 PM 12/14/2009, feedle wrote: >Side note: I remember reading somewhere that the old PortMaster 2e's could be used as a "reverse terminal server" (that is, telnet into the box and connect to a particular serial port for console access) with some optional software. Anybody done that? I have a pair of Portmaster 3 if anyone wants them. - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 14 15:24:07 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:24:07 -0800 Subject: Ferguson Big Board question Message-ID: <4B26ACF7.54DD21C9@cs.ubc.ca> I'm just considering divesting myself of a Ferguson Big Board system that I've never played with. Looking it over and reading about the FBB .. just out of curiousity, does anyone know offhand whether the on-board video display relied on the system Z80 CPU (such as in the Apple II or sinclair ZX80), or was it a 'pure peripheral' to the CPU? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:34:57 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:34:57 -0500 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <20091214131912.R29818@shell.lmi.net> References: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <20091214131912.R29818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/14/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud > hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. My reaction to reading this the first time (many years ago) was "Holy cow! Mark Twain was an alien from the planet Resida!" (a reference you'll get if you've played Infocom's "Planetfall"). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 15:47:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:47:26 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: References: , <20091214131912.R29818@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4B2641EE.29220.F7DF33@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2009 at 16:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: > My reaction to reading this the first time (many years ago) was "Holy > cow! Mark Twain was an alien from the planet Resida!" (a reference > you'll get if you've played Infocom's "Planetfall"). Before Twain, Noah Webster was an advocate of spelling simplification. (That's why we in the US spell "color" and not "colour"). Webster's simplifications took hold here because he had market share. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 15:59:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:59:35 -0800 Subject: Ferguson Big Board question In-Reply-To: <4B26ACF7.54DD21C9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B26ACF7.54DD21C9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B2644C7.4032.102FBED@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Dec 2009 at 13:24, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm just considering divesting myself of a Ferguson Big Board system > that I've never played with. > > Looking it over and reading about the FBB .. just out of curiousity, > does anyone know offhand whether the on-board video display relied on > the system Z80 CPU (such as in the Apple II or sinclair ZX80), or was > it a 'pure peripheral' to the CPU? The CPU could read and write the display memory (4x2114 SRAM), but otherwise it was autonomous and did not rely on the CPU for operation. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 14 16:13:20 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:13:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: References: <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <20091214131912.R29818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Dec 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/14/09, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud >> hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. > > My reaction to reading this the first time (many years ago) was "Holy > cow! Mark Twain was an alien from the planet Resida!" (a reference > you'll get if you've played Infocom's "Planetfall"). Given that the Infocom guys are fairly well-read, I'm sure that they borrowed ideas from Twain in that regard. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:39:07 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:39:07 -0500 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: References: <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <20091214131912.R29818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/14/09, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 14 Dec 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 12/14/09, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud >>> hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. >> >> My reaction to reading this the first time (many years ago) was "Holy >> cow! Mark Twain was an alien from the planet Resida!" (a reference >> you'll get if you've played Infocom's "Planetfall"). > > Given that the Infocom guys are fairly well-read, I'm sure that they > borrowed ideas from Twain in that regard. I'm sure that's the case, but since I played Planetfall long before I read the Twain essay, my initial reaction went the other way. ;-) -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 14 17:38:43 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:38:43 -0700 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B26CC83.1000107@jetnet.ab.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > message that reads "hey u, wat r u up 2??" Nor does it mean I'm not > going to try to preserve some of these rules... Sure, I know what the > sender means, that doesn't mean I have to like the way it was said. > (Flash forward 50 years to when the English alphabet only has 12 > letters...) > And all in Japanese. > - Josh From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 14 18:35:44 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:35:44 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> <4B26A118.58181B6E@cs.ubc.ca> <568F8F69-2A60-4361-9DBF-F44D58816608@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B26D9E0.6EA27F7A@cs.ubc.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > > I'll not take this ot thread any further; but your argument seemed to > be "I shouldn't have to care about the proper use of apostrophes as > context is good enough and the rules are arbitrary." I disagree, but > perhaps I have misunderstood your argument. In either case I meant > you no disrespect. My argument is considerably more concise, and limited to the specific issue of "its" vs "it's", than what your statement would suggest; it's there in my first reply. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 14 18:39:33 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:39:33 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The best program is .... Adobe Acrobat (real, full version Acrobat; not the free "Acrobat Reader". Acrobat is an incredibly rich and powerful tool for doing EVERYTHING related to PDF files. It's far more powerful than most people have any idea. Unfortunately, it's expensive. But it can do what you want, and more. Scanning: Generally, scan at 300 dpi, in Grayscale (256 shades of white-to-black). [Obviously, this is for monochrome documents]. There is no reason to use 600 dpi unless the document is very unusual, it will only make the file 4x larger and, in most cases, no better. JPEG is ok, but keep the compression light. Your file size should be a few hundred thousand bytes (up to approaching a megabyte) per page, although this depends on the document. This works for both text only and documents with [black and white] photos. [you MAY want to use 600 dpi on pages with halftone (dithered dot) photos to get rid of moir?]. Do not use "black and white" (e.g. 1 bit per pixel; every pixel either white or black) even for "black and white" documents. Grayscale always produces a MUCH better result. I know it's counter-intuitive when the document is just black text, but it's true. There are ways to get Acrobat cheaply. The best way is through educational channels. Students at participating institutions can get current version PROFESSIONAL editions ($449 list) [OUCH !!] for anywhere from $55 to $110. Another approach is to buy an OLD, full version copy of Acrobat used on E-Bay so that you qualify for the "upgrade" editions of the latest (or later) versions ($99 to $199 instead of .... $449). Speaking of educational discounts, Students can buy a copy of Windows 7 PROFESSIONAL for $30. I won't go into other student deals (I teach part time at a local school), but the software deals available to students are so good (Thousands and thousands of dollars worth of software (Microsoft, Adobe, Corel, AutoCad, etc. available at like up to 90% off) that it can easily pay to take one course just to become a "qualifying student" and be able to buy this stuff. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:15:30 +0000 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? Hi guys, I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen Eric Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. While I can use Imagemagick to convert the images to B&W, that defeats the point: there are photos on the scanned pages, and I'd rather like to keep them as photos, not black splodges. Also, has anyone come up with a "best practice guide" for manual scanning? At the moment I'm scanning like this: B&W text only: 600dpi, black and white, threshold=50%. Text + photos: 600dpi, greyscale, then despeckle and scale down to 300dpi. Obviously if there are better ways (in terms of quality and/or speed) I'd like to know before I scan a ton of testgear manuals... Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it and then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the image alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most Adobe software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 14 18:53:26 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:53:26 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200912150053.nBF0rm29075487@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 06:39 PM 12/14/2009, Barry Watzman wrote: >There are ways to get Acrobat cheaply. The best way is through educational >channels. Students at participating institutions can get current version >PROFESSIONAL editions ($449 list) [OUCH !!] for anywhere from $55 to $110. >Another approach is to buy an OLD, full version copy of Acrobat used on >E-Bay so that you qualify for the "upgrade" editions of the latest (or >later) versions ($99 to $199 instead of .... $449). My Fujitsu S510 scanner was $429.59 at CDW and came with Acrobat Standard 8 and ABBY FineReader 3 ("for ScanSnap" so may be limited.) - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 19:25:55 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:25:55 -0500 Subject: Musa auction Message-ID: I just heard about this an hour ago. The estate of John Musa (software engineering old timer) is having a big auction TONIGHT (as in right now). A friend is there, and he says that their are about 50 box lots of interesting computer docs. I suppose I will find out what happens. Any reports from the field? Did any of us go? -- Will From bear at typewritten.org Mon Dec 14 20:57:42 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:57:42 -0800 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93494232-46FA-43E6-B8F0-D1DD381AD31C@typewritten.org> On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Amazingly I've found it. The label on the bottom says : > IBM > MOD 5277-1 The 5277 mouse is used with the 5271 PC/XT (or 5273 AT) 3270/G and 3270/GX. I believe it may connect to the top DE9 port present on some models of the 3270 PC keyboard interface adapter. ok bear From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Dec 14 21:44:41 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:44:41 -0500 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4B270629.1040301@hawkmountain.net> feedle wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Like Pete said, a MicroAnnex will do what you want. Personally, I >> prefer Xyplex 1600-series boxes, because I have a bunch of them, and >> they are what we have used at work bascially forever. >> >> Ethan, if you would like one of my 16-port Xyplex 1600s, send me a >> note off-list. >> >> Pat >> > > > Side note: I remember reading somewhere that the old PortMaster 2e's > could be used as a "reverse terminal server" (that is, telnet into the > box and connect to a particular serial port for console access) with > some optional software. Anybody done that? > Replies can be off-list, I'm not sure how relevant this is.. other > than, it would be handy to use to provide access to some old > serial-driven gear. > I don't recall any optional software to do this.... I setup PM2Es so that telnet to a specific port would connect me to a specific serial port. Even added logins that would connect.... so telnet to the pm2e, login as a particular user/password and hit a specific port. There was software that you could load on SunOS (for instance) that would make the serial ports available as if they were 'local' to the workstation.... but I never remember encountering any special PM2E software that you put on the PM2E itself. -- Curt From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 14 21:49:45 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:49:45 -0800 Subject: very OT: it's vs. its / was Re: tube digital interest In-Reply-To: <4B26D9E0.6EA27F7A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <598AACB6-12BA-4CB9-9261-5F4FE9F9CA6E@neurotica.com> <4B2273FB.2000002@gmail.com> <4B2570A0.625614DA@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0912131630m37574e43x660d96688060e634@mail.gmail.com> <4B268A35.4FC16FDC@cs.ubc.ca> <4B269297.4060905@mail.msu.edu> <4B26A118.58181B6E@cs.ubc.ca> <568F8F69-2A60-4361-9DBF-F44D58816608@mail.msu.edu> <4B26D9E0.6EA27F7A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B270759.8000608@mail.msu.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I'll not take this ot thread any further; but your argument seemed to >> be "I shouldn't have to care about the proper use of apostrophes as >> context is good enough and the rules are arbitrary." I disagree, but >> perhaps I have misunderstood your argument. In either case I meant >> you no disrespect. >> > > My argument is considerably more concise, and limited to the specific issue of > "its" vs "it's", than what your statement would suggest; it's there in my first reply. > > Ah, now that I get back from work and re-read it, my most humble of apologies. I guess this is a good reason not to write e-mail before my daily dose of caffeine... Josh From marvin at west.net Mon Dec 14 22:01:35 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:01:35 -0800 Subject: Finding schematics, was Re: IBM RT-PC available Message-ID: <4B270A1F.8000100@west.net> From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > Maybe if someone comes up with the protocol (or some reference for > the original mouse, like...schematics :oD) I can help in doing > something like a PS-2 converter :) A rather neat trick I learned for (sometimes) finding schematics of such stuff is to look at the FCC ID number on the mouse. With that, you can do a lookup on one of the FCC databases, and you will find things like manuals, schematics, drawings, etc. A quick Google search (and a redirect) brought up the search engine: http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/ From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Dec 14 22:22:41 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:22:41 +0000 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair Message-ID: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> My until-very-recently-working Amdek Color-I RGB Monitor (November 1983) has given up the ghost. It was working perfectly the last time I powered it up, but now it doesn't turn on. No noise, no hum, no glow, nothing, it's just silent, as if it died in its sleep. (It's worth noting that it was left un-plugged between the last time I used it and now, so I don't think it was a surge). I'm embarrassed to admit this to the many old veterans on this list, but while I have a good history of working with digital electronics, CRT repair is well outside my scope of experience. Still, I'd really like to fix this guy and get it working again, so I would greatly appreciate any newbie advice that anyone has to offer before I open the monitor up and start poking around (ginerly, for fear of dying). My first step was naturally to google 'Amdek +"Color-I"' and 'Amdek +"Color-I" +manual', which unfortnately hasn't been at all useful. No service manuals to be found. Other pointers would be very welcome! I know that poking around CRTs has given a lot of electronics hobbyists a good, non-lethal education. I'm hoping to follow in those footsteps. -Seth From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 14 22:33:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:33:37 -0500 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <4B270629.1040301@hawkmountain.net> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> <4B270629.1040301@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <5FA9D641-7F16-42C5-BDF1-72403B661609@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> Side note: I remember reading somewhere that the old PortMaster >> 2e's could be used as a "reverse terminal server" (that is, telnet >> into the box and connect to a particular serial port for console >> access) with some optional software. Anybody done that? >> Replies can be off-list, I'm not sure how relevant this is.. other >> than, it would be handy to use to provide access to some old >> serial-driven gear. > > I don't recall any optional software to do this.... I setup PM2Es > so that telnet to a > specific port would connect me to a specific serial port. Even > added logins that > would connect.... so telnet to the pm2e, login as a particular user/ > password and > hit a specific port. > > There was software that you could load on SunOS (for instance) that > would make > the serial ports available as if they were 'local' to the > workstation.... but I never > remember encountering any special PM2E software that you put on the > PM2E > itself. This is correct...in.pmd was to make PM2E ports appear as /dev nodes on SunOS machines. There was no additional software to install on the terminal server itself. I don't think there were any additional or optional packages that got installed on the PM2E, just the normal firmware load, and that supported "reverse mode" out of the box. The Portmasters were nice little boxes. I deployed dozens upon dozens of them in the early 1990s to create huge dialin modem pools. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Dec 14 22:44:00 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:44:00 +0000 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair In-Reply-To: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:22:41AM +0000, Seth Morabito wrote: > My first step was naturally to google 'Amdek +"Color-I"' and > 'Amdek +"Color-I" +manual', which unfortnately hasn't been at all useful. No > service manuals to be found. Other pointers would be very welcome! Just a quick follow-up to my own post. I took the cover off and measured the voltages across the capacitors to make sure they were discharged (they are), and looked at the fuses. No fuses are blown. Too bad, that would have been a wonderfully easy fix. Happily, the schematic is silkscreened onto the solder side of the PCB in its entirety, with major functional blocks all nicely commented and delimited for clarity. I knew they used to do this for televisions, but I'd forgotten that there was ever a time that they did this for computer hardware. It's almost as if they were planning on people wanting to repair it. What a concept. -Seth From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 10 11:22:14 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:22:14 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> You can do it *without* an alignment pack. The only problem is that you'll probably have problems interchanging packs between drives. The alignment pack has it's tracks written to tight nominal tolerances so that when you align a drive using that pack, you'll be able to read/write packs written on other drives. If you align the heads by using some random pack you'll likely be out a bit. How much will depend upon how close the pack you used is to "nominal". BTW you can always tell an alignment pack. They're red (vs white for a normal pack). They're hard to miss. TTFN - Guy On Dec 10, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I took a "new" RK05 disk drive from my heap. After defoaming I powered it up. I soon realized that the position sensor's glass had fallen off. Can be glued back in place easily. But after that I'll most probably have a misaligned RK05. > > The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load the alignment pack and... > -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( > > Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I could use? > > Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working drives and formatted disks handy. > > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 14 23:07:31 2009 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold Message-ID: <624853.77243.qm@web111501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Speaking of digital tube equipment, while I'm not ready to get rid of this > stuff myself just yet, I'd like to ask whether others (the nearer the better) > might have any interest in tube-based digital frequency counters and such; > e.g: > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP521C/index.html > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524B/index.html > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524C/index.html > > No, they're not computers (unless one really wants to stretch the definition), > they are boat anchors and of limited to no practical use, but they are > manageable (barely) examples of vacuum-tube-based digital equipment. Beautiful works of engineering art that look like they're new out of the box. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 10 11:22:14 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:22:14 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> You can do it *without* an alignment pack. The only problem is that you'll probably have problems interchanging packs between drives. The alignment pack has it's tracks written to tight nominal tolerances so that when you align a drive using that pack, you'll be able to read/write packs written on other drives. If you align the heads by using some random pack you'll likely be out a bit. How much will depend upon how close the pack you used is to "nominal". BTW you can always tell an alignment pack. They're red (vs white for a normal pack). They're hard to miss. TTFN - Guy On Dec 10, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I took a "new" RK05 disk drive from my heap. After defoaming I powered it up. I soon realized that the position sensor's glass had fallen off. Can be glued back in place easily. But after that I'll most probably have a misaligned RK05. > > The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load the alignment pack and... > -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( > > Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I could use? > > Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working drives and formatted disks handy. > > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 23:21:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:21:42 -0800 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair In-Reply-To: <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com>, <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4B26AC66.19094.297C422@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2009 at 4:44, Seth Morabito wrote: > Happily, the schematic is silkscreened onto the solder side of the PCB > in its entirety, with major functional blocks all nicely commented and > delimited for clarity. I knew they used to do this for televisions, > but I'd forgotten that there was ever a time that they did this for > computer hardware. It's almost as if they were planning on people > wanting to repair it. What a concept. There was a time when one could expect to encounter a schematic for a radio or TV printed on a sheet of paper glued to the inside of the cabinet or some part of the chassis. (Sigh--"chassis" and "cabinet" are two words you don't often hear today in connection with electronics). --Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 23:28:45 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:28:45 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> this says they have one for sale http://www.com-com.co.uk/HP/parts/RK05K.ihtml?pp=1~source=com-com.co.uk On 12/10/09, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > You can do it *without* an alignment pack. The only problem is that you'll > probably have problems interchanging packs between drives. The alignment > pack has it's tracks written to tight nominal tolerances so that when you > align a drive using that pack, you'll be able to read/write packs written on > other drives. > > If you align the heads by using some random pack you'll likely be out a > bit. How much will depend upon how close the pack you used is to "nominal". > > BTW you can always tell an alignment pack. They're red (vs white for a > normal pack). They're hard to miss. > > TTFN - Guy > > On Dec 10, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > > > I took a "new" RK05 disk drive from my heap. After defoaming I powered it > up. I soon realized that the position sensor's glass had fallen off. Can be > glued back in place easily. But after that I'll most probably have a > misaligned RK05. > > > > The RK05 manual tells me how easy it is to realign the heads: Just load > the alignment pack and... > > -- But I don't have an alignment pack :-( > > > > Does anybody (best would be in Europe) have an RK05 alignment pack I > could use? > > > > Is there a known trick to do it without alignment pack? I have working > drives and formatted disks handy. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Philipp > > > > > > -- > > http://www.hachti.de > > > > From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Dec 15 00:05:12 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:05:12 +0000 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair - nevermind! In-Reply-To: <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20091215060512.GA3719@mail.loomcom.com> Sigh. And my second (and final) followup, this time with very red face. No electronic repair was needed. Yes, it was a gummed up power knob. Spritz with contact cleaner, push in and out a few times, and it's good as new. Carry on about your business while I hide under a rock. -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 00:12:18 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair - nevermind! In-Reply-To: <20091215060512.GA3719@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> <20091215060512.GA3719@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20091214221020.K45177@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > Sigh. And my second (and final) followup, this time with very red face. > No electronic repair was needed. Yes, it was a gummed up power knob. Spritz > with contact cleaner, push in and out a few times, and it's good as new. Carry > on about your business while I hide under a rock. You figured out what was wrong, and you fixed it. I see no reason for shame - some repairs are easier than some others. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 15 01:12:57 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:12:57 -0800 Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold References: <624853.77243.qm@web111501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B2736FA.28D71E18@cs.ubc.ca> William Blair wrote: > > > Speaking of digital tube equipment, while I'm not ready to get rid of this > > stuff myself just yet, I'd like to ask whether others (the nearer the better) > > might have any interest in tube-based digital frequency counters and such; > > e.g: > > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP521C/index.html > > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524B/index.html > > http://people.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP524C/index.html > > > > No, they're not computers (unless one really wants to stretch the definition), > > they are boat anchors and of limited to no practical use, but they are > > manageable (barely) examples of vacuum-tube-based digital equipment. > > Beautiful works of engineering art that look like they're new out of the box. Indeed, which is one reason it can be so difficult to see the stuff scrapped. Obviously, I can't claim any contribution to the beauty-of-the-engineering-art aspect for these items ... and I don't want to admit to how many OCD hours went into making them look new-out-of-the-box. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 15 01:43:18 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 01:43:18 -0600 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <1b8901ca7d03$b4a8b690$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <1b8901ca7d03$b4a8b690$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B273E16.20505@oldskool.org> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I've yet to se a DVD (as opposed to a DVD-ROM, which is not useable on >> DVD player normally) about the technical side of classic computing. > > Jim? :oD No market for that (yet). You have to glean a lot of info from a lot of different documentaries. The Machine That Changed The World was pretty fascinating, though. Shame there's no proper release of that for sale. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 14 14:48:03 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:48:03 -0800 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <1b8801ca7d03$b33e5120$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <1b8801ca7d03$b33e5120$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B26A483.4070407@jwsss.com> It is a 6 pin IDP connector. Rectangular. One can make up a tail to get to it by using a 6 pin IDP and a short ribbon cable. Jim Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> > > Maybe if someone comes up with the protocol (or some reference for > the original mouse, like...schematics :oD) I can help in doing > something like a PS-2 converter :) > > From chrise at pobox.com Mon Dec 14 18:10:45 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:10:45 -0600 Subject: DEC Server 200/MC In-Reply-To: <8CC4AC9229654A3-2910-4151@webmail-d081.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC4AC9229654A3-2910-4151@webmail-d081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20091215001045.GG2898@n0jcf.net> On Monday (12/14/2009 at 06:38AM -0500), tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > The Lantronix ETS series is very compact, and easy to set up. > It speaks LAT as well as TCP/IP. > The drawback is that when you telnet IN to the Lantronix, it displays > a rather annoying welcome message that I don't believe you can disable. > (At least that was my experience.) On the Lantronix, you can telnet directly to a port for outbound service (if the port is configured for that) by telnet'ing to port: 2000 + port# for "cooked" terminal sessions 3000 + port# for raw terminal sessions so, if you have your device on port 2, telnet ets 3002 will get you to port 2 of the ETS in raw, unmolested character mode. I use many ETS8 and ETS16 around here for connecting all sorts of serial gadgets and vintage machines with RS232 consoles. If you are not so concerned about having a vintage terminal server for this application and only need a single port, you might consider one of these: SitePlayer Telnet http://www.netmedia.com/siteplayer/telnet/index.html I also use these for connecting various embedded system gadgets and they are very easy to configure with a web based UI and are a pretty low cost single port device server. Same deal for accessing the port, you telnet to the IP address and configurable port of the device server and you get connected to the serial port on the backside. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 14 19:50:46 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:50:46 -0800 Subject: Musa auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B26EB76.3000203@jwsss.com> make sure the rest of you don't hire the auctioneer, if no one here knew and was invited. Shame to hear about it almost after the fact. William Donzelli wrote: > I just heard about this an hour ago. The estate of John Musa (software > engineering old timer) is having a big auction TONIGHT (as in right > now). A friend is there, and he says that their are about 50 box lots > of interesting computer docs. > > I suppose I will find out what happens. > > Any reports from the field? Did any of us go? > > -- > Will > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 15 02:14:38 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:14:38 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <4B26EB76.3000203@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hey! I'm looking at doing some single sided pcb's. From what I can tell, if I want the pre-sensitized board to expose in a reasonable amount of time, I am going to need to make a UV box to expose it with. I could apparently use a regular fluorescent bulb but it will take 30-50 minutes to be ready for developing.... And with cats, dogs and teenagers (and a friends 3 year old many days) that is way too long to assume something is going to be left without being bumped or knocked over :) So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? At a reasonable price? On 12/14/09 5:50 PM, "jim s" wrote: > make sure the rest of you don't hire the auctioneer, if no one here knew > and was invited. Shame to hear about it almost after the fact. > > William Donzelli wrote: >> I just heard about this an hour ago. The estate of John Musa (software >> engineering old timer) is having a big auction TONIGHT (as in right >> now). A friend is there, and he says that their are about 50 box lots >> of interesting computer docs. >> >> I suppose I will find out what happens. >> >> Any reports from the field? Did any of us go? >> >> -- >> Will >> >> >> > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Dec 15 02:17:46 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:17:46 -0000 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> Message-ID: <1A34067283074C2788297784639A4B27@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Hi Well there has been a considerable amount of interest on this one. I need to clarify one or two things. 1. Being a collector of DEC equipment I was trying to do it with an all DEC line up. 2. I only have two DEC Servers both 200/MC. I can down load the program to them from my VAX with no problems. 3. It appears that later models of DEC Server do support Telnet. (Which ones and has anybody in the UK got a spare one?) 4. I have already done it but I used a windows internet modem simulator. I have loads of VAX's I wonder if it's possible to do Telnet in, serial RS232 with modem emulation (Assert DCD when connected) out on a VAX. 5. There is a non-DEC plan B. (Two Multi-modems back to back on their leased line ports.) Regards Rod Smallwood ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS EDI Consulting Ltd Phone 0118 971 4436 Email rodsmallwood at btconnect.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of feedle Sent: 14 December 2009 18:18 To: General at looneymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com; Discussion at looneymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Like Pete said, a MicroAnnex will do what you want. Personally, I > prefer Xyplex 1600-series boxes, because I have a bunch of them, and > they are what we have used at work bascially forever. > > Ethan, if you would like one of my 16-port Xyplex 1600s, send me a note > off-list. > > Pat > Side note: I remember reading somewhere that the old PortMaster 2e's could be used as a "reverse terminal server" (that is, telnet into the box and connect to a particular serial port for console access) with some optional software. Anybody done that? Replies can be off-list, I'm not sure how relevant this is.. other than, it would be handy to use to provide access to some old serial-driven gear. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 15 02:35:58 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:35:58 -0800 Subject: UV light question. References: Message-ID: <4B274A6F.92F717E1@cs.ubc.ca> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > Hey! I'm looking at doing some single sided pcb's. From what I can tell, if > I want the pre-sensitized board to expose in a reasonable amount of time, I > am going to need to make a UV box to expose it with. I could apparently use > a regular fluorescent bulb but it will take 30-50 minutes to be ready for > developing.... And with cats, dogs and teenagers (and a friends 3 year old > many days) that is way too long to assume something is going to be left > without being bumped or knocked over :) > > So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? At a > reasonable price? More in the vein of humour than helpfulness, and I don't know about the tech specs and how photo-resists may have changed, but in the 70's I used my Mom's otherwise-neglected UV sun-tanning lamp for this purpose. I think it was on the order of a few minutes exposure time, but that's a pretty vague recollection. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 04:48:12 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:48:12 -0300 Subject: Amiga Demo's References: <1b8901ca7d03$b4a8b690$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B273E16.20505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1e1401ca7d74$24410640$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >>> I've yet to se a DVD (as opposed to a DVD-ROM, which is not useable on >>> DVD player normally) about the technical side of classic computing. >> Jim? :oD > No market for that (yet). You have to glean a lot of info from a lot of > different documentaries. > The Machine That Changed The World was pretty fascinating, though. Shame > there's no proper release of that for sale. Well...at least I tried :o) But it would be wonderfull, a DVD or a serie of DVDs telling the story of ancient computer... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 04:49:22 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:49:22 -0300 Subject: UV light question. References: Message-ID: <1e3901ca7d74$7f64a0e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Hey! I'm looking at doing some single sided pcb's. From what I can tell, > if > I want the pre-sensitized board to expose in a reasonable amount of time, > I > am going to need to make a UV box to expose it with. I could apparently > use > a regular fluorescent bulb but it will take 30-50 minutes to be ready for > developing.... And with cats, dogs and teenagers (and a friends 3 year > old > many days) that is way too long to assume something is going to be left > without being bumped or knocked over :) > So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? At a > reasonable price? Using old scanners as lightboxes is an old trick :) And it keeps your board and drawing aligned :) From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Dec 15 04:36:54 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:36:54 -0500 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) Message-ID: <8CC4B89A751D936-14F8-280F3@webmail-m047.sysops.aol.com> On Tuesday December 15th, Rod Smallwood wrote: 4. I have already done it but I used a windows internet modem simulator. I have loads of VAX's I wonder if it's possible to do Telnet in, serial RS232 with modem emulation (Assert DCD when connected) out on a VAX. I had both the Lantronix and Xyplex terminal servers (mentioned earlier) working as follows: I linked them to the serial ports of a communication multiplexor on a PDP-11. When someone TELNET'ed in to the IP address of the terminal server, they were automatically connected round-robin style to the next available serial port. This raised one of the signal lines high, which the operating system detected, and responded with the login prompt. Likewise, when the user logged out, their TELNET session disconnected automatically. T From hachti at hachti.de Tue Dec 15 06:00:14 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:00:14 +0100 Subject: rare stuff available In-Reply-To: <2188CEF9-B7B0-4DA8-8515-7A9C4958C39D@neurotica.com> References: <4B25E2B8.5040003@bluewin.ch> <5DAE03FE-29BC-4877-8C7D-5FA8F6044D9E@neurotica.com> <4B265F5A.2090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <2188CEF9-B7B0-4DA8-8515-7A9C4958C39D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B277A4E.30509@hachti.de> >> Have you just binaries, or source with that? > > I'm pretty sure I still have the sources on paper tape, but this is a > binary distribution if memory serves. OS/8 V3D sources are around on the net. As TU56 images. I used some of them. -- Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 15 06:49:25 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:49:25 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle Message-ID: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> Contact the person below ... >To: jfoust at threedee.com >From: Edwina Williams >Subject: Old Computer to recycle >Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:43:20 -0500 > >Dear Jeff, > >I have a Maxum 286 turbo computer, which was purchased at 47th Street >Photo in New York in the 1980's. I believe that Maxum was a 47th >Street Photo brand. It comes with a Maxum Enhanced keyboard and Amdek >Video 310A monitor, which has the amber letters. Word Perfect for IBM >is installed and some other programs. There is also an Epson LG 500 >printer, which takes the paper with holes and also single sheets. > >I probably have some of the literature too. > >Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at >some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to >get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a >386. > >The computer goes right on, powers up, and works perfectly. It also >works perfectly with the printer. This old computer was easier to >write on, and I think I did better writing on it, than the Macbook >Pro that I use now. > >I hate throwing things out that still work, but these have to go. Are >you interested, or do you know anyone who may be? > >Sincerely, > >Edwina Williams From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Dec 15 08:13:42 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:13:42 -0600 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I just received a trs-80 model II over the weekend :-) I have never used a model II before. It looks like there is some kind of problem...here are the symptoms: When I turn it on, the screen is all inverse exclamation points "!". It says "INSEST!DISKEUTE" When I close the diskette door, the exclamation points turn non-inverse but still cover the screen. It when boots (in this case I am booting a cpm disk). The letters seem jumbled up...after booting, I see: "CQ/MQ!for!tss-81 MOEM II 63k!Version!2/25A Copyrigit!(c)!1981 Migecoat Associaues" And it goes to a command prompt. The rest of the screen is still filled with exclamation points. The system does respond as I type things, but letters are garbled. Any ideas? Does this sound like some bad memory? How can I diagnose this? Thanks! -Bob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Dec 15 08:34:13 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <671005.80831.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Bob Brown wrote: > When I turn it on, the screen is all inverse exclamation > points "!". > It says "INSEST!DISKEUTE" > When I close the diskette door, the exclamation points turn > non-inverse > but still cover the screen. > It when boots (in this case I am booting a cpm disk). > The letters seem jumbled up...after booting, I see: > "CQ/MQ!for!tss-81 MOEM II > 63k!Version!2/25A > Copyrigit!(c)!1981 Migecoat Associaues" > > And it goes to a command prompt. > The rest of the screen is still filled with exclamation > points. > The system does respond as I type things, but letters are > garbled. > > Any ideas? Does this sound like some bad > memory? How can I diagnose > this? It's a bad 2114 RAM chip on the video/keyboard interface board. There are four 2114's on that board, used for video RAM, and one of them has failed. I forget if they're in sockets or not... -Ian From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 15 08:43:05 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:43:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <315932.3406.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and > 440 nm ?? At a > reasonable price? Some time back, I got one for PC boards and EPROM erasing. I got a germicidal tube from an electrical supply house. (I don't know if they still do, but they used to have UV fixtures in commercial laundry equipment to kill any germs on the clothes.) BLS From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Dec 15 08:48:19 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:48:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <671005.80831.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <671005.80831.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Any ideas? Does this sound like some bad >> memory? How can I diagnose >> this? > > It's a bad 2114 RAM chip on the video/keyboard interface board. There > are four 2114's on that board, used for video RAM, and one of them has > failed. I forget if they're in sockets or not... ... and when you get that fixed, there's an excellent chance that the foam pads in the keyboard have disintegrated. My Model II had only 5 working keys when I got it, but I was able to rebuild the keyboard with the help of this article: http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Dec 15 09:29:43 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:29:43 -0600 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <671005.80831.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <671005.80831.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E06264825@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> How do I identify which board is the video/keyboard interface board? (I see 4 boards in the card cage)? How do I identify which chip has failed? Where do I get replacements? Thanks! -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:34 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: trs-80 model II trouble --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Bob Brown wrote: > When I turn it on, the screen is all inverse exclamation > points "!". > It says "INSEST!DISKEUTE" > When I close the diskette door, the exclamation points turn > non-inverse > but still cover the screen. > It when boots (in this case I am booting a cpm disk). > The letters seem jumbled up...after booting, I see: > "CQ/MQ!for!tss-81 MOEM II > 63k!Version!2/25A > Copyrigit!(c)!1981 Migecoat Associaues" > > And it goes to a command prompt. > The rest of the screen is still filled with exclamation > points. > The system does respond as I type things, but letters are > garbled. > > Any ideas? Does this sound like some bad > memory? How can I diagnose > this? It's a bad 2114 RAM chip on the video/keyboard interface board. There are four 2114's on that board, used for video RAM, and one of them has failed. I forget if they're in sockets or not... -Ian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 10:43:39 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:43:39 -0300 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu><671005.80831.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E06264825@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> How do I identify which board is the video/keyboard interface board? (I see 4 boards in the card cage)? How do I identify which chip has failed? Where do I get replacements? ======== Use the force :) You know that a byte has 8 bit. You know that a space (chr 32) is 00100000 in binary You know that a exclamation point (chr 33) is 00100001 in binary You know that in the place of a space, there is a ! on the screen So, you know that the least significant bit, or D0 line, is stuck in "1" Get the schematic and see which 2114 is connected to the A0 line. Change it, and you're set :o) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Dec 15 09:50:07 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E06264825@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <158131.69343.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Bob Brown wrote: > How do I identify which board is the > video/keyboard interface board? (I > see 4 boards in the card cage)? > How do I identify which chip has failed? > Where do I get replacements? > Thanks! > -Bob According to the manual, the video board should be in the 4th slot from the power supply. The back of the board has the numbers 8709048. Assuming that the documentation here is correct, the video RAMs should be in sockets, and are U19-22. They are 2114's. Swap the chips around in the sockets and see if you can get the symptom to change at all - you should be able to get the messed up sections of the screen to change. If so, then one is definitely your culprit. As for obtaining replacement parts, I know that Unicorn Electronics has 2114's (www.unicornelectronics.com, look under "Static RAMs") -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Dec 15 09:55:28 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:55:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Use the force :) > > You know that a byte has 8 bit. > You know that a space (chr 32) is > 00100000 in binary > You know that a exclamation point (chr > 33) is 00100001 in binary > You know that in the place of a space, > there is a ! on the screen > So, you know that the least significant > bit, or D0 line, is stuck in "1" > > Get the schematic and see which 2114 is > connected to the A0 line. Change it, and you're set :o) Don't you mean, D0 line? According to the schematics, both U21 and U22 are on the D0 line. One thing I just thought of - is the ENTIRE screen affected, or just half of it? If one chip had a stuck line, it should only mess up half the screen. In any event, the chips should be socketed, so doing a couple quick swaps should narrow it down quickly. -Ian From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Dec 15 10:03:47 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:03:47 -0600 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> The entire screen is having the trouble. (it is odd that when it asks me to mount the disk, the !'s are inverse...as soon as I put the disk in, they become normal-video !'s. Also, the oddly swapped around characters... How easy is it to pull those chips and swap them around? Looking at the web page, do I need just plain 2114's? (I see several variations of them including different speeds and low-power etc)? (I've never swapped chips before..hence the questions). Thanks. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:55 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: trs-80 model II trouble --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Use the force :) > > You know that a byte has 8 bit. > You know that a space (chr 32) is > 00100000 in binary > You know that a exclamation point (chr > 33) is 00100001 in binary > You know that in the place of a space, > there is a ! on the screen > So, you know that the least significant > bit, or D0 line, is stuck in "1" > > Get the schematic and see which 2114 is > connected to the A0 line. Change it, and you're set :o) Don't you mean, D0 line? According to the schematics, both U21 and U22 are on the D0 line. One thing I just thought of - is the ENTIRE screen affected, or just half of it? If one chip had a stuck line, it should only mess up half the screen. In any event, the chips should be socketed, so doing a couple quick swaps should narrow it down quickly. -Ian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 11:07:45 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:07:45 -0300 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble References: <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208401ca7da9$60960570$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Don't you mean, D0 line? UGH! :oO My bad, sorry :oO (Repeating to my friends: "I must engage BRAIN before engaging HANDS" :oP) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Dec 15 10:19:38 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <807084.5275.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Bob Brown wrote: > The entire screen is having the > trouble. Hmm. Ok. > (it is odd that when it asks me to mount the disk, the !'s > are > inverse...as soon as I put the disk in, they become > normal-video !'s. That's supposed to happen. OK, well, without the !'s, that is. It's supposed to go to a white screen asking for the disk. > How easy is it to pull those chips and swap them around? Extremely, extremely easy. Just use a tiny flat blade screwdriver to gently lever them up and out of their sockets. Note the direction - that the chips are installed in, it's important they stay oriented the same way around. Actually, before you try swapping chips around, just pull out the video board and firmly press down on all the socketed chips, to seat them down into their sockets - sometimes things come loose. If that doesn't do anything, then swap the RAM chips around - swap U21 and U22 with U19 and U20. > Looking at the web page, do I need just plain 2114's? > (I see several > variations of them including different speeds and low-power > etc)? Should be. Don't know the speed on the ones used in the Model II, but I seriously doubt it's anything different than normal ones. -Ian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 10:23:38 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:23:38 -0600 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912150823h22a15cf5n36b2a3248d413eb1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > Also, the oddly swapped around characters... > The space was swapped for a ! because of the stuck bit. So any character that has a 0 in that bit position will be mapped to the character with a 1 in that position, but all the other bits the same. The end result is that half of the characters will be wrong. All the characters with a 1 in that position will be correct. I guess a stopped clock is right twice a day. :-) > How easy is it to pull those chips and swap them around? > If they're dips, it's easy. Just don't bend the pins when you put them back in a socket. There's special tools for pulling them out, but you can use a small flat head screwdriver if you're careful. Socketed dip chips have a habit of slowly walking out of the sockets from years of heat expansion and contraction when the machine is switched on and off. It's possible that reseating the chips (just pushing them back into the sockets) will fix the problem. But if they've walked out a bit, it's easier to remove them since a flat screwdriver will fit between the chip and the socket. If they're all the way in, i've used an exacto knife to get between the chip and socket before. Just don't break off the blade. Try to get the chip to come out straight, that is work both ends of the chip. Otherwise, the pins will bend when you take it out. Oh, and don't put them in backwards or they'll fry. They'll get hot enough to burn you. So note the orientation before taking them out. Also, I've received new chips (back when I routinely installed cache chips on 486 motherboards) where the pins sort of splayed out a bit. This made them not line up with the sockets quite right. You may need to bend them so that they're slightly more upright making them line up with the holes in the socket. This is easier than it sounds. brian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 15 11:03:49 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:03:49 +0000 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <158131.69343.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <158131.69343.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B27C175.2010306@philpem.me.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > As for obtaining replacement parts, I know that Unicorn Electronics has 2114's (www.unicornelectronics.com, look under "Static RAMs") I've got a box full of the little buggers... Without even getting the box out, I know I've got 25x NEC uPD2114LC-1, and 16x Intel P2114AL-2. I've also got Rockwell, Synertek, Motorola and NatSemi parts in -1 thru -4 speed grades. Then there's the other box of Signetics 82S23 and 82S129 fuse PROMs... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 11:27:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:27:18 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4B275676.7060.17540B@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2009 at 6:49, John Foust wrote: > Contact the person below ... It'd be useful to know where these things are located before pestering the offerer with email! Thanks, --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 11:39:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:39:29 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: References: <4B26EB76.3000203@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: <4B275951.6821.227CAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2009 at 0:14, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? > At a reasonable price? Since this is long-wave UV (UVA) , you don't need the germicidal lamps, which are made to produce light at about 250 nm. An old consumer "sunlamp" for tanning or a low-pressure mercury vapor outdoor luminaire are suitable choices. Or you can borrow a metal halide "grow light" from your friendly local pot farmer. Sunlight also works well, if you get the stuff this time of year (he said, peering out the window at the dark gray sky). --Chuck From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 15 11:59:39 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:59:39 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Honeywell-Bull HD120 diskdrive. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B27CE8B.3030305@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: > Is this a custom drive for this machine, or a more standard one. Very few > manufacturers (espeicailly at that time) made their own hard disk > It is not a custom drive, but a very uncommon one. They were used on Bull systems, and on some PDP-11 systems made by Baydel. I have not seen them mentioned anywhere else. They did not have a good reputation. And of course the ETH could never have developed a custom diskdrive, the Lilith itself was already a tour de force. There were very few people involved in the actual hardware design. >> Headmovement is of course controlled by the only ASIC, thus pure >> unobtainium, that is inside the machine. >> How much documentation do you have on the operation of the drive? I have scanned the full documentation, Al put it on bitsavers. It is a somewhat ST506 like interface. > Is is > possible to make a replacement for this ASIC (is it digital only, or does > it, as I susepct, contain the analogue servo circuitry). > > I assume you've checked the obvious -- power rails and such. These are OK. > I would also > guess the power amplifier to drive the positioner is not in the ASIC. > That is much more likely to fail than a low-poerr-ish ASIC. I asusme > you've checked that too. > Not yet. Will do of course, but if can get a replacement drive for a few 100 Euro I could save loads of debugging time. I do not mind debugging, but would prefer to do it when i have some more time. Jos From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Dec 15 12:14:24 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:14:24 -0500 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair Message-ID: <2c652611$4143ce67$14a80be2$@com> > > > My until-very-recently-working Amdek Color-I RGB Monitor (November 1983) has > given up the ghost. It was working perfectly the last time I powered it up, but > now it doesn't turn on. > > > I know that poking around CRTs has given a lot of electronics hobbyists a good, > non-lethal education. I'm hoping to follow in those footsteps. > > -Seth > Seth, I have also had my share of the closer to lethal education as well :-) Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 12:19:00 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:19:00 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <807084.5275.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>, <807084.5275.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:19:38 -0800 > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > Subject: RE: trs-80 model II trouble > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > --- On Tue, 12/15/09, Bob Brown wrote: > > > The entire screen is having the > > trouble. > > Hmm. Ok. > Hi It could still be a single RAM failing. If it is a stuck output line, it could over ride the others output. RAM failure is still the most likely. Swapping the RAMs for the high and low nibbles would tell which it is. If they are socketed, they should be able to be removed by carefully prying them up with a small screw driver. I do this by doing a little bit on each end. If you have two screw drivers it is a little faster. Of course, they do have special tools and I think I even have one, someplace in one of my tool boxes or drawers. Just don't pry the socket off the board or you'll need a soldering iron as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 12:30:46 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:30:46 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912150823h22a15cf5n36b2a3248d413eb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre>, <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>, <6dbe3c380912150823h22a15cf5n36b2a3248d413eb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: brianlanning at gmail.com ---snip--- > Socketed dip chips have a habit of slowly walking out of the sockets from > years of heat expansion and contraction when the machine is switched on and > off. ---snip--- Hi I found that, contrary to what one might think, when the pins are bent outward, as would be for auto insertion, they tend to work out over time. I found that if the leads are straight they stay in well. This walking out seems to happen, regardless of the type of socket used. If the pins are not perpendicular to the package. bend them straight before inserting them. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 12:33:06 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:33:06 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <1e3901ca7d74$7f64a0e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <1e3901ca7d74$7f64a0e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com ---snip--- > > Using old scanners as lightboxes is an old trick :) And it keeps your > board and drawing aligned :) > How many passes through the scanner does it take? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 12:58:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:58:19 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>, <807084.5275.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4B276BCB.23249.6AA92D@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2009 at 10:19, dwight elvey wrote: > If they are socketed, they should be able to be removed > by carefully prying them up with a small screw driver. I > do this by doing a little bit on each end. If you have two > screw drivers it is a little faster. Of course, they do have > special tools and I think I even have one, someplace > in one of my tool boxes or drawers. A simple tool can be made out of a scrap PC filler bracket or other suitable sheet metal. Bend a strip of metal somewhat narrower than the space between the pins on the DIP to form an "L" with the horizontal leg as long as the IC that you're trying to remove and the vertical part as long as is convenient to hold onto. Slip the horizontal leg between the DIP and the socket and rock the vertical part gently from side to side until the IC pops free of the socket. For close quarters, the design can be modified to form a pair of "tongs" with only a short horizontal section on each leg of the tongs. Use the same rocking motion to remove the IC. Usually, no IC pins will be bent in the process. --Chuck From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 15 13:06:15 2009 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:06:15 +0100 Subject: IBM RT Mouse Was: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B27DE27.6000001@xs4all.nl> > Since I lack a mouse for mine, can I put in a plea that whoever does > adopt this system consider selling / trading me the mouse? 10 years ago > IBM told me the 6150 mouse was no longer available, but there was a > replacement, for which quoted me 150 pounds. They wouldn't tell me the > part number of the replacement, but I am pretty sure it was just a > Logitech PC mouse and an adaptor to plug it into the 6150. I tried > making my own connector (from a Compaq laptop power supply connector, > iirc), but had little success. > The IBM RT mouse I have (Part No. OOF2383) is definitly a protocol mouse, as it has a HD63A01XOF processor for two encoders and two buttons (http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/rt_mouse.JPG). I can check out the wiring and protocol (if not propietary) later. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 13:57:22 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:57:22 -0300 Subject: UV light question. References: , <1e3901ca7d74$7f64a0e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <21ec01ca7dc2$15007780$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Using old scanners as lightboxes is an old trick :) And it keeps your > board and drawing aligned :) >How many passes through the scanner does it take? Many, but if you take out the scanner mechanics and install some reflective paper and a pair of UV lamps, it gives a great lightbox :) From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 13:26:36 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:26:36 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: References: <4B26EB76.3000203@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90912151126n5ff986dehb52dfca991ed146b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? ?At a > reasonable price? What's a reasonable price? Any of these what you want? http://www.topbulb.com/find/prod_list.asp_Q_intSubCategory_E_796 (the shipping would close to the price of the bulb) From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 15 13:29:32 2009 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:29:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: tube digital interest / was Re: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <412589.89323.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > William Blair wrote: > > > > Beautiful works of engineering art that look like > they're new out of the box. > > Indeed, which is one reason it can be so difficult to see > the stuff scrapped. > > Obviously, I can't claim any contribution to the beauty-of-the- > engineering-art aspect for these items ... and I don't want to > admit to how many OCD hours went into making them look > new-out-of-the-box. Great job on that front. Wouldn't HP like to have such gems to display, at least in a glass case in a lobby somewhere? If I had a museum (and it would definitely hold items like those), I'd take them in a heartbeat. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:34:28 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:34:28 -0300 Subject: IBM RT Mouse Was: IBM RT-PC available References: <4B27DE27.6000001@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <225701ca7dc6$b8fceae0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > The IBM RT mouse I have (Part No. OOF2383) is definitly a protocol > mouse, as it has a HD63A01XOF processor for two encoders and two buttons > (http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/rt_mouse.JPG). > I can check out the wiring and protocol (if not propietary) later. Interesting how BIG is the processor used! :oO I'm amazed! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:00:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:00:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair In-Reply-To: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at Dec 15, 9 04:22:41 am Message-ID: > > My until-very-recently-working Amdek Color-I RGB Monitor (November 1983) has > given up the ghost. It was working perfectly the last time I powered it up, but > now it doesn't turn on. No noise, no hum, no glow, nothing, it's just silent, > as if it died in its sleep. (It's worth noting that it was left un-plugged > between the last time I used it and now, so I don't think it was a surge). > > I'm embarrassed to admit this to the many old veterans on this list, but while I am not sure why you're ashamed. IMHO realising that you don't know something (nobody can know everything!), and asking for advice is a very sensible thing to do. Not something to be ashamed of. > I have a good history of working with digital electronics, CRT repair is well > outside my scope of experience. Still, I'd really like to fix this guy and get > it working again, so I would greatly appreciate any newbie advice that anyone > has to offer before I open the monitor up and start poking around (ginerly, for > fear of dying). My first step was naturally to google 'Amdek +"Color-I"' and The hazards are overrated!. The most dangerous voltages in most monitors [1][ are the mains and things derrived directly from it (the 350V DC on the primary side of an SMPUS, for example). The 25kV EHT to the CRT will give you a belt, but is less likely to kill you (due to the high source impdedance, it can't supply much current). It's also well insulated. The main danger, actually, is that a shock will make you jump and then break the CRT or something. [1] The exception is that a few monitors, a very few monitors, mostlu vector displ;ays (the DEC VR14 is one such) get the EHT using a step-up transofrmer from the mains (rather than from the flyback transformer). This sort of EHT supply has a fairly low impedance and can be lethal. Lethal as in 'Touch it and you won't feel anything. Ever again'. Never work with botjh hands -- current flow hand-to-hand is the most dangerous. Most old-timers keep their left hand in their pocket. And always assume every point is live until you've proved it isn't. If it's as dead as you say it is, the problem is probably in the PSU area. The first thing to do is to work out if it is an SMPUS (likely) or if there's a mains-frequency transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:02:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:02:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair In-Reply-To: <20091215044400.GB2971@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at Dec 15, 9 04:44:00 am Message-ID: > I took the cover off and measured the voltages across the capacitors to make > sure they were discharged (they are), and looked at the fuses. No fuses are > blown. Too bad, that would have been a wonderfully easy fix. Not always. A fuse rarely blows for no reason, so if you find a blown fuse most of the time there's something else failed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 12:42:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:42:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 14, 9 03:52:51 pm Message-ID: > > Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service manual > > but full listing of the ROM :oD > > I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_ > detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the > firmware. > > It's not full circuit diagrams and datasheets, but from the software > side of things, much, much better than most devices. I am wondering how useful a ROM listing is without scheamtics. Surely for something like this you need to know how the firmware interacts with the hardware (what the various I/O ports do, etc), and that means (at least to me) scheamtics and documented ICs. > > It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive For which you don't get service data, presumably. The transport (motors, laser pickup, etc) is probably the section most likely to fail, and the section with the most alignment adjustments. I'd need service data on that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 12:45:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:45:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <1b8801ca7d03$b33e5120$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 14, 9 06:19:21 pm Message-ID: > > > Philip, if you think this will work on your 6150, you are welcome to try > > it. I don;'t have the mouse pad (and as I said it's optical, from the > > time when you needed a special mouse pad for optical mice), and it is, of > > course, untested.. > > Maybe if someone comes up with the protocol (or some reference for the > original mouse, like...schematics :oD) I can help in doing something like a > PS-2 converter :) I don't think schemaitcs would help in this case. I'll bet the original mouse contains a microcontroller, and the firmware of that is what defines the protocol. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 12:47:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:47:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <1b8901ca7d03$b4a8b690$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 14, 9 06:23:16 pm Message-ID: > > > I suspect such players are too expenice _new_ for me even to consider > > buying, and contain suffieicently complex custom ICs that it's a bad idea > > to buy one for which manufacuters spares are no longer available. > > They **were** expensive. Now they are almost free. No one wants > something that only plays DVDs. Is there a PAL-output version? Where would I be likely to find one in the UK? > > Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service manual > but full listing of the ROM :oD > > > And how detailed are these service manuals? Any real details on the > > internals of the chips (at least one of my old VCR service manuals > > includes transisotr-level schematics of all the ICs). > > Now you are a bit on the heavy side... :) No, you don't have the layouts > of the ICs. No, I wouldn't really expect that. But some data on the ICs (proper pinout diagrams, detailed block diagrams, etc) would be useful. > > > And there are some even more excellent books about said subjects. Books > > don't crash, don't have undocuemtned interfaces, don't needme to produce > > service mnauls for them, and so on. And I can read a book anywhere, > > including at my workbench. > > But don't have video :) I am not sure I understand that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:33:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:33:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> from "Bob Brown" at Dec 15, 9 08:13:42 am Message-ID: > > I just received a trs-80 model II over the weekend :-) > I have never used a model II before. > It looks like there is some kind of problem...here are the symptoms: > > When I turn it on, the screen is all inverse exclamation points "!". > It says "INSEST!DISKEUTE" > When I close the diskette door, the exclamation points turn non-inverse > but still cover the screen. > It when boots (in this case I am booting a cpm disk). > The letters seem jumbled up...after booting, I see: > "CQ/MQ!for!tss-81 MOEM II > 63k!Version!2/25A > Copyrigit!(c)!1981 Migecoat Associaues" > > And it goes to a command prompt. > The rest of the screen is still filled with exclamation points. > The system does respond as I type things, but letters are garbled. > > Any ideas? Does this sound like some bad memory? How can I diagnose > this? By 'inverse exlamation points' do you mean they're in inverse video? It appears there's something wrong with the video data. At least bit 0 is stuck high (that would turn a space into a '!', a 'P' into 'Q', and so on). If it's in inverse video too, that may mean bit 7 is stuck, but I don;t know the M2 that well. It could be video RAM problems (that's the most likely), or a prolem with a buffer chip or similar in the video circuitry. I don;t like lucky-dip debugging, but if you can find the video RAM (most likely to be small-ish static RAM chips), try replacing them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 12:51:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:51:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <93494232-46FA-43E6-B8F0-D1DD381AD31C@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at Dec 14, 9 06:57:42 pm Message-ID: > > > On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Amazingly I've found it. The label on the bottom says : > > IBM > > MOD 5277-1 > > The 5277 mouse is used with the 5271 PC/XT (or 5273 AT) 3270/G and > 3270/GX. I believe it may connect to the top DE9 port present on some > models of the 3270 PC keyboard interface adapter. Thanks. So presumably it's of no use for Philip's 6150. Pity ;-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:27:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:27:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <4B273E16.20505@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 15, 9 01:43:18 am Message-ID: > > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I've yet to se a DVD (as opposed to a DVD-ROM, which is not useable on > >> DVD player normally) about the technical side of classic computing. > > > > Jim? :oD > > No market for that (yet). You have to glean a lot of info from a lot of > different documentaries. Given that the TV programmes we get over here are so dumbed-down as to be useless, and the information is very unreliable, I'd rather spend the time with good books (and even better documention on the classic computers themselves). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:25:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:25:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair - nevermind! In-Reply-To: <20091215060512.GA3719@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at Dec 15, 9 06:05:12 am Message-ID: > > Sigh. And my second (and final) followup, this time with very red face. Err, why? You fixed it, didn't you? Alas not every fault requires a service manual and 'scope.. > No electronic repair was needed. Yes, it was a gummed up power knob. Spritz > with contact cleaner, push in and out a few times, and it's good as new. Carry > on about your business while I hide under a rock. Perhaps I shouldn't mention the time I spent figuring out why an SMPSU just wouldn't start up. Fuse on the PCB was fine. Switch was fine. What I took to be t he startup resistor (no schematics) tested fine. Chopper transsitor was fine. And so on. Tuens out somebody had removed the fuse from the mains plug (UK BS1363 mains plugs contain a cartridge fuse). There was no other fault... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:39:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:39:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a Honeywell-Bull HD120 diskdrive. In-Reply-To: <4B27CE8B.3030305@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 15, 9 06:59:39 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Is this a custom drive for this machine, or a more standard one. Very few > > manufacturers (espeicailly at that time) made their own hard disk > > > It is not a custom drive, but a very uncommon one. They were used on > Bull systems, and on some PDP-11 systems made by Baydel. Do you know the make and model? > I have scanned the full documentation, Al put it on bitsavers. It is a > somewhat ST506 like interface. OK, I'll take a look sometime. Does this include detailed internal documentation on the drive? > > I assume you've checked the obvious -- power rails and such. > These are OK. > > I would also > > guess the power amplifier to drive the positioner is not in the ASIC. > > That is much more likely to fail than a low-poerr-ish ASIC. I asusme > > you've checked that too. > > > Not yet. Will do of course, but if can get a replacement drive for a It's alwaays tempting to lame the one part you can't get in that it gets you out of further debugging. But quite often that's not the real fault, the fault is something you could repair. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:45:30 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:45:30 -0300 Subject: IBM RT Mouse Was: IBM RT-PC available References: <4B27DE27.6000001@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <227e01ca7dc8$2f84e450$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > The IBM RT mouse I have (Part No. OOF2383) is definitly a protocol mouse, > as it has a HD63A01XOF processor for two encoders and two buttons > (http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/rt_mouse.JPG). VERY interesting info: http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/hacks/02/index.html Resume: The RT keyboard has the same protocol of a PS/2 keyboard. I'd try to follow his instructions and connect a PS/2 mouse to the beast. Unfortunately I don't have a RT to test. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 13:56:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:56:01 -0800 Subject: IBM RT Mouse Was: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <225701ca7dc6$b8fceae0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <225701ca7dc6$b8fceae0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B277951.1649.9F7B74@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2009 at 17:34, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > The IBM RT mouse I have (Part No. OOF2383) is definitly a protocol > > mouse, as it has a HD63A01XOF processor for two encoders and two > > buttons (http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/tmp/rt_mouse.JPG). I can > > check out the wiring and protocol (if not propietary) later. > > Interesting how BIG is the processor used! :oO I'm amazed! For the time period, perhaps not so big. It's basically a 6800 with embedded peripherals (timer, UART, etc.) Not much different from today's low-end uC (PIC, 8051, AVR, etc.) I suspect that a fair number of those pins are NC in this application. If you want big, consider the same uC in its DIP incarnation--a 64 pin (0.050 spacing) DIP. I've got one somewhere. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:56:11 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:56:11 -0300 Subject: IBM RT Mouse Was: IBM RT-PC available References: <4B27DE27.6000001@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <229601ca7dc9$a5dad140$0301a8c0@Alexandre> First, some info I got on the net: ------------------------- H.11 - What is the pinout of the 6150/6151 Mouse/Tablet port? [ Has anybody gotten a NON-IBM RT mouse running on an RT? Or have a 3 button mouse that works on an RT? - MW ] Here is pin-out and information on the RT locator port. More information is available from "IBM RT PC Hardware Technical Reference" Volume 1 P/N 75X2032, Chapter 9 pages 9-24 thru 9-29, and from Chapter 5, pages 5-131 thru 5-135 and page 5-145. [ The connector is a AMP type, I don't have the P/N of how to get the parts to construct one - MW ] Connector Specifications: (view is looking into the connector (male receptacle) socket on the back of the RT system unit. +--------------+ 1 = ground. | 1 3 5 | 2 = Transmit to device. | | 3 = +12 Volts - 2 4 6 - 4 = -12 Volts | | 5 = +5 Volts +----------+ 6 = Receive from device. The RT standard locator device is a two button mouse. The middle button on a three button mouse can be simulated by pressing both buttons simultaniously, mostly used for X-windows. Resolution: 25, 50, 100 or 200 counts per inch. Default=100. Sampling rate: Programmable 10,20,40,60,80 or 100. Default=100. Data modes: Stream (default), remote. Scaling: Linear (default), exponential. > Protocol: RS232C, 9600 baud, async, full duplex, > 1 stop bit, odd parity. - Self test at power-on or when requested by system. - The locator device is semi-intelligent and has 14 different commands that it understands. - 11 bit framing protocol. ------------------------- Seems it wouldn't be too simple to just connect a serial mouse to the chain. But I'd at least try :o) The speed and protocol SEEMS to be the same. Only the "different commands that it understands" that maybe will not be very helpful to this hack. Anyone with the RT hardware manual? :o) From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 15 14:05:23 2009 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:05:23 +0100 Subject: IBM RT Mouse Was: IBM RT-PC available] Message-ID: <4B27EC03.60308@xs4all.nl> > > I can check out the wiring and protocol (if not propietary) later. At http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr/shadow/www/ibmrt/faq/hardware.txt (H.11) I found some info. The mouse (or locator in IBM RT speak) is more a co-processor on a wire than a humble mouse :-). Fred Jan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:05:42 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:05:42 -0500 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/15/09, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Want something hackable? Look for an AP660 from Apex. No service >> > manual >> > but full listing of the ROM :oD >> >> I have one of those. Unlike most cheap-o consumer devices, there _is_ >> detailed internals data available - detailed enough to retool the >> firmware. >> >> It's not full circuit diagrams and datasheets, but from the software >> side of things, much, much better than most devices. > > I am wondering how useful a ROM listing is without scheamtics. Surely for > something like this you need to know how the firmware interacts with the > hardware (what the various I/O ports do, etc), and that means (at least > to me) scheamtics and documented ICs. Documented to the level of the register model, sure. You can't write firmware without knowing where and what the I/O ports are, I agree. What I can't promise is the level of detail at the circuit level - i.e., I have not dug around for the specific datasheets for the major chips involved. I realize that it means "to you" schematics and documented ICs, but to many others (myself included), a workable starting point is a memory map and register model. I'm all in favor of schematics and datasheets, and use them and collect them and occasionally create them, but I also know I can often gain enough understanding to make things work with a less-than-complete picture (something I often encounter as a consultant). >> It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive > > For which you don't get service data, presumably. Probably not, but if you don't like one transport, you can swap it out for another device or even make your own IDE target from scratch (and I have written IDE device drivers for host controllers, so I know the command-level protocol isn't that bad, especially if you control both sides of the cable, as you would with this unit). > The transport (motors, laser pickup, etc) is probably the section most > likely to fail, and the section with the most alignment adjustments. I'd > need service data on that. No doubt. I've seen plenty of consumer devices with bad laser pickup assemblies. So throw out the DVD player and install a hard disk or flash disk. My point was that unlike most other DVD players, this one talks to its transport via a PC-style IDE interface, and information on that is widely available. It won't be a "DVD player" anymore, but it will be a media player, and since others have done it before (DVD->hard disk conversion), there's no reason not to expect success. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:05:59 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:05:59 -0300 Subject: IBM RT-PC available References: Message-ID: <22b801ca7dcb$2226c640$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Maybe if someone comes up with the protocol (or some reference for >> the >> original mouse, like...schematics :oD) I can help in doing something like >> a >> PS-2 converter :) > I don't think schemaitcs would help in this case. I'll bet the original > mouse contains a microcontroller, and the firmware of that is what > defines the protocol. Tony, I thought this mouse would be something simpler (like the amiga/atari mouse which uses a LM324), but seems very complicated matter...see my last message about it From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:05:06 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:05:06 -0300 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) References: Message-ID: <22b701ca7dcb$20642eb0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I am wondering how useful a ROM listing is without scheamtics. Surely for > something like this you need to know how the firmware interacts with the > hardware (what the various I/O ports do, etc), and that means (at least > to me) scheamtics and documented ICs. What about a COMMENTED rom listing? :o) > For which you don't get service data, presumably. ATAPI docs are all around. > The transport (motors, laser pickup, etc) is probably the section most > likely to fail, and the section with the most alignment adjustments. I'd > need > service data on that. Alignment? Oh, seems you never got a DVD player on your hands. All the mech aligns itself with the servo info from the DVD player. The only thing you can do is change the optical unit (ok, you can change the laser diode) and adjust the bias current - which is the same procedure for almost everything with a laser pickup. I have a XBOX and **never** had to change the laser pickup. But I have a spare one in case it fails, just drop-in and it works. I respect your oppinion and admire your will to repair everything. I'm your fan, as I said before. But don't be so anal retentive. There is a world of good things around that has a simplified service manual. :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:15:55 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:15:55 -0300 Subject: Amiga Demo's References: Message-ID: <22c701ca7dcb$d4af93f0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> They **were** expensive. Now they are almost free. No one wants >> something that only plays DVDs. > Is there a PAL-output version? Where would I be likely to find one in the > UK? Yes, there were! I doubt they are expensive by now. This is THE laserdisc player, but this is the NTSC version and is too expensive: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pioneer-Elite-DVL-90-laserdisc-dvd-cd-player_W0QQitemZ280436994892QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item414b58f34c > No, I wouldn't really expect that. But some data on the ICs (proper > pinout diagrams, detailed block diagrams, etc) would be useful. That is avaiable, look for apex ap660 on the net and you'll find LOTS of technical documents. It was made in an epoch that almost ALL "non-expensive" DVDs were made with the same chipset (mediatek? It is a long time I don't hear about it). >> But don't have video :) > I am not sure I understand that. Books are nice. But sometimes I want to SEE these things working. It is nice to think about a fish going up and down, or a car racing with some noise, but only video/audio gives you the complete picture (pun intended). :o) From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 15 14:17:39 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:17:39 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle Message-ID: <200912152017.nBFKHnYG043880@billY.EZWIND.NET> Sorry about that... I read "New York" and assumed New York, and that's correct... From: Edwina Williams Subject: Re: Old Computer to recycle Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:13:46 -0500 To: John Foust X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-AOL-IP: 162.84.208.173 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Wmsedw at aol.com X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 X-Spam-Score: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-Spam-Flag: NO Sorry, I should have included this information. I am in New York City, in the Inwood neighborhood, which is near (north of) the George Washington bridge in Manhattan. Because I am near the bridge, I am also convenient to New Jersey. Also, I have a car and sometimes go to the Kingston, New York area, so I could take the computer there to meet up with someone. Thank you, Edwina From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 15 15:53:26 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <897760.81950.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Speaking of TV (and admittedly going OT, so I apologise) as of this week Teletext (UK channels ITV, 4 and 5) no longer has all teletext pages (e.g. all useful stuff, such as TV listings has been removed permanently). Apparently, it's not profitable and thus has been effectively closed down. All that remains are holiday adverts :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 15/12/09, Tony Duell wrote: From: Tony Duell Subject: Re: Amiga Demo's To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, 15 December, 2009, 19:27 > > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I've yet to se a DVD (as opposed to a DVD-ROM, which is not useable on > >> DVD player normally) about the technical side of classic computing. > > > >? ? Jim? :oD > > No market for that (yet).? You have to glean a lot of info from a lot of > different documentaries. Given that the TV programmes we get over here are so dumbed-down as to be useless, and the information is very unreliable, I'd rather spend the time with good books (and even better documention on the classic computers themselves). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 16:51:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:51:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20091215145051.T75202@shell.lmi.net> > Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at > some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to > get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a > 386. Are 386 drives still available? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 17:15:54 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:15:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062647F3@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <20091215150923.F75202@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Bob Brown wrote: > It says "INSEST!DISKEUTE" > When I close the diskette door, the exclamation points turn non-inverse > but still cover the screen. > It when boots (in this case I am booting a cpm disk). > The letters seem jumbled up...after booting, I see: > "CQ/MQ!for!tss-81 MOEM II > 63k!Version!2/25A > Copyrigit!(c)!1981 Migecoat Associaues" > And it goes to a command prompt. > The rest of the screen is still filled with exclamation points. > The system does respond as I type things, but letters are garbled. > Any ideas? Does this sound like some bad memory? How can I diagnose > this? Make a quick chart. Write down the binary bit pattern for the ASCII codes of the letters that you are getting, and in the other column, write down the bit patterns for the ASCII codes of the characters that you think that they SHOULD be. Use an ASCII chart if you need to. ("Migecoat" should be "Lifeboat") Notice the pattern. In this case, the pattern and the problem will be obvious once you make at least part of that chart. Now find the video memory. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 15 17:27:01 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:27:01 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <4B275951.6821.227CAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/09 9:39 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 15 Dec 2009 at 0:14, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? >> At a reasonable price? > > Since this is long-wave UV (UVA) , you don't need the germicidal > lamps, which are made to produce light at about 250 nm. An old > consumer "sunlamp" for tanning or a low-pressure mercury vapor > outdoor luminaire are suitable choices. Or you can borrow a metal > halide "grow light" from your friendly local pot farmer. > > Sunlight also works well, if you get the stuff this time of year (he > said, peering out the window at the dark gray sky). > > --Chuck Lots of clouds here in the seattle area currently. Been about 20 years since I knew anyone with grow lights :) From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 15 17:36:05 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:36:05 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Last time I got a model 2 or 16 that was "broken" I pulled all the boards, one at a time, put them on an antistatic mat, and pulled and reinserted all socketed chips, I also cleaned the corrosion off the card edge fingers. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 17:43:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:43:44 -0800 Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit Message-ID: <4B27AEB0.714.16FF90C@cclist.sydex.com> Anyone have any information for this early QIC drive? Model DCD3- 30/90. The controller board is pretty simple--just some 7400 series TTL, made by Solid State Systems. The most complex IC is an AM27S21 1Kbit bipolar PROM. There's a 220/330 terminator pack near the 50 position header, if that's any help. Is this a QIC-36 interface drive (50 pin header on the controller board)? Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 17:45:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:45:46 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: References: <4B275951.6821.227CAC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B27AF2A.17591.171D493@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2009 at 15:27, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Lots of clouds here in the seattle area currently. Been about 20 > years since I knew anyone with grow lights :) The big metal halide jobs keep showing up on the local Craigslist here. Probably a cultural thing down here in Oregon. Wonder if Fred sees them much down there in Berkeley... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 17:53:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:53:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <20091215155012.J75202@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Bob Brown wrote: > The entire screen is having the trouble. > (it is odd that when it asks me to mount the disk, the !'s are > inverse...as soon as I put the disk in, they become normal-video !'s. > Also, the oddly swapped around characters... "oddly swapped"?? You are RIGHT!! Every even numbered character has been converted to the next ODD number! Now, make that chart. > How easy is it to pull those chips and swap them around? They should be plugged into sockets. VERY caarefully pry them out, without bending any of the pins. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 18:02:16 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:02:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stopped clock (Was: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912150823h22a15cf5n36b2a3248d413eb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <6dbe3c380912150823h22a15cf5n36b2a3248d413eb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091215155752.H75202@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > position will be correct. I guess a stopped clock is right twice a day. When the fancy new "Master/Slave" Simplex clock in the library went dead, it was stuck at 12:00. The administration explicitly ordered me to not fix it. So, in order to avoid confusion, I hung a sign next to it saying, "This is not a clock. This device predicts the exact time that NOON will occur." It was either going to be that, or "This is not a VCR" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 15 18:19:36 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:19:36 -0700 Subject: Stopped clock (Was: trs-80 model II trouble In-Reply-To: <20091215155752.H75202@shell.lmi.net> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <6dbe3c380912150823h22a15cf5n36b2a3248d413eb1@mail.gmail.com> <20091215155752.H75202@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B282798.8000809@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: >> position will be correct. I guess a stopped clock is right twice a day. > > When the fancy new "Master/Slave" Simplex clock in the library went dead, > it was stuck at 12:00. The administration explicitly ordered me to not > fix it. So, in order to avoid confusion, I hung a sign next to it saying, > "This is not a clock. This device predicts the exact time that NOON will > occur." > > It was either going to be that, or "This is not a VCR" You have to have it blink, for a VCR. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 19:37:58 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:37:58 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: <20091215145051.T75202@shell.lmi.net> References: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20091215145051.T75202@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at >> some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to >> get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a >> 386. > > Are 386 drives still available? Until they sell one. Then 385 drives will be available. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 15 19:39:44 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:39:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: References: <200912151300.nBFD0KuX014716@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20091215145051.T75202@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at >>> some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to >>> get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a >>> 386. >> >> Are 386 drives still available? > > Until they sell one. Then 385 drives will be available. ...bottles of beer on the wall! o/~ o/~ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 15 21:23:52 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:23:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: db25 filler panels Message-ID: Before I go out and try to buy or make some, does anyone here have any spare DB25 filler panels? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From borisg at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Dec 16 02:24:51 2009 From: borisg at unixg.ubc.ca (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:24:51 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20091216001240.02dceff8@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> Thanks for the warming tips Ethan. I've got a couple of MacIIvx boxes that I "forgot" in my unheated workshop and the temperature dropped to -4 F a couple of days ago. I was just going to light the wood stove that I have there to warm them up but this looks like it will be too fast a temperature rise as I can get from <-4 F to 80F in the space of about 4-5 hours. One of the Macs has a flaky HDD that I've almost got backed up completely but I don't want to take any chances with when I reboot. I figured that the relative humidity of the air would be low enough with this big a temperature rise from -4 F but will have to figure out how to warm the shop more slowly (besides waiting for spring). One nice way of looking at temperatures of stored computers is a small USB temperature monitor that can sample temperatures from 1/sec to 1/hour and stores 16537 readings. I got mine from wattsupwiththat.com and one of them will be ideal for this as I think I'll try instead of the wood stove is putting in a 1.5 Kw electric heater and leaving it on for a couple of days which might work as the workshop is well insulated. Anyone else have experience of "restoring" HDD's by freezing them? I've used this technique before when I've got a HDD that won't spin up and I toss it in my freezer for about an hour at -10 F and then connect the power. I can't remember where I read this but I've successfully used it on 2 drives to get them to spin up long enough that I can copy their contents. From what I've read on this thread it might have been a fluke (we're talking about modern sealed drives here no more than 10 years old). Boris Gimbarzevsky >On 12/9/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 9:55 PM -0800 12/8/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>On 8 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> > >>> Okay, this is the first time I've ever had to worry about this. When > >>> is it to cold to run a computer? It's 35F out in the garage, and it > >>> is supposed to get a lot colder tonight. I just shut the dehumidifier > >>> down (to cold to run it) and setup a heater near the computers (and > >>> other stuff I don't want to freeze). > >> > >>It seems to me that Ethan would be the perfect one to answer this. > >>35F is probably a heat wave at the South Pole. > > > > Except I don't think they run their computers outdoors! :-) > >But we do use outside air to cool them. It's free except for the >power to push it around. (Oh... and +35F is never seen at the Pole - >the record is +7.5F, and I've personally been around for +7.0F). > >As for the extreme case, we've had computers malfunction when outside >access doors were left open and -80F air came in directly, bypassing >the blowers and the louvers. On a day-to-day basis, the room with the >14 racks that was AMANDA (it was shut down earlier this year after a >10+ year run) shed about 35-40kW of heat with indirect access to >outside air with some measure of automatic and manual thermal controls >(covering up open cable panels and stuffing blankets in hatches in >addition to thermostatic controls on air blowers). If we let the room >get over about +55F, the high-voltage supplies for the photomultipler >tubes would go into thermal shutdown (ultra-dry air at 650millibars >doesn't have much heat capacity). OTOH, and more to the point, if we >let the room get much colder than about +35F (say +25F or colder), a >specific rack of digital hardware that was adjacent to the floor vents >feeding cold air to the high voltage supplies would malfunction until >the temp came up to the high thirties to low forties. > >In another location entirely, central Ohio, I used to rent the >basement of my mother's typing and typesetting shop. The building was >a late 19th C/early 20th C brick "shotgun" commercial space with a >former storm-cellar-type access to the basement. As such, cold air >poured from the modern back door, down the basement stairs, and into >the space I ran PDP-8s, PDP-11s and a VAX-11/730. One of my jobs at >the time was hacking PDP-11 assembler on an 11/23. The basement would >routinely get to +40F, and sometimes colder if the wind was from the >right direction (the water pipes had electric wraps). I couldn't >personally stand to work in that environment without a heater pointed >at me, but the computers ran fine. The lone device that had problems >was an LA-180 printer I used for listings. It worked down to about >+45F, but colder than that, I speculate that the rail lubricant got >too viscous, because it would blow carriage motor fuses until it >warmed up. I quickly learned not to print on cold nights. > >I'd say that if you keep things at or above freezing, you are probably >perfectly fine. Magnetic media is a lot more sensitive than ICs in >terms of cold soaking. One thing to watch for is to not power up >cold-soaked electronics. The current inrush is likely to blow ICs >(the internal bonded wires between the die and the frame, mostly). >I've thawed machines that were left in unheated buildings over the >winter at McMurdo - ordinary temps around -45F or so. Specifically in >that case (ultra cold, powered off), there are known and published >"max rates of rise" of temps to minimize the risk of permanent damage >from thermal expansion. A good rule of thumb is about 2-3 degrees per >hour. What I did with the cold-soaked computers was to throw them >into a lab freezer at -40F for a few hours, then into a lab >environmental chamber at -30F that I would tweak up about 5 degrees >every couple of hours. When the chamber was up to about +20F, I threw >the equipment in a lab refrigerator. The thaw process took two >workdays, but 100% of what I treated that way survived (no hard disk - >these were floppy-booting diskless PCs that ran from a Novell server). > >If it gets really cold (+0F, say), I'd bring the disks in the house >and leave the CPUs powered off until the garage temps are back around >+32F. ICs can be stored down to -40 typically, but not operated at >those temps (and especially not put through a power-on cycle at those >temps). > >So that's my experience and observations of cold and computers. Take >away from it what you will. > >-ethan From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Dec 15 10:05:56 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:05:56 -0800 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B27B3E4.9020808@garlic.com> Tony Duell ????????: >> The Xebec OEM controller for the 9134A uses a 9914. It speaks Amigo. >> IIRC, the later HP board used for the 9133A also uses a 9914. The 9121 > > Interesting... > > I wonder why HP went away from the 9914 in the drive units (all later > drives seem to use either the 8291 or the Medusa) while keeping it in > the host computers. > I've wondered about that too. I wanted to use a G/HPIB ISA card with a cheap PC to emulate the then more pricey 9134 and I was told that it was not possible to make a 9914 based ISA card talk Amigo as a device. But considering that they're used in Xebec controllers that doesn't seem right. What changed in the Amigo/SS/CS-80/IEEE specs that made it impossible? I vaguely remember something mentioned about a problem with how MSDOS talked to discs: by reading/writing sector by sector instead of files and some associated timing problems. I don't know if that's correct though, since the Xebec controllers--both the 1-disc and the 2-disc talks fine to the HP-150. The only problem with it is that it cannot format a 10Mb disc; it insists on formatting it as a single 5Mb. Reads & writes it fine, though. (I'd like to find out how to format discs on a PC for use in the 9134 drives. I could probably use bigger discs if they could be formatted properly.) >> also uses a 9914. > > Every 9121 I;ve seen has an 8291 in it. I have the 'service manual' for > the 3.5" floppy drive units, and while the only schematics it contains > are for PSUs it does contain full parts lists for the controller board in > the 9121. It states it uses a 8291. This was from memory. Unfortunately, the 91xx discs are buried deep, not quickly accessible. I was pretty sure it was a 9914 for some reason. Perhaps I was thinking of the older floppy drives. Somehow I forgot to take pix of the HP controllers and only had pix of the Xebec controllers. Which I can't find now. -- jd From ats at offog.org Wed Dec 16 07:03:00 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:03:00 +0000 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <897760.81950.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> (Andrew Burton's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:53:26 +0000 (GMT)") References: <897760.81950.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew Burton writes: > Speaking of TV (and admittedly going OT, so I apologise) [...] It's not completely off-topic: my father was working as an electronic engineer at LWT in the 1970s when ORACLE (the original ITA Teletext service) first started, and he has fond memories of coming in early to boot up the PDP-11 that generated the Teletext signal... Teletext Ltd. took over from ORACLE at the end of 1992, and ORACLE decided to go out with a bang: http://teletext.mb21.co.uk/gallery/oracle/end-gone.shtml This week's farewell messages were rather disappointing in comparison, with no mention of ORACLE having actually done all the hard work before Teletext Ltd. got there: http://offog.org/stuff/goodbye-teletext/g/ Maybe we'll see something more interesting when analogue TV finally goes off the air and the remaining few pages disappear -- but I doubt it! An idea that's come up a few times on the bbc-micro list is building something to generate a Teletext signal at home, since there's a variety of interesting hardware for decoding Teletext on various machines (e.g. the Acorn and Morley Teletext adapters for the BBC), and it'd be nice to be able to demonstrate things like Telesoftware. This should be reasonably easy given a fast-enough microcontroller... and when it happens, I've now got a dump of a couple of hours of ITV/C4's pre-shutdown Teletext stream from Monday night to play back through it. -- Adam Sampson From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Dec 16 08:10:24 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:10:24 -0600 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <20091215155012.J75202@shell.lmi.net> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre><746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com><3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20091215155012.J75202@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Thanks to everyone's advice. You were all right (as was my original suspicion)...that it was the video memory. Thanks to the pointers on where the video memory was (I don't have schematics or other tech info on this system). I was able to find the bad memory...and, amazingly, I found that I had another 2114 that I could put in (I took it out of my heathkit microprocessor-trainer. And it makes the trs-80 work much betta! So...a couple of questions: 1) How can I get just 1 2114 that works to replace the one I took out of my heathkit? (the place that people pointed-out for buying chips has a $25 minimum..and I don't need that many chips). 2) What can I do with a model II now? When it is booted into CP/M, will it only run CPM stuff specifically for the trs-80 or will it run any CP/M stuff that is on 8" floppy? 3) Where can I get some disks with interesting goodies to run on the model II? (most of the disks that I have with it have some office software and backups of some data...not too much of interest). Thanks! -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: trs-80 model II trouble On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Bob Brown wrote: > The entire screen is having the trouble. > (it is odd that when it asks me to mount the disk, the !'s are > inverse...as soon as I put the disk in, they become normal-video !'s. > Also, the oddly swapped around characters... "oddly swapped"?? You are RIGHT!! Every even numbered character has been converted to the next ODD number! Now, make that chart. > How easy is it to pull those chips and swap them around? They should be plugged into sockets. VERY caarefully pry them out, without bending any of the pins. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 16 08:36:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:36:31 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre><746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com><3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20091215155012.J75202@shell.lmi.net> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > Thanks to everyone's advice. You were all right (as was my original > suspicion)...that it was the video memory. > Thanks to the pointers on where the video memory was (I don't have > schematics or other tech info on this system). > I was able to find the bad memory...and, amazingly, I found that I had > another 2114 that I could put in (I took it out of my heathkit > microprocessor-trainer. And it makes the trs-80 work much betta! Excellent. Good job! > So...a couple of questions: > 1) How can I get just 1 2114 that works to replace the one I took > out of my heathkit? (the place that people pointed-out for buying > chips > has a $25 minimum..and I don't need that many chips). There's always eBay.. > 2) What can I do with a model II now? When it is booted into CP/M, > will it only run CPM stuff specifically for the trs-80 or will it run > any CP/M stuff that is on 8" floppy? Most any CP/M software. That's the whole point of CP/M. > 3) Where can I get some disks with interesting goodies to run on > the model II? (most of the disks that I have with it have some office > software and backups of some data...not too much of interest). Can't help you there.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 16 08:49:12 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:49:12 -0500 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20091216001240.02dceff8@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> References: <4B1ECB44.21892.2E4A597@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20091216001240.02dceff8@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <735BC73A-86B8-47D9-B6C1-9DF518BA7E00@neurotica.com> On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:24 AM, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > Anyone else have experience of "restoring" HDD's by freezing them? > I've used this technique before when I've got a HDD that won't spin > up and I toss it in my freezer for about an hour at -10 F and then > connect the power. I can't remember where I read this but I've > successfully used it on 2 drives to get them to spin up long enough > that I can copy their contents. From what I've read on this thread > it might have been a fluke (we're talking about modern sealed > drives here no more than 10 years old). It's not a fluke. I call it "the freezer trick" and have used it many times to get "just a little more life" out of a drive, usually just long enough to retrieve critical data. I've never investigated why this works, as I've only done it during a crisis, and after successfully retrieving said critical data I'd usually hit a pitcher or two of margaritas. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 09:00:13 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:00:13 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20091215155012.J75202@shell.lmi.net> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Bob Brown wrote: >> 2) ? ? ?What can I do with a model II now? ?When it is booted into CP/M, >> will it only run CPM stuff specifically for the trs-80 or will it run >> any CP/M stuff that is on 8" floppy? > > ?Most any CP/M software. ?That's the whole point of CP/M. One of my favorite things that runs on CP/M is the Scott Adams' Adventure series. It's true that there are run-time engines for more modern platforms (including Palm Pilot (via Inform and PalmFrotz, a Z-machine) and even just a straight Perl interpreter), but Scott Adams sold CP/M games back in the day, and you should be able to run the originals on your Model II. Long ago, before the IF community made all the platform conversions, it was easier to find the CP/M binaries (since that was about the only common format we had to pass around). Now, you might have to dig a bit for them. Scott Adams himself has not released the games into the Public Domain, but does allow people to copy and play the games, and asks for a donation if you enjoy them. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 16 09:00:46 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:00:46 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <203a01ca7da6$00bcd960$0301a8c0@Alexandre><746265.81900.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com><3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0626484D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>, <20091215155012.J75202@shell.lmi.net>, <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: > Subject: RE: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up > Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:10:24 -0600 > From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Thanks to everyone's advice. You were all right (as was my original > suspicion)...that it was the video memory. > Thanks to the pointers on where the video memory was (I don't have > schematics or other tech info on this system). > I was able to find the bad memory...and, amazingly, I found that I had > another 2114 that I could put in (I took it out of my heathkit > microprocessor-trainer. And it makes the trs-80 work much betta! > > So...a couple of questions: > 1) How can I get just 1 2114 that works to replace the one I took > out of my heathkit? (the place that people pointed-out for buying chips > has a $25 minimum..and I don't need that many chips). > 2) What can I do with a model II now? When it is booted into CP/M, > will it only run CPM stuff specifically for the trs-80 or will it run > any CP/M stuff that is on 8" floppy? > 3) Where can I get some disks with interesting goodies to run on > the model II? (most of the disks that I have with it have some office > software and backups of some data...not too much of interest). > > Thanks! > -Bob Hi I don't recall if Jameco had a minimum purchase. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 16 09:30:58 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:30:58 -0500 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200912161030.59241.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive > > For which you don't get service data, presumably. The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;) /me ducks Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From marvin at west.net Wed Dec 16 13:18:19 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:18:19 -0800 Subject: 386 Drives, was Re: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle Message-ID: <4B29327B.2000807@west.net> From: Fred Cisin > >> > Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at >> > some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to >> > get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a >> > 386. > > Are 386 drives still available? How many do you need/want, and what size :)? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Dec 16 13:46:25 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:46:25 -0800 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 1:25 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Running Computers Cold > > > > On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >> Don't REAL computers generate their own heat? (and too much of it) > > > > Since moving my servers in, I have never had to use my central > heating. Ever. > > Granted, this is "sunny So Cal" but we've been getting below freezing > at > > night this last week, and the servers are saving money on the gas > bill. > > After my wife and I got married we lived in an apartment for 8 years. > During that time we turned on the heat maybe a half dozen times, and > quite > frequently would have to open up and let cold air in when it was > freezing > out. > > Now that we own a house, and the computers are in the garage we're > using the > heat a lot. I was looking at the computers being out there as a way to > help > keep the temperature a bit warmer, but with this cold spell, it isn't > working. > > Zane > We recently had a cold spell here in Seattle, with temperatures never getting above freezing during the day and going down to the teens or low twenties at night. My home office is in the basement and usually stays pretty warm - oftentimes *too* warm. But I was having problems keeping the temperature up in my ball python's enclosure (which is in my office - my family isn't fond of snakes). So I powered up the VAX 4000-300 I have in there (along with a couple of dual G4 Power Macs), and everything was cozy again.... -- Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 16 13:41:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 Drives, was Re: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: <4B29327B.2000807@west.net> References: <4B29327B.2000807@west.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > From: Fred Cisin >> >>> > Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at >>> > some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to >>> > get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a >>> > 386. >> >> Are 386 drives still available? > > How many do you need/want, and what size :)? I'm just trying to figure out what a "386 drive" actually is. My 386sx/16 laptop has an IDE HD in it. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 16 14:08:35 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:08:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 Drives, was Re: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: References: <4B29327B.2000807@west.net> Message-ID: <20091216120450.W20012@shell.lmi.net> > >>> > Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at > >>> > some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to > >>> > get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a > >>> > 386. On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm just trying to figure out what a "386 drive" actually is. My 386sx/16 > laptop has an IDE HD in it. Adding one to a 286 computer turns it into a 386. Therefore, it must add at least 100 additional computrons. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:09:08 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:09:08 -0300 Subject: 386 Drives, was Re: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle References: <4B29327B.2000807@west.net> Message-ID: <01de01ca7e94$213aed50$04000100@Alexandre> > I'm just trying to figure out what a "386 drive" actually is. My 386sx/16 > laptop has an IDE HD in it. It is a joke :o) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 16 14:14:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:14:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: <200912161030.59241.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200912161030.59241.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20091216121223.K20012@shell.lmi.net> > > > It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive > > For which you don't get service data, presumably. On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab > another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;) > /me ducks No, the point is that you can replace the drive with a properly documented drive (as soon as one exists) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 13:05:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:05:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: <4B27B3E4.9020808@garlic.com> from "jd" at Dec 15, 9 08:05:56 am Message-ID: > > I wonder why HP went away from the 9914 in the drive units (all later=20 > > drives seem to use either the 8291 or the Medusa) while keeping it in=20 > > the host computers.=20 > >=20 > > I've wondered about that too. I wanted to use a G/HPIB ISA card with a > cheap PC to emulate the then more pricey 9134 and I was told that it I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF card. Make it 'open( and I'll build several... > was not possible to make a 9914 based ISA card talk Amigo as a device. > But considering that they're used in Xebec controllers that doesn't I have never actually seen this Xebec controller in an HP drive unit, but I'll believe it exists. > seem right. What changed in the Amigo/SS/CS-80/IEEE specs that made it > impossible? I vaguely remember something mentioned about a problem > with how MSDOS talked to discs: by reading/writing sector by sector > instead of files and some associated timing problems. I don't know if I can;t see why that would be a problem. The HP protocols are all block, not file, baeed (unlike the Commodore drives for the PET). The drive doesn't have any idea what OS is talking to the it, it has no understanding for the directory or the filesystem. > that's correct though, since the Xebec controllers--both the 1-disc > and the 2-disc talks fine to the HP-150. The only problem with it is > that it cannot format a 10Mb disc; it insists on formatting it as a > single 5Mb. Reads & writes it fine, though. > > (I'd like to find out how to format discs on a PC for use in the 9134 > drives. I could probably use bigger discs if they could be formatted > properly.) I wouldn't bet on it. I am pretty sure the later drives, at least (9144H, etc) check that the hard drive actually matches what is expected (I have been told the cotnroller tries to select non-exixstant heads and makes sure the drive asserts the erorr line, things like that). The 9133V controller (I assume there's a 9134 version, if only becuase you could trivially remoove the floppy drive and controller from a 9133V) can be jumpered to work in 3 ways : With a 5M drive (ST406, and no, that isn't a typo [1]), this is a normal 9133V With a 15Mbyte drive (ST419), that's a 9133XV (I assume you've noticed that in this case the suffx letters are the capacity in roman numerals) With a 5M drive (ST406), but configured as 4 logical volumes. It then appears exaclty like a 9895 8" drive with 3 slaves. IIRC this is the only hard disk unit that works with an HP85. I don't think it will access larger drives if you managed to connect and format one, at least not without firmware mods. Whether it will object to having a larger drive (ewen if you only want to use 15M of it) I don't know [1] In other words I don't mean an ST506. An ST406 is a single-platter (2 head) drive, basically half an ST412 (which is a 2 platter, 4 head thing). The ST419 is the 3 platter ,6 head one. I assume the last 2 digits are the unformatted capacity or something similar. Incidnetally, the HP ISA HPIB card used to link these drives to an IBM compatible (and yes such a thing does exist) uses a 9914 chip. I have one here. > > >> also uses a 9914. > >=20 > > Every 9121 I;ve seen has an 8291 in it. I have the 'service manual' for= > =20 > > the 3.5" floppy drive units, and while the only schematics it contains=20 > > are for PSUs it does contain full parts lists for the controller board = > in=20 > > the 9121. It states it uses a 8291. > > This was from memory. Unfortunately, the 91xx discs are buried deep, > not quickly accessible. I was pretty sure it was a 9914 for some I've been inside the 9121, it's certainly a 8291. > reason. Perhaps I was thinking of the older floppy drives. Somehow I I can;t think which ones. The 82901 series (5.25" drives) use the 8291 as well. I've never owned a 9895 8" drive, so I can't somment on that one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 13:20:52 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <22b801ca7dcb$2226c640$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 15, 9 06:05:59 pm Message-ID: > > >> Maybe if someone comes up with the protocol (or some reference for > >> the > >> original mouse, like...schematics :oD) I can help in doing something like > >> a > >> PS-2 converter :) > > I don't think schemaitcs would help in this case. I'll bet the original > > mouse contains a microcontroller, and the firmware of that is what > > defines the protocol. > > Tony, I thought this mouse would be something simpler (like the > amiga/atari mouse which uses a LM324), but seems very complicated > matter...see my last message about it As I am sure you know, there are basically 2 types of mouse used on classic computers. The simple ones are the 'quadrature' mice (aka 'bus mice' on PCs). Those output the raw data from the encoders, 2 square waves in quadrature, hence the neam. The mouse is electroncially very simple (just op-amps/comparators for the signals from the encoders). Used on the ST, Amiga, Archimedes, Mac (before ADB),some Amstrad PCs and so on. The complicated ones contain a microcontroller which processes the signals from the controller. It talks to the host via some serial protocol (ADB, PC/", the various RS232 command sets (Logitec, Microsoft, etc), HP=HIL). In general all quadrature mice are much the saem. I've never seen one which doesn't work at TTL levels. 6 connections are going to be +5V, ground and the 4 quadrature signals. In general the buttons just ground a vonnecion. So a 3 utton muse has 9 connections. And you can normally adapt these mice for another machine just by changing the connector (I got my first Archimedes without a mouse, I bought a replacement 3-button mouse for the ST or Amiga (I forget which) from Maplin, cut off the DE9 socket and soldered on the 9 pin mini-DIN. 'Serial' mice are another matter. To convert one of those for another machine involvees some firmware. Either replacing the microcontroller in the mouse or making an interface which is going to involve a microcontroller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 13:55:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:55:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <897760.81950.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Dec 15, 9 09:53:26 pm Message-ID: > > > Speaking of TV (and admittedly going OT, so I apologise) as of this week Te= > letext (UK channels ITV, 4 and 5) no longer has all teletext pages (e.g. al= > l useful stuff, such as TV listings has been removed permanently). Apparent= Zog.. So the metal box behind me is pretty useless now (a homebrew teletext decoder using the Philips SAA5231 and SAA5243) that links to one of my PCs (I2C interface of course, bit-banged on the parallel port). I must give serious though to making a teletext _encoder_. As far as I can see it would be legal to trasnmit teletext on the amateur bands that lalow television (it's not a secret code or cipher -- the protoocol is fully docuemtned, amd so on). Has anyone ever done that I wonder. To make this marginally on-topic, at one time the BBC (TV company) transmitted programs for the BBC micro (computer) on teletext pages IIRC. You could either type them in by hand or buy a teletxt decoder that plugged into the BBC micro and download them automatically. Alas when this was being done I had neither a teletext decoder or a BBC micro. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 13:59:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:59:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: <4B27AEB0.714.16FF90C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 15, 9 03:43:44 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone have any information for this early QIC drive? Model DCD3- > 30/90. The controller board is pretty simple--just some 7400 series > TTL, made by Solid State Systems. The most complex IC is an AM27S21 > 1Kbit bipolar PROM. There's a 220/330 terminator pack near the 50 > position header, if that's any help. > > Is this a QIC-36 interface drive (50 pin header on the controller > board)? If byu 'controller board' you mean the thign that plugs into the host computer (such as into an ISA slot), then I would think it's more likely to be QIC-02. That's also a 50 pin interface, but is a 'formatted' interface and needs very little logic on the host side. All the trasnlation between 8-=bit bytes and the data stream to the head is carried out in the drive. The drive is probably wuite complicated with at least one microcontorller and some buffer RAM to handle this data conversion. Originally (I am thinking back to the Archive Sidewinder here, a QIC-11 format drive in an 8" floppy form factor), the basic drive had a QIC-36 interface, there was then a controller (2 stacked boards that connected ot this and had a QIC02 interface back to the host. I've seen a later drive (5.25" form factoer) that did much the same thing -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 14:15:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:15:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: <200912161030.59241.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 16, 9 10:30:58 am Message-ID: > > On Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive > > > > For which you don't get service data, presumably. > > The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab > another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;) You might, but you darn well know I don't. Heck, I repaired a _transistor_ [1] the other day. And didn't we have athread on repairing light bulbs the other week? [1] No, I don;'t mean a transistorised radio (which was called a 'transistor' by some people over hear yeras ago). I mean a transsitor, a single component. It was a 2SB705 (no, don't pretend you've heard of it), the (PNP) pass transistor in the 24V suppy in am Epson printer. It's bolted to a heatsing in said printer and connected to the logic board by a 3-wire cable and cocket. Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine ;-(), all 3 pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source of a replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package to expose the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly it worked. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 14:09:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:09:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Dec 16, 9 01:03:00 pm Message-ID: > An idea that's come up a few times on the bbc-micro list is building > something to generate a Teletext signal at home, since there's a variety I've had much the same thoughts. I'd love to do it the 'classic' way (I assuem the origianl teletext encoders used for CEEFAX (BBC) and ORACLE (ITV) were built from TTL or simialr). Alas I cna't believe schematics of those exist anywhere I could get at :-( Of course the decoder was simplified by the fact that there were many TVs that had teletext decoders built-in (no point in transmitting somehtign if nobody can decode it). So there were semi-custom chips and chipsets to decode teletext. There was ther TIFAX board (from TI, not supriisngly) which ued some pertty-much undocumetned ICs (including something called a 74S262, which is not in many TTL books, but is in fact a character gnerator ROM). And the Philips chipsets which had excellent data sheets and applciation notes. The oriignal one (SAA5000 series) was something of a pain to use with a computer (but it;s what the Acorn teletext decoder used, and in fact the BBC micro has an SAA505 IC on the mainboard (this being the character geneator ROM, etc, of the chipset) so it could display teletext correctly. The later Philips chipsets (SAA5240, etc) were much nicer to use with a computer because they were controlled by an I2C bus which was used not only to select which teletxt page to display, but also could read/write any byte of the display memory. So you could select a page using I2C, check it had arrived (flag readable over I2C) and then read it out using the I2C bus. The Morley teletext decoder for the BBC micro is little more than a TV tuner/IF strip, the SAA5240-based decoder and a CITAC (Computer Interface for Tuning and Control), another I2C-controlled device for channel selection, etc. The whole thing is controlled by a couple of lines on the BBC user port, it-banging the I2C protocol. (can you tell I have one of these? darn it, I have scheamtics...) > of interesting hardware for decoding Teletext on various machines > (e.g. the Acorn and Morley Teletext adapters for the BBC), and it'd be > nice to be able to demonstrate things like Telesoftware. This should be > reasonably easy given a fast-enough microcontroller... and when it I can't rememer what the bit-rate is, but IIRC it's aroudn 6MHz. Not hard to do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 14:21:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:21:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> from "Bob Brown" at Dec 16, 9 08:10:24 am Message-ID: > > Thanks to everyone's advice. You were all right (as was my original > suspicion)...that it was the video memory. > Thanks to the pointers on where the video memory was (I don't have > schematics or other tech info on this system). > I was able to find the bad memory...and, amazingly, I found that I had > another 2114 that I could put in (I took it out of my heathkit > microprocessor-trainer. And it makes the trs-80 work much betta! Well done!/ Repairing this old hardware can be fun, and it's a great feeling when it works again (or at least is is for me). > > So...a couple of questions: > 1) How can I get just 1 2114 that works to replace the one I took > out of my heathkit? (the place that people pointed-out for buying chips > has a $25 minimum..and I don't need that many chips). Get more 2114s :-). In my experience it's one of the most unreliable chips there is, to the extend that I've replaced them in just about everything I've got that uses 2114s at some time or another. For example, I ought an HP9836CU (a complex 68000-based computer) and it had curious floppy controller problems. Soetimes the floppy controller wasn't even found by the self-tests. As soon as I saw the floppy controller board had a pair of 2114s on it as a data buffer, I changed them. And the problems went away. Is there any other electronics or classic computer enthusiast near you who would be prepared to add a couple of 2114s to his next order? that would get over the minimum order charge. > 2) What can I do with a model II now? When it is booted into CP/M, > will it only run CPM stuff specifically for the trs-80 or will it run > any CP/M stuff that is on 8" floppy?=20 AFAIK, unlike some M1 and M3 CP/Ms (which needed specially relocated progrtams), the M2 CP/M will run any standard CP/M programs. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:34:19 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:34:19 -0300 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available References: Message-ID: > I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a > HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB > buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF > card. Make it 'open( and I'll build several... What does a HPIB buffer contains that cannot be reproduced with digital/analog circuitry? :oO From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 15:06:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:06:33 -0800 Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: References: <4B27AEB0.714.16FF90C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 15, 9 03:43:44 pm, Message-ID: <4B28DB59.10883.DBF2A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Dec 2009 at 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: > If byu 'controller board' you mean the thign that plugs into the host > computer (such as into an ISA slot), then I would think it's more > likely to be QIC-02. No--I'm referring to the board labeled "Tape Controller Board" that sits in the last slot of the card cage on this thing. There are three cards--the front-most seems to have all of the power-handling circuitry on it for handling the capstan motor, and head position. The second has a mixed bag of discrete components, a few DIPs and a number of TO-100 ICs. The third card is labeled as the controller and has what I stated before--and it uses 7400 TTL logic, not LS. I'm familiar with QIC-02 and QIC-36 both; I have Wangtek and Caliper QIC-36 drives as well as several (mostly Tandberg) QIC-02 drive. There is *no* intelligence on this drive. It's quite large--fits in a 6U rackmount panel and is powered by a separate +5, +/-15v Lambda power supply mounted on its own 3U section. Given the age of this drive, I'm a bit concerned that the 50- conductor interface might be proprietary, and not anything familiar, such as QIC-36. The only mention on the web that I can find of this drive is from a paper from 1976 saying that it was used to create the NBS (now NIST) quarter-inch tape calibration standard. The branding on the front is 3M Mincom. I've got an old Adic drive that's similar in size, but it takes the old Iomat pre-formatted tapes and has a 6502 on the controller board (again, one of three) with an EPROM bearing a 3M copyright sticker. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:42:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:42:59 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Thanks to everyone's advice. ?You were all right (as was my original >> suspicion)...that it was the video memory. > > Well done!/ Repairing this old hardware can be fun, and it's a great > feeling when it works again (or at least is is for me). Absolutely! >> So...a couple of questions: >> 1) ? ?How can I get just 1 2114... > > Get more 2114s :-). In my experience it's one of the most unreliable > chips there is, to the extend that I've replaced them in just about > everything I've got that uses 2114s at some time or another. I second that. I've replaced many 2114s over the years. One commercial board I worked on in the past (the COMBOARD-I), had a field of 32 chips. Memory failures were one of the most common reasons boards ended up back on the bench. I learned to cleanly unsolder parts from 4-layer boards because of them (clip the leads at the IC body, then extract the pins one-by-one). I got lots of practice. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 16 15:59:05 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:59:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E062649C6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <22225.38338.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thirded. ;) I've replaced my share of these chips as well. ________________________________ From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 3:42:59 PM Subject: Re: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Thanks to everyone's advice. You were all right (as was my original >> suspicion)...that it was the video memory. > > Well done!/ Repairing this old hardware can be fun, and it's a great > feeling when it works again (or at least is is for me). Absolutely! >> So...a couple of questions: >> 1) How can I get just 1 2114... > > Get more 2114s :-). In my experience it's one of the most unreliable > chips there is, to the extend that I've replaced them in just about > everything I've got that uses 2114s at some time or another. I second that. I've replaced many 2114s over the years. One commercial board I worked on in the past (the COMBOARD-I), had a field of 32 chips. Memory failures were one of the most common reasons boards ended up back on the bench. I learned to cleanly unsolder parts from 4-layer boards because of them (clip the leads at the IC body, then extract the pins one-by-one). I got lots of practice. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 16 16:20:39 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <462955.11819.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Whilst a teletext encoder would be cool, what would you transmit? Also, unless it piggy-backed an existing channel, how would we tune our TV's in to the right frequency? Or would it be possible to place it on the "edge" of an existing channel, without interferring with the channel itself? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 16/12/09, Tony Duell wrote: From: Tony Duell Subject: Re: Amiga Demo's To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 16 December, 2009, 19:55 > > > Speaking of TV (and admittedly going OT, so I apologise) as of this week Te= > letext (UK channels ITV, 4 and 5) no longer has all teletext pages (e.g. al= > l useful stuff, such as TV listings has been removed permanently). Apparent= Zog.. So the metal box behind me is pretty useless now (a homebrew teletext decoder using the Philips SAA5231 and SAA5243) that links to one of my PCs (I2C interface of course, bit-banged on the parallel port). I must give serious though to making a teletext _encoder_. As far as I can see it would be legal to trasnmit teletext on the amateur bands that lalow television (it's not a secret code or cipher -- the protoocol is fully docuemtned, amd so on). Has anyone ever done that I wonder. To make this marginally on-topic, at one time the BBC (TV company) transmitted programs for the BBC micro (computer) on teletext pages IIRC. You could either type them in by hand or buy a teletxt decoder that plugged into the BBC micro and download them automatically. Alas when this was being done I had neither a teletext decoder or a BBC micro. -tony From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Dec 16 16:22:13 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:22:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC APC HD? Message-ID: <555106.99686.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Looking for a hard-drive unit for a NEC APC machine in any condition :) Pretty rare I would think, but its worth a try. Cheers Ian. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 17:35:51 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:35:51 -0600 Subject: 386 Drives, was Re: Fwd: Old Computer to recycle In-Reply-To: References: <4B29327B.2000807@west.net> Message-ID: <4B296ED7.6030808@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> >> From: Fred Cisin >>> >>>> > Although the computer was originally a 286, it stopped working at >>>> > some point. I was in graduate school at the time, and spent $900 to >>>> > get all my data back and installed on a new 386 drive. So it is now a >>>> > 386. >>> >>> Are 386 drives still available? >> >> How many do you need/want, and what size :)? > > I'm just trying to figure out what a "386 drive" actually is. My 386sx/16 > laptop has an IDE HD in it. I was in a store that sold all sorts of old odd and ends the other day. They had some modern-ish PCs for sale at the back, and all of the price tags said "without mainframe". :-) My theory is that someone used an access terminal once, and was told "that's the mainframe" - and mistakenly thought that the terminal itself was called a mainframe. Now to them "mainframe" means "computer display"... (the price stickers were all on the systems themselves, and they were all running Windows so certainly didn't lack a motherboard, hard disk etc.) cheers Jules From g-wright at att.net Wed Dec 16 18:16:40 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:16:40 +0000 Subject: NEC APC HD? In-Reply-To: <555106.99686.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <121720090016.23809.4B297868000B205A00005D0122230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Well I might have one to trade for a Keyboard for the APC. I would guess you mean the All_In _One with 8" drives ??? I have a complete package in the Original box but no keyboard - Jerry -------------- Original message from silvercreekvalley : -------------- > Looking for a hard-drive unit for a NEC APC > machine in any condition :) Pretty rare I > would think, but its worth a try. > > Cheers > > Ian. > > > > From ats at offog.org Wed Dec 16 18:47:45 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:47:45 +0000 Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:55:32 +0000 (GMT)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Has anyone ever done that I wonder. Aha! Yep, they have -- searching the Web for "ATV teletext" finds a whole load of examples, although all I've found seem a bit overcomplicated (e.g. PE1OBW's design using an FPGA!) given how straightforward Teletext actually is underneath... -- Adam Sampson From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 22:27:39 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:27:39 -0600 Subject: isa bus exenders Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912162027i2a0d7e91g58ea251563a8e5f5@mail.gmail.com> (I seem to remember talking about this before, but I can't remember if it was here or not. Sorry if this is a repeat) It would be nice to find an ISA bus extender for a price that's close to what the rest of my collection is worth. :-) I've done some googling and such things exist. Something like this is what I'm after: http://www.cyberresearch.net/store/computer-accessories-pc-peripherals/bus-adapters-expansion-chassis/PRO_400_3226.2.htm ...but the price is way out there. Does anyone know where I can get something like this for a more reasonable price? brian From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 01:16:09 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:16:09 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/34 + RL02 for free on Craigslist Chicago Message-ID: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sys/1513324257.html -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 10:13:53 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:53 -0600 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <21ec01ca7dc2$15007780$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <1e3901ca7d74$7f64a0e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <21ec01ca7dc2$15007780$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: > Or you can borrow a metal halide "grow light" from your friendly local pot farmer. The ones by me aren't so "friendly"... On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > Using old scanners as lightboxes is an old trick :) And it keeps your >> board and drawing aligned :) >> How many passes through the scanner does it take? >> > > Many, but if you take out the scanner mechanics and install some > reflective paper and a pair of UV lamps, it gives a great lightbox :) > finally! something to do with the old obsolete scanners I have sitting around! From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 10:21:56 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:21:56 -0600 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair In-Reply-To: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20091215042241.GA2971@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: > (It's worth noting that it was left un-plugged between the last time I used it and now, so I don't think it was a surge). I'm not sure of the area you live in, but it is possible for a nearby lightning strike to blow equipment, without it even being connected, just by the inductance effect that the magnetic field of lightning has can kill equipment. may be easier seeing that monitors have coils in them, which seem to easily pick up and amplify this field... relates to radio but same idea http://www.comm-omni.com/polyweb/magneticfields.htm From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 10:29:06 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:29:06 -0600 Subject: Amdek Color-I RGB monitor repair - nevermind! In-Reply-To: References: <20091215060512.GA3719@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: oh, i've spent close to $200 rebuilding a mac SE which would spazz out whenever I tried to install the OS on it. swapped the mobo, still problems. swapped the floppy drive, still problems. swapped the power supply, internal SCSI cable, floppy cable, in the process broke the neck of the CRT tube, got pissed, spent 3 total days trying to throw everything I had at this machine, then while messing with it late one night, thought to swap the ram out. it booted, ran the installer, installed to HD, and worked just fine. the ram is worth, what? $10 max? basically, never rule out anything simple. On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Sigh. And my second (and final) followup, this time with very red face. > > Err, why? You fixed it, didn't you? Alas not every fault requires a > service manual and 'scope.. > > > No electronic repair was needed. Yes, it was a gummed up power knob. > Spritz > > with contact cleaner, push in and out a few times, and it's good as new. > Carry > > on about your business while I hide under a rock. > > Perhaps I shouldn't mention the time I spent figuring out why an SMPSU > just wouldn't start up. Fuse on the PCB was fine. Switch was fine. What I > took to be t he startup resistor (no schematics) tested fine. Chopper > transsitor was fine. And so on. > > Tuens out somebody had removed the fuse from the mains plug (UK BS1363 > mains plugs contain a cartridge fuse). There was no other fault... > > -tony > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 17 01:30:31 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 01:30:31 -0600 Subject: isa bus exenders In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912162027i2a0d7e91g58ea251563a8e5f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380912162027i2a0d7e91g58ea251563a8e5f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B29DE17.9050004@oldskool.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > It would be nice to find an ISA bus extender for a price that's close to > what the rest of my collection is worth. :-) I've done some googling and > such things exist. Something like this is what I'm after: > > http://www.cyberresearch.net/store/computer-accessories-pc-peripherals/bus-adapters-expansion-chassis/PRO_400_3226.2.htm > > ...but the price is way out there. Does anyone know where I can get > something like this for a more reasonable price? It's still cheaper than a 5161, something I have been trying in vain to find 1. in working condition and complete and 2. under $200. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 02:01:22 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:01:22 -0800 Subject: NEC APC HD? In-Reply-To: <121720090016.23809.4B297868000B205A00005D0122230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <555106.99686.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <121720090016.23809.4B297868000B205A00005D0122230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: I had an external 5 1/4 FH hard drive unit for an APC in 1989. I think it was 15 meg unfortunately, I lost both in the house fire that year. It is a very rare unit. Good luck in looking. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 07:42:38 2009 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (C.H.) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:42:38 +0100 Subject: TV Man Chronicles [off-cat./off-top.] Message-ID: <310f50ab0912170542l331326a5r596590459cb8a815@mail.gmail.com> http://joevancleave.blogspot.com/2009/12/tv-man-chronicles-personal-reminiscence.html From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 17 08:00:35 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:00:35 +0100 Subject: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board Message-ID: <4703BCF8680F45529BB3A0732E601EED@xp1800> Hi, I'm in the market for a HP 82324A/B/C co-processor board, a customer of us is using this for het 3D-measurement equipment. His one burned out a few days ago, so he is searching for a working one. If you have one and want to part from it, contact me off-list. At hp-fix_at_xs4all_dot_nl -Rik From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 09:38:18 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:38:18 -0600 Subject: isa bus exenders In-Reply-To: <4B29DE17.9050004@oldskool.org> References: <6dbe3c380912162027i2a0d7e91g58ea251563a8e5f5@mail.gmail.com> <4B29DE17.9050004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912170738q25ec0b0x17e2fc551e054ef7@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > It's still cheaper than a 5161, something I have been trying in vain to > find 1. in working condition and complete and 2. under $200. > $500 for the boards and cable. Then they want something like another $300 for a case and passive back plane. There's a guy on ebay with a set of boards and cables doing the buy-it-now thing for $186. He seems willing to come down to half price, but it still seems pricey to me. brian From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Dec 17 10:06:36 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:06:36 +0100 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091217160636.GB7599@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2009-12-14 14:15:30 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: [...] > Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it > and then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the > image alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most > Adobe software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you > have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." Here's what I once used to work on scanned book pages. My scanner (A4 scanner) always scanned two A5 pages onto one A4 page and created multi-page TIFFs. Due to memory constraints, each TIFF only contains about 12 to 16 of those A5 pages. The attached script first explodes the multi-page TIFFs to single-page, then cuts those into two pages, fixes up DPI values, OCRes the single pages and finally puts it back all together, forming a PDF file containing the scanned stuff. With some more polish: * automatically detect bw/greyscale/colour * configurable source page size * configurable destination page size * configurable cutting when two pages are scanned together into one TIFF page this could be real fun. Maybe I'll continue to work on it once my move to a new flat is done. If anybody works on it and made it better in any way, I'd like to see the patches! The script may be used under the terms of the GNU General Public License Version 3. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. the second : Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Dec 17 10:10:06 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:10:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for CAD Overlay 1.0 or ESP ($$$) Message-ID: I have a new bounty to post: I'm looking for CAD Overlay 1.0 or CAD Overlay ESP, published by Image Systems Technology in the 1988-89 timeframe. I'll pay $100 for either version, but it must be original with manual. Please contact me directly if you can help out. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Dec 17 10:17:37 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:17:37 +0100 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <20091217160636.GB7599@lug-owl.de> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <20091217160636.GB7599@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20091217161737.GC7599@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2009-12-17 17:06:36 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Mon, 2009-12-14 14:15:30 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > [...] > > Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it > > and then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the > > image alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most > > Adobe software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you > > have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." > > The script may be used under the terms of the GNU General Public > License Version 3. Hmpf, the script was stripped. Here it is, inline: #!/usr/bin/env sh NETPBM=pbm TESSLANG=deu HOCR2PDF=/home/jbglaw/paper/hocr2/HocrConverter.py # 2 = pixel/inch, 600x600 DPI TIFF_296=2 TIFF_282=600 TIFF_283=600 OUTDIR="__out__.$$" rm -rf "${OUTDIR}" mkdir "${OUTDIR}" # Split mkdir "${OUTDIR}/split" for i in *.tiff; do TIFFNAME="`basename "${i}" | sed -e 's/\.tiff$//'`" tiffsplit "${i}" "${OUTDIR}/split/${TIFFNAME}-" done # Convert to bw/grey/colour NetPBM format for unpaper mkdir "${OUTDIR}/singlepage_pbm" for i in "${OUTDIR}"/split/*.tif; do TIFFNAME="`basename "${i}" | sed -e 's/\.tif$//'`" convert "${i}" "${OUTDIR}/singlepage_pbm/${TIFFNAME}.${NETPBM}" done # Beautify scans mkdir "${OUTDIR}/singlepage_unpaper" for i in "${OUTDIR}"/singlepage_pbm/*."${NETPBM}"; do PNMNAME="`basename "${i}" | sed -e 's/\.'"${NETPBM}"'$//'`" unpaper --pre-rotate 90 --input-pages 1 --output-pages 2 --layout double "${i}" "${OUTDIR}/singlepage_unpaper/${PNMNAME}-%d.${NETPBM}" done # OCR all the stuff mkdir "${OUTDIR}/hocr" for i in "${OUTDIR}"/singlepage_unpaper/*."${NETPBM}"; do PNMNAME="`basename "${i}" | sed -e 's/\.'"${NETPBM}"'$//'`" tesslanguage="${TESSLANG}" export tesslanguage ocroscript rec-tess --tesslanguage="${TESSLANG}" "${i}" > "${OUTDIR}/hocr/${PNMNAME}.hocr" done # Generate TIFFs from beautified NetBPM images mkdir "${OUTDIR}/unpaper_tiffified" for i in "${OUTDIR}"/singlepage_unpaper/*."${NETPBM}"; do PNMNAME="`basename "${i}" | sed -e 's/\.'${NETPBM}'$//'`" convert "${i}" "${OUTDIR}/unpaper_tiffified/${PNMNAME}.tiff" tiffset -s 296 "${TIFF_296}" "${OUTDIR}/unpaper_tiffified/${PNMNAME}.tiff" tiffset -s 282 "${TIFF_282}" "${OUTDIR}/unpaper_tiffified/${PNMNAME}.tiff" tiffset -s 283 "${TIFF_283}" "${OUTDIR}/unpaper_tiffified/${PNMNAME}.tiff" done read -p "Fix images now and press enter" FOO # Generate single page PDF files mkdir "${OUTDIR}/single_pdf" for i in "${OUTDIR}/unpaper_tiffified"/*.tiff; do TIFFNAME="`basename "${i}" | sed -e 's/\.tiff$//'`" "${HOCR2PDF}" "${OUTDIR}/hocr/${TIFFNAME}.hocr" "${i}" "${OUTDIR}/single_pdf/${TIFFNAME}.pdf" done # Generate final PDF pdftk "${OUTDIR}/single_pdf"/*.pdf cat output "${OUTDIR}/book.pdf" MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Tr?ume nicht von Dein Leben: Lebe Deinen Traum! the second : From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 17 10:48:13 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:48:13 -0600 Subject: TV Man Chronicles [off-cat./off-top.] In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0912170542l331326a5r596590459cb8a815@mail.gmail.co m> References: <310f50ab0912170542l331326a5r596590459cb8a815@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200912171700.nBHH0rQ1092250@billY.EZWIND.NET> Great story. Not that off-topic. I suspect the same pathologies are present in many classic computer collectors. :-) - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 11:52:10 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:52:10 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > ? What does a HPIB buffer contains that cannot be reproduced with > digital/analog circuitry? :oO Not much, I suppose, except a small board footprint (2-3 small DIPs and maybe some ferrite beads for a complete buffered implementation. Commodore, as cheap as they were, used HPIB buffers (MC3446s, commonly). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 12:03:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:03:17 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: <4B27B3E4.9020808@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I can;t see why that would be a problem. The HP protocols are all block, > not file, baeed (unlike the Commodore drives for the PET). The drive > doesn't have any idea what OS is talking to the it, it has no > understanding for the directory or the filesystem. While Commodore disks do indeed have a firmware "DOS" that handles file-level access and formatted directory listings and such, the firmware fully supports block-level access by the B-R/B-W (or U1/U2) commands. Infocom used that method for their VM implementation for their Z-machine (once you used "CBM DOS" to read in a ~700 byte bootstrap loader). It's a fully-manual scheme - you tell the disk drive to read track X, sector Y into a buffer, then issue a Memory-Read command to pull the bytes out, or Memory-Write to stuff bytes in, then tell the drive to write that buffer back out to wherever on the media you prefer. Generally speaking, 90%+ of software written for Commodore drives just uses the native file scheme, especially if it's load-and-go and doesn't need to do in-application disk accesses, but there's no technical reasons one can't implement an entirely different disk layout scheme (except that the disk might look strange if you did a usual LOAD"$",8 on it, and trying to "Validate" the disk might be dangerous). I think even the commercially-available SYM-1 interface to the 1541 drive depended on the native filesystem/command set. In practice, there was rarely a reason to go beyond it, but the drive would allow it. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 17 14:01:10 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:01:10 -0500 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> (sfid-20091215_002944_074034_CBD31600) References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> (sfid-20091215_002944_074034_CBD31600) Message-ID: On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > this says they have one for sale > > http://www.com-com.co.uk/HP/parts/RK05K.ihtml?pp=1~source=com- > com.co.uk I asked and they want $600. I'm almost tempted, but I thought I'd ask here. Does anyone have a "red pack" in very good shape they'd sell for say, $250? (which to me seems like a more fair price) Please feel free to chime in on what the going rate for such a thing should be. I have no idea, since I've only seen one and they seem slightly on the hard-to-find side. In a perfect world I'd like to find one which is excellent shape, but I am willing to clean it it (which has been much discussed as of late). -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 17 14:01:52 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:01:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <4B27AF2A.17591.171D493@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B275951.6821.227CAC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B27AF2A.17591.171D493@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091217115651.X64332@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The big metal halide jobs keep showing up on the local Craigslist > here. Probably a cultural thing down here in Oregon. > Wonder if Fred sees them much down there in Berkeley... There are a couple of fairly sizable "indoor grdening supply" stores. But, I don't hang out in those circles, and I've heard that the DEA has been fighting for a long time to get at their customer records. If you were to set up a store, there would probably be plenty of demand for them, from people who would buy dozens at a time. They must have a helluva lot of EPROMs, etc. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 13:00:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:00:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: <4B28DB59.10883.DBF2A4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 9 01:06:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 16 Dec 2009 at 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > If byu 'controller board' you mean the thign that plugs into the host > > computer (such as into an ISA slot), then I would think it's more > > likely to be QIC-02. > > No--I'm referring to the board labeled "Tape Controller Board" that > sits in the last slot of the card cage on this thing. There are Oh, OK... > three cards--the front-most seems to have all of the power-handling > circuitry on it for handling the capstan motor, and head position. > The second has a mixed bag of discrete components, a few DIPs and a > number of TO-100 ICs. The third card is labeled as the controller That sounds mostly analoge (there are very few digital ICs in circular metal cans -- I said 'few' rather than none, because I am old enough to remember at least one RTL series in such cans :-))( Possible the head amplifiers, etc? > and has what I stated before--and it uses 7400 TTL logic, not LS. > > I'm familiar with QIC-02 and QIC-36 both; I have Wangtek and Caliper > QIC-36 drives as well as several (mostly Tandberg) QIC-02 drive. Right, The resistor pack you found (termination, I'll bet) sounds possile for QIC-36, but it's possible for a lot of other things too. Do you have a QIC-36 pinout (if not, I must have it somewhere...) You could at least see if inputs nad outputs match up, and maybe trace a few of the signals to see if they go to sane places. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 13:08:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Dec 16, 9 06:34:19 pm Message-ID: > > > I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a > > HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB > > buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF > > card. Make it 'open( and I'll build several... > > What does a HPIB buffer contains that cannot be reproduced with > digital/analog circuitry? :oO Asbsolutely noting. In fact nothing that can't be reproduced with analogue parts (Vonada's th law : digital circuits are made from analuge parts). This is a buffer in the sense of 'signal amplifier' not 'area of RAM', of course. The thing is that I suspoect (without reading the data sheets) that most microcontrollers can't meet the HPIB spec on their port pins, you need to put something between the port and the 24 pin microribbon connector. Might as well be one of the chips designed for the purpose. In any case I have an objection to linking an expensive (probably) custom-programmed (certianly) part to an external connector that's going to be linked to $deity-knows-what. Much easier to replace a buffer chip if somethign goes wrong than replace the microocontroller and have to program it again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 13:11:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:11:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <22225.38338.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Dec 16, 9 01:59:05 pm Message-ID: > > Thirded. ;) I've replaced my share of these chips as well. What is it with the 2114? I've replaced them in devices from many manufacturers, using ICs from many manufacturers, and of different ages. Some plastic DIP, some ceramic. Why is this chip so darn unreliable? I could accept that one batch from one manufacturer could have problems, but there seems to be nothing in common between the ones I've had to change -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 13:14:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:14:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Demo's In-Reply-To: <462955.11819.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "Andrew Burton" at Dec 16, 9 02:20:39 pm Message-ID: > > > Whilst a teletext encoder would be cool, what would you transmit? THe obvious thing (this being classiccmp) is telesoftware for the BBC micro :-) > Also, unless it piggy-backed an existing channel, how would we tune our TV'= > s in to the right frequency? Or would it be possible to place it on the "ed= > ge" of an existing channel, without interferring with the channel itself? Oh, I certainly couldn't trasnmit it on the TV band. The solutions are either to simply use it as a demonstration of the BBC decoder and feed the output of the encoder into an RF modulator that is then cabled to the BBC decoder, or to trasnmit on an amateur band and use a special receiver. Of course you're not allowed to roadcast on amatuer bands, rather you have to communicate with a particular other ham, but there's nothing to stop others listening in, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 13:21:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:21:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 17, 9 01:03:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can;t see why that would be a problem. The HP protocols are all block, > > not file, baeed (unlike the Commodore drives for the PET). The drive > > doesn't have any idea what OS is talking to the it, it has no > > understanding for the directory or the filesystem. > > While Commodore disks do indeed have a firmware "DOS" that handles > file-level access and formatted directory listings and such, the > firmware fully supports block-level access by the B-R/B-W (or U1/U2) > commands. Infocom used that method for their VM implementation for Sure. And there were also commands (which I have used) to read/write locations of the interface processor address space (at least on the IEEE-488 units which have 2 processors in them, one to handle the interface, the other to handle the disk data). > their Z-machine (once you used "CBM DOS" to read in a ~700 byte > bootstrap loader). > > It's a fully-manual scheme - you tell the disk drive to read track X, > sector Y into a buffer, then issue a Memory-Read command to pull the > bytes out, or Memory-Write to stuff bytes in, then tell the drive to > write that buffer back out to wherever on the media you prefer. My point was that on the HP drives, _all_ you have is the block access. The HP drives have no internal filesystem (the commodore ones do, but as you say you don't have to use it). > -tony From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 14:42:32 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:42:32 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090912171242i50e2cc90g3cb7b832d2ba5e20@mail.gmail.com> http://www.tamayatech.com/parts.php?g=RK05KAC there they have one for $265 also here they have a whole list here http://www.tamayatech.com/partsindex/dec_055.htm On 12/17/09, Brad Parker wrote: > > > On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > this says they have one for sale >> >> http://www.com-com.co.uk/HP/parts/RK05K.ihtml?pp=1~source=com-com.co.uk >> > > I asked and they want $600. > > I'm almost tempted, but I thought I'd ask here. Does anyone have a "red > pack" in > very good shape they'd sell for say, $250? (which to me seems like a more > fair price) > > Please feel free to chime in on what the going rate for such a thing should > be. > I have no idea, since I've only seen one and they seem slightly on the > hard-to-find side. > > In a perfect world I'd like to find one which is excellent shape, but I am > willing to clean > it it (which has been much discussed as of late). > > -brad > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 17 15:25:29 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:25:29 -0800 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: <4B212B34.6070003@hachti.de> <0B5EE3A3-01F7-4033-8194-979B038FFFEF@shiresoft.com> <6d6501090912142128s4198d947ydcccd57fd575fe9@mail.gmail.com> (sfid-20091215_002944_074034_CBD31600) Message-ID: <4B2AA1C9.40404@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/09 12:01 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > > Does anyone have a "red > pack" in > very good shape they'd sell for say, $250? (which to me seems like a > more fair price) > I have a few. I haven't evaluated their condition. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 17 17:03:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:03:04 -0800 Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: References: <4B28DB59.10883.DBF2A4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 16, 9 01:06:33 pm, Message-ID: <4B2A4828.25444.12FC503@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2009 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds mostly analoge (there are very few digital ICs in circular > metal cans -- I said 'few' rather than none, because I am old enough > to remember at least one RTL series in such cans :-))( Possible the > head amplifiers, etc? I recall that DTL (and early ECL) came in TO-100s. Somewhere, I've still got a few Fairchild 8-bit addressable memories in TO-100. I believe that the Motoroal HEP mWRTL kit came in TO-100 packages. The second card is labeled "READ/WRITE AMPL. 30 IPS, 4TRK". The TO- 100's are MC1710G (differential voltage comparator). There are 4 uA709 op-amps on the thing. The frontmost PCB is labeled "SERVO CONTROL, 30 IPS." and has 4 uA741 op amps on it, a couple of LM321H (TO-100) preamps, a couple of TO-3 darlingtons (MJ900, MJ1000) and an LM308 op-amp. But there are 6 trimpots, with no labeling other than "R9, R10, etc." which might be a problem if adjustment were called for. Comparing the interface connections with QIC-36 shows that it's not QIC-36 (e.g. Drive select address lines connected to 74368 outputs, etc.). I thought the drive electronics looked a little to dumb to be a QIC- 36 interface. Any other ideas? Thanks, Chuck From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu Dec 17 17:15:36 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:15:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board Message-ID: <922864.98897.qm@web31906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe you could contact the guy who donated one to the hp museum and get it back. On wait, that's you. What happened there? (if I may ask) http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=909 Regards, Jim From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 17 17:47:10 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:47:10 +0100 Subject: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board Message-ID: <200912172346.nBHNkqBa072856@smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl> I donated the picture , I use my own for measurements and want to keep it in my HP-collection. Like I said, I've a customer who needs one to get his 3D-measure machine online again . -Rik -----Original Message----- From: "James Gessling" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 12/18/2009 0:15 Subject: Re: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board Maybe you could contact the guy who donated one to the hp museum and get it back. On wait, that's you. What happened there? (if I may ask) http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=909 Regards, Jim From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Thu Dec 17 18:55:45 2009 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:55:45 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27.8C.15201.B03DA2B4@hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com> OT Circa 1985, I used a program from Oswego software to read and write HP disks in a IBM PC. IBM PC File Copy H5P 1002 rev 1.1 oswego software oswego, il 60543 At 02:21 PM 12/17/2009, you wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > > > I can;t see why that would be a problem. The HP protocols are all block, > > > not file, baeed (unlike the Commodore drives for the PET). The drive > > > doesn't have any idea what OS is talking to the it, it has no > > > understanding for the directory or the filesystem. > > > > While Commodore disks do indeed have a firmware "DOS" that handles > > file-level access and formatted directory listings and such, the > > firmware fully supports block-level access by the B-R/B-W (or U1/U2) > > commands. Infocom used that method for their VM implementation for > >Sure. And there were also commands (which I have used) to read/write >locations of the interface processor address space (at least on the >IEEE-488 units which have 2 processors in them, one to handle the >interface, the other to handle the disk data). > > > their Z-machine (once you used "CBM DOS" to read in a ~700 byte > > bootstrap loader). > > > > It's a fully-manual scheme - you tell the disk drive to read track X, > > sector Y into a buffer, then issue a Memory-Read command to pull the > > bytes out, or Memory-Write to stuff bytes in, then tell the drive to > > write that buffer back out to wherever on the media you prefer. > >My point was that on the HP drives, _all_ you have is the block access. >The HP drives have no internal filesystem (the commodore ones do, but as >you say you don't have to use it). > > > > >-tony Jim e-mail: JeLynch at stny.rr.com website: www.gluons.us From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 17 19:00:59 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:00:59 -0500 Subject: Micral V Message-ID: <4B2AD44B.8080506@snarc.net> Anyone know good sources of information about the Micral V computer (circa 1978) other than the manual on Bitsavers? Google shows all kinds of information about the original Micral (1973) but I can't find anything about this later model. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 17 19:51:49 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:51:49 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200912172051.49906.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 17 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > The thing is that I suspoect (without reading the data sheets) that > most microcontrollers can't meet the HPIB spec on their port pins, > you need to put something between the port and the 24 pin > microribbon connector. Might as well be one of the chips designed > for the purpose. > > In any case I have an objection to linking an expensive (probably) > custom-programmed (certianly) part to an external connector that's > going to be linked to $deity-knows-what. Much easier to replace a > buffer chip if somethign goes wrong than replace the > microocontroller and have to program it again. I see "meeting specs" as a potential problem (though if it's the only device on the bus besides the controller, , you can probably "get away" with it). However, the microcontroller may easily be less expensive to replace than the HPIB buffer (especially if you compare the price for each new/NOS). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 17 20:48:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:48:37 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <20091217115651.X64332@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B275951.6821.227CAC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B27AF2A.17591.171D493@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091217115651.X64332@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B2A7D05.4054.1FE43CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2009 at 12:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you were to set up a store, there would probably be plenty of > demand for them, from people who would buy dozens at a time. They > must have a helluva lot of EPROMs, etc. Lately, around here, the dodge has been to find an absentee landlord with a house to rent and convert the whole thing to a grow operation. The last one that local law enforcement busted had no one living in the house but the "farmer' bought a car to park in front of the house and paid someone to periodically move it. The local electrical utility eventually got suspicious. A quick check turned up 3 other similar operations run by the same guy. A quick perusal of the local CL shows a couple of current listings offering 1000W 145K lumen "expanded spectrum" bulbs and fixtures for "agriculture". Those must be some mighty expensive carrots. But they'd probably erase a bunch of EPROMs pretty fast. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 21:00:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:00:30 -0500 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: <4B2A7D05.4054.1FE43CE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B275951.6821.227CAC@cclist.sydex.com> <4B27AF2A.17591.171D493@cclist.sydex.com> <20091217115651.X64332@shell.lmi.net> <4B2A7D05.4054.1FE43CE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Those must be some mighty expensive carrots. Tomatoes, not carrots. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 17 21:41:31 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:41:31 -0800 Subject: UV light question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:14 AM -0800 12/15/09, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >Hey! I'm looking at doing some single sided pcb's. From what I can tell, if >I want the pre-sensitized board to expose in a reasonable amount of time, I >am going to need to make a UV box to expose it with. I could apparently use >a regular fluorescent bulb but it will take 30-50 minutes to be ready for >developing.... And with cats, dogs and teenagers (and a friends 3 year old >many days) that is way too long to assume something is going to be left >without being bumped or knocked over :) > >So, anyone have a good source for UV bulbs between 350 and 440 nm ? At a >reasonable price? I imagine these would do the trick? They even have some fairly large UV Boxes. http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/home.php?cat=17 D***! Where did I put that UV box I bought on eBay a couple years ago for erasing EPROMs? That might work for 4x5 Cyanotypes and Calotypes! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Dec 17 21:54:23 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:54:23 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory cells were functional in? ISTR that one of the lower capacity ram chips were failed higher capacity chips that only half of the chip worked. On 12/17/09 11:11 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> Thirded. ;) I've replaced my share of these chips as well. > > What is it with the 2114? I've replaced them in devices from many > manufacturers, using ICs from many manufacturers, and of different ages. > Some plastic DIP, some ceramic. Why is this chip so darn unreliable? > > I could accept that one batch from one manufacturer could have problems, > but there seems to be nothing in common between the ones I've had to change > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 17 22:02:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:02:08 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36232CD8-FFDA-49D5-96F3-8A2AD156893C@neurotica.com> On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:54 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory > cells were > functional in? ISTR that one of the lower capacity ram chips were > failed > higher capacity chips that only half of the chip worked. No, the 2114 is a 1Kx4 SRAM, while the 4116 is a 16Kx1 DRAM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 22:09:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:09:03 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory cells were > functional in? ?ISTR that one of the lower capacity ram chips were failed > higher capacity chips that only half of the chip worked. There definitely were chips of that nature sold, but I don't think they were ever badged "2114". Perhaps 4108s? ISTR you had to specify high or low parts. The ones we have been discussion are definitely mid-1970s-technology 1Kx4 SRAMs in the 150ns-250ns range. 18 pin DIPs. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 17 22:47:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:47:54 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B2A98FA.8653.26B7963@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2009 at 19:54, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory > cells were functional in? ISTR that one of the lower capacity ram > chips were failed higher capacity chips that only half of the chip > worked. No, the 8K chips were the Intel 2109--half of a 2117. They had a two- piece part number; the second half was S6xxx. If the xxx was even you set address bit 14 high, otherwise you set it low. I probably still have a bunch of these--they were castoffs from work when we got some "real" 16K DRAMs, I got to keep the '09s. Curiously most of the 09s worked just fine in full 16K mode and passed every diagnostic I could throw at them. So calling them "bad" was perhaps a little misleading. It could well have been that half the chip didn't meet specs. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 17 23:07:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:07:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <4B2A98FA.8653.26B7963@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B2A98FA.8653.26B7963@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091217210445.J83307@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I probably still have a bunch of these--they were castoffs from work > when we got some "real" 16K DRAMs, I got to keep the '09s. Curiously > most of the 09s worked just fine in full 16K mode and passed every > diagnostic I could throw at them. So calling them "bad" was perhaps > a little misleading. It could well have been that half the chip > didn't meet specs. Let's not do like Gibson/Spinrite. Perhaps the manufacturer had some test for the chips that was more rigorous than what we have. If they say that their product is bad, I'll believe them, even if it "tests good" most of the time. From g-wright at att.net Thu Dec 17 23:33:13 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:33:13 +0000 Subject: pdp 8a prom images ??? where ??? Message-ID: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I just did a search for pdp 8A prom images and could not find any. I'm sure I just looked in all of the wrong places Any help, Looking for 158a2 and 159a2 - Jerry From g-wright at att.net Thu Dec 17 23:45:29 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:45:29 +0000 Subject: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape Message-ID: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I'm back to try this again. I need a boot tape for a HP 3000 Micro GX machine. Does anyone have a working machine or a tape. I can use almost any media. I had 2 list members say they would help but they seem to be too busy and its been 6 months. I would really like to get this going. Thanks, Jerry g-wright at att.net From g-wright at att.net Thu Dec 17 23:54:02 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:54:02 +0000 Subject: Tek 4404 computer service Manuals needed, again Message-ID: <121820090554.24426.4B2B18F9000D793300005F6A22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I tried this last week and can't believe no one out there has any info on this ??? These where at one point some what common with the Smalltalk folks. So I will try again I believe there were 4404 4405 and 4406 models. mine is a 4404 Thanks, Jerry From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 00:28:56 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:28:56 -0800 Subject: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape In-Reply-To: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: What exactly do you need? I have an HP 3000 927 (I believe, I need to double check), and I have backup tapes for it (containing the OS) on DAT. If that would help, let me know. Mark On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:45 PM, wrote: > I'm back to try this again. I need a boot tape for a ?HP 3000 > Micro GX machine. Does anyone have a working machine > or a tape. I can use almost any media. I had 2 list members > say they would help but they seem to be too busy and its > been 6 months. I would really like to get this going. > > Thanks, Jerry > g-wright at att.net > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 18 00:48:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:48:54 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <20091217210445.J83307@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B2A98FA.8653.26B7963@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091217210445.J83307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B2AB556.8667.2DA4278@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Dec 2009 at 21:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > Let's not do like Gibson/Spinrite. > Perhaps the manufacturer had some test for the chips that was more > rigorous than what we have. If they say that their product is bad, > I'll believe them, even if it "tests good" most of the time. Let's put this in its historical context. When Intel started making 16K 16-pin DRAM, yields weren't terrific, so they sold a limited number of "half-good" parts--2109s early on, probably to mark their territory. About 1978-79, the US got in a trade spat with Japan over DRAM "dumping" and the supply of DRAM abruptly dried up (pesaging other similar periods yet to come). You couldn't find 16K DRAM for any price in quantity. There was at least one break-in for the sole purpose of stealing DRAM that I'm aware of, nearly putting the firm out of business.. (Later, there was a hijacking of a truck carrying mostly CPU chips, but that's another story). The Mercury-News archives doubtless has the story somewhere. So, given the situation, sifting through 8K DRAM to find decent 16K parts was quite reasonable. I recall that our 2109s were tendered somewhat apologetically by our Intel sales rep when we asked for 2117 DRAM engineering samples. These were the purple ceramic carriers with gold lid version. Plastic was later. When the antidumping order was lifted, we received a bunch of NEC uPD416s. We were surprised at how much better they were than the Intel parts (I still have those too). --Chuck From rikbos at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 17 07:52:26 2009 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:52:26 +0100 Subject: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board Message-ID: <0F07C5A01B5F4A93A9BB3EC34E321F48@xp1800> Hi, I'm in the market for a HP 82324A/B/C co-processor board, a customer of us is using this for het 3D-measurement equipment. His one burned out a few days ago, so he is searching for a working one. If you have one and want to part from it, contact me off-list. At hp-fix_at_xs4all_dot_nl -Rik From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Dec 17 13:40:49 2009 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:40:49 -0500 Subject: FS: Iomega Imation JAZ LS120 DC2120 Message-ID: <368212.96793.qm@smtp104.prem.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have the following hard to find older items for sale. half price for members of Classic Computers List Iomega ZIP 100 drives with power supply & Cable (2) $25 each IOMEGA JAZ & ZIP Disks One is new and rest have data on them. Iomega 1GB JAZ disks in individual holders formatted for IBM Compatibles (4)......$6 each IOMEGA JAZ empty Holder...................$1 ZIP Disk plastic holder holds six disks.$2 Iomega ZIP 100 in plastic case (13) formatted for IBM Compatibles...$5 each (3 for $12) Iomega MAC ZIP 100 Tools disk (2).....$4 each Iomega MAC ZIP 100 Disk (3)...........$3 each Iomega ZIP MAC 100 in shrink wrap.....$4 3M XIMAT DC2120 Disk New - $5 Imation Super LS120 Disks (6) $4 each (3 for $10) From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 13:41:52 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:41:52 -0600 Subject: DECUS Catalogs for PDP software Message-ID: <2c768b1e0912171141u417f5639ga6b1002f7f8e9b8a@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone from here have scans or originals of program documents from DECUS Catalogs for PDP software from the 60's and 70's? The IGDA-Preservation SIG is trying to track down dates of publication for some of the game software listed. Thanks! Marty From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Dec 17 13:42:36 2009 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:42:36 -0500 Subject: FS: Iomega Imation JAZ LS120 DC2120 Message-ID: <910313.510.qm@smtp106.prem.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Iomega ZIP 100 drives with power supply & Cable (2) $25 each IOMEGA JAZ & ZIP Disks One is new and rest have data on them. Iomega 1GB JAZ disks in individual holders formatted for IBM Compatibles (4)......$6 each IOMEGA JAZ empty Holder...................$1 ZIP Disk plastic holder holds six disks.$2 Iomega ZIP 100 in plastic case (13) formatted for IBM Compatibles...$5 each (3 for $12) Iomega MAC ZIP 100 Tools disk (2).....$4 each Iomega MAC ZIP 100 Disk (3)...........$3 each Iomega ZIP MAC 100 in shrink wrap.....$4 3M XIMAT DC2120 Disk New - $5 Imation Super LS120 Disks (6) $4 each (3 for $10) www.ehrich.com my sale items on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/shops/geneehrich From steerex at ccvn.com Thu Dec 17 16:10:43 2009 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:10:43 -0500 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available References: Message-ID: <001701ca7f65$c6fc04f0$0301a8c0@win2k> > > > > > I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a > > > HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB > > > buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF > > > card. Make it 'open( and I'll build several... > > > > What does a HPIB buffer contains that cannot be reproduced with > > digital/analog circuitry? :oO > About two years ago, I did some work on such a project. I built a very crude serial -> HPIB "controller" using an AVR microprocessor and a couple of interface chips. I did not use a HPIB 9914 or other controller. All the logic was done in software. I bitbanged everything and it sorta worked. :-) I was able perform simple HPIB operations without too much trouble. One of the things I did was too interface a HPIB multimeter to my PC using the homemade controller as an interface. Sorry but, I have long since lost the work that I had done. It took some searching but, I did find the correct interface (line driver) chips. The device ids escape me but, they might have been something like 75160's. They are just simple line buffers. The biggest issue that I ran into was a timing issue. When a device (talker) sends a stream of data it just pumps out the data. The listener is supposed to use the control lines (DAV, NRFD, etc) to pace the data. Without pacing or some kind of buffer, the talker will send data faster than a bit-banged micro can process it. My microprocessor was not able to keep up with some devices.. For the multimeter this was not a problem. I attached a HPIB bus analyzer in parallel with the controller and meter and used the analyzer in "slow" mode to pace the data. It worked just fine with the meter. I tried it with a tape drive but it didn't work. The data transfer was too slow and it kept timing out. To make this work correctly, I think you would need some hardware "glue" that would detect each data word and then immediately assert a NRFD. A few microseconds later it would release the line and allow the next data word to be transmitted. This hold-off would need to be just long enough to allow the micro to process the data. Something as simple as a one-shot might do the trick. See yas, SteveRob From lee_courtney at acm.org Fri Dec 18 01:27:51 2009 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:27:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape In-Reply-To: References: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <256806.50061.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Boot/Load tapes for the 927 and GX are not the same, despite both system running "MPE". The GX is a 16-bit stack architecture machine running MPE-V. The 927 is a 32-bit RISC architecture (AKA HPPA-RISC) machine with a completely different implementation (for the most part) of MPE. There is a 16-bit emulation mode on the 927, but you won't be able to use OS tapes from one system on the other. Are you looking for a cartridge install tape or a 1/2" round reel tape for your system. Contact me off-list and I may be able to point you in the right direction. Cheers, Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Mark Davidson To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, December 17, 2009 10:28:56 PM Subject: Re: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape What exactly do you need? I have an HP 3000 927 (I believe, I need to double check), and I have backup tapes for it (containing the OS) on DAT. If that would help, let me know. Mark On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:45 PM, wrote: > I'm back to try this again. I need a boot tape for a HP 3000 > Micro GX machine. Does anyone have a working machine > or a tape. I can use almost any media. I had 2 list members > say they would help but they seem to be too busy and its > been 6 months. I would really like to get this going. > > Thanks, Jerry > g-wright at att.net > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 04:09:10 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:09:10 -0300 Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available References: <001701ca7f65$c6fc04f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: > To make this work correctly, I think you would need some hardware "glue" > that would detect each data word and then immediately assert a NRFD. A few > microseconds later it would release the line and allow the next data word > to > be transmitted. This hold-off would need to be just long enough to allow > the > micro to process the data. Something as simple as a one-shot might do the > trick. Or use a faster processor :) Or a CPLD comes to mind :) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Dec 18 04:12:18 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:12:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds mostly analoge (there are very few digital ICs in circular > metal cans -- I said 'few' rather than none, because I am old enough to > remember at least one RTL series in such cans :-))( Possible the head > amplifiers, etc? Old shift-registers are in metal cans, too. Christian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 18 04:40:56 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:40:56 +0100 Subject: Has to go : DEC 3000 Message-ID: Needing space etc... So the DEC 3000 with OpenBSD on it has to go. It has a CDROM and DDS-tape unit with 3 or 4 'small' scsi drives in it. Please contact off-list If there are no takers I'll part it out and scrap what I don't need. -Rik O yes, it's located in the Netherlands near Groningen. From remalone at btinternet.com Fri Dec 18 05:37:13 2009 From: remalone at btinternet.com (Richard E.Malone) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:37:13 -0000 Subject: Multitech MPF1 Plus. Documentation. In-Reply-To: <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> Message-ID: <05b801ca7fd6$71a02510$54e06f30$@com> Hello all, I have been a member of this group for a long time and have great respect for anyone trying to preserve early computers. I have been very lucky to buy an original Multitech MicroProfessor Plus. It came with I/O, Eprom and Printer Boards. The problem is "No Documentation". I have done all the usual places and written a polite letter to Multitech, some weeks ago, but have not had a reply. Can anyone help please? Kind regards and season's greetings to all, Richard {UK} From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 18 10:25:55 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:25:55 +0100 Subject: Has to go : DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <952E85CE2BA248C6B99E29D27F764BF5@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: vrijdag 18 december 2009 11:41 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: Has to go : DEC 3000 > > Needing space etc... > So the DEC 3000 with OpenBSD on it has to go. > It has a CDROM and DDS-tape unit with 3 or 4 'small' scsi > drives in it. > Please contact off-list > If there are no takers I'll part it out and scrap what I don't need. > > -Rik > > O yes, it's located in the Netherlands near Groningen. > I forgot to tell it's a DEC 3000 800.. So it's big and heavy. -Rik From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 11:28:46 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:28:46 -0800 Subject: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape In-Reply-To: <256806.50061.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <256806.50061.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oops, I thought I had replied privately. In any case, I do appreciate the clarification. :) On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Lee Courtney (ACM) wrote: > Boot/Load tapes for the 927 and GX are not the same, despite both system running "MPE". The GX is a 16-bit stack architecture machine running MPE-V. The 927 is a 32-bit RISC architecture (AKA HPPA-RISC) machine with a completely different implementation (for the most part) of MPE. There is a 16-bit emulation mode on the 927, but you won't be able to use OS tapes from one system on the other. > > Are you looking for a cartridge install tape or a 1/2" round reel tape for your system. Contact me off-list and I may be able to point you in the right direction. > > Cheers, > > ?Lee Courtney > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Davidson > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Thu, December 17, 2009 10:28:56 PM > Subject: Re: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape > > What exactly do you need? ?I have an HP 3000 927 (I believe, I need to > double check), and I have backup tapes for it (containing the OS) on > DAT. ?If that would help, let me know. > > Mark > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:45 PM, ? wrote: >> I'm back to try this again. I need a boot tape for a ?HP 3000 >> Micro GX machine. Does anyone have a working machine >> or a tape. I can use almost any media. I had 2 list members >> say they would help but they seem to be too busy and its >> been 6 months. I would really like to get this going. >> >> Thanks, Jerry >> g-wright at att.net >> >> > From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Fri Dec 18 11:57:07 2009 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:57:07 -0000 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking at their advertisement it seems that the alignment pack is 'price on application' and a standard ('refurbished' whatever that means!) pack is an astonishing $265! On 17th December Chris Halarewich said: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > http://www.tamayatech.com/parts.php?g=RK05KAC > > there they have one for $265 also here they have a whole list here > > http://www.tamayatech.com/partsindex/dec_055.htm > Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 18 12:08:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:08:44 -0500 Subject: RK05 alignment - without alignment pack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Refurbished" means "used" to nearly everyone now. Makes me wanna puke. -Dave On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Robert Adamson wrote: > Looking at their advertisement it seems that the alignment pack is > 'price on > application' and a standard ('refurbished' whatever that means!) > pack is an > astonishing $265! > > On 17th December Chris Halarewich said: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> http://www.tamayatech.com/parts.php?g=RK05KAC >> >> there they have one for $265 also here they have a whole list here >> >> http://www.tamayatech.com/partsindex/dec_055.htm >> > Bob > > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 18 12:57:54 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:57:54 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: <20091217210445.J83307@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4B2A98FA.8653.26B7963@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091217210445.J83307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:07:29 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up > > On Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I probably still have a bunch of these--they were castoffs from work > > when we got some "real" 16K DRAMs, I got to keep the '09s. Curiously > > most of the 09s worked just fine in full 16K mode and passed every > > diagnostic I could throw at them. So calling them "bad" was perhaps > > a little misleading. It could well have been that half the chip > > didn't meet specs. > > Let's not do like Gibson/Spinrite. > Perhaps the manufacturer had some test for the chips that was more > rigorous than what we have. If they say that their product is bad, I'll > believe them, even if it "tests good" most of the time. > > > Hi I recall when 2716s first came out. Intel got premium prices for them. They had a number of half bad parts that they labeled as 2508s ( not to be confused with TI's 2508s ). These also had the high/low selector in the name. Over the years, competition and demand brought the price of 2716s down. There was no increased demand for the 2508s so their price remained high ( even higher than a 2716 ). Towards the end, 2508s were in fact perfectly good 2716s that were relabeled as 2508s. It was actually more expensive to have a different flow process for the 2508s than to just test them all as good 2716s. At the time that I recall seeing an Intel price list, the 2716s were ~$5 while the 2508s were at ~$32. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 13:07:25 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:07:25 -0600 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: <4B2A98FA.8653.26B7963@cclist.sydex.com> <20091217210445.J83307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912181107k5c4383dfoc040c7ca166e9548@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:57 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Towards the end, 2508s were in fact > perfectly good 2716s that were relabeled as 2508s. > It was actually more expensive to have a different flow process for > the 2508s than to just test them all as good 2716s. > Intel did this sort of thing with pentium 2s (or was it celerons?) at one point. iirc, the stepping number was SL2W8. It turned out that the "slower" pentium 2s were just relabeled copies of the faster one. It made the overclockers specifically ask for that stepping number. I guess their yields were too good for the marketing department. brian From paco.linux at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 13:15:04 2009 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:15:04 +0100 Subject: Has to go : DEC 3000 In-Reply-To: <952E85CE2BA248C6B99E29D27F764BF5@xp1800> References: <952E85CE2BA248C6B99E29D27F764BF5@xp1800> Message-ID: Hi: Ok, thanks very much Paco On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > > Verzonden: vrijdag 18 december 2009 11:41 > > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Onderwerp: Has to go : DEC 3000 > > > > Needing space etc... > > So the DEC 3000 with OpenBSD on it has to go. > > It has a CDROM and DDS-tape unit with 3 or 4 'small' scsi > > drives in it. > > Please contact off-list > > If there are no takers I'll part it out and scrap what I don't need. > > > > -Rik > > > > O yes, it's located in the Netherlands near Groningen. > > > > I forgot to tell it's a DEC 3000 800.. > So it's big and heavy. > > -Rik > > > -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Dec 18 13:17:48 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:17:48 -0500 Subject: DECUS Catalogs for PDP software (Martin Goldberg) Message-ID: Marty writes: > Does anyone from here have scans or originals of program documents > from DECUS Catalogs for PDP software from the 60's and 70's? The > IGDA-Preservation SIG is trying to track down dates of publication for > some of the game software listed. Paul Dundas has many chunks of scans from DECUS stuff including some of the original paper documentation. I was very impressed when poking around his collection and found references to SCURT. It was like Homer finding the picture of himself as "Mr. Sparkle" on the Japanese detergent box :-) All of the PDP-10 10-LIB and 20-LIB tapes are online at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/, much of the low numbered stuff actually comes from PDP-6's. Electronic documentation is often there. In many cases you can trust the timestamp on the tape listings. The PDP-11 SIG tapes are online at ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/ , by the point something hit a SIG tape it usually has the documentation included as an electronic file. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 18 13:18:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:18:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: <001701ca7f65$c6fc04f0$0301a8c0@win2k> from "Steve Robertson" at Dec 17, 9 05:10:43 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > > > I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a > > > > HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB > > > > buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF > > > > card. Make it 'open( and I'll build several... > > > > > > What does a HPIB buffer contains that cannot be reproduced with > > > digital/analog circuitry? :oO > > > > About two years ago, I did some work on such a project. I built a very crude > serial -> HPIB "controller" using an AVR microprocessor and a couple of It's not hard to make a GPIB interface without using a special decoder chip. I uilt a triival HPIB-Centronics interface (to run a parallel printer from a PERQ) usign a couple og 16V8 GALs and a few TTL buffers. And it's been doneby bit-banging many times. IIRC most of the handshakers are 'interlocked' so the software can take arbitrarily long to respond to a change of state of one of the signals. There is oen (I think only one) case where the timing is critical, which may ddd a couple of gates to the design. > interface chips. I did not use a HPIB 9914 or other controller. All the > logic was done in software. I bitbanged everything and it sorta worked. :-) All the Commodore GPIB disk drives, printers (and indeed PETs) bit-banged the interface. Commodore never used any of the speical controller chips AFAIK. Mind you, the Commoodore GPIB is a little 'odd' when it comes to timing (I've seen 3rd party devices designed to link to PETs that work fine for that but which won't work on amost other GPIB systems). Even HP bit-banged it sometimes. The 82169 HPIL-HPIB translator uses an 8049 and no HPIB interface chip. The other 40 pin package on the PCB is an HP buffer chip with almost no internal logic. > It took some searching but, I did find the correct interface (line driver) > chips. The device ids escape me but, they might have been something like > 75160's. They are just simple line buffers. THere are several series of thise, I have no idea which, if any, are still current parts (If I was designing something new, I'd want to use a part that was still in full production, of course) Intel made the 8298 (which I know very little about). Motorola made the 3446, 3447 and 3448. Those 3 are quad uffers with different arrangements of transmit-anable lines, etc. TI made the 75160 (octal data line buffer), 75161 (Octal control line buffer for either devices or, IIRC, controllers in a signle-controller system) and 75162 (octal control line buffer in mulitple-controller systems). I've used the Motorola and TI parts, and have data sheets. > > The biggest issue that I ran into was a timing issue. When a device (talker) That may be the case I am thinking of. Maybe looking at a PET scheamtic would help, presumalby it can handle this provlem. > For the multimeter this was not a problem. I attached a HPIB bus analyzer in The HP59401 analyser is a fun toy, but I don't want it on the bus all the time :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 18 13:22:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:22:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: <4B2A4828.25444.12FC503@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 17, 9 03:03:04 pm Message-ID: > The second card is labeled "READ/WRITE AMPL. 30 IPS, 4TRK". The TO- FWIW, the original QIC11 format was a 4-track serpentine (the 9 track formats just interleaved new tracks with the original 4). And 30 ips was one of the standard speeds (the otuer standard one was 90 ips IIRC). My guess is this thing uses a stnadard tape format even if the interface is custom. > 100's are MC1710G (differential voltage comparator). There are 4 > uA709 op-amps on the thing. > > The frontmost PCB is labeled "SERVO CONTROL, 30 IPS." and has 4 uA741 > op amps on it, a couple of LM321H (TO-100) preamps, a couple of TO-3 > darlingtons (MJ900, MJ1000) and an LM308 op-amp. But there are 6 > trimpots, with no labeling other than "R9, R10, etc." which might be > a problem if adjustment were called for. Do not tweak :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 18 13:23:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:23:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board In-Reply-To: <200912172346.nBHNkqBa072856@smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Dec 18, 9 00:47:10 am Message-ID: > > I donated the picture , I use my own for measurements and want to keep it i= > n my HP-collection. > Like I said, I've a customer who needs one to get his 3D-measure machine on= > line again . How much custom stuff is there on this board? Since you have one (and presumably could copy EPROMs, etc) which you could use as a reference, can't the customer's one be repaired? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 18 13:30:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:30:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 17, 9 07:54:23 pm Message-ID: > > Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory cells were No. The 4116 is a 16K+1 DRAM (so the half-good one is an 8K*1 DRAM) in a 16 pin DIP. The 2114 is a 1K*4 SRAM in an 18 pin DIP. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 18 13:28:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:28:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB disc drive emulation program available In-Reply-To: <200912172051.49906.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 17, 9 08:51:49 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 17 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > The thing is that I suspoect (without reading the data sheets) that > > most microcontrollers can't meet the HPIB spec on their port pins, > > you need to put something between the port and the 24 pin > > microribbon connector. Might as well be one of the chips designed > > for the purpose. > > > > In any case I have an objection to linking an expensive (probably) > > custom-programmed (certianly) part to an external connector that's > > going to be linked to $deity-knows-what. Much easier to replace a > > buffer chip if somethign goes wrong than replace the > > microocontroller and have to program it again. > > I see "meeting specs" as a potential problem (though if it's the only > device on the bus besides the controller, , you can probably "get away" 'Getting away with it' is something I will do for quick hacks on my own bench, but not for stuff likely to be used by others, or stuff I depend on. > with it). However, the microcontroller may easily be less expensive to > replace than the HPIB buffer (especially if you compare the price for > each new/NOS). Possibly. I said 'easier', not 'cheaper' though. The point being that the buffer chip doesn't have to be programemd, so it can be replaced by somebody who doesn't have a programmer for whatever microcontroller is used. Most modern microcotnrollers (at least ones with enough I/O for this) come in a surface-mount package, the buffers certainly were available in DIPs (and could be socketed). Repair cost != component cost... -tony From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Dec 18 14:04:55 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:04:55 -0800 Subject: DECUS Catalogs for PDP software (Martin Goldberg) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:17 PM -0500 12/18/09, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >Marty writes: >> Does anyone from here have scans or originals of program documents >> from DECUS Catalogs for PDP software from the 60's and 70's? The >> IGDA-Preservation SIG is trying to track down dates of publication for >> some of the game software listed. > >Paul Dundas has many chunks of scans from DECUS stuff including some >of the original paper documentation. I was very impressed when >poking around his collection and found references to SCURT. It was >like Homer finding the picture of himself as "Mr. Sparkle" on the >Japanese detergent box :-) Er, sorry Tim, it's John :-) I have more unarchived DECUS stuff [though not that much more], but there are other things in the front of the queue. Thanks, John From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 18 14:29:39 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:29:39 +0100 Subject: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board In-Reply-To: References: <200912172346.nBHNkqBa072856@smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos"at Dec 18, 9 00:47:10 am Message-ID: <526FBF037F774AB1819E7F3DAC638F62@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 18 december 2009 20:23 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted : HP 82324 language co-processor board > > > > > I donated the picture , I use my own for measurements and > want to keep > > it i= n my HP-collection. > > Like I said, I've a customer who needs one to get his 3D-measure > > machine on= line again . > > How much custom stuff is there on this board? Since you have > one (and presumably could copy EPROMs, etc) which you could > use as a reference, can't the customer's one be repaired? > > -tony I didn't see the dead one yet it's in Portugal and being shipped to me. But the board contains about 8 PAL's in PLCC housing, soldered of cause. Memory buffers etc are no problem but the PAL's are because I have no intension to get them off my board. The other option is porting it to HTBasic, the biggest problem there is MSI. HTBasic handles mass storage commands in a different way as RMB. The program is written in RMB and calls a few overlays from ASCII files. HTBasic also makes different use of BDAT files. And a lot of undocumented basic code......... -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 18 15:42:17 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:42:17 -0500 Subject: pdp 8a prom images ??? where ??? In-Reply-To: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <29475106-4043-492C-A1C6-5A4F08F77751@neurotica.com> On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:33 AM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I just did a search for pdp 8A prom images and could not find > any. I'm sure I just looked in all of the wrong places > > Any help, Looking for 158a2 and 159a2 I'm hoping to get an 8/a next week; if I do, and if they're socketed, I'll read them in for you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 16:15:13 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:15:13 -0500 Subject: pdp 8a prom images ??? where ??? In-Reply-To: <29475106-4043-492C-A1C6-5A4F08F77751@neurotica.com> References: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <29475106-4043-492C-A1C6-5A4F08F77751@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:33 AM, g-wright at att.net wrote: >> >> I just did a search for pdp 8A prom images and could not find >> any. I'm sure I just looked in all of the wrong places >> >> Any help, Looking for 158a2 and 159a2 > > ?I'm hoping to get an 8/a next week; if I do, and if they're socketed, I'll > read them in for you. I look forward to any PROM dumps (and should probably check my own boards to see what I have), but there are 2-3 common sets documented in the literature that cover various device combinations (RX8E, RL8A, RK8E, PTR, DECtape, etc) ISTR there's only 4 bootstraps per PROM set, so if you have a complex setup, it's not unlikely you may want to boot from two different devices that don't happen to be in the same set. I'd quote chapter and verse on which part numbers contain which bootstraps, but you'll find the definitive answers in the Small Computer Handbook (under KM8AA) and possibly in a table in the margins of the printset. If you don't have an RL8A, it's likely that the older PROM set will be exactly what you need. If you do want to boot an RL01 and you have other system devices, I'd say it's likely that you will want two sets of PROMs on hand. -ethan From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Dec 18 08:34:41 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:34:41 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation program available) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> Tony Duell ????????: >>> I wonder why HP went away from the 9914 in the drive units (all later=20 >>> drives seem to use either the 8291 or the Medusa) while keeping it in=20 >>> the host computers.=20 Perhaps the 8291 used less code on the microcontrollers? Or perhaps it could do seomthing on it's own, unlike the 9914, such as assert NRDF when it's databuffer was full? Come to think of it, wasn't the 8291 almost "smart", like a hard coded microcontroller? > I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a > HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB > buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF > card. Make it 'open( and I'll build several... Or even a SATA, PATA, USB storage interface. Such a stand alone emulator would be very useful. There's a fair description of the Amigo protocol floating around as well as the CS80 spec as a PDF on Bitsavers. Since all the HP drive controllers are built around Intel microcontrollers, shouldn't be too hard to use a modern very high speed 8048/52 compatible. One advantage would be the potential ability for one unit to accept more than one address. Xebec published some source and/or pseudocode for their controller board micros, which might help make things easier. > I have never actually seen this Xebec controller in an HP drive unit, but > I'll believe it exists. I've actually seen just one inside an older HP unit at Halted's. A very poor photo of this board is in the hard disc tech/service manual, on page 1-8 of the service manual and page 32 of the Bitsavers PDF ... (as 9133_9134_9135_9121_9122_ServiceDocumentation_509pages_1985.pdf), as Fig. 1-3, along with a very brief description. If I can find my pictures I'll put them up somewhere. I have two Xebec controllers, one of which, IIRC, is attached to one Seagate 5Mb and one Shugart 5Mb, and the other controller attached to one Shugart 10Mb. One or two more controllers are not being used at the moment. I have several different ROMs for them. It took some experimentation to get them working right without docs or any clues from anyone. I also have one 9133XV with a bad floppy controller. > I can;t see why that would be a problem. The HP protocols are all block, > not file, baeed (unlike the Commodore drives for the PET). The drive > doesn't have any idea what OS is talking to the it, it has no > understanding for the directory or the filesystem. OK, then I was given the wrong info about them. Seems a waste of processing power to use block transfers instead of letting the drive handle all that. Drive capacity also need not be limited by the host's design. >> (I'd like to find out how to format discs on a PC for use in the 9134 >> drives. I could probably use bigger discs if they could be formatted >> properly.) > > I wouldn't bet on it. I am pretty sure the later drives, at least (9144H, > etc) check that the hard drive actually matches what is expected (I have > been told the cotnroller tries to select non-exixstant heads and makes > sure the drive asserts the erorr line, things like that). It would be an experiment, mostly. It would probably be easier to edit or tweak a disc on a PC, as well. But I would like to have more options for my 20Mb and 40Mb discs. > > The 9133V controller (I assume there's a 9134 version, if only becuase > you could trivially remoove the floppy drive and controller from a > 9133V) can be jumpered to work in 3 ways : > There is/was indeed a 9134V & XV. The other difference from the 9133 was that the front was "blank", as in no opening for the floppy. I may still have the HP catalogs with those, as well. -- jd "Calling J-Man Kink. Calling J-Man Kink. Hash missile sighted, target Los Angeles. Disregard personal feelings about city and intercept." From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 18 19:28:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:28:46 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation program available) In-Reply-To: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> References: , <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4B2BBBCE.3458.2089EBF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2009 at 6:34, jd wrote: > Perhaps the 8291 used less code on the microcontrollers? Or perhaps it > could do seomthing on it's own, unlike the 9914, such as assert NRDF > when it's databuffer was full? Come to think of it, wasn't the 8291 > almost "smart", like a hard coded microcontroller? The 8292 controller *was* an 8041 with Intel-defined firmware. The 8291 looks more like a state machine to me. --Chuck From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Dec 18 19:40:53 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:10:53 +1030 Subject: Dead Commodore 16 Message-ID: <200912191210.53419.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, I got myself a Commodore 16. It worked on Wednesday nicely, then I tried it again on Friday and it didn't work. It still gives out sync pulses and colour burst for the video, but there is only a black screen. Is this the normal fault for a failed TED? Or could it be that the CPU or one of the ROMs are dead. I'm asking so I don't waste time on something that can't be fixed (easily). Cheers, Alexis. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 19:47:58 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:47:58 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) References: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Or even a SATA, PATA, USB storage interface. Such a stand alone > emulator would be very useful. I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard in two or three years. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 18 20:01:42 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:01:42 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Been a long time since I've seen either in person :) at least it stimulated some conversation :) On 12/18/09 11:30 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory cells were > > No. The 4116 is a 16K+1 DRAM (so the half-good one is an 8K*1 DRAM) in a > 16 pin DIP. The 2114 is a 1K*4 SRAM in an 18 pin DIP. > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 18 21:01:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:01:56 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard > in two or three years. Hopefully longer than that. SD is really, really nice. And MUCH easier to interface than kludgy old IDE. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 18 21:10:30 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dead Commodore 16 In-Reply-To: <200912191210.53419.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> from Alexis at "Dec 19, 9 12:10:53 pm" Message-ID: <200912190310.nBJ3AUNX009630@floodgap.com> > I got myself a Commodore 16. It worked on Wednesday nicely, then I tried it > again on Friday and it didn't work. It still gives out sync pulses and colour > burst for the video, but there is only a black screen. > > Is this the normal fault for a failed TED? Dead TED. This is the most common failure on 264-series Commodores, and the most aggravating, since the only cure is snagging a TED from another working 16 or Plus/4. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- No Alchemy (unless it works) -- "Girl Genius" 2006-07-12 ------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 18 21:12:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:12:03 -0700 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B2C4483.8050606@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 18, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard in >> two or three years. > > Hopefully longer than that. SD is really, really nice. And MUCH easier > to interface than kludgy old IDE. But IDE you can interface to older 8 bit machines. As for classic computers - 12 & 16 bits I suspect that would be a easy hardware project. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 18 21:20:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:20:10 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2C4483.8050606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2C4483.8050606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Ben wrote: >>> I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard in >>> two or three years. >> >> Hopefully longer than that. SD is really, really nice. And MUCH >> easier >> to interface than kludgy old IDE. > > But IDE you can interface to older 8 bit machines. > As for classic computers - 12 & 16 bits I suspect that would be a > easy hardware project. Interfacing SD to small processors is trivial too! Remember, the "basic" mode (not the "high speed" mode) of accessing SD is SPI. It's even easy to bit-bang on pretty much any processor. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 18 21:20:34 2009 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:20:34 -0900 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0KUV001W6QM7FI00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 09:18 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: >There were a couple of programs around a few years ago, I'll dig >around on sourceforge, but they allowed you to take original PCB >films, scan them in and convert them into gerbers. I'd use a >commercial service, but I have so many films, that it will be too >cost prohibitive. ViewMate from Pentalogix will do it for $49. It is the best gerber editing program I have ever used. It will open a bitmap and generate a monster gerber file. You will have to manually add the holes. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 21:42:01 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:42:01 -0500 Subject: ISO: Manual or information on 3M DCD3-30 tape unit In-Reply-To: <4B2A4828.25444.12FC503@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B28DB59.10883.DBF2A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4B2A4828.25444.12FC503@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I recall that DTL (and early ECL) came in TO-100s. ?Somewhere, I've > still got a few Fairchild 8-bit addressable memories in TO-100. ? I > believe that the Motoroal HEP mWRTL kit came in TO-100 packages. RCS has a very interesting Fabritek scope - sort of a statistical analyzer - crammed with MECL I in cans. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 18 22:32:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:32:46 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B2BE6EE.8340.2B11584@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2009 at 23:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard > in two or three years. I'd really like to know that the things will be available in 10 years in capacities that will still work what's designed today. Can one, for example, still get 16MB CF cards? If all that the unit can handle is FAT32, what does one do when the only cards available use exFAT? --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Fri Dec 18 12:17:16 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:17:16 -0600 Subject: Multitech MPF1 Plus. Documentation. In-Reply-To: <05b801ca7fd6$71a02510$54e06f30$@com> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> <05b801ca7fd6$71a02510$54e06f30$@com> Message-ID: <20091218181716.GF18677@n0jcf.net> Just curious which MultiTech you wrote to... there is this MultiTech, http://www.multitech.com/en_US/ which is most definitely not the one that built the device that you have. There was another Asian company called Multitech, which later became Acer... and I believe they are the folks that built the device you have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprofessor_I Just wanted to make sure you were going down the right path... the two companies were very often confused (with each other). I used to work for the first MultiTech, here in MN, USA. Chris On Friday (12/18/2009 at 11:37AM -0000), Richard E.Malone wrote: > > Hello all, > I have been a member of this group for a long time and have great respect > for anyone trying to preserve early computers. > I have been very lucky to buy an original Multitech MicroProfessor Plus. It > came with I/O, Eprom and Printer Boards. > > The problem is "No Documentation". I have done all the usual places and > written a polite letter to Multitech, some weeks ago, but have not had a > reply. > Can anyone help please? > > Kind regards and season's greetings to all, > > Richard {UK} -- Chris Elmquist From ba600 at ncf.ca Fri Dec 18 15:24:19 2009 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:24:19 -0500 Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C In-Reply-To: <3d6d1f3d8ca5.3d8ca53d6d1f@ncf.ca> References: <3d6d1f3d8ca5.3d8ca53d6d1f@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <200912181624.20255.ba600@ncf.ca> On December 18, 2009, Normand Fisher wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I have an old 861C (and a 874A) which are very noisy and trigger off > after a short period under load. Would you, by chance, have a copy of > the schematics? > > Or matter of fact any knowledge as to the cause of noise(old capacitors? > ...). Your best bet wouls be to post to Classiccmp Classiccmp mailing list at cctalk at classiccmp.org. Most of my DEC manuals are in Storage tub in the garage. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Dec 18 23:17:17 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:17:17 -0600 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2C61DD.2090106@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive >>> For which you don't get service data, presumably. >> The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab >> another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;) > > You might, but you darn well know I don't. Heck, I repaired a > _transistor_ [1] the other day. And didn't we have athread on repairing > light bulbs the other week? > > [1] No, I don;'t mean a transistorised radio (which was called a > 'transistor' by some people over hear yeras ago). I mean a transsitor, a > single component. It was a 2SB705 (no, don't pretend you've heard of it), > the (PNP) pass transistor in the 24V suppy in am Epson printer. It's > bolted to a heatsing in said printer and connected to the logic board by > a 3-wire cable and cocket. Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine ;-(), all 3 > pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source of a > replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package to expose > the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly it worked. > > -tony > Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to carefully grind my way down to the metal. As I finished and handed the board back to the EE in our group to solder on a wire, he looked at it and rather quickly asked "Do you suppose we've voided the warranty on that chip?" ;) The EE kept it hanging on the wall in his office for quite a while. Later, Charlie C. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 04:03:07 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:03:07 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc driveemulation programavailable) References: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2C4483.8050606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <04a801ca8093$1e1d8780$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > But IDE you can interface to older 8 bit machines. And why SD you can't? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 04:03:53 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:03:53 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) References: , <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2BE6EE.8340.2B11584@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <04a901ca8093$20c527e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > If all that the unit can handle is FAT32, what does one do when the > only cards available use exFAT? It will work in a reduced capacity :o) From mardy at voysys.com Sat Dec 19 06:39:58 2009 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 07:39:58 -0500 Subject: Scanning PCB films In-Reply-To: <0KUV001W6QM7FI00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B152D39.4070405@atarimuseum.com> <4B5DD7AD-662A-4662-93DE-12179D351493@neurotica.com> <4B155DE3.3090605@atarimuseum.com> <0KUV001W6QM7FI00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: > At 09:18 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: >> There were a couple of programs around a few years ago, I'll dig around on sourceforge, but they allowed you to take original PCB films, scan them in and convert them into gerbers. I'd use a commercial service, but I have so many films, that it will be too cost prohibitive. > > ViewMate from Pentalogix will do it for $49. It is the best gerber editing program I have ever used. > > It will open a bitmap and generate a monster gerber file. You will have to manually add the holes. Hi Grant, glad to see you back! From looking at the Pentalogix web site, it looks like the application is now called ViewMasterEZ (http://www.pentalogix.com/Products/ViewMasterEZ/). They still have a ViewMate app, but it is demo-ware that can't save any work. -Mardy From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Dec 19 07:16:35 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:16:35 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? Message-ID: <4B2CD233.6090101@bluewin.ch> First the TU56 broke, then the Lilith disks goes, and now it is the HP Integral's turn . The Integral, stored a year ago in working condition, has a display problem. After switching on the Integral makes all the right noises, but the display remains off. Anyone has a pinout, or schematic , of the Sharp LJ512U03 EL-display as used in the Integral ? ( there is something, but not much, in the 1985 HP Journal ) a replacement will be hard to find, and far too expensive of course. I do wonder how those with 100+ computers keep them all runnning, I have maybe 25 classics and find it hard to keep them alive. Jos Dreesen From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 19 08:10:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:10:54 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2BE6EE.8340.2B11584@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <035b01ca804d$79c06710$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2BE6EE.8340.2B11584@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard >> in two or three years. > > I'd really like to know that the things will be available in 10 years > in capacities that will still work what's designed today. Can one, > for example, still get 16MB CF cards? [sorry for jumping in] There were SO many of these made, does it really matter? I have a drawer full of them for exactly this purpose. > If all that the unit can handle is FAT32, what does one do when the > only cards available use exFAT? I've not looked at (or designed with) the newer cards very closely; can these not simply be reformatted? Since when does the "disk drive" (flash card in this case) define the high-level filesystem layout? What's the story here? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 19 08:53:38 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:53:38 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <4B2CD233.6090101@bluewin.ch> References: <4B2CD233.6090101@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <6444E7DC19874A3BAD3922A94A4233AF@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jos Dreesen > Verzonden: zaterdag 19 december 2009 14:17 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: HP Integral / display schematic ? > > First the TU56 broke, then the Lilith disks goes, and now it > is the HP Integral's turn . > > The Integral, stored a year ago in working condition, has a > display problem. > After switching on the Integral makes all the right noises, > but the display remains off. > > Anyone has a pinout, or schematic , of the Sharp LJ512U03 > EL-display as used in the Integral ? > ( there is something, but not much, in the 1985 HP Journal ) > > a replacement will be hard to find, and far too expensive of course. > > > I do wonder how those with 100+ computers keep them all > runnning, I have maybe 25 classics and find it hard to keep > them alive. > > > Jos Dreesen Jos, Let it on for a while, I had the same problem. After letting it on for a few hours, the display came back online. I think it had to do some regeneration of it's caps... After that it runs fine, I power it up every few month's -Rik From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 19 09:48:08 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:48:08 -0700 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: <4B2C61DD.2090106@tx.rr.com> References: <4B2C61DD.2090106@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B2CF5B8.5050501@jetnet.ab.ca> CSquared wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> On Tuesday 15 December 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> It also has a bog-standard IDE DVD transport, unlike less expensive >>>> For which you don't get service data, presumably. >>> The point is that you don't need to, you can just pitch it and grab >>> another from a discarded PC in a local bin. ;) >> >> You might, but you darn well know I don't. Heck, I repaired a >> _transistor_ [1] the other day. And didn't we have athread on >> repairing light bulbs the other week? >> >> [1] No, I don;'t mean a transistorised radio (which was called a >> 'transistor' by some people over hear yeras ago). I mean a transsitor, >> a single component. It was a 2SB705 (no, don't pretend you've heard of >> it), the (PNP) pass transistor in the 24V suppy in am Epson printer. >> It's bolted to a heatsing in said printer and connected to the logic >> board by a 3-wire cable and cocket. Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine >> ;-(), all 3 pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source >> of a replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package >> to expose the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly >> it worked. >> >> -tony >> > Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work > situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to > carefully grind my way down to the metal. As I finished and handed the > board back to the EE in our group to solder on a wire, he looked at it > and rather quickly asked "Do you suppose we've voided the warranty on > that chip?" ;) The EE kept it hanging on the wall in his office for > quite a while. > Later, > Charlie C. > I got a DEAD tube here . Just connect the two filament peaces together. The trickey part ... it is still in the tube. Anyone care to try. :) Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 11:17:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:17:34 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: , <4B2BE6EE.8340.2B11584@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B2C9A2E.22953.1564CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 9:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > There were SO many of these made, does it really matter? I have a > drawer full of them for exactly this purpose. Ten years ago, the same could be said for 8" floppies. Yes, there are private caches of them in existence (I have one) but they're not easy to find by any means. How's your cache of SmartMedia cards doing? Do you expect to see Sony memory sticks being sold 10 years on? > I've not looked at (or designed with) the newer cards very > closely; can these not simply be reformatted? Since when does the > "disk drive" (flash card in this case) define the high-level > filesystem layout? What's the story here? It matters if you want to hew to the standards. I've got a camera here that's a lot less than 10 years old that can't format a 4GB CF card (I did manage to format it with Windows XP so the camera could use it, but the camera understands FAT16 and so that's the end of the road--most devices don't have the capability of using only part of a memory card). I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I've got a real problem to address for long-term data storage that will also see very rough (think machine shop) conditions. Do we expect to see SD media out- populate USB flash drives? When do we expect to see SD become cheaper than any other medium? In a comparatively short time, we've gone from PCs having a mandatory floppy drive to having none. You could find blank floppies being sold everywhere; now the local computer recycle/reuse store won't accept donations of new, unopened stock. Compared to floppies, the speed of technological advances in flash media has been nothing short of breathtaking. While this is good for technology overall, it presents problems for planning. Personally, I'd love to use SD media in designs, but I need to have some sort of confidence that SD isn't going to become the next SmartMedia or xD. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 11:39:13 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:39:13 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) References: , <4B2BE6EE.8340.2B11584@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B2C9A2E.22953.1564CE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> There were SO many of these made, does it really matter? I have a >> drawer full of them for exactly this purpose. > Ten years ago, the same could be said for 8" floppies. Yes, there > are private caches of them in existence (I have one) but they're not > easy to find by any means. Does 8" floppies fit in a pocket? Are they durable Have you seen clean 8" disks around (of course outside our "collection world")? > How's your cache of SmartMedia cards doing? Smartmedia was a born dead standard :P > Do you expect to see Sony memory sticks being sold 10 years on? From sony? Of course, you can still find Beta tapes and MiniDisks! :oD > populate USB flash drives? When do we expect to see SD become > cheaper than any other medium? It is!? :oO > Personally, I'd love to use SD media in designs, but I need to have > some sort of confidence that SD isn't going to become the next > SmartMedia or xD. Think something smarter than SD. Small size, serial protocol, easy to use, sold as gigabilions. Can you put smartmedia on the same phrase? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 12:02:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:02:51 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 15:39, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Can you put smartmedia on the same phrase? 10 years ago, maybe one could. SmarMedia is small. In fact, it's difficult to understand why it sunsetted so quickly. But then the same might also be said of MMC. I'm just trying to figure out where to place my bet. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 12:12:52 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:12:52 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc driveemulationprogramavailable) References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <06c201ca80d7$8abce680$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Can you put smartmedia on the same phrase? > 10 years ago, maybe one could. SmarMedia is small. In fact, it's > difficult to understand why it sunsetted so quickly. But then the > same might also be said of MMC. No, you couldn't Smartmedia had a basic problem - tens of contacts, all exposed. That is a nightmare of bad contacts on media continuosely manipulated. Usually you have a media that is inserted in a device and left there until it breaks. Most of digital cameras work this way, if you could sell a camera with a 2G card soldered on the board, 80% of the market would see no difference. But in applications where you need constant card change, smartmedia is a pain in the connector. Bet on SD and USB media, you'll win From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 19 13:12:55 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:12:55 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) Message-ID: <20091219191255.B4A35BA5441@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > On 18 Dec 2009 at 23:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I still think that nothing beats SD. It **will** be the standard >> in two or three years. >I'd really like to know that the things will be available in 10 years >in capacities that will still work what's designed today. Can one, >for example, still get 16MB CF cards? >If all that the unit can handle is FAT32, what does one do when the >only cards available use exFAT? Rather than try to decide on the "one right way" to do things going into the future, don't all of us in fact end up diversifying into what's available now and then shifting up to new interfaces over time as they become proven? I mean, ten years ago I was enamored of MO disks as the "one right way" of storage. It's not that the conclusion was really wrong, but that's not the way the majority of the market moved. (I note that medical imaging still is a big user of MO disks.) Twenty five years ago I might've decided that DEC RC25 carts were the way to go. Hah! How wrong would that decision would've proved to be! What's most astonishing: what used to fit on 10,000 9-track tapes, literally filling an entire moving truck, now comfortably fits on a 1 terabyte portable hard drive that is just a little bigger than pocket sized. That's mind-blowing. Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Dec 19 13:17:02 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:17:02 -0600 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091219191255.B4A35BA5441@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20091219191255.B4A35BA5441@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200912191917.nBJJHWD4040788@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:12 PM 12/19/2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: >What's most astonishing: what used to fit on 10,000 9-track tapes, >literally filling an entire moving truck, now comfortably fits on a >1 terabyte portable hard drive that is just a little bigger than >pocket sized. That's mind-blowing. No, what's really mind-blowing is that they are well below $100. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 19 13:09:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:09:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation program In-Reply-To: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> from "jd" at Dec 18, 9 06:34:41 am Message-ID: > Perhaps the 8291 used less code on the microcontrollers? Or perhaps it > could do seomthing on it's own, unlike the 9914, such as assert NRDF > when it's databuffer was full? Come to think of it, wasn't the 8291 > almost "smart", like a hard coded microcontroller? I think you're thinking of the 8292, which was an add-on chip to the 8291 to give contrtoller functionality (the 8291 on its own could talk and listen, but couldn't act as a controller). That chip was clearly a programmed 8041 or 8042. > > > I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a=20 > > HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB=20 > > buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF=20 > > card. Make it 'open' and I'll build several... > > > Or even a SATA, PATA, USB storage interface. Such a stand alone > emulator would be very useful. If the design is 'open', then presumaly you could mofify it for whatever storage device you want. And surely it would be better to have a working desing for _any_ modern-ish storage device rather than debate about which device to use. > There's a fair description of the Amigo protocol floating around as > well as the CS80 spec as a PDF on Bitsavers. Since all the HP drive The amigo protocol is in some of the HP drive service manuals. > controllers are built around Intel microcontrollers, shouldn't be too Are they? While I'll believe (if shown) that such a device exists, every HP drive I've been inside [1] uses a Motorola processor. An 6802 in the 82901, 68B09s in most others and a 68000(!) in the 9145 tape drive. [1] OK, the 9885 doesn't. It uses the HP custom 'nonocontooller'. But that's not an HPIB device. > the moment. I have several different ROMs for them. It took some > experimentation to get them working right without docs or any clues > from anyone. I also have one 9133XV with a bad floppy controller. If this is a 9133XV with the HP controllers (6809 + 9114, etc), then I have unofficial scheamtics. The floppy controller is actually quite simple -- most of the logic is on the top board, the lower board contains the master clock and disk data separator. Apart from the EPROM (which is the sama as in a 9121 IIRC), there's nothing remotely custom in there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 19 13:12:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:12:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C In-Reply-To: <200912181624.20255.ba600@ncf.ca> from "Mike" at Dec 18, 9 04:24:19 pm Message-ID: > > On December 18, 2009, Normand Fisher wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > > > I have an old 861C (and a 874A) which are very noisy and trigger off > > after a short period under load. Would you, by chance, have a copy of > > the schematics? > > > > Or matter of fact any knowledge as to the cause of noise(old capacitors? > > ...). > > Your best bet wouls be to post to Classiccmp Classiccmp mailing list at > cctalk at classiccmp.org. The DEC power cotnrollers are _very_ simple inside, and you don't really need tjhe printsets to repair them. I am not sure I understand the fault description. In particular, what sort of noise (hum, chattering relay?). And what do you mean by 'trigger off'. Do you mean the contactor drops out, or the breaker trips, or what? Let me know exactly what happens and I might be able to help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 19 13:18:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:18:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Dec 18, 9 06:01:42 pm Message-ID: > > Been a long time since I've seen either in person :) at least it stimulated > some conversation :) This is classiccmp. I would bet about half of classic computers use one or the other. -tony > > > On 12/18/09 11:30 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > >> > >> Was the 2114 the chips that were 4116's that only half the memory cells were > > > > No. The 4116 is a 16K+1 DRAM (so the half-good one is an 8K*1 DRAM) in a > > 16 pin DIP. The 2114 is a 1K*4 SRAM in an 18 pin DIP. > > > > -tony > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 19 13:26:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:26:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: <4B2C61DD.2090106@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Dec 18, 9 11:17:17 pm Message-ID: [Repairing a transistor] > Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work > situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to I've done that sort of thing to PROMs and PAls that have lost the odd pin. I normally use a hand file (as I did on the transistor in the Epson printer), it seems more controllable to me. To be honest I'd rather have replaced the transistor, but I can't find a sensible source of 2SB705s. I think I found one dubious-looking website (who might well provide me witha fake, and I'd rather not have a dodgy component in a PSU ...) and somebody else who would provide an 'equivalent' for quite a high price. According to Towers [1] there's not must speical about the original transistor other than the package (which is so odd that they don't give the pinout...) I am pretty sure I could find soemthing that would work for a lot less than the 'equivalent' I was offered. [1] Tower's International Transistor Selector. I don't know if this book is known outside the UK, but it basically gives 1 line of specs on just about every transistor ever made. There's a similar one for FETs (JFETs and MOSFETs( and one for Op-amps/Comaparators. And some others that are less useful IMHO. But those 3 (and in particular the bipolar transsitor one) ave very useful for anyone fixing old stuff. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 19 13:46:46 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <4B2CD233.6090101@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 19, 9 02:16:35 pm Message-ID: > > First the TU56 broke, then the Lilith disks goes, and now it is the HP > Integral's turn . > > The Integral, stored a year ago in working condition, has a display problem. > After switching on the Integral makes all the right noises, but the > display remains off. > > Anyone has a pinout, or schematic , of the Sharp LJ512U03 EL-display > as used in the Integral ? Here's the pinout : Gnd --o o-- Gnd +18V --o o-- +18V +5V --o o-- Gnd Gnd --o o-- Gnd Rst --o o-- Gnd VSync --o o-- Gnd HSync --o o-- Gnd DotCLk --o o-- Gnd DotsA --o o-- Gnd DotsB --o o-- Gnd Ths display is controled by the (custom) 1LL3-0005 chip on the Logic B PCB. There's 16K 16 bit words of DRAM (4 off 4416s), a couple of dot shift registers and some glue logic. You can get my unoffical Integral scheamtics from the Australian Museum site. It's an old version, I know there are errors (but AFAIK none in the display controller circuit). I have produced an updated version, but for some reason it's never got to the site. And I didn't try to draw out the display module itself. It seemed to be all custom stuff. There is what appears to be an HV PSU on the display module PCB that it probably repairable -- I can try to figure it out if you think that's the problem. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 14:48:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:48:00 -0800 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: <4B2C61DD.2090106@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Dec 18, 9 11:17:17 pm, Message-ID: <4B2CCB80.20718.D60E57@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 19:26, Tony Duell wrote: > To be honest I'd rather have replaced the transistor, but I can't find > a sensible source of 2SB705s. I think I found one dubious-looking > website (who might well provide me witha fake, and I'd rather not have > a dodgy component in a PSU ...) and somebody else who would provide an > 'equivalent' for quite a high price. Well, there's the NTE92: http://www.nteinc.com/specs/10to99/pdf/nte92.pdf I usually end up going to the NTE cross-reference for discrete semiconductors. Sometimes they actually offer something. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 19 14:59:31 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:59:31 -0800 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/19/09 11:18 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> Been a long time since I've seen either in person :) at least it stimulated >> some conversation :) > > This is classiccmp. I would bet about half of classic computers use one > or the other. > > -tony True, but most of my classic systems were in a storage unit that got emptied :( From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 15:00:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:00:26 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091219191255.B4A35BA5441@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20091219191255.B4A35BA5441@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4B2CCE6A.134.E17076@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 14:12, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Rather than try to decide on the "one right way" to do things > going into the future, don't all of us in fact end up diversifying > into what's available now and then shifting up to new interfaces over > time as they become proven? That's nice in theory. But what about as an upgrade to a 30-year old piece of industrial gear that expects to see at least another 20 years of useful life? Will your upgrade use a medium that will be available for the next 20 years, when even USB will only be a memory to hard-core collectors? > What's most astonishing: what used to fit on 10,000 9-track tapes, > literally filling an entire moving truck, now comfortably fits on a 1 > terabyte portable hard drive that is just a little bigger than pocket > sized. That's mind-blowing Yes, and the newest SD cards have a maximum capacity of 2TB--and I have no doubt that even that will be extended in the future. What we no longer have is convenient inexpensive storage for modest amounts of information, say a megabyte or two? Ideally, such a medium would be read-mostly or write-once and a handful of them would buy a cup of coffee at your local watering hole. If I want to write a quick note, I don't need a printer's bale or even a quire. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 19 18:59:01 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:59:01 -0800 Subject: pdp 8a prom images ??? where ??? In-Reply-To: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <4B2D76D5.7010307@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/09 9:33 PM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I just did a search for pdp 8A prom images and could not find > any. I'm sure I just looked in all of the wrong places > > Any help, Looking for 158a2 and 159a2 > I should be able to find them. Their contents are documented in the PDP8A users manual starting at 6-58 The three variants that I see are 87A2, 88A2 PTP,RK8E,TC08,RF08,TA8E 138A2, 159A2 PTP,RK8E,RX8E,RF08,TA8E and 465A2, 469A2 TA8E replaced by RL8A documented in the RL8A manual, but bootstrap not listed From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 19 20:08:13 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:08:13 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) Message-ID: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > What we no longer have is convenient inexpensive storage for modest > amounts of information, say a megabyte or two? Ideally, such a > medium would be read-mostly or write-once and a handful of them would > buy a cup of coffee at your local watering hole. When I got started in computing, a RK05 pack was circa $200 and a 8" floppy was circa $5. A researcher or student might have had a personal RK05 or two and a box of floppies. Today for the non-inflation-amount of money I get a couple of Terabyte portable drives for $200 and a cheapie USB keychain for $5. And they're used for similar purposes (despite a factor of 5 or more orders of magnuted in byte capacity) as the 30-year old equivalents. I see things really staying the same in price and in usage more than changing. What's really cool, is both the USB keychain and the terabyte portable drive use the same cheap and ubiquitous low-end interface. That is an improvement over 30 years ago (don't take that as a slam against the Unibus, if I wanted to insult the Unibus I would call it "cheap and ubiquitous" 30 years ago!) Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 19 20:21:53 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20091219181542.E59797@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Tim Shoppa wrote: > When I got started in computing, a RK05 pack was circa $200 and > a 8" floppy was circa $5. A researcher or student might have > had a personal RK05 or two and a box of floppies. > > Today for the non-inflation-amount of money > I get a couple of Terabyte portable drives for $200 and a cheapie > USB keychain for $5. And they're used for similar purposes (despite > a factor of 5 or more orders of magnuted in byte capacity) as the 30-year > old equivalents. I see things really staying the same in price > and in usage more than changing. While there is a factor of 5 or more orders of magnitude in byte capacity, the capacity of what they will hold is unchanged. A non-trivial MS WEIRD file will no longer fit on a floppy. An OS will not only no longer fit on a floppy, some won't fit on a CD-ROM! Data will always expand to fill the available capacity - Boyle's law MICROS~1 has certainly done their part to keep Moore's law and the software variant of Boyle's law on track. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 21:05:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:05:05 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 21:08, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What's really cool, is both the USB keychain and the terabyte > portable drive use the same cheap and ubiquitous low-end interface. > That is an improvement over 30 years ago (don't take that as a slam > against the Unibus, if I wanted to insult the Unibus I would call it > "cheap and ubiquitous" 30 years ago!) You miss the point. Suppose I have a small amount of data--consider, for example, the electronic equivalent of a memo, or a business card, a musical score, a simple diagram that I've jotted down. I'm not going to hand out a 4GB USB keychain fob for that. I don't want to email the thing--it'd be like using the domestic post to hand you my business card. Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as read-lots is supported. What fills that role today? --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Dec 19 21:43:07 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:43:07 -0800 Subject: Electronic Business Cards In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52f28ba5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit > card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in > quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable > on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as > read-lots is supported. > > What fills that role today? > > --Chuck I've seen some guys hand out calling cards that are tiny CD rom's-- that's about as close to what you've described that I've seen. Of course, it has some limitations-- it's subject to scratching, and as far as I know there's no 'mobile device' with a cd-rom reader! You know, a smartcard (such as used for phone cards in europe and elsewhere) would be perfect for this application; problem is, smartcards aren't used for things that would require you to plug them into your computer or phone (no, GSM SIM cards *DONT* count!). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 21:56:44 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:56:44 -0500 Subject: Electronic Business Cards In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52f28ba5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I've seen some guys hand out calling cards that are tiny CD rom's-- > that's about as close to what you've described that I've seen. Electronic Business Cards these days are called "LinkedIn" and "Facebook". -- Will, with no facebook page! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 22:02:37 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:02:37 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > You miss the point. ?Suppose I have a small amount of data--consider, > for example, the electronic equivalent of a memo, or a business card, > a musical score, a simple diagram that I've jotted down. > > I'm not going to hand out a 4GB USB keychain fob for that. ?I don't > want to email the thing--it'd be like using the domestic post to hand > you my business card. These days, in less time than it takes to reach out and grab your business cards, most Blackberry carrying business people have keyed in everything with their thumbs. You might as well just email it. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 22:03:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:03:35 -0500 Subject: trs-80 model II trouble--problem solved..and follow-up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > True, but most of my classic systems were in a storage unit that got emptied > :( Ex or bank? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 22:16:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:16:19 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B2D3493.15763.270812B@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 23:02, William Donzelli wrote: > These days, in less time than it takes to reach out and grab your > business cards, most Blackberry carrying business people have keyed in > everything with their thumbs. You might as well just email it. Sigh. What if I wanted to staple or clip it to a Christmas card or gift (e.g. flowers, a bottle of brandy, etc.)? I know--we don't send cards anymore. We email them. We'll probably do that with gifts as well and get rid of the irksome tradition of real trees--we'll all gather 'round the big-screen OLED and sing "O Tannenbaum". --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Dec 19 23:19:13 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:19:13 -0800 Subject: Electronic Business Cards In-Reply-To: References: <4b2d23e1.16784.22f4789@cclist.sydex.com> <20091220020813.52f28ba5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > Sent: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:56:44 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Electronic Business Cards > >> I've seen some guys hand out calling cards that are tiny CD rom's-- >> that's about as close to what you've described that I've seen. > > Electronic Business Cards these days are called "LinkedIn" and > "Facebook". > > -- > Will, with no facebook page! And, apparently, no Electronic Business Cards! :^) ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE 5GB EMAIL - Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Dec 19 23:29:46 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:29:46 -0600 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:05 PM 12/19/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit >card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in >quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable >on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as >read-lots is supported. What fills that role today? Email. :-) But I sympathize. For many years, I thought there should be a keyfob device that could send and receive similar biz-card quantities of personal info, but transfer via audio over the phone or in-person. How many man-days have you spent writing or saying addresses? These days, how hard would be it be to modem-tone a URL at the end of a radio advert or a TV advert? Why aren't street billboards emitting useful data via Bluetooth and WiFi? Why am I looking at an ad and then still typing the URL on my Internet-connected phone? - John From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Dec 19 23:38:38 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:38:38 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D3493.15763.270812B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4b2d23e1.16784.22f4789@cclist.sydex.com> <20091220020813.52f28ba5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cclist at sydex.com > Sent: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:16:19 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation > programavailable) > > On 19 Dec 2009 at 23:02, William Donzelli wrote: > >> These days, in less time than it takes to reach out and grab your >> business cards, most Blackberry carrying business people have keyed in >> everything with their thumbs. You might as well just email it. > > Sigh. What if I wanted to staple or clip it to a Christmas card or > gift (e.g. flowers, a bottle of brandy, etc.)? I know--we don't send > cards anymore. We email them. We'll probably do that with gifts > as well and get rid of the irksome tradition of real trees--we'll all > gather 'round the big-screen OLED and sing "O Tannenbaum". > > --Chuck I feel your pain, Chuck. I sincerely feel that to be truly successful in human interactions, you cannot delete the human element: The sound of your voice when you call (vs. e-mail); the appearance (physically) of your Business Card when you meet; the handwritten Thank-You note when you're granted a favor. It's the 'personal touch' that will separate individuals (and companies) of quality from the rest. -- Jeff From g-wright at att.net Sat Dec 19 23:50:06 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:50:06 +0000 Subject: pdp 8a prom images ??? where ??? Thanks AL In-Reply-To: <4B2D76D5.7010307@bitsavers.org> References: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <4B2D76D5.7010307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <122020090550.4075.4B2DBB0D00075E9700000FEB22230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Al Kossow : -------------- > On 12/17/09 9:33 PM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > > I just did a search for pdp 8A prom images and could not find > > any. I'm sure I just looked in all of the wrong places > > > > Any help, Looking for 158a2 and 159a2 > > > > I should be able to find them. Their contents are documented in the PDP8A > users manual starting at 6-58 > > The three variants that I see are > > 87A2, 88A2 PTP,RK8E,TC08,RF08,TA8E > 138A2, 159A2 PTP,RK8E,RX8E,RF08,TA8E > and > 465A2, 469A2 TA8E replaced by RL8A > > documented in the RL8A manual, but bootstrap > not listed > Thanks Al, This does help a lot. I did find the 465A2 and 469A2 But did not know what they where all about. Of coarse I would not have looked in the RL8-A manual in a million years. - Jerry From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 20 00:18:48 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:18:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2C9A2E.22953.1564CE@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Dec 19, 9 09:17:34 am" Message-ID: <200912200618.nBK6ImvA012824@floodgap.com> > How's your cache of SmartMedia cards doing? Dunno, they're in a box with the Olympus camera that used them and that I no longer use. I wonder if they will reproduce. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group ------------ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 20 00:30:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:30:03 -0700 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D3493.15763.270812B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B2D3493.15763.270812B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B2DC46B.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sigh. What if I wanted to staple or clip it to a Christmas card or > gift (e.g. flowers, a bottle of brandy, etc.)? I know--we don't send > cards anymore. We email them. We'll probably do that with gifts > as well and get rid of the irksome tradition of real trees--we'll all > gather 'round the big-screen OLED and sing "O Tannenbaum". Why bother ... I suspect you can get a XMASS card nowdays to do the singing for you. > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 00:31:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:31:22 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <200912200618.nBK6ImvA012824@floodgap.com> References: <4B2C9A2E.22953.1564CE@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Dec 19, 9 09:17:34 am", <200912200618.nBK6ImvA012824@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B2D543A.9179.2EC23FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2009 at 22:18, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Dunno, they're in a box with the Olympus camera that used them and > that I no longer use. I wonder if they will reproduce. Trade you a Fuji SM camera for that Olympus. A whopping 1.5 Mpixel. Nope, that's strictly the domain of wire coat hangers and safety pins. :) --Chuck From thypope at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 00:32:17 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:32:17 +0200 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Sorry to barge in when the party's over, but can you please tell me how computers in general cope with cold temperatures depending on their generation ? Like, from 286 to P4 or vice-versa. I would also be interested to know about the Motorola 68k architecture or Zilog Z80 (as far as I know these are still made and used in various things, named eZ80). And hey, it depends on the P4. Socket 478 or LGA775? Yes, the LGA775 have killer operating temps. As someone once said, "free space heater." Thanks From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 20 00:42:47 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:42:47 -0700 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B2DC767.8010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Sorry to barge in when the party's over, but can you please tell me how > computers in general cope with cold temperatures depending on their > generation ? Like, from 286 to P4 or vice-versa. I would also be interested > to know about the Motorola 68k architecture or Zilog Z80 (as far as I know > these are still made and used in various things, named eZ80). > > And hey, it depends on the P4. Socket 478 or LGA775? Yes, the LGA775 have > killer operating temps. As someone once said, "free space heater." > > Thanks > So what ever happened with hi-temp super conducting computers. I suspect a Military/Space version of said CPU's may be available. It would be the frost, not the cold that would kill the CPU then. From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Dec 20 02:06:37 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:06:37 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! Message-ID: Long live the system that is a major improvement on its successors! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 20 03:13:56 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:13:56 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation program available) In-Reply-To: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> References: <4B2B9301.6030503@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4B2DEAD4.502@brouhaha.com> jd wrote: > Perhaps the 8291 used less code on the microcontrollers? Or perhaps it > could do seomthing on it's own, unlike the 9914, such as assert NRDF > when it's databuffer was full? Come to think of it, wasn't the 8291 > almost "smart", like a hard coded microcontroller? > The 8291 appears to have been hardwired logic; the microcontrollers of the time would not have been able to transfer data at anywhere near the speed of the 8291. The 8292, which was used to implement bus controller functionality, appears to have been an 8041 "UPI". That's a mask-programed 8048 derivative which has a slave interface to a processor bus, to act as a smart peripheral. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 20 03:21:26 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:21:26 -0800 Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2DEC96.6030204@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The DEC power cotnrollers are _very_ simple inside, and you don't really > need tjhe printsets to repair them. > You need the print set of a DEC power control if you're trying to figure out why the power control in a Type 30 point-plot display attached to a PDP-1 keeps tripping its circuit breaker as soon as mains voltage is applied to its input. Once you have the print set, it becomes apparent that someone seriously miswired the innards of the power control, possibly in a previous misguided repair attempt. Upon rewiring it to factory spec, and replacing a switch on the front of the power control that turned into a dead short when it was miswired, it will then work properly. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 20 03:25:06 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:25:06 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4B2DED72.3020007@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > When I got started in computing, a RK05 pack was circa $200 and > a 8" floppy was circa $5. A researcher or student might have > had a personal RK05 or two and a box of floppies. > A wealthy student, maybe. $200 back then is equivalent to around $1000 in today's dollars. Not many students I knew back then would have been able to afford that. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 20 07:19:46 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:19:46 +0000 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4B2E2472.4010607@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/12/2009 05:29, John Foust wrote: > At 09:05 PM 12/19/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit >> card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in >> quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable >> on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as >> read-lots is supported. What fills that role today? > Email. :-) And vCards, by whatever transmission media. OK, not megabytes, but enough for a collection of personal information. > These days, how hard would be it be to modem-tone a URL at the > end of a radio advert or a TV advert? And what would listen to anything as ancient as modem tones? > Why aren't street billboards > emitting useful data via Bluetooth and WiFi? Why am I looking at an ad > and then still typing the URL on my Internet-connected phone? WiFi is a bit of a non-starter for that. Firstly, you'd have to associate with the access point. Then there's no concept of a broadcast message in the way you'd want. You'd need something else further up the protocol stack to carry an ad, and then people would only see it if they did something like open a particular website, or were running some client to accept the messages. OTOH, there is a provision to do these things with Bluetooth, because the mechanisms -- like the broadcast message concept -- are built into the protocol stack by design (the OPP profile for example). And there's plenty of software out there to use it. Look up "placecasting" and "bluetooth broadcast". You can also do things like that with SMS Cell Broadcast, but it's generally reserved for emergencies, rather than advertising. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 20 09:05:06 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:05:06 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Can you put smartmedia on the same phrase? > > 10 years ago, maybe one could. SmarMedia is small. In fact, it's > difficult to understand why it sunsetted so quickly. It never did make it into very widespread use. Lately I've not seen a consumer digital camera that doesn't use SD. One could never say that about SmartMedia. > But then the same might also be said of MMC. MMC is just a subset of SD. Even the physical specs are compatible. > I'm just trying to figure out where to place my bet. SD looks pretty safe so far, at least to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 20 09:09:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:09:54 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What's really cool, is both the USB keychain and the terabyte >> portable drive use the same cheap and ubiquitous low-end interface. >> That is an improvement over 30 years ago (don't take that as a slam >> against the Unibus, if I wanted to insult the Unibus I would call it >> "cheap and ubiquitous" 30 years ago!) > > You miss the point. Suppose I have a small amount of data--consider, > for example, the electronic equivalent of a memo, or a business card, > a musical score, a simple diagram that I've jotted down. > > I'm not going to hand out a 4GB USB keychain fob for that. I don't > want to email the thing--it'd be like using the domestic post to hand > you my business card. > > Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit > card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in > quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable > on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as > read-lots is supported. > > What fills that role today? iButtons? Much smaller than a meg or two, but might be useful for some of the things you're talking about. And they're absolutely indestructible. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Dec 20 09:10:41 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:10:41 -0600 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2E2472.4010607@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4B2E2472.4010607@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200912201511.nBKFBGO6091477@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:19 AM 12/20/2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>These days, how hard would be it be to modem-tone a URL at the >>end of a radio advert or a TV advert? > >And what would listen to anything as ancient as modem tones? The key-fob, of course. Or for that matter, why couldn't the average contemporary cell phone handle that sort of aural barcode? No more bytes than a twitter or a txt. I think I was sensitized to the issue of constantly spelling over the phone because I once made the mistake of picking an unusual company name for myself. I'm sure anyone with an unusual last name suffers the same way. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 20 09:52:41 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:52:41 -0700 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2E4849.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > Long live the system that is a major improvement on its successors! And had it dropped in price and size like PC's, we all could get a card with a free puter inside? In hindsight, could the DEC-20 or RISC version of it had marketing and other bad luck changed ,and today replaced the PC in many applications? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 20 10:08:08 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:08:08 +0000 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <200912201511.nBKFBGO6091477@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4B2E2472.4010607@dunnington.plus.com> <200912201511.nBKFBGO6091477@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4B2E4BE8.1040907@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/12/2009 15:10, John Foust wrote: > At 07:19 AM 12/20/2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> These days, how hard would be it be to modem-tone a URL at the >>> end of a radio advert or a TV advert? >> And what would listen to anything as ancient as modem tones? > > The key-fob, of course. Or for that matter, why couldn't the > average contemporary cell phone handle that sort of aural barcode? > No more bytes than a twitter or a txt. True, it's not technically difficult. My point was just that nothing does that, now. There's no incentive for companies like Sony Ericcson, Motorola or Nokia to build that in. OTOH there are reasons for them to build in Bluetooth capability and provide the profiles necessary to handle vCard broadcasts (which is how placecasting works) and to provide Near-Field Communications technology (using RFID, for bus tickets and "smart posters" etc). Both placecasting and smart posters *have* been tried. Look them up :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 10:56:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:56:32 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: <4B2E4849.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B2E4849.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > In hindsight, could the DEC-20 or RISC version of it > had marketing and other bad luck changed ,and > today replaced the PC in many applications? Six bit based architectures all died with the rise of the IBM S/360 family. DEC, CDC, Univac. It also did not help that many of these old line mainframe architectures were getting hard to extend. For the DEC 36 bitters - what does one do after the 18 bit address pointer, with two neatly stuffed into a 36 bit word? A kludge. What does one do after the 36 bit address pointer? A worse kludge. -- Will From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Dec 20 11:13:08 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:13:08 +0100 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091220171308.GA24044@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 07:05:05PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Dec 2009 at 21:08, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > What's really cool, is both the USB keychain and the terabyte > > portable drive use the same cheap and ubiquitous low-end interface. > > That is an improvement over 30 years ago (don't take that as a slam > > against the Unibus, if I wanted to insult the Unibus I would call it > > "cheap and ubiquitous" 30 years ago!) > > You miss the point. Suppose I have a small amount of data--consider, > for example, the electronic equivalent of a memo, or a business card, > a musical score, a simple diagram that I've jotted down. > > I'm not going to hand out a 4GB USB keychain fob for that. I don't > want to email the thing--it'd be like using the domestic post to hand > you my business card. > > Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit > card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in > quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable > on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as > read-lots is supported. > > What fills that role today? Hmm, the cheapest memory card available at the local hardware dealer is a Kingston 2 GB MicroSD card with SD adapter for around USD 16[0]. Has the advantage of fitting both into MicroSD (think mobile phones) and SD (cameras, computers) slots. That is probably your best bet at this point in time since: - mobile phones are increasingly able to use SD cards, usually in the MicroSD form factor - USB adapters that read SD cards can be had for dirt cheap - quite a few mobile computers (laptops, netbooks) and even some desktops come equipped with SD card readers - the cards are not damaged by scratches (as the business card sized CD(-R)s are) - they are quite small while the SD (not Micro) formfactor is large enough not to get lost too easily in your wallet or pocket Regards, Alex. [0] Newegg sells a 2 GB Transced MicroSD with SD adapter for around USD 7, as usual, Switzerland is not known for low prices ;-) -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From icipasla at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 12:52:57 2009 From: icipasla at gmail.com (Normand Fisher) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:52:57 -0500 Subject: Old DEC Power Supplies (861C and 874A) Message-ID: I have both an old 861C and a 874A which are very noisy and trigger off after a short period under load. Would someone, by chance, have a copy of the schematics? Or matter of fact any knowledge as to the cause this behavior (old capacitors? etc...). Many thanks Normand From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Dec 19 05:13:38 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:13:38 +0000 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2CB562.7040201@axeside.co.uk> >> Since I lack a mouse for mine, can I put in a plea that whoever does >> adopt this system consider selling / trading me the mouse? 10 years ago > > I have -- somewhere -- an IBM optical mouse. I know nothing about it > other than it's 3-button, and IIRC the cable ends in a DE9 connector. > Inside is a microcontroller (8051). and not a lot else. I think I once > traced out some of the wiring back to the DE9 and came to the conclusion > tha the microntroller ran between the -ve supply line and something 5V > positiove wrt that and there was a transsitor buffer to make the output > RS232-like. > > > Amazingly I've found it. The label on the bottom says : > IBM > MOD 5277-1 > MODEL MOUSE > MFD BY SUMMAGRAPHICS CORP > FAIRFIELD CT USA > > It also says FCC IDD : BY78SDMOUSE > > I am not going to type out the FCC notice or attempt to reprocude the > barcode, but under the barcode is the stirg 71B35021819109 > > The connector is a DE9 with pins 1 and 3 mising > > Philip, if you think this will work on your 6150, you are welcome to try > it. I don;'t have the mouse pad (and as I said it's optical, from the > time when you needed a special mouse pad for optical mice), and it is, of > course, untested.. Thanks for the offer, Tony, but that isn't a 6150 mouse. I think it is the IBM mouse that went with some of their PC-cum-graphics-terminal boxes. 5271 was the 3270-PC, 5272 the rather nice monitor that went with it; and I think the nice graphics versions ere higher in the 527X numbers. In the same way 537X were some AT based ones with even nicer monitors and graphics coprocessors in separate boxes. I remember some of those had optical mice with the strange shiny mouse mats. I am guessing from the number that 5277 is the mouse from this series. There seems to have been some list discussion on the 6150 mouse. What I remember is that it had a ball not an optical motion sensor; and the thing that makes it really difficult to find is the connector, which was a strange 6-pin one (rectangular, two rows of pins like a ribbon cable header, but I think the pitch was smaller - 2mm? - socket on cable, plug on motherboard) FWIW I think 3-button mice transmit the middle button as a simultaneous press of the other two, so that ought to work on a 6150. Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Dec 19 11:44:45 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:44:45 +0000 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B26A483.4070407@jwsss.com> References: <1b8801ca7d03$b33e5120$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B26A483.4070407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4B2D110D.7020509@axeside.co.uk> > It is a 6 pin IDP connector. Rectangular. One can make up a tail to > get to it by using a 6 pin IDP and a short ribbon cable. I don't think it is. I agree it's the same spacing (I thought it was smaller, but I just measured the one on my 6150 monitor), but I don't think there's room at the ends for the clamps that hold an insulation displacement block together. It's polarised by the overlap of the metal shell, and the rubber moulding around it, not by any of the keys normally found on IDCs. Philip. From zudmsc at earthlink.net Sat Dec 19 17:26:31 2009 From: zudmsc at earthlink.net (Michael) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:26:31 -0600 Subject: Anyone want a Kontron? Message-ID: <3BE369B4621E41D587C4888DC4BF3A5B@nascar1> Do you still have it? Michael From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Dec 19 21:58:58 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:58:58 -0600 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2DA102.4030908@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > [Repairing a transistor] > >> Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work >> situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to > > I've done that sort of thing to PROMs and PAls that have lost the odd > pin. > > I normally use a hand file (as I did on the transistor in the Epson > printer), it seems more controllable to me. This chip was soldered (on all 4 sides) in the middle of a fair size PCB so I don't think I could have gotten to that spot with a file. It also had several lifted pins with "blue-wires" going various places, and I absolutely did not want to disturb any of those. The pin got broken off in the first place while trying to blue-wire it. Some IC pin metal seems to be quite brittle. Also, to be honest, I probably would not have thought a file would cut through the encapsulation or be precise enough in this case to expose just that one bit of metal. I can visualize what you mean though; until I got a bit of a pit created it was difficult to hold the bit in the right spot. > > To be honest I'd rather have replaced the transistor, but I can't find a > sensible source of 2SB705s. I think I found one dubious-looking website A new CPU would have been nice for us too, except for all the other blue-wired pins. I was the "software" guy and I'm not sure what hot-air soldering tools the other guy had access to either. I think there may have been something out in the manufacturing area. I know there were none in the engineering lab - typical mom and pop operation - I was lucky to find a small cutter for the Dremel tool. > [1] Tower's International Transistor Selector. I don't know if this book > is known outside the UK, but it basically gives 1 line of specs on just > about every transistor ever made. There's a similar one for FETs (JFETs > and MOSFETs( and one for Op-amps/Comaparators. And some others that are > less useful IMHO. But those 3 (and in particular the bipolar transsitor > one) ave very useful for anyone fixing old stuff. I'm not familiar with that; thanks for the tip. > -tony > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 11:37:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:37:46 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B2DF06A.23853.36019F@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2009 at 10:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > > iButtons? Much smaller than a meg or two, but might be useful for > some of the things you're talking about. And they're absolutely > indestructible. They're on the right track. Sealed stainless can, 1-wire operation. Toss 'em in your pocket, drop them in your coffee, no harm. But 8KB (64Kb) is much too small. At least someone's thinking about the matter... How long will an SD card survive being immersed in Coke? Don't laugh- -I recently rescued a QIC cart that had that gummy stuff in its innards--for over a decade. With a new tension band, after cleaning, it read fine. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 20 12:00:16 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:00:16 -0800 Subject: pdp 8a prom images ??? where ??? In-Reply-To: <4B2D76D5.7010307@bitsavers.org> References: <121820090533.12177.4B2B14180007C72300002F9122230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <4B2D76D5.7010307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B2E6630.7080705@bitsavers.org> On 12/19/09 4:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I should be able to find them. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/firmware From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 20 12:42:41 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 19:42:41 +0100 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: <200912161030.59241.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20091220194241.66f03c6e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:15:14 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Anmyway, due ot carelessness (mine ;-(), all 3 > pins of the transistor fell off. I couldn't find a source of a > replacement, so I cafefuilly filed away the edge of the package to expose > the remains of the pins and soldered them back on. Amazingly it worked. That is about the same way as I attach new batteries to "Sun NVRAMs"... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 13:57:01 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:57:01 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) References: <20091219191255.B4A35BA5441@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2CCE6A.134.E17076@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <09cf01ca81ae$d3985970$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > What we no longer have is convenient inexpensive storage for modest > amounts of information, say a megabyte or two? Ideally, such a > medium would be read-mostly or write-once and a handful of them would > buy a cup of coffee at your local watering hole. It depends. - SD cards will be around for a long time - 10+ years - SD cards were sold by billions. With B. So it is pretty easy to find one at the wild, even at the poorest countries - SDHC are rectroatively compatible with SD, so if you need a megabyte or so, you CAN use a SDHC card in place of a SD card. Try it yourself if you don~t believe me. I still believe in market dominance by SD simplicity. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 20 12:40:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:40:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation In-Reply-To: <4B2CCE6A.134.E17076@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 19, 9 01:00:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 19 Dec 2009 at 14:12, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Rather than try to decide on the "one right way" to do things > > going into the future, don't all of us in fact end up diversifying > > into what's available now and then shifting up to new interfaces over > > time as they become proven? > > That's nice in theory. But what about as an upgrade to a 30-year old > piece of industrial gear that expects to see at least another 20 > years of useful life? Will your upgrade use a medium that will be > available for the next 20 years, when even USB will only be a memory > to hard-core collectors? For my original suggestion (an HP disk replacement), does it matter? My idea was to make a box that plugs into the HPIB and pretends to be an HP hard disk. But using some kind of modern-ish flash memory. I wasn't even necessarily intending that storage to be user-removeable. In 20 years time when you can no longer get CF cards or SD cards, or whatever, you grab the firmware sources (that's one reason I'd like the design to be open), and modidy it for whatever storage you can get then. Much of the program code would be the same, I suspect. Several of my (and others here, I guess) old HPs depend on these HP hard disk units. And while I can fix the controllers and PSUs, they do use ST412-interfaced winchester drives that I would have problems repairing (to put it mildly) Hence my desire to find a replacement. An HPIB drive emulaotr would involve no modification to the host system, it would just plug in (on the same HPIB as the real HP drives if you want). > What we no longer have is convenient inexpensive storage for modest > amounts of information, say a megabyte or two? Ideally, such a > medium would be read-mostly or write-once and a handful of them would > buy a cup of coffee at your local watering hole. THis has got me thinking about a related issue, About 20 years ago when I was an undergraduate, the computers I then owned couldn't read/write any of the floppy disks commonly used at the university. I generally transfered data using what I refered to as 'optical WORM tape'. You know,the 1" wide stuff with 9 holes across it :-). Now again I can't read or write any of the standard interchange media. OK, I can read (but not write) CD ROMs if I have to. But not DVD-ROMs. USB sticks, any of the flash memory cards, and so on. At least I can now e-mail data to people.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 20 12:45:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:45:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation In-Reply-To: <4B2D3493.15763.270812B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 19, 9 08:16:19 pm Message-ID: > gather 'round the big-screen OLED and sing "O Tannenbaum". While I quite liked Minix, I think that's going a bit far :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 20 12:50:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:50:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C In-Reply-To: <4B2DEC96.6030204@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 20, 9 01:21:26 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The DEC power cotnrollers are _very_ simple inside, and you don't really > > need tjhe printsets to repair them. > > > You need the print set of a DEC power control if you're trying to figure > out why the power control in a Type 30 point-plot display attached to a > PDP-1 keeps tripping its circuit breaker as soon as mains voltage is > applied to its input. Once you have the print set, it becomes apparent Well, OK, if the Phantom (as the Radiophile magazine calls him) or that well-know UK radio amateur M0RON has been in there before you then all bets are off. > that someone seriously miswired the innards of the power control, > possibly in a previous misguided repair attempt. Upon rewiring it to > factory spec, and replacing a switch on the front of the power control > that turned into a dead short when it was miswired, it will then work > properly. However, I suspect in this case I could have got it doing the right things without a printset. Not necessarily the original DEC circuit, but at least not shorting out the mains. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 20 12:25:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:25:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B2D110D.7020509@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Dec 19, 9 05:44:45 pm Message-ID: > > > It is a 6 pin IDP connector. Rectangular. One can make up a tail to > > get to it by using a 6 pin IDP and a short ribbon cable. > > I don't think it is. I agree it's the same spacing (I thought it was If it is a 0.1" matrix, then I think one of the standard suppliers (maybe Farnell) do something that will fit. Probably made by AMP or Molex. I've seen such connectors used in 5.25" hard drives and the like. If you've got a headcrasshed one, it might be worth seeing if you can raid a connecotr and cable from it. > smaller, but I just measured the one on my 6150 monitor), but I don't > think there's room at the ends for the clamps that hold an insulation > displacement block together. > > It's polarised by the overlap of the metal shell, and the rubber > moulding around it, not by any of the keys normally found on IDCs. Since you're the only person likely to be plugging it in, can;'t you just mark it 'Top' or something? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 20 12:29:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:29:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: <4B2CCB80.20718.D60E57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 19, 9 12:48:00 pm Message-ID: [2SB705] > Well, there's the NTE92: > > http://www.nteinc.com/specs/10to99/pdf/nte92.pdf NTE parts are unknwon across the Pond. The only time I come across them is on lists like this. Does the fact that there is an NTE cross-reference imply it's still available? As I mentioned, I have the basic characteristics (apart from the pinout) from Towers. Getting the pinout was trivial (only one combination makes electrical sense -- from memory, with the pins down and the mounting face away from you, the pins are B C E in that order). Since this is a linear PSU, it's likely that anything with the same specs would work (I would be more careful in an SMPSU of course). -tony From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Dec 20 14:45:22 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:45:22 +0100 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <200912200537.nBK5bS5f065367@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20091220204522.GB24044@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 11:29:46PM -0600, John Foust wrote: > At 09:05 PM 12/19/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit > >card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in > >quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable > >on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as > >read-lots is supported. What fills that role today? > > > Email. :-) > > > But I sympathize. For many years, I thought there should be a > keyfob device that could send and receive similar biz-card quantities > of personal info, but transfer via audio over the phone or in-person. > How many man-days have you spent writing or saying addresses? > > These days, how hard would be it be to modem-tone a URL at the > end of a radio advert or a TV advert? Why aren't street billboards > emitting useful data via Bluetooth and WiFi? Why am I looking at an ad > and then still typing the URL on my Internet-connected phone? Well, what could be done is to attach a QR-Code (two-dimensional barcode, designed to be well readable even under adverse conditions) and have the camera on said phone scan it. Just point the phone, hit scan and go to the encoded URL. Works quite well. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 15:08:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:08:05 -0800 Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: <4B2CCB80.20718.D60E57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 19, 9 12:48:00 pm, Message-ID: <4B2E21B5.21549.F68E58@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2009 at 18:29, Tony Duell wrote: > Does the fact that there is an NTE cross-reference imply it's still > available? Generally, yes. A quick web search shows at least one vendor with it in stock for $10.85. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 20 15:01:06 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:01:06 +0000 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B2CB562.7040201@axeside.co.uk> References: <4B2CB562.7040201@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B2E9092.6000804@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/12/2009 11:13, Philip Belben wrote: > FWIW I think 3-button mice transmit the middle button as a simultaneous > press of the other two, so that ought to work on a 6150. Unlikely, certainly the ones I've come across don't. You may be thinking of two-button mouse operation under Linux; the driver can detect simultaneous pressing of both buttons on a 2-button PS/2 or serial mouse to emulate the middle button, but that's not what a real 3-button mouse does. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 20 15:49:06 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:49:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091220133920.U91139@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm just trying to figure out where to place my bet. > SD looks pretty safe so far, at least to me. How do you label cards? Stick-on labels can't be used for many applications, particularly for Micro-sd. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 20 16:01:34 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:01:34 -0700 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: References: <4B2E4849.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B2E9EBE.7050408@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> In hindsight, could the DEC-20 or RISC version of it >> had marketing and other bad luck changed ,and >> today replaced the PC in many applications? > > Six bit based architectures all died with the rise of the IBM S/360 > family. DEC, CDC, Univac. > > It also did not help that many of these old line mainframe > architectures were getting hard to extend. For the DEC 36 bitters - > what does one do after the 18 bit address pointer, with two neatly > stuffed into a 36 bit word? A kludge. What does one do after the 36 > bit address pointer? A worse kludge. I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 bit machine? > -- > Will > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 20 16:02:17 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:02:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B2D110D.7020509@axeside.co.uk> References: <1b8801ca7d03$b33e5120$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B26A483.4070407@jwsss.com> <4B2D110D.7020509@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <20091220140144.V91139@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Philip Belben wrote: > I don't think it is. I agree it's the same spacing (I thought it was > smaller, but I just measured the one on my 6150 monitor), but I don't > think there's room at the ends for the clamps that hold an insulation > displacement block together. > It's polarised by the overlap of the metal shell, and the rubber > moulding around it, not by any of the keys normally found on IDCs. Same as the connectors on the PCJr? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:04:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:04:32 -0500 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: <4B2E9EBE.7050408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B2E4849.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B2E9EBE.7050408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 bit > machine? CDC 1604. CDC 3600. Maybe more. -- Will From thypope at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:18:34 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:18:34 +0200 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <4B2DC767.8010601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> <4B2DC767.8010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Ben wrote: > Alexandru Lovin wrote: > >> Sorry to barge in when the party's over, but can you please tell me how >> computers in general cope with cold temperatures depending on their >> generation ? Like, from 286 to P4 or vice-versa. I would also be >> interested >> to know about the Motorola 68k architecture or Zilog Z80 (as far as I know >> these are still made and used in various things, named eZ80). >> >> And hey, it depends on the P4. Socket 478 or LGA775? Yes, the LGA775 have >> killer operating temps. As someone once said, "free space heater." >> >> Thanks >> >> > So what ever happened with hi-temp super conducting computers. > > I suspect a Military/Space version of said CPU's may be available. > It would be the frost, not the cold that would kill the CPU then. > Oh no no, I was asking about civilian processors only, and about pure cold only (of course, it depends on the air humidity). It might be interesting to know about military spec ones, too, though. And I meant the P4 is a "free-space heater" and not "outer-space heater" :) From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:40:17 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:40:17 -0600 Subject: need specs for mag DJ920 Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912201440h3ca756c8q10bad66814ff22f@mail.gmail.com> I just got the monitor for free from craigs list. (and a lead on possible other equipment) Does anyone have the specs for this monitor? Google searches have been fruitless. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 16:48:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 14:48:46 -0800 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: References: , <4B2E9EBE.7050408@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <4B2E394E.13322.152BC20@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2009 at 17:04, William Donzelli wrote: > > I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 > > bit machine? > > CDC 1604. CDC 3600. Maybe more. A google on "48 bit word" turns up the following: "Incidentally, a somewhat larger number of computers had a 48-bit word length; some of them had 24-bit instructions, others 48-bit instructions, and some had variable-length instructions: the Control Data 1604 and 3600, the Honeywell 400, 800 and 1800 (and their progenitor, the Datamatic D1000), the Philco 2000 (whose central processor could have been the Philco 210, 211, or 212, and which was therefore sometimes referred to as the Philco 2000 Model 212 with a Philco 212 central processor), the RCA 601, the Maniac II, the AN/FSQ- 31 and AN/FSQ-32, which were both made by IBM for the U.S. government, the Elliot 4130 (later the I.C.L. 4130), the FACOM 202, the University of Manchester Atlas, and the I.C.T. Orion are computers with that word length. As is the BESM-6 from the Soviet Union, and several computers from the People's Republic of China: the Model 109C, the DJS-6 (also known as the Model 108B), the DJS-8 (also known as the Model 320), and an early prototype machine based on integrated circuits, the Model 013. Photographs of some of those computers are visible here; a larger picture of the Model 013 front panel appeared in an issue of Datamation magazine. DJS stands for Dianzi Jisuanji, the Putonghua phrase for "computer" (electronic calculator); the Kuo-y? phrase for computer is Tien Nao (electric brain) (in Pinyin, Diannao). Because the Burroughs B5500 and B6700 computers used a word containing 48 bits of data, but also extra bits that described the type of the data which played an important role in programming the machine, I would consider that series sufficiently out-of-the- ordinary to attempt to discuss here; the same applies to the English Electric KDF9 computer, which was stack-oriented like the Burroughs machine. The Telefunken TR440 computer also added two descriptor bits to each word with 48 bits of data, but these seem to only serve to protect the machine against accidentally interpreting instructions as data, or integers as floating-point quantities: its instructions were 24 bits long, with an 8-bit opcode and either a 16-bit address or two 8-bit indexed addresses, but I have not yet been able to derive the structure of an 8-bit address from the available references." http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cp0303.htm --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 20 18:18:10 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:18:10 -0800 Subject: paper tapes Message-ID: <4B2EBEC2.5030704@bitsavers.org> did anyone on the list buy these http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220526045578 i'm curious what the interest was From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 20 18:19:16 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:19:16 -0600 Subject: IBM RT-PC available In-Reply-To: <4B2E9092.6000804@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <2ba452512e40367dbd23e59c06903fb5@bellsouth.net> >> FWIW I think 3-button mice transmit the middle button as a simultaneous >> press of the other two, so that ought to work on a 6150. > > Unlikely, certainly the ones I've come across don't. You may be > thinking of two-button mouse operation under Linux; the driver can There were some that did, though I haven't dealt with ones that did that in a good 15 years. But I remember at the time figuring that's where the XFree86[1] guys got the practice of emulating the middle button. BLS [1] I don't think it was in the MIT X11 distribution, but I don't remember for sure. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 20 19:38:04 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:38:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> <4B2DC767.8010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20091220173713.H91139@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > And I meant the P4 is a "free-space heater" and not "outer-space heater" :) . . . and ignore intel's role in global warming? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 21 00:36:59 2009 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:36:59 -0800 Subject: Two I think punch card storage cabinets on OC CL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2F178B.3050300@socal.rr.com> I saw this on the Orange county (Calif) Craigslist, passing it along in case somebody needs some punched card storage, if thats what it actually is. Not much I can do to help anybody with it, no way to move it or place to store it, but if I can assist, email me directly. http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/1518819199.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 21 01:20:49 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:20:49 -0700 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: <4B2E394E.13322.152BC20@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B2E9EBE.7050408@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B2E394E.13322.152BC20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B2F21D1.90807@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Dec 2009 at 17:04, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 >>> bit machine? >> >> CDC 1604. CDC 3600. Maybe more. > > A google on "48 bit word" turns up the following: > Because the Burroughs B5500 and B6700 computers used a word > containing 48 bits of data, but also extra bits that described the > type of the data which played an important role in programming the > machine, I would consider that series sufficiently out-of-the- > ordinary to attempt to discuss here; the same applies to the English > Electric KDF9 computer, which was stack-oriented like the Burroughs > machine. The Telefunken TR440 computer also added two descriptor bits > to each word with 48 bits of data, but these seem to only serve to > protect the machine against accidentally interpreting instructions as > data, or integers as floating-point quantities: its instructions were > 24 bits long, with an 8-bit opcode and either a 16-bit address or two > 8-bit indexed addresses, but I have not yet been able to derive the > structure of an 8-bit address from the available references." > > http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cp0303.htm I was thinking large as greater than 18 bits of address space. For the machines listed here large is LARGE regardless of how much memory you had here. I guess I am best to go to bitsavers, and dig up real information now that I have a few names to look under. I suspect very little real hardware from that time frame is still working today. > --Chuck > Still this winter looks to be a good time to dig up more manuals in PDF form for the PDP-8 clone I have here. Opps ... I still need to pick up a PC keyboard for the terminal some time next after the yule time. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Dec 21 01:21:20 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:21:20 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200912210221.20589.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 19 December 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You miss the point. Suppose I have a small amount of data--consider, > for example, the electronic equivalent of a memo, or a business card, > a musical score, a simple diagram that I've jotted down. > > I'm not going to hand out a 4GB USB keychain fob for that. I don't > want to email the thing--it'd be like using the domestic post to hand > you my business card. > > Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit > card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in > quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable > on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as > read-lots is supported. > > What fills that role today? A URL printed on a business card? Or 1/2 of a business card to fit your size requirement. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 21 04:04:49 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:04:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > [Repairing a transistor] > >> Heh! That's beautiful. In a late-night, long-hours, weekend work >> situation I did that once on one pin of a 386EX using a Dremel tool to > > I've done that sort of thing to PROMs and PAls that have lost the odd > pin. Oh, that nothing ;-)) Have you ever "repaired" an EPROM with melted and broken bond wires? Some years ago I had an EPROM which I wanted to read out (with a very simple programmer without any safety circuits)... I put it in the wrong way, so the bolt wire for Vcc was open-circuit after that :-(( So I tried to break the glass window and managed to break some more wires. Oh well... So I took that EPROM, put it in a real good programmer, took a microscope, three more hands ;-), some very fine needles etc. I connected the needles (with a wire) to the programmer socket where the EPROM had a broken wire, pressed the needles (by hand!) onto the bonding pad of the EPROM chip and (with the help of another hand) triggered the read-out process. I think I managed to correctly read the contents after the fifth try. BTW bond wires look so thick and sturdy under a microscope until you see the needle right next to them... Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Dec 21 04:36:47 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:36:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: References: <4B2E4849.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B2E9EBE.7050408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 bit >> machine? > > CDC 1604. CDC 3600. Maybe more. Telefunken TR-4 and its successor, the TR-440, was a 48-bit machine. To be more precise, they were 52-bit machines, with the additional bits used as some kind of parity (Dreierprobe) and word type (Typenkennung). Christian From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:37:21 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:37:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RT-PC available: Going once.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Dec 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > In my ongoing effort at clearing space, I must part with my beloved IBM > RT-PC. This is a desktop form-factor with the "enhanced advanced CPU" (don't > you love 80s marketing-speak) running at a stunning 16Mhz. with 8MB of memory > on-board. > > I have upgraded it with a 1GB ATA drive and an Adaptec SCSI adapter and it's > currently loaded with AOS / BSD 4.4. Has ethernet adapter and was in-use on > my own network. > > Other items: > > - A bookshelf or two of documentation > - One or two of every expansion card ever made for the unit > - Extra mouse and keyboard (non-standard connectors) > - Multi-Port serial card for POS systems (?) > - Complete software distribution of AIX 2.x > - Complete AOS / BSD 4.3 > - The semi-mythical BSD 4.4 port w/ sources > - A couple of ESDI drives (original hard disk) > - The "academic" OS high-resolution grey-scale monitor w/ video adapter. > This supports X10 R-something under AOS. > > And probably many, many other goodies that slipped my mind. > > I'm open to negotiation on price, but the kicker is: > > You Gotta Come And Get It. There's enough stuff to fill the back of a small > van and I'm not even going to address shipment. > > I'm located in Burlington, VT. Please, someone give this a nice home? I've had zero response to this offer. The system is going to end up in recycling if no one claims it by January. Steve -- From ray at arachelian.com Mon Dec 21 09:37:50 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:37:50 -0500 (est) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit > card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in > quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable > on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as > read-lots is supported. > > What fills that role today? What's wrong with just sending an email, or a piece of paper with an URL, maybe shortened with tinyurl or whatever? That meets with your requirements and it's totally free. (They did make smallish ~50MB CD-R's, but the trouble with those is some machines use slot loading media, and those don't work there.) From thypope at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 10:42:46 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:42:46 +0200 Subject: Running Computers Cold In-Reply-To: <20091220173713.H91139@shell.lmi.net> References: <200912092116.nB9LGpDv016270@floodgap.com> <4B2DC767.8010601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20091220173713.H91139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 2009, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > > And I meant the P4 is a "free-space heater" and not "outer-space heater" > :) > > . . . and ignore intel's role in global warming? > > > > > > Hey, they're sorry, they make Atom processors now. I heard they're slower than the Pentium III at 1.4 GHz, but it's eco-friendly, green and all that. It matters that it's fashionable to follow trends, not that performance is down the gutter. That's why I kinda like honest single cores from the past. Even the P4, although I admit that they probably had some serious design flaws because they heated up so badly and needed monster cooling devices. But then again, so did AMD's Socket A processors. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 21 11:08:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:08:32 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2009 at 10:37, Ray Arachelian wrote: > What's wrong with just sending an email, or a piece of paper with an > URL, maybe shortened with tinyurl or whatever? That meets with your > requirements and it's totally free. You're assuming a connection to the internet. That's not always available--indeed, the particular application I'm thinking of isn't capable of networking at all--not even RS232C. Nor can the device support a browser or even ftp--memory is very limited. And, 20 years from now, who will still have the email? Will the url still point to anything meaningful? I have handwritten notes in my files from people who have long departed this vale of tears. Where will similar URLs be? What a horrible situation for archivists and historians! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 21 11:09:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:09:56 -0800 Subject: IBM RT-PC available: Going once.. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B2F3B64.32426.CD602@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2009 at 8:37, Steven Hirsch wrote: Steven, I hope someone picks that system up from you--RTs are rare enough, but ones with full documentation are more uncommon. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 11:23:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:23:35 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > You're assuming a connection to the internet. We are getting very close to being able to assume that. Most of the US, Asian, and European population, anyway. Even the bums have internet connected phones these days. > And, 20 years from now, who will still have the email? ?Will the url > still point to anything meaningful? ?I have handwritten notes in my > files from people who have long departed this vale of tears. ?Where > will similar URLs be? > > What a horrible situation for archivists and historians! How is this different from changing phone numbers? Changing mail addresses? Changing business associations? Changing names (mostly for the fair sex)? How many people *really* keep all their handwritten notes organized? I think you are asking for too much. Chaos then, now and forever more! -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 21 10:08:02 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:08:02 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091220133920.U91139@shell.lmi.net> References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> <20091220133920.U91139@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9AAB6490-585A-466A-8F94-E958469CFEAD@neurotica.com> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I'm just trying to figure out where to place my bet. >> SD looks pretty safe so far, at least to me. > > How do you label cards? Stick-on labels can't be used for many > applications, particularly for Micro-sd. When I need to, I just write on them with a small Sharpie. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 21 11:43:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:43:55 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2DF06A.23853.36019F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B2DF06A.23853.36019F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 20, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> iButtons? Much smaller than a meg or two, but might be useful for >> some of the things you're talking about. And they're absolutely >> indestructible. > > They're on the right track. Sealed stainless can, 1-wire operation. > Toss 'em in your pocket, drop them in your coffee, no harm. But 8KB > (64Kb) is much too small. At least someone's thinking about the > matter... Yes. They could easily put more memory in there of course. I hope they do. I've had an iButton in a nice leather fob, almost fully exposed, on my keyring in my pocket for about eleven years now. That's a pretty harsh environment (getting crunched up against keys, etc) but it still works wonderfully. The engraved serial number and part number have long since worn off. > How long will an SD card survive being immersed in Coke? Don't laugh- > -I recently rescued a QIC cart that had that gummy stuff in its > innards--for over a decade. With a new tension band, after cleaning, > it read fine. Wow, that's impressive. I can't think of any consumer-grade memory technology (except iButtons of course) that would survive that. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alanp at snowmoose.com Mon Dec 21 12:15:22 2009 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:15:22 -0800 Subject: Burroughs B5500 and successors (Was: Happy DEC-20 Day!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2FBB3A.1070303@snowmoose.com> > > From: Ben > >> Because the Burroughs B5500 and B6700 computers used a word >> containing 48 bits of data, but also extra bits that described the >> type of the data which played an important role in programming the >> machine, I would consider that series sufficiently out-of-the- >> ordinary to attempt to discuss here; This also included the Burroughs/Unisys A-series systems that were made into the early 90s. The A-series systems used a 52-bit, tagged word. 1 bit of parity, 3 bits of tag and 48 bits of data. I don't recall how the addressing worked and Al has my papers on the architecture, so I can't look it up ... alan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 21 12:24:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:24:13 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B2F4CCD.35.50D9C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2009 at 12:23, William Donzelli wrote: > I think you are asking for too much. That's true, I probably am. What would be the point of organizing handwritten notes? How many kids can read and write cursive script, anyway? But I do like the idea of the iButton. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 21 14:33:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:33:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hackable DVD players (was Re: Amiga Demo's) In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 21, 9 11:04:49 am Message-ID: > Oh, that nothing ;-)) Have you ever "repaired" an EPROM with melted and > broken bond wires? Err no. But I have repaired an Avalanche photodiode that had lost its bondout wire (the other connection was made by having the substrate of the device on a metal header). The fact there was only one wire made it a lote eaiser. I literally soldered a piece of very fine, well-tinned wire to the pin on the header, got it to the right point on the die and just touched it with a hot soldering iron. Amazingly the device worked afterwards... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 21 15:37:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:37:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <9AAB6490-585A-466A-8F94-E958469CFEAD@neurotica.com> References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> <20091220133920.U91139@shell.lmi.net> <9AAB6490-585A-466A-8F94-E958469CFEAD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20091221132738.J28755@shell.lmi.net> > > How do you label cards? Stick-on labels can't be used for many > > applications, particularly for Micro-sd. > When I need to, I just write on them with a small Sharpie. Micro-SD doesn't give much room for writing on (particularly with presbyopia), and the uniquitous black plastic limits the Sharpie choices. I'm tempted to drill a hole through them to be able to string them together for storage. The Sandisk "Plus" SD, and the "Micro-SD Trio" (Micro-SD adapter in a similar form) are a lot more convenient when you don't always know ahead of time what card slot or USB port will be available. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 21 15:44:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:44:47 -0500 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <20091221132738.J28755@shell.lmi.net> References: , <069c01ca80d2$54d2d070$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B2CA4CB.16700.3ED9C8@cclist.sydex.com> <20091220133920.U91139@shell.lmi.net> <9AAB6490-585A-466A-8F94-E958469CFEAD@neurotica.com> <20091221132738.J28755@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1D98CF0C-B8D4-4511-906F-BB82C591E9A7@neurotica.com> On Dec 21, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> How do you label cards? Stick-on labels can't be used for many >>> applications, particularly for Micro-sd. >> When I need to, I just write on them with a small Sharpie. > > Micro-SD doesn't give much room for writing on (particularly with > presbyopia), and the uniquitous black plastic limits the Sharpie > choices. I have very small handwriting, enough for an abbreviated label. And black marker on a black surface is usually visible when you tilt it just right. It has been ok. > I'm tempted to drill a hole through them to be able to string them > together for storage. *snicker* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 15:47:11 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:47:11 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0f1601ca8287$9b0a4da0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit >> card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in >> quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable >> on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as >> read-lots is supported. >> What fills that role today? Can anything be made CHEAPER than CD-Rs? From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Dec 21 18:09:11 2009 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:09:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > >> gather 'round the big-screen OLED and sing "O Tannenbaum". > > While I quite liked Minix, I think that's going a bit far :-) I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that :-) Alexey From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 21 18:13:45 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:13:45 -0800 Subject: MDS Series IV schematics on line Message-ID: <4B300F39.8090800@bitsavers.org> under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/MDS4 thanks to Bob R. for the loan of the originals still looking for a couple of other multibus hardware manuals isbc286/10, 386, 486S, 214, 215, 221 disk, 550,552 ethernet nj From ss at allegro.com Mon Dec 21 18:23:01 2009 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:23:01 -0800 Subject: HP 3000 micro GX with MPE/V OS. need tape In-Reply-To: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9@MHS> References: <121820090545.19564.4B2B16F8000E992200004C6C22230647629B0A02D29B9@MHS> Message-ID: <897D6DDA-1BB9-4719-B363-8CC1C24CF8E4@allegro.com> Hi, Where are you located? Can you use DDS (DAT) media? I'm one of the "too busy" people, but perhaps I can get some time in between now and the New Year. On Dec 17, 2009, at 9:45 PM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > I'm back to try this again. I need a boot tape for a HP 3000 > Micro GX machine. Does anyone have a working machine > or a tape. I can use almost any media. I had 2 list members > say they would help but they seem to be too busy and its > been 6 months. I would really like to get this going. > > Thanks, Jerry > g-wright at att.net > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 21 19:35:29 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:35:29 -0500 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> >Philip Pemberton wrote: > Also, does anyone know of an app that can take the PDF file, OCR it > and then insert the text as a background layer while leaving the image > alone? I'm pretty sure Acrobat can do this, but like most Adobe > software, the price tag is somewhat... eye-watering. "If you have to > ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." I attempted to check all the responses, however I did not find any which addressed the reverse operation, i.e. from PDF to text. Fortunately, all my PDF files are MACRO-11 "Listing" output without any diagrams or images. i.e. COMPLETE and ONLY text. I scanned Google, but did not find anything very helpful. Is it possible to obtain a suggestion here? I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that were scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original text source files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other than typing in the code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good freeware programs to convert a PDF back to a text file? The next step will be to strip out the MACRO-11 "Listing" format and keep only the original source code. I will probably use FORTRAN, but perhaps someone has already done that as well? These PDF listing are from the 1980s and belong to source code for a DEC PDP-11 system. While the "PDF to Text" program is most likely going to be run under in DOS box, I hope that the actual problem qualifies to be considered here. Actually, my system that supports my browser will be Windows XP and I don't have any other choice (unless I agree to spend considerable time to learn another operating system - in which case I may not have enough time to pursue the actual problem), so a Windows compatible program is what I will need to use. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 21 19:55:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:55:24 -0800 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk>, <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B2FB68C.25837.1EDEAB0@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2009 at 20:35, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that were > scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original text > source files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other > than typing in the code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good > freeware programs to convert a PDF back to a text file? I kind of like the idea of using Google to do my work: http://www.labnol.org/software/convert-scanned-pdf-images-to-text- with-google-ocr/5158/ But if you search OCR PDF, you'll get lots of choices, including some free online services. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 21 20:36:13 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:36:13 -0800 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B2FB68C.25837.1EDEAB0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk>, <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> <4B2FB68C.25837.1EDEAB0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B30309D.8040505@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/09 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Dec 2009 at 20:35, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that were >> scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original text >> source files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other >> than typing in the code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good >> freeware programs to convert a PDF back to a text file? > > I kind of like the idea of using Google to do my work: > > http://www.labnol.org/software/convert-scanned-pdf-images-to-text- > with-google-ocr/5158/ > > But if you search OCR PDF, you'll get lots of choices, including some > free online services. > The problem is they all do lousy job of OCR on line printer output. James Markevitch was working on a program designed for LP output, but haven't heard much about it lately. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 21 20:38:10 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:38:10 -0800 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B303112.1000606@bitsavers.org> On 12/21/09 5:35 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that were > scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original text > source > files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other than typing > in the > code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good freeware programs > to convert a PDF back to a text file? > sounds like the TSX-Plus listings I scanned for Lyle. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 21 22:03:17 2009 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:03:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSI Journals In-Reply-To: References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> Message-ID: <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, If there are any OSI afficionados out there, I just had a bunch of old PEEK(65), Aardvark, and OSI small system journals scanned into PDFs, and as I don't have space for the originals, I'm curious if somebody wants these. They occupy one document storage box. Most of the journals were punched with a 3-hole punch by prior owners, so they're ready to store in 3-ring binders. Also, I have a light-blue OSI 3-ring binder which I got with my OS-65D documentation way back when. I have the docs on my bookshelf, but the binder takes up too much space, so if someone wants it for their docs, let me know. Finally, I have an 8" disk copy of a programming language for OSI called "Beta 65", but no docs. If want it, let me know. All the best, Dave ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:16:58 AM Subject: Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin > >The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had to do with anything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From RBORSUK at COLOURFULL.COM Mon Dec 21 23:10:46 2009 From: RBORSUK at COLOURFULL.COM (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:10:46 -0500 Subject: Opening 20 year old software on it's anniversary Message-ID: So about a month ago I purchased some Wang branded MSDOS software off of eBay. Much to my delight, when it arrived, it was still factory sealed. I showed my wife the date of manufacture on the label and she suggested I wait to open it. I reluctantly agreed to wait. So it's been about a month and today is the day. Please enjoy some pictures of the moment. http://gallery.me.com/irisworld/100109 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From george at rachors.com Tue Dec 22 00:28:55 2009 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:28:55 -0800 Subject: OSI Journals In-Reply-To: <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0685A60E-EA87-4285-B82C-9F8AC0A10ABD@rachors.com> I also don't really have room for this but wouldn't mind the pdf's... Best Regards, George Rachor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, OR http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Dave wrote: > Hello, > > If there are any OSI afficionados out there, I just had a bunch of old PEEK(65), Aardvark, and OSI small system journals scanned into PDFs, and as I don't have space for the originals, I'm curious if somebody wants these. They occupy one document storage box. Most of the journals were punched with a 3-hole punch by prior owners, so they're ready to store in 3-ring binders. > > Also, I have a light-blue OSI 3-ring binder which I got with my OS-65D documentation way back when. I have the docs on my bookshelf, but the binder takes up too much space, so if someone wants it for their docs, let me know. > > Finally, I have an 8" disk copy of a programming language for OSI called "Beta 65", but no docs. If want it, let me know. > > All the best, > > Dave > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Zane H. Healy > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:16:58 AM > Subject: Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) > > At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> >>> http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin >> >> The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. > > Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had > to do with anything. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > > > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 01:36:08 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:36:08 -0800 Subject: Opening 20 year old software on it's anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So about a month ago I purchased some Wang branded MSDOS software off of eBay. ?Much to my delight, when it arrived, it was still factory sealed. ? I showed my wife the date of manufacture on the label and she suggested I wait to open it. ? I reluctantly agreed to wait. ?So it's been about a month and today is the day. ? Please enjoy some pictures of the moment. > > http://gallery.me.com/irisworld/100109 Pretty rare software from Wang for the Professional Computer. I remember that system. I had quite a few go through my hands 15 years ago. However I never saw one with a 3 1/2 in disk drive, althought I bet it showed up late in the product lifecycle. Do you have the computer to run the SW on? Wang originally had non standard video on it but otherwise ran MS-DOS Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA ch drive From dfgraemedf at btinternet.com Tue Dec 22 02:22:06 2009 From: dfgraemedf at btinternet.com (graeme) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:22:06 -0000 Subject: OSI Journals In-Reply-To: <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01ca82df$d98c7820$8ca56860$@com> Dave, Yes please I do have a collection and will arrange to compare and upload any that you do not have to the site . Regards Graeme. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: 22 December 2009 04:03 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OSI Journals Hello, If there are any OSI afficionados out there, I just had a bunch of old PEEK(65), Aardvark, and OSI small system journals scanned into PDFs, and as I don't have space for the originals, I'm curious if somebody wants these. They occupy one document storage box. Most of the journals were punched with a 3-hole punch by prior owners, so they're ready to store in 3-ring binders. Also, I have a light-blue OSI 3-ring binder which I got with my OS-65D documentation way back when. I have the docs on my bookshelf, but the binder takes up too much space, so if someone wants it for their docs, let me know. Finally, I have an 8" disk copy of a programming language for OSI called "Beta 65", but no docs. If want it, let me know. All the best, Dave ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:16:58 AM Subject: Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin > >The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had to do with anything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 21 16:20:22 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:20:22 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <0f1601ca8287$9b0a4da0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <0f1601ca8287$9b0a4da0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B2FF4A6.2050303@jwsss.com> A "music" cd format product is about .80 in 1000's (sometimes in 500's depending on the house doing the work being hungry). that includes the media, cd carrier, a printed cover, and shrink wrapped. I don't know if the credit card size cd's would be comparable or not. The above also applied to product we priced with software, they didn't care what was recorded on the cd. Also the media was not from "CDR" but was actually mask mastered media. Jim Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Ideally, I'd want something cheap, about half the size of a credit >>> card (so it's not easy to lose) that cost about a quarter in >>> quantities of 1000. Should hold a megabyte or two and be readable >>> on any computer or mobile device. Write-once is okay, as long as >>> read-lots is supported. >>> What fills that role today? > > Can anything be made CHEAPER than CD-Rs? > > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Dec 22 08:22:25 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:22:25 -0500 Subject: Opening 20 year old software on it's anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <045B53F6-6BF5-4D10-853A-AA3EEC9278BB@colourfull.com> On Dec 22, 2009, at 2:36 AM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Pretty rare software from Wang for the Professional Computer. I > remember that system. I had quite a few go through my hands 15 years > ago. > > However I never saw one with a 3 1/2 in disk drive, althought I bet it > showed up late in the product lifecycle. > > Do you have the computer to run the SW on? > > Wang originally had non standard video on it but otherwise ran MS-DOS > > Pax > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > > ch drive I have a PC-002 that doesn't have software, but also doesn't have a 3 1/2 drive. That kind of surprised me too. I wonder how the drive controller would handle a 3 1/2 drive? I've really fallen in love with these Wang systems. I find them incredibly interesting. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Dec 22 08:51:13 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:51:13 -0500 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B2FB68C.25837.1EDEAB0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk>, <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> <4B2FB68C.25837.1EDEAB0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B30DCE1.5080207@verizon.net> On 21 Dec 2009 at 20:35, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that were >> scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original text >> source files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other >> than typing in the code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good >> freeware programs to convert a PDF back to a text file? Jerome, As the link Chuck gave you talked about, there's a big difference depending on how the PDF's were created originally. You need to find out if the PDF was created from images, or created from Word or some other text editor(or text source.) You can tell the difference by trying to select some text in Adobe Reader. Right-click the document and pick the "Select Tool." Then try to select some text, if the whole document turns blue (selected), then it was converted from a scan, otherwise you can probably just cut and paste. If converted from a scan, you'll need to OCR it. I've had pretty good results with machine printed code, but given the age/scan quality/print quality can vary the results considerably. See my previous post on what I use to OCR. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 22 08:56:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:56:23 -0500 Subject: Opening 20 year old software on it's anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2009, at 2:36 AM, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> So about a month ago I purchased some Wang branded MSDOS software >> off of eBay. Much to my delight, when it arrived, it was still >> factory sealed. I showed my wife the date of manufacture on the >> label and she suggested I wait to open it. I reluctantly agreed >> to wait. So it's been about a month and today is the day. >> Please enjoy some pictures of the moment. >> >> http://gallery.me.com/irisworld/100109 > > Pretty rare software from Wang for the Professional Computer. I > remember that system. I had quite a few go through my hands 15 years > ago. I used to do depot and field repairs on those machines for a company in NJ, around 1988-1989. They're built like tanks and are generally good machines. > However I never saw one with a 3 1/2 in disk drive, althought I bet it > showed up late in the product lifecycle. The PC/240, PC/280 and PC/380 had 3.5" drives as an option, if memory serves. These were ISA-bus machines that followed the physically larger (and much better-built) Professional Computer line. > Wang originally had non standard video on it but otherwise ran MS-DOS ...but that nonstandard video was *wonderful*. I totally fell in love with their tiny monochrome monitor, I think it was a PM-004. They were some of the sharpest monochrome CRTs I've ever seen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 22 09:14:02 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:14:02 -0500 Subject: Opening 20 year old software on it's anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09BBBA8A-300A-4A7C-AA84-5ED1FF5B92BB@neurotica.com> On Dec 22, 2009, at 12:10 AM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > So about a month ago I purchased some Wang branded MSDOS software > off of eBay. Much to my delight, when it arrived, it was still > factory sealed. I showed my wife the date of manufacture on the > label and she suggested I wait to open it. I reluctantly agreed > to wait. So it's been about a month and today is the day. Please > enjoy some pictures of the moment. > > http://gallery.me.com/irisworld/100109 Wow...I remember those packages!! :-) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Dec 22 09:22:36 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:22:36 -0500 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B303112.1000606@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20091221_213955_014849_ECCCACB6) References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> <4B303112.1000606@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20091221_213955_014849_ECCCACB6) Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/21/09 5:35 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that >> were >> scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original text >> source >> files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other than >> typing >> in the >> code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good freeware programs >> to convert a PDF back to a text file? >> > > sounds like the TSX-Plus listings I scanned for Lyle. I spent a little time playing with ocropus and then teseract, trying to scan pdp-11 diags back to text. I didn't have good luck. I'd be interested if others have a working formula. I did have a little fun "training" tereract on the line printer font. I think that technique holds promise but it needed more data to do a good job (my initial sample was too small, but did improve things a lot). just curious if anyone else has tried training one of the ocr programs to read line printer fonts. -brad From ray at arachelian.com Tue Dec 22 09:36:53 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:36:53 -0500 (est) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You're assuming a connection to the internet. That's not always > available--indeed, the particular application I'm thinking of isn't > capable of networking at all--not even RS232C. Nor can the device > support a browser or even ftp--memory is very limited. Well, you haven't exactly told us all the requirements ahead of time. So sounds like what you want is an EEPROM or other ROM equivalent, to be distributed via sneakernet. > And, 20 years from now, who will still have the email? Well, I for one would. :) I've emails going back many years across many systems. If you want to keep it you can. > Will the url > still point to anything meaningful? That's upto whomever manages the server/domain. If you own the domain name and control the server, you can maintain it until hell freezes over. Or not. > I have handwritten notes in my > files from people who have long departed this vale of tears. Where > will similar URLs be? wiseass answer: archive.org? :-) All depends on what the goals are. Some things are better left to expire, others are well worth saving. Depends on what it is, who it is that decide and when they decide. I've thrown things out many years ago that I sometimes now wish I still had. It does happen. > What a horrible situation for archivists and historians! So, what is this thing you're trying to build? You've got my curiosity up. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Tue Dec 22 09:39:51 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:39:51 -0500 (est) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulationprogramavailable) In-Reply-To: <0f1601ca8287$9b0a4da0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com> <0f1601ca8287$9b0a4da0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Dec 2009, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Can anything be made CHEAPER than CD-Rs? 2D barcodes laser printed on good paper? Won't get you as much storage though, but might last longer. If there's concern over wetness, they can always be laminated. From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Dec 22 09:49:19 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:49:19 -0500 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> <4B303112.1000606@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20091221_213955_014849_ECCCACB6) Message-ID: <4B30EA7F.9050806@verizon.net> Brad Parker wrote: > I did have a little fun "training" tereract on the line printer font. I > think that > technique holds promise but it needed more data to do a good job (my > initial sample > was too small, but did improve things a lot). > > just curious if anyone else has tried training one of the ocr programs > to read > line printer fonts. > > -brad > Can someone send me an example of the PDF? I can always run a page or two through abbyy and see what happens. Thanks Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 10:11:49 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:11:49 -0200 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc driveemulationprogramavailable) References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><4B2D23E1.16784.22F4789@cclist.sydex.com><0f1601ca8287$9b0a4da0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <141c01ca8322$6a0e76e0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Can anything be made CHEAPER than CD-Rs? > 2D barcodes laser printed on good paper? Won't get you as much storage > though, but might last longer. If there's concern over wetness, they can > always be laminated. Ok, you won :o) From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Dec 22 10:34:55 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:34:55 -0600 Subject: OSI Journals In-Reply-To: <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE><4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46643@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Are the PDF's available? Thanks. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OSI Journals Hello, If there are any OSI afficionados out there, I just had a bunch of old PEEK(65), Aardvark, and OSI small system journals scanned into PDFs, and as I don't have space for the originals, I'm curious if somebody wants these. They occupy one document storage box. Most of the journals were punched with a 3-hole punch by prior owners, so they're ready to store in 3-ring binders. Also, I have a light-blue OSI 3-ring binder which I got with my OS-65D documentation way back when. I have the docs on my bookshelf, but the binder takes up too much space, so if someone wants it for their docs, let me know. Finally, I have an 8" disk copy of a programming language for OSI called "Beta 65", but no docs. If want it, let me know. All the best, Dave ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:16:58 AM Subject: Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin > >The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had to do with anything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 22 11:53:04 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:53:04 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Mandrakeot] Hey Gene - Amiga stuff] Message-ID: <4B310780.6070100@sbcglobal.net> FYI, for the Amiga developers around here.... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Mandrakeot] Hey Gene - Amiga stuff Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:54:21 -0500 From: Ric Moore Reply-To: mandrakeot at mdw1982.com To: mandrakeot at mdw1982.com http://feeds.arstechnica.com/~r/arstechnica/open-source/~3/KX0p_xQ7x7g/know-anyone-who-worked-as-game-dev-for-the-commodore-amiga.ars Thought you'd get a kick outa this one. Ric -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Dec 22 12:17:03 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:17:03 +0000 Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>> In hindsight, could the DEC-20 or RISC version of it >>> had marketing and other bad luck changed ,and >>> today replaced the PC in many applications? >> >> Six bit based architectures all died with the rise of the IBM S/360 >> family. DEC, CDC, Univac. >> >> It also did not help that many of these old line mainframe >> architectures were getting hard to extend. For the DEC 36 bitters - >> what does one do after the 18 bit address pointer, with two neatly >> stuffed into a 36 bit word? A kludge. What does one do after the 36 >> bit address pointer? A worse kludge. > > I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 bit > machine? > If you mean physically large, then yes. However on the 1301, addresses range only from 0 to 3999 (decimal). Probably not what you meant really. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 22 13:18:00 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:18:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449792.67870.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From: Roger Holmes To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 12:17:03 PM Subject: Re: Happy DEC-20 Day! >> I kind of suspected that was the case. Did anyone make a large 48 bit >> machine? >> >If you mean physically large, then yes. However on the 1301, addresses range only from 0 to 3999 (decimal). >Probably not what you meant really. lol From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 22 14:24:05 2009 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSI Journals In-Reply-To: <0685A60E-EA87-4285-B82C-9F8AC0A10ABD@rachors.com> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> <4B1C54CE.1020908@hachti.de> <561947.401.qm@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0685A60E-EA87-4285-B82C-9F8AC0A10ABD@rachors.com> Message-ID: <130239.50340.qm@web38106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ________________________________ The PDF's are not yet fully indexed, but I've placed them on my OSI archive: http://osiweb.org. In the Journals page, Peek 65 section, I have a link to the directory of un-indexed PDFs. They are names by volume, number, and date. Of course, feel free to leave a note in the forums section, and if you have any material to contribute, I'd be more than pleased. Regards, Dave George Rachor wrote: > I also don't really have room for this but wouldn't mind the pdf's... > Best Regards, > George Rachor On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Dave wrote: > Hello, > > If there are any OSI afficionados out there, I just had a bunch of old PEEK(65), Aardvark, and OSI small system journals scanned into PDFs, and as I don't have space for the originals, I'm curious if somebody wants these. They occupy one document storage box. Most of the journals were punched with a 3-hole punch by prior owners, so they're ready to store in 3-ring binders. > > Also, I have a light-blue OSI 3-ring binder which I got with my OS-65D documentation way back when. I have the docs on my bookshelf, but the binder takes up too much space, so if someone wants it for their docs, let me know. > > Finally, I have an 8" disk copy of a programming language for OSI called "Beta 65", but no docs. If want it, let me know. > > All the best, > > Dave > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Zane H. Healy > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:16:58 AM > Subject: Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) > > At 10:08 PM -0800 12/6/09, David Griffith wrote: >> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> >>> http://www.myspace.com/kennyirwin >> >> The disease known as Timecube appears to be spreading. > > Timecube? I was trying to figure out earlier what on earth this had > to do with anything. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 22 15:25:00 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:25:00 -0500 Subject: Anyone happen to have one of these chips? Message-ID: <810E8E0EBD83414EBE8AA2F10E6AB749@dell8300> DM74LS 244WM Octal tri-state buffers/line drivers/line receivers 20 pin chip, surface mount. I need one for an 8 bit ISA SCSI card so the ROM I installed works. Looking over my junk boards I dont see any I can snag. If you have one let me know. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 15:30:32 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:30:32 -0200 Subject: Anyone happen to have one of these chips? References: <810E8E0EBD83414EBE8AA2F10E6AB749@dell8300> Message-ID: <164701ca834e$2338e760$0301a8c0@Alexandre> DM74LS 244WM Octal tri-state buffers/line drivers/line receivers 20 pin chip, surface mount. I need one for an 8 bit ISA SCSI card so the ROM I installed works. Looking over my junk boards I dont see any I can snag. If you have one let me know. =========== You can have it for cents on digikey, jameco, mouser...This is a very common 74LS244... From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Dec 22 16:01:49 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:01:49 -0500 Subject: Anyone happen to have one of these chips? In-Reply-To: <164701ca834e$2338e760$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <810E8E0EBD83414EBE8AA2F10E6AB749@dell8300> <164701ca834e$2338e760$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B3141CD.3030902@verizon.net> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > DM74LS 244WM > Octal tri-state buffers/line drivers/line receivers > 20 pin chip, surface mount. > I need one for an 8 bit ISA SCSI card so the ROM I installed works. > Looking over my junk boards I dont see any I can snag. > If you have one let me know. > =========== > > You can have it for cents on digikey, jameco, mouser...This is a very > common 74LS244... http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=296-1213-5-ND should do the trick. Surface mount, 20 pin, SOIC. $0.96 each, min quantity, 1. data sheet http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls241.pdf (includes 244 data) Keith From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 22 16:28:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:28:35 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2009 at 10:36, Ray Arachelian wrote: > So, what is this thing you're trying to build? You've got my > curiosity up. :-) There's a ton of old CNC equipment out there--not just machine tools, but other things such as embroidery machines. All are your basic gray iron casting with a computer attached. Many have been adapted to make use of floppy disks instead of punched paper tape. One aspect is that there is a plethora of differing formats out there, not to mention filesystems. The problem is that floppies are getting harder to deal with. I was surprised to find that the local computer reuse/recycler will no longer accept diskettes--not even if they are new and in unopened original packaging. Seems that they've gone from obsolescent to obsolete. So other people who own the very expensive pieces of equipment are wondering what's next after floppies. I'm trying to come up with a convincing solution. The technical solution is fairly straightforward, thanks to modern microcontroller technology, but there are practical decisions to be made. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Dec 22 20:41:49 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:41:49 -0500 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> <4B303112.1000606@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20091221_213955_014849_ECCCACB6) Message-ID: <4B31836D.3060909@compsys.to> >Brad Parker wrote: > >On Dec 21, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >On 12/21/09 5:35 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> I have about 100,000 lines of code in over 3 dozen PDF files that were >>> scanned from the hard copy listings. Unfortunately, the original >>> text source >>> files were lost, so the PDF files are a last resort. Other than >>> typing in the >>> code by hand from the PDF file, are there any good freeware programs >>> to convert a PDF back to a text file? >> >> sounds like the TSX-Plus listings I scanned for Lyle. > > I spent a little time playing with ocropus and then teseract, trying > to scan > pdp-11 diags back to text. I didn't have good luck. I'd be > interested if others > have a working formula. > > I did have a little fun "training" tereract on the line printer > font. I think that > technique holds promise but it needed more data to do a good job (my > initial sample > was too small, but did improve things a lot). > > just curious if anyone else has tried training one of the ocr > programs to read > line printer fonts. Al Kossow is CORRECT!!!!!!!!!! Look for /pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus/listings/6.40/ at bitsavers. That was a GREAT job Al. THANK YOU! The original text files were lost. ALL of the PDF files are text! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Dec 22 20:42:03 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:42:03 -0500 Subject: PDF to Text Conversion (Was: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?) In-Reply-To: <4B30EA7F.9050806@verizon.net> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B302261.8010201@compsys.to> <4B303112.1000606@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20091221_213955_014849_ECCCACB6) <4B30EA7F.9050806@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B31837B.5000804@compsys.to> >Keith M wrote: > >Brad Parker wrote: > >> I did have a little fun "training" tereract on the line printer >> font. I think that >> technique holds promise but it needed more data to do a good job (my >> initial sample >> was too small, but did improve things a lot). >> >> just curious if anyone else has tried training one of the ocr >> programs to read >> line printer fonts. > > Can someone send me an example of the PDF? I can always run a page or > two through abbyy and see what happens. Al Kossow is CORRECT!!!!!!!!!! Look for /pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus/listings/6.40/ at bitsavers. That was a GREAT job Al. THANK YOU! The original text files were lost. ALL of the PDF files are text! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 20:58:23 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:58:23 -0500 Subject: DECmemory Message-ID: What machine does the DEC 54-21139 SIMM go with? VAXstation or Alpha? I have quite a pile - available cheap! -- Will From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Dec 22 21:30:37 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:30:37 -0500 Subject: DECmemory Message-ID: <20091223033037.653C8BA5419@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Will writes: > What machine does the DEC 54-21139 SIMM go with? VAXstation or Alpha? > I have quite a pile - available cheap! It goes in at least some of the DEC 3000 Alphastations. Which themselves could use commodity PC-clone memory with parity (at least for the 8MB SIMM's, there's some special sensing resistor in the DEC 32MB SIMM's) so they would probably work in anything needing 8MB Parity SIMMs. Geeze, I haven't thought about DEC 3000 memory in a decade. IIRC the Alphastations shipped with 8MB SIMM's and these often were pulled and replaced with 32MB SIMM's. Tim. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 23 00:30:00 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:30:00 -0600 Subject: Opening 20 year old software on it's anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B31B8E8.9090004@oldskool.org> Robert Borsuk wrote: > So about a month ago I purchased some Wang branded MSDOS software off of eBay. Much to my delight, when it arrived, it was still factory sealed. I showed my wife the date of manufacture on the label and she suggested I wait to open it. I reluctantly agreed to wait. So it's been about a month and today is the day. Please enjoy some pictures of the moment. > > http://gallery.me.com/irisworld/100109 Nice. I really miss that style of art/illustration. I tried to explain what the predominant "modern" art style of the 1980s was to a friend and tried to explain it as a combination of op-art, Memphis Furniture, and Nagel's clean poster lines, influenced a bit by punk and new wave music wardrobes. Then and right now, I couldn't seem to do it justice. If anyone has an art background, I'd love to try to get a handle on what that kind of art style was called. To keep this OT, and to hopefully try to explain what I'm trying to say, here are more examples of this kind of style in the software (and its packaging) of the time: http://www.mobygames.com/game/tass-times-in-tonetown/cover-art/gameCoverId,61/ http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/california-games/screenshots/gameShotId,41063/ http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc-booter/tass-times-in-tonetown/cover-art/gameCoverId,99/ http://www.mobygames.com/game/alter-ego/cover-art/gameCoverId,6759/ And from a firm that did software package design during that era: http://www.woodswoods.com/images/identity/jump.jpg -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 23 03:39:31 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:39:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Anyone happen to have one of these chips? In-Reply-To: <4B3141CD.3030902@verizon.net> References: <810E8E0EBD83414EBE8AA2F10E6AB749@dell8300> <164701ca834e$2338e760$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B3141CD.3030902@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Keith M wrote: > > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=296-1213-5-ND > > should do the trick. > > Surface mount, 20 pin, SOIC. > > $0.96 each, min quantity, 1. Overpriced... this part costs only around $0.50 here (0.35 EUR) ;-) Christian From spedraja at ono.com Wed Dec 23 07:40:57 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:40:57 +0100 Subject: Searching for some Systems Analysis Documents Message-ID: Hello. I am searching for these documents or books related with Systems Analysis: * Study Organization Plan, IBM, (Form C20-8075), 1961 * Time Automated Grid System, IBM, (Form GY 20-0358), 1971 * A Study Guide for Accurately Defined Systems, NCR, 1968 Regards Sergio From ray at arachelian.com Wed Dec 23 08:50:27 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:50:27 -0500 (est) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Dec 2009 at 10:36, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> So, what is this thing you're trying to build? You've got my >> curiosity up. :-) > > There's a ton of old CNC equipment out there--not just machine tools, > but other things such as embroidery machines. All are your basic > gray iron casting with a computer attached. Many have been adapted > to make use of floppy disks instead of punched paper tape. One > aspect is that there is a plethora of differing formats out there, > not to mention filesystems. Neat! I remember using one of these, with paper tape back in high school. Was a drill that behaved as a plotter and we gave it commands like drill up, drill down, move up, move left, move right, move down, could even do diagonals together. > The problem is that floppies are getting harder to deal with. I was > surprised to find that the local computer reuse/recycler will no > longer accept diskettes--not even if they are new and in unopened > original packaging. Seems that they've gone from obsolescent to > obsolete. Just a couple of years ago, I was able to find floppies... time flies. :( > So other people who own the very expensive pieces of equipment are > wondering what's next after floppies. > > I'm trying to come up with a convincing solution. The technical > solution is fairly straightforward, thanks to modern microcontroller > technology, but there are practical decisions to be made. I'm a bit suprised that floppies were used, I imagine that this would be a harsh environment for floppies, so as long as static electricity isn't too much of an issue, most kinds of flash storage should work just fine. I wonder if there's another possibility though, how about a network interface? If you can get an ethernet interface, anything with an RJ45 plug will do, even 10mbps, and set up some way to transfer the instructions, say over tftp or ftp, you'd have removed the obsolecense factor by quite a bit. That way you can use almost any machine to store the instructions and could build a nice menu system that lets the end user pick the file to send to the machine, as well as which machine to send it to. Add some sort of backup system to this machine, and you're all set. If the machine runs some sort of live CD and stores its data on flash and has a way to clone itself, you don't need to worry about backups. Keep the code to something scriptable (i.e. python, perl, bash, ksh), and it can run on future platforms as well without too much hassle. It doesn't have to be anything too fancy or modern, anything capable of booting off a CD and has USB ports, that you can get Linux or FreeBSD to run on should work nicely. You'd have to modify the startup scripts to run the menu software, and read the configs from flash, and possibly automatically back up changes to a 2nd flash drive. If you get a bit more modern, you can have the whole thing on a thumb drive and have it actively look for other thumb drives inserted, if it sees them, it can clone itself over to the other drive. Add in some sort of self checking MD5 hash to check itself to make sure there's no file system errors on the config files, menu system, and saved programs, and you're set. A bit of work, but it can be quite robust. (Just don't limit the thing to checking for actual flash drives, but rather anything removeable that can be written to, and it can be compatible with whatever replaces USB thumb drives in the future, so long as the boot OS is replaced along with it.) From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 23 09:15:57 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:15:57 -0800 Subject: CNC/NC (Was HP91XX Controllers) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Most all CNC controls today have Ethernet interfaces, and have means (FTP or CIFS access to files on a fileserver share) to copy programs to the control. Many controls nowadays also have USB ports, so you can put program(s) on thumb drives and copy them onto the control that way. Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. I wrote a system on a PC running FreeBSD Linux using Perl (a very early version) that would send and receive programs to all of the controls in the shop over RS-232. I used a SCSI terminal server box from Central Data that hooked up to the PC over a SCSI channel, and provided 16 RS-232 serial ports that went out to all of the machines. Amazingly enough, this thing is still in service (in a shop environment) after over 15 years, providing an easy way to load programs on some of the older controls. I remember the first "NC" machine (no computer inside, so it wasn't CNC) that my Dad's shop had. It was a Rambaudi Vertical Mill. The control was made by Wang Laboratories. It used paper tape, in EIA code. A Friden Flexowriter was used to prepare tapes. The X, Y and Z motors weren't steppers, they were servos with resolvers attached to make a closed loop system, a very curious mix of analog and digital. The control was all transistorized...no ICs. For a project for school, my Dad gave me blueprints for a part that they had been contracted to make, and I wrote the program (very simple drilling/tapping on a flat block of steel) to make the part. It worked first time. I think I was in 5th or 6th grade, can't remember for sure). I remember one machine, it was a lathe, that had a control that had an industrial PDP 8/e in it, with blinky lights and switches (red and blue). I was really upset with my Dad when the machine was taken out of the commission (it simply wore out and wasn't worth repairing), and they called a scrapper to come get it, control and all. It is truly amazing how far machining technology has come in a relatively short time. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 09:36:40 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:36:40 -0500 Subject: CNC/NC (Was HP91XX Controllers) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B323908.4070203@gmail.com> Rick Bensene wrote: > Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. I wrote a system on a PC running > FreeBSD Linux using Perl (a very early version) that would send and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ??? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 23 09:41:02 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:41:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: CNC/NC (Was HP91XX Controllers) In-Reply-To: <4B323908.4070203@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Dec 23, 9 10:36:40 am" Message-ID: <200912231541.nBNFf2qG012654@floodgap.com> > > Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. I wrote a system on a PC running > > FreeBSD Linux using Perl (a very early version) that would send and > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ??? See, Richard Stallman and Bill Joy got really drunk one night, and ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TV is chewing gum for the eyes. -- Frank Lloyd Wright ---------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 09:55:32 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:55:32 -0500 Subject: CNC/NC (Was HP91XX Controllers) In-Reply-To: <200912231541.nBNFf2qG012654@floodgap.com> References: <200912231541.nBNFf2qG012654@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B323D74.9040600@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. I wrote a system on a PC running >>> FreeBSD Linux using Perl (a very early version) that would send and >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> ??? > > See, Richard Stallman and Bill Joy got really drunk one night, and ... You, sir, are a sick puppy. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ray at arachelian.com Wed Dec 23 10:28:23 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:28:23 -0500 (est) Subject: CNC/NC (Was HP91XX Controllers) In-Reply-To: <4B323908.4070203@gmail.com> References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B2F3B10.29871.B8C3C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com> <4B323908.4070203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Dec 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Rick Bensene wrote: >> Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. I wrote a system on a PC running >> FreeBSD Linux using Perl (a very early version) that would send and > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ or > ??? > > Peace... Sridhar > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 23 10:43:46 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:43:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: for the Gopher nerds in the audience Message-ID: <200912231643.nBNGhkA7016776@floodgap.com> A successful build of GopherVR on Mac OS X: http://www.floodgap.com/iv/632 As you can see, this is the famous unfinished "virtual reality" gopher client. And it really works! I just wanted to share the joy. It doesn't do much more than this, and required some unholy hacking to get it this far, but I'm hoping to release source soon. For those who want to play with GopherVR on classic Mac OS now, you can get it from gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/gopher/clients/mac/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them? -- Justice Gustine -------- From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Dec 23 12:26:51 2009 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:26:51 -0800 Subject: Burroughs B5500 and successors (Was: Happy DEC-20 Day!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3260EB.4050103@snowmoose.com> > > From: "Jonas Otter" > The architecture has so-called display registers, each of which pointed > to a stack frame for a lexicographical level in the code, i.e. the > procedure call level. Data is addressed as an address couple consisting > of a display register number and an offset, stored in a so-called > Indirect Reference Word (IRW). Data outside of the stack can be > addressed by means of descriptors. Data in another program's stack is > addressed by means of Stuffed Indirect Reference Words (SIRW), which > include a stack number and an offset. The operating system keeps track > of individual program stacks by means of a tree of pointers to job > stacks. Also, to keep track of the procedure calling and return linkage, > Mark Stack Control Words (MSCW) are created whenever a procedure is > called. The Display Registers point to the MSCWs. > Yes, that all sounds familiar. Do you recall the sizes? > All this is designed to support block-structured high level languages, in > fact all the operating system software is (was) written in various ALGOL > dialects. > My favorite dialect was NEWP. I particularly liked the UNSAFE directive. I worked for Burroughs from just before the name change to Unisys (summer '86) to spring '89, my first job out of college. I worked on A Series, V Series, B1000, BTOS and DOS stuff while I was there. At school, I used BSD Unix on VAX and DEC-20, so the Burroughs stuff was really different (from stack machines to two-wire direct, poll/select terminals) and fun to play with and learn. alan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 23 14:15:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:15:47 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation programavailable) In-Reply-To: References: <20091220020813.52F28BA5451@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B30D793.29248.139FBD2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B3209F3.10600.A56CF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Dec 2009 at 9:50, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I wonder if there's another possibility though, how about a network > interface? If you can get an ethernet interface, anything with an > RJ45 plug will do, even 10mbps, and set up some way to transfer the > instructions, say over tftp or ftp, you'd have removed the obsolecense > factor by quite a bit. I've thought about it some and am thinking about using a Vinculum coupled to a microprocessor to provide a USB host interface to a variety of devices. So if one wants to use a traditional USB floppy drive or a flash drive, accomodating it should be easy, as most of the "smarts" are in the Vinculum firmware. There's even a second "USB slave to PC host" connector for direct PC connection. I think a lot of vintage collectors don't realize that there is a lot of vintage gear in CNC controllers. I recall seeing a vacuum-forming rig powered by an Imsai 8080, for example. The Excellon CNC-6 that I inquired about has a Multibus card cage in it with a Z8002 CPU card and a disk controller (WD1793 and 8085 CPU) made by Advanced Micro Computers, the ill-starred joint venture between AMD and Siemens back around 1980. I doubt that few of these have survived outside of the CNC arena, but supposedly there are still about 2,000 of the CNC-6 boxes still in the field. Excellon reports that there are far more of the CNC-6's in use than the PC- based CNC-7. Somewhere, I have an inquiry from a customer with a Mitsubishi CNC rig that used the CPU board and OS from the Mitsubishi Multi-16. Many Japanese CNC setups are based on the NEC PC9801 architecture. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 15:01:43 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:01:43 -0500 Subject: IBM 9375 Message-ID: Curious - did someone here win that nice IBM 9375 on Ebay? I doubt it was a scrapper - the hammer price is too high. -- Will From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Dec 23 16:35:41 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:35:41 +0000 Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CB6051C-B059-45D6-B97B-5AA10E7892AE@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Rick Bensene" > > Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. I wrote a system on a PC running > FreeBSD Linux using Perl (a very early version) that would send and > receive programs to all of the controls in the shop over RS-232. I used > a SCSI terminal server box from Central Data that hooked up to the PC > over a SCSI channel, and provided 16 RS-232 serial ports that went out > to all of the machines. Amazingly enough, this thing is still in > service (in a shop environment) after over 15 years, providing an easy > way to load programs on some of the older controls. I wrote a similar program in 1979 to do a similar job with an Apple ][ europlus (to a Bridgeport Series 1). It was written in my own high level assembler (for the 6502) and worked with only one machine at a time and included Apple's word processor integrated in (by disassembly, converting to high level and inclusion in the source with suitable links) and we sold a normal version with it with permission from Apple.We also had a program which emulated a vertical mill and drew the programmed path on screen or on a pen plotter. I know they were in use about 20 years later but probably all dead by now. We also did a version which allowed operators to program a Heidenheim 131 or 145(?) controller on the Apple 2 without tying up the real machine which cost about 30 times as much as an Apple 2. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 17:08:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:08:35 -0500 Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: <6CB6051C-B059-45D6-B97B-5AA10E7892AE@microspot.co.uk> References: <6CB6051C-B059-45D6-B97B-5AA10E7892AE@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > I wrote a similar program in 1979 to do a similar job with an Apple ][ europlus (to a Bridgeport Series 1). Oddly enough, one of my side projects is tracking down a problem with the original controls for a Bridgeport Series 2. One of the control cabinets got packed with sawdust from an adjacent woodshop, so it appears to be power-supply related (all the motor driver and pre-amp boards check out, but only X moves; Y and Z make noise but are stationary). I was really shocked (and pleased) to go through the manuals and find that at the core of this, there's a genuine DEC quad-height LSI-11 (11/03) processor card. -ethan From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 23 19:50:37 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:50:37 -0800 Subject: IBM RT-PC available: Going once.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Damn, I wish I was nearby. A plane ticket puts it out of my price range. I'll check a map to see if anyone in the vicinity owes me a favor. Eric From jonas at otter.se Wed Dec 23 02:16:04 2009 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:16:04 +0000 Subject: Burroughs B5500 and successors (Was: Happy DEC-20 Day!) Message-ID: <130nsgi8.1261556164.1977290.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Alan Perry wrote: > > This also included the Burroughs/Unisys A-series systems that were > made into the early 90s. > > The A-series systems used a 52-bit, tagged word. 1 bit of parity, 3 > bits of tag and 48 bits of data. > > I don't recall how the addressing worked and Al has my papers on the > architecture, so I can't look it up ... The A-series were direct successors to the B5000/6000/7000 series and used the same architecture. Unisys still sells the ClearPath MCP systems, now using Intel processors and running the MCP operating system (under emulation I think). The architecture has so-called display registers, each of which pointed to a stack frame for a lexicographical level in the code, i.e. the procedure call level. Data is addressed as an address couple consisting of a display register number and an offset, stored in a so-called Indirect Reference Word (IRW). Data outside of the stack can be addressed by means of descriptors. Data in another program's stack is addressed by means of Stuffed Indirect Reference Words (SIRW), which include a stack number and an offset. The operating system keeps track of individual program stacks by means of a tree of pointers to job stacks. Also, to keep track of the procedure calling and return linkage, Mark Stack Control Words (MSCW) are created whenever a procedure is called. The Display Registers point to the MSCWs. All this is designed to support block-structured high level languages, in fact all the operating system software is (was) written in various ALGOL dialects. There is quite a lot of information about this on the net. A book which describes it is Computer Systems Organization by Elliott Organick (ACM Monograph Series, 1973. LCN: 72-88334). -Jonas From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 23 17:05:48 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:05:48 -0800 Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: <6CB6051C-B059-45D6-B97B-5AA10E7892AE@microspot.co.uk> References: <6CB6051C-B059-45D6-B97B-5AA10E7892AE@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B32A24C.7030000@jwsss.com> One of my medium computer literate friends had rigged up a system using a single serial port and a switch box to his shop. But all of his code was commercial. Autocad with addons at the top of the food chain, and several support translator programs added on. Costs a fortune for software but he did a lot with a little in terms of having to get custom hardware rigs, or his own programming. He made more money programming in CNC language (which he could do by hand) to pay for the high software costs. I guess programming a PC to multiply the return is a good way to go too. I have been looking at Acramatic controls because they are Microdata 1600 based (900 series) but not much else. The ones I'd like to get hold of of that type would not need a machine attached, since I have other firmware to run on them. Jim Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: "Rick Bensene" >> >> > > >> Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. From arlin at gdca.com Wed Dec 23 18:00:29 2009 From: arlin at gdca.com (Arlin Niernberger) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:00:29 -0800 Subject: DDC BUS-65517 1553 card Message-ID: Do you have any BUS-65517 cards. I have a system that I need some spares on. Arlin 925-784-4642 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 24 02:08:12 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 09:08:12 +0100 Subject: DECmemory In-Reply-To: <20091223033037.653C8BA5419@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20091223033037.653C8BA5419@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20091224090812.f455c70a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:30:37 -0500 shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > What machine does the DEC 54-21139 SIMM go with? VAXstation or Alpha? > > I have quite a pile - available cheap! > > It goes in at least some of the DEC 3000 Alphastations. Which themselves > could use commodity PC-clone memory with parity The smaler DEC3000-300 machines can use PeeCeeish PS/2 memory. The larger DEC3000-[456789]00 need very special DEC SIMMs with much more pins than PS/2 SIMMs. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 24 07:51:24 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:51:24 -0500 Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: <4B32A24C.7030000@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <723356.78129.qm@smtp105.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> My task for the new year is to bring the Autocode NC/CNC product forward to Autocad 2010. It has turned out that as the last man standing with Source, I am now the last custodian of the code. Which translator is your friend using ? The other Bob On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:05:48 -0800, jim s wrote: >One of my medium computer literate friends had rigged up a system using >a single serial port and a switch box to his shop. But all of his code >was commercial. Autocad with addons at the top of the food chain, and >several support translator programs added on. >Costs a fortune for software but he did a lot with a little in terms of >having to get custom hardware rigs, or his own programming. He made >more money programming in CNC language (which he could do by hand) to >pay for the high software costs. I guess programming a PC to multiply >the return is a good way to go too. >I have been looking at Acramatic controls because they are Microdata >1600 based (900 series) but not much else. The ones I'd like to get >hold of of that type would not need a machine attached, since I have >other firmware to run on them. >Jim >Roger Holmes wrote: >>> From: "Rick Bensene" >>> >>> >> >> >>> Earlier controls had RS-232 ports. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 24 10:19:50 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: <723356.78129.qm@smtp105.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <723356.78129.qm@smtp105.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > My task for the new year is to bring the Autocode NC/CNC product forward > to Autocad 2010. It has turned out that as the last man standing with > Source, I am now the last custodian of the code. > Any idea what you'll end up charging for it? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Thu Dec 24 15:19:24 2009 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:19:24 -0700 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) Message-ID: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> G'day DG legacy preservation fans - After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement with Data General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit and some 32-bit software for educational and non-commercial purposes. A official announcement will be made next month, but I wanted to let list members know that sometimes good things can happen. A special thanks is extended to the amazing William Donzelli, and to the quick-footed Carl Friend, who made the physical tape rescue in Massachusetts possible. Thanks also to the legal and technical folk at EMC (Data General) who finally made this a legal reality - and who might prefer annonymity at this point. Details will be posted in a few weeks, but I wanted to share this bit of Merry Christmas for DG fans. Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Fri Dec 25 01:07:00 2009 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 00:07:00 -0700 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) Message-ID: <002c01ca8530$dc983f10$139dfd4b@linksys> Data General legacy preservation fans - After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement with Data General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit and some 32-bit software for educational and non-commercial purposes. A official announcement will be made next month, but I wanted to let list members know that sometimes good things can happen. A special thanks is extended to the amazing William Donzelli, and to the quick-footed Carl Friend, who made the physical tape rescue in Massachusetts possible. Thanks also to the legal and technical folk at EMC (Data General) who finally made this a legal reality - and who might prefer annonymity at this point. Details will be posted in a few weeks, but I wanted to share this bit of Merry Christmas for DG fans. Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 25 04:34:59 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:34:59 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. Message-ID: Does anyone have a stash of them? I have one fo them and it is getting old burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning different code into it, lather ? rinse ? repeat. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Dec 25 04:43:21 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:13:21 +1030 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200912252113.21559.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:04:59 pm Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Does anyone have a stash of them? I have one fo them and it is getting old > burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning different code into > it, lather ? rinse ? repeat. > Perhaps you could use an EEPROM? I use them for just about everything because I don't have an eraser. If pins compatibility is an issue, you can put the EEPROM into two machine sockets stacked on top of each other, then break off the pins from the middle socket and route wires to where they should go. Alexis. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 07:16:53 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 05:16:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4334.96267.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 12/25/09, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Does anyone have a stash of > them?? I have one fo them and it is getting old > burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning > different code into > it, lather ? rinse ? repeat. This guy does: www.epromman.com -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 25 09:08:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:08:36 -0500 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6641E0AD-9EA0-43D5-964C-C135D59B0A08@neurotica.com> On Dec 25, 2009, at 5:34 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Does anyone have a stash of them? I have one fo them and it is > getting old > burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning different > code into > it, lather ? rinse ? repeat. I have some. Send me your shipping address if you still need them. And, Merry Christmas! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 25 10:16:34 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:16:34 -0800 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) In-Reply-To: <002c01ca8530$dc983f10$139dfd4b@linksys> References: <002c01ca8530$dc983f10$139dfd4b@linksys> Message-ID: <4B34E562.2060601@bitsavers.org> On 12/24/09 11:07 PM, Bruce Ray wrote: > Data General legacy preservation fans - > > After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement with > Data > General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit and some 32-bit > software for educational and non-commercial purposes. A official > How is the actual data recovery going? From jthecman at netscape.net Fri Dec 25 10:51:38 2009 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:51:38 -0500 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) In-Reply-To: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> References: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> Message-ID: <8CC5399A8ED2CE1-4610-42B8F@webmail-d048.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Ray To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Thu, Dec 24, 2009 3:19 pm Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) G'day DG legacy preservation fans -? ? After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement with Data General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit and some 32-bit software for educational and non-commercial purposes. A official announcement will be made next month, but I wanted to let list members know that sometimes good things can happen.? ? A special thanks is extended to the amazing William Donzelli, and to the quick-footed Carl Friend, who made the physical tape rescue in Massachusetts possible. Thanks also to the legal and technical folk at EMC (Data General) who finally made this a legal reality - and who might prefer annonymity at this point.? ? Details will be posted in a few weeks, but I wanted to share this bit of Merry Christmas for DG fans.? ? ? Bruce? ? Bruce Ray? Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc.? bkr at WildHareComputers.com? ? ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com? ? That's really great news and we will be on the lookout for DG items here the Houston area to share with your effort. Thanks for your hard work. John Keys Houston Computer Museum From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Dec 25 11:39:05 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 17:39:05 +0000 Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50FCB88E-F8AB-468B-A0B6-6A1C98BE38F5@microspot.co.uk> > From: Ethan Dicks > > wrote: >> I wrote a similar program in 1979 to do a similar job with an Apple ][ europlus (to a Bridgeport Series 1). > > Oddly enough, one of my side projects is tracking down a problem with > the original controls for a Bridgeport Series 2. One of the control > cabinets got packed with sawdust from an adjacent woodshop, so it > appears to be power-supply related (all the motor driver and pre-amp > boards check out, but only X moves; Y and Z make noise but are > stationary). If I remember right the series 2 used stepper motors. One set of coils faulty? But on Y and Z seems strange. Maybe there's something in common for the coils of both axes. Rather less likely but the (woodruff?) drive keys could have sheared, but again on both axes at once seems unlikely. Do the motors turn or just go a tiny bit backward and forwards? Of course its possible one of the axes could have failed earlier and the machine used for simpler jobs. I once made a CNC program (prepared on the Apple 2) to machine elliptical valves (upside down poppet valves) and the program only used X and Y axes. Similar jobs must exist. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 12:16:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:16:39 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B349107.32369.1B606C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2009 at 2:34, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Does anyone have a stash of them? I have one fo them and it is > getting old burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning > different code into it, lather ? rinse ? repeat. Futurlec has them (2732, 32A and C32) as well as the 16's: http://www.futurlec.com/ICEPROM.shtml I've been dealing with Futurlec for years and find their service fairly prompt and their communication very good, even if they are in Thailand. --Chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Fri Dec 25 12:41:02 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:41:02 -0500 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) Message-ID: <20091225184102.C0FD9BA519C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Bruce, My contribution, tapes I recovered and imaged in the mid-90's: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/dg1.zip http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/dg2.zip Good luck with the big project! Tim. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Dec 25 13:12:42 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:12:42 -0500 Subject: 1Mx4 DRAM DIPs Message-ID: <4B350EAA.8000508@verizon.net> Hi, This is my annual 1Mx4 DRAM memory chip post. I'm looking for some old DRAM memory chips with the following specs: 20-pin DIP memory chips (16) 1meg x 4-bit dips make up a bank of 8mb. Should be 60-ns Fast Page Mode non-parity An example would be Toshiba TC514400AP-60. Other manufacturers might use the following base part numbers: Fujitsu MB : 814400 Goldstar GM : 71C4400 Hitachi HM : 514400 Hyundai HY : 514400 Micron MT : 4C4001 Mitsubishi M5M: 44400 I have some in surface mount (in a goofy 26/20 format), but without small PCBs to convert, they aren't much use. There are some out there in SOJ, also not useful. Yes, I know some old video cards might have them, and yes, I know the Epson ActionLaser 1500's have them. I haven't found a single source in a couple years. There are some companies, like usbid.com, that have them. All of these companies have $250-$500 minimum purchases, and I really don't need that many of them. Or want to pay that much. The form factor is important, but if I can only get EDO and 80ns, I'll take those too. :) Thanks and Merry Christmas. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 14:16:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:16:33 -0800 Subject: 1Mx4 DRAM DIPs In-Reply-To: <4B350EAA.8000508@verizon.net> References: <4B350EAA.8000508@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B34AD21.28383.8926A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2009 at 14:12, Keith Monahan wrote: ...1Mx4 DIPs... There are adapters out there that allow you to mount an SOJ chip on a DIP plugboard. Judging from the number of requests and lack of responses on the various Amiga forums, I think that using an adapter may be the best route. Cheers, Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 25 15:30:15 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:30:15 -0800 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) In-Reply-To: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> References: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> Message-ID: Congratulations on a great accomplishment, Bruce! This is indeed a great Christmas gift for the vintage community -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Ray [bruce at Wild-Hare.com] Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 1:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) G'day DG legacy preservation fans - After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement with Data General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit and some 32-bit software for educational and non-commercial purposes. A official announcement will be made next month, but I wanted to let list members know that sometimes good things can happen. A special thanks is extended to the amazing William Donzelli, and to the quick-footed Carl Friend, who made the physical tape rescue in Massachusetts possible. Thanks also to the legal and technical folk at EMC (Data General) who finally made this a legal reality - and who might prefer annonymity at this point. Details will be posted in a few weeks, but I wanted to share this bit of Merry Christmas for DG fans. Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Dec 25 16:02:59 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 17:02:59 -0500 Subject: 1Mx4 DRAM DIPs In-Reply-To: <4B34AD21.28383.8926A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B350EAA.8000508@verizon.net> <4B34AD21.28383.8926A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B353693.8010908@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Dec 2009 at 14:12, Keith Monahan wrote: > > ...1Mx4 DIPs... > > There are adapters out there that allow you to mount an SOJ chip on a > DIP plugboard. Judging from the number of requests and lack of > responses on the various Amiga forums, I think that using an adapter > may be the best route. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Chuck, Yeah, I've seen those adapters. They are $5.00 each + shipping, plus require a bunch of soldering. Not to mention, the SOJ chips aren't really cheap. It could be $100-$200 job plus time for 8mb. I've searched just about everywhere, including the amiga forums, and I just can't believe how un-popular these chips must have been. The 256k x 4's in comparison are available everywhere. I have some surface mount chips, maybe PSOPs, already that some kind soul mailed me for free a year or so ago. I just found someone else with the knowledge to make these carrier boards (not hard if you know Eagle or the like) and we could likely get them cheaper if we buy a big pcb full of them. I already considered making my own board, and if something falls through, that's likely what I'll do. I would have to measure the surface mount chip because finding a datasheet for the chip has been particularly tough (and normally, I can find those types of things) I'm sure it conforms to some standard so it would only be a matter of time before I figured out which it was..... Obviously, and the reason for my post, is that if I could get the chips by themselves, it would likely save me time, trouble, and money. Thanks Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 17:05:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:05:39 -0800 Subject: 1Mx4 DRAM DIPs In-Reply-To: <4B353693.8010908@verizon.net> References: <4B350EAA.8000508@verizon.net>, <4B34AD21.28383.8926A8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B353693.8010908@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B34D4C3.11520.123F516@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2009 at 17:02, Keith wrote: > I've searched just about everywhere, including the amiga forums, and I > just can't believe how un-popular these chips must have been. The > 256k x 4's in comparison are available everywhere. I suspect it was a matter of timing--they arrived at about the same time that PCs were switching to SIMMs. I've got a couple of old 386 motherboards with both 1Mx1 DIP sockets and SIMM sockets. Later on, it was SIMMs or SIPPs only. --Chuck From jthecman at netscape.net Fri Dec 25 17:31:53 2009 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:31:53 -0500 Subject: Need Parts for DIGI-COMP1 Message-ID: <8CC53D193572C3C-4610-460A9@webmail-d048.sysops.aol.com> Happy Holidays to all I'am trying to restore a DIGI-COMP1 that I got off eBay awhile back and need the following items. It's missing 1-End Plate #2 (broken), 1-Clock Tube #16 or a way to make one, 3-Springs #17 and 1-Logic & Clock Rod #18. If anyone has these parts that want sale or give away please contact me off list. Thanks, John From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 19:03:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:03:03 -0600 Subject: Apple monitors Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912251703i697177f8t7bb55b870720a01e@mail.gmail.com> So it appears that not all apple monitors are created equal. I have a 17" apple monitor from a mac that I tried to attach to an Apple 2gs. They're all db-15, but this combo didn't work. Is it a frequency range thing? Is there an easy way to get this to work? The 9" 2gs monitor is a bit small. brian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 19:54:07 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 17:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple monitors In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912251703i697177f8t7bb55b870720a01e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731005.91729.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 12/25/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > So it appears that not all apple > monitors are created equal.? I have a > 17" apple monitor from a mac that I tried to attach to an > Apple 2gs. > They're all db-15, but this combo didn't work.? Is it > a frequency > range thing?? Is there an easy way to get this to > work?? The 9" 2gs > monitor is a bit small. Correct. Macintosh monitors are TOTALLY different from the Apple IIgs RGB monitor. The IIgs needs a 15.75khz RGB monitor - essentially NTSC rate - and isn't compatible with later monitors. Your best bet is the 12" RGB monitor that goes with the IIgs. Or, if you don't have one, an early NEC multisync (original, 2a, etc) will work, as will a Commodore Amiga monitor, or even an Atari ST monitor. Note that all non-Apple monitors will need a homemade cable to connect to the IIgs. Not only are the frequencies different on the IIgs and the Mac monitors, but the pinouts are different as well. You can also use a color or monochrome composite monitor, but the image will be a bit fuzzy - RGB is really your best bet. If you really need something bigger than the stock RGB monitor (say, for a presentation), an arcade machine monitor will also work - and those are available as 13", 19" and 25" fairly regularly. Note that you'll need to power an arcade monitor from an isolation transformer. Also note that a bigger monitor won't get you any advantage other than a huge picture - you can't do any better screen resolution than what it's doing right now. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 20:06:02 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:06:02 -0500 Subject: CNC/NC In-Reply-To: <50FCB88E-F8AB-468B-A0B6-6A1C98BE38F5@microspot.co.uk> References: <50FCB88E-F8AB-468B-A0B6-6A1C98BE38F5@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/25/09, Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks >> Oddly enough, one of my side projects is tracking down a problem with >> the original controls for a Bridgeport Series 2. One of the control >> cabinets got packed with sawdust from an adjacent woodshop, so it >> appears to be power-supply related (all the motor driver and pre-amp >> boards check out, but only X moves; Y and Z make noise but are >> stationary). > > If I remember right the series 2 used stepper motors. Yep. > One set of coils faulty? But on Y and Z seems strange. Nope. > Maybe there's something in common for > the coils of both axes. That is where I'm looking, but I'm new to the documentation, so I haven't found it yet. I expect it to be there - it's an experience/familiarity problem, not a documentation problem. > Rather less likely but the (woodruff?) drive keys > could have sheared, but again on both axes at once seems unlikely. Do the > motors turn or just go a tiny bit backward and forwards? They do not move, but the motors do give a large amount of resistance to manual turning (i.e., couldn't budge them by hand). > Of course its possible one of the axes could have failed earlier and the > machine used for simpler jobs. I don't think that's the case but I can't report that from personal experience. What I was told was that it worked perfectly until the sawdust/overheating incident. It's clear that neither Y nor Z move a micron now, and that's under direct manual control from the panel. One of the things we did do was to swap the X cable onto the Y stage. It moved perfectly. The Y cable wouldn't reach the X motor or we would have tried that. I am certain the Y motor is fine and the Y stage mechanics are fine, too. It's something further upstream than the stepper boards and the pre-amps since those have also been investigated and the problem does not move to the X axis under any board arrangement, and the Y and Z stage never work, no matter how the boards are arranged. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 20:08:38 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:08:38 -0600 Subject: Apple monitors In-Reply-To: <731005.91729.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380912251703i697177f8t7bb55b870720a01e@mail.gmail.com> <731005.91729.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912251808jfda5743v607012a91592936a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Correct. Macintosh monitors are TOTALLY different from the Apple IIgs RGB monitor. The IIgs needs a 15.75khz RGB monitor - essentially NTSC rate - and isn't compatible with later monitors. Your best bet is the 12" RGB monitor that goes with the IIgs. Or, if you don't have one, an early NEC multisync (original, 2a, etc) will work, as will a Commodore Amiga monitor, or even an Atari ST monitor. Note that all non-Apple monitors will need a homemade cable to connect to the IIgs. > > Not only are the frequencies different on the IIgs and the Mac monitors, but the pinouts are different as well. > > You can also use a color or monochrome composite monitor, but the image will be a bit fuzzy - RGB is really your best bet. If you really need something bigger than the stock RGB monitor (say, for a presentation), an arcade machine monitor will also work - and those are available as 13", 19" and 25" fairly regularly. Note that you'll need to power an arcade monitor from an isolation transformer. > > Also note that a bigger monitor won't get you any advantage other than a huge picture - you can't do any better screen resolution than what it's doing right now. I have the standard 2gs monitor. I was just hoping to get one that was a little bigger. There's a composite connection on the back. I have a 20" studio monitor I'm using for some of the amigas and a c64. I could plug it into that one I guess. brian From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Dec 25 22:10:04 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:10:04 -0600 Subject: Happy Newtonsday! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ...in deference to one of our treasured list members. And to others, Merry Christmas; and to all, a Happy New Year; may your capacitors all retain a low ESR and may the "good stuff" appear at the curbside of your path, decked with signs saying "take me"! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Dec 25 23:40:23 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:40:23 -0800 Subject: Happy Newtonsday! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ...and may the oxide stay on your tapes and away from your edge connectors. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tapley [mtapley at swri.edu] Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 8:10 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Happy Newtonsday! ...in deference to one of our treasured list members. And to others, Merry Christmas; and to all, a Happy New Year; may your capacitors all retain a low ESR and may the "good stuff" appear at the curbside of your path, decked with signs saying "take me"! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 13:03:06 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:03:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <4B349107.32369.1B606C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B349107.32369.1B606C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been dealing with Futurlec for years and find their service > fairly prompt and their communication very good, even if they are in > Thailand. Their web site shows a location at 1133 Broadway in NYC. Have budget issues forced Manhattan to relocate? :-) Steve -- From pinball at telus.net Fri Dec 25 14:58:07 2009 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:58:07 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <200912252113.21559.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <200912252113.21559.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <4B35275F.3080901@telus.net> Alexis wrote: > On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:04:59 pm Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Does anyone have a stash of them? I have one fo them and it is getting old >> burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning different code into >> it, lather ? rinse ? repeat. >> >> > > Perhaps you could use an EEPROM? I use them for just about everything because > I don't have an eraser. > > If pins compatibility is an issue, you can put the EEPROM into two machine > sockets stacked on top of each other, then break off the pins from the middle > socket and route wires to where they should go. > > Alexis. > > One of the Dallas devices (Maxim these days) would work well for you, Geoffrey - and most eprom programmers can erase and reprogram them - actually you just dump the fresh data in, it simply over-writes the old. Data retention of 10 years at a minimum, when you are happy with the code then burn to a 2732 (I have lots of them if you are near Vancouver, BC). http://para.maxim-ic.com/en/search.mvp?fam=memory&489=NV%20SRAM&232=Yes&tree=memory John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Dec 26 08:09:08 2009 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:09:08 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/34A acquistion and questions - Message-ID: <4FE4F863EB3A42489D0205FAD39669ED@obie> I recently rescued the following system: One full size (H960)rack cabinet containing (from the top down) - DEC PDP-11 crest Telebyte TDX 1/2" tape drive PDP-11/34A w/ full programmer's console Data Systems Design (DSD) 880-120 homebrew connector panel Wesperline I/O unit One "corporate highboy" cabinet (VAX style) RLO2 drive BA11-KE chassis non-racked items - 2nd RLO2 drive DSD twin floppy system, 110/430 additionally - 8 disk packs + "pack rack" several boxes of 8" floppies, including an install set for RT-11 V5.1c, configured by Cambridge Digital, dated 1984 card inventory (by chassis slot) - - 11/34A (chassis marked 11/34A XX) (1) M8266 control module (KD11-EA) (2) M8265 datapath module (KD11-EA) (3) M8267 floating point (FP-11A) (4) M7859 programmer cons (KY11-LB) (5) M8268 cache board (KK11-A) (6) M7801 data word cntrl (MC11) [I think I must have misread the card number and this is really M7891, 128KW MOS RAM, but I haven't yet verified that] (9)<->(11) M9202 backplane jumper (12)DSD 808830 controller for DSD 880-120 (13)DILOG DU130 tape controller (14)M7865) SLU+RTC (DL11-W) - BA-11-KE (3) M7860 parallel I/O (DR11-C) (5)&(6) MSP-3/A, MSP-3/C Computer Design Assoc. boards (8) M7762 RL02 disk controller (RL11) (9)<->(11) M9202 backplane jumper (12)&(13) MDP-3/M CDA boards (includes 4 AMD 2903 SuperSlice chips) Pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/pdp1134a ************************* The system was apparently used for data logging and analysis in a windtunnel application. Questions: 1) Can anyone provide more info on the Computer Design Associates board sets? Each of the board sets is comprised of two boards in adjoining slots with ribbon cables across the board tops. I've emailed the researcher who used this system in the early '80s but haven't heard back from him yet. 2) Are there PDP8 device interfaces for either the DSD430 or DSD880? The 430 emulates a pair of RX02's; the 880 emulates an RX02 + RL02 and is capable of formatting floppy disks in stand-alone mode. From the bitsavers manuals, I see that there is a PDP8 interface (DSD 2131) for the 210 and 440 chassis, but it's not clear if there were similar interfaces for the other units or if the 2131 will support the 430 chassis. Thanks for any help, Jack From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 26 10:39:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:39:04 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: , <4B349107.32369.1B606C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B35CBA8.31224.5C403@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2009 at 14:03, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Their web site shows a location at 1133 Broadway in NYC. Have budget > issues forced Manhattan to relocate? :-) I have never received a thing from the NYC location. My packages always bear a Thai return address. Sometimes they're sent from Bangkok, but lately, they've been shipped from Hongkong. I suspect that the super-cheap China-to-US shipping (you could never ship in the reverse direction for a like amount. Some "free" trade...) is very attractive to them. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Dec 26 11:51:05 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:51:05 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/34A acquistion and questions - In-Reply-To: <4FE4F863EB3A42489D0205FAD39669ED@obie> References: <4FE4F863EB3A42489D0205FAD39669ED@obie> Message-ID: First of all, congratulations! That's a great haul. The table of contents of the DSD-880 manual does not reference a PDP-8 interface, while the DSD-440 manual does. FWIW -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin [jack.rubin at ameritech.net] Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 6:09 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-11/34A acquistion and questions - I recently rescued the following system: One full size (H960)rack cabinet containing (from the top down) - DEC PDP-11 crest Telebyte TDX 1/2" tape drive PDP-11/34A w/ full programmer's console Data Systems Design (DSD) 880-120 homebrew connector panel Wesperline I/O unit One "corporate highboy" cabinet (VAX style) RLO2 drive BA11-KE chassis non-racked items - 2nd RLO2 drive DSD twin floppy system, 110/430 additionally - 8 disk packs + "pack rack" several boxes of 8" floppies, including an install set for RT-11 V5.1c, configured by Cambridge Digital, dated 1984 card inventory (by chassis slot) - - 11/34A (chassis marked 11/34A XX) (1) M8266 control module (KD11-EA) (2) M8265 datapath module (KD11-EA) (3) M8267 floating point (FP-11A) (4) M7859 programmer cons (KY11-LB) (5) M8268 cache board (KK11-A) (6) M7801 data word cntrl (MC11) [I think I must have misread the card number and this is really M7891, 128KW MOS RAM, but I haven't yet verified that] (9)<->(11) M9202 backplane jumper (12)DSD 808830 controller for DSD 880-120 (13)DILOG DU130 tape controller (14)M7865) SLU+RTC (DL11-W) - BA-11-KE (3) M7860 parallel I/O (DR11-C) (5)&(6) MSP-3/A, MSP-3/C Computer Design Assoc. boards (8) M7762 RL02 disk controller (RL11) (9)<->(11) M9202 backplane jumper (12)&(13) MDP-3/M CDA boards (includes 4 AMD 2903 SuperSlice chips) Pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/pdp1134a ************************* The system was apparently used for data logging and analysis in a windtunnel application. Questions: 1) Can anyone provide more info on the Computer Design Associates board sets? Each of the board sets is comprised of two boards in adjoining slots with ribbon cables across the board tops. I've emailed the researcher who used this system in the early '80s but haven't heard back from him yet. 2) Are there PDP8 device interfaces for either the DSD430 or DSD880? The 430 emulates a pair of RX02's; the 880 emulates an RX02 + RL02 and is capable of formatting floppy disks in stand-alone mode. From the bitsavers manuals, I see that there is a PDP8 interface (DSD 2131) for the 210 and 440 chassis, but it's not clear if there were similar interfaces for the other units or if the 2131 will support the 430 chassis. Thanks for any help, Jack From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 26 13:01:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:01:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy Newtonsday! In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Dec 25, 9 10:10:04 pm Message-ID: > > ...in deference to one of our treasured list members. I suspect I half-fit that, in that I celebrated Newtonsday yesterday but I would hardly call myself 'treasured'. > And to others, Merry Christmas; and to all, a Happy New Year; may FWIW, I hae no objection to people who celebrate Christmas, or any other religious festival. Your beliefs are just that -- yours -- and I am not going to criticise them. What I do have an objection to is the ridiculous over-comercialisation of Christmas that has taken place over here (and I guess elsewhere), along with products advertisd as 'ideal gifts'. The only reason they're ideal givts is that nobody would want them themselves, so the only thing you can do with them is give them to somebody else. There's another annoying thing happening over here at the momnet -- the celebration of the end of a decade. Darn it, ther was no year 0. So the decade ends at the end of 2010, not the end of 2009. I did the traditioaal things on Newtonsday. Traditional for me, that is. Namely repariing classic computers. I spent the moring making a keeper for the permanent magnet field in that burnt-out motor in my 9125A plotter [1] and then took the motor apart. The afternoon was spent stripping the old wire off the armature core and making notes as to how it was wound. [1[ The plotter for the HP9100. I refuse to enter the debate as to whether the HP9100 is a computer or not. It's a classic piece of electronics, it's a programmable data processing device. And it's beautiful. > your capacitors all retain a low ESR and may the "good stuff" appear > at the curbside of your path, decked with signs saying "take me"! I wish :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 26 13:03:46 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:03:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy Newtonsday! In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Dec 25, 9 09:40:23 pm Message-ID: > > ...and may the oxide stay on your tapes and away from your edge connectors.= As my TRS-80 Model 1 Technical Manual says : 'May all your software and logic be glitch-free' -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 26 11:55:37 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:55:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RT-PC available: Going once.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <665164.50839.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> actually I did contact you offlist. But received no reply. > I've had zero response to this offer.? The system is > going to end up in recycling if no one claims it by > January. > > Steve From evan at snarc.net Sat Dec 26 18:58:42 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:58:42 -0500 Subject: Oki Message-ID: <4B36B142.1020506@snarc.net> Is anyone here an expert on Oki computers from the early 1980s? If so, please contact me off-list. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Dec 26 19:25:48 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:25:48 -0500 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) In-Reply-To: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> References: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> Message-ID: <4B36B79C.1090200@compsys.to> >Bruce Ray wrote: > G'day DG legacy preservation fans - > > After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement > with Data General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit > and some 32-bit software for educational and non-commercial purposes. > A official announcement will be made next month, but I wanted to let > list members know that sometimes good things can happen. > > A special thanks is extended to the amazing William Donzelli, and to > the quick-footed Carl Friend, who made the physical tape rescue in > Massachusetts possible. Thanks also to the legal and technical folk > at EMC (Data General) who finally made this a legal reality - and who > might prefer annonymity at this point. Congratulations! It provides some encouragement for other such arrangements. I am rather curious. How will the software actually be used? I know that many of the participants of the classiccmp list will use the software to run on their Data General hardware. However, is anyone still making changes to the operating system? Such as in fixing bugs or producing enhancements? Is the OS able to handle dates beyond 1999? I don't have any knowledge of DG software at this point, so I wonder how having permission to run the software will change anything? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 20:58:30 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:58:30 -0800 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) In-Reply-To: <4B36B79C.1090200@compsys.to> References: <025301ca84de$c5e33b50$04d4db46@linksys> <4B36B79C.1090200@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Bruce Ray wrote: > >> G'day DG legacy preservation fans - >> >> After 9+ years of negotiations, Wild Hare has secured an agreement with >> Data General to recover, archive and release Data General 16-bit and some >> 32-bit software for educational and non-commercial purposes. ?A official >> announcement will be made next month, but I wanted to let list members know >> that sometimes good things can happen. >> >> A special thanks is extended to the amazing William Donzelli, and to the >> quick-footed Carl Friend, who made the physical tape rescue in Massachusetts >> possible. ?Thanks also to the legal and technical folk at EMC (Data General) >> who finally made this a legal reality - and who might prefer annonymity at >> this point. > > Congratulations! ?It provides some encouragement for other such > arrangements. > > I am rather curious. ?How will the software actually be used? ?I know that > many > of the participants of the classiccmp list will use the software to run on > their > Data General hardware. > > However, is anyone still making changes to the operating system? ?Such as > in fixing bugs or producing enhancements? ?Is the OS able to handle dates > beyond 1999? ?I don't have any knowledge of DG software at this point, > so I wonder how having permission to run the software will change anything? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine I don't have much to add here, with Bruce knowing *FAR* more than I do... but, it'll be nice to be able to find and legally use such software. When I rescued my Eclipse MV/4000, I had to beg and scrounge to find complete tapes for the machine (thanks to Bruce and another old DG friend), but I'm glad I was able to... now if I could just find the time to finish bringing the machine back to life. :) Mark From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 26 19:33:05 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:33:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) Message-ID: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> off the top of my head, these computers sported the '186: Tandy TRS-80 model 2000 the Mindset Burroughs ICON Televideo Personal Mini Altos 586 (not sure if *that* one did, but one Altos model did regardless) Research Machines Nimbus (UK) odd but still interesting categories: original Ampro Little Board PC (single board computer) Radio Electronics RE Robot (could be bought ready built from Vesta Technologies - they kindly provided ROM images) - 80188 AST and Orchid 4-port cards (not really *computers*, yet they are) Vermont Microsystems PGC clone graphics card (80188) let me see if I remember this one correctly - Advanced Computer Products of Anaheim, CA produced a box w/a fully compatible 80186 mobo probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds of industrial embedded systems ********************************************************* likely there are other worthy additions to this list. But the very last entry is what I'd like to touch on. Where are all these blooming things? I even remember a company in Long Island (can't remember the name, off of Vets highway) that made one. The ability to enumerate every one is a task likely to be carried out as naming all the bizarre and perverse specialty software that (truly) was available for the Tandy 2000 at one time (bizarro scientific apps mostly, but some off the wall accounting packages and whatnot also). But give it a go gurus. Lessee what you can come up with - oh, hope you all had a Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, joyous Kwanzaa. But that's it. The pagans and atheists can go scratch LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL From gyorpb at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 04:06:32 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:06:32 +0100 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com> On 27 Dec 2009, at 02:33, Chris M wrote: > likely there are other worthy additions to this list. Philips :Yes .tsooJ -- I tried sniffing coke once, but the ice cubes got stuck in my nose. -- Joost van de Griek From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 27 09:03:11 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:03:11 +0100 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091227160311.69b77f47.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:34:59 -0800 Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I have one fo them and it is getting old > burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning > different code into it, lather ?rinse ?repeat. Time to get (or build) an EPROM emulator? Build a FLASH-EPROM to EPROM adapter socket? (As erasing a FLASH-EPROM is faster then erasing a EPROM and doesn't need a UV lamp.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 27 09:25:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:25:54 -0800 Subject: Convergent NGEN documentation Message-ID: <4B377C82.2090702@bitsavers.org> I spent the weekend scanning and taking pictures of what I was able to find on the NGEN/Burroughs B2x systems, now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/convergent There are a few things in particular on the wanted list, mainly hardware docs. I'm hoping another list member will scan the system documentation that he has. I'm also working on trying to understand how to make a bootable floppy from a running 10mb system. It was interesting to see how the Xerox XDE development envronment influenced CTOS. File naming conventions are pretty much the same as in XDE, for example. From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 27 09:48:20 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:48:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Dec 2009, Chris M wrote: > Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:33:05 -0800 (PST) > From: Chris M > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: talk > Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) > > off the top of my head, these computers sported the '186: > > Tandy TRS-80 model 2000 > > the Mindset > > Burroughs ICON > > Televideo Personal Mini > > Altos 586 (not sure if *that* one did, but one Altos model did regardless) > > Research Machines Nimbus (UK) > > odd but still interesting categories: > > original Ampro Little Board PC (single board computer) > > Radio Electronics RE Robot (could be bought ready built from Vesta Technologies - they kindly provided ROM images) - 80188 > > AST and Orchid 4-port cards (not really *computers*, yet they are) > > Vermont Microsystems PGC clone graphics card (80188) > > let me see if I remember this one correctly - Advanced Computer Products of Anaheim, CA produced a box w/a fully compatible 80186 mobo > > probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds of industrial embedded systems > > ********************************************************* > > likely there are other worthy additions to this list. But the very last entry is what I'd like to touch on. Where are all these blooming things? I even remember a company in Long Island (can't remember the name, off of Vets highway) that made one. The ability to enumerate every one is a task likely to be carried out as naming all the bizarre and perverse specialty software that (truly) was available for the Tandy 2000 at one time (bizarro scientific apps mostly, but some off the wall accounting packages and whatnot also). But give it a go gurus. Lessee what you can come up with - > > oh, hope you all had a Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, joyous Kwanzaa. But that's it. The pagans and atheists can go scratch LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL > > > > Heres a good collection: http://books.google.com/books?id=fi4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=mad+computer+80186&source=bl&ots=CLwCbXBOnn&sig=KlICTwVOVqWsIL0iWH01SNud9-0&hl=en&ei=doE3S7HoDdDIlAfss-ilBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mad%20computer%2080186&f=false I remember Mad computers, saw them at the 1983 or 4 COMDEX Peter Wallace From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 27 11:08:43 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:08:43 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <20091227160311.69b77f47.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , <20091227160311.69b77f47.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Hi Even faster would be to use a CMOS RAM and a battery. No special voltages or special write sequences. Dwight > Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:03:11 +0100 > From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 2732 eproms. > > On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:34:59 -0800 > Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > I have one fo them and it is getting old > > burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning > > different code into it, lather ?rinse ?repeat. > Time to get (or build) an EPROM emulator? > Build a FLASH-EPROM to EPROM adapter socket? > (As erasing a FLASH-EPROM is faster then erasing a EPROM and doesn't > need a UV lamp.) > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 27 11:32:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:32:05 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: , <20091227160311.69b77f47.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Message-ID: <4B372995.30909.EF74C@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2009 at 9:08, dwight elvey wrote: > Even faster would be to use a CMOS RAM and > a battery. No special voltages or special > write sequences. Does a 4Kx8 SRAM exist in a 24 pin JEDEC configuration? --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 27 11:41:30 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:41:30 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: , <20091227160311.69b77f47.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <61227D55-B9BD-412A-B14A-A961E47E7199@shiresoft.com> On Dec 27, 2009, at 9:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Even faster would be to use a CMOS RAM and > > a battery. No special voltages or special > > write sequences. Battery == bad. Use FRAM. It's just like RAM except it retains it's contents when power's off. Comes in x8 and x16 varieties. TTFN - Guy > >> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:03:11 +0100 >> From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: 2732 eproms. >> >> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:34:59 -0800 >> Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >>> I have one fo them and it is getting old >>> burning it, testing the device, erasing it, and burning >>> different code into it, lather rinse repeat. >> Time to get (or build) an EPROM emulator? >> Build a FLASH-EPROM to EPROM adapter socket? >> (As erasing a FLASH-EPROM is faster then erasing a EPROM and doesn't >> need a UV lamp.) >> -- >> >> >> tsch??, >> Jochen >> >> Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 27 11:47:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:47:34 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4B372D36.19711.1D26D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2009 at 7:48, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > I remember Mad computers, saw them at the 1983 or 4 COMDEX I still use a MAD case for one of my XT-compatible systems. Sometime around 1986, Haltek had a pile of their cases and (incompatible) motherboards. Took a little drilling for standoffs and installation of a different power supply connector, but it's a very sturdy and compact case. Add to your list, the Durango Poppy--a combo 186/286 system, witth the 286 supplied as an optional upgrade (the socket was on all systems). I think the release date was about 1983-84, with the 286 upgrade and Xenix coming later. And don't forget the systems that used the NEC V40 and V50; similar (integrated peripherals, not totally PC compatible), but not pin- compatible with the 188/186. The 186/188 found its way into a *lot* of peripherals, including USR modems and a number of high-end tape systems. Somewhere, I remember that the 186 could be used in a very PC- compatible mode if you were willing to forego the integrated peripherals. Were there any PC accelerator cards made with the 186? I believe there may have been. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 27 11:48:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:48:45 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <61227D55-B9BD-412A-B14A-A961E47E7199@shiresoft.com> References: , , <61227D55-B9BD-412A-B14A-A961E47E7199@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4B372D7D.22761.1E3B80@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2009 at 9:41, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Battery == bad. Use FRAM. It's just like RAM except it retains it's > contents when power's off. Comes in x8 and x16 varieties. Doesn't help--the Ramtron 8Kx8 (smallest available) is still a 28-pin package. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 27 11:50:55 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:50:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B372D36.19711.1D26D4@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Dec 27, 9 09:47:34 am" Message-ID: <200912271750.nBRHotcp020562@floodgap.com> > Add to your list, the Durango Poppy--a combo 186/286 system, witth > the 286 supplied as an optional upgrade (the socket was on all > systems). I think the release date was about 1983-84, with the 286 > upgrade and Xenix coming later. Also add the HP 95LX palmtop, and possibly others in the LX line (I don't remember if they all do). They used a '186. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If at first you don't succeed, don't go skydiving. ------------------------- From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Dec 27 12:01:28 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:01:28 -0500 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <61227D55-B9BD-412A-B14A-A961E47E7199@shiresoft.com> References: , <20091227160311.69b77f47.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <61227D55-B9BD-412A-B14A-A961E47E7199@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4B37A0F8.8050200@verizon.net> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Dec 27, 2009, at 9:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> >> Hi >> >> Even faster would be to use a CMOS RAM and >> >> a battery. No special voltages or special >> >> write sequences. > > Battery == bad. Use FRAM. It's just like RAM except it retains it's > contents when power's off. Comes in x8 and x16 varieties. I use FRAM in my drive controller. Not that I needed the non-volatile properties. It's serial(great for small number of pins, opcodes very easy to use), 8 pins, no wait write/reads, fast (up to 20mhz), reprogrammable virtually unlimited number of writes. I got samples from local Ramtron distributor. (I haven't followed the thread, so no idea if this is applicable to task at hand, but I still think these are neat chips. :) Keith From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 27 12:39:14 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:39:14 +0000 Subject: Convergent/Unisys B38. Power supply needed In-Reply-To: <4B377C82.2090702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <122720091839.11310.4B37A9D1000D0EE100002C2E22230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Al Kossow : -------------- > I spent the weekend scanning and taking pictures of what I was able to > find on the NGEN/Burroughs B2x systems, now up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/convergent > > Sorry Al, No manuals or software. Just reminded me I need External Power Supplies Does any ine have the external power supplies for the B38. These where large "floor warts" - Jerry From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 27 12:42:21 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:42:21 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <4B372D7D.22761.1E3B80@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <61227D55-B9BD-412A-B14A-A961E47E7199@shiresoft.com> <4B372D7D.22761.1E3B80@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2009, at 9:48 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Dec 2009 at 9:41, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Battery == bad. Use FRAM. It's just like RAM except it retains it's >> contents when power's off. Comes in x8 and x16 varieties. > > Doesn't help--the Ramtron 8Kx8 (smallest available) is still a 28-pin > package. Unless you're really cramped for space, why not create a "custom" chip carrier? Use one of the SMT packages (vs DIP). Many of the Ramtron parts are marketed as replacements for RAM+battery so I suspect that you'd run the same problem with that solution too. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 27 13:08:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:08:54 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: References: , <4B372D7D.22761.1E3B80@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B374046.18775.679AB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2009 at 10:42, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Unless you're really cramped for space, why not create a "custom" chip > carrier? Use one of the SMT packages (vs DIP). Many of the Ramtron > parts are marketed as replacements for RAM+battery so I suspect that > you'd run the same problem with that solution too. Given that this involves EPROMs, why not spend the $5 or so for a new one, program it and forget about it? I don't understand that there would be any sort of positive ROI in this particular application. I can see the benefit of MRAM or FRAM where the data changes often, but this doesn't appear to be such an application. --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 13:40:52 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Unless you're really cramped for space, why not create a > "custom" chip carrier?? Use one of the SMT packages (vs > DIP).? Many of the Ramtron parts are marketed as > replacements for RAM+battery so I suspect that you'd run the > same problem with that solution too. All these "solutions" seem like a heck of a lot more work than the EPROMs they're meant to replace. I mean, used EPROM chips are fifty cents each or less, and they are quite easy to get. Even if you're doing code development, changing the code in the chip many times a day, having a dozen chips on hand would be the simple, cheap way to go. Erasing them isn't that big a deal. I've done development on homemade stuff requiring the constant reburning of EPROMs to test code, and it's really not any sort of problem - just have a handful of chips, and when you start running low, throw some into the eraser and they'll be ready when you need them next. If everyone else is this opposed to the simple, reliable, inexpensive EPROM - then I'll happily take any unwanted chips :) -Ian From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 14:22:27 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:22:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAX 11/750 2.5V supply problems Message-ID: <90205.17132.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have been trying for some time to repair the 2.5V supply on an 11/750, without success. The symptoms are loud squealing which changes back and forth in pitch (in fact it sounds a bit like RTTY, only over a couple of pitches), OVERCURRENT and REG FAIL indicators on the status panel on the back of the machine. All the boards are pulled from the backplane and I?m using dummy loads on the supply. There?s no evidence of shorts on the chassis or on any of the supply outputs. I?m testing with the voltage sense wiring in place. The output electrolytics have been replaced on the 2 regulator boards and the big electrolytics on the primary side check out OK. I?ve measured 300V DC across the switching transistors on the primary side. I?ve not detected any problems with the electrolytics on the 30V supply and 2.5V supply but I have ordered replacements just to be on the safe side. I?ve checked over all the diodes and transistors with the Huntron tracker with no obvious evidence of any failures. So far all I?ve really been able to establish is that there?s no output on the ?secondary? side of the supply, that is, the 30V supply which drives the +/-5VB and 12V regulators, and the 2.5V main output of the supply. I think the REG FAIL lamp is a red herring because without the 30V supply active, REG FAIL would have to be lit if I understand the schematic correctly. I?m posting on the off-chance that someone has had this problem and has dealt with it. I?ve been looking at this on and off since July but haven?t made any headway. Thanks for any suggestions the group may be able to offer. By the way, the story of the machine and work done to date is at http://comley.us/browse.php?&action=show&artefactID=1051 -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 27 14:26:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:26:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Dec 26, 9 05:33:05 pm Message-ID: > probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds of industrial embedded systems Years ago I repaired a friend's laser printer (long before I could afford such a machine..), and I am sure I rememebr an 80186 or 80188 on the formatter board. And I think I remember an 80188 in my X-terminal. No, not to run the X serer (that runsd on a TMS3410 video chip IIRC), but for I/O. > > ********************************************************* > > likely there are other worthy additions to this list. But the very Jules Richardson gave me some kind of Philips multi-user system, which has a couple of 808188s in it (and a fair pile of Z80s...). What was the processor in the MS-DOS second processor for the BBC micro? Something says '80186' to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 27 14:28:52 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:28:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com> from "Joost van de Griek" at Dec 27, 9 11:06:32 am Message-ID: > > On 27 Dec 2009, at 02:33, Chris M wrote: > > > likely there are other worthy additions to this list. > > > Philips :Yes Do you know anything about the Philips machines? As I mentioned in another message, Jules gave me some kind of Philips multi-user box. A number of boards each with 2 serial ports (IIRC), some with Z80As on them , others with 80188s. A large PSU (which I must get round to repairing) with lead-acid battery backup And what seems to be a SCSI interface to the disk system and a space for a QIC tape drive. Any ideas? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 27 14:33:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:33:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <200912271750.nBRHotcp020562@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 27, 9 09:50:55 am Message-ID: > Also add the HP 95LX palmtop, and possibly others in the LX line (I don't > remember if they all do). They used a '186. IIRC the 95LX uses an 80C188. The Omnigo 100 (touch-screen palmtop) uses a PC-on-a-chip made by a company called Vadem. I have the data sheet on that chip somewhere, I will haev to check what the CPU is. -tony From gyorpb at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 15:45:22 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:45:22 +0100 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <766444380912271345n6b0cd7dal26021db44d29930a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/27 Tony Duell : >> On 27 Dec 2009, at 02:33, Chris M wrote: >> >>> likely there are other worthy additions to this list. >> >> Philips :Yes > > Do you know anything about the Philips machines? No, not much at all. I own a couple of Philips MSX machines, but they're all manufactured by Sanyo. The P2000 line of micros was fairly common in Holland in the early 80's, and they made some rather nice PC clones for a while (NMS9100 series). I only ever remember reading an article about the :YES, but somehow, the fact that it had a 80186 CPU stuck in my mind for all these years. (I'll be beating everyone silly in Trivial Pursuit again, this new year's eve!) > As I mentioned in another message, Jules gave me some kind of Philips > multi-user box. A number of boards each with 2 serial ports (IIRC), some > with Z80As on them , others with 80188s. A large PSU (which I must get > round to repairing) with lead-acid battery backup And what seems to be a > SCSI interface to the disk system and a space for a QIC tape drive. > > Any ideas? Well, apart from the aforementioned home computers, Philips wwere active in many specialist markets, from medical equipment to industrial and test equipment. I believe they made midrange to "biggish" iron office machinery, as well. But I do assume it was all rather low volume stuff. .tsooJ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 27 16:01:35 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:01:35 +0000 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B37D93F.7090400@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > What was the processor in the MS-DOS second processor for the BBC micro? > Something says '80186' to me. The Master 512, yep the co-pro board is an 80186, with 512K of memory (expandable to 1M). It ran a special version of DR DosPlus. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 27 16:03:55 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 14:03:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <766444380912271345n6b0cd7dal26021db44d29930a@mail.gmail.com> References: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com> <766444380912271345n6b0cd7dal26021db44d29930a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Theres also an ancient Ungermann-Bass ISA Ethernet card that uses a 80186 (and a 82586) Doesnt the DECNA use a 80186 as well? Peter Wallace From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Dec 25 10:20:39 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:20:39 -0800 Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B34E657.8040705@garlic.com> Tony Duell ????????: >> Perhaps the 8291 used less code on the microcontrollers? Or perhaps it >> could do seomthing on it's own, unlike the 9914, such as assert NRDF >> when it's databuffer was full? Come to think of it, wasn't the 8291 >> almost "smart", like a hard coded microcontroller? > > I think you're thinking of the 8292, which was an add-on chip to the 8291 > to give contrtoller functionality (the 8291 on its own could talk and > listen, but couldn't act as a controller). That chip was clearly a > programmed 8041 or 8042. That's probably it. It's been a while since I'v read the data sheets. And I seem to recall something GPIB from other sources, like Fairchild, AMD and NatSemi, as well. > >>> I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a=20 >>> HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB=20 >>> buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF=20 >>> card. Make it 'open' and I'll build several... >> >> Or even a SATA, PATA, USB storage interface. Such a stand alone >> emulator would be very useful. > > If the design is 'open', then presumaly you could mofify it for whatever > storage device you want. And surely it would be better to have a working > desing for _any_ modern-ish storage device rather than debate about which > device to use. > I was suggesting a bit more along the lines of "It would be nice if a developer wouldn't focus solely on one type of storage but rather design something where any storage medium could be easily added." There tends to be way too much of a laser focus on favorite storage media, i/o, interfaces, etc. and others end up having to reinvent the wheel, even if the design is open. >> There's a fair description of the Amigo protocol floating around as >> well as the CS80 spec as a PDF on Bitsavers. Since all the HP drive > > The amigo protocol is in some of the HP drive service manuals. You're right! And I've seen it elsewhere, as well. There was a couple of detailed notes going around BBS's. Xebec also published their own. > >> controllers are built around Intel microcontrollers, shouldn't be too > > Are they? While I'll believe (if shown) that such a device exists, every > HP drive I've been inside [1] uses a Motorola processor. An 6802 in the > 82901, 68B09s in most others and a 68000(!) in the 9145 tape drive. No, you're right: They're Motorola in the HP controllers. MSC and Xebec used Intel. I didn't trap the tired memory errors. Sorry. (Wouldn't it be nice to have 8bit processors w/ 500MHz to 1GHz clocks?) > > If this is a 9133XV with the HP controllers (6809 + 9114, etc), then I > have unofficial scheamtics. The floppy controller is actually quite > simple -- most of the logic is on the top board, the lower board contains > the master clock and disk data separator. Apart from the EPROM (which is > the sama as in a 9121 IIRC), there's nothing remotely custom in there. > It has the separate HP HD and FD controller boards. It appears to work normally except that it is unable to read any floppies. Changing the drive did not change anything about that. Beyond that, no idea, although it may be the data separator board. One Of These Days, I'll dig it up, thaw it and see what else I can find. == jd Fortune's Real-Life Courtroom Quote #52: Q: What is your name? A: Ernestine McDowell. Q: And what is your marital status? A: Fair. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Dec 27 18:00:40 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:00:40 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <524DF0C7DDE.000003CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pcw at mesanet.com > Sent: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:48:20 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) > > On Sat, 26 Dec 2009, Chris M wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:33:05 -0800 (PST) >> From: Chris M >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> To: talk >> Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) >> >> off the top of my head, these computers sported the '186: >> >> Tandy TRS-80 model 2000 >> >> the Mindset >> >> Burroughs ICON >> >> Televideo Personal Mini >> >> Altos 586 (not sure if *that* one did, but one Altos model did >> regardless) >> >> Research Machines Nimbus (UK) >> >> odd but still interesting categories: >> >> original Ampro Little Board PC (single board computer) >> >> Radio Electronics RE Robot (could be bought ready built from Vesta >> Technologies - they kindly provided ROM images) - 80188 >> >> AST and Orchid 4-port cards (not really *computers*, yet they are) >> >> Vermont Microsystems PGC clone graphics card (80188) >> >> let me see if I remember this one correctly - Advanced Computer Products >> of Anaheim, CA produced a box w/a fully compatible 80186 mobo >> >> probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds of industrial embedded >> systems >> >> ********************************************************* >> >> likely there are other worthy additions to this list. But the very last >> entry is what I'd like to touch on. Where are all these blooming things? >> I even remember a company in Long Island (can't remember the name, off >> of Vets highway) that made one. The ability to enumerate every one is a >> task likely to be carried out as naming all the bizarre and perverse >> specialty software that (truly) was available for the Tandy 2000 at one >> time (bizarro scientific apps mostly, but some off the wall accounting >> packages and whatnot also). But give it a go gurus. Lessee what you can >> come up with - >> >> oh, hope you all had a Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, joyous Kwanzaa. >> But that's it. The pagans and atheists can go scratch LOL LOL LOL LOL >> LOL >> >> >> >> > > Heres a good collection: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fi4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=mad+computer+80186&source=bl&ots=CLwCbXBOnn&sig=KlICTwVOVqWsIL0iWH01SNud9-0&hl=en&ei=doE3S7HoDdDIlAfss-ilBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mad%20computer%2080186&f=false > > > I remember Mad computers, saw them at the 1983 or 4 COMDEX > > > Peter Wallace The 3Com 3Server and 3Server3 used the '186. Some guy at 3Com (back in the day) told me they used it because of the 186's (then) wicked-fast DMA speed. I found some 80186's marked SAMPLE in my stash today . . . From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 27 18:07:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:07:58 -0500 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <059FCFC2-6F21-417F-ACFE-D6BFBF606719@neurotica.com> On Dec 27, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Unless you're really cramped for space, why not create a >> "custom" chip carrier? Use one of the SMT packages (vs >> DIP). Many of the Ramtron parts are marketed as >> replacements for RAM+battery so I suspect that you'd run the >> same problem with that solution too. > > All these "solutions" seem like a heck of a lot more work than the > EPROMs they're meant to replace. I mean, used EPROM chips are fifty > cents each or less, and they are quite easy to get. Even if you're > doing code development, changing the code in the chip many times a > day, having a dozen chips on hand would be the simple, cheap way to > go. Erasing them isn't that big a deal. Absolutely. It has been done this way for decades; parts and equipment are cheap and readily available. > I've done development on homemade stuff requiring the constant > reburning of EPROMs to test code, and it's really not any sort of > problem - just have a handful of chips, and when you start running > low, throw some into the eraser and they'll be ready when you need > them next. Yup, if you rotate through them, there's no waiting. I've done tons of development this way, as I suspect many here have. Sure, flash or FRAM chips do have a convenience advantage, but IMO it is very slight. The fact that something is newer doesn't automatically make it better, and because something is better doesn't automatically make it "better enough" to ignore everything that came before it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 27 20:07:23 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:07:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 27, 9 08:33:26 pm" Message-ID: <200912280207.nBS27NxF017080@floodgap.com> > > Also add the HP 95LX palmtop, and possibly others in the LX line (I don't > > remember if they all do). They used a '186. > > IIRC the 95LX uses an 80C188. Actually, I was thinking of the HP 200LX, sorry. That *does* have a 80186 for sure. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them? -- Justice Gustine -------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 20:18:13 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've done development on homemade stuff requiring the constant reburning of EPROMs to test code, and it's really not any sort of problem - just have a handful of chips, and when you start running low, throw some into the eraser and they'll be ready when you need them next. I've done that lots, but there was one case where I was very, very happy to have an EPROM emulator... it was embedded firmware for a VAXBI peripheral card we were making (COMBOARD-BI). By being able to update the firmware over a serial port and not have to shut down the machine to swap out the chips, I was able to test a new version of code in under two minutes vs a 20-minute shutdown, power-off, power-on, boot cycle. For normal, table-top sorts of projects, though, real EPROMs aren't so bad if you have 4-5 sets. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 20:42:56 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 21:42:56 -0500 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <66319.82491.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > All these "solutions" seem like a heck of a lot more work than the EPROMs they're meant to replace. I mean, used EPROM chips are fifty cents each or less, and they are quite easy to get. Even if you're doing code development, changing the code in the chip many times a day, having a dozen chips on hand would be the simple, cheap way to go. Erasing them isn't that big a deal. Yes, 2732s (and below) are still easy to get - even for free. I may still have a bunch, unless Ian has culled them out of my EPROM box. Now 2704s are a different story. I found a board with a few of them digging thru all this CDC stuff. Of course I had to rescue them... -- Will From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 27 20:47:29 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:47:29 -0800 Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone mentioned epromman.com, it seems that there was a fire at their storage? Or warehouse? In reply to a query I sent them... - Sorry again....since the fire, there have been some problems with our insurance and they have forced us to stop our move in midstream.? It seems that they want to salvage the entire eprom section as part of our claim.? Not the worst thing for us but I honestly don't think I'll be able to restock until late January. - From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 21:40:02 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:40:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2732 eproms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <251013.33194.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/27/09, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, 2732s (and below) are still easy to get - even for > free. I may > still have a bunch, unless Ian has culled them out of my > EPROM box. Hehe. Nah, you still have quite a few in there. Which reminds me, you really should take this box of EPROMs back, lest they all find their way into my projects. Some of them are looking nervous. > Now 2704s are a different story. I found a board with a few > of them > digging thru all this CDC stuff. Of course I had to rescue > them... Good point. *Those* are very rare. I really should try to talk you out of one of those, just so I can say I have one. If I was ever working on any hardware that used those, I'd simply build an adapter and use part of a 2732 or something. That's the nice thing about EPROM chips - even if you don't have the right one, it's usually not that big a deal to use a more common chip and tie the unused address lines to ground. The only annoying thing is on the other side of the spectrum - needing a bigger chip. Lately I've been working with hardware that requires much larger chips, and 16 bit wide ones at that. 16 and 32 megabit EPROMs are out there, but aren't nearly as easily scavenged as, say, 27512's are. -Ian From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 27 10:26:21 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:26:21 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) (development system with 188) In-Reply-To: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <988199.92548.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B378AAD.4020505@jwsss.com> Chris M wrote: > off the top of my head, these computers sported the '186: > > > > probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds of industrial embedded systems > We had a pair of cards at Peer Protocols, the 5000 and 7000 development systems. They were used to run SCSI test diagnostics and had ISA interfaces on the cards. They had 188's which were controllable from the host machine via a couple of gates. They were held reset at power on. There was 512k of memory that the 188 had, and a 4 k shared window to the host's isa I/O range which was strappable. We would load most of the 512k when starting the development environment, and then hit reset and release the 188. Also had 2 serial lines for initial development environment work. I don't recall the exact debugger, but it is still around. It had a 256 byte or so footprint for grabbing the debug, which we included in the support environment. Original work was thru a serial port to a second PC. Later after the code stabilized, I added a virtual com port that could run on the same PC that talked to a virtual port on the 188's shared memory (4 bytes with flag / data each way). Main challenge up till windows 95 and 98 came out was memory on the DOS side to run the debugger + the host side stack. The host side could be run as either a library linked into applications that run under dos, or could be loaded as a TSR with a TSR call. The DOS TSR was about 300K so a full system of memory on the AT compatible was required to run the thing. Later memory options for expansion were able to be configured to get the AT DOS memory up to the 768K range and still not step on the 4k memory window, and that made things lot easier. Windows 95 and 98 allowed the debugger to run in an 8086 box and still see the shared memory window, so we could debug, and run the full system all on one box. Also had a couple of Toshiba 3100's with ISA boxes which were used for demos / portable development environments. Those were really nice early portable plasma screen "laptops" in the day. Our main code was compiled with Microsoft C6 which was preferred by more developers at the time than Borland, though we maintained Borland compatability. We would have used the 186, but the 188 had a simpler bus and our hardware guys preferred it. From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun Dec 27 11:59:42 2009 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:59:42 -0700 Subject: Data General software agreement pre-announcement (Merry Christmas) References: <002c01ca8530$dc983f10$139dfd4b@linksys> <4B34E562.2060601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00da01ca871e$6054f6b0$0041fc4b@linksys> Some details for those who have e.mailed me on- and off-list: Good News / Bad News... The DG Agreement is a "good news / bad news" situation for us hard-core preservationists. It gives Wild Hare a legal umbrella to restore and archive for non-commercial and educational purposes the tapes from DG (EMC) "Manufacturing". "Manufacturing" means the DG department that shipped DG software to customers, so this represents tapes from past-the-end of the software development cycle. The good news is that we finally were given all remaining DG tapes ad EMC, the bad news is that most software source code tapes were tossed years (decades) ago. Physical tape recovery Approximately 1,200 DG tapes were kept in an unused inside office in the basement in Hopkinton in tape racks and boxes. They were in pretty good physical condition and almost all had accurate DG labels. The tapes were 'triaged' and assigned priorities, and all of the critical tapes have been read - over 750+ tapes read/recovered so far. The hundreds of unread tapes unread at this point are lower priority items such as CEO foreign language add-ons, laser printer fonts(!), and Computer Based Training (CBT) data tapes. About 10% of tapes so far are "unreadable" with current hardware/software recovery setup and have been set aside for further processing. No tapes that I consider "critical" have been lost. Software The object code of most DG operating systems and languages have been recovered - that is what DG Manufacturing shipped to customers. Unfortunately, the DG manufacturing tapes do not contain source code for most DG operating systems and languages. I've also found that the official DG tapes do not have the latest OS version in a few cases(!), but have found tape labeling issues that may account for this. The Plan I plan to create OS "packs" that can be run on SimH, Wild Hare's reNOVAte, reNOVAte/J or other Nova emulators. These would include a "quick start" disk image, official DG release tape image(s), the corresponding DG documentation set in .pdf format, and instructions for use. This also 'verifies' all critical [tape] data through original DG procedures. This will be initiall done for SOS, RDOS and MP/OS and the commonly used languages (ALGOL, FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN 5, MAC, DG/L, Extended BASIC). There are several other projects planned, but more about them later... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com From icipasla at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 12:29:42 2009 From: icipasla at gmail.com (Normand Fisher) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:29:42 -0500 Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C Message-ID: Old DEC Power Control 861C Hi, looks like I am not getting the posting in my e-mail but my messages do get posted. I found this replyto my previous message by Tony Duell in the archives. To follow-up, the 861C emits a crackling noise for the first few seconds (20 or so) and then I can hear a relay chattering (very noisy!). Also the light on the front panel is flashing continuously (maybe that's normal.) Normand * * ------------------------------ >* *>* On December 18, 2009, Normand Fisher wrote: *>* > Hi Mike, *>* > *>* > I have an old 861C (and a 874A) which are very noisy and trigger off *>* > after a short period under load. Would you, by chance, have a copy of *>* > the schematics? *>* > *>* > Or matter of fact any knowledge as to the cause of noise(old capacitors? *>* > ...). *>* *>* Your best bet wouls be to post to Classiccmp Classiccmp mailing list at *>* cctalk at classiccmp.org. * The DEC power cotnrollers are _very_ simple inside, and you don't really need tjhe printsets to repair them. I am not sure I understand the fault description. In particular, what sort of noise (hum, chattering relay?). And what do you mean by 'trigger off'. Do you mean the contactor drops out, or the breaker trips, or what? Let me know exactly what happens and I might be able to help. -tony From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 14:10:20 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 15:10:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT-PC Gone! Message-ID: Thanks to all who contacted me. The RT-PC has been taken. Steve -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 14:49:31 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:49:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <284586.73474.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> could you please be more specific --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Joost van de Griek wrote: > From: Joost van de Griek > > likely there are other worthy additions to this list. > > > Philips :Yes From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 14:55:15 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <619179.76169.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> and how could I forget the Northstar Dimension. Oi. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 15:00:33 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:00:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B372D36.19711.1D26D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <952971.5577.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Were there any PC accelerator cards made with the > 186?? I believe > there may have been. yep. Orchid PC Turbo 186. I think I have 3. Not sure about working s/w. A bud has been pining for valid s/w for the thing. I may have to write my own LOL. the Infoworld article on it: http://books.google.com/books?id=2i4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=orchid+turbo+186&source=bl&ots=GkabZiLT_X&sig=bauTFRn2eYkh_ZcjT9TGFXb65b4&hl=en&ei=G8o3S4eNJMu6lAebna2eBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=orchid%20turbo%20186&f=false and the patent it was awarded: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4799150.html From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 18:05:02 2009 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:05:02 -0500 Subject: FS: 8" IBM Diskettes - quantity 40 Spring Hill FL Message-ID: <640342.13776.qm@smtp110.prem.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> 8" (eight inch) IBM Diskettes - quantity 40 Some blank, some with software $12 + shipping for all Paypal preferred, cash, check or money order From jws at jwsss.com Sun Dec 27 18:13:59 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:13:59 -0800 Subject: Two I think punch card storage cabinets on OC CL In-Reply-To: <4B2F178B.3050300@socal.rr.com> References: <4B2F178B.3050300@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B37F847.8080001@jwsss.com> We retrieved these yesterday. The seller also has a 5' or so IBM unit he is keeping for his toolchest use. Thanks Mike for the spot. Jim Mike Ford wrote: > I saw this on the Orange county (Calif) Craigslist, passing it along > in case somebody needs some punched card storage, if thats what it > actually is. Not much I can do to help anybody with it, no way to move > it or place to store it, but if I can assist, email me directly. From lausadel at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 19:02:35 2009 From: lausadel at gmail.com (Del Lausa) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:02:35 -0800 Subject: Help restoring early issues of Mark-8 Newsletter Message-ID: <4623eb0e0912271702y4e5a5e6nb9948e576201bb3a@mail.gmail.com> Hi. Just wondering if you ever figured out how to chemically lift images from faded dittos. I have the same problem with a personal document that you did with the Mark-8 Newsletter. Thanks. --Dawn Lausa From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 03:13:32 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 10:13:32 +0100 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <284586.73474.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com> <284586.73474.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <766444380912280113s4a1258casdb680f0c4c0a9e32@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/27 Chris M : > --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> Philips :Yes > > could you please be more specific Not really, since I only ever remember reading one article about the thing, and then later that it pretty much flopped. But maybe this'll help: . It's a stub, but there's two links to collectors, there. .tsooJ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 07:53:18 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:53:18 -0600 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B38B84E.9000800@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Do you know anything about the Philips machines? > > As I mentioned in another message, Jules gave me some kind of Philips > multi-user box. A number of boards each with 2 serial ports (IIRC), some > with Z80As on them , others with 80188s. A large PSU (which I must get > round to repairing) with lead-acid battery backup And what seems to be a > SCSI interface to the disk system and a space for a QIC tape drive. Yep. It's a P3800, running TurboDOS (or it would, if it worked ;) I saw some claim on the web a few years back that it'd support up to 62 terminals (although whether that machine I gave you has enough guts to do that with appropriate cables / breakout boxes, I'm not sure) Seeing if you can get some sense out of the hard disk is perhaps the best route as without that the machine's never going to do anything :-( I can't remember if the bus is SCSI or SASI now, but there's a bridge board to the ST506/412 drive - theoretically it could be driven from another system and the 'raw' contents read off (but potentially with some intelligent guessing of drive parameters if the bridge doesn't pre-initialise) cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 28 09:33:30 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:33:30 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <766444380912280113s4a1258casdb680f0c4c0a9e32@mail.gmail.com> References: <610622DB-B8F2-44EF-BEAE-563EE213709B@gmail.com>, <284586.73474.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <766444380912280113s4a1258casdb680f0c4c0a9e32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi I have several STD bus boards with the 80C186 on them. These boards even have the rarer 80C187s. There was at least one modem ( I think US Robotics ) that used a 188/186. This I know because I'd written a Forth for a box, that I had that was part of a transponder, and another fellow blew that Forth onto an EPROM and it worked on the modem he had. I'd also put the Forth onto a development board from AMD that had a 80188 on it. I used the chips serial port on all of these. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 28 10:49:25 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:49:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT-PC Gone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Thanks to all who contacted me. The RT-PC has been taken. Thanks to the one who took it. I'm glad it didn't get scrapped. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Dec 28 11:13:53 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:13:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <654272854.4010091262020433070.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The HP 100LX/200LX/1000CX/OG700LX use the "Hornet" chip, which contains an 80C186 along with I/O, display and other modules. There is info on this chip (block diagram, pinout) at http://www.daniel-hertrich.de/en/knowledgebase/hplx/hornet ? Bob ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:07:23 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <200912280207.nBS27NxF017080 at floodgap.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Also add the HP 95LX palmtop, and possibly others in the LX line (I don't > > remember if they all do). They used a '186. > > IIRC the 95LX uses an 80C188. Actually, I was thinking of the HP 200LX, sorry. That *does* have a 80186 for sure. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ??Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them? -- Justice Gustine -------- ??? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 28 11:40:45 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:40:45 -0500 Subject: FS: 8" IBM Diskettes - quantity 40 Spring Hill FL In-Reply-To: <640342.13776.qm@smtp110.prem.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <640342.13776.qm@smtp110.prem.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46A870FA-922C-47FA-9481-BE1C20FE6E8E@neurotica.com> On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Gene Ehrich wrote: > 8" (eight inch) IBM Diskettes - quantity 40 > > Some blank, some with software $12 + shipping for all > > Paypal preferred, cash, check or money order Wait, there's another classiccmp geek in FL? Seriously?? So...what system is the software for? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 28 11:48:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:48:08 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <952971.5577.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4B372D36.19711.1D26D4@cclist.sydex.com>, <952971.5577.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B387ED8.25098.1058C0@cclist.sydex.com> Add to the list, late (1990's) Cipher 1/2" tape streamers. Kind of odd, really--a controller board with both a Z8002 handling the drive smarts and an 80c188 handling the SCSI interface. It would not surprise me if the '186 could also be found in some laser printers. I've found CPUs from the 68K family to the NS32016 in them. The great thing about the 186 was the 20-bit DMA controller, but only two channels of it. The 8089 IOP featured 20 bit DMA, but was a very different fish--fairly expensive and more involved to interface. One wonders why Intel, over the life of the ISA bus, never came out with a 24-bit version of the 8237. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 28 12:45:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:45:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C In-Reply-To: from "Normand Fisher" at Dec 27, 9 01:29:42 pm Message-ID: > > Old DEC Power Control 861C Hi, > > looks like I am not getting the posting in my e-mail but my messages do get > posted. This issue came up a few months back. Apparently gmail filters the replies to your own messages somewhere (and not to somewhere sensible!). Perhaps somebody else can rememebr the details. > > I found this replyto my previous message by Tony Duell > in > the archives. > > To follow-up, the 861C emits a crackling noise for the first few seconds (20 > or so) and then I can hear a relay chattering (very noisy!). > > Also the light on the front panel is flashing continuously (maybe that's > normal.) old DEC neons tend to flicker randomly (and it's truely random). The basic design is for the mains : Mains in--->filter --->Breaker-+--->Unswitched outs | +--->Contactor (big relay)-> Switched outs The contactor is controlled (in the 861) by a reed relay on the little PCB inside. This has a differentially-wound coil to give the 'ground for on' and 'ground for off' functionality on the 3 pin connector. The reed relay coil is powered by a little transformer/rectifier/capacitor circuit, mostly on the PCB. My first suspicioun is that capacitor. Open it up and look for any electrolytics on the PCB inside. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 28 12:52:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:52:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <766444380912271345n6b0cd7dal26021db44d29930a@mail.gmail.com> from "Joost van de Griek" at Dec 27, 9 10:45:22 pm Message-ID: > Well, apart from the aforementioned home computers, Philips wwere > active in many specialist markets, from medical equipment to > industrial and test equipment. I believe they made midrange to There is a proverb in England about grandmothers and sucking eggs :-) More seriously, my e-mail address and 'organisation' refer to a Philips P850, which is a 16 bit minicomputer (OK, thar particular model ahs an 8 bit ALU, but it appears to be 16 bits to the programmer) dating from 1970. I have several other machines in the range (P851, which uses Philips custom bitslice chips (SPALU == Scratch Pad and Arithmetic Logic Unit) , P854, which uses AMD2900 series chips and has an MMU, and what appears to be a P850-series single-chip processor, maybe a P853 CPU board). These machines are not common (to put it mildly!), but they do exist. > "biggish" iron office machinery, as well. But I do assume it was all > rather low volume stuff. I've got (somewhere) a Philips word processor system -- a large case containing a CRT display and a pair of 5.25" drives, with a CPU board (a pair of Z80s IIRC) at the back and a separate keyboard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 28 12:39:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:39:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP91xx controllers (was HP-IB disc drive emulation program In-Reply-To: <4B34E657.8040705@garlic.com> from "jd" at Dec 25, 9 08:20:39 am Message-ID: > And I seem to recall something GPIB from other sources, like > Fairchild, AMD and NatSemi, as well. The common HPIB/GPIB chips were the Texas Instruments TMS9914, the Intel 8291 and the NEC uPD7210. I've come across all of them. There was a Motorola 68488 (what an obvious number!) which IIRC was a talker/listener (no controller functions) designed to link to the 6800 bus. HP had their own Medusa chip (1TL1 IIRC).. And Philips made (or second-sources) a curious deveice in the 4000-series CMOS family that was essentially the state machines and random logic for a talker/listener, and was designed to add a GPIB interface to just about any digital instrument. I forget the number of that one, I have a data sheet somewhere but have never seen the actuall device. Doubtless other manufactuerers made GPIB interface chips, not to mention all the solutions using TTL logic chips (HP, Epson and several others like that have passed my bench) and custom chips. > > >=20 > >>> I still think it would be a useful project for somebody to make a=3D2= > 0 > >>> HP-drive-emulator. Mot using a PC, but using a microntroller, HPIB=3D= > 20 > >>> buffers, the minimal (if any) logic you need to handle HPIB, and a CF= > =3D20 > >>> card. Make it 'open' and I'll build several... > >> > >> Or even a SATA, PATA, USB storage interface. Such a stand alone > >> emulator would be very useful. > >=20 > > If the design is 'open', then presumaly you could mofify it for whateve= > r=20 > > storage device you want. And surely it would be better to have a workin= > g=20 > > desing for _any_ modern-ish storage device rather than debate about whi= > ch=20 > > device to use. > >=20 > > I was suggesting a bit more along the lines of "It would be nice if a > developer wouldn't focus solely on one type of storage but rather Agreed. But I suspect the 'storage' side of things is the easy part, and thus it would be easy to modify the design (assuming sufficient documetnation) for just about any storage device. [...] > > If this is a 9133XV with the HP controllers (6809 + 9114, etc), then I=20 > > have unofficial scheamtics. The floppy controller is actually quite=20 > > simple -- most of the logic is on the top board, the lower board contai= > ns=20 > > the master clock and disk data separator. Apart from the EPROM (which i= > s=20 > > the sama as in a 9121 IIRC), there's nothing remotely custom in there. > >=20 > > It has the separate HP HD and FD controller boards. It appears to work > normally except that it is unable to read any floppies. Changing the DOes the floppy controller respond to HPIB commands? I assume it does from what you say, which implies the processor is running > drive did not change anything about that. Beyond that, no idea, > although it may be the data separator board. One Of These Days, I'll > dig it up, thaw it and see what else I can find. IIRC there's one power line (a -ve one) which is used by the data separator and nothing else. On soem even older designs this came from a diode/capacitor voltage multiplier driven from the master clock. I think by the time of the 9133V, it came from the main SMPSU. It's still worth checking it. Then see what the read clock and read data pins on the FDC (a 1793-a-like IIRC) are doing. It's a pretty simple design, actually. -tony From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Dec 28 14:10:50 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:10:50 -0800 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) Message-ID: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I snagged that Vitek Systems machine that was being discussed earlier this month and now that I'm back from my holiday travels I have some time to play with it. It's a 68010 machine with 2mb of memory and 2 40mb scsi drives. Hooked up a terminal to TT0 and it booted up to a login prompt, much to my amazement. The login banner says: VITEK Nerve Center II Copyright (c) 1992 by bioMerieux Vitek Inc. So I guess that gives a bit more detail on what this machine is. Clearly a system used in some sort of medical application, and bioMerieux appears to still be in business, though I can't find any info on this particular machine on their site. It appears to be running an early UNIX variant called Regulus (5.2.2, dated 7/31/86) by a company called Alcyon. I can't find much more information on the 'net other than the fact that it existed. Anyone know anything about this version of UNIX? Any idea what filesystem it used? I know none of the usernames/passwords, so either a backdoor or some way to access the filesystem would be handy... I'm going to be dumping an image of the drives this evening, before something catastrophic happens to them... Thanks, Josh From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 28 14:18:24 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:18:24 +0100 Subject: Dec paddle board needed Message-ID: <87ab3f05fe1da96473fead7499bfef70.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello All, Everyone recovered from X-Mas yet :) Maybe one of you can help me, I need an M908 paddle board. Let me know off list and maybe we can come to an agreement. Thanks, Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 28 14:19:49 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:19:49 -0800 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> On 12/28/09 12:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > It appears to be running an early UNIX variant called Regulus (5.2.2, > dated 7/31/86) by a company called Alcyon. I can't find much more > information on the 'net other than the fact that it existed. It is a UNIX clone. Alcyon is also known for producing the C compiler used in developing CP/M 68K. I'll check the CHM archives. Another listmember sent some Alcyon software, but I've not had time to look at it. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 28 14:28:50 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:28:50 -0800 Subject: Dec paddle board needed In-Reply-To: <87ab3f05fe1da96473fead7499bfef70.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <87ab3f05fe1da96473fead7499bfef70.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2009, at 12:18 PM, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello All, > > Everyone recovered from X-Mas yet :) > > Maybe one of you can help me, I need an M908 paddle board. > Let me know off list and maybe we can come to an agreement. While the number is familiar, what is it for? TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 28 21:39:17 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:39:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: GopherVR Message-ID: <200912290339.nBT3dHDu015526@floodgap.com> For those who remember GopherVR, this will need no introduction; it is a virtual reality interface to Gopherspace. I have managed to get it working again on Mac OS X, and it should build other places. There is a long way to go, but it is now stable and does work even though it is still not finished. A pre-built binary is available for Mac OS X 10.4+, and source for everyone else. http://www.floodgap.com/software/gophervr/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Eight tries. The number is ... seven." ------------------------------------ From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 22:53:35 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 05:53:35 +0100 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: <766444380912271345n6b0cd7dal26021db44d29930a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <766444380912282053y7134319dvb00841b76841e250@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/28 Tony Duell : > More seriously, my e-mail address and 'organisation' refer to a Philips > P850, which is a 16 bit minicomputer (OK, thar particular model ahs an 8 > bit ALU, but it appears to be 16 bits to the programmer) dating from > 1970. I have several other machines in the range (P851, which uses > Philips custom bitslice chips (SPALU == Scratch Pad and Arithmetic Logic > Unit) , P854, which uses AMD2900 series chips and has an MMU, and what > appears to be a P850-series single-chip processor, maybe a P853 CPU > board). > > These machines are not common (to put it mildly!), but they do exist. I shot an email to my uncle who's worked at Philips for decades, maybe he knows things about the rarer Philips computer stuff. Or maybe he has connections to people who know things that deserve to be preserved. > I've got (somewhere) a Philips word processor system -- a large case > containing a CRT display and a pair of 5.25" drives, with a CPU board (a > pair of Z80s IIRC) at the back and a separate keyboard. Early model Philips VideoWriter? The ones with a 3.5" drive were fairly common in the mid-'80's. .tsooJ From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 00:22:22 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 01:22:22 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? Message-ID: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 28 10:53:52 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:53:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <70896.45515.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 12/28/09, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > > I have several STD bus boards with the 80C186 on them. could you please provide more details > These boards even have the rarer 80C187s. Did Intel actually make a '187? I heard some German company made them. That's all I ever heard. > There was at least one modem ( I think US Robotics ) > > that used a 188/186. This I know because I'd written > > a Forth for a box, Now that I don't believe. Dwight wrote a FORTH. COME ON! that I had that was part of a > transponder, > > and another fellow blew that Forth onto an EPROM and > > it worked on the modem he had. > > I'd also put the Forth onto a development board from > > AMD that had a 80188 on it. I'll be your best friend if you give some details on that too :) I used the chips serial > > port on all of these. > > Dwight > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail > Free. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Dec 29 02:35:23 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 00:35:23 -0800 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> References: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/28/09 12:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> It appears to be running an early UNIX variant called Regulus (5.2.2, >> dated 7/31/86) by a company called Alcyon. I can't find much more >> information on the 'net other than the fact that it existed. > > It is a UNIX clone. Alcyon is also known for producing the C compiler > used in developing CP/M 68K. I'll check the CHM archives. Another > listmember > sent some Alcyon software, but I've not had time to look at it. > Cool, let me know if you do find anything related... I've imaged the two drives, they're up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/vitek. Just in the nick of time too, drive 0 started flaking out this evening and now fails to come ready most of the time. They're both Quantum ProDrive 40S drives. Still no idea if it uses a standard early UNIX filesystem or not, but I'm going to spend some time with the images and see what I can figure out. It's odd that a machine with hardware dated from 1990-91 is built around a 68010/68541... Josh From spedraja at ono.com Tue Dec 29 04:32:20 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:32:20 +0100 Subject: IBM (Federal Systems Division) FSC Documents, and IBM GC20 documents Message-ID: Hello. I am searching for some documents from IBM Federal Systems Division, particularly the related with the Systems Software Development (FSC-71-5108 et.al). In the other hand, Bitsavers contains some valuable documents in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/generalInfo/ related with Software Engineering, but I should like to know if this set can be expanded in a future with some other interesting documents released by IBM in the 60/70 and early 80s (HIPO diagrams and so). I have some programmed courses about the matter from this epoch (which I saved from the dumpster) but in Spanish. Regards Sergio From shrlkhms at comcast.net Tue Dec 29 03:24:09 2009 From: shrlkhms at comcast.net (SHRLKHMS) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 01:24:09 -0800 Subject: DDC BUS-65517 1553 card Message-ID: <000001ca8868$ae598880$0b0c9980$@net> Do you still have these 3 cards (65517)? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 29 08:22:08 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:22:08 +0000 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > I've imaged the two drives, they're up at > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/vitek. Just in the nick of time > too, drive 0 started flaking out this evening and now fails to come > ready most of the time. I've had a quick play with strings and ghex2 and I think I've come up with the password file for that machine: root:QvAAlS1A:0:0:/:/bin/sh irb1::1:3:/usr/ams/r1:/bin/irbtsh irb2::2:3:/usr/ams/r2:/bin/irbtsh arp:1vrorYSd:11:3:/usr:/bin/sh ams::12:3:/usr/ams:/bin/sh bactec::13:3:/usr/bactec:/bin/sh bacrd1::3:3:/usr/bactec:/bin/sh ims::14:3:/usr/ims/bin:/bin/sh vid::15:3:/usr/msd:/bin/sh vidas1::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh vidas2::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh vidas3::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh vidas4::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh bps::20:3:/usr/bps:/bin/sh show::94:3:/demo:/demo/bin/bsh demo::95:3:/demo:/demo/bin/bsh auto::99:3:/demo:/demo/bin/bsh I'd be tempted to try logging in as 'bps' or 'demo'; that might get you a shell (though those accounts look like they might be disabled). As for the root password, that's too short to be a DES hash. I don't know of any UNIX system that stored passwords unencrypted in /etc/passwd, nor can I find any evidence of a password hashing algorithm that produced an 8-byte base64 hash. There's also some evidence of a "password recovery" mode in the disk0 image. How to get into that mode is not explained... > They're both Quantum ProDrive 40S drives. Interestingly the two disc images carry the text "Miniscribe 8051p" and "Miniscribe 8051d" in the first few bytes. I wonder if the machine originally came with drives of that type, which were later 'dd' copied from one to the other. Hmm... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 29 09:26:31 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:26:31 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3A1FA7.1030402@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: > > Here's the pinout : > > Gnd --o o-- Gnd > +18V --o o-- +18V > +5V --o o-- Gnd > Gnd --o o-- Gnd > Rst --o o-- Gnd > VSync --o o-- Gnd > HSync --o o-- Gnd > DotCLk --o o-- Gnd > DotsA --o o-- Gnd > DotsB --o o-- Gnd > > Thanks for the pinout Tony, it confirmed my feeling that it was the display unit itself that was faulty. The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was also correct. > And I didn't try to draw out the display module itself. It seemed to be > all custom stuff. There is what appears to be an HV PSU on the display > module PCB that it probably repairable -- I can try to figure it out if > you think that's the problem. > This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation converter, used to power some logic that is required on the far end of high voltage required for the display. A shorted rectifier diode on the secondary side was the problem. Rik's suggestion did of course not help in this case, but i have seen similar behavior to what he describes in a Compaq Portable III. Part of the display was dark, and as the display warms up more and more of the display became visible, over the course of a couple of hours. Alas it was just a precursor for a total failure of the Compaq's display later on. I would still be interested in any schematic of the driver electronics of any Epson electroluminiscent display. Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 29 09:26:27 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:26:27 -0800 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B3A1FA3.8000501@bitsavers.org> On 12/29/09 6:22 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I've had a quick play with strings and ghex2 and I think I've come up > with the password file for that machine: > > root:QvAAlS1A:0:0:/:/bin/sh go in with a hex editor, and change it to root::0:0:/:/bin/sh preferably on a cloned image. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 29 11:51:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:51:45 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B39D131.13935.3849AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2009 at 1:22, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? No, but was it "ADAM" or "Adam" (the former implying an acrynym)? --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Dec 29 12:06:15 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:06:15 -0500 Subject: Dec paddle board needed Message-ID: Guy writes: > On Dec 28, 2009, at 12:18 PM, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Maybe one of you can help me, I need an M908 paddle board. > While the number is familiar, what is it for? TU11 to TU56 cable (and possibly other things too). Tim. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Dec 29 12:20:11 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:20:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.techtite.com/Features/Adam.html FYI : The unit was called "Adam" because Coleco hoped it would take a "bite" out of Apple (computers). Oh well; it was a cute idea... --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: Coleco Adam name? > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 1:22 AM > Anyone know the background / meaning > of Coleco's "Adam" name? > From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 12:38:49 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:38:49 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > FYI : The unit was called "Adam" because Coleco hoped it would take a "bite" out of Apple (computers). Oh well; it was a cute idea... Maybe it would have had they not put the power supply in the printer. I can't imagine an engineer ever thinking that was a good idea. Sounds like a cost-cutting move forced on the engineers by marketing. Is a power brick really so bad? You could even daisy-chain the devices together and run them off of one power brick if you had to. Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or was it on?). brian From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 29 12:40:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:40:54 -0800 Subject: Convergent/Unisys B38. Power supply needed In-Reply-To: <122720091839.11310.4B37A9D1000D0EE100002C2E22230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <122720091839.11310.4B37A9D1000D0EE100002C2E22230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <4B3A4D36.5030101@bitsavers.org> On 12/27/09 10:39 AM, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Sorry Al, No manuals or software. Just reminded me I need > External Power Supplies > > Does any ine have the external power supplies for the B38. > These where large "floor warts" > It seems like there are a bunch of 36v switchers available on eBay. I've found a few of the bricks, but none of the not-quite standard modular cables. You're probably better off just cutting off the cable and tacking two wires in its place. The power is bussed across the backplane, so you could probably get by running a cpu and disk from a single 9A switcher. From what I've read in old NGEN mail, the little Aztec switchable 5/12v modules inside weren't very reliable either. You can't just get rid of the 36v, though, since that's what powers the monitor. I a copy of the patent for the NGEN power supply system (453073) is on bitsavers. Also found a few other useful ones, like how the X-Bus and SCSI bus work. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Dec 29 13:06:16 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:06:16 -0800 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> I've imaged the two drives, they're up at >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/vitek. Just in the nick of time >> too, drive 0 started flaking out this evening and now fails to come >> ready most of the time. > > I've had a quick play with strings and ghex2 and I think I've come up > with the password file for that machine: > > root:QvAAlS1A:0:0:/:/bin/sh > irb1::1:3:/usr/ams/r1:/bin/irbtsh > irb2::2:3:/usr/ams/r2:/bin/irbtsh > arp:1vrorYSd:11:3:/usr:/bin/sh > ams::12:3:/usr/ams:/bin/sh > bactec::13:3:/usr/bactec:/bin/sh > bacrd1::3:3:/usr/bactec:/bin/sh > ims::14:3:/usr/ims/bin:/bin/sh > vid::15:3:/usr/msd:/bin/sh > vidas1::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh > vidas2::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh > vidas3::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh > vidas4::15:3:/usr/msd/bin:/bin/sh > bps::20:3:/usr/bps:/bin/sh > show::94:3:/demo:/demo/bin/bsh > demo::95:3:/demo:/demo/bin/bsh > auto::99:3:/demo:/demo/bin/bsh > > I'd be tempted to try logging in as 'bps' or 'demo'; that might get > you a shell (though those accounts look like they might be disabled). > As for the root password, that's too short to be a DES hash. I don't > know of any UNIX system that stored passwords unencrypted in > /etc/passwd, nor can I find any evidence of a password hashing > algorithm that produced an 8-byte base64 hash. "bps" does work; embarrassingly enough the terminal that came with the Vitek system (A Tektronix 4205, fun!) is affixed with a label that says "login: bps." I just hadn't taken the time to unpack the terminal until late last night (well, early this morning). Silly me :). Definitely an odd hash for the root password, if I can figure out how to start the machine in single-user mode it'd be trivial to reset it, otherwise I'll probably do as Al suggested and hack the disk image. Maybe if I reset the machine without syncing the disks, fsck will fail on the next boot and drop me into single user mode ;). (Gotta love the reliability of old UNIX filesystems...) Now I just need to find a compatible drive to replace the dying one... > > There's also some evidence of a "password recovery" mode in the disk0 > image. How to get into that mode is not explained... > > > They're both Quantum ProDrive 40S drives. > > Interestingly the two disc images carry the text "Miniscribe 8051p" > and "Miniscribe 8051d" in the first few bytes. I wonder if the machine > originally came with drives of that type, which were later 'dd' copied > from one to the other. Seems fairly likely. Either that or Regulus' disklabel tool only knows about/supports a small subset of known drives (much like my 3B2, which is no end of fun finding compatible drives for...) Thanks, Josh From drb at msu.edu Tue Dec 29 13:51:20 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:51:20 -0500 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:06:16 PST.) <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200912291951.nBTJpKNB001508@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > root:QvAAlS1A:0:0:/:/bin/sh > Definitely an odd hash for the root password, if I can figure out how > to start the machine in single-user mode it'd be trivial to reset it, > otherwise I'll probably do as Al suggested and hack the disk image. > Maybe if I reset the machine without syncing the disks, fsck will > fail on the next boot and drop me into single user mode ;). (Gotta > love the reliability of old UNIX filesystems...) Original Bell unix stored unencrypted passwords. The first hashed password storage used the M-209 rotor machine emulation which already existed in unix somewhere. As with the DES hash which came shortly after, the M-209 setup used the password as the key and encrypted a fixed data pattern. I don't know if the M-209 variant salted. Last I checked, the DES version used a block of zeros as the data, dunno yet about M-209. Haven't gotten as far as tuhs to see if I can find the old crypt yet. De From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 29 14:43:08 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Dec 29, 9 12:38:49 pm" Message-ID: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> > Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes > when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or > was it on?). On, IIRC. It caused such a surge that the tape would be partially erased. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computer geeks don't byte; we just nybble. --------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 14:22:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:22:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <766444380912282053y7134319dvb00841b76841e250@mail.gmail.com> from "Joost van de Griek" at Dec 29, 9 05:53:35 am Message-ID: > > 2009/12/28 Tony Duell : > > > More seriously, my e-mail address and 'organisation' refer to a Philips > > P850, which is a 16 bit minicomputer (OK, thar particular model ahs an 8 > > bit ALU, but it appears to be 16 bits to the programmer) dating from > > 1970. I have several other machines in the range (P851, which uses > > Philips custom bitslice chips (SPALU == Scratch Pad and Arithmetic Logic > > Unit) , P854, which uses AMD2900 series chips and has an MMU, and what > > appears to be a P850-series single-chip processor, maybe a P853 CPU > > board). > > > > These machines are not common (to put it mildly!), but they do exist. > > I shot an email to my uncle who's worked at Philips for decades, maybe > he knows things about the rarer Philips computer stuff. Or maybe he > has connections to people who know things that deserve to be > preserved. FWIW, I have a fair number of manuals (including techncial manauls/schematics) for the P800 stuff. Alas my P854 manual is a 'preliminary' with no microcode sources :-(. Oh well... > > > I've got (somewhere) a Philips word processor system -- a large case > > containing a CRT display and a pair of 5.25" drives, with a CPU board (a > > pair of Z80s IIRC) at the back and a separate keyboard. > > Early model Philips VideoWriter? The ones with a 3.5" drive were > fairly common in the mid-'80's. IIRC this machine claims to be a P5200. I found it in a charity shop in Cheltenham (odd, because chartiy shops in the UK don't normally sell mains-pwered stuff due to totally stupid regulations). IIRC there was also a Philips printer in the shop, but I couldn't carry everything. Carrying the P5200 with the keyvboard in my coat pocket (I am not joking) was something I don't want to have to do too often... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 14:42:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:42:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <4B3A1FA7.1030402@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 29, 9 04:26:31 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Here's the pinout : > > > > Gnd --o o-- Gnd > > +18V --o o-- +18V > > +5V --o o-- Gnd > > Gnd --o o-- Gnd > > Rst --o o-- Gnd > > VSync --o o-- Gnd > > HSync --o o-- Gnd > > DotCLk --o o-- Gnd > > DotsA --o o-- Gnd > > DotsB --o o-- Gnd > > > > > > Thanks for the pinout Tony, it confirmed my feeling that it was the > display unit itself that was faulty. I assume you mean that the power rails were fine, and there were sensible waveforms on the other pins. > The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was > also correct. Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself? > > And I didn't try to draw out the display module itself. It seemed to be > > all custom stuff. There is what appears to be an HV PSU on the display > > module PCB that it probably repairable -- I can try to figure it out if > > you think that's the problem. > > > This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation converter, used > to power some logic that is required on the far end of high voltage Where does it get the HV from? It must be generated on the display board itself. > required for the display. A shorted rectifier diode on the secondary > side was the problem. At least it was something you could repair, and not one of the custom ICs. > I would still be interested in any schematic of the driver electronics > of any Epson electroluminiscent display. So would I. If I had some clues as to what I was looking at, I'd be prepared to take one of my IPCs apart again and see how much of the display I could figure out. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Dec 29 14:47:52 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:47:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> References: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes >> when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or >> was it on?). > > On, IIRC. It caused such a surge that the tape would be partially erased. Has anyone come up with a substitute power supply for these things so you don't need to have the printer hanging around? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 15:01:10 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:01:10 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3A6E16.5020905@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes > when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or > was it on?). It's if you tried to eject the tape with it running. Because it didn't stop the high speed cassette before ejecting it, and it didn't have an eject interlock mechanism. Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 15:08:06 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:08:06 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912291308g220e604av1270021cc0d90b00@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:47 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Has anyone come up with a substitute power supply for these things so you > don't need to have the printer hanging around? Good point. How hard could it be? The wikipedia page for the adam has some links at the bottom to users groups. They probably have the info for that. You could probably hack together a cable to hook it up to a different printer while drawing power from an old atx power supply or something. The interface is probably a regular old serial or parallel interface, just with a proprietary cable. I doubt coleco made their own printers. I bet there's a fix for the tape drive problem as well. Did they ever make a floppy drive for the adam or did it die too quickly? I had a colecovision as a kid and played it a lot. When the adam came out, I desperately wanted one, but my parents couldn't separate the idea of a home computer from the idea of a video game console. Any computer was just something (expensive) for me to play games on, so they refused to buy one. They eventually bought a 5150 used since that was a *real* computer. And they could use it for work (I don't think they ever attempted to use it). I worked for a year and a half making minimum wage to save up enough for an amiga 500. I asked them to chip in some money for a 2000. They refused because the amiga was obviously only for games. Of course, I learned C and 68000 assembly language on that machine as well as writing countless papers. Sometimes I think I got my computer science degree in spite of my parents. Can you tell I'm bitter. ;-) brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 15:09:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:09:35 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A6E16.5020905@gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> <4B3A6E16.5020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912291309x5899f147m53f3aaa2498adccd@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It's if you tried to eject the tape with it running. ?Because it didn't stop > the high speed cassette before ejecting it, and it didn't have an eject > interlock mechanism. I'm pretty sure I was thinking about the power surge thing. Although it could have easily had the problem you describe also. brian From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 15:24:25 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:24:25 +0000 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> While we're on the subject of 80186s I discovered some odd (well undocumented) behavior whilst experementing on my RM Nimbus (as I'm writing a MESS driver). If I load a value into AX, and then do an out instruction with AL, the whole of AX seems to still appear on the data bus, something like: MOV AX,055AAh OUT 022,AL It looks like to me that the whole of AX is actually getting put out, and that the /BHE ine is set to signify only the bottom 8 bits are valid. The Nimbus video controller seems to ignore /BHE and treat the data bus as always 16 bits wide. Is this known undocumented behavior ? I seem to remember that the Z80 has a similar undocumented behavior with the addressing of it's in and out instructions also. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 29 16:20:43 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:20:43 +0000 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <200912291951.nBTJpKNB001508@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> <200912291951.nBTJpKNB001508@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3A80BB.10604@philpem.me.uk> Dennis Boone wrote: > Original Bell unix stored unencrypted passwords. The first hashed > password storage used the M-209 rotor machine emulation which already > existed in unix somewhere. As with the DES hash which came shortly > after, the M-209 setup used the password as the key and encrypted a > fixed data pattern. I don't know if the M-209 variant salted. IIRC it didn't. This would explain why John The Ripper spat out the hash as invalid... > Last I > checked, the DES version used a block of zeros as the data, dunno yet > about M-209. I haven't managed to find a C implementation of the M209 cipher. Apparently DES was introduced around 1976, so anything older than that should include an implementation. I've raided Google Code Search and TUHS and come up with... --- DES algorithm, in C --- the source to crypt(3) from 7th Edition Unix: http://google.com/codesearch/p#118goTAkg2o/usr/src/libc/gen/crypt.c And passwd.c from the same: http://google.com/codesearch/p#miRTe8ZyR0o/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Henry_Spencer_v7/v7.tar.gz|118goTAkg2o/usr/src/cmd/passwd.c&d=8 --- M209 rotor algorithm? --- This is passwd from V6: http://google.com/codesearch/p#miRTe8ZyR0o/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/usr.v6.tar.gz|SRrRNuoDyqU/s2/passwd.c&d=3 And the password encoding function, in PDP11 assembler by the looks of things: http://google.com/codesearch/p#miRTe8ZyR0o/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/usr.v6.tar.gz|SRrRNuoDyqU/s3/crypt.s&d=3 Any PDP11 experts want to convert that into C? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 29 16:31:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:31:44 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: , <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B3A12D0.27554.138A1B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2009 at 21:24, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > If I load a value into AX, and then do an out instruction with AL, the > whole of AX seems to still appear on the data bus, something like: I don't know if it's documented, but it doesn't surprise me and strikes me as an eninently sensible way to implement a byte output instruction. Does the 8086 do this? > Is this known undocumented behavior ? I seem to remember that the Z80 > has a similar undocumented behavior with the addressing of it's in and > out instructions also. The Z80 behavior of the IN x,(C) and OUT (C),x and their variants (e.g. OTIR) are documented and put the contents of the register pair (BC) on the address bus. The immediate-port I/O instructions (IN A,nn and OUT nn,A put the contents of A on the high-order 8 bits of the address bus--not quite as useful--but worth knowing if you're going to use the 16-bit I/O address space "feature") -Chuck . From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Dec 29 16:46:06 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:46:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:24:25 +0000 > From: Phill Harvey-Smith > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) > > While we're on the subject of 80186s I discovered some odd (well > undocumented) behavior whilst experementing on my RM Nimbus (as I'm writing a > MESS driver). > > If I load a value into AX, and then do an out instruction with AL, the whole > of AX seems to still appear on the data bus, something like: > > MOV AX,055AAh > OUT 022,AL > > It looks like to me that the whole of AX is actually getting put out, and > that the /BHE ine is set to signify only the bottom 8 bits are valid. The > Nimbus video controller seems to ignore /BHE and treat the data bus as always > 16 bits wide. > > Is this known undocumented behavior ? I seem to remember that the Z80 has a > similar undocumented behavior with the addressing of it's in and out > instructions also. Seems like the simplest thing to do (what _should_ the upper data bits be on a byte write?) Anything else (all zeros, ones, duplicated low half, floated, etc) probably requires more hardware. There must be 100s of such examples of the hardware showing through when you look at things that are "dont-care" in the processor specification like the high order data bus on a byte write. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > > -- > Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! > > "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From drb at msu.edu Tue Dec 29 17:04:59 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:04:59 -0500 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:20:43 GMT.) <4B3A80BB.10604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B3A80BB.10604@philpem.me.uk> <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> <200912291951.nBTJpKNB001508@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200912292304.nBTN4xTr012756@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > fixed data pattern. I don't know if the M-209 variant salted. > IIRC it didn't. Having wasted (spent?) much of the afternoon toying with this, no, it did not. > > Last I > > checked, the DES version used a block of zeros as the data, dunno yet > > about M-209. The crypt(3) code appears to allocate a bss block, so I'm going with the block of zeros as likely. > I haven't managed to find a C implementation of the M209 cipher. > Apparently DES was introduced around 1976, so anything older than that > should include an implementation. V6 includes a crypt(1) implementation of the M209 in C, source is on TUHS. It's not yet clear to me yet how the crypt(3) assembler implementation translated the binary output of the (very similar looking) algorithm to printable text. I'm still staring at the assembler code. Evidently I don't speak PDP-11 very well today. De From drb at msu.edu Tue Dec 29 17:48:37 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:48:37 -0500 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:04:59 EST.) <200912292304.nBTN4xTr012756@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200912292304.nBTN4xTr012756@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4B3A80BB.10604@philpem.me.uk> <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> <200912291951.nBTJpKNB001508@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200912292348.nBTNmbE0015173@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > It's not yet clear to me yet how the crypt(3) assembler implementation > translated the binary output of the (very similar looking) algorithm to > printable text. I'm still staring at the assembler code. Evidently I > don't speak PDP-11 very well today. Ok, finally got my lame brain to work. After doing the rotor-cage-link crap, the password crypter takes modulus-62 of each byte of the cryptext and base-62 encodes that remainder using the set 0-9A-Za-z. If I'm ambitious (hah!) tonight, maybe I'll see about hacking that into the crypt(1) implementation and testing it. De From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 29 18:17:19 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:17:19 +0000 Subject: Vitek & Alcyon Regulus info (early 68k UNIX) In-Reply-To: <200912292348.nBTNmbE0015173@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200912292304.nBTN4xTr012756@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4B3A80BB.10604@philpem.me.uk> <4B3A5328.4030106@mail.msu.edu> <4B3910CA.2070908@mail.msu.edu> <4B3912E5.4090701@bitsavers.org> <4B39BF4B.3050004@mail.msu.edu> <4B3A1090.705@philpem.me.uk> <200912291951.nBTJpKNB001508@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200912292348.nBTNmbE0015173@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B3A9C0F.3040006@philpem.me.uk> Dennis Boone wrote: > If I'm ambitious (hah!) tonight, maybe I'll see about hacking that into > the crypt(1) implementation and testing it. I'm trying to reimplement the PDP11 version of crypt(1) in C. Given that until ~30 minutes ago I didn't know a single thing about the PDP11 other than "it's big, heavy, and goes in an equipment rack", it might take a while. I've already un-learned everything I learned about x86 assembler. Thank $DEITY, I've been trying to purge that from my brain for YEARS.... :) And the more of this mess I convert, the more I want to buy a PDP11 (or build a clone) and play... 8^O -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 18:18:05 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:18:05 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> > Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? > Amazing. It took only three replies for my thread to get horribly off-topic vs. what I intended. Adam vs. ADAM -- that's what I am trying to find out! I am a stickler for correct grammar when I'm writing a formal document. In this case I have a reason to mentioning the computer in the book I'm writing. I know I've seen it in all capitals, but I suspect that's either clueless fandom or a Coleco marketing ploy. If I can find out whether the letters were an acronym, then I'll know whether to capitalize them. Even if the name was trademarked in call caps but didn't stand for anything, then fuck 'em, I'm going with "Adam" .... it's not my job to help anyone with their marketing. From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 18:20:10 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:20:10 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> > Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? > PS - I should have mentioned the "bite out of Apple" story in my first post. A million web sites claim that to be fact, but nobody ever cites PROOF .... it's always, "I heard," or "My friend's sister's brother worked at a Coleco reseller and he says" ..... the story is urban legend until someone can prove it or authoritatively state they were involved in the decision. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 18:22:15 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:22:15 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? >> > Amazing. It took only three replies for my thread to get horribly > off-topic vs. what I intended. > > Adam vs. ADAM -- that's what I am trying to find out! I am a stickler > for correct grammar when I'm writing a formal document. In this case I > have a reason to mentioning the computer in the book I'm writing. I know > I've seen it in all capitals, but I suspect that's either clueless > fandom or a Coleco marketing ploy. If I can find out whether the letters > were an acronym, then I'll know whether to capitalize them. Even if the > name was trademarked in call caps but didn't stand for anything, then > fuck 'em, I'm going with "Adam" .... it's not my job to help anyone with > their marketing. How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct way it should be written. Peace... Sridhar From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 18:37:53 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:37:53 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> > How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the > correct way it should be written. < OT: rant > If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or as close as I can get to it. < / OT: rant > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 29 18:41:51 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:41:51 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Contrary to popular opinion, I actually think this was a smart idea. Here's why: While it is true that if the printer PS dies, the computer isn't usable, putting the PS for the system in the printer actually simplified the wiring of the unit. It only required one AC connection for the whole thing, one wire going from the printer to the computer, and one wire to the keyboard. The whole system was designed with the idea of making things simple for non-techies to use. So, in that respect, I think it was a good idea. On Dec 29, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Christian Liendo > wrote: >> FYI : The unit was called "Adam" because Coleco hoped it would take a "bite" out of Apple (computers). Oh well; it was a cute idea... > > Maybe it would have had they not put the power supply in the printer. > I can't imagine an engineer ever thinking that was a good idea. > Sounds like a cost-cutting move forced on the engineers by marketing. > Is a power brick really so bad? You could even daisy-chain the > devices together and run them off of one power brick if you had to. > > Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes > when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or > was it on?). > > brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 29 18:43:35 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:43:35 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> References: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <35CE081F-9742-4494-A48C-3E14EEF8AD37@bellsouth.net> It wouldn't have taken much of a "surge" really to partially erase part of the data due to the heads always being in contact with the tape. On Dec 29, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes >> when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or >> was it on?). > > On, IIRC. It caused such a surge that the tape would be partially erased. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Computer geeks don't byte; we just nybble. --------------------------------- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 29 18:44:22 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:44:22 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: It's a simple wiring job. An AT power supply works nicely. On Dec 29, 2009, at 2:47 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Oh, then there was that thing about the tape drive wiping out tapes >>> when they were left in the drive when the power was switched off (or >>> was it on?). >> >> On, IIRC. It caused such a surge that the tape would be partially erased. > > Has anyone come up with a substitute power supply for these things so you don't need to have the printer hanging around? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 29 18:46:17 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:46:17 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20F05F81-DB16-4F69-8357-AA65450C5697@bellsouth.net> So why don't you do your own research if you feel so strongly about it? ;) I suggest the periodical references of your local library to get you started. On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct way it should be written. > > < OT: rant > If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or as close as I can get to it. < / OT: rant > From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 18:54:07 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:54:07 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <20F05F81-DB16-4F69-8357-AA65450C5697@bellsouth.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20F05F81-DB16-4F69-8357-AA65450C5697@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B3AA4AF.8020207@snarc.net> I assure you that I am. Asking vaguely here in cctalk is the start, not the end, of such a query. --------------------------------------------- > So why don't you do your own research if you feel so strongly about it? ;) I suggest the periodical references of your local library to get you started. > > On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> >>> How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct way it should be written. >>> >> < OT: rant> If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or as close as I can get to it.< / OT: rant> >> > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 18:58:45 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:58:45 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3AA5C5.2030802@snarc.net> > Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? > LOL .... Googled for some pictures just now and found Andy Molloy's exhibit from the VCF East 6 two months ago .... the one I'm in charge of .... doh. :) All I have to do is ask him what's in the original manuals and stuff. From menadeau at comcast.net Tue Dec 29 19:07:38 2009 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:07:38 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net><4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:37 PM Subject: Re: Coleco Adam name? > >> How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct >> way it should be written. > > < OT: rant > If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * > mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can > think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent > references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to any > company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a > business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps even > when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and in the > press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or as close > as I can get to it. < / OT: rant > The introductory ADAM press release and brochure show it all uppercase, but make no reference to the Apple story. Nor does it indicate that ADAM is an acronym. You might check the local papers of the time (would be the Hartford Courant) and the trade press for proof of the Apple angle. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:08:04 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:08:04 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: > How is it written on the machine's nameplate? ?AFAIC, that's the correct way > it should be written. Or see how it is written in the FCC database. -- Will From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 29 19:11:58 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:11:58 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AA4AF.8020207@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20F05F81-DB16-4F69-8357-AA65450C5697@bellsouth.net> <4B3AA4AF.8020207@snarc.net> Message-ID: I would suggest looking the Popular Science report from the CES where ADAM was introduced. I could be wrong, but I think it or Family Computing had a quote from one of the people manning the Coleco booth about it. I might have the magazine in a box somewhere. Anyway, the PopSci article is also interesting because there's a prerelease picture of the ADAM with cassette drives which are slot loaded like a car stereo. On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I assure you that I am. Asking vaguely here in cctalk is the start, not the end, of such a query. > > > --------------------------------------------- >> So why don't you do your own research if you feel so strongly about it? ;) I suggest the periodical references of your local library to get you started. >> >> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> >>> >>>> How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct way it should be written. >>>> >>> < OT: rant> If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or as close as I can get to it.< / OT: rant> >>> >> >> From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:54:34 2009 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:54:34 +1100 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4b3ab2dd.0e0bca0a.7906.7e33@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Wednesday, 30 December 2009 11:38 AM Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Coleco Adam name? > How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the > correct way it should be written. > < OT: rant > If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * > mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can > think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent > references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to > any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a > business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps > even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and > in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or > as close as I can get to it. < / OT: rant > Upper case on both the computer & the box it came in on mine. So it's ADAM not Adam. Lance Lyon landover at tpg.com.au http://www.ferriesofsydney.com http://www.commodore128.org From mkr at trs-80.org Tue Dec 29 20:19:41 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:19:41 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Anyone know the background / meaning of Coleco's "Adam" name? >> > PS - I should have mentioned the "bite out of Apple" story in my first > post. A million web sites claim that to be fact, but nobody ever cites > PROOF .... it's always, "I heard," or "My friend's sister's brother > worked at a Coleco reseller and he says" ..... the story is urban legend > until someone can prove it or authoritatively state they were involved > in the decision. I don't know if there was any truth behind the "bite out of Apple" story, but it was mentioned in news reports as early as 1985. As far as capitalization goes, any contemporary news articles I've seen in the magazines Byte, InfoWorld, Creative Computing, and 80 Micro always referred to it as the Adam. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From ats at offog.org Tue Dec 29 20:29:37 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 02:29:37 +0000 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: (Geoff Oltmans's message of "Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:41:51 -0600") References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Geoff Oltmans writes: > It only required one AC connection for the whole thing, one wire going > from the printer to the computer, and one wire to the keyboard. Which is perfectly reasonable -- but you can get the same effect by putting the shared PSU in the computer. The Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 used that approach: monitor with integrated CP/M machine, simple dot matrix printer powered from it, and a separate keyboard. This meant that you didn't need to connect the printer if you weren't going to use it, and third-party printer upgrades were fairly common. (To be fair, the PCW's printer was connected to the PCW with *two* cables -- data and power -- but I suspect that was just Amstrad's designers being their usual penny-pinching selves...) -- Adam Sampson From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 29 20:46:19 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:46:19 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380912291038q574b1fadh7d92a6eb4c82226b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BDD2820-5FCC-4491-A0F8-AB6A995BFF13@bellsouth.net> That's a fair point. It is a linear power supply so there may have been a size/weight/packaging issue as well. The PSU is actually fairly large in the printer... case and all measures about 5x7x2". I'm admittedly a bit of an ADAM apologist... it's my favorite computer from the early 80's. That said, I think that their power supply designs (not just in the printer) were cheap and not very robust. On Dec 29, 2009, at 8:29 PM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Geoff Oltmans writes: > >> It only required one AC connection for the whole thing, one wire going >> from the printer to the computer, and one wire to the keyboard. > > Which is perfectly reasonable -- but you can get the same effect by > putting the shared PSU in the computer. The Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 used > that approach: monitor with integrated CP/M machine, simple dot matrix > printer powered from it, and a separate keyboard. This meant that you > didn't need to connect the printer if you weren't going to use it, and > third-party printer upgrades were fairly common. > > (To be fair, the PCW's printer was connected to the PCW with *two* > cables -- data and power -- but I suspect that was just Amstrad's > designers being their usual penny-pinching selves...) > > -- > Adam Sampson From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 29 21:47:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:47:01 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net>, (Geoff Oltmans's message of "Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:41:51 -0600"), Message-ID: <4B3A5CB5.20698.25944DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2009 at 2:29, Adam Sampson wrote: > Which is perfectly reasonable -- but you can get the same effect by > putting the shared PSU in the computer. The Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 used > that approach: monitor with integrated CP/M machine, simple dot matrix > printer powered from it, and a separate keyboard. This meant that you > didn't need to connect the printer if you weren't going to use it, and > third-party printer upgrades were fairly common. The Joyce PSU is something like the early Mac ones--basically run off the flyback transformer for the CRT. Very, very little excess capacity--indeed, if you're printing, the display goes a bit wonky. It's not what I'd call a desirable setup. And Cthulhu help you if you accidentally overload or short a power supply output--there are a bunch of circuit protectors in TO-92 packages soldered onto the video board. I'd never seen one on this side of the Pond before, and it took awhile before I tumbled to what they were. I just replaced the blown ones with picofuses. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 29 21:51:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:51:37 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net>, <4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net>, <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org> Message-ID: <4B3A5DC9.22131.25D7DBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2009 at 21:19, Matthew Reed wrote: > I don't know if there was any truth behind the "bite out of Apple" > story, but it was mentioned in news reports as early as 1985. As far > as capitalization goes, any contemporary news articles I've seen in > the magazines Byte, InfoWorld, Creative Computing, and 80 Micro always > referred to it as the Adam. Wasn't Eve the first one to take a bite of the apple? Adam was just the innocent victim, succumbing to the wiles of a scheming woman. Many more victims would follow with no lessons being learned. So why isn't the Coleco box called the "Eve"? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 29 22:05:56 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:05:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091229200454.E70374@shell.lmi.net> > > Adam vs. ADAM -- that's what I am trying to find out! I am a stickler On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct > way it should be written. That's just what the marketing peopl had pasted on. What is written on the schematics? From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 22:08:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:08:46 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <20091229200454.E70374@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <20091229200454.E70374@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3AD24E.2090706@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Adam vs. ADAM -- that's what I am trying to find out! I am a stickler > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct >> way it should be written. > > That's just what the marketing peopl had pasted on. > What is written on the schematics? The nameplate I care about. The schematics, I don't. Like it or not, the marketing people named the machine. Almost no machines are sold under their engineering-department code names. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 29 22:21:08 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:21:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > < OT: rant > If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * > mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can > think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent > references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to > any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a > business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps > even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and > in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or > as close as I can get to it. < / OT: rant > Just curious: how do YOU spell and punctuate the names of each of the Apple 6502 based computers? How do you feel about the people who ARE parties to Apple's marketing? How do you spell and capitalize the name of the computer that Jobs marketed after Apple? How do you capitalize the Apple music player, and the giant evil auction site? Yes, my company name is XenoSoft. For a short while, about 30 years ago, Microsoft capitalized their 'S' also. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 29 22:26:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20F05F81-DB16-4F69-8357-AA65450C5697@bellsouth.net> <4B3AA4AF.8020207@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091229202305.I70374@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I would suggest looking the Popular Science report from the CES where > ADAM was introduced. I could be wrong, but I think it or Family > Computing had a quote from one of the people manning the Coleco booth > about it. Accept a booth bimbo as the authority? I heard a LOT of bogus stuff from "official representatives" of companies (such as a Microsoft Technical Presentation representative - he told me (1991) that Microsoft had a version of NT running (but not marketed) on 68000 Macs.) From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 22:44:55 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:44:55 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3ADAC7.5080804@snarc.net> > Just curious: how do YOU spell and punctuate the names of each of the > Apple 6502 based computers? > > How do you feel about the people who ARE parties to Apple's marketing? > > How do you spell and capitalize the name of the computer that Jobs > marketed after Apple? > > How do you capitalize the Apple music player, and the giant evil auction > site? > > > Yes, my company name is XenoSoft. > For a short while, about 30 years ago, > Microsoft capitalized their 'S' also. The early Apples are different because "II" is a valid Roman numeral. With the question of what's known as "middle caps" that indeed is a controversial topic among we reporters and editors. There's a strong argument that, in many cases, the names are virtually portmanteaus and therefore the middle caps actually mean something. The final decision is usually an editor's or publication's internal style preference, or based on whether the company has pissed us off lately. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 29 22:48:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:48:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3ADAC7.5080804@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> <4B3ADAC7.5080804@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091229204724.C70374@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > The early Apples are different because "II" is a valid Roman numeral. Do you write "Apple II", or "Apple ]["? "Apple III" or Apple ///"? From brain at jbrain.com Tue Dec 29 22:54:26 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:54:26 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3ADD02.7080304@jbrain.com> On 12/29/2009 10:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> < OT: rant> If it's officially written in all caps, then I * might * >> mention on the first reference that the vendor did so, but only if I can >> think of some reason why my readers needs to know. In all subsequent >> references I'd write it "correctly". I simply refuse to be a party to >> any company's marketing. As far as I'm concerned, "marketing" is just a >> business word for "lie." The reason companies put names in all caps >> even when they're not acronyms is so the names STAND OUT on shelves and >> in the press. That goes against my job, which is to tell the truth or >> as close as I can get to it.< / OT: rant> >> > Just curious: how do YOU spell and punctuate the names of each of the > Apple 6502 based computers? > > How do you feel about the people who ARE parties to Apple's marketing? > > How do you spell and capitalize the name of the computer that Jobs > marketed after Apple? > > How do you capitalize the Apple music player, and the giant evil auction > site? > > I was somewhat taken aback by the rant as well. In the articles, it's iPod, and Group1's address formatting application Code1 (now owned by Pitney Bowes (http://www.pbinsight.com/products/mail-postal-compliance/mail-efficiency/code-1-plus/) is "correctly" referenced as CODE-1 Plus. Using Code-1 Plus would be an error, in my opinion. Sorry for the off-topic example, but CODE-1 has been around for a LONG time, so I would actually think it qualifies. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 29 22:57:36 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:57:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AD24E.2090706@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Dec 29, 9 11:08:46 pm" Message-ID: <200912300457.nBU4vaCO015412@floodgap.com> > The nameplate I care about. The schematics, I don't. Like it or not, > the marketing people named the machine. Almost no machines are sold > under their engineering-department code names. Which is too bad, because I'd rather use a Power Macintosh Butthead Astronomer. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- there's a dance or two in the old dame yet. -- mehitabel ------------------- From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 23:08:42 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:08:42 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <20091229204724.C70374@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> <4B3ADAC7.5080804@snarc.net> <20091229204724.C70374@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3AE05A.9020008@snarc.net> >> The early Apples are different because "II" is a valid Roman numeral. >> > Do you write "Apple II", or "Apple ]["? > "Apple III" or Apple ///"? > > Oh, I understand your question now. My answer: who cares? It's only an upright line. From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 23:12:32 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:12:32 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3ADD02.7080304@jbrain.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> <4B3ADD02.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B3AE140.5080705@snarc.net> > Group1's address formatting application Code1 ... is "correctly" > referenced as CODE-1 Plus. I'm not familiar with that company or software. But, if I ever had a reason to write about it, I would do the same thing I'm doing now with the Coleco computer -- I'd try to find out if the letters are a valid acronym, and then I'd make a decision. If I found out that "CODE" does not stand for anything, then I'd write Code instead. I'd tell anyone who had a problem with that to explain to me exactly why "CODE" stands for and why they ever capitalized it in the first place. If their answer is, "Nothing, and because the company's brochures told us to," then I'd just laugh at them. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 29 23:19:12 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AE05A.9020008@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> <4B3ADAC7.5080804@snarc.net> <20091229204724.C70374@shell.lmi.net> <4B3AE05A.9020008@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091229211710.O70374@shell.lmi.net> > >> The early Apples are different because "II" is a valid Roman numeral. > > Do you write "Apple II", or "Apple ]["? > > "Apple III" or Apple ///"? On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Oh, I understand your question now. My answer: who cares? It's only an > upright line. I do. It is more of an affectation than using all caps. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Dec 29 23:28:26 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:28:26 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AE140.5080705@snarc.net> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> <4B3AA0E1.9080003@snarc.net> <20091229201425.X70374@shell.lmi.net> <4B3ADD02.7080304@jbrain.com> <4B3AE140.5080705@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B3AE4FA.1060707@jbrain.com> On 12/29/2009 11:12 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Group1's address formatting application Code1 ... is "correctly" >> referenced as CODE-1 Plus. > > I'm not familiar with that company or software. But, if I ever had a > reason to write about it, I would do the same thing I'm doing now with > the Coleco computer -- I'd try to find out if the letters are a valid > acronym, and then I'd make a decision. If I found out that "CODE" > does not stand for anything, then I'd write Code instead. I'd tell > anyone who had a problem with that to explain to me exactly why "CODE" > stands for and why they ever capitalized it in the first place. If > their answer is, "Nothing, and because the company's brochures told us > to," then I'd just laugh at them. I guess we'll agree to disagree. Code 1 would be meaningless to folks, but CODE-1 is very well known in business circles. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 30 00:50:53 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:50:53 +0000 Subject: Symbolics.com sold Message-ID: <20091230065053.GA28685@mail.loomcom.com> This is old news, but I only just found out about it and I haven't seen it mentioned here. Apparently back in August, the symbolics.com domain was sold to a seedy looking investment company that's turned it into a blog about domain squatting. I guess it's kind of crazy to have an emotional attachment to a domain name, but I have to admit I'm a little bummed about it. Symbolics.com was Symbolics for as long as I've been aware of the Internet, even right up to the end when it was just David Schmidt doing a bit of support and offering a handful of spare parts. It's still around at symbolics-dks.com, but it's just not quite the same, y'know? And what an ignominious ending... -Seth From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 01:02:43 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:02:43 -0800 Subject: Symbolics.com sold In-Reply-To: <20091230065053.GA28685@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20091230065053.GA28685@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > This is old news, but I only just found out about it and I haven't seen it > mentioned here. Apparently back in August, the symbolics.com domain was sold to > a seedy looking investment company that's turned it into a blog about domain > squatting. > > I guess it's kind of crazy to have an emotional attachment to a domain name, > but I have to admit I'm a little bummed about it. ?Symbolics.com was Symbolics > for as long as I've been aware of the Internet, even right up to the end when > it was just David Schmidt doing a bit of support and offering a handful of > spare parts. It's still around at symbolics-dks.com, but it's just not quite > the same, y'know? And what an ignominious ending... I understand your feelings since I own a Symbolics (a 36xx machine) and have both dealt with and met David Schmidt (he's an awesome guy, by the way). My understanding is that the sale was necessary, a good thing and helped close out some things. David is still around and actively selling and supporting Symbolics machines (he regularly lists stuff on EBay). Mark From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 30 01:07:26 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:07:26 +0000 Subject: Symbolics.com sold In-Reply-To: References: <20091230065053.GA28685@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20091230070726.GA28809@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 11:02:43PM -0800, Mark Davidson wrote: > I understand your feelings since I own a Symbolics (a 36xx machine) > and have both dealt with and met David Schmidt (he's an awesome guy, > by the way). My understanding is that the sale was necessary, a good > thing and helped close out some things. David is still around and > actively selling and supporting Symbolics machines (he regularly lists > stuff on EBay). Well that's good to know, at least it takes some of the sting off. I'm glad it's helped him out, and I certainly wish him well. > Mark -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 30 01:17:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:17:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <200912300457.nBU4vaCO015412@floodgap.com> References: <200912300457.nBU4vaCO015412@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20091229231610.T70374@shell.lmi.net> > > The nameplate I care about. The schematics, I don't. Like it or not, > > the marketing people named the machine. Almost no machines are sold > > under their engineering-department code names. On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Which is too bad, because I'd rather use a Power Macintosh Butthead > Astronomer. Why would they think that we wouldn't buy "Butthead Astronomer" computers? From brain at jbrain.com Wed Dec 30 01:20:33 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:20:33 -0600 Subject: Symbolics.com sold In-Reply-To: References: <20091230065053.GA28685@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4B3AFF41.7020007@jbrain.com> On 12/30/2009 1:02 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > by the way). My understanding is that the sale was necessary, a good > thing and helped close out some things. David is still around and > For those who remember the sale and understand the history, can you clarify the above? "Necessary"? "Helped close out some things"? Jim From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Dec 30 02:06:44 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 09:06:44 +0100 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) References: Message-ID: >> > More seriously, my e-mail address and 'organisation' refer to a Philips >> > P850, which is a 16 bit minicomputer (OK, thar particular model ahs an >> > 8 >> > bit ALU, but it appears to be 16 bits to the programmer) dating from >> > 1970. I have several other machines in the range (P851, which uses >> > Philips custom bitslice chips (SPALU == Scratch Pad and Arithmetic >> > Logic >> > Unit) , P854, which uses AMD2900 series chips and has an MMU, and what >> > appears to be a P850-series single-chip processor, maybe a P853 CPU >> > board). >> > >> > These machines are not common (to put it mildly!), but they do exist. >> There was also the P85x-based P6800 series (later P8000), where most of the peripherals originated from Philips J?rf?lla in Sweden. We have a complete system in the danish datamuseum, and also some disks with release packages. I know for sure there is everything between TOSS release 7 and 11 TOSS was the run-time system, where every system had its own monitor (to save space) Those monitors were generated under DOS, which AFAIK was a normal P85x DOS. I worked at Philips Copenhagen from 1979 to 1984 on P6800 systems. These were used mainly for local authorities for bookkeeping, budget etc., but were also in use in the danish railway system and the P&T. >> > I've got (somewhere) a Philips word processor system -- a large case >> > containing a CRT display and a pair of 5.25" drives, with a CPU board >> > (a >> > pair of Z80s IIRC) at the back and a separate keyboard. >> >> Early model Philips VideoWriter? The ones with a 3.5" drive were >> fairly common in the mid-'80's. > > IIRC this machine claims to be a P5200. I found it in a charity shop in > Cheltenham (odd, because chartiy shops in the UK don't normally sell > mains-pwered stuff due to totally stupid regulations). IIRC there was > also a Philips printer in the shop, but I couldn't carry everything. > Carrying the P5200 with the keyvboard in my coat pocket (I am not joking) > was something I don't want to have to do too often... > There was also a Philips P5002. This was a rebadged canadian system. I converted a lot of P5002 floppies to WordPerfect :-) Nico From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 29 15:37:28 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:37:28 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com> If I recall, the rule is that the S lines or equivalent will tell you what to take on the output. I don't know if it is a violation to drive the other 8 bits or not, but your hardware should only be told that there is an 8 bit transaction going on. Jim Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > While we're on the subject of 80186s I discovered some odd (well > undocumented) behavior whilst experementing on my RM Nimbus (as I'm > writing a MESS driver). > > If I load a value into AX, and then do an out instruction with AL, the > whole of AX seems to still appear on the data bus, something like: > > MOV AX,055AAh > OUT 022,AL > > It looks like to me that the whole of AX is actually getting put out, > and that the /BHE ine is set to signify only the bottom 8 bits are > valid. The Nimbus video controller seems to ignore /BHE and treat the > data bus as always 16 bits wide. > > Is this known undocumented behavior ? I seem to remember that the Z80 > has a similar undocumented behavior with the addressing of it's in and > out instructions also. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 16:24:22 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:24:22 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <135876.3669.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0912291424y54fed70bx4c675fc5ad4939a4@mail.gmail.com> I think that's more of an urban legend than the actual reason for the name. I have yet to see an actual verifiable source for the attribution. According to a lawsuit over the name, Coleco had it trademarked back in '76, making the claim impossible - http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/17/business/logical-challenges-coleco-s-adam.html Marty On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://www.techtite.com/Features/Adam.html > > FYI : The unit was called "Adam" because Coleco hoped it would take a "bite" out of Apple (computers). Oh well; it was a cute idea... > > > > --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> From: Evan Koblentz >> Subject: Coleco Adam name? >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 1:22 AM >> Anyone know the background / meaning >> of Coleco's "Adam" name? >> > > > > From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 18:09:00 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:09:00 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912291308g220e604av1270021cc0d90b00@mail.gmail.com> References: <200912292043.nBTKh8R3017326@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380912291308g220e604av1270021cc0d90b00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0912291609l48fb840ex84800bf41676578a@mail.gmail.com> There was pretty thorough discussion of after market power supplies, taking the power supplies out of the printer, and even using PC power supplies over at AtariAge here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/95886-colecovision-adam-replacement-power-supply/ On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:47 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Has anyone come up with a substitute power supply for these things so you >> don't need to have the printer hanging around? > > Good point. ?How hard could it be? ?The wikipedia page for the adam > has some links at the bottom to users groups. ?They probably have the > info for that. > > You could probably hack together a cable to hook it up to a different > printer while drawing power from an old atx power supply or something. > ?The interface is probably a regular old serial or parallel interface, > just with a proprietary cable. ?I doubt coleco made their own > printers. ?I bet there's a fix for the tape drive problem as well. > Did they ever make a floppy drive for the adam or did it die too > quickly? > > I had a colecovision as a kid and played it a lot. ?When the adam came > out, I desperately wanted one, but my parents couldn't separate the > idea of a home computer from the idea of a video game console. ?Any > computer was just something (expensive) for me to play games on, so > they refused to buy one. ?They eventually bought a 5150 used since > that was a *real* computer. ?And they could use it for work (I don't > think they ever attempted to use it). ?I worked for a year and a half > making minimum wage to save up enough for an amiga 500. ?I asked them > to chip in some money for a 2000. ?They refused because the amiga was > obviously only for games. ?Of course, I learned C and 68000 assembly > language on that machine as well as writing countless papers. > Sometimes I think I got my computer science degree in spite of my > parents. ?Can you tell I'm bitter. ?;-) > > brian > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Dec 30 07:17:56 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:17:56 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3B5304.5050604@bluewin.ch> > I assume you mean that the power rails were fine, and there were sensible > waveforms on the other pins. > Indeed, voltages ok and syncsignals as described in the HP Journal article. > >> The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was >> also correct. >> > > Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is > this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself? > No, it is a small PCB mounted on the plastic frame, and it contains 5 TTL to calculate the framing signal from H and V sync. Should have been done in the displaycontroller imho. >> This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation converter, used >> to power some logic that is required on the far end of high voltage >> > > Where does it get the HV from? It must be generated on the display board itself. > The very small pcb mounted on top of the displaycontroller board is the 5V convertor. The high volatge is probably generated with the small transformer on the big board. >> I would still be interested in any schematic of the driver electronics >> of any Epson electroluminiscent display Of course is is actually a Sharp display... Still would like to know why it needs a CPU & Eprom, since it has already all required signals. Jos From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 30 08:16:04 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:16:04 +0100 Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <4B3B5304.5050604@bluewin.ch> References: <4B3B5304.5050604@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <6D15F0E4CE4D495D864CADC8CBAACEF3@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jos Dreesen > Verzonden: woensdag 30 december 2009 14:18 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral / display schematic ? > > > > I assume you mean that the power rails were fine, and there were > > sensible waveforms on the other pins. > > > Indeed, voltages ok and syncsignals as described in the HP > Journal article. > > > >> The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that > >> was also correct. > >> > > > > Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these > > displays. Is this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself? > > > > No, it is a small PCB mounted on the plastic frame, and it > contains 5 TTL to calculate the framing signal from H and V > sync. Should have been done in the displaycontroller imho. > >> This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation > converter, > >> used to power some logic that is required on the far end of high > >> voltage > >> > > > > Where does it get the HV from? It must be generated on the > display board itself. > > > The very small pcb mounted on top of the displaycontroller > board is the 5V convertor. > The high volatge is probably generated with the small > transformer on the big board. > > > >> I would still be interested in any schematic of the driver > >> electronics of any Epson electroluminiscent display > Of course is is actually a Sharp display... > Still would like to know why it needs a CPU & Eprom, since it > has already all required signals. > > Jos Mine is working fine until now.. When I got mine it wasn't used for several years, and I got the Idea it wasn't used much in the years before. And I did checked the screen signals and had the idea it was the HV-supply not having a high enough voltage to ignite the screen cells. Or one of the little japanese who live in old electronics wasn't awake yet ;-) Never the less after letting it (by accident) on for a few hours the screen switched on. And it stays working.. Did you read the HP journal article about the Integral ? It describes the engineering background of the Integral. http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=122 -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 11:28:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 09:28:48 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com> References: , <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4B3B1D50.26027.F0F68@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2009 at 13:37, jim s wrote: > If I recall, the rule is that the S lines or equivalent will tell you > what to take on the output. I don't know if it is a violation to > drive the other 8 bits or not, but your hardware should only be told > that there is an 8 bit transaction going on. The "if" and "where" of byte-vs-word operations are determined on the 186 by BHE/ and A0. Very straightforward. If they're both low, a word is being requested. If either (but not both) is high, the upper or lower byte of a word is being signalled (both high is a "reserved" condition). One of the attractions of the 186 over the 86 is the insanely simple interfacing. No bus controller needed; easy to decipher signals--and 6 programmable memory chip selects and 4/5 peripheral chip selects. My gripe was the 2-channel DMA controller. If one channel was used for DRAM autoinitialize refresh, then that left you with only a single DMA channel. In that respect, the NEC V50 was much superior. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 30 11:49:43 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 09:49:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com> References: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20091230094605.R88177@shell.lmi.net> > If I load a value into AX, and then do an out instruction with AL, the > whole of AX seems to still appear on the data bus, something like: > MOV AX,055AAh > OUT 022,AL > It looks like to me that the whole of AX is actually getting put out, No big deal. I assume that was the 80186. How was the timing of the 80188? (did it also try to do anything with AH?) From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Dec 30 12:19:49 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:19:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dell PowerVault 120T Message-ID: <780521.55937.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, I've got a Dell PowerVault 120T available if anyone is interested. I believe this is a DLT7000 tape autoloader and the interface on the back looks to be a SCSI (possibly differential scsi). Info I'm sure is available on the web. I've never switched this unit on, so cant confirm if its working or not. It looks as if its designed to fit a 19" rack, and there is one rack ear on the right side, nothing on the left. Anyway get in touch off list if interested. I'm in the UK (Yorkshire). Its free if collected. Cheers Ian. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 12:48:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:48:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Dec 30, 9 02:29:37 am Message-ID: > (To be fair, the PCW's printer was connected to the PCW with *two* > cables -- data and power -- but I suspect that was just Amstrad's > designers being their usual penny-pinching selves...) I think it was because there was no commonly-avaiallbe connector that coule (a) carry the current needed by the printer mechanicals and (b) had enough pins for all the data lines -- the printer really was a dumb device, just motors, printhead and drivers, all the timing came from the computer). OK, penny-pinching if you line (in that there were expensive connectors that could do the job), but IMHO a sensible choice. FWIOW, the daisywheel printer used on the PCW9512+ seems to have had a single cable ending in a 14 pin DIN plug (think : Atari ST floppy drive). But that has a serial interface (not RS232, of course), with a gate array (I think) in the printer. Or at least that's what the service manual shows. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 12:28:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:28:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912291308g220e604av1270021cc0d90b00@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Dec 29, 9 03:08:06 pm Message-ID: [ADAM printer] > The interface is probably a regular old serial or parallel interface, > just with a proprietary cable. I doubt coleco made their own > printers. I bet there's a fix for the tape drive problem as well. Hmm... A nmmber of manufacturers (Commodore being the obvious one) used standard printer mechansisms with their own electronics, and thust their own interface. I think it's fairly well-known that the Commodore GPIB printers had Epson mechansims, but the electronics is nothing like the Epson electronics. And of course the Commodore 1520 is an Alps mechanism. Maybe Coleco did soemthing similar. I'd heard the interface was something a little unconventional... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 12:57:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:57:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A5CB5.20698.25944DD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 29, 9 07:47:01 pm Message-ID: > The Joyce PSU is something like the early Mac ones--basically run off > the flyback transformer for the CRT. Very, very little excess I disagree. The PSU is on the same PCB as the monitor, but in nrither case does any of the logic run off the flyback transformer. I have the Amstrad PCW8256 service manual here. The PSU is a switch-mode thing using an STK7308 hybrid chip. It produces +5V, +12V, +24V. The monitor is a conventional monochrome design running off that +12V line. The CRT heater is powered straight from that, other CRT voltages come from the flyback transformer as you'd expect. > capacity--indeed, if you're printing, the display goes a bit wonky. Thati s a separae issue. I can well beleive the decoupling is not all it should be :-) > It's not what I'd call a desirable setup. And Cthulhu help you if > you accidentally overload or short a power supply output--there are a How is the average user going to do that? > bunch of circuit protectors in TO-92 packages soldered onto the video > board. I'd never seen one on this side of the Pond before, and it They are very common in consumer electronics over here. And not hard to get. I am sure a UK supplier will ship across the Pond. Now perhaps you know how I feel when I want to get 0.125" or 0.156" edge connectors (which nobody stocks over here). And UNC bolts are rarer than rocking horse manure in the UK. Much rarer. > took awhile before I tumbled to what they were. I just replaced the > blown ones with picofuses. That's what a lot of people do :-). According to the manual, there are 3 of them, one inseries with each chopper transformer secondary winding. They're ICP-N75 devices, which I think are 3A. But I would have to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 13:06:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:06:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral / display schematic ? In-Reply-To: <4B3B5304.5050604@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 30, 9 02:17:56 pm Message-ID: > >> The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was > >> also correct. > >> > > > > Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is > > this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself? > > > > No, it is a small PCB mounted on the plastic frame, and it contains 5 > TTL to calculate the framing signal from H and V sync. Should have been > done in the displaycontroller imho. Now that's interesting. I am darn sure neighter of my IPCs has such a PCB. There are 2 unused threaded studs on the back of the display housing, is that where this PCB is fitted? In my machines there's a 20 way ribbon cable that plugs into the logic B PCB at one end and into the display itself at the other .The logic B PCB (at least i nthe IPC I looked at first) is a 00095-60149 My guess is that there are several versions of this display (rather than several Logic B PCB versions, since the Logic B PCB I have doesn't generate a blanking signal). Sometime (if I get time...) I'll pull my IPCs apart and note down the numbers on the display module. And see if I can indentify any components on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 12:42:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:42:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: from "Geoff Oltmans" at Dec 29, 9 06:41:51 pm Message-ID: > > Contrary to popular opinion, I actually think this was a smart idea. = > Here's why: > > While it is true that if the printer PS dies, the computer isn't usable, = > putting the PS for the system in the printer actually simplified the = > wiring of the unit. It only required one AC connection for the whole = > thing, one wire going from the printer to the computer, and one wire to = > the keyboard. The whole system was designed with the idea of making = > things simple for non-techies to use. So, in that respect, I think it = > was a good idea. Having one PSU 9and thus one mains lead) might well be a good idea, but the sensible place to put it is in the processor box, surely. After all, if the printer then dies, you can carry on using the computer while you fix the printer. And if any part of the processor unit dies (including the PSU), the printer is pretty useless anyway. With the PSU in the printer, if the printer dies you can't use the rest of the machine (no PSU), but if the processor, etc dies you can't use the printer (even though you have a PSU for it). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 13:21:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:21:43 -0800 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <20091230094605.R88177@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com>, <20091230094605.R88177@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3B37C7.31496.767001@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2009 at 9:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > No big deal. > I assume that was the 80186. > How was the timing of the 80188? (did it also try to do anything with > AH?) Somewhat different BIU architecture on the 80188. BHE/-S7 is always high on the 188, and data's never multiplexed onto A15-A8. The execution timing's the same on both chips, according to the datasheet. So if anything is being done with AH, you don't have any way of seeing it. What *is* documented is doing word I/O on the 188--it's converted by the BIU to two 8-bit transfers from port and port+1. The behavior that the OP noted with the 186 seems to be documented in graphic form in the BIU section of the 186 Microprocessor User's Manual at: http://www.intel.com/design/intarch/manuals/27083003.pdf Not only does BHE/ signal which half of the 16-bit bus to use during outpuf, but on input, the interface circuitry is allowe to drive all 16 data bus bits, even if BHE/ and A0 signal a byte transfer. So the behavior can be reciprocal. --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 13:31:45 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:31:45 +0000 Subject: the venerable 80186 (and 80188) In-Reply-To: <20091230094605.R88177@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B3A7389.5040506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4B3A7698.20907@jwsss.com> <20091230094605.R88177@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B3BAAA1.9060107@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> If I load a value into AX, and then do an out instruction with AL, the >> whole of AX seems to still appear on the data bus, something like: >> MOV AX,055AAh >> OUT 022,AL >> It looks like to me that the whole of AX is actually getting put out, > > No big deal. > I assume that was the 80186. > How was the timing of the 80188? (did it also try to do anything with > AH?) Yep 80186, dunno about the 188, I alas don't have one to test it on... I wasn't actually supprised by the behavior...just wondered if anyone had noticed it before :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 30 13:48:17 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:48:17 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the case of the SmartWriter printer, it uses the ADAMNet interface. It's a proprietary interface that all the peripherals use... keyboard, tape drives, disk drives, etc. all use it. It's basically a two wire I2C (tx/rx on the same pair) running at 62.5kbps with their own proprietary protocol running over it. Supports up to 16 devices. On Dec 30, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [ADAM printer] > >> The interface is probably a regular old serial or parallel interface, >> just with a proprietary cable. I doubt coleco made their own >> printers. I bet there's a fix for the tape drive problem as well. > > Hmm... A nmmber of manufacturers (Commodore being the obvious one) used > standard printer mechansisms with their own electronics, and thust their > own interface. I think it's fairly well-known that the Commodore GPIB > printers had Epson mechansims, but the electronics is nothing like the > Epson electronics. And of course the Commodore 1520 is an Alps mechanism. > > Maybe Coleco did soemthing similar. I'd heard the interface was something > a little unconventional... > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 13:48:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:48:24 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B3A5CB5.20698.25944DD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 29, 9 07:47:01 pm, Message-ID: <4B3B3E08.9973.8EDE76@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2009 at 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > I disagree. The PSU is on the same PCB as the monitor, but in nrither > case does any of the logic run off the flyback transformer. You're right. Going back to my very blurry schematic, I see how it works now. > Thati s a separae issue. I can well beleive the decoupling is not all > it should be :-) Heck, the PSU will barely support 2 floppy drives. It's not a decoupling matter at all. When the printer's running, the DC output sags. > How is the average user going to do that? By plugging just about anything other than the printer into the +24v socket on the back of the unit that everyone else in the universe uses as a power input? Nothing like swimming against the current, is there? > Now perhaps you know how I feel when I want to get 0.125" or 0.156" > edge connectors (which nobody stocks over here). And UNC bolts are > rarer than rocking horse manure in the UK. Much rarer. THAT is mostly a supply problem. I can get metric, UNC, and even Wentworth hardware here--as well as taps and dies. Alas, that may not last however. The US manufacturing infrastructure that creates the demand for this sort of thing is headed down the same rathole that the UK manufacturing infrastructure went down long ago. On the other hand, you can probably easily find all of the above at most hardware vendors in Shenzhen. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Dec 30 14:14:58 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:14:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9C3D.3010705@snarc.net> <4B3A9D37.8030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How is it written on the machine's nameplate? AFAIC, that's the correct way > it should be written. Not necessarily. If it was always true, you'd rent videos from Moxie Gallery or try to figure out how to pronounce the alchemic symbol for soapstone. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Dec 30 14:19:26 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <20091229231610.T70374@shell.lmi.net> References: <200912300457.nBU4vaCO015412@floodgap.com> <20091229231610.T70374@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> The nameplate I care about. The schematics, I don't. Like it or not, >>> the marketing people named the machine. Almost no machines are sold >>> under their engineering-department code names. > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Which is too bad, because I'd rather use a Power Macintosh Butthead >> Astronomer. > > Why would they think that we wouldn't buy "Butthead Astronomer" computers? In my mind's eye I see Beavis and Butthead wearing cardigan sweaters reading "Sky and Telescope". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 14:38:03 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:38:03 +0100 Subject: An introduction to microcomputers books serie Message-ID: Hi Does anyone has the ISBN of the latest edition of these 4 books by any chance ? I think I found the first two, but I'm not sure they refer to the latest edition: Author: Adam Osborne An introduction to microcomputers : Vol.0: The Beginner's Book - 093198808X Vol.1: Basic concepts - 0931988349 Vol.2: Some real microprocessors - ? Vol.3: Some real support devices - ? If you want to sell me your copy, drop me a mail. Thank you -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 15:10:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:10:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3B3E08.9973.8EDE76@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 9 11:48:24 am Message-ID: > > Thati s a separae issue. I can well beleive the decoupling is not all > > it should be :-) > > Heck, the PSU will barely support 2 floppy drives. It's not a > decoupling matter at all. When the printer's running, the DC output > sags. I'd call that a decoupling (or coupling) issue. Just a very low frequency one :-)# > > > How is the average user going to do that? > > By plugging just about anything other than the printer into the +24v > socket on the back of the unit that everyone else in the universe > uses as a power input? Nothing like swimming against the current, > is there? Err, if you're going to start plugging random things into connectors, you deserve all you get. How about pluging an RS232 cable into an IBM-compatible parallel port? It'll fit, but it'll blow a few chips. TTL (or whatever) doesn't like having +/-12V applied to its pins. FWIW, there is a current limit circuit on the +24V output (the '24V Protect' blcok Q5010 to Q5013 and related components). There is a similar circuit on the 5V rail. From what I can see, the 12V rail is not protected, but that one is only brought out on the bus expansion conenctor, and if you connect random things there you've got a lot more to worry aobut that blowing a PSU fuse. My guess is that shorting out either supply line used by the printer will do no lasting damage. I don't know why I am defending Amstrad products. I don't much care for them (they _are_ cheaply made, as you know I like quality desigbs). On the other hand I think the PCW range was one of the better thought-out 'appliance' computers > > > Now perhaps you know how I feel when I want to get 0.125" or 0.156" > > edge connectors (which nobody stocks over here). And UNC bolts are > > rarer than rocking horse manure in the UK. Much rarer. > > > THAT is mostly a supply problem. I can get metric, UNC, and even > Wentworth hardware here--as well as taps and dies. Do you mean Whitworth (as in BSW)? Those are quite common over here. And I'll lay odds that almost everyone here has used a 1/4" BSW screw at some point. Can you get BA fasteners? Those were very commonly used on small machinery, electrical stuff, etc over here. A lot are still in use. They are not hard to get here. I can get the connectors I mentioned from, e.g. Digikey. OK, I have to pay the shipping charges, but I can get them. But I've not found a company who will sell me a small quantity of UNC fasteners and send them to England ('small quantity' means, say, 100 off 1/2" 6-32 bolts. Not just 1 of them). Suprisingly the taps and dies can be found over here. I can make nuts (although it's a lot of work to mill a piece of rod to a hexagon and tap the hole), but making screws with the right heads is a lot harder. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 30 16:06:50 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:06:50 -0800 Subject: An introduction to microcomputers books serie References: Message-ID: <4B3BCEF9.62108F70@cs.ubc.ca> St?phane Tsacas wrote: > > Does anyone has the ISBN of the latest edition of these 4 books by any > chance ? I think I found the first two, but I'm not sure they refer to the > latest edition: > > Author: Adam Osborne > > An introduction to microcomputers : > Vol.0: The Beginner's Book - 093198808X > Vol.1: Basic concepts - 0931988349 > Vol.2: Some real microprocessors - ? I don't know when the latest edition was, but the 1976 edition has: Volume II - Some Real Products Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 76-374891 I don't see any other catalog numbers anywhere, other than Osborne's own series number of 3001. There is little in the way of publishing information. > Vol.3: Some real support devices - ? > > If you want to sell me your copy, drop me a mail. From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 11:10:41 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:10:41 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0912300910h8dbab8ew131528e5673c48bc@mail.gmail.com> I just spent the night looking it up in news databasees and the contemporary newspaper articles all used ADAM, including in the announcement before and during the CES unveiling. Marty On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Matthew Reed wrote: > > > I don't know if there was any truth behind the "bite out of Apple" story, > but it was mentioned in news reports as early as 1985. As far as > capitalization goes, any contemporary news articles I've seen in the > magazines Byte, InfoWorld, Creative Computing, and 80 Micro always referred > to it as the Adam. > > -- > Matthew Reed > http://www.trs-80.org > mkr at trs-80.org > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 16:55:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:55:19 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B3B3E08.9973.8EDE76@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 9 11:48:24 am, Message-ID: <4B3B69D7.21861.13A0027@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2009 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: Do you mean Whitworth (as in BSW)? Those are quite common over here. > And I'll lay odds that almost everyone here has used a 1/4" BSW screw > at some point. Yes, Whitworth. My slip-up. > Can you get BA fasteners? Those were very commonly used on small > machinery, electrical stuff, etc over here. A lot are still in use. > They are not hard to get here. Several places carry them, including British Screws and Fasteners in Lyon, NY. I also imagine that some of the hard-bitten British auto gearheads know where to find a ready supply. > I can get the connectors I mentioned from, e.g. Digikey. OK, I have to > pay the shipping charges, but I can get them. But I've not found a > company who will sell me a small quantity of UNC fasteners and send > them to England ('small quantity' means, say, 100 off 1/2" 6-32 bolts. > Not just 1 of them). Suprisingly the taps and dies can be found over > here. I can make nuts (although it's a lot of work to mill a piece of > rod to a hexagon and tap the hole), but making screws with the right > heads is a lot harder. A quick web search turns up this fellow who seems to carry them in a wide variety of material, heads and lengths and sells in small quantity. Michael Peters Surplus Supplies Caunton Newark Notts NG23 6AJ Tel: 01636 636735 Surplusmpeters at aol.com There are probably others. FWIW, I did a quick check and I can get all of the mentioned threadings from at least one outfit in Shenzhen. I'd be surprised if it were otherwise. All the best, Chuck From mkr at trs-80.org Wed Dec 30 18:16:00 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:16:00 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0912300910h8dbab8ew131528e5673c48bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net> <4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org> <2c768b1e0912300910h8dbab8ew131528e5673c48bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3BED40.3070203@trs-80.org> Martin Goldberg wrote: > I just spent the night looking it up in news databasees and the > contemporary newspaper articles all used ADAM, including in the > announcement before and during the CES unveiling. That's interesting because the magazines I've seen didn't use "ADAM" even in their announcements. For example, here's the first paragraph of the article "Coleco introduces Adam system at SCES" by Scott Mace from the June 27, 1983 issue of InfoWorld: "Coleco grabbed center stage at the Summer Consumer Electronics Show with the Adam, a personal-computer system that includes a letter-quality printer, 80K RAM, a tape drive and word processor in ROM. The system costs less than $600." Despite Coleco's promise that it "would ship the Adam to stores in August" that article pointed out some problems that were already apparent: "The Coleco press conference, held at the Chicago Art Institute, was an overly flashy, expensive, multimedia presentation. Company officials gave a few brief product demonstrations but were hesitant to give any in-depth demonstrations. Obviously, the Adam is not totally ready for the market at this point." -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Dec 30 18:46:08 2009 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:46:08 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net><4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org><2c768b1e0912300910h8dbab8ew131528e5673c48bc@mail.gmail.com> <4B3BED40.3070203@trs-80.org> Message-ID: > Martin Goldberg wrote: >> I just spent the night looking it up in news databasees and the >> contemporary newspaper articles all used ADAM, including in the >> announcement before and during the CES unveiling. > > That's interesting because the magazines I've seen didn't use "ADAM" even > in their announcements. For example, here's the first paragraph of the > article "Coleco introduces Adam system at SCES" by Scott Mace from the > June 27, 1983 issue of InfoWorld: It was the common convention with the computer press at the time to change all odd capitalizations to an initial cap for product and company names. I know this was the case with all IDG publications, including InfoWorld and 80 Micro. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:55:01 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:55:01 -0800 Subject: Symbolics.com sold In-Reply-To: <4B3AFF41.7020007@jbrain.com> References: <20091230065053.GA28685@mail.loomcom.com> <4B3AFF41.7020007@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 12/30/2009 1:02 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> by the way). ?My understanding is that the sale was necessary, a good >> thing and helped close out some things. ?David is still around and >> > > For those who remember the sale and understand the history, can you clarify > the above? ?"Necessary"? ?"Helped close out some things"? > > Jim Jim--- I'll have to dig into my emails and find the exchange I had with David about the sale. Let me do that and I'll see what I have. Mark From mkr at trs-80.org Wed Dec 30 20:01:24 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:01:24 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net><4B3A9CBA.50106@snarc.net> <4B3AB8BD.6080807@trs-80.org><2c768b1e0912300910h8dbab8ew131528e5673c48bc@mail.gmail.com> <4B3BED40.3070203@trs-80.org> Message-ID: <4B3C05F4.6060507@trs-80.org> Michael Nadeau wrote: > It was the common convention with the computer press at the time to > change all odd capitalizations to an initial cap for product and company > names. I know this was the case with all IDG publications, including > InfoWorld and 80 Micro. That makes sense. My favorite examples of odd names were TK!Solver and xT.CAD. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 30 20:15:20 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:15:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I can get the connectors I mentioned from, e.g. Digikey. OK, I have to > pay the shipping charges, but I can get them. But I've not found a > company who will sell me a small quantity of UNC fasteners and send them > to England ('small quantity' means, say, 100 off 1/2" 6-32 bolts. Not > just 1 of them). Suprisingly the taps and dies can be found over here. I > can make nuts (although it's a lot of work to mill a piece of rod to a > hexagon and tap the hole), but making screws with the right heads is a > lot harder. > > -tony Tony, you might want to try http://www.boltdepot.com. I don't know if they ship to the UK though. I'd be surprised if they didn't. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 30 20:25:11 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:25:11 -0800 Subject: Ferguson Big Board question References: Message-ID: <4B3C0B86.7F8399B@cs.ubc.ca> Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi, > i collected all i can in this last 2 years on the mine BigBoard1 at my web site http://elazzerini.interfree.it > Please excuse me for my not perfect English. On the website I left some URL from where you can download other information like its schematic and so on. > What you mean saying: ?I am just considering divesting myself of a Ferguson Big Board system that I have never played with.? > You wish to play with it now or you wish to sell it? Let me know pls. elazzeriniATinterfree.it (substitute AT with @) I've been going through a few systems I have here, collecting photos and info, assessing which ones I wish to let go / get rid of / let somebody else play with / etc. The FBB system is one of them. As far as FBB systems go, I also have a homebrew Xerox-820-based portable (Xerox-820 is an FBB derivative). Some photos and info, so far; including the FBB and Xerox-820 systems: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/ctg/index.html Two or three list members have expressed some interest in some of these already. I'm somewhat reluctant to ship this stuff, however; some of it would require crates or good double boxes. I had been collecting these, in part, as representative examples in the span of computer technology developments. I guess a lot of us here have a little fantasy of having a computer museum, and I would have liked the radio museum here to expand it's mandate to stay relevant, but most of these systems have been sitting in my house for some years now. I just powered up the FBB system and got it to boot to the monitor. I also just fixed a video problem with the homebrew Xerox-820, a problem that had been there since I received it about 9 years ago. The problem was failing 2114 RAM chips, as was just being discussed on the list, had to replace 2 of them. It now boots into CP/M from disk. Thanks (Enrico) for the pages and links about the FBB, the info was helpful in getting these going. Of course, once you start playing with them it becomes more difficult to let them go, damn it. I have enough projects to work on however. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 20:59:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:59:21 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3C05F4.6060507@trs-80.org> References: <4B39A01E.2050805@snarc.net>, , <4B3C05F4.6060507@trs-80.org> Message-ID: <4B3BA309.17168.21969F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2009 at 21:01, Matthew Reed wrote: > That makes sense. My favorite examples of odd names were TK!Solver and > xT.CAD. Don't forget that "Adam" was the name of the robot (Adam Link) in "I, Robot", a 1964 episode of "The Outer Limits". The Coleco product probably would have been less popular if called "D.A.R.Y.L.". --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 30 20:59:32 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:59:32 -0800 Subject: plus hardcard patents Message-ID: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> US4639863 and US4819153 The interesting thing about them is they include the full schematics From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Dec 30 21:12:02 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:12:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?utf-8?B?4oCYV2VsY29tZSB0byBNYWNpbnRvc2jigJkgb24gQ05CQyBKYW51YXJ5IDQg?= =?utf-8?B?YXQgOTozMFBNIEVU?= In-Reply-To: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <286663.58366.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LApncvI0d2M ?Welcome to Macintosh?, the independent documentary highlighting Apple Inc.?s history and following, is to make its exclusive North American television premiere on CNBC, First in Business Worldwide, on Monday, January 4 at 9:30PM ET. The documentary was recently made available on the iTunes movie store where it reached the top 10 in documentary sales and rentals. "CNBC is the perfect home for Welcome to Macintosh," said Rob Baca, co-Director of the film. "We took the people and the passion felt for Apple seriously, and CNBC provides the ideal venue for informative and entertaining content to be presented." "The goal was to make a film that you can show to anyone, even someone that has never used a computer, and have them understand why so many people love Macintosh," says Josh Rizzo, Co-Director. "CNBC has given us the opportunity to share that message with millions of households across North America." "Make no mistake, this is film is about as independent as you can get. No studio, no bankroll, just two dedicated filmmakers and their credit cards. The result has been life-changing for the both of us," Says Baca. In the spring of 2009 the filmmakers held a screening in San Francisco during the week of Macworld Conference and Expo during which Apple co-founder and entrepreneur Steve Wozniak commented that 'Welcome to Macintosh' was "So much on the mark... I've been involved with some other independent films and this is by far the best one I've seen." Andy Hertzfeld, co-creator of the Mac and Author of "Revolution in The Valley" said that "Welcome to Macintosh captures and exemplifies the unique spirit expressed in Apple's products." Ron Wayne, co-founder of the Apple Computer Company and Author of "Nature of Money" said "Welcome to Macintosh is an entertaining, and illuminating look at the people and events that made Apple and the Macintosh the phenomenon it is today." Welcome to Macintosh has been presented in over fifty Macintosh User Groups around the world as well as an official selection in seven international film festivals including the 10th Annual Wisconsin Film Festival, the 4th Globians World and Culture Documentary Film Festival, the 1st Ann. Naperville Independent Film Fest, the Texandance International Film Festival as well as the Cleveland Ingenuity Festival. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Dec 30 21:17:27 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:17:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IOKAmFdlbGNvbWUgdG8gTWFjaW50b3No4oCZIG9uIENOQkMgSmFudWFy?= =?utf-8?B?eSA0IGF0IDk6MzBQTSBFVA==?= In-Reply-To: <286663.58366.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <736102.60449.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Original link http://9to5mac.com/welcome_to_mac_tv_debut_30251 From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 30 23:42:33 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:42:33 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?=91Welcome_to_Macintosh=92_on_CNBC_?= =?windows-1252?Q?January_4_at_9=3A30PM_ET?= In-Reply-To: <286663.58366.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <286663.58366.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B3C39C9.4030305@snarc.net> > "Make no mistake, this is film is about as independent as you can get. No studio, no bankroll, just two dedicated filmmakers and their credit cards. The result has been life-changing for the both of us," Says Baca. I shared a comment on our local (mid-Atlantic) list; will share here too .... the movie is "independent" in film terms, but what about in objectivity? Has anyone here seen it? I'd like to know if it's really a documentary, or merely a hagography -- and if it's the latter then tell us more about the people who made it. I searched on their site and cannot find any biographical information. How do we know they aren't funded by or working directly for Apple? From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 31 02:11:39 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 03:11:39 -0500 Subject: An introduction to microcomputers books serie Message-ID: <01CA89C7.00FA95C0@MSE_D03> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:06:50 -0800 From: Brent Hilpert Subject: Re: An introduction to microcomputers books serie St?phane Tsacas wrote: > > Does anyone has the ISBN of the latest edition of these 4 books by any > chance ? I think I found the first two, but I'm not sure they refer to the > latest edition: > > Author: Adam Osborne > > An introduction to microcomputers : > Vol.0: The Beginner's Book - 093198808X > Vol.1: Basic concepts - 0931988349 > Vol.2: Some real microprocessors - ? I don't know when the latest edition was, but the 1976 edition has: Volume II - Some Real Products Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 76-374891 I don't see any other catalog numbers anywhere, other than Osborne's own series number of 3001. There is little in the way of publishing information. > Vol.3: Some real support devices - ? > > If you want to sell me your copy, drop me a mail. ---------REPLY:---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've got Volume 0, The Beginner's Book (c) 1977 (#6001) and it doesn't have an ISBN or Library of Congress numbers either. Lots of pictures of an IMSAI 8080 though, with "the luxury of a Teletype"... FWIW, I also have a copy of #4001, 8080 Programming for Logic Design, (c) 1976, which does have a Library of Congress number, 77-670032. mike From jws at jwsss.com Thu Dec 31 01:32:21 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:32:21 -0800 Subject: plus hardcard patents In-Reply-To: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> References: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B3C5385.4070108@jwsss.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > US4639863 and US4819153 > > The interesting thing about them is they include the full schematics Also the firmware for the sequencer. The descriptions have to be complete to describe the "embodiment" of the invention, which is then claimed to be the embodied device completely contained within the host computer. The claims have to be described relative to some physical device, and for whatever reason they decide to throw in the whole thing. xx863 claims the enclosed device in the host. xx153 claims a bunch of improvements. When I get time, I'd like to look at some of the claims such as claiming that the method of rotational sensing of sectors is their improvement is not prior art in 1989 (methods 28, 29 page 43 of xx153. I have the luxury of working with a patent attorney right now, so this might be a good learning experience. Thanks for posting these, Al. Jim From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 05:12:43 2009 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:12:43 +0000 Subject: Terminal servers (was Re: DEC Server 200/MC) In-Reply-To: <1A34067283074C2788297784639A4B27@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <200912141251.55850.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B268164.5080603@feedle.net> <1A34067283074C2788297784639A4B27@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <26c11a640912310312m52943aa6qbdbe2c3e9f88ddc7@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/15 Rod Smallwood : > Hi > ?Well there has been a considerable amount of interest on this one. > I need to clarify one or two things. > > 1. Being a collector of DEC equipment I was trying to do it with an all DEC > line up. > > 2. I only have two DEC Servers both 200/MC. I can down load the program to > them from my VAX with no problems. > > 3. It appears that later models of DEC Server do support Telnet. > ? (Which ones and has anybody in the UK got a spare one?) > > 4. I have already done it but I used a windows internet modem simulator. > ? ?I have loads of VAX's I wonder if it's possible to do Telnet in, serial > RS232 with modem emulation (Assert DCD when connected) out on a VAX. > > 5. There is a non-DEC plan B. (Two Multi-modems back to back on their leased > line ports.) > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > ? ? ?ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS > > EDI Consulting Ltd > > Phone ?0118 971 4436 > Email ? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > > > > I don't have one, but check out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECserver to see which ones will do the trick. Dan From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 31 12:15:31 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:15:31 +0100 Subject: -- Message-ID: Although several hours to go, I would like to wish everybody a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 12:48:12 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:48:12 -0500 Subject: HeathKit microcomputer learning posted on Montreal CL Message-ID: <4affc5e0912311048j4b50ac80y6cc65421ca6b727e@mail.gmail.com> I have no connection to the seller, etc. I'd be interested in it myself but it's a bit too high a price for me - I think the seller is a bit over-optimistic, but if someone is interested, that's not my problem :-) http://montreal.en.craigslist.ca/ele/1531374606.html -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 31 12:39:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:39:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3B69D7.21861.13A0027@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 9 02:55:19 pm Message-ID: > > Can you get BA fasteners? Those were very commonly used on small > > machinery, electrical stuff, etc over here. A lot are still in use. > > They are not hard to get here. > > Several places carry them, including British Screws and Fasteners in > Lyon, NY. I also imagine that some of the hard-bitten British auto > gearheads know where to find a ready supply. Actually, they're not that common in British cars (escept in the electrical parts). Cars tended to uyse BSW/BSF (if old) or UNC/UNF (if newer). Larger UNC/UNF fasteners are not that hard to find over here, but the 'number sizes' certainly are. [Possible UNC supplier] > A quick web search turns up this fellow who seems to carry them in a > wide variety of material, heads and lengths and sells in small > quantity. > > Michael Peters > Surplus Supplies > Caunton > Newark > Notts > NG23 6AJ > > Tel: 01636 636735 > Surplusmpeters at aol.com I must admit I much prefer to order from a web page, or failing that a printed catagloe. Phoning somebody up and saying 'do you have any 6-32 UNC bolts half an inch long, Allen cap head' and then carrying on 'no', 'well what about Pozidriv pan head' and so on, gets boring fast. I also like to compare the prices of various heads/materials/finishes. I might well take a compromise if it was a lot cheaper. That's secondary to the problem of them mishearing what I want and sending the wrong stuff (as has happened too many times to me). Ordering off the web removes that problem, any mistyping of the order code is then certainly my fault. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 31 12:43:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:43:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plus hardcard patents In-Reply-To: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Dec 30, 9 06:59:32 pm Message-ID: > > > US4639863 and US4819153 > > The interesting thing about them is they include the full schematics I am sure most people here know that some of the early HP calculator/computer patents include scheamtics (not always quite the same as the production models, but very useful), and slo commented ROM source listings (and sometimes listings of add-on ROMs, etc) Since the patents rarely mention the name the product was sold under, somebody (not me!) should run a database for products and (useful) patents. -tony From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Dec 31 13:02:29 2009 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:02:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: plus hardcard patents In-Reply-To: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> References: <4B3C1394.5070009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > US4639863 and US4819153 > > The interesting thing about them is they include the full schematics Those are neat! Does anyone have info on the NEC 7810 that's depicted on those? Googling for nec 7810 datasheet doesn't turn up anything useful... Alexey From shumaker at att.net Thu Dec 31 14:18:06 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:18:06 -0500 Subject: HeathKit microcomputer learning posted on Montreal CL In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0912311048j4b50ac80y6cc65421ca6b727e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0912311048j4b50ac80y6cc65421ca6b727e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B3D06FE.2010507@att.net> The ET3400 like the one in the CL photo and ET3400A (more ram and a slightly different cpu) can be had on EPAY fairly regularly for $30-50, up to ~$100 with stacks of (sometimes) original docs, so yes, that is a *bit* optimistic unless there's something really unique about it. Joachim, if you're interested, I have several - send me a note off list. Steve S Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I have no connection to the seller, etc. I'd be interested in it > myself but it's a bit too high a price for me - I think the seller is > a bit over-optimistic, but if someone is interested, that's not my > problem :-) > > http://montreal.en.craigslist.ca/ele/1531374606.html > > From spedraja at ono.com Thu Dec 31 14:21:38 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:21:38 +0100 Subject: -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you ! And same from me to you and everybody in the list. Sergio 2009/12/31 Ed Groenenberg > > Although several hours to go, I would like to wish everybody a > > > HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! > > > Ed > > -- > Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Dec 31 15:19:11 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:19:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: deth specula Message-ID: Does anyone know where one may find material from the band Deth Specula? Yes, this is relevant to cctalk. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 31 16:40:19 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:40:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: deth specula In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Dec 31, 9 01:19:11 pm" Message-ID: <200912312240.nBVMeJDp026720@floodgap.com> > Does anyone know where one may find material from the band Deth Specula? > Yes, this is relevant to cctalk. Although I am familiar with a lot of specula in my line of work, I have not encountered one causing deth [sic]. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Things get complicated when you get past eighteen. -- The Statler Brothers - From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 16:44:26 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:44:26 -0500 Subject: deth specula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Does anyone know where one may find material from the band Deth Specula? > Yes, this is relevant to cctalk. Yes. -- Will From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 31 17:14:09 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:14:09 -0600 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_=91Welco?= =?Windows-1252?Q?me_to_Maci?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ntosh=92_on_?= =?Windows-1252?Q?CNBC_Janua?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ry_4_at_9:?= =?Windows-1252?Q?30PM_ET?= In-Reply-To: <736102.60449.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <286663.58366.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <736102.60449.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I really want to see... Welcome to McIntosh, a history of Hi Fi. MC 275, MC 240, wow. And the tuner amps were cool too MC1700. Recall, that after Jobs picked the name, as McIntosh, he was forced to change it to Mac. McIntosh did not want their name tarnished, or associated with plastic crap. > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:17:27 -0800 > From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: ?Welcome to Macintosh? on CNBC January 4 at 9:30PM ET > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Original link > http://9to5mac.com/welcome_to_mac_tv_debut_30251 > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Dec 31 17:23:43 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:23:43 -0600 Subject: Osborne books Message-ID: <3fcqj5tkf5bg2nd79c2ftdvg8nk6tlllqi@4ax.com> There was some recent interest in Adam Osborne books. I have found one each of the following: "An Introduction to Microcomputers Volume II: Some Real Products, June 1977 Revision" "6800 Programming for Logic Design" Make me an offer. Shipping will be USPS Media Mail from zip 65775. thanks Charles From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 31 17:58:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:58:09 -0800 Subject: Osborne books In-Reply-To: <3fcqj5tkf5bg2nd79c2ftdvg8nk6tlllqi@4ax.com> References: <3fcqj5tkf5bg2nd79c2ftdvg8nk6tlllqi@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4B3CCA11.5064.1CAA005@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2009 at 17:23, Charles Morris wrote: > "An Introduction to Microcomputers Volume II: Some Real Products, June > 1977 Revision" That book is the best of the set--it talks about chips that are only now just a memory to many. I don't find the other volumes nearly as interesting, but maybe that's me. I always did like reading datasheets. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 31 20:52:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:52:25 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: References: <4B3B69D7.21861.13A0027@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 9 02:55:19 pm, Message-ID: <4B3CF2E9.11404.26A2AFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2009 at 18:39, Tony Duell wrote: > I must admit I much prefer to order from a web page, or failing that a > printed catagloe. Phoning somebody up and saying 'do you have any 6-32 > UNC bolts half an inch long, Allen cap head' and then carrying on > 'no', 'well what about Pozidriv pan head' and so on, gets boring fast. Here's the guy's website: http://www.polished-stainless.com/ Personally, I'd rather order by email with confirmation. Oftentimes, online ordering lies about current stock at hand. He appears to carry mostly stainless, but also some zinc-plated hardware. Sorry, no NPB or bright cad plate far as I can tell. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 21:28:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:28:28 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <4B3CF2E9.11404.26A2AFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B3B69D7.21861.13A0027@cclist.sydex.com> <4B3CF2E9.11404.26A2AFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380912311928u4adda040v5e60aa1b780a39c8@mail.gmail.com> In case anyone is interested, it looks like there was a floppy drive and even a modem for the adam. I didn't know either existed. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/coleco-adam/index.html brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 31 22:42:35 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:42:35 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912311928u4adda040v5e60aa1b780a39c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B3B69D7.21861.13A0027@cclist.sydex.com> <4B3CF2E9.11404.26A2AFA@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380912311928u4adda040v5e60aa1b780a39c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2332CF98-15B9-445D-918F-CE2961244034@bellsouth.net> Yeah... they made several different accessories, including the floppy drive and SmartLink modem. There was also a SmartDialer, and a 64k ram expander. They had planned an 80 column adapter and hard drive as well. On Dec 31, 2009, at 9:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > In case anyone is interested, it looks like there was a floppy drive > and even a modem for the adam. I didn't know either existed. > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/coleco-adam/index.html > > brian From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 04:35:38 2009 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:35:38 +1100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=91Welcome_to_Macintosh=92_on_CNBC_January_4_at_?= =?windows-1252?Q?9=3A30PM_ET?= Message-ID: <8ee98aa60912310235h57c52974g4a98f73ac678019b@mail.gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > tell us more about the people who made it. I searched on their site and > cannot find any biographical information. http://www.applematters.com/article/the-apple-matters-interview-josh-rizzo/ "What is Welcome to Macintosh? Welcome to Macintosh is a documentary that mixes history, criticism and an unapologetic revelry of all things Apple." There is more in that interview at AppleMatters about their motivations and approach to the films content. Well worth watching just to listen to Jim Reekes' cutting comments about how difficult it can be to engineer great products. cheers, nigel www.retroComputingTasmania.com From elazzerini at interfree.it Thu Dec 31 08:52:19 2009 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:52:19 +0100 Subject: MICROCORNUCOPIA ISSUES Message-ID: Hi, i want to remember my webpage http://elazzerini.interfree.it on which i collected all i can about the SBC Ferguson BIGBOARD 1 i have. I wish to buy almost the issues 1-20 of the magazine on object. Is there anybody who wish to sell or donate it? This request is ALWAYS valid without expiration date. Thanks Enrico - Pisa (ITALY) From icipasla at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 10:49:36 2009 From: icipasla at gmail.com (Normand Fisher) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 11:49:36 -0500 Subject: Old DEC Power Control 861C Message-ID: *Many thanks, I found a leaking capacitor just as you have described. I've ordered new ones and will soon be able to replace it. I'll let you know if that fixes the problem (It should!).** Normand *>* Old DEC Power Control 861C Hi, *>* *>* looks like I am not getting the posting in my e-mail but my messages do get *>* posted. * This issue came up a few months back. Apparently gmail filters the replies to your own messages somewhere (and not to somewhere sensible!). Perhaps somebody else can rememebr the details. >* *>* I found this replyto my previous message by Tony Duell *>* in *>* the archives. *>* *>* To follow-up, the 861C emits a crackling noise for the first few seconds (20 *>* or so) and then I can hear a relay chattering (very noisy!). *>* *>* Also the light on the front panel is flashing continuously (maybe that's *>* normal.) * old DEC neons tend to flicker randomly (and it's truely random). The basic design is for the mains : Mains in--->filter --->Breaker-+--->Unswitched outs | +--->Contactor (big relay)-> Switched outs The contactor is controlled (in the 861) by a reed relay on the little PCB inside. This has a differentially-wound coil to give the 'ground for on' and 'ground for off' functionality on the 3 pin connector. The reed relay coil is powered by a little transformer/rectifier/capacitor circuit, mostly on the PCB. My first suspicioun is that capacitor. Open it up and look for any electrolytics on the PCB inside. -tony From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 23:16:02 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:16:02 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam name? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380912311928u4adda040v5e60aa1b780a39c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B3B69D7.21861.13A0027@cclist.sydex.com> <4B3CF2E9.11404.26A2AFA@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380912311928u4adda040v5e60aa1b780a39c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0912312116o45f92970g1091f32415cae6ae@mail.gmail.com> Yah, I have the modem, it's a plug in cart/card that goes in to the expansion ports inside the tape unit. The floppy drive you can still pick up, as well as a few other peripherals. Marty On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > In case anyone is interested, it looks like there was a floppy drive > and even a modem for the adam. ?I didn't know either existed. > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/coleco-adam/index.html > > brian >