From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 1 01:37:40 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 02:37:40 -0400 Subject: Mitsubishi Diamondscan 20m References: <93596.77993.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c8ab55$da855480$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: Mitsubishi Diamondscan 20m > picked up one of these at a doofis computer flea > market this past weekend. Didn't know anything about > it in particular, but the switch settings specific to > 8, 16, 64 color TTL led me to believe it would be > applicable for vintage usage. I was right, following > my looking up it's specs on the web. Problem is the > thing displays nothing (although tube is emminently > functional - considerable static on the face of the > tube, and it flashes white when powered down), the > only *sign* is the blinking diode next to the up/down > contrast or brightness buttons (there's 4 in all, it > probably doesn't matter, and I can't remember). Anyone > have one, or a manual? It would be a shame if I > couldn't get this puppy operational. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Those old monitors used to go with the old Avid Media Composers in the 1990's (NLE video editing), they only do 800x600 and should do 15khz which is usable on Amigas. Which port were you using and what did you connect to it? TZ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 1 03:37:02 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:37:02 +0200 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:04:23 -0400 "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." wrote: > 1. How is 24M of RAM ? Should I be on the lookout for more ? 24 MB is OK, but a few more bits would be better. > 2. What releases of VMS, Vax Ultrix, etc should I limit myself to > based on 24M and KA660 ? Ultrix doesn't support the MicroVAX 4000 line of machines. If you want *ix you have to go to NetBSD or OpenBSD. NetBSD sould run fine on it. I run NetBSD on my 4k2 a few weeks back to fix a few things. > 3. Was there a DSSI version of TK70 ? I don't know about the TK70, but the first generation of DLT drives (successors to the TK70) was availale with DSSI intrface. > 4. 4000/200 does not have SCSI, correct ? (other than someone added > an SI SC-1000) Yes. No SCSI. It is all DSSI. > 5. any idea if a SCSI CD can be booted via the SI SC-1000 ? (boot > cmds would be ?) I connected a CDROM to a Dilog MSCP SCSI adapter and it showed up as a read only disk. So the usual disk boot commands worked. > 7. There is what looks like a 50 pin scsi terminator (small size like > Sun 411 case) that I've > identified as DSSI terminator., What is the 50 pin centronics > style connector above that ? Depending on the enclosure (BA440?) it may be SCSI. The BA440 has some slots with SCSI on the backplane in addition to DSSI. It was meant to put a SCSI CDROM in there and interface it to the VAX using a KZQSA. > 8. What is a DSV11-S good for ? DECnet? ;-) > 9. Not that I plan to, but how do you make use of the async cards > (they have 50 pin centronics style connectors) You need special break out cables. You can build them yourself if you know how to handle a soldering iron. > 12. Can the DSSI drive 'bus' be converted to SCSI ? No. ? Ohh, you mean just the physical bus wiring on the backplane? Hmmm. Maybe. If all 50 pins are routed straight through it shouldn't matter if you connect them to a SCSI or DSSI adapter. > How are the 4000/200 machines ? (Other VAXen I have is VAXStation > 2000 and VAXStation 3100, neither of which is running (driveless))... The 4k2 was the last QBus CPU. Starting with the 4k3 the CPU had special backplane connectors. > Any drop in cpu/memory upgrades that are worthwhile (in the free to > cheap territory of course :-) ). As I wrote: The later VAXen used an entirely different backplane. Special connectors for CPU and RAM, QBus only in the left potion of the backplane. You would need a new backplane along with new CPU and RAM. Most likely you will get that backplane only within a complete enclosure. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:13:52 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 04:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun 3/80 keyboard issue Message-ID: <732090.21151.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm in the process of bringing a Sun 3/80 back to life. First - incredibly - the NVRAM on the 3/80 was still functional - ie there is life in the battery after - what -15+ years? Hard to believe, but as far as I can tell the settings are all correct. I'm however short on various items and wondered if anyone had any of these:- I'd like to get an original Sun PS2 to Sun type 4/5 keyboard converter these had the part number 370-2068. I've tried Belkin F1D082 and other more recent adapters with the 3/80 but none work. A borrowed Sun adapter did work though. I dont know what the difference is, but I suspect the Sun 3/80 is expecting the type 4 keyboard only. Secondly, I'd like to find a colour framebuffer for this machine, unfortunately they are not easy to find as the 3/80 had its own unique layout for the sockets, etc. Its somewhat hard to find part numbers for 3/80 colour framebuffers, most are the mono 501-1402 board, so I guess anything other than that might be colour. One known board is the 501-1443 cg4 colour card. I'd be happy to pay say up to $150 for one of those, or if you prefer I can exchange for my spare 3/80, your choice. Anyway - any help appreciated. Thanks Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 1 07:14:23 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:14:23 -0400 Subject: tape drives (IBM SSA, IBM England -> Xyratex) In-Reply-To: <200804302104.RAA07761@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200804242103.m3OL3Hec099593@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48109A8B.23955.6C5E82E@cclist.sydex.com> <200804241807.21331.rtellason@verizon.net> <4812C938.5010502@jwsss.com> <073EACA5-ADD8-4491-820F-077A0CF5EBDA@neurotica.com> <200804302104.RAA07761@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <7EADE83D-46F9-4E70-BC92-38ACF503401B@neurotica.com> On Apr 30, 2008, at 4:53 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> Umm, what? Unless you're in the twilight zone, FC is everywhere. >> I've not seen a datacenter *without* tons of FC for many years, > > I work for an ISP. Our machine room is not huge, but not tiny either > (it's pulling some 20 kW), and we've got little enough FC that I've > never noticed any. (We have almost no fiber at all; what little we > have, as far as I can recall, is limited to pipes to/from the outside > world.) > > We don't go in for the "big honkin' server with lots of little pod > machines" design in general, which might be relevant. Also possibly > relevant is that a large fraction - probably well over half - of our > machine room is customer co-lo gear, mostly with only a few machines > per customer. I used to (and sorta still do) work for an ISP as well...a smaller one than yours from the sound of things, but I've worked for several over the years, large and small. It's not very common in that environment because it's just not needed in that environment. I suppose I should've qualified "datacenter" to mean "non-ISP datacenter" in my earlier message. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 1 07:16:22 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:16:22 -0400 Subject: tape drives (IBM SSA, IBM England -> Xyratex) In-Reply-To: <200804301819.40564.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200804242103.m3OL3Hec099593@dewey.classiccmp.org> <073EACA5-ADD8-4491-820F-077A0CF5EBDA@neurotica.com> <200804302104.RAA07761@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200804301819.40564.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > If you're not really careful with FC, or using a very small, > completely > homogenous (including firmware version) setup, it's really easy to > have > big problems that affect everything on the SAN. The administrative > group on campus recently had some problems with their EMC-based SAN, > which resulted in various machines overwriting filesystems/LUNs > belonging to other machines. From what I heard, the root cause was > the > fact that they had different firmware versions on some of their EMC FC > switches. (Or, perhaps, because they're using EMC gear...) ...which is precisely why I avoid EMC gear. They are the Microsoft of the high-end storage world. Complete and utter crap products, tremendously overpriced, but a damn good marketing department. Every EMC installation I've seen has had those types of difficulties. Like Microsoft, I have no idea why people keep buying this garbage. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 1 08:21:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:21:50 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: >> 7. There is what looks like a 50 pin scsi terminator (small size >> like Sun 411 case) that I've identified as DSSI terminator., What >> is the 50 pin centronics style connector above that ? > Depending on the enclosure (BA440?) it may be SCSI. The BA440 has > some slots with SCSI on the backplane in addition to DSSI. It was > meant to put a SCSI CDROM in there and interface it to the VAX using > a KZQSA. I thought the 4000-200 was designed to work in the BA123 or something similar. The BA440 has those processor-memory interconnect slots to the right of the Qbus, right? Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 1 08:41:58 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 08:41:58 -0500 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4819C8A6.4060308@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Consider me jealous over the dn10k :-) From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu May 1 09:11:03 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:11:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cartifile Message-ID: <15531.88.211.153.27.1209651063.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi All, I have an Unibus interface card for something called 'CARTRIFILE 20/40' from Tri-data. I googled it, but very litte info is to be found. Can someone tell me more about it? It is a quad slot board with a connector on one side. Thanks, Ed From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 1 09:55:52 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:55:52 +0200 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 May 2008 09:21:50 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I thought the 4000-200 was designed to work in the BA123 or something > similar. The 4k2 CPU doesn't fit into a BA123 or BA23 because a connector on the front of the CPU card is too high and the slots in the BA123 / BA23 are to narrow. (Well, maybe it will fit if you mount it into the second slot. But this leaves only one Q/CD slot for memory in case of the BA23.) Usual for the 4k2 are the BA213 or BA215 "S-Box" style enclosures. (BA215 is about half a BA213.) The slot with is larger in the S-Boxes and there are special QBus cards with "S-Box handles". But there are a few 4k2 in BA440 boxes. I suppose DEC switched from BA213 to BA440 style boxes at the end of the 4k2 live time. > The BA440 has those processor-memory interconnect slots to > the right of the Qbus, right? Yes. IIRC this special CPU slot also brings one of the two DSSI buses to the backplane. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 1 10:13:14 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 11:13:14 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I thought the 4000-200 was designed to work in the BA123 or something >> similar. > The 4k2 CPU doesn't fit into a BA123 or BA23 because a connector on the > front of the CPU card is too high and the slots in the BA123 / BA23 are > to narrow. (Well, maybe it will fit if you mount it into the second > slot. But this leaves only one Q/CD slot for memory in case of the > BA23.) Usual for the 4k2 are the BA213 or BA215 "S-Box" style > enclosures. (BA215 is about half a BA213.) The slot with is larger in > the S-Boxes and there are special QBus cards with "S-Box handles". > But there are a few 4k2 in BA440 boxes. I suppose DEC switched from > BA213 to BA440 style boxes at the end of the 4k2 live time. BA213. That's the one I misremembered. I thought the 4200 came only in the BA213 and didn't fit in the BA440. And I also thought the 4300 came only in the BA440 and didn't fit in the BA213. Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 1 10:36:52 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:36:52 -0700 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90805010836v1b2232c7ya8780152ba4fe084@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:55 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > But there are a few 4k2 in BA440 boxes. I suppose DEC switched from > BA213 to BA440 style boxes at the end of the 4k2 live time. > > > The BA440 has those processor-memory interconnect slots to > > the right of the Qbus, right? > Yes. IIRC this special CPU slot also brings one of the two DSSI buses > to the backplane. > That's actually a BA430 for the 4000-200 (seach for the EK?436AB?IN?002 manual on the net), while the BA440 is used for 4000-300 and beyond. You can put a KA660 in a BA213, but then you need to cable up the DSSI bus, while the DSSI bus is routed directly to the CPU slot for the KA660 in the BA430. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 1 11:37:10 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 10:37:10 -0600 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:01:25 -0500. <51ea77730804302101j8e14000j1fb2bc442f007809@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730804302101j8e14000j1fb2bc442f007809 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > > Cool! Love the crosshair cursor and inconvenient roller system to > control it. No mouse back then! The mouse was invented, but AFAIK Tektronix didn't start offering products with mice until the mid-to-late 80s? They did offer a joystick accessory for the 4051, which looks like the weirdest joystick I've ever seen. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 1 11:39:29 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 10:39:29 -0600 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 May 2008 08:41:58 -0500. <4819C8A6.4060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4819C8A6.4060308 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > Consider me jealous over the dn10k :-) Even after looking at how much physical restoration work is required on the cabinet? :-) This one will be a "long time coming" as CSN say. Its not just dirty, its rusty. Then I'll have to identify the hardware inside it to get an inventory -- I don't even know if the boards contain the graphics HW that I'm ultimately after, because I think that was an option and not necessarily standard on the DN10k. I really know next to nothing about this machine, but would really like to hear from others what they know, particularly if they have docs that aren't online (I'll pay for round trip postage and do the scanning for bitsavers). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu May 1 12:21:12 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:21:12 -0700 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730804302101j8e14000j1fb2bc442f007809@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220805011021gaebb369md3b14a95bf14995d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <51ea77730804302101j8e14000j1fb2bc442f007809 at mail.gmail.com>, > > > "Jason T" writes: > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Richard wrote: > > > -and-apollo-dn10000-join-the-collection/> > > > > > > > Cool! Love the crosshair cursor and inconvenient roller system to > > control it. No mouse back then! > > The mouse was invented, but AFAIK Tektronix didn't start offering > products with mice until the mid-to-late 80s? They did offer a > joystick accessory for the 4051, which looks like the weirdest > joystick I've ever seen. > I think we have one of those joystick things here at the office. A huge base with a big ball part on top, and a tiny little stick coming out of that? And some sort of funky card connector on the end of the cable? John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 1 12:29:58 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 12:29:58 -0500 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4819FE16.9090109@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <4819C8A6.4060308 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Richard wrote: >>> -and-apollo-dn10000-join-the-collection/> >> Consider me jealous over the dn10k :-) > > Even after looking at how much physical restoration work is required > on the cabinet? :-) You wouldn't believe some of the horrors that I've seen :-) Seriously, it doesn't look too bad - most of the corrosion looks to be at the base of the chassis, and the boards look to be in good condition still (any obvious corrosion to the gold parts of the chips?), which is the important bit. I assume it's all SCSI (hopefully not differential) on something of that era, so it should be reasonably easy to check that the drive(s) are still alive and well via a modern PC. Getting a raw backup onto modern media is probably a good first step... Even if the PSU's toast I expect it'd be possible to hook in a replacement (assuming the original can't be fixed). And case/chassis damage is probably way down on the list of priorities :-) > This one will be a "long time coming" as CSN say. Its not just dirty, > its rusty. Then I'll have to identify the hardware inside it to get > an inventory -- I don't even know if the boards contain the graphics > HW that I'm ultimately after, because I think that was an option and > not necessarily standard on the DN10k. Hmm, I think you might be right about it being an option - but that's just from me piecing together what dn10k knowledge I can over the years. There can't have ever been many sold, and can't be more than a very small handful of survivors now. Shame there's no manuals or media - that would be a really neat find. > I really know next to nothing about this machine, but would really > like to hear from others what they know, particularly if they have > docs that aren't online (I'll pay for round trip postage and do the > scanning for bitsavers). Let me know what you find out... it'd be nice to know that someone out there still has them. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 1 12:43:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 11:43:58 -0600 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 May 2008 10:21:12 -0700. <7d3530220805011021gaebb369md3b14a95bf14995d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <7d3530220805011021gaebb369md3b14a95bf14995d at mail.gmail.com>, "John Floren" writes: > > The mouse was invented, but AFAIK Tektronix didn't start offering > > products with mice until the mid-to-late 80s? They did offer a > > joystick accessory for the 4051, which looks like the weirdest > > joystick I've ever seen. > > > > I think we have one of those joystick things here at the office. A > huge base with a big ball part on top, and a tiny little stick coming > out of that? And some sort of funky card connector on the end of the > cable? Yes, that's it! I saw a picture in the catalog and it looks like a bell-hop bell you'd see on a hotel counter. I'm guessing that inside its two potentiometers to measure x/y movement and joystick has a pressure switch mounted on it for selection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 1 12:47:15 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: manual wanted for Scion Microangelo MA520, palette card Message-ID: <54992.71.139.37.220.1209664035.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> The MA520 was a redesign of the MA512, using 64K DRAMs and 2732 EPROMs. It also fixed the problem that the MA512 consumed a block of 16 I/O ports even though it only actually used two. (That was awful if you wanted to use four or eight of the things for color.) I found a scan of the MA512 manual, but nothing on either the MA520 or the palette card. Does anyone have them? AutoCAD-80 apparently supported the Microangelo cards: http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/chapter2_14.html Does anyone still have a copy of that, or any other interesting software that uses the Microangelo? Thanks, Eric From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu May 1 15:06:16 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:06:16 -0500 Subject: LF: Information on "WordWizard" under NorthStar system Message-ID: <1D4072F654D@dunfield.com> Hi Guys, I've been asked to try and recover documents from some Hard Sectored NorthStar diskettes - I'm told they were created with Advantage hardware. I've succesfully made images of the disks using my NST utility (So I know the disks are readable) ... however neither CP/M nor N* GDOS recognizes the disks - all I get it "garbage" when attempting to list the directory. Examining the data on the disk, they do not appear to contain a recognizable directory block. The all do however contain the string "WordWizard 1.2.0 JUN 16 1983P" at the same offset near the beginning of the disk. I'm guessing that "WordWizard" is a word processing package which maintains it's own disk structure, not using OS files. So - I'm looking for information: - Does anyone know what OS WordWizard ran under? - Does anyone have a copy of WordWizard for N* systems? - Any info about the disk structure used by this program? Thanks, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 1 14:33:58 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 15:33:58 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90805010836v1b2232c7ya8780152ba4fe084@mail.gmail.com> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1e1fc3e90805010836v1b2232c7ya8780152ba4fe084@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <481A1B26.1010409@gmail.com> Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:55 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> But there are a few 4k2 in BA440 boxes. I suppose DEC switched from >> BA213 to BA440 style boxes at the end of the 4k2 live time. >> >>> The BA440 has those processor-memory interconnect slots to >>> the right of the Qbus, right? >> Yes. IIRC this special CPU slot also brings one of the two DSSI buses >> to the backplane. >> > > That's actually a BA430 for the 4000-200 (seach for the > EK?436AB?IN?002 manual on the net), while the BA440 is used for > 4000-300 and beyond. I have a pair of BA430s. They contain DECsystem 5500s. Peace... Sridhar From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Thu May 1 15:56:28 2008 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:56:28 -0400 Subject: NeXT MO Dump Offer In-Reply-To: References: <200804281700.m3SH0XhC059349@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0500 4/28/08, Gavin wrote: >> I have successfully repaired a NeXT MO drive and it is remarkably >> reliable... > > Care to post details? I have two MO drives, both of which are (I > think) non-functional... Well, I spent a fair amount of time on it, and I can't say I have all the answers, but I had enough drives that I could experiment a bit. I found that in general, the interface board on the top of the drives doesn't fail, but the board internally can suffer from dry joints, so reflowing the solder, looking for whiskers etc. will generally get the drives to the point where they will spin up and seek. The other thing I found was the linear optical encoder often got clogged and that you had to reset the read/write head properly for the drive to work. Apart from that, there are a lot of little trim pots that are obviously used to calibrate the drive. I have no service manual, so I don't know exactly how they work and haven't had time for continuous experimentation. I have a fair number of drives, and was able to repair 2 successfully. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 1 17:00:07 2008 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:00:07 +0100 Subject: Free to a good home (UK) - bits! In-Reply-To: <4818E285.9050304@machineroom.info> References: <48164107.6010603@machineroom.info> <000c01c8aa43$795eb600$6c1c2200$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4818E285.9050304@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <001801c8abd6$b9017290$2b0457b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of James > Sent: 30 April 2008 22:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Free to a good home (UK) - bits! > > > > > I would be interested in any 50-pin SCSI disks, especially any that are 1.09 > > GB or less (can't remember the exact figure for sure but thereabouts) and > > any larger 50-pin SCSI disk that are no more than one inch in height. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > > Hi Rob, I just checked and the smallest I have is around 2GB. However, I > do have a few slim 50 pin disks. I'll list the numbers so you can check > suitability: > > 4 * Seagate ST32171N (2GB) > 1 * Seagate ST32272N (2GB) > 4 * IBM DCAS-34330 (4GB) > > Let me know if you'd like any of these and you can either collect > (Southampton) or I'll ship them if you cover the costs. > > Cheers, > James They look fine. Contact me at rob underscore j37 at hotmail dot com. We can discuss payment etc off-list. Regards Rob From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 1 17:37:52 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 18:37:52 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (UK) - bits! In-Reply-To: <001801c8abd6$b9017290$2b0457b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <48164107.6010603@machineroom.info> <4818E285.9050304@machineroom.info> <001801c8abd6$b9017290$2b0457b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200805011837.52809.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 01 May 2008 18:00, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of James > > Sent: 30 April 2008 22:20 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > Subject: Re: Free to a good home (UK) - bits! > > > > > I would be interested in any 50-pin SCSI disks, especially any that are > > > 1.09 GB or less (can't remember the exact figure for sure but > > > thereabouts) and any larger 50-pin SCSI disk that are no more than one > > > inch in height. > > > Regards > > > Rob > > > > Hi Rob, I just checked and the smallest I have is around 2GB. However, I > > do have a few slim 50 pin disks. I'll list the numbers so you can check > > suitability: > > > > 4 * Seagate ST32171N (2GB) > > 1 * Seagate ST32272N (2GB) > > 4 * IBM DCAS-34330 (4GB) > > > > Let me know if you'd like any of these and you can either collect > > (Southampton) or I'll ship them if you cover the costs. > > > > Cheers, > > James > > They look fine. Contact me at rob underscore j37 at hotmail dot com. We can > discuss payment etc off-list. If there's interest, I have some number of "smaller" drives on hand as well, and will be making a list near-term. Any of you guys want some, feel free to email me off-list and we'll figure something out... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 1 18:51:25 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 19:51:25 -0400 Subject: A little clarification... In-Reply-To: <200805011837.52809.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48164107.6010603@machineroom.info> <001801c8abd6$b9017290$2b0457b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <200805011837.52809.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200805011951.25610.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 01 May 2008 18:37, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 01 May 2008 18:00, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > On Behalf Of James > > > > > Sent: 30 April 2008 22:20 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > > Subject: Re: Free to a good home (UK) - bits! > > > > > > > I would be interested in any 50-pin SCSI disks, especially any that > > > > are 1.09 GB or less (can't remember the exact figure for sure but > > > > thereabouts) and any larger 50-pin SCSI disk that are no more than > > > > one inch in height. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > > Hi Rob, I just checked and the smallest I have is around 2GB. However, > > > I do have a few slim 50 pin disks. I'll list the numbers so you can > > > check suitability: > > > > > > 4 * Seagate ST32171N (2GB) > > > 1 * Seagate ST32272N (2GB) > > > 4 * IBM DCAS-34330 (4GB) > > > > > > Let me know if you'd like any of these and you can either collect > > > (Southampton) or I'll ship them if you cover the costs. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > James > > > > They look fine. Contact me at rob underscore j37 at hotmail dot com. We > > can discuss payment etc off-list. > > If there's interest, I have some number of "smaller" drives on hand as > well, and will be making a list near-term. Any of you guys want some, > feel free to email me off-list and we'll figure something out... I've already gotten one response to this, so I figure that I oughta clarify things just a bit -- I'm not in the UK, and I hadn't exactly been thinking "free" either, though I don't expect much OTOH... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 1 21:10:47 2008 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:10:47 -0500 Subject: Help Needed in Dallas area Message-ID: <00c301c8abf9$be2f5ac0$14406b43@66067007> I will be going up to Dallas sometime after the Memorial Day holidays to pick up a complete Cray YMP (1988 on topic) system and need help loading it all on the truck I will be renting. Is there anyone in the area that could help out with this? Please email me off list and let me know what's a good date(s) for you. I hope to do it over a weekend so that no one would have take off from work. Thanks for looking, John From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 1 21:34:42 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:34:42 -0500 Subject: Osborne Vixen drawings Message-ID: <51ea77730805011934h3a906293w8e9122130b6b3e65@mail.gmail.com> In sorting a small corner of my voluminous Stack of Stuff tonight, I uncovered something I thought I had lost - a stack of apparently original schematic drawings of the Osborne Vixen. I'm not sure how many pages there ought to be, but I have thirteen. I'm wondering: a) are these already scanned and out there somewhere? b) is there any interest in having them scanned and available? c) if (!a and b) and I can't get to an 11x17 scanner that won't destroy them, can anyone handle the scanning for me? (I would like the originals back, though.) Additional interesting trivia - when I found them they were in an official Atari "Petty Cash Reimbursement Envelope." -- jht From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 1 23:27:57 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 22:27:57 -0600 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 May 2008 12:29:58 -0500. <4819FE16.9090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4819FE16.9090109 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Shame there's no manuals or media - that would be a really neat find. Actually, I know someone who has the Domain/OS release tapes for it... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu May 1 10:12:52 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroPdp-11 H7864 power supply question. Message-ID: <223957.9124.qm@web36805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well, I can answer my own post this time! The J11 connector merely fits onto one of the fans. Thankfully I figured that out before I connected it all up and powered it on! -cheers from julz @P ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu May 1 10:20:19 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroPdp-11 RQDX1 boot problem Message-ID: <859530.62700.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, I refitted the power supply and put the pdp-11 back together. However when I try to boot the pdp-11 from the hard drive it throws up an error 20 on the console, which says there's a controller error. I can't see what the problem is, though something's not quite right. The RQDX1's diagnostics pass on startup - it shows a sequence of leds, and after several seconds they all go off. The pdp-11 startup tests seem to be OK. My ribbon cables between the pdp-11 appear to be connected correctly. The RD52 drive light pops on briefly on boot (as I would expect if it initially spins up), but oddly I don't see a light popping on on the RX-50 drive (though I seem to remember it did). Any thoughts? -cheers from julz @P ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Thu May 1 12:16:09 2008 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:16:09 -0400 Subject: free: Tektronix Microlab I with complete docs Message-ID: <20080501171609.GA3281@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> People, I recently bought a Tektronix Microlab I on eBay. It was sold as is, and in fact does not work. If anybody wants to take a stab at fixing it, you can have it. It is some kind of combination trainer/emulator. It has RS-232 and audio in/out to be used by the monitor program for loading programs into RAM. It looks like a microprocessor trainer: hex keypad, LED display, buttons for stepping through and starting and stopping the program. It can support a variety of different processors via personality cards. The card that is in there is for the TI TMS9900. Good luck finding other personality cards. They definitely were produced. When it is powered up, it shows different things on the LED and never responds to user input. I have made no effort at further diagnosis. Who knows, it might just be a power supply problem (linear, I think). It comes with complete documentation on microfiche including schematics. If somebody is interested in fixing it, it's free. -kurt From lgburbage at woh.rr.com Thu May 1 16:24:41 2008 From: lgburbage at woh.rr.com (Linda/Gary Burbage) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:24:41 -0400 Subject: hey, have old computer stuff for sale, have to make some room here Message-ID: <000501c8abd1$c598f730$13a1d218@gatewaysystem> I have a friend who is interested in an original Wico Command joystick for the Atari 800. Do you have one or access to one? Gary Burbage From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 18:38:56 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mitsubishi Diamondscan 20m In-Reply-To: <001f01c8ab55$da855480$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <522009.58126.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > > picked up one of these at a doofis computer flea > > market this past weekend. Didn't know anything > about > > it in particular, but the switch settings specific > to > > 8, 16, 64 color TTL led me to believe it would be > > applicable for vintage usage. I was right, > following > > my looking up it's specs on the web. Problem is > the > > thing displays nothing (although tube is > emminently > > functional - considerable static on the face of > the > > tube, and it flashes white when powered down), the > > only *sign* is the blinking diode next to the > up/down > > contrast or brightness buttons (there's 4 in all, > it > > probably doesn't matter, and I can't remember). > Anyone > > have one, or a manual? It would be a shame if I > > couldn't get this puppy operational. > Those old monitors used to go with the old Avid > Media Composers in the > 1990's (NLE video editing), they only do 800x600 and > should do 15khz which > is usable on Amigas. Which port were you using and > what did you connect to > it? Yeah my laptop was probably pumping out 1024 x 768 come to think of it, but that never stopped any other monitor I've played with from displaying *something*. But most of those have been fixed frequency. I tried both vga connectors. I didn't have a BNC cable handy to try out that. I didn't alter the dip switches at all. I'll need to know what purposes 6,7, and 8 serve, because it's not described. I guess I should try an Amiga group to find a manual maybe... Just for clarity, I doubt the monitor does only 800 x 600. According to the specs I found on the net, it will sync down to 15khz, and maxs out @ 800 x 600 (36khz or so I guess). Weird that they didn't supply a 9 pin connector. But not really I guess since not too many people were using them by 1992 (except for Fred C. of course LOL). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From Biddr6 at aol.com Thu May 1 20:28:30 2008 From: Biddr6 at aol.com (Biddr6 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:28:30 EDT Subject: tektronix 4205 Message-ID: LOOKING FOR TEKTRONIX TERMINALS EMAIL WITH YOUR INVENTORY THANKS MJ 801-487-9006 **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) From curtis at hawkmountain.net Thu May 1 21:42:01 2008 From: curtis at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 22:42:01 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90804292045l1ca4a2b5s4a9c135d65037024@mail.gmail.com> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <1e1fc3e90804292045l1ca4a2b5s4a9c135d65037024@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <481A7F79.40200@hawkmountain.net> Glen Slick wrote: > Curt, > > I also have a 4000-200. There are faster desktop 3100 and 4000 > models, but I think it's kinda cool having the big Q-bus box to tinker > with. ... M7622-AT boards aren't > too expensive on eBay at times, but then you have to pay for shipping > too and that adds up. > ... Yes, but would M7622-AE from Microvax III work in a VAX 4000/200 (my same size module is M7622-AT) ????? > You don't have an ethernet board? Look for a M3127-PA DESQA-SA or a > M7516-PA DELQA-S. They can be cheap at times on eBay. > I have a separate ethernet board (DEC) that came with it but wasn't in it. Does the KA660 have on board ethernet, or no ? (I didn't even think to look) > Don't know anything about a SI-SC 1000. Power up the 4000-200 to the > >>>> prompt and do a "SHOW QBUS" and "SHOW DEV". That should help to >>>> > figure out what address(es) the SI-SC 1000 is at and whether it is > MSCP or TMSCP, or both. If it is MSCP it might support booting from a > SCSI CD-ROM. You could also look for a M5967 KZQSA which will support > booting from a SCSI CD-ROM. > > For the CXA16 and CXY08 you need breakout cable sets. I forget what > the part numbers for those cables are. > > An RF72 is 1GB, RF73 is 2GB, RF74 is ~4GB. They might all work fine > on a 4000-200 with VMS7.3. > Anyone have any DSSI drives 1G or larger for me to expand my storage with (cheap to free is best :-) ) ? > A TF70 is a DSSI TK70. > > Does the 4000/200 support TF70 (if so, why did they ship it with a TK70 and TQK70 controller (presuming it was shipped with them... I don't actually know that it was)) ? Anyone have a TF70 (or other DSSI tape drive) (same cheap to free requirement :-) ) ? I'd like to max the memory... anyone have memory boards for a 4000/200 ? Thanks, -- Curt > Have fun. I'm sure you'll get lots of other helpful responses. > > -Glen > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: > >> I am the 'proud' owner of a VAX 4000/200. >> >> I have not tried to do much with it yet, first I'll indicate it's config, >> then my questions >> (as I'm 'new' to VAX (I admin'd one for a bit 14 years ago... but I deferred >> to several >> folk on campus as I was new to admin'ing VMS and I didn't stay in the role >> long enough >> to really pick much up)). >> >> M9715-AA VAX 4000 internal card (terminates DSSI and SCSI busses) >> M7626-AA KA660 CPU >> M7622-AT 16M Memory >> M7622-BF 8M Memory >> M3108-PA DSV11-S 2 Line Sync Comm >> SI-SC 1000 System Industries SCSI card >> M3118-YA CXA16-M 16 Async Line >> M3118-YA CXA16-M 16 Async Line >> M3119-YA CXA08-M 8 Async Line >> M3118-YA CXA16-M 16 Async Line >> M7559-00 TQK70 Tape controller >> >> are the cards present (from slot 0? (rightmost slot)) >> >> And it has 3 DSSI drives, 2 5.25" RF31 (381M) and 1 3.5" RF36 (in one of the >> 'rail' sets >> that will support 2 3.5" drives) (1.6G). >> >> the 2 RF31s are ID 0 and 1 >> the RF36 is ID 2 >> >> It also has a TK70. >> >> Now onto the questions: >> >> 1. How is 24M of RAM ? Should I be on the lookout for more ? >> 2. What releases of VMS, Vax Ultrix, etc should I limit myself to based on >> 24M and KA660 ? >> 3. Was there a DSSI version of TK70 ? >> 4. 4000/200 does not have SCSI, correct ? (other than someone added an SI >> SC-1000) >> 5. any idea if a SCSI CD can be booted via the SI SC-1000 ? (boot cmds >> would be ?) >> 6. This is supposed to have some version of VMS on it... I have no PW... >> pointers to 'break in' >> procedure and password reset ? What is the default sysadmin account as >> well ? >> 7. There is what looks like a 50 pin scsi terminator (small size like Sun >> 411 case) that I've >> identified as DSSI terminator., What is the 50 pin centronics style >> connector above that ? >> 8. What is a DSV11-S good for ? >> 9. Not that I plan to, but how do you make use of the async cards (they have >> 50 pin centronics >> style connectors) >> 10. Anyone got any more of the 2 3.5" drive mounting assemblies ? >> 11. Anyone got any RF36 or higher density DSSI drives available ? >> 12. Can the DSSI drive 'bus' be converted to SCSI ? >> 13. What is the largest drive/partitions supported on 4000/200 (DSSI or >> otherwise) ? >> 14. Have I asked enough questions ? (What have I forgotten to ask :-) ? ) >> >> How are the 4000/200 machines ? (Other VAXen I have is VAXStation 2000 and >> VAXStation 3100, neither of which is running (driveless))... I find the >> enclosure >> design pretty cool... and for a large box, has nice design (visually)... (I >> know it is no >> SGI... and that it is DEC beige.... but I like the design (doors, badge, >> etc)). >> >> Any drop in cpu/memory upgrades that are worthwhile (in the free to cheap >> territory >> of course :-) ). >> >> Thanks in advance for any cool info/pointers/etc... >> >> -- Curt >> >> >> >> > > From derschjo at msu.edu Fri May 2 01:14:49 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:14:49 -0700 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481AB159.4050902@msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hey all -- >> >> Picked up an HP Integral PC. Probably paid too much for it but >> something about a luggable HP machine with a plasma display running >> HP-UX from ROM seemed irresistible. But I digress. >> > > It's certainly aa beautiful machine. Is it a plasma display, though? I don't know... you might be right that it's an electroluminescent display, it's definitely a different color than the other plasma-based machines I have (IBM P75, Compaq Portable 386). Didn't cross my mind that there were other display types :). > I > thought I read it was an electroluminescent panel (basically exicitng a > solid phosphor maaterial in an alternating electric field). I must admit > that the display is the one part of the machine that I know ittle about, > I did dismantle the display module in one of my 2 Integrals, there's a > PCB on whcih most of the ICs are custom and unidentifiable, so I didn't > go much further. The display, of course, was not made by HP. > > >> Has anyone archived the manuals for this thing? I've been unable to >> > > The beast place to look for manuals for old HP machines other than > handhelds is http://www.hpmuseum.net/. I think at least the (l)user > manual is there. But be warned that 'my' scheamtic there is an early > version, and I know I made an error in the address decoder circuit > (basically I miscounted the address pins on the CPU at one point). The > HPCC CD-ROM contains an updated version. > > I ahve never seen an HP techical manual for this machine, but would like > to. Low level programming info would certainly be interesting. > > >> find anything in my searches on the internet. Found some software >> archives (and after lubricating the floppy mechanism I've been able to >> > > Actually, most of the time the dive is suffereing from hardened grease. > It doesn't need lubricating, it needs taking apart and cleaning. I wrote > an artice about this (in general, not Integral-specific) in the HPCC > journal last year, I susepct you can purchase a copy of the appropriate > issue from HPCC. > Yeah, I took it apart, cleaned out the old grease and applied a tiny amount of light oil on various joints. It seems to be working fine so far. That's about as far as I've the machine apart thus far. I need to give the printer a going-over and find some ink for it, haven't looked into that yet. > Anyway you must have been inside the machine. How far did you get? The > order I dismantle the machine in is : > > Remove the ROM cover and take out the HP-UX ROM. > > Remove expanison cards, then 2 screws and the back cover > > Remvoe the rear screening plate (6 screws and a little plastic peg thing) > > Remove the floppy drive (unplug the 2 cables, then 3 screws and slide it > out. Don't lose the eject button and spring. > > Undo the screws and free the logic assembly, Reach under it and unplug > the cable from the display. Unplug the cables from the lower edge of the > PCBs going to the fan and PSU/expansion box. Remove the 4 screws holding > the front screen ot the logic module and unplug the THinkjet cabling. > Then the whole logic unit comes out. > > Separate the logic boards from the chasiss plate. > > Rmwove the PSU/expansion box -- take off the earthing nut on the > expansion backplane, then the 4 screws at the rear sides and slide it out > > Take of the nuts and screws and take the cover off the PSU/expansion box. > I find it easiest to lift the cover up as far as it will go, then unbolt > the HPIB conenctr from the back and take the cover off with the HPIB > cable. > > Remove the Thinkjet controls. First remove the logic assembly mounting > spacer to free the earthing tab. Then one screw and take the control out. > > Take out the printer mechanism. It's just a few screws. > > I normally don't need to remove tbe display. > Cool, I'll keep those instructions around for reference in case I need to take it all the way apart (or start feeling adventurous). My Integral is very clean (even came with the "dummy" shipping floppy in the drive when I got it) so I didn't feel the need to take it all the way apart to clean. > Anyway, the circuitry is a mix of standard and HP custom parts. The only > chip I've not seen used elsewhere is the display controller. Other HP > ASICs includ the HP-HIP interface chip, the Thinkjet controller, its RAM > and ROM, and the HPIL chip that interfaces that to the rest of the machine. > > The keyboard connector is HP-HIL. There are 2 connectors, but they form > part of the same HP-HIL chain, so you're limited to a total of 8 (or is > it 7) devices. There's some circuity on the logic board to complete the > chain if you honly have one connector in use (as is often the case, you > just have the keyboard). It doesn't matter which connector you plug the > keyboard into. > > The Thinkjet printer is conventional-ish. It uses the normal Thinkjet > procrssor, Font ROM and RAM (which communciate with the processor using a > Saturn bus (!)). The Thinkjet processor has a built-in HPIL interface, > hence the 1L3 HPIL chip next to in o the board. YEs, there's a tiny HPIL > loop to link the printer to the rest of the machine. > > The printer mechanism is standard but for the fact hat the cables are a > lot longer than those in a normal Thinkjet. This is a particular problem > wit hthe carriage flexiprint, which is thus not the same as the one in > any other Thinkjet. And as is well-known,Thinkjet ink is corrosive. Never > leave a cartridge in an Integral. I think if I ever need to replve the > flexiprint in my Integrals, I'd use anormal-length one and kludge up some > kind of extension. > > Do you ahve any expansion boards? The most useful ones are a memory > expanison (1M is the largerst HP one I've seen, I posted an article here > a couple of months back about expanding the 512K one to 1M), and an RS232 > board (in fact I bought a second Integral fairly recently mainly to get > that board). I also have an internal 300/1200 baud modem and a ROM/EPROM > drawer for mine, but not enough slots :-) > I have both a 512k expansion and the RS-232 card installed in mine, I'll have to look up your article and see about upgrading the 512k card to 1M... > >> make use of it...) but not much documentation. Docs for the HP BASIC >> for this machine would be nice, too. >> >> I've only played with it for a little while, but it seems like a really >> neat machine. (Though it seems like this thing is just begging for some >> sort of mass-storage other than the internal floppy and RAM. Anyone >> have an HPIB hard disk for sale? :) >> > > The maion prolems with this machine are, IMHO : > > Not enough memory, you really need a 512K or 1M card > No serial port -- the RS232 board is something you want to find. > And therefore not enough slots, if you add memory and RS232, you have no > slots left. There was an expansion box, but I've not found one yet. > No hard disk. Yes, you can add an external HPIB hard disk, but that > rather defeats the point on a portable machine. > Agreed. It also would have been nice if they'd put a bit more in the system ROM. As it is, there's absolutely no software or tools aside from the very basic OS on startup. The machine doesn't even know how to format disks without the Utilities floppy! A simple text editor and other basic desktop apps (clock, calendar, calculator, terminal, etc...), or maybe a just a small unix shell and utilities built-in would have made this machine a lot more useful. As it is, I'm swapping floppies all the time to do anything. Tried compiling a C program -- two disk swaps and about 2 minutes later, and I had "Hello, World!" running :). > -tony > > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 2 02:33:30 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:33:30 +0200 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 May 2008 11:13:14 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I thought the 4200 came only in the BA213 and didn't fit in the > BA440. And I also thought the 4300 came only in the BA440 and didn't > fit in the BA213. As Glen remarked: I was wrong. I refered to the BA430 (all QBus) vs. BA440 (CPU / memory interconnect + QBus). 4k3 and onward need a BA440 due to the special CPU / memory interconnect. There is no way to get a 4k3 in a BA213. I have seen 4k2 in BA430 boxes, but they are rare. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 2 02:52:10 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals? In-Reply-To: <481AB159.4050902@msu.edu> References: <481AB159.4050902@msu.edu> Message-ID: <36340.71.139.37.220.1209714730.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote about the HP Integral: > It also would have been nice if they'd put a bit more in the > system ROM. As it is, there's absolutely no software or tools aside > from the very basic OS on startup. The machine doesn't even know how to > format disks without the Utilities floppy! A simple text editor and > other basic desktop apps (clock, calendar, calculator, terminal, > etc...), or maybe a just a small unix shell and utilities built-in would > have made this machine a lot more useful. Sounds like you want the "software engineering ROM", though I'm not certain since I don't have one. I'd really like to get one and dump the ROM; then it should be easy to make a clone of it. As I understand it, it's just an expansion board full of ROMs. I don't know how many ROMs or of what capacity each, but these days it would all fit in a single flash chip. Eric From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Fri May 2 04:03:49 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:03:49 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals? References: <481AB159.4050902@msu.edu> Message-ID: <001e01c8ac33$72e92250$0501a8c0@xp1800> This article on the HPMuseum website tells it all http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2040 it is an issue of the HP Journal over the integral. But it is electroluminescent ;-) Witch ROM do you have a HPUX V1.0 or the V5.0 ? There is some difference between them. -Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals? > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hey all -- >>> >>> Picked up an HP Integral PC. Probably paid too much for it but >>> something about a luggable HP machine with a plasma display running >>> HP-UX from ROM seemed irresistible. But I digress. >>> >> >> It's certainly aa beautiful machine. Is it a plasma display, though? > I don't know... you might be right that it's an electroluminescent > display, it's definitely a different color than the other plasma-based > machines I have (IBM P75, Compaq Portable 386). Didn't cross my mind that > there were other display types :). > >> I thought I read it was an electroluminescent panel (basically exicitng a >> solid phosphor maaterial in an alternating electric field). I must admit >> that the display is the one part of the machine that I know ittle about, >> I did dismantle the display module in one of my 2 Integrals, there's a >> PCB on whcih most of the ICs are custom and unidentifiable, so I didn't >> go much further. The display, of course, was not made by HP. >> >> >>> Has anyone archived the manuals for this thing? I've been unable to >> >> The beast place to look for manuals for old HP machines other than >> handhelds is http://www.hpmuseum.net/. I think at least the (l)user >> manual is there. But be warned that 'my' scheamtic there is an early >> version, and I know I made an error in the address decoder circuit >> (basically I miscounted the address pins on the CPU at one point). The >> HPCC CD-ROM contains an updated version. >> >> I ahve never seen an HP techical manual for this machine, but would like >> to. Low level programming info would certainly be interesting. >> >> >>> find anything in my searches on the internet. Found some software >>> archives (and after lubricating the floppy mechanism I've been able to >> >> Actually, most of the time the dive is suffereing from hardened grease. >> It doesn't need lubricating, it needs taking apart and cleaning. I wrote >> an artice about this (in general, not Integral-specific) in the HPCC >> journal last year, I susepct you can purchase a copy of the appropriate >> issue from HPCC. >> > Yeah, I took it apart, cleaned out the old grease and applied a tiny > amount of light oil on various joints. It seems to be working fine so > far. That's about as far as I've the machine apart thus far. I need to > give the printer a going-over and find some ink for it, haven't looked > into that yet. >> Anyway you must have been inside the machine. How far did you get? The >> order I dismantle the machine in is : >> Remove the ROM cover and take out the HP-UX ROM. >> >> Remove expanison cards, then 2 screws and the back cover >> >> Remvoe the rear screening plate (6 screws and a little plastic peg thing) >> >> Remove the floppy drive (unplug the 2 cables, then 3 screws and slide it >> out. Don't lose the eject button and spring. >> >> Undo the screws and free the logic assembly, Reach under it and unplug >> the cable from the display. Unplug the cables from the lower edge of the >> PCBs going to the fan and PSU/expansion box. Remove the 4 screws holding >> the front screen ot the logic module and unplug the THinkjet cabling. >> Then the whole logic unit comes out. >> >> Separate the logic boards from the chasiss plate. >> Rmwove the PSU/expansion box -- take off the earthing nut on the >> expansion backplane, then the 4 screws at the rear sides and slide it out >> >> Take of the nuts and screws and take the cover off the PSU/expansion box. >> I find it easiest to lift the cover up as far as it will go, then unbolt >> the HPIB conenctr from the back and take the cover off with the HPIB >> cable. >> Remove the Thinkjet controls. First remove the logic assembly mounting >> spacer to free the earthing tab. Then one screw and take the control out. >> >> Take out the printer mechanism. It's just a few screws. >> I normally don't need to remove tbe display. >> > Cool, I'll keep those instructions around for reference in case I need to > take it all the way apart (or start feeling adventurous). My Integral is > very clean (even came with the "dummy" shipping floppy in the drive when I > got it) so I didn't feel the need to take it all the way apart to clean. >> Anyway, the circuitry is a mix of standard and HP custom parts. The only >> chip I've not seen used elsewhere is the display controller. Other HP >> ASICs includ the HP-HIP interface chip, the Thinkjet controller, its RAM >> and ROM, and the HPIL chip that interfaces that to the rest of the >> machine. >> >> The keyboard connector is HP-HIL. There are 2 connectors, but they form >> part of the same HP-HIL chain, so you're limited to a total of 8 (or is >> it 7) devices. There's some circuity on the logic board to complete the >> chain if you honly have one connector in use (as is often the case, you >> just have the keyboard). It doesn't matter which connector you plug the >> keyboard into. >> >> The Thinkjet printer is conventional-ish. It uses the normal Thinkjet >> procrssor, Font ROM and RAM (which communciate with the processor using a >> Saturn bus (!)). The Thinkjet processor has a built-in HPIL interface, >> hence the 1L3 HPIL chip next to in o the board. YEs, there's a tiny HPIL >> loop to link the printer to the rest of the machine. >> >> The printer mechanism is standard but for the fact hat the cables are a >> lot longer than those in a normal Thinkjet. This is a particular problem >> wit hthe carriage flexiprint, which is thus not the same as the one in >> any other Thinkjet. And as is well-known,Thinkjet ink is corrosive. Never >> leave a cartridge in an Integral. I think if I ever need to replve the >> flexiprint in my Integrals, I'd use anormal-length one and kludge up some >> kind of extension. >> >> Do you ahve any expansion boards? The most useful ones are a memory >> expanison (1M is the largerst HP one I've seen, I posted an article here >> a couple of months back about expanding the 512K one to 1M), and an RS232 >> board (in fact I bought a second Integral fairly recently mainly to get >> that board). I also have an internal 300/1200 baud modem and a ROM/EPROM >> drawer for mine, but not enough slots :-) >> > I have both a 512k expansion and the RS-232 card installed in mine, I'll > have to look up your article and see about upgrading the 512k card to > 1M... >> >>> make use of it...) but not much documentation. Docs for the HP BASIC >>> for this machine would be nice, too. >>> >>> I've only played with it for a little while, but it seems like a really >>> neat machine. (Though it seems like this thing is just begging for some >>> sort of mass-storage other than the internal floppy and RAM. Anyone >>> have an HPIB hard disk for sale? :) >>> >> >> The maion prolems with this machine are, IMHO : >> Not enough memory, you really need a 512K or 1M card >> No serial port -- the RS232 board is something you want to find. >> And therefore not enough slots, if you add memory and RS232, you have no >> slots left. There was an expansion box, but I've not found one yet. >> No hard disk. Yes, you can add an external HPIB hard disk, but that >> rather defeats the point on a portable machine. >> > Agreed. It also would have been nice if they'd put a bit more in the > system ROM. As it is, there's absolutely no software or tools aside from > the very basic OS on startup. The machine doesn't even know how to format > disks without the Utilities floppy! A simple text editor and other basic > desktop apps (clock, calendar, calculator, terminal, etc...), or maybe a > just a small unix shell and utilities built-in would have made this > machine a lot more useful. As it is, I'm swapping floppies all the time > to do anything. Tried compiling a C program -- > two disk swaps and about 2 minutes later, and I had "Hello, World!" > running :). >> -tony >> >> >> > > From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Fri May 2 04:25:53 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:25:53 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals? References: <481AB159.4050902@msu.edu> Message-ID: <004801c8ac36$88648680$0501a8c0@xp1800> Tony wrote : > But be warned that 'my' scheamtic there is an early version, and I know I > made an error in the address decoder circuit (basically I miscounted the > address pins on the CPU at one point). The HPCC CD-ROM contains an updated > version. > There is also a small error in the psu circuit one of the diodes in the -12V circuit is a zener. The last one before the 7912 regulator is a zener diode witch protecs the regulator and the two rectifiers. If you replace it with a normal diode you blow CR22 I found out ;-( It should be replaced with it's original 1N5568 -Rik From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri May 2 07:08:59 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 05:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free items available (UK) Message-ID: <956383.7021.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Major clear out means I have several vintage items available, if any interest let me know via email & I can send more info. All items are free but must be collected. Based in Northwest UK 1) Sun Enterprise E4000 with several (probably 8 or 10) CPU's, and around 6G of RAM. CD/DVD drive. All checks out working and in good clean condition. 4 PSUs. 2) Sun 3/60 with 'shoebox' (HD case) and the hard to find SCSI cable. This is a colour system, probably full RAM. 3/60's use a button cell to backup the system settings so its easy to replace - unlike NVRAM chips which can be tricky. Includes a keyboard and mouse (if I can find it). 3) I have a QBUS PDP 11 in an industrial style rack case. This has no front cover but is believed to be functional. More info if required, probably a 11/53 or similar. 4) Last but not least a PDP 11/24 with CPU and RAM (not known how much) and some cabling. A number of unknown cards probably Winchester controllers. In good order but no way of testing. Contact me of list for more info etc if interested.. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 2 07:30:13 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 05:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The collision of classic computer warez and politics Message-ID: <200805021230.m42CUEEk005814@floodgap.com> For once, a political thread that is actually on topic! -- San Diego GOP chairman gets heat for his past as a Commodore 64 cracker. http://rawstory.com/news/2008/San_Diego_GOP_chairman_cofounded_international_0425.html We should expect more from our leaders. Like some good Apple II cracks also. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When you're in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut. ------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri May 2 07:49:22 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 07:49:22 -0500 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481B0DD2.9060104@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <4819FE16.9090109 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Shame there's no manuals or media - that would be a really neat find. > > Actually, I know someone who has the Domain/OS release tapes for it... For the dn10k? Intesresting... wasn't the dn10k install set totally different to the Domain/OS set for the 'lesser' Apollos? Nice to know there's a survivng copy, anyway. cheers J. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 2 09:37:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 10:37:50 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <481B273E.2090305@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I thought the 4200 came only in the BA213 and didn't fit in the >> BA440. And I also thought the 4300 came only in the BA440 and didn't >> fit in the BA213. > As Glen remarked: I was wrong. I refered to the BA430 (all QBus) vs. > BA440 (CPU / memory interconnect + QBus). 4k3 and onward need a BA440 > due to the special CPU / memory interconnect. There is no way to get > a 4k3 in a BA213. I have seen 4k2 in BA430 boxes, but they are rare. I'm actually looking for a BA431 box. (And BA441 boxes.) I have one now, I need a second. (If I could find them cheaply enough, I would love to find six BA441 boxes.) Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 2 09:54:50 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:54:50 -0500 Subject: The collision of classic computer warez and politics In-Reply-To: <200805021230.m42CUEEk005814@floodgap.com> References: <200805021230.m42CUEEk005814@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730805020754o6ca31306ic245516eff385c13@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 7:30 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > For once, a political thread that is actually on topic! -- San Diego GOP > chairman gets heat for his past as a Commodore 64 cracker. > > http://rawstory.com/news/2008/San_Diego_GOP_chairman_cofounded_international_0425.html Wow! He was Strider! I remember that name from their releases. They had awesome intros :) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri May 2 09:57:41 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:57:41 +0100 Subject: Free items available (UK) In-Reply-To: <956383.7021.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <956383.7021.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080502145741.GA21001@gjcp.net> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 05:08:59AM -0700, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Major clear out means I have several vintage items available, > if any interest let me know via email & I can send more > info. All items are free but must be collected. Based in > Northwest UK See, I'd describe myself as being in the North-West UK, but I'm probably considerably further north than you ;-) Where are you? > 1) Sun Enterprise E4000 with several (probably 8 or 10) CPU's, > and around 6G of RAM. CD/DVD drive. All checks out working > and in good clean condition. 4 PSUs. Interested - will be available on a public IP for people who want to play. > 2) Sun 3/60 with 'shoebox' (HD case) and the hard to find > SCSI cable. This is a colour system, probably full RAM. > 3/60's use a button cell to backup the system settings so > its easy to replace - unlike NVRAM chips which can be tricky. > Includes a keyboard and mouse (if I can find it). > > 3) I have a QBUS PDP 11 in an industrial style rack case. This > has no front cover but is believed to be functional. More info > if required, probably a 11/53 or similar. Interested > 4) Last but not least a PDP 11/24 with CPU and RAM (not known > how much) and some cabling. A number of unknown cards probably > Winchester controllers. In good order but no way of testing. Probably interested, if no-one else has beaten me to it ;-) Gordon From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri May 2 10:09:48 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 16:09:48 +0100 Subject: Free items available (UK) In-Reply-To: <956383.7021.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <956383.7021.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2 May 2008, at 13:08, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Major clear out means I have several vintage items available, > if any interest let me know via email & I can send more > info. All items are free but must be collected. Based in > Northwest UK > > 1) Sun Enterprise E4000 with several (probably 8 or 10) CPU's, > and around 6G of RAM. CD/DVD drive. All checks out working > and in good clean condition. 4 PSUs. > > 2) Sun 3/60 with 'shoebox' (HD case) and the hard to find > SCSI cable. This is a colour system, probably full RAM. > 3/60's use a button cell to backup the system settings so > its easy to replace - unlike NVRAM chips which can be tricky. > Includes a keyboard and mouse (if I can find it). > > 3) I have a QBUS PDP 11 in an industrial style rack case. This > has no front cover but is believed to be functional. More info > if required, probably a 11/53 or similar. > > 4) Last but not least a PDP 11/24 with CPU and RAM (not known > how much) and some cabling. A number of unknown cards probably > Winchester controllers. In good order but no way of testing. > > Contact me of list for more info etc if interested.. > > Ian. Hi Ian. Apologies for postin /to/ the list, but I can't divine your email address form the posting. I'd be interested in the E4000 and the PDP11/24 if nobody else has claimed them. I'm based in Manchester (with van) and can collect any time. -Austin. From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri May 2 10:13:48 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Mini inside a Mac Plus Message-ID: http://www.destruc.tv/minitosh.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 2 11:31:08 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 18:31:08 +0200 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <481B273E.2090305@gmail.com> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <481B273E.2090305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080502183108.61cbfe20.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:37:50 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm actually looking for a BA431 box. (And BA441 boxes.) I have one > now, I need a second. (If I could find them cheaply enough, I would > love to find six BA441 boxes.) ??? Clustermania? Actually I striped a BA400x. This is a BA430 / BA440 style DSSI disk enclosure. I ripped all the metal, disk frames, etc. out of it leaving only the outer shell and plastic skins. Then I mounted some shelfes inside. Makes a nice cabinet and it is now the left "leg" of my desk. (The right "leg" is a Sun 2/260.) -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 2 11:35:52 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 18:35:52 +0200 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <481A7F79.40200@hawkmountain.net> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <1e1fc3e90804292045l1ca4a2b5s4a9c135d65037024@mail.gmail.com> <481A7F79.40200@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20080502183552.9ec64f95.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:42:01 -0400 "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." wrote: > Yes, but would M7622-AE from Microvax III work in a VAX 4000/200 > (my same size module is M7622-AT) ????? Hmmm. I think I once tried to use memory boards from a MVIII+ (KA655) with the KA660 (4k2) and it worked. > Does the KA660 have on board ethernet, or no ? (I didn't even > think to look) The KA660 has on board ethernet. You need the KA660 front plate to break out AUI etc. connectors. > Does the 4000/200 support TF70 It should. It is just DSSI. > (if so, why did they ship it with a TK70 and TQK70 > controller (presuming it was shipped with them... I don't actually > know that it was)) ? Good question. Well. DEC had its own ways to do things... -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 2 11:40:55 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:40:55 -0500 Subject: Some old videos - Amiga and AT&T Message-ID: <51ea77730805020940k217f471cscb63691a922e9cfd@mail.gmail.com> We've rescued some goofy promotional videos for the Amiga and the AT&T Unix PC from deteriorating VHS format: http://chiclassiccomp.dyndns.org/videos.html Has anyone ever seen an AT&T E4540 terminal? Google has *nothing* on it. Maybe it was never even released? -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From g-wright at att.net Fri May 2 11:45:42 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 16:45:42 +0000 Subject: hp 7980 PS board schematic, anyone have one Message-ID: <050220081645.27975.481B4536000C8EC700006D4722230682229B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I have not been able to come up with any source of this. Did HP ever release this information. It is the main Power supply and servo board interface. - jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 2 12:04:12 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:04:12 -0600 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 May 2008 07:49:22 -0500. <481B0DD2.9060104@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <481B0DD2.9060104 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <4819FE16.9090109 at gmail.com>, > > Jules Richardson writes: > > > >> Shame there's no manuals or media - that would be a really neat find. > > > > Actually, I know someone who has the Domain/OS release tapes for it... > > For the dn10k? Intesresting... wasn't the dn10k install set totally different > to the Domain/OS set for the 'lesser' Apollos? Nice to know there's a survivn g > copy, anyway. As I understand it, the DN10K uses a custom RISC processor and not a 680x0. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri May 2 12:33:55 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 12:33:55 -0500 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481B5083.3010304@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <481B0DD2.9060104 at gmail.com>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Richard wrote: >>> In article <4819FE16.9090109 at gmail.com>, >>> Jules Richardson writes: >>> >>>> Shame there's no manuals or media - that would be a really neat find. >>> Actually, I know someone who has the Domain/OS release tapes for it... >> For the dn10k? Intesresting... wasn't the dn10k install set totally different > >> to the Domain/OS set for the 'lesser' Apollos? Nice to know there's a survivn > g >> copy, anyway. > > As I understand it, the DN10K uses a custom RISC processor and not a > 680x0. Indeed - a88k (not to be confused with m88k) wasn't it? (I was reluctant to say that "all other Apollos are m68k"[1], as didn't the very early ones use a custom CPU that emulated the 68k because the Motorola part wasn't yet widely available?) [1] The later 7xx RISC-based series from HP doesn't count, of course... Anyway, I think the Apollo install sets that I've seen do support all the m68k-a-like machines - but contain no support for the dn10k; hence if you've got a line on someone with dn10k media, I hope they're looking after it! :-) cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 2 13:28:25 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:28:25 -0700 Subject: Osborne Vixen drawings Message-ID: <481B5D49.40209@bitsavers.org> > a) are these already scanned and out there somewhere? I have them scanned, will see about getting them on line. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri May 2 13:34:29 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 19:34:29 +0100 Subject: Free items available (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <956383.7021.qm@web56215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2 May 2008, at 16:09, Austin Pass wrote: > Hi Ian. > > Apologies for postin /to/ the list, but I can't divine your email > address form the posting. > > I'd be interested in the E4000 and the PDP11/24 if nobody else has > claimed them. I'm based in Manchester (with van) and can collect > any time. > > -Austin. Talk about adding insult to injury! I'm posting twice to the list because I'm too stoopid to include my /own/ email address. It's austinpass at gmail dot com. And if you need me to do any collection/shipping forward malarkey, Gordon (within reason - bit bigger than a casio sampler this time!) then I'll see what I can do. -Austin. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 2 13:34:45 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:34:45 -0700 Subject: hp 7980 PS board schematic, anyone have one Message-ID: <481B5EC5.8060100@bitsavers.org> > hp 7980 PS board schematic, anyone have one nope. Been looking for 7980/88780 schematics for years now. Schematics were not part of the released service documentation. From bob at jfcl.com Fri May 2 13:40:27 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:40:27 -0700 Subject: Actually had an RL02 crash today.... Message-ID: <004401c8ac83$fdee3840$f9caa8c0$@com> . and, although I use RL02s all the time, this is the first time it's happened to me. The odd thing is, the pack was clean and in good shape - in fact, the same pack had been used within the last week without any problems. I knew right away when I spun up the pack that something wasn't quite right - it made an unusual noise when heads loaded. Not a horrible screeching or even the metallic "tinging" sound associated with a crash; more like a soft "swish" noise that I hadn't heard before. It wasn't very loud at all; if I hadn't been right in front of the drive I wouldn't have heard it over all the fans. I spun it down and checked it out - the platter has a really obvious scuff mark ring around the upper surface where the head touched down, and the upper head in the drive had a lot of oxide on it. Surprisingly the lower head also had some oxide on it too, although there are no obvious crash marks on the lower surface of the platter. Fortunately the damage on the upper surface didn't go all the way down to bare metal, and I figured the heads might actually be OK. I cleaned both of them with some Texwipes and alcohol and all the oxide came off, so I found another pack (one that I wouldn't care too much if it crashed too :-), mounted it and gave it a try. The drive appears to be OK despite its adventures, so I'll count myself as lucky this time. The original crashed pack is a write off as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'll make a clock out of it. I'm really curious though as to what could have gone wrong. The original pack had been used before, and recently too, without any problems and when they're not mounted the packs are stored inside plastic garbage bags to keep dust and dog hair out of 'em. I'm always really fastidious about keeping the drives closed and clean inside, and RL02s usually aren't that fussy anyway. It kind of worries me that despite all the precautions they might decide to up and crash at any time, but I guess that's life with a classic computer. Anybody else have any similar experiences? Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 2 13:46:06 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:46:06 -0700 Subject: Osborne Vixen drawings Message-ID: <481B616E.80501@bitsavers.org> > I have them scanned, will see about getting them on line. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/osborne/Osborne_Vixen_Engr_Drawings_Mar83.pdf From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 2 14:32:12 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 14:32:12 -0500 Subject: Osborne Vixen drawings In-Reply-To: <481B616E.80501@bitsavers.org> References: <481B616E.80501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730805021232n72d85bd0r51cc733445bab002@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have them scanned, will see about getting them on line. > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/osborne/Osborne_Vixen_Engr_Drawings_Mar83.pdf This is definitely more complete than what I have (with the eng. drawings and such) yet I think I have more/different schematics. I'll compare them at home tonight and see if I can get mine scanned if they are. From ball.of.john at gmail.com Fri May 2 14:38:26 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 12:38:26 -0700 Subject: MO disks (was NeXT MO Dump Offer) In-Reply-To: <200805011700.m41H04Qq000991@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805011700.m41H04Qq000991@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <481B6DB2.9000203@gmail.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >I am in Toronto - M2R 3G3 > >As an estimate, for 50 cartridges, the postage and packaging would >probably be about $ 50 to the US (they are actually quite heavy and >it originally cost about $ 1 per cartridge to ship) making a total >of about $ 100. I would like to recover what I originally paid. > >Of course, the shipping and packaging might be a bit more and the >media a bit less if shipping from Canada to the US poses a problem >for customs evaluation. > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine Well I live in Kamloops BC (V2C 5G5) so I'm on the other side of the country if that is any help. Mail me at (and include the two periods) ball.of.johngmailcom and we can work out a deal. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 2 14:41:13 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 15:41:13 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <20080502183108.61cbfe20.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <481B273E.2090305@gmail.com> <20080502183108.61cbfe20.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <481B6E59.9050502@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:37:50 -0400 > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I'm actually looking for a BA431 box. (And BA441 boxes.) I have one >> now, I need a second. (If I could find them cheaply enough, I would >> love to find six BA441 boxes.) > ??? > Clustermania? I suppose on some level, yes. I have two 4700As in skinless BA440s, and four 4505As with no chassis. I'd love to properly rackmount them. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 2 15:15:58 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 22:15:58 +0200 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <481B6E59.9050502@gmail.com> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <481B273E.2090305@gmail.com> <20080502183108.61cbfe20.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <481B6E59.9050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080502221558.d915240e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 02 May 2008 15:41:13 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I have two 4700As in skinless BA440s, and four 4505As with no > chassis. I'd love to properly rackmount them. Remove the plastic skins from a BA213 or BA4*0 and you get a 19" rackable box. I converted a BA213 MicroVAX 3500 to a 3600 that way... -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 2 15:28:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 16:28:50 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <20080502221558.d915240e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4817E1B7.3070904@hawkmountain.net> <20080501103702.0f18aac7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819C3EE.10501@gmail.com> <20080501165552.1bddb58e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4819DE0A.2000709@gmail.com> <20080502093330.f18d125c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <481B273E.2090305@gmail.com> <20080502183108.61cbfe20.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <481B6E59.9050502@gmail.com> <20080502221558.d915240e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <481B7982.9090901@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 02 May 2008 15:41:13 -0400 > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I have two 4700As in skinless BA440s, and four 4505As with no >> chassis. I'd love to properly rackmount them. > Remove the plastic skins from a BA213 or BA4*0 and you get a 19" > rackable box. I converted a BA213 MicroVAX 3500 to a 3600 that way... Hence "I have two 4700As in skinless BA440s" and "I'd love to properly rackmount them". Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 2 16:32:06 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 22:32:06 +0100 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <481B7982.9090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Hence "I have two 4700As in skinless BA440s" and "I'd love to properly > rackmount them". Surely once you've deskinned a BA440, you bolt it to the rack via the holes in the flanges at the front. ISTR that when I did that to my two 4000's in the lab I could get one in the front and one in the back of the rack. Have I misunderstood or do you think there is some special rack-mounting hardware available? Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 01/05/2008 17:30 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 2 16:48:07 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 14:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MO disks (was NeXT MO Dump Offer) In-Reply-To: <481B6DB2.9000203@gmail.com> References: <200805011700.m41H04Qq000991@dewey.classiccmp.org> <481B6DB2.9000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 2008, John Ball wrote: > Well I live in Kamloops BC (V2C 5G5) so I'm on the other side of the country if that is any help. > Mail me at (and include the two periods) ball.of.johngmailcom and we can work out a deal. FWIW, I just picked up some used 5.25" MO media. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri May 2 17:17:46 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:17:46 -0700 Subject: Actually had an RL02 crash today.... In-Reply-To: <004401c8ac83$fdee3840$f9caa8c0$@com> References: <004401c8ac83$fdee3840$f9caa8c0$@com> Message-ID: <200805021517.46395.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 02 May 2008 11:40, Bob Armstrong wrote: > . and, although I use RL02s all the time, this is the first time it's > happened to me. The odd thing is, the pack was clean and in good shape - > in fact, the same pack had been used within the last week without any > problems. I knew right away when I spun up the pack that something wasn't > quite right - it made an unusual noise when heads loaded. Not a horrible > screeching or even the metallic "tinging" sound associated with a crash; > more like a soft "swish" noise that I hadn't heard before. It wasn't very > loud at all; if I hadn't been right in front of the drive I wouldn't have > heard it over all the fans. Yes, I've heard that "sound"... --snip--- > The drive appears to be OK despite its adventures, so I'll count myself as > lucky this time. The original crashed pack is a write off as far as I'm > concerned. Maybe I'll make a clock out of it. Yes, forget the pack... You lucked out on the heads :-) > I'm really curious though as to what could have gone wrong. The original > pack had been used before, and recently too, without any problems and when > they're not mounted the packs are stored inside plastic garbage bags to > keep dust and dog hair out of 'em. I'm always really fastidious about > keeping the drives closed and clean inside, and RL02s usually aren't that > fussy anyway. It kind of worries me that despite all the precautions they > might decide to up and crash at any time, but I guess that's life with a > classic computer. Anybody else have any similar experiences? I use my RL02s regularly - and had this happen to me once. AFAIK, it was "operator error" (ME). I had become somewhat complacent about mounting packs - because my RL02s were always so reliable. I dropped a pack in a drive, spun it up and heard an "unusual" sound. As you said, it wasn't a metallic "crash" sound - in fact, I wasn't even sure anything was wrong - except I found the pack wouldn't boot. I shut down the drive and discovered a "ring" of oxide worn off of the pack. I, too, cleaned the heads and tried again with another good, but expendable pack. It got zapped as well. I replaced the heads and all has been well since. Now I'm super careful about mounting packs. If they sound the least bit "different" when I initially place them in the drive (that initial "thunk" sound) - I remount them. Since that crash, I've mounted RL02's literally hundreds of times since then (several years ago) - and that problem hasn't re-occurred (thank God). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 2 17:56:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 23:56:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <36340.71.139.37.220.1209714730.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 2, 8 00:52:10 am Message-ID: > Sounds like you want the "software engineering ROM", though I'm not > certain since I don't have one. I'd really like to get one and dump > the ROM; then it should be easy to make a clone of it. As I understand > it, it's just an expansion board full of ROMs. I don't know how many I have an (empty) ROM/EPROM module in my collection (HP82971). It's an Integral expanison PC with sockets for 16 ROMs/EPROMs, and DIP switched to set the starting address, ROM type, etc. There is some software on hpmuseum.net to burn EPROMs to use in this module (said software runs on the Integral). I've just never got round to it. The HPUS module in my Integral (I think it's V5.0) is clearly designed to take a daughteroard contianing another 4 ROMs. Was that ever used for anything, I wonder? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 2 17:52:19 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 23:52:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals? In-Reply-To: <481AB159.4050902@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at May 1, 8 11:14:49 pm Message-ID: > Yeah, I took it apart, cleaned out the old grease and applied a tiny > amount of light oil on various joints. It seems to be working fine so > far. That's about as far as I've the machine apart thus far. I need to > give the printer a going-over and find some ink for it, haven't looked > into that yet. The printer is a normal thinkjet. Well, normal-ish Thinkjet. It uses the same 'printhead' (ink catridge), etc. I ahve no idea where you'd get one from now, though (but would like to know :-)) The main difference between the Integral and a normal Thinkjet is the relative positions of the mechanism and control PCB. The control circutiry is on the Logic B PCB, which is on the front side of the main chassis plate, behind the display. The PCB you see when you take the back cover and rear screen plate off is Logic A, that's parallel to Logic B on the other side of the chassis plate. Anyway, the circuitry is standard (it's the HPIL version of the microcontroller, but arranged for a mains PSU (oviously), but the different layout means that the cables between the mechanism and the PCB connectors are longer in the Integral than in a noraml Thinkjet. This is a minor prolem with the motors (the wires are integral to the motor, but if you had to replace either motor with one from a normal Thinkjet, you could cut the wires fromt he old motor at a suitable point, cut the connector off the repalcement motor, and solder/heatshrink the connections. Anyway, motors rarely fail. The problem is the flexile PCB that links the carriage to the PC, and whihc carriws the printhead signals. It's longer than a normal one too, and those _do_ fail, particualrly if th ink cartridge leaks onto it (at the front of the carriage), and it's left in that state. Replaceing it is not too hard if you can get the part, but kludging in a normal-length flexiprint could be 'interesting'. If you want to get the printer mechansim out, you have to remove the logic PCB chassis first. As part of that you unplug all the cables from the Logic B PCB, including all the Thinkjet mechanism ones. You don't need to remove the PSU/backplane box. With the logic assembly out of the way, you remvoe the RH (lookin from the front) spaceer at the top to free the grounding tail on the Pritner control panel (if you don't do that, you _will_ tear said tail), then unto the obvious screw and take the control panel out. THe PCB is the stnadard Thinkjet one, the wires are, again, longer. Then I think it's 3 screws that hold the mechanims in place, with those out it just lifts out. The mechanism is overhauled like a normal Thinkjet one. I don't know if the Thinkjet service mnaula is on the web anywhere, I have it on paper (but as ever, no scanner). If you want to tkae it apart, I can talk you through it. Much of it is biouv (but there are some tiny dowel pins that drom out and get lost if you're not expecting them). You need a good set of Torx driers. Basically, I do it in the following order (I think). At the back, take off the carriage motor, home sensor and paper-out switch and actuator (the latter has a magnet that operaates the reed switch). Take off the cleaning pad holder Take off the cover on the RHS, then the platten motor Take off the paper bail (E-circlips at each end, there are dowel pins here that fall out). Take the rollers off that. If necessary, remove the torsion springs and the bail support arms Take off the platten gear, then the E-circlik at the other end and the 2 bearings. Lfit out the platten and take the parts off the shaft -- when reassembling, you have to line up the sproket teeth, of course. Then take out the paper guide 'basket'. To remove the cariage, first undo the screw holdign the drive cable to it. There's a plastic washer on the screw to hold the cable in place -- make sure that's fitted and thusthe cable is not going to unwind. Then free the flexiprint from where it's lightly glued to the chassis, take out the carriage rails (E-circlips) and lift out the carriage The carriagel comes apart (although HP don't recomend it). The bottom secion can be freed by frobing the locking part and sliding it free. Then there are 2 little plastic clips that hold the flexiprint to the front part of the carriage, with those removed you can fold the flexiprint and feed the end throug the carriage slot. IO have never tired to remove or replaec the carriage drive wire and gearbox. HP claim that's not field-repairable. I suspect special clamps, etc are going to be very useful, one day I will give it a go (I have at least one THinkjet with a wrecked flexiprint that I'll experiment on). It's worth remembering if you do this that if you refit the carriage motor, you can lock the motor, and thuse the mechanism connected to it, but passing a suitable current trhough one of the windings. That would prevent the pulley from turning, for example. [...] > Cool, I'll keep those instructions around for reference in case I need > to take it all the way apart (or start feeling adventurous). My > Integral is very clean (even came with the "dummy" shipping floppy in > the drive when I got it) so I didn't feel the need to take it all the > way apart to clean. I guess I'm justa curious hardware type, I like to see what goes on inside all my classic computers :-) > I have both a 512k expansion and the RS-232 card installed in mine, I'll > have to look up your article and see about upgrading the 512k card to 1M... The RS232 card has an interesting undocumented feature that AFAIK no software supports (but I would like to be proved wrong). It's acutally a _dual_ RS232 port. The 68681 chip used on said PCB is actually a 2-channel device. The second channel is uffered to RS232 levales and wired to the seocndary ('back') channel pins on the DB25 conenctor. I think things like SRTS are wired up too. > Agreed. It also would have been nice if they'd put a bit more in the > system ROM. As it is, there's absolutely no software or tools aside Well, a hard disk would have got round that problem :-). -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 2 18:50:20 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 16:50:20 -0700 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <36340.71.139.37.220.1209714730.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90805021650t6e275f3ep5262e2f6e876ee42@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > The HPUS module in my Integral (I think it's V5.0) is clearly designed to > take a daughteroard contianing another 4 ROMs. Was that ever used for > anything, I wonder? > I have one HP-UX module that just has HP-UX, and another one that has HP-UX and also has BASIC in ROMs on the daughterboard. From bear at typewritten.org Fri May 2 20:58:20 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 18:58:20 -0700 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: <481B5083.3010304@gmail.com> References: <481B5083.3010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50CC0F48-25C3-4EC9-B1DA-AC497858A721@typewritten.org> On May 2, 2008, at 10:33 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > hence if you've got a line on someone with dn10k media, I hope > they're looking after it! :-) I am. ok bear From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 2 21:22:10 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 21:22:10 -0500 Subject: Osborne Vixen drawings In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805021232n72d85bd0r51cc733445bab002@mail.gmail.com> References: <481B616E.80501@bitsavers.org> <51ea77730805021232n72d85bd0r51cc733445bab002@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730805021922m3ea772e1r4b2a165737461b22@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I have them scanned, will see about getting them on line. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/osborne/Osborne_Vixen_Engr_Drawings_Mar83.pdf The schematics I have are not exactly like the ones in that file. They may be a little newer. When I get them scanned I'll make them available on the list or two Al if he wants to post them -- j From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Fri May 2 11:35:22 2008 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:35:22 -0400 Subject: Tektronix Microlab I has been claimed Message-ID: <20080502163522.GB3532@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> The Tektronix Microlab I has been claimed. -kurt From josecvalle at gmail.com Fri May 2 13:04:28 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (jose carlos valle) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:04:28 -0300 Subject: Help Needed in Dallas area In-Reply-To: <00c301c8abf9$be2f5ac0$14406b43@66067007> References: <00c301c8abf9$be2f5ac0$14406b43@66067007> Message-ID: John I left Dallas two weeks ago, , maybe I will be back soon.. If in town I will tell you. and is a pleasure help you. Jose Carlos Valle, right now in Brazil. by the way, How you gotto that Cray? have more there? See Yha 2008/5/1 Keys : > I will be going up to Dallas sometime after the Memorial Day holidays to > pick up a complete Cray YMP (1988 on topic) system and need help loading it > all on the truck I will be renting. Is there anyone in the area that could > help out with this? Please email me off list and let me know what's a good > date(s) for you. I hope to do it over a weekend so that no one would have > take off from work. > > Thanks for looking, > John > -- Jos? Carlos Valle - Consultor - INOVACOMM - O evento do Ano. Boletim B?ssula - o seu boletim up to date... Museu do Computador & Futuro da Tecnologia tel:+5511-4666-7545 - cel 8609-7410 www.inovacomm.com.br www.museudocomputador.com.br " F?... ? estar completamente dependente e na certeza de que Deus tem um plano especial para a minha vida, mesmo quando tudo parece n?o fazer nenhum sentido. Pamela Reeve " From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri May 2 13:14:04 2008 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 7980 PS board schematic, anyone have one In-Reply-To: <050220081645.27975.481B4536000C8EC700006D4722230682229B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <298641.589.qm@web35304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Jerry, The HP 88780 the OEM version of the 7980. A service manual is available at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/07980-90030_88780Svc_Oct91.pdf (courtesy of Al - Thank You!) I didn't look thru it to see if had a power supply board schematic, but thats where I would start. Good luck! Lee COurtney --- g-wright at att.net wrote: > I have not been able to come up with any source of > this. Did HP > ever release this information. It is the main Power > supply and > servo board interface. > > - jerry > > Jerry Wright > JLC inc > g-wright at att.net > From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Fri May 2 19:21:49 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 20:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC Message-ID: What a pain... My original DEC 1702906-01 (3W3 -> 3 BNC) cable broke and I needed a replacement. I found one on eBay so I bought two. Instead, the seller sent me a 13W3 to 3 BNC!!! (Where the hell does that thing come from???) I'm trying to contact the seller to work this out. In the meantime, I figured that I'd try here. Would anyone be interested in trading this cable for the one that I really need? FWIW, what I have in my hands cost about 15$ whereas the going price for the 3W3 to 3 BNC (what I need) is around 50$. Thanks! - Alex Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com From derschjo at msu.edu Fri May 2 21:26:10 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 19:26:10 -0700 Subject: Lookin' for BeBox I/O card or schematics? Message-ID: <481BCD42.3060707@msu.edu> I've had a 66Mhz BeBox motherboard and assorted support hardware sitting in static-proof bags for about two years, all that I'm lacking to get a working BeBox (minus the "Box" portion, since I don't have the chassis) is the I/O board -- without it I have no mouse and I can't get through the installer :). I figure it's a long shot that anyone has a spare I/O board, but does anyone have any schematics for this thing so that I can at least wire up the mouse? Thanks, Josh From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat May 3 05:17:35 2008 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:17:35 +0100 Subject: RL02K-RF pack Message-ID: <002c01c8ad06$e8dd85e0$0600a8c0@p2deskto> HI, I found this pack in a pile that I collected yesterday. It is a blue colour (instead of the usual light grey), and has a label detailing expected read voltages and times for inner and outer tracks on each surface. Is it some sort of diagnostic disk? Regards Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat May 3 06:51:39 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 13:51:39 +0200 Subject: RL02K-RF pack In-Reply-To: <002c01c8ad06$e8dd85e0$0600a8c0@p2deskto> References: <002c01c8ad06$e8dd85e0$0600a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: From: "Jim Beacon" Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:17 PM To: "Classic computer list" Subject: RL02K-RF pack > HI, > > I found this pack in a pile that I collected yesterday. It is a blue > colour > (instead of the usual light grey), and has a label detailing expected read > voltages and times for inner and outer tracks on each surface. > > Is it some sort of diagnostic disk? > > Regards > > Jim. > > Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk Yes, I have one too. This is the text that I wrote on the RL02 page on my site: A special cartridge is the "Reference Disk" cartridge. This cartridge has a clearly visible different color! The disk is used in the alignment procedure of the RL02 drive. Actually, it is not the alignment of the heads, because the RL01/RL02 drives use an embedded servo system. You can align the heads with *any* normal disk cartridge. This "Reference Disk" cartridge is an amplitude test pack to check the read amplifier, normally *not* needed. See www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html (direct access, or browse via the menu at the left side "peripherals -> disk -> RL01/RL02. greetz, Henk. From ray at arachelian.com Sat May 3 09:50:37 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 10:50:37 -0400 Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481C7BBD.6020305@arachelian.com> Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > What a pain... My original DEC 1702906-01 (3W3 -> 3 BNC) cable broke > and I needed a replacement. I found one on eBay so I bought two. > Instead, the seller sent me a 13W3 to 3 BNC!!! (Where the hell does > that thing come from???) 13W3's were used with Sun, SGI monitors. I think NeXT may have used those connectors, or something very similar to those. http://pinouts.ru/cgi-bin/view_filt.cgi?text=3W3&lang=eng says that IBM PowerPC machines also used this. If I remember right, the 13W3 monitors weren't interchangeable, and if you used a converter, you needed to make sure that your monitor would sync up to the computer. Sun for example was notorious for using fixed-sync monitors that wouldn't work with anything but their machines. What's funny is that they usually OEM'ed their monitors from, say Nokia, or Sony, and you could see another non-Sun branded monitor from the other two vendors which would be multisync and would work with almost everything, but the Sun branded ones wouldn't. :-) I'm glad that era is over. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat May 3 10:16:14 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 08:16:14 -0700 Subject: RL02K-RF pack In-Reply-To: References: <002c01c8ad06$e8dd85e0$0600a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <200805030816.14474.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 03 May 2008 04:51, Henk Gooijen wrote: --snip-- > See http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html (direct access, or > browse via the menu at the left side "peripherals -> disk -> RL01/RL02. I wish I had discovered your site when I first got into RL0x drives years ago. The pictures and technical information provide an excellent starting place for anyone trying learn about and understand these "critters". If you haven't yet worked on/with RL0x drives I highly recommend Henk's site (link above). Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 3 10:23:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:23:10 -0400 Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C391822-4B94-4F62-9B1A-BE07B13441ED@neurotica.com> On May 2, 2008, at 8:21 PM, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > What a pain... My original DEC 1702906-01 (3W3 -> 3 BNC) cable > broke and I needed a replacement. I found one on eBay so I bought > two. Instead, the seller sent me a 13W3 to 3 BNC!!! (Where the > hell does that thing come from???) 13W3 -> 3 BNC is common in the world of older Sun workstations, in the Sun3 and early Sun4 lines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat May 3 11:39:47 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 12:39:47 -0400 Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC In-Reply-To: <3C391822-4B94-4F62-9B1A-BE07B13441ED@neurotica.com> References: <3C391822-4B94-4F62-9B1A-BE07B13441ED@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <481C9553.7050801@hawkmountain.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 2, 2008, at 8:21 PM, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: >> What a pain... My original DEC 1702906-01 (3W3 -> 3 BNC) cable broke >> and I needed a replacement. I found one on eBay so I bought two. >> Instead, the seller sent me a 13W3 to 3 BNC!!! (Where the hell does >> that thing come from???) > > 13W3 -> 3 BNC is common in the world of older Sun workstations, in > the Sun3 and early Sun4 lines. I thought all Sun's used 13W3 -> 4 (or 5) BNC. At least all Sun 13W3 -> BNC cables or converters that I own are to 5 bnc (but as I recall one wasn't necessary) with the 5 being R,G,B and 2 sync (combined and H or V sync on the 5th) IIRC. Did any sun systems support sync on green (which would be required for 13W3 -> 3BNC) ? The real 'fun' one is teh 386i and the combined video/keyboard/mouse cable. I think I have 4 386i systems, but I think I only have 2 cables (and one needs repair). -- Curt > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 3 11:51:43 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 10:51:43 -0600 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! Message-ID: I don't know why I never realized this before, but the Tektronix 4010 graphics terminal is implemented enitrely in SSI TTL logic and contains no microprocessor. I guess that makes sense with it being introduced in 1971, but it just suddenly hit me like a brick. PS: anyone need a 4010 service manual online? I have one and just noticed it hasn't been scanned on the net anywhere. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sat May 3 14:30:19 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 21:30:19 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals References: Message-ID: <000a01c8ad54$21087680$0501a8c0@xp1800> The roms on my integral are HP-UX V1.0 and uses both pcb's for HP-UX I suppose they used smaller roms in the first version or HP-UX V1.0 takes more place. I removed once the daugtherboard after that the machine wouldn't boot any more so I placed it back. As I heared the difference between HP-UX V1.0 and V5.0 is the first is based on system 3 Unix and the latter on system V Unix. I'm using a 7958B harddisk for my integral named it 'usr'so it's in the default search path and useble with C and Basic. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:56 AM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals >> Sounds like you want the "software engineering ROM", though I'm not >> certain since I don't have one. I'd really like to get one and dump >> the ROM; then it should be easy to make a clone of it. As I understand >> it, it's just an expansion board full of ROMs. I don't know how many > > I have an (empty) ROM/EPROM module in my collection (HP82971). It's an > Integral expanison PC with sockets for 16 ROMs/EPROMs, and DIP switched > to set the starting address, ROM type, etc. > > There is some software on hpmuseum.net to burn EPROMs to use in this > module (said software runs on the Integral). I've just never got round to > it. > > The HPUS module in my Integral (I think it's V5.0) is clearly designed to > take a daughteroard contianing another 4 ROMs. Was that ever used for > anything, I wonder? > > -tony > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 3 15:50:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 21:50:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90805021650t6e275f3ep5262e2f6e876ee42@mail.gmail.com> from "Glen Slick" at May 2, 8 04:50:20 pm Message-ID: > I have one HP-UX module that just has HP-UX, and another one that has > HP-UX and also has BASIC in ROMs on the daughterboard. Interesting... I'd love to find that daughterboard. I wonder how hard ti would be to put other software in said ROMs. Does a proper low-level programming manaul exist for the Integral? I've never seen it, or seen reference to it, alas. There is claimed to be one for the HP9000/200 series, BTW, but I've never seen that either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 3 15:53:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 21:53:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL02K-RF pack In-Reply-To: <002c01c8ad06$e8dd85e0$0600a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at May 3, 8 11:17:35 am Message-ID: > > HI, > > I found this pack in a pile that I collected yesterday. It is a blue colour > (instead of the usual light grey), and has a label detailing expected read > voltages and times for inner and outer tracks on each surface. > > Is it some sort of diagnostic disk? This sounds like the 'amplitude test pack' that's mentioned in at least one of the manuals. It's ueed, as you suspect, to check the head output amplitdue. Remember an RLxx doesn't need an alignment pack (it's an embedded servo drive, you can align the heads on any pack). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 3 16:00:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:00:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <000a01c8ad54$21087680$0501a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 3, 8 09:30:19 pm Message-ID: > > The roms on my integral are HP-UX V1.0 and uses both pcb's for HP-UX I > suppose they used smaller roms in the first version or HP-UX V1.0 takes more > place. Is it the same PCB? haev V5.0 in my Integrals, and the daugherboard connectors are 2 row things (I think 2 rows of 10 pins each), a plug at one end of the PC, a socket at the other, so that the daughterboard can only fit one way round. But I am sure I've een a picutre of an Itengral ROM module PCB on one of the websites which appears to have SIL connectors for the daughterboard. As regards using smaller ROMs, the ROM select decoding is, IIRC, on the Logic A PCB, with 4 chip select lines being fed to the ROM module. [Each line enales 2 ROMs, the high and low bytes of the 16 bit word]. Anyway, if you used smaller ROMs, unless you changed things on the Logic A PCB, the ROM would not be a contiguous block, whihc would seem to be a Bad Thing. -tony From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sat May 3 17:22:27 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:22:27 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals References: Message-ID: <002101c8ad6c$2e7b39c0$0501a8c0@xp1800> I'll make some pictures one of the next days, and mail them to you. How big is your mailbox ;-) But as I recall, there are two rows of connectors. I'm not sure but ypu 'll see when I made the pictures. I've another Integral on its way (seapost) from downunder, bought it because it has the basic rom and serialcard. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:00 PM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals >> >> The roms on my integral are HP-UX V1.0 and uses both pcb's for HP-UX I >> suppose they used smaller roms in the first version or HP-UX V1.0 takes >> more >> place. > > Is it the same PCB? haev V5.0 in my Integrals, and the daugherboard > connectors are 2 row things (I think 2 rows of 10 pins each), a plug at > one end of the PC, a socket at the other, so that the daughterboard can > only fit one way round. But I am sure I've een a picutre of an Itengral > ROM module PCB on one of the websites which appears to have SIL > connectors for the daughterboard. > > As regards using smaller ROMs, the ROM select decoding is, IIRC, on the > Logic A PCB, with 4 chip select lines being fed to the ROM module. [Each > line enales 2 ROMs, the high and low bytes of the 16 bit word]. Anyway, > if you used smaller ROMs, unless you changed things on the Logic A PCB, > the ROM would not be a contiguous block, whihc would seem to be a Bad > Thing. > > -tony > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 3 17:34:22 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 18:34:22 -0400 Subject: Help Needed in Dallas area In-Reply-To: References: <00c301c8abf9$be2f5ac0$14406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <220CA97C-A0EE-4FAD-8368-D240653A9B93@neurotica.com> On May 2, 2008, at 2:04 PM, jose carlos valle wrote: > by the way, How you gotto that Cray? have more there? I've got one for sale if you're looking...standard U.S. 110V wall outlet powered, deskside chassis, YMP-EL92...one of the rarest, fully operational, with operating system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 17:56:29 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 17:56:29 -0500 Subject: Help Needed in Dallas area In-Reply-To: <220CA97C-A0EE-4FAD-8368-D240653A9B93@neurotica.com> References: <00c301c8abf9$be2f5ac0$14406b43@66067007> <220CA97C-A0EE-4FAD-8368-D240653A9B93@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Not that I can afford it, or perhaps I can, How much? Randy > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 18:34:22 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: Help Needed in Dallas area > > On May 2, 2008, at 2:04 PM, jose carlos valle wrote: > > by the way, How you gotto that Cray? have more there? > > I've got one for sale if you're looking...standard U.S. 110V wall > outlet powered, deskside chassis, YMP-EL92...one of the rarest, fully > operational, with operating system. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat May 3 20:37:44 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:37:44 -0300 Subject: BTW: Old manRe: Mac Mini inside a Mac Plus References: Message-ID: <017a01c8ad87$95745b00$01fea8c0@portajara> > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org Sellam is so old that he is called Ismail. I bet his son is called IsEmail. O:o) Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br PS: Ok, dumb joke, but everyone around found it to be fun :o) From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat May 3 20:55:44 2008 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 21:55:44 -0400 Subject: Mac Mini inside a Mac Plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080503215337.0382cf70@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: >http://www.destruc.tv/minitosh.php For all the folks that despise the "Macintosh aquariums" and "VAXbars" on the net... at least this guy spells it out like it is in step one: "Gut your victim Macintosh" Shouldn't this be an episode of next season's "Law & Order SVU?" ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 3 21:28:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 19:28:23 -0700 Subject: Low-temp desoldering of SMT Message-ID: <481CBCD7.6764.26ABCDD@cclist.sydex.com> You've probably all heard about Chip-Quik--a low-temp soldering alloy used to desolder SMT at about 150C. Today, I took a scrap board and decided to try my own version. Normally, I keep a fair amount of Wood's metal around for bending thinwall brass tube (filling a tube with the stuff keeps it from collapsing while bending). WM melts at about 158F (70C) and I wondered if the considerably cheaper Wood's metal would do the job that Quik-Chip is sold for. It does--I just removed a TSOP28 package using nothing more than a couple of scraps of WM and a 90W PAR38 spotlight to heat the PCB. I moved the WM around the chip leads a bit and then grabbed the chip with a bit of silicone putty on the end of a fingerip. The chip came right up. A little flux might have speeded things up a bit, but I didn't bother with it. Cleanup was easy--shake the excess metal off the board, wipe down the pads. I'd probably clean the pads a bit more if I wanted to resolder a chip there. Thought folks might like to know. WM is marketed under several trade names, such as Cerrobend. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 3 21:40:50 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 19:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Mini inside a Mac Plus In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080503215337.0382cf70@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "May 3, 8 09:55:44 pm" Message-ID: <200805040240.m442eoYB010008@floodgap.com> > Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: > > >http://www.destruc.tv/minitosh.php > > For all the folks that despise the "Macintosh aquariums" and "VAXbars" on > the net... at least this guy spells it out like it is in step one: > > "Gut your victim Macintosh" > > Shouldn't this be an episode of next season's "Law & Order SVU?" You mean the episode where the guy guts a *working* Plus? (I don't remember if the page said it was working or not.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And if I claim to be a wise man/it surely means that I don't know. -- Kansas From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 3 23:45:27 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC In-Reply-To: <3C391822-4B94-4F62-9B1A-BE07B13441ED@neurotica.com> References: <3C391822-4B94-4F62-9B1A-BE07B13441ED@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200805040446.AAA22751@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 13W3 -> 3 BNC is common in the world of older Sun workstations, in > the Sun3 and early Sun4 lines. It is? I think all the Sun 13W3<->nBNC adapters I've seen have been 4BNC or 5BNC, not 3BNC. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From steerex at ccvn.com Sat May 3 18:29:32 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 19:29:32 -0400 Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <000d01c8977b$ae372400$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1207479444.6302.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000901c8980a$bf0ffc90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> > Thanks for your work on this Steve, I need to find the one or two I > spotted again, but yours was cleaner than mine. > > I tested the PCI NI-Analyser card again on the HP150 - which is the > working HP-IB machine I have. Since I didn't know better I captured > everything again - including timings. For someone writing an emulator, > this could be helpful, but I don't know if you want another huge capture > file of boring Amigo protocol stuff. I've attached what I did and > captures of the analyser interface - I'd welcome your advice on what I > should be capturing that would be useful for protocol understanding. > > Hope all's well and thanks again, > Rodney Brown > Hey Rodney, Hope you don't mind but, I'm gonna post this to the classiccmp list. Someone there may want to follow the discussion. What kind of system are you running the PCI Analyzer on? Windows? Linux? I have FINALLY made some more progress with the ISA GPIB card in my Linux box. Unfortunately, it uses the NEC7210 chip which has been a pain in the rear to program. I found a few snippets of code online but really didn't find anything that directly addressed my needs. I have been able to read and write small data packets to the HP7980 but that's about all. With the tape drive, you have to worry about block sizes, file and record markers, rewind, readahead... Blah... Blah... Blah... As of now, I have not yet figured out how to handle all that stuff. So, I decided to take a break from the tape drive and concentrate on the HPIB CS80 disks. I suspect the HP150 is using the "Cold Load" command to read the tape on bootup. I have not been able to read a tape using that method on my PC (yet). I was already familiar with the CS80 protocol so, I just had to learn to program the 7210 chip. It took a while but, I can finally, with some confidence, program the 7210 to do what I need. I was also able to write some code to support a couple of HP instruments (multimeter / frequency counter) over HPIB. Programming the CS80 disk was fairly easy and, at this point, I can read or write a raw binary file to any partition (including boot) of the HPIB disk from my PC (linux). That disk is then bootable from the HP1000 with a CS80 ROM. I have created a small "library" of sorts with the common CS80 methods and another with the HPIB methods in another. I'm not a "C" programmer so, anyone looking at the code would probably think it's sloppy. But, it works (sorta) :-) The question is: What exactly are your goals at this point? If you're still trying to boot the HP150 off the HP7980, I can probably provide some additional insight into the tape protocol although, I cannot provide any specific info for programming the HP150. One of the problems with programming the tape drive is that you cannot slow down the data interchange to see exactly what it is doing. With the disk there is no "timeout" for any of the transactions. You can slow down (or halt) the bus and watch the interaction between the disk and the computer without causing any errors. You cannot do this with the tape drive. It'll throw an error :-( Furthermore, when the computer boots there is a large chunk of data that is passed across the bus this bloats your analyzer's capture and makes it much harder to pick out the important bits. You might try to capture only the transactions where the ATN is asserted. This will filter out the "data" and only leave the commands to wade through. If you have a HPIB card with the 7210 or 9914 I can perhaps provide some insight into register level programming with those chips. I have not given up on the AMIGO tape protocol. I just have been focused on other stuff :-) There is a steep learning curve when tackling all these protocols at the same time. My suggestion would be to break up the project into smaller chunks. The first thing is to figure out how to do the register level programming on the HPIB card. You will need to know how to send and receive "commands" and "data", how to conduct a "parallel poll", and how to change "states" on the card. The tape and disk protocols are not simple, I would also suggest using a simple device (HPIB meter etc...) to refine you programming. Use the analyzer card to watch the bus to see exactly what happens when a certain chunk of code is executed. Once you get predictable results, it'll be easier to tackle a more complex protocol. Talk to me about the HP150. What HPIB chip does it use? Does your version of DOS/UNIX have the tools that you need to do register level programming? I have HPUX 10.20 on a HP9000/800 that has HPIB support built in. Does the 150 have this kinda support? See ya, SteveRob steerex at ccvn.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun May 4 04:49:28 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 10:49:28 +0100 Subject: Mac Mini inside a Mac Plus In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080503215337.0382cf70@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080503215337.0382cf70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1209894568.22303.3.camel@elric> On Sat, 2008-05-03 at 21:55 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: > > >http://www.destruc.tv/minitosh.php > > For all the folks that despise the "Macintosh aquariums" and "VAXbars" on > the net... at least this guy spells it out like it is in step one: > > "Gut your victim Macintosh" > > Shouldn't this be an episode of next season's "Law & Order SVU?" Also from TFA: """Our machine gave up its ghost long ago, so we didn't lose any good meat gutting the proud beast. This is a nostalgia peice , we're only gaining out of this sacrifice. Every effort was made to recycle classic electronics where possible.""" Gordon From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun May 4 07:08:10 2008 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 05:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> Message-ID: <504833.34022.qm@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/3/08, Steve Robertson wrote: > I have created a small "library" of sorts with > the common CS80 methods > and another with the HPIB methods in another. I'm not a Steve, I'd love to see what you did with the CS80 methods under Linux if you're willing to share. Some time back we talked about this (maybe 2 years ago) but as so often happens, life got in the way and I haven't progressed my CS80 project very much. I have a working build of the HPIB library under Linux and had started to poke around the CS80 state model documentation. My goal is to provide an emulated CS80 disk that I can boot my HP64000s and HP9000s from. -Dave From ms at vaxcluster.de Sun May 4 09:16:06 2008 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 16:16:06 +0200 Subject: DECserver 90TL... Message-ID: <481DC526.7010507@vaxcluster.de> Hello, i found two DECserver 90TL last week at the local flea market. They seem to be in good shape, but i can't find the boot software for them - the file MNENG1.SYS should be all i need... The Digital Networks web site is no more, and after one week of googling and researching i give up: Does anybody where i can find this file? Greetings ms -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Man hat Gedanken, die bleiben ewig d?mlich..." (Campino) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 4 10:02:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC Message-ID: <3439.96.243.162.27.1209913341.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Sun, May 4, 2008 12:45 am, der Mouse wrote: >> 13W3 -> 3 BNC is common in the world of older Sun workstations, in >> the Sun3 and early Sun4 lines. > > It is? I think all the Sun 13W3<->nBNC adapters I've seen have been > 4BNC or 5BNC, not 3BNC. Ack, you are correct...I've gotten my old Sun monitors mixed up with my old SGI monitors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun May 4 11:28:33 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:28:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 2008, Richard wrote: > I don't know why I never realized this before, but the Tektronix 4010 > graphics terminal is implemented enitrely in SSI TTL logic and > contains no microprocessor. I guess that makes sense with it being > introduced in 1971, but it just suddenly hit me like a brick. Ehm, all older Tektronix terminals (like the 4006, 4010, 4012, 4014, 4015) are "discrete". > PS: anyone need a 4010 service manual online? I have one and just > noticed it hasn't been scanned on the net anywhere. I think they are somewhere on pdp8.net Christian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 4 11:44:59 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 09:44:59 -0700 Subject: 8251 troubles In-Reply-To: <481848FC.3565.A9F2A2E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200804300652.m3U6qAFk081601@dewey.classiccmp.org> <481848FC.3565.A9F2A2E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck I got some time to look at things. I used my, almost logic probe, a Leader LBO-518. I could see the RxRDY flick for each character sent. Some more checking and I realized the problem. The routine that displays to the screen did an EI at the end before the RET. The interrupt was stealing the character from me while I was trying to get it through the polling. I thought I'd looked at that code before and not seen the EI but checking again and there it was. Age is slowing me down. I can make progress now. Thanks Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:25:00 -0700> Subject: RE: 8251 troubles> > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:49:41 -0700> From: dwight elvey > > > Still a strange problem.> > This is past the point where I'd have my logic probe out (if you > don't have one, they're easy enough to make)--and this is a perfect > application for one, as the signals aren't super-fast.> > Bring your test up, send a character to get the software into the > state where it quits receiving.> > Let's check the static signals first.> > Is pin 22 (DSR/) low? If not, check your "null modem" cable and any > level conversion logic upstream from that pin. While you're at it, > check that pin 23 (RTS/) is low so that you can transmit when the > time comes.> > Now for the dynamic tests. A logic probe with a "pulse stretcher" is > needed here. Fortunately, most have this feature.> > Next, put a probe on pin 3 (RxD) and make sure that it's pulsing with > each character sent.> > And then check pin 14 (RxRDY). Does it pulse high with each received > character? If it goes high with the first and stays high, then you're > not retrieving characters after the first. > > But if it pulses high only once and then stays low, check your chode. > Somehow, you're disabling the receiver, perhaps as part of the "TOUT" > code. (This is bit 2 of the command word and must be set for the > receive side to operate). The third possibility, that RxRDY pulses > with each received character, says that you're actually picking up > the data and it's not getting echoed back (hint: check the status of > your CTS line). > > Let us know what you find.> > Best,> Chuck> _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008 From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sun May 4 11:54:01 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:54:01 +0200 Subject: DECserver 90TL... References: <481DC526.7010507@vaxcluster.de> Message-ID: <001e01c8ae07$745cebf0$0501a8c0@xp1800> Micheal, I think you sould ask Bernd from www.vaxman.de He has a lot of Vax related soft and hardware. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schneider" To: Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: DECserver 90TL... > Hello, > > i found two DECserver 90TL last week at the local flea market. They seem > to be in good shape, but i can't find the boot software for them - the > file MNENG1.SYS should be all i need... > > The Digital Networks web site is no more, and after one week of googling > and researching i give up: Does anybody where i can find this file? > > Greetings > ms > > > -- > Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de > Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > "Man hat Gedanken, die bleiben ewig d?mlich..." (Campino) > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 4 14:17:08 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> References: <000d01c8977b$ae372400$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1207479444.6302.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000901c8980a$bf0ffc90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> Message-ID: <49529.71.139.37.220.1209928628.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Steve Robertson wrote: > I have FINALLY made some more progress with the ISA GPIB card in my > Linux box. Unfortunately, it uses the NEC7210 chip which has been a pain > in the rear to program. I found a few snippets of code online but really > didn't find anything that directly addressed my needs. Is there some reason you want to access the 7210 directly rather than using the Linux-GPIB library and driver? http://linux-gpib.sourceforge.net/doc_html/index.html I've successfully used that with several ISA, PCI, and PCMCIA cards, including one that was 7210 based. My most recent use was to talk to HP 9144 and 9145 cartridge tape drives. To act as a device rather than the controller, poll ibsta() and use the returned status to determine when the controller wants you to talk or listen. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 4 14:21:49 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 13:21:49 -0600 Subject: govliq: 125+ NIB 9-track tapes (Richmond, VA) Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 4 14:33:04 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:33:04 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Hence "I have two 4700As in skinless BA440s" and "I'd love to properly >> rackmount them". > > Surely once you've deskinned a BA440, you bolt it to the rack > via the holes in the flanges at the front. The BA441 chassis is a proper rackmount box for those machines which sits on slides. Similarly, a BA431 is a rackmount box with a 12-slot Qbus backplane. > Have I misunderstood or do you think there is some special > rack-mounting hardware available? There is. It's called a "BA441 Chassis". Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 4 14:45:33 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <49529.71.139.37.220.1209928628.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <000d01c8977b$ae372400$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1207479444.6302.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000901c8980a$bf0ffc90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> <49529.71.139.37.220.1209928628.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <39447.71.139.37.220.1209930333.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > To act as a device rather than the controller, poll ibsta() and use > the returned status to determine when the controller wants you to > talk or listen. Just for clarification, I didn't mean busy-wait polling. Obviously one uses a loop with ibwait(), and checks ibsta() only when an event occurs. Eric From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun May 4 14:57:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:57:05 +0000 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> Hi, all, I was staring at an SBC I have here with a 6MHz Z-80, some ROM, some RAM, and a 26-pin off-board bus for some Z80-PIO boards (this thing was built as a multi-parallel-printer switcher). I've been musing about what it would take to boot CP/M up on this. For user I/O, I was planning on a console serial port and a terminal/terminal emulator. I have IM6402s on hand, but I'd be interested in hearing if certain other chips are preferred, based on what BIOS code is floating around out there. I also have a 16550, but I don't think I have any Z80-SIO chips handy. For mass storage, I was planning on either Compact Flash or an SD card. I think I've seen both as I googled around for modern SBCs. Any of the media I have lying around is plenty large enough (I even have some 4MB CFs and a 2.5MB full-sized PCMCIA flash card on hand). I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? Did they temporarily ghost the ROM on top of RAM until some bit of code could read ROM and write RAM then bank out the ROM? Since I think I "need" at least 48K of RAM, I was planning on a pair of 62256s. I could easily do 56K of RAM low and 8K of ROM high, I think, unless there's some other arrangement that's obvious to try for a simple design. I've never tried writing a BIOS for a CP/M machine, but my understanding is that things are modular enough that once you know what I/O chips you have and at what I/O addresses, for a straightforward, non-clever design, the coding is equally straightforward and non-clever (but please feel free to enlighten me if otherwise). Thanks for any tips, especially from anyone on the list who has ever rolled their own CP/M machine. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-May-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -105.4 F (-76.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 77 Barometer 691.6 mb (10194 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 4 15:08:24 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 16:08:24 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> Message-ID: On 5/4/08 3:57 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > Hi, all, > > I was staring at an SBC I have here with a 6MHz Z-80, some ROM, some RAM, > and a 26-pin off-board bus for some Z80-PIO boards (this thing was built > as a multi-parallel-printer switcher). I've been musing about what it > would take to boot CP/M up on this. > {snippage} > -ethan I know and appreciate the DIY nature of this, having worked on a few 6502 SBC designs even though there were a few out there already, but maybe take a look at the P112 (http://frotz.homeunix.org/p112/) for some inspiration. IIRC, it's the size of a 3.5" floppy drive. I actually built one of the original versions but I never got down to using it much. I might have to pull it out and play with it now that I know more about bringing up a CP/M system than when I did back then. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 4 15:22:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 16:22:33 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200805041622.33400.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 04 May 2008 15:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems > were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" > in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? > How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? Did they temporarily > ghost the ROM on top of RAM until some bit of code could read ROM > and write RAM then bank out the ROM? Since I think I "need" at > least 48K of RAM, I was planning on a pair of 62256s. I could easily > do 56K of RAM low and 8K of ROM high, I think, unless there's some > other arrangement that's obvious to try for a simple design. I have some amount of docs on that stuff scattered here and there, and am not real clear at the moment just where it's all located. I do recall some stuff, though. One that comes to mind had the ROM (or EPROM?) mapped in at reset, and one of the coldstart initialization routines copied some small portion of that up into high RAM. I know that the Osborne Executive had 3 "banks" one of which had the eprom and video RAM mapped into it. I think that some of the TRS-80 machines needed a special version of CP/M because they had ROM in low memory and no way to map it out. There were probably other variations I'm not thinking of besides. > I've never tried writing a BIOS for a CP/M machine, but my understanding > is that things are modular enough that once you know what I/O chips > you have and at what I/O addresses, for a straightforward, non-clever > design, the coding is equally straightforward and non-clever (but please > feel free to enlighten me if otherwise). That's my understanding of it too, though the mechanics of actually putting together a bootable CP/M system are something I'm still a bit fuzzy on. I probably oughta do that with my BBII one of these days. I have a fair pile of downloaded files pertaining to this and other CP/M-related stuff, what used to be that portion of the files section on my old BBS on hand here, I can send you a list of what's there off-list if you like. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 15:16:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:16:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <002101c8ad6c$2e7b39c0$0501a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 4, 8 00:22:27 am Message-ID: > > I'll make some pictures one of the next days, and mail them to you. > How big is your mailbox ;-) No, please don't sent them here. I am on a slow dial-up connection, and I have a text-only display anyway... If you want to send me pictures, please send them to tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk I have quite a bit of space there. > But as I recall, there are two rows of connectors. My V5.0 modules have a 2-row connector mounted vertically at each end (narrow side) of the PCB. > I'm not sure but ypu 'll see when I made the pictures. > I've another Integral on its way (seapost) from downunder, bought it because > it has the basic rom and serialcard. Nice. I bought a second Integral earlier in the year to get a serial board... It camew with a couple of HPIB drives, including a version of the 9123 I'd never seen before (using the half-helght 34 pin drives, like the one in a 9114B), etc. I've been looking at my Itegral today, and noticed something rather odd. After booting, it turns on the floppy drive motor and keeps it running. At first I thought it was a hardware problem with the drive, but a quick check showed that the MotorOn line on the disk interface connector was being asserted. My ohter Integral (also V5.0 ROMs) does the same thing, so I'd be suprised if it was a hardware fault in both machines There's a litte switch on the disk drive PCB at the front edge (not the drive select switch at the back near the interface connector). As supplied it was in position 'A', which means the motor runs all the time if MotorOn is asserted. Flipping it to 'B' means the motor onl;y runs if there's a disk in (and MotorOn is asserted). It seesm to work correctly when set like that, but it's not how HP supplied it. Other Integral owners : Do you floppy drives run all the time? How is that swithc set?. What version ROMs do you have? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 15:29:59 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:29:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> from "Steve Robertson" at May 3, 8 07:29:32 pm Message-ID: > Talk to me about the HP150. What HPIB chip does it use? Does your It's a TMS9914 (I've just checked the TechRef), directly on the 8088 bus. In general HP's HPIB-capable computers of that vintage used the 9914. Some peripherals used the Intel 8291, others bit-banged the protocol using a microcontroller. Later computers used an HP custom chip called 'Medusa' IIRC. Earlier computers either used a microcontroller or discrete TTL chips. > version of DOS/UNIX have the tools that you need to do register level THe HP150, being an 8088 machine, has no hardware protection at all, and the TechRef gives the addreses for the 9914 registers (and tells you to look at the data sheet for said chip :-)). There is an MS-DOS device driver for it, which implelents a subset of the HPIB functions using ioctl() calls (basically, according to the manual, it only supports functions where the HP150 initiates the operation). One disadvantage of the HP150 for this is that it only supports one HPIB port. On the HP9000/200 machines you can have 2 or more HPIB interfacs, it's best to have one for you system disks, etc and the other for talking to the device you're hacking about with. That way, if you make a mistake you'll not corrupt your system disk. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun May 4 16:17:31 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 16:17:31 -0500 Subject: blogpost: Tektronix terminals and Apollo DN10000 In-Reply-To: <20080504133923.9696838000750@portal.seefried.com> References: <200805031453.m43ErQMV036822@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080504133923.9696838000750@portal.seefried.com> Message-ID: <481E27EB.9040504@gmail.com> Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Jules Richardson >>> >>> As I understand it, the DN10K uses a custom RISC processor and not a >>> 680x0. >> >> Indeed - a88k (not to be confused with m88k) wasn't it? > > Not m88k. Totally custom job called PRISM. No, not m88k. I've always seen them referenced as a88k (to distinguish from m88k!), but I'd forgotten that PRISM was also an official name for them... Surprisingly, there's actually a wiki article about the processor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_PRISM cheers Jules From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sun May 4 16:26:42 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:26:42 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals References: Message-ID: <004101c8ae2d$b8e3b030$0501a8c0@xp1800> The V1.0 ROM's have 2 single row connectors on the longside of the print one up one under. Checked today, and the floppymotor keeps on running... Pictures are made and on it's way to you. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:16 PM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals >> >> I'll make some pictures one of the next days, and mail them to you. >> How big is your mailbox ;-) > > No, please don't sent them here. I am on a slow dial-up connection, and I > have a text-only display anyway... > > If you want to send me pictures, please send them to > tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk > > I have quite a bit of space there. > >> But as I recall, there are two rows of connectors. > > My V5.0 modules have a 2-row connector mounted vertically at each end > (narrow side) of the PCB. > >> I'm not sure but ypu 'll see when I made the pictures. >> I've another Integral on its way (seapost) from downunder, bought it >> because >> it has the basic rom and serialcard. > > Nice. I bought a second Integral earlier in the year to get a serial > board... It camew with a couple of HPIB drives, including a version of > the 9123 I'd never seen before (using the half-helght 34 pin drives, like > the one in a 9114B), etc. > > I've been looking at my Itegral today, and noticed something rather odd. > After booting, it turns on the floppy drive motor and keeps it running. > At first I thought it was a hardware problem with the drive, but a quick > check showed that the MotorOn line on the disk interface connector was > being asserted. My ohter Integral (also V5.0 ROMs) does the same thing, > so I'd be suprised if it was a hardware fault in both machines > > There's a litte switch on the disk drive PCB at the front edge (not the > drive select switch at the back near the interface connector). As > supplied it was in position 'A', which means the motor runs all the time > if MotorOn is asserted. Flipping it to 'B' means the motor onl;y runs if > there's a disk in (and MotorOn is asserted). It seesm to work correctly > when set like that, but it's not how HP supplied it. > > Other Integral owners : Do you floppy drives run all the time? How is > that swithc set?. What version ROMs do you have? > > -tony > > From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sun May 4 16:58:29 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:58:29 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals References: <004101c8ae2d$b8e3b030$0501a8c0@xp1800> Message-ID: <000401c8ae31$fcf081f0$0501a8c0@xp1800> Correction one 36pin row on the underside of the pcb. Was sleeping I think.. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals > The V1.0 ROM's have 2 single row connectors on the longside of the print > one up one under. > Checked today, and the floppymotor keeps on running... > Pictures are made and on it's way to you. > > Rik > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:16 PM > Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals > > >>> >>> I'll make some pictures one of the next days, and mail them to you. >>> How big is your mailbox ;-) >> >> No, please don't sent them here. I am on a slow dial-up connection, and I >> have a text-only display anyway... >> >> If you want to send me pictures, please send them to >> tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk >> >> I have quite a bit of space there. >> >>> But as I recall, there are two rows of connectors. >> >> My V5.0 modules have a 2-row connector mounted vertically at each end >> (narrow side) of the PCB. >> >>> I'm not sure but ypu 'll see when I made the pictures. >>> I've another Integral on its way (seapost) from downunder, bought it >>> because >>> it has the basic rom and serialcard. >> >> Nice. I bought a second Integral earlier in the year to get a serial >> board... It camew with a couple of HPIB drives, including a version of >> the 9123 I'd never seen before (using the half-helght 34 pin drives, like >> the one in a 9114B), etc. >> >> I've been looking at my Itegral today, and noticed something rather odd. >> After booting, it turns on the floppy drive motor and keeps it running. >> At first I thought it was a hardware problem with the drive, but a quick >> check showed that the MotorOn line on the disk interface connector was >> being asserted. My ohter Integral (also V5.0 ROMs) does the same thing, >> so I'd be suprised if it was a hardware fault in both machines >> >> There's a litte switch on the disk drive PCB at the front edge (not the >> drive select switch at the back near the interface connector). As >> supplied it was in position 'A', which means the motor runs all the time >> if MotorOn is asserted. Flipping it to 'B' means the motor onl;y runs if >> there's a disk in (and MotorOn is asserted). It seesm to work correctly >> when set like that, but it's not how HP supplied it. >> >> Other Integral owners : Do you floppy drives run all the time? How is >> that swithc set?. What version ROMs do you have? >> >> -tony >> >> > > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 4 16:58:57 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:58:57 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <000c01c8ae32$0e267ba0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> ________________________________ Hi, all, I was staring at an SBC I have here with a 6MHz Z-80, some ROM, some RAM, and a 26-pin off-board bus for some Z80-PIO boards (this thing was built as a multi-parallel-printer switcher). I've been musing about what it would take to boot CP/M up on this. For user I/O, I was planning on a console serial port and a terminal/terminal emulator. I have IM6402s on hand, but I'd be interested in hearing if certain other chips are preferred, based on what BIOS code is floating around out there. I also have a 16550, but I don't think I have any Z80-SIO chips handy. For mass storage, I was planning on either Compact Flash or an SD card. I think I've seen both as I googled around for modern SBCs. Any of the media I have lying around is plenty large enough (I even have some 4MB CFs and a 2.5MB full-sized PCMCIA flash card on hand). I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? Did they temporarily ghost the ROM on top of RAM until some bit of code could read ROM and write RAM then bank out the ROM? Since I think I "need" at least 48K of RAM, I was planning on a pair of 62256s. I could easily do 56K of RAM low and 8K of ROM high, I think, unless there's some other arrangement that's obvious to try for a simple design. I've never tried writing a BIOS for a CP/M machine, but my understanding is that things are modular enough that once you know what I/O chips you have and at what I/O addresses, for a straightforward, non-clever design, the coding is equally straightforward and non-clever (but please feel free to enlighten me if otherwise). Thanks for any tips, especially from anyone on the list who has ever rolled their own CP/M machine. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-May-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -105.4 F (-76.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 77 Barometer 691.6 mb (10194 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html -----REPLY----- Hi Ethan, Funny you should mention the subject, I am working on a very similar project. Last year, I made a completely home brew Z80 computer with prototype boards. It is a fun project and you can definitely build your own CP/M computer from scratch. It really is not that hard. This year, I am remaking the design using manufactured PCBs. I recently got my first batch of prototype PCBs and have been building up and testing them. So far, I have gotten the CPU, ROM, RAM, UART, and most of the glue logic working and tested. It is not complete yet as I still need to wring out much of the hardware and have not even started on the PPI or RTC. However, last year I was able to boot the previous system into its monitor and even boot CP/M. CP/M used a 32K ROM drive for drive A:, a 448K RAM drive for drive B:. I implemented an IDE port and a hard disk for drive C:. Those all worked pretty good. I built but never tested a floppy drive interface. The whole system is pretty simple, uses plain 74LSxxx chips, no programmable parts (except the EPROM) or hard to get parts. No SMT or funky technologies, just plain through hole DIP chips. I have all the software and am presently going through the library reinstalling it on the new system. So far, I have most of the easy stuff working. I do have the RAMless monitor working and next will be the regular monitor. Finally it will be the CP/M system and the RTC software. Anyway, if your interested, I am keeping a small Google group of files and photos at: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks! Andrew Lynch From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 4 17:22:21 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:22:21 +0100 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c8ae35$597d9040$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Antonio Carlini wrote: >> Surely once you've deskinned a BA440, you bolt it to the rack >> via the holes in the flanges at the front. > > The BA441 chassis is a proper rackmount box for those machines which > sits on slides. OK, now that I've found a piccie, I see the difference. It seems to be half the vertical height of a BA440. But if you deskin a BA440, the holes in the flanges are clearly there to allow rackmounting - what else could they be for? It looks like on the BA441 you need to slide out the chassis to get at the Q-Bus devices and the console connections. The cable wiring looks to be "fun". Do you _really_ need one of those? Back-to-back BA440s works (or worked for me) and gives you the same VUP-density in a rack. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 03/05/2008 11:22 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 4 18:26:02 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:26:02 -0400 Subject: New to VAX (4000/200) In-Reply-To: <003201c8ae35$597d9040$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <003201c8ae35$597d9040$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <200805041926.02684.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 04 May 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > But if you deskin a BA440, the holes in the flanges are clearly > there to allow rackmounting - what else could they be for? > > It looks like on the BA441 you need to slide out the chassis to > get at the Q-Bus devices and the console connections. The cable > wiring looks to be "fun". Do you _really_ need one of those? > Back-to-back BA440s works (or worked for me) and gives you the > same VUP-density in a rack. The BA4[34]0/BA213 out of the skins is intended to be mounted in a short-depth or telcom rack (eg, a DECserver 500 or CMR53). The BA441/431 version is designed to be mounted in a deep (normal) rack. Also, mounting BA213-style chassis back-to-back screws up the normal front-to-back cooling that you want in a rack. Also, I haven't measured mine, but I'm pretty sure that the deep rack versions (6U maybe?) are less than half the height of the "vertical" versions. They're pretty much a BA213 set on its back, and with the drives coming out of where the top of the BA213 chassis used to be. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 4 19:14:15 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:14:15 -0600 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 May 2008 18:28:33 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > On Sat, 3 May 2008, Richard wrote: > > I don't know why I never realized this before, but the Tektronix 4010 > > graphics terminal is implemented enitrely in SSI TTL logic and > > contains no microprocessor. I guess that makes sense with it being > > introduced in 1971, but it just suddenly hit me like a brick. > > Ehm, all older Tektronix terminals (like the 4006, 4010, 4012, 4014, 4015) > are "discrete". Hence the "duh". I should have figured this out, but it didn't dawn on me until recently. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 4 19:16:43 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:16:43 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4010 service manual (was: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 May 2008 18:28:33 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > > PS: anyone need a 4010 service manual online? I have one and just > > noticed it hasn't been scanned on the net anywhere. > > I think they are somewhere on pdp8.net I just looked in their docs section and didn't see it. Its also not listed as online by -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 4 20:03:03 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:03:03 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <002b01c8ae4b$c5a69cb0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, all, I was staring at an SBC I have here with a 6MHz Z-80, some ROM, some RAM, and a 26-pin off-board bus for some Z80-PIO boards (this thing was built as a multi-parallel-printer switcher). I've been musing about what it would take to boot CP/M up on this. For user I/O, I was planning on a console serial port and a terminal/terminal emulator. I have IM6402s on hand, but I'd be interested in hearing if certain other chips are preferred, based on what BIOS code is floating around out there. I also have a 16550, but I don't think I have any Z80-SIO chips handy. For mass storage, I was planning on either Compact Flash or an SD card. I think I've seen both as I googled around for modern SBCs. Any of the media I have lying around is plenty large enough (I even have some 4MB CFs and a 2.5MB full-sized PCMCIA flash card on hand). I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? Did they temporarily ghost the ROM on top of RAM until some bit of code could read ROM and write RAM then bank out the ROM? Since I think I "need" at least 48K of RAM, I was planning on a pair of 62256s. I could easily do 56K of RAM low and 8K of ROM high, I think, unless there's some other arrangement that's obvious to try for a simple design. I've never tried writing a BIOS for a CP/M machine, but my understanding is that things are modular enough that once you know what I/O chips you have and at what I/O addresses, for a straightforward, non-clever design, the coding is equally straightforward and non-clever (but please feel free to enlighten me if otherwise). Thanks for any tips, especially from anyone on the list who has ever rolled their own CP/M machine. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-May-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -105.4 F (-76.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 77 Barometer 691.6 mb (10194 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html ________________________________ -----REPLY----- Hi Ethan, I reread your email and thought I'd try to answer some of your questions regarding a simple do it yourself CP/M computer. My first piece of advice is to ask Allison ;-) since she has done this dozens of times and can boot CP/M blind folded on a spark gap radio. Seriously. She is amazing and has helped me many times. Mucho Thank you Allison! Your basic hardware certainly sounds CP/M capable. I assume that it can swap RAM in to the lower pages though, right? CP/M requires RAM at $0000 through some address (depends). It likes RAM all the way to $FFFF but can live with ROM in the $F000 range. Less RAM than 48K makes things difficult though, IMO. How I implemented my machine was to use a memory configuration latch (74LS273). On reset, the ROM is swapped in to the lower 32K page. There is a fixed page of RAM in the upper 32K page. The ROM loader program does some simple copying of data from the ROM to the upper RAM page. Then it writes to the memory configuration latch to swap out the ROM and have a full 64K RAM. The whole thing is amazingly simple. The schematics are all on my N8VEM page. A pair of 62256's would work but I prefer a solution using a 512Kx8 SRAM. That lets you use the 64K for RAM and the rest for a RAM drive. Whatever does it for you though. Some people like the dual 62256's and it does simplify the circuit a bit. Writing the CBIOS is actually not that hard. I wrote one more or less based on the one in the Andy Laird's CP/M programmers guide book. It was recommended by Allison and is *the* reference book AFAIK. CP/M is a great OS and is rather portable considering everything it does. I use 16550 UARTs but the CBIOS abstracts all those details away. I think CP/M could care less what sort of serial port you use, even if you use one at all. Just implement the CBIOS IO routines and it'll work. Same thing for drives; you can use floppy drives, memory, IDE, hard disks, whatever from CP/M's perspective they are all block devices. Best of luck with your project. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help! Andrew Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun May 4 20:25:47 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 01:25:47 +0000 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <002b01c8ae4b$c5a69cb0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <002b01c8ae4b$c5a69cb0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20080505012547.GA15459@usap.gov> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 09:03:03PM -0400, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi Ethan, I reread your email and thought I'd try to answer some of your > questions regarding a simple do it yourself CP/M computer. Thanks. > My first piece of advice is to ask Allison ;-) since she has done this > dozens of times and can boot CP/M blind folded on a spark gap radio. Sure. I was hoping she would chime in. My experience over the years with CP/M has been somewhat tangental (I've worked on Kapros at work back in 1980s, I own a couple of Kaypros still, and I've done a little bit with 22disk and such under MS-DOS), but everytime Allison posts on CP/M, I learn something. > Your basic hardware certainly sounds CP/M capable. I assume that it can > swap RAM in to the lower pages though, right? CP/M requires RAM at $0000 > through some address (depends). Right. As it stands, the hardware probable cannot do that, but the ace up my sleeve is that there is a 16V8 GAL that is already wired to important bus signals so that it can act as the chip select circuit. I was planning on using one of the output flops as the bootstrap-ROM-enable. I've done similar sorts of things with MC68000 designs in the past. > It likes RAM all the way to $FFFF but can > live with ROM in the $F000 range. Less RAM than 48K makes things difficult > though, IMO. That's what I was unsure about - but RAM to $EFFF and ROM from $F000 on up is easy to implement. > How I implemented my machine was to use a memory configuration latch > (74LS273)... The schematics are all on my N8VEM page. I'll check those out when the sats rise here. > A pair of 62256's would work but I prefer a solution using a 512Kx8 SRAM. > That lets you use the 64K for RAM and the rest for a RAM drive. Whatever > does it for you though. I happen to have some 62256s with me, not any 512Kx8 SRAMs, and the next plane isn't for almost 6 months. > Writing the CBIOS is actually not that hard. I wrote one more or less based > on the one in the Andy Laird's CP/M programmers guide book. It was > recommended by Allison and is *the* reference book AFAIK. CP/M is a great > OS and is rather portable considering everything it does. Hmm... is there a soft copy of that book anywhere? It sounds like the perfect reading companion. > I use 16550 UARTs but the CBIOS abstracts all those details away. I think > CP/M could care less what sort of serial port you use, even if you use one > at all. Just implement the CBIOS IO routines and it'll work. Same thing > for drives; you can use floppy drives, memory, IDE, hard disks, whatever > from CP/M's perspective they are all block devices. Right... but what I _have_ is a choice between a 16550 and a 6402. One advantage of the 6402 is that its options are hardware selected, so the bootstrap code doesn't have to do much to be able to squirt out a message that it's alive. It's probably impractical to put a video circuit on this design, so I'm going with a serial console in the CBIOS I/O routines and shifting the burden of display and keyboard input to a dedicated device. > Best of luck with your project. Let me know if there is anything I can do > to help! Thanks. I still have lots of reading to do, as well as a bit of work to fiddle up some GAL equations to implement the memory map. It's going to be somewhat trivial to roll out a 32K RAM/8K ROM design, since there's already a pair of 28-pin sockets wired up for SRAM and EPROM. The first big trick will be mounting a second SRAM chip. I do wish I had a 512Kx8 SRAM with me, but alas, no. I think I have all the parts needed for a ROM emulator, but if not, I do have a battery-backed 8K SRAM (48Z08?) that I can program in a device programmer and treat as a ROM for firmware development. At home, I have a Grammar Engine PromICE, but I didn't happen to haul that along. Thanks for the pointers. I'll check out your project when the 'net comes up for us. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.9 F (-56.6 C) Windchill -103.1 F (-75.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.0 kts Grid 41 Barometer 693.6 mb (10119 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun May 4 21:27:36 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 22:27:36 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <20080505012547.GA15459@usap.gov> References: <002b01c8ae4b$c5a69cb0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <20080505012547.GA15459@usap.gov> Message-ID: <4affc5e0805041927p6f6a4b55vedcc0b6cb453e4f9@mail.gmail.com> On a tangent, I am curious: how difficult is it to make some form of CP/M-68k work on a bare-bones 68000 or 68008 system? Long ago, I did wire up a 68008 system with leftover chips; but my memory is fuzzy. Can't even remember if the DTACK grounded trick works on the 68008, or if I forced access times somehow... What does CP/M-68k expect in RAM, ROM and I/O locations? Joe. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 4 21:43:46 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:43:46 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> Message-ID: At 7:57 PM +0000 5/4/08, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Thanks for any tips, especially from anyone on the list who has ever >rolled their own CP/M machine. You might want to talk to Allison, this sounds like her sort of project. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 4 22:54:30 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 20:54:30 -0700 Subject: C64 Cartridge disassembly? Message-ID: Strange question, but does anyone know how to get a C64 cartridge case apart without breaking it? I have a bad "Epyx Fast Load" cartridge, and need a case for my "MMC Replay" w/RR-Net. I still haven't really had time to do much with the MMC Replay, I have managed to get a few things to run from it (the C1541 emulation is pretty bad). I have managed to successfully get a DHCP lease for the RR-Net, but haven't gotten it to talk to anything. I finally got some of my floppies back out of storage (put them up on accident just before I bought the MMC Replay, and I want to see about making and writing out D64 images. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 4 22:54:48 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 20:54:48 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <481E0F70.7020001@gmail.com> <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov >> > I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems > were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" > in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? Hi Most ROM based machines do some kind of shadow method to boot, unless one has a front panel to select the boot address. Other than that, there is no particular reason to shadow the high memory ROM. My CP/M system is completely RAM. The disk is DMA and has a built in boot strap boot from disk. No ROM at all in my machine. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get Free (PRODUCT) RED? Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 From lee at geekdot.com Sun May 4 23:03:16 2008 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 06:03:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <3751.84.69.50.239.1209960196.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > On a tangent, I am curious: how difficult is it to make some form of > CP/M-68k work on a bare-bones 68000 or 68008 system? I've made a BIOS that seems to work and that fits in less than 2K. The thing I can't seem to do is find all the parts to make up a boot image to let me use a CP/M-68K C compiler to compile the sources to the parts I need to make a boot image. > What does CP/M-68k expect in RAM, ROM and I/O locations? It seems to expect to run in RAM, I/O is abstracted through system calls using TRAP #3 > Can't even remember if the DTACK grounded trick works on the 68008, It does. Lee. From devonstopps at gmail.com Sun May 4 23:10:02 2008 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:10:02 -0400 Subject: OT: FIB Microscopy Ideas + Request for 7409 Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20080504233722.021794c0@pop.gmail.com> We recently had a Focused Ion Beam (FIB) microscopy system installed in our lab - which I've just started to play around with. FIBs are used now fairly widely in the semiconductor industry to modify prototype chips - you can etch or deposit metal/insulator at the 100nm scale. Check out fibics.com for some more info; no relation to me. I wondered if anyone had any neat ideas of what to do with it? Both out of interest, and for a demo for some highschool students who will be here on a Nanotechnology course. I de-capped a ceramic 7401 Quad NAND and a 7405 Hex Inverter - with the idea of modifying the functions. However, I can't think of too much to do with either - except maybe trying to separate the input transistor emitter on each hex inverter to make it function as a NAND. Unfortunately these were the only relatively simple chips I had in ceramic packages - I thought turning a 7409 AND into a 7401 equivalent NAND would be neat for the students to see - and at a scale they could easily work with/understand. Does anyone have any 7409 or 7408, or, a similar ECL, DTL, etc AND in ceramic packages they'd like to give up? Control of the system is fully automated; centered around a IBM PowerPC RS6000 43P running AIX.... T.H.x. Devon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun May 4 03:33:41 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 10:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC In-Reply-To: <200805040446.AAA22751@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3C391822-4B94-4F62-9B1A-BE07B13441ED@neurotica.com> <200805040446.AAA22751@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10294.217.225.77.113.1209890021.squirrel@217.225.77.113> der Mouse said: >> 13W3 -> 3 BNC is common in the world of older Sun workstations, in >> the Sun3 and early Sun4 lines. > > It is? I think all the Sun 13W3<->nBNC adapters I've seen have been > 4BNC or 5BNC, not 3BNC. I have seen those 3BNC as well. They were used with monitors that accept sync-on-green. -- Holger From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 4 08:02:18 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 09:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari score! Message-ID: I returned from a hamfest yesterday with a mountain of Atari 8bit gear: Atari 800 w/ dust-cover (slight yellowing) (2) 810 diskette drives (2) 1020 Printer/Plotters (1 new in wrapping) 410 Cassette Deck 835 Modem 850 Interface Adapter All original Atari manuals for the above in great condition! All power adapters for the above in working condition. 6 Serial cables Box of assorted joysticks and input devices Huge box of photocopied development tool manuals Still to come as soon as owner unearths them from his basement: Several hundred diskettes SWP ATR8000 CP/M extension system w/ all manuals and software Looks to be a lot of fun getting this stuff up and learning about it. I'm thinking of buying one of the SIO2PC interfaces and the APE software package so I can transfer images from the internet to workable Atari diskettes. Would appreciate any advice or opinions on this. Also, if the owner cannot locate the diskettes, what is the best way to go about bootstrapping things? Where can the various images be found on the net and is APE the best way to do this? Steve -- From steerex at ccvn.com Sun May 4 16:49:59 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 17:49:59 -0400 Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <49529.71.139.37.220.1209928628.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <000d01c8977b$ae372400$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1207479444.6302.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000901c8980a$bf0ffc90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> <49529.71.139.37.220.1209928628.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1209937799.3232.11.camel@bart> > Is there some reason you want to access the 7210 directly rather than > using the Linux-GPIB library and driver? > > http://linux-gpib.sourceforge.net/doc_html/index.html > > I've successfully used that with several ISA, PCI, and PCMCIA cards, > including one that was 7210 based. My most recent use was to talk to > HP 9144 and 9145 cartridge tape drives. > Yo, For a couple of reasons. 1.) I took a look at the Linux-GPIB project but could not get a good build on my linux box. I probably could have dinked around with it and eventually got a clean build but, didn't want to mess with the kernel too much. 2.) I looked at the sources and was able to grep some information but, not being a C++ person, really couldn't follow all of it. 3.) I feel the need to know EXACTLY how these things work. I know it's reinventing the wheel but, isn't that what we all do in this forum ;-) Eric - Somewhere I had a link to your 9144 project but can't find it. Please send the link again. See ya, SteveRob steerex at ccvn.com From steerex at ccvn.com Sun May 4 17:15:11 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:15:11 -0400 Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1209939311.3232.34.camel@bart> On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 21:29 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Talk to me about the HP150. What HPIB chip does it use? Does your > > It's a TMS9914 (I've just checked the TechRef), directly on the 8088 bus. > > In general HP's HPIB-capable computers of that vintage used the 9914. > Some peripherals used the Intel 8291, others bit-banged the protocol > using a microcontroller. Later computers used an HP custom chip called > 'Medusa' IIRC. Earlier computers either used a microcontroller or > discrete TTL chips. > > > version of DOS/UNIX have the tools that you need to do register level > > THe HP150, being an 8088 machine, has no hardware protection at all, and > the TechRef gives the addreses for the 9914 registers (and tells you to > look at the data sheet for said chip :-)). There is an MS-DOS device > driver for it, which implelents a subset of the HPIB functions using > ioctl() calls (basically, according to the manual, it only supports > functions where the HP150 initiates the operation). > Thanks Tony, I'm sure Rodney Brown would like to have the register/address mappings for the HP150. I have a reference manual for a Microsys STD-BUS HPIB card that uses the 9914. It includes a reference with Z80 source code for all the common functions. It's trivial to modify the source to "C" and compile for a PC so, when I get a chance, I'll transpose the source and post it somewhere for others to reference. I have several later HP9000's and checked the chips in them. They have a 48 pin chip and are marked 1TL1-0008. A quick google search confirms that's the "medusa" chip. HPUX 10.20 for the 9000's has HPIB support built in. Like the 150 you use ioctl() calls to access the chip. I have done a little HPIB programming on the 9000 but, was never really comfortable with the ioctl() methods. Thanks, SteveRob steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 4 17:18:53 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:18:53 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? Message-ID: <0K0D00I6D7GY9G64@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 19:57:05 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi, all, > >I was staring at an SBC I have here with a 6MHz Z-80, some ROM, some RAM, >and a 26-pin off-board bus for some Z80-PIO boards (this thing was built >as a multi-parallel-printer switcher). I've been musing about what it >would take to boot CP/M up on this. Review: For cp/m usable [runs apps not merely boot] system you need. -Z80 any speed. -56->64K of ram, more is meaningless unless yoru running MPM. Ram must be from 0000h through at least 32k preferably EFFFH as most useful apps want 48-56k. -Boot rom and shadow logic. -Mass storage (anything that can be made to look like block addresable storage.) - console device maybe simple RS232 to terminal(PC with term emulation) - printer is optional. - punch and reader devices are rarely needed/implemnted That is in as fwe words as possible. > >For user I/O, I was planning on a console serial port and a terminal/terminal >emulator. I have IM6402s on hand, but I'd be interested in hearing if >certain other chips are preferred, based on what BIOS code is floating >around out there. I also have a 16550, but I don't think I have any >Z80-SIO chips handy. If you look there will be a bios for most every thing and none will match your IO 100% due differnt addresses or disk(or disk equivilent) used. However.. they can serve as a template. FYI: a good low parts count IO would be Z80, Z80 CTC (as baud rate gen) and Z80sio(or DART). Then you can use the AmproLB and others IO for serial and two ports are handy. > >For mass storage, I was planning on either Compact Flash or an SD card. >I think I've seen both as I googled around for modern SBCs. Any of the >media I have lying around is plenty large enough (I even have some 4MB >CFs and a 2.5MB full-sized PCMCIA flash card on hand). CF is the easiest as the interface is IDE with one feature it does do 8bit transfers. To match the tiny card you can get CF to IDE adaptors with .100 pin (40 pin) cable IO. As to how much CPM can adress logical drives to 8Mb and a 32MB CF is 9$ and would partition into 4 drives nicely. >I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems >were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" >in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? >How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? Did they temporarily >ghost the ROM on top of RAM until some bit of code could read ROM >and write RAM then bank out the ROM? Since I think I "need" at >least 48K of RAM, I was planning on a pair of 62256s. I could easily >do 56K of RAM low and 8K of ROM high, I think, unless there's some >other arrangement that's obvious to try for a simple design. The BIOS needs to be in high ram for the simple case and usually copied there at boot time. So the boot is rom at 0000 (or made to appear there for boot) you copy to high ram then kill (shut off rom) using an IO port bit. Generally for simplest systems I use 16 or 32K eproms as there is plenty of space and I can put a monitor and a complete image of CP/M (CCP 2k, BDOS 3.5k, BIOS typically 1k to 4k). For somthing kike CF a BIOS will easily fit in 2.5K so the whole CP/M system image is 8K. >I've never tried writing a BIOS for a CP/M machine, but my understanding >is that things are modular enough that once you know what I/O chips >you have and at what I/O addresses, for a straightforward, non-clever >design, the coding is equally straightforward and non-clever (but please >feel free to enlighten me if otherwise). That's it. Interrupts or other features complicate it some but look at the CP/M alteration guide for the MDS800 bios example and the Skelental Cbios. FYI: Cbios is the term for anything other than the "stock" MDS800 bios with means just about every bios going! For other example BIOS look up these as I know they are on line: Compupro AmproLB Hal Bower B/P bios (very sophisticated bios) Andy Johnson-Laird (The CP/M programmer handbook) Both the basin bios and the enhanced bios from the book are on line somewhere And many others. The bios has a standard layour and defined functionality. > >Thanks for any tips, especially from anyone on the list who has ever >rolled their own CP/M machine. I've rolled more than a few. If you need info I can help. Allison >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-May-2008 at 19:40 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -105.4 F (-76.4 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 77 Barometer 691.6 mb (10194 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 4 17:37:12 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:37:12 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? Message-ID: <0K0D00LQ88477AO1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP/M SBC design? > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 16:22:33 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sunday 04 May 2008 15:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems >> were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" >> in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? >> How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? Did they temporarily >> ghost the ROM on top of RAM until some bit of code could read ROM >> and write RAM then bank out the ROM? Since I think I "need" at >> least 48K of RAM, I was planning on a pair of 62256s. I could easily >> do 56K of RAM low and 8K of ROM high, I think, unless there's some >> other arrangement that's obvious to try for a simple design. > >I have some amount of docs on that stuff scattered here and there, and am not >real clear at the moment just where it's all located. I do recall some >stuff, though. One that comes to mind had the ROM (or EPROM?) mapped in at >reset, and one of the coldstart initialization routines copied some small >portion of that up into high RAM. I know that the Osborne Executive had >3 "banks" one of which had the eprom and video RAM mapped into it. I think >that some of the TRS-80 machines needed a special version of CP/M because >they had ROM in low memory and no way to map it out. There were probably >other variations I'm not thinking of besides. There were also mod kits for the trs80 to relocate not only the rom but video and keyboard which were also in low ram. >> I've never tried writing a BIOS for a CP/M machine, but my understanding >> is that things are modular enough that once you know what I/O chips >> you have and at what I/O addresses, for a straightforward, non-clever >> design, the coding is equally straightforward and non-clever (but please >> feel free to enlighten me if otherwise). > >That's my understanding of it too, though the mechanics of actually putting >together a bootable CP/M system are something I'm still a bit fuzzy on. I >probably oughta do that with my BBII one of these days. I can walk you thorugh it. It really helps to have a PS with a SIM/emulator like MYz80 or for this and better is Dave Dunfields NS* horizon emulator. Reason for that is it makes a good development environment, sources you will need are in the IMD collection for it. For a PC running something like W98 (later works once you fight with the OS IO) you can have the simulated Horizon even serial download code from inside CP/M! The basic process is to gen (movecpm) up a image of CP/M for the correct memory size (usually the higest ram address - the size of the bios) and then take a snapshot of the CCP and BDOS. OR you can get the sources and run them through ASM for the correct memory size. the result is the same a BIN file of 5.5K that has a specific load address. Then you can copy a bios and alter it for your IO The console IO is by far easiest and the disk (or the disk equivilent) will be a bit more complex. Once you have a BIOS that can assemble you put the whole mess in a Eprom (orEEPROM) with a small snippet of code to copy it from ROM to ram at the correct address and jump to the "COLDBOOT" entry in the BIOS where the code will Kill rom, init low ram, log in the default disk and put up the intro screen and prompt. here are bits and peices I didn't explan but that the overall path. FYI: while older systems booted the system from disk there is no requirement nor need for that. If there is enough rom (8k will do) you can put the whole image in there plus the copy block code. >I have a fair pile of downloaded files pertaining to this and other >CP/M-related stuff, what used to be that portion of the files section on my >old BBS on hand here, I can send you a list of what's there off-list if you >like. Most are online with Gaby's http://www.cpm.z80.de/ The Unofficial CP/M site and likely the most complete archive out there. You can get most everything you need there and if not the Links are there to the best of the best. Allison >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Sun May 4 18:16:47 2008 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe-Jacques?=) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 13W3 -> 3 BNC Message-ID: You know what, I figured it out. I looked to see if there was anything printed on the cable, and guess what: "Solbourne Computer Inc". I believe that they manufactured some Sparc clones? In any event, it's definitely a 3 BNC cable and not a 4 BNC. - Alex Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com From rdbrown at pacific.net.au Sun May 4 19:11:14 2008 From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au (Rodney Brown) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 10:11:14 +1000 Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> References: <000d01c8977b$ae372400$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1207479444.6302.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000901c8980a$bf0ffc90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> Message-ID: <1209946274.6409.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-05-03 at 19:29 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > > Thanks for your work on this Steve, I need to find the one or two I > > spotted again, but yours was cleaner than mine. > > I tested the PCI NI-Analyser card again on the HP150 - which is the > > working HP-IB machine I have. Since I didn't know better I captured > > everything again - including timings. For someone writing an emulator, > > this could be helpful, but I don't know if you want another huge capture > > file of boring Amigo protocol stuff. I've attached what I did and > > captures of the analyser interface - I'd welcome your advice on what I > > should be capturing that would be useful for protocol understanding. > Hey Rodney, > > Hope you don't mind but, I'm gonna post this to the classiccmp list. > Someone there may want to follow the discussion. Not a problem, HP150 boots to Amigo 9133 NI Analyser captures available on request (7-zipped 16Mb capture file, 168Mb text output) > What kind of system are you running the PCI Analyzer on? Windows? Linux? I have an ISA NI GPIB+ card in a Win ME box that will go to Jon Johnston of hpmuseum.net, so his CE friends could capture traces from more interesting hardware. A PCI NI GPIB+ card that is in a W2k box, but may end up in my Linux box, as just a GPIB card. Unfortunately National Instruments don't release programming info for their analyser cards - when I last went looking they don't release the format of the capture files, though I have some of that decoded, though not all the named state transitions. > I have FINALLY made some more progress with the ISA GPIB card in my > Linux box. Unfortunately, it uses the NEC7210 chip which has been a pain > in the rear to program. I found a few snippets of code online but really > didn't find anything that directly addressed my needs. > I have been able to read and write small data packets to the HP7980 but > that's about all. With the tape drive, you have to worry about block > sizes, file and record markers, rewind, readahead... Blah... Blah... > Blah... As of now, I have not yet figured out how to handle all that > stuff. So, I decided to take a break from the tape drive and concentrate > on the HPIB CS80 disks. > I suspect the HP150 is using the "Cold Load" command to read the tape on > bootup. I have not been able to read a tape using that method on my PC > (yet). I'm not surprised, from a quick read of the HP85 emulator, it looked like that by default the Amigo disks work like a tape of fixed size blocks. > I was already familiar with the CS80 protocol so, I just had to learn to > program the 7210 chip. It took a while but, I can finally, with some > confidence, program the 7210 to do what I need. I was also able to write > some code to support a couple of HP instruments (multimeter / frequency > counter) over HPIB. I don't have hardware or this kind of programming experience. > Programming the CS80 disk was fairly easy and, at this point, I can read > or write a raw binary file to any partition (including boot) of the HPIB > disk from my PC (linux). That disk is then bootable from the HP1000 with > a CS80 ROM. > I have created a small "library" of sorts with the common CS80 methods > and another with the HPIB methods in another. I'm not a "C" programmer > so, anyone looking at the code would probably think it's sloppy. But, it > works (sorta) :-) I'd be interested to have a look. Ultimately I'm interested in collecting enough information to be able to emulate an HP3000, but emulating disk devices to keep machines running is important too. Asking Bering or Reactive AEM to open source their code to emulate HP-IB devices using SCSI disks could work. When we start the MPE/iX machine in the office, I'll try decompiling the HIO at .PUB.SYS and the SL.PUB.SYS from a Series 52 Sysdump I have. They should give some hints. > The question is: What exactly are your goals at this point? If you're > still trying to boot the HP150 off the HP7980, I can probably provide > some additional insight into the tape protocol although, I cannot > provide any specific info for programming the HP150. I'd like to get the 7980 to someone who can use it (~35kg, Melbourne, Au). I have a few tapes I'd like to image if the drive is behaving, if possible reading to my/a Linux box. The HP150 is the working HP-IB (MS-DOS) machine I have, supporting Amigo & SS-80 protocols I think. The techref manual for it probably describes HP-IB programming, probably using ioctl calls on an HPIB device analogous to the AGIOS calls for accessing the inherent HP2623 terminal emulator. Tony Duell has the only copy I know of. > One of the problems with programming the tape drive is that you cannot > slow down the data interchange to see exactly what it is doing. With the > disk there is no "timeout" for any of the transactions. You can slow > down (or halt) the bus and watch the interaction between the disk and > the computer without causing any errors. You cannot do this with the > tape drive. It'll throw an error :-( Furthermore, when the computer > boots there is a large chunk of data that is passed across the bus this > bloats your analyzer's capture and makes it much harder to pick out the > important bits. The 7970s probably wouldn't have cared, but a 7980 is a different beast. > You might try to capture only the transactions where the ATN is > asserted. This will filter out the "data" and only leave the commands to > wade through. > If you have a HPIB card with the 7210 or 9914 I can perhaps provide some > insight into register level programming with those chips. I have not > given up on the AMIGO tape protocol. I just have been focused on other > stuff :-) The 7980 is CS-80 as you know > There is a steep learning curve when tackling all these protocols at the > same time. My suggestion would be to break up the project into smaller > chunks. The first thing is to figure out how to do the register level > programming on the HPIB card. You will need to know how to send and > receive "commands" and "data", how to conduct a "parallel poll", and how > to change "states" on the card. Understood > The tape and disk protocols are not simple, I would also suggest using a > simple device (HPIB meter etc...) to refine you programming. Use the > analyzer card to watch the bus to see exactly what happens when a > certain chunk of code is executed. Once you get predictable results, > it'll be easier to tackle a more complex protocol. > Talk to me about the HP150. What HPIB chip does it use? Does your > version of DOS/UNIX have the tools that you need to do register level > programming? I have HPUX 10.20 on a HP9000/800 that has HPIB support > built in. Does the 150 have this kinda support? I don't know what HP-IB chip the HP150 uses - but it looks like Tony has answered. My HP-UX boxes are 700 series without HP-IB - I should look out for such an 800 series - though I remember those as being large. > See ya, > SteveRob Thanks again Steve From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 5 02:10:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:10:39 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <481E507F.24539.893799C@cclist.sydex.com> Hi Andrew, Just sitting here wondering why you're not using one of the enhanced- functioning Z80 chips. Even going with the 64180 or Z180 would give you 2 UARTS and an MMU, in addtion to 2 DMA channels and a timer. Later version of this product line, will of course, give you more instructions and functionality. But the MMU can make the whole process of bootup very easy. Simply use the MMU to map the ROM out after the system's been started (you've got a 1MB physical address space). Duck soup. But if you want to stick with the "real" Z80, I've seen two methods of getting around the reset to 0000. The first is to simply force three bytes onto the system bus to perform a jump to whatever address you desire after a reset. You'll only do this once per reset, so the circuitry's pretty simple. Another way to is to start out with an EPROM mapped in and then disable it using an I/O instruction. You can leave RAM mapped in for write cycles, so that only reads will come from the ROM and writes will go directly to RAM. That way, you can set up locations starting at 0000 from a ROM. In any case, the ROM needn't be very big. I think Don Tarbell used a little bipolar 82S123 PROM. Gives you 32 bytes to do what you need, which, in Don's case was enough to get the first sector of an 8" floppy read. CP/M BIOSes for 2.2 and below are easy--they're poll-mode with clearly described inputs and outputs. About the only thing you may find confusing is the IOBYTE convention, but that's optional and fairly well documented. I've written a CP/M BIOS without resorting to assembly, doing the whole thing in machine code. It's not a big thing and you can start with the basic set of disk and console I/O routines. There are two boot entry points in the BIOS jump vector--the "cold start" entered by a jump to 0000 that (re)loads the entire CP/M BDOS and CCP, and the "warm start" that simply reloads the CCP. Disk I/O is done in 128 byte "sectors", so if your physical sectors are longer than that, you'll need to set up blocking and deblocking routines. All of this is covered in the CP/M System Alteration guide in pretty fair detail, along with a couple of samples. CP/M 3.0 or MP/M is more involved, taking advantage of bankswitching. Interrupt-driven I/O is required for MP/M--and the I/O system is more elaborate. Cheers, Chuck From djg at pdp8.net Mon May 5 06:34:03 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 07:34:03 -0400 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! Message-ID: <200805051134.m45BY3R13061@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >> PS: anyone need a 4010 service manual online? I have one and just >> noticed it hasn't been scanned on the net anywhere. > >I think they are somewhere on pdp8.net > ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ Forgot about them. That was a quick scan for someone who needed it and was going to do some cleanup and put them somewhere better. Looks like that is way overdue. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Mon May 5 06:44:35 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:44:35 +0100 Subject: Recommended book; website regarding CPU architectures. Message-ID: <73D9C3E7-3AB1-4822-AE21-6CE4B08390D3@ozpass.co.uk> For my birthday I received a copy of "The Supercomputer Era" by Sidney Karin and Norris Parker Smith. It's a little hard to track down (my copy is ex. Coleman College Library, La Mesa, California - never checked out!) but provides an interesting, nostalgic look at the state of the supercomputer industry c. 1987. The framework for the book is the (then) shiny new San Diego Supercomputer Centre (SDSC). Much is made of the bleeding edge technology implemented at that site, including dual 50Mbit HYPERnet networking to link their Cray X-MP/48 and SCS-40 to the "Common File System" based around an IBM4381 with a whopping 35GB of online storage (20 GB IBM3380 and a 15GB STC8380 disk drives). With 21 years of hindsight whilst enjoying the book, it's quite sad to read some of the predictions. When written, the Cray 3 with its gallium arsenide seniconductors was tipped for great things, and the ETA-10 at the Von Neumann Centre was expected to conquer all. Knowing the eventual direction the supercomputing field took with massive parallel arrays (and clusters) of scalar processors, I really miss the exotic cool of the old-school vector beasts. Reminds me of the famous Seymour Cray quote: "I'd rather have two bulls pulling my plough than 1000 chickens". It's a great read, anyway, if you can get hold of a copy. As an aside (and to provide a little more meat to this rambling post), whilst reading the above and stopping every 5 minutes to follow something up on the interweb I came across a really interesting website detailing "Great Microprocessors of the Past and Present". Apologies if it's common knowledge or has been discussed at length before, but much of it was new and interesting to me. http://jbayko.sasktelwebsite.net/cpu.html -Austin. From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon May 5 06:49:10 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 07:49:10 -0400 Subject: C64 Cartridge disassembly (using MMC Replay w/RR-Net) In-Reply-To: <200805050710.m457ACpo061166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080505074023.031dbec0@smtp.degnanco.com> > >Strange question, but does anyone know how to get a C64 cartridge >case apart without breaking it? I have a bad "Epyx Fast Load" >cartridge, and need a case for my "MMC Replay" w/RR-Net. > >I still haven't really had time to do much with the MMC Replay, I >have managed to get a few things to run from it (the C1541 emulation >is pretty bad). I have managed to successfully get a DHCP lease for >the RR-Net, but haven't gotten it to talk to anything. I finally got >some of my floppies back out of storage (put them up on accident just >before I bought the MMC Replay, and I want to see about making and >writing out D64 images. Zane, If you heat the cart in the oven at a temperature less than that which will melt the case, but enough to melt the glue? I have had considerable adventures with this combo of hardware, here is a link that spells out the steps I took to interface my C128 (in c64 mode) using MMC Replay and RR-Net with the second Ethernet card in a PC formatted with WinXT. I can make a D64 image of a disk in less than 30 seconds. I prefer the c128 because after each image, I get better performance if I restart the C128 using the reset button (rather than have to power cycle the c64). I have a lot of the files you need on my web site, directions and links for the files you'll need are here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=85 -Bill From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon May 5 06:57:14 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 07:57:14 -0400 Subject: Atari score! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481EF61A.3030600@hawkmountain.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > I returned from a hamfest yesterday with a mountain of Atari 8bit gear: > > Atari 800 w/ dust-cover (slight yellowing) > (2) 810 diskette drives > (2) 1020 Printer/Plotters (1 new in wrapping) > 410 Cassette Deck > 835 Modem > 850 Interface Adapter Been too long since I used my Atari stuff.... My parents gave me an Atari 400 for Christmas years and years ago.... and it grew from there. My Atari systems consist of a 400, 1 or 2 800s, 130XE, 1 or 2 800XL. I've got a couple of 810s (my original with Archiver add on and one I obtained later with a Happy enhancement) a 1050 (with US Doubler that I added) > > All original Atari manuals for the above in great condition! > All power adapters for the above in working condition. > > 6 Serial cables > Box of assorted joysticks and input devices > > Huge box of photocopied development tool manuals > > Still to come as soon as owner unearths them from his basement: > > Several hundred diskettes > SWP ATR8000 CP/M extension system w/ all manuals and software I too have one of these. Mine has a 3rd party hard drive interface module (SASI I believe) that was used with a Xebec SASI?-MFM bridgeboard. I have all the stuff to make the HD work... except I don't think I have the low level formatter... I never did get anywhere with it sadly. > > Looks to be a lot of fun getting this stuff up and learning about it. > > I'm thinking of buying one of the SIO2PC interfaces and the APE > software package so I can transfer images from the internet to > workable Atari diskettes. Would appreciate any advice or opinions on > this. > I have an SIO2PC, but I have not used it as of yet. I have no experience with APE. One of these days I have to get one of my Ataris up and running again... I should at least backup my diskette collection at a minimum before they go 'bad'. > Also, if the owner cannot locate the diskettes, what is the best way > to go about bootstrapping things? Where can the various images be > found on the net and is APE the best way to do this? > If you had a 1050 that did double density there were programs that would work on an IBM PC with a 360K floppy drive to write Atari dbl density. There are programs out there with the right FDC that can read/write single (and probably the Atari enhanced) density formats (I'm blanking on the name, but someone on the list here should be able to chime in with it). My favorite tidbit from the Atari vs Commodore users years ago was when playing Mule on a friend's C64, I pointed out that that he should read the planet's name backwards (the planet's name was Irata).... he didn't like that :-) ! Enjoy, -- Curt > Steve > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 5 08:19:35 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 09:19:35 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? Message-ID: <481ED127020000370002A00D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Ethan asks: > I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems > were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" > in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? > How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? The most traditional CP/M system has a toggle-in front panel and 16K of RAM, Ethan :-). The much later CP/M systems that had boot ROM's either had them consuming a small amount of high memory permanently with some hardware hackery to jump there on a cold reset, or lived in low mem at reset and had a later stage of the boot process map them out. And I am perplexed by your BIOS question. I think you are using that acronym in a non-CP/M context. If you want to read the "CP/M 2.0 System Alteration Guide" and rephrase your question I think we could make some progress. Tim. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon May 5 08:26:12 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 09:26:12 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200805050926.13139.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 04 May 2008 23:54, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov > > > > I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems > > were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" > > in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? > > Hi > Most ROM based machines do some kind of shadow method to boot, > unless one has a front panel to select the boot address. > Other than that, there is no particular reason to shadow the high > memory ROM. > My CP/M system is completely RAM. The disk is DMA and has > a built in boot strap boot from disk. No ROM at all in my machine. > Dwight How does that bootstrap work, then, with no ROM? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 5 08:55:57 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 06:55:57 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <200805050926.13139.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <005901c8ac9b$f948b820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> <20080504195705.GA5328@usap.gov> <200805050926.13139.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net >> > On Sunday 04 May 2008 23:54, dwight elvey wrote: >>> From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov >>> >>> I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems >>> were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" >>> in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? >> >> Hi >> Most ROM based machines do some kind of shadow method to boot, >> unless one has a front panel to select the boot address. >> Other than that, there is no particular reason to shadow the high >> memory ROM. >> My CP/M system is completely RAM. The disk is DMA and has >> a built in boot strap boot from disk. No ROM at all in my machine. >> Dwight > > How does that bootstrap work, then, with no ROM? > Hi There is ROM in the DMA controller ( not part of system Memory ). It runs a state machine that causes the first sector of the disk to be loaded at address 0 on a reset signal. I have code on that first sector that loads the image of CP/M into high memory. To boot all I do is reset, wait for the disk to stop and then run. There is no system ROM used, just the state machine that is the disk DMA controller. If you curious about this controller see: http://retrotechnology.net/dri/torode_designs.html Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008 From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 5 09:17:09 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 10:17:09 -0400 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! Message-ID: <481EDEA5020000370002A04B@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Richard writes: > I don't know why I never realized this before, but the Tektronix 4010 > graphics terminal is implemented enitrely in SSI TTL logic and > contains no microprocessor. I guess that makes sense with it being > introduced in 1971, but it just suddenly hit me like a brick. My favorite parts of the 4010 are not even SSI TTL. There's a pot you turn up (I seem to recall a Unijunction oscillator) and down to change the baud rate for example :-). > PS: anyone need a 4010 service manual online? I have one and just > noticed it hasn't been scanned on the net anywhere. There was something pretty spastic related to Tektronix and archives of their scope documentation a couple years back, but what you need seems to be online at bitsavers.org right now. You might have to look under "401x" instead of "4010". Wow, 101 Mbytes for what I'm looking at right now! Tim. From brain at jbrain.com Mon May 5 09:29:20 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 09:29:20 -0500 Subject: C64 Cartridge disassembly (using MMC Replay w/RR-Net) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20080505074023.031dbec0@smtp.degnanco.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080505074023.031dbec0@smtp.degnanco.com> Message-ID: <481F19C0.2080908@jbrain.com> B. Degnan wrote: > >> >> Strange question, but does anyone know how to get a C64 cartridge >> case apart without breaking it? I have a bad "Epyx Fast Load" >> cartridge, and need a case for my "MMC Replay" w/RR-Net. > > > Zane, > If you heat the cart in the oven at a temperature less than that which > will melt the case, but enough to melt the glue? I have to check my FL for sure, but I seem the remember a screw under the sticker on the back. Feel around in the middle for an indentation. If I am correct, you need to remove said screw and the case will pop open. Jim From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 5 09:47:11 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: C64 Cartridge disassembly (using MMC Replay w/RR-Net) In-Reply-To: <481F19C0.2080908@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080505144711.23FA656FE0@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Brain > > B. Degnan wrote: > > > >> > >> Strange question, but does anyone know how to get a C64 cartridge > >> case apart without breaking it? I have a bad "Epyx Fast Load" > >> cartridge, and need a case for my "MMC Replay" w/RR-Net. > > > > > > Zane, > > If you heat the cart in the oven at a temperature less than that which > > will melt the case, but enough to melt the glue? > I have to check my FL for sure, but I seem the remember a screw under > the sticker on the back. Feel around in the middle for an indentation. > If I am correct, you need to remove said screw and the case will pop open. > I just checked a FL cart I have - there is an indentation on the front, under the label. Cheers, Bryan From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Mon May 5 10:01:13 2008 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:01:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cray2 Construction queries (utterly random) Message-ID: Hey guys; So I'm staring at various pictures of Cray2s and I'm trying to work out what the lower covers are made from. I'm referring to the covers that are coloured, apparently, depending on the install - usually red or blue, but images.google has one with a rather garish yellow/green combination. I'm guessing, for what you paid for a Cray2, you got to pick the colours to match your institute. At any rate, they LOOK like they're puffy, like a vinyl covered foam cushion of sorts, perhaps a nod to the Cray-1 power supply seat covers. Is this the case? Also, are the transparent covers on the inner and outer faces perspex/plexiglass or something different? (I can't imagine real glass, but perhaps polycarbonate? Lexan?) I suppose replies should probably be off-list, given the inanity of the question. Thanks all! - JP From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 5 10:46:20 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 08:46:20 -0700 Subject: C64 Cartridge disassembly (using MMC Replay w/RR-Net) In-Reply-To: <20080505144711.23FA656FE0@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080505144711.23FA656FE0@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: At 10:47 AM -0400 5/5/08, Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Brain > > I have to check my FL for sure, but I seem the remember a screw under >> the sticker on the back. Feel around in the middle for an indentation. >> If I am correct, you need to remove said screw and the case will pop open. >> > >I just checked a FL cart I have - there is an indentation on the >front, under the label. I just took a minute, I can feel it on my bad cart as well. I don't have time at the moment, but I'll look into disassembly later (hopefully I'll have time this week). I figured it made sense to mention which cart I was looking to sacrifice. :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 5 11:34:42 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:34:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! In-Reply-To: <200805051134.m45BY3R13061@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200805051134.m45BY3R13061@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2008 djg at pdp8.net wrote: > ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ > > Forgot about them. That was a quick scan for someone who needed it and was That was me ;-)) But the quality is good anyway. Christian From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 5 11:39:36 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 10:39:36 -0600 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 May 2008 07:34:03 -0400. <200805051134.m45BY3R13061@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: In article <200805051134.m45BY3R13061 at h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > >> PS: anyone need a 4010 service manual online? I have one and just > >> noticed it hasn't been scanned on the net anywhere. > > > >I think they are somewhere on pdp8.net > > > ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ I can't seem to access this from my work machine, but from my ISP's shell account I can get in there OK. > Forgot about them. That was a quick scan for someone who needed it and was > going to do some cleanup and put them somewhere better. Looks like that > is way overdue. I can probably coalesce them into a single PDF. How good are the scans? I am not sure if my scanner will get some of the larger diagrams all in one image. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 5 11:42:28 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 10:42:28 -0600 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 May 2008 10:17:09 -0400. <481EDEA5020000370002A04B@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: In article <481EDEA5020000370002A04B at gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com>, "Tim Shoppa" writes: > but what you need seems to be online at bitsavers.org right > now. You might have to look under "401x" instead of "4010". > Wow, 101 Mbytes for what I'm looking at right now! Nope, that's the 4014/4015. The 4014 is a different terminal, and although the circuitry is similar, I haven't done an exhaustive compare to see how identical it is. Its clearly a design evolved from the 4010, but I don't know how different it is in terms of circuitry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon May 5 12:19:05 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 13:19:05 -0400 Subject: Whistle Interjet 200(s) available... Message-ID: <481F4189.90208@hawkmountain.net> These were popular in the day to connect small offices to the net... it combined a mini file server, served as the wan link, mail, etc... These particular 2 units have the sync card and cable for an external CSU/DSU. If there is any interest, fire over an offer... I won't be doing anything with them and they are taking up space... I have one new unit and one demo unit both in their original box with docs and csu/dsu cable. -- Curt From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 5 14:42:58 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209937799.3232.11.camel@bart> References: <000d01c8977b$ae372400$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1207479444.6302.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <000901c8980a$bf0ffc90$0201a8c0@disa4g72s8xldv> <1209814199.6524.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209857372.2659.64.camel@bart> <49529.71.139.37.220.1209928628.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <1209937799.3232.11.camel@bart> Message-ID: <38715.64.62.206.10.1210016578.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Eric - Somewhere I had a link to your 9144 project but can't find it. > Please send the link again. http://svn.brouhaha.com/viewvc/read9144/trunk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 5 12:58:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:58:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <004101c8ae2d$b8e3b030$0501a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 4, 8 11:26:42 pm Message-ID: > Checked today, and the floppymotor keeps on running... And you have V1.0 ROMs, yes? I think we can assume there's not a hardware fualt on all 3 machines (my 2 and yours), and that the floppy was designed to keep running. I wonder why? The MotorOn line is certainly software-controlled, it's not simply tied low or anything. > Pictures are made and on it's way to you. Thanks, I've seen them. The ROM module is very different to my V5.0 one. 2 ohter errors I've spotted in 'my' Integral schematics :-(. 1) Input 0 of the Interrupt priority encoder should be tied to ground, not +5V. In fact this would make no differece to the operation of the machine (the only ontput to change state isn't used!). 2) The commonned pins on the floppy drive connector on the logic B PCB are not suprisingig also grounded. I must have just missed off the ground symol :-) Anyother thing that might be of interest is that there's a 10Hz 'heartbeat' on the IR1 interrupt line, it comes from the real time clock chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 5 13:43:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:43:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HPIB Stuff - some capture stuff In-Reply-To: <1209939311.3232.34.camel@bart> from "Steve Robertson" at May 4, 8 06:15:11 pm Message-ID: > I'm sure Rodney Brown would like to have the register/address mappings > for the HP150. Sure. The HP150 only decodes the bottom 8 address lines when doing an I/O cycle, but the manual suggests setting the upper byte to 0 for compatibility with future products. Expansion cards may, of course, decode all 16 I/O address lines. The I/O map is as follows : 0000-0003 : MPSC Datacomm controller (7201) 0004-000B : HPIB controller (9914) 000C-000F : Baud rate generator (8116T) 0010-0013 : Interrupt controller (8259) 0014-0015 : Datacomm 1 port control, clock select 0016-0017 : Datacomm 2 port control, manfuacturing test repeat 0018-001B : Keyoard/touchscreen controller (8041A) 001C-002F : Reserved, DO NOT USE 0030-003F : Internal printer interface 0040-005F : Real time clock (MM58167A) 0060-007F : I/O image DO NOT USE 0080-00FF : Resereved for accessory slots Now, to expand each of thase : MPSC (7201/8274) 0000 : Channel A data register (R/W) 0001 : Channel A control register (R/W) 0002 ; Channel B data register (R/W) 0003 : Channel B control register (R/W) HPIB (9914) 0004 : Interrupt status 1/Interrupt Mask 1 (R/W) 0005 : Serial poll (R) 0006 : Bus Status/Auxilliary command (R/W) 0007 : Data In/Data Out (R/W) 0008 : Interrupt Status 0/Interrupt Mask 0 (R/W) 0009 : Address switch/address reg (R/W) 000A : Address status register (R) 000B : Command pass-through/parallel poll (R/W) Baud rate generator (8116T) 000C : Baud rate select (W). High nybble -> port 2, low nybble -) port 1 Nybble : Baud 0 50 1 75 2 110 3 134.5 4 150 5 300 6 600 7 1200 8 1800 9 2000 A 2400 B 3600 C 4800 D 7200 E 9600 F 19200 Interrupt cnotroller (8259A) 0010, 0011 : Interrupt controller registers (R/W) Datacom 1 control/clock select 0014 : Read Bit 7 0 6 0 5 0 4 1 3 DM 2 0 1 OCR2 0 OCR1 0014 : Write 7,6 Clock select 1 OCD2 0 OCD1 Datacom 2 contorlmanufacturing test repeat 0016 : Read 4 POD (1 if datacom 1 daughterboard in place) 3 DM 2 MTST (1 if U62 pin 14 grounded -> repeat failing manufacturing test) 1 OCR2 0 OCR1 0016 : Write 1 OCD2 0 OCD1 Keyboard/touchscreen cotnroller (8041A) 0018 : Data register (R/W) 0019 : Status/cmmmand register (R/W) Internal printer 0030 : write -> Character to print 0030 : read 2 Not PaperOut 1 Online 0 Ack Reak tune clock (58167A) 0040 : Millisecond counter (R/W) 0041 : Tenth/hundreth second counter (R/W) 0042 : Seconds (R/W) 0043 : Minutes (R/W) 0044 : Hours (R/W) 0045 : Day (R/W) 0046 : Date (R/W) 0047 : Month (R/W) 0048 : Milisecond RAM (R/W) 0049 : Tenth/hundreth second RAM (R/W) 004A : Seconds RAM (R/W) 004B : Minutes RAM (R/W) 004C : Hour RAM (R/W) 004D : Day RAM (R/W) 004E : Date RAM (R/W) 004F : Month RAM (R/W) 0050 : Interrupt status (R) 0051 : Interrupt control (W) 0052 : Counter reset (W) 0053 : RAM reset (W) 0054 : Status bit (R) 0055 : Go command register (W) 0056-005F : Reserved. Incidentally, the HP150-II (12" CRT model) is much the same except that there's no internal printer interface. The keyboard/touchscreen controller is replaced by an 8042 talking to the HP-HIL chip. That should get you started :-) [...] > I have several later HP9000's and checked the chips in them. They have a > 48 pin chip and are marked 1TL1-0008. A quick google search confirms > that's the "medusa" chip. Yes. I think it also campe in a PLCC package, and was used in some later disk units. The HP9000/200 machines (the only ones I know much about) had a built-in HPIB port using a 9914 chip. There was an expansion card (98624 IIRC) that added another HPIB interface, also using a 9914, and a 'high speed disk interface' using the 1TL1 Medusa. I certainly have the former card in my collection (to go on the bench soon), I may well have the latter. Anohter chip you might come acress in HP HPIB devices is the 1LH4-0001. This is _NOT_ an HPIB controller, it's just the bus buffer. The pinout (from the 82169 service manual) is : ------------ Gnd --| U |-- Vcc D0 --| |-- Q0 ] D1 --| |-- Q4 ] D2 --| |-- Q1 ] D3 --| |-- Q5 ] D4 --| |-- Q2 ] D5 --| |-- Q6 ] D6 --| |-- Q3 ] D7 --| |-- Q7 ] HPIB connector signals CA/ --| |-- EOI ] TA --| |-- REN ] SRQ --| |-- DAV ] ATN --| |-- NRFD ] EOI --| |-- NDAC ] DAV --| |-- IFC ] NDAC --| |-- SRQ ] NRFD --| |-- ATN ] IFC --| |-- PPL/ REN --| |-- UPE/ Gnd --| |-- SC ------------ It appears that SC = System controller CA/ = Contoller active TA = Talker active -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 5 14:55:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:55:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: As I think most of you know, I have a fairly diverse collection of classic computers (I suspect some others do too). Quite often I need to transfer data between 2 machines. Maybe to download a file from this PC, which I've in turn downloaded from a web site, to run on one of the classics. Maybe to print out some listing from a classic. Whatever. My machines vary in size from the pocket computers up to machines that it's not practical to move. They're scattered throughout a house. They are, alas, not in a machine room. Most of the machines (and all the ones I want to consider for this) have an RS232 port, either built-in or as an option (which I have). Most of the machines run kermit. Or I can simply print to the RS232 port on one machine and capture the incoming characters on the other So, I think the problem reduces to 'how to interconnect RS232 ports'. let me add some constraints : Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). Prefereably no cables at all. One solution I've come up with is to use a couple of line drivers and a long cable between them. A long cable that my parents, or the cat, will get tangled up in :-( No line-of-sight between the machines Must work at 300 and 1200 baud. 110 and 9600 baud would be a bonus I only need one pair of machines linked at a time. I don't need a network. So if the solution involves a radio link, the fact that there's only one channel available would not be a problem. Must not make use of any flow control lines on the RS232 port, since some of my machines don't support them. Using classic, or at least repairable, hardwre is a bonus :-) I said 'RS232'. I mean asynchronous serial, of course :-). If somebody has a solution for TTL or 3.3V level serial ports, I can trivially convert the signal levels I've been looking at some of the license-exempt radio modules, but they either are half-duplex or amke use of the flow control lines (typically they buffer bytes internally, then de-assert a flow control line while they pack up that data and send it to the other end). So far the best I've come up with is to link one machine to a palmtop (HP95LX), then transfer the data to that, carry the palmtop to the other machine and transdfer the data on. It's not ideal, but it does work. Any other ideas? -tony From ball.of.john at gmail.com Mon May 5 15:03:47 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 13:03:47 -0700 Subject: Unable to read unused QIC-40 tapes Message-ID: <481F6823.2050509@gmail.com> A few days ago I finally managed to find and fit a perfect replacement for the pinch roller in my apple 40Mb tape drive. The old roller, like most these days had become a sticky mess and fitting the new one took a half hour with a dremel and a bit of magic with a freezer so that the replacement slipped on and would never come off once it warmed up. Well after watching the thing properly retension a spare QIC-80 tape I had (I have loads of QIC-80 tapes but only a few QIC-40 tapes) I then grabbed an unopened copy of A/UX 1.1 I had been wanting to backup and popped it into the drive and carefully watched it do it's initial retension (like it does whenever a tape is inserted). After a few moments I started to see the tape was not properly spooling back up (it was starting to move up and down on the spool) and I pulled the tape before it ate itself (or at least mashed up the sides of the tape). I fed it another QIC-40 tape and it did it again so I tried the QIC-80 tape again and it didn't happen. The only difference between my QIC-40 tapes and that QIC-80 tape is that the QIC-40 tapes have never been used. Could it be that the drive belts in the tapes are not enjoying me trying to use them after at least 20 years of no use? I won't even risk backing the tape up until I can properly get it to run through the retension cycle properly. More info on the Apple Tape Backup 40SC can be found here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=704&coll=ap John. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 5 15:18:57 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:18:57 -0400 Subject: pdp-8/l supply Message-ID: <6319.1210018737@mini> Hi all, I recently obtained an old PDP-8/L in reasonable shape (why does this sound like an AA meeting? :-) Anyway, it doesn't work. So I'm happy debugging. The supplies on the back plane are not right so I decided to pull the main supply. I finally broken down and ordered an ESR meter. Is it smart to check all the caps? I've never used an ESR meter but it seems like a good idea to try it on all the big caps just to see what sort of shape they are in. I assume I need to open the little caps which are in parallel to get a good reading (my experience, limited, is that the little axial electrolytics tend to open/short much more often than the big cans). One of the unregulated supplies (-6) coming off the main transformer was a volt low when loaded and I thought I'd check the caps and the diodes. Unloaded it shows -33v (but looking at the schematic, that may be actually correct. Loaded the +5 was low (like 4.5), unloaded it's perfect (5.01). The lights do light, and run sets the run light, stop stops but load address does not. Worse, it seems to toggle the MA, which is ringing a bell about a common fault. I figured I'd get the supplies all cleaned up first... -brad From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 5 15:21:37 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:21:37 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 May 2008 20:55:51 +0100. Message-ID: To be honest, I would just get a cheap x86 laptop with a USB port and use a USB<->RS232 dongle. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 5 15:19:45 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:19:45 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481F6BE1.9050009@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > So far the best I've come up with is to link one machine to a palmtop > (HP95LX), then transfer the data to that, carry the palmtop to the other > machine and transdfer the data on. It's not ideal, but it does work. > > Any other ideas? Hmm, I've got a deep mistrust of any 'data over the mains' technology, but might that be an option here? I assume *most* of your systems are physically plugged into the mains anyway, so it'd meet the ideal requirement for no extra cabling. Data rates presumably not lightning fast, of course... Sneakernetting data around isn't such a problem in a classic context, though - most old machines need you to be physically present in order to do anything (interesting) with them, so carrying the data back and forth isn't any great hardship. Some sort of RS232 star-based topology could be fun, though :) cheers Jules From drb at msu.edu Mon May 5 15:34:54 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:34:54 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 05 May 2008 20:55:51 BST.) References: Message-ID: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > So, I think the problem reduces to 'how to interconnect RS232 > ports'. let me add some constraints : > > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the > answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). > Prefereably no cables at all. One solution I've come up with is to use a > couple of line drivers and a long cable between them. A long cable that > my parents, or the cat, will get tangled up in :-( It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial extenders. Disclaimer: I don't know what the regulatory issues might be with those devices in the UK. While this doesn't meeet your usual criteria for being able to repair the device, it might be viable for you on the theory that the devices are relatively inexpensive and could be treated as an interim solution -- somewhat disposable, replaceable with a long cable if necessary, etc. Presumably there'll be some new toy with the same function in a couple of years. In the long cable division, there are a number of products around that extend rs232 by using baluns at each end, and cat-5 cable for the bulk of the run. Still commits bondage on the cat :), but works around the rs232 distance limitations. These I suspect you could reverse engineer and build yourself. I've also seen serial-to-ethernet devices. These plus a pair of wifi access points...but we're getting expensive now. De From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Mon May 5 15:44:38 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:44:38 +0200 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers References: <481F6BE1.9050009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c8aef0$d9287330$0501a8c0@xp1800> Packet radio ? Or 400Mhz transmitting modules those are very small and able to transmit digital signals. There is one setback you can't use full-duplex. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:19 PM Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers > Tony Duell wrote: >> So far the best I've come up with is to link one machine to a palmtop >> (HP95LX), then transfer the data to that, carry the palmtop to the other >> machine and transdfer the data on. It's not ideal, but it does work. >> >> Any other ideas? > > Hmm, I've got a deep mistrust of any 'data over the mains' technology, but > might that be an option here? I assume *most* of your systems are > physically plugged into the mains anyway, so it'd meet the ideal > requirement for no extra cabling. Data rates presumably not lightning > fast, of course... > > Sneakernetting data around isn't such a problem in a classic context, > though - most old machines need you to be physically present in order to > do anything (interesting) with them, so carrying the data back and forth > isn't any great hardship. > > Some sort of RS232 star-based topology could be fun, though :) > > cheers > > Jules > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 5 15:46:26 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp-8/l supply In-Reply-To: <6319.1210018737@mini> References: <6319.1210018737@mini> Message-ID: <42759.64.62.206.10.1210020386.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Brad wrote: > I finally broken down and ordered an ESR meter. Is it smart to check > all the caps? You don't really need an ESR meter for that. A lab power supply (i.e., adjustable current limit) will work fine. For a DC power supply, the main things you look for are: 1) Is the capacitor excessively leaky at the operating voltage? It shouldn't pass much DC. Set the PS voltage to the operating voltage of the capacitor, and set the current limit low (say tens of mA). Connect the capacitor and see what the voltage does. If the capacitor is good, the PS will start in current limiting, and the voltage will go up linearly as the capacitor charges. Eventually the voltage will hit the supply setting, and the capacitor should draw almost no current at this point. If the voltage gets stuck at some point, that means the capacitor is leaky. It may just need reforming; if so, leaving it on the PS for a while may do the trick. 2) Is the capacitance within spec? Measure how long it takes to charge. If you're using constant voltage, the rate of charge exhibits exponential decay. If you use constant current, it is linear. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 5 15:49:21 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dennis wrote: > It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial > extenders. I'm not sure about Zigbee, but the useful range of Bluetooth is very short. There are claims of over 30 meters, but as far as I can tell that must be under laboratory conditions, e.g. in a faraday cage. In the real world, more than about 3 meters line of sight works poorly, as does non-line-of-sight at any distance. Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Mon May 5 15:53:51 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:53:51 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805051653.51620.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 05 May 2008 15:55, Tony Duell wrote: > As I think most of you know, I have a fairly diverse collection of > classic computers (I suspect some others do too). > > Quite often I need to transfer data between 2 machines. Maybe to > download a file from this PC, which I've in turn downloaded from a web > site, to run on one of the classics. Maybe to print out some listing from > a classic. Whatever. > > My machines vary in size from the pocket computers up to machines that > it's not practical to move. They're scattered throughout a house. They > are, alas, not in a machine room. Most of the machines (and all the ones > I want to consider for this) have an RS232 port, either built-in or as an > option (which I have). Most of the machines run kermit. Or I can simply > print to the RS232 port on one machine and capture the incoming > characters on the other > > So, I think the problem reduces to 'how to interconnect RS232 ports'. let > me add some constraints : > > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the > answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). What does the spec say about length with regard to that? I was of the impression that you could get by with lower baud rates if you were using longer cables. > Prefereably no cables at all. One solution I've come up with is to use a > couple of line drivers and a long cable between them. A long cable that > my parents, or the cat, will get tangled up in :-( Even as a temporary measure? I've got a couple of long wires running around here... > No line-of-sight between the machines > > Must work at 300 and 1200 baud. 110 and 9600 baud would be a bonus At those (relatively) slow rates you should be able to do something fairly easily, I'd think. (Snip) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Mon May 5 15:58:18 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:58:18 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals References: Message-ID: <002d01c8aef2$bf23eb20$0501a8c0@xp1800> Yes V1.0.0 I think the same it's just designed to keep the motors running. Maybe to get the media running before the heads touch it, to prevent start/stop spots ? Well the ability to make errors is what makes us human ;-) The hartbeat should it be some kind of watchdog signal or a sync for realtime processing ? Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:58 PM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals >> Checked today, and the floppymotor keeps on running... > > And you have V1.0 ROMs, yes? > > I think we can assume there's not a hardware fualt on all 3 machines (my > 2 and yours), and that the floppy was designed to keep running. I wonder > why? The MotorOn line is certainly software-controlled, it's not simply > tied low or anything. > >> Pictures are made and on it's way to you. > > Thanks, I've seen them. The ROM module is very different to my V5.0 one. > > 2 ohter errors I've spotted in 'my' Integral schematics :-(. > > 1) Input 0 of the Interrupt priority encoder should be tied to ground, > not +5V. In fact this would make no differece to the operation of the > machine (the only ontput to change state isn't used!). > > 2) The commonned pins on the floppy drive connector on the logic B PCB > are not suprisingig also grounded. I must have just missed off the ground > symol :-) > > Anyother thing that might be of interest is that there's a 10Hz > 'heartbeat' on the IR1 interrupt line, it comes from the real time clock > chip. > > -tony > > > From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Mon May 5 16:07:20 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:07:20 +0200 Subject: Unable to read unused QIC-40 tapes References: <481F6823.2050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201c8aef4$0547bd60$0501a8c0@xp1800> What brand of tapes you are using ? Did you check the end of tape sensors, mostly a IR-led with photo transistor. It looks a little like the problems with old HP-tapes for the HP-85 and 98x5 systems. Those tapes become sticky due to hydration from air humidity. Some time placing the tapes in a hot-air oven (65C) for severaL hours does the trick after cooling down ofcause. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ball" To: "cctalk" Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:03 PM Subject: Unable to read unused QIC-40 tapes >A few days ago I finally managed to find and fit a perfect replacement > for the pinch roller in my apple 40Mb tape drive. The old roller, like > most these days had become a sticky mess and fitting the new one took a > half hour with a dremel and a bit of magic with a freezer so that the > replacement slipped on and would never come off once it warmed up. > Well after watching the thing properly retension a spare QIC-80 tape I > had (I have loads of QIC-80 tapes but only a few QIC-40 tapes) I then > grabbed an unopened copy of A/UX 1.1 I had been wanting to backup and > popped it into the drive and carefully watched it do it's initial > retension (like it does whenever a tape is inserted). After a few > moments I started to see the tape was not properly spooling back up (it > was starting to move up and down on the spool) and I pulled the tape > before it ate itself (or at least mashed up the sides of the tape). > I fed it another QIC-40 tape and it did it again so I tried the QIC-80 > tape again and it didn't happen. > The only difference between my QIC-40 tapes and that QIC-80 tape is that > the QIC-40 tapes have never been used. Could it be that the drive belts > in the tapes are not enjoying me trying to use them after at least 20 > years of no use? > I won't even risk backing the tape up until I can properly get it to run > through the retension cycle properly. > More info on the Apple Tape Backup 40SC can be found here: > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=704&coll=ap > > John. > > From drb at msu.edu Mon May 5 16:08:14 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:08:14 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 05 May 2008 13:49:21 PDT.) <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial > > extenders. > I'm not sure about Zigbee, but the useful range of Bluetooth is very > short. There are claims of over 30 meters, but as far as I can tell > that must be under laboratory conditions, e.g. in a faraday cage. > In the real world, more than about 3 meters line of sight works poorly, > as does non-line-of-sight at any distance. Well, 30 meters is probably with the full gale laboratory tailwind, but I accidentally left the phone behind and went down the hall 15+ meters in this pile of a building where I work (brick and plaster walls, often seems made mostly of Faradayium) and my bt headset didn't lose connection. So it does have some range sometimes. Success would definitely depend on the devices in question and the construction of the building. I don't know if Zigbee has better range or not. De From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon May 5 16:18:41 2008 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:18:41 +0100 Subject: DECserver 90TL... In-Reply-To: <481DC526.7010507@vaxcluster.de> References: <481DC526.7010507@vaxcluster.de> Message-ID: <26c11a640805051418q235f5f34vaa1acf781b3a1eb5@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/4 Michael Schneider : > Hello, > > i found two DECserver 90TL last week at the local flea market. They seem to > be in good shape, but i can't find the boot software for them - the file > MNENG1.SYS should be all i need... > > The Digital Networks web site is no more, and after one week of googling > and researching i give up: Does anybody where i can find this file? > > Greetings > ms > > > -- > Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de > Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > "Man hat Gedanken, die bleiben ewig d?mlich..." (Campino) > The file is on a saveset called ds9a011 . It is included in the SPL for the various machines. I don't have a working vms machine here at the moment. I have the cd but no way of getting the file off. If you can't get it from anywhere else. Let me know and i'll copy the cd for you. It has the bootfiles for all the Dec servers on it. Anyone with a fairly old SPL should have it. Dan From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 5 16:21:49 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:21:49 +0000 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <481E507F.24539.893799C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <481E507F.24539.893799C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080505212149.GB32325@usap.gov> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 12:10:39AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Just sitting here wondering why you're not using one of the enhanced- > functioning Z80 chips. Even going with the 64180 or Z180 would give > you 2 UARTS and an MMU, in addtion to 2 DMA channels and a timer. I can't speak for Andrew, but for me, I already have this SBC with CPU, some RAM, enough ROM, and a peripheral bus with 5 or 6 PIO chips, all in a package a little smaller than an Apple II PSU. > In any case, the ROM needn't be very big. I think Don Tarbell used a > little bipolar 82S123 PROM. Gives you 32 bytes to do what you need, > which, in Don's case was enough to get the first sector of an 8" > floppy read. I can see how that's easy to do if the disk controller does all the work (the RK05 bootstrap for the PDP-8 is a word or two). Since I was planning on using something like a CF card, I doubt I could get away with 32 bytes, but certainly a few K is overkill. > CP/M BIOSes for 2.2 and below are easy--they're poll-mode with > clearly described inputs and outputs. About the only thing you may > find confusing is the IOBYTE convention, but that's optional and > fairly well documented. Optional in the sense that it can wait to implement until after the rest of the code is done enough to get things to boot? > I've written a CP/M BIOS without resorting to assembly, doing the > whole thing in machine code. It's not a big thing and you can start > with the basic set of disk and console I/O routines. There are two > boot entry points in the BIOS jump vector--the "cold start" entered > by a jump to 0000 that (re)loads the entire CP/M BDOS and CCP, and > the "warm start" that simply reloads the CCP. OK. I was figuring that I'd be done once I got the basic set of disk and console I/O routines done, but that's probably because I'm not all that well versed with CP/M internals to know how extensive it would be to do "everything". > Disk I/O is done in 128 byte "sectors", so if your physical sectors > are longer than that, you'll need to set up blocking and deblocking > routines. I was wondering about that, since I recall a statement back in the day that the "standard" 5.25" scheme was '8" single-density'. > All of this is covered in the CP/M System Alteration guide in pretty > fair detail, along with a couple of samples. That sounds like a good guide to hunt down. > CP/M 3.0 or MP/M is more involved, taking advantage of bankswitching. > Interrupt-driven I/O is required for MP/M--and the I/O system is > more elaborate. I have no aspirations to MP/M, especially on such simple hardware. CP/M 3.0 is a possibility, but I guess I don't even know enough to know why I'd want 3.0 over 2.2. In terms of what I might want to "do" with this project once I get it booting, I guess I'd probably want to be able to run an assortment of programs that were common back in the day. When I used to use Kaypros, we mostly edited text files, ran the occasional dBase session (address labels and such, IIRC), and I played Scott Adams adventures on them (since only the first two were available for the PET at the time). I don't have any dBase databases that I need to read, so I'm not even concerned if that runs or not. I'd _really_ like to be able to fire up a Z-Machine on this, but a good chuck of that effort would be in how to implement the demand-paging scheme from a game file (vs the common technique of the day of reading in random sectors from a floppy that only held the game). That goal, I think, should be its own project, one I should probably try in an emulated environment first (such as the altair emulator in simh). Thanks for the comments, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.0 F (-56.1 C) Windchill -94.3 F (-70.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.3 kts Grid 55 Barometer 697.5 mb (9975 ft ) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Tim at Rikers.org Mon May 5 16:25:26 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:25:26 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805051653.51620.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805051653.51620.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <481F7B46.3080609@Rikers.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 05 May 2008 15:55, Tony Duell wrote: >> Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the >> answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). > > What does the spec say about length with regard to that? I was of the > impression that you could get by with lower baud rates if you were using > longer cables. I used to run a ppp link to a neighbors apartment at 115200. It was about a 100 foot long shielded serial cable. Half duplex transfers ran great, running heavy transfers in both directions would get errors, which ppp would nicely recover from. My big motivation at the time (1989 or so) was access to his laser printer. I used to dump 150dpi full page images over that link. It was slow, but reliable. I have no idea what "the spec allows" but a shielded cable can get you a long ways. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! ????????u poo? ??n??u??s ?no? u? 8-??n s? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 5 16:20:29 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:20:29 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805051653.51620.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805051653.51620.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <481F7A1D.9040101@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the >> answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). > > What does the spec say about length with regard to that? I was of the > impression that you could get by with lower baud rates if you were using > longer cables. This page makes interesting claims: http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/info/RS-232_specs.html a whopping 500ft @ 9600baud (presumably using Cat5 cable or something of similar quality) From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 5 16:32:12 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:32:12 +0000 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <481ED127020000370002A00D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <481ED127020000370002A00D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20080505213212.GC32325@usap.gov> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 09:19:35AM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Ethan asks: > > I am a little unclear, though, about how traditional CP/M systems > > were set up for ROM and RAM. Was it common to use a "shadow ROM" > > in low mem at reset, then have the BIOS live at the top of memory? > > How did 64K RAM CP/M machines handle the BIOS? > > The most traditional CP/M system has a toggle-in front panel and > 16K of RAM, Ethan :-). Ah, yes... I was a bit imprecise in what I was asking about... I was a bit young for the earliest days of CP/M, so in my mind, "traditional" was the era of packaged systems like Osbournes and Kaypros. My mistake. I even have a XOR 5-slot S-100 box at home, a gift from an older gentleman who happened to mention something to a relative of mine who works at the Post Office, but that's a long story - the short of it is that I have enough hardware to get it working, but no 8" CP/M disks, let alone the right one for that machine. > The much later CP/M systems that had boot ROM's either had them > consuming a small amount of high memory permanently with some > hardware hackery to jump there on a cold reset, or lived in > low mem at reset and had a later stage of the boot process map > them out. That's the style I'm thinking of. > And I am perplexed by your BIOS question. I think you are using > that acronym in a non-CP/M context. If you want to read the > "CP/M 2.0 System Alteration Guide" and rephrase your question I > think we could make some progress. I'll go hunting for that guide (it sounds exactly like what I was looking for) when the 'net comes up. I was originally thinking that even after boot-time, there were still active routines in ROM that the OS was pointed at, but I'm sure that perception was colored by how a standard '80s micro' does things. If, as I now suspect is the case, there's zero need for ROM code after the initial read from the block storage device happens, then it seems easy to implement a 64KB RAM system after all. >From some recent reading of various materials I've been finding as I do my research, it does seem that a lot of post-S-100 systems had 56K or 62K of RAM and 2K or 4K of ROM, still. Since I don't know specifics, let me ask a general question in the hopes that someone can figure out what machines and answer accordingly... for those 2K/4K ROM systems, did any portion of those ROMs get accessed once CP/M was up, or were they vestigal at that point? I can imagine some sort of monitor program or such being mapped in for when the OS got lost in the weeds, but what was that ROM space still good for? Thanks for helping untangle a conceptual and linguistic lack of understanding. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 21:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.0 F (-57.2 C) Windchill -99.1 F (-72.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.3 kts Grid 66 Barometer 697.3 mb (9982 ft ) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 5 16:49:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:49:10 +0000 Subject: pdp-8/l supply In-Reply-To: <6319.1210018737@mini> References: <6319.1210018737@mini> Message-ID: <20080505214910.GD32325@usap.gov> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 04:18:57PM -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > > Hi all, > > I recently obtained an old PDP-8/L in reasonable shape... Nice. That was my first model of -8. I still marvel at what they packed into that package (and how far you can expand it with an extra box or two). > Anyway, it doesn't work. So I'm happy debugging. The supplies on the > back plane are not right so I decided to pull the main supply. . . . > One of the unregulated supplies (-6) coming off the main transformer was > a volt low when loaded and I thought I'd check the caps and the diodes. > Unloaded it shows -33v (but looking at the schematic, that may be > actually correct. Loaded the +5 was low (like 4.5), unloaded it's > perfect (5.01). You might characterize at what load it droops. I had an arcade game that arrived dead because the regulator transistor was faulty - the supply did put out +5.0 V with no load, but more than a few mA of load and the supply just wouldn't put out anything close to +5V. OTOH, you mention 4.5V, which is at the bottom end of the spectrum for TTL. Obviously closer to +5.0 is good, but what you are reporting below might or might not be power related. > The lights do light, and run sets the run light, stop stops but load > address does not. Worse, it seems to toggle the MA, which is ringing a > bell about a common fault. I figured I'd get the supplies all cleaned > up first... Obviously it's good to be confident about your power, but if you get that issue addressed and still see odd symptoms, I'd grab the printset from bitsavers and keep a careful eye to any 7474 and 7440 chips that are in a path that could affect the behavior of whatever front-panel activity you are trying. In my experience with repairing several -8/Ls and an -8/i, those two chip types fail at a remarkably higher rate than all the other ICs combined. For testing simple boards (M111, M113, M117, M216), I have rigged up a squeeze-on 16-pin DIP clip to a hand-held IC tester. There's enough power from the tester battery to power 3-4 TTL ICs, and none of the signals on the simple boards interact on the board. It only takes a few seconds to check all the 7474s on an M216 that way. It may not find subtle chip problems, but in practice, I've frequently found a chip or two that's wonky. Unfortunately, this trick won't work on the M220 CPU register modules, nor I/O like the M706/M707 console interface boards, but as easy as it is to check 80% of the boards in the machine and eliminate them from your scoping, I think it's quite a valuable technique. The other issue that comes up is backplane oxidation. What has done wonders for me in the past is to take manila folders, cut them into strips the width of the card fingers, fold into a 2-thickness layer, then wet down with 1,2-propanol (isopropyl) and insert/remove a few times. You will probably see dark grey streaks on the paper the first couple of times you do it. Power is a great place to start, though. I can't really give much advice there; I've never had to delve into the PSU of an -8/L. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 21:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.1 F (-57.3 C) Windchill -97.9 F (-72.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.7 kts Grid 62 Barometer 697.4 mb (9979 ft ) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 5 16:52:20 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:52:20 -0500 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? In-Reply-To: <20080505213212.GC32325@usap.gov> References: <481ED127020000370002A00D@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <20080505213212.GC32325@usap.gov> Message-ID: <481F8194.4040400@pacbell.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: ... > I was a bit young for the earliest days of CP/M, so in my mind, > "traditional" was the era of packaged systems like Osbournes > and Kaypros. My mistake. I even have a XOR 5-slot S-100 box > at home, a gift from an older gentleman who happened to mention > something to a relative of mine who works at the Post Office, but > that's a long story - the short of it is that I have enough hardware > to get it working, but no 8" CP/M disks, let alone the right > one for that machine. This page of mine has information on the XOR computer, including a couple of disk images that will get you running. The disk images came courtesy of fellow list member Jerry Wright. http://www.thebattles.net/xor/xor.html At the time I obtained the computer, I found very little information about it on the web, which is why I started the web page. I had disassembled the monitor ROM before obtaining the original source. There were a couple spots in the code that didn't make any sense to me, thinking perhaps my ROM had dropped some bits. Once I had the source code, I found it really was a bug in the original monitor. While the XOR used a Z80, the code was written with an 8080 assembler and some asm macros to handle some Z80-isms. The correct macros were "PUSHIX" and "POPIX", but the coder wrote "PUSH IX" and "POP IX", resulting in bad binary. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 5 17:23:26 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:23:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Why not wait for the WiMax cards that are due out later this year? Allegedly they have a range of about 30 miles! :) Then most of us in the UK can interconnect our computers, hehe. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 5 17:34:45 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 15:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080505153243.V67797@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 May 2008, Richard wrote: > To be honest, I would just get a cheap x86 laptop with a USB port and > use a USB<->RS232 dongle. YIKES!! I would never suggest USB to Tony! When Joe Campbell was writing his serial books, he was running 9600 through a SPOOL (~1000 feet) of wire. Apparently the cable lengths in the RS232 specs are somewhat conservative in their "limits". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 5 17:43:47 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:43:47 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 May 2008 15:34:45 -0700. <20080505153243.V67797@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20080505153243.V67797 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > I would never suggest USB to Tony! If he doesn't like USB, he can always board swap something else in there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 5 18:01:02 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080505160025.H70217@shell.lmi.net> > > I would never suggest USB to Tony! > > If he doesn't like USB, he can always board swap something else in > there. or upgrade all of his computers to PCs running Windoze Vista? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 5 18:03:25 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:03:25 +0000 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <20080505153243.V67797@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080505230325.GA21257@usap.gov> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 04:43:47PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <20080505153243.V67797 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > > > I would never suggest USB to Tony! > > If he doesn't like USB, he can always board swap something else in > there. tea -> monitor -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.7 F (-54.3 C) Windchill -97.8 F (-72.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.9 kts Grid 55 Barometer 697.0 mb (9993 ft ) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 5 18:13:47 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:13:47 +0000 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080505153243.V67797@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080505153243.V67797@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080505231347.GB21257@usap.gov> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:34:45PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > When Joe Campbell was writing his serial books, he was running 9600 > through a SPOOL (~1000 feet) of wire. Apparently the cable lengths in the > RS232 specs are somewhat conservative in their "limits". We used to run CAT3 (telco) wire across a 5000 sq ft building from user terminals to our machine room (via the Nevada Western RJ-11 modular gear I mentioned earlier this year). We couldn't get reliable 19200 comms, but we were solid at 9600 for interactive sessions or Kermit transfers and the like. There was only one thing that we noticed that was strange - typically to log in, you'd tap the return key a couple of times to get the host port to lock onto your current baud rate. We usually saw one lowercase 'u' echoed per press of the return key prior to getting the login prompt. Once we got characters from the host, we didn't see the strange echo. We always attributed that to an unloaded line from the host and crosstalk between the Tx and RX pair between the terminal and the host, but perhaps someone else has a theory. In any case, we were well past the normally accepted cable length and had probably millions of keystrokes go through intact. For a single point-to-point extra-long serial cable, one can explore expensive, low-capacitance transmission cable, or perhaps RS-422/RS-232 converters, but I think Tony was less interested in long cables to trip unwary mammals anyway (or else short-haul fiber modems could be a possibility). I have some of the same requirements as Tony for interconnecting older devices, but my solution was to blow a hole in the computer room wall and run fiber, 10Base2, CAT5, and 25-pr Telco cable between the second floor and the basement, reducing the trip hazard. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.7 F (-54.3 C) Windchill -97.8 F (-72.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.9 kts Grid 55 Barometer 697.0 mb (9993 ft ) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 5 18:11:40 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:11:40 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > Why not wait for the WiMax cards that are due out later this year? Allegedly they have a range of about 30 miles! > :) > > Then most of us in the UK can interconnect our computers, hehe. Now I'm curious what the *worst* network technology ever was... (modern-day wireless Ethernet's pretty darn bad, but there were presumably some real horrors over the years) There must have been some past networking technology equivalent to using VHS video tape for data storage :-) cheers Jules From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 5 18:26:38 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > There must have been some past networking technology equivalent to using VHS > video tape for data storage :-) The ersatz token-passing protocol used with Atari STs and MIDI might qualify if anyone used it for anything more serious than a cool hack. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 5 18:38:23 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2008, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 5 May 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > There must have been some past networking technology equivalent to using VHS > > video tape for data storage :-) > > The ersatz token-passing protocol used with Atari STs and MIDI might > qualify if anyone used it for anything more serious than a cool hack. Oh. How about those assorted daisy-chain schemes using RT11 phone cables? I remember the labels reading something like "much less expensive than Ethernet". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 5 18:49:36 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080505164834.K71418@shell.lmi.net> > Oh. How about those assorted daisy-chain schemes using RT11 phone cables? > I remember the labels reading something like "much less expensive than > Ethernet". If we are going to discuss the WORST systems, surely we can't leave out the TRS80 casstte port system that RS came up with for classrooms! From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 5 19:36:54 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080505164834.K71418@shell.lmi.net> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> <20080505164834.K71418@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <57537.64.62.206.10.1210034214.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Fred wrote: > If we are going to discuss the WORST systems, surely we can't leave out > the TRS80 casstte port system that RS came up with for classrooms! Well, don't leave us in suspense. In what way was it done badly? Was it unreliable? Did it fail to meet its design objectives? From brain at jbrain.com Mon May 5 20:27:24 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 20:27:24 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <481FB3FC.1030408@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Andrew Burton wrote: >> Why not wait for the WiMax cards that are due out later this year? >> Allegedly they have a range of about 30 miles! >> :) >> >> Then most of us in the UK can interconnect our computers, hehe. > > Now I'm curious what the *worst* network technology ever was... > (modern-day wireless Ethernet's pretty darn bad, but there were > presumably some real horrors over the years) > Dunno about networking, but when you get 'round to general protocols, let me know and I'll dazzle you with the horridness that is the CBM IEC protocol. And, if that does not phase you, I can then relate how vendors abused it to get more speed. Jim From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 5 20:30:02 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 20:30:02 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <57537.64.62.206.10.1210034214.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> <20080505164834.K71418@shell.lmi.net> <57537.64.62.206.10.1210034214.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <481FB49A.1010701@pacbell.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Fred wrote: >> If we are going to discuss the WORST systems, surely we can't leave out >> the TRS80 casstte port system that RS came up with for classrooms! > > Well, don't leave us in suspense. In what way was it done badly? > Was it unreliable? Did it fail to meet its design objectives? > > Our school system had one, back in 1981. There was a panel that was a mux/demux to 24-ish diskless model 3s. The cassette in/out from each of these came to the mux/demux box, through a selector switch, to the teachers model 3 w/dual floppy system. At the start of a lesson, the teacher would tell the students, OK, type "CLOAD" now. The teacher would load the lesson program into memory, then type "CSAVE" to broadcast it to all the listening machines. I believe it was bidirectional. To upload, the teacher would select one of the 24 machines to listen to and the CLOAD/CSAVE was swapped. OK, so it depends on the notoriously unreliable TRS-80 cassette interface, and on the cooperation of 24 clueless sixteen year olds. What could possibly go wrong? Truthfully, it was probably more reliable than CSAVE/CLOAD with a cassette since there was no gain/bias/speed variation to contend with, and it was probably about the cheapest solution to the problem. As a side note, I had learned to program on BASIC on the school's wang 2200 computers, then I started programming in assembly on the TRS-80s that were available. The summer before my senior year the high school placed an ad looking for people to write educational programs for the 50 or so model 3s they had just bought. At the time there wasn't a lot of off the shelf software for what they wanted, so they wrote it themselves. They were paying $10/hr, much more than the $5/hr I was getting paid to program Apple IIs. I applied and got rejected, and I heard they hired a number of college-level CS majors. At the start of the following school year I had to do a couple weeks (1 hr/day) of "Computer Orientation", which all the teachers and students had to go through. There were some lessons on how to type, how to load a program, and the very rudiments of programming in BASIC. I looked at the source code of the programs they had developed and saw that the college CS majors weren't any more qualified than me (often less) to write those programs. I was even more shocked when I later read that the $200K the school had spent on the computers and software development were more than defrayed when they sold the rights to their software to some publishing house for more than $200K. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 5 20:35:01 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:35:01 -0700 Subject: Autonetics D37 ? Message-ID: <481FB5C5.8070608@bitsavers.org> > I picked up what I believe is a console from an Autonetics model D-37 Minuteman I missile guidance computer. D-37 is a DTL computer for the Minuteman II. There is some info and a picture on Wikipedia now about it. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon May 5 21:09:17 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 22:09:17 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200805052209.17231.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 05 May 2008 19:38, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 5 May 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > On Mon, 5 May 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > There must have been some past networking technology equivalent to > > > using VHS video tape for data storage :-) > > > > The ersatz token-passing protocol used with Atari STs and MIDI might > > qualify if anyone used it for anything more serious than a cool hack. > > Oh. How about those assorted daisy-chain schemes using RT11 phone cables? > I remember the labels reading something like "much less expensive than > Ethernet". I don't remember running into those, how were they interfaced? And used with what sort of equipment? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 5 21:19:41 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052209.17231.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <200805052209.17231.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Oh. How about those assorted daisy-chain schemes using RT11 phone cables? > > I remember the labels reading something like "much less expensive than > > Ethernet". > > I don't remember running into those, how were they interfaced? And used > with what sort of equipment? I usually found them in the form of dongles that fit into serial or parallel ports. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 5 21:24:07 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052209.17231.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "May 5, 8 10:09:17 pm" Message-ID: <200805060224.m462O8NK015818@floodgap.com> > > > > There must have been some past networking technology equivalent to > > > > using VHS video tape for data storage :-) > > > > > > The ersatz token-passing protocol used with Atari STs and MIDI might > > > qualify if anyone used it for anything more serious than a cool hack. > > > > Oh. How about those assorted daisy-chain schemes using RT11 phone cables? > > I remember the labels reading something like "much less expensive than > > Ethernet". > > I don't remember running into those, how were they interfaced? And used > with what sort of equipment? That's PhoneNet, most likely. I still have a PhoneNet segment here for some of the non-Ethernet capable machines. And what's wrong with VHS tape for backup? *pats Alpha Micro* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley ---------------- From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 5 22:13:02 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 23:13:02 -0400 Subject: pdp-8/l supply In-Reply-To: <20080505214910.GD32325@usap.gov> References: <6319.1210018737@mini> <20080505214910.GD32325@usap.gov> Message-ID: <11295.1210043582@mini> [excellent advice, btw - thanks!] but this one I was wondering about, and I like your technique: Ethan Dicks wrote: ... >The other issue that comes up is backplane oxidation. What has done >wonders for me in the past is to take manila folders, cut them into >strips the width of the card fingers, fold into a 2-thickness layer, >then wet down with 1,2-propanol (isopropyl) and insert/remove a few >times. You will probably see dark grey streaks on the paper the first >couple of times you do it. (I owe you a few pints!) -brad From dave at mitton.com Mon May 5 21:43:44 2008 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 22:43:44 -0400 Subject: PC Tech Journals to go Message-ID: <200805060314.m463DwXb019017@keith.ezwind.net> I offered these once before, but arrangements fell through. I have the following collection of magazines to give for the cost of shipping. USPS Media Mail works best (source zip code 01845) PC Tech Journal 1984 - 1988 1984 V1 n: 8/May,9/Jun 1984 V2 n: 1/Jul,6/Dec 1985 V3 n: 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 1986 V4 n: 1-13 1987 V5 n: 1-13 1988 V6 n: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11,12 1989 V7 n: 1,2,3,4 Extras: PC Products: Jan 84, Jan 85, Feb 85, Jul 85 ---- Dave. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 5 22:33:56 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:33:56 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080505160025.H70217@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080505160025.H70217@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 5, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I would never suggest USB to Tony! >> >> If he doesn't like USB, he can always board swap something else in >> there. > > or upgrade all of his computers to PCs running Windoze Vista? I thought you typed "upgrade". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 5 22:41:27 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <20080505160025.H70217@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080505204038.L81703@shell.lmi.net> > > or upgrade all of his computers to PCs running Windoze Vista? On Mon, 5 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > I thought you typed "upgrade". I guess that it's futile to be facetious with this group! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 5 22:51:17 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:51:17 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080505204038.L81703@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080505160025.H70217@shell.lmi.net> <20080505204038.L81703@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7348DC8E-6C98-48BC-AC71-2051388B39AA@neurotica.com> On May 5, 2008, at 11:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> or upgrade all of his computers to PCs running Windoze Vista? > > On Mon, 5 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I thought you typed "upgrade". > > I guess that it's futile to be facetious with this group! FECESious? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 5 23:20:19 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 00:20:19 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3CFD9DF7-0847-4C7F-B638-EB6E3FAE34F4@neurotica.com> On May 5, 2008, at 4:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial >> extenders. > > I'm not sure about Zigbee, but the useful range of Bluetooth is very > short. There are claims of over 30 meters, but as far as I can tell > that must be under laboratory conditions, e.g. in a faraday cage. > In the real world, more than about 3 meters line of sight works > poorly, > as does non-line-of-sight at any distance. It's also not likely that Bluetooth will be around for much longer. Zigbee solves many of its problems, it's much easier to work with, and is gaining popularity fast. Tony, you might look into the XBee modules from Maxstream. The are serial<->Zigbee bridge modules that are very easy to configure and use. They are also cheap at ~$20/ea. They may solve your problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ms at vaxcluster.de Tue May 6 00:00:21 2008 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 07:00:21 +0200 Subject: DECserver 90TL... In-Reply-To: <26c11a640805051418q235f5f34vaa1acf781b3a1eb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <481DC526.7010507@vaxcluster.de> <26c11a640805051418q235f5f34vaa1acf781b3a1eb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <481FE5E5.5000001@vaxcluster.de> Thanks to some helpfull hands from this list, my DECservers are up and running now. Thank you all! Now i know what to do next weekend... ;-) Many greetings ms -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Man hat Gedanken, die bleiben ewig d?mlich..." (Campino) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 6 00:27:56 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:27:56 -0700 Subject: C64 Cartridge disassembly (using MMC Replay w/RR-Net) In-Reply-To: References: <20080505144711.23FA656FE0@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: At 8:46 AM -0700 5/5/08, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I just took a minute, I can feel it on my bad cart as well. I don't >have time at the moment, but I'll look into disassembly later >(hopefully I'll have time this week). > >I figured it made sense to mention which cart I was looking to sacrifice. :^) I just thought I'd share the joke of the week. My "bad" cart, seems to be working now. Something tells me it had dirty contacts when I tested it initially. Needless to say, I won't be sacrificing it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 5 06:37:30 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 07:37:30 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0E00CGN83VQ3N1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 01:25:47 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 09:03:03PM -0400, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Hi Ethan, I reread your email and thought I'd try to answer some of your >> questions regarding a simple do it yourself CP/M computer. > >Thanks. > >> My first piece of advice is to ask Allison ;-) since she has done this >> dozens of times and can boot CP/M blind folded on a spark gap radio. > >Sure. I was hoping she would chime in. My experience over the years >with CP/M has been somewhat tangental (I've worked on Kapros at work >back in 1980s, I own a couple of Kaypros still, and I've done a little >bit with 22disk and such under MS-DOS), but everytime Allison posts >on CP/M, I learn something. > >> Your basic hardware certainly sounds CP/M capable. I assume that it can >> swap RAM in to the lower pages though, right? CP/M requires RAM at $0000 >> through some address (depends). > >Right. As it stands, the hardware probable cannot do that, but the ace >up my sleeve is that there is a 16V8 GAL that is already wired to important >bus signals so that it can act as the chip select circuit. I was >planning on using one of the output flops as the bootstrap-ROM-enable. >I've done similar sorts of things with MC68000 designs in the past. > >> It likes RAM all the way to $FFFF but can >> live with ROM in the $F000 range. Less RAM than 48K makes things difficult >> though, IMO. > >That's what I was unsure about - but RAM to $EFFF and ROM from $F000 on >up is easy to implement. CP/M doesnt "require" 64K as it's entirely possible to boot and get a prompt with less than 16k. If you wish to run any application with a hint of usefulness you need at least 48k and 56K would be fine so ram to 0f000h serves. I presume the F000h block is rom/Eprom which can be very useful. >> How I implemented my machine was to use a memory configuration latch >> (74LS273)... The schematics are all on my N8VEM page. > >I'll check those out when the sats rise here. > >> A pair of 62256's would work but I prefer a solution using a 512Kx8 SRAM. >> That lets you use the 64K for RAM and the rest for a RAM drive. Whatever >> does it for you though. > >I happen to have some 62256s with me, not any 512Kx8 SRAMs, and the next >plane isn't for almost 6 months. Go with the 32k parts! Hint to save wiring time stack the one atop the other and keep CS/ seperate. Also if you have a 32K eprom you can bank switch that in (do it as low ram/low rom) and you can put CPm and utility stuff in there. >> Writing the CBIOS is actually not that hard. I wrote one more or less based >> on the one in the Andy Laird's CP/M programmers guide book. It was >> recommended by Allison and is *the* reference book AFAIK. CP/M is a great >> OS and is rather portable considering everything it does. > >Hmm... is there a soft copy of that book anywhere? It sounds like the >perfect reading companion. It would be but I know of no on line copy. If you cant cind the on line copies of the bios from teh book I think I have them and can send to pvt email. >> I use 16550 UARTs but the CBIOS abstracts all those details away. I think >> CP/M could care less what sort of serial port you use, even if you use one >> at all. Just implement the CBIOS IO routines and it'll work. Same thing >> for drives; you can use floppy drives, memory, IDE, hard disks, whatever >> from CP/M's perspective they are all block devices. > >Right... but what I _have_ is a choice between a 16550 and a 6402. One >advantage of the 6402 is that its options are hardware selected, so the >bootstrap code doesn't have to do much to be able to squirt out a message >that it's alive. It's probably impractical to put a video circuit on this >design, so I'm going with a serial console in the CBIOS I/O routines >and shifting the burden of display and keyboard input to a dedicated >device. Either will work likely less hardware with the 16550 as it has BRG. >> Best of luck with your project. Let me know if there is anything I can do >> to help! > >Thanks. I still have lots of reading to do, as well as a bit of work to >fiddle up some GAL equations to implement the memory map. It's going to >be somewhat trivial to roll out a 32K RAM/8K ROM design, since there's >already a pair of 28-pin sockets wired up for SRAM and EPROM. The first >big trick will be mounting a second SRAM chip. I do wish I had a 512Kx8 >SRAM with me, but alas, no. > The gal can make life much easier. The larger ramm is nice for MP/M or implementing a soft ramdisk. >I think I have all the parts needed for a ROM emulator, but if not, I >do have a battery-backed 8K SRAM (48Z08?) that I can program in a device >programmer and treat as a ROM for firmware development. At home, I have >a Grammar Engine PromICE, but I didn't happen to haul that along. The ram desive will ge you there. back in the late 70s and early 80s I did it with less (2716 and a home made programmer). > >Thanks for the pointers. I'll check out your project when the 'net >comes up for us. if I can be any help let me know. Allison >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-May-2008 at 01:10 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.9 F (-56.6 C) Windchill -103.1 F (-75.0 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 9.0 kts Grid 41 Barometer 693.6 mb (10119 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 5 06:38:18 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 07:38:18 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0E001408H9QFP1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Joachim Thiemann" > Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 22:27:36 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On a tangent, I am curious: how difficult is it to make some form of >CP/M-68k work on a bare-bones 68000 or 68008 system? Long ago, I did >wire up a 68008 system with leftover chips; but my memory is fuzzy. >Can't even remember if the DTACK grounded trick works on the 68008, or >if I forced access times somehow... > >What does CP/M-68k expect in RAM, ROM and I/O locations? > >Joe. NO idea, the sources are on Gaby's site and likely manuals too. Allison From apw at adrianwise.co.uk Mon May 5 17:43:39 2008 From: apw at adrianwise.co.uk (Adrian Wise) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 23:43:39 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <481F8D9B.7010800@adrianwise.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > So, I think the problem reduces to 'how to interconnect RS232 ports'. let > me add some constraints : > > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the > answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). > > Prefereably no cables at all. Possibly a bit OTT but these guys seem to have what you want: http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?familyid=145 "legacy" serial over WiFi. I've used their RS232 <-> current loop converters, but no experience of any of their products at this end of the complexity spectrum. Adrian From g-wright at att.net Tue May 6 01:05:36 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 06:05:36 +0000 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed Message-ID: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I cant seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot disk or better yet a full set of disks. - jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From technobug at comcast.net Tue May 6 01:39:45 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (Claude R. Ceccon) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:39:45 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052154.m45Ls9g3072360@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805052154.m45Ls9g3072360@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <153FBFEF-8285-41B7-9730-79A84E17BF1B@comcast.net> On Mon, 5 May 2008 20:55:51 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > Quite often I need to transfer data between 2 machines. Maybe to > download a file from this PC, which I've in turn downloaded from a web > site, to run on one of the classics. Maybe to print out some listing > from > a classic. Whatever. > [...] > > So, I think the problem reduces to 'how to interconnect RS232 > ports'. let > me add some constraints : > Requirements as I understand them: 1 > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the > answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). (see for an interesting discussion on cable lengths v.s. data rate - your data rates spec'ed below indicate that this is not a problem... 2. > Prefereably no cables at all. One solution I've come up with is to > use a > couple of line drivers and a long cable between them. A long cable > that > my parents, or the cat, will get tangled up in :-( i.e. no cables hence 1 does not apply 3. > No line-of-sight between the machines This excludes optical means. 4. > Must work at 300 and 1200 baud. 110 and 9600 baud would be a bonus 5. > I only need one pair of machines linked at a time. I don't need a > network. [...] Point-to-point - collision avoidance not required. 6. > Must not make use of any flow control lines on the RS232 port, since > some > of my machines don't support them. 7. > Using classic, or at least repairable, hardwre is a bonus :-) 8. > I said 'RS232'. I mean asynchronous serial, of course :-). [...] 9. > I've been looking at some of the license-exempt radio modules, but > they > either are half-duplex or amke use of the flow control lines > (typically > they buffer bytes internally, then de-assert a flow control line > while they pack up that data and send it to the other end). Does this mean that you require full-dupex? ------- If 8 is required, you probably have to go with a dual channel, radio link of some sort. Zigbee is definitely overkill based on 5. A simple set of transceivers should do the trick. TI and others have parts and reference designs. However, my experience has been disappointing in enclosed and partitioned areas with these devices - at least at legal power levels... Item 7 makes me think X10. This is a classic data-over-power-line method that has been around for good number of years. It is generally used to control lights, sprinklers, intrusion alarms, etc. and uses a simple protocol. However, it appears to be half-duplex. The info is out there on the web. You might want to look at ST's ST7540 and ST7538 which are current power-line modems and should do what you want. A small micro to buffer things will probably take care of 6. Jules Richardson noted: > Hmm, I've got a deep mistrust of any 'data over the mains' > technology, but > might that be an option here? I assume *most* of your systems are > physically > plugged into the mains anyway, so it'd meet the ideal requirement > for no extra > cabling. Data rates presumably not lightning fast, of course... I don't think security is of concern here unless you are extremely paranoid or are transferring prohibited material (e.g. perhaps with your collection, ASCII kiddy porn to the impact printer :=P). CRC From djg at pdp8.net Tue May 6 06:56:00 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 07:56:00 -0400 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! Message-ID: <200805061156.m46Bu0Q16940@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > I can probably coalesce them into a single PDF. How good are the > scans? > I think the scans are pretty good. The combining isn't the issue, I can easily do that. The last step of my scans is to flip though the document checking to make sure the scans are ok for each page, in the right order, remove scanning artifacts etc. Since you have the manual if you want you can do that. If not I will see if I can fit it in this weekend. > I am not sure if my scanner will get some of the larger diagrams all > in one image. > The one I scanned on can do 11x17 which I think fitted the foldout pages. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 6 07:45:16 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 07:45:16 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805060224.m462O8NK015818@floodgap.com> References: <200805060224.m462O8NK015818@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <482052DC.90300@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And what's wrong with VHS tape for backup? Actually, nothing I suppose. All the problems are at restore time... ;) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 6 07:57:44 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 05:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <482052DC.90300@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "May 6, 8 07:45:16 am" Message-ID: <200805061257.m46Cvi4v010616@floodgap.com> > > And what's wrong with VHS tape for backup? > > Actually, nothing I suppose. All the problems are at restore time... ;) As long as it's not a crapola player, it works well. The problem is that people kept buying their local crapola West Elbonian VHS player. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never eat more than you can lift. -- Miss Piggy ---------------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 6 07:53:52 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 07:53:52 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <153FBFEF-8285-41B7-9730-79A84E17BF1B@comcast.net> References: <200805052154.m45Ls9g3072360@dewey.classiccmp.org> <153FBFEF-8285-41B7-9730-79A84E17BF1B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <482054E0.4090605@gmail.com> Claude R. Ceccon wrote: > Jules Richardson noted: > >> Hmm, I've got a deep mistrust of any 'data over the mains' technology, but >> might that be an option here? I assume *most* of your systems are physically >> plugged into the mains anyway, so it'd meet the ideal requirement for no extra >> cabling. Data rates presumably not lightning fast, of course... > > I don't think security is of concern here unless you are extremely > paranoid or are transferring prohibited material (e.g. perhaps with your > collection, ASCII kiddy porn to the impact printer :=P). Ahh, no - on that note I meant 'mistrust' as in reliability. Running data over power lines always seems like the sort of thing that'd work in the lab, but be a little unreliable out in the real world with all sorts of 'noisy' devices plugged into the system. I have no idea if Tony has sensitive data to steal. Maybe he'd find hoardes of HP schematic thieves dressed as power company workers camping outside his front door :-) cheers Jules From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue May 6 08:00:19 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 09:00:19 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP/M SBC design? Message-ID: <48201E23020000370002A285@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Ethan asks: >From some recent reading of various materials I've been finding >as I do my research, it does seem that a lot of post-S-100 systems >had 56K or 62K of RAM and 2K or 4K of ROM, still. Since I don't >know specifics, let me ask a general question in the hopes that >someone can figure out what machines and answer accordingly... for >those 2K/4K ROM systems, did any portion of those ROMs get accessed >once CP/M was up, or were they vestigal at that point? I can imagine >some sort of monitor program or such being mapped in for when the >OS got lost in the weeds, but what was that ROM space still good for? You mention boot ROM's, but there's more uses that chew up "useful" address space too: A certain fraction of CP/M machines had memory-mapped video and this stopped them (or only through mapping trickery they got there) from having all 64K of RAM available to the user. For example, 24x80 of character-cell video will take up 2kbytes - add some video attribute bits (flash, blink, underline, bold for common video chips), and then the software (which has to be in either RAM or ROM, doesn't matter which because it will eat up some memory space in either event) to drive the memory-mapped graphics and you can have 4K or more taken up by the overhead of memory-mapped video. That 2K or 4K bytes doesn't have to actually eat up user RAM if it is accessed only via I/O space mapping. Some systems made good use of shadow-mapped ROM that was mapped in to do the actual BIOS (disk and terminal I/O) work and then mapped itself back out to give the user more RAM. This only affects a fraction of the "middle-aged" CP/M systems because the oldest assume a real video or hardcopy terminal at an I/O port, and the newest assume that a PC-clone is doing all that work for them, again at an I/O port :-). Tim. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 6 08:50:56 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:50:56 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <01C8AF5E.CF28BFC0@MSE_D03> Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link between two modems. I believe Tony also has a NetCommander which would let him select which remote system to connect to and, with a few SS relays, even remotely turn the selected system power on and off. m From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 6 08:51:15 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 08:51:15 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> You'd think there would be a relatively big market for serial-to-Ethernet "just works" bridges. You'd think it wouldn't be hard. Then again, some of the USB-to-serial adapters I've tried weren't foolproof. At 05:43 PM 5/5/2008, Adrian Wise wrote: >Possibly a bit OTT but these guys seem to have what you want: >http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?familyid=145 >"legacy" serial over WiFi. Ah, there they are. One menu up. I guess it depends on how far is "far". Did Tony say he wants to stretch a cable from home to the pub? :-) - John From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 6 09:56:51 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 10:56:51 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> References: <114064.78030.qm@web23413.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <481F942C.7030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <482071B3.9010503@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Andrew Burton wrote: >> Why not wait for the WiMax cards that are due out later this year? >> Allegedly they have a range of about 30 miles! >> :) >> >> Then most of us in the UK can interconnect our computers, hehe. > > Now I'm curious what the *worst* network technology ever was... > (modern-day wireless Ethernet's pretty darn bad, but there were > presumably some real horrors over the years) > > There must have been some past networking technology equivalent to using > VHS video tape for data storage :-) Vinyl ROM. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 6 10:08:28 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 10:08:28 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> References: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4820746C.7000408@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > You'd think there would be a relatively big market for serial-to-Ethernet > "just works" bridges. You'd think it wouldn't be hard. Then again, some > of the USB-to-serial adapters I've tried weren't foolproof. There is, and they're called terminal servers or console servers, depending on which way they're pointed. Digi, Xyplex, DEC, Livingston, and umpty-eleven other companies have made them. Doc Shipley From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 6 10:14:08 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:14:08 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <01C8AF5E.CF28BFC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C8AF5E.CF28BFC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <482075C0.7020507@gmail.com> M H Stein wrote: > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link between two > modems. With an acoustic coupler, or with a direct connection? Do cordless handsets carry the entire spectrum of sounds a corded phone does? Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 6 10:22:31 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 10:22:31 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <4820746C.7000408@mdrconsult.com> References: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> <4820746C.7000408@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080506102054.06baf310@mail.threedee.com> At 10:08 AM 5/6/2008, Doc Shipley wrote: >There is, and they're called terminal servers or console servers, depending on which way they're pointed. Digi, Xyplex, DEC, Livingston, and umpty-eleven other companies have made them. Looking at it that way, I've owned a few... but I think my brain was tuned to the frequency of "new", one-to-one and $40 and a web interface. - John From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 6 11:20:11 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 10:20:11 -0600 Subject: duh.... Tektronix 4010 has no microprocessor! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 May 2008 07:56:00 -0400. <200805061156.m46Bu0Q16940@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: In article <200805061156.m46Bu0Q16940 at h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > > I can probably coalesce them into a single PDF. How good are the > > scans? > > > I think the scans are pretty good. The combining isn't the issue, > I can easily do that. The last step of my scans is to flip though > the document checking to make sure the scans are ok for each page, > in the right order, remove scanning artifacts etc. Since you have the > manual if you want you can do that. If not I will see if I can fit it > in this weekend. OK, I'll give it a look-over and check it out for consistency. Also, mine might be a different revision of the document or I might have some change pages. If I do, I'll scan what isn't in yours. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 6 12:31:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:31:59 -0600 Subject: govliq: what are these things? Message-ID: Here's a representative lot: They have descriptions like "General Dynamics signal processor adapter assembly" and they all look like circuit boards with a regular grid and an arrangements of pins placed into the grids. The grids are divided into areas and sometimes color coded. Does anyone have any familiarity with them? There are a ton of these on govliq right now. It seems to be some kind of test harness. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 6 12:25:38 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805061734.NAA01857@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the > answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). Don't give up on long cables until you try them. Especially if the drivers approach the spec's maximum voltages, serial lines work at distances far greater than the spec says - the spec is pessimistic. Few environments are as electrically noisy as what the spec is designed for, and keeping the driving voltages near the maximums permitted increases the noise margin substantially. If a simple serial cable doesn't work, measure the voltage produced by the drivers and add additional circuitry, if necessary, to jack it up to the 12-15 volt range. It would probably help to decrease the output impedance as much as the spec allows, too. (I'm sure you, of all people, don't need to be told how to do either one. :) At one point, years ago, my house netlink was run over a four-wire "metallic circuit", which was then-telco-speak for dry copper the whole run, without any loading or equialization or such. While I did use modems for normal use, I fould I could run it at something like 50 baud without any modems at all - and that was probably two miles or so of (POTS quality) wire. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 6 12:52:20 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 12:52:20 -0500 Subject: FS: SGI Iris Crimson Message-ID: <51ea77730805061052y2a79a6c3nb10824817c6737ea@mail.gmail.com> The time has come to move the big red box from my hallway (to make room for other big boxes, of course.) I was going to go straight to ebay but thought I'd offer it up here first. It's marked as a "Server" model but as been upgraded to "Elan" gfx, and I've got the replacement case badge for Elan. I've got one hard drive in there now which boots IRIX but fails looking for other volumes, so consider it ready to reload the OS. RAM is at 256mb. A few pics here: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/sets/72157604070207238/ Pickup only on this one, unless you're *really* serious about owning a Crimson :) I'm in 60074, NW of Chicago. -- j From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 6 12:57:18 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <01C8AF5E.CF28BFC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C8AF5E.CF28BFC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20080506105035.N9514@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 May 2008, M H Stein wrote: > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? Sure . . . but, the handsets don't fit acoustic couplers very well. There were "road warrior" acoustic couplers that would fit a lot of things, there are cables for some cellphones, etc. The real way to go is to wire a 2.5mm plug onto the cord of a handset of a POT. Using that as the headset for a cordless or cellphone gives you a REAL handset to talk with, and provides a proper fit for the built-in acoustic cups of most Bell 103 modems. 'course you COULD go direct connect, IFF your phone company has started to comply with Carterphone V Western Electric. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Tue May 6 14:09:58 2008 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:09:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FS: SGI Iris Crimson In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805061052y2a79a6c3nb10824817c6737ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2008, Jason T wrote: > The time has come to move the big red box from my hallway (to make > room for other big boxes, of course.) I was going to go straight to > ebay but thought I'd offer it up here first. It's marked as a > "Server" model but as been upgraded to "Elan" gfx, and I've got the > replacement case badge for Elan. I've got one hard drive in there now > which boots IRIX but fails looking for other volumes, so consider it > ready to reload the OS. RAM is at 256mb. A few pics here: > > http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/sets/72157604070207238/ > > Pickup only on this one, unless you're *really* serious about owning a > Crimson :) I'm in 60074, NW of Chicago. Hey Jason; I'm a couple of hours from you, certainly within driving range. Although I did go down to St Louis earlier this year and pick up an Onyx, Origin2000 and Onyx2 - so I'd have to convince the wife to let me complete the collection ;) What price neighbourhood are you wishing for? - JP From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Tue May 6 14:10:28 2008 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:10:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FS: SGI Iris Crimson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2008, JP Hindin wrote: > On Tue, 6 May 2008, Jason T wrote: > > The time has come to move the big red box from my hallway (to make > > room for other big boxes, of course.) I was going to go straight to > > ebay but thought I'd offer it up here first. It's marked as a > > "Server" model but as been upgraded to "Elan" gfx, and I've got the > > replacement case badge for Elan. I've got one hard drive in there now > > which boots IRIX but fails looking for other volumes, so consider it > > ready to reload the OS. RAM is at 256mb. A few pics here: > > > > http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/sets/72157604070207238/ > > > > Pickup only on this one, unless you're *really* serious about owning a > > Crimson :) I'm in 60074, NW of Chicago. > > Hey Jason; > > I'm a couple of hours from you, certainly within driving range. Although I > did go down to St Louis earlier this year and pick up an Onyx, Origin2000 > and Onyx2 - so I'd have to convince the wife to let me complete the > collection ;) > > What price neighbourhood are you wishing for? Tada. And the moron dances for the entire list. Sorry guys. - JP From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 6 15:20:42 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:20:42 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <01C8AF95.9C9A3980@mandr71> -----------Original Message: Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:14:08 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <482075C0.7020507 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed M H Stein wrote: > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link between two > modems. With an acoustic coupler, or with a direct connection? Do cordless handsets carry the entire spectrum of sounds a corded phone does? Peace... Sridhar ---------Reply:----------- I was thinking direct connect; seems to me all you'd need is a small matching transformer and some attenuation. Bandwidth ought to be good for 1200 bd absolute worst case, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't go faster. More research is needed... m From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 6 15:23:08 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:23:08 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <01C8AF95.9E025500@mandr71> --------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:21:49 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 12:10:39AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Just sitting here wondering why you're not using one of the enhanced- > functioning Z80 chips. Even going with the 64180 or Z180 would give > you 2 UARTS and an MMU, in addtion to 2 DMA channels and a timer. I can't speak for Andrew, but for me, I already have this SBC with CPU, some RAM, enough ROM, and a peripheral bus with 5 or 6 PIO chips, all in a package a little smaller than an Apple II PSU. -------------Reply: You might ask on comp.os.cpm; at least one person there claims to have installed CP/M on a printer buffer/sharer. m From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 6 16:57:41 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> References: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <49629.64.62.206.10.1210111061.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> John wrote: > You'd think there would be a relatively big market for serial-to-Ethernet > "just works" bridges. Probably, if someone came up with a reasonable definition of what "just works" actually means for such a device. If I plug this hypothetical "just works" serial-to-Ethernet box onto a serial port on an old computer, and plug the ethernet into the switch along with my desktop computer, laptop, and wireless router, what exactly should the box do? And what should I, as the user, do? Eric From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 6 17:02:11 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:02:11 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 May 2008 14:57:41 -0700. <49629.64.62.206.10.1210111061.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <49629.64.62.206.10.1210111061.squirrel at ruckus.brouhaha.com>, "Eric Smith" writes: > If I plug this hypothetical "just works" serial-to-Ethernet box onto > a serial port on an old computer, and plug the ethernet into the > switch along with my desktop computer, laptop, and wireless router, > what exactly should the box do? And what should I, as the user, do? I'd expect the box to initiate a telnet session to the ethernet side and look like a "computer" to the terminal side. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 6 17:23:56 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59118.64.62.206.10.1210112636.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> John wrote that he thought there was a market for a serial-to-Ethernet "just works" adapter. I wrote: > If I plug this hypothetical "just works" serial-to-Ethernet box onto > a serial port on an old computer, and plug the ethernet into the > switch along with my desktop computer, laptop, and wireless router, > what exactly should the box do? And what should I, as the user, do? Richard wrote: > I'd expect the box to initiate a telnet session to the ethernet side A telnet session to where? How does the box get its IP address? I suppose one possibility would be DHCP, but that isn't consistent with "just works" because someone has to have configured a DHCP server. Even if there's already a DHCP server (e.g., in the wireless router in my example), the user won't know what IP address it assigned to the box. How does the box know the serial port parameters to use? If it's doing telnet, it could expect the other end to tell it using the RFC 2217 Telnet Com Port Control Option, but that's not ideal because very little host software supports that option. > and look like a "computer" to the terminal side. OK, I'll bite. What does a computer look like? Obviously all these questions can be answered, but it's not clear how to answer them such that the product "just works". In fact, it seems to me like it's impossible to meet the "just works" objective. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 16:36:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 5, 8 02:21:37 pm Message-ID: > > To be honest, I would just get a cheap x86 laptop with a USB port and > use a USB<->RS232 dongle. How is this an improvement on using one of my many portable machines with built-in serial ports (and indeed terminal emulators/kermit in ROM)? I already use an HP95LX palmtop for this. OK, it's limited to 512K memory unless I stick a card in it, but that's plenty of space for classic computer-related files :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 16:35:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:35:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <481F6BE1.9050009@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 5, 8 03:19:45 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > So far the best I've come up with is to link one machine to a palmtop > > (HP95LX), then transfer the data to that, carry the palmtop to the other > > machine and transdfer the data on. It's not ideal, but it does work. > > > > Any other ideas? > > Hmm, I've got a deep mistrust of any 'data over the mains' technology, but > might that be an option here? I assume *most* of your systems are physically It's certainly something I'd considered. > plugged into the mains anyway, so it'd meet the ideal requirement for no extra > cabling. Data rates presumably not lightning fast, of course... Even those machines that are battery-powered are likely to be near a mains socket, at least when I wasnt ot link them to another machine. So that's not a problem. Do true full-dupliex data-over-mains 'modems' exist? The chip I looked at for this years ago seemed to be half-duplex only (it had a trasnmit-enable input, and you were supposed to only have one transmiotter enabled at a time out of all the chips on your mains wiring).And that certainly wouldn't do here. > > Sneakernetting data around isn't such a problem in a classic context, though - That depends on how many machins you have to climb over to get between the 2 you want to connect :-) > most old machines need you to be physically present in order to do anything > (interesting) with them, so carrying the data back and forth isn't any great > hardship. > > Some sort of RS232 star-based topology could be fun, though :) I actually have soemthing called a Netcommander in front of me. It's a 16 port any-to-any RS232 switch (I also have smaller versions with 6 RS232 ports and 4 centronics ports). Since it allows different baud rates on all the ports, it must make use of the flow control lines (otherwise what happens if you try to send a lot of data from a 9600 baud port to a 300 baud one), but this might not be a problem if the 2 ports are set to the same speed. Anyway, the big prolem with it is that it's one small box, and it's only 16 ports. I could link 16 classic computers to it, but (a) I've got a lot more than 16 machines and (b) it would involve cables running everywhere, soemthing I need to avoid. It would be interesting to use that to link up 16 'favourite' machines, but that leaves a lot more that I have to think of another (temporary) solution for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 16:47:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:47:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <002d01c8aef2$bf23eb20$0501a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 5, 8 10:58:18 pm Message-ID: > > Yes V1.0.0 I think the same it's just designed to keep the motors running. > Maybe to get the media running before the heads touch it, to prevent > start/stop spots ? Of course this is one of the few 3.5" drives that has a head-load solenoid (and yes, that is controlled 'correctly'). So at least disk/head wear will be fairly minimal. It is curious that having provided a motor-control signal then essentially it's not used (min you, it appears that the Intgral hardware would support 2 floppy drives, and that facility, AFAIK, was never used) I am not sure what the Sony drive spec says about starting/stopping the spindle motor with the heads loaded. I've not heard it's a problem in other (floppy) drives, though. > Well the ability to make errors is what makes us human ;-) > The hartbeat should it be some kind of watchdog signal or a sync for > realtime processing ? It usspect it's the task-switch signal, etc. When the machine is 'idle' (no I/O going on), IR1 is the only interrupt line to be doing anything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 16:52:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:52:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <481F8D9B.7010800@adrianwise.co.uk> from "Adrian Wise" at May 5, 8 11:43:39 pm Message-ID: > Possibly a bit OTT but these guys seem to have what you want: > > http://www.bb-elec.com/product_family.asp?familyid=145 At least 2 prolems : 1 : The price. It's looks like it'd cost me about $600 for a couple of units. For that sort of mony, I'll run 'permanent' RS232 cables to all the rooms where I hace classic computers... 2 : It appears I need an ethernet port to configure them. I really don't fancy trying to write suitable configurtation software for one of my PDP11s or PERQs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 16:54:35 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:54:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080505160025.H70217@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 5, 8 04:01:02 pm Message-ID: > > > > I would never suggest USB to Tony! > > > > If he doesn't like USB, he can always board swap something else in > > there. Can I? Are there really USB-capable laptops with useful expansion slots? > > or upgrade all of his computers to PCs running Windoze Vista? s/up/down/ :-) And I'll only conside this if said PCs also come with the 'extra' I have for the classic machines I'm discussing. Namely a scheamtic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:03:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:03:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <481FB49A.1010701@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 5, 8 08:30:02 pm Message-ID: > > Eric Smith wrote: > > Fred wrote: > >> If we are going to discuss the WORST systems, surely we can't leave out > >> the TRS80 casstte port system that RS came up with for classrooms! > > > > Well, don't leave us in suspense. In what way was it done badly? > > Was it unreliable? Did it fail to meet its design objectives? > > > > > > Our school system had one, back in 1981. > > There was a panel that was a mux/demux to 24-ish diskless model 3s. The I thought the standard one was for 16 slaves to one host, but there's no reason for that limit. I seem to rememebr the same hardware could be used with Model 1s, Model 3s and Cocos, but that the host and slaves had to e the same type of machine. > cassette in/out from each of these came to the mux/demux box, through a > selector switch, to the teachers model 3 w/dual floppy system. > > At the start of a lesson, the teacher would tell the students, OK, type > "CLOAD" now. > > The teacher would load the lesson program into memory, then type "CSAVE" > to broadcast it to all the listening machines. I believe it was > bidirectional. To upload, the teacher would select one of the 24 > machines to listen to and the CLOAD/CSAVE was swapped. >From what I;ve read, anything CSAVEd on the host was broadcast to all the slaves (obviosuly only those CLOADing would actually receive it), the selector swithc was used to let the host receive something from a slave (one machine at a time). > > OK, so it depends on the notoriously unreliable TRS-80 cassette > interface, and on the cooperation of 24 clueless sixteen year olds. Muc of the unreliability of that tape interface was due to people using cheap tapes and the fact that there was a design fault in the CTR80 recorder that Radio Shack shipped with many TRS-80s. Basically that machine would put glitches on the tape if stopped by the Remote socket in _play_ mode (!). There was a fix for this -- solder a 10uF capacitor across the (DC-supplied) erase head. I read about it in the manaul for some commerical program, Tandy UK knew nothing about it, so I just did it and found all my cassette problems went away. Anyway, this doesn't apply to the 'network' unit, which presulaly was just a few op-amps to conver the record and replay signal levels. Does anyone have a schemaitc of that unit? > What could possibly go wrong? > > Truthfully, it was probably more reliable than CSAVE/CLOAD with a > cassette since there was no gain/bias/speed variation to contend with, > and it was probably about the cheapest solution to the problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:08:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:08:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052209.17231.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at May 5, 8 10:09:17 pm Message-ID: > > Oh. How about those assorted daisy-chain schemes using RT11 phone cabl= > es? > > I remember the labels reading something like "much less expensive than > > Ethernet". > > I don't remember running into those, how were they interfaced? And used= > with=20 > what sort of equipment? Thypicallyt they were used with IBM-compatible PCs and plugged into the serial ports. There were many schemes, but the simplest was something like : TxD o---->|--------+----------------o Network line | RxD o--------------+ | DTR o-/\/\/--------+ SG o-------------------------------o Network ground/common Some of the better versions had swiches built into the network cale connector so that the resistor was only connected on the 'end' 2 machines. The PC ran special software (oviously). THe DTR line was set -ve, and the resistor pulled the DTR line (of all PCs on the network) to -12V. Any machine could send data onto the network wire, all machines would then receive it. The transmitting machine monitored its own transmission, if there was a collision, it didn't see what it expected to see, there was then a stnadarrd-tupe of collision recovery. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:12:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:12:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <3CFD9DF7-0847-4C7F-B638-EB6E3FAE34F4@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 6, 8 00:20:19 am Message-ID: > Tony, you might look into the XBee modules from Maxstream. The > are serial<->Zigbee bridge modules that are very easy to configure > and use. They are also cheap at ~$20/ea. They may solve your problem. Thanks for the suggestion. I had heard of them, but I've never tried them (I think they were mentioned in Elektor a coupel of years back, for example). I've not managed to look at the manuals for them yet, but my main worry is that they'll require some kind of hardware flow control. Surely, since they can work at just about any abud rate, and since the 2 ends of the link don't have to run at the same rate on the host port (do they?) they must use flow control (otherwise what happens if a machine witha 9600 baud port is talking to to a 110 baud teletupe :-)). Maybe this isn't a problem if the 2 ends are set to the same rate, I will look into it. And certianly the price is low enough to be worth experimenting with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:23:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:23:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <482054E0.4090605@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 6, 8 07:53:52 am Message-ID: > I have no idea if Tony has sensitive data to steal. Maybe he'd find hoardes of > HP schematic thieves dressed as power company workers camping outside his > front door :-) I am not going to be transfering schematics between clasisc computers. My scheamtics are on paper, not on computer disks, anyway :-). And if you want a copy, it would be a lot easier to simply ask me ;-) Bitto for the dataI'm going to transfer between classic computers. If you really want a copy of the BAISC program I'm transfering from an HP9830 to an Acorn Cambridge, or of the documentation text file I'm transfering from an HP Integral to a PC so I an print it on the laser printer, it's going to be a lot easier just to ask me nicely... In other words, security (in the sense of others not listening in) is not an issue at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 16:42:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:42:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at May 5, 8 04:34:54 pm Message-ID: > It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial > extenders. Yes, I have, and still am, considerign those. Somebody else suggested the Xee module, I had haeard of that. But do any of them work without any flow control lines back to the host? The simple radio module (on the 433MHz band) that I looked at certainly eneded the RTS/CTS flow control or something equivalent. > > While this doesn't meeet your usual criteria for being able to repair > the device, it might be viable for you on the theory that the devices I did say that was a 'bonus' here, not required :-) > In the long cable division, there are a number of products around that > extend rs232 by using baluns at each end, and cat-5 cable for the bulk My junk box cotnains at least 2, (and I think 4) Gandalf LDS120 units. These are 'limited distance modems' or some such, they were designed to transmit data up to 9600 baud over, I think, leased lines. They are built fro mthe sort of technology I like (op-amps, LM339 comparators, maybe simple logic chips), and certianly could be used for this. A piece of 4-core telephone cable will work with these up to any distance I am likely to need. > of the run. Still commits bondage on the cat :), but works around the And that's the problem. I can tell my parents 'There's a serial cable at tripwire-height across the stairs', but I can't tell the cat that I've run run across the cat flap :-). But it may well be what I use for the moment... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 6 17:27:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:27:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <01C8AF5E.CF28BFC0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at May 6, 8 09:50:56 am Message-ID: > > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? Are cordless phones truely full-duplex, or are they more like loudspeaking phones whee a local voice input disables the speaker output? That is not a problem for voice, of course, but it is for full-duplex modems. > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link between two > modems. > > I believe Tony also has a NetCommander which would let him select which Actually I have 3 of them. One is the 16 port model (with 16 RS232 ports), the others are the fixed-configuration 6 RS232/4 Centronics models. But they do not solce the cabling problem. Nor do they have enough ports for all my classics... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 6 17:42:26 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:42:26 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 May 2008 15:23:56 -0700. <59118.64.62.206.10.1210112636.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <59118.64.62.206.10.1210112636.squirrel at ruckus.brouhaha.com>, "Eric Smith" writes: > Richard wrote: > > I'd expect the box to initiate a telnet session to the ethernet side > > A telnet session to where? It would be like a terminal server. When you type "telnet" at a unix or DOS prompt, it asks you where you what host to which you want to connect. I don't see this as any different. > How does the box get its IP address? How does any box on an ethernet network get its IP address? Nothing different here. If the box needs some sort of configuration, you'd do that through the terminal. All the other questions are answered similarly; what's being proposed here is not new -- terminal servers have been doing this for 20+ years at this point. > Obviously all these questions can be answered, but it's not clear > how to answer them such that the product "just works". In fact, > it seems to me like it's impossible to meet the "just works" > objective. There's always someone who will say it doesn't "just work". If you want to be super-anal about it you can find fault with any product, even something as simple as a toothpick. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue May 6 17:43:12 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:43:12 -0700 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: > I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I cant > seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot disk > or better yet a full set of disks. > > - jerry > > > Jerry Wright > JLC inc > g-wright at att.net > If Interactive Unix is suffiently "abandonware" at this point, I second the request for a full set of disks... I've got an old 486 doing NOTHING and it would be fun to experiment, assuming my hardware is compatible. John "has no license" Floren -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 6 17:43:23 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:43:23 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 May 2008 22:36:38 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > To be honest, I would just get a cheap x86 laptop with a USB port and > > use a USB<->RS232 dongle. > > How is this an improvement on using one of my many portable machines with > built-in serial ports (and indeed terminal emulators/kermit in ROM)? Then I don't understand; it sounds like you already have a solution. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue May 6 18:22:25 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:22:25 -0700 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As far as I know, Interactive's products are now "unsupported Sun products" since AFAIK Sun bought Interactive's assets. I wish I had kept my copy (with all the manuals and the 40 or 50 5-1/4" disks)! I don't know what Sun's policy is on unsupported products but since they are open-sourcing so many things, maybe they would consider releasing it under a hobbyist license? Mark On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 3:43 PM, John Floren wrote: > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: > > I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I cant > > seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot > disk > > or better yet a full set of disks. > > > > - jerry > > > > > > Jerry Wright > > JLC inc > > g-wright at att.net > > > > If Interactive Unix is suffiently "abandonware" at this point, I > second the request for a full set of disks... I've got an old 486 > doing NOTHING and it would be fun to experiment, assuming my hardware > is compatible. > > John "has no license" Floren > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 6 18:29:04 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 18:29:04 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <49629.64.62.206.10.1210111061.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com > References: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200805052108.m45L8EPW016306@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20080506083851.043609f0@mail.threedee.com> <49629.64.62.206.10.1210111061.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080506181644.057c6460@mail.threedee.com> At 04:57 PM 5/6/2008, Eric Smith wrote: >If I plug this hypothetical "just works" serial-to-Ethernet box onto >a serial port on an old computer, and plug the ethernet into the >switch along with my desktop computer, laptop, and wireless router, >what exactly should the box do? And what should I, as the user, do? I imagined it would work like a zillion other $40 web-configured network bridge/router devices these days. Emphasis on "bridge". Out of the box, it wakes up on a static IP. I can point a web browser at it and change the settings: at this IP, at this baud rate. I do the same to the second box: this IP, these serial settings. Maybe it converts between mismatched baud rates, too. So both devices are on the net, and they talk to each other. I connect one's serial port to one old computer, I connect the other to the other old computer's serial port. A serial port bridge, over Ethernet. They talk. One end sends a byte, it gets delivered to the other end and emitted, and vice-versa. Isn't that what Tony wants? I'm waving my hands as to whether the ends are DTE or DCE, and how much they're buffered. I'll wave my hands about how bytes are packaged to be sent in Ethernet-sized packets. I'll also wave my hands about what other useful status info the web interface might show, and I'll dodge any arguments about whether a serial interface for its configuration would be more sensible than http. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 6 18:45:01 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41259.64.62.206.10.1210117501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > All the other questions are answered similarly; what's being proposed > here is not new -- terminal servers have been doing this for 20+ years > at this point. I know, since I'm one of the software engineers that developed firmware for such products. I can't claim knowledge of what John meant by "just work", but those of us that designed the things don't consider them to just work", and neither do our customers. > If you > want to be super-anal about it you can find fault with any product, > even something as simple as a toothpick. I'm not finding fault in anything. I think John had a legitimate point that there would be a market for such a thing that "just worked", and it would be a much bigger market than the stuff that you can actually buy now. Unfortunately, I think it's impossible. Eric From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 6 20:38:47 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 20:38:47 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <41259.64.62.206.10.1210117501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com > References: <41259.64.62.206.10.1210117501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080506203159.0b1e9040@mail.threedee.com> At 06:45 PM 5/6/2008, Eric Smith wrote: >I'm not finding fault in anything. I think John had a legitimate >point that there would be a market for such a thing that "just worked", >and it would be a much bigger market than the stuff that you can >actually buy now. Unfortunately, I think it's impossible. So what's on the list of things that go wrong, or just "not right"? Hardware handshaking? Buffer overruns? Other timing issues? All perfectly plausible to me, but then I ask if the same issues aren't already present on PC USB-to-serial adapters or for that matter aren't already present in Tony's example on classic hardware. Tony's question seemed to me more about delivering a byte elsewhere on a serial port, and not about specific machine-to-machine and app-to-app compatibility quirks. - John From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 6 21:23:13 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:23:13 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <01C8AFC7.E19BDCA0@mandr71> -------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:27:13 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers > > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? Are cordless phones truely full-duplex, or are they more like loudspeaking phones whee a local voice input disables the speaker output? That is not a problem for voice, of course, but it is for full-duplex modems. > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link between two > modems. > > I believe Tony also has a NetCommander which would let him select which Actually I have 3 of them. One is the 16 port model (with 16 RS232 ports), the others are the fixed-configuration 6 RS232/4 Centronics models. But they do not solce the cabling problem. Nor do they have enough ports for all my classics... -tony -----------Reply: Well, that gives you 25 ports; how many more do ya need? At one point we had 4 computer ports feeding more than 200 terminals over a single connection. Alternately, it would be trivial to build a remotely controlled one-to-many port selector out of relays or solid state parts, and you could use the NetCommander just for the units that need baud rate conversion. Of course the NCs don't solve the cabling problem, that's why I mentioned the cordless phone. But unless you want to manually plug the desired system in every time or buy/make separate connecting links for every system, you'd need some way of concentrating the systems into one connecting link. Obviously not a solution you'd approve of, but two old laptops with RS-232 and wireless cards would easily solve the connection problem. Of course we usually prefer lengthy discussions here instead of simple solutions... mike From wdg3rd at comcast.net Tue May 6 22:25:25 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 03:25:25 +0000 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> > Message: 17 > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:03:50 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > Fred wrote: > > >> If we are going to discuss the WORST systems, surely we can't leave out > > >> the TRS80 casstte port system that RS came up with for classrooms! > > > > > > Well, don't leave us in suspense. In what way was it done badly? > > > Was it unreliable? Did it fail to meet its design objectives? > > > > > > > > > > Our school system had one, back in 1981. > > > > There was a panel that was a mux/demux to 24-ish diskless model 3s. The > > I thought the standard one was for 16 slaves to one host, but there's no > reason for that limit. Sixteen student machines to one instructor station is correct. > I seem to rememebr the same hardware could be used with Model 1s, Model 3s > and Cocos, but that the host and slaves had to e the same type of machine. The first version, the Network 1, was limited to the 500 bps data rate of the Model One interface. Model Ones could be combined with Model 3s and Model 4s, provided the users of the newer machines specified the slow cassette data rate. The Network 2 supported the 1500 bps rate of the Model 3 and 4, the Color Computer line (including the MC-10) and the Model 100/200. 3s and 4s could be mixed at will, all versions of the Color Computer line could co-exist (except the MC-10 -- although the MC-10 used the same data format as the other Color Computers, the BASIC ROM tokenized the keywords in its own unique way, so any BASIC code exchanged would be garbage). The 100 and 200 could be intermixed. I recall hearing about somebody using a Model 4 with its Mod 100 exchange utility getting that combination to work, but I never tried it myself. The Network 1 and 2 were actually rather clever devices for the era. Never gave me a bit of trouble in my classrooms except when some of the students forgot to select the slow speed on their Mod 3s (my first year as an RSCC instructor [starting 2 Nov 1980], the classroom was full of Mod 3s, except of course for the instructor's system). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net These histrionics were probably unnecessary, since there was no reason to think anybody would be watching us with more than casual interest until I made my first move to follow Buchanon's trail, in London. Still, somebody might check back this far later, and I always feel that if you're going to play a part, you might as well play it all the way, at least in public -- and it's hard to tell what's public and what isn't, these electronic days. Donald Hamilton, _The Devastators_, 1965 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 6 22:33:22 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 20:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20080506203016.B34381@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 May 2008 wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > Sixteen student machines to one instructor station is correct. > > I seem to rememebr the same hardware could be used with Model 1s, Model 3s > > and Cocos, but that the host and slaves had to e the same type of machine. Would it work 5150 to 5150 through the cassette ports? I remember after the 5150 came out, and right before the 5160 (XT) came out, that there was a cheap piece of commercial software to transfer files between 5150s through the cassette port. From technobug at comcast.net Tue May 6 22:53:22 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 20:53:22 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805061700.m46H0Mm3085375@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805061700.m46H0Mm3085375@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5E167971-777C-4A20-AD59-B0A6FE97A184@comcast.net> On Tue, 06 May 2008 07:53:52 -0500 Jules Richardson wrote: >> Jules Richardson noted: >> >>> Hmm, I've got a deep mistrust of any 'data over the mains' >>> technology, but >>> might that be an option here? I assume *most* of your systems are >>> physically >>> plugged into the mains anyway, so it'd meet the ideal requirement >>> for no extra >>> cabling. Data rates presumably not lightning fast, of course... >> >> I don't think security is of concern here unless you are extremely >> paranoid or are transferring prohibited material [...]. > > Ahh, no - on that note I meant 'mistrust' as in reliability. Running > data over > power lines always seems like the sort of thing that'd work in the > lab, but be > a little unreliable out in the real world with all sorts of 'noisy' > devices > plugged into the system. > [...] Actually the X10 home automation system is quite reliable as its longevity attests. Currently, broadband over power is being deployed in a number of test cities in the US (much to the chagrin of Hams - it tends to raise the noise floor in ham bands excessively) and the usual suspects are peddling home networking over the mains (e.g. ). To get around the noise issue, these systems use burst transmission at the zero voltage crossing point when line noise is statistically the least. As I mentioned previously, a number of folks make transceivers for this purpose. Echelon has made their entire business based on this technology used mainly in commercial applications. is a UK firm pushing the technology locally. IC transceivers are available from ST, Maxim, and SiConnect. The addition of a small micro to do the RS232, support logic, and power supply should make a useable system meeting Tony's requirements. CRC From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 6 23:41:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 21:41:20 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from Message-ID: Hi Why not use RS422/485. I've only seen this mentioned once. I used to used RS485 drivers to run serial signals all around a noisy burn-in room to control a number of systems. These are designed to drive longer distances. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1. http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 7 00:17:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 23:17:05 -0600 Subject: govliq: 480 reels of 9-track magtape NIB (Mechanicsburg, PA) Message-ID: LOT (APPROX 480)BUSINESS SOFTWARE CENTERS INC ENDURA PN 53747 BASF ELECTRONIC DATA TAPE, REEL IS 10 1/ 2" DIAMETER, OPENING 3 5/ 8" DIAMETER -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From zampala0 at yahoo.it Tue May 6 04:18:38 2008 From: zampala0 at yahoo.it (zampala) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:18:38 +0200 Subject: RM600 mainframe issues Message-ID: <4820226E.6040000@yahoo.it> Hi, I got a Siemens-Nixdorf Sinix RM600 mainframe consisting of a terminal and two cabinets, the SY53 (Zentraleinheit) and the BG54 (I/O Beisteller). For ease of transport I had to cut a 50-wire cable that was connecting the two cabinets, but now the cable has been put together again. Well, I fire it up and I see on the screen that it's going through a number of tests (cpu, memory, adapters). All is ok till it comes to the booting point. There it fails with the following complains Warning 51763 ios0/scon00 Poll fails. Command response block not valid Warning 33243 ios0/scon00 Controller initialization fails. Command response B SASH error: unable to access SASH root device ios0/sdisk000s0 /stand and it returns a limited SASH shell. Since I am assuming that the ios0/sdisk000s0 device is the hard disk on the I/O cabinet, I guessed that there was something wrong with my home-made replacement of the 50-wire cable. I power it down, go to lunch and get back to find out that, when turned on, random weird characters and symbols are displayed on the screen. It looks like that it entered a sort of editor mode, as it shows a top line in which rows and columns are counted. This top line reads ON LINE | FDXA | R=10 | C=5 | AUX=NONE After a while it hangs. I didn't touch a thing since my almost-ok first boot, I only remember to have played a bit with the console keyboard. Any ideas? shall I call the assistance number at the back of the unit? :-) thanks mirko From roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au Tue May 6 23:37:49 2008 From: roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au (Roman Szeremeta) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:37:49 +1000 Subject: hp9826 disk problems References: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <20080506203016.B34381@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000701c8affc$1b7c4ed0$0600a8c0@inspiron> Hi, Is it me or is there a problem with some of the disk images at hpmuseum.net. I am interested in the HP Basic 3.0 software disks for the 200/300 series computers. The description says that they are ss/dd images but my hp9121 wont read them. In fact it will only read a couple of the disk images described as ss/dd under software for 200/300 series. I also notice that when running teledisk 2.16 on these 'problem' disks that it is writing to both sides! The only ones that I can read are the System Test and HPL 2.0 disks both of which are also described as ss/dd. I do have a hp9133h which has a double sided floppy but since the HD has died I cant access the floppy anymore. Is there some way of jumpering the controller so that it ignores the hard disk and only reads the floppy? Alternatively could somebody send me a true ss/dd disk image of HP Basic 3.0? Roman 'Temporarily stopped roamin in the gloamin!' removethisroman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed May 7 01:58:26 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 08:58:26 +0200 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <20080507065826.285670@gmx.net> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? > > Are cordless phones truely full-duplex, or are they more like > loudspeaking phones whee a local voice input disables the speaker > output? > That is not a problem for voice, of course, but it is for full-duplex > modems. Every one I ever had in my hands was full-duplex, and we started with the analogue generation before we went to DECT. Cordless phones are fun anyway, I recently built a remote power controller for use with an analogue Siemens Megaset base station. (The base station in the ground floor, next to my father's desk, is powered all the time, "picking up" the handset energises a relay that switches on mains for our DSL modem and ethernet hub. Handset is next to my desktop PeeCee in the first floor and powered only when my desktop computer is on. The controller of course also has a local switch wired in parallel, for when my father wants to go online.) > > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link > > between two modems. I'd be very interested in such an arrangement, but I have the suspicion that there will be no convenient location in the handset's circuitry to interface a phone line to. For the DECT system anyway, there are things called "cordless phone sockets"; they aren't really cordless as they need a wall wart, but they are learned to the base station like a new handset is and present themselves to a phone/fax/modem/whatever like a phone line. Would love to get my hands on one of those one time. > > I believe Tony also has a NetCommander which would let him select which > > Actually I have 3 of them. One is the 16 port model (with 16 RS232 > ports), the others are the fixed-configuration 6 RS232/4 Centronics > models. > > But they do not solce the cabling problem. Nor do they have enough ports > for all my classics... I see it's hard to make do without permanent cabling, but the ports shouldn't be such a problem. You could just run two links into each room where you have machines (to a wall socket), then use temporary cables to connect just the machines on which you are working at the moment (either two in one room, or one in one room, one in another - therefore two links). Cheers, Arno -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 7 03:50:22 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:50:22 +0200 Subject: hp9826 disk problems References: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net><20080506203016.B34381@shell.lmi.net> <000701c8affc$1b7c4ed0$0600a8c0@inspiron> Message-ID: <006501c8b01f$6643c010$0501a8c0@xp1800> Roman if you send a email to Jon Johnston (the curator) he'll help you. It's not the first time a archive has a fault, he has a lot of software on his site and is not always able to test every archive. And it should be wise to check your drive and clean the heads. http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2704 The link is from the servive manualof the 9133/34 drives. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Szeremeta" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:37 AM Subject: hp9826 disk problems > Hi, > Is it me or is there a problem with some of the disk images at > hpmuseum.net. > I am interested in the HP Basic 3.0 software disks for the 200/300 series > computers. The description says that they are ss/dd images but my hp9121 > wont read them. In fact it will only read a couple of the disk images > described as ss/dd under software for 200/300 series. I also notice that > when running teledisk 2.16 on these 'problem' disks that it is writing to > both sides! The only ones that I can read are the System Test and HPL 2.0 > disks both of which are also described as ss/dd. > I do have a hp9133h which has a double sided floppy but since the HD has > died I cant access the floppy anymore. Is there some way of jumpering the > controller so that it ignores the hard disk and only reads the floppy? > Alternatively could somebody send me a true ss/dd disk image of HP Basic > 3.0? > > Roman > > 'Temporarily stopped roamin in the gloamin!' > removethisroman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au > > From rachael at telefisk.org Wed May 7 04:03:34 2008 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:03:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been using a pair of wireless modems for just this, they are on the somewhat slower side, maxing out at 14.4 in async mode, but atleast I dont have to roll out long serial cables, I got them for free, meant for some industrial application, seems they can run as rs485, http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=2893 . Rather expensiv if its just to be more conviendent than running cables over the floor. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed May 7 12:23:27 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:23:27 +0200 Subject: Victor Sirius : which harddisk controller ? Message-ID: <4821E58F.20309@bluewin.ch> Does anyone here know the exact type of harddiskcontroller that is used in the Sirius PC ? Jos From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed May 7 12:17:45 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 12:17:45 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4821E439.2010307@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Do true full-dupliex data-over-mains 'modems' exist? The chip I looked at > for this years ago seemed to be half-duplex only (it had a > trasnmit-enable input, and you were supposed to only have one > transmiotter enabled at a time out of all the chips on your mains > wiring).And that certainly wouldn't do here. Hmmm not sure. Although I don't really see why not; coax-based Ethernet's a "single wire" design and works OK - so I don't see why the same sort of design couldn't be done over mains wiring. >> Sneakernetting data around isn't such a problem in a classic context, though - > > That depends on how many machins you have to climb over to get between > the 2 you want to connect :-) True, I've seen your house :-) The Netcommander sounds interesting - but as you say, it requires extra cabling. If extra cabling's unavoidable, maybe something like Econet is a better bet* as you'll have less cabling in total and more capacity (but it makes the big assumptions that you have an expansion bus you can make use of on each of your machines, and that you can write protocol software) * by hanging an Econet module off the back of each machine (rather than rolling your own around the 68B54 ADLC) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 7 12:59:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 10:59:33 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805071700.m47H09Dr002766@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805071700.m47H09Dr002766@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48218B95.5236.5B805E5@cclist.sydex.com> Wireless ideas... Serial-to-Bluetooth modules exist, but they're about $50 the each for the bare module, which may be too pricey for a large configuration. Duplex-ness shouldn't be too much of an issue, given a sufficiently generous buffer. Diamond MMC had an interesting card back in the 90's that provided home networking by imposing an RF carrier on the telephone copper pair. I've still got a couple of these cards and they work pretty well. The box claims 10Mb/sec, but reality is more like 1Mb. Still faster than a modem, however. IR was pretty popular for a short time--you could even go around corners if you aimed the transceivers right. It sounds as if Tony just wants to go point-to-point, so there would be only a single transmitter on at any one time. Others have mentioned carrier-current setups, but unless they're pretty sophisticated, low-bandwidth and error-prone. I've got a copy of an article from an issue of the HP Journal back from the 80's, where a spread-spectrum carrier current system is described in detail. I wonder if one could simply buy a carton or two of old 900MHz cordless phones and jerry-rig something up? Come to think of it, I've never even tried interfacing a regular modem to a cordless phone handset. I wonder if it works... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 7 13:01:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 11:01:37 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805071700.m47H09Dr002766@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805071700.m47H09Dr002766@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48218C11.18084.5B9EA6B@cclist.sydex.com> A final wireless thought--if you're going point-to-point, why not an ultrasonic link? It's all within the same structure, right? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 15:35:48 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <4821E439.2010307@gmail.com> References: <4821E439.2010307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080507133012.A70755@shell.lmi.net> Tony would like to reduce, eliminate the wires. Bluetooth, ultrasonic, FM, would all work. If you can stand hearing 1070Hz, 1270Hz, 2025Hz, and 2225Hz tones, and you're not making too much noise, howzbout: implement Bell 103 with modems with microphones and speakers, and just skip the whole interconnecting wire business. You'll be able to keep track of the transfers, and prob'ly even have fewer people coming around to waste your time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 15:43:17 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <48218B95.5236.5B805E5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805071700.m47H09Dr002766@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48218B95.5236.5B805E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080507134004.Y70755@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 May 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IR was pretty popular for a short time--you could even go around > corners if you aimed the transceivers right. It sounds as if Tony > just wants to go point-to-point, so there would be only a single > transmitter on at any one time. Prob'ly too many corners. But, . . . There are some cheap IR repeaters available commercially. You could mount repeaters on the ceiling, and just beam the IR upwards. Even an inductive loop ALS would work, but I'd rather not add additional magnetic fields around disk drives. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed May 7 15:45:32 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 16:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080507133012.A70755@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080507204532.94A442EE6B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Fred Cisin > > Tony would like to reduce, eliminate the wires. Bluetooth, ultrasonic, > FM, would all work. > > > If you can stand hearing 1070Hz, 1270Hz, 2025Hz, and 2225Hz tones, > and you're not making too much noise, > howzbout: implement Bell 103 with modems with microphones and speakers, > and just skip the whole interconnecting wire business. You'll be able to > keep track of the transfers, and prob'ly even have fewer people coming > around to waste your time. I think the cat(s) would take issue with that and proceed to destroy the cause of said tones... Cheers, Bryan From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed May 7 15:47:07 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:47:07 -0700 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: > I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I cant > seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot disk > or better yet a full set of disks. > > - jerry I have a copy of Interactive Unix Ver 2.2 on 5 1/4 inch floppies. 21 disks including boot. I also have another copy that I can't find at the moment but might be Ver 3... I have the books for version 3.2. >From what I can see it looks like Ver 2 was for 286s and Ver 3 was for 386s. I have never used these disks or Interactive Unix. Would either of these help, Jerry. What would be the best way to turn these into files to send over the email or the internet? Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed May 7 15:47:54 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:47:54 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080507133012.A70755@shell.lmi.net> References: <4821E439.2010307@gmail.com> <20080507133012.A70755@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220805071347r2fe2c7b5lb3d5010948d17940@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you can stand hearing 1070Hz, 1270Hz, 2025Hz, and 2225Hz tones, > and you're not making too much noise, > howzbout: implement Bell 103 with modems with microphones and speakers, > and just skip the whole interconnecting wire business. You'll be able to > keep track of the transfers, and prob'ly even have fewer people coming > around to waste your time. That idea is AWESOME. I just want to put that out there :) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 7 15:52:25 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:52:25 +0200 Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals References: Message-ID: <003501c8b084$41baec40$0501a8c0@xp1800> But maybe it's just out of consideration for the not over rated PSU. So it has not to deal with current peaks from starting and stopping the floppy drive ;-) I think there was a reason may EMI or something like that.. Or it's just a engineering artifact they forgot to fix. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:47 PM Subject: Re: HP Integral PC Manuals >> >> Yes V1.0.0 I think the same it's just designed to keep the motors >> running. >> Maybe to get the media running before the heads touch it, to prevent >> start/stop spots ? > > Of course this is one of the few 3.5" drives that has a head-load > solenoid (and yes, that is controlled 'correctly'). So at least disk/head > wear will be fairly minimal. It is curious that having provided a > motor-control signal then essentially it's not used (min you, it appears > that the Intgral hardware would support 2 floppy drives, and that > facility, AFAIK, was never used) > > I am not sure what the Sony drive spec says about starting/stopping the > spindle motor with the heads loaded. I've not heard it's a problem in > other (floppy) drives, though. > >> Well the ability to make errors is what makes us human ;-) >> The hartbeat should it be some kind of watchdog signal or a sync for >> realtime processing ? > > It usspect it's the task-switch signal, etc. When the machine is 'idle' > (no I/O going on), IR1 is the only interrupt line to be doing anything. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:00:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:00:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <01C8AFC7.E19BDCA0@mandr71> from "M H Stein" at May 6, 8 10:23:13 pm Message-ID: > > I believe Tony also has a NetCommander which would let him select which > > Actually I have 3 of them. One is the 16 port model (with 16 RS232 > ports), the others are the fixed-configuration 6 RS232/4 Centronics models. > > But they do not solce the cabling problem. Nor do they have enough ports > for all my classics... > > -----------Reply: > Well, that gives you 25 ports; how many more do ya need? At one point we Well, only given that I only need one connection at a time. If, as I suspect, you're suggesting using a pair of ports to link a pair of NetCommanders (1 port on each), you then can't have multiple connections between machines on the 2 NCs. I also have a JNT PAD (!). And although this was normally used as a packet assembler/disassembler to link terminals (and machines) to an X25 network, I believe it can be configured to act as a smart switch. 16 ports, As regards haow many ports I _need_, I suspect i've got a total of around 10 times that number (250-ish) RS232 ports on all my machines. And probably over 100 machines with one or more RS232 ports that I might want to interconnect. Of course I can't possibly have them all set up at the same time, > had 4 computer ports feeding more than 200 terminals over a single connection. > > Alternately, it would be trivial to build a remotely controlled one-to-many port One-to-many is easy, many-to-many is slightly harder, and the latter is what I would need. I am not looking to interconenct one of my classics to this PC, I am looking to interconnect any pair of my classics > selector out of relays or solid state parts, and you could use the NetCommander > just for the units that need baud rate conversion. > > Of course the NCs don't solve the cabling problem, that's why I mentioned the And cabling is what I am primarily interested in. > cordless phone. But unless you want to manually plug the desired system in > every time or buy/make separate connecting links for every system, you'd Given that I can't have lal the machines et up at the same time, there has to be some plugging/unplugging going on. Doing that is not a problem (nor do I object ot wiring up adapters for each of my machines to get the RxD and TxD on a consistent pair of pins in all cases, to loop back handshakes, and so on). > need some way of concentrating the systems into one connecting link. Ture enough. > > Obviously not a solution you'd approve of, but two old laptops with RS-232 Round here 'old laptops' are things like Epson HX20s, PX4s, PX8s, Tandy Model 100s, Olivetti M10s, HP110s, HP110+s and so on. Rahter _too_ old for this :-) > and wireless cards would easily solve the connection problem. Of course > we usually prefer lengthy discussions here instead of simple solutions... But is it a simple solution? I suspect I would find it quicker and easier to make a PSU and RS232 buffers for an Xbee module (and hope I can either ignore hardware handshaking or use it with machines that support it [1]) than to figure out how to configure the software on oen of said laptops. [1] Which, alas, excludes my DEC PDP8 and PDP11 machines :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:06:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> from "wdg3rd@comcast.net" at May 7, 8 03:25:25 am Message-ID: > > > There was a panel that was a mux/demux to 24-ish diskless model 3s. The > > > > I thought the standard one was for 16 slaves to one host, but there's no > > reason for that limit. > > Sixteen student machines to one instructor station is correct. > > > I seem to rememebr the same hardware could be used with Model 1s, Model 3s > > and Cocos, but that the host and slaves had to e the same type of machine. > > The first version, the Network 1, was limited to the 500 bps data rate > of the Model One interface. Model Ones could be combined with Model 3s > and Model 4s, provided the users of the newer machines specified the > slow cassette data rate. The Network 2 supported the 1500 bps rate of > the Model 3 and 4, the Color Computer line (including the MC-10) and the > Model 100/200. 3s and 4s could be mixed at will, all versions of the > Color Computer line could co-exist (except the MC-10 -- although the > MC-10 used the same data format as the other Color Computers, the BASIC Presumably it also would have worked with the UK Dragon computer, with the same restrictions (that had the same cassette hardware as a CoCo, but the tokens were different, for what reason %deity only knows..) > ROM tokenized the keywords in its own unique way, so any BASIC code > exchanged would be garbage). The 100 and 200 could be intermixed. I > recall hearing about somebody using a Model 4 with its Mod100 exchange > utility getting that combination to work, but I never tried it myself. I can see no reason why it wouldn't work. As far as I know, the Network 1 and 2 units were essentially amplifiers to boost the cassette output of one machine and make it suitable to feed into the cassette input of another. They did nothing with the actual data. I would be interested in seeing schematics/service manuals for these units, I don;'t suppose they exist anywhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:07:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:07:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080506203016.B34381@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 6, 8 08:33:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 7 May 2008 wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > > Sixteen student machines to one instructor station is correct. > > > I seem to rememebr the same hardware could be used with Model 1s, Model 3s > > > and Cocos, but that the host and slaves had to e the same type of machine. > > Would it work 5150 to 5150 through the cassette ports? I've (ovisouly) never tried it, but I suspect it would. You'd probably have to set the cassette output jumper on the motherboarf to the AUX (as opposed to MIC) postion :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 15:44:19 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 21:44:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 6, 8 04:43:23 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > To be honest, I would just get a cheap x86 laptop with a USB port and > > > use a USB<->RS232 dongle. > > > > How is this an improvement on using one of my many portable machines with > > built-in serial ports (and indeed terminal emulators/kermit in ROM)? > > Then I don't understand; it sounds like you already have a solution. No, I haev a workaround. It's not a direct connection between the 2 machines, it's a sort of sneakernet[1] where I have to plug the palmtop into one of the mahcines, transfer the file to it, then carry it to the other machine nad transfer the file across to that machine. I was asking if anyone had suggestions for a direct connection method, mainly for those times ehen I want to do something other than transfer a file. [1] A term that I find doubly inapproptiate. Firstly the term 'sneaker' is not used in the UK, that form of footwear are normally called 'trainers'. Secondly I don't own any such footwear... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 15:47:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 21:47:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 6, 8 11:12:37 pm Message-ID: [Xbee modules] > I've not managed to look at the manuals for them yet, but my main worry > is that they'll require some kind of hardware flow control. Surely, since I have now read the manuals on their wesite, and from what I can gather they do use RTS/CTS flow control (as I expexted). It's not always needed, you can get by without it if there's no chance of a buffer overrun (e.g. you leave long enough gaps between the characters, maybe also if you have a low enough baud rate (and the same rate at both ends, I guess). They look interesting to experiment with (and they're cheap enough to do just thatt), but I am not (yet) convinced they're exactly what I am looking for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:11:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 6, 8 09:41:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi > Why not use RS422/485. I've only seen this mentioned once. Well, it'd be trivial to build, sure, I may even have commerical RS232-RS422 converters in my junk box. However, it involves a physical cable for the cat to get tangled up in, or somebody to trip over. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:18:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:18:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080507065826.285670@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at May 7, 8 08:58:26 am Message-ID: > Every one I ever had in my hands was full-duplex, and we started with the= Right. [...] > > > > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link=20 > > > between two modems. > > I'd be very interested in such an arrangement, but I have the suspicion t= > hat there will be no convenient location in the handset's circuitry to in= > terface a phone line to. I suspect if you use 'classic' modems (300 baud, 1200/75, etc), then it'll e totally trivial if you can also modify the modem. After all, there are separate Tx and Rx signals inside the modem unit. > > For the DECT system anyway, there are things called "cordless phone socke= > ts"; they aren't really cordless as they need a wall wart, but they are l= > earned to the base station like a new handset is and present themselves t= Mains is not a problem , given that many of my classic computers also need it ;-) [...] > I see it's hard to make do without permanent cabling, but the ports shoul= > dn't be such a problem. You could just run two links into each room where= So I wait for my parents to go out, when they get back they see DB25 sockets on the walls of most of the rooms :-). > you have machines (to a wall socket), then use temporary cables to conne= > ct just the machines on which you are working at the moment (either two i= > n one room, or one in one room, one in another - therefore two links). If the 2 machines are next to each other, I might just run a null-modem cable between them ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:24:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:24:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <4821E439.2010307@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 7, 8 12:17:45 pm Message-ID: > > The Netcommander sounds interesting - but as you say, it requires extra > cabling. If extra cabling's unavoidable, maybe something like Econet is a > better bet* as you'll have less cabling in total and more capacity (but it > makes the big assumptions that you have an expansion bus you can make use of > on each of your machines, and that you can write protocol software) Neither is true in gerneral, alas. I have machines with RS232 ports that have no accessible expansion bus (the Sharp PC1350 and the HP110 are 2 I can see without getting up). I'd also love to see you write an econet program for a Philips P850 (2K owrds of core), an HP9830, etc (and yes, I do have RS232 ports for those machines). Actually, doesn't an original IBM PC have prolems keeping up with Econet? I was under the impression that the Acorn econset interface card for that machine has a 6502 on it to run the econet protocol software. > > * by hanging an Econet module off the back of each machine (rather than > rolling your own around the 68B54 ADLC) That, at least for me, would be the trivial bit. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 16:37:52 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080507204532.94A442EE6B@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080507204532.94A442EE6B@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20080507143514.L70755@shell.lmi.net> > > howzbout: implement Bell 103 with modems with microphones and speakers, On Wed, 7 May 2008, Bryan Pope wrote: > I think the cat(s) would take issue with that and proceed to destroy > the cause of said tones... When my dog hears a modem connecting and "negotiating", he tells me about it and gets a treat (my hearing is bad). He certainly wouldn't mind, why wouldn't the cats get used to it? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:38:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:38:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080507133012.A70755@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 7, 8 01:35:48 pm Message-ID: > If you can stand hearing 1070Hz, 1270Hz, 2025Hz, and 2225Hz tones, > and you're not making too much noise, I might nt be making much noise, but the fans and hard drives in my classics are hardly silent... > howzbout: implement Bell 103 with modems with microphones and speakers, > and just skip the whole interconnecting wire business. You'll be able to > keep track of the transfers, and prob'ly even have fewer people coming > around to waste your time. :-)... However, one reason to avoid wires to to avoid upsetting Pentina the cat. I think your proposed solution is likely to really other him, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 16:42:16 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:42:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral PC Manuals In-Reply-To: <003501c8b084$41baec40$0501a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 7, 8 10:52:25 pm Message-ID: > > But maybe it's just out of consideration for the not over rated PSU. > So it has not to deal with current peaks from starting and stopping the > floppy drive ;-) That PSU has no prolems with the current peaks for the printer stepper motors, or indeed, firing the thermal inkjet [1] cartridge. Or the head load solennoid and head stepper motor in that disk drive. I can't believe the startup spike of the spindle motor is a problem [1] I am told that Thinkjet was a contraction of THermal INKJET. > I think there was a reason may EMI or something like that.. The machine is very well sheilded inside. Maybe that's the reason, but it seems a litle unlikely. > Or it's just a engineering artifact they forgot to fix. That,a alas (after all, it's an HP) is the most likely reason. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 7 16:50:31 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:50:31 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <482054E0.4090605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c8b08c$60713100$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ahh, no - on that note I meant 'mistrust' as in reliability. Running > data over power lines always seems like the sort of thing that'd work > in the lab, but be > a little unreliable out in the real world with all sorts of 'noisy' > devices plugged into the system. I had to maintain an office full of those devices in London years ago. Worked reasonably well (by which I mean I didn't often have to do much, not that they were necessarily speedy!). Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1418 - Release Date: 06/05/2008 17:17 From arcarlini at iee.org Wed May 7 17:05:46 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:05:46 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c8b08e$81d56670$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, I have, and still am, considerign those. Somebody else suggested > the > Xee module, I had haeard of that. But do any of them work without any > flow control lines back to the host? The simple radio module (on the > 433MHz band) that I looked at certainly eneded the RTS/CTS flow > control > or something equivalent. If you build something yourself (which would obviously then meet the "maintainability" requirements), you could throw in some reasonable buffering. 128MB SDRAM is dirt cheap (?1 or so) and that is likely to be enough buffering for almost any classic machine. So even if your radio chip wants to pause for breath, your classic computer doesn't need to know. Basically this is a (bidirectional) print buffer with a radio welded on the end. You'll obviously need N of them, one per simultaneously active classic machine. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1418 - Release Date: 06/05/2008 17:17 From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:57:07 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 16:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: govliq: what are these things? (Richard) In-Reply-To: <200805070143.m471hWjK092935@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <676569.21186.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Here's a representative lot: > > > They have descriptions like "General Dynamics signal > processor adapter > assembly" and they all look like circuit boards with a > regular grid > and an arrangements of pins placed into the grids. The > grids are > divided into areas and sometimes color coded. Does anyone > have any > familiarity with them? There are a ton of these on govliq > right now. > > It seems to be some kind of test harness. The NSN hyperlink links to a page that identifies it as "AN/ALR-69 PECULIAR." The 4920 NSN prefix indicates that it's aircraft maintenance equipment. The AN/ALR-69 Radar Warning Receiver is used in a number of US military aircraft. If that's gold plating in the second photo from the left, these might have some significant recovered metal value. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 7 19:23:50 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080507172019.X70755@shell.lmi.net> > > howzbout: implement Bell 103 with modems with microphones and speakers, > > and just skip the whole interconnecting wire business. You'll be able to On Wed, 7 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > I might nt be making much noise, but the fans and hard drives in my > classics are hardly silent... The standard solution to SNR problems is typically, if you can't reduce the noise, then increase the signal amplitude > However, one reason to avoid wires to to avoid upsetting Pentina the cat. > I think your proposed solution is likely to really other him, alas. I don't suppose that training Pentina to carry SD cards from one machine to another is an option - cats know that they don't need to work From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 7 19:35:10 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:35:10 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <006501c8b0a3$5fb90d20$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi Andrew, Just sitting here wondering why you're not using one of the enhanced- functioning Z80 chips. Even going with the 64180 or Z180 would give you 2 UARTS and an MMU, in addtion to 2 DMA channels and a timer. Later version of this product line, will of course, give you more instructions and functionality. But the MMU can make the whole process of bootup very easy. Simply use the MMU to map the ROM out after the system's been started (you've got a 1MB physical address space). Duck soup. But if you want to stick with the "real" Z80, I've seen two methods of getting around the reset to 0000. The first is to simply force three bytes onto the system bus to perform a jump to whatever address you desire after a reset. You'll only do this once per reset, so the circuitry's pretty simple. Another way to is to start out with an EPROM mapped in and then disable it using an I/O instruction. You can leave RAM mapped in for write cycles, so that only reads will come from the ROM and writes will go directly to RAM. That way, you can set up locations starting at 0000 from a ROM. In any case, the ROM needn't be very big. I think Don Tarbell used a little bipolar 82S123 PROM. Gives you 32 bytes to do what you need, which, in Don's case was enough to get the first sector of an 8" floppy read. CP/M BIOSes for 2.2 and below are easy--they're poll-mode with clearly described inputs and outputs. About the only thing you may find confusing is the IOBYTE convention, but that's optional and fairly well documented. I've written a CP/M BIOS without resorting to assembly, doing the whole thing in machine code. It's not a big thing and you can start with the basic set of disk and console I/O routines. There are two boot entry points in the BIOS jump vector--the "cold start" entered by a jump to 0000 that (re)loads the entire CP/M BDOS and CCP, and the "warm start" that simply reloads the CCP. Disk I/O is done in 128 byte "sectors", so if your physical sectors are longer than that, you'll need to set up blocking and deblocking routines. All of this is covered in the CP/M System Alteration guide in pretty fair detail, along with a couple of samples. CP/M 3.0 or MP/M is more involved, taking advantage of bankswitching. Interrupt-driven I/O is required for MP/M--and the I/O system is more elaborate. Cheers, Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck, Sorry it took me so long to reply. There is no good reason as to why my computer is designed the way it is. I just sat down one day and decided to build a Z80 computer. I got a book at the library and did a few Google searches and the next thing you know I was soldering some parts into a prototype board on my bench. It went through several interations until I ended up with this design. The Z80 is definitely the classic although Zilog makes some much improved integrated components. Using them would have made life much easier I suppose but I wasn't aware of them when I started. I definitely wanted to avoid the hard to build technologies like SMT or hard to get parts or unique programmable parts like PALs, GALs, CPLDs, or FPGAs. Why? Just because. I could have used those components but in my estimation they take something away from the "feel" or nostalgia or some other intangible quality. I am sure Tony probably knows what I am talking about. ;-) I am not sure I do... One goal was to make the design easy and cheap so that others could make the project too and keep it affordable. That pretty much eliminated all the really modern stuff. I did consider PLCC packaging for a bit since it uses 0.1" spaced pins but decided to stick with plain old DIP chips since they are easier to work with and test. Yes, PCB density suffers terribly but there is absolutely nothing practical about this project in the least :-) Why start now? Anyway, I am nearing completion of the PCB build process. Last night I got the machine to boot CP/M from the EPROM. Now it can recognise the ROM and RAM drives as block devices. Allison was a huge help in many of the SBC design aspects and I owe her a debt of gratitude. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed May 7 20:43:11 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:02 PM -0700 3/9/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 > > That is a riot. BTW, if you think that display sucks, haven't you > ever seen a Kaypro 2000? It looks like the //c LCD display might be > slightly better! Hey Zane. I didn't know you were on the BACCL! I guess Eric just finally found the moderation queue :) I have a Kaypro 2000 but have never got around to firing it up. Or, no, wait, I think I did when I first got it but can't remember what it looked like. I guess I can go re-visit it to compare. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 7 21:56:38 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:56:38 -0700 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:43 PM -0700 5/7/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Sun, 9 Mar 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 6:02 PM -0700 3/9/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 >> >> That is a riot. BTW, if you think that display sucks, haven't you >> ever seen a Kaypro 2000? It looks like the //c LCD display might be >> slightly better! > >Hey Zane. > >I didn't know you were on the BACCL! > >I guess Eric just finally found the moderation queue :) > >I have a Kaypro 2000 but have never got around to firing it up. Or, no, >wait, I think I did when I first got it but can't remember what it looked >like. I guess I can go re-visit it to compare. I don't think I am on that list. I had a Kaypro 2000 as my main system from about mid-1987 to mid-1990. It wasn't bad for playing various Infocom games on, but I remember playing "Battletech: Crescent Hawks Revenge" and the only way I was able to find the one location was to take my game floppy and run it on a friends PS/2. The crazy thing is I used to run an early version of DesignCAD on it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 7 23:02:45 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 00:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <001d01c8b08e$81d56670$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <001d01c8b08e$81d56670$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <200805080404.AAA23922@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 128MB SDRAM is dirt cheap (?1 or so) and that is likely to be enough > buffering for almost any classic machine. Yes, but what about the logic necessary to drive it, refresh it, etc? I certainly know *I* have no idea what is required, and doubt what's in my TTL drawers would do the trick. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 7 06:38:38 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Floren wrote: > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: >> I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I cant >> seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot disk >> or better yet a full set of disks. I have what I _think_ is a full set of 3.5" diskettes: Interactive X11 Version 2.0 Runtime System: System and Servers 1-4 Clients 1-4 Display Servers I & II Easy Windows Version 2.0 Motif Window Manager V1.1.1 Contributed Software 1-3 Never even tried to read these, much less install them. For all I know, none of these are bootable and require a missing install disk. Steve -- From les at frii.com Wed May 7 12:13:22 2008 From: les at frii.com (les at frii.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:13:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: communication between old computers In-Reply-To: <200805071701.m47H12qU002812@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805071701.m47H12qU002812@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3740.72.16.194.2.1210180402.squirrel@users.frii.com> >If I plug this hypothetical "just works" serial-to-Ethernet box onto >a serial port on an old computer, and plug the ethernet into the >switch along with my desktop computer, laptop, and wireless router, >what exactly should the box do? And what should I, as the user, do? RCPMs used a version of XMODEM which worked over the same port as the console. You would tpye xmodem s/r (send or recieve) and a file name. XMODEM would then use the console port to upload and download the file. You would need a xmodem version for the pc which would support a common protocol. From mknoth at earthlink.net Wed May 7 11:29:11 2008 From: mknoth at earthlink.net (Matthias Knoth) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:29:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Zilog Zeus Message-ID: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello, does anybody have information/source code/anything about the Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate running on a Z8001 16bit CPU. I'm looking for more infos on that. Thanks, Matt From jeffj at panix.com Wed May 7 15:22:31 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 16:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805071701.m47H12qV002812@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805071701.m47H12qV002812@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'm slow to enter the discussion because I'm still busy sorting my z80 parts and single board systems instead of enjoying them :-( I'm of 2 minds regarding the Z80: The "classic" vs. the "embedded" mind-set. The embedded solution: I have a Zilog 50 MHz eZ80 development board with more built-in features that I may ever use: ethernet, InfraRed, a LOT of flash and static RAM. My frustration is the lack of support and community activity despite some high profile contests using the board. A clever fellow made an expansion board that adds 2 compact flash slots so it runs CP/M really fast! That appeals to me since it allows it to run stand-alone even for editing, storing and compiling applications. And there's still the programming/debugging pod for using a host system to debug the system should it require external assistance. Back to the original query: the Zilog ez80 board may be appealing because - it's fast (50MHz) and has a lot built in: MMU, RAM, flash ROM, serial and ethernet ports. - allows much more powerful tools on the host system for source control, compilers, debugging via the pod. - others are using it too The classic side: My first "at home" computer was a Servo-8 single board computer (6 MHz Z80B, 64k ram, 2 serial ports, parallel port, SASI port). I chose that over the 4 MHz Z80A Ampro Littleboard. It cost about $500 (with CP/M and schematics) so I was really hesitant to interface it to my own things until I had some experience with cheaper Z80 systems (particularly since all the parts were soldered in!) Long long ago I breadboarded a 4 MHz z80a with 10K static RAM (intending to use battery backup). I originally intended to use a front panel of LEDs and toggle switches (inspired by the Altair). I gave that up while wiring up all the switches, and instead used a Timex Sinclair 1000 as the front panel (hey, a keyboard and display!) to the dual-port static RAM. (the Timex is a complete Z80 system with just 4 chips: z80 CPU, ROM, RAM and Programmable Logic Array for the rest). I still want to use discrete Z80 chips because - I have a logic analyzer to watch it run (I've disassembled some embedded z80 terminals using it) - I like the way the Z80 family chips interface so directly, even for vectored interrupt mode. - I still want to explore "clever" tricks for memory management such as . using the "M" line to differentiate instruction from data reads . implementing true "cycle stealing" (access to memory not currently active by the CPU). I salvaged many z80 based devices (terminals, modems, terminal servers) and pondered reverse engineering them to reprogram for my own uses. Perhaps I'm too impatient but it seemed easier to just start from scratch, or buy a single board system and work from there. I suspect I'll finally get brave enough to just interface the additional Z80 chips to the Servo-8 Z80B SBC since I like that more than the ez80 (so far). Jeffrey Jonas e-mail: jeffj at panix.com From jeffj at panix.com Wed May 7 15:56:28 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 16:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: Subject: Interconnecting classic computers > Quite often I need to transfer data between 2 machines ... > My machines vary in size from the pocket computers > up to machines that it's not practical to move. > They're scattered throughout a house. > They are, alas, not in a machine room. > Most of the machines (and all the ones I want to consider for this) > have an RS232 port, either built-in or as an option (which I have). > Most of the machines run kermit. > Or I can simply print to the RS232 port on one machine > and capture the incoming characters on the other That's great: that solves the protocol issue and it's all RS232. > So, I think the problem reduces to 'how to interconnect RS232 ports'. > let me add some constraints : > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows > (i.e. the answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). > Prefereably no cables at all. There are D-I-Y kits for that, and pre-made dongles for wireless RS232 using bluetooth or Zigbee. [I got the Circuit Cellar / Freescale Zigbee contest kit but it failed to flash to the wireless modem program that I needed for a project] A "terminal server" puts RS232 ports on ethernet, but I'm unsure if any have builtin WiFi (802.11) or are easy to use via WiFi routers/repeaters. [some are cheap on ebay: I have some but have not gotten to try them. I used some at a previous assignment]. I saw wireless USB in a catalogue, so perhaps a wireless USB to a USB-RS232 adapter might work? I'm suspicious of the USB-RS232 adapters since many are not 8 bit compatible (I learned that the hard way when one won't download to my PIC-18 development system). [and most of the USB stuff I've handled lately works under Linux] > One solution I've come up with is to use a couple of line drivers > and a long cable between them. A long cable that my parents, > or the cat, will get tangled up in :-( You're just reinvented the "short haul modem": a dongle that converts RS232 to stronger signals to travel longer wires, such as RS485 (differential signalling). BlackBox sells them for $$$: http://www.blackbox.com/Catalog/Category.aspx?cid=381,1452,1465 That's why I snagged some fiber optic RS232 adapters: boxes about the size of a pack of cigarettes that converts RS232 to fiber optic (up to 1 km). -- Jeffrey Jonas From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 7 17:28:54 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Floren wrote: > >> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: >>> I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I cant >>> seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot disk >>> or better yet a full set of disks. > > I have what I _think_ is a full set of 3.5" diskettes: > > Interactive X11 Version 2.0 > > Runtime System: > > System and Servers 1-4 > Clients 1-4 > Display Servers I & II > > Easy Windows Version 2.0 Motif Window Manager V1.1.1 > > Contributed Software 1-3 > > Never even tried to read these, much less install them. For all I know, none > of these are bootable and require a missing install disk. Quick followup: None of these seem bootable. There must be an installation diskette that's missing. If anyone comes up with one, would appreciate an image. Steve -- From roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au Wed May 7 23:09:22 2008 From: roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au (Roman Szeremeta) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:09:22 +1000 Subject: hp9826 disk problems References: <050720080325.16275.48212125000DFBBC00003F9322069984990B9DCC090B99@comcast.net><20080506203016.B34381@shell.lmi.net><000701c8affc$1b7c4ed0$0600a8c0@inspiron> <006501c8b01f$6643c010$0501a8c0@xp1800> Message-ID: <000501c8b0c1$4bf938a0$0600a8c0@inspiron> Rik, The doco you referred me to was spot on! Setting the device id on the hp9133h to 9 via the device 'wheel' fixed the problem with the dodgy hard drive. This set the id of the floppy to 0 and unit id also to 0. The floppy then booted up. It was very flakey but after many tries I managed to copy all 6 of the Basic 3 disks to the Internal 5.25" floppy which seems to be very reliable. Thanks for your help. Roman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:50 PM Subject: Re: hp9826 disk problems > Roman if you send a email to Jon Johnston (the curator) he'll help you. > It's not the first time a archive has a fault, he has a lot of software on > his site and is not always able to test every archive. > And it should be wise to check your drive and clean the heads. > http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2704 > The link is from the servive manualof the 9133/34 drives. > > Rik > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roman Szeremeta" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:37 AM > Subject: hp9826 disk problems > > >> Hi, >> Is it me or is there a problem with some of the disk images at >> hpmuseum.net. >> I am interested in the HP Basic 3.0 software disks for the 200/300 series >> computers. The description says that they are ss/dd images but my hp9121 >> wont read them. In fact it will only read a couple of the disk images >> described as ss/dd under software for 200/300 series. I also notice that >> when running teledisk 2.16 on these 'problem' disks that it is writing to >> both sides! The only ones that I can read are the System Test and HPL 2.0 >> disks both of which are also described as ss/dd. >> I do have a hp9133h which has a double sided floppy but since the HD has >> died I cant access the floppy anymore. Is there some way of jumpering the >> controller so that it ignores the hard disk and only reads the floppy? >> Alternatively could somebody send me a true ss/dd disk image of HP Basic >> 3.0? >> >> Roman >> >> 'Temporarily stopped roamin in the gloamin!' >> removethisroman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au >> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 8 01:04:00 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 02:04:00 -0400 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On May 7, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Matthias Knoth wrote: > does anybody have information/source code/anything about the > Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate running > on a Z8001 16bit CPU. I'm looking for more infos on that. I ran a Zilog System 8000 running Zeus daily for quite a while back in the late 1980s. I have to say I liked it quite a bit. It was a long time ago and my memory is pretty fuzzy...but what info are you looking for, specifically? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu May 8 01:05:24 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:05:24 -0700 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I'd love to hear what people have as well... I remember "porting" an RM/COBOL system for a doctor's office from a CP/M system to ZEUS and loving the system. I've never seen any on the collector/used market and I'd love to find one. Mark On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Matthias Knoth wrote: > > Hello, > > does anybody have information/source code/anything about the > Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate running > on a Z8001 16bit CPU. I'm looking for more infos on that. > > Thanks, > Matt > From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu May 8 01:13:15 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:13:15 -0700 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If I remember correctly, there's not only an install disk that is bootable, you also need license keys that were supplied by Interactive. Mark On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 7 May 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Floren wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I > > > > cant > > > > seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot > > > > disk > > > > or better yet a full set of disks. > > > > > > > > > I have what I _think_ is a full set of 3.5" diskettes: > > > > Interactive X11 Version 2.0 > > > > Runtime System: > > > > System and Servers 1-4 > > Clients 1-4 > > Display Servers I & II > > > > Easy Windows Version 2.0 Motif Window Manager V1.1.1 > > > > Contributed Software 1-3 > > > > Never even tried to read these, much less install them. For all I know, > > none of these are bootable and require a missing install disk. > > > > Quick followup: None of these seem bootable. There must be an > installation diskette that's missing. If anyone comes up with one, would > appreciate an image. > > Steve > > > -- > From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Thu May 8 02:50:16 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:50:16 +0200 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers References: Message-ID: <004901c8b0e0$2ade3e30$0501a8c0@xp1800> You're not related in any way to a person called T. Pratched[1] If you were, you could use the Semaphore network ;-) Rik [1]Pratched, founder of the so called discworld and it's inhebitants ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:44 PM Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers >> >> >> In article , >> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >> >> > > To be honest, I would just get a cheap x86 laptop with a USB port and >> > > use a USB<->RS232 dongle. >> > >> > How is this an improvement on using one of my many portable machines >> > with >> > built-in serial ports (and indeed terminal emulators/kermit in ROM)? >> >> Then I don't understand; it sounds like you already have a solution. > > No, I haev a workaround. It's not a direct connection between the 2 > machines, it's a sort of sneakernet[1] where I have to plug the palmtop > into one of the mahcines, transfer the file to it, then carry it to the > other machine nad transfer the file across to that machine. > > I was asking if anyone had suggestions for a direct connection method, > mainly for those times ehen I want to do something other than transfer a > file. > > [1] A term that I find doubly inapproptiate. Firstly the term 'sneaker' > is not used in the UK, that form of footwear are normally called > 'trainers'. Secondly I don't own any such footwear... > > -tony > > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu May 8 02:52:56 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:52:56 +0200 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <20080508075256.262100@gmx.net> bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) wrote: > > If you can stand hearing 1070Hz, 1270Hz, 2025Hz, and 2225Hz tones, > > and you're not making too much noise, howzbout: implement Bell 103 > > with modems with microphones and speakers, and just skip the whole > > interconnecting wire business (...) > > I think the cat(s) would take issue with that and proceed to destroy > the cause of said tones... That would probably be an issue even with the ultrasonic setup, ISTR that there were "cat chasers" in the market which issued ultrasound when something entered the detection area of an IR sensor to prevent the fuzzball from going in places where it shouldn't (e.g. near expensive furniture). ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link=20 > > > between two modems. > > > > I'd be very interested in such an arrangement, but I have the > > suspicion that there will be no convenient location in the handset's > > circuitry to interface a phone line to. > > I suspect if you use 'classic' modems (300 baud, 1200/75, etc), then > it'll e totally trivial if you can also modify the modem. After all, > there are separate Tx and Rx signals inside the modem unit. Yes, but what about the levels? Phone line vs. capsule mic/handset speaker? > > For the DECT system anyway, there are things called "cordless phone > > sockets"; they aren't really cordless as they need a wall wart, but > > they are learned to the base station like a new handset is and present > > Mains is not a problem , given that many of my classic computers also > need it ;-) First of all sorry, I learnt that the correct term is "cordless phone jack". Okay, the whole connection setup would look like that: Comp1 === Modem --- CTJ ))) DECT Base ))) CTJ --- Modem === Comp2. === is RS232, --- is phone line, ))) is DECT transmission. I don't know if that fits your needs, as the modems will probably require some handshaking and they must be used to "dial" the connection (like from one line of a PBX to another). The cordless telephone jacks for the Gigaset DECT system are called "Gigaset 1000 TAE" (or, relabeled: "T-Sinus STA") in Germany, but those have the German TAE-style phone jack. Searching for "DECT cordless telephone jack" should bring up some hits. Beware that some types seem to be trying to be too smart already, I read a manual for a system by TIPTEL where you have to set a switch for fax/modem operation on the telephone jack and the thing emits some sort of negotiation burst ("a short hissing noise") upon pickup when in this mode. Depending on the type, your modem may even need to generate a flash or ground flash signal to put the CTJ into internal dialling mode (don't seize the line at the base station, but ring up another CTJ/handset). With the Gigaset/T-Sinus part you make the distinction by dialling either 0 for external or 9 for internal before the number. > > I see it's hard to make do without permanent cabling, but the ports > > shouldn't be such a problem. You could just run two links into each > > room where > > So I wait for my parents to go out, when they get back they see DB25 > sockets on the walls of most of the rooms :-). Asking beforehand helps a lot I would think ;) At our house, I use every chance when wiring is touched to bring Cat5, RG58 and 2-4 pairs of undedicated copper to pretty much every room - the coax for 10b2 or CCTV, the copper for RS-232, audio, IR-remote-by-proxy, phone or whatever future needs arise. > If the 2 machines are next to each other, I might just run a null-modem > cable between them ;-) I was well aware of that option :) but two links would, for example, enable you to connect two machines which are in the same room, but need protocol analysis or conversion between them done by a third device in a second room. Cheers, Arno -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 8 02:55:59 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 00:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <004901c8b0e0$2ade3e30$0501a8c0@xp1800> References: <004901c8b0e0$2ade3e30$0501a8c0@xp1800> Message-ID: <20080508005501.X96986@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 May 2008, Rik wrote: > You're not related in any way to a person called T. Pratched[1] > If you were, you could use the Semaphore network ;-) > > Rik > > [1]Pratched, founder of the so called discworld and it's inhebitants ... except that it is spelled Terry Pratchett. From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Thu May 8 03:04:12 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:04:12 +0200 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers References: <004901c8b0e0$2ade3e30$0501a8c0@xp1800> <20080508005501.X96986@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <008201c8b0e2$1a73e700$0501a8c0@xp1800> Ough, your right ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers > On Thu, 8 May 2008, Rik wrote: > >> You're not related in any way to a person called T. Pratched[1] >> If you were, you could use the Semaphore network ;-) >> >> Rik >> >> [1]Pratched, founder of the so called discworld and it's inhebitants > > > ... except that it is spelled Terry Pratchett. > > > From engel at multicores.org Thu May 8 03:10:29 2008 From: engel at multicores.org (Michael Engel) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:10:29 +0200 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4822B575.7000403@multicores.org> Hi, Matthias Knoth wrote: > does anybody have information/source code/anything about the > Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate running > on a Z8001 16bit CPU. I'm looking for more infos on that. In the former GDR, the EAW P8000, a machine based on a modified Unix System III/Zeus, was built. It uses a Zilog Z8001 or the replicated GDR version UA8001. You can find quite a bit of information (including circuit diagrams and parts of the kernel source) on that machine at http://www.pofo.de/P8000/ -- Michael From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu May 8 06:44:58 2008 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 07:44:58 -0400 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210247098.7578.11.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 23:13 -0700, Mark Davidson wrote: > If I remember correctly, there's not only an install disk that is bootable, > you also need license keys that were supplied by Interactive. IIRC, that was only for the multi-user extensions, You could install a 1-2 user version w/ out typing in keys/serial numbers. Also IIRC, if you do have the multi-user extensions (and keys), remember, once you install the MU disk, it modifies the original so its now keyed to the serial you used. Interactive Unix on a 486DX2/66 w/ 16Mb of RAM, those were the days....... David PS: No, alas, I figure its _highly_ unlikely that I still have my pile of floppies anywhere, I'm going to guess the 'basement monster' ate them sometime in the last 10-15yrs. PPS: I also think there were more disks to the collection, however, I'm also thinking the version of Interactive I remember was 3.(something). > > Mark > > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 May 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > > On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Floren wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and I > > > > > cant > > > > > seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a boot > > > > > disk > > > > > or better yet a full set of disks. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have what I _think_ is a full set of 3.5" diskettes: > > > > > > Interactive X11 Version 2.0 > > > > > > Runtime System: > > > > > > System and Servers 1-4 > > > Clients 1-4 > > > Display Servers I & II > > > > > > Easy Windows Version 2.0 Motif Window Manager V1.1.1 > > > > > > Contributed Software 1-3 > > > > > > Never even tried to read these, much less install them. For all I know, > > > none of these are bootable and require a missing install disk. > > > > > > > Quick followup: None of these seem bootable. There must be an > > installation diskette that's missing. If anyone comes up with one, would > > appreciate an image. > > > > Steve > > > > > > -- > > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu May 8 09:00:03 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:00:03 -0400 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... Message-ID: <4822CF23020000370002A961@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> At 6:02 PM -0700 3/9/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: >http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 That's not bad at all compared to some of the stuff I've bought over Ebay. I've been pretty disappointed at some of the 50 or 70 pound lab instruments that look to be in perfect pristine condition before they're shipped to me - but arrived in way way too little packaging and with all the corners bashed in and knobs broken off by the time they get to me. Usually I'm so sad about the whole destruction of what was just a few days before a very nice example of 50-year-old technology that I can't even bring myself to leave negative feedback. What's the point, the seller won't learn, and history's been lost in any event. I'm even sad that I participated in the destruction (although I make it very very clear to the seller what I think he ought to do in shipping, usually the seller just takes it to the "UPS Store" and let them put it in a lightweight carboard box with some peanuts.) I'm left not chuckling but pretty depressed. Tim. From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 8 09:38:02 2008 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 07:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: <4822CF23020000370002A961@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <142532.86927.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/8/08, Tim Shoppa wrote: > That's not bad at all compared to some of the stuff > I've bought over Ebay. I've been pretty > disappointed > at some of the 50 or 70 pound lab instruments that look > to be in perfect pristine condition before they're > shipped My business makes and sells a 70lb medical device that when packaged correctly is around 20"x20"x20", so it's quite big and cumbersome. We've seen some truly horrible packaging when units are returned to us from the field including pillows, bits of upholstery foam and old rags. Peanuts are the worst though and I am constantly tempted to levy a 'recycling' charge to anyone who ships to me using peanuts. Frankly, after analyzing shipping methods and the state of packages sent out and returned, we no longer ship outbound units ground apart from in-state or adjacent states. The handling is just too unreliable. -Dave From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 8 09:41:07 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:41:07 -0300 Subject: govliq: what are these things? References: Message-ID: <00b401c8b119$94359f20$0102a8c0@portajara> > Here's a representative lot: > > They have descriptions like "General Dynamics signal processor adapter > assembly" and they all look like circuit boards with a regular grid > and an arrangements of pins placed into the grids. The grids are > divided into areas and sometimes color coded. Does anyone have any > familiarity with them? There are a ton of these on govliq right now. > It seems to be some kind of test harness. Yes, these are (very valuable) pogo pins. These are pins with a coil, when you put a board on top of them, they fit the height of the board. It is made for testing, a very nice setup. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 8 10:04:16 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:04:16 -0500 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: <142532.86927.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <142532.86927.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48231670.5010909@mdrconsult.com> David Comley wrote: > --- On Thu, 5/8/08, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >> That's not bad at all compared to some of the stuff >> I've bought over Ebay. I've been pretty >> disappointed >> at some of the 50 or 70 pound lab instruments that look >> to be in perfect pristine condition before they're >> shipped > > My business makes and sells a 70lb medical device that when packaged correctly is around 20"x20"x20", so it's quite big and cumbersome. We've seen some truly horrible packaging when units are returned to us from the field including pillows, bits of upholstery foam and old rags. Peanuts are the worst though and I am constantly tempted to levy a 'recycling' charge to anyone who ships to me using peanuts. > > Frankly, after analyzing shipping methods and the state of packages sent out and returned, we no longer ship outbound units ground apart from in-state or adjacent states. The handling is just too unreliable. I've come to the point that if a piece of equipment weighs more than 40 pounds and is less robust than a motor block, it needs to be in a crate on a pallet before it leaves my sight. If it has a CRT in it, there's just no way to guarantee safe delivery, outside a rigid crate with several inches of shaped foam. I actually got into the training business doing setup and teardown of IBM's traveling AIX classrooms.** IBM used mostly 6091-19 displays, a monstrous 19-inch Trinitron weighing 70+ pounds, and they lost very few of them to shipping damage. Why? The display is maybe 22" x 20" x 24", and they shipped in individual 36" cube cartons with injected foam bracing. Having seen what happens to monitors in shipping, I'm convinced that really wasn't the overkill I thought it was at the time. ** Sunday I'd unbox systems, displays & peripherals, hook 'em up, turn 'em on, log in, and play Ping-Thy-Neighbor, then on Saturday I'd reverse that and slap a shipping label on it all for the next site. Doc From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 8 10:42:59 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <48231670.5010909@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > --- On Thu, 5/8/08, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >> That's not bad at all compared to some of the stuff >> I've bought over Ebay. I've been pretty >> disappointed >> at some of the 50 or 70 pound lab instruments that look >> to be in perfect pristine condition before they're >> shipped A couple years ago, I bought a Heath/Zenith Z-19 terminal from eBay. I was in my house one day, and heard a loud >WHAM!< from the front door. Investigating, I found a large cardboard box on the porch, and a mark in the dust on the door where the box had hit it. They must have thrown the box to get it to hit the door like that, and make that much noise. The box was a thick walled computer monitor box, originally from a 17" ViewSonic. Inside, the terminal was very well packaged, with that stiff form-fitting instant foam-in-a-bag stuff (no, I don't know what it's called...) The terminal was intact externally, however some of the heavier parts had broken free inside. After a bit of cleaning, it worked fine. I still need to glue some of those internal mounting posts back on... With the treatment that UPS seems to give it's packages, I'm amazed that any gear ever arrives functional! On a side note, I once worked someplace where we dealt with computer equipment coming off lease. We basically handled the recovery and resale of it. We would ship out empty boxes full of packing material, complete with shipping labels for the return shipment. Customers would receive the box, pack the equipment with the supplied foam, and return it. Simple, right? For computer monitors, we shipped out large 20x20x20 boxes. Inside was enough foam packing material to fill the box - without the monitor inside. It was resiliant, soft foam, in chunks and sheete. Probably not the best packing material in the world, but decent. I think maybe 75% of the monitors were not useable by the time they got back to us. In most cases, they were just poorly packed. Which doesn't seem possible considering we supplied plenty of material to pack them in. Some arrived with the monitor simply tossed into the box, with no effort made to put the packing material around it. (Screen up, shoved in). Others came back with almost no packing material at all - even though the box was full when it left. Other boxes arrived with the monitor, screen against the bottom of the box, foam thrown on top of it. Shattered monitor housings, broken picture tubes, we got it all. The ones that survived were packed properly - monitor wrapped in the supplied plastic bag, with foam on all sides, wedged securely into the box with the monitor in the center. Also, with companies that were returning a lot of equipment, we would send individual boxes for everything - even laptops. Laptop boxes were smaller, sturdier, and included plenty of foam as well. Since the machines were being returned with their carrying case most of the time, they survived fine, regardless of packing. But, we also got things back "combined" into the monitor box or PC box. Laptops crushed by the 17" monitor they were mispackaged with. Two PC's crammed into a box intended for one, etc. No amount of instructions and supplied materials are enough for some people. -Ian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 8 10:48:39 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200805081554.LAA27747@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > On a side note, I once worked someplace where we dealt with computer > equipment coming off lease. [...send out boxes and packing, get back > wrecked hardware...] Some years back, I did a gig overseas. They had a pile of old laptops which they were giving out to anyone who wanted them because they were old ("here, take two, they're small"). I brought one back with me. The relevant part is that there was a bunch of stuff which I left with them to ship back - mostly fairly indestructible stuff like cables and such, but including some three or four more of those laptops. When that stuff arrived, it proved to have been just tossed into a box and shipped. Box not even close to full and no packing material at all. The only laptop in working shape was the one I brought back with me. (I kept the rest as parts machines....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 8 11:00:47 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:00:47 -0400 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: <200805081554.LAA27747@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200805081554.LAA27747@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <482323AF.5030504@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> On a side note, I once worked someplace where we dealt with computer >> equipment coming off lease. [...send out boxes and packing, get back >> wrecked hardware...] > > Some years back, I did a gig overseas. They had a pile of old laptops > which they were giving out to anyone who wanted them because they were > old ("here, take two, they're small"). I brought one back with me. > > The relevant part is that there was a bunch of stuff which I left with > them to ship back - mostly fairly indestructible stuff like cables and > such, but including some three or four more of those laptops. When > that stuff arrived, it proved to have been just tossed into a box and > shipped. Box not even close to full and no packing material at all. > > The only laptop in working shape was the one I brought back with me. > (I kept the rest as parts machines....) That's just plain old stupidity. Any of the shipping companies will tell you in no uncertain terms not to do that, if you would care enough to ask. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 8 11:09:05 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:09:05 -0500 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: <482323AF.5030504@gmail.com> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200805081554.LAA27747@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <482323AF.5030504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <482325A1.5090804@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > der Mouse wrote: >> The relevant part is that there was a bunch of stuff which I left with >> them to ship back - mostly fairly indestructible stuff like cables and >> such, but including some three or four more of those laptops. When >> that stuff arrived, it proved to have been just tossed into a box and >> shipped. Box not even close to full and no packing material at all. >> >> The only laptop in working shape was the one I brought back with me. >> (I kept the rest as parts machines....) > > That's just plain old stupidity. Any of the shipping companies will > tell you in no uncertain terms not to do that, if you would care enough > to ask. That's not stupidity. It's good old "I don't give a shit." Doc From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 11:18:12 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:18:12 -0600 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 07:38:02 -0700. <142532.86927.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <142532.86927.qm at web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, David Comley writes: > Peanuts are the worst though and I am constantly tempted to levy a > 'recycling' charge to anyone who ships to me us ing peanuts. This isn't the first time someone has made a slam on packing peanuts, yet I've had plenty of things sent and recieved with peanuts and had no problems. I think the key is to not just dump the peanuts into the container, but to physically compress them into the box. The flaps of the box should require some pressure to fully close around the item. If done properly, peanuts will not leave a loose void for things to wiggle around inside. I just opened some ebay purchases last night and two of them were damaged. Neither one of the damaged items used peanuts. In fact, of all the damaged items I've received off ebay, not a single one of them used peanuts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mardy at voysys.com Thu May 8 11:19:33 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:19:33 -0400 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> On May 8, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> --- On Thu, 5/8/08, Tim Shoppa > wrote: >> >> >>> That's not bad at all compared to some of the > stuff >>> I've bought over Ebay. I've been pretty >>> disappointed >>> at some of the 50 or 70 pound lab instruments > that look >>> to be in perfect pristine condition before > they're >>> shipped > > A couple years ago, I bought a Heath/Zenith Z-19 > terminal from eBay. I was in my house one day, and > heard a loud >WHAM!< from the front door. > Investigating, I found a large cardboard box on the > porch, and a mark in the dust on the door where the > box had hit it. They must have thrown the box to get > it to hit the door like that, and make that much > noise. The box was a thick walled computer monitor > box, originally from a 17" ViewSonic. Inside, the > terminal was very well packaged, with that stiff > form-fitting instant foam-in-a-bag stuff (no, I don't > know what it's called...) The terminal was intact > externally, however some of the heavier parts had > broken free inside. After a bit of cleaning, it worked > fine. I still need to glue some of those internal > mounting posts back on... > > With the treatment that UPS seems to give it's > packages, I'm amazed that any gear ever arrives > functional! > > On a side note, I once worked someplace where we dealt > with computer equipment coming off lease. We basically > handled the recovery and resale of it. We would ship > out empty boxes full of packing material, complete > with shipping labels for the return shipment. > Customers would receive the box, pack the equipment > with the supplied foam, and return it. Simple, right? > For computer monitors, we shipped out large 20x20x20 > boxes. Inside was enough foam packing material to fill > the box - without the monitor inside. It was > resiliant, soft foam, in chunks and sheete. Probably > not the best packing material in the world, but > decent. > > I think maybe 75% of the monitors were not useable by > the time they got back to us. In most cases, they were > just poorly packed. Which doesn't seem possible > considering we supplied plenty of material to pack > them in. Some arrived with the monitor simply tossed > into the box, with no effort made to put the packing > material around it. (Screen up, shoved in). Others > came back with almost no packing material at all - > even though the box was full when it left. Other boxes > arrived with the monitor, screen against the bottom of > the box, foam thrown on top of it. Shattered monitor > housings, broken picture tubes, we got it all. The > ones that survived were packed properly - monitor > wrapped in the supplied plastic bag, with foam on all > sides, wedged securely into the box with the monitor > in the center. > > Also, with companies that were returning a lot of > equipment, we would send individual boxes for > everything - even laptops. Laptop boxes were smaller, > sturdier, and included plenty of foam as well. Since > the machines were being returned with their carrying > case most of the time, they survived fine, regardless > of packing. But, we also got things back "combined" > into the monitor box or PC box. Laptops crushed by the > 17" monitor they were mispackaged with. Two PC's > crammed into a box intended for one, etc. > > No amount of instructions and supplied materials are > enough for some people. > > -Ian > How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a really nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on eBay. It set me back $2000.00. A couple of weeks later, it shows up at my doorstep via FedEx ground in a disturbingly small box. I quickly open it up to find that, other than a sheet of bubble wrap thrown on top, there was no packing at all. And as a result, the drive had taken quite a beating in transit, resulting in one of the drive doors being crushed beyond repair (http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/floppy.jpg). An irreplaceable piece of computing history destroyed because someone was too lazy to properly pack it. -Mardy From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 11:21:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:21:59 -0600 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 10:04:16 -0500. <48231670.5010909@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <48231670.5010909 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > I've come to the point that if a piece of equipment weighs more than > 40 pounds and is less robust than a motor block, it needs to be in a > crate on a pallet before it leaves my sight. If it has a CRT in it, > there's just no way to guarantee safe delivery, outside a rigid crate > with several inches of shaped foam. There are no guarantees with anything. As a collector of terminals, I gotta tell you its ridiculous to want to put every terminal onto a pallet! It would also make shipping costs ridiculous. For an SGI Onyx2 deskside, yeah, a pallet is the way to go, but for a vt100? Totally overkill. Every time I've trusted a freight company to palletize and ship me SGI stuff from dovebid, I've gotten stuff that was damaged and in some cases not even packed the way the freight company told me they would pack it. Expandable foam, form fitted to the unit seems to work the best. After that, packing peanuts when used properly work well. Anything less than that and you're asking for stuff to arrive smashed and busted because of the weight of the CRT. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 11:25:35 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:25:35 -0600 Subject: govliq: what are these things? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 11:41:07 -0300. <00b401c8b119$94359f20$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: In article <00b401c8b119$94359f20$0102a8c0 at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > > Here's a representative lot: > > > > They have descriptions like "General Dynamics signal processor adapter > > assembly" and they all look like circuit boards with a regular grid > > and an arrangements of pins placed into the grids. The grids are > > divided into areas and sometimes color coded. Does anyone have any > > familiarity with them? There are a ton of these on govliq right now. > > It seems to be some kind of test harness. > > Yes, these are (very valuable) pogo pins. These are pins with a coil, > when you put a board on top of them, they fit the height of the board. It is > made for testing, a very nice setup. I'm having a hard time visualizing how this works. The pins are on springs so that you press the board down and the pins retract? Are the pins just mechanical support or are they electrical contacts used for testing the board? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu May 8 11:29:34 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:29:34 -0700 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) In-Reply-To: References: <142532.86927.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220805080929m5eaacbeaj639198d21123ec7c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <142532.86927.qm at web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, > David Comley writes: > >> Peanuts are the worst though and I am constantly tempted to levy a >> 'recycling' charge to anyone who ships to me us ing peanuts. > > This isn't the first time someone has made a slam on packing peanuts, > yet I've had plenty of things sent and recieved with peanuts and had > no problems. I think the key is to not just dump the peanuts into the > container, but to physically compress them into the box. The flaps of > the box should require some pressure to fully close around the item. > If done properly, peanuts will not leave a loose void for things to > wiggle around inside. > > I just opened some ebay purchases last night and two of them were > damaged. Neither one of the damaged items used peanuts. In fact, of > all the damaged items I've received off ebay, not a single one of them > used peanuts. The problem with peanuts is not that they're bad at protecting whatever you're shipping, but that they're an utter pain in the ass to handle and dispose of. I've worked two jobs that involved receiving and unpacking lots of equipment and parts, and both were in breezy locations (one was a converted barn with the doors open, the other a house in Hawaii with the windows open at all times to provide cooling). Whenver I opened a box with peanuts, the things would leap out into the air and swirl into every corner. Everyone else at work would cuss out whoever had sent us something with peanuts, and then I'd try to dispose of them without causing too much of a mess. It's not pleasant. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From fryers at gmail.com Thu May 8 11:33:00 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:33:00 +0100 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> Message-ID: All, I have had pretty good experience of shipping between the Australia and the UK - as a whole. Although I did the packing. First was an Alpha in a PC case, external cdrom and external DLT drive. All arrived okay. The Alpha was in an appropriate tower box with some close enough polystyrene to keep it from moving. The DLT and cdrom were in separate boxes, surrounded by books to keep anything from moving. The boxes looked like they had been through a lot but the contents were fine. The last package was a some of books and QIC tapes. These were in a plastic crate, which in turn was placed in a large plastic bag and everything taped well closed so that there was nothing to snag. When it arrived in the UK, the plastic box had obviously been dropped or had a lot stacked on top of it - the base was shattered. The shipping company had kindly put straps around the box for me to hold it together. None of the contents received any physical damage. Oh, and I have managed to get a lead crystal jug from Heathrow to Perth International in my checked in backpack without any damage. So far I have worked on the assumption that free space / air is the enemy. Everything needs to be held into place so it can not move - ideally with something that has a bit, but not a lot of give for the more extreme impacts. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu May 8 11:55:20 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:55:20 -0400 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) Message-ID: <4822F838020000370002A9DD@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Richard writes: > This isn't the first time someone has made a slam on packing peanuts, > yet I've had plenty of things sent and recieved with peanuts and had > no problems. I think the key is to not just dump the peanuts into the > container, but to physically compress them into the box. The flaps of > the box should require some pressure to fully close around the item. > If done properly, peanuts will not leave a loose void for things to > wiggle around inside. I think your comments are perfectly valid for the sorts of things that ship well with peanuts. There's even different types of peanuts that work well for different densities of items etc. But they do not work well for dense, heavy items with protrusions that have to be protected. Foam-in-place has a real advantage in keeping the object centered in the middle of the box - compressed peanuts work sometimes but foam-in-place works all the time. And some "handcrafting" with custom wooden or cardboard corner protectors, bubble wrap of appropriate type (some times are best for lightweight items and others will stand the abuse of heavy items) cleverly applied, or even newspaper/kraft paper PROPERLY used can do a remarkable job making sure that it's not the protrusions or corners that hit the edge of the box. It's not so much the peanuts I'm opposed to, they are valuable and sometimes appropriate tools. It's the attitude that throwing a 70 pound, very dense instrument with fragile protrusions into a cardboard box with peanuts around it is the best or only thing that can be done. What's astonishing is that 80% of the time when an instrument was damaged in transit, it was packaged by the "UPS store" or equivalent. You'd think that since they're charging for their services they might actually use UPS-recommended supplies and techniques, but they don't! Tim. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 8 12:07:59 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:07:59 -0400 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805081307.59458.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 May 2008, Richard wrote: > Every time I've trusted a freight company to palletize and ship me > SGI stuff from dovebid, I've gotten stuff that was damaged and in > some cases not even packed the way the freight company told me they > would pack it. I think I've said this before, but if you care enough to bitch about something arriving broken, you should probably have done the packaging yourself, or by a trusted individual, that you personally know (and who either takes directions, or knows how to pack things). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 8 12:08:40 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:08:40 -0700 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) Message-ID: <48233398.3060907@bitsavers.org> I hope the person that invented them is burning in Hell right now. Right next to the people who think it's OK to pack something with them, and not BAG the object, so that you end up with shredded static-charged peanut bits in every inacessable crevice of the object. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 8 12:14:47 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) In-Reply-To: <48233398.3060907@bitsavers.org> References: <48233398.3060907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48233507.4080705@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, nothing is more nightmarish then having to spend an evening completely disassembling a received item to fish out all of the bits and pieces of styrofoam peanuts or shredded paper out of drive mech's, printer mech's, etc... Curt Al Kossow wrote: > I hope the person that invented them is burning in Hell right now. > > Right next to the people who think it's OK to pack something with > them, and not BAG the object, so that you end up with shredded > static-charged peanut bits in every inacessable crevice of the object. > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 8 12:31:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:31:12 -0700 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) In-Reply-To: <200805081621.m48GLh9R019495@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805081621.m48GLh9R019495@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4822D670.25989.AC46820@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:18:12 -0600 > From: Richard > This isn't the first time someone has made a slam on packing peanuts, > yet I've had plenty of things sent and recieved with peanuts and had > no problems. I think the key is to not just dump the peanuts into the > container, but to physically compress them into the box. The flaps of > the box should require some pressure to fully close around the item. > If done properly, peanuts will not leave a loose void for things to > wiggle around inside. I'll use peanuts to make a "pillow", placing them inside a sealed bag, but never for protecting big or heavy equipment. For that, I use the sheet polystyrene insulation foam sold at home-improvement stores. Above all, I've found that if enough rigid foam is used to prevent the item inside from moving, supporting it on all sides, it most often makes it to its destination without the slightest bit of damage, even through UPS ground. All bets are off, however, if the box gets run over by a forklift, or falls off the conveyor belt while the aircraft is being loaded. I've seen both. Obviously, if there's some loose item in the equipment that will flop around with mechanical shock, it's better to secure it or remove it for separate packaging. I'm not beyond unsoldering wires in order to secure something for shipping if necessary. In my experience, floppy drives, particularly 8" drives, are best shipped with a cardboard insert in place of a diskette and the door mechanism secured with a cable tie. A lot of older hard disks had shipping bolts that could be installed to keep things from moving around with mechanical shock. For the last mile, it pays to be on good terms with your regular UPS/FedEx driver. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 13:41:43 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:41:43 -0600 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 10:08:40 -0700. <48233398.3060907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <48233398.3060907 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Right next to the people who think it's OK to pack something with > them, and not BAG the object, so that you end up with shredded > static-charged peanut bits in every inacessable crevice of the object. The problems I've had with such things haven't come from peanuts but from people who think that "anything styrofoam" constitutes packing material. One terminal was shipped to me with tons of little bits of styrofoam, none of them larger than 1/8" in diameter. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vrs at msn.com Thu May 8 13:41:45 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:41:45 -0700 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) References: Message-ID: >> Peanuts are the worst though and I am constantly tempted to levy a >> 'recycling' charge to anyone who ships to me us ing peanuts. > > This isn't the first time someone has made a slam on packing peanuts, > yet I've had plenty of things sent and recieved with peanuts and had > no problems. I think the key is to not just dump the peanuts into the > container, but to physically compress them into the box. The flaps of > the box should require some pressure to fully close around the item. > If done properly, peanuts will not leave a loose void for things to > wiggle around inside. I'd bet most of your stuff weighs less than 40 pounds, then. I collect PDP-8 gear, which generally weighs close to the weight limit for a UPS (or even a Fed-Ex) package. You won't get good results with a PDP-8/e or an RK05 drive with peanuts. I've seen it attempted. Hard foam, custom shaped, is the thing to use for heavy packages. The only void should be the one just surrounding the delicate switch register switches. Heavy objects will work their way through the peanuts (generating copious evil "peanut dust") until they find the bottom edge of the package. Whereupon whichever edge of the object is on the "bottom" will be dented in. This will then be repeated with the package in a different orientation. In the new orientation it will go faster, and result in more damage, as now many of the peanuts have been disintegrated. (If you must use the evil peanuts, at least bag the object you are shipping!) Oh, and if you're going to remove the power supply, *do not* put it in the same box with the gear it came out of! It defeats the purpose of getting under the weight limit, and just results in two items bashing each other up. (Generally, the power supply for something like an 8/e is better left in. The power supply can provide structural support (there's thicker steel in the 8/e supply than in the chassis!). Also, if the chassis becomes deformed during shipping, at least the power supply will still fit in the resulting shape! (Wimpy plastic cases being a whole 'nother matter.) When your objects are pushing 100 pounds, you can also be quite certain they'll be pushed/rolled/dropped off the truck, not set down gently. (All of which is properly documented in the UPS contracts, if anyone ever read them.) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 13:44:55 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:44:55 -0600 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 12:19:33 -0400. <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> Message-ID: In article <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648 at voysys.com>, "Marden P. Marshall" writes: > How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a really > nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on eBay. It set > me back $2000.00. A couple of weeks later, it shows up at my doorstep > via FedEx ground in a disturbingly small box. I quickly open it up to > find that, other than a sheet of bubble wrap thrown on top, there was > no packing at all. And as a result, the drive had taken quite a > beating in transit, resulting in one of the drive doors being crushed > beyond repair (http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/floppy.jpg). An > irreplaceable piece of computing history destroyed because someone was > too lazy to properly pack it. This is why I always discuss shipping/packing methods with the seller *before* they get my money. If they don't answer my questions (only happenned once on a 10 dollar QVT-101 terminal), then I don't pay. Usually the discussion results in a dialog that either convinces me they know what they are doing enough to risk having them pack it or me telling them to take it to a service bureau for packing and shipping. What good is saving me $25 on shipping if it arrives smashes? Nothing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 13:47:09 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:47:09 -0600 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 13:07:59 -0400. <200805081307.59458.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200805081307.59458.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Thursday 08 May 2008, Richard wrote: > > Every time I've trusted a freight company to palletize and ship me > > SGI stuff from dovebid, I've gotten stuff that was damaged and in > > some cases not even packed the way the freight company told me they > > would pack it. > > I think I've said this before, but if you care enough to bitch about > something arriving broken, you should probably have done the packaging > yourself, or by a trusted individual, that you personally know (and who > either takes directions, or knows how to pack things). Give me a break. Its simply not feasible to fly 2,000 miles (one way, 4K round trip) in order to pack up some SGI workstation boxes to my satisfaction. This is why I talk with the shipping company and ask them about how they will pack it and so-on. Of course, it does me no good if they just flat out lie to my face. The only shipping company that can be trusted so far is Craters & Freighters. And gee, they are a company that was founded to handle the needs of shipping fragile art and electronics. What a surprise! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 13:49:09 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:49:09 -0600 Subject: Peanuts (was: Prepare to chuckle... ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 11:41:45 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Vincent Slyngstad" writes: > >> Peanuts are the worst though and I am constantly tempted to levy a > >> 'recycling' charge to anyone who ships to me us ing peanuts. > > > > This isn't the first time someone has made a slam on packing peanuts, > > yet I've had plenty of things sent and recieved with peanuts and had > > no problems. I think the key is to not just dump the peanuts into the > > container, but to physically compress them into the box. The flaps of > > the box should require some pressure to fully close around the item. > > If done properly, peanuts will not leave a loose void for things to > > wiggle around inside. > > I'd bet most of your stuff weighs less than 40 pounds, then. They are terminals. They vary in weight up to 75 lbs. > I collect PDP-8 gear, which generally weighs close to the weight limit > for a UPS (or even a Fed-Ex) package. You won't get good results with > a PDP-8/e or an RK05 drive with peanuts. I've seen it attempted. Hard > foam, custom shaped, is the thing to use for heavy packages. The only > void should be the one just surrounding the delicate switch register > switches. Yeah, I'm not buying this sort of stuff that way, although I did buy a dual RX01 set of floppy drives and it was packed in peanuts and arrived just fine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu May 8 14:07:19 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NCR Tower... yes, I used to work for a company that had several of those for running RM/COBOL. Interesting little machines. I *think* they also had a special OS just for RM work. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. Mark On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > From: Matthias Knoth > >> does anybody have information/source code/anything >> about the Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate >> running on a Z8001 16bit CPU >> > > Gaaah, it's coming back to haunt me! > The NJ Computer Museum has a Zilog System 8000 model 21 > what's probably running that! > One of my AT&T IS consulting assignments was running URTS > (Unix Regression Test Suite) on the SVR3 port > and examining the source code. > I'm unsure I have any of that on tape or printouts :-( > The comments were amusing such as the Z8000 CPU > forcing the Z80's "RETI" instruction > on the peripheral bus to reset the Z80 peripherals chips > interrupt daisy chain. The comments were something like > ld foo ; now watch my lips ... > mov bar ; RE- > ld baz ; > mov qux ; -TI > > That's the first place I saw "deadbeef" as a magic number. > > I really liked the System 8000 as a development system > since it had a firmware monitor that could be invoked > in case of a system crash to poke at the RAM. > I think that's where I learned how to repair the system > using the stand-alone bootable tapes such as > SASH: Stand Alone Shell, > and SADIE: the diagnostic tape. > > When Exxon owned Zilog (around 1982), they had an office in > Rockefeller Center (NYC) for their office automation > featuring the Zilog System 8000 running Zeus. > Back then, breadbox sized Z8000 systems running Unix System III > were common, such as the Onyx, so the Unix manuals were all around > (Then 68k based systems took over, then Intel x86). > I like in an apartment, so I can't save 'em all :-( > > > From: Dave McGuire > >> I ran a Zilog System 8000 running Zeus daily >> for quite a while back in the late 1980s. >> > > But did you get to peek into the kernel > or use the maintenance programs? > > > From: "Mark Davidson" > >> I'd love to hear what people have as well... >> I remember "porting" an RM/COBOL system for a doctor's office >> from a CP/M system to ZEUS and loving the system. >> I've never seen any on the collector/used market >> > > I remember seeing 2 on the back of an old pickup truck, > for sale, at the Trenton Computer Fest in the late 80s. > Talk about a fall from grace! > > The only RM/COBOL I remember seeing was a manual for the NCR Tower, > but I was a firm Unix/C kinda guy by then. > > -- Jeff Jonas > From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu May 8 14:11:12 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:11:12 -0700 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: <1210247098.7578.11.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> <1210247098.7578.11.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: No, no, no! :) Interactive on a Northgate 386/16. Now THOSE were the days. *grin*. I found this when searching Google Groups (from 1991): #N *md386* #S Northgate Computer System 80386/16 #O Mark E. Davidson #C Mark E. Davidson #E *md386*!root #T +1 805 496 7088 #P 442 East Wilbur Road, #107, Thousand Oaks, CA 91360 #L 34 10 N / 118 50 W city #R #W j... @uunet.UU.NET (Jane Roop); Fri Jan 5 16:52:47 EST 1990 #U # *md386* uunet(DEMAND) Yep, that's my old system. Mark On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 4:44 AM, David Holland wrote: > On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 23:13 -0700, Mark Davidson wrote: > > If I remember correctly, there's not only an install disk that is > bootable, > > you also need license keys that were supplied by Interactive. > > IIRC, that was only for the multi-user extensions, You could install a > 1-2 user version w/ out typing in keys/serial numbers. > > Also IIRC, if you do have the multi-user extensions (and keys), > remember, once you install the MU disk, it modifies the original so its > now keyed to the serial you used. > > Interactive Unix on a 486DX2/66 w/ 16Mb of RAM, those were the > days....... > > David > > PS: No, alas, I figure its _highly_ unlikely that I still have my pile > of floppies anywhere, I'm going to guess the 'basement monster' ate them > sometime in the last 10-15yrs. > > PPS: I also think there were more disks to the collection, however, I'm > also thinking the version of Interactive I remember was 3.(something). > > > > > Mark > > > > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Steven Hirsch > wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 7 May 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Floren wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have a DEC server (PC) with a 486 running Interactive Unix and > I > > > > > > cant > > > > > > seem to find a way in to change root Password. Any one have a > boot > > > > > > disk > > > > > > or better yet a full set of disks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have what I _think_ is a full set of 3.5" diskettes: > > > > > > > > Interactive X11 Version 2.0 > > > > > > > > Runtime System: > > > > > > > > System and Servers 1-4 > > > > Clients 1-4 > > > > Display Servers I & II > > > > > > > > Easy Windows Version 2.0 Motif Window Manager V1.1.1 > > > > > > > > Contributed Software 1-3 > > > > > > > > Never even tried to read these, much less install them. For all I > know, > > > > none of these are bootable and require a missing install disk. > > > > > > > > > > Quick followup: None of these seem bootable. There must be an > > > installation diskette that's missing. If anyone comes up with one, > would > > > appreciate an image. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 8 14:26:06 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:26:06 -0700 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: <200805081307.59458.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90805081226l5926f3b0s3bd638ad9f9489b0@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Richard wrote: > > The only shipping company that can be trusted so far is Craters & > Freighters. And gee, they are a company that was founded to handle > the needs of shipping fragile art and electronics. What a surprise! I have used Navis Pack & Ship (www.gonavis.com) at least three times at different locations and have had just as good or better results than Craters & Freighters. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 8 14:30:08 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:30:08 -0500 Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482354C0.6020502@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200805081307.59458.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> On Thursday 08 May 2008, Richard wrote: >>> Every time I've trusted a freight company to palletize and ship me >>> SGI stuff from dovebid, I've gotten stuff that was damaged and in >>> some cases not even packed the way the freight company told me they >>> would pack it. >> I think I've said this before, but if you care enough to bitch about >> something arriving broken, you should probably have done the packaging >> yourself, or by a trusted individual, that you personally know (and who >> either takes directions, or knows how to pack things). > > Give me a break. > > Its simply not feasible to fly 2,000 miles (one way, 4K round trip) in > order to pack up some SGI workstation boxes to my satisfaction. Actually, my Cromemco Z2-D traveled safely from Phoenix AZ to Austin TX with no packing or crating at all. It did, however, stay in the garage of a trusted acquaintance for almost a year until I had occasion to travel to Phoenix and bring it home myself. Yes, I made it worthwhile for my friend. :) There's a very simple logic in Pat's point and in my previous post. If I care much about the delivered state, i.e. it's irreplaceable, I see three reasonable options. One, personally perform/supervise the packaging (or have someone I trust do it according to my spec). My PDP-11/04 stayed in the seller's warehouse for several weeks after I bought it. I knew I'd be in that city on business soon, and the seller agreed to hold it until I came to crate it and ship it myself. Two, go get it. I've bought several items like that Z2-D that sat where they were or with someone I bribed for a while. Three, don't buy it. *Especially* if it's something I covet, I'd rather pass than look at a shattered item that I wanted. It's nothing to do with lost money or effort; I just hate getting my hopes stomped on. If a seller or broker has a record of botched shipments, it's likely that nothing I say or do will induce them to do it right. > The only shipping company that can be trusted so far is Craters & > Freighters. And gee, they are a company that was founded to handle > the needs of shipping fragile art and electronics. What a surprise! I've had realy good luck with Forward Air. If I pack it, I palletize it, and I put it on their dock, that's 3/4 of the break points in my hands, not theirs. Oh, and packing peanuts are just wrong. For lighter items, they can be made to work. For a heavy piece - 100+ pounds, if the carton/crate is mishandled, the peanuts will shift no matter what you do, and the piece ends up on the bottom of the box. That's not opinion. That's elementary physics. And don't get me started on th mess they make. Doc From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu May 8 14:47:56 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <573827.2074.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article <48231670.5010909 at mdrconsult.com>, > Doc Shipley writes: > > > I've come to the point that if a piece of equipment weighs more than > > 40 pounds and is less robust than a motor block, it needs to be in a > > crate on a pallet before it leaves my sight. If it has a CRT in it, > > there's just no way to guarantee safe delivery, outside a rigid crate > > with several inches of shaped foam. > ... > Expandable foam, form fitted to the unit seems to work the best. After > that, packing peanuts when used properly work well. Anything less > than that and you're asking for stuff to arrive smashed and busted > because of the weight of the CRT. I have had good experiences with terminals that were packed as I instructed, that is, in a double-wall carton, wrapped with 4+ inches of bubble wrap secured with tape so as to fully encapsulate the item and maintaining full thickness over the corners, and then with the voids in the box filled with peanuts such that the contents do not shift if the box is rolled end-over-end. I always emphasize that the box may be dropped from a height of several feet, in any orientation, including upside-down or on a corner, during normal handling. Unfortunately, I've had a few eBay sellers completely ignore such instructions w/o comment, but the more conscientious ones appreciate the pointers. --Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 13:46:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:46:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Matthias Knoth" at May 7, 8 09:29:11 am Message-ID: > > > Hello, > > does anybody have information/source code/anything about the > Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate running > on a Z8001 16bit CPU. I'm looking for more infos on that. No real info, alas... Zeus was supposedly an acronym for Zilog Enhanced Unix System , or something similar I ahve a Zilog S8000 Model 30 (the large-ish tower machine built in slices with an SMD hard disk and QIC tape drive). I should have the (inary) distriution tape for that somewhere, and I hope the hard disk is still readable (I've not used it for some time, it was fine last time I used it, and I locked the heads afterwards...). But no source code, or even full shcemaitcs (YET!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 13:58:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:58:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <001d01c8b08e$81d56670$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> from "Antonio Carlini" at May 7, 8 11:05:46 pm Message-ID: > > If you build something yourself (which would obviously then > meet the "maintainability" requirements), you could throw Well, I am not going to make the radio modules myself (no way can I meet type approval, even if I meet the technical specs), but I would certainly consider making something _round_ said modules. > in some reasonable buffering. 128MB SDRAM is dirt cheap > (?1 or so) and that is likely to be enough buffering > for almost any classic machine. So even if your radio chip Now that's something that had not really struck me (which is why this sort of discussion on the list is so useful) -- that the file sizes I am going to be transfering _are_ limited. 128Mbytes is larger than the available mass storage (let alone RAM memory) on most of my classics, so except in very unusual ciercumstances, the data I wish to transfer is going to be a lot smaller than that. Which means a buffer is certainly an option. > wants to pause for breath, your classic computer doesn't > need to know. > > Basically this is a (bidirectional) print buffer with > a radio welded on the end. Does it need to be idriectional? A buffer between the classic machine output and the radio module input should be enough. But I suppose if I put one in the other way too, I can use it to do effectively baud rate or data format conversions. Of course I can output a 'buffer getting full' signal to those classic machines that accept hardware flow control, the others will proably not eend enopuug h data all that fast to need it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 15:10:57 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:10:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <004901c8b0e0$2ade3e30$0501a8c0@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 8, 8 09:50:16 am Message-ID: > > You're not related in any way to a person called T. Pratched[1] Not that I am aware of... > If you were, you could use the Semaphore network ;-) Hmmm.. Assuming Semaphore means what I think it does in this context, it would e fairly easy to make a semaphore transmitter that is driven by an RS232 port, the receiver is a lot more work. And what aobut the data rate? If you need to keep up with 1200 baud, that's about 120cps, those arms are going to be flying about, unless you have some kind of data buffering at the transmitter end (which brings us back to another solution). Not to mention, of course, that this is strictly line-of-sight, something that's not possible here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 15:17:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:17:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080508075256.262100@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at May 8, 8 09:52:56 am Message-ID: > > I think the cat(s) would take issue with that and proceed to destroy=20 > > the cause of said tones... > > That would probably be an issue even with the ultrasonic setup, ISTR that= Quite liekly. Although Pentina (my current cat) and Homer (my previous one) completely ignore my Polariod ulstrasonic ranging stuff... > there were "cat chasers" in the market which issued ultrasound when some= > thing entered the detection area of an IR sensor to prevent the fuzzball = > from going in places where it shouldn't (e.g. near expensive furniture). Fortunately Pentina shows no wish to jump on my lathe. And that's the only thing I'd want to keep him away from (for everybody's good). [Modems to cordless phones] > > I suspect if you use 'classic' modems (300 baud, 1200/75, etc), then=20 > > it'll e totally trivial if you can also modify the modem. After all,=20 > > there are separate Tx and Rx signals inside the modem unit. > > Yes, but what about the levels? Phone line vs. capsule mic/handset speake= > r? I doubt that sort of problem can't be solved with some pretty simple circuitry. They're only audio-frequency analogue signals, after all. > > > I see it's hard to make do without permanent cabling, but the ports=20 > > > shouldn't be such a problem. You could just run two links into each=20 > > > room where > > > > So I wait for my parents to go out, when they get back they see DB25=20 > > sockets on the walls of most of the rooms :-). > > Asking beforehand helps a lot I would think ;) At our house, I use every = Oh, I don;t know... It's easier to get forgiveness than permission :-) > chance when wiring is touched to bring Cat5, RG58 and 2-4 pairs of undedi= > cated copper to pretty much every room - the coax for 10b2 or CCTV, the c= > opper for RS-232, audio, IR-remote-by-proxy, phone or whatever future nee= > ds arise. > > > If the 2 machines are next to each other, I might just run a null-modem= > =20 > > cable between them ;-) > > I was well aware of that option :) but two links would, for example, enab= > le you to connect two machines which are in the same room, but need proto= > col analysis or conversion between them done by a third device in a secon= > d room. That is true. I suspect I do have enough ports on the Netcommander to have 2 poerts per room too., if I go that route. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 14:02:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:02:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <20080507172019.X70755@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 7, 8 05:23:50 pm Message-ID: > On Wed, 7 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > I might nt be making much noise, but the fans and hard drives in my > > classics are hardly silent... > > The standard solution to SNR problems is typically, if you can't reduce > the noise, then increase the signal amplitude Indeed. And presumaly (to (mis-)quote the Radiophile magazine refering to fault that cause audio amplifiers to burst into oscillations), this will 'rattle windows within a 500 yard radius of the workshop, frighten horses in the street and cause the elderly and infirm to perform standing jumps of Olympian standard' :-) > > > However, one reason to avoid wires to to avoid upsetting Pentina the cat. > > I think your proposed solution is likely to really other him, alas. > > I don't suppose that training Pentina to carry SD cards from one machine > to another is an option - cats know that they don't need to work As I well know, it'll be easier to install permanent cables everywhere here and/or develop my own radio link system than to train a cat to do anything.. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 8 15:51:09 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: <4822CF23020000370002A961@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <4822CF23020000370002A961@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 2008, Tim Shoppa wrote: > At 6:02 PM -0700 3/9/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >http://www.vintage.org/blog.php?action=read&pid=22 > > That's not bad at all compared to some of the stuff > I've bought over Ebay. I've been pretty disappointed > at some of the 50 or 70 pound lab instruments that look > to be in perfect pristine condition before they're shipped > to me - but arrived in way way too little packaging and > with all the corners bashed in and knobs broken off by > the time they get to me. > > Usually I'm so sad about the whole destruction of what > was just a few days before a very nice example of 50-year-old > technology that I can't even bring myself to leave negative > feedback. What's the point, the seller won't learn, and history's > been lost in any event. I'm even sad that I participated in > the destruction (although I make it very very clear to the > seller what I think he ought to do in shipping, usually the seller > just takes it to the "UPS Store" and let them put it in a > lightweight carboard box with some peanuts.) I'm left not chuckling > but pretty depressed. Horror stories like these is why my shipping charges for heavy items are a bit high. I have them double-boxed at the UPS store. They've been very good with me about securely packing things. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 8 15:49:49 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:49:49 -0500 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4823676D.1050604@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> If you build something yourself (which would obviously then >> meet the "maintainability" requirements), you could throw > > Well, I am not going to make the radio modules myself (no way can I meet > type approval, even if I meet the technical specs) Y'know, I remember electronics kits as a kid always seemed to include both an AM transmitter and receiver project... I'm sure they weren't legal, even back then - unless there is (or was) some loophole for devices with really limited range/power. (Hmm, ALOHA would be on-topically vintage for your systems, too :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 8 15:57:40 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prepare to chuckle... In-Reply-To: References: <4822CF23020000370002A961@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20080508135613.L23280@shell.lmi.net> howzbout: a Compaq Presario laptop loose in an empty Priority Mail flat-rate box "but I wrote 'fragile' on it" From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu May 8 15:49:54 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:49:54 -0300 Subject: govliq: what are these things? References: Message-ID: <020801c8b14d$2aae18f0$0102a8c0@portajara> > I'm having a hard time visualizing how this works. The pins are on > springs so that you press the board down and the pins retract? Imagine a stick and a tube. Put a coil inside the tube and the stick inside the tube in top of the coil. This is a pogo pin. You press the board onto these pins and they retract, making electrical connections. They are precisely placed to contact special test points on the board or anywhere you want to probe. Wikipedia is your friend :o) Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu May 8 16:08:39 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:08:39 -0700 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: References: <31170929.1210177752115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yep, Zilog Enhanced Unix System. Back in those days, vendors weren't allowed to name their OS 'Unix' (which is why you had all those names that typically had -ix somewhere in them). Mark On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > does anybody have information/source code/anything about the > > Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate running > > on a Z8001 16bit CPU. I'm looking for more infos on that. > > No real info, alas... > > Zeus was supposedly an acronym for Zilog Enhanced Unix System , or > something similar > > I ahve a Zilog S8000 Model 30 (the large-ish tower machine built in > slices with an SMD hard disk and QIC tape drive). I should have the > (inary) distriution tape for that somewhere, and I hope the hard disk is > still readable (I've not used it for some time, it was fine last time I > used it, and I locked the heads afterwards...). But no source code, or > even full shcemaitcs (YET!). > > -tony > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 8 16:32:28 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <4823676D.1050604@gmail.com> References: <4823676D.1050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200805082138.RAA00045@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Y'know, I remember electronics kits as a kid always seemed to include > both an AM transmitter and receiver project... > I'm sure they weren't legal, even back then - unless there is (or > was) some loophole for devices with really limited range/power. I think there must be - below some minimum power, pretty much anything must go in most bands; otherwise, things like spark plugs in car engines would be illegal because they splatter a little power all across the RF spectrum. (Not much power, but pretty much clear across the band.) However, it may be that, instead, there's a carveout for radiation which is incidental rather than a primary function, and not information-carrying, or some such. I know little-to-nothing about the relevant regulations in any jurisdiction, and they often don't make logical sense. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 8 16:39:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:39:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <4823676D.1050604@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 8 03:49:49 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> If you build something yourself (which would obviously then > >> meet the "maintainability" requirements), you could throw > > > > Well, I am not going to make the radio modules myself (no way can I meet > > type approval, even if I meet the technical specs) > > Y'know, I remember electronics kits as a kid always seemed to include both an > AM transmitter and receiver project... The Philips EE series of kits had reciever projects, but I don't think there was a single transmitter. Many other kits did, indeed, have low-power AM radio transmitter projects > I'm sure they weren't legal, even back then - unless there is (or was) some > loophole for devices with really limited range/power. I am pretty sure they were technically illegal in the UK (I don't know about other countries [1]), but that given the very low range (you were lucky for it to work across a room), and the fact it wasn't likely to be in operation for very long, then the chances of getting caught were essentially 0 (I certainly never heard of anyone having problems ffrom uilding such projects). [1] Although I remember a warning in the manual for one such kit which was something like 'Connecting a long antenna to this project will violate FCC rules' Longer-range devices, used for longer periods, as here, are a different issue, of course. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 8 17:05:52 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 23:05:52 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805080404.AAA23922@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000801c8b157$b20ee1d0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> der Mouse wrote: >> 128MB SDRAM is dirt cheap (?1 or so) and that is likely to be enough >> buffering for almost any classic machine. > > Yes, but what about the logic necessary to drive it, refresh it, etc? > I certainly know *I* have no idea what is required, and doubt what's > in > my TTL drawers would do the trick. None trivial to be sure, but probably not rocket science. I'm sure I've seen a project or two in Elektor (iirc) that used SDRAM. But a quick flick through a few likely issues failed to produce anything. I've never had to interface to SDRAM, so I cannot say how hard it is. But the data sheets are readily available. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 17:23 From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 8 17:15:27 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 23:15:27 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c8b159$067c1520$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I am not going to make the radio modules myself (no way can I > meet > type approval, even if I meet the technical specs), but I would > certainly consider making something _round_ said modules. I assumed that you'd start with a module for the RF stuff: but that's essentially no different to plonking a 7474 on a board (you could build it from discretes, but there's a nice convenient package ...) > Now that's something that had not really struck me (which is why this > sort > of discussion on the list is so useful) -- that the file sizes I am > going > to be transfering _are_ limited. 128Mbytes is larger than the > available > mass storage (let alone RAM memory) on most of my classics, so except > in > very unusual ciercumstances, the data I wish to transfer is going to > be a > lot smaller than that. Which means a buffer is certainly an option. I mentioned 128MB simply because it is the *smallest* SDRAM I have to hand in any reasonable quantity (I have a handful of 32MB and 64MB). 512MB is cheap too. I don't know at what point you go beyond the likely capacity of any classic. There's not a lot of point in going this route with anything that has an ethernet connection. In my case that would leave machines like a PET, C=64, RML 380Z and so on. 128MB would be overkill for any of those. Of course, the other issue is speed. Assuming 19200 baud that's ~2KiB/s on a good day. It would take a chunk of time to fill 128MB. > Does it need to be idriectional? I wasn't sure how you envisaged using this mechanism. If it's always the case that machine A "prints" to machine B (i.e. A sends, B collects) then the modules do not strictly need to be bidirectional. But I suspect that it would be much more convenient to have a single style of module that does both "send" and "receive" and then just build enough of them to handle your needs. Otherwise the sender and receiver will always be at the wrong ends of a 30' walk :-) Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 17:23 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 8 17:29:55 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 18:29:55 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805081829.55164.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > If you were, you could use the Semaphore network ;-) > > Hmmm.. Assuming Semaphore means what I think it does in this context, > it would e fairly easy to make a semaphore transmitter that is driven > by an RS232 port If you're going to go that route, you might as well use carrier pigeons. At least that method will also provide some entertainment to your cat(s). Said cats may end up mangling the data carriers (and data), though. -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu May 8 17:33:51 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 15:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autonetics D37 ? In-Reply-To: <481FB5C5.8070608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <348421.50180.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Very interesting. Wish I had the whole processor. I've slowly been going through the Tektronix manuals. There are many duplicates. Lot's of PLOT 50 stuff, many with the tapes. Some tapes labeled "master" also. I also found a diskette labeled "CP/M for DOS 50" No idea about that.... Bob Al Kossow wrote: > I picked up what I believe is a console from an Autonetics model D-37 Minuteman I missile guidance computer. D-37 is a DTL computer for the Minuteman II. There is some info and a picture on Wikipedia now about it. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 17:34:10 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:34:10 -0600 Subject: govliq: what are these things? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 17:49:54 -0300. <020801c8b14d$2aae18f0$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: In article <020801c8b14d$2aae18f0$0102a8c0 at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > Wikipedia is your friend :o) It sounded like such an odd name, I didn't think there'd be a page on wikipedia for it :-). But now that I've read through that and your response (thanks, btw), I get it now. The pins are positioned in predetermined places to match test points on the circuit under test. What strikes me as so odd about these items on govliquidation is that the "test points" appear to be a uniform grid across a large area. I guess that's what you need to diagnose a fault in something like a memory board: its a large, regular grid of memory chips, so you need a large regular grid of test points to find the fault. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 8 18:22:46 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:22:46 -0500 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> Message-ID: <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a really > nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on eBay. It set me > back $2000.00. I think that's the horror story right there (paying $2000 for the drive). When it arrived damaged, did the seller refund your money? Did you have the money in escrow? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 8 18:32:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:32:45 -0700 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805082144.m48LiUnp024765@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805082144.m48LiUnp024765@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48232B2D.2285.C0F67AE@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse > I think there must be - below some minimum power, pretty much anything > must go in most bands; otherwise, things like spark plugs in car > engines would be illegal because they splatter a little power all > across the RF spectrum. (Not much power, but pretty much clear across > the band.) Do you mean that you folks outside of the US were spared Ron Popiel and "Mr. Microphone"?! Surely you had his "pocket fisherman"... "It makes the perfect Christmas gift!" Yes, the US does permit unlicensed very low power transmission on the radio broadcast bands. I don't recall if there is a specific power mentioned or simply a propogation distance. Right now, I'm listening to the Beeb World Service on a radio in the bedroom, thanks to a low- power FM transmitter attached to the server downstairs. I don't know if there's a similar provision in UK law, but it might be worth investigating... Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 8 19:07:36 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:07:36 -0600 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 May 2008 18:22:46 -0500. <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <48238B46.1070508 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > > > How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a really > > nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on eBay. It set me > > back $2000.00. > > I think that's the horror story right there (paying $2000 for the drive). > > When it arrived damaged, did the seller refund your money? Did you have > the money in escrow? When I've recieved damaged goods from ebay (ok, it wasn't $2k, but...), I've negotiated with the seller that they pay the shipping expenses and sometimes a little more. Of course, for what I'm buying its like $10 for the unit and $75 to ship it being more typical than $2k for the goods and whatever for shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu May 8 19:07:25 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> Message-ID: <231960.10982.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Marden P. Marshall" wrote: > How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a really > nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on eBay. It set > me back $2000.00. A couple of weeks later, it shows up at my doorstep > via FedEx ground in a disturbingly small box. I quickly open it up to > find that, other than a sheet of bubble wrap thrown on top, there was > no packing at all. And as a result, the drive had taken quite a > beating in transit, resulting in one of the drive doors being crushed > beyond repair (http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/floppy.jpg). An > irreplaceable piece of computing history destroyed because someone was > too lazy to properly pack it. >From what I can see of it, the doors look a lot like the doors on the Calcomp disk drives used by DEC for the RX01. If you send me a better picture of it, or check the labelling on the drives, I might be able to verify this. There is a fellow in town who quite likely has a scrap drive -- I've seen a lot of the later RX02s that have been scrapped for motors and heads in his shop. --Bill From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 8 19:07:04 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 20:07:04 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <48232B2D.2285.C0F67AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805082144.m48LiUnp024765@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48232B2D.2285.C0F67AE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805082007.05069.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 May 2008 19:32, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:32:28 -0400 (EDT) > From: der Mouse > > > I think there must be - below some minimum power, pretty much anything > > must go in most bands; otherwise, things like spark plugs in car > > engines would be illegal because they splatter a little power all > > across the RF spectrum. (Not much power, but pretty much clear across > > the band.) > > Do you mean that you folks outside of the US were spared Ron Popiel > and "Mr. Microphone"?! Surely you had his "pocket fisherman"... "It > makes the perfect Christmas gift!" > > Yes, the US does permit unlicensed very low power transmission on the > radio broadcast bands. I don't recall if there is a specific power > mentioned or simply a propogation distance. Right now, I'm listening > to the Beeb World Service on a radio in the bedroom, thanks to a low- > power FM transmitter attached to the server downstairs. "Part 15" is what covers that, to the best of my recollection. > I don't know if there's a similar provision in UK law, but it might > be worth investigating... I'd think there must be something similar, or there wouldn't be any wireless networking and all sorts of other gizmos for sale there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 8 19:18:48 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <000801c8b157$b20ee1d0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <000801c8b157$b20ee1d0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <53601.64.62.206.10.1210292328.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Antonio wrote: > I've never had to interface to SDRAM, so I cannot say how hard it > is. But the data sheets are readily available. "Plain" SDRAM is not too hard to deal with (only slightly more complex than the older FPM and EDO DRAM), and uses ordinary 3.3V CMOS levels, though parts intended for "mobile" use may use 1.8V or 2.5V CMOS levels. DDR, DDR2, DDR3, etc. use the "Stub Series Terminated Logic" (SSTL) I/O standards that are not compatible with normal logic levels. As a consequence, they are relatively difficult to interface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stub_Series_Terminated_Logic Typically DDR SDRAM is connected directly to a processor or north bridge with an embedded controller and drivers. Most Xilinx FPGAs have I/O buffers that can be configured for SSTL. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 8 19:20:54 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805081829.55164.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200805081829.55164.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <53616.64.62.206.10.1210292454.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Patrick wrote: > If you're going to go that route, you might as well use carrier pigeons. > At least that method will also provide some entertainment to your > cat(s). Said cats may end up mangling the data carriers (and data), > though. If you do that, you should make sure it is RFC 1149 compliant, so that it can interoperate with anyone else you encounter that is also using avian carriers. If you need QoS you might have to use RFC 2549. Eric From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu May 8 20:02:43 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:02:43 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <002101c8b170$63965830$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Jonas Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:23 PM To: cctech Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design I'm slow to enter the discussion because I'm still busy sorting my z80 parts and single board systems instead of enjoying them :-( I'm of 2 minds regarding the Z80: The "classic" vs. the "embedded" mind-set. The embedded solution: I have a Zilog 50 MHz eZ80 development board with more built-in features that I may ever use: ethernet, InfraRed, a LOT of flash and static RAM. My frustration is the lack of support and community activity despite some high profile contests using the board. A clever fellow made an expansion board that adds 2 compact flash slots so it runs CP/M really fast! That appeals to me since it allows it to run stand-alone even for editing, storing and compiling applications. And there's still the programming/debugging pod for using a host system to debug the system should it require external assistance. Back to the original query: the Zilog ez80 board may be appealing because - it's fast (50MHz) and has a lot built in: MMU, RAM, flash ROM, serial and ethernet ports. - allows much more powerful tools on the host system for source control, compilers, debugging via the pod. - others are using it too The classic side: My first "at home" computer was a Servo-8 single board computer (6 MHz Z80B, 64k ram, 2 serial ports, parallel port, SASI port). I chose that over the 4 MHz Z80A Ampro Littleboard. It cost about $500 (with CP/M and schematics) so I was really hesitant to interface it to my own things until I had some experience with cheaper Z80 systems (particularly since all the parts were soldered in!) Long long ago I breadboarded a 4 MHz z80a with 10K static RAM (intending to use battery backup). I originally intended to use a front panel of LEDs and toggle switches (inspired by the Altair). I gave that up while wiring up all the switches, and instead used a Timex Sinclair 1000 as the front panel (hey, a keyboard and display!) to the dual-port static RAM. (the Timex is a complete Z80 system with just 4 chips: z80 CPU, ROM, RAM and Programmable Logic Array for the rest). I still want to use discrete Z80 chips because - I have a logic analyzer to watch it run (I've disassembled some embedded z80 terminals using it) - I like the way the Z80 family chips interface so directly, even for vectored interrupt mode. - I still want to explore "clever" tricks for memory management such as . using the "M" line to differentiate instruction from data reads . implementing true "cycle stealing" (access to memory not currently active by the CPU). I salvaged many z80 based devices (terminals, modems, terminal servers) and pondered reverse engineering them to reprogram for my own uses. Perhaps I'm too impatient but it seemed easier to just start from scratch, or buy a single board system and work from there. I suspect I'll finally get brave enough to just interface the additional Z80 chips to the Servo-8 Z80B SBC since I like that more than the ez80 (so far). Jeffrey Jonas e-mail: jeffj at panix.com -----REPLY----- Jeff, I am building a Z80 SBC as mentioned previously. If you want to add the Z80 peripherals to a Z80 based SBC, have you considered just building an ECB peripheral card? My Z80 SBC design is based on the ECB bus and supports its optional use. Maybe the best approach is to build of my SBCs and the ECB backplane and you design the peripheral card to go along with it. The Z80 SBC now only supports IO accesses on the ECB. I may extend the design in the next version to allow full memory accesses across the ECB for the next SBC design but so far I don't see much use in it since the SBC already includes 1MB EPROM and 512K SRAM. The ECB pin out is the same but the control logic of the SBC would have to change. In addition, the Z80 SBC supports a IEI/IEO lines on the ECB including a 2200 ohm pull up resistor. The Z80 SBC supports the Z80 open drain /INT line directly to the ECB coupled with a 2N2222 TO-18 transistor to drive it. So far the only device attached to the Z80 /INT line is the 16550 UART. None of the current software uses the /INT line yet since I implemented everything in polling mode only. Maybe this is an opportunity to collaborate? A Z80 PIO/DART board probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement on ECB. Check my website if you are interested. I am using KiCad for EDA which is free software. Please let me know if interested. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 8 21:32:43 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 20:32:43 -0600 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <53616.64.62.206.10.1210292454.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805081829.55164.pat@computer-refuge.org> <53616.64.62.206.10.1210292454.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4823B7CB.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > Patrick wrote: > >> If you're going to go that route, you might as well use carrier pigeons. >> At least that method will also provide some entertainment to your >> cat(s). Said cats may end up mangling the data carriers (and data), >> though. >> > > If you do that, you should make sure it is RFC 1149 compliant, so that > it can interoperate with anyone else you encounter that is also using > avian carriers. If you need QoS you might have to use RFC 2549 > I figure the cat pounces for any bir ^H^^H^H lost messages, and dispatches new messages quicker. > Eric > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 9 00:17:01 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 01:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805082007.05069.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805082144.m48LiUnp024765@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48232B2D.2285.C0F67AE@cclist.sydex.com> <200805082007.05069.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200805090520.BAA07286@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Yes, the US does permit unlicensed very low power transmission on >> the radio broadcast bands. [...] I don't know if there's a similar >> provision in UK law, but it might be worth investigating... > I'd think there must be something similar, or there wouldn't be any > wireless networking and all sorts of other gizmos for sale there... (a) there are doubtless bands you don't need a license for; (b) it's possible that a license is necessary in the wireless networking bands but a sufficiently approved device implies an automatic license for tramissions using it, or some such. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu May 8 04:34:39 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:34:39 +0200 Subject: interactive unix boot disk needed In-Reply-To: References: <050620080605.9257.481FF52F000930980000242922216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <7d3530220805061543r64e8ae22j67c82d900c3a9142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4822C92F.4000901@iais.fraunhofer.de> Steven Hirsch schrieb: > On Wed, 7 May 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I have what I _think_ is a full set of 3.5" diskettes: >> >> Interactive X11 Version 2.0 >> >> Runtime System: >> >> System and Servers 1-4 >> Clients 1-4 >> Display Servers I & II >> >> Easy Windows Version 2.0 Motif Window Manager V1.1.1 >> >> Contributed Software 1-3 >> >> Never even tried to read these, much less install them. For all I >> know, none of these are bootable and require a missing install disk. > > Quick followup: None of these seem bootable. There must be an > installation diskette that's missing. If anyone comes up with one, > would appreciate an image. > Hi, I think you don't have the Unix system there but just the addition for the X Window System which consists of servers, clients, libraries. This is apparently not bootable. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 8 06:50:46 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 07:50:46 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0J00KK2SPQHMC8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 20:35:10 -0400 > To: > > >Hi Andrew, > >Just sitting here wondering why you're not using one of the enhanced- >functioning Z80 chips. Even going with the 64180 or Z180 would give >you 2 UARTS and an MMU, in addtion to 2 DMA channels and a timer. >Later version of this product line, will of course, give you more >instructions and functionality. > >But the MMU can make the whole process of bootup very easy. Simply >use the MMU to map the ROM out after the system's been started >(you've got a 1MB physical address space). Duck soup. I can make the boot process easier as you can plop the rom in mappable space. The usual arguement is can you get a Z180 in a package most people are willing to deal with (64pin dip)? Of course the there is a fast Z180 (33mhz) for those that really want speed. >But if you want to stick with the "real" Z80, I've seen two methods >of getting around the reset to 0000. > >The first is to simply force three bytes onto the system bus to >perform a jump to whatever address you desire after a reset. You'll >only do this once per reset, so the circuitry's pretty simple. > >Another way to is to start out with an EPROM mapped in and then >disable it using an I/O instruction. You can leave RAM mapped in for >write cycles, so that only reads will come from the ROM and writes >will go directly to RAM. That way, you can set up locations starting >at 0000 from a ROM. The latter is the shadow rom many have refered to. I usualy do that. And make the rom BIG so not only can I map it in when I want but also access part of it (ROMDRIVE). >In any case, the ROM needn't be very big. I think Don Tarbell used a >little bipolar 82S123 PROM. Gives you 32 bytes to do what you need, >which, in Don's case was enough to get the first sector of an 8" >floppy read. Maybe but in this day and age a 27C256 makes more sense and you can put the whole system image there and have room left over for a debug monitor. There is no requriement to boot the system from "disk" and making that change can make bring up simpler. > >CP/M BIOSes for 2.2 and below are easy--they're poll-mode with >clearly described inputs and outputs. About the only thing you may >find confusing is the IOBYTE convention, but that's optional and >fairly well documented. IO byte is mostly useful fo when you have moer IO that a console and printer. It's pretty trivial to implement. >>I've written a CP/M BIOS without resorting to assembly, doing the >whole thing in machine code. It's not a big thing and you can start >with the basic set of disk and console I/O routines. There are two >boot entry points in the BIOS jump vector--the "cold start" entered >by a jump to 0000 that (re)loads the entire CP/M BDOS and CCP, and >the "warm start" that simply reloads the CCP. And sources are already on the net for many examples. >Disk I/O is done in 128 byte "sectors", so if your physical sectors >are longer than that, you'll need to set up blocking and deblocking >routines. > >All of this is covered in the CP/M System Alteration guide in pretty >fair detail, along with a couple of samples. Deblocking is not too mysterious. The real missing bit in the Alteraion guide is how the BDOS telegraphs the need to preread and when to skip it. Allison > >CP/M 3.0 or MP/M is more involved, taking advantage of bankswitching. >Interrupt-driven I/O is required for MP/M--and the I/O system is >more elaborate. > >Cheers, >Chuck > >-----REPLY----- > >Hi Chuck, > >Sorry it took me so long to reply. > >There is no good reason as to why my computer is designed the way it is. I >just sat down one day and decided to build a Z80 computer. > >I got a book at the library and did a few Google searches and the next thing >you know I was soldering some parts into a prototype board on my bench. It >went through several interations until I ended up with this design. > >The Z80 is definitely the classic although Zilog makes some much improved >integrated components. Using them would have made life much easier I >suppose but I wasn't aware of them when I started. > >I definitely wanted to avoid the hard to build technologies like SMT or hard >to get parts or unique programmable parts like PALs, GALs, CPLDs, or FPGAs. > >Why? Just because. I could have used those components but in my estimation >they take something away from the "feel" or nostalgia or some other >intangible quality. I am sure Tony probably knows what I am talking about. >;-) I am not sure I do... > >One goal was to make the design easy and cheap so that others could make the >project too and keep it affordable. That pretty much eliminated all the >really modern stuff. > >I did consider PLCC packaging for a bit since it uses 0.1" spaced pins but >decided to stick with plain old DIP chips since they are easier to work with >and test. Yes, PCB density suffers terribly but there is absolutely nothing >practical about this project in the least :-) Why start now? > >Anyway, I am nearing completion of the PCB build process. Last night I got >the machine to boot CP/M from the EPROM. Now it can recognise the ROM and >RAM drives as block devices. > >Allison was a huge help in many of the SBC design aspects and I owe her a >debt of gratitude. > >Thanks and have a nice day! > >Andrew Lynch > From Randy.Ferrell at gd-ais.com Thu May 8 07:31:25 2008 From: Randy.Ferrell at gd-ais.com (Ferrell, Randy (NE)) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:31:25 -0400 Subject: Casio CFX-40 Message-ID: <20AAF590067B9543988B09118C84EE47027189C4@MAPF01-MAIL01.ad.gd-ais.com> I am looking for any working or not cfw-40s. If you have any or any contacts please let me know? Thanks Randy Ferrell I use it daily for enbedded programming. From jeffj at panix.com Thu May 8 09:40:12 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zilog Zeus Message-ID: From: Matthias Knoth > does anybody have information/source code/anything > about the Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate > running on a Z8001 16bit CPU Gaaah, it's coming back to haunt me! The NJ Computer Museum has a Zilog System 8000 model 21 what's probably running that! One of my AT&T IS consulting assignments was running URTS (Unix Regression Test Suite) on the SVR3 port and examining the source code. I'm unsure I have any of that on tape or printouts :-( The comments were amusing such as the Z8000 CPU forcing the Z80's "RETI" instruction on the peripheral bus to reset the Z80 peripherals chips interrupt daisy chain. The comments were something like ld foo ; now watch my lips ... mov bar ; RE- ld baz ; mov qux ; -TI That's the first place I saw "deadbeef" as a magic number. I really liked the System 8000 as a development system since it had a firmware monitor that could be invoked in case of a system crash to poke at the RAM. I think that's where I learned how to repair the system using the stand-alone bootable tapes such as SASH: Stand Alone Shell, and SADIE: the diagnostic tape. When Exxon owned Zilog (around 1982), they had an office in Rockefeller Center (NYC) for their office automation featuring the Zilog System 8000 running Zeus. Back then, breadbox sized Z8000 systems running Unix System III were common, such as the Onyx, so the Unix manuals were all around (Then 68k based systems took over, then Intel x86). I like in an apartment, so I can't save 'em all :-( From: Dave McGuire > I ran a Zilog System 8000 running Zeus daily > for quite a while back in the late 1980s. But did you get to peek into the kernel or use the maintenance programs? From: "Mark Davidson" > I'd love to hear what people have as well... > I remember "porting" an RM/COBOL system for a doctor's office > from a CP/M system to ZEUS and loving the system. > I've never seen any on the collector/used market I remember seeing 2 on the back of an old pickup truck, for sale, at the Trenton Computer Fest in the late 80s. Talk about a fall from grace! The only RM/COBOL I remember seeing was a manual for the NCR Tower, but I was a firm Unix/C kinda guy by then. -- Jeff Jonas From mknoth at earthlink.net Thu May 8 18:58:30 2008 From: mknoth at earthlink.net (Matthias Knoth) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:58:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Zilog Zeus Message-ID: <33535759.1210291110875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Tony, thanks for responding! Would you feel comfortable to copy the distribution tape or create a TAR hard disk backup? It would be a great help. I'm working on emulating a Zeus system based on the East German P8000 towers. It would be very interesting to find out how similar this system actually is to your system. As a background - the East Germans could not get their hands on a Zeus system directly due to US export control laws. However, they seem to 've got it anyway - and so their own Z80, Z8000 ICs as well. Did they actually copy the system from somewhere and reverse engineered it or did they write it from scratch no match exactly the original. Those tapes/disk would be great for reference. Cheers, Matt Tony Duell ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >No real info, alas... > >Zeus was supposedly an acronym for Zilog Enhanced Unix System , or >something similar > >I ahve a Zilog S8000 Model 30 (the large-ish tower machine built in >slices with an SMD hard disk and QIC tape drive). I should have the >(inary) distriution tape for that somewhere, and I hope the hard disk is >still readable (I've not used it for some time, it was fine last time I >used it, and I locked the heads afterwards...). But no source code, or >even full shcemaitcs (YET!). > >-tony From jeffj at panix.com Thu May 8 20:49:07 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: any STD bus users or developers? Message-ID: I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? I have a few card cages and cards but never enough I/O cards! In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus just for expansion cards to a single board computer. -- Jeffrey Jonas From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu May 8 22:58:38 2008 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:58:38 -0600 Subject: IBM 129 manual Message-ID: <82643907-B0A9-46BB-9918-68126618B388@comcast.net> I just got my hands on an old IBM 129 keypunch. It seems to power on, but I have no idea how to operate or test it. Anyone know there there might be a manual? I tried all the usual sources (bitsavers, etc) with no luck. I found some old keypunch manuals, but not for this particular model. Thanks. Paul From rachael at telefisk.org Fri May 9 03:31:45 2008 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:31:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 2008, Mark Davidson wrote: > NCR Tower... yes, I used to work for a company that had several of those for > running RM/COBOL. Interesting little machines. I *think* they also had a > special OS just for RM work. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. > I got a ncr tower32 some time ago from a friend, was my intention to make a backup of its hardrives, sadly the psu survied only one powering up, and given my limited space for storage I decied to pull all cards, backplates and hardrives from it, hope one day maybe to figure out what the pinout for the psu was and try to powering the whole lot up again. If anything else fails at the very least try to get the harddrives dumped, still searching for a mfm controler for that job though, Have a 2090 mfm card for my amiga systmes, but I havent been able to make that talk to those 200mb mfm drives the ncr used. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From evan at snarc.net Fri May 9 06:06:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 7:06:00 -0400 Subject: Zilog Zeus Message-ID: <200805091106.m49B6ekd064657@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Gaaah, it's coming back to haunt me! The NJ Computer Museum has a Zilog System 8000 model 21 Just to clarify, Jeff means the MARCH user group's museum, where we host VCF East, etc. ... we've never called ourselves the "NJ Computer Museum". But, he's correct about the Zeus! It was donated by an individual member a couple of years ago. From mardy at voysys.com Fri May 9 06:27:49 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:27:49 -0400 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On May 8, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Marden P. Marshall wrote: >> How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a >> really nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on >> eBay. It set me back $2000.00. > > I think that's the horror story right there (paying $2000 for the > drive). > > When it arrived damaged, did the seller refund your money? Did you > have the money in escrow? I'm not going to bother debating the value of this particular item with you. That would be a moot point. As for the seller ponying up to the bar and taking responsibility, the answer is that so far he has not. -Mardy From mardy at voysys.com Fri May 9 06:38:29 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:38:29 -0400 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <231960.10982.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <231960.10982.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <71A10C97-EA3A-44F1-8D61-58D24EDF2FEE@voysys.com> On May 8, 2008, at 8:07 PM, William Maddox wrote: > --- "Marden P. Marshall" wrote: > >> How's this for a horror story? A few months back, I bought a really >> nice IMSAI dual 8" floppy drive system from someone on eBay. It set >> me back $2000.00. A couple of weeks later, it shows up at my >> doorstep >> via FedEx ground in a disturbingly small box. I quickly open it up >> to >> find that, other than a sheet of bubble wrap thrown on top, there was >> no packing at all. And as a result, the drive had taken quite a >> beating in transit, resulting in one of the drive doors being crushed >> beyond repair (http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/floppy.jpg). An >> irreplaceable piece of computing history destroyed because someone >> was >> too lazy to properly pack it. > >> From what I can see of it, the doors look a lot like the doors on the > Calcomp disk drives used by DEC for the RX01. If you send me a > better > picture of it, or check the labelling on the drives, I might be able > to > verify this. There is a fellow in town who quite likely has a scrap > drive -- I've seen a lot of the later RX02s that have been scrapped > for > motors and heads in his shop. > > --Bill > > > Yes, they are Calcomp 142M drives (http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/floppy_front.jpg ). I'm not a DEC guy, so I don't know if it is the same as the RX01. If anyone knows a source for these drives I would love to know. As far as I have been able to determine, they're as scarce as hens teeth. -Mardy From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri May 9 07:52:44 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 07:52:44 -0500 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4824491C.3000906@gmail.com> Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > > > On Thu, 8 May 2008, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> NCR Tower... yes, I used to work for a company that had several of >> those for >> running RM/COBOL. Interesting little machines. I *think* they also >> had a >> special OS just for RM work. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. >> > I got a ncr tower32 some time ago from a friend, was my intention to > make a backup of its hardrives What model? Although my model 700 is likely staying back in England (too heavy to ship, unfortunately), I think I might have backups of the hard drives here with me in the US and can have a look if needed. They're raw 'dd' dumps, but I expect they'll work to an identical-or-larger drive. > sadly the psu survied only one powering > up, and given my limited space for storage I decied to pull all cards, > backplates and hardrives from it, hope one day maybe to figure out what > the pinout for the psu was and try to powering the whole lot up again. I did once figure out the pinout for one of the 600 models for someone as theirs had a broken PSU - I'll have a look to see if I still have it. It might be model-specific though; I know that PSU was different to the one in my 700. > If anything else fails at the very least try to get the harddrives > dumped, still searching for a mfm controler for that job though, Have a > 2090 mfm card for my amiga systmes, but I havent been able to make that > talk to those 200mb mfm drives the ncr used. Oh. That'll teach me to reply before reading the whole message :-) Sounds like yours was a 4xx/5xx/6xx then, not a 7xx/8xx (which were SCSI). Note that the data on the 700's disks was byte-swapped (i.e. "foobar" appears as "ofbora"), so it needed converting before modern software (Linux in my case) would make sense of it - your disk contents may well be the same. I can't remember now if Linux supported NCR's partition layout right off, or if I had to hack that. cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 9 09:52:42 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:52:42 -0500 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4824653A.1010301@oldskool.org> Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > I'm not going to bother debating the value of this particular item with > you. That would be a moot point. As for the seller ponying up to the > bar and taking responsibility, the answer is that so far he has not. For that price, I would have used an escrow service, regardless of the item (collector piece, television, whatever). Has anyone had any experience using escrow services for higher-priced items? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 9 10:01:39 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transistor ID In-Reply-To: <3CFD9DF7-0847-4C7F-B638-EB6E3FAE34F4@neurotica.com> References: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3CFD9DF7-0847-4C7F-B638-EB6E3FAE34F4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I'm trying to identify a transistor from an early '60s vintage radar processor panel: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/Budd-7L.jpg The transistor is labeled "GT1890G052", and I haven't been able to find anything on the web. They're apparently used to switch 3-lead neon indicator lamps. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From Mark at Misty.com Fri May 9 10:36:04 2008 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:36:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed Message-ID: <20080509153604.GA13392@lucky.misty.com> Hi, I've got a PDP-8E which I've almost got working. Can anyone here help me figure out this remaining problem? As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then go back to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address higher than 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they go low, as soon as I hit the examine switch to step to the next memory location. I can manually load an address 1000000 or 10000000, and hit examine to see 1000001, 1000010, 1000011, etc..., but once I reach 1001111, it's back to 1000000. It was recommended to me that it might be the carry between E52 and E37, or the E38 input multiplexer for bit 7 (on M8300), so last night I socketed and replaced all three of those ICs, but I still see the same symptoms. I have extender boards, so can access M8300 during operation. I measured the carry line between E52 and E37 go low when I reach 1111, but the light for line 10000 doesn't light on the front panel on the next address, and I see the data from memory location 0000, 0001, etc. repeated, displayed as I continue to step through memory locations, as described above. Of course, if someone has a spare M8300 they would be willing to sell me, that's another option. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://mail-cleaner.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 9 10:37:11 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 10:37:11 -0500 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: <4824653A.1010301@oldskool.org> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> <4824653A.1010301@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48246FA7.1050801@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Marden P. Marshall wrote: >> >> I'm not going to bother debating the value of this particular item >> with you. That would be a moot point. As for the seller ponying up >> to the bar and taking responsibility, the answer is that so far he has >> not. > > For that price, I would have used an escrow service, regardless of the > item (collector piece, television, whatever). > > Has anyone had any experience using escrow services for higher-priced > items? Yes. My company bought a good bit of surplus RS/6000 equipment a few years ago, mostly in fairly pricey lots. We used whatever was the popular "e-escrow" service at the time. The reputable dealers were fine with it, and happy to go to the little extra effort. The sellers who had spotty feedbacks with slow shipping or failure to pack properly refused to accept escrow. So basically, the sellers who accepted escrow deals weren't the ones with whom we needed the escrow protection. No big surprise. I must say I'm often amused by the "Monday-morning quarterbacking" on this list. Hindsight is a wonderfully useless thing. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 9 11:03:53 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:03:53 -0700 Subject: IMSAI Drive In-Reply-To: <200805091142.m49BgK3p033887@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805091142.m49BgK3p033887@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48241379.31564.F9ACC22@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:07:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: William Maddox > >From what I can see of it, the doors look a lot like the doors on the > Calcomp disk drives used by DEC for the RX01. If you send me a better > picture of it, or check the labelling on the drives, I might be able to > verify this. There is a fellow in town who quite likely has a scrap > drive -- I've seen a lot of the later RX02s that have been scrapped for > motors and heads in his shop. I've still got the docs for the IMSAI floppy box somewhere and can check to make sure, but I believe the drives are Calcomp 103. Miserable things, compared to the Shugart units. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 9 11:36:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:36:31 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805091142.m49BgK3p033887@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805091142.m49BgK3p033887@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48241B1F.2728.FB8B009@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 07:50:46 -0400 > From: Allison > I can make the boot process easier as you can plop the rom in > mappable space. The usual arguement is can you get a Z180 > in a package most people are willing to deal with (64pin dip)? I wouldn't want to deal with the DIP as it's a "skinny" DIP with 0.050 pin spacing, unlike, say, the 68K. While it probably makes little difference on a PCB, it requires an adapter if you're prototyping--and sockets are hard to find. It's easier to use the 68 pin PLCC to keep the spacing--smaller footprint too. > The latter is the shadow rom many have refered to. I usualy do that. > And make the rom BIG so not only can I map it in when I want but also > access part of it (ROMDRIVE). I believe the Amstrad Joyce uses the printer controller to force the necessary boot code onto the Z80 bus. (Tony?) At least I've never seen a boot ROM on a Joyce PCB. > There is no requriement to boot the system from "disk" > and making that change can make bring up simpler. But that's where the "authentic" aspect fails me. Why run a "vintage" CP/M system without the experience a disk drive gives you? You'll be deprived of the "BDOS Err on B:" messages. What fun is that? One might as well run an emulation program on a PeeCee. I wouldn't be at all surpised to find that someone's done it for the iPod Touch-- there already exists a NEC 9801 emulator for that platform. > Deblocking is not too mysterious. The real missing bit in the > Alteraion guide is how the BDOS telegraphs the need to preread > and when to skip it. Page 14, section 12 entitled "Sector Blocking and Deblocking" in the Alteration Guide covers it pretty well. I remember being relieved to find the information after I struggled with 1.4 not having any such mechanism. I don't think it was in 2.0 either, but I can check if anyone's curious. Cheers, Chuck From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Fri May 9 12:15:21 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 19:15:21 +0200 Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed Message-ID: <20080509191521.ffxf8g8n44kc80go@webmail.izone.at> Hi Mark, I have a spare board here in Austria, but its not tested. If you want to have it for test your system, let me know. We will find some smart deal for the shipping costs, I am shure. With best regards Gerhard From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 9 12:47:25 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 10:47:25 -0700 Subject: Zilog Zeus Message-ID: <48248E2D.20309@bitsavers.org> >used it, and I locked the heads afterwards...). But no source code, or >even full shcemaitcs (YET!). are the documents in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/zilog/s8000 useful? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 9 12:59:35 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <48241B1F.2728.FB8B009@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805091142.m49BgK3p033887@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48241B1F.2728.FB8B009@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <60065.64.62.206.10.1210355975.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > I wouldn't want to deal with the DIP as it's a "skinny" DIP with > 0.050 pin spacing, The lead pitch of shrink DIP packages is 0.070 inch (1.78 mm). I haven't seen any 0.050 (1.27 mm) inch DIPs. Shrink DIPs were popular with Japanese semi companies, but never caught on very well with US companies, most of which skipped those and went straight to PLCC and PQFP packages. Motorola and Rockwell used QUIP packages for some parts. The leads extend from the body on 0.050 inch (1.27 mm) pitch, but are formed into two rows 0.100 inch (2.54 mm) apart. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 9 12:59:35 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 12:59:35 -0500 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: <48246FA7.1050801@mdrconsult.com> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> <4824653A.1010301@oldskool.org> <48246FA7.1050801@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <48249107.40707@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > So basically, the sellers who accepted escrow deals weren't the ones > with whom we needed the escrow protection. No big surprise. Still, you wouldn't know that until you use the service. > Hindsight is a wonderfully useless thing. I disagree. "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 9 13:02:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:02:27 -0400 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805091402.27730.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 May 2008 21:49, Jeff Jonas wrote: > I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. > Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? > I have a few card cages and cards > but never enough I/O cards! > In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus > just for expansion cards to a single board computer. There's a spot on the Bigboard II to put an STD socket, and it'll look there for a second bank of RAM if you use the monitor's bankswitch command. I've always wondered about the possibility of hooking a backplane in there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 9 13:14:10 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 13:14:10 -0500 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: <48249107.40707@oldskool.org> References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> <4824653A.1010301@oldskool.org> <48246FA7.1050801@mdrconsult.com> <48249107.40707@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48249472.4080802@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> So basically, the sellers who accepted escrow deals weren't the ones >> with whom we needed the escrow protection. No big surprise. > > Still, you wouldn't know that until you use the service. The escrow service we used was fine. What I said was, given that the idea behind *using* the escrow service was to guarantee the seller's performance, the sellers with whom we needed that guarantee refused to accept escrowed payment. >> Hindsight is a wonderfully useless thing. > > I disagree. "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." Analyzing my own mistakes is indeed useful and imperative. Analyzing someone else's mistakes on the basis of incomplete understanding of the circumstances data - that profits nobody. Doc From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 9 13:33:14 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 19:33:14 +0100 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: <48249472.4080802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001b01c8b203$26b91950$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Doc Shipley wrote: > Analyzing my own mistakes is indeed useful and imperative. > Analyzing > someone else's mistakes on the basis of incomplete understanding of > the circumstances data - that profits nobody. Whether not using an escrow service for an item of that value was a mistake or not is a judgement that only the buyer can make. However, having the idea of using an escrow service for high ticket items certainly could be of benefit. I doubt that I'll ever buy anything that expensive from ebay, but if I ever do, then I'll certainly consider the use of an escrow service. That's something which might not have occurred to me without this discussion. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.11/1422 - Release Date: 08/05/2008 17:24 From rachael at telefisk.org Fri May 9 13:57:12 2008 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:57:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <4824491C.3000906@gmail.com> References: <4824491C.3000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, 8 May 2008, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >>> NCR Tower... yes, I used to work for a company that had several of those >>> for >>> running RM/COBOL. Interesting little machines. I *think* they also had a >>> special OS just for RM work. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. >>> >> I got a ncr tower32 some time ago from a friend, was my intention to make a >> backup of its hardrives > > What model? Although my model 700 is likely staying back in England (too > heavy to ship, unfortunately), I think I might have backups of the hard > drives here with me in the US and can have a look if needed. They're raw 'dd' > dumps, but I expect they'll work to an identical-or-larger drive. a tower32 model 3460, think what is a 600 type. >> sadly the psu survied only one powering up, and given my limited space for >> storage I decied to pull all cards, backplates and hardrives from it, hope >> one day maybe to figure out what the pinout for the psu was and try to >> powering the whole lot up again. > > I did once figure out the pinout for one of the 600 models for someone as > theirs had a broken PSU - I'll have a look to see if I still have it. It > might be model-specific though; I know that PSU was different to the one in > my 700. Would be very helpfull, would save me having to trace the power lines on the boards. >> If anything else fails at the very least try to get the harddrives dumped, >> still searching for a mfm controler for that job though, Have a 2090 mfm >> card for my amiga systmes, but I havent been able to make that talk to >> those 200mb mfm drives the ncr used. > > Oh. That'll teach me to reply before reading the whole message :-) Sounds > like yours was a 4xx/5xx/6xx then, not a 7xx/8xx (which were SCSI). The controler card has a MFM controler, with room for two data cables and two control onces and a single scsi connector, the scsi connector was only used for a archive corp interface board that does scsi to qic-02 interface from what I have been able to dig up. > Note that the data on the 700's disks was byte-swapped (i.e. "foobar" appears > as "ofbora"), so it needed converting before modern software (Linux in my > case) would make sense of it - your disk contents may well be the same. I > can't remember now if Linux supported NCR's partition layout right off, or if > I had to hack that. If just I can get one of my mfm cards be it the 2090 in my amiga 3000 or the noname lcs one to work with the drives so I can get dd image of them, I can always worry about how to make sense of the data later. Is a good excuise work with my amigas again, havent used them in a while even though they are sitting on my deck right in front of me. regards Jacob Dahl Pind From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 9 15:51:35 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 12:51:35 -0800 Subject: Transistor ID References: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3CFD9DF7-0847-4C7F-B638-EB6E3FAE34F4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4824B956.94B635B@cs.ubc.ca> Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm trying to identify a transistor from an early '60s vintage radar > processor panel: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/Budd-7L.jpg > > The transistor is labeled "GT1890G052", and I haven't been able to find > anything on the web. They're apparently used to switch 3-lead neon > indicator lamps. I found a few cross-refs for GTxx and GTxxxx numbers, but not specifically for GT1890. According to these refs, a prefix of "GT" was used by General Instruments, General Transistor, and AEI (England). .. not much help, I know. Not likely to be very critical though, surely ..figure out whether they're NPN or PNP and choose an appropriate breakdown voltage (?). I wonder if the 3-lead neon lamps were used to reduce the breakdown voltage requirements. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 9 15:52:46 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 12:52:46 -0800 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? / minimal CP/M References: Message-ID: <4824B99E.DFB651B6@cs.ubc.ca> Jeff Jonas wrote: > I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. > Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? > I have a few card cages and cards > but never enough I/O cards! > In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus > just for expansion cards to a single board computer. I have a 9-slot STD bus backplane built into a piece of one-off lab equipment from some physics experiment. I made schematics for some of the cards: Mostek MDX-CPU-IIA - processor, system clock, CTC timer, and static RAM or EPROM memory Mostek MDX-MC - static RAM or EPROM memory Mostek MDX-BCLK - TOD clock (and some one-off IO cards) if of any help or interest. I was figuring on converting it into something perhaps useful sometime, involving re-working the prototype IO cards into more general use. The discussions of CP/M in ROM might be interesting to consider for it. I was reminded of the STD bus while reading the other thread about minimal CP/M or home-brew Z80 systems, the STD bus being tailored for the Z80 (and a lot simpler than S100). From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 9 15:04:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:04:27 -0600 Subject: Shipping equipment In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 May 2008 09:52:42 -0500. <4824653A.1010301@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <4824653A.1010301 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Has anyone had any experience using escrow services for higher-priced items? How does that work with ebay? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 9 16:33:32 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 13:33:32 -0800 Subject: IBM 129 manual References: <82643907-B0A9-46BB-9918-68126618B388@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4824C32B.3329FAB@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Heller wrote: > > I just got my hands on an old IBM 129 keypunch. It seems to power on, > but I have no idea how to operate or test it. Anyone know there there > might be a manual? I tried all the usual sources (bitsavers, etc) with > no luck. I found some old keypunch manuals, but not for this > particular model. I have a small user manual for the 029 (predecessor to the 129) from the university computing centre from my keypunch days. It's not an IBM manual, but it covers basic ops, the front panel switches, and details of the "program unit/drum" control card, if of any help. (Did you get lots of blank cards with it?) A google search turns up an outfit still (apparently) providing maintenance contracts for unit-record equipment (?!): http://web.wt.net/~key129/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 9 15:48:28 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 129 manual In-Reply-To: <82643907-B0A9-46BB-9918-68126618B388@comcast.net> References: <82643907-B0A9-46BB-9918-68126618B388@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 2008, Paul Heller wrote: > I just got my hands on an old IBM 129 keypunch. It seems to power on, but I > have no idea how to operate or test it. Anyone know there there might be a > manual? I tried all the usual sources (bitsavers, etc) with no luck. I found > some old keypunch manuals, but not for this particular model. Try Chuck Hansen: dataservice at juno.com I bought a set of service manuals from him last year, along with some belts and ribbons. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri May 9 16:41:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:41:05 +0000 Subject: IBM 129 manual In-Reply-To: <4824C32B.3329FAB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <82643907-B0A9-46BB-9918-68126618B388@comcast.net> <4824C32B.3329FAB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080509214105.GA9305@usap.gov> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 01:33:32PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Paul Heller wrote: > > > > I just got my hands on an old IBM 129 keypunch... > > I have a small user manual for the 029 (predecessor to the 129) from the > university computing centre from my keypunch days. It's not an IBM manual, > but it covers basic ops, the front panel switches, and details of the > "program unit/drum" control card, if of any help. I would love a pointer to a soft-copy of an 029 manual. I've had one for some time now, but haven't even begun to delve into it (except to take off the back cover and marvel at the guts). > (Did you get lots of blank cards with it?) Sadly, no; another reason for not jumping into it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-May-2008 at 21:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.2 F (-61.2 C) Windchill -104.1 F (-75.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.9 kts Grid 81 Barometer 687.2 mb (10358 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 9 17:14:34 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casio CFX-40 In-Reply-To: <20AAF590067B9543988B09118C84EE47027189C4@MAPF01-MAIL01.ad.gd-ais.com> References: <20AAF590067B9543988B09118C84EE47027189C4@MAPF01-MAIL01.ad.gd-ais.com> Message-ID: <20080509150951.K79695@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 May 2008, Ferrell, Randy (NE) wrote: > I am looking for any working or not cfw-40s. > If you have any or any contacts please let me know? > I use it daily for enbedded programming. There are two on eBay right now. One is a 400 (same, but chrome plated case). Five years ago, Scott Mueller mentioned having some extras. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri May 9 17:55:38 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 129 manual - blank cards In-Reply-To: <20080509214105.GA9305@usap.gov> Message-ID: <489765.9247.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Snip: > (Did you get lots of blank cards with it?) Sadly, no; another reason for not jumping into it. -ethan -- You can still buy cards at: http://www.cardamation.com/ $32 / 2000 Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 17:29:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:29:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <000801c8b157$b20ee1d0$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> from "Antonio Carlini" at May 8, 8 11:05:52 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, but what about the logic necessary to drive it, refresh it, etc? > > I certainly know *I* have no idea what is required, and doubt what's > > in > > my TTL drawers would do the trick. > > None trivial to be sure, but probably not rocket science. I'm sure > I've seen a project or two in Elektor (iirc) that used SDRAM. But > a quick flick through a few likely issues failed to produce > anything. I don;t recall any Elektor projects that used SDRAM. SD cards, yes, but that's a totally different thing. I've nto looked recently, how much is SRAM these days? Something like 16Mbytes of it? SRAM is totally trivial to interface to, of course. > > I've never had to interface to SDRAM, so I cannot say how hard it > is. But the data sheets are readily available. It's what the data sheets don't mention that comes back to bite you :-). Particlaurly things like supply decoupling, ground planes, ground bounce, and other RF-related subjects that, if you don't take care, will result in a memory system that'll pass diagnostics but will fail in obscure ways in real use (don't ask....) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 18:09:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:09:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed In-Reply-To: <20080509153604.GA13392@lucky.misty.com> from "Mark G. Thomas" at May 9, 8 11:36:04 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I've got a PDP-8E which I've almost got working. > > Can anyone here help me figure out this remaining problem? > > As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then > go back to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address > higher than 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they > go low, as soon as I hit the examine switch to step to the next > memory location. > > I can manually load an address 1000000 or 10000000, and hit examine to > see 1000001, 1000010, 1000011, etc..., but once I reach 1001111, it's > back to 1000000. > > It was recommended to me that it might be the carry between E52 and E37, It's been soem time since I've been inside a PDP8/e, but I would have thought that a carry prolem would have caused all the its to 'stick' (or latch), but only the bottom to increment. > or the E38 input multiplexer for bit 7 (on M8300), so last night I > socketed and replaced all three of those ICs, but I still see the same > symptoms. I repeiared a PDP9/e with a similar-ish problem years ago, and it was one of the latch chips I think. > > I have extender boards, so can access M8300 during operation. I > measured the carry line between E52 and E37 go low when I reach 1111, but > the light for line 10000 doesn't light on the front panel on the next OK, can you find where the 10000 bit comes from? Look at the inputs to that chip -- should the appropriate output be being asseted? If not, which of the input(s) is wrong? Trace that back, and so on. This is not a complciated processor from what I remember, so it shouldn't be too ahrd t odo that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 17:53:46 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:53:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <48232B2D.2285.C0F67AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 8, 8 04:32:45 pm Message-ID: > Do you mean that you folks outside of the US were spared Ron Popiel > and "Mr. Microphone"?! Surely you had his "pocket fisherman"... "It > makes the perfect Christmas gift!" I've never heard of any of those devices. > > Yes, the US does permit unlicensed very low power transmission on the > radio broadcast bands. I don't recall if there is a specific power > mentioned or simply a propogation distance. Right now, I'm listening > to the Beeb World Service on a radio in the bedroom, thanks to a low- > power FM transmitter attached to the server downstairs. > > I don't know if there's a similar provision in UK law, but it might > be worth investigating... I am pretty sure there is not. In fact as I understnad it, it's illegal to own certain radio transmitters over here (whether or not you ever turn them on). 27MHz AM CB sets are one thing that it's illegal to have over here (although I rememebr a curiousity that in some circumstances licensed radio amateurs could own them if they intended to convert them to the 10m band). I do recall reading about people being taken to court for using illegal 'video senders' (basically low power TV transmitters so you could watch the output of your VCR on any TV in the house). The normal penalty was confiscation of the equipment, something I don't want to risk (I don't want to spend time designing soemthing to have it confiscated, worse I don't want any of my clasiscs confiscated, nor to I want to lose my amateur radio license, somthing that generally happens if you commit an offencee like this).# As I mentioned, there were 'Wireless micropghone' designs in some of the electronic kits. They were such low power that they were essentially undectectable outside the house, so you'd get away with those. And there are type-approved radio modules on licesne-exempt bands that you can use (which are, of course, what we've been discussing). AFAIK, the only transmitter you can legally homebrew and use in the UK is an amateur band one, used in accordance with an amatuer radio licesne (which is _not_ suitable for this sort of thing, it's contrary to said license for a person to tranmit to himeslf, for example) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 17:55:57 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:55:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <33535759.1210291110875.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Matthias Knoth" at May 8, 8 04:58:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi Tony, > > thanks for responding! Would you feel comfortable to copy the > distribution tape or create a TAR hard disk backup? It would be > a great help. I can try, but iy's not going to be any time soon. I've got a lot of other things I need to do first... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 17:42:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:42:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <000901c8b159$067c1520$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> from "Antonio Carlini" at May 8, 8 11:15:27 pm Message-ID: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, I am not going to make the radio modules myself (no way can I > > meet > > type approval, even if I meet the technical specs), but I would > > certainly consider making something _round_ said modules. > > I assumed that you'd start with a module for the RF stuff: but Indeed I would. There seem to be fairly dumb modules, and those Xbee things, and the latter are not significantly more expensive or harder to use. > that's essentially no different to plonking a 7474 on a board > (you could build it from discretes, but there's a nice > convenient package ...) there is one difference. The 74x74 schematics -- to component level -- are in the data sheet. The internals of these radio modules are not disclosed anywhere from what I can see. Which might matter if either the system doesn't behave in the way I expect, or if I am trying to do soemthign unconventional with it. And of course testing a 74x74 is a lot easier than testing a radio module with an embedded microprocessor. > > > Now that's something that had not really struck me (which is why this > > sort > > of discussion on the list is so useful) -- that the file sizes I am > > going > > to be transfering _are_ limited. 128Mbytes is larger than the > > available > > mass storage (let alone RAM memory) on most of my classics, so except > > in > > very unusual ciercumstances, the data I wish to transfer is going to > > be a > > lot smaller than that. Which means a buffer is certainly an option. > > I mentioned 128MB simply because it is the *smallest* SDRAM I have > to hand in any reasonable quantity (I have a handful of 32MB and > 64MB). 512MB is cheap too. I don't know at what point you go beyond > the likely capacity of any classic. There's not a lot of point in There would seem to be 3 size limits to consider : The size of the RAM memory of the classic Size of removeable storage (e.g. floppy disks) Size of fixed storage (winchesters, etc) In many cases, individual files are smaller than the RAM memory (since they're entirely loarded into RAM when in use). Not always of course. And generally files are smaller than the stnadard dloppy disk capacity of the machine in question. Which means that for an awful lot of smaller classics, a 1Myte buffer would be overkill. 128M would exceed the total hard disk space on just about any classic that I own. > going this route with anything that has an ethernet connection. In Well, assuming the machine you want to connect it to also has an ethernet interface, and that you have suitable software on both machines already. > my case that would leave machines like a PET, C=64, RML 380Z > and so on. 128MB would be overkill for any of those. > > Of course, the other issue is speed. Assuming 19200 baud that's > ~2KiB/s on a good day. It would take a chunk of time to fill > 128MB. I get it as about 19 hours (assuming 10 bits/character, so 1920 characters/second). For that sort of thing I'd want to split the trasnfer up into smaller sections , so that if anything went wrong I wouldn't have to do the whole lot again. > > > > Does it need to be idriectional? > > I wasn't sure how you envisaged using this mechanism. If it's > always the case that machine A "prints" to machine B (i.e. A > sends, B collects) then the modules do not strictly need to be > bidirectional. But I suspect that it would be much more convenient I was refernting to the buffer having to be bidirectoaal. I think you only ened this exernal buffer between the output of the classic and the input of the radio modem. From the radio modem to the classic is less of a problem -- if the classic supports hardware flow control, then it can tell the radio modem to stop sending, if there is no hardware flow control, then it's assumed the classic is going to keep up with the incoming data stream (no matter what it comes from). . A buffer woun't be a lot of use there. The complete system is bidriectional, but there's only a unbidirectional uffer at esch node On the other hand, adding a buffer would allow the radio modem to run at a standard speed, and the interface to the classic machine to be run at any speed desired. And having designed the buffer once, it's not a lot more work to put 2 of them at each node/ -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 9 19:53:43 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:53:43 -0700 Subject: Vintage Algorist Message-ID: <48248FA7.13087.117FDEC6@cclist.sydex.com> http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/hebert/?sr=hotnewshttp://www.app le.com/science/profiles/hebert/?sr=hotnews Describes a fellow in Paris who started with an IBM 704 and moved on to various bits of vintage iron to create art. (He uses a Mac now). Tony will appreciate the mention of the HP 98xx series. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 9 21:42:01 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:42:01 -0800 Subject: Vintage Algorist References: <48248FA7.13087.117FDEC6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48250B79.5AE6E1D@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/hebert/?sr=hotnewshttp://www.app > le.com/science/profiles/hebert/?sr=hotnews > > Describes a fellow in Paris who started with an IBM 704 and moved on > to various bits of vintage iron to create art. (He uses a Mac now). > Tony will appreciate the mention of the HP 98xx series. Reminds me of that "spirograph" type art from the 60s! (Ties in with another current thread on the list, too): One new challenge H?bert encountered when he adopted the Mac was getting the computer to connect with whatever tool he was using to trace patterns. "Before I used the Mac, I would connect the computer to the machine using an RS232 serial cable," he notes. But Macs had lost their serial ports by the advent of Mac OS X, so H?bert had to find other connections. For a while, he worked through an old serial hub that he connected with the Mac via Ethernet. "It took a while for someone to come out with a reliable USB-to-serial connector," he recalls, "but that was resolved three or four years ago." Depending upon the tool he?s using, he still occasionally tinkers with these connections: "Sometimes I need to install a manufacturer driver for the USB-to-serial cable, and sometimes I just write the whole driver myself?for instance, to drive a computer-controlled motor." From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri May 9 20:52:15 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:52:15 -0400 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? Message-ID: <006101c8b240$78d5fcc0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Jonas Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:49 PM To: cctech Subject: any STD bus users or developers? I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? I have a few card cages and cards but never enough I/O cards! In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus just for expansion cards to a single board computer. -- Jeffrey Jonas -----REPLY----- Hi Jeff, Have you considered STE or ECB bus rather than the STD bus? STD is a fine bus no doubt but as it uses edge connectors, building prototype boards is more difficult I think. STE and ECB bus use a plain DIN 41612 connectors and can be attached to a plain PCB or prototype board. There are still companies supporting the STE bus (ARCOM and others) and some of the parts are still available. I have found that the selection of the PCB form and bus interface is one of the most difficult selections and factors involved in building homebrew computers. PCBs with edge connectors really drive the costs up because specialized prototype boards are required or if you manufacture the PCBs using edge connectors and gold fingers are extra. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 9 21:52:07 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 19:52:07 -0700 Subject: IBM 129 manual Message-ID: <48250DD7.4070202@bitsavers.org> > Anyone know there there > might be a manual? docs now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/129 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 9 23:36:58 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:36:58 -0400 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 8, 2008, at 10:40 AM, Jeff Jonas wrote: >> does anybody have information/source code/anything >> about the Zilog Zeus System? It is a System III Unix derivate >> running on a Z8001 16bit CPU > > Gaaah, it's coming back to haunt me! > The NJ Computer Museum has a Zilog System 8000 model 21 > what's probably running that! That may actually be one of my old systems. I got three of them in the late 80s, kept two of them for a few years, then sent them along to new homes. Exxon Office Systems had a large facility near Princeton, NJ, where a lot of System 8000 work was done. My systems came indirectly from that facility. >> From: Dave McGuire >> I ran a Zilog System 8000 running Zeus daily >> for quite a while back in the late 1980s. > > But did you get to peek into the kernel > or use the maintenance programs? Nope...just userland programming. >> I'd love to hear what people have as well... >> I remember "porting" an RM/COBOL system for a doctor's office >> from a CP/M system to ZEUS and loving the system. >> I've never seen any on the collector/used market > > I remember seeing 2 on the back of an old pickup truck, > for sale, at the Trenton Computer Fest in the late 80s. > Talk about a fall from grace! Was it a short rack and a tall rack? If so, those were likely mine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Sat May 10 00:14:29 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:14:29 -0400 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003101c8b25c$ba9ac660$f750f945@evan> >>> That may actually be one of my old systems. I got three of them in the late 80s, kept two of them for a few years, then sent them along to new homes. Ours here in NJ came from someone in northern Virginia, who got in turn got it from a friend of his at a company called CCI (Computer Consoles Inc.), but I don't know the timeframe of that transaction. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat May 10 00:55:07 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:55:07 -0400 Subject: WTB: SMC COM81C17 UARTS Message-ID: <8CA807988BC0FD5-4D8-2865@webmail-nf11.sim.aol.com> Looking for a few SMC COM81C17 UARTS, to repair some vintage computer equipment. This is a 20-pin UART. I don't believe anyone ever made a pin-compatible substitute. Direct replacement only; not interested in any type of kludge. ;-) Shoot me an e-mail if you have some, along with a price. Thanks for your time. . . . T From ragooman at comcast.net Sat May 10 01:47:15 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 02:47:15 -0400 Subject: In search of MM57109 by National Semi Message-ID: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> Would anyone have any of the MM57109 numerical processor chips ? I had no luck finding this at any of the parts suppliers. This was made about '78 =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 10 02:22:28 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In search of MM57109 by National Semi In-Reply-To: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> References: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan wrote: > Would anyone have any of the MM57109 numerical processor chips ? At one time I had a tube of them, but alas, no longer do. Octopart reveals that one of the parts brokers lists them: http://www.area51esg.com/search-semiconductorss-capacitors-resistors.htm?part=MM57109N&submit2=Search Good luck actually getting any, though. I haven't tried this particular broker, but none of the ones I've tried in the past would respond to an RFQ. Apparently even $250 per line item isn't enough to interest them. I think the MM57109 was an MM5799 with a particular ROM mask, though that won't help you since no MM5799-labelled part will do what you want. The MM5799 was from National's original COPS family, which predated the COP4xx family. There was a later MM57409 "Super Number Cruncher" that used the same general concept but was not pin or software compatible. It was NMOS rather than PMOS, so it was probably faster than the MM57109. I've never been able to find one, or evidence that it was designed into any products, though some of the brokers claim to have them. >From the data sheet it appears to be a COP440. Eric From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 10 03:03:54 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:03:54 +0200 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080510100354.8edf1350.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 5 May 2008 20:55:51 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Must work over a distance longer than the RS232 spec allows (i.e. the > answer is probably not 'A long RS232 cable' :-)). > > Prefereably no cables at all. Build two RS232 to Ethernet translators using e.g. this: http://www.lochraster.org/etherrape/ (Atmel AVR microcontoler based SBC with various interfaces like RS232, Ethernet, I2C, IR, ... Completely open with shematics and software source.) If you got it to work with an Ethernet cable between them replace the cable with a pair of cheap, used 11 MBit/s wireless accesspoints in bridging mode. (I.e. the accesspoints are transparent to the Ethernet.) -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 10 03:43:30 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:43:30 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1210409010.7146.18.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-05-06 at 22:42 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial > > extenders. > > Yes, I have, and still am, considerign those. Somebody else suggested the > Xee module, I had haeard of that. But do any of them work without any > flow control lines back to the host? The simple radio module (on the > 433MHz band) that I looked at certainly eneded the RTS/CTS flow control > or something equivalent. I'm fairly sure you could use something to fake the flow control lines. My first thought would be to use some sort of microcontroller to buffer a few bytes from the serial port, drop the link into tx, send them, and go back to rx again. This is basically what commercial 433/466MHz links do. Gordon From steerex at ccvn.com Fri May 9 06:41:50 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 07:41:50 -0400 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1210333310.6676.28.camel@bart> On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 21:49 -0400, Jeff Jonas wrote: > I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. > Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? > I have a few card cages and cards > but never enough I/O cards! > In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus > just for expansion cards to a single board computer. > > -- Jeffrey Jonas Jeffrey, STD BUS systems are very cool toys. The open architecture and large number of I/O options make them very attractive for the computer / electronics hobbyist. I have a large stash of cards and docs. Probably 500 cards and 5 linear feet of docs in all. I also have a few custom cards, a bus analyzer (very cool), and some breadboard cards. Sorry but, I'm not looking to get rid of any of my treasures. Most of the docs are for Z80 CPUs and common I/O cards. I'll be glad to look up any information on specific cards for you. NOTE: Several manufacturers still make STD BUS systems. They use x86 processors and run ROM basic, or various Real Time OSs. For those who want to build their own hardware, breadboard cards are still available from electronics suppliers. I prefer the Z80 CPUS. STD BUS stuff used to be very common. I've found them in all kind of controller applications. From billboards to automated machine tools and industrial monitoring equipment to specialized test systems. They can still be found on ebay but are not near as common as they were. I would expect to pay between $10 and $20 for a common card. CPU cards might be a little higher. Many sellers on ebay do not know what a STD BUS card is and will list them without the STD BUS designation. It makes them harder to find but means you can get a better deal. See ya, -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 9 09:17:09 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: <1210333310.6676.28.camel@bart> References: <1210333310.6676.28.camel@bart> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2008, Steve Robertson wrote: > STD BUS stuff used to be very common. I've found them in all kind of > controller applications. From billboards to automated machine tools and > industrial monitoring equipment to specialized test systems. They can > still be found on ebay but are not near as common as they were. I would > expect to pay between $10 and $20 for a common card. CPU cards might be > a little higher. Many sellers on ebay do not know what a STD BUS card is > and will list them without the STD BUS designation. It makes them harder > to find but means you can get a better deal. I have several plastic storage bins full of mostly brand-new STD BUS cards with software and documentation plus two or three little boxed backplanes with power supplies. If there's anyone interested in making an offer on the lot, please contact me privately and I'll see about pulling together an inventory list. Steve -- From mknoth at earthlink.net Fri May 9 13:55:11 2008 From: mknoth at earthlink.net (Matthias Knoth) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:55:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Zilog Zeus Message-ID: <8390264.1210359312120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Al, this is really cool! Basically the complete system documentation. Would there be a chance that somebody put a dump of the Zeus system at this place? Thanks!, Matt >>used it, and I locked the heads afterwards...). But no source code, or > >even full shcemaitcs (YET!). > >are the documents in >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/zilog/s8000 useful From ohh at panix.com Fri May 9 14:03:47 2008 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed In-Reply-To: <20080509153604.GA13392@lucky.misty.com> References: <20080509153604.GA13392@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 2008, Mark G. Thomas wrote of a PDP-8E thusly: > [...] As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then > go back to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address > higher than 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they > go low, as soon as I hit the examine switch to step to the next > memory location. [...] My first impression is that those two bits of the MA are toast. When two adjacent bits of a register simultaneously get up and die, that sounds like a flip-flop which holds both - a 7474, or 74H74, or DEC 8271 - has gone south. I've never had an 8/E, but... ...would the 8271 chip at M8300, position E25, be the one controlling MA bits 6 and 7? I'm not up on my 8/Es, so please: grab drawings and see if that's the right spot. :) But I'd look at testing that chip before I went after any others. -O.- From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 10 04:30:58 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:30:58 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805052034.m45KYskm015357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <42771.64.62.206.10.1210020561.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1210411858.7146.21.camel@elric> On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 13:49 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Dennis wrote: > > It were me, I'd probably look into Bluetooth- or Zigbee-based serial > > extenders. > > I'm not sure about Zigbee, but the useful range of Bluetooth is very > short. There are claims of over 30 meters, but as far as I can tell > that must be under laboratory conditions, e.g. in a faraday cage. > In the real world, more than about 3 meters line of sight works poorly, > as does non-line-of-sight at any distance. Get an old satellite dish, remove the LNB, cut a piece of wood to fit with a slot that will take a bluetooth USB dongle and then point it at someone a mile away. You should be able to associate to their phone. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 10 06:45:54 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:45:54 +0100 Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: References: <821992.98846.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <88994AB7-BBE5-4D5F-A48C-91B066D13648@voysys.com> <48238B46.1070508@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1210419955.7146.26.camel@elric> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 07:27 -0400, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > As for the seller ponying up > to the bar and taking responsibility, the answer is that so far he has > not. Well, presumably you know where he lives... Gordon From dm561 at torfree.net Sat May 10 08:49:00 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:49:00 -0400 Subject: Vintage Algorist Message-ID: <01C8B283.14FF6180@host-208-72-122-57.dyn.295.ca> --------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:53:43 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Vintage Algorist http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/hebert/?sr=hotnewshttp://www.app le.com/science/profiles/hebert/?sr=hotnews Describes a fellow in Paris who started with an IBM 704 and moved on to various bits of vintage iron to create art. (He uses a Mac now). Tony will appreciate the mention of the HP 98xx series. Cheers, Chuck --------------Reply/Comment: Not "art," but along the same lines and more practical: http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/08/etch-a-sketch-clock-automatically-draws-redraws-time/ m From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat May 10 09:53:09 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:53:09 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Drive [Imsai original dual 8" disk drive system notes] Message-ID: <001301c8b2ad$8fee3ae0$6500a8c0@barry> The drives used in the original IMSAI disk system were Calcomp 140's (this was with the 2-board IFM/FIB disk controller set). In later versions that supported double density (with the later DIO/PDS 2-board disk controller set), these were changed to identical looking (but electrically different) Calcomp 142's. I have the original Calcomp OEM and service manuals here .... and I have them both in hard copy and as scanned PDF files (someone really lucked out .....). [The drives used by DEC were made for them by Calcomp and had the same faceplate, but I am not sure if they were the same drives or not ... I don't think that they were, but I'm not sure of that.] In the early chassis, Imsai used a Calcomp "PLO" phase locked loop data separator board for each drive (e.g. two of them ... it was a PC board about 4" x 6"). In later chassis, they figured out how to use one single PLO board for both drives. In still later implementations, the PLO was eliminated entirely and data separation was done in the disk controller back in the computer (this did not happen until the DIO/PDS controller replaced the IFM/FIB controller). Also, there was a "short" chassis (early) and a "long" chassis (late). Originally, the chassis had terrible cooling, and a cooling mod kit was developed that consisted of some die-cut cardboard vents and baffles as well as an added fan. The short chassis was too short to house the fan, so when the cooling mod was retrofitted, the fan went on the OUTSIDE back of the case. The later "long" chassis was 2" deeper and had the fan on the inside. In addition to the original Calcomp manuals, I also have an original IMSAI manual on the disk SYSTEM (the original IFM/FIB controller version, not the later DIO/PDS controller version). Unfortunately, I have never scanned that to PDF (it's a bound manual ... I'd have to destroy it). Note that in the original 2-board disk controller, the IFM board went through a lot of revisions, and versions earlier than Rev. 6 were junk. The IFM board is a complete 8080 compute system with it's own 8080 CPU, RAM (2111's, I think) and ROM (two 2708's, I think). I have source code for the IFM firmware, I believe. This board did DMA into the "main" 8080 system memory. It was, for the time, a very elegant design. Unfortunately, it was slow, it REQUIRED the full original CP/M interleave of 6 to work. It was (and therefore is) possible to replace the IFM/FIB controller with a single density Tarbell controller (Western Digital 1771), I did this in a few systems. The result was a MUCH better disk system. In this mod, the PLO board(s) were removed entirely, raw unseparated clock and data were fed back to the [Tarbell single density] controller and the system was 6x faster (could work with no interleave at all), more reliable, lower power and one board instead of two. To do this you put a dip plug into the socket on the Calcomp drives where the PLO had plugged in, that was the only change to the disk box, which connected to the main IMSAI (or other computer) with a 25-conductor flat ribbon cable (DB-25 at both ends). Then you needed a custom cable from a DB-25 socket on the back of the IMSAI to the Tarbell controller, and custom wiring of the Tarbell controller, which was not much more than a "disk controller prototype board" to begin with. I MAY still have my notes on the Tarbell jumpering for that configuration. The may, in fact, be in the PDF file I created of the Tarbell single density manual that was posted on Howard Harte's site. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 10 11:10:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:10:50 -0700 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4825669A.15749.14C784DF@cclist.sydex.com> > PCBs with edge connectors really drive the costs up because specialized > prototype boards are required or if you manufacture the PCBs using edge > connectors and gold fingers are extra. It's very strange--at one time Radio Shack (under their "Archer" brand) sold 22/44 position edge-connector prototyping cards, in phenolic, rather than FR4 and with tinned, rather than gold-plated fingers. Vector had similar prototype cards as well. It's kind of hard to believe that they're all gone now, since at one time, they were very common. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 10 11:17:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:17:28 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48256828.19314.14CD9877@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Eric Smith" > The lead pitch of shrink DIP packages is 0.070 inch (1.78 mm). I > haven't seen any 0.050 (1.27 mm) inch DIPs. Shrink DIPs were popular > with Japanese semi companies, but never caught on very well with US > companies, most of which skipped those and went straight to PLCC and > PQFP packages. Right you are--I dug out a couple of shrink DIPs and they are indeed 0.070 inch. Unless you're going right to PCB, these are a real pain to deal with today--hard to find sockets, odd spacing, etc. I think I've still got a couple of 64180s in this package kicking around somewhere. Thanks for the correction. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 10 11:29:24 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:29:24 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <48241B1F.2728.FB8B009@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805091142.m49BgK3p033887@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48241B1F.2728.FB8B009@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 9, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There is no requriement to boot the system from "disk" >> and making that change can make bring up simpler. > > But that's where the "authentic" aspect fails me. Why run a > "vintage" CP/M system without the experience a disk drive gives you? > You'll be deprived of the "BDOS Err on B:" messages. What fun is > that? > > One might as well run an emulation program on a PeeCee. I wouldn't > be at all surpised to find that someone's done it for the iPod Touch-- > there already exists a NEC 9801 emulator for that platform. I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 10 11:36:50 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:36:50 -0400 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <003101c8b25c$ba9ac660$f750f945@evan> References: <003101c8b25c$ba9ac660$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <54C7717D-1398-443B-882F-8B57831C877B@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2008, at 1:14 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> That may actually be one of my old systems. I got three of them >>>> in the > late 80s, kept two of them for a few years, then sent them along to > new > homes. > > Ours here in NJ came from someone in northern Virginia, who got in > turn got > it from a friend of his at a company called CCI (Computer Consoles > Inc.), > but I don't know the timeframe of that transaction. Ahh well, it was a chance at least. :) There weren't too many System 8000s in private hands in NJ as far as I'm aware. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 10 13:26:02 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 14:26:02 -0400 Subject: Serial cable mysteries Message-ID: <013301c8b2cb$4d3dcc60$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am working on a home brew SBC and am trying to build a serial cable for it. Are there any RS-232 serial port gurus who could help me plumb out a custom cable? The SBC serial connection works but as it currently is configured it only works as 3 wire serial with no flow control (ie, RD, TD, & GND pins). I would very much like to make the serial cable and SBC support hardware flow control. Having the DSR/DTR pins connected should allow it. However the PC is expecting CTS/RTS hardware flow control. My SBC UART is wired so that the RD, TD, DTR, DSR, and GND pins are brought to the serial connector. I probably should have brought CTS & RTS out but it is too late to change it now. I have wired a cable like this which works for 3 wire serial (no flow control) PC DB25 (9 to 25 pin cable) SBC (25 pin female) 2 TD----------------------RD 3 RD----------------------TD 7 GND---------------------GND 6 DSR---------------------DTR 20 DTR---------------------DSR Obviously this cable does not support hardware flow control because when I try to connect with hardware flow control enabled, I can see the SBC boot message on the terminal screen but cannot send characters from the PC to the SBC. So I have been experimenting trying to figure out how to fix this. I got the data sheet for the 16C550 and a serial port breakout box. After much combinations, I discovered that if I connect a jumper between the PC serial port pins 5 (PC CTS) and pin 20 (SBC DSR) then the serial port *DOES* support hardware flow control. At least it appears to. I get the feeling though that I am mixing dissimilar control signals and it is confusing me. My question is, does the above configuration with the PC CTS and SBC DSR connected really use hardware flow control or is it just "faking out" the PC and/or SBC UART? As a follow on, are both sides actually getting hardware flow control or is it just one side or the other? This is my new and improved serial cable with *appears* to support hardware flow control. Is there any way to test this? PC DB25 (9 to 25 pin cable) SBC (25 pin female) 2 TD----------------------RD 3 RD----------------------TD 7 GND---------------------GND 6 DSR---------------------DTR 20 DTR----+----------------DSR 5 CTS----+ Thanks in advance for any help! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 10 13:27:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 11:27:50 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:29:24 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- > resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical > restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything > non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. It's not the ROM-ing of CP/M that disturbs me, but rather the "disklessness" of the thing. Wasn't the whole idea of CP/M originally to give you something to manage files on your floppy drives? I mean, that's what the bulk of the code in CP/M is for-- heaven knows, the support for other I/O is nothing to write home about. If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- type controller added to the design would give that capability with a minimum of support "glue". Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the "thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... Cheers, Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 10 13:43:26 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 14:43:26 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <015301c8b2cd$bb91e640$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:29:24 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- > resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical > restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything > non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. It's not the ROM-ing of CP/M that disturbs me, but rather the "disklessness" of the thing. Wasn't the whole idea of CP/M originally to give you something to manage files on your floppy drives? I mean, that's what the bulk of the code in CP/M is for-- heaven knows, the support for other I/O is nothing to write home about. If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- type controller added to the design would give that capability with a minimum of support "glue". Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the "thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... Cheers, Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck, I hear what you are saying and agree there is something just very disconcerting about diskless CP/M computers. However, CP/M in the CBIOS is really just about block devices and the OS really could care less whether you attach a 8" SSSD floppy, a CF drive or a ROM. It is all the same to the BDOS. My goal here is to *eventually* allow expansion to include IDE and floppy drives. As a matter of fact, the CBIOS does support IDE hard disks already but requires the interface IO card and the ECB backplane to attach it to the SBC. I have an IDE hard disk with CP/M format and some programs on it. My goal with the SBC using ROM/RAM drives was to allow something minimal to operate as a SBC and have some functionality with the option to expand to as desired. I am trying for a modular, low cost approach with easy to build increments. Assuming I get this SBC respun and into manufacturing my next project is to redo my ECB backplane as a PCB. After that will be the disk IO board and bus debuggers which are also made from prototype boards. My Test Prototype home brew computer was built entirely with prototype boards and point to point wiring. It supported IDE drives and even had a NEC765 FDC circuit built in. I wrote some software but never got around to test the FDC part since the machine started experiencing reliability problems which I think trace back to poor grounding and power distribution issues. The new PCB SBC version seems much more solid than the prototype did. The SBC is something which works but gives only limited functionality. If that is enough, people can stop there. If they want more they can plug it into the ECB backplane and add peripheral cards. So far only two peripheral cards exist; the disk IO card and the bus debugger. Hopefully more in the future. I have some ideas kicking around in my head but am concentrating on the SBC for now. Thanks and have a nice weekend! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 10 14:52:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:52:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial cable mysteries In-Reply-To: <013301c8b2cb$4d3dcc60$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> from "Andrew Lynch" at May 10, 8 02:26:02 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > I am working on a home brew SBC and am trying to build a serial cable for > it. Are there any RS-232 serial port gurus who could help me plumb out a > custom cable? > > The SBC serial connection works but as it currently is configured it only > works as 3 wire serial with no flow control (ie, RD, TD, & GND pins). > > I would very much like to make the serial cable and SBC support hardware > flow control. Having the DSR/DTR pins connected should allow it. However > the PC is expecting CTS/RTS hardware flow control. I find it better to think in terms of 'handshake in' and 'handshake out' pins for things like this. Sure it's completlely mangling the RS232 spec, but any use of hardware flow control does that (at least according to the spec I've read). In your case : On the PC, Handshake out is RTS (prssuambly asserted whrn the PC is ready to receive). Handshake in is CTS (the external device asserts this when it is readt for the PC to send something to it) On the SBC, handshake out is DTR (asseted when the SBC is ready to receive I guess), handshake in is DSR (asseted by the PC when it is ready to receiv soemthing from the SBC). > > My SBC UART is wired so that the RD, TD, DTR, DSR, and GND pins are brought > to the serial connector. I probably should have brought CTS & RTS out but > it is too late to change it now. > > I have wired a cable like this which works for 3 wire serial (no flow > control) > > PC DB25 (9 to 25 pin cable) SBC (25 pin female) > 2 TD----------------------RD > 3 RD----------------------TD > 7 GND---------------------GND > 6 DSR---------------------DTR > 20 DTR---------------------DSR That would, I think, work for hardware flow control if the PC was using DSR/DTR flow control, not RTS/CTS. > > Obviously this cable does not support hardware flow control because when I > try to connect with hardware flow control enabled, I can see the SBC boot > message on the terminal screen but cannot send characters from the PC to the > SBC. > > So I have been experimenting trying to figure out how to fix this. I got > the data sheet for the 16C550 and a serial port breakout box. After much > combinations, I discovered that if I connect a jumper between the PC serial > port pins 5 (PC CTS) and pin 20 (SBC DSR) then the serial port *DOES* > support hardware flow control. At least it appears to. I get the feeling > though that I am mixing dissimilar control signals and it is confusing me. > > My question is, does the above configuration with the PC CTS and SBC DSR > connected really use hardware flow control or is it just "faking out" the PC > and/or SBC UART? As a follow on, are both sides actually getting hardware > flow control or is it just one side or the other? > > This is my new and improved serial cable with *appears* to support hardware > flow control. Is there any way to test this? > > PC DB25 (9 to 25 pin cable) SBC (25 pin female) > 2 TD----------------------RD > 3 RD----------------------TD > 7 GND---------------------GND > 6 DSR---------------------DTR > 20 DTR----+----------------DSR > 5 CTS----+ Alas that's 'Faking it' I think. DTR is an output on the PC, it's being sent back to the PC's CTS (which is the handshake in line), so the PC is always being told it can transmit (I assuem DTR is aserted all the time by the PC). And by connecting that to DSR on the SBC, you're telling the SBC that it can send any time it likes. How about the following : PC SBC TxD ---------- RxD RxD ---------- TxD Gnd ---------- Gnd RTS ---------- DSR CTS ---------- DTR DSR--+ DTR--+ -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 10 15:47:36 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 13:47:36 -0700 Subject: Retro DIY CPUs Message-ID: <4825A778.11987.15C4E6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Speaking of Z80 build-it-yourself boards, has anyone had any experience with the Russian PDP-11 clone chips, e.g. KH1801BM4? How difficult are they to obtain and how compatible are they with the real thing? The photos of ones that I've seen have date codes in the 90s, so they can't be that rare. Cheers, Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Sat May 10 16:28:22 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 17:28:22 -0400 Subject: In search of MM57109 by National Semi In-Reply-To: <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48261376.6020907@comcast.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Dan wrote: > >> Would anyone have any of the MM57109 numerical processor chips ? >> > > At one time I had a tube of them, but alas, no longer do. > > Octopart reveals that one of the parts brokers lists them: > > http://www.area51esg.com/search-semiconductorss-capacitors-resistors.htm?part=MM57109N&submit2=Search > > > Thanks for the tip I'll have to see if I have any luck in finding these. =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From bear at typewritten.org Sat May 10 17:14:49 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 15:14:49 -0700 Subject: Miniscribe 6085 Message-ID: <869B1C3C-5711-4BEC-9FAF-FC4A215BBB4C@typewritten.org> Can somebody with a Miniscribe 6085 tell me the value (or at the very least the color code) of the inductor near CR16, RP17, Q17, C59, etc. ? (the actual location marking on my board is under the component). It's at the edge of the board, toward the back of the drive. Mine is charred and unreadable. Thanks! ok bear From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 10 18:16:29 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:16:29 -0700 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: <54C7717D-1398-443B-882F-8B57831C877B@neurotica.com> References: <003101c8b25c$ba9ac660$f750f945@evan> <54C7717D-1398-443B-882F-8B57831C877B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On May 10, 2008, at 1:14 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> That may actually be one of my old systems. I got three of them >>>>> in the >> late 80s, kept two of them for a few years, then sent them along to >> new >> homes. >> >> Ours here in NJ came from someone in northern Virginia, who got in >> turn got >> it from a friend of his at a company called CCI (Computer Consoles >> Inc.), >> but I don't know the timeframe of that transaction. > > Ahh well, it was a chance at least. :) There weren't too many > System 8000s in private hands in NJ as far as I'm aware. > Hi How much memory did the System 8000 require to run? I wonder if the code could be adapted to run on an Olivetti M20. These could have 512K of RAM for the what they did in memory management. The Black & White display only took 16K of that space. I've added a hard disk to mine so I can run larger code than would be practical on a floppy only system. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get Free (PRODUCT) RED? Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 10 19:50:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:50:33 -0400 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: <4825669A.15749.14C784DF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4825669A.15749.14C784DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805102050.33426.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 May 2008 12:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > PCBs with edge connectors really drive the costs up because specialized > > prototype boards are required or if you manufacture the PCBs using edge > > connectors and gold fingers are extra. > > It's very strange--at one time Radio Shack (under their "Archer" > brand) sold 22/44 position edge-connector prototyping cards, in > phenolic, rather than FR4 and with tinned, rather than gold-plated > fingers. Vector had similar prototype cards as well. It's kind of > hard to believe that they're all gone now, since at one time, they > were very common. I still have some of those, and maybe one or two of the connectors used with them, and they did have a variety of them out over the years. One was some kind of blue-colored material, some were indeed FR4 or similar, hole patterns varied all over the place, some had buses and some didn't. I may still have a rack cabinet that had a bunch of stots for those, or at least the shorter ones, it wouldn't take the taller ones without them sticking out of the top. I haven't looked at what Vector offers at any time in recent years, are you sayng that they don't offer that kind of card any more? Oh, and these aren't STD bus, which is 56 pins rather than 22/44. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat May 10 19:56:56 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:56:56 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/80 Magic Smoke Message-ID: <48264458.5090307@hawkmountain.net> Tried to power up a Sun 3/80 mainboard... Inductor L0500 (right near the power input) (I assume this is an inductor by the L0500 marking on the PCB) smoked.... (pink smoke no less) Anyone familiar with the 3/80 to give an idea of why this might have smoked. Board appears in excellent condition, no foreign objects on the board, no sign of any shorts that I can see. Would like to rescue this board. If it was a PC I'd look for bulging electrolytics... Anyone got a schematic for the 3/80 ? (I've never seen any Sun schematics). -- Curt From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 10 19:52:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:52:38 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <48256828.19314.14CD9877@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48256828.19314.14CD9877@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805102052.38169.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 May 2008 12:17, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Eric Smith" > > > > The lead pitch of shrink DIP packages is 0.070 inch (1.78 mm). I > > haven't seen any 0.050 (1.27 mm) inch DIPs. Shrink DIPs were popular > > with Japanese semi companies, but never caught on very well with US > > companies, most of which skipped those and went straight to PLCC and > > PQFP packages. > > Right you are--I dug out a couple of shrink DIPs and they are indeed > 0.070 inch. Unless you're going right to PCB, these are a real pain > to deal with today--hard to find sockets, odd spacing, etc. I think > I've still got a couple of 64180s in this package kicking around > somewhere. > > Thanks for the correction. I haven't measured them but I do have about four or so HD6303Y (Hitachi CMOS 68xx variant with bunches of built-in peripheral stuff) that's in a package like that. I managed to score *one* socket of the wire-wrap variety as a sample at some trade show I was at years ago, but am not 100% sure that it's standard 0.025" wrap posts, in which case I'm still screwed on being able to do anything with them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 10 20:20:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805102052.38169.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48256828.19314.14CD9877@cclist.sydex.com> <200805102052.38169.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <35198.71.139.37.220.1210468836.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Roy wrote: > I haven't measured them but I do have about four or so HD6303Y (Hitachi > CMOS 68xx variant with bunches of built-in peripheral stuff) that's in a > package like that. I managed to score *one* socket of the wire-wrap > variety as a sample at some trade show I was at years ago, but am not > 100% sure that it's standard 0.025" wrap posts, in which case I'm still > screwed on being able to do anything with them. All the WW shrink-DIP sockets I've seen used standard 0.025" square posts. Example: Mill-Max p/n 127-93-664-41-002000 (two level) or 127-93-664-41-003000 (three-level). They cost over $20 each though, and they're not stocked by the distributors, so you'd have to order at least 56 pieces. If I really wanted to wire-wrap to a 64 SDIP, I'd get a non-WW SDIP socket, which are readily available and relatively inexpensive, and plug that into 64 individual WW socket pins. You can either buy the WW socket pins separately, or just remove them from normal WW DIP sockets. In the past, I've made my own WW PGA sockets by knocking the pins out of normal WW DIP sockets (by putting a copper tube over the pin, then hitting it with a hammer), then pressing those into perf board with the holes drilled out to just less than the pin diameter. I think Richard Ottosen came up with that method. Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 10 20:57:22 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:57:22 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/80 Magic Smoke In-Reply-To: <48264458.5090307@hawkmountain.net> References: <48264458.5090307@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200805102157.22797.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 May 2008 20:56, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Tried to power up a Sun 3/80 mainboard... > > Inductor L0500 (right near the power input) (I assume this is an > inductor by the L0500 marking on the PCB) smoked.... (pink smoke no less) > > Anyone familiar with the 3/80 to give an idea of why this might have > smoked. > > Board appears in excellent condition, no foreign objects on the board, > no sign of any shorts that I can see. If that's indeed an inductor maybe there is a short that isn't obvious? > Would like to rescue this board. If it was a PC I'd look for bulging > electrolytics... Any tantalum caps on that board? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 10 21:00:30 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 22:00:30 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <35198.71.139.37.220.1210468836.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200805102052.38169.rtellason@verizon.net> <35198.71.139.37.220.1210468836.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200805102200.30328.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 May 2008 21:20, Eric Smith wrote: > Roy wrote: > > I haven't measured them but I do have about four or so HD6303Y (Hitachi > > CMOS 68xx variant with bunches of built-in peripheral stuff) that's in a > > package like that. I managed to score *one* socket of the wire-wrap > > variety as a sample at some trade show I was at years ago, but am not > > 100% sure that it's standard 0.025" wrap posts, in which case I'm still > > screwed on being able to do anything with them. > > All the WW shrink-DIP sockets I've seen used standard 0.025" square posts. Good to know... > Example: Mill-Max p/n 127-93-664-41-002000 (two level) or > 127-93-664-41-003000 (three-level). They cost over $20 each though, > and they're not stocked by the distributors, so you'd have to order at > least 56 pieces. Or find another trade show and scarf up some more samples... :-) > If I really wanted to wire-wrap to a 64 SDIP, I'd get a non-WW SDIP > socket, which are readily available and relatively inexpensive, I haven't seen them anywhere, but then I haven't looked. These chips were originally soldered in to boards on which I did upgrades -- in each case I removed the chip and a 27C256 and installed a replacement chip that had masked ROM onboard. > and plug that into 64 individual WW socket pins. Good idea. > You can either buy the WW socket pins separately, or just remove them from > normal WW DIP sockets. > > In the past, I've made my own WW PGA sockets by knocking the pins out > of normal WW DIP sockets (by putting a copper tube over the pin, then > hitting it with a hammer), then pressing those into perf board with the > holes drilled out to just less than the pin diameter. I think Richard > Ottosen came up with that method. I'm still looking at having to drill out some holes in the perfboard I end up using that's going to correspond to that weird spacing, though. Which can wait until I get around to the drill-press accessory for my dremel... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 10 21:27:34 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805102200.30328.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200805102052.38169.rtellason@verizon.net> <35198.71.139.37.220.1210468836.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805102200.30328.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44608.71.139.37.220.1210472854.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Roy wrote: > I'm still looking at having to drill out some holes in the perfboard I end > up using that's going to correspond to that weird spacing, though. I just cut two slots and epoxied the socket in place. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 10 22:02:42 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 23:02:42 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <44608.71.139.37.220.1210472854.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200805102200.30328.rtellason@verizon.net> <44608.71.139.37.220.1210472854.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200805102302.42923.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 May 2008 22:27, Eric Smith wrote: > Roy wrote: > > I'm still looking at having to drill out some holes in the perfboard I > > end up using that's going to correspond to that weird spacing, though. > > I just cut two slots and epoxied the socket in place. That thought occurred to me too, which means I need to get some of those itty bitty little saw blades or something similar for the dremel. Either way I gotta buy more than I have now. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 10 22:51:43 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:51:43 -0700 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: <200805102050.33426.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4825669A.15749.14C784DF@cclist.sydex.com> <200805102050.33426.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi I used to make systems with std bus boards. We used board with a Z80. These had a serial port and some parallel port as well. I forget the name of the manufacture. I had a Forth running on them that I implemented from a F-83 version. We made many of our own parallel I/O cards. It seems like the manufactures of these thought 16 outputs was a lot. We made boards with as many as 64 ins or outs. We had an extended card that could sample 32 RTDs on an interrupt driven system. We'd load as many as 6 of these cards on a single Z80 and still have it run a front panel. I still have a number of boards and maybe 3 or four racks. I expect to play with them some day. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get Free (PRODUCT) RED? Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 10 23:07:12 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:07:12 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805102302.42923.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805100650.m4A6nvRI049430@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200805102200.30328.rtellason@verizon.net> <44608.71.139.37.220.1210472854.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805102302.42923.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > On Saturday 10 May 2008 22:27, Eric Smith wrote: >> Roy wrote: >>> I'm still looking at having to drill out some holes in the perfboard I >>> end up using that's going to correspond to that weird spacing, though. >> >> I just cut two slots and epoxied the socket in place. > > That thought occurred to me too, which means I need to get some of those itty > bitty little saw blades or something similar for the dremel. Either way I > gotta buy more than I have now. :-) > Hi The metal blades will dull quickly on fiberglass boards. The cutting disk will work but tend to gum up. Do remember to clamp the work and use both hands to hold the dremel. I was using one of the metal blades once and thought I could do just a little more touch up. I was holding the work piece in one hand and the dremel in the other. The blade caught in the work piece and the blade ran across the back of my finger for about an inch and a half before cutting through my nail and around to the pad of my finger, for about another half inch. It happened so fast that it was all over in a small fraction of a second( It made a bang sound ). I feel a little foolish but it was a lesson learned. The dremel is a great tool but must be treated with respect. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get Free (PRODUCT) RED? Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 From evan at snarc.net Sun May 11 00:36:09 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 01:36:09 -0400 Subject: Classic Gaming Expo cancelled Message-ID: <018c01c8b328$ec151ed0$f750f945@evan> http://www.cgexpo.com/ Nothing to do with me, just passing along the message. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 10 07:26:41 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 08:26:41 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0N000ZQJUNOPLB@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RE: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:36:31 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 07:50:46 -0400 >> From: Allison > >> I can make the boot process easier as you can plop the rom in >> mappable space. The usual arguement is can you get a Z180 >> in a package most people are willing to deal with (64pin dip)? > >I wouldn't want to deal with the DIP as it's a "skinny" DIP with >0.050 pin spacing, unlike, say, the 68K. While it probably makes >little difference on a PCB, it requires an adapter if you're >prototyping--and sockets are hard to find. It's easier to use the 68 >pin PLCC to keep the spacing--smaller footprint too. Cant argue with that but many are put off by that and discard playing with Z180. >> The latter is the shadow rom many have refered to. I usualy do that. >> And make the rom BIG so not only can I map it in when I want but also >> access part of it (ROMDRIVE). > >I believe the Amstrad Joyce uses the printer controller to force the >necessary boot code onto the Z80 bus. (Tony?) At least I've never >seen a boot ROM on a Joyce PCB. Ther are a lot of way s to stuff in code, the real trick is doing with few parts as wirewrapping or other build strategies are labor intensive and "kitting with a board" is cost sensitive. >> There is no requriement to boot the system from "disk" >> and making that change can make bring up simpler. > >But that's where the "authentic" aspect fails me. Why run a >"vintage" CP/M system without the experience a disk drive gives you? >You'll be deprived of the "BDOS Err on B:" messages. What fun is >that? Do a A>:ASM BIGFIL.AAB and forget the disk in B: and you remember why you hate that. But then I wa an early adptor of hard disk and from late '80 on had at least a 5mb drive to avoid that. Is that less authentic? By the end of 1981 I'd built a system with romdisk and ramdisk and no floppy or har disk. Was that authentic? What is authentic? To me if the platform has 8080, 8085, Z80, Z180/64180, Z280, or NSC800 it's running on real iron. Of course if you have a Z380 or eZ80 in native mode or a NEC V20 in 8080 mode those may count too. But what about 68000 or Z8000 runing CP/M they exist too? The problem there being they are file system compatable but neither can ran any of the vast library of CP/M 80 code base. >One might as well run an emulation program on a PeeCee. I wouldn't >be at all surpised to find that someone's done it for the iPod Touch-- >there already exists a NEC 9801 emulator for that platform. I'd argue that CP/M on an iPOD is not close to a useful experince. For one without a keyboard the interaction is via GUI that could never have existed back when on anything Z80. That falls into cool hack catagory right up there with using a WRT54GL as a wireless web server. There are many emulators the classic ones and some really useful ones too. I'd argue for playing with aps a SIM on PC is valid enough. I'd also for hacking hardware a sim on PC is bogus. I never figured out a way to simulate a board of random logic to emulate a process control card adn plug that into a sim complete with simulated stimulus. For me and I may be atypical I use both. I use the PC with MyZ80 or Daveid Dunfields N*Horizon and of course SIMH as software test platforms and even as portable CP/M when I've forgotten to bring my PX-8. But I also use those SIMs to build real platforms with 8085 or Z80. And there is a different feel, real or perceived, to running on real iron even if the iron is a 10mhz Z80 with 64k of ram and 512kb of ram disk and 32mb of CF or my NS* Horizon built in '78 with a 32mb hard disk, 5.25" floppy and 8" floppy. >From a modern perspective, regardless of the hardware used be it CF or a SA800 programming the BIOS is a mystery or stopper for many as for all the people out there writing code few ever get that close to the metal. That makes the real iron a challange. >> Deblocking is not too mysterious. The real missing bit in the >> Alteraion guide is how the BDOS telegraphs the need to preread >> and when to skip it. > >Page 14, section 12 entitled "Sector Blocking and Deblocking" in the >Alteration Guide covers it pretty well. I remember being relieved to >find the information after I struggled with 1.4 not having any such >mechanism. I don't think it was in 2.0 either, but I can check if >anyone's curious. > 1.4 really didn't even do a DISK bios, it was embedded in the bdos. the bios for 1.4 was only terminal, punch reader and printer IO. Yes, it ws a pain to interface any new disk to it. It is in 2.0 (deblocking). However their explanation is thin and some of the fine details have to be infered by really reading the code. It was very mysterious when I did it for the first time back in '80 when I was working with a early sample 765 DD FDC. It was later that Andy Johnson-Laird wrote The Programmers CP/M Handbook which covers the subject in much greater detail and has two BIOS exammples that are very commented. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck From paul0926 at comcast.net Sat May 10 11:37:29 2008 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:37:29 -0600 Subject: IBM 129 manual In-Reply-To: <48250DD7.4070202@bitsavers.org> References: <48250DD7.4070202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On May 9, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Anyone know there there > > might be a manual? > > docs now up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/129 > Thanks, Al !! And thank you, Mike, for the source for ribbons. Paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 10 14:15:33 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 15:15:33 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0O00HK52S2RL6C@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:29:24 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On May 9, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> There is no requriement to boot the system from "disk" >>> and making that change can make bring up simpler. >> >> But that's where the "authentic" aspect fails me. Why run a >> "vintage" CP/M system without the experience a disk drive gives you? >> You'll be deprived of the "BDOS Err on B:" messages. What fun is >> that? >> >> One might as well run an emulation program on a PeeCee. I wouldn't >> be at all surpised to find that someone's done it for the iPod Touch-- >> there already exists a NEC 9801 emulator for that platform. > > I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- >resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical >restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything >non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. Worked for the PX8 and likely a few others. Actually the real and most likely reason is you needed 8k or so of rom and back when Eprom (or enough eprom) that size was a bit later and even then expensive for a while. However by around 84ish 8 and 16k parts were getting reasonable and that is plenty enough space. Besides booting from rom is like booting from disk, the differnce is the rom is read only and doesn't rotate. Oh it is simpler. As to "BDOS Err on B:" you can still have that if the system only boots from rom and still expects a floppy drive (or other removable media). Personally that is one of the error messages that I can do without. ;) Allison > > -Dave >> > > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 11 04:11:16 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 05:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805110914.FAA21275@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in > being diskless? All depends on just what aspects of the vintage experience you're after. I daresay some people just want to run those old executables they've got lying around. Some of them might even enjoy building hardware but wouldn't enjoy building/finding emulator software. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 11 07:23:13 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 08:23:13 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- >> resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical >> restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything >> non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. > > It's not the ROM-ing of CP/M that disturbs me, but rather the > "disklessness" of the thing. Wasn't the whole idea of CP/M > originally to give you something to manage files on your floppy > drives? I mean, that's what the bulk of the code in CP/M is for-- > heaven knows, the support for other I/O is nothing to write home > about. > > If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in > being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- > type controller added to the design would give that capability with a > minimum of support "glue". > > Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module > to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the > "thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. Well I wasn't talking about a diskless system...only one in which CP/M itself was in ROM. > I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably > because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were considered current technology. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 11 07:24:06 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 08:24:06 -0400 Subject: Zilog Zeus In-Reply-To: References: <003101c8b25c$ba9ac660$f750f945@evan> <54C7717D-1398-443B-882F-8B57831C877B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4826E566.7020606@neurotica.com> dwight elvey wrote: > How much memory did the System 8000 require to run? > I wonder if the code could be adapted to run on an Olivetti M20. > These could have 512K of RAM for the what they did in memory > management. The Black & White display only took 16K of that > space. > I've added a hard disk to mine so I can run larger code than > would be practical on a floppy only system. I'm fairly certain mine had 512KB, but that was a long time ago. I don't know what the minimum requirement was. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun May 11 08:01:31 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:01:31 +0000 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080511130131.GA14609@usap.gov> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 08:23:13AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well I wasn't talking about a diskless system...only one in which > CP/M itself was in ROM. I personally find the idea intriguing, and I am about to cobble up a system from (nearly) scratch. I used Kaypros and the like, back in the day, and really won't miss floppies (not that there's an FDC chip within 3000 miles I could slap on this thing, anyway). I don't mind the idea of stuffing "the OS" in ROM vs loading off of removable media since I doubt I'll want to upgrade. I want to run a few CP/M-80 programs, and that's about it. > >I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably > >because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... > > I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even > here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were > considered current technology. I was a kid when S-100 machines were "in", but, as came up earlier in this thread, I did hit the Osborne/Kaypro CP/M era. I consider myself quite fortunate that I've gotten to program PDP-11s on two different jobs right at the tail end of their heyday (I was 18-20 at the time). I also consider myself fortunate that I was working at a place that supported VAX/BSD customers in addition to our VAX/VMS customers, so I was able to pick up some UNIX skills nearly 25 years ago. When folks bandy about "All the World's a VAX", it really means something to me (I learned C from K&R on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD, so I _know_ how easy it is to write non-portable code). I do run things inemulation, but I also enjoy running things on real iron. Right now, I have a modern Elf within reach, as well as an SBC6120. The SBC6120 boots off of CF... no floppies, no 1/3 HP rotating media, but there's still a real 12-bit processor on the board. I don't consider that emulation in the slightest, even if my "disks" don't rotate. OTOH, I also have, at home, "real" PDP-8s with real DEC-made disks; they just aren't so portable as to be worth hauling down here. Same goes for a CP/M machine - I'm working on something smaller than a princess phone. Quite portable compared to an S-100 or an Osborne. Just my take on why I mix classic CPUs with modern peripherals... runs the original software, weighs a lot less. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-May-2008 at 12:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.6 F (-62.0 C) Windchill -108.3 F (-77.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.8 kts Grid 42 Barometer 682.8 mb (10523 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 11 08:14:25 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 09:14:25 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4826F131.1030105@arachelian.com> Tony Duell wrote: > As I think most of you know, I have a fairly diverse collection of > classic computers (I suspect some others do too). > ... > > Must not make use of any flow control lines on the RS232 port, since some > of my machines don't support them. > > ... > Using classic, or at least repairable, hardwre is a bonus :-) > > ... > I said 'RS232'. I mean asynchronous serial, of course :-). If somebody > has a solution for TTL or 3.3V level serial ports, I can trivially > convert the signal levels > > ... > I've been looking at some of the license-exempt radio modules, but they > either are half-duplex or amke use of the flow control lines (typically > they buffer bytes internally, then de-assert a flow control line > while they pack up that data and send it to the other end). > > Any other ideas? > > Well, here's what I'd do, which you might not agree with. I'd wire up as much of the house with plain old CAT-5 cable, and use RS232 to CAT-5 conversion plugs. Then I'd have either a patch panel or a terminal server in a central place. If you need to connect two machines, connect an ethernet cable between two ports of the patch panel. Alternatively, if you want them to talk to a modern machine, you could either connect the modern machine to the patch panel, or if you don't want to bother plugging things in all the time, plug all of the ports into the terminal server. (Finding someone with an old terminal server they're wanting to upgrade is a possibility here. There's also a slightly better option of finding classic Hostess multi-port serial cards in ISA form and running them on an old XT with say Xenix or an early BSD or Linux and using that as both storage server and as a terminal server - you could use the rzsz or kermit programs to transfer data for example. The guys that used to run BBS's on PC's might still have these boards in storage for example.) For areas where you don't want to wire, or can't wire through walls, you could go wireless. I'd use cheap game console ethernet to 802.11b converters connected to single port terminal servers - or if there are several machines next to each other in an area where you can't wire from a distance, a multi-port terminal server. While you might think that some places might be hard or impossible to wire, if you look a bit deeper, you might be able to go through the attic, a basement, parallel or through heating/cooling ducts, or even outside the house. In this case, I'd strongly suggest shielded CAT-5. This is how I've wired my house for ethernet - I moved in before the proliferation of WiFi, so it wasn't a consideration. I ran shielded Cat 5 from the attic which is my computer room all over the house. Several lines went down next to the central staircase - just stapled to the stairs, down through the basement and into the den and living room, others went through the ceiling of the garage into the kitchen and along side the walls. (Besides, despite the low wattage of 802.11b/g, I'm not so sure I'd want my kids bombarded with what are essentially microwaves. Had 802.11a been a bit more successful, I might have gone that route since it's outside of the resonance frequency of water.) Perhaps some combination of these things will work best - personally, for your specific project I'd favor the CAT-5 with one (or more) ports to each machine going to a central patch panel as it offers the highest flexibility. Adding a terminal server or several would depend on how much of a need you'd have for it and whether you could find agreeable ones. Some of the early terminal servers did stupid things such as sending a break signal to every port when they were power cycled, these caused havoc to Sun machines (and I imagine anything else that dropped into a debugger or equivalent) when they received these on their consoles. Others won't let you tie two ports together, and others won't work at low speeds. So perhaps a PC with several multi-port serial boards is best. From ray at arachelian.com Sun May 11 08:47:33 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 09:47:33 -0400 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4826F8F5.90705@arachelian.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Thypicallyt they were used with IBM-compatible PCs and plugged into the > serial ports. There were many schemes, but the simplest was something > like : > > > > TxD o---->|--------+----------------o Network line > | > RxD o--------------+ > | > DTR o-/\/\/--------+ > > SG o-------------------------------o Network ground/common > > This reminds me of the good ol'e AppleTalk, later renamed to LocalTalk once they had their ethernet version. I had a very nice, small network at home, long before ethernet, and it worked very nicely. Connected a Mac XL, IIcx, a PC, and a TI microlaser printer, all by phone cabling. I had to buy something called a CoActive plug which seemed to me to be a parallel port to Z8250 interface (since PC UARTs wouldn't go as high as 230Kbps) and had custom software to talk to AppleTalk. Of course, filenames were munged at 8.3, since this was the good old (or rather bad old) DOS days. It's funny how they use CSMA/CA on this network instead of CSMA/CD, and when ethernet came out, they continued to use the same protocol until nearly modern days where they switched to encapsulating Appletalk packets inside TCP/IP frames. I was almost like they were re-inventing Ethernet. :-) I suppose they could have actually ran ethernet over phone cables, but probably someone thought they had a better way to control collisions; perhaps they did. Of course there was nothing but trouble with early Ethernet switches and EtherTalk since they continued to use CSMA/CA for quite some time. I guess there's nothing quite like the not invented here syndrome. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 11 09:24:53 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:24:53 -0400 Subject: Early Appletalk; was Re: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <4826F8F5.90705@arachelian.com> References: <4826F8F5.90705@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <23253.1210515893@mini> Ray Arachelian wrote: > >It's funny how they use CSMA/CA on this network instead of CSMA/CD, and >when ethernet came out, they continued to use the same protocol until >nearly modern days where they switched to encapsulating Appletalk >packets inside TCP/IP frames. In fairness it would be proper to separate the mac (physical) layer from the network layer. All the network layer needed was unreliable datagram delivery and broadcasts. Both Localtalk and Ethernet provide that. Collision detect was not really possible on localtalk, unlike ethernet. But I would argue that CA and CD are refinements which affect maximum utilization, not gross access to the wire. And both rely on an appropriate back-off algorithm to work correctly. (it's fun to go read the original AlohaNet papers and the DIX blue book for more on that subject) >I was almost like they were re-inventing Ethernet. :-) When Sidhu started on that project ethernet was still pretty nascent. And ethernet was thought of as too expensive and complex (which was true, I think, when concidering a classic macintosh). And at that time there were many many protocols-of-the-day. It wasn't clear at all which would be dominant. IPX, DecNet, TCP/IP, SNA, ISO ... >I suppose they >could have actually ran ethernet over phone cables, but probably someone >thought they had a better way to control collisions; perhaps they did. I think it was a cost issue. You can't beat the SCC's fm mode (and the internal pll). They added a little RTS 'beacon' to reserve the wire which was part of their 'collision avoidance' scheme. It worked pretty well if you dedicated a cpu to it. >Of course there was nothing but trouble with early Ethernet switches and >EtherTalk since they continued to use CSMA/CA for quite some time. I think that was a different problem; Appletalk V1 is very "chatty" and uses broadcasts a lot. Many early networks were bridged and this caused problems. I could go on and on, but localized broadcast based discovery protocols don't work well over long haul bridged networks, nor do broadcast based distance vector routing protocols (i.e. NBP and RTMP). heh. I once crashed (I kid you not) several hundred VAX's with a single NBP broadcast packet. Bridged networks are not my friend. >I guess there's nothing quite like the not invented here syndrome. Certainly some of that, but more in Appletalk v2 and than original Appletalk. To my mind the original appletalk was simple and elegant - a good fit for the system... -brad From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 11 09:29:39 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 07:29:39 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <0K0N000ZQJUNOPLB@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K0N000ZQJUNOPLB@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net ---snip--- > > What is authentic? To me if the platform has 8080, 8085, > Z80, Z180/64180, Z280, or NSC800 it's running on real iron. Of > course if you have a Z380 or eZ80 in native mode or a NEC V20 > in 8080 mode those may count too. > > But what about 68000 or Z8000 runing CP/M they exist too? The > problem there being they are file system compatable but neither > can ran any of the vast library of CP/M 80 code base. > > Hi For the 68K and Z8K machines, people were expected to write all there applications in "C". It was the primary language of the time and was suppose to create portable applications. The CP/M-8000 that I have running on the M20 came with some game code ( I forget the game ) that I assume was written for the 68K. one could compile it on the Z8K and ran it to show that one could write applications once for both environments. Of course, the PC had spelled the end of anything but a x86 processor. The thought of portable code never caught on. Even on PCs there were too many changes in hardware to keep up with. Only the simplest applications were portable. Simulation of 8080 code was not quite practical then because of speed. If the other processors had held their own, one may have had original CP/M applications running along with the the more updated code. Of course, this would have been bad for the software companies. Actually the software companies like the hardware to change regularly. It meant that one needed the latest version and they could sell bug fixes instead of doing it for free( The M$ method ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1. http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun May 11 10:16:18 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:16:18 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805110705.m4B75MX0064589@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805110705.m4B75MX0064589@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001301c8b379$f6b57140$6500a8c0@barry> RE: "1.4 really didn't even do a DISK bios, it was embedded in the bdos. the bios for 1.4 was only terminal, punch reader and printer IO. Yes, it was a pain to interface any new disk to it." Allison, that is simply not true. The diskette format (DPH and DBP) was imbedded in the BDOS, but the disk I/O was in the BIOS, more or less like 2.x. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 11 11:08:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 09:08:20 -0700 Subject: STD bus cards In-Reply-To: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4826B784.31581.19EB92E8@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:50:33 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Oh, and these aren't STD bus, which is 56 pins rather than 22/44. :-) Yeah, I know. My wondering was that there was an abundant common source of small-profile cards that might be adapted to an 8-bit bus and wondering if they were still common at all. Although there are fewer pins, I do remember mounting a small "sub- bus" in my MITS 8800 using these as a "cheap" expansion for little peripheral projects where an S-100 card was overkill. I basically brought the 8 bits of data and 8 bits of address out with the I/O port handshaking lines to a card. Most peripherals don't need access to RAM I/O space anyway. Does anyone recall what the original application of the 22/44 cards was? I suspect industrial control or maybe telco switching. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 11 11:19:52 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 09:19:52 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4826BA38.15244.19F61EBA@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:07:12 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > The metal blades will dull quickly on fiberglass boards. The cutting > disk will work but tend to gum up. You can do a lot of damage with a Dremel, the big problem being that it's hand-held. This is one case where I might be tempted to use a jeweler's frame saw and use as many blades (they're very cheap) as needed to get the job done. Alternatively, a small carbide bit in a table-mounted router would do the job in a jiffy. Personally, I'd just find out if the IC was available in PLCC. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 11 12:24:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:24:57 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4826C979.21541.1A31B461@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 08:26:41 -0400 > From: Allison > Do a A>:ASM BIGFIL.AAB and forget the disk in B: and you remember > why you hate that. Or doing "ASM BIGFIL.ASM" or even just "ASM". I got into the habit of using M80/L80 as soon as I got my hands on a copy. DRI assemblers (even RMAC) weren't any great shucks. > But then I wa an early adptor of hard disk and from late '80 on > had at least a 5mb drive to avoid that. Is that less authentic? > By the end of 1981 I'd built a system with romdisk and ramdisk > and no floppy or har disk. Was that authentic? I think I failed to make my point well enough. Almost all the people who worked with CP/M initially did so in the context of floppy disks. Someone attempting to duplicate that experience would get a less-than- authentic experience without that aspect, in much the same way one would be deprived of the experience of big mainframe iron without the machine room noise level. Could you get a true experience of running OS/360 without a card reader? An authentic experience consists of all aspects of the experience, not just the convenient or pleasant ones. Without the whole, one gets a "dude ranch" picture. > What is authentic? To me if the platform has 8080, 8085, > Z80, Z180/64180, Z280, or NSC800 it's running on real iron. Of > course if you have a Z380 or eZ80 in native mode or a NEC V20 > in 8080 mode those may count too. No, one gets extra bugs with a V20 that the 8080 never had. > 1.4 really didn't even do a DISK bios, it was embedded in the bdos. > the bios for 1.4 was only terminal, punch reader and printer IO. > Yes, it ws a pain to interface any new disk to it. Not according to my archives. While it's true that the 1.4 BIOS lacked the configurability of 2.0/2.2 (i.e. there were no DPBs, etc. to define your own disk format), it contained the disk access code (e.g. SELDSK, SETTRK, etc.) If you'd like, I can send you a copy of the CBIOS that came with my Tarbell controller, complete with Processor Technology video board driver (which I didn't use). It's remarkable in one aspect--it allows for simulated 2-drive operation on one drive by prompting for the A: or B: floppy when required. CP/M 1.4 had the right idea--it supported only one diskette format, so if you had more than 250K of storage, you were pretty much forced to accommodate this by simulating multiple floppy drives. (Wasn't there an early system that used an IMI "shoebox" drive for the Apple II that simulated about 50 floppies?) Where things got out of hand is when DRI said "Roll your own" with no guidance as to disk format standards. > It is in 2.0 (deblocking). However their explanation is thin and > some of the fine details have to be infered by really reading the > code. It was very mysterious when I did it for the first time back > in '80 when I was working with a early sample 765 DD FDC. It was > later that Andy Johnson-Laird wrote The Programmers CP/M Handbook > which covers the subject in much greater detail and has two BIOS > exammples that are very commented. It's been years since I've chatted with Andy. My acquaintance with him began after his book, however and I hadn't even realized that he'd done anything with CP/M. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 11 12:35:57 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:35:57 -0400 Subject: STD bus cards In-Reply-To: <4826B784.31581.19EB92E8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4826B784.31581.19EB92E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805111335.58724.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 11 May 2008 12:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 20:50:33 -0400 > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > > > Oh, and these aren't STD bus, which is 56 pins rather than 22/44. :-) > > Yeah, I know. My wondering was that there was an abundant common > source of small-profile cards that might be adapted to an 8-bit bus > and wondering if they were still common at all. > > Although there are fewer pins, I do remember mounting a small "sub- > bus" in my MITS 8800 using these as a "cheap" expansion for little > peripheral projects where an S-100 card was overkill. I basically > brought the 8 bits of data and 8 bits of address out with the I/O > port handshaking lines to a card. Most peripherals don't need access > to RAM I/O space anyway. I had idle thoughts of something of the sort, but never got the whole way through thinking about it... > Does anyone recall what the original application of the 22/44 cards > was? I suspect industrial control or maybe telco switching. I didn't know there was an original application.. The gear I had that gave me that cabinet was telco, I think. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 11 12:38:16 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:38:16 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <4826BA38.15244.19F61EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805111306.m4BD5xNd068067@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4826BA38.15244.19F61EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805111338.16853.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 11 May 2008 12:19, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:07:12 -0700 > > From: dwight elvey > > > > The metal blades will dull quickly on fiberglass boards. The cutting > > disk will work but tend to gum up. > > You can do a lot of damage with a Dremel, the big problem being that > it's hand-held. This is one case where I might be tempted to use a > jeweler's frame saw and use as many blades (they're very cheap) as > needed to get the job done. Got one of those, but no blades at the present time, I oughta do something about that one of these days... > Alternatively, a small carbide bit in a table-mounted router would do the > job in a jiffy. I might get a router-type bit for the dremel, too. > Personally, I'd just find out if the IC was available in PLCC. The whole point was that I already have four of these chips sitting around. If that weren't the case I wouldn't be tempted to explore an otherwise obscure processor like that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 14:06:10 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 12:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080511120434.P75812@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 11 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even > here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were > considered current technology. What would we have used in those days? Oh. I guess that you're talking about the youngsters. From earl at baugh.org Sun May 11 14:57:17 2008 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl D. Baugh Jr.) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 15:57:17 -0400 Subject: Early Appletalk; was Re: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805111700.m4BH0imP070723@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805111700.m4BH0imP070723@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> I guess there's nothing quite like the not invented here syndrome. > > Certainly some of that, but more in Appletalk v2 and than original > Appletalk. To my mind the original appletalk was simple and elegant > - a > good fit for the system... At a company I worked at we looked at Ethernet at the time, and it simply was way too pricey compared to AppleTalk at the time. Phone wire was cheap, and the office spaces we had were already wired up for two phone jacks, so it simply was a matter of isolating the punch down blocks for which jacks to use. (Luckily the folks who wired up the spaces put all the even numbered jacks on the same blocks, odds on the others... ) For the cost of one ethernet card (for the one machine we had that actually could take one) we wired up two offices, probably a couple hundred machines. (Mostly Mac's of course... but ultimately a few Caymen Gator boxes to bridge to the small ethernet segments that supported our Sun boxes...which had ethernet built in..) It was chatty, protocol wise, but a very cost effective way to network things at the time... I've actually got a NEW in the box Farallon PhoneNet (which was yet another name for it..) Star Controller sitting here. (I tried to sell it on EBay recently but apparently nobody has any of these networks that I can find. ) It's about to go into the recycler pile... (if someone is interested, drop me a line...) Earl From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 11 15:18:28 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:18:28 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <20080511120434.P75812@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> <20080511120434.P75812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 11, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, >> even >> here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were >> considered current technology. > > What would we have used in those days? > > Oh. I guess that you're talking about the youngsters. Yep. There seems to be a big assumption (at least elsewhere) that anybody who is "into retrocomputing" has just gotten into it recently. Here, we have at least quite a few people who were into (say) PDP-11s when they were current technology, and at some point in the past that activity and interest automatically became a part of the retrocomputing world. How bizarre. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 16:24:26 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 14:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> <20080511120434.P75812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080511142313.S75812@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 11 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yep. There seems to be a big assumption (at least elsewhere) that > anybody who is "into retrocomputing" has just gotten into it > recently. Here, we have at least quite a few people who were into > (say) PDP-11s when they were current technology, and at some point > in the past that activity and interest automatically became a part of > the retrocomputing world. How bizarre. I guess that I'm not really into retrocomputing; I'm just seriously out-of-date. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 11 16:30:18 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 14:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> <20080511120434.P75812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 11, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, > >> even > >> here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were > >> considered current technology. > > > > What would we have used in those days? > > > > Oh. I guess that you're talking about the youngsters. > > Yep. There seems to be a big assumption (at least elsewhere) that > anybody who is "into retrocomputing" has just gotten into it > recently. Here, we have at least quite a few people who were into > (say) PDP-11s when they were current technology, and at some point > in the past that activity and interest automatically became a part of > the retrocomputing world. How bizarre. I've always had a fondness for the C64, Amiga, AppleII series, and the earliest Macs when they were brand-new. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bob at jfcl.com Sun May 11 16:49:42 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 14:49:42 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 ICs Message-ID: <003601c8b3b0$eb6e9cd0$c24bd670$@com> Does anybody know of an equivalent or source for replacement DEC 8235 ICs? They're AND-OR-INVERT gates used as bus drivers on the TD8E (and probably other OMNIBUS boards). Thanks, Bob Armstrong From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 11 16:27:55 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 17:27:55 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <20080511142313.S75812@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> <4826E531.8050303@neurotica.com> <20080511120434.P75812@shell.lmi.net> <20080511142313.S75812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 11, 2008, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Yep. There seems to be a big assumption (at least elsewhere) that >> anybody who is "into retrocomputing" has just gotten into it >> recently. Here, we have at least quite a few people who were into >> (say) PDP-11s when they were current technology, and at some point >> in the past that activity and interest automatically became a part of >> the retrocomputing world. How bizarre. > > I guess that I'm not really into retrocomputing; I'm just seriously > out-of-date. My sentiments exactly. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 13:30:20 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 19:30:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Miniscribe 6085 In-Reply-To: <869B1C3C-5711-4BEC-9FAF-FC4A215BBB4C@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at May 10, 8 03:14:49 pm Message-ID: > > Can somebody with a Miniscribe 6085 tell me the value (or at the very > least the color code) of the inductor near CR16, RP17, Q17, C59, > etc. ? (the actual location marking on my board is under the component). > > It's at the edge of the board, toward the back of the drive. Mine is > charred and unreadable. I don;'t have this drive, but I am conserned as to why it failed. Presumably it carried too much current, but why? I would guess it's not part of any data-waveform filtering circuit (I can't thinkl of a faulyt which would case an inductor there to carry so much current as to urn it out), it's proably part of a PSU filter circuit. In qhich case the value is not going to be very critical, but I would suspect a short 'downstream' of the inductor as to the reason for its burning out, and you'd better find that short before replacing it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 13:37:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 19:37:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sun 3/80 Magic Smoke In-Reply-To: <48264458.5090307@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at May 10, 8 08:56:56 pm Message-ID: > > > > Tried to power up a Sun 3/80 mainboard... > > Inductor L0500 (right near the power input) (I assume this is an > inductor by the L0500 > marking on the PCB) smoked.... (pink smoke no less) This sseems to be the day for smoking indcutors :-) > > Anyone familiar with the 3/80 to give an idea of why this might have smoked. I've never seen this machine, but from the location of the component, and the fact that it's an inductor, I would asseum it was part of a DC power line filter, and it smoked because of a short (to logic ground, most likely) 'downstream' of said component. My first suggestion is to desolder the indcutor from the PCB. Then trace one of the connections back to the PSU input connector, which will tell you which power line it's associtated with. If you're lucky it'll be something like a +12V rail, not used by many components. If you're unlucky, it'll be the 5V rail that goes everywhere... Msot likely you'll find the 'other' side of the inductor postion on the PCB -- the one not conencted to the power connector -- has a low resistnce to ground. There are many 'techniques' for finding such shorts. Pulling all socketed devices is a good first step, if the short goes away, you know it's one of the chips you've pulled. Suspecting tantalum capacitors is another good idea :-). More logical is the idea of applying a low voltage between the output side of hte inductor and ground, so that a mdoerate current flows (I would guess areound 1A would be OK here), and using a sensitive millivoltmeter to measure the voltage drop across components. The shorted one will test lower than all the others (due to the drop along the PCB tracks), but you do need a good millivoltmeter for this test. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 11 16:26:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:26:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <20080511130131.GA14609@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 11, 8 01:01:31 pm Message-ID: > > I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even > > here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were > > considered current technology. > > I was a kid when S-100 machines were "in", but, as came up earlier > in this thread, I did hit the Osborne/Kaypro CP/M era. I grew up through the micro era, but since I started with a TRS-80 Model 1, I didn't go for CP/M (IMHO LDOS was a _much_ better OS, even if it wasn't 'the standard'.'. At the time I knew of other machines, in particular I'd sort-of heard of the PDP11, and wanted one (but no way could I ever have afforded one, not even an H11). I also loved HP engineering of the period, what little I managed to see of it. [...] > Just my take on why I mix classic CPUs with modern peripherals... runs > the original software, weighs a lot less. As I've seaid before I, rather unconventionally, came to computing from electronics. I still consider myself to be an electornics parson first and a computer person a very distant second. One reaosn I like many of my classics is the beuatiful, and unconventional, bits of electronic (and mechancial) engineering that went into the, And that's not restricted to processors. Such things also turn up in peripherals, even in PSUs. YEs, I find the HP98x0 bit-seiral processor an interesting design. I find the PERQ processor a veryb eautiful design. I find the RK07 servo interesting, likewise the PSU in an HP7245 printer/plotter (but the vector generator in that plotter is interesting as well). The HP1350 graphics translator is plain unconventional. The PDP11/45 CPU is certainly elegrant. A fully mechancial printing terminal like an ASR33 is fascinating. And so on. In other words, the fact that it runs a user program does not make something of particular interest to me over other pieces of engineering. So yes, I do run modern peripherals on my classics. I have no problem at all plugging such things in, either to stnadard I/O ports (RS232, etc) or expenasuion slots. But I am sure glad I've got the original peripherals around too in many cases. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 11 18:25:18 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25:18 -0700 Subject: Early Appletalk; was Re: Interconnecting classic computers Message-ID: <4827805E.80006@bitsavers.org> >>I was almost like they were re-inventing Ethernet. :-) > When Sidhu started on that project ethernet was still pretty nascent. It was Sidhu, Ron Hochsprung, Larry Kenyon, and Alan Oppenheimer http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4689786-fulltext.html Ron came up with the low-level stuff. He also did the PC Appletalk card and firmware (and tons of other stuff since then). Ron also did AppleNet for Lisa. From bear at typewritten.org Sun May 11 18:44:59 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:44:59 -0700 Subject: Miniscribe 6085 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F696DD9-2D84-407C-9BEA-B4455B7134A0@typewritten.org> On May 11, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;'t have this drive, but I am conserned as to why it failed. > Presumably it carried too much current, but why? Tony; It's part of a voltage filter circuit, yes. It failed as a result of a short in a capacitor elsewhere in the circuit. I know what the capacitor's characteristics were, so it can be replaced. I do not know what the inductor's characteristics were; I need to find out before it can be replaced. ok bear From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 11 18:50:51 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 19:50:51 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <20080511142313.S75812@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080511142313.S75812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200805111950.52108.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 11 May 2008 17:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 11 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yep. There seems to be a big assumption (at least elsewhere) that > > anybody who is "into retrocomputing" has just gotten into it > > recently. Here, we have at least quite a few people who were into > > (say) PDP-11s when they were current technology, and at some point > > in the past that activity and interest automatically became a part of > > the retrocomputing world. How bizarre. > > I guess that I'm not really into retrocomputing; I'm just seriously > out-of-date. Yer just another old phart... (Takes one to know one, right? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 11 22:25:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 20:25:37 -0700 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? Message-ID: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> The Soviet Soyuz-Neon PK-11: http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=245 Regardless, a very interesting site with photos of various Soviet-era personal computers. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 11 22:35:36 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:35:36 -0500 Subject: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks Message-ID: <4827BB08.3020109@oldskool.org> The question of which DOS-era floppy backup program was "best" has always bothered me over the years, so today I spent the better part of an afternoon satisfying my curiosity. (By "floppy backup program", I mean programs that intelligently used high-speed DMA to format and write backup data while the computer was doing other things in the background, like reading from the hard disk and compressing the data.) Results are here, for the curious: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/dosbackupshootout If I missed an obvious one that runs on XT-class hardware, let me know. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 11 22:58:53 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:58:53 -0500 Subject: Another classic comp job Message-ID: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm?jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other electronic equipment." From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 11 23:07:01 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 21:07:01 -0700 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 8:25 PM -0700 5/11/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: >The Soviet Soyuz-Neon PK-11: > >http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=245 > >Regardless, a very interesting site with photos of various Soviet-era >personal computers. That's quite the piece of hardware. It appears to have two cartridge slots, any idea if it had any sort of tape or disk drive? I love the piece of paper and two pieces of cardboard in between the SIPP's (at least I assume those are memory boards and some form of SIPP). That's what I call "high-quality" manufacturing! :^) Definitely an interesting looking system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 11 23:30:36 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 21:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080511212947.C88282@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 11 May 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=245 Thanks for posting that! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 11 23:44:31 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 21:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <56972.71.139.37.220.1210567471.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > The Soviet Soyuz-Neon PK-11: > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=245 No, the MK-90 is smaller, and weighs only 0.7 kg: http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/mk-90.html When I first heard of it I was skeptical of the claim that it used a PDP-11-compatible processor, but since then I've verified it by actually running my own PDP-11 code on one. Eric From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 12 00:16:55 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 05:16:55 +0000 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <56972.71.139.37.220.1210567471.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <56972.71.139.37.220.1210567471.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080512051655.GA10401@usap.gov> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 09:44:31PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > The Soviet Soyuz-Neon PK-11: > > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=245 > > No, the MK-90 is smaller, and weighs only 0.7 kg: > > http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/mk-90.html > > When I first heard of it I was skeptical of the claim that > it used a PDP-11-compatible processor, but since then I've > verified it by actually running my own PDP-11 code on one. Both of those are really neat. I've wanted to get a Russian PDP-11 clone for over 10 years, but never run across any, even during the two weeks I was in Moscow in 1999 (I suppose I could have tried harder, but I didn't really know anyone who knew anyone there). I saw all sorts of stuff for sale in flea markets, but it was mostly toiletries, hand tools, clothing, puppies/kittens... no calculators or computers. I did investigate some Ukranian sites selling all sorts of Russian goods a few years back, but the "handling fees" were going to top $100 for something like the PK-11, and I didn't pursue it further. The closest I've come is finding a Russian PDP-11 emulator for MS-DOS c. 1994. It used one of the code pages to handle the Cyrillic issue. It booted and ran RT-11 v4.0 IIRC, but since I didn't have any Russian-specific apps, I didn't do much with it. I have no idea where I got it (CompuServe forum download?) or where a copy of it might be now, but it was at least interesting to fire up. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-May-2008 at 05:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.3 F (-57.4 C) Windchill -101.7 F (-74.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 27 Barometer 678.6 mb (10681 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 11 06:19:24 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 07:19:24 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0P00EQABEFIVK8@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 11:27:50 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:29:24 -0400 >> From: Dave McGuire > >> I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- >> resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical >> restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything >> non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. > >It's not the ROM-ing of CP/M that disturbs me, but rather the >"disklessness" of the thing. Wasn't the whole idea of CP/M >originally to give you something to manage files on your floppy >drives? I mean, that's what the bulk of the code in CP/M is for-- >heaven knows, the support for other I/O is nothing to write home >about. It would not be diskless only floppy less. > >If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in >being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- >type controller added to the design would give that capability with a >minimum of support "glue". IF you really want to enjoy the vintage experience you can include a floppy controller but be warned...They are a PAIN to use and program. The most important detail is the unless you include DMA (more parts) the cpu does all the heavy lifiting in real time and that requires tight code or some hardware tricks (more parts). It stops getting simple real fast. Then there are the various floppies with their interface quirks. IDE and CF have simple interfaces, they do not have to be written or read in real time, they are obtailable. FYI reading and writing in real time for a 5.25" DD floppy (seriously anything less than 360K is useless) requires the CPU to fetch/put a byte every 16uS without delay and in somecase the worst case timing for that is 14us. Write a simple routine in Z80 at 4mhz that does that, reliabily. Forget using 1.44MB floppies as doing that in under 8uS is out of the question without a 8mhz Z80, fast ram to support it, fast Eprom and all the other nice things that go with faster. FYI: at 4ux a CPU cycle is .25uS and the shortest instruction is nop at 4 cycles (no wait states) or 1us and a DJNZ is around 7/10 cycles or 1.75uS to 2.5uS... the timing picture is tight. Also there is the problem of getting some FDCs like the 1770,2793 and other more highly integrated chips that aren't 44 pin QFP. >Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module >to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the >"thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. How many more parts do you think you need for that? >I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably >because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... ;) having built my first Altair in january 1975 and prior to that for work an 8008 when it was new.. what me vintage? Allison From paul0926 at comcast.net Sun May 11 02:35:35 2008 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 01:35:35 -0600 Subject: IBM 129 manual In-Reply-To: <20080509214105.GA9305@usap.gov> References: <82643907-B0A9-46BB-9918-68126618B388@comcast.net> <4824C32B.3329FAB@cs.ubc.ca> <20080509214105.GA9305@usap.gov> Message-ID: On May 9, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would love a pointer to a soft-copy of an 029 manual. I've had one > for some time now, but haven't even begun to delve into it (except > to take off the back cover and marvel at the guts). When looking for the 129 manuals, before Al posted them, I found these: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/029/ Paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 11 06:24:28 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 07:24:28 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0P001PMBMV06X2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 14:43:26 -0400 > To: > > >> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:29:24 -0400 >> From: Dave McGuire > >> I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- >> resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical >> restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything >> non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. > >It's not the ROM-ing of CP/M that disturbs me, but rather the >"disklessness" of the thing. Wasn't the whole idea of CP/M >originally to give you something to manage files on your floppy >drives? I mean, that's what the bulk of the code in CP/M is for-- >heaven knows, the support for other I/O is nothing to write home >about. > >If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in >being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- >type controller added to the design would give that capability with a >minimum of support "glue". > >Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module >to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the >"thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. > >I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably >because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... > >Cheers, >Chuck > >-----REPLY----- > >Hi Chuck, > >I hear what you are saying and agree there is something just very >disconcerting about diskless CP/M computers. However, CP/M in the CBIOS is >really just about block devices and the OS really could care less whether >you attach a 8" SSSD floppy, a CF drive or a ROM. It is all the same to the >BDOS. > >My goal here is to *eventually* allow expansion to include IDE and floppy >drives. As a matter of fact, the CBIOS does support IDE hard disks already >but requires the interface IO card and the ECB backplane to attach it to the >SBC. I have an IDE hard disk with CP/M format and some programs on it. > >My goal with the SBC using ROM/RAM drives was to allow something minimal to >operate as a SBC and have some functionality with the option to expand to as >desired. I am trying for a modular, low cost approach with easy to build >increments. > >Assuming I get this SBC respun and into manufacturing my next project is to >redo my ECB backplane as a PCB. After that will be the disk IO board and >bus debuggers which are also made from prototype boards. > >My Test Prototype home brew computer was built entirely with prototype >boards and point to point wiring. It supported IDE drives and even had a >NEC765 FDC circuit built in. I wrote some software but never got around to >test the FDC part since the machine started experiencing reliability >problems which I think trace back to poor grounding and power distribution >issues. The new PCB SBC version seems much more solid than the prototype >did. You used it as it's one of the few you can still buy. I happen to use that chip as I have them and was even supporting them back years ago. But you know adding that chip with it's support nearly doubles the chip count of a minimal CP/M engine. A few areas I watch for. Sockets do not help reliability. Ground is never ground enough. Bypass everything. Allison >The SBC is something which works but gives only limited functionality. If >that is enough, people can stop there. If they want more they can plug it >into the ECB backplane and add peripheral cards. So far only two peripheral >cards exist; the disk IO card and the bus debugger. Hopefully more in the >future. I have some ideas kicking around in my head but am concentrating on >the SBC for now. > >Thanks and have a nice weekend! > >Andrew Lynch From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun May 11 11:26:18 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 12:26:18 -0400 Subject: TDL Zapple Monitor Listing Message-ID: <000a01c8b383$bd86b9b0$6701a8c0@HP24150918428> To all, Found this while cleaning out some old S100 stuff. A source listing for the 8080 Zapple Monitor from Computer Design Labs, Trenton, NJ dated 1979 and 1980. Funny it is named the "Apple" monitor, I supposed maybe Apple was not pursuing naming IP as it did later.. The listing is bound in a spiral type binding and I believe I purchased it sometime in that time frame. I'm feeling a bit old now.... It is free (plus S&H) to the first to reply. Dan, Butler, PA From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 11 14:57:50 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 15:57:50 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0P0063WZ9P5TK0@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 08:23:13 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I dunno Chuck...the only reason more CP/M systems weren't ROM- >>> resident back in the day was due to convention, not technical >>> restrictions. I (personally) don't think there's anything >>> non-"period" about ROM-ing CP/M. >> >> It's not the ROM-ing of CP/M that disturbs me, but rather the >> "disklessness" of the thing. Wasn't the whole idea of CP/M >> originally to give you something to manage files on your floppy >> drives? I mean, that's what the bulk of the code in CP/M is for-- >> heaven knows, the support for other I/O is nothing to write home >> about. >> >> If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in >> being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- >> type controller added to the design would give that capability with a >> minimum of support "glue". >> >> Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module >> to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the >> "thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. > > Well I wasn't talking about a diskless system...only one in which >CP/M itself was in ROM. When I mentioned it I wasn't running CP/M from rom which by the way takes recoding of the CCP, BDOS and BIOS to make all the data areas external. What I was refering to is simply booting it from a rom rather than off the system tracks. The result of that is then ANY formatted disk is a boot media and makes the system a bit more bullet proof as a common fault (STILL) is trying to boot a nonsystem disk or worse having a power glitch kill the system tracks. When done that way CP/M is still in ram, can be overlayed, and even patched. Boot from rom also solves the chicken/egg paradox as the the system disk does not have to have data/programs. >> I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably >> because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... > > I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even >here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were >considered current technology. Speak for yourself. I wish that were true. The first version of CP/M I ran was 1.3 When it was available and 1.4 was much better and useful. I had access to PDP-8 ion 1969 and PDP10 in 1971 and got my first PDP11 in 1980(still have it too!). PDP11 stopped being current in the 1990s when DEC sold the tech and licenses. Up till then you could buy it new and faster (and then from mentec for years after that). Allison > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 11 15:13:59 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:13:59 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0Q00BBR05DG8OD@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:24:57 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 08:26:41 -0400 >> From: Allison > > >> Do a A>:ASM BIGFIL.AAB and forget the disk in B: and you remember >> why you hate that. > >Or doing "ASM BIGFIL.ASM" or even just "ASM". I got into the habit >of using M80/L80 as soon as I got my hands on a copy. DRI assemblers >(even RMAC) weren't any great shucks. > >> But then I wa an early adptor of hard disk and from late '80 on >> had at least a 5mb drive to avoid that. Is that less authentic? >> By the end of 1981 I'd built a system with romdisk and ramdisk >> and no floppy or har disk. Was that authentic? > >I think I failed to make my point well enough. Almost all the people >who worked with CP/M initially did so in the context of floppy disks. >Someone attempting to duplicate that experience would get a less-than- >authentic experience without that aspect, in much the same way one >would be deprived of the experience of big mainframe iron without the >machine room noise level. Could you get a true experience of running >OS/360 without a card reader? An authentic experience consists of >all aspects of the experience, not just the convenient or pleasant >ones. Without the whole, one gets a "dude ranch" picture. For the latter without the card reader you couls substitute the tape or even first floppy based job feeds. As to CP/M if you want the pain oops wrong disk grab an old PC and dont use hard disk with DOS. IT's somthing that one likes to forget quickly. Floppies and CP/M the major issues were lack of space, not enough drives and some cases systems that could crunch (on power off or power fail) media left in drive (data lost). Authentic yes, get as much done NO. Every ones had to learn those fast and after that it was part fo the psyche and largely forgotten save for lack of space and not enough dives. >> What is authentic? To me if the platform has 8080, 8085, >> Z80, Z180/64180, Z280, or NSC800 it's running on real iron. Of >> course if you have a Z380 or eZ80 in native mode or a NEC V20 >> in 8080 mode those may count too. > >No, one gets extra bugs with a V20 that the 8080 never had. ;) but they are Authentic. >> 1.4 really didn't even do a DISK bios, it was embedded in the bdos. >> the bios for 1.4 was only terminal, punch reader and printer IO. >> Yes, it ws a pain to interface any new disk to it. > >Not according to my archives. While it's true that the 1.4 BIOS >lacked the configurability of 2.0/2.2 (i.e. there were no DPBs, etc. >to define your own disk format), it contained the disk access code >(e.g. SELDSK, SETTRK, etc.) If you'd like, I can send you a copy of >the CBIOS that came with my Tarbell controller, complete with >Processor Technology video board driver (which I didn't use). It's >remarkable in one aspect--it allows for simulated 2-drive operation >on one drive by prompting for the A: or B: floppy when required. > I have 1.4 for 8" and NS* Horizon (still running!) and their respective manuals. Your right I forgot that NS* created a second level bios strictly for the terminal, printer, punch, reader part of the interface. That part if the ihterface is very lightly doumented in my Alteration Guide. >CP/M 1.4 had the right idea--it supported only one diskette format, >so if you had more than 250K of storage, you were pretty much forced >to accommodate this by simulating multiple floppy drives. (Wasn't >there an early system that used an IMI "shoebox" drive for the Apple >II that simulated about 50 floppies?) Where things got out of hand >is when DRI said "Roll your own" with no guidance as to disk format >standards. > >> It is in 2.0 (deblocking). However their explanation is thin and >> some of the fine details have to be infered by really reading the >> code. It was very mysterious when I did it for the first time back >> in '80 when I was working with a early sample 765 DD FDC. It was >> later that Andy Johnson-Laird wrote The Programmers CP/M Handbook >> which covers the subject in much greater detail and has two BIOS >> exammples that are very commented. > >It's been years since I've chatted with Andy. My acquaintance with >him began after his book, however and I hadn't even realized that >he'd done anything with CP/M. > I'd say he write "the book" that explains things from both the bios/systems perspective and the applicatiosn programmers eye view. It's the book I refer everyone too after the Alteration Guide has confused, narrowed and limited their view of what can be done. I've always maintained that CP/M was a UI and filesystem mostly and there was little it prevents and mostly allowed anything. It did a far job of hardware abstraction and mostly kept out of the way. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 11 15:17:09 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:17:09 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0Q00LF90AMZK35@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Barry Watzman" > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:16:18 -0400 > To: > >RE: "1.4 really didn't even do a DISK bios, it was embedded in the bdos. >the bios for 1.4 was only terminal, punch reader and printer IO. Yes, it >was a pain to interface any new disk to it." > >Allison, that is simply not true. The diskette format (DPH and DBP) was >imbedded in the BDOS, but the disk I/O was in the BIOS, more or less like >2.x. Right and sorta right. When you get down to it thats nearly as bad. But your right the hardware was tweekable but the hardware was always assumed to be 8" SSSD in the end. Being able to easily alter the media dimensions (DPH and DPB) allowed for larger media and more varied media. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 11 15:25:48 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25:48 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0Q00LZH0P2ZDQ4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:01:31 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: General at icecube.southpole.usap.gov, > On-Topic Posts Only > >On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 08:23:13AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Well I wasn't talking about a diskless system...only one in which >> CP/M itself was in ROM. > >I personally find the idea intriguing, and I am about to cobble up >a system from (nearly) scratch. I used Kaypros and the like, back >in the day, and really won't miss floppies (not that there's an FDC >chip within 3000 miles I could slap on this thing, anyway). > >I don't mind the idea of stuffing "the OS" in ROM vs loading off >of removable media since I doubt I'll want to upgrade. I want to >run a few CP/M-80 programs, and that's about it. NOte It's not OS in rom, it's Rom as floppy replacement. CP/M load process for floppy is a booter load system tracks to ram.. The rom appaorach is booter loads system from ROM to ram. and once in ram you can overlay, alter, patch, extend as desired. >> >I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably >> >because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... >> >> I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even >> here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were >> considered current technology. > >I was a kid when S-100 machines were "in", but, as came up earlier >in this thread, I did hit the Osborne/Kaypro CP/M era. When I was an adult S100 was introduced. >I consider myself quite fortunate that I've gotten to program PDP-11s >on two different jobs right at the tail end of their heyday (I was 18-20 >at the time). I also consider myself fortunate that I was working at >a place that supported VAX/BSD customers in addition to our VAX/VMS >customers, so I was able to pick up some UNIX skills nearly 25 years >ago. When folks bandy about "All the World's a VAX", it really means >something to me (I learned C from K&R on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD, so >I _know_ how easy it is to write non-portable code). > >I do run things inemulation, but I also enjoy running things on real >iron. Right now, I have a modern Elf within reach, as well as an >SBC6120. The SBC6120 boots off of CF... no floppies, no 1/3 HP rotating >media, but there's still a real 12-bit processor on the board. I don't >consider that emulation in the slightest, even if my "disks" don't rotate. >OTOH, I also have, at home, "real" PDP-8s with real DEC-made disks; they >just aren't so portable as to be worth hauling down here. Same goes for >a CP/M machine - I'm working on something smaller than a princess phone. >Quite portable compared to an S-100 or an Osborne. Bob's SBC6120 is as close or better than a real 8e for playing with code. That s the point too. Emulation you just cant pay with wires or add a parallel port. >Just my take on why I mix classic CPUs with modern peripherals... runs >the original software, weighs a lot less. ;) and it can be faster too. A 64K z80 system that has a 32mb CF will do everthing the same as my S100 create with a Quantum D540(32mb) hard disk only it cant cause back pain, it's about as fast and the CF based machine can run on small batteries where the S100 crate can suck up a APS 1000VA UPS in short order (that has two 12V 7AH gell cells or ~168WH of power). Allison >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-May-2008 at 12:40 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.6 F (-62.0 C) Windchill -108.3 F (-77.9 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 5.8 kts Grid 42 Barometer 682.8 mb (10523 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vrs at msn.com Mon May 12 01:43:57 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 23:43:57 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 ICs References: <003601c8b3b0$eb6e9cd0$c24bd670$@com> Message-ID: > Does anybody know of an equivalent or source for replacement DEC 8235 > ICs? > They're AND-OR-INVERT gates used as bus drivers on the TD8E (and probably > other OMNIBUS boards). Sourcing them is hard. Maybe a pull from some other board that's been designated "parts"? I looked at some boards I have (where some idiot shaved off all the metal from the edge connectors) but no 8235's there. If you're driving a PDP-8 bus, maybe a pair of 74*756 for "A" and a pair of 74*757 for "B" would allow a low parts count replacement? (I think one of the 757's enables is active high, though.) Are you looking to repair a TD8E, specifically? Those look like simple B/!A switches, activated by SDRD and SDRC instructions. If you are working with an existing M868, that limits the desirable substitutions, because you wouldn't want to rework every darned thing. (OTOH, E01 has the spare inverter needed by the 74*757. You could socket E01, E05, E10, and E15, and make a little daughter card to plug into the sockets.) Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 12 02:13:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:13:32 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48278BAC.219.1D2846E3@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25:18 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > It was Sidhu, Ron Hochsprung, Larry Kenyon, and Alan Oppenheimer > > http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4689786-fulltext.html > > Ron came up with the low-level stuff. He also did the PC Appletalk > card and firmware (and tons of other stuff since then). Would this be the same Ron Hochsprung who served as the computer center manager at IIT in Chicago around 1967? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 12 02:21:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:21:15 -0700 Subject: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks In-Reply-To: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48278D7B.6019.1D2F58B8@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:35:36 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > If I missed an obvious one that runs on XT-class hardware, let me know. I think I might have a couple to add to your list. I know I have an earlier version of FastBack that *does* use a proprietary format. I can shoot you a copy if you're interested. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 12 02:30:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:30:42 -0700 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48278FB2.23523.1D3800B7@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 21:44:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric Smith" > No, the MK-90 is smaller, and weighs only 0.7 kg: > > http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/mk-90.html > > When I first heard of it I was skeptical of the claim that > it used a PDP-11-compatible processor, but since then I've > verified it by actually running my own PDP-11 code on one. Hmmm. My guy has it listed under "calculators". But I think the MK 87 might even beat the MK-90: http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=173 It's not clear that one can actually get to the CPU at a machine- language level, however. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 12 03:06:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 01:06:23 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4827980F.6553.1D58A8FB@cclist.sydex.com> Allison wrote: > It would not be diskless only floppy less. Er, I don't what to get into the subject of what a "disk" is, but I'll concede that the beast would have secondary storage. > IF you really want to enjoy the vintage experience you can include a > floppy controller but be warned...They are a PAIN to use and program. > The most important detail is the unless you include DMA (more parts) > the cpu does all the heavy lifiting in real time and that requires > tight code or some hardware tricks (more parts). It stops getting > simple real fast. Then there are the various floppies with their > interface quirks. I disagree--I've been known to program a floppy controller or two in my time and never found them particularly nasty--except for the WD1781 which had a really annoying tendency to hang during some operations. WD never fixed that--the 'B' part still had the problem when they discontinued it. Our fix involved timing the operation and then resetting the controller if it went out to lunch. So when the PC came along when a drive-not-ready condition would cause the 8272 to hang, it seemed like old home week. (Does anyone have a datasheet for the WD1781? I can't seem to locate my copy anymore.) A WD1770 is very easy program (as are most of the WD x7xx parts), requires very little in the way of interface logic and can be serviced with non-DMA data transfers, even on a 2MHz 8080. (Herb Johnson has a good section on floppy transfer vs. CPU speed on his retrotechnology.com site.) A 4MHz can easily handle DD 8" drives without DMA, which should mean that HD 1.44MB drives should also work. Don Tarbell's first 8" controller handled SD 8" on a 2MHz 8080 quite reliably. The topic interested me at one time because I wondered if it was possible to read DD 8" floppies without DMA with a 2MHz 8080. I think it is, but you have to resort to some strange programming tricks. I believe that Herb has my notes on this. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon May 12 03:13:55 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 01:13:55 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <48278BAC.219.1D2846E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48278BAC.219.1D2846E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4827FC43.7030102@mindspring.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25:18 -0700 >> From: Al Kossow > >> It was Sidhu, Ron Hochsprung, Larry Kenyon, and Alan Oppenheimer >> >> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4689786-fulltext.html >> >> Ron came up with the low-level stuff. He also did the PC Appletalk >> card and firmware (and tons of other stuff since then). > > Would this be the same Ron Hochsprung who served as the computer > center manager at IIT in Chicago around 1967? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Exactly, one and the same. When I was in high school back in 67-71 in the northern Chicago suburbs (same high school as John Hughes attended BTW; I was a freshman when he was a senior) a bunch of us made weekend trips down to Chicago's IIT (Illinois Institute of Technology) for their programming classes to learn programming in 'IITRAN' (a variation of Fortran designed mainly for teaching). Ron Hochsprung was one of the implementors of the IITRAN interpreter system (it first ran on a 360/40 and later on a Univac 1108). Later our school got RJE access via phone lines; we punched programs offline on papertape, and then later they were run and the printed results returned. A little better than punching cards and waiting for line printer results (but not by much). Anyway, after high school I went off to MIT, then worked for DEC in Maynard for 7 years. In 1982 I jumped cross country, seeing DEC ignoring the personal computer industry. I went to work for Apple, and lo and behold, Ron Hochsprung is there at Apple. Small world, indeed. I spent 15 years at Apple. My suspicion is Ron is probably still there. Don North From jgessling at yahoo.com Mon May 12 05:34:36 2008 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 03:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5150 seen in movie Message-ID: <322295.79164.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In "Broadcast News" during the big layoff scene there is at least one clear shot of a 5150. I think it was a dual floppy model. Regards, Jim ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 12 08:28:50 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:28:50 -0500 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <20080512051655.GA10401@usap.gov> References: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <56972.71.139.37.220.1210567471.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20080512051655.GA10401@usap.gov> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080512082642.0590ae70@mail.threedee.com> At 12:16 AM 5/12/2008, you wrote: >Both of those are really neat. I've wanted to get a Russian PDP-11 >clone for over 10 years, but never run across any, even during the >two weeks I was in Moscow in 1999 (I suppose I could have tried >harder, but I didn't really know anyone who knew anyone there). Several of the Electronika BK-0010 and MC series are supposedly DEC compatible, too: http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=57 - John From bob at jfcl.com Mon May 12 09:04:24 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:04:24 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 ICs Message-ID: <002201c8b439$15c7a480$4156ed80$@com> >Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >Sourcing them is hard. Maybe a pull from some other board that's been >designated "parts"? I looked at some boards I have (where some idiot >shaved off all the metal from the edge connectors) but no 8235's there. Same here - I already checked my collection of UNIBUS and OMNIBUS boards (at least the ones I was willing to scrap) and no 8235s. I think there's a couple on the M8330 PDP-8/E TG board, but I'm not willing to kill one of those :-) >Are you looking to repair a TD8E, specifically? Those look like simple B/!A >switches, activated by SDRD and SDRC instructions. Yep, I've got a real TD8E to fix that has two bad 8235s on it. Both chips have one output that's stuck low and right now I can't even plug the TD8E into the machine - it hangs the OMNIBUS when you do. The board looks nice and clean, though, so I'm hoping that's all that's wrong. I did a little research and the 74xx TTL family has many AND-OR-INVERT type gates (e.g. 7451, 74S64, etc) but even ignoring pinouts and output drive capability, none of them are equivalent to the DEC8235. The DEC part has active low inputs (it's really an "INVERT-AND-OR-INVERT" gate) that nobody else seems to have, so replacing 'em with off the shelf parts would take at least another chip. Does anybody know if the DEC8235 is the same as the National DM8235? I don't have a source for the DM8235 either, but at least that sounds easier to find. The chips on my board look like they have National logos on them, but they're house marked with the DEC part number. They're also stamped "7419", but that's almost certainly a date code - a real 7419 is an inverter of some kind. Thanks, Bob From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 09:46:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:46:32 -0400 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48285848.1070601@gmail.com> Jeff Jonas wrote: > I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. > Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? > I have a few card cages and cards > but never enough I/O cards! > In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus > just for expansion cards to a single board computer. I used STD bus at work a long time ago for motion control stuff. Memory's a bit hazy. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 09:46:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:46:32 -0400 Subject: any STD bus users or developers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48285848.1070601@gmail.com> Jeff Jonas wrote: > I'm getting the itch to get back to Z80 stuff. > Has anyone used the STD bus, or have any parts? > I have a few card cages and cards > but never enough I/O cards! > In the least, I was planning on using the STD bus > just for expansion cards to a single board computer. I used STD bus at work a long time ago for motion control stuff. Memory's a bit hazy. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 12 10:09:12 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:09:12 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> On May 11, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Jason T wrote: > http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm? > jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA > > "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco > routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other electronic > equipment." That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of the VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 12 10:26:34 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:26:34 -0600 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 May 2008 11:09:12 -0400. <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of > the VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( TU81 doesn't sound classic? Or were you just considering that to be part of the VAX? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Mon May 12 10:31:24 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > On May 11, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Jason T wrote: >> http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm? >> jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA >> >> "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco >> routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other electronic >> equipment." > > > That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of > the VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 10:59:19 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:59:19 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48286957.9020404@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 11, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Jason T wrote: >> http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm?jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA >> >> >> "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco >> routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other electronic >> equipment." > > > That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of the > VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( RAMAC. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 10:59:19 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:59:19 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48286957.9020404@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 11, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Jason T wrote: >> http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm?jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA >> >> >> "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco >> routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other electronic >> equipment." > > > That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of the > VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( RAMAC. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 12 11:04:15 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:04:15 -0500 Subject: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks In-Reply-To: <48278D7B.6019.1D2F58B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805120649.m4C6nQL7081714@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48278D7B.6019.1D2F58B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48286A7F.7080709@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:35:36 -0500 >> From: Jim Leonard > >> If I missed an obvious one that runs on XT-class hardware, let me know. > > I think I might have a couple to add to your list. I know I have an > earlier version of FastBack that *does* use a proprietary format. I > can shoot you a copy if you're interested. Very much so; I'd love to add more to the list. If my personal email rejects your attachment(s), just upload to the /incoming area on ftp.oldskool.org. What I would love to test is Central Point Backup (PC Backup?) prior to version 6, which is the only version I had available to test. Versions prior to 6 are supposed to contain code that supports the Option Board I have in my 5160 for additional speed -- however, I'm not sure how much speedup I could expect, since some of the faster programs in the shootout must have been operating at a 1:1 intereave (I was writing all 40 tracks both sides in less than 30 seconds per disk; can it get any faster than that?). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 12 11:08:17 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:08:17 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 24 Message-ID: <48286B71.2080208@bitsavers.org> > I spent 15 years at Apple. My suspicion is Ron is probably still there. He was, the last I heard. He's one of the senior system architects, like Dave Conroy, that you will never hear anything about outside The Fruit. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 12 11:57:16 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:57:16 -0500 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730805120957na8af683j59d626effbae391b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? Could they really still have a running RAMAC? I wasn't sure if that name had maybe been recycled by IBM for something more reset (like, say from the 70s ;) From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 12:11:05 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:11:05 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805120957na8af683j59d626effbae391b@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <51ea77730805120957na8af683j59d626effbae391b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48287A29.9030809@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? > > > Could they really still have a running RAMAC? I wasn't sure if that > name had maybe been recycled by IBM for something more reset (like, > say from the 70s ;) It became a line of stuff, but IIRC, any of them would be old enough to be considered classic. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 12 12:05:54 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:05:54 -0500 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805101700.m4AH0F13056210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482586B6.10579.1544F0A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <482878F2.3010605@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in > being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- > type controller added to the design would give that capability with a > minimum of support "glue". Agreed. > Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module > to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the > "thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. And the high-pitched squeal of a disk shedding its coating in the drive... (maybe a dip-switch for "Wabash mode"? :-) Personally I'm all for adding to vintage systems (hard disks where none were originally supported, video additions etc.) if it makes the system a little easier for frequent use - but not at the expense of original features. Part of the 'experience' is being able to enjoy the system as it was originally used, after all. (Similarly, I'm in awe of emulator writers - but give me the original hardware any day...) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 12 12:18:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:18:59 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48281993.15342.8BED78@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 01:13:55 -0700 > From: Don North > I spent 15 years at Apple. My suspicion is Ron is probably still there. I have a memory of Ron at IIT (this would be about 1967) talking to a couple of older gentlemen visiting from Taiwan--in German. It's just one of those incongruous things that you never forget. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon May 12 12:26:58 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805120957na8af683j59d626effbae391b@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <51ea77730805120957na8af683j59d626effbae391b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16766.65.126.154.6.1210613218.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? > > > Could they really still have a running RAMAC? I wasn't sure if that > name had maybe been recycled by IBM for something more reset (like, > say from the 70s ;) > That is quite strange, isn't it? Might put on my journalism hat and do some digging. From tsw-cc at johana.com Mon May 12 12:30:18 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Appletalk; was Re: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: <200805120650.m4C6oQkP081764@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <743072.87679.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Brad Parker wrote: > > > Ray Arachelian wrote: > > > >It's funny how they use CSMA/CA on this network instead of CSMA/CD, and > >when ethernet came out, they continued to use the same protocol until > >nearly modern days where they switched to encapsulating Appletalk > >packets inside TCP/IP frames. > > In fairness it would be proper to separate the mac (physical) layer from > the network layer. > > All the network layer needed was unreliable datagram delivery and > broadcasts. Both Localtalk and Ethernet provide that. > > Collision detect was not really possible on localtalk, unlike ethernet. > But I would argue that CA and CD are refinements which affect maximum > utilization, not gross access to the wire. And both rely on an > appropriate back-off algorithm to work correctly. > > (it's fun to go read the original AlohaNet papers and the DIX blue book > for more on that subject) > > >I was almost like they were re-inventing Ethernet. :-) > > When Sidhu started on that project ethernet was still pretty nascent. > And ethernet was thought of as too expensive and complex (which was > true, I think, when concidering a classic macintosh). > > And at that time there were many many protocols-of-the-day. It wasn't > clear at all which would be dominant. IPX, DecNet, TCP/IP, SNA, ISO ... > > >I suppose they > >could have actually ran ethernet over phone cables, but probably someone > >thought they had a better way to control collisions; perhaps they did. > > I think it was a cost issue. You can't beat the SCC's fm mode (and the > internal pll). They added a little RTS 'beacon' to reserve the wire > which was part of their 'collision avoidance' scheme. It worked pretty > well if you dedicated a cpu to it. > > >Of course there was nothing but trouble with early Ethernet switches and > >EtherTalk since they continued to use CSMA/CA for quite some time. > > I think that was a different problem; Appletalk V1 is very "chatty" > and uses broadcasts a lot. Many early networks were bridged and > this caused problems. I could go on and on, but localized broadcast > based discovery protocols don't work well over long haul bridged > networks, nor do broadcast based distance vector routing protocols > (i.e. NBP and RTMP). > > heh. I once crashed (I kid you not) several hundred VAX's with a single > NBP broadcast packet. Bridged networks are not my friend. > > >I guess there's nothing quite like the not invented here syndrome. > > Certainly some of that, but more in Appletalk v2 and than original > Appletalk. To my mind the original appletalk was simple and elegant - a > good fit for the system... > > -brad > > AppleTalk (in its various forms (LocalTalk, EtherTalk, and even TokenTalk) worked quite well for its INTENDED purpose. When Apple went from "Phase 1" to "Phase 2", it was because they realized at the time that routing packets were really clogging the system. The internal AppleTalk network Apple was using at the time would be passing around routing information on an idle network for over 10% of the traffic. It was simply getting out of hand. There was all this traffic at odd hours in the late night/early morning. "Phase 2" helped quite a bit as it narrowed down the traffic necessary to get the job done. Apple's internal network had LOTS of zones in it (all over the world), and even more nodes (they have lots of desks!). Before the earthquake every was always running around trying to find out who unplugged what (usually several cubes away under some desk). It was really bad. I was working on A/UX (Apple's Unix at the time, pre Linux!) networking in the AppleTalk area, and the idea there was to get printing to function (it did). Most of AppleTalk was a big push to get "plug & play" to work, and lots of effort was expended to this goal. It did work quite well, but if one was to administer a network, the "plug & play" aspect was almost counter to good administrative practices. The largest problem was naming. Plug & Play implied local naming, and good administrative practices indicate a central naming scheme. Oh, well. For the most part, Apple's networking was MUCH easier to use than the others at the time, if they existed at all. I've even got a couple of PC's connected to an AppleTalk server (there is code in Linux for it). If you want to run an understandable networking under MS-DOS, AppleTalk for PC's isn't that bad. A far sight easier than Novell's stuff (memory footprints aside). I note that even today, network printers have AppleTalk in them, and will still connect to ancient 68K based Macs (like my Quadra 840AV). No reason to change what is quite functional! Even today, networking seems to elicit "black magic" practices, but we are getting better! -- Sorry, No signature at the moment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 12 12:32:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:32:46 -0700 Subject: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks In-Reply-To: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48281CCE.15026.988A72@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:04:15 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > What I would love to test is Central Point Backup (PC Backup?) prior to > version 6, which is the only version I had available to test. Versions > prior to 6 are supposed to contain code that supports the Option Board I > have in my 5160 for additional speed -- however, I'm not sure how much > speedup I could expect, since some of the faster programs in the > shootout must have been operating at a 1:1 intereave (I was writing all > 40 tracks both sides in less than 30 seconds per disk; can it get any > faster than that?). I'll dig out the old FastBack and see if I've got an older CP backup-- I may well have. If you're formatting then writing, then an OB might be faster, but probably not when simply writing to a formatted diskette, assuming that the sector layout is skewed appropriately to allow for seek and head settling times. In the bad old days of WD 17xx diskette controllers, we had a copy program that formatted and wrote backup data in one pass, as long as the data didn't have any of the "special" bytes that the WD chip interprets differently during a format operation. Cheers, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 12 12:37:42 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:37:42 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job Message-ID: <48284826020000370002B05E@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Evan asks: > Could they really still have a running RAMAC? At least in the early 90's IBM had rececycled RAMAC to mean a specific RAID product of theirs. e.g. "RAMAC array DASD". I remember a very large financial customer in the mid-90's being proud of having bought a terabyte of disk storage (oh, sorry "a terabyte of RAMAC array DASD") pretty much devoting an entire office building floor to it, and now I can go down to Staples and buy a terabyte of disk for a couple hours worth of paycheck. Tim. From evan at snarc.net Mon May 12 12:42:40 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <16766.65.126.154.6.1210613218.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <51ea77730805120957na8af683j59d626effbae391b@mail.gmail.com> <16766.65.126.154.6.1210613218.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <21954.65.126.154.6.1210614160.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Could they really still have a running RAMAC? I wasn't sure if that >> name had maybe been recycled by IBM for something more reset (like, >> say from the 70s ;) >> > > That is quite strange, isn't it? Might put on my journalism hat and do > some digging. > > Ah-ha! Turns out that IBM used the name "RAMAC Disk Array" in the 1980s. LOL, no way were they looking for someone to support the whopping FIVE MEGABYTE classic RAMAC. From evan at snarc.net Mon May 12 12:43:09 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <48284826020000370002B05E@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <48284826020000370002B05E@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <22362.65.126.154.6.1210614189.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > Evan asks: >> Could they really still have a running RAMAC? > > At least in the early 90's IBM had rececycled RAMAC to mean a > specific RAID product of theirs. e.g. "RAMAC array DASD". I remember > a very large financial customer in the mid-90's being proud of having > bought a terabyte of disk storage (oh, sorry "a terabyte of RAMAC array > DASD") > pretty much devoting an entire office building floor to it, > and now I can go down to Staples and buy a terabyte of disk for a couple > hours worth of paycheck. > > Tim. > Doh! You beat me to it... From evan at snarc.net Mon May 12 12:45:48 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <48284826020000370002B05E@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <48284826020000370002B05E@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <23157.65.126.154.6.1210614348.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > Evan asks: >> Could they really still have a running RAMAC? > > At least in the early 90's IBM had rececycled RAMAC to mean a > specific RAID product of theirs. e.g. "RAMAC array DASD". I remember > a very large financial customer in the mid-90's being proud of having > bought a terabyte of disk storage (oh, sorry "a terabyte of RAMAC array > DASD") > pretty much devoting an entire office building floor to it, > and now I can go down to Staples and buy a terabyte of disk for a couple > hours worth of paycheck. > > Tim. > One more data point: http://tinyurl.com/63uzvg -- see about 3/4 down the story. From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 12 14:14:52 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:14:52 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job Message-ID: <48285EEC020000370002B0C5@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Evan writes: > One more data point: http://tinyurl.com/63uzvg -- see about 3/4 > down the story. What's astonishing is that they refer to EMC's disk arrays as a "cheap, new approach". Today, thirteen years after that article, EMC is the poster child for marketing obsolete way-overpriced technology through FUD intimidation! I would argue that by the mid-90's EMC had fallen into that trap. Tim. From drb at msu.edu Mon May 12 14:30:11 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:30:11 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 12 May 2008 15:14:52 EDT.) <48285EEC020000370002B0C5@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <48285EEC020000370002B0C5@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <200805121930.m4CJUBcu015481@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What's astonishing is that they refer to EMC's disk arrays as a "cheap, > new approach". Today, thirteen years after that article, EMC is the > poster child for marketing obsolete way-overpriced technology through > FUD intimidation! Quelle surprise. EMC was born into a cradle of intimidation, selling Prime memory boards. Prime threatened lawsuits, and EMC fought back with intimidation. When that wasn't contentious enough, they went after IBM's mainframe disk market. Didn't IBM patent FUD? :) De From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 12 14:32:05 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <40223.64.62.206.10.1210620725.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Evan wrote: > Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? Yes, but the job has *NOTHING* to do with the original RAMAC. It's using a modern RAID on a mainframe, which IBM sells under the RAMAC name. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 12 15:29:22 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:29:22 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200805121629.22791.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 12 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 11, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Jason T wrote: > > http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm? > > jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA > > > > "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco > > routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other > > electronic equipment." > > That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of > the VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( At this point, I think S/390s are getting to be "classic"... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 16:02:17 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:02:17 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <200805121629.22791.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <200805121629.22791.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4828B059.8090406@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 12 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On May 11, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Jason T wrote: >>> http://www.intelligencecareers.com/jobs/jobview.cfm? >>> jobid=282560&refsrc=shpaidCA >>> >>> "Equipment to maintain includes IBM S390, RAMAC disk array, Cisco >>> routers, VAX 4000, TU81 Tape Drives, Sun Servers and other >>> electronic equipment." >> That doesn't sound very "classic" at all, with the exception of >> the VAX, which is a very late model anyway. :-( > > At this point, I think S/390s are getting to be "classic"... Depends on the S/390. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 16:13:59 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:13:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 11, 8 08:25:37 pm Message-ID: > > The Soviet Soyuz-Neon PK-11: > > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=245 Actually, I htink there's a smaller one. DIdn't at least one of the Soviet handheld computers (Elektronika MK85 or some such) have a PDP11-compatible CPU chip inside? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 12 16:57:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080512145222.D50321@shell.lmi.net> I liked that digital pocket watch. The Sura 8080 machine looks interesting. I've seen disks from Russia on a Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC (such as NEC used), one of which appeared to be Okidata. The SCP 3.0 CP/M would be fun, as well as the DCP 3.0 MS-DOS, and Alpha-DOS -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 12 17:44:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:44:08 +0000 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080512082642.0590ae70@mail.threedee.com> References: <48275641.16339.1C57A1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <56972.71.139.37.220.1210567471.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20080512051655.GA10401@usap.gov> <6.2.3.4.2.20080512082642.0590ae70@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <20080512224408.GD14333@usap.gov> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 08:28:50AM -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 12:16 AM 5/12/2008, you wrote: > >Both of those are really neat. I've wanted to get a Russian PDP-11 > >clone for over 10 years, but never run across any, even during the > >two weeks I was in Moscow in 1999 (I suppose I could have tried > >harder, but I didn't really know anyone who knew anyone there). > > Several of the Electronika BK-0010 and MC series are supposedly DEC compatible, too: > > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=57 I think it was a BK-0010 or something very similar that I was looking for when I was in Russia, since unlike the handhelds (which are very neat all by themselves), the BK-0010 runs RT-11, IIRC. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-May-2008 at 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.9 F (-57.7 C) Windchill -103.7 F (-75.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.0 kts Grid 10 Barometer 677.6 mb (10719 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 12 20:56:46 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:56:46 -0400 Subject: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks In-Reply-To: <48281CCE.15026.988A72@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48281CCE.15026.988A72@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4828F55E.8040508@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:04:15 -0500 >> From: Jim Leonard > >> What I would love to test is Central Point Backup (PC Backup?) prior to >> version 6, which is the only version I had available to test. Versions >> prior to 6 are supposed to contain code that supports the Option Board I >> have in my 5160 for additional speed -- however, I'm not sure how much >> speedup I could expect, since some of the faster programs in the >> shootout must have been operating at a 1:1 intereave (I was writing all >> 40 tracks both sides in less than 30 seconds per disk; can it get any >> faster than that?). > > I'll dig out the old FastBack and see if I've got an older CP backup-- > I may well have. Ahh yes, I was beating my head against the wall trying to remember that name. I used FastBack all the time when I was writing database apps under DOS. We used it around the office to move files around, and between work and home. It's actually a really nice package as I recall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 12 21:11:52 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:11:52 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <40223.64.62.206.10.1210620725.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <40223.64.62.206.10.1210620725.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4828F8E8.2070101@neurotica.com> Evan wrote: > Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? Yes I am, both the first RAMAC circa 1956 which stood for Random Access Method of Accounting and Control, and IBM's current large-scale storage technology which is also called RAMAC, which stands for Raid Architecture with Multilevel Adaptive Cache. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 21:19:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:19:32 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <4828F8E8.2070101@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <40223.64.62.206.10.1210620725.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4828F8E8.2070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4828FAB4.2050000@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Evan wrote: >> Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? > > Yes I am, both the first RAMAC circa 1956 which stood for Random > Access Method of Accounting and Control, and IBM's current large-scale > storage technology which is also called RAMAC, which stands for Raid > Architecture with Multilevel Adaptive Cache. Didn't they stop using the latter sometime in the later 1980s? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 12 21:19:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:19:32 -0400 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <4828F8E8.2070101@neurotica.com> References: <51ea77730805112058m3552c175od4cd086090ed516d@mail.gmail.com> <53FBCEC4-F365-4302-AF8D-FB98132547F3@neurotica.com> <42137.65.126.154.6.1210606285.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <40223.64.62.206.10.1210620725.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4828F8E8.2070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4828FAB4.2050000@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Evan wrote: >> Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? > > Yes I am, both the first RAMAC circa 1956 which stood for Random > Access Method of Accounting and Control, and IBM's current large-scale > storage technology which is also called RAMAC, which stands for Raid > Architecture with Multilevel Adaptive Cache. Didn't they stop using the latter sometime in the later 1980s? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 12 22:11:33 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 23:11:33 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <0K0P0063WZ9P5TK0@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K0P0063WZ9P5TK0@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <482906E5.4080804@neurotica.com> Allison wrote: >>> I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably >>> because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... >> I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even >> here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were >> considered current technology. > > Speak for yourself. I wish that were true. The first version of CP/M > I ran was 1.3 When it was available and 1.4 was much better and useful. > I had access to PDP-8 ion 1969 and PDP10 in 1971 and got my first PDP11 > in 1980(still have it too!). PDP11 stopped being current in the 1990s > when DEC sold the tech and licenses. Up till then you could buy it new > and faster (and then from mentec for years after that). Well not *me* (or you, apparently!), but a lot of people. I cut my teeth in the early 1980s with CP/M, Atari 800, and a PDP-11/34a. I was in my early teen years at the time. I started out in electronics a good bit before that, when I was seven. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon May 12 22:19:18 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 23:19:18 -0400 Subject: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks In-Reply-To: <4828F55E.8040508@neurotica.com> References: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48281CCE.15026.988A72@cclist.sydex.com> <4828F55E.8040508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: You may also want to check out Teledisk, which is what I used to use. And it was nice in that it would only copy tracks/sectors that actually had data, and did compression. so it was fast and created small images. There's another one that escapes me at the moment that did much the same thing, and even support 2.88mb floppies (does anyone still have these?) Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:56:46 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > CC: > Subject: Re: DOS/Floppy backup program benchmarks > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:04:15 -0500 >>> From: Jim Leonard >> >>> What I would love to test is Central Point Backup (PC Backup?) prior to >>> version 6, which is the only version I had available to test. Versions >>> prior to 6 are supposed to contain code that supports the Option Board I >>> have in my 5160 for additional speed -- however, I'm not sure how much >>> speedup I could expect, since some of the faster programs in the >>> shootout must have been operating at a 1:1 intereave (I was writing all >>> 40 tracks both sides in less than 30 seconds per disk; can it get any >>> faster than that?). >> >> I'll dig out the old FastBack and see if I've got an older CP backup-- >> I may well have. > > Ahh yes, I was beating my head against the wall trying to remember > that name. I used FastBack all the time when I was writing database > apps under DOS. We used it around the office to move files around, and > between work and home. It's actually a really nice package as I recall. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL _________________________________________________________________ Enter today for your chance to win $1000 a day?today until May 12th. Learn more at SignInAndWIN.ca http://g.msn.ca/ca55/215 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 12 19:45:52 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:45:52 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K0S00A5974L2QJ0@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:05:54 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If one wants to enjoy a "vintage" experience, what sense is there in >> being diskless? At any rate, even something as simple as a WD1770- >> type controller added to the design would give that capability with a >> minimum of support "glue". > >Agreed. > >> Alternatively, one could stay diskless and add a sound-effects module >> to emulate the "chunk" and "grrr" of a head-load and seek--and the >> "thunk-click" of a drive door being opened and a floppy inserted. > >And the high-pitched squeal of a disk shedding its coating in the drive... >(maybe a dip-switch for "Wabash mode"? :-) > >Personally I'm all for adding to vintage systems (hard disks where none were >originally supported, video additions etc.) if it makes the system a little >easier for frequent use - but not at the expense of original features. Part of >the 'experience' is being able to enjoy the system as it was originally used, >after all. (Similarly, I'm in awe of emulator writers - but give me the >original hardware any day...) > >cheers > >Jules I run the other extreme. I had the experiences, all the gory ones too. I still, Run Kaypro, AmproLB+, NS* horizon, CCS and Visual 1050 with real disks of all sorts. So what I do is build now what I was wishing I could build then whith parts that were unavailable then or frightenly expensive. Things like megabyte sized ramdisks and romdisks, fast storage that can beat the Teltek HDC and Q540 disk. It's about the code, the applications and if possible as much performance as I ever had only it runs on a few penlite cells. Most of all it's hacking hardware. I have many really good emulators/simulators and theres nothing like running one of those without brakes an a 2.4ghz dualcore to make one wish a real 100mhz++ Z80 really existed. Haven't you ever used a SD Horizon with it's whopping 82K per disk and a max of three drives and wondered what it would be like with three 8mb drives that run at CPU speeds back then or even now? I have and I've done it side by side! It's a kick to run a DBASE project that took 10 minutes to index on two floppies and see it done in a small fraction of the time. I not only open the envelope I punch holes in the corners. Back the I did "what if.." and even now I still do "what if..". Allison From vrs at msn.com Tue May 13 02:46:05 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 00:46:05 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 ICs References: <002201c8b439$15c7a480$4156ed80$@com> Message-ID: From: "Bob Armstrong" > >Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >>Are you looking to repair a TD8E, specifically? Those look like simple >> B/!A switches, activated by SDRD and SDRC instructions. > > Yep, I've got a real TD8E to fix that has two bad 8235s on it. Both > chips > have one output that's stuck low and right now I can't even plug the TD8E > into the machine - it hangs the OMNIBUS when you do. The board looks nice > and clean, though, so I'm hoping that's all that's wrong. > > I did a little research and the 74xx TTL family has many AND-OR-INVERT > type gates (e.g. 7451, 74S64, etc) but even ignoring pinouts and output > drive capability, none of them are equivalent to the DEC8235. The DEC > part > has active low inputs (it's really an "INVERT-AND-OR-INVERT" gate) that > nobody else seems to have, so replacing 'em with off the shelf parts would > take at least another chip. There are enough extra inverters in E01 that I believe you could replace E01, E05, E10, and E15 with two AS756, an AS757, and the H04 from E01, giving the same chip count (but much different pinouts). I don't know a source for the 20 pin DIP versions of the AS75x chips offhand, though, and it would still be a bit of a kludge. > Does anybody know if the DEC8235 is the same as the National DM8235? I > don't have a source for the DM8235 either, but at least that sounds easier > to find. The chips on my board look like they have National logos on > them, > but they're house marked with the DEC part number. They're also stamped > "7419", but that's almost certainly a date code - a real 7419 is an > inverter > of some kind. According to www.nteinc.com, the SN38235N, NE8235L, N8235, N8235N, N8235F, ECG8235, and NTE8235 are all possibilities. From the datasheets, the MCC8235, MCC7235, MC7235, and MC8235 are also possibilities. Sourcing any of them will be challenging, though. Mouser claims to be able to order NTE8235, but there's no order pending or delivery date. ($9.09 each.) I can't find any information on a DM8235. Vince From cheri-post at web.de Tue May 13 03:03:51 2008 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:03:51 +0200 Subject: Miniscribe 6085 Message-ID: <510729942@web.de> Hey, I have such a drive. During the upcoming weekend, I'll have a look for the parts, you're interested in. Kind regards, Pierre > > On May 11, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don;'t have this drive, but I am conserned as to why it failed. > > Presumably it carried too much current, but why? > > Tony; > > It's part of a voltage filter circuit, yes. It failed as a result of a > short in a capacitor elsewhere in the circuit. I know what the > capacitor's characteristics were, so it can be replaced. I do not know > what the inductor's characteristics were; I need to find out before it > can be replaced. > > ok > bear > _________________________________________________________________________ In 5 Schritten zur eigenen Homepage. Jetzt Domain sichern und gestalten! Nur 3,99 EUR/Monat! http://www.maildomain.web.de/?mc=021114 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue May 13 05:15:11 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:15:11 +0100 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <200805121701.m4CH13tA088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805121701.m4CH13tA088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <591D2627-545E-4FE8-A384-00F3F8329968@microspot.co.uk> > Message: 22 > Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:57:16 -0500 > From: "Jason T" > Subject: Re: Another classic comp job > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Evan Koblentz > wrote: >> Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? > > > Could they really still have a running RAMAC? > Why not? Early computers were built to last, some still are but competitive pressure means 'commodity' machines seem to be lucky to last more than twice their (UK) legal one year warranty period. My (1962) 1301 can even still read the magnetic tapes which were last written in the 1970s and the drums still had the bootstrap program on the write protected bands (of similar age) once we had got the timing logic adjusted back to specification. When designing something as revolutionary as RAMAC, they would over engineer and only in later designs start paring things down. A few revolutionary designs do of course have weak points and they either don't make it past prototype stage or the market soon finds the weakness and stops buying them. From trebor72 at execpc.com Tue May 13 06:44:18 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 06:44:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for a COMPATICARD II 8 BIT Message-ID: <48297F12.6070505@execpc.com> I am Looking for a COMPATICARD II 8 BIT Bob in Wisconsin USE trebor72 at execpc.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue May 13 08:45:37 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:45:37 -0400 Subject: Backronyms Message-ID: <48296341020000370002B28F@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Dave writes: > and IBM's current large-scale > storage technology which is also called RAMAC, which stands for Raid > Architecture with Multilevel Adaptive Cache. Wow, that's a backronym I never would've dreamt up! I once contracted at a place where in the memos they actually wrote Dazdee and Raymack. And instead of ASCII they wrote ASC2 ! If I used any of the terms correctly they made me edit them to the approved way... it was a pretty bizarre inbred culture there! Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 13 09:49:54 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 08:49:54 -0600 Subject: Backronyms In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 May 2008 09:45:37 -0400. <48296341020000370002B28F@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: In article <48296341020000370002B28F at gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com>, "Tim Shoppa" writes: > [...] And instead of ASCII they wrote ASC2 ! I would have expected ASKIE.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 13 12:13:48 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:13:48 -0700 Subject: Another classic comp job In-Reply-To: <200805131017.m4DAHqEE099346@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805131017.m4DAHqEE099346@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482969DC.416.5AD8196@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:11:52 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Evan wrote: > > Dave, are you not familiar with RAMAC? > > Yes I am, both the first RAMAC circa 1956 which stood for Random > Access Method of Accounting and Control, and IBM's current large-scale > storage technology which is also called RAMAC, which stands for Raid > Architecture with Multilevel Adaptive Cache. This reminds me of the Monty Python Cole Porter-"Anything Goes" skit. :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 13 12:33:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:33:42 -0700 Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <200805131017.m4DAHqEE099346@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805131017.m4DAHqEE099346@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48296E86.31996.5BFBBB5@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:13:59 +0100 (BST) From: Tony Duell > Actually, I htink there's a smaller one. DIdn't at least one of the > Soviet handheld computers (Elektronika MK85 or some such) have a > PDP11-compatible CPU chip inside? Yeah, I missed his classifying the handhelds under "calculators" (he's got a great collection of calculators also). The wallet-sized MK-87 uses the same PDP-11 clone chip. BTW, the owner of the site has a great little project he worked out-- a terminal consisting of nothing more than an ATMega16 uC and RS232 level translators to produce a composite video signal (PAL) driving a 32x29 character display. Very clever: http://rk86.com/frolov/vi_frs.htm Includes source code and schematic. Text is in Russian, but is quite readable translated by Google language tools. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 13 13:22:40 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is this the smallest PDP-11 compatible? In-Reply-To: <48296E86.31996.5BFBBB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805131017.m4DAHqEE099346@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48296E86.31996.5BFBBB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805131841.OAA01195@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > BTW, the owner of the site has a great little project he worked out-- > a terminal consisting of nothing more than an ATMega16 uC and RS232 > level translators to produce a composite video signal (PAL) driving a > 32x29 character display. Does the chip contain some kind of video generator built in, or is he bit-banging video? 32x29 with a 7x8 character cell means 3118080 pixels per screen. With no allowance for retrace overhead, that means between 5 and 6 clock cycles per pixel (I see a 16MHz crystal on the schematic)...not that difficult with a superscalar CPU core, but this is a microcontroller.... Of course, I could probably work this out from the code, but that would take a good deal of staring at the code. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 13 13:43:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Backronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080513113945.E93287@shell.lmi.net> > > [...] And instead of ASCII they wrote ASC2 ! > > I would have expected ASKIE.... . . . or ASKY I get really annoyed with those who think that it is a Roman Numeral 2. I used to tell my students that if they were ever in a class where the instructor called it ASCII TWO, that they should walk out then and there, and get a refund. That's worse than thinking that a megabyte is 2^10 * 10^3 From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue May 13 15:44:42 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandem T16/6530 terminals up for grabs Message-ID: I have four Tandem T16/6530 terminals. Before I recycle them, is anyone interested in one or more? I will want a minimal amount to cover time/packing. Contact me off-list if you're interested. You have until May 20 before they get turned into iPods. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mardy at voysys.com Tue May 13 16:12:34 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:12:34 -0400 Subject: Looking for information on Micro-Term ACT-I Terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get information, specs, manuals, schematics, etc. on an ACT-I terminal? TIA -Mardy From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue May 13 17:27:29 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:27:29 +0000 Subject: Tortured Acronyms (was Re: Backronyms) In-Reply-To: <48296341020000370002B28F@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <48296341020000370002B28F@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20080513222729.GA6683@usap.gov> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 09:45:37AM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I once contracted at a place where in the memos they actually > wrote Dazdee and Raymack. And instead of ASCII they wrote ASC2 ! > If I used any of the terms correctly they made me edit them > to the approved way... it was a pretty bizarre inbred culture there! Long ago, I heard "ASC2" and wondered what they were thinking. 20-ish years ago, I read a story in "The DEC Professional" or some similar rag about a guy who got his job based on whose brother-in-law he was, not based on job skills. He was calling into DEC support about a broken MicroVAX, claiming the "Kaypoo Cashay" was broken. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-May-2008 at 22:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.7 F (-65.4 C) Windchill -117.4 F (-83.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.5 kts Grid 71 Barometer 682.5 mb (10534 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 17:51:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:51:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Backronyms In-Reply-To: <20080513113945.E93287@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 13, 8 11:43:55 am Message-ID: > > > > [...] And instead of ASCII they wrote ASC2 ! > > > > I would have expected ASKIE.... > > . . . or ASKY > > I get really annoyed with those who think that it is a Roman Numeral 2. What about those who call a well-know editor 'six'? And yes, I have heard that... -tony From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue May 13 18:44:46 2008 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:44:46 -0700 Subject: Looking for information on Micro-Term ACT-I Terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40D12BF96A2849CC9913708AFBDDA946@NFORCE4> Hello Mardy, I grabbed one of these off of eBay a few months back and it came with the "Technical Manual" for the ACT-I, Revision C. I'll throw it on the scanner and I'll have a PDF for you and Al K. hopefully this evening. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marden P. Marshall Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Looking for information on Micro-Term ACT-I Terminal Does anyone know where I can get information, specs, manuals, schematics, etc. on an ACT-I terminal? TIA -Mardy From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 13 20:34:21 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 Message-ID: <200805140134.m4E1YLFe015220@floodgap.com> I'm inquiring to see if anyone has a spare 10/100 card for the Apple Network Server line. This is different than the usual Power Macintosh 10/100 FAST Ethernet card -- it resembles that card, but has two LEDs (IIRC) instead of four. If you have one that you are willing to part with or deal over, please contact me off list. It would go to a good home, namely my 500 and 700 systems (the 500 is sending you this message, in fact, and has been my primary production server since 1998). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All the sensitive [men] get eaten. -- "Ice Age" ---------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 13 20:44:59 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:44:59 -0700 Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: <200805140134.m4E1YLFe015220@floodgap.com> References: <200805140134.m4E1YLFe015220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:34 PM -0700 5/13/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I'm inquiring to see if anyone has a spare 10/100 card for the Apple Network >Server line. This is different than the usual Power Macintosh 10/100 FAST >Ethernet card -- it resembles that card, but has two LEDs (IIRC) instead of >four. If you have one that you are willing to part with or deal over, please >contact me off list. It would go to a good home, namely my 500 and 700 systems >(the 500 is sending you this message, in fact, and has been my primary >production server since 1998). Will pretty much any card with a DEC chip on it work? Though come to think of it I think I went the other way and put an Apple NIC from my 8500/180 into an AlphaStation 200 4/233 so maybe not. This is old enough that it requires special firmware doesn't it? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 13 21:02:19 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:02:19 -0700 Subject: [Semi-OT] Outfits that *PACK* and Ship? Message-ID: The library is looking at a large collection of books, only one slight problem, the seller won't back and ship. Local pickup isn't really an option for us, as it's on the East Coast. Does anyone know of any legit outfits that will show up at a storage unit, pack and ship stuff? I figure even though these aren't computer books (in this case) this is close enough to on topic since there are those of us that have problems like this with computer stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bear at typewritten.org Tue May 13 21:06:19 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:06:19 -0700 Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: References: <200805140134.m4E1YLFe015220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:34 PM -0700 5/13/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'm inquiring to see if anyone has a spare 10/100 card for the Apple > Network Server line. This is different than the usual Power > Macintosh 10/100 FAST Ethernet card You should be able to use an RS/6000 Type 9-P 10/100 Ethernet TX card. They are much easier to find than the Apple card, and are electrically equivalent. ok bear From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 13 21:13:23 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:13:23 -0700 Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: References: <200805140134.m4E1YLFe015220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <482A4AC3.3010209@mdrconsult.com> r.stricklin wrote: > > At 6:34 PM -0700 5/13/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'm inquiring to see if anyone has a spare 10/100 card for the Apple >> Network Server line. This is different than the usual Power Macintosh >> 10/100 FAST Ethernet card > > You should be able to use an RS/6000 Type 9-P 10/100 Ethernet TX card. > They are much easier to find than the Apple card, and are electrically > equivalent. And I happen to have an Imperial buttload of type 9-P cards. Get me a mailing address offlist and we'll discuss shipping. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 13 21:13:22 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: from "r.stricklin" at "May 13, 8 07:06:19 pm" Message-ID: <200805140213.m4E2DMQj017218@floodgap.com> > > I'm inquiring to see if anyone has a spare 10/100 card for the Apple > > Network Server line. This is different than the usual Power > > Macintosh 10/100 FAST Ethernet card > > You should be able to use an RS/6000 Type 9-P 10/100 Ethernet TX card. > They are much easier to find than the Apple card, and are electrically > equivalent. Will OpenFirmware configure these? I haven't looked at the ROM on the Apple card to know if it has special OF words in it. OTOH, as long as AIX likes it ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Isaiah 30:15 --------------------------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 13 21:14:39 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 13, 8 06:44:59 pm" Message-ID: <200805140214.m4E2EdCX017246@floodgap.com> > > I'm inquiring to see if anyone has a spare 10/100 card for the Apple > > Network Server line. This is different than the usual Power Macintosh > > 10/100 FAST Ethernet card -- it resembles that card, but has two LEDs > > (IIRC) instead of four. If you have one that you are willing to part with > > or deal over, please contact me off list. It would go to a good home, > > namely my 500 and 700 systems (the 500 is sending you this message, in > > fact, and has been my primary production server since 1998). > Will pretty much any card with a DEC chip on it work? Though come to > think of it I think I went the other way and put an Apple NIC from my > 8500/180 into an AlphaStation 200 4/233 so maybe not. This is old > enough that it requires special firmware doesn't it? Right. I don't think those will (although the Apple NICs usually used some sort of Tulip controller, so I'm not surprised the DEC worked okay with it). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You can overcome any obstacle. Try a steeplechase. ---------------- From djg at pdp8.net Tue May 13 21:19:50 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:19:50 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs Message-ID: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >Does anybody know if the DEC8235 is the same as the National DM8235? > Doesn't look likely. The DM8230 isn't the same as the Signetics 8230. The DEC82xx parts seem to be the Signetics 82xx parts. >Mouser claims to be able to order NTE8235, but there's no order pending or >delivery date. ($9.09 each.) > http://www.rselectronics.com/ seems to claim stock. This company search says they have non NTE parts. I used them in 1999 to get a part and the minimum order then was $50. http://www.hrent.com/inv.htm Who knows what has changed since then, the search is using an outside site. They also list the MM57109N from another message. Post back if you do use them. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 13 22:00:18 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:00:18 -0700 Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: <200805140214.m4E2EdCX017246@floodgap.com> References: <200805140214.m4E2EdCX017246@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:14 PM -0700 5/13/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Right. I don't think those will (although the Apple NICs usually used >some sort of Tulip controller, so I'm not surprised the DEC worked okay with >it). Yeah, I forgot you're dealing with "Aches". :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 13 23:14:56 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for 10/100 card for Apple Network Server 500/700 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 13, 8 08:00:18 pm" Message-ID: <200805140414.m4E4Eu64016080@floodgap.com> > > Right. I don't think those will (although the Apple NICs usually used > > some sort of Tulip controller, so I'm not surprised the DEC worked okay > > with it). > > Yeah, I forgot you're dealing with "Aches". :^) Ayuh, tis AIX. :-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Okay, who stopped payment on my reality check? ----------------------------- From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed May 14 03:28:20 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:28:20 +0100 Subject: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BB8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002701c8b59c$77ffaf30$961ca8c0@mss.local> 0-24 thats 0-16 Dec. Don't know the 8's but that would suggest to me that 4 bits (1 chips worth) are stuck somewhere leading to some address decoding ?. Does it repeat higher up the addresses ?. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed > Now that's interesting.. > > I have a PDP-8/e as well. I can't store in locations 000 000 000 000 to > 000 000 011 000 (0 - 24 Dec) > Above is OK > > > If somebody has an answer to your problem. They might know something > about mune. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G. Thomas > Sent: 09 May 2008 16:36 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed > > Hi, > > I've got a PDP-8E which I've almost got working. > > Can anyone here help me figure out this remaining problem? > > As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then go back > to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address higher than > 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they go low, as soon > as I hit the examine switch to step to the next memory location. > > I can manually load an address 1000000 or 10000000, and hit examine to > see 1000001, 1000010, 1000011, etc..., but once I reach 1001111, it's > back to 1000000. > > It was recommended to me that it might be the carry between E52 and E37, > or the E38 input multiplexer for bit 7 (on M8300), so last night I > socketed and replaced all three of those ICs, but I still see the same > symptoms. > > I have extender boards, so can access M8300 during operation. I measured > the carry line between E52 and E37 go low when I reach 1111, but the > light for line 10000 doesn't light on the front panel on the next > address, and I see the data from memory location 0000, 0001, etc. > repeated, displayed as I continue to step through memory locations, as > described above. > > Of course, if someone has a spare M8300 they would be willing to sell > me, that's another option. > > Mark > > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) > voice: 215-591-3695 > http://mail-cleaner.com/ > > > > > From bob at jfcl.com Wed May 14 12:54:56 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:54:56 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <002601c8b5eb$9f064770$dd12d650$@com> >The DEC82xx parts seem to be the Signetics 82xx parts. FWIW, I can now confirm that the Signetics N8235 will work for the DEC8235. Another collector kindly gave me a couple, and I'm set for those now. I replaced the 8235s and another bad IC on the TD8E that I found after that (a DEC5380, which seems to be the same as the SP380, which is also the 8T380 which is also the DM8836 :-), and the TD8E appears to be OK. Or at least better; it's still not working but now I'm convinced that there's something funky going on inside the drive's electronics. I'll have to track that down next. Thanks again, Bob From bob at jfcl.com Wed May 14 13:09:14 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:09:14 -0700 Subject: TU56 question... Message-ID: <002701c8b5ed$9e5757e0$db0607a0$@com> Now that my TD8E is fixed (maybe - I'm keeping my fingers crossed here) I'm having problems with the TU56 drive electronics. Nothing works, neither the diagnostic (DHTDAB) nor the OS/8 drivers. Poking around, I've discovered that the RTT ("Read Timing Track") output from the drive has a constant square wave of about 400kHz (2.5us period), regardless of what the drive is doing. It's there whether no matter which unit is selected, no matter whether any unit is selected, no matter whether the tape is moving or stopped, and even if there's no tape on the drive at all. This is from checking the RTT output from the drive right at the cable connector on the TD8E with a scope. If I understand the way the TU56 works, then this a) about 15x the frequency I'd expect to see on the timing track and b) I wouldn't expect there to be an output from the TT when the tape isn't moving. Am I right that this is really screwed up, or do I just not understand how it works? Thanks, Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 14 13:45:39 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:45:39 -0700 Subject: TU56 question... Message-ID: <482B3353.3080104@bitsavers.org> > Poking around, I've discovered that the RTT ("Read Timing Track") output > from the drive has a constant square wave of about 400kHz > Am I right > that this is really screwed up, or do I just not understand how it works? -- That's the way it works. It drops to the correct frequency when the tape is moving. TC-11's and 08's depend on this in the 'up to speed' circuit. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed May 14 13:46:13 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:46:13 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem Message-ID: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> Hi folks, I just dug my old Osborne OCC1 (1st model, in the beige vacuum-formed ABS case), only to find all is not well. Actually, "finding" all is not well is a bit of a white lie - I already knew it was in trouble, from when I last tried to boot it about 2 years ago... Unfortunately, the intervening 2 years have failed to fix the problem, which is that the video seems to have no horizontal hold. It took a few goes, but eventually it booted from a CP/M disk; with scrambled video. The links below are to a picture & two versions of the same video (16 seconds of special-effects laden trickery...): PIC: The startup screen in scrambled fashion: http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.jpg VID: Booting to CP/M: MOV format (4mb): http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mov MPEG2 format (9mb): http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mpg Please excuse the camera wobble on the movie... The constant high-pitch whine is, I think, the image stabiliser in my camera working away. Now.... If I pull the termination block off the External Video connector, the screen goes out (as one would expect); push it back on & the screen comes back on with the display as steady as a rock -- unfortunately, it's crashed the computer... From this, I deduce that it must be something in the mainboard electronics that's failed (a cap, maybe?), rather than something in the monitor unit. Any ideas where to start looking? I have an oscilloscope (albeit I've forgotten how to use it, and am not 100% sure where the probes are), and a multimeter... beyond that, not a lot. I've tried cleaning the contacts to the monitor, and around the Ext Vid. termination block; and I've wiggled the three cable connectors to the mainboard a few times to clean them up. I've also popped each of the three socketed chips in & out a couple of time to clean the legs up. Finally, I soldered the contrast knob back together - one of the legs had broken. Basically, everything works except for the shaky video. Sometimes you see a whole page full of 1s, or 0s; essentially, it's all a bit random. Bad connection somewhere, perhaps, or maybe a failing chip? Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1431 - Release Date: 13/05/2008 19:55 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 14 13:50:23 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TU56 question... In-Reply-To: <002701c8b5ed$9e5757e0$db0607a0$@com> References: <002701c8b5ed$9e5757e0$db0607a0$@com> Message-ID: <55730.64.62.206.10.1210791023.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Bob wrote: > Poking around, I've discovered that the RTT ("Read Timing Track") output > from the drive has a constant square wave of about 400kHz (2.5us period), > regardless of what the drive is doing. It's there whether no matter > which unit is selected, no matter whether any unit is selected, no matter > whether the tape is moving or stopped, and even if there's no tape on the > drive at all. This is from checking the RTT output from the drive right > at the cable connector on the TD8E with a scope. The G888 sense amps are designed to oscillate when no input is present. From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 14 14:23:59 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:23:59 +0200 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <232EEBBCE5924EF4B59A4404A20BB39C@xp1800> Ade, I don't know the internals of the Osborne but can help you with some repair rules of thump . First step, is checking the boards visual for corosion and bad solder joints (crystaline with a round marking in the solder) good joints are shiny and curved, if you don't trust one remove the old solder and resolder. And of cause scheck the board for burned and broken components Second step, is to locate the power supply and check the voltages with a multimeter, after that you check them with the scope for ripple and spikes. Typical PSU should have no more then 100-300mV ripple spikes and noise. If there is a lot of noise or spikes check the decoupling Elco's and tantalium C's if you have a lot of ripple that indicates a bad ripple elco in the PSU. Sometimes placing a few 200nF C's over the +5V rejects a lot of noise and will give you a good indication were to look (decoupling C's) Third, check components for heat development, heated components indicates shortcuts. When old electronics is stowed away in storages for a long time, elcos are going to degrade and eventualy won't work at all. The picture your showing indicates a fault in the horizontal sync circuit of the video, pausible cause degraded elco's. This also can be the cause at a bad startup due to a short reset time, witch would be caused by a elco with a too low capacity. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ade Vickers" To: "CCTalk" Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:46 PM Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem > Hi folks, > > I just dug my old Osborne OCC1 (1st model, in the beige vacuum-formed ABS > case), only to find all is not well. Actually, "finding" all is not well > is > a bit of a white lie - I already knew it was in trouble, from when I last > tried to boot it about 2 years ago... > > Unfortunately, the intervening 2 years have failed to fix the problem, > which > is that the video seems to have no horizontal hold. > > It took a few goes, but eventually it booted from a CP/M disk; with > scrambled video. The links below are to a picture & two versions of the > same > video (16 seconds of special-effects laden trickery...): > > > PIC: The startup screen in scrambled fashion: > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.jpg > > VID: Booting to CP/M: > MOV format (4mb): http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mov > MPEG2 format (9mb): > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mpg > > Please excuse the camera wobble on the movie... The constant high-pitch > whine is, I think, the image stabiliser in my camera working away. > > Now.... If I pull the termination block off the External Video connector, > the screen goes out (as one would expect); push it back on & the screen > comes back on with the display as steady as a rock -- unfortunately, it's > crashed the computer... From this, I deduce that it must be something in > the > mainboard electronics that's failed (a cap, maybe?), rather than something > in the monitor unit. > > > Any ideas where to start looking? I have an oscilloscope (albeit I've > forgotten how to use it, and am not 100% sure where the probes are), and a > multimeter... beyond that, not a lot. > > I've tried cleaning the contacts to the monitor, and around the Ext Vid. > termination block; and I've wiggled the three cable connectors to the > mainboard a few times to clean them up. I've also popped each of the three > socketed chips in & out a couple of time to clean the legs up. Finally, I > soldered the contrast knob back together - one of the legs had broken. > > Basically, everything works except for the shaky video. Sometimes you see > a > whole page full of 1s, or 0s; essentially, it's all a bit random. Bad > connection somewhere, perhaps, or maybe a failing chip? > > > Cheers! > Ade. > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1431 - Release Date: > 13/05/2008 > 19:55 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1432 - Release Date: 14-5-2008 7:49 From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 14 14:33:31 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:33:31 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/80 Magic Smoke In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482B3E8B.8010500@hawkmountain.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Tried to power up a Sun 3/80 mainboard... >> >> Inductor L0500 (right near the power input) (I assume this is an >> inductor by the L0500 >> marking on the PCB) smoked.... (pink smoke no less) >> > > This sseems to be the day for smoking indcutors :-) > > >> Anyone familiar with the 3/80 to give an idea of why this might have smoked. >> > > I've never seen this machine, but from the location of the component, and > the fact that it's an inductor, I would asseum it was part of a DC power > line filter, and it smoked because of a short (to logic ground, most > likely) 'downstream' of said component. > > My first suggestion is to desolder the indcutor from the PCB. Then trace > one of the connections back to the PSU input connector, which will tell > you which power line it's associtated with. If you're lucky it'll be > something like a +12V rail, not used by many components. If you're > unlucky, it'll be the 5V rail that goes everywhere... > I'm unlucky... it is 5V. > Msot likely you'll find the 'other' side of the inductor postion on the > PCB -- the one not conencted to the power connector -- has a low > resistnce to ground. > > There are many 'techniques' for finding such shorts. Pulling all socketed > devices is a good first step, if the short goes away, you know it's one > of the chips you've pulled. Suspecting tantalum capacitors is another > good idea :-). More logical is the idea of applying a low voltage between > the output side of hte inductor and ground, so that a mdoerate current > flows (I would guess areound 1A would be OK here), and using a sensitive > millivoltmeter to measure the voltage drop across components. The shorted > one will test lower than all the others (due to the drop along the PCB > tracks), but you do need a good millivoltmeter for this test. > > I've pulled all socketed components (NVRAM, CPU, FPU, SIMMS, LSI ? chip, BOOT ROM)... still smokes. I've identified 13 surface mount capacitors (not counting teeny ones) on the top side of the board that tie between 5V and ground. On a good board, I get two slightly different ohms readings (39.1 and 39.4 depending on which cap) between their + side and ground. (I'm guessing two different 5V 'rails') On the bad board, I get the same reading on all of the 5V caps. What are the chances that one of these caps are bad ? I know tantalums tend to short, but since I'm familiar with tantalums from working on 80s arcade games, I'm used to the 'bulb' with two legs variety of tantalums. I wouldn't know how to tell if these surface mount caps are tantalum or not. Short of pulling these caps one at a time and metering them out of circuit (I have soldering equipment, but it isn't intended for surface mount... not that I haven't pressed it into that duty before... but because it isnt the 'right' tool... it is tedious and frustrating to make it work for the task... although it isn't too bad on components with just two connections). So far despite the 'smoke' tests.... the inductor has not burned open yet. I doubt it's value is particularly correct at this point... but I can worry about that if I can find and clear the short. It is like a 1watt ? resistor with bands: silver, black, brown, tan/gold ?, and then a very wide silver band (which must be a multiplier, tolerance, etc) Any further suggestions, or should I start pulling caps ? -- Curt > -tony > > From bob at jfcl.com Wed May 14 14:59:39 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:59:39 -0700 Subject: TU56 question... Message-ID: <002f01c8b5fd$0b824820$2286d860$@com> Eric wrote: >The G888 sense amps are designed to oscillate when no input is present. Thanks, Eric - I'm glad I asked. I wrote a little program to read the tapes (only about three lines of code - all it has to do is set the "GO" bit in the TD8E command register) and I find that one of the units does indeed give a nice 30kHz square wave on the timing track while the tape is moving. The other unit unfortunately still gives the bogus 400kHz oscillations no matter what. I'm guessing that must mean that either the R/W head or the relay card is bad. I can test the relay card by swapping it with the other unit, but luck being what it is it's probably the head. Darn - I assume TU56 heads are unobtainable these days. Thanks again, Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 14 15:06:21 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun 3/80 Magic Smoke In-Reply-To: <482B3E8B.8010500@hawkmountain.net> References: <482B3E8B.8010500@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <54339.64.62.206.10.1210795581.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Curtis wrote: > I know tantalums tend to > short, They may short, but usually only in the process of going open in a spectacular way. If they don't look abnormal, and the ohmmeter doesn't indicate that they're shorted, then they aren't your problem. Eric From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 14 16:21:20 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:21:20 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/80 Magic Smoke In-Reply-To: <54339.64.62.206.10.1210795581.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <482B3E8B.8010500@hawkmountain.net> <54339.64.62.206.10.1210795581.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <482B57D0.7050105@hawkmountain.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Curtis wrote: > >> I know tantalums tend to >> short, >> > > They may short, but usually only in the process of going open in a > spectacular way. If they don't look abnormal, and the ohmmeter doesn't > indicate that they're shorted, then they aren't your problem. > > Eric > > drat.... how can I find out what is shorted... the whole board uses 5V... that means it could be any component.... but no components are puckering, blistering, smoking (other than the inductor), etc.... Maybe I'm not going to get this board back ? -- Curt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 14 16:19:20 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:19:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> from "Ade Vickers" at May 14, 8 07:46:13 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > I just dug my old Osborne OCC1 (1st model, in the beige vacuum-formed ABS > case), only to find all is not well. Actually, "finding" all is not well is > a bit of a white lie - I already knew it was in trouble, from when I last > tried to boot it about 2 years ago... > > Unfortunately, the intervening 2 years have failed to fix the problem, which > is that the video seems to have no horizontal hold. [...] > > Now.... If I pull the termination block off the External Video connector, > the screen goes out (as one would expect); push it back on & the screen > comes back on with the display as steady as a rock -- unfortunately, it's > crashed the computer... From this, I deduce that it must be something in the > mainboard electronics that's failed (a cap, maybe?), rather than something > in the monitor unit. Now, I don;t know this machine at all, but I am assuming the mainboad contains the video and sync generation circuitry, while the 'monitor' contains the deflection circuits that lock to said sync signals, the video amplifier, HV generator, etc. Are the signals between the monitor and mainboard separate syncs and video or a composite video signal? It is my expeireince that this sort of prolem is caused by a failing component arouund the horizontal oscillator / PLL / sync circuit. It's unlikely to be a digial problem. And this is a horizontal problem (picture breaks up into sloping likes)not a vertical problem (picture rolls), right? If you do have seaprate signals to the monitor, start by 'scoping the horizontal sync signal while the monitor is malfunctioning. Is it the right frequency and stable? Then, if there's a horizotnal frequency control on the monitor PCB (it might be an inductor!), try carefully tweaking it. The idea is to (a) see if the thing will jump into lock, or if not, at least if you can get it to slope both ways (that is, can the horizotnal oscillator run above and elow the right frequency, if so, it's a good bet it'll work _at_ the right frequency, and that the problem is in the sync circuit). -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed May 14 17:08:08 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <913411.97313.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> It is said to never remove the external video connector with the power on, or you risk damaging the video circuitry. In what manner, I do not know. --- On Wed, 5/14/08, Ade Vickers wrote: > From: Ade Vickers > Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem > To: "CCTalk" > Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008, 11:46 AM > Hi folks, > > I just dug my old Osborne OCC1 (1st model, in the beige > vacuum-formed ABS > case), only to find all is not well. Actually, > "finding" all is not well is > a bit of a white lie - I already knew it was in trouble, > from when I last > tried to boot it about 2 years ago... > > Unfortunately, the intervening 2 years have failed to fix > the problem, which > is that the video seems to have no horizontal hold. > > It took a few goes, but eventually it booted from a CP/M > disk; with > scrambled video. The links below are to a picture & two > versions of the same > video (16 seconds of special-effects laden trickery...): > > > PIC: The startup screen in scrambled fashion: > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.jpg > > VID: Booting to CP/M: > MOV format (4mb): > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mov > MPEG2 format (9mb): > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mpg > > Please excuse the camera wobble on the movie... The > constant high-pitch > whine is, I think, the image stabiliser in my camera > working away. > > Now.... If I pull the termination block off the External > Video connector, > the screen goes out (as one would expect); push it back on > & the screen > comes back on with the display as steady as a rock -- > unfortunately, it's > crashed the computer... From this, I deduce that it must be > something in the > mainboard electronics that's failed (a cap, maybe?), > rather than something > in the monitor unit. > > > Any ideas where to start looking? I have an oscilloscope > (albeit I've > forgotten how to use it, and am not 100% sure where the > probes are), and a > multimeter... beyond that, not a lot. > > I've tried cleaning the contacts to the monitor, and > around the Ext Vid. > termination block; and I've wiggled the three cable > connectors to the > mainboard a few times to clean them up. I've also > popped each of the three > socketed chips in & out a couple of time to clean the > legs up. Finally, I > soldered the contrast knob back together - one of the legs > had broken. > > Basically, everything works except for the shaky video. > Sometimes you see a > whole page full of 1s, or 0s; essentially, it's all a > bit random. Bad > connection somewhere, perhaps, or maybe a failing chip? > > > Cheers! > Ade. > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1431 - Release > Date: 13/05/2008 > 19:55 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 14 18:12:45 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:12:45 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <200805141912.45609.rtellason@verizon.net> There's no "u" in Osborne! :-) On Wednesday 14 May 2008 14:46, Ade Vickers wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just dug my old Osborne OCC1 (1st model, in the beige vacuum-formed ABS > case), only to find all is not well. Actually, "finding" all is not well is > a bit of a white lie - I already knew it was in trouble, from when I last > tried to boot it about 2 years ago... > > Unfortunately, the intervening 2 years have failed to fix the problem, > which is that the video seems to have no horizontal hold. > > It took a few goes, but eventually it booted from a CP/M disk; with > scrambled video. The links below are to a picture & two versions of the > same video (16 seconds of special-effects laden trickery...): > > > PIC: The startup screen in scrambled fashion: > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.jpg > > VID: Booting to CP/M: > MOV format (4mb): http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mov > MPEG2 format (9mb): > http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mpg > > Please excuse the camera wobble on the movie... The constant high-pitch > whine is, I think, the image stabiliser in my camera working away. > > Now.... If I pull the termination block off the External Video connector, > the screen goes out (as one would expect); push it back on You mean that connector that on most of the ones I've seen have a sticker on the front saying not to remove it while the power is on? > & the screen comes back on with the display as steady as a rock -- Good. What I'd do there is get one of those pencil-shaped ink erasers and rub the contacts on both sides of the board with that connector off of there, and then put it back on, and leave it there. If you still have some erratic operation, you can take little bits of wire-wrap wire and solder them to both sides, which I had to do in at least one case. > unfortunately, it's crashed the computer... From this, I deduce that it must > be something in the mainboard electronics that's failed (a cap, maybe?), > rather than something in the monitor unit. Monitor not getting sync would be a problem all right and if your display problem went away that easily then maybe just cleaning those contacts up will fix it right up. > Any ideas where to start looking? I have an oscilloscope (albeit I've > forgotten how to use it, and am not 100% sure where the probes are), and a > multimeter... beyond that, not a lot. > > I've tried cleaning the contacts to the monitor, and around the Ext Vid. > termination block; and I've wiggled the three cable connectors to the > mainboard a few times to clean them up. I've also popped each of the three > socketed chips in & out a couple of time to clean the legs up. Finally, I > soldered the contrast knob back together - one of the legs had broken. > > Basically, everything works except for the shaky video. Sometimes you see a > whole page full of 1s, or 0s; essentially, it's all a bit random. Bad > connection somewhere, perhaps, or maybe a failing chip? Ok, so you're getting solid video or shaky video? I thought you had said that wiggling the connector fixed that...? And does this unit have a screen-pac upgrade? If so, it'll have an RCA jack in one corner of the front panel, you can feed that to a composite-input monitor. If not we'll have to work on what's there. I'd have a look at the outputs of the power supply, start out with the unit off and the power disconnected and _don't_ touch that big power transistor or it _will_ bite! Stay on the output side and measure what's there. The +5, and + and -12 should be within 5% of where they're supposed to be, particularly the +5. Better yet would be to scope them and see how much trash is there. You might have power supply issues. Or you might have monitor issues, too. I can recall reading about some monitor problems in those machines or maybe Execs that turned out to be bad capacitors but I can't recall which ones and I don't have those issues of Foghorn handy any more. I *might* have power supply schematics for that unit, I'll have to look. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 14 18:37:08 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:37:08 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> djg at pdp8.net wrote: > http://www.hrent.com/inv.htm > > They also list the MM57109N from another message. > Thanks for the headsup. I sent them a RFQ for a price. =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 14 19:07:26 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> Message-ID: <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan wrote: > Thanks for the headsup. > I sent them a RFQ for a price. Let us know if you get a reply. In my experience chip brokers won't bother to reply even if you're offering $250 per line item (e.g., 25 pieces at $10 each, or 5 pieces at $50 each). The other thing about chip brokers is that they don't have ANY stock. All they have is a subscription to some industry database or an aggregation of databases, such as Loadparts. The database lists parts that someone else somewhere claims to have. Naturally the broker will not tell you who actually has the parts, since that would eliminate their "usefulness" as a middleman. Perhaps if you buy a Loadparts subscription you can find out who really has the parts. I'm mildly tempted but haven't needed any parts desperately enough to spend $150 for a three month subscription to find out. Hmmm... if there isn't any bigger entry barrier to becoming a parts broker than a $50/month database subscription and putting up a cheesy web site, maybe I should go into that business myself! I'm probably expecting too much of what the Loadparts subscription will do, though. It probably will mostly return results from brokers, and not actually get one any closer to the actual sources. Eric From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 14 19:16:39 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 20:16:39 -0400 Subject: In search of MM57109 by National Semi In-Reply-To: <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <482B80E7.8030406@comcast.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Dan wrote: > >> Would anyone have any of the MM57109 numerical processor chips ? >> > > At one time I had a tube of them, but alas, no longer do. > > Octopart reveals that one of the parts brokers lists them: > > http://www.area51esg.com/search-semiconductorss-capacitors-resistors.htm?part=MM57109N&submit2=Search > > Good luck actually getting any, though. I haven't tried this > particular broker, but none of the ones I've tried in the past would > respond to an RFQ. Apparently even $250 per line item isn't enough > to interest them. > Good news. I just rcvd the RFQ from Area51esg.com I bought some, only $5 each for 7 pieces =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 14 19:24:52 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 20:24:52 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200805142024.52368.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 14 May 2008 20:07, Eric Smith wrote: > Dan wrote: > > Thanks for the headsup. > > I sent them a RFQ for a price. > > Let us know if you get a reply. In my experience chip brokers won't > bother to reply even if you're offering $250 per line item > (e.g., 25 pieces at $10 each, or 5 pieces at $50 each). > > The other thing about chip brokers is that they don't have ANY stock. > All they have is a subscription to some industry database or an > aggregation of databases, such as Loadparts. The database lists parts > that someone else somewhere claims to have. Naturally the broker will > not tell you who actually has the parts, since that would eliminate > their "usefulness" as a middleman. > > Perhaps if you buy a Loadparts subscription you can find out who > really has the parts. I'm mildly tempted but haven't needed any > parts desperately enough to spend $150 for a three month subscription > to find out. > > Hmmm... if there isn't any bigger entry barrier to becoming a parts > broker than a $50/month database subscription and putting up a cheesy > web site, maybe I should go into that business myself! > > I'm probably expecting too much of what the Loadparts subscription > will do, though. It probably will mostly return results from > brokers, and not actually get one any closer to the actual sources. > > Eric If there were some easy way to exclude a lot of that BS from one's searches that would be a truly useful thing. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 14 20:18:48 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In search of MM57109 by National Semi In-Reply-To: <482B80E7.8030406@comcast.net> References: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <482B80E7.8030406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <38859.64.62.206.10.1210814328.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan wrote: > Good news. > I just rcvd the RFQ from Area51esg.com > I bought some, only $5 each for 7 pieces I'm impressed! Thanks for letting us know. I'll add area51esg.com to my AVL. :-) Eric From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 14 22:18:04 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:18:04 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? Message-ID: Hi, While looking at the service manual for the Tektronix 4010/4010-1 and 4014/4014-1 terminals, I came up with an idea for creating a screen capture card for them using the principles from the Tektronix 4631 hard copy unit for the terminals. This would give you the ability to capture a pixel image from the Tektronix terminal's display tube. How many people would be interested in such a project? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 14 22:33:35 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 23:33:35 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On May 14, 2008, at 8:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The other thing about chip brokers is that they don't have ANY stock. > All they have is a subscription to some industry database or an > aggregation of databases, such as Loadparts. The database lists parts > that someone else somewhere claims to have. Naturally the broker will > not tell you who actually has the parts, since that would eliminate > their "usefulness" as a middleman. > > Perhaps if you buy a Loadparts subscription you can find out who > really has the parts. I'm mildly tempted but haven't needed any > parts desperately enough to spend $150 for a three month subscription > to find out. > > Hmmm... if there isn't any bigger entry barrier to becoming a parts > broker than a $50/month database subscription and putting up a cheesy > web site, maybe I should go into that business myself! > > I'm probably expecting too much of what the Loadparts subscription > will do, though. It probably will mostly return results from > brokers, and not actually get one any closer to the actual sources. It almost sounds like there needs to be a classiccmp pseudo- company to take up a collection of money and buy a membership. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue May 13 02:44:05 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 08:44:05 +0100 Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BB8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Now that's interesting.. I have a PDP-8/e as well. I can't store in locations 000 000 000 000 to 000 000 011 000 (0 - 24 Dec) Above is OK If somebody has an answer to your problem. They might know something about mune. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G. Thomas Sent: 09 May 2008 16:36 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed Hi, I've got a PDP-8E which I've almost got working. Can anyone here help me figure out this remaining problem? As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then go back to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address higher than 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they go low, as soon as I hit the examine switch to step to the next memory location. I can manually load an address 1000000 or 10000000, and hit examine to see 1000001, 1000010, 1000011, etc..., but once I reach 1001111, it's back to 1000000. It was recommended to me that it might be the carry between E52 and E37, or the E38 input multiplexer for bit 7 (on M8300), so last night I socketed and replaced all three of those ICs, but I still see the same symptoms. I have extender boards, so can access M8300 during operation. I measured the carry line between E52 and E37 go low when I reach 1111, but the light for line 10000 doesn't light on the front panel on the next address, and I see the data from memory location 0000, 0001, etc. repeated, displayed as I continue to step through memory locations, as described above. Of course, if someone has a spare M8300 they would be willing to sell me, that's another option. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://mail-cleaner.com/ From awolfe at awolfe.org Tue May 13 15:31:23 2008 From: awolfe at awolfe.org (Andrew Wolfe) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:31:23 -0700 Subject: SGI Sirius Video Breakout Box -- do you need the i/f board? Message-ID: <5D38719B062D4CECB29FBA4E8D529CA8@WolfeT42C> Do you have any interest in selling your Sirius video board? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 18:46:21 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a COMPATICARD II 8 BIT In-Reply-To: <48297F12.6070505@execpc.com> Message-ID: <335288.43958.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> off the cuff, if you're looking for one so you can interface an 8" drive to a pc, you might want to look at Dave Dunfield's info (don't ask me the url, just google "Dave's old computers" and you'll find it lickety-split). Unlikely every 8" drive will work, but many will I presume. --- "Robert J. Stevens" wrote: > I am Looking for a COMPATICARD II 8 BIT > Bob in Wisconsin > USE > trebor72 at execpc.com > From metasoft at erols.com Wed May 14 19:03:14 2008 From: metasoft at erols.com (Metasoft) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 20:03:14 -0400 Subject: CPT 9000 Message-ID: <001301c8b61f$125b64c0$0b00a8c0@Metasoft.local> Hi Chris, I've just found your posts about the CPT 9000 computer/word processor you have. I worked for CPT Corp. from 1978 thru 1989 and was one of the principle software developers for the CPT 9000. It was CPT's last effort to combine their dedicated word processing software with the, at the time, new PC-AT 286 computers coming into the market. I have lots of the original software for the 9000, much of it I wrote. Personally, I would be very interested in purchasing this CPT 9000 system. I have been searching for one for a long time. If this e-mail somehow finds you, please reply. I would be a very $$$ serious buyer. Thanks, Rich Jones Metasoft, Inc. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu May 15 01:59:28 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:59:28 +0100 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <200805142024.52368.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805142024.52368.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 20:24 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > If there were some easy way to exclude a lot of that BS from one's searches > that would be a truly useful thing. Yes. I've found this with a lot of datasheet sites, where you end up clicking through lots of pages of shite with "WE HELP YOU BUY BEST PRICE!"-type messages, until you find that they want $5 for a PDF of a datasheet. Another one that's getting bad is people spamming the same product over and over again on eBay - I was looking for a supercharger last night and had to wade through 11 pages of the same crappy "electric supercharger" PC case fan things, all advertised with different car manufacturer names. I wish eBay had a way to exclude particular sellers from searches. Does anyone have the datasheet for an MM57109? How hard would it be to make a replacement, either with an FPGA or a microcontroller or something? Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 15 02:52:41 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:52:41 -0600 Subject: Excluding specific sellers from ebay searches (Was: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 May 2008 07:59:28 +0100. <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> Message-ID: In article <1210834768.8126.7.camel at elric>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > [...] I wish eBay had a way to exclude particular sellers from > searches. They do. On the advanced search options page there is a way to limit searches either to include specific sellers only or exclude specific sellers. I use this to exclude "it equipment express" from all my ebay searches. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 03:13:42 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:13:42 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805141912.45609.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805141912.45609.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Hi chaps, This is a kind of amalgamated response to all who have responded; thanks! > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > There's no "u" in Osborne! :-) > Doh! Quite right.... I must have been watching too many Bourne films... > > You mean that connector that on most of the ones I've seen > have a sticker on the front saying not to remove it while the > power is on? > No such sticker on mine, so I can claim ignorance... > Good. What I'd do there is get one of those pencil-shaped > ink erasers and rub the contacts on both sides of the board > with that connector off of there, and then put it back on, > and leave it there. I've already tried all that, using fine wet&dry paper to bring the connections upto a sparkle, as well as giving the connectors inside the block a rub down as well. None has made the slightest bit of difference. The *only* time the video is steady is if the computer has crashed (i.e. because the ext. vid block has been removed & replaced). > If you still have some erratic > operation, you can take little bits of wire-wrap wire and > solder them to both sides, which I had to do in at least one case. I'd like to avoid that if I can, but if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do. > > unfortunately, it's crashed the computer... From this, I > deduce that > > it must be something in the mainboard electronics that's failed (a > > cap, maybe?), rather than something in the monitor unit. > > Monitor not getting sync would be a problem all right and if > your display problem went away that easily then maybe just > cleaning those contacts up will fix it right up. > > > Ok, so you're getting solid video or shaky video? I thought > you had said that wiggling the connector fixed that...? > As I say, it only goes away if you can put up with the computer being completely crashed (a soft-reset won't do the business, it has to be mains off/mains on to get it restarted; and then the video's loopy again. In other words: 1) Power up. Video shaky 2) Pull ext. vid block, video goes off 3) Replace block, video returns, stable, computer totally crashed. 4) Power off. Goto 1. > And does this unit have a screen-pac upgrade? If so, it'll > have an RCA jack in one corner of the front panel, you can > feed that to a composite-input monitor. If not we'll have to > work on what's there. No, it's standard unmodified. Although the Ext Vid block shows some signs of damage, like someone's tried to pry it open. I've no idea if that's causing the problem, although I should point out that this machine worked 3-4 years ago, and has "gone off" in storage. > > I'd have a look at the outputs of the power supply, start > out with the unit off and the power disconnected and _don't_ > touch that big power transistor or it _will_ bite! Fear not! I have a healthy regard for self preservation whilst working around mains-level circuitry... hv had 3 mains jolts in my life, the last one made my chest hurt in alarming fashion. That was when I was 13 years old... > Stay on > the output side and measure what's there. The +5, and + and > -12 should be within 5% of where they're supposed to be, > particularly the +5. Better yet would be to scope them and > see how much trash is there. You might have power supply > issues. Or you might have monitor issues, too. I can > recall reading about some monitor problems in those machines > or maybe Execs that turned out to be bad capacitors but I > can't recall which ones and I don't have those issues of > Foghorn handy any more. OK, will check that today (the levels), and if I find the 'scope probes, then I'll see if that still works (been 2-3 years since I used the 'scope, so that may have died also!) Tony Duell wrote: > Now, I don;t know this machine at all, but I am assuming the > mainboad contains the video and sync generation circuitry, > while the 'monitor' > contains the deflection circuits that lock to said sync > signals, the video amplifier, HV generator, etc. I believe that to be the case. I could take some close-ups of the monitor circuit if you like. There are a number of trimpots covering vertical hold/lin/synch, one for the horizontal centering, one each for bright/contrast. There is only one IC on the monitor circuit board. > Are the signals between the monitor and mainboard separate > syncs and video or a composite video signal? I'll have to do some tracing, but I think they are separate V & H. There are 10 wires going from the mainboard to the monitor, but not sure what signals they carry. > sync circuit. It's unlikely to be a digial problem. And this > is a horizontal problem (picture breaks up into sloping > likes)not a vertical problem (picture rolls), right? Hmm; I don't think it is wholly an analogue problem: I would expect the screen to break into horizontal slopes, as you say - and I've seen that on badly adjusted monitors in the past (I used to have an old Philips monitor which could be provoked into this with the front panel adjusters). What's happening is a corruption of the display, rather than an adjustment fault. For example, I just booted the machine again, and (ever so briefly) got an entire screenful of the letter "U". Then it went away, and the Osborne logo came back (and that *did* show some signs of an analogue issue - the horizontal slopes; but lots of them, not just a few). There's no way a horizontal hold failure could cause the screen to be filled with "U"s... > If you do have seaprate signals to the monitor, start by > 'scoping the horizontal sync signal while the monitor is > malfunctioning. Is it the right frequency and stable? > I'll look for it... the monitor circuit board is quite well labeled; but I'm not sure if the connectors themselves have individually labelled connections. > > Then, if there's a horizotnal frequency control on the > monitor PCB (it might be an inductor!), try carefully > tweaking it. The idea is to (a) see if the thing will jump > into lock, or if not, at least if you can get it to slope > both ways (that is, can the horizotnal oscillator run above > and elow the right frequency, if so, it's a good bet it'll > work _at_ the right frequency, and that the problem is in the > sync circuit). I couldn't find a h-freq trimpot; but will pull it all out again later today for a looksee. Question: How long should I leave the tube to "cool down" (unplugged) before I can rummage around it without fear of major electrocution? Rik wrote: > First step, is checking the boards visual for corosion and > bad solder joints (crystaline with a round marking in the > solder) good joints are shiny and curved, if you don't trust > one remove the old solder and resolder. I had a quick glance over the board, and didn't see anything really obvious; will check again properly. > When old electronics is stowed away in storages for a long > time, elcos are going to degrade and eventualy won't work at all. > The picture your showing indicates a fault in the horizontal > sync circuit of the video, pausible cause degraded elco's. That kind of figures - except for the fact it will go rock steady when the external video plug is pulled & replaced - but as mentioned, that freezes the whole machine solid (soft reset doesn't work, I have to cycle the power to restart it). I therefore think it must be something interfering with the h-sync generation while the machine is running which is causing the problem. Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu May 15 04:34:17 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 05:34:17 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N -- warning Message-ID: <8CA8485FAEA2CBB-BC4-2C07@webmail-nb21.sysops.aol.com> Be careful when using broker websites for semiconductors. In my search for some SMC UARTS, I've come across some sites that appear to have "open registration" for posting inventories. (i.e., anyone can supply an inventory list, and an e-mail address, and they'll show up on the vendor search.) (Recently digchip dot com ) After submitting a few RFQ's, I received replies from a number of different "companies" (read: individuals) that were highly suspect. For example: Generic e-mail addresses. References to what are supposed to be their "corporate" website, but are in fact unrelated. Payment terms "T/T" (wire transfer) or Western Union. I also received nearly identical quotes, from two presumeably different companies. While this is certainly possible, the verbage used was almost exact. As with any other transaction. . . . "buyer beware". As info. . . . T From ragooman at comcast.net Thu May 15 06:58:43 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:58:43 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805142024.52368.rtellason@verizon.net> <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> Message-ID: <482C2573.9030108@comcast.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Does anyone have the datasheet for an MM57109? How hard would it be to > make a replacement, either with an FPGA or a microcontroller or > something? > I've had no luck whatsoever in finding a datasheet for this part. I've been searching online for a long time too. I only have the programming info from old projects. But I too like to get the complete datasheet to check everything. I'm hoping the folks at Area51esg would have a lead on this. =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 15 08:40:10 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 06:40:10 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805142024.52368.rtellason@verizon.net> <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> Message-ID: <002301c8b691$323b2830$96b17890$@com> >Yes. I've found this with a lot of datasheet sites, where you end up >clicking through lots of pages of shite with "WE HELP YOU BUY BEST >PRICE!"-type messages, until you find that they want $5 for a PDF of a >datasheet. If you live in Silicon Valley, then Halted has an excellent library of old data books. Anybody is welcome to wander in and peruse them - it's really a great resource. Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 15 09:58:50 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:58:50 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs Message-ID: <482C4FAA.1060701@bitsavers.org> >until you find that they want $5 for a PDF of a >datasheet. I have three large databook collections (including most of what was at Haltek). I had offered them to CHM, but they've changed their mind about wanting them, and they want the storage space back, so I'm going to chop a subset and scan them at 600dpi over the next few months. The duplicates will probably go up on eBay in 20-book lots. The big problem will be their size and postprocessing them. I don't know if Jay is going to want something this big on bitsavers. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 15 10:07:58 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:07:58 -0700 Subject: Looking for a COMPATICARD II 8 BIT In-Reply-To: <200805150755.m4F7tNOh022610@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805150755.m4F7tNOh022610@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482BEF5E.27769.F86FD7C@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:46:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > off the cuff, if you're looking for one so you can > interface an 8" drive to a pc, you might want to look > at Dave Dunfield's info (don't ask me the url, just > google "Dave's old computers" and you'll find it > lickety-split). Unlikely every 8" drive will work, but > many will I presume. The CC II is a different beast from the CC IV and the generic PC-AT style controller, using a plain-Jane uPD 765A with a different convention for switching densities. It's basically the CCI without the external drive connector (same PCB, just no connector). 22DISK, Anadisk etc. support this controller during configuration. If the OP wants to contact me off-list, I think I may have a CCII that I'm willing to part with. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 15 10:18:52 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:18:52 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50805150720p7e2cd148j281bc1954b409f46@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50805150720p7e2cd148j281bc1954b409f46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2E369AA9-5649-4E5E-A75D-A53A322A4DA8@neurotica.com> On May 15, 2008, at 10:20 AM, Jeff Erwin wrote: > I purchased a used Tek 2445 scope which works well on both CH1 and > CH2. Both > 10x probes check out as well. I am working on getting an rs232 > interface > working, if I scope the TX signal from my terminal I get a clean > and synced > image on the scope on both channels. All is good. > > I am rebuiding an IMSAI 8080. The unit I have is working well, 48K > of RAM > all tested, I can enter programs through the front panel and run them. > Getting it to talk to my terminal program is the task at hand. > > Now comes the mystery. If I scope ANY bus line, chip lead on any > board, I > get a 60Hz sine wave that measures about 70 volts. Now, in my > logical head > I realize this can't be real, the IMSAI would not only not work but > would be > pouring smoke from every nook and cranny, bringing my wife running > with > claims of 'I told you so...'. > > So, what the hell? I have checked ground, I have checked the bus > lines, I > have checked the scope. I do have the active terminator card in > the last > slot and as I mentoned, the IMSAI works fine otherwise. > > Where am I picking up this 60hz sine wave? That sounds to me like a very nasty grounding problem. Be careful! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 15 10:30:27 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:30:27 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamfest Message-ID: <200805151130.27988.pat@computer-refuge.org> ... is tomorrow! Is anyone planning on going this year? I'll be there again, in spaces 3435/3436, and have a bunch of fun old electronic and computer crap (including a few nice, fun, big UNIX boxes). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu May 15 10:48:42 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:48:42 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: <7c7c96a50805150720p7e2cd148j281bc1954b409f46@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7c96a50805150720p7e2cd148j281bc1954b409f46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <482C5B5A.5040703@verizon.net> Jeff, case ground may not be circuit ground... make sure the the probe ground is actually circuit ground. Many machines made the case RF ground and seperate from teh DC ground using capactiors (true for altair, NS* horizon, CCS, Compupro that I have). Allison Jeff Erwin wrote: > I purchased a used Tek 2445 scope which works well on both CH1 and CH2. Both > 10x probes check out as well. I am working on getting an rs232 interface > working, if I scope the TX signal from my terminal I get a clean and synced > image on the scope on both channels. All is good. > > I am rebuiding an IMSAI 8080. The unit I have is working well, 48K of RAM > all tested, I can enter programs through the front panel and run them. > Getting it to talk to my terminal program is the task at hand. > > Now comes the mystery. If I scope ANY bus line, chip lead on any board, I > get a 60Hz sine wave that measures about 70 volts. Now, in my logical head > I realize this can't be real, the IMSAI would not only not work but would be > pouring smoke from every nook and cranny, bringing my wife running with > claims of 'I told you so...'. > > So, what the hell? I have checked ground, I have checked the bus lines, I > have checked the scope. I do have the active terminator card in the last > slot and as I mentoned, the IMSAI works fine otherwise. > > Where am I picking up this 60hz sine wave? > > Thanks in advance! I love the fact that there are others out there that > remember these great old machines and appreciate them for what they > represent! > > Jeff Erwin > > From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 11:22:39 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:22:39 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805141912.45609.rtellason@verizon.net> <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805151222.39625.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 04:13, Ade Vickers wrote: (Snip) > > If you still have some erratic operation, you can take little bits of > > wire-wrap wire and solder them to both sides, which I had to do in at > > least one case. > > I'd like to avoid that if I can, but if that's what it takes, that's what > I'll do. I did that for the case where the plug was missing altogether. Though it seems to me to be possible to solder the wire on one side of each of those contacts and still allow the plug to be used... I wonder if anybody ever sold anything that plugged in there? > > > unfortunately, it's crashed the computer... From this, I deduce that it > > > must be something in the mainboard electronics that's failed (a cap, > > > maybe?), rather than something in the monitor unit. > > > > Monitor not getting sync would be a problem all right and if > > your display problem went away that easily then maybe just > > cleaning those contacts up will fix it right up. > > > > Ok, so you're getting solid video or shaky video? I thought > > you had said that wiggling the connector fixed that...? > > As I say, it only goes away if you can put up with the computer being > completely crashed (a soft-reset won't do the business, it has to be mains > off/mains on to get it restarted; and then the video's loopy again. > > In other words: > 1) Power up. Video shaky > 2) Pull ext. vid block, video goes off > 3) Replace block, video returns, stable, computer totally crashed. > 4) Power off. Goto 1. Hmm. Might be the load on the power supply then, if it's marginal. > > And does this unit have a screen-pac upgrade? If so, it'll > > have an RCA jack in one corner of the front panel, you can > > feed that to a composite-input monitor. If not we'll have to > > work on what's there. > > No, it's standard unmodified. Although the Ext Vid block shows some signs > of damage, like someone's tried to pry it open. I've no idea if that's > causing the problem, although I should point out that this machine worked > 3-4 years ago, and has "gone off" in storage. Might be aging caps in there then. > > I'd have a look at the outputs of the power supply, start > > out with the unit off and the power disconnected and _don't_ > > touch that big power transistor or it _will_ bite! > > Fear not! I have a healthy regard for self preservation whilst working > around mains-level circuitry... hv had 3 mains jolts in my life, the last > one made my chest hurt in alarming fashion. That was when I was 13 years > old... Not fun, for sure... > > Stay on the output side and measure what's there. The +5, and + and > > -12 should be within 5% of where they're supposed to be, particularly the > > +5. Better yet would be to scope them and see how much trash is there. > > You might have power supply issues. Or you might have monitor issues, > > too. I can recall reading about some monitor problems in those machines > > or maybe Execs that turned out to be bad capacitors but I can't recall > > which ones and I don't have those issues of Foghorn handy any more. > > OK, will check that today (the levels), and if I find the 'scope probes, > then I'll see if that still works (been 2-3 years since I used the 'scope, > so that may have died also!) A scope is a nice thing to have when trying to troubleshoot this sort of thing, definitely. > Tony Duell wrote: > > Now, I don;t know this machine at all, but I am assuming the mainboad > > contains the video and sync generation circuitry, while the 'monitor' > > contains the deflection circuits that lock to said sync signals, the video > > amplifier, HV generator, etc. > > I believe that to be the case. I could take some close-ups of the monitor > circuit if you like. There are a number of trimpots covering vertical > hold/lin/synch, one for the horizontal centering, one each for > bright/contrast. There is only one IC on the monitor circuit board. > > > Are the signals between the monitor and mainboard separate > > syncs and video or a composite video signal? > > I'll have to do some tracing, but I think they are separate V & H. They are. > There are 10 wires going from the mainboard to the monitor, but not sure > what signals they carry. Horizontal and vertical sync, video, and power, as far as I can recall. > > sync circuit. It's unlikely to be a digial problem. And this > > is a horizontal problem (picture breaks up into sloping > > likes)not a vertical problem (picture rolls), right? > > Hmm; I don't think it is wholly an analogue problem: I would expect the > screen to break into horizontal slopes, as you say - and I've seen that on > badly adjusted monitors in the past (I used to have an old Philips monitor > which could be provoked into this with the front panel adjusters). > > What's happening is a corruption of the display, rather than an adjustment > fault. For example, I just booted the machine again, and (ever so briefly) > got an entire screenful of the letter "U". Then it went away, and the > Osborne logo came back (and that *did* show some signs of an analogue issue > - the horizontal slopes; but lots of them, not just a few). There's no way > a horizontal hold failure could cause the screen to be filled with "U"s... The odd characters I noticed in some of the pictorial info you linked to earlier suggests memory corruption, which would also be power-supply related. > > If you do have seaprate signals to the monitor, start by 'scoping the > > horizontal sync signal while the monitor is malfunctioning. Is it the > > right frequency and stable? > > I'll look for it... the monitor circuit board is quite well labeled; but > I'm not sure if the connectors themselves have individually labelled > connections. I'm not sure, but I believe that these monitors might have been made by Zenith. Or at least I'd heard that to be the case with the one in the Exec. If you see blobs of hot glue here and there holding down larger components that's a pretty good giveaway. > > Then, if there's a horizotnal frequency control on the monitor PCB (it > > might be an inductor!), try carefully tweaking it. The idea is to (a) see > > if the thing will jump into lock, or if not, at least if you can get it to > > slope both ways (that is, can the horizotnal oscillator run above > > and elow the right frequency, if so, it's a good bet it'll work _at_ the > > right frequency, and that the problem is in the sync circuit). > > I couldn't find a h-freq trimpot; but will pull it all out again later > today for a looksee. I'd worry about both the monitor and the computer getting good clean power first. Until you get sure about that I wouldn't mess with any adjustments. > Question: How long should I leave the tube to "cool down" (unplugged) > before I can rummage around it without fear of major electrocution? The HV wire in there is going to be pretty obviously going to one side of the tube, as opposed to the rest of the connections which will go to the tube's base (small end of the "funnel") or the deflection yoke. Just staying away from that should be good enough. > Rik wrote: > > First step, is checking the boards visual for corosion and > > bad solder joints (crystaline with a round marking in the > > solder) good joints are shiny and curved, if you don't trust > > one remove the old solder and resolder. > > I had a quick glance over the board, and didn't see anything really > obvious; will check again properly. A strong light helps with that but I haven't found too much in the way of bad soldering in this equipment. > > When old electronics is stowed away in storages for a long > > time, elcos are going to degrade and eventualy won't work at all. > > The picture your showing indicates a fault in the horizontal > > sync circuit of the video, pausible cause degraded elco's. > > That kind of figures - except for the fact it will go rock steady when the > external video plug is pulled & replaced - but as mentioned, that freezes > the whole machine solid (soft reset doesn't work, I have to cycle the power > to restart it). I therefore think it must be something interfering with the > h-sync generation while the machine is running which is causing the > problem. That's why I suspect the power supply first. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 15 11:29:31 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:29:31 -0600 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 May 2008 07:58:50 -0700. <482C4FAA.1060701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <482C4FAA.1060701 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The big problem will be their size and postprocessing them. I don't > know if Jay is going to want something this big on bitsavers. This is the kind of thing that we, as list subscribers, can keep alive and available through bittorrent. We could also do a DVD-R copy tree. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 11:40:28 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:40:28 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805151222.39625.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><200805141912.45609.rtellason@verizon.net><00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805151222.39625.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > A scope is a nice thing to have when trying to troubleshoot > this sort of thing, definitely. > It's going to have to be the 'scope... I failed to turn the multimeter off properly last time I used it, and now the battery is flat. Doh! Or, of course, I could bodge my universal power supply into powering the multimeter...... (don't dare suggest buying a battery! ;)) Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 15 12:14:53 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:14:53 -0500 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080515121248.0609d030@mail.threedee.com> At 11:29 AM 5/15/2008, Richard wrote: >This is the kind of thing that we, as list subscribers, can keep alive >and available through bittorrent. We could also do a DVD-R copy tree. Terabyte Seagates dropped below $200 at my supplier this month. Put one in a $25 external case and pass it around in mail. "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." - John From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 15 12:30:36 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:30:36 -0500 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080515121248.0609d030@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080515121248.0609d030@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: Thats one of my favorite quotes john! point me to the terrabyte drives, I want to set up a rack of them in a raid array Randy > Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:14:53 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: Re: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs > > At 11:29 AM 5/15/2008, Richard wrote: > >This is the kind of thing that we, as list subscribers, can keep alive > >and available through bittorrent. We could also do a DVD-R copy tree. > > Terabyte Seagates dropped below $200 at my supplier this month. > Put one in a $25 external case and pass it around in mail. > > "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes > hurtling down the highway." > > - John > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 15 12:39:03 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:39:03 -0600 Subject: bandwidth In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080515121248.0609d030@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <482C7537.6060704@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy Dawson wrote: > Thats one of my favorite quotes john! > point me to the terrabyte drives, I want to set up a rack of them in a raid array > Randy > > But what about the station wagon heading your way. So how many tapes would fit in, and just what is the capacity. PS: Also how may on this list still use mag tape with the vintage equipment? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 15 12:42:08 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:42:08 -0400 Subject: bandwidth In-Reply-To: <482C7537.6060704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080515121248.0609d030@mail.threedee.com> <482C7537.6060704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On May 15, 2008, at 1:39 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > PS: Also how may on this list still use mag tape > with the vintage equipment? I do. And I'm still looking for a Pertec-interfaced drive like a Cipher F880, by the way, if anyone has one available for trade. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 15 12:47:07 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:47:07 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 15, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Jeff Erwin wrote: > Case solved (I think). It seems to matter where I ground the > probe. I > pulled all of the boards out of the system, no change. I then > grounded the > probe to the middle finger of the voltage regulator on the board > and the > sine wave went away. The chassis may not be at digital ground. Also watch out for the middle lead of three-terminal (78xx/79xx) voltage regulators...it's not unheard of to bring them up above ground a bit with a voltage divider to make them operate at different voltages. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 15 12:51:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:51:37 -0700 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: <200805151700.m4FH0Nnm027970@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805151700.m4FH0Nnm027970@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482C15B9.14527.101CD02B@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2008 at 12:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:48:42 -0400 > From: Allison > case ground may not be circuit ground... make sure the the probe ground > is actually circuit ground. > > Many machines made the case RF ground and seperate from teh DC ground > using capactiors (true for altair, NS* horizon, CCS, Compupro that I > have). That's my guess also. That 70v 60Hz signal probably doesn't represent anything more than stray AC pickup by the case. Find the real signal ground. A couple of weeks ago, I was working on a friend's old Roland analog synthesizer and discovered that there were *two* grounds on the thing- -digital and analog. And they weren't the same. Neither one corresponded to case ground or even the sleeve on the audio output jacks. Fortunately, both grounds had labeled TPs on the PCBs. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 15 12:52:30 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <482C4FAA.1060701@bitsavers.org> References: <482C4FAA.1060701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200805151752.NAA01966@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The big problem will be their size and postprocessing them. I don't > know if Jay is going to want something this big on bitsavers. How big are we talking? I have a machine with space for another PATA drive; it's not on an especially fast line, but if that doesn't bother people, I certainly wouldn't mind dropping a big disk on it and hosting some stuff - I think PATA disks are still available. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 13:07:07 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:07:07 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805151407.07850.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 13:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 15, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Jeff Erwin wrote: > > Case solved (I think). It seems to matter where I ground the > > probe. I > > pulled all of the boards out of the system, no change. I then > > grounded the > > probe to the middle finger of the voltage regulator on the board > > and the > > sine wave went away. > > The chassis may not be at digital ground. > > Also watch out for the middle lead of three-terminal (78xx/79xx) > voltage regulators...it's not unheard of to bring them up above > ground a bit with a voltage divider to make them operate at different > voltages. The _middle_ lead is not ground on the 79xx parts! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu May 15 13:15:10 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:15:10 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: <482C15B9.14527.101CD02B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805151700.m4FH0Nnm027970@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482C15B9.14527.101CD02B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0805151115u4d59079nc9f34857898328fd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A couple of weeks ago, I was working on a friend's old Roland analog > synthesizer and discovered that there were *two* grounds on the thing- > -digital and analog. And they weren't the same. Neither one > corresponded to case ground or even the sleeve on the audio output > jacks. Fortunately, both grounds had labeled TPs on the PCBs. Good and common design on synths. Ground loops can be a killer - figuratively, not literally, introducing hard-to-remove hum on lines. First time I saw a "ground lift" I was shocked (again, not literally) by the concept, but found it indispensable for many live setups. Was the connector on the audio a 3-conductor 1/4 inch? The analog ground might be on the ring, not the sleeve. You plug in a mono 1/4 plug, it'll ground the sleeve, and a "stereo" (tip-ring-sleeve) plug is usually used for balanced signals - the analog ground becoming the -ve line. The sleeve can connect to the cable shield on either side in that case, and sometimes this is a must - it's useful to have one or two balanced 1/4 phono cables with sleeve to shield on only one end in your box o' cables! Ideally (but expensive) there should be and isolating transformer on the output. And 3-pin XLR. Joe. From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu May 15 13:37:48 2008 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (david_comley at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 18:37:48 +0000 Subject: Dayton Hamfest In-Reply-To: <200805151130.27988.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200805151130.27988.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1058851167-1210876402-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-55717155-@bxe114.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I'll be there again this year. I'll stop by. -Dave Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:30:27 To:The Rescue List , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Dayton Hamfest .. is tomorrow! Is anyone planning on going this year? I'll be there again, in spaces 3435/3436, and have a bunch of fun old electronic and computer crap (including a few nice, fun, big UNIX boxes). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 13:38:40 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 19:38:40 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><200805141912.45609.rtellason@verizon.net><00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><200805151222.39625.rtellason@verizon.net> <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <01b001c8b6ba$e59cf420$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Hmmm.... OK, stranger & stranger. The power supply has 3 identical "plugs" (for want of a better word) coming off the board, each with 4 pins. The voltage on each corresponding pin of each plug is identical; so I'm assuming they're there to power other optional (and presumably never built) kit. Anyhoo... Without my voltmeter, I've done my best to calibrate the 'scope (which I've never used in anger before) to a sensible scale. From this scale I have concluded that, with respect to GND: Pin 1 has approx -13.5v - but is not connected to anything Pin 2 has approx +12.0v Pin 3 has approx - 0.1v (and is a bit rough, but only on the millivolt scale) Pin 4 has approx + 4.5v (higher, actually, somewhere between 4.5v and 5.0v All three signals are pretty smooth, I can't see any rectification noise on them until I get into the millivolt scales - even as far down as I can adjust the 'scope. The crystal is working properly :) I've not checked the voltages going into the monitor yet - I need to do some additional dissasembly so I can get the probe in, and it's knocking off time... However, the PSU looks good, I'd say. The display is still fritzed :( Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu May 15 13:40:00 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <823250.66601.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Richard wrote: Hi, While looking at the service manual for the Tektronix 4010/4010-1 and 4014/4014-1 terminals, I came up with an idea for creating a screen capture card for them using the principles from the Tektronix 4631 hard copy unit for the terminals. This would give you the ability to capture a pixel image from the Tektronix terminal's display tube. How many people would be interested in such a project? -- I would. I only have one roll of paper left for the 4631. Bob From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 15 14:13:38 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:13:38 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 May 2008 11:40:00 -0700. <823250.66601.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <823250.66601.qm at web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Richard wrote: Hi, > >> How many people would be interested in such a project? > > I would. I only have one roll of paper left for the 4631. I have a 4631 with a roll of paper in it, but I've never tried to print on it, assuming that the paper had long since past its shelf life. Did you manage to get a useful print from your 4631? If so, I may try to just hook mine up for yucks and see what happens. I just assumed that the paper wouldn't be "active" after 20 years... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 14:19:10 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:19:10 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <01b001c8b6ba$e59cf420$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <01b001c8b6ba$e59cf420$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805151519.10851.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 14:38, Ade Vickers wrote: > Hmmm.... > > OK, stranger & stranger. > > The power supply has 3 identical "plugs" (for want of a better word) coming > off the board, each with 4 pins. The voltage on each corresponding pin of > each plug is identical; so I'm assuming they're there to power other > optional (and presumably never built) kit. Anyhoo... > > Without my voltmeter, I've done my best to calibrate the 'scope (which I've > never used in anger before) to a sensible scale. From this scale I have > concluded that, with respect to GND: > > Pin 1 has approx -13.5v - but is not connected to anything That's the nominal -12V, and it's used in the RS232 port and nowhere else that I can recall. > Pin 2 has approx +12.0v That's the nominal +12, and is used in the RS232 port and the disk drives. > Pin 3 has approx - 0.1v (and is a bit rough, but only on the millivolt > scale) Measured with respect to where? That's probably your ground pin. > Pin 4 has approx + 4.5v (higher, actually, somewhere between 4.5v and 5.0v That should be +5 give or take a quarter volt and no more, if it goes down to as low as 4.5V you have a bit of a problem there, which could account for some of the erratic behavior you're seieng. > All three signals are pretty smooth, I can't see any rectification noise on > them until I get into the millivolt scales - even as far down as I can > adjust the 'scope. That's good to know. > The crystal is working properly :) > > I've not checked the voltages going into the monitor yet - I need to do > some additional dissasembly so I can get the probe in, and it's knocking > off time... > > However, the PSU looks good, I'd say. Except for that one reading that's somewhat rather lower than I'd like to see. > The display is still fritzed :( No surprise there. :-) Is there a trimpot adjustment on that power supply board? I used to work on those machines (we had "the shop" in a building that had an Osborne dealer in it so I saw more of those than any other CP/M boxes) but it's been rather a while since I saw one. I just looked in one set of files and can't seem to find any schematics or other stuff, though I know I have one somewhere, so I guess I'm working from memory here. You might locate the biggest caps on that power supply board (they'll have the highest voltage rating and be on the primary side of things, probably two of them) and give some consideration to replacing those. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu May 15 14:20:07 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <515507.71579.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Richard wrote: I have a 4631 with a roll of paper in it, but I've never tried to print on it, assuming that the paper had long since past its shelf life. Did you manage to get a useful print from your 4631? If so, I may try to just hook mine up for yucks and see what happens. I just assumed that the paper wouldn't be "active" after 20 years... Mine gives a usable image. There's not much contrast, but it's better than nothing. Capturing the image and cleaning it up in photoshop would be worthwhile. I believe my paper is from 1981. Bob From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 15 14:25:43 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:25:43 -0500 Subject: Dayton Hamfest In-Reply-To: <200805151130.27988.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200805151130.27988.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730805151225y93c96c2g6e04c2661d78777a@mail.gmail.com> Argh, wish I was going this time but work says otherwise. Sure, hamfests are a shadow of what they used to be, but Dayton is still fun for the sheer scale of it. Hope the weather and the shopping gods treat you right. On 5/15/08, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > ... is tomorrow! > > Is anyone planning on going this year? > > I'll be there again, in spaces 3435/3436, and have a bunch of fun old > electronic and computer crap (including a few nice, fun, big UNIX > boxes). > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 15 14:31:29 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:31:29 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs Message-ID: <01C8B6A0.D64492E0@mandr71> ---------Original Message: From: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Does anyone have the datasheet for an MM57109? How hard would it be to > make a replacement, either with an FPGA or a microcontroller or > something? > I've had no luck whatsoever in finding a datasheet for this part. I've been searching online for a long time too. I only have the programming info from old projects. But I too like to get the complete datasheet to check everything. I'm hoping the folks at Area51esg would have a lead on this. =Dan ---------Reply: Well, considering the MM57109 is a microprocessor, it's a little more than just a data_sheet_ unless you only want the pinout & logic diagram. It's one of the COPS family and should be in any NSC MOS databook of the time; if you can't find it and Area51esg can't supply it, contact me off-list and I'll try to find time to scan it, abt. 24 pages. mike From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 14:32:40 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:32:40 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805151519.10851.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><01b001c8b6ba$e59cf420$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805151519.10851.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <01c301c8b6c2$709b8490$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I have concluded that, with respect to GND: > > > > Pin 1 has approx -13.5v - but is not connected to anything > > That's the nominal -12V, and it's used in the RS232 port and > nowhere else that I can recall. OK. I'm not sure how it gets there, as there is no connection in the plug to take it (and there's only the single 3-wire plug leaving the PSU board... > > > Pin 2 has approx +12.0v > > That's the nominal +12, and is used in the RS232 port and > the disk drives. Yep, figured that one. > > > Pin 3 has approx - 0.1v (and is a bit rough, but only on > the millivolt > > scale) > > Measured with respect to where? That's probably your ground pin. Measured with respect to Earth (green wire, goes everywhere including to the mainboard). As far as I can tell, this acts as GND for the whole machine? > > > Pin 4 has approx + 4.5v (higher, actually, somewhere > between 4.5v and > > 5.0v > > That should be +5 give or take a quarter volt and no more, > if it goes down to as low as 4.5V you have a bit of a problem > there, which could account for some of the erratic behavior > you're seieng. Well..... as my multimeter is flat & I don't have a signal generator, I calibrated the 'scope using a 1.5v AA battery. Thus, accuracy is far from guaranteed... As I say, it IS a little higher than 4.5v - it may be 4.75, but I couldn't be sure of that. I will find a new battery for the multimeter tonight... > Is there a trimpot adjustment on that power supply board? Nope, nothing adjustable at all. > I > used to work on those machines (we had "the shop" in a > building that had an Osborne dealer in it so I saw more of > those than any other CP/M boxes) but it's been rather a while > since I saw one. I just looked in one set of files and can't > seem to find any schematics or other stuff, though I know I > have one somewhere, so I guess I'm working from memory here. Your assistance is much appreciated. I've still got to try Tony's suggestion of checking out the H-sync signal, but I need to find it first... > You might locate the biggest caps on that power supply board > (they'll have the highest voltage rating and be on the > primary side of things, probably two of > them) and give some consideration to replacing those. I shall consider it - is there any (non-destructive: I know you can pump 240vac into it, then when the magic smoke escapes conclude it's broken :)) way to test an electrolytic cap? Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 15 14:50:50 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> References: <200805140219.m4E2Jo019291@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <482B77A4.70003@comcast.net> <52984.64.62.206.10.1210810046.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200805142024.52368.rtellason@verizon.net> <1210834768.8126.7.camel@elric> Message-ID: <44769.64.62.206.10.1210881050.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Does anyone have the datasheet for an MM57109? If memory serves, the full datasheet is in the 1980 National Semiconductor MOS Databook. > How hard would it be to make a replacement, either with an FPGA or a > microcontroller or something? It depends. Do you want it to be exactly as slow and inaccurate as the real thing? That might be hard. The original *was* a microcontroller, albeit a very slow 4-bit PMOS microcontroller, so obviously there's an existence proof that it can be done with a microcontroller. Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 14:50:55 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:50:55 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <01c301c8b6c2$709b8490$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805151519.10851.rtellason@verizon.net> <01c301c8b6c2$709b8490$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805151550.55374.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 15:32, Ade Vickers wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > I have concluded that, with respect to GND: > > > > > > Pin 1 has approx -13.5v - but is not connected to anything > > > > That's the nominal -12V, and it's used in the RS232 port and > > nowhere else that I can recall. > > OK. I'm not sure how it gets there, as there is no connection in the plug > to take it (and there's only the single 3-wire plug leaving the PSU > board... Hm, could be I'm mis-remembering slightly here. Or it could be used in later stuff. I recall seeing only one or two of the tan case units, most of them were the later ones. > > > Pin 2 has approx +12.0v > > > > That's the nominal +12, and is used in the RS232 port and > > the disk drives. > > Yep, figured that one. > > > > Pin 3 has approx - 0.1v (and is a bit rough, but only on > > > the millivolt scale) > > > > Measured with respect to where? That's probably your ground pin. > > Measured with respect to Earth (green wire, goes everywhere including to > the mainboard). As far as I can tell, this acts as GND for the whole > machine? Shielding more than anything else, I'd guess. > > > Pin 4 has approx + 4.5v (higher, actually, somewhere > > > between 4.5v and 5.0v > > > > That should be +5 give or take a quarter volt and no more, > > if it goes down to as low as 4.5V you have a bit of a problem > > there, which could account for some of the erratic behavior > > you're seieng. > > Well..... as my multimeter is flat & I don't have a signal generator, I > calibrated the 'scope using a 1.5v AA battery. Thus, accuracy is far from > guaranteed... Even still, it shouldn't be fluctuating either. > As I say, it IS a little higher than 4.5v - it may be 4.75, but I couldn't > be sure of that. I will find a new battery for the multimeter tonight... Yeah, I'd see where that ends up because it being off could affect everything like we're seeing here. > > Is there a trimpot adjustment on that power supply board? > > Nope, nothing adjustable at all. Hm. Hopefully I'll find my Osborne tech docs one of these days. > > I used to work on those machines (we had "the shop" in a building that had > > an Osborne dealer in it so I saw more of those than any other CP/M boxes) > > but it's been rather a while since I saw one. I just looked in one set of > > files and can't seem to find any schematics or other stuff, though I know > > I have one somewhere, so I guess I'm working from memory here. > > Your assistance is much appreciated. I've still got to try Tony's suggestion > of checking out the H-sync signal, but I need to find it first... It'll be on that connector on the front, and prety obvious which one it is because of the repetition rate, as opposed to the much lower rate for the vertical sync, and the much erratic nature of the video. And if it's *way* off in frequency or changes a lot or has a lot of jitter than we're probably looking at the power supply not being right. > > You might locate the biggest caps on that power supply board > > (they'll have the highest voltage rating and be on the primary side of > > things, probably two of them) and give some consideration to replacing > > those. > > I shall consider it - is there any (non-destructive: I know you can pump > 240vac into it, then when the magic smoke escapes conclude it's broken :)) > way to test an electrolytic cap? With some equipment, yeah. The least I'd want is to use an isolation transformer to plug the computer into and then scope across the main filter caps and see what you get, but I wouldn't care to mess around in there without an isolation transformer. If they're bulgy on top they're bad. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 15 14:54:34 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45273.64.62.206.10.1210881274.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > This is the kind of thing that we, as list subscribers, can keep alive > and available through bittorrent. We could also do a DVD-R copy tree. Bittorrent doesn't help at all for things that only a few (less than about five) people are trying to download at the same time. FTP is generally *more* efficient than bittorrent for that. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 15 15:25:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:25:32 -0700 Subject: Leakproof cells, was: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805151700.m4FH0Nnm027970@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805151700.m4FH0Nnm027970@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482C39CC.26491.10A9BA62@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:40:28 +0100 > From: "Ade Vickers" > Or, of course, I could bodge my universal power supply into powering the > multimeter...... (don't dare suggest buying a battery! ;)) This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask the list. I've got some old gear that take single D- or C-sized carbon-zinc cells, usually as some sort of minimal-current supply. For example, my VTVM uses one for its resistance function. (Sometimes a high- impedance meter with a real needle is hard to beat). I don't keep cells in this old stuff because I use it only occasionally. Is there such a thing as a long-life leakproof battery that I can use? Silver-zinc perhaps? Thanks, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 15 15:27:14 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:27:14 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 May 2008 12:20:07 -0700. <515507.71579.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <515507.71579.qm at web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Mine gives a usable image. There's not much contrast, but > it's better than nothing. Capturing the image and cleaning it > up in photoshop would be worthwhile. I believe my paper is > from 1981. OK, since you're interested, I'll go into a little more detail of what I was thinking... In the 4010/4014 terminals (and probably more, but I've only read the service manuals for those two) there is a little bit of additional circuitry that is installed into the terminal to support the printer. This is the "-1" designation, i.e. 4010 is just the terminal without printer circuitry and 4010-1 is the terminal with the printer support circuitry. This terminal circuitry was only available from the factory and not as a user-installable option AFAIK. As I understand it the 4631 hardcopy unit is entirely an analog circuitry affair. It generates three input signals to the terminal and the printer support circuitry in the terminal generates a response signal. The hard copy unit generates a "slow ramp" that scans the tube from top to bottom and a "fast ramp" that scans from left to right many times within the slow ramp. This in effect runs a scanning beam in a raster type pattern across the type. The third signal generated by the hard copy unit is a sense signal that is sent to the terminal to read out the tube at the location indicated by the current values of the slow and fast ramps. The terminal sends a response to the hard copy unit, which it uses to turn into an image on a drum with the paper. My idea was to either a) cannibalize the ramp generation circuitry out of the 4631 and interface that to a microcontroller that digitized the response from the terminal, or b) use the ramp generation circuitry diagrams for the 4631 to create an equivalent modern circuit driven by the microcontroller which digitzed the return value from the terminal. The microcontroller would probably use USB to attach to a host or something like that. So you would press your hard copy switch on the terminal and the microcontroller would scan through the tube by generating the fast and slow ramps, digitize the responses and turn this into a bitmap that would be available to the host. Presto! Screen capture from your 4010-1/4014-1. A followon idea would be to create the necessary printer support circuitry in the terminal using the service manual schematics so that people could "upgrade" their 4010 to a 4010-1. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 15 15:29:04 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:29:04 -0600 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 May 2008 12:54:34 -0700. <45273.64.62.206.10.1210881274.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <45273.64.62.206.10.1210881274.squirrel at ruckus.brouhaha.com>, "Eric Smith" writes: > Richard wrote: > > This is the kind of thing that we, as list subscribers, can keep alive > > and available through bittorrent. We could also do a DVD-R copy tree. > > Bittorrent doesn't help at all for things that only a few (less than > about five) people are trying to download at the same time. FTP is > generally *more* efficient than bittorrent for that. ...but its easier to share a file via bittorrent than it is to share a file via FTP on a consumer PC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 15 15:42:03 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43268.64.62.206.10.1210884123.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > ...but its easier to share a file via bittorrent than it is to share a > file via FTP on a consumer PC. Not really. If you're trying to make it widely available, you need a tracker at a static IP address, and setting that up isn't really easier than setting up an FTP server. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 15 16:03:17 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:03:17 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <43268.64.62.206.10.1210884123.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <43268.64.62.206.10.1210884123.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On May 15, 2008, you wrote: > ...but its easier to share a file via bittorrent than it is to share a > file via FTP on a consumer PC. It is? Oh, you must still be running Windows. :-/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu May 15 17:01:38 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <711798.58590.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Richard wrote: OK, since you're interested, I'll go into a little more detail of what I was thinking... Snipped: As I understand it the 4631 hardcopy unit is entirely an analog circuitry affair. It generates three input signals to the terminal and the printer support circuitry in the terminal generates a response signal. The hard copy unit generates a "slow ramp" that scans the tube from top to bottom and a "fast ramp" that scans from left to right many times within the slow ramp. This in effect runs a scanning beam in a raster type pattern across the type. The third signal generated by the hard copy unit is a sense signal that is sent to the terminal to read out the tube at the location indicated by the current values of the slow and fast ramps. The terminal sends a response to the hard copy unit, which it uses to turn into an image on a drum with the paper. That is how it appears to work. When printing, you can clearly see the scan lines at work. They are in write-through mode, that is they are not stored. Might be possible to just use a couple of 12 bit DAC's and software scan. I once thought of using a sound card to generate ramps and digitize the tube's analog output signal. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 17:08:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:08:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 15, 8 09:13:42 am Message-ID: > I'll have to do some tracing, but I think they are separate V & H. There are > 10 wires going from the mainboard to the monitor, but not sure what signals > they carry. There is a de-facto 'standard' for 10 pin monitors (using a 0/156" pitch edge connector or header plug). The DEC VT100 monitor PCB is one such, if you need more details... > > > sync circuit. It's unlikely to be a digial problem. And this > > is a horizontal problem (picture breaks up into sloping > > likes)not a vertical problem (picture rolls), right? > > Hmm; I don't think it is wholly an analogue problem: I would expect the > screen to break into horizontal slopes, as you say - and I've seen that on > badly adjusted monitors in the past (I used to have an old Philips monitor > which could be provoked into this with the front panel adjusters). > > What's happening is a corruption of the display, rather than an adjustment A more accurate fault description would be helpful... > fault. For example, I just booted the machine again, and (ever so briefly) > got an entire screenful of the letter "U". Then it went away, and the > Osborne logo came back (and that *did* show some signs of an analogue issue > - the horizontal slopes; but lots of them, not just a few). There's no way a > horizontal hold failure could cause the screen to be filled with "U"s... Correct. Taht implies a digital prolem, and not necessarily in the video circuitry.... Does this machine use a 6845 or similar for hre video timing chain? If so, mis-programming that will cause apparent sync problems. So the fault could bever well be proscessor, ROM, or bus related. That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses when you have the lines and when you have a good display (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being mis-configured by software_ > > > If you do have seaprate signals to the monitor, start by > > 'scoping the horizontal sync signal while the monitor is > > malfunctioning. Is it the right frequency and stable? > > > > I'll look for it... the monitor circuit board is quite well labeled; but I'm > not sure if the connectors themselves have individually labelled > connections. Sony were sometimes kind enough to label connector pins, supply lines, CRT pinouts, etc in the slikscreen, few other manufacturers were. If it is a standard pinout, then the connections are 1 Ground 2 One end of the contrast control 3 t'other end of the contrast control 4 Slider of the contrast control 5 ground 6 Hsync 7 +12V power input 8 video input 9 Vsync 10 ground > Question: How long should I leave the tube to "cool down" (unplugged) before > I can rummage around it without fear of major electrocution? Depends on what you're working on, and the design of the monitor. The PCB-mounted capacitors will normally discharge fairly fast (minute at most), so there'll be no masty votlages on PCB tracks or CRT _pins_ after that. The EHT, stored in the 'capacitor' of the CRT glass can stay for days, but (a) it'll be discharrged by the beam current in any normal monitor (so this is really only a concern if the screen is totally blank), () the only way you'll get in contact with it is if you remove the anonde connector and (c) good monitors have a bleeder resistor, often inside the flyback trasnformer. If I am going to be removing the EHT connector, I check the residual voltage with an EHT voltmeter (which also happens to discharge it :-)). Otherwise, I don't worry. So far I've never had a shock doing that. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu May 15 17:27:40 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:27:40 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article <45273.64.62.206.10.1210881274.squirrel at ruckus.brouhaha.com>, > "Eric Smith" writes: > >> Richard wrote: >>> This is the kind of thing that we, as list subscribers, can keep alive >>> and available through bittorrent. We could also do a DVD-R copy tree. >> Bittorrent doesn't help at all for things that only a few (less than >> about five) people are trying to download at the same time. FTP is >> generally *more* efficient than bittorrent for that. > > ...but its easier to share a file via bittorrent than it is to share a > file via FTP on a consumer PC. Say WHAT????? No. It *might* be easier for my 14-year-old nephew, but one would sort of assume that any member of this list knows his/her way around command-line FTP. AFAIK, an FTP client is still provided with all of the major operating systems, and bittorrent clients with none. I'm not even going to start with the security issues. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 17:15:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:15:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 15, 8 05:40:28 pm Message-ID: > It's going to have to be the 'scope... I failed to turn the multimeter off > properly last time I used it, and now the battery is flat. Doh! Quite a few of my multimeters only need a battery for the resistance ranges... They're analogue, of course. And a few others run off the mains.... > Or, of course, I could bodge my universal power supply into powering the Be careful doing that if one side of the universal PSU is grounded. Quite a few simple DMM circutis do not have the -ve side of the battery connected to the -ve input terminal. > multimeter...... (don't dare suggest buying a battery! ;)) Unless your meter takes some obscure battery, I am suprised you don't have them in stock. ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 17:18:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:18:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: <200805151407.07850.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at May 15, 8 02:07:07 pm Message-ID: > > Also watch out for the middle lead of three-terminal (78xx/79xx) > > voltage regulators...it's not unheard of to bring them up above > > ground a bit with a voltage divider to make them operate at different > > voltages. > > The _middle_ lead is not ground on the 79xx parts! The 'rule' I remember, at least for TO92 and TO220 packaged 78xx/79xx is that the middle pin is the most -ve. Therefore it's common on the +ve ones (78xx) and input o nthe -ve (79xx) series. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 15 17:34:37 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 18:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem Message-ID: <1265.96.243.162.27.1210890877.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 2:07 pm, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> > Case solved (I think). It seems to matter where I ground the >> > probe. I >> > pulled all of the boards out of the system, no change. I then >> > grounded the >> > probe to the middle finger of the voltage regulator on the board >> > and the >> > sine wave went away. >> >> The chassis may not be at digital ground. >> >> Also watch out for the middle lead of three-terminal (78xx/79xx) >> voltage regulators...it's not unheard of to bring them up above >> ground a bit with a voltage divider to make them operate at different >> voltages. > > The _middle_ lead is not ground on the 79xx parts! You're correct of course; I should've said "ground" lead. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 15 17:59:23 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 16:59:23 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 May 2008 15:01:38 -0700. <711798.58590.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <711798.58590.qm at web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: >[...] I once thought of using a sound card to generate ramps and > digitize the tube's analog output signal. Ooooh... sneaky! I like that idea. I doubt the voltage levels are compatible, but I haven't looked at the schematics closely enough to know for sure. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 18:40:02 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 00:40:02 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 15, 8 05:40:28 pm Message-ID: <021e01c8b6e4$ff38f260$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > It's going to have to be the 'scope... I failed to turn the > multimeter > > off properly last time I used it, and now the battery is flat. Doh! > > Quite a few of my multimeters only need a battery for the > resistance ranges... They're analogue, of course. Mmm, I have an analogue MM somewhere - can't remember where, though, and IIRC the selector switch had become almost unusably jammed - requiring an unfeasible amount of force to turn it. I've got it *somewhere*, goodness knows where. > > Unless your meter takes some obscure battery, I am suprised > you don't have them in stock. ... 9v PP3. Haven't bought one of those in years. *smacks head* I will have some for my Sinclair Cambridge Programmables... if I can remember where I put them. In my defence, I *do* have a 4000sqft warehouse to search, and it's not in any particular order... Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 18:48:23 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 00:48:23 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805151550.55374.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><200805151519.10851.rtellason@verizon.net><01c301c8b6c2$709b8490$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805151550.55374.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <021f01c8b6e6$29a7b850$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote : > Hm, could be I'm mis-remembering slightly here. Or it could > be used in later stuff. I recall seeing only one or two of > the tan case units, most of them were the later ones. I sold my non-tan cased Ozzie, on the basis it wasn't rare enough for my liking! Of course, that one worked perfectly... > > Measured with respect to Earth (green wire, goes everywhere > including > > to the mainboard). As far as I can tell, this acts as GND for the > > whole machine? > > Shielding more than anything else, I'd guess. OK, that would make sense. In which case, I'd expect the differential between pins 3 & 4 to be approx 5v, but will confirm tomorrow. > > Even still, it shouldn't be fluctuating either. > My mistake - there was no fluctuation, except in the optics of the sensor (me & my eyes). The voltage output was a perfectly flat line (except when the 'scope sensitivity was turned to 20mv/cm, at which point I could just about see some rectification effects - but getting the 'scope to trigger on the peaks was really hard work; it's a pretty flat line. The signal on Pin 3 (-0.1v I guessed at) was a little noiser, but seemed to be random noise. Having said that, I didn't "zoom in" on it so much. If, as you imply, Pin 3 is GND and Pin 4 is +5v; then the difference between those two is much closer to 5v than between Pin 4 & Earth. > > > > Your assistance is much appreciated. I've still got to try Tony's > > suggestion of checking out the H-sync signal, but I need to > find it first... > > It'll be on that connector on the front, and prety obvious > which one it is because of the repetition rate, as opposed > to the much lower rate for the vertical sync, and the much > erratic nature of the video. And if it's *way* off in > frequency or changes a lot or has a lot of jitter than we're > probably looking at the power supply not being right. Should I probe these with reference to the GND (Earth/shield) or the 0v line (pin 3, as above)? > > I shall consider it - is there any (non-destructive: I know you can > > pump 240vac into it, then when the magic smoke escapes > conclude it's > > broken :)) way to test an electrolytic cap? > > With some equipment, yeah. The least I'd want is to use an > isolation transformer to plug the computer into and then > scope across the main filter caps and see what you get, but > I wouldn't care to mess around in there without an isolation > transformer. > > If they're bulgy on top they're bad. They look brand new TBH. Not even any dust on them (probably because the PSU is mounted component-side-down in the case). That, and the case itself is pretty tightly sealed when the unit is assembled & closed up. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 15 18:48:23 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 00:48:23 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 15, 8 09:13:42 am Message-ID: <022001c8b6e6$29d04ef0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Hmm; I don't think it is wholly an analogue problem: I would expect > > the screen to break into horizontal slopes, as you say - > and I've seen > > that on badly adjusted monitors in the past (I used to have an old > > Philips monitor which could be provoked into this with the > front panel adjusters). > > > > What's happening is a corruption of the display, rather than an > > adjustment > > > A more accurate fault description would be helpful... Well, the video I linked to is about the best description I could think of... When the screen is showing static information, and the disk(s) are not running, then the display kind of looks like it's got a h-synch problem. Or, try this: It looks like there's a strong right-to-left motion blur. That's still not 100% accurate, but I'm no artist & trying to describe it is beyond my ken. When the machine is booting from disk, the screen flashes and flickers like a mad thing: But as I say, it seems to be *digital* noise rather than analogue. But with some analogue effects thrown in for good measure... Maybe I should monitor the PSU voltage on the 'scope while the machine's booting - I hadn't thought of that one. Could be interesting - the bulk of the computer is currently upside down on the bench to make it easy to access the bits of the PSU I need to probe... if the 5v line is flapping about, this could cause the digital effects. Mind you, the fact the machine boots properly indicates that the logic side of the machine is working fine; and I'd have thought the disk drive would be more sensitive to 12v fluctuations than the monitor? > Does this machine use a 6845 or similar for hre video timing > chain? Dunno, will look tomorrow (err, later today). > If so, mis-programming that will cause apparent sync > problems. So the fault could bever well be proscessor, ROM, > or bus related. Bearing in mind the machine boots, and works behind its corrupted video output, would that necessarily eliminate any of those parts from enquiries? > That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses > when you have the lines and when you have a good display > (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same > timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, > then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being > mis-configured by software_ Gotcha - will look at that tomorrow. > > I'll look for it... the monitor circuit board is quite well > labeled; > > but I'm not sure if the connectors themselves have individually > > labelled connections. > > Sony were sometimes kind enough to label connector pins, > supply lines, CRT pinouts, etc in the slikscreen, few other > manufacturers were. > > If it is a standard pinout, then the connections are > > 1 Ground > 2 One end of the contrast control > 3 t'other end of the contrast control > 4 Slider of the contrast control > 5 ground > 6 Hsync > 7 +12V power input > 8 video input > 9 Vsync > 10 ground I've not counted the pins, but one thing - where's the brightness control go? The machine has external (to the monitor) controls for both contrast & bright; as well as trimpots for both on the monitor PCB itself. > > Question: How long should I leave the tube to "cool down" > (unplugged) > > before I can rummage around it without fear of major electrocution? > > Depends on what you're working on, and the design of the > monitor. The PCB-mounted capacitors will normally discharge > fairly fast (minute at most), so there'll be no masty > votlages on PCB tracks or CRT _pins_ after that. The EHT, > stored in the 'capacitor' of the CRT glass can stay for days, > but (a) it'll be discharrged by the beam current in any > normal monitor (so this is really only a concern if the > screen is totally blank), Shouldn't be a problem; the screen is lit up, so I guess it's discharging. > () the only way you'll get in > contact with it is if you remove the anonde connector and (c) > good monitors have a bleeder resistor, often inside the > flyback trasnformer. No plans to remove any connectors inside the monitor.... > > If I am going to be removing the EHT connector, I check the > residual voltage with an EHT voltmeter (which also happens to > discharge it :-)). > Otherwise, I don't worry. So far I've never had a shock doing that. > OK, that's good to know. Many thanks again Tony - I'll try to report back the status of the h-sync tomorrow. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1433 - Release Date: 14/05/2008 16:44 From marvin at west.net Thu May 15 19:50:37 2008 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 19:50:37 -0500 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: <482CDA5D.D700D888@west.net> I finally got my selling spot this afternoon after about a 2 hour wait in line (3303.) I must have missed any other selling spots except for Patricks, but I'll check and drop by :). I have nothing classic computer related this year, but I also should get a chance to look around!!! From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 20:40:44 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:40:44 -0400 Subject: Leakproof cells, was: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <482C39CC.26491.10A9BA62@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805151700.m4FH0Nnm027970@dewey.classiccmp.org> <482C39CC.26491.10A9BA62@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200805152140.44502.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 16:25, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:40:28 +0100 > > From: "Ade Vickers" > > > > Or, of course, I could bodge my universal power supply into powering the > > multimeter...... (don't dare suggest buying a battery! ;)) > > This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask the list. > I've got some old gear that take single D- or C-sized carbon-zinc > cells, usually as some sort of minimal-current supply. For example, > my VTVM uses one for its resistance function. (Sometimes a high- > impedance meter with a real needle is hard to beat). > > I don't keep cells in this old stuff because I use it only > occasionally. > > Is there such a thing as a long-life leakproof battery that I can > use? Silver-zinc perhaps? Even though I used to manage a retail battery store (did that for almost 3 years) I don't have a ready answer for you on that one. I'll be interested in knowing what you find out, though, as I'd left a set (4 AA and 1 D) in my old Simpson 260 (as old as I am, just about) and it developed some problems. I have a 2-AA maglite that just quit working on me because of leakage -- the check they promised just arrived today and I've already replaced it. Dunno if the 3-LED bit that's replacing the standard bulb has anything to do with that or what. And it ain't the first set of Duracells that's leaked in there, either, but they apparently do stand behind their product. Alkaline has pretty much dominated the market for as far as I've seen in most stores recently, though it's my understanding that carbon-zinc cells *might* still be available. Or there's the approach I took with my old "Hickock Model 156 Indicating Traxceometer" -- I just rigged up a bias supply in there to replace the 3 D cells that nobody'd changed in I don't know how long and which corroded the crap out of the battery holder. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 20:57:10 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:57:10 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805152157.10472.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 18:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > Or, of course, I could bodge my universal power supply into powering the > > Be careful doing that if one side of the universal PSU is grounded. Quite > a few simple DMM circutis do not have the -ve side of the battery > connected to the -ve input terminal. Indeed. My Simpson 461 for one example, will suffer some nontrivial damage if you connnect either of the test leads to either of the battery connections -- blows up some resistors and a reference diode, from what I recall. Dumb way to design something, but... > > multimeter...... (don't dare suggest buying a battery! ;)) > > Unless your meter takes some obscure battery, I am suprised you don't > have them in stock. ... > > -tony -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 20:59:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:59:26 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <021e01c8b6e4$ff38f260$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <021e01c8b6e4$ff38f260$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805152159.27187.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 19:40, Ade Vickers wrote: > In my defence, I *do* have a 4000sqft warehouse to search, and it's not in > any particular order... If I had that much space to keep stuff in, I'd have to spend at least some small amount of time organizing it or I'd go crazy... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 21:04:15 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:04:15 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <021f01c8b6e6$29a7b850$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805151550.55374.rtellason@verizon.net> <021f01c8b6e6$29a7b850$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805152204.16370.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 19:48, Ade Vickers wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote : > > Hm, could be I'm mis-remembering slightly here. Or it could > > be used in later stuff. I recall seeing only one or two of > > the tan case units, most of them were the later ones. > > I sold my non-tan cased Ozzie, on the basis it wasn't rare enough for my > liking! Of course, that one worked perfectly... I'd have kept it for spare parts, at least -- inside they're basically the same... > > > Measured with respect to Earth (green wire, goes everywhere > > > including to the mainboard). As far as I can tell, this acts as GND for > > > the whole machine? > > > > Shielding more than anything else, I'd guess. > > OK, that would make sense. In which case, I'd expect the differential > between pins 3 & 4 to be approx 5v, but will confirm tomorrow. Ok. > > Even still, it shouldn't be fluctuating either. > > My mistake - there was no fluctuation, except in the optics of the sensor > (me & my eyes). The voltage output was a perfectly flat line (except when > the 'scope sensitivity was turned to 20mv/cm, at which point I could just > about see some rectification effects - but getting the 'scope to trigger on > the peaks was really hard work; it's a pretty flat line. > > The signal on Pin 3 (-0.1v I guessed at) was a little noiser, but seemed to > be random noise. Having said that, I didn't "zoom in" on it so much. > > If, as you imply, Pin 3 is GND and Pin 4 is +5v; then the difference > between those two is much closer to 5v than between Pin 4 & Earth. Ok... > > > Your assistance is much appreciated. I've still got to try Tony's > > > suggestion of checking out the H-sync signal, but I need to > > > find it first... > > > > It'll be on that connector on the front, and prety obvious > > which one it is because of the repetition rate, as opposed > > to the much lower rate for the vertical sync, and the much > > erratic nature of the video. And if it's *way* off in > > frequency or changes a lot or has a lot of jitter than we're > > probably looking at the power supply not being right. > > Should I probe these with reference to the GND (Earth/shield) or the 0v > line (pin 3, as above)? I'd find a convenient ground point. Beside the ones on the power supply there are no doubt others on the mainboard and at least one on that edge connector. > > > I shall consider it - is there any (non-destructive: I know you can > > > pump 240vac into it, then when the magic smoke escapes > > > conclude it's broken :)) way to test an electrolytic cap? > > > > With some equipment, yeah. The least I'd want is to use an > > isolation transformer to plug the computer into and then > > scope across the main filter caps and see what you get, but > > I wouldn't care to mess around in there without an isolation > > transformer. > > > > If they're bulgy on top they're bad. > > They look brand new TBH. Not even any dust on them (probably because the > PSU is mounted component-side-down in the case). That, and the case itself > is pretty tightly sealed when the unit is assembled & closed up. A bit of a contrast to my Exec, which has a fan in it, that I replaced with a slightly stronger (AC) one. :-) That was a retrofit done by several O-1 owners that I know of that wanted cooler and more reliable operation. All you need to do is replace the bit under the handle with one that has the fan opening, at least on the gray case. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 15 21:10:00 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:10:00 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <022001c8b6e6$29d04ef0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <022001c8b6e6$29d04ef0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805152210.00502.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 May 2008 19:48, Ade Vickers wrote: (Snip) > Maybe I should monitor the PSU voltage on the 'scope while the machine's > booting - I hadn't thought of that one. Could be interesting - the bulk of > the computer is currently upside down on the bench to make it easy to > access the bits of the PSU I need to probe... if the 5v line is flapping > about, this could cause the digital effects. Mind you, the fact the machine > boots properly indicates that the logic side of the machine is working > fine; and I'd have thought the disk drive would be more sensitive to 12v > fluctuations than the monitor? The drive only uses the 12V for the spindle motor, I think, but do check them both. And clean the edge connectors for the drive ribbon cable too, that's been a trouble spot in my experience, what with them running power through the ribbon cable. > > Does this machine use a 6845 or similar for hre video timing > > chain? > > Dunno, will look tomorrow (err, later today). I believe so, though it's been a long time and I can't be 100% certain of it. > > If so, mis-programming that will cause apparent sync > > problems. So the fault could bever well be proscessor, ROM, > > or bus related. > > Bearing in mind the machine boots, and works behind its corrupted video > output, would that necessarily eliminate any of those parts from enquiries? Not necesarily. > > That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses > > when you have the lines and when you have a good display > > (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same > > timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, > > then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being > > mis-configured by software_ > > Gotcha - will look at that tomorrow. > > > > I'll look for it... the monitor circuit board is quite well labeled; but > > > I'm not sure if the connectors themselves have individually labelled > > > connections. > > > > Sony were sometimes kind enough to label connector pins, > > supply lines, CRT pinouts, etc in the slikscreen, few other > > manufacturers were. > > > > If it is a standard pinout, then the connections are > > > > 1 Ground > > 2 One end of the contrast control > > 3 t'other end of the contrast control > > 4 Slider of the contrast control > > 5 ground > > 6 Hsync > > 7 +12V power input > > 8 video input > > 9 Vsync > > 10 ground > > I've not counted the pins, but one thing - where's the brightness control > go? The machine has external (to the monitor) controls for both contrast & > bright; as well as trimpots for both on the monitor PCB itself. Darn, I *really* need to find my schematics on this stuff... :-) (Snip) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu May 15 03:31:05 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:31:05 +0100 Subject: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BBA7@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Address Contents 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 010 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 010 000 000 000 000 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hatch Sent: 14 May 2008 09:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed 0-24 thats 0-16 Dec. Don't know the 8's but that would suggest to me that 4 bits (1 chips worth) are stuck somewhere leading to some address decoding ?. Does it repeat higher up the addresses ?. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed > Now that's interesting.. > > I have a PDP-8/e as well. I can't store in locations 000 000 000 000 to > 000 000 011 000 (0 - 24 Dec) > Above is OK > > > If somebody has an answer to your problem. They might know something > about mune. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G. Thomas > Sent: 09 May 2008 16:36 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed > > Hi, > > I've got a PDP-8E which I've almost got working. > > Can anyone here help me figure out this remaining problem? > > As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then go back > to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address higher than > 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they go low, as soon > as I hit the examine switch to step to the next memory location. > > I can manually load an address 1000000 or 10000000, and hit examine to > see 1000001, 1000010, 1000011, etc..., but once I reach 1001111, it's > back to 1000000. > > It was recommended to me that it might be the carry between E52 and E37, > or the E38 input multiplexer for bit 7 (on M8300), so last night I > socketed and replaced all three of those ICs, but I still see the same > symptoms. > > I have extender boards, so can access M8300 during operation. I measured > the carry line between E52 and E37 go low when I reach 1111, but the > light for line 10000 doesn't light on the front panel on the next > address, and I see the data from memory location 0000, 0001, etc. > repeated, displayed as I continue to step through memory locations, as > described above. > > Of course, if someone has a spare M8300 they would be willing to sell > me, that's another option. > > Mark > > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) > voice: 215-591-3695 > http://mail-cleaner.com/ > > > > > From jefferwin at gmail.com Thu May 15 09:20:43 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:20:43 -0700 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem Message-ID: <7c7c96a50805150720p7e2cd148j281bc1954b409f46@mail.gmail.com> I purchased a used Tek 2445 scope which works well on both CH1 and CH2. Both 10x probes check out as well. I am working on getting an rs232 interface working, if I scope the TX signal from my terminal I get a clean and synced image on the scope on both channels. All is good. I am rebuiding an IMSAI 8080. The unit I have is working well, 48K of RAM all tested, I can enter programs through the front panel and run them. Getting it to talk to my terminal program is the task at hand. Now comes the mystery. If I scope ANY bus line, chip lead on any board, I get a 60Hz sine wave that measures about 70 volts. Now, in my logical head I realize this can't be real, the IMSAI would not only not work but would be pouring smoke from every nook and cranny, bringing my wife running with claims of 'I told you so...'. So, what the hell? I have checked ground, I have checked the bus lines, I have checked the scope. I do have the active terminator card in the last slot and as I mentoned, the IMSAI works fine otherwise. Where am I picking up this 60hz sine wave? Thanks in advance! I love the fact that there are others out there that remember these great old machines and appreciate them for what they represent! Jeff Erwin From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 15 10:09:24 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N -- warning In-Reply-To: <8CA8485FAEA2CBB-BC4-2C07@webmail-nb21.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA8485FAEA2CBB-BC4-2C07@webmail-nb21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2008, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > Be careful when using broker websites for semiconductors. > > In my search for some SMC UARTS, I've come across some sites > that appear to have "open registration" for posting inventories. > (i.e., anyone can supply an inventory list, and an e-mail address, > and they'll show up on the vendor search.) In my opinion, these are all worthless. They all claim to have everything, but if you read the fine print you find that they won't even talk to you about order under $2-300. I've been trying to find a good source for 27C200 and 27C400 EPROMS and ran into all of these clowns. Does anyone actually know where I can buy small quantities of these (besides eBay, where I've already been burned by a Hong-Kong based vendor who shipped pulls that cannot be programmed successfully). Steve -- From jefferwin at gmail.com Thu May 15 10:50:36 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:50:36 -0700 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem In-Reply-To: <2E369AA9-5649-4E5E-A75D-A53A322A4DA8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Case solved (I think). It seems to matter where I ground the probe. I pulled all of the boards out of the system, no change. I then grounded the probe to the middle finger of the voltage regulator on the board and the sine wave went away. Very odd. On 5/15/08 8:18 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On May 15, 2008, at 10:20 AM, Jeff Erwin wrote: >> I purchased a used Tek 2445 scope which works well on both CH1 and >> CH2. Both >> 10x probes check out as well. I am working on getting an rs232 >> interface >> working, if I scope the TX signal from my terminal I get a clean >> and synced >> image on the scope on both channels. All is good. >> >> I am rebuiding an IMSAI 8080. The unit I have is working well, 48K >> of RAM >> all tested, I can enter programs through the front panel and run them. >> Getting it to talk to my terminal program is the task at hand. >> >> Now comes the mystery. If I scope ANY bus line, chip lead on any >> board, I >> get a 60Hz sine wave that measures about 70 volts. Now, in my >> logical head >> I realize this can't be real, the IMSAI would not only not work but >> would be >> pouring smoke from every nook and cranny, bringing my wife running >> with >> claims of 'I told you so...'. >> >> So, what the hell? I have checked ground, I have checked the bus >> lines, I >> have checked the scope. I do have the active terminator card in >> the last >> slot and as I mentoned, the IMSAI works fine otherwise. >> >> Where am I picking up this 60hz sine wave? > > That sounds to me like a very nasty grounding problem. Be careful! > > -Dave >> > From crc120 at comcast.net Thu May 15 11:27:54 2008 From: crc120 at comcast.net (Claude R. Ceccon) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:27:54 -0700 Subject: Serial-to-Ethernet Adaptor Message-ID: <5AB728B1-5E32-43CC-8090-53D4018E4B69@comcast.net> I came across an application note and software on the Luminary Micro site implementing subject device. The application note is the last one on the App Note page and the Software Update page references the app note. You can get a device with ethernet and three UARTS for a bit over US$ 10 in singles - ARM Cortex processor. CRC From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 16 01:53:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:53:32 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <200805152204.m4FM4JqF033084@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805152204.m4FM4JqF033084@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482CCCFC.13217.12E8A6E2@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Eric Smith" > Bittorrent doesn't help at all for things that only a few (less than > about five) people are trying to download at the same time. FTP is > generally *more* efficient than bittorrent for that. Agreed. When you have a small community who have interest in a BT file and most of the interested people have picked it up already, you can grow whiskers waiting for a seed to emerge. I've seen some rather pitiful begging on the 'net for a seed for such-and-such a file. Sometimes you do find a seed, but he's got his upload throttled down to something like 3Kb/second. It'd be faster to get the file via Aldis lamp. The idea behind BT is utilizing the power of a mob, er "swarm". Three isn't a swarm. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri May 16 03:50:09 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:50:09 +0100 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 15:27 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm not even going to start with the security issues. Yeah. FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted me to name a massive security hole. You might as well just post your root password and IP address on some l33t h4xx0r forum. Gordon From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri May 16 04:08:50 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 10:08:50 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805152159.27187.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><021e01c8b6e4$ff38f260$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805152159.27187.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <026001c8b734$74f70fb0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > In my defence, I *do* have a 4000sqft warehouse to search, and it's > > not in any particular order... > > If I had that much space to keep stuff in, I'd have to spend > at least some small amount of time organizing it or I'd go crazy... :) A lot of the space goes to storing stuff to do with cars - I have 2 racing cars, 5 road cars & a kit car in there at the moment, and a coach (bus). But there's a load of old computers in there as well... And the Sinclair Programmables are very very small... Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1445 - Release Date: 15/05/2008 19:25 From ats at offog.org Fri May 16 04:21:34 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 10:21:34 +0100 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> (Gordon JC Pearce's message of "Fri\, 16 May 2008 09\:50\:09 +0100") References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: Gordon JC Pearce writes: > FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted me > to name a massive security hole. The other problem with FTP for this sort of thing is that it often interacts badly with NAT and firewalling (at both ends of the connection). My preference for distributing large trees of files is rsync, since it's designed for that, and it lets you efficiently update an existing local copy with as little data transferred as possible -- which is great for things like Bitsavers that are constantly being added to. I would imagine a collection of old databooks would be of interest to people in the vintage radio/TV communities as well, so it certainly sounds like a worthwhile project to me. "Voltsavers", perhaps? -- Adam Sampson From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 16 06:03:15 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 07:03:15 -0400 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 15, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Richard wrote: >> [...] I once thought of using a sound card to generate ramps and >> digitize the tube's analog output signal. > > Ooooh... sneaky! I like that idea. I doubt the voltage levels are > compatible, but I haven't looked at the schematics closely enough to > know for sure. It sounds like a very nice little microcontroller project. If I had a 4010 I'd build one in a heartbeat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 16 06:40:17 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 07:40:17 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200805160740.18161.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 May 2008, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 15:27 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I'm not even going to start with the security issues. > > Yeah. FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you > wanted me to name a massive security hole. You might as well just > post your root password and IP address on some l33t h4xx0r forum. Huh? I assume that we're talking about anonymous FTP, and that we're running a version with the latest security updates in place... FTP with a username and password (well, if it has any access beyond the FTP repository on the machine) sent in plaintext across the "internet cloud" probably isn't a smart idea. Of course, if you use http instead, that means that your content will (probably) get index by the likes of Google, so that other people can actually find it... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri May 16 07:01:49 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 13:01:49 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 15, 8 09:13:42 am Message-ID: <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > There is a de-facto 'standard' for 10 pin monitors (using a > 0/156" pitch edge connector or header plug). The DEC VT100 > monitor PCB is one such, if you need more details... Looks like the standard has been used... enough pins seemed to match up with your description, that I went with it. So, here are the two traces, hsync & vsync: http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/hsync.jpg http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/vsync.jpg Apologies about the quality of the hsync one, the camera seems to have refocussed itself on its own reflection... > That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses > when you have the lines and when you have a good display > (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same > timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, > then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being > mis-configured by software_ H-sync pulses (and the vsync, for what it's worth) are identical when the machine is crashed or running. However, I don't understand why that would put the fault in the monitor? And it still doesn't explain the digital artifacts... There does seem to be a significant amount of noise coming off the board; I could get a reading on the 'scope when the probe was a good 2-3cm away from the board - not sure WHAT signal, just a square-ish peak in the middle of the screen... Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1445 - Release Date: 15/05/2008 19:25 From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 16 08:59:49 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 06:59:49 -0700 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N -- warning In-Reply-To: References: <8CA8485FAEA2CBB-BC4-2C07@webmail-nb21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90805160659h364499e9v67f8a60b72889ec2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:09 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > I've been trying to find a good source for 27C200 and 27C400 EPROMS and ran > into all of these clowns. Does anyone actually know where I can buy small > quantities of these (besides eBay, where I've already been burned by a > Hong-Kong based vendor who shipped pulls that cannot be programmed > successfully). > > Steve > Are you looking for something other than M27C2001 (256Kx8) M27C4001 (512Kx8) M27C4002 (256Kx16) ? Both DigiKey and Mouser list those in stock. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 16 10:58:17 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:58:17 -0700 Subject: Hosting data book scans (was Re: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs) Message-ID: <482DAF19.7060200@bitsavers.org> > My preference for distributing large trees of files is > rsync, since it's designed for that, and it lets you efficiently > update an existing local copy with as little data transferred as > possible -- which is great for things like Bitsavers that are > constantly being added to. Which is working quite well.. > so it certainly sounds like a worthwhile project to me. "Voltsavers" The issue isn't who hosts it, but the bandwidth issues. There are hundreds of data books, and they are running about 100mb each when scanned. It is impractical for me to burst them into smaller chunks due to the time it would take to do it. I've had little luck getting people to work on postprocessing the scans in the past. Currently, about 1/3 of everything I have scanned is on bitsavers. It takes about a week to process what I can scan in a day. On an average scanning day I can scan 5-10 thousand pages. I've been scanning now for over 9 years (obviously, not every day).. Because of the thinness of the paper used, a box of data books is over 10k pages. This should give you an idea of the magnitude of work involved in scanning a large databook collection.. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri May 16 11:22:39 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 17:22:39 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from"AdeVickers" at May 15, 8 09:13:42 am <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <02bd01c8b771$0f812b10$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Right, I've now multimetered the voltages, and: The 12v line is running at 12.74v The 5v line is running at 5.40v I didn't check the -13v line I took readings from a couple places: Straight off the PSU plug, and in the case of the 12v, at the monitor plug. I wasn't sure about the 5v; I took a reading across each of the 8132 chips, getting 4.14v and 4.16v; but I guess those may not be meaningful as the chip itself will be taking some of that power. Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1445 - Release Date: 15/05/2008 19:25 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri May 16 14:16:12 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:16:12 +0100 Subject: mag tape usage ( was bandwidth) In-Reply-To: <200805152204.m4FM4JqN033084@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805152204.m4FM4JqN033084@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 15 May, 2008, at 23:04, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > PS: Also how may on this list still use mag tape > with the vintage equipment? I do, but my Ampex drives use analogue tape type spools rather than the later 'industry standard' ones. They are half inch but ten track not 7 or 9 and because of the smaller hole, with normal thickness tape they got 3200 feet on a spool rather than 2400 feet. The machine optionally used one inch or quarter inch analogue spools on different decks, and the one inch transports ran at 150 inches per second. Roger Holmes From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri May 16 14:59:04 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 19:59:04 +0000 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem Message-ID: <051620081959.13611.482DE788000BD1380000352B22070210539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:13:42 +0100 >From: "Ade Vickers" >Subject: RE: Osborne OCC1 problem >Hi chaps, >This is a kind of amalgamated response to all who have responded; thanks! Hi, For the video pinouts, take a look at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-July/176233.html. To repeat part of that thread, the signals come from the bottom of the edge connector on the front panel and the shunt carries them to the top, where they go to a single inline connector that connects to the monitor. Looking at the edge connector from the front (numbered right to left, odd on top, even on the bottom), the signals are: 2 Ground 4 Brightness High 6 Brightness Low 8 Brightness Arm 10 Ground 12 Horizontal sync 14 +12V 16 Video out 18 Vertical sync 20 Ground The shunt just connects the top contact to its mate on the bottom: 1 to 2, 3 to 4, etc. There is/was a pdf of the Osborne 1 Technical Reference manual online. I don't have a link handy, but it has been posted before, so just search the archives. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 16 14:35:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:35:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <02bd01c8b771$0f812b10$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 16, 8 05:22:39 pm Message-ID: > > Right, I've now multimetered the voltages, and: > > The 12v line is running at 12.74v > The 5v line is running at 5.40v > > I didn't check the -13v line > > I took readings from a couple places: Straight off the PSU plug, and in the > case of the 12v, at the monitor plug. > > I wasn't sure about the 5v; I took a reading across each of the 8132 chips, > getting 4.14v and 4.16v; but I guess those may not be meaningful as the chip > itself will be taking some of that power. Hang on, are you saying you're getting 5.4V at the output of the PSU and 4.16V across the power and ground pins of a chip on the logic board? The fact that the ship is drawing current _should be_ irrelevant. The voltage is being droppead across the impedance of the supply connections (wiring, connectors, PCB tracks) betweem the PSU and chip, and that impedance should be low enough not to drop 1V or more. And that could well be your problem. A high impedance (relatively) supply or ground connection can cause 'intersting' voltage drops when anything starts drawing current. And that'll lead to things not working. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 16 14:31:18 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:31:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 16, 8 01:01:49 pm Message-ID: > > That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses > > when you have the lines and when you have a good display > > (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same > > timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, > > then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being > > mis-configured by software_ > > H-sync pulses (and the vsync, for what it's worth) are identical when the > machine is crashed or running. However, I don't understand why that would > put the fault in the monitor? And it still doesn't explain the digital > artifacts... Well, if the Hsync pulses are indential whether the display is stable or not, then the Hsync generation circuitry is not the prolem. And if the monitor is not locking to them, the fault is either the monitor or the PSU, presumably. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 16 14:24:07 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:24:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <022001c8b6e6$29d04ef0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 16, 8 00:48:23 am Message-ID: > > > What's happening is a corruption of the display, rather than an > > > adjustment > > > > > > A more accurate fault description would be helpful... > > Well, the video I linked to is about the best description I could think > of... Which is not a lot of help to those of us with a text-only display, and to whom 'video recording' means a Philips N1500 or V2000 tape... > > When the screen is showing static information, and the disk(s) are not > running, then the display kind of looks like it's got a h-synch problem. Or, > try this: It looks like there's a strong right-to-left motion blur. That's > still not 100% accurate, but I'm no artist & trying to describe it is beyond > my ken. > > When the machine is booting from disk, the screen flashes and flickers like > a mad thing: But as I say, it seems to be *digital* noise rather than > analogue. But with some analogue effects thrown in for good measure... That sounds _very_ like PSU trouble to me. The disk drive motors take significant current, and that's pulling one of the supply rails down and casuing all sorts of prolems. The average voltage of the supply line, as measured by a mulitmeter, may not change much, but a 'scope would show masty dips in the voltage > > Maybe I should monitor the PSU voltage on the 'scope while the machine's > booting - I hadn't thought of that one. Could be interesting - the bulk of > the computer is currently upside down on the bench to make it easy to access > the bits of the PSU I need to probe... if the 5v line is flapping about, > this could cause the digital effects. Mind you, the fact the machine boots > properly indicates that the logic side of the machine is working fine; and > I'd have thought the disk drive would be more sensitive to 12v fluctuations > than the monitor? > > If it is a standard pinout, then the connections are > > > > 1 Ground > > 2 One end of the contrast control > > 3 t'other end of the contrast control > > 4 Slider of the contrast control > > 5 ground > > 6 Hsync > > 7 +12V power input > > 8 video input > > 9 Vsync > > 10 ground > > I've not counted the pins, but one thing - where's the brightness control > go? The machine has external (to the monitor) controls for both contrast & > bright; as well as trimpots for both on the monitor PCB itself. Well, it might be a non-standard pinout, then :-(. Or is there a separate 3-wire cable for the brightness pot? I've seen that several times. -tony From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri May 16 15:02:52 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:02:52 +0000 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem Message-ID: <051620082002.19139.482DE86C000B8F3200004AC322070210539DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> >Message: 10 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:22:39 -0400 >From: "Roy J. Tellason" >Subject: Re: Osborne OCC1 problem >I wonder if anybody ever sold anything that plugged in there? There were adaptors for external monitors. The one I had was "Exmon" brand. Bob From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri May 16 16:46:07 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:46:07 +0000 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem Message-ID: <051620082146.135.482E009F000EE3A10000008722070016419DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> I found the O1 Technical Ref Manual PDF. It's on Dave Dunfield's site at http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/osborne/index.htm. The link is at the bottom of the page. Bob From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 16 16:48:36 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:48:36 -0600 Subject: Tip: scanning large documents in sections and stitching together Message-ID: See for a tool that will allow you to stitch together a larger image from partial scans. This sounds like just the right tool to use when scanning large circuit diagrams on a scanner that can't capture the whole document in one pass. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 16 17:05:27 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tip: scanning large documents in sections and stitching together In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2008, Richard wrote: > See for a tool that will allow you to > stitch together a larger image from partial scans. This sounds like > just the right tool to use when scanning large circuit diagrams on a > scanner that can't capture the whole document in one pass. I've been using the Gimp, for all my image processing needs: http://www.gimp.org/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 16 17:33:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:33:42 -0700 Subject: Data sheet distribution In-Reply-To: <200805161700.m4GH06MU042894@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805161700.m4GH06MU042894@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <482DA956.8406.164564EF@cclist.sydex.com> Out of curiosity, I went to torrentz.com and searched on "datasheet". A couple of hits. One is a collection of datahseets from Elektor that I haven't looked at (I'm on the wrong side of the pond to know much about Elektor). About 230MB worth. The other is a melange of various datasheets. Lots of op-amps, some digital ICs, transistors and other bits and pieces. Rev. C of the Kaypro service manual (Bitsavers has Rev. E). Information on a Techtran diskette drive unit, some stuff on time standards. The gem, IMOHO, is a two-file collection of Western Electric datasheets for transistors, ICs, diodes and LEDs. Most look to be from about 1976 or earlier. It might be very useful to someone who needs to know, for example, that the 18 pin DIP 146D is an integrated wait state generator for the Bellmac-8 processor. Unfortunately, these PDFs aren't indexed beyond general categories, just sort of mixed all together. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 16 18:52:42 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 16:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: <47545.64.62.206.10.1210981962.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Gordon wrote: > Yeah. FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted > me to name a massive security hole. You might as well just post your > root password and IP address on some l33t h4xx0r forum. Depends a whole lot on what FTP server software you use, on what operating system, and how it's configured. I've had an FTP server exposed to the world for over ten years, and it hasn't yet caused me trouble, because I was *very* careful about how I set it up. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 16 18:55:44 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 16:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tip: scanning large documents in sections and stitching together In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47583.64.62.206.10.1210982144.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > See for a tool that will allow you to > stitch together a larger image from partial scans. This sounds like > just the right tool to use when scanning large circuit diagrams on a > scanner that can't capture the whole document in one pass. Note that for stitching scans, you want to configure hugin for an "ideal camera". The more common panoramic settings should NOT be used. http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/scans/en.shtml Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 16 19:48:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:48:27 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <026001c8b734$74f70fb0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <019101c8b6aa$62523770$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805152159.27187.rtellason@verizon.net> <026001c8b734$74f70fb0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805162048.28198.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 May 2008 05:08, Ade Vickers wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > In my defence, I *do* have a 4000sqft warehouse to search, and it's > > > not in any particular order... > > > > If I had that much space to keep stuff in, I'd have to spend > > at least some small amount of time organizing it or I'd go crazy... > > > :) > > A lot of the space goes to storing stuff to do with cars - I have 2 racing > cars, 5 road cars & a kit car in there at the moment, and a coach (bus). > But there's a load of old computers in there as well... And the Sinclair > Programmables are very very small... > > Cheers! > Ade. Currently I'm dealing with a 10x22 ft garage for some stuff, and the fact that I haven't spent at least some time over there today bothers me... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 16 19:51:07 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:51:07 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200805162051.07449.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 May 2008 05:21, Adam Sampson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce writes: > > FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted me > > to name a massive security hole. > > The other problem with FTP for this sort of thing is that it often > interacts badly with NAT and firewalling (at both ends of the > connection). My preference for distributing large trees of files is > rsync, since it's designed for that, and it lets you efficiently > update an existing local copy with as little data transferred as > possible -- which is great for things like Bitsavers that are > constantly being added to. > > I would imagine a collection of old databooks would be of interest to > people in the vintage radio/TV communities as well, so it certainly > sounds like a worthwhile project to me. "Voltsavers", perhaps? If we're talking about individual datasheets and app notes, we could, as I suggested to Al offlist, add them to the stuff I have online now: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html I've not yet begun to set up much with regard to tech books, though I have some of those to put online too, when I get to that particular round tuit. *IF* I can get at the data that's on the drives in the server that just went down on me recently, an issue that's giving me fits lately... "I/O error"? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 16 19:56:59 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:56:59 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <02bd01c8b771$0f812b10$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <02bd01c8b771$0f812b10$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805162057.00226.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 May 2008 12:22, Ade Vickers wrote: > Right, I've now multimetered the voltages, and: > > The 12v line is running at 12.74v > The 5v line is running at 5.40v A little high in both cases. > I didn't check the -13v line > > I took readings from a couple places: Straight off the PSU plug, and in the > case of the 12v, at the monitor plug. > > I wasn't sure about the 5v; I took a reading across each of the 8132 chips, > getting 4.14v and 4.16v; but I guess those may not be meaningful as the > chip itself will be taking some of that power. 8132 chips? That's *definitely* too low, if it's supposed to be +5V. Enough to cause the logic to act quite strangely... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 16 20:00:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:00:38 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805162100.39141.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 May 2008 15:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses > > > when you have the lines and when you have a good display > > > (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same > > > timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, > > > then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being > > > mis-configured by software_ > > > > H-sync pulses (and the vsync, for what it's worth) are identical when the > > machine is crashed or running. However, I don't understand why that would > > put the fault in the monitor? And it still doesn't explain the digital > > artifacts... > > Well, if the Hsync pulses are indential whether the display is stable or > not, then the Hsync generation circuitry is not the prolem. And if the > monitor is not locking to them, the fault is either the monitor or the > PSU, presumably. Without any indication of amplitude or repetition rate it's hard to say whether they're good Hsync pulses or not. The image of that Vsync pulse sure looks a little odd to me... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 16 20:02:36 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:02:36 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <051620082146.135.482E009F000EE3A10000008722070016419DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <051620082146.135.482E009F000EE3A10000008722070016419DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200805162102.36429.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 May 2008 17:46, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > I found the O1 Technical Ref Manual PDF. It's on Dave Dunfield's site at > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/osborne/index.htm. The link is at the > bottom of the page. Hm, the page says 19M, but firefox is telling me 183MB, loading as I type this... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri May 16 20:32:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:32:47 -0400 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805162100.39141.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805162100.39141.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200805162132.47811.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 16 May 2008 21:00, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 16 May 2008 15:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > That's why I'd start by looking at the horizotnal sync pulses > > > > when you have the lines and when you have a good display > > > > (even if the machine has crashed). If they're the same > > > > timing, then the fault is monotor (or PSU?) releated. If not, > > > > then the video timing circuitry is palying up _or being > > > > mis-configured by software_ > > > > > > H-sync pulses (and the vsync, for what it's worth) are identical when > > > the machine is crashed or running. However, I don't understand why that > > > would put the fault in the monitor? And it still doesn't explain the > > > digital artifacts... > > > > Well, if the Hsync pulses are indential whether the display is stable or > > not, then the Hsync generation circuitry is not the prolem. And if the > > monitor is not locking to them, the fault is either the monitor or the > > PSU, presumably. > > Without any indication of amplitude or repetition rate it's hard to say > whether they're good Hsync pulses or not. The image of that Vsync pulse > sure looks a little odd to me... The tech manual pointed to in another post gives a nice set of diagrams for what those sync pulses _should_ look like, around 43 or so pages into it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 16 21:53:49 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 19:53:49 -0700 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805162057.00226.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <00c701c8b663$96a01430$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <02bd01c8b771$0f812b10$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805162057.00226.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > On Friday 16 May 2008 12:22, Ade Vickers wrote: >> Right, I've now multimetered the voltages, and: >> >> The 12v line is running at 12.74v >> The 5v line is running at 5.40v > > A little high in both cases. > >> I didn't check the -13v line >> >> I took readings from a couple places: Straight off the PSU plug, and in the >> case of the 12v, at the monitor plug. >> >> I wasn't sure about the 5v; I took a reading across each of the 8132 chips, >> getting 4.14v and 4.16v; but I guess those may not be meaningful as the >> chip itself will be taking some of that power. > > 8132 chips? > Hi These are bus buffers. It does sound like there is a bbad ground path. He should try using a good jumper to cross connect the ground. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 17 03:51:01 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 09:51:01 +0100 Subject: Interconnecting classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1211014261.11538.45.camel@elric> On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 22:00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > One-to-many is easy, many-to-many is slightly harder, and the latter is > what I would need. I am not looking to interconenct one of my classics to > this PC, I am looking to interconnect any pair of my classics Just a thought, but can you live with just TXD, RXD and ground? If you can, then make a bunch of serial-to-1/4" jack cables, and buy a cheap studio patchbay. They consist of a row of little boards with four 1/4" stereo jacks on them, wired so that normally two are wired together, plugging into one socket breaks the link, and plugging into the other socket parallels with the two on the back. Gordon From olinick at palmbeach.k12.fl.us Fri May 16 11:13:46 2008 From: olinick at palmbeach.k12.fl.us (Jerry Olinick) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 12:13:46 -0400 Subject: IBM DisplayWriter DOS Message-ID: Hi, just read your message about the Displaywriter. What I did to exchange files was to send the information via modem on my Displaywtier to my laptop's modem. It worked extremely well. Or I uploaded files to Compuserve and then downloaded them. I would love to own Displaywriter again. ----------------------------------------- Under Florida law, e-mail addresses are public records. If you do not want your e-mail address released in response to a public records request, do not send electronic mail to this entity. Instead, contact this office by phone or in writing. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 17 06:58:17 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 07:58:17 -0400 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? Message-ID: <000001c8b815$4b3be6a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am interested in PAL / GAL programming and would like to buy a book on the subject. Does anyone have any recommendation(s)? Alternatively, there may be websites with PAL / GAL programming how to guides. Those would be useful too. I have a rough idea using PALASM but it has been a long time since I have used anything like it. The reason is as my neo vintage SBC design is nearing completion and I will be ordering the PCBs soon, however, I am keeping an eye out to the next version. I am severely space limited with the Eurocard format (160x100mm) and I am investigating potential PAL/GAL implementation to free some board space. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Andrew Lynch From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat May 17 08:47:18 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 14:47:18 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: <027201c8b74c$9f9ea170$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 16, 8 01:01:49 pm Message-ID: <00cf01c8b824$8610f1d0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell: > Well, if the Hsync pulses are indential whether the display > is stable or not, then the Hsync generation circuitry is not > the prolem. And if the monitor is not locking to them, the > fault is either the monitor or the PSU, presumably. As the monitor will lock to them when the computer has crashed, I wonder if it's noise from somewhere interfering with the video signal generation? Or, perhaps, the monitor itself is being subjected to noise which is trashing the display. Whatever the cause, it's definitely only when the machine is running that the problem manifests itself. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 16/05/2008 19:42 From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat May 17 08:47:18 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 14:47:18 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: <02bd01c8b771$0f812b10$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 16, 8 05:22:39 pm Message-ID: <00d001c8b824$86325c80$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Hang on, are you saying you're getting 5.4V at the output of > the PSU and 4.16V across the power and ground pins of a chip > on the logic board? > I am, but I was wrong... I'd got the wrong pin; in fact, the voltage drop (on the multimeter) is 0.1v (5.4v to 5.3v) when I use the "correct" GND pin. And the chip is an F6821P, not an 8132 (I'd read the wrong number, and got that wrong too... blame my flaky memory). Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 16/05/2008 19:42 From ray at arachelian.com Sat May 17 10:12:45 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 11:12:45 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: <482EF5ED.8080608@arachelian.com> Adam Sampson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce writes: > > >> FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted me >> to name a massive security hole. >> Depends on the ftp server you use, and how it's configured. chroot is your friend here, though not your only friend. > > The other problem with FTP for this sort of thing is that it often > interacts badly with NAT and firewalling (at both ends of the > connection). Allowing for passive ftp is one way to fix this. Some NAT systems have a proxy for this if you don't like passive ftp, for example, OBSD's pf uses this sort of proxy. However, there's nothing wrong with putting this stuff on a web server instead, which makes life a lot easier for everything except the "grab this entire directory" option - but for that, there's always wget. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat May 17 10:34:02 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 16:34:02 +0100 Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: References: <022001c8b6e6$29d04ef0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 16, 8 00:48:23 am Message-ID: <012e01c8b833$6f9381c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, the video I linked to is about the best description I could > > think of... > > Which is not a lot of help to those of us with a text-only > display, and to whom 'video recording' means a Philips N1500 > or V2000 tape... Hmm, yes, I can see how that might cause problems... I could run the picture through an ascii-art generator if that would help? ;) > > When the machine is booting from disk, the screen flashes > and flickers > > like a mad thing: But as I say, it seems to be *digital* > noise rather > > than analogue. But with some analogue effects thrown in for > good measure... > > That sounds _very_ like PSU trouble to me. The disk drive > motors take significant current, and that's pulling one of > the supply rails down and casuing all sorts of prolems. I've 'scoped the 12v & 5v lines both in "steady state" and "booting" now; both are remarkably stable (a bit of noise on the 5v line when booting, but in the millivolt range. The 12v line rises slightly when you unplug the monitor, which is not a big surprise since the monitor will, obviously, be drawing power. Basically, these readings over-ride any which have gone before....: 12v line = 12.75v, no discernable change or noise when booting or stable. Slight rise (unmeasured) when power to monitor is withdrawn. 5v line = 5.4v, dropping to 5.3 between Vss and Vcc of one of the logic chips. Generally pretty stable, some slight noise whilst booting. There is NO difference between the voltages when the machine is running (video blurry) or crashed (video stable). Hsync remains rock solid whether crashed or running. I couldn't accurately gauge the pulse width as I don't have a signal generator to calibrate the 'scope with. > The average voltage of the supply line, as measured by a > mulitmeter, may not change much, but a 'scope would show > masty dips in the voltage None visible. > Well, it might be a non-standard pinout, then :-(. Or is > there a separate > 3-wire cable for the brightness pot? I've seen that several times. Brightness goes to the monitor. The contrast, I've discovered, is just the Video Out signal passing through a variable resistor. Simple, really... Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1448 - Release Date: 16/05/2008 19:42 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 17 12:37:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:37:20 -0700 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <000001c8b815$4b3be6a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000001c8b815$4b3be6a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > > Hi, > I am interested in PAL / GAL programming and would like to buy a book on the > subject. Does anyone have any recommendation(s)? Alternatively, there may > be websites with PAL / GAL programming how to guides. Those would be useful > too. I have a rough idea using PALASM but it has been a long time since I > have used anything like it. > > The reason is as my neo vintage SBC design is nearing completion and I will > be ordering the PCBs soon, however, I am keeping an eye out to the next > version. I am severely space limited with the Eurocard format (160x100mm) > and I am investigating potential PAL/GAL implementation to free some board > space. > > Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Andrew Lynch > Hi Not sure what your looking for? Are you looking for something like PALASM or how to electrically program chips? Amazon.com is the best place to find technical books on PALASM. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 17 13:06:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 19:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <200805162057.00226.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at May 16, 8 08:56:59 pm Message-ID: > > I wasn't sure about the 5v; I took a reading across each of the 8132 ch= > ips, > > getting 4.14v and 4.16v; but I guess those may not be meaningful as the > > chip itself will be taking some of that power. > > 8132 chips? > > That's *definitely* too low, if it's supposed to be +5V. Enough to caus= > e the=20 > logic to act quite strangely... Assuming this was measured across the power pins, and not some logic signals... What worries me more is that the PSU output is on the high side, but the voltage across a logic chip is low. That measns that extra voltage has been dropped somehwere, presumably across a high-impednace PCB trace, connector, or whatever. And that's going to cause all sorts of problems when you hcae switching transients to contend with. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 17 14:57:35 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <000001c8b815$4b3be6a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000001c8b815$4b3be6a0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <45536.71.139.37.220.1211054255.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Andrew wrote: > I am interested in PAL / GAL programming and would like to buy a book on > the subject. Does anyone have any recommendation(s)? I liked "VHDL for Programmable Logic" by Skahill. Note that it covers VHDL and Cypress PLDs, rather than PALASM and Lattice GALs. The concepts it teaches are all relevant; you'll just have to deal with the significantly different syntax of PALASM and the lesser capabilities of the GAL parts. (Or use Xilinx XC96xx parts instead.) For more in-depth coverage of VHDL, I quite like the "Designer's Guide to VHDL" by Ashenden. I'm not sure what's out there in the way of books that directly cover PALASM. There are probably some good books on Verilog. On the U.S. west coast, almost all ASIC design is done in Verilog. I'm told that VHDL is used for most ASIC design on the east coast and in Europe. However, VHDL seems more popular for FPGA and CPLD design everywhere. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 18 00:21:56 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 22:21:56 -0700 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? Message-ID: <482FBCF4.2050607@bitsavers.org> > I'm not sure what's out there in the way of books that directly cover > PALASM. It's mostly covered in the data books and app notes. The last version was PALASM 4 V1.5. If you google for "PALASM 4 Ver 1.5 software manual" you'll find the docs on it. http://jason.sdsu.edu/minc/pls_man/e_palasm.pdf looks reasonable as well. PALASM is REALLY dumb. It essentially works at the fuse level. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun May 18 04:09:45 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:09:45 +0100 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <0K0Q00LZH0P2ZDQ4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K0Q00LZH0P2ZDQ4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1211101785.18494.10.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 16:25 -0400, Allison wrote: > Bob's SBC6120 is as close or better than a real 8e for playing with code. > > That s the point too. Emulation you just cant pay with wires or add > a parallel port. Aha, I disagree. You can't get at the innards of the 6120 at all, because it's a chip. If you want to get at the innards of an emulator then you can, although how accurately the emulator models the logic of the -8 might be an issue (my emulator doesn't model it at all, but largely does its own thing). Adding a parallel port is easy - you've got one on your PC. Work out what you want to talk to the parallel port, and graft on a bit of code to do it. Dead easy. Need more ports, or a smart-ish peripheral? Get one of those microcontroller boards with a USB device port and a bunch of IO lines. The Arduino Diecimila looks pretty good for this, although having more than one UART would be nice. The UART talks to a generic USB-to-Serial chip (FTDI, for those interested) and you've got an assortment of digital IO, analogue input and PWM lines to play with, and a bunch of timers and things. It presents to the PC as a serial port, and you program it in C. I reckon with one of them and a bit of interfacing hardware (level shifters and latches, mainly) I could drive most PDP-8 peripherals (if I had any). Gordon From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat May 17 09:00:35 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:00:35 +0100 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482EE503.7020204@axeside.co.uk> I'll put my name down as interested, please! I have a Tek 4052, which I believe has a compatible printer port. (I can't remember whether the 4006 also does.) My printer (4631? 4641? Whatever) doesn't work, but I don't want to dismantle it for the waveform generators. I like the sound card idea better, but a microcontroller is more portable - it will provide an image to more different machines. > Presto! Screen capture from your 4010-1/4014-1. No chance. There is _no way_ anything operating at the speed of that machine could be described as "presto" ;-) Philip. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 17 09:49:00 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Semi-annual plea: Corvus <--> Xerox 820 Software Message-ID: All, I have all the pieces here to setup a Xerox 820 board with my Corvus flat-cable drive except for the driver software. Does anyone have this or have a notion of who might have it? The interface box is rarer than hen's teeth, but I've come up with two of them. Steve -- From jrr at flippers.com Sat May 17 11:00:23 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 09:00:23 -0700 Subject: Tip: scanning large documents in sections and stitching together In-Reply-To: <47583.64.62.206.10.1210982144.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <47583.64.62.206.10.1210982144.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <482F0117.8040800@flippers.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> See for a tool that will allow you to >> stitch together a larger image from partial scans. This sounds like >> just the right tool to use when scanning large circuit diagrams on a >> scanner that can't capture the whole document in one pass. >> > > Note that for stitching scans, you want to configure hugin for an > "ideal camera". The more common panoramic settings should NOT be > used. > > http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/scans/en.shtml > > Eric > > Another very interesting stitching program (Autostitch - free!) that can generate 360 degree panoramas was written at our locqal university - UBC and is provided at this web site: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html Now I have not tried it with scans, but it sure can stitch together photographs amazingly well. I suspect it will work just as well with scans that are off-angle, etc. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From derschjo at msu.edu Sat May 17 14:47:04 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 12:47:04 -0700 Subject: Any interest in TRS-80 DT-1 terminals? Message-ID: <482F3638.7050705@msu.edu> I have a pair of TRS-80 DT-1 terminals that I've had for awhile and that I don't think I'm ever going to use. I believe they work but I have not done much with them aside from powering them up. They come with dust-covers! (fancy!) Free to whomever wants 'em. They're kinda large (about TRS-80 Model III-sized) so I'd prefer not to ship, but if that's what it takes... If there's no interest I'll probably drop them off at RE-PC in Tukwila, WA in a week or so, maybe they'll find a happy buyer for them there :). Thanks, Josh From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 18 10:17:35 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:17:35 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 May 2008 15:00:35 +0100. <482EE503.7020204@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <482EE503.7020204 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > I have a Tek 4052, which I believe has a compatible printer port. (I > can't remember whether the 4006 also does.) The 4006 would have to have the "-1" designation to indicate it includes the printer support circuitry on the display tube. The 1982 tektronix catalog says that the 4051 and 4052 are compatible with the 2631. As far as cannibalizing a 4631, I believe the ramp circuitry is contained on a card that plugs into a bus. So it would be just removing the card from the unit and plugging it into a special piece of custom hardware. However, the ramp circuitry can easily be duplicated in software with a D/A converter and the appropriate driver circuit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 18 10:19:02 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:19:02 -0600 Subject: Tip: scanning large documents in sections and stitching together In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 May 2008 09:00:23 -0700. <482F0117.8040800@flippers.com> Message-ID: In article <482F0117.8040800 at flippers.com>, John Robertson writes: > Now I have not tried it with scans, but it sure can stitch together > photographs amazingly well. I suspect it will work just as well with > scans that are off-angle, etc. I tried hugin on some overlapping picture sets I had and the results came out pretty good. This was mostly automated. I occasionally had to pick a few control points to line up pictures, but this was very quick. Results here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun May 18 10:49:28 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:49:28 -0400 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <4828F55E.8040508@neurotica.com> References: <200805121701.m4CH13t2088312@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48281CCE.15026.988A72@cclist.sydex.com> <4828F55E.8040508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone had scans or PDF's of the DEC VMS "grey wall" ? ie: all the VMS big binders Do such documents exist? I have a fair number of the big binders, I don't think I have a complete set, but it is a lot of them. And if such a set doesn't exist, I wonder if it's legal to make one available, copyright law and all, with DEC being gone, etc? if anyone has a set, just a scan or PDF (preferred) that'd be really great! Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun May 18 10:54:53 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <325460.56745.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had scans or PDF's of the > DEC VMS "grey wall" ? > > ie: all the VMS big binders > > Do such documents exist? I don't know if they exist, but they would be very, very useful if they did. I don't have a grey wall, but I would love to - and PDF's are probably the only way I'll find one. Also, PDF's would reduce the physical storage space somewhat, so you'd have more of a "grey disc" or a "grey directory". Paper copies are much easier to work from, but... So. Anyone have a grey wall and a high speed duplexing scanner? (And vast expanses of free disk...) -Ian From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 18 11:14:07 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:14:07 +0100 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <325460.56745.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004c01c8b902$3715d530$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > So. Anyone have a grey wall and a high speed duplexing > scanner? (And vast expanses of free disk...) HP apparently have one that's been running since V6.0: http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/ If you want earlier then the V5 stuff is available electronically on the CONOLD CDs, mostly in BookReader format (I expect that there's a converter/reader kicking around by now). V4 and earlier will indeed need a scanner. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: 17/05/2008 18:26 From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun May 18 11:19:46 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:19:46 -0400 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <004c01c8b902$3715d530$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <325460.56745.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <004c01c8b902$3715d530$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: yeah, I can't stand HTML index type documents, drives me crazy. and if there's v5 that would be the best one I'd want. not sure what my near-grey wall has. so where can I find this CONOLD CD? Dan. ---------------------------------------- > From: arcarlini at iee.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:14:07 +0100 > Subject: RE: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? > > Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> So. Anyone have a grey wall and a high speed duplexing >> scanner? (And vast expanses of free disk...) > > > HP apparently have one that's been running since V6.0: > http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/ > > If you want earlier then the V5 stuff is available electronically > on the CONOLD CDs, mostly in BookReader format (I expect that > there's a converter/reader kicking around by now). > > V4 and earlier will indeed need a scanner. > > Antonio > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1452 - Release Date: > 17/05/2008 18:26 > > > _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 18 11:28:34 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:28:34 -0700 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <325460.56745.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <325460.56745.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:54 AM -0700 5/18/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >--- Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> I was wondering if anyone had scans or PDF's of the >> DEC VMS "grey wall" ? >> >> ie: all the VMS big binders >> >> Do such documents exist? > >I don't know if they exist, but they would be very, >very useful if they did. I don't have a grey wall, but >I would love to - and PDF's are probably the only way >I'll find one. If you are looking for one, just keep your eye out. It took a few months, but thanks to another list member I was able to get one for the CBHRC a few months back (big surprise the Computer History section is highly DEC oriented). Keep in mind if you get one the big expense will be shipping. It is probably easier to get a V5, or even V4 set than V6, V7, or V8 hard-copy doc's. I was able to get a V6 set several years ago off eBay for little more than the cost of shipping (at some point it will be donated to CBHRC). Back in the V7.2 days I bought a set of the base doc's from Compaq (at that time around 2 feet of doc's). Since then I've made due with bookreader and HTML doc's (I prefer HTML but some of the tools I use only have electronic doc's in bookreader format). I keep both formats on my private VMS webserver, and I can read them that way. When did DEC start distributing doc's in bookreader format? I'm guessing it was with either V5 or V6, but I don't have any OS CD sets that old other than the V1 Hobbyist CD. I'm pretty sure CD's exist for V5.5-2, but all I have for original media are tapes. I suspect most people simply go to the HP website and read the doc's online, or off the doc CD's included as part of the distributions. I suspect very few of us are running anything older than V7.2. I have one 5.5-2 system that runs 24x7 except when it's too hot, it is a VAXstation 4000/vlc that acts as my DECnet router. My main VMS system is an XP1000/667 running V8.3. Now what I need is a set of V8.3 Documentation CD's (the App and OS CD's would be nice as well). I also wouldn't mind a set of the V5.5 doc's in bookreader format. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From evan at snarc.net Sun May 18 11:50:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:50:00 -0400 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? Message-ID: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> >>> with DEC being gone, etc? Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my experience is a very friendly company to historians and hobbyists. From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun May 18 11:54:02 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:54:02 -0400 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <325460.56745.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a near-complete binder set, I think it's v5.3, I'll have to check. as for the CD, for personal use, a copy would do (for v5), that's what I'd be looking for, guess it's bookreader format. I'd work out a method to convert it and make PDF's. I only have one working vaxstation right now, and could use another one as a backup. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:28:34 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? > > At 8:54 AM -0700 5/18/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>--- Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> I was wondering if anyone had scans or PDF's of the >>> DEC VMS "grey wall" ? >>> >>> ie: all the VMS big binders >>> >>> Do such documents exist? >> >>I don't know if they exist, but they would be very, >>very useful if they did. I don't have a grey wall, but >>I would love to - and PDF's are probably the only way >>I'll find one. > > If you are looking for one, just keep your eye out. It took a few > months, but thanks to another list member I was able to get one for > the CBHRC a few months back (big surprise the Computer History > section is highly DEC oriented). Keep in mind if you get one the big > expense will be shipping. It is probably easier to get a V5, or even > V4 set than V6, V7, or V8 hard-copy doc's. I was able to get a V6 > set several years ago off eBay for little more than the cost of > shipping (at some point it will be donated to CBHRC). Back in the > V7.2 days I bought a set of the base doc's from Compaq (at that time > around 2 feet of doc's). Since then I've made due with bookreader > and HTML doc's (I prefer HTML but some of the tools I use only have > electronic doc's in bookreader format). I keep both formats on my > private VMS webserver, and I can read them that way. When did DEC > start distributing doc's in bookreader format? I'm guessing it was > with either V5 or V6, but I don't have any OS CD sets that old other > than the V1 Hobbyist CD. I'm pretty sure CD's exist for V5.5-2, but > all I have for original media are tapes. > > I suspect most people simply go to the HP website and read the doc's > online, or off the doc CD's included as part of the distributions. I > suspect very few of us are running anything older than V7.2. I have > one 5.5-2 system that runs 24x7 except when it's too hot, it is a > VAXstation 4000/vlc that acts as my DECnet router. My main VMS > system is an XP1000/667 running V8.3. > > Now what I need is a set of V8.3 Documentation CD's (the App and OS > CD's would be nice as well). I also wouldn't mind a set of the V5.5 > doc's in bookreader format. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun May 18 11:55:03 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:55:03 -0400 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain by now. whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up world? speaking of DEC stuff, anyone got the PAKGEN info? ugh. ---------------------------------------- > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: evan at snarc.net > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:50:00 -0400 > Subject: Re: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? > >>>> with DEC being gone, etc? > > Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my experience is a very friendly company to historians and hobbyists. > _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 18 12:11:47 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200805181713.NAA11869@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > copyrights dont last forever. No, but in the USA, they might as well, thanks *cough* *spit* to Disney. (I've actually heard the recurring copyright extensions called the "Disney clause".) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 18 12:31:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:31:45 -0700 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805181701.m4IH05c1064299@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805181701.m4IH05c1064299@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48300591.11827.7F15EFE@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:09:45 +0100 > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Aha, I disagree. You can't get at the innards of the 6120 at all, > because it's a chip. If you want to get at the innards of an emulator > then you can, although how accurately the emulator models the logic of > the -8 might be an issue (my emulator doesn't model it at all, but > largely does its own thing). I was going to reply along the same lines, but I felt it might not have convinced my audience. Back in the old days of 22Nice, we added an emulator feature that allowed a user to write his own port-mapping code and include it with each program, allowing each individual program to have its own simulated peripherals, if desired. This was no accident or a "feature for feature's sake". A customer was replacing a controller on a large piece of CNC machine tooling (they made trailers for large trucks). Communication with the machine was largely RS-232, so that was no problem with the PC, but the controller application directly manipulated a UARTs registers. We rolled an emulator overlay for the UART that functionally mapped the program's accesses to the PC's 8250-type UART. It worked right on the first try and the customer was happy for many years--and we changed not a byte of code in the original program, nor our basic product. That's the beauty of emulation--if the original box uses a bizarre interface or unobtainium chip, you can emulate it. MUCH easier than trying to do the same in hardware. Modern PCs tend to have sufficient excess horsepower that you can emulate just about any 80's era device without impacting performance. But, as I've said, I felt that I wasn't going to sway the hard-bitten hardware folks. As you pointed out, the line between hardware and software is getting very blurry indeed. Cheap, fast, microcontrollers now give a new spin to tasks that would have normally been accomplished with a pile of discrete logic and can now be done with little more than software. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 12:35:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 18:35:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: <482EE503.7020204@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at May 17, 8 03:00:35 pm Message-ID: > > I'll put my name down as interested, please! > > I have a Tek 4052, which I believe has a compatible printer port. (I > can't remember whether the 4006 also does.) My printer (4631? 4641? I think they both do. From what I remember, the printer port interfaces to the CRT flood guns, and essentially reads out the storage target of said CRT. Almost all old Tekky storage terminals, etc have the port > Whatever) doesn't work, but I don't want to dismantle it for the Wht;s wrong with it? Just old paper (it was a light-sensitive paper running over a 1-line CRT IIRC) or something more interesting? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 18 13:12:15 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP (Was: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20080518110927.E44950@shell.lmi.net> > >>> with DEC being gone, etc? > Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my experience is a > very friendly company to historians and hobbyists. Often. But there exist some execs in HP who adamently refuse to ever cooperate with anybody who is "working out of a garage". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 18 13:14:49 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20080518111309.G44950@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 May 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain > by now. Nope. I am not dead yet. > whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up world? abuse of it led to draconian over-reaction From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 18 13:16:59 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:16:59 -0400 Subject: HP (Was: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <20080518110927.E44950@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <20080518110927.E44950@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6B9D3F79-305F-4214-9171-B209CBE7E358@neurotica.com> On May 18, 2008, at 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> with DEC being gone, etc? >> Gone? Not quite. HP owns all the rights. But HP in my >> experience is a >> very friendly company to historians and hobbyists. > > Often. > But there exist some execs in HP who adamently refuse to ever > cooperate > with anybody who is "working out of a garage". Pretty ironic, given how HP (and most other companies) got their start. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 18 13:17:22 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:17:22 -0600 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 18 May 2008 11:49:28 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dan Gahlinger writes: > I was wondering if anyone had scans or PDF's of the DEC VMS "grey wall" ? If there is something specific you're looking for I can check my docs. I bought a complete set off ebay, although the binders were orange not grey. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 18 13:18:49 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:18:49 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 18 May 2008 18:35:25 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Almost all old Tekky storage terminals, etc have the port Not really. The 405x models have the port, but for earlier terminals you had to have the "-1" model to have the printer support circuitry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 18 13:37:06 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tip: scanning large documents in sections and stitching together In-Reply-To: <482F0117.8040800@flippers.com> References: <47583.64.62.206.10.1210982144.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <482F0117.8040800@flippers.com> Message-ID: <60803.71.139.37.220.1211135826.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Note that for stitching scans, you want to configure hugin for an > "ideal camera". The more common panoramic settings should NOT be > used. > http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/scans/en.shtml John wrote: > Another very interesting stitching program (Autostitch - free!) that can > generate 360 degree panoramas was written at our locqal university Stitching together 360 degree panoramas involves transformations that you DON'T want for stitching together scans. Scans are made of portions of a 2D object all lying in the same plane. The only thing you do to stitch them together is rotate them so they overlap. (with perhaps a *very* small amount of resizing). If the program you suggest can be configured to do that, it might work as well as hugin. I haven't looked at the one you suggest, but most photo stitching programs are intended to be easy to use for panoramas and therefore don't give you the amount of control needed for the theoretically simpler problem of stitching scans. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 18 13:46:49 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan wrote: > copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain > by now. Sorry, Dan, but that's very nearly as wrong about copyright as it is possible to be. In the US, for all practical purposes, copyrights on anything created after 1922 do last forever. The official story is that they last for the life of the author plus 70 years [*], but in practice every few years Disney et al. get Congress to pass a new law to extend it further. There's also a ratcheting up affect. The copyright interest in the US say "we've got to catch up with the rest of the world", and increase the US copyright term beyond what some other country has. Then the corporations in that country tell their legislature that they have to "catch up" with the US, and they increase theirs beyond ours, and then... As you may be aware, there is very little computer software and documentation from 1922 and earlier that is now in the public domain. > whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up world? Fair use? Why should the copyright owners let us have fair use? That won't help their profits any. We only get fair use to the extent that Disney et al. haven't yet convinced Congress and the courts to take it away from us. Eric [*] For works of corporate authorship, the shorter of 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation. From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun May 18 13:54:10 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:54:10 -0400 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Of course your comments are all US-based. I'm in Canada, and thankfully things are still a bit different here. We're even allowed to copy things - as long as they're for personal use, that's a major difference. Hopefully, some day, govt's will realize making things too draconian will only make it worse and drive everyone underground. Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:46:49 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? > > Dan wrote: >> copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain >> by now. > > Sorry, Dan, but that's very nearly as wrong about copyright as it is > possible to be. > > In the US, for all practical purposes, copyrights on anything created after > 1922 do last forever. The official story is that they last for the life > of the author plus 70 years [*], but in practice every few years Disney > et al. get Congress to pass a new law to extend it further. > > There's also a ratcheting up affect. The copyright interest in the > US say "we've got to catch up with the rest of the world", and increase > the US copyright term beyond what some other country has. Then the > corporations in that country tell their legislature that they have to > "catch up" with the US, and they increase theirs beyond ours, and > then... > > As you may be aware, there is very little computer software and > documentation from 1922 and earlier that is now in the public > domain. > >> whatever happened to fair use in this screwed up world? > > Fair use? Why should the copyright owners let us have fair use? That > won't help their profits any. We only get fair use to the extent that > Disney et al. haven't yet convinced Congress and the courts to take it > away from us. > > Eric > > > [*] For works of corporate authorship, the shorter of 95 years from > publication or 120 years from creation. > _________________________________________________________________ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 18 12:24:09 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <482EF5ED.8080608@arachelian.com> References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> <482EF5ED.8080608@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200805181925.PAA12343@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted me >>> to name a massive security hole. > Depends on the ftp server you use, and how it's configured. chroot > is your friend here, though not your only friend. Agreed. I've run ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca for years, and haven't seen any problems I can attribute to its FTP daemon. >> The other problem with FTP for this sort of thing is that it often >> interacts badly with NAT and firewalling (at both ends of the >> connection). > Allowing for passive ftp is one way to fix this. Passive FTP doesn't actually _fix_ anything; it just papers over the symptom, and that only for cases where the NAT in question is fronting for the FTP client. NAT fronting for the FTP server similarly "compels" non-passive data connections. (Put NAT on each end, and FTP just plain doesn't work.) Like most cases where NAT interferes with something, my recommendation here is to get rid of the NAT. It breaks the fundamental assumptions underlying IP-based networking, and it's a tribute to the robustness of the protocols involved that breakage symptoms are as rare as they are. > However, there's nothing wrong with putting this stuff on a web > server instead, which makes life a lot easier for everything except > the "grab this entire directory" option - but for that, there's > always wget. wget doesn't help, really, because the problem is not the fetching; the problem is finding out what's in "this entire directory". HTTP is not intended as a general-purpose file transfer protocol, so it's no surprise it is a poor fit to the task. FTP, on the other hand, is designed as, well, a File Transfer Protocol, and it does it well. Of course, that's not to say that either can't be pressed into service in place of the other; my own FTP area is also served up via HTTP.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 18 14:40:57 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <47924.71.139.37.220.1211139657.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan wrote: > Of course your comments are all US-based. Which I explicitly stated. > I'm in Canada, and thankfully things are still a bit different here. Not that much. Slightly better in some ways, and slightly worse in others. The biggest difference is that AFAIK Canada doesn't (yet) have an equivalent of the US DMCA, though they keep trying. The term of copyright in Canada is the life of the author plus 50 years. That's not as long as the term of US copyrights, but it is still long enough that almost no computer software qualifies. > We're even allowed to copy things - as long as they're for personal use, > that's a major difference. Incorrect. There are limited "fair dealing" rights, roughly equivalent to the US "fair use" rights, but "personal use" is NOT sufficient to qualify. If Disney brings suit against you for making a copy of one of their films, and your defense is simply that the copy was only for personal use, Disney will prevail. It doesn't appear that the situation is likely to be any different for software, or for computer documentation. > Hopefully, some day, govt's will realize making things too draconian will > only make it worse and drive everyone underground. That would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. Legislators are beholden to their major campaign contributors, few of whom have any interest in seeing copyright restrictions loosened. Eric From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun May 18 14:43:02 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:43:02 -0400 Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: <200805181925.PAA12343@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> <482EF5ED.8080608@arachelian.com> <200805181925.PAA12343@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I've rarely had this problem or any issues with FTP. someone I know runs a server and is forced into using a specific server with a specific client and was having problems with their firewall. the client wouldn't work with passive mode, no matter what we did. I finally got it going by using active mode, but now that you mention this, I'm not sure that was a great thing to do. then again, when you're painted into a corner, your options are limited. the company I work for has a client who decided on some really pinheaded ideas, despite our best and loud protests, now pretty much anyone can access their entire network from the internet. oy vey ---------------------------------------- > From: mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:24:09 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs > >>>> FTP is pretty much the best example I can think of if you wanted me >>>> to name a massive security hole. >> Depends on the ftp server you use, and how it's configured. chroot >> is your friend here, though not your only friend. > > Agreed. I've run ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca for years, and haven't > seen any problems I can attribute to its FTP daemon. > >>> The other problem with FTP for this sort of thing is that it often >>> interacts badly with NAT and firewalling (at both ends of the >>> connection). >> Allowing for passive ftp is one way to fix this. > > Passive FTP doesn't actually _fix_ anything; it just papers over the > symptom, and that only for cases where the NAT in question is fronting > for the FTP client. NAT fronting for the FTP server similarly > "compels" non-passive data connections. (Put NAT on each end, and FTP > just plain doesn't work.) > > Like most cases where NAT interferes with something, my recommendation > here is to get rid of the NAT. It breaks the fundamental assumptions > underlying IP-based networking, and it's a tribute to the robustness of > the protocols involved that breakage symptoms are as rare as they are. > >> However, there's nothing wrong with putting this stuff on a web >> server instead, which makes life a lot easier for everything except >> the "grab this entire directory" option - but for that, there's >> always wget. > > wget doesn't help, really, because the problem is not the fetching; the > problem is finding out what's in "this entire directory". HTTP is not > intended as a general-purpose file transfer protocol, so it's no > surprise it is a poor fit to the task. FTP, on the other hand, is > designed as, well, a File Transfer Protocol, and it does it well. > > Of course, that's not to say that either can't be pressed into service > in place of the other; my own FTP area is also served up via HTTP.... > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From g-wright at att.net Sun May 18 14:55:19 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 19:55:19 +0000 Subject: TEK 4105 terminal, which keyboard was used (needed) Message-ID: <051820081955.19281.483089A70002A29D00004B5122230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I have one of these here with out a Keyboard. any one know which keyboards can be used on it with out seeing smoke. Has a DIN connector Of coarse I'm open to offers from any one that many have a keyboard also............. Thanks, Jerry From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 18 15:12:32 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs In-Reply-To: References: <482CB8DC.3050306@mdrconsult.com> <1210927809.11538.17.camel@elric> <482EF5ED.8080608@arachelian.com> <200805181925.PAA12343@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <54753.71.139.37.220.1211141552.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan wrote: > the company I work for has a client who decided on some really pinheaded > ideas, despite our best and loud protests, now pretty much anyone > can access their entire network from the internet. oy vey I think the best one can hope for in such a situation is that your employer has good documentation that it made specific recommendations to the client that were ignored, so that your employer has a good defense when the client sues. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 18 15:16:36 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <47924.71.139.37.220.1211139657.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <47924.71.139.37.220.1211139657.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080518131332.Q44950@shell.lmi.net> > Dan wrote: > > Of course your comments are all US-based. On Sun, 18 May 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > Which I explicitly stated. > > Dan wrote: > > I'm in Canada, and thankfully things are still a bit different here. and the original remark (without country stated) was about DEC's copyrights > > Hopefully, some day, govt's will realize making things too draconian will > > only make it worse and drive everyone underground. Surely, nobody expects the US guvmint to make such a realization? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 18 16:01:49 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:01:49 -0600 Subject: TEK 4105 terminal, which keyboard was used (needed) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 18 May 2008 19:55:19 -0000. <051820081955.19281.483089A70002A29D00004B5122230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: In article <051820081955.19281.483089A70002A29D00004B5122230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309 at att.net>, g-wright at att.net writes: > I have one of these here with out a Keyboard. any one know which keyboards > can be used on it with out seeing smoke. Has a DIN connector > > Of coarse I'm open to offers from any one that many have a keyboard also..... The keyboard that goes with mine is Tektronix part #119-2374-00. It has an octagonal direction pad that can be used like a mouse to position a cursor on the screen. It also has a 9-pin (DE-9 for you nitpickers) connector on the back of the keyboard labelled mouse. I'm not sure of the electrical interface for the mouse. I have another keyboard that has an identical connector, key labels and positioning, but without the mouse connector. It has part #119-1592-01. I bought these on ebay as spare keyboards, but now that I see that they have different part numbers, I'm not sure they're compatible, but it looks physically identical. There are some keyboards on ebay right now, just search for "tektronix keyboard" and you'll find some with the 9-pin DIN style connector. ebay item # 190174053775 is a 119-1592-01 style keyboard. The price is too high for my tastes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 18 17:50:52 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 23:50:52 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk> Ade Vickers wrote: > MOV format (4mb): http://www.solutionengineer.com/ozzie/occ1_prb.mov Something in the video generator circuit on the digital side by the looks of things. Probably pre-character-generator -- those characters look fine and they're in the right place, but they're the wrong characters. So that's anything pre-character-generator basically -- buffers, latches, RAM, not necessarily in that order. Point me to a PDF of the schematic and I'll see if my overworked brain can come up with any other ideas :) > Any ideas where to start looking? I have an oscilloscope (albeit I've > forgotten how to use it, and am not 100% sure where the probes are), and a > multimeter... beyond that, not a lot. Have a read through the Tektronix "ABCs of Oscilloscopes" guide - that's on somewhere (their search engine usually works fairly well, or try Google). That should be enough of a reminder of the terminology, and how to make the scope work. Now the things I'd try in order: Set the scope to 0.5V/div, AC coupled and connect it between +5V and ground. See if there's any significant noise on there. If there's around 0.1V or less of noise / pulsing on the power line, you should be fine. Any more than that and you want to check the power filtering. Check using various ground and +5V points -- this might expose a bad track or via. Does the keyboard work, or is the machine totally crashed after booting (assuming you leave the terminator where it is)? Does a CAT (or DIR, or whatever the relevant CP/M command is) show something similar to a directory list? Check the address lines for the display RAM. If it's DRAM you're pretty much screwed, but with SRAM you can see if the count is incrementing normally or if there's an output line stuck low. If the RAMs are socketed (and the same type), try swapping them around. If you know the main RAM is good, swap each VRAM chip with a main-RAM chip until either the main RAM test fails or the video stops glitching. This, of course, only works if the main and video RAMs are the same type. > Basically, everything works except for the shaky video. Sometimes you see a > whole page full of 1s, or 0s; essentially, it's all a bit random. Bad > connection somewhere, perhaps, or maybe a failing chip? A screen full of one character may well be a power-on test or something similar... If it's happening after power up then something is very badly wrong. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 18 18:07:59 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 00:07:59 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solution.engineers> <4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Something in the video generator circuit on the digital side by the > looks of things. Probably pre-character-generator -- those characters > look fine and they're in the right place, but they're the wrong > characters. So that's anything pre-character-generator basically -- > buffers, latches, RAM, not necessarily in that order. I've just seen the MPEG -- looks like what you're seeing is the counter (or a latch, flipflop or buffer) sticking. It's holding an address for a few characters instead of a single character period. If you run the video frame-by-frame, you see it displaying: Loading CP/M and HELP... which turns into LLLLLnnnnn////nd HHHHHH....... or something to that effect - the video isn't fantastically clear. So you want to look at: - counters - buffers / flipflops / latches - latch / enable logic for the above That's on top of checking the PSU as I mentioned in my last email. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sun May 18 19:48:22 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 01:48:22 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem In-Reply-To: <4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk> <4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <03b301c8b94a$0a87f5a0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've just seen the MPEG -- looks like what you're seeing is > the counter (or a latch, flipflop or buffer) sticking. It's > holding an address for a few characters instead of a single > character period. > > If you run the video frame-by-frame, you see it displaying: > > Loading CP/M and HELP... > > which turns into > > LLLLLnnnnn////nd HHHHHH....... > > or something to that effect - the video isn't fantastically clear. Excellent spot, thanks. Apologies about the poor video - it was taken handheld using an elderly digital camera (Olympus UZ-2100 - in about 2 years time, it'll qualify as a classic for this list!). > > So you want to look at: > - counters > - buffers / flipflops / latches > - latch / enable logic for the above > > That's on top of checking the PSU as I mentioned in my last email. I've almost ruled out the PSU, the +5v and +12v lines are very stable, even under load (booting). I've also got the schematics (thanks to a link found by Roy Tellason), so I can probably find the duff chip -- well, I can try at least. I've got the 'scope working too, but as it's not a storage scope, seeing logic waveforms is not easy (impossible, in fact). So... how do I find a sticky counter? Is it likely to be an on-chip fault, or a failed track? My guess is on-chip, given that the video is clear & stable when the machine is crashed. Also, for clarity: Underneath the video fault, the machine is performing perfectly. It only crashes when I pull the Ext Video buffer & plug it back in - which physically disconnects some of the video signals from the onboard monitor, and clearly does something electrical which causes the machine to freeze up. One other thing - all of the chips (bar 4) are soldered to the board. This isn't a big problem for me, I'm reasonably adept at soldering, even when I've got lots of legs to free up; but it will be time consuming :\ Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1453 - Release Date: 18/05/2008 09:31 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 18 07:50:29 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:50:29 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K120047IEC1C0C6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:09:45 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 16:25 -0400, Allison wrote: > >> Bob's SBC6120 is as close or better than a real 8e for playing with code. >> >> That s the point too. Emulation you just cant pay with wires or add >> a parallel port. > >Aha, I disagree. You can't get at the innards of the 6120 at all, >because it's a chip. If you want to get at the innards of an emulator >then you can, although how accurately the emulator models the logic of >the -8 might be an issue (my emulator doesn't model it at all, but >largely does its own thing). True, you can carry it with one hand and it does run os/8 rather than os/278. If I want to be in the innards of a CPU I hav e a real pdp-8 and a decent scope. I've yet to see a emulator that can let me see the r/m/w cycles of core on the scope. But I can add ports to a SB6120. If of course if you program a large CPLD or FPGA you can have your software verion of the chip and you can even get at the innards with your VHDL complier. No different from the 6120 as hardware but now you can play in software. Neither is wrong but if your designing a board that plug into a real PDP-8 and is software interactive then for all cases if (software emulation, parallel port kluge) sb6120, FPGA) our results will be "simulation" and at best does not have the feel, or actual dynamics of the electronic issues( termination, bus ringing, grounding and so on). >Adding a parallel port is easy - you've got one on your PC. Work out >what you want to talk to the parallel port, and graft on a bit of code >to do it. Dead easy. Sorry doesn't work when you need 12 bits, or Data break and the hardware is very code interactive. >Need more ports, or a smart-ish peripheral? Get one of those >microcontroller boards with a USB device port and a bunch of IO lines. >The Arduino Diecimila looks pretty good for this, although having more >than one UART would be nice. The UART talks to a generic USB-to-Serial >chip (FTDI, for those interested) and you've got an assortment of >digital IO, analogue input and PWM lines to play with, and a bunch of >timers and things. It presents to the PC as a serial port, and you >program it in C. I reckon with one of them and a bit of interfacing >hardware (level shifters and latches, mainly) I could drive most PDP-8 >peripherals (if I had any). If I wanted to build a PC for the task I'd use one. The original goal was to emulate or simulate in software the unique hardware for the pupose of writing new code that would run on the real (z80 powered) thing with that unique hardware. If I want to run an abstraction and I do on occasion then many of the sims are great for that. Most sims allow for good many of the available "peripherals" and thats fine if your running real hardware the same way or wishing you could. Allison From btt at hughes.net Sun May 18 11:21:50 2008 From: btt at hughes.net (Brian) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:21:50 -0400 Subject: Free (or price of shipping) Stuff -- Part 1 Message-ID: <7474882451464B53A07B03D66CB434E9@BrianPC> I would be inetersted in all the apple iic stuff, and the apple joystick a2m2012. I live in Ohio, 45107. Do you still have these items? Brian Ties From derschjo at msu.edu Sun May 18 14:21:15 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:21:15 -0700 Subject: CLAIMED! (Re: Any interest in TRS-80 DT-1 terminals?) In-Reply-To: <482F3638.7050705@msu.edu> References: <482F3638.7050705@msu.edu> Message-ID: <483081AB.202@msu.edu> The terminals have been claimed. Thanks! Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a pair of TRS-80 DT-1 terminals that I've had for awhile and > that I don't think I'm ever going to use. I believe they work but I > have not done much with them aside from powering them up. They come > with dust-covers! (fancy!) > > Free to whomever wants 'em. They're kinda large (about TRS-80 Model > III-sized) so I'd prefer not to ship, but if that's what it takes... > > If there's no interest I'll probably drop them off at RE-PC in > Tukwila, WA in a week or so, maybe they'll find a happy buyer for them > there :). > > Thanks, > Josh > > From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun May 18 15:44:42 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 21:44:42 +0100 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4830953A.1040305@axeside.co.uk> >> I have a Tek 4052, which I believe has a compatible printer port. (I >> can't remember whether the 4006 also does.) My printer (4631? 4641? > > I think they both do. From what I remember, the printer port interfaces > to the CRT flood guns, and essentially reads out the storage target of > said CRT. Almost all old Tekky storage terminals, etc have the port Presumably it does something clever with the write gun in order to scan it. Write at a marginal voltage and monitor current? >> Whatever) doesn't work, but I don't want to dismantle it for the > > Wht;s wrong with it? Just old paper (it was a light-sensitive paper > running over a 1-line CRT IIRC) or something more interesting? I can't remember, but I think the paper wasn't feeding, among other things. ISTR when I pressed the "Copy" key on the 4052, the 4052 hung and the printer smelt hot. I also STR I have your manual for it somewhere :-( Philip. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 18 17:32:59 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 18:32:59 -0400 Subject: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K13007EJ5AU70WN@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:31:45 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:09:45 +0100 >> From: Gordon JC Pearce > >> Aha, I disagree. You can't get at the innards of the 6120 at all, >> because it's a chip. If you want to get at the innards of an emulator >> then you can, although how accurately the emulator models the logic of >> the -8 might be an issue (my emulator doesn't model it at all, but >> largely does its own thing). > >I was going to reply along the same lines, but I felt it might not >have convinced my audience. Back in the old days of 22Nice, we added >an emulator feature that allowed a user to write his own port-mapping >code and include it with each program, allowing each individual >program to have its own simulated peripherals, if desired. > >This was no accident or a "feature for feature's sake". A customer >was replacing a controller on a large piece of CNC machine tooling >(they made trailers for large trucks). Communication with the >machine was largely RS-232, so that was no problem with the PC, but >the controller application directly manipulated a UARTs registers. >We rolled an emulator overlay for the UART that functionally mapped >the program's accesses to the PC's 8250-type UART. It worked right >on the first try and the customer was happy for many years--and we >changed not a byte of code in the original program, nor our basic >product. > >That's the beauty of emulation--if the original box uses a bizarre >interface or unobtainium chip, you can emulate it. MUCH easier than >trying to do the same in hardware. Modern PCs tend to have >sufficient excess horsepower that you can emulate just about any 80's >era device without impacting performance. That is the exact reverse case I was refering to. For that case and many others like it I agree heartily. One of the "sims" I use is VMware under Linux So I can run them crufy MS OSs without havignto invest hardware on a daily basis. Doesn't hurt that I can also use it run a sim in a sim like MyZ80 inside W98se on the fast Linux machine. >But, as I've said, I felt that I wasn't going to sway the hard-bitten >hardware folks. As you pointed out, the line between hardware and >software is getting very blurry indeed. Cheap, fast, >microcontrollers now give a new spin to tasks that would have >normally been accomplished with a pile of discrete logic and can now >be done with little more than software. It works for me where it fits. If I want Z80 hardware no amount fo sim will make me happy but at the same time I may use a sim to build code for that Z80. As I've done it that way and in reverse and also to solve the problem of hardware that is unobtaimium. Where it works, I want to emulate a PDP1, or replace a PDP-11. Where it doesn't work so well is when I want to run VMS on a MicroVAX with performance in the NVAX realm. Maybe time to chance the topic??? This is clearly outside the discussion of how to make a minimalist CP/M system ( maybe even SBC). Allison From ibgator56 at verizon.net Sun May 18 21:26:10 2008 From: ibgator56 at verizon.net (Robert Norton) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 22:26:10 -0400 Subject: Cracking open a Compudyne case Message-ID: <46545B1F8F8A47FF9439181FA33FABE1@RobertPC> Hello, I say this old post about your Compudyne case. Do you still have it? All the best, Robert From gordon.oliver at optusnet.com.au Sun May 18 22:57:18 2008 From: gordon.oliver at optusnet.com.au (Gordon Oliver) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:57:18 +1000 Subject: HP 4952A Software Message-ID: <000001c8b964$6fc9e670$4f5db350$@oliver@optusnet.com.au> Kenn, I saw you advice regarding the HO4952A software and the LIF floppy format and as a hp4952A owner, I'm wondering if you know anywhere I could get a copy of the utilities floppy? Gordon Oliver Australia From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 19 06:23:12 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 07:23:12 -0400 Subject: Support for RT-11 Message-ID: <48316320.1060701@compsys.to> An old client has requested help with hardware and software support for some very old PDP-11 systems running RT-11. The best solution may be to use E11 rather than fixing some of the old hardware. Another reason that using E11 would probably be the best solution is that there may be reports that take up to a day to produce using real DEC hardware. Since my estimate with E11 for a current 3 GHz CPU is about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93, these reports would take less than 30 minutes. An RT-11 license will also need to be purchased. Does anyone have an e-mail address for Mentec? I contacted John Wilson a few weeks ago, but have not had a response. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 19 07:47:44 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:47:44 -0400 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? Message-ID: <48313EB0020000370002BCD8@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Andrew wrote: > I am interested in PAL / GAL programming and would > like to buy a book on the subject. Does anyone have > any recommendation(s)? Alternatively, there may > be websites with PAL / GAL programming how to > guides. Those would be useful > too. I have a rough idea using PALASM but it has been > a long time since I have used anything like it. Since you mentioned it... and since this IS classiccmp... The first version of PALASM I used was back in 1984 or 1985, and it ran on a VAX and a PDP-11. If I recall correctly, it came as Fortran source code and was from MMI, the big seller (at the time) of PAL's. The MMI databooks of the era were very good at convincing old stuck-in-the-mud-types like me that PAL's were a huge improvement over discrete logic, showing how logic equations map into blowing diodes, and blowing diodes in a PAL results in exactly the function you wanted to begin with. If I google for pages with MMI, PALASM, and Fortran, I see several pages that would help you go this route. As a practical matter, for a modern board, you'd probably use gate arrays for all but the most straightforward decoding to do it really modern. Tim. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 19 08:27:51 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:27:51 +0000 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <48313EB0020000370002BCD8@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <48313EB0020000370002BCD8@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20080519132751.GB11756@usap.gov> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 08:47:44AM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Since you mentioned it... and since this IS classiccmp... > > The first version of PALASM I used was back in 1984 or 1985, > and it ran on a VAX and a PDP-11. If I recall correctly, it came as Fortran > source code and was from MMI, the big seller (at the time) > of PAL's. The MMI databooks of the era were very good at > convincing old stuck-in-the-mud-types like me that PAL's were > a huge improvement over discrete logic, showing how logic > equations map into blowing diodes, and blowing diodes > in a PAL results in exactly the function you wanted to begin with. I have similar experience. We had both the FORTRAN version of PALASM running under VMS 3.6, and I think one of our PAL burners, one with a stringy floppy, had something similar running on board (i.e., you could feed it PALASM source over its serial port, not just JEDEC files). About the only docs we had in 1984-1985 were MMI databooks and application notes (like how to build electronic dice, etc.) It was a long time before I started to understand what I was reading - I blew hundreds if not thousands of PALs before I ever had to fiddle with the equations. > As a practical matter, for a modern board, you'd probably > use gate arrays for all but the most straightforward decoding > to do it really modern. I still build a lot of hobby projects with GALs (like PALs, but with much more flexible input and output configurations) - I don't think I've built a Spare Time Gizmos product yet that didn't have at least one 16V8 or 22V10. Gate Arrays might be handy for larger projects, but you can still pack a *lot* into a 20 or 24-pin GAL. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-May-2008 at 13:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.7 F (-65.4 C) Windchill -119.8 F (-84.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.5 kts Grid 106 Barometer 667.7 mb (11096 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 19 08:49:34 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:49:34 -0500 Subject: Mac LC3 in Maine/North Carolina In-Reply-To: <200805161105.m4GB55m4039987@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805161105.m4GB55m4039987@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Mac collectors, I was contacted by Kathy or Rick, who are moving from Maine to North Carolina and would like to find a good home for their Macintosh LC III and printer. Included are: >Macintosh LC III >StyleWriter >MouseStick II > >I have the original system disks & manuals as well as the following >software/games: > >Stellar 7 >PGA Tour Golf >Word Muchers >Where in the World is Carmen San Diego >Kings Quest V >Casino Game Pack >Math Blaster > >Also have some user manuals: Norton Utilities, Mac for Dummies, SAM >User Manual, 1001 Hints/Tips for Macs They are willing to ship. They can be contacted at kreaton(at)roadrunner.com for a while, but that address will likely change (and it may take a few weeks for the new one to appear). If you can't contact them there, try me at mtapley(at)swri.edu and I'll do my best to forward the message. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 19 12:00:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 10:00:33 -0700 Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" was: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <200805190634.m4J6YmWm072526@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805190634.m4J6YmWm072526@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48314FC1.12412.2A3D3E7@cclist.sydex.com> Allison wrote: > Where it works, I want to emulate a PDP1, or replace a PDP-11. Where > it doesn't work so well is when I want to run VMS on a MicroVAX with > performance in the NVAX realm. As you stated, it depends upon what you want to do. 22Nice was written in response to those, who, back in 1986 still had x80 CP/M systems and were looking to migrate to the PC. It was the answer to the question "...But how do I get my old to work>?" The goal was not emulation of a Z80/8080 per se, but finding a way to make the transition to the MS-DOS world as seamless as possible. We didn't care about the Osborne/Kaypro/whatever experience or the CP/M experience, only how to get people going on a new platform. By and large, it worked pretty well, with no drivers, TSRs or knowledge about CP/M. You renamed your .COM files, ran GENCOM on them and you were off and running. The SUBMIT capability, for example, was deeemd superflous, as the MS-DOS BAT capability was better in just about every way and simple enough to adapt to. (The first versions of 22Nice ran on a Compupro 85/88 S-100 machine, but that's another story). 22Disk was written solely as a way to get files to 22Nice. We'd considered just making the package read-only, but "in for a penny, in for a pound" thinking produced that bit of creeping featurism. To a CP/M purist, this approach (not providing an isolated emulated Z80 that you could load CP/M into) was probably heresy, but it worked well enough and accomplished the goal. The rise of better PC software eventually relegated 22Nice to the back burner, as that was seen as the ultimate objective. I'd be lost without uC emulators today--they provide a convenient quick code check without the labor of trying to figure out what the heck is going on in that little block of plastic. But my reason for using an emulator there is very different from that of using 22Nice-- I'm not interested in getting rid of the uC, but getting *to* it. I'll use an emulator to satisfy my curiosity for hard-to-get old hardware. I've used the SIMH 1620 emulator to scratch an itch in my brain about some code I wrote 40+ years ago, but I would never confuse that with the actual experience of using a 1620 with the blinkenlights, parity checks, clackety console typewriter and glacially slow execution. Nor do I have the will or resources to resurrect or construct my own CADET. Nor do I want one in my office. Sometimes, I'll use an emulator to figure out how some old piece of software worked, such as WPS-I on an old DECStation. The emulator in this case is better than the real thing, because I can modify the emulator code to show me what's happening internally. This would be at least very difficult on the real hardware--even if I really had it at hand. This gets back to why I questioned the lack of diskette drives on a "real" Z80 design running CP/M. It seemed to me that if one is after an "experience" and is willing to go to considerable lengths to get it, that it should be as accurate and complete as possible. While 3D computer simulation of skydiving can be made to be very accurate, there's nothing like jumping out of a real aircraft for realism. Having noiseless, crashproof RAM-drives just wouldn't do it for me. It all depends upon what your objective is. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 19 12:18:55 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:18:55 -0600 Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" was: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <48314FC1.12412.2A3D3E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805190634.m4J6YmWm072526@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48314FC1.12412.2A3D3E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4831B67F.5040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Allison wrote: > > >> Where it works, I want to emulate a PDP1, or replace a PDP-11. Where >> it doesn't work so well is when I want to run VMS on a MicroVAX with >> performance in the NVAX realm. >> > > As you stated, it depends upon what you want to do. > > 22Nice was written in response to those, who, back in 1986 still had > x80 CP/M systems and were looking to migrate to the PC. It was the > answer to the question "...But how do I get my old application name> to work>?" The goal was not emulation of a Z80/8080 > per se, but finding a way to make the transition to the MS-DOS world > as seamless as possible. We didn't care about the > Osborne/Kaypro/whatever experience or the CP/M experience, only how > to get people going on a new platform. By and large, it worked > pretty well, with no drivers, TSRs or knowledge about CP/M. You > renamed your .COM files, ran GENCOM on them and you were off and > running. The SUBMIT capability, for example, was deeemd superflous, > as the MS-DOS BAT capability was better in just about every way and > simple enough to adapt to. (The first versions of 22Nice ran on a > Compupro 85/88 S-100 machine, but that's another story). > > 22Disk was written solely as a way to get files to 22Nice. We'd > considered just making the package read-only, but "in for a penny, in > for a pound" thinking produced that bit of creeping featurism. > > To a CP/M purist, this approach (not providing an isolated emulated > Z80 that you could load CP/M into) was probably heresy, but it worked > well enough and accomplished the goal. The rise of better PC > software eventually relegated 22Nice to the back burner, as that was > seen as the ultimate objective. > > I'd be lost without uC emulators today--they provide a convenient > quick code check without the labor of trying to figure out what the > heck is going on in that little block of plastic. But my reason for > using an emulator there is very different from that of using 22Nice-- > I'm not interested in getting rid of the uC, but getting *to* it. > > I'll use an emulator to satisfy my curiosity for hard-to-get old > hardware. I've used the SIMH 1620 emulator to scratch an itch in my > brain about some code I wrote 40+ years ago, but I would never > confuse that with the actual experience of using a 1620 with the > blinkenlights, parity checks, clackety console typewriter and > glacially slow execution. Nor do I have the will or resources to > resurrect or construct my own CADET. Nor do I want one in my office. > > Sometimes, I'll use an emulator to figure out how some old piece of > software worked, such as WPS-I on an old DECStation. The emulator in > this case is better than the real thing, because I can modify the > emulator code to show me what's happening internally. This would be > at least very difficult on the real hardware--even if I really had it > at hand. > > This gets back to why I questioned the lack of diskette drives on a > "real" Z80 design running CP/M. It seemed to me that if one is after > an "experience" and is willing to go to considerable lengths to get > it, that it should be as accurate and complete as possible. While 3D > computer simulation of skydiving can be made to be very accurate, > there's nothing like jumping out of a real aircraft for realism. > Having noiseless, crashproof RAM-drives just wouldn't do it for me > Nothing like having a sticky stepper motor on the A: drive. Hit the 8" floppy it seeks. If you hit it too hard, a lose board would reset the the computer. > It all depends upon what your objective is. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 19 12:35:14 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 10:35:14 -0700 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:27:51 +0000 > From: Ethan Dicks > I still build a lot of hobby projects with GALs (like PALs, but > with much more flexible input and output configurations) - I > don't think I've built a Spare Time Gizmos product yet that didn't > have at least one 16V8 or 22V10. Gate Arrays might be handy for > larger projects, but you can still pack a *lot* into a 20 or 24-pin > GAL. If someone were just starting out with GAL/PALs, wouldn't PEEL be the best choice rather than fuse-programmed devices? At least you'd get a second chance if you flubbed your first try--and they're basically the same packaging. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 19 12:40:13 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:40:13 -0600 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4831BB7D.10907@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If someone were just starting out with GAL/PALs, wouldn't PEEL be the > best choice rather than fuse-programmed devices? At least you'd get > a second chance if you flubbed your first try--and they're basically > the same packaging. > But the original PAL's were so simple, that the logic equations could almost be done by hand. > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 19 13:08:44 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:08:44 -0500 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: ... > If someone were just starting out with GAL/PALs, wouldn't PEEL be the > best choice rather than fuse-programmed devices? At least you'd get > a second chance if you flubbed your first try--and they're basically > the same packaging. 22V10's & 16V8's are electrically erasable and reprogrammable. retry as many times as you'd like. I'm sure there is some limit on the number of reprogram cycles, but it is bound to be far more than the number of insertion/removal cycles the pins would put up with. Picking up other pieces of this thread, I started using PALASM in 1985, and I was the one who ported the FORTRAN program to the BTI 8000 computer we were using. Saying it essentially works at the fuse level is only half the story. Yes, one can have very fine control of things, but PALASM got smarter as the years went by, and it could do logic minimization and mapping of state machines to logic just fine. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 19 13:30:11 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:30:11 -0500 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4831C733.5030907@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > ... >> If someone were just starting out with GAL/PALs, wouldn't PEEL be the >> best choice rather than fuse-programmed devices? At least you'd get a >> second chance if you flubbed your first try--and they're basically the >> same packaging. > > 22V10's & 16V8's are electrically erasable and reprogrammable. retry as > many times as you'd like. I'm sure there is some limit on the number of > reprogram cycles, but it is bound to be far more than the number of > insertion/removal cycles the pins would put up with. Clarifying a bit, since someone will nitpick me... I'm sure there are single use 220V10s around, but all the GAL22V10s and GAL16V8's I ever used were reprogrammable. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 19 13:50:31 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:50:31 -0600 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <4831C733.5030907@pacbell.net> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> <4831C733.5030907@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4831CBF7.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > > Clarifying a bit, since someone will nitpick me... I'm sure there are > single use 220V10s around, but all the GAL22V10s and GAL16V8's I ever > used were reprogrammable. > Are the 220V's the ones you program with line voltage?... :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 19 14:10:31 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:10:31 -0600 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <4831CBF7.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> <4831C733.5030907@pacbell.net> <4831CBF7.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4831D0A7.1080209@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> >> Clarifying a bit, since someone will nitpick me... I'm sure there are >> single use 220V10s around, but all the GAL22V10s and GAL16V8's I ever >> used were reprogrammable. >> > Are the 220V's the ones you program with line voltage?... :) > PS: THE 25120 WRITE ONLY MEMORY data sheet can be found here. http://www.national.com/rap/Story/WOMorigin.html From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 19 14:49:44 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:49:44 -0400 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? Message-ID: <29998.1211226584@mini> Hi I have hard copies of V4 and V5 RT-11 manuals. I'd like to keep the V5 manuals but I'd like to get rid of the V4 manuals. Have they all been scanned and are on line? I looked on manx and bitsavers and I found a few v4 manuals but not everything. Should I figure out what I have which is not on line and scan that? Or am I wasting my time? For instance, I just scanned (as a test of 2 sided) AA-5285F-TC, which is already online, but I can't find AA-K724A-TC (BASIC-11/RT-11 Installation and release notes, for V4 RT-11) so I assume that is not scanned. I just don't want to pitch these if they are not available (which is hard to believe, as I think what I have is very common) -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 15:02:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:02:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: <4830953A.1040305@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at May 18, 8 09:44:42 pm Message-ID: > > >> I have a Tek 4052, which I believe has a compatible printer port. (I > >> can't remember whether the 4006 also does.) My printer (4631? 4641? > > > > I think they both do. From what I remember, the printer port interfaces > > to the CRT flood guns, and essentially reads out the storage target of > > said CRT. Almost all old Tekky storage terminals, etc have the port > > Presumably it does something clever with the write gun in order to scan > it. Write at a marginal voltage and monitor current? I can't remember (and I really don't feel like looking anything up at the momnet :-(), but I thoguht it only interfaces to the flood guns. I seem to rememebr the interface board in oen of the terminals (presumably the -1 option that others have mentioend connected between the flood gun pins on the CRT and the normal connector for said pins. > > >> Whatever) doesn't work, but I don't want to dismantle it for the > > > > Wht;s wrong with it? Just old paper (it was a light-sensitive paper > > running over a 1-line CRT IIRC) or something more interesting? > > I can't remember, but I think the paper wasn't feeding, among other > things. ISTR when I pressed the "Copy" key on the 4052, the 4052 hung > and the printer smelt hot. IIRC, the paper is thermally developed, so 'smelling hot' might well be normal. But IIRC the paper has a very limited shelf life, and it's likely that yours is way past that now. Even if everything else works you might have problems... > > I also STR I have your manual for it somewhere :-( Actually _I_ borrowed it from a place I no longer have any contact with. I suspect they've long forgotten about it (I don't remember the being any 4631 around, all otehr old Tekky stuff was given to me, etc). -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 19 16:05:51 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:05:51 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 May 2008 21:02:45 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > >> I have a Tek 4052, which I believe has a compatible printer port. (I > > >> can't remember whether the 4006 also does.) My printer (4631? 4641? > > > > > > I think they both do. From what I remember, the printer port interfaces > > > to the CRT flood guns, and essentially reads out the storage target of > > > said CRT. Almost all old Tekky storage terminals, etc have the port > > > > Presumably it does something clever with the write gun in order to scan > > it. Write at a marginal voltage and monitor current? > > I can't remember (and I really don't feel like looking anything up at the > momnet :-(), but I thoguht it only interfaces to the flood guns. I seem > to rememebr the interface board in oen of the terminals (presumably the > -1 option that others have mentioend connected between the flood gun pins > on the CRT and the normal connector for said pins. The connections are spelled out in the service manual. IIRC, most of the additional circuitry is an amplifier that amplifies the sensed signal from the tube back to the printer. > IIRC, the paper is thermally developed, so 'smelling hot' might well be > normal. I used one in 1979-1980 time frame and I recall there being an odor to the normal print process. I don't know if its what you would call "smelling hot", though. > But IIRC the paper has a very limited shelf life, and it's likely that > yours is way past that now. Even if everything else works you might have > problems... Bob Rosenbloom stated that he got a print out of his with 20+ year old paper, with a lower contrast than normal. So I suppose like most perishable supplies it depends on how it was stored. Stored 20 years in a climate controlled environment and it still might have some life in it yet, although suboptimal contrast would be expected. I have one with some paper in it, but I haven't tried to print with it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 19 18:14:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:14:59 -0600 Subject: Do you have a Tektronix 4010? Want a screen capture for it? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 May 2008 15:05:51 -0600. Message-ID: The operation of the signalling for the 4014-1 is described on pages 5-37 of the service manual. I believe the signalling for the 4010-1 is identical. Page 5-1 of the service manual has the index to all the circuit descriptions in the manual. Relevant sections appear to be: Display Unit Circuitry Block Diagram, pgs 5-35 -- 5-37. TC-2 Block Diagram Description, Auto Make Copy Circuit, pg 5-58 Hard Copy Target Signal Amplifier Board, pg 5-85 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon May 19 18:23:31 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 23:23:31 +0000 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080519232331.GD22454@usap.gov> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:35:14AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:27:51 +0000 > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > I still build a lot of hobby projects with GALs (like PALs, but > > with much more flexible input and output configurations)... > > If someone were just starting out with GAL/PALs, wouldn't PEEL be the > best choice rather than fuse-programmed devices? At least you'd get > a second chance if you flubbed your first try--and they're basically > the same packaging. I didn't explicitly state it, but GALs are also electrically-erasable (as are PAL-CEs, another similar pin-compatible logic family). I've even found good deals on burned-once GALs... just erase them and go. In small quantities, I see 16V8s for around $1.00-$1.50 each all the time, and 22V10s for a bit more ($4.00-$5.00, typically). Sometimes you can get a good bargain on a tube, and I've even pulled parts from the occasional board that I've scrapped for components. GALs are frequently socketed, making recycling easy. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-May-2008 at 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.4 F (-65.2 C) Windchill -121.2 F (-85.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 76 Barometer 667.1 mb (11119 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 19 20:02:09 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? In-Reply-To: <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com> <4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <36153.64.62.206.10.1211245329.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > 22V10's & 16V8's are electrically erasable and reprogrammable. Careful there. That's true of the parts with the GAL or PALCE prefixes, but not necessarily with all 22V10 and 16V8 parts, especially if you find old stock. The original PAL16V8 and PAL22V10 definitely *were* one-time-programmable. Eric From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon May 19 21:40:17 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 23:40:17 -0300 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? References: <200805191700.m4JH053I077615@dewey.classiccmp.org><483157E2.22347.2C394D1@cclist.sydex.com><4831C22C.70406@pacbell.net> <36153.64.62.206.10.1211245329.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <065301c8ba23$52846850$02fea8c0@portajara> > Careful there. That's true of the parts with the GAL or PALCE prefixes, > but not necessarily with all 22V10 and 16V8 parts, especially if you > find old stock. The original PAL16V8 and PAL22V10 definitely *were* > one-time-programmable. They weren't. They still are. :o) AS In a very funny day :o) From derschjo at msu.edu Mon May 19 02:21:23 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 00:21:23 -0700 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? Message-ID: <48312A73.20203@msu.edu> Picked up an original PET 2001-8 awhile back that's been heavily (and I do mean heavily) modified at various points in its history by someone with very odd design aesthetics. (See pic at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hackedpet.jpg & http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hackedpet2.jpg). Various parts were hacked in and hot glued (!!) in place or just left to dangle. When I got it everything was loose inside. There's an Expandamem board and some homebrew job with some eproms and some hackery connected to the internal cassette port. There are various switches on the front and back that do who knows what. The keyboard & tape drive have been replaced with a different keyboard, alas. (I'll leave finding those two items for a later date...) And the power supply's capacitor has been replaced with some huge Sprague monstrosity larger than a pop can. Haven't even attempted to power it up since the power supply wiring's all hanging loose and taped together, but I'm afraid of that capacitor and I'd rather just return this thing to more or less "original spec" and remove all of this extra stuff. Anyone know what the original power supply capacitor was for this thing? I've found parts lists & schematics for the main PCB, video & voltage regulator but none of them appear to list this. (I'd also be interested in knowing the transformer specs & wiring, since I'm probably going to have to rewire that...) Thanks, Josh From jlobocki at gmail.com Mon May 19 07:50:44 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 07:50:44 -0500 Subject: Cracking open a Compudyne case In-Reply-To: <46545B1F8F8A47FF9439181FA33FABE1@RobertPC> References: <46545B1F8F8A47FF9439181FA33FABE1@RobertPC> Message-ID: hello, which compudyne case do you mean? i have had compudyne cases in the past, is it the beige one with the sloped front and the latches on the front side? On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Robert Norton wrote: > Hello, > > I say this old post about your Compudyne case. Do you still have it? > > All the best, > > Robert > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 19 16:57:26 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:57:26 -0400 Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" was: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design Message-ID: <0K14005K0YBIA7HF@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Emulation vs. "the real thing" was: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 10:00:33 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Allison wrote: > >> Where it works, I want to emulate a PDP1, or replace a PDP-11. Where >> it doesn't work so well is when I want to run VMS on a MicroVAX with >> performance in the NVAX realm. > >As you stated, it depends upon what you want to do. > >22Nice was written in response to those, who, back in 1986 still had >x80 CP/M systems and were looking to migrate to the PC. It was the >answer to the question "...But how do I get my old application name> to work>?" The goal was not emulation of a Z80/8080 >per se, but finding a way to make the transition to the MS-DOS world >as seamless as possible. We didn't care about the >Osborne/Kaypro/whatever experience or the CP/M experience, only how >to get people going on a new platform. By and large, it worked >pretty well, with no drivers, TSRs or knowledge about CP/M. You >renamed your .COM files, ran GENCOM on them and you were off and >running. The SUBMIT capability, for example, was deeemd superflous, >as the MS-DOS BAT capability was better in just about every way and >simple enough to adapt to. (The first versions of 22Nice ran on a >Compupro 85/88 S-100 machine, but that's another story). > >22Disk was written solely as a way to get files to 22Nice. We'd >considered just making the package read-only, but "in for a penny, in >for a pound" thinking produced that bit of creeping featurism. > >To a CP/M purist, this approach (not providing an isolated emulated >Z80 that you could load CP/M into) was probably heresy, but it worked >well enough and accomplished the goal. The rise of better PC >software eventually relegated 22Nice to the back burner, as that was >seen as the ultimate objective. Well not a purist. I've been using myz80 since around 94ish on PCs for appliactions coding and other stuff. Sicne then I've added Dave Dunfields Altair/Horizon Em,ulator that has a few things I use. Also 22nice as well. However I didnt' ened it to port old z80 apps to the PC I found enough PC stuff to do the same or better that I didn't need that. >I'd be lost without uC emulators today--they provide a convenient >quick code check without the labor of trying to figure out what the >heck is going on in that little block of plastic. But my reason for >using an emulator there is very different from that of using 22Nice-- >I'm not interested in getting rid of the uC, but getting *to* it. ;) Like Blackfin or PIC. >I'll use an emulator to satisfy my curiosity for hard-to-get old >hardware. I've used the SIMH 1620 emulator to scratch an itch in my >brain about some code I wrote 40+ years ago, but I would never >confuse that with the actual experience of using a 1620 with the >blinkenlights, parity checks, clackety console typewriter and >glacially slow execution. Nor do I have the will or resources to >resurrect or construct my own CADET. Nor do I want one in my office. ;) In somce ases MYz80 is far mroe capable or SIMH or any of the many others as I can besitting anywhere running the sim on a small laptop that I'd have any way rather than dragging my PX8 along as well. >Sometimes, I'll use an emulator to figure out how some old piece of >software worked, such as WPS-I on an old DECStation. The emulator in >this case is better than the real thing, because I can modify the >emulator code to show me what's happening internally. This would be >at least very difficult on the real hardware--even if I really had it >at hand. Yes, it's a debugger and tool. >This gets back to why I questioned the lack of diskette drives on a >"real" Z80 design running CP/M. It seemed to me that if one is after >an "experience" and is willing to go to considerable lengths to get >it, that it should be as accurate and complete as possible. While 3D >computer simulation of skydiving can be made to be very accurate, >there's nothing like jumping out of a real aircraft for realism. >Having noiseless, crashproof RAM-drives just wouldn't do it for me. ;) Having had noisy crash prone drives ( and still having many) if I want to build to explore some part/hack of CP/M it's usually not writing yafd (yet another floppy driver). CF allows me to build and pay attention to other things that might be more hardware and software intensive. Examples over the years is low DC power systems, page mappers and the memory management software. Both hard to do in a sim but the sim can help in creating the code. >It all depends upon what your objective is. It always do. ;) Allison >Cheers, >Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 19 19:28:15 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 20:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Atari 800 Corvus interface + software Message-ID: All, I'm interested in getting my hands on the subject hardware and software. I have some very rare and interesting Corvus items to offer in trade. Not into Corvus? I also have an extensive collection of Apple 2 software and hardware. If you can help, or know who can, please contact me privately. TIA, Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 19 19:30:34 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 20:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC VT-180 "Robin" Corvus interface + software Message-ID: All, Interested in finding the above item. I know they exist, but I have never encountered them in the wild. Have a nice VT-180 system waiting to go on the network and party like it's 1979 :-). I have an extensive collection of Corvus software, hardware and documentation and can offer interesting pieces in trade. Please contact me privately if you can help or know anyone who can. Steve -- From ray at arachelian.com Tue May 20 05:54:20 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 06:54:20 -0400 Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" was: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design In-Reply-To: <0K14005K0YBIA7HF@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K14005K0YBIA7HF@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4832ADDC.4000508@arachelian.com> Allison wrote: > ;) Having had noisy crash prone drives ( and still having many) > if I want to build to explore some part/hack of CP/M it's usually > not writing yafd (yet another floppy driver). CF allows me to > build and pay attention to other things that might be more hardware > and software intensive. Examples over the years is low DC power > systems, page mappers and the memory management software. Both > hard to do in a sim but the sim can help in creating the code. > > Besides, if you want noise, you could always add sounds. That's what I did with LisaEm. Whenever there's floppy reads, you hear the sounds of an actual 400K floppy drive spinning. I didn't add the sounds of the head seeks, mainly because they're inaudible except if you're really close to the drive, but certainly if you're going all out and emulating 5.25" or 8" floppy drives, where you can hear the head, you can always add those in too. Will cost you more in hardware as now you'll need a sound chip that's able to play back samples on your single board computer, but if you're willing to give up a parallel port, you could wire up a simple D/A converter via a resistor network. If you want more realism than that, you could always add some sort of optional failure mode where there's a 1/10000 chance of disk failure whenever you insert a disk, and have it wipe out an entire track or whatever, and make the appropriate noises. Wouldn't that be fun when you're trying do some work, or perhaps are trying to show how cool CP/M was to a group of kids you were trying to impress into looking at vintage hardware. :-) Even better, since you are on an emulator you could do something that was impossible - you could make a backup of the about-to-emulate-a-failure floppy for the user in the background, so once the fireworks are over, they can undo the damage. In real life, back in the day, you couldn't do that. Personally, that's one of the charms of emulators, you get away from the unreliability of the original hardware. (I'm not about to debate reliability of modern hardware, however, CF cards are certainly more robust than single floppies precisely because you can't harm them with a magnet, nor do they bend easily.) Sure, there are a lot of things in the experience you can't really emulate. These include the physical aspects of the hardware itself, you just can't touch the original machine in an emulator, nor its keyboard, nor feel the heat it gave off, nor the barely perceptible flicker, the curvature of the CRT, but sounds, failures, fonts, behavior can be easily emulated, if that's part of your goal. Most of the emulators I've seen don't care about those things, and they just barely give you the display output, and beeps, and not much more from the experience. Ok, sure, they emulate some devices too, but not the experience of actually using the original machine. I think the goal of most emulator writers, myself excluded, is a) to say they've managed to build an emulator - this feeds into the whole emu-scene thing, and b) to get it going for software compatibility. Few actually have the goal of allowing the end user to experience the original machine. I do care about those things, so I took the trouble to add in sounds, and even simulate the blueish tint of so called black and white CRT phosphor. I would have simulated the curvature of the CRT, only after doing some experiments, it was horribly ugly and slow that it wasn't worth it. There are a lot of things I've skipped over, for example, when printing, I do simulate the output of an ImageWriter and it does look like dot-matrix output. I would eventually add some sort of animation of an actual imagewriter printer spitting stuff out and having playing realistic sounds (based on the data printed), but haven't do so yet. Yes, if we had holodeck like techonology where you could touch and feel old hardware and take it apart and mess with it virtually, I'm sure I'd be the first in line to build emulators in that environment, but you work with what you have available. Some folks here are against emulators because they feel it takes away from the actual hardware. I disagree with that. Sure, if you're a vintage computing enthusiast, you want the real hardware, and you want it to work, but not everyone has the ability to keep big iron in their house, some even live in small apartments, and some of that hardware would cost a fortune in electricity to keep running - if you were to keep it running 24/7. I don't think these folks should be excluded from the fun and enjoyment of vintage computers just because they can't afford to obtain, maintain, repair, or store actual machines. While most of us would wish ebay prices weren't as insane as they are, they do tell an interesting truth: vintage hardware has a very finite supply. When there is a demand for it, the prices get insanely out of hand. Yes, there are crazy sellers out there selling machines for 10-100x what we think they should cost, however, what's crazy is that there are buyers at those prices, and that makes our hobby more expensive. Emulators are essentially free. While I do live in a house, I don't have the space to collect big iron. So I've artificially limited my collecting to mostly 8 bit home computers, and small workstations, and these live on shelving, most of the machines are plugged in and ready for me to work on whenever I want to. However, I do find myself firing up an emulator more often when one exists than the actual hardware. This is mostly so I don't unnecessarily wear it out old mechanical components such as floppy drives. As much as I hate to say it, eventually old machines will wear out and some of the custom parts will become unobtainable. In the Lisa, there are a lot of parts that can't be easily replaced. There are modern replacements for some of these, such as the X/Profile, or IDE:File, but for example the COP421 chip is really hard to get - the only source is from another Lisa I/O board, and if you've had the batteries in your Lisa leak all over your I/O board, this is likely one of the components that will fail. Yes, you can buy parts from VintageMicros, yes, you can get parts from another Lisa, for now. How about 5 years from now? 10? 20? 30? at what point will that last working Lisa fail and become irreparable? Replace Lisa with your specific favorite machine and reread this paragraph. I do have some, although limited electronics experience, so I can repair damage boards here and there, but I'm certainly not great at it, and I appreciate that this is a huge part of the enjoyment of old hardware. But, there's still a lot of enjoyment to be had from playing around with the software from these machine, and that's where emulators come in. So if you're just starting out, you could still experience a huge variety of vintage systems, at no cost, and no physical storage cost by downloading hundreds of emulators. Point in case, if you had the money, time and space, you could fill quite a large space with hundreds of arcade machines, repair the damaged ones, and clean up and restore them all, or for very little effort, you could download MAME, purchase some legal ROMs (or not) and perhaps for added realism build an arcade cabinet with real controls. Emulators also allow you to do something else too, they allow you to ask, "what if" - if you have the ability to add your own code in them. If you want to explore what might have been had a certain company not gone out of business, or if they had expanded on your favorite machine. You can add extra features to the machine that it never originally had. The simplest of these is unthrottling the CPU speed. But if you're so inclined, you can add color displays, or other hardware and explore it further provided you're willing to rewrite some of the underlying operating system, or you could even just look deep inside undocumented proprietary land and figure out how it actually works. This in itself is a hell of a lot of fun. (I prefer the term emulator over simulator. Simulator to me has a very specific meaning, and since emulators don't simulate the whole board at the transistor level, but rather emulate the behavior of the machine, to me, it's a better term.) From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue May 20 06:15:56 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:15:56 +0000 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In-Reply-To: <48312A73.20203@msu.edu> References: <48312A73.20203@msu.edu> Message-ID: <20080520111556.GD1028@usap.gov> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 12:21:23AM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked up an original PET 2001-8 awhile back that's been heavily (and I > do mean heavily) modified at various points in its history by someone > with very odd design aesthetics. (See pic at > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hackedpet.jpg & > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hackedpet2.jpg). That's one crowded PET. The memory board looks interesting - any idea what was meant to go in the cartridge slots? > Various parts were hacked in and hot glued (!!) in place or just left to > dangle. When I got it everything was loose inside. There's an > Expandamem board and some homebrew job with some eproms and some hackery > connected to the internal cassette port. The cassette ports were common to tap for +5V. > Anyone know what the original power supply capacitor was for this > thing? I've found parts lists & schematics for the main PCB, video & > voltage regulator but none of them appear to list this. (I'd also be > interested in knowing the transformer specs & wiring, since I'm probably > going to have to rewire that...) My PETs are at home, but there should be some info in the classiccmp archives about the transformer - I was asking about the amperages since I have a couple of bare PET boards with me that I plan to fire up. -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-May-2008 at 11:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -92.6 F (-69.2 C) Windchill -125.2 F (-87.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.3 kts Grid 64 Barometer 670.1 mb (11004 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue May 20 07:17:41 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 09:17:41 -0300 Subject: book on PAL/GAL programming? References: <48313EB0020000370002BCD8@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <20080519132751.GB11756@usap.gov> Message-ID: <005f01c8ba73$89f26a30$0102a8c0@portajara> > I still build a lot of hobby projects with GALs (like PALs, but > with much more flexible input and output configurations) - I > don't think I've built a Spare Time Gizmos product yet that didn't > have at least one 16V8 or 22V10. Gate Arrays might be handy for > larger projects, but you can still pack a *lot* into a 20 or 24-pin > GAL. An "easy route" into PAL/GALs would be nice for everyone. I still don't know where to start :o( From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue May 20 07:47:54 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:47:54 -0400 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? Message-ID: <4832903A020000370002BF25@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> > Have they all been scanned and are on line? Not scanned, but I have the original DEC-Document sources (like LaTeX) and resulting postscripts and PDF's for RT-11 V5.6 and V5.7 up, e.g.: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/rt56manuals/s1523_pro.pdf I'm similarly mystified by the previous post to this list looking for scanned VMS documentation... the original PDF's (not scanned but again through the DEC-Document->PS->PDF chain) are out there on the web already. Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 20 11:06:58 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 12:06:58 -0400 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? In-Reply-To: <4832903A020000370002BF25@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <4832903A020000370002BF25@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <13904.1211299618@mini> "Tim Shoppa" wrote: >> Have they all been scanned and are on line? > >Not scanned, but I have the original DEC-Document sources >(like LaTeX) and resulting postscripts and PDF's for RT-11 >V5.6 and V5.7 up, e.g.: > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/rt56manuals/s1523_pro.pdf > >I'm similarly mystified by the previous post to this list looking >for scanned VMS documentation... the original PDF's (not scanned >but again through the DEC-Document->PS->PDF chain) are out >there on the web already. I tend to look on bitsavers as the definitive source. Should they be mirrored there? I guess it would be good if there were some way to find all the places manual pdf's are. Also, I was talking about V4 RT-11 docs also - do you have sources for those also? (it's very cool that you have the sources!) -brad From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 20 11:26:49 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:26:49 -0600 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT-180 "Robin" Corvus interface + software In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 May 2008 20:30:34 -0400. Message-ID: I have a VT-180, but I have no idea what a "Corvus interface" is, so I'll ask the obvious question. What is it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 20 11:28:11 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:28:11 -0600 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 May 2008 11:15:56 -0000. <20080520111556.GD1028@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20080520111556.GD1028 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > The memory board looks interesting - any idea what was meant to go > in the cartridge slots? I wonder if it isn't a memory board scavenged out of some other piece of hardware and simply hacked to appear as more memory in the PET? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 20 11:30:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:30:27 -0600 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 May 2008 08:47:54 -0400. <4832903A020000370002BF25@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: In article <4832903A020000370002BF25 at gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com>, "Tim Shoppa" writes: > > Have they all been scanned and are on line? > > Not scanned, but I have the original DEC-Document sources > (like LaTeX) and resulting postscripts and PDF's for RT-11 > V5.6 and V5.7 up, e.g.: > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/rt56manuals/s1523_pro.pdf I get "unable to connect to remote host" when I try this URL. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue May 20 11:38:26 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:38:26 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress.... In-Reply-To: <4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk> <4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <019e01c8ba97$eddad9f0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Hi again folks, Well, following my struggles to discover what's wrong with Ozzie, I booted today & discovered that, whilst the machine is drawing stuff on the screen, it's nearly readable. After much trial & error, I further discovered (on a 2nd disk) a program called memtest. Running this has revealed a bad block of memory, between 4081 and 64C1 (always a variation on xx81 and xxC1). Interestingly, the screen is remarkably stable while this test is running. Now... the RAM is physically arranged as a 4x8 array (according to the tech manual); so how can I tell which chip is supposed to look after addresses 4081 through to 64C1? I am now assuming that this bad chip is, somehow, interfering with the video latch/counter, hence the crazy video. Any more ideas? All gratefully received. Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: 19/05/2008 17:04 From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 20 12:22:15 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:22:15 -0400 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? Message-ID: <01C8BA7C.A5A19400@mandr71> ----------Original Message: Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 00:21:23 -0700 From: Josh Dersch Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? Picked up an original PET 2001-8 awhile back that's been heavily (and I do mean heavily) modified at various points in its history by someone with very odd design aesthetics. (See pic at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hackedpet.jpg & http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hackedpet2.jpg). Various parts were hacked in and hot glued (!!) in place or just left to dangle. When I got it everything was loose inside. There's an Expandamem board and some homebrew job with some eproms and some hackery connected to the internal cassette port. There are various switches on the front and back that do who knows what. The keyboard & tape drive have been replaced with a different keyboard, alas. (I'll leave finding those two items for a later date...) And the power supply's capacitor has been replaced with some huge Sprague monstrosity larger than a pop can. Haven't even attempted to power it up since the power supply wiring's all hanging loose and taped together, but I'm afraid of that capacitor and I'd rather just return this thing to more or less "original spec" and remove all of this extra stuff. Anyone know what the original power supply capacitor was for this thing? I've found parts lists & schematics for the main PCB, video & voltage regulator but none of them appear to list this. (I'd also be interested in knowing the transformer specs & wiring, since I'm probably going to have to rewire that...) Thanks, Josh ----------Reply: Well, if it were mine I'd clean it up and figure out what's what and how to use it instead of returning it to the boring "original" spec. Don't know why you need to replace the cap or rewire the transformer, but FWIW the original cap is 23,000 at 15; presumably it was increased to deal with the increased current required by the extra boards. Don't know specs for the transformer but it and the wiring look stock as far as I can see aside from being heavier than the original so I don't see why you'd need the specs. FWIW, there should be 5 secondary terminals: 7 & 8 are the AC supply for the monitor, 5 is ground, and 4 & 6 are the two ends of the 8-0-8 secondary. The EPROMS may be interesting; there were a number of monitors, utilities etc. supplied in EPROMs, and some disk/tape software packages also used EPROMs for extra memory and copy protection; at least some of those switches will be for selecting the EPROM to use. Dump 'em if you can; they may be rare/useful. If the keyboard isn't an obvious hack, i.e. if it fits the case and has the PET graphics characters, it may be original; only the early models had the chiclet keys and integrated tape drive. mike m From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue May 20 12:34:24 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:34:24 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress 2.... In-Reply-To: <019e01c8ba97$eddad9f0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk><4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> <019e01c8ba97$eddad9f0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> OK, now the wobbly video fault's gone away - hurrah! Of course, this could be because the machine's been on for longer than it has been in years; perhaps it was a thermal issue. When powering off/on, I notice a little flicker of crazy-video now, then it settles again. Maybe I'll leave it switched off for 5 mins & see what happens. MEMTEST still reports the same memory errors, however, thus: ADDRESS: 4081 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 40C1 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 4181 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 41C1 BAD BITS: 08 etc., through to: ADDRESS: 6481 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 64C1 BAD BITS: 08 Memtest itself runs a number of different tests; it's currently crashing or resetting the machine at random intervals. Longest successful test lasted about 1/2hr (successful insofar as it didn't crash). Now running for 2-3 mins before crashing... Note: This is memtest only, I've not tried any other programs yet... Hey ho, more testing to go... If the video prb is thermal, I'm still guessing it's related to one of the mainboard chips, rather than the monitor itself (given that it will display random characters, rather than what I'd call analogue effects). Anyone got any clues as to which one? I'm also wondering if it's a RAM select chip, rather than the RAM itself? Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: 19/05/2008 17:04 From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 20 12:53:03 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:53:03 -0400 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? Message-ID: <01C8BA80.F47A5FE0@mandr71> ----------Original Message: Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:28:11 -0600 From: Richard Subject: Re: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In article <20080520111556.GD1028 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > The memory board looks interesting - any idea what was meant to go > in the cartridge slots? I wonder if it isn't a memory board scavenged out of some other piece of hardware and simply hacked to appear as more memory in the PET? -- ----------Reply: I think if that were the case, the interface to the PET expansion connector would be a lot messier than what looks like a straight-across ribbon cable with just a transition board to connect to the old-style edge connector, so it does look like it's specifically for the PET, presumably with optional different transition boards for the different PET connectors. An interesting board indeed; what could those slots be for? I don't think C64 carts would work very well in a PET... m From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 20 12:53:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:53:50 -0700 Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" In-Reply-To: <200805201608.m4KG8YfC092987@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805201608.m4KG8YfC092987@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4832ADBE.7226.7FAF363@cclist.sydex.com> > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:57:26 -0400 > From: Allison > ;) Like Blackfin or PIC. Yup. Nothing like downloading your code into a little 6-pin cockroach of a PIC only to find it totally unresponsive. Maybe there's a job description for "electronic psychic". "I've channeled your PIC and it says you forgot to set up the TRISIO register, you stupid idiot." :) Cheers, Chuck From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue May 20 13:40:09 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 20:40:09 +0200 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress 2.... In-Reply-To: <01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk><4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk><019e01c8ba97$eddad9f0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <09F33D65FE0B4D2BAF3C43FFFFF53CB1@xp1800> Ade, It could be 1 data output witch has a shortcut to VCC or ground, but also a databuffer with a bad driver. Best thing to do is getting your scope and measure all the data-lines before and after the databuffer. This should give you a clou of where to find the error. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ade Vickers Verzonden: dinsdag 20 mei 2008 19:34 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress 2.... OK, now the wobbly video fault's gone away - hurrah! Of course, this could be because the machine's been on for longer than it has been in years; perhaps it was a thermal issue. When powering off/on, I notice a little flicker of crazy-video now, then it settles again. Maybe I'll leave it switched off for 5 mins & see what happens. MEMTEST still reports the same memory errors, however, thus: ADDRESS: 4081 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 40C1 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 4181 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 41C1 BAD BITS: 08 etc., through to: ADDRESS: 6481 BAD BITS: 08 ADDRESS: 64C1 BAD BITS: 08 Memtest itself runs a number of different tests; it's currently crashing or resetting the machine at random intervals. Longest successful test lasted about 1/2hr (successful insofar as it didn't crash). Now running for 2-3 mins before crashing... Note: This is memtest only, I've not tried any other programs yet... Hey ho, more testing to go... If the video prb is thermal, I'm still guessing it's related to one of the mainboard chips, rather than the monitor itself (given that it will display random characters, rather than what I'd call analogue effects). Anyone got any clues as to which one? I'm also wondering if it's a RAM select chip, rather than the RAM itself? Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: 19/05/2008 17:04 From technobug at comcast.net Tue May 20 14:52:53 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 12:52:53 -0700 Subject: Pinout Wiki In-Reply-To: <200805201700.m4KH05A0093707@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805201700.m4KH05A0093707@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Just came across an interesting nascent site that should be of interest to the group: "AllPinouts is a Web-based free content project to collect and list all know pinouts." found at . CRC From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 20 15:19:27 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:19:27 -0500 Subject: Pinout Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <200805201700.m4KH05A0093707@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730805201319v73f0d368j5b535a9d0ef6acce@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:52 PM, CRC wrote: > Just came across an interesting nascent site that should be of interest to > the group: "AllPinouts is a Web-based free content project to collect and > list all know pinouts." found at . Seems quite populated already. Very cool! From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 20 16:44:23 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:44:23 -0500 Subject: Pinout Wiki In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805201319v73f0d368j5b535a9d0ef6acce@mail.gmail.com> References: <200805201700.m4KH05A0093707@dewey.classiccmp.org> <51ea77730805201319v73f0d368j5b535a9d0ef6acce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48334637.3010204@oldskool.org> Jason T wrote: > On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:52 PM, CRC wrote: >> Just came across an interesting nascent site that should be of interest to >> the group: "AllPinouts is a Web-based free content project to collect and >> list all know pinouts." found at . > > Seems quite populated already. Very cool! Probably because I recognize some of the graphics from other projects... I like one central place, but it would have been nice to credit where they came from. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 20 17:00:22 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" In-Reply-To: <4832ADBE.7226.7FAF363@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805201608.m4KG8YfC092987@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4832ADBE.7226.7FAF363@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <57589.64.62.206.10.1211320822.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Yup. Nothing like downloading your code into a little 6-pin > cockroach of a PIC only to find it totally unresponsive. Maybe > there's a job description for "electronic psychic". "I've channeled > your PIC and it says you forgot to set up the TRISIO register, you > stupid idiot." :) When people I know do development for the low pin count devices, they prototype using a part with a higher pin count, and debug using one or more of these techniques: 1) in-circuit-debug - two port pins, plus ground and MCLR (reset) are used with a Microchip ICD2. Limited usefulness for debugging things that have to occur in real time 2) serial I/O - hook up a PC acting as a dumb terminal, and spew debug messages to it. conceptually same as "printf debugging" 3) port flags - use one or more GPIO pins as flags to indicate on a scope or logic analyzer that some internal event has occurred, or that a particular place in the code has been reached 4) scope loops - same concept as #3, but specifically used as a trigger for a scope or logic analyzer for repetitive events, when it is desired to watch what is happening on external signals when the event occurs (before, during, or after) Although I occasionally do the "blind debugging" approach, that's certainly not my preferred method, and there's usually no reason why things have to be done that way. Eric From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 20 20:28:48 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:28:48 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Atari 800 Corvus interface + software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48337AD0.9090206@hawkmountain.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I'm interested in getting my hands on the subject hardware and > software. I have some very rare and interesting Corvus items to offer > in trade. I have the Corvus 5MB hard drive for Apple II. Not sure if Corvus used the same external drive and built different interfaces to the difference computers, or of the external hard drive was completely different. I have the external drive, two interface cards, the mirror module and the multiplexer module, the original manual and driver/software dikettes. I've not tested it in an Apple II beyond spinning up the HD (spins up and comes ready OK.. no indication of the 'smarts' of the corvus drive indicating any error anyway). -- Curt > > Not into Corvus? I also have an extensive collection of Apple 2 > software and hardware. If you can help, or know who can, please > contact me privately. > > > TIA, > > > Steve > > > From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 20 21:47:53 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 03:47:53 +0100 Subject: Free CBM PET 8296 + dual floppy drives, Wilts., England Message-ID: <575131af0805201947n682199e4sb292f8de8242d873@mail.gmail.com> A friend of mine - freewheelin at cix dot co dot uk - wants to dispose of an old PET: [[ I've got a Commodore PET 8296 (http://tinyurl.com/3totud) and separate dual disk drive (model 4040 - http://tinyurl.com/3k87vr), both non-working, which are gathering dust in a corner of my office - if he wants them. P&P might be rather enormous though, unless there's someone heading from Wiltshire (near Stonehenge) to Shropshire who can take them on-board? ]] Anyone interested? Free for the collection. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 20 23:31:27 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:31:27 -0700 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress 2.... In-Reply-To: <01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><4830B2CC.9070500@philpem.me.uk><4830B6CF.3020905@philpem.me.uk> <019e01c8ba97$eddad9f0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: Hi Swap some of the RAMs. If the bit moves, it is the RAM if it stays the same, it is the decode. It is most likely bad RAM. Dwight > From: javickers at solutionengineers.com > > OK, now the wobbly video fault's gone away - hurrah! Of course, this could > be because the machine's been on for longer than it has been in years; > perhaps it was a thermal issue. When powering off/on, I notice a little > flicker of crazy-video now, then it settles again. Maybe I'll leave it > switched off for 5 mins & see what happens. > > > MEMTEST still reports the same memory errors, however, thus: > > ADDRESS: 4081 BAD BITS: 08 > ADDRESS: 40C1 BAD BITS: 08 > ADDRESS: 4181 BAD BITS: 08 > ADDRESS: 41C1 BAD BITS: 08 > > etc., through to: > > ADDRESS: 6481 BAD BITS: 08 > ADDRESS: 64C1 BAD BITS: 08 > > > Memtest itself runs a number of different tests; it's currently crashing or > resetting the machine at random intervals. Longest successful test lasted > about 1/2hr (successful insofar as it didn't crash). Now running for 2-3 > mins before crashing... Note: This is memtest only, I've not tried any other > programs yet... > > Hey ho, more testing to go... > > If the video prb is thermal, I'm still guessing it's related to one of the > mainboard chips, rather than the monitor itself (given that it will display > random characters, rather than what I'd call analogue effects). Anyone got > any clues as to which one? I'm also wondering if it's a RAM select chip, > rather than the RAM itself? > > Cheers! > Ade. > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: 19/05/2008 > 17:04 > > > _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood From derschjo at msu.edu Tue May 20 13:27:17 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:27:17 -0700 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In-Reply-To: <01C8BA80.F47A5FE0@mandr71> References: <01C8BA80.F47A5FE0@mandr71> Message-ID: <48331805.5010103@msu.edu> M H Stein wrote: > ----------Original Message: > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:28:11 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? > > In article <20080520111556.GD1028 at usap.gov>, > Ethan Dicks writes: > > >> The memory board looks interesting - any idea what was meant to go >> in the cartridge slots? >> > > I wonder if it isn't a memory board scavenged out of some other piece > of hardware and simply hacked to appear as more memory in the PET? > It's labeled as a "Compu/Think Expandamem" which is listed as a " RAM Expansion w/KIM bus for original PET" at http://www.portcommodore.com/petperiph.php. I'm going to be holding onto that, probably hook it back up after I get the basic system working again. I've dumped the ROMS on the handbuilt expansion board. If you're interested in taking a look, see http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/pet. I've named them as the labels on the EPROMS indicate. I've glanced through them, there are no ASCII strings or anything to make them easy to identify. Haven't done a disassembly yet... Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Tue May 20 22:13:12 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 20:13:12 -0700 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In-Reply-To: <01C8BA7C.A5A19400@mandr71> References: <01C8BA7C.A5A19400@mandr71> Message-ID: <48339348.1090209@msu.edu> > ----------Reply: > > Well, if it were mine I'd clean it up and figure out what's what and how to use > it instead of returning it to the boring "original" spec. > I plan to use the Expandamem board (once I get the basic machine running) but the hacked up stuff is ugly (and falling apart -- hot glue doesn't work so well in the place of solder). The prototype board with the EPROMS is all wired together on the bottom and tons of them are dangling loose at this point :). It could be repaired, but I'll wait until I'm feeling really ambitious before I take that one on. > Don't know why you need to replace the cap or rewire the transformer, but > FWIW the original cap is 23,000 at 15; presumably it was increased to deal > with the increased current required by the extra boards. Don't know specs > for the transformer but it and the wiring look stock as far as I can see aside > from being heavier than the original so I don't see why you'd need the specs. > I mostly need to replace the capacitor because as it is, if I ever do find an original cassette drive for this thing, it won't fit with that huge thing in place :). That and I'm afraid of what a capacitor like that might do if it dries up/shorts out. The wiring needs to be redone in places because a significant portion of it was hot glued/electrical taped together (not entirely obvious from the photos) and it's since fallen apart. > FWIW, there should be 5 secondary terminals: 7 & 8 are the AC supply for > the monitor, 5 is ground, and 4 & 6 are the two ends of the 8-0-8 secondary. > Thanks for the info. > The EPROMS may be interesting; there were a number of monitors, utilities > etc. supplied in EPROMs, and some disk/tape software packages also used > EPROMs for extra memory and copy protection; at least some of those > switches will be for selecting the EPROM to use. Dump 'em if you can; > they may be rare/useful. > I've dumped them, see http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/pet/ if you're interested. > If the keyboard isn't an obvious hack, i.e. if it fits the case and has the PET > graphics characters, it may be original; only the early models had the chiclet > keys and integrated tape drive. > It's an obvious hack, though it's the one modification that's done fairly well. It's mounted on top of the case above the mounting holes for the original cassette drive & keyboard. Unfortunately someone spilled glue on it at some point :). Thanks again for the info... Josh > mike > > m > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 21 00:37:18 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 01:37:18 -0400 Subject: Serial-to-Ethernet Adaptor In-Reply-To: <5AB728B1-5E32-43CC-8090-53D4018E4B69@comcast.net> References: <5AB728B1-5E32-43CC-8090-53D4018E4B69@comcast.net> Message-ID: <170A83F3-DE24-4783-854F-9B95A594ECF5@neurotica.com> On May 15, 2008, at 12:27 PM, Claude R. Ceccon wrote: > I came across an application note and software on the Luminary > Micro site implementing subject > device. The application note is the last one on the App Note page > and the Software Update page references the app note. > > You can get a device with ethernet and three UARTS for a bit over US > $ 10 in singles - ARM Cortex processor. Philips makes neat stuff like the SC28L198, eight UARTs on a chip. I'd pair that up with a nice ARM7 chip and have some fun. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed May 21 00:58:37 2008 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:58:37 -0700 Subject: vintage computer sighting Message-ID: <4833579D.21913.D712FC9@brian.quarterbyte.com> We have a thread for sightings of vintage computers in film and TV right? I just spotted a nice IBM 360 installation in "The Girl Most Likely To...", a 1973 black comedy. Selectric console terminal, lots of 3420 tapes drives and a sorter painted blue. It's the sorter that has a tiny (and technically inaccurate, but who cares) role in the plot. It's a pretty fun movie, written by Joan Rivers, and there are a whole bunch of recognizable TV character actors of the era in there. Got it on NetFlix. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed May 21 07:42:58 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 12:42:58 +0000 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In-Reply-To: <48331805.5010103@msu.edu> References: <01C8BA80.F47A5FE0@mandr71> <48331805.5010103@msu.edu> Message-ID: <20080521124258.GA19737@usap.gov> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:27:17AM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > I've dumped the ROMS on the handbuilt expansion board. If you're > interested in taking a look, see > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/pet. I've named them as the labels > on the EPROMS indicate. I've glanced through them, there are no ASCII > strings or anything to make them easy to identify. Haven't done a > disassembly yet... I did a quick disassembly. I got pretty random stuff from A000.HEX, but the other two had reasonable contents. DOS.HEX is almost certainly some version of the "DOS Wedge". MCM-9000.HEX has reasonable code, but I only found contents up to 2K, but the code references constants up to 4K... either my S-record tool lost half the data, or, given the hex file size, half is missing. It ends like this... .$97e6 20 4c 98 jsr $984c .$97e9 85 fd sta $fd .$97eb 86 fe stx $fe .$97ed 20 5d 98 jsr $985d .$97f0 8d 92 02 sta $0292 .$97f3 8e 93 02 stx $0293 .$97f6 20 a4 98 jsr $98a4 .$97f9 20 60 98 jsr $9860 .$97fc 85 fb sta $fb .$97fe 86 fc stx $fc Between subroutines past $9800, and some tables referenced earlier, and a complete lack of a reasonable end of the code, I'd say that's only the half of it. It was common to stuff code in 2K or 4K chunks between $9000 and $BFFF... the hex files, though, seem to only describe 2K chunks. Are your ROMs all 2K and some haven't been copied yet? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-May-2008 at 12:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77.3 F (-60.7 C) Windchill -114.4 F (-81.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.3 kts Grid 27 Barometer 677.2 mb (10734 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed May 21 08:40:58 2008 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 13:40:58 +0000 Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week Message-ID: That part of the Corestore collection which remains in the UK is finally moving! Most will be put in a shipping container and taken to the USA, some will be remaining in the UK at a different location. But there may not be room for everything, so some items may need rescuing. The first item on the list for probable disposal is the Convex C220 supercomputer... I rescued it myself around 12 years ago, it's been untouched since then: http://www.corestore.org/convex.htm Complete, with manuals and software. If I'm honest I'm probably not going to have time or, especially, space for it, so first offer of a good home takes it. If no offers are received, it may sadly end up scrapped. If the will is there but time is a problem it can probably remain in Cambridge for a couple of weeks. RSVP by email, ASAP. Thanks! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 21 09:16:06 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 07:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <107390.23128.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> It would have to be on the wrong side of the pond... I hope someone gives it a good home. That's one awesome machine. If anyone happens to own a teleporter, and can move it to the USA, preferably to the northeast, say, around Albany NY, let me know :) -Ian --- Mike Ross wrote: > > That part of the Corestore collection which remains > in the UK is finally moving! > > Most will be put in a shipping container and taken > to the USA, some will be remaining in the UK at a > different location. But there may not be room for > everything, so some items may need rescuing. > > The first item on the list for probable disposal is > the Convex C220 supercomputer... I rescued it myself > around 12 years ago, it's been untouched since then: > http://www.corestore.org/convex.htm > > Complete, with manuals and software. If I'm honest > I'm probably not going to have time or, especially, > space for it, so first offer of a good home takes > it. If no offers are received, it may sadly end up > scrapped. If the will is there but time is a problem > it can probably remain in Cambridge for a couple of > weeks. RSVP by email, ASAP. > > Thanks! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > _________________________________________________________________ > Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family > Safety. > http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008 From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 21 10:30:47 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:30:47 -0400 Subject: Emulation vs. "the real thing" In-Reply-To: <57589.64.62.206.10.1211320822.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200805201608.m4KG8YfC092987@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4832ADBE.7226.7FAF363@cclist.sydex.com> <57589.64.62.206.10.1211320822.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <887.1211383847@mini> "Eric Smith" wrote: >Chuck wrote: >> Yup. Nothing like downloading your code into a little 6-pin >> cockroach of a PIC only to find it totally unresponsive. Maybe >> there's a job description for "electronic psychic". "I've channeled >> your PIC and it says you forgot to set up the TRISIO register, you >> stupid idiot." :) done that :-) >When people I know do development for the low pin count devices, they >prototype using a part with a higher pin count, and debug using one >or more of these techniques: >1) in-circuit-debug - two port pins, plus ground and MCLR (reset) are > used with a Microchip ICD2. Limited usefulness > for debugging things that have to occur in > real time > >2) serial I/O - hook up a PC acting as a dumb terminal, and spew > debug messages to it. conceptually same as "printf > debugging" > >3) port flags - use one or more GPIO pins as flags to indicate on > a scope or logic analyzer that some internal event > has occurred, or that a particular place in the > code has been reached > >4) scope loops - same concept as #3, but specifically used as a trigger > for a scope or logic analyzer for repetitive events, > when it is desired to watch what is happening on > external signals when the event occurs (before, > during, or after) In addition to the above, I try and run some form of the code in some form of a simulator first, preferably one to which I can attach code which acts sort of like the real hardware. I've done this with Virtex4/PPC & Altera/NIOS lately, as well as ARM, MIPS, PIC, etc... in the past. It can really save a lot of time. I did a pic project once with a cs8900 and wired it into the pic emulator and debugged bootp in simulation. it sure saved a lot of time. -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 21 13:24:51 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:24:51 -0700 Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week Message-ID: <483468F3.8050505@bitsavers.org> > Complete, with manuals and software If you do end up scrapping it, could you at least save the docs and software? From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 21 13:36:09 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 14:36:09 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 40 Message-ID: <01C8BB50.09BFC640@host-208-72-123-34.dyn.295.ca> -----------Original Message: Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 12:42:58 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? Between subroutines past $9800, and some tables referenced earlier, and a complete lack of a reasonable end of the code, I'd say that's only the half of it. It was common to stuff code in 2K or 4K chunks between $9000 and $BFFF... the hex files, though, seem to only describe 2K chunks. Are your ROMs all 2K and some haven't been copied yet? -ethan -----------------------Reply: Looks like there are only three, but it might be interesting to know what the other labels say (and confirm the EPROM sizes). Computhink also made other add-ons, including a disk drive IIRC, so those PCB slots are probably for things like the disk interface, etc. You might be able to track down someone through old archives who has (had) the manual for it. m m From adrian at adrianwise.co.uk Wed May 21 13:14:02 2008 From: adrian at adrianwise.co.uk (Adrian Wise) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 19:14:02 +0100 Subject: SN7523N datasheet Message-ID: <4834666A.2060604@adrianwise.co.uk> Does anyone have a datasheet for a Texas SN7523N? I have a datasheet for a Signetics SN7523 (dual core sense amp), and was expecting that the TI part would be equivalent, but it seems to behave differently. I'm trying to figure out if I have a bad part or my assumption that they're equivalent parts is mistaken. Adrian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 21 16:05:33 2008 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 22:05:33 +0100 Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002601c8bb86$699bd050$3cd370f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 21 May 2008 14:41 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week > > > That part of the Corestore collection which remains in the UK is finally > moving! > > Most will be put in a shipping container and taken to the USA, some will be > remaining in the UK at a different location. But there may not be room for > everything, so some items may need rescuing. > > The first item on the list for probable disposal is the Convex C220 > supercomputer... I rescued it myself around 12 years ago, it's been untouched > since then: http://www.corestore.org/convex.htm > > Complete, with manuals and software. If I'm honest I'm probably not going to > have time or, especially, space for it, so first offer of a good home takes > it. If no offers are received, it may sadly end up scrapped. If the will is > there but time is a problem it can probably remain in Cambridge for a couple > of weeks. RSVP by email, ASAP. > > Thanks! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > _________________________________________________________________ > Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. > http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Ref re > sh_family_safety_052008 Have you tried contacting the BCS Computer Conservation Society? I have forwarded your email to them just in case. Regards Rob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 21 16:08:55 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 14:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: <002601c8bb86$699bd050$3cd370f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <002601c8bb86$699bd050$3cd370f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2008, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Have you tried contacting the BCS Computer Conservation Society? I have > forwarded your email to them just in case. I forget if it's been mentioned here, but Slashdot had a story a few days ago about how Bletchley Park was having money troubles and is danger of closing... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 21 16:46:26 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 22:46:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <720774.67386.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Is that true? I hope not. If it is, is there any way of giving donations to Bletchley Park? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk David Griffith wrote: I forget if it's been mentioned here, but Slashdot had a story a few days ago about how Bletchley Park was having money troubles and is danger of closing... -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 21 17:24:28 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: <720774.67386.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <720774.67386.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2008, Andrew Burton wrote: > Is that true? I hope not. > > If it is, is there any way of giving donations to Bletchley Park? See http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/05/16/1225225.shtml -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 21 17:26:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: References: <720774.67386.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2008, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2008, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Is that true? I hope not. > > > > If it is, is there any way of giving donations to Bletchley Park? > > See http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/05/16/1225225.shtml Whoops. Here's a PDF on how to donate: http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/resources/file.rhtm/243447/gift+to+bp.pdf -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 21 18:10:56 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 19:10:56 -0400 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress 2.... In-Reply-To: References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <200805211910.56993.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 May 2008 00:31, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Swap some of the RAMs. If the bit moves, it is the RAM if it stays > the same, it is the decode. > It is most likely bad RAM. > Dwight Trouble is those chips aren't socketed, if I'm remembering right... > > From: javickers at solutionengineers.com > > > > OK, now the wobbly video fault's gone away - hurrah! Of course, this > > could be because the machine's been on for longer than it has been in > > years; perhaps it was a thermal issue. When powering off/on, I notice a > > little flicker of crazy-video now, then it settles again. Maybe I'll > > leave it switched off for 5 mins & see what happens. > > > > > > MEMTEST still reports the same memory errors, however, thus: > > > > ADDRESS: 4081 BAD BITS: 08 > > ADDRESS: 40C1 BAD BITS: 08 > > ADDRESS: 4181 BAD BITS: 08 > > ADDRESS: 41C1 BAD BITS: 08 > > > > etc., through to: > > > > ADDRESS: 6481 BAD BITS: 08 > > ADDRESS: 64C1 BAD BITS: 08 > > > > > > Memtest itself runs a number of different tests; it's currently crashing > > or resetting the machine at random intervals. Longest successful test > > lasted about 1/2hr (successful insofar as it didn't crash). Now running > > for 2-3 mins before crashing... Note: This is memtest only, I've not > > tried any other programs yet... > > > > Hey ho, more testing to go... > > > > If the video prb is thermal, I'm still guessing it's related to one of > > the mainboard chips, rather than the monitor itself (given that it will > > display random characters, rather than what I'd call analogue effects). > > Anyone got any clues as to which one? I'm also wondering if it's a RAM > > select chip, rather than the RAM itself? > > > > Cheers! > > Ade. > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: > > 19/05/2008 17:04 > > _________________________________________________________________ > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ > GreaterGood -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed May 21 18:26:17 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 19:26:17 -0400 Subject: PAGING: der Mouse Message-ID: <4834AF99.30200@nktelco.net> The email address that I have for you doesn't seem to be working. Please contact me directly if you would. -chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 21 18:46:39 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: buying an oscilloscope Message-ID: Does anyone here have any pointers on getting a decent used oscilloscope? The intended use is for fiddling with classic computers and assorted homebrewed projects (like synthesizers and geiger counters) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From steve at radiorobots.com Wed May 21 19:01:42 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 20:01:42 -0400 Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4834B7E6.6070203@radiorobots.com> Buy something analog made by Tektronix. Look for a 4XX model such as 455 or 465; approx 50 and 100 Mc BW. Enough for most vintage issues. Do not get a 475 or 485 as they have hybrid amps which fail occasionally and are expensive to replace. Also fine is 22xx such as 2245, 246, 2247. Similar but newer and with useful features related to waveform measurement. The above scopes are pleasant to use, reliable, and good at staying in cal if they have not been beaten or hacked. It's usual to see these for anywhere from $150-$300 depending on condition. GL Steve David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here have any pointers on getting a decent used oscilloscope? > The intended use is for fiddling with classic computers and assorted > homebrewed projects (like synthesizers and geiger counters) > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 21 19:19:27 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 21:19:27 -0300 Subject: Talking about UK. Was: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week References: Message-ID: <006101c8bba1$99a909a0$02fea8c0@portajara> Well, I'm a long time sinclair fan. I'll not tell a sad history here, but It has been a long time I've been looking for a nice (and cheap) +2/+2A or +3 sinclair spectrum. Maybe a good soul willing to part from one, which can recive payment thru paypal and send it to Brazil? :o) I'd love if it were a NTSC unit, but I can use a PAL unit too :o) Thanks Alexandre PS: My birthday will be on saturday, so please be nice with the price. And send me lots of 3" disks with the +3 hehehe From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 21 20:31:03 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 19:31:03 -0600 Subject: Talking about UK. Was: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: <006101c8bba1$99a909a0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <006101c8bba1$99a909a0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4834CCD7.7090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Well, I'm a long time sinclair fan. > > I'll not tell a sad history here, but It has been a long time I've > been looking for a nice (and cheap) +2/+2A or +3 sinclair spectrum. > Maybe a good soul willing to part from one, which can recive payment > thru paypal and send it to Brazil? :o) I'd love if it were a NTSC > unit, but I can use a PAL unit too :o) > > Thanks > Alexandre > > PS: My birthday will be on saturday, so please be nice with the > price. And send me lots of 3" disks with the +3 hehehe > Umm what ever happened to a cake with a girl popping out of it. :) Happy birthday anyhow. PS: I never knew any of the Sinclair computers used a floppy disk. Cassette or stingy floppies come to mind, after the membrane keyboards. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed May 21 20:58:27 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 22:58:27 -0300 Subject: Talking about UK. Was: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week References: <006101c8bba1$99a909a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <4834CCD7.7090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <007701c8bbaf$9c9cc5d0$02fea8c0@portajara> > Umm what ever happened to a cake with a girl popping out of it. :) Hey, I have a girlfriend, I don't think she would be amused with this cake :o) > Happy birthday anyhow. Thanks a lot! 34 years and still ticking! ;oD > PS: I never knew any of the Sinclair computers used a floppy disk. > Cassette or stingy floppies come to mind, after the membrane keyboards. OoOoOoh, you are missing something You can find all kinds of disk interfaces for Speccys. 5 1/4, 31/2 and gasp, 3"!!! You also have stringy floppies like the microdrive and the wafadrive. The spectrum +3 came from factory with a very nice 3" drive. Also, the +2 and +3 speccys (speccies?) have a very nice professional keyboard. Take a look at google, you're going to be surprised! :oD Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Looking for a +2 or +3 (preferably) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 21 21:24:21 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 20:24:21 -0600 Subject: Talking about UK. Was: Possible rescue - Cambridge, UK, early next week In-Reply-To: <007701c8bbaf$9c9cc5d0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <006101c8bba1$99a909a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <4834CCD7.7090002@jetnet.ab.ca> <007701c8bbaf$9c9cc5d0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4834D955.7080802@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Umm what ever happened to a cake with a girl popping out of it. :) > > Hey, I have a girlfriend, I don't think she would be amused with > this cake :o) Only if she has to bake it. :) [1] >> Happy birthday anyhow. > > Thanks a lot! 34 years and still ticking! ;oD A young spring chicken compared to the people that started with the valve computers here. >> PS: I never knew any of the Sinclair computers used a floppy disk. >> Cassette or stingy floppies come to mind, after the membrane keyboards. > > OoOoOoh, you are missing something Since I am in Canada I never found more about them than when they started to use the 68008 rather than a Z80. > > You can find all kinds of disk interfaces for Speccys. 5 1/4, 31/2 > and gasp, 3"!!! You also have stringy floppies like the microdrive and > the wafadrive. The spectrum +3 came from factory with a very nice 3" > drive. > > Also, the +2 and +3 speccys (speccies?) have a very nice > professional keyboard. Take a look at google, you're going to be > surprised! :oD > > Greetings from Brazil > Alexandre > Looking for a +2 or +3 (preferably) Oh wait make that a girl in a pinata. :) From magsales at nwlink.com Tue May 20 17:30:17 2008 From: magsales at nwlink.com (Pete Kinney) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:30:17 -0700 Subject: Rad 2.0 Message-ID: I am interested in your old RAD 2.0?s From derschjo at msu.edu Wed May 21 12:41:31 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:41:31 -0700 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? In-Reply-To: <20080521124258.GA19737@usap.gov> References: <01C8BA80.F47A5FE0@mandr71> <48331805.5010103@msu.edu> <20080521124258.GA19737@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48345ECB.8050609@msu.edu> > I did a quick disassembly. I got pretty random stuff from A000.HEX, > but the other two had reasonable contents. > > DOS.HEX is almost certainly some version of the "DOS Wedge". > > MCM-9000.HEX has reasonable code, but I only found contents > up to 2K, but the code references constants up to 4K... either > my S-record tool lost half the data, or, given the hex file > size, half is missing. > > It ends like this... > .$97e6 20 4c 98 jsr $984c > .$97e9 85 fd sta $fd > .$97eb 86 fe stx $fe > .$97ed 20 5d 98 jsr $985d > .$97f0 8d 92 02 sta $0292 > .$97f3 8e 93 02 stx $0293 > .$97f6 20 a4 98 jsr $98a4 > .$97f9 20 60 98 jsr $9860 > .$97fc 85 fb sta $fb > .$97fe 86 fc stx $fc > > Between subroutines past $9800, and some tables referenced > earlier, and a complete lack of a reasonable end of the code, > I'd say that's only the half of it. > > It was common to stuff code in 2K or 4K chunks between $9000 > and $BFFF... the hex files, though, seem to only describe > 2K chunks. Are your ROMs all 2K and some haven't been copied > yet? > > -ethan > > That's all of them unfortunately, they're all 2716s. There's 8 sockets on the board, but only three were populated when I got the machine. So I guess we may never know what manner of super-awesome stuff was on these things :). Thanks, Josh From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 19:21:55 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <4834B7E6.6070203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <377401.61404.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I know a guy in Staten Island who sells an odd assortment of (mostly Tek) scopes. He calibrates them himself. He's constantly getting out of the business, but hasn't yet failed to show up with a trunk load at the Trenton Computer Festival. When I get some extra cash methinks I'll drive up there and buy one myself. His prices are reasonable. If anyone wants his contact info, I'll provide it. Anyone have an opinion on the color crt digital scopes made by HP beginning in the very late 80's? Are they any more expensive or difficult to fix then an analog scope? I find it strange someone recommending analog specifically. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts on that. --- Steve Stutman wrote: > Buy something analog made by Tektronix. > > Look for a 4XX model such as 455 or 465; approx 50 > and 100 Mc BW. Enough > for most vintage issues. Do not get a 475 or 485 as > they have hybrid > amps which fail occasionally and are expensive to > replace. > > Also fine is 22xx such as 2245, 246, 2247. Similar > but newer and with > useful features related to waveform measurement. > > The above scopes are pleasant to use, reliable, and > good at staying in > cal if they have not been beaten or hacked. > > It's usual to see these for anywhere from $150-$300 > depending on condition. > > GL > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here have any pointers on getting a > decent used oscilloscope? > > The intended use is for fiddling with classic > computers and assorted > > homebrewed projects (like synthesizers and geiger > counters) > > > > > > From Saquinn624 at aol.com Wed May 21 20:45:42 2008 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 21:45:42 EDT Subject: Altos III terminal and more available, free stuff in Renton, WA Message-ID: If anyone's interested I have an Altos-III terminal with keyboard (slightly yellowed) and manual available. There's a fault in the PSU and it isn't bringing up the logic board power properly, and so far I haven't gotten around to messing with it. Free pickup as-is, Renton, WA. If you have something to trade you'd probably be able to persuade me to make fixing it a priority. Also I have a Diablo 620 daisy-wheel printer with multiple print wheels, spare ribbons, and manual. works, best offer accepted. Also in the free pile: HP AdvanceStack "Switching Hub" for 10BaseT (it's a hub, not a switch). Includes management module Cartridge for Canon LBP-SX printer engine (LaserJet II/many LaserWriter IIs), also a used-working fuser assembly for the SX engine Sun Type-4 keyboards (no cables) SBUS parallel cards CG6's a XENIX-compatible Pentium-233 machine (used to run XENIX at a dental office) a Sun Aurora-II chassis and PSU - put a fast 1/2 height CD-ROM in your SPARCstation! Xyplex MAXserver terminal server cards and baa-daa-bum a Xyplex X-25 bridge card! Infuriate yourself or buy for your closest enemies! Can even supply a MX3k or MX5k chassis for the above 2 things if you want. Sun 3/200 boardset (CPU and RAM, 24 or 32MB worth). Needs chassis and a PROM chip. Sun 501-1153 VME -> IPI-2 Sun VME "SCSI-II" (not that SCSI-II, it's SCSI-I) card in either a X/X60 carrier (no external port) or a carrier with an external DD50 SCSI-port. Sun Xylogics-450 Multibus SMD controller in a Sun VTM adaptor. Can be removed from the VTM as well. AT-101 keyboards, many of them. Possibly a RS/6000 3CT as well. It has GXT150M graphics, sound. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov Thu May 22 02:02:39 2008 From: Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov (Dicks, Ethan) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 19:02:39 +1200 Subject: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? References: <01C8BA80.F47A5FE0@mandr71> <48331805.5010103@msu.edu> <20080521124258.GA19737@usap.gov> <48345ECB.8050609@msu.edu> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Josh Dersch Sent: Thu 22-May-08 05:41 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Capacitor values for original PET power supply? >I wrote: >> I did a quick disassembly. I got pretty random stuff from A000.HEX, >> but the other two had reasonable contents. >> >> DOS.HEX is almost certainly some version of the "DOS Wedge". >> >> MCM-9000.HEX has reasonable code, but I only found contents >> up to 2K... Josh writes: > That's all of them unfortunately, they're all 2716s. There's 8 sockets > on the board, but only three were populated when I got the machine. So > I guess we may never know what manner of super-awesome stuff was on > these things :). That's unfortunate. I think the DOS Wedge is less than the 2K anyway, and the source for it is floating around somewhere (on ther CBM MACRO Assembler disk?), so it wouldn't be hard to reconstruct in any case. I really can't tell what's at $A000, but perhaps an analysis of the code from $9000 might reveal what it was part of. Back in the day, there were a number of BASIC extension ROMs, extended ML Monitor ROMs, tape accelerators (like The Rabbit), and wordprocessing subroutines/key dongle ROMs. Not an exhaustive list, but it's certainly a place to start when trying to guess what the ROM was doing. -ethan From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 22 03:01:15 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 09:01:15 +0100 Subject: Osbourne OCC1 problem - progress 2.... In-Reply-To: <200805211910.56993.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <045601c8b5f2$cc5429c0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><01b401c8ba9f$bf1bdda0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <200805211910.56993.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <026f01c8bbe2$029b14e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 21 May 2008 00:31, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Swap some of the RAMs. If the bit moves, it is the RAM if it stays > > the same, it is the decode. > > It is most likely bad RAM. > > Dwight > > Trouble is those chips aren't socketed, if I'm remembering right... You are remembering right :( I've ordered a bunch of sockets, when they (and a few other bits I need) arrive, I'll get them desoldered & socketed. This should be fun :\ Meanwhile: The zany-video problem returned the next day, fuelling my belief that it might be a thermal issue. However, a second prolonged memtest failed to "fix" it the way it did before. In fact, memtest carried on working (still reporting the same problem), wheras previously it crashed the machine at various points during proceedings. I've put it away for the time being - I need the bench space to work on some other machines... but Ozzie will be back... I'd like to thank everyone who's had some input into this thread - it's been very useful. Cheers! Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1459 - Release Date: 21/05/2008 17:34 From spedraja at gmail.com Thu May 22 04:09:17 2008 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 11:09:17 +0200 Subject: What's about Mike Umbricht h316 web page ? Message-ID: The subject of the message is explicit, I think. Someone knows if it's active or accesible yet ? Greetings Sergio From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 22 06:41:08 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Atari 800 Corvus interface + software In-Reply-To: <48337AD0.9090206@hawkmountain.net> References: <48337AD0.9090206@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2008, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I'm interested in getting my hands on the subject hardware and software. I >> have some very rare and interesting Corvus items to offer in trade. > I have the Corvus 5MB hard drive for Apple II. Not sure if Corvus used > the same external drive and built different interfaces to the difference > computers, or of the external hard drive was completely different. The Atari and Apple could both use the "flat cable" style of drive. The host interface and driver software is different, though. > I have the external drive, two interface cards, the mirror module and > the multiplexer module, the original manual and driver/software > dikettes. When you say mirror module, is this the standalone unit or the board the plugs inside the drive? If the latter, please contact me privately as I'm interested in having one of these. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 22 06:46:59 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC VT-180 "Robin" Corvus interface + software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2008, Richard wrote: > > I have a VT-180, but I have no idea what a "Corvus interface" is, so > I'll ask the obvious question. What is it? Corvus made a family of external hard drives using a common bus interface (quasi-network, actually). There was an interface board produced for the DEC VT-180 that, along with the driver software, permitted it to use files on attached drives. I have never seen one, but presume it's a small internal add-on (possibly piggy-back style) circuit board or a little external box. It would be labeled 'Corvus' or 'Corvus Systems, Inc.' Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 22 06:56:27 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair Message-ID: Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that point. It looks like the head-step pulses are generated in software by the onboard 6507 CPU. The four phases appear on PB2-5 of a 6532 IO interface and are presumably getting cycled in the correct sequence since the head moves quite smoothly until it hits the physical stop. I've already verified supply voltages and inspected the board closely for burn marks, broken traces, etc. and reseated all the socketed ICs. The unit is fitted with the 'US Doubler' enhancement, about which I know very little. Would appreciate any tips on troubleshooting. Steve -- From bwanyama at icipe.org Thu May 22 07:17:07 2008 From: bwanyama at icipe.org (Wanyama, Onesmus Kaye) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 15:17:07 +0300 Subject: Thurlby LA160 Logic analyser Message-ID: Hi Out there! Anybody got the software for comtrol of the Thurlby LA160 logic analyser? Please Please send me a copy. Wanyama, B.O.K. Nairobi, Kenya bwanyama at icipe.org From g-wright at att.net Sun May 25 18:30:55 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 23:30:55 +0000 Subject: Victor 9000 PC dos needed (2.11.xx) Message-ID: <052520082330.24105.4839F6AF0009A18300005E2922230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I have a working Victor (9000) PC here with a HD. But for reasons unknown , it does not having any normal DOS files other than what it takes to run the machine. It does have Wordstar and procom but no format or any other external files. I want to back up the Hard drive and make a bootable floppy. This system, I would guess, use special Version of Dos. I saw a thread here last year on these, did anyone get a boot disk going. I believe mine might also have memory problems. did they have test programs for these . Thanks, Jerry From rcini at optonline.net Mon May 26 10:34:06 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:34:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles Message-ID: All: I?m looking for the two following Dr. Dobb?s articles on the Mac: ::Jan 1985 "Fatten Your Mac" by Thomas Lafleur and Susan Raab ::Sep 1985 ?SCSI Your Mac, in MAC Toolbox? by John Bass relating to adding a home-brewed SCSI interface to the Mac 128/512. I have one of the DDJ article compilation CDs (Volume 11) but it only starts at 1988. I would be grateful if someone with access to these issues could make scans of them or point me to an on-line copy. Googling this morning didn?t produce much other than TeX indices. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Mon May 26 13:05:16 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 20:05:16 +0200 Subject: buying an oscilloscope Message-ID: <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c@webmail.izone.at> Hi first of all, I have one, you can get it, please let me know. Its a 100MHz, two channel scope with second timebase for magnifications, but?its analog not digital. For slow signals usually present in classical hardware, thats no problem. And you also could look at www.testequipmentcollection.com[1] I bought my 'new' one there. (350Mhz, Hybrid scope, 2 channels + 16 digital logic analyzer). I also collecting classic computers, take a look at www.tuko.at[2] --> Computermuseum. With best regards Gerhard Links: ------ [1] http://www.testequipmentcollection.com [2] http://www.tuko.at From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 26 14:43:01 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: iob6120 construction Message-ID: Is there someone here who has 1) sucessfully built an IOB6120 board for the SBC6120 and 2) would like to do it again? I have an IOB6120 kit that I'd like to finish, but after doing one of the harder surface-mount parts, I realize that I don't have the skills or tools to finish with the really hard parts. Is there someone who'd be interested in building my kit for me in exchange for goods or money? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon May 26 15:23:30 2008 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 15:23:30 -0500 Subject: test Message-ID: <000201c8bf6e$5d1a4690$176fa8c0@obie> can you hear me? From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 26 16:41:52 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 16:41:52 -0500 Subject: Free: SGI Pipeline newsletters Message-ID: <51ea77730805261441h6b95a2efyfdcaed3196b77fcc@mail.gmail.com> Dupes from a recent SGI motherlode I picked up. Take one, some or all, just pay shipping from 60074: May/June 94 Jan/Feb 95 Mar/Apr 96 May/Jun 96 Sep/Oct 96 Nov/Dec 96 Jul/Aug 97 Sep/Oct 97 Nov/Dec 97 Sep/Oct 98 -- j From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 26 16:41:52 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 16:41:52 -0500 Subject: Free: SGI Pipeline newsletters Message-ID: <51ea77730805261441h6b95a2efyfdcaed3196b77fcc@mail.gmail.com> Dupes from a recent SGI motherlode I picked up. Take one, some or all, just pay shipping from 60074: May/June 94 Jan/Feb 95 Mar/Apr 96 May/Jun 96 Sep/Oct 96 Nov/Dec 96 Jul/Aug 97 Sep/Oct 97 Nov/Dec 97 Sep/Oct 98 -- j From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 26 21:57:08 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 20:57:08 -0600 Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 26 May 2008 20:05:16 +0200. <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c@webmail.izone.at> Message-ID: In article <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c at webmail.izone.at>, DI Gerhard Kreuzer writes: > And you also could look at www.testequipmentcollection.com[1] I think you mean -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon May 26 22:11:29 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 23:11:29 -0400 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000201c8bf6e$5d1a4690$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <200805270311.m4R3BWia045472@keith.ezwind.net> After several days delay of silence from this list, the log jam has broken and your message has been heard here along with several others. Bob On Mon, 26 May 2008 15:23:30 -0500, Jack Rubin wrote: >can you hear me? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 26 22:42:29 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:42:29 -0600 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000201c8bf6e$5d1a4690$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000201c8bf6e$5d1a4690$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <483B8325.8030103@jetnet.ab.ca> Jack Rubin wrote: > can you hear me? > > Nnnn oooo IIIII ccaaannnn'tttt heeearrrr yoou, buuuttt hhhooooww dooo uuuuu lliikeeee mmiiii Textt vooicee synaaasizzzorr :) i From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 26 22:45:54 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:45:54 -0600 Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483B83F2.9040204@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I?m looking for the two following Dr. Dobb?s articles on the Mac: > > ::Jan 1985 "Fatten Your Mac" by Thomas Lafleur and Susan Raab > ::Sep 1985 ?SCSI Your Mac, in MAC Toolbox? by John Bass relating to > adding a home-brewed SCSI interface to the Mac 128/512. > > I think fatten your mac had you piggy back your 64K drams and bring out CS? to the address decoder. I still marvel at the price of a MAC and it had only 128K memory. > I have one of the DDJ article compilation CDs (Volume 11) but it only > starts at 1988. I would be grateful if someone with access to these issues > could make scans of them or point me to an on-line copy. Googling this > morning didn?t produce much other than TeX indices. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > From ragooman at comcast.net Mon May 26 22:52:48 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 23:52:48 -0400 Subject: In search of MM57109 by National Semi In-Reply-To: <38859.64.62.206.10.1210814328.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <482544F3.9050002@comcast.net> <49802.71.139.37.220.1210404148.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <482B80E7.8030406@comcast.net> <38859.64.62.206.10.1210814328.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <483B8590.8010509@comcast.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Dan wrote: > >> Good news. >> I just rcvd the RFQ from Area51esg.com >> I bought some, only $5 each for 7 pieces >> > > I'm impressed! Thanks for letting us know. I'll add > area51esg.com to my AVL. :-) > You know some things just happen for a reason. I just did my ritual monthly sorting of vintage material and jackpot, I found the datasheet. However, my buddy who gave me this long ago had some sadistic humor. This is a photocopy from the databook but at a much smaller size than the original page, about 4"x5" Several words are not that legible due to the poor quality. I started to scan this at 600dpi and print this full size, 8"x11", so it becomes legible again. I rcvd my parts from Area51esg last week. =Dan [ enjoy Memorial Day and Remember VFW Post 118 ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 26 23:07:39 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c@webmail.izone.at> References: <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c@webmail.izone.at> Message-ID: <52107.71.139.37.220.1211861259.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Gerhard wrote about a 100 MHz oscilliscope: > For slow signals usually present in classical hardware, thats no > problem. That's true. Many people have the mistaken belief that a 'scope with 20 MHz bandwidth is adequate for looking at 20 MHz digital signals, but that is not true. For digital signals you usually want bandwidth of at least five times the peak frequency of the system, and preferably more. It's hard to diagnose problems when fairly square edges on signals look like sine waves on the 'scope. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 26 23:11:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: <483B83F2.9040204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <483B83F2.9040204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <58570.71.139.37.220.1211861496.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> branchuk wrote: > I think fatten your mac had you piggy back your 64K drams and > bring out CS? to the address decoder. Nope. DRAMs don't have a CS signal, they have RAS and CAS. Also, there wasn't any decode for another bank of 64K DRAMs. The upgrade was to replace the DRAMs with newfangled expensvie 256K parts, and add a 74S257 multiplexer for A8. I don't recall whether the board had pin 1 of the DRAMs wired together; if not you'd have to do that as well. Eric From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon May 26 10:49:14 2008 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:49:14 EDT Subject: more stuff from the garage Message-ID: Any interest in a Tatung Super COMPstation-20S SPARCstation 20 clone? Currently has 2xSM71 and 208MB and TGX graphics. If anyone has a hot yen for a HP9000 G70 (dual-processors with max RAM (768MB), I've had HP-UX 11i running on it), I might be easily persuaded. It's an unracked ex-rack model, so the front bezel is loose but present. Includes console cable and redundant power supply units. Also, it's sounding like the guy I was going to send my Origin200 (base model, 1x180MHz and 200-somthing MB RAM, no skins) to might be no longer interested, so that one could be available. Also have a set of purple SGI Indigo2 feet and a Xyplex Network 9000 terminal server (~20 ports, TS720 with Flash boot), and an almost-new-in-box (removed for testing) Litronic Argus 2102 SCSI PCMCIA reader. On the flip side, if anyone's getting rid of any little Alpha boards/systems that take an EV56 or better or 3B2 stuff I'd be interested provided it isn't the expensive stuff. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon May 26 22:33:12 2008 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 23:33:12 EDT Subject: X11R7.1 nuisances (it does have bearing on classic comps) Message-ID: Several months ago I upgraded my PC system to Debian 4.0 for several reasons, including being able to use X11R7.1 which was supposed to be a most excellent upgrade. I have had nothing but trouble attempting to run it as an X server for my classic-ish machines. IRIX 6.5.30/Origin200 gives random X-server crashes (when I try Xnest it crashes both Xnest and the parent X), and there is likewise wierdness when I try to use it to connect to my VAX 4000/200 running VMS v7.3 and DECwindows/Motif 1.2.6 (in Xnest windows will migrate outside of the designated server (to the :0 server), and running on it's own screen with XDM the server will often reset before I get the DECwindows "desktop", dropping me back at the XDM login screen). Anyone seen these types of problems before? It seems as though X11R7.1 just "doesn't work" remotely with R6.X and R5.x clients reliably (haven't tried it with my Suns or HP boxes). I currently was given a "new" machine (as in not classic), P4/2.8 with an nVidia 5200 (which might be the problem source) that I'm running. I've been considering whether this would be fixed in X11R7.2 or whether I should try to do a parallel install of X11R6.4 or if I should try it with a Rage128 card in place of the nVidia. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon May 26 22:33:55 2008 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 23:33:55 EDT Subject: 3B2 progress Message-ID: About a year ago I was given a 3B2 1000/70 by Josh Dersch that I've finally gotten UNIX booted on (in a fashon). I've been spoiled by modern variants of UNIX that include the disklabel program in the miniroot, and it seems that 3B2 System V doesn't. The FAQs seem to address either installing on a MFM drive (V3 (500+) 3B2s are SCSI based), or bringing up a drive in parallel with a valid install (the original drive died), or installing on an AT&T sourced drive that's already been labeled (not an option). (A) Does anybody have the "3B2 Computer Maintenance Utilities" or "IDtools" floppy image floating around, or is this the one that I have with filledt and dgmon on it? (B) is the SCSI-FMT tape the equivalent of IRIX's standalone fx for setting up completely blank disks? (the one I'm using is an ex-Sun Seagate). (C) backplane slots: my machine is an interesting hybrid: it's a 3B2-1000/80 backplane with a 3B2-1000/70 system board. I'm trying to figure out if I have Pbus (looks like these are just an extention of the system bus), B?Bus (some buffered permutation of the above?), or something else entirely, since this machine came to me with a PE card (multiprocessor board). How much of the wiring is backplane-dependant, and how much is system board dependant? Anyone have spare bits for one of these? I wouldn't mind a network card, or more I/O (serial or serial/parallel). One further warning: if you use a SCSI cable scavanged from a dead HP 9000 Nova class (or the HP 3000 equivalent), be forewarned that on the end that connects to the backplane the IDC connector is installed backwards (as opposed to the ends that connect to the disks). I blindly assumed that SCSI was SCSI and d idn't think to check until it didn't work. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4& ?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue May 27 03:03:57 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:33:57 +0930 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules Message-ID: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit type TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is scratched into the metal label. Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any information about them or the company. Thanks, Alexis. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue May 27 03:30:33 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 10:30:33 +0200 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <001001c8bfd3$ee5a5040$2101a8c0@finans> > > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. > > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of > digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any > information about them or the company. > According to my tube and transistorhandbook (1965), the OC44 can be used for HF amplifier and mixer. Details : - PNP - dissipation : 83 mw - Vce : 15 - Hfe : 100 - Fab : 15 MHz - Ico : 0,5 uA Made by Amperex, Mullard, Philips, Valvo From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue May 27 03:38:06 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:08:06 +0930 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <001001c8bfd3$ee5a5040$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <3A2CE018-2BC8-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> On Tuesday, May 27, 2008, at 06:00 PM, Nico de Jong wrote: >> >> Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. >> >> What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of >> digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any >> information about them or the company. >> > According to my tube and transistorhandbook (1965), the OC44 can be > used for > HF amplifier and mixer. > Details : > - PNP > - dissipation : 83 mw > - Vce : 15 > - Hfe : 100 > - Fab : 15 MHz > - Ico : 0,5 uA > Made by Amperex, Mullard, Philips, Valvo > > > Sorry I was referring to the modules, not the transistors :) From ats at offog.org Tue May 27 05:11:08 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:11:08 +0100 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> (Alexis's message of "Tue\, 27 May 2008 17\:33\:57 +0930") References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: Alexis writes: > [...] but I can't find any information about them or the company. Searching for "Venner Electronics" on Google finds a few articles from the 1960s suggesting they were a test equipment manufacturer building digital voltmeters, frequency counters, oscillators and similar. For example, here are adverts for some of their products in the Journal of Scientific Instruments: http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0950-7671/38/10/423 The DVM described can be "connected directly to a Venner printer and/or reperforator, for the operation of which a print command pulse is provided at the completion of each conversion". Pretty cool stuff for 1961. -- Adam Sampson From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 27 10:35:09 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 08:35:09 -0700 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? Message-ID: <483C2A2D.10908@bitsavers.org> > Have they all been scanned and are on line? V4 with the basic and fortran volumes are now online at bitsavers. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 27 10:42:51 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:42:51 +0100 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <483C2BFB.4030103@philpem.me.uk> Adam Sampson wrote: > For example, here are adverts for some of their products in the > Journal of Scientific Instruments: > http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0950-7671/38/10/423 I've just pulled that article from the IOP site - the device in question (TSA-3336) is described as a "low priced instrument using transistor plug-in modules". It's basically a frequency counter / pulse width measurement box. Might be worth looking into, especially the "transistor modules" reference. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue May 27 11:40:29 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:40:29 +0100 Subject: [personal] Venner Electronics Modules References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <001901c8c018$5fd51f90$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexis" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:03 AM Subject: [personal] Venner Electronics Modules > Hi, > > I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, > Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit type > TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is > scratched into the metal label. Venner made high end counters, dvm's and the like, we used quite a lot of them at N.G.T.E Pyestock. > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. I believe rare now, used in the Elliott 803B computer and other in the range. If in the UK and no other use for them consider the The National Museum of Computing at Bletchley Park - http://www.tnmoc.co.uk/index.htm they run an Elliott 803B and need spare OC44/OC45's > > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of digital > machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any information about > them or the company. > > Thanks, > > Alexis. > > > Mike From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 27 11:49:00 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:49:00 +0100 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: I had one of the counters that used the modules (parts still around in the loft somewhere), they also iirc offered them for sale as general purpose modules (I may have a brochure) Dave Caroline On 5/27/08, Alexis wrote: > Hi, > > I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, > Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit type > TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is scratched > into the metal label. > > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. > > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of digital > machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any information about > them or the company. > > Thanks, > > Alexis. > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue May 27 12:17:01 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules Message-ID: <483C09CD020000370002C8F2@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Alexis writes: > I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, > Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit > type TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is > scratched into the metal label. > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of > digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any > information about them or the company. Venner Electronics made lab equipment in the 60's and maybe early 70's. What I've seen are digital voltmeters, frequency and period counters, etc. The decade counter modules you have seem most applicable to frequency counter and timing applications but I think they were used as part of the A/D scheme for some of the digital voltmeters too. HP, Berkley Nucleonics, Ortec, and other companies used in their equipment, and sold to other companies as well, decade counter modules etc. from the 50's onward. I presume "Transistor Decade Unit" was to differentiate it from the "Tube Decade Unit"s that I am very familiar with. If sold to the nuclear instrumentation industry they are usually called "scalers" instead of "counters". Some have direct readout of 0-9 lamps on the side, some have nixie sockets, others simply divide by ten and provide outputs but don't have displays in themselves. Tim. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 27 12:54:36 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:54:36 -0400 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? In-Reply-To: <483C2A2D.10908@bitsavers.org> References: <483C2A2D.10908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <483C4ADC.1000704@compsys.to> >Al Kossow wrote: > > Have they all been scanned and are on line? > > V4 with the basic and fortran volumes are now online at bitsavers. Do you have a link that makes them easy to find? From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue May 27 13:04:29 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:04:29 +0200 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? In-Reply-To: <483C4ADC.1000704@compsys.to> References: <483C2A2D.10908@bitsavers.org> <483C4ADC.1000704@compsys.to> Message-ID: www.bitsavers.org The follow the leads and searchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jerome H. Fine Verzonden: dinsdag 27 mei 2008 19:55 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? >Al Kossow wrote: > > Have they all been scanned and are on line? > > V4 with the basic and fortran volumes are now online at bitsavers. Do you have a link that makes them easy to find? From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 27 13:06:52 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:06:52 -0700 Subject: Vintage computer films Message-ID: <483BEB4C.23687.494CF3@cclist.sydex.com> The cctalk server seems to have swallowed up postings after 22 May, so I'll post this one again: There are some very cool videos at: http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/05/a-brief-history.html The first film looks to be late 60's and is from Barclay's Bank. I can identify S/360 and CDC 6000 gear easily; but not some of the other stuff (ICL?). The last film clip from a Britcom features an "intelligent" luggable named Bourenmouth, What machine was it before it received its paint job? Cheers, Chuck From john at guntersville.net Tue May 27 13:15:48 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:15:48 -0500 Subject: Major House Cleaning Message-ID: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> Time has come to clear out a major portion of the stash. At my age I will never get around to all of the projects. The following is a partial listing of what is available. I will add to the list as stuff emerges from the pile. Make offers, cash or trade. Pickup only in Guntersville, AL, USA. mVAX II (BA-23) several mVAX II (BA-123) several Vector 3 with mindless terminal DynaByte 8/2 with 8/4 drive box 2 ea. WellFleet (Bay) Router 3 ea. Micom Marathon 1K TI Travelmate LT-220 Hyperian portable PC HP Apollo 710 Atari 1041ST w/monitor Teletype model 43 various DEC Qbus card cages for PDP-11 power supply, blower and etc for RM-03 The following needs to go to someone that can make them available to the group. A lot of VMS gray wall books A lot of VMS orange wall books A lot of component (IC, diode, transistor) manufacture's data books From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 27 13:32:47 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:32:47 -0500 Subject: Major House Cleaning In-Reply-To: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> References: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <483C53CF.8070005@pacbell.net> John C. Ellingboe wrote: > Time has come to clear out a major portion of the stash. At my > age I will never get around to all of the projects. John, I often feel that way, and I'm 44. You are to be lauded for recognizing the importance of prioritizing. You are to be pilloried for feeding the lack of self control of others. :-) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue May 27 13:50:24 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:50:24 -0400 Subject: Major House Cleaning In-Reply-To: <483C53CF.8070005@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim Battle wrote: > > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > Time has come to clear out a major portion of the stash. At my > > age I will never get around to all of the projects. > > John, I often feel that way, and I'm 44. > > You are to be lauded for recognizing the importance of prioritizing. Nonsense! We're going to live forever and have all the time we need for our projects. It will be annoying to pack the collection on a spaceship to get it clear of the Sun going red giant... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 27 14:52:24 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:52:24 -0800 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> Alexis wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, > Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit > type TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is > scratched into the metal label. > > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. > > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of > digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any > information about them or the company. I have a Venner TSA 3336 counter that uses those modules, as well as the leaflet-style manuals for the various modules. Pictures and description of the counter and modules are at: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/VennerTSA3336/index.html The novel thing about the counter is it uses meter-projection displays (horribly finicky things). The counter modules are typical 4 flip-flop decade counters, including 4 resistors in a simple D-A arrangement to drive the meter-projection displays. According to the leaflets the 10/5 is a decade counter good to 30KHz, the 11/HF is a decade 'selector' (same but has all outputs brought out to a connector), good to 1MHz. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 27 14:12:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:12:18 -0700 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player Message-ID: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> I know this is off-topic, but I'm looking for suggestions and a solution may involve a "vintage" box. If you feel that discussion of this on-list isn't appropriate, please email me privately. Here's my situation. I like to listen to web-based radio and I transmit an FM signal so that I can listen on any FM radio. It works very well and I'm happy with that aspect. However, the system doing this is an old built-like-a-tank 500MHz P3 Compaq Deskpro box running RedHat somehing-or-the other (it's been so long since I've upgraded it that I don't remember) 24x7. I'd like something that drinks less power. Interface to the web is via 100BaseT copper. Station switching is accomplished via a simple shell script and initiated via telnet. My current thought is that I could pick up something like an HP e-PC and equip it with a CF hard drive. But a 1.7GHz CPU again seems like overkill for a very limited application. Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. Thanks! Chuck From john at guntersville.net Tue May 27 14:17:29 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:17:29 -0500 Subject: Major House Cleaning In-Reply-To: <483C53CF.8070005@pacbell.net> References: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> <483C53CF.8070005@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <483C5E49.4030000@guntersville.net> Jim Battle wrote: > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > >> Time has come to clear out a major portion of the stash. At my >> age I will never get around to all of the projects. > > > John, I often feel that way, and I'm 44. > > You are to be lauded for recognizing the importance of prioritizing. > > You are to be pilloried for feeding the lack of self control of others. > :-) > I figure to try to find good homes for it so that later (much later, I hope) my sisters don't have to deal with it. Some of it is from a rescue that didn't work out and I need to move it so I can just clean up easier. It is just me and the puppy dogs but we would like it to be a little easier to walk through the house. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 27 14:22:28 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:22:28 -0500 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <483C5F74.5000706@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the > streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. You only need about 133MHz for what you're doing. Some ideas: - Use a 133Mhz PC - Use a laptop (better power management than a 1999-era desktop PC) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 27 14:28:15 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:28:15 -0600 Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: <58570.71.139.37.220.1211861496.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <483B83F2.9040204@jetnet.ab.ca> <58570.71.139.37.220.1211861496.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <483C60CF.9020003@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > branchuk wrote: > >> I think fatten your mac had you piggy back your 64K drams and >> bring out CS? to the address decoder. >> > > Nope. DRAMs don't have a CS signal, they have RAS and CAS. Also, there > wasn't any decode for another bank of 64K DRAMs. The upgrade was to > replace the DRAMs with newfangled expensvie 256K parts, and add a > 74S257 multiplexer for A8. I don't recall whether the board had > pin 1 of the DRAMs wired together; if not you'd have to do that > as well. > > Eric > > That sounds about right.I think I bought that DDJ for something about FORTH rather than the mac. Lazy Evaluation for FORTH words. Back then you got a paper listing and all that stuff. Not like now where you buy the MAG so you can order a CD rom with the CODE that only works under some unfordable windows development system. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue May 27 14:31:22 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:31:22 -0700 Subject: Anyone seen Jay? Message-ID: Or know how to get a message to him? I've been trying to rejoin the mailing list since February. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 27 14:55:54 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:55:54 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT-180 "Robin" Corvus interface + software Message-ID: <01C8C013.2B1D20E0@host-208-72-122-148.dyn.295.ca> --------Original Message: Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:46:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Hirsch Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC VT-180 "Robin" Corvus interface + software On Tue, 20 May 2008, Richard wrote: > > I have a VT-180, but I have no idea what a "Corvus interface" is, so > I'll ask the obvious question. What is it? Corvus made a family of external hard drives using a common bus interface (quasi-network, actually). There was an interface board produced for the DEC VT-180 that, along with the driver software, permitted it to use files on attached drives. I have never seen one, but presume it's a small internal add-on (possibly piggy-back style) circuit board or a little external box. It would be labeled 'Corvus' or 'Corvus Systems, Inc.' Steve -- ----------Reply: I have an external Corvus drive enclosure (the small MFM version, not the 8" IMI 7700) that I used to house an external HD for another system, but I still have the original interface board if anyone's interested. I think it was an Omninet drive; the only connection to the outside world AFAIR is a 3-pin header plug. m From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 27 15:07:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:07:05 -0600 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 27 May 2008 13:54:36 -0400. <483C4ADC.1000704@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <483C4ADC.1000704 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > >Al Kossow wrote: > > > > Have they all been scanned and are on line? > > V4 with the basic and fortran volumes are now online at bitsavers. > > Do you have a link that makes them easy to find? Start at and drill down. BTW, I have an RSS feed for new PDF files on bitsavers: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 27 15:09:51 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:09:51 -0400 Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 27, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > During the recent list latency (what happened, anyway?) I tracked > the problem to a defective WD2793 FDC chip. These appear to be > just about pure unobtanium, however. Besides eBay, does anyone > know of a source for onsie-twosies? Unicorn Electronics (http://www.unicornelectronics.com/) has them for eight bucks. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 27 15:27:43 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:27:43 -0500 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <483C6EBF.8050300@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My current thought is that I could pick up something like an HP e-PC > and equip it with a CF hard drive. But a 1.7GHz CPU again seems like > overkill for a very limited application. > > Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the > streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. The "Eden" mini-ITX boards are going pretty cheap these days. Low-power and low-BTU processors and very small form-factors. If you have a pretty hefty 12V or 24V DC adapter, you can get a DC-ATX converter for about $30. I've got a little Eden C3 300MHz board that runs on 5VDC that supposedly came out of a firewall router (No idea what brand, I pulled it naked out of a barrel of greenboard.) It's smaller than a 5.25" drive, uses a PC133 SODIMM, has onboard 100bT and video, and supports standard IDE devices. I paid $5 for it. Doc From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue May 27 15:43:18 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:43:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0805271343g192bf58dk226be56eff1312ea@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the > streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. > > Thanks! > Chuck > There are a lot of third party players that leverage the Windows realaudio codecs. I think Mplayer and VLC can both stream realaudio, and both are comparatively lightweight compared to the bloated real one / helix player. Mplayer has a command-line mode that could be controlled from another app, or remotely. From redodd at comcast.net Tue May 27 15:55:42 2008 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:55:42 -0400 Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair References: <200805271700.m4RH05mr009499@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003301c8c03c$077f1980$a0c32c44@core2duo> > Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:56:27 -0400 (EDT) > From: Steven Hirsch > Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII > > Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on > eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the > Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and > schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and > that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that > point. > It looks like the head-step pulses are generated in software by the > onboard 6507 CPU. The four phases appear on PB2-5 of a 6532 IO interface > and are presumably getting cycled in the correct sequence since the head > moves quite smoothly until it hits the physical stop. > I've already verified supply voltages and inspected the board closely for > burn marks, broken traces, etc. and reseated all the socketed ICs. > The unit is fitted with the 'US Doubler' enhancement, about which I know > very little. > Would appreciate any tips on troubleshooting. > > Steve Steve, The only problem that I've had with 1050's is that the felt pressure pad that replaces the top head will fall off. I don't remember the exact symptoms because it's been a few years. Take a look, it couldn't hurt. Ralph From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 27 16:31:32 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:31:32 -0500 Subject: Anyone seen Jay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483C7DB4.4010605@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Or know how to get a message to him? > > I've been trying to rejoin the mailing list since February. Doesn't this post indicate your success? (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 16:10:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:10:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at May 22, 8 07:56:27 am Message-ID: > > Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on > eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the > Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and > schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and > that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that > point. I don;t have the data sheet in front of me (and I certainly don't haev the 1050 schematics here), but if that signal name 'NTRACK00' means the obvious thing, it's _not_ Track0. In other words it should be low when the head is on track0. If it's not, it would explain why the drive is hammering the head into the end stop, looking for a track 0 signal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 16:25:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:25:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> from "Alexis" at May 27, 8 05:33:57 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, > Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit AFAIK the company is no longer there, the road is (and is better known as the A3). Not that that helps you much. > type TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is > scratched into the metal label. > > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. A well-known germanium RF transistor.... > > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of > digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any > information about them or the company. Venner are farily well-known for control and measuremnt devices. Venner timeswitches, for example, were widely used for street lamp control [1]. My guess is that these modules, in particular the decade counter, were used in some kind fo DVM/frequency counter [2] [1] They had an amzing (if OT) think called a 'solar dial'. Not much thicker than a normal timeswithc dial, this thing had a star wheel that was flipped on one position by a pin on the timeswitch chassis once per revolution (day). there was a gear train built into the dial that caused a sleeve around the cetnral spindle to rotate once per year, and a pair of cams that moved the on and off levers so as to correct for the sunrise and sunset times. When used for streetlamp control you got lights that turned on and off at the right time. [2] Such things were around before transistors. Somewhere I have a _valved_ DVM [3], and HP made a valved frequency counter. I've got an article somwehre for a 10 it successive-approximation ADC, punching the output as 2 rows of 5 level paper tape, built from relays and a uniselector. The comparator is one of those sensitive moving-coil relays, for example [3] It was given to my school (the worst thing to do to any piece of historic equipment IMHO). It didn't work, the teachers couldn't see the point of it, and alas before I got to hear of it, some idiot had started raiding it for the precision resistors. I realised what it was before too much damage had been done, and managed ot get them to give it to me. But it's going to be a lot of work to get going again. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue May 27 16:51:24 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:51:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wanted: Junk computer cases, Houston Message-ID: [I originally sent this on the 23rd but it seems to have disappeared into the void while the list was down. Hopefully there won't be a duplicate show up later.] I'm looking for 7 or so junk computer cases in or around the Houston area. A little over 10 years ago I installed a number of high end (for the time) machines for a local company. I went back in 2001 or 2002 and decommissioned them after Tropical Storm Allison when the projects they were hosting were shut down. The machines been sitting in a corner of the equipment room ever since. I've been told I can now remove them if I want them, but there is a catch. Asset management wants "something" to show them as removed from inventory. They don't much care what they get because anything over 3-5 years old (according to inventory sheets) gets sent to the metal scrapper. So...I'm looking for 7 or so junk computer cases. The systems I had in place there were large full-sized deskside chassis, but something like mini-tower PC cases should do. It would be best if they were completely empty no-name junk cases as I really don't like sending anything to the metal scrappers (I still use a number of well made heavy duty AT cases for my personal machines). I kinda wish I hadn't gotten rid of all my own junk PC cases 5-7 years ago but I'm sure there has to be someone in or around the Houston area with some junker cases still sitting around. I could probably also use some anti-static bags too as I have a bunch of spare parts in a cabinet there that are sitting in bins. I can't take the bins but the spare boards and drives will go with the old systems. Replies should probably be off-list. Even though the machines I'm attempting to save from the scrapper would be on-topic by now, they aren't DEC, Sun, etc and would probably be boring to many list members. Also, please maintain a subject line I can easily spot as I'm often flooded with spam. From josefcub at gmail.com Tue May 27 17:16:49 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:16:49 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Junk computer cases, Houston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920805271516h29ae961aj283a63c4adbfe16c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > [I originally sent this on the 23rd but it seems to have disappeared into > the void while the list was down. Hopefully there won't be a duplicate show > up later.] > > I'm looking for 7 or so junk computer cases in or around the Houston area. I'm out Bastrop-way (50mi east of Austin on 71), and I can probably scare up a few junk cases. And if you don't want one of those big server boys, I'd be happy to trade. (*laughs* Not exactly a fair trade ;) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From josefcub at gmail.com Tue May 27 17:17:10 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:17:10 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Junk computer cases, Houston In-Reply-To: <9e2403920805271516h29ae961aj283a63c4adbfe16c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920805271516h29ae961aj283a63c4adbfe16c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920805271517p6b3c749s40ccb553ff165d2c@mail.gmail.com> Whoopsie. On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Josef Chessor wrote: > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> >> [I originally sent this on the 23rd but it seems to have disappeared into >> the void while the list was down. Hopefully there won't be a duplicate show >> up later.] >> >> I'm looking for 7 or so junk computer cases in or around the Houston area. > > I'm out Bastrop-way (50mi east of Austin on 71), and I can probably > scare up a few junk cases. And if you don't want one of those big > server boys, I'd be happy to trade. (*laughs* Not exactly a fair > trade ;) > > Josef > > > -- > "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world > and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." > -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, > "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 27 17:19:42 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:19:42 -0600 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483C88FE.3040509@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > [3] It was given to my school (the worst thing to do to any piece of > historic equipment IMHO). It didn't work, the teachers couldn't see the > point of it, and alas before I got to hear of it, some idiot had started > raiding it for the precision resistors. I realised what it was before too > much damage had been done, and managed ot get them to give it to me. But > it's going to be a lot of work to get going again. > I suspect the resistors will not be hard to replace, as resistor quality has gone up over the years. What is sad is the loss of well designed equipment since the puter era. > -tony > > From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 27 18:39:14 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 19:39:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: <483B83F2.9040204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: It's funny you said that. I found the original invoices for my Fat Mac. $2495 in 1985. $500 for a 1200-baud modem. $800 for an ImageWriter I. $500 for the external floppy drive. I remember I got a discount from the store (NYNEX/DataGo) because by father worked at NYNEX in the early 80's. If I have time, I'll scan it and post it on my Web site. On 5/26/08 11:45 PM, "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: >> All: >> >> I?m looking for the two following Dr. Dobb?s articles on the Mac: >> >> ::Jan 1985 "Fatten Your Mac" by Thomas Lafleur and Susan Raab >> ::Sep 1985 ?SCSI Your Mac, in MAC Toolbox? by John Bass relating to >> adding a home-brewed SCSI interface to the Mac 128/512. >> >> > I think fatten your mac had you piggy back your 64K drams and > bring out CS? to the address decoder. I still marvel at the price > of a MAC and it had only 128K memory. >> I have one of the DDJ article compilation CDs (Volume 11) but it only >> starts at 1988. I would be grateful if someone with access to these issues >> could make scans of them or point me to an on-line copy. Googling this >> morning didn?t produce much other than TeX indices. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rich >> >> Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue May 27 19:01:52 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:01:52 -0700 Subject: RT-11 V4 & V5 manuals online? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483CA0F0.6080309@mindspring.com> Richard wrote: > In article <483C4ADC.1000704 at compsys.to>, > "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > > >> >Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >>>> Have they all been scanned and are on line? >>>> > > >>> V4 with the basic and fortran volumes are now online at bitsavers. >>> >> Do you have a link that makes them easy to find? >> > > Start at and drill down. > > BTW, I have an RSS feed for new PDF files on bitsavers: > > And it works, great! Except it broke on a few of the RSX manuals with verrrrrrrrrrry long file names: dec :: pdp11 :: rsx11 :: RSX11Mplus V4.x :: 5 :: AA-JS16A-TC RSX-11M PLUS and Micro RSX IO Operations Reference Manual Sep dec :: pdp11 :: rsx11 :: RSX11Mplus V4.x :: 5 :: AA-JS16A-TC RSX-11M PLUS and Micro RSX IO Operations Reference Manual Sep dec :: pdp11 :: rsx11 :: RSX11Mplus V4.x :: 5 :: AA-JS11A-TC RSX-11M-PLUS and Micro RSX IO Drivers Reference Manual Sep87. dec :: pdp11 :: rsx11 :: RSX11Mplus V4.x :: 5 :: AA-JS11A-TC RSX-11M-PLUS and Micro RSX IO Drivers Reference Manual Sep87. dec :: pdp11 :: rsx11 :: RSX11Mplus V4.x :: 4c :: AA-JS17A-TC RSX-11M-PLUS and Micro RSX 4.0 Executive Reference Manual Se dec :: pdp11 :: rsx11 :: RSX11Mplus V4.x :: 4c :: AA-JS17A-TC RSX-11M-PLUS and Micro RSX 4.0 Executive Reference Manual Se You must make some assumption about the max length of the entire pathname being ~122 char or less and some names get truncated. When you click on the filename in the RSS feed it goes to the error 401 page on bitsavers. Don From rcini at optonline.net Tue May 27 19:27:04 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:27:04 -0400 Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: <483B83F2.9040204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 5/26/08 11:45 PM, "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" wrote: > I think fatten your mac had you piggy back your 64K drams and > bring out CS? to the address decoder. I still marvel at the price > of a MAC and it had only 128K memory. I was going from memory before so I dug out the invoice for my Mac512k: Date: 9/12/85 Purchased from: NYNEX/DataGo (this was NYNEX's business center retail chain. NYNEX was the merged phone companies of New York Telephone and New England Bell after the 1984 consent decree which broke-up AT&T) Mac 512k - $2795 Imagewriter 80CO - $545 IWI Cable Kit - $50 Mac External Disk - $495 Mac Numeric Keypad - $70 Mac Modem 1200 - $495 Mac Carry Case - $90 Maxell 3.5" Disks - $50 MacTerminal - $99 MSWord Mac - $195 Mac 68000 PDS - $195 MSBASIC - $150 MSExcel - $429 That's $5,658 and it didn't even include a hard drive! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 27 19:37:45 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:37:45 -0400 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <483C88FE.3040509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <483C88FE.3040509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200805272037.45746.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 May 2008 18:19, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > [3] It was given to my school (the worst thing to do to any piece of > > historic equipment IMHO). It didn't work, the teachers couldn't see the > > point of it, and alas before I got to hear of it, some idiot had started > > raiding it for the precision resistors. I realised what it was before too > > much damage had been done, and managed ot get them to give it to me. But > > it's going to be a lot of work to get going again. > > I suspect the resistors will not be hard to replace, as resistor quality > has gone up over the years. What is sad is the loss of well designed > equipment since the puter era. Yes indeed. Ever since I got a whole lot of those manuals I've been lusting after some of that GenRad stuff, even though there's no way in hell I can possibly justify the purchase of any test equipment... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 27 20:11:59 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:11:59 -0400 Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483CB15F.3000504@hawkmountain.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased > on eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death > against the Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service > manual and schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor > was working and that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is > pulled high at that point. > > It looks like the head-step pulses are generated in software by the > onboard 6507 CPU. The four phases appear on PB2-5 of a 6532 IO > interface and are presumably getting cycled in the correct sequence > since the head moves quite smoothly until it hits the physical stop. > > I've already verified supply voltages and inspected the board closely > for burn marks, broken traces, etc. and reseated all the socketed ICs. > > The unit is fitted with the 'US Doubler' enhancement, about which I > know very little. I don't know what the problem with your drive could be... you've already looked at the first thing I'd have looked at (track 0 sensor). As for the US Doubler, I have one of those (installed it into my 1050 drive years ago). This is a drive software change to give true double density to the drives and was originally used with SpartaDOS, but later I believe Dos 2.5 supports it. It also has a high speed mode (which may only work for double density, I don't recall at this point). -- Curt > > > Would appreciate any tips on troubleshooting. > > > Steve > > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:20:10 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:20:10 -0400 Subject: MCT-EPROM Message-ID: <015101c8c060$f9ac6f40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I have an old EPROM programmer for the PC. It uses an 8 bit ISA card labeled "MCT-EPROM". JDR used to sell these in the 1980's for 24 & 28 pin EPROM programming. It is a fairly simple device but it doesn't appear to be working. JDR still has the software on their FTP site for the programmer, I think. I believe it uses the "MOD-EPROM" software from the "MOD_EPRO.ZIP" file. It appears there are several pieces of software on the JDR site which support this programmer Whenever I start the MOD-EPROM software it says it cannot find the controller board. It is looking for a device a 0x2A0 but apparently can't find it. The software does NOT allow the IO address to be changed and there are no configuration jumpers on the controller board. The ISA controller board installed in 486sx (25 MHz) but the software could not find it. I tried with a P3 (450 MHz) and got the same result. Does anyone have one of these EPROM programmers and can lend me a hand? I need to confirm some things in order to determine if this part is working or not. It may be I am using the wrong software or too fast of a computer. Thanks in advance for any help. Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:20:10 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:20:10 -0400 Subject: AWARD SOFTWARE POSTcard Message-ID: <015201c8c060$fa04a160$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am trying to revive an original IBM XT motherboard using an AWARD POSTcard. Unfortunately, I do not have the manual for the POSTcard. Does anyone have one or can help with the switch settings? The XT uses IO port 60h for the POST code whereas the AT uses port 80h. I know the POSTcard works since it gives proper codes on AT class machines (486 and newer) Thanks in advance for any help! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:37:14 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:37:14 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM Message-ID: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Has anyone have or know where to get an IBM XT (5160) diagnostic ROM? I am trying to revive an original IBM XT motherboard which is nonresponsive and gives no error codes (beep or POST). I am not even sure such a ROM exists but it would be a 27C256 style EPROM that plugs into an IBM XT motherboard to help fault isolate an almost completely dead unit. The motherboard CPU seems to be working based on a quick exam with the oscilloscope. However, the motherboard's initialization / boot process is not making it to start up the video display before it hangs or crashes. Obviously, something is broken but I haven't isolated exactly what yet. If anyone can help, I would much appreciate it. Thank you in advance. Andrew Lynch From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue May 27 20:42:23 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:42:23 -0700 Subject: Anyone seen Jay? (fwd) 4d2fb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Doesn't this post indicate your success? (ducking) So I would have thought. Apparently you can post after attempting to join the list, but until approved by Jay, you don't receive any messages from it. I'm reading this from the list archive. :( From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 27 22:05:50 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 May 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Has anyone have or know where to get an IBM XT (5160) diagnostic ROM? I am > trying to revive an original IBM XT motherboard which is nonresponsive and > gives no error codes (beep or POST). > I am not even sure such a ROM exists but it would be a 27C256 style EPROM > that plugs into an IBM XT motherboard to help fault isolate an almost > completely dead unit. It DID exist. Todd Fischer? made a diagnostic ROM. It came with a serial board, and required that you supply a terminal. The chances of my finding mine are zilch. Unlike a POST card, it could diagnose a dead CPU, etc. > If anyone can help, I would much appreciate it. Thank you in advance. I don't think that it is much help to tell you of the existence of something unobtainable. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue May 27 22:05:37 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:05:37 -0700 Subject: AWARD SOFTWARE POSTcard - switch settings In-Reply-To: <015201c8c060$fa04a160$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <015201c8c060$fa04a160$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <483CCC01.9010209@sbcglobal.net> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > I am trying to revive an original IBM XT motherboard using an AWARD > POSTcard. > > Unfortunately, I do not have the manual for the POSTcard. > > Does anyone have one or can help with the switch settings? The XT uses IO > port 60h for the POST code whereas the AT uses port 80h. > > I know the POSTcard works since it gives proper codes on AT class machines > (486 and newer) > > Thanks in advance for any help! > > Andrew Lynch > > Assuming your Award POST card is an early one (BAR in the lower left corner) then SW1 sets the address. It decodes the lower 10 bits of the address bus as follows: SW1 position 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Address A9 A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3 A2 A1 A0 ON= 0, OFF = 1 Default is 80h ON ON OFF ON ON ON ON ON ON ON For 60h ON ON ON OFF OFF ON ON ON ON ON I have the users manual for the card, but my scanner is currently not working for some reason. If you need more info, I can look it up for you. Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 27 22:29:41 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51543.71.139.37.220.1211945381.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Rich wrote: > That's $5,658 and it didn't even include a hard drive! Yes, but those were just 1985 dollars, not... oops, wait a minute... wow, that was expensive! :-) Of course, the IBM PC and PC/XT were pretty expensive back then too, but the Macintosh definitely commanded a premium price. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 27 22:52:09 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:52:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <200805280028.m4S0SX0f014918@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805280028.m4S0SX0f014918@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483C7479.29684.2611EBA@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:22:28 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > You only need about 133MHz for what you're doing. Some ideas: > > - Use a 133Mhz PC > - Use a laptop (better power management than a 1999-era desktop PC) Thanks. I thought of both, but still too power-hungry. How about something that runs off of a wall wart? My DSL modem with ARM7 CPU runs Linux and supports ethernet--it just don't have a sound chip. I don't need video a CD-ROM, hard disk or floppy; just network access with the ability to flash from the network. Even one of the VIA C3 boards is more than I need. Any other ideas? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 27 22:54:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 23:54:49 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 May 2008 23:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Has anyone have or know where to get an IBM XT (5160) diagnostic ROM? I > > am trying to revive an original IBM XT motherboard which is nonresponsive > > and gives no error codes (beep or POST). > > I am not even sure such a ROM exists but it would be a 27C256 style EPROM > > that plugs into an IBM XT motherboard to help fault isolate an almost > > completely dead unit. > > It DID exist. Todd Fischer? made a diagnostic ROM. It came with a serial > board, and required that you supply a terminal. The chances of my finding > mine are zilch. Unlike a POST card, it could diagnose a dead CPU, etc. How the heck is a diagnostic ROM going to diagnose a dead CPU? I must be missing something here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 27 23:07:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080527210531.S38357@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 May 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > How the heck is a diagnostic ROM going to diagnose a dead CPU? I must be > missing something here... You're right. I was confusing it with something else entirely. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 27 23:08:46 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50094.71.139.37.220.1211947726.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Roy wrote: > How the heck is a diagnostic ROM going to diagnose a dead CPU? I must be > missing something here... I wondered that too. maybe it's not dead, just pinin' for the fjords. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 27 23:39:50 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:39:50 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <50094.71.139.37.220.1211947726.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> <50094.71.139.37.220.1211947726.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200805280039.58893.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 May 2008 00:08, Eric Smith wrote: > Roy wrote: > > How the heck is a diagnostic ROM going to diagnose a dead CPU? I must be > > missing something here... > > I wondered that too. maybe it's not dead, just pinin' for the fjords. African or European? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spedraja at gmail.com Tue May 27 05:49:50 2008 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:49:50 +0200 Subject: NIC 7104 (Arpanet Protocol Handbook) Message-ID: Hello. I should like to obtain one copy of the NIC 7104 (Arpanet Protocol Handbook). It was published many years ago by SRI but actually is completely dissapeared. Could someones help, please ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From jcoman at valcom.com Tue May 27 10:16:21 2008 From: jcoman at valcom.com (Joel Coman) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:16:21 -0400 Subject: Collecting development kits (was: iUP201) Message-ID: Do you still have that Motorola M68HC705KICS K-Series ICS/Programmer? Found post at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2006-January/212076.html Joel Coman Supervisor, TEST Dept. VALCOM, INC. 5614 Hollins Rd Roanoke, Va. 24019 Ph: (540) 563-2000 Ext. 241 Fax: (540) 362-9800 From jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org Tue May 27 10:26:31 2008 From: jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 10:26:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: sorry for the downtime Message-ID: <200805271526.m4RFQVuU008449@dewey.classiccmp.org> A list member emailed me saying there appeared to be a problem with the list. When I looked at the server I saw the usual problem, fixed it, and neglected to check further (this is a reoccuring problem that I have to "fix" every month or so). I assumed as usual this would fix the problem and was in a hurry to get out the door. Turns out, this time there was also something else amiss, so I went through a day or two of "it's already fixed" emails, only to find out it wasn't. My apologies, all should be well now. Jay West From jrr at flippers.com Tue May 27 11:48:20 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 09:48:20 -0700 Subject: SN7523N datasheet In-Reply-To: <4834666A.2060604@adrianwise.co.uk> References: <4834666A.2060604@adrianwise.co.uk> Message-ID: <483C3B54.2000105@flippers.com> Adrian Wise wrote: > Does anyone have a datasheet for a Texas SN7523N? > > I have a datasheet for a Signetics SN7523 (dual core sense amp), and was > expecting that the TI part would be equivalent, but it seems to behave > differently. I'm trying to figure out if I have a bad part or my > assumption that they're equivalent parts is mistaken. > > Adrian > > According to my 1978 IC Master (everyone should have a copy of at least one of these books) the Alternate Source Directory listing for the TI SN7523N is National DS7523, Signetics 7523, or Silicon G SG7523. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 27 12:29:06 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on > eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the > Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and schematics > and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and that that > NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that point. > > It looks like the head-step pulses are generated in software by the onboard > 6507 CPU. The four phases appear on PB2-5 of a 6532 IO interface and are > presumably getting cycled in the correct sequence since the head moves quite > smoothly until it hits the physical stop. > > I've already verified supply voltages and inspected the board closely for > burn marks, broken traces, etc. and reseated all the socketed ICs. > > The unit is fitted with the 'US Doubler' enhancement, about which I know very > little. > > Would appreciate any tips on troubleshooting. During the recent list latency (what happened, anyway?) I tracked the problem to a defective WD2793 FDC chip. These appear to be just about pure unobtanium, however. Besides eBay, does anyone know of a source for onsie-twosies? While we're on that subject, I would love to know how to search for items like this on Google without wading through dozens and dozens of these obnoxious "Submit your RFQ here and we'll respond" sites. Most of them seem rather fly-by-night, and none of them will deal in small quantities. Steve -- From Claire.Fisk at labarge.com Tue May 27 15:50:28 2008 From: Claire.Fisk at labarge.com (Claire Fisk) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:50:28 -0500 Subject: HP 82931A Blue Print Thermal Paper Message-ID: <94A2899B37532D44ACCDF1CF310255FA01499B1A@hvlex1.labarge.com> I am in need of this thermal Paper,I woek for Labarge Inc. and have an HP 85 used for a tests system. If you still have the paper E-Mail me at cfisk at labarge.com. _______________________________________________________ This message may contain information that is privileged and confidential to LaBarge, Inc. It is for use only by the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not copy, use or deliver this message to anyone. In such event, you should destroy the message and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 27 17:57:21 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 27, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> During the recent list latency (what happened, anyway?) I tracked the >> problem to a defective WD2793 FDC chip. These appear to be just about pure >> unobtanium, however. Besides eBay, does anyone know of a source for >> onsie-twosies? > > Unicorn Electronics (http://www.unicornelectronics.com/) has them for eight > bucks. Many thanks, Dave! I thought I checked their site, but may be getting senile. Just ordered a couple. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 27 18:00:43 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 19:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on >> eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the >> Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and >> schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and >> that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that >> point. > > I don;t have the data sheet in front of me (and I certainly don't haev > the 1050 schematics here), but if that signal name 'NTRACK00' means the > obvious thing, it's _not_ Track0. In other words it should be low when > the head is on track0. That threw me as well. There must be a misprint somewhere, since the unit works just fine when I substitute a known-good 2793 from another drive. Just ordered a couple of them and hope to get this thing up and running soon. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 27 18:03:20 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 19:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large Asst. of STD Bus components available Message-ID: I have inventoried my collection of STD Bus boards, docs and enclosures. There's a lot of stuff there, complete with documentation for almost 99% of it. About 1/3 of the boards are still sealed in the original bags. I really, really want to move this as an entire lot. If anyone is interested, please e-mail privately and I'll send you a list. Steve -- From jrr at flippers.com Tue May 27 20:49:07 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:49:07 -0700 Subject: Apple B&W monitor schematic needed G090S In-Reply-To: <200805271526.m4RFQVuU008449@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805271526.m4RFQVuU008449@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483CBA13.40903@flippers.com> Anyone have this schematic for the Apple B&W 9" monitor? I have one that I am using, but the screen bias is way off so the screen is overdriven (horizontal retrace lines showing). Need to find if it is an adjustment or a bad/leaky capacitor. Thanks, John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 28 02:10:58 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:10:58 +0200 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: Andrew, I have one, it's not IBM but third-party. We used it to test XT's, I'll make you a image. It is 64k but I'll check if it's readable. And I should have the manual some where, but it's a very simple user interface. And it's does test the hardware. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Andrew Lynch Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 3:37 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: IBM XT diagnostic ROM Hi, Has anyone have or know where to get an IBM XT (5160) diagnostic ROM? I am trying to revive an original IBM XT motherboard which is nonresponsive and gives no error codes (beep or POST). I am not even sure such a ROM exists but it would be a 27C256 style EPROM that plugs into an IBM XT motherboard to help fault isolate an almost completely dead unit. The motherboard CPU seems to be working based on a quick exam with the oscilloscope. However, the motherboard's initialization / boot process is not making it to start up the video display before it hangs or crashes. Obviously, something is broken but I haven't isolated exactly what yet. If anyone can help, I would much appreciate it. Thank you in advance. Andrew Lynch From rachael at telefisk.org Wed May 28 03:31:55 2008 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:31:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483C7479.29684.2611EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805280028.m4S0SX0f014918@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483C7479.29684.2611EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:22:28 -0500 >> From: Jim Leonard > >> You only need about 133MHz for what you're doing. Some ideas: >> >> - Use a 133Mhz PC >> - Use a laptop (better power management than a 1999-era desktop PC) > > Thanks. > > I thought of both, but still too power-hungry. How about something > that runs off of a wall wart? My DSL modem with ARM7 CPU runs Linux > and supports ethernet--it just don't have a sound chip. I don't need > video a CD-ROM, hard disk or floppy; just network access with the > ability to flash from the network. Even one of the VIA C3 boards is > more than I need. Have alook at the supported hardware on the openvrt site, and find a router with two usb conectors, that way you can hang a external usb soundcard and a usb flash on it. I am using a asus WL-500g box here which boots debian of the flashdisk, and drives a webcam. Those boxes are resonable powerfull onces, with 4mb internal flash and 16mb memory. Most of those boxes are mips based, so its easy to put a debian on a stick and use that, the openwrt distribution is a bit limited itself, but a small script to setup, the root drive, mount and then change the rootdrive to the usbstick helps. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 28 05:31:11 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 06:31:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2661.1211970671@mini> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the >streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. This may not help you, but I bought a Freecom Musicpal and I love it. But all of the streams I listen to are MP3. -brad From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 28 07:24:28 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:24:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <483D4EFC.7090708@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the > streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. > How about this, it's already been done, Internet Tabletop Radio There others like this but not all of them support RA http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7588734311.html Acoustic Energy says its WiFi radio will support stations broadcasting *Real Audio*, *WMV*, and *MP3* streams, =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 28 07:58:34 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <20080527210531.S38357@shell.lmi.net> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080527210531.S38357@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200805281300.JAA01355@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> How the heck is a diagnostic ROM going to diagnose a dead CPU? I >> must be missing something here... Well, if it's a little more than just ROM but fits in a ROM socket, it could, for example, notice a lack of read cycles. If it's enough more than ROM it could run a CPU emulator and notice that it isn't obeying the instructions it's fetching (though that's hard to do right, since the ROM socket doesn't see things like interrupts or RAM). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed May 28 07:54:48 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:54:48 -0500 Subject: Vintage computer films In-Reply-To: <483BEB4C.23687.494CF3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <483BEB4C.23687.494CF3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <483D5618.3030304@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The last film clip from a Britcom features an "intelligent" luggable > named Bourenmouth, What machine was it before it received its paint > job? Hiya, HP 64000 apparently. Thanks for the link - some nice stuff there. cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Wed May 28 09:18:32 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <483C7479.29684.2611EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080528141832.7A68C57078@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Chuck Guzis > > > Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:22:28 -0500 > > From: Jim Leonard > > > You only need about 133MHz for what you're doing. Some ideas: > > > > - Use a 133Mhz PC > > - Use a laptop (better power management than a 1999-era desktop PC) > > Thanks. > > I thought of both, but still too power-hungry. How about something > that runs off of a wall wart? My DSL modem with ARM7 CPU runs Linux > and supports ethernet--it just don't have a sound chip. I don't need > video a CD-ROM, hard disk or floppy; just network access with the > ability to flash from the network. Even one of the VIA C3 boards is > more than I need. > > Any other ideas? > I would suggest the MediaMVP, but it does not support RA streams. Only MP3 with the included software, MP3, OGG, AC3, FLAC and uncompressed WAV with the open-source media player. Cheers, Bryan From dundas at caltech.edu Wed May 28 09:50:31 2008 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:50:31 -0700 Subject: Looking for old DDJ Mac articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:27 PM -0400 5/27/08, Richard A. Cini wrote: >Date: 9/12/85 >Purchased from: NYNEX/DataGo (this was NYNEX's business center retail chain. >NYNEX was the merged phone companies of New York Telephone and New England >Bell after the 1984 consent decree which broke-up AT&T) > >Mac 512k - $2795 >Imagewriter 80CO - $545 >IWI Cable Kit - $50 >Mac External Disk - $495 >Mac Numeric Keypad - $70 >Mac Modem 1200 - $495 >Mac Carry Case - $90 >Maxell 3.5" Disks - $50 >MacTerminal - $99 >MSWord Mac - $195 >Mac 68000 PDS - $195 >MSBASIC - $150 >MSExcel - $429 I recently unearthed the receipt for my first Mac as well, 2/4/85: Mac 512k, External Disk, Imagewriter: $3024.95 [These were as one item, not broken out. One box 3.5" disks: $39.39; MacTerminal: $99.00; Printer stand: $18.12; RamDisk: $29.29. John From amouses at gmail.com Wed May 28 10:22:56 2008 From: amouses at gmail.com (Marcus Bennett) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:22:56 +0200 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM Message-ID: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> Andrew et al, For some time I've seen these extremely cheap PC diagnostics cards posted on ebay Search www.ebay.com for pc diagnostic isa and you get something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/PCI-USB-LPT-Analyzer-Diagnostic-POST-Test-Cards-ISA-PC_W0QQitemZ330239798266QQihZ014QQcategoryZ60265QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem How about somebody get the ISA version of such a card and see if it's at all useful. I suppose it might be able to help you fault find a seemingle dead system though I am somewhat suspicious. Regards marcus. -- marcus bennett amouses at gmail.com From starmaster at gmail.com Wed May 28 10:42:32 2008 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:42:32 -0600 Subject: Commodore Equipment wanted Message-ID: <5736e8250805280842r5b1b27bfx2fde2afcef46df34@mail.gmail.com> Not as high tech as others, but I still love the Commodore's. C64's, PET's SX-64's (drool!) and their associated hardware, books and software. If anyone is looking for a good home, please let me know. I'm in Colorado, just south of Denver. Thank you. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 28 11:16:13 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:16:13 -0400 Subject: MCT-EPROM In-Reply-To: <015101c8c060$f9ac6f40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <015101c8c060$f9ac6f40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <467938ED-4BF4-4138-8692-CD8FB25FAD5B@neurotica.com> On May 27, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I have an old EPROM programmer for the PC. It uses an 8 bit ISA card > labeled "MCT-EPROM". JDR used to sell these in the 1980's for 24 & > 28 pin > EPROM programming. It is a fairly simple device but it doesn't > appear to be > working. > > JDR still has the software on their FTP site for the programmer, I > think. I > believe it uses the "MOD-EPROM" software from the "MOD_EPRO.ZIP" > file. It > appears there are several pieces of software on the JDR site which > support > this programmer > > Whenever I start the MOD-EPROM software it says it cannot find the > controller board. It is looking for a device a 0x2A0 but > apparently can't > find it. The software does NOT allow the IO address to be changed > and there > are no configuration jumpers on the controller board. > > The ISA controller board installed in 486sx (25 MHz) but the > software could > not find it. I tried with a P3 (450 MHz) and got the same result. > > Does anyone have one of these EPROM programmers and can lend me a > hand? I > need to confirm some things in order to determine if this part is > working or > not. It may be I am using the wrong software or too fast of a > computer. I had one of these many, many years ago. If memory serves, it worked fine in an 8MHz XT clone, but failed in a 16MHz 80286...suggesting bus speed sensitivity. The software not detecting the board was the exact symptom. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed May 28 11:38:04 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:38:04 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs Message-ID: <00fb01c8c0e1$342ae4a0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> I was messing around with my SX-64 (which is on ePay as a working unit) yesterday, having located some software & a joystick for it. I was going to take a few photos of the new bits, etc.; for adding to the listing. Then: *sharp snap/crack noise*, lights go out. Aaaargh! OK, first things first: There was no burning smell, and no (visible) magic smoke released. The fuse wire in the glass fuse has been vapourised; the mains fuse survived. I replaced the fuse, which has not since blown, but the PSU is deader than a dead thing that's been dead for a week. Some careful poking around with the multimeter (before the multimeter went bang - ffs, I must have an anti-midas touch this week), then the oscilliscope, reveals that a secondary transformer on the PSU has failed. I presume it went dead short, then burnt itself + the fuse out simultaneously; hence the reason the replacement fuse hasn't blown. So, what I need to do now is replace the transformer, or get it repaired somehow (ideally before Sunday, when the ePay auction runs out - or, to definitely know it is unfixable in that timescale & thus cancel the auction). What I DO have, which might make a repair feasible, is a second SX-64; the only difference is, this one has a US (117v) PSU. Obviously, the primary transformer windings are going to be different, but is it possible/likely that the secondary transformer will be the same? Going by the part nos. I'm not terribly hopeful: UK Part no: TDK 68-0409 B8326A US Part No: TDK 68-0407 B8309A A quick google on any of those numbers reveals nothing... I don't have the means to create 117v 60hz power, so I can't test that way - and even if I could, it turns out that the US PSU has taken a wallop at some point, breaking the circuit board. :( Hey ho... any help gratefully received. TIA! Best Regards, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 28 12:01:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:01:20 -0700 Subject: MCT-EPROM In-Reply-To: <200805281421.m4SEKpPX022701@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805281421.m4SEKpPX022701@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483D2D70.9322.67B31E@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:20:10 -0400 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > I have an old EPROM programmer for the PC. It uses an 8 bit ISA card > labeled "MCT-EPROM". JDR used to sell these in the 1980's for 24 & 28 > pin > Whenever I start the MOD-EPROM software it says it cannot find the > controller board. It is looking for a device a 0x2A0 but apparently > can't find it. The software does NOT allow the IO address to be > changed and there are no configuration jumpers on the controller board. > The ISA controller board installed in 486sx (25 MHz) but the software > could not find it. I tried with a P3 (450 MHz) and got the same > result. I've got one of these--actually a no-name, but the same Taiwanese unit. At one time, I think these were also sold under the "Sunshine" name. You could get them with different "heads"--anywhere from a single ZIF socket to 8 or so; maybe even 16. I have the 4-socket version. You've answered your own query. This board is strictly 5150/5160/XT clone territory. IIRC, even a PC AT doesn't work--at least with the software that I have (I haven't tried JDR's). I believe that this is due to many CPU-based timing loops. I remember patching the code to detect the board so it would run in a 386/20, only to have it fail to program EPROMs, whereupon I gave up and stuck it back in the XT, there to stay until the present. This forms the basis of my suspicion that CPU loops are used exclusively for timing--not a really bad idea back when the world was filled with 8088 systems. Certainly, it wasn't alone in this respect. Get that 5160 going and you should be fine. I suspect though, that you're faced with a chicken-and-egg situtation--you need to get the EPROM burner going so you can get the 5160 running. Source code for the programming software should make things easier to modify for faster machines, but I suspect that it's unobtainium. Disassembling is another option, but not one that I'm interested in, as I have a parallel-port driven programmer that can still handle the older EPROMs just fine. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 28 12:10:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:10:38 -0700 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <200805281421.m4SEKpPX022701@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805281421.m4SEKpPX022701@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483D2F9E.19888.703608@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:10:58 +0200 > From: "Rik" > I have one, it's not IBM but third-party. We used it to test XT's, I'll > make you a image. It is 64k but I'll check if it's readable. And I > should have the manual some where, but it's a very simple user > interface. And it's does test the hardware. I don't know if mine is the same as Rik's, but I do have the Landmark "Professional PC Diagnostics" kit that comes with ROMs for both the XT and AT. I'll be happy to send an image along if you think it would help. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 28 12:33:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:33:37 -0700 Subject: OT: Low-power real-audio player In-Reply-To: <200805281421.m4SEKpPX022701@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805281421.m4SEKpPX022701@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483D3501.9248.854181@cclist.sydex.com> > Message: 28 > Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:24:28 -0400 > From: Dan Roganti > How about this, it's already been done, Internet Tabletop Radio > There others like this but not all of them support RA > http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7588734311.html > Acoustic Energy says its WiFi radio will support stations broadcasting > *Real Audio*, *WMV*, and *MP3* streams, I saw that one, but it would take a bit of hacking to get it to what I need (i.e., I don't need speakers and prefer a 10/100 baseT connection rather than WiFi--and I want to be able to change my selections via local network (e.g. telnet) as the unit would be located a considerable distance from my listening location. And the $300 price tag is a bit of a stopper also. Still, I really like a lot of the boxes on the linuxdevices site--too bad that the really good ones never made it past the prototype stage. Cheers, Chuck From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 28 12:38:04 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:38:04 +0200 Subject: Transformer repairs Message-ID: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800> Ade, I think you mean the small transformer with 6 wires attached, this transformer has 2 * 9VAC outputs and one AC-line input (230 or 110V depends on region) This transformer is the supply for the regulator IC's in the PSU the regulators are places on two small PCB's, on the large PCB there is a rectifier (Greatz) witch you have to check. If thats alright you have a reasonable change the PSU works after replacing the transformer with a similar type 2 * 9VAC 3 to 5VA. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ade Vickers Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 18:38 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: Transformer repairs I was messing around with my SX-64 (which is on ePay as a working unit) yesterday, having located some software & a joystick for it. I was going to take a few photos of the new bits, etc.; for adding to the listing. Then: *sharp snap/crack noise*, lights go out. Aaaargh! OK, first things first: There was no burning smell, and no (visible) magic smoke released. The fuse wire in the glass fuse has been vapourised; the mains fuse survived. I replaced the fuse, which has not since blown, but the PSU is deader than a dead thing that's been dead for a week. Some careful poking around with the multimeter (before the multimeter went bang - ffs, I must have an anti-midas touch this week), then the oscilliscope, reveals that a secondary transformer on the PSU has failed. I presume it went dead short, then burnt itself + the fuse out simultaneously; hence the reason the replacement fuse hasn't blown. So, what I need to do now is replace the transformer, or get it repaired somehow (ideally before Sunday, when the ePay auction runs out - or, to definitely know it is unfixable in that timescale & thus cancel the auction). What I DO have, which might make a repair feasible, is a second SX-64; the only difference is, this one has a US (117v) PSU. Obviously, the primary transformer windings are going to be different, but is it possible/likely that the secondary transformer will be the same? Going by the part nos. I'm not terribly hopeful: UK Part no: TDK 68-0409 B8326A US Part No: TDK 68-0407 B8309A A quick google on any of those numbers reveals nothing... I don't have the means to create 117v 60hz power, so I can't test that way - and even if I could, it turns out that the US PSU has taken a wallop at some point, breaking the circuit board. :( Hey ho... any help gratefully received. TIA! Best Regards, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed May 28 13:11:52 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:11:52 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800> Message-ID: <010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Rik wrote: > I think you mean the small transformer with 6 wires attached, > this transformer has 2 * 9VAC outputs and one AC-line input > (230 or 110V depends on region) This transformer is the > supply for the regulator IC's in the PSU the regulators are > places on two small PCB's, on the large PCB there is a > rectifier (Greatz) witch you have to check. > If thats alright you have a reasonable change the PSU works > after replacing the transformer with a similar type 2 * 9VAC 3 to 5VA. Hi Rik, There are 3 transformers on the board: UNNAMED is the largest transformer, and outputs 9VAC for the monitor (blue wires), and A.N. Other voltage which goes into 1 side of the second rectifier (red wires) T1 is the mid-sized one, and is the one that's blown on my PSU. It has 12 pins out in total, 6 per side. T3 is the small one (although it's tall on the 240v board, and squat on the 110v board) with 6 wires (3 per side). I guess UNNAMED may be T2, but I can't see the label. T1 & unnamed on the 240v board are the same size as their contemporaries on the 110v board. T3 is half the size on the 110v board. I guess I should provide a bit more info too.... I know the UNNAMED transformer is OK, as it's outputing volts to both the monitor & the board. T3 also operational. T1's primary (mains side) windings are passing current, but there's nothing whatsoever on the secondary side. My guess, however, is that the fault is in the T1 primary coil; otherwise it wouldn't have made such a nasty crack noise, and vapourised the fuse. I can't believe that T1 is the same between both boards, as one side of it is connected to the mains. That said, it looks like it's only getting a subset of the mains power - the top of each peak has already been rectified off, if my oscilloscope is to be believed. I'm not sure about the rectifier; I've swapped out one of them with its 110v counterpart (it's all on the LV side, so I'm guessing it's an identical part), but as it's only getting power to one side, there's basically bog all going into the 12v daughter board. Many thanks for your assistance, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 28 13:37:53 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <200805281300.JAA01355@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <016301c8c063$5be9bf80$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <20080527200113.R38357@shell.lmi.net> <200805272354.49287.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080527210531.S38357@shell.lmi.net> <200805281300.JAA01355@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20080528111545.Q72451@shell.lmi.net> > >> How the heck is a diagnostic ROM going to diagnose a dead CPU? I > >> must be missing something here... Yeah, I've said some stupid things on this list, and yesterday's was record breaking. On Wed, 28 May 2008, der Mouse wrote: > Well, if it's a little more than just ROM but fits in a ROM socket, it > could, for example, notice a lack of read cycles. If it's enough more > than ROM it could run a CPU emulator and notice that it isn't obeying > the instructions it's fetching (though that's hard to do right, since > the ROM socket doesn't see things like interrupts or RAM). Fischer's setup was just a ROM (EPROM?), plus he had a serial board that was hardware configured for 9600, so that it would not be dependent on the initialization code to setup the port. Now, if you had a setup that connected to the bus, to the ROM sockets, to the RAM sockets, and had a CPU plus connection to the 8088 and 8087 sockets, . . . There was once a POST card that did CLAIM to test everything, in true marketing form: "Power lights good, no Power On Self Test codes = "Bad CPU", replace motherboard". Tony would be happy to know that they didn't stay in business very long. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 28 13:39:01 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:39:01 +0200 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800> <010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800> Ade, Maybe this is some help. http://www.zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/index. html I do have a 22MB pdf file with the schematics, if you got a ftp I'll upload it. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ade Vickers Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 20:12 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: Transformer repairs Rik wrote: > I think you mean the small transformer with 6 wires attached, this > transformer has 2 * 9VAC outputs and one AC-line input (230 or 110V > depends on region) This transformer is the supply for the regulator > IC's in the PSU the regulators are places on two small PCB's, on the > large PCB there is a rectifier (Greatz) witch you have to check. > If thats alright you have a reasonable change the PSU works after > replacing the transformer with a similar type 2 * 9VAC 3 to 5VA. Hi Rik, There are 3 transformers on the board: UNNAMED is the largest transformer, and outputs 9VAC for the monitor (blue wires), and A.N. Other voltage which goes into 1 side of the second rectifier (red wires) T1 is the mid-sized one, and is the one that's blown on my PSU. It has 12 pins out in total, 6 per side. T3 is the small one (although it's tall on the 240v board, and squat on the 110v board) with 6 wires (3 per side). I guess UNNAMED may be T2, but I can't see the label. T1 & unnamed on the 240v board are the same size as their contemporaries on the 110v board. T3 is half the size on the 110v board. I guess I should provide a bit more info too.... I know the UNNAMED transformer is OK, as it's outputing volts to both the monitor & the board. T3 also operational. T1's primary (mains side) windings are passing current, but there's nothing whatsoever on the secondary side. My guess, however, is that the fault is in the T1 primary coil; otherwise it wouldn't have made such a nasty crack noise, and vapourised the fuse. I can't believe that T1 is the same between both boards, as one side of it is connected to the mains. That said, it looks like it's only getting a subset of the mains power - the top of each peak has already been rectified off, if my oscilloscope is to be believed. I'm not sure about the rectifier; I've swapped out one of them with its 110v counterpart (it's all on the LV side, so I'm guessing it's an identical part), but as it's only getting power to one side, there's basically bog all going into the 12v daughter board. Many thanks for your assistance, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From drb at msu.edu Wed May 28 14:09:53 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:09:53 -0400 Subject: last-minute TI-990 available Message-ID: <200805281909.m4SJ9rC8017504@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I was just told there's a TI-990 mini available in the Lansing, MI area. It's going to the scrapper if not claimed in the next day or two. Included are a CPU in a tall single rack, two floor-standing removable-pack disk drives (probably 80MB), a stack of disk packs, and "fairly complete" documentation. I have only seen photos, and never worked with these systems, so don't know much more. http://www.somethingthatdoesntsuck.com/misccrapo/Images/ti990/ I'm trying to buy the machine a few more days before the scrapper, but I wouldn't count on that. I may be able to store the machine in a rental cube for a limited period. I will try to save the disk packs and doco regardless of whether the machine gets saved. I don't believe they want money for the system, though I didn't have a specific discussion. If you're interested, get in touch with me off-list at the above e-mail address. De From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed May 28 14:20:00 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:20:00 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800> Message-ID: <012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Rik wrote: > Maybe this is some help. > http://www.zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c6 > 4/sx-64/index. > html > > I do have a 22MB pdf file with the schematics, if you got a > ftp I'll upload it. > Hi Rik, Thanks - I found the schematics via Wikipedia (of all places); and the text file too (can't remember where that was linked from). >From the description, I think it's the "+12 volt switcher (2.8 Amps)" that's blown; the question is, where the heck would I get one of those from?? Here's the pin-out (from the solder side, heatsink towards you): 240v o o 0v 240v o o 0v n/c o o 0v o 0v n/c o o 12v o 12v 0v o o 12v 0v o o 12v Yes, there are two additional pins stuck out of the side; it looks like the taps have been taken out separately. The 6 0v/12v connections are a guess, based on the fact there are pins, and they're soldered into the same pads as the outboard 0v and 12v. They may, of cours, all be n/c Also, 0v is not *really* 0v, given that there's AC going in; except that it's already been through a rectifier, which seems odd to me. Is this something to do with it being a switching PSU? >From what I can tell, this board is designed to produce 9vac, +12v and +5v. I could fabricate an entirely new PSU, or even hacksaw up a PC supply (an old AT type with a physical on/off switch) to go in this one's place; but it'd be nice to keep it reasonably authentic. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 28 15:11:34 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 16:11:34 -0400 Subject: SN7523N datasheet In-Reply-To: <483C3B54.2000105@flippers.com> References: <4834666A.2060604@adrianwise.co.uk> <483C3B54.2000105@flippers.com> Message-ID: <200805281611.34367.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 May 2008 12:48, John Robertson wrote: > According to my 1978 IC Master (everyone should have a copy of at least > one of these books) I've been wanting a copy of one of those for *years*... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 28 15:17:12 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 16:17:12 -0400 Subject: Apple B&W monitor schematic needed G090S In-Reply-To: <483CBA13.40903@flippers.com> References: <200805271526.m4RFQVuU008449@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483CBA13.40903@flippers.com> Message-ID: <200805281617.13187.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 May 2008 21:49, John Robertson wrote: > Anyone have this schematic for the Apple B&W 9" monitor? I have one that > I am using, but the screen bias is way off so the screen is overdriven > (horizontal retrace lines showing). Need to find if it is an adjustment > or a bad/leaky capacitor. No schematic, but look and see if there's a small board on the base of the CRT. Usually is on most stuff of relatively recent manufacture, and that's where they'd put the adjustment, or at least they do with color stuff. You'll also find the pins of the CRT labeled in many cases, which makes it easy to determine the bias of the tube -- cathode voltage and g1 voltage should be very different, at least 20-25V for a mono monitor, maybe even more, depending on the HV. Measure those and post back and we'll see what it looks like from there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 28 15:22:15 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 14:22:15 -0600 Subject: SN7523N datasheet In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 May 2008 16:11:34 -0400. <200805281611.34367.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200805281611.34367.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Tuesday 27 May 2008 12:48, John Robertson wrote: > > According to my 1978 IC Master (everyone should have a copy of at least > > one of these books)=20 > > I've been wanting a copy of one of those for *years*... I think I got one eventually, but when I did, it didn't seem as satisfying as I thought it would be. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 28 15:30:59 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SN7523N datasheet In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 28, 8 02:22:15 pm" Message-ID: <200805282030.m4SKUxnC008330@floodgap.com> > > > According to my 1978 IC Master (everyone should have a copy of at least > > > one of these books) > > > > I've been wanting a copy of one of those for *years*... > > I think I got one eventually, but when I did, it didn't seem as > satisfying as I thought it would be. For one thing, the centerfold was really ugly. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Male Macintosh geeks are so predictable. All we think about is X. ---------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 28 15:32:15 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 May 2008, Marcus Bennett wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/PCI-USB-LPT-Analyzer-Diagnostic-POST-Test-Cards-ISA-PC_W0QQitemZ330239798266QQihZ014QQcategoryZ60265QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem My favorite line of the description is: "If the pivotal part is OK, you can have a test of the parts that unimportant, this may not halt the work even if any error occurs" > How about somebody get the ISA version of such a card and see if it's at all > useful. > I suppose it might be able to help you fault find a seemingle dead system > though I am somewhat suspicious. What you have found is called a Power On Self Test card, or "POST card". During the cold start process, the computer sends numbers at various stages to a port. By putting in a card that decodes the port and displays those numbers, you can see which stages of the start up process succeeded. It will only work if the computer is making it at least partway through the cold start boot process, and will certainly not tell you anything if the CPU is dead, no matter what some brain-dead moron might say. (Well, OK, some also have a few LEDs to tell you if the power supply is live, etc.) They used to be readily available from JDR, etc. In fact, one of the magazines published a DIY version that was an exact match for the one that JDR sold. In addition to trouble-shooting boot problems, they can be incredibly useful in software debugging, (not quite as useful as an NMI based debugger). Sometimes, it isn't feasable to insert enough code to display a "milestone" point on the video, but OUTing a value to a port can be squeezed in in a lot more places. "The program made it to location L133, therefore, the problem must be betwenn there and the next breakpoint." "Why didn't it take that JG conditional jump?? Oh, yeah. 81H is "ABOVE" 7FH, not "GREATER THAN"" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 28 15:21:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:21:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple B&W monitor schematic needed G090S In-Reply-To: <483CBA13.40903@flippers.com> from "John Robertson" at May 27, 8 06:49:07 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone have this schematic for the Apple B&W 9" monitor? I have one that > I am using, but the screen bias is way off so the screen is overdriven > (horizontal retrace lines showing). Need to find if it is an adjustment > or a bad/leaky capacitor. Well, unless somebody has been inside there with a screwdriver, the adjustments are not going to have moved. Which means if there's a now a fault then something has failed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 28 15:11:57 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:11:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <483C88FE.3040509@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at May 27, 8 04:19:42 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > [3] It was given to my school (the worst thing to do to any piece of > > historic equipment IMHO). It didn't work, the teachers couldn't see the > > point of it, and alas before I got to hear of it, some idiot had started > > raiding it for the precision resistors. I realised what it was before too > > much damage had been done, and managed ot get them to give it to me. But > > it's going to be a lot of work to get going again. > > > I suspect the resistors will not be hard to replace, as resistor quality Otaining replacement resistors is not a problem. The problem is that the guy who started stripping it did not (obviously) document what he was ripping apart. So I have no idea what resistors were removed, or how they were connected. This thing is built on tagboards, the resistors could have gone in several different orientations. And wires were cut to get to bits of the instrument :-( No, I don't have a servive manual, or a scheamtic. I doubt I'll ever get an official one. The only possible way forward seems to be to work out what I have and work out what would most likely have been added to make it work. > has gone up over the years. What is sad is the loss of well designed > equipment since the puter era. Agreed. I am not sure what you mean by 'puter era', but there were a number of post-war measuring instruments, etc, that while not directely computer-related (or even digital) are certainly worth preserving. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 28 15:15:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:15:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at May 27, 8 07:00:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 27 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > >> Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on > >> eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the > >> Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and > >> schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and > >> that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that > >> point. > > > > I don;t have the data sheet in front of me (and I certainly don't haev > > the 1050 schematics here), but if that signal name 'NTRACK00' means the > > obvious thing, it's _not_ Track0. In other words it should be low when > > the head is on track0. > > That threw me as well. There must be a misprint somewhere, since the unit > works just fine when I substitute a known-good 2793 from another drive. I have checked the WD279X data sheet, and that pin is certainly active-low. It's shown with a bar over it on the pinout diagram and in the table of signals, it's also descried (under the 'Restore' command) as being asserted when low. Now, I suppose it's possible that your defective 2793 had a short from this pin to Vcc, so that the track0 senosr circuit couldn't pull it low. That would make it test high all the time. But if it's low normally, goes high when the head is on track 0, and yet a new 2793 fixes the problem, I don't know what the heck is going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 28 15:15:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:15:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Atari 1050 diskette drive repair In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at May 27, 8 07:00:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 27 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > >> Anyone have experience with these? I have a defective unit (purchased on > >> eBay - sad story) that tries to bash the drive head to death against the > >> Track 0 stop when turned on. I picked up the service manual and > >> schematics and was able to verify that the Track 0 sensor was working and > >> that that NTRACK00 (pin 34) on the 2793 FDC chip is pulled high at that > >> point. > > > > I don;t have the data sheet in front of me (and I certainly don't haev > > the 1050 schematics here), but if that signal name 'NTRACK00' means the > > obvious thing, it's _not_ Track0. In other words it should be low when > > the head is on track0. > > That threw me as well. There must be a misprint somewhere, since the unit > works just fine when I substitute a known-good 2793 from another drive. I have checked the WD279X data sheet, and that pin is certainly active-low. It's shown with a bar over it on the pinout diagram and in the table of signals, it's also descried (under the 'Restore' command) as being asserted when low. Now, I suppose it's possible that your defective 2793 had a short from this pin to Vcc, so that the track0 senosr circuit couldn't pull it low. That would make it test high all the time. But if it's low normally, goes high when the head is on track 0, and yet a new 2793 fixes the problem, I don't know what the heck is going on. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 28 15:49:36 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:49:36 -0500 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <483DC560.7000206@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > What you have found is called a Power On Self Test card, or "POST card". > > During the cold start process, the computer sends numbers at various > stages to a port. By putting in a card that decodes the port and displays > those numbers, you can see which stages of the start up process succeeded. > > It will only work if the computer is making it at least partway through > the cold start boot process, and will certainly not tell you anything if > the CPU is dead, no matter what some brain-dead moron might say. (Well, > OK, some also have a few LEDs to tell you if the power supply is live, > etc.) It was my understanding that only AT-class machines (by age, not necessarily by architecture type) wrote to that port. I've never seen a PC or XT (or clone thereof) motherboard/BIOS write to that port. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 28 15:46:12 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 16:46:12 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200805281646.12843.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 May 2008 16:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > They used to be readily available from JDR, etc. I remember people trying to sell us one back when we had the shop... > In fact, one of the magazines published a DIY version that was an exact > match for the one that JDR sold. Do you happen to recall any more detail on that? I've always wondered how those worked, and a magazine article would be neat to see on it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 28 16:02:05 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 14:02:05 -0700 Subject: last-minute TI-990 available Message-ID: <483DC84D.6020102@bitsavers.org> If you save any of the hardware, try to save the top cpu chassis. It looks pretty late model. From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Wed May 28 16:12:21 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:12:21 +0200 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800> <012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> You could try one of the CBM clubs, there should be someone who has some spares.. The other option is rewinding the transformer, not the most thrilling option.. The last i had, was suffering of a bad 9vac transformer that one I replaced and the PSU was up again. -RIk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ade Vickers Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 21:20 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: Transformer repairs Rik wrote: > Maybe this is some help. > http://www.zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c6 > 4/sx-64/index. > html > > I do have a 22MB pdf file with the schematics, if you got a ftp I'll > upload it. > Hi Rik, Thanks - I found the schematics via Wikipedia (of all places); and the text file too (can't remember where that was linked from). >From the description, I think it's the "+12 volt switcher (2.8 Amps)" >that's blown; the question is, where the heck would I get one of those from?? Here's the pin-out (from the solder side, heatsink towards you): 240v o o 0v 240v o o 0v n/c o o 0v o 0v n/c o o 12v o 12v 0v o o 12v 0v o o 12v Yes, there are two additional pins stuck out of the side; it looks like the taps have been taken out separately. The 6 0v/12v connections are a guess, based on the fact there are pins, and they're soldered into the same pads as the outboard 0v and 12v. They may, of cours, all be n/c Also, 0v is not *really* 0v, given that there's AC going in; except that it's already been through a rectifier, which seems odd to me. Is this something to do with it being a switching PSU? >From what I can tell, this board is designed to produce 9vac, +12v and +5v. I could fabricate an entirely new PSU, or even hacksaw up a PC supply (an old AT type with a physical on/off switch) to go in this one's place; but it'd be nice to keep it reasonably authentic. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 28 16:47:17 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 14:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <200805281646.12843.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> <200805281646.12843.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080528144145.E86635@shell.lmi.net> [POST card] On Wed, 28 May 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Do you happen to recall any more detail on that? I've always wondered how > those worked, and a magazine article would be neat to see on it... It's unlikely that I can find it in a reasonable time. However, with a little looking around, . . . http://members.tripod.com/~bbright/information/postcard.htm -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 28 18:38:50 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:38:50 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <483DED0A.3070805@comcast.net> Marcus Bennett wrote: > Andrew et al, > > > For some time I've seen these extremely cheap PC diagnostics cards posted on > ebay > > Search www.ebay.com for pc diagnostic isa > > and you get something like this > > http://cgi.ebay.com/PCI-USB-LPT-Analyzer-Diagnostic-POST-Test-Cards-ISA-PC_W0QQitemZ330239798266QQihZ014QQcategoryZ60265QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > How about somebody get the ISA version of such a card and see if it's at all > useful. > > I suppose it might be able to help you fault find a seemingle dead system > though I am somewhat suspicious. > > > Regards marcus. > The ISA bus version is still available Here's one; http://www.winfordeng.com/products/pst44.php =Dan [ enjoy Memorial Day and Remember VFW Post 118 ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 28 19:12:44 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <483DED0A.3070805@comcast.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <483DED0A.3070805@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2008, Dan Roganti wrote: > The ISA bus version is still available > Here's one; > http://www.winfordeng.com/products/pst44.php I have one in my junkpile that I come across every month or so while looking for something else. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 28 19:15:12 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <483DED0A.3070805@comcast.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <483DED0A.3070805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43485.64.62.206.10.1212020112.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Dan Roganti wrote about POST cards: > The ISA bus version is still available > Here's one; > http://www.winfordeng.com/products/pst44.php Some of the recent ones support both PCI and ISA bus: http://www.darkwire.com.au/html/standard_isa___pci_post_card.html http://www.elstonsystems.com/prod/pc_post_diagnostic_card.html http://www.pc-diagnostics.com/pc_diagnostics_tools/flippost_isa_pci_bus.shtml Some of those don't appear to have switch settings to allow configuration for port address 0x60 as used on the PC/XT and XT-compatible systems. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 28 19:15:51 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:15:51 -0400 Subject: N8VEM homebrew SBC PCBs Message-ID: <000301c8c121$27cda810$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi All, I did finally finish my homebrew SBC PCBs and made an order for several. The manufacturer says they should arrive about 5 Jun 2008 or so. If anyone is interested in building their own, please let me know. The details about the SBC are at: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/web/n8vem-single-board-computer-home-pa ge http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 28 19:15:51 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:15:51 -0400 Subject: MCT-EPROM Message-ID: <000401c8c121$283dcf00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> MCT-EPROM Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com Wed May 28 12:01:20 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Transformer repairs * Next message: IBM XT diagnostic ROM * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ > Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:20:10 -0400 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > I have an old EPROM programmer for the PC. It uses an 8 bit ISA card > labeled "MCT-EPROM". JDR used to sell these in the 1980's for 24 & 28 > pin > Whenever I start the MOD-EPROM software it says it cannot find the > controller board. It is looking for a device a 0x2A0 but apparently > can't find it. The software does NOT allow the IO address to be > changed and there are no configuration jumpers on the controller board. > The ISA controller board installed in 486sx (25 MHz) but the software > could not find it. I tried with a P3 (450 MHz) and got the same > result. I've got one of these--actually a no-name, but the same Taiwanese unit. At one time, I think these were also sold under the "Sunshine" name. You could get them with different "heads"--anywhere from a single ZIF socket to 8 or so; maybe even 16. I have the 4-socket version. You've answered your own query. This board is strictly 5150/5160/XT clone territory. IIRC, even a PC AT doesn't work--at least with the software that I have (I haven't tried JDR's). I believe that this is due to many CPU-based timing loops. I remember patching the code to detect the board so it would run in a 386/20, only to have it fail to program EPROMs, whereupon I gave up and stuck it back in the XT, there to stay until the present. This forms the basis of my suspicion that CPU loops are used exclusively for timing--not a really bad idea back when the world was filled with 8088 systems. Certainly, it wasn't alone in this respect. Get that 5160 going and you should be fine. I suspect though, that you're faced with a chicken-and-egg situtation--you need to get the EPROM burner going so you can get the 5160 running. Source code for the programming software should make things easier to modify for faster machines, but I suspect that it's unobtainium. Disassembling is another option, but not one that I'm interested in, as I have a parallel-port driven programmer that can still handle the older EPROMs just fine. Cheers, Chuck _____ * Previous message: Transformer repairs * Next message: IBM XT diagnostic ROM * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck, It is sort of a "chicken and egg" scenario. I have a MCT-EPROM burner I'd like to use but I agree it needs an XT clone. My XT clone is broken but fortunately I have a different EPROM burner so if I can fix the XT I should be good for the MCT-EPROM as well. Do you still have the manual for the MCT-EPROM / Sunshine programmer? If so, would you mind scanning a copy and maybe I'll ask Al to post it at Bitsavers.org. JDR is part of the history of microcomputers and practically everyone got something of theirs from JDR at some time or another. JDR is practically an institution in electronics/vintage computers. I remember ordering parts from them when I was in high school to fix my Dad's lab computers -- IBM PCs running AutoCAD. Thanks in advance! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 28 19:15:51 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:15:51 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM Message-ID: <000e01c8c121$28e49650$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> IBM XT diagnostic ROM Jim Leonard trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 28 15:49:36 CDT 2008 * Previous message: IBM XT diagnostic ROM * Next message: IBM XT diagnostic ROM * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Fred Cisin wrote: > What you have found is called a Power On Self Test card, or "POST card". > > During the cold start process, the computer sends numbers at various > stages to a port. By putting in a card that decodes the port and displays > those numbers, you can see which stages of the start up process succeeded. > > It will only work if the computer is making it at least partway through > the cold start boot process, and will certainly not tell you anything if > the CPU is dead, no matter what some brain-dead moron might say. (Well, > OK, some also have a few LEDs to tell you if the power supply is live, > etc.) It was my understanding that only AT-class machines (by age, not necessarily by architecture type) wrote to that port. I've never seen a PC or XT (or clone thereof) motherboard/BIOS write to that port. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org ) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ ________________________________ * Previous message: IBM XT diagnostic ROM * Next message: IBM XT diagnostic ROM * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ More information about the cctalk mailing list ------REPLY------ Hi, The IBM XT does send POST codes to port $60 during start up. The AT and later send more detailed codes to port $80 which almost all POST card devices support. http://bioscentral.com/postcodes/ibmbios.htm You can make your own POST card type device. I have two already but one is a dedicated AT style and the other is an AWARD SOFTWARE POSTcard Rev 1.3. Unfortunately, I do not have the manuals necessary to change the onboard configuration switches to convert it from AT only to support XT style POST codes. http://members.tripod.com/~BBright/information/postcard.htm Thanks to all who replied and for any help in repairing this classic IBM XT motherboard. Andrew Lynch ________________________________ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 28 20:21:43 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 18:21:43 -0700 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800> <012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> Message-ID: > From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:12:21 +0200 > Subject: RE: Transformer repairs > > You could try one of the CBM clubs, there should be someone who has some > spares.. > The other option is rewinding the transformer, not the most thrilling > option.. > The last i had, was suffering of a bad 9vac transformer that one I replaced > and the PSU was up again. > > -RIk > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ade Vickers > Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 21:20 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: Transformer repairs > > Rik wrote: > >> Maybe this is some help. >> http://www.zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt >> http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c6 >> 4/sx-64/index. >> html >> >> I do have a 22MB pdf file with the schematics, if you got a ftp I'll >> upload it. >> > > Hi Rik, > > Thanks - I found the schematics via Wikipedia (of all places); and the text > file too (can't remember where that was linked from). > >>From the description, I think it's the "+12 volt switcher (2.8 Amps)" >>that's > blown; the question is, where the heck would I get one of those from?? > > > Here's the pin-out (from the solder side, heatsink towards you): > > 240v o o 0v > > 240v o o 0v > > n/c o o 0v o 0v > > n/c o o 12v o 12v > > 0v o o 12v > > 0v o o 12v > > Hi Ade If it is a switcher, it sounds like you don't understand how these work. Please send a pointer to the schematic you located. We can then talk about failures in switchers. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 28 21:58:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:58:50 -0700 Subject: MCT-EPROM In-Reply-To: <200805290018.m4T0IOWd034440@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805290018.m4T0IOWd034440@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <483DB97A.21012.28AB662@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:15:51 -0400 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Do you still have the manual for the MCT-EPROM / Sunshine programmer? > If so, would you mind scanning a copy and maybe I'll ask Al to post it > at Bitsavers.org. JDR is part of the history of microcomputers and > practically everyone got something of theirs from JDR at some time or > another. JDR is practically an institution in electronics/vintage > computers. I remember ordering parts from them when I was in high > school to fix my Dad's lab computers -- IBM PCs running AutoCAD. Thanks > in advance! I've still got it, but it's pretty worthless. Basically it's a "stick the card in an empty slot, connect the cable, run the software and do what it says". No circuit diagrams, specifications, nothing, just a regurgitation of the program messages. Very typical of the "Taiwanese Awful" documentation of the time. At least the English is pretty good. JDR was no different--I've got two manuals for floppy disk controllers (PC/XT type, not AT). But for the "MCT" labeling on the title page, there's no difference between the JDR one and the vanilla brand-less Taiwanese one. Wasn't the early XT-cloning effort in Taiwan sponsored by the Taiwan government? Almost none of the clone boards had any sort of branding and the BIOSes all seemed to be the same. The manuals all look the same--bad printing in a simple paper cover. Cheers, Chuck From marvin at west.net Thu May 29 00:32:08 2008 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:32:08 -0700 Subject: CompuGraphic Flyer Message-ID: <483E3FD8.5DA1242A@west.net> Someone about a year ago was talking about a relative working for CompuGraphic and was looking for information. In cleaning up today, I found the flyer again that I said I would send, but forgot who it was (Rich Cini???) Whoever it was, let me know and give me your mailing address and I'll put it in the mail. From spedraja at gmail.com Wed May 28 05:33:12 2008 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:33:12 +0200 Subject: NIC 7104 (Arpanet Protocol Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello. I should like to obtain one copy of the NIC 7104 (Arpanet Protocol Handbook). It was published many years ago by SRI, but actually it is completely dissapeared. Could someone help, please ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From jrr at flippers.com Wed May 28 11:51:58 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:51:58 -0700 Subject: SN7523N datasheet In-Reply-To: <4834666A.2060604@adrianwise.co.uk> References: <4834666A.2060604@adrianwise.co.uk> Message-ID: <483D8DAE.9020707@flippers.com> Adrian Wise wrote: > Does anyone have a datasheet for a Texas SN7523N? > > I have a datasheet for a Signetics SN7523 (dual core sense amp), and was > expecting that the TI part would be equivalent, but it seems to behave > differently. I'm trying to figure out if I have a bad part or my > assumption that they're equivalent parts is mistaken. > > Adrian > > According to my 1978 IC Master (everyone should have a copy of at least one of these books) the Alternate Source Directory listing for the TI SN7523N is National DS7523, Signetics 7523, or Silicon G SG7523. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From rikbos at xs4all.nl Wed May 28 12:31:29 2008 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:31:29 +0200 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <00fb01c8c0e1$342ae4a0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <00fb01c8c0e1$342ae4a0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <64EA45FCA14D4EEEB1815DC6779E8760@xp1800> Ade, I think you mean the small transformer with 6 wires attached, this transformer has 2 * 9VAC outputs and one AC-line input (230 or 110V depends on region) This transformer is the supply for the regulator IC's in the PSU the regulators are places on two small PCB's, on the large PCB there is a rectifier (Greatz) witch you have to check. If thats alright you have a reasonable change the PSU works after replacing the transformer with a similar type 2 * 9VAC 3 to 5VA. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ade Vickers Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 18:38 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: Transformer repairs I was messing around with my SX-64 (which is on ePay as a working unit) yesterday, having located some software & a joystick for it. I was going to take a few photos of the new bits, etc.; for adding to the listing. Then: *sharp snap/crack noise*, lights go out. Aaaargh! OK, first things first: There was no burning smell, and no (visible) magic smoke released. The fuse wire in the glass fuse has been vapourised; the mains fuse survived. I replaced the fuse, which has not since blown, but the PSU is deader than a dead thing that's been dead for a week. Some careful poking around with the multimeter (before the multimeter went bang - ffs, I must have an anti-midas touch this week), then the oscilliscope, reveals that a secondary transformer on the PSU has failed. I presume it went dead short, then burnt itself + the fuse out simultaneously; hence the reason the replacement fuse hasn't blown. So, what I need to do now is replace the transformer, or get it repaired somehow (ideally before Sunday, when the ePay auction runs out - or, to definitely know it is unfixable in that timescale & thus cancel the auction). What I DO have, which might make a repair feasible, is a second SX-64; the only difference is, this one has a US (117v) PSU. Obviously, the primary transformer windings are going to be different, but is it possible/likely that the secondary transformer will be the same? Going by the part nos. I'm not terribly hopeful: UK Part no: TDK 68-0409 B8326A US Part No: TDK 68-0407 B8309A A quick google on any of those numbers reveals nothing... I don't have the means to create 117v 60hz power, so I can't test that way - and even if I could, it turns out that the US PSU has taken a wallop at some point, breaking the circuit board. :( Hey ho... any help gratefully received. TIA! Best Regards, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 27/05/2008 13:25 From derschjo at msu.edu Thu May 29 00:08:05 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 22:08:05 -0700 Subject: PET 2001-8 progress... Message-ID: <483E3A35.3030501@msu.edu> So I've got my "hacked-up" PET powering up after redoing a bit of wiring on the power supply. I replaced a couple of obviously bad 74LS157's in the video generator section (legs were corroded and some had fallen off/cracked) and reflowed a couple of suspicious looking joints. The machine now powers up, the display is bright and crisp but I just get garbage characters on the display. Using my logic probe I've verified that the CPU is running, voltages appear nominal (4.9V at the CPU & RAM). The CPU seems to be running something, in that about 1-2 seconds after power up a few characters on the screen will change (not where you'd expect the COMMODORE BASIC banner to be printed, but always in the same places). Typing on the keyboard produces no effect. I've reduced the board to 4K of 2114s and tried swapping around the 2114s used for the display, but the only effect this has is to change the pattern of garbage characters displayed (interestingly (at least to me) each RAM chip produces a different pattern, which is reproducible). If I run without any video RAM installed, I just get a checkerboard pattern onscreen, which would make sense since character FF is the checkerboard tile. Unfortunately I have no idea if any of the 2114s I have are good or not, though I'd wager that they can't ALL be bad. I don't have any other machines that use them and I don't have any spares. Any suggestions on logical places to start looking from here? Thanks, Josh From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 29 03:00:23 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 03:00:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD Message-ID: These machines were much more intact about 4 months ago. It appears a gold/metal scrapper who happened to see the same photo feeds I did months back raided the abandoned offices and trashed several of the more intact systems. If anyone thinks the packs, punch card punch, card drawers, and such could be salvaged I'll privately reply to longstanding list members I can verify with the location. Salvage/scrappers/ebay dealers need not reply. Note: I don't know who owns the property so someone else will have to do some research to contact whoever owns it. Warning: Lots of punch cards, but also some system carnage that some list members might find disturbing (I know I did...) 1/27/08: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2162/2363250796_b37e7207ed.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2243/2362419043_1a87fd43aa.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2362419201_1489887724.jpg 2/30/08: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2362400257_e6c806024c.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2333/2363231636_9b08d5da33.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/2362399767_64c49ae037.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/2362399401_bebdc852ec.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3222/2362399209_b6bc556d4e.jpg 5/25/08: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2525416845_d926411135.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2177/2525416715_fe36db48a2.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/2525416593_ee848dd35d.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2315/2526235554_033dbd8ec2.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2526235416_93ea66ef6d.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/2526235280_a85f477282.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/2525415829_452f5d0777.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2525415713_3f8a3f8766.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/2526234898_ae63bcbcb2.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2525415473_12bdf7ee4f.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2331/2525415181_80143e10a3.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/2526233268_bdf5a85860.jpg From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 29 03:33:48 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:33:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: last-minute TI-990 available In-Reply-To: <483DC84D.6020102@bitsavers.org> References: <483DC84D.6020102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2008, Al Kossow wrote: > If you save any of the hardware, try to save the top cpu chassis. > It looks pretty late model. Is this a 990/12? We were given two 990/12 which we need to pick up this summer (they have been shut down last month...) The lower CPU is probably a 990/10 although I can't see any front panel buttons. Christian From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 29 08:29:33 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 07:29:33 -0600 Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 May 2008 03:00:23 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2525415713_3f8a3f8766.jpg Nice plotter. Probably worth rescuing. I would but, I'm 2,000+ miles from Baltimore. There's a TI printing terminal in the pics too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 29 09:04:55 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2525415713_3f8a3f8766.jpg You mentioned a card punch, but not being familiar with CDC equipment I didn't recognize it. Is it a manual punch or an output device? I've never seen a 96-column punch in the flesh. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu May 29 10:05:41 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 11:05:41 -0400 Subject: Tek 7904 scope at McGill in Montreal Message-ID: <4affc5e0805290805r5695852bo77e94b732ea2c94c@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, with all the talk of "classic" scopes: if anyone wants it and is in the neighborhood, a Tek 7904 scope was put out to pasture on our floor here at McGill, so I dragged it into my office. I can't keep it here for too long so if there's no interest, I'll put it out again. It's got one 7A19 Amp, a 7D11 Digital delay, and a 7B53N Dual Time Base; the fourth slot is empty (but covered). It appears to at least somewhat work: power, lights, traces, etc. It was last calibrated in 82 according to a sticker. Joe. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu May 29 11:40:29 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Announcing formation of VCF steering committee: Call for Members Message-ID: At the prodding of a small group of dedicated VCF fans and friends, I've decided to form a VCF "Steering Committee" to henceforth assist in producing all VCF events, in particular the main west coast event. Here are the roles that are currently open: Speaker Booker/Manager (filled: Jack Rubin) Handles the overall coordination of the speakers; researches and identifies potentional speakers for regional events; interfaces with the speakers to ascertain their equipment needs; plans the speaker schedule. Exhibitor Booker/Manager Handles the coordination of the exhibitors; designs the exhibit area layout; answers exhibitor inquiries; interfaces with the exhibitors to ascertain their space and power requirements. Additional roles (local to event): Designs the power distribution system in the physical exhibit layout; helps exhibitors setup ensuring each exhibitor has the required space and services; remains in the exhibit area during most of the event to cater to any exhibitor needs as well as to help watch over the exhibits. The additional roles can and most likely will be separated out to a sub-manager local to the event locale who will coordinate and report to the Exhibitor Booker/Manager. Vendor Booker/Manager (filled: Jack Rubin) Handles the coordination of the vendors and designs the marketplace space; interfaces with the vendors to ascertain their equipment requirements (i.e. table rentals); answers vendor questions; designs the marketplace space layout. Additional roles (local to event): Assists vendor setup (shows vendors to their space and ensures they have requested equipment and services); remains available to the vendors during most of the event to cater to any needs; collects any fees due. As with the Exhibit Booker/Manager, the additional roles can and most likely will be separated out to a sub-manager local to the event. Workshop Booker/Manager Researches and contracts designers of vintage computer projects to help create Build-It-Yourself workshops suitable for the VCF; assists with workshop attendee bookings, including answering questions and coordinating with the workshop designer/instructor. Marketing Director Liason to media; creates and disseminates press releases; creates and posts advertising for events; general public relations. This is an obviously important role. Art/Design/Theme Director I used to be creative, but these days I'm subject to sudden bursts of random brilliance punctuated by aeons of arid and infertile thought processes. Too many distractions, I reckon. Anyway, I need someone to design the look and feel of any given VCF event, including logos, t-shirt designs, slogans, event programs and signage, promotional brochures, etc. Someone good with an illustration application and some spare time. Sponsorship Shark This role entails securing sponsorship in the form of money from companies for name placement, or collateral materials (books, posters, etc.) to give away at VCF events. Special Events - Nerd Trivia Challenge Researcher/Manager Special Events - RetroCode Challenge Manager I like to have fun side events at the VCF. It's hard to fit them in, what with all the other chores to handle. This role will be assigned on an event by event basis to design and implement special side attractions at specific VCF events. Web Maestro Every organization needs one: so too, the VCF. This is mostly managing the superficial VCF website elements through the custom management system (I still handle all the coding and development), i.e. creating new events; editing user submissions; creating photo galleries of past events; managing mailing lists; etc. Special Projects Liason This role is special. It requires a strategist, thinker and doer, all combined into one. It is someone who will help me promote and pursue special VCF projects. I have all sorts of crazy ideas for neat things to do surrounding the VCF but a seemingly diminishing amount of time with which to pursue them. I need a creative person with lots of energy to put these various projects into motion, which could range from building fun retro things (Commodore 64 Supercomputer for example), to designing new VCF events and experiences, to coordinating development of standards, practices and services that benefit the vintage computing community (FutureKeep, Binary Athenaeum, a Prize for Excellence in the Pursuit of Vintage Computing, etc.) You know who you are. Contact me. Jack Rubin is also going to fill the role of supervisor of each sub-manager, and I will of course be the VCF Overlord and general ass-kicker. The role will mostly be for glory and possible profit-sharing if certain minimum revenue thresholds are met on any given event. I've been experimenting with "franchising" the VCF over the past several years, with regional events being handed off to autonomous individuals or organizations, such as Hans Franke (VCF Europa) and Mid-Atlantic Retro-Computing Hobbyists (VCF East). The regional coordinators are responsible for financing their local events, while I still ultimately am responsible for financing of the main VCF event in the Silicon Valley. Even though this is a primarily voluntary role, I need people who will be dedicated and, when it comes to crunch time (i.e. 6-8 weeks prior to any given event), will be able to reserve anywhere from 4-6 hours per week on their assigned role. In other words, a serious disposition is mandatory. Please e-mail me directly if you would like to apply for a particular role. The VCF has a solid foundation of a decade of events all around the (Western) world. With the participation of a dedicated team of like-minded nerds, the next ten years will prove to be more wide-ranging and more exciting than the first. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 29 14:07:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 20:07:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 28, 8 11:12:21 pm Message-ID: > > You could try one of the CBM clubs, there should be someone who has some > spares.. > The other option is rewinding the transformer, not the most thrilling > option.. Hang on a second... Why do yuo think the transformer is the problem? This sounds like a switch-mode PSU. And while transformers can and do fail in those, it's not at all easy to diagnose the fact. They normally have windings witha very low DC resistance and will test as a dead short on any nornaml multimeter. Most of the time, when a SMPSU blows its fuse violently, one of the power semiconductors, often on the mains side, has gone dead shoirt. If you're lucky, a rectifier diode. If you're unlucky, the chopper transistor, which has possibly been damaged by a failure in some other component (that's why I said 'unlucky -- if you just replace the transistor, the new one will most likely fail again at switch-on). In this case, a replacement fuse held, which makes me suspect that some other component in the mains circuit has filead open-circuit. Maybe a current sense resistor or a surge-limiter thermistor, or... > The last i had, was suffering of a bad 9vac transformer that one I replaced > and the PSU was up again. > > -RIk > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ade Vickers > Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 21:20 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: Transformer repairs > > Rik wrote: > > > Maybe this is some help. > > http://www.zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt > > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c6 > > 4/sx-64/index. > > html > > > > I do have a 22MB pdf file with the schematics, if you got a ftp I'll > > upload it. > > > > Hi Rik, > > Thanks - I found the schematics via Wikipedia (of all places); and the text > file too (can't remember where that was linked from). > > >From the description, I think it's the "+12 volt switcher (2.8 Amps)" > >that's > blown; the question is, where the heck would I get one of those from?? > > > Here's the pin-out (from the solder side, heatsink towards you): > > 240v o o 0v > > 240v o o 0v > > n/c o o 0v o 0v > > n/c o o 12v o 12v > > 0v o o 12v > > 0v o o 12v > > Yes, there are two additional pins stuck out of the side; it looks like the > taps have been taken out separately. The 6 0v/12v connections are a guess, > based on the fact there are pins, and they're soldered into the same pads as > the outboard 0v and 12v. They may, of cours, all be n/c > > Also, 0v is not *really* 0v, given that there's AC going in; except that > it's already been through a rectifier, which seems odd to me. Is this > something to do with it being a switching PSU? > > > >From what I can tell, this board is designed to produce 9vac, +12v and +5v. > I could fabricate an entirely new PSU, or even hacksaw up a PC supply (an > old AT type with a physical on/off switch) to go in this one's place; but > it'd be nice to keep it reasonably authentic. > > > Cheers, > Ade. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 29 14:03:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 20:03:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <483DC560.7000206@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 28, 8 03:49:36 pm Message-ID: > > What you have found is called a Power On Self Test card, or "POST card". [...] > It was my understanding that only AT-class machines (by age, not > necessarily by architecture type) wrote to that port. I've never seen a > PC or XT (or clone thereof) motherboard/BIOS write to that port. Well, it's a different port address, but it's clear from the source listings in the IBM PC/XT Techref that it writes out POSTcodes as the tests progress. Some (AT and later) clones used other port addresses, BTW. Soem time ago there was a design fro a POSTcard in elektor magazine. It was just a GAL for address decoding (equations not given, but very easy to work out), an 8 bit latch to hold the POSTcodes as they are output, and another GAL to decode that and drive a couple of 7 segment displays. There was a DIP switch to select the IBM XT port, IBM AT port, and IIRC 2 or 3 of the odd clone ports. -tony From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Thu May 29 14:50:20 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 21:50:20 +0200 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 28, 8 11:12:21 pm Message-ID: <3AC71F1F7E6F4AB8949F18CFF3970F34@xp1800> There are 3 transformers in the PSU 1 is the switching transformer the second one (smallest) is used to drive the switching transistor. The last one delivers 2 time 9VAC witch 1 winding is used as AC suply for the monitor, the other winding feeds the control circuitry of the PSU. These have a habbit of going bad, this are small 3 to 5VA transformers , they short internal and then blow the windingsdue to the high current. But you always have to check the components....... Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: donderdag 29 mei 2008 21:08 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Transformer repairs > > You could try one of the CBM clubs, there should be someone who has > some spares.. > The other option is rewinding the transformer, not the most thrilling > option.. Hang on a second... Why do yuo think the transformer is the problem? This sounds like a switch-mode PSU. And while transformers can and do fail in those, it's not at all easy to diagnose the fact. They normally have windings witha very low DC resistance and will test as a dead short on any nornaml multimeter. Most of the time, when a SMPSU blows its fuse violently, one of the power semiconductors, often on the mains side, has gone dead shoirt. If you're lucky, a rectifier diode. If you're unlucky, the chopper transistor, which has possibly been damaged by a failure in some other component (that's why I said 'unlucky -- if you just replace the transistor, the new one will most likely fail again at switch-on). In this case, a replacement fuse held, which makes me suspect that some other component in the mains circuit has filead open-circuit. Maybe a current sense resistor or a surge-limiter thermistor, or... > The last i had, was suffering of a bad 9vac transformer that one I > replaced and the PSU was up again. > > -RIk > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ade Vickers > Verzonden: woensdag 28 mei 2008 21:20 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: Transformer repairs > > Rik wrote: > > > Maybe this is some help. > > http://www.zimmers.net/commie/docs/sx64.txt > > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c6 > > 4/sx-64/index. > > html > > > > I do have a 22MB pdf file with the schematics, if you got a ftp I'll > > upload it. > > > > Hi Rik, > > Thanks - I found the schematics via Wikipedia (of all places); and the > text file too (can't remember where that was linked from). > > >From the description, I think it's the "+12 volt switcher (2.8 Amps)" > >that's > blown; the question is, where the heck would I get one of those from?? > > > Here's the pin-out (from the solder side, heatsink towards you): > > 240v o o 0v > > 240v o o 0v > > n/c o o 0v o 0v > > n/c o o 12v o 12v > > 0v o o 12v > > 0v o o 12v > > Yes, there are two additional pins stuck out of the side; it looks > like the taps have been taken out separately. The 6 0v/12v connections > are a guess, based on the fact there are pins, and they're soldered > into the same pads as the outboard 0v and 12v. They may, of cours, all > be n/c > > Also, 0v is not *really* 0v, given that there's AC going in; except > that it's already been through a rectifier, which seems odd to me. Is > this something to do with it being a switching PSU? > > > >From what I can tell, this board is designed to produce 9vac, +12v and +5v. > I could fabricate an entirely new PSU, or even hacksaw up a PC supply > (an old AT type with a physical on/off switch) to go in this one's > place; but it'd be nice to keep it reasonably authentic. > > > Cheers, > Ade. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu May 29 15:50:43 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:50:43 -0500 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 28, 8 11:12:21 pm Message-ID: <20B5AA3700B@dunfield.com> > (that's why I said 'unlucky -- if you just replace the transistor, the > new one will most likely fail again at switch-on). After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, but especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test throught a light-bulb. At first with no load and a low wattage bulb (40w) - Most switchers won't run with no load, but you will see the bulb pulse is it kicks - Brightly and solidly lit = investigate further. If it passes that test, move up to a 100w bulb and just enough load to get it to regulate. This is assuming a small (50-100w supply) - if it's a big monster adjust your "current limit" accordingly. Has saved me from "secondary catastrophic failures" on more than one occation. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 29 14:56:53 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 20:56:53 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800><012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> Message-ID: <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi Ade > If it is a switcher, it sounds like you don't understand how > these work. You're right, I don't; although I'm getting a better idea. > Please send a pointer to the schematic you located. We can > then talk about failures in switchers. The schematic is available in this document: http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/sx64sc hematics.zip (that's a 19.7mb download) The PSU info starts on P25 of the PDF, and the schematic is on P28 (2nd to last). OK, let's talk failures ;) If you've got any links which give a sensible description of how a switcher works, I'd be most grateful. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 00:00 From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu May 29 14:56:54 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 20:56:54 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 28, 8 11:12:21 pm Message-ID: <015301c8c1c6$27e20b70$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Hang on a second... > > Why do yuo think the transformer is the problem? > > This sounds like a switch-mode PSU. And while transformers > can and do fail in those, it's not at all easy to diagnose > the fact. They normally have windings witha very low DC > resistance and will test as a dead short on any nornaml multimeter. OK, the reason I suspect a transformer; there's power getting as far as the primary windings of the transformer (can be seen on an oscilloscope); and it seems to conform to the "chopped" DC that I now know a switcher expects. All three transformers are fed mains from the same place: T3 has an output voltage, Tunnamed has an output voltage, T1 has no output at all - not even noise. The output of T's 1 and 3 feed into the 12v board; one side is OK (from T3), the T2 side has nothing. > Most of the time, when a SMPSU blows its fuse violently, one > of the power semiconductors, often on the mains side, has > gone dead shoirt. If you're lucky, a rectifier diode. If > you're unlucky, the chopper transistor, which has possibly > been damaged by a failure in some other component (that's why > I said 'unlucky -- if you just replace the transistor, the > new one will most likely fail again at switch-on). > > In this case, a replacement fuse held, which makes me suspect > that some other component in the mains circuit has filead > open-circuit. Maybe a current sense resistor or a > surge-limiter thermistor, or... > Although I would normally agree with you, in this case I'm pretty sure the electronics prior to the transformer are OK - witness the power coming through T3. I can only assume that the primary winding of T1 has failed; but I've not yet removed it from the board to test it in isolation. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 00:00 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 29 15:29:28 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <20B5AA3700B@dunfield.com> References: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> from "Rik" at May 28, 8 11:12:21 pm <20B5AA3700B@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200805292030.QAA16573@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, but > especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test throught a > light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary catastrophic > failures" on more than one occation. And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs entirely. Stupid ideas spring eternal.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 29 16:05:27 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:05:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2008, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Tothwolf writes: > >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2525415713_3f8a3f8766.jpg > > Nice plotter. Probably worth rescuing. I would but, I'm 2,000+ miles > from Baltimore. >From the looks of it, the plotter may have been stripped of it's boards or wiring. It's difficult to tell from the photos. It may very well be worth salvaging though even if the original control boards and/or wiring have been stripped by the scavengers. > There's a TI printing terminal in the pics too. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 29 16:14:55 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:14:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2008, Mike Loewen wrote: > In article , Tothwolf > writes: >> >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2525415713_3f8a3f8766.jpg > > You mentioned a card punch, but not being familiar with CDC equipment > I didn't recognize it. Is it a manual punch or an output device? I've > never seen a 96-column punch in the flesh. I'm not familiar with any of it myself. What you see in the photos is pretty much all I know. I'm nowhere near there myself otherwise I'd have investigated the site back in January. The photo link above is a very large plotter. This is what I was led to believe was a card punch: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2525416845_d926411135.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2362400257_e6c806024c.jpg Anyone have any idea what the red rack laying on it's side in this photo might be? http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2526235416_93ea66ef6d.jpg From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 29 16:28:19 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:28:19 -0400 Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Anyone have any idea what the red rack laying on it's side in this photo > might be? > > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2526235416_93ea66ef6d.jpg IBM 3741, I think. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 29 16:36:41 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:36:41 -0400 Subject: Tek 7904 scope at McGill in Montreal In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0805290805r5695852bo77e94b732ea2c94c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0805290805r5695852bo77e94b732ea2c94c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580308E1-264F-4CFC-AEBD-C554B6E560B7@neurotica.com> On May 29, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Hello all, with all the talk of "classic" scopes: if anyone wants it > and is in the neighborhood, a Tek 7904 scope was put out to pasture on > our floor here at McGill, so I dragged it into my office. I can't > keep it here for too long so if there's no interest, I'll put it out > again. > > It's got one 7A19 Amp, a 7D11 Digital delay, and a 7B53N Dual Time > Base; the fourth slot is empty (but covered). It appears to at least > somewhat work: power, lights, traces, etc. It was last calibrated in > 82 according to a sticker. Oh, how I wish I were in the neighborhood! I'm well-equipped in the scope department (Tek 2465A, Tek TDS3012, HP 54111D) but I'd always make room for the venerable 7904! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 29 16:31:37 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:31:37 -0400 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <20080528144145.E86635@shell.lmi.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <200805281646.12843.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080528144145.E86635@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200805291731.37663.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 May 2008 17:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > [POST card] > > On Wed, 28 May 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Do you happen to recall any more detail on that? I've always wondered > > how those worked, and a magazine article would be neat to see on it... > > It's unlikely that I can find it in a reasonable time. However, with a > little looking around, . . . > > http://members.tripod.com/~bbright/information/postcard.htm Well, that's pretty nifty... Simple, too! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu May 29 16:44:27 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:44:27 +0100 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <483F23BB.40204@gifford.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I have a Venner TSA 3336 counter that uses those modules, as well as the > leaflet-style manuals for the various modules. > Pictures and description of the counter and modules are at: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/VennerTSA3336/index.html I have a Venner frequency meter with lots of discrete transistor counting circuits and (I think) the same type of digit-projection displays. I'll have to dig it out and get some good photos. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu May 29 16:47:18 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 14:47:18 -0700 Subject: buying an oscilloscope References: <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c@webmail.izone.at> <52107.71.139.37.220.1211861259.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <002401c8c1d5$9196e7c0$0201a8c0@hal9000> David, I agree with whomever wrote about sticking with Tek analog scopes. If you want your squarewaves to look square though you need a bandwidth 10 times the signal of interest ( i.e. 20 MHz squarewave 200 MHz scope ). The more odd harmonics you can push through the more " square " it will be, and you would like to pass the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics if possible. I still like my OLD Tek ( 5000 BTU, Ethan could use this in the South Pole ) 535A with CA plug-in for most old vintage stuff. The display is still as crisp and bright as the day I bought it ( used at a salvage sale ). I have a high dollar Tek digital LCD scope but was very disappointed to find out the 2 GS / second front end is only 8 bits wide !! I only use it if I need a hardcopy for a customer of some signal or to capture a signal that only happens once. The signal displayed is only as " crisp " as the dots in the LCD are small. Good luck in your search. Now, if you could find an HP LogicDart cheap somewhere ......? Best regards, Steven > Gerhard wrote about a 100 MHz oscilliscope: > > For slow signals usually present in classical hardware, thats no > > problem. > > That's true. > > Many people have the mistaken belief that a 'scope with 20 MHz bandwidth > is adequate for looking at 20 MHz digital signals, but that is not true. > For digital signals you usually want bandwidth of at least five times the > peak frequency of the system, and preferably more. It's hard to > diagnose problems when fairly square edges on signals look like > sine waves on the 'scope. > > Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Thu May 29 16:45:06 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:45:06 -0400 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805292030.QAA16573@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> <20B5AA3700B@dunfield.com> <200805292030.QAA16573@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200805291745.06313.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 29 May 2008 16:29, der Mouse wrote: > > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, but > > especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test throught a > > light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary catastrophic > > failures" on more than one occation. > > And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs entirely. > > Stupid ideas spring eternal.... This is more than just talk, they put it into law: http://billstclair.com/blog/kiss_your_bulbs_goodbye.html Idiots. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 29 16:57:29 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:57:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2008, William Donzelli wrote: >> Anyone have any idea what the red rack laying on it's side in this >> photo might be? >> >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2526235416_93ea66ef6d.jpg > > IBM 3741, I think. The rack in the foreground near the bottom of the image? Hopefully some of this stuff can be saved. The guy who published the feed might be good to talk to too when looking at salvaging the gear from he offices. I know he wasn't too happy to see everything get so trashed. The punch cards were supposedly mostly still in the drawers back in Jan/Feb but tons of them got tossed down one of the stairwells, probably by some teenagers. Those may need to be cleaned up for safety reasons anyway when looking at bringing this stuff down from the offices (which I think are upstairs but I'm not 100% on that). From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 29 17:45:48 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 23:45:48 +0100 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002c01c8c1dd$be654460$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Marcus Bennett wrote: > How about somebody get the ISA version of such a card and see if it's > at all useful. > > I suppose it might be able to help you fault find a seemingle dead > system though I am somewhat suspicious. I have an ISA+PCI card of that sort (not that exact one). It's can be useful to sort out whether you have good power, a CPU that works at all etc. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2/1471 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 17:33 From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu May 29 18:03:23 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 18:03:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wanted: pair of P133 cpus for a SP5100-2 Message-ID: Looking for a matched stepping pair of P133s to rebuild an old project machine I never finished. I'll also need to find a couple of passive heatsinks and retaining clips for socket 5/7 as well. The heatsink and single cpu currently in it appear to be epoxy bonded. The system itself is a Dell PowerEdge SP5100-2 that currently has a single P100 cpu. It's an unusual server in the way it's constructed that has tons of EISA slots and uses a backplane type layout. I rescued it about 4-5 years ago from the scrapper and it came with a 4 EISA dual channel SCSI cards in it. I don't really have anything to budget for this thing (which is why it's been sitting under the desk unfinished for 4-5 years) but I'll gladly cover the postage or trade a MMJ adapter or cable if someone has some extra stuff laying around that I'm looking for. (Mylex/BusLogic/Bustek SCSI cards or programming docs would also be extremely helpful.) The system uses a 430NX chipset which will support up to a P133 and 512MB of FPM memory (if memory serves). I'll eventually be looking for a set of 8ea 64MB 60ns 72 pin FPM Parity SIMMs (with tin plated contacts, not gold) for it as well. I've got some EISA OSS drivers I'd like to test/debug so it's about time to finally get the silly thing going. It's currently missing all 4 of the 3.5" hard drive mounting sleds/trays and I don't have any of the special rails to mount a cdrom drive or anything in the 3 empty 5.25" bays so if anyone might have a lead on these parts or even just know the part numbers for these things it would be most helpful. Failing that, I guess there's always lucite and velcro :) [I just realized I last looked into doing something with this system in 2004: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-June/043856.html It's definitely time to get it going...] -Toth From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu May 29 22:42:00 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:42:00 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope at McGill in Montreal In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0805290805r5695852bo77e94b732ea2c94c@mail.gmail.com > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080529223857.11e72058@localhost> At 11:05 AM 2008-05-29 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, with all the talk of "classic" scopes: if anyone wants it >and is in the neighborhood, a Tek 7904 scope was put out to pasture on >our floor here at McGill, so I dragged it into my office. I can't >keep it here for too long so if there's no interest, I'll put it out >again. > >It's got one 7A19 Amp, a 7D11 Digital delay, and a 7B53N Dual Time >Base; the fourth slot is empty (but covered). It appears to at least >somewhat work: power, lights, traces, etc. It was last calibrated in >82 according to a sticker. Before it goes in the dumpster, if no one claims it, send me the plug ins! My 7904 has a 7A26, 7A18, 7CT1N (curve tracer!) and 7B53A. It came to me with shorted tantalums in the power supply-- might power up, probably won't- just goes tick! tick! tick! Took me weeks to find and replace all the caps that were bad. Works a treat now. Tom ----- 157. [Poetry] Seduced, shaggy Samson snored. // She scissored short. Sorely shorn, // Soon shackled slave, Samson sighed, // Silently scheming, Sightlessly seeking // Some savage, spectacular suicide. --Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From s.fontana at waldys.gruppofabbri.com Thu May 29 02:58:41 2008 From: s.fontana at waldys.gruppofabbri.com (Silvio Fontana (Waldys SA - Ufficio Tecnico)) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:58:41 +0200 Subject: Fuse PROM programming algorithms Message-ID: Could anyone help me in finding the programming algorithms for MMI 6301-1J ? It seems impossible to find any document about this. Thank you very much S.Fontana Ufficio Tecnico Elettronico Gruppo Fabbri (Svizzera) SA Divisione macchine Waldys Via Ai Molini, 4 CH-6933 Muzzano (TI) SWITZERLAND Tel. +41 (0)91 960 1414 Tel. +41 (0)91 960 2772 < mailto:s.fontana at waldys.gruppofabbri.com> < http://www.gruppofabbri.com/> From derschjo at msu.edu Thu May 29 04:59:33 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 02:59:33 -0700 Subject: PET 2001-8 progress... In-Reply-To: <483E3A35.3030501@msu.edu> References: <483E3A35.3030501@msu.edu> Message-ID: <483E7E85.8030109@msu.edu> Got out my ancient oscilloscope and did a bit of probing and got a little more info: On power up, the CPU reset line is held low for ~1 sec, then goes high. At this point if I look at the address/data lines, I can see a very brief burst of activity and then nothing at all (it's during this activity that a few characters on screen change). After this activity, all address lines are high. IRQ & NMI lines are high. CPU is being clocked throughout all of this, clock rate seems to be correct. I found an old S-100 static ram board which is populated with TI TMS4045-45NLs -- from the datasheets I was able to find, these look to be 2114 compatible, am I correct in this assumption? If they're compatible I'll try them in the PET and see if it makes any difference... There's an LED on the PET logic board which does not light up when power is applied. Is this supposed to be on at powerup, or is it activated by some hardware/software activity? Thanks, Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > So I've got my "hacked-up" PET powering up after redoing a bit of > wiring on the power supply. I replaced a couple of obviously bad > 74LS157's in the video generator section (legs were corroded and some > had fallen off/cracked) and reflowed a couple of suspicious looking > joints. > > The machine now powers up, the display is bright and crisp but I just > get garbage characters on the display. Using my logic probe I've > verified that the CPU is running, voltages appear nominal (4.9V at the > CPU & RAM). The CPU seems to be running something, in that about 1-2 > seconds after power up a few characters on the screen will change (not > where you'd expect the COMMODORE BASIC banner to be printed, but > always in the same places). Typing on the keyboard produces no effect. > I've reduced the board to 4K of 2114s and tried swapping around the > 2114s used for the display, but the only effect this has is to change > the pattern of garbage characters displayed (interestingly (at least > to me) each RAM chip produces a different pattern, which is > reproducible). If I run without any video RAM installed, I just get a > checkerboard pattern onscreen, which would make sense since character > FF is the checkerboard tile. Unfortunately I have no idea if any of > the 2114s I have are good or not, though I'd wager that they can't ALL > be bad. I don't have any other machines that use them and I don't > have any spares. > > Any suggestions on logical places to start looking from here? > > Thanks, > Josh > > > > From jrr at flippers.com Thu May 29 11:56:13 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:56:13 -0700 Subject: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483EE02D.30408@flippers.com> Silvio Fontana (Waldys SA - Ufficio Tecnico) wrote: > Could anyone help me in finding the programming algorithms for MMI 6301-1J ? > > It seems impossible to find any document about this. > > Thank you very much > > > > S.Fontana > Ufficio Tecnico Elettronico > > Gruppo Fabbri (Svizzera) SA > Divisione macchine Waldys > Via Ai Molini, 4 > CH-6933 Muzzano (TI) SWITZERLAND > Tel. +41 (0)91 960 1414 > Tel. +41 (0)91 960 2772 > < > mailto:s.fontana at waldys.gruppofabbri.com> > < http://www.gruppofabbri.com/> > This is in the 1978 MMI book of the period. I have the pages for the 6300 <-> 6380 scanned and will send you a copy. Unfortunately the pages do not show the programming algorithm, but I will locate the book and find that info for you later - if this is not enough to go by. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From Nick.Jarmany at quixant.co.uk Thu May 29 13:29:44 2008 From: Nick.Jarmany at quixant.co.uk (Nick Jarmany) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 19:29:44 +0100 Subject: Electronics Today International (ETI) "System 68" firmware Message-ID: Does anyone out there remember the "System 68" project that ran as a series in the UK magazine Electronics Today International (ETI) during 1977? I built this when I was young, but unfortunately all my early hobby stuff got slung out when my parents moved house. I have managed to re-create most of my "lost" issues of the magazine, including the ones covering System 68, which was a simple M6800 based system with a memory mapped VDU. Now, here's the question - does anyone out there remember this project and, if so, would anyone happen to have a listing of the monitor firmware? I believe the firmware for this system was derived from the Motorola MIKBUG monitor, modified to suit the different hardware. I want to re-building this system, but so far have been unable to locate the necessary firmware. Hoping that there is a someone out there that might be able to help out! Thanks Nick From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri May 30 02:39:17 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:39:17 +0000 Subject: PET 2001-8 progress... In-Reply-To: <483E7E85.8030109@msu.edu> References: <483E3A35.3030501@msu.edu> <483E7E85.8030109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <20080530073917.GB22833@usap.gov> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:59:33AM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > Got out my ancient oscilloscope and did a bit of probing and got a > little more info: > > On power up, the CPU reset line is held low for ~1 sec, then goes high. I don't know the RC constants, but that doesn't sound bad. > At this point if I look at the address/data lines, I can see a very > brief burst of activity and then nothing at all (it's during this > activity that a few characters on screen change). After this activity, > all address lines are high. IRQ & NMI lines are high. CPU is being > clocked throughout all of this, clock rate seems to be correct. Hmm... if there's a flurry of activity, it sounds like the CPU is getting out of RESET, then fetching the reset vector, jumping to the code above $F000 and trying to run. > I found an old S-100 static ram board which is populated with TI > TMS4045-45NLs -- from the datasheets I was able to find, these look to > be 2114 compatible, am I correct in this assumption? If they're > compatible I'll try them in the PET and see if it makes any difference... Are they the same width? I have a dim memory that TMS4045s are wide DIPs (0.4") not narrow DIPs (0.3"). Real 2114s do fail, and should be easy pick up from plenty of places like BG Micro. The original static PET used a 0.4"-wide 1Kx4 SRAM with something like a 450ns access time - really, really slow. I don't think any 2114s were as slow (more like 350-200ns). Any 2114 should do the trick. > There's an LED on the PET logic board which does not light up when power > is applied. Is this supposed to be on at powerup, or is it activated by > some hardware/software activity? That is the "diagnostic LED". It's only lit when you ground the diagnostic pin on the User Port (see any set of vintage C= PET docs for the exact pin) _and_ you are running with the "diagnostic clip" (IIRC)... it's a 40-pin test clip with an attached plastic box with some active circuitry. You should also have keyboard and (I think) tape interface loopback connectors. I have such a rig at home, but not with me. As for where to go... the behavior you describe (tries to start up but goes into the weeds) - it's consistent with bad zero page RAM. I have a Fluke 9010A at home with a 6502 pod - that would pin down your problems in seconds. Barring that, you could have anything from a problem getting good ROM results (bad chips from $F000-$FFFF or bad selectors, etc) to bad RAM chips or bad RAM decode logic, etc. With a newer (ROM 2.0) PET, you can ground the diagnostic pin and it will dump you into the TIM monitor rather than BASIC. Unfortunately, ROM 1.0 PETs lack TIM in ROM (it was supplied on tape). I remember the joy with my first PET, since all of my experience was with 4K PETs at the library - somehow I was fiddling with SYS calls and ended up in TIM - and was *shocked* it was in ROM. Sort-of worst case, if you have the ability to burn 2K EPROMs or don't mind building an adapter for a standard EPROM emulator, you could always write your own code to do *something* that doesn't depend on zero-page RAM working and see if you could toggle a User Port pin or something simple. If that works, your ROM works - you could then test RAM and see how it behaves. Of course, if you have access to a Fluke 9010A and 6502 pod, _that_ can be used to test RAM, checksum ROM, read random locations, twiddle I/O ports, etc. It's a _really_ versatile device for bare-metal debugging (mine came from Software Results and was used extensively for poking around dead MC68000-based COMBOARDs). If you don't have a Fluke, the base unit can be had cheaply, but the money is in the pods (I'd love to find a Z-80 pod and maybe one or two others to round out my set). Another useful tool is a 6502 with the D0-D7 pins bent up and wired to force a NOP... it will fetch $EAEA (ISTR) and start executing there and free-run through the memory map - no matter what's really happening on the bus, the address pins should count up as the CPU endlessly fetches NOPs. Unlike the Apple II board, the PET won't do strange things on read accesses - i.e. no "side effects" - you can watch A15 and see it toggle at half the rate of A14, etc. From there, you can check various /CS pins on RAM, ROM and I/O chips, and they should show a regular pattern that corresponds to the memory map - any obvious deviations (like no RAMSEL) should help narrow down what isn't being selected. It won't help find bad SRAM chips, but that's what a RAM tester can do for you. The other thing about PETs is that the sockets are notoriously crappy. even just reseating all the socketed chips can help. I have a 32K Dynamic PET I got new in 1978 that seems to need new 40-pins sockets for the I/O chips - it was working before I stopped using it, then in (indoor) storage, the IEEE port "went out". I've tried new 6520s and 6522s, but no go - the next time I crack it open, I'll replace the sockets with machined-pin sockets and then continue debugging. Keep us informed as to your progress. It's a great machine! -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-May-2008 at 07:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77.6 F (-60.9 C) Windchill -113.4 F (-80.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.4 kts Grid 96 Barometer 671.8 mb (10939 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 30 03:17:57 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:17:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 2008, Tothwolf wrote: > This is what I was led to believe was a card punch: > > http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2525416845_d926411135.jpg > http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2362400257_e6c806024c.jpg Apparently you have never seen a modern mechanical calculator, have you? Christian From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri May 30 06:40:34 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay Message-ID: This is actually a replica of the original WOPR that was commissioned for an AT&T commercial a couple years back. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220237845125 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri May 30 07:49:57 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:49:57 -0500 Subject: PET 2001-8 progress... In-Reply-To: <483E7E85.8030109@msu.edu> References: <483E3A35.3030501@msu.edu> Message-ID: <579D0CE52D0@dunfield.com> > Got out my ancient oscilloscope and did a bit of probing and got a > little more info: > > On power up, the CPU reset line is held low for ~1 sec, then goes high. > At this point if I look at the address/data lines, I can see a very > brief burst of activity and then nothing at all (it's during this > activity that a few characters on screen change). After this activity, > all address lines are high. IRQ & NMI lines are high. CPU is being > clocked throughout all of this, clock rate seems to be correct. Assuming that it is clocked and has been reset correctly, there are generally only two reasons that a CPU stops running (fetching opcodes): 1) It is being held in a hardware wait state. Check the state of the RDY line on the 6502 and if it is asserted, backtrace through the circuit to find out why. 2) It executes an instruction which causes it to stop Usually a HALT instructionor of some sort or other, there are sometimes undocumented opcodes which cause this behaviour as well - A bit of net searching should turn up details on the undocumented opcodes. There are generally two reasons why a processor would execute an opcode to shut itself off: 1) On purpose Usually while waiting for an interrupt - given that you PET hasn't even cleared it's screen, I doubt this is the case. 2) By executing "random" code Can be caused by: - Bad ROM - actual code gets corrupted - Bad RAM - stack failure results in "return" to random address - Bad bus buffers - hardware failure resulting in corruption in the address or data buses. - Bad decode logic - no device or multiple memory devices being selected when only one should be. I've seen a least two 2001's with bad ROM chips. And a number of PETs with bad RAM - I'd suspect one of these two. If you have a storage scope, you should be able to trigger on the SYNC signal at the CPU and catch the last few opcode fetches - walking the data and address bus signals and writing them down will reveal the last opcode executed and the address from which it was executed. Look at the opcode that was executed to see what exactly caused the CPU to stop. Try this a couple of times and see if the CPU is always stopping in the same place. Scope the select lines and note *which* ROM was selected for the last opcode fetch, or in the case of a "wild" access, which ROM was selected last before it stopped. If the address where that opcode was fetched in within the ROM, get the PET rom binaries and see if it's "supposed" to be there - a bit of disassembly around that address should tell you if the code is real code, or some random bit of data that the processor wandered off into. If you can read the PET ROMs (I made an adapter to stuff them into my homebuild EPROM programmer) you can compare against the binaries to check the entire ROM content - The PET roms are not standard pinouts - but you can make an adapter to put a normal ROM in the socket - IIRC I needed a TTL chip to provide an extra select - I've got photos on my site of a PET that I had to repair this way. If the address is NOT within the ROM, trigger on the ROM select and see what the last opcode executed from ROM was - if it was RTS or RTI I would strongly suspect a RAM problem. It might also be a jump indirect (same suspicion). As above, look at the code contained at this address and see it if "makes sense" as a valid place to be executing. With a decent scope you can get several fetches on the screen, and therefore determine the opcode/address for the last few instructions executed - If you can't get any of that to make sense, try single- shot trigger and capture the first few instructons executed - see if they make sense and match the ROM. With a bit of poking around you should be able to determine what the processor is doing at the time it went insane - hopefully at some point the "ah-ha" light will go on. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri May 30 08:57:15 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:57:15 -0400 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> ECL memory I assume? Needs an IMSAI to go with it, though... On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > This is actually a replica of the original WOPR that was commissioned for > an AT&T commercial a couple years back. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220237845125 > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From wolfson at infusent.com Fri May 30 09:04:24 2008 From: wolfson at infusent.com (Steve Wolfson) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:04:24 -0600 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually there is a company that makes new IMSAI chassis that will accept both an S100 mother board and a PC ATX board (the console talks to it via USB). http://www.imsai.net/ On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > ECL memory I assume? Needs an IMSAI to go with it, though... > > > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Sellam Ismail > wrote: > > > > > This is actually a replica of the original WOPR that was commissioned for > > an AT&T commercial a couple years back. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220237845125 > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers > > ] > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 30 09:18:44 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 30, 8 09:57:15 am" Message-ID: <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> > > This is actually a replica of the original WOPR that was commissioned for > > an AT&T commercial a couple years back. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220237845125 > ECL memory I assume? Needs an IMSAI to go with it, though... Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 30 09:24:32 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> References: <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >>> This is actually a replica of the original WOPR that was commissioned for >>> an AT&T commercial a couple years back. >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220237845125 > >> ECL memory I assume? Needs an IMSAI to go with it, though... > > Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... > The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't appear to have that. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 30 09:48:22 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:48:22 -0700 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800><012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: Hi First, I agree with Tony, the transformer is most likelty OK. Your earlier description wouldn't be enough to say it was good or bad. Measuring things on the primary side with a scope would be difficult without using an isolation trasnsformer. The point in the circuit that you'd need to use as ground reference has about 150-170 volts DC on it. If you connected the scope ground to this point you'd really blow things without using an isolation transformer. Next is that T3 is a pulse transformer and not an 60Hz AC transformer. The input is from the regulator chip, pins 8 and 11. One should see a 50-150KHz pulse on these pins. This would be the first place I'd look. Dwight > From: javickers at solutionengineers.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 20:56:53 +0100 > Subject: RE: Transformer repairs > > Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> Hi Ade >> If it is a switcher, it sounds like you don't understand how >> these work. > > You're right, I don't; although I'm getting a better idea. > >> Please send a pointer to the schematic you located. We can >> then talk about failures in switchers. > > The schematic is available in this document: > > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/sx64sc > hematics.zip > (that's a 19.7mb download) > > The PSU info starts on P25 of the PDF, and the schematic is on P28 (2nd to > last). > > OK, let's talk failures ;) If you've got any links which give a sensible > description of how a switcher works, I'd be most grateful. > > > Cheers, > Ade. > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 00:00 > > > _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008 From drb at msu.edu Fri May 30 09:52:48 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:52:48 -0400 Subject: last-minute TI-990 available Message-ID: <200805301452.m4UEqmBV011343@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Dear all, Quite a few of you were interested in the TI-990, so I'll post an update here. I have a taker for the system. I'll keep your emails around in case that falls through. For general interest, I picked up the system last night. The tall rack includes two CPUs, one older and one newer build, and a Fujitsu Eagle drive. The two removable pack drives are Century Data units. There are about 10 disk packs for these drives. The prints and service manual for them is included, as is a 990 overview manual. There's also the 911 terminal shown in the photo, as well as a wide carriage dot matrix printer which was not. There is a box of miscellaneous cables which may or not actually match anything. Unfortunately, the equipment was stored in an open barn for about two years, one of the Century drives was dropped several feet, the heads were not locked on any of the drives before moving them, the Century drives were moved with their packs installed, and the spare packs all have condensation on the insides of the "cake pan" lids. Otoh, the insides of the electronics are actually reasonably clean, and it should be possible to revive most of it. I suspect with some care it's probably possible to recondition the disk packs, clean the pack wells in the drives, etc. The heads were actually still in the retracted position on both of the Century drives, which is hopeful. I was actually contacted about this machine two years ago. The caller said his employer (apparently a Ford garage, I've since learned) was just taking it out of service, and was looking for information on who might be interested, what it might be worth, etc. I gave him a few pointers and asked that he let me know if he couldn't find a taker. I only wish he'd been willing to let me take it then. De From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 30 10:04:23 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "May 30, 8 07:24:32 am" Message-ID: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> > > Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... > The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't appear > to have that. :) You know, I always suspected that due to the font on the display but I never found anything that confirmed it. Did you find a source for that? Someone else claimed it was an Apple II but had an equal paucity of evidence. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't type any long sentiments in this .sig file because it's not wide enou From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri May 30 10:11:02 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:11:02 +0200 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <20080530171102.56bed603.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi everybody, after I tried over months to subscribe to both lists I'm now finally subscribed to cctalk at least. I don't know if it's usual or not to write an introduction but I'll just do so by keeping more an eye on the computer system I own. If you don't care just skip this mail ;) As my From header states my name is Oliver, I live in germany and right now I'm 27 years old. That should be enough to my person - now let me tell you a bit more about the computer system I own ;) EAW P8000 This system was built between 1987 and the breakdown of the former GDR - the eastern part of germany - 1990. The system itself is split up into two "towers" connected together. The first tower called "P8000 Computer" contains a 8Bit system (Z80) and a 16Bit system (Z8001).The 2nd case - the "P8000 Winchester" - contains a Winchester Disc Controller which runs with a Z80 CPU and is connected to the 16Bit part of the "P8000 Computer". Up to three MFM drives (all with the same geometry while the geometry itself can be configured) can be connected to the WDC. The 8Bit part is built on a single board, has 64KB SRAM, 2 SIOs to connect up to 4 terminals to it, one PIO to connect a EPROM programmer, and one PIO to establish a connection to the 16Bit part. It has 2 5.25" floppy drives with an external connector to connect two further 5.25" or 8" floppy drives. The systemmonitor is loaded from two 2732 EPROMs. The system originally supported three operating systems while two survived the time being. I own UDOS which is a Z80-RIO clone and OS/M which is a CP/M clone. There also was an OS called IS/M which was an ISIS clone. The more interesting (at least for me) part is the 16Bit part. The 16Bit part is built on a single board too (6layer) while the DRAM are single board which can be hooked up onto the mainboard. The system runs a Z8001 with 3 MMUs and Z80-peripherial ICs (PIO, SIO...) It also has 2 SIOs for 4 terminal connections, and one PIO to connect the WDC. The system also has two furhter PIO chips to establish a connection to the 8Bit system. The system runs with up to 4MB of DRAM but it might run with more RAM with self-made RAM modules. There exists also a RTC for the system and an extension to connect an 80286CPU + 1MBRAM to the 16BIT port to run a x86 OS on it while stearing it from the OS running on the 16Bit system. The Operating-System running on the 16Bit part is WEGA - a ZiLOG ZEUS clone. To boot WEGA at first the 8Bit system has to be booted up with UDOS (the Z80-RIO clone) to load a communication software which handles the communication over the 8Bit-PIO. After this is done the system switches over to the 16Bit system and the system monitor there gets loaded. The WEGA-Kernel (most parts are still original ZEUS objects) itself has the corresponding part for the 8<->16Bit communication interface in it. This was done to get access to the floppy drives, the EPROM programmer and the 4 8Bit-terminal connections which are all connected to the Z80 on the 8Bit-system. To access for example a floppy, the WEGA-kernel has to send the request using the PIO connection to the 8Bit system which handles it and sends the results back to the WEGA-kernel on the 16 Bit system. Same goes with the WDC which is connected through another PIO directly to the 16Bit system - command codes are sent to the Z80 on the WDC which handles the codes and sends the results back to the 16Bit system. Not that fast but it works good. Pictures and so one are all collected on my homepage http://pofo.de/P8000/ while most (if not to say all) of original documents are written in german... So - what do I do with the system? I use it for learn more about hardware processes itself, assembler and to get a deeper UNIX knowledge which is easier to start with there then with todays UNIX systems. Las project was to get TCP/IP working and I successed by usingg K5JB to get FTP and ping to work via SLIP. Because the speed was damn slow (and not just because of the baud rate), I came to the conclusion that a better performance could be achieved by implementing TCP/IP in the kernelspace instead of having it run in the userspace. So my goal is now to get the kernel sources right now to make the neccessary changes to get TCP/IP running in the kernel. As you might think now this is not so easy as it sounds. The sources for some objects of the kernel survied over the time, but many are missing. I'm now sitting here since a month disassembling the original kernel object and writing the disassembled code back in C. I've started this by having lets say nearly-to-zero ASM knowldege and I'm making good progress. Only some objects are left. From time to time the C files are not compiling to exactly the same object which is in the kernel. Some times other temporary registers are used for operations and so on. I'm trying to get 100% the same object to be 100% sure I have the same code the object was built with. The compiler on that system should be the same but of course I can't guarantee for sure. So - I'll probably ask some ASM<->C questions on cctech when I'm subscribed successfully (or I'll write and read the answers in the archive) hoping that there are still people alive being able to help me ;) Until know I had to find out that none was able to help me when I asked my ASM-C questions so I had to help me always by my own (which costs sometimes a great deal of time.... *sigh*). So far - greetings, Oliver -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 30 10:13:21 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> References: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >> The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't appear >> to have that. :) > > You know, I always suspected that due to the font on the display but I never > found anything that confirmed it. Did you find a source for that? Someone > else claimed it was an Apple II but had an equal paucity of evidence. It's using a cyan foreground color on a white background and the screen width appears to be 22 columns. What else could it be? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri May 30 10:16:21 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:16:21 -0400 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> References: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0805300816m2a3aef9ewe4b406091705f310@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't > appear > > to have that. :) > > You know, I always suspected that due to the font on the display but I > never > found anything that confirmed it. Did you find a source for that? Someone > else claimed it was an Apple II but had an equal paucity of evidence. The Apple II was used to drive the fake IMSAI display. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 30 10:18:25 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> References: <200805301504.m4UF4N9U023418@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't appear >> to have that. :) > > You know, I always suspected that due to the font on the display but I never > found anything that confirmed it. Did you find a source for that? Someone > else claimed it was an Apple II but had an equal paucity of evidence. According to this page: http://www.imsai.net/movies/wargames.htm ...the display was driven by an Apple II with a modified display driver card. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri May 30 10:18:20 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay Message-ID: Gene Buckle said: > The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't > appear to have that. :) Actually, the display was a "flourescent matrix" driven by a custom controller in an Apple ][. Some information about this is available on Todd Fischer's IMSAI website: http://www.imsai.net/movies/wargames.htm Search for "flourescent" to find the relevant bits, though the whole page has interesting history about the technology used in the movie from one of the guys who worked it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan at snarc.net Fri May 30 10:28:45 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1985.69.249.90.124.1212161325.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > Actually there is a company that makes new IMSAI chassis that will accept > both an S100 mother board and a PC ATX board (the console talks to it via > USB). > > http://www.imsai.net/ Good luck trying to buy one. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 30 10:32:20 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:32:20 -0700 Subject: last-minute TI-990 available Message-ID: <48401E04.5020603@bitsavers.org> > Otoh, the insides of the electronics are actually reasonably clean, and > it should be possible to revive most of it. When you start working on them, let me know and I'll send a drive exerciser. I have lots of TI spares from a former FE. Most of the service docs have been scanned. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 30 10:41:25 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:41:25 -0400 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080530171102.56bed603.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20080530171102.56bed603.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <48402025.4000108@gmail.com> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi everybody, > > after I tried over months to subscribe to both lists I'm now finally > subscribed to cctalk at least. AFAIK, you never have to subscribe to both lists. CCTALK is a superset of CCTECH. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 30 10:47:38 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't >> appear to have that. :) > > Actually, the display was a "flourescent matrix" driven by a custom > controller in an Apple ][. Some information about this is available on > Todd Fischer's IMSAI website: > > http://www.imsai.net/movies/wargames.htm > > Search for "flourescent" to find the relevant bits, though the whole page > has interesting history about the technology used in the movie from one of > the guys who worked it. > I'm going to have to rent that move again. I distinctly remember a Vic-20 display with a moving border of asterisks counting something down and I could have sworn the screen was a tiny little CRT in the side of the WOPR... Then again, I'm 40 so all sorts of crap is breaking. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri May 30 10:50:47 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 16:50:47 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800><012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: <030301c8c26c$ed9e7320$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > First, I agree with Tony, the transformer is most likelty > OK. Your earlier description wouldn't be enough to say it was > good or bad. > Measuring things on the primary side with a scope would be > difficult without using an isolation trasnsformer. The point > in the circuit that you'd need to use as ground reference has > about 150-170 volts DC on it. If you connected the scope > ground to this point you'd really blow things without using > an isolation transformer. > Next is that T3 is a pulse transformer and not an 60Hz AC > transformer. > The input is from the regulator chip, pins 8 and 11. One > should see a 50-150KHz pulse on these pins. > This would be the first place I'd look. My apologies - I previously stated that all T's were fed from the same AC input, but that's wrong. Mea culpa, my memory is rapidly fading, and I was going from memory... You can probably follow things from the schematic better than I can from the circuit board, however: The T3 transformer is fed via Q1 from one side of C7. I'm guessing that Q1 is what's generating the pulses? The other side of cap C7 feeds one half of T1 (power for this comes off the +ve side of the REC1), the other side of T1 coming from the middle pin (collector? Probably a different name on this device) of Q1. So...... OK, maybe Q1 is fried? Yet I can see a signal, of sorts, going into T1. I've not tried to measure it's amplitude, but it's definitely of mains (50hz, in my case) frequency. T3 - yes, that has a high-speed pulse going into it; I've not measured the frequency, but it's rapid. However, T3 has movement on both sides of the coil. Can remove T1 from the board & conduct an isolated test? If I connect a 9v battery (with a lightbulb in series, say) across the primary, would I expect to see a pulse of some kind come out of the secondary if it is working properly? Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 00:00 From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 30 11:18:42 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:18:42 -0500 Subject: Source for one-off ICs? Message-ID: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> I'm looking to buy 1 or 2 DS-1216e chips (they're clock chips) but am having trouble finding a reseller/distributor that will sell them in lots of less than 300. Does anyone know of a reseller for ICs that has somewhat reasonable one-off prices? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bert at brothom.nl Fri May 30 11:36:52 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 18:36:52 +0200 Subject: Source for one-off ICs? In-Reply-To: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> References: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48402D24.7090802@brothom.nl> Jim Leonard schreef: > I'm looking to buy 1 or 2 DS-1216e chips (they're clock chips) but am > having trouble finding a reseller/distributor that will sell them in > lots of less than 300. Does anyone know of a reseller for ICs that has > somewhat reasonable one-off prices? Quick answer, not having read possible other replies: Most semiconductor manufacturers supply samples free of charge, simple by requesting them on their website. DS = Dallas Semi? That's maxim now, so try maxim-ic.com. You have to give the right answers though: of course you have a company and your product will probably sell 1000s. Right? Otherwise: Farnell has ds1216s in several variations. Perhaps one you can use. Bert From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 30 11:50:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:50:10 -0400 Subject: last-minute TI-990 available In-Reply-To: <200805301452.m4UEqmBV011343@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200805301452.m4UEqmBV011343@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On May 30, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > For general interest, I picked up the system last night. The tall > rack > includes two CPUs, one older and one newer build, and a Fujitsu Eagle > drive. The two removable pack drives are Century Data units. > There are > about 10 disk packs for these drives. The prints and service > manual for > them is included, as is a 990 overview manual. There's also the 911 > terminal shown in the photo, as well as a wide carriage dot matrix > printer which was not. There is a box of miscellaneous cables > which may > or not actually match anything. This is not relevant to this particular rescue, but I know nothing about these systems and am curious. What type of OS and app software do machines like this run? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 30 11:53:41 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080530171102.56bed603.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20080530171102.56bed603.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <200805301654.MAA23228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...three lines about the person...] > [...sixty lines about the computer...] You'll fit in just fine here, I think. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bob at jfcl.com Fri May 30 12:20:32 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:20:32 -0700 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 30, 8 09:57:15 am" <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> >Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... Cheap, too - only $1,500 on eBay... That's less than a PDP-8 :-) Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 30 12:25:17 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:25:17 -0700 Subject: last-minute TI-990 available Message-ID: <4840387D.1020009@bitsavers.org> > This is not relevant to this particular rescue, but I know nothing > about these systems and am curious. What type of OS and app software > do machines like this run? 990's are 16 bit computers heavily influenced by the architecture of the pdp-11. The main difference is the working registers were kept in memory, allowing very fast context switches, at the expense of register access performance. Later machines cached the register sets. There was a small single-user floppy disk based os (for the 990/4 based on the TMS9900), but the main OS was DX-10, which was replaced by DNOS on the 990/12 series. Their primary use was in small buisiness, they had COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, and things like rje, data base and forms management packages, and networking. It seems they were widely used in inventory and parts management systems. The history of the 990 says the system was originally developed as part of a hotel management system. dave pitt's site (as well as bitsavers) are good sources of information http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Fri May 30 12:44:01 2008 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (sbolton at bfree.on.ca) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 13:44:01 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines Available In-Reply-To: <200805301151.m4UBphcs053184@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805301151.m4UBphcs053184@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080530134401.34s63lapcs04kogo@mail.bfree.on.ca> Here at the Personal Computer Museum in Brantford, Ontario, Canada (www.pcmuseum.ca) we've managed to build up around 80 extra BYTE magazines that I have no use for. They are all duplicate and I don't want to recycle them if someone out there can make use of them. They are not SUPER old ones but a variety and I would be willing to take photos of the spines for anyone interested. The magazines are free.....you can arrange pickup if you are nearby....I *can* ship them, but of course, it would be fairly costly but I am willing. Let me know please! From brain at jbrain.com Fri May 30 12:57:25 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:57:25 -0500 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48404005.60003@jbrain.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> The "original" WOPR used a Vic-20 as the display. This one doesn't >>> appear to have that. :) >> >> Actually, the display was a "flourescent matrix" driven by a custom >> controller in an Apple ][. Some information about this is available on >> Todd Fischer's IMSAI website: >> >> http://www.imsai.net/movies/wargames.htm >> >> Search for "flourescent" to find the relevant bits, though the whole >> page >> has interesting history about the technology used in the movie from >> one of >> the guys who worked it. >> > I'm going to have to rent that move again. I distinctly remember a > Vic-20 display with a moving border of asterisks counting something > down and I could have sworn the screen was a tiny little CRT in the > side of the WOPR... > > Then again, I'm 40 so all sorts of crap is breaking. :) I won't fault your memory. I watched this and was sure the unit was a VIC-20 screen, but I long ago decided otherwise, even before I read the IMSAI page about it. I have the DVD, so I checked it out: Time index 1:10:56 is where we see the screen. (David has just escaped from NORAD on the bus, and then we see a 360 pan around the WOPR) Screen is 16 characters wide by 16 characters high. Characters are 8x8 pixel ratio is 1:1, so it is not a VIC screen, which does not have 1:1 ratio 128x128 vacuum flourescent screen. Characters are bitmapped onto the screen, as the character lines do not match up to the 16x16 matrix, and adding the longer descender space also does not match up. I cut out an 'E' and pasted it alongside the screen capture to count the lines and positions to verify. bitmap available on request. Jim From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri May 30 13:13:28 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 13:13:28 -0500 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 30, 8 09:57:15 am" <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> Message-ID: <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... > > Cheap, too - only $1,500 on eBay... That's less than a PDP-8 :-) 1500? Hmm, maybe there's a market for selling reproductions of non-working computers that have been previously used in movies... Although "All systems are fully operational" has me curious ;) J. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 30 14:06:39 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <48404005.60003@jbrain.com> References: <48404005.60003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > I have the DVD, so I checked it out: > > Time index 1:10:56 is where we see the screen. (David has just escaped from > NORAD on the bus, and then we see a 360 pan around the WOPR) > > Screen is 16 characters wide by 16 characters high. > > Characters are 8x8 > > pixel ratio is 1:1, so it is not a VIC screen, which does not have 1:1 ratio > > 128x128 vacuum flourescent screen. Characters are bitmapped onto the screen, > as the character lines do not match up to the 16x16 matrix, and adding the > longer descender space also does not match up. > I cut out an 'E' and pasted it alongside the screen capture to count the > lines and positions to verify. > Damn. That almost makes me have to turn my Geek card in. Way beyond the call Jim. Thanks! :) Did you happen to see a display that looked like a Vic anywhere in the NORAD scenes? If not, I've got to figure out why I've got "vic-20" stored at the wrong address. *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From brain at jbrain.com Fri May 30 14:35:32 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:35:32 -0500 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <48404005.60003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <48405704.7040403@jbrain.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > Damn. That almost makes me have to turn my Geek card in. Way beyond > the call Jim. Thanks! :) > > Did you happen to see a display that looked like a Vic anywhere in the > NORAD scenes? If not, I've got to figure out why I've got "vic-20" > stored at the wrong address. *laughs* No, but most people wrongly assume the WOPR screen is a VIC, since it looks a lot like one, and has blocky letters like a VIC. All of the other screens I saw while reviewing the film for the scene were green screen units. Jim From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri May 30 15:09:13 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:09:13 +0100 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 30 May, 2008, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:11:02 +0200 > From: Oliver Lehmann > Subject: Introduction > To: Classic Computers Mailing List Welcome Oliver. > The system runs a Z8001 with 3 MMUs and Z80-peripherial ICs (PIO, > SIO...) > It also has 2 SIOs for 4 terminal connections, and one PIO to > connect the > WDC. The system also has two furhter PIO chips to establish a > connection > to the 8Bit system. The system runs with up to 4MB of DRAM but it > might > run with more RAM with self-made RAM modules. Three MMUs seems a bit weird. I last programmed a Z8001 in 1979 so maybe things have changed between then and when your machine was built. If I remember correctly, the Z8010 MMU mapped 64 of the 128 segments, you could have one MMU and address 64 chunks of up to 64k in the 16MB address range. With two MMUs you could access all 128 chunks. Are the MMUs set up for different processes, or are they divided into instruction and data accesses or some other way? The system I worked on would have eventually had 12 Z8001s each with one MMU and 128K of local RAM plus the CPU were grouped into modules of three and had about 3MB of RAM in the module and each module could also access the other 3 module's RAM, but with more wait states. Each Z8001 was responsible for managing a wide microprogrammed bit slice processor for doing heavy mathematics, though the details might still be secret even though the project was cancelled in the mid eighties, several years after I left the company. I got involved quite early, the first draft of the Z8001 instruction set manual which I was given included a memory to memory transfer instruction, but that was dropped before they issued the first sample chips about a year later. A bit of a blow as we had started writing a Coral 66 compiler for it by then. When I retire I might get around to getting myself a Z8001 system if there's any still around by then. I am kept busy at work programming Apple Macs and at home restoring a 1962 mainframe computer (ICT 1301) and restoring/maintaining my old cars (2 Daimlers, 2 Rovers, a Land Rover, a Jaguar and a BMW). I think you would have to be lucky to get your C code to use exactly the same registers as the original object code. Are you sure it was originally C or could it have been assembly code? From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri May 30 15:39:51 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 13:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue In-Reply-To: <4840387D.1020009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I picked up the first of two loads of Tandy model 6000 stuff today. The documentation alone filled up more than half of my Suburban. There are service notes with some schematics along with docs on Fortran, Cobol, Xenix, etc. Around 10 disk units, some the Bernoulli type. Next week I'll pick up the two machines, terminals, printers and floppy drives. Anyone out there with one of these machines? Al, do you want all of the documentation and software? I plan on keeping very little of this stuff, I just did not want to see it get scrapped. There are some 8" floppy drives I'll keep, along with about 20 Data General 10 MB cartridges. If anyone is looking for something, let me know. Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 30 15:57:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:57:36 -0600 Subject: BYTE Magazines Available In-Reply-To: <20080530134401.34s63lapcs04kogo@mail.bfree.on.ca> References: <200805301151.m4UBphcs053184@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080530134401.34s63lapcs04kogo@mail.bfree.on.ca> Message-ID: <48406A40.20309@jetnet.ab.ca> sbolton at bfree.on.ca wrote: > Here at the Personal Computer Museum in Brantford, Ontario, Canada > (www.pcmuseum.ca) we've managed to build up around 80 extra BYTE > magazines that I have no use for. They are all duplicate and I don't > want to recycle them if someone out there can make use of them. They > are not SUPER old ones but a variety and I would be willing to take > photos of the spines for anyone interested. > > The magazines are free.....you can arrange pickup if you are > nearby....I *can* ship them, but of course, it would be fairly costly > but I am willing. > > Let me know please! > > YES! I live I CANADA! Ben Franchuk #308 5517 47 AVE COLD LAKE, AB T9M 1V4 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 09:02:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:02:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 29, 8 08:56:53 pm Message-ID: > OK, let's talk failures ;) If you've got any links which give a sensible > description of how a switcher works, I'd be most grateful. I don;'t know of any useful on-line info. There's a pretty poor article in this month's Elektor magazine (which might give you some idea), and there's a reasonable description in the _second edition_ of The Art of Electronics (a book which you ought to have anyway...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 09:07:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:07:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <015301c8c1c6$27e20b70$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "Ade Vickers" at May 29, 8 08:56:54 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Hang on a second... > > > > Why do yuo think the transformer is the problem? > > > > This sounds like a switch-mode PSU. And while transformers > > can and do fail in those, it's not at all easy to diagnose > > the fact. They normally have windings witha very low DC > > resistance and will test as a dead short on any nornaml multimeter. > > OK, the reason I suspect a transformer; there's power getting as far as the > primary windings of the transformer (can be seen on an oscilloscope); and it > seems to conform to the "chopped" DC that I now know a switcher expects. And how exactly are you measuring that? Remember a voltmeter (or in this case a 'scope) has 2 leads, and measures the difference in votlage between them, What are you conencing the ground side of the 'scope to? My guess is the system 0V rail. But the chopper circuit is directly connected to the maisn, its 'common' is the -ve side of the mains smoothing capacitors. But of course if you connect the ground lead of the 'scope there, you'll flow fuses if you're lucky, nad do a lot of damage if you're not, becaue the 'scope is earthed, as is one side of the incoming mains (effectively). You can't probe around the primary side of a SMPSU unless either you have a 'scope with differential inputs and enough common-mode rejection to handle full mains voltage or you run the PSU off an isolating transformer. What frequency is this pulsing DC that you're seeing? If it's really the chopper waveform, it'll be 10's of kHz. My guess is it's nearer 50Hz, and whay you're seeing is effecively rectified mains due to the fact you've got the 'scope common connected to ground. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 09:10:26 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:10:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805292030.QAA16573@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 29, 8 04:29:28 pm Message-ID: > > > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, but > > especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test throught a > > light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary catastrophic > > failures" on more than one occation. > > And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs entirely. Indeed... Whele I use compact fluorescent bulbs a lot, there are 4 places where I stick to the old filament lamps : 1) Over my lathe. There is significant 50Hz flicker from compact fluorescents in my experience, I don't want the possible hazard of thinking something is stopped when in fact it's rotating at a multiple of the mains frequency 2) In my darkroom. CF's have a long afterglow when you turn them off, easily enough to fog film. I want a light source I can turn off instantly 3) In my copying stand, where I need a contimuous spectrum of light 4) In my SMPUS current limiter, for obvious electrical reasons. > > Stupid ideas spring eternal.... As I have said sevral times, when I was a kid, 'green' meant 'naive'. I don't believe that's changed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 09:14:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:14:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <20B5AA3700B@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at May 29, 8 03:50:43 pm Message-ID: > > > > (that's why I said 'unlucky -- if you just replace the transistor, the > > new one will most likely fail again at switch-on). > > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, but especially > a switcher), I usually power it up to test throught a light-bulb. At first with As do I (and everyone elase that I know). Even with a linear, you can connect a light bulb in seires with the mains transformer primary, and protect things if there's a dead short somewhere. With a switcher, while you might not save the ()expensive :-() chopper transistor if there's a real problem, at least you'll limit the current sufficiently to avoid traces being blown off the PCB, etc. > no load and a low wattage bulb (40w) - Most switchers won't run with no load, > but you will see the bulb pulse is it kicks - Brightly and solidly lit = investigate > further. If it passes that test, move up to a 100w bulb and just enough load to > get it to regulate. > > This is assuming a small (50-100w supply) - if it's a big monster adjust your > "current limit" accordingly. The 1kW halgone 'secourity lights' are useful as currnet limiters on larger devices. They proably won't save the transistors, but they will save PCB tracks, transformer windings, and the like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 09:23:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:23:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <002401c8c1d5$9196e7c0$0201a8c0@hal9000> from "Scanning" at May 29, 8 02:47:18 pm Message-ID: > > David, > > I agree with whomever wrote about sticking with Tek analog scopes. If you > want your squarewaves to look square though you need a bandwidth 10 times > the signal of interest ( i.e. 20 MHz squarewave 200 MHz scope ). The more Actually, you can get away with less (3 times is the absolute minimum, for obvious reasons) if you know how your 'scope is going to behave on that sort (and frequency) of signal. You'll not get the textbook traces, but if you know what to expect, you'll know when it's not right... > odd harmonics you can push through the more " square " it will be, and you > would like to pass the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics if possible. I still > like my OLD Tek ( 5000 BTU, Ethan could use this in the South Pole ) 535A > with CA plug-in for most old vintage stuff. The display is still as crisp And my 555 is alongside me right now :-) > and bright as the day I bought it ( used at a salvage sale ). I have a high About 15 years ago, we got a new Tek CRT 'scope where I was working. I tried it out, and to me the trace wasn't sharp. I complained to Tek, who claimed it was within spec, and asked what I was comparing it against. I said 'My old 555 at home'. Their comment was that the old 500 series had wonderfully sharp traces (if correctly set up), and nothing afterwards comes close... > dollar Tek digital LCD scope but was very disappointed to find out the 2 GS > / second front end is only 8 bits wide !! I only use it if I need a > hardcopy for a customer of some signal or to capture a signal that only > happens once. The signal displayed is only as " crisp " as the dots in the > LCD are small. Good luck in your search. Now, if you could find an HP > LogicDart cheap somewhere ......? Good luck :-). That's a wonderful instrument that was totally mis-marketed by HP, so nobody tired to buy them until it was too late :-( -tony From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri May 30 16:27:24 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:27:24 -0700 Subject: Introduction References: <20080530171102.56bed603.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <000701c8c29b$f3f358b0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Hi Oliver, And welcome to our group. This is a great bunch of guys ( sorry if there are any ladies out there ) spread throughout the world and covering just about every discipline you can think of inside and outside the tech world. The people here are extremely helpful and resourceful for the answers you can't find anywhere else and the parts that seem impossible to obtain. Think of the weirdest system ever built and there is probably someone here that has either helped design, worked on or has one in their basement. A better group of people you won't find anywhere else. Best regards, Steven ( located in Southern California, USA ) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri May 30 16:27:18 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 23:27:18 +0200 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080530232718.8a536ca6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Roger Holmes wrote: > Three MMUs seems a bit weird. I last programmed a Z8001 in 1979 so > maybe things have changed between then and when your machine was > built. If I remember correctly, the Z8010 MMU mapped 64 of the 128 > segments, you could have one MMU and address 64 chunks of up to 64k > in the 16MB address range. With two MMUs you could access all 128 > chunks. Are the MMUs set up for different processes, or are they > divided into instruction and data accesses or some other way? The system has three MMUs because it may also run non-segmented software even if it is a segmenting processor by having some hardware (break registers, comperators, logic) in front of the 3 MMUs. Having this, the system can work in 3 different modes: (1) Operating system segmented (CPU works in system mode): all 3 segments Code, Data and Stack are managed by MMU1, MMU2, MMU3 and the break registers are not activated (2) User process notsegmented (CPU works in normal-mode, segment number 63): MMU1 handles the code-segment, MMU2 the data-segment and MMU3 the stack-segment. the break regster is active and stears the data or stack MMU (3) User process segmented (CPU works in normal-mode): MMU2 and MMU3 are used to address all the 128 memory segments which may be code, data or stack segments. MU2 manages the segments 0...63, MMU3 the segments 64...127. > I think you would have to be lucky to get your C code to use exactly > the same registers as the original object code. Are you sure it was > originally C or could it have been assembly code? Some parts C, some parts assembly. The assembly code was easy to get back because it was just dissassembling + some comments ;) Ok - disassembly was easy after I got a decent disassembler - the first object generated originaly out of ASM code I disassembled by hand reading the hexdump - this took hours which made me searching harder for a Z8001 disassembler ;) The C parts are a bit harder... actual status: http://pofo.de/P8000/kernel.php -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri May 30 16:33:02 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:33:02 +0100 Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <002401c8c1d5$9196e7c0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <20080526200516.8z3m296ds8s0og8c@webmail.izone.at> <52107.71.139.37.220.1211861259.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <002401c8c1d5$9196e7c0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4840728E.5020502@gifford.co.uk> Scanning wrote: > LCD are small. Good luck in your search. Now, if you could find an HP > LogicDart cheap somewhere ......? I'm pleased to report that I was given an HP LogicDart the other day. Now, I'm looking for the HP 82240B infra-red printer for it... -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri May 30 16:34:24 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:34:24 -0700 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 30, 8 09:57:15 am" <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c8c29c$ee53b890$0201a8c0@hal9000> Don't forget with a cheesy add-on ( Votrax ? ) it even talks !! Best regards, Steven > Bob Armstrong wrote: > >> Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... > > > > Cheap, too - only $1,500 on eBay... That's less than a PDP-8 :-) > > 1500? Hmm, maybe there's a market for selling reproductions of non-working > computers that have been previously used in movies... > > Although "All systems are fully operational" has me curious ;) > > J. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri May 30 17:00:22 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:00:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDC / Honeywell system remains, Baltimore, MD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 29 May 2008, Tothwolf wrote: >> This is what I was led to believe was a card punch: >> >> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2525416845_d926411135.jpg >> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2362400257_e6c806024c.jpg > > Apparently you have never seen a modern mechanical calculator, have you? Sure, but I was told by someone far more knowledgeable than I when it comes to such machines that particular machine appeared to be some sort of card punch. I've not seen it for myself in person so I can't say for certain one way or another. There is likely some sort of card punch still there though as they used punch cards to run both the production systems and accounting systems. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 30 17:30:34 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 18:30:34 -0400 Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4840800A.7070800@neurotica.com> Tony Duell wrote: > About 15 years ago, we got a new Tek CRT 'scope where I was working. I > tried it out, and to me the trace wasn't sharp. I complained to Tek, who > claimed it was within spec, and asked what I was comparing it against. > said 'My old 555 at home'. Their comment was that the old 500 series had > wonderfully sharp traces (if correctly set up), and nothing afterwards > comes close... The only one I've seen that does (my first was a 545A) is the 453. NOT the -A variant, but the original 453. Fantastic trace quality. >> Now, if you could find an HP LogicDart cheap somewhere ......? > > Good luck :-). That's a wonderful instrument that was totally > mis-marketed by HP, so nobody tired to buy them until it was too late :-( I agree. They fetch serious money on eBay. HP has a history of discontinuing products when there's still significant demand. Dumb, dumb, dumb. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 30 17:36:08 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 18:36:08 -0400 Subject: Electronics Today International (ETI) "System 68" firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48408158.2060806@neurotica.com> Nick Jarmany wrote: > Does anyone out there remember the "System 68" project that ran as a > series in the UK magazine Electronics Today International (ETI) during > 1977? > > I built this when I was young, but unfortunately all my early hobby > stuff got slung out when my parents moved house. > > I have managed to re-create most of my "lost" issues of the magazine, > including the ones covering System 68, which was a simple M6800 based > system with a memory mapped VDU. > > Now, here's the question - does anyone out there remember this project > and, if so, would anyone happen to have a listing of the monitor > firmware? I believe the firmware for this system was derived from the > Motorola MIKBUG monitor, modified to suit the different hardware. > > I want to re-building this system, but so far have been unable to locate > the necessary firmware. I don't have the firmware you're looking for, but I'd love to see that article...are you able to scan it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Fri May 30 17:43:12 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:43:12 -0700 Subject: "Vintage Systems" Engineer job at Vulcan Message-ID: Jim Battle wrote on Wed Apr 30 10:42:01 CDT 2008: > Sellam Ismail wrote: >> Well, here it is, an invitation to apply to your dream job :) >> >> Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) > Who are these people, and what are they doing? Their website explains it all succinctly: Well, in point of fact, there is a website that explains what we are doing in a great deal of detail. Maybe it's not as much fun to know that. http://www.pdpplanet.org/ I signed up for the cctalk mailing list on 29 April, in order to post the job offering among a community that might actually match up with the job requirements. The "Welcome" message was not sent back for 30 days. In any case, those interested in working on a large, and growing, collection of vintage systems should go take a look at the Vulcan jobs website: http://jobs.vulcan.com/default.cfm?szCategory=JobProfile&szOrderID=1541& szJobCategory=15 We're still interviewing. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 30 18:34:16 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 18:34:16 -0500 Subject: "Vintage Systems" Engineer job at Vulcan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48408EF8.10000@pacbell.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > Jim Battle wrote on Wed Apr 30 10:42:01 CDT 2008: > >> Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> Well, here it is, an invitation to apply to your dream job :) >>> >>> Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) > >> Who are these people, and what are they doing? Their website explains > it all succinctly: > > Well, in point of fact, there is a website that explains what we are > doing in a great deal of detail. Maybe it's not as much fun to know > that. > > http://www.pdpplanet.org/ Rich, I think you are doing good stuff, and Paul Allen is doing interesting things with his money. No offense was intended. As an engineer it is always tempting to make fun of the marketing blandness that creates things like: "Vulcan creates and advances a variety of world-class endeavors and high impact initiatives that change and improve the way we live, learn, do business, and experience the world." Engineers in collusion with patent attorneys produce their own version of this. In an attempt to create super broad claims, the resulting overreaching blandness ends up not really describing something specific. Hopefully, the thought process that has effected a compact yet meaningful stream of multi-purpose ASCII symbols on your information display device has conveyed with greater clarity the original semi-whimsical statement which was formerly intended. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 30 18:49:37 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 18:49:37 -0500 Subject: DEC Brochures - already scanned? Message-ID: <51ea77730805301649m530b5696v93a0514592100bb0@mail.gmail.com> Last night I picked up some DEC equipment, and with it came two brochures and a book. The book I will probably list on ebay eventually, but the brochures I would like to scan and contribute to Bitsavers and/or anyone who collects such things and is willing to host the .pdf files. But before going to the trouble of scanning them, can anyone tell me if it has already been done? One is for the VT52/DECScope, and the other is for the 11/70, both with many lovely photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/2537619814 http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/2536801495/in/photostream/ The book is the "dos/batch handbook" and appears to be from 1974. It is truly massive, like city phone book-sized. I've never seen a DEC manual this large. I won't be scanning this one ;) -- j From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 30 18:51:47 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 18:51:47 -0500 Subject: DEC Brochures - already scanned? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805301649m530b5696v93a0514592100bb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730805301649m530b5696v93a0514592100bb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730805301651m6ebfa11eu5e270f047086a5a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Jason T wrote: Sorry, here is the cover of the dos/batch book. Just trying to judge the rarity of this one... http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/2536649937 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 30 18:57:31 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 16:57:31 -0700 Subject: DEC Brochures - already scanned? Message-ID: <4840946B.7090200@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/dos-batch/DosBatchHandbook_v9_Apr74 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 30 19:13:51 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 19:13:51 -0500 Subject: DEC Brochures - already scanned? In-Reply-To: <4840946B.7090200@bitsavers.org> References: <4840946B.7090200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730805301713q132d076t8985de0972b7c865@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/dos-batch/DosBatchHandbook_v9_Apr74 Wow, that must have been a brutal scanning job. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri May 30 22:33:52 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:33:52 -0700 Subject: buying an oscilloscope References: Message-ID: <000701c8c2cf$272ba650$0201a8c0@hal9000> Ah Tony, I like my squarewaves to be really SQUARE. Sometimes when they aren't, that's the real problem ( like a sloppy risetime / falltime ? ) when you are troubleshooting. Therefore I will stick by my 10 times BW statement. I like my woman round and curvy, but not my squarewaves. At the risk of being hated by all on the list, I STOLE an HP LogicDart off of E-pay for $140 from someone who didn't know what it was ( with probes and the whole enchilada, even a carrying case ) . I guess the gods of technology were shining upon me that day. Hasn't happened since though, so I guess I used up my favors. You can troubleshoot with a logic probe and a DMM but I prefer not too if I have the option. With a LogicDart though you can conquer the world. Best regards, Steven > > > > David, > > > > I agree with whomever wrote about sticking with Tek analog scopes. If you > > want your squarewaves to look square though you need a bandwidth 10 times > > the signal of interest ( i.e. 20 MHz squarewave 200 MHz scope ). The more > > Actually, you can get away with less (3 times is the absolute minimum, > for obvious reasons) if you know how your 'scope is going to behave on > that sort (and frequency) of signal. You'll not get the textbook traces, > but if you know what to expect, you'll know when it's not right... > > > odd harmonics you can push through the more " square " it will be, and you > > would like to pass the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics if possible. I still > > like my OLD Tek ( 5000 BTU, Ethan could use this in the South Pole ) 535A > > with CA plug-in for most old vintage stuff. The display is still as crisp > > And my 555 is alongside me right now :-) > > > and bright as the day I bought it ( used at a salvage sale ). I have a high > > About 15 years ago, we got a new Tek CRT 'scope where I was working. I > tried it out, and to me the trace wasn't sharp. I complained to Tek, who > claimed it was within spec, and asked what I was comparing it against. I > said 'My old 555 at home'. Their comment was that the old 500 series had > wonderfully sharp traces (if correctly set up), and nothing afterwards > comes close... > > > dollar Tek digital LCD scope but was very disappointed to find out the 2 GS > > / second front end is only 8 bits wide !! I only use it if I need a > > hardcopy for a customer of some signal or to capture a signal that only > > happens once. The signal displayed is only as " crisp " as the dots in the > > LCD are small. Good luck in your search. Now, if you could find an HP > > LogicDart cheap somewhere ......? > > Good luck :-). That's a wonderful instrument that was totally > mis-marketed by HP, so nobody tired to buy them until it was too late :-( > > -tony > > __________ NOD32 3148 (20080530) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 30 22:47:47 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:47:47 -0700 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <030301c8c26c$ed9e7320$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800><012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <030301c8c26c$ed9e7320$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: > From: javickers at solutionengineers.com ---snip some --- > > My apologies - I previously stated that all T's were fed from the same AC > input, but that's wrong. Mea culpa, my memory is rapidly fading, and I was > going from memory... > > You can probably follow things from the schematic better than I can from the > circuit board, however: > > The T3 transformer is fed via Q1 from one side of C7. I'm guessing that Q1 > is what's generating the pulses? Hi Ade No, Q1 is on the secondary side of T3, not the primary. IC1 generates the pulse that go through T3 and cause Q1 to turn on for the short pulses. I'll try to walk you through how this particular supply works. ---snip-- some more > > Can remove T1 from the board & conduct an isolated test? If I connect a 9v > battery (with a lightbulb in series, say) across the primary, would I expect > to see a pulse of some kind come out of the secondary if it is working > properly? It is unlikely that you'd see anything more than a small spike on a scope The T1 seems to have about a 100:1 ratio or more. Let me try to describe how this supply works. This should help you fix it. First, T2 provides power to IC1. IC1 monitors the 12 volts out through R14, VR2 and R12 network. If it is more than 12 volts, IC1 will sorten the pulse on time to T3. If the voltage is too low it will increase the pulse width. The other components around IC1 provide time constants for the pulse frequency and filter of response time of the regulation. IC1 also has a current monitor that looks at R11. If the voltage across R11 is too high it will turn on a circuit to stop the pulses to T3. Now, lets look at the high voltage side. As Tony has stated, you can't see much on a scope because of the fact that everything is following the ac input. Where you'd want to connect the ground would blow a fuse, unless you ran differential or as I suggested, use an isolation transformer. First the input AC goes through the filter network of L1 and some capacitors. It then goes through a full wave rectifier, causing a DC voltage to be developed on C7. You should measure this voltage with an ungrounded meter. You should see about 300volts across C7. If not, something is open in the input circuits. If, as you say, you see pulses on T3's primary side, it must be in the bridge rectifier is open. The voltages measured relative to ground have little meaning. T3's secondary is connected to the emitter and base of Q1. The pulse will cause Q1 to turn on for a short time. Since this is a short pulse,T1's secondary will see a voltage spike as well. This will forward bias the leg of D6 from the transformer to L2, charging C14. When the pulse is gone on T3's output, Q1 turns off. This turns the top leg of D6 off. Because some energy is now stored in L2, the bottom leg of D6 will now conduct, further charging C14. It is this voltage that feeds back to IC1 to change the pulse width going to T3 and on to Q1. This completes the 12 volt part of the supply. The 5 volt output is completely supplied from the 12 volt line. If there is no 12 volts, there is no 5 volts. The 12 volts powers IC2 that sets the regulation of the 5 volt output. It is directly connected to the transistors that switch the DC from the 12 volt line to the 5 volt. IC2 turns on Q4 and Q3 for a short amount of time. This causes current to flow in L5 and charge C21. When IC2 turns off Q4 and Q3, L5 will still have some stored energy, causing D7 bto conduct, further charging C21. IC2 monitors the voltage and adjust the pulse width to keep the output at 5V, in the same way as IC1 did. Besides testing the voltage across C7, as I suggested earlier ( being very careful not to electricute one self, you might also unsolder Q1 and see if it is shorted. This supply is also unique in that the 5 volt part runs from the 12 volt side. It would be possible to connect a 12 volt bench supply to the 12 volt output leads ( with the mains not connected ) and see if the 5 volt output works OK. That is all I have for now. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 30 23:01:27 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:01:27 -0700 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk > Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:09:13 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Introduction > > > On 30 May, 2008, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:11:02 +0200 >> From: Oliver Lehmann >> Subject: Introduction >> To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > Welcome Oliver. > > >> The system runs a Z8001 with 3 MMUs and Z80-peripherial ICs (PIO, >> SIO...) >> It also has 2 SIOs for 4 terminal connections, and one PIO to >> connect the >> WDC. The system also has two furhter PIO chips to establish a >> connection >> to the 8Bit system. The system runs with up to 4MB of DRAM but it >> might >> run with more RAM with self-made RAM modules. > > ---snip--- > > When I retire I might get around to getting myself a Z8001 system if > there's any still around by then. I am kept busy at work programming > Apple Macs and at home restoring a 1962 mainframe computer (ICT 1301) > and restoring/maintaining my old cars (2 Daimlers, 2 Rovers, a Land > Rover, a Jaguar and a BMW). > Hi One can still get a Olivetti M20 but mose I've seen come up on the Italian eBay. These don't have a MMU but instead use a ROM to decode segements. It is limited to 512K of RAM. It does have one segement where the data and instruction are mapped to two different physical memories, giving a total of 128K within one segement. The M20 can run the version of CP/M that DRI came up with. It has a C compilers as well asn an assembler. It can also have a hard disk connected but the original controllers are hard to find. It is software compatable with the WD1000 controller. I use a TRS80 controller and a ST251 drive. I did need to modify the code to deal with stepping differences between the original olivetti drive and the ST251. I just use the auto stepping. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 30 23:18:27 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:18:27 -0700 Subject: DEC Brochures - already scanned? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805301651m6ebfa11eu5e270f047086a5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730805301649m530b5696v93a0514592100bb0@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730805301651m6ebfa11eu5e270f047086a5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 6:51 PM -0500 5/30/08, Jason T wrote: >Sorry, here is the cover of the dos/batch book. Just trying to judge >the rarity of this one... > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/2536649937 CBHRC has two copies of this that I donated. I forget how I ended up with two copies, I think I got one or both with other stuff. No clue on the rarity. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 31 00:44:26 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:44:26 -0700 Subject: DEC Brochures - already scanned? Message-ID: <4840E5BA.1040005@bitsavers.org> > Wow, that must have been a brutal scanning job. Paper cutter and a sheet feeder. Biggest challenge was dealing with thin paper. I've switched to a different brand of scanner that can handle it better now to deal with the data books. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 31 01:34:33 2008 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 23:34:33 -0700 Subject: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue In-Reply-To: <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4840387D.1020009@bitsavers.org> <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <078801c8c2e8$63aea410$6a01a8c0@liberator> I still miss my tandy 6000 I had several years ago... very nice box as long as you had spare HDD's for the external storage unit. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat May 31 01:41:27 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 08:41:27 +0200 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> dwight elvey wrote: > It is software compatable with the WD1000 controller. I use > a TRS80 controller and a ST251 drive. I did need to modify > the code to deal with stepping differences between the original > olivetti drive and the ST251. I just use the auto stepping. > Dwight Can you tell me a bit more about this? I can connect MFM drives to my WDC too but I've problems with ST251-1 while ST251-0 are working. I think that the -1 is probably somewhat different then the -0 but I'm not sure where to look at in the WDC firmware (source is 86K) for what to change... http://pofo.de/P8000/misc/sources/EAW/Firmware/Firmware_-_MON16-WDC/WDC/wdc.firm.s I can switch something in the firmware from 40MHz to 41,4MHz but neither this helps nor do I know what this means.... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat May 31 03:25:45 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:25:45 +0100 Subject: Source for one-off ICs? In-Reply-To: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> References: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1212222345.12629.33.camel@elric> On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 11:18 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm looking to buy 1 or 2 DS-1216e chips (they're clock chips) but am > having trouble finding a reseller/distributor that will sell them in > lots of less than 300. Does anyone know of a reseller for ICs that has > somewhat reasonable one-off prices? I buy all the bits like that I need off eBay. It's generally much quicker and cheaper to get some dude in China to post them out than to get a local supplier. Maplin, for example, wanted 6 quid per chip for 16F84s, web order only, with a lead time of two weeks... Gordon From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat May 31 06:00:15 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:00:15 +0200 Subject: C <-> ASM translation problem Message-ID: <20080531130015.2f61d66d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, As I promissed here comes my first question ;) While writing several C files for the WEGA/ZEUS kernel out of the disassembled objects (with unresolved symbols marked as external) I came across a piece of code I can't get to reproduce when compiling C. The original object contains: 0006de: 35a2 0004 ldl rr2,rr10(#$0004) 0006e2: 9424 ldl rr4,rr2 0006e4: 0704 7f00 and r4,#$7f00 0006e8: 5d04 8000 0004 ldl $8000+$0x4,rr4 I tried to reproduce it: ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; Which generates: 0008 35a2 0004 59 ldl rr2,rr10(#4) 000c 0702 7f00 60 and r2,#32512 0010 5d02 8000* 61 ldl _ipc+4,rr2 0014 0004* which looks for me functional the same... I also tried: ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long *)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; Which generates: 0010 35a2 0004 60 ldl rr2,rr10(#4) 0014 1424 61 ldl rr4, at rr2 0016 0704 7f00 62 and r4,#32512 001a 5d04 8000* 63 ldl _ipc+4,rr4 Which looks "better" but isn't the same as the original because the adress of rr2 gets loaded into rr4 first, not rr2 itself. I'm a bit lost because I tried several different */&-pointer stuff to get this as it is in the original object without success. the elements ip_addr and addr are both of type saddr_t which is declare as follows: typedef union { caddr_t l; struct { unsigned left; unsigned right; } half; } saddr_t; /* segmented address with parts */ rr4 itself gets later overwritten in both codes - my code and the original object - it is not reserved for an internal C-variable. Maybe someone from you can help me here? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Sat May 31 06:49:45 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 07:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wang the Perverted In-Reply-To: <001f01c8c29c$ee53b890$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 30, 8 09:57:15 am" <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> <001f01c8c29c$ee53b890$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: My name is Bob and this is my first post. What caused me to join this discussion group was a wang computer that came into my possession that had two 5 1/4 diskette drives, one internal and the other external. It seemed to require its own peculiar start up disk and I suspect it would have to be a formatted 160 or 180 kbit job. Finding out information on this thing only seemed to lead to dead ends. I cannot get greater specifics as I stored the thing in an inconvenient place when I took it off the workbench. respectfully bob schwier From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat May 31 08:12:56 2008 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:12:56 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> from "AdeVickers" at May 29, 8 08:56:53 pm Message-ID: <045701c8c320$0ae50490$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > OK, let's talk failures ;) If you've got any links which give a > > sensible description of how a switcher works, I'd be most grateful. > > I don;'t know of any useful on-line info. There's a pretty > poor article in this month's Elektor magazine (which might > give you some idea), and there's a reasonable description in > the _second edition_ of The Art of Electronics (a book which > you ought to have anyway...) I have the AofE 2nd edn (I think it's 2nd edn, anyway), I'll take a look. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 00:00 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 31 08:18:31 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:18:31 -0400 Subject: Thanks! RE:XT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard Message-ID: <000001c8c320$d2ac34d0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi All, I just wanted to say "Thank you" to everyone who helped me fix this classic IBM XT motherboard with the Diagnostic ROM image and the settings for the AWARD POSTcard. Long story short, I replaced a 74LS245 and a faulty DRAM chip and now the board boots fine. Of course half the fun is finding what actually works, what doesn't, what appears to be broken but actually works, what is broken but appears to be working, etc. You know the drill, I am sure. Fixing an old broken 16 bit VGA card which works in an 8 bit ISA slot helped a lot. As did the old style PC/XT style floppy drive controller... So anyway, it's fixed and I booted MS-DOS 5.0 and the Advanced IBM Diagnostics from a 5.25" floppy disk drive. So I think we are there. THANKS! Andrew Lynch PS, BTW the XT Diagnostic ROM image seems to work best when burned into a 2764 EPROM. I tried various other types of EPROM but the 2764 seems to work best. I think IBM did some weird remapping of their custom Mask BIOS ROM... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 31 09:45:00 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 07:45:00 -0700 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: Hi My German isn't that good. If the step rate is the problem, I did see a couple routines that were creating steps. One was RAMP. Setting the controllers step rate is always done on just one port. I forget which. All you should really need to do is find all the out's to that port and set the step to the auto rate. For my code, it was only in two places. Dwight > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > > dwight elvey wrote: > >> It is software compatable with the WD1000 controller. I use >> a TRS80 controller and a ST251 drive. I did need to modify >> the code to deal with stepping differences between the original >> olivetti drive and the ST251. I just use the auto stepping. >> Dwight > > Can you tell me a bit more about this? I can connect MFM drives to my WDC > too but I've problems with ST251-1 while ST251-0 are working. I think > that the -1 is probably somewhat different then the -0 but I'm not sure > where to look at in the WDC firmware (source is 86K) for what to > change... > http://pofo.de/P8000/misc/sources/EAW/Firmware/Firmware_-_MON16-WDC/WDC/wdc.firm.s > > I can switch something in the firmware from 40MHz to 41,4MHz but neither > this helps nor do I know what this means.... > > -- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 31 09:44:56 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:44:56 -0500 Subject: Thanks! RE:XT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard In-Reply-To: <000001c8c320$d2ac34d0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000001c8c320$d2ac34d0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <48416468.5090300@oldskool.org> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Long story short, I replaced a 74LS245 and a faulty DRAM chip and now the > board boots fine. The DRAM I could probably figure out myself, but how did you determine the 74LS245 was at fault? (I, too, have a 5150 that won't boot) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 31 09:57:15 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:57:15 -0500 Subject: Wang the Perverted In-Reply-To: References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 30, 8 09:57:15 am" <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> <001f01c8c29c$ee53b890$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4841674B.6090709@pacbell.net> schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > My name is Bob and this is my first post. > What caused me to join this discussion group was a wang computer that > came into my possession that had two 5 1/4 diskette drives, one > internal and the other external. > It seemed to require its own peculiar start up disk and I suspect it > would have to be a formatted 160 or 180 kbit job. > Finding out information on this thing only seemed to lead to dead ends. > I cannot get greater specifics as I stored the thing in an inconvenient > place when I took it off the workbench. > respectfully > bob schwier > > > Bob, Wang made many different computers of the course of three decades. Can you say which one you are talking about? Or some information that might help narrow it down? From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 31 10:17:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:17:47 -0400 Subject: Wang the Perverted In-Reply-To: <4841674B.6090709@pacbell.net> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> <4841674B.6090709@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200805311117.47464.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 31 May 2008 10:57, Jim Battle wrote: > schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > My name is Bob and this is my first post. > > What caused me to join this discussion group was a wang computer that > > came into my possession that had two 5 1/4 diskette drives, one > > internal and the other external. > > It seemed to require its own peculiar start up disk and I suspect it > > would have to be a formatted 160 or 180 kbit job. > > Finding out information on this thing only seemed to lead to dead ends. > > I cannot get greater specifics as I stored the thing in an inconvenient > > place when I took it off the workbench. > > respectfully > > bob schwier > > Bob, > > Wang made many different computers of the course of three decades. Can > you say which one you are talking about? Or some information that might > help narrow it down? Those disk formats sound like their "PC" with single-sided drives, 8 or 9 sectors / track offhand... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 31 10:30:54 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:30:54 -0400 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 30 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, > > > but especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test > > > throught a light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary > > > catastrophic failures" on more than one occation. > > > > And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs > > entirely. > > Indeed... I don't see what the problem is. There are much more efficient methods of lighting, than the one that Edison worked a lot on over 100 years ago. In addition to compact fluorescent lamps, you can get LED-based bulbs, halogen lamps (which still are effectively incandescent, but a bit better), and various gas-discharge lamps. > Whele I use compact fluorescent bulbs a lot, there are 4 places where > I stick to the old filament lamps : > > 1) Over my lathe. There is significant 50Hz flicker from compact > fluorescents in my experience, I don't want the possible hazard of > thinking something is stopped when in fact it's rotating at a > multiple of the mains frequency I don't think I've ever seen a CF that had a ballast that operated at mains frequency. Usually, a switching supply that runs at many kHz. Normal fluorescent bulbs, with a "magnetic" ballast instead of an "electronic" ballast, though could produce your 50Hz flicker. CF bulbs would need do be quite a bit bigger and heavier to have a 50/60Hz ballast in them. Between that, and the phosphor persistence of the bulb, I don't think this could be a real problem. If it is, you could always just run a fluorescent bulb off of a DC supply. :) > 2) In my darkroom. CF's have a long afterglow when you turn them off, > easily enough to fog film. I want a light source I can turn off > instantly LED lights turn off much faster than Incandescent bulbs do. Plus, it's easy to get/make one that produces red light. :) > 3) In my copying stand, where I need a contimuous spectrum of light Halogen? There are fairly good spectrum flourescent bulbs available these days, but I've not tried to look at them through a prism. > 4) In my SMPUS current limiter, for obvious electrical reasons. Halogen? Maybe a properly engineered RL circuit instead of some cobbled-together light-bulb current limiter. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 31 10:41:15 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs >>> entirely. >> Indeed... > I don't see what the problem is. There are much more efficient > methods of lighting, True-- but irrelevant to the discussion. This is a use for an incandescent bulb for which its light-generating properties are secondary to its electrical characteristics (but nevertheless useful). Presumably a 144-ohm 100-watt resistor would do, but not as well because (a) they're much more expensive and (b) they don't provide the immediate visual indication of current a light bulb does. In some applications (though probably not current-limiting for devices such as SMPSUs), they might not do because they don't vary their resistance depending on current, which incandescent bulbs do. > In addition to compact fluorescent lamps, you can get LED-based > bulbs, halogen lamps (which still are effectively incandescent, but a > bit better), and various gas-discharge lamps. ...none of which function, electrically, like incandescent bulbs. >> 4) In my SMPUS current limiter, for obvious electrical reasons. > Halogen? Halogens are still incandescent and presumably would be covered by a ban on incandescent bulbs. > Maybe a properly engineered RL circuit instead of some > cobbled-together light-bulb current limiter. :) An incandescent bulb is cheap, easy, simple, damn near foolproof, and provides immediate visual feedback on how much current it's carrying. It is probably possible to build a current limiter that provides immediate visual feedback. I challenge you, or anyone for that matter, to come up with such a design that is as cheap, easy, simple, and foolproof as an incandescent bulb. (Well, not cheap once the ban hits, which is the problem.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 31 11:15:45 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:15:45 -0700 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <107EC1ADE3FB41038411F8BD5D8CF1E2@xp1800><010201c8c0ee$4e93d600$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><0A7BE0601CCD4B10A84E44F4F07E6D65@xp1800><012b01c8c0f7$d2e160e0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com><94719F15E1674A4BB46B168F39A1A821@xp1800> <015201c8c1c6$276142b0$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> <030301c8c26c$ed9e7320$0b01a8c0@solutionengineers.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:47:47 -0700 > Subject: RE: Transformer repairs > > > > > >> From: javickers at solutionengineers.com > ---snip some --- >> >> My apologies - I previously stated that all T's were fed from the same AC >> input, but that's wrong. Mea culpa, my memory is rapidly fading, and I was >> going from memory... >> >> You can probably follow things from the schematic better than I can from the >> circuit board, however: >> >> The T3 transformer is fed via Q1 from one side of C7. I'm guessing that Q1 >> is what's generating the pulses? > > Hi Ade > No, Q1 is on the secondary side of T3, not the primary. IC1 generates > the pulse that go through T3 and cause Q1 to turn on for the short pulses. > I'll try to walk you through how this particular supply works. > > ---snip-- some more >> >> Can remove T1 from the board & conduct an isolated test? If I connect a 9v >> battery (with a lightbulb in series, say) across the primary, would I expect >> to see a pulse of some kind come out of the secondary if it is working >> properly? > > It is unlikely that you'd see anything more than a small spike on a scope > The T1 seems to have about a 100:1 ratio or more. Oops! should have said 10:1 or more. Dwight > > Let me try to describe how this supply works. This should help you fix it. > > First, T2 provides power to IC1. IC1 monitors the 12 volts out through > R14, VR2 and R12 network. If it is more than 12 volts, IC1 will sorten > the pulse on time to T3. If the voltage is too low it will increase the pulse > width. > The other components around IC1 provide time constants for the pulse > frequency and filter of response time of the regulation. IC1 also has > a current monitor that looks at R11. If the voltage across R11 is too > high it will turn on a circuit to stop the pulses to T3. > Now, lets look at the high voltage side. As Tony has stated, you can't see > much on a scope because of the fact that everything is following the ac input. > Where you'd want to connect the ground would blow a fuse, unless you > ran differential or as I suggested, use an isolation transformer. > First the input AC goes through the filter network of L1 and some capacitors. > It then goes through a full wave rectifier, causing a DC voltage to be developed > on C7. You should measure this voltage with an ungrounded meter. You should > see about 300volts across C7. If not, something is open in the input circuits. > If, as you say, you see pulses on T3's primary side, it must be in the bridge > rectifier is open. The voltages measured relative to ground have little meaning. > T3's secondary is connected to the emitter and base of Q1. The pulse > will cause Q1 to turn on for a short time. Since this is a short pulse,T1's > secondary will see a voltage spike as well. > This will forward bias the leg of D6 from the transformer to L2, charging > C14. When the pulse is gone on T3's output, Q1 turns off. This turns > the top leg of D6 off. > Because some energy is now stored in L2, the bottom leg of D6 will > now conduct, further charging C14. It is this voltage that feeds back to > IC1 to change the pulse width going to T3 and on to Q1. > This completes the 12 volt part of the supply. > The 5 volt output is completely supplied from the 12 volt line. If there is > no 12 volts, there is no 5 volts. > The 12 volts powers IC2 that sets the regulation of the 5 volt output. > It is directly connected to the transistors that switch the DC from the > 12 volt line to the 5 volt. > IC2 turns on Q4 and Q3 for a short amount of time. This causes > current to flow in L5 and charge C21. When IC2 turns off Q4 and Q3, > L5 will still have some stored energy, causing D7 bto conduct, further > charging C21. > IC2 monitors the voltage and adjust the pulse width to keep the > output at 5V, in the same way as IC1 did. > Besides testing the voltage across C7, as I suggested earlier ( being > very careful not to electricute one self, you might also unsolder Q1 and > see if it is shorted. > This supply is also unique in that the 5 volt part runs from the 12 volt > side. It would be possible to connect a 12 volt bench supply to the > 12 volt output leads ( with the mains not connected ) and see if the > 5 volt output works OK. > That is all I have for now. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Change the world with e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 31 12:55:52 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 10:55:52 -0700 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311700.m4VH0P0x074590@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200805311700.m4VH0P0x074590@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48412EB8.10033.50EB37@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:41:15 -0400 (EDT) > From: der Mouse > It is probably possible to build a current limiter that provides > immediate visual feedback. I challenge you, or anyone for that matter, > to come up with such a design that is as cheap, easy, simple, and > foolproof as an incandescent bulb. (Well, not cheap once the ban hits, > which is the problem.) How's this? Grab a glass jar, fill with water and a salt of your choice, say, bicarbonate of soda, drop two electrodes into it (stainless steel or carbon is good; aluminum will tend to polarize after awhile and form a leaky rectifier). Apply current and watch for bubbles and/or steam. Vary resistance by varying the distance between electrodes. Or use a dill pickle instead if you like glowing pyrotechnics. We will always have appliances with heating elements floating around that can be pressed into use, particularly where higher-power loads are concerned. What I don't like about incandescents used as a load-limiter is the very low cold resistance. I'd much rather have a "soft" start--but then carbon-filament incandescents haven't been easy to find for the last 80 years or so. Cheers, Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Sat May 31 13:10:40 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:10:40 -0700 Subject: Carbon-filament incandescents (was: Re: Transformer repairs) In-Reply-To: <48412EB8.10033.50EB37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805311700.m4VH0P0x074590@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48412EB8.10033.50EB37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <484194A0.6030505@mainecoon.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I don't like about incandescents used as a load-limiter is the > very low cold resistance. I'd much rather have a "soft" start--but > then carbon-filament incandescents haven't been easy to find for the > last 80 years or so. They're not all that hard to find. Rejuvenation has them in assorted wattages: http://www.rejuvenation.com/fixshowMRB3/templates/selection.phtml -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From bob at jfcl.com Sat May 31 13:13:21 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:13:21 -0700 Subject: Old style DEC 5-1/4" "pop panel" needed (will trade for 10 1/2") Message-ID: <004101c8c34a$0290a810$07b1f830$@com> I need a DEC, old style, "pop panel" blank rack panel that's 5 1/4" high. I'd be happy to trade for a 10 1/2" pop panel if that helps anybody (heck, I'll trade for two - I've got several of the 10 1/2 panels). Thanks, Bob Armstrong From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 31 13:31:00 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:31:00 -0400 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200805311431.00163.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 31 May 2008, der Mouse wrote: > >>> And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs > >>> entirely. > >> > >> Indeed... > > > > I don't see what the problem is. There are much more efficient > > methods of lighting, > > True-- but irrelevant to the discussion. If you're worried about a ban on incandescent bulbs for the purpose of current-limiting device, then stockpile a bunch of them for your own use. It's not like you're going to go through them quickly in this application. I think that the power savings is worth the annoyances of a ban. > > In addition to compact fluorescent lamps, you can get LED-based > > bulbs, halogen lamps (which still are effectively incandescent, but > > a bit better), and various gas-discharge lamps. > > ...none of which function, electrically, like incandescent bulbs. Halogen bulbs do. > >> 4) In my SMPUS current limiter, for obvious electrical reasons. > > > > Halogen? > > Halogens are still incandescent and presumably would be covered by a > ban on incandescent bulbs. Not from what I've seen. ISTR that halogen bulbs are actually more efficient in lumens/watt than a "standard" incandescent bulb. > > Maybe a properly engineered RL circuit instead of some > > cobbled-together light-bulb current limiter. :) > > An incandescent bulb is cheap, easy, simple, damn near foolproof, and > provides immediate visual feedback on how much current it's carrying. > > It is probably possible to build a current limiter that provides > immediate visual feedback. I challenge you, or anyone for that > matter, to come up with such a design that is as cheap, easy, simple, > and foolproof as an incandescent bulb. (Well, not cheap once the ban > hits, which is the problem.) A "ban" such as those proposed is only a ban on sales of new bulbs, not on *using* them... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 31 14:49:11 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 15:49:11 -0400 Subject: Thanks! REXT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard Message-ID: <008b01c8c357$65d30b40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Long story short, I replaced a 74LS245 and a faulty DRAM chip and now the > board boots fine. The DRAM I could probably figure out myself, but how did you determine the 74LS245 was at fault? (I, too, have a 5150 that won't boot) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org ) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ -----REPLY----- Hi, The old fashioned way; I used an oscilloscope to compare the inputs and outputs of the bus transceiver. One of the buffers was dead and all of the outputs on one side looked "funny" so I desoldered it and replaced it with a new one. Of course, the IBM PC/XT motherboards have few sockets so desoldering and replacing the chip was awful. I tried to nicely desolder it but ended up destroying the chip and cutting it out. One thing I really like about VG, NorthStar, Kaypro, and Heath is almost their entire motherboards are socketed. Yes, I know direct soldered chips are technically more reliable but they are a PITA to replace when they do fail. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 20:38:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 02:38:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: buying an oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <4840728E.5020502@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 30, 8 10:33:02 pm Message-ID: > > Scanning wrote: > > LCD are small. Good luck in your search. Now, if you could find an HP > > LogicDart cheap somewhere ......? > > I'm pleased to report that I was given an HP LogicDart the other day. The phrase 'you lucky beggasr' springs to mind :-) > > Now, I'm looking for the HP 82240B infra-red printer for it... It's the same printer as is used with the HP48S/SX/G/GX, the HP41 (with the IR module), etc. It's a lot easier to find that the LogicDart. I picked one up from a frined at HPCC along with a lot of other old HP stuff... Be warend that the IR transmission to the printer is one-way only (no handshake, even) and is none-too-reliable. I find that perhaps one dump in 5 is mangled and has to be done again. You also have to position the LogicDart and printer just right (not easy when you've got the former balanced on top of a PDP11). The thermal printing doesn't last that long either (it fases with time), but that's easy to get round by photocopying (or I guess scanning) the printouts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 20:57:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 02:57:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 31, 8 11:30:54 am Message-ID: > > On Friday 30 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, > > > > but especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test > > > > throught a light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary > > > > catastrophic failures" on more than one occation. > > > > > > And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs > > > entirely. > > > > Indeed... > > I don't see what the problem is. There are much more efficient methods > of lighting, than the one that Edison worked a lot on over 100 years > ago. So? I would agree that in many application CFs (or other technologies) are superior to filamnet lamps. Which is why I generally use said CFs. But that's not a reason to totally ban filament lamps since there are a few places where they are still superior. > > In addition to compact fluorescent lamps, you can get LED-based bulbs, > halogen lamps (which still are effectively incandescent, but a bit > better), and various gas-discharge lamps. > > > Whele I use compact fluorescent bulbs a lot, there are 4 places where > > I stick to the old filament lamps : > > > > 1) Over my lathe. There is significant 50Hz flicker from compact > > fluorescents in my experience, I don't want the possible hazard of > > thinking something is stopped when in fact it's rotating at a > > multiple of the mains frequency > > I don't think I've ever seen a CF that had a ballast that operated at > mains frequency. Usually, a switching supply that runs at many kHz. Actually, earlt ones (perhaps 20 years ago) had an iron-cored choke as the balanst and ran at mains frequency. I may even still have some of those somewhere... > Normal fluorescent bulbs, with a "magnetic" ballast instead of > an "electronic" ballast, though could produce your 50Hz flicker. CF > bulbs would need do be quite a bit bigger and heavier to have a 50/60Hz > ballast in them. However, there can still be mains frequency ripple on the output of the switching supply. Perhaps I am overcautious here, but I really don't want to put my hand onto a spinning milling cutter or similar... > > Between that, and the phosphor persistence of the bulb, I don't think > this could be a real problem. If it is, you could always just run a > fluorescent bulb off of a DC supply. :) Which is suppsoeldy bad for them. I can't remember the problem (it's something to do with uneven 'wear' on the electrodes), but I do recall that when DC mains were not uncommon there were special swtiches for fluorescent striplights that reversed the polarity of the supply on ever other 'on' operation. > > > 2) In my darkroom. CF's have a long afterglow when you turn them off, > > easily enough to fog film. I want a light source I can turn off > > instantly > > LED lights turn off much faster than Incandescent bulbs do. Plus, it's What about white LEDs (which IIRC have phosphors in the plastic package)? > easy to get/make one that produces red light. :) I am not talking about the safelight [1] but about the normal white light used for seeiong to set things up, etc. [1] LED safelights are well-known. And a sodium vapour lamp, sutiably filtered, can be used with some colour printing papers. Yes, I have one. > > > 3) In my copying stand, where I need a contimuous spectrum of light > > Halogen? There are fairly good spectrum flourescent bulbs available > these days, but I've not tried to look at them through a prism. To me, 'halogen' bulbs (assuming you mean tungsten-halogen, and not some kind of gas discharge lamp) are a subset of 'filament lamps'. And yes, they are suitable here > > > 4) In my SMPUS current limiter, for obvious electrical reasons. > > Halogen? Maybe a properly engineered RL circuit instead of some > cobbled-together light-bulb current limiter. :) I think a tungsten-halogen bulb would eb fine here too. The point about using a filament lamp for this application is the non-linear resistance chracteristic. When cold, it has a low resistance (and effectively no effect on the circuit), buit this reisstance rises to limit the current if the bulb warms up, e.g. on an overload. Lamps as current limiters (and even constant-current devices) are well-known... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 21:02:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 03:02:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 31, 8 11:41:15 am Message-ID: > It is probably possible to build a current limiter that provides > immediate visual feedback. I challenge you, or anyone for that matter, > to come up with such a design that is as cheap, easy, simple, and > foolproof as an incandescent bulb. (Well, not cheap once the ban hits, > which is the problem.) Actually, this reminds me of another application... the audio oscillator. As is well-known, it's very difficult to make an adjustable LC oscillator at audio frequencies. An RC oscillaotr is possible, but stabilising it (so you get a reasonably non-distorted sine wave output) is the problem. Now many yeats ago, a guy working for Prof Terman (you do know who I mean, right...) solved this problem. He used a Wien bridge circuit as the 'resonant element', in the feedback loop of a *3 amplifier. The gain of the latter was stabilised by a light bulb as a non-linera resistor with just about the right time constant. Anyway, I read somewhere (possibly in one of Bob Pease's columns) that somebody had tried to improve upon this circuit using a more modern approach, an FET to cotnrol the gain, a carefully-designed control loop, etc. The result was a an oscillator with a more distorted output than the simple light-ulb-stailised one... -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 31 15:13:41 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video game cartridges Message-ID: I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage video games. How many of you would be interested in getting together a pool to make new Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 31 15:34:35 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:34:35 -0400 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200805311634.35085.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 30 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 3) In my copying stand, where I need a contimuous spectrum of > > > light > > > > Halogen? There are fairly good spectrum flourescent bulbs > > available these days, but I've not tried to look at them through a > > prism. > > To me, 'halogen' bulbs (assuming you mean tungsten-halogen, and not > some kind of gas discharge lamp) are a subset of 'filament lamps'. > And yes, they are suitable here But they are generally not (AFAIK) covered by bans. The only bans I know of apply to standard edison-base type incandescent lamps. Halogen w/tungsten filament lamps aren't included. And, I don't think anyone is considering a ban on incandescent automotive headlamps, either, for example. > > > 4) In my SMPUS current limiter, for obvious electrical reasons. > > > > Halogen? Maybe a properly engineered RL circuit instead of some > > cobbled-together light-bulb current limiter. :) > > I think a tungsten-halogen bulb would eb fine here too. > > The point about using a filament lamp for this application is the > non-linear resistance chracteristic. When cold, it has a low > resistance (and effectively no effect on the circuit), buit this > reisstance rises to limit the current if the bulb warms up, e.g. on > an overload. I think you missed my ":)". Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 31 15:36:53 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video game cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <601034.32883.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Griffith wrote: > I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage > video games. How > many of you would be interested in getting together a pool > to make new > Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? I've made up many Atari 2600 cartridges, and I've never had a hard time finding used carts to recycle for the casing. There are enough Pac-Man, ET, and Space Invaders cartridges out there for decades of homemade carts. Besides, even if you had new cart cases made up, you'd still need the boards from used carts anyway. Unless, of course, someone makes those again too. Vectrex, on the other hand, is a different beast. Not a lot of Vectrex carts out there. Now, if you make up cases for those - I'll buy some - provided that someone sends me a Vectrex, that is... -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat May 31 15:37:25 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video game cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <861748.41180.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Griffith wrote: > I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage > video games. How > many of you would be interested in getting together a pool > to make new > Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? I've made up many Atari 2600 cartridges, and I've never had a hard time finding used carts to recycle for the casing. There are enough Pac-Man, ET, and Space Invaders cartridges out there for decades of homemade carts. Besides, even if you had new cart cases made up, you'd still need the boards from used carts anyway. Unless, of course, someone makes those again too. Vectrex, on the other hand, is a different beast. Not a lot of Vectrex carts out there. Now, if you make up cases for those - I'll buy some - provided that someone sends me a Vectrex, that is... -Ian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 31 15:43:30 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video game cartridges In-Reply-To: <601034.32883.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <601034.32883.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Griffith wrote: > > > I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage video games. > > How many of you would be interested in getting together a pool to make > > new Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? > > I've made up many Atari 2600 cartridges, and I've never had a hard time > finding used carts to recycle for the casing. There are enough Pac-Man, > ET, and Space Invaders cartridges out there for decades of homemade > carts. Besides, even if you had new cart cases made up, you'd still need > the boards from used carts anyway. Unless, of course, someone makes > those again too. Atariage.com sells various types of PCBs for the 2600, 5200, 8-bit, and Coleco > Vectrex, on the other hand, is a different beast. Not a lot of Vectrex > carts out there. Now, if you make up cases for those - I'll buy some - > provided that someone sends me a Vectrex, that is... The Vectrex consoles themselves aren't that hard to find. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 31 16:26:53 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:26:53 -0500 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from Message-ID: Tony, that would be Jim Williams, Linear Technology. Randy > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 03:02:37 +0100 > Subject: Re: Transformer repairs > > > It is probably possible to build a current limiter that provides > > immediate visual feedback. I challenge you, or anyone for that matter, > > to come up with such a design that is as cheap, easy, simple, and > > foolproof as an incandescent bulb. (Well, not cheap once the ban hits, > > which is the problem.) > > Actually, this reminds me of another application... the audio oscillator. > > As is well-known, it's very difficult to make an adjustable LC oscillator > at audio frequencies. An RC oscillaotr is possible, but stabilising it > (so you get a reasonably non-distorted sine wave output) is the problem. > Now many yeats ago, a guy working for Prof Terman (you do know who I > mean, right...) solved this problem. He used a Wien bridge circuit as the > 'resonant element', in the feedback loop of a *3 amplifier. The gain of > the latter was stabilised by a light bulb as a non-linera resistor with > just about the right time constant. > > Anyway, I read somewhere (possibly in one of Bob Pease's columns) that > somebody had tried to improve upon this circuit using a more modern > approach, an FET to cotnrol the gain, a carefully-designed control loop, > etc. The result was a an oscillator with a more distorted output than the > simple light-ulb-stailised one... > > -tony _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008 From steve at radiorobots.com Sat May 31 16:38:21 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:38:21 -0400 Subject: Carbon-filament incandescents In-Reply-To: <484194A0.6030505@mainecoon.com> References: <200805311700.m4VH0P0x074590@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48412EB8.10033.50EB37@cclist.sydex.com> <484194A0.6030505@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <4841C54D.30207@radiorobots.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> What I don't like about incandescents used as a load-limiter is the >> very low cold resistance. I'd much rather have a "soft" start--but >> then carbon-filament incandescents haven't been easy to find for the >> last 80 years or so. > > They're not all that hard to find. Rejuvenation has them in assorted > wattages: > > http://www.rejuvenation.com/fixshowMRB3/templates/selection.phtml > Visual indication notwithstanding, Keystone and GE "CL" current limiters are inexpensive and work well. http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/GE_INFRASTRUCTURE_SENSING/GE-Infrastructure-Sensing_Actives-and-Passives_8370011.pdf From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 31 19:43:16 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:43:16 -0400 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200805312043.16646.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 31 May 2008 11:30, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 30 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, > > > > but especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test > > > > throught a light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary > > > > catastrophic failures" on more than one occation. > > > > > > And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs > > > entirely. > > > > Indeed... > > I don't see what the problem is. There are much more efficient methods > of lighting, than the one that Edison worked a lot on over 100 years > ago. The problem is that there are applications for these bulbs that aren't primarily lighting, and we're not going to be able to get a hold of them. > In addition to compact fluorescent lamps, you can get LED-based bulbs, > halogen lamps (which still are effectively incandescent, but a bit > better), and various gas-discharge lamps. "Better" being a relative term. Those halogen bulbs have advantages and disadvantages both. And while CF bulbs are becoming somewhat common, LED, and gas-discharge lamps are both uncommon and expensive, and not similar in their characteristics (either electrical _or_ lighting) to incandescent bulbs. This is gonna cost, a bunch, and it won't work as well (in some cases) as what's in place now. Yes, we have CF bulbs around here. The one lamp that gets used most is one that took a lot of getting used to, because it's a different spectrum. In another case there's a fixture here that they don't work reliably in, and since we're renting it's not an option to change the fixture. In another case, it's *way* brighter than the incandescent bulb it replaced. And they're not dimmable. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 31 20:04:48 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:04:48 -0500 Subject: Come Work at Bell Labs! Message-ID: <51ea77730805311804p2f484f8ax68e70637697458ce@mail.gmail.com> Some great shots of old terminals and other mysteries of the Labs here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHBHEWyZ1Xw What are the terminals Greg Chesson is using around the 2:30 mark? From onymouse at garlic.com Sat May 31 21:23:37 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 19:23:37 -0700 Subject: OT: CFL Problems (was Re: Transformer repairs) In-Reply-To: <200805312043.16646.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200805312043.16646.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48420829.7080401@garlic.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 31 May 2008 11:30, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Friday 30 May 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> After working on a SMPSU (or any power supply for that matter, >>>>> but especially a switcher), I usually power it up to test >>>>> throught a light-bulb. [...] Has saved me from "secondary >>>>> catastrophic failures" on more than one occation. >>>> And I've heard people talk about banning incandescent bulbs >>>> entirely. >>> Indeed... >> I don't see what the problem is. There are much more efficient methods >> of lighting, than the one that Edison worked a lot on over 100 years >> ago. Incandescents make great dummy loads for transmitters. CFL's decidedly do not. etc... Another problem with CFL's is that they are very risky in explosive and combustible atmospheres than incandescents. There are sealed light fixtures for incandescents but they are not approved for use with CFL's. Some CFL's, perhaps all, will not fit in the incandescent fixtures. CFL's may also be too hot for such sealed fixtures. And another problem is that CFL's cannot tolerate shock & vibration anywhere near to the degree that incandescents can. There are fluorescents specifially designed for vibration but they are expensive as hell and they are not CFL's. In a recent 1.0 quake on an unknown fault, all the CFL's broke in an office building less than 1/2 mile from the fault. And yet another problem is that CFL's cannot tolerate the high temperature environments that incandescents can. There are fluorescents specifically designed for this, too, but they also are very expensive. Oh, I think this might be a problem too: The color and color temperature of CFL's is not consistent even within lots and there is frequently UV leakage, especially among the imports (yeah, like Chinese imports). For some imaging apps, this is intolerable. Requires the lamps be replaced with very expensive lighting systems like gas discharge lighting. Or requires time-wasting constant color adjustments, etc, adn. Most incandescents used in imaging have known colors and color temperatures and any changes over the bulb's lifetime are predictable. Ever put a CFL on a microscope, replacing the halogen lamp? Doesn't work very well. It's impossible to get a good parallel light onto the work. This is for inline lighting, with the lighting done through the optical path, not the external illuminators. == jd From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 31 21:26:07 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 22:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200805311431.00163.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200805311431.00163.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200806010231.WAA08372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If you're worried about a ban on incandescent bulbs for the purpose > of current-limiting device, then stockpile a bunch of them for your > own use. That's exactly what I'm going to do. Doesn't make the ban any saner. > I think that the power savings is worth the annoyances of a ban. What power savings? During the heating season, there is no savings for me. None. This is because I, like much of Quebec, heat with electricity, so any power saved by light bulbs will just get drawn by baseboard heaters instead. (I think the theory behind Hydro-Quebec's pushing of CF is to be able to sell the saved power to the USA at substantially higher rates than the (controlled) domestic rate. But if so, they either haven't thought about electric heat, they are trusting that enough people heat other ways, or they are looking for savings during the summer.) >> ...none of which function, electrically, like incandescent bulbs. > Halogen bulbs do. Do they? I thought they were high-current low-voltage devices, used with step-down transformers when run off mains power. Am I confusing them with something else? >> (Well, not cheap once the ban hits, which is the problem.) > A "ban" such as those proposed is only a ban on sales of new bulbs, > not on *using* them... ...yet. That aside, even stockpiling works only until the stocks run out. It amounts to trusting that the ban will be realized as boneheaded, and rescinded, before the stockpile runs out. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 31 21:33:09 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 22:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <48412EB8.10033.50EB37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200805311700.m4VH0P0x074590@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48412EB8.10033.50EB37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200806010238.WAA08420@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> It is probably possible to build a current limiter that provides >> immediate visual feedback. I challenge you, or anyone for that >> matter, to come up with such a design that is as cheap, easy, >> simple, and foolproof as an incandescent bulb. > How's this? Grab a glass jar, fill with water and a salt of your > choice, say, bicarbonate of soda, drop two electrodes into it > (stainless steel or carbon is good; aluminum will tend to polarize > after awhile and form a leaky rectifier). Apply current and watch > for bubbles and/or steam. Vary resistance by varying the distance > between electrodes. Ingenious. However, it tends to produce an explosive atmosphere. It also is substantially slower to produce visual feedback, and requires looking fairly directly at it to see the feedback (which is true of incandescents only for the low end of the current range). > What I don't like about incandescents used as a load-limiter is the > very low cold resistance. I'd much rather have a "soft" start--but > then carbon-filament incandescents haven't been easy to find for the > last 80 years or so. If you don't like the cold inrush, maybe you should get that 144 ohm 100 watt resistor I mentioned...and parallel it with some kind of voltmeter, maybe as simple as a diode bridge, resistor and meter movement. Seems to me that, at least for power supply applications, a cold inrush is actually a good thing, since it gets the smoothing caps up to voltage faster - and doesn't last long. der Mouse From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 31 22:09:30 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:09:30 -0400 Subject: OS/2 problems Message-ID: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it today on my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past that is good or not. Also I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk could not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 expect ESDI drives? TZ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 31 22:38:06 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:38:06 -0700 Subject: OS/2 problems In-Reply-To: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> References: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: At 11:09 PM -0400 5/31/08, Teo Zenios wrote: >Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it >today on my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past >that is good or not. > >Also I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk >could not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 >expect ESDI drives? More likely MFM or IDE, I've never run 1.1EE, however, I ran 1.3 on an IDE drive. Which is older, OS/2 1.1EE or the PS/2 65SX? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 31 22:39:26 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:39:26 -0400 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484219EE.7040805@neurotica.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, this reminds me of another application... the audio oscillator. > > As is well-known, it's very difficult to make an adjustable LC oscillator > at audio frequencies. An RC oscillaotr is possible, but stabilising it > (so you get a reasonably non-distorted sine wave output) is the problem. > Now many yeats ago, a guy working for Prof Terman (you do know who I > mean, right...) solved this problem. He used a Wien bridge circuit as the > 'resonant element', in the feedback loop of a *3 amplifier. The gain of > the latter was stabilised by a light bulb as a non-linera resistor with > just about the right time constant. > > Anyway, I read somewhere (possibly in one of Bob Pease's columns) that > somebody had tried to improve upon this circuit using a more modern > approach, an FET to cotnrol the gain, a carefully-designed control loop, > etc. The result was a an oscillator with a more distorted output than the > simple light-ulb-stailised one... This particular subject is near and dear to my heart. The incandescent light bulb linearization technique is attributed to Bill Hewlett, and was presented in his Master's thesis at Stanford University in 1938. The design was commercialized into Hewlett-Packard's first product, the model 200A audio oscillator, in 1939. (was Hewlett studying under Terman at the time?) Later, well-known analog electronics god Jim Williams (staff scientist at Linear Technology) developed a modernized equivalent of that circuit which actually does manage to outperform it by a considerable degree. It uses several very high-tech op-amps, along with an analog optoisolator (an LED optically coupled to a CdS photocell), in a fairly elaborate circuit. It is far, far more complex than Hewlett's original oscillator, but it does work amazingly well. Williams presents this circuit (and many pages of very interesting reading, as he describes the process by which he arrived at his final result...ideas, testing, failures, successes, optimization, etc) in the absolutely fantastic book entitled "Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science, and Personalities". I strongly recommend that book. Bob Pease may have done something like this, but I suspect you're thinking of Jim Williams' work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 31 22:55:59 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:55:59 -0400 Subject: OS/2 problems References: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <004601c8c39b$69c9a8f0$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: OS/2 problems > At 11:09 PM -0400 5/31/08, Teo Zenios wrote: >>Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it today on >>my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past that is good or >>not. >> >>Also I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk could >>not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 expect ESDI >>drives? > > More likely MFM or IDE, I've never run 1.1EE, however, I ran 1.3 on an IDE > drive. Which is older, OS/2 1.1EE or the PS/2 65SX? > 1.1EE is a year or two older then the 65SX. Just seems odd DOS FDISK had no issues finding and formatting the drive but 1.1EE kept giving me errors. From elazzerini at interfree.it Fri May 30 16:08:24 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 23:08:24 +0200 Subject: Big Board I: micro cornucopia & user disk Message-ID: <4816E7A801E545F1@averell.mail.tiscali.sys> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Hi at all, i'm looking for all articles and software for the big board I. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Big_Board) There was a magazine called Micro Cornucopia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Cornucopia) Some issues are scannered here below: http://www.aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/BooksByManufacturerList.asp?lngManufact urerId=980&strManufacturerDescription=Micro+Cornucopia The issues i'm looking for are from the 1st to the 22th. There was also an DRI Archive of the Big Board user disk. I'm looking from the #1 to the #20. They contain sw utilities bios lists and all about this OLD SBC. I thanks to all would be help to rebuild all info around this board. Enrico - Pisa - Italy From alfred.galea at onvol.net Fri May 30 17:00:35 2008 From: alfred.galea at onvol.net (Alfred Galea) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 00:00:35 +0200 Subject: Available: Sharp ZQ-5200 Organizer Message-ID: <000901c8c2a0$96e70ea0$2aced9d5@NP00064F051D3C> Hello Dave, I think it's a long shot, but do you still have the Sharp zq 5200? More specifically, I am looking for the owner's/operations manual for it and have had no luck with surfing, not even on the Sharp Electronics site. Maybe you could point me towards a more fruitful source if it is no longer with you. Kindest regards from sunny Malta Alfred From derschjo at msu.edu Fri May 30 23:52:01 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:52:01 -0700 Subject: PET 2001-8 progress... In-Reply-To: <579D0CE52D0@dunfield.com> References: <483E3A35.3030501@msu.edu> <579D0CE52D0@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4840D971.1030807@msu.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Got out my ancient oscilloscope and did a bit of probing and got a >> little more info: >> >> On power up, the CPU reset line is held low for ~1 sec, then goes high. >> At this point if I look at the address/data lines, I can see a very >> brief burst of activity and then nothing at all (it's during this >> activity that a few characters on screen change). After this activity, >> all address lines are high. IRQ & NMI lines are high. CPU is being >> clocked throughout all of this, clock rate seems to be correct. >> > > Assuming that it is clocked and has been reset correctly, there are > generally only two reasons that a CPU stops running (fetching opcodes): > > 1) It is being held in a hardware wait state. > > Check the state of the RDY line on the 6502 and if it > is asserted, backtrace through the circuit to find out why. > RDY is being held high, which I believe is correct (my understanding from reading 6502 specs indicates this is held low to halt the CPU...) > 2) It executes an instruction which causes it to stop > > Usually a HALT instructionor of some sort or other, there are sometimes > undocumented opcodes which cause this behaviour as well - A bit of > net searching should turn up details on the undocumented opcodes. > > There are generally two reasons why a processor would execute an opcode > to shut itself off: > > 1) On purpose > > Usually while waiting for an interrupt - given that you PET hasn't > even cleared it's screen, I doubt this is the case. > > 2) By executing "random" code > > Can be caused by: > - Bad ROM - actual code gets corrupted > - Bad RAM - stack failure results in "return" to random address > - Bad bus buffers - hardware failure resulting in corruption in the > address or data buses. > - Bad decode logic - no device or multiple memory devices being > selected when only one should be. > > I've seen a least two 2001's with bad ROM chips. And a number of PETs > with bad RAM - I'd suspect one of these two. > On a whim, I ran the machine without any of the ROMs installed and I get identical behavior to what I was already seeing (brief CPU activity, then nothing). I suspect the CPU is just reading garbage and something's broken between the CPU & RAM. The CPU's probably halting on a bogus instruction... I'm going to do some investigation in that area. Thanks for the suggestions... Josh > If you have a storage scope, you should be able to trigger on the > SYNC signal at the CPU and catch the last few opcode fetches - walking > the data and address bus signals and writing them down will reveal > the last opcode executed and the address from which it was executed. > > Alas, I don't. My 'scope's an ancient Tektronix 561A. Works great, but it's pretty simple. (And maybe a bit underpowered for this particular task...) > Look at the opcode that was executed to see what exactly caused the > CPU to stop. > > Try this a couple of times and see if the CPU is always stopping in > the same place. Scope the select lines and note *which* ROM was > selected for the last opcode fetch, or in the case of a "wild" access, > which ROM was selected last before it stopped. > > If the address where that opcode was fetched in within the ROM, get > the PET rom binaries and see if it's "supposed" to be there - a bit > of disassembly around that address should tell you if the code is > real code, or some random bit of data that the processor wandered > off into. If you can read the PET ROMs (I made an adapter to stuff > them into my homebuild EPROM programmer) you can compare against the > binaries to check the entire ROM content - The PET roms are not standard > pinouts - but you can make an adapter to put a normal ROM in the > socket - IIRC I needed a TTL chip to provide an extra select - I've > got photos on my site of a PET that I had to repair this way. > > If the address is NOT within the ROM, trigger on the ROM select and > see what the last opcode executed from ROM was - if it was RTS or > RTI I would strongly suspect a RAM problem. It might also be a jump > indirect (same suspicion). As above, look at the code contained at > this address and see it if "makes sense" as a valid place to be > executing. > > > With a decent scope you can get several fetches on the screen, and > therefore determine the opcode/address for the last few instructions > executed - If you can't get any of that to make sense, try single- > shot trigger and capture the first few instructons executed - see if > they make sense and match the ROM. > > With a bit of poking around you should be able to determine what the > processor is doing at the time it went insane - hopefully at some point > the "ah-ha" light will go on. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > From peter.lofstedt at bahnhof.se Sat May 31 10:32:36 2008 From: peter.lofstedt at bahnhof.se (Peter) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:32:36 +0200 Subject: Synertek KTM-3/80 -- 2 questions Message-ID: <000001c8c333$8dbecfa0$0300a8c0@HemPC> Hello I have an KTM-3 with power module, thermo printer and floppy drive. How can I come in touch with people that are interested in this classic hardware? Kind Regards Peter Lofstedt Home +46 243 60655 Cell +46 70 6368475 Peter.lofstedt at ericsson.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 15:28:16 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: video game cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <913257.48853.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> how would you intend to do this? You'll need someone to machine a die, and subsequently someone to do the injection molding. It's not rocket science (although I've never done it). But I'm not volunteering... Dies are very expensive by the way. --- David Griffith wrote: > > I know that some of you here have an interest in > vintage video games. How > many of you would be interested in getting together > a pool to make new > Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people > normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From derschjo at msu.edu Sat May 31 16:01:46 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:01:46 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) Message-ID: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic computing and/or gaming needs? I've been looking to shave a bit of space off my workbench and just use a single SVGA monitor instead of that and an old composite monitor. I picked up one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XXZQWQ and while it works great for certain systems (the C64 and NES, for example) it gets really confused by the composite signal coming from other systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them. Anyone have any recommendations? Thanks, Josh From elazzerini at interfree.it Sat May 31 16:07:53 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:07:53 +0200 Subject: Big Board I: micro cornucopia & user disk Message-ID: <4818CE87016296C3@jack.mail.tiscali.sys> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Hi at all, i'm looking for all articles and software for the big board I. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Big_Board) There was a magazine called Micro Cornucopia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Cornucopia) Some issues are scannered here below: http://www.aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/BooksByManufacturerList.asp?lngManufact urerId=980&strManufacturerDescription=Micro+Cornucopia The issues i'm looking for are from the 1st to the 22th. There was also an DRI Archive of the Big Board user disk. I'm looking from the #1 to the #20. They contain sw utilities bios lists and all about this OLD SBC. I thanks to all would be help to rebuild all info around this board. Enrico - Pisa - Italy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 31 21:24:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 03:24:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <484219EE.7040805@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 31, 8 11:39:26 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, this reminds me of another application... the audio oscillator. > > > > As is well-known, it's very difficult to make an adjustable LC oscillator > > at audio frequencies. An RC oscillaotr is possible, but stabilising it > > (so you get a reasonably non-distorted sine wave output) is the problem. > > Now many yeats ago, a guy working for Prof Terman (you do know who I > > mean, right...) solved this problem. He used a Wien bridge circuit as the > > 'resonant element', in the feedback loop of a *3 amplifier. The gain of > > the latter was stabilised by a light bulb as a non-linera resistor with > > just about the right time constant. > > > > Anyway, I read somewhere (possibly in one of Bob Pease's columns) that > > somebody had tried to improve upon this circuit using a more modern > > approach, an FET to cotnrol the gain, a carefully-designed control loop, > > etc. The result was a an oscillator with a more distorted output than the > > simple light-ulb-stailised one... > > This particular subject is near and dear to my heart. > > The incandescent light bulb linearization technique is attributed to > Bill Hewlett, and was presented in his Master's thesis at Stanford That's why I said 'you do know who I mean'. Of course it was William Hewlett. > University in 1938. The design was commercialized into > Hewlett-Packard's first product, the model 200A audio oscillator, in > 1939. (was Hewlett studying under Terman at the time?) I believe he was. I think there;s a famous paper with both names (and others) on that describes the technique. Incidentally, Prof Termna's books, particularly 'Measurements in Radio Engineering' are well worth tracking down and reading. I wish I'd had a copy to throw at an idiot physics teacher at school... (I have it now). OK, I'd better explain that last remark. When I was at school, we were asked, for homework, to describe a method of measuring a capacitor. Now, there was a totally useless method taught for this, involving connecting the capactior to a virating reed swtich (energised at a known frequency), in one position the capactiro is charaged from a known voltage, in the other, it is discharged through a milliameter. The idea is that from the current flow, you can work out how much charge is transfered per cycle, then since you know the voltage, you can work out the capacitance. Now, this method makes the dubious assumption that the capacitor is fully charged and discharged each time, and that the frequency, charging voltage, and milliamter caliration are all known accurately. Of course I didn't describe that method. I picked one of the many AC bridge circuits, and descried that. The teacher objected, saying that it was a compariston and not a measurement. Now, I can't think of _any_ measurement (in the scientific context) that doesn't involve compariston to a standard. And there is no requirement for that standard to be of a different type to the quantity you're measuring (in fact in many cases it's better to measure something agaisnt a standard of the same type). But anyway... Prof Terman's book regards bridges as measuring circuits.... And any (UK school) physics teacher who thinks he knows mere about electrical measurements that Prof Terman is almost certainly deluded. > > Later, well-known analog electronics god Jim Williams (staff > scientist at Linear Technology) developed a modernized equivalent of > that circuit which actually does manage to outperform it by a > considerable degree. It uses several very high-tech op-amps, along with > an analog optoisolator (an LED optically coupled to a CdS photocell), in > a fairly elaborate circuit. It is far, far more complex than Hewlett's > original oscillator, but it does work amazingly well. Taht is proably the thing I was thinking of. I certainly remember a comment that at least one 'improved' circuit, although more complex than the light bulb, gave an inferior performance. But equally, I can believe there is one that does better. > Williams presents this circuit (and many pages of very interesting > reading, as he describes the process by which he arrived at his final > result...ideas, testing, failures, successes, optimization, etc) in the > absolutely fantastic book entitled "Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science, > and Personalities". I strongly recommend that book. Thanks. I will certainly check it out. I've never heard of said book before. > > Bob Pease may have done something like this, but I suspect you're > thinking of Jim Williams' work. Almost certainly. Maybe Bob refered to it, maybe I am just getting confused (the latter is very likely...) -tony