From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Apr 1 10:16:40 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:16:40 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed Message-ID: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> Hello all, Does anyone have any AUI cables they do not need? I could use about five or six and the shorter, the better. The minimum is 2 meters, I believe. Cables at 2m or 3m would be ideal. This would be a contribution to the "worlds most complex network" that is growing in my basement. Also a source for some thick Ethernet cable would be a big help. Contact me off list if you can help. Jim From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 1 10:32:08 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:32:08 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed References: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> Message-ID: <18899.35064.421120.677345@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Scheef writes: Jim> Also a source for some thick Ethernet cable would be a big help. Plain old RG-8/U should serve if you can't find the real thing. The specs aren't quite the same, but the most critical ones (impedance, inner conductor and outer jacket sizes) match. Also, plain RG-8 doesn't have the 2.5 meter stripes, so you have to measure out multiples of 2.5 meters for the transceiver placement. (Alternatively, for small networks you can ignore the placement rule. For large networks it matters.) paul From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 1 10:35:20 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:35:20 -0400 Subject: Looking for manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card Message-ID: <49D389B8.9000405@comcast.net> Anyone have a manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card ? All the sites that I bookmarked come up empty. I'm trying to fix the one I have here. It's also missing a chip at U5 I don't have a photo of the card either to determine the part#, just the early revision model. thanks ! =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From drb at msu.edu Wed Apr 1 10:43:28 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:43:28 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:16:40 EDT.) <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> References: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> Message-ID: <200904011543.n31FhSj3030105@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Does anyone have any AUI cables they do not need? I could use about five > or six and the shorter, the better. The minimum is 2 meters, I > believe. Cables at 2m or 3m would be ideal. This would be a contribution > to the "worlds most complex network" that is growing in my basement. If you can't scare up enough donations, these folks seem to have fairly cheap ones: http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=aui&x=0&y=0 De From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Apr 1 10:48:13 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For those Silicon Graphics people out there: http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/04/01/end-of-an-era-rackable-systems-to-buy-silicon-graphics-for-25-million-sgic-holders-likely-to-get-nothing/ http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/keyDevelopments?symbol=SGIC.W×tamp=20090401114800&rpc=66 Rackable Systems, Inc. Announces Agreement To Acquire Silicon Graphics Inc 7:48am EDT Rackable Systems, Inc. announced its agreement to acquire substantially all the assets of Silicon Graphics, Inc. (SGI) for approximately $25 million in cash, subject to adjustment in certain circumstances, plus the assumption of certain liabilities associated with the acquired assets. Silicon Graphics, Inc. Files For Chapter 11 Bankruptcy-Reuters 6:44am EDT Reuters reported that Silicon Graphics, Inc. filed for bankruptcy protection in a New York court. The Company listed assets of $390.5 million and total debt of $526.5 million in its Chapter 11 filing. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 12:16:27 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:16:27 -0500 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > Rackable Systems, Inc. Announces Agreement To Acquire Silicon Graphics Inc > 7:48am EDT Hmm, too early to say whether that's a shame or not. I mean it's sad of course, but it remains to be seen what the new folk do with the assets. I think I saw something the other day about IBM looking to acquire Sun, but I didn't chase that up - there's going to be none of the old names left soon, though! cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 12:57:06 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:57:06 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think I saw something the other day about IBM looking to acquire Sun, but > I didn't chase that up - there's going to be none of the old names left > soon, though! IBM not an old name? -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 1 12:57:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:57:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Mar 31, 9 02:33:31 pm Message-ID: > Yes, and if you are rational, and enter your real maximum bid, you will lose > the auction to someone who bids higher than your maximum. If you go back > later and change your maximum, then I would consider that irrational. I wouldn't, under one specific case (which is about the only time I do increase my maximum bid). That is when I've found out more about the item on sale and think it is actually worth more to me that I've already bid. Then I will enter a higher bif whether or not I've already been outbid (or for that matter whether or not anyone else has bid at all). Ans yes, that's how I normally act on E-bay. If I see something I am interested in, I enter a maximum bid of what it's worth to me. If somebody outbids me, fine, they're prepared to pay more for it. And I don't increase my maximum bid even if there are still days to go. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:04:27 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:04:27 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I think I saw something the other day about IBM looking to acquire Sun, but >> I didn't chase that up - there's going to be none of the old names left >> soon, though! > > IBM not an old name? That's what I was thinking... IBM is about the oldest name left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? Peace... Sridhar From evan at snarc.net Wed Apr 1 13:14:54 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:14:54 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> >>> IBM is about the oldest name left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:17:49 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:17:49 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> Message-ID: > That's what I was thinking... ?IBM is about the oldest name left in the > computer industry. ?There's Unisys still around, barely. ?Groupe Bull. Who > else? NEC, athough their older machines are pretty obscure. Same with Hitachi. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:19:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:19:20 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: > You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. Too new. -- Will From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 1 13:20:30 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:20:30 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: >> IBM not an old name? Sridhar> That's what I was thinking... IBM is about the oldest name Sridhar> left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, Sridhar> barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? I suppose Bull made computers, sort of. There's Philips, though I believe they quit the business some time ago. What about Siemens? That's older than IBM. I used one of theirs, years ago... paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:17:59 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:17:59 -0500 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D3AFD7.4070600@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I think I saw something the other day about IBM looking to acquire Sun, but >> I didn't chase that up - there's going to be none of the old names left >> soon, though! > > IBM not an old name? Heh, of course - I should have put an 'almost' in there (my brain did, but my fingers did not :-) We've seen many big players vanish in the last decade or 10-15 years though, and if Sun go then that doesn't leave much left. I suspect IBM are in a good position, being one of the surviving few - but then I'd always thought the same about Sun... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:33:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:33:32 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: > I suppose Bull made computers, sort of. ?There's Philips, though I > believe they quit the business some time ago. > > What about Siemens? ?That's older than IBM. ?I used one of theirs, > years ago... I think Siemens just badge-engineers machines now. At least the big stuff is actually Fujitsu inside, I think. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:36:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:36:09 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3AFD7.4070600@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3AFD7.4070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Heh, of course - I should have put an 'almost' in there (my brain did, but > my fingers did not :-) Well, we knew what you meant, but we had to be picky anyway... > We've seen many big players vanish in the last decade or 10-15 years though, > and if Sun go then that doesn't leave much left. I suspect IBM are in a good > position, being one of the surviving few - but then I'd always thought the > same about Sun... It would be a shame to see Sun go - I hope the DOJ would kill that merger off. But, huge corporations coming and going is just a way of life. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 1 13:36:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:36:31 -0700 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com> NCR (1881) is still around, after being acquired, then spun-off again by AT&T. No computers per se, but check scanners, ATMs, POS, and the like. I suppose you could also include Teradata (spinoff of NCR). --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 1 13:42:00 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > Christian Liendo wrote: >> Rackable Systems, Inc. Announces Agreement To Acquire Silicon Graphics Inc >> 7:48am EDT > > Hmm, too early to say whether that's a shame or not. I mean it's sad of > course, but it remains to be seen what the new folk do with the assets. SGI ceased to be relavent when they stoped producing MIPS-based workstations. Had they ported IRIX to Itanium, they would have been able to differentiate themselves from the rest of the marketplace. Of course we've seen how well that is working for Sun. :-( > I think I saw something the other day about IBM looking to acquire Sun, but I > didn't chase that up - there's going to be none of the old names left soon, > though! I was really saddened when I read that recently, but not surprised. Suddenly the UNIX market seems really small. You have AIX from IBM, HP-UX from HP, Mac OS X from Apple, and Linux on just about everything. The OS market as a whole isn't *THAT* much larger, except for either serious niche OS's or legacy OS's. :-( Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:51:05 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:51:05 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > NCR (1881) is still around, after being acquired, then spun-off again > by AT&T. ?No computers per se, but check scanners, ATMs, POS, and the > like. ?I suppose you could also include Teradata (spinoff of NCR). Well, yes, but this could get hairy, figuring out who to include. You could say the same thing about GE, for example - they still make computers for their own products, but no computers per se. And then there is the whole defense industry. General Mills? Rockwell-Collins? I would say to keep it confined to older corporations that made general purpose computers a long time ago, and still make general purpose computers today (and by that I would mean anything from micros to supers). -- Will From marvin at west.net Wed Apr 1 14:02:45 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:02:45 -0700 Subject: Keyboard Kache in Kalifornia Message-ID: <49D3BA55.5050900@west.net> > From: s shumaker > What's the location for this stuff? Oxnard is about 45 minutes south of where I live. If someone REALLY wants this stuff, I could stop by to pick up the stuff and drop it off somewhere to be packed and shipped (I just don't have the time to pack and ship that much "stuff".) From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Apr 1 14:22:47 2009 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:22:47 +0100 Subject: AUI cables needed References: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> Message-ID: <8E6BE172830F499F91593FEA2724C35B@XPBOX> Depends where you are. I have plenty, but postage to the USA would be more than buying new ones....... Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Scheef" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: AUI cables needed > Hello all, > > Does anyone have any AUI cables they do not need? I could use about five > or six and the shorter, the better. The minimum is 2 meters, I believe. > Cables at 2m or 3m would be ideal. This would be a contribution to the > "worlds most complex network" that is growing in my basement. > > Also a source for some thick Ethernet cable would be a big help. > > Contact me off list if you can help. > > Jim > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2033 - Release Date: 03/31/09 13:05:00 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 1 14:21:41 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > >> IBM not an old name? > > Sridhar> That's what I was thinking... IBM is about the oldest name > Sridhar> left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, > Sridhar> barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? > > I suppose Bull made computers, sort of. Sort of!?!?!?! They're who bought Honeywell's computer division, and they make systems running GCOS-8 (though it runs on 64-bit Itanium 2 systems now rather than 36-bit DPS-8 varients). Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:51:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:51:46 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <49D3C5D2.8090803@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> IBM is about the oldest name left in the computer industry. There's > Unisys still around, barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? > > You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. Which didn't get into computers *all that early*. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:53:10 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:53:10 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >> IBM not an old name? > > Sridhar> That's what I was thinking... IBM is about the oldest name > Sridhar> left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, > Sridhar> barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? > > I suppose Bull made computers, sort of. There's Philips, though I > believe they quit the business some time ago. What do you mean by "sort of"? Bull is the scion of the whole GE->Honeywell->Bull thing. > What about Siemens? That's older than IBM. I used one of theirs, > years ago... They were making electronics, but when did they start making computers? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:56:33 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:56:33 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <49D3C6F1.5000508@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Sort of!?!?!?! They're who bought Honeywell's computer division, and > they make systems running GCOS-8 (though it runs on 64-bit Itanium 2 > systems now rather than 36-bit DPS-8 varients). You can still buy a DPS9000 new from the factory. It'll cost you, though. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:59:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:59:48 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> Message-ID: > What do you mean by "sort of"? ?Bull is the scion of the whole > GE->Honeywell->Bull thing. Bull was also a player in the pre-computer punch card business. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:04:50 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:04:50 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D3C8E2.2080006@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> What do you mean by "sort of"? Bull is the scion of the whole >> GE->Honeywell->Bull thing. > > Bull was also a player in the pre-computer punch card business. Indeed they were. Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:08:00 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:08:00 -0500 Subject: tractor feed supplies Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904011308q33d8d958k9a946ac3a8cfc8cf@mail.gmail.com> While picking over the remains of a local office depot that was going out of business, I managed to get a 500 sheet box of tractor feed printer paper for $3 (last one). I'm surprised they stocked it. Although they had box upon box of 2, 3, and 4 part tractor feed paper, so I guess that's the target audience. All I need now are tractor feed labels for 3.5" floppy disks. Does anyone know of a good source? brian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 1 15:10:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:10:37 -0700 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49D367CD.15295.3D4CB957@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2009 at 14:51, William Donzelli wrote: > I would say to keep it confined to older corporations that made > general purpose computers a long time ago, and still make general > purpose computers today (and by that I would mean anything from micros > to supers). More to the point, who of the original "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" still survives? Snow White, of course, but how many of the seven little guys are still in business making general-purpose computers? (Burroughs, CDC, GE, Honeywell, NCR, RCA and Univac). And some others, are just a facade (Packard Bell) and not the original company. Or Westinghouse Digital. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 1 15:13:55 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 1, 9 11:42:00 am" Message-ID: <200904012013.n31KDtbF014348@floodgap.com> > Suddenly the UNIX market seems really small. You have AIX from IBM, HP-UX > from HP, Mac OS X from Apple, and Linux on just about everything. The OS > market as a whole isn't *THAT* much larger, except for either serious niche > OS's or legacy OS's. :-( And HP/UX is probably next to go. My guess, anyway, after the final nail comes in PA-RISC's coffin. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Cleanliness is next to impossible. ----------------------------------------- From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 1 15:37:53 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:37:53 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18899.53409.191063.960725@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: >> What about Siemens? That's older than IBM. I used one of theirs, >> years ago... Sridhar> They were making electronics, but when did they start making Sridhar> computers? I don't know. I used a Siemens minicomputer around 1972. It was driving an ultra-accurate flatbed plotter (with servo motors, not steppers). The only detail I remember about it is that it used hex, with digits 0-0 and B-G. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:46:13 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:46:13 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D367CD.15295.3D4CB957@cclist.sydex.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com>, <49D367CD.15295.3D4CB957@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49D3D295.7030509@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I would say to keep it confined to older corporations that made >> general purpose computers a long time ago, and still make general >> purpose computers today (and by that I would mean anything from micros >> to supers). > > More to the point, who of the original "Snow White and the Seven > Dwarfs" still survives? Snow White, of course, but how many of the > seven little guys are still in business making general-purpose > computers? (Burroughs, CDC, GE, Honeywell, NCR, RCA and Univac). Burroughs + Univac (Sperry) = Unisys CDC was chopped up. Some of the pieces survive. They switched from high-performance computing to storage sometime in the '80s, and that group became Imprimis, which was bought out by Seagate at some point. Their business services division still exists and is called Ceridian, I believe. Their financial services division became Travelers Group (as in Travelers Insurance), which is now Citigroup (as in the gigantic bank). (Although the insurance-specific businesses were spun back off at some point. Suitness.) GE and Honeywell's computer businesses were sold to Groupe Bull, where they survive. They still make a very small number of traditional mainframes, but most of their customers now use systems under emulation on Itanium processors. (Bull NovaScale) NCR exited the computer business not all that long ago, while they were still an AT&T division, I believe. RCA abandoned their computers and sold the division to Sperry sometime in the early '70s. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:47:14 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:47:14 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18899.53409.191063.960725@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> <18899.53409.191063.960725@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <49D3D2D2.2000506@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > I don't know. I used a Siemens minicomputer around 1972. It was > driving an ultra-accurate flatbed plotter (with servo motors, not > steppers). Was that a Nixdorf at that point? > The only detail I remember about it is that it used hex, with digits > 0-0 and B-G. Weirdness. Peace... Sridhar From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 1 15:52:47 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:52:47 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com> <49D367CD.15295.3D4CB957@cclist.sydex.com> <49D3D295.7030509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18899.54303.250866.69733@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> CDC was chopped up. Some of the pieces survive. They Sridhar> switched from high-performance computing to storage sometime Sridhar> in the '80s, and that group became Imprimis, which was Sridhar> bought out by Seagate at some point. Their business services Sridhar> division still exists and is called Ceridian, I believe. Sridhar> Their financial services division became Travelers Group (as Sridhar> in Travelers Insurance), which is now Citigroup (as in the Sridhar> gigantic bank). (Although the insurance-specific businesses Sridhar> were spun back off at some point. Suitness.) Some piece of CDC now belongs to British Telecom; before then it was called Syntegra. That's where the mainframe software (like NOS) ended up. They still have it, and they can still supply it, amazingly. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 1 16:09:46 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:09:46 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> <18899.53409.191063.960725@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3D2D2.2000506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18899.55322.893932.384584@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Paul Koning wrote: >> I don't know. I used a Siemens minicomputer around 1972. It was >> driving an ultra-accurate flatbed plotter (with servo motors, not >> steppers). Sridhar> Was that a Nixdorf at that point? I remember the name Nixdorf, but I don't remember it being attached to that machine. One interesting bit of trivia: it was used to draw designs for postage stamps in Holland, circa 1972 or so. The person who took credit for that (who is not the person who did the work) later went on to design much of the paper money for Holland, back when they had real design instead of the fakery you now see on the Euro. It lived in the TU Eindhoven Mech.Eng. department. The main use of the machine was to draw shapes for objects that would then be machined on a milling machine that had a line-following optical system on it. Sort of like CAD but older: a computer controlling a drawing machine, and then the resulting drawing in turn controls the machine tool. paul From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 1 17:15:08 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:15:08 -0600 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:42:00 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > SGI ceased to be relavent when they stoped producing MIPS-based > workstations. SGI ceased to be relevant when they gave up trying to make graphics products for PCs. NVidia and ATI ate their lunch by gobbling up all the low to mid range demand for graphics, leaving only the very high end visualization systems for SGI. That's enough to run a company, but not enough to float a company the size of SGI at the time. > Had they ported IRIX to Itanium, they would have been able to > differentiate themselves from the rest of the marketplace. Of course > we've seen how well that is working for Sun. :-( This confuses SGI with a generic computing platform vendor. Of course, one coudl argue that SGI confused itself for a generic computing vendor. SGI never made the transition to PCs. Once they gave up attempting to do things for PC graphics, their talent was bled off by NVidia and ATI and the end was already fortold by that time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 1 17:15:43 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:15:43 -0600 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:51:46 -0400. <49D3C5D2.8090803@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <49D3C5D2.8090803 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. > > Which didn't get into computers *all that early*. Only 20 years earlier than SGI. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 1 17:17:45 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:17:45 -0600 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:32:08 -0400. <18899.35064.421120.677345@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: In article <18899.35064.421120.677345 at pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com>, Paul Koning writes: > inner conductor and outer jacket sizes) match. Also, plain RG-8 > doesn't have the 2.5 meter stripes, so you have to measure out > multiples of 2.5 meters for the transceiver placement. What's the significance of the 2.5m interval? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 1 17:44:36 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:44:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card Message-ID: <49D3EE54.2060401@comcast.net> Anyone have a manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card ? All the sites that I bookmarked come up empty. I'm trying to fix the one I have here. It's also missing a chip at U5 I don't have a photo of the card either to determine the part#, just the early revision model. thanks ! =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 1 18:11:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:11:52 -0700 Subject: Looking for manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card In-Reply-To: <49D3EE54.2060401@comcast.net> References: <49D3EE54.2060401@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49D39248.31060.3DF29E65@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2009 at 18:44, Dan Roganti wrote: > Anyone have a manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card ? All > the sites that I bookmarked come up empty. I'm trying to fix the one I > have here. It's also missing a chip at U5 I don't have a photo of the > card either to determine the part#, just the early revision model. A google search turns up this guy who seems to be a MicroAngelo expert: http://www.citilink.com/~delscott/ Also, there's a high-resolution image here: http://gallery.brouhaha.com/d/8618-1/img_0266.jpg That makes U5 look like a 7490. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 1 18:12:45 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3D295.7030509@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com>, <49D367CD.15295.3D4CB957@cclist.sydex.com> <49D3D295.7030509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > GE and Honeywell's computer businesses were sold to Groupe Bull, where they > survive. They still make a very small number of traditional mainframes, but > most of their customers now use systems under emulation on Itanium > processors. (Bull NovaScale) Back in January of '94 I was involved with moving off of DPS-6 Minicomputer hardware running GCOS-6 onto HP-9000's running GCOS-6 under an emulator running on HP-UX v7.something. Prior to that I worked at a site running on DPS-8's. A part of me likes the fact that GCOS-8 is still around, another part is horrified at the level of vendor lock in. It was not a "user friendly" environment. Zane From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 1 18:32:00 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:32:00 +0100 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D3F970.1090702@dunnington.plus.com> Richard wrote: > In article <18899.35064.421120.677345 at pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com>, > Paul Koning writes: > >> inner conductor and outer jacket sizes) match. Also, plain RG-8 >> doesn't have the 2.5 meter stripes, so you have to measure out >> multiples of 2.5 meters for the transceiver placement. > > What's the significance of the 2.5m interval? It's some prime-number-fraction (17 IIRC but it's been a while) of the wavelength of the data bits (and it's too late tonight to work it out[1]) The idea is to ensure that the interference effects introduced by the discontinuities of the taps are not additive. [1] I've just got back to my room from the 25th anniversary dinner of JANET, the Joint Academic NETwork which is sort of the UK equivalent of Arpanet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 1 18:43:02 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:43:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card In-Reply-To: <49D39248.31060.3DF29E65@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49D3EE54.2060401@comcast.net> <49D39248.31060.3DF29E65@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49D3FC06.2030504@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Apr 2009 at 18:44, Dan Roganti wrote: > > >> Anyone have a manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card ? All >> the sites that I bookmarked come up empty. I'm trying to fix the one I >> have here. It's also missing a chip at U5 I don't have a photo of the >> card either to determine the part#, just the early revision model. >> > > A google search turns up this guy who seems to be a MicroAngelo > expert: > > http://www.citilink.com/~delscott/ > > Also, there's a high-resolution image here: > > http://gallery.brouhaha.com/d/8618-1/img_0266.jpg > > That makes U5 look like a 7490. > > Yes, I found his website before, but I haven't rcvd a reply over several months ago from him. I can always try again in case my email was lost in the bit bucket. That photo really helps - I somehow overlooked that link - thanks ! I contacted the web owner there too in case he might have one. So I'm still on the lookout. =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Apr 1 18:50:15 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:50:15 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 01 April 2009 02:20:30 pm Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: > >> > >> IBM not an old name? > > Sridhar> That's what I was thinking... IBM is about the oldest name > Sridhar> left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, > Sridhar> barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? > > I suppose Bull made computers, sort of. Didn't they buy Zenith Data Systems though? > There's Philips, though I believe they quit the business some time ago. > > What about Siemens? That's older than IBM. I used one of theirs, > years ago... I didn't know they made computers. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Apr 1 18:56:00 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:56:00 -0400 Subject: Wanted: PC11 interface Message-ID: <49D3FF10.9090004@nktelco.net> My PDP11/40 had a high speed paper tape reader/punch when it was new (PC04 I think). I have the hardware, but not the Unibus card. I think it failed and was replace with a Facit punch with a serial interface. So, does anybody have a M7810 they want to get rid of? That is the PC11 interface. I don't know if that is a quad SPC board or a dual that needs a M105 address board and an M7821 interrupt board. I think it needs the extra boards. Any lead or information is welcome... -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 1 19:13:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:13:18 -0700 Subject: Looking for manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card In-Reply-To: <49D3FC06.2030504@comcast.net> References: <49D3EE54.2060401@comcast.net>, <49D39248.31060.3DF29E65@cclist.sydex.com>, <49D3FC06.2030504@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49D3A0AE.26911.3E2AAF0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2009 at 19:43, Dan Roganti wrote: > That photo really helps - I somehow overlooked that link - thanks ! I > contacted the web owner there too in case he might have one. So I'm > still on the lookout. What struck me about the chip at U5 is that it's a DM7490AN, not an LS90. (or even an S90 or F90). I wonder if this was intentional or what was simply on hand. --Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 1 20:23:10 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:23:10 -0400 Subject: Looking for manual/schematics for Microangelo MA520 S-100 card In-Reply-To: <49D3A0AE.26911.3E2AAF0E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49D3EE54.2060401@comcast.net>, <49D39248.31060.3DF29E65@cclist.sydex.com>, <49D3FC06.2030504@comcast.net> <49D3A0AE.26911.3E2AAF0E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49D4137E.5030305@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Apr 2009 at 19:43, Dan Roganti wrote: > > >> That photo really helps - I somehow overlooked that link - thanks ! I >> contacted the web owner there too in case he might have one. So I'm >> still on the lookout. >> > > What struck me about the chip at U5 is that it's a DM7490AN, not an > LS90. (or even an S90 or F90). I wonder if this was intentional or > what was simply on hand > I'm not sure yet, but it's not the first time-- I see this in many of the early stuff that I work on. I always keep a bunch of the 7490 in my parts bin - just in case- . But what's also strange is that his photo is missing Q1, Q2 while the resistors are still onboard--because it's connected to J15, which pins 1,2 are normally connected via a small trace(difficult to distinguish in the photo) Plus mine has a mod with another 2 transistors wired into the pads of connector JC from U3 and U4 to connector JB. So I hope I can decipher this once I find the manual. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Apr 1 21:30:19 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:30:19 -0400 Subject: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <49D0F8EB.4608.33CB6AD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49CFE62E.2060406@jetnet.ab.ca> <49D158FE.8040105@nktelco.net> <49D0F8EB.4608.33CB6AD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200904020230.n322UJga015777@rickmurphy.net> At 07:52 PM 3/30/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Money orders are designed as "bearer" instruments, which is why your >bank doesn't like them. A cashier's or certified check is far safer-- >the check can be verified with a telephone call. Not so with a money >order. Before accepting this advice, please plug "fake cashiers check" into Google. Cashier's checks and certified checks are no better than any other type of check, and are frequently fraudulent these days. US banking laws work against us as banks are required to make the funds available in a small number of days while it may take months for a bad check to be detected. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 1 22:01:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:01:44 -0700 Subject: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <200904020230.n322UJga015777@rickmurphy.net> References: , <49D0F8EB.4608.33CB6AD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <200904020230.n322UJga015777@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <49D3C828.22452.3EC5108A@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2009 at 22:30, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 07:52 PM 3/30/2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Money orders are designed as "bearer" instruments, which is why your > >bank doesn't like them. A cashier's or certified check is far > >safer-- the check can be verified with a telephone call. Not so with > >a money order. > Cashier's checks and certified checks are no better than any other > type of check, and are frequently fraudulent these days. US banking > laws work against us as banks are required to make the funds available > in a small number of days while it may take months for a bad check to > be detected. I should have said "the check can be verified with a telephone call to the issuing bank". The bank wrote the check and collected the funds; they should be able to tell you if it's legit. Assuming, of course, that the bank is a legitimate US-chartered bank. Foreign banks are another kettle of fish entirely. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 22:27:27 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:27:27 -0500 Subject: Wanted: PC11 interface In-Reply-To: <49D3FF10.9090004@nktelco.net> References: <49D3FF10.9090004@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <624966d60904012027v5b694d88ncafb8542d7876962@mail.gmail.com> The M7810 is a quad board. I just got my floors in and will be moving in for the next few months (years?) I know where mine should be, and will try to look for it when I can and come up with a price. Are you in the U.S.? If you don't hear from me for a while, feel free to bug me about it. Paul On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > My PDP11/40 had a high speed paper tape reader/punch when it was new (PC04 > I think). I have the hardware, but not the Unibus card. I think it failed > and was replace with a Facit punch with a serial interface. > > So, does anybody have a M7810 they want to get rid of? That is the PC11 > interface. I don't know if that is a quad SPC board or a dual that needs a > M105 address board and an M7821 interrupt board. I think it needs the extra > boards. > > Any lead or information is welcome... > > -chuck > > > > > > > From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 22:38:54 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:38:54 -0400 Subject: OT: composite video on 1/8" connector Message-ID: <7d3530220904012038u5af587f9h9f3512db5a3f89a5@mail.gmail.com> This is quite off-topic, but we have such a knowledgeable group here I thought I'd ask: I just bought a pair of MyVu Shades 301, a head mounted display system. However, I don't see the RCA connectors I was expecting, but there *is* a cable that says it goes to "standard DVD players". It has a green stereo 1/8" plug, which I assume is audio, and then a yellow two-conductor plug. I'm guessing this last one is composite video, but I'm just not sure. Have any of you seen this? I figure if I can't find an adapter at Radio Shack I can probably whip one up in a few minutes, but I wanted to get your opinions before I go messing around. John Floren -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 22:46:46 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:46:46 -0400 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm going through a box of DEC boards and I found a DELQA, probably my only one, and in the box is a cab kit with "DEQNA" stenciled below the AUI connector (DEC P/N 7-21202-1K). Will it work or do I need a DELQA-specific cable? I have very little Qbus Ethernet experience, or Unibus Ethernet experience... or for that matter, VAXBI Ethernet experience - in fact, the only DEC machines I've ever worked with that _had_ Ethernet were desktop/busless systems (uVAX 2000, MIPS machines...) Any and all advice or suggestions welcome. I remember that there was a driver issue/VMS version issue between DEQNAs and DELQAs (and DESQAs?) but since I never had to set any of them up when they were new, the details have eluded my memory. Thanks, -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Apr 1 22:52:34 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:52:34 -0700 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915287C9-3EB6-41F4-8748-B40153F02277@shiresoft.com> AFAIK there is no difference. But then I've only been working with the Unibus versions. TTFN - Guy On Apr 1, 2009, at 8:46 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm going through a box of DEC boards and I found a DELQA, probably my > only one, and in the box is a cab kit with "DEQNA" stenciled below the > AUI connector (DEC P/N 7-21202-1K). Will it work or do I need a > DELQA-specific cable? > > I have very little Qbus Ethernet experience, or Unibus Ethernet > experience... or for that matter, VAXBI Ethernet experience - in fact, > the only DEC machines I've ever worked with that _had_ Ethernet were > desktop/busless systems (uVAX 2000, MIPS machines...) Any and all > advice or suggestions welcome. > > I remember that there was a driver issue/VMS version issue between > DEQNAs and DELQAs (and DESQAs?) but since I never had to set any of > them up when they were new, the details have eluded my memory. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Apr 1 22:45:55 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 05:45:55 +0200 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 07:50:15PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 01 April 2009 02:20:30 pm Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > >> > > >> IBM not an old name? > > > > Sridhar> That's what I was thinking... IBM is about the oldest name > > Sridhar> left in the computer industry. There's Unisys still around, > > Sridhar> barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? > > > > I suppose Bull made computers, sort of. > > Didn't they buy Zenith Data Systems though? > > > There's Philips, though I believe they quit the business some time ago. > > > > What about Siemens? That's older than IBM. I used one of theirs, > > years ago... > > I didn't know they made computers. Oh yes, and made as in "built their own stuff" not as in "slapped their label on it". Examples: - BS2000 mainframes: basically a slightly modified S/390 hardware with something similiar to OS/390 (I only saw that stuff from a distance), dead - SINIX Unix servers: Their own hardware architecture, MIPS CPUs and a (IMHO) truly horrible Unix, dead - various x86 PCs, using their own board designs and production lines (IIRC still in production) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 23:13:37 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:13:37 -0400 Subject: How can one test a DEC M9313 "Unibus Exerciser and Terminator" (UET)? Message-ID: Hi, all, Also in the same box with the DELQA was an M9313 UET module. It reminds me that I have a loooongstanding problem with my VAX8300... the Unibus interface (DWBUA) has been a problem since I moved the 8300 to my house 15 years ago. The machine works perfectly sans Unibus. It worked in its former location with Unibus. When I first got it home, I fried the DWBUA module - literally. There was a cracked IC and a burned trace. Some sort of cabling problem. I have replaced the cables, replaced the module (so except for the paddle card, pretty much a new system), and the last time I fired it up, I didn't get smoke, but it didn't come up as a Unibus. I have all the standard install docs and such. The normal arrangement is to have either some sort of DD-11 Unibus backplane in your BA32 CPU chassis *or* have long cables off the back of the VAXBI backplane to an external BA-11 with a standard DD-11DK or DD-11CK. I have the external BA11, the same one that was used with the 8300 in its former home. The "Unibus in" spot is filled with a paddle card that accepts the 4 cables from the user-defined area under the DWBUA module. The Unibus terminator *must* be a UET. The firmware on the DWBUA looks for it. I can tell from inspecting the BIIC registers on the DWBUA that my module is unhappy somehow with the UET. I have, now, 4 UETs. I think the last time I tested things, one or two gave me different BIIC-register results than the rest, suggesting that there are actual hardware problems with one or more of my UETs. The one I found tonight has probably not ever been plugged into a backplane by me, given what else I found in the box (*nothing* in the box has been plugged in since the box came home). What would help me increase my confidence about my testing procedure is how to actually *test* a UET. I have enough different sorts of hardware that I don't think I would have to get anything new to set up any sort of software test. I have close at hand an 11/04 and an 11/750, and can lay hands on various Unibus PDP-11s and an 11/750 without leaving town. The piece of the puzzle that I'm missing (and always have) is how to test it. AFAIK, it's a terminator and several loopback registers, but the specific nature of them is unknown to me. I presume that the termination is likely to be robust and probably not faulty - it's probably a problem with a bus driver/receiver or perhaps with some sort of internal register that the DWBUA firmware is writing to or reading back. There are a number of DEC-specific ICs, a lot of 74LS parts, some Nat'l Semi and AMD parts, and a few DIP resistor packs. There's one empty 24-pin 0.6" socket (which is empty on all the UETs I've seen, so it's either some sort of option or a test plug for some other use), and no jumpers what so ever. There are nine 8641 Unibus interface chips, but fortunately, I have a stack of those from COMBOARD spares. There are five DC013s, but I have those from COMBOARDs, too (two per board, socketed, thankfully). Before anyone suggests grant jumpers, I used to make dual-height grant modules. I always populate every slot with one so I don't have to worry about NPR (and because they are easier to remove than genuine G727 knucklebusters). I could probably figure out whatever I needed to from the UET maintenance printset (which I don't have handy, unfortunately), but I'm hoping that someone on the list has some experience that goes beyond just plugging one in and seeing no errors from the system. Perhaps someone has read a Field Service bulletin that talks about this module and perhaps they remember some useful fragment of the title or has a copy of it handy. I don't *think* either the primary or secondary Unibus adapters for the 11/750 care if there's a UET or even if they can directly tell there's a UET, and that's the system I have the most experience with. There may be some simple sort of ODT sequence that I could tickle the Unibus with and see clearly that "bit 4 is stuck" or something like that. If not, reading diagnostic source could be revealing about how it interacts with the UET registers. Thanks for any helpful tips and pointers. I miss having the Unibus on the 8300 - I can run and test COMBOARDs on it, which is one of the reasons I want to get it working - so I can go through the pile of stuff in the basement and scrap out the boards that didn't work then and aren't likely to work now. I have a few VAXBI COMBOARDs still, so one "fun" thing one can do is hook any two boards back-to-back through a (synchronous) modem eliminator (one board is told to be the "central", the other is the "remote") and move files around and exercise the software by pumping bytes from one process to another - you don't "need" a second machine to demonstrate HASP or 3780 (though it can be easier to explain when data are actually *moving* from one CPU to another). -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 23:24:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:24:00 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > Oh yes, and made as in "built their own stuff" not as in "slapped their > label on it". "Made", yes - these days Siemens machines are Fujis inside. Not a surprise - Siemens and Fujitsu have been sleeping together for many years. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 1 23:37:42 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:37:42 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com><18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com><200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net><20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <738CAC8822214286938818F96D68EE72@game> I don't suppose this was an April 1st joke? Not that SGI has a market cap over a few million lately anyway. From g-wright at att.net Thu Apr 2 00:16:50 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 05:16:50 +0000 Subject: HP 3000 micro gx booting MPE/V, Help >>>> Message-ID: <040220090516.644.49D44A41000AABD00000028422230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Any Hp Mpe folks left out there I have non working 3000/37s with possibly good drives and a 3000 micro GX that works but has a bad drive. I have tried to boot the micro GX from the 3000-37 drives and get this far. ---------------------------------------- Cold Boot > HP 32033G.B2.02 Performing a Coldstart Following Volumes not found MH7957U1 List Volume tables ? ---------------------------- Seems to freeze after that. It does this on 2 different drives. Is this even possible to do ??? Does anyone have a OS tape for one of these ??? and which manuals cover the boot menu and/or startup. I would like to get both going but the 3000-37's have dead mother boards. Stan Sieler, are you still around. Seems like every search I do comes up with your name and advice. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 2 01:59:01 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:59:01 -0700 Subject: Looking for Radius Rocket software key... Message-ID: <49D46235.1070108@mail.msu.edu> I picked up a Radius "Stage II" Rocket, which appears to be a rather nifty "accelerator" of sorts which is more or less a second 68040 mac on a nubus card. I've found the necessary software to drive it, RocketShare 1.3.1, but it wants a serial number from me before it'll start up... I don't have the original software disks, but I'd like to think owning the physical card would grant me rights to it, since they were only sold together. Anyone out there have a serial for this they can share? (Why would software that requires possession of a $3500 card in order to do anything require a serial number? Gah...) Thanks, Josh From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 2 02:59:46 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:59:46 +0200 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20090402095946.94277f40.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 05:45:55 +0200 Alexander Schreiber wrote: > - SINIX Unix servers: Their own hardware architecture, MIPS CPUs and > a (IMHO) truly horrible Unix, dead The SINIX machines started with NS32[05]32 CPUs. Later they used i80486. Note: This was not a PeeCee. It was basicly the same machine architecture as the NS32[05]32 machines but with the i80486 shoehorned in. The MIPS machines came after that and at least some of them where ARC compliant. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 2 03:10:02 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 04:10:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for Radius Rocket software key... References: <49D46235.1070108@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 2:59 AM Subject: Looking for Radius Rocket software key... >I picked up a Radius "Stage II" Rocket, which appears to be a rather nifty >"accelerator" of sorts which is more or less a second 68040 mac on a nubus >card. > I've found the necessary software to drive it, RocketShare 1.3.1, but it > wants a serial number from me before it'll start up... I don't have the > original software disks, but I'd like to think owning the physical card > would grant me rights to it, since they were only sold together. Anyone > out there have a serial for this they can share? > > (Why would software that requires possession of a $3500 card in order to > do anything require a serial number? Gah...) > > Thanks, > Josh The original Rockets were shipped with Rocketware, that software took over the machine like a normal accelerator would. When Radius came out with the Stage 2 Rocket they only let you use RocketShare which setup the addon as a second computer with its own OS running on a virtual HD (you could have as many running as you had rockets installed). They sold Rocketshare to the people who owned the original Rockets as well. I at one time had 2 040/25 rockets running on a IIfx for kicks (since taken out). Basically they didn't want the old users to pirate RocketShare so they did the serial number thing. Its all about money. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 2 03:30:03 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:30:03 +0200 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <561871.52504.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3A16B.7040003@gmail.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49D3C626.9040400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090402103003.8b3e8add.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:53:10 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > What about Siemens? That's older than IBM. I used one of theirs, > > years ago... > They were making electronics, but when did they start making > computers? Siemens makes everything from trivial electronic components to atomic plants. They started to build transistorized computers in the 1950'ies. (SIEMENS 2002) Siemens bought the Zuse KG company in 1967 together with BBC, where BBC had bought Zuse KG in 1964. Nixdorf started in the 1950'ies and was swallowed by Siemens in 1990. Today, AFAIK, they sell the high end stuff from Fujitsu and self build (and engineered) PeeCees. Fujitsu started to build computers in the 1950'ies. NEC was mentioned already. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 2 04:26:02 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:26:02 +0100 Subject: OT: composite video on 1/8" connector In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904012038u5af587f9h9f3512db5a3f89a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220904012038u5af587f9h9f3512db5a3f89a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238664362.5841.11.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 23:38 -0400, John Floren wrote: > This is quite off-topic, but we have such a knowledgeable group here I > thought I'd ask: > > I just bought a pair of MyVu Shades 301, a head mounted display > system. However, I don't see the RCA connectors I was expecting, but > there *is* a cable that says it goes to "standard DVD players". It has > a green stereo 1/8" plug, which I assume is audio, and then a yellow > two-conductor plug. I'm guessing this last one is composite video, but > I'm just not sure. Have any of you seen this? I figure if I can't find > an adapter at Radio Shack I can probably whip one up in a few minutes, > but I wanted to get your opinions before I go messing around. You're unlikely to hurt anything by squirting some video down it. Just stick a meter across the plug and check there's not 200V coming out ;-) Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 08:00:34 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:00:34 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <49D3C5D2.8090803 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. >> Which didn't get into computers *all that early*. > > Only 20 years earlier than SGI. I wouldn't consider SGI or Sun to be "early". Or DEC or DG for that matter. Peace... Sridhar From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Apr 2 08:26:56 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:26:56 +0200 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <20090402095946.94277f40.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D3ACAB.6090407@gmail.com> <18899.45166.600166.382840@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <200904011950.15892.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090402034555.GA22438@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20090402095946.94277f40.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20090402132656.GA15146@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 09:59:46AM +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 05:45:55 +0200 > Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > - SINIX Unix servers: Their own hardware architecture, MIPS CPUs and > > a (IMHO) truly horrible Unix, dead > The SINIX machines started with NS32[05]32 CPUs. Later they used > i80486. Note: This was not a PeeCee. It was basicly the same machine > architecture as the NS32[05]32 machines but with the i80486 shoehorned > in. The MIPS machines came after that and at least some of them where > ARC compliant. Ah, I only saw the MIPS machines, as sold to "special customers" a few years ago. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Apr 2 09:08:00 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:08:00 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <004501c9b2f5$c32c45c0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <49D4C6C0.4040903@radiorobots.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> IBM is about the oldest name left in the computer industry. There's >>>> > Unisys still around, barely. Groupe Bull. Who else? > > You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. > > Nixdorf is still extant in name. Definition of their present industry is a topic for debate. Believe that they, as CDC, began with banking/payroll, etc. Steve From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Apr 2 09:15:44 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:15:44 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed References: <49D3F970.1090702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <18900.51344.626347.255253@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull writes: Pete> Richard wrote: >> What's the significance of the 2.5m interval? Pete> It's some prime-number-fraction (17 IIRC but it's been a while) Pete> of the wavelength of the data bits (and it's too late tonight Pete> to work it out[1]) The idea is to ensure that the interference Pete> effects introduced by the discontinuities of the taps are not Pete> additive. Essentially, yes. That is the purpose. It's not actually a round number multiple, or round fraction multiple, of the wavelength. Using the minimum velocity factor given in the 802.3 and DIX specs (0.77), 2.5 meters translates to 0.10823 wavelengths, or 1/9.24 wavelengths. That makes sense, it's not a round number or 1/round number, so you don't get constructive interference even if you have transceivers separated by several marks. Then again, it's all somewhat approximate because the spacing is fixed while the velocity factor only has a minimum spec. But you don't get in trouble (with a round number) until you have a VF of 0.83, which is pretty high for small coax so the designers may have figured that practical cable would be 0.77 or above, but below 0.83. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Apr 2 10:04:31 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:04:31 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: >>>> You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. >>> Which didn't get into computers *all that early*. >> Only 20 years earlier than SGI. Sridhar> I wouldn't consider SGI or Sun to be "early". Sridhar> Or DEC or DG for that matter. DEC got into computers in, what, 1959? That's a bit later than IBM and Univac, but it seems to be close to the time when CDC and RCA did. DG of course is much later, they were started by the guy whose design for the PDP-11 was rejected. When did HP first make computers? I remember one in the mid 1970s. SGI and Sun are very new by comparison with any of these guys. paul From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Apr 2 10:23:16 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:23:16 -0700 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com>, <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: And oh my, whatever became of that nice man Charles Babbage and his Analytical Engine? -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning [Paul_Koning at dell.com] Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:04 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: >>>> You forgot a tiny company called Hewlett-Packard. >>> Which didn't get into computers *all that early*. >> Only 20 years earlier than SGI. Sridhar> I wouldn't consider SGI or Sun to be "early". Sridhar> Or DEC or DG for that matter. DEC got into computers in, what, 1959? That's a bit later than IBM and Univac, but it seems to be close to the time when CDC and RCA did. DG of course is much later, they were started by the guy whose design for the PDP-11 was rejected. When did HP first make computers? I remember one in the mid 1970s. SGI and Sun are very new by comparison with any of these guys. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 10:40:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:40:42 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > And oh my, whatever became of that nice man Charles Babbage and his Analytical Engine? ?-- Ian He died. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 2 11:22:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:22:35 -0700 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) Message-ID: <49D483DB.17304.41A248E3@cclist.sydex.com> Just passing this information along from another forum: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=14990 --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 12:13:37 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:13:37 -0700 Subject: How can one test a DEC M9313 "Unibus Exerciser and Terminator" (UET)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904021013p243fb8a9v687e892a4fb8812a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > AFAIK, it's a terminator and several loopback registers, but the > specific nature of them is unknown to me. Did you already look at Appendix F, UNIBUS EXERCISER TERMINATOR in the manual EK-DWBUA-TM-001 DWBUA UNIBUS Adapter Technical Manual? It has bit level descriptions of the M9313 Address Register, Data Register, and Control Register. I don't know anything about this myself, but looked at the doc just now out of curiousity. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 2 12:57:13 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:57:13 -0600 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:22:35 -0700. <49D483DB.17304.41A248E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49D483DB.17304.41A248E3 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Just passing this information along from another forum: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=14990 Poster says "local pickup only", so I really hope someone rescues these. 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be rescued. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Apr 2 13:21:45 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:21:45 -0400 Subject: Free Program Listings Message-ID: <15311cc9$3acdec50$17e29fc1$@com> I have updated vintagecomputer.net with some new PDF's of program listings, pictures, and project notes. Bill From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 13:31:54 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:31:54 -0500 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D5049A.7060702@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Poster says "local pickup only", so I really hope someone rescues > these. > > 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be > rescued. Note "I have one keyboard, mouse and monitor set" and that the 300 system* is running HP-UX - sounds like the one keyboard they have isn't a Domain one, and I believe Domain OS (which would make the 300 far more interesting!) won't run without a Domain keyboard attached... * unless my memory's playing tricks on me. I think the 300 is one of the early machines, pre-dating the 3000-series, but maybe I'm misremembering. I thought the only non-Apollo Apollos were the 7xx range. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 2 13:00:29 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:00:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: PC11 interface In-Reply-To: <49D3FF10.9090004@nktelco.net> from "Charles H Dickman" at Apr 1, 9 07:56:00 pm Message-ID: > So, does anybody have a M7810 they want to get rid of? That is the PC11 > interface. I don't know if that is a quad SPC board or a dual that needs > a M105 address board and an M7821 interrupt board. I think it needs the > extra boards. I am pretty sure both forms existed (although IIRC the M7810 is the quad-height card). I have one of those (sorry, it's in use...), but I think the printset I have is for the dual-height board that goes with an M105 and M7821. >From what I remember, the quad-height board is really just the dual-height one + an M105 + an M7821 (or similar) on one PCB. The 3 parts are not connected together on the PCB (maybe pwoer and ground are, the logic signals aren;t), they use the backplane wires that are used when you have the 3 separate PCBs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 2 13:04:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:04:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: composite video on 1/8" connector In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904012038u5af587f9h9f3512db5a3f89a5@mail.gmail.com> from "John Floren" at Apr 1, 9 11:38:54 pm Message-ID: > > This is quite off-topic, but we have such a knowledgeable group here I > thought I'd ask: > > I just bought a pair of MyVu Shades 301, a head mounted display > system. However, I don't see the RCA connectors I was expecting, but > there *is* a cable that says it goes to "standard DVD players". It has > a green stereo 1/8" plug, which I assume is audio, and then a yellow > two-conductor plug. I'm guessing this last one is composite video, but Yellow is a standard colour for composite video (or luminance + sync) in consumer video stuff. > I'm just not sure. Have any of you seen this? I figure if I can't find > an adapter at Radio Shack I can probably whip one up in a few minutes, > but I wanted to get your opinions before I go messing around. I would be very suprised if _anything_ was damaged by feeding in a 1V signal, which is all composite video is. I'd give it a go, most lilely it'll work fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 2 14:55:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:55:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage Message-ID: Does anyone have an HP262x (2621, 2623, etc) terminal (with a DA15 keyboard connector) and a voltmeter to hand? If so, could you please open up the keyboard (4 screws on the bottom), plug the keyboard into the terminal, power up, and measure the voltage either between ; Pin 16 (+ve) and pin 8 (-ve) of any of the 3 chips in the keyboard Or Across the electrolytic capacitor on the keyboard PCB to the left of the 'Tab' key' Alternatively, measure the voltage between pins 12 (+ve) and 10 (-ve) of the DA15 socket on the terminal (temrinal powered up, it doesn't matter whether the keyboard is plugged in or not) All 3 should be the same voltage. I am guessing it's 12V, but it might be 5V. Tnakis in advance for any help. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 2 15:23:29 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:23:29 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FF5A64ECDBF45A3BE3E069089A81510@xp1800> Does a HP125 do the trick ? If so I'll make a measurement for you. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 2 april 2009 21:56 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP262x keyboard voltage > > Does anyone have an HP262x (2621, 2623, etc) terminal (with a > DA15 keyboard connector) and a voltmeter to hand? > > If so, could you please open up the keyboard (4 screws on the > bottom), plug the keyboard into the terminal, power up, and > measure the voltage either between ; > > Pin 16 (+ve) and pin 8 (-ve) of any of the 3 chips in the keyboard > > Or > > Across the electrolytic capacitor on the keyboard PCB to the > left of the 'Tab' key' > > Alternatively, measure the voltage between pins 12 (+ve) and > 10 (-ve) of the DA15 socket on the terminal (temrinal powered > up, it doesn't matter whether the keyboard is plugged in or not) > > All 3 should be the same voltage. I am guessing it's 12V, but > it might be 5V. > > Tnakis in advance for any help. > > -tony > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 2 15:57:16 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com>, <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20090402135620.W11298@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Ian King wrote: > And oh my, whatever became of that nice man Charles Babbage and his > Analytical Engine? . . . or the guy whose boat sank near Antikythera From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 16:01:39 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:01:39 -0500 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49D527B3.2000508@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> And oh my, whatever became of that nice man Charles Babbage and his Analytical Engine? -- Ian > > He died. Or went back to his home planet. ;) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 2 16:11:21 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:11:21 +0200 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: References: <49D483DB.17304.41A248E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:57:13 -0600 Richard wrote: > 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be > rescued. HP-UX is mentioned in the offer. So these aren't Apollos. One is a HP9000-735 (PA-RISC) and the other is some sort of HP9000-300 (M68k). They will nor run Domain/OS. The dual universe machines where the HP9000-400. They could be configured in HP-UX or Domain mode. The Apollo 300 and 3000 machines where pre-HP. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 2 16:44:51 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:44:51 +0100 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401c9b3dc$41ef0410$c5cd0c30$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: 02 April 2009 04:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? > > Hi, All, > > I'm going through a box of DEC boards and I found a DELQA, probably my > only one, and in the box is a cab kit with "DEQNA" stenciled below the > AUI connector (DEC P/N 7-21202-1K). Will it work or do I need a > DELQA-specific cable? > > I have very little Qbus Ethernet experience, or Unibus Ethernet > experience... or for that matter, VAXBI Ethernet experience - in fact, > the only DEC machines I've ever worked with that _had_ Ethernet were > desktop/busless systems (uVAX 2000, MIPS machines...) Any and all > advice or suggestions welcome. > > I remember that there was a driver issue/VMS version issue between > DEQNAs and DELQAs (and DESQAs?) but since I never had to set any of > them up when they were new, the details have eluded my memory. > > Thanks, > > -ethan Lucky you! I would love to get hold of a DELQA as I only have a DEQNA. I have been told that the DEQNAs had problems and would lock up or experience other reliability issues. DEQNAs are not supported after about VMS 5.4/5.5, which is why I need a DELQA. I am not sure what the minimum VMS version is for DELQA though. Regards Rob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 16:43:37 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:43:37 -0500 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <49D483DB.17304.41A248E3@cclist.sydex.com> <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <49D53189.3070704@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:57:13 -0600 Richard wrote: > >> 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be rescued. > HP-UX is mentioned in the offer. So these aren't Apollos. One is a > HP9000-735 (PA-RISC) and the other is some sort of HP9000-300 (M68k). They > will nor run Domain/OS. Hmm, I was thinking all of the non-Domain-capable "fake Apollo" systems were PA-RISC, so I'd assumed this 300 was a 'real' Apollo; maybe Richard made that mistake, too. Now that you mention it, I do remember an HP machine in the 3xx range (I think it may have been 315) passing through my hands which had he Apollo branding but wasn't a genuine Apollo - I never did look under the covers to see what CPU it was, though. > The dual universe machines where the HP9000-400. They could be configured > in HP-UX or Domain mode. Yeah, I'd always thought that was true of the earlier ones, too - I didn't realise that was just the 4xx line (those machines are *wonderful*; they purr along nicely with Domain and the build quality's just fantastic. I'd love to find one again...) cheers Jules From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Apr 2 16:56:53 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:56:53 -0400 Subject: DIP IC test clips Message-ID: <49D534A5.4010300@verizon.net> Hi there. I'm currently using "nose pickers" (a friend at work related that pleasant name) aka XKM grabbers (http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/webtronics_2042_10920298) to attach my low-cost pc-based logic analyzer to some old DIP chips. They are pretty nice but when you start using a bunch in a row, they can get pretty cumbersome. I'm looking for DIP IC test clips for both 40-pin and 48-pin chips. 40-pin doesn't seem too hard to come by, 48-pin seems harder. Here's a picture of what I'm basically looking for: http://www.ap-products.com/images/tc02.gif They clip on the already socketed IC and provide square male header pins on the top of the clip to attach. These are for personal use, and I don't want to spend $100 on clips. Anyone have a line on cheap clips or happen to have any around you want to get rid of? Thanks Keith P.S. I can find plenty of online datasheets from various manufacturers but trying to find a stocking reseller that will sell them onesy twosy to hobbyists is harder. From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Apr 2 19:04:55 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:04:55 -0500 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> Looking for some "frozen yellow garden hose?" I have a spool of thicknet here. It's marked "DEC" and of course has a paint mark every meter where you can tap it. There's an N-connector on one end, the other end is cut. The spool is marked "320 feet" but I don't see how there can be that much on it. I believe there's two layers of cable left wound on the spool, 42 turns, 57" from one point on the spool to the same point on the next turn (very approximately) yields, whoa, 399 feet? Hmmm. Well, maybe there is 320 feet on it. I had thought to use it for amateur radio, since it's the right impedance, but I dunnol how much loss I'd see at VHF frequencies. I use 50 and 144 MHz radios, and 440 MHz UHF but I don't think this stuff is any good for UHF. But my problems would be terminating it in anything but an N-connector, and the fact that it would break down rapidly from UV exposure if I try to use it outdoors. Make offer. Pick up in Southeastern Wisconsin. Or call a motor freight company for a quote for pickup and shipping from 53051. 73 de N9QQB At 11:16 AM 4/1/2009 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Does anyone have any AUI cables they do not need? I could use about five >or six and the shorter, the better. The minimum is 2 meters, I believe. >Cables at 2m or 3m would be ideal. This would be a contribution to the >"worlds most complex network" that is growing in my basement. > >Also a source for some thick Ethernet cable would be a big help. > >Contact me off list if you can help. > >Jim ----- 231. [Internet] .sigs are the bumper stickers of the information superhighway. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:20:57 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:20:57 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> References: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > Looking for some "frozen yellow garden hose?" I have been looking casually for years. I even have taps for it. > I have a spool of thicknet here. It's marked "DEC" and of course has a paint > mark every meter where you can tap it. There's an N-connector on one end, > the other end is cut. Beautiful. > The spool is marked "320 feet" but I don't see how there can be that much on > it. I believe there's two layers of cable left wound on the spool, 42 turns, > 57" from one point on the spool to the same point on the next turn (very > approximately) yields, whoa, 399 feet? Hmmm. Well, maybe there is 320 feet > on it. That's a lot of Etherhose. > Make offer. Pick up in Southeastern Wisconsin. Or call a motor freight > company for a quote for pickup and shipping from 53051. Hmm... I'm supposed to be in Madison sometime this month. How much does it weigh? (wondering about trying to check it on the flight). -ethan From db at db.net Thu Apr 2 19:24:44 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:24:44 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> References: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> Message-ID: <20090403002444.GA36240@night.db.net> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 07:04:55PM -0500, Tom Peters wrote: > Looking for some "frozen yellow garden hose?" > > I have a spool of thicknet here. It's marked "DEC" and of course has a ... > I had thought to use it for amateur radio, since it's the right impedance, Yellow coax degrades very quickly in the sunlight, the black of coax is from carbon black used to protect the cable. It would work, but degrade very quickly. - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Apr 2 20:26:16 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:26:16 -0400 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? In-Reply-To: <004401c9b3dc$41ef0410$c5cd0c30$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <004401c9b3dc$41ef0410$c5cd0c30$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I > have been told that the DEQNAs had problems and would lock up or > experience > other reliability issues. DEQNAs are not supported after about VMS > 5.4/5.5, > which is why I need a DELQA. I am not sure what the minimum VMS version > is > for DELQA though. DEQNAs never worked right, even after 12 revisions. That's why they were dumped and the LQA was created. For moderate loads a QNA should be ok, though. The big problem was that they weren't good enough for Local Area VAXcluster use, which was a big thing in those days. I don't think DECnet was thrilled with them either but DECnet was more tolerant of misbehavior. I don't remember DEQNAs being dumped by the PDP11 operating systems. paul From g-wright at att.net Thu Apr 2 21:54:06 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 02:54:06 +0000 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <49D483DB.17304.41A248E3@cclist.sydex.com> <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <040320090254.13157.49D57A4D00045FFA0000336522230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Jochen Kunz : -------------- > On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:57:13 -0600 > Richard wrote: > > > 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be > > rescued.HP-UX is mentioned in the offer. So these aren't Apollos. One is a HP9000-735 (PA-RISC) and the other is some sort of HP9000-300 (M68k). They will nor run > Domain/OS. > The dual universe machines where the HP9000-400. They could be configured in > HP-UX or Domain mode. > > The Apollo 300 and 3000 machines where pre-HP. > -- > > Both are still worth saving. The 735 is a Early PA-RISC would need a HIL type keyboard/mouse or a serial terminal to boot. The 9000-3xx uses the same keyboard and mouse. Has no internal storage and Uses HP-IB interface. So if complete, it would have at least an external hard drive. - The 735 is a Large PC desktop size but only 4" high. The 9000-3xx are about the size of a small desktop. 13"W 16"L 6"H . The drives and C-tape all stack on each other and are all HP-IB interface. Some of the later 380's and 384s had SCSI interface also. - Jerry g-wright at att.net From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 2 22:09:34 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:09:34 -0600 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Apr 2009 23:11:21 +0200. <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:57:13 -0600 > Richard wrote: > > > 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be > > rescued. > HP-UX is mentioned in the offer. So these aren't Apollos. One is a HP9000= > -735 (PA-RISC) and the other is some sort of HP9000-300 (M68k). They will= > nor run Domain/OS. My mistake, then, sorry for the alarm :-). Seriously though, if you see bona-fide Apollo era Apollo workstations, please rescue them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 2 22:23:19 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:23:19 -0500 Subject: Looking for an Ardent Titan Message-ID: Hi gang, I ask every now and then here if anybody has run across one of these machines or might know sombody willing to part with one. I had one once, new, and want to go back to those days. If you help me find one, I will cross your palm with cash to feed YOUR vintage computer habit. Thanks, Randy _________________________________________________________________ Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with Internet Explorer 8. http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx?ocid=B037MSN55C0701A From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 2 22:36:13 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter II... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got a LaserWriter II free for the pick up. I don't have any gear to hook it to - it appears to have a scsi, serial and some kind of odd AUI interface in it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 22:45:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:45:39 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter II... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got a LaserWriter II free for the pick up. I don't have any gear to > hook it to - it appears to have a scsi, serial and some kind of odd AUI > interface in it. Is it a IIg? I already have enough laser printers, but it might stimulate some interest if folks knew exactly which model (and where "pick up" means). -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 2 22:56:35 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter II... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I've got a LaserWriter II free for the pick up. I don't have any gear to >> hook it to - it appears to have a scsi, serial and some kind of odd AUI >> interface in it. > > Is it a IIg? > > > Yes, it's a IIg. > I already have enough laser printers, but it might stimulate some > interest if folks knew exactly which model (and where "pick up" > means). I knew I was forgetting something.:) Graham, WA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Apr 2 23:03:13 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 00:03:13 -0400 Subject: DIP IC test clips In-Reply-To: <49D534A5.4010300@verizon.net> References: <49D534A5.4010300@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200904030003.13775.rtellason@verizon.net> > These are for personal use, and I don't want to spend $100 on clips. > > Anyone have a line on cheap clips or happen to have any around you want > to get rid of? > > Thanks > > Keith > > P.S. I can find plenty of online datasheets from various manufacturers > but trying to find a stocking reseller that will sell them onesy twosy > to hobbyists is harder. I have some of these (that I'm not looking to get rid of :-) and thought I'd remembered buying them from either Jameco or JDR but can't seem to find 'em in their web sites, for some reason... :-( I guess the prevalence of surface-mount has made them a less popular item these days? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Apr 2 23:47:08 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 00:47:08 -0400 Subject: Apollo 300 and 735 available (SW Georgia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D594CC.7040708@hawkmountain.net> Richard wrote: > In article <20090402231121.269dcf14.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > > >> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:57:13 -0600 >> Richard wrote: >> >> >>> 680x0 Apollo machines are becoming quite rare and deserve to be >>> rescued. >>> >> HP-UX is mentioned in the offer. So these aren't Apollos. One is a HP9000= >> -735 (PA-RISC) and the other is some sort of HP9000-300 (M68k). They will= >> nor run Domain/OS. >> > > My mistake, then, sorry for the alarm :-). > > Seriously though, if you see bona-fide Apollo era Apollo workstations, > please rescue them. > I'll make a home for Apollo gear (DN3xx, DN3xxx, DN4xxx, DN10000) if anyone runs across the stuff but has no personal interest. I'm in Sharon, MA (and despite being in the home state of Apollo .... I don't run into the stuff at all :-( ). -- Curt From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Apr 3 07:12:02 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 08:12:02 -0400 Subject: DIP IC test clips In-Reply-To: <200904030003.13775.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <49D534A5.4010300@verizon.net> <200904030003.13775.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49D5FD12.3030706@verizon.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I have some of these (that I'm not looking to get rid of :-) and thought I'd > remembered buying them from either Jameco or JDR but can't seem to find 'em > in their web sites, for some reason... :-( > > I guess the prevalence of surface-mount has made them a less popular item > these days? Yeah -- that is what I was thinking too. It's not that they are completely unavailable, mind you, but the ones I've found are gold plated ones for $50 a piece. Too rich for my blood --- and overkill given the application. Thanks Keith From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 08:49:58 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 06:49:58 -0700 Subject: DIP IC test clips In-Reply-To: <49D5FD12.3030706@verizon.net> References: <49D534A5.4010300@verizon.net> <200904030003.13775.rtellason@verizon.net> <49D5FD12.3030706@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904030649y70993c51od9a13ba9805bf633@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Keith wrote: > > Yeah -- that is what I was thinking too. ?It's not that they are completely > unavailable, mind you, but the ones I've found are gold plated ones for $50 > a piece. ?Too rich for my blood --- and overkill given the application. > Search Mouser.com for 383-R40 Kobiconn IC Test Clips 40 PIN DIP 1: $16.33 , 5: $14.70 I wonder if the size of the 383-R24 is such that you could use two of them end to end to fit on a 48-pin DIP. Kobiconn IC Test Clips 24 PIN DIP 1: $11.11, 5: $10.00 3M 923690-48 Test Clips 48- Pin .5/.6 Wide Alloy 1: $40.70 From js at cimmeri.com Fri Apr 3 12:22:03 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:22:03 -0500 Subject: Places to post for wanted vintage computer items? In-Reply-To: <200903301800.n2UI0Ege041555@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200903301800.n2UI0Ege041555@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49D645BB.8050702@cimmeri.com> *There's several old computer items I'm in the market for. Is this an appropriate venue to post? Any recommendations (besides here) for posting vintage "want ads"? Is it more effective to post an entire list within one post, or to have one post per item wanted? Thanks very much for any comments. jS * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 3 13:01:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:01:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: <3FF5A64ECDBF45A3BE3E069089A81510@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 2, 9 10:23:29 pm Message-ID: > > Does a HP125 do the trick ? It should do -- it's the same keyboard I think. > If so I'll make a measurement for you. Sombody else has already done that HP125 and got 5V (or thereabouts). This suprises me, the keyboard cotnains 3 chips, all from the 4000 CMOS family (IIRC, a couple of 4028s and a 4051), along with some discretes. Why use CMOS chips if you're going to run them at 5V? Perhaps I should explain what I am trying to do. I have an HP120 without a keyboard. So of course I need to hack something up. The keyboard interface on the HP120 is the 6 pin RJ11 one at 12V, it's electrically the same as the HP150 keyboard intereface, but the keys are in a different electrical arrangement. My 2 thoughts at the moment are either to mofify a 'spare' HP150 keyboard or to make an interface to an HP262x keyboard (I have an HP2623 which I cna 'borrow' the keyboard from). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 3 13:34:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:34:18 -0700 Subject: OT: Opion on Xerox 2825 Laser printer Message-ID: <49D5F43A.12423.47414D7F@cclist.sydex.com> There's a fellow in town selling a used Xerox 2825 laser printer with duplexer for $100. I'm interested because it will do 11x17. Does anyone have any experience with one of these? Worth looking at or run away? Thanks, Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 3 14:03:43 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 21:03:43 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: References: <3FF5A64ECDBF45A3BE3E069089A81510@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 2, 9 10:23:29 pm Message-ID: <907FDEB01CDA41CAAFB1A1A630424380@xp1800> And using a 2392A keyboard ? It also uses the HP150 keyboard interface.. The original keyboard looks a lot like the small HP 9816 keyboard.. Maybe you could modify one of those. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 3 april 2009 20:02 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP262x keyboard voltage > > > > > Does a HP125 do the trick ? > > It should do -- it's the same keyboard I think. > > > If so I'll make a measurement for you. > > Sombody else has already done that HP125 and got 5V (or thereabouts). > This suprises me, the keyboard cotnains 3 chips, all from the > 4000 CMOS family (IIRC, a couple of 4028s and a 4051), along > with some discretes. > Why use CMOS chips if you're going to run them at 5V? > > Perhaps I should explain what I am trying to do. I have an > HP120 without a keyboard. So of course I need to hack > something up. The keyboard interface on the HP120 is the 6 > pin RJ11 one at 12V, it's electrically the same as the HP150 > keyboard intereface, but the keys are in a different > electrical arrangement. My 2 thoughts at the moment are > either to mofify a 'spare' HP150 keyboard or to make an > interface to an HP262x keyboard (I have an HP2623 which I cna > 'borrow' the keyboard from). > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 3 14:25:46 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:25:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: <907FDEB01CDA41CAAFB1A1A630424380@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 09:03:43 pm Message-ID: > > And using a 2392A keyboard ? I don't think I have one of those. What machine does it go with? > It also uses the HP150 keyboard interface.. > The original keyboard looks a lot like the small HP 9816 keyboard.. > Maybe you could modify one of those. No, the HP9816 keyboard is very different. it's a 5V interface on 4 wires (+5V, ground, clock, data (from keyboard)/reset (to keyboard). It also has the twiddleknob (which is addressed as 1 column of keys -- 7 bits of motion and 1 of direction IIRC). Interestingly the 9816 keysiwtches are not wired as a matrix, rather one side of each switch is grounded, the other goes to a multiplexer input. Scheamtics are on hpmuseum.net. The closest keyboard i have electrically is the HP150 one. It is the same interface, similar circuitry, but with differnt key matrix layout. I think I can hackl that by replacing the scan counter chip in the keyboard (a 4024) with a little circuit of about half a dozen chips. The closest keyboard I have for having the right keys is the one for the HP2623 terminal -- after all a similar keyboard was used on the HP125, which as you know is a very similar machine to the HP120 (to the extent that the firmware ROMs are the same, for example). Of course the interface is quite differen, but a conversion circuit shouldn't be too hard to buiold (probably cost more for case/connectors than for logic chips!). -tony From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 3 14:34:40 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:34:40 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49D664D0.3020401@sbcglobal.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> And oh my, whatever became of that nice man Charles Babbage and his Analytical Engine? -- Ian > > He died. > > > (chuckle) Why thank you, Captain Obvious! -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:48:16 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:48:16 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: <49D664D0.3020401@sbcglobal.net> References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49D664D0.3020401@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Why thank you, Captain Obvious! That's MAJOR Obvious to you, peasant! I got promoted. -- Will From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 3 14:48:54 2009 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:48:54 +0100 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? References: <004401c9b3dc$41ef0410$c5cd0c30$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: From: "Paul Koning" >> I >> have been told that the DEQNAs had problems and would lock up or >> experience >> other reliability issues. DEQNAs are not supported after about VMS >> 5.4/5.5, >> which is why I need a DELQA. I am not sure what the minimum VMS > version >> is >> for DELQA though. > > DEQNAs never worked right, even after 12 revisions. That's why they > were dumped and the LQA was created. For moderate loads a QNA should be > ok, though. The big problem was that they weren't good enough for Local > Area VAXcluster use, which was a big thing in those days. I don't think > DECnet was thrilled with them either but DECnet was more tolerant of > misbehavior. > > I don't remember DEQNAs being dumped by the PDP11 operating systems. > > paul > They work fine under RSX11. We used them on a dual network flight data processing system (electronic flight strips) for about 10 years. Jim. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 3 14:50:48 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 21:50:48 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: References: <907FDEB01CDA41CAAFB1A1A630424380@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 09:03:43 pm Message-ID: <106BC8F3389A4FDF998673F0A44A8A27@xp1800> > > > And using a 2392A keyboard ? > > I don't think I have one of those. What machine does it go with? HP 2392A Terminal it has the same keyboard interface as the HP150. Keyboards look a lot like the HP150 keyboards. > > > It also uses the HP150 keyboard interface.. > > The original keyboard looks a lot like the small HP 9816 keyboard.. > > Maybe you could modify one of those. > > No, the HP9816 keyboard is very different. it's a 5V > interface on 4 wires (+5V, ground, clock, data (from > keyboard)/reset (to keyboard). It also has the twiddleknob > (which is addressed as 1 column of keys -- 7 bits of motion > and 1 of direction IIRC). Interestingly the 9816 keysiwtches > are not wired as a matrix, rather one side of each switch is > grounded, the other goes to a multiplexer input. Scheamtics > are on hpmuseum.net. Yes I know and on my harddisk , very conveniant I make a lot of use of them. And you're right I forgot the knob, just was thinking about the looks, not the interface. > > The closest keyboard i have electrically is the HP150 one. And not realy the right style. > It is the same interface, similar circuitry, but with differnt > key matrix layout. I think I can hackl that by replacing the > scan counter chip in the keyboard (a 4024) with a little > circuit of about half a dozen chips. > > The closest keyboard I have for having the right keys is the > one for the > HP2623 terminal -- after all a similar keyboard was used on > the HP125, which as you know is a very similar machine to the > HP120 (to the extent that the firmware ROMs are the same, for > example). Of course the interface is quite differen, but a > conversion circuit shouldn't be too hard to buiold (probably > cost more for case/connectors than for logic chips!). > In a lot of cases the right HP keyboards are difficult to find even HIL keyboards are not always easy (reasonable priced) to find. If I was you I should go for the interface and the HP2623 keyboard, it looks better when using the HP120 ;-) -Rik From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 3 15:00:22 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 13:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Apr 3, 9 03:48:16 pm" Message-ID: <200904032000.n33K0MGU011840@floodgap.com> > > Why thank you, Captain Obvious! > > That's MAJOR Obvious to you, peasant! > I got promoted. But your name is Will, not Lee. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 3 15:02:18 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:02:18 -0400 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <49D4B6F2.9040304@gmail.com> <18900.54271.172248.692020@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49D664D0.3020401@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49D66B4A.20704@sbcglobal.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> Why thank you, Captain Obvious! > > That's MAJOR Obvious to you, peasant! > > I got promoted. > Nah, how about a promotion to Major Doofus? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 3 15:20:30 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 22:20:30 +0200 Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure Message-ID: I have a 16K memoryboard for my HP9825A it suffered from a bad -12V and destroyed all the rams TMS4080. I bought from ICI 32 pcs. nos uPD411AC-2 replaced all the rams but I'm getting an error when testing the board. The HP9825 isn't under suspect because it works okay with another 16k board. The systemtest (from the tape) says : 60K board failes Address 60100,60300,60400 not always the same sometimes only 60400. Bit 9 sense 0 or 1 (not consistent sometimes 1 sometimes 0) I swapped the LB9 and UB9 chips on the board with other 411's(new ones) But the error stays I replaced the refreshcounters decoupling caps but nothing. So any ideas are welcome. -Rik From tiggerlasv at aim.com Fri Apr 3 15:48:38 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:48:38 -0400 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? Message-ID: <8CB82B4B30C2E2A-D24-1149@FWM-M19.sysops.aol.com> There are no operational differences that you'll notice between a DEQNA and a DELQA cabinet kit if you're using a PDP-11. There are two extra signal lines on the DELQA vs DEQNA cables, which correspond to "Control in, circuit "A", and "B". The purpose of these, I'm not sure; maybe some sort of throttling or flow control. I doubt the PDP-11 driver uses it. Not so sure about the MicroVax. For basic operations, with a DEQNA-compatible driver, the cables should perform identically, as they are pin-compatible. T From david at thecoolbears.org Fri Apr 3 17:35:45 2009 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:35:45 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running Message-ID: <20090403223549.237303844699@cassini.thecoolbears.org> After a very long wait and a lot of effort, my VAX is finally running OpenVMS. So, you know how boat builders break a bottle of Champaign on their new creations? Well, my tradition is to get Colossal Caves running on all new machines. The problem is that while I can find lots of downloads for OpenVMS, none of them seem to work. Mostly it seems like FTP'ing the data file corrupts it. Any suggestion on how to get advent running on VMS? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 18:40:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:40:24 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090403223549.237303844699@cassini.thecoolbears.org> References: <20090403223549.237303844699@cassini.thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:35 PM, David Coolbear wrote: > After a very long wait and a lot of effort, my VAX is finally running > OpenVMS. Congratulations! > So, you know how boat builders break a bottle of Champaign on their new > creations? Well, my tradition is to get Colossal Caves running on all new > machines. The problem is that while I can find lots of downloads for > OpenVMS, none of them seem to work. Mostly it seems like FTP'ing the data > file corrupts it. With VMS, you need to worry about "RMS file attributes". Unlike UNIX, files are not merely streams of bytes to VMS. We used to use a program called BACKPACK.EXE that could encode RMS attributes into a uuencoded-like textual stream that could be easily reconstituted. We'd BACKPACK OLB files and such and have our customers use Kermit or BLAST to get the data from us, then they'd turn the downloads back into files and it all worked great. For non-VMS-to-VMS transfers, it might not be so easy. EXEs are slightly easy to get because they use 512-byte fixed-sized records, so you could download a binary stream, fix up the attributes, and VMS would recognize the file as an executable. For the specific case of the data file for VMS, you'd have to know what sort of file the executable is expecting and get the data into that type of file. So plain text files and executable binaries are easy to move onto a VMS system. Odd binary formats (object libraries and other formatted binary files) aren't easy to move on and off VMS. If the versions of Adventure you've been playing with depend on odd files, then I can understand why FTP wouldn't be able to move them around. > Any suggestion on how to get advent running on VMS? Did you try this copy of the code? It appears to have the data file in plain-text (atext.txt). (from ) Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Apr 3 20:54:47 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:54:47 -0400 Subject: DIP IC test clips In-Reply-To: <49D5FD12.3030706@verizon.net> References: <49D534A5.4010300@verizon.net> <200904030003.13775.rtellason@verizon.net> <49D5FD12.3030706@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200904032154.47920.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 03 April 2009 08:12:02 am Keith wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I have some of these (that I'm not looking to get rid of :-) and thought > > I'd remembered buying them from either Jameco or JDR but can't seem to > > find 'em in their web sites, for some reason... :-( > > > > I guess the prevalence of surface-mount has made them a less popular item > > these days? > > Yeah -- that is what I was thinking too. It's not that they are > completely unavailable, mind you, but the ones I've found are gold > plated ones for $50 a piece. Too rich for my blood --- and overkill > given the application. > > Thanks > > Keith Yeah, that'd definitely be a bit more than I'd want to spend too... I'm not even sure what sizes I have offhand. I think I got a 14-pin one first, a cheap one I bought someplace in NYC, I think, and I figured I could move that a pin if I needed to check a 16-pin part. I'm not sure if I carried that same thinking over on the bigger ones offhand, but I probably oughta look and see just what the heck I've got. I haven't used 'em anywhere near as much as I thought I might, either, but then I haven't even fired my scope up in ages now, another thing I oughta fix pretty soon, too. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hachti at hachti.de Sat Apr 4 06:29:07 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:29:07 +0200 Subject: pdp-8/e fault In-Reply-To: <49C956E9.9030501@nktelco.net> References: <5439604478BD4EA49617D06A81910BEA@EDIConsultingLtd.local> <49C956E9.9030501@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <49D74483.9090505@hachti.de> > Since core > memory reads are destructive, we can eliminate some core issues if you > say that core can be read repeatedly without it's contents changing. It > could be a problem with the path between the switch register and the > memory data bus. But he wrote that the data displays correctly. The 8/e display shows the state of the memory data bus. My first idea would be to check for bad contacts. And think about the memory control. And? Can you read out memory? Does it change? From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Apr 4 10:47:18 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:47:18 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <20090403223549.237303844699@cassini.thecoolbears.org>, Message-ID: I used that version (with the atext.txt file) for our VAX-11/780-5 and it worked fine via FTP. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The VAX is running On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:35 PM, David Coolbear wrote: > After a very long wait and a lot of effort, my VAX is finally running > OpenVMS. Congratulations! > So, you know how boat builders break a bottle of Champaign on their new > creations? Well, my tradition is to get Colossal Caves running on all new > machines. The problem is that while I can find lots of downloads for > OpenVMS, none of them seem to work. Mostly it seems like FTP'ing the data > file corrupts it. With VMS, you need to worry about "RMS file attributes". Unlike UNIX, files are not merely streams of bytes to VMS. We used to use a program called BACKPACK.EXE that could encode RMS attributes into a uuencoded-like textual stream that could be easily reconstituted. We'd BACKPACK OLB files and such and have our customers use Kermit or BLAST to get the data from us, then they'd turn the downloads back into files and it all worked great. For non-VMS-to-VMS transfers, it might not be so easy. EXEs are slightly easy to get because they use 512-byte fixed-sized records, so you could download a binary stream, fix up the attributes, and VMS would recognize the file as an executable. For the specific case of the data file for VMS, you'd have to know what sort of file the executable is expecting and get the data into that type of file. So plain text files and executable binaries are easy to move onto a VMS system. Odd binary formats (object libraries and other formatted binary files) aren't easy to move on and off VMS. If the versions of Adventure you've been playing with depend on odd files, then I can understand why FTP wouldn't be able to move them around. > Any suggestion on how to get advent running on VMS? Did you try this copy of the code? It appears to have the data file in plain-text (atext.txt). (from ) Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 4 12:53:25 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:53:25 -0600 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:40:24 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing > all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things > expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Apr 4 12:58:20 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:58:20 -0500 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28@lunar-tokyo.net> Magtape has blocks. On Apr 4, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article > , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing >> all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things >> expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. > > How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 13:19:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:19:28 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Magtape has blocks. > > On Apr 4, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article , >> ? ?Ethan Dicks ?writes: >> >>> Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing >>> all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. ?Today, of course, most things >>> expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. >> >> How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? Right... one block, one RMS record. On UNIX systems, tape blocks tend to be all one size. Somewhat less so on VMS. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 4 13:29:15 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:29:15 -0600 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:58:20 -0500. <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: In article <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28 at lunar-tokyo.net>, Daniel Seagraves writes: > > In article > > , > > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > >> Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing > >> all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things > >> expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. > > On Apr 4, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: > > > How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? > > Magtape has blocks. What exactly is a block? Is it defined as a sequence of bits or as a sequence of bytes? If its just a sequence of bytes that define a block, I'm not sure I understand how blocks avoid the stream-of-bytes issue. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Apr 4 13:36:39 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:36:39 -0500 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A block is a sequence of tape frames. Those can be 7 or 8 bits wide depending on your hardware. Blocks have length, and can vary in length from block to block. You can have a small descriptor block between long data blocks on the tape, where the small block describes what the next large block contains, and so on. You can tell if a block is a descriptor by its length, or looking for a magic number at the start of the block, or whatever. Tapes also have file-marks. On Apr 4, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28 at lunar-tokyo.net>, > Daniel Seagraves writes: >>> In article >>> , >>> Ethan Dicks writes: >>> >>>> Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing >>>> all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things >>>> expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. >> >> On Apr 4, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: >> >>> How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? >> >> Magtape has blocks. > > What exactly is a block? > > Is it defined as a sequence of bits or as a sequence of bytes? > > If its just a sequence of bytes that define a block, I'm not sure I > understand how blocks avoid the stream-of-bytes issue. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sat Apr 4 13:35:19 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:35:19 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:58:20 -0500.<2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > > >> Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, > bypassing > > >> all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most > things > > >> expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. > > > > On Apr 4, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? > > > > Magtape has blocks. > > What exactly is a block? > > Is it defined as a sequence of bits or as a sequence of bytes? > > If its just a sequence of bytes that define a block, I'm not sure I > understand how blocks avoid the stream-of-bytes issue. I think the more important point is that tapes also have file attributes, similar to what RMS has. So when you need valid attributes -- as you do on VMS -- then transferring the file via ANSI labeled tapes will do that, while transferring via FTP will not. But even if you don't need attributes, which is true on some other operating systems, block boundaries may matter. So a block is some number of bytes WITH a boundary. By contrast, TCP transfers bytes with no boundaries. This is why there are so many application layer protocols that have to do extra work to put boundaries back in, to make up for this omission in TCP. (It's pretty much unique to TCP; every other transport layer protocol I can think of it transfers packets, not byte streams, so it does provide the notion of blocks.) paul From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 4 13:45:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:45:58 -0600 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:36:39 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Daniel Seagraves writes: > A block is a sequence of tape frames. Those can be 7 or 8 bits wide > depending on your hardware. Blocks have length, and can vary in length > from block to block. You can have a small descriptor block between long > data blocks on the tape, where the small block describes what the next > large block contains, and so on. You can tell if a block is a > descriptor by its length, or looking for a magic number at the start of > the block, or whatever. OK, this seems to indicate that there is a well defined mapping between tape frames and bytes. Since a block is a sequence of tape frames, that implies that blocks are well mapped to a sequence of bytes. I guess I'm still missing something that magtape solves that a stream of bytes doesn't solve. My understanding is that the hardware tape interface just delivers a sequence of tape frames without any additional interpretation and that its the driver/OS/whatever that interprets the tape frames into some larger structure. > Tapes also have file-marks. How is that represented? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 4 13:49:45 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:49:45 -0600 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Apr 2009 14:35:19 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Paul Koning" writes: > I think the more important point is that tapes also have file > attributes, similar to what RMS has. So when you need valid attributes > -- as you do on VMS -- then transferring the file via ANSI labeled tapes > will do that, while transferring via FTP will not. It sounds like you're saying that metadata about the file is lost because FTP just transmits the file contents and not the metadata. (Similar to the data and resource forks on a Macintosh file?) The solution seems to be to capture the file in a way that captures the metadata as well, like StuffIt for Mac files. Is that it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Apr 4 14:19:10 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:19:10 +0100 Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay In-Reply-To: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 keypunch on eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it has been shipped across the Atlantic I will have to think about converting it from 60Hz to 50Hz. I have the remains of a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz motor I should be able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a step down transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers might be enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole thing with just a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns out, not the end of the world. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 4 14:24:58 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:24:58 -0500 Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Its going to work just fine. My opinion, its only a squirrel cage motor, and from what I've seen of IBM, a failrly hefty one. Go for it. We all know you will do it anyway, minutes after its off the truck :) Randy > From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:19:10 +0100 > Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay > > Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 keypunch > on eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it has been shipped > across the Atlantic I will have to think about converting it from 60Hz > to 50Hz. I have the remains of a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz > motor I should be able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a > step down transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers > might be enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. > > Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole thing with > just a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns out, not the end of > the world. > > _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates1_042009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 14:35:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 15:35:35 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Richard wrote: > It sounds like you're saying that metadata about the file is lost > because FTP just transmits the file contents and not the metadata. Pretty much. > (Similar to the data and resource forks on a Macintosh file?) Not that formal. With tapes, the out-of-band data wasn't part of the data stream from your application, but your application could make requests of the driver to write EOF and EOT "markers" and by the size of the blocks you sent to the driver, created the aforementioned metadata. > The solution seems to be to capture the file in a way that captures > the metadata as well, like StuffIt for Mac files. > > Is that it? That's what "tape container files" are, in essence... imagine a stream-of-bytes file, with a record size, then the "payload" then a record size, with the ability to insert end-of-tape "markers" in the file for whatever application is going to re-parse the file. Such things exist now, but were not so common 20 years ago. We had real tapes and we moved real tapes around - FTP and such became popular on non-UNIX platforms later (well... there's FTP for TOPS-20, but I didn't have any direct experience with that back in the day, so I can't speak to what happened in that world). -ethan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 4 14:46:22 2009 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:46:22 +0100 Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay References: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:19:10 +0100 > Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay > > Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 keypunch > on eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it has been shipped > across the Atlantic I will have to think about converting it from 60Hz > to 50Hz. I have the remains of a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz > motor I should be able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a > step down transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers > might be enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. > > Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole thing with > just a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns out, not the end of > the world. > > We used to have motor-generator sets for running 60Hz IBM stuff off 50Hz supplies. ISTR it was important for some timing function or other (we are talking 9020 here, and it was scrapped shortly after I joined the company). Jim. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 4 14:58:16 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:58:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay Message-ID: <62895.62.140.137.30.1238875096.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Roger, Do you only need to convert the frequency for the motor or for the whole unit? If it is only the motor, you might look for a converter which is used for jukeboxes. Some people here in the Netherlands use a frequency converter for the motor which drives the turntable, the rest of the electronics does work without problems on 50Hz. Regards, Ed > Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 keypunch > on eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it has been shipped > across the Atlantic I will have to think about converting it from 60Hz > to 50Hz. I have the remains of a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz > motor I should be able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a > step down transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers > might be enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. > > Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole thing with > just a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns out, not the end of > the world. > > > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 4 15:03:33 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:03:33 +0200 Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: You could use a small freq.converter the one's they are using for fanspeed controlling. And when you use a 110/230 transformer between the converter and keypunch you loose a lot of spikes and other distorsion. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Roger Holmes > Verzonden: zaterdag 4 april 2009 21:19 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Keypunch that was on eBay > > Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 > keypunch on eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it > has been shipped across the Atlantic I will have to think > about converting it from 60Hz to 50Hz. I have the remains of > a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz motor I should be > able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a step down > transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers > might be enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. > > Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole > thing with just a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns > out, not the end of the world. > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 15:04:54 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:04:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 10:20:30 pm Message-ID: > > I have a 16K memoryboard for my HP9825A it suffered from a bad -12V and I assume you have schematics. > destroyed all the rams TMS4080. This puzzles me a bit. The -12V rail is regulated down to -5V using a resistor/zener circuit,. and it's the -5V that's used by the RAMs. I assume you've checked this voltage. Or did the -12 disappear, removning the bias from the DRAMs and cooking them? > I bought from ICI 32 pcs. nos uPD411AC-2 replaced all the rams but I'm > getting an error when testing the board. > The HP9825 isn't under suspect because it works okay with another 16k board. > The systemtest (from the tape) says : 60K board failes > Address 60100,60300,60400 not always the same sometimes only 60400. > Bit 9 sense 0 or 1 (not consistent sometimes 1 sometimes 0) I swapped the > LB9 and UB9 chips on the board with other 411's(new ones) > But the error stays I replaced the refreshcounters decoupling caps but > nothing. First check the power lines with a 'scope. Noise on power lines causes all sorts of problems with DRAMs. I've had vias fail on old HP boards when soldering/desoldering components. My next task would be to check that all pins on all RAMs go to the rignt places and that none are left floating. And then do make sure that all address, data, etc pins are being driving nad that none are floating around. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 15:00:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:00:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: <106BC8F3389A4FDF998673F0A44A8A27@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 09:50:48 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > > > And using a 2392A keyboard ? > > > > I don't think I have one of those. What machine does it go with? > > HP 2392A Terminal it has the same keyboard interface as the HP150. > Keyboards look a lot like the HP150 keyboards. Hmmm.. I don't think I have one, but _somewhere_ I have an obscrue HP keyboard with a 6 wire RJ11 connector. Maybe I shoukd try to dig it out. > Yes I know and on my harddisk , very conveniant I make a lot of use of them. > And you're right I forgot the knob, just was thinking about the looks, not > the interface. As you know by now, the frist requriement is that the system works. The correct 'looks' are very much secondary to that, particularly in a case like this where I am not going to modify the HP120 in any way. If by some great chance I get the correct keyboard I can just plug it in. > > > > > The closest keyboard i have electrically is the HP150 one. > > And not realy the right style. Ture. > > > It is the same interface, similar circuitry, but with differnt > > key matrix layout. I think I can hackl that by replacing the > > scan counter chip in the keyboard (a 4024) with a little > > circuit of about half a dozen chips. > > > > The closest keyboard I have for having the right keys is the > > one for the > > HP2623 terminal -- after all a similar keyboard was used on > > the HP125, which as you know is a very similar machine to the > > HP120 (to the extent that the firmware ROMs are the same, for > > example). Of course the interface is quite differen, but a > > conversion circuit shouldn't be too hard to buiold (probably > > cost more for case/connectors than for logic chips!). > > > In a lot of cases the right HP keyboards are difficult to find even HIL > keyboards are not always easy (reasonable priced) to find. Now those I am not short of (both the HP46020 (individual swtiches) and HP46021 (capacitve membrane assembly). > If I was you I should go for the interface and the HP2623 keyboard, it looks > better when using the HP120 ;-) I'll probably do both in the end. I spent the afternoon pulling HP keyboards apart and buzzing out connections/ The HP2623 keyboard is much as I expected, and the switch matrix layout looks to be right for the HP120. Which means iternfacing it is just a matter of adding a 7 bit counter (4024 or similar) and maybe an inverter to step through the keys. Actually, I'll probably add some buffers too, I don't like driving cables from the output of flip-flop chips... The HP150 keybaord is also as I suspected. Modifying that one should be a matter of removing the 4024 scan counter chip and replacing it with a PCB contianing a 7 bit counter an an EPROM. What makes it a little more work is that this keyboarsd runs at 12V, all EPROMs ruin at 5V or thereabouts. So I'll need to add level shifters. But that's not hard. -tomy From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 4 16:00:47 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:00:47 +0200 Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 10:20:30 pm Message-ID: <780E605DE9B444EEBB2D253D36476005@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zaterdag 4 april 2009 22:05 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure > > > > > I have a 16K memoryboard for my HP9825A it suffered from a bad -12V > > and > > I assume you have schematics. Yep, thanks to your excellent work. > > > destroyed all the rams TMS4080. > > This puzzles me a bit. The -12V rail is regulated down to -5V > using a resistor/zener circuit,. and it's the -5V that's used > by the RAMs. I assume you've checked this voltage. > > Or did the -12 disappear, removning the bias from the DRAMs > and cooking them? The -12V was defective (not on this machine but on another witch I fixed (uA723 replaced) and put a 8k board in it.) I measured the voltage and there was little or no noise on the power lines. I did put some extra decoupling caps (100nF and 2.2uF tantalium) on the power lines just to be sure. That wasn't the problem, the errors are a bit erratic always the same bit 9 but not always the same address. Today I replaced the address buffer ('LS368) but that wasn't the solution too. > > > I bought from ICI 32 pcs. nos uPD411AC-2 replaced all the > rams but I'm > > getting an error when testing the board. > > The HP9825 isn't under suspect because it works okay with > another 16k board. > > The systemtest (from the tape) says : 60K board failes Address > > 60100,60300,60400 not always the same sometimes only 60400. > > Bit 9 sense 0 or 1 (not consistent sometimes 1 sometimes 0) > I swapped > > the > > LB9 and UB9 chips on the board with other 411's(new ones) But the > > error stays I replaced the refreshcounters decoupling caps but > > nothing. > > First check the power lines with a 'scope. Noise on power > lines causes all sorts of problems with DRAMs. > > I've had vias fail on old HP boards when > soldering/desoldering components. My next task would be to > check that all pins on all RAMs go to the rignt places and > that none are left floating. I'll think I'm going to do that I got a current tracer, so I'm going to use that first. And see if something is coming up. > > And then do make sure that all address, data, etc pins are > being driving nad that none are floating around. > > -tony > Thanks, -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 4 16:06:50 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:06:50 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: References: <106BC8F3389A4FDF998673F0A44A8A27@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 09:50:48 pm Message-ID: <91704D2A9D444F5E921423E201D7E290@xp1800> I'll look around for you and will place a small posting on our Dutch collectorslist (cvml). May be something comes up (not a great chance). -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zaterdag 4 april 2009 22:01 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP262x keyboard voltage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And using a 2392A keyboard ? > > > > > > I don't think I have one of those. What machine does it go with? > > > > HP 2392A Terminal it has the same keyboard interface as the HP150. > > Keyboards look a lot like the HP150 keyboards. > > Hmmm.. I don't think I have one, but _somewhere_ I have an > obscrue HP keyboard with a 6 wire RJ11 connector. Maybe I > shoukd try to dig it out. > > > > Yes I know and on my harddisk , very conveniant I make a > lot of use of them. > > And you're right I forgot the knob, just was thinking about > the looks, not > > the interface. > > As you know by now, the frist requriement is that the system > works. The > correct 'looks' are very much secondary to that, particularly > in a case > like this where I am not going to modify the HP120 in any > way. If by some > great chance I get the correct keyboard I can just plug it in. > > > > > > > > > The closest keyboard i have electrically is the HP150 one. > > > > And not realy the right style. > > Ture. > > > > > > It is the same interface, similar circuitry, but with differnt > > > key matrix layout. I think I can hackl that by replacing the > > > scan counter chip in the keyboard (a 4024) with a little > > > circuit of about half a dozen chips. > > > > > > The closest keyboard I have for having the right keys is the > > > one for the > > > HP2623 terminal -- after all a similar keyboard was used on > > > the HP125, which as you know is a very similar machine to the > > > HP120 (to the extent that the firmware ROMs are the same, for > > > example). Of course the interface is quite differen, but a > > > conversion circuit shouldn't be too hard to buiold (probably > > > cost more for case/connectors than for logic chips!). > > > > > In a lot of cases the right HP keyboards are difficult to > find even HIL > > keyboards are not always easy (reasonable priced) to find. > > Now those I am not short of (both the HP46020 (individual > swtiches) and > HP46021 (capacitve membrane assembly). > > > If I was you I should go for the interface and the HP2623 > keyboard, it looks > > better when using the HP120 ;-) > > I'll probably do both in the end. I spent the afternoon pulling HP > keyboards apart and buzzing out connections/ The HP2623 > keyboard is much > as I expected, and the switch matrix layout looks to be right for the > HP120. Which means iternfacing it is just a matter of adding a 7 bit > counter (4024 or similar) and maybe an inverter to step > through the keys. > Actually, I'll probably add some buffers too, I don't like > driving cables > from the output of flip-flop chips... > > The HP150 keybaord is also as I suspected. Modifying that one > should be a > matter of removing the 4024 scan counter chip and replacing > it with a PCB > contianing a 7 bit counter an an EPROM. What makes it a > little more work > is that this keyboarsd runs at 12V, all EPROMs ruin at 5V or > thereabouts. > So I'll need to add level shifters. But that's not hard. > > -tomy > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 4 16:40:35 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:40:35 -0700 Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure In-Reply-To: <780E605DE9B444EEBB2D253D36476005@xp1800> References: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 3, 9 10:20:30 pm <780E605DE9B444EEBB2D253D36476005@xp1800> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl > That wasn't the problem, the errors are a bit erratic always the same bit 9 > but not always the same address. > Today I replaced the address buffer ('LS368) but that wasn't the solution > too. > Hi Do realize that with a RAM array, the failing location of a RAM test is not always the bad RAM. It could be most any of the other RAMs on that same wire. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009 From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Apr 4 18:36:01 2009 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 16:36:01 -0700 Subject: FTP xfer modes, was Re: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D7EEE1.8000208@crash.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Such things exist now, but were not so common 20 years ago. We had > real tapes and we moved real tapes around - FTP and such became > popular on non-UNIX platforms later It was about 20 years ago that I was working with CMU-TEK and TGV's MultiNet TCP/IP packages on VMS. ISTR that there was a mode available in the FTP client for one or both of these that I could use with other hosts where records were used (VMS, TOPS, etc) so that I could transfer files with the record structure intact. Much like switching between ASCII and BINARY mode, but I can't recall what the command was. (TENEX? STRUCT?) Of course I have been out in the sun without a hat today, so this could be an indication of delirium or the CIA's orbital mind-control lasers, whichever you're more inclined towards. ;^) --S. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 4 20:04:34 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:04:34 -0500 Subject: Places to post for wanted vintage computer items? In-Reply-To: <49D645BB.8050702@cimmeri.com> References: <200903301800.n2UI0Ege041555@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49D645BB.8050702@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49D803A2.60802@oldskool.org> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > *There's several old computer items I'm in the market for. Is this an > appropriate venue to post? Any recommendations (besides here) for > posting vintage "want ads"? The only place other than ebay that I know of would be the Vintage Computer Forums (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/index.php) as well as the Vintage Computer Marketplace (http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/). Both places haven't quite reached critical mass yet, though. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 4 22:48:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:48:37 -0700 Subject: FTP xfer modes, was Re: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49D7EEE1.8000208@crash.com> References: , , <49D7EEE1.8000208@crash.com> Message-ID: <49D7C7A5.11811.4E635A7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2009 at 16:36, Steven M Jones wrote: > It was about 20 years ago that I was working with CMU-TEK and TGV's > MultiNet TCP/IP packages on VMS. ISTR that there was a mode available > in the FTP client for one or both of these that I could use with other > hosts where records were used (VMS, TOPS, etc) so that I could > transfer files with the record structure intact. Much like switching > between ASCII and BINARY mode, but I can't recall what the command > was. (TENEX? STRUCT?) Inter mainframe incompatibilities were part of FTP from very early days, RFC 571 (1973( brought up the TENEX problem and RFC 683 (1975) proposed a solution. How simple the matter of codes has become is evidenced by the listing of the various datatypes in RFC 114 (about 30 of them). Cheers, Chuck From david at thecoolbears.org Sun Apr 5 01:06:53 2009 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:06:53 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> > Did you try this copy of the code? It appears to have the data file > in plain-text (atext.txt). > > I tried that and atext.txt looks better, but the fortran source files are still messed up some how - at least they won't compile and the error messages imply that there is still a record problem. I also tried a precompiled executable with the improved atext.txt, but that doesn't work either. From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Apr 5 01:27:16 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:27:16 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: Source files should not be giving you a 'record problem' (since they're text) - but there is another potential issue. I downloaded some BASIC source files on a PC, zipped them up and transferred them over to a VAX. I picked one to compile (this is BASIC we're talking about), and it failed with an error per line. I opened up the file in TPU and discovered that there was a 'spurious' CR at the end of each line. I removed those and everything compiled and linked. Take a look at the line-level translation that may be happening. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Coolbear [david at thecoolbears.org] Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 11:06 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: The VAX is running > Did you try this copy of the code? It appears to have the data file > in plain-text (atext.txt). > > I tried that and atext.txt looks better, but the fortran source files are still messed up some how - at least they won't compile and the error messages imply that there is still a record problem. I also tried a precompiled executable with the improved atext.txt, but that doesn't work either. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 5 05:00:36 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 12:00:36 +0200 Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Apr3, 9 10:20:30 pm <780E605DE9B444EEBB2D253D36476005@xp1800> Message-ID: <5520CAC3CA5C4DC5B89C0ACC3FAE3B54@xp1800> It's not really a array. The banks are build op from 16 times 1*8k RAM's there are two banks one low one high. Octal 60 and 70 and I replaced on both banks the bit 9 chips, because the program marked the bit 9 as faulty. The problem is it's always bit 9 but not always the same address and not always the same output sometimes sense is 0 sometimes sense is 1. So the suggestion from Tony to check the vias, is the next step I'll take. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens dwight elvey > Verzonden: zaterdag 4 april 2009 23:41 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl > > That wasn't the problem, the errors are a bit erratic > always the same > > bit 9 but not always the same address. > > Today I replaced the address buffer ('LS368) but that wasn't the > > solution too. > > > Hi > Do realize that with a RAM array, the failing location of a > RAM test is not always the bad RAM. It could be most any of > the other RAMs on that same wire. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Rediscover HotmailR: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. > http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_ Rediscover_Storage1_042009 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 5 11:57:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:57:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure In-Reply-To: <780E605DE9B444EEBB2D253D36476005@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 4, 9 11:00:47 pm Message-ID: > > > destroyed all the rams TMS4080. > > > > This puzzles me a bit. The -12V rail is regulated down to -5V > > using a resistor/zener circuit,. and it's the -5V that's used > > by the RAMs. I assume you've checked this voltage. > > > > Or did the -12 disappear, removning the bias from the DRAMs > > and cooking them? > The -12V was defective (not on this machine but on another witch I fixed > (uA723 replaced) and put a 8k board in it.) I thought hte -12V rail came from a 3-terminal regulator (7912 or similar). There's a 723 in the _+12V_ supply IIRC though. > That wasn't the problem, the errors are a bit erratic always the same bit 9 > but not always the same address. > Today I replaced the address buffer ('LS368) but that wasn't the solution > too. I think you're going to have to do some measurements before reolacing odd components at random. As I mentioned. some of these old HP boards don't like being resoldered too often, the through-hole plating fails and leads to more problems. Please don't ask how I discovered this! > > I've had vias fail on old HP boards when > > soldering/desoldering components. My next task would be to > > check that all pins on all RAMs go to the rignt places and > > that none are left floating. > > I'll think I'm going to do that I got a current tracer, so I'm going to use > that first. Using an ohmmeter on the board (with it powered down, of course) will verify that all the address lines are connected between the RAMs, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 5 11:59:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:59:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: <91704D2A9D444F5E921423E201D7E290@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 4, 9 11:06:50 pm Message-ID: > > I'll look around for you and will place a small posting on our Dutch > collectorslist (cvml). Thank you. > May be something comes up (not a great chance). I think it's unlikely. The HP120/HP125 machines don't seem to be that common (and after looking at the internals, I can see why, I don't think it's a particulalry good design!). Anyhow, I think I've worked out how to interface the HP2523 keyboard and modify the HP150 one. All (!) I need to do is find the bits and solder it all up. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 5 13:25:25 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:25:25 -0600 Subject: vintage computer sighting Message-ID: In the first part of "Three Days of the Condor", there is a PDP-11 clearly visible with tan colored panels and switches. I didn't see a shot close enough to read the model number, however. There is also a very loud printing terminal shown, one I haven't seen before, but its cabinet styling is similar to the styling on the VT05 cabinet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 5 13:35:37 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:35:37 -0600 Subject: vintage computer sighting In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:25:25 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > [...] There is also a > very loud printing terminal shown, one I haven't seen before, but its > cabinet styling is similar to the styling on the VT05 cabinet. Looks like this was the LA30 depicted here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 5 13:37:41 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:37:41 -0600 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? Message-ID: I always thought the VT05 was DEC's first terminal, but it appears that the LA30 was introduced contemporaneously with the VT05. Does anyone have an LA30 in their collection? I know a few people here have a VT05, but I don't recall anyone saying that they have an LA30. If you have one, we could use some decent pictures of it. The extant pictures on the net are small and don't show the keyboard and controls clearly, nor do they show an example of the output. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 5 15:05:11 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 22:05:11 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: References: <91704D2A9D444F5E921423E201D7E290@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 4, 9 11:06:50 pm Message-ID: It's a strange desing using a terminal to interface with a CP/M computer. On the otherhand it's very modern with its Z80 dualcore ;-) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 5 april 2009 18:59 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP262x keyboard voltage > > > > > I'll look around for you and will place a small posting on > our Dutch > > collectorslist (cvml). > > Thank you. > > > May be something comes up (not a great chance). > > I think it's unlikely. The HP120/HP125 machines don't seem to > be that common (and after looking at the internals, I can see > why, I don't think it's a particulalry good design!). > > Anyhow, I think I've worked out how to interface the HP2523 > keyboard and modify the HP150 one. All (!) I need to do is > find the bits and solder it all up. > > -tony > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 5 15:27:58 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 4 Apr 2009, Ian King wrote: > Source files should not be giving you a 'record problem' (since they're > text) - but there is another potential issue. I downloaded some BASIC > source files on a PC, zipped them up and transferred them over to a VAX. > I picked one to compile (this is BASIC we're talking about), and it > failed with an error per line. I opened up the file in TPU and > discovered that there was a 'spurious' CR at the end of each line. I > removed those and everything compiled and linked. Take a look at the > line-level translation that may be happening. -- Ian New-line is not really standardized. Although the machines may all claim to be using ASCII, newline may be represented by CR LF, CR, LF, or LF CR (rarest) The reasons are enough for a thread of its own. From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Apr 5 15:39:11 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: <200904052039.n35KdCar005691@rickmurphy.net> At 02:06 AM 4/5/2009, David Coolbear wrote: > > Did you try this copy of the code? It appears to have the data file > > in plain-text (atext.txt). > > > > > >I tried that and atext.txt looks better, but the fortran source files are >still messed up some how - at least they won't compile and the error >messages imply that there is still a record problem. I also tried a >precompiled executable with the improved atext.txt, but that doesn't work >either. Frequently you can fix record formats using TECO. $ DEFINE TECINI $ EDIT/TECO foo.for * EX$$ (TECO prompts with "*", you type 'EX' to exit.) -Rick From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 5 16:08:11 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vintage computer sighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Richard wrote: > In the first part of "Three Days of the Condor", there is a PDP-11 > clearly visible with tan colored panels and switches. I didn't see a > shot close enough to read the model number, however. There is also a > very loud printing terminal shown, one I haven't seen before, but its > cabinet styling is similar to the styling on the VT05 cabinet. According to "Starring the Computer", there's a PDP-8/E in that picture: http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=12 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 5 16:43:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 14:43:02 -0700 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49D8C376.8420.523B04E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2009 at 13:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > New-line is not really standardized. > Although the machines may all claim to be using ASCII, > newline may be represented by > CR LF, > CR, > LF, > or LF CR (rarest) > > The reasons are enough for a thread of its own. The CDC STAR OS used US as an EOL character. It was useful on a batch- input OS; one could organize a job with US, RS, GS and FS characters. Files consisting of groups of records consisting of units. Makes sense--and odd that it wasn't more widely adopted. One would logically assume that the matter of carriage control would be treated as an issue of formatting, not of delimiting information. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Apr 5 16:53:43 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:53:43 -0400 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49D8C376.8420.523B04E9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> <49D8C376.8420.523B04E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200904051753.43872.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 05 April 2009 05:43:02 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Apr 2009 at 13:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > > New-line is not really standardized. > > Although the machines may all claim to be using ASCII, > > newline may be represented by > > CR LF, > > CR, > > LF, > > or LF CR (rarest) > > > > The reasons are enough for a thread of its own. > > The CDC STAR OS used US as an EOL character. It was useful on a batch- > input OS; one could organize a job with US, RS, GS and FS characters. > Files consisting of groups of records consisting of units. Makes > sense--and odd that it wasn't more widely adopted. One would > logically assume that the matter of carriage control would be treated > as an issue of formatting, not of delimiting information. I remember seeing those and thinking that something of that sort would be a good idea, and wondering if it were actually being done that way. Sometime around the point in time when I first ran across definitions of all that ASCII stuff... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 5 17:14:59 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 22:14:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Classic A/V equipment In-Reply-To: <4E4BA6B0-C502-40F2-8B3C-D098D045B2B9@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <124482.50471.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Erm... is it just me, or is there no video? I did just upgrade my laptops OS from Windows 2K SP3 to SP4, but other .MPG files I have available (including one advertising Commodores CDTV) work with no problems. I am using Windows Media Player 9 to view the .MPG. I also quickly tried it with Realplayer and it's still sound only. Was the bit about a colour carrier and monochrome a joke I am missing, or was there an error in coding the .mpg? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: From: Tore Sinding Bekkedal Subject: Re: Classic A/V equipment To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 24 March, 2009, 6:59 PM I have an ad for the VAX-11/782 that I found while going through the "We're going to throw this crap away if you don't take it!" pile at the 2007 VMS Boot Camp (or "Advanced Technical Seminar" in suit-speak). I did rip it from U-matic tape, but here in Norway I was unable to decode a colour carrier off it, so it is monochrome. The tape is up as: http://gunkies.org/stuff/vax11-782.mpg -Tore :) From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sun Apr 5 17:17:06 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 18:17:06 -0400 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090405060658.2FA033844542@cassini.thecoolbears.org> <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > New-line is not really standardized. > Although the machines may all claim to be using ASCII, > newline may be represented by > CR LF, > CR, > LF, > or LF CR (rarest) Or none of those. VMS and PDP-11 operating systems that use RMS often use sequential variable length record format, in which each record starts with a byte count followed by data, but no end of line character. The record boundary is end of line. OS/360 does the same thing. Then there were the CDC 60-bit operating systems, where EOL is defined as a 60-bit word ending in 2 or more 6-bit characters of 00. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:22:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 18:22:41 -0400 Subject: Classic A/V equipment In-Reply-To: <124482.50471.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4E4BA6B0-C502-40F2-8B3C-D098D045B2B9@ifi.uio.no> <124482.50471.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Erm... is it just me, or is there no video? I tried to view it on a Mac. I saw nothing. Could this be a PAL/NTSC issue or a codec issue? -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:35:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:35:35 -0500 Subject: That museum dumping vintage apples is at it again. Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-37-Vintage-APPLE-Macintosh-Museum-Surplus_W0QQitemZ260387474703QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260387474703&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318 http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-Commodore-128-64-Peripherals-Museum-Surplus_W0QQitemZ260387994927QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260387994927&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318 I wish I lived around there. Pickup only. brian From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:49:33 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:49:33 -0500 Subject: That museum dumping vintage apples is at it again. In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730904051549o13375c2ci9277288102952bbb@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I wish I lived around there. ?Pickup only. Well at least we know they're not "striped." From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 18:02:24 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 18:02:24 -0500 Subject: That museum dumping vintage apples is at it again. In-Reply-To: <51ea77730904051549o13375c2ci9277288102952bbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730904051549o13375c2ci9277288102952bbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904051602n762ed6f2ib7e331e30c34d605@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I wish I lived around there. ?Pickup only. > > Well at least we know they're not "striped." That machine with a square-looking fan grill under the monitor on top is an amiga 1000, upsidedown. brian From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 5 18:02:34 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:02:34 -0600 Subject: vintage computer sighting In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:08:11 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Mike Loewen writes: > On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Richard wrote: > > > In the first part of "Three Days of the Condor", there is a PDP-11 > > clearly visible with tan colored panels and switches. [...] > > According to "Starring the Computer", there's a PDP-8/E in that > picture: > > http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=12 Yep, I stand corrected! Thanks for digging that out, Mike. The female character in that photo does some fiddling with the DECtape spools on top of the CPU :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 5 19:49:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:49:33 -0700 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <49D8EF2D.18880.52E5C8AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2009 at 18:17, Paul Koning wrote: > Then there were the CDC 60-bit operating systems, where EOL is defined > as a 60-bit word ending in 2 or more 6-bit characters of 00. That 00 character sure got overloaded didn't it? You could put two colons in a row only if they fell in the right place. Lowercase alpha was later added by prefixing each lowercase character with 00 and using a different character for colon. 7600 SCOPE 2 Record Manager used I-type records quite a bit with a word prefixing the record giving byte count and other information-- later supported by 6RM/CRM, but the older Z-type record was too firmly established. 7600 SCOPE fascinated me with its approach of nested FLs according to privilege, with differing RAs. So you had a Matryushka doll setup with the user inside of Record Manager, inside of Buffer Manager, inside of Job Supervisor (or something like that; it's been too long). The notion fascinated me enough that as an experiment. I modified 6000 TCM to provide the same sort of service--I tried to work it into a proposal, but the project got canceled before the spec could be published. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 5 19:57:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:57:59 -0700 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904051753.43872.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <49D8C376.8420.523B04E9@cclist.sydex.com>, <200904051753.43872.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49D8F127.29445.52ED813C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2009 at 17:53, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember seeing those and thinking that something of that sort would > be a good idea, and wondering if it were actually being done that > way. Sometime around the point in time when I first ran across > definitions of all that ASCII stuff... One of the terminal collectors (Richard?) could verify this, but I believe that in page edit mode, the Beehive Superbee used US as an end-of-line character. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 5 22:17:39 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:17:39 -0700 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running References: <200904041803.n34I19iA088159@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <20090405132413.L48060@shell.lmi.net> <49D8C376.8420.523B04E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49D97452.7F2FA95D@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The CDC STAR OS used US as an EOL character. It was useful on a batch- > input OS; one could organize a job with US, RS, GS and FS characters. > Files consisting of groups of records consisting of units. Makes > sense--and odd that it wasn't more widely adopted. > One would > logically assume that the matter of carriage control would be treated > as an issue of formatting, not of delimiting information. The Zed language (sibling to C) used one of the separator ASCII characters for end-of-line (IIRC it was RS) for these sorts of reasons. It was nice for clarity and helping to avoid ambiguity. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Apr 6 03:11:39 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 01:11:39 -0700 Subject: HP Laserjet II available in Seattle area Message-ID: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> Rescued a complete Laserjet II from the garbage at my girlfriend's apartment complex, just couldn't let it die like that. It powers up and passes POST, and the fuser heats up OK, but it doesn't want to take paper from the tray. This seems like a common ailment and shouldn't be difficult to fix. I don't have any need for it (got a LJ 4M+ as my workhorse). If anyone wants it, come and get it. (Seattle area.) Josh From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Apr 6 04:04:33 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:04:33 +0100 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <14BE8634-4B5F-4760-B2DA-F5405DBD711B@microspot.co.uk> >>> How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? >> >> Magtape has blocks. > > What exactly is a block? > > Is it defined as a sequence of bits or as a sequence of bytes? > > If its just a sequence of bytes that define a block, I'm not sure I > understand how blocks avoid the stream-of-bytes issue. At the physical level, what really defines a block is that between blocks there are inter block gaps which gives the tape drive time to stop. If the CPU writes one block and then does calculations or (on a machine with a multi tasking OS), runs someone else's job, the drive must stop and wait for the next block to be written. Similarly on reading, but because the drive does not know what will happen on reading, then it has to provide inter-block gaps even when two block writes follow on immediately from each other. Having this physical structure means a tape can ONLY be read as a sequence of blocks, you cannot just ask for n tape frames arbitrarily. By the way, tape frames are really defined by the tracks on the tape, 9 track is 8 bits plus parity, 7 track is I think usually 6 bits plus parity, (1 inch)16 track is 8 bits plus 8 CRC bits, 10 track is 4 bits plus 6 CRC bits. There are of course many formats for 1/4 inch and 1/8 inch, and helical head formats, there was even a VCR backup system for Apple ][ which worked with a VHS recorder and these add an extra physical structure of stripes, though I think these were streaming drives without CPU control of the tape deck, hence no proper inter- block gaps, merely unused tape if the CPU could not keep up whilst writing. Reading was I presume usually of individual files, so stopping was not necessary. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 05:44:43 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 05:44:43 -0500 Subject: HP Laserjet II available in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> References: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Rescued a complete Laserjet II from the garbage at my girlfriend's apartment > complex, just couldn't let it die like that. > > It powers up and passes POST, and the fuser heats up OK, but it doesn't want > to take paper from the tray. ?This seems like a common ailment and shouldn't > be difficult to fix. ?I don't have any need for it (got a LJ 4M+ as my > workhorse). If anyone wants it, come and get it. > > (Seattle area.) Back when these were relatively new, I worked in a computer store fixing these printers among other things. I can't remember if this is the exact ailment, but laserjet 2s and 3s have this little plastic gear that likes to break teeth. As you open the printer, it's on the right side of the fuser, I believe under a plastic cover there. It's about 1/2" in diameter. There's a metal clip holding it in place. It should be easy to cannibalize this from other laserjets if it's not still available. I'm not sure if this is causing your paper pickup problem, but you should definitely check this gear. Also, clean it out and tighten the screws. Laserjet 2s and 3s like to unscrew themselves during general use. The screws work themselves out and fall into the mechanism. Maybe a little loctite is in order. If you hold it upside-down and shake it over your head with the printer door open, some screws will probably shake loose and fall out. brian From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 06:18:35 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 04:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 Laptop In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ben Heckendorn Posted his video and info on his C64 Laptop.. http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwfyBzeidk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 06:54:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:54:08 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet II available in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> References: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Rescued a complete Laserjet II from the garbage at my girlfriend's apartment > complex, just couldn't let it die like that. > > It powers up and passes POST, and the fuser heats up OK, but it doesn't want > to take paper from the tray. ?This seems like a common ailment and shouldn't > be difficult to fix. That's a common problem with most older HP LaserJets. The D-shaped roller at the front of the paper path gets glazed and brittle with age and use and can't pluck paper off the top of the cassette. The last time I fixed an HP printer, the roller was around $5, but you do have to take a bit of the printer apart to get the roller off the shaft. It may be possible to refurbish the surface of the roller (light abrasion or I've heard of chemical rubber restorers), but I myself haven't done that. This roller (and its companion, the transfer pad, have been discussed from time to time on this list - they age, they fail, they need replacing from time to time, independent of usage). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 6 07:39:20 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:39:20 -0600 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:57:59 -0700. <49D8F127.29445.52ED813C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49D8F127.29445.52ED813C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 5 Apr 2009 at 17:53, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I remember seeing those and thinking that something of that sort would > > be a good idea, and wondering if it were actually being done that > > way. Sometime around the point in time when I first ran across > > definitions of all that ASCII stuff... > > One of the terminal collectors (Richard?) could verify this, but I > believe that in page edit mode, the Beehive Superbee used US as an > end-of-line character. Probably, although I can't confirm that specifically. The Beehive terminals did so many damned weird things, though! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 6 07:50:29 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:50:29 -0500 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> I have an LA30 in my collection, although it isn't easily accessible at the moment. Unfortunately, the LA30 uses a non-standard paper width, or perhaps it was standard at the time and just isn't anymore. This combined with immovable tractor feeds make getting paper for it difficult. --tom Richard wrote: > I always thought the VT05 was DEC's first terminal, but it appears > that the LA30 was introduced contemporaneously with the VT05. > > Does anyone have an LA30 in their collection? > > I know a few people here have a VT05, but I don't recall anyone saying > that they have an LA30. > > If you have one, we could use some decent pictures of it. The extant > pictures on the net are small and don't show the keyboard and controls > clearly, nor do they show an example of the output. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Apr 6 09:17:00 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:17:00 -0400 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? References: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Uban writes: Tom> I have an LA30 in my collection, although it isn't easily Tom> accessible at the moment. Unfortunately, the LA30 uses a Tom> non-standard paper width, or perhaps it was standard at the time Tom> and just isn't anymore. This combined with immovable tractor Tom> feeds make getting paper for it difficult. I don't remember it being non-standard. We had one in college, in 1974. We got rid of it as soon as possible because it was even less reliable than an ASR33. It would jam constantly. Sometimes it was the head jamming on the paper, sometimes it was the head jamming on the carriage. Also, it had the worst keyboard I ever saw; it too tended to jam. We replaced it by an LA36, which was faster, and utterly reliable. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 6 09:24:47 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:24:47 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Laptop In-Reply-To: <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DA10AF.6070104@atarimuseum.com> Now THAT is gorgeous! This coming from an Atari guy. Curt Christian Liendo wrote: > Ben Heckendorn Posted his video and info on his C64 Laptop.. > > > http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwfyBzeidk > > > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 6 09:28:17 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:28:17 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64 Laptop In-Reply-To: <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:18 AM -0700 4/6/09, Christian Liendo wrote: >Ben Heckendorn Posted his video and info on his C64 Laptop.. > >http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwfyBzeidk WOW!!! All I can say is DROOL!!! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 6 09:32:03 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:32:03 -0500 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49DA1263.2020007@ubanproductions.com> > I don't remember it being non-standard. The paper is 8.5" wide including the tractor holes, whereas normal paper of that size is 8.5 plus the tractor holes so that once the tractor edges are removed (they are usually perforated), the remaining paper is 8.5 wide. --tom > We had one in college, in 1974. We got rid of it as soon as possible > because it was even less reliable than an ASR33. It would jam > constantly. Sometimes it was the head jamming on the paper, sometimes > it was the head jamming on the carriage. Also, it had the worst > keyboard I ever saw; it too tended to jam. > > We replaced it by an LA36, which was faster, and utterly reliable. > > paul > > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 6 09:40:10 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:40:10 +0200 Subject: Tek 40XX keyboard on epay Message-ID: 190294196331 seller thinks it's made of gold.. -Rik From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Apr 6 09:45:46 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:45:46 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 Laptop In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com><361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <76F18F6807904D5DA75C7FA80AD0B3F3@EDIConsultingLtd.local> A video of the parts being machined would be even more interesting. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 06 April 2009 15:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore 64 Laptop At 4:18 AM -0700 4/6/09, Christian Liendo wrote: >Ben Heckendorn Posted his video and info on his C64 Laptop.. > >http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwfyBzeidk WOW!!! All I can say is DROOL!!! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From shumaker at att.net Mon Apr 6 10:58:15 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:58:15 +0000 Subject: Commodore 64 Laptop In-Reply-To: <76F18F6807904D5DA75C7FA80AD0B3F3@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com><361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <76F18F6807904D5DA75C7FA80AD0B3F3@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <040620091558.13384.49DA2697000681920000344822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Yes! the brief mention of the machining required was intriguing! s shumaker -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Rod Smallwood" > > A video of the parts being machined would be even more interesting. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 06 April 2009 15:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Commodore 64 Laptop > > At 4:18 AM -0700 4/6/09, Christian Liendo wrote: > >Ben Heckendorn Posted his video and info on his C64 Laptop.. > > > >http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwfyBzeidk > > > WOW!!! All I can say is DROOL!!! > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 11:18:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:18:48 -0400 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I always thought the VT05 was DEC's first terminal, but it appears > that the LA30 was introduced contemporaneously with the VT05. > > Does anyone have an LA30 in their collection? I think there is one at RCS/RI. -- Will From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 6 11:18:53 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:18:53 -0700 Subject: Spring cleaning - items available for trade. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> I have been cleaning up the garage to make room for more classic computers and have some items I need to get rid of. Most need quite a bit of cleaning! There are some DEC terminals, an IBM System 36 box, Radio Shack systems and an HP 64000. Not all working, but some are. Look here for more info and photos: http://www.dvq.com/trade/ The stuff is located in the Santa Cruz, CA area. I'm looking to trade for smaller, lighter stuff. Most of the items are big and heavy and probably not worth shipping but if someone really, really wants something, I can try and ship it. There's a UPS store not too far from me that can help, but is not cheap. Bob From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 6 12:08:12 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:08:12 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted for $. In-Reply-To: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> References: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49DA36FC.5060707@cimmeri.com> *Greetings, **I'm looking for the following items for various hobbyist educational projects I'm working on. Top hobbyist dollar paid. **- CompuPro CPU-68k S-100 board. - DEC HSD05. - DEC BA353. - DEC BA350 w/ **BA35X-VA pedestal kit.* *- Hitachi Superscan SVGA monitor, models CM1587 or CM1711. - Sage II 68000 computer. I'm in Maryland, so **unless local **would need shipping. Please reply with asking price and eBay handle if you have one. Thanks very much,** jS (mdnttrain on ebay)* From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:19:40 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:19:40 -0400 Subject: Items Wanted for $. In-Reply-To: <49DA36FC.5060707@cimmeri.com> References: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> <49DA36FC.5060707@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49DA39AC.3000605@gmail.com> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > *Greetings, > > **I'm looking for the following items for various hobbyist educational > projects I'm working on. Top hobbyist dollar paid. > > **- CompuPro CPU-68k S-100 board. > - DEC HSD05. > - DEC BA353. > - DEC BA350 w/ **BA35X-VA pedestal kit.* > *- Hitachi Superscan SVGA monitor, models CM1587 or CM1711. > - Sage II 68000 computer. > > I'm in Maryland, so **unless local **would need shipping. Please reply > with asking price and eBay handle if you have one. Bleh! What's with all the splats? Peace... Sridhar From david at thecoolbears.org Mon Apr 6 12:20:17 2009 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:20:17 -0700 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running) In-Reply-To: <200904061700.n36H0nFk032974@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090406172025.5BB16384462E@cassini.thecoolbears.org> >> Source files should not be giving you a 'record problem' (since they're >> text) - but there is another potential issue. I downloaded some BASIC >> source files on a PC, zipped them up and transferred them over to a VAX. >> I picked one to compile (this is BASIC we're talking about), and it >> failed with an error per line. I opened up the file in TPU and >> discovered that there was a 'spurious' CR at the end of each line. I >> removed those and everything compiled and linked. Take a look at the >> line-level translation that may be happening. -- Ian > New-line is not really standardized. > Although the machines may all claim to be using ASCII, > newline may be represented by > CR LF, > CR, > LF, > or LF CR (rarest) > > The reasons are enough for a thread of its own. This is almost exactly what I was seeing. I was able to resolve the problem by NOT transferring the source files with FTP's binary image mode turned on. I was then able to compile the source and I'm now in a maze of twisty passages all alike. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 6 12:34:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:34:35 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <14BE8634-4B5F-4760-B2DA-F5405DBD711B@microspot.co.uk> References: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <14BE8634-4B5F-4760-B2DA-F5405DBD711B@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <49D9DABB.6767.567DE224@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2009 at 10:04, Roger Holmes wrote: > At the physical level, what really defines a block is that between > blocks there are inter block gaps which gives the tape drive time to > stop. If the CPU writes one block and then does calculations or (on a > machine with a multi tasking OS), runs someone else's job, the drive > must stop and wait for the next block to be written. Similarly on > reading, but because the drive does not know what will happen on > reading, then it has to provide inter-block gaps even when two block > writes follow on immediately from each other. Another way to think of it is that a block is to a tape what a sector is to a disk. You can't read or write less than that unit. Unlike most disks, there is no requirement for blocks on a tape to be the same length--and there is an extra type of block, the tapemark that allows for high-speed positioning between sections of tape. Another aspect of tape operation is that a drive must get a running start at reading or writing, which is where the gap/IRG comes in (which is why you want to minimize the need for a tape to stop motion). Streamers, (e.g. Cipher) when stopped back up quite a distance before beginning a read or write. Vacuum-column tape drives generally accelerate the tape quickly enough within the space of the gap. I don't know if it's true anymore, but in the EDP world, knowing how to do an efficient external sort on tape (cf: oscillating merge, polyphase merge, cascade merge, balanced merge) used to be a requirement for a programmer. Now, it's probably a lost art. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 6 12:35:52 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:35:52 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted for $. In-Reply-To: <49DA39AC.3000605@gmail.com> References: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> <49DA36FC.5060707@cimmeri.com> <49DA39AC.3000605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DA3D78.10808@cimmeri.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> snip ... I'm in Maryland, so **unless local **would need shipping. >> Please reply with asking price and eBay handle if you have one. > > Bleh! > What's with all the splats? > Peace... Sridhar *Sorry. I didn't type them. Don't know why but my Thunderbird email program throws them in randomly all by itself in plain text msgs.* From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Apr 6 12:48:31 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:48:31 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running References: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14BE8634-4B5F-4760-B2DA-F5405DBD711B@microspot.co.uk> <49D9DABB.6767.567DE224@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18906.16495.476576.43112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> I don't know if it's true anymore, but in the EDP world, Chuck> knowing how to do an efficient external sort on tape (cf: Chuck> oscillating merge, polyphase merge, cascade merge, balanced Chuck> merge) used to be a requirement for a programmer. Now, it's Chuck> probably a lost art. Not quite; it's still written up in detail in Knuth volume 3. Some of this stuff still makes sense. You still need external sort to sort really large data files, and algorithms that access the external files sequentially are still winners even with disk files. paul From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 6 13:09:49 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:09:49 -0500 Subject: Wanted: CompuPro, DEC, Hitachi, Sage items [clean text re-post] Message-ID: <49DA456D.8080907@cimmeri.com> I'm looking for the following items for various hobbyist educational projects I'm working on. Top hobbyist dollar paid. - CompuPro CPU-68k S-100 board. - DEC HSD05. - DEC BA353. - DEC BA350 w/ BA35X-VA pedestal kit. - Hitachi Superscan SVGA monitor, models CM1587 or CM1711. - Sage II 68000 computer. I'm in Maryland, so unless local would need shipping. Please reply with asking price and eBay handle if you have one. Thanks very much, jS (mdnttrain on ebay) From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 6 13:16:56 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:16:56 -0400 Subject: New Cromemco Forum Message-ID: <01C9B6C2.B1332700@host-208-72-122-141.dyn.295.ca> Hi there! In case you hadn't heard, there is now a new Google group for us Cromemco fans at: http://groups.google.com/group/cromemco?hl=en If you're interested why not join us and help make it a friendly place for exchanging info etc. Hope to see you there! Mike From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 6 13:18:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:18:41 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <18906.16495.476576.43112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18906.16495.476576.43112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49D9E511.950.56A6407E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2009 at 13:48, Paul Koning wrote: > Some of this stuff still makes sense. You still need external sort to > sort really large data files, and algorithms that access the external > files sequentially are still winners even with disk files. Or bulk core. Sometime during the 70's, a fellow worker and I were teamed to produce a sort that could make efficient use of what was then large amounts of ECS. It was an attempt to salvage the utility of the installed ALS hardware, where every installation had at least 2M words of ECS--and some had 4M. The volume of data to be sorted, however, was much larger than this, necessitating an external sort of some kind. We thought that surely, with a large fast random-access medium, we'd be able to improve on traditional tape external sorts. After a couple of weeks of scribbling on whiteboards and headscratching, the conclusion was that, no--the traditional external sorts were really pretty good even with bulk core. I recall both Flores and Knuth (with the fold-out tape motion charts) were around much of the time. (For those unfamiliar with CDC architecture, ECS was an external bulk- core device with significant transfer initialization latency, but once going, could transfer a block at full memory bandwidth. There were only two instructions--read and write--to access it) ECS could also be shared by several machines, which for our project, made it particularly valuable.) --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 6 13:30:26 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:30:26 -0400 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? Message-ID: <01C9B6C4.6C0CE740@mandr71> ---------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:50:29 -0500 From: Tom Uban Subject: Re: LA30 - anyone got one? I have an LA30 in my collection, although it isn't easily accessible at the moment. Unfortunately, the LA30 uses a non-standard paper width, or perhaps it was standard at the time and just isn't anymore. This combined with immovable tractor feeds make getting paper for it difficult. --tom ---------------Reply: Any idea what the actual width is? I'm about to throw out a few boxes of pinfeed paper of various sizes; maybe some is useful after all. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 6 13:32:40 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:32:40 -0600 Subject: Tek 40XX keyboard on epay In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:40:10 +0200. Message-ID: In article , "Rik Bos" writes: > 190294196331 > seller thinks it's made of gold.. This is the same guy in NY that always overprices everything and puts the same boiler plate on all his listings "This piece of history will display well in your vintage computer collection.". In addition to the guy having high prices, even for ebay, he doesn't properly pack items for shipment so they arrive damaged. I bought a rare terminal from him and it arrived as smashed piles of plastic. He clearly used an insufficient box for the weight, looks like he just grabbed any old box from behind a supermarket, and there wasn't enough padding to protect the terminal. He refunded some of my money, but still it was bad enough that I won't ever buy from him again unless the price is reasonable (hardly ever) and the item can't be damaged by his poor packing jobs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 6 13:34:21 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:34:21 -0600 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:34:35 -0700. <49D9DABB.6767.567DE224@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49D9DABB.6767.567DE224 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I don't know if it's true anymore, but in the EDP world, knowing how > to do an efficient external sort on tape (cf: oscillating merge, > polyphase merge, cascade merge, balanced merge) used to be a > requirement for a programmer. Now, it's probably a lost art. Its not a lost art because several of these algorithms are documented in Knuth's Art of Computer Programming. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 6 13:43:36 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spring cleaning - items available for trade. In-Reply-To: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <134755.42789.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The VT52, VT101 and Letterprinter have been claimed. Thanks, Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 13:39:29 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:39:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 5, 9 10:05:11 pm Message-ID: > > It's a strange desing using a terminal to interface with a CP/M computer. A bit like an H89/Z90 :-) I was looking at the HP120 design at a lower level. There are, as you said, 2 processors. They communciate by a simple 1-byte parallel interface, and AFAIK you can't run user code on the 'terminal' processor. The terminal side uses that strange video chip I asked about a couple of weeks back. It interrupts the terminal Z80 on every character line, the Z80 then loads the start address of that line into the processor and the apporpriate attributes into a latch. The video chip then does DMA and fetches 80 byes from memory into an octal 80-bit shift register chip. This is sent to the character generator and then to the CRT. Note I mentioned that attirbutes are loaded per line. On each line, a character is either 'normal' or has the atributes applies (some combination of underlined, blinking, intensified, etc). Note you can't have some underlined (but normal brightness) and some intesified (but not underlined) characters on the same line. There's also no grpahics capability. This would be reasonable if memory was limited, but that terminal processor has 16K RAM and 32K ROM hung off it. The serial ports are on the terminal processor bus Now the user processor has 64K RAM, and an 8K ROM that can be paged out. It also has the HPIB itnerface on its bus. And from what I can tell, the HPIB interface is polled, there are no interrupts. I mentioend the lack of any form of graphics. I also can't find any way for a program on the user processor to configure the serial ports. You do that from the setup menu, which is code running on the terminal processor. And while there's an exteded CP/M BIOS function to send a byte to an HPIB device, there doesn't seem to be one to read from an HPIB device. Yes, OK, since the HPIB controller is in the user processor I/O space it's possible to get round that, but since the disk drives are hung off that HPIB port, you could easily get the thing into a state where it couldn't access the disks, or worse managed to corrupt them. I find the sales pitch for this series of machines (on hpmusuem.net) to be worring due to the number of misconceptions and downright lies it spreads about comepeting machines. I would have though an HP machine should be able to stand on its own merits (most, IMHO, can!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 13:45:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:45:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Laserjet II available in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Apr 6, 9 05:44:43 am Message-ID: > Back when these were relatively new, I worked in a computer store > fixing these printers among other things. I can't remember if this is > the exact ailment, but laserjet 2s and 3s have this little plastic > gear that likes to break teeth. As you open the printer, it's on the > right side of the fuser, I believe under a plastic cover there. It's > about 1/2" in diameter. There's a metal clip holding it in place. It > should be easy to cannibalize this from other laserjets if it's not > still available. I'm not sure if this is causing your paper pickup > problem, but you should definitely check this gear. Also, clean it No, that gear (and the ones associated with it -- I've had the large one on the fuser roller itself crack -- cause paper james in the fuser area (because the fuser rollers don't turn). Pickup problesm are normally dues ot the D-shaped roller on the pickup shaft (at the front of the printer) and the pad it presses against. You have to dismantle a few sections to get it out (outer case, front frame, HV power supply, mains power supply, registeration assembly), but it's quite straightforward, and the parts are not expensive. Some people change the complete pickup shaft 'because it's easier', but to be honest, once youy got the shaft out, changing thr roller only is just a matter of a few circlips. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 6 13:59:10 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:59:10 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2009 at 12:34, Richard wrote: > Its not a lost art because several of these algorithms are documented > in Knuth's Art of Computer Programming. So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him to write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. An art may still be lost in practice even if there's literature around describing it. --Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 6 14:02:13 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:02:13 -0500 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: <01C9B6C4.6C0CE740@mandr71> References: <01C9B6C4.6C0CE740@mandr71> Message-ID: <49DA51B5.9080304@ubanproductions.com> M H Stein wrote: > ---------------Original Message: > Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:50:29 -0500 > From: Tom Uban > Subject: Re: LA30 - anyone got one? > > > I have an LA30 in my collection, although it isn't easily accessible > at the moment. Unfortunately, the LA30 uses a non-standard paper width, > or perhaps it was standard at the time and just isn't anymore. This > combined with immovable tractor feeds make getting paper for it difficult. > > --tom > ---------------Reply: > Any idea what the actual width is? I'm about to throw out a few boxes > of pinfeed paper of various sizes; maybe some is useful after all. > Ok. You peaked my curiosity enough to climb over a bunch of junk and take a measurement. I didn't remember exactly right as the width of the paper used by the LA30 is wider (not narrower) than normal. The distance between the tractor pins on the LA30 is 9-3/8" and on normal paper it is 8-15/16"... If you have a box of the "non-standard" paper, I am interested! :-) --tom From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Apr 6 14:12:14 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:12:14 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running References: <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18906.21518.485429.550080@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 6 Apr 2009 at 12:34, Richard wrote: >> Its not a lost art because several of these algorithms are >> documented in Knuth's Art of Computer Programming. Chuck> So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask Chuck> him to write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. Chuck> An art may still be lost in practice even if there's Chuck> literature around describing it. Huh? I don't think polyphase sort was *ever* something J Random Programmer could just throw together, without reading the literature. On the other hand, given good literature (which is readily available) any competent programmer can create the implementation. Age isn't the issue. It may be strange to see polyphase sort in C# or Java, but what the heck... :-) paul From toby at coreware.co.uk Mon Apr 6 14:18:41 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:18:41 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/M power supply questions In-Reply-To: <1238528013.6525.165.camel@spasmo> References: <1238528013.6525.165.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1239045521.32178.4.camel@spasmo> I've managed to find out a little more about the two missing components on my PDP-8/Ms power supply and alas they look most vital! One is a DEC 1110714 bridge rectifier and the other is a MJ900 transistor. I think I've sourced the MJ900 but can't find anywhere stocking the 1110714. Does anyone know an alternative non-DEC part number for the rectifier? Many thanks, Toby On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 20:33 +0100, Tobias Russell wrote: > I've just started the rebuild of one of my PDP-8/Ms. This is an early > machine with the power supply mounted on the left of the chassis. > > One potential problem I am slightly concerned about is that the front > two power transistors have been desoldered and removed. Does anyone know > if these are a vital part of the PSU and if so what the part numbers are > so I can try to source replacements? > > You can see a picture here http://www.pdp8.co.uk/ (enlarged view here > http://www.pdp8.co.uk/files/2009/03/00016.jpg) > > If anyone else has a PSU of this type, could they take the opportunity > to take a few pictures for me. Would be really useful to have another > reference source for the rebuild. > > All the best, > Toby > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 6 14:57:46 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:57:46 -0500 Subject: Items Wanted for $. In-Reply-To: <49DA3D78.10808@cimmeri.com> References: <49DA2B6D.2040906@sbcglobal.net> <49DA36FC.5060707@cimmeri.com> <49DA39AC.3000605@gmail.com> <49DA3D78.10808@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49DA5EBA.6000101@oldskool.org> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > >> What's with all the splats? > > *Sorry. I didn't type them. Don't know why but my Thunderbird email > program throws them in randomly all by itself in plain text msgs.* Thunderbird puts in "splats" around bolded or italicized items in HTML mail that then have to be sent out via plain text. So, either send out HTML mail without conversion to text, or stop bolding everything in your mail (if this is default, maybe switch to a non-bolded font like Courier?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 15:00:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:00:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8/M power supply questions In-Reply-To: <1239045521.32178.4.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Apr 6, 9 08:18:41 pm Message-ID: > One is a DEC 1110714 bridge rectifier and the other is a MJ900 > transistor. I think I've sourced the MJ900 but can't find anywhere > stocking the 1110714. > > Does anyone know an alternative non-DEC part number for the rectifier? Are you sure it's a _bridge_ rectifier? I thought you said it was a TO3 can, DEC often used a double-diode in that case (common cathode to the case, anode to the 2 pins -- sort of a semiconductor version of an EZ80 :-)) as a biphase full-wave rectifier with a centre-tapped transformer winding. In any case it should be fairly easy to get some diodes with sufficient forward courrent capacity (and enough PIV -- rememebr this is _twice_ the peak voltag from the transformer!) to do the job and just wire them up appropritately. There should be enough spave in a PDP8/M PSU to fit them in. It may not look original, but it'll get the machine going and you can always fit the original part if you find one. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 6 15:02:03 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:02:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Well, I'm 29 (30 this year!) and although I'm not a professional programmer I do pick up things on this list which I add to my 'something to learn' list. I can't say I'll know how to do it before I hit 30 (September) as I have too many other projects going right now, but I'll see if I can learn how to do it before I hit 31! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 6/4/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: The VAX is running To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, 6 April, 2009, 7:59 PM On 6 Apr 2009 at 12:34, Richard wrote: > Its not a lost art because several of these algorithms are documented > in Knuth's Art of Computer Programming. So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him to write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. An art may still be lost in practice even if there's literature around describing it. --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 6 15:33:31 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:33:31 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 Laptop In-Reply-To: <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380904051535l2f2eb740i52eb1307a10c0584@mail.gmail.com> <361960.76498.qm@web112202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DA671B.9030508@sbcglobal.net> Christian Liendo wrote: > Ben Heckendorn Posted his video and info on his C64 Laptop.. > > > http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwfyBzeidk > Yep. I want one.... Brings back good memories.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 6 15:40:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> > So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him to > write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. > An art may still be lost in practice even if there's literature > around describing it. I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly have learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an optimized "bubble" is better for. When presented with "write a sort for a database that is too large to fit into memory", the only response that they can think of is "well, get more memory." I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up mailing labels because the printer didn't have a reverse line-feed! There are way too many "computer scientists" who haven't even read Knuth. "They only assigned a few specific pages" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 6 15:49:06 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:49:06 -0300 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0e9701c9b6f9$371d0350$fb4019bb@DeskJara> > I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up mailing labels > because the printer didn't have a reverse line-feed! REVERSE LINE FEED? Never heard of that. What is a 3-up mailing label? That perforated roll of three mailing labels per line? I can do that in BASIC with just one of the hands. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Apr 6 15:56:23 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:56:23 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: >> So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him >> to write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. An art may >> still be lost in practice even if there's literature around >> describing it. Fred> I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly Fred> have learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually Fred> "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an Fred> optimized "bubble" is better for. Fred> When presented with "write a sort for a database that is too Fred> large to fit into memory", the only response that they can Fred> think of is "well, get more memory." Fred> I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up Fred> mailing labels because the printer didn't have a reverse Fred> line-feed! Fred> There are way too many "computer scientists" who haven't even Fred> read Knuth. "They only assigned a few specific pages" This is a good way to sort the ones worth hiring from those who are not. paul From mmaginnis at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:02:46 2009 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:02:46 -0600 Subject: A few free items Message-ID: A few items to give away. I came across a box of stuff as I was cleaning out the server room. Might be of interest to someone, might not. I'd prefer local pickup (Denver, CO area), but could be persuaded to ship if you cover S/H. * CHIPS Enhanced Graphics Card Rev 1.0 * Headland Technology 16-bit ISA VGA video card VGA-16 650-0122 (c) 1988 * GPIB IEEE-488 board, unknown manuf. 8-bit ISA. "6323706 REV A 667523" printed on PCB, next to a logo like a palm tree with a small "2" next to it. * Adaptec AHA-1542B 16-bit ISA SCSI card * Unknown board from "The Palantir Corporation" (c) 1988 - has a Motorola 68020. 16-bit ISA. Maybe a co-processor board? * 5 9-track tapes,3M and Memorex. One is labeled "MultiNet 3.2 Rev A", another "MultiNet 3.2, Rev B". Others are hand-labeled. No idea what's actually on them. They probably haven't been used since the early 90's. All of these items are untested and provided AS IS. Anything unclaimed goes to the recycle bin. I'll put some images up tonight when I get home from work, if anyone's interested. - Mike From toby at coreware.co.uk Mon Apr 6 15:59:14 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:59:14 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/M power supply questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1239051554.32178.21.camel@spasmo> Thanks Tony, Yes pretty sure its a bridge rectifier as I found H740 schematics plus opened up my other 8-M which I now realise has essentially the same power supply. I guess DEC just made slight design revisions plus reposition the supply in order to solve the unreliability of these earlier units. Studying the schematic further I've found NSS-3514 annotated next to the rectifier (sorry missed this when I first looked through it) so I'll see if I can hunt down this part. If not I'll try the diode approach Thanks, Toby On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 21:00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > One is a DEC 1110714 bridge rectifier and the other is a MJ900 > > transistor. I think I've sourced the MJ900 but can't find anywhere > > stocking the 1110714. > > > > Does anyone know an alternative non-DEC part number for the rectifier? > > Are you sure it's a _bridge_ rectifier? I thought you said it was a TO3 > can, DEC often used a double-diode in that case (common cathode to the > case, anode to the 2 pins -- sort of a semiconductor version of an EZ80 > :-)) as a biphase full-wave rectifier with a centre-tapped transformer > winding. > > In any case it should be fairly easy to get some diodes with sufficient > forward courrent capacity (and enough PIV -- rememebr this is _twice_ the > peak voltag from the transformer!) to do the job and just wire them up > appropritately. There should be enough spave in a PDP8/M PSU to fit them > in. It may not look original, but it'll get the machine going and you can > always fit the original part if you find one. > > -tony > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 6 16:07:32 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:07:32 +0200 Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure NOT ANY MORE ! In-Reply-To: References: <780E605DE9B444EEBB2D253D36476005@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 4, 9 11:00:47 pm Message-ID: <3B1F0161729C4509A14B64D7EF3E87F9@xp1800> To keep you posted : I made a error by stating the -12V was wrong, it was the +12V that's why I replaced the uA723. (mea culpa etc....) The TMS4060's don't have a -12V connection they get +5,+12,0,-5V. The board is working again, the VCC pin of lowerbit 9 had a resistance of 12.5 ohm to the VCC-line. The A10 pin of the same chip didn't connect to anything. A little bypassing did the job, so thanks for your advice. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 5 april 2009 18:57 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure > > > > > destroyed all the rams TMS4080. > > > > > > This puzzles me a bit. The -12V rail is regulated down to > -5V using > > > a resistor/zener circuit,. and it's the -5V that's used > by the RAMs. > > > I assume you've checked this voltage. > > > > > > Or did the -12 disappear, removning the bias from the DRAMs and > > > cooking them? > > The -12V was defective (not on this machine but on another witch I > > fixed > > (uA723 replaced) and put a 8k board in it.) > > I thought hte -12V rail came from a 3-terminal regulator > (7912 or similar). There's a 723 in the _+12V_ supply IIRC though. > > > That wasn't the problem, the errors are a bit erratic > always the same > > bit 9 but not always the same address. > > Today I replaced the address buffer ('LS368) but that wasn't the > > solution too. > > I think you're going to have to do some measurements before > reolacing odd components at random. As I mentioned. some of > these old HP boards don't like being resoldered too often, > the through-hole plating fails and leads to more problems. > Please don't ask how I discovered this! > > > > I've had vias fail on old HP boards when soldering/desoldering > > > components. My next task would be to check that all pins > on all RAMs > > > go to the rignt places and that none are left floating. > > > > I'll think I'm going to do that I got a current tracer, so > I'm going > > to use that first. > > Using an ohmmeter on the board (with it powered down, of > course) will verify that all the address lines are connected > between the RAMs, etc. > > -tony > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 6 16:10:02 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:10:02 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 1:56 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running > > >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: > > >> So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him > >> to write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. An art may > >> still be lost in practice even if there's literature around > >> describing it. > > Fred> I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly > Fred> have learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually > Fred> "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an > Fred> optimized "bubble" is better for. > > Fred> When presented with "write a sort for a database that is too > Fred> large to fit into memory", the only response that they can > Fred> think of is "well, get more memory." > > Fred> I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up > Fred> mailing labels because the printer didn't have a reverse > Fred> line-feed! > > Fred> There are way too many "computer scientists" who haven't even > Fred> read Knuth. "They only assigned a few specific pages" > > This is a good way to sort the ones worth hiring from those who are > not. > > paul > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. My primary goal was to observe their coding habits, but the radix-8 aspect of the problem scuttled a lot of them! What was really sad was how many had trouble with type itself: realizing that a C int type is nothing more than an abstraction ascribing a meaning to a bit pattern. Many couldn't help but think of an int as a hex number - or in some cases, a decimal one. Happily, some of them whipped through that problem and then asked me for something that had some "chew" to it. Those were the ones I hired.... When people say there's no such thing as a stupid question, I disagree: "Will this be on the test?" :-) -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 6 16:13:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:13:37 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49DA0E11.25028.574659C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2009 at 13:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly have > learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually "Shell-Metzner"), > without understanding which situations an optimized "bubble" is better > for. Heh. When I worked on a compiler that produced on-line listings, the issue of printing the cross-reference list came up. Space was tight (this was a 64KB systerm) and disks (floppy) were slow. It turned out that a simple selection sort was more than adequate to keep the printer busy. Internal sorts were a gotcha on the STAR too. SInce *all* instructions were essentially vector (with scalar being treated as a vector of length 1), startup overhead for short vectors and scalars was hideous. For arrays of less than about 1000 words, a simple selection sort was faster than any of the "super-duper" algorithms, as one could use a single vector select instruction. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 6 16:16:04 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:16:04 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 5, 9 10:05:11 pm Message-ID: According to the museum site (www.hpmuseum.net) the electronics of the HP125 and HP120 are mostly the same. It seems the housing and screen size are the biggest difference between these machines. I didn't checked my HP125 out just tested and fixed (bad video ram 4116) it when I got it, and ran some progs CP/M on it. I like the looks of it, not the internal design solutions. Playing with a 200 or 300 series is more fun. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 6 april 2009 20:39 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP262x keyboard voltage > > > > > It's a strange desing using a terminal to interface with a > CP/M computer. > > A bit like an H89/Z90 :-) > > I was looking at the HP120 design at a lower level. There > are, as you said, 2 processors. They communciate by a simple > 1-byte parallel interface, and AFAIK you can't run user code > on the 'terminal' processor. > > The terminal side uses that strange video chip I asked about > a couple of weeks back. It interrupts the terminal Z80 on > every character line, the Z80 then loads the start address of > that line into the processor and the apporpriate attributes > into a latch. The video chip then does DMA and fetches 80 > byes from memory into an octal 80-bit shift register chip. > This is sent to the character generator and then to the CRT. > > Note I mentioned that attirbutes are loaded per line. On each > line, a character is either 'normal' or has the atributes > applies (some combination of underlined, blinking, > intensified, etc). Note you can't have some underlined (but > normal brightness) and some intesified (but not > underlined) characters on the same line. There's also no > grpahics capability. This would be reasonable if memory was > limited, but that terminal processor has 16K RAM and 32K ROM > hung off it. The serial ports are on the terminal processor bus > > Now the user processor has 64K RAM, and an 8K ROM that can be > paged out. > It also has the HPIB itnerface on its bus. And from what I > can tell, the HPIB interface is polled, there are no interrupts. > > I mentioend the lack of any form of graphics. I also can't > find any way for a program on the user processor to configure > the serial ports. You do that from the setup menu, which is > code running on the terminal processor. > > And while there's an exteded CP/M BIOS function to send a > byte to an HPIB device, there doesn't seem to be one to read > from an HPIB device. Yes, OK, since the HPIB controller is in > the user processor I/O space it's possible to get round that, > but since the disk drives are hung off that HPIB port, you > could easily get the thing into a state where it couldn't > access the disks, or worse managed to corrupt them. > > I find the sales pitch for this series of machines (on > hpmusuem.net) to be worring due to the number of > misconceptions and downright lies it spreads about comepeting > machines. I would have though an HP machine should be able to > stand on its own merits (most, IMHO, can!). > > -tony > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Apr 6 16:17:46 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:17:46 -0700 Subject: Repair: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure References: Message-ID: <000901c9b6fd$21f62390$0201a8c0@hal9000> I think Tony will agree with me, if not I'll hear about it. If you want to save the board and don't care about the ( dead ) DIP ICs you are removing, cut all the legs off of the DIPs and remove them one-by-one with minimal heat and long-nosed pliers. Also don't use solder wick but rather poke a round wooden toothpick in the hole to clean it out. This will cause the least amount of damage to the board and I haven't lost a via yet with this method. Good luck. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:04 PM Subject: Re: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure > > I've had vias fail on old HP boards when soldering/desoldering > components. My next task would be to check that all pins on all RAMs go > to the rignt places and that none are left floating. > > And then do make sure that all address, data, etc pins are being driving > nad that none are floating around. > > -tony From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 6 16:25:10 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:25:10 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> Ian King wrote: > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. Mine has always been to postulate a singly-linked list with each node containing a string value, then ask them to write something to print out the list in reverse order. There's a bunch of obvious ways to solve that problem; the nice thing about it is that depending on the answer that they give you can apply more constraints (copying isn't allowed, memory is constrained, optimize for speed, whatever) in order to better estimate their approach to solving problems. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 6 16:33:55 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:33:55 -0700 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <18906.21518.485429.550080@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: Message-ID: <49DA12D3.23841.5758E383@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2009 at 15:12, Paul Koning wrote: > On the other hand, given good literature (which is readily available) > any competent programmer can create the implementation. Age isn't the > issue. It may be strange to see polyphase sort in C# or Java, but > what the heck... :-) But there's the "art" aspect. Anyone can paint by numbers or use a cookbook or program an algorithm given in a textbook. That doesn't make one a painter or a chef or a programmer-artist (I don't have a better word). I'm inclined to think that Knuth intended that expressive facility when he titlled his series "The Art of Programming", not "How to Program". But I wouldn't presume to put words in his mouth. Besides, I learned my sorting from the Flores book. :) --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:35:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:35:18 -0400 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <49D8F127.29445.52ED813C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 8:39 AM, Richard wrote: > Probably, although I can't confirm that specifically. ?The Beehive > terminals did so many damned weird things, though! I wish I still had my Beehive terminal - I got it from OCLC in the mid-1980s, but it was damaged in a flood a few years later and was too rusted for me to think about repairing (I lost a Diablo 30 "RK03" in the same flood). I remember having problems getting it strapped right to work with a PDP-8 or a PDP-11 - it was a strange beast. -ethan From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:41:13 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:41:13 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Ian King wrote: > >> I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a >> null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. > > Mine has always been to postulate a singly-linked list with each node > containing a string value, then ask them to write something to print out > the list in reverse order. ?There's a bunch of obvious ways to solve > that problem; the nice thing about it is that depending on the answer > that they give you can apply more constraints (copying isn't allowed, > memory is constrained, optimize for speed, whatever) in order to better > estimate their approach to solving problems. > I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, right Professor McCarthy? :) void print-list(node *n) { if (n->next != 0) print-list(n->next); printf("%s\n", n->string); } The string-of-octal to int is an interesting one too, I'd do it by banking on the "one octal digit = 3 bits" trick but I'm sure Ian saw some interesting answers... as a computer engineering student, I do wonder if CS undergrads are getting the same kind of explanations as us: "This is hex. One hex number -> 4 binary bits. Here, do some math in hex by hand." It's the CE courses that have really led me to understand how computers work, while CS seems to care less about the representation and more about how super awesome Java is. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:46:07 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:46:07 -0400 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running) In-Reply-To: <20090406172025.5BB16384462E@cassini.thecoolbears.org> References: <200904061700.n36H0nFk032974@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090406172025.5BB16384462E@cassini.thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:20 PM, David Coolbear wrote: >>> Source files should not be giving you a 'record problem' (since they're >>> text) - but there is another potential issue. >>> ... discovered that there was a 'spurious' CR at the end of each line. ?I >>> removed those and everything compiled and linked. ?Take a look at the >>> line-level translation that may be happening. ?-- Ian > > This is almost exactly what I was seeing. I was able to resolve the problem > by NOT transferring the source files with FTP's binary image mode turned on. Ah... there you go... text files must be transmitted between architectures and platforms in text mode to allow the tool to Do The Right Thing(tm). Both ftp servers and clients can communicate in an RFC-described manner, but each end is ultimately responsible for knowing what a text file is on their own systems and translating as required. VMS itself doesn't represent files internally (i.e., on the filesystem) as streams of bytes with CR or LF or a combination at the end of a line. An RMS text file is a series of variable length records that are converted to things like null terminated strings, etc., by, IIRC, a combination of RMS and the run-time-library for your application's language (VAXCRTL.EXE, etc.) This is conceptually quite different from how DOS and UNIX and AmigaDOS, etc., etc., do things. > I was then able to compile the source and I'm now in a maze of twisty > passages all alike. Excellent. Congrats! -ethan From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 6 17:01:07 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:01:07 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> John Floren wrote: > I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, > right Professor McCarthy? :) Only if you have an arbitrary amount of memory available. What if you're constrained to a handful of automatics? -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 6 16:58:30 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:58:30 -0500 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <18906.16495.476576.43112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14BE8634-4B5F-4760-B2DA-F5405DBD711B@microspot.co.uk> <49D9DABB.6767.567DE224@cclist.sydex.com> <18906.16495.476576.43112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090406165739.07f62a30@mail.threedee.com> At 12:48 PM 4/6/2009, Paul Koning wrote: >Some of this stuff still makes sense. You still need external sort to >sort really large data files, and algorithms that access the external >files sequentially are still winners even with disk files. As routine files are measured in gigabytes or larger, hard drives seem more like tape drives. It takes a while to move things. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 6 17:05:49 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:05:49 -0600 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Kennedy wrote: > John Floren wrote: > >> I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, >> right Professor McCarthy? :) > > Only if you have an arbitrary amount of memory available. What if > you're constrained to a handful of automatics? What if all you got is a PDP8 with 4K... :) From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Apr 6 17:20:07 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:20:07 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49DA8017.3050100@nktelco.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Chris Kennedy wrote: >> John Floren wrote: >> >>> I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, >>> right Professor McCarthy? :) >> >> Only if you have an arbitrary amount of memory available. What if >> you're constrained to a handful of automatics? > > What if all you got is a PDP8 with 4K... :) > That just makes the list shorter. :-) From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Apr 6 17:18:29 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:18:29 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <49DA7FB5.4040005@nktelco.net> Chris Kennedy wrote: > John Floren wrote: > > >> I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, >> right Professor McCarthy? :) >> > > Only if you have an arbitrary amount of memory available. What if > you're constrained to a handful of automatics? > > Two extra pointers... run down the list saving the previous node until you get to the end. Print the last node. Run down until you get to the previous node of the last run down the list and print it. Repeat the previous sentence until you have printed the first node. No copying, very little extra storage, but you exchange that for long runtime. I'm a CE, not a programmer, so this is probably wrong. -chuck From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 17:22:59 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:22:59 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7d3530220904061522k517e91ffm70fe8c61800ea2d2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 6:05 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Chris Kennedy wrote: >> >> John Floren wrote: >> >>> I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, >>> right Professor McCarthy? :) >> >> Only if you have an arbitrary amount of memory available. ?What if >> you're constrained to a handful of automatics? > > What if all you got is a PDP8 with 4K... :) > > Well, you probably wouldn't be programming in C, then ;) John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Apr 6 17:28:49 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:28:49 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > There are way too many "computer scientists" who haven't even read Knuth. > "They only assigned a few specific pages. > But aren't those books written with assembly as the language for the examples? First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly language. And second, it isn't even for a "real" machine. It is something he cooked up. So you read the book and you didn't even learn to program a real computer. Where are the marketable skills? -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 6 17:28:56 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <0e9701c9b6f9$371d0350$fb4019bb@DeskJara> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <0e9701c9b6f9$371d0350$fb4019bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20090406152552.X2566@shell.lmi.net> > > I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up mailing labels > > because the printer didn't have a reverse line-feed! On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: > REVERSE LINE FEED? Never heard of that. What is a 3-up mailing label? > That perforated roll of three mailing labels per line? I can do that in > BASIC with just one of the hands. Yep. He was able to print one column of labels, with a \n at the end of each line, and then was stuck because he couldn't make the printer go back up to the top of the page again! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 6 17:31:28 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:31:28 -0500 Subject: A few free items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DA82C0.3020400@pacbell.net> Mike Maginnis wrote: > A few items to give away. > > I came across a box of stuff as I was cleaning out the server room. > Might be of interest to someone, might not. I'd prefer local pickup > (Denver, CO area), but could be persuaded to ship if you cover S/H. > ... > * Unknown board from "The Palantir Corporation" (c) 1988 - has a > Motorola 68020. 16-bit ISA. Maybe a co-processor board? I designed that card, and one and a half of the three ASICs (at LSI logic) that are on it. I'm surprised it says Plantir; I thought we were called Calera Recognition Systems by then. The card was for OCR; $2000 new. When the classiccmp archives are back online, you can search it and there is a long message or two where I describe how we configured these cards, even multiple cards in one system, without having any jumpers. It is child's play on PCI, but ISA bus had no mechanism to make it easy. I spent a lot more time debugging flaky boards than I spent designing it. It wasn't that the design was bad, but we made about 300 boards/month and there is always some fallout. At $2000/pop, it was worth my time (at $35K/yr) to the company to sit and debug them. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 6 17:37:08 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:37:08 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> John Floren wrote: > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Chris Kennedy wrote: >> Ian King wrote: >> >>> I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a >>> null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. >> Mine has always been to postulate a singly-linked list with each node >> containing a string value, then ask them to write something to print out >> the list in reverse order. There's a bunch of obvious ways to solve >> that problem; the nice thing about it is that depending on the answer >> that they give you can apply more constraints (copying isn't allowed, >> memory is constrained, optimize for speed, whatever) in order to better >> estimate their approach to solving problems. >> > > I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, > right Professor McCarthy? :) Recursion will eat up a lot of memory if the list is long. If memory is tight and nobody else is using the list, flip the pointer direction as you go down the list. When you hit the end, print it out, follow the pointers back to the beginning, flipping them back again. Or perhaps the singly linked list already stores the XOR of the forward and back pointers and so no flipping is necessary. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 6 17:44:23 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:44:23 -0500 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA12D3.23841.5758E383@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm inclined to think that Knuth intended that expressive facility > when he titlled his series "The Art of Programming", not "How to > Program". But I wouldn't presume to put words in his mouth. Actually Knuth has said as much. Going beyond that, there was something he said that has really stuck with me. He described computing as a field where one wears many different hats at different times. Sometimes, we wear the artist hat. Sometimes we wear the scientist hat. Sometimes we wear the engineer hat. And sometimes we have to switch among them at a moment's notice. When I read that, it hit me as a basic profound truth, just as it did when I read where Wilkes described the time when the realization hit him that a large fraction of the rest of his life would be spent finding bugs in his own programs. BLS From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 17:44:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:44:35 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > If memory is tight and nobody else is using the list, flip the pointer > direction as you go down the list. ?When you hit the end, print it out, > follow the pointers back to the beginning, flipping them back again. > > Or perhaps the singly linked list already stores the XOR of the forward and > back pointers and so no flipping is necessary. Or just fire the guy that made it a singly linked list in the first place. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 6 17:47:56 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20090406154409.S2566@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Ian King wrote: > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. My I used to make all of my first semester programming students in C and in 80x86 ASM write their own atoi() function. The ASM students also had to modify it for hex and octal. > When people say there's no such thing as a stupid question, I disagree: > "Will this be on the test?" My answer was ALWAYS "yes". If they ask about it, then it gets added to the test. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From andrew at smokebelch.org Mon Apr 6 17:47:56 2009 From: andrew at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:47:56 +0100 Subject: Surplus stores in San Francisco / Silicon Valley. Message-ID: <20090406224756.GA85118@plum.flirble.org> I'm over in San Francisco on a mixture of business and pleasure, and was wondering if there are any electronic surplus stores I should check out? They don't have to be chock-full of vintage computing bargains (if such places exist anywhere any more) -- even places with surplus components would be good... Cheers, Andrew From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 6 17:43:25 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:43:25 -0300 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com><20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net><0e9701c9b6f9$371d0350$fb4019bb@DeskJara> <20090406152552.X2566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0fbd01c9b70a$5e8cede0$fb4019bb@DeskJara> > He was able to print one column of labels, with a \n at the end of each > line, and then was stuck because he couldn't make the printer go back up > to the top of the page again! ??? Why not take three registers and print one line in three labels at once?!?! Am I being too dumb or was your friend too dumb? :oO From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 6 18:22:09 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <0fbd01c9b70a$5e8cede0$fb4019bb@DeskJara> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com><20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net><0e9701c9b6f9$371d0350$fb4019bb@DeskJara> <20090406152552.X2566@shell.lmi.net> <0fbd01c9b70a$5e8cede0$fb4019bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20090406160426.L2566@shell.lmi.net> > > He was able to print one column of labels, with a \n at the end of each > > line, and then was stuck because he couldn't make the printer go back up > > to the top of the page again! On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: > ??? > Why not take three registers and print one line in three labels at > once?!?! He wanted to while (NOT at end of page) { read name write name read address write address } GOTO top of page, second column while (NOT at end of page) { read name . . . } one of the simplest solutions is: while (NOT at end-of-file) { read name1 read address1 read name2 read address2 read name3 read address3 write name1, name2, name3 write address1, address2, address3 } > Am I being too dumb or was your friend too dumb? :oO Original instructions were: "here's some label stock, address a copy of this mailer to everybody in this file; they're already in Zipcode order". Environment was PC with MS-DOS and/or Linux, and a reasonable assortment of compilers and related tools. He was dumb enough that he couldn't figure it out in three days, even with some hints and suggestions, so I fired him. definitely not a friend anymore. I realize that that task was "data processing", but I would still expect a "computer scientist/programmer" to be able to work it out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 6 18:23:28 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:23:28 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles H Dickman > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 3:29 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > There are way too many "computer scientists" who haven't even read > Knuth. > > "They only assigned a few specific pages. > > > But aren't those books written with assembly as the language for the > examples? First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly > language. And second, it isn't even for a "real" machine. It is > something he cooked up. So you read the book and you didn't even learn > to program a real computer. Where are the marketable skills? > > -chuck > Marketable skills ==> engineering degree Theoretical study ==> science degree That was always the interesting dilemma hiring people for a software engineering company: few people ever studied software engineering. I actually found that many of my best hires were those who had used computers within the discipline of an experimental science or an engineering program. -- Ian From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 6 19:49:48 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:49:48 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I hope the answer is recursion. The answer should ALWAYS be recursion, > right Professor McCarthy? :) I can't tell you how many students think recursion is the answer to every question. (Then again, I do deal with a lot of students.) Or that using xor is a good way to swap integers. If I ask "How would you write a program to calculate the natural log of 147 factorial?" and the answer doesn't involve looking up an algorithm for the gamma function (or someone who actually remembers the functional form of the Stirling approximation) I shout "next!" Factorials should never be used as an example of recursion in intro programming courses. I think the correct answer to Chris's question is to ask whether the reverse access is a one time thing, or if it's a significant enough change to the software spec that the list should be doubly linked. ;) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 6 19:53:58 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:53:58 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:05 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Only if you have an arbitrary amount of memory available. What if >> you're constrained to a handful of automatics? > > What if all you got is a PDP8 with 4K... :) And the list is being input forward-order over a 1 way serial link without flow control, has an unknown number of items, and you need to print it in reverse order on a 3 cps printer. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 6 19:59:47 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:59:47 -0600 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49DAA583.5090401@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric J Korpela wrote: > And the list is being input forward-order over a 1 way serial link > without flow control, has an unknown number of items, and you need to > print it in reverse order on a 3 cps printer. > 3 CPS printer ???? A BUNCH OF CHIMPS POUNDING ON TYPEWRITERS IS FASTER! From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 6 20:16:25 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:16:25 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DAA583.5090401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA7BA3.5080606@mainecoon.com> <49DA7CBD.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> <49DAA583.5090401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 5:59 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: > >> And the list is being input forward-order over a 1 way serial link >> without flow control, has an unknown number of items, and you need to >> print it in reverse order on a 3 cps printer. >> > 3 CPS printer ???? > A BUNCH OF CHIMPS POUNDING ON TYPEWRITERS IS FASTER! > But the chimps are too busy scribbling down the numbers they see being displayed on the oscilliscope to pound on the typewriters. Do you think this company is made of chimps? Every day asking for more chimps... When we have to downsize you'll be sorry.... From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Apr 6 20:12:58 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:12:58 -0400 Subject: Text differences (Was: The VAX is running) In-Reply-To: References: <200904061700.n36H0nFk032974@dewey.classiccmp.org><20090406172025.5BB16384462E@cassini.thecoolbears.org> Message-ID: > VMS itself doesn't represent files internally (i.e., on the > filesystem) as streams of bytes with CR or LF or a combination at the > end of a line. An RMS text file is a series of variable length > records that are converted to things like null terminated strings, > etc., by, IIRC, a combination of RMS and the run-time-library for your > application's language (VAXCRTL.EXE, etc.) That's one of the RMS formats: sequential variable length records. RMS also has fixed length record files (card decks, sort of, with selectable card width). And it does support "stream" files, with your choice of CRLF, LF, or CR newline. Then it has more exotic stuff like indexed files (key/data pairs). All this was done much earlier in OS/360, perhaps first though I don't know that for a fact. The 360s were also odd ducks in that they had hardware support for variable length blocks and key/value files right in the disk drives. This complexity still exists, in "mainframe" storage area networking devices. paul From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Apr 6 20:55:06 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:55:06 -0400 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49DAB27A.4040900@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him to > write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. > In the code of your choice, understandable to the examiner, provide a solution to the polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. -chuck From feedle at feedle.net Mon Apr 6 20:57:34 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:57:34 -0700 Subject: Surplus stores in San Francisco / Silicon Valley. In-Reply-To: <20090406224756.GA85118@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090406224756.GA85118@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <776AA766-52C3-45E3-AB2D-282D4C9D603B@feedle.net> On Apr 6, 2009, at 3:47 PM, Andrew Back wrote: > I'm over in San Francisco on a mixture of business and pleasure, and > was > wondering if there are any electronic surplus stores I should check > out? Your first, last, and perhaps only stop should be Weird Stuff Warehouse. http://www.weirdstuff.com/sunnyvale/html/index.htm Do. Go. Prepare to spend some time there and bring a shipping container to ship stuff home. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 21:12:14 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:12:14 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I can't tell you how many students think recursion is the answer to > every question. ?(Then again, I do deal with a lot of students. Or how many engineering managers think recursion has no place in production code. Recursion is really neat and clever, and really gives the academics the jollies, but is often a big red flag for unreadable, hard-to-maintain code in the real world. -- Will From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 22:24:57 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:24:57 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/M power supply questions In-Reply-To: <1239051554.32178.21.camel@spasmo> References: <1239051554.32178.21.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <624966d60904062024j550cd65dibd4a7f1acf4a1055@mail.gmail.com> I think the regulator is a 54-09728 or 54-09827, and they were used ia lot of DEC items. Paul On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > Thanks Tony, > > Yes pretty sure its a bridge rectifier as I found H740 schematics plus > opened up my other 8-M which I now realise has essentially the same > power supply. I guess DEC just made slight design revisions plus > reposition the supply in order to solve the unreliability of these > earlier units. > > Studying the schematic further I've found NSS-3514 annotated next to the > rectifier (sorry missed this when I first looked through it) so I'll see > if I can hunt down this part. If not I'll try the diode approach > > Thanks, > Toby > > On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 21:00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > One is a DEC 1110714 bridge rectifier and the other is a MJ900 > > > transistor. I think I've sourced the MJ900 but can't find anywhere > > > stocking the 1110714. > > > > > > Does anyone know an alternative non-DEC part number for the rectifier? > > > > Are you sure it's a _bridge_ rectifier? I thought you said it was a TO3 > > can, DEC often used a double-diode in that case (common cathode to the > > case, anode to the 2 pins -- sort of a semiconductor version of an EZ80 > > :-)) as a biphase full-wave rectifier with a centre-tapped transformer > > winding. > > > > In any case it should be fairly easy to get some diodes with sufficient > > forward courrent capacity (and enough PIV -- rememebr this is _twice_ the > > peak voltag from the transformer!) to do the job and just wire them up > > appropritately. There should be enough spave in a PDP8/M PSU to fit them > > in. It may not look original, but it'll get the machine going and you can > > always fit the original part if you find one. > > > > -tony > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 6 22:47:52 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:47:52 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49DACCE8.4040205@mainecoon.com> Jim Battle wrote: > If memory is tight and nobody else is using the list, flip the pointer > direction as you go down the list. When you hit the end, print it out, > follow the pointers back to the beginning, flipping them back again. Yep. > Or perhaps the singly linked list already stores the XOR of the forward > and back pointers and so no flipping is necessary. Which hints at what Eric offered up: > I think the correct answer to Chris's question is to ask whether the > reverse access is a one time thing, or if it's a significant enough > change to the software spec that the list should be doubly linked. The amazing thing is that well north of 90% of candidates don't bother to ask questions that would help them identify the most appropriate solution to the problem. The typical approaches are to repeatedly iterate, to recurse or to use an explicit stack (which is materially the same thing). Questions like "can I modify the list?" or "Is there anything that precludes changing the spec to make this a doubly-linked list" are rarely posed -- and when they are, I know I've got a keeper. The most tortured solution offered to date was the one where the guy proposed to create a doubly-linked list that contained pointers to nodes of the original list... -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 23:15:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:15:52 -0400 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: <49DA1263.2020007@ubanproductions.com> References: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA1263.2020007@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >> I don't remember it being non-standard. > > The paper is 8.5" wide including the tractor holes, whereas normal > paper of that size is 8.5 plus the tractor holes so that once the > tractor edges are removed (they are usually perforated), the remaining > paper is 8.5 wide. That sounds like the paper required for a Commodore 1525 printer. -ethan From bear at typewritten.org Tue Apr 7 00:27:49 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:27:49 -0700 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: References: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA1263.2020007@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <98ADA076-0463-4790-A6EC-890019CB230D@typewritten.org> On Apr 6, 2009, at 9:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Tom Uban > wrote: > >> The paper is 8.5" wide including the tractor holes, whereas normal >> paper of that size is 8.5 plus the tractor holes so that once the >> tractor edges are removed (they are usually perforated), the >> remaining >> paper is 8.5 wide. > > That sounds like the paper required for a Commodore 1525 printer. Or for the ASR33 and ASR35. ok bear From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Apr 7 00:40:50 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:40:50 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet II available in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DAE762.20302@hawkmountain.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Rescued a complete Laserjet II from the garbage at my girlfriend's apartment >> complex, just couldn't let it die like that. >> >> It powers up and passes POST, and the fuser heats up OK, but it doesn't want >> to take paper from the tray. This seems like a common ailment and shouldn't >> be difficult to fix. I don't have any need for it (got a LJ 4M+ as my >> workhorse). If anyone wants it, come and get it. >> >> (Seattle area.) >> > > Back when these were relatively new, I worked in a computer store > fixing these printers among other things. I can't remember if this is > the exact ailment, but laserjet 2s and 3s have this little plastic > gear that likes to break teeth. As you open the printer, it's on the > right side of the fuser, I believe under a plastic cover there. It's > about 1/2" in diameter. There's a metal clip holding it in place. It > should be easy to cannibalize this from other laserjets if it's not > still available. I'm not sure if this is causing your paper pickup > problem, but you should definitely check this gear. Also, clean it > out and tighten the screws. Laserjet 2s and 3s like to unscrew > themselves during general use. The screws work themselves out and > fall into the mechanism. Maybe a little loctite is in order. If you > hold it upside-down and shake it over your head with the printer door > open, some screws will probably shake loose and fall out. > This sounds like the paper pickup roller. If you clean it well (preferably with a rubber roller rejunivator of some type)... it will probably work again, but it is best to replace this. I've done it a few times. The SX printers are nice to work on.... and parts are a plenty. I'm familiar with the bear Brian speaks of too... the 14 tooth gear on the fuser unit likes to 'eat itself'.... but it is available as a part (I think I last used The Printer Works for SX engine parts). -- Curt > brian > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 7 00:52:46 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: <49DAE762.20302@hawkmountain.net> References: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> <49DAE762.20302@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <49DAEA2E.4070005@atarimuseum.com> Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with 10mb Jet-Direct Card? Printer has been working perfectly since I originally got it back in 1996. I've replaced the toner on it 3 times in its lifetime and maintained it well all these years, plastics have turned dark beige from age, but printer has been a steadfast reliable beastie all these years. I needed a new toner cartridge for it, and I just can't justify buying a $130 cartridge for a printer that is worth about $20. I have a Color LJ 2600N which is next to it so I've decided its time to pass the printer on to someone else to put it to good use, so anyone who is in in or around Putnam, NY (10512) and would like to pick it up, its yours. Curt From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 08:29:51 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:29:51 -0400 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: <98ADA076-0463-4790-A6EC-890019CB230D@typewritten.org> References: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA1263.2020007@ubanproductions.com> <98ADA076-0463-4790-A6EC-890019CB230D@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:27 AM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Apr 6, 2009, at 9:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Tom Uban >> wrote: >> >>> The paper is 8.5" wide including the tractor holes, whereas normal >>> paper of that size is 8.5 plus the tractor holes so that once the >>> tractor edges are removed (they are usually perforated), the remaining >>> paper is 8.5 wide. >> >> That sounds like the paper required for a Commodore 1525 printer. > > Or for the ASR33 and ASR35. My ASR33 lacks tractor pins. Are there models that have them? -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 7 08:38:13 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:38:13 -0700 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: <49DAEA2E.4070005@atarimuseum.com> References: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> <49DAE762.20302@hawkmountain.net> <49DAEA2E.4070005@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Hi I have a 4si and I get my toner for about $20 on ebay. I've never payed list. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 > From: curt at atarimuseum.com > To: > Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY > > Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with 10mb Jet-Direct Card? > > > Printer has been working perfectly since I originally got it back in > 1996. I've replaced the toner on it 3 times in its lifetime and > maintained it well all these years, plastics have turned dark beige from > age, but printer has been a steadfast reliable beastie all these > years. I needed a new toner cartridge for it, and I just can't > justify buying a $130 cartridge for a printer that is worth about $20. > I have a Color LJ 2600N which is next to it so I've decided its time to > pass the printer on to someone else to put it to good use, so anyone who > is in in or around Putnam, NY (10512) and would like to pick it up, its > yours. > > > > Curt > > _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 7 08:53:40 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:53:40 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: References: <49D9B93B.2030705@mail.msu.edu> <6dbe3c380904060344r2753d413m49e2dde7dd48a8@mail.gmail.com> <49DAE762.20302@hawkmountain.net> <49DAEA2E.4070005@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <49DB5AE4.3050102@atarimuseum.com> Hi Dwight, Thanks, I just checked (and should've in the first place) and found a toner for $24 with free shipping, so I purchased, thanks. Curt dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I have a 4si and I get my toner for about > $20 on ebay. I've never payed list. > Dwight > > ---------------------------------------- > >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 >> From: curt at atarimuseum.com >> To: >> Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY >> >> Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with 10mb Jet-Direct Card? >> >> >> Printer has been working perfectly since I originally got it back in >> 1996. I've replaced the toner on it 3 times in its lifetime and >> maintained it well all these years, plastics have turned dark beige from >> age, but printer has been a steadfast reliable beastie all these >> years. I needed a new toner cartridge for it, and I just can't >> justify buying a $130 cartridge for a printer that is worth about $20. >> I have a Color LJ 2600N which is next to it so I've decided its time to >> pass the printer on to someone else to put it to good use, so anyone who >> is in in or around Putnam, NY (10512) and would like to pick it up, its >> yours. >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ > Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry > http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009 > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Apr 7 09:37:30 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 07:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: <49DB5AE4.3050102@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <741684.9040.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Glad to hear you're keeping your trusty LaserJet 4 - those are really great printers. And, on the plus side, they're really easy to get parts for! Every once in a while, I still get a call at work to go and repair one of these - there are still quite a few of them out there in service. Incidentally, let me know if you ever need new parts... -Ian --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum wrote: > From: Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum > Subject: Re: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 9:53 AM > Hi Dwight, > > Thanks, I just checked (and should've in the first > place) and found a > toner for $24 with free shipping, so I purchased, thanks. > > > > Curt > > dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > I have a 4si and I get my toner for about > > $20 on ebay. I've never payed list. > > Dwight > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 > >> From: curt at atarimuseum.com > >> To: > >> Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, > NY > >> > >> Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with > 10mb Jet-Direct Card? > >> > >> > >> Printer has been working perfectly since I > originally got it back in > >> 1996. I've replaced the toner on it 3 times in > its lifetime and > >> maintained it well all these years, plastics have > turned dark beige from > >> age, but printer has been a steadfast reliable > beastie all these > >> years. I needed a new toner cartridge for it, and > I just can't > >> justify buying a $130 cartridge for a printer that > is worth about $20. > >> I have a Color LJ 2600N which is next to it so > I've decided its time to > >> pass the printer on to someone else to put it to > good use, so anyone who > >> is in in or around Putnam, NY (10512) and would > like to pick it up, its > >> yours. > >> > >> > >> > >> Curt > >> > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or > BlackBerry > > > http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009 > > > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 7 10:34:25 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:34:25 +0200 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:37:08 -0500 Jim Battle wrote: > Recursion will eat up a lot of memory if the list is long. Not necessarily: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bear at typewritten.org Tue Apr 7 11:27:34 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:34 -0700 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: References: <49D9FA95.7070602@ubanproductions.com> <18906.3804.928903.41701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA1263.2020007@ubanproductions.com> <98ADA076-0463-4790-A6EC-890019CB230D@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:29 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> That sounds like the paper required for a Commodore 1525 printer. >> >> Or for the ASR33 and ASR35. > > My ASR33 lacks tractor pins. Are there models that have them? Sorry. My ASR35 has them and I made a guess about the ASR33, which I should not have done. Even though in my mind the models are similar, they really aren't. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 7 11:40:28 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:40:28 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:37:08 -0500 > Jim Battle wrote: > >> Recursion will eat up a lot of memory if the list is long. > Not necessarily: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion Jochen -- First, I'd argue that then you aren't doing recursion; you have transformed recursion into iteration. For the stated problem, using recursion requires creating a stack frame for each node in the list, chewing up a lot of memory. It could be transformed into an iterative operation by having an auxiliary list to save the address of each node as you traverse the list, but that is eating up memory too (though likely much less than a stack frame per node). My proposed solution for low memory situations is iterative, but requires only a small, fixed amount of working space. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ This is only tangentially related, but it is connected by the need to use a small, fixed amount of scratch space to operate on large lists of data. Once upon a time, I disassembled a lot of the TRS-80 model III ROM. Part of that was the garbage collection routine. Because strings were dynamically allocated without any explicit recovery mechanism, the interpreter would on occasion have to sweep dead strings from memory. This gave the appearance of locking up the computer for long stretches -- the amount of time varied based on the amount of free memory and the number of active strings. It could easily take more than half a minute. The code was written to use the tiniest amount of scratch space. The garbage collector was something like this. One pointer was used to sweep through the variable table, looking for all strings, and after it swept the variable table, it would also sweep through the the currently active expression stack to find live strings there too. It would find the string with the lowest address and move the string at that location to the start of free string memory if it wasn't already located there, and patch up the variable table or expression stack to point to the new location. Then a second round was done, again looking for the lowest string address it could find which was also greater than the address just found in the previous iteration. On and on it would go until no new string was found. This is a classic O(n^2) algorithm, which is why the thing ran so slowly. I seem to recall it required only four bytes of storage other than using the CPU registers to do this sweep. If instead of waiting to do garbage collection until there was only four bytes left it invoked the garbage collector when, say, 64 bytes were left, they could have swept 16 live strings per pass. It would still be O(n^2), but it would have finished roughly 16 times faster. I'm pretty sure other MS BASICs used the same simple & slow garbage collector. I wonder how hard it would have been to put in an incremental garbage collector that ran during input prompts, and perhaps even while waiting for disk I/O. It wouldn't have helped the worst case, but it would have helped in the average case. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 13:01:56 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:01:56 +0100 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2009 17:40, Jim Battle wrote: > Once upon a time, I disassembled a lot of the TRS-80 model III ROM. Part > of that was the garbage collection routine. Because strings were > dynamically allocated without any explicit recovery mechanism, the > interpreter would on occasion have to sweep dead strings from memory. > This gave the appearance of locking up the computer for long stretches > -- the amount of time varied based on the amount of free memory and the > number of active strings. It could easily take more than half a minute. Garbage collection isn't as trivial as one might think. There's a trade-off between space and time, and there's a well-known story about a student of David Moon's at MIT(?), and Marvin Minsky (who wrote a pretty well-known GC at SAIL). Search Google for "Minsky garbage" and look up http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/dae/notes/ai-koans -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 7 13:32:50 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:32:50 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 07/04/2009 17:40, Jim Battle wrote: > > Garbage collection isn't as trivial as one might think. ?There's a trade-off > between space and time, Always. The major problem with the MS-BASIC garbage collection was with the user experience. Gates chose rapid allocation through a top-of-heap pointer rather using a heap walker. While there was enough space for allocations, allocations were fast, but reallocation was impossible except at the top of the heap. Once garbage collection starts it must proceed to completion. The user experience, with sufficiently large memory, was of the computer hanging. Most users would power cycle rather than wait. The heap walker method slows allocations, but space can be reused without garbage collection, and once garbage collection is required, it can be short circuited once a sufficiently large free region is available for the current allocation. I can see why you'd want the Gates method on a 2k machine with 300 bytes available for program and data, but once BASIC started using 8K of address space for its own code on a machine with 32K+ of RAM, they could have found room for a better allocator and garbage collector. Eric From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Apr 7 13:40:47 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:40:47 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > From: Pete Turnbull > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:02 AM > Garbage collection isn't as trivial as one might think. There's a > trade-off between space and time, and there's a well-known story about > a student of David Moon's at MIT(?), and Marvin Minsky (who wrote a > pretty well-known GC at SAIL). Search Google for "Minsky garbage" and > look up http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/dae/notes/ai-koans Marvin Minsky was never at SAIL (in the academic sense--he probably did visit at one time or another). His career was all at MIT; he is a contemporary of Noam Chomsky, the well-known linguist. Also, I think you are confusing the koan about Moon and the student who discovers reference-counting garbage collection, and the koan about Minsky's response to Sussman's random wiring of a neural net. Note that Sussman and Moon are contemporaries, along with Steele of Common Lisp fame. Garbage collection is in point of fact so nontrivial that many papers on the topic were published in CACM, JACM, and other ACM and IEEE pubs in the 60s, 70s and into the 80s. I read most of them when I was into LISP implementation. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 7 13:56:44 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:56:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <411903.40812.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> AMOS Basic (for the Amiga) keeps all temporary text in one area, between LoChaine and HiChaine. When I was learning 68K ASM last year (July - Sept) I wrote a few commands for AMOS which crashed it - I was setting the HiChaine internal AMOS variable incorrectly (needed to be even!). To help with bugfixing my commands I wrote a "Set Hichaine ADDRESS" command (you could use it in Direct Mode where commands are run instantly, kind of like a CLI). The upside of this is that you can ditch all the text garbage instantly - a welcome bonus since AMOS' garbage collection is awful! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Pete Turnbull wrote: From: Pete Turnbull Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 7:01 PM On 07/04/2009 17:40, Jim Battle wrote: > Once upon a time, I disassembled a lot of the TRS-80 model III ROM. Part of that was the garbage collection routine. Because strings were dynamically allocated without any explicit recovery mechanism, the interpreter would on occasion have to sweep dead strings from memory. This gave the appearance of locking up the computer for long stretches -- the amount of time varied based on the amount of free memory and the number of active strings. It could easily take more than half a minute. Garbage collection isn't as trivial as one might think. There's a trade-off between space and time, and there's a well-known story about a student of David Moon's at MIT(?), and Marvin Minsky (who wrote a pretty well-known GC at SAIL). Search Google for "Minsky garbage" and look up http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/dae/notes/ai-koans -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 7 14:32:26 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:32:26 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49DBAA4A.9000007@pacbell.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: ... > Garbage collection isn't as trivial as one might think. I'm not sure if I'm the "one" you are addressing. :-) I am aware that there are many theses written on the subject. The "best" allocation and garbage collection algorithm to use is very domain specific. In the restricted case of MS BASIC, GC isn't very difficult. The root of all live strings are known, unlike, say C, where you can't tell which things are pointers, or even if you know it is a pointer, you don't know if the pointer is valid. In MS BASIC, all strings are rooted in one of two places: a simple variable table, or the string evaluation stack, as I described before. No heuristics are required, just a simple linear sweep. New strings are simply allocated from the single, unfragmented chunk of memory at the end of the string pool. (I don't recall if the end is in lower or higher address of that range though). There is no attempt to have an intelligent allocator or to coalesce dead fragments (as they aren't known to be dead until GC time). > There's a > trade-off between space and time, ... and complexity like in the simple example I gave. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 14:44:06 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:44:06 +0100 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DBAA4A.9000007@pacbell.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> <49DBAA4A.9000007@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49DBAD06.8080808@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2009 20:32, Jim Battle wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > ... >> Garbage collection isn't as trivial as one might think. > > I'm not sure if I'm the "one" you are addressing. :-) No, I know you understand it! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 7 14:42:34 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:42:34 +0100 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> <49DA8414.8000000@pacbell.net> <20090407173425.7df0480b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49DB81FC.6060200@pacbell.net> <49DB9514.60608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49DBACAA.9080301@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2009 19:40, Rich Alderson wrote: > Marvin Minsky was never at SAIL (in the academic sense--he probably did > visit at one time or another). His career was all at MIT; Yup, I'm not sure why I typed that! Probably thinking of another paper by someone else. > Also, I think you are confusing the koan about Moon and the student who > discovers reference-counting garbage collection, and the koan about > Minsky's response to Sussman's random wiring of a neural net. No, I'm not confusing them. Minsky wrote the GC I was thinking of, and some papers about it, but the koan is indeed related in connection with Moon. > Garbage collection is in point of fact so nontrivial that many papers on > the topic were published in CACM, JACM, and other ACM and IEEE pubs in > the 60s, 70s and into the 80s. I read most of them when I was into LISP implementation. I read a few. The further into it you get, the harder it seems, sometimes! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 7 14:53:15 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: from Eric J Korpela at "Apr 7, 9 11:32:50 am" Message-ID: <200904071953.n37JrFOE014772@floodgap.com> > Always. The major problem with the MS-BASIC garbage collection was > with the user experience. Gates chose rapid allocation through a > top-of-heap pointer rather using a heap walker. While there was > enough space for allocations, allocations were fast, but reallocation > was impossible except at the top of the heap. Once garbage collection > starts it must proceed to completion. The user experience, with > sufficiently large memory, was of the computer hanging. Most users > would power cycle rather than wait. But this wasn't true of all Microsoft BASIC derivatives. Notably the Commodore 128 had a tremendously optimized garbage collector, allowing collection within seconds even at 1MHz, and even being the slowest of the Commodore 8-bit BASICs. It was night and day compared to the C64. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 14:54:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:54:35 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090406152552.X2566@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <0e9701c9b6f9$371d0350$fb4019bb@DeskJara> <20090406152552.X2566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up mailing labels >> > because the printer didn't have a reverse line-feed! > > On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> ? ? REVERSE LINE FEED? Never heard of that. What is a 3-up mailing label? >> That perforated roll of three mailing labels per line? I can do that in >> BASIC with just one of the hands. > > Yep. > He was able to print one column of labels, with a \n at the end of each > line, and then was stuck because he couldn't make the printer go back up > to the top of the page again! I think I wrote something like that in C for VMS about 20 years ago (without the backing up ;-). When I most recently did it (last year), it was much easier - I wrote a Perl script to emit Postscript, rendered each label in order and let the Postscript rendering engine worry about the details. But yes... one should be able to write it when it has to be one physical line at a time, no backsies. -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Apr 7 15:15:45 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:15:45 +0100 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:28 -0400, Charles H Dickman wrote: > examples? First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly > language. I get stuff done with assembly language every day. I had much the same comment from someone at a BCS meeting once, who was ranting about assembly being irrelevant and everything should be written in Java. He got quite upset when I asked him how he planned to squeeze a JVM into 1024 words of ROM, along with the application. Gordon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 15:09:25 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:09:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repair: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure In-Reply-To: <000901c9b6fd$21f62390$0201a8c0@hal9000> from "Scanning" at Apr 6, 9 02:17:46 pm Message-ID: > > I think Tony will agree with me, if not I'll hear about it. If you want to > save the board and don't care about the ( dead ) DIP ICs you are removing, You'll get no arguements from me there!. > cut all the legs off of the DIPs and remove them one-by-one with minimal > heat and long-nosed pliers. Also don't use solder wick but rather poke a > round wooden toothpick in the hole to clean it out. This will cause the Applying a soldering iron to one side to melt the solder and suching it out with a solder sucker from the other side is also relatively 'kind' to the PCB. > least amount of damage to the board and I haven't lost a via yet with this > method. Good luck. I susepct, alas, that some older HP boards may be damaged even my this method. They really are fragile now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 15:14:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> from "Charles H Dickman" at Apr 6, 9 06:28:49 pm Message-ID: > But aren't those books written with assembly as the language for the > examples? First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly > language. And second, it isn't even for a "real" machine. It is > something he cooked up. So you read the book and you didn't even learn > to program a real computer. Where are the marketable skills? Many a true word is, alas, spoken in jest. Amd your paragraph is one of the msot worrying things about the state of education and employment today :-( FWIW, I am not a CS or a CE. But I have read (most of) 'The Art of Computer Programming'. I am not saying I remember much of it, but I bet it would come back to me if I read it again. But then I like to read all sort of technical books for fun. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 14:49:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:49:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 6, 9 01:40:28 pm Message-ID: > I fired one who was unable to write a program to print 3-up mailing labels > because the printer didn't have a reverse line-feed! I suspect it would have been even more 'fun' if it had. Sticky labels tend to come unstuck from the backing paper if fed back and forth over the platten, the reuslt generally requiring the diassembly of bits of the printer. > > > There are way too many "computer scientists" who haven't even read Knuth. > "They only assigned a few specific pages" Anyone who only reads what they're assigned is not somebody I want to work with or employ. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 14:52:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:52:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8/M power supply questions In-Reply-To: <1239051554.32178.21.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Apr 6, 9 09:59:14 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks Tony, > > Yes pretty sure its a bridge rectifier as I found H740 schematics plus OK... Bridge rectifiers are not exactly critical components. Provided they'll pass enough current amd stand sufficient inverse voltage, they'll work. It shouldn't be hard to estimate those (for the latter, 3 times the transformer voltage (or strictly 2 * sqrt(2) * transformer voltage) will do. There will be something avaialbel that will work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 14:56:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:56:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9825 16K 09825-66523 memoryboard failure NOT ANY MORE ! In-Reply-To: <3B1F0161729C4509A14B64D7EF3E87F9@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 6, 9 11:07:32 pm Message-ID: > > To keep you posted : > > I made a error by stating the -12V was wrong, it was the +12V that's why I > replaced the uA723. (mea culpa etc....) OK, that makes a lot more sense. > The TMS4060's don't have a -12V connection they get +5,+12,0,-5V. Indeed. And that's why I was pussled. From what I rememebrm the memory _board_ takes in -12V from the PSU (it comes from a 3-terminal regulator there) and brings it down to -5V for the DRAMs using a zener and resistor. > The board is working again, the VCC pin of lowerbit 9 had a resistance of > 12.5 ohm to the VCC-line. Bad trace? > The A10 pin of the same chip didn't connect to anything. Ditto? > A little bypassing did the job, so thanks for your advice. Yes, I've seen it all too often on old HP boards. The through-hole plating isn't that good. My HP9830 had a couple of bad connections on one of the RAM boards (which is the main reason why the machine didn't work when I got it). Adding acouple of jumpers fixed that. And I've seen it in other machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 15:28:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:28:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 7, 9 09:29:51 am Message-ID: > My ASR33 lacks tractor pins. Are there models that have them? So do both of mine, but according to the parts book, there's a different platten mechanism with sprockets, and with, IIRC, a formfeed mechanism. I've never seen it 'in the flesh', though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 15:07:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:07:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard voltage In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 6, 9 11:16:04 pm Message-ID: > > According to the museum site (www.hpmuseum.net) the electronics of the HP125 > and HP120 are mostly the same. Well, the physical layout is different -- the HP125 ahs one large PCB with all the digital stuff on it, the HP120 has a pair of PCBs, one with most of the terminal circuitry on it, the other with all the user processor stuff, the serial ports and the interprocessor communication latches, etc. But, yes, AFAIK the circuity is very much the same. The firmware ROMs are the same (at least between a version C HP125 (uses 64K DRAMs like an HP120) and an HP120). The only major component to be different is the keyboard interface microcontroller. And that's mainly because hte keyboard interface is different. The HP125 has the DA15 keyboard connecotr, the keyswitch scan is generated by, AFAIK, that microcontroller. The HP120 has the 6 pin RJ11 socket, carrying clock and reset lines fro a counter in the keyboard to scan the keys, these signals coming from the microcontroller. > It seems the housing and screen size are the biggest difference between > these machines. I think the PSU and video monitor PCBs are different, but the latter at least might be similar in design. Of course the HP125 can take an internal thermal printer, the HP120 is not documented as being able to do so. But the interface (for an HP2674) seems to be there, at the same I/O addresses as the interface on an HP125. And since the terminal firmware is the same, it should work. Sometime I'll try the cabling from an HP150 and see what hapopens (yes, I'll check it carefully first...) > I didn't checked my HP125 out just tested and fixed (bad video ram 4116) it > when I got it, and ran some progs CP/M on it. > I like the looks of it, not the internal design solutions. YEs, the 'ET head' styling of the HP125 is rather unusual... The HP120 looks very like an HP9816 (or an HP15 (without the space for the printer) > Playing with a 200 or 300 series is more fun. I don;t like the 9000/300 too much, they've got too much custom silicon in them (or at least the ones I've seen inside do). But I do like the HP9000/200 machines. Very clean designs... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Apr 7 15:41:47 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:41:47 +0100 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8499B877FC684B08A861B4DF48F61CBC@AntonioPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > If I ask "How would you write a program to calculate the > natural log of 147 factorial?" and the answer doesn't involve > looking up an algorithm for the gamma function (or someone > who actually remembers the functional form of the Stirling > approximation) I shout "next!" Factorials should never be > used as an example of recursion in intro programming courses. Couldn't the answer be "loop from 2 to N=147, sum += ln(N)"? Or do I need another coffee? Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 7 15:42:24 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:42:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> Message-ID: <928166.18963.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I agree, assembly language can be great if it is used properly. In my experience, PC software nowadays is written and embedded into Excel. That's great in that you don't have to worry about the headaches of Windows itself, but you can't access the raw power of the hardware directly as it's going through Excel, then Windows before it finally reaches the hardware and by that time you would have wasted a fair bit of computing power. The software I come across at work that hasn't been embedded in Excel is often buggy (even with something as simple as inserting a blank line into a data table!). Now I'm not in a position of power (sadly), but if that were my company I would be very angry that such simple bugs didn't get picked up in the testing (unless we did no testing to save money!). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 7 April, 2009, 9:15 PM On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:28 -0400, Charles H Dickman wrote: > examples? First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly > language. I get stuff done with assembly language every day. I had much the same comment from someone at a BCS meeting once, who was ranting about assembly being irrelevant and everything should be written in Java. He got quite upset when I asked him how he planned to squeeze a JVM into 1024 words of ROM, along with the application. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 7 15:49:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:49:24 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <20090406152552.X2566@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <49DB59E4.15290.5C56B036@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2009 at 15:54, Ethan Dicks wrote: > But yes... one should be able to write it when it has to be one > physical line at a time, no backsies. Sometimes, it can be fun to see how bad a solution can be made. How about maintaining a list of where each letter occurs in a page, then sorting according to letter and position, print all of the letter "A" on the page, skip back to the start and print all of the letter "B"....etc.? Anyone remember the story "Angels on a Pin" about measuring the height of a building using a barometer? It's apparently still alive: http://www.esmerel.com/circle/question/building.html --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 15:49:42 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:49:42 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> Message-ID: Someone on the list (whose attribution wasn't passed on) >> But aren't those books written with assembly as the language for the >> examples? So. >> First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly >> language. Hmm... as one who has written plenty of embedded application code and firmware (boot ROMs) and quite a bit of user application code for 8-bit, 16-bit, and 32-bit processors for money (and 12-bit processors for fun), all I can say is you must be new. The short answer is one instruction at a time like a composer writes symphonies one note at a time. The overall effect is stunning, even if a single note/single instruction doesn't do much. >> And second, it isn't even for a "real" machine. It is >> something he cooked up. So you read the book and you didn't even learn >> to program a real computer. Where are the marketable skills? Perhaps in building the skills to take a real-world problem apart into solvable components and abstract the steps necessary to produce a solution? It's something I see novice programmers struggle with. This comment reminds me of an idea put forth in Rick Cook's "Wizardry" series about a Cupertino programmer summoned to a land of magic and dragons. He, in essence, creates a language and compiler for magic spells. At one point, he describes the difference between himself (as a programmer and a person from a technological world) and the wizards of his new home from the standpoint of how their styles of "magic" are different. The traditional wizards study for years and years to learn a spell _exactly_ because they don't understand every nuance that contributes to the spell working. They see "this tree" or "this blade of grass" and seek to understand just that one instance. They can't generalize into class: tree and instance: this tree. One can learn "a language" or "a computer", but when that language or that vendor or that architecture fades from prominence, it's a lot harder for that person to keep current than learning how "languages" or "computers" work with each different one being an instance of a class. I myself know plenty of compiled languages and plenty of scripted and/or interpreted languages. I don't really worry about learning one more or twenty more. I "grok" the underlying concepts. The specifics are merely window dressing. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 7 15:55:07 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:55:07 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running > > On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:28 -0400, Charles H Dickman wrote: > > > examples? First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly > > language. > > I get stuff done with assembly language every day. I had much the same > comment from someone at a BCS meeting once, who was ranting about > assembly being irrelevant and everything should be written in Java. > > He got quite upset when I asked him how he planned to squeeze a JVM > into > 1024 words of ROM, along with the application. > > My first programming job was writing 6800 assembly code for a video information product. Yes, that's 6800, not 68000. One of my favorite memories was an incident that demonstrated the fragility of this new technology: we learned that in certain mask sets of the processor, one could not set interrupts (as I recall - this is a lot of years ago) without first issuing a NOP instruction, evidently to normalize the processor state. Also, the development system had a system of linear assignment of blocks on its 8" floppies. If you forgot to delete an unneeded file right away, eventually someone had to take the time for the monitor to physically move all of the newer blocks to fill in where the old file had been. (Floppies weren't cheap, so we couldn't afford to waste room on them.) Moreover, the assembler did not spool its listings. If you were doing a major revision to the core of the system, it took over an hour to assemble because the print job controlled the pace of assembly! Those were the days.... I think it's a shame that too few kids are learning assembler or C anymore. Working in Java isolates them from the 'vagaries' of real hardware so they can focus on algorithms and data structures, but ultimately they will have to work on... real hardware! But it goes back to the comment I made about computer science vs. software engineering. CS most often doesn't want to know about real hardware. That's not a flaw, that's an expression of scope. After all, some of the core theories of computing were developed before real hardware existed. One might say we had to build the hardware to test the theories. -- Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 16:19:24 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:19:24 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <928166.18963.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <928166.18963.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DBC35C.5090904@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > I agree, assembly language can be great if it is used properly. In my > experience, PC software nowadays is written and embedded into Excel. > That's great in that you don't have to worry about the headaches of > Windows itself, but you can't access the raw power of the hardware > directly as it's going through Excel, then Windows before it finally > reaches the hardware and by that time you would have wasted a fair > bit of computing power. > > The software I come across at work that hasn't been embedded in Excel > is often buggy (even with something as simple as inserting a blank > line into a data table!). Now I'm not in a position of power (sadly), > but if that were my company I would be very angry that such simple > bugs didn't get picked up in the testing (unless we did no testing to > save money!). You need to find another place to work. *Almost none* of the PC software written here runs in a situation *anything* like that. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 7 16:37:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:37:48 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric>, Message-ID: <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2009 at 13:55, Ian King wrote: > I think it's a shame that too few kids are learning assembler or C > anymore. Working in Java isolates them from the 'vagaries' of real > hardware so they can focus on algorithms and data structures, but > ultimately they will have to work on... real hardware! But it goes > back to the comment I made about computer science vs. software > engineering. CS most often doesn't want to know about real hardware. > That's not a flaw, that's an expression of scope. And too few people who take the trouble to learn the assembly bother to learn the machine representation of the instructions--or the architecture of the implementation. Even fewer learn how to time instruction execution--perhaps it's no longer relevant. Recently I had a conversation with another programmer who was surprised to find that the mapping of x86 assembly to machine language is not one-to-one; i.e. for a given assembly instruction, there is often more than one way to express it in machine code. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 16:43:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:43:39 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > And too few people who take the trouble to learn the assembly bother > to learn the machine representation of the instructions--or the > architecture of the implementation. Even fewer learn how to time > instruction execution--perhaps it's no longer relevant. All of this is now the job of the compiler. It ain't 1980 anymore. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 7 16:52:50 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:52:50 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running > > > And too few people who take the trouble to learn the assembly bother > > to learn the machine representation of the instructions--or the > > architecture of the implementation. Even fewer learn how to time > > instruction execution--perhaps it's no longer relevant. > > All of this is now the job of the compiler. > > It ain't 1980 anymore. > You've never found a compiler bug? :-) Besides, my colleague who's writing the Massbus disk emulator doesn't get to use a compiler. He's done line-by-line assembly code, squeezing out every unnecessary byte and machine cycle. Don't tell HIM this sort of knowledge is no longer relevant. -- Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 17:07:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:07:05 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <49DBCE89.4010103@gmail.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > Mine has always been to postulate a singly-linked list with each node > containing a string value, then ask them to write something to print out > the list in reverse order. 1) Print list out in conventional order. 2) Instruct user to turn their terminal upside-down. # 2 can be substituted with "instruct user to stand on their head" in the event of heavy terminals. (well all the sane answers were taken! :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 17:12:35 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:12:35 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49DBCFD3.2000708@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. Do you mean that the octal digits are packed one per 3 bits, or that each item in the string matches to one of the chars '0'..'7'? (I think I've seen the latter problem somewhere else - can't recall if it was an interview or some form of test, though, or even what language was expected to be used) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 7 17:21:54 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:21:54 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <8499B877FC684B08A861B4DF48F61CBC@AntonioPC> References: <8499B877FC684B08A861B4DF48F61CBC@AntonioPC> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> If I ask "How would you write a program to calculate the >> natural log of 147 factorial?" and the answer doesn't involve >> looking up an algorithm for the gamma function (or someone >> who actually remembers the functional form of the Stirling >> approximation) I shout "next!" Factorials should never be >> used as an example of recursion in intro programming courses. > > Couldn't the answer be "loop from 2 to N=147, sum += ln(N)"? > Or do I need another coffee? It could be, if you only need to do it once. That's 146 calls to log(). It's also O(N) IIRC, the usual (double precision) algorithm is an O(0) using 17 FLOP (of which 6 are division)+2 calls to log(). The five of the divisions are division by integers for factorials, so you might be able to replace them with a reciprocal table for small integers. Unless, of course you want the full gamma function, which is defined for all positive real numbers and all negative numbers that aren't integers. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 17:18:04 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:18:04 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49DBD11C.8020504@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I get stuff done with assembly language every day. I had much the same > comment from someone at a BCS meeting once, who was ranting about > assembly being irrelevant and everything should be written in Java. > > He got quite upset when I asked him how he planned to squeeze a JVM into > 1024 words of ROM, along with the application. Hmm can you squeeze enough of a TCP/IP stack into 1024 bytes to install a loader and just download the JVM from the Internet when needed? ;) From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 7 17:25:11 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:25:11 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DBCFD3.2000708@gmail.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <49DBCFD3.2000708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200904071825.11363.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ian King wrote: > > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. > > Do you mean that the octal digits are packed one per 3 bits, or that > each item in the string matches to one of the chars '0'..'7'? I think that he meant a string with ASCII characters (presumably 0-7). A better answer is "can I use strtol()?" I'd rather hire someone who is willing to reuse existing code instead of insisting on rewriting everything him/herself. I've had to deal with things created by the latter at work. :( Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 7 17:25:18 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:25:18 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > > You've never found a compiler bug? :-) > On the this list you might have a hard time finding people who haven't written a compiler bug. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 17:31:42 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:31:42 -0500 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090406165739.07f62a30@mail.threedee.com> References: <200904051701.n35H0h1A024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14BE8634-4B5F-4760-B2DA-F5405DBD711B@microspot.co.uk> <49D9DABB.6767.567DE224@cclist.sydex.com> <18906.16495.476576.43112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20090406165739.07f62a30@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <49DBD44E.5040001@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > At 12:48 PM 4/6/2009, Paul Koning wrote: >> Some of this stuff still makes sense. You still need external sort to >> sort really large data files, and algorithms that access the external >> files sequentially are still winners even with disk files. > > As routine files are measured in gigabytes or larger, hard drives > seem more like tape drives. It takes a while to move things. Hmm, something along the lines of: "the computer will always be just about fast enough for the task at hand"? From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Apr 7 17:44:30 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:44:30 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <49DBD74E.1070503@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Someone on the list (whose attribution wasn't passed on) >>> But aren't those books written with assembly as the language for the >>> examples? >>> First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly >>> language. > -ethan It was me Ethan. What is the emoticon for sarcasm? :-) -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 7 17:56:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:56:07 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2009 at 17:43, William Donzelli wrote: > All of this is now the job of the compiler. > > It ain't 1980 anymore. I understand. There's no longer any need for an in-depth understanding of the functioning of one's tools. Write garbage and leave it to the compiler (both to be correct and to do the best job of optimization). If it's too slow or too big, tell the customer to buy more memory or a faster system, or both. Compilers always generate correct highly-optimized code and chips always execute code the way it's documented in the manual. Nothing to see here, move along please. How sad. If I were just starting out today, I doubt that comptuers would have sufficient appeal as a career choice. Investment banking-- now there's the ticket... Probably involves the same thought process that goes into modern software development. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 18:23:08 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:23:08 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I understand. ?There's no longer any need for an in-depth > understanding of the functioning of one's tools. ? ?Write garbage and > leave it to the compiler (both to be correct and to do the best job > of optimization). I do not think a human could do reasonable optimization for today's processors - even by some assembler guru. Even back with STRETCH, we started to see the future is in the compiler. -- Will From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 7 18:42:06 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:42:06 -0300 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running References: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <052e01c9b7da$e4069540$015419bb@DeskJara> > The short answer is one instruction at a time like a composer writes > symphonies one note at a time. The overall effect is stunning, even > if a single note/single instruction doesn't do much. I'll save this message to show my future stepsons and stepdaughters :o) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Apr 7 19:24:27 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:24:27 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... Message-ID: <49DBEEBB.3080406@mail.msu.edu> So I'm now the proud father of a DEC PDP 11/40, which should be a fun project/adventure to get running again. I have been testing out the power supply and everything looked good this morning, at which point I figured I'd populate the CPU backplane and see what would happen. The answer is: not much -- occasionally a few LEDs would light up, but the machine was completely unresponsive. I went a bit further and tested the voltages at the backplane, and while checking the +15V, my probe slipped momentarily, bumping a nearby wirewrap pin, causing a small spark. Now, where I once had +15V, I have 0V. And since the -15V regulator is powered (in part) from the +15V line, that's dead too. I was hoping, after reading through the documents again, that it would be something as simple as fuse F1 on the power control board, but no such luck. The fuse is still good. Any suggestions for what's most likely to have blown when I screwed up here? Any recommendations for working on this supply? I'm really looking forward to pulling this thing out of the rack to work on it -- this thing looks heavy :) Thanks, Josh (still slapping himself for screwing this up...) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 7 19:24:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:24:36 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49DB8C54.19106.5D1BC92E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2009 at 19:23, William Donzelli wrote: > I do not think a human could do reasonable optimization for today's > processors - even by some assembler guru. Even back with STRETCH, we > started to see the future is in the compiler. You're right, of course. I've made my living at various times in my life doing compiler work, but the greatest degree of satisfaction always has been with compiler "back end" work. That's probably an occupation in as much commercial demand as a mule driver nowadays. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 19:46:51 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:46:51 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DB8C54.19106.5D1BC92E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com> <49DB8C54.19106.5D1BC92E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That's probably an occupation in as much commercial demand as a mule > driver nowadays. Ironically, tomorrow I am seeing a friend that is an ox driver. Seriously. -- Will From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Apr 7 19:56:29 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:56:29 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com><1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric><49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running > > > And too few people who take the trouble to learn the assembly bother > > to learn the machine representation of the instructions--or the > > architecture of the implementation. Even fewer learn how to time > > instruction execution--perhaps it's no longer relevant. > > All of this is now the job of the compiler. > > It ain't 1980 anymore. True. But it remains the case that there are tasks that push the limits of what the available processors can do. Or there may be special considerations that you simply can't tell the compiler -- either it doesn't know, or you can't say it in C. I continue to do assembly language programming, occasionally. It's a small fraction of the total code but it has to be done that way for one reason or another; the compiler just isn't an option. For example, I have some cache flush code that runs about 10x the speed of C code. And it works correctly, which the C code can't because the hardware has some very odd requirements that no compiler ever written can cope with. paul From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 7 20:34:23 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:34:23 -0600 Subject: GSA: Concurrent Computer setup (Houston, TX) Message-ID: Item 71QSCI09223115 (search for this on their site) Looks like a honkin' big pile of NASA gear. Anyone near Houston on the list? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Apr 7 20:44:49 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:44:49 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tek 1240/1241 ground leads... Message-ID: <49DC0191.2010301@mail.msu.edu> I picked up a nice Tektronix 1241 logic probe to help me debug my old computers, and I have everything I need (4 6460 pods, 1 6462, a few flying lead sets, some grabbers, etc...) except ground leads (Tek PN 344-0267-00). Anyone out there have any to spare? Any suggestions for good places to find accessories for old logic analyzers like this (my Google searches keep turning up sites that want $400 for a probe and don't even have anything in stock...) Thanks, Josh From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 7 20:50:05 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:50:05 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I understand. There's no longer any need for an in-depth >> understanding of the functioning of one's tools. Write garbage and >> leave it to the compiler (both to be correct and to do the best job >> of optimization). > > I do not think a human could do reasonable optimization for today's > processors - even by some assembler guru. Even back with STRETCH, we > started to see the future is in the compiler. One problem is the variability among processors that even share the same instruction set. I'm writing a fairly simple bit of code that I need to be as fast as possible on a wide variety of machines. One part is to multiply two large floating point vectors together as quickly as possible. I haven't started processor specific optimization yet, but already I've got 12 methods for doing the multiply. Thank the deity of your choice for metaprogramming. On the machine I'm sitting at right now, the best choice is vpf_multiply at 3.4 ns per op (on arrays much larger than the cache). On the next nearest machine it's v_multiply: 5.5 ns per op. (Different clock speeds, of course, so not directly comparable. Machine #2 does more flops per cycle.) Differences between various methods on the same machine is 20%, so when you run time is months, it makes a difference. Just in case you're wondering what could make multiplying two arrays be so different, here's one of the routines. template static void vpf_multiply(const T *v1, const T *v2, T *v3, IDL_LONG n) { IDL_LONG rem=n%size,i=0; T *ve=v3+n-rem; while (v3(v1)+prefetch); pf=*(reinterpret_cast(v2)+prefetch); for (i=0;i(v1,v2,v3,rem); } Yes, your eyes are not betraying you, that's an attempt at prefetching the input arrays written in standard C++ followed by what is probably an unrolled loop. And yes, you need to allocate at least prefetch bytes at the end of your array. (v_multiply is just a loop unrolled to 4 ops per iteration without the prefetch). And in case you were wondering, the code is multithreaded at the level above this one. Of course, once I start delving into assembly language and SIMD optimizations, there will be a prefetch instruction, and instructions to multiply four floats at once so there is probably a speed up there. The compiler doesn't find these on its own, unless you get very specific about which processor you use. (And on some processors the vector instructions are no better than the scalars) So the options are compile separately on every machine, or put in the effort on optimizing specific parts of a generically optimized compile. So whereas in 1986 I'd be optimizing for a specific processor, now I'm throwing multiple options at every processor and using the one that's fastest. And yes, you still need to know assembly language. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 7 21:05:23 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:05:23 -0600 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:28:14 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > My ASR33 lacks tractor pins. Are there models that have them? > > So do both of mine, but according to the parts book, there's a different > platten mechanism with sprockets, and with, IIRC, a formfeed mechanism. > I've never seen it 'in the flesh', though. I've never even seen pictures of it. I can imagine that this option existed but that most people didn't get it because it cost extra? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 21:13:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:13:45 -0400 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I've never even seen pictures of it. ?I can imagine that this option > existed but that most people didn't get it because it cost extra? There were zillions of options for most every model Teletype (probably the most for 28s), including some really wild ones (two color printing and on-the-fly speed changes being some of the more bizzare). -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 21:17:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:17:48 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DBD74E.1070503@nktelco.net> References: <49DA8221.6020305@nktelco.net> <49DBD74E.1070503@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Someone on the list (whose attribution wasn't passed on) > >>>> First, how could anybody get anything done with an assembly >>>> language. > >> -ethan > > It was me Ethan. Ah. > What is the emoticon for sarcasm? :-) That would be the one. ;-) Sorry for not spotting it - in the context of the stream-of-postings, the sarcasm was entirely unclear to me. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 7 21:18:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:18:36 -0600 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:15:45 +0100. <1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1239135345.14799.91.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: > I get stuff done with assembly language every day. I can too. I just get a *lot* more 3D graphics done with a HLL. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 7 21:23:09 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:23:09 -0600 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:52:50 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > > > And too few people who take the trouble to learn the assembly bother > > > to learn the machine representation of the instructions--or the > > > architecture of the implementation. Even fewer learn how to time > > > instruction execution--perhaps it's no longer relevant. > > > > All of this is now the job of the compiler. > > > > It ain't 1980 anymore. > > > > You've never found a compiler bug? :-) To be honest, no. Every time I *thought* it was a compiler bug, it was mine. Then again, I don't work in anything remotely like embedded computing where the quality of the compiler can vary considerably I'm told. I often hear from game programmers that game console C++ compilers are pretty shitty. Apparently the console vendors insist on making their own compilers or licensing a shitty one instead of making a decent back end for gcc or something reasonably like that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 7 21:25:39 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:25:39 -0600 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:56:07 -0700. <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49DB7797.24880.5CCAA535 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 7 Apr 2009 at 17:43, William Donzelli wrote: > > > All of this is now the job of the compiler. > > > > It ain't 1980 anymore. > > I understand. There's no longer any need for an in-depth > understanding of the functioning of one's tools. [...] There's an in-depth understanding and then there's wasting time learning details that don't matter. Where the line is drawn depends on the task at hand and the needs driving the software. There are times where "slow and simple" is the design win, not "I understand what every bit of my 400 MB executable is doing!". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 7 21:30:12 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:30:12 -0600 Subject: LA30 - anyone got one? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DC0C34.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> I've never even seen pictures of it. I can imagine that this option >> existed but that most people didn't get it because it cost extra? > > There were zillions of options for most every model Teletype (probably > the most for 28s), including some really wild ones (two color printing > and on-the-fly speed changes being some of the more bizzare). Well at one time two color printing made sence. Oddly I picked up some surplus caps ... 5uf 330 VAC, .033 uf 600 V and they where Teletype spares of some kind. > -- > Will > > From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 7 21:40:43 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:40:43 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20090408024043.GA31987@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ian King once stated: > > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. My > primary goal was to observe their coding habits, but the radix-8 aspect of > the problem scuttled a lot of them! What was really sad was how many had > trouble with type itself: realizing that a C int type is nothing more than > an abstraction ascribing a meaning to a bit pattern. Many couldn't help > but think of an int as a hex number - or in some cases, a decimal one. Ah, but what about the student that uses strtol() or strtoul() (depending on if negative numbers are required)? About a decade ago, a friend of mine was interviewed for a C programming job, and was asked to read in a list of numbers and store them in a linked list (single pointer), within an hour (and yes, that's all the program had to do). When he finished in thirty minutes (after extensive testing to make sure it worked) he was told he was the *only* candidate to have finished the program in the alloted time frame. -spc (True story---I even knew the interviewer ... ) From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 7 21:50:01 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:50:01 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49DA7336.7080203@mainecoon.com> <7d3530220904061441u28c0252dw215e3cce6cf06cde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090408025000.GB31987@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > I can't tell you how many students think recursion is the answer to > > every question. (Then again, I do deal with a lot of students. > > Or how many engineering managers think recursion has no place in > production code. Yeah, I got chewed out on that one once. While I realized the code may run in a memory-restricted environment, I was told (in ever so clear terms after I wrote the code) that STACK SPACE IS A PREMIUM, not data space (ooh, I still appear to be a bit bitter over that), so of course a bunch of extra pointers per node was fine, but DON'T USE THE STACK! > Recursion is really neat and clever, and really gives the academics > the jollies, but is often a big red flag for unreadable, > hard-to-maintain code in the real world. Depends upon what's being asked. Balanced tree algorithms are a bit nicer if you can use recursion, and otherwise a right nightmare if you can't. The major complaint I see against recursion is that it's often taught with simple examples that are horribly inefficient to use in practice. -spc (the Linux kernel only uses 8K stacks? Man, the more I learn about how such stuff *really* works, the more I'm amazed ... ) From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 7 21:58:37 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:58:37 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: > > > You've never found a compiler bug? :-) > > To be honest, no. > > Every time I *thought* it was a compiler bug, it was mine. Then > again, I don't work in anything remotely like embedded computing where > the quality of the compiler can vary considerably I'm told. I found a compiler bug in the C compiler from SGI (back around 1994). That compiler was much nicer than GCC, but yes, I did find a bug in the compiler (and a work-around since upgrading the compiler would have required buying the next version of IRIX). > I often hear from game programmers that game console C++ compilers are > pretty shitty. Apparently the console vendors insist on making their own > compilers or licensing a shitty one instead of making a decent back end > for gcc or something reasonably like that. Same goes for embedded systems as well, from what I hear from a friend of mine (even those that use GCC have a horrible build system). -spc From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 22:20:26 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:20:26 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> References: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <7d3530220904072020m1d541588g504a2f72eecc0fee@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: >> >> > You've never found a compiler bug? ?:-) >> >> To be honest, no. >> >> Every time I *thought* it was a compiler bug, it was mine. ?Then >> again, I don't work in anything remotely like embedded computing where >> the quality of the compiler can vary considerably I'm told. > > ?I found a compiler bug in the C compiler from SGI (back around 1994). > That compiler was much nicer than GCC, but yes, I did find a bug in the > compiler (and a work-around since upgrading the compiler would have required > buying the next version of IRIX). > >> I often hear from game programmers that game console C++ compilers are >> pretty shitty. ?Apparently the console vendors insist on making their own >> compilers or licensing a shitty one instead of making a decent back end >> for gcc or something reasonably like that. > > ?Same goes for embedded systems as well, from what I hear from a friend of > mine (even those that use GCC have a horrible build system). > > ?-spc > GCC is definitely not the most enlightened compiler out there. Thus spake Kernighan, "useth the Plan 9 compilers", and we did, and the compiler did generate object files, and the linker did link them, and yea even the mkfiles weren't too terrible. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From useddec at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 22:28:10 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:28:10 -0500 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49DBEEBB.3080406@mail.msu.edu> References: <49DBEEBB.3080406@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <624966d60904072028i512c925etd29731aca04770af@mail.gmail.com> I think the +15 feeds all the regulators. It is regulated by a 54-09730 or something like that. It's located in the high front of the H742 by the small muffin fan. I hope this helps. Also, the 11/40 has a lot of jumpers that have to be set for the options you have(KW11, KE11, stack limit, FIS, etc). I know everyone says to check power on the backplane, and not the molex, but now you know why this is not always the way to go. Sorry, I don't have prints handy On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > So I'm now the proud father of a DEC PDP 11/40, which should be a fun > project/adventure to get running again. > > I have been testing out the power supply and everything looked good this > morning, at which point I figured I'd populate the CPU backplane and see > what would happen. The answer is: not much -- occasionally a few LEDs would > light up, but the machine was completely unresponsive. > > I went a bit further and tested the voltages at the backplane, and while > checking the +15V, my probe slipped momentarily, bumping a nearby wirewrap > pin, causing a small spark. Now, where I once had +15V, I have 0V. And > since the -15V regulator is powered (in part) from the +15V line, that's > dead too. > > I was hoping, after reading through the documents again, that it would be > something as simple as fuse F1 on the power control board, but no such luck. > The fuse is still good. > > Any suggestions for what's most likely to have blown when I screwed up > here? Any recommendations for working on this supply? I'm really looking > forward to pulling this thing out of the rack to work on it -- this thing > looks heavy :) > > Thanks, > Josh (still slapping himself for screwing this up...) > > From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 7 22:29:19 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 22:29:19 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904072020m1d541588g504a2f72eecc0fee@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> <7d3530220904072020m1d541588g504a2f72eecc0fee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DC1A0F.2050302@jbrain.com> John Floren wrote: > > GCC is definitely not the most enlightened compiler out there. > Is there some context around that statement? It seems a pretty solid compiler to me, and I use it on 3 targets, one of which is a microcontroller. Jim From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 7 22:29:46 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:29:46 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com><1239135345.14799.91.camel@elric><49DB653C.7458.5C83237B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49DC1A2A.9030408@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli >>Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:44 PM >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running >> >> >> >>>And too few people who take the trouble to learn the assembly bother >>>to learn the machine representation of the instructions--or the >>>architecture of the implementation. Even fewer learn how to time >>>instruction execution--perhaps it's no longer relevant. >>> >>> >>All of this is now the job of the compiler. >> >>It ain't 1980 anymore. >> >> > >True. But it remains the case that there are tasks that push the limits >of what the available processors can do. Or there may be special >considerations that you simply can't tell the compiler -- either it >doesn't know, or you can't say it in C. > >I continue to do assembly language programming, occasionally. It's a >small fraction of the total code but it has to be done that way for one >reason or another; the compiler just isn't an option. > >For example, I have some cache flush code that runs about 10x the speed >of C code. And it works correctly, which the C code can't because the >hardware has some very odd requirements that no compiler ever written >can cope with. > > Where a compiler also has a problem is when using the extra speed available from taking advantage of L1 and even L2 cache speeds - as opposed to the speed available from using only RAM. For example, I have an inner loop which is very fast when it uses L1 cache for the data. This inner loop initially executes very well and very efficiently so long as the advance increment is sufficiently small to take advantage of the L1 cache size. But when the advance increment reaches a certain size (which is too large for the L1 cache), then the inner loop range must be modified to take advantage of L2 cache. Eventually, even L2 cache is too small and actual RAM must be used. No compiler will ever be able to support the various sizes of L1 and L2 cache on different CPUs, so this application will only be able to reach maximum efficiency using code which is optimized to take advantage of the characteristics displayed by the relative speeds achieved by L1, L2 and RAM. In addition, with the newest CPUs just out, L3 cache will likely add an additional layer of complexity. This does not mean that all coding problems require this level of sophistication. In some cases, a compiler is the best solution. And for code which is run only once, the efficiency often does not matter since just getting a non-trivial program to work takes more time than any optimization can ever gain. So there are always going to be many programs, maybe even most, where optimization is not relevant. But there will also be a few programs where optimization is essential and in some cases is the actual point of the program in the first place. Jerome Fine From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 22:53:04 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:53:04 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DC1A0F.2050302@jbrain.com> References: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> <7d3530220904072020m1d541588g504a2f72eecc0fee@mail.gmail.com> <49DC1A0F.2050302@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220904072053x4a3165f3oda3ab5890996aba7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > John Floren wrote: >> >> GCC is definitely not the most enlightened compiler out there. >> > > Is there some context around that statement? > > It seems a pretty solid compiler to me, and I use it on 3 targets, one of > which is a microcontroller. > > Jim > I'd like it if Linux wasn't built around the many weirdnesses of GCC X.Y.Z, and heaven help you if you want to compile with a non-GCC compiler. I've heard tales (from reputable people who have been doing Unix longer than I've been alive) of not being able to build GCC with various previous versions. The toolchain is huge, and the whole thing just seems baroque as hell. Have I been bitten by any of these things? Well, I have had software fail to compile for no reason other than having the wrong GCC version (no, don't remember what software, seems like half of the Linux source out there won't even compile most of the time), the others, not yet. However, all the real programming I've done in the last couple years has been in Plan 9 with the Plan 9 editor, the Plan 9 dialect of C, and the Plan 9 compilers and linkers (8c, 8l, 6c, 6l, qc, ql, etc.). I'm rather dreading the MPI programming I'll soon have to do for my Multi Processor Systems course, which will be POSIX C (with MPI added in), written in vi or emacs unless I can compile one of my favored Plan 9 editors on the cluster, and compiled with GCC. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 7 23:32:09 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:32:09 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904072053x4a3165f3oda3ab5890996aba7@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> <7d3530220904072020m1d541588g504a2f72eecc0fee@mail.gmail.com> <49DC1A0F.2050302@jbrain.com> <7d3530220904072053x4a3165f3oda3ab5890996aba7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DC28C9.7080608@jbrain.com> John Floren wrote: > > > I'd like it if Linux wasn't built around the many weirdnesses of GCC > X.Y.Z, and heaven help you if you want to compile with a non-GCC > compiler. > > I've heard tales (from reputable people who have been doing Unix > longer than I've been alive) of not being able to build GCC with > various previous versions. > > The toolchain is huge, and the whole thing just seems baroque as hell. > > Have I been bitten by any of these things? Well, I have had software > fail to compile for no reason other than having the wrong GCC version > (no, don't remember what software, seems like half of the Linux source > out there won't even compile most of the time), the others, not yet. > However, all the real programming I've done in the last couple years > has been in Plan 9 with the Plan 9 editor, the Plan 9 dialect of C, > and the Plan 9 compilers and linkers (8c, 8l, 6c, 6l, qc, ql, etc.). > I'm rather dreading the MPI programming I'll soon have to do for my > Multi Processor Systems course, which will be POSIX C (with MPI added > in), written in vi or emacs unless I can compile one of my favored > Plan 9 editors on the cluster, and compiled with GCC. > I guess to each his/her own, but I've never had such issues compiling on Linux. I often have issues with some include file or library not being present, but I don't blame GCC for that. I think there are better compilers out there for specific platforms (Intel I understand makes a very good compiler for x86 targets), but I must say I am impressed by a toolchain I can compile with multiple targets and then compile code for 3 targets with suitable command line switches. I didn't realize there's a lot of call for Plan9 out there, but I'm not up on all things. In my world, there is a distinct advantage to knowing GCC (any platform). And, I know, given the topic I am somewhat hijacking, folks won't care to hear this, but the "good enough" seems to often best the "best", because it's, well, good enough. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 7 23:31:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:31:28 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <49DBC630.27572.5DFDC848@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2009 at 20:25, Richard wrote: > There's an in-depth understanding and then there's wasting time > learning details that don't matter. Where the line is drawn depends > on the task at hand and the needs driving the software. There are > times where "slow and simple" is the design win, not "I understand > what every bit of my 400 MB executable is doing!". No, but there's a line at "I'm a (C++, Java, name-your-poison)) programmer. "I don't care about the machine architecture or instruction set because the compiler handles all that for me. If the code doesn't run fast enough, I tell the client to get a faster machine." Sometimes there is no faster machine. I remember working on a proposal back in the dark ages (we didn't get the contract) for ECMWF (European Medium Range Weather Forecasts) and chatting with one of the customer's technical people. His statement "Your system is very nice, but we could really use something about a thousand times faster" really hit me. Of course, that was when 100 MFlop was very fast, not something you'd find on a slow GPU. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 7 23:39:26 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 22:39:26 -0600 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:31:28 -0700. <49DBC630.27572.5DFDC848@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49DBC630.27572.5DFDC848 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Sometimes there is no faster machine. I remember working on a > proposal back in the dark ages (we didn't get the contract) for > ECMWF (European Medium Range Weather Forecasts) and chatting with one > of the customer's technical people. His statement "Your system is > very nice, but we could really use something about a thousand times > faster" really hit me. While this statement is indeed true for WEATHER FORECASTING, the average programmer is not attempting to solve "Grand Challenge" problems. Probably less than 1/10,000th of a percent of all programmers are working in that field. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 8 02:12:51 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:12:51 +0100 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49DC1A0F.2050302@jbrain.com> References: <20090408025837.GC31987@brevard.conman.org> <7d3530220904072020m1d541588g504a2f72eecc0fee@mail.gmail.com> <49DC1A0F.2050302@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <49DC4E73.70203@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2009 04:29, Jim Brain wrote: > John Floren wrote: >> >> GCC is definitely not the most enlightened compiler out there. >> > Is there some context around that statement? > > It seems a pretty solid compiler to me, and I use it on 3 targets, one > of which is a microcontroller. gcc is designed around the x86 family, and on a good day produces decent code for that family. Use it to generate code for a different endianness or different architecture and it "does less well". Take code written for gcc's foibles and compile it with another good compiler, and see how many complaints the other compiler makes about code that gcc lets by. The speed and (in)efficiency might not be apparent unless you have something else to compare it with, but for SGIs and Suns, I do. Last time I used gcc to compile something for an SGI, it took longer to do the compilation (not counting the time to find gcc-compatible libraries), and the resulting code was significantly larger and significantly slower than the result from SGI's compiler. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 10 21:04:06 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:04:06 -0400 Subject: xxdp diag listings? FKACA0.BIC? Message-ID: <20130.1239415446@mini> Does anyone have xxdp diagnostic listings, specifically for some of the 11/34 diagnostics, like FKACA0.BIC? I am led to believe the diag listings were put out on microfiche. Any chance someone has scanned these? thanks -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 10 20:43:16 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:43:16 -0700 Subject: Surplus stores in San Francisco / Silicon Valley. Message-ID: <49DFF5B4.4050905@bitsavers.org> > Your first, last, and perhaps only stop should be Weird Stuff Warehouse. yuk If you're in town this weekend, go to the DeAnza College flea market Saturday morning. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 11 00:04:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:04:35 -0700 Subject: Surplus stores in San Francisco / Silicon Valley. In-Reply-To: <49DFF5B4.4050905@bitsavers.org> References: <49DFF5B4.4050905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49DFC273.7152.6D8F5E96@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2009 at 18:43, Al Kossow wrote: > If you're in town this weekend, go to the DeAnza College flea market > Saturday morning. Also, have a look here: http://www.junktronix.com/svss/ Cheers, Chuck From jefferwin at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:13:47 2009 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:13:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for PLM86 compiiler Message-ID: <7c7c96a50904011113x29af5c9cy72a111142ae34cf0@mail.gmail.com> I have added an 8088 to my Imsai 8080 (using the CompuPro/Godbout 8085/88 dual processor card). I have been all over the internet and have not been able to find a copy of PL/M86 and associated linker and locator. I know they must be out there, but none of the CPM86 sites have the tools. As an alternative, I could use a C86 compiler, but the C language overhead is huge. The AZTEC C86 compiler creates about 5K of 'stuff' for a main() with no #includes that simply returns. I suspect there is a ton of DOS support stuff that gets dragged in. PLM86 is designed more for creating PROM code, which is what I really need. Can anyone out there point me in the right direction? PLM86 or a C compiler that understands the concept of PROMable code? Jeff Erwin From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 2 11:58:46 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> References: <49D38558.2050704@netscape.net> Message-ID: <200904021701.NAA24027@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Does anyone have any AUI cables they do not need? I could use about > five or six and the shorter, the better. The minimum is 2 meters, I > believe. I don't know the spec, but I once made a cable with two DA15s and about a foot of 15-conductor ribbon cable and it worked fine. (At 10Mbit speeds, a foot of wire gets lost in the impedance bump caused by the connectors in the first place. Or at least that was the theory, and the practice seemed to bear it out.) There can't really be any true minimum; transceivers are regularly plugged directly into machines, so zero-length "cables" work. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jrr at flippers.com Thu Apr 2 14:26:54 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:26:54 -0700 Subject: Dot Matrix head rebuild...Anadex and others. Message-ID: <49D5117E.4070907@flippers.com> Anyone have any info on rebuilding the head for a regular 9-pin dot matrix printer? I have an open pin-5 coil on mine, and I would like to take it apart to see if I can repair/replace the coil, BUT I am a bit concerned about taking these things apart. Springs flying off, etc. Looking on-line does not turn up anything (so far) on dismantling these suckers. If necessary I will document it myself, but was hoping the info was already out there! The head I have is an Anadex DPH-100, and the only place on-line that shows them no longer repairs 'em! Nor did the tech I spoke to recall any details... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jefferwin at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 13:06:43 2009 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:06:43 -0700 Subject: PLM86 needed Message-ID: <7c7c96a50904031106k27835716u96ea7c89741a1ef2@mail.gmail.com> I purchased the Godbout 85/88 card, seems to be working fine so far, although not at 5Mhz. I must have a memory card that can't handle the blazing 5 Mhz access. I am looking for a PLM86 compiler. I have the PLM80 compiler and linker/locator (if anyone needs this, please let me know) but am struggling finding the PLM86 compiler and associated linker/locator. I am currently loading code into my system via a HEX loader I wrote and sending the hex file in via the serial port from my Mac Pro (yes, a $5000 quad-processor computer serving as a dumb terminal to my 2Mhx 8080). I want to be able to write PLM86 code and do the same for the 8088 on the GodBout card. Anyone know where I can find PLM86? Jeff Erwin From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 3 13:42:50 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 20:42:50 +0200 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? In-Reply-To: <200904031801.n33I0UeU069732@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200904031801.n33I0UeU069732@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49D658AA.7010703@softjar.se> "Paul Koning" wrote: >> > I >> > have been told that the DEQNAs had problems and would lock up or >> > experience >> > other reliability issues. DEQNAs are not supported after about VMS >> > 5.4/5.5, >> > which is why I need a DELQA. I am not sure what the minimum VMS > version >> > is >> > for DELQA though. > > DEQNAs never worked right, even after 12 revisions. That's why they > were dumped and the LQA was created. For moderate loads a QNA should be > ok, though. The big problem was that they weren't good enough for Local > Area VAXcluster use, which was a big thing in those days. I don't think > DECnet was thrilled with them either but DECnet was more tolerant of > misbehavior. > > I don't remember DEQNAs being dumped by the PDP11 operating systems. That's because they haven't been. :-) I actually have an interesting reverse behaviour, where I can get a DELQA to freeze on my 11/93 running RSX, while a DEQNA will continue working fine. (I do suspect it is because the extra care DECnet takes to keep a QNA ticking which saves me, but anyway... Interesting...) And to answer the OP: the cab kits are the same, modulo the letters under the connector. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat Apr 4 13:14:22 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:14:22 +0200 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904041801.n34I0O6Z088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200904041801.n34I0O6Z088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49D7A37E.2040609@softjar.se> Richard wrote: > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> > Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing >> > all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things >> > expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. > > How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? By the simple fact that a tape is *never* a stream of bytes? Unix tries to mimic a stream of bytes on a tape, but as far as I know, noone wants that, and never uses it, instead going to the raw device, and doing all the operations a tape requires anyway. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 4 22:08:31 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FTP xfer modes, was Re: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49D7EEE1.8000208@crash.com> References: <49D7EEE1.8000208@crash.com> Message-ID: <200904050311.XAA22225@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > It was about 20 years ago that I was working with CMU-TEK and TGV's > MultiNet TCP/IP packages on VMS. ISTR that there was a mode > available in the FTP client for one or both of these that I could use > with other hosts where records were used (VMS, TOPS, etc) so that I > could transfer files with the record structure intact. FTP has a lot of facilities that nobody ever uses in today's pointy-clicky "everything's a stream of bytes" world (which the people who designed those into FTP would, like as not, justifiably correct to "...stream of octets"). You might want to actually go read the spec (RFC 959, IIRC) if you care about this stuff. Of course, this is not to say that there wasn't some private extension in use in the setup you saw. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 5 09:38:05 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904051446.KAA26092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? >> Magtape has blocks. > What exactly is a block? > Is it defined as a sequence of bits or as a sequence of bytes? It depends on the tape technology. The most classical one in my (admittedly limited) experience has blocks that are variable-sized strings of bytes. That is, it would be accurate for these purposes to model the tape as a stream of symbols from a 258-symbol alphabet: 256 bytes plus "block boundary" and "tape mark", where block boundaries delimit blocks and tape marks delimit files. I'm not sure this model is totally accurate - for example, I'm not sure a zero-length block is possible - and it's definitely not a close match to the implementation. But it's probably close enough to get the flavour. More recent technologies are a bit different. Some (all?) QIC tapes, for example, are not streams of variable-sized blocks but streams of 512-octet blocks. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at softjar.se Sun Apr 5 21:08:11 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 04:08:11 +0200 Subject: Tape records In-Reply-To: <200904051701.n35H0h1C024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200904051701.n35H0h1C024971@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49D9640B.3070807@softjar.se> Richard wrote: > In article <2877e57dba24bc750739ccec428ded28 at lunar-tokyo.net>, > Daniel Seagraves writes: >>> In article >>> , >>> Ethan Dicks writes: >>> >>>> Back in the day, we used to move copies around on magtape, bypassing >>>> all sorts of stream-of-bytes issues. Today, of course, most things >>>> expect streams of bytes, so that's how most things are presented. >> On Apr 4, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote: >> >>> How does magtape avoid the stream-of-bytes issue? >> Magtape has blocks. > > What exactly is a block? > > Is it defined as a sequence of bits or as a sequence of bytes? > > If its just a sequence of bytes that define a block, I'm not sure I > understand how blocks avoid the stream-of-bytes issue. Good question. And people have some interesting answers as well. :-) A tape block is simply a bunch of bytes. The point is that it is a spcific number of bytes. A single read or write will process one tape block. This is important. It means that doing two consequtive writes for n bytes will not produce the same result as one write for 2*n bytes. It also means that if you request to read n bytes, and the tape block is shorter, you will not get data from the next tape block in addition to the current, but instead the read will return less data. Assuming the block is n bytes long, and you request a read for x number of bytes. If x > n you will get the whole block, but no more than the block. If x < n you will only get x bytes from the block, while the rest will be skipped. The next read will read from the next block anyway. Each block is physically separated from other blocks by a inter-block gap. This is meta-data that is not received as a part of a read, but which can be inferred from the number of bytes actually read, unless you get a data overrun error, in which case the block was larger than the read allowed for. In addition to this, you also have something called file marks. When you read and the tape position is at a file mark, you usually get a return value indicating that you read 0 bytes. This is a hint that it was a file mark you passed. Convention then have it that two consequtive file marks indicates the logical end of tape. However, ANSI-formatted tapes look and work slightly different, but that is all still implemented on top of the concept of tape blocks and file marks. Those two details are defined by hardware. This means that a tape can never properly behave like a stream of bytes. As I've said, Unix have a way of trying to make tapes look like a stream of bytes, but noone uses that, since it's not useful, nor meaningful. Even in Unix, you can control these things correctly from a program. That's what ioctls are for. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon Apr 6 08:47:53 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:47:53 +0200 Subject: Text differences In-Reply-To: <200904061253.n36CrQVC031385@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200904061253.n36CrQVC031385@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49DA0809.6000901@softjar.se> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 4 Apr 2009, Ian King wrote: >> > Source files should not be giving you a 'record problem' (since they're >> > text) - but there is another potential issue. I downloaded some BASIC >> > source files on a PC, zipped them up and transferred them over to a VAX. >> > I picked one to compile (this is BASIC we're talking about), and it >> > failed with an error per line. I opened up the file in TPU and >> > discovered that there was a 'spurious' CR at the end of each line. I >> > removed those and everything compiled and linked. Take a look at the >> > line-level translation that may be happening. -- Ian > > New-line is not really standardized. Definitely not. > Although the machines may all claim to be using ASCII, > newline may be represented by > CR LF, > CR, > LF, > or LF CR (rarest) ...or just a record end. > The reasons are enough for a thread of its own. If you even think that you can find a reason. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rikbos at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 6 09:17:47 2009 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:17:47 +0200 Subject: Tek 40XX keyboard on epay Message-ID: <67A1877749E34B2391E21A6037E22DF4@xp1800> 190294196331 seller thinks it's made of gold.. -Rik From jefferwin at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:12:43 2009 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:12:43 -0700 Subject: PLM86 compiler needed Message-ID: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> I purchased the Godbout 85/88 card for my Imsai 8080, seems to be working fine so far, although not at 5Mhz. I must have a memory card that can't handle the blazing 5 Mhz access. I am looking for a PLM86 compiler. I have the PLM80 compiler and linker/locator (if anyone needs this, please let me know) but am struggling finding the PLM86 compiler and associated linker/locator. I am currently loading code into my system via a HEX loader I wrote and sending the hex file in via the serial port from my Mac Pro (yes, a $5000 quad-processor computer serving as a dumb terminal to my 2Mhx 8080). I want to be able to write PLM86 code and do the same for the 8088 on the GodBout card. Anyone know where I can find PLM86? Jeff Erwin From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 6 14:11:55 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <49D9EE8E.21645.56CB6DD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200904061915.PAA06198@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > So, pull a programmer under 30 at random from his desk and ask him to > write a polyphase merge sort optimized for 8 tapes. Or even lots over 30 - I'm 45 this July and I've never written a real polyphase merge sort, or indeed any other external sort. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 6 16:13:07 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly have > learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually > "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an optimized > "bubble" is better for. I'm not sure a CS graduate _should_. That's less an aspect of the theoretical discipline CS is than of the correpsnoding practical discipline (programming, software engineering, pick your favourite term for it). Learning about the difference between shellsort's complexity and bubblesort's and heapsort's is important. But I'm not sure I'd expect a theoretician to correctly choose the right one for any particular application. Well, except for people who got a "CS" degree from schools that don't understand the difference between theory and practice, I suppose. But I wouldn't expect too much of them ayway. (Sure, they might be good. But so might someone who's totally self-taught - and my money would be on the latter as more likely to be.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 16:19:43 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few free items Message-ID: <35546.70584.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Mike, ?Interested in the 68020 ISA card if it's still available. Thanks. --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Mike Maginnis wrote: From: Mike Maginnis Subject: A few free items To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 5:02 PM A few items to give away. I came across a box of stuff as I was cleaning out the server room. Might be of interest to someone, might not.? I'd prefer local pickup (Denver, CO area), but could be persuaded to ship if you cover S/H. * CHIPS Enhanced Graphics Card Rev 1.0 ??? * Headland Technology 16-bit ISA VGA video card VGA-16 650-0122 (c) 1988 * GPIB IEEE-488 board, unknown manuf. 8-bit ISA.? "6323706 REV A 667523" printed on PCB, next to a logo like a palm tree with a small "2" next to it. * Adaptec AHA-1542B 16-bit ISA SCSI card * Unknown board from "The Palantir Corporation" (c) 1988 - has a Motorola 68020.? 16-bit ISA.? Maybe a co-processor board? * 5 9-track tapes,3M and Memorex. One is labeled "MultiNet 3.2 Rev A", another "MultiNet 3.2, Rev B".? Others are hand-labeled.? No idea what's actually on them.? They probably haven't been used since the early 90's. All of these items are untested and provided AS IS.? Anything unclaimed goes to the recycle bin. I'll put some images up tonight when I get home from work, if anyone's interested. - Mike From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:57:39 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: YASBEC documentation needed Message-ID: Title says it. Does anyone know if the documentation for the YASBEC single-board computer has been scanned or is otherwise available? I have one, along with an unassembled memory board and the PCB for what appears to be a video card. Cannot find a shred of information on either of these. Steve -- From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 6 22:13:48 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090406154409.S2566@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20090406154409.S2566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200904070315.XAA08719@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. And what did you do with the people who wrote (int)strtol(s,0,8)? :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mskipatrol at nc.rr.com Tue Apr 7 14:48:45 2009 From: mskipatrol at nc.rr.com (mskipatrol at nc.rr.com) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:48:45 -0400 Subject: looking for Orchid PCTurbo 186 drivers/software Message-ID: <20090407194845.53Z3H.97096.root@cdptpa-web18-z02> Does anyone have a copy of the Orchid PC-Turbo 186 accelerator card diskette/drivers ? I have one of these cards but no drivers for the card. Thanks..... mwhite8 at nc.rr.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 7 23:33:03 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 00:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904080443.AAA17165@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There's an in-depth understanding and then there's wasting time > learning details that don't matter. I'd actually argue there's no such thing. > There are times where "slow and simple" is the design win, not "I > understand what every bit of my 400 MB executable is doing!". Sure. But knowing the details "that don't matter" always helps; if nothing else, it helps understand _why_ they don't matter and thus exactly where the line between the details tha don't matter and the ones that do is. I believe that at least minimal understanding at all lower (and often at least the next couple of higher) levels is always valuable, no matter which level it is you're working at. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Apr 7 23:48:43 2009 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:48:43 +1000 Subject: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/04/2009, at 4:49 AM, Richard wrote: > > The solution seems to be to capture the file in a way that captures > the metadata as well, like StuffIt for Mac files. The easiest approach is to put the file(s) to be transferred into a BACKUP save set. Transfer the save set via ftp (or any other method - kermit anyone?). Sure the BACKUP save set has lost it's attributes during the transfer, but it's trivial to fix. Even more so with V8.4 which has a /repair switch to BACKUP for just this purpose. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 11 03:15:44 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 01:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rehabbing stiff cables Message-ID: Does anyone have any ideas on how to rehab cables that have gone stiff? Case in point, most of my old Apple cables are semi-permenantly set into odd curly shapes. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 23:14:33 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:14:33 -0500 Subject: Silicon Graphics files for Chap 11 and is sold to Rackable for $25 Million In-Reply-To: References: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <49D351BF.20311.3CF659D4@cclist.sydex.com> <49D367CD.15295.3D4CB957@cclist.sydex.com> <49D3D295.7030509@gmail.com> Message-ID: april fools? On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > GE and Honeywell's computer businesses were sold to Groupe Bull, where >> they survive. They still make a very small number of traditional >> mainframes, but most of their customers now use systems under emulation on >> Itanium processors. (Bull NovaScale) >> > > Back in January of '94 I was involved with moving off of DPS-6 Minicomputer > hardware running GCOS-6 onto HP-9000's running GCOS-6 under an emulator > running on HP-UX v7.something. Prior to that I worked at a site running on > DPS-8's. A part of me likes the fact that GCOS-8 is still around, another > part is horrified at the level of vendor lock in. It was not a "user > friendly" environment. > > Zane > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Apr 11 06:42:00 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 05:42:00 -0600 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kits the same or different? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E08208.7060104@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm going through a box of DEC boards and I found a DELQA, probably my > only one, and in the box is a cab kit with "DEQNA" stenciled below the > AUI connector (DEC P/N 7-21202-1K). Will it work or do I need a > DELQA-specific cable? DELQA works on a DEQNA cab kit, as they are very similar (one additional wire on DELQA ?). There was a discussion about it years ago, and somebody from this list emailed a complete pin out. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 07:23:51 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:23:51 -0500 Subject: rehabbing stiff cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904110523i4e348045s5ef31b6b031b3a8b@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:15 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone have any ideas on how to rehab cables that have gone stiff? Case > in point, most of my old Apple cables are semi-permenantly set into odd > curly shapes. Maybe warm them up a bit with a heat gun? It's interesting to hear about how old computer parts age. I've heard of leaking batteries and capacitors, but this one is a first for me. :-) brian From james at jdfogg.com Sat Apr 11 07:32:09 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: rehabbing stiff cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1962.192.168.99.142.1239453129.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> > Does anyone have any ideas on how to rehab cables that have gone stiff? > Case in point, most of my old Apple cables are semi-permenantly set into > odd curly shapes. You might try DOT-5 automotive brake fluid. It's pure silicone oil. It's sometimes used on old rubber in automotive restoration. -- James - Certified autodidactic polymath and proud of it! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Apr 11 08:28:04 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 06:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rehabbing stiff cables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <356510.7282.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/11/09, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone have any ideas on how to rehab cables that have > gone stiff? Case in point, most of my old Apple cables are > semi-permenantly set into odd curly shapes. I'd put them somewhere warm, preferably uncurled. Try hanging them by one connector from a tall shelf so that they can hang straight, and warming them a bit with a hair dryer. Or hang them in a sunny window. I've had a similar problem with cables on older game controllers. I've had some luck just hanging them by their connectors and let gravity make them "relax". but in this case, the cables weren't stiff, they were just curly from being coiled up tight for so long. -Ian From js at cimmeri.com Sat Apr 11 10:12:26 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:12:26 -0500 Subject: looking for Orchid PCTurbo 186 drivers/software In-Reply-To: <20090407194845.53Z3H.97096.root@cdptpa-web18-z02> References: <20090407194845.53Z3H.97096.root@cdptpa-web18-z02> Message-ID: <49E0B35A.6070006@cimmeri.com> I have the Orchid Tiny Turbo 286, but no drivers are needed.. just plugs in and goes. jS mskipatrol at nc.rr.com wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the Orchid PC-Turbo > 186 accelerator card diskette/drivers ? > I have one of these cards but no drivers for the card. > > Thanks..... > mwhite8 at nc.rr.com > > > From js at cimmeri.com Sat Apr 11 10:15:32 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:15:32 -0500 Subject: PLM86 compiler needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E0B414.90508@cimmeri.com> Check your email. Jeff Erwin wrote: > I purchased the Godbout 85/88 card for my Imsai 8080, seems to be working > fine so far, although > not at 5Mhz. I must have a memory card that can't handle the blazing 5 Mhz > access. > > I am looking for a PLM86 compiler. I have the PLM80 compiler and > linker/locator > (if anyone needs this, please let me know) but am struggling finding the > PLM86 > compiler and associated linker/locator. I am currently loading code into my > system via a HEX loader I wrote and sending the hex file in via the serial > port > from my Mac Pro (yes, a $5000 quad-processor computer serving as a dumb > terminal > to my 2Mhx 8080). > > I want to be able to write PLM86 code and do the same for the 8088 on the > GodBout card. > > Anyone know where I can find PLM86? > > Jeff Erwin > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Apr 11 11:31:15 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 09:31:15 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904070315.XAA08719@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <18906.27767.193095.561594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20090406154409.S2566@shell.lmi.net>, <200904070315.XAA08719@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Since that was a brief comment in my original email, I failed to mention that they were told they did not have access to the Standard C library. However, in a followup question, a surprising number demonstrated little knowledge of that collection of functionality. I don't remember how many times I explained strtok().... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse [mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG] Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running > I used to ask college grads to write a function in C to convert a > null-terminated string representing an octal number into an int. And what did you do with the people who wrote (int)strtol(s,0,8)? :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 11 11:18:38 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:18:38 -0600 Subject: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <49D159CF.1010406@jwsss.com> References: <49CFE62E.2060406@jetnet.ab.ca> <49D158FE.8040105@nktelco.net> <49D159CF.1010406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <49E0C2DE.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> jim s wrote: > I don't do international buyers (again sorry ben and Canada), so that > works for me. I send them (money orders) any way ... tough luck. :) > I post in the description that I take money orders. So far ebay has not > shut me down for it. > I also don't do auctions, but buy it now or best offer. Cheaper, and > don't have to worry about selling something valuable for $1.00. > Jim I have found good deals on ebay, but to me how well a item is packaged is a big concern with me. I thend to buy a few rare items rather than the 99cent ipod, so if something is broken in shipping , I can not get a replacement. This limits just who I buy from. Ben. From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Apr 11 12:02:39 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:02:39 -0400 Subject: HP 21mx In-Reply-To: References: <01C9AAAD.3B1B9FA0@host-208-72-122-46.dyn.295.ca>, Message-ID: This is an old one, but it just showed up on cctech. On Sunday, March 22, 2009 at 9:18, dwight elvey wrote: > If I had the sequence SLA,INA would the skip happen before the INA or > after? Would the test for the skip happen before or after the INA? The general rules are: 1. The sequences are executed left to right. 2. The next instruction will be skipped if any skip test is true. If a skip test was true, P is incremented just before completing the current instruction. This sets the stage for the instruction skip when the next instruction is fetched. So SLA,INA tests if bit 0 of A is 0 and then increments A. If the test was true, then P is incremented. An instruction such as RAL,CLE,SLA,ERA rotates A left, then clears the E register, then tests if bit 0 of A is clear, and then rotates A with E right. If the test was true, then P is incremented. The effect is to clear the MSB of A and skip the next instruction if it had been zero at the start of the instruction. To be really perverse, the instruction CMA,SEZ,CME,SSA,SLA,INA: - one's complements A - tests if E is 0 - complements E - tests if bit 15 of A is 0 - tests if bit 0 of A is 0 - increments A So the effect is to two's complement A, complement E, and skip if E was zero or the MSB or LSB of A was one on entry (because the test on E is done before its complement, but the tests on A are done after its complement). There is a caveat when RSS is combined with multiple skip instructions; see one of the 21MX Operating and Reference Manuals for details. -- Dave From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Apr 11 12:03:33 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:03:33 -0700 Subject: laser scope References: <200903232033.QAA02457@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <000501c9bac7$72666060$0201a8c0@hal9000> I beg to differ. There is nothing that would preclude mounting say six long skinny front surface mirrors into a hex configuration ( as viewed from the side ) onto a motor shaft and spinning it pretty damn fast ( below such point that it would fly apart ). I've seen a variation of this theme used in some of the UPC scanners, but those have no need to spin fast. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 1:28 PM Subject: Re: laser scope > > The bandwidth of modulating the intensity might well be high, but the > > deflection bandwidth is going to be pretty low. You cna deflect an > > electron mean at freqeuncies of many megahertz, which is going to be > > 'interesting' to acheive using mechanically moved mirrors. > > Yes, but mechanically moved mirrors aren't the only option for beam > deflection. I seem to recall reading of a crystal whose index of > refraction could be changed electrically. A wedge of such a substance > could serve as a beam-deflecting element; I don't know how fast it > responds, but I'm fairly sure it's substantially faster than > mechanically moving a mirror. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Apr 11 12:18:50 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 02:48:50 +0930 Subject: laser scope In-Reply-To: <000501c9bac7$72666060$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <200903232033.QAA02457@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <000501c9bac7$72666060$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200904120248.50483.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sunday 12 April 2009 02:33:33 Scanning wrote: > I beg to differ. There is nothing that would preclude mounting say six long > skinny front surface mirrors into a hex configuration ( as viewed from the > side ) onto a motor shaft and spinning it pretty damn fast ( below such > point that it would fly apart ). I've seen a variation of this theme used > in some of the UPC scanners, but those have no need to spin fast. > > Best regards, Steven In fact, this is exactly what some early mechanically scanned televisions used to use. It's called a mirror drum. Have a look at http://www.televisionexperimenters.com/mirrdrum.html The major issue with this is the drums have to be aligned properly, and they can't be adjusted while the drum is spinning. The Mihaly-Traub Scanner gets around this shortcoming by effectively turning the mirror drum inside out: http://www.televisionexperimenters.com/mhalytrb.html On Tuesday 24 March 2009 05:56:23 Tony Duell wrote: > An eccentric friend of mine once used his Tekky 556 as a video monitor. > It has 2 timebases, which he used for the X and Y sweeps, and fed the > video signal, suitably buffered, into the Zmod input. 80 column text was > very clear, although you pretty much needed a lens to read it ;-) I've done that :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fNnSO5G6hM -- Alexis From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 11 12:36:07 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:36:07 -0600 Subject: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying bidding from buyer's perspective In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:09:25 -0800. <49D0EEB5.7090303@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <49D0EEB5.7090303 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > However from my perspective, every dime over $5.10 (which it was at at > 1am saturday morning, a few hours before the end of the auction) was a > waste of my money. Waaaaaaaaaah. Someone bid against me, waaaaaah. Its an auction. Get used to it, or only purchase "buy-it-now" items. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From js at cimmeri.com Sat Apr 11 13:04:14 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:04:14 -0500 Subject: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying bidding from buyer's perspective In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E0DB9E.3090605@cimmeri.com> >> However from my perspective, every dime over $5.10 (which it was at at >> 1am saturday morning, a few hours before the end of the auction) was a >> waste of my money. >> > Waaaaaaaaaah. Someone bid against me, waaaaaah. > > Its an auction. Get used to it, or only purchase "buy-it-now" items. > I'll add, it astonishes me how some people expect everything for nothing. Are they fresh in from some third-world country where they earn $1000/year for hard labor? Penny pinchers to an extreme degree! jS From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sat Apr 11 13:12:26 2009 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:12:26 +0200 Subject: Wanted: IBM 3741/3742 keyboard. Message-ID: Hello all, Does anyone have a keyboard of an IBM 3741 or 3742 spare ? Mine has stopped working. IBM has used two custom LSI chip in this keyboard and makes it now non repairable :-( Please contact me off list if you can help. Thanks Henk http://www.ibmsystem3.nl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 12:25:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:25:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dot Matrix head rebuild...Anadex and others. In-Reply-To: <49D2AE62.1050700@flippers.com> from "John Robertson" at Mar 31, 9 04:59:30 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone have any info on rebuilding the head for a regular 9-pin dot > matrix printer? I have an open pin-5 coil on mine, and I would like to It depends -- a lot -- on the printer! Some of the printheads were designed to be taken apart and repaired (the one in the KSR43 is one such -- the service manual gives the procedures). Others can be dismantled fully and put back togehter provided you keep seemingly identical parts (like armatures) in the right places. Some cane be partially dismantled and then reassemled. And others are almost impossible to get back together again -- and alas most are in that last category, The prolem is the print pins themselves. When you take the head apart, the pins are forced back through the guides by the return springs. It is thenvery, very, difficult to get all 9 (or whatever) pins in the guides, in the right serquence, not tangled up. So how was it done originally? I believe the pins were made too long (so they could be threaded through all the guides with no tension from the springs), the head was assembled, and the pins ground to length at the end. > take it apart to see if I can repair/replace the coil, BUT I am a bit > concerned about taking these things apart. Springs flying off, etc. > > Looking on-line does not turn up anything (so far) on dismantling these > suckers. If necessary I will document it myself, but was hoping the info > was already out there! > > The head I have is an Anadex DPH-100, and the only place on-line that > shows them no longer repairs 'em! Nor did the tech I spoke to recall any > details... The Anadex I've worked on was certainly of the type where you don't want to dismantle the head!. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 13:17:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:17:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface Message-ID: For those who are still interested in this (Rik?), I've now built the interface from an HP262x keybaord (actually one 'borrowed' from my HP2623 terminal) to my HP120. The differenve between the 2 keyboard interfaces is quite simple. The HP120 puts the scan counter in the keyboard, the interface being the clock and reset lines for this counter, along with an active-high 'current key pressed' siganl. The HP262x puts the scan counter in the terminal, the inteface is the 7 key select lines (basically the outputs of the counter) and an active-low 'key pressed' signal (open-collector). Although the Hp262x runs the keybaord at 5V, it's all 4000 series logic interally, and can be run at the 12V of the HP120 interface. So the interface between this keyoard and the HP120 is little more than a 7 it counter. I've now built it, it's a little box with a DA15 socket on one end to take the plug from the unmodified HP2623 keyboard (I obviously wanted to leave the keyoard unchanged so I can still use it with the 2623 terminal) and a short cable coming out of the other end ending in an RJ11 plug to go into the HP120. Inside are 3 chips, all common 4000 series CMOS parts. : A 4024 (7 bit counter). This is linked to the clock and reset lines from the HP120 via the resisotr/diode protection networks as used in an HP150 keyboard. The bottom 6 outputs of this counter are buffred by a 4050 chip and then fed via a 16 pin header plug nad socket to the DA15 socket for the keyboard. This chip may not be necessary, but some counters don't like driving long cables (glitches on the outputs can change the state of the flip-flops). I dout the 4024 sufferes from this, but adding one chip to be sure seems worth it. The last output from that counter is buffered bu 2 sections of a 4049 in cascade. The reason I used that chip is that I needed a NOT gate to invert the open-collector key-pressed/ signal from the HP2623 keyboard. This I did,, after pulling said signal high with a 3k3 resistor. The output of that NOT gate is again given a diode/resistor protection circuit and fed to the HP120 And it works. It worked first time actually (well, I did test as I went along, but after fitting the last connection , plugging everything in and powering up, it worked). I can type on the keyboard, the correct [1] characters come up. I can use the function keys, configuration screen, etc. [1] Modulo the fact that I have Danish/Norwegian ROMs in my HP120 (!) I am now looking at modifying an HP150 keyboard to work with the HP120. More news if I get that working! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 13:29:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:29:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old Timers [was: CompuPro CPU-68000] In-Reply-To: <200903232024.QAA02360@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Mar 23, 9 04:03:02 pm Message-ID: > > > Given that I don't think in terms of programming, and am much happer > > with a scheamtic than with a VHDL listing, and that I am much, much, > > happier with a 'scope than a simulator, is there any hope for me? > > Define "hope" and maybe I can tell you. :-/ OK, will there ever be a time/place where I can make use of what (limited) skills/abilities I possess? Or am I going to haev to stack shelves (when I'd rather be stacking variables) or flip burgers (when I prefer flip-flops :-)) > > > Or should i connect myself between the anode and cathode of an 807 > > running at full power? > > Well, I feel quite certain that I speak for more than just myself when > I say you'd be sorely missed here. > > But I know what you mean. More and more often, in recent years, I've > felt severely out of step with the society I'm trying to live in, and > one respect - the one that seems to me to be most relevant here - is > that I strongly believe in understanding things all the way down. (Of I think you know me well enough to know that I do too. This doesn't mean I don't use high-level languages. It doesn't mean I won't use CAD tools. It doesn't mean I won;t use VLSI chips. What ie means is that I won't use any of those (any many other things besides) without understnading what the do, and without understanding what the final result of any of those tools really is. So, for example, I'll write in C and compile it, and most of the time that's all I need to do, but sometimes I'll read part of the assembly-language output of the compiler to see just what it is doing. And sometimes I'll use a logic analyser to see that bit of code actually executing. And of course I don't always feel that 'modern' complex solution is the best one. A microcontroller is not the answer to every problem. Yes, they're useful devices, and yes I use them. But sometimes the problem can be solved in a couple of simple logic chips, or even a few discrete transistors. And those are generally the solutions I prefer. I must have told you about the educational 'robot' kits I bought, one designed in the UK and a couple from the Far East. > I get the feeling that, especially with high tech, we are running on > autopilot as far as understanding is concerned: we as a society don't > really grok things, but are just using what's already in place and Indeed. And it worries me -- a lot... > forgetting we don't know how it works and aren't competent to fix it. My views on being able to fix everything I use are well-known... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 13:34:25 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:34:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: laser scope In-Reply-To: <000501c9bac7$72666060$0201a8c0@hal9000> from "Scanning" at Apr 11, 9 10:03:33 am Message-ID: > > I beg to differ. There is nothing that would preclude mounting say six long > skinny front surface mirrors into a hex configuration ( as viewed from the This is basically what goes on inside the optical block of a laser printer, of course. > side ) onto a motor shaft and spinning it pretty damn fast ( below such > point that it would fly apart ). I've seen a variation of this theme used in > some of the UPC scanners, but those have no need to spin fast. Sure, if you wand a raster scan. The OP was talking about a vector display IIRC, where you need to be ale to deflect the beam in a non-regualr way. That's a lot harder to do quickly. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 11 14:31:17 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:31:17 +0200 Subject: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice work ! I've some 125/120 Software and some doc's (some Dutch (translated from english)) Most of the software is on the hpmuseum website to, but I also have the technical system manual for HP150 (got it this week ;-) with all the diagrams of the HP150 and the HP150-II . What I don't have is a sheetfeeder for my scanner so scanning the whole manual is a bit to much but scanning the diagrams or other special info isn't a problem. > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zaterdag 11 april 2009 20:17 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface > > For those who are still interested in this (Rik?), I've now > built the interface from an HP262x keybaord (actually one > 'borrowed' from my HP2623 > terminal) to my HP120. > > The differenve between the 2 keyboard interfaces is quite > simple. The HP120 puts the scan counter in the keyboard, the > interface being the clock and reset lines for this counter, > along with an active-high 'current key pressed' siganl. The > HP262x puts the scan counter in the terminal, the inteface is > the 7 key select lines (basically the outputs of the counter) > and an active-low 'key pressed' signal (open-collector). > Although the Hp262x runs the keybaord at 5V, it's all 4000 > series logic interally, and can be run at the 12V of the > HP120 interface. > > So the interface between this keyoard and the HP120 is little > more than a > 7 it counter. Just like you sayd, the same hardware just placed different. > > I've now built it, it's a little box with a DA15 socket on > one end to take the plug from the unmodified HP2623 keyboard > (I obviously wanted to leave the keyoard unchanged so I can > still use it with the 2623 terminal) and a short cable coming > out of the other end ending in an RJ11 plug to go into the HP120. > > Inside are 3 chips, all common 4000 series CMOS parts. : > > A 4024 (7 bit counter). This is linked to the clock and reset > lines from the HP120 via the resisotr/diode protection > networks as used in an HP150 keyboard. > > The bottom 6 outputs of this counter are buffred by a 4050 > chip and then fed via a 16 pin header plug nad socket to the > DA15 socket for the keyboard. This chip may not be necessary, > but some counters don't like driving long cables (glitches on > the outputs can change the state of the flip-flops). I dout > the 4024 sufferes from this, but adding one chip to be sure > seems worth it. Yes a cents(pence, cents are dutch befrom before the euro) to prevent a lot of trouble. > > The last output from that counter is buffered bu 2 sections > of a 4049 in cascade. The reason I used that chip is that I > needed a NOT gate to invert the open-collector key-pressed/ > signal from the HP2623 keyboard. > This I did,, after pulling said signal high with a 3k3 > resistor. The output of that NOT gate is again given a > diode/resistor protection circuit and fed to the HP120 > > And it works. It worked first time actually (well, I did test > as I went along, but after fitting the last connection , > plugging everything in and powering up, it worked). I can > type on the keyboard, the correct [1] characters come up. I > can use the function keys, configuration screen, etc. Great most of the time I have to debug something like this, because I always do several things together... > [1] Modulo the fact that I have Danish/Norwegian ROMs in my HP120 (!) I've a HP9836 and HP9826 with Swedish keyboards not very different from standaard US-int keyboards. > > I am now looking at modifying an HP150 keyboard to work with > the HP120. > More news if I get that working! > > -tony Have fun, Rik From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 14:40:30 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (dgahling@hotmail.com ) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:40:30 +0000 Subject: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying bidding from buyer's perspective Message-ID: the problem is buyers jacking up their own auctions using friends or fake accts. typically early bids are not actual bids they are just to jack up the price. granted there are honest sellers and buyers but there are practicaly no controls in place for frauds, even in some cases fake items its not always the seller but its a lot harder for a bad buyer to rip people off damn near impossible if yer careful not so with bad sellers and fleabay doesnt care one damn ---------- Sent via Telus My Email 2.0 -----Original Message----- From: js at cimmeri.com Sent: 4/11/2009 6:04:14 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying bidding from buyer's perspective >> However from my perspective, every dime over $5.10 (which it was at at >> 1am saturday morning, a few hours before the end of the auction) was a >> waste of my money. >> > Waaaaaaaaaah. Someone bid against me, waaaaaah. > > Its an auction. Get used to it, or only purchase "buy-it-now" items. > I'll add, it astonishes me how some people expect everything for nothing. Are they fresh in from some third-world country where they earn $1000/year for hard labor? Penny pinchers to an extreme degree! jS From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 17:05:02 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:05:02 -0500 Subject: Cromemco 68000 on ebay In-Reply-To: <498669.68651.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <498669.68651.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If there is a demand for these, say 20 or so, I will make them if you guys have the schematic. a whole lot cheaper than the >$200 that one went for too. Bare boards or kits I assume you have the rom image Randy > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 06:38:58 -0700 > From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Cromemco 68000 on ebay > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I know the guy selling that DPU board. I just bought one from him and am happy with the transaction. > > > Michael Hart > > > > I, the unwilling, was led by the unqualified, to do the unbelievable for so long with so little, that I attempted the impossible with nothing......" > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Cromemco 68000 on ebay > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 12:38 AM > > In article <186448.36128.qm at web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, > Vernon Wright writes: > > > No, I hate [ebay] because it defrauded me in 2005. > > Yet amazingly, lots of people buy from it all the time and aren't > defrauded. > > Have you ever been defrauded *outside* of ebay? Did you then draw the > conclusion that you'll never engage in an economic transaction again? > > > But ebay is infested with scammers/liars/cheats, [...] > > Wow! Infested, you say. I must have the luck of the gods with me > then, as I've never been defrauded. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 11 17:28:03 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20090411152018.W90442@shell.lmi.net> > > I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly have > > learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually > > "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an optimized > > "bubble" is better for. On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, der Mouse wrote: > I'm not sure a CS graduate _should_. That's less an aspect of the > theoretical discipline CS is than of the correpsnoding practical > discipline (programming, software engineering, pick your favourite term > for it). Learning about the difference between shellsort's complexity > and bubblesort's and heapsort's is important. But I'm not sure I'd > expect a theoretician to correctly choose the right one for any > particular application. You don't think agree that even the theoretician should understand that some algorithms can take advantage of existing order and end early, while others are a fixed duration? Example: The library is doing a "retrospective conversion" of its card catalog to an OPAC ("Online Public Access Catalog"). The cards are mechanically scanned. They are nominally in order, however, due to being handled by humans, a lot, there "might be" some errors in sequence. "Might" - yeah, right. Which sort is "better"? "Shell-Metzner" or "shaker"? From dmabry at mich.com Sat Apr 11 17:32:49 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:32:49 -0400 Subject: PLM86 compiler needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E11A91.7000705@mich.com> Jeff, Your requests all came through today. Don't know what was wrong with the list server, but at the same time I saw your request here I saw someone telling you that you have e-mail. My question is this. Do you still need the PLM-86 that runs under ISIS-II? If so, I can probably locate it. I'll have to serial transfer it from my MDS to a PC, so I don't want to do it if you already have it. Let me know if you still need it. Dave Jeff Erwin said the following on 4/6/2009 1:12 PM: > I purchased the Godbout 85/88 card for my Imsai 8080, seems to be working > fine so far, although > not at 5Mhz. I must have a memory card that can't handle the blazing 5 Mhz > access. > > I am looking for a PLM86 compiler. I have the PLM80 compiler and > linker/locator > (if anyone needs this, please let me know) but am struggling finding the > PLM86 > compiler and associated linker/locator. I am currently loading code into my > system via a HEX loader I wrote and sending the hex file in via the serial > port > from my Mac Pro (yes, a $5000 quad-processor computer serving as a dumb > terminal > to my 2Mhx 8080). > > I want to be able to write PLM86 code and do the same for the 8088 on the > GodBout card. > > Anyone know where I can find PLM86? > > Jeff Erwin > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 18:25:30 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:25:30 -0500 Subject: Tek 4000 graphics manuals for free Message-ID: Hi all, I went to a electronic store near Tek and found these gems if anybody wants them: 4501 Preliminary Service Manual 4050 Graphics System reference Manual T4002 Graphic Computer Terminal Specification Unless of course somebody has a 4051 the want to get rid of... How much? Randy _________________________________________________________________ Quick access to your favorite MSN content and Windows Live with Internet Explorer 8. http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx?ocid=B037MSN55C0701A From dmabry at mich.com Sat Apr 11 19:03:16 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:03:16 -0400 Subject: PLM86 compiler needed In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50904111542k49ca83fcpef12658e80ccd49e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> <49E11A91.7000705@mich.com> <7c7c96a50904111542k49ca83fcpef12658e80ccd49e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E12FC4.8020705@mich.com> Ok, I have found the 8" floppy disk with the ISIS-II PL/M-86 compiler on it. It is transferring at the blazing speed of 2400 bits/second using Kermit protocol into a PC. From that point I will be able to send it to a computer that sends my e-mails out. So we wait for 2400 bits/second to transfer the plm86 compiler with its overlay files. It really is slow. I love the technology, but it is slow! Stay Tuned for Updates! Jeff Erwin said the following on 4/11/2009 6:42 PM: > Yes, I do! Thanks! > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Dave Mabry > wrote: > > Jeff, > > Your requests all came through today. Don't know what was wrong > with the list server, but at the same time I saw your request here > I saw someone telling you that you have e-mail. > > My question is this. Do you still need the PLM-86 that runs under > ISIS-II? If so, I can probably locate it. I'll have to serial > transfer it from my MDS to a PC, so I don't want to do it if you > already have it. > > Let me know if you still need it. > > Dave > > Jeff Erwin said the following on 4/6/2009 1:12 PM: > > I purchased the Godbout 85/88 card for my Imsai 8080, seems to > be working > fine so far, although > not at 5Mhz. I must have a memory card that can't handle the > blazing 5 Mhz > access. > > I am looking for a PLM86 compiler. I have the PLM80 compiler and > linker/locator > (if anyone needs this, please let me know) but am struggling > finding the > PLM86 > compiler and associated linker/locator. I am currently loading > code into my > system via a HEX loader I wrote and sending the hex file in > via the serial > port > from my Mac Pro (yes, a $5000 quad-processor computer serving > as a dumb > terminal > to my 2Mhx 8080). > > I want to be able to write PLM86 code and do the same for the > 8088 on the > GodBout card. > > Anyone know where I can find PLM86? > > Jeff Erwin > > > > > > From dmabry at mich.com Sat Apr 11 20:22:01 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:22:01 -0400 Subject: PLM86 compiler needed In-Reply-To: <49E12FC4.8020705@mich.com> References: <7c7c96a50904061012r6f8f419lcb00b0e7e8175048@mail.gmail.com> <49E11A91.7000705@mich.com> <7c7c96a50904111542k49ca83fcpef12658e80ccd49e@mail.gmail.com> <49E12FC4.8020705@mich.com> Message-ID: <49E14239.8080703@mich.com> Version 2.1 of the cross-compiler that compiles PL/M-86 code on an 8080/8085-based development system running ISIS-II has been sent to Jeff. If there are others who would like it, see me or him directly. The old meets the new, and the old triumphs! Dave Mabry said the following on 4/11/2009 8:03 PM: > Ok, I have found the 8" floppy disk with the ISIS-II PL/M-86 compiler > on it. It is transferring at the blazing speed of 2400 bits/second > using Kermit protocol into a PC. From that point I will be able to > send it to a computer that sends my e-mails out. So we wait for 2400 > bits/second to transfer the plm86 compiler with its overlay files. It > really is slow. I love the technology, but it is slow! > > Stay Tuned for Updates! > > Jeff Erwin said the following on 4/11/2009 6:42 PM: >> Yes, I do! Thanks! >> >> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Dave Mabry > > wrote: >> >> Jeff, >> >> Your requests all came through today. Don't know what was wrong >> with the list server, but at the same time I saw your request here >> I saw someone telling you that you have e-mail. >> >> My question is this. Do you still need the PLM-86 that runs under >> ISIS-II? If so, I can probably locate it. I'll have to serial >> transfer it from my MDS to a PC, so I don't want to do it if you >> already have it. >> >> Let me know if you still need it. >> >> Dave >> >> Jeff Erwin said the following on 4/6/2009 1:12 PM: >> >> I purchased the Godbout 85/88 card for my Imsai 8080, seems to >> be working >> fine so far, although >> not at 5Mhz. I must have a memory card that can't handle the >> blazing 5 Mhz >> access. >> >> I am looking for a PLM86 compiler. I have the PLM80 compiler and >> linker/locator >> (if anyone needs this, please let me know) but am struggling >> finding the >> PLM86 >> compiler and associated linker/locator. I am currently loading >> code into my >> system via a HEX loader I wrote and sending the hex file in >> via the serial >> port >> from my Mac Pro (yes, a $5000 quad-processor computer serving >> as a dumb >> terminal >> to my 2Mhx 8080). >> >> I want to be able to write PLM86 code and do the same for the >> 8088 on the >> GodBout card. >> >> Anyone know where I can find PLM86? >> >> Jeff Erwin >> >> >> >> >> > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 11 21:35:25 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: LIST ADMIN Message-ID: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Greetings Folks! As many of you noticed almost a year ago, we started having issues with the classiccmp server. Some of these were hardware issues, some software, etc. Due to the extreme generosity of Al Kossow, a new server was recently provided for the list. It is a very nice 2U dual cpu 2.2ghz opteron with 4gb ram, dual gigabit ethernet, and six 300gb hot swap ata drives. Two of the drives are mirrored (gmirror) and hold the OS (freebsd 7.1) & software. Of the remaining drives, 3 are in a zfs raid5 pool and one drive is a hot spare. These drives hold the websites, ftp sites, mailing list data, etc. Over the past few weeks I've been working to migrate all the classiccmp-related websites that I host on the server to the new machine. Last I did the classiccmp.org website (which means the archives were unavailable for a week or two as they existed {and were still being updated} on the old server). A day or two later I migrated the archives and finally yesterday - the list itself. To the best of my knowledge, all should be up and running well. There is *STILL* a problem with the htdig indexing of the lists. I am going to finally dedicate some time to researching that. I've been putting it off for eons because I've mostly forgotten everything I used to know about HtDig. I still have to do a little work to get metrics back up, unfortunately my favorite tool (mod_watch {interfaced with cacti}) is no longer supported so I may be looking for a new tool along those lines to implement. If you have suggestions, please email me off-list, I don't want to start a long off-topic discussion of modern hosting tools. I would like to post a list of all the classiccmp-related websites, ftp sites, etc. that are lurking on the server, as I suspect some are not commonly known. Everyone who has things hosted on the classiccmp server is aware of it - so if you object to me posting your URL please email me within the next few days and let me know and I'll omit your site. I'd like to take this time to re-iterate my offer to host any classic computer related websites, ftpsites, mailing lists, wiki's, blogs, etc. at no charge. I don't want to run the site, I just provide free hosting and bandwidth - the site is still yours. The server is in a world class datacenter with serious bandwidth - not on a DSL line in a basement or anything :) Along those lines, several people recently asked to move their classic computing sites to the server and I asked them to wait till the new server was up. We have gobs of free disk and the machine is reliable now, so re-contact me and we'll get it up and running. My classiccmp email address got to a half gig, it will be a long, long time before I skim through it. However, I have put it into a different mailbox so I can definitely see any new emails to my classiccmp address and will keep on top of those. Or attempt to :) I am trying to get back to things classiccmp related - as well as actively reading the list again instead of just watching the server. I departed for a while due mostly to classiccmplist-burnout and "work stuff". The work stuff has mostly settled down, and I find myself very much wanting to dig back into my beloved DG's, HP's, and yes, even the DEC's My last acquisition was an excellent Data General Dasher D200 terminal, which will look awesome sitting next to the Eclipse S/130. Next project is to make room for a metric boatload of 800/1200 DG minis and get them here instead of storage. Glad to see all the familiar faces, as well as some new ones. Best regards, Jay West From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 11 21:34:24 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> from Jay West at "Apr 11, 9 09:35:25 pm" Message-ID: <200904120234.n3C2YOHG020540@floodgap.com> > Glad to see all the familiar faces, as well as some new ones. Best regards, Jay, thanks for all the hard work you do for the list and the hobby. It does not go unappreciated. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Obscenity is the last refuge of a weak mind. -- Bonnie Fortney ------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 21:55:53 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:55:53 -0400 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Due to the extreme generosity of Al Kossow, a new server was recently > provided for the list.... > > Over the past few weeks I've been working to migrate all the > classiccmp-related websites that I host on the server to the new machine.... Thanks, Jay, for all the hard work; and thanks, Al, for the material support for the list (on top of all the other great things you do)! -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 11 22:59:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:59:28 -0700 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <49E104B0.19395.2B8F505@cclist.sydex.com> Good work, Jay--and thanks, Al! --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 11 23:23:18 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 11, 9 10:55:53 pm" Message-ID: <200904120423.n3C4NI5Z020062@floodgap.com> > Thanks, Jay, for all the hard work; and thanks, Al, for the material > support for the list (on top of all the other great things you do)! Good grief, I forgot Al. Thanks, Al! *hides under desk* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computer geeks don't byte; we just nybble. --------------------------------- From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Apr 11 23:29:23 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:29:23 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090411152018.W90442@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20090411152018.W90442@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200904120029.23920.rtellason@verizon.net> > Example: The library is doing a "retrospective conversion" of its card > catalog to an OPAC ("Online Public Access Catalog"). The cards are > mechanically scanned. They are nominally in order, however, due to being > handled by humans, a lot, there "might be" some errors in sequence. > "Might" - yeah, right. Which sort is "better"? "Shell-Metzner" or > "shaker"? Shell-Metzner I've at least heard of, but not that other one. I would suppose that this stuff is covered in some texts (that I don't happen to have), but do you know offhand if it's online anyplace? I'm still working on getting a better understanding of all of this stuff... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Apr 11 23:34:09 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:34:09 -0400 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <200904120034.09814.rtellason@verizon.net> Let me add my thanks to those that have already been posted, and also let me say that I appreciate the update on what's been going on, etc. The hiccups had me mildly curious. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Apr 11 23:59:38 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:59:38 -0700 Subject: LIST ADMIN References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <001f01c9bb2b$7b7d3200$0201a8c0@hal9000> op.cit. Thanks guys !! Best regards, Steven Subject: Re: LIST ADMIN > On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Due to the extreme generosity of Al Kossow, a new server was recently > > provided for the list.... > > > > Over the past few weeks I've been working to migrate all the > > classiccmp-related websites that I host on the server to the new machine.... > > Thanks, Jay, for all the hard work; and thanks, Al, for the material > support for the list (on top of all the other great things you do)! > > -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 12 00:02:47 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:02:47 -0700 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: At 9:35 PM -0500 4/11/09, Jay West wrote: >server). A day or two later I migrated the archives and finally >yesterday - the list itself. To the best of my knowledge, all should >be up and running Thanks for all your hard work Jay! Amazingly I actually noticed the list was down yesterday. Normally it can be down for days before I have time to notice. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun Apr 12 00:10:44 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:10:44 -0700 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002501c9bb2d$08db4500$0201a8c0@hal9000> Keith, If you took the way-back machine to the 1980s, the Holy Grail would have to be " The Art Of Electronics " by Horowitz & Hill ( ISBN: 0 521 37095 7 ). It is also a favorite of some others on this list ( like Tony ). I cannot think of a better single source of technical information. I got mine used on Amazon for a song. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith" Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books > I'm interested to learn the titles of some standard reference books on > electronic and microcomputer design from the early 1980's. I've been > reverse engineering many aspects of the Commodore Amiga. While I have a > decent library of Amiga books, I'd like to expand the collection to > include the "de facto standard" reference texts of the day --- to give > me more of an insight into the minds of the designers. > > If you could go back, what books would you find on the bookshelves of > these engineers? If you graduated college or a technical school in > 1980, what were the popular reference texts used? > > Thanks > > Keith From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Apr 12 00:20:52 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 01:20:52 -0400 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <002501c9bb2d$08db4500$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> <002501c9bb2d$08db4500$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200904120120.52308.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 12 April 2009 01:10:44 am Scanning wrote: > Keith, > > If you took the way-back machine to the 1980s, the Holy Grail would have to > be " The Art Of Electronics " by Horowitz & Hill ( ISBN: 0 521 37095 7 ). > It is also a favorite of some others on this list ( like Tony ). I cannot > think of a better single source of technical information. I got mine used > on Amazon for a song. > > Best regards, Steven That one's been on my list for a while, I should check there and see if there's a relatively inexpensive copy... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith" > Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books > > > I'm interested to learn the titles of some standard reference books on > > electronic and microcomputer design from the early 1980's. I've been > > reverse engineering many aspects of the Commodore Amiga. While I have a > > decent library of Amiga books, I'd like to expand the collection to > > include the "de facto standard" reference texts of the day --- to give > > me more of an insight into the minds of the designers. > > > > If you could go back, what books would you find on the bookshelves of > > these engineers? If you graduated college or a technical school in > > 1980, what were the popular reference texts used? > > > > Thanks > > > > Keith One of my "back burner" projects that I hope to get around to one of these days is a web page featuring a whole bunch of pdf-format "tech books" including some really early stuff, some of which has gone into the public domain. I've started to collect a bit of it, but having the time to get it all organized and categorized and building a web page around it are still in the future. Sometime not too far off, I hope... Early 80s is fine, too, if there's electronic versions of that stuff floating around. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sat Apr 11 05:22:05 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:22:05 +0200 Subject: Large cache of classic computer in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ume=E5=2C_Sw?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?eden?= Message-ID: <49E06F4D.9090005@acc.umu.se> Hi List! I'm helping a friend to empty a storage which he has to have empty by the end of the month so time is short. This message is a mix between "look what I've got" and "Help, need a good home for this lot". I'm taking over a large part of this collection but I can only take care of the most precious computers. The contents of the storage is a lot of personal stuff and other random objects, but he also collects old computers with focus on Norsk Data machines. More or less of what we can see so far, this is the major parts... - ND-5700, two full rack, one complete, one missing a CPU. I'll take care of this system. - ND-Filestore, disks and tape. I'll take this one too - ND-110 Compact, 4 machines. I'll save all and reserve one for my self. - ND-110 Satellite, about 10 machines. I'll try to save all, reserving one or two myself. - ND-Butterfly, 2-3 machines, all spoken for. - A huge stash of manuals. Will be saved and scanned. A lot of doubles exists. See the list at http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/Virtual_library#ND_Library_Teg_in_Ume.C3.A5 - ND-Notis terminals. (Nokia VT220 terminals). Circa 80 terminals. Only a few are spoken for, anything left near the end of the month will go into the dumpster. :-( - NEC Monograph, new systems in boxes 4-6 systems, complete with graphics controller and all. For running DTP under Win 3.0/3.1, monochrome monitor Maybe two spoken for. - A lot of Archie computer laptop parts, 286. - ISA IDE controllers, new in box. approximately 30 cards. - Some IBM system 3 manuals, RPG2 - ... plus a lot more that I can't remember right now. We have found a number of other computers among all the scrap, some really nice ones. I liked the ABC 1600, an unix machine made by Luxor with a twistable screen with white phosphor. But those computers are going to remain in my friends custody. If time permits we could send stuff by mail or in some other way. We might store some stuff if we know we could ship it off after the move but this month will take all our time just to clear space and move the bigger machines around. Local pickup is preferred and will get priority over any shipping. My phone number is int+46 (0)73 98 67 881. /G?ran From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 11 07:49:01 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:49:01 -0400 Subject: [FS] university surplus Message-ID: <0KHX00298SWR3Q9G@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: [FS] university surplus > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 08:53:52 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi > >A guy popped up on the vintage computer forums advertising his ebay >sales of surplus items. Some nice DEC and Sun gear: > >http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=14859 > >The PDT-11 caught my eye, what is that thing? Some kind of micro-11 > >Cheers, >Pontus. In one word Yes. PDT-11 is one of three possible configurations The most popular is the PDT-11/150 with is a box with 2 8" floppies (rx01 equivilent) that can run RT11 (cpu is LSI-11 + up to 28KW of ram and up to 6 serial ports). Next most common is PDT11/130 which is a Vt100 with base PDT11 CPU but instead of Floppies it has a parallel interface TU-58 dectape mounted. Each tapes are 256kb so it can store the same as RX01 Floppy and it can run RT11, but tape IO is SLOW. Least common was the PDT11/110 with is the Vt100 with bast PDT11 cpu but NO local storage device. The expectation with this is to remotely load it with MOP protocal from a host. Allison From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Apr 11 09:46:59 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 09:46:59 -0500 Subject: Which way to go, from now on? References: Message-ID: <00c501c9bab4$5e853e80$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 10:48:30 -0500 > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > Subject: Re: Which way to go, from now on? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <49C65DCE.20701 at brutman.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Coding ... > > Getting a development environment setup for a machine can be fairly > intensive. Especially if the machine had a few vendors that provided > environments. Once you are setup, nothing teaches you more about the > machine than trying to wring something useful out of it. ;-0 > > My favorite example .. the TCP/IP stack that I wrote for DOS. It is > part of a long process to put a BBS on my PCjr. I missed the > opportunity 20 years ago to have a dialup BBS, so I'm making up for it > with a multi-user Telnet BBS. > > Getting the development environment setup, writing code that works and > is stable, and wringing the performance out of it has put me a lot > closer to the machine that just powering it on once in a while. Given > your collection, you could spend a few lifetimes doing software. > > > Mike As an oldtimer trying to teach myself more about TCP/IP, it has occurred to me to wonder whether a similar project might just be the best way to truly understand the protocols. I think it is probably best that I continue working my way through Stevens' and Snader's books first though. Later, Charlie C. From jrr at flippers.com Sat Apr 11 16:08:11 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:08:11 -0700 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49E106BB.3030503@flippers.com> Keith wrote: > I'm interested to learn the titles of some standard reference books on > electronic and microcomputer design from the early 1980's. I've been > reverse engineering many aspects of the Commodore Amiga. While I have > a decent library of Amiga books, I'd like to expand the collection to > include the "de facto standard" reference texts of the day --- to give > me more of an insight into the minds of the designers. > > I've read some "history of the amiga" columns, "Life on the edge", > various interviews and so on. > > If you could go back, what books would you find on the bookshelves of > these engineers? If you graduated college or a technical school in > 1980, what were the popular reference texts used? > > 68000 reference books? > 6800 reference books? > standard information on bus arbitration, or memory controllers, or > maybe LSI chip layout? > standard OS design practices? > > I know I'm all over the place. > > I've started playing with FPGA's and while I'm wholly unqualified to > be doing so, I'm enjoying it --- but would like to understand how this > stuff was done prior to the modern age. It's like learning the > command line first, so that when the gui-front end comes, you know > what's happening in the back. > > Thanks > > Keith > > P.S. I'd almost be willing to bet there is one or two books called > "contemporary microcomputer design" or "contemporary electronic > design" both with a copyright date of 1980. I could be wrong. :) > > Hmm, my library beside me coughs up the following books: Harry Garland "Introduction To Microprocessor System Design" 1979 Texas Instruments "Designing with TTL Integrated Circuits" 1971 (a bit too old perhaps) Mostek "1978 Memory Databook & Designers Guide" (not CPUs, but VERY handy for old RAM/ROM) Ferroxcube "Linear Ferrite Materials & Components" (undated! - 1960s? 50s?) 1st edition - core memory. (am I going a bit too far back here?) Intel "MCS-80 User's Manual" 1980 (better) "An Introduction To Microcomputers Volume 2" (& 3) Osborne & Associates, Inc. (1978) a real bible for CPUs and support devices! Oh, I guess another 50 or so similar books. (TTL Cookbooks, IC Timer Cookbook, Semiconductor Handbook 1968,...) I hang on to these so I can fix the early solid state games... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From oldcomputers at oldcomputers.net Sat Apr 11 17:07:50 2009 From: oldcomputers at oldcomputers.net (Sysop) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple (Macs, etc) available in south Florida Message-ID: <964377.19713.qm@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> -------------------------------------------------------- I do not own this equipment, please contact Alice below: -------------------------------------------------------- I live in South Florida, have some old Mac equipment - MacPlus, Quadra, etc. Syquest drive and tapes. I may be running out of room to keep them. Is there a collector in my area? Alice Silver -------------------------------------------------------- I do not own this equipment, please contact Alice above: -------------------------------------------------------- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 20:06:33 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II Questions Message-ID: I just won an 820-II on eBay, but the seller lost the external drive box (hard disk + 8" floppy). Judging by the schematic, it should be very straightforward to interface one of my floppy drives to it (I have a bunch of Shugart, Seimens and Tandon units). The hard drive I'm less sure about. Looks like a proprietary interface of some sort. Can anyone tell me more about it? Does anyone have a spare 820-II drive enclosure they'd like to part with? Lastly, will Imagedisk support creation of a system disk on an 8" drive attached to a Compaticard IV? Steve -- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Apr 12 01:04:28 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cromemco 68000 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <498669.68651.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 2009, Randy Dawson wrote: > If there is a demand for these, say 20 or so, I will make them if you > guys have the schematic. > > a whole lot cheaper than the >$200 that one went for too. > > Bare boards or kits > > I assume you have the rom image I believe the usual places have the full manuals and schematics. This got me to thinking... How delightfully perverse it would be to create an S100-based Macintosh... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 12 01:30:18 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:30:18 -0600 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <002501c9bb2d$08db4500$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> <002501c9bb2d$08db4500$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <49E18A7A.7060807@jetnet.ab.ca> Scanning wrote: > Keith, > > If you took the way-back machine to the 1980s, the Holy Grail would have to > be " The Art Of Electronics " by Horowitz & Hill ( ISBN: 0 521 37095 7 ). It > is also a favorite of some others on this list ( like Tony ). I cannot think > of a better single source of technical information. I got mine used on > Amazon for a song. > I think the first edition was better than the second. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 12 01:34:36 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:34:36 -0600 Subject: Cromemco 68000 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <498669.68651.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E18B7C.5040205@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > I believe the usual places have the full manuals and schematics. This > got me to thinking... How delightfully perverse it would be to create > an S100-based Macintosh... I am not sure what the memory size for the 16 bit extended S-100 bus was but I am sure a classic 128K ram mac would fit nicely on the bus. ( Ignoring all the dirty little tricks the Mac could have used for I/O and display logic). From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 12 03:54:00 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 01:54:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for Compaq LTE (8088) power supply or voltages... Message-ID: <49E1AC28.6070102@mail.msu.edu> I've got an old Compaq LTE (I believe it's the original 8088 variant, but I can't find a model # on it anywhere) that I'm trying to recover some files from for a friend. The power supply is long gone. The hard drive is certainly some proprietary interface, so I'd prefer to try to get the laptop running before I try to take it apart and read the drive in something else. Anyone have a power supply for one of these, or know what voltages it takes? (It has a 4-pin power connector, don't know if this style of connector has a name...) Thanks, Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 12 06:27:34 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 07:27:34 -0400 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <49E1D026.9040603@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > > >>Due to the extreme generosity of Al Kossow, a new server was recently >>provided for the list.... >> >>Over the past few weeks I've been working to migrate all the >>classiccmp-related websites that I host on the server to the new machine.... >> >> > >Thanks, Jay, for all the hard work; and thanks, Al, for the material >support for the list (on top of all the other great things you do)! > > I add my thanks to both Jay and Al. This list really is unique. Jerome Fine From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 12 06:38:32 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 07:38:32 -0400 Subject: Progression of search technology (was Re: The lost art) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090412113832.5FB41BA50C1@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Fred Cisin writes > You don't think agree that even the theoretician should understand that > some algorithms can take advantage of existing order and end early, while > others are a fixed duration? > > > Example: The library is doing a "retrospective conversion" of its card > catalog to an OPAC ("Online Public Access Catalog"). The cards are > mechanically scanned. They are nominally in order, however, due to being > handled by humans, a lot, there "might be" some errors in sequence. > "Might" - yeah, right. Which sort is "better"? "Shell-Metzner" or > "shaker"? In the past couple years Google and Amazon return search results to not just the title or author, but the text in the book if it has been OCR'ed or was originally electronic. Obviously Google knows a lot about efficient free-text searching but other folks know it too. In the past 15 or 20 or maybe even 30 or 40 years in the right circles (I do not hang around in database circles! But I was using Rdb a while back) the catalog would be loaded straight to an indexed database with several keys arranged for easy alphabetical sorting. The indexed database might even be smart enough to allow free-text or associative searching through some clever trickery. Even if there wasn't an index on the field we wanted to sort on there's probably the SQL "ORDER BY (whatever)" keyword. I will admit that databases can do some spectacularly slow things if you build your indices wrong, and even the most expensive version of Oracle can suddenly become much slower than an Apple II running a linear search on a cassette-tape file in the hands of the clueless. In the past 10 years or so, I'd just say (in Perl) "sort keys %hash". Surprisingly until fairly recently this could, worst case, be a quadratic sort but they recently put some tricks in (preshuffling) so this will basically never happen. If I was interviewing a recent CS graduate I would expect him to not address the problem of a card catalog index by talking only about sorting, I'd expect him to know some of the newer technologies - databases with keys; maybe even knowing about hashes if I ask about how a database implements an index; possibly knowing about the indexing technolgies allowing free-text searches. If he started talking about bubble vs shell sort I would go "OK, you got the points for knowing about sorting, now teach me about this new stuff" about 10 words in. If I wanted to know what he knew about how algorithmic complexity I'd ask him about bogosort which probably they didn't teach him about in school, but would give him a leg up if he had been reading or maybe even contributing to the Jargon File for the past few decades. If a candidate agreed with me that buying Oracle got the governor of California fired, I'd hire him on the spot. If I had a new hire and I saw him writing any sort algorithm, I'd teach him how to do it by using one already built into the system. Tim. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 12 07:01:51 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:01:51 -0400 Subject: dumb rx01 image question In-Reply-To: <49C35537.6090602@softjar.se> References: <200903200658.n2K6rjbt028193@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49C35537.6090602@softjar.se> Message-ID: <49E1D82F.8010704@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >Paul Koning wrote: > >> Don> The 'even/odd-skew-by-6' algorithm mentioned in a previous email >> Don> is what I found works for XXDP. It is probably the DEC >> Don> 'standard' for RX01/02 drivers. >> >> I would assume that is the case. I found it in a RSTS driver, and >> the that that two very different systems share a mapping function >> suggests it's a DEC standard. (DEC certainly tended to standardize >> this sort of thing company-wide.) > > Yeah. I can report that RSX do the same skewing/interleaving as well. > > And to make the point even clearer to the original poster: this is not > something simh is aware of, or involved in. This is a mapping > algorithm done by the PDP-11 in software (in the driver). So it > definitely applies in this case. Just to round out the discussion, the identical concept is part of the code in RT-11, specifically DX.MAC and DY.MAC, which are the RX01 and RX02 device drivers, respectively. While I never had a reason to look closely at the DXX.SYS device driver, I did modify the DYX.SYS or RX02 device driver. The interleaving is primarily required to allow time for the hardware to transfer the silo to the user buffer and then initiate the next read. Otherwise, it would be possible to read only one sector per revolution of the floppy media. However, there is an 18 bit hardware address limitation for the DEC RX02 drive in addition to other RX02 compatible drives such as the DSD (Data System Design) models. This means that the DEC version of the DYX.SYS device driver is able to support user buffers only up the 1/4 MegaByte of physical memory. Up to V04.00 of RT-11, this was sufficient. Starting with V05.00 of RT-11, the full 4 MegaBytes of physical memory was supported by RT-11 and a user buffer in an area of physical memory beyond 1/4 MegaByte could not use the DEC device driver for the RX02. On the other hand, DYX.SYS can be modified to include a bounce buffer which can be used to hold the contents of the hardware silo for the very short period of time required, although the speed of the PDP-11/23 is not fast enough to support the bounce buffer by a simple transfer of the silo to the bounce buffer followed by a copy of the bounce buffer to the user buffer at an address above 1/4 MegaByte of physical memory. I found this out when it became obvious (after a successful test with the PDP-11/73) when the transfer rate slowed by an unacceptable degree. The simple solution was to initiate the next read into the silo immediately after the contents of the silo were transferred to the bounce buffer and then copy the bounce buffer to the user buffer. That change in the order allowed the PDP-11/23 to keep up with the transfer using the standard interleave. I doubt that anyone uses the RX02 very much under RT-11 on real hardware, but the code is available if anyone has a user program which uses extended memory above 1/4 MegaByte and employs the RX02 DYX.SYS device driver. Note that the bounce buffer and the extra code are both in lower memory since I never used it enough to make it worth my while to take advantage of extended memory below the 1/4 MegaByte area. I have not tested the code under either SIMH or E11, but it should work there just as well. Just a bit of information about using the RX02 DYX.SYS device driver under RT-11. Jerome Fine From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 12 09:57:26 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:57:26 -0500 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> <49E106BB.3030503@flippers.com> Message-ID: <00c601c9bb7e$ff229660$c900a8c0@JWEST> Regarding defacto texts: >> standard OS design practices? Data Structures & Logic - Reingold & Hansen Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools - Aho & Sethi (aka, The Dragon Book) Jay From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 12 10:30:42 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TeleBit modem.. Message-ID: I've got a Telebit T2500 modem with a manual but no power supply. I also have a Penril Alliance .v32 modem with manual, no supply. If interested, email me off list. Thnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From slawmaster at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 10:30:16 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:30:16 -0400 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <00c601c9bb7e$ff229660$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> <49E106BB.3030503@flippers.com> <00c601c9bb7e$ff229660$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <7d3530220904120830s7f31a9fas9c585ab58e512985@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Jay West wrote: > Regarding defacto texts: >>> >>> standard OS design practices? > > Data Structures & Logic - Reingold & Hansen > Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools - Aho & Sethi (aka, The Dragon > Book) > > Jay To add: Kernighan and Pike's "Practice of Programming" is just generally good for programming, and since it uses C it's particularly applicable to OS design My OS class used Silberschatz, Galvin, and Gagne "Operating System Concepts", but I've also read a bit of Deitel's "Operating Systems" and Tanenbaum's "Modern Operating Systems". "Design of Digital Computers" by Gschwind is very detailed down to the lowest levels, but since it was published in 1967 there is a lot of information that is of interest historically but not for any modern work--ex: core memory. John Floren -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 10:33:17 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:33:17 +0200 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <00c601c9bb7e$ff229660$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> <49E106BB.3030503@flippers.com> <00c601c9bb7e$ff229660$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: Computation Structures, Stephen Ward, MIT press, ISBN 0070681481 COMPUTER STRUCTURES: Principles and Examples, Daniel P., C. Gordon Bell, and Allen Newell. Sieworekwhich is online there : http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Computer_Structures_Principles_and_Examples/ -- Stephane Paris, France. From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Apr 12 10:45:41 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:45:41 -0400 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <49E20CA5.4040400@comcast.net> Jay West wrote: > Greetings Folks! > > Due to the extreme generosity of Al Kossow, a new server was recently > provided for the list. thanks for great job your doing Jay and also to Al for the generous donation. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 12 11:28:19 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:28:19 -0600 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904120830s7f31a9fas9c585ab58e512985@mail.gmail.com> References: <49CB0412.3090704@verizon.net> <49E106BB.3030503@flippers.com> <00c601c9bb7e$ff229660$c900a8c0@JWEST> <7d3530220904120830s7f31a9fas9c585ab58e512985@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E216A3.4000908@jetnet.ab.ca> John Floren wrote: > "Design of Digital Computers" by Gschwind is very detailed down to the > lowest levels, but since it was published in 1967 there is a lot of > information that is of interest historically but not for any modern > work--ex: core memory. I suspect other than 8 bit micros that tend to have 64K Dram, 50% of the puters have core memory here. ;) > John Floren From js at cimmeri.com Sun Apr 12 11:28:23 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:28:23 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. Message-ID: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> I'd very much like to learn and use CPM-68K, as well translate my 8080 CBIOS to it to contribute back to the public. If anyone has a DPU they'd like to sell or trade, please email me at js at cimmeri.com. Thank you. From stekster at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 12:44:18 2009 From: stekster at gmail.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:44:18 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 68, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c9bb96$4f2baa40$ed82fec0$@com> I may be mistaken, but I believe that the Palantir board was one designed by our own Jim Battle, if it is what I think it is - a board for OCR. (Back in 1987 I used the stand-alone Palantir OCR machine - a cheaper $25,000(?) alternative to the Kurzweil unit - to scan in 1100+ pages of all the Sherlock Holmes stories. It used 5 68000 CPU's and 2 MBs of ROM IIRC.) Any comments, Jim? Bob Stek Former Saver of Lost Sols Message: 5 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:02:46 -0600 From: Mike Maginnis Subject: A few free items A few items to give away. I came across a box of stuff as I was cleaning out the server room. Might be of interest to someone, might not. I'd prefer local pickup (Denver, CO area), but could be persuaded to ship if you cover S/H. * Unknown board from "The Palantir Corporation" (c) 1988 - has a Motorola 68020. 16-bit ISA. Maybe a co-processor board? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 12:06:27 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:06:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 11, 9 09:31:17 pm Message-ID: > > Nice work ! > I've some 125/120 Software and some doc's (some Dutch (translated from I have nothing so far, but I'll download at least the OS from the museum site. I have both 82901 and 9121 drives here, so Icould use either version. > english)) > Most of the software is on the hpmuseum website to, but I also have the > technical system manual for HP150 (got it this week ;-) with all the > diagrams of the HP150 and the HP150-II . Yes, I have that manual -- it's a darn thick book. It's also remarkably hard to find, so take care of it (Actually, I suspect the PortablePlus Techref -- not the sevice manual -- is even harder to find. I have both of those too...) The HP150 manual's schematics are alas, not complete. For the HP150, there's nothing on the PSU, and nothing on the internal printer. And you'll spend some time piecing them together to work out just what's on each PCB and how they connect. For the HP150-II, there's nothing on the sweep/PSU board, the touchscreen or keyboard (both HP-HIL devices of course). Yes I might get round to remedying that sometime... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 12:53:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:53:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: <200904120120.52308.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Apr 12, 9 01:20:52 am Message-ID: > > If you took the way-back machine to the 1980s, the Holy Grail would have to > > be " The Art Of Electronics " by Horowitz & Hill ( ISBN: 0 521 37095 7 ). > > It is also a favorite of some others on this list ( like Tony ). I cannot > > think of a better single source of technical information. I got mine used > > on Amazon for a song. > > > > Best regards, Steven > > That one's been on my list for a while, I should check there and see if > there's a relatively inexpensive copy... While this is a somewhat expensive book if bought full-price, I think it's good value. It's packed full of useful information, it's clearly written, and 'pracitcal' I have both 1st and 2nd edition and don't regret uying them Also consider the companion 'Student Manual' which is basically a course of practical electronic experiments (from the properties of resistors to making a microcomputer system!). Again a lot of useful stuff in there. -tony From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Apr 12 12:59:09 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need packing/shipping help from Land O' Lakes, Florida Message-ID: Is anyone available to pack and ship a MacTV from Land O' Lakes, Florida? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 12 14:00:30 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:00:30 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that is a printer that is worth keeping. Especially with the Jet Direct card. As for the toner cartridge .... you can get one on E-Bay for probably $20 to $30, or you can get refill toner with instructions for under $20. Barry Watzman Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 From: Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with 10mb Jet-Direct Card? Curt From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 12 14:03:24 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:03:24 -0400 Subject: Laserjet 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: "Glad to hear you're keeping your trusty LaserJet 4 - those are really great printers. And, on the plus side ....." Ah, the Laserjet 4+ is an even better version ........ :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 12 14:24:34 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:24:34 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: Re: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY > > Now that is a printer that is worth keeping. Especially with the Jet > Direct > card. As for the toner cartridge .... you can get one on E-Bay for > probably > $20 to $30, or you can get refill toner with instructions for under $20. > > Barry Watzman > > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 > From: Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum > Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY > > Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with 10mb Jet-Direct Card? > > Curt > If you look long enough you can find toner cheaper then that. I snagged one for $11 ($10 shipping plus .99 for the win) on ebay and it was a new one from HP for the 4SI never openeded. I didn't know HP had a prepaid UPS return lable for the old toners included for recycling. You can get toner refills super cheap as well, that is what I did for my NEC Superscript 870 last year and it still prints fine. I have the apple localtalk, ethernet, parallel card installed plus the tokenring card for when I get around to figuring out Novell Netware 4.11. TZ From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 14:28:35 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:28:35 -0400 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net> <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <49E240E3.8070207@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly have >> learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually >> "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an optimized >> "bubble" is better for. > > I'm not sure a CS graduate _should_. That's less an aspect of the > theoretical discipline CS is than of the correpsnoding practical > discipline (programming, software engineering, pick your favourite term > for it). Learning about the difference between shellsort's complexity > and bubblesort's and heapsort's is important. But I'm not sure I'd > expect a theoretician to correctly choose the right one for any > particular application. As far as I can tell, that would be exactly the right type of problem for a theoretician. It's a pretty straight comparison of the average-case and best-case big-O. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 12 16:03:26 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. In-Reply-To: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> References: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20090412140247.H28688@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > I'd very much like to learn and use CPM-68K, Has anybody installed it on a Mac? From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Apr 12 16:29:09 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:29:09 -0400 Subject: Looking for Tek 1240/1241 ground leads... In-Reply-To: <49DC0191.2010301@mail.msu.edu> References: <49DC0191.2010301@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49E25D25.9090203@comcast.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > I picked up a nice Tektronix 1241 logic probe to help me debug my old > computers, and I have everything I need (4 6460 pods, 1 6462, a few > flying lead sets, some grabbers, etc...) except ground leads (Tek PN > 344-0267-00). Anyone out there have any to spare? Any suggestions > for good places to find accessories for old logic analyzers like this > (my Google searches keep turning up sites that want $400 for a probe > and don't even have anything in stock...) Josh, I'm hoping to find some accessories for my Tek 1240 logic analyzer too. I have 3x 6444 logic pods and 1x PM403 6502 disassembly pod. I like to find some more probe leads which attach to the 10pin idc connectors on the logic pods. I had to hack some together on my own for the remainder of channels on this. I like to find some more logic pods and disassembly pods for the various processors. If you hear of any place, please forward the link. thanks, =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 12 16:52:17 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <200904120029.23920.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20090411152018.W90442@shell.lmi.net> <200904120029.23920.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090412141750.Y28688@shell.lmi.net> > > Example: The library is doing a "retrospective conversion" of its card > > catalog to an OPAC ("Online Public Access Catalog"). The cards are > > mechanically scanned. They are nominally in order, however, due to being > > handled by humans, a lot, there "might be" some errors in sequence. > > "Might" - yeah, right. Which sort is "better"? "Shell-Metzner" or > > "shaker"? On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Shell-Metzner I've at least heard of, but not that other one. I would > suppose that this stuff is covered in some texts (that I don't happen to > have), but do you know offhand if it's online anyplace? I'm still working > on getting a better understanding of all of this stuff... Good. I'd hate to meet anybody who thinks that they already understand ALL of it! Try page 110 of Knuth's "Sorting and Searching" (Volume 3 of "Art of Programming" ISBN 0-201-03803-X) Rather oversimplified: Take a plain bubble sort; add a conditional test to end early if NO changes were made during a pass. Modify the end points of the passes, so that it doesn't bother going back through territory that has already achieved final order. So far, that is just optimizing the bubble sort algorithm. Now modify it so that it alternates the passes between going left to right and going right to left. THAT is a "Shaker Sort". It is just one variety of "Bubble Sort", and for worst case scenario (and almost as bad with truly random data), it could end up needing N-1 passes, with an average of N/2 (approx) comparisons in each pass, which is TERRIBLE performance. BUT, . . . if the data happens to already be in order, it will require ONE pass with N-1 comparisons, V Shell-Metzner still going through the same amount of work as for random data. Shaker will require a maximum of one more pass than the number of elements that are out of order. That ability to take advantage of existing order can be rather important in the real world. In addition to data that is partially in order, many managers who ought to know better, instead of merging data sets will append a small amount of new data to the end of a sorted data set and then "sort" to put it back into order. For a basic Bubble sort, that provides WORST CASE, with N-1 passes of ~N/2 comparisons per pass. Swapping endpoints so that the passes go right to left instead of left to right, immediately reduces it from N-1 passes to the maximum nuber of passes being the count of new data elements added. In an analogous situation, a compression algorithm that takes into account the type of data being compressed might outperform an algorithm that is theoretically significantly "better" for "random" data. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 12 17:11:18 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:11:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Midwest Gaming Classic Roundup In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0903241830m5cdcebd6g56edc080844514d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <358977.56962.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Loads of cool pics. It's great seeing all those old consoles which I have only heard of by name. I am largely a fan of Sega and Nintendo consoles, and I could see most of their main ones were present :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 25/3/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: From: Martin Goldberg Subject: Midwest Gaming Classic Roundup To: cctech at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 25 March, 2009, 1:30 AM Just a followup to my announcement post, the MGC came and went and was a huge success. 22,000 sq ft packed to the rim of computing, console, video arcade and pinball, so much so we're moving to a new located next year that'll give us around 30,000 sq ft. Here's my photo galleries: Vending Hall http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615745200729/ Coin-ops http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615745260231/ Competition Area http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615745281965/ Museum http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615834963880/ Underdog Chamber http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615746538685/ Family Game Room http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615835258766/ VGEVO http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615746725067/ Ben Heckendorn Experience http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615835307612/ Some Speakers http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615835542568/ People At The Show http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615746879399/ You'll notice the museum area had a decent vintage personal computer contingent, with people coming to represent Commodore, Texas Instruments, and Tandy/CoCo computers (all the others are mine). Once again, I'm extending the offer for collectors from here to take part and show of their equipment. I'd also be happy to host the VCF Midwest there next year as well, we have the space, and the people (I'm estimating attendance at about 4,000 unofficially for this year's show). And I love to promote our hobby any way I can. Marty From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sun Apr 12 20:03:15 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:03:15 -0400 Subject: laser scope In-Reply-To: <200903232033.QAA02457@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200903232033.QAA02457@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Yes, but mechanically moved mirrors aren't the only option for beam > deflection. I seem to recall reading of a crystal whose index of > refraction could be changed electrically. A wedge of such a substance > could serve as a beam-deflecting element; I don't know how fast it > responds, but I'm fairly sure it's substantially faster than > mechanically moving a mirror. Sounds like a Kerr cell. I think those switch in nanoseconds, maybe less. paul From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 12 20:02:54 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:02:54 -0300 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY References: <741684.9040.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <085401c9bbd3$aeb438f0$ee6c19bb@DeskJara> > Glad to hear you're keeping your trusty LaserJet 4 - those are really > great printers. And, on the plus side, they're really easy to get parts > for! Every once in a while, I still get a call at work to go and repair > one of these - there are still quite a few of them out there in service. > Incidentally, let me know if you ever need new parts... I do lots of printing with that. I have a 4+ with jetdirect and postscript (and globs of memory, of course). This is one sturdy printer I don't want to let it go. I just cannot justify a newer printer! Maybe if someday I get a color one for cheap... From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 12 21:12:28 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:12:28 -0600 Subject: Is this a Q-BUS PDP-11? Message-ID: See ebay item # 270367995292 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From js at cimmeri.com Sun Apr 12 21:28:02 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:28:02 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. In-Reply-To: <20090412140247.H28688@shell.lmi.net> References: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> <20090412140247.H28688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49E2A332.6090305@cimmeri.com> > Has anybody installed it on a Mac? Fred, from what I understand, long ago, attempts were made but ditched. It's been discussed in the comp.os.cpm group. The Mac's hardware isn't particularly well-suited for CPM. jS From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:42:53 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:42:53 -0400 Subject: Is this a Q-BUS PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard wrote: > See ebay item # 270367995292 Those look like Qbus boards to me, but only one of the ones depicted has a DEC handle - it looks to me to be an LSI-11 CPU with an off-board cable to what might be a microcode board. The rest look like Nuclear Data boards, based on the logo and the part numbers given. I have limited exposure to 3rd party boards - mostly Emulex, SI, Andromeda, Dilog, and a few others. I've heard of ND, but know nothing about them. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 12 21:53:57 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:53:57 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090406132923.G97025@shell.lmi.net><200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49E240E3.8070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201c9bbe3$173f1430$c900a8c0@JWEST> >>> I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly have >>> learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually >>> "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an optimized >>> "bubble" is better for. What? No mention of the n-way polyphase sort/merge? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 12 22:22:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:22:42 -0700 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <004201c9bbe3$173f1430$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <004201c9bbe3$173f1430$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <49E24D92.20568.7BD71D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2009 at 21:53, Jay West wrote: > >>> I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly > >>> have learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually > >>> "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an > >>> optimized "bubble" is better for. > > What? No mention of the n-way polyphase sort/merge? CS grads don't do external sorts. ;) Not that the experts are particularly easy to work with. I recall one very memorable episode where the compiler front-end writer and the optimizer writer couldn't agree on the type of tree (binary or n- ary) to use for the internal representation of a compilation unit. The argument went on for more than a month, while both parties were writing their code trying to be the first done so that their method would be the one adopted. Neither would give an inch. I finally ended up writing the code to transform a n-ary tree into it's binary representation. Utter insanity just to keep the peace. Both participants were CS PhDs, who should have known better. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 12 22:35:12 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:35:12 -0500 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <004201c9bbe3$173f1430$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49E24D92.20568.7BD71D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000a01c9bbe8$da975f50$c900a8c0@JWEST> I had written.. >> What? No mention of the n-way polyphase sort/merge? > To which Chuck replied... > CS grads don't do external sorts. ;) Most implementations of the n-way polyphase sort/merge that I have seen - have been "internal", with just the algorithm being described as "external sorts of tapes too large to fit into memory". It's a wonderful technique for multiple chunks of inordered data. Like the buckets in an ISAM type file.... Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 12 23:00:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <49E24D92.20568.7BD71D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <004201c9bbe3$173f1430$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49E24D92.20568.7BD71D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090412205828.D40407@shell.lmi.net> > > >>> I've run into "CS" graduates from the university who supposedly > > >>> have learned about really "good" sort algorithms (usually > > >>> "Shell-Metzner"), without understanding which situations an > > >>> optimized "bubble" is better for. > > What? No mention of the n-way polyphase sort/merge? On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > CS grads don't do external sorts. ;) "Well, get more memory." > Not that the experts are particularly easy to work with. . . > Both participants were CS PhDs, who should have known better. eventually, we learn and remember that when hiring -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 12 23:03:25 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 68, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <000001c9bb96$4f2baa40$ed82fec0$@com> References: <000001c9bb96$4f2baa40$ed82fec0$@com> Message-ID: <49E2B98D.3070704@pacbell.net> Bob Stek wrote: > I may be mistaken, but I believe that the Palantir board was one designed by > our own Jim Battle, if it is what I think it is - a board for OCR. (Back in > 1987 I used the stand-alone Palantir OCR machine - a cheaper $25,000(?) > alternative to the Kurzweil unit - to scan in 1100+ pages of all the > Sherlock Holmes stories. It used 5 68000 CPU's and 2 MBs of ROM IIRC.) > > Any comments, Jim? I did reply on this topic ... although I replied just to cctalk. sending/replying to both cctalk and cctech is bad form. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 13 00:07:53 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:07:53 -0600 Subject: Teletype 43 ribbons Message-ID: There was some talk of locating these a while back. Looks like these people have some in stock: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Apr 13 00:16:19 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:16:19 -0400 Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <49E1D026.9040603@compsys.to> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49E1D026.9040603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200904130116.19329.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 12 April 2009 07:27:34 am Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > >>Due to the extreme generosity of Al Kossow, a new server was recently > >>provided for the list.... > >> > >>Over the past few weeks I've been working to migrate all the > >>classiccmp-related websites that I host on the server to the new > >> machine.... > > > >Thanks, Jay, for all the hard work; and thanks, Al, for the material > >support for the list (on top of all the other great things you do)! > > I add my thanks to both Jay and Al. This list really is unique. > > Jerome Fine It is indeed. I thought I knew a bit, but the folks in here continue to surprise me from time to time, in a good way. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Apr 13 00:41:07 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:41:07 -0400 Subject: Early 80's electronic/computer design books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904130141.07672.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 12 April 2009 01:53:30 pm Tony Duell wrote: > > > If you took the way-back machine to the 1980s, the Holy Grail would > > > have to be " The Art Of Electronics " by Horowitz & Hill ( ISBN: 0 521 > > > 37095 7 ). It is also a favorite of some others on this list ( like > > > Tony ). I cannot think of a better single source of technical > > > information. I got mine used on Amazon for a song. > > > > > > Best regards, Steven > > > > That one's been on my list for a while, I should check there and see if > > there's a relatively inexpensive copy... > > While this is a somewhat expensive book if bought full-price, I think > it's good value. It's packed full of useful information, it's clearly > written, and 'pracitcal' I have both 1st and 2nd edition and don't regret > uying them > > Also consider the companion 'Student Manual' which is basically a course > of practical electronic experiments (from the properties of resistors to > making a microcomputer system!). Again a lot of useful stuff in there. Amazon doesn't currently seem to be offering a copy for under $50, and abebooks is a bit better, but ignoring ebooks which are free shipping within India (?) they don't seem to have them for less than $30-40 or so, which at this point in time is unfortunately still a bit more than I can afford to invest in a book... And this one does come highly recommended, by any number of folks, all over a great many lists. Someday I'll get my hands on a copy, I suppose. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Apr 13 00:43:09 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:43:09 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904130143.10093.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 12 April 2009 03:00:30 pm Barry Watzman wrote: > Now that is a printer that is worth keeping. Especially with the Jet > Direct card. As for the toner cartridge .... you can get one on E-Bay for > probably $20 to $30, or you can get refill toner with instructions for > under $20. > > Barry Watzman > > Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:52:46 -0400 > From: Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum > Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY > > Would anyone like a working HP Laserjet 4 with 10mb Jet-Direct Card? > > Curt I'd call it worth while considering how well I'm doing with my LJ5MP here. And I snagged a _new_ toner cartridge for it through Amazon, cost to my door under $25, and not some no-name but actual HP in their box. It cured a bit of a problem I was having with gray smudges down one side of the page that the rebuilt refilled cartridge in there was giving me. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Apr 13 02:10:17 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:10:17 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49DBEEBB.3080406@mail.msu.edu> References: <49DBEEBB.3080406@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49E2E559.2010008@mail.msu.edu> I managed to get the +15V line back, and so I also have -15V. Found an open diode and a bad power transistor. Replaced them both and it's working again. Still no life from the CPU, but I just noticed that ACLO and DCLO are asserted, which I understand can cause this kind of misbehavior. (This was happening before I broke the +15V line, I just didn't realize that ACLO & DCLO are active-low signals at the time when I was testing out the supply...) Guess I get to pull the supply again and do some more debugging :). Is there a quick 'n dirty way to fake out/bypass these signals so I can at least see if the CPU runs at all? Thanks, Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > So I'm now the proud father of a DEC PDP 11/40, which should be a fun > project/adventure to get running again. > > I have been testing out the power supply and everything looked good > this morning, at which point I figured I'd populate the CPU backplane > and see what would happen. The answer is: not much -- occasionally a > few LEDs would light up, but the machine was completely unresponsive. > > I went a bit further and tested the voltages at the backplane, and > while checking the +15V, my probe slipped momentarily, bumping a > nearby wirewrap pin, causing a small spark. Now, where I once had > +15V, I have 0V. And since the -15V regulator is powered (in part) > from the +15V line, that's dead too. > > I was hoping, after reading through the documents again, that it would > be something as simple as fuse F1 on the power control board, but no > such luck. The fuse is still good. > > Any suggestions for what's most likely to have blown when I screwed up > here? Any recommendations for working on this supply? I'm really > looking forward to pulling this thing out of the rack to work on it -- > this thing looks heavy :) > > Thanks, > Josh (still slapping himself for screwing this up...) > > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 13 03:21:03 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:21:03 -0300 Subject: Which way to go, from now on? References: <49C4DFCF.20676.4889223@cclist.sydex.com><046e01c9aa60$ad869330$5d2b19bb@DeskJara> <575131af0903211313g5d338aa4o97374e48a9b19494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <049301c9bc11$033f3630$791819bb@DeskJara> > Just a wild idea... How about: not from Brazil? :?) > Stick to just Latin America and that will give you more scope, no? Most of latin america stuff was made or created in Brazil :o) I was willing to something more down to the ttl-only level... Thanks! Alexandre, PU1BZZ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 13 03:22:34 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:22:34 -0300 Subject: Which way to go, from now on? References: <49C4DFCF.20676.4889223@cclist.sydex.com><046e01c9aa60$ad869330$5d2b19bb@DeskJara> <20090322082640.f202fae6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <04d801c9bc11$77b0c830$791819bb@DeskJara> > Build your own computer from TTL chips. > You may prototype it with a FPGA implementation. When I get some intro in VHDL, surely I will :) VHDL is something that is simple enough to the point I can get a source in VHDL and understands what it does, but cannot create from scratch :oP > Build new peripherals for old computers. E.g. a QBUS MSCP disk and tape > controler for VAXen and PDP-11s that uses SD-Cards as backing storage. I did that for MSX for ages :) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 13 03:23:59 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:23:59 -0300 Subject: Which way to go, from now on? References: <49C4DFCF.20676.4889223@cclist.sydex.com><046e01c9aa60$ad869330$5d2b19bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <04d901c9bc11$7897f3e0$791819bb@DeskJara> > Now and then I think it would be nice to have a vector monitor for general > fooling around. Then I start thinking about using a laser in place of an > electron beam. Hmm... Anyone have any suggestions on pursuing that? Use an old oscilloscope...it is cheap, easy to use and pretty hard to break with wrong signals. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 13 03:25:45 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 05:25:45 -0300 Subject: Which way to go, from now on? References: <01C9AB01.23F2C700@host-208-72-122-15.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <04da01c9bc11$794fab20$791819bb@DeskJara> > Where to go, what to do... a profound question indeed... :oD > Why not join Andrew's happy little gang building and playing with the > N8VEM SBC? Sounds like a lot of fun. That is nice, but I wanted something with more "fun" factor. I'll build a single board computer. Ok. And so? :oO > I'm still waiting to hear from you about that PPT BTW... ;-) PPT!??! Are you talking to the wrong guy, or did I misread some private mail??? Please, pvt me! From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Apr 13 03:59:25 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:59:25 +0100 Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay References: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006401c9bc17$89360ba0$3600a8c0@xyleth.local> Depends on how closely specified the motor is and if it's a synchronous motor. Some years ago we used to ship in US 60Hz kit and run directly on 50Hz, as a "rull of thumb" derating by about 10% and it all worked fine. If the motor is synchronous it may give you speed issues but it should still run ok. Mike mike at soemtron.org www.soemtron.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Holmes" To: Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay > Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 keypunch on > eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it has been shipped across > the Atlantic I will have to think about converting it from 60Hz to 50Hz. > I have the remains of a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz motor I > should be able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a step down > transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers might be > enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. > > Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole thing with just > a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns out, not the end of the > world. > > > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 13 04:10:49 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:10:49 -0300 Subject: Flexowriter lubrication References: <200903200656.n2K6rjbr028193@dewey.classiccmp.org><2687DD29-5507-473C-BC6E-EDB6A05F8BC5@microspot.co.uk> <2812.192.168.99.142.1237552356.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <055c01c9bc18$bdcdfc00$791819bb@DeskJara> > WD40 isn't really a good lubricant for anything, but does an excellent job > of cleaning parts and stripping oils and gums. (recurring message...again) WD40 isn't a "lubrificating" oil. WD40 is a very thin silicone oil, excellent for penetrating thigh things and creating a film of silicone protection, but no lubrificating whatsoever. It can seem to lubrificate at first, but when it dries out it clogs everything around. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 09:00:22 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LIST ADMIN In-Reply-To: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <010901c9bb17$564a4680$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 2009, Jay West wrote: > Greetings Folks! > > As many of you noticed almost a year ago, we started having issues with the > classiccmp server. Some of these were hardware issues, some software, etc. I assume that is why none of my postings since early March appeared on the list - until this weekend :-). -- From jrr at flippers.com Sun Apr 12 11:39:44 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:39:44 -0700 Subject: Keypunch that was on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <200904041800.n34I0O6X088073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49E21950.6060008@flippers.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > Thanks for whoever it was who posted the info on the IBM 029 keypunch > on eBay. I have won it, nobody else bid. After it has been shipped > across the Atlantic I will have to think about converting it from 60Hz > to 50Hz. I have the remains of a 50Hz verifier which has a 240v / 50Hz > motor I should be able to use. Hopefully the rest runs on DC, so a > step down transformer before the transformers and bridge rectifiers > might be enough. Shipping costs more than the item of course. > > Anyone have any thoughts if it is worth trying the whole thing with > just a 240 - 110 transformer? If the motor burns out, not the end of > the world. > > > > I have had good success using a DC - AC inverter for powering 300 watt loads for automobiles... I have found that for motors and transformers these seem to work fine with the transformer/motor not overheating due to the imperfect sinusoidal waveform (modified square wave). I have adjusted the frequency of the inverter that I picked up from Canadian Tire (Large chain auto supply example) as it used a pretty basic IC oscillator circuit and after downloading the schematic and suggested uses found the resistor that I could adjust frequency. I see no reason this would not work for larger inverters (500 Watt). Or buy a North American inverter (115V 60Hz) that is the correct wattage... Then all you need is a hefty 12VDC supply and I used a computer switching supply - they pump out lots of amps on the 12V line these days. We installed a couple of these in jukeboxes going to the orient and they provided all the power for the machine - set the computer supply to 220 and they are still going strong... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From wgungfu at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 01:17:16 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:17:16 -0600 Subject: free stuff from Milwaukee Wisconsin In-Reply-To: <49D057FE.4000208@pacbell.net> References: <49BD9DA1.3050401@pacbell.net> <49D057FE.4000208@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0904112317g78304eeel81d11831ff0a9dc7@mail.gmail.com> I'm located in Milwaukee and can assist mailing out stuff if needed. I might be interested in the Z-80 CPU assembly as well. Marty On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > I sent this a couple weeks back, about when the list went down for a few > days. I'm not sure if it was received or not. There were no inquiries, so > either nobody wants S-100 stuff these days, or the message didn't get out. > Sorry if it is a dup and nobody is interested. > > > A gentleman contacted me and said he had some things that his brother had > made/used back in the day, but he wanted to find a new home for them after > his brother died. I have given away my S-100 stuff, so I have no use for it. > He doesn't want his email address on the web, so contact me and I'll put you > in touch with him. > > Al Kossow, this stuff is coming from Bob Senzig -- this was his brother > Don's stuff. > > 1) Z-80 CPU 2810A assembly number 02810001A (mfg) > > 2) Model 2422 multi mode floppy disk controller assembly number > 02422-001 rev B (mfg) > > 4) Data technology 018A000 rev 2 (manufactured) > > 5) Vector Graphics 64K RAM Assembly number 3504 (mfg) > > 6) Vector Graphics serial card ZCB (mfg) > > 7) Processor Technology Co. 2KRO (hand wired) with boot PROM > > 8) GODBOUT 4K static RAM (hand wired) > > 10) Vector Graphics floppy disk drive disk controller assembly number > 356500000600 (mfg) > > 11) Altair DMA interface 1976 (hand built) > > 12) Processor technology 4K RA (hand assembled) > > 13) 4K static RAM by Solid State Music 1976 (hand assembled) > > 15) Extender card (hand assembled) > > 17) IMS Associates Inc 1976 CRI rev 1 Audio interface board (hand > assembled) > > 18) Godbout 4K byte RAM module (hand assembled) > > From lee_courtney at acm.org Sun Apr 12 10:07:52 2009 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Large_cache_of_classic_computer_in_Ume=E5=2C_Sweden?= Message-ID: <788821.72952.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hej G?ran, There's always donation to IT-Ceum in Link?ping. Kinda far away, but still in Sweden and a nice Museum. Cheers, Lee Courtney Menlo Park, CA 94025 --- On Sat, 4/11/09, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > From: G?ran Axelsson > Subject: Large cache of classic computer in Ume?, Sweden > To: General at acc.umu.se, "On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 3:22 AM > Hi List! > > I'm helping a friend to empty a storage which he has to > have empty by the end of the month so time is short. This > message is a mix between "look what I've got" and "Help, > need a good home for this lot". I'm taking over a large part > of this collection but I can only take care of the most > precious computers. > > The contents of the storage is a lot of personal stuff and > other random objects, but he also collects old computers > with focus on Norsk Data machines. > More or less of what we can see so far, this is the major > parts... > - ND-5700, two full rack, one complete, one missing a CPU. > I'll take care of this system. > - ND-Filestore, disks and tape. I'll take this one too > - ND-110 Compact, 4 machines. I'll save all and reserve one > for my self. > - ND-110 Satellite, about 10 machines. I'll try to save > all, reserving one or two myself. > - ND-Butterfly, 2-3 machines, all spoken for. > - A huge stash of manuals. Will be saved and scanned. A lot > of doubles exists. > See the list at http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/Virtual_library#ND_Library_Teg_in_Ume.C3.A5 > > - ND-Notis terminals. (Nokia VT220 terminals). Circa 80 > terminals. Only a few are spoken for, anything left near the > end of the month will go into the dumpster.? :-( > > - NEC Monograph, new systems in boxes 4-6 systems, complete > with graphics controller and all. For running DTP under Win > 3.0/3.1, monochrome monitor Maybe two spoken for. > > - A lot of Archie computer laptop parts, 286. > - ISA IDE controllers, new in box. approximately 30 cards. > - Some IBM system 3 manuals, RPG2 > - ... plus a lot more that I can't remember right now. > > We have found a number of other computers among all the > scrap, some really nice ones. I liked the ABC 1600, an unix > machine made by Luxor with a twistable screen with white > phosphor. But those computers are going to remain in my > friends custody. > > If time permits we could send stuff by mail or in some > other way. We might store some stuff if we know we could > ship it off after the move but this month will take all our > time just to clear space and move the bigger machines > around. > Local pickup is preferred and will get priority over any > shipping. > > My phone number is int+46 (0)73 98 67 881. > > /G?ran > From lee_courtney at acm.org Sun Apr 12 10:07:52 2009 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Large_cache_of_classic_computer_in_Ume=E5=2C_Sweden?= Message-ID: <788821.72952.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hej G?ran, There's always donation to IT-Ceum in Link?ping. Kinda far away, but still in Sweden and a nice Museum. Cheers, Lee Courtney Menlo Park, CA 94025 --- On Sat, 4/11/09, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > From: G?ran Axelsson > Subject: Large cache of classic computer in Ume?, Sweden > To: General at acc.umu.se, "On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 3:22 AM > Hi List! > > I'm helping a friend to empty a storage which he has to > have empty by the end of the month so time is short. This > message is a mix between "look what I've got" and "Help, > need a good home for this lot". I'm taking over a large part > of this collection but I can only take care of the most > precious computers. > > The contents of the storage is a lot of personal stuff and > other random objects, but he also collects old computers > with focus on Norsk Data machines. > More or less of what we can see so far, this is the major > parts... > - ND-5700, two full rack, one complete, one missing a CPU. > I'll take care of this system. > - ND-Filestore, disks and tape. I'll take this one too > - ND-110 Compact, 4 machines. I'll save all and reserve one > for my self. > - ND-110 Satellite, about 10 machines. I'll try to save > all, reserving one or two myself. > - ND-Butterfly, 2-3 machines, all spoken for. > - A huge stash of manuals. Will be saved and scanned. A lot > of doubles exists. > See the list at http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/Virtual_library#ND_Library_Teg_in_Ume.C3.A5 > > - ND-Notis terminals. (Nokia VT220 terminals). Circa 80 > terminals. Only a few are spoken for, anything left near the > end of the month will go into the dumpster.? :-( > > - NEC Monograph, new systems in boxes 4-6 systems, complete > with graphics controller and all. For running DTP under Win > 3.0/3.1, monochrome monitor Maybe two spoken for. > > - A lot of Archie computer laptop parts, 286. > - ISA IDE controllers, new in box. approximately 30 cards. > - Some IBM system 3 manuals, RPG2 > - ... plus a lot more that I can't remember right now. > > We have found a number of other computers among all the > scrap, some really nice ones. I liked the ABC 1600, an unix > machine made by Luxor with a twistable screen with white > phosphor. But those computers are going to remain in my > friends custody. > > If time permits we could send stuff by mail or in some > other way. We might store some stuff if we know we could > ship it off after the move but this month will take all our > time just to clear space and move the bigger machines > around. > Local pickup is preferred and will get priority over any > shipping. > > My phone number is int+46 (0)73 98 67 881. > > /G?ran > From lee_courtney at acm.org Sun Apr 12 19:11:00 2009 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE: QIC-40/-80 Internal Tape Drive Message-ID: <766.32706.qm@web35305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Free for local pick-up in SF Bay Area (95032), a slightly used Conner internal PC tape drive for QIC-80/AccuTrak250(RW), QIC-40/AccuTrak120(RO) media. Comes with original docs, cable and DOS and Windows floppies. Contact me off-list if interested. FCFS... Lee Courtney From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sun Apr 12 21:38:31 2009 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:38:31 +1000 Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <20090412141750.Y28688@shell.lmi.net> References: <333314.51432.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200904062119.RAA06864@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20090411152018.W90442@shell.lmi.net> <200904120029.23920.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090412141750.Y28688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <29FAFA02-4B48-4C97-8CC3-8FA473A7B7BE@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 13/04/2009, at 7:52 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Try page 110 of Knuth's "Sorting and Searching" (Volume 3 of "Art of > Programming" ISBN 0-201-03803-X) For those of you who find pictures help understanding, take a look at: http://www.hatfulofhollow.com/posts/code/visualisingsorting/index.html This was a totally serendipitous find - I was just catching up on this week's Python news. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 08:57:09 2009 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?SunFire_6800_in_Montr=E9al?= Message-ID: Hello all, I'm not sure how to put this, but I really hope someone on the list -- and local to me -- will buy this machine. eBay item 270372433812. Sun Fire 6800 in Verdun (QC), pickup only. Zero bids, starting at 100 USD, 4 days left. Yes, all 500 kg. Even if, as the seller says, "my cute friends [in the photo] are not included". I don't know the seller -- and notice his nonexistant feedback -- but what's the risk if it's "pickup only" and you've paid by CC or Paypal? If you buy it, you have to invite me over to check it out. I couldn't take this machine even if one paid me to haul it away, unfortunately. :-( - Alex From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 11:29:29 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:29:29 -0400 Subject: SunFire 6800 in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Montr=E9al?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E36869.9000506@gmail.com> Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > eBay item 270372433812. Sun Fire 6800 in Verdun (QC), pickup only. Zero > bids, starting at 100 USD, 4 days left. Yes, all 500 kg. Even if, as the > seller says, "my cute friends [in the photo] are not included". Plus the description is garbage. > I don't know the seller -- and notice his nonexistant feedback -- but > what's the risk if it's "pickup only" and you've paid by CC or Paypal? Pickup costs, which could be substantial. Peace... Sridhar From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Apr 13 12:42:14 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:42:14 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_SunFir?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e_6800_in_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Montr=E9al?= In-Reply-To: <49E36869.9000506@gmail.com> References: <49E36869.9000506@gmail.com> Message-ID: And when/if you pick it up, don't forget your oven mitts. seeing as how a small used 6800 goes for about $8k, you may need a radiation suit for this one... > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:29:29 -0400 > From: ploopster at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: SunFire 6800 in Montr?al > > Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > > eBay item 270372433812. Sun Fire 6800 in Verdun (QC), pickup only. Zero > > bids, starting at 100 USD, 4 days left. Yes, all 500 kg. Even if, as the > > seller says, "my cute friends [in the photo] are not included". > > Plus the description is garbage. > > > I don't know the seller -- and notice his nonexistant feedback -- but > > what's the risk if it's "pickup only" and you've paid by CC or Paypal? > > Pickup costs, which could be substantial. > > Peace... Sridhar _________________________________________________________________ Reinvent how you stay in touch with the new Windows Live Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650731 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 13 13:13:51 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:13:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running In-Reply-To: <29FAFA02-4B48-4C97-8CC3-8FA473A7B7BE@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <531446.17584.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for that. I for one hate learning something by text only, as you can sometimes mis-interprate it (something I do more often than I would like!), but if simple straight forward visuals are included (or examples) I can often understand things much quicker. Bubblesort is nice and easy to understand :) I have bookmarked that page and will look up the other sorting methods once I have more time on my hands. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 13/4/09, Huw Davies wrote: From: Huw Davies Subject: Re: The lost art (Was: The VAX is running To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, 13 April, 2009, 3:38 AM On 13/04/2009, at 7:52 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Try page 110 of Knuth's "Sorting and Searching" (Volume 3 of "Art of > Programming" ISBN 0-201-03803-X) For those of you who find pictures help understanding, take a look at: http://www.hatfulofhollow.com/posts/code/visualisingsorting/index.html This was a totally serendipitous find - I was just catching up on this week's Python news. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From trag at io.com Mon Apr 13 13:38:21 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:38:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <182f4549f74c53d681366d84880cca4b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:02:54 -0300 > From: "Alexandre Souza" > I have a 4+ with jetdirect and > postscript (and globs of memory, of course). This is one sturdy printer I > don't want to let it go. I just cannot justify a newer printer! Maybe if > someday I get a color one for cheap... Definitions of cheap vary of course. This past holiday season there were at least three color laser printers priced at $200 shipped to (IIRC) $300 shipped with postscript and ethernet connectivity built in. The Kyocera EP C170N was $200 shipped from buy.com and through Amazon but fulfilled by an arm of Buy.com. The Xerox Phaser 6180 was (again, IIRC) $250 from Staples with free shipping. Both of the above models accept an optional duplexer, but the duplexer costs about what the printers were going for. The third model was something from Brother, I think, with the duplexer included and priced around $300 from Newegg. I bought the Kyocera model because it includes AppleTalk support--not LocalTalk, but support for AppleTalk over Ethernet. I still have some old Macs around (bringing this sort of on-topic) and the extra compatibility is nice. Jeff Walther P.S. The KTM1523/512 Kingston 512MB module works as an upgrade in the C170N, so the expensive Kyocera upgrade can be avoided. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 12:52:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:52:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E2E559.2010008@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Apr 13, 9 00:10:17 am Message-ID: > > I managed to get the +15V line back, and so I also have -15V. Found an > open diode and a bad power transistor. Replaced them both and it's > working again. > As ever 'A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first' :-) > Still no life from the CPU, but I just noticed that ACLO and DCLO are > asserted, which I understand can cause this kind of misbehavior. (This > was happening before I broke the +15V line, I just didn't realize that Those signals are generated on that PCB where the +15V regulator is. It's a fairly simple circuit, it's not hard to debug. > ACLO & DCLO are active-low signals at the time when I was testing out > the supply...) Guess I get to pull the supply again and do some more > debugging :). Is there a quick 'n dirty way to fake out/bypass these > signals so I can at least see if the CPU runs at all? If you disconnect the wries between the PSU and the backplane (just remove the pins from one of the mate-n-lock connectors, but rememerb where they go!), the signals will be pulled high by the Unibus terminator. I don't know if everything will initialise properly in that case (I think it should do), but at least the CPU will do soemthing. -tony From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Apr 13 13:46:03 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:46:03 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY References: <182f4549f74c53d681366d84880cca4b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <18915.34923.349351.335555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Walther writes: Jeff> Definitions of cheap vary of course. This past holiday season Jeff> there were at least three color laser printers priced at $200 Jeff> shipped to (IIRC) $300 shipped with postscript and ethernet Jeff> connectivity built in. Jeff> ...The Xerox Phaser 6180 was (again, IIRC) $250 from Staples with Jeff> free shipping. FWIW, I have the 6180. Very good, it is quite fast and its color quality is excellent. (Much better than the big guys.) paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 13:50:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:50:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard Message-ID: For Rik and anyone else who's still folling the saga of the HP120 keyboard, I've now hacked an HP150 keyboard to make it HP120-compatible. Here are some details... As we all know by now, the HP150 keyboard has the right interface to plug into an HP120, it's just that the keys are sent in the wrong order. The scanning is done by a 4024 7 bit counter inside the keyboard, my idea was to replace with with a circuit that was essentially a counter with a non-standard count sequence to select the keys in the order needed by the HP120. And the obvious way of doing that is simply a 7 bit counter followed by a ROM acting as a lookup table to do the code conversion. Of course it's not quite as simple as that (things never are!). The main problem is that HP120 keyboard runs at 12V internally (it's all 4000-series CMOS logic chips). And most common EPROMs run at 5V. I ended up with a board containing 5 chips and a 7805 voltage regulator. This links by a short length of ribbon cable and a 14 pin DIL header to a socket which I fitted in place of the scan counter chip (a 4024 at location M2) on the HP150 keyboard PCB. All the new chips run off the 5V output of that 7805. Here's a brief circuit description : 2 sections of a 4050 hex buffer takes the clock and reset signals from the HP150 keyboard PCB (these are the signals that would have controlled that 4024). It doesn't seem to be generally known (but it's in all the data sheets I've looked at) that the 4050 (and its inverting brother the 4049) can take inputs up to 15V even when run off a lower supply voltage. They are intended for level-shifting from CMOS voltages to TTL. And unlike the older 4009 and 4010 (which they replace) they only need the 5V power line, not a second power line corresponding to the input voltage. The outputs of that buffer go to a 4024 7 bit counter in the obvious way. The outputs of that go to the bottom 7 address lines (A0...A6) of a 27C64 EPROM. A7 goes to a switch and pull-up resistor so I can select between 2 key mappings (HP120 and HP150 mode). The remaining address lines, CE/ and OE/ are all grounded. Why use such a large EPROM? It was the first CMOS one I found in the junk box :-). The outputs of the EPROM are, of course at TTL levels, and need to be level-shifted back to 12V to drive the CMOS logic in the keyboard. I used 7 sections of 74LS07 (so 2 packages total) with 3k3 pull-up resistors to +12V The EPROM cotnains 2 128-byte tables. The first one (locations 00-7f) gives the remapping for the HP120 mode. The second one (locations 80-ff) cotnains the values 00-7f in order, thus keeping the keys in the original sequence for the HP150 mode. Anyway, I soldered it up. I worked out the correct data for the first half of the EPROM, I programmed the EPROM. And I tried it out. Most of the keys worked correctly, but some, including f8 did nothing. While fiddling around, I found f8 _sometimes_ worked. Oh great, I've got an intermittant fault. So I grabbed the LogicDart. While looking at the scan drive signals (the outputs of the 74ls07s), I noticed some glitches on some of them, doubtless due to the fact that the 4024 is a fairly slow ripple counter. Thinking that was the problem, I decied that maybe a 74HCT4024 would help. Alas my junk box doesn't contain much in the way of HCT chips, but I did find a 74HCT4040 which is a 12 bit ripple counter of a totally different pinout. One header plug, One DIL socket, and lots of wire later and I'd kludged up an adapter. Plugged it in. No change. Glitches still there, f8 works intermittantly. I did discover (by comparison with the HP262x keybaord I'd already got working) that the effects of some keys are not noticeable in 'Local' mode unless you turn 'Display Functions' on (this displays control codes on the screen rather than executing them). I did this and found that essentially only 2 keys on the HP150 keybaord were dodgy. Hmmm Finally I put the LogicDart on the signal I should have looked at in the first place -- namely the data line back to the HP120. And I found that when the key didn't work, there was nothing on that line. No glitches, just nothing. The output of the scan decoder (4028) in the HP150 keyboard was hehaving correctly, as far as I could tell, all the time. The input to the row multiplexer (4051) wasn't. Between them, of coruse, are the key switches and their diodes.] And yes, you guessed it. The dodgy keys had dodgy keyswitches. All my hackery was working find. Dismantling the keyboard assembly (lots of little screws), a squirt of contact cleaner, and it seems OK now. All I have to do is box it up. The new board will have to go in a plastic box screwed to the top of the keyboard. But I want to get things just right before I start drilling holes. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 13 14:07:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:07:08 -0700 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: <182f4549f74c53d681366d84880cca4b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: , <182f4549f74c53d681366d84880cca4b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <49E32AEC.4730.B1E4F26@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2009 at 13:38, Jeff Walther wrote: > Both of the above models accept an optional duplexer, but the duplexer > costs about what the printers were going for. Yeah, I bought my last new laser on sale for about $100 shipped (a Brother). At that price it's almost cheaper to replace it when it needs a new drum. OTOH, the Xerox N2825 with duplexer and maintenance kit that I just picked up off of Craigslist was a deal. The seller's motivated (he closed his business) and can't get rid of it because people think it's too big. (Duh! It prints ledger-sized paper). After getting the hang of configuring it (not simple!), I like it a lot. Pretty fast at 28 ppm and very sharp print. It has 32MB of memory in it, with DIMM slots for up to 196MB. I'm trying to figure out what kind of memory works--so far, PC100 and PC133 don't seem to be it. There's also a DIMM for flash and a hard disk interface. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 14:18:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:18:40 -0400 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: <49E32AEC.4730.B1E4F26@cclist.sydex.com> References: <182f4549f74c53d681366d84880cca4b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <49E32AEC.4730.B1E4F26@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...OTOH, the Xerox N2825 with duplexer and maintenance kit that I just > picked up off of Craigslist was a deal... > It has 32MB of memory in it, with DIMM slots for up to 196MB. I'm > trying to figure out what kind of memory works--so far, PC100 and > PC133 don't seem to be it. 60ns EDO perhaps? -ethan From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Apr 13 14:26:10 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:26:10 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > >> ACLO & DCLO are active-low signals at the time when I was testing out >> the supply...) Guess I get to pull the supply again and do some more >> debugging :). Is there a quick 'n dirty way to fake out/bypass these >> signals so I can at least see if the CPU runs at all? >> > > If you disconnect the wries between the PSU and the backplane (just > remove the pins from one of the mate-n-lock connectors, but rememerb > where they go!), the signals will be pulled high by the Unibus > terminator. I don't know if everything will initialise properly in that > case (I think it should do), but at least the CPU will do soemthing. > Thanks -- just tried this, and I still get the same behavior from the CPU. ACLO and DCLO are now pulled high. Well, this is going to be a fun project :). Guess I need to start debugging the CPU, any suggestions on where to start? (Anyone have a Unibus extender card?) > -tony > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 13 14:32:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:32:49 -0700 Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup - Putnam, NY In-Reply-To: References: , <49E32AEC.4730.B1E4F26@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49E330F1.25425.B35D3A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2009 at 15:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > 60ns EDO perhaps? > > m> 3.3 or 5v? The EDO DIMMs I tried should have worked, but didn't even register. Some additional research is obviously called for. Maybe it's the "unbuffered" bit. Does anyone else find memory module terminology confusing? --Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Apr 13 14:34:48 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old iron needed for prop shoot in Chicago Message-ID: I have a potential client who is looking for old iron (i.e. mainframes, minicomputers, unit record equipment, etc.) in the Chicago area for a prop shoot. There's not a whole lot of money involved, so I'm probably just going to send the guy a contact list of those who respond to this inquiry and let you work out your own deals. If anyone has any mainframe sections or minicomputers in racks with lots of lights and switches or keypunch machines, 9-track tape drives, etc., and they are transportable, then please contact me directly (off-list) and I'll give you the details. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 13 15:50:31 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:50:31 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> References: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Yup, but not a hex extender. :-) I'd suggest Douglas Electronics - that's where I bought my quad extender some time back. There's also an interesting Unibus analyzer made by Guy Sotomayor, a major collector (and a good guy). You can find out more about that at http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html. I'm not associated with his business and I don't own the board, but Guy showed me one when I met him to buy a machine and it sounds pretty cool. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 12:26 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> ACLO & DCLO are active-low signals at the time when I was testing > out > >> the supply...) Guess I get to pull the supply again and do some > more > >> debugging :). Is there a quick 'n dirty way to fake out/bypass > these > >> signals so I can at least see if the CPU runs at all? > >> > > > > If you disconnect the wries between the PSU and the backplane (just > > remove the pins from one of the mate-n-lock connectors, but rememerb > > where they go!), the signals will be pulled high by the Unibus > > terminator. I don't know if everything will initialise properly in > that > > case (I think it should do), but at least the CPU will do soemthing. > > > Thanks -- just tried this, and I still get the same behavior from the > CPU. ACLO and DCLO are now pulled high. Well, this is going to be a > fun project :). Guess I need to start debugging the CPU, any > suggestions on where to start? (Anyone have a Unibus extender card?) > > -tony > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:02:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:02:30 -0400 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: References: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/13/09, Ian King wrote: > Yup, but not a hex extender. :-) I'd suggest Douglas Electronics - that's where I bought my quad extender some time back. I can recommend them as well. They have some good stuff. > There's also an interesting Unibus analyzer made by Guy Sotomayor, a major collector (and a good guy). You can find out more about that at http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html. I have one of those boards, but since I got it from Guy as a bare board, I still have to assemble mine - I plan to do that before I get back into Unibus machine debugging (that and the KM11 - very handy for debugging/repairing certain vintage items). If you can't find a hex extender, you can use three dual-height extenders, albeit with some mechanical instability. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 17:35:06 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:35:06 -0500 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E3BE1A.3050300@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > All I have to do is box it up. The new board will have to go in a plastic > box screwed to the top of the keyboard. But I want to get things just > right before I start drilling holes. Yick... if you have to screw it, can't it be on the back - or some form of trailing cable so that a future owner can put things back to original should they want to? (I'm all for modifying old stuff to make it more useful - but I try my hardest to do it in such a way that someone else could back out of any changes) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 13 18:13:37 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:13:37 +0100 Subject: Flexowriter lubrication In-Reply-To: <055c01c9bc18$bdcdfc00$791819bb@DeskJara> References: <200903200656.n2K6rjbr028193@dewey.classiccmp.org><2687DD29-5507-473C-BC6E-EDB6A05F8BC5@microspot.co.uk> <2812.192.168.99.142.1237552356.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> <055c01c9bc18$bdcdfc00$791819bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <49E3C721.6080200@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/04/2009 10:10, Alexandre Souza wrote: > WD40 isn't a "lubrificating" oil. WD40 is a very thin silicone oil, > excellent for penetrating thigh things and creating a film of silicone > protection, but no lubrificating whatsoever. It can seem to lubrificate > at first, but when it dries out it clogs everything around. obNitPick: It's not silicone, it's paraffin -- light paraffin plus wax. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Apr 13 21:13:57 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:13:57 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: References: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/13/09, Ian King wrote: > >> Yup, but not a hex extender. :-) I'd suggest Douglas Electronics - that's where I bought my quad extender some time back. >> > > I can recommend them as well. They have some good stuff. > Cool, I'll have to pick up an extender from them (looks like one quad + one dual, since their hex extenders are orderable in quantities of 10 only...). Should be useful for my qbus + omnibus machines as well... > >> There's also an interesting Unibus analyzer made by Guy Sotomayor, a major collector (and a good guy). You can find out more about that at http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html. >> > > I have one of those boards, but since I got it from Guy as a bare > board, I still have to assemble mine - I plan to do that before I get > back into Unibus machine debugging (that and the KM11 - very handy for > debugging/repairing certain vintage items). > The KM11 looks like it may be very useful for getting my 11/40's CPU running again... anyone have any experiences to share using one of these? Thanks for the suggestions. Josh > If you can't find a hex extender, you can use three dual-height > extenders, albeit with some mechanical instability. > > -ethan > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 13 21:36:20 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:36:20 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> References: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <18E0F188-C35C-4D91-A291-8639529EDD40@shiresoft.com> On Apr 13, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> >>> There's also an interesting Unibus analyzer made by Guy Sotomayor, >>> a major collector (and a good guy). You can find out more about >>> that at http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html >>> . >>> >> >> I have one of those boards, but since I got it from Guy as a bare >> board, I still have to assemble mine - I plan to do that before I get >> back into Unibus machine debugging (that and the KM11 - very handy >> for >> debugging/repairing certain vintage items). >> > The KM11 looks like it may be very useful for getting my 11/40's CPU > running again... anyone have any experiences to share using one of > these? > For the KM11, you want to have the maintenance manual for the CPU. There are directions on how to use the KM11. Let me know if you if you want 2. :-) TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 13 23:53:23 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:53:23 -0600 Subject: my sickness continues... Message-ID: "ONE LOT CONSISTING OF 2 EACH IMAGE GENERATORS: EVANS AND SUTHERLAND, MODEL 103401-103, SERIAL 9; AND EVANS AND SUTHERLAND, MODEL 103402-011, SERIAL 61" Based on the model numbers, I'm assuming they're ESIG-10000 series racks. Hopefully with my contacts that still work at Rockwell-Collins I can get these puppies up and running. My wallet hates a list member for telling me about this, but my collecction thanks him :-). It looks like they were used for flight training at NASA AMES. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 23:55:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:55:18 -0400 Subject: KM11s and the PDP-11/20 (was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V...) Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> ?There's also an interesting Unibus analyzer made by Guy Sotomayor... >>> http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html. >> >> I have one of those boards, but since I got it from Guy as a bare >> board, I still have to assemble mine... > > The KM11 looks like it may be very useful for getting my 11/40's CPU running > again... anyone have any experiences to share using one of these? No. I wish I did, but I got a pair of KM-11s since I have several DEC devices which can use them (RX01, RK11-C, RK11-D, PDP-11/05, PDP-11/20). I don't happen to have an 11/40. The primary purpose for my KM11s, was to facilitate the restoration of my 11/20 - it was butchered and dumped prior to me acquiring it (I rescued it from the skip at work, already in many pieces), and to attempt to get my RK11-C working (it arrived from the same place intact, but is suffering from some visible corrosion on the pins of the backplane, so I don't know if I'll ever get it working reliably). I don't need to do much RX01 electronic repair (a new drive motor and a new stepper motor would go a long way to returning both sides of a dual drive to work, but the boards seem intact); however, I think it'd be cool to watch the drive work by observing the blinkenlights. These items are way, way down on my DEC list (I have PDP-8s to work on first), but someday the 11/20 will bubble up to the surface. I know I don't have all the core that originally came with it - one of my cow-orkers souvenired it 20 years ago. I have the backplanes and the driver boards, but am missing at least one 4K core plane. My _hope_ for this system is to get an older version of RT-11 up on it first, then *perhaps* if I can get enough memory on it and some compatible disk device, see if there's an ancient-enough version of UNIX in the PUPS archive to run on it (it would have to be a version from 1971 or 1972, IIRC, to fit on a KA-11 w/16-bit address bus). I don't know that it's possible, but it's a goal. I'm thinking that the RK11-C might work there, or since I know it works, the RK11-D, plus one or two RK05s. It's possible that those are too new for PDP-11 UNIX, but for old RT-11, I can probably get away with the SJ monitor and an RX11 w/dual RX01s. First, though, I have a lot of reconstruction to do on the 11/20. IIRC, I will need some PSUs to get the ball rolling, since that's what I think was yanked from it before it was trashed. I think I have the CPU box plus two memory boxes (the size of 3 BA-11s, essentially), but I don't recall the PSU model number off the top of my head - it's one that supports multiple single-height power cards in a series of DD-11C-sized 4-slot hex-height backplanes. Oh... I probably don't have enough M920s to reconnect everything - I don't think many of them were in the dumpster with the CPU. *Sigh* The missing parts is why I never did much with it. Maybe I'm better off trying to recycle the front panel and drive it from something modern. The chances of finding multiple PSUs and short Unibus interconnects that aren't already in an 11/20 seem small these days. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 12:37:29 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) Message-ID: <75908.59122.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> you know in all fairness, there are only so many promises even ePay can keep. If someone is unaware, or rather just unprepared to deal w/some risk, uh well, too bad ya big baby. And moreover if you're inclined to believe their line of bull, you're worse off then that. ?In truth though, I've had B-E-T-T-E-R transactions from dealings off of eBay. You do the analysis. It's true. I'm sorry but it's true. Too often (and this is going back years and years, not just recently) someone will put some piece of crap on eBay, and watch the bidding go up, up, and away. The temptation is too much the next time they chance upon some piece of crap left out in the trash. And there's this layer of insulation where you don't have to face the buyer. You can assuage your conscience by saying the bidder just didn't ask enough questions. --- On Sun, 3/29/09, der Mouse wrote: From: der Mouse Subject: Re: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 3:55 PM > First, re: "I hate [ebay] because it defrauded me in 2005", that is, > in all probability, BS.? E-Bay didn't defraud you, the other party > (buyer or seller) did. But if ebay makes promises which it doesn't keep - such as promising to protect each party against the other - then that too is fraudulent. (Whether ebay does make such promises I don't know, but I've certainly seen enough stories to make me think it doesn't deliver if so.) /~\ The ASCII??? ??? ??? ??? ? Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X? Against HTML??? ??? mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email!??? ? ???7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39? 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jrr at flippers.com Mon Apr 13 15:34:34 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:34:34 -0700 Subject: HP Laserjet 4MP free for pickup - Vancouver, BC (Canada) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E3A1DA.5090908@flippers.com> I have a nice working HP4MP with the JetDirect card, lots of RAM, and I think it has a working Postscript card - never used that feature. Double sider, with a spare single side machine (melted fuser roller) for parts... Please feel free to haul it away! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Mon Apr 13 20:54:30 2009 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:54:30 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/11/09 8:06 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > I just won an 820-II on eBay, but the seller lost the external drive box > (hard disk + 8" floppy). Judging by the schematic, it should be very > straightforward to interface one of my floppy drives to it (I have a bunch > of Shugart, Seimens and Tandon units). > > The hard drive I'm less sure about. Looks like a proprietary interface of > some sort. Can anyone tell me more about it? > > Does anyone have a spare 820-II drive enclosure they'd like to part with? > > Lastly, will Imagedisk support creation of a system disk on an 8" drive > attached to a Compaticard IV? > > Steve > I have a spare unit that has inoperative drives you can have. It's currently in storage, but I believe it has 2 of the 8" floppy drives installed. I think you can substitute a Shugart SA-1000 10mb hard drive for one of the floppy drives, but you'll need a SASI interface card too. I'm currently in the process of archiving a large group of 820-II 8" floppies with Imagedisk and it's going well, so I'm sure you'll be able to go the other way and create a system disk with your compaticard. The majority are DS/DD so I have a Shugart 851 interfaced to my PC. Richard Lynch From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 01:58:06 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:58:06 +0200 Subject: KM11s and the PDP-11/20 (was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Josh and Ethan and all readers :-) I also got the KM11 from Guy, only the bare boards. I still need to assemble them. I did not buy the switches ... I am moving bit by bit my collection to a new home 40 km further up north in Holland. I have an 11/20 which might require some work, and indeed my 11/20 also has "memory problems": none present at all. I will not search for quad-sized core memory sets for the 11/20, but use an expander box (plus BC11 cable) and some simple MOS memory modules. When I'll start working on the 11/20, I might have a few questions ... Anyway, are you sure you want M920's Ethan? Not M9202's? That's almost the same issue as G727A (knocklebusters) vs. G7273's. But if you really want M920's, I can miss two of those, maybe 3, I'd have to check. Just let me know! - Henk, PA8PDP. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:55:18 -0400 > Subject: KM11s and the PDP-11/20 (was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V...) > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> There's also an interesting Unibus analyzer made by Guy Sotomayor... >>>> http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus%20Analyzer.html. >>> >>> I have one of those boards, but since I got it from Guy as a bare >>> board, I still have to assemble mine... >> >> The KM11 looks like it may be very useful for getting my 11/40's CPU running >> again... anyone have any experiences to share using one of these? > > No. I wish I did, but I got a pair of KM-11s since I have several DEC > devices which can use them (RX01, RK11-C, RK11-D, PDP-11/05, > PDP-11/20). I don't happen to have an 11/40. > > The primary purpose for my KM11s, was to facilitate the restoration of > my 11/20 - it was butchered and dumped prior to me acquiring it (I > rescued it from the skip at work, already in many pieces), and to > attempt to get my RK11-C working (it arrived from the same place > intact, but is suffering from some visible corrosion on the pins of > the backplane, so I don't know if I'll ever get it working reliably). > I don't need to do much RX01 electronic repair (a new drive motor and > a new stepper motor would go a long way to returning both sides of a > dual drive to work, but the boards seem intact); however, I think it'd > be cool to watch the drive work by observing the blinkenlights. > > These items are way, way down on my DEC list (I have PDP-8s to work on > first), but someday the 11/20 will bubble up to the surface. I know I > don't have all the core that originally came with it - one of my > cow-orkers souvenired it 20 years ago. I have the backplanes and the > driver boards, but am missing at least one 4K core plane. My _hope_ > for this system is to get an older version of RT-11 up on it first, > then *perhaps* if I can get enough memory on it and some compatible > disk device, see if there's an ancient-enough version of UNIX in the > PUPS archive to run on it (it would have to be a version from 1971 or > 1972, IIRC, to fit on a KA-11 w/16-bit address bus). I don't know > that it's possible, but it's a goal. > > First, though, I have a lot of reconstruction to do on the 11/20. > IIRC, I will need some PSUs to get the ball rolling, since that's what > I think was yanked from it before it was trashed. I think I have the > CPU box plus two memory boxes (the size of 3 BA-11s, essentially), but > I don't recall the PSU model number off the top of my head - it's one > that supports multiple single-height power cards in a series of > DD-11C-sized 4-slot hex-height backplanes. Oh... I probably don't > have enough M920s to reconnect everything - I don't think many of them > were in the dumpster with the CPU. > > *Sigh* > > The missing parts is why I never did much with it. Maybe I'm better > off trying to recycle the front panel and drive it from something > modern. The chances of finding multiple PSUs and short Unibus > interconnects that aren't already in an 11/20 seem small these days. > > -ethan From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Apr 14 04:12:03 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale Message-ID: I have an Apple Lisa 1 for sale. Yes, it has the Twiggy drives. It includes the Twiggy systems OS disks (2), original Lisa 1 manual, keyboard, original Lisa (rectangular button) mouse. It works. Excellent condition. Normally I would not so brazenly hawk something but I need to raise funds for an imminent move of the VCF archives. I'm entertaining any and all offers. At a minimum, there should be three zeroes before the decimal point. Please contact me directly if you're interested. Photos and more detail will be forwarded upon request. Will ship galaxy-wide. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lists at databasics.us Tue Apr 14 04:38:46 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:38:46 -1000 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm entertaining any and all offers. At a minimum, there should be three zeroes before the decimal point. > About all I can offer at this point, while meeting your criterion, is $000.95. I hope you entertain this offer, or vice versa. > Please contact me directly if you're interested. Photos and more detail > will be forwarded upon request. > > Will ship galaxy-wide. > Back in time, as well? I'd like to get it about 1972.... Warren From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 14 06:17:17 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:17:17 +0100 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> References: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> Message-ID: <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: >> I'm entertaining any and all offers. At a minimum, there should be >> three zeroes before the decimal point. >> > About all I can offer at this point, while meeting your criterion, is > $000.95. I hope you entertain this offer, or vice versa. $000.96! :) He also didn't mention a specific currency, so how about 1000.00 Japanese Yen (about ?6)? Or perhaps 1000.00 Indian Rupees (about ?13)? :) :) :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 14 06:27:19 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:27:19 -0400 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> References: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49E47317.4010605@snarc.net> >>> He also didn't mention a specific currency, so how about 1000.00 Japanese Yen (about ?6)? Nor did he specify decimal notation. :) From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 07:25:06 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:25:06 -0400 Subject: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <75908.59122.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <75908.59122.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My favorite of *ALL* time, is the Playstation 3 *BOX* that went for $5,000.00 USD$ No Joke! yep, a box. empty cardboard box. the ad on flebay was riddled with giant red and flashing letters saying "this is *ONLY* a box!" there's no way you could miss it. sold for 5 grand... and another item (worth maybe $100) went for 14 grand.... stupid people, oh yeah. Dan. > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:37:29 -0700 > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > you know in all fairness, there are only so many promises even ePay can keep. If someone is unaware, or rather just unprepared to deal w/some risk, uh well, too bad ya big baby. And moreover if you're inclined to believe their line of bull, you're worse off then that. > In truth though, I've had B-E-T-T-E-R transactions from dealings off of eBay. You do the analysis. It's true. I'm sorry but it's true. Too often (and this is going back years and years, not just recently) someone will put some piece of crap on eBay, and watch the bidding go up, up, and away. The temptation is too much the next time they chance upon some piece of crap left out in the trash. And there's this layer of insulation where you don't have to face the buyer. You can assuage your conscience by saying the bidder just didn't ask enough questions. > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, der Mouse wrote: > > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: I [don't] hate E-Bay (was Cromemco 68000 on ebay) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 3:55 PM > > > First, re: "I hate [ebay] because it defrauded me in 2005", that is, > > in all probability, BS. E-Bay didn't defraud you, the other party > > (buyer or seller) did. > > But if ebay makes promises which it doesn't keep - such as promising to > protect each party against the other - then that too is fraudulent. > (Whether ebay does make such promises I don't know, but I've certainly > seen enough stories to make me think it doesn't deliver if so.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Experience all of the new features, and Reconnect with your life. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650730 From mikelee at tdh.com Tue Apr 14 07:46:27 2009 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:46:27 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> References: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49E485A3.40906@tdh.com> I would have to assume Sellam means dollar for the currency. With that said, I have a 200,000 Zimbabwe dollar bill on my fridge. Joking aside, quite an iconic piece of computer history. Seems lately, overseas private and public collectors are buying a bunch of this type of stuff. In case anyone was truly curious: 200,000 Zimbabwe Dollar = 0.005346 US Dollar Philip Pemberton wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: >> Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> I'm entertaining any and all offers. At a minimum, there should be >>> three zeroes before the decimal point. >>> >> About all I can offer at this point, while meeting your criterion, is >> $000.95. I hope you entertain this offer, or vice versa. > > $000.96! :) > > He also didn't mention a specific currency, so how about 1000.00 > Japanese Yen (about ?6)? > > Or perhaps 1000.00 Indian Rupees (about ?13)? > > :) :) :) > From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Apr 14 07:58:43 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:58:43 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/M progress and problems Message-ID: <1239713923.6103.137.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> I've now finished the rebuild of the PSU for my PDP-8/M and have reassembled the chassis and put in a minimal card set consisting of the KK8-E CPU and a 8KW core set. The machine is now semi-operational but I have the following issues left to resolve: 1. Sometimes (generally the first time) when I power the machine on, the RUN light is on and the console is unresponsive to any stimulus (inc halt), although I can cycle the rotary switch to see the various registers/states. Generally if I power cycle, it is fine. Does this indicate power supply instability? I'm guessing the second time I power on, the capacitors are still charged up from the previous powering. 2. Switch 4 doesn't appear to be working (can't set bit 4 for the accumulator or deposits). I've confirmed the switch itself is ok, so think I have a logic problem. Does anyone have schematics for the KC8ML? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:15:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:15:59 -0400 Subject: KM11s and the PDP-11/20 (was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/14/09, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Hi Josh and Ethan and all readers :-) Hi, Henk, > I also got the KM11 from Guy, only the bare boards. I still need to > assemble them. I did not buy the switches ... I think I have all the parts on hand except the switches. > I have an 11/20 which might require some work, and indeed my 11/20 > also has "memory problems": none present at all. Hmm... that's a problem. ;-) > I will not search > for quad-sized core memory sets for the 11/20, but use an expander > box (plus BC11 cable) and some simple MOS memory modules. Fair enough. I have enough parts (and BA-11ME cabinets) to put some core memory on mine, but unless I happen to find a 4K core stack (or perhaps _any_ core stack to swap with my former co-worker that has the one - it's just a wall-hanging to him), I'll probably go for 16kW or 24kW. > When I'll > start working on the 11/20, I might have a few questions ... I'm sure I'll be in the same boat when I get to that point, too. You'll probably get there first, so I'll be interested to hear what questions you come up with. Mine is missing the H720 PSUs (I looked it up last night in the copy of the PDP-11 handbook on Gordon Bell's webpage), but I think I have the single-height paddle cards to get the power into the individual backplanes, or at least some of them. > Anyway, are you sure you want M920's Ethan? Not M9202's? > That's almost the same issue as G727A (knocklebusters) vs. G7273's. Yes. I really want the short, stubby M920s. I've already had one off-list offer for some at a good price and a lead on some others. The M9202s are great for newer systems where you might be reconfiguring things often (11/24, 11/34...), but the M920s are period for the 11/20. > But if you really want M920's, I can miss two of those, maybe 3, > I'd have to check. Just let me know! Why don't you check and let me know off-list what you find. Thanks, -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:56:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:56:03 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: <49E485A3.40906@tdh.com> References: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> <49E485A3.40906@tdh.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904140656j16b49456l70ef34c35e83f0c7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Michael Lee wrote: > In case anyone was truly curious: > 200,000 Zimbabwe Dollar = 0.005346 US Dollar Before or after the devaluation? ;-) http://humorland.wordmess.net/20081025/what-the-real-crisis-is-like/ brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:56:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:56:03 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: <49E485A3.40906@tdh.com> References: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> <49E485A3.40906@tdh.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904140656j16b49456l70ef34c35e83f0c7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Michael Lee wrote: > In case anyone was truly curious: > 200,000 Zimbabwe Dollar = 0.005346 US Dollar Before or after the devaluation? ;-) http://humorland.wordmess.net/20081025/what-the-real-crisis-is-like/ brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 09:09:20 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:09:20 -0400 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) Message-ID: On 4/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: > I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner that I have is a bit > difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan. Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the information density on a fiche is rather high. Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes last week and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know it's far from the only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone has an electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or an interesting Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to read through. What I have is one 3-ring binder with a special fiche-storage insert - you can read the top 1/4" to see that you have the right fiche, and the lower 90% is protected from dust and scratches. There's at least 20 fiche to a "page" in the notebook, and it's one or two "pages". Elsewhere, I know I have VMS 4.0 and probably other versions of source fiche. Of course, I do have a reader (more than one), but looking at things on a modern machine without having to go to where the gear is, make room to set the reader up, etc., means that most of the time, the fiche just sit - no casual browsing and no easy way to share or preserve the contents. I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist, reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan, but those letters are awful tiny. If I were on the left coast, I might consider volunteering to drive the scanner just to be able to share the results. I have a pile of fiche myself, mostly from the late 1970s through the mid-1980s, IBM and DEC docs primarily, and it would be great to know that it's not only accessible as slivers of film. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 09:09:10 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:09:10 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904140656j16b49456l70ef34c35e83f0c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <49E459A6.6000707@databasics.us> <49E470BD.6090006@philpem.me.uk> <49E485A3.40906@tdh.com> <6dbe3c380904140656j16b49456l70ef34c35e83f0c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E49906.9050204@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Michael Lee wrote: >> In case anyone was truly curious: >> 200,000 Zimbabwe Dollar = 0.005346 US Dollar > > Before or after the devaluation? ;-) Well it's all just bits of paper and a belief system anyway - maybe Sellam's better off just giving the Lisa to whoever's handling his archive move :-) (on a serious note, good luck finding a buyer Sellam - I suspect there's still a lot of folk out there with some very deep pockets!) cheers J. From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Apr 14 09:30:01 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:30:01 -0500 Subject: speaking of PDP11s - looking for working KD11-B (11/05 or 11/10) boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E49DE9.4010406@ubanproductions.com> I'm looking for a working KD11-B (11/05 or 11/10) board set (M7260 and M7261)... Please contact me directly if you can help. --tnx --tom From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 14 09:36:53 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:36:53 +0100 Subject: pdp-8/e fault In-Reply-To: <49D74483.9090505@hachti.de> References: <5439604478BD4EA49617D06A81910BEA@EDIConsultingLtd.local><49C956E9.9030501@nktelco.net> <49D74483.9090505@hachti.de> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply. The list backlog and subsequent mail tsunami means it's a while since I last had a go at the system. I'll run it up tonight and verify what happens. Here's what I can remember. In the manual there's a simple test which counts up in the accumulator. It's entered through the switch register. First you set the switch register to 0000 (Octal) and press the load address. Next you set up the first instruction in the SR and then lift DEP (deposit). The address is auto incremented by one and you enter the next instruction. After the last instruction is in then you load the start address and hit clear and continue and it should count up. It was working but it stopped. If you do examine rather than start you find the memory locations are (I think) still zero. The memory is core with four sets of three boards (4K) making 16K total. Swapping one set of boards with another makes no difference. The switch reg. must be working because memory addresses can be set up. I suspect the memory data bus or associated buffers may have something to do with it. I'll do a detailed check to-night Regards Rod Smallwood I collect and restore old computer equipment with this logo. [digital] -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann Sent: 04 April 2009 12:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: pdp-8/e fault > Since core > memory reads are destructive, we can eliminate some core issues if you > say that core can be read repeatedly without it's contents changing. It > could be a problem with the path between the switch register and the > memory data bus. But he wrote that the data displays correctly. The 8/e display shows the state of the memory data bus. My first idea would be to check for bad contacts. And think about the memory control. And? Can you read out memory? Does it change? From trag at io.com Tue Apr 14 10:12:36 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:12:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP Laserjet 4 free for pickup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:32:49 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 13 Apr 2009 at 15:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> 60ns EDO perhaps? >> >> > m> > > 3.3 or 5v? The EDO DIMMs I tried should have worked, but didn't even > register. Some additional research is obviously called for. Maybe > it's the "unbuffered" bit. > > Does anyone else find memory module terminology confusing? You might try Kingston's website. If your printer doesn't come up on their memory selector, give their 800 number a call. I have found them to be unfailingly polite and helpful in assisting me when I want to know what memory will work with something obscure. Some times the answer is, "We don't know." But they've admitted that in a competent way, as opposed to trying to sleaze their way through. And if I can supply some technical details they'll sometimes make an educated guess with caveats. That's how I found the memory module for the Kyocera C170N. There's some info on Kyocera's spec sheet about the type of module used. The Kingston guy didn't have any info on that printer yet, but thought that one or both of two of their modules would likely work. At that point, I had the choice of buying one directly from Kingston with a nice return option if it didn't work, or gambling and buying it from a discounter at a lower price with a less friendly return policy. Jeff Walther From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 14 10:26:44 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:26:44 -0300 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) References: Message-ID: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> > I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't > mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist, > reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's > unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan, > but those letters are awful tiny. Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner with negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill A digital camera in front of the reader, page after page, in a darkened room would do miracles. A professional (high-quality, etc) DV camera feeding directly a computer in front of the reader also would do miracles. Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them. Is there an automatic scanner? Alexandre, PU1BZZ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 14 10:53:09 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:53:09 -0700 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <49E4B165.5010002@bitsavers.org> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them. Is there an > automatic scanner? Yes, there are step and repeat scanners made by companies like Canon and Mekel. They are expensive. I have a first generation model Mekel that I paid over 10 thousand dollars for (which is a fraction of its new price). DEC used very small frames which require a lot of fiddling to get the parameters set correctly. Scanning services exist, but the test scans I got from them were not well aligned. I have fiche for most of the RSX and VMS releases up through 5.0, and several sets of the blue FE fiche kits, layered products, etc, etc but it takes a VERY long time to do anything with them. Since I can scan thousands of pages of paper per day, guess what gets done? The "low cost" (ie. 1000$) scanners are modified desktop fiche readers that work like the xerographic fiche printers (mirror which flips to a drum) and are manual positioning. As I've found with paper scanners, the low-cost ones are barely usable. You need to find a "pro" one used to get any sort of throughput, then enjoy expensive or non-existant hardware support (the Panasonic KV-S3065 I'm using now is the first scanner I've had that I was able to get a real service manual for) and expensive software (the blueprint scanning software cost as much as I paid for the scanner). From wulfcub at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 10:54:09 2009 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:54:09 -0500 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: >> I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner that I have is a bit >> difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan. > > Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the > information density on a fiche is rather high. Even a decent, older fiche scanner can bring over $15kUS for the complete package, with brand new models going anywhere from $30k to $50k or higher for one with moderate bells and whistles. But they're built to do a paritcular job, and they do it well. The data density on microfiche ranges from moderate, say 100 8.5x11 source pages per fiche, up to several hundred pages per fiche. To be able to scan such a broad range and still pick out the characters reliably is quite a feat. A big part of the problem with scanning tech docs from fiche lies in the fact that it's difficult to lays hands on high quality duplicates. Silver originals or even silver duplicates would be the best case scenario, but don't really see them being made available for scanning. Companies are reluctant enough to release master copies for first generation duplication. All of that having been said, I do have direct access to a fiche scanner. Given decent, consistant fiche, it takes just over a minute to scan a full fiche, at 300dpi (original. Scan an 8.5x11 image from a fiche, print it back out at 300dpi, and you'll have an 8.5x11 document), bitonal. Greyscale takes a bit longer, but is sometimes well worth the extra time investment. If anyone is interested, I can entertain work requests as side-jobs. However, I cannot do it for free. I still have to pay a use fee to my company for use of the equipment. If anyone is interested, contact me at this email address ( wulfcub at gmail.com ) --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 10:52:00 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:52:00 -0500 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't >> mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist, >> reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's >> unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan, >> but those letters are awful tiny. > > Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner > with negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5". I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like, but not so long ago consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that kind of density; even the ones coming somewhere close were relying on lots of interpolation rather than raw resolution. > Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them. Is there an > automatic scanner? Ones that'll handle the resolution are around, but probably with dollar price tags in the five-figure range. (Again, it was a few years ago I looked into this, so my knowledge is a little out of date) Somewhere in there archives there's a whole thread on this (Bletchley has many, many boxes of DEC fiche) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 11:36:22 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:36:22 -0400 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/09, Jules Richardson wrote: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't > > > mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist, > > > reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's > > > unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan, > > > but those letters are awful tiny. > > > > Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner > with negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill No. Check the list archives for endless discussion of the issue. > The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, > something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5". I don't remember the numbers, but, yes, they are high density and high resolution. > I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like, but not so long > ago consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that kind of density; even the > ones coming somewhere close were relying on lots of interpolation rather > than raw resolution. I am reasonably certain that the individual letters are small enough that even "modern" consumer grade scanning gear will make a hash of things. Please note that at no time did I ever propose using anything other than professional grade gear on these fiche. I remember the endless debates and I wasn't trying to suggest that we've miraculously come into an era of new techniques. Consumer-grade hardware has gotten lots cheaper (my first scanner was $800), but the quality has bottomed-out to "adequate to make copies for later reprinting". Slide scanners are pretty good these days, but they are optimized for a 35mm frame, and even then the attention is on color reproduction and dust/scratch elimination, not resolving details a few hundred microns across. > > Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them. Is there an > automatic scanner? > > Ones that'll handle the resolution are around, but probably with dollar > price tags in the five-figure range. (Again, it was a few years ago I looked > into this, so my knowledge is a little out of date) I think that's still accurate information. > Somewhere in there archives there's a whole thread on this (Bletchley has > many, many boxes of DEC fiche) Yep. Anyone who wants to make a "suggestion" should check the archives to see what was already proposed before. -ethan From spedraja at ono.com Tue Apr 14 11:53:07 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:53:07 +0200 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Development Set (and others) in 5'25 disks Message-ID: Hello. I've recently acquired one AT&T / Olivetti in perfect shape. It has installed the 3.5 version of the AT&T Unix and is fault of the Development Set for this release. Someone has this and other software available for this machine in 5'25 format, please ? Let me know. Thanks in advance Sergio From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 14 12:11:22 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:11:22 -0500 Subject: Fiche scanning In-Reply-To: <49E4B165.5010002@bitsavers.org> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B165.5010002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49E4C3BA.1010201@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: ... > Yes, there are step and repeat scanners made by companies like Canon > and Mekel. They are expensive. I have a first generation model Mekel > that I paid over 10 thousand dollars for (which is a fraction of its > new price). DEC used very small frames which require a lot of fiddling > to get the parameters set correctly. Scanning services exist, but the > test scans I got from them were not well aligned. This might be way off base since I don't know the particulars, but is it not possible to overscan each page and then crop after it is in digital form? Why spend a long time fiddling trying to center and align each page optically? Also, I'd be willing to kick into a fund to hire a kid to sit and do the fiddly stuff, and I bet others would too. There is no reason for you to spend your time doing monkey work, Al. Sitting around listening to music doing a non-taxing work for $10/hr would be a dream job, it seems, for a typical 14 year old. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Apr 14 12:11:28 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:11:28 -0500 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92DE1048-8C29-4FE3-A4E2-20D7C0DFD67F@lunar-tokyo.net> I have fiche of the System/34 SSP. I keep wanting to make an emulator with it someday. I gather it isn't rare because it came from a service bureau. On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: >> I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner that I have is >> a bit >> difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and >> scan. > > Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the > information density on a fiche is rather high. > > Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes last week > and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know it's far from the > only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone has an > electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or an interesting > Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to read through. > > What I have is one 3-ring binder with a special fiche-storage insert - > you can read the top 1/4" to see that you have the right fiche, and > the lower 90% is protected from dust and scratches. There's at least > 20 fiche to a "page" in the notebook, and it's one or two "pages". > > Elsewhere, I know I have VMS 4.0 and probably other versions of source > fiche. Of course, I do have a reader (more than one), but looking at > things on a modern machine without having to go to where the gear is, > make room to set the reader up, etc., means that most of the time, the > fiche just sit - no casual browsing and no easy way to share or > preserve the contents. > > I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't > mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist, > reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's > unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan, > but those letters are awful tiny. > > If I were on the left coast, I might consider volunteering to drive > the scanner just to be able to share the results. I have a pile of > fiche myself, mostly from the late 1970s through the mid-1980s, IBM > and DEC docs primarily, and it would be great to know that it's not > only accessible as slivers of film. > > -ethan From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 12:38:18 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) Message-ID: <638856.90089.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Ethan, I have some small experience in fiche scanning. Several years ago I was researching/writing a biographical essay on an interesting scholar and adventurer in my family. His published writings were in the 19th and early 20th century, and mostly available only on microfiche. I'd suggest checking with your local university. I lucked out at a local university (SDSU, in San Diego). I found a fiche printer with a add-on which wrote the image off to disk. It wasn't automatic but as I recall it was about 2min/page for scan to writing the disk. The images were very good; had the typefaces not been antique, I could have applied OCR in my own office. I suspect that the technology will be vastly improved and available for use. Good luck. Vern Wright --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 7:09 AM > On 4/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner > that I have is a bit > > difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet > to set up and scan. > > Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being > difficult - the > information density on a fiche is rather high. > > Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes > last week > and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know > it's far from the > only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone > has an > electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or > an interesting > Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to > read through. > > What I have is one 3-ring binder with a special > fiche-storage insert - > you can read the top 1/4" to see that you have the > right fiche, and > the lower 90% is protected from dust and scratches. > There's at least > 20 fiche to a "page" in the notebook, and > it's one or two "pages". > > Elsewhere, I know I have VMS 4.0 and probably other > versions of source > fiche. Of course, I do have a reader (more than one), but > looking at > things on a modern machine without having to go to where > the gear is, > make room to set the reader up, etc., means that most of > the time, the > fiche just sit - no casual browsing and no easy way to > share or > preserve the contents. > > I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and > I don't > mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners > exist, > reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. > It's > unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get > a good scan, > but those letters are awful tiny. > > If I were on the left coast, I might consider volunteering > to drive > the scanner just to be able to share the results. I have a > pile of > fiche myself, mostly from the late 1970s through the > mid-1980s, IBM > and DEC docs primarily, and it would be great to know that > it's not > only accessible as slivers of film. > > -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 12:38:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:38:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Apr 13, 9 07:13:57 pm Message-ID: > The KM11 looks like it may be very useful for getting my 11/40's CPU > running again... anyone have any experiences to share using one of these? Not an an 11/40, but I've used one on an 11/45, the FPU for that machine, an RK11-C and an RX01 (at least). It's very useful on all those devices for monitoring flags, single-stepping, and so on. I am sure it's useful on an 11/40 too. I built my own KM11 clone (in fact I think the one that;'s now available on the web is based on that design), and was then given a couple of genuine ones.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 12:21:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:21:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Apr 13, 9 12:26:10 pm Message-ID: > Thanks -- just tried this, and I still get the same behavior from the > CPU. ACLO and DCLO are now pulled high. Well, this is going to be a And waht behaviour is that? Can you do anything from the front panel, for example? > fun project :). Guess I need to start debugging the CPU, any > suggestions on where to start? (Anyone have a Unibus extender card?) I haev most of the DEC extender cards (single, dual, quad, hex), but that's not a lot of use to you :-) I trick I commonly use if I don't have the right extender card is to pull the board I want to work on and solder lengths of wire to useful points on that PCB. Then put the board back in place, make sure the wires aren't shorting to anything and then power up. I can then connect my test gear to the free ends of the wires. It's slower than using an extender card, of course, but typically I only need 2 or thre 'goes' (pull board, solder on half a dozen wires, put it back, test) to find the fault. =tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 12:35:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:35:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <49E3BE1A.3050300@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 13, 9 05:35:06 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > All I have to do is box it up. The new board will have to go in a plastic > > box screwed to the top of the keyboard. But I want to get things just > > right before I start drilling holes. > > Yick... if you have to screw it, can't it be on the back - or some form of > trailing cable so that a future owner can put things back to original should > they want to? At least somebody reads my postings :-) I thought long and hard about this. Putting it on the bottom is difficult, since you don't want the keybaord tilted at a stupid angle. The back is impossible, the back of the HP150 keyboard is a clip-on cable cover, so it's not rigid enough to fix things to. I really don't want a separate box either. As it is, the modifications will only really be to the keyboard top case, which is, IIRC, the same top case as is used on the HP46020 HP-HIL keyboard, so it's not hat hard to find a spare. And these mods will consist of cutting away some of the plastic (hidden by said clip-on cover) to allow the ribbon cable to exit, and 4 3mm holes on top. These could be filled and painted over, or used to attach a nameplate, or something if you wanted to reverse the mod. Reversing the electical modification, of course, is simply a matter of unplugging a 14 pio DIL header from a socket on the keyboard PCB and plugging a 4024 counter chip in place of it. Anyway, I have 3 HP150 keybaords (one missing a keycap IIRC) and 2 HP150s, so I have enough bits to have an oriignal keyboard per machine if I want to. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 14 12:56:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner with > negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill > > A digital camera in front of the reader, page after page, in a darkened > room would do miracles. A professional (high-quality, etc) DV camera feeding > directly a computer in front of the reader also would do miracles. I've had this done for me for some historical fiche for something I'm writing. The photo's were taken with a 6MP Nikon D70s. It works, but it is far from ideal. Still it is preferable to the cost of printing out the individual sheets if you have someone that will be visiting a library with a copy of the fiche you need. Room illumination would have been standard for the library the fiche was at. To do it right, even this solution isn't cheap. You need a good camera with either a remote, or wired trigger, and the camera needs to be on a tripod. I have my doubts this would work well for anything like source code fiche. DEC fiche tends to be very small. Zane From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Apr 14 13:49:56 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:49:56 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E4DAD4.6090900@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> Thanks -- just tried this, and I still get the same behavior from the >> CPU. ACLO and DCLO are now pulled high. Well, this is going to be a >> > > And waht behaviour is that? Can you do anything from the front panel, for > example? > > Ah, sorry - got lost in earlier threads. I get a few seemingly random lights on the front panel -- always the same ones, though: The "Run," "Bus," "User," and "Console" status lights are always lit, as are bits 17, 10, 8, and 7 of the address, and bit 14 of the data. The console is completely unresponsive, nothing has any effect. >> fun project :). Guess I need to start debugging the CPU, any >> suggestions on where to start? (Anyone have a Unibus extender card?) >> > > I haev most of the DEC extender cards (single, dual, quad, hex), but that's > not a lot of use to you :-) > > I trick I commonly use if I don't have the right extender card is to pull > the board I want to work on and solder lengths of wire to useful points > on that PCB. Then put the board back in place, make sure the wires aren't > shorting to anything and then power up. I can then connect my test gear > to the free ends of the wires. > If I was as good at this as you, then that might work for me :). As it is, I'm hoping that once I get some extender boards I can start debugging with my logic analyzer and learn how to work on this machine as I go along. > It's slower than using an extender card, of course, but typically I only > need 2 or thre 'goes' (pull board, solder on half a dozen wires, put it > back, test) to find the fault. > Can I fly you out here to fix mine? :) > =tony > > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 14 14:19:21 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:19:21 -0300 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard References: Message-ID: <15aa01c9bd36$a281a9a0$791819bb@DeskJara> > At least somebody reads my postings :-) Lots of people do, you know :) > I really don't want a separate box either. Why not small enough to be put on the keyboard? Do it with a SMD IC :) > cover) to allow the ribbon cable to exit, and 4 3mm holes on top. These > could be filled and painted over, or used to attach a nameplate, or > something if you wanted to reverse the mod. I like to put 4 screws on the board with 2 nuts each, and glue the screws with epoxy on the box. It make nice 4 studs for the board and is completely reversible. And you see nothing from the outside :o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 14 14:17:26 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:17:26 -0300 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec'sfor 11/70) References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15a901c9bd36$a1a3f3d0$791819bb@DeskJara> > The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, > something > like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5". > I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like, but not so long > ago > consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that kind of density; even the > ones > coming somewhere close were relying on lots of interpolation rather than > raw > resolution. There IS something that can be done, although very troublesome. You have the reader. It projects a fairly good image on the screen. Why not turn the lamp of the scanner off and scan the screen? :o) From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Apr 14 14:33:14 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:33:14 -0400 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E4DAD4.6090900@mail.msu.edu> References: <49E4DAD4.6090900@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200904141533.14456.rtellason@verizon.net> > > It's slower than using an extender card, of course, but typically I only > > need 2 or thre 'goes' (pull board, solder on half a dozen wires, put it > > back, test) to find the fault. > > Can I fly you out here to fix mine? :) > > > =tony I'm closer, it'd probably be cheaper. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Apr 14 14:20:51 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:20:51 -0300 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Development Set (and others) in 5'25 disks References: Message-ID: <15ab01c9bd36$a3f0ca00$791819bb@DeskJara> > Hello. I've recently acquired one AT&T / Olivetti in perfect shape. It has > installed the 3.5 version of the AT&T Unix and is fault of the Development > Set for this release. Someone has this and other software available for > this > machine in 5'25 format, please ? Let me know. Hmmm...maybe you speak portuguese :o) Com certeza sim :o) It is MISSING the development set, not fault :) From spedraja at ono.com Tue Apr 14 15:37:38 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:37:38 +0200 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Development Set (and others) in 5'25 disks In-Reply-To: <15ab01c9bd36$a3f0ca00$791819bb@DeskJara> References: <15ab01c9bd36$a3f0ca00$791819bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: Yes, you're right. Excuse me. Sergio 2009/4/14 Alexandre Souza > Hello. I've recently acquired one AT&T / Olivetti in perfect shape. It >> has >> installed the 3.5 version of the AT&T Unix and is fault of the Development >> Set for this release. Someone has this and other software available for >> this >> machine in 5'25 format, please ? Let me know. >> > > Hmmm...maybe you speak portuguese :o) Com certeza sim :o) It is MISSING > the development set, not fault :) > > From hamren at sdu.se Tue Apr 14 17:01:42 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:01:42 +0200 Subject: Needed: TI SIlent 700 ASR service manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E507C6.5080005@sdu.se> I recently got a TI Silent 700 ASR; thats the one with two cassette drives on top. It is more or less dead, so I need a service manual. Does anyone have it or know of an online copy? Kind regards /Lars Hamr?n From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 14 17:26:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:26:36 -0700 Subject: Needed: TI SIlent 700 ASR service manual In-Reply-To: <49E507C6.5080005@sdu.se> References: , <49E507C6.5080005@sdu.se> Message-ID: <49E4AB2C.5376.10FB5348@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2009 at 0:01, Lars Hamren wrote: > I recently got a TI Silent 700 ASR; thats the one with two cassette > drives on top. It is more or less dead, so I need a service manual. > > Does anyone have it or know of an online copy? There's a manual for the 745 on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/ti/terminal/984025- 9701_743_KSR_745_Portable_Maint_Dec75.pdf Cheers, Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 17:52:08 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE: Diablo Model 630 "operators guide" Message-ID: <395552.17971.qm@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> 30-page Xerox Diablo 630 Communications Terminal Operators Guide from around 1980, yours for the asking. Just pay a dollar or two for snail-mail. Steve in Southern California (OC) 92656 From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Apr 14 17:56:18 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:56:18 -0400 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> References: <49E391D2.9030307@mail.msu.edu> <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49E51492.2090303@nktelco.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > The KM11 looks like it may be very useful for getting my 11/40's CPU > running again... anyone have any experiences to share using one of these? > I would say a pair is a necessary tool for debugging the 11/40 if there is anything wrong beyond power supplies, etc. My PDP-11/40 had a chafed backplane wire that caused it to fail the KT-11D diagnostics. I messed around with it for a month trying to debug the problem. I had no extender cards, so I would tack solder a lead onto the signal I was interested in and then probe it with a scope while a good scope loop program was running. I figured out what the problem was, but not why. Sometimes the Virtual Address was being used when it should have been the Physical Address. I finally built two KM-11s based on some information provided by Tony Duell and the real KM-11 schematics. After I had the KM-11s in hand, I fixed the problem in two evenings. Single stepping through the microcode indicated immediately that a signal was stuck in the same state. I think it was BUPP6 H. Then I had to track down why. I removed all the non-essential cards. Then I replaced the last driver IC for that signal... and nothing worked. I then traced down each backplane connection for that signal and found one that was nicked as it was pulled around a pin. I slipped a bit of Teflon tubing over the pin and all has been well since. Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's notes. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 -chuck From hamren at sdu.se Tue Apr 14 18:08:11 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:08:11 +0200 Subject: Needed: TI Model 733 ASR service manual In-Reply-To: <49E507C6.5080005@sdu.se> References: <49E507C6.5080005@sdu.se> Message-ID: <49E5175B.8000103@sdu.se> I should add that the actual model number for the 700 ASR is 733, which is now reflected in the subject. /Lars Hamr?n From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Apr 14 19:59:50 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:59:50 -0400 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E51492.2090303@nktelco.net> References: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> <49E51492.2090303@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> > Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's notes. > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 Did you make those boards? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Apr 14 20:16:19 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:16:19 -0500 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> <49E51492.2090303@nktelco.net> <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49E53563.30900@ubanproductions.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's notes. >> >> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 > > Did you make those boards? > I made a KM11 based on Tony's design back before Guy had his boards available. You can find information on mine, including the expressPCB layout files here: http://ubanproductions.com/museum.html --tom From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Apr 14 20:25:53 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:25:53 -0400 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E53563.30900@ubanproductions.com> References: <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> <49E53563.30900@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200904142125.53624.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 09:16:19 pm Tom Uban wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's notes. > >> > >> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 > > > > Did you make those boards? > > I made a KM11 based on Tony's design back before Guy had his > boards available. You can find information on mine, including > the expressPCB layout files here: > > http://ubanproductions.com/museum.html > > --tom The comment on your page about the gold-plated edge connectors was one thing that jumped out at me on his boards, which is why I asked. :-) Actually both sets look pretty good to me. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 14 20:31:31 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:31:31 -0700 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <200904142125.53624.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> <49E53563.30900@ubanproductions.com> <200904142125.53624.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5B19B79A-52E9-4405-94A1-5155C183461A@shiresoft.com> I still have board *and* kits available. :-) TTFN - Guy On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 14 April 2009 09:16:19 pm Tom Uban wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's >>>> notes. >>>> >>>> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 >>> >>> Did you make those boards? >> >> I made a KM11 based on Tony's design back before Guy had his >> boards available. You can find information on mine, including >> the expressPCB layout files here: >> >> http://ubanproductions.com/museum.html >> >> --tom > > The comment on your page about the gold-plated edge connectors was > one thing > that jumped out at me on his boards, which is why I asked. :-) > > Actually both sets look pretty good to me. > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Apr 14 20:57:33 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:57:33 -0400 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <5B19B79A-52E9-4405-94A1-5155C183461A@shiresoft.com> References: <200904142125.53624.rtellason@verizon.net> <5B19B79A-52E9-4405-94A1-5155C183461A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200904142157.33467.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 14 April 2009 09:31:31 pm Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I still have board *and* kits available. :-) > > TTFN - Guy I have *no* DEC gear to use 'em in at this point in time, though. :-) > On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Tuesday 14 April 2009 09:16:19 pm Tom Uban wrote: > >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>>> Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's > >>>> notes. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 > >>> > >>> Did you make those boards? > >> > >> I made a KM11 based on Tony's design back before Guy had his > >> boards available. You can find information on mine, including > >> the expressPCB layout files here: > >> > >> http://ubanproductions.com/museum.html > >> > >> --tom > > > > The comment on your page about the gold-plated edge connectors was > > one thing > > that jumped out at me on his boards, which is why I asked. :-) > > > > Actually both sets look pretty good to me. > > > > -- > > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > > Masters" > > - > > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > > lies. --James > > M Dakin -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From djg at pdp8.net Tue Apr 14 21:06:43 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:06:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/M progress and problems Message-ID: <200904150206.n3F26h406156@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >Does anyone have schematics for the KC8ML? > My 8/M has the LED panel http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=224 The bulb panel http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=224 From djg at pdp8.net Tue Apr 14 21:09:52 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:09:52 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Development Set (and others) in 5'25 disks Message-ID: <200904150209.n3F29qr06267@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >Someone has this and other software available for this >machine in 5'25 format, please ? Let me know. > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC/ From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 14 09:23:32 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:23:32 -0700 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E49C64.4000405@jwsss.com> I have an epson perfection scanner which can scan up to 5x7 transparancies. Once I have the template set, I can do a fiche in about 5 min. If you can snag one of these with the appropriate size transparency capability of any size, I recommend getting it, as it is very fast. I don't know what exists for sheet feeders on this scanner, but I would think with a sheet feeder, you could do 10 pages / min minimum for full size sheet scanning as well, not bad considering you could do both. I had one of Al's high speed Ricoh's for a while, and the real problem you get into is that manuals which have been stored for a long time, and are not offset print (ink) but are xerox or such printing the pages will be stuck enough to keep you from using the real full speed of his scanners. I ended up having to do a sheet by sheet feed with mouse clicks per page anyway to scan a manual. Admittedly it was a very fast process, but not that much faster than the above. Jim Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner that I have is a bit >> difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan. >> > > Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the > information density on a fiche is rather high. > > only fiddly if you have crappy scanning software. Some have front ends which show some thought went into actually using the product, and not just printing on the box that "scanner comes with software". Epson's rates highest on my scale for generic software. Jim From michel.mostaert at ing.be Tue Apr 14 22:34:19 2009 From: michel.mostaert at ing.be (michel.mostaert at ing.be) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:34:19 +0200 Subject: Lisa for sale (forward) Message-ID: <7158DE8321393741A8677B5B5B3C67E5820887@ing.com> Hi, I've juste seen your were selling a Lisa at the beginning of march. Is it still available ? Wich one is it ? (Lisa I or Lisa II) ? How much would you sell it ? Were is it stored ? Would it be possible to send it to Belgium ? Thanks by advance, Michel MOSTAERT Contractor Shift Operator OIB TO DOS Team5 Ops&IT Banking/ING Belgium 60, Cours Saint Michel 1040 Brussels, Belgium Tel + 32 2 73 83703 Fax + 32 2 738.35.29 mailto:michel.mostaert at ing.be P Don't print documents unless absolutely necessary. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ATTENTION: The information in this electronic mail message is private and confidential, and only intended for the addressee. Should you receive this message by mistake, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or use of this message is strictly prohibited. Please inform the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or opening it. Messages and attachments are scanned for all viruses known. If this message contains password-protected attachments, the files have NOT been scanned for viruses by the ING mail domain. Always scan attachments before opening them. ----------------------------------------------------------------- From spedraja at ono.com Wed Apr 15 02:08:05 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:08:05 +0200 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Development Set (and others) in 5'25 disks In-Reply-To: <200904150209.n3F29qr06267@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200904150209.n3F29qr06267@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: Thanks, I know it. But I asked for someone to provide me these items in 5'25 format :-) If he/she wants to put a price for it, I'm open for comments. Actually I can't do the job of grab the IMD images in 5'25 diskettes. But, of course: - If someone knows how to install one 3'5 diskette unit in one AT&T 3B1 (being it operative) - If this unit could read 3'5 diskettes on 1'44 Mb - If it would be possible to grab the IMD images of AT&T in bitsavers in 1'44 disks ... I could try it. Kind Regards Sergio 2009/4/15 > >Someone has this and other software available for this > >machine in 5'25 format, please ? Let me know. > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC/ > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 15 07:04:36 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:04:36 +0200 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec'sfor 11/70) In-Reply-To: <15a901c9bd36$a1a3f3d0$791819bb@DeskJara> References: <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> <15a901c9bd36$a1a3f3d0$791819bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20090415120436.GX24910@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2009-04-14 16:17:26 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from > > memory, something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x > > 1.5". I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like, > > but not so long ago consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that > > kind of density; even the ones coming somewhere close were relying > > on lots of interpolation rather than raw resolution. > > You have the reader. It projects a fairly good image on the screen. > Why not turn the lamp of the scanner off and scan the screen? :o) Today's consumer grade scanners seem to not work that way. About a year ago, I removed the glass of my (IIRC) Canon CanoScan LiDE 60. Without the glass, I didn't get anything out of the scanner except a complete solid black page... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: ...und wenn Du denkst, es geht nicht mehr, the second : kommt irgendwo ein Lichtlein her. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 15 07:08:58 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:08:58 +0200 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090415120858.GY24910@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:09:20 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner that I have is a bit > > difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan. > > Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the > information density on a fiche is rather high. > > Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes last week > and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know it's far from the > only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone has an > electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or an interesting > Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to read through. I've just checked out a nearby University's web site. They *seem* to offer access to a microfilm/-fiche scanner that can output to USB (whatever that means)--without any cost. As my girlfriens gives lectures there, I'll have a look at what they actually offer. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: 23:53 <@jbglaw> So, ich kletter' jetzt mal ins Bett. the second : 23:57 <@jever2> .oO( kletter ..., hat er noch Gitter vorm Bett, wie fr?her meine Kinder?) 00:00 <@jbglaw> jever2: *patsch* 00:01 <@jever2> *aua*, wof?r, Gedanken sind frei! 00:02 <@jbglaw> Nee, freie Gedanken, die sind seit 1984 doch aus! 00:03 <@jever2> 1984? ich bin erst seit 1985 verheiratet! From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 15 07:23:21 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:23:21 -0400 Subject: Addon Microsystems information... In-Reply-To: <20090415120436.GX24910@lug-owl.de> References: <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> <15a901c9bd36$a1a3f3d0$791819bb@DeskJara> <20090415120436.GX24910@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <49E5D1B9.2090702@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Sorry if this is a second post. I posted this question last week to the list, but never saw it get posted out for all to read. I am looking for any information or contact info for a small company from around 82-84 called Addon Microsystems, they were a CA. company that developed a CP/M box for Atari. Thanks, Curt From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 15 07:28:58 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:28:58 +0200 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090415122858.GZ24910@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > > The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, > something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5". If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to 1:100 involved. That should tell everybody why even a good consumer-grade scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent of a 300dpi scan, you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any el-cheapo scanner could handle. (Let alone the problem of getting the sheet properly into the light's focus.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Gib Dein Bestes. Dann ?bertriff Dich selbst! the second : From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Apr 15 07:53:25 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:53:25 -0500 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <20090415122858.GZ24910@lug-owl.de> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> <20090415122858.GZ24910@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <49E5D8C5.3000903@pacbell.net> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: >> The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, >> something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5". > > If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to 1:100 > involved. That should tell everybody why even a good consumer-grade > scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent of a 300dpi scan, > you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any el-cheapo scanner could > handle. (Let alone the problem of getting the sheet properly into the > light's focus.) you are confusing linear pixel density with areal pixel density. the 11"x13" fitting in 1"x1.5" implies a 11:1 scaling in density, so 300 dpi would be 3300 dpi. still very high for typical consumer grade scanners. I believe 2400 dpi actual (not interpolated) is available on decent models, though. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 15 08:11:49 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:11:49 +0200 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70) In-Reply-To: <49E5D8C5.3000903@pacbell.net> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com> <20090415122858.GZ24910@lug-owl.de> <49E5D8C5.3000903@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20090415131149.GB24910@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2009-04-15 07:53:25 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from > > > memory, something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x > > > 1.5". > > > > If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to > > 1:100 involved. That should tell everybody why even a good > > consumer-grade scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent > > of a 300dpi scan, you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any > > el-cheapo scanner could handle. (Let alone the problem of getting > > the sheet properly into the light's focus.) > > you are confusing linear pixel density with areal pixel density. > > the 11"x13" fitting in 1"x1.5" implies a 11:1 scaling in density, so > 300 dpi would be 3300 dpi. still very high for typical consumer > grade scanners. I believe 2400 dpi actual (not interpolated) is > available on decent models, though. I don't--but I'm reading the initial comment different than you. I'm reading: "On the fiches, they fit 11x13 (=143) A4 pages into an area of 1"x1.5"=1.5in?." So in the top-bottom direction, we have: (11 * 297mm) : 1.5" = 3267mm : 38.1mm ? 85.75 : 1 ...and for the left-right direction: (13 * 210mm) : 1" = 2730mm : 25.4mm ? 107.48 : 1 MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: 23:53 <@jbglaw> So, ich kletter' jetzt mal ins Bett. the second : 23:57 <@jever2> .oO( kletter ..., hat er noch Gitter vorm Bett, wie fr?her meine Kinder?) 00:00 <@jbglaw> jever2: *patsch* 00:01 <@jever2> *aua*, wof?r, Gedanken sind frei! 00:02 <@jbglaw> Nee, freie Gedanken, die sind seit 1984 doch aus! 00:03 <@jever2> 1984? ich bin erst seit 1985 verheiratet! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Apr 15 08:59:24 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:59:24 -0400 Subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec'sfor 11/70) In-Reply-To: <49E5D8C5.3000903@pacbell.net> References: <119a01c9bd16$2ba2a7a0$791819bb@DeskJara> <49E4B120.3040704@gmail.com><20090415122858.GZ24910@lug-owl.de> <49E5D8C5.3000903@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, > >> something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5". > > > > If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to 1:100 > > involved. That should tell everybody why even a good consumer-grade > > scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent of a 300dpi scan, > > you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any el-cheapo scanner > could > > handle. (Let alone the problem of getting the sheet properly into the > > light's focus.) > > you are confusing linear pixel density with areal pixel density. > > the 11"x13" fitting in 1"x1.5" implies a 11:1 scaling in density, so > 300 > dpi would be 3300 dpi. still very high for typical consumer grade > scanners. I believe 2400 dpi actual (not interpolated) is available on > decent models, though. I think the confusion is in: 'on a fiche around 1" x 1.5"' J-B read that as the size of the whole fiche (with lots of A4 images on it). I think you actually meant that each page image is that size. The truth is most likely in between: page images (on DEC fiche at least) are a bit smaller than that, and also they are usually images of line printer size pages (A3, not A4). So a 2400 dpi scanner is about a factor 3x too low for acceptable quality. (And yes, that ignores other issues like ability to hold the fiche flat enough and focus well enough.) paul From hamren at sdu.se Wed Apr 15 09:30:21 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:30:21 +0200 Subject: Needed: TI Model 733 ASR service manual In-Reply-To: <49E5175B.8000103@sdu.se> References: <49E507C6.5080005@sdu.se> <49E5175B.8000103@sdu.se> Message-ID: <49E5EF7D.7090305@sdu.se> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's a manual for the 745 on bitsavers: Yes, but the 745 is a completely different creature, a small portable machine, while the 733 ASR is definitely not portable. Here is a picture of my 733: http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr-with-casette-drives.jpg Regards /Lars Hamr?n From ray at arachelian.com Wed Apr 15 11:10:02 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:10:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. In-Reply-To: <49E2A332.6090305@cimmeri.com> References: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> <20090412140247.H28688@shell.lmi.net> <49E2A332.6090305@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49E606DA.5070406@arachelian.com> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >> Has anybody installed it on a Mac? > Fred, from what I understand, long ago, attempts were made but > ditched. It's been discussed in the comp.os.cpm group. > > The Mac's hardware isn't particularly well-suited for CPM. Uh, why? And what would stop you from taking the CP/M BIOS and turning it into a standalone application that passes its system calls to Mac OS, and using files as disk images? You might have some fun with supervisor instructions, but you can trap and emulate, it might just work. You wouldn't be running it natively, but that doesn't have to be a requirement. From js at cimmeri.com Wed Apr 15 11:23:14 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:23:14 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. In-Reply-To: <49E606DA.5070406@arachelian.com> References: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> <20090412140247.H28688@shell.lmi.net> <49E2A332.6090305@cimmeri.com> <49E606DA.5070406@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <49E609F2.6030303@cimmeri.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >>> Has anybody installed it on a Mac? >>> >> Fred, from what I understand, long ago, attempts were made but >> ditched. It's been discussed in the comp.os.cpm group. >> >> The Mac's hardware isn't particularly well-suited for CPM. >> > > Uh, why? > > And what would stop you from taking the CP/M BIOS and turning it into a > standalone application that passes its system calls to Mac OS, and using > files as disk images? > You might have some fun with supervisor instructions, but you can trap > and emulate, it might just work. > > You wouldn't be running it natively, but that doesn't have to be a > requirement. I meant it's not well-suited for a native installation. But a standalone-app would be the way go on the Mac. There's a standalone 8080/CPM2.2 emulator for Mac, but no CPM68k one... slightly ironic, since the CPM68k you would think would be easier. jS From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 11:57:55 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:57:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. In-Reply-To: <49E606DA.5070406@arachelian.com> References: <49E216A7.3040104@cimmeri.com> <20090412140247.H28688@shell.lmi.net> <49E2A332.6090305@cimmeri.com> <49E606DA.5070406@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0904150957m37f23f2bxe8f5ee3e36d4cc05@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:10, Ray Arachelian wrote: > And what would stop you from taking the CP/M BIOS and turning it into a > standalone application that passes its system calls to Mac OS, and using > files as disk images? > You might have some fun with supervisor instructions, but you can trap > and emulate, it might just work. > > You wouldn't be running it natively, but that doesn't have to be a > requirement. That's how Mac Minix ran AFAICR. I think it was reasonably well behaving too wrt the finder. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 15 12:03:33 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Cromemco DPU. In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0904150957m37f23f2bxe8f5ee3e36d4cc05@mail.gmail.com> from Joachim Thiemann at "Apr 15, 9 12:57:55 pm" Message-ID: <200904151703.n3FH3XPm012656@floodgap.com> > > And what would stop you from taking the CP/M BIOS and turning it into a > > standalone application that passes its system calls to Mac OS, and using > > files as disk images? > > You might have some fun with supervisor instructions, but you can trap > > and emulate, it might just work. > > > > You wouldn't be running it natively, but that doesn't have to be a > > requirement. > > That's how Mac Minix ran AFAICR. I think it was reasonably well > behaving too wrt the finder. MachTen also did something similar. http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/ To make a CPM-68K for the Mac, the NetBSD approach might be more useful, where there is a standalone app that basically simply takes over and doesn't release the machine. It can then do whatever it wants. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 15 10:03:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:03:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <15aa01c9bd36$a281a9a0$791819bb@DeskJara> from "Alexandre Souza" at Apr 14, 9 04:19:21 pm Message-ID: > > > At least somebody reads my postings :-) > > Lots of people do, you know :) I'd better carry on posting, then :-) > > > I really don't want a separate box either. > > Why not small enough to be put on the keyboard? Do it with a SMD IC :) Many reasons. There isn't that much space inside the HP150 keyboard, I guess it could fit if I used SMD parts (but there may not be enough headroom for a socketed PLCC EPROM). It's a lot harder to prototype with SMD parts in my experience. I can wire up through-hole devices on stripboard in a couple of hours, testing as I go. If I used SMD, I'd have to lay out a PCB (takes a lot longer than running wires!), either etch it or more likely send the design off somewhere and get the board back a week later, and then I'd have to debug it, and repeat the PCB production when I'd found I'd made a mistake (rememebr that in this case I didn't have a documented interface I was connecting to, I had to make assumptions as to how the HP150/HP120 keyboard microcontroller behaved). And as I mentioned I did make a few modificuations while tracking down a problem which turned out to be a dodgy keyswitch on the HP150 keyboard. Doing that with SMD parts would have been a lot harder And if you think I can afford to prototype with through-hole and then make an SMD version, think again! At least not for a one-off like this. And of course, when doing mods like this I like to use components that were around at the time the machine was made, in packages that were currently used. SMD was not common at the time of the HP120/HP150. > > > cover) to allow the ribbon cable to exit, and 4 3mm holes on top. These > > could be filled and painted over, or used to attach a nameplate, or > > something if you wanted to reverse the mod. > > I like to put 4 screws on the board with 2 nuts each, and glue the > screws with epoxy on the box. It make nice 4 studs for the board and is > completely reversible. And you see nothing from the outside :o) I prefer to use screws than glue. I've had glue (all types) fail at the wrong moment. Not to mention the fact that it's a lot easier to remove screws than undo glue. In fact if a glued assembly fails, I normally try to repair it with nuts and bolts/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 15 09:56:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:56:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E4DAD4.6090900@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Apr 14, 9 11:49:56 am Message-ID: > > And waht behaviour is that? Can you do anything from the front panel, for > > example? > > > > > Ah, sorry - got lost in earlier threads. I get a few seemingly random > lights on the front panel -- always the same ones, though: > > The "Run," "Bus," "User," and "Console" status lights are always lit, as > are bits 17, 10, 8, and 7 of the address, and bit 14 of the data. > > The console is completely unresponsive, nothing has any effect. What, if any, terminator do you have at the far end of the Unibus? If it's an M9302, pull it out for the moment. > > I trick I commonly use if I don't have the right extender card is to pull > > the board I want to work on and solder lengths of wire to useful points > > on that PCB. Then put the board back in place, make sure the wires aren't > > shorting to anything and then power up. I can then connect my test gear > > to the free ends of the wires. > > > If I was as good at this as you, then that might work for me :). As it (1) I am not that good... (2) The only way to get experience (which is really what you need) is to work on these old machines. > is, I'm hoping that once I get some extender boards I can start > debugging with my logic analyzer and learn how to work on this machine > as I go along. There's no doubt that exteneder boards are very useful (why else would I have a set :-)), but it is possible to manage without them. Don't let the lack of an extender board act as an excuse for not getting this amchine going! > > > It's slower than using an extender card, of course, but typically I only > > need 2 or thre 'goes' (pull board, solder on half a dozen wires, put it > > back, test) to find the fault. > > > Can I fly you out here to fix mine? :) In principle yes :-). In practice, there is no way I would get on a plane while the current daft 'security measures' are in effect. I would only consider travelling if I could take my toolkit with me as hand luggage. Period. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 13:37:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:37:39 -0400 Subject: H720 PSU? Message-ID: With the recent discussions of the PDP-11/20, I've been thinking of what all I'll need to gather to restore mine. It's been a long time since I pulled things from the pile, but I'm pretty sure that before it was pitched, the fans and PSUs were harvested. I've found pictures on the 'net of the fans - looking at the wiring, they appear to me to be pretty standard 110VAC boxer fans. ISTR hearing that the fans in the 11/40 or 11/45 are bizarre, but I'm expecting that the fans in the 11/20 are ordinary. This leaves the PSUs. If I were going to go with MOS memory, I wouldn't worry about what to use - the Unibus itself only needs to provide +5V, and +/-15V. Because the 11/20 routinely held core, it's expecting +8V (unreg) plus -22V on top of the usual voltages. Since the "easiest" solution is to get the original equipment reattached, I'm curious how much an H720 might fetch these days. If it's too much, I can always come up with some other way to provide power to run core (or skip the core and use MOS). My question for those that have tried recently, is it feasible to go searching for 1-3 H720 PSUs, or are they old enough that the chances of running across them are slim enough to make building a functional replacement a preferable go (preferable from the standpoint of ever being able to finish). Thanks, -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 14:35:49 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:35:49 +0200 Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:37:39 -0400 > Subject: H720 PSU? > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > With the recent discussions of the PDP-11/20, I've been thinking of > what all I'll need to gather to restore mine. It's been a long time > since I pulled things from the pile, but I'm pretty sure that before > it was pitched, the fans and PSUs were harvested. > > I've found pictures on the 'net of the fans - looking at the wiring, > they appear to me to be pretty standard 110VAC boxer fans. ISTR > hearing that the fans in the 11/40 or 11/45 are bizarre, but I'm > expecting that the fans in the 11/20 are ordinary. I could check in a week or so, but others on this list can probably beat me to it :-) Regarding weird fans, you got it almost correct Ethan. The 11/40 has standard 110 VAC fans (I'm sure of that), and again, in a week or so I can tell what's in the 11/45. It is the 11/44 that has the "odd" fans. IIRC, they are 35V, 70 Hz models! > Since the "easiest" solution is to get the original equipment > reattached, I'm curious how much an H720 might fetch these days. If > it's too much, I can always come up with some other way to provide > power to run core (or skip the core and use MOS). > > My question for those that have tried recently, is it feasible to go > searching for 1-3 H720 PSUs, or are they old enough that the chances > of running across them are slim enough to make building a functional > replacement a preferable go (preferable from the standpoint of ever > being able to finish). I bought the 11/20 from a chap here in Holland, and he told me that he stored an 11/20 spare PSU in the storage space of somebody else. I had to go myself after that PSU, but I have not yet done that. Not having checked, I carefully say that if you have an H720 and it goes defective, it will be easy to repair (besides the transformer, I guess). If I get that spare PSU (if it is not yet scrapped), and the PSU in my 11/20 turns out to be OK, I might sell the other PSU, but I am afraid that shipping cost to the USA would be huge ... - Henk. (wishing days were 36 hours long) From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 15 14:43:32 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:43:32 -0400 Subject: Anybody collect APF MP1000 games? Message-ID: <75DCCDC9365047BC971B3FCC439E322B@game> The other day I snagged some misc computer/console stuff and included in the lot were some AFP MC1000 cartridges (1978 vintage I think). Since I don't have that system or plan of getting one I figured somebody might want them (open to offers). The carts are: MG1007 Blackjack MG1004 Bowling.Micro match MG1009 Casino 1 :slots/roulette/keno MG1003 Hangman/TIC TAC TOE/Doodle MG1005 Brickdown/Shooting Gallery Since there were only 12 or so carts made for this system this is almost half of all games sold. They look clean but are untested. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 15 11:25:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:25:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 15, 9 02:37:39 pm Message-ID: > I've found pictures on the 'net of the fans - looking at the wiring, > they appear to me to be pretty standard 110VAC boxer fans. ISTR > hearing that the fans in the 11/40 or 11/45 are bizarre, but I'm The fans in an 11/45 are plain 110V ones (even in the UK, they're run off the primary of the mains transformer acting as an autotransformer). I suspect the 11/40 is the same. It's the 11/44 (a much later machine) that has odd fans -- 35V 70Hz or something. They run off a transistorised full-H driver circuit in the PSU, so they can be run off the backup battery. > expecting that the fans in the 11/20 are ordinary. This leaves the > PSUs. If I were going to go with MOS memory, I wouldn't worry about > what to use - the Unibus itself only needs to provide +5V, and +/-15V. > Because the 11/20 routinely held core, it's expecting +8V (unreg) > plus -22V on top of the usual voltages. You may find that +8V is used eleewhere. I remember a +8V supply for the lamps on the KM11, and it may be used by the front panel lamps. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 15 15:21:59 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:21:59 +0100 Subject: Clustering on VMS 4.7 Message-ID: <000e01c9be07$d60dffe0$8229ffa0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have set up a VMS 4.7 machine on SIMH (using the 3900 emulation) but I can't see how to set up clustering. The only cluster-related procedures I have in SYS$MANAGER are MAKEROOT.COM, BOOT_CONFIG.COM and SATELLITE_CONFIG.COM. They all tell me "This system disk is not set up as a cluster system disk." I cannot see how to get started to make the system a cluster system disk, can anyone tell me what the first step is? Thanks Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 15:28:11 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:28:11 -0400 Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've found pictures on the 'net of the fans - looking at the wiring, >> they appear to me to be pretty standard 110VAC boxer fans. ?ISTR >> hearing that the fans in the 11/40 or 11/45 are bizarre, but I'm > > The fans in an 11/45 are plain 110V ones (even in the UK, they're run off > the primary of the mains transformer acting as an autotransformer). I > suspect the 11/40 is the same. OK. > It's the 11/44 (a much later machine) that has odd fans -- 35V 70Hz or > something. They run off a transistorised full-H driver circuit in the > PSU, so they can be run off the backup battery. That's the one. I guess I should have paid more attention - I have an 11/44, but I've never fiddled with the fans. I think I'll put "check and clean 11/44 fans" on the list of summer classiccmp tasks. >> ... If I were going to go with MOS memory, I wouldn't worry about >> what to use - the Unibus itself only needs to provide +5V, and +/-15V. >> ?Because the 11/20 routinely held core, it's expecting +8V (unreg) >> plus -22V on top of the usual voltages. > > You may find that +8V is used eleewhere. I remember a +8V supply for the > lamps on the KM11, and it may be used by the front panel lamps. Good point. I don't know the 11/20 inside and out, but I do know my way around the PDP-8/e, and the lamps on the front panel don't run off the +5V on the Omnibus (there's a PSU lead right to spade connectors on the front panel). OK. So... that makes finding at least one H720 more important. Thanks for the info. -ethan From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Apr 15 16:46:26 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:46:26 -0400 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <49E3F165.8030701@mail.msu.edu> <49E51492.2090303@nktelco.net> <200904142059.50984.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49E655B2.70707@nktelco.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Here is a description of my home brew KM-11 and a link to Tony's notes. >> >> http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/KM11 >> > > Did you make those boards? > > Hand wired using pad per hole perf board. The edge connector was scrounged from some STD bus prototype cards. What I would really like to have is a run of DEC edge connectors that I could attach to perf board. -chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 15 18:59:17 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HYTELNET (on topic) Message-ID: <200904152359.n3FNxHro018848@floodgap.com> For those of you who remember the HYTELNET system, I got this link from Peter Scott ("Mr. HYTELNET") today: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5542061680042791953 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Gravity is a myth. The Earth just sucks. ----------------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 21:09:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:09:04 -0400 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Jeff Little (jeflittl) wrote: > To All: > Just in case anyone was interested, here are the schematics that I found > for the Intercept Jr. and two of its accessory boards that were done > about 1975 or 1976. Wow! Very nice. Thank you for taking the time to send those out. -ethan From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Apr 16 01:13:23 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:13:23 -0700 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard References: Message-ID: <001301c9be5a$729e7090$0201a8c0@hal9000> Tony, If you could get past the dogma of using original parts just this once, a BASIC Stamp or PICAXE could easily do this with the EEPROM built into the device. The whole thing would probably fit into one 20 pin skinny DIP. Just a thought. Best regards, Steven > > Many reasons. There isn't that much space inside the HP150 keyboard, I > guess it could fit if I used SMD parts (but there may not be enough > headroom for a socketed PLCC EPROM). > > It's a lot harder to prototype with SMD parts in my experience. I can > wire up through-hole devices on stripboard in a couple of hours, testing > as I go. If I used SMD, I'd have to lay out a PCB (takes a lot longer > than running wires!), either etch it or more likely send the design off > somewhere and get the board back a week later, and then I'd have to debug > it, and repeat the PCB production when I'd found I'd made a mistake > (rememebr that in this case I didn't have a documented interface I was > connecting to, I had to make assumptions as to how the HP150/HP120 > keyboard microcontroller behaved). And as I mentioned I did make a few > modificuations while tracking down a problem which turned out to be a > dodgy keyswitch on the HP150 keyboard. Doing that with SMD parts would > have been a lot harder > > And if you think I can afford to prototype with through-hole and then > make an SMD version, think again! At least not for a one-off like this. > > And of course, when doing mods like this I like to use components that > were around at the time the machine was made, in packages that were > currently used. SMD was not common at the time of the HP120/HP150. > > > > -tony From jeflittl at cisco.com Wed Apr 15 20:03:32 2009 From: jeflittl at cisco.com (Jeff Little (jeflittl)) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:03:32 -0700 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> Message-ID: To All: Just in case anyone was interested, here are the schematics that I found for the Intercept Jr. and two of its accessory boards that were done about 1975 or 1976. Your's truly drew all three of these on the drawing board with pencil and straightedge. They were then turned into publishable versions by a graphic artist. The two boards plus a third one which had a number "devices" on it for lab demos made up the initial Intercept Jr. product set. This was used to support the original education classes that were based around this design. Still looking for listings of the micro-interpreter. This was the software that made use of the special keyboard and was embedded in the mask-programmed IM6312 ROM. You can see that the serial interface on the PIEART was arranged to support either an RS-232C interface or the old-fashioned 20ma current loop for communication with an ASR-33 Teletype. On the RAM module, the board held a set of two AA batteries to provide battery back-up on the RAM memory. It may be hard to believe but I do seem to remember that Intersil actually patented the little circuit in the upper right hand corner that prevented these batteries from being back-biased when the regular power was on and kicked them in gracefully when that power was lost. Regards, Jeff Little From adamg at pobox.com Wed Apr 15 22:16:42 2009 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:16:42 -0400 Subject: Northstar disk wanted Message-ID: <20090416031642.GA61989@silme.pair.com> Hi all, I'm looking for a 10-sector 5.25" floppy in the Northstar format. Either a boot disk or a data disk would be fine. If anyone has one they'd be willing to part with, please contact me off-list. Thanks! -- Adam From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 16 01:29:46 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:29:46 -0600 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> Message-ID: <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Little (jeflittl) wrote: > To All: > Just in case anyone was interested, here are the schematics that I found > for the Intercept Jr. and two of its accessory boards that were done > about 1975 or 1976. Your's truly drew all three of these on the drawing > board with pencil and straightedge. They were then turned into > publishable versions by a graphic artist. The two boards plus a third > one which had a number "devices" on it for lab demos made up the initial > Intercept Jr. product set. This was used to support the original > education classes that were based around this design. > > Still looking for listings of the micro-interpreter. This was the > software that made use of the special keyboard and was embedded in the > mask-programmed IM6312 ROM. > > You can see that the serial interface on the PIEART was arranged to > support either an RS-232C interface or the old-fashioned 20ma current > loop for communication with an ASR-33 Teletype. > > On the RAM module, the board held a set of two AA batteries to provide > battery back-up on the RAM memory. It may be hard to believe but I do > seem to remember that Intersil actually patented the little circuit in > the upper right hand corner that prevented these batteries from being > back-biased when the regular power was on and kicked them in gracefully > when that power was lost. > > Regards, > Jeff Little Is it just my system, or did every one NOT get the schematics with the email? Ben. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 16 02:13:50 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:13:50 -0500 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E6DAAE.7090202@pacbell.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Jeff Little (jeflittl) wrote: >> To All: >> Just in case anyone was interested, here are the schematics that I found >> for the Intercept Jr. and two of its accessory boards that were done ... > > Is it just my system, or did every one NOT get the schematics with the > email? > Ben. Attachments aren't allowed on the list. So, no, it wasn't just you. Also, don't send the same message to both cctalk and cctech. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Apr 16 10:22:17 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:22:17 -0400 Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904161122.18529.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 12:25:53 pm Tony Duell wrote: > > I've found pictures on the 'net of the fans - looking at the wiring, > > they appear to me to be pretty standard 110VAC boxer fans. ISTR > > hearing that the fans in the 11/40 or 11/45 are bizarre, but I'm > > The fans in an 11/45 are plain 110V ones (even in the UK, they're run off > the primary of the mains transformer acting as an autotransformer). I > suspect the 11/40 is the same. > > It's the 11/44 (a much later machine) that has odd fans -- 35V 70Hz or > something. They run off a transistorised full-H driver circuit in the > PSU, so they can be run off the backup battery. I have some power supplies -- out of an IBM storage setup or similar -- that use fans that operate on an odd voltage like that. I get the impression that they chose that voltage as being the maximim input for some 3-terminal regulator part on the other end. > > expecting that the fans in the 11/20 are ordinary. This leaves the > > PSUs. If I were going to go with MOS memory, I wouldn't worry about > > what to use - the Unibus itself only needs to provide +5V, and +/-15V. > > Because the 11/20 routinely held core, it's expecting +8V (unreg) > > plus -22V on top of the usual voltages. > > You may find that +8V is used eleewhere. I remember a +8V supply for the > lamps on the KM11, and it may be used by the front panel lamps. > > -tony -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 16 10:36:45 2009 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (dogas at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:36:45 +0000 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com><002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> Message-ID: <041620091536.17085.49E7508D00091936000042BD22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9C0E09010B@att.net> Hi Jeff, -------------- Original message from "Jeff Little (jeflittl)" : -------------- > Still looking for listings of the micro-interpreter. This was the > software that made use of the special keyboard and was embedded in the > mask-programmed IM6312 ROM. My jr is missing that 6312 too. I did get the user manual with mine though and the monitor listing (and schematics) are in there. I scanned the 6 pages of microinterpreter listing and loaded them here ( http://stsimonschess.com/iijrom.htm ) Please (somebody) download and make them available if reneeded, I don't really have much bandwidth there. Cheers - Mike From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 16 10:49:20 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:49:20 -0500 Subject: Collection to go in San Antonio, TX - repost, now free/pick-up Message-ID: All, My friend John Gold has still got a respectable collection in San Antonio that needs to not be his. Surely somebody with a storage shed and a van wants to come by and collect this? He'd like it to all go at once, and not to the dumpster, but I think you can work with him on partial deals. I think at this point the price is "come get it". John can be contacted at: jhgold at stic.net Sorry to pester y'all again with this, but some of the gear in here really looks to me to be worth preserving, and John hasn't got the space to do it. ---------------- Computers IBM 5324 large old work station/main frame HP Pavilion 7370V IBM Power Server 320 Type 7012 Macintosh Power PC G3 M4405 233MHz w/ keyboard & mouse Apple 3 CompuAdd 212 Model A002 Leading Edge DC-3010 PC Clone Tall Tower Eltech desktop clone PC Clone mini tower CompuAdd 325 Desktop Dell Dimension XPS M200S Dell Optiplex GXi Sanyo MBC 550 NEC Power Mate V466 Toshiba T1000 Laptop (2) w/ parts Toshiba T1000SE Laptop (2) NEC Multi Speed Laptop Laser 128 Laptop/Portable Computer IBM PC single 360K w/ HDD 5150 w/ keyboard IBM AT clone NEC Ready 466ES NEC Power Mate 286 AT&T Complete system w/ monitor & keyboard AT&T Box (2) Model 6300 CPU1Z & CPU2 w/ 1 keyboard Compaq Presario 4550 mini tower Atari 400 w/ Cassette drive 410 IBM PS-2 Model 30 8530-001 IBM PS-2 Model 30 286 8530-U21 Packard Bell Legend 300SX 386SX-16 Compaq Prolinea MT4/66 tower GTE Government systems desktop Gateway P4D-66 Monitors IBM terminal 3151 RS-232 & printer ports (2) Atari SC1224 IBM 8513-001 SVGA Zenith Data Systems ZCM 1450DT IBM 5153 CGA Apple 3 monochrome XTRON RTB Technologies CM147E CompuAdd MCH 4095N (1989) WYSE WY50 terminal w/ keyboard Dell VM1 mono (1990) Samsung MA2565 (1989) Packard Bell PB1272A (1988) Standard MCH4095N (1988) IBM 5081-16 Composite Video (1990) Sysdyne CGA (IBM clone) AES SVGA (1996) Samtron SVGA (1989) IBM Terminal 3164-11 (1992) NEC Multisync XV14 IBM 6405301 Serial monitor in box IBM 3164 serial terminal w/ base CompuAdd SVGA 51086 (1990) Magnavox Computer Monitor 80 video only Visual 120 Serial terminal w/ keyboard NEC MultiSync JC-1401 P3A 13" (1986) NEC MultiSync 3D NEC MultiSync 3V Printers HP Desk Jet 500 Star NX-10 Dot Matrix Panasonic Quiet KX-P2180 Epson LQ570 Dot Matrix Star NX-1000 Multi font w/ box Texas Instruments Microlaser Pro E Epson LQ-1000 Wide Carriage Dot Matrix Qume Daisy Wheel w/ extra wheels and print cartridge Kodak Personal Portable Diconix 180si Miscellaneous IBM Keyboards (5) Canon Personal Copier PC-3 w/toner cartridges Seiko Digitizer Tablets (3) IBM SCSI drives 7204-001, 7207-001, 7210-001 EXABYTE SCSI tape drive CI Designs SCSI peripheral box / in box IBM PC case 5150 IBM XT case 5160 Musek scanner (no photo) Memorex scanner (no photo) IBM Keyboard??, 5015715, in box, never opened BK Precision 2040 CB Signal Generator Arnet serial expansion board, with software and cables HP 1611A Logic State Analyzer for Z80? Gould K105D Logic Analyzer for Z80? Various keyboards, internal cards, Creative Labs CD drives and Sound Blasters TRS-80 Printer Cassette interface for PC-2 (2) TI-74 Basic Calc hand held computer NEC Versa docking station, in box , never used. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 11:02:37 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:02:37 -0500 Subject: Collection to go in San Antonio, TX - repost, now free/pick-up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904160902x4b06e8a8u788e456352c05066@mail.gmail.com> Argh! Why cant' this be in chicago. I really, really, REALLY want that Nec Multisync 3D. An ibm 5160 with a matching cga monitor would be nice also... brian On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > ? ? ? ?My friend John Gold has still got a respectable collection in San > Antonio that needs to not be his. Surely somebody with a storage shed and a > van wants to come by and collect this? He'd like it to all go at once, and > not to the dumpster, but I think you can work with him on partial deals. > ? ? ? ?I think at this point the price is "come get it". > ? ? ? ?John can be contacted at: > > jhgold at stic.net > > ? ? ? ?Sorry to pester y'all again with this, but some of the gear in here > really looks to me to be worth preserving, and John hasn't got the space to > do it. > > ---------------- > > Computers > ? ? ? ?IBM 5324 large old work station/main frame > ? ? ? ?HP Pavilion 7370V > ? ? ? ?IBM Power Server 320 Type 7012 > ? ? ? ?Macintosh Power PC G3 M4405 233MHz w/ keyboard & mouse > ? ? ? ?Apple 3 > ? ? ? ?CompuAdd 212 ? ? ?Model A002 > ? ? ? ?Leading Edge DC-3010 > ? ? ? ?PC Clone Tall Tower > ? ? ? ?Eltech desktop clone > ? ? ? ?PC Clone mini tower > ? ? ? ?CompuAdd 325 Desktop > ? ? ? ?Dell Dimension XPS M200S > ? ? ? ?Dell Optiplex GXi > ? ? ? ?Sanyo MBC 550 > ? ? ? ?NEC Power Mate V466 > ? ? ? ?Toshiba T1000 Laptop (2) w/ parts > ? ? ? ?Toshiba T1000SE Laptop (2) > ? ? ? ?NEC Multi Speed Laptop > ? ? ? ?Laser 128 Laptop/Portable Computer > ? ? ? ?IBM PC single 360K w/ HDD 5150 w/ keyboard > ? ? ? ?IBM AT clone > ? ? ? ?NEC Ready 466ES > ? ? ? ?NEC Power Mate 286 > ? ? ? ?AT&T Complete system w/ monitor & keyboard > ? ? ? ?AT&T Box (2) Model 6300 CPU1Z & CPU2 w/ 1 keyboard > ? ? ? ?Compaq Presario 4550 mini tower > ? ? ? ?Atari 400 w/ Cassette drive 410 > ? ? ? ?IBM PS-2 Model 30 8530-001 > ? ? ? ?IBM PS-2 Model 30 286 8530-U21 > ? ? ? ?Packard Bell Legend 300SX 386SX-16 > ? ? ? ?Compaq Prolinea MT4/66 tower > ? ? ? ?GTE Government systems desktop > ? ? ? ?Gateway P4D-66 > > Monitors > ? ? ? ?IBM terminal 3151 RS-232 & printer ports ?(2) > ? ? ? ?Atari SC1224 > ? ? ? ?IBM 8513-001 SVGA > ? ? ? ?Zenith Data Systems ZCM 1450DT > ? ? ? ?IBM 5153 CGA > ? ? ? ?Apple 3 monochrome > ? ? ? ?XTRON RTB Technologies CM147E > ? ? ? ?CompuAdd MCH 4095N (1989) > ? ? ? ?WYSE WY50 terminal w/ keyboard > ? ? ? ?Dell VM1 mono (1990) > ? ? ? ?Samsung MA2565 (1989) > ? ? ? ?Packard Bell PB1272A (1988) > ? ? ? ?Standard MCH4095N (1988) > ? ? ? ?IBM 5081-16 Composite Video (1990) > ? ? ? ?Sysdyne CGA (IBM clone) > ? ? ? ?AES SVGA (1996) > ? ? ? ?Samtron SVGA (1989) > ? ? ? ?IBM Terminal 3164-11 (1992) > ? ? ? ?NEC Multisync XV14 > ? ? ? ?IBM 6405301 Serial monitor in box > ? ? ? ?IBM 3164 serial terminal w/ base > ? ? ? ?CompuAdd SVGA 51086 (1990) > ? ? ? ?Magnavox Computer Monitor 80 video only > ? ? ? ?Visual 120 Serial terminal w/ keyboard > ? ? ? ?NEC MultiSync JC-1401 P3A 13" (1986) > ? ? ? ?NEC MultiSync 3D > ? ? ? ?NEC MultiSync 3V > > Printers > ? ? ? ?HP Desk Jet 500 > ? ? ? ?Star NX-10 Dot Matrix > ? ? ? ?Panasonic Quiet KX-P2180 > ? ? ? ?Epson LQ570 Dot Matrix > ? ? ? ?Star NX-1000 Multi font w/ box > ? ? ? ?Texas Instruments Microlaser Pro E > ? ? ? ?Epson LQ-1000 Wide Carriage Dot Matrix > ? ? ? ?Qume Daisy Wheel w/ extra wheels and print cartridge > ? ? ? ?Kodak Personal Portable Diconix 180si > > Miscellaneous > ? ? ? ?IBM Keyboards (5) > ? ? ? ?Canon Personal Copier PC-3 w/toner cartridges > ? ? ? ?Seiko Digitizer Tablets (3) > ? ? ? ?IBM SCSI drives 7204-001, 7207-001, 7210-001 > ? ? ? ?EXABYTE SCSI tape drive > ? ? ? ?CI Designs SCSI peripheral box / in box > ? ? ? ?IBM PC case 5150 > ? ? ? ?IBM XT case 5160 > ? ? ? ?Musek scanner (no photo) > ? ? ? ?Memorex scanner (no photo) > ? ? ? ?IBM Keyboard??, 5015715, in box, never opened > ? ? ? ?BK Precision 2040 CB Signal Generator > ? ? ? ?Arnet serial expansion board, with software and cables > ? ? ? ?HP 1611A Logic State Analyzer for Z80? > ? ? ? ?Gould K105D Logic Analyzer for Z80? > ? ? ? ?Various keyboards, internal cards, Creative Labs CD drives > ? ? ? ?and Sound Blasters > ? ? ? ?TRS-80 Printer Cassette interface for PC-2 ?(2) > ? ? ? ?TI-74 Basic Calc hand held computer > ? ? ? ?NEC Versa docking station, in box , never used. > > > -- > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Mark ? ? 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 11:08:11 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:08:11 -0500 Subject: Collection to go in San Antonio, TX - repost, now free/pick-up In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904160902x4b06e8a8u788e456352c05066@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904160902x4b06e8a8u788e456352c05066@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904160908w7ce58832x36b420c34cb953a8@mail.gmail.com> Maybe someone can house the collection for John temporarily and distrubute pieces to loving homes? I'd volunteer for this since I have a lot of unused basement at the moment. I even have a trailer and 1 ton van to pick it up. It's just too far away. brian On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: > Argh! ?Why cant' this be in chicago. ?I really, really, REALLY want > that Nec Multisync 3D. ? An ibm 5160 with a matching cga monitor would > be nice also... > > brian > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: >> All, >> ? ? ? ?My friend John Gold has still got a respectable collection in San >> Antonio that needs to not be his. Surely somebody with a storage shed and a >> van wants to come by and collect this? He'd like it to all go at once, and >> not to the dumpster, but I think you can work with him on partial deals. >> ? ? ? ?I think at this point the price is "come get it". >> ? ? ? ?John can be contacted at: >> >> jhgold at stic.net >> >> ? ? ? ?Sorry to pester y'all again with this, but some of the gear in here >> really looks to me to be worth preserving, and John hasn't got the space to >> do it. >> >> ---------------- >> >> Computers >> ? ? ? ?IBM 5324 large old work station/main frame >> ? ? ? ?HP Pavilion 7370V >> ? ? ? ?IBM Power Server 320 Type 7012 >> ? ? ? ?Macintosh Power PC G3 M4405 233MHz w/ keyboard & mouse >> ? ? ? ?Apple 3 >> ? ? ? ?CompuAdd 212 ? ? ?Model A002 >> ? ? ? ?Leading Edge DC-3010 >> ? ? ? ?PC Clone Tall Tower >> ? ? ? ?Eltech desktop clone >> ? ? ? ?PC Clone mini tower >> ? ? ? ?CompuAdd 325 Desktop >> ? ? ? ?Dell Dimension XPS M200S >> ? ? ? ?Dell Optiplex GXi >> ? ? ? ?Sanyo MBC 550 >> ? ? ? ?NEC Power Mate V466 >> ? ? ? ?Toshiba T1000 Laptop (2) w/ parts >> ? ? ? ?Toshiba T1000SE Laptop (2) >> ? ? ? ?NEC Multi Speed Laptop >> ? ? ? ?Laser 128 Laptop/Portable Computer >> ? ? ? ?IBM PC single 360K w/ HDD 5150 w/ keyboard >> ? ? ? ?IBM AT clone >> ? ? ? ?NEC Ready 466ES >> ? ? ? ?NEC Power Mate 286 >> ? ? ? ?AT&T Complete system w/ monitor & keyboard >> ? ? ? ?AT&T Box (2) Model 6300 CPU1Z & CPU2 w/ 1 keyboard >> ? ? ? ?Compaq Presario 4550 mini tower >> ? ? ? ?Atari 400 w/ Cassette drive 410 >> ? ? ? ?IBM PS-2 Model 30 8530-001 >> ? ? ? ?IBM PS-2 Model 30 286 8530-U21 >> ? ? ? ?Packard Bell Legend 300SX 386SX-16 >> ? ? ? ?Compaq Prolinea MT4/66 tower >> ? ? ? ?GTE Government systems desktop >> ? ? ? ?Gateway P4D-66 >> >> Monitors >> ? ? ? ?IBM terminal 3151 RS-232 & printer ports ?(2) >> ? ? ? ?Atari SC1224 >> ? ? ? ?IBM 8513-001 SVGA >> ? ? ? ?Zenith Data Systems ZCM 1450DT >> ? ? ? ?IBM 5153 CGA >> ? ? ? ?Apple 3 monochrome >> ? ? ? ?XTRON RTB Technologies CM147E >> ? ? ? ?CompuAdd MCH 4095N (1989) >> ? ? ? ?WYSE WY50 terminal w/ keyboard >> ? ? ? ?Dell VM1 mono (1990) >> ? ? ? ?Samsung MA2565 (1989) >> ? ? ? ?Packard Bell PB1272A (1988) >> ? ? ? ?Standard MCH4095N (1988) >> ? ? ? ?IBM 5081-16 Composite Video (1990) >> ? ? ? ?Sysdyne CGA (IBM clone) >> ? ? ? ?AES SVGA (1996) >> ? ? ? ?Samtron SVGA (1989) >> ? ? ? ?IBM Terminal 3164-11 (1992) >> ? ? ? ?NEC Multisync XV14 >> ? ? ? ?IBM 6405301 Serial monitor in box >> ? ? ? ?IBM 3164 serial terminal w/ base >> ? ? ? ?CompuAdd SVGA 51086 (1990) >> ? ? ? ?Magnavox Computer Monitor 80 video only >> ? ? ? ?Visual 120 Serial terminal w/ keyboard >> ? ? ? ?NEC MultiSync JC-1401 P3A 13" (1986) >> ? ? ? ?NEC MultiSync 3D >> ? ? ? ?NEC MultiSync 3V >> >> Printers >> ? ? ? ?HP Desk Jet 500 >> ? ? ? ?Star NX-10 Dot Matrix >> ? ? ? ?Panasonic Quiet KX-P2180 >> ? ? ? ?Epson LQ570 Dot Matrix >> ? ? ? ?Star NX-1000 Multi font w/ box >> ? ? ? ?Texas Instruments Microlaser Pro E >> ? ? ? ?Epson LQ-1000 Wide Carriage Dot Matrix >> ? ? ? ?Qume Daisy Wheel w/ extra wheels and print cartridge >> ? ? ? ?Kodak Personal Portable Diconix 180si >> >> Miscellaneous >> ? ? ? ?IBM Keyboards (5) >> ? ? ? ?Canon Personal Copier PC-3 w/toner cartridges >> ? ? ? ?Seiko Digitizer Tablets (3) >> ? ? ? ?IBM SCSI drives 7204-001, 7207-001, 7210-001 >> ? ? ? ?EXABYTE SCSI tape drive >> ? ? ? ?CI Designs SCSI peripheral box / in box >> ? ? ? ?IBM PC case 5150 >> ? ? ? ?IBM XT case 5160 >> ? ? ? ?Musek scanner (no photo) >> ? ? ? ?Memorex scanner (no photo) >> ? ? ? ?IBM Keyboard??, 5015715, in box, never opened >> ? ? ? ?BK Precision 2040 CB Signal Generator >> ? ? ? ?Arnet serial expansion board, with software and cables >> ? ? ? ?HP 1611A Logic State Analyzer for Z80? >> ? ? ? ?Gould K105D Logic Analyzer for Z80? >> ? ? ? ?Various keyboards, internal cards, Creative Labs CD drives >> ? ? ? ?and Sound Blasters >> ? ? ? ?TRS-80 Printer Cassette interface for PC-2 ?(2) >> ? ? ? ?TI-74 Basic Calc hand held computer >> ? ? ? ?NEC Versa docking station, in box , never used. >> >> >> -- >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Mark ? ? 210-379-4635 >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Large Asteroids headed toward planets >> inhabited by beings that don't have >> technology adequate to stop them: >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. >> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 16 11:23:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:23:11 -0700 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <001301c9be5a$729e7090$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: , <001301c9be5a$729e7090$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <49E6F8FF.12654.19FB53FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2009 at 23:13, Scanning wrote: > If you could get past the dogma of using original parts just this > once, a BASIC Stamp or PICAXE could easily do this with the EEPROM > built into the device. The whole thing would probably fit into one 20 > pin skinny DIP. Just a thought. Indeed. If one wanted to eschew DIPs and go with smaller SMT packages, the whole thing would probably fit inside of a connector shell. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 16 12:53:31 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:53:31 -0500 Subject: 1966 Lunar Orbiter image tapes rescued in LA Times: via Ampex FR-900 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/22/nation/na-lunar22 http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2008/11/image_collection_from_a_garage.html http://neverworld.net/lunar/ http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/02files/Lunar_Orbiter_Tapes_Found.html http://twitter.com/lunarOrbiter - John From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 13:48:24 2009 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:48:24 -0400 Subject: Toshiba T6600C available (low price) Message-ID: Hi people, There are some T6600C available here (OHIO, US). If you want some, I can pick up some for you. Your cost = shipping + 9.99(price) + tax(8.??%) + 4.99 (my gas and time). Let me know before Friday morning. Thank you! vax9000 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 13:14:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:14:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 15, 9 04:28:11 pm Message-ID: > > It's the 11/44 (a much later machine) that has odd fans -- 35V 70Hz or > > something. They run off a transistorised full-H driver circuit in the > > PSU, so they can be run off the backup battery. > > That's the one. I guess I should have paid more attention - I have an > 11/44, but I've never fiddled with the fans. I think I'll put "check > and clean 11/44 fans" on the list of summer classiccmp tasks. The fan assembly slides out of the side of the machine, I think there's a connector to unplug once you've got it out about 1" or so. The fans are conventionally made, you can remove circlips and washers from the centre of each one to extract the rotor/blades and thus clean/lubricate the bearings. Do not short either fan lead to the chassis when the machine is powered up. If you do, you blow at least one of the driver transistors. Please don't ask how I found that out. > > OK. So... that makes finding at least one H720 more important. I have at least 2 of them, but neither are spare (not to mention the fact that (a) they're the 230V version and (b) shipping would be expensive). One runs the RK11C on my 11/45 system. The other is part of a DX11 which I really must get round to investigating. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 13:15:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:15:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: <49E655B2.70707@nktelco.net> from "Charles H Dickman" at Apr 15, 9 05:46:26 pm Message-ID: > What I would really like to have is a run of DEC edge connectors that I > could attach to perf board. As would I (and for that matter, some 0.156" edge fingers to use in the same way). The DEC connecotors, are, of course, at 0.125" pitch. In theory you could cut down S100 prototyping boards, but I guess those are as hard to find now as DEC prototyping boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 13:44:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:44:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: <200904161122.18529.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Apr 16, 9 11:22:17 am Message-ID: > > It's the 11/44 (a much later machine) that has odd fans -- 35V 70Hz or > > something. They run off a transistorised full-H driver circuit in the > > PSU, so they can be run off the backup battery. > > I have some power supplies -- out of an IBM storage setup or similar -- that > use fans that operate on an odd voltage like that. I get the impression that > they chose that voltage as being the maximim input for some 3-terminal > regulator part on the other end. The 11/44 PSU is complicated, and not pleasant to work on. It's actually 3 SMPSUs running off one set of mains smoothing capacitors (a couple of coke-can sized things at one end of the chassis). One SMPSU is small and simple, and just powers the control circuitry for some of the other PSUs. The second one provides the +5V (at 125A or something) and +/-15V for the CPU and Unibus boards. This one is only enabled when the machine is turned out. The third one provides 36V. This is then regualted down (more switching regulators) to provide +/-5V and +/-12V for the RAM PCBs. It also powers the fan full-H driver. The resaon for this is that this 36V supply can be battery-backed (18 cells of lead-acid battery IIRC) to keep the memory contents if there's a power failure. And of course you want ot keep the fans running... Some people would prefer normal 12V fans for this, but actually the special fans inthe 11/44 rarely fail, and the drier circuitry is a lot easier to repair than that built into most DC fans. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 13:47:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:47:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <49E6F8FF.12654.19FB53FD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 9 09:23:11 am Message-ID: > > Indeed. If one wanted to eschew DIPs and go with smaller SMT > packages, the whole thing would probably fit inside of a connector > shell. I;'d love to see you fit anything into the connector of an HP120 or HP150 keybaord. The connnector, BTW, is a 6 pin RJ11.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 13:31:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:31:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <001301c9be5a$729e7090$0201a8c0@hal9000> from "Scanning" at Apr 15, 9 11:13:23 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, > > If you could get past the dogma of using original parts just this once, a > BASIC Stamp or PICAXE could easily do this with the EEPROM built into the > device. The whole thing would probably fit into one 20 pin skinny DIP. Just > a thought. I beg to differ... Firstly, as I metnioned several times in earlier messages in this thread, the HP120 and HP150 keyboards use 4000-series CMOS logic chips running at 12V. AFAIK the BASIC Stamp and PICAXE run at esentially TTL levels. So I'd need level shifters -- 2 stages on the inputs (clock and reset lines from the HP1x0) and 7 stages on the outputs (to drive the decoders and multiplexer in the keyboard). That accounted for 3 of the 5 chips in my modification board (a 4050 for the inputs and a couple of 74LS07s for the outputs). You could get away with resistors and clamp diodes for the former, I suppose, but ithat's not a big space saving. Secondly, neither of us know, I believe, tehe exact timing of the HP1x0 keyboard interface. It's all controlled by an 8041 in the machine. There's a clock line output from that which steps the scan counter in the keyboard on to the next key, some time after that the 8041 looks at one of its Test inputs to see if that key is pressed. But I don't know what 'some time' is. So I don't know how long I can spend working out what value to send to the decoder/multiplexer. Last time I looked at the BASIC Stamp, you wrote the program on a PC and compiled it to a pseudocode that was downloaded to the Stamp and interpretted there. I have no idea of the performance of that, the documetnation that was available didn't seem to go to a low enough level to work it out. And of course for me to use the Stamp, I'd have to get some machine to run that pseudocode compiler on. Which I don't have. So lets see... _apart from the level shifters_, my solution is 2 chips. One 14 pin (4024 counter), the other 28 bit (27C64 EPROM). I could have got that into a 24 pin package (2716), but the 27C64 is easier to find. That provides a solution where I cna work out the timing performance, and where I don't need any closed software to build it (I worked out the EPROM contents by hand using pen and paper in about half an hour, I would have had to work out much the same thing no matter what solution I adopted I am not against microcontrollers, but I really can't see they make any sense here at all. And there's another thing. I wanted to be able to go back to the Hp150 layout easily. Of course this just means a second table in the EPROM or microcontroller, with a _switch_ to select between them. And that switch has to be mounted soemwhere, which presumably means making holes in the keybosard casing. No, I am not going to consider using a reed switch and a loose magnet, the last thing I need near floppy disks is a loose magnet. Anyway, it's somewhat academic now. I have mounted it all up. The modifications to the HP case consist of cutting away part of the internal back ridge of the top case (to route the ribbon cable through), a similar cut/file to the clip-on cable cover and 4 holes in the top. The switch I mentioned is, of course, mounted on the box bolted ot the top of the keyboar containing my modification board. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 16 14:29:09 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:29:09 +0100 Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E78705.5050704@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Last time I looked at the BASIC Stamp, you wrote the program on a PC and > compiled it to a pseudocode that was downloaded to the Stamp and > interpretted there. I have no idea of the performance of that, the > documetnation that was available didn't seem to go to a low enough level > to work it out. I don't know why people are so fond of the BASIC Stamp. It seems to add an unnecessary layer of complication to what is really a pretty simple job. The PIC microcontroller is kind of designed to be easy to program in assembler to do simple control jobs. It's also about the only CPU I know of that's easier to program in assembler than C. > And of course for me to use the Stamp, I'd have to get some machine to > run that pseudocode compiler on. Which I don't have. One of the reasons I ditched PIC in favour of AVR is that the avr-gcc toolchain is far more robust than any of the PIC assemblers. The PIC, however, is a very very simple processor and you could knock up an assembler for it on any machine you liked in an afternoon. Anyway, I thought you had a 486 running Linux? Gordon From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 16 14:38:29 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:38:29 +0200 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <49E6F8FF.12654.19FB53FD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atApr 16, 9 09:23:11 am Message-ID: <56CD0886A6EB419E9142407838F1DA7B@xp1800> Me to !!! And Tony, I'm reading up your emails.. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 16 april 2009 20:47 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard > > > > > Indeed. If one wanted to eschew DIPs and go with smaller SMT > > packages, the whole thing would probably fit inside of a connector > > shell. > > I;'d love to see you fit anything into the connector of an > HP120 or HP150 keybaord. The connnector, BTW, is a 6 pin RJ11.... > > -tony > > From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Apr 16 15:35:32 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:35:32 -0400 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... References: <49E655B2.70707@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <18919.38548.553350.192431@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> What I would really like to have is a run of DEC edge connectors >> that I could attach to perf board. Tony> As would I (and for that matter, some 0.156" edge fingers to Tony> use in the same way). Tony> The DEC connecotors, are, of course, at 0.125" pitch. In theory Tony> you could cut down S100 prototyping boards, but I guess those Tony> are as hard to find now as DEC prototyping boards. Give how cheap low volume dual sided PCB fab is these days, it might make sense simply to lay out a board with the connector pattern on it and send it off to be fabricated, in the quantity you want. The basic fab would give you copper connectors, not gold plated, but that may well be good enough, certainly for prototyping purposes. If the board size is modest, you can create the layout with free tools. paul From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Apr 16 05:13:08 2009 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:13:08 +0200 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E704B4.6080806@iais.fraunhofer.de> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca schrieb: > Jeff Little (jeflittl) wrote: >> To All: >> Just in case anyone was interested, here are the schematics that I found >> for the Intercept Jr. and two of its accessory boards that were done > Is it just my system, or did every one NOT get the schematics with the email? > Ben. The mailinglist seems to drop attachments (at least those exceeding a certain size), it also appears to reject mails with valid S/MIME signatures. The mail was sent to Ethan and others in parallel to the list; so apparently Ethan got the attachment. -- Holger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 16:00:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:00:28 -0400 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E704B4.6080806@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> <49E704B4.6080806@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Holger Veit wrote: > The mailinglist seems to drop attachments (at least those exceeding a > certain size), it also appears to reject mails with valid S/MIME signatures. These were not small attachments - the schematic pages were each over 1MB. > The mail was sent to Ethan and others in parallel to the list; so apparently > Ethan got the attachment. Yep. That's what it looks like from here. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 16 16:24:47 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:24:47 -0700 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: bfranchuk Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:29 PM > > Is it just my system, or did every one NOT get the schematics with the > email? > Ben. I found some online here: http://sasteven.multics.org/IM6100/ based on an archived discussion. Vince From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 16:51:26 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:51:26 -0700 Subject: Toshiba T6600C available (low price) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904161451l127db958v9365632d0c08188a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:48 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > Hi people, > > There are some T6600C available here (OHIO, US). If you want some, I can > pick up some for you. Your cost = shipping + 9.99(price) + tax(8.??%) + 4.99 > (my gas and time). Let me know before Friday morning. Thank you! > Those are somewhat interesting systems if you have a need for a luggable 486-based system into which you can install full length 16-bit ISA cards. http://www.toshiba-europe.com/bv/computers/products/notebooks/t6600c/index.shtm From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 16 16:56:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:56:41 -0700 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <49E6F8FF.12654.19FB53FD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 9 09:23:11 am, Message-ID: <49E74729.20569.1B2C9DFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2009 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > I;'d love to see you fit anything into the connector of an HP120 or > HP150 keybaord. The connnector, BTW, is a 6 pin RJ11.... Okay, then how about fitting one inside of an RJ25 (isn't that a 6- pin RJ11?) "crossover" adapter? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 16 17:01:21 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:01:21 -0600 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I found some online here: > http://sasteven.multics.org/IM6100/ I don't need the schematics, but it is good to know that attachments can't be sent. > based on an archived discussion. Also was the Jr only limited to 4096 words of memory. That is what I seem to remember from the discription at the time. > Vince Ben. PS Did some other early computer have the ability to run the 6100 cpu as well as 8 bit cpu's? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:20:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:20:44 -0400 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:01 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Also was the Jr only limited to 4096 > words of memory. That is what I seem to remember > from the discription at the time. Yep.... 12-bit address bus and no EMA support - a straight IM6100. > PS Did some other early computer have the ability > to run the 6100 cpu as well as ?8 bit cpu's? Are you thinking of the CP/M board in a DECmate II? -ethan From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 16 17:28:09 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:28:09 -0700 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: bfranchuk: Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:01 PM > Also was the Jr only limited to 4096 > words of memory. That is what I seem to remember > from the discription at the time. I believe so. The Intercept (non-Jr) had a memory expansion (but not time-share) option that went up to 32K. Vince From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 16 17:35:52 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:35:52 -0700 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com><002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com><49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca><49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks: Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:20 PM > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:01 PM, bfranchuk wrote: > > PS Did some other early computer have the ability > > to run the 6100 cpu as well as 8 bit cpu's? > > Are you thinking of the CP/M board in a DECmate II? It might be what be what Ben was thinking of, but the DMII is actually based on the 6120 CPU, not the 6100. Vince From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 16 17:31:47 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:31:47 +0100 Subject: List behaviour (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) In-Reply-To: <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com> <49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca> <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E7B1D3.1030601@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/04/2009 23:01, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > I don't need the schematics, but it is good to know > that attachments can't be sent. I thought this was in the FAQ, but it's not. It has, though, been explained several times over the years. The mailing list does not allow attachments, by design, as it's intended for discussion, not filestore, and presumably most of the (thousands?) of subscribers wouldn't be interested in any one particular attachment (like schematics). It also doesn't allow HTML; it's meant to be lightweight. Maybe someone should volunteer to update the FAQ :-) It could do with a note about why you shouldn't post to cctech as well as cctalk, for example. For those who don't already know, it's not two lists, it's two views of the same list. Unless it's changed recently, messages posted by cctech subscribers are automatically also sent to cctalk; messages to cctalk are copied to cctech after a moderation process. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 16 18:33:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:33:34 -0700 Subject: List behaviour (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) In-Reply-To: <49E7B1D3.1030601@dunnington.plus.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca>, <49E7B1D3.1030601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49E75DDE.21713.1B857208@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2009 at 23:31, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I thought this was in the FAQ, but it's not. It has, though, been > explained several times over the years. The mailing list does not > allow attachments, by design, as it's intended for discussion, not > filestore, and presumably most of the (thousands?) of subscribers > wouldn't be interested in any one particular attachment (like > schematics). It also doesn't allow HTML; it's meant to be > lightweight. Now that we're on a new server, would it be an abuse of the list owner's (and admin's) good graces to request a ftp area for the subscribers' use? One could then distribute a file (such as that used for those Intercept Jr. schematics to the list. Just a thought, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 16 18:56:37 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:56:37 -0600 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com><002901c9b39e$b407bb20$1c173160$@com><49E6D05A.9000103@jetnet.ab.ca><49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E7C5B5.6020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks: > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:20 PM >> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:01 PM, bfranchuk wrote: >> > PS Did some other early computer have the ability >> > to run the 6100 cpu as well as 8 bit cpu's? >> >> Are you thinking of the CP/M board in a DECmate II? > > It might be what be what Ben was thinking of, but the DMII is actually > based on the 6120 CPU, not the 6100. No. I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. I think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards. Remember this was the time hardware tended to vanish overnight as well as your $$$. > Vince > Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 16 19:36:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:36:22 -0700 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E7C5B5.6020708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, , <49E7C5B5.6020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E76C96.2785.1BBECDDF@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2009 at 17:56, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > No. I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. I > think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards. Remember > this was the time hardware tended to vanish overnight as well as your > $$$. You're not perhaps thinking of the Digital Group systems? http://bytecollector.com/the_digital_group.htm Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 16 19:39:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:39:20 -0700 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E7C5B5.6020708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, , <49E7C5B5.6020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49E76D48.19294.1BC1851F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2009 at 17:56, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > No. I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. I > think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards. Remember > this was the time hardware tended to vanish overnight as well as your > $$$. The OSI Challenger III was another such system: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=47 Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Apr 16 19:41:59 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:41:59 -0300 Subject: KM11 and PDP-11/40 was Re: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... References: <49E655B2.70707@nktelco.net> <18919.38548.553350.192431@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <07a501c9bef5$7f4568d0$e30419bb@desktaba> > >> What I would really like to have is a run of DEC edge connectors > >> that I could attach to perf board. > Tony> As would I (and for that matter, some 0.156" edge fingers to > Tony> use in the same way). I do that here with toner transfer. Why can't you? :o) From mc at media.mit.edu Thu Apr 16 21:38:03 2009 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:38:03 -0400 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>> Thanks for providing the schematics, Jeff. Where would I find them? Do I have to log into a web site? (I'm not sure I could remember the password if the mailing list has such a file repository.) --Tim > Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:03:32 -0700 > From: "Jeff Little (jeflittl)" > Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics > To: , "Ethan Dicks" , "Steve > Stutman" , "Tony Eros" > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > To All: > Just in case anyone was interested, here are the schematics that I > found > for the Intercept Jr. and two of its accessory boards that were done > about 1975 or 1976. Your's truly drew all three of these on the > drawing > board with pencil and straightedge. They were then turned into > publishable versions by a graphic artist. The two boards plus a third > one which had a number "devices" on it for lab demos made up the > initial > Intercept Jr. product set. This was used to support the original > education classes that were based around this design. > > Still looking for listings of the micro-interpreter. This was the > software that made use of the special keyboard and was embedded in the > mask-programmed IM6312 ROM. > > You can see that the serial interface on the PIEART was arranged to > support either an RS-232C interface or the old-fashioned 20ma current > loop for communication with an ASR-33 Teletype. > > On the RAM module, the board held a set of two AA batteries to provide > battery back-up on the RAM memory. It may be hard to believe but I do > seem to remember that Intersil actually patented the little circuit in > the upper right hand corner that prevented these batteries from being > back-biased when the regular power was on and kicked them in > gracefully > when that power was lost. > > Regards, > Jeff Little From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 16 22:14:44 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:14:44 -0600 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics In-Reply-To: <49E76D48.19294.1BC1851F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, , <49E7C5B5.6020708@jetnet.ab.ca> <49E76D48.19294.1BC1851F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49E7F424.9030505@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Apr 2009 at 17:56, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> No. I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. I >> think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards. Remember >> this was the time hardware tended to vanish overnight as well as your >> $$$. > > The OSI Challenger III was another such system: > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=47 I think this was it. The 12 bit processor was card in development that used 12 bits of 16 bit memory. > Cheers, > Chuck > Ben. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 16 22:28:23 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:28:23 -0700 Subject: Help w/DEC H742 +15V... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E7F757.2020709@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >>> And waht behaviour is that? Can you do anything from the front panel, for >>> example? >>> >>> >>> >> Ah, sorry - got lost in earlier threads. I get a few seemingly random >> lights on the front panel -- always the same ones, though: >> >> The "Run," "Bus," "User," and "Console" status lights are always lit, as >> are bits 17, 10, 8, and 7 of the address, and bit 14 of the data. >> >> The console is completely unresponsive, nothing has any effect. >> > > What, if any, terminator do you have at the far end of the Unibus? If > it's an M9302, pull it out for the moment. > > It is an M9302. Running without it produces the same results, only the LEDs seem slightly dimmer (hmm...) >>> I trick I commonly use if I don't have the right extender card is to pull >>> the board I want to work on and solder lengths of wire to useful points >>> on that PCB. Then put the board back in place, make sure the wires aren't >>> shorting to anything and then power up. I can then connect my test gear >>> to the free ends of the wires. >>> >>> >> If I was as good at this as you, then that might work for me :). As it >> > > (1) I am not that good... > > (2) The only way to get experience (which is really what you need) is to > work on these old machines. > > Part of what I'm trying to achieve here is to get some experience, so I guess it's good that it's broken :). - Josh > >> is, I'm hoping that once I get some extender boards I can start >> debugging with my logic analyzer and learn how to work on this machine >> as I go along. >> > > There's no doubt that exteneder boards are very useful (why else would I > have a set :-)), but it is possible to manage without them. Don't let the > lack of an extender board act as an excuse for not getting this amchine > going! > > >>> It's slower than using an extender card, of course, but typically I only >>> need 2 or thre 'goes' (pull board, solder on half a dozen wires, put it >>> back, test) to find the fault. >>> >>> >> Can I fly you out here to fix mine? :) >> > > In principle yes :-). In practice, there is no way I would get on a plane > while the current daft 'security measures' are in effect. I would only > consider travelling if I could take my toolkit with me as hand luggage. > Period. > > -tony > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:52:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:52:55 -0400 Subject: Ohio Scientific (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Apr 2009 at 17:56, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> No. ?I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. I >> think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards.... > > The OSI Challenger III was another such system: > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=47 As I've mentioned in the past, we had a family friend when I was growing up that had a Challenger III. I got to go over a few times and play on it. At one point, I was helping him recode a BASIC program in 6502 assembler, but my skills at 13 weren't quite up to the task with his tools (I did OK at home poking out simple stuff). I've never seen another one, though I'm sure they sold more than one. In fact, OSI was two hours from my house, and I've only ever seen that one C3P and a couple of "Superboard"s in the wild. If I ever saw any OSI stuff at a hamfest, I would have bought it, but, alas, no. I'm not sure I "need" to own a C3P, but it would be great to play on one for a day or two. Anyone one the list have one they could hook up to a serial line that's net-accessible? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 16 23:52:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:52:03 -0700 Subject: Ohio Scientific (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E7A883.6852.1CA9046D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2009 at 23:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If I ever saw any OSI stuff at a hamfest, I would have bought it, but, > alas, no. I'm not sure I "need" to own a C3P, but it would be great > to play on one for a day or two. Didn't OSI produce a C5 with about 5 different CPUs? --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 16 19:16:10 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:16:10 -0400 Subject: Intercept Jr. Schematics Message-ID: <0KI700DG2Y1JIG00@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:56:37 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks: >> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:20 PM >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:01 PM, bfranchuk wrote: >>> > PS Did some other early computer have the ability >>> > to run the 6100 cpu as well as 8 bit cpu's? >>> >>> Are you thinking of the CP/M board in a DECmate II? >> >> It might be what be what Ben was thinking of, but the DMII is actually >> based on the 6120 CPU, not the 6100. > >No. I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. >I think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards. >Remember this was the time hardware tended to vanish overnight >as well as your $$$. The DECmateII was 6120 cpu (PDP-8A similar) and there was an Z80 based APU that ran CP/M and there was also for the DMIII both Z80 APU and also an 8088 based APU that ran CP/M-86 and DOS. Since I have a few DMIIIs I know for sure about the Z80 APU and I've used the DMII Z80 APU to run CP/M. General the DMIII is a smaller form factor DMII with a few minor adds and tweeks. The 6120 is a 6100 with Integrated 6102 MEDIC (timer, DMA, EMA) and some minor micro cycle tweaks and process improvements to make it a bit faster. If you have a 6100 and 6102 it's 99.4% the same as 6120. I have systems based on both. Generally wahn I want to play on raw iron the PDP-8 (or 61xx) archecture satisfies me for shear simplicity. The Digital Group system could have a 8080, Z80, 6502 and 6800 CPU but didn't do the 12bit 6120. The 12bit width of 6100/6120 was odd to many systems. Allison From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Apr 17 01:34:17 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:34:17 -0700 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? Message-ID: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's something standard, what the pinout is? This is a 20mb drive from an old Compaq LTE (8088) laptop. I'm trying to recover some data from it, and the laptop itself is dead. It appears to have a 44-pin connector in some form-factor I've not seen before. This is split out into two ribbon cables that plug into the laptop's motherboard. Can't find anything on the net. Found a site selling 'em as "0.02gb" drives, though :). (This site claims it's an IDE, I'm not so sure... though it would be nice.) Thanks, Josh From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 17 01:44:06 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:44:06 -0300 Subject: Toshiba T6600C available (low price) References: <1e1fc3e90904161451l127db958v9365632d0c08188a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b6a01c9bf27$fded0ad0$e30419bb@desktaba> > Those are somewhat interesting systems if you have a need for a > luggable 486-based system into which you can install full length > 16-bit ISA cards. So bad they are so far away :'( From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Apr 17 04:47:01 2009 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:47:01 +0100 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project Message-ID: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I have a 68000 MECB clone board and a large number (70+) seven segments that I would like to do a project with - I'm open to interesting an novel suggestions! My first thought was to create a 'snapshot' board with a set of eight displays giving the value of each register at a breakpoint in the 68000 code to aid in debugging. However, I'd quite like to do something with remote sensing such as a weather station or the like. I remember such displays being used for telescope controllers, alas, I have no telescope. Any suggestions gratefully received! Mark. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknoUBUACgkQR0vMj/mgdjZdOwCgmZf3sNjNRhDXSeHdkIScL8xT LCMAn1OBehmqrUurtEjGtANJdr2/aZaq =0muI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 17 04:52:27 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:52:27 -0400 Subject: Ohio Scientific (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) In-Reply-To: <49E7A883.6852.1CA9046D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 16 Apr 2009 at 23:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > If I ever saw any OSI stuff at a hamfest, I would have bought it, but, > > alas, no. I'm not sure I "need" to own a C3P, but it would be great > > to play on one for a day or two. > > Didn't OSI produce a C5 with about 5 different CPUs? > I have a C3 in a large rack mount. The C3 had a 6502, 6809 and 8080 in it. They advertised a board (that I have the schematics for, but have never owned) that would add a z80 and an intersil 6100 (pdp on a chip). I never heard of a machine so equipped called a 'C5' though. The ex-OSI dealers I have asked about it all say it never worked completely right and the resulting system was so different from any dec machine that coding for it ended up being almost a complete rewrite anyway. Bill From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 05:39:20 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:39:20 +0200 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project In-Reply-To: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:47, Mark Wickens wrote: > > I have a 68000 MECB clone board and a large number (70+) seven segments > that I would like to do a project with - I'm open to interesting an > novel suggestions! > Snake byte ! Arrange the displays in a grid, like 8x8 or something, and display a moving 'snake' which get longer each time it eats a dot ! The 'refresh' algorithm should be nice to program, since I guess you don't want to have more than one segment ON at a given time... -- Stephane Paris, France. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Apr 17 06:14:02 2009 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:14:02 +0100 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project In-Reply-To: References: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <49E8647A.5010105@wickensonline.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stephane Tsacas wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:47, Mark Wickens wrote: > >> I have a 68000 MECB clone board and a large number (70+) seven segments >> that I would like to do a project with - I'm open to interesting an >> novel suggestions! >> > > Snake byte ! > Arrange the displays in a grid, like 8x8 or something, and display a moving > 'snake' which get longer each time it eats a dot ! > > The 'refresh' algorithm should be nice to program, since I guess you don't > want to have more than one segment ON at a given time... You know I hadn't even considered games (except maybe a really retro space invaders!) Connect Four springs to mind as well, with a row of buttons at the top for the 'drop' functionality. I wonder if pacman is a possibility? Cheers! Mark. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknoZHoACgkQR0vMj/mgdjbQ3gCePDqiIgVgXpw5cBAslSjH6cWv g2gAn2qmTR0urdfRc5Z/YQ6wtjDJuNhY =XiOO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 09:29:16 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:29:16 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project Message-ID: <3D08191FF3104A1E93D03F1BF4B4B399@andrewdesktop> Hi!? I've been working on a home brew S-100 backplane as a side project for a while now.? I posted an initial draft version a few weeks ago and have made some improvements based on the comments. Here is some updated information on the schematic and PCB layout.? Comments, questions, suggestions are all welcome.? My plan is to make a small initial run of manufactured PCBs and would like to know if anyone would be interested. What I am looking for is a small group of experienced S-100 builders who'd like to purchase one of these boards (at cost, PCB only, plus shipping) to help with building it and checking it out. I am trying to keep the costs low but the PCB will be in the $30-$40 range depending on quantity.? Builders would need to supply parts, power supply, tools, etc.? The intent is to shake out the design with some early builds and get some feedback for improvements as needed. http://n8vem-sbc.pbwiki.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=ECB%20to%20S-100%2 0Bus%20Bridge I designed the S-100 backplane for a small 7" x 7" backplane of 6 slots with an integrated active terminator. ?The active terminator circuit is based on one I bought in a home brew S-100 system and it resembles other active terminators of the S-100 era. If you are interested please contact me. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From js at cimmeri.com Fri Apr 17 10:49:58 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:49:58 -0500 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49E8A526.2070302@cimmeri.com> I think that might be an IDE with power on the extra 4 pins. Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's > something standard, what the pinout is? > > This is a 20mb drive from an old Compaq LTE (8088) laptop. I'm trying > to recover some data from it, and the laptop itself is dead. It > appears to have a 44-pin connector in some form-factor I've not seen > before. This is split out into two ribbon cables that plug into the > laptop's motherboard. Can't find anything on the net. Found a site > selling 'em as "0.02gb" drives, though :). (This site claims it's an > IDE, I'm not so sure... though it would be nice.) > > > Thanks, > Josh > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Apr 17 11:52:45 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:52:45 -0700 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: <49E8A526.2070302@cimmeri.com> References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> <49E8A526.2070302@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's >> something standard, what the pinout is? I used to have one in an old 286 laptop, but that drive has since died. Isn't it the standard IDE pinout used on most 2.5" laptop drives? I suppose Conner might have made multiple circuit boards for different manufacturers with different pinouts. Is the connector 40 pins with higher density than IDE, a 1 pin gap and then 4 more power pins? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 12:33:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:33:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <49E78705.5050704@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Apr 16, 9 08:29:09 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Last time I looked at the BASIC Stamp, you wrote the program on a PC and > > compiled it to a pseudocode that was downloaded to the Stamp and > > interpretted there. I have no idea of the performance of that, the > > documetnation that was available didn't seem to go to a low enough level > > to work it out. > > I don't know why people are so fond of the BASIC Stamp. It seems to add Nor do I. Most of what I do with microcontrollers is essentaily complicated bit-twiddling, and it's easier to do that in assembly language where you then haev a good idea what the chip should be doing > One of the reasons I ditched PIC in favour of AVR is that the avr-gcc > toolchain is far more robust than any of the PIC assemblers. The PIC, > however, is a very very simple processor and you could knock up an > assembler for it on any machine you liked in an afternoon. Anyway, I > thought you had a 486 running Linux? I do. Which means I can run PIC, 8048 and 8051 cross-assemblers, and I assume there's an AVR one too (if not, I could write one). But I didn't think the STAMP toolkit came for linux, and I didn't think the STAMP ws sufficiently-well documented to write your own tools. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 12:39:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:39:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <49E74729.20569.1B2C9DFB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 9 02:56:41 pm Message-ID: > > I;'d love to see you fit anything into the connector of an HP120 or > > HP150 keybaord. The connnector, BTW, is a 6 pin RJ11.... > > Okay, then how about fitting one inside of an RJ25 (isn't that a 6- > pin RJ11?) "crossover" adapter? What good would that do? This is not an interface module that connects between the HP120 and an unmodified HP150 keyboard (if it was, I wouldn't have bolted it to the keyboard, cf the interface for the 262x keyboard I described last week). It's a modification to the HP150 keyboard tht electrically connected by a piece of 14 way ribbon cable and a DIL header in place of a 4024 chip on the keyboard PCB (Desolder the chip, solder in a socket. P,ug in a 4024 to return the keyboard to the original HP150 circuit, or this modification board to make it work with either the HP120 or HP150). Making an interfaec to connect between the HP120 and an unmodified HP150 keyboard would be a lot harder (and would almost certainly need a microcontroller). You'd have to scan the HP150 keyboard (generate clock and reset pulses, grab the state of the keydata line), then store the state of all the ekys and transmit them to the HP120 in accordance with the clock and reset pulses from that machine. I did consider doing this, but the modification to the keyboard turned out to be a lot easier. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 17 12:54:24 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:54:24 -0700 Subject: IBM Selectric google group Message-ID: <49E8C250.80508@bitsavers.org> Ran across this, and thought it might be of interest to people trying to do things with I/O Selectrics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golfballtypewritershop/messages From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Apr 17 13:01:15 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:01:15 -0400 Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard References: <49E78705.5050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <18920.50155.786871.590999@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Tony> I do. Which means I can run PIC, 8048 and 8051 Tony> cross-assemblers, and I assume there's an AVR one too (if not, Tony> I could write one). There is... since GCC supports AVR and GCC outputs assembler, so there has to be an assembler to back it up. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 17 13:06:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:06:45 -0700 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <49E74729.20569.1B2C9DFB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 9 02:56:41 pm, Message-ID: <49E862C5.15655.1F8093EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2009 at 18:39, Tony Duell wrote: > I did consider doing this, but the modification to the keyboard turned > out to be a lot easier. Sorry, I misunderstood the intent and scope of the proposed modification. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 17 13:25:31 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:25:31 -0700 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> <49E8A526.2070302@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric J Korpela > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:53 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > >> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if > it's > >> something standard, what the pinout is? > > I used to have one in an old 286 laptop, but that drive has since > died. Isn't it the standard IDE pinout used on most 2.5" laptop > drives? I suppose Conner might have made multiple circuit boards for > different manufacturers with different pinouts. Is the connector 40 > pins with higher density than IDE, a 1 pin gap and then 4 more power > pins? I think I still have the 286 version stashed somewhere - with a dead hard drive. I'll take a look. -- Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Apr 17 14:00:50 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:00:50 +0100 Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F135D5-A31D-42C8-9FA3-E84BFB8475C4@microspot.co.uk> On 17 Apr 2009, at 05:52, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:29:09 +0100 > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 > The PIC microcontroller is kind of designed to be easy to program > in assembler to do simple control jobs. It's also about the only > CPU I > know of that's easier to program in assembler than C. I find it easy to program my 'microcontroller' in machine code, though mine weighs 5 tons. But it really is as basic as a microcontroller, plus you program it in decimal unless you need to handle binary/hex/ octal data. It is not really possible to write a C compiler for it anyway. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Apr 17 14:03:20 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:03:20 -0700 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> <49E8A526.2070302@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49E8D278.6000406@mail.msu.edu> It's not the same sized connector as a 2.5" laptop IDE. I'd guess it's about 1/2 to 2/3 the width. It could have the same pinout, though... Josh Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > >>> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's >>> something standard, what the pinout is? >>> > > I used to have one in an old 286 laptop, but that drive has since > died. Isn't it the standard IDE pinout used on most 2.5" laptop > drives? I suppose Conner might have made multiple circuit boards for > different manufacturers with different pinouts. Is the connector 40 > pins with higher density than IDE, a 1 pin gap and then 4 more power > pins? > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 17 14:11:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:11:35 -0700 Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <18920.50155.786871.590999@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <49E78705.5050704@gjcp.net>, <18920.50155.786871.590999@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49E871F7.32398.1FBBF3A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2009 at 14:01, Paul Koning wrote: > There is... since GCC supports AVR and GCC outputs assembler, so > there has to be an assembler to back it up. The weakness of all the PIC and AVR assemblers that I've seen is the seeming need to conform to the manufacturer's toolset. This seems to result in implementations with screwy syntax and anemic macro facilities. As an example, consider the AVR "equate" syntax: .equ symbol = value Probably intended to make life easier for a junior programmer who's been assigned to write an assembler. I know that IEEE 694 was withdrawn in 1994, but why not use it as a style guide anyway? Or provide an assembler that's at least up to 1964 practice? --Chuck From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Apr 17 14:29:35 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:29:35 -0400 Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard References: <49E78705.5050704@gjcp.net> <18920.50155.786871.590999@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <49E871F7.32398.1FBBF3A0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18920.55455.90005.997183@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 17 Apr 2009 at 14:01, Paul Koning wrote: >> There is... since GCC supports AVR and GCC outputs assembler, so >> there has to be an assembler to back it up. Chuck> The weakness of all the PIC and AVR assemblers that I've seen Chuck> is the seeming need to conform to the manufacturer's toolset. Chuck> This seems to result in implementations with screwy syntax and Chuck> anemic macro facilities. Have you logged at GNU "as"? It has fairly reasonable macro machinery, and that's common, not target specific as far as I remember. For that matter, so are many other bits of syntax. I don't see anything in the docs that suggest that the AVR version of gnu as follows the oddball syntax you complained about. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 14:46:04 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:46:04 -0400 Subject: Jay or one of the other Moderators? Message-ID: <49E8DC7C.8060501@gmail.com> Could you send me private email please? I need to talk to one of you ASAP. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 17 16:16:54 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:16:54 +0200 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <49E74729.20569.1B2C9DFB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atApr 16, 9 02:56:41 pm Message-ID: <0E7CF2D40C2940D5AA4EC5B629049D8B@xp1800> How about KISS (keep it smart and simple). Smart for the idea and simple for the building, exactly what you did in my humble opinion. The use of the 4000 cmos series is in line with the engineering of the HP120. And like you said HP150 keyboards are 'easy' to find ;-) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 17 april 2009 19:39 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard > > > > I;'d love to see you fit anything into the connector of > an HP120 or > > > HP150 keybaord. The connnector, BTW, is a 6 pin RJ11.... > > > > Okay, then how about fitting one inside of an RJ25 (isn't that a 6- > > pin RJ11?) "crossover" adapter? > > What good would that do? This is not an interface module that > connects between the HP120 and an unmodified HP150 keyboard > (if it was, I wouldn't have bolted it to the keyboard, cf the > interface for the 262x keyboard I described last week). It's > a modification to the HP150 keyboard tht electrically > connected by a piece of 14 way ribbon cable and a DIL header > in place of a 4024 chip on the keyboard PCB (Desolder the > chip, solder in a socket. P,ug in a 4024 to return the > keyboard to the original HP150 circuit, or this modification > board to make it work with either the HP120 or HP150). > > Making an interfaec to connect between the HP120 and an > unmodified HP150 keyboard would be a lot harder (and would > almost certainly need a microcontroller). You'd have to scan > the HP150 keyboard (generate clock and reset pulses, grab the > state of the keydata line), then store the state of all the > ekys and transmit them to the HP120 in accordance with the > clock and reset pulses from that machine. > > I did consider doing this, but the modification to the > keyboard turned out to be a lot easier. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 17 16:37:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:37:01 -0700 Subject: Getting OT - Microcontrollers, was Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <18920.55455.90005.997183@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <49E78705.5050704@gjcp.net>, <18920.55455.90005.997183@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49E8940D.17868.20411913@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2009 at 15:29, Paul Koning wrote: > Have you logged at GNU "as"? It has fairly reasonable macro > machinery, and that's common, not target specific as far as I > remember. For that matter, so are many other bits of syntax. I don't > see anything in the docs that suggest that the AVR version of gnu as > follows the oddball syntax you complained about. I'll have a look, thanks. The only open-source assembler for AVR I've made any use of is avra. --Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Apr 17 17:14:04 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:14:04 +0100 Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1240006444.6412.18.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:44 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > The second one provides the +5V (at 125A or something) That's a MIG welder, Tony... Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:11:55 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:11:55 -0500 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E8FEAB.4040505@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> All I have to do is box it up. The new board will have to go in a plastic >>> box screwed to the top of the keyboard. But I want to get things just >>> right before I start drilling holes. >> Yick... if you have to screw it, can't it be on the back - or some form of >> trailing cable so that a future owner can put things back to original should >> they want to? > > At least somebody reads my postings :-) Yep - although I'm just skimming classiccmp these days; it's too depressing reading all these fun stories and not having any 'toys' to tinker with :-) (at least it's warm enough now to go outside and futz around with our ancient truck) > Anyway, I have 3 HP150 keybaords (one missing a keycap IIRC) and 2 > HP150s, so I have enough bits to have an oriignal keyboard per machine if > I want to. That keeps me happy :) I've done that before with old cars; I don't mind irreversibly modifying something if I have a spare unmodified part laying around that will be kept purely so the mod can be backed out of at a later date. cheers J. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Apr 17 17:56:23 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:56:23 -0300 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project References: <3D08191FF3104A1E93D03F1BF4B4B399@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <15c001c9bfaf$c6a5b3a0$e30419bb@desktaba> >I designed the S-100 backplane for a small 7" x 7" backplane of 6 slots >with >an integrated active terminator. The active terminator circuit is based on >one I bought in a home brew S-100 system and it resembles other active >terminators of the S-100 era. >If you are interested please contact me. Andrew, I'm VERY interested in building a small S-100 system, but which connector should I buy? I can do the boards myself here. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 17 19:33:39 2009 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:33:39 -0500 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: <49E8D278.6000406@mail.msu.edu> References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu>, , <49E8D278.6000406@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Date sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:03:20 -0700 From: Josh Dersch To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? Send reply to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > It's not the same sized connector as a 2.5" laptop IDE. I'd guess it's > about 1/2 to 2/3 the width. It could have the same pinout, though... > > Josh > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > > >>> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's > >>> something standard, what the pinout is? > >>> > > > > I used to have one in an old 286 laptop, but that drive has since > > died. Isn't it the standard IDE pinout used on most 2.5" laptop > > drives? I suppose Conner might have made multiple circuit boards for > > different manufacturers with different pinouts. Is the connector 40 > > pins with higher density than IDE, a 1 pin gap and then 4 more power > > pins? > > > > > > This is really a 44 pin IDE squeezed together. Put in a flash CF with adapter instead. I successfully did one with 2.5" HD in one long ago. Cheers, Wizard From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 17 19:30:10 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:30:10 -0700 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu>, , <49E8D278.6000406@mail.msu.edu>, Message-ID: The only problem with that is that the OP is trying to recover data of the disk. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jpero at sympatico.ca [jpero at sympatico.ca] Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? Date sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:03:20 -0700 From: Josh Dersch To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? Send reply to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > It's not the same sized connector as a 2.5" laptop IDE. I'd guess it's > about 1/2 to 2/3 the width. It could have the same pinout, though... > > Josh > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > > >>> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's > >>> something standard, what the pinout is? > >>> > > > > I used to have one in an old 286 laptop, but that drive has since > > died. Isn't it the standard IDE pinout used on most 2.5" laptop > > drives? I suppose Conner might have made multiple circuit boards for > > different manufacturers with different pinouts. Is the connector 40 > > pins with higher density than IDE, a 1 pin gap and then 4 more power > > pins? > > > > > > This is really a 44 pin IDE squeezed together. Put in a flash CF with adapter instead. I successfully did one with 2.5" HD in one long ago. Cheers, Wizard From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 17 19:52:16 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:52:16 -0700 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project References: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E8647A.5010105@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <49E92440.7DBED13A@cs.ubc.ca> Mark Wickens wrote: > > Stephane Tsacas wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:47, Mark Wickens wrote: > > > >> I have a 68000 MECB clone board and a large number (70+) seven segments > >> that I would like to do a project with - I'm open to interesting an > >> novel suggestions! > > > > Snake byte ! > > Arrange the displays in a grid, like 8x8 or something, and display a moving > > 'snake' which get longer each time it eats a dot ! > > > > The 'refresh' algorithm should be nice to program, since I guess you don't > > want to have more than one segment ON at a given time... > > You know I hadn't even considered games (except maybe a really retro > space invaders!) > > Connect Four springs to mind as well, with a row of buttons at the top > for the 'drop' functionality. > > I wonder if pacman is a possibility? Somebody on the list was talking about an interactive electronic Sudoku game a while ago. Another 30- seven-seg displays and you could do that. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 18 02:23:02 2009 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 02:23:02 -0500 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu>, , Message-ID: From: Ian King To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:30:10 -0700 Subject: RE: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? Send reply to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > The only problem with that is that the OP is trying to recover data of the disk. :-) That what I'm aware about, Take the old cable from the notebook and assemble homemade IDE adapter and supply 5V. Just mind the correct grounds pattern and such. Matches the notebook 44 pin IDE pin out exactly but just the pin spacing is different. Cheers, Wizard > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jpero at sympatico.ca [jpero at sympatico.ca] > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:33 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? > > Date sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:03:20 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? > Send reply to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > request at classiccmp.org?subject=unsubscribe> > request at classiccmp.org?subject=subscribe> > > > It's not the same sized connector as a 2.5" laptop IDE. I'd guess it's > > about 1/2 to 2/3 the width. It could have the same pinout, though... > > > > Josh > > > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's > > >>> something standard, what the pinout is? > > >>> > > > > > > I used to have one in an old 286 laptop, but that drive has since > > > died. Isn't it the standard IDE pinout used on most 2.5" laptop > > > drives? I suppose Conner might have made multiple circuit boards for > > > different manufacturers with different pinouts. Is the connector 40 > > > pins with higher density than IDE, a 1 pin gap and then 4 more power > > > pins? > > > > > > > > > > > This is really a 44 pin IDE squeezed together. > > Put in a flash CF with adapter instead. I successfully did one with 2.5" HD > in one long ago. > > Cheers, Wizard > > > > From MRHUDSON at att.net Fri Apr 17 10:46:15 2009 From: MRHUDSON at att.net (J HUDSON) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:46:15 +0000 Subject: NOVA 4 Message-ID: <041720091546.27403.49E8A44700015FE400006B0B22230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBFB2B1ACBBAAB8ADB3@att.net> I HAVE COMPLETE NOVA 4 FOR SALE ALL OR MAYBE PARTS MrHudson at att.net From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Apr 17 11:22:06 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:22:06 -0500 Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? References: <49E822E9.6010708@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <004301c9bf78$a7409ca0$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:34 AM Subject: Conner CP-4021 interface/pinout? > Anyone know what kind of interface a Conner CP-4021 uses, and if it's > something standard, what the pinout is? > > This is a 20mb drive from an old Compaq LTE (8088) laptop. I'm trying to > recover some data from it, and the laptop itself is dead. It appears to > have a 44-pin connector in some form-factor I've not seen before. This is > split out into two ribbon cables that plug into the laptop's motherboard. > Can't find anything on the net. Found a site selling 'em as "0.02gb" > drives, though :). (This site claims it's an IDE, I'm not so sure... > though it would be nice.) > > > Thanks, > Josh I'm afraid that I'm no help either. I assume you've probably already checked computerhope.com. I can't tell you how much good info I've found on that site. The link below is as close as I could get, but unfortunately no 4021. I don't see how it could be IDE as that's a 40 pin connector. It is perhaps slightly interesting that the 3021 is a 20 meg drive. Perhaps the 4021 was a custom mod of the 3021 for Compaq? I have read that some of their devices were intentionally incompatible with the rest of the PC world, though I've never personally confirmed that. http://www.computerhope.com/hdconner.htm#cp BTW, this is the first time I've tried replying to the group since I switched to non-digest mode so please excuse any goofs. Since I also subscribed to cctalk at the same time, I had to look at the message source to see which group the message was actually from. Some of the posts show in the To field as cctalk at classiccmp.org while others show as "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts". I'm wondering now if all the latter are from cctech. If I can trust that it will simplify life a bit in the future. Later, Charlie Carothers From rogue74656 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 22:38:03 2009 From: rogue74656 at yahoo.com (Rogue) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ID book / Find program Message-ID: <167844.85460.qm@web39607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a photocopy of some pages from a book of BASIC computer games from the 1980's. The copies I have are of the games "Freebish!" "Crops" and "There's Gold in Them Thar Skyscrapers" 1) can anyone ID this book they came from? 2) Does anyone know of an updated version (java, etc) out there? -Michael Dean From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Apr 18 02:24:39 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:24:39 -0700 Subject: Great find on eBay... Message-ID: <49E98037.40503@mail.msu.edu> Item 160329193774. Sure, it doesn't work. And it's missing most of the parts. But it's an Old computer, and the bidding starts at under $4000! Sounds like a great deal to me! Josh From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Apr 18 02:27:58 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:27:58 +0100 Subject: ID book / Find program In-Reply-To: <167844.85460.qm@web39607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <167844.85460.qm@web39607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1240039678.20801.0.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-04-17 at 20:38 -0700, Rogue wrote: > 2) Does anyone know of an updated version (java, etc) out there? Given the listings, it wouldn't be hard to rewrite them in a "modern" language. Gordon From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Apr 18 04:10:44 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:10:44 +0200 Subject: 1966 Lunar Orbiter image tapes rescued in LA Times: via Ampex FR-900 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <49E99914.4070008@update.uu.se> John Foust wrote: > http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/22/nation/na-lunar22 > > http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2008/11/image_collection_from_a_garage.html > > http://neverworld.net/lunar/ > > http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/02files/Lunar_Orbiter_Tapes_Found.html > > http://twitter.com/lunarOrbiter > > - John > > Are these the same tapes mentioned here? http://thinkingshift.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/the-curious-case-of-lost-nasa-tapes/ Pretty awesome though, that lady Evans is a real hero! /P From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Apr 18 05:10:50 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:10:50 +0200 Subject: Great find on eBay... References: <49E98037.40503@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <71C32E726A9944FEABE84C780E969A51@udvikling> > Item 160329193774. > > Sure, it doesn't work. And it's missing most of the parts. But it's an > Old computer, and the bidding starts at under $4000! Sounds like a great > deal to me! > How right you are ! And all those nice pictures ... Nico From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 18 05:22:08 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:22:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Great find on eBay... In-Reply-To: <49E98037.40503@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <312608.91075.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hmmm.... no photo's, no description or external links, a user with only a 1 rating (although account was opened in Feb 2006) and $4,000 starting bid on a 3-day listing? Someones desperate for money, I'm gonna watch this one just for fun! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 18/4/09, Josh Dersch wrote: From: Josh Dersch Subject: Great find on eBay... To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org >> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 18 April, 2009, 8:24 AM Item 160329193774. Sure, it doesn't work. And it's missing most of the parts. But it's an Old computer, and the bidding starts at under $4000! Sounds like a great deal to me! Josh From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Apr 18 07:09:39 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:09:39 -0400 Subject: Great find on eBay... In-Reply-To: <49E98037.40503@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Josh Dersch wrote: > > Item 160329193774. > > Sure, it doesn't work. And it's missing most of the parts. But it's an > Old computer, and the bidding starts at under $4000! Sounds like a great > deal to me! Two words: Money laundering. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 18 09:03:59 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:03:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HYTELNET (on topic) In-Reply-To: <200904152359.n3FNxHro018848@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <562857.85007.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> That was quite interesting. For anyone else that downloads it, don't panic - the sound kicks in after 1 second, but the video doesn't start until 10 seconds in! Its about 18 minutes long and 40MB in size. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 16/4/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: HYTELNET (on topic) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, 16 April, 2009, 12:59 AM For those of you who remember the HYTELNET system, I got this link from Peter Scott ("Mr. HYTELNET") today: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5542061680042791953 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Gravity is a myth. The Earth just sucks. ----------------------------------- From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Apr 18 10:18:10 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:18:10 +0100 Subject: Shimatronic knitting machine controller PC Message-ID: <1240067890.20801.24.camel@elric> Bit of an odd one this, rescued along with a Seiko graphics tablet (but no puck) and a 15" rather nice Sony monitor that needs 110V. It seems to have a 286 and a 68000 (or similar) on several boards inside a case about the size of a biggish PC tower, with a 3.5" half-height hard disk and floppy drive. Seems to be Japanese and for the Japanese market, judging by the labelling. No idea what it does, no idea what it is, never even fired it up, it was just a bit too good to skip. If anyone wants it, pick it up in Glasgow - mail me offlist for details. Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 10:53:53 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:53:53 -0500 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project In-Reply-To: <49E92440.7DBED13A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E8647A.5010105@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E92440.7DBED13A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49E9F791.8020507@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Somebody on the list was talking about an interactive electronic Sudoku game a > while ago. That was possibly me, although it was a while ago - I wanted to do one out of Nixies (or even a less-common still display technology)... too much money at the time though to buy all the necessary displays... cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Apr 18 13:02:49 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:02:49 -0400 Subject: Ohio Scientific (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904181402.49339.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 16 April 2009 11:52:55 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 16 Apr 2009 at 17:56, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> No. ?I think I read about it in kilabuad, rather than a early BYTE. I > >> think they supported a 8080, 6502 and 6100 as add on cards.... > > > > The OSI Challenger III was another such system: > > > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=47 > > As I've mentioned in the past, we had a family friend when I was > growing up that had a Challenger III. I got to go over a few times > and play on it. At one point, I was helping him recode a BASIC > program in 6502 assembler, but my skills at 13 weren't quite up to the > task with his tools (I did OK at home poking out simple stuff). > > I've never seen another one, though I'm sure they sold more than one. > In fact, OSI was two hours from my house, and I've only ever seen that > one C3P and a couple of "Superboard"s in the wild. > > If I ever saw any OSI stuff at a hamfest, I would have bought it, but, > alas, no. I'm not sure I "need" to own a C3P, but it would be great > to play on one for a day or two. Anyone one the list have one they > could hook up to a serial line that's net-accessible? > > -ethan I remember those ads well, and besides the fact that you had your choice of CPU with that company, they were also the first one I remember seeing that offered a hard disk in the hobby market. And not just the measly 10MB that other companies came out with later on, but 74MB! :-) A company I worked for back in 1978 was considering their system, but they were unresponsive to such inquiries as could they be put in touch with someone who'd bought one and similar, so they ended up buying an H11 (that I got to assemble) instead. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 18 13:24:20 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:24:20 -0700 Subject: 1966 Lunar Orbiter image tapes rescued in LA Times: via AmpexFR-900 References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> <49E99914.4070008@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49EA1AD5.11F5BBE2@cs.ubc.ca> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > John Foust wrote: > > http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/22/nation/na-lunar22 > > > > http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2008/11/image_collection_from_a_garage.html > > > > http://neverworld.net/lunar/ > > > > http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/02files/Lunar_Orbiter_Tapes_Found.html > > > > http://twitter.com/lunarOrbiter > > Are these the same tapes mentioned here? > > http://thinkingshift.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/the-curious-case-of-lost-nasa-tapes/ > > Pretty awesome though, that lady Evans is a real hero! Looked like a really fun project to work on. I like the picture of the sleeping bag laid out amidst the stacks of tapes in the "recovery laboratory" (abandoned McDonalds restaurant). There was some mention of the analog tape format but I wish there had been a little more technical write-up of the old equipment and the transfer process and issues they went through. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 18 14:22:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:22:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: <1240006444.6412.18.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Apr 17, 9 11:14:04 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 19:44 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The second one provides the +5V (at 125A or something) > > That's a MIG welder, Tony... I thought welders typically used tens of volts... But I haev no intention of short-circuiting my 11/44 PSU to see if I can weld a screwdriver to the terminals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 18 14:41:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:41:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <0E7CF2D40C2940D5AA4EC5B629049D8B@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 17, 9 11:16:54 pm Message-ID: > > How about KISS (keep it smart and simple). I've always expanded that as 'Keep it simple, stupid' :-). > Smart for the idea and simple for the building, exactly what you did in my > humble opinion. Thank you. I did conisder various mrthods of making a keyboard for the HP120, including using a microcontroller to interface a PC keyboard, but in the end went with (a) an HP keyboard and (b) the sort of design I am happiest with. After all, this is a hobby, so I can get to chose the design. > The use of the 4000 cmos series is in line with the engineering of the > HP120. Arguably using an 8048 microcontroller wouldn't have been out of line. After all the keyboard interface on the terminal PCB of an HP120 (and on the CPU board of an HP150) is handled by an 8041 (essentially an 8048 + host interface logic. I don't think HP ever used PICs in this sort of machine (for all they were certainly around at the time). I did use an EPROM that was far too large, I guess. I only needed 256 bytes. But using a 1702 or a 2708 was going to be a lot of work (I would have to generate a -ve supply). A 2716 would have been the the 'right' choice, I guess, but 27C64s are a lot easier to find. > And like you said HP150 keyboards are 'easy' to find ;-) And rememeber I haven't ruined the one I've modified. If you just want to use it with the HP150, you just flick a swtich and you get the HP150 key mapping back. If you weant to return it to the original condtion, just dismantle and remove the modification stuff, pulg a 4024 into the socket on the keyboard PCB, and find some way to plug the 4 holes in the top case (or replace the top case with one from a spare keyboard -- it was used on other HP keybaords too). Not too bad. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 18 15:01:45 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:01:45 -0300 Subject: H720 PSU? References: Message-ID: <1b3801c9c060$8a74beb0$e30419bb@desktaba> >> > The second one provides the +5V (at 125A or something) >> That's a MIG welder, Tony... > I thought welders typically used tens of volts... > But I haev no intention of short-circuiting my 11/44 PSU to see if I can > weld a screwdriver to the terminals. A Long, LONG time ago, I had a 11/750. Believe me, it can weld. Been there, done that :o) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 18 15:09:38 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:09:38 +0200 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <0E7CF2D40C2940D5AA4EC5B629049D8B@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr17, 9 11:16:54 pm Message-ID: <760FA552247E40EB868EF0E18EBD505D@xp1800> And now something completely different......(free after monty python) Did you ever use the HP 59401A HP-IB analyzer ? I aquired it through epay from a dutch firm, the display wasn't functioning right (no memory position). Witch turned out to be a bad 74L04 in the controller board, hanging up some control signals, now it works ok?. But now I've to find some 'use' for the analyzer.. It's fun to look at the HP-IB(us) the display flickers nice, but is there realy meaning full use for these analyzers ? -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zaterdag 18 april 2009 21:42 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard > > > > > How about KISS (keep it smart and simple). > > I've always expanded that as 'Keep it simple, stupid' :-). > > > Smart for the idea and simple for the building, exactly > what you did > > in my humble opinion. > > Thank you. I did conisder various mrthods of making a > keyboard for the HP120, including using a microcontroller to > interface a PC keyboard, but in the end went with (a) an HP > keyboard and (b) the sort of design I am happiest with. After > all, this is a hobby, so I can get to chose the design. > > > The use of the 4000 cmos series is in line with the > engineering of the > > HP120. > > Arguably using an 8048 microcontroller wouldn't have been out > of line. > After all the keyboard interface on the terminal PCB of an > HP120 (and on the CPU board of an HP150) is handled by an > 8041 (essentially an 8048 + host interface logic. I don't > think HP ever used PICs in this sort of machine (for all they > were certainly around at the time). > > I did use an EPROM that was far too large, I guess. I only > needed 256 bytes. But using a 1702 or a 2708 was going to be > a lot of work (I would have to generate a -ve supply). A 2716 > would have been the the 'right' > choice, I guess, but 27C64s are a lot easier to find. > > > And like you said HP150 keyboards are 'easy' to find ;-) > > And rememeber I haven't ruined the one I've modified. If you > just want to use it with the HP150, you just flick a swtich > and you get the HP150 key mapping back. If you weant to > return it to the original condtion, just dismantle and remove > the modification stuff, pulg a 4024 into the socket on the > keyboard PCB, and find some way to plug the 4 holes in the > top case (or replace the top case with one from a spare > keyboard -- it was used on other HP keybaords too). Not too bad. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 18 15:28:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:28:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <760FA552247E40EB868EF0E18EBD505D@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 18, 9 10:09:38 pm Message-ID: > > And now something completely different......(free after monty python) :-) > Did you ever use the HP 59401A HP-IB analyzer ? Yes, I have one, and have a fair idea how it works. The lower PCB is the PSU (the +5V switching regulator is somewhat odd), the data capture RAM and data path circuits The upper PCB contains 2 seaprate sections. The display driver in the front left corner and the main control state machine, based round those 4 ROM chips in the middle. I can provide a _lot_ more info on it if you need it. [...] > It's fun to look at the HP-IB(us) the display flickers nice, but is = > there > realy meaning full use for these analyzers ? It's not very useful for mass stroage devices (it can't hold enough data, and if you single-step it, the host connected to said mass storage device generally times out and gives an error). But I've found it very useful for examping data to/from HPIB instruments, and for testing HPIB interfaces, printers, etc. -tony From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Sat Apr 18 16:02:30 2009 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:02:30 +0100 Subject: pdp11/15 find Message-ID: <6266D1ED9626483D8EFB91F0CB724C1C@D4BZH92J> As an unexpected freebie while I was picking up another pdp8 I've acquired a small pdp11/15. I'm really an 8-man so this is a bit of a foreigner but it seemed a shame to let it be thrown away. It seems to be a fairly small system in a single box but beautifully clean for a change ;o). The configuration sheet shows KC11, KF11-A, DL11, KG11-A, MM11-F, MM11-f, DD11-A and H720F which seems to reflect the contents OK. I've started browsing around but I'd welcome anyone giving me a rundown on what these modules build up to. I was quite interested to see the construction method with the cards upside-down in the backplane and a snazzy rotatable rack mount for servicing - unusual (to me at least). Bob From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Sat Apr 18 16:12:24 2009 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:12:24 +0100 Subject: Dataram DR118A in PDP8 Message-ID: My newest pdp8 has an OEM Dataram DR118A memory module as well as some DEC core. Does anyone have a data sheet for this or know what size it is and how to check/set the field addresses for it? Thanks - Bob From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 18 16:47:14 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:47:14 -0600 Subject: Did I say SGI 4D/220? Message-ID: I really meant SGI 4D/310 VGX. It turns out the machines I picked up at gummint auction from NASA Langley were better than I thought! Thanks to some help form fellow local cctalk'er Tim Riker, I was able to move these from a neighbouring business to the warehouse. For some stupid reason Estes freight delivered them there instead of calling me and leaving me a voicemail message. After they delivered them to the wrong place they never bothered to call me and tell me about it. Grrr. Anyway, these look like nice systems. They are in good cosmetic shape too. Now I need to find some power cords, disk drives and IRIX media for them and get them up and running again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 18 17:05:17 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:05:17 -0500 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49EA4E9D.4040006@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Thank you. I did conisder various mrthods of making a keyboard for the > HP120, including using a microcontroller to interface a PC keyboard, but > in the end went with (a) an HP keyboard and (b) the sort of design I am > happiest with. After all, this is a hobby, so I can get to chose the design. > One can't argue with that. If there are folks out there with similar interfacing needs who want to pursue a uC approach and need help, feel free to throw the request out to the list. Folks like myself are happy to help. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 17:16:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:16:00 -0400 Subject: Dataram DR118A in PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Bob Adamson wrote: > My newest pdp8 has an OEM ?Dataram DR118A memory module as well as some DEC > core. Does anyone have a data sheet for this or know what size it is and how > to check/set the field addresses for it? Hi, Bob, I have a small amount of experience with non-DEC core... lacking a manual, I'd look for a set of three jumpers together - in that era, they tended to be solder jumpers, not modern 0.1" jumper blocks. Frequently (but not always, of course), you'll see markings on the silk screen like 0, 1, 2 or EMA1, EMA2, EMA3. Worst case, you could trace back the EMA lines from the OMNIBUS to see where they end up - there'll be some sort of circuit there to handle memory select, and I'd predict it's within an inch or two of the correct fingers on the bus. If you just can't find the jumpers, you could remove the other core and poke at memory space with the front panel. I don't recall any core under 4K, so you have 8 addresses to test. Try reading, then writing and reading. Of course, if it needs repair, that won't work so well, but it won't take long to try. -ethan From lists at databasics.us Sat Apr 18 17:17:20 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:17:20 -1000 Subject: H720 PSU? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49EA5170.5060400@databasics.us> Tony Duell wrote: > But I haev no intention of short-circuiting my 11/44 PSU to see if I can weld a screwdriver to the terminals. > > -tony Erm, trust me on this -- you can. Don't ask. Warren From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 18 17:30:14 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:30:14 +0200 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <760FA552247E40EB868EF0E18EBD505D@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr18, 9 10:09:38 pm Message-ID: <6EB2D9D6145E4CB2873187AF94DB6A56@xp1800> Ok? thanks, I got the user/service manual, it's handy when fixing the thing. I'll try it out when I'm going to play with the multi-programmer. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zaterdag 18 april 2009 22:29 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard > > > > > And now something completely different......(free after > monty python) > > :-) > > > Did you ever use the HP 59401A HP-IB analyzer ? > > Yes, I have one, and have a fair idea how it works. > > The lower PCB is the PSU (the +5V switching regulator is > somewhat odd), the data capture RAM and data path circuits > > The upper PCB contains 2 seaprate sections. The display > driver in the front left corner and the main control state > machine, based round those 4 ROM chips in the middle. > > I can provide a _lot_ more info on it if you need it. > > [...] > > > It's fun to look at the HP-IB(us) the display flickers > nice, but is = > > there realy meaning full use for these analyzers ? > > It's not very useful for mass stroage devices (it can't hold > enough data, and if you single-step it, the host connected to > said mass storage device generally times out and gives an > error). But I've found it very useful for examping data > to/from HPIB instruments, and for testing HPIB interfaces, > printers, etc. > > -tony > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 18 18:13:04 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... Message-ID: ...and tricking the computer into thinking it's a 5.25" hard sectored disk...in an H8.. [This is from the sehbc Heathkit list - I figured there may be some interested in what he's done] ------------------- On Friday (04/17/2009 at 07:12PM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Chris > How did you solve the problem of the speed changes > while the disk is spinning? Several people have tried > to do this so we are all wondering. > Also, have you checked several different drive > manufactures. Each has a little different quality > of speed control. Most all 3.5s are crystal or resonator > controlled so the average speed is usually right on > but the speed caqn drift from revolution to revolution > around that value. Hi Dwight... I will admit that this little project took a lot more effort than I initially expected-- and Carroll W can confirm that!! We were both working on the problem from different directions. He provided a lot of info in the beginning which laid the ground work for me. I use an ATMEL ATTiny2313 microcontroller and make heavy use of one of the timer/counter units. I have the counter running at 8 MHz/64 = 8uS period. Then, each time MOTOR ON goes true, I waste two revs of the media "figuring things out". The first rev is completely ignored as I assume the media is probably not up to speed yet. The second rev is used to calculate the speed of the media. I count the total number of 8uS ticks that occurred over that rev, divide by 200 (one rev should take 200mS) and the result is the number of ticks per mS in "floppy time". I then use this value to stage the pseudo pulses starting at the next real index pulse. The code is as simple then as, PulseAt00(); PulseAt10(); PulseAt10(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); PulseAt20(); where each of those is a simple delay that counts the number of ticks of the timer/counter to equal the required number of milliseconds and then it generates an index pulse. The timing is done in the hardware by the timer/counter unit and I am simply clearing and then polling that counter to determine when its the right time to move on. I have tested with three different brands of floppy drives. Two were a success and one was an abysmal failure. Sony MPF920 work real nice. Teac FD-235F also work great and Samsung SFD-321B are useless-- because they have made them so cheap that they do not even support 720K media any more. The density sense switch is completely missing from the drive, and they are forced to always run in 1.44M (500kbps MFM) mode. That's a show stopper since for the H-17/H-88-1 we need 250Kbps MFM mode which is what 720K 3.5" media uses. I use 1.44M floppies but then cover up the high-density hole with a piece of tape, which makes them 720K media then. Anyway, I did a lot of testing... a lot of scoping-- with my digital scope and logic analyzer and I'm pretty confident this is a reliable solution. The success with "TEST17" on HDOS was the final sign-off and that is consistent now with either of the good drives and exchanging the media between them. I make no attempt to support multiple drives with one microcontroller-- because they are so cheap, I just put one per drive and then I don't have to manage state tables for more than one, etc. I just use the RC oscillator as the clock for the micro too-- so there's no crystals or osc to wire up. Since it recomputes the tick counter each time the motor turns on, if the processor clock has drifted, that gets accounted for in the recalculation-- but my experience is that these AVRs are pretty stable across typical room temp conditions anyway. I think the thing that stumped me the longest was that I was not disabling my INDEX output fast enough when the drive was deselected. I ended up with a 74LS38 external to the micro to solve this problem-- which then also gives me lots of drive back to the controller and a true open collector output which can be bussed on the floppy cable just like any other drive. Chris -- Chris Elmquist --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SEBHC" group. To post to this group, send email to sebhc at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sebhc+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Apr 18 18:36:57 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:36:57 -0500 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project In-Reply-To: <49E92440.7DBED13A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E8647A.5010105@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E92440.7DBED13A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49EA6419.3070802@pacbell.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:47, Mark Wickens wrote: >>> >>>> I have a 68000 MECB clone board and a large number (70+) seven segments >>>> that I would like to do a project with - I'm open to interesting an >>>> novel suggestions! ... > > Somebody on the list was talking about an interactive electronic Sudoku game a > while ago. > > Another 30- seven-seg displays and you could do that. You'd need 81 displays for sudoku, not 100. Anyway, I think a simple light chaser would be cool, if you found some nice patterns. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 18 18:45:30 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:45:30 -0500 Subject: 1966 Lunar Orbiter image tapes rescued in LA Times: via AmpexFR-900 In-Reply-To: <49EA1AD5.11F5BBE2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> <49E99914.4070008@update.uu.se> <49EA1AD5.11F5BBE2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:24:20 -0700 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: Re: 1966 Lunar Orbiter image tapes rescued in LA Times: via AmpexFR-900 > > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > > John Foust wrote: > > > http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/22/nation/na-lunar22 > > > > > > http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2008/11/image_collection_from_a_garage.html > > > > > > http://neverworld.net/lunar/ > > > > > > http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/02files/Lunar_Orbiter_Tapes_Found.html > > > > > > http://twitter.com/lunarOrbiter > > > > Are these the same tapes mentioned here? > > > > http://thinkingshift.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/the-curious-case-of-lost-nasa-tapes/ > > > > Pretty awesome though, that lady Evans is a real hero! > > Looked like a really fun project to work on. I like the picture of the sleeping > bag laid out amidst the stacks of tapes in the "recovery laboratory" (abandoned > McDonalds restaurant). > > There was some mention of the analog tape format but I wish there had been a > little more technical write-up of the old equipment and the transfer process > and issues they went through. The lunar orbiter missing tapes story is not nearly as interesting as the LOST lunar landing tapes in the thinkingshift link above. They still have not found these - the images were much better that what we saw. A little surfing turned up the lunar camera manual: http://radsite.lbl.gov/radiance/refer/Notes/gamma.html The TV telemetry and communications documents are here: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-TVDocs.html I worked on these recorders - I did moon quake data reduction (Apollo ALSEP) for the University of Texas when NASA shifted priorities to Skylab. The nuclear powered seismometers were all still functioning and sending live data. NASA had no use for them anymore, so we took over. The recording/playback machines were called 'Wideband Instrumentation Recorders' and handled analog data up to 500KHz or so. They recorded in both FM and direct (baseband) modes. The recording was of course a digital one, and we recovered the data and transcribed it to digital 7 track on a PDP 15. We plotted the seismic data on Versatec electrostatic 'wet' type printers. Whenever we were plotting, and we came upon an 'event' either a moonquake or a meteor strike, the geophysics guys had a field day. On one occasion, NASA crashed the spent SIV-B stage into the moon, just to see what happened. The moon is solid, a crystal and no molten core. Following the impact, it 'rang like a bell' for almost an hour. We got the bright idea to speed it up a bit, D/A convert it and listen. Id did indeed sound like a bell... well more like a cymbal crash. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 18 19:27:55 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:27:55 -0700 Subject: 68000 seven-segment project References: <49E85015.7030905@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E8647A.5010105@wickensonline.co.uk> <49E92440.7DBED13A@cs.ubc.ca> <49EA6419.3070802@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49EA700B.952477C2@cs.ubc.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:47, Mark Wickens wrote: > >>> > >>>> I have a 68000 MECB clone board and a large number (70+) seven segments > >>>> that I would like to do a project with - I'm open to interesting an > >>>> novel suggestions! > ... > > > > Somebody on the list was talking about an interactive electronic Sudoku game a > > while ago. > > > > Another 30- seven-seg displays and you could do that. > > You'd need 81 displays for sudoku, not 100. Hah! thanks for the correction; I actually have only seen Sudoku puzzles a couple of times, and obviously forgot their was no "0" involved. All the better for the OP... A touch-screen over the display matrix would be neat. > Anyway, I think a simple light chaser would be cool, if you found some > nice patterns. From mike at fenz.net Sun Apr 19 00:56:45 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:56:45 +1200 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> <49E99914.4070008@update.uu.se> <49EA1AD5.11F5BBE2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49EABD1D.1040004@fenz.net> Hi, Just thought I'd ask if anyone has the service info for the standard IIGS colour monitor (official name seems to be "Applecolor RGB Monitor"), in this case A2M6014X. A bit of background: When I tried to start up my IIGS a few days ago, I was disappointed to get no life out of the monitor (though a spare composite monitor was OK for temporary use). Signs pointed to a fairly easy fix; the power supply seemed OK, it had HV, I could hear it syncing when I turned the IIGS off and on. So, I put it on my workbench, grabbed the schematics (http://apple2.info/downloads), and realised that I couldn't remember much about how this works, but it's analog RGB, so how hard can it be? I wound the screen pot up a little, and was able to see scan on the screen; when I turned the IIGS on, the scan/retrace lines stabilised, so at least sync seems OK. Checking test points, I got a nice clean signal on the input (TP1R, G, B I think), and also at the output of the AN5356 interface (TP2R, G, B). But checking the drive at the tube socket, there was little to no activity, no trace of the almost digital-looking signal I was seeing on the other test points. However, I don't have a good understanding of the voltages I should expect to see at those test points, so the waveform may still not have been right. Any suggestions (or links to service info for this monitor) would be much appreciated! Or would I be better taking this to another list? I'm quite keen to improve my monitor troubleshooting knowledge, with the impending demise of CRT monitors and places to service them. Mike From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Apr 19 03:08:56 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:08:56 +0100 Subject: 1966 Lunar Orbiter image tapes rescued in LA Times: via AmpexFR-900 In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> <49E99914.4070008@update.uu.se> <49EA1AD5.11F5BBE2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1240128536.2526.23.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 18:45 -0500, Randy Dawson wrote: > an hour. We got the bright idea to speed it up a bit, D/A convert it > and listen. Id did indeed sound like a bell... well more like a > cymbal crash. Now I want a copy of *that*... Imagine that in your drum machine - '16" Rock Crash', '18" Paiste Crash', '2160 mile Moon Crash'... Gordon From rcini at optonline.net Sun Apr 19 08:33:46 2009 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:33:46 -0400 Subject: Apple //e system available Message-ID: All: I was contacted about an Apple //e system available in Montreal. The system consists of the //e, a DuoDisk drive, monitor and manuals but no software. If anyone?s interested, contact me off-list and I?ll give you the person?s email address. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 08:41:47 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 06:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shimatronic knitting machine controller PC Message-ID: <156747.41725.qm@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Bit of an odd one this, rescued along > with a Seiko graphics tablet (but > no puck) and a 15" rather nice Sony monitor that needs > 110V. > Certainly would be unusual. IIRC, Shima Seiki made their name in CNC circular knitting machines (that is, CNC machines that could knit tubular shapes like socks and gloves) and were in that field for many years, and according to their web site they still are around. The machine you have could have been a fabric design workstation although by the time of the 286 and 68000's Shima had branched out into more general purpose 2D CAD and paint systems. The company I worked for in the late 80's had 14 HDTV versions of the Shima Seiki paint system in the UK and Germany, and one low-res version which I think may be similar what you have found. I looked after them for a couple of years. They were certainly multi-processor in nature. I believe these were among the first NHK (analog) HDTV systems installed in Europe, using Sony HDTV monitors, and we established quite a close relationship with Sony Europe as a result. We were all terribly excited because Industrial Light and Magic also had a couple of Shima Seiki systems. These days of course they'd be old hat but in 89/90 they were quite something. -Dave From chrise at pobox.com Sat Apr 18 22:54:39 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:54:39 -0500 Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090419035439.GO31106@n0jcf.net> Hey! That's me! and I'm on this list too :-) Chris On Saturday (04/18/2009 at 04:13PM -0700), Gene Buckle wrote: > ...and tricking the computer into thinking it's a 5.25" hard sectored > disk...in an H8.. > > [This is from the sehbc Heathkit list - I figured there may be some > interested in what he's done] > ------------------- > > > On Friday (04/17/2009 at 07:12PM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: >> >> Hi Chris >> How did you solve the problem of the speed changes >> while the disk is spinning? Several people have tried >> to do this so we are all wondering. >> Also, have you checked several different drive >> manufactures. Each has a little different quality >> of speed control. Most all 3.5s are crystal or resonator >> controlled so the average speed is usually right on >> but the speed caqn drift from revolution to revolution >> around that value. > > Hi Dwight... > > I will admit that this little project took a lot more effort than I > initially expected-- and Carroll W can confirm that!! We were both > working on the problem from different directions. He provided a lot of > info in the beginning which laid the ground work for me. > > I use an ATMEL ATTiny2313 microcontroller and make heavy use of one of the > timer/counter units. I have the counter running at 8 MHz/64 = 8uS period. > > Then, each time MOTOR ON goes true, I waste two revs of the media > "figuring things out". The first rev is completely ignored as I assume > the media is probably not up to speed yet. The second rev is used to > calculate the speed of the media. I count the total number of 8uS ticks > that occurred over that rev, divide by 200 (one rev should take 200mS) > and the result is the number of ticks per mS in "floppy time". > > I then use this value to stage the pseudo pulses starting at the next > real index pulse. > > The code is as simple then as, > > PulseAt00(); > PulseAt10(); > PulseAt10(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > PulseAt20(); > > where each of those is a simple delay that counts the number of ticks > of the timer/counter to equal the required number of milliseconds and > then it generates an index pulse. The timing is done in the hardware > by the timer/counter unit and I am simply clearing and then polling that > counter to determine when its the right time to move on. > > I have tested with three different brands of floppy drives. Two were > a success and one was an abysmal failure. Sony MPF920 work real nice. > Teac FD-235F also work great and Samsung SFD-321B are useless-- because > they have made them so cheap that they do not even support 720K media > any more. The density sense switch is completely missing from the drive, > and they are forced to always run in 1.44M (500kbps MFM) mode. That's a > show stopper since for the H-17/H-88-1 we need 250Kbps MFM mode which is > what 720K 3.5" media uses. I use 1.44M floppies but then cover up the > high-density hole with a piece of tape, which makes them 720K media then. > > Anyway, I did a lot of testing... a lot of scoping-- with my digital > scope and logic analyzer and I'm pretty confident this is a reliable > solution. The success with "TEST17" on HDOS was the final sign-off and > that is consistent now with either of the good drives and exchanging the > media between them. > > I make no attempt to support multiple drives with one microcontroller-- > because they are so cheap, I just put one per drive and then I don't > have to manage state tables for more than one, etc. > > I just use the RC oscillator as the clock for the micro too-- so there's > no crystals or osc to wire up. Since it recomputes the tick counter > each time the motor turns on, if the processor clock has drifted, that > gets accounted for in the recalculation-- but my experience is that > these AVRs are pretty stable across typical room temp conditions anyway. > > I think the thing that stumped me the longest was that I was not > disabling my INDEX output fast enough when the drive was deselected. > I ended up with a 74LS38 external to the micro to solve this problem-- > which then also gives me lots of drive back to the controller and a true > open collector output which can be bussed on the floppy cable just like > any other drive. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SEBHC" group. > To post to this group, send email to sebhc at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sebhc+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sebhc?hl=en > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > -- Chris Elmquist From js at cimmeri.com Sun Apr 19 10:38:51 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:38:51 -0500 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49EABD1D.1040004@fenz.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090416124716.0448e8a8@mail.threedee.com> <49E99914.4070008@update.uu.se> <49EA1AD5.11F5BBE2@cs.ubc.ca> <49EABD1D.1040004@fenz.net> Message-ID: <49EB458B.9000405@cimmeri.com> I suggest posting this at comp.sys.apple2. Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Hi, > > Just thought I'd ask if anyone has the service info for the standard > IIGS colour monitor (official name seems to be "Applecolor RGB > Monitor"), in this case A2M6014X. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 19 11:24:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:24:43 -0700 Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: <20090419035439.GO31106@n0jcf.net> References: , <20090419035439.GO31106@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49EAEDDB.5758.2970158E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2009 at 22:54, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I use an ATMEL ATTiny2313 microcontroller and make heavy use of one > > of the timer/counter units. I have the counter running at 8 MHz/64 > > = 8uS period. Chris, I did the same thing with a Microchip 12F629 (another 8 pin uC) but applied to 5.25" drives, passing sector marks through when present, but otherwise generating 10 sector simulation. I kept my sampling to 16 bits using roughly that precision for a 167 msec rev and even timed each rev for the next one as I generated pulses for the current one to keep track of any long-term speed variations. Sector pulses were exactly 4 msec in length. My finding (with the help of Andrew Lynch) was that the rev-to-rev speed variation on old 5.25" 100 tpi drives was nowhere near stable enough; if the speed error from rev to rev varied by more than a few msec., you were dead. With the old open-loop DC tach circuit found on old 5.25" drives, this was more than likely. I don't have any systems using HS diskettes here; if someone wants my code, they're welcome to it; it's PIC assembly and will do both 300 and 360 RPM drives with the ability to generate 32, 16 or 10 sector marks. The same chip also generates a READY signal for drives that don't have them. It was a work in progress and I'm happy that you found a solution using modern 3.5" drives. My evaluation of 5.25" drives indicates to me that it would be a far better idea to physically mark sectors on the hub flywheel, use a sensor to grab them and then use a PIC to delay them to conform with the positon of the index hole. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 19 12:25:48 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for Metroworks CodeWarrior Pro 4 (or higher) Message-ID: <200904191725.n3JHPmVR014580@floodgap.com> I'm doing some classic Mac development and one of the projects I'm trying to update requires at least MetroWorks CodeWarrior Pro 4 or higher (I presume 5 or 6 would also work for Classic MacOS). Anyone out there getting rid of this, would be willing to sell theirs, or know where I can purchase it? Metroworks seems to have been bought out by Freescale and they don't offer any of their old MacOS development tools anymore. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters to moving crew: "Hey! Careful with those racks, Eugene!" ------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 19 12:39:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:39:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: <6EB2D9D6145E4CB2873187AF94DB6A56@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 19, 9 00:30:14 am Message-ID: > > Ok=E9 thanks, [HP59401 HPIB analyser] > I got the user/service manual, it's handy when fixing the thing. Does this manual have any detailed information (ROM dumps, state diagrams, etc) on the operation of the various state machines in the instrument. It's the only bit I've not seriously tried to understand yet. > I'll try it out when I'm going to play with the multi-programmer. Which multiprogrammer do you have? I have a 6940B with the 59500 HPIB interface (I had to make up the interconnecting cable, but it's just 50 pin microrions on each end, wired straight through) and a good selection of I/O cards. For doing quick tests on HPIB stuff like that, I find the handiest thing to used is an HP71B + HPIL interface + HP82169 HPIL-HPIB translator. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 19 12:49:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:49:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49EABD1D.1040004@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Apr 19, 9 05:56:45 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Just thought I'd ask if anyone has the service info for the standard > IIGS colour monitor (official name seems to be "Applecolor RGB > Monitor"), in this case A2M6014X. I don't have it, but I am not sure it'd be any more use to you than the schematics. Very few monitor service manuals (particularly ones for small, relatively simple montiros like this) have any form of fault-finding charts. Most of the time you're expected to work from the schematic [1] . [1] On the few occasions that I have had fault-finding charts for something I've been repairing, I've found them to be misleading and next-to-useless. I find it a lot easier to work from the schematics and figure out what should be going on. > > A bit of background: When I tried to start up my IIGS a few days ago, I > was disappointed to get no life out of the monitor (though a spare > composite monitor was OK for temporary use). Signs pointed to a fairly > easy fix; the power supply seemed OK, it had HV, I could hear it syncing > when I turned the IIGS off and on. OK, so the bits that normally fail seem to e working. > > So, I put it on my workbench, grabbed the schematics > (http://apple2.info/downloads), and realised that I couldn't remember > much about how this works, but it's analog RGB, so how hard can it be? I > wound the screen pot up a little, and was able to see scan on the > screen; when I turned the IIGS on, the scan/retrace lines stabilised, so > at least sync seems OK. Checking test points, I got a nice clean signal Right. This is an RGB input monitor, yes? > on the input (TP1R, G, B I think), and also at the output of the AN5356 > interface (TP2R, G, B). But checking the drive at the tube socket, there > was little to no activity, no trace of the almost digital-looking signal > I was seeing on the other test points. However, I don't have a good > understanding of the voltages I should expect to see at those test > points, so the waveform may still not have been right. OK, what is between the IC and the CRT cathodes (I've yet to see a colour monitor where hte video signal is applied to anything other than the cathodes)? Most likely some kind of transistor amplifier. Start there. Since all 3 gelectron uns are affected, look for a common cause. Either a missing power rail, or a blanking signal. Look at the votlage on the transistor pins, do they make sense? Or are the transistors always saturated or cut off? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 19 12:57:52 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:57:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: <49EAEDDB.5758.2970158E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 19, 9 09:24:43 am Message-ID: > My finding (with the help of Andrew Lynch) was that the rev-to-rev > speed variation on old 5.25" 100 tpi drives was nowhere near stable > enough; if the speed error from rev to rev varied by more than a few > msec., you were dead. With the old open-loop DC tach circuit found > on old 5.25" drives, this was more than likely. Random though (I've not tried anything like this..) Most of those speed control circuits used an AC tachogenerator built into the drive motor. Provided the beld doesn't slip, or you have a direct-drive motor (common in half-height drives) you should get a constant number of cycles from that generator per revolution. Could you divide that down to produce hard sector pulses? Another random thought.... Most of these hard-sector drives were single-sided. Most modern drives are double-sideed. How about recording timing pulses on the normally unused side of the disk and adding extra electronics to the drive (basiclaly just a second read amplifier chain) to pick them up and produce sector pulses? Some hard drives used divided-down signals from the sevo surface for this sort of thing. -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 13:28:45 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:28:45 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project Message-ID: <0C33C7856F6940928E58D9367D8E03E2@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:29 AM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project > > Hi!? I've been working on a home brew S-100 backplane as a side project [snip] Hi! The experimental prototype S-100 backplanes will be available in about 3 weeks. They will cost $32 each plus shipping which should be $2 in the US and $5 overseas. All the parts are common and available from the usual suppliers such as Mouser, Digikey, etc. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From john_finigan at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 13:31:01 2009 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (john_finigan at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tru64 and HP-UX swap Message-ID: <109587.4480.qm@web37008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm looking for install CD images for HP-UX 10.30, 10.20, and 9.X (series 700), and also Digital Unix 4.0X. If anybody has one of these and is interested in getting CD images for Tru64 5.1A or HP-UX 11i v1 in trade, please email me off list. Please note that 5.1A won't install on DEC 3000, as far as I know (certainly won't on my 3000 model 300). Thanks, John From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 19 13:52:08 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:52:08 +0200 Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <6EB2D9D6145E4CB2873187AF94DB6A56@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr19, 9 00:30:14 am Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 19 april 2009 19:40 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Remapping the HP150 keyboard > > > > > Ok=E9 thanks, > > [HP59401 HPIB analyser] > > > I got the user/service manual, it's handy when fixing the thing. > > Does this manual have any detailed information (ROM dumps, > state diagrams, etc) on the operation of the various state > machines in the instrument. It's the only bit I've not > seriously tried to understand yet. I'll have the ROM listings, if you want a scan let me know. No state machines, except a overview diagram. > > I'll try it out when I'm going to play with the multi-programmer. > > Which multiprogrammer do you have? I have a 6940B with the > 59500 HPIB interface (I had to make up the interconnecting > cable, but it's just 50 pin microrions on each end, wired > straight through) and a good selection of I/O cards. I've a 6942A multi-programmer and am awaiting some cards and connectors I've ordered. I do have some digital in/output cards, but no A/D cards so I got one on epay and wait.. > For doing quick tests on HPIB stuff like that, I find the > handiest thing to used is an HP71B + HPIL interface + HP82169 > HPIL-HPIB translator. Why this combination and not a HP 9816 or other basic machine with HP-IB ? > -tony -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 19 13:55:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:55:06 -0700 Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: References: <49EAEDDB.5758.2970158E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 19, 9 09:24:43 am, Message-ID: <49EB111A.10717.29F9BA4F@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2009 at 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Random though (I've not tried anything like this..) Most of those > speed control circuits used an AC tachogenerator built into the drive > motor. Provided the beld doesn't slip, or you have a direct-drive > motor (common in half-height drives) you should get a constant number > of cycles from that generator per revolution. Could you divide that > down to produce hard sector pulses? It's a possiblility, although it would be drive-specific. As I've mentioned, I don't have any systems that require HS drives; I just did this as an exercise. > Another random thought.... Most of these hard-sector drives were > single-sided. Most modern drives are double-sideed. How about > recording timing pulses on the normally unused side of the disk and > adding extra electronics to the drive (basiclaly just a second read > amplifier chain) to pick them up and produce sector pulses? Some hard > drives used divided-down signals from the sevo surface for this sort > of thing. Certainly, but again, drive-specific rather than a general solution. I suspect that there's also considerably more "drag" caused by a 5.25" drive jacket and that it's less constant than what one would find in a 3.5" rigid-jacketed drive. All in all, a 3.5" is probably a better choice, but doesn't address the issue of using either HS or SS media in the same drive. I also considered an "embedded sector" solution wherein a disk would be pre-formatted with a unique pattern) that could be easily detected by external circuitry, conditioned by a timing window. (Isn't that called an "Address Mark? :) ) Whether or not the system using it would over-write the pattern is another issue. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, eh? --Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Apr 19 13:55:34 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:55:34 -0400 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project In-Reply-To: <0C33C7856F6940928E58D9367D8E03E2@andrewdesktop> References: <0C33C7856F6940928E58D9367D8E03E2@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200904191455.35210.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 19 April 2009 02:28:45 pm Andrew Lynch wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:29 AM > > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > > Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project > > > > Hi!? I've been working on a home brew S-100 backplane as a side project > > [snip] > > Hi! The experimental prototype S-100 backplanes will be available in about > 3 weeks. They will cost $32 each plus shipping which should be $2 in the > US and $5 overseas. All the parts are common and available from the usual > suppliers such as Mouser, Digikey, etc. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch Do they carry the connectors as well? I have around somewhere a partially-completed Vector backplane, and I should probably finish it up one of these days, but the connectors are one of the items I'm missing so far. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 19 14:13:48 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:13:48 +0100 Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: <49EB111A.10717.29F9BA4F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EAEDDB.5758.2970158E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 19, 9 09:24:43 am, <49EB111A.10717.29F9BA4F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49EB77EC.8010507@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I also considered an "embedded sector" solution wherein a disk would > be pre-formatted with a unique pattern) that could be easily detected > by external circuitry, conditioned by a timing window. (Isn't that > called an "Address Mark? :) ) The issues as I see them are: - If you use the B-side of a 5.25" DSDD disc, you need something to write that formatting - If you add something to sync to the index marks and generate a hard-sector "emulation" index pattern from that, you can't put a HS disc in that drive What about just detecting the speed of the input index pulse? If they're turning up faster than, say, once every quarter-second, then bypass the index-pulse multiplier. Basically have a multiplexer that allows the output to be sourced from /Index_In, or /Index_Generated. > Whether or not the system using it would over-write the pattern is > another issue. True. You'd probably have to jack into WRGATE and force-disable it to stop the address mark getting overwritten. And you still need to build something to format these crazy discs. And I'd appreciate it if someone was kind enough to document the format :) > But there's more than one way to skin a cat, eh? Depends if you want the skin, the meat, or just a Mythbusters-style big explosion... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 19 14:23:07 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:23:07 -0300 Subject: home brew S-100 backplane project References: <0C33C7856F6940928E58D9367D8E03E2@andrewdesktop> <200904191455.35210.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <210101c9c124$e0ab35b0$e30419bb@desktaba> >Do they carry the connectors as well? I have around somewhere a >partially-completed Vector backplane, and I should probably finish it up >one >of these days, but the connectors are one of the items I'm missing so >far. :-) My problem is the connectors. I can do the board here, but I cannot find S-100 connectors in Brazil :( From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 19 14:34:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:34:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remapping the HP150 keyboard In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 19, 9 08:52:08 pm Message-ID: > > [HP59401 HPIB analyser] > > > > > I got the user/service manual, it's handy when fixing the thing. > > > > Does this manual have any detailed information (ROM dumps, > > state diagrams, etc) on the operation of the various state > > machines in the instrument. It's the only bit I've not > > seriously tried to understand yet. > > I'll have the ROM listings, if you want a scan let me know. > No state machines, except a overview diagram. That could be useful... If you have time to scan it sometime (no hurry, my 59401 is working perfectly at the momnet), please send any scans to tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk, and not here. Thanks in advance for any help. > > > For doing quick tests on HPIB stuff like that, I find the > > handiest thing to used is an HP71B + HPIL interface + HP82169 > > HPIL-HPIB translator. > > Why this combination and not a HP 9816 or other basic machine with HP-IB ? It's a lot smaller for one thing (read : I can noramlly find space for a 71B on the bench, fiding space for a 9816 + disk drive is a bit harder!). It has BASIC in ROM, I don't need to boot it from disk. And the HPIB interface is not shared with the boot device, which means that whatever the device-under-test is doing, it's not going to prevent the machine from booting, or worse still corrupt the boot disk. Yes, I _could_ configure my 9816 with ROM BASIC and/or a 98624 HPIB card and avoid those problems, (I have both of those PCBs), but it still wouldn't make space for it on the bench. -tony From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 19 15:30:44 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:30:44 -0700 Subject: Missing Fig 2. from IMSAI front-panel modifications... Message-ID: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> Well, while I'm waiting for various things to arrive to aid my resuscitation of my 11/40, I'm back to working on my IMSAI 8080. The front panel does not work quite right with the combination of CPU and RAM I have in the machine, so I've been debugging various things and have made some decent progress. Now Examine and Examine Next work properly. Deposit/Deposit Next, however, do not. Reading through the CPA manual I got from http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/imsai/cpa.pdf, there's a modification that needs to be done to get the front panel to work with non-IMSAI RAM cards -- this has not been done to my front panel. Seems that that might be at least part of the problem. But step 3 (see pg 26, for those following along at home) refers to Fig 2, referencing points A & B. Figure 2 is not in the PDF. There is a schematic on page 28 outlining the change, but it's unreadable. Anyone have a copy of Fig 2 they can share? Thanks! Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 19 17:17:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:17:21 -0700 Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: <49EB77EC.8010507@philpem.me.uk> References: <49EAEDDB.5758.2970158E@cclist.sydex.com>, <49EB111A.10717.29F9BA4F@cclist.sydex.com>, <49EB77EC.8010507@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49EB4081.7409.2AB2F2A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2009 at 20:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > - If you add something to sync to the index marks and generate a > hard-sector "emulation" index pattern from that, you can't put a HS > disc in that drive Not so--it'd work the same way my PIC solution does--while it's sampling the drive speed (and not passing index pulses) it's looking for sector holes. If it finds them, it hangs back and allows index pulses to flow through. If it sees an index pulse every 166/200 msec or so, it knows to start generating sector pulses on the next rev. > What about just detecting the speed of the input index pulse? If > they're turning up faster than, say, once every quarter-second, then > bypass the index-pulse multiplier. Basically have a multiplexer that > allows the output to be sourced from /Index_In, or /Index_Generated. Exactly what my PIC code does. But the base issue is really the ISV characteristics of the drive's speed control. Direct-drive 3.5" drives are probably much better than old 5.25" belt-drive drives. I suspect that consistent speed control issues may have originally been the reason for NEC specifying 8x512 format for a "360K" diskette. --Chuck From vp at drexel.edu Sun Apr 19 17:36:38 2009 From: vp at drexel.edu (vp) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 01:36:38 +0300 Subject: HP 59401A HP-IB analyzer (was Remapping the HP150 keyboard) Message-ID: <87765220-0C5F-4AAB-93B1-2EED2E87338B@drexel.edu> "Rik Bos" wrote: > It's fun to look at the HP-IB(us) the display flickers nice, but is there > realy meaning full use for these analyzers ? I have one of these as well. Mine is in excellent condition. I did use it to debug an HP 59309A Digital Clock and it was quite useful (although without the service manual for the 59309A I wouldn't have gone far). I also used the HP 59401A to help me understand the Amigo protocol for a floppy emulator. So its useful, but its slow and cumbersome (its fun entering HP-IB commands using the switches on the front when playing around, but for recurrent and complex tasks you'd rather use a computer). You can't even leave it connected to the HP-IB bus all the time, because it slows it down and causes some devices to complain. Nevertheless its a great addition to any "blinkenlights" display. **vp www.series80.org From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 19:53:50 2009 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found this interesting use of old hardware Message-ID: <175466.69862.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Queen Bohemian Rhapsody Old School Computer Remix Atari 800XL was used for the lead piano/organ sound Texas Instruments TI-99/4a as lead guitar 8 Inch Floppy Disk as Bass 3.5 inch Harddrive as the gong HP ScanJet 3C was used for all vocals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4 From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 20:19:10 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:19:10 -0700 Subject: Found this interesting use of old hardware In-Reply-To: <175466.69862.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <175466.69862.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090904191819w219adb8bobedbd90f0618af4a@mail.gmail.com> that unreal On 4/19/09, William Blair wrote: > > > Queen Bohemian Rhapsody Old School Computer Remix > > Atari 800XL was used for the lead piano/organ sound > Texas Instruments TI-99/4a as lead guitar > 8 Inch Floppy Disk as Bass > 3.5 inch Harddrive as the gong > HP ScanJet 3C was used for all vocals. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4 > > > > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun Apr 19 21:38:08 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:38:08 -0700 Subject: Found this interesting use of old hardware References: <175466.69862.qm@web111502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c9c161$0a7fb5a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Just the kind of blasphemous use of equipment I like ! Thanks ! Bye-the-bye that oscilloscope looks like an Eico 460, the first scope I ever built / used. On a good day with a tailwind you could almost get a 3 MHz bandwidth out of it .... Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Blair" To: Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 5:53 PM Subject: Found this interesting use of old hardware > > Queen Bohemian Rhapsody Old School Computer Remix > > Atari 800XL was used for the lead piano/organ sound > Texas Instruments TI-99/4a as lead guitar > 8 Inch Floppy Disk as Bass > 3.5 inch Harddrive as the gong > HP ScanJet 3C was used for all vocals. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 19 23:24:59 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:24:59 -0500 Subject: List behaviour (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca>, <49E7B1D3.1030601@dunnington.plus.com> <49E75DDE.21713.1B857208@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST> Actually, that is a pretty good idea. The server is well up to the task. There would have to be a good mechanism to prevent the server becoming a warez/pr0n dumping grounds from others. And there would have to be a good way to give files time limits so temp transfers between members don't sit there forever. Someone send me a proftpd.conf for it and I'll look it over :) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:33 PM Subject: Re: List behaviour (was Re: Intercept Jr. Schematics) > On 16 Apr 2009 at 23:31, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> I thought this was in the FAQ, but it's not. It has, though, been >> explained several times over the years. The mailing list does not >> allow attachments, by design, as it's intended for discussion, not >> filestore, and presumably most of the (thousands?) of subscribers >> wouldn't be interested in any one particular attachment (like >> schematics). It also doesn't allow HTML; it's meant to be >> lightweight. > > Now that we're on a new server, would it be an abuse of the list > owner's (and admin's) good graces to request a ftp area for the > subscribers' use? One could then distribute a file (such as that > used for those Intercept Jr. schematics to the list. > > Just a thought, > Chuck > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 20 00:02:59 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:02:59 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <49E7AAB1.1020404@jetnet.ab.ca>, <49E7B1D3.1030601@dunnington.plus.com> <49E75DDE.21713.1B857208@cclist.sydex.com> <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> Jay West wrote: > Actually, that is a pretty good idea. The server is well up to the task. It concerns me. Jay's already providing a lot of free stuff, and managing the list. There are hundreds of free binary hosting sites online, I'd recommend people use those instead. http://www.google.com/search?q=free+file+hosting Before anyone starts about how they all require a web browser, here's one I quickly found that allows uploads via FTP http://www.axifile.com/ I am sure there are others, if that one is too "web-by" for folks in here. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 20 00:21:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:21:02 -0700 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2009 at 0:02, Jim Brain wrote: > It concerns me. Jay's already providing a lot of free stuff, and > managing the list. There are hundreds of free binary hosting sites > online, I'd recommend people use those instead. Jim, my reason for asking for this is that an ftp site associated with the list might give the content a bit more of a chance to be there when you or I next need it. You've run into the "well, it used to be there" wall more than once, I'm sure. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 20 00:59:25 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:59:25 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49EC0F3D.6040709@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Apr 2009 at 0:02, Jim Brain wrote: > > >> It concerns me. Jay's already providing a lot of free stuff, and >> managing the list. There are hundreds of free binary hosting sites >> online, I'd recommend people use those instead. >> > > Jim, my reason for asking for this is that an ftp site associated > with the list might give the content a bit more of a chance to be > there when you or I next need it. You've run into the "well, it used > to be there" wall more than once, I'm sure. > > For whatever it's worth, > Chuck > It's a valid point, but how do we ensure that the information is not subject to FTP site "entropy"? I can see information getting dumped there, and then no one picks up and stores it in the proper place (site with related information, in a directory structure that makes sense) because it's "taken care of". Then, as times goes on, the site ends up with so much uncategorized information that we must rely on the archives to sort out what a file actually holds. If someone volunteers to manage the layout and ensure stuff gets to a reasonable spot with a reasonable name, my concerns are addressed, but I don't want to saddle Jay with that responsibility. Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 20 04:35:07 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:35:07 +0100 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EC0F3D.6040709@jbrain.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> <49EC0F3D.6040709@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <49EC41CB.5050502@philpem.me.uk> Jim Brain wrote: > It's a valid point, but how do we ensure that the information is not > subject to FTP site "entropy"? The obvious solution would be to get a couple of mirror sites rsync'ing against each other... > I can see information getting dumped > there, and then no one picks up and stores it in the proper place (site > with related information, in a directory structure that makes sense) > because it's "taken care of". Then, as times goes on, the site ends up > with so much uncategorized information that we must rely on the archives > to sort out what a file actually holds. You could always force uploaders to specify a category and/or description of every file they upload. An archive link would be even better, but you're not going to know that until you've uploaded the file and posted the message... > If someone volunteers to manage the layout and ensure stuff gets to a > reasonable spot with a reasonable name, my concerns are addressed, but I > don't want to saddle Jay with that responsibility. I'd be willing to set something up, but I don't want "people with questionable morals" using it to share MP3s and so forth -- ideally I'd want it to be accessible only by cctalk/cctech members, but IIRC there isn't an easy way to check that. The best idea I can come up with is to rig up a script that attempts to log into the Mailman subscription options page (which only requires an email address) and bomb out if Mailman rejects the email address... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Apr 20 06:28:19 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:28:19 -0400 Subject: Missing Fig 2. from IMSAI front-panel modifications... In-Reply-To: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49EC5C53.1020301@comcast.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > [snip] > > Figure 2 is not in the PDF. There is a schematic on page 28 outlining > the change, but it's unreadable. > > Anyone have a copy of Fig 2 they can share? I'm glad you mentioned this, I was looking thru my original manual and didn't find these pages. Mine only has the one mod starting on pg.29. I'll take a look around too and try to find this in other pdf's =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 07:56:26 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:56:26 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Apr 2009 at 0:02, Jim Brain wrote: > >> It concerns me. Jay's already providing a lot of free stuff, and >> managing the list. There are hundreds of free binary hosting sites >> online, I'd recommend people use those instead. > > Jim, my reason for asking for this is that an ftp site associated > with the list might give the content a bit more of a chance to be > there when you or I next need it. I suspect for *most* cases there's a more appropriate place for the content though, i.e. with one of the specific-interest websites where (like classiccmp) it's unlikely to just vanish - but if anything it's 'safer' there because it will be less likely to get lost in the noise. I think it'd be nice if a classiccmp FTP server was just for "temporary stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else" - rather than a permanent home, as permanent homes probably already exist in most situations. (but does that imply that it'd be useful for classiccmp to act as some kind of search engine / registry for niche sites* out on the 'net?) * some of which would probably still be classiccmp-hosted, I suppose. cheers Jules (who isn't nearly awake enough for thinking yet) From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 20 08:42:52 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 20 Apr 2009 at 0:02, Jim Brain wrote: > >> It concerns me. Jay's already providing a lot of free stuff, and >> managing the list. There are hundreds of free binary hosting sites >> online, I'd recommend people use those instead. > You know, there's this neat thing they used to use in the olden days for transferring files between people. I think it was called a BBS. :) Seriously though, I run a BBS called The Retro Archive that is available 24/7 over the net and supports both regular telnet and ssh. Because the "standard" file transfer protocols like XMODEM, YMODEM and ZMODEM are available, any computer no matter the vintage can connect to the system if it has a serial port on it. Jim's tcpser program is the perfect thing for stuff like this. tcpser is available for both Win32 and Linux systems and may work on others. You can find tcpser here: http://www.jbrain.com/pub/linux/serial/ Win32 users that don't want to compile from source (Cygwin is used to build under win32) just need to grab the tcpser.exe and cygwin1.dll files from the above link. If there is interest, I'd be happy to set up a special transfer area for you folks to use. It wouldn't require "validation" of the new user account to reach. I can also enable FTP so those that want can reach the files via that method once they create an account on the BBS. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 20 08:43:38 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 20 Apr 2009 at 0:02, Jim Brain wrote: > >> It concerns me. Jay's already providing a lot of free stuff, and >> managing the list. There are hundreds of free binary hosting sites >> online, I'd recommend people use those instead. > *facepalm* The bbs address is bbs.retroarchive.org. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 20 09:32:07 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:32:07 +0200 Subject: Plugging : VT100 on epay Message-ID: DEC VT100 item : 370190217282 It's not HP so it has to go. -Rik From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 20 09:39:27 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:39:27 -0300 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <25ee01c9c1c7$130b9a70$e30419bb@desktaba> > it has a serial port on it. Jim's tcpser program is the perfect thing for > stuff like this. tcpser is available for both Win32 and Linux systems and > may work on others. Hmmm...I just remembered a very ancient (and funny) fact. Some decades ago, I had two 486' and a 386 networked with lantastic and personal netware (yes...I was something you can call "rich" as a 16-year-old boy working repairing computers) and had my own BBS. These were the times, where it was hard as hell to put more than two modems in the same computer (I hadn't discovered major bbs yet, I used RA + deskview + QEMM). Since the computers were tied to my BBS nodes, I wanted to have a CHEAP serial terminal for a "local sysop" node. I had a msx with serial port...hmmm... It was easy :) Opened a DOORWAY session inside deskview and connected the MSX to the serial port. I was "running MSDOS 5" on MSX, no one understood how it could be possible hehehehe :oD And this was my permanent local node. So bad it didn't had ANSI. These were the times... From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 20 10:30:44 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:30:44 -0700 Subject: Missing Fig 2. from IMSAI front-panel modifications... In-Reply-To: <49EC5C53.1020301@comcast.net> References: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> <49EC5C53.1020301@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49EC9524.3020308@sbcglobal.net> I have two docs which show mods to the IMSAI front panel. One is in the CPA section of the full manual and the other came from the current IMSAI people. I put them up here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/ Get: IMSAI_8080_Manual.pdf and cpa_changes.pdf Hopefully, the info you need is in one. Bob Dan Roganti wrote: > > > Josh Dersch wrote: >> [snip] >> >> Figure 2 is not in the PDF. There is a schematic on page 28 outlining >> the change, but it's unreadable. >> >> Anyone have a copy of Fig 2 they can share? > > > I'm glad you mentioned this, I was looking thru my original manual and > didn't find these pages. Mine only has the one mod starting on pg.29. > I'll take a look around too and try to find this in other pdf's > > =Dan > > [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] > > > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Apr 20 12:21:41 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:21:41 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1F92C570-A49A-4642-87D7-59BE57F5262B@colourfull.com> Hi All, Just put my IBM 5150 w/ 286 accelerator on eBay if anyone is interested in one. Item # 300309315276 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From vp at drexel.edu Mon Apr 20 12:30:00 2009 From: vp at drexel.edu (vp) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:30:00 +0300 Subject: Mass storage for an 9825A Message-ID: <0F1C643D-AD2F-4A97-8500-5E0B8BE5C95A@drexel.edu> Hi, I am trying to get my 9825A to exchange programs, data with the outside world and I am not making any progress. The 9825A has a working tape drive, but as I only have Series 80 stuff here (which use the same tapes, but different formats), this only allows me to save/restore my own stuff. The 9825A also has an HP-IB interface (thats the only interface I've got for it), but I have trouble connecting a floppy drive to it as the mass storage ROM that supports HP-IB drives only works with the 9825T. Bummer! I have the System ROM which allows ASCII programs to be"typed" from an external device, but I would like to be able to have access to the program collections available on floppy images (e.g. the files on the diagnostic tape). So any ideas - suggestions? Thanks **vp www.series80.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 20 13:42:44 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:42:44 -0700 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <25ee01c9c1c7$130b9a70$e30419bb@desktaba> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com> <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> <25ee01c9c1c7$130b9a70$e30419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:39 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> it has a serial port on it. Jim's tcpser program is the perfect thing for >> stuff like this. tcpser is available for both Win32 and Linux systems and >> may work on others. > > Hmmm...I just remembered a very ancient (and funny) fact. > > Some decades ago, I had two 486' and a 386 networked with lantastic and > personal netware (yes...I was something you can call "rich" as a 16-year-old > boy working repairing computers) and had my own BBS. These were the times, > where it was hard as hell to put more than two modems in the same computer > I had a msx with serial port...hmmm... > > It was easy :) Opened a DOORWAY session inside deskview and connected the > MSX to the serial port. I've seen it work the other way around. In the mid-to-late-80's back in Madison, WI there was an 8 line chat system called "Warlord Chat". Warlord had built it and written the software himself. The central system was an IBM PC (ISTR it was a 5150 rather than an XT). It was "networked" to four Atari 400s. I assume there was a serial connection from the PC to each Atari. Each of the Ataris ran two modems. The competing system in town was called "the Bee Line" which had a similar capacity, but I think it was built out of Apple II systems. Of course all the cool people used Warlord Chat. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 20 14:03:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com> <49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090420120033.U57194@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > I think it'd be nice if a classiccmp FTP server was just for "temporary stuff > that doesn't fit anywhere else" such as the "2160 mile moon crash" audio file? > - rather than a permanent home, as permanent > homes probably already exist in most situations. (but does that imply that > it'd be useful for classiccmp to act as some kind of search engine / registry > for niche sites* out on the 'net?) As a redository for on-topic links, it would be superb. But, what would it have been like if Don Maslin were to have had a few GB for storing disk images? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 13:28:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Plugging : VT100 on epay In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 20, 9 04:32:07 pm Message-ID: > > DEC VT100 item : 370190217282 > > It's not HP so it has to go. Didn't HP uy Comapq, adter Compaq had bought DEC? So I guess it _is_ an HP :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 14:14:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:14:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mass storage for an 9825A In-Reply-To: <0F1C643D-AD2F-4A97-8500-5E0B8BE5C95A@drexel.edu> from "vp" at Apr 20, 9 08:30:00 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I am trying to get my 9825A to exchange programs, data with the > outside world > and I am not making any progress. > > The 9825A has a working tape drive, but as I only have Series 80 stuff > here > (which use the same tapes, but different formats), this only allows me > to > save/restore my own stuff. > > The 9825A also has an HP-IB interface (thats the only interface I've got > for it), but I have trouble connecting a floppy drive to it as the mass > storage ROM that supports HP-IB drives only works with the 9825T. > > Bummer! > > I have the System ROM which allows ASCII programs to be"typed" > from an external device, but I would like to be able to have access to > the program collections available on floppy images (e.g. the files on > the diagnostic tape). > > So any ideas - suggestions? AFAIK the only mass storage device that the HP9825 supports 'out of the box' is the internal tape drive. And the only floppy disk ROM that will work on a 9825A is the older one that supports the 9885 8" drive only. Maybe one of the following could be tried : 1) If you can get the older floppy disk ROM and a 9885 + 98032 interface, then maybe you can somehow trander your disk images to 8" disks. But finding that hardware is proably not easy 2) If you can get the ROM and the 98032 interface (the latter are _very_ common in my experience), then maybe you can get some other machine to emulate the 9885. The phyisical interface is quite simple (16 data lines each way, 2 control lines each way, stroe, acknowledge, etc), but AFAIK the command protocol for the 9885 is not documented anywhere. There are some clues in the bits of source listing in the _HP9000/200_ Pascal manuals (on Bitsavers), but it'll take a lot of work to figure it out. 3) If your system programming ROM supports program entry from an HPIB device, you might have some luck using a _Commodore_ disk drive (which is internally file-orientated, unlike HP drives). Philip may have some more hints on doing this. Of course this will be totally incompatible with anything anyone else uses 4) Can you pick the program archives apart on another machine and turn the programs into text? If so, it's then just (!) a matter of figuring out some interface between that machine and the 9825. A 98032 (parallel) or 98036 (RS232) interface would be useful, though. -tony From doc at vaxen.net Mon Apr 20 14:41:11 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:41:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP83000: Wild shot in the dark Message-ID: <49ECCEFA.5000504@vaxen.net> It's good to be back. I had to unsub because I changed jobs and lost my old email address, evidently just as subscriptions went AWOL. Preface: This is for a commercial environment, and work will be more than pleased to pay for anything we can use. The short version is that I need to support the HP/Agilent SmarTest suite on HP-UX 11.0 or later or Linux, controlling an HP83000 test frame. That requires a driver for the PCI optical interface to the 83000 mainframe. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583 (SmarTest will not run if the interface is not detected). As far as I've been able to determine, there's no publicly released driver for any OS but 10.20, nor documentation for the interface card sufficient to write a driver in-house. The only drivers we've found come with the SmarTest suite. The problem is that SmarTest for the HP83k is only known to run in HP-UX 10.20, and 10.20 does not run at all on the PA-8700 CPUs in the j6700. There are patches to enable PA-8700, but they can be applied only to HP-UX 10.26 ("trusted" HPUX) and 10.30 (which HP apparently distributed for a VERY brief time). Our preferred solution would be to run SmarTest on HPUX 11i (or Linux or anything that will run on a machine faster than a C3600). One of our engineers is convinced that there was, probably internal to Agilent, a version of SmarTest that supported HP-UX 11.0 and the HP83K. However, Agilent has sold all that to another company which would basically like to forget that the HP83000 ever existed. Finally, although the HP83000 API is well-documented and there is software to replace SmarTest, this company has a huge investment in SmarTest test programs and would like to avoid porting them. Same goes for moving to HP93000 test frames or later, with the addition expense of the hardware. So. I'm looking for, in order of preference: A Linux version of SmarTest (which exists) *with* kernel drivers for the E2777B interface card (which Verigy denies exists). A 64-bit HP-UX 11/11i driver for that card. Extra points if it's ia64. Someone who has the resources and immediate time to develop one of the above, or to design a "shim" such that SmarTest running on Linux connects to the C3600 with the optical interface but thinks it's talking to the card. A copy of HP-UX 10.30 or 10.26 for s700. Actually, I think 10.26 was available only for s800. Again, we're not looking to bypass or violate any licensing or copyright. We just can't locate even anyone who will discuss this. Doc Shipley From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 20 15:04:31 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:04:31 +0200 Subject: Plugging : VT100 on epay In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Apr20, 9 04:32:07 pm Message-ID: <8BA0525E4D4B431686CCA24C49D48263@xp1800> Not then, then it was DEC and that DEC is not HP. To talk cars, you can comparis DEC with VW and HP with a mix of Citroen and Mercedes (Cit for the ideas Merc for the building :-) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 20 april 2009 20:28 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Plugging : VT100 on epay > > > > > DEC VT100 item : 370190217282 > > > > It's not HP so it has to go. > > Didn't HP uy Comapq, adter Compaq had bought DEC? So I guess > it _is_ an HP :-) > > > -tony > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 20 16:11:06 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:11:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems Message-ID: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, Since noone else seems to have sent this to the list yet, I thought I would send a snippet and a link for those who might be interested in this. Snippet: NEW YORK, April 20: The world's number two software company, Oracle Corporation, today agreed to buy hardware provider Sun Microsystems Inc for $7.4 billion, or $9.50 per share, in cash, pushing the software company into high-end computing system. ?We expect this acquisition to be accretive to Oracles earnings by at least 15 cents on a non-GAAP?basis in the first full year after closing. The business will contribute over $1.5 billion to Oracles non-GAAP?operating profit in the first year, increasing to over $2 billion in the second year,? Oracle president Ms Safra?Catz?said in a statement. Source: http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=12&theme=&usrsess=1&id=251752 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 20 16:17:29 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:17:29 -0400 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> Still waiting for somebody to buy Amiga Inc. for $20 in unrolled change and a warm diet coke. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Burton" To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:11 PM Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems Hi, Since noone else seems to have sent this to the list yet, I thought I would send a snippet and a link for those who might be interested in this. Snippet: NEW YORK, April 20: The world's number two software company, Oracle Corporation, today agreed to buy hardware provider Sun Microsystems Inc for $7.4 billion, or $9.50 per share, in cash, pushing the software company into high-end computing system. ?We expect this acquisition to be accretive to Oracles earnings by at least 15 cents on a non-GAAP basis in the first full year after closing. The business will contribute over $1.5 billion to Oracles non-GAAP operating profit in the first year, increasing to over $2 billion in the second year,? Oracle president Ms Safra Catz said in a statement. Source: http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=12&theme=&usrsess=1&id=251752 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 20 16:18:12 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090420141610.N64116@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: > Since noone else seems to have sent this to the list yet, I thought I > would send a snippet and a link for those who might be interested in > this. > NEW YORK, April 20: The world's number two software company, Oracle > Corporation, today agreed to buy hardware provider Sun Microsystems Inc > for $7.4 billion, or $9.50 per share, in cash, pushing the software > company into high-end computing system. Oh, great. Will it go as well as their Peoplesoft acquisition? From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:25:39 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:25:39 -0400 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> Message-ID: <7d3530220904201425w23cfdb1s5e1989d1480ce104@mail.gmail.com> SOLD I think I'll mount the checkered sphere over my mantelpiece. John On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Still waiting for somebody to buy Amiga Inc. for $20 in unrolled change and > a warm diet coke. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Burton" > > To: > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:11 PM > Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems > > > > Hi, > > Since noone else seems to have sent this to the list yet, I thought I would > send a snippet and a link for those who might be interested in this. > > Snippet: > NEW YORK, April 20: The world's number two software company, Oracle > Corporation, today agreed to buy hardware provider Sun Microsystems Inc > for $7.4 billion, or $9.50 per share, in cash, pushing the software > company into high-end computing system. > > ?We expect this acquisition to be accretive to Oracles earnings by at > least 15 cents on a non-GAAP basis in the first full year after > closing. The business will contribute over $1.5 billion to Oracles > non-GAAP operating profit in the first year, increasing to over $2 > billion in the second year,? Oracle president Ms Safra Catz said in a > statement. > > > Source: > http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=12&theme=&usrsess=1&id=251752 > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From blkline at attglobal.net Mon Apr 20 16:29:12 2009 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:29:12 -0400 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49ECE928.50804@attglobal.net> Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, > > Since noone else seems to have sent this to the list yet, I thought I would send a snippet and a link for those who might be interested in this. I think I'm going to toss my cookies. BK From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 20 16:39:16 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:39:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> Message-ID: <474117.40719.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I would, but then I'd need a little extra to actually do something worthwhile with the company :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 20/4/09, Teo Zenios wrote: From: Teo Zenios Subject: Re: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 10:17 PM Still waiting for somebody to buy Amiga Inc. for $20 in unrolled change and a warm diet coke. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Burton" To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:11 PM Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems Hi, Since noone else seems to have sent this to the list yet, I thought I would send a snippet and a link for those who might be interested in this. Snippet: NEW YORK, April 20: The world's number two software company, Oracle Corporation, today agreed to buy hardware provider Sun Microsystems Inc for $7.4 billion, or $9.50 per share, in cash, pushing the software company into high-end computing system. ?We expect this acquisition to be accretive to Oracles earnings by at least 15 cents on a non-GAAP basis in the first full year after closing. The business will contribute over $1.5 billion to Oracles non-GAAP operating profit in the first year, increasing to over $2 billion in the second year,? Oracle president Ms Safra Catz said in a statement. Source: http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=12&theme=&usrsess=1&id=251752 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:43:47 2009 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (C.H.) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:43:47 +0200 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> Message-ID: <310f50ab0904201443q12d17bc9gc3ed8b01a30b1be5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/4/20 Teo Zenios : > Still waiting for somebody to buy Amiga Inc. for $20 in unrolled change and > a warm diet coke. > epic From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:46:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:46:49 -0400 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <474117.40719.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> <474117.40719.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I would, but then I'd need a little extra to actually do something worthwhile with the company :) Mentos? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:46:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:46:49 -0400 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <474117.40719.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> <474117.40719.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I would, but then I'd need a little extra to actually do something worthwhile with the company :) Mentos? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 20 17:09:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <7d3530220904201425w23cfdb1s5e1989d1480ce104@mail.gmail.com> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> <7d3530220904201425w23cfdb1s5e1989d1480ce104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090420150821.G64116@shell.lmi.net> > > Still waiting for somebody to buy Amiga Inc. for $20 in unrolled change and > > a warm diet coke. On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, John Floren wrote: > SOLD > I think I'll mount the checkered sphere over my mantelpiece. WAITAMINIT! Was there a B.I.N.? or did you snipe it? I would have bid almost $100 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 20 17:12:03 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:12:03 -0300 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com><056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com><25ee01c9c1c7$130b9a70$e30419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <293101c9c205$45076f70$e30419bb@desktaba> > Warlord had built it and written the software himself. The central > system was an IBM PC (ISTR it was a 5150 rather than an XT). It was > "networked" to four Atari 400s. I assume there was a serial > connection from the PC to each Atari. Each of the Ataris ran two > modems. What I find most disturbing is that it was **EASY** to put 4 or even 8 modems in each ISA box, and ***EASY*** to program for them. Now I have the knowledge, but it was pretty hermetic on the past. We live in the age of info, and now we have the world at our hands... I'm lucky, I live in one of the best of all ages :o) From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 20 17:24:11 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:24:11 -0400 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com><056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST><49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com><25ee01c9c1c7$130b9a70$e30419bb@desktaba> <293101c9c205$45076f70$e30419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <1B262E92D85C4A8F8D6D407482CD7165@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: Re: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) >> Warlord had built it and written the software himself. The central >> system was an IBM PC (ISTR it was a 5150 rather than an XT). It was >> "networked" to four Atari 400s. I assume there was a serial >> connection from the PC to each Atari. Each of the Ataris ran two >> modems. > > What I find most disturbing is that it was **EASY** to put 4 or even 8 > modems in each ISA box, and ***EASY*** to program for them. Now I have the > knowledge, but it was pretty hermetic on the past. We live in the age of > info, and now we have the world at our hands... > > I'm lucky, I live in one of the best of all ages :o) > Yea, the age of script kiddies who know everything there is to know from Google. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 20 17:28:32 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:28:32 -0700 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> Message-ID: <49ECF710.7000907@bitsavers.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > The world's number two software company, Oracle > Corporation, today agreed to buy hardware provider Sun Microsystems Inc sigh.. so much for negotiating a hobbyist license for 68K Suns. At least we'll have Apollo, 98x6, and 9000/200 & 300 (crossing his fingers..) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 20 17:37:32 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:37:32 -0300 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com><056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST><49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com><25ee01c9c1c7$130b9a70$e30419bb@desktaba><293101c9c205$45076f70$e30419bb@desktaba> <1B262E92D85C4A8F8D6D407482CD7165@game> Message-ID: <297b01c9c208$a268e4c0$e30419bb@desktaba> > Yea, the age of script kiddies who know everything there is to know from > Google. What is the problem? Let them live their small lives, there is a world before them :) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 20 19:09:09 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:09:09 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs Message-ID: Some of the smoke came out of my Osborne 1 this weekend. It doesn't appear to have been fatal, as it was still functioning when I cut the power. I'm giving the CRT some time to fully discharge before I open it up, probably next weekend. It was probably a failing capacitor, although it didn't explode, it merely got really warm over a period of hours. But since there are some similar machines that I haven't recently used, this question came to mind. I've used the variac technique to reform capacitors, but thus far haven't done this on a machine that contains a CRT because I don't know what the reduced voltage is going to do to the CRT. The next machine to power up on my list is a Compucolor II. Dare I power it at 15 volts for a few days before starting the slow ramp up to 115? Or do I need to go in and detach the CRT circuitry before I try anything like that.? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:47:22 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:47:22 -0500 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <20090420150821.G64116@shell.lmi.net> References: <469333.46190.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <9C15DB6F299D4553931F5E60070A3FE5@game> <7d3530220904201425w23cfdb1s5e1989d1480ce104@mail.gmail.com> <20090420150821.G64116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:09:31 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems > > > > Still waiting for somebody to buy Amiga Inc. for $20 in unrolled change and > > > a warm diet coke. > > On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, John Floren wrote: > > SOLD > > I think I'll mount the checkered sphere over my mantelpiece. > > WAITAMINIT! > Was there a B.I.N.? > or did you snipe it? > > I would have bid almost $100 > > > The original Sun draft is on bitsavers, a good read! http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/stanford/sun/The_SUN_Workstation_Draft_Mar80.pdf _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 From shumaker at att.net Mon Apr 20 19:48:29 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:48:29 -0400 Subject: Pertec tape drive in CA In-Reply-To: References: <1e1fc3e90902232350t69b17674vefa1644257594980@mail.gmail.com> <49A55215.6060207@ubanproductions.com> <49ABF4FD.5010602@garlic.com> Message-ID: <49ED17DD.4010300@att.net> probably over the top for shipping but if someone is *really* looking... The Ventura CA Craigslist has this listing posted today - 4-20. item 1131295322 Vintage Pertec Data Tape Drive 7" x 1/2" Tape In Rack Mount Cabinet - $100 (Oxnard -5 Points) s shumaker From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 20 20:00:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:00:57 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49ECB859.18429.306F07EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2009 at 17:09, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I've used the variac technique to reform capacitors, but thus far > haven't done this on a machine that contains a CRT because I don't > know what the reduced voltage is going to do to the CRT. The next > machine to power up on my list is a Compucolor II. Dare I power it at > 15 volts for a few days before starting the slow ramp up to 115? Or > do I need to go in and detach the CRT circuitry before I try anything > like that.? While it may do some good to reform oil capacitors, has anyone had any solid information indicating that a slow ramp-up on more-or-less modern electrolytics does much good? Do marginal caps treated this way continue to give reliable service, or is one just putting off the inevitable? I'm more of the "duck and plug" mindset myself. Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 20 20:03:52 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:03:52 -0500 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> You can't "variac" any device that uses a switchmode power supply. You'll need to go through and test each cap in the machine, taken apart. Proper reforming (assuming any of the caps even need reforming) by variac alone is extremely tedious to do.. and probably not even possible especially if you're attempting to variac an entire machine at once. A variac is far better employed to just give your devices a "soft start." Quickly turn the voltage from 0 to 110V, then slower to its normal voltage. This is better than an instant-on, at least. Electrolytic forming can be maintained by occasionally applying working voltage to the cap. How often it's needed depends on capacitor manufacturer and particular production run (due to varying rates of oxide breakdown). But for all practical purposes, if a device is powered up every 1-3 ("several") years for 30-60 minutes, the capacitors should not fail from lack of forming. They'll still fail from other reasons -- like drying out. Capacitors instead of exploding more often just slowly become less effective. Re hot caps: a cap that gets hot should be replaced. Excessive leakage and/or too high an ESR is causing too much (DC or AC, respectively) power to be dissipated in the capacitor. Eric J Korpela wrote: > Some of the smoke came out of my Osborne 1 this weekend. It doesn't > appear to have been fatal, as it was still functioning when I cut the > power. I'm giving the CRT some time to fully discharge before I open > it up, probably next weekend. It was probably a failing capacitor, > although it didn't explode, it merely got really warm over a period of > hours. But since there are some similar machines that I haven't > recently used, this question came to mind. > > I've used the variac technique to reform capacitors, but thus far > haven't done this on a machine that contains a CRT because I don't > know what the reduced voltage is going to do to the CRT. The next > machine to power up on my list is a Compucolor II. Dare I power it at > 15 volts for a few days before starting the slow ramp up to 115? Or > do I need to go in and detach the CRT circuitry before I try anything > like that.? > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 20 20:19:16 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:19:16 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49ECB859.18429.306F07EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49ECB859.18429.306F07EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While it may do some good to reform oil capacitors, has anyone had > any solid information indicating that a slow ramp-up on more-or-less > modern electrolytics does much good? I've wondered this myself. I've also wondered what a suitable definition of modern is. I've had capacitors explode on sudden power application. I've never had one explode on a slow ramp with a variac, but I've had them warm up. I've also seen DC current decrease over the course of several hours when applying low DC voltages to boards, but I've never been able to confirm the same with a variac. > I'm more of the "duck and plug" mindset myself. Again, with a CRT in the mix, I worry about the damage an exploding capacitor can do. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 20 20:29:53 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:29:53 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> References: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:03 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > You can't "variac" any device that uses a switchmode power supply. ?You'll > need to go through and test each cap in the machine, taken apart. I'm aware of that. Unless I've forgotten something, no switching supply is involved in these machines. Unless the supply that provides HV to the CRT is a switcher. That's one of the reasons I ask. I'm not too familiar with the guts of a CRT. > Proper reforming (assuming any of the caps even need reforming) by variac > alone is extremely tedious to do.. and probably not even possible especially > if you're attempting to variac an entire machine at once. Yes, it takes weeks to get to operating voltage. I'm not sure it really counts as tedious, when most of what is involved is tweaking a knob daily and checking for heat or smoke. Voltage and/or current monitors would be nice, but who's got a working chart recorder these days? I suppose I could turn an old laptop into one. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 20 20:43:19 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:43:19 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49ED24B7.4020209@bitsavers.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Yes, it takes weeks to get to operating voltage. I'm not sure it > really counts as tedious, when most of what is involved is tweaking a > knob daily and checking for heat or smoke. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/wrec/ From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 20 20:45:00 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: <49ECB859.18429.306F07EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49ED251C.5050108@cimmeri.com> > Again, with a CRT in the mix, I worry about the damage an exploding > capacitor can do. > Eric That's not the concern you need to be having. The concern is that turning on a CRT too slowly is going to burn out its power supply and possibly other B+ components... especially if it uses an SMPS. If you're not going to do the work of properly testing/replacing the caps prior to power on, then just use the routine I use when being lazy or otherwise in a hurry: - with a variac set to 20V, and your device on, turn the variac on and quickly turn it from 20V to 90V. This is fast enough to prevent a CRT PSU blowout due to excessive current from low voltage... and gives you a soft start in case of marginal components. - Work your way from 90 to whatever in 5V increments every 15 minutes... turning slowly. That's the about the best you can do with a variac alone.. on a CRT. The chief drawback to the Variac is that you're not in charge of the current... only the voltage. Current control AND voltage control is what you need for caps reforming... AGAIN -- if there's any benefit to be had from caps reforming... which is doubtful. Caps the smaller they are the more just plain dried out they are! No amount of reforming will change that. jS From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 20 21:41:41 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:41:41 -0500 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49ED3265.2000602@cimmeri.com> > I'm aware of that. Unless I've forgotten something, no switching > supply is involved in these machines. Unless the supply that provides > HV to the CRT is a switcher. That's one of the reasons I ask. I'm > not too familiar with the guts of a CRT. > The HV portion is really a Tesla coil using the horizontal oscillator for frequency input... and as far as I know would not be hurt by the lower voltage. Rather, it's the main power supply that might be. > Yes, it takes weeks to get to operating voltage. I'm not sure it > really counts as tedious, when most of what is involved is tweaking a > knob daily and checking for heat or smoke. Voltage and/or current > monitors would be nice, but who's got a working chart recorder these > days? I suppose I could turn an old laptop into one. > Well, that's excessive. It only takes, at most, a few hours to reform the kinds of caps we're bound to encounter in these machines... as one guy pointed out here a few weeks back.. this isn't vintage audio... and without current limiting, it's an awfully crude method because IF reformation is needed in any particular cap, and IF you raise the voltage too fast anywhere along the way, excessive current is going to give you pinholes in your cap's foil. I want to stress again that if machines are powered on every several years for a few hours, your oxide layer isn't going to be your main concern... because that is one area where modern caps are superior.... Rather, your main concern is going to be dried out caps resulting from excessive heat or just age. Caps aging is a multivariable problem... and you really have to assess your particular piece of equipment for all those variables before proceeding on any kind of cap maintenance, testing, or replacement protocol. jS > Eric > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 20 22:10:48 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:10:48 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d401c9c22e$c5014a10$c900a8c0@JWEST> Jules wrote.... > I think it'd be nice if a classiccmp FTP server was just for "temporary > stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else" - rather than a permanent home, as > permanent homes probably already exist in most situations. (but does that > imply that it'd be useful for classiccmp to act as some kind of search > engine / registry for niche sites* out on the 'net?) > > * some of which would probably still be classiccmp-hosted, I suppose. Thanks Jules, good insight. In retrospect, the classiccmp server already offers boatloads of ftp space where new entries would more than likely be stored by the respective site maintainers. I think it would be best for the list to just offer a "90 day automatic delete" ftp site, specifically to address the case where someone posts a schematic, etc. to the list given that the list doesn't allow it (so that people aren't forced to dload something they have no interest in). That way every list member would be able to post a download address for something mentioned in a post. If one of the many other sites out there (or on the classiccmp server) want to archive that item before it's deleted, so much the better. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 20 22:25:46 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:25:46 -0600 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:59:25 -0500. <49EC0F3D.6040709@jbrain.com> Message-ID: In article <49EC0F3D.6040709 at jbrain.com>, Jim Brain writes: > It's a valid point, but how do we ensure that the information is not > subject to FTP site "entropy"? If you rent a shell account on XMission, you get FTP access for free. Standard user quota is now 5 GB, IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 20 23:37:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:37:08 -0400 Subject: subscriptions, was Re: HP83000: Wild shot in the dark In-Reply-To: <49ECCEFA.5000504@vaxen.net> References: <49ECCEFA.5000504@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Apr 20, 2009, at 3:41 PM, Doc wrote: > It's good to be back. I had to unsub because I changed jobs and > lost my old email address, evidently just as subscriptions went AWOL. The same thing happened to me. I unsubscribed from cctech and attempted to subscribe to cctalk. I'm finally back too. :) My understanding is that cctalk is a superset of cctech. (is that correct?) I seemed to miss about half of every thread, which is why I wanted to switch. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 20 23:40:51 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:40:51 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs References: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49ED4E51.D840905D@cs.ubc.ca> While we're giving electrolytic caps another go-round, here's another angle on (modern) electrolytic caps: I was repairing an HP 9815 (desktop programmable calc) a month ago. While tracing it out to make the schematic, I noticed that a 680 uF, 25V electrolytic cap for the +15V supply filter had been installed backwards (reversed polarity). This was not a replacement or earlier repair, it came out of the factory this way in 1975 (even HP screws up on occasion). Granted that it's on the output of the regulator so it's not as critical as if it were the main smoothing cap right after the rectifiers, but it was nonetheless interesting that the calculator had been running just fine with it this way since inception (it had nothing to do with the problem I was looking for). I made note of it in a repair log for the unit, but left it as is. Someday it night be interesting to take it out to measure it's characteristics. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 21 00:55:22 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8250 UART Message-ID: Does anyone here want an 8250 UART? Free for shipping. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrise at pobox.com Mon Apr 20 12:26:13 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:26:13 -0500 Subject: Using a 3.5" 720k disk... In-Reply-To: <49EB4081.7409.2AB2F2A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EB77EC.8010507@philpem.me.uk> <49EB4081.7409.2AB2F2A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090420172613.GI16350@n0jcf.net> I made no attempt to solve this problem for 5.25" media. I went straight to the 3.5" domain simply because the drives are still readily available and I have a large stock of the media. I have tested my solution only with the Heath H-88-1/H-17 hard sector controller too... so it's possible that that controller is less sensitive to any speed variation the drive may be introducing. Soon, I'll be trying a 16-hole variation with a very old Micropolis controller (for the 1015-II drives) and we'll see if the reliability is repeatable. I did consider leaving the drive selected all the time, with the motor running and then continuously watching the speed and using the previous rev to time the next... but in the end, it seemed I didn't need that complexity and I am able to let the drive spin down when MOTOR ON goes false and it still seems to work. In any case, I make no claim of a universal solution here... just something that works for the H89 and eliminates a dependancy on the 10-hole 5.25" media. I've got two 3.5" drives in half-height 5.25" adapters sitting in the same opening as the one full-height 5.25" drive used to occupy and it looks and works pretty good. Chris On Sunday (04/19/2009 at 03:17PM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Apr 2009 at 20:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > - If you add something to sync to the index marks and generate a > > hard-sector "emulation" index pattern from that, you can't put a HS > > disc in that drive > > Not so--it'd work the same way my PIC solution does--while it's > sampling the drive speed (and not passing index pulses) it's looking > for sector holes. If it finds them, it hangs back and allows index > pulses to flow through. If it sees an index pulse every 166/200 msec > or so, it knows to start generating sector pulses on the next rev. > > > What about just detecting the speed of the input index pulse? If > > they're turning up faster than, say, once every quarter-second, then > > bypass the index-pulse multiplier. Basically have a multiplexer that > > allows the output to be sourced from /Index_In, or /Index_Generated. > > Exactly what my PIC code does. But the base issue is really the ISV > characteristics of the drive's speed control. Direct-drive 3.5" > drives are probably much better than old 5.25" belt-drive drives. I > suspect that consistent speed control issues may have originally > been the reason for NEC specifying 8x512 format for a "360K" > diskette. > > --Chuck > -- Chris Elmquist From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Apr 21 02:55:49 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:55:49 -0700 Subject: Missing Fig 2. from IMSAI front-panel modifications... In-Reply-To: <49EC9524.3020308@sbcglobal.net> References: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> <49EC5C53.1020301@comcast.net> <49EC9524.3020308@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49ED7C05.4030703@mail.msu.edu> Heh, the IMSAI_8080_Manual.pdf is still missing Fig 2. Maybe it never existed in the first place :). cpa_changes.pdf seems to be a compendium of the text part of the original errata lists, but lacks any diagrams whatsoever. (It still seems to reference the diagrams, though :)). Thanks, Josh Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have two docs which show mods to the IMSAI front panel. One is in > the CPA section of the full manual > and the other came from the current IMSAI people. I put them up here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/ > > Get: IMSAI_8080_Manual.pdf and > cpa_changes.pdf > > Hopefully, the info you need is in one. > > Bob > > Dan Roganti wrote: >> >> >> Josh Dersch wrote: >>> [snip] >>> >>> Figure 2 is not in the PDF. There is a schematic on page 28 >>> outlining the change, but it's unreadable. >>> >>> Anyone have a copy of Fig 2 they can share? >> >> >> I'm glad you mentioned this, I was looking thru my original manual >> and didn't find these pages. Mine only has the one mod starting on >> pg.29. I'll take a look around too and try to find this in other pdf's >> >> =Dan >> >> [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] >> >> >> > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 21 03:37:51 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:37:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Some of the smoke came out of my Osborne 1 this weekend. It doesn't > appear to have been fatal, as it was still functioning when I cut the > power. I'm giving the CRT some time to fully discharge before I open > it up, probably next weekend. It was probably a failing capacitor, > although it didn't explode, it merely got really warm over a period of > hours. But since there are some similar machines that I haven't > recently used, this question came to mind. Oh my, this has nothing to do with either the CRT or any electrolytic cap... I've had the same effect on an Osborne 1, and it was simply the filter capacitor in the power supply that let its magic white smoke out. The machine was still running though. Just replace that cap and finito... Christian From leaknoil at comcast.net Tue Apr 21 02:18:57 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (Pete) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:18:57 -0700 Subject: Looking for Monroe 8820 software and docs Message-ID: <49ED7361.2020508@comcast.net> I probably posted this before but, its been awhile so, here I go again. I have a Litton Monroe OC-8820 I would really like to play with. Only problem is no OS. It is an early 80's cp/m box. If anyone has access to a copy of the boot disks I would really love a copy. A few Monroe applications would make my day. There was a member of this list, Warren Wolfe (wizard at voyager.net) , that posted about having one of these around 2007. That email just bounces now and I can't find any trace of him since then. If anyone has a new email address for Warren hopefully he can help me. From Peter.Coghlan at EUROKOM.IE Tue Apr 21 04:35:14 2009 From: Peter.Coghlan at EUROKOM.IE (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:35:14 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:53:14 -0800" <4975D74A.7080604@garlic.com> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> <4974F2C2.646D5CBC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <01N81PBGILL2NSI41M@vms.eurokom.ie> Brent Hilpert ????????: > > If chemical treatment or polishing is inadequate, Scotchbrite pads with water > might be a next step. They can be surprisingly abrasive on soft metals (they > can remove thin plating or anodising), so one wants to be gentle at first, but > they are less aggressive than steel wool or wire-brushing. I haven't heard of > any issues with them leaving embedded particles, as has been mentioned as a > problem with steel wool. > There are several different grades of Scotch Brite. The baby blue grade, which is the gentlest, might be preferable to the green, red, gray or other grades. That's all I remember of the grades but if you find a box of the stuff, the grades should be described on it. Perhaps the info is also on the 3M website somewhere? == jd When the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the plane, the plane will fly. -- Donald Douglas -- jd From chertec at pacific.net.sg Tue Apr 21 03:37:37 2009 From: chertec at pacific.net.sg (Jimmy Lim) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:37:37 +0800 Subject: TDX Format Tapes? Message-ID: <200904210837.n3L8bft6073339@keith.ezwind.net> Hi Eric, Good day to you ! I found you through internet google under TDX FORMAT TAPES. These tapes are use for Production Test Program using Sentry Tester. Can I help you? What are going to do with these Tapes? I maybe able to help you. We are specialized in providing service to our Customers to repair/service Sentry Testers and as well as software development. Regards, Jimmy Lim CHERTEC SEMICONDUCTOR SERVICES Tel: +65-67491633 Fax: +65-67478429 21 Apr.2009 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 08:00:44 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <229736.12112.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Some of the smoke came out of my Osborne 1 this weekend. It > doesn't > appear to have been fatal, as it was still functioning when > I cut the > power. I'm giving the CRT some time to fully discharge > before I open > it up, probably next weekend. It was probably a failing > capacitor, > although it didn't explode, it merely got really warm > over a period of > hours. But since there are some similar machines that I > haven't > recently used, this question came to mind. Does the Osborne have a tantalum capacitor in it? Those tend to blow without warning, for no good reason. When they go, you get lots of magic smoke and burning - but your device tends to stay working. Filter caps can go with smoke too - and depending on the deivce, it might keep going, or fail. I think people get really way over-concerned about electrolytics. These devices are old... but not that old. Slow powerup would be a good idea for seriously old stuff (pre-50's, mainly), primarily just to check for shorts. I use a series light bulb for that. But if the cap is bad enough that it's going to exlplode on powerup, it isn't going to reform to a useable state. This is one of those often discussed "holy war" topics, and comes up once a year or so. My mindset has always been to cross my fingers and plug it in, especially for common, documented things like an Osborne or a TRS-80. If a capacitor blows up, then you know that it's bad, and should be replaced - and it's marked clearly with a smoking hole. For rarer things, I try to go in stages, testing the power supply first with a dummy load to ensure that it's good before going on. But the fact of the matter is, when you're working with old stuff, you are going to be replacing a fair number of electrolytic capacitors. They just don't last. And the typical failure mode has them simply operating poorly - not exploding. A tradition at VCF East is the releasing of the magic smoke (Andy is usually on top of this one), and while spactacular, all affected devices have since been repaired. (Canon Cat, Apple IIe, Kaypro, Apple ProFile...) -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 21 08:53:07 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:53:07 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49ED4E51.D840905D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49ED1B78.6080100@cimmeri.com> <49ED4E51.D840905D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:40:51 -0700 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: Re: Reforming caps and CRTs > > While we're giving electrolytic caps another go-round, here's another angle on > (modern) electrolytic caps: > > I was repairing an HP 9815 (desktop programmable calc) a month ago. While > tracing it out to make the schematic, I noticed that a 680 uF, 25V electrolytic > cap for the +15V supply filter had been installed backwards (reversed > polarity). ---snip--- The cap is most likely completely dry inside. It would have cooked completely by now. It is possible to reform a cap backwards but that requires a slow current for a long time. Of course, the capacitance would be really small because the case has a small surface area compared to the positive terminal. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:09:12 2009 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:09:12 -0600 Subject: A few free items In-Reply-To: <49DA82C0.3020400@pacbell.net> References: <49DA82C0.3020400@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Wow. Thanks for all the details. I could find nothing at all about it despite my best Googling, and very little even about Palantir. It's always nice to learn something new about my favorite hobby. Mike On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Mike Maginnis wrote: >> >> A few items to give away. >> >> I came across a box of stuff as I was cleaning out the server room. >> Might be of interest to someone, might not. ?I'd prefer local pickup >> (Denver, CO area), but could be persuaded to ship if you cover S/H. >> > ... >> >> * Unknown board from "The Palantir Corporation" (c) 1988 - has a >> Motorola 68020. ?16-bit ISA. ?Maybe a co-processor board? > > I designed that card, and one and a half of the three ASICs (at LSI logic) > that are on it. ?I'm surprised it says Plantir; I thought we were called > Calera Recognition Systems by then. > > The card was for OCR; $2000 new. ?When the classiccmp archives are back > online, you can search it and there is a long message or two where I > describe how we configured these cards, even multiple cards in one system, > without having any jumpers. ?It is child's play on PCI, but ISA bus had no > mechanism to make it easy. > > I spent a lot more time debugging flaky boards than I spent designing it. > ?It wasn't that the design was bad, but we made about 300 boards/month and > there is always some fallout. ?At $2000/pop, it was worth my time (at > $35K/yr) to the company to sit and debug them. > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:10:58 2009 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:10:58 -0600 Subject: A few free items In-Reply-To: <35546.70584.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <35546.70584.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Sorry, I haven't had time to make it to the post office yet with your card, what with all the snow this weekend. I will try to get it out to you this week. Mike On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Chris M wrote: > Hi Mike, > ?Interested in the 68020 ISA card if it's still available. Thanks. > > --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Mike Maginnis wrote: > > From: Mike Maginnis > Subject: A few free items > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 5:02 PM > > A few items to give away. > > I came across a box of stuff as I was cleaning out the server room. > Might be of interest to someone, might not.? I'd prefer local pickup > (Denver, CO area), but could be persuaded to ship if you cover S/H. > > > * CHIPS Enhanced Graphics Card Rev 1.0 > > * Headland Technology 16-bit ISA VGA video card VGA-16 650-0122 (c) 1988 > > * GPIB IEEE-488 board, unknown manuf. 8-bit ISA.? "6323706 REV A > 667523" printed on PCB, next to a logo like a palm tree with a small > "2" next to it. > > * Adaptec AHA-1542B 16-bit ISA SCSI card > > * Unknown board from "The Palantir Corporation" (c) 1988 - has a > Motorola 68020.? 16-bit ISA.? Maybe a co-processor board? > > * 5 9-track tapes,3M and Memorex. One is labeled "MultiNet 3.2 Rev A", > another "MultiNet 3.2, Rev B".? Others are hand-labeled.? No idea > what's actually on them.? They probably haven't been used since the > early 90's. > > All of these items are untested and provided AS IS.? Anything > unclaimed goes to the recycle bin. > > I'll put some images up tonight when I get home from work, if anyone's > interested. > > - Mike > > > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 21 12:21:24 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:21:24 -0700 Subject: Oxidation References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> <4974F2C2.646D5CBC@cs.ubc.ca> <01N81PBGILL2NSI41M@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <49EE0094.57DD7058@cs.ubc.ca> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > Brent Hilpert ?*?????*?????**?**?*??*?: > > > > If chemical treatment or polishing is inadequate, Scotchbrite pads with water > > might be a next step. They can be surprisingly abrasive on soft metals (they > > can remove thin plating or anodising), so one wants to be gentle at first, but > > they are less aggressive than steel wool or wire-brushing. I haven't heard of > > any issues with them leaving embedded particles, as has been mentioned as a > > problem with steel wool. > > There are several different grades of Scotch Brite. The baby blue > grade, which is the gentlest, might be preferable to the green, red, > gray or other grades. That's all I remember of the grades but if you > find a box of the stuff, the grades should be described on it. Perhaps > the info is also on the 3M website somewhere? ( ? .. that thread was from months ago) Yes, green is what I generally work with, gray is too coarse for the task. I haven't used the red or blue, although it would be nice to try the blue sometime, being finer. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 13:21:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:21:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Apr 20, 9 05:09:09 pm Message-ID: > > Some of the smoke came out of my Osborne 1 this weekend. It doesn't > appear to have been fatal, as it was still functioning when I cut the > power. I'm giving the CRT some time to fully discharge before I open > it up, probably next weekend. It was probably a failing capacitor, I don't know why people are so worried about the residual charge on a CRT. Unless you're working on the CRT or flyback transformer, there's no way you're going to come into contact with it. And I am not sure what good waiting a week does. If there's a bleeder resistor, it'll discharge in minutes. Similarly on a _working_ device, the beam current will often discharge the CRT at power-down (I find it rare to find much residual voltage on a CRT final anode connector). If neitehr of these is the case, then a week may well not be long enough. > although it didn't explode, it merely got really warm over a period of > hours. But since there are some similar machines that I haven't > recently used, this question came to mind. > > I've used the variac technique to reform capacitors, but thus far > haven't done this on a machine that contains a CRT because I don't > know what the reduced voltage is going to do to the CRT. The next The CRT is the least of your worries. I am not sure what good applying a Variac to the mains input of a machine using regulated supplies actually does. It's noy going to do much reforming of capacitors deep in the circuitry. And if the PSU is a switcher (and a lot are), it can do damage (switchers are constant _power_ loads to a very good approximation, they draw more current at lower voltage). if you want to reform the capacitors, IMHO you need to remove them and run them up on a current-limited DC supply. Even then I am not sure what the point is. I've found capacitors, particularly tantalum bead types, just fail at random. I don;t think reforming them would help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 13:12:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:12:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Plugging : VT100 on epay In-Reply-To: <8BA0525E4D4B431686CCA24C49D48263@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 20, 9 10:04:31 pm Message-ID: > > Not then, then it was DEC and that DEC is not HP. My original comment was made tongue-in-cheek, of course. > To talk cars, you can comparis DEC with VW and HP with a mix of Citroen and > Mercedes (Cit for the ideas Merc for the building :-) > I think that's a littke unfair. HP had some clever designs and made them very well. DEC had some equally clever designs, and made them well. And both made some darn poor products (to be honest, I don't think the HP120 CP/M machine is a particularly good design!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 14:26:46 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:26:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <229736.12112.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 21, 9 06:00:44 am Message-ID: > > Does the Osborne have a tantalum capacitor in it? Those tend to blow > without warning, for no good reason. When they go, you get lots of magic And no amount of testing/reforming will solve that. They test find and one day they emit clouds of foul-smelling smoke and glow red. Just replace them when it happens/ > smoke and burning - but your device tends to stay working. Filter caps > can go with smoke too - and depending on the deivce, it might keep going, > or fail. I've had the metalised paper capacitors in mains filters fail without warning. When one goes, I normally replaec all of them, but other than that I can see no way of telling when they're about to fail > > I think people get really way over-concerned about electrolytics. I owuld agree. I've had capacitors fail, of course. But it's not a common failure in any of the machines I work on (which are, I admit, made after 1970, but covers just about everything after that date). > These devices are old... but not that old. Slow powerup would be a good > idea for seriously old stuff (pre-50's, mainly), primarily just to check > for shorts. I use a series light bulb for that. But if the cap is bad I suesw a series light bulb when repairing SMPSUs too, just to limit the current if something goes seriously wrong. And I used one on a transformer/rectifier/smoothing capactor PSU in my HP9826. It arrived with the mains fuse blown, I could find nothing wrong (the regulator board worked fine off a bench supply -- in fact I could run the entire machine that way, the smoothing capacitor was fine, the rectifier diodes were fine, the trnasformer 'Meggered' OK, and so on). I don't find a Variac to be a particularly useful piece of kit for working on classic computers > enough that it's going to exlplode on powerup, it isn't going to reform > to a useable state. > > This is one of those often discussed "holy war" topics, and comes up > once a year or so. My mindset has always been to cross my fingers and > plug it in, especially for common, documented things like an Osborne or > a TRS-80. If a capacitor blows up, then you know that it's bad, and > should be replaced - and it's marked clearly with a smoking hole. For > rarer things, I try to go in stages, testing the power supply first with > a dummy load to ensure that it's good before going on. I always run the PSU on a dummy load if I possibly can. Just in case something has come lose in shipping, etc. And I run the supply on a dummy load after working on the machine (particularly if I've been working on the PSU area). We all make mistakes, and the time it takes to do this is a lot less than the time it takes to replace 100 ICs or more! I will also add that I do a visual inspection, including electrolytic capacitors. For example, when looking over this HP120 I've been working on, I noticed one of the mains smoothing capacitors on the SMPSU board was bulging on top. It worked fine, it seemed to test fine, but I replaced the pair for my peace of mind. Thing is, they are mounted next to the CRT neck, and while they have that weakened area on top to let them vent without exploding, I'd rather they didn't do that next to a CRT. So I changed them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 14:04:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:04:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49ED4E51.D840905D@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 20, 9 09:40:51 pm Message-ID: > > While we're giving electrolytic caps another go-round, here's another angle on > (modern) electrolytic caps: > > I was repairing an HP 9815 (desktop programmable calc) a month ago. While > tracing it out to make the schematic, I noticed that a 680 uF, 25V electrolytic I am wondering why you traced out the schematic of a 9815, when you can download both the official service manual (boardswapper guide) and unofficial full schematics (covering both main versions of the CPU board) from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ Anyway... the 9815 is a somewhat odd machine. It's the only HP desktop computer before about 1980 that used a standard CPU. Other machines either used a bit-serial processor built from TTL or HP custom chips/hybrid modules. But the 9815 uses a 6800. The memory map (and thus the address decoding circuitry) is a bit strange, mainly because they wanted to put the 6821 PIA at location 0 (so they could use zero-page addressing to access it), they wanted RAM in the rest of page 0, etc. The PSU is, of course, a switching regulator run from a mains-frequency step-down transformer. Strangely there's no crowbar circuit. If that chopper transistor shorts, the 5V line leaps to about 30V with fatal effects on all the chips. I don't know why HP cut corners in this way. Can you tell I've worked on these before... > cap for the +15V supply filter had been installed backwards (reversed > polarity). This was not a replacement or earlier repair, it came out of the > factory this way in 1975 (even HP screws up on occasion). I've seen this too. In fact I've seen it twice rcently. The most recent case was in that Hp120 I've been working on. The decouping capacitor for the +12V line on one of the boards (connected from +12V to ground) was fitted backwards. And the PCB was laid out backwards. HP, you see, put a square pad for the 'indicated' lead of a component -- pin 1 of a connector or IC, the +ve end of an electrolytic capacitor, the cathode (banded end) of a diode, the emitter of a transistor, etc. And in this case, the square pad was ground. Of course I replaced the capacitor (10uF). I didn't keep the old one, I have no idea if it had reformed backwards (i.e. with the oxide film on the wrong plate), but I susepct it wasn't going to meet it's spec. > Granted that it's on the output of the regulator so it's not as critical as if > it were the main smoothing cap right after the rectifiers, but it was > nonetheless interesting that the calculator had been running just fine with it > this way since inception (it had nothing to do with the problem I was looking for). What was the fault? > > I made note of it in a repair log for the unit, but left it as is. Someday it > night be interesting to take it out to measure it's characteristics. > Alas I didn't keep the one I replaced in the HP120, so I can't check that. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Apr 21 15:28:14 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:28:14 +0100 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1240345694.2526.75.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:04 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > The PSU is, of course, a switching regulator run from a mains-frequency > step-down transformer. Strangely there's no crowbar circuit. If that > chopper transistor shorts, the 5V line leaps to about 30V with fatal > effects on all the chips. I don't know why HP cut corners in this way. Shades of the Sony sets of the late 70s to mid 80s with the GCS power supplies (Gate Controlled Switch, or Ghastly Catastrophic Semiconductor, depending on who you ask). Oh, except that clapped full-wave rectified mains across all the following regulators when (not if) it failed dead short. Which promptly failed dead short too, with hilarious consequences. These would come in with the customer saying "It went bang and then the picture and sound went off. It's probably just a fuse, it won't be too expensive will it?" - and all the semiconductors inside are now black sand... Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 21 16:34:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:34:05 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: , <49ED4E51.D840905D@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <49EDD95D.5378.34D86A6A@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2009 at 6:53, dwight elvey wrote: > The cap is most likely completely dry inside. It would > have cooked completely by now. It is possible to reform a > cap backwards but that requires a slow current for > a long time. Of course, the capacitance would be really > small because the case has a small surface area compared > to the positive terminal. Good thing that the designers at HP didn't work for Earl "Madman" Muntz. That kind of behavior (unit working even though a component had failed) would have been a hanging offense. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 17:06:33 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:06:33 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <00d401c9c22e$c5014a10$c900a8c0@JWEST> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> <00d401c9c22e$c5014a10$c900a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <49EE4369.2020103@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > I think it would be best for the list to just offer a "90 day automatic > delete" ftp site Works for me. > That way every list member would be able to post a download address for > something mentioned in a post. If one of the many other sites out there > (or on the classiccmp server) want to archive that item before it's > deleted, so much the better. I suppose that it'd be nice if the "relocator" of a file follows up to any list discussion around that file, just so future readers of the archives stand a chance of being able to find it again if needed. cheers Jules From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 21 18:02:57 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:02:57 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EE4369.2020103@gmail.com> References: <012a01c9a0c9$33e02cd0$9ba08670$@com>, <056801c9c16f$f7a66e60$c900a8c0@JWEST>, <49EC0203.1030208@jbrain.com><49EBA3CE.10637.2C36F5AF@cclist.sydex.com> <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> <00d401c9c22e$c5014a10$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49EE4369.2020103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49EE50A1.3030705@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> I think it would be best for the list to just offer a "90 day >> automatic delete" ftp site > > Works for me. FWIW, I think this a fine idea. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 21 18:13:04 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:13:04 -0700 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs References: Message-ID: <49EE5300.5F56CDA5@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I was repairing an HP 9815 (desktop programmable calc) a month ago. While > > tracing it out to make the schematic, I noticed that a 680 uF, 25V electrolytic > > I am wondering why you traced out the schematic of a 9815, when you can You are free to wonder. > download both the official service manual (boardswapper guide) and > unofficial full schematics (covering both main versions of the CPU board) > from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ The service manual I found previously, and contains the schematic only for the power supply (which I had already RE'd by the time I found the manual). IIRC, during a web search I saw something about a schematic or full service manual available on a CD. Anyway, it (my RE'd schematic) is all done. Reading the ROM contents might be a future project. > Anyway... the 9815 is a somewhat odd machine. It's the only HP desktop > What was the fault? Symptoms were that sometimes certain (groups of) keys would not work. As might be expected the groups corresponded to row/columns in the matrix, but the ones that were dropping out didn't make sense in terms of the scan sequence. It turned out merely that the +5/GND to the logic boards was a little low. Some cleaning of an inter-board power supply connector and it was fine. One of the keyboard scanning ICs had simply been the first to suffer as the supply dropped. > > I made note of it in a repair log for the unit, but left it as is. Someday it > > night be interesting to take it out to measure it's characteristics. > > Alas I didn't keep the one I replaced in the HP120, so I can't check that. I suspect it is as Dwight was suggesting, the cap probably isn't doing much of anything and the lack of C just doesn't matter in the scenario. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Apr 21 23:00:22 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:00:22 -0700 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) Message-ID: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> I picked up what appears to be a dual-height QBus SCSI card (50-pin connector, and an NCR 5380 chip), labeled as a TDL-12 from T.D. Systems. Can't find anything much on the 'net (there was a posting to classiccmp a few years ago...). Anyone out there have any info on this? Thanks, Josh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 21 23:56:12 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:56:12 -0700 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 9:00 PM -0700 4/21/09, Josh Dersch wrote: >I picked up what appears to be a dual-height QBus SCSI card (50-pin >connector, and an NCR 5380 chip), labeled as a TDL-12 from T.D. >Systems. Can't find anything much on the 'net (there was a posting >to classiccmp a few years ago...). Anyone out there have any info >on this? >Thanks, >Josh IIRC it's a rebadged Viking, can you post a picture? My server is down right now, but I have a manual for the Viking. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Apr 22 00:07:30 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:07:30 -0700 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/scsi/td12.png (Sorry, it's kinda blurry...) Thanks, Josh Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:00 PM -0700 4/21/09, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I picked up what appears to be a dual-height QBus SCSI card (50-pin >> connector, and an NCR 5380 chip), labeled as a TDL-12 from T.D. >> Systems. Can't find anything much on the 'net (there was a posting >> to classiccmp a few years ago...). Anyone out there have any info on >> this? >> Thanks, >> Josh > > IIRC it's a rebadged Viking, can you post a picture? My server is > down right now, but I have a manual for the Viking. > > Zane > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 22 00:30:33 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:30:33 -0700 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 10:07 PM -0700 4/21/09, Josh Dersch wrote: >http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/scsi/td12.png > >(Sorry, it's kinda blurry...) Okay, it's not the board I'm familiar with, so it isn't the one I have a manual for. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 18:24:59 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs Message-ID: <236560.17912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I haven't followed this thread, but at least at one time (circa 1995) there was an outfit near or in Philly that would cut the neck off of yer crt and presumably meld a new face (?) to it. Sounds like fun. You work the buzzsaw and I'll be in the other room checking on your medical coverage. From chrise at pobox.com Tue Apr 21 20:18:37 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:18:37 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <49EE50A1.3030705@jbrain.com> References: <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> <00d401c9c22e$c5014a10$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49EE4369.2020103@gmail.com> <49EE50A1.3030705@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20090422011837.GI8154@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (04/21/2009 at 06:02PM -0500), Jim Brain wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Jay West wrote: >>> I think it would be best for the list to just offer a "90 day >>> automatic delete" ftp site >> >> Works for me. > FWIW, I think this a fine idea. Would it be reasonable to have it be 90 days with no access? Seems like lots of folks come along later, reading through the archives and then go looking for stuff which is likely to have then disappeared. This might allow more "interesting" stuff to persist while the cruft would be automatically expired. -- Chris Elmquist From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Apr 22 01:36:51 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:36:51 -0700 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49EEBB03.4000007@mail.msu.edu> Thanks anyway :). I dumped the EPROM on the board and looking at the strings contained therein, it appears that this particular board is in fact a SCSI controller that appears to the host system as one or more RL01/02 drives. Interesting. Now to figure out how to get into the configuration monitor of this thing... At the end of the ROM is the following text: "TDL12 K.O.Mair 1.70 (C) 1985,1986 TD Systems." Searching on "K.O.Mair" on google lead me to "KOM inc" which appears to still be in business, but I'm betting I'm not going to get anything useful from them :). Josh Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:07 PM -0700 4/21/09, Josh Dersch wrote: >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/scsi/td12.png >> >> (Sorry, it's kinda blurry...) > > Okay, it's not the board I'm familiar with, so it isn't the one I have > a manual for. > > Zane > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 22 02:52:25 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:52:25 +0100 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <236560.17912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <236560.17912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1240386745.2526.90.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 16:24 -0700, Chris M wrote: > I haven't followed this thread, but at least at one time (circa 1995) > there was an outfit near or in Philly that would cut the neck off of > yer crt and presumably meld a new face (?) to it. Sounds like fun. You > work the buzzsaw and I'll be in the other room checking on your > medical coverage. That used to be very common in the 70s and 80s - you could send a tube away to be rebuilt with a new electron gun. Usually the cathode lost emission well before the phosphor was on its way out, and particularly with colour TV tubes the glassware and screen was the most expensive part. In the mid-to-late 80s when I had a Saturday job in a TV repair shop, we did this a couple of times a month. IIRC it wasn't even that expensive, although shipping from IV51 to the Midlands where the tube rebuilders we used were was pretty expensive. Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 03:49:16 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:49:16 -0400 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <49EEBB03.4000007@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> <49EEBB03.4000007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks anyway :). ?I dumped the EPROM on the board and looking at the > strings contained therein, it appears that this particular board is in fact > a SCSI controller that appears to the host system as one or more RL01/02 > drives. Nice job there. >?Interesting. ?Now to figure out how to get into the configuration > monitor of this thing... I have a Dialog DQ614. It presents an ST506/ST412 drive as a series of RL02 "drives". It does not have an onboard configurator; you have to run an RT-11 app to set it up. It arrived with a dead Rodime drive and I haven't had the chance to fiddle with it, but I'm _guessing_ it saves its config info at the front of the drive since there doesn't appear to be anything on the board resembling NVRAM (EAROM given its age). There's a chance your board also requires an external config utility. Andromeda stuff, OTOH, has onboard config programs that you talk to via a serial cable. I haven't configured one of those in 20+ years, but ISTR it was rather trivial to do. I didn't see an obvious serial port on your board, but if it had one, it'd likely be a 2x5 0.1" pin header patch, potentially with one pin missing, a la DLV11J. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 22 08:22:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:22:24 -0700 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> <49EEBB03.4000007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 4:49 AM -0400 4/22/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Andromeda stuff, OTOH, has onboard config programs that you talk to >via a serial cable. I haven't configured one of those in 20+ years, >but ISTR it was rather trivial to do. I didn't see an obvious serial >port on your board, but if it had one, it'd likely be a 2x5 0.1" pin >header patch, potentially with one pin missing, a la DLV11J. OTOH, if this is the 1st Gen. Viking board, configuration could require a special cab kit. The Viking QDT and variants require a special cab kit that includes both SCSI and Serial off of the 50-pin connector. This of course makes life interesting. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Apr 22 08:51:44 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:51:44 -0500 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> <49EEBB03.4000007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <55801047-688E-4F96-A7DB-2DEBAB83C26B@lunar-tokyo.net> I made a Viking console cable out of a generic SCSI cable to configure mine. I can post the pinout when I get home tonight if someone needs it. On Apr 22, 2009, at 8:22 AM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 4:49 AM -0400 4/22/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Andromeda stuff, OTOH, has onboard config programs that you talk to >> via a serial cable. I haven't configured one of those in 20+ years, >> but ISTR it was rather trivial to do. I didn't see an obvious serial >> port on your board, but if it had one, it'd likely be a 2x5 0.1" pin >> header patch, potentially with one pin missing, a la DLV11J. > > OTOH, if this is the 1st Gen. Viking board, configuration could > require a special cab kit. The Viking QDT and variants require a > special cab kit that includes both SCSI and Serial off of the 50-pin > connector. This of course makes life interesting. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Apr 22 09:14:39 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:14:39 -0500 Subject: TD Systems TDL-12 info... (QBus SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <55801047-688E-4F96-A7DB-2DEBAB83C26B@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <49EE9656.7050404@mail.msu.edu> <49EEA612.6030203@mail.msu.edu> <49EEBB03.4000007@mail.msu.edu> <55801047-688E-4F96-A7DB-2DEBAB83C26B@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: I forgot to mention that you don't need the special cable to USE the card, a normal SCSI cable will do. You only need the cable if you have to change the stored settings on the card (use disconnect, etc). The card autoconfigures by default. On Apr 22, 2009, at 8:51 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > I made a Viking console cable out of a generic SCSI cable to > configure mine. I can post the pinout when I get home tonight if > someone needs it. > > On Apr 22, 2009, at 8:22 AM, "Zane H. Healy" > wrote: > >> At 4:49 AM -0400 4/22/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Andromeda stuff, OTOH, has onboard config programs that you talk to >>> via a serial cable. I haven't configured one of those in 20+ years, >>> but ISTR it was rather trivial to do. I didn't see an obvious >>> serial >>> port on your board, but if it had one, it'd likely be a 2x5 0.1" pin >>> header patch, potentially with one pin missing, a la DLV11J. >> >> OTOH, if this is the 1st Gen. Viking board, configuration could >> require a special cab kit. The Viking QDT and variants require a >> special cab kit that includes both SCSI and Serial off of the 50- >> pin connector. This of course makes life interesting. >> >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 11:45:26 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:45:26 -0600 Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers Message-ID: In case anyone didn't notice from the RSS feed... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 11:47:26 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:47:26 -0600 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:52:25 +0100. <1240386745.2526.90.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1240386745.2526.90.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: > In the mid-to-late 80s when I had a Saturday job in a TV repair shop, we > did this a couple of times a month. IIRC it wasn't even that expensive, > although shipping from IV51 to the Midlands where the tube rebuilders we > used were was pretty expensive. Did you ever do a repair job on "screen rot" by removing the existing epoxy and safety lens and adding new epoxy between the tube and the safety lens? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 22 12:29:05 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:29:05 -0500 Subject: FTP upload site (Was: Re: List behaviour) In-Reply-To: <20090422011837.GI8154@n0jcf.net> References: <49EC70FA.7000405@gmail.com> <00d401c9c22e$c5014a10$c900a8c0@JWEST> <49EE4369.2020103@gmail.com> <49EE50A1.3030705@jbrain.com> <20090422011837.GI8154@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49EF53E1.8090103@oldskool.org> Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (04/21/2009 at 06:02PM -0500), Jim Brain wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Jay West wrote: >>>> I think it would be best for the list to just offer a "90 day >>>> automatic delete" ftp site >>> Works for me. >> FWIW, I think this a fine idea. > > Would it be reasonable to have it be 90 days with no access? Seems > like lots of folks come along later, reading through the archives and > then go looking for stuff which is likely to have then disappeared. > This might allow more "interesting" stuff to persist while the cruft > would be automatically expired. Agreed; I have implemented this elsewhere by using the -atime option of the unix find command. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 22 12:42:19 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:42:19 +0100 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1240422139.2526.109.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 10:47 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article <1240386745.2526.90.camel at elric>, > Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: > > > In the mid-to-late 80s when I had a Saturday job in a TV repair shop, we > > did this a couple of times a month. IIRC it wasn't even that expensive, > > although shipping from IV51 to the Midlands where the tube rebuilders we > > used were was pretty expensive. > > Did you ever do a repair job on "screen rot" by removing the existing > epoxy and safety lens and adding new epoxy between the tube and the > safety lens? Nope, I've never even seen this "screen rot" on any tube. Maybe we don't get it in the UK? Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 22 12:52:44 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:52:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <311224.59887.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> That's a great idea... Amiga branded sweets! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 20/4/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 10:46 PM On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I would, but then I'd need a little extra to actually do something worthwhile with the company :) Mentos? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:19:25 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:19:25 -0400 Subject: Oracle To Buy Sun Microsystems In-Reply-To: <311224.59887.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <311224.59887.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > That's a great idea... Amiga branded sweets! As long as they didn't taste like sour grapes ;-) -ethan From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Apr 22 14:25:11 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:25:11 -0700 Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49EF6F17.20801@mindspring.com> And I hope bitsavers is going to get a 1G or better internet drop :-) These files are HUGE. Richard wrote: > In case anyone didn't notice from the RSS feed... > > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:25:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:25:05 -0500 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <1240422139.2526.109.camel@elric> References: <1240422139.2526.109.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49EF6F11.6090109@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Nope, I've never even seen this "screen rot" on any tube. Maybe we > don't get it in the UK? I've seen it on lots of HP terminals in the UK, and there's also a Digico terminal at Bletchley which has a very bad case of it. I don't remember ever seeing it on Tek / Apollo / Sun / SGI / DEC / Acorn displays, PC monitors, or low-end 40/80 column displays for vintage home micros - maybe it'd be possible to narrow it down to a specific manufacturer, model range or whatnot... cheers Jules From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Apr 22 14:40:48 2009 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:40:48 +0100 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? Message-ID: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> I've just been handed a small DEC badged unit, which I think is a terminal. It appears to have been made by Termiflex. It is a handheld unit with a two line LED display, a 4x5 keypad, three unmarked buttons on one side, and a wheel device on the other. It has a 25 way D type and a 3 pole AMP connector. Does anyone know anything about it? Jim. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 14:48:25 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49EF6F11.6090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <916259.84852.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't remember ever seeing it on Tek / Apollo / Sun /> SGI / DEC / Acorn displays, PC monitors, or low-end 40/80 > column displays for vintage home micros - maybe it'd be > possible to narrow it down to a specific manufacturer, model > range or whatnot... It only happens on tubes with a laminated safety glass front faceplate. Most picture tubes use a tensioned rimband for implosion protection. Some early ones, however, used a bonded faceplate. It's glued to the front of the tube with a PVA compound. Over time, with mold/mildew/something eats away at this compound, leaving the "rotted" appearance, and causing it to delaminate from the front of the tube itself. This also happens to old color television sets - the early ones using 21FJP22 especially. The TV collector community refers to it as 'cataracts'. To fix it, you must remove the bonded faceplate from the tube completely, and clean out the gunk. On TV tubes, this is done by placing the tube neck-down in a plastic trash can (so the neck is safely suspended inside), and heating the CRT face with a heat gun. Once you get the bonding agent hot enough, you can seperate the faceplate from the tube without breaking either. Then clean out the gunk with heat/solvents, and reattach the faceplate using packing tape around the edges, leaving a simple air gap between the face of the tube and the faceplate. Some types of tubes (usually Zenith branded) have a different bonding agent that doesn't react to heat - those require a different approach. Namely, a hot nichrome wire to slice between the faceplate and tube face. I've not tried fixing this on a computer terminal before, but I have an ADM3A in dire need of this. -Ian From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:51:46 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:51:46 +0100 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> References: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> Message-ID: no, we cant see a picture :) or any part/model numbers Dave Caroline From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:59:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:59:40 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> References: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: > I've just been handed a small DEC badged unit, which I think is a terminal. It appears to have been made by Termiflex. > > It is a handheld unit with a two line LED display, a 4x5 keypad, three unmarked buttons on one side, and a wheel device on the other. > > It has a 25 way D type and a 3 pole AMP connector. > > Does anyone know anything about it? It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - there's a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug into. I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the keypad. Check the RA81 service manual... -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:08:09 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:08:09 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: >> I've just been handed a small DEC badged unit, which I think is a terminal. It appears to have been made by Termiflex. . . . > It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - there's > a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug > into. ?I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the > keypad. > > Check the RA81 service manual... EK-ORA81-SV-01 -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 15:07:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:07:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <1240345694.2526.75.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Apr 21, 9 09:28:14 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 20:04 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The PSU is, of course, a switching regulator run from a mains-frequency > > step-down transformer. Strangely there's no crowbar circuit. If that > > chopper transistor shorts, the 5V line leaps to about 30V with fatal > > effects on all the chips. I don't know why HP cut corners in this way. > > Shades of the Sony sets of the late 70s to mid 80s with the GCS power > supplies (Gate Controlled Switch, or Ghastly Catastrophic Semiconductor, Ah yes.. I rememeber those . There were various 'Great Conversions of Semiconductors' to replace them with a bipolar chopper transistor like a BU208A. > depending on who you ask). Oh, except that clapped full-wave rectified > mains across all the following regulators when (not if) it failed dead > short. Which promptly failed dead short too, with hilarious > consequences. This reminds me of the Boschert 2-stage PSUs used in some classic computer equipment (PERQ1s, for example). The basic topology is that you rectify and smooth mains (giving about 350V DC) and then ring that down to about 150V using a non-isolated switching regulator. The output of that feeds a couple of transistors running as a free-running oscillator driving the main chopper transformer. The output of that is rectified and smoothed. Feedback is then applied from the main (often +5V) output to the 150V regulator. Controlling the output of that indirectly controls the output voltage of the whole PSU of course. Now for the nasty failuyre mode. The first chopper transistor (in the 150V regulator) goes short-circuit. So the output of that stage leaps to about 350V. The second oscillator keeps on running, so all the PSU outputs jump to over twice what they should be. At this point you hope the crowbar fires, if notm you have a _lot_ of ICs to replace. If the crowbar does fire, it shorts one of the outputs of the PSU. This causes the second oscillaotr circuit to work harder and draw more current. This is detected by the current limit circuit, which removes the drive from (you guessed it) the 150V regulator chopper. Unfortunately, that is shorted, so removing the drive doesn't do a darn thing. The 2 transsitors in the second oscillator then go short-circuit. Now, across the 350V rectified mains supply you have some shorted transistors, some windings (both the inductor of the 150V regulator and the chopper transformer primary), anf the current sense resistor (say 0.15 Ohms). That resisotr then unrs out, taking the sense transistor with it. And then the chopper control IC (a 723 IIRC), a few other transsitors and some small passives 'join the choir invisible'. Oh, and a couple of PCB tracks melt. Yes, I have seen the aftermath of this. I also had to repair it.... > These would come in with the customer saying "It went bang and then the > picture and sound went off. It's probably just a fuse, it won't be too Oh, the fuse proaly has failed. But as we all know, 'a transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by lowing first'. And the same applied to GCS devices. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 15:12:58 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:12:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49EE5300.5F56CDA5@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 21, 9 04:13:04 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I was repairing an HP 9815 (desktop programmable calc) a month ago. While > > > tracing it out to make the schematic, I noticed that a 680 uF, 25V electrolytic > > > > I am wondering why you traced out the schematic of a 9815, when you can > > You are free to wonder. > > > download both the official service manual (boardswapper guide) and > > unofficial full schematics (covering both main versions of the CPU board) > > from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ > > The service manual I found previously, and contains the schematic only for > the power supply (which I had already RE'd by the time I found the manual). I don;t know where you found that manual, but it is certainly available from hpmusuem.net, along with the schematics of the 9815 (and many other machines). > IIRC, during a web search I saw something about a schematic or full service > manual available on a CD. Ah yes,, the HPCC schematics CD. That contains the same schematics as on hpmuseum.net along with a few others and ones for most of the LED HP handhelds. FWIW, foe all I spent _many_ hours producing those, I don't get a penny (cent, whatever) from the sale of the CD-ROM. > > Anyway, it (my RE'd schematic) is all done. Well, if people would rather produce their own, I'll stop doing them unless I also need them.... > > Alas I didn't keep the one I replaced in the HP120, so I can't check that. > > I suspect it is as Dwight was suggesting, the cap probably isn't doing much of > anything and the lack of C just doesn't matter in the scenario. > Almost certainly. It was just a decoupler on the 12V rail (and not a particularly good one, the HF stuff being taken care of by several ceramic capacitors).. I didn't other to test it, when I found it was in backwards, I dug out a replacement and fitted it. On the grounds that correcting a thing like this prevents 'interesting' problems later. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 15:16:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:16:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <236560.17912.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 21, 9 04:24:59 pm Message-ID: > > > I haven't followed this thread, but at least at one time (circa 1995) > there was an outfit near or in Philly that would cut the neck off of yer > crt and presumably meld a new face (?) to it. Sounds like fun. You work Normally it was the other way round. You kept the screen/phosphors/shaddowmask, etc and replaced the electron gun (either the whole thing, or just the heater/cathode part, depending on the CRT type). It was a way of getting CRTs that had lost emission (i.e. worn-out cathode) going again. It was common in the UK too, and I wish such places were still around. Getting replacement (as in new) CRTs is non-trivial in my experience, and I haev an awful lot of them in use here). > the buzzsaw and I'll be in the other room checking on your medical > coverage. There are, not suprisingly, many ways to let the air in slowly. Which you need to do anyway, sine a sudden rush of air will damage the phosphors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 15:24:58 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:24:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 22, 9 08:40:48 pm Message-ID: > > I've just been handed a small DEC badged unit, which I think is a = > terminal. It appears to have been made by Termiflex. > > It is a handheld unit with a two line LED display, a 4x5 keypad, three = > unmarked buttons on one side, and a wheel device on the other. > > It has a 25 way D type and a 3 pole AMP connector. > > Does anyone know anything about it? THis sounds like the pocket terminal that field sevice used to run diagnostics on RA81a, TU81s, etc. It's shown in some of the manuals for those devices. You could use a normal CRT terminal for this, but the pocket one was easier to cary around. The DB25 is normal RS232, I assume it's wired as a DTE. THe Amp plug is power input, I forget the voltage (it's likely to be either 5V or 12V, I suspect the former). -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 15:34:55 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:34:55 -0600 Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:25:11 -0700. <49EF6F17.20801@mindspring.com> Message-ID: In article <49EF6F17.20801 at mindspring.com>, Don North writes: > And I hope bitsavers is going to get a 1G or better internet drop :-) > These files are HUGE. Bitsavers is hosted by our wonderful friend Jay West. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 15:36:42 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:36:42 -0600 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:42:19 +0100. <1240422139.2526.109.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1240422139.2526.109.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: > > Did you ever do a repair job on "screen rot" by removing the existing > > epoxy and safety lens and adding new epoxy between the tube and the > > safety lens? > > Nope, I've never even seen this "screen rot" on any tube. Maybe we > don't get it in the UK? Its highly dependent on manufacturing materials, climate and lifetime of the tube. There's plenty of CRTs out there with the problem. I posted a link to a technique recently that makes it easy to remove the adhesive and restore the tube to visibility. Unfortunately it compromises the safety purpose of the adhesive. I'm interested in techniques for manually restoring the tube to its original condition instead of just removing the adhesive. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 22 15:39:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:39:18 -0400 Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Richard wrote: >> And I hope bitsavers is going to get a 1G or better internet drop :-) >> These files are HUGE. > > Bitsavers is hosted by our wonderful friend Jay West. We really need to buy that guy a lifetime supply of beer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 15:40:22 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:40:22 -0600 Subject: DEC peripheral/parts nomenclature In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:59:40 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Check the RA81 service manual... Not being intimately familiar with all the DEC nomenclature, is there any site where this sort of thing is summarized in table form? KD11, RA81, RP04, LA36, VT100, etc., they all follow a pattern and it seems there is even some consistency "R" for disc drives, "VT" for video terminals, etc. However, for those of us that don't have this sort of thing memorized, it sure would be handy to have an online reference. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 15:43:15 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:43:15 -0600 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:59:40 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - there's > a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug > into. I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the > keypad. Is this is the one you're talking about? I have one of those I picked up on ebay, and I had no idea where/how it was used, so thanks for mentioning the RA81 service manual :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:43:21 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:43:21 -0500 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49EF8169.1080900@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I haven't followed this thread, but at least at one time (circa 1995) >> there was an outfit near or in Philly that would cut the neck off of yer >> crt and presumably meld a new face (?) to it. Sounds like fun. You work > > Normally it was the other way round. You kept the > screen/phosphors/shaddowmask, etc and replaced the electron gun (either > the whole thing, or just the heater/cathode part, depending on the CRT > type). It was a way of getting CRTs that had lost emission (i.e. worn-out > cathode) going again. Did they typically replace the damage with a new section from the factory (i.e. manufacturers were happy to supply 'bits' of a CRT) - or would the repairers find a donor tube and salvage the sections that they needed? cheers Jules From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Apr 22 15:56:06 2009 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:56:06 +0100 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? References: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: >> I've just been handed a small DEC badged unit, which I think is a >> terminal. It appears to have been made by Termiflex. . . . > It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - there's > a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug > into. I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the > keypad. > > Check the RA81 service manual... EK-ORA81-SV-01 -ethan That's the one! Thanks to everyone who replied. I'll go and have a play. Jim. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.2/2072 - Release Date: 04/21/09 16:48:00 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:57:47 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:57:47 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Ethan Dicks ?writes: > >> It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - there's >> a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug >> into. ?I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the >> keypad. > > Is this is the one you're talking about? > That is exactly the one I was talking about. > I have one of those I picked up on ebay, and I had no idea where/how > it was used, so thanks for mentioning the RA81 service manual :-). Generically speaking, it's just a "terminal", but the RA81 has the power plug for it right next to the DB25, meaning that they were made to work together. As Tony mentioned, you can hook a regular VT100 to the RA81 (I've done that when diagnosing HDA faults), but for Field Service, they can't assume that all customers will have a terminal within 6' of the drive so they have a portable terminal to snoop on the drive innards. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 22 16:16:40 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:16:40 +0100 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:59:40 -0400. Message-ID: <001501c9c38f$a272ec30$e758c490$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 22 April 2009 21:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Odd DEC terminal? > > > In article > , > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - > there's > > a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug > > into. I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the > > keypad. > > Is this is the one you're talking about? > service-terminal.png> > > I have one of those I picked up on ebay, and I had no idea where/how > it was used, so thanks for mentioning the RA81 service manual :-). > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Far from exhaustive, but I do find this page useful: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 22 16:18:02 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:18:02 +0100 Subject: DEC peripheral/parts nomenclature In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:59:40 -0400. Message-ID: <001601c9c38f$d51f2ea0$7f5d8be0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 22 April 2009 21:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC peripheral/parts nomenclature > > > In article > , > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > Check the RA81 service manual... > > Not being intimately familiar with all the DEC nomenclature, is there > any site where this sort of thing is summarized in table form? > > KD11, RA81, RP04, LA36, VT100, etc., they all follow a pattern and it > seems there is even some consistency "R" for disc drives, "VT" for > video terminals, etc. > > However, for those of us that don't have this sort of thing memorized, > it sure would be handy to have an online reference. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Ooops, replied to the wrong email. I meant to reply to this one: Far from exhaustive, but I find this page useful: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html Regards Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 22 16:22:54 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:22:54 +0100 Subject: DEC peripheral/parts nomenclature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <36C29363FD2145EC824C35B196F7BE50@AntonioPC> > Not being intimately familiar with all the DEC nomenclature, > is there any site where this sort of thing is summarized in table > form? > > KD11, RA81, RP04, LA36, VT100, etc., they all follow a > pattern and it seems there is even some consistency "R" for > disc drives, "VT" for video terminals, etc. > > However, for those of us that don't have this sort of thing > memorized, it sure would be handy to have an online reference. You probably want the "Dick best" list, a comprehensive list of DEC parts over the years. There are a few on the web but I don't know of an electronic version (as opposed to a scan). Antonio From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 22 16:16:44 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:16:44 +0100 Subject: DEC peripheral/parts nomenclature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49EF893C.6030805@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/04/2009 21:40, Richard wrote: > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > >> Check the RA81 service manual... > > Not being intimately familiar with all the DEC nomenclature, is there > any site where this sort of thing is summarized in table form? > > KD11, RA81, RP04, LA36, VT100, etc., they all follow a pattern and it > seems there is even some consistency "R" for disc drives, "VT" for > video terminals, etc. > > However, for those of us that don't have this sort of thing memorized, > it sure would be handy to have an online reference. It's almost what you want, but it's not a complete list: there's a list of two-character device mnemonics supported by XXDP on the last page of my XXDP manual+notes, at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.pdf Note that there's a longer list of mnemonics on pages 3-5 of that document, but those ones are not the standard ones used for device drivers etc. They're used for unique naming of XXDP diagnostic programs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 16:28:51 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:28:51 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: <-7071714017267166417@unknownmsgid> References: <-7071714017267166417@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Far from exhaustive, but I do find this page useful: > > http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html That is a good list of some of the newer stuff. It obviously misses out on much of the pre-1972 hardware, but it's a good start to understand DEC's patterns. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 16:43:51 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:43:51 -0600 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay Message-ID: Seems reasonably priced at $99.99 item # 370191254420 I think this is a 680x0 based Apollo, right? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From paul at frixxon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 16:58:00 2009 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:58:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC peripheral/parts nomenclature In-Reply-To: <36C29363FD2145EC824C35B196F7BE50@AntonioPC> References: <36C29363FD2145EC824C35B196F7BE50@AntonioPC> Message-ID: Antonio wrote: > You probably want the "Dick best" list, a comprehensive list > of DEC parts over the years. There are a few on the web but > I don't know of an electronic version (as opposed to a scan). Is that not the database you supplied me with, a few years ago? A search for RA81 in the parts field reveals quite a lot of hits, for instance, although the descriptions leave a lot to be desired! http://vt100.net/manx/part?on=0&cp=1&q=ra81&po=on From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 16:55:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:55:57 -0500 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49EF926D.1050702@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Seems reasonably priced at $99.99 On the plus side: 1) it's the cleanest looking 3000 I've ever seen, 2) the seller's mention of video connectors shouldn't be an issue; it shouldn't prove a problem for any PC workstation display that supports SoG I would think. On the minus side: 1) hard disk and/or PSU and/or all manner of esoteric parts might be faulty, 2) I don't see any mention (surprise, surprise) of a Domain keyboard in the auction listing - what a pain if the seller actually does have it ("re-PC" suggests an equipment recycler) and have managed to lose it amongst a pile of other non-Apollo keyboards! :-( ... my gut feeling is that $50 would be nearer the mark for something that's untested and is missing its keyboard; it'd be good for someone who already had a complete DN3000 and wanted to make up a nice, working example along with a spares cache. (wonder where the seller got it from if they are just a recycler? The machine looks to have an ATR network board, and I bet it was rare anyway for a site to just buy a single Apollo - wherever it came from probably had a few originally) cheers Jules From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 17:26:08 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:26:08 -0700 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay In-Reply-To: <49EF926D.1050702@gmail.com> References: <49EF926D.1050702@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't remember if this has been mentioned before, but what about Domain/OS (is that what this machine runs)? Mark On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Richard wrote: >> >> Seems reasonably priced at $99.99 > > On the plus side: > > ?1) it's the cleanest looking 3000 I've ever seen, > > ?2) the seller's mention of video connectors shouldn't be an issue; it > shouldn't prove a problem for any PC workstation display that supports SoG I > would think. > > On the minus side: > > ?1) hard disk and/or PSU and/or all manner of esoteric parts might be > faulty, > > ?2) I don't see any mention (surprise, surprise) of a Domain keyboard in the > auction listing - what a pain if the seller actually does have it ("re-PC" > suggests an equipment recycler) and have managed to lose it amongst a pile > of other non-Apollo keyboards! :-( > > ... my gut feeling is that $50 would be nearer the mark for something that's > untested and is missing its keyboard; it'd be good for someone who already > had a complete DN3000 and wanted to make up a nice, working example along > with a spares cache. > > (wonder where the seller got it from if they are just a recycler? The > machine looks to have an ATR network board, and I bet it was rare anyway for > a site to just buy a single Apollo - wherever it came from probably had a > few originally) > > cheers > > Jules > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 22 18:02:00 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090422160136.I78357@shell.lmi.net> > > Bitsavers is hosted by our wonderful friend Jay West. On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > We really need to buy that guy a lifetime supply of beer. or HP gear From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:30:02 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:30:02 -0700 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay In-Reply-To: <49EF926D.1050702@gmail.com> References: <49EF926D.1050702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904221630n3bf4b67y68552b9454de9d26@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > ?2) I don't see any mention (surprise, surprise) of a Domain keyboard in the > auction listing - what a pain if the seller actually does have it ("re-PC" > suggests an equipment recycler) and have managed to lose it amongst a pile > of other non-Apollo keyboards! :-( > RE-PC is a Seattle, WA area computer recycler. http://www.repc.com/ Last time I was there (a few months ago) I grabbed 2 or 3 LK201s for $1 each from a big pile of keyboards. They do seem to have some notion of the value of some vintage equipment and probably would have tried to keep the the Apollo keyboard together with the system if they came in together. But if they got separated it's a large enough operation there that the two probably wouldn't be reunited unless someone went there and looked around at their piles of keyboards. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:35:51 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:35:51 -0700 Subject: Odd DEC terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <304057CB060847D681AEDD8E0DADA621@XPBOX> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904221635u1b83b500i81d17deeb7c2b13d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > It sounds like the hand-held terminal I've seen in RA81 docs - there's > a DB25 and some sort of molex-type connector inside the RA81 to plug > into. ?I think the 3 unmarked buttons are "shift" buttons for the > keypad. > > Check the RA81 service manual... > That reminds me, anyone have a copy of the RA82 service manual? I have an RA82 that doesn't seem to do much and I can't get any response from a terminal attached to the diagnostic port and the LEDs on the controller board don't seem to behave as fault codes listed in the RA81 service manual. -Glen From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 22 18:39:40 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame Message-ID: Does anyone here know where I could obtain a front panel frame for a pdp11/70? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 22 18:50:44 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wanted: pdp 11/70 front panel with frame Message-ID: I'd like to get a pdp 11/70 front panel with frame. Would anyone here take a Northstar Horizon in trade? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 19:05:37 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:05:37 -0700 Subject: wanted: pdp 11/70 front panel with frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904221705s54f38cd4j9558ea296e5e9c11@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I'd like to get a pdp 11/70 front panel with frame. ?Would anyone here take > a Northstar Horizon in trade? > What is one worth to you? $300 for one without a frame: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200333873306 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 19:29:06 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:29:06 -0600 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:48:25 -0700. <916259.84852.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <916259.84852.qm at web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > I've not tried fixing this on a computer terminal before, but I have > an ADM3A in dire need of this. The NekoChan blog has an entry describing the repair of an ADM3A using the heat gun technique: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 22 19:31:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:31:52 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 Message-ID: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> Ad for a CDC 6600 remote calculator terminal on ePay, item 390046087434. Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, or was this a trial balloon that never flew? --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 22 20:05:31 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wanted: pdp 11/70 front panel with frame In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90904221705s54f38cd4j9558ea296e5e9c11@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90904221705s54f38cd4j9558ea296e5e9c11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I'd like to get a pdp 11/70 front panel with frame. ?Would anyone here take >> a Northstar Horizon in trade? > > What is one worth to you? $300 for one without a frame: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200333873306 I was hoping that nobody saw that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From useddec at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 22:12:10 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:12:10 -0500 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60904222012we551102h5990b471c4d5e6d1@mail.gmail.com> I think I have a few front panels left, including the RDC, but not sure of the frames. Are they the same as an 11/40 or 11/45? On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know where I could obtain a front panel frame for a > pdp11/70? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 22 23:04:21 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:04:21 -0600 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews Message-ID: Stumbled across this today and don't recall it having been mentioned on the list before. "Welcome to Silicon Genesis, a unique collection of oral history interviews with pioneers of the semiconductor industry. For access to streamed versions of the videotaped interviews, see the complete listing of interviews." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 22 23:17:25 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p112 and zsdos manuals updated Message-ID: I've updated the p112 and zsdos pdf files to fix some stupid errors that I never noticed. I also widened the text area. They're at http://frotz.homeunix.org/p112/files/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rivie at ridgenet.net Thu Apr 23 00:12:51 2009 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p112 and zsdos manuals updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, David Griffith wrote: > I've updated the p112 and zsdos pdf files to fix some stupid errors that I > never noticed. Are you going to update the p112 postscript file, or is there not an error in the postscript? -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Apr 22 20:37:49 2009 From: derschjo at msu.edu (derschjo at msu.edu) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:37:49 -0400 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090422213749.180251i1i5u3q831@mail.msu.edu> Quoting "Chuck Guzis" : > Ad for a CDC 6600 remote calculator terminal on ePay, item > 390046087434. > > Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, or was this a trial > balloon that never flew? > > --Chuck > Ha! "Cloud Computing," (my current least-favorite buzzword...) circa 1965 :).? What's old is new once again. ?I'd love a higher-res scan of that so I can read the text... Love the display on that unit, too. Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 23 00:29:40 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p112 and zsdos manuals updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, David Griffith wrote: >> I've updated the p112 and zsdos pdf files to fix some stupid errors that I >> never noticed. > > Are you going to update the p112 postscript file, or is there not an > error in the postscript? Fixed. Does anyone really need the postscript version anymore? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 23 00:43:39 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <20090422213749.180251i1i5u3q831@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <20090422213749.180251i1i5u3q831@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, derschjo at msu.edu wrote: > Quoting "Chuck Guzis" : > >> Ad for a CDC 6600 remote calculator terminal on ePay, item >> 390046087434. >> >> Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, or was this a trial >> balloon that never flew? > > Ha! "Cloud Computing," (my current least-favorite buzzword...) circa > 1965 :).? What's old is new once again. ?I'd love a higher-res scan of > that so I can read the text... > > Love the display on that unit, too. Notice the accoustic coupler in the top-left, bottom-left, and bottom-right. Here's what I make of the text: The Control Data Remote Calculator is an amazing new tool developed for you. It enables many scientists, mathematicians and statisticians to simultanously use the CONTROL DATA(R) 6600 - the world's most powerful computer - to get quick answers to problems stated in mathematical language. At the same time it frees the user from frustrating conventions, programming intermediaries and tedious waiting. This culmination of power and convenience broadens your horizons - encourages experimentation, innovation and creativity. Up to 2000 calculators can be installed remotely via standard telephone channels through the common-user dial network. Calculators can operate concurrently with normal processing and other types of remote terminals. This flexibility along with compact portability enables the calculator to be used for "homework". Whether at home or office, the user merely queries the computer from the calculator keyboard containing all conventional mathematical functions and symbols. Answers are shot back on the calculator's display panel. Powerful computer system, and the means for people to get at them the moment they need to, account for today's preference for Control Data computer systems in scientific research and development. Talk over your requirements with your Control Data representative. Or write our Minneapolis address, Dept 5-725. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 23 01:36:21 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Ad for a CDC 6600 remote calculator terminal on ePay, item > 390046087434. > > Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, or was this a trial > balloon that never flew? Apparently it did. Here it is in the movie "Soylent Green". http://starringthecomputer.com/help.php and search for "Mock up, calculator or real computer?" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rivie at ridgenet.net Thu Apr 23 02:32:32 2009 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p112 and zsdos manuals updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> Are you going to update the p112 postscript file, or is there not an >> error in the postscript? > > Fixed. Does anyone really need the postscript version anymore? Dunno. Just asking 'cause it was there. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 23 02:35:08 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p112 and zsdos manuals updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, David Griffith wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Roger Ivie wrote: >>> >>> Are you going to update the p112 postscript file, or is there not an >>> error in the postscript? >> >> Fixed. Does anyone really need the postscript version anymore? > > Dunno. Just asking 'cause it was there. I'll get rid of it. It's a bit large for the pipe the server is on. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 23 02:40:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:40:11 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49EFB8EB.3262.3C29A0F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2009 at 23:36, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Ad for a CDC 6600 remote calculator terminal on ePay, item > > 390046087434. > > > > Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, or was this a trial > > balloon that never flew? > > Apparently it did. Here it is in the movie "Soylent Green". > > http://starringthecomputer.com/help.php and search for "Mock up, > calculator or real computer?" Sharp eyes, David! I wonder how many of these were ever produced? Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Thu Apr 23 02:43:33 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:43:33 -0700 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Richard wrote: > I think this is a 680x0 based Apollo, right? 12 MHz 68020. The DN3000 was perhaps the best selling DOMAIN workstation Apollo ever made, but for some reason it's not one of the models I already have in my collection. Plus, it's local... so, I bid. ok bear From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 23 03:10:42 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:10:42 +0100 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49EF8169.1080900@gmail.com> References: <49EF8169.1080900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1240474242.2526.114.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 15:43 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> I haven't followed this thread, but at least at one time (circa 1995) > >> there was an outfit near or in Philly that would cut the neck off of yer > >> crt and presumably meld a new face (?) to it. Sounds like fun. You work > > > > Normally it was the other way round. You kept the > > screen/phosphors/shaddowmask, etc and replaced the electron gun (either > > the whole thing, or just the heater/cathode part, depending on the CRT > > type). It was a way of getting CRTs that had lost emission (i.e. worn-out > > cathode) going again. > > Did they typically replace the damage with a new section from the factory > (i.e. manufacturers were happy to supply 'bits' of a CRT) - or would the > repairers find a donor tube and salvage the sections that they needed? You could buy them new, at least as recently as the mid-90s. The gun looked pretty much as you'd expect - a flat glass disc with a long glass tube sticking out between the pins, and the gun assembly exposed. Some had about 2" of "neck" around the gun, presumably because you needed to weld the glass differently. Gordon From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Apr 23 03:36:31 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:36:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <49EF6F17.20801@mindspring.com> References: <49EF6F17.20801@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Don North wrote: > And I hope bitsavers is going to get a 1G or better internet drop :-) These > files are HUGE. I have just setup a new official mirror in Germany. The machine has a 10Gbit/s network interface and is currently connected with 1Gbit/s to the backbone (soon 10Gbit/s). It is accessible via http and ftp at: bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Christian From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Apr 23 03:44:47 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:44:47 +0100 Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49EF6F11.6090109@gmail.com> References: <1240422139.2526.109.camel@elric> <49EF6F11.6090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have two DEC VR201 mono monitors. They both had the blue spot particularly at the edges. The spotting exists within the adhesive that bonds the outer faceplate to the screen. The layer of goo is quite thick. (About 2-3 millimeters) The result is something akin to a car shatterproof windscreen. The extra faceplate is not part of the original tube spec and would have been added by DEC later. I simply prised off the front faceplate in bits knowing it would not shatter as it was stuck to the goo. Peel off the goo on the screen, clean, adjust the cutoff pot and the result is a bright clear display. (Don't try this if you are not comfortable working with CRT's) There is a small gap between the bezel and the tube (extra cooling?) but the rubber tube spacers mean nothing is loose. Regards Rod Smallwood I collect and restore old computer equipment with this logo. ??????????????? ?d?i?g?i?t?a?l? ??????????????? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 22 April 2009 20:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Reforming caps and CRTs Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Nope, I've never even seen this "screen rot" on any tube. Maybe we > don't get it in the UK? I've seen it on lots of HP terminals in the UK, and there's also a Digico terminal at Bletchley which has a very bad case of it. I don't remember ever seeing it on Tek / Apollo / Sun / SGI / DEC / Acorn displays, PC monitors, or low-end 40/80 column displays for vintage home micros - maybe it'd be possible to narrow it down to a specific manufacturer, model range or whatnot... cheers Jules From mike at fenz.net Thu Apr 23 05:25:43 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:25:43 +1200 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F04227.8010405@fenz.net> Hi again! I've spent a some more time with the monitor, following the CRT driver board schematic, with some good results (I hope). Thanks to Tony, I had a better idea of what to look for. Tony Duell wrote: > I don't have it, but I am not sure it'd be any more use to you than the > schematics. Very few monitor service manuals (particularly ones for > small, relatively simple montiros like this) have any form of > fault-finding charts. Most of the time you're expected to work from the > schematic [1] . > [1] On the few occasions that I have had fault-finding charts for > something I've been repairing, I've found them to be misleading and > next-to-useless. I find it a lot easier to work from the schematics and > figure out what should be going on. > Fair enough - I've given it a go. > Right. > > This is an RGB input monitor, yes? > Yes - analog RGB, as far as I can tell. > OK, what is between the IC and the CRT cathodes (I've yet to see a colour > monitor where hte video signal is applied to anything other than the > cathodes)? Most likely some kind of transistor amplifier. > Start there. Since all 3 gelectron uns are affected, look for a common > cause. Either a missing power rail, or a blanking signal. Look at the > votlage on the transistor pins, do they make sense? Or are the > transistors always saturated or cut off? > Done. The power supply to the gun drivers seemed OK - very close to 200V. Sounds about right I hope? Of that, nearly the whole lot is applied to the gun cathodes constantly; only a tiny AC component. Between each output of the AN5356 and the CRT itself are two transistors. The first looks like an amplifier (the base is driven from the AN5356's colour output). For the second transistor on all three colours, the base is driven by the same line, which is derived from an output on the AN5356. I'm guessing this is the blanking part of the CRT driver. Looking at the output of that pin (#1) on the AN5356, I get a very regular waveform, which makes sense in the context of blanking. This drives something on the main board (I'm guessing the scan electronics...), plus a small two-stage amplifier driven from a 12V supply, which then drives the bases of all three of the final CRT drive transistors. Things look pretty good after the first stage of the small amp (a nearly square waveform), but the second transistor appears to be doing nothing, the output of the amp sitting lowish despite the good signal into the base. So, my suspect is that transistor. The way this normally works is that there is a voltage divider (5.6k / 330 ohms) that keeps the output low. The output transistor is placed across the 5.6k resistor; when it is driven, I expect its resistance is a lot lower than 5.6k, pulling the voltage high.What I'm actually seeing is the output voltage sitting at about 4V, with a very little AC component. So perhaps that transistor has failed, sitting at a constant resistance, and holding blanking on. So, three simple questions for anyone who knows more than me! 1 - Does my understanding of the way this works sound correct? I'm guessing at a lot of this stuff... 2 - Could I be leaping to the wrong conclusion in blaming that transistor? 3 - How can I check? Could I pull the 5.6K resistor and the suspect transistor, replace the resistor with a 5K pot set to 5k initially, and wind the pot down a little, see if the picture comes back in some form? Good idea, or misguided? Mike. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 23 05:50:41 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:50:41 +0100 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49F04227.8010405@fenz.net> References: <49F04227.8010405@fenz.net> Message-ID: <1240483841.2526.116.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:25 +1200, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > 3 - How can I check? Could I pull the 5.6K resistor and the suspect > transistor, replace the resistor with a 5K pot set to 5k initially, and > wind the pot down a little, see if the picture comes back in some form? > Good idea, or misguided? You could test the transistor, or even replace it. Gordon From mike at fenz.net Thu Apr 23 06:25:01 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:25:01 +1200 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <1240483841.2526.116.camel@elric> References: <49F04227.8010405@fenz.net> <1240483841.2526.116.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49F0500D.4060300@fenz.net> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:25 +1200, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: >> 3 - How can I check? Could I pull the 5.6K resistor and the suspect >> transistor, replace the resistor with a 5K pot set to 5k initially, and >> wind the pot down a little, see if the picture comes back in some form? >> Good idea, or misguided? >> > > You could test the transistor, or even replace it. > > Gordon Good idea - my description there did go a bit awry; I meant to write something along the lines of 'if the transistor isn't obviously faulty...'. Another thing I'll have to remember how to do, I haven't tested a transistor since maybe 1990. Oh well. I'll try to refresh my memory tomorrow. Don't forget that an interest in classic computers and an ability to puzzle through simple schematics doesn't necessarily mean someone knows one end of a transistor from the other! Also, replacing the transistor was something I intentionally left out of my earlier mail - the part number is 60304e, both on the schematic and the component. Google doesn't know what to do with that, and neither do I. Hopefully there will be a close-enough alternative. Does it sound familiar to anyone? Mike From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 23 07:46:32 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:46:32 -0500 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: <624966d60904222012we551102h5990b471c4d5e6d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <624966d60904222012we551102h5990b471c4d5e6d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F06328.70209@ubanproductions.com> I'm looking for a frame. They are the same for all of the later 11s (e.g. 35, 40, 45, 55, 70). Paul Anderson wrote: > I think I have a few front panels left, including the RDC, but not sure of > the frames. Are they the same as an 11/40 or 11/45? > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> Does anyone here know where I could obtain a front panel frame for a >> pdp11/70? >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 08:14:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:14:05 -0400 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: <49F06328.70209@ubanproductions.com> References: <624966d60904222012we551102h5990b471c4d5e6d1@mail.gmail.com> <49F06328.70209@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > I'm looking for a frame. They are the same for all of the > later 11s (e.g. 35, 40, 45, 55, 70). > > Paul Anderson wrote: >> I think I have a few front panels left, including the RDC, but not sure of >> the frames. Are they the same as an 11/40 ?or 11/45? Are the frames the same on an 11/70 for the RDM and the lights-and-switches panel? They look the same to me in photos, but I haven't seen both side-by-side. I ask because both of my 11/70s have RDMs and I would like to put a lights-and-switches on at least one of them. Jay West gave me a stripped front panel (no switches) some time ago, so realistically, I need switches, toggles, and plexiglass to get that one fully working, but I'd be happy to have lights and no switches or switches with C&K paddles (which I already have). Given the prices on intact panels, I'm probably going to shop for 2-3 imperfect panels and mix parts. I don't mind a bit of refurb work, and from some research, panels with broken switches and such don't fetch top dollar. -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 23 09:06:12 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:06:12 +0200 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: References: <624966d60904222012we551102h5990b471c4d5e6d1@mail.gmail.com> <49F06328.70209@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20090423140612.GA10175@Update.UU.SE> > them. Jay West gave me a stripped front panel (no switches) some time > ago, so realistically, I need switches, toggles, and plexiglass to get > that one fully working, but I'd be happy to have lights and no > switches or switches with C&K paddles (which I already have). I've seen two people (one on this list I think) mold their own swithces for PDP-8's. I'm going to atempt this myself for the five missing/broken switches on my PDP-8/e. (unless someone would sell me a handful :) When I get around to it (within a few months) I'll document the process and if its not too hard, maybe I can help others with replacements. Regards, Pontus. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Apr 23 09:14:22 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:14:22 +0200 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: References: <624966d60904222012we551102h5990b471c4d5e6d1@mail.gmail.com> <49F06328.70209@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: I have an 11/70 with "full console" standing next to an 11/70 with "RDM console". I can check both frames probably on Saturday, and report back my findings. But Guy will know this too, I guess. - Henk. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:14:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: pdp11/70 front panel frame > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >> I'm looking for a frame. They are the same for all of the >> later 11s (e.g. 35, 40, 45, 55, 70). >> >> Paul Anderson wrote: >>> I think I have a few front panels left, including the RDC, but not >>> sure of the frames. Are they the same as an 11/40 or 11/45? > > Are the frames the same on an 11/70 for the RDM and the > lights-and-switches panel? They look the same to me in photos, but I > haven't seen both side-by-side. I ask because both of my 11/70s have > RDMs and I would like to put a lights-and-switches on at least one of > them. Jay West gave me a stripped front panel (no switches) some time > ago, so realistically, I need switches, toggles, and plexiglass to get > that one fully working, but I'd be happy to have lights and no > switches or switches with C&K paddles (which I already have). > > -ethan From rickb at bensene.com Thu Apr 23 10:36:56 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:36:56 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck wrote: > > Ad for a CDC 6600 remote calculator terminal on ePay, item > 390046087434. > > Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, or was this a trial > balloon that never flew? > Here's a larger scan of the original ad: http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/a-cdc-11-65.html CDC patented the concept at a pretty detailed level. It's in US Patent #3380031: http://www.google.com/patents?id=pShQAAAAEBAJ&dq=3380031 Rumor has it, though unsubstantiated personally, that University of Illinois had quite a number of these things. With desktop calculator technology advancing at such a crazy rate in the mid-1960's, the cost of a true desktop electronic calculator came down very quickly, making a device such as this (though it was capable of some advanced math functionality that wasn't typically available until the Hewlett Packard 9100A in '68) very limited in terms of its practical lifetime. A great artifact of bygone days. Wish that the eBay auction was for one of the terminals themselves rather than just an ad -- would like to find one of these for the museum. It'd be a pretty simple job to write a program on a computer to emulate the mainframe side of the connection and bring such a device back to life, since it's rather hard to find a running CDC 6600 system today (not to mention, finding the host-side software). The patent has enough information that seems that it'd be possible to build a simulator (or better yet, a functional equivalent) using today's technology. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 23 11:13:58 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:13:58 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <20090422213749.180251i1i5u3q831@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <20090422213749.180251i1i5u3q831@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49F093C6.4030007@bitsavers.org> derschjo at msu.edu wrote: > I'd love a higher-res scan of that so I can read the text... > NEW REMOTE CALCULATOR brings high-powered computing to the individual scientist's desk The Control Data Remote Calculator is an amazing new tool developed for you. It enables many scientists, mathe- maticians and statisticians to simultaneously use the CONTROL DATA 6600 -- the world's most powerful com- puter -- to get quick answers to problems stated in mate- matical language. At the same time it frees the user from tedious wating. This combination fo power and ocnvenience broadens your horizons -- encourges experimentation, innovation and creativity. Up to 2000 calculators can be installed remotely, via standard telephone channels, through the common-user dial network. Calculators can operate concurrently with normal processing and other typoes of remote terminals. This flexi- bility along with compact portability enables the calculator to be used to "homework." Whether at home or office, the user merely querries the computer form the calculator keyboard containing all conventional mathematical functions and symbols. Answers are shot back on the calculator's display panel. Powerful computer systems, and the means for people to get at them the moment they need to, account for today's preference for Control Data computer systems in scientific research and development. Talk over your requirements with your Control Data Repre- sentative. Or write our Min- neapolis address. Dept. E-125 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Apr 23 11:53:16 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:53:16 +0100 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23 Apr 2009, at 11:26, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Stumbled across this today and don't recall it having been mentioned > on the list before. > > "Welcome to Silicon Genesis, a unique collection of oral history > interviews with pioneers of the semiconductor industry. For access > to streamed versions of the videotaped interviews, see the > complete listing of interviews." > > Too modern for me, my classic semiconductors are Germanium :-) Perhaps they allow the relay/valve/germanium generation (which does NOT include me by the way) to contribute too. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 23 12:54:22 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:54:22 -0700 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F0AB4E.1080502@bitsavers.org> Roger Holmes wrote: > > On 23 Apr 2009, at 11:26, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> Stumbled across this today and don't recall it having been mentioned >> on the list before. >> >> "Welcome to Silicon Genesis, a unique collection of oral history >> interviews with pioneers of the semiconductor industry. For access >> to streamed versions of the videotaped interviews, see the >> complete listing of interviews." >> >> > > > Too modern for me, my classic semiconductors are Germanium :-) > > Perhaps they allow the relay/valve/germanium generation (which does NOT > include me by the way) to contribute too. > > Michael Riordan (Crystal Fire) may be more appropriate for your interests. The people mentioned seem appropriate for something called "Silicon Genesis" though it probably should have said pioneers "in" the semiconductor industry and not "of". There clearly was a semiconductor industry elsewhere before Shockley and Fairchild. People in "Silicon Valley" have an unfortunate habit of discounting technology that was was created before there was a "Silicon Valley". http://www.computerhistory.org/semiconductor/ goes back a bit farther. There is an active group at CHM working on documenting semiconductor history. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 12:55:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:55:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reforming caps and CRTs In-Reply-To: <49EF8169.1080900@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 22, 9 03:43:21 pm Message-ID: [CRT rebuilding] > Did they typically replace the damage with a new section from the factory > (i.e. manufacturers were happy to supply 'bits' of a CRT) - or would the > repairers find a donor tube and salvage the sections that they needed? The former, always. Yes, the manufacturers would supply electron gun assemblies and sometimes just the heater/cathode part. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 13:09:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:09:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49F04227.8010405@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Apr 23, 9 10:25:43 pm Message-ID: > > Hi again! > > I've spent a some more time with the monitor, following the CRT driver > board schematic, with some good results (I hope). Thanks to Tony, I had > a better idea of what to look for. > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't have it, but I am not sure it'd be any more use to you than the > > schematics. Very few monitor service manuals (particularly ones for > > small, relatively simple montiros like this) have any form of > > fault-finding charts. Most of the time you're expected to work from the > > schematic [1] . > > [1] On the few occasions that I have had fault-finding charts for > > something I've been repairing, I've found them to be misleading and > > next-to-useless. I find it a lot easier to work from the schematics and > > figure out what should be going on. > > > Fair enough - I've given it a go. > > > Right. > > > > This is an RGB input monitor, yes? > > > Yes - analog RGB, as far as I can tell. Right. My question was really 'There isn't a PAL or NTSC decoder in the monitor, is there?' > > > OK, what is between the IC and the CRT cathodes (I've yet to see a colour > > monitor where hte video signal is applied to anything other than the > > cathodes)? Most likely some kind of transistor amplifier. > > Start there. Since all 3 gelectron uns are affected, look for a common > > cause. Either a missing power rail, or a blanking signal. Look at the > > votlage on the transistor pins, do they make sense? Or are the > > transistors always saturated or cut off? > > > Done. The power supply to the gun drivers seemed OK - very close to > 200V. Sounds about right I hope? Of that, nearly the whole lot is That's about what I'd expect on a colour CRT video amplifier. FWIW, I'd expect about 80V on the power rail for a monochrome one. > applied to the gun cathodes constantly; only a tiny AC component. Right. I assume the cathodes are connected to this supply through load resistors. And that they also connect to the collectors of NPN transsitors. Now, the higher the votlage on the cathode, the greate the effective -ve voltage on the control grid (g1), and thus the more the CRT is cut off. With the cathodes at 200V, the CRT is going to be pretty much cut right off, hence the total lack of illumination on the screen. So that makes sense. > Between each output of the AN5356 and the CRT itself are two > transistors. The first looks like an amplifier (the base is driven from > the AN5356's colour output). For the second transistor on all three > colours, the base is driven by the same line, which is derived from an > output on the AN5356. I'm guessing this is the blanking part of the CRT Does the emitter of the second transistor connect to the collector of the first? That's quite a normal circuit, and yes the second transistor is bart of the blanking circuit (when it's turned off, the cathodes go up to the +200V rail, and the CRT is cut off). > driver. Looking at the output of that pin (#1) on the AN5356, I get a > very regular waveform, which makes sense in the context of blanking. OK. > This drives something on the main board (I'm guessing the scan > electronics...), plus a small two-stage amplifier driven from a 12V > supply, which then drives the bases of all three of the final CRT drive I asusme that 12V supply is present and correct (I've learnt to check just about everything when looking for a fault...) > transistors. Things look pretty good after the first stage of the small > amp (a nearly square waveform), but the second transistor appears to be > doing nothing, the output of the amp sitting lowish despite the good > signal into the base. So, my suspect is that transistor. Right. Could well be the case. > > The way this normally works is that there is a voltage divider (5.6k / > 330 ohms) that keeps the output low. The output transistor is placed > across the 5.6k resistor; when it is driven, I expect its resistance is > a lot lower than 5.6k, pulling the voltage high.What I'm actually seeing > is the output voltage sitting at about 4V, with a very little AC > component. So perhaps that transistor has failed, sitting at a constant > resistance, and holding blanking on. > > So, three simple questions for anyone who knows more than me! > 1 - Does my understanding of the way this works sound correct? I'm > guessing at a lot of this stuff... What you say sounds logical, and it roughly matches what I'd expect to find.. > 2 - Could I be leaping to the wrong conclusion in blaming that transistor? You might be right, you might be wrong. > 3 - How can I check? Could I pull the 5.6K resistor and the suspect > transistor, replace the resistor with a 5K pot set to 5k initially, and > wind the pot down a little, see if the picture comes back in some form? > Good idea, or misguided? Why not test the transistor. Desolder it, and at least make sure the e-b and c- junctiuons test as diodes. This doesn't prove it has any gain, but it'll find open or shorted transsitors. I can't beleive that transistor is very critical, you could probably replace it with just about any small-signal transistor of the right polarity (NPN .vs. PNP) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 13:21:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:21:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49F0500D.4060300@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Apr 23, 9 11:25:01 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 22:25 +1200, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > >> 3 - How can I check? Could I pull the 5.6K resistor and the suspect > >> transistor, replace the resistor with a 5K pot set to 5k initially, and > >> wind the pot down a little, see if the picture comes back in some form? > >> Good idea, or misguided? > >> > > > > You could test the transistor, or even replace it. > > > > Gordon > Good idea - my description there did go a bit awry; I meant to write > something along the lines of 'if the transistor isn't obviously > faulty...'. Another thing I'll have to remember how to do, I haven't > tested a transistor since maybe 1990. Oh well. I'll try to refresh my > memory tomorrow. Don't forget that an interest in classic computers and > an ability to puzzle through simple schematics doesn't necessarily mean > someone knows one end of a transistor from the other! The most basic test is to remembner that a transistor has 2 diode junctions, one between base and emitter, the other between base and collector (no, you _can't_ make a transistor from 2 diodes!). So you can test each of those junctions as a diode using either an analogue ohmmeter, or more likely these days the diode-test range of a DMM. I'll assume you're using the latter. Desolder the transistor form the circuit and connect the meter, on the diode test range, between the base and emitter. Then try it again with the proes the other way round. One way should read about 0.7V (forward biased Si junction), the other should be 'overrange'. Then do the same tests with the meter conencted both ways between the base and collector terminals of the transistor. Again, one way should be 0.7V, the other way 'overrange'. If either junction measures 'overrange' both ways round, it's open. If it reads 0V (or 0.7V) both ways round it's shorted. This will actually find a lot of defective transistors. Most failures end up with one of the junctions open-circuit. If a transistor passed this test, you need more complex equipment to test it. Basically you bpass a small current trhough the base-emitter juction and see how it affects the collector current -- in other words you use the transisorr as am amplifier. Real enthuisats have a thing called a 'curve tracer' which does this automatically and plots one of a range of voltage-current or current-current traces on a CRT. But I find my Tekky 575 (such an instrument) rarely gets used when I'm faultfinding, the defective transsitor can be found with simpler tests. > > Also, replacing the transistor was something I intentionally left out of > my earlier mail - the part number is 60304e, both on the schematic and > the component. Google doesn't know what to do with that, and neither do > I. Hopefully there will be a close-enough alternative. Does it sound > familiar to anyone? I don;t recognise that sort of number at all. US bipolar transistors tend to have numbers starting 2N, European ones are things like 'BCxxx or BFxxx' and Japanese ones start 2SA..2SD (often the '2S' is omitted, but you still start with a letter). My suggestions is to look at the maximum voltage in this part of the circuit (is it just 12V'? and to pick a small-signal transistor of the right polarity (NPN or PNP). The well-known 2N3904 (NPN) and 2N3906 (PNP) would proalby do. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 23 14:22:01 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:22:01 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?On_epay_:__Digital_PDP_11/73_in_OEM_Ausf=FChrung?= Message-ID: <61A1015AF52945609F32102EF3171DE6@xp1800> Found on epay Germany : 250411957103 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 23 14:32:34 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:32:34 +0200 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090423213234.286a3e7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:36:56 -0700 "Rick Bensene" wrote: > since it's rather hard to find a running CDC 6600 system today If you don't know it already: http://www.cray-cyber.org/ They run a CDC 6600 compatible Cyber 180/960-31 every saturday. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Apr 23 14:55:13 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:55:13 -0400 Subject: Archiving 8" RT-11 floppies to CD-ROM? In-Reply-To: <49A6BFEE.50500@xs4all.nl> References: <200902261200.n1QBxnYu078328@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A6BFEE.50500@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <56401064-FC26-4302-ADCE-67A67562403A@xlisper.com> It's been a while since I brought up this topic but I'd like to thank everyone in this group who offered help. In the end, one generous group member volunteered to do the entire job. Thanks to him and to everyone who offered advice or assistance! David From lists at databasics.us Thu Apr 23 15:04:08 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:04:08 -1000 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> Subject was:Re: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? Tony Duell writes: The most basic test is to remembner that a transistor has 2 diode junctions, one between base and emitter, the other between base and collector (no, you _can't_ make a transistor from 2 diodes!). So you can test each of those junctions as a diode using either an analogue ohmmeter, or more likely these days the diode-test range of a DMM. Well, thanks, Tony. This is the first time I was confident I had exactly the right info to help another list member diagnose a problem in a couple of months, and you go and spoil it. Sheesh! (Just kidding... mostly.) Complicated questions on specific equipment from companies whose equipment I have not used makes trying to help out on this list significantly more difficult. FWIW, I almost always learn something from your posts, except in those instances where your post confirms what I already knew, and gets there before I even read the question. You're quite an excellent resource for the list, and I heartily approve of your approach, in terms of being able to fix one's own equipment. That USED to be a necessary part of things. Back in the day of my IMSAI 8080 and CP/M 1.3, I was approached by a friend (since I had a computer, and they were magic) to keep a mailing list, with extra information, for a 500+ member newsletter. The director would keep track of changes, and come over to my place to make the changes on the list, and run the program I wrote to print the labels. One month, the director came over and caught me by surprise, it not yet being the very last day possible to print the labels. I invited him in, and expressed my willingness to get started. He began to laugh. I asked him why. He said "Don't you know what you just said? I asked if you were ready to add some names, and make some changes to subscription dates, and you replied 'Fine, I'll go get my soldering iron.' " That's not as odd as it sounds, and, no, it wasn't a hard-wired program. My IMSAI had 15 boards of 4K each of 2102 memory, and replacing chips was about an hourly task. Heck, I even wrote my CONST (console status routine for CP/M) such that if there was no character ready, it would test one memory location before returning. Made interesting patterns on the LEDs.) Computer clubs were places people went to get soldering tips as much as discuss programming, despite having Gordon Eubanks (Symantec, Basic-E, CBasic) as a member, and frequent appearances by Gary Kildall (author of CP/M) in the club, the software discussions were always for AFTER people had their machines running. Sorry for the digression. The point being that it used to be MANDATORY to be able to fix one's own computer, lest one become dependent upon the pity of others to get anything done. I find that approach still useful to some extent, and I've always been able to fix my own machines at least as well as the (generally) trained-chimp-level techs at local fix-it shops. That many orders of magnitude of complexity have come and gone since the IMSAI days are good, in terms of what one's money will buy today, but bad in that one is much less likely to be able to fix one's own equipment to component level. It's not as satisfying to say "Hmmm. You need a new video card" as to hold up the offending transistor and cackle. Or is that just me? I guess, to sum up this ramble, Thanks, Tony! I enjoy reading your posts, and appreciate your mind-set on the issues. Sincerely, Warren From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 23 15:25:20 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:25:20 -0400 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Wolfe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:04 PM Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble > > Sorry for the digression. The point being that it used to be MANDATORY to > be able to fix one's own computer, lest one become dependent upon the pity > of others to get anything done. I find that approach still useful to some > extent, and I've always been able to fix my own machines at least as well > as the (generally) trained-chimp-level techs at local fix-it shops. That > many orders of magnitude of complexity have come and gone since the IMSAI > days are good, in terms of what one's money will buy today, but bad in > that one is much less likely to be able to fix one's own equipment to > component level. It's not as satisfying to say "Hmmm. You need a new > video card" as to hold up the offending transistor and cackle. Or is > that just me? > > I guess, to sum up this ramble, Thanks, Tony! I enjoy reading your posts, > and appreciate your mind-set on the issues. > > Sincerely, > > Warren You can fix anything sold today if you want to spend a bunch of money for equipment to deal with surface mount chips (BGA type equipment is not cheap). You can get spare parts (or boards to desolder parts from) at a recycler or ebay. Most people do not go that route because it is not economical and they don't have the skills or time to do it anyway. It is also much easier to troubleshoot something that only has a few chips on it, compared to the older stuff. I have an Atari 65XE in parts currently and a Commodore 1750 REU in parts waiting for sockets to redo the RAM. The 65XE was broke when I got it and I want to fix it, it would be easier just to buy a working one but I like to tinker anyway. I don't want to go back to the old days when machines were slow and unreliable, when you had to fix a machine just to be able to use it. There are millions of people driving cars that have no idea how to do anything other then put gas in it and maybe change the oil. Why should computer (another tool like a car) be any different today? Both cars and computers are a mature product now where people and companies specialize in doing support so the user does not have to. Don't expect the masses to want to expend the time and energy into their commodity tools as you do to your hobby. TZ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 23 16:01:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:01:13 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <20090423213234.286a3e7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20090423213234.286a3e7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <49F074A9.6919.3F074574@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2009 at 21:32, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > since it's rather hard to find a running CDC 6600 system today > If you don't know it already: http://www.cray-cyber.org/ > They run a CDC 6600 compatible Cyber 180/960-31 every saturday. Yeah, but it's not the real thing, Jochen. The 180 runs essentially 6600 emulation with very different timings . DIfferent peripherals and hardware implementation; the experience just isn't the same. One might as well run an emulator on a PC. Running a 6600 "every Saturday" would have been an insane proposition, given the the effort it took to get the thing powered up. Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 23 16:16:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:16:09 -0700 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: References: <49F0500D.4060300@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Apr 23, 9 11:25:01 pm, Message-ID: <49F07829.28488.3F14F3C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2009 at 19:21, Tony Duell wrote: > If a transistor passed this test, you need more complex equipment to > test it. Basically you bpass a small current trhough the base-emitter > juction and see how it affects the collector current -- in other words > you use the transisorr as am amplifier. Real enthuisats have a thing > called a 'curve tracer' which does this automatically and plots one of > a range of voltage-current or current-current traces on a CRT. But I > find my Tekky 575 (such an instrument) rarely gets used when I'm > faultfinding, the defective transsitor can be found with simpler > tests. Most currently available inexpensive DMMs that I've seen have the capability to check transistor hFE, The last freebie I received with a parts order has that capability, a temperature probe, capacitance measurement and a frequency meter-and a backlit LCD display. They just keep packing more and more into the same little hunk of silicon. Where the two-diode transistor falls apart is in applicatons where Vce is less than Vbe. The transistor works, but it's hard to rationalize why if you're using the "two diode" analogy. One of my favorite Bob Pease columns: http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/15690/15690.html --Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 23 17:27:59 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:27:59 -0700 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > That many > orders of magnitude of complexity have come and gone since the IMSAI days > are good, in terms of what one's money will buy today, but bad in that one > is much less likely to be able to fix one's own equipment to component > level. It's not as satisfying to say "Hmmm. You need a new video card" as > to hold up the offending transistor and cackle. Or is that just me? Maybe I'm seeing this from a different angle... I don't see a lot of difference besides the complexity of the devices. A transistor is a device that you buy because you can't make one yourself without spending way too much money. A video card is essentially the same thing. You can make one yourself. Some day we will be forced to in order to keep our machines running. The main difference is that the theory of operation of a transistor can be expressed in a 1 page document. The theory of operation of a video card is a small book that requires references to other books. I guess it all depends on your concept of what a component is. I'm sure there were people in the early days of the last century who were disappointed about newbies that didn't build their own capacitors or wind their own resistors. And they probably complained that nobody was able to build things out of discrete components anymore. "These days people don't try to repair their capacitors, they just buy a whole new one! It's shameful!" (And, in case you are wondering, I have at least built variable capacitors and variable resistors out of discrete components. Why? As a kid I found an old book on building a radio receiver, and thought it looked like fun. But I cheated and used a semiconductor diode detector rather than trying to make a point contact diode.) And in the next round, I'm sure the complaints were about people buying prebuilt vacuum tubes, and then about how nobody was building their own amplifiers, but were buying prepackaged ones. Kids these days. Well, I gotta go, I'm reverse engineering a hardware RAID system today. No, I'm not rebuilding it out of TTL logic. I'm writing software to do the job. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 23 17:38:52 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:38:52 +0100 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> Message-ID: <1240526332.2526.131.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 16:25 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > There are millions of people driving cars that have no idea how to do > anything other then put gas in it and maybe change the oil. Why should > computer (another tool like a car) be any different today? Both cars and > computers are a mature product now where people and companies specialize in > doing support so the user does not have to. Don't expect the masses to want > to expend the time and energy into their commodity tools as you do to your > hobby. At the risk of getting off-topic, then at least in the UK you need to demonstrate the very basics of car maintenance before you can pass your driving test. Part of the driving test includes knowing where to check brake/clutch fluid, coolant, oil, power steering or other hydraulic fluid and changing a wheel. When my gf went in to do her driving test, I was tempted to lend her my Citro?n GSA (aircooled, single hydraulic system for brakes and suspension and cable-operated clutch) - just three things to check... If there was something similar for the Internet, we'd be in a much happier state. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 23 18:01:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:01:44 -0700 Subject: Spring cleaning books Message-ID: <49F090E8.2542.3F759562@cclist.sydex.com> See http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=99080 for a complete list of this batch. Most of this stuff is PC-related (80's- 90's). --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 23 18:12:10 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:12:10 -0700 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> Message-ID: <49F0F5CA.6030406@bitsavers.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > A transistor is a > device that you buy because you can't make one yourself without > spending way too much money. A video card is essentially the same > thing. You can make one yourself. Some day we will be forced to in > order to keep our machines running. The main difference is that the > theory of operation of a transistor can be expressed in a 1 page > document. The theory of operation of a video card is a small book > that requires references to other books. The fundamental problem is since the mid 80's you have rarely been able to buy complete information to duplicate (or in some cases even program) the hardware you are buying. Once entire computers became a field replaceable unit, manufacturers had no need to release the information any more. All it did was give the competition an easy way to reverse engineer it. Unfortunately, that's how people like me learned how computers worked; by reading the field service manuals. You don't think at that level any more, and the ability to put together a gigahertz computer is done with a screwdriver, a couple of cables, and some screws. On the other hand, now that people have a handful of common platforms, much more sophisticated software is being written. From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Apr 23 20:51:00 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:51:00 -0400 Subject: Missing Fig 2. from IMSAI front-panel modifications... In-Reply-To: <49ED7C05.4030703@mail.msu.edu> References: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> <49EC5C53.1020301@comcast.net> <49EC9524.3020308@sbcglobal.net> <49ED7C05.4030703@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49F11B04.8000803@comcast.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Heh, the IMSAI_8080_Manual.pdf is still missing Fig 2. Maybe it never > existed in the first place :). > > cpa_changes.pdf seems to be a compendium of the text part of the > original errata lists, but lacks any diagrams whatsoever. (It still > seems to reference the diagrams, though :)). I tracked down a copy of the diagram in Fig 2 that's missing. Bill Degnan has the page and scanned this into a pdf on his website. vintagecomputer.net/imsai/imsai_fig2.pdf =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 23 21:21:26 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:21:26 -0500 Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers References: <20090422160136.I78357@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <022a01c9c483$5f03e360$c900a8c0@JWEST> It was written... >> > Bitsavers is hosted by our wonderful friend Jay West. To which Dave replied... >> We really need to buy that guy a lifetime supply of beer. and Fred chimed in with... > or HP gear The latter is assuredly already in place. I'm willing to attempt the same level of saturation with regards to the former in tonnage *GRIN* J From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 23 21:50:58 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:50:58 -0700 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F0F5CA.6030406@bitsavers.org> References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> <49F0F5CA.6030406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: >> >> A transistor is a >> device that you buy because you can't make one yourself without >> spending way too much money. A video card is essentially the same >> thing. You can make one yourself. Some day we will be forced to in >> order to keep our machines running. The main difference is that the >> theory of operation of a transistor can be expressed in a 1 page >> document. The theory of operation of a video card is a small book >> that requires references to other books. > > The fundamental problem is since the mid 80's you have rarely been able > to buy complete information to duplicate (or in some cases even program) > the hardware you are buying. That is true. But it's also part of the challenge. The even harder part is to get someone to pay you to reverse engineer an obsolete computer. Not many of us can afford to do it for fun. Although we will try. > On the other hand, now that people have a handful of common platforms, much > more > sophisticated software is being written. Commodity hardware comes with advantages and drawbacks. One advantage is that it will be a long time before the last ISA graphics card bites the dust. From fu3.org at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 22:17:38 2009 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (C.H.) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 05:17:38 +0200 Subject: Tektronix catalogs now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: References: <49EF6F17.20801@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0904232017i5ee99c45x26cd223c55429cd7@mail.gmail.com> 2009/4/23 Christian Corti : > > I have just setup a new official mirror in Germany. The machine has a > 10Gbit/s network interface and is currently connected with 1Gbit/s to the > backbone (soon 10Gbit/s). It is accessible via http and ftp at: > bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de > > Christian > wow that server is *snappy;* nice / thanks(!) -- !# - fu3.org/h.christ/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 23 23:22:46 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:22:46 -0700 Subject: Missing Fig 2. from IMSAI front-panel modifications... In-Reply-To: <49F11B04.8000803@comcast.net> References: <49EB89F4.7040901@mail.msu.edu> <49EC5C53.1020301@comcast.net> <49EC9524.3020308@sbcglobal.net> <49ED7C05.4030703@mail.msu.edu> <49F11B04.8000803@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49F13E96.3030400@mail.msu.edu> Dan Roganti wrote: > > > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Heh, the IMSAI_8080_Manual.pdf is still missing Fig 2. Maybe it >> never existed in the first place :). >> >> cpa_changes.pdf seems to be a compendium of the text part of the >> original errata lists, but lacks any diagrams whatsoever. (It still >> seems to reference the diagrams, though :)). > > I tracked down a copy of the diagram in Fig 2 that's missing. Bill > Degnan has the page and scanned this into a pdf on his website. > vintagecomputer.net/imsai/imsai_fig2.pdf > > =Dan > > [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] > Awesome -- thanks for finding this. Makes things a lot more clear :). Josh From lists at databasics.us Fri Apr 24 00:25:51 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:25:51 -1000 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> Message-ID: <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> Hello, All, I'm glad my first post on this topic started some discussion. I'm less glad that I apparently didn't do a very good job of communicating. Let me clear up a bit, if I may. First, I'm not a Luddite, or troglodyte, or anything similar. I love using the finest, newest devices of all kinds, including computers. And, while I like playing with the old computers, and fixing them, nothing beats screaming speed in a personal computer. Teo Zenios writes: You can fix anything sold today if you want to spend a bunch of money for equipment to deal with surface mount chips (BGA type equipment is not cheap). You can get spare parts (or boards to desolder parts from) at a recycler or ebay. Most people do not go that route because it is not economical and they don't have the skills or time to do it anyway. It is also much easier to troubleshoot something that only has a few chips on it, compared to the older stuff. I have an Atari 65XE in parts currently and a Commodore 1750 REU in parts waiting for sockets to redo the RAM. The 65XE was broke when I got it and I want to fix it, it would be easier just to buy a working one but I like to tinker anyway. My background is as a National Institute of Standards and Technology Calibration Technician. Call me fixed in my ways if you like, but I prefer finding a (small) failed component, getting a replacement for under a dollar, and spending an hour or two troubleshooting and fixing equipment. I no longer have the spare space to keep a few dead copies of all my live equipment. I never cared much for cannibalizing equipment. It seems somehow... sacreligious. Now, if I find the bad component, it's likely to be a $50 chip, compared with a new $60 board replacement. While it gets things working again, it's just not as much fun as it was to find a part that was close to free to replace, and replace that part... a personal taste issue, that. I didn't expect I'd need to explain that mind-set HERE, of all places, though. I don't want to go back to the old days when machines were slow and unreliable, when you had to fix a machine just to be able to use it. Neither do I. On the other hand, I tend to think hardware progress has been TOO fast, and that software, because of the speed of the hardware, is immensely sloppy and inefficient, to a degree I find amazing. Some years back, I was looking at a setup for a Microsoft programming environment. It came on five CDs, IIRC, and I couldn't help thinking of Turbo Pascal for CP/M, wich came on a single floppy, and had an editor, compiler, and debugger in about 56 K of programming space. The efficiency factor difference is stunning. I believe that a bit more time at each 'watermark' of hardware progress would result in tightening of software efficiency to improve product performance, rather than just waiting for the next generation of PC hardware to hide one's poorly-written code. Again, that might just be me... There are millions of people driving cars that have no idea how to do anything other then put gas in it and maybe change the oil. Why should computer (another tool like a car) be any different today? Think about what you're saying... There ARE people who like to futz around with their cars, like I like to futz with my computer. All the people like that I know are not happy about computer control of the engine, as it makes it difficult to the point of near impossibility for an individual to work on their own car, and expect good results. That *IS* like a car, isn't it? There is something to be said for simplicity enough to be within one's skill set to repair with objects at hand. One of my friend's father was stranded in the desert with car trouble, and used a couple of gum foils, a paperclip, and a couple of rubber bands to patch it up until they could get to a service station. How cool is that? Today, unless someone is packing a spare CPU for his model car, one would be coyote bait in the same situation. We have not progressed smoothly -- rather, each area has gone off on its own, totally separate from all other areas. I could get behind a technology base where you could carry a few spare processors, and program them with your cellphone to run your car, or your PC, or your GPS unit, just by loading the correct program into it. But, nothing is even similar, let alone identical today. I can't help but think we took a wrong turn dictated to us by hyper-speed progress. Efficient progress would have dictated that we make the most of a much smaller number of available parts, each with multiple uses. Is that so hard? Somehow, I think not. And the benefits would be amazing. Hardware leaping ahead of software has given us a dictatorial Microsoft, and stifled the development of software better than Windows for many years. Slower hardware development (25% improvement per year, perhaps) would have forced competition on software vendors, to the detriment of Microsoft. It would be interesting to compare the two, but the world doesn't have a "control." Peace, Warren From bqt at softjar.se Thu Apr 23 05:48:42 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:48:42 +0200 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F0478A.2010008@softjar.se> Paul Anderson wrote: > I think I have a few front panels left, including the RDC, but not sure of the frames. Are they the same as an 11/40 or 11/45? I don't think so. It's been very long since I played with an 11/40, but the 11/40 and 11/45 have way fewer switches than the 11/70, and the frame lines up with the switches on the 11/70. Can't remember for sure the exact details of the 11/40 I played with, but it must have had some kind of filler on the panel, to get to the edges. If I remember right, the RDC panel reused the 11/70 panel frame, by the way. By the way, I could kill whoever broke an 11/70 just to have a panel. And that panel on ePay looks really clean (but that's just me, and I don't like ePay at all anyway). Johnny > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> > >> > Does anyone here know where I could obtain a front panel frame for a >> > pdp11/70? >> > >> > -- >> > David Griffith >> > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> > >> > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> > A: Top-posting. >> > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 06:11:25 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: p112 and zsdos manuals updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, David Griffith wrote: > > I've updated the p112 and zsdos pdf files to fix some stupid errors that I > never noticed. I also widened the text area. They're at > http://frotz.homeunix.org/p112/files/ FYI: The link for your friend Terry Gulczynski comes up as 404. Where are you in terms of another production run? -- From rosemarypettit at comcast.net Thu Apr 23 13:02:42 2009 From: rosemarypettit at comcast.net (Rosemary Pettit) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:02:42 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 Message-ID: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net> Chuck, As part of the promotion of this product, each Sales office got one. I was in Atlanta at that time (1966). So I got some time on it and hauled it out to Lockheed for a dog and pony show. Was called the 6060. No manual that I ever found even though I looked for years. I remember how heavy it was, a real back breaker to lug around. Eventually we had to send it back for "updating" and it was never returned. Billy Pettit From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 24 02:41:07 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:41:07 +0200 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49F074A9.6919.3F074574@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <20090423213234.286a3e7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49F074A9.6919.3F074574@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090424094107.7ebecb2b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:01:13 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Yeah, but it's not the real thing, Jochen. Sure. But as the real thing doesn't exist anymore this is the closest you can get. At least a Cyber 180 is a real computer, no PeeCee. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 24 02:59:15 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 03:59:15 -0400 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Wolfe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:25 AM Subject: Re: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble > Hello, All, > > I'm glad my first post on this topic started some discussion. I'm less > glad that I apparently didn't do a very good job of communicating. Let me > clear up a bit, if I may. > > First, I'm not a Luddite, or troglodyte, or anything similar. I love > using the finest, newest devices of all kinds, including computers. And, > while I like playing with the old computers, and fixing them, nothing > beats screaming speed in a personal computer. > I didn't think you were a Ludite, and honeslty I don't care for the newest of anything unless it has a function that does something for ME. Plenty of times I skip a few generations of product untill something I want is included that makes me want to buy it (stereo surround technology for one). > Teo Zenios writes: > > You can fix anything sold today if you want to spend a bunch of > money for equipment to deal with surface mount chips (BGA type > equipment is not cheap). You can get spare parts (or boards to > desolder parts from) at a recycler or ebay. Most people do not go > that route because it is not economical and they don't have the > skills or time to do it anyway. It is also much easier to > troubleshoot something that only has a few chips on it, compared to > the older stuff. I have an Atari 65XE in parts currently and a > Commodore 1750 REU in parts waiting for sockets to redo the RAM. The > 65XE was broke when I got it and I want to fix it, it would be > easier just to buy a working one but I like to tinker anyway. > > > My background is as a National Institute of Standards and Technology > Calibration Technician. Call me fixed in my ways if you like, but I > prefer finding a (small) failed component, getting a replacement for under > a dollar, and spending an hour or two troubleshooting and fixing > equipment. I no longer have the spare space to keep a few dead copies of > all my live equipment. I never cared much for cannibalizing equipment. > It seems somehow... sacreligious. I don't mind canibalizing equipment destined for recycling anyway. In the 68k mac group I frequent there have been numerous conversations between people who say all the old machines should be saved and people like me who think the vast majority should be recycled leaving enough decent working equipment for collectors to use and pass around. We don't need a million LC III macs sitting in garages and basements all over the world, but there should be enough so that they are not super rare and cost $10K on ebay (people should be able to buy a unit to experience it if they want to). At some point you have to quit hoarding and keep what you actually use. We should keep those units that do servive working and have access to the software and manuals to make then usable. > > Now, if I find the bad component, it's likely to be a $50 chip, compared > with a new $60 board replacement. While it gets things working again, > it's just not as much fun as it was to find a part that was close to free > to replace, and replace that part... a personal taste issue, that. I > didn't expect I'd need to explain that mind-set HERE, of all places, > though. I understand what you are saying. Quite a bit of my collection is equipment I got for barely over shipping or free locally because it had simple problem the owner could not figure out or didn't want to because it wasn't worth his time. Examples are 68K macs that just needed capacitors replaced, a mint IIfx with 2 new PRAM batteries installed but one was backwards so it would not start up, thinkpad laptops where a guy got a new power socket but didn't use flux so the solder job didn't work, powermac with a frayed IDE cable under the motherboard shorting out most of the time, 8MB RAM card for a Apple IIgs that had a dirty connector that took 1 minute to clean, etc etc. There isn't a person here that has not found a deal that was an easy fix. For newer equipment I am kind of shocked how many people toss out perfectly good hardware because of software issues that a reformat will fix. Still if I can replace something cheaper then it costs to fix it then that is fine with me too. > > I don't want to go back to the old days when machines were slow and > unreliable, when you had to fix a machine just to be able to use it. > > > Neither do I. On the other hand, I tend to think hardware progress has > been TOO fast, and that software, because of the speed of the hardware, is > immensely sloppy and inefficient, to a degree I find amazing. Some years > back, I was looking at a setup for a Microsoft programming environment. > It came on five CDs, IIRC, and I couldn't help thinking of Turbo Pascal > for CP/M, wich came on a single floppy, and had an editor, compiler, and > debugger in about 56 K of programming space. The efficiency factor > difference is stunning. I believe that a bit more time at each > 'watermark' of hardware progress would result in tightening of software > efficiency to improve product performance, rather than just waiting for > the next generation of PC hardware to hide one's poorly-written code. > Again, that might just be me... Go get an embedded computer or program your phone of you like simple hardware and simple software. I think hardware progress has stalled for a long time, instead of new architectures or new CPU designs we generally just have die shrinks, multiple cores, and new material to make the same old thing a bit faster (mostly spinning its wheels or bogging down in GUI hell). When intel tried a new way with the Itanium it was stillborn (has Intel designed anything besides the original x86 that did well?). > > There are millions of people driving cars that have no idea how to > do anything other then put gas in it and maybe change the oil. Why > should computer (another tool like a car) be any different today? > > > Think about what you're saying... There ARE people who like to futz > around with their cars, like I like to futz with my computer. All the > people like that I know are not happy about computer control of the > engine, as it makes it difficult to the point of near impossibility for an > individual to work on their own car, and expect good results. That *IS* > like a car, isn't it? There is something to be said for simplicity enough > to be within one's skill set to repair with objects at hand. One of my > friend's father was stranded in the desert with car trouble, and used a > couple of gum foils, a paperclip, and a couple of rubber bands to patch it > up until they could get to a service station. How cool is that? Today, > unless someone is packing a spare CPU for his model car, one would be > coyote bait in the same situation. The thing is cars have to be safer, and more efficient. You do not get efficient without designing specialized parts that help optimize the combustion chamber (fuel injection, temperature compensated air flow sensors, etc). If your air flow sensor packs it in no amount of tin foil and bubble gum is going to fix it, that is the price we pay. I do like working on my toy car (1981 corvette with an old simple V8 and 4 barrel carb and simple disc breaks). The thing is I would rather have a daily driver with a smaller more efficient enguine (I cannot fix) that gets good gas milage and has anti lock breaks (that I don't know how to work on either). The Corvette I can drive during the weekend for fun. What I was getting at with the car analogy is that some people wish we had simple systems for what they care about, but want the most cheap reliable and efficient setup for the things they just use and have no attachment to. Most of the old gear heads working on cars loved the old V8's since they could tear into them and fix anything, yet could care less what is under the hood of their computer as long as the web and email work. > > We have not progressed smoothly -- rather, each area has gone off on its > own, totally separate from all other areas. I could get behind a > technology base where you could carry a few spare processors, and program > them with your cellphone to run your car, or your PC, or your GPS unit, > just by loading the correct program into it. But, nothing is even > similar, let alone identical today. I can't help but think we took a > wrong turn dictated to us by hyper-speed progress. I think you will only get that simplicity and portability when one company owns the whole market and all the material and supply chains that go with it. If Microsoft had enough money to buy Apple, GE, Intel, Motorola (or whatever they are called today), Nokia, etc you will have a Microsoft everything in the house running on Windows and all networked and interfaced to your TV remote. Do you realy want that much control from one Corperation? In true capitalism that is what we would end up with (hence anti trust and monopoly laws). > > Efficient progress would have dictated that we make the most of a much > smaller number of available parts, each with multiple uses. Is that so > hard? Somehow, I think not. And the benefits would be amazing. Hardware > leaping ahead of software has given us a dictatorial Microsoft, and > stifled the development of software better than Windows for many years. > Slower hardware development (25% improvement per year, perhaps) would have > forced competition on software vendors, to the detriment of Microsoft. It > would be interesting to compare the two, but the world doesn't have a > "control." > > Peace, > > Warren Efficiency means the smallest amount of specialized parts to do the job (which is how we get a network card with a single chip and that's about it). What you are talking about is not efficiency but taking hardware down to single functions and using a bunch of them in combinations until you get something to work. I have an old Micronics ASIC 486 DX ISA only board with a ton of chips all over it, and much later 486 PCI boards with a few chips that do what all that other mess did on the Micronics board and then some. You would probably like the Micronics because you could fix it easier, I like the newer version because the board was smaller, faster, uses more common 72 pin RAM, had more functions, and was cheaper. I kept the ASIC board because it has a socket for a Weitek processor I wanted to mess with, which is obsolete in the newer faster 486 systems so no socket. TZ From steve at cosam.org Fri Apr 24 03:58:12 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:58:12 +0200 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: <49F0478A.2010008@softjar.se> References: <49F0478A.2010008@softjar.se> Message-ID: <95838e090904240158m57dc291cg6de71c575e0e7b3f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/4/23 Johnny Billquist : > It's been very long since I played with an 11/40, but the > 11/40 and 11/45 have way fewer switches than the 11/70, and the frame lines > up with the switches on the 11/70. > Can't remember for sure the exact details of the 11/40 I played with, but it > must have had some kind of filler on the panel, to get to the edges. Yes, the '40 has a few more "fake" switches (the white caps) between the coloured ones. I've not counted, but I suspect the total number of switches (fake or otherwise) is the same. But anyway: isn't there something simple like a part number that can be checked to see it the frames really are the same? -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 24 06:47:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 04:47:22 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2009 at 11:02, Rosemary Pettit wrote: > As part of the promotion of this product, each Sales office got one. > I was in Atlanta at that time (1966). So I got some time on it and > hauled it out to Lockheed for a dog and pony show. Was called the > 6060. No manual that I ever found even though I looked for years. > > I remember how heavy it was, a real back breaker to lug around. > > Eventually we had to send it back for "updating" and it was never > returned. If I ever saw literature on one, I've long forgotten about it. In a sense, I suppose this qualifies as one of the earlier remote interactive timesharing setups. I don't recall seeing any code related to this device (PP or CP); so it must have been a setup under COS and been long gone by the time SCOPE was deployed. Amazing that one found its way as a 1985 movie prop. --Chuck From james at jfc.org.uk Fri Apr 24 07:16:33 2009 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:16:33 +0100 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net> <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1240575393.9239.2.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 04:47 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I ever saw literature on one, I've long forgotten about it. In a > sense, I suppose this qualifies as one of the earlier remote > interactive timesharing setups. I don't recall seeing any code > related to this device (PP or CP); so it must have been a setup under > COS and been long gone by the time SCOPE was deployed. > > Amazing that one found its way as a 1985 movie prop. soylent green was 1973, wasn't it? could this be another one in "Westworld"? http://www.jfc.org.uk/files/westworld.png -- James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk podquiz.com starringthecomputer.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 24 07:36:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:36:23 -0400 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4D7B1282-BA39-41EC-9E18-EC2EFEA7F730@neurotica.com> On Apr 24, 2009, at 3:59 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Neither do I. On the other hand, I tend to think hardware >> progress has been TOO fast, and that software, because of the >> speed of the hardware, is immensely sloppy and inefficient, to a >> degree I find amazing. Some years back, I was looking at a setup >> for a Microsoft programming environment. It came on five CDs, >> IIRC, and I couldn't help thinking of Turbo Pascal for CP/M, wich >> came on a single floppy, and had an editor, compiler, and debugger >> in about 56 K of programming space. The efficiency factor >> difference is stunning. I believe that a bit more time at each >> 'watermark' of hardware progress would result in tightening of >> software efficiency to improve product performance, rather than >> just waiting for the next generation of PC hardware to hide one's >> poorly-written code. Again, that might just be me... > > Go get an embedded computer or program your phone of you like > simple hardware and simple software. Pardon me for jumping in, but...it's not a matter of "simple", it's a matter of efficiency and good design. Warren hits the nail on the head above. This is one of the biggest reasons why I don't, and probably won't ever, delve into the Windows world. Most of the less- clueful programmers work in that world (please don't flame, that's very different from saying that all of them are less clueful) and they tend to be extremely wasteful of resources. I work in the embedded systems world, and now (again, thankfully) in the world of scientific HPC, where every cycle counts. Again, it's not a matter of simplicity of software (you should see some of this stuff!)...it's a matter of taking performance seriously, not being wasteful, and knowing what you're doing. > I think hardware progress has stalled for a long time, instead of > new architectures or new CPU designs we generally just have die > shrinks, multiple cores, and new material to make the same old > thing a bit faster (mostly spinning its wheels or bogging down in > GUI hell). Too true. I like to think of that as an architectural convergence of sorts. We've learned a LOT about processor architecture since the early 1970s, and many of today's architectures have become more similar as a result. Ideas that seemed good at the time but failed in practice have fallen by the wayside, the importance of register count is now understood, etc etc. Of course now we've got lots of people using one of the 1970s throwback architectures with many of its disadvantages and bad decisions still intact, but that's another matter. > When intel tried a new way with the Itanium it was stillborn (has > Intel designed anything besides the original x86 that did well?). Yes, the most popular processor architecture of all time, in number of chips shipped: The venerable 8051. The i960 did very well, too. Itanium died without so much as a whimper, but Itanium2 seems to be picking up steam. I gotta say, though...I have a high-end quad- processor Itanium2 machine here, and it's not very fast. My central computer at home, a Sun V480, glorious but two CPU-generations old, even under a heavy load with lots of virtualized systems running on it, is considerably faster at everything I've thrown at it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 24 04:36:22 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:36:22 +0200 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> > That many >> > orders of magnitude of complexity have come and gone since the IMSAI days >> > are good, in terms of what one's money will buy today, but bad in that one >> > is much less likely to be able to fix one's own equipment to component >> > level. It's not as satisfying to say "Hmmm. You need a new video card" as >> > to hold up the offending transistor and cackle. Or is that just me? > > Maybe I'm seeing this from a different angle... I don't see a lot of > difference besides the complexity of the devices. A transistor is a > device that you buy because you can't make one yourself without > spending way too much money. A video card is essentially the same > thing. You can make one yourself. Some day we will be forced to in > order to keep our machines running. The main difference is that the > theory of operation of a transistor can be expressed in a 1 page > document. The theory of operation of a video card is a small book > that requires references to other books. And herein is a big problem. People today don't even know what a transistor is. The difference compared to a video card is huge, but you need to know all this to understand that. Yes, you can build your own transistor. It isn't difficult, and it isn't expensive (well, compared to a transistor I guess it might be, but we're still talking close to no money). All it requires is two diodes. That's all it is, really. A transistor (and now I'm just talking about bipolar transistors, since it's the easiest, and they are very common) is extremely simply to understand and build. But why do that when someone have already done it for you? The big point, however, is that a transistor is very small, extremely cheap, and easily replaceable. A video card have none of those attributes, and that's the real point here. You can't "fix" a video card. You replace it. Whatever is build with discrete transistors however, can be fixed. If the transistor breaks, you replace it. Fixing a video card is extremely difficult at best, and in the future I suspect that will be a lost cause. Fixing whatever item made of discrete components will easily be done a 100 years from now, I dare say. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 08:13:57 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:13:57 -0400 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: <49F0478A.2010008@softjar.se> References: <49F0478A.2010008@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > If I remember right, the RDC panel reused the 11/70 panel frame, by the way. Cool. One less thing to track down. When I get serious, I'll probably try to get a couple of less-than-perfect 11/70 front panels (at less than perfect prices ;-) and get at least one good one. -ethan From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Apr 24 08:24:27 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:24:27 -0500 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: <95838e090904240158m57dc291cg6de71c575e0e7b3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <49F0478A.2010008@softjar.se> <95838e090904240158m57dc291cg6de71c575e0e7b3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F1BD8B.1060409@ubanproductions.com> Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/4/23 Johnny Billquist : >> It's been very long since I played with an 11/40, but the >> 11/40 and 11/45 have way fewer switches than the 11/70, and the frame lines >> up with the switches on the 11/70. >> Can't remember for sure the exact details of the 11/40 I played with, but it >> must have had some kind of filler on the panel, to get to the edges. > > Yes, the '40 has a few more "fake" switches (the white caps) between > the coloured ones. I've not counted, but I suspect the total number of > switches (fake or otherwise) is the same. > > But anyway: isn't there something simple like a part number that can > be checked to see it the frames really are the same? > While I am not sure about the RDM vs standard 11/70 front panels, the cast frame is identical between 40, 45, and 70. I have examples of all three and have verified this. --tom From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 09:21:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:21:42 -0400 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews In-Reply-To: <49F0AB4E.1080502@bitsavers.org> References: <49F0AB4E.1080502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > People in "Silicon Valley" have an unfortunate habit of discounting > technology > that was was created before there was a "Silicon Valley". The same is true for networking people and what was around before ARPAnet. > There is an active group at CHM working on documenting semiconductor > history. Is there any liason between this CHM group and the Tube Collector Association? We in the TCA have been branching out into early semiconductors for a few years now (but generally not ICs). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 09:25:46 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:25:46 -0400 Subject: In the Bay Area Message-ID: As was last year, 2009 brings me to the Bay Area for all sorts of foolishness and relaxation. I will be in town generally from 3 MAY thru 7 MAY, and would be interested in meeting with anyone that would like to show off their collections, or even just meet for dinner and a beer. Any interest? -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 24 09:55:14 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:55:14 -0700 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews In-Reply-To: References: <49F0AB4E.1080502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49F1D2D2.2090500@bitsavers.org> William Donzelli wrote: >> People in "Silicon Valley" have an unfortunate habit of discounting >> technology >> that was was created before there was a "Silicon Valley". > > The same is true for networking people and what was around before ARPAnet. > >> There is an active group at CHM working on documenting semiconductor >> history. > > Is there any liason between this CHM group and the Tube Collector > Association? We in the TCA have been branching out into early > semiconductors for a few years now (but generally not ICs). > I don't think there is. The group at CHM is the semiconductor special interest group. -- If you can find it, take a look at an article that just came out in the spring 2009 issue of Invention & Technology called "Long Live the Vacuum Tube!" by Mara Vatz. It has amazing "facts" in it like: "The basic structure of a vacuum tube is simple: two pieces of metal separated by nothingness, a vacuum. One piece, the cathode, is heated, which compels more electrons to leave its confines, or "evaporate", than would happen at room temperature. The other piece, the anode, is not heated. The temperature disparity between the two causes electrons evaporating from the heated anode to travel across the vacuum to the unheated cathode, but not the other way around." and.. "Transistors perform essentially the same function, only on a far smaller scale. But while vacuum tubes have nothing between their two pieces of metal for an electron to latch onto, transistors are made of nonconducting ceramic material, which isn't as clean as a vacuum". This is from a book published by >> MIT PRESS << called "Falling for Science: Objects in Mind" I was hoping this was an April issue, but it appears it is a real article. From micheladam at theedge.ca Fri Apr 24 10:01:05 2009 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:01:05 -0600 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame Message-ID: <8386635cd751.49f17fd1@theedge.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: Johnny Billquist Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:48 am Subject: Re: pdp11/70 front panel frame > Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I think I have a few front panels left, including the RDC, but > not sure of the frames. Are they the same as an 11/40 or 11/45? > > I don't think so. It's been very long since I played with an > 11/40, but > the 11/40 and 11/45 have way fewer switches than the 11/70, and > the > frame lines up with the switches on the 11/70. > Can't remember for sure the exact details of the 11/40 I played > with, > but it must have had some kind of filler on the panel, to get to > the edges. > > If I remember right, the RDC panel reused the 11/70 panel frame, > by the way. > [...] You remember right. I was a computer operator on an 11/70 in the late 70's. When the DEC service technician came by to switch out the standard front panel and replace it with the remote console, only the panel was replaced, not the frame. Should have kept it. It was pristine... Michel Adam From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Apr 24 10:13:31 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:13:31 -0500 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> Message-ID: <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> Johnny Billquist wrote: ... > Yes, you can build your own transistor. Yes, it is possible. > It isn't difficult, and it isn't > expensive (well, compared to a transistor I guess it might be, but we're > still talking close to no money). Maybe it is possible to build a transistor that has poor gain, low bandwidth, and poor stability, probably like the first transistors made. Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she said it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she needed some equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. It was far from simple. http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/episode/view.do?episodePk.pkValue=8067618 Yes, that is a FET, not bipolar. If you have some links for making simple bipolar transistors, please supply some. It will make for some interesting reading. I recall reading how IBM spent a lot of money and a lot of brainpower building their own transistors back in the early days. If it really was all that simple, I doubt that IBM would have wrestled with it as much as they did. > All it requires is two diodes. That's > all it is, really. If you wire two diodes in series (PN->NP), it isn't the same as a transistor (PNP), at all. > A transistor (and now I'm just talking about bipolar transistors, since > it's the easiest, and they are very common) is extremely simply to > understand and build. I've heard of people disassembling a diode and making a point contact transistor, but that is already leveraging a lot of technology that put the $.10 diode in your hand to begin with. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 24 11:12:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:12:01 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <1240575393.9239.2.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net>, <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com>, <1240575393.9239.2.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <49F18261.13945.4324DD3E@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2009 at 13:16, James Carter wrote: > soylent green was 1973, wasn't it? > > Yup you're right--I forgot the name of the film. > > could this be another one in "Westworld"? > > http://www.jfc.org.uk/files/westworld.png No, this one looks to be different. In particular, that tape cartridge sticking out of the top section (technology that hadn't been invented yet) and the bottom section is differently constructed (note how the CDC keyboard forms a "lip" on the front of the machine, where the Westworld gizmo seems to use a different mounting system. Note the ventilation slots on the bottom of the machine--the Westworld ones do not extend as far up the side. It's something else, quite possibly a calculator. Perhaps Rick Bensene will recognize it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 24 11:18:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:18:46 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <20090424094107.7ebecb2b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <49F074A9.6919.3F074574@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090424094107.7ebecb2b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <49F183F6.24948.432B0AE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2009 at 9:41, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Sure. But as the real thing doesn't exist anymore this is the closest > you can get. At least a Cyber 180 is a real computer, no PeeCee. -- A PC isn't a "real" computer? You're beginning to sound like the old girlfriend who made fun of my MITS Altair. The funny thing is that the Altair was probably as fast as the STAR-1Bs we had at work--or at least it seemed that way at the time. Of course the MITS box lacked the memory and I/O of the 1Bs. OTOH, my MITS box 8080 was about the same speed as the PPU on a 6000-series system and had about the same memory. --Chuck From vern4wright at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 12:16:52 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: San Diego Wondering Message-ID: <757007.64621.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Am I the only classic computer enthusiast left in San Diego? Since Will Rose decamped for England, and Don Maslin died, and Bill Bailey died last year, it seems that there is no one here who shares my/our interests. It's all Windoze (oh, I wish OS/2 had made it!) and Linux. No aspersion cast on either (well, even though I write for both, you get my feeling from my spelling of the former) - but there is no one here who has the slightest interest in anything before y2k! Local groups consider "technical" playing with the latest piece of hardware from Fry's. Just wondering if there are any lurkers here who are in a similar situation, and would like to resurrect my old Dina-SIG in the form of talking, playing with, experimenting with classic computers. Maybe developing new ideas (Bill Bailey and I, before he died, were working on concepts for biological computers).... If so, drop me a line. Don't mean to sound needy - but it's lonely down here. San Diego was a major epicenter of the development of the S-100 CP/M computer. We're all getting older but it can't be that of 3 million people I'm the only one left?!? Vern Wright From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 24 14:52:17 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:52:17 -0700 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49F21871.EE8F62BE@cs.ubc.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > > Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she said > it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she needed some > equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. It was > far from simple. > > http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/episode/view.do?episodePk.pkValue=8067618 > > Yes, that is a FET, not bipolar. If you have some links for making > simple bipolar transistors, please supply some. It will make for some > interesting reading. Jim, I'm guessing you mistakenly pasted the wrong link in there. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 24 14:58:00 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:58:00 -0700 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:59 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble > > > I think hardware progress has stalled for a long time, instead of new > architectures or new CPU designs we generally just have die shrinks, > multiple cores, and new material to make the same old thing a bit > faster > (mostly spinning its wheels or bogging down in GUI hell). When intel > tried a > new way with the Itanium it was stillborn (has Intel designed anything > besides the original x86 that did well?). > I'd say that Intel's "success" with x86 is similar in nature to that of VHS over Beta.... -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 14:00:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:00:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Apr 23, 9 07:50:58 pm Message-ID: > That is true. But it's also part of the challenge. The even harder > part is to get someone to pay you to reverse engineer an obsolete > computer. Not many of us can afford to do it for fun. Although we > will try. Is this aimed at me :-). All I'll say is that I wish I could find someone to pay me to do that... > > > On the other hand, now that people have a handful of common platforms, much > > more > > sophisticated software is being written. > > Commodity hardware comes with advantages and drawbacks. One advantage > is that it will be a long time before the last ISA graphics card bites > the dust. Well, given that a CGA card is technically a graphics card, I suspect it'll be a very long time.. Offical schematics and programing info exist for that card. The most complicated chip on it (in terms od understanding it, not transistor count) is a 6845. Making one from scratch using whatever logic family or FPGA you favour would not be all that hard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 13:36:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:36:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 23, 9 10:04:08 am Message-ID: > Tony Duell writes: > > The most basic test is to remembner that a transistor has 2 diode > junctions, one between base and emitter, the other between base and > collector (no, you _can't_ make a transistor from 2 diodes!). So you > can test each of those junctions as a diode using either an analogue > ohmmeter, or more likely these days the diode-test range of a DMM. > > > Well, thanks, Tony. This is the first time I was confident I had > exactly the right info to help another list member diagnose a problem in > a couple of months, and you go and spoil it. Sheesh! (Just kidding... I am not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I often do try to point out the 'bleeding obvious' -- or at least what's obvious to me -- on the grounds that not everybody here is a hardware expert. > mostly.) Complicated questions on specific equipment from companies > whose equipment I have not used makes trying to help out on this list > significantly more difficult. I know the feeling. I always try to help with low-level hardware problems, but it gets really difficult if I've not worked on the device in question, if I don't have the service manual, etc. > > FWIW, I almost always learn something from your posts, except in those Thank you. I'd better keep on posting, then... > instances where your post confirms what I already knew, and gets there > before I even read the question. You're quite an excellent resource for > the list, and I heartily approve of your approach, in terms of being > able to fix one's own equipment. That USED to be a necessary part of I try to ensure that I don't depend on anything I can't fix. Period. Which is probably why I have things like service manuals and ROM listings for my pocket calculator. [...] > interesting patterns on the LEDs.) Computer clubs were places people > went to get soldering tips as much as discuss programming, despite FWIW, there is still one club that's a bit like that. It's HPCC (Handheld and Portable Computer Club). _Officially_ it's to exchange information on HP calcualtors. But all sorts of things get discussed at the meetings, things (old and new) get taken apart, machines (not just HP) get repaired, or at least repairs suggested, programs get written, pulled apart,... And so on. > Sorry for the digression. The point being that it used to be MANDATORY > to be able to fix one's own computer, lest one become dependent upon the Actually, I quite enjoy fixing things. Not so much the 'fix' as finding out waht to fix. I like logical puzzles anyway, and tracking down an obscure fault is a logical puzzle. Or at least it is if you do it the traditional way of making measuremnets, thinking aout them, and only then actually changing anything. > pity of others to get anything done. I find that approach still useful > to some extent, and I've always been able to fix my own machines at > least as well as the (generally) trained-chimp-level techs at local I am not sure that's very difficult :-) > fix-it shops. That many orders of magnitude of complexity have come and > gone since the IMSAI days are good, in terms of what one's money will > buy today, but bad in that one is much less likely to be able to fix > one's own equipment to component level. It's not as satisfying to say > "Hmmm. You need a new video card" as to hold up the offending > transistor and cackle. Or is that just me? This is, of cours,e the main reason that I still run classic computers for somewhat serious work. There is a great feeling in knowing just what has failed and being able to fix it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 13:46:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:46:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Apr 23, 9 04:25:20 pm Message-ID: > You can fix anything sold today if you want to spend a bunch of money for > equipment to deal with surface mount chips (BGA type equipment is not SMD, other than BGA, is not hard to do with simple-ish hand tools... > cheap). You can get spare parts (or boards to desolder parts from) at a > recycler or ebay. Most people do not go that route because it is not Can you? I suspect the chances of finding the right ASIC for a PC motherboard, video card, etc is pretty remote. And I am told that if you desolder a BGA device, you have to 're-ball' it before reusing it, and the equipment to do that is even less common and more expensive than the reflow oven. > economical and they don't have the skills or time to do it anyway. It is > also much easier to troubleshoot something that only has a few chips on it, > compared to the older stuff. I have an Atari 65XE in parts currently and a I disagree totally. It may be easier if you're just going to replace parts until it works (in that there are fewer of them to replace), but it's a lot easier to be sure a transisotr is working properly than even a TTL IC. And it's a lot easier to be sure a TTL IC is working correclty than to do the same for an ASIC where you possibly don't quite know what it should be doing ('Is this pin supposed to be stuck high, or is it a fault?'). Not to metnion the fact you can't probe the connections to a BGA IC. > Commodore 1750 REU in parts waiting for sockets to redo the RAM. The 65XE > was broke when I got it and I want to fix it, it would be easier just to buy > a working one but I like to tinker anyway. A friend was looking at one of 'my' scheamtics for an HP desktop and made some comment like 'Did you really have to include a schematic of the fan?' (The point being that I'd taken the brushless DC fan apart and traced out a schemeatic of the control circuitry). My comment was that it is a part of the machine I might have to repair sometime. And that a transistor is a lot cheaper than a complete fan (not to mention the fact that I am more likely to have a transisotr in the spares box). > > I don't want to go back to the old days when machines were slow and > unreliable, when you had to fix a machine just to be able to use it. It's odd, but I have many fewer problems with my classic computers than I've ever had using modern PCs. -tony [...] > doing support so the user does not have to. Don't expect the masses to want > to expend the time and energy into their commodity tools as you do to your > hobby. I don't. I'd just like the chance to be able to carry on the way I think is the right way. Namely compoennt level repair. And that means I wish I could still buy real service manuals. And that I could buy spare components. I understand why I can't, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 24 15:08:47 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49F18261.13945.4324DD3E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net>, <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com>, <1240575393.9239.2.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> <49F18261.13945.4324DD3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090424130634.E63736@shell.lmi.net> > soylent green was 1973, wasn't it? > Yup you're right--I forgot the name of the film. "Soylent Green". 1973 Charlton Heston, Edward G. Robinson, . . . From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 13:50:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:50:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49F07829.28488.3F14F3C6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 9 02:16:09 pm Message-ID: > Most currently available inexpensive DMMs that I've seen have the > capability to check transistor hFE, The last freebie I received with Be careful using that facility. A lot of such meters just inject a constant small current into the base and measure the collector current. SOme of the older analogue meters simply connected a resistor from collector to base to inject the base current and measured the 'resistance' from collector to emitter. My point is that this will be totally fooled by a leaky transistor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 14:21:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:21:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Apr 23, 9 07:25:51 pm Message-ID: > First, I'm not a Luddite, or troglodyte, or anything similar. I love > using the finest, newest devices of all kinds, including computers. Well, I'll use the new stuff when it offers an advantage over the older stuff (and I consider both the performance of the old and new, the ease of repair, the 'useability' and so on). Certainly if the older version does what I want, I kep on using it. > And, while I like playing with the old computers, and fixing them, > nothing beats screaming speed in a personal computer. Now that's something that's never bothered me .If my machine takes 10 minutes to complie my program, so what? I just do something else while it's compiling. And it gets me to check my code before compiling it, hopefully ending up with a etter program (the 'poke and hope' brigade worry me -- changing things until the program compiles and/or runs) > My background is as a National Institute of Standards and Technology > Calibration Technician. Call me fixed in my ways if you like, but I > prefer finding a (small) failed component, getting a replacement for > under a dollar, and spending an hour or two troubleshooting and fixing I am suprised I didn't write that... [...] > There are millions of people driving cars that have no idea how to > do anything other then put gas in it and maybe change the oil. Why > should computer (another tool like a car) be any different today? > > > Think about what you're saying... There ARE people who like to futz > around with their cars, like I like to futz with my computer. All the > people like that I know are not happy about computer control of the > engine, as it makes it difficult to the point of near impossibility for Nor am I. I don;t drive, but I get to fix my father's car, and he's recently changed it. It's a small, pretty much base-model car. The workshop manual is _11_ volumes, and takes up over a metre of shelf space (compare that to the manuals for older, higher-specced cars that are one book, about half the thickness of _one_ of these volumes). But actually, cars have got easier to repair (provided you don't bleieve the propaganda put out by the manufactuers and the garage trade). I've read plenty of manuals for older cars where the only tool you use for finding electircal fauts is a test lamp, or maybe a multimeter. And you had to press in neaw bearing bushes and the hand rema them to size. At least one manual I've read requires the use of a lathe for some repairs. Nowadays, electrical fault-finding consists of plugigng a 'diagnostic tester' into the CAN busREad out the error codes from the approriate ECU (Electronic Control Unit). Perhaps the error will be something like ' sensor output meaningless' So you look it up in the manual. It'll tell you to meausre the resistnace between a couple of pins on the ECU connector. If it's within range, change the ECU (beacuase that ADC input channel has failed, no it doesn't say _that_ in the manual). If it's out of range, meaure the resistanve between the pins on the sensor. If that's within range, check/repair the wiring. If not, change the sensor. And there's a no hand-fitting of mechancial parts, reaming, turning, etc. Partly because things are now made to closer tolerances, but more because you replace entire units, not just the defective part. Darn it, there's no seal kit for the brake master cylinder, you have to change the complete cylinder. No spares for the pawer steering pump or rack (and yet I haev the manaul for a much olfer car that give detailed descriptions and exploded diagrams for the power steering units). And so on. And no, I am not happy about this _at all_. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 13:55:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:55:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Apr 23, 9 03:27:59 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > That many > > orders of magnitude of complexity have come and gone since the IMSAI days > > are good, in terms of what one's money will buy today, but bad in that one > > is much less likely to be able to fix one's own equipment to component > > level. It's not as satisfying to say "Hmmm. You need a new video card" as > > to hold up the offending transistor and cackle. Or is that just me? > > Maybe I'm seeing this from a different angle... I don't see a lot of > difference besides the complexity of the devices. A transistor is a The difference to me is that I know I can't repair a transistor. I suspect I could make a transistor, although it would be a very poor one (The book 'Instruments of Amplification' covers making point-contact and copper oxide junction transsitors at home). But I couldn't repair one. I can't open the package without damaging it, so the package wouldn't e any use once I'd repaired the insides. And the failure is very likely to have damaged hte semiconductor 'pellet' inside, so I can't repair that. But I can repair a video card. I know I can take it apart into separate componetnts and put them back again without damage. I know that I can do electrical tests to find out just which of those compoentns has failed. What I don't like is not having enough information to be able to carry out those tests, or worse still, once I've found the problem not being able to get the part. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 24 15:30:12 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:30:12 -0400 Subject: San Diego Wondering In-Reply-To: <757007.64621.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <757007.64621.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0BC4F502-1600-4C46-BAA8-A0DF5E443B12@neurotica.com> On Apr 24, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Vernon Wright wrote: > Am I the only classic computer enthusiast left in San Diego? > > Since Will Rose decamped for England, and Don Maslin died, and Bill > Bailey died last year, it seems that there is no one here who > shares my/our interests. It's all Windoze (oh, I wish OS/2 had made > it!) and Linux. No aspersion cast on either (well, even though I > write for both, you get my feeling from my spelling of the former) > - but there is no one here who has the slightest interest in > anything before y2k! Local groups consider "technical" playing with > the latest piece of hardware from Fry's. > > Just wondering if there are any lurkers here who are in a similar > situation, and would like to resurrect my old Dina-SIG in the form > of talking, playing with, experimenting with classic computers. > Maybe developing new ideas (Bill Bailey and I, before he died, were > working on concepts for biological computers).... > > If so, drop me a line. Don't mean to sound needy - but it's lonely > down here. San Diego was a major epicenter of the development of > the S-100 CP/M computer. We're all getting older but it can't be > that of 3 million people I'm the only one left?!? I'm having the same problem here in southwest Florida. I'm reasonably certain that the only PDP-11s down here are sitting a few feet from me. It's a love/hate thing between Florida and I. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Apr 24 15:40:54 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:40:54 -0500 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F21871.EE8F62BE@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> <49F21871.EE8F62BE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49F223D6.8070607@pacbell.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she said >> it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she needed some >> equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. It was >> far from simple. >> >> http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/episode/view.do?episodePk.pkValue=8067618 >> >> Yes, that is a FET, not bipolar. If you have some links for making >> simple bipolar transistors, please supply some. It will make for some >> interesting reading. > > Jim, I'm guessing you mistakenly pasted the wrong link in there. > Indeed (that was last night's bike ride). I guess I forgot to hit ^C to pick up the link I had intended, which was: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2835524263/in/photostream/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 24 16:16:10 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:16:10 -0700 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: from "Teo Zenios" at Apr 23, 9 04:25:20 pm, Message-ID: <49F1C9AA.20422.443B4F97@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2009 at 19:46, Tony Duell wrote: > Can you? I suspect the chances of finding the right ASIC for a PC > motherboard, video card, etc is pretty remote. And I am told that if > you desolder a BGA device, you have to 're-ball' it before reusing it, > and the equipment to do that is even less common and more expensive > than the reflow oven. It's even more frustrating when you're looking at some CPLD or PAL that's gone south. You don't have the original part to reverse- engineer, the manufacturer is unlikely to furnish a replacement or even the programming for the part. Usually, this means that your widget is junk. In particular, the widget may not have been made by the outfit whose name appears on it--and they may have no idea who the manufacturer was or even if they are still in business. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 16:38:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:38:30 -0400 Subject: DEC, Kennedys available Message-ID: It so happens that a man in Boulder, CO has one, possibly two DEC H960 racks with Kennedy 9000 1/2 inch tape units. The racks look to be in very nice condition, no sides, but have the plain DEC purple/magenta headers on the tops, also in nice condition. The Kennedys are mounted in these racks, but could come out. One Kennedy is troubled, the other is believed to work. I am in Boulder today and tomorrow, and can deliver these to the Bay Area in CA during the first week of May (3 thru 7). I think he would like $100 for each rack, and probably something very much less for the tape units. Nothing is bundled - buy one or both racks, and/or buy one or both tape units. Any interested people should not dawdle on this - please let me know tonight, or at latest early tomorrow. There might be some bargaining room on price - or maybe not. Regardless, I might need something for hauling this stuff, to pay for gas. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 16:43:49 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:43:49 -0400 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews In-Reply-To: <49F1D2D2.2090500@bitsavers.org> References: <49F0AB4E.1080502@bitsavers.org> <49F1D2D2.2090500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I don't think there is. The group at CHM is the semiconductor special > interest group. It would not be a bad idea to get the two groups talking. There are some SERIOUS researchers in the TCA, and quite a treasure trove of documentation. > This is from a book published by >> MIT PRESS << > called "Falling for Science: Objects in Mind" Eeewww... So, when they compared tubes and transistors used in computers, did they find the biggest tube they could get their hands on for the photo shoot? -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 24 17:04:06 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:04:06 -0600 Subject: San Diego Wondering In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:30:12 -0400. <0BC4F502-1600-4C46-BAA8-A0DF5E443B12@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <0BC4F502-1600-4C46-BAA8-A0DF5E443B12 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > I'm having the same problem here in southwest Florida. I'm > reasonably certain that the only PDP-11s down here are sitting a few > feet from me. It's a love/hate thing between Florida and I. Ditto for Salt Lake City, although I know of one other collector in the beehive state (Hi Tim :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rickb at bensene.com Fri Apr 24 17:35:18 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:35:18 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49F18261.13945.4324DD3E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net>, <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com>, <1240575393.9239.2.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> <49F18261.13945.4324DD3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > http://www.jfc.org.uk/files/westworld.png Chuck wrote: > > No, this one looks to be different. In particular, that tape > cartridge sticking out of the top section (technology that hadn't > been invented yet) and the bottom section is differently constructed > (note how the CDC keyboard forms a "lip" on the front of the machine, > where the Westworld gizmo seems to use a different mounting system. > Note the ventilation slots on the bottom of the machine--the > Westworld ones do not extend as far up the side. > > It's something else, quite possibly a calculator. Perhaps Rick > Bensene will recognize it. > It is no calculator that I recognize. It is different in construction (as Chuck pointed out) than the CDC calculator "terminal", but the keyboard layout on the Westworld shot looks very similar to that of the CDC terminal. I wonder if perhaps the device pictured may be a follow-on to the original CDC calculator terminal that added local programmability, e.g., some local storage that could store "learn-mode" key press programs (and perhaps conditionals), and also allowed store/recall of said programs to/from the cartridge tape drive. Additional circuitry to provide this functionality would require a different (larger) cabinet, and perhaps more cooling. It is all just supposition, as I've not seen any indication of such a device existing. Another possibility is that it is some kind of m?lange of various bits and pieces of stuff put together by some prop department. An interesting mystery... Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From lists at databasics.us Fri Apr 24 17:39:04 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:39:04 -1000 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <4D7B1282-BA39-41EC-9E18-EC2EFEA7F730@neurotica.com> References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> <4D7B1282-BA39-41EC-9E18-EC2EFEA7F730@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49F23F88.8010600@databasics.us> A bit of the conversation so far: Warren: Neither do I. On the other hand, I tend to think hardware progress has been TOO fast, and that software, because of the speed of the hardware, is immensely sloppy and inefficient, to a degree I find amazing. Some years back, I was looking at a setup for a Microsoft programming environment. It came on five CDs, IIRC, and I couldn't help thinking of Turbo Pascal for CP/M, wich came on a single floppy, and had an editor, compiler, and debugger in about 56 K of programming space. The efficiency factor difference is stunning. I believe that a bit more time at each 'watermark' of hardware progress would result in tightening of software efficiency to improve product performance, rather than just waiting for the next generation of PC hardware to hide one's poorly-written code. Again, that might just be me... Teo: Go get an embedded computer or program your phone of you like simple hardware and simple software. Dave McGuire: Pardon me for jumping in, but...it's not a matter of "simple", it's a matter of efficiency and good design. Warren hits the nail on the head above. This is one of the biggest reasons why I don't, and probably won't ever, delve into the Windows world. Most of the less-clueful programmers work in that world (please don't flame, that's very different from saying that all of them are less clueful) and they tend to be extremely wasteful of resources. You've got it, Dave. I only deal with Windows because I've had clients who will pay me for it, and for the occasional odd device for which Linux drivers do not exist. My main computer, now, sadly, down for a while, is a Linux machine. "Simple" is not the adjective that I like, it's "elegant." I've always liked the idea of a Small-C type language, one that generates assembly language programs as output. That allows one to get around an inefficient compiler and do the critical parts to the best of the machine's ability. A benefit of the tiny CP/M and similar computers was that one pretty much HAD to pay attention to bytes and cycles -- or one's program was useless, or wouldn't even run. I'm reminded of the comment by Blaise Pascal, paraphrased from the French: "I apologize that this letter is so long - I lacked the time to make a shorter one." Good, tight, efficient code takes longer, or takes more skill, to write -- or both. But, I claim it's worth it. Perhaps obsessive concern about efficiency doesn't pay, but the apparent total lack of concern for efficiency detracts from the useful nature of the software, and from it's reliablity. Teo: I think hardware progress has stalled for a long time, instead of new architectures or new CPU designs we generally just have die shrinks, multiple cores, and new material to make the same old thing a bit faster (mostly spinning its wheels or bogging down in GUI hell). Dave: Too true. I like to think of that as an architectural convergence of sorts. We've learned a LOT about processor architecture since the early 1970s, and many of today's architectures have become more similar as a result. Ideas that seemed good at the time but failed in practice have fallen by the wayside, the importance of register count is now understood, etc etc. Of course now we've got lots of people using one of the 1970s throwback architectures with many of its disadvantages and bad decisions still intact, but that's another matter. Right, guys, but when I spoke of "progress" in hardware, I was NOT speaking of cleaner architectures, but of greater speeds in the same old architectures, so that bad coding isn't as evident. Heck, if ONLY the world had moved to the Motorola 6809 when it was first available, it would have provided impetus to continue to improve microcomputer architectures, rather than just pouring more silicon into a bad (or at least primitive) original design. I think this point has reached consensus here. I *ALWAYS* prefer the elegant method over the brute force method. Just don't forget that the brute force method DOES work, though... and is often cheaper and easier. Peace, Warren From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 24 19:44:22 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:44:22 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net>, <49F1445A.22543.42329272@cclist.sydex.com>, <1240575393.9239.2.camel@pc004.cs.york.ac.uk> <49F18261.13945.4324DD3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49F25CE6.8090703@sbcglobal.net> Rick Bensene wrote: >>> http://www.jfc.org.uk/files/westworld.png >>> > Chuck wrote: > >> No, this one looks to be different. In particular, that tape >> cartridge sticking out of the top section (technology that hadn't >> been invented yet) and the bottom section is differently constructed >> (note how the CDC keyboard forms a "lip" on the front of the machine, >> where the Westworld gizmo seems to use a different mounting system. >> Note the ventilation slots on the bottom of the machine--the >> Westworld ones do not extend as far up the side. >> >> It's something else, quite possibly a calculator. Perhaps Rick >> Bensene will recognize it. I have the CDC 6600 ad on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/ads/cdc6600_sa_12_65.jpg It really looks like the westworld one except for the tape cartridge. Possibly someone just wanted the nice display and the rest was used for the prop with the display panel filled in. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 24 20:38:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:38:18 -0700 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49F25CE6.8090703@sbcglobal.net> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net>, , <49F25CE6.8090703@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49F2071A.26851.452B4BEE@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2009 at 17:44, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > It really looks like the westworld one except for the tape cartridge. > Possibly someone just wanted the nice display and the rest was used > for the prop with the display panel filled in. Yeah, the key arrangement is the giveaway. I wonder if it's the same one that was in "Soylent Green"? Whatever happens to these old props anyway? I remember all of those IBM 1620 consoles from 'The Forbin Project" and the CDC 3000-series "green glass" peripheral cabinets. They'd probably fetch a pretty penny today... --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 24 20:53:18 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:53:18 -0600 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:38:18 -0700. <49F2071A.26851.452B4BEE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <49F2071A.26851.452B4BEE at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Whatever happens to these old props anyway? I think they go into storage and get revived/recycled as needed. For instance, SAGE slices have appeared on recent shows such as Lost. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 24 21:34:45 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:34:45 -0400 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200904242234.45957.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 24 April 2009, Jim Battle wrote: > Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she > said it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she > needed some equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at > home. It was far from simple. > > http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/episode/view.do?episodePk.pkValue= >8067618 > > Yes, that is a FET, not bipolar. If you have some links for making > simple bipolar transistors, please supply some. It will make for > some interesting reading. I do believe that you have pasted the wrong link... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Apr 25 01:35:14 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:35:14 -0400 Subject: San Diego Wondering Message-ID: <8CB93872006FAC8-670-20BA@FWM-D12.sysops.aol.com> My PDP-11 is so lonely out here in Las Vegas, it has been sneaking out of the house at night. I've had to drag it out of at least two casinos already. I knew I should have never compiled that blackjack program. ;-( From evan at snarc.net Sat Apr 25 01:43:43 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:43:43 -0400 Subject: San Diego Wondering In-Reply-To: <8CB93872006FAC8-670-20BA@FWM-D12.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB93872006FAC8-670-20BA@FWM-D12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <49F2B11F.5080603@snarc.net> > My PDP-11 is so lonely out here in Las Vegas, > it has been sneaking out of the house at night. > > I've had to drag it out of at least two casinos already. > > I knew I should have never compiled that blackjack program. ;-( Shhh! We didn't tell our PDP-8 that Atlantic City is only an hour away. :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 25 01:50:47 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:50:47 -0700 Subject: Silicon Genesis: Interviews References: <49F0AB4E.1080502@bitsavers.org> <49F1D2D2.2090500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49F2B2C7.EB86856D@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > If you can find it, take a look at an article that just came out in > the spring 2009 issue of Invention & Technology called "Long Live the > Vacuum Tube!" by Mara Vatz. It has amazing "facts" in it like: > > "The basic structure of a vacuum tube is simple: two pieces of metal > separated by nothingness, a vacuum. One piece, the cathode, is heated, > which compels more electrons to leave its confines, or "evaporate", than > would happen at room temperature. The other piece, the anode, is not > heated. The temperature disparity between the two causes electrons > evaporating from the heated anode to travel across the vacuum to the > unheated cathode, but not the other way around." > > and.. > > "Transistors perform essentially the same function, only on a far > smaller scale. But while vacuum tubes have nothing between their two > pieces of metal for an electron to latch onto, transistors are made > of nonconducting ceramic material, which isn't as clean as a vacuum". Well, there we have it! - a concise technical explanation of why tube audio amps sound better then transistor amps. > This is from a book published by >> MIT PRESS << > called "Falling for Science: Objects in Mind" > > I was hoping this was an April issue, but it appears it is a real article. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 25 01:50:16 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:50:16 +0200 Subject: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <49F183F6.24948.432B0AE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49EF5488.15548.3AA1AF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <49F074A9.6919.3F074574@cclist.sydex.com> <20090424094107.7ebecb2b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <49F183F6.24948.432B0AE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090425085016.40de657b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:18:46 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > A PC isn't a "real" computer? PeeCees are no "real" computers. PeeCees are a pile of cheap junk. At least when compared to proper personal computers like e.g. Sun, HP or DEC workstations or even a Mac. But this gets religious now. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 25 02:09:59 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:09:59 -0700 Subject: equip as movie props / was Re: CDC Calculator References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net>, , <49F25CE6.8090703@sbcglobal.net> <49F2071A.26851.452B4BEE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49F2B748.C02A7E9C@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Whatever happens to these old props anyway? I remember all of those > IBM 1620 consoles from 'The Forbin Project" and the CDC 3000-series > "green glass" peripheral cabinets. They'd probably fetch a pretty > penny today... I've seen a few pieces of equipment that had been turned into movie props: completely gutted so only the visible exterior esthetics were in any sense intact. Sometimes it was done to reduce weight to make them easier to manoeuver, or they were filled with xmas lights or some such. One never knows, but I wouldn't anticipate much if something had been through a movie prop phase during it's existence. From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Apr 25 02:25:39 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:25:39 -0700 Subject: PCs for "real" work? (was RE: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965) Message-ID: For me, the decision wasn't about Windows vs. whatever else. It was cheap, crappy commoditized PC hardware. For years, I'd upgraded my home desktop machine at such time as I wanted some new toy that wasn't supported on the existing hardware, or I felt I needed more performance/resources/heating. :-) That would happen, on average, every two years or so. Over the past year, I tried to upgrade three times, to be foiled by hardware failures each time. The last motherboard would not even boot up an OS. These weren't cheap bargain-table motherboards, either - they were from reputable vendors, midrange in their price ranges. (I don't need insane gamer perf features.) One burned up, one had quirky, fatal flaws (couldn't detect more than one graphics adapter) and one just never got off the dime. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid of hardware. I hack deep into hardware both for a living and as a hobby. But if I'm going to spend time hacking hardware, it should be at least twenty years old - in other words, I should be doing it because it's FUN! Then, when I need to see if Bitsavers (thank you!) or Google can help me dig out some obscure fact or figure, I want my desktop to be a reliable appliance. It should Just Work. That's how I ended up with Macs. It's not the OS, although I do like the idea of Unix under the hood rather than a compromised derivation of VMS. It's the hardware. It's the integration. It's the appliance-like nature that, I must admit, I ridiculed for years. But when I want to check my email or Google a part number, my Macs always work. Of course, not to be a complete conformist :-) I don't have an Intel-(de)based Mac in the house. I'm typing this on a PowerBook G4, and my main desktop is a pair of dual G4 PowerMacs, each running two monitors and sharing mouse and keyboard through Synergy. (One of these days, I'm going to improve their integration so it looks like multimon a la Xinerama.) If they weren't so stinkin' expensive (even with being four years obsolete), I'd have G5s, but the G4s are just fine for email, etc. If I can't do it on my Macs, I probably don't need to do it. Of course, I'm planning to rebuild my VAX 4000/300, and I plan to put SMTP on it this time. I know VMS will always get me my email.... Cheers -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz [jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de] Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965 On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:18:46 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > A PC isn't a "real" computer? PeeCees are no "real" computers. PeeCees are a pile of cheap junk. At least when compared to proper personal computers like e.g. Sun, HP or DEC workstations or even a Mac. But this gets religious now. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mike at fenz.net Sat Apr 25 02:53:27 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:53:27 +1200 Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F2C177.5030301@fenz.net> Well, the Apple monitor is running fine now. Details below for anyone who's interested. > The most basic test is to remembner that a transistor has 2 diode > junctions, one between base and emitter, the other between base and > collector (no, you _can't_ make a transistor from 2 diodes!). So you can > test each of those junctions as a diode using either an analogue > ohmmeter, or more likely these days the diode-test range of a DMM. > > I'll assume you're using the latter. Desolder the transistor form the > circuit and connect the meter, on the diode test range, between the base > and emitter. Then try it again with the proes the other way round. One > way should read about 0.7V (forward biased Si junction), the other should > be 'overrange'. Then do the same tests with the meter conencted both ways > between the base and collector terminals of the transistor. Again, one > way should be 0.7V, the other way 'overrange'. > > If either junction measures 'overrange' both ways round, it's open. If it > reads 0V (or 0.7V) both ways round it's shorted. > > This will actually find a lot of defective transistors. Most failures end > up with one of the junctions open-circuit. > First thing I did was remove the transistor I initially suspected and do the test as above. My multimeter proved a bit strange - it read approximately 1000 (unspecified units...) in one direction for both 'diodes', and out of range for the other. That seemed like it might be reasonable, but I figured I'd try replacing it anyway. The replacement showed exactly the same behaviour - no great surprise. So, I decided to look further upstream, and actually take note of the waveform voltages. There was something very odd; the input from the blanking pulse generator was about 10V peak to peak, fed to the input of the amplifier via a voltage divider, but the signal at the base of the first transistor was only about 50mV peak to peak (not what I expected given the divider's values). That made no sense - I checked the resistors, and then pulled that transistor and checked it. It looked exactly the same as the first. Next, I checked the waveform at the amplifier's input without the transistor fitted, and it was much higher voltage. And more surprisingly, I had what appeared to be a perfect picture. I figured I just couldn't see the re-scan lines due to the fairly bright picture. Loading different software to get a mostly black screen, the lines were obvious. So I replaced that transistor, the lines disappeared, and the monitor once again has a very nice picture. I'm very pleased with that success - thanks to everyone who offered suggestions, especially Tony! > If a transistor passed this test, you need more complex equipment to test > it. Basically you bpass a small current trhough the base-emitter juction > and see how it affects the collector current -- in other words you use > the transisorr as am amplifier. Real enthuisats have a thing called a > 'curve tracer' which does this automatically and plots one of a range of > voltage-current or current-current traces on a CRT. But I find my Tekky > 575 (such an instrument) rarely gets used when I'm faultfinding, the > defective transsitor can be found with simpler tests. > In my case, perhaps a tool like that would have found the bad transistor? > I don;t recognise that sort of number at all. US bipolar transistors tend > to have numbers starting 2N, European ones are things like 'BCxxx or > BFxxx' and Japanese ones start 2SA..2SD (often the '2S' is omitted, but > you still start with a letter). > > My suggestions is to look at the maximum voltage in this part of the > circuit (is it just 12V'? and to pick a small-signal transistor of the > right polarity (NPN or PNP). The well-known 2N3904 (NPN) and 2N3906 (PNP) > would proalby do. > In this case, I had some random BC547s and BC557s floating around - these are what I used to replace the odd transistors in this monitor. Now, if only I could get one of my three faulty Apple II Pluses running again... I've tried that before with no success. Mike. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Apr 25 03:10:14 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In the Bay Area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <794258.32277.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, William Donzelli wrote: > I will be in town generally > from 3 MAY > thru 7 MAY, and would be interested in meeting with anyone > that would > like to show off their collections, or even just meet for > dinner and a > beer. I will be available if you'd like to get together. You might want to check out the events calendar at CHM. It looks like you'll be in town for the event on the evening of the 5th, though the "50th Anniversary of the Integrated Circuit" events continue on the 8th. --Bill From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 24 14:33:42 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:33:42 +0200 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F21416.50106@softjar.se> micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:48 am > Subject: Re: pdp11/70 front panel frame >> > If I remember right, the RDC panel reused the 11/70 panel frame, >> > by the way. >> > > [...] > > You remember right. I was a computer operator on an 11/70 in the late 70's. When the DEC service technician came by to switch out the standard front panel and replace it with the remote console, only the panel was replaced, not the frame. > > Should have kept it. It was pristine... What? You mean that DEC took the original 11/70 front panel? That's interesting. I have two RDC panels (as well as two original fronts), and both of the RDC panels had some sticker or text saying "Property of DEC. Must be returned if removed from contract." (or something like that) implying that the customer didn't own the RDC panel, and the original front panel were to be reused when the machine went off service. So they couldn't very well take that panel. It was the property of the customer. I thought that was standard procedure. Interesting... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 24 14:47:12 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:47:12 +0200 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> Jim Battle wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > ... >> > It isn't difficult, and it isn't >> > expensive (well, compared to a transistor I guess it might be, but we're >> > still talking close to no money). > > Maybe it is possible to build a transistor that has poor gain, low > bandwidth, and poor stability, probably like the first transistors made. > > Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she said > it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she needed some > equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. It was > far from simple. > > http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/episode/view.do?episodePk.pkValue=8067618 > > Yes, that is a FET, not bipolar. If you have some links for making > simple bipolar transistors, please supply some. It will make for some > interesting reading. > > I recall reading how IBM spent a lot of money and a lot of brainpower > building their own transistors back in the early days. If it really was > all that simple, I doubt that IBM would have wrestled with it as much as > they did. I purposely picked bipolar since they're easy. I haven't looked at what it would take to make a FET. Don't think it's that relevant to reply with stuff about FETs to a post about bipolars. :-) >> > All it requires is two diodes. That's >> > all it is, really. > > If you wire two diodes in series (PN->NP), it isn't the same as a > transistor (PNP), at all. It is. A PNP is just the same thing as a PN-+-NP. The things left that vary is the areas between the PN and NP layers, which would be equal if you just jused two diodes, but usually are dissimilar in a transistor. That can be solved by using different diodes, or putting two in parallel. What else? Yeah, the amount of doping is also relevant. All this ends up to is that different transistors have different specs (just as different diodes do). You'd hardly replace a transistor with a couple of diodes on a card anyway, since it would be so much trickier soldering wise, and possible space wise anyway, not even considering characteristics. But that don't change the fact that you get a working transistor with just two diodes. >> > A transistor (and now I'm just talking about bipolar transistors, since >> > it's the easiest, and they are very common) is extremely simply to >> > understand and build. > > I've heard of people disassembling a diode and making a point contact > transistor, but that is already leveraging a lot of technology that put > the $.10 diode in your hand to begin with. Well, I did say that you'd have to use diodes. If you consider it cheating to use diodes, then I plead guilty. It's very difficult to make a transistor if you're only allowed to use copper, aluminium and silicon. However, all this was just an exercise in sidetracking. The real point was that something built with transistors can be repaired by just replacing the transistor. A very standard, small and cheap component that you probably still can get a hundred years from now. A graphics card will never be at that situation. If it's broke, you replace it. Ten years from now, that will not even be an option, since those graphics cards are no longer manufactured, and even the bus which they interface to is probably obsolete, meaning no other graphic card can be found either. And it is not possible to repair it, since it's just a bunch of highly intergrated ICs on it, which you cannot obtain, nor diagnose which one of them actually is busted. They are also close to impossible to remove. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 16:56:48 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice Message-ID: I purchased an 820-II from eBay, but the seller did a horrible packing job and it arrived with the case completely smashed. Incredibly enough, the CRT was not shattered and once I diassembled it and spread things out, it nominally fires up. I get the monitor sign-on and a beep, but no keyboard response at all. I've already tried reseating everything on the system board and fixed a bad solder joint on the crystal for the keyboard MPU. No luck. I have some schematics from the web, but they are extremely fuzzy and hard to read. Can anyone help with theory of operation for an 820 keyboard? I gather that it's a parallel data interface, but past that I'm a bit in the dark. I should mention that I'm running without a disk drive. The seller "lost" it and I have the carcass of another on the way from a kind cctech group member. Still, I would think there'd be some response to keyboard input without the drive on line. Steve -- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 08:46:14 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:46:14 -0400 Subject: equip as movie props / was Re: CDC Calculator In-Reply-To: <49F2B748.C02A7E9C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <115F20BB-F5C1-405C-961E-43E26FFF4861@comcast.net> <49F25CE6.8090703@sbcglobal.net> <49F2071A.26851.452B4BEE@cclist.sydex.com> <49F2B748.C02A7E9C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I've seen a few pieces of equipment that had been turned into movie props: > completely gutted so only the visible exterior esthetics were in any sense > intact. Sometimes it was done to reduce weight to make them easier to > manoeuver, or they were filled with xmas lights or some such. One never knows, > but I wouldn't anticipate much if something had been through a movie prop phase > during it's existence. Very true. I have had quite a few things that were once props. A couple years ago I purchased all the electronics from that DeNiro bomb "The Good Shepherd" - mostly radios and lab equipment. Except for a few key pieces the prop guys wanted untouched, some equipment was crudely modified - and I mean CRUDELY - if DeNiro wanted more lights. Likewise, I purchased one of the Thinking Machines CM-5s that was used in "Jurrasic Park". Contrary to what the movie fansites say, the things were not real CM-5s. They were built up on CM frames made for machine orders that were never fulfilled. The triple wide racks were empty, except for one of the shelves had a power supply installed to run the blinkenlights. Even the blinkenlight panels were fooled with - mounted in non standard ways, with a good deal of the rows of lights covered with black gaffers tape. Apparently there were too many lights! -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 09:34:57 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:34:57 -0400 Subject: San Diego Wondering Message-ID: <0ADFDF5225634ABCBD190A57E20C83F8@andrewdesktop> Am I the only classic computer enthusiast left in San Diego? [snip] If so, drop me a line. Don't mean to sound needy - but it's lonely down here. San Diego was a major epicenter of the development of the S-100 CP/M computer. We're all getting older but it can't be that of 3 million people I'm the only one left?!? Vern Wright -----REPLY----- Vern, I think the focus of S-100 system development has moved away from the local area and is now more of an internet phenomenon. CCTALK, Vintage-Computer.com forums, comp.os.cpm, is where a lot of activity takes place. There are vintage computer festivals and ham radio conventions where hobbyists meet but I think the bulk of the communication is via the internet. If you'd like to see active S-100 development take place once again, have you considered starting a home brew hobbyist S-100 project? I started a home brew computing project a couple of years ago (N8VEM) and it has been quite successful. There is a lot of interest and all sorts of people have built their own systems. I've had ideas of expanding the N8VEM system into S-100 for some time now and am building a hobbyist S-100 backplane. With the availability of low cost EDA tools and PCB fabrication its possible for home brew hobbyists to make their home brew systems available for everyone. Maybe if S-100 hobbyists would design and manufacture a completely open and free system similar to the N8VEM. Recently, a hobbyist made a completely new S-100 prototype board. I recall others (Dan Roganti?) designing new S-100 boards months ago too. For example, start with a backplane, another hobbyist makes a linear or SMPSU power supply PCB, another a CPU board, yet another builds a SRAM board, someone else a serial UART board, etc. Many hands makes light work so maybe it could happen. I am optimistic its possible although I am aware of the many hobbyist projects that have been attempted on CCTALK. I think it would be fun and might recapture some of that "lightning in a bottle" magic from the early home brew microcomputer community. Andrew Lynch From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 25 09:52:43 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:52:43 -0700 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> References: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> Message-ID: > From: bqt at softjar.se ---snip--- >> Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she said >> it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she needed some >> equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. It was >> far from simple. >> ---snip--- > > I purposely picked bipolar since they're easy. I haven't looked at what > it would take to make a FET. Don't think it's that relevant to reply > with stuff about FETs to a post about bipolars. :-) No, actually the FETs are easier to make than a junction transistor. > >>>> All it requires is two diodes. That's >>>> all it is, really. >> >> If you wire two diodes in series (PN->NP), it isn't the same as a >> transistor (PNP), at all. > > It is. A PNP is just the same thing as a PN-+-NP. No, it is not a transistor. It is just two junctions that will not show any transistor action. Your understanding of how transistors work is flawed. If you put two diodes back to back, it will not have any gain. This is because ti current carrier will be absorbed into the conductors. The transistor works because the current is carried in a material that the current carrier can exist for a long time, like a static charge on an insulator yet move around when a field is applied to it, like a conductor. This is the important trait of a semi conductor that makes the transistor work. Now, it is important to realize that when we say that the current carrier can exit for some length of time without combining, we are still talking about very small dimensions. In a transistor, the emitter junction and collector junction have to be very close togather or the carriers that are injected into the base region will be combined to easily with the major current carriers in the base region and just be base current. If they are close enough that the injected carrier can get into the collectors depletion region and the collector is properly biased relative to the base, it will become collector current. This all depends on the physical closeness of the emitter junction to the collector junction. Since FETs are a surface effect, they are easier to create. The first commercial transistors were made by carefully grinding the base material down until it was very thin and then diffusing the collector and emitter junctions into the surfaces from the two sides. It wasn't until later that it was realized that one could diffuse both junctions from the surface that a more practical transistor was created. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 25 11:08:37 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:08:37 -0300 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar References: <20090425124514.GA78557@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <1c7301c9c5c0$9cec89f0$477419bb@desktaba> > The first three volumes of the Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar books are now > available for online viewing (but not downloading) at Google Books. > These books collect Steve Ciarcia's 70s/80s Byte columns - lots of > interesting stuff. There is a downloadable version at http://www.4shared.com/dir/14813159/7e7c16f9/sharing.html I'd like to be advised about the legality of sharing this link. Steve is still alive and is a great author, but the books are long out of print. Seems grayish area to me, but since they are avaiable on google books, why not in PDF? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 25 11:45:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:45:15 -0400 Subject: pdp11/70 front panel frame In-Reply-To: <49F21416.50106@softjar.se> References: <49F21416.50106@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> > If I remember right, the RDC panel reused the 11/70 panel >>> frame, > by the way. >>> > >> [...] >> You remember right. I was a computer operator on an 11/70 in the >> late 70's. When the DEC service technician came by to switch out >> the standard front panel and replace it with the remote console, >> only the panel was replaced, not the frame. >> Should have kept it. It was pristine... > > What? You mean that DEC took the original 11/70 front panel? > That's interesting. > I have two RDC panels (as well as two original fronts), and both of > the RDC panels had some sticker or text saying "Property of DEC. > Must be returned if removed from contract." (or something like > that) implying that the customer didn't own the RDC panel, and the > original front panel were to be reused when the machine went off > service. So they couldn't very well take that panel. It was the > property of the customer. > > I thought that was standard procedure. Interesting... It was indeed the property of the customer, and DEC FS should've left it onsite. This was explained to me by a former DEC FS person. Also, of two 11/70 systems that I rescued that had RDC panels, both of the real front panels were left onsite. Those systems also had their MJ11 core memory subsystems upgraded to MK11 solid-state memory, and the MJ11 subsystems were left (disconnected) in the racks, again because they were customer property. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 25 11:49:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:49:08 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <1c7301c9c5c0$9cec89f0$477419bb@desktaba> References: <20090425124514.GA78557@silme.pair.com> <1c7301c9c5c0$9cec89f0$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <455385B4-5357-4D27-BAA4-F020CCFF28B3@neurotica.com> On Apr 25, 2009, at 12:08 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> The first three volumes of the Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar books are now >> available for online viewing (but not downloading) at Google Books. >> These books collect Steve Ciarcia's 70s/80s Byte columns - lots of >> interesting stuff. > > There is a downloadable version at > http://www.4shared.com/dir/14813159/7e7c16f9/sharing.html > > I'd like to be advised about the legality of sharing this link. > Steve is still alive and is a great author, but the books are long > out of print. Seems grayish area to me, but since they are avaiable > on google books, why not in PDF? A friend of mine, Bill Bradford, had to get permission to scan and release a PDF of one of Steve's other books (Build Your Own Z80 Computer, a fantastic book) and it took quite a while. I believe Andrew Lynch worked with him on that project. I'd say it's not a gray area at all; it can't be shared without permission. That said, those books aren't difficult to find; they show up on eBay with some frequency. They are worth their weight in gold. I've had the first two volumes since I was a kid, and gradually got the rest of them over a couple of years as they were released. I cherish those books. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ray at arachelian.com Sat Apr 25 12:10:16 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:10:16 -0400 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> References: <49F0C9B8.6060003@databasics.us> <49F14D5F.4060601@databasics.us> Message-ID: <49F343F8.1090800@arachelian.com> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Hello, All, > > I'm glad my first post on this topic started some discussion. I'm > less glad that I apparently didn't do a very good job of > communicating. Let me clear up a bit, if I may. > > First, I'm not a Luddite, or troglodyte, or anything similar. I love > using the finest, newest devices of all kinds, including computers. > And, while I like playing with the old computers, and fixing them, > nothing beats screaming speed in a personal computer. I tend to agree with this sentiment, I do love having old machines around, but I use the most modern machine I own/can access for daily work. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate the Lisas, Commodores, or old Macs in my collection, nor does it mean I don't use them often. That said, some machines I rarely turn on because I don't want to risk harming them, and in those cases, I find using emulators for them a better choice. i.e. the 5M profile hard drives on my Lisa, or the Xerox Star's floppy and hard drives - after all, the most common components to fail are mechanical ones. But if you're thinking in terms of common things to do, perhaps those don't need a lot of CPU power (i.e. word processing email, and surfing the web - though recently between heavy javascript and flash sites, you do need the CPU power.) If on the other hand, you do something a bit more interesting, like development, and find yourself compiling the same code dozens of times a day, it pays to have a faster machine - that doesn't mean you have to run the evil OS from Redmond, nor does it mean it has to have a CPU from intel, but you can consider in terms of efficiency. MIPS (or perhaps GIPS these days) per watt. While both my Xerox Star and my Macbook can be used to write something in a word processor, and both have a very nice desktop, my Macbook doesn't require its own 20AMP circuit. And if a hard drive dies, a 2.5" SATA drive is fairly cheap and easy to replace. How about the drive in the Star? And should I need to print that document, where do I find a printer for the Star? Doesn't mean I love the Star any less. > > Teo Zenios writes: > > You can fix anything sold today if you want to spend a bunch of > money for equipment to deal with surface mount chips (BGA type > equipment is not cheap). You can get spare parts (or boards to > desolder parts from) at a recycler or ebay. This is very true, and is one of the costs of modern electronics. The other part is while the high end items are expensive at the start (say before the warranty starts to run out), they can be had for less than half the price in working order a year or two out, once they're used. And perhaps less if they're sold as non working. So it's not too bad in all cases. > My background is as a National Institute of Standards and Technology > Calibration Technician. Call me fixed in my ways if you like, but I > prefer finding a (small) failed component, getting a replacement for > under a dollar, and spending an hour or two troubleshooting and fixing > equipment. I no longer have the spare space to keep a few dead copies > of all my live equipment. I never cared much for cannibalizing > equipment. It seems somehow... sacreligious. Where you're able to this, by all means, that's wonderful. And as you note, not everything is easily serviceable this way. It's just the reality of things. When each transistor is microscopic, how would you fix just that one? And when it's part of an SMT chip with hundreds of pins, how would you replace it when it was surface-mount soldered onto a board? Is any electronics factory going to care that we'd want them socketed if it'll cost them $1-$10 more per chip, or are they going to care that the consumer and maker wants them as cheap as possible and the maker wants them to fail the day after the warranty expires? (And the maker wants them to be as proprietary as possible so they can control their market?) > > Now, if I find the bad component, it's likely to be a $50 chip, > compared with a new $60 board replacement. While it gets things > working again, it's just not as much fun as it was to find a part that > was close to free to replace, and replace that part... a personal > taste issue, that. I didn't expect I'd need to explain that mind-set > HERE, of all places, though. Ya, well, you know what they say about common sense. :-) A lot of this boils down to how practical something is. Collecting and repairing historically important computers isn't the same as reviving a somewhat modern but obsolete, by a couple of years, computer. I'm going to care far less about throwing out a 20G IDE drive instead of attempting to repair it (even if I could), versus an old 5MB 5.25" full height MFM drive (which I might be able to.) Perhaps in 10 years the 20G IDE drives will be scarce and have some sort of collectible value to them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stockpile the dead ones in hopes for that to happen. Sure, someone out there today will see an opportunity, and might stockpile them now when they can be had for cheap. You can be certain that in 10 years we'll be complaining about why they charge $100 for them on ebay and how ebay sucks so much and how these drives shouldn't cost so much when for $100 you could have a 200TB drive... All while secretly kicking ourselves for not keeping more of those around. :-D But such is the life of a collector. > > I don't want to go back to the old days when machines were slow and > unreliable, when you had to fix a machine just to be able to use it. > > > Neither do I. On the other hand, I tend to think hardware progress > has been TOO fast, and that software, because of the speed of the > hardware, is immensely sloppy and inefficient, to a degree I find > amazing. Some years back, I was looking at a setup for a Microsoft > programming environment. It came on five CDs, IIRC, and I couldn't > help thinking of Turbo Pascal for CP/M, wich came on a single floppy, > and had an editor, compiler, and debugger in about 56 K of programming > space. The efficiency factor difference is stunning. I believe that > a bit more time at each 'watermark' of hardware progress would result > in tightening of software efficiency to improve product performance, > rather than just waiting for the next generation of PC hardware to > hide one's poorly-written code. Again, that might just be me... Not at all. You be certain a lot of this stuff is grossly inefficient. The current "in" trend is to use things like garbage collection instead of doing your own memory management, and it's also to use dynamic languages which are really easy and fun to work in, but are extremely difficult to compile (i.e. ruby - and I'm not knocking them by saying this). So if you think of a popular application that's likely to be used by hundreds of thousands of people, the trade off is that it costs the programmer less time to spit out a piece of code, but what they don't look at is how hundreds of thousands of people now have an application that runs several orders of magnitude slower than it could, and requires several dozens of times more memory. Why? Because the industry loves having replaceable programmers, kids who have passed some introductory course in Java and churn out whatever the spec requires. This isn't to say that there aren't really good programmers out there anymore than can code low to the machine, (you'll find those writing device drivers for example), and perhaps those will get paid maybe 2x-3x more than the replaceable Java kids that corporations love so much, but IMHO, what they produce is worth several thousand times more, yet, they'll never get paid several thousand times more. That said, Java, and most other languages have a plethora of libraries available to them, so they don't have to reinvent the wheel (quicksort, linked lists, dynamic arrays, etc.) so for the EXPERIENCED programmer, it can be a highly efficient and powerful tool. But that's the trouble, most places are set up with very few experienced programmers and hordes of code monkeys. So that's how you wind up with say things like Office Suites that take up a whole DVD and have billions of unused features full of bugs that few people need. As long as the rest of the corporate world continues to use the bloated inefficient tools, they remain the standard and everyone wants a document in that format. It's a self-sustaining ecosystem. So far no one's complained that I've used OpenOffice to edit spreadsheets (even at work) or text documents as long as I export them in that non-native format they seem to think is the best thing since sliced bread. Infact, they never even notice it unless I happen to trip on some bug, and even then do they rarely care. IMHO: if you remove all the ugly inconsistencies in the Java language, fix up the syntax a bit more, get rid of the garbage collector and have a really good optimizing recompiler that spits out native code, you might be able to write very efficient code that would run very nicely on all platforms. Just my $0.02. > > There are millions of people driving cars that have no idea how to > do anything other then put gas in it and maybe change the oil. Why > should computer (another tool like a car) be any different today? > > > Think about what you're saying... There ARE people who like to futz > around with their cars, like I like to futz with my computer. All the > people like that I know are not happy about computer control of the > engine, as it makes it difficult to the point of near impossibility > for an individual to work on their own car, and expect good results. > That *IS* like a car, isn't it? There is something to be said for > simplicity enough to be within one's skill set to repair with objects > at hand. One of my friend's father was stranded in the desert with > car trouble, and used a couple of gum foils, a paperclip, and a couple > of rubber bands to patch it up until they could get to a service > station. How cool is that? Today, unless someone is packing a spare > CPU for his model car, one would be coyote bait in the same situation. > > We have not progressed smoothly -- rather, each area has gone off on > its own, totally separate from all other areas. I could get behind a > technology base where you could carry a few spare processors, and > program them with your cellphone to run your car, or your PC, or your > GPS unit, just by loading the correct program into it. But, nothing > is even similar, let alone identical today. I can't help but think we > took a wrong turn dictated to us by hyper-speed progress. "The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed" -- William Gibson. Somehow he managed to say all that in 11 words instead of two paragraphs. :-) Damn, I wish there were more writers like him out there. A lot of this is that the tools are kept hidden. The dealers have access the stuff the public doesn't, and even non-dealer mechs. This is on purpose to lock people into their market, and perhaps its expensive, not just because of the lock-in but perhaps because it'll incite the car owner to trade in their old car for a newer one, and thus feed the system more money. The fix would be to create an open source car manufacturer, where everything is accessible and well documented. But good luck with that. Still the latest Ubuntu was out just last week, and I gotta say, it's quite impressive. Maybe there's hope for this idea too. Maybe Mr. Shuttleworth can buy a bankrupt car factory and start it up. :-D > Efficient progress would have dictated that we make the most of a much > smaller number of available parts, each with multiple uses. Is that > so hard? Somehow, I think not. And the benefits would be amazing. > Hardware leaping ahead of software has given us a dictatorial > Microsoft, and stifled the development of software better than Windows > for many years. Slower hardware development (25% improvement per > year, perhaps) would have forced competition on software vendors, to > the detriment of Microsoft. It would be interesting to compare the > two, but the world doesn't have a "control." But you need to remember that Microsoft is what drives Intel and other hardware manufacturers to improve so quickly. By producing bloatware, they generate a market for Intel to create and sell faster chips. If Microsoft goes away, Moore's law will slow down significantly. (Perhaps something else will replace MSFT's role in this, but the idea stands.) As for smaller sets of parts that do lots of things, sure, that's wonderful for the maker, but would they sell them that way? However, this depression we're in now (and yes, that's what it really is) has perhaps woken MSFT up that they can optimize a bit - or so people who I know that have played with Windows 7 have told me. (Disclosure: I've not played with either Vista nor Windows 7, so this is 2nd hand info.). We're also seeing a lot of interest (but not surprisingly, few sales) in "Net Books". (Let's see do I plunk down $300 to buy a tiny tiny notebook computer that can't do very much other than surf the web and has little storage, or do I buy a used/refurb full sized notebook for the same price that I can do everything I'd need?) Now that cell phones have killed off PDA's, perhaps the netbooks are for people who find cell phones not as useful, and wish for something bigger, but don't really want a full sized notebook? Even so, I see something like 30 posts a day on NewtonTalk, so the PDA might be dead in the eyes of industry, but not the need for one. From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 12:20:36 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <1c7301c9c5c0$9cec89f0$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <906783.25569.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> We'll see what Steve has to say about it. I think he has those books for sale, doesn't he? I used to have my secretary xerox his columns (no, I didn't cut out of my Byte magazines, though that collection has long since been deep-sixed) but I don't know whether I still have those copies - probably "somewhere" but I'll be damned if I know where that "somewhere" is. I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my workshop a few days ago I saw his EEG project waiting to be revived. But there is so much to do.... Vern Wright --- On Sat, 4/25/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: > From: Alexandre Souza > Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Saturday, April 25, 2009, 9:08 AM > > The first three volumes of the Ciarcia's Circuit > Cellar books are now > > available for online viewing (but not downloading) at > Google Books. > > These books collect Steve Ciarcia's 70s/80s Byte > columns - lots of > > interesting stuff. > > There is a downloadable version at > > http://www.4shared.com/dir/14813159/7e7c16f9/sharing.html > > I'd like to be advised about the legality of sharing > this link. Steve is still alive and is a great author, but > the books are long out of print. Seems grayish area to me, > but since they are avaiable on google books, why not in PDF? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 25 12:51:17 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 10:51:17 -0700 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: References: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> Message-ID: Hi Transistors today are made with various steps of masking, etching, diffusing and depositing. Most all the steps could be done at home with reasonable chemistry except the photo graphic masking. There is an alternate method for doing the masking and also the etching. For small runs, we used an electron microscope to expose the mask material but even that only removes the photo masking step. One still needs to deal with the etching. There is a method of combining the masking and etching. One can use a FIB machine. These are similar to an electron microscope but use ions instead of electron. Diffusion steps can be done at home. I recall doing this for home made solar cells, with one of those Bell Tel. kits, when I was a kid. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 13:20:28 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:20:28 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar Message-ID: <064BE18EDA0041D1BDAD3AABF35EB025@andrewdesktop> We'll see what Steve has to say about it. I think he has those books for sale, doesn't he? I used to have my secretary xerox his columns (no, I didn't cut out of my Byte magazines, though that collection has long since been deep-sixed) but I don't know whether I still have those copies - probably "somewhere" but I'll be damned if I know where that "somewhere" is. I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my workshop a few days ago I saw his EEG project waiting to be revived. But there is so much to do.... Vern Wright -----REPLY----- Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew computing tradition alive. http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer You can see the full description of the release statement on the first page. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 25 13:49:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:49:11 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <064BE18EDA0041D1BDAD3AABF35EB025@andrewdesktop> References: <064BE18EDA0041D1BDAD3AABF35EB025@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <49F2F8B7.6669.48DB1723@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2009 at 14:20, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online > publishing. I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both > writing it in the first place and also releasing it so as to help keep > the home brew computing tradition alive. Beyond the "Circuit Cellar" columns in Byte, let's not forget "Circuit Cellar INK". Some very tasty stuff there also. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 13:27:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:27:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Apr 24, 9 09:47:12 pm Message-ID: > > If you wire two diodes in series (PN->NP), it isn't the same as a > > transistor (PNP), at all. > > It is. A PNP is just the same thing as a PN-+-NP. In one sense it is, but I can assure you that if you connect 2 diodes together in this way (no matter what sort of diodes you use), you will not get a transistor. The resulting circuit will not show any current gain. IIRC, what you need is a sufficiently thin base region (the 'N' in the example you gave) that electron-hole recombination does not occur. You can't join 2 n-type pieces with a bit of wire and get this. > possible space wise anyway, not even considering characteristics. But > that don't change the fact that you get a working transistor with just > two diodes. I am not convinces. If you have got this to work, can you please tell me what sort of diodes you used, and I will try to recreate it (if I see it working on my bench, I'll be convinced!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 13:30:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:30:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F1C9AA.20422.443B4F97@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 24, 9 02:16:10 pm Message-ID: > It's even more frustrating when you're looking at some CPLD or PAL > that's gone south. You don't have the original part to reverse- > engineer, the manufacturer is unlikely to furnish a replacement or > even the programming for the part. Usually, this means that your > widget is junk. This is why I try to make backups of programmed parts while the device is still working. Of course some manufactures plow the protection fuse, so you can't easily read the device out (although for PALs, I believe it's always possible to deduce the logic equations with a bit of work without having to dump out the fuse map, there is no hidden internal state). A suprising number of classic computers, though, have unprotected PALs, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 13:52:29 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:52:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs for "real" work? (was RE: CDC Remote Calculator, circa 1965) In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Apr 25, 9 00:25:39 am Message-ID: > > For me, the decision wasn't about Windows vs. whatever else. It was cheap,= > crappy commoditized PC hardware. =20 I've avoided this by sticking to classic PC hardware that I have schematics of. Yes, I've found heardware problems with it, but at least it's built from chips I understand cand have data sheets on. So I can fix said prolems (and yes, I've had to piggyback chips and add kludgewires to get thins working properly). > > For years, I'd upgraded my home desktop machine at such time as I > wanted some new toy that wasn't supported on the existing hardware, or I I wonder how many of these new toys are actually necessary. I know that if I felt the need for things like this, I'd not try using them with any machine I depend on. In other words, if I wanted to run something (hardware or software) that needed a modern PC, I guess I'd get a modern PC for that alone, and keep the old classics for the important stuff. [...] > Now don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid of hardware. I hack deep into > hardware both for a living and as a hobby. But if I'm going to spend > time hacking hardware, it should be at least twenty years old - in other > words, I should be doing it because it's FUN! Then, when I need to see Agreed. And while I;ve bought things with the intention of modifying them as soon as I get them home, I sure am not happy if I buy a product and it doesn't work out of the box. It's even worse if there are no schematics and everyhting is heidden in ASICs (which I haven't a hope of understanding if the device doesn't work!) > if Bitsavers (thank you!) or Google can help me dig out some obscure > fact or figure, I want my desktop to be a reliable appliance. It should > Just Work. > > That's how I ended up with Macs. What put me off Macs was 2 main things (and this is going to turn into a religious war if I'm not careful) The first is the horrible (IMHO) hardware design of the Apple ][ (the last Apple product that I've seen official schematics for). It's arguale whether the Apple [] or the IBM PC is the worse design, they're both pretty dire actually. I've sene unofficial schematics of some early Macs, and I didn't like that much either. But the seocnd is the real reason. It's Apple's attitude that 'We know best. Do it our way'. QUite honestly, I know exaclty what I want, and I know how I want to do it. And if something gets in the way of that, I don't want it. The whole Mac philosophy is not what I want at all. [...] > etc. If I can't do it on my Macs, I probably don't need to do it. That's how I feel about my classics. People keep on telling me of things I can't do because I don't have a modern PC, and quite honestly, I don't want to do those things, so I'm not missing out at all. I'll get better sound from my old valved amplifiers than from any MP3 player, I'll get better pictures from my classic cameras than from any digitial one. I am one of these people who won't loose performance just to gain a little convenience... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 13:54:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:54:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: AppleColor RGB Monitor (IIGS) help? In-Reply-To: <49F2C177.5030301@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Apr 25, 9 07:53:27 pm Message-ID: > > Well, the Apple monitor is running fine now. Details below for anyone > who's interested. Excelelnt... > Now, if only I could get one of my three faulty Apple II Pluses running > again... I've tried that before with no success. Now I don haev the Apple ][ schematics to hand... What's the problem with these machines? It's highly likely they can be repaired. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 25 14:08:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:08:33 -0400 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CB94015-E32E-4DAC-AC05-3F153545E78F@neurotica.com> On Apr 25, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's even more frustrating when you're looking at some CPLD or PAL >> that's gone south. You don't have the original part to reverse- >> engineer, the manufacturer is unlikely to furnish a replacement or >> even the programming for the part. Usually, this means that your >> widget is junk. > > This is why I try to make backups of programmed parts while the > device is > still working. Of course some manufactures plow the protection > fuse, so > you can't easily read the device out (although for PALs, I believe > it's > always possible to deduce the logic equations with a bit of work > without > having to dump out the fuse map, there is no hidden internal state). A > suprising number of classic computers, though, have unprotected > PALs, etc. What about registered PALs? There are a great many of those around. Figuring out the transfer function of a black box of *sequential* logic isn't so trivial. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 25 14:10:16 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:10:16 -0300 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble References: Message-ID: <1d5701c9c5da$0eeb8bf0$477419bb@desktaba> > This is why I try to make backups of programmed parts while the device is > still working. Of course some manufactures plow the protection fuse, so > you can't easily read the device out (although for PALs, I believe it's > always possible to deduce the logic equations with a bit of work without > having to dump out the fuse map, there is no hidden internal state). A > suprising number of classic computers, though, have unprotected PALs, etc. A pal-cracker would be very useful here...I do pal reverse engineering by analysing the inputs and outputs of the device, and trying to devise a similar circuit (did it in many MSX "lost" products, for example the 2.0/2+ transformation kits from DDX, and now I'm trying to crack the GALs in the Sunrise IDE). Funny work, for an unemployed guy like me From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 14:43:56 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <064BE18EDA0041D1BDAD3AABF35EB025@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <484387.24824.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Thanks for the heads-up, Andrew. I well recall that. And thanks to Steve for making history available to all. Vern Wright --- On Sat, 4/25/09, Andrew Lynch wrote: > From: Andrew Lynch > Subject: RE: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, April 25, 2009, 11:20 AM > We'll see what Steve has to say about it. I think he has > those books for > sale, doesn't he? > > I used to have my secretary xerox his columns (no, I > didn't cut out of my > Byte magazines, though that collection has long since been > deep-sixed) but I > don't know whether I still have those copies - probably > "somewhere" but I'll > be damned if I know where that "somewhere" is. > > I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my > workshop a few days ago I saw > his EEG project waiting to be revived. > > But there is so much to do.... > > Vern Wright > > > > -----REPLY----- > > Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow > online publishing. > I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both > writing it in the > first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the > home brew computing > tradition alive. > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > > You can see the full description of the release statement > on the first page. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 15:09:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:09:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <6CB94015-E32E-4DAC-AC05-3F153545E78F@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 25, 9 03:08:33 pm Message-ID: > > it's > > always possible to deduce the logic equations with a bit of work > > without > > having to dump out the fuse map, there is no hidden internal state). A > > suprising number of classic computers, though, have unprotected > > PALs, etc. > > What about registered PALs? There are a great many of those > around. Figuring out the transfer function of a black box of > *sequential* logic isn't so trivial. :-( You can, of course get sequential logic with a non-registered PAL. The 16L8 has feedback terms (the outputs can be fed back into the AND array), so you can make flip-flops. But I stand by what I said. Actually, registered PALs are easier than 16L8s in some cases. Firstly, you can tristate the outputs, force logic levels onto them and clock the device. For a _PAL_ (although not a GAL), the feedback is taken from the pins, so yuo can effectively force all the inputs to the AND array this way. And IIRC registered PALs (and GALs?) have a way to load the register for testing, and this is not disabled by the securioty fuse. Even without this, it should be possible to crack a PAL or GAL. The point is that any change in intenral state is noticeable at the pins. You can't have the device change state internally nad not see it (this is not true of more complex devices, of course). It's not trivial, though. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Apr 25 15:24:03 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:24:03 -0300 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar References: <20090425124514.GA78557@silme.pair.com><1c7301c9c5c0$9cec89f0$477419bb@desktaba> <455385B4-5357-4D27-BAA4-F020CCFF28B3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1df101c9c5e3$fe7e2de0$477419bb@desktaba> > I'd say it's not a gray area at all; it can't be shared without > permission. Sorry :o( The scans weren't mine, but now I feel guilty sharing this "discovery", although a nice google seek would find this address anyway :oP > That said, those books aren't difficult to find; they show up on > eBay with some frequency. They are worth their weight in gold. I've > had the first two volumes since I was a kid, and gradually got the > rest of them over a couple of years as they were released. I cherish > those books. I do love what Steve writes. I took a day to read these three books, and I'd love to buy the originals. I had the brazilian edition of "build your own computer" and I'm very sad I sold it years ago. It is a very interesting book! Alexandre, PU1BZZ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 25 15:40:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:40:53 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <1df101c9c5e3$fe7e2de0$477419bb@desktaba> References: <20090425124514.GA78557@silme.pair.com><1c7301c9c5c0$9cec89f0$477419bb@desktaba> <455385B4-5357-4D27-BAA4-F020CCFF28B3@neurotica.com> <1df101c9c5e3$fe7e2de0$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <7A42E21B-FC08-4C08-AD0D-23902065DB72@neurotica.com> On Apr 25, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I'd say it's not a gray area at all; it can't be shared without >> permission. > > Sorry :o( The scans weren't mine, but now I feel guilty sharing > this "discovery", although a nice google seek would find this > address anyway :oP Hey, I downloaded them before I mentioned it. ;) I have the paper copies, but the PDFs will be nice to have, say, on airplane trips. >> That said, those books aren't difficult to find; they show up on >> eBay with some frequency. They are worth their weight in gold. I've >> had the first two volumes since I was a kid, and gradually got the >> rest of them over a couple of years as they were released. I cherish >> those books. > > I do love what Steve writes. I took a day to read these three > books, and I'd love to buy the originals. I had the brazilian > edition of "build your own computer" and I'm very sad I sold it > years ago. It is a very interesting book! Yes, I love that book. The concepts it teaches are still solid and applicable today, and even the examples are workable with parts you can easily find today if you substitute more modern components. (i.e., 62256s for 2114s) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 25 16:00:30 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> References: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20090425135409.K2359@shell.lmi.net> > > Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but she said > > it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she needed some > > equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. It was > > far from simple. Jeri (or Tony) might be able to build a PC on a desert island with nothing but a Victorinox knife, but I can't. (If I were marooned on a desert island with Jeri, why would I want a PC?) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 25 16:07:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:07:49 -0400 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <20090425135409.K2359@shell.lmi.net> References: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> <20090425135409.K2359@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <95B03751-B572-401A-AF9E-2A49FA0A0747@neurotica.com> On Apr 25, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Jeri Ellsworth built some FETs and simple gates at home -- but >>> she said >>> it took two years to figure out how to make it work, and she >>> needed some >>> equipment (like vacuum chambers) that few people have at home. >>> It was >>> far from simple. > > Jeri (or Tony) might be able to build a PC on a desert island > with nothing but a Victorinox knife, but I can't. > > (If I were marooned on a desert island with Jeri, why would I want > a PC?) Right there with you on that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 25 16:44:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:44:48 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2009 at 17:56, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have some schematics from the web, but they are extremely fuzzy and > hard to read. Can anyone help with theory of operation for an 820 > keyboard? I gather that it's a parallel data interface, but past that > I'm a bit in the dark. The 820 series is strongly related to the Jim Ferguson "Big Board" kits sold in the early 80's. Bitsavers has both the schematics for the 820 and the Big Boards. The keyboard interface is as simple as it gets--8 bit postive logic ASCII character code and a negative-going strobe to reflect a keypress. ISTR that BIg Board users tended to use George Risk keyboards, but just about every keyboard maker had a parallel ASCII model (e.g. Cherry, Keytronics, etc.). Other than looking for bad connections or discrete components on your keyboard, there's not much to be done, as all of the "smarts" are usually located in a single mask-programmed keyboard interface chip. To see if your 820 mainboard is at fault, try driving the keyboard lines with the output of a PC's parallel port (not possible with a "real" computer like a Mac). --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 25 16:52:06 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:52:06 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I have some schematics from the web, but they are extremely fuzzy and >> hard to read. Can anyone help with theory of operation for an 820 >> keyboard? I gather that it's a parallel data interface, but past that >> I'm a bit in the dark. > > The 820 series is strongly related to the Jim Ferguson "Big Board" > kits sold in the early 80's. Bitsavers has both the schematics for > the 820 and the Big Boards. > > The keyboard interface is as simple as it gets--8 bit postive logic > ASCII character code and a negative-going strobe to reflect a > keypress. ISTR that BIg Board users tended to use George Risk > keyboards, but just about every keyboard maker had a parallel ASCII > model (e.g. Cherry, Keytronics, etc.). Other than looking for bad > connections or discrete components on your keyboard, there's not much > to be done, as all of the "smarts" are usually located in a single > mask-programmed keyboard interface chip. > > To see if your 820 mainboard is at fault, try driving the keyboard > lines with the output of a PC's parallel port (not possible with a > "real" computer like a Mac). ...but possible in short spurts between crashes and viruses on a PC. ;) [sorry, I couldn't resist!] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Apr 25 17:21:41 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 18:21:41 -0400 Subject: AUI cables needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090402184007.02c2fdf8@localhost> Message-ID: <49F38CF5.2000007@netscape.net> Tom and all, My apologies for ignoring the list for a time. That spool is a bit more than I need (even ignoring the distance involved), but your message does make me think that obtaining some thicknet is going to be a challenge. It is not exactly conducive to shipment by parcel post. What is the minimum diameter that thicknet could be looped and still be straightened back out? I suspect that, like electrical conduit, it is "bend twice only" and pulling it off the spool counts as the first bend. At some point I may try to have some shipped directly to InfoAge for the MARCH museum but I need to make it work at home first. Jim Tom Peters wrote: > Looking for some "frozen yellow garden hose?" > > I have a spool of thicknet here. It's marked "DEC" and of course has a > paint mark every meter where you can tap it. There's an N-connector on > one end, the other end is cut. > > The spool is marked "320 feet" but I don't see how there can be that > much on it. I believe there's two layers of cable left wound on the > spool, 42 turns, 57" from one point on the spool to the same point on > the next turn (very approximately) yields, whoa, 399 feet? Hmmm. Well, > maybe there is 320 feet on it. > > I had thought to use it for amateur radio, since it's the right > impedance, but I dunnol how much loss I'd see at VHF frequencies. I use > 50 and 144 MHz radios, and 440 MHz UHF but I don't think this stuff is > any good for UHF. But my problems would be terminating it in anything > but an N-connector, and the fact that it would break down rapidly from > UV exposure if I try to use it outdoors. > > Make offer. Pick up in Southeastern Wisconsin. Or call a motor freight > company for a quote for pickup and shipping from 53051. > > 73 de N9QQB > > From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 21:06:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:06:05 -0400 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <95B03751-B572-401A-AF9E-2A49FA0A0747@neurotica.com> References: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> <20090425135409.K2359@shell.lmi.net> <95B03751-B572-401A-AF9E-2A49FA0A0747@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49F3C18D.8050002@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Jeri (or Tony) might be able to build a PC on a desert island >> with nothing but a Victorinox knife, but I can't. >> >> (If I were marooned on a desert island with Jeri, why would I want a PC?) > > > Right there with you on that. I once had the honor of having her kick my ass in armwrestling. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 25 21:36:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:36:11 -0700 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <49F3C18D.8050002@gmail.com> References: , <95B03751-B572-401A-AF9E-2A49FA0A0747@neurotica.com>, <49F3C18D.8050002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F3662B.6567.4A86A201@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2009 at 22:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I once had the honor of having her kick my ass in armwrestling. What were you doing, playing "Twister"? I'm running through various anatomical juxtapositions and it just doesn't compute. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 22:27:41 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:27:41 -0400 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <49F3662B.6567.4A86A201@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <95B03751-B572-401A-AF9E-2A49FA0A0747@neurotica.com>, <49F3C18D.8050002@gmail.com> <49F3662B.6567.4A86A201@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49F3D4AD.6090108@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Apr 2009 at 22:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I once had the honor of having her kick my ass in armwrestling. > > What were you doing, playing "Twister"? I'm running through various > anatomical juxtapositions and it just doesn't compute. More like she made me beat the crap out of myself. Peace... Sridhar From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 26 03:46:17 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:46:17 -0300 Subject: Transistors... References: <49F21740.5030302@softjar.se> <20090425135409.K2359@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <212401c9c64b$8ea4ed70$477419bb@desktaba> > (If I were marooned on a desert island with Jeri, why would I want a PC?) Mostly wise words...Why the world cannot have some more Jeris? Maybe two or three...million... :o) Alexandre, PU1BZZ From adamg at pobox.com Sat Apr 25 07:45:14 2009 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:45:14 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar Message-ID: <20090425124514.GA78557@silme.pair.com> The first three volumes of the Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar books are now available for online viewing (but not downloading) at Google Books. These books collect Steve Ciarcia's 70s/80s Byte columns - lots of interesting stuff. Links here: http://www.circuitcellar.com/newsletter/0409.html I have no relation to these scans but thought I'd pass the link along since these books come up now and then on the list and have lots of classiccmp-relevant content. -- Adam From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 25 15:44:30 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:44:30 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar Message-ID: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:20:28 -0400 > To: > >We'll see what Steve has to say about it. I think he has those books for >sale, doesn't he? > >I used to have my secretary xerox his columns (no, I didn't cut out of my >Byte magazines, though that collection has long since been deep-sixed) but I >don't know whether I still have those copies - probably "somewhere" but I'll >be damned if I know where that "somewhere" is. > >I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my workshop a few days ago I saw >his EEG project waiting to be revived. > >But there is so much to do.... > >Vern Wright > > > >-----REPLY----- > >Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. >I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the >first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew computing >tradition alive. > >http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > >You can see the full description of the release statement on the first page. > >Thanks and have a nice day! > >Andrew Lynch Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document it plain doesnt do it. Sites like this have a habit of disappearing and taking the content with it. Far too much stuff has gone lost over the years. Allison From mike at fenz.net Sun Apr 26 06:38:28 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:38:28 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net> Well, I dragged those Apple IIs out of storage, and spent this evening poking at them, with some success. Thought I'd post my results here, and hope that someone has some suggestions for me. There are three machines in total; one an Apple II Europlus, the other two generic II+ clones. The first thing I did was run them up - all dead, garbage on the screen. Same as last time I looked at them. Step 2 - pull all the cards and try again. After that, one of the clones ran up fine; turns out that the 'language card' (16k memory expansion) was killing it. Good stuff - one running Apple II, even if it's not an original. Unfortunately, the other two weren't quite so cooperative. I decided to look at the other clone first, as its behaviour was pretty interesting. The screen was entirely full of apostrophes to begin with, but randomly, blocks of them would change to lower case 'p's, and back, flickering very quickly. It responded to a reset by changing the pattern of ps, though they tended to appear in the same place. I found the ASCII values interesting: ' = 0x60 = 0110 0000 p = 0x70 = 0111 0000 So, on reset, perhaps it's clearing half the bits per byte, and the other four have a problem. Reseting the machine tended to lead to random behaviour for a bit, such as random display changes, and speaker clicks. At one point, the display switched to high-res mode, and I could see that a large amount of memory had the same sort of pattern through it, and was flickering the same way text was; I guess the entire memory space is like that. Perhaps bits 5 and 6 are permanently stuck. I checked the CPU's behaviour; on reset, the address and data lines would run for at least a short time, so I'm guessing the CPU is likely to be OK. Often they would continue to run, at which time I'd see the flickering. Other times, activity would stop, and the flickering would also stop, usually leaving a screen full of 's. So, my next step is to track down a schematic for the machine, and see what I can figure out. I'm guessing I should look first at anything that deals with the high four bits of memory. Thoughts, suggestions and intuitive guesses welcome! Cheers, Mike From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 26 07:04:05 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:04:05 -0300 Subject: More broken Apples... References: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net> Message-ID: <21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> > So, my next step is to track down a schematic for the machine, and see > what I can figure out. I'm guessing I should look first at anything that > deals with the high four bits of memory. Thoughts, suggestions and > intuitive guesses welcome! If the machine IC's are socketed, pull them one of a time and reinsert. This simple procedure does wonders :o) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Apr 26 07:18:30 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:18:30 +0100 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <49F223D6.8070607@pacbell.net> References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> <49F21871.EE8F62BE@cs.ubc.ca> <49F223D6.8070607@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1240748310.6930.6.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 15:40 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2835524263/in/photostream/ Now that is just *hardcore*. Gordon From mike at fenz.net Sun Apr 26 07:32:08 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 00:32:08 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> References: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net> <21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <49F45448.1090509@fenz.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> So, my next step is to track down a schematic for the machine, and see >> what I can figure out. I'm guessing I should look first at anything that >> deals with the high four bits of memory. Thoughts, suggestions and >> intuitive guesses welcome! > > If the machine IC's are socketed, pull them one of a time and > reinsert. This simple procedure does wonders :o) > A good idea! I'm pretty sure I did it when I first looked at these machines a while back, but it's worth rechecking. I'll give it another go. Maybe it's no coincidence that the one machine that works fine has most chips soldered directly to the board. Mike. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 10:07:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:07:38 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Allison wrote: >>Hi! ?Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. >>I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the >>first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew computing >>tradition alive. >> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > > Also a most useless site. ?Despite all claims of down loadable document > it plain doesnt do it. I had no problem with a Mac and Firefox getting a PDF to download. > Sites like this have a habit of disappearing and > taking the content with it. Far too much stuff has gone lost over the > years. Too true. -ethan From lists at databasics.us Sun Apr 26 10:28:55 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:28:55 -1000 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <49F47DB7.6040809@databasics.us> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. >>> I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the >>> first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew computing >>> tradition alive. >>> >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >>> >> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >> it plain doesnt do it. >> > > I had no problem with a Mac and Firefox getting a PDF to download. > Likewise with Linux and Windows XP. >> Sites like this have a habit of disappearing and >> taking the content with it. Far too much stuff has gone lost over the >> years. >> > > Too true. > If you know where it WAS, you can often find it at the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/index.php Warren From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 26 10:33:12 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:33:12 -0300 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <22af01c9c684$584d1840$477419bb@desktaba> >>Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. >>I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the >>first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew >>computing >>tradition alive. >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document > it plain doesnt do it. > Sites like this have a habit of disappearing and > taking the content with it. Far too much stuff has gone lost over the > years. There is the build your own z80 computer on that same link I posted before with the Circuit Cellar books. Seems the guy is specialized in Steve Ciarcia BTW I'm very inclined in buying the entire magazine collection in CD. It is not that expensive when you think how much knowledge is stored on that 13 CDs... Alexandre From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 26 11:50:03 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:50:03 -0700 Subject: MDS Series II service documents Message-ID: <49F490BB.7090805@bitsavers.org> A few new documents are up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/MDS2 including the service manual (which unfortunately has two sheets missing which describe part of the IOC board). Clean copies of the schematics are there, though. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 12:05:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:05:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Apr 26, 9 11:38:28 pm Message-ID: > > Unfortunately, the other two weren't quite so cooperative. I decided to > look at the other clone first, as its behaviour was pretty interesting. > The screen was entirely full of apostrophes to begin with, but randomly, > blocks of them would change to lower case 'p's, and back, flickering IIRC the Apple ][ text display was upper case only. The fact that your clone does lower case means there must be hardware differences between it and a real Apple. Which means, alas, the schematics for the latter aren't going to be a lot of use. > very quickly. It responded to a reset by changing the pattern of ps, > though they tended to appear in the same place. I found the ASCII values > interesting: > > ' = 0x60 = 0110 0000 > p = 0x70 = 0111 0000 > > So, on reset, perhaps it's clearing half the bits per byte, and the > other four have a problem. Reseting the machine tended to lead to random > behaviour for a bit, such as random display changes, and speaker clicks. > At one point, the display switched to high-res mode, and I could see > that a large amount of memory had the same sort of pattern through it, > and was flickering the same way text was; I guess the entire memory > space is like that. Perhaps bits 5 and 6 are permanently stuck. I would have expected ti to clear the screen to spaces at startup. That _may_ be 0010 0000 if the machine uses true ASCII codes in the video memeory. So maybe just bit 6 is playing up. As others have suggested, reseat all the socketed ICs. If in doubt, replace the sockets!. Then, assunming this thing uses 1 bit wide DRAMs (4116s, or similar), change the arounds. See ig you can make the stuck bit move somehwere else. If so, you know it's a RAM chip problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 11:50:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:50:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 25, 9 02:44:48 pm Message-ID: > To see if your 820 mainboard is at fault, try driving the keyboard > lines with the output of a PC's parallel port (not possible with a > "real" computer like a Mac). But certainly possible with real computers like PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, HP9000/200s, machines with HPIB or HPIL ports (+ the right interface converter), Commodores (most had user ports IIRC), BBC micros, etc, etc, etc Alternatively, can't you see if the existing keyboard is sending anything using a logic probe? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 11:48:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:48:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <20090425135409.K2359@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 25, 9 02:00:30 pm Message-ID: > > Jeri (or Tony) might be able to build a PC on a desert island > with nothing but a Victorinox knife, but I can't. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Leatherman tool, please :-) But why would I want a PC on a desert island? I can think of many things, even electronic things, that would be a lot more use (a radio transmitter would be high up the list...) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 26 12:21:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:21:36 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: References: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 25, 9 02:44:48 pm, Message-ID: <49F435B0.32562.4DB13D53@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2009 at 17:50, Tony Duell wrote: > But certainly possible with real computers like PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, > HP9000/200s, machines with HPIB or HPIL ports (+ the right interface > converter), Commodores (most had user ports IIRC), BBC micros, etc, > etc, etc It was meant as a jab to an earlier pro-Mac post about how PC's aren't "real" computers. > Alternatively, can't you see if the existing keyboard is sending > anything using a logic probe? Both approaches are valid, but I suggested the parallel port because (1) it's easy to do and (2) if it's the keyboard that's gone south, one can use the parallel port option to check out the rest of the machine until the keyboard fault was islolated and repaired. --Chuck From stekster at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 13:05:47 2009 From: stekster at gmail.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:05:47 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c9c699$a109f4d0$e31dde70$@com> >From: Vernon Wright >Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > >I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my workshop a few days ago I saw his EEG project >waiting to be revived. I was the prime instigator in the HAL-4 project. When I lived in CT I was a member of the CT Computer Club with Steve. He was always looking for ideas for his monthly column. Being a psychologist (but almost EE major) I had worked with biofeedback and thought a low cost EEG unit would be cool. I wrote the specs for the hardware and software and the non-technical parts of the article while 2 other club members did the hardware and software respectively, and Steve Many hundreds of these kits were sold over the years - I know because I enjoyed a $3/unit royalty on each one :-) Never-before-revealed-fact: I spec'd the design to have two switches which the operator could use to signal awareness of up to 3 internal states to see if they could be correlated with the brainwave pattern. In fact, I was inspired by Tim Leary's 'experiential typewriter' which he speculated could be used similarly when he first started experimenting with LSD. Brainwave feedback and analysis have progressed greatly in the past 20+ years and there's no reason why the PC software couldn't be re-written, though not many people have a serial port to which to connect HAL. I suppose an inline serial USB converter could be used. I believe there is still open source hardware specs and description available on the web. Bob Stek Former Saver of Lost Sols From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 26 14:27:28 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:27:28 -0300 Subject: Transistors... References: Message-ID: <238d01c9c6a5$afe677b0$477419bb@desktaba> > But why would I want a PC on a desert island? I can think of many things, > even electronic things, that would be a lot more use (a radio > transmitter would be high up the list...) With Jeri? That would be the last thing I'd want. Why be rescued? Blue Lagoon comes to mind :) She's hotter than Brooke Shields :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 15:08:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:08:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: <49F435B0.32562.4DB13D53@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 9 10:21:36 am Message-ID: > > On 26 Apr 2009 at 17:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > But certainly possible with real computers like PDP8s, PDP11s, PERQs, > > HP9000/200s, machines with HPIB or HPIL ports (+ the right interface > > converter), Commodores (most had user ports IIRC), BBC micros, etc, > > etc, etc > > It was meant as a jab to an earlier pro-Mac post about how PC's > aren't "real" computers. Sure. I was just pointing out there are plenty of real computers which do have parallel/user ports. > > > Alternatively, can't you see if the existing keyboard is sending > > anything using a logic probe? > > Both approaches are valid, but I suggested the parallel port because > (1) it's easy to do and (2) if it's the keyboard that's gone south, If you have a logic probe to hand (OK, I do, maybe most people don't), I suspect it's a lot quicker to put it on the keyboard strobe pin and then on the data pins while pressing keys to see if anything is coming out of the keyboard rather than to make a cable to link the keyboard port to a PC parallel port and then write the (trivial) program needed to simulate the keyoard. > one can use the parallel port option to check out the rest of the > machine until the keyboard fault was islolated and repaired. True. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 26 15:13:03 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mosaic for Mac OS X Message-ID: <200904262013.n3QKD3IJ018174@floodgap.com> (On topic, as NCSA Mosaic was killed in 1997.) So, I have nothing to do on weekends except sit on highway overpasses and snipe cars with a high powered rifle. Because of the terms of my probation, I had enough time this weekend in Corcoran to work on this: http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/mosaic/ This is another update of NCSA Mosaic, based on 2.7b5. I started with that and fixed a couple seriously crippling bugs for 2.7ck6, and in this version 2.7ck7, there are more improvements to the HTML core, fixed a lot of bugs with Gopher support, and cleaned up the source so that it would also compile under Mac OS X. There is a Universal binary for 10.4+ (requires X11 and OpenMotif, download links are on the page), plus source, and source builds on Power MachTen and most versions of OS X in general. If people build this successfully on other systems like Linux, *BSD, etc., I would like feedback. I'm considering porting this to A/UX next, but I will not have access to A/UX in San Quentin, so I'd better hurry up. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I had amnesia once -- or twice. -------------------------------------------- From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 26 15:46:15 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:46:15 -0300 Subject: More broken Apples... References: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net><21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> <49F45448.1090509@fenz.net> Message-ID: <244901c9c6b1$5b206310$477419bb@desktaba> > A good idea! I'm pretty sure I did it when I first looked at these > machines a while back, but it's worth rechecking. I'll give it another > go. Maybe it's no coincidence that the one machine that works fine has > most chips soldered directly to the board. It brings to my mind the Exato II Pro (search for it on the web) from CCE (Brazil). It was a beautiful apple clone, with one of the best keyboards I've ever used (similar or better than the GREAT IBM model "M"). It has a row of 10 or 12, I'm not that sure, programable function keys on the top of the keyboard. A real gem outside. But used one of the WORST IC sockets ever made. It is so bad, but SO BAD, that I know of no one that operates well today. And even one I had when they were new had the same problems. The leaf-type sockets oxidised (wow, how do I spell it?) so fast that CCE had to stop producing it and recall many of the computers made. I have two here, maybe someday I'll change all the sockets and have a great machine for playing. Interesting that most brazilian ][+ clones are equal in cabinet and even in schematic. All brazilian apple ][+ boards (except Micro Engenho, MaXXi and Laser 128 //c) are carbon copies one of another :o) Even the ones with lower case are equal, but with a small board on the place of the character ROM :oD From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 16:30:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:30:39 -0400 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <238d01c9c6a5$afe677b0$477419bb@desktaba> References: <238d01c9c6a5$afe677b0$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: > ? With Jeri? That would be the last thing I'd want. Why be rescued? Blue > Lagoon comes to mind :) She's hotter than Brooke Shields :) C'mon guys...roll your tongues back in you mouths. Use tact. Give the woman some common courtesy. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 26 16:41:43 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:41:43 +0100 Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > But why would I want a PC on a desert island? I can think of many things, > even electronic things, that would be a lot more use (a radio > transmitter would be high up the list...) I'm going to make the usual assumption that the desert island in question is reasonably warm (i.e. not in the Arctic Circle or a similar bloody cold place). Taking that assumption into account, this is what I'd want, roughly in descending order of importance: - A knife. Victorinox, Leatherman, Stanley, anything will do as long as it's sharp and reasonably clean (or can be easily cleaned). If you were in a plane crash, go scavenge the wreckage. - Some way of starting a fire. A few chunks of wood and a bit of string, some wire and a battery, or some form of lens (think about that one for a minute). Hell, I'll take a chunk of clear ice if I can cut or melt it (see "knife") to form a lens (although I think Mythbusters might have busted that one)... Can probably find enough stuff to make a half-decent bow-drill on the island. - A few days worth of food (ideally a week, but anything's better than nothing). Again, if the plane is in good nick, go scavenge in the wreckage. - A metal or other heat-proof tin would be useful (for cooking food and boiling water). - Water. Lower down the list because unless you just found a crate of mineral water stashed in the cargo hold of a plane that just went down, you need some way of making it safe to drink. That means fire and some form of heatproof and waterproof container. See above :) - Operable radio transceiver (read: with a decent amount of battery power) and a spool of wire (for a "Bodgit and Scarper" style longwire aerial). My ideal would be some form of HF rig, but an aircraft VHF rig would probably do as an alternate. Steal the battery from the plane (if you can find it), pull the radio, and bodge some cabling for it. - GPS receiver. The radio transceiver is useful, but it's even more useful if you can tell the person you just contacted "I'm Bill Bloggs, I was on XYZ Airlines Flight 123, which crashed at 1.2345 North by 2.3456 East." Bonus points if the GPS can tell you what country you've landed in, and if it's within reasonable distance of any populated areas. If I ended up (say) on a plane that crashed on a desert island, I'd like to think I could probably salvage enough stuff from the wreckage to be able to get a fire going, find enough food to last about a week, and (assuming the avionics survived the rapid-contact-with-terrain) get the radio to work and (depending on location) contact someone. At the end of that week? I'd probably be up the proverbial creek in a wire mesh canoe with no paddle, unless I somehow ended up half a mile away from civilisation. "Oh god, I've been surviving on cream crackers and corned beef for TWO WEEKS and there was a city WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE?!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From js at cimmeri.com Sun Apr 26 16:50:21 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:50:21 -0500 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: References: <238d01c9c6a5$afe677b0$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <49F4D71D.8060802@cimmeri.com> >> With Jeri? That would be the last thing I'd want. Why be rescued? Blue >> Lagoon comes to mind :) She's hotter than Brooke Shields :) >> > C'mon guys...roll your tongues back in you mouths. Use tact. Give the > woman some common courtesy. > While "The Blue Lagoon" was rated R, that was a pretty "G-rated" comment. But for all know, this "Jeri" person is a little brat who needs a playful spanking. What this has to do with transistors is beyond me. jS From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun Apr 26 17:33:42 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:33:42 -0400 Subject: Electro-mechanical device lubricants Message-ID: <49F4E146.2050409@nktelco.net> I have been gathering information on how to clean and properly lubricate a DEC PC05 and an ASR 33. The teletype manual calls out KS-7470 oil and KS-7471 grease. Googling, I find that there are a great number of lubricants with KS numbers. What is the origin of this number? It seems like it is some kind of directory of lubricants, but I can't find a listing. I found a cross for KS-7471 in an old AT&T purchasing document, but none for KS-7470. -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 26 17:54:57 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <49F4D71D.8060802@cimmeri.com> References: <238d01c9c6a5$afe677b0$477419bb@desktaba> <49F4D71D.8060802@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20090426154931.N53873@shell.lmi.net> > > C'mon guys...roll your tongues back in you mouths. Use tact. Give the > > woman some common courtesy. > What this has to do with transistors is beyond me. Jeri is one of the few people I know who can make their own transistors. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2835459827/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2835524263/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 26 18:07:59 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) In-Reply-To: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> References: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20090426155508.U53873@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > - A knife. Victorinox, Leatherman, Stanley, anything will do as long as it's > sharp and reasonably clean (or can be easily cleaned). If you were in a plane > crash, go scavenge the wreckage. You won't find many knives on current commercial flights. I'd rather have Jeri there. I am SURE that she could make a decent knife from any random hunk of iron, or even iron ore. > - Water. Lower down the list because unless you just found a crate of > mineral water stashed in the cargo hold of a plane that just went down, > you need some way of making it safe to drink. That means fire and some > form of heatproof and waterproof container. See above :) It's unlikely that your plane will hit a desert island in fresh water. You are likely to need potable water long before you can get any of that other stuff together. I can make a passable still out of the wreckage, once I get fire. If Jeri can come up with a better source of water, then my still can be re-purposed to use with fermented local fruit. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Apr 26 18:26:38 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:26:38 -0300 Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) References: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> <20090426155508.U53873@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> > I'd rather have Jeri there. I am SURE that she could make a decent knife > from any random hunk of iron, or even iron ore. Is she daughter of McGyver? :oD At least relative to Chuck Norris? :oD > I can make a passable still out of the wreckage, once I get fire. > If Jeri can come up with a better source of water, then my still can be > re-purposed to use with fermented local fruit. Jeri for president of the united states! :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 26 18:36:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:36:34 -0400 Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) In-Reply-To: <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> References: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> <20090426155508.U53873@shell.lmi.net> <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <7311359C-1402-43E5-9023-3AAB04C0B85C@neurotica.com> On Apr 26, 2009, at 7:26 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I'd rather have Jeri there. I am SURE that she could make a >> decent knife >> from any random hunk of iron, or even iron ore. > > Is she daughter of McGyver? :oD At least relative to Chuck > Norris? :oD I've wondered exactly that myself. Whoever she's related to, her geek skills are beyond comparison. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 26 19:00:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) In-Reply-To: <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> References: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> <20090426155508.U53873@shell.lmi.net> <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <20090426164129.Q53873@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Is she daughter of McGyver? :oD In a competition, . . . I'd put my money on Jeri. > At least relative to Chuck Norris? :oD In a competition, . . . I'd still probably put my money on Jeri. I have no doubt that she could kick my ass, even if I were in the shape I was 30 years ago, but her smile is enough to get my cooperation. So, we should show some respect. > Jeri for president of the united states! :oD I would hate to see her abilities wasted on politics. 'course I'd love to see what she would accomplish if she had the resources of GM, Motorola, NASA, etc. at her disposal From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 26 20:51:09 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) In-Reply-To: <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> from Alexandre Souza at "Apr 26, 9 08:26:38 pm" Message-ID: <200904270151.n3R1p9c6012106@floodgap.com> > Jeri for president of the united states! :oD YES SHE CAN! ... I'll get my coat. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Intel outside -- 6502 inside! ---------------------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 26 21:51:15 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:51:15 -0500 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <1240748310.6930.6.camel@elric> References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> <49F21871.EE8F62BE@cs.ubc.ca> <49F223D6.8070607@pacbell.net> <1240748310.6930.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49F51DA3.3020102@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 15:40 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2835524263/in/photostream/ > > Now that is just *hardcore*. Indeed. I had the honor of holding that particular piece in my hand about a year ago when I met Jeri. She's very willing to share her knowledge; she fully educated me on FPGAs, for example. Really great person. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 22:21:32 2009 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:21:32 +1000 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > > Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document > it plain doesnt do it. Worked perectly here. Lance From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sun Apr 26 23:17:15 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <000001c9c699$a109f4d0$e31dde70$@com> Message-ID: <269544.90826.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey Bob Stek, Thanks for the wonderful update. --- On Sun, 4/26/09, Bob Stek wrote: > From: Bob Stek > Subject: RE: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 11:05 AM > >From: Vernon Wright > >Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > > > >I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my > workshop a few days ago I > saw his EEG project >waiting to be revived. > > I was the prime instigator in the HAL-4 project. When I > lived in CT I was a > member of the CT Computer Club with Steve. He was always > looking for ideas > for his monthly column. Being a psychologist (but almost > EE major) I had > worked with biofeedback and thought a low cost EEG unit > would be cool. I > wrote the specs for the hardware and software and the > non-technical parts of > the article while 2 other club members did the hardware and > software > respectively, and Steve Many hundreds of these kits were > sold over the > years - I know because I enjoyed a $3/unit royalty on each > one :-) I'm glad you got my $3. I hope you invested wisely in good beer! :) > Never-before-revealed-fact: I spec'd the design to have > two switches which > the operator could use to signal awareness of up to 3 > internal states to see > if they could be correlated with the brainwave pattern. In > fact, I was > inspired by Tim Leary's 'experiential > typewriter' which he speculated could > be used similarly when he first started experimenting with > LSD. So tell me more. I haven't looked at this for so many years.... > Brainwave feedback and analysis have progressed greatly in > the past 20+ > years and there's no reason why the PC software > couldn't be re-written, > though not many people have a serial port to which to > connect HAL. I > suppose an inline serial USB converter could be used. I still have serial ports on most of my pc's. I don't keep up with the latest and greatest from Fry's. I might have a go at the software, when I have a spare miniute/hour/day/month. > I believe there is still open source hardware specs and > description > available on the web. Hint? Found the bios and a fft in basic. But the San Diego Computer Society is, I think, the longest-running personal computer group. It began in 1975 and is still in existence, though only as a shell of its once-vibrant self. Vern Wright From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Apr 27 00:19:22 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 01:19:22 -0400 Subject: designjet 500ps rescue (repair) Message-ID: <49F5405A.3030803@hawkmountain.net> I inherited a HP Designjet 500PS. It has earlier in it's life a magenta printhead explosion... so was a mess inside (nobody bothered to properly disassemble and clean the printer.... Did that, including disassembly and reassmbly of the service station. However, yellow stopped working... so it can't align print heads.... so I picked to primed tubes... but that needs a set of setup printheads that I don't have.... and I can't get out of that step even with a power cycle.... couldn't try to 'clean' the heads either.... as it needs to align the heads first ... which fails as yellow is not printing.... so I've gotten myself into a realy catch 22 situation with it.... And now I'm stuck w/o setup print heads. So, does anyone have or know where to cheaply get a set of setup printheads for a designjet 500, 500PS, 800, or 800PS (should all be the same). A replacement ink tube spare part would have the carts as well. This is the 25" variety, but other than the spare ink tube kit being different for 25" vs 42", the setup printheads would all be the same. Anyone have a service station... this one fails sometimes when it tries to ratchet the big wheel on the left side of the service station... Could also use a set of print heads. Thanks, -- Curt From bear at typewritten.org Mon Apr 27 01:05:19 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:05:19 -0700 Subject: Things I'd want on a desert island (was Re: Transistors...) In-Reply-To: <20090426164129.Q53873@shell.lmi.net> References: <49F4D517.1080905@philpem.me.uk> <20090426155508.U53873@shell.lmi.net> <255801c9c6c7$1d414c60$477419bb@desktaba> <20090426164129.Q53873@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Did the lists merge back together recently? I had been subscribed to cctech but am apparently now receiving some wildly off-topic messages from cctalk about desert island survival. I'm confused. ok bear From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 26 10:21:40 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:21:40 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar Message-ID: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:07:38 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Allison wrote: >>>Hi! ?Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. >>>I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the >>>first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew computing >>>tradition alive. >>> >>>http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >> >> Also a most useless site. ?Despite all claims of down loadable document >> it plain doesnt do it. > >I had no problem with a Mac and Firefox getting a PDF to download. I went to the mac using safari and that worked. Firfox on the NT4 box, Ubuntu8.04 and even Ubuntu 9.04 however clicking the down load button was a do nothing from Firefox. >> Sites like this have a habit of disappearing and >> taking the content with it. Far too much stuff has gone lost over the >> years. > >Too true. I have a massive abount of stuff I've downloaded form locations like that (also oak.oakland, Simtel and ..) and when I send people to the location it's not there anymore so it's fortunate I have the downloaded image. The nastiest things is a the cases where Geocities was consumed and material lost and later AOL hometown. the best example si try to find P2DOS, used to be on simtel and Oakland to name a few now mostly dead links or not at all. Allison From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 15:36:08 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49F321E0.9857.497BDD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Apr 2009 at 17:56, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I have some schematics from the web, but they are extremely fuzzy and >> hard to read. Can anyone help with theory of operation for an 820 >> keyboard? I gather that it's a parallel data interface, but past that >> I'm a bit in the dark. > > The 820 series is strongly related to the Jim Ferguson "Big Board" > kits sold in the early 80's. Bitsavers has both the schematics for > the 820 and the Big Boards. > > The keyboard interface is as simple as it gets--8 bit postive logic > ASCII character code and a negative-going strobe to reflect a > keypress. ISTR that BIg Board users tended to use George Risk > keyboards, but just about every keyboard maker had a parallel ASCII > model (e.g. Cherry, Keytronics, etc.). Other than looking for bad > connections or discrete components on your keyboard, there's not much > to be done, as all of the "smarts" are usually located in a single > mask-programmed keyboard interface chip. > > To see if your 820 mainboard is at fault, try driving the keyboard > lines with the output of a PC's parallel port (not possible with a > "real" computer like a Mac). Very good suggestion, Chuck - thanks! Fortunately, it turns out to have been much simpler. The 820-II firmware apparently expects the FDC controller to be present during init. To keep things simple, I had the daughterboard unplugged. Once I smartened up and plugged the controller in, it started responding to the keyboard. I can only assume it resets the controller at power up and is waiting for some sort of state change or interrupt. Without the board present it was just waiting forever and never getting to the stage where it would acknowledge character input from the keyboard. Nice when things turn out this easy. Steve -- From falco at ihug.co.nz Sun Apr 26 18:39:40 2009 From: falco at ihug.co.nz (falco at ihug.co.nz) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:39:40 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > IIRC the Apple ][ text display was upper case only. The fact that your > clone does lower case means there must be hardware differences between it > and a real Apple. Which means, alas, the schematics for the latter aren't > going to be a lot of use. I think I might be luckier than that. As far as I can tell, the character ROM in the Apple ][ is ASCIIish, but for some reason the lower case ASCII positions contained upper case characters. This seems really strange to me; why would Apple have done that? I can't think of any advantages. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Anyway, it appears that the clones tended to have true lower-case characters in these positions. Looking at the board, it seems identical to the II+ board I have - same ICs in the same positions, even the printed text is the same and in the same locations. So, hopefully a II+ schematic will be of some use, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few differences. I'll just have to believe the machine rather than the schematic. I found several mistakes on the AppleColor monitor diagrams, though perhaps those were for a very slightly different model. > I would have expected ti to clear the screen to spaces at startup. That > _may_ be 0010 0000 if the machine uses true ASCII codes in the video > memeory. So maybe just bit 6 is playing up. Aha, very good point. Paying attention to that would be worthwhile. General question - would the entire RAM space be set to zeros at restart, or would unused memory be left full of garbage? > As others have suggested, reseat all the socketed ICs. If in doubt, > replace the sockets! Lots of work and time required... I could consider it though. It's probably not justified for this clone, but if I can get the original II+ working, that'll be a machine that means a lot to me, so I could consider it. I recall hearing recommendations for the turned-pin style sockets. > Then, assunming this thing uses 1 bit wide DRAMs > (4116s, or similar), change the arounds. See ig you can make the stuck > bit move somehwere else. If so, you know it's a RAM chip problem. Good idea! I seem to recall that you can run one of these machines with only 16k; perhaps first I should pull all the memory but the required 16k, and go on from there. I'll have to find out whether I'm right, and if I am, which set of 4116s (which is what it uses) is the correct 16k. Cheers, Mike. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 27 05:05:14 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:05:14 +0100 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/04/2009 00:39, falco at ihug.co.nz wrote: >> IIRC the Apple ][ text display was upper case only. The fact that your >> clone does lower case means there must be hardware differences between it >> and a real Apple. Which means, alas, the schematics for the latter aren't >> going to be a lot of use. > > I think I might be luckier than that. As far as I can tell, the character > ROM in the Apple ][ is ASCIIish, but for some reason the lower case ASCII > positions contained upper case characters. There's a standard modification to add lower case to an Apple ][, which consists of merely replacing the chargen (EP)ROM for the display, and adding a wire for the keyboard. I guess Apple just decided to economise so the keyboard didn't generate lower case, and hence there was no need for lower case in the chargen either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mike at fenz.net Mon Apr 27 05:25:18 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:25:18 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <244901c9c6b1$5b206310$477419bb@desktaba> References: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net><21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> <49F45448.1090509@fenz.net> <244901c9c6b1$5b206310$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <49F5880E.1@fenz.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: > It brings to my mind the Exato II Pro (search for it on the web) > from CCE (Brazil). It was a beautiful apple clone, with one of the > best keyboards I've ever used (similar or better than the GREAT IBM > model "M"). It has a row of 10 or 12, I'm not that sure, programable > function keys on the top of the keyboard. A real gem outside. But used > one of the WORST IC sockets ever made. It is so bad, but SO BAD, that > I know of no one that operates well today. And even one I had when > they were new had the same problems. The leaf-type sockets oxidised > (wow, how do I spell it?) so fast that CCE had to stop producing it > and recall many of the computers made. I have two here, maybe someday > I'll change all the sockets and have a great machine for playing. > Now I'm fascinated by the thought of Brazilian Apple II+ clones. Did any of them vary much from the standard Apple II configurations? > Interesting that most brazilian ][+ clones are equal in cabinet and > even in schematic. All brazilian apple ][+ boards (except Micro > Engenho, MaXXi and Laser 128 //c) are carbon copies one of another :o) > Even the ones with lower case are equal, but with a small board on the > place of the character ROM :oD > They're probably like the clones we saw in New Zealand - really almost identical to an original Apple II+ board. In fact, all three machines I have here are very similar - as I mentioned, same type of ICs in the same locations. I guess in most cases, there wasn't any point in changing what was known to work! In the 80s I had a machine called a MedFly - bizarre name, but just an Apple II+ clone with most options on board (e.g. the 16k expansion, Z80 second processor for CP/M). I think it was a rebadged Basis 108, which I recall had legal licensed Apple ROMs in it. I don't think that was common. Certainly, the main board in that was nothing like a standard Apple one, though I'd guess that electrically it was just like a II+ with a bunch of cards in it. Cheers, Mike From mike at fenz.net Mon Apr 27 05:34:28 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:34:28 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49F58A34.7000702@fenz.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > There's a standard modification to add lower case to an Apple ][, > which consists of merely replacing the chargen (EP)ROM for the > display, and adding a wire for the keyboard. I guess Apple just > decided to economise so the keyboard didn't generate lower case, and > hence there was no need for lower case in the chargen either. > Yes - my II+ has the shift mod fitted, though I don't know if it has the updated character ROM (I've never seen it run). Your explanation sounds about right to me. Though it still seems strange, adding lower-case support can't have been that hard or expensive? It must have made sense to Apple at the time I guess! The clones had it built-in, no modifications required. The one I have working does lower case in the regular way you'd expect, and both clones have a shift lock key. I remember using a word processor on the II+ I had in the mid 80s; that had the shift mod, but no lower case ROM. The software indicated upper case characters by showing that character in inverse video.Quite clunky, but it worked fine; I was quite happy with the results by the time they made their way out of the printer. It's surprising that it worked as well as it did I guess. Having said that, I was very pleased to upgrade to a IIe. Cheers, Mike. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 27 06:36:41 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 05:36:41 -0600 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:39:40 +1200. Message-ID: In article , writes: > > As others have suggested, reseat all the socketed ICs. If in doubt, > > replace the sockets! > > Lots of work and time required... I could consider it though. Umm... its an Apple ][. There's like, what, 30 socketed chips in there? We're talking like 5-10 minutes to reseat them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mike at fenz.net Mon Apr 27 06:51:41 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:51:41 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F59C4D.9060606@fenz.net> Richard wrote: > Umm... its an Apple ][. There's like, what, 30 socketed chips in there? > We're talking like 5-10 minutes to reseat them. > Already done - twice now! It took under five minutes. I was talking about replacing the sockets; that would take a fair amount of time, I'd want to be very careful not to damage the board. Mike. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 27 08:51:49 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:51:49 -0300 Subject: More broken Apples... References: Message-ID: <285e01c9c73f$76ff9c20$477419bb@desktaba> > Umm... its an Apple ][. There's like, what, 30 socketed chips in there? > We're talking like 5-10 minutes to reseat them. 108 if I'm not mistaken :o) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 27 08:54:46 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 06:54:46 -0700 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:05:14 +0100 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: More broken Apples... > > On 27/04/2009 00:39, falco at ihug.co.nz wrote: >>> IIRC the Apple ][ text display was upper case only. The fact that your >>> clone does lower case means there must be hardware differences between it >>> and a real Apple. Which means, alas, the schematics for the latter aren't >>> going to be a lot of use. >> >> I think I might be luckier than that. As far as I can tell, the character >> ROM in the Apple ][ is ASCIIish, but for some reason the lower case ASCII >> positions contained upper case characters. > > There's a standard modification to add lower case to an Apple ][, which > consists of merely replacing the chargen (EP)ROM for the display, and > adding a wire for the keyboard. I guess Apple just decided to economise > so the keyboard didn't generate lower case, and hence there was no need > for lower case in the chargen either. > Hi An interesting side note. Jef Raskin said that Apple had to use Poly88's to write the manuals for the Apple II because of the lack of lower case. It was just felt that there would be no need for lower case while running BASIC. Why would one want to use a computer to type a document. After all, typewriters worked fine. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009 From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 27 09:10:12 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:10:12 -0500 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49F5BCC4.9040109@pacbell.net> [re: lack of lower case on Apple IIs] Here is a tangential story. Early Wang 2200's didn't support lower case to the CRT. However there was a mechanism for specifying lower case so that things sent to a printer could be mixed case. Strings enclosed in single quotes were converted to lower case. For example: 10 PRINT "THIS IS UPPER CASE" 20 PRINT 'THIS IS LOWER CASE' 30 PRINT "M";'Y NAME IS ';"J";'IM' RUN (and this would appear when sent to a printer) THIS IS UPPER CASE this is lower case My name is Jim From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 27 09:14:30 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:14:30 -0300 Subject: Brazilian mix-ups References: <49F59C4D.9060606@fenz.net> Message-ID: <287a01c9c742$c4ce8e90$477419bb@desktaba> Since I wrote about the brazilian apples, I'll write a bit about the brazilian mix-up clones. A "mix-up" is a clone with a whole different cabinet, copied from another computer. Here we go: TK85 (microdigital) - ZX81 with 16K and some circuit enhancements, Cabinet from Sinclair Spectrum TK95 (microdigital) - Sinclair Spectrum with some ROM enhancements, cabinet from Commodore Plus4 TK2000 (microdigital) - MPF1000 clone, Cabinet from Atari 1200XL CP400 (Prologica) - CoCo Clone (CoCoClo :oD) with cabinet from Timex Sinclair 2068 MicroEngenho (Spectrum) - Apple clone, Cabinet from PC-XT These are the "mix-ups" as far as I know. Feel free to contact me if you find something beyond that :o) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre, PU1BZZ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 27 09:07:01 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:07:01 -0300 Subject: More broken Apples... References: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net><21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> <49F45448.1090509@fenz.net><244901c9c6b1$5b206310$477419bb@desktaba> <49F5880E.1@fenz.net> Message-ID: <287901c9c742$c35f6e30$477419bb@desktaba> > Now I'm fascinated by the thought of Brazilian Apple II+ clones. Did any > of them vary much from the standard Apple II configurations? Hmmm...lets see, I'll try to remember all DIFFERENT clones (not copycats of the ][+): - MicroEngenho (mfg: Spectrum): An Apple //e (if I'm not mistaken) made in a PC-XT-Like cabinet. Very rare, boards completely different of the original Apple. - MaXXi (mfg: Polymax): I've never seen one in person. The cabinet is completely different from anything I've ever seen. Polymax made digital telex equipment, seems to have an excess of cabinets and made the MaXXi. As far as I know, the rarest brazilian Apple-like - Exato, Exato Pr?, Exato //e (CCE). All share the same cabinet, very beautiful and excellent keyboard. Exato doesn't have the function keys on top, Exato pr? has. Exato //e I don't remember well, I think only the internal mainboard is changed. Famous for the bad sockets it uses. - Apple Laser //c: A clone made by Milmar (which made the excellent Craft ][+ copycat clone) which is a bad mix of the laser 128 and apple //c. It has the WORST keyboard I've ever seen, an external power supply almost the size of the computer and is just a simple ][+. A bad joke. Of course, no internal drive - (interesting, but not apple ][+)Mac 512 (mfg: Unitron): A reengineered copy of the Mac 512, with a different logic board and dedicated ICs made by National Instruments. Very bad quality cabinet, no-auto-eject drives (used chinon mechanic drives). BTW, I have one. The rarest of all :) - TK3000 (mfg: Microdigital): a true reengineered //e. Different cabinet, different (programable) keyboard with numerical keypad (and even better than the exato keyboard), already being an "enhanced" model from scratch. A huge sales success in Brazil - TK3000 Compact (mfg: Microdigital): a "thing". A very small TK3000 with same keyboard but small board (with lots of impossible-to-be-found-if-broken dedicated ICs) and some expansions (memory, maybe CPM, printer, floppy) onboard. A bit rare. - TK2000/2000II (mfg: Microdigital): Clone of the "MPF" Microprofesseur, which is an apple clone more-or-less compatible with a little bit different ROM. The cabinet is a copy of the Atari 1200XL :o) Very, but VERY strange beast. The drive interface was made into the box of a brazilian atari cartridge (!!!!!!!!!!) and it connected on the side of the computer. > They're probably like the clones we saw in New Zealand - really almost > identical to an original Apple II+ board. In fact, all three machines I > have here are very similar - as I mentioned, same type of ICs in the > same locations. I guess in most cases, there wasn't any point in > changing what was known to work! In the 80s I had a machine called a > MedFly - bizarre name, but just an Apple II+ clone with most options on > board (e.g. the 16k expansion, Z80 second processor for CP/M). I think > it was a rebadged Basis 108, which I recall had legal licensed Apple > ROMs in it. I don't think that was common. Certainly, the main board in > that was nothing like a standard Apple one, though I'd guess that > electrically it was just like a II+ with a bunch of cards in it. Most of them, were. It was very easy to clone a ][+. Just copy the board, the power supply, the cabinet and the ROMs. There are photos that can be found on the web if you are curious :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 10:02:12 2009 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:02:12 +0100 Subject: Brazilian mix-ups In-Reply-To: <287a01c9c742$c4ce8e90$477419bb@desktaba> References: <49F59C4D.9060606@fenz.net> <287a01c9c742$c4ce8e90$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <53e388f20904270802r1360bd17td7a42d0b8e62ed4e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote: > > Since I wrote about the brazilian apples, I'll write a bit about the > brazilian mix-up clones. > > A "mix-up" is a clone with a whole different cabinet, copied from another > computer. > > Here we go: > > TK85 (microdigital) - ZX81 with 16K and some circuit enhancements, > Cabinet from Sinclair Spectrum > TK95 (microdigital) - Sinclair Spectrum with some ROM enhancements, > cabinet from Commodore Plus4 > TK2000 (microdigital) - MPF1000 clone, Cabinet from Atari 1200XL > CP400 (Prologica) - CoCo Clone (CoCoClo :oD) with cabinet from Timex > Sinclair 2068 > MicroEngenho (Spectrum) - Apple clone, Cabinet from PC-XT > > These are the "mix-ups" as far as I know. Feel free to contact me if you > find something beyond that :o) > > Greetings from Brazil, > Alexandre, PU1BZZ > > > You missed the TK90X which appears to be an enhanced 48K Spectrum with a built-in joystick port. I've not dared to power mine up yet! http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Microdigital/tk90x.php -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Apr 27 11:43:14 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:43:14 -0300 Subject: Brazilian mix-ups References: <49F59C4D.9060606@fenz.net><287a01c9c742$c4ce8e90$477419bb@desktaba> <53e388f20904270802r1360bd17td7a42d0b8e62ed4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2a2301c9c757$57340940$477419bb@desktaba> > You missed the TK90X which appears to be an enhanced 48K Spectrum with a > built-in joystick port. I've not dared to power mine up yet! > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Microdigital/tk90x.php No Adrian, I tried to list the "bizarre" computers. Guts of one, external box of other. TK90X is an almost-copycat clone of the Spectrum. The case is fatter and there are the ventilation pits on the top. And a joystick port that conforms to the interface2 standard (6789+0 if I'm not mistaken). But it "looks" like a ZX Speccy. There are modifications on the ROM (boot screen, UDG2 graphic editor) but you can put a plain speccy rom on it's place and it will work. There are some games that REQUIRES the spectrum ROM (I'm very sorry I don't remember which ones, but it was a common mod in Brazil to put a copy of the speccy rom on the TK90/95 and a flip-flop with a reset button to change ROMs and make it more compatible with the original speccy). Why haven't you dare? Just put a plain 9-12v dc, positive tip power supply on that. you'll tune it on channel 3 or 4 to see the image, there is a mod for composite video out of it, but the original is RF (vhf) only From dmabry at mich.com Mon Apr 27 11:49:59 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:49:59 -0400 Subject: MDS Series II service documents In-Reply-To: <49F490BB.7090805@bitsavers.org> References: <49F490BB.7090805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49F5E237.3090200@mich.com> Thank you, Al. Can never have too much documentation. I especially like it in electronic form. Tip o' the hat, to you! Dave Al Kossow said the following on 4/26/2009 12:50 PM: > A few new documents are up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/MDS2 > including the service manual (which unfortunately has two sheets missing > which describe part of the IOC board). Clean copies of the schematics are > there, though. > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 27 12:46:35 2009 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:46:35 +0100 Subject: Brazilian mix-ups In-Reply-To: <2a2301c9c757$57340940$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On 27/04/2009 17:43, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> You missed the TK90X which appears to be an enhanced 48K Spectrum with a >> built-in joystick port. I've not dared to power mine up yet! >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Microdigital/tk90x.php > > No Adrian, I tried to list the "bizarre" computers. Guts of one, > external box of other. TK90X is an almost-copycat clone of the Spectrum. The Ah, ok :) That's what I get for speed-reading while at work! > Why haven't you dare? Just put a plain 9-12v dc, positive tip power > supply on that. you'll tune it on channel 3 or 4 to see the image, there is > a mod for composite video out of it, but the original is RF (vhf) only I can see it from where I'm sat now, I might give it a go tonight, didn't originally because the PSU in the box is 110v (I'm in the UK) and the person in Brazil I got it from didn't test it either! Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 27 12:54:25 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:54:25 +0100 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49F58A34.7000702@fenz.net> References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> <49F58A34.7000702@fenz.net> Message-ID: <49F5F151.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/04/2009 11:34, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > I remember using a word processor on the II+ I had in the mid 80s; that > had the shift mod, but no lower case ROM. The software indicated upper > case characters by showing that character in inverse video.Quite clunky, > but it worked fine; I was quite happy with the results by the time they > made their way out of the printer. It's surprising that it worked as > well as it did I guess. Having said that, I was very pleased to upgrade > to a IIe. I remember that. Was it AppleWriter? I had an Exidy Sorcerer at the time, with the Word Processor Pac, and that had proper lower case, so I never much bothered with the Apple for WP. I still have my copy of Visicalc, though! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 27 13:10:47 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:10:47 -0600 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:54:25 +0100. <49F5F151.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: In article <49F5F151.2050401 at dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > On 27/04/2009 11:34, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > > > I remember using a word processor on the II+ I had in the mid 80s; that > > had the shift mod, but no lower case ROM. The software indicated upper > > case characters by showing that character in inverse video.Quite clunky, > > but it worked fine; I was quite happy with the results by the time they > > made their way out of the printer. It's surprising that it worked as > > well as it did I guess. Having said that, I was very pleased to upgrade > > to a IIe. > > I remember that. Was it AppleWriter? This reverse video business sounds vaguely familiar. The only word processor commercial software I am familiar with for Apple ][ was PFS:Write. The software was really slow, even for an Apple ][. When I saw an excerpt of the code published in "Programmers at Work", I understood why. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Apr 27 13:28:30 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:28:30 +0100 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble > >> And, while I like playing with the old computers, and fixing them, >> nothing beats screaming speed in a personal computer. > > Now that's something that's never bothered me .If my machine takes 10 > minutes to complie my program, so what? I just do something else while > it's compiling. And it gets me to check my code before compiling it, > hopefully ending up with a etter program (the 'poke and hope' brigade > worry me -- changing things until the program compiles and/or runs) It depends on the size of the program. I work on a a program which used to have a million lines of source code and on a 2GHz Intel MacBook Pro takes around 10 minutes to compile for debugging. Building the final version on our PowerPC server for two target architectures take a good half hour. You can imagine how long it would take to compile on my 1301 where the shortest instruction (NOP) is 12 microseconds and the longest (multiply with both operands of 12 non zero digits) is 3784 microseconds. I have recently constructed an RS232 interface for my 1301 (Just a level changer and one bit input the processor can sample, no fancy UART or SCC) and using a USB to serial converter on the Mac have connected the two. A six instruction bootstrap hand keyed into Flossie (my 1301) and a download and go high level assembler in the Mac mean I can write software whenever and wherever I happen to have a few minutes free. Back at home I can power up Flossie and usually find the core memory still contains my bootstrap, then assemble and squirt the program down the serial port at 9600 baud, which wouldn't take long, even to load the entire 2000 words (48 bits) core store. So far my biggest program is only about two hundred words. When I fill the core I'll have to start overlaying off drum or tape, or even Mac when I get serial output working too. I am hoping to retrieve software from about 100,000 punched cards via the check reading brushes of the card punch, which is much more gentle on old cards than the real card reader. Then it will be time to start on the programs on magnetic tape, but first I have to get a higher speed parallel interface working so I can read the tapes without stopping between blocks and risk stretching/breaking 40 year old tapes. I have been looking into getting the line printer working. There are 120 off 100 microfarad 100v capacitors which hold the energy required to fire the print hammer solenoids. Each on is about an inch diameter and three inches long. The modern equivalent is tiny and will not even reach between the holes in the PCB, but the leads can be extended. Of course they don't look right, maybe I should think about opening the old cans and putting the new components inside. Maybe there are harmful chemicals inside. When a transistor or diode fails I don't have the option of buying new ones, but fortunately I have ample spares of used ones of most types. Most times I can replace the whole card (four AND gates, one flip flop, one inverter and re-inverter, a clock gate or dozens of types of amplifiers/attenuators). Occasionally the fault is with the wiring or wire wrap or soldered joint. All these are very reliable but there are literally millions of them so the odd one failing is not really surprising. Core failures are a totally different problem. The official method is to use a spare row or column which has worked fine so far though long term I am worried about running out. I don't think my eyesight would be up to remaking a whole core plane but one day it might be necessary to get it done. I enjoy the intellectual task of finding the location of a logic fault but not mechanical problems, they are just something which has to be done, a pain in the backside. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 27 13:15:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:15:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 820-II troubleshooting - need advice In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 26, 9 04:36:08 pm Message-ID: > Fortunately, it turns out to have been much simpler. The 820-II firmware > apparently expects the FDC controller to be present during init. To keep > things simple, I had the daughterboard unplugged. > > Once I smartened up and plugged the controller in, it started responding > to the keyboard. I can only assume it resets the controller at power up > and is waiting for some sort of state change or interrupt. Without the > board present it was just waiting forever and never getting to the stage > where it would acknowledge character input from the keyboard. This reminds me in a way of a problem I had with a Whitechapel MG1 (A 32016-based workstation). It flashed the error LED at power-on, reporting a multi-bit DRAM error. TO gcut a very long story short, after battling throuhg the memory arbitration logic, I discovered there was actually nothing wrong. The mainboard has 512K of RAM on it, the boot ROM needs (and tests) 1.5M. After plugging in the 2 RAM expansion boards I'd removed 'to keep things simple' (:-)), it worked fine. This is not documented in any of the manuals I have. > Nice when things turn out this easy. In my case it wasn't so simple. It took me a day to go through and check all the logic. It's a complcated machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 27 13:17:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:17:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <244901c9c6b1$5b206310$477419bb@desktaba> from "Alexandre Souza" at Apr 26, 9 05:46:15 pm Message-ID: > It brings to my mind the Exato II Pro (search for it on the web) from > CCE (Brazil). It was a beautiful apple clone, with one of the best keyboards > I've ever used (similar or better than the GREAT IBM model "M"). It has a > row of 10 or 12, I'm not that sure, programable function keys on the top of > the keyboard. A real gem outside. But used one of the WORST IC sockets ever > made. It is so bad, but SO BAD, that I know of no one that operates well > today. And even one I had when they were new had the same problems. The > leaf-type sockets oxidised (wow, how do I spell it?) so fast that CCE had to > stop producing it and recall many of the computers made. I have two here, > maybe someday I'll change all the sockets and have a great machine for > playing. I think the best thing to do with a machine like that is to remove all the old sockets (cut them up and desolder a pin at a time), clean out the PCB holes and replace them with turned pin (machined pin, whatever you call them) sockets. Yes, they're expensive, but I've yet to have problems with them. I use nothing else here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 27 14:00:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:00:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at Apr 27, 9 07:28:30 pm Message-ID: [Fast machines] > > > > Now that's something that's never bothered me .If my machine takes 10 > > minutes to complie my program, so what? I just do something else while > > it's compiling. And it gets me to check my code before compiling it, > > hopefully ending up with a etter program (the 'poke and hope' brigade > > worry me -- changing things until the program compiles and/or runs) > > It depends on the size of the program. I work on a a program which > used to have a million lines of source code and on a 2GHz Intel Oh, I never said that there are no times when a fast machine is useful (or essential). Just that _I_ don't need one. I can think of many other things that are essential for other particular jobs that I don't need, too... > I have been looking into getting the line printer working. There are > 120 off 100 microfarad 100v capacitors which hold the energy required > to fire the print hammer solenoids. Each on is about an inch diameter > and three inches long. The modern equivalent is tiny and will not even > reach between the holes in the PCB, but the leads can be extended. Of Yes, electrolytic capacitors have really shrunk recently... > course they don't look right, maybe I should think about opening the > old cans and putting the new components inside. Maybe there are > harmful chemicals inside. The valve radio restoration crowd do this all the time (cut open the old can carefully and put a modern component inside). AFAIK the chemicals aren't particularly harmful, obviously don't ingest them, and whash your hands after pulling the old capacitor apart, but I've never heard of any other precaustions being necessary. Personally, though, I don't like doing this. To me, it's a form of faking. If somebody examines the machine in 100 years time (or whatver), are they going to correctly deduce why there's a tiny capacitor hidden in a large can? Or are they going to think it was made that way originally. It's a personal choice, though. > I enjoy the intellectual task of finding the location of a logic fault > but not mechanical problems, they are just something which has to be > done, a pain in the backside. > I dont meind mechanical problems and repairs. Often, of course, the problem can een seen just by looking at it (mistiming of camshafts, etc, is another matter...). Of course you normally have to make the necessary part, but it's suprising what can be done in a home workshop... -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:44:18 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:44:18 -0700 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Jim Battle wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> >>> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >>> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit >>> would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, >>> and play back this converted sound. >> >> [snip] >>> >>> I *want* one of these...! >> >> It was published in Electronic Design magazine: >> >> "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) >> Pease, Bob >> Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 >> >> I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, >> LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of Rs >> and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or similar >> -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or similar >> -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). > > http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html > Saw this in the news today: Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:52:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:52:48 -0400 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <200901090406.05353.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0KCR00M2UOI3PLM3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <200901090406.05353.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 5:06 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> My fractional portion of currency is that the 630x is a hitachi varient of >> the 680x (6800 single chip mpus)... > > I have some of these, ?HD6303Y in particular, ?and a databook that covers > them... > > Rather odd packaging, ?though, ?64-pin "shrunk" DIP. ?I did manage to snag a > wire-wrap socket for these as a sample at a trade show, ?but I'm still either > going to have to drill a bunch of holes in my perfboard or bend the pins or > something to use it. I have a board someone gave me to strip for parts - it has some 7-segment LEDs and a few other bits of interest (it looks like the front panel for some sort of electronic instrument). I wasn't planning on extracting the CPU, but I could. Difficulties with working with the package format are certainly coloring my opinion about wanting to re-use it. I have a couple of "real" 6800s and 6802s. I guess I'd have to read the 6303 datasheet to determine if it had any features that made it interesting enough to attempt to reuse. -ethan From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Apr 27 15:06:55 2009 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brazilian mix-ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <141251.22052.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I wouldn't call the TK-81 a "mix-up". Google the Timex/Sinclair 1500. Al ----- Original Message ---- From: "Alexandre Souza" Since I wrote about the brazilian apples, I'll write a bit about the brazilian mix-up clones. A "mix-up" is a clone with a whole different cabinet, copied from another computer. Here we go: TK85 (microdigital) - ZX81 with 16K and some circuit enhancements, Cabinet from Sinclair Spectrum From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 27 15:02:05 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:02:05 -0500 Subject: The General Approach to Computing - A Ramble In-Reply-To: <1240748310.6930.6.camel@elric> References: <49F18816.6070908@softjar.se> <49F1D71B.2030104@pacbell.net> <49F21871.EE8F62BE@cs.ubc.ca> <49F223D6.8070607@pacbell.net> <1240748310.6930.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090427145459.03aedaf8@mail.threedee.com> At 07:18 AM 4/26/2009, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 15:40 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2835524263/in/photostream/ > >Now that is just *hardcore*. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/2909505418/ OMG. She has an Amray 1800 SEM. I have a 1610! Maybe she'll call me someday. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 18:53:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:53:09 -0400 Subject: Electro-mechanical device lubricants In-Reply-To: <49F4E146.2050409@nktelco.net> References: <49F4E146.2050409@nktelco.net> Message-ID: > I have been gathering information on how to clean and properly lubricate a > DEC PC05 and an ASR 33. The teletype manual calls out KS-7470 oil and > KS-7471 grease. Googling, I find that there are a great number of lubricants > with KS numbers. What is the origin of this number? It seems like it is some > kind of directory of lubricants, but I can't find a listing. I found a cross > for KS-7471 in an old AT&T purchasing document, but none for KS-7470. Kearny System. Western Electric talk. -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Apr 27 20:03:46 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:03:46 -0400 Subject: Possible Corvus IBM XT Mirror? Message-ID: Hi! I recently obtained a "mystery" IBM PC board. It has a Z80 CPU, two CTCs, 8K of SRAM, and a bunch of 74LS logic. I *suspect* this board is one of those VCR backup boards from the early 1980's. The only text on the board is described by its previous owner on Vintage-Computer.com forums: QUOTE i don't think the EGA cards used a Z80bCPU chip or a 12mhz crystal... i did find some numbers on the card... Audio Visual Laboratories, Inc. 27122 R0I M14A 94V0 Serial Number 1518 i know i looks like an EGA card, but it doesn't even try to initialize a monitor on the rca jacks or the 9-pin port... UNQUOTE The ROM (AM27S29PC, 512x8 bipolar PROM) has a label that says "GENESIS 7-11-84" I did some research on Audio Visual Laboratories and apparently they are related to the old Eagle computer people. According to Wikipedia, Eagle had a relationship with Corvus for hard drives and backup so I am thinking this board *may* be a Corvus XT Mirror board relabeled by AVL. That is a guess though. http://n8vem-sbc.pbwiki.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=AVL Does anyone recognize this board? Does anyone have software and/or documentation for the Corvus IBM XT Mirror? I already checked bitsavers.org and Howard's archive. They mention the existence of an "IBM XT Mirror" board but almost no other information on it. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 27 20:51:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:51:16 -0700 Subject: Possible Corvus IBM XT Mirror? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F5FEA4.2893.54AA3B07@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2009 at 21:03, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Does anyone recognize this board? Does anyone have software and/or > documentation for the Corvus IBM XT Mirror? I already checked > bitsavers.org and Howard's archive. They mention the existence of an > "IBM XT Mirror" board but almost no other information on it. The name "Genesis" rang a bell and it took a little searching: http://www.herriott-sadler.co.uk/business/toolkit/avl.htm Slide projector control system. Apparently still used--search for "AVL Genesis". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 27 21:02:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:02:54 -0700 Subject: Possible Corvus IBM XT Mirror? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F6015E.1329.54B4DC47@cclist.sydex.com> Here's one that sold on eBay recently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160322759943 Look familiar? --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 27 23:50:03 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:50:03 -0700 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:44:18 -0700 > Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Jim Battle wrote: >> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> >>> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> >>>> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >>>> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit >>>> would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, >>>> and play back this converted sound. >>> >>> [snip] >>>> >>>> I *want* one of these...! >>> >>> It was published in Electronic Design magazine: >>> >>> "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) >>> Pease, Bob >>> Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 >>> >>> I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, >>> LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of Rs >>> and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or similar >>> -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or similar >>> -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). >> >> http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html >> > > Saw this in the news today: > > Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley > http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 Hi I found it interesting but I do know what a LM337 is. I've had the honor to have lunch with Bob once. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_042009 From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 28 00:43:30 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:43:30 +0100 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: I just downloaded it with no problem And this is what you do.... 1. Register for the site. 2. Select the document and click download 3. Select the pdf option 4. Sit and wait.. (Watch the network activity not your screen) 5. It gets downloaded into your pdf reader (acrobat) 6. Save the pdf document as normal 7. And there you have it! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: 25 April 2009 21:45 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > >Subject: RE: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:20:28 -0400 > To: > >We'll see what Steve has to say about it. I think he has those books for >sale, doesn't he? > >I used to have my secretary xerox his columns (no, I didn't cut out of my >Byte magazines, though that collection has long since been deep-sixed) but I >don't know whether I still have those copies - probably "somewhere" but I'll >be damned if I know where that "somewhere" is. > >I've built a number of Steve's projects. In my workshop a few days ago I saw >his EEG project waiting to be revived. > >But there is so much to do.... > >Vern Wright > > > >-----REPLY----- > >Hi! Steve and Sean generously released BYOZ80C to allow online publishing. >I very much enjoyed his book and commend him for both writing it in the >first place and also releasing it so as to help keep the home brew computing >tradition alive. > >http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > >You can see the full description of the release statement on the first page. > >Thanks and have a nice day! > >Andrew Lynch Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document it plain doesnt do it. Sites like this have a habit of disappearing and taking the content with it. Far too much stuff has gone lost over the years. Allison From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Apr 28 03:20:23 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:20:23 -0700 Subject: What kind of IC is this LM337 References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001101c9c7da$2d863d60$0201a8c0@hal9000> Dwight, The LM337 is a 3-terminal negative adjustable regulator. It supplies in excess of 1.5A over an output voltage range of -1.2V to - 37V. This regulator requires only two external resistor to set the output voltage. Included on the chip are current limiting, thermal overload protection and safe area compensation. Best regards, Steven ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:44:18 -0700 > Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Jim Battle wrote: >> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> >>> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> >>>> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >>>> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit >>>> would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, >>>> and play back this converted sound. >>> >>> [snip] >>>> >>>> I *want* one of these...! >>> >>> It was published in Electronic Design magazine: >>> >>> "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) >>> Pease, Bob >>> Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 >>> >>> I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, >>> LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of Rs >>> and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or similar >>> -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or similar >>> -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). >> >> http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html >> > > Saw this in the news today: > > Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley > http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 Hi I found it interesting but I do know what a LM337 is. I've had the honor to have lunch with Bob once. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 04:04:50 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:04:50 -0400 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley >> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 > > Hi > ?I found it interesting but I do know what a LM337 is. As do I. > I've had the honor to have lunch with Bob once. Nice. I've been reading his columns since I don't remember when (early 1990s?) I always learn something. I wonder what he'll be doing next. -ethan From mike at fenz.net Tue Apr 28 05:21:16 2009 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:21:16 +1200 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <49F5F151.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49F5835A.5000800@dunnington.plus.com> <49F58A34.7000702@fenz.net> <49F5F151.2050401@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49F6D89C.80603@fenz.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I remember that. Was it AppleWriter? I had an Exidy Sorcerer at the > time, with the Word Processor Pac, and that had proper lower case, so > I never much bothered with the Apple for WP. I still have my copy of > Visicalc, though! > Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the word processor - just too long ago! I do have all my software, I might see if I can find it and give it a try. I just regret not keeping the II+ I had at the time. Can't keep everything I guess (though looking at my basement, it looks like I'm trying). Mike. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Apr 28 05:40:57 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:40:57 +0100 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 11:21 -0400, Allison wrote: > I went to the mac using safari and that worked. Firfox on the NT4 box, > Ubuntu8.04 and even Ubuntu 9.04 however clicking the down load button > was a do nothing from Firefox. Firefox on Linux, the "download" link works but the box with the actual link is rendered "under" the Flash window. If you block the Flash player then you can download it. Maybe we should throw a copy on bitsavers? Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 28 08:44:49 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:44:49 -0700 Subject: What kind of IC is this LM337 In-Reply-To: <001101c9c7da$2d863d60$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> <001101c9c7da$2d863d60$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this LM337 > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:20:23 -0700 > > Dwight, > > The LM337 is a 3-terminal negative adjustable regulator. It > supplies in excess of 1.5A over an output voltage range of > -1.2V to - 37V. This regulator requires only two external > resistor to set the output voltage. Included on the chip are > current limiting, thermal overload protection and safe area > compensation. > > Best regards, Steven Hi As I said, I knew that. It is the negative voltage compliment of the LM317. Dwight > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:44:18 -0700 >> Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this >> From: glen.slick at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Jim Battle wrote: >>> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>>> >>>> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >>>>> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this > circuit >>>>> would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio > frequency, >>>>> and play back this converted sound. >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>> I *want* one of these...! >>>> >>>> It was published in Electronic Design magazine: >>>> >>>> "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) >>>> Pease, Bob >>>> Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 >>>> >>>> I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, >>>> LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful > of Rs >>>> and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or > similar >>>> -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or > similar >>>> -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). >>> >>> http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html >>> >> >> Saw this in the news today: >> >> Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley >> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 > > Hi > I found it interesting but I do know what a LM337 is. > I've had the honor to have lunch with Bob once. > Dwight > _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates2_042009 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 28 10:27:49 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:27:49 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> References: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49F72075.1050306@bitsavers.org> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Maybe we should throw a copy on bitsavers? > nope.. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Apr 28 10:31:08 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:31:08 -0700 Subject: What kind of IC is this LM337 References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> <1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> <001101c9c7da$2d863d60$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000901c9c816$5a7bfa80$0201a8c0@hal9000> Dwight, My humblest apologies, I had misread your post. Maybe I shouldn't read these at 2:00 AM !! Sorry. Best regards, Steven > > Dwight, > > The LM337 is a 3-terminal negative adjustable regulator. It > supplies in excess of 1.5A over an output voltage range of > -1.2V to - 37V. This regulator requires only two external > resistor to set the output voltage. Included on the chip are > current limiting, thermal overload protection and safe area > compensation. > > Best regards, Steven Hi As I said, I knew that. It is the negative voltage compliment of the LM317. Dwight > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:44:18 -0700 >> Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this >> From: glen.slick at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Jim Battle wrote: >>> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>>> >>>> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >>>>> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this > circuit >>>>> would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio > frequency, >>>>> and play back this converted sound. >>>> >>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>> I *want* one of these...! >>>> >>>> It was published in Electronic Design magazine: >>>> >>>> "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) >>>> Pease, Bob >>>> Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 >>>> >>>> I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, >>>> LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful > of Rs >>>> and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or > similar >>>> -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or > similar >>>> -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). >>> >>> http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html >>> >> >> Saw this in the news today: >> >> Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley >> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 > > Hi > I found it interesting but I do know what a LM337 is. > I've had the honor to have lunch with Bob once. > Dwight > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Apr 28 10:55:47 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:55:47 +0100 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <49F72075.1050306@bitsavers.org> References: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> <49F72075.1050306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1240934147.5870.16.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 08:27 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > > Maybe we should throw a copy on bitsavers? > > > > nope.. > Okay, I guess it's your server, and you make the rules. I suppose one publication that's scanned, PDFed and available online with the author's blessing would look odd alongside gigabytes of questionably-legal scans. Gordon From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 28 11:18:21 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:18:21 -0500 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <1240934147.5870.16.camel@elric> References: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> <49F72075.1050306@bitsavers.org> <1240934147.5870.16.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49F72C4D.2090804@pacbell.net> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 08:27 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >> >>> Maybe we should throw a copy on bitsavers? >>> >> nope.. >> > > Okay, I guess it's your server, and you make the rules. > > I suppose one publication that's scanned, PDFed and available online > with the author's blessing would look odd alongside gigabytes of > questionably-legal scans. Gordon, Just because you have an interest in it doesn't mean Al has to do your bidding. He collects what he wants to collect. He has no obligation to collect things he isn't interested in. And I suppose you have refrained from ever taking advantage of Al's hard work and have never used information from his site or its mirrors, seeing as how you have a sincere concern about the legal status of the documents there. If you have availed yourself of the docs there, then you are simply a snarky putz to have said what you just did. From jonas at otter.se Tue Apr 28 10:03:36 2009 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:03:36 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 68, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/26/2009, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:27:20 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Subject: Re: Transistors... >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain > >> > If you wire two diodes in series (PN->NP), it isn't the same as a >> > transistor (PNP), at all. >> >> It is. A PNP is just the same thing as a PN-+-NP. > >In one sense it is, but I can assure you that if you connect 2 diodes >together in this way (no matter what sort of diodes you use), you will >not get a transistor. The resulting circuit will not show any current gain. > >IIRC, what you need is a sufficiently thin base region (the 'N' in the >example you gave) that electron-hole recombination does not occur. You >can't join 2 n-type pieces with a bit of wire and get this. > >> possible space wise anyway, not even considering characteristics. But >> that don't change the fact that you get a working transistor with just >> two diodes. > Excuse the bluntness, but that is utter and complete bollocks. You do *not* get a transistor with two diodes. Tony's comment above is correct, for a transistor to work, the base needs to be thin enough that electron-hole recombination does not occur (to any significant degree at least). Two diodes connected back to back will never be anything but two diodes connected back to back. No current gain *at all*. >I am not convinces. If you have got this to work, can you please tell me >what sort of diodes you used, and I will try to recreate it (if I see it >working on my bench, I'll be convinced!) > >-tony > /Jonas From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 06:38:44 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Possible Corvus IBM XT Mirror? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! I recently obtained a "mystery" IBM PC board. It has a Z80 CPU, two > CTCs, 8K of SRAM, and a bunch of 74LS logic. I *suspect* this board is one > of those VCR backup boards from the early 1980's. A few years back I had an Alpha Micro VCR backup board, but could never find software or docs for it. Sellam ended up buying it for one of his restoration projects. I still have a "no name" VCR adapter somewhere. IIRC, the manufacturer was Russian. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 08:09:40 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >> >> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >> it plain doesnt do it. > > Worked perectly here. Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on all platforms. Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to actually get my hands on the PDF? Steve -- From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 28 11:42:46 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:42:46 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <49F72C4D.2090804@pacbell.net> References: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> <49F72075.1050306@bitsavers.org> <1240934147.5870.16.camel@elric> <49F72C4D.2090804@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49F73206.5040701@bitsavers.org> My apologies for the previous post. I've found in the past it is generally best not to comment at all on what should or shouldn't be on bitsavers in a public forum. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 28 11:43:13 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:43:13 -0500 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> Message-ID: <49F73221.40709@pacbell.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer ... > Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 > under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on > all platforms. IE6 XP worked for me -- well, I get to the "sign in or sign up" screen that is required before downloading, and I don't care to. FF3 under XP worked as well. One thing to note -- the control to download wasn't live until the entire document appeared to have streamed to completion. When you load the page do you see a progress bar showing the streaming of the document? Back in 1985, just after graduating college, I bought this book and I started drawing up my own plans for making my own Z80 computer. The book didn't really have any information that I didn't already know, but it still served as a catalyst to do something instead of just thinking about it. A few days into my design, I noticed that a 68000 cost about $15, which admittedly was 10x the cost of a Z80, but the difference was mice nuts in absolute terms. So I built a 68K machine instead. Although I never did anything with the computer once I had developed the monitor, it was probably responsible for me getting my next job. From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 12:03:21 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202523.44907.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I don't have a magic decoder ring - my Captain Midnight decoder got lost about 55 years ago :< But I have an account on scribd. So I logged in; it's a little slow but be patient. (BTW, configuration is Windoze x64, Firefox 3.01, Comodo firewall.) Logged in, push the download button above the panel showing the cover of the book. This leads you to the only option I saw - Acrobat .pdf. Click on that and it opens the book in Acrobat Reader (the way my Firefox is set up - it can also be set up NOT to open in Acrobat Reader - which is a change I intend to make, as Acrobat is as hole-ful as Word). Anyway, with it open in Acrobat, just save a copy (it's numbers, I renamed it to the title of the book and put it in another subdirectory than the Windoze My Documents). Yes, I think it ought to be put on Bitsavers; I doubt Steve would have any objection, I didn't get the feeling that he released it ONLY to scribdb. I think highly of scribdb as a useful site. But I haven't tried it on an ordinary XP, or NT, or Linux - just haven't had the occasion to. Vern Wright --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Steven Hirsch wrote: > From: Steven Hirsch > Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 6:09 AM > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: > > >>> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer > >> > >> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of > down loadable document > >> it plain doesnt do it. > > > > Worked perectly here. > > Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 > Ubuntu and IE6 under Windows XP. In fact, most of the > controls are nonresponsive on all platforms. > > Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings > required to actually get my hands on the PDF? > > Steve > > > -- From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 12:17:40 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:17:40 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> Message-ID: <49F73A34.3040006@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: > >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >>> >>> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >>> it plain doesnt do it. >> >> Worked perectly here. > > Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 > under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on > all platforms. > > Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to > actually get my hands on the PDF? Do you have Flash installed? Peace... Sridhar From ray at arachelian.com Tue Apr 28 12:24:51 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:24:51 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <49F73221.40709@pacbell.net> References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> <49F73221.40709@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49F73BE3.8030103@arachelian.com> Jim Battle wrote: > IE6 XP worked for me -- well, I get to the "sign in or sign up" screen > that is required before downloading, and I don't care to. If you dislike registering because you don't wish to receive junk emails you can create an account using a mailinator address. {anything}@mailinator.com can be used as a junk sink. When they email the URL to follow to let you in, go pick it up from mailinator and don't bother with it again. You can always try bugmenot for a common login: http://www.bugmenot.com/view/scribd.com Yes, jumping through hoops to get at a file you want is annoying. But there are ways around it. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Apr 28 12:31:24 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:31:24 +0100 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <49F72C4D.2090804@pacbell.net> References: <0KIP00CIFRXVFD69@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> <1240915257.5870.9.camel@elric> <49F72075.1050306@bitsavers.org> <1240934147.5870.16.camel@elric> <49F72C4D.2090804@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1240939884.5870.19.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 11:18 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > > If you have availed yourself of the docs there, then you are simply a > snarky putz to have said what you just did. > The comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek, although I suppose it's hard to express that in 7-bit ASCII. As it happens, I don't think I've ever used any of the docs from bitsavers.org - I've been fortunate enough to have usable manuals with the classics I've had. Gordon From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 28 12:33:57 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:33:57 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <49F73A34.3040006@gmail.com> References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <49F73A34.3040006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200904281333.57965.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 28 April 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu > > and IE6 under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are > > nonresponsive on all platforms. > > > > Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required > > to actually get my hands on the PDF? > > Do you have Flash installed? As Gordon noted, Flash is actually the problem... firefox (at least everywhere I've ever used it, which I guess is mostly just Debian) draws pop-up menus on pages behind plugins (flash, or otherwise). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 28 12:41:49 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:41:49 -0500 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 4/28/09, Jonas wrote: >Two diodes connected back to back will never be anything but two diodes >connected back to back. No current gain *at all*. Is 1.0 (as in, output current = base current times 1.0) a "gain"? I suppose it's a legitimate value of hfe (I grant, it's not a useful value). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 28 12:44:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:44:40 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <202523.44907.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: , <202523.44907.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49F6DE18.769.5813434D@cclist.sydex.com> If you've got a scribd account, try the following link instead: http://www.scribd.com/document_downloads/13388965?extension=pdf&secret _password= Believe it or not, I actually got the document downloaded using the OffByOne browser--about as brain-dead a browser as one can find nowadays. I had to change the extension of the saved file from .htm to .pdf, but it worked just fine. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 28 13:07:13 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:07:13 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <202523.44907.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <202523.44907.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vernon Wright > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:03 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > > Yes, I think it ought to be put on Bitsavers; I doubt Steve would have > any objection, I didn't get the feeling that he released it ONLY to > scribdb. > Respectfully, feelings and opinions don't translate into copyright law. IANAL, but I will suggest one reason Ciarcia might have allowed scribdb to host his publications. I note that scribdb is a site heavy in advertising. Supposedly "free" objects are often actually generating revenue - for someone - through such advertising. So it may be that this is a business venture - and a perfectly legitimate one that I am not criticizing - and that Ciarcia really WOULD object to these volumes being posted on a purely non-profit, public-service site (thanks, Al!). If someone is really interested in seeing these hosted somewhere else, my suggestion would be to ASK THE AUTHOR. Speculating on this list is not a substitute. -- Ian From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 28 13:31:35 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:31:35 +0100 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net><48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> Message-ID: And this is what you do.... 1. Register for the site. 2. Select the document and click download 3. Select the pdf option 4. Sit and wait.. (Watch the network activity not your screen) 5. It gets downloaded into your pdf reader (acrobat) 6. Save the pdf document as normal 7. And there you have it! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch Sent: 28 April 2009 14:10 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >> >> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >> it plain doesnt do it. > > Worked perectly here. Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on all platforms. Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to actually get my hands on the PDF? Steve -- From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 13:36:34 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an old 1U/2U server Message-ID: <683604.50875.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I could do with an older PC compatible rack mountable server - ie something around 400MHz clock speed. Anyone have anything available in the UK that they would like to get rid of? Its for testing performance on low end systems. Ian. From eeo at olsonbros.net Tue Apr 28 13:42:16 2009 From: eeo at olsonbros.net (Erik E. Olson) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:42:16 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200904281842.n3SIgHA5025442@omr1.networksolutionsemail.com> I just right-click on the pdf link and select save as. This way I don't have wait for the entire file to load before I save it. - Erik E. Olson -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:32 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar And this is what you do.... 1. Register for the site. 2. Select the document and click download 3. Select the pdf option 4. Sit and wait.. (Watch the network activity not your screen) 5. It gets downloaded into your pdf reader (acrobat) 6. Save the pdf document as normal 7. And there you have it! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch Sent: 28 April 2009 14:10 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >> >> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >> it plain doesnt do it. > > Worked perectly here. Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on all platforms. Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to actually get my hands on the PDF? Steve -- From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 28 13:54:48 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Mark Tapley wrote: > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:41:49 -0500 > From: Mark Tapley > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Transistors... > > At 12:00 -0500 4/28/09, Jonas wrote: >> Two diodes connected back to back will never be anything but two diodes >> connected back to back. No current gain *at all*. > > Is 1.0 (as in, output current = base current times 1.0) a "gain"? I suppose > it's a legitimate value of hfe (I grant, it's not a useful value). > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- A current gain of one could be useful if you had power gain, something you will not have with two diodes.... Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 28 14:43:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:43:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Apr 28, 9 11:54:48 am Message-ID: > A current gain of one could be useful if you had power gain, something you > will not have with two diodes.... For example a common-base amplifier (using a real transistor, not a pair of diodes, of course) -tony From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Apr 28 14:55:18 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:55:18 +0100 Subject: Looking for an old 1U/2U server In-Reply-To: <683604.50875.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <683604.50875.qm@web56207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1240948518.6370.4.camel@spasmo> I have a couple P3 grade 1U boxes of about 1GHz if they are any use. Toby On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 11:36 -0700, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I could do with an older PC compatible rack mountable > server - ie something around 400MHz clock speed. Anyone > have anything available in the UK that they would like > to get rid of? Its for testing performance on low > end systems. > > Ian. > > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Tue Apr 28 14:56:57 2009 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (dzubint at vcn.bc.ca) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an old 1U/2U server Message-ID: on Tue Apr 28 13:36:34 CDT 2009 silvercreekvalley wrote: ... > server - ie something around 400MHz clock speed. Anyone > have anything available in the UK that they would like > to get rid of? Its for testing performance on low > end systems. Wow ... 400MHz ... I'm not sure any of my classic computers are that fast. I have lots of 75-80MHz ones and a few 750KHz ones, but sorry nothing above 100MHz :-) From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 15:30:39 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <521024.64412.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > > > > Yes, I think it ought to be put on Bitsavers; I doubt > Steve would have > > any objection, I didn't get the feeling that he > released it ONLY to > > scribdb. > > > Respectfully, feelings and opinions don't translate > into copyright law. IANAL, but I will suggest one reason > Ciarcia might have allowed scribdb to host his publications. > I note that scribdb is a site heavy in advertising. > Supposedly "free" objects are often actually > generating revenue - for someone - through such advertising. > So it may be that this is a business venture - and a > perfectly legitimate one that I am not criticizing - and > that Ciarcia really WOULD object to these volumes being > posted on a purely non-profit, public-service site (thanks, > Al!). You're right. It is _possible_ that Steve made a business agreement. (Though I doubt it.) > If someone is really interested in seeing these hosted > somewhere else, my suggestion would be to ASK THE AUTHOR. > Speculating on this list is not a substitute. -- Ian I have to agree...though I believe that Steve would not object, there is nothing better than asking him. Though I got the idea that Bitsavers would prefer NOT to host this volume. And by now there must be so many copies floating among us that I should think that it will eventually be hosted by someone with a classic computer website. Vern Wright From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Apr 28 15:34:36 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:34:36 -0700 Subject: Transistors... References: Message-ID: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! / steven > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:41:49 -0500 > > From: Mark Tapley > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Transistors... > > > > At 12:00 -0500 4/28/09, Jonas wrote: > >> Two diodes connected back to back will never be anything but two diodes > >> connected back to back. No current gain *at all*. > > > > Is 1.0 (as in, output current = base current times 1.0) a "gain"? I suppose > > it's a legitimate value of hfe (I grant, it's not a useful value). > > -- > > - Mark 210-379-4635 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > A current gain of one could be useful if you had power gain, something you > will not have with two diodes.... > > > Peter Wallace From locutus at puscii.nl Tue Apr 28 15:41:28 2009 From: locutus at puscii.nl (locutus at puscii.nl) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:41:28 +0200 Subject: SGI Origin 2000 at the Univerity of Tilburg. Message-ID: <87ljpkh5on.wl%locutus@puscii.nl> First thing, this is not my machine, but someone i know who asked me to post this. -- Tilburg University in the Netherlands wants to get rid of an Origin 2000 sgi 2400. It consists of 3 cabinets of about 2 meters high; width about 22 inch. Out of the 4 panels present, 3 are still fully functional. Is has 48 GB RAM and 24 CPU's running at 200 MHz. It's free for anybody willing to arrange transportation. Please reply to joostvb+sgi at uvt.nl if you're interested. If you plan to use the machine for Free Software work, you'll get a priority handling :) Here's a picture of what these things look like: http://db313.ath.cx/~sp/auctions/SGI-O2000_main_large.jpg And here's a description of such a machine: http://cgi.ebay.com/Silicon-Graphics-SGI-Origin-2000-Full-Rack-Server-Runs!_W0QQitemZ330319141305QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090402?IMSfp=TL090402156004r12929#ebayphotohosting 3 racks, each of them is _probably_ : Width Height Depth Weight 71 cm 185 cm 102 cm 317 kg (28 inches) (73 inches) (40 inches) (700 lb) The racks have once been lifted by 6 strong man. --Joost van Baal, 2009-04-28 --------------- I think it allmost falls within the 10 year rule ;-) (origin's started shipping in what, 97?) From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 15:41:56 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar Message-ID: <787814.30238.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> OR, It IS possible, looking at the release statement (inserted below) in the .pdf, that scribdb and Andrew Lynch and Bill Bradford may have an interest in where the book is hosted. Dunno. Vern Wright "A Note about this book and its free availability online Readers are encouraged to download this book of design guidelines and application notes from Steve Ciarcia, founder and editorial director of Circuit Cellar magazine. Although the original title first appeared in 1981, pre-dating Circuit Cellar ?the magazine,? I still get a number of purchase requests each year from electronics enthusiasts. Some are just interested in Steve?s brand of designing and ability to overcome obstacles, while others still find themselves tweaking projects that use parts described in Steve?s projects. Please note: The original work was only available as a hard copy. Thanks to Andrew Lynch and Bill Bradford for their work in creating the PDF and getting permission from copyright holder Steve Ciarcia to release it. Scanning done by Bill Bradford. You will be pleased to know that the same style of embedded computing articles can be found each month through Circuit Cellar magazine. Please visit www.circuitcellar.com to learn about this monthly resource for professional designers and electronics enthusiasts alike. Please enjoy ?Build Your Own Z80 Computer? as a great blast from the past. Its style is the foundation on which Circuit Cellar magazine was built and continues to grow. I look forward to seeing you become a part of the ongoing Circuit Cellar success story. Sincerely, Sean Donnelly, Publisher ? Circuit Cellar circuitcellar at circuitcellar.com" From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 28 15:45:50 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Scanning wrote: > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:34:36 -0700 > From: Scanning > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Transistors... > > A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! > > / steven True, but this is about current gain , for example a transistor with a current gain of 1 might switch 50V at one amp with an input of .7V at 1 A giving a power gain of ~70. Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 28 15:52:58 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:52:58 -0700 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: , <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <49F70A3A.25819.58BFA9D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2009 at 13:34, Scanning wrote: > A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! > > / steven ...and a cathode/emitter follower has a gain of less than 1. Doesn't make it any less useful--nor can it be implemented with just two diodes. --Chuck From lists at databasics.us Tue Apr 28 17:15:28 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:15:28 -1000 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <49F78000.6090408@databasics.us> Scanning wrote: > A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! Well.... ALMOST. Warren (picking those last tiny nits...) From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Apr 28 17:31:10 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:31:10 -0400 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <49F783AE.2040409@nktelco.net> Scanning wrote: > A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! > > / steven > Actually a wire has losses... From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Apr 28 17:51:03 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:51:03 -0500 Subject: Circuits good enough to eat Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090428174630.03b07ff8@localhost> I'd love this just for the url. But it's better than that. Edible circuits! Combining two of my best things. http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/circuitsnacks ----- 454. [Humor] I played a blank tape on full volume. The mime who lived next door complained. So I shot him with a gun with a silencer. --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 18:19:54 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:19:54 -0400 Subject: Possible Corvus IBM XT Mirror Message-ID: <2E6F79506E1843349F1FD615B5309643@andrewdesktop> Here's one that sold on eBay recently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160322759943 Look familiar? --Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi! Thanks Chuck! Yes, the PCB pictured is almost exactly the same as mine. Mystery Solved! Thanks! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Apr 28 18:53:52 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:53:52 +0200 Subject: laser scope In-Reply-To: References: <49C72790.2010902@pacbell.net> <200903231717.27763.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <001101c9abe1$192adac0$0201a8c0@hal9000> <49C81AEB.5050306@feedle.net> <20090323170428.E93974@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49F79710.3050106@ifi.uio.no> William Donzelli wrote: >> Same goes for the word "hacker". >> > > Anyone that uses the old definition of "hacker" these days is a fool. > I think you will find that to my delight there are quite a lot of fools left in the world! :) It seems to be a word much like "the N-word" (bowdlerized for your comfort) in modern culture; a word with two completely disparate meanings based on what social context it is used in - out-group or in-group. I still call clever people "hackers" if I know that the people I hang out with will understand what I mean. But I "hack something together" no matter who I'm hanging around. -Tore :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 28 19:00:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:00:03 -0400 Subject: laser scope In-Reply-To: <49F79710.3050106@ifi.uio.no> References: <49C72790.2010902@pacbell.net> <200903231717.27763.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <001101c9abe1$192adac0$0201a8c0@hal9000> <49C81AEB.5050306@feedle.net> <20090323170428.E93974@shell.lmi.net> <49F79710.3050106@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: On Apr 28, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: >>> Same goes for the word "hacker". >>> >> >> Anyone that uses the old definition of "hacker" these days is a fool. >> > I think you will find that to my delight there are quite a lot of > fools left in the world! :) > > It seems to be a word much like "the N-word" (bowdlerized for your > comfort) in modern culture; a word with two completely disparate > meanings based on what social context it is used in - out-group or > in-group. > > I still call clever people "hackers" if I know that the people I > hang out with will understand what I mean. But I "hack something > together" no matter who I'm hanging around. Pretty much everyone I know uses "hacker" in the old definition. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Apr 28 19:06:37 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:06:37 +0200 Subject: What to use a 4.5" B&W TV for? In-Reply-To: <20090324075315.GA21051@Update.UU.SE> References: <200903231721.07240.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <20090324074415.GA16651@Update.UU.SE> <20090324075315.GA21051@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <49F79A0D.4050302@ifi.uio.no> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I saw one fellow create a one inch terminal from the crt in a camcorder. >> I can't find that link now :( But I found this, it could perhaps give >> you some ideas: >> >> http://heraclion.co.uk/public/muse/clockshow.JPG >> >> > > > Heh, I did find it the second after I posted the mail: > > http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/bchafy/tiny/tinyterminal.html > That viewfinder is taken from a semiprofessional video camera, the JVC KY-1900; I have one. It's a three-tube camera, a fairly decent camera, if given enough light. It's great fun to have a camera which will make everything it captures look as if it was made in the 1980s. There is an undefinable characteristic about it which is instantly recognizeable. It's way out of registration, however. If anyone on the list knows how to set up a three-tube camera, please do contact me off-list...! -Tore :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 28 19:07:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:07:20 -0600 Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <000f01c9c840$bf1a3e00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <49F79A38.5010000@jetnet.ab.ca> Scanning wrote: > A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! umm .999999 :) > / steven > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Apr 28 23:03:03 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:03:03 -0400 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F7D177.4080705@hawkmountain.net> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Richard wrote: > >> I think this is a 680x0 based Apollo, right? > > 12 MHz 68020. > > The DN3000 was perhaps the best selling DOMAIN workstation Apollo ever > made, but for some reason it's not one of the models I already have in > my collection. Plus, it's local... so, I bid. > > ok > bear > Did you (or anyone else from here) win ? I bid on it... but it got 'too rich' for me (at this time anyway). Despite being in Apollo's home state.... it is one vendor completely missing in my 'collection'. -- Curt From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Apr 28 23:19:36 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:19:36 -0700 Subject: Apollo Domain 3000 on ebay In-Reply-To: <49F7D177.4080705@hawkmountain.net> References: <49F7D177.4080705@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <49F7D558.7050008@mail.msu.edu> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > r.stricklin wrote: >> >> On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Richard wrote: >> >>> I think this is a 680x0 based Apollo, right? >> >> 12 MHz 68020. >> >> The DN3000 was perhaps the best selling DOMAIN workstation Apollo >> ever made, but for some reason it's not one of the models I already >> have in my collection. Plus, it's local... so, I bid. >> >> ok >> bear >> > Did you (or anyone else from here) win ? > > I bid on it... but it got 'too rich' for me (at this time anyway). > > Despite being in Apollo's home state.... it is one vendor completely > missing in > my 'collection'. > > -- Curt > It was me. (Sorry bear -- didn't see your mail or I (probably :)) wouldn't have bid against you). That was a bit more than I wanted to pay, but I couldn't pass it up. Seems to be complete (missing a few screws). Powers up and announces it has failed the keyboard diagnostic (expected, since I have no keyboard.) Hard drive is unfortunately a Micropolis 1325 (same as an RD53) which means that it's got about a 90% chance of not working without some fiddling, and even then... it does spin up, though. Now I just need a Domain keyboard (there are 7 listed on eBay, but they're $50 w/shipping -- ebay item 1402866261901). And maybe a mouse. And some OS media... Josh From jrr at flippers.com Tue Apr 28 11:40:06 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:40:06 -0700 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> Message-ID: <49F73166.1050000@flippers.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: > >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >>> >>> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >>> it plain doesnt do it. >> >> Worked perectly here. > > Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and > IE6 under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive > on all platforms. > > Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to > actually get my hands on the PDF? > > Steve > > Make sure that popups aren't blocked, and that NoScript allows www.scribd.com & quantserv.com, you will also need to set up a free account with the server. I had no trouble downloading with OS-X 10.5.6 & Firefox 3.0.8 John :-#)# From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Apr 28 11:47:41 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:47:41 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de><2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com><6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com><200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net><49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net><1e1fc3e90904271244w671c582ch3c101732f0dca0fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <029401c9c821$0d22f300$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 4:04 AM Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Departure of chip-design legend Bob Pease prompts outpouring in valley >> http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12167632 > > Hi > I found it interesting but I do know what a LM337 is. As do I. > I've had the honor to have lunch with Bob once. Nice. I've been reading his columns since I don't remember when (early 1990s?) I always learn something. I wonder what he'll be doing next. -ethan This is pretty sad, whatever the reason. Though I don't consider myself much of an analog guy, he has been one of my heroes for a long time. I've read and saved his "What's all this...?" columns from Electronics Design magazine for many years to the point that I now have several notebooks full of them. I do go back and read some of them occasionally and find them just as fascinating on the Nth reading as I did the first time. Charlie Carothers From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Apr 28 12:06:00 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:06:00 -0500 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net><48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> Message-ID: <029801c9c823$9d026440$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: > >>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >>> >>> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >>> it plain doesnt do it. >> >> Worked perectly here. > > Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 > under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on all > platforms. > > Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to > actually get my hands on the PDF? > > Steve > > > -- Running Firefox 3.09 under XP-MCE here. Just above and to the right of the "1/206" page indicator is a button labeled "Download". I just left-clicked that, then in the box it popped up I left-clicked the "Adobe acrobat (.pdf)" link. This brought it up in a "pdf-viewer" web page. Clicking the "floppy" symbol on that page I was able to save it to my desktop. It saved it as the 13388965.pdf file. I just did it again to be sure this sequence works. The file is about 12.4MB. Hope this helps. Charlie Carothers From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 17:05:45 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: <49F73166.1050000@flippers.com> References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> <49F73166.1050000@flippers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, John Robertson wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Lance Lyon wrote: >> >>>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/13388965/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer >>>> >>>> Also a most useless site. Despite all claims of down loadable document >>>> it plain doesnt do it. >>> >>> Worked perectly here. >> >> Download link dead on Firefox 3 under x86_64 Ubuntu, i386 Ubuntu and IE6 >> under Windows XP. In fact, most of the controls are nonresponsive on all >> platforms. >> >> Would anyone care to share the magic decoder ring settings required to >> actually get my hands on the PDF? >> >> Steve >> >> > Make sure that popups aren't blocked, They are not > and that NoScript allows What is "NoScript"? Never heard of it. > www.scribd.com & quantserv.com, you will also need to set up a free > account with the server. I had no trouble downloading with OS-X 10.5.6 & > Firefox 3.0.8 Ok, finally got it. - Nowhere, but nowhere does it say you cannot download without an account. Didn't even turn this tidbit up on a Google search. - Firefox 3.0 on Ubuntu Hardy x86_64 does not work at all. No response to the download button. - In desperation, I fired up IE6 in a VMware XP session and that finally cooperated. I love standards, everybody needs their own. Thanks for the tips, all! Steve -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 28 21:30:46 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:30:46 -0400 Subject: Transistors... Message-ID: <0KIU006D8C8TGARD@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Transistors... > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:07:20 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Scanning wrote: >> A friggin piece of wire has a gain of 1 !!!! >umm .999999 :) >> / steven > Voltage gain, Current gain, or power gain? Common base transistor has current gain of .99999.. and voltage gain >1 as well as power gain. Wire is .9999999.. for all those. Allison From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 29 03:32:44 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:32:44 +0100 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> <49F73166.1050000@flippers.com> Message-ID: <1240993964.13920.38.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 18:05 -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > - Nowhere, but nowhere does it say you cannot download without an account. > Didn't even turn this tidbit up on a Google search. I downloaded it and I don't have an account... Gordon From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Apr 29 07:02:53 2009 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:02:53 -0400 Subject: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar In-Reply-To: References: <0KIO008MAC7Z6I8G@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <48FED5BEBA3149F09DB60FDE62118D97@lance> <49F73166.1050000@flippers.com> Message-ID: <49F841ED.6040105@attglobal.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: >> and that NoScript allows > > What is "NoScript"? Never heard of it. http://noscript.net/ It's an extension to Firefox that doesn't allow any javascript, flash or other nasties to execute without your permission. I use it and it works very well. Barry From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 09:25:50 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:25:50 +0200 Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands References: <1240932517.3974.16.camel@acer> Message-ID: <3906FD1F-3FAA-4F32-BE71-FA8718B97122@gmail.com> Someone with more room to spare than I have, please rescue this machine! Begin forwarded message: > Resent-From: debian-mips at lists.debian.org > From: Joost van Baal > Date: April 28, 2009 15:26:14 GMT+02:00 > To: debian-mips at lists.debian.org > Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands > > > Hi, > > Tilburg University in the Netherlands wants to get rid of an Origin > 2000 sgi > 2400. It consists of 3 cabinets of about 2 meters high; width about > 22 inch. > Out of the 4 panels present, 3 are still fully functional. Is has > 48 GB RAM > and 24 CPU's running at 200 MHz. It's free for anybody willing to > arrange > transportation. Please reply to joostvb+sgi at uvt.nl if you're > interested (I am > not subscribed to this list). If you plan to use the machine for > Free Software > work, you'll get a priority handling :) > > Bye, > > Joost .tsooJ -- I got kicked out of Barnes & Noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section -- Joost van de Griek From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 29 10:15:04 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:15:04 +0200 Subject: HP 2564B "line printer" available in UK Message-ID: <218EA9BB945B4CEA99D14236C89B6D80@xp1800> It's for free or cost of shipping and living in Aberdeen, so if any one wants it, contact : chas at cmac-sys.co.uk -Rik From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 12:45:47 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:45:47 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? Message-ID: Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a machine room in a mobile home type trailer? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 13:02:15 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:02:15 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> Not a machine shop, but maybe the same sorts of problems... I've seen two wood shop trailer concepts. Both were actual trailers, not mobile homes. One was open to the outside where the top of the trailer was about waist-high. It had a number of machines that folded out and hatches that could open. Sounds like a weather nightmare to me. The other one was a converted horse trailer iirc. It had machines along one wall and enough space to walk down the other wall. Seemed tight but workable. My main concern would be the amount of weight the floors could support. Going off-topic for a minute, I'm very interested in frugal living (although I don't always live it) and I've been trying to think of unique ways to get a house without a mortgage. One way was to use shipping containers. The trade deficit has made them very cheap. And they're indestructible. You can stack them 5 or 6 high, even when loaded. Some are also temperature controlled so they're insulated. Most have hardwood floors also. I also considered mobile homes. I thought that it would be interesting to buy some land somewhere where the government officials will leave me alone, then acquire four single-wide mobile homes. I'd arrange them in a square and build a covered deck in the middle. Gut the interiors. Turn one into a kitchen/diningroom/livingroom, another one into a master bedroom/bathroom, another for the kids rooms, etc. Since I have a full wood shop, I thought about turning one of them into a wood shop. When I talk about this, my wife just rolls her eyes, lol. Of course, the way the economy is going, this is starting to sound like a great idea. :-/ brian On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Richard wrote: > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? ? ? > > ? ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 13:12:03 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:12:03 +0200 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 19:45, Richard wrote: > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? > Does that count ? http://www.sun.com/products/sunmd/s20/ -- Stephane Paris, France. From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 13:19:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:19:03 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904291119s6197b1f0n1c6251aa7a51018d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > Not a machine shop, but maybe the same sorts of problems... Leave it to me to think that someone means a machine shop when really they're talking about computers. It's not like this is a computer related list or anything. :-P brian From steve at radiorobots.com Wed Apr 29 13:23:36 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:23:36 -0400 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F89B28.7050205@radiorobots.com> Richard wrote: > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? > > Have done it in portable shelters for environmental and oceanographic monitoring gear. In a mobile home a good first step would be to get prints, if you can. Also useful to know how many machines for power consumption, heat load, etc. Some of what comes out of this is obvious, some less so. Steve From ray at arachelian.com Wed Apr 29 13:32:36 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:32:36 -0400 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F89D44.60307@arachelian.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > I also considered mobile homes. I thought that it would be > interesting to buy some land somewhere where the government officials > will leave me alone, then acquire four single-wide mobile homes. I'd > arrange them in a square and build a covered deck in the middle. > (slaps forehead!) So that's how this: http://www.strangefunkidz.com/images/content/135744.jpg got started. :-) From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Apr 29 13:37:18 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: Schematic for NRI 832 Message-ID: <96F39673-DB88-4B69-9F4A-BE6731F27C47@colourfull.com> Hi All, Does anyone have a schematic for the NRI 832 computer? (scan of adv at http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/ads_sinclair_watch.jpg) Thanks Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 13:41:52 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:41:52 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <49F89D44.60307@arachelian.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <49F89D44.60307@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904291141r2b45d376w49fc6e66c341f9f1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > (slaps forehead!) ?So that's how this: > http://www.strangefunkidz.com/images/content/135744.jpg ?got started. :-) lol I've seen it before. My wife pointed that out to me once I described the square. I still think it's a great idea. brian From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 29 13:41:51 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Schematic for NRI 832 In-Reply-To: <96F39673-DB88-4B69-9F4A-BE6731F27C47@colourfull.com> References: <96F39673-DB88-4B69-9F4A-BE6731F27C47@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone have a schematic for the NRI 832 computer? > > (scan of adv at > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/ads_sinclair_watch.jpg) > Looks like a calculator watch, not a computer. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. OpenQM - A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://gpl.openqm.com - Get it _today_! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Apr 29 13:42:17 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:42:17 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Schematic for NRI 832 References: <96F39673-DB88-4B69-9F4A-BE6731F27C47@colourfull.com> Message-ID: Sorry. Wrong link for adv http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/nri_832_computer.pdf Begin forwarded message: > From: Robert Borsuk > Date: April 29, 2009 2:37:18 PM GMT-04:00 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Schematic for NRI 832 > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Hi All, > Does anyone have a schematic for the NRI 832 computer? > > (scan of adv at http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay_2009/ads_sinclair_watch.jpg) > > Thanks > Rob > > > > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Apr 29 13:47:43 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:47:43 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 right link Message-ID: <8DBB792B-3859-456C-8FAC-28358892E853@colourfull.com> Hi All, I resent the message with an adjusted link. Never got through though. Here it is http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/nri_832_computer.pdf Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 29 13:50:48 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transistors... In-Reply-To: <0KIU006D8C8TGARD@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KIU006D8C8TGARD@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20090429114702.Q13340@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Allison wrote: > Common base transistor has current gain of .99999.. and voltage gain >1 as > well as power gain. Wire is .9999999.. for all those. Is common wire really THAT close (.9999999..) to 1.0? I always assumed that wire losses were more than that. Or does that require superconductors? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 29 14:12:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <49F89B28.7050205@radiorobots.com> References: <49F89B28.7050205@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <20090429121020.W13340@shell.lmi.net> > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? Many years ago, a fellow that I knew was making a clean-room out of one (relatively trivial to create positive pressure with filtered incoming air). His intended use was not for computers. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Apr 29 13:35:31 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:35:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F89DC8.10803@vaxen.net> Richard wrote: > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? I've seen tractor-trailer rigs set up for everything from seismo-test evaluation to large-scale storage replication, but never "from the inside", so to speak. The US Army has at least one caravan of 8 or 10 rigs that's labeled as war-games simulators. Who knows WTH it really is. ;) Looks to me like you'd be far better off building on a transport frame than a mobile home frame. A semi flatbed or van will be designed to hold up under heavy loads and unevenly distributed weight. Also, it's been my observation that most "mobile" homes are designed and built to move once or twice, and start breaking up after that. For power and cooling, you'll have to give some thought to the expected target environment. If you'll be running it in, say, municipal auditoriums or arenas, assuming high-voltage 3-phase input might be reasonable. If you want to be able to fire it up just anywhere, a light-plant trailer makes better sense. Doc From phil at ultimate.com Wed Apr 29 14:40:01 2009 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200904291940.n3TJe1ar070687@ultimate.com> http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/bulletin/1947-1995/1965/27011965.pdf Shows a 1965 photo of the 40-foot semi-trailer housing a PDP-6 at Brookhaven National Labs. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Apr 29 15:09:25 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:09:25 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <20090429121020.W13340@shell.lmi.net> References: <49F89B28.7050205@radiorobots.com> <20090429121020.W13340@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090429200925.GE19665@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (04/29/2009 at 12:12PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? > > Many years ago, a fellow that I knew was making a clean-room out of one > (relatively trivial to create positive pressure with filtered incoming > air). His intended use was not for computers. I guess I have to put in a plug for our new overlords here at SGI, Rackable Systems build server rooms into 20' and 40' shipping containers... eg, http://www.rackable.com/products/icecube.aspx?nid=datacenter_0 and then I guess they put wheels on them... -- Chris Elmquist From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 29 15:23:15 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > Going off-topic for a minute, I'm very interested in frugal living > (although I don't always live it) and I've been trying to think of > unique ways to get a house without a mortgage. One way was to use > shipping containers. The trade deficit has made them very cheap. And > they're indestructible. You can stack them 5 or 6 high, even when > loaded. Some are also temperature controlled so they're insulated. > Most have hardwood floors also. I'll bite, what are these going for? Zane From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 15:36:52 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:36:52 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'll bite, what are these going for? $3000 or $4000 iirc. The problem is that it's cheaper to dump the empty containers here rather than pay to ship them back to china empty. They were just buying new ones in china. There's huge stacks of these in california. Although, the economy may put an end to all that. Do a google search. There's companies selling them and all sorts of projects turning them into houses. brian From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 16:05:03 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:05:03 +0200 Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands In-Reply-To: <20090429182935.GB15514@dijkstra.uvt.nl> References: <1240932517.3974.16.camel@acer> <3906FD1F-3FAA-4F32-BE71-FA8718B97122@gmail.com> <20090429182935.GB15514@dijkstra.uvt.nl> Message-ID: <81E4AB58-B265-4646-B8F1-F70F3F28CEC6@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2009, at 20:29, Joost van Baal wrote: > The machine will be rescued by the Centre for Computing History > (www.computinghistory.org.uk) near Cambridge, UK. (It might even > get hooked up > on the internet, within a couple of months.) Thanks locutus for > help in > mediating. See http://abramowitz.uvt.nl/sgi.txt for latest status. Joost asked me to communicate this to all of you, so here it is. .tsooJ From vern4wright at yahoo.com Wed Apr 29 16:09:08 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <49F89D44.60307@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/29/09, Ray Arachelian wrote: > From: Ray Arachelian > Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 11:32 AM > Brian Lanning wrote: > > I also considered mobile homes. I thought that it > would be > > interesting to buy some land somewhere where the > government officials > > will leave me alone, then acquire four single-wide > mobile homes. I'd > > arrange them in a square and build a covered deck in > the middle. > > > > (slaps forehead!) So that's how this: > http://www.strangefunkidz.com/images/content/135744.jpg > got started. :-) Great - but not wheelchair accessible :< Vern Wright From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 29 16:14:30 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'll bite, what are these going for? > > $3000 or $4000 iirc. The problem is that it's cheaper to dump the > empty containers here rather than pay to ship them back to china > empty. They were just buying new ones in china. There's huge stacks > of these in california. Although, the economy may put an end to all > that. Do a google search. There's companies selling them and all > sorts of projects turning them into houses. Looks like I have two problems, one is that they're probably going to cost more than I could afford, and secondly it doesn't sound like I'll be able to get one delivered where I was thinking of. Those who are soon to be our neighbors don't know how lucky they are. :-) Zane From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 16:17:50 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:17:50 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:12:03 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Stephane Tsacas writes: > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 19:45, Richard wrote: > > > Has anyone ever setup an appropriately controlled environment for a > > machine room in a mobile home type trailer? > > Does that count ? > Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 16:24:10 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:24:10 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:09:25 -0500. <20090429200925.GE19665@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: In article <20090429200925.GE19665 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist writes: > http://www.rackable.com/products/icecube.aspx?nid=datacenter_0 If I could afford that, I wouldn't need to ask about building one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 16:33:43 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:33:43 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:35:31 -0500. <49F89DC8.10803@vaxen.net> Message-ID: In article <49F89DC8.10803 at vaxen.net>, Doc writes: > Looks to me like you'd be far better off building on a transport > frame than a mobile home frame. A semi flatbed or van will be designed > to hold up under heavy loads and unevenly distributed weight. Also, > it's been my observation that most "mobile" homes are designed and built > to move once or twice, and start breaking up after that. Reasonable idea. I've seen surplus environment controlled trailers for sale on govliquidation. Here's the larger context. We're moving our gear from a smaller (2,000sqft), cramped, rented warehouse to a larger (10,000sqft), roomier rented warehouse. We will move again because my main benefactor wants to own, not rent. First, I wanted to get a reasonably cost effective way to subdivide the larger space into an environmentally controlled area. It *might* be possible to just back a trailer into this warehouse, I haven't measured the doors. Second, I was thinking that if everything was inside a trailer, then when we move to the next location I could just relocate the trailer once and not have to deal with teardown/buildup at the new location unless its a permanent one. Other ideas on how to subdivide a large open space into a machine room at a reasonable cost are welcome. The target machine load currently includes: - SGI Challenge XL - SGI Onyx XL - 4 rack SGI Reality Monster - 2 deskside Origin 2000s - 2 SGI 4D/310 VGX - 2 deskside Onyx - 1 deskside Crimson - PDP-11/03 w/dual RL01s in BA23 cabinet - 2 E&S ESVs (same side as deskside Onyx) The SGI and E&S gear eat a fair amount of current, requiring 15A supplies minimum. I'm also interested in hearing about the cheapest way to get the electrics wired, preferably from someone who's done it (Sridhar? Will Donzelli?). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 16:35:37 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:35:37 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F8C829.8040804@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > My main concern would be the amount of weight the floors could support. I think many of us would be worried about that in a classic computer context, too :-) Those trailers aren't particularly sturdy. Gut the thing, pull the floors out, strengthen the chassis, build an interior 2x4" frame, lay down stronger floors, line the walls / ceiling and make the joints tight... whilst also worrying about AC, heating, and presumably some form of fire suppression crap... Unless it *has* to be a trailer, I think I'd be looking at a panel truck or bus as a donor rather than a trailer - stronger from the outset and with its own motive power source (plus it'd be easier to add electricity generation, power the AC etc.) > Going off-topic for a minute, I'm very interested in frugal living > (although I don't always live it) and I've been trying to think of > unique ways to get a house without a mortgage. Live on a boat or bus. The former's pretty common in the UK, and the latter in NZ... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 16:39:46 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:39:46 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F8C922.3020704@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > I'm also interested in hearing about the cheapest way to get the > electrics wired, preferably from someone who's done it (Sridhar? > Will Donzelli?). I assume you don't want to handle it yourself? There's an electrical code where we are, but it seems pretty easy to get the permits and have the inspections done afterwards, and our electric co. appear to be very helpful in an advisory capacity... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 29 16:49:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:49:21 -0700 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <49F868F1.31.5E199DC5@cclist.sydex.com> The military has been putting computers in trailers (or mobile boxes) for a very long time. I seem to recall a co-worker who spent time with a computer-in-a-trailer at Tan Son Nhut during the Vietnam conflict. --Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 29 16:49:35 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:49:35 +0100 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1241041775.6317.6.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 14:09 -0700, Vernon Wright wrote: > > (slaps forehead!) So that's how this: > > http://www.strangefunkidz.com/images/content/135744.jpg > > got started. :-) > > Great - but not wheelchair accessible :< Chain hoist. Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 16:42:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:42:05 -0500 Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands In-Reply-To: <81E4AB58-B265-4646-B8F1-F70F3F28CEC6@gmail.com> References: <1240932517.3974.16.camel@acer> <3906FD1F-3FAA-4F32-BE71-FA8718B97122@gmail.com> <20090429182935.GB15514@dijkstra.uvt.nl> <81E4AB58-B265-4646-B8F1-F70F3F28CEC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F8C9AD.20009@gmail.com> Joost van de Griek wrote: > On Apr 29, 2009, at 20:29, Joost van Baal wrote: > >> The machine will be rescued by the Centre for Computing History >> (www.computinghistory.org.uk) near Cambridge, UK. (It might even get >> hooked up >> on the internet, within a couple of months.) Thanks locutus for help in >> mediating. See http://abramowitz.uvt.nl/sgi.txt for latest status. Knowing that museum, I'm wondering where they're going to put it ;-) (I also believe it'll be well looked after, which is good news) cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 29 16:51:27 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Richard wrote: > Other ideas on how to subdivide a large open space into a machine room > at a reasonable cost are welcome. The target machine load currently > includes: Have you thought about building a large storage shed in there? I'm about to run into the same issue, as we're buying a house, and I want to turn part of the garage into a machine room. In all likelyhood I'll resort to framing out part of the garage. I also want a darkroom, and will either frame out part of the garage, or put in a storage shed and build the darkroom in that. > I'm also interested in hearing about the cheapest way to get the > electrics wired, preferably from someone who's done it (Sridhar? > Will Donzelli?). This is another problem I'm looking at as the house is a bit underpowered. I figure the PDP-11/44 can be run off the dryer circuit (it has been stored at my parents since I bought it in the 90's, and that's how I've run it in the past). I'm not sure there is a cheap way of doing it short of doing it yourself, and I'm pretty sure that would cause problems. The larger issue though is in getting everything hooked up to the electrical grid. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 17:07:33 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:07:33 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:35:37 -0500. <49F8C829.8040804@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <49F8C829.8040804 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Unless it *has* to be a trailer, I think I'd be looking at a panel truck or > bus as a donor rather than a trailer - stronger from the outset and with its > own motive power source (plus it'd be easier to add electricity generation, > power the AC etc.) That's an interesting tack on it. However, I think a trailer might fit into the existing warehouse door, but a truck would not. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 17:09:12 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:09:12 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:39:46 -0500. <49F8C922.3020704@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <49F8C922.3020704 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > I'm also interested in hearing about the cheapest way to get the > > electrics wired, preferably from someone who's done it (Sridhar? > > Will Donzelli?). > > I assume you don't want to handle it yourself? There's an electrical code > where we are, but it seems pretty easy to get the permits and have the > inspections done afterwards, and our electric co. appear to be very helpful i n > an advisory capacity... I've got an EE degree, so I'm not a complete klutz when it comes to electricity, but I'm not a practicing electrician. Putting the issue of permits and inspections aside for a moment (I know DIY is possible in my area), I'm more interested in hearing about how to plan out the necessary junctions, cabling, outlets, breakers, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 17:12:41 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:12:41 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:51:27 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Richard wrote: > > > Other ideas on how to subdivide a large open space into a machine room > > at a reasonable cost are welcome. The target machine load currently > > includes: > > Have you thought about building a large storage shed in there? Yeah, I have considered that too. I suppose it will come down to "whatever's cheapest". I was hoping that with a trailer on the cheap, I might be able to save on some basic construction costs. > > I'm also interested in hearing about the cheapest way to get the > > electrics wired, preferably from someone who's done it (Sridhar? > > Will Donzelli?). > > This is another problem I'm looking at as the house is a bit underpowered. It appears that there is 3-phase supply to the building. Its just not built out from there. I also forgot to mention another beast for electrics: - CDC CC545 console. Needs weird power. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 29 17:14:51 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:14:51 -0400 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1952A6FA-6978-4EA9-9A69-CBB34DBF4E19@neurotica.com> On Apr 29, 2009, at 4:36 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I'll bite, what are these going for? > > $3000 or $4000 iirc. The problem is that it's cheaper to dump the > empty containers here rather than pay to ship them back to china > empty. They were just buying new ones in china. There's huge stacks > of these in california. Although, the economy may put an end to all > that. Do a google search. There's companies selling them and all > sorts of projects turning them into houses. Shipping containers are nowhere near this expensive unless you buy them brand new. 20ft and 40ft containers, for example, go all day long on eBay, all over the country, for $1000-$1500, sometimes even as low as $750. (not climate-controlled units of course) If you find a company that is overstocked, you can get them for even less than that if you show up with cash and can make a container disappear. I've been hoping for some time to get one here to replace a hellishly-expensive storage locker. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 29 18:05:04 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <1241041775.6317.6.camel@elric> References: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1241041775.6317.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090429160302.T24661@shell.lmi.net> > > Great - but not wheelchair accessible :< > Chain hoist. a differential chain hoist works great IFF your racks and wheelchair have or can be adapted to have something overhead to hook onto. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47591 would be a nice supplement, and with trivial expansion of the platform will work for wheelchairs. From jason at havnet.net Wed Apr 29 18:05:11 2009 From: jason at havnet.net (HavNet) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:05:11 +0100 Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands Message-ID: <643f3c5318c07e9dad5ac74bf49ab14e@webmail.apm-internet.net> Ahh but Jules, We know something you dont know !! ... ner ner ... Watch this space for some good news regarding the museum (apart from addition of an SGI Origin 2000 obviously) We had a great time and the Gadget Show Live a few weeks ago See : http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/news/4058/Gadget-Show-Live-2009-Awesome/ which has helped gain us some much needed support ... Anyway, does anyone know where I can get signed drivers for Windows Vista that support the Origin 2000? :-) Jason Curator & Chief Geek The Centre for Computing History -----Original Message----- From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:42:05 -0500 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands Joost van de Griek wrote: > On Apr 29, 2009, at 20:29, Joost van Baal wrote: > >> The machine will be rescued by the Centre for Computing History >> (www.computinghistory.org.uk) near Cambridge, UK. (It might even get >> hooked up >> on the internet, within a couple of months.) Thanks locutus for help in >> mediating. See http://abramowitz.uvt.nl/sgi.txt for latest status. Knowing that museum, I'm wondering where they're going to put it ;-) (I also believe it'll be well looked after, which is good news) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 29 18:09:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090429160559.J24661@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not sure there is a cheap way of doing it short of doing it yourself, > and I'm pretty sure that would cause problems. The larger issue though is > in getting everything hooked up to the electrical grid. Build it in a shipping container, and wire that yourself for everything that you want. Then LABEL your container "PORTABLE" and have a 6 foot heavy cord hanging out of it to plug into a 220V high amperage outlet. Get permits and/or electrician to install that outlet. The industry has clearly shown with casters, etc. that "portable" does NOT have to mean that you can lift it. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 29 18:18:21 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:18:21 -0700 Subject: Shipping Containers (was Re: machine room in a trailer?) In-Reply-To: <1952A6FA-6978-4EA9-9A69-CBB34DBF4E19@neurotica.com> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> <1952A6FA-6978-4EA9-9A69-CBB34DBF4E19@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49F8E03D.9050000@bitsavers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > Shipping containers are nowhere near this expensive unless you buy > them brand new. Unmodified shipping containers are not at all suitable for storage of electronics or paper. Much of the CHAC and Perham Foundation collections were destroyed by storing them in shipping containers and sitting them on the ground in San Jose. The problem is they are sealed. Once moisture enters throught he wooden floor, the heat from the sun turns the inside into a steam bath. At a minimum you have to add ventilation and modify the floors to prevent moisture from getting in. On ocean trips, The contents of those containers are sealed with desiccant, since water can get inside. We had a couple of wet packing crates inside of an ocean container in the process of getting the Dortmund collection to CHM. From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 29 18:57:17 2009 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:57:17 -0700 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:33:43 -0600, Richard wrote: > Reasonable idea. I've seen surplus environment controlled trailers > for sale on govliquidation. This is a great way of going if you are willing to re-rack your equipment. The electronics trailers are specially designed to channel cooling to the racks - some having zone controls. Generally, there is also sufficient power distribution to handle the equipment you described. A number of years ago I outfitted a thirty-foot surplus equipment trailer with a Modcomp II, data recorders, printer, and data acquisition equipment for an atmospheric optical transfer function experiment. The trailer I came up with had a row of racks that covered one side leaving the other for a console and printer and room for everyone involved to escape the elements. We operated out of Tucson, Arizona with sites at Cape Canaveral in the summer, Lake Tahoe in the winter, and Bolder, Colorado in the summer. About 10,000 miles of travel in all with no equipment failures! There were two zones of cooling: one for the equipment in the bays and the other for the personnel space. There was over 100 Amps available in the racks with 3-phase 220/110V wiring. Another avenue to investigate are surplus equipment shelters. These shelters have environmental systems, racks, and power distribution. You hire a crane/big fork lift and a flatbed to move the beasts and generally will go for less than the trailers. CRC From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Apr 29 19:21:03 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:21:03 +0200 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <200904291940.n3TJe1ar070687@ultimate.com> References: <200904291940.n3TJe1ar070687@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <49F8EEEF.2010905@ifi.uio.no> Phil Budne wrote: > http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/bulletin/1947-1995/1965/27011965.pdf > > Shows a 1965 photo of the 40-foot semi-trailer housing a PDP-6 > at Brookhaven National Labs. > My word. I heard the PDP-6 were plagued by contact issues, particularily with the register bit boards. Driving the poor thing around all the time can't have been very helpful in that regard? -Tore :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 19:23:25 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:23:25 -0400 Subject: Shipping Containers (was Re: machine room in a trailer?) In-Reply-To: <49F8E03D.9050000@bitsavers.org> References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> <1952A6FA-6978-4EA9-9A69-CBB34DBF4E19@neurotica.com> <49F8E03D.9050000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Unmodified shipping containers are not at all suitable for storage of > electronics or paper. Much of the CHAC and Perham Foundation > collections were destroyed by storing > them in shipping containers and sitting them on the ground in San Jose. Ow! > The problem is they are sealed. Once moisture enters throught he wooden > floor, the heat from the sun turns the inside into a steam bath. That makes sense. > At a minimum you have to add ventilation and modify the floors to prevent > moisture from getting in. Indeed. I am considering a container or two at my farm in Columbus. It's wet enough there that I was already planning on setting them off the ground somehow. It's obvious that merely setting them on a concrete pad will only let them steep in rainwater, not stay dry. I found a company (one of many, I'm sure) that happens to list Columbus as one of its stocking points, so delivery (flatbed or rollout) probably won't add too much to the cost. They also install AC cutouts, "man doors", shelving, vents, skylights, etc. I asked for a bid for something with a vent and skylight and a door. I'm sure I could put the skylight and vent in myself, but I'd rather someone else cut the side for a door. I'm zoned "Rural", so I don't have to worry about neighborhood association covenants, etc. We'll see what number they come back with. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 29 20:09:45 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:09:45 -0700 Subject: Shipping Containers (was Re: machine room in a trailer?) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> <1952A6FA-6978-4EA9-9A69-CBB34DBF4E19@neurotica.com> <49F8E03D.9050000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:23:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: Shipping Containers (was Re: machine room in a trailer?) > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Unmodified shipping containers are not at all suitable for storage of >> electronics or paper. Much of the CHAC and Perham Foundation >> collections were destroyed by storing >> them in shipping containers and sitting them on the ground in San Jose. > > Ow! > Hi Don't set them on the ground and I keep some desicent(sp?) inside. That is what I've done. I have two of those small driers. I add stuff to them about once every month in the winter. One could also seal the floor but you still want ventilated air between the wood floor and the soil. I've had it for two winters and not seen any problems yet. I am in California but it is in the mountains where there is a lot of rain. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates2_042009 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 29 21:49:10 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:49:10 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:57:17 -0700. Message-ID: In article , CRC writes: > Another avenue to investigate are surplus equipment shelters. Where would you find such a thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vern4wright at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 00:45:34 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <20090429160302.T24661@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <297313.25941.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/29/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 4:05 PM > > > Great - but not wheelchair accessible :< > > Chain hoist. > > a differential chain hoist works great IFF your racks and > wheelchair have > or can be adapted to have something overhead to hook onto. > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47591 > would be a nice supplement, and with trivial expansion of > the platform > will work for wheelchairs. Yeah, but I'd want the top trailer (for the view and other reasons), and that's ~35ft AGL. And there isn't anything above for a skyhook. Guess I'm condemned to my ground-floor apt. Vern Wright From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 29 18:58:22 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:58:22 -0400 Subject: Transistors... Message-ID: <0KIV00DLIZURLGU2@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Transistors... > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:50:48 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Allison wrote: >> Common base transistor has current gain of .99999.. and voltage gain >1 as >> well as power gain. Wire is .9999999.. for all those. > >Is common wire really THAT close (.9999999..) to 1.0? >I always assumed that wire losses were more than that. >Or does that require superconductors? Not quite but compared to many other things unless second order effects are important it's practical to use 1. Mostly as what you put in is what out get out for small systems at low curents and moderatly low frequencies. At grid tranmission line currents and distances even that .000001 part is significant. At RF, noticable at VHF and higher then the resistivity of the surface is more important than bulk due to skin effect. Thats a whole nother can of worms. Allison From falco at ihug.co.nz Wed Apr 29 19:32:27 2009 From: falco at ihug.co.nz (falco at ihug.co.nz) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:32:27 +1200 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, I did more experimentation with the Apple IIs. I decided that, having one machine that worked fine, I could use it to test the RAM from the other two. I was surprised to find that of the 48 4116s I tested, nine were faulty enough that the machine wouldn't boot. My testing wasn't very thorough, so some may still be bad; on populating the original Apple II with RAM that seemed OK, it started up OK, but still behaves a bit randomly (hitting Enter makes random characters appear on the screen, it tends to suddenly change video modes, and drop into the monitor at times as well). My real question is - 9 faulty out of 48, spread across both machines, seems very high. Are 4116s that unreliable? Or perhaps they're quite sensitive to power supply problems? Mike. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Apr 30 01:29:54 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:29:54 -0700 Subject: machine room in a trailer? References: <6dbe3c380904291102y6525a77fvf35d24c17a268e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380904291336u2deb92b3n1d07d890507ff61f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005b01c9c95d$1374e820$0201a8c0@hal9000> Here in the dumping ground ( California ) you can get a 40 footer for $900... / Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'll bite, what are these going for? > > $3000 or $4000 iirc. The problem is that it's cheaper to dump the > empty containers here rather than pay to ship them back to china > empty. They were just buying new ones in china. There's huge stacks > of these in california. Although, the economy may put an end to all > that. Do a google search. There's companies selling them and all > sorts of projects turning them into houses. > > brian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Apr 30 02:35:09 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:35:09 +0100 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First sorry for the delayed response. Back when the Apple ][ Europlus were being sold new, and when Microspot was actively selling them, one of my favourite ways of finding RAM problems, was to type HGR2 and watch the screen. It switched to displaying a large chunk of the second 16k bank as pure raster graphics and then sets it all to black (zero). It only displays seven bits of each byte on a mono monitor but any dead chips in those seven shows up as recurring white (or randomly flashing) vertical lines. If there is a fault in the first bank then the machine probably will not start up, but if it does, typing HGR displays the first bank similarly but with four(?) lines of text at the bottom. You can switch the RAM around to test bank 3 and the eighth bit of each byte. By using the Basic commands (moveto and lineto?) you can find out which bit has failed, or by switching RAM chips. On 26 Apr 2009, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:38:28 +1200 > From: Mike van Bokhoven > Subject: More broken Apples... > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <49F447B4.1000708 at fenz.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Well, I dragged those Apple IIs out of storage, and spent this evening > poking at them, with some success. Thought I'd post my results here, > and > hope that someone has some suggestions for me. > > There are three machines in total; one an Apple II Europlus, the other > two generic II+ clones. > > The first thing I did was run them up - all dead, garbage on the > screen. > Same as last time I looked at them. Step 2 - pull all the cards and > try > again. After that, one of the clones ran up fine; turns out that the > 'language card' (16k memory expansion) was killing it. Good stuff - > one > running Apple II, even if it's not an original. > > Unfortunately, the other two weren't quite so cooperative. I decided > to > look at the other clone first, as its behaviour was pretty > interesting. > The screen was entirely full of apostrophes to begin with, but > randomly, > blocks of them would change to lower case 'p's, and back, flickering > very quickly. It responded to a reset by changing the pattern of ps, > though they tended to appear in the same place. I found the ASCII > values > interesting: > > ' = 0x60 = 0110 0000 > p = 0x70 = 0111 0000 > > So, on reset, perhaps it's clearing half the bits per byte, and the > other four have a problem. Reseting the machine tended to lead to > random > behaviour for a bit, such as random display changes, and speaker > clicks. > At one point, the display switched to high-res mode, and I could see > that a large amount of memory had the same sort of pattern through it, > and was flickering the same way text was; I guess the entire memory > space is like that. Perhaps bits 5 and 6 are permanently stuck. > > I checked the CPU's behaviour; on reset, the address and data lines > would run for at least a short time, so I'm guessing the CPU is likely > to be OK. Often they would continue to run, at which time I'd see the > flickering. Other times, activity would stop, and the flickering would > also stop, usually leaving a screen full of 's. > > So, my next step is to track down a schematic for the machine, and see > what I can figure out. I'm guessing I should look first at anything > that > deals with the high four bits of memory. Thoughts, suggestions and > intuitive guesses welcome! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 05:33:06 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/29/09, falco at ihug.co.nz wrote: > My real question is - 9 faulty out of 48, spread across > both machines, > seems very high. Are 4116s that unreliable? Yes. > Or perhaps > they're quite > sensitive to power supply problems? Very yes. 4116's need -5v from the power supply. They also run very hot. They're pretty unreliable, and a common source of problems in machines. Not to say they're terrible - they are good for what they are... but they are nowhere near as reliable as 4164's Note that with a little modification, you can make 4164's work in the place of 4116's. They have almost the same pinout, they don't use -5v, and they run much cooler. -Ian From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 30 07:14:21 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:14:21 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- System handler? Message-ID: <49F9961D.6000503@hachti.de> Hi, I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e. Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud. I need fill characters.... Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and works. But how do I get my system to use it as terminal handler? Or is there another one? Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 08:31:52 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:31:52 -0500 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F9A848.7010908@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <49F8C829.8040804 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Unless it *has* to be a trailer, I think I'd be looking at a panel truck or >> bus as a donor rather than a trailer - stronger from the outset and with its >> own motive power source (plus it'd be easier to add electricity generation, >> power the AC etc.) > > That's an interesting tack on it. However, I think a trailer might > fit into the existing warehouse door, but a truck would not. Yes, until your later post I wasn't sure what you were hoping to achieve. Something 'portable' for taking to events would be kind of fun, though :) Might be worth investigating anyway - deliveries are needed to warehouses, so it's a possibility they designed the door height so that a smaller van would be able to back inside. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 08:38:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:38:16 -0500 Subject: free/pick-up: Origin 2000 sgi 2400, Tilburg, The Netherlands In-Reply-To: <643f3c5318c07e9dad5ac74bf49ab14e@webmail.apm-internet.net> References: <643f3c5318c07e9dad5ac74bf49ab14e@webmail.apm-internet.net> Message-ID: <49F9A9C8.8080208@gmail.com> HavNet wrote: > Ahh but Jules, > We know something you dont know !! ... ner ner ... Oooh - new building on the cards? The 'old' place has some real character to it, but isn't exactly great for flow of people, huh? (Same problem with buildings at BP!) Congrats on the SGI - I shall be banging on your door when I'm next in the Cambridge area... cheers J. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Apr 30 10:38:02 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:38:02 +0100 Subject: MSV11-J Message-ID: <6165DD7943A14D5C8945D4E5B2D14169@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Hi Is there anybody out there who has or knows where I can get a MSV11-J (M8637-E(E OR F)) ? I may be able to get my pdp11/94 running as an 11/84 if I can get a PMI card. Rod Smallwood From vern4wright at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 12:13:03 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <005b01c9c95d$1374e820$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <27721.47789.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I've seen them advertised free here in the San Diego area. I don't know the condition, but if I had room.... Vern Wright --- On Wed, 4/29/09, Scanning wrote: > From: Scanning > Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 11:29 PM > Here in the dumping ground ( California ) you can get a 40 > footer for > $900... > > / Steven > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Lanning" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Zane H. Healy > > wrote: > > > I'll bite, what are these going for? > > > > $3000 or $4000 iirc. The problem is that it's > cheaper to dump the > > empty containers here rather than pay to ship them > back to china > > empty. They were just buying new ones in china. > There's huge stacks > > of these in california. Although, the economy may put > an end to all > > that. Do a google search. There's companies > selling them and all > > sorts of projects turning them into houses. > > > > brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 12:18:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:18:54 -0400 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <49F9A848.7010908@gmail.com> References: <49F9A848.7010908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yes, until your later post I wasn't sure what you were hoping to achieve. > Something 'portable' for taking to events would be kind of fun, though :) That could be fun - rack up an 11/751 (19"-wide version of the 11/750) and a few other toys and take it on the road. I don't know that I'd take something like that to one of the coasts, but VCFmw is plenty close enough. One thought would be to re-purpose a camper-trailer - rip out the bed and the kitchen and install racks. -ethan From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 30 12:27:32 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:27:32 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F9A7440200003700053DF3@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Mike asks: > My real question is - 9 faulty out of 48, spread across both machines, > seems very high. Are 4116s that unreliable? Or perhaps they're quite > sensitive to power supply problems? It isn't unusual to find that many years after manufacture, that a particular batch of DRAM chips aren't reliable anymore. DEC and other memory board makers used to keep internal lists of known good batches and known bad batches of chips, and even kept track of what brand/batch are shipped with each memory board for long-term reliability tracking. But it seems more likely that something marginal in the timing of the motherboards or the power supply or something else is causing your observed flakiness. I don't really understand what you mean about the Apple II's "wouldn't boot", though. They do not do an extensive (or any!) power-on memory test but maybe loading DOS 3.3 is hitting RAM hard enough at power on that it's turning somethng else up. As others have noted, just going into BASIC at power-up doesn't hit memory too hard, and the quickie tests of going into hi-res graphics and looking for flakiness on the screen is useful if not definitive. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 30 12:30:52 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:30:52 -0700 Subject: altair 8800b style switches Message-ID: <49F9E04C.2050907@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250414411275 Looks like he has several lots. I'm pretty sure these are the ones used on the 8800B front panel. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 12:40:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:40:44 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > 4116's need -5v from the power supply. And that -5V has to come on first and go off last. I was recently reading the Circuit Cellar volumes where this subject came up - powering down last is easy - there's little load, so the filter caps discharge last in the PSU. Coming up first takes some intentional design choices in the PSU, but from what Steve Ciarcia describes, it's not a difficult thing to get right. Any existing 1970s microcomputer is already going to have that problem solved. > They also run very hot. They're pretty unreliable, and a common source of problems in machines. I don't remember having a single problem with 4116s in Apple IIs or PETs back in the day, but I will grant that the 4116 is probably going to be less reliable than the TTL in those same machines. > Not to say they're terrible - they are good for what they are... but they are nowhere near as reliable as 4164's Agreed. > Note that with a little modification, you can make 4164's work in the place of 4116's. They have almost the same pinout, they don't use -5v, and they run much cooler. I was thinking about that very subject just this week - I have a TRS-80 Model III that I think has a flaky 4116. I have a chip tester, but it only tests 64Kbit, 256Kbit and 1Mbit DIP DRAMs (i.e. - single-supply parts). Is this hack as simple as eliminating the -5V and +12V to the socket, or is there more to it? I have tubes and tubes of NOS 4164s, and could easily build a 1-2-socket stacker with missing pins to plug a 4164 into a 4116 socket if that's all it takes. I also have a PET 4016 with the punched-out holes in the upper 16K region of the board - I don't mind stringing wires to rebuild the sockets, but that seems like a great candidate for hacking the power to the RAM field. Also, it would be easier to drive a naked dynamic PET board from a bench supply if it didn't need -5V. So for multiple projects, I'm intereste -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Apr 30 12:47:17 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:47:17 -0300 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... References: <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <047f01c9c9bc$67038b90$b73c19bb@desktaba> > I was thinking about that very subject just this week - I have a > TRS-80 Model III that I think has a flaky 4116. I have a chip tester, > but it only tests 64Kbit, 256Kbit and 1Mbit DIP DRAMs (i.e. - > single-supply parts). Is this hack as simple as eliminating the -5V > and +12V to the socket, or is there more to it? I have tubes and > tubes of NOS 4164s, and could easily build a 1-2-socket stacker with > missing pins to plug a 4164 into a 4116 socket if that's all it takes. > I also have a PET 4016 with the punched-out holes in the upper 16K > region of the board - I don't mind stringing wires to rebuild the > sockets, but that seems like a great candidate for hacking the power > to the RAM field. Also, it would be easier to drive a naked dynamic > PET board from a bench supply if it didn't need -5V. I'd use a pair of 4464's in a smal perfoboard. BTW I have two apple ][+ I'm planning in doing just this mod. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Apr 30 12:54:04 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:54:04 -0300 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... References: <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04a001c9c9bc$afe16a30$b73c19bb@desktaba> Here is what I did when I had to put 512K in an old MSX: http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/msx/512k_wavy/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 30 12:56:20 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery Core Message-ID: Can anyone identify these boards? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01381.JPG http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01382.JPG http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01463.JPG They're stamped IBM, with etched numbers LBJ5360, LBJ5403 and LKJ12470. The owner says they were given to him in 1978, and were supposedly from North Bay, Ontario. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 13:25:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:25:48 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <047f01c9c9bc$67038b90$b73c19bb@desktaba> References: <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <047f01c9c9bc$67038b90$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I also have a PET 4016 with the punched-out holes in the upper 16K >> region of the board - I don't mind stringing wires to rebuild the >> sockets, but that seems like a great candidate for hacking the power >> to the RAM field. ?Also, it would be easier to drive a naked dynamic >> PET board from a bench supply if it didn't need -5V. > > ? I'd use a pair of 4464's in a smal perfoboard. BTW I have two apple ][+ > I'm planning in doing just this mod. If I'm going to go to that much work, I might as well get another one of these... http://freenet-homepage.de/x1541/hardware/petram.html (I already have two, and they are *great*!) I just thought that a socket-based chip replacement would be trivial to build - a few seconds each, really (heat the pin, pop it out, stack two sockets... repeat). If there's a one-wire jumper from somewhere, that's still not too onerous to install. Simpler than the work to wire up a perfboard, plus I have *lots* of 4164s and only a few 4464s in my junkbox. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 13:57:51 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <628435.67154.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Is this hack as simple as > eliminating the -5V > and +12V to the socket, or is there more to it? I have > tubes and > tubes of NOS 4164s, and could easily build a 1-2-socket > stacker with > missing pins to plug a 4164 into a 4116 socket if > that's all it takes. Yup. That's _nearly_ all there is to it. You need to change the +12v into +5v, and disconnect the -5v entirely. You can modify a single chip by bending pin 8 up and folding it over and soldering it to pin 9 (may need a bit of wire), and clipping off pin 1 completely. For reference, here's the pinouts: ---..--- ---..--- -5v -|1 16|- Gnd n/c -|1 16|- Gnd Din -|2 15|- /CAS Din -|2 15|- /CAS R/W -|3 14|- Dout /WE -|3 14|- Dout /RAS -|4 13|- A6 /RAS -|4 13|- A6 A0 -|5 12|- A3 A0 -|5 12|- A3 A2 -|6 11|- A4 A2 -|6 11|- A4 A1 -|7 10|- A5 A1 -|7 10|- A5 +12v -|8 9|- +5v Vcc -|8 9|- A7 -------- -------- 4116 4164 You can also modify the board. If you tie pin 1 of the sockets either high or low, you can also use 41256's. -Ian From rickb at bensene.com Thu Apr 30 14:11:36 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:11:36 -0700 Subject: Mystery Core In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike L. wrote: > > Can anyone identify these boards? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01381.JPG > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01382.JPG > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01463.JPG > > They're stamped IBM, with etched numbers LBJ5360, LBJ5403 and > LKJ12470. > The owner says they were given to him in 1978, and were supposedly from > North Bay, Ontario. I can't identify the application, but these probably aren't read/write magnetic core memory. Based on the way they are wired, they look more like ROS (Read Only Storage, IBM's TLA for ROM). Each board looks to be a 10 word by 10-bit ROM. Can't say this definitively, but it's a semi-educated guess. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 14:15:25 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:15:25 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <628435.67154.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <628435.67154.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Is this hack as simple as >> eliminating the -5V and +12V to the socket...? > > Yup. That's _nearly_ all there is to it. You need to change the +12v into +5v... Ah... that makes perfect sense. > and disconnect the -5v entirely. Sure. > You can modify a single chip by bending pin 8 up and folding it over and soldering it to pin 9 (may need a bit of wire), and clipping off pin 1 completely. Hmm... I have so many 4164s that I'm not horrified to mod the chip, and I might have to do that if there isn't enough vertical clearance (not an issue in a PET, but might be an issue in the TRS-80 Model III). As for a socket mod, how does this sound? ... Take a 16-pin machined-pin socket. Poke out pin 1 (-5V). Poke out pin 8 (+12V). Take another 16-pin machined-pin socket. Remove pin 1 on it as well. Break off the pin tail from pin 8 so that it won't dangle into the socket below. Install a jumper wire from the modified pin 8 to pin 9 (+5V). Install that socket on top of the previously modified socket (the one with pins 1 and 8 missing). Insert a 4164 into the top socket. Install the stack into a 4116 socket on the target board. Repeat 7 times for a bank of 8. I think I can find the used 4164s I removed from my DEC Professional 350 when I upgraded it to two banks of 41256s. I think that would be a suitable source of parts to upgrade a PET - a donation from another classic machine. > You can also modify the board. If you tie pin 1 of the sockets either high or low, you can also use 41256's. Good to know, but I have so many 4164s that I'm unlikely to use 41256s. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 14:29:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:29:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 30, 9 01:40:44 pm Message-ID: > I was thinking about that very subject just this week - I have a > TRS-80 Model III that I think has a flaky 4116. I have a chip tester, > but it only tests 64Kbit, 256Kbit and 1Mbit DIP DRAMs (i.e. - > single-supply parts). Is this hack as simple as eliminating the -5V > and +12V to the socket, or is there more to it? I have tubes and > tubes of NOS 4164s, and could easily build a 1-2-socket stacker with > missing pins to plug a 4164 into a 4116 socket if that's all it takes. The differences are : Pin 4116 4164 1 -5V N/C 8 +12V +5V 9 +5V A7 IIRC (but do check this). (Note that pin 16 is ground -- the main power and ground pins are still the diagonally-opposite ones you'd expect, but they're the other way round to the normal configuration!) So what you need to do is isolate pin 1, disconnect pin 8 from the PCB and connect it to pin 9 (or another source of 5V). This will use 1/4 of the chip (A7 will be tied high, rememebr it's a multiplexed address, so effectively 2 pits of the full address are forced to '1's). One problem could be the refresh. Obviously with A7 tied high, the chip only sees a 7 bit refresh (on pins A0-A6). Some 4164s only needed a 7 bit refresh anyway (so no problem), of the others, many will refresh the cells in use if A7 is tied high (it may not refresh some of the cells that are never used, in the remaining 3/4 of the chip, but that shouldn't matter). FWIW, I've done this a couple of times using randomly selected 4164s, and had no problems I normally do it by a little kludge. Namely bend out pins 1 and 8, and solder a jumper wire on top of the package between the bent-out pin 8 and and pin 9. Stick it in the 4116 socket, making sure that pins 1 and 8 do not make contact with the socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 14:32:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:32:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 30, 9 03:15:25 pm Message-ID: > > Hmm... I have so many 4164s that I'm not horrified to mod the chip, > and I might have to do that if there isn't enough vertical clearance > (not an issue in a PET, but might be an issue in the TRS-80 Model > III). I suspect the vetical clearancve needed to add the bit of wire is less than adding another socket in the stack. -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 14:36:09 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <419391.69767.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... I have so many 4164s that I'm not horrified to > mod the chip, > and I might have to do that if there isn't enough > vertical clearance > (not an issue in a PET, but might be an issue in the TRS-80 > Model > III). Yeah, and 4164's are pretty easy to come by. I don't worry about modifying the individual chips - but then again, I'm typically only using modified chips to replace individual failed 4116's. > As for a socket mod, how does this sound? ... > > Take a 16-pin machined-pin socket. Poke out pin 1 (-5V). > Poke out > pin 8 (+12V). Take another 16-pin machined-pin socket. > Remove pin 1 > on it as well. Break off the pin tail from pin 8 so that > it won't > dangle into the socket below. Install a jumper wire from > the modified > pin 8 to pin 9 (+5V). Install that socket on top of the > previously > modified socket (the one with pins 1 and 8 missing). > Insert a 4164 > into the top socket. Install the stack into a 4116 socket > on the > target board. Repeat 7 times for a bank of 8. Sounds like it would work perfectly. The only issue I would have with it is that the two machine pin sockets you would need cost more than the 4164's do, and you have to purchase those sockets new - whereas you can scavenge 4164's from junked XT clone boards. :) > Good to know, but I have so many 4164s that I'm > unlikely to use 41256s. Yeah, and 41256's are much harder to get - I just brought it up as a just-in-case. I once spent an afternoon using a propane torch to scavenge soldered-in 41256's from scrap HP printer boards in an attempt to upgrade a Sun VME machine. In many instances, it's actually easier to modify the board to take 4164's than it is to modify the chips or build adapters. But, again, that's not very original, and involves hacking the board. I typically only use these one at a time when necessary to replace bad chips (because I don't have any spare 4116's). I know a common modification on Wiliams arcade games like Defender or Robotron (which use piles of 4116's) is to simply replace all the chips with 4164's and modify the board (two trace cuts and one kludge wire) to take them. Or, in the case of the game, since nothing else on the board uses 12v or -5v, you can actually build an adapter for the power connector that disconnects the -5v, and routes the +5v to the +12v line - and then just plug 4164's straight in with no modification. It really depends on your application, and how the board you're installing them in is set up. Do whatever works best for you and the particular machine you are repairing. But you can definitely, replace 4116's with 4164's with minor modifcations and expect it to work just fine. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 14:50:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:50:28 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <419391.69767.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <419391.69767.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> As for a socket mod, how does this sound? ... >> >> Take a 16-pin machined-pin socket.... ?Take another >> 16-pin machined-pin socket.... > > Sounds like it would work perfectly. The only issue I would have > with it is that the two machine pin sockets you would need cost > more than the 4164's do, and you have to purchase those sockets > new - whereas you can scavenge 4164's from junked XT clone boards. :) Perhaps you have to buy those new, I do not. I have hundreds of 16-pin and 20-pin sockets from leftover stock from my COMBOARD days. I haven't had to buy any of those in 15 years. I also have tubes of NOS chips, also from COMBOARD stocks. My thought was that modifying the chips might make it difficult to test them later in my automated chip tester. I could, of course, modify one chip and see if it still tested good. Oh... and I _don't_ have XT clone boards lying around. I didn't get into Intel commodity hardware until 1992. I jumped right into 386s from the Commodore world. > Yeah, and 41256's are much harder to get - I just brought it up as a just-in-case. I once spent an afternoon using a propane torch to scavenge soldered-in 41256's from scrap HP printer boards in an attempt to upgrade a Sun VME machine. I use a heat gun, not a torch, but I am quite familiar with the process. > In many instances, it's actually easier to modify the board to take 4164's than it is to modify the chips or build adapters. But, again, that's not very original, and involves hacking the board. I was contemplating that technique for the PET 4016 board. I have to hack the board anyway to patch around the 6mm holes punched at the factory. > It really depends on your application, and how the board you're installing them in is set up. Do whatever works best for you and the particular machine you are repairing. But you can definitely, replace 4116's with 4164's with minor modifcations and expect it to work just fine. Thanks for describing the specifics. I'm sure this discussion will come in handy since I have a very small amount of 4116s and a lifetime supply of 4164s already lying around. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 30 15:02:17 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:02:17 -0600 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:18:54 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Jules Richardson > wrote: > > Yes, until your later post I wasn't sure what you were hoping to achieve. > > Something 'portable' for taking to events would be kind of fun, though :) > > That could be fun - rack up an 11/751 (19"-wide version of the 11/750) > and a few other toys and take it on the road. I don't know that I'd > take something like that to one of the coasts, but VCFmw is plenty > close enough. SGI had an 18-wheeler trailer that they had configured this way with sufficient cooling, etc., that they used to demonstrate their high end machines. They toured the bus around the country doing demos at various universities and whatnot. I saw these at the UofU in the early/mid 90s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alec at sensi.org Thu Apr 30 15:19:50 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 00:19:50 +0400 Subject: More broken Apples... In-Reply-To: <287901c9c742$c35f6e30$477419bb@desktaba> References: <49F447B4.1000708@fenz.net> <21b901c9c667$3427e250$477419bb@desktaba> <49F45448.1090509@fenz.net> <244901c9c6b1$5b206310$477419bb@desktaba> <49F5880E.1@fenz.net> <287901c9c742$c35f6e30$477419bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0904301319g5825c422w4815d82966d29852@mail.gmail.com> 2009/4/27 Alexandre Souza : > ? Hmmm...lets see, I'll try to remember all DIFFERENT clones (not copycats > of the ][+): There were Apple ][ clones "Behind the Iron Curtain" too. Soviet "Agat": http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?st=1&c=509 http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/easteurope_ussr.html Bulgarian Pravetz 8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravetz_series_8 JFYI: http://www.trust-us.ch/habi2/054_soviet_computer_technology.html -- -=AV=- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 15:32:17 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <67266.66209.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I use a heat gun, not a torch, but I am quite familiar with > the process. I graduated to a heat gun years ago as well. I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner. The torch was a pain in the neck to use - not to mention having to buy more fuel for it. > I was contemplating that technique for the PET 4016 board. > I have to > hack the board anyway to patch around the 6mm holes punched > at the > factory. Yeah - might as well wire it for 4164's then. > Thanks for describing the specifics. I'm sure this > discussion will > come in handy since I have a very small amount of 4116s and > a lifetime > supply of 4164s already lying around. You're welcome! Yes, like you, I try to work with what I've already got. I had the same problem, quite a while ago - I needed 4116's and had none. So I looked up the pinouts and used the 4164's I already had laying around. And I know that many others have done the same. Definitely not the first time I've had to modify some part to replace an unavailable or not-on-hand part. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 30 15:33:52 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:33:52 -0600 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:33:06 -0700. <425681.71836.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <425681.71836.qm at web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > > --- On Wed, 4/29/09, falco at ihug.co.nz wrote: > > > My real question is - 9 faulty out of 48, spread across > > both machines, > > seems very high. Are 4116s that unreliable? > > Yes. > > > Or perhaps > > they're quite > > sensitive to power supply problems? > > Very yes. > > 4116's need -5v from the power supply. They also run very hot. They're pretty unreliable, and a common source of problems in machines. Not to say they're te rrible - they are good for what they are... but they are nowhere near as reliab le as 4164's > > Note that with a little modification, you can make 4164's work in the place o f 4116's. They have almost the same pinout, they don't use -5v, and they run mu ch cooler. Are there data sheets online for the 4116 and 4164? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 30 15:52:15 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:52:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <04a001c9c9bc$afe16a30$b73c19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <178231.49241.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I don't understand a word of that! The pictures are great though, and can clearly see what you have done :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 30/4/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: From: Alexandre Souza Subject: Re: More Apple II fun - 4116s... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Thursday, 30 April, 2009, 6:54 PM Here is what I did when I had to put 512K in an old MSX: http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/msx/512k_wavy/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 30 16:27:20 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: <297313.25941.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <297313.25941.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090430142618.D66174@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Vernon Wright wrote: > Yeah, but I'd want the top trailer (for the view and other reasons), and > that's ~35ft AGL. And there isn't anything above for a skyhook. > Guess I'm condemned to my ground-floor apt. Could you attach a horizontal boom to the top of the trailer? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 30 16:35:09 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: References: <419391.69767.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090430143014.N66174@shell.lmi.net> > Sounds like it would work perfectly. The only issue I would have > with it is that the two machine pin sockets you would need cost > more than the 4164's do, and you have to purchase those sockets > new - whereas you can scavenge 4164's from junked XT clone boards. :) Why can't you re-use used sockets? With a heat gun or torch and a stack of old Apples, you could get hundreds of really crappy sockets. But, surely if you look around, you can find some boards with good machine pin sockets. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 30 16:42:25 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:42:25 -0400 Subject: Mystery Core In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200904302142.n3ULgULf098037@keith.ezwind.net> Looks like very early JROM jumperable read only memory. It is clearly 10x10 array with 10 selectable coils per core providing full 10 bit programability. IBM 700/7000 series used BDC (binary-coded decimal). Beyond that I am only guessing ... The other Bob On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:56:20 -0400 (EDT), Mike Loewen wrote: > Can anyone identify these boards? >http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01381.JPG >http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01382.JPG >http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01463.JPG > They're stamped IBM, with etched numbers LBJ5360, LBJ5403 and LKJ12470. >The owner says they were given to him in 1978, and were supposedly from >North Bay, Ontario. >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Apr 30 16:43:44 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery Core In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <273919.71782.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Rick Bensene wrote: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01381.JPG > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01382.JPG > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC01463.JPG > Based on the way they are wired, they look more like ROS > (Read Only > Storage, IBM's TLA for ROM). > Each board looks to be a 10 word by 10-bit ROM. My guess is that this is either a switch core matrix (a magnetic decoder used to drive the X-Y select lines of a core memory) or some other magnetic-logic device such as decoder or shift register. --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Apr 30 16:49:09 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery Core In-Reply-To: <200904302142.n3ULgULf098037@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <86305.16664.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Bob Bradlee wrote: > Looks like very early JROM jumperable read only memory. > > It is clearly 10x10 array with 10 selectable coils per core > providing full 10 bit programability. That makes sense. I can't make out the wiring on the back side at all (could we have a better picture?) but that would explain all of those test points. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 30 17:05:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:05:27 -0700 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 30, 9 01:40:44 pm, Message-ID: <49F9BE37.3011.634EDA7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2009 at 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: > I normally do it by a little kludge. Namely bend out pins 1 and 8, and > solder a jumper wire on top of the package between the bent-out pin 8 > and and pin 9. Stick it in the 4116 socket, making sure that pins 1 > and 8 do not make contact with the socket. Converting the original IBM 5150 planar from 64K using 4116s to 256K using 4164 was the subject of a number of kits--and magazine articles. It wasn't difficult. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 30 17:09:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:09:04 -0700 Subject: Mystery Core In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <49F9BF10.26786.63522A92@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2009 at 12:11, Rick Bensene wrote: > I can't identify the application, but these probably aren't read/write > magnetic core memory. Based on the way they are wired, they look more > like ROS (Read Only Storage, IBM's TLA for ROM). Each board looks to > be a 10 word by 10-bit ROM. Can't say this definitively, but it's a > semi-educated guess. These look too large to be ROS. I'm with the other poster who guessed that this might be a driver assembly--the multiple turns on each core would seem to indicate that transformer action that desired, not memory. If it wasn't IBM, I'dve guessed some sort of core logic or parametron application, but AFAIK, IBM didn't use those. --Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Apr 30 18:05:22 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:05:22 -0700 Subject: Anyone willing to read some Amstrad/Amsoft 3" floppies? Message-ID: Hi folks, My aunt just emailed me to let me know she's got a friend with some old floppies that she needs to get files off of. They're Amsoft CF2 3" floppies, unfortunately something I've never had in my collection, so I can't really help. If anyone on the list has easy access to an Amstrad or ZX Spectrum system with a CF2 drive and would be willing to help (possibly for a fee, I have no idea whether/what they'd be willing to pay), please contact me off list, and I'll try to get you connected! Thanks, -Seth From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 30 18:11:51 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 01:11:51 +0200 Subject: pdp11/15 find In-Reply-To: <6266D1ED9626483D8EFB91F0CB724C1C@D4BZH92J> References: <6266D1ED9626483D8EFB91F0CB724C1C@D4BZH92J> Message-ID: <49FA3037.1060101@hachti.de> Bob Adamson schrieb: > As an unexpected freebie while I was picking up another pdp8 I've acquired a > small pdp11/15. I'm really an 8-man so this is a bit of a foreigner but it > seemed a shame to let it be thrown away. Yes, it's a nice machine. Still looking forward to rescue one, too. > I was quite interested to see the construction method with the cards > upside-down in the backplane and a snazzy rotatable rack mount for servicing > - unusual (to me at least). PDP-8/L uses exactly the same structure. The whole machine looks like an 8/L with some more switches and new colors.... Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 30 18:42:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:42:00 -0400 Subject: machine room in a trailer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E27D717-8735-4814-87BF-54899EB35B4E@neurotica.com> On Apr 30, 2009, at 4:02 PM, Richard wrote: > SGI had an 18-wheeler trailer that they had configured this way with > sufficient cooling, etc., that they used to demonstrate their high end > machines. They toured the bus around the country doing demos at > various universities and whatnot. I saw these at the UofU in the > early/mid 90s. Yes, the SGI "Magic Bus". We had it spend a day with us at Digex in Beltsville, Maryland, around 1996 or so. It was nothing short of orgasmic. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 30 18:18:40 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:18:40 -0400 Subject: MSV11-J In-Reply-To: <6165DD7943A14D5C8945D4E5B2D14169@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <6165DD7943A14D5C8945D4E5B2D14169@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <49FA31D0.3010904@compsys.to> >Rod Smallwood wrote: >Is there anybody out there who has or knows where I can get a MSV11-J >(M8637-E(E OR F)) ? > >I may be able to get my pdp11/94 running as an 11/84 if I can get a PMI >card. > I assume that you have the M8190-BF. I also assume that your request is for hobby use which means that you will only pay for shipping. If you need the PDP-11/84 for commercial use, a few dealers still have PMI memory available. If you really want to run as a PDP-11/94, it may also be possible to purchase the CPU. Let me know privately if the second or third options apply. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 19:49:53 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:49:53 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <20090430143014.N66174@shell.lmi.net> References: <419391.69767.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20090430143014.N66174@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Sounds like it would work perfectly. The only issue I would have >> with it is that the two machine pin sockets you would need cost >> more than the 4164's do, and you have to purchase those sockets >> new - whereas you can scavenge 4164's from junked XT clone boards. :) > > Why can't you re-use used sockets? > > With a heat gun or torch and a stack of old Apples, > you could get hundreds of really crappy sockets. I have no interest in crappy sockets, used, new, or free. :-P > But, surely if you look around, > you can find some boards with good machine pin sockets. I reuse machined-pin sockets all the time. Last year, I pulled several lbs of sockets from a stack of scrapped boards. I did find that occasionally they were difficult to mount in new boards because of solder build-up and bumps and tight through-holes, but it was nothing that couldn't be gotten around. Now that I have so many used sockets, I'll probably try to use them first in projects and keep the fresh ones for stacked-socket uses where I want solder-free pins. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 19:51:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:51:55 -0400 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: <49F9BE37.3011.634EDA7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49F9BE37.3011.634EDA7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Converting the original IBM 5150 planar from 64K using 4116s to 256K > using 4164 was the subject of a number of kits--and magazine > articles. ?It wasn't difficult. But wasn't that board designed to reroute/disconnect -5V and +12V to the memory array without soldering, or was some minor re-work required for the earliest rev 5150 motherboard? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 30 20:08:30 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: References: <419391.69767.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20090430143014.N66174@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090430180336.Q74826@shell.lmi.net> > > With a heat gun or torch and a stack of old Apples, > > you could get hundreds of really crappy sockets. On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have no interest in crappy sockets, used, new, or free. :-P The ones used on the Apple ][ were not the crappiest ones that I've ever seen, but they were certainly too crappy to use. It was a survival trait - nobody is going to destroy an Apple ][ motherboard for its sockets. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 30 21:15:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:15:46 -0700 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: References: , <49F9BE37.3011.634EDA7D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49F9F8E2.17383.64343CA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2009 at 20:51, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Converting the original IBM 5150 planar from 64K using 4116s to 256K > > using 4164 was the subject of a number of kits--and magazine > > articles. ?It wasn't difficult. > > But wasn't that board designed to reroute/disconnect -5V and +12V to > the memory array without soldering, or was some minor re-work required > for the earliest rev 5150 motherboard? It involved a bit of work with the soldering iron and Xacto knife and some wire. One problem was that the first row of DRAM was soldered in. Purple Computing made a little board that plugged into the DRAM sockets that required less work (but still wire and soldering iron) that allowed you to keep the first row of 4116s soldered in. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 30 23:15:03 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:15:03 -0700 Subject: Looking for M4 Data 9905 manual or diagnostic program code listing Message-ID: <49FA7747.3060408@mail.msu.edu> I'm trying to get an old M4 9905 tape drive running with my PDP-11/73's Pertec interface and I'm not having a ton of luck. Currently attempting to boot from known-good media spins the reels a bit and then gives me an "Error 21 - Drive Error" from the 11. I want to check that the drive is configured correctly. There are evidently settings that can be tweaked by running internal diagnostic programs from the front panel, but I don't know what the codes are. I haven't had much luck finding a manual on the 'net (Bitsavers has manuals for the 9914, which is similar but not similar enough that the diagnostic programs are the same.) Anyone have a manual or a diagnostic listing for this drive? Thanks, Josh From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 30 16:25:27 2009 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:25:27 +0100 Subject: More Apple II fun - 4116s... In-Reply-To: References: <768349.10130.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1241126727.21355.7.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 12:32 +1200, falco at ihug.co.nz wrote: > My real question is - 9 faulty out of 48, spread across both machines, > seems very high. Are 4116s that unreliable? Or perhaps they're quite > sensitive to power supply problems? Even in the early 80s when 4116es weren't especially cheap, I always replaced all eight in ZX Spectrums, and the tranny in the DC-DC converter. It saved a lot of bounced repairs. If one goes, the abnormal load it presents on the power supply seems to spack the rest in short order. Gordon From bqt at softjar.se Thu Apr 30 17:19:17 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 00:19:17 +0200 Subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- System handler? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49FA23E5.7010009@softjar.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > I just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e. > Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud. > > I need fill characters.... > Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and works. > But how do I get my system to use it as terminal handler? Or is there another one? > > Best wishes, > > Philipp :-) You need to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks directly with the console. So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol