From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 1 00:21:06 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:21:06 -0500 Subject: Modem to Modem without a line simulator? In-Reply-To: <561559.8867.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <561559.8867.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801010121.06817.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 31 December 2007 15:13, Tom Watson wrote: > If you want to make two "500" sets talk to each other, a nice 6 Volt > battery works quite well placed in series with the two sets. It won't make > them ring, but you CAN talk. Use a lantern battery (or 4 D cells) and > unless you are making DTMF (touch-tone) on a polarity sensitive set (older > 2500 sets) polarity makes little difference. That's some of the sort of thing I used to do when I was a kid... Worked well, except I got into trouble one time trying to go across the street with that setup, the wire wasn't long enough, and the splice in the middle didn't hold up real well. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 02:57:39 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 03:57:39 -0500 Subject: Wanted: ultra-rare Commodore 64 stuff Message-ID: Yeah, I've tried the commodore forums, for sale, craigslist, etc. no luck I thought I'd try my luck here, no harm I think. I'm looking for something very rare on the commodore 64 (c64 or 64c) line of computers, it was called "drive mirror" for the 1541 disk drives it was basically an LCD display built into the drive that showed the track and sector values. it also had a half-track indicator and a "density" indicator as well. I read a magazine article (or online) once that showed how to do the track and sector displays, but never had any info about the more interesting parts - the half-track and the density display. if anyone has one or knows how they worked, or how to make one, please let me know. I'm also looking for a software copy of "Trackmimic" it was part of a hardware copier for the systems. I can make the cables myself (learned how a long time ago), but lost the software somehow. I'm also looking for a software program called "Di-Sector" specifically version 4 of that program. there are a LOT of fakes out there that claim to be version 4, but they're all spyware or trojans. which is sad. I've seen the "real" thing back in the day, so I know it's out there, or was. Any of this, for sale, trade, or just to give to a good home, or to put my out of my misery would help! greatly appreciated Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Discover new ways to stay in touch with Windows Live! Visit the City @ Live today! http://getyourliveid.ca/?icid=LIVEIDENCA006 From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 02:59:26 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 03:59:26 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Vax "sol" or "saul" Message-ID: I'm not sure how the name was spelled, so I put both here. basically it was a vax in a notebook type arrangement. I once located one in London ontario, but I've lost contact with the person who had it :( so if anyone has one, I've been looking for a very long time, and it'd be appreciated. thanks! Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Read what Santa`s been up to! For all the latest, visit asksantaclaus.spaces.live.com! http://asksantaclaus.spaces.live.com/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 03:02:54 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 04:02:54 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 Message-ID: Yes, you read that correctly. I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which contains none other than OS/2 operating system. Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. One other person who's checked the directory listing has said it is authentic. I'm not sure what to do with it, and I believe IBM made OS/2 open source, so technically it should be "free" of it's chains maybe someone can turn it into something useful, or just run it and have the most unique PDP on the planet, I don't know... whatever :) anyhow, it's a really weird bit of computing history, and I'd hate for it to be lost. it should be in a museum :) Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Use fowl language with Chicktionary. Click here to start playing! http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 1 03:15:02 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 01:15:02 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:02 AM -0500 1/1/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! >I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. This sounds bizarre. How about making a tape image available? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 03:23:36 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 04:23:36 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually that sounds like a much better idea, then everyone can get it ;) so, if someone wants to "remind" me how to do this, I'd be glad to. it's been eons since I worked on the PDP-11 systems I am assuming I could also use "dump" from my vaxstation (also has a tk-50) to get it? if someone wants to prod me a bit, I'll do an image and post it somewhere everyone can download it Dan. > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 01:15:02 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > At 4:02 AM -0500 1/1/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > >I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. > > This sounds bizarre. How about making a tape image available? > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Discover new ways to stay in touch with Windows Live! Visit the City @ Live today! http://getyourliveid.ca/?icid=LIVEIDENCA006 From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 1 03:37:44 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 03:37:44 -0600 Subject: Wanted: ultra-rare Commodore 64 stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477A09E8.1060704@jbrain.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Yeah, I've tried the commodore forums, for sale, craigslist, etc. no luck > > I thought I'd try my luck here, no harm I think. > > I'm looking for something very rare on the commodore 64 (c64 or 64c) line of computers, > > it was called "drive mirror" for the 1541 disk drives > > it was basically an LCD display built into the drive that showed the track and sector values. > it also had a half-track indicator and a "density" indicator as well. > > I read a magazine article (or online) once that showed how to do the track and sector displays, but never had any info about the more interesting parts - the half-track and the density display. > PORTB of the 6522 (the one servicing the drive mech, @ 0x1c00-0x1c0e) PORTB:1-0 shows half track: BIT 0 = HALF TRACK STATUS PORTB:6:5 shows density: 0-3 density I'm assuming a T&S display would have to intercept some RAM locations, as the electronics do not have any idea of the T&S. address 0x22 holds track, while 0x4d holds next sector to read (0x4c holds last sector read). I'm assuming one would just wire up a 573 to each address, and grab the data, converting it to decimal. But, that assumes things use the std DOS. IN a custom DOS, all bets would be off. 0x80 also states it is TRACK, with 0x81 being sector. These may be the bytes Drive Mirror was looking at, since they are so close together, it would be relatively easy to decode them. I've got some Atmel AVR code here that could possibly be persuaded to "snoop" on the drive line and watch all the IEC commands, optionally outputting them to an LCD. I remember the ad for Drive Mirror, but I never have seen one. Jim From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jan 1 03:58:21 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 01:58:21 -0800 Subject: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Some, if not most, ST506/ST412 interface drives output a signal on the > data cable when that drive is selected. The idea was you could plug > the > data cables into the controller in any order, and the controller could > determine which data connector to use, which receivers to enable, etc. That is good information I had not previously been aware of, and certainly does explain some behaviors I have seen in ST412 disk systems, which I had considered "peculiar". ok bear From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jan 1 05:18:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:18:05 +0000 Subject: 1541 DriveMirror (was Re: Wanted: ultra-rare Commodore 64 stuff) In-Reply-To: <477A09E8.1060704@jbrain.com> References: <477A09E8.1060704@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080101111805.GA28235@usap.gov> On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 03:37:44AM -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >I'm looking for something very rare on the commodore 64 (c64 or 64c) line > >of computers, > > > >it was called "drive mirror" for the 1541 disk drives > > > >it was basically an LCD display built into the drive that showed the track > >and sector values. LCD? I remember an LED track-only display. > >I read a magazine article (or online) once that showed how to do the track > >and sector displays... Any recollection where? > I'm assuming a T&S display would have to intercept some RAM locations, > as the electronics do not have any idea of the T&S. address 0x22 holds > track, while 0x4d holds next sector to read (0x4c holds last sector > read). I'm assuming one would just wire up a 573 to each address, and > grab the data, converting it to decimal. . . . > 0x80 also states it is TRACK, with 0x81 being sector. These may be the > bytes Drive Mirror was looking at, since they are so close together, it > would be relatively easy to decode them. Sure... wouldn't even take a '688 or other large address decoder. An 8-input NAND or two with an additional gate for 0x80 vs 0x81 for the latch input. Hex to 2-digit BCD might be a bit hairy in TTL, though. Did the Drive Mirror use PALs/GALs or straight TTL? > I've got some Atmel AVR code here that could possibly be persuaded to > "snoop" on the drive line and watch all the IEC commands, optionally > outputting them to an LCD. > > I remember the ad for Drive Mirror, but I never have seen one. Any idea how it mounted? Did you install flea clips? Solder on wires? Plug into the CPU socket? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 1-Jan-2008 at 11:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -19.1 F (-28.4 C) Windchill -35.8 F (-37.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.9 kts Grid 28 Barometer 686.2 mb (10395 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 08:24:54 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:24:54 -0500 Subject: Vector and ST506 (was ST506 and-or ST412 hard drives Message-ID: <000c01c84c82$14146700$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:07:38 -0500 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > > The different signal is called a "constant index" signal. Apparently, it > is similar to an /INDEX signal from a floppy drive interface but the > signal tells the HD controller everytime sector 0 passes around. The HD > controller requires it for setting up the PLL. > > Here is an excerpt on the subject from the VG engineer: Well, the ST506 knows nothing from sectors--it's about as "bare" and interface as they come. I wonder if by "constant index" it's meant that there's always an INDEX/ signal present; not just when the drive is selected. At least that would make sense from this: > All hard drives working with a Vector FD/HD must have constant > index. There is a phase locked loop that is controlled by U20 which > is CMOS 4040 chip and unless you have constant index the PLL never... Maybe? What happens if the drive is jumpereed so as to be permanently selected? Cheers, Chuck -----REPLY----- Hi Chuck, Yes you are correct. I spoke with the VG engineer to get more details on "constant index" and you described it exactly. Apparently there is a cut and jumper modification which can be made to the ST506 circuit board to bring the /INDEX signal to the interface constantly even when the drive is not selected. Once I get a ST506 drive I will find and make the modification. Assuming I can get the ST506 to work, I will try making modifications to ST225's or other more common hard drives. I'd like to get the standard case working to establish if my VEDMCS is working properly before adding in other variables of different drives etc. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 10:55:31 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 08:55:31 -0800 Subject: Vector and ST506 (was ST506 and-or ST412 hard drives In-Reply-To: <000c01c84c82$14146700$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000c01c84c82$14146700$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > ---snip--- > > Hi Chuck, > > Yes you are correct. I spoke with the VG engineer to get more details on > "constant index" and you described it exactly. > > Apparently there is a cut and jumper modification which can be made to the > ST506 circuit board to bring the /INDEX signal to the interface constantly > even when the drive is not selected. > > Once I get a ST506 drive I will find and make the modification. Assuming I > can get the ST506 to work, I will try making modifications to ST225's or > other more common hard drives. > > I'd like to get the standard case working to establish if my VEDMCS is > working properly before adding in other variables of different drives etc. > > Hi Andrew When you find your drive, it should be easy to make the mod. Follow the signal back from the pin. There should be a line driver there. Usually something like a 74S38 or a 7545x. These usually have two inputs. Using a scope or a logic probe, you'll see one input with the index and the other will be static. The static one is the one to tie high to get a constant Index. The easiest way is to cut the IC lead near the board and lift it away a little. You can then put a pullup resistor on this lead. I like doing this more than cutting the circuit board. If restoring, one can replace the IC or just bend the lead back solder it back. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 11:14:34 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:14:34 -0800 Subject: Vector and ST506 (was ST506 and-or ST412 hard drives In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c84c82$14146700$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: Hi Andrew I forgot to mention. The ST506 doesn't have an auto park. This means that shipping can be a problem. The drive needs to be parked before it canbe safely shipped. Failure to park it can damage the early tracks that you'll need to get it working on your system. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 1 12:02:58 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:02:58 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:23 AM -0500 1/1/08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >Actually that sounds like a much better idea, then everyone can get it ;) > >so, if someone wants to "remind" me how to do this, I'd be glad to. >it's been eons since I worked on the PDP-11 systems > >I am assuming I could also use "dump" from my vaxstation (also has a >tk-50) to get it? >if someone wants to prod me a bit, I'll do an image and post it >somewhere everyone can download it I take is the "dump" comment means the VAX is running Unix? My preferred method for imaging TK50's is to use VMSTPC under VMS, or TPC under RSX-11. My second choice would be to create a Virtual tape under RSX-11M+, but most people wouldn't be able to access those. I honestly have no idea how to best do a tape under Unix, as I always use VMS. I believe there are a couple tools available at the SIMH site for doing this on Unix, the standard Unix tools won't work (I'm not sure what would happen if you tried to use 'dd' under Unix, I do use 'dd' for PDP-11 SCSI HD's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 1 13:00:29 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:00:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801011903.OAA00622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I honestly have no idea how to best do a tape under Unix, as I always > use VMS. I believe there are a couple tools available at the SIMH > site for doing this on Unix, the standard Unix tools won't work (I'm > not sure what would happen if you tried to use 'dd' under Unix, I do > use 'dd' for PDP-11 SCSI HD's. dd works on tapes, but unless the tape can be recreated from the byte stream, it's not what you want. I'd suggest copytape, myself. It's a way of encapsulating streams of records into streams of bytes, and a program to read tapes and write bytestreams and vice versa. There's a version of it up for anonymous ftp from ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca (in /mouseware/local-src/copytape/); I don't know what other versions may be kicking around.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 1 13:14:55 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:14:55 -0800 Subject: Vector and ST506 (was ST506 and-or ST412 hard drives In-Reply-To: <200801011800.m01I08n1003293@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801011800.m01I08n1003293@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477A20AF.398.19D2DBB9@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:24:54 -0500 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Yes you are correct. I spoke with the VG engineer to get more details on > "constant index" and you described it exactly. > > Apparently there is a cut and jumper modification which can be made to the > ST506 circuit board to bring the /INDEX signal to the interface constantly > even when the drive is not selected. I grabbed my ST506 off the shelf--it looks to be a very simple change. The control outputs are driven by 7438s and the cut and jumper on IC 6D looks to be easy to do. If you were loathe to modify the PCB on the 506, the index signal is also available on TP4 FWIW, there's a schematic of the ST506 on Bitsavers also. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 1 13:48:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:48:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vector and ST506 (was ST506 and-or ST412 hard drives In-Reply-To: <000c01c84c82$14146700$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> from "Andrew Lynch" at Jan 1, 8 09:24:54 am Message-ID: > Apparently there is a cut and jumper modification which can be made to the > ST506 circuit board to bring the /INDEX signal to the interface constantly > even when the drive is not selected. > > Once I get a ST506 drive I will find and make the modification. Assuming I > can get the ST506 to work, I will try making modifications to ST225's or > other more common hard drives. It would eb useful to find out the modifaction (to either an ST506 or ST412) anyway. One of us with the approriate schematics (I am pretty sure I have both...) can then work out what's going on, what signal is tapped off 9and where), and what pin it's brought out to. My _guess_, and it is just a guess, is that the index siganl is tapped off immediately before the output driver (which normally only feeds the index signal onto the control cable (34 pin) when the drive is enabled), and this siganal is wired to one of the many unused pins on the data (20 pin) connector. That way the controller can always seel the index signal of all the drives in the machine -tony From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 1 14:24:26 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:24:26 -0600 Subject: 1541 DriveMirror (was Re: Wanted: ultra-rare Commodore 64 stuff) In-Reply-To: <20080101111805.GA28235@usap.gov> References: <477A09E8.1060704@jbrain.com> <20080101111805.GA28235@usap.gov> Message-ID: <477AA17A.6040602@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Any idea how it mounted? Did you install flea clips? Solder on wires? > Plug into the CPU socket? > I think plugging into the CPU socket (and possibly the 6522 socket would be the norm. ProfessionalDOS (a parallel speeder I own) does the same thing. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 1 15:02:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:02:36 -0700 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477AAA6C.9070708@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Actually that sounds like a much better idea, then everyone can get it ;) > > so, if someone wants to "remind" me how to do this, I'd be glad to. > it's been eons since I worked on the PDP-11 systems > > I am assuming I could also use "dump" from my vaxstation (also has a tk-50) to get it? > if someone wants to prod me a bit, I'll do an image and post it somewhere everyone can download it How about giving the people who made simh a copy as a 'historical archive'. > Dan. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 1 16:36:46 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:36:46 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 1, 2008 3:02 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Yes, you read that correctly. > > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which contains none other than > OS/2 operating system. Any idea how this came to be? Weren't DEC and IBM fierce competitors? Hard to believe there would have been collaboration on such a project. And what would be the point? Wasn't OS/2 a graphical system from the start? Can you post a pic of the tape label and the directory listing you extracted? As everyone else has said, whatever it is, it should be archived before it becomes unreadable! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 16:51:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:51:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Jason T wrote: > Any idea how this came to be? Weren't DEC and IBM fierce competitors? OS/2 was written at MICROS~1 by Gordon Letwin. LATER IBM took over rights. Did it have anything to do with Dave Cutler moving from DEC to MICROS~1 to combine OS/2 and some DEC stuff to create NT? > Hard to believe there would have been collaboration on such a > project. > And what would be the point? world domination > Wasn't OS/2 a graphical system from the start? NO. It was written to replace MS-DOS. (But it wanted a meg of RAM) IFF you wanted GUI, then you ran "Windows for OS/2" on OS/2. That was later renamed "Presentation Manager" as part of the MICROS~1 effort to make sure that no product had a name that would give you a clue what it was. (Why is the compiler collection called "Visual Studio"? Why is the Virus Transfer Protocol named "Outlook"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 1 17:33:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:33:47 -0500 Subject: 1541 DriveMirror (was Re: Wanted: ultra-rare Commodore 64 stuff) In-Reply-To: <477AA17A.6040602@jbrain.com> References: <20080101111805.GA28235@usap.gov> <477AA17A.6040602@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200801011833.47702.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 01 January 2008 15:24, Jim Brain wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Any idea how it mounted? Did you install flea clips? Solder on wires? > > Plug into the CPU socket? > > I think plugging into the CPU socket (and possibly the 6522 socket would > be the norm. ProfessionalDOS (a parallel speeder I own) does the same > thing. Assuming that stuff was even socketed, of course, as there was _no_ consistency with regard to that in all the c= stuff I worked on. And we sold a lot of sockets to people, that got put in as a part of the troubleshooting process. The one speedup I installed was a replacement ROM, that went in by way of an adapter (more pins). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From madodel at ptdprolog.net Tue Jan 1 17:59:53 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:59:53 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Jason T wrote: >> Any idea how this came to be? Weren't DEC and IBM fierce competitors? > > OS/2 was written at MICROS~1 by Gordon Letwin. > LATER IBM took over rights. > > Did it have anything to do with Dave Cutler moving from DEC to MICROS~1 to > combine OS/2 and some DEC stuff to create NT? > OS/2 1.0 through 1.2 was written as a collaborative effort between IBM and Microsoft. Each had specific assignments and it was the microsoft parts that tended to produce the most headaches. As of OS/2 1.3 IBM took over all OS/2 code and all microsoft code was pretty much re-written by the 2.0 release. See http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0797H/vnewsf.htm#WarpGuru for a history of OS/2 written by someone who was there from the beginning. >> Hard to believe there would have been collaboration on such a >> project. >> And what would be the point? > world domination As far as I know the only released platforms for OS/2 were the x86 and the dead at birth OS/2 for PPC. I have never heard of it for any other platform. I'd love to see a directory listing of this PDP-11 version. It is possible this may have been a version of NT which had some rudimentary OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT had support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to believe that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. But I see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. >> Wasn't OS/2 a graphical system from the start? > > NO. It was written to replace MS-DOS. > (But it wanted a meg of RAM) > IFF you wanted GUI, then you ran "Windows for OS/2" on OS/2. > That was later renamed "Presentation Manager" as part of the MICROS~1 > effort to make sure that no product had a name that would give you a clue > what it was. OS/2 1.0 was text mode only. OS/2 1.1 introduced the Presentation Manager which was similar to the GUI in windows 3.1. OS/2 2.1 was even sold as OS/2 for Windows because it could run an existing copy of windows 3.1. That name created a lot of confusion as many thought OS/2 ran under windows rather then the other way around. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 1 18:30:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:30:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > As far as I know the only released platforms for OS/2 were the x86 and the > dead at birth OS/2 for PPC. I have never heard of it for any other > platform. I'd love to see a directory listing of this PDP-11 version. It > is possible this may have been a version of NT which had some rudimentary > OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT had > support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to believe > that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. But I > see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. Weren't there also ports of OS/2 and NT for MIPS? For NT, that one seems fairly well-known, but for OS/2 I'm positive it exisited too (at least in vaporware). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 18:48:43 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:48:43 -0500 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? Message-ID: <001901c84cd9$3a088430$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Just out of curiosity, is there a technique or device which can do raw reads of tracks on ST506/ST412 style hard disk drives similar to how a Catweasel can with a floppy disk drive? Thanks! Andrew Lynch From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 1 18:54:21 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <001901c84cd9$3a088430$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <001901c84cd9$3a088430$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > Just out of curiosity, is there a technique or device which can do raw reads > of tracks on ST506/ST412 style hard disk drives similar to how a Catweasel > can with a floppy disk drive? How about an st506/SCSI converter? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From madodel at ptdprolog.net Tue Jan 1 18:57:49 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:57:49 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <477AE18D.7090803@ptdprolog.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > >> As far as I know the only released platforms for OS/2 were the x86 and the >> dead at birth OS/2 for PPC. I have never heard of it for any other >> platform. I'd love to see a directory listing of this PDP-11 version. It >> is possible this may have been a version of NT which had some rudimentary >> OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT had >> support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to believe >> that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. But I >> see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. > > Weren't there also ports of OS/2 and NT for MIPS? For NT, that one seems > fairly well-known, but for OS/2 I'm positive it exisited too (at least in > vaporware). > > There was never any publicly acknowledged versions of OS/2 beyond the x86 and PPC releases, and OS/2 for PCC was difficult if not impossible to actually acquire even when IBM officially released it. The PPC release was the culmination of what started as a collaboration with Apple and Motorola and they started Taligent to develop it. The original concept was WorkplaceOS which was supposed to run on the PPC platform and be able to run multiple OS personalities, including OS/2, MacOS, and NT. Apple bailed first, then Motorola bailed, that left IBM alone with a product that was half-finished and a hardware platform that was fast falling behind the Intel platform it was supposed to blow away. IBM just tossed it out the door to say it fulfilled contractual promises it had made to large customers. It only ran on 4 IBM PPC based models and it had no networking support and was flakey to put it kindly. Is Taligent even around any more? Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 19:18:45 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:18:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> > > OS/2 was written at MICROS~1 by Gordon Letwin. > > LATER IBM took over rights. > > Did it have anything to do with Dave Cutler moving from DEC to MICROS~1 to > > combine OS/2 and some DEC stuff to create NT? On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0797H/vnewsf.htm#WarpGuru for a > history of OS/2 written by someone who was there from the beginning. Isn't it amazing how several people who were, in theory, working together, can come up with mutually incompatible versions of events that they all witnessed? David Both's writeup is very interesting. I need to buy a copy of Both's book, "Inside OS/2" to shelve alongside Gordon Letwin's "Inside OS/2". I'm reminded of the old "Computer Memory" threads where the military people said that industry and education did not play a significant part in developing the internet; education says that industry and military were unimportant; industry claimed that education and military were incidental. I agree with MOST of his gratuitous MICROS~1 bashing. I'm fascinated at how somebody so incredibly ignorant about the competition could do such significant OS development. "For you trivia buffs, the other OS delivered with the original PC was the UCSB P-System (University of Southern California at Berkely Pseudo code System). I will permit those who make a living from documenting the history of computers to describe that operating system elsewhere." For the record, the p-system OS was UCSD University of California San Diego. University of Southern California was never involved. Berkeley is spelled Berkeley, NOT Berkely. There is no Berkeley, nor even a Berkely in Southern California. To those in Berkeley (my license plate frames attest that I am an aluminum (sic)), the whole world is Unix. Heard of BSD? Unconfirmed anecdote: UCB bought exactly ONE copy of UCSD p-system, and Tom Callaway asked for his money back. Many will disagree with me, but I feel that a floppy based OS that can't handle non-contiguous files is the worst product ever marked as being an OS. "Shortly after this split, Microsoft renamed OS/2 V3 to Windows NT." MOST people do NOT consider NT to be a "renaming of OS/2". MICROS~1 does acknowledge a very substantial amount of OS/2 code used in creating NT. But many people say that much of the remainder is code stolen from DEC! Unconfirmed anecdote: When Cutler went to MICROS~1 and headed up the NT project, he wanted to move away from OS/2, and towards VMS code. DEC desperately wanted an Alpha port of NT, so they signed a release on any incidental pieces of their code that might end up in NT. Only later did they find out how much of it came from them. "The owner of DR snubbed the IBM lawyers and went flying or golfing (depending upon whose story you hear) instead." In spite of DRI's attempts to deny it, that story is very well confirmed. It was Oakland that he was flying to, and Gary was never much of a golfer. > OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT had > support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to believe > that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. "90+% portable C code" > But I see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. A citation of Wikipedia [even when correct] adds little credence to any argument. > > IFF you wanted GUI, then you ran "Windows for OS/2" on OS/2. > > That was later renamed "Presentation Manager" as part of the MICROS~1 > OS/2 1.0 was text mode only. OS/2 1.1 introduced the Presentation Manager It WAS once named "Windows for OS/2" That was slightly before the time of "OS/2 for Windows". > That name created a lot of confusion as many thought OS/2 ran under windows > rather then the other way around. MICROS~1 doesn't seem to have EVER cared about confusion over their product names. Unconfirmed rumor: there are rumors that MS put together a 68000 port of NT to run on Macintosh, but cut a deal with Apple to not release it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From madodel at ptdprolog.net Tue Jan 1 20:43:42 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:43:42 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <477AFA5E.2050806@ptdprolog.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> OS/2 was written at MICROS~1 by Gordon Letwin. >>> LATER IBM took over rights. >>> Did it have anything to do with Dave Cutler moving from DEC to MICROS~1 to >>> combine OS/2 and some DEC stuff to create NT? > > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: >> http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0797H/vnewsf.htm#WarpGuru for a >> history of OS/2 written by someone who was there from the beginning. > > Isn't it amazing how several people who were, in theory, working together, > can come up with mutually incompatible versions of events that they all > witnessed? > > David Both's writeup is very interesting. > I need to buy a copy of Both's book, "Inside OS/2" > to shelve alongside Gordon Letwin's "Inside OS/2". David Both wrote the original documentation for the IBM PC on the first PC off the assembly line. Everyone has their own agenda, but I would think that Letwin was far more invested in M4FT then Both was in IBM, though David was from a time when IBM employees were said to bleed blue. > > I'm reminded of the old "Computer Memory" threads where the military > people said that industry and education did not play a significant part in > developing the internet; education says that industry and military were > unimportant; industry claimed that education and military were incidental. > > I agree with MOST of his gratuitous MICROS~1 bashing. > > I'm fascinated at how somebody so incredibly ignorant about the > competition could do such significant OS development. > > "For you trivia buffs, the other OS delivered with the original PC was the > UCSB P-System (University of Southern California at Berkely Pseudo code > System). I will permit those who make a living from documenting the > history of computers to describe that operating system elsewhere." > > For the record, the p-system OS was UCSD University of California San > Diego. > University of Southern California was never involved. > Berkeley is spelled Berkeley, NOT Berkely. > There is no Berkeley, nor even a Berkely in Southern California. > To those in Berkeley (my license plate frames attest that I am an aluminum > (sic)), the whole world is Unix. Heard of BSD? > Unconfirmed anecdote: UCB bought exactly ONE copy of UCSD p-system, and > Tom Callaway asked for his money back. > Many will disagree with me, but I feel that a floppy based OS that can't > handle non-contiguous files is the worst product ever marked as being an > OS. > > "Shortly after this split, Microsoft renamed OS/2 V3 to Windows NT." > > MOST people do NOT consider NT to be a "renaming of OS/2". No but I believe a lot of people assume that Microsoft took all the code they had been working on and used it as the base for the initial cut of NT. The Cutler story is a nice diversion to pretend that it was written from scratch and was as bullet proof as VMS, but seriously considering the actual results I really doubt it. Considering Microsoft's history of stealing just about everything they had ever done, why would you think otherwise in the case of NT? > MICROS~1 does acknowledge a very substantial amount of OS/2 code used in > creating NT. But many people say that much of the remainder is code > stolen from DEC! There is just some OS/2 text mode support code in NT 3.51. And certain errors result in OS/2 error messages which is a bit disconcerting when they popup. I have no idea what may have been in the very early versions of Micosoft's 32bit windoze. > Unconfirmed anecdote: When Cutler went to MICROS~1 and headed up the NT > project, he wanted to move away from OS/2, and towards VMS code. DEC > desperately wanted an Alpha port of NT, so they signed a release on any > incidental pieces of their code that might end up in NT. Only later did > they find out how much of it came from them. > > "The owner of DR snubbed the IBM lawyers and went flying or golfing > (depending upon whose story you hear) instead." > > In spite of DRI's attempts to deny it, that story is very well confirmed. > It was Oakland that he was flying to, and Gary was never much of a golfer. > >> OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT had >> support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to believe >> that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. > "90+% portable C code" > >> But I see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. > A citation of Wikipedia [even when correct] adds little credence to any > argument. Fine with me, site a reference that lists a PDP-11 port of OS/2. > >>> IFF you wanted GUI, then you ran "Windows for OS/2" on OS/2. >>> That was later renamed "Presentation Manager" as part of the MICROS~1 >> OS/2 1.0 was text mode only. OS/2 1.1 introduced the Presentation Manager > > It WAS once named "Windows for OS/2" > That was slightly before the time of "OS/2 for Windows". > >> That name created a lot of confusion as many thought OS/2 ran under windows >> rather then the other way around. > > MICROS~1 doesn't seem to have EVER cared about confusion over their > product names. You mean like releasing the first version of NT as Windows NT 3.1 when there was never a 1.0 or 2.0 or even a 3.0 release? Of course a name can't make up for it still being beta level code. But then IBM did the same with its PPC release of OS/2 and the OS/2 1.0 release had some serious issues as well. > > Unconfirmed rumor: there are rumors that MS put together a 68000 port of > NT to run on Macintosh, but cut a deal with Apple to not release it. There was some sort of deal between m$ft and Apple back then. Not sure what the time frame for what you cite is, but back in 1995-1996 timeframe when Apple abandoned Taligent and WorkplaceOS, they also killed off development of Quicktime for OS/2 just before it was to be released, citing that they needed to save money, yet the project was entirely funded by IBM. I seem to recall that m$ft made a large investment in AAPL at about the same time, but I might be off by a few years. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 1 21:13:17 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:13:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477AFA5E.2050806@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AFA5E.2050806@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080101190659.D57349@shell.lmi.net> > > Isn't it amazing how several people who were, in theory, working together, > > can come up with mutually incompatible versions of events that they all > > witnessed? On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > David Both wrote the original documentation for the IBM PC on the first PC > off the assembly line. Everyone has their own agenda, but I would think > that Letwin was far more invested in M4FT then Both was in IBM, though > David was from a time when IBM employees were said to bleed blue. Yes, Letwin was part of the original dozen in 1978 http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/images/exec/msft78.jpg > No but I believe a lot of people assume that Microsoft took all the code > they had been working on and used it as the base for the initial cut of NT. > The Cutler story is a nice diversion to pretend that it was written from > scratch and was as bullet proof as VMS, but seriously considering the > actual results I really doubt it. Considering Microsoft's history of > stealing just about everything they had ever done, why would you think > otherwise in the case of NT? I don't know how much of it was stolen from OS/2 (which IBM and MS both had non-exclusive access to), and how much was stolen from DEC. "Written from scratch"?? NO WAY. > > A citation of Wikipedia [even when correct] adds little credence to any > > argument. > Fine with me, site a reference that lists a PDP-11 port of OS/2. This thread is the first that I've heard of a PDP-11 port of OS/2 > > MICROS~1 doesn't seem to have EVER cared about confusion over their > > product names. > You mean like releasing the first version of NT as Windows NT 3.1 when > there was never a 1.0 or 2.0 or even a 3.0 release? Of course a name can't > make up for it still being beta level code. But then IBM did the same with > its PPC release of OS/2 and the OS/2 1.0 release had some serious issues as > well. TRS-DOS started with version 2.0 Apple-DOS started with version ? Version numbers were OFTEN corrupted to try to imply a placement relative to competing products. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 1 21:39:53 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:39:53 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0800 1/1/08, Fred Cisin wrote: >"Shortly after this split, Microsoft renamed OS/2 V3 to Windows NT." > >MOST people do NOT consider NT to be a "renaming of OS/2". >MICROS~1 does acknowledge a very substantial amount of OS/2 code used in >creating NT. But many people say that much of the remainder is code >stolen from DEC! >Unconfirmed anecdote: When Cutler went to MICROS~1 and headed up the NT >project, he wanted to move away from OS/2, and towards VMS code. DEC >desperately wanted an Alpha port of NT, so they signed a release on any >incidental pieces of their code that might end up in NT. Only later did >they find out how much of it came from them. Another problem with the OS/2 V3 statement is that Microsoft was last involved with V1.2, V1.3 and forward were IBM's work. It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft was involved in V2, and it wasn't until V2.1 that the OS was really good. I was a big OS/2 fan from '91-95, though at the beginning of '92 I started using Linux. I switched to the Mac in '95, though have continued to use Linux and Unix as well. I added VMS to the mix at home in '98. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From js at cimmeri.com Tue Jan 1 09:54:05 2008 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:54:05 -0500 Subject: HP Tape drive for Christmas (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <200801010458.m014wf0e097260@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801010458.m014wf0e097260@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477A621D.5050704@cimmeri.com> I use a Cipher M995S 9 track on a 486PC w/ DOS and Adaptec controller ...using either Central Point Backup v.9, or John Wilson's (dBit) Scsi Tape utility. ~ J From Paul.Bartlett at axonglobal.com Tue Jan 1 10:11:41 2008 From: Paul.Bartlett at axonglobal.com (Paul Bartlett) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:11:41 +0000 Subject: New Item for Collection Message-ID: <313BF176-0089-439E-B5C9-2B2484B2C323@mimectl> Do you have any interest in adding an HP 9000 Series 400t Workstation (HP/UX), complete with VRX Graphics and 19" 98754A monitor, to your collection? Regards, Paul Bartlett. London Save a tree... Please don't print this email unless you really need to. The content of this email is confidential and for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee of this email (or responsible for the delivery of this message to such person) you may not copy, forward, disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it in any form whatsoever. If you have received this email in error please email the sender by replying to this message and delete this message thereafter. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of our Company shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. Axon Solutions Limited Registered Office: Axon Centre, Church Road, Egham, Surrey, TW20 9QB, UK Registered in England & Wales under Company No. 2976395 Axon Solutions Limited is a limited company. Axon Group plc Registered Office: Axon Centre, Church Road, Egham, Surrey, TW20 9QB, UK Registered in England & Wales under Company No. 3419641 From smith-rj at comcast.net Tue Jan 1 14:02:41 2008 From: smith-rj at comcast.net (Ray Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:02:41 -0800 Subject: IBM 3380 and 3880 manuals Message-ID: Just Wondering.. Did you ever find the 3380 maintenance manuals. I wrote the installation section of the manuals, and I don't have a personal copy. Any help? Ray Smith From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Tue Jan 1 17:34:46 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 18:34:46 -0500 Subject: microvax 3800 available in NE ohio References: Message-ID: <000b01c84cce$e502f790$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> NE Ohio?, I am currently working in Warren, Ohio at WCI Steel, Am I close? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "9000 VAX" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: microvax 3800 available in NE ohio > Hello people, > > I am dumping my small collection. If anybody is interested and is able to > pick it up, you are welcome to get it. I do not ship or store. It was a > complete microvax 3800 (upgraded to 3900) but I took the KA655 to fix my > barebone 3900. You get the computer with RA7? DISK, DSSI disk controller, > memory, ethernet card, tape card and tape drive. Plug in a KA655 and it is > ready to go. > > vax9000 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ever watched "American Beauty"? > From lynch610 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 1 18:03:57 2008 From: lynch610 at sbcglobal.net (Andrew and Kay Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:03:57 -0500 Subject: Vector Graphic computers Message-ID: <000101c84cd2$f8cd0cd0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi If anyone has any Vector Graphic computers they would like to restore I would like to offer some help if they would like it. Vector Graphic computers can be challenging to restore because of the unusual hardware requirements (100tpi floppy disk drives, 16 sector floppy disks, etc) and a relative scarcity of applicable software and/or boot disks available on the internet. The friendly people on the Vector Graphic mailing list have made a lot of progress lately on various VG projects like the VG simulator, disk imaging project, a disk image library, ROM image library, more comprehensive documentation, etc. Even some hardware related issues like make and burn ROM images, how to boot your VG using 96tpi floppy disk drives, how to make or buy your own 16 sector floppy disks, etc. Check out http://vector-archive.org for some of the new resources available. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 2 02:30:41 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:30:41 +0100 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080102093041.6a2b8b45@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:02:58 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I honestly have no idea how to best do a tape under Unix There are "cptape" and "maketape" floating around the net. I think I found them on the TUHS ftp server. cptapes copies each tape file to a disk file and logs metainformation like block size to a separate file. maketape can recreate tapes with correct block sizes, EOF marks etc.. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 08:13:58 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:13:58 -0600 Subject: Vector and ST506 In-Reply-To: <477944E8.12360.16785D76@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801010145.m011jHVG095724@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477944E8.12360.16785D76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <477B9C26.80904@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, the ST506 knows nothing from sectors--it's about as "bare" and > interface as they come. I wonder if by "constant index" it's meant > that there's always an INDEX/ signal present; not just when the drive > is selected. I'm not sure that a true ST506 can be jumpered to be permanently selected - I think that only came along with ST412-type drives. (The schematics are in the ST506 service manual, but I'm not awake enough yet to go looking!) I've gone and deleted previous messages, so I'm lacking context here, but I'd interpret "constant index" as meaning that there's a single index pulse present for every cylinder (i.e. behaviour doesn't change depending on current cylinder) cheers Jules From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 2 08:50:57 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:50:57 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people were talking about. The early versions IBM OS/2 ran on the 80286 processor. Later versions required a 386 processor. There was an effort in IBM to put it on PowerPC derived boxes - I know people who worked on that, and was actually jealous that I didn't get on that project. (In retrospect that was not such a bad thing.) How on earth does something like IBM OS/2 ever get ported to a PDP-11? That doesn't seem feasible. I'd have thought that I would have heard of such a thing before this thread. Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 09:20:59 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:20:59 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> Message-ID: <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > How on earth does something like IBM OS/2 ever get ported to a PDP-11? > That doesn't seem feasible. I'd have thought that I would have heard of > such a thing before this thread. Just because the tape directory listing can be pulled up and matches an OS/2 install tree does not mean that it's an "OS/2 port for the PDP"... surely someone needs to actually look at the tape contents and verify that it's PDP code before any such claim can be made? It's not impossible that such a beast exists - but isn't it far more likely that someone once happened to back up an x86 copy of OS/2 onto tape via a PDP (for whatever reason)? cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 09:23:38 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:23:38 -0600 Subject: Vector and ST506 In-Reply-To: <477B9C26.80904@gmail.com> References: <200801010145.m011jHVG095724@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477944E8.12360.16785D76@cclist.sydex.com> <477B9C26.80904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477BAC7A.9090709@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I've gone and deleted previous messages, so I'm lacking context here That'll teach me to switch message threading on within Thunderbird - it had dumped all my 'context' elsewhere (I think several subject line changes must have confused the heck out of it). I see people are making sense of the VG issues now, anyway... From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Jan 2 09:38:01 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:38:01 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> Message-ID: <477BAFD9.50704@ptdprolog.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there was > another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people were > talking about. There was only one OS/2 and that was from IBM, unless you also count the early versions released as Microsoft OS/2. ;-) Some people wonder into the OS/2 Usenet groups thinking it has something to do with MacOS or even Windows 98 Second Edition sometimes. IBM officially killed the publicly available OS/2 line off as of a year ago, but they had been trying to do so since 1995. There is an OEM release based on the last IBM release (4.52) with significant enhancements, called eComStation, which is now at version 1.2 but a 2.0 release is in testing. It is not Open Source and every copy sold requires a license fee to be paid to IBM. It exists primarily to provide support to the many OS/2 based systems that many companies still run because they can't find anything to replace them. IBM did open source the OS/2 JFS source, but that was originally written for AIX, so it was a good fit for porting to Linux. > > The early versions IBM OS/2 ran on the 80286 processor. Later versions > required a 386 processor. There was an effort in IBM to put it on > PowerPC derived boxes - I know people who worked on that, and was > actually jealous that I didn't get on that project. (In retrospect that > was not such a bad thing.) I have an IBM PC Power Series 830 box here with OS/2 for the PPC on it. it will eventually end up in the MARCH computer museum in New Jersey. It boots OS/2, which is neat but there isn't much one can do with it other then look at it. There were a few minor applications ported to it, but there are no printer or network drivers that I have found. Supposedly all the money IBM pored into the Taligent/WorkplaceOS/OS/2 PPC project was one of the reasons leading to the eventual killing off of the OS/2 x86 development. I know there were in reality a lot of reasons for finally pulling the plug, but I wonder how much IBM lost on that project. > > How on earth does something like IBM OS/2 ever get ported to a PDP-11? > That doesn't seem feasible. I'd have thought that I would have heard of > such a thing before this thread. > Good question. That is why I seriously doubt that such a thing existed, but as was pointed out NT was ported to several different platforms including the PPC, Alpha, MIPS and even SPARC from what I have read, so I guess anything is possible. There is Linux on the IBM mainframe now-a-days also. Who would have imagined that a few years ago. There was a rumor for years that IBM had win32 applications running under OS/2 Warp in their labs but never released the feature. Now you can do that to a limited extent using an open source product called Odin, which was based on IBM's original work which was called DAX and Open32. Supposedly IBM never released it because Microsoft kept changing the win32 API making a reliably workable product impossible. They used it instead to port Lotus Smart Suite to OS/2. That was one instance where the rumors were true. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 2 10:57:54 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:57:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mail formatting In-Reply-To: <20071230032909.GA32378@brevard.conman.org> References: <8CA184FC02D88FF-D80-1285@FWM-D01.sysops.aol.com> <20071229103517.L6225@shell.lmi.net> <20071230032909.GA32378@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200801021701.MAA07326@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And while I wrote code to handle CR, LF, CRLF, LFCR, I never did see > LFCR in the wild. I just noticed an occurrence of LFCR "in the wild". I run a number of NetBSD machines (most of which are actually on-topic, though there are a few peecees). Amonjg them is a "shark", a DEC DNARD. I have this set up with serial console, and I happened to notice, today, when looking at a snapshot of output from the serial console, that it uses LFCR line breaks, on the serial line, during device autoconfig! (Once the kernel is up, it starts using CRLF.) I haven't dug into the NetBSD kernel code to see where these LFCRs are coming from. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 11:45:06 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:45:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080102093910.K83850@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Just because the tape directory listing can be pulled up and matches an OS/2 > install tree does not mean that it's an "OS/2 port for the PDP"... surely > someone needs to actually look at the tape contents and verify that it's PDP > code before any such claim can be made? > It's not impossible that such a beast exists - but isn't it far more likely > that someone once happened to back up an x86 copy of OS/2 onto tape via a PDP > (for whatever reason)? Ah HA! Microsoft used to do some/all? of their development using cross-compilers on PDPs. See Paul Allen's pdpplanet.com If there isn't any more information available yet other than the juxtaposition of "PDP-11" and "OS/2", then perhaps this is a backup tape of development files (maybe even source code?) Or maybe it's just bookkeeping files of resources allocated to the projects. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 2 11:56:13 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:56:13 -0000 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BAFD9.50704@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> madodel wrote: > Good question. That is why I seriously doubt that such a thing > existed, but as was pointed out NT was ported to several different > platforms including the PPC, Alpha, MIPS and even SPARC from what I > have read, so I guess anything is possible. There is Linux on the > IBM mainframe now-a-days also. Who would have imagined that a few > years ago. I have a WNT Alpha box (i.e. cardboard with CD and docs inside) in view as I type this. PPC also had an NT port. I'm not sure the MIPS one ever made it out of Redmond, but it did supposedly exist. Note that those are all 32-bit or 64-bit platforms and the PDP-11 was only 16 bits. I guess an MS-DOS or OS/2 port to the PDP-11 would be technically possible, possibly even feasible. I very much doubt that it ever crossed anyone's mind to even try: the PDP-11 was dead well before OS/2 was ever thought of. OK, the last DEC PDP-11s were announced in the early 1990s and Mentec carried on for a while beyond then, but who in their right mind would consider porting OS/2 to the PDP-11 at that stage? If this really is "OS/2" then I presume it is something else entirely that just happens to be called OS/2 or OS-2 or even DOS-2 and the first letter wore off! It would be nice to know whether it is a printed or hand-written label and _exactly_ what it says. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 01/01/2008 12:09 From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:06:35 2008 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:06:35 +0100 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why dont ask for the directory/with CRCs or similar and compare with other OS/2 checksums ? Paco On Jan 2, 2008 4:20 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > How on earth does something like IBM OS/2 ever get ported to a PDP-11? > > That doesn't seem feasible. I'd have thought that I would have heard of > > such a thing before this thread. > > Just because the tape directory listing can be pulled up and matches an > OS/2 > install tree does not mean that it's an "OS/2 port for the PDP"... surely > someone needs to actually look at the tape contents and verify that it's > PDP > code before any such claim can be made? > > It's not impossible that such a beast exists - but isn't it far more > likely > that someone once happened to back up an x86 copy of OS/2 onto tape via a > PDP > (for whatever reason)? > > cheers > > Jules > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 2 12:14:51 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:14:51 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080102121331.1004ea58@mail.threedee.com> At 08:50 AM 1/2/2008, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people were talking about. Who else is betting on it being P/OS v2.0 or OS/8? - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 12:21:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:21:13 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801021454.m02ErlnH012274@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801021454.m02ErlnH012274@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:50:57 -0600 > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there was > another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people were > talking about. Sure--and OS X is the 10th version of that system. ;) I'm thinking that there's probably some confusion over the labeling with this PDP-11 thingie, whatever it is. There would be no good reason to produce an -11 version of OS/2 at the time as the platform was obsolete (or at least obsolescent). My guess is that's someone's OS, but not IBM nor M$. I used DOS on an S/360, but it doesn't resemble anything called "DOS" nowadays (there was also an S/360 TOS; Sytos called their product for the PC a "Tape Operating System", which I found to be very confusing, as it required DOS to run). I do recall (more vividly than I care to, as it still makes my blood boil) one aspect of the OS/2-NT charade. Microsoft solicited and accepted pre-release subscriptions (about $3K each) from OS/2 developers for the "new" OS/2 that was going to be released Real Soon Now. After they had everyone's money, M$ turned around and said that they weren't going to do OS/2, but rather Something Better and that they would be supplying that instead (NT 3.1). IIRC, they nearly had a lynch mob headed toward Redmond screaming for BillG's corpse. M$ did relent and refunded the advance payment to those who screamed loudest. Doubtless, quite a number of people got stuck with a dog of an operating system that they didn't ask for an didn't want. I don't think NT really caught on until about 3.51. One thing that I had to hand IBM was that their developer's documentation was superb for OS/2. The same could not be said for Windows 3.0. I still have both on my bookshelf. In those pre-CD days, you could estimate the quality of the documentation simply by putting the boxes of developer's material on the bathroom scale. I don't know about Vista, but 2K and XP still host the OS/2 subsystem as well as HPFS. I've got a couple of 16-bit OS/2 applications that I still use on 2K. Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:26:05 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:26:05 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080102093910.K83850@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> <20080102093910.K83850@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <477BD73D.40909@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Ah HA! > Microsoft used to do some/all? of their development using cross-compilers > on PDPs. See Paul Allen's pdpplanet.com > > If there isn't any more information available yet other than the > juxtaposition of "PDP-11" and "OS/2", then perhaps this is a backup tape > of development files (maybe even source code?) Or maybe it's > just bookkeeping files of resources allocated to the projects. Well, the OP doesn't state where the tape *originally* came from - Dan, is it even known to be from within DEC/MS/IBM or anyone else directly involved with OS/2? If not, it's also possible that someone happened to be using TK50 media (via whatever means) to back up their personal data, and backed up either their installation media or a copy of their OS/2 install tree. Nothing can be ruled out as of yet, of course... (and it would be nice if it *was* a 'forgotten OS' :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:33:44 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:33:44 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > I very much doubt that it ever crossed anyone's mind to even try: > the PDP-11 was dead well before OS/2 was ever thought of. OK, the > last DEC PDP-11s were announced in the early 1990s and Mentec carried > on for a while beyond then, but who in their right mind would > consider porting OS/2 to the PDP-11 at that stage? That was my immediate thought too - the timeframe of OS/2 just seems wrong for a PDP port, hence my questioning whether Dan or anyone *knows* that it's for the PDP platform. (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after it was a dead OS elsewhere - it's *possible* that a PDP port was done somewhere along the line for a specific customer/market... it doesn't seem likely, but it is a possibility) > It would be nice to know whether it is a printed or hand-written > label and _exactly_ what it says. Label scan, directory listing, file checksums/contents, details on the history of that particular tape (if known)... it's too early to say anything right now. Very interesting if it really is a PDP port, but I'd say that the odds are against it. (I've been here before with tape media several times - labels are often cryptic, completely 'alien' systems get used to write data, or what looks from a directory listing to be something exciting turns out to be something very boring) cheers J. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 2 12:53:17 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:53:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jan 02, 2008 05:56:13 PM Message-ID: <200801021853.m02IrH0x008628@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have a WNT Alpha box (i.e. cardboard with CD and docs inside) in > view as I type this. PPC also had an NT port. I'm not sure the MIPS > one ever made it out of Redmond, but it did supposedly exist. > > Note that those are all 32-bit or 64-bit platforms and the PDP-11 > was only 16 bits. I fail to see what Windows NT has to do with anything. OS/2 was originally 16-bit, and ran on the 80286. I believe the first version or two of Windows NT shipped with x86, Alpha, PPC, and MIPS hardware support (at least I think those were the 4 listed architectures). Somewhere I should have a box that says it supports all 4. > I guess an MS-DOS or OS/2 port to the PDP-11 would be technically > possible, possibly even feasible. > > I very much doubt that it ever crossed anyone's mind to even try: > the PDP-11 was dead well before OS/2 was ever thought of. OK, the > last DEC PDP-11s were announced in the early 1990s and Mentec carried > on for a while beyond then, but who in their right mind would > consider porting OS/2 to the PDP-11 at that stage? >From Wikipedia, development of OS/2 started in 1985, and V1.0 was released in Decmember of 1987. This pretty much agree's with what I remember from that timeframe. As V1.0 was text based, and 16-bit, it is possible that a PDP-11 port could have existed. Please note, I am not saying that this is OS/2 for the PDP-11, just that such a port would have been possible in that time frame. I can't see why such a port would have been done. On a related note oddly enough at least a partial port of CP/M-68k to the MicroVAX 2000 exists. I believe one of the list members is the one that has done it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 2 12:59:07 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 02, 2008 10:21:13 AM Message-ID: <200801021859.m02IxCde008741@onyx.spiritone.com> > I do recall (more vividly than I care to, as it still makes my blood > boil) one aspect of the OS/2-NT charade. Microsoft solicited and > accepted pre-release subscriptions (about $3K each) from OS/2 > developers for the "new" OS/2 that was going to be released Real Soon > Now. After they had everyone's money, M$ turned around and said that > they weren't going to do OS/2, but rather Something Better and that > they would be supplying that instead (NT 3.1). IIRC, they nearly had > a lynch mob headed toward Redmond screaming for BillG's corpse. M$ > did relent and refunded the advance payment to those who screamed > loudest. Doubtless, quite a number of people got stuck with a dog of > an operating system that they didn't ask for an didn't want. I > don't think NT really caught on until about 3.51. Part of why I do my best to avoid Microsoft products (other than MS Office) is due to Visual Basic V1.0. Both the box and the documenation in it that I purchased said that Windows and OS/2 were supported. While I felt Visual Basic V1.0 was a terrific product, it signaled the end of Microsoft OS's as my primary OS, and eventually contributed to my buying my first Mac. Zane From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 2 13:14:17 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:14:17 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801021853.m02IrH0x008628@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200801021853.m02IrH0x008628@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <477BE289.3060907@shiresoft.com> Folks, there was *no* OS/2 for anything other than the x86 and the PPC. I was on one of the early IBM task forces for the definition of what was to become OS/2 (they didn't listen to me but then that's another story) so I think I can say with some authority what was going on. The x86 kernel code was all written in assembler. Hell even the interfaces were defined as x86 structures with x86 registers. The PPC code was based upon the Workplace OS project (of which I am *intimately* familiar being one of the original 6 people at IBM on the project). The PPC version shared almost no code with the x86 version of OS/2. For those counting, Workplace OS consumed something on the order of 600+ engineers and $2 Billion over the course of 4 years. So there was no possibility of OS/2 being "ported" to the PDP-11. It just wasn't possible. Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I have a WNT Alpha box (i.e. cardboard with CD and docs inside) in >> view as I type this. PPC also had an NT port. I'm not sure the MIPS >> one ever made it out of Redmond, but it did supposedly exist. >> >> Note that those are all 32-bit or 64-bit platforms and the PDP-11 >> was only 16 bits. >> > > I fail to see what Windows NT has to do with anything. OS/2 was originally > 16-bit, and ran on the 80286. > > I believe the first version or two of Windows NT shipped with x86, Alpha, > PPC, and MIPS hardware support (at least I think those were the 4 listed > architectures). Somewhere I should have a box that says it supports all 4. > > >> I guess an MS-DOS or OS/2 port to the PDP-11 would be technically >> possible, possibly even feasible. >> >> I very much doubt that it ever crossed anyone's mind to even try: >> the PDP-11 was dead well before OS/2 was ever thought of. OK, the >> last DEC PDP-11s were announced in the early 1990s and Mentec carried >> on for a while beyond then, but who in their right mind would >> consider porting OS/2 to the PDP-11 at that stage? >> > > >From Wikipedia, development of OS/2 started in 1985, and V1.0 was released > in Decmember of 1987. This pretty much agree's with what I remember from > that timeframe. As V1.0 was text based, and 16-bit, it is possible that a > PDP-11 port could have existed. > > Please note, I am not saying that this is OS/2 for the PDP-11, just that > such a port would have been possible in that time frame. I can't see why > such a port would have been done. > > On a related note oddly enough at least a partial port of CP/M-68k to the > MicroVAX 2000 exists. I believe one of the list members is the one that has > done it. > > Zane > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 2 13:23:34 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:23:34 -0000 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801021853.m02IrH0x008628@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000b01c84d74$f8a6b880$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I fail to see what Windows NT has to do with anything. It was mentioned earlier in the thread and I wanted the box to feel useful one more time :-) > As V1.0 was text based, and 16-bit, it is possible that a > PDP-11 port could have existed. In the same way that an MS-DOS port could have (but didn't AFAIK) exist: i.e. technically possible, commercially a waste of time. > I can't see why such a port would have been done. Me neither. DEC couldn't have done it and neither IBM nor MS would have had any reason to do so. Surely that label could have been eyeballed by now :-) > On a related note oddly enough at least a partial port of CP/M-68k to > the MicroVAX 2000 exists. I believe one of the list members is the > one that has done it. Commercially? Surely the uVAX 2000 wasn't out until after CP/M had had its heyay? If it is non-commercial, I'd be willing to see if my uV2K still works just to try it :-) Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 01/01/2008 12:09 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 2 13:29:48 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:29:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <000b01c84d74$f8a6b880$5b01a8c0@uatempname> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jan 02, 2008 07:23:34 PM Message-ID: <200801021929.m02JTmt9009480@onyx.spiritone.com> > Commercially? Surely the uVAX 2000 wasn't out until after CP/M had > had its heyay? If it is non-commercial, I'd be willing to see if my > uV2K still works just to try it :-) Non-commercial of course. :^) This was done in the last 2-3 years. I forget who buy, but I do remember they suffered a setback when their developement system failured. I didn't pay to much attention, as while I have a MicroVAX 2000, it was only partially functional last time I messed with it. It could format a HD, but had bad memory. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 2 13:36:18 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:36:18 -0800 Subject: reality check (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) Message-ID: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> ggs said: > Folks, there was *no* OS/2 for anything other than the x86 and the PPC. Awww, injecting REALITY into typical classiccmp nonsense. Also, there was NO NT for the 68K, as it REQUIRES little-endian support in the CPU. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 13:48:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:48:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801021454.m02ErlnH012274@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sure--and OS X is the 10th version of that system. ;) Yeah, but I think that OS-9 on the the coco was almost as much fun as OS/360. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 2 14:04:54 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac OS X (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 02, 2008 11:48:47 AM Message-ID: <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sure--and OS X is the 10th version of that system. ;) Depends on your definition of "that system". Mac OS X is the 10th version of the Mac Operating System. Granted it has almost nothing to do with earlier versions. Mac OS X is the 5th or 6th version (arguements could probably be made for both) of the NeXT Operating System. "Prelude to Rhapsody" was nothing more than OPENSTEP (aka NeXTStep) 4.2, and the first Rhapsody Developers release ran on x86, with the classic Mac OS 8 GUI. I forget when that mess known as Aqua came about. While they've toned it down, I still prefer the classic Mac look and feel. The fact that it ran on x86 was why I had bene expecting for years for Apple to move to Intel, and why they were able to do it so quickly. Personally I would have preferred for them to base Mac OS X on BeOS rather than NeXTStep, as I think the OS would have better performance. Of course if they had, they wouldn't have gotten Steve Jobs back, and without him returning, I suspect Apple would be long dead. Zane From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 2 14:09:11 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:09:11 -0500 Subject: Decmate collectors? In-Reply-To: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801021454.m02ErlnH012274@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <477BEF67.4080404@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Are there any DecMate collectors on the list? I have a really excellent shape Decmate (VT100 case) and before putting it onto Ebay I wanted to see if I could keep it to more of a fixed audience of serious classic computing collectors and not just have it out onto Ebay to go to someone who may have a passing fancy, then stick it into a closet or trash it. I bought this about 2 years ago, it was mixed in with a couple of VT100's and while its a great system, I'm only into MV 4000's and 11/7x0's Email me off-list if interested. Curt From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:28:23 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:28:23 -0600 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <001901c84cd9$3a088430$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <001901c84cd9$3a088430$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <477BF3E7.2070808@gmail.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > Just out of curiosity, is there a technique or device which can do raw reads > of tracks on ST506/ST412 style hard disk drives similar to how a Catweasel > can with a floppy disk drive? To the best of my knowledge, no - and I've been keeping an ear to the ground for such things for a while (plus it's a discussion which crops up here every once in a while, but I don't believe anyone's produced any working hardware yet). The speeds involved (particularly if over-sampling the data) are reasonably high - enough that it'd be tricky[1] to throw something together out of OTS TTL parts. That puts such a project more within the realm of people who know all about interfacing to high speed microcontrollers, and the pool of available carbon units with the time, skills and inclination to make such a device is pretty darn small. [1] perhaps impossible. I think some TTL parts will run up to 60MHz or so with a good design and layout, but even that is perhaps a bit on the slow side when dealing with ST412 drives and doing any reasonable oversampling. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jan 2 14:27:31 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:27:31 +0000 Subject: Decmate collectors? In-Reply-To: <477BEF67.4080404@atarimuseum.com> References: <200801021454.m02ErlnH012274@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> <477BEF67.4080404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20080102202731.GA5526@usap.gov> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 03:09:11PM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > Are there any DecMate collectors on the list? Yes, but I already have one (a rescue from a college lab hallway, two decades ago). I had been trying to fire it up again this past summer, and had dug out the pedestal, the CPU, and a keyboard, but stalled when I could not locate the CPU-to-RX02 cable. > I have a really > excellent shape Decmate (VT100 case) and before putting it onto Ebay I > wanted to see if I could keep it to more of a fixed audience of serious > classic computing collectors and not just have it out onto Ebay to go to > someone who may have a passing fancy, then stick it into a closet or > trash it. They are very nice, for a microprocessor-based -8. I'm sure someone on the list would love to have one. I'm responding, not because I myself am interested, but because of a tangental topic I was going to post on today, anyway... specifically about the floppy-drive cable... Just yesterday, I saved a handful of DC37M shells from the scrap bin, and thought about whipping up a dual-RX02 interface cable. My recollection is that the DECmate has a DC37F on the back, and either a DC37M to single DB25M or to two DB25Ms. What I don't have handy is the pinout for the Y cable, nor even a signal count so I can select an appropriate length of raw cable to which to attach pins to. If anyone could direct me to the appropriate manual/engineering drawing set/etc., I would be much obliged. I can retrieve PDF files, but searching from here is a bit taxing. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Jan-2008 at 20:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -20.9 F (-29.4 C) Windchill -29.8 F (-34.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.4 kts Grid 85 Barometer 685.1 mb (10436 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 14:41:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: reality check (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20080102123442.Q94061@shell.lmi.net> > > Folks, there was *no* OS/2 for anything other than the x86 and the PPC. On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Al Kossow wrote: > Awww, injecting REALITY into typical classiccmp nonsense. Can he do that? > Also, there was NO NT for the 68K, as it REQUIRES little-endian support in > the CPU. When the MICROS~1 stooge told me that NT was "all portable C code", he got offended when I told him that THAT is an oxymoron. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 2 14:46:11 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:46:11 -0700 Subject: Decmate collectors? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 02 Jan 2008 20:27:31 +0000. <20080102202731.GA5526@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20080102202731.GA5526 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 03:09:11PM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Are there any DecMate collectors on the list? > > Yes, but I already have one [...] Ditto :-). Actually it was sold on ebay as a VT10x terminal and not specifically listed as a DECmate, but it is a DECmate. It didn't have the pedestal or the RX floppy drives, but I've since acquired the drive separately. I also recently got a VT180 with 4 floppies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bert at brothom.nl Wed Jan 2 14:51:11 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:51:11 +0100 Subject: reality check In-Reply-To: <20080102123442.Q94061@shell.lmi.net> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> <20080102123442.Q94061@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <477BF93F.5080603@brothom.nl> > When the MICROS~1 stooge told me that NT was "all portable C code", he got > offended when I told him that THAT is an oxymoron. I'm confused. Are you saying that it is impossible to write portable C code? From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Jan 2 14:49:19 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:49:19 -0600 Subject: wanted "PC Brand" system and "Best Data" 2400 Modem Message-ID: <477BF8CF.7040605@tdh.com> This is pretty boring and only borderline "classic", but for sentimental reasons, I'm looking for a beige box-ish "PC Brand" computer. Anyone happen to know of, or anything about them or the company? Figured by some chance, somewhere here knows something and may even have one stashed away still. They were sold mail order early 1990. The ones I know of were a desktop style, 386 or 486. The system itself was not a standard common AT, but a "PC Brand" laid out chassis and motherboard as far as I can tell. Also, looking for an Internal ISA "Best Data" 2400 modem. A generic POS, but still I'd like to just get my hands on one. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 2 14:56:52 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:56:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: reality check In-Reply-To: <477BF93F.5080603@brothom.nl> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> <20080102123442.Q94061@shell.lmi.net> <477BF93F.5080603@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20080102125326.S94061@shell.lmi.net> > > When the MICROS~1 stooge told me that NT was "all portable C code", he got > > offended when I told him that THAT is an oxymoron. On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Bert Thomas wrote: > I'm confused. Are you saying that it is impossible to write portable C code? It is certainly POSSIBLE, particularly if you accept conditional compilation in the definition. Many application programs can be quite portable at a source code level. But, there are very few people around who can do that at an OS level. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Jan 2 15:18:15 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:18:15 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BE289.3060907@shiresoft.com> References: <200801021853.m02IrH0x008628@onyx.spiritone.com> <477BE289.3060907@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <477BFF97.9000004@ptdprolog.net> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Folks, there was *no* OS/2 for anything other than the x86 and the PPC. > I was on one of the early IBM task forces for the definition of what was > to become OS/2 (they didn't listen to me but then that's another story) > so I think I can say with some authority what was going on. > That is what I thought. Thanks for the clarification. > The x86 kernel code was all written in assembler. Hell even the > interfaces were defined as x86 structures with x86 registers. > > The PPC code was based upon the Workplace OS project (of which I am > *intimately* familiar being one of the original 6 people at IBM on the > project). The PPC version shared almost no code with the x86 version of > OS/2. Its amazing though how OS/2 PPC looks and feels just like Warp3. Its a shame it was never finished, but seeing the following I understand why IBM decided to pull the plug. > > For those counting, Workplace OS consumed something on the order of 600+ > engineers and $2 Billion over the course of 4 years. And that was back when a billion dollars was worth something. This is more than I had heard before, but I suppose it depends on what people consider included in the development and from when. Wasn't Taligent started to work on that project? > > So there was no possibility of OS/2 being "ported" to the PDP-11. It > just wasn't possible. > OS/2 PPC is still an amazing piece of work. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 2 16:43:34 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:43:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477B6599.26072.1EC808C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <656592.66077.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis wrote:I don't know about Vista, but 2K and XP still host the OS/2 subsystem as well as HPFS. I've got a couple of 16-bit OS/2 applications that I still use on 2K. Cheers, Chuck Yeah, I noticed a OS2.exe file within one of the subdirectories ("system32"?) when I was nosing around the files looking for hidden images and tools. Naturally I don't just double-click on any file, but exploring the folders has helped me learn a bit about how Windows works - and only goes to increase my hatred of the OS. I have a whole bunch of old PC floppies from early 90's which I sometimes look at on my laptop. I know I have a few Commander Keen games among them, the Bill Gates screensaver (hehe), various tools and images on them. Would it be worth archiving them onto CD or not? I don't have a list of what's on them as I'm still trying to do an inventory of my Amiga CD's, but I do know theres about 100 PC floppies that are currently readable. Happy New Year, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 2 16:31:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080101162444.B49652@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 1, 8 05:18:45 pm Message-ID: (UCSD P-system) > Many will disagree with me, but I feel that a floppy based OS that can't > handle non-contiguous files is the worst product ever marked as being an > OS. IIRC, RT11 (and thus PERQ interchange floppies, which have almost the same filesystem) suffer from that problem. As does the HP LIF filesystem, used on many of their machines. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 19:15:30 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:15:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: wrt recent DEC talk Message-ID: <486477.10397.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> someone posted something about DEC racks. I'm not exactly sure what a rack is in this context - didn't read the posts nor do I intend to, but I have a DEC cabinet thing that's presently sitting out in the yard. If this is what was meant by a *rack*, a cabinet/battleship on casters type things, then there's one sitting out in the yard. In good shape I would think. If anyone's interested, give me a hollur. O and MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEARS all you psyk vintij gewrooze you! LOL LOL! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jan 2 19:57:28 2008 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:57:28 -0800 Subject: Free terminals in Nashua, NH References: <477927ED.3080300@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200801021757280921.DCBB0B39@192.168.42.129> The fellow who sent me the attached message has a fully functional VT50 and VT52 terminal available. Please contact him directly if interested. Thanks. *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 31-Dec-07 at 12:33 Robert D. Houk wrote: > From an old URL I had stashed away some years ago: > > > If you, your company, or your employer is getting ready to dispose > > of old hardware, and before you decide to send ANY such equipment to > > the landfill, please drop me an E-mail and let me know what you have > > and where you are! This holds especially true for military surplus > > radio and electronic equipment or test gear. > >Is this still "active"? > >Are you interested in (to start with) a DEC VT50 and VT52 (both fully >functional the last time I used them) CRT terminals ("glass TTY")? >Free to anyone who wants to come by and pick them up . . . (Nashua, >NH) > >Just wondering (more to the point, cleaning up lots of old email, >URLs, and other notes I've left myself over the ages). > >-RDH *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jan 2 20:18:34 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:18:34 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: All: I have a working Northstar Horizon that I might be looking to sell to make room for other things. I forget the exact configuration, but it has somewhere between 32k and 48k of RAM and a dual-floppy drive system. I know I have a bunch of disks for it (including blanks, maybe 30 or so), and I think I may even have a version of CP/M for it. The body is in fine shape but the wood top is original and in just OK condition. I planned on making a new cover but I never got to it. How much would something like this go for? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 2 20:23:51 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:23:51 -0600 Subject: wrt recent DEC talk References: <486477.10397.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301c84daf$aefc8760$6a00a8c0@JWEST> ChrisM wrote.... > someone posted something about DEC racks. That was me. > I'm not exactly sure what a rack is in this context - didn't > read the posts nor do I intend to Maybe you should have, it would have explained it for you - since I called them Corporate Cabinets in the post ;) Guess it depends on your background, but I've heard them called racks far more often than cabinets. > would think. If anyone's interested, give me a hollur. I had no takers for mine.... three nice racks, some ra81's, and lots of ephemera.... the dumpster has come and gone... Jay From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Jan 2 20:28:23 2008 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:28:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801021929.m02JTmt9009480@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200801021929.m02JTmt9009480@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Commercially? Surely the uVAX 2000 wasn't out until after CP/M had >> had its heyay? If it is non-commercial, I'd be willing to see if my >> uV2K still works just to try it :-) > > Non-commercial of course. :^) This was done in the last 2-3 years. I > forget who buy, but I do remember they suffered a setback when their > developement system failured. That would be me. I started out by making CP/M-68K compilable under NetBSD with GCC, which you can find as "exchange" over on Gaby's website (http://cpm.z80.de/ in the "sources" section). My NetBSD box did, indeed, eat itself (the fan on the north bridge died) and I haven't gotten back to work on it. I was booting over the Ethernet and running out of a RAM disk compiled into the image; didn't get as far as fiddling with the disks. When I rebuilt my NetBSD/x86 box, I used a newer version of NetBSD, which had a newer version of GCC. I never figured out how to either coax the version of GCC I *was* using to compile as a VAX cross-compiler on the new NetBSD or get the new version of the compiler do so. Whenever folks talk about using GCC as a cross-compiler, they claim that all you have to do is "configure --target=whatever" and build it; that has *never* been the case for me. I always wind up having to go into the bowels of the build scripts to try to figure out what it's doing. Since I'm not really a Unix person, it takes me forever to figure it out and then I can't remember how I made it work. I do have a VAXstation 4000/96 here, but the last time I tried NetBSD on it the ethernet was flaky, so couldn't get it running well as a development host, either. I haven't tried a recent release of NetBSD to see if they've fixed the ethernet driver. But, mostly, I got distracted by World of Warcraft, which has been sucking up an awful lot of my time over the last few years... -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 20:51:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:51:42 -0800 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <200801030231.m032ToUe020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801030231.m032ToUe020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477BDD3E.1755.209B6A2F@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:28:23 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Hi, > > Just out of curiosity, is there a technique or device which can do raw > > reads of tracks on ST506/ST412 style hard disk drives similar to how a > > Catweasel can with a floppy disk drive? > > To the best of my knowledge, no - and I've been keeping an ear to the > ground for such things for a while (plus it's a discussion which crops up > here every once in a while, but I don't believe anyone's produced any > working hardware yet). > > The speeds involved (particularly if over-sampling the data) are > reasonably high - enough that it'd be tricky[1] to throw something > together out of OTS TTL parts. That puts such a project more within the > realm of people who know all about interfacing to high speed > microcontrollers, and the pool of available carbon units with the time, > skills and inclination to make such a device is pretty darn small. I'll assume that we're talking about (surviving--and that's a real gotcha) ST506/ST412 interface drives here. Why would a Catweasel- type interface (i.e. pulse time sampling) be even desirable? All the drives used to store digital data that I'm aware of were recorded as MFM, M2FM or some flavor of RLL (2,7 probably being the most common). Controllers differ in small details such as address marks which renders them mutually incompatible, but the data stream has far less variation in encoding than the floppy world. Just give me a programmable data separator and a way to capture that output--I'll figure out what the bits mean. The rated speeds of old ST412-type drives were pretty modest; about 5MHz for MFM and 7.5MHz for RLL, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 2 21:10:29 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:10:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got an Ampro Littleboard that I'm trying to bring back to life. Sometime last year it quit transmitting data on Port A (the console port) so I shelved it until I had time to look at it. I've checked the Z-80 DART with a logic probe and I'm seeing data coming out of Port A (Pin 15 on the DART) when the machine boots up. I check the input pin on the 1488, and get the same sound (the logic probe chirps with each state transition) as I get out of the DART. However, checking the output of the 1488, I don't get anything. Since I don't want to blow my probe apart on 12V, I used an LED to watch the output on the 1488. The LED lights the instant I attach it to the output and doesn't flicker or go out when I reboot the computer to make it send data out the port. The Port should be running at 9600 baud, so I should see at least some flicker activity on the LED if the 1488 is toggling the output pin. Before I spend the time to replace the 1488, I'd like to hear from you folks if the chip is actually bad. Is what I'm seeing indicative of a dead 1488? Thanks all! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 2 21:14:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:14:13 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801030231.m032ToUe020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801030231.m032ToUe020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477BE285.3281.20B006AD@cclist.sydex.com> Somebody wrote (sorry--I lost the original digest:) > Many will disagree with me, but I feel that a floppy based OS that can't > handle non-contiguous files is the worst product ever marked as being an > OS. They're more common than you'd think, particularly in OS for industrial machinery, such as CAD equipment and embroidery machines. Typically, the diskette is written only once for a particular job (usually as a paper tape substitute) and read over and over again. In those cases, it makes perfect sense. Non-contiguous floppy files can be a real drag on the older floppy- based systems that used drives with very slow positioners (now, why does "Micropolis" immediately come to mind?). A scheme that involves contiguous allocation with a fixed number of shots at extending (in case you mis-estimated the size) works well on slow floppy systems. For many single-user applications, it's possible to employ an "allocate the remainder of the disk and truncate on close" scheme. It's also a piece of soup/duck cake to recover files from a floppy using contiguous allocation where the directory and allocation information has been destroyed. (Even better to incorporate recovery information throughout the diskette instead of one track that gets hit over and over again, but that's another story). (Have you ever had to recover a "work" floppy full of Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet data without a directory or FAT?) More related to the topic is that DEC VMS FILES11 had an incredibly complicated floppy file system. Maybe BTOS was worse... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 2 21:33:14 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:33:14 -0500 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 January 2008 22:10, Gene Buckle wrote: > I used an LED to watch the output on the 1488. With an appropriate current-limiting resistor I would assume? > The LED lights the instant I attach it to the output and doesn't flicker or > go out when I reboot the computer to make it send data out the port. The little tester I have for rs232 stuff uses bi-color LEDs, makes it easier to see what's going on. > The Port should be running at 9600 baud, so I should see at least some > flicker activity on the LED if the 1488 is toggling the output pin. > > Before I spend the time to replace the 1488, I'd like to hear from you > folks if the chip is actually bad. Is what I'm seeing indicative of a > dead 1488? Could be, I've certainly replaced my share of those. And put sockets in while I was at it. :-) Just make sure it's getting the proper power supplies, as if one or both of them are missing you won't see proper output then, either. Whenever you're trying to troubleshoot anything, always verify the power supplies first! I forget that myself from time to time, and have regretted doing so. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 2 21:50:26 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:50:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > On Wednesday 02 January 2008 22:10, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I used an LED to watch the output on the 1488. > > With an appropriate current-limiting resistor I would assume? > I actually used a little light bar I have that has 3 12V LED assemblies on it. I ended up using this after my resistor decade box died on me and I couldn't find a 500 Ohm resistor. :) >> The LED lights the instant I attach it to the output and doesn't flicker or >> go out when I reboot the computer to make it send data out the port. > > The little tester I have for rs232 stuff uses bi-color LEDs, makes it easier > to see what's going on. > I've got one of those as well - it never shows a state change. I tried that first. > Could be, I've certainly replaced my share of those. And put sockets in > while I was at it. :-) Just make sure it's getting the proper power > supplies, as if one or both of them are missing you won't see proper output > then, either. > I did check the power first. :) 12V like it's supposed to be. If I have to pull the board, I'll certainly put in a socket. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jan 2 22:05:38 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:05:38 -0500 Subject: reality check (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200801030405.m0345cU6031640@mail.itm-inst.com> At 02:36 PM 1/2/2008, Al Kossow wrote: >ggs said: > > > Folks, there was *no* OS/2 for anything other than the x86 and the PPC. > >Awww, injecting REALITY into typical classiccmp nonsense. Quoting from a Ham Radio list I'm on: >Just to remind everyone December 28th is Massacre of the Innocents Day >(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents) in Spain. It >is now kind of like April fools day with many jokes being played on >people April Fools, folks. YHBT. -Rick From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 2 23:12:22 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:12:22 -0500 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 January 2008 22:50, Gene Buckle wrote: > > On Wednesday 02 January 2008 22:10, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> I used an LED to watch the output on the 1488. > > > > With an appropriate current-limiting resistor I would assume? > > I actually used a little light bar I have that has 3 12V LED assemblies on > it. I ended up using this after my resistor decade box died on me and I > couldn't find a 500 Ohm resistor. :) Why I salvage all sorts of parts... > >> The LED lights the instant I attach it to the output and doesn't flicker > >> or go out when I reboot the computer to make it send data out the port. > > > > The little tester I have for rs232 stuff uses bi-color LEDs, makes it > > easier to see what's going on. > > I've got one of those as well - it never shows a state change. I tried > that first. Well, there ya go then. > > Could be, I've certainly replaced my share of those. And put sockets in > > while I was at it. :-) Just make sure it's getting the proper power > > supplies, as if one or both of them are missing you won't see proper > > output then, either. > > I did check the power first. :) 12V like it's supposed to be. If I have > to pull the board, I'll certainly put in a socket. :) Both plus and minus 12V? You do need both. If there's no change in the LED indicator, and the input that drives it is changing, then yeah, it's probably toast. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 2 23:27:13 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Both plus and minus 12V? You do need both. > I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I go to the effort of pulling the chip and replacing it. > If there's no change in the LED indicator, and the input that drives it is > changing, then yeah, it's probably toast. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 2 23:48:14 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:48:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I go to the effort of pulling > the chip and replacing it. > Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the board that may have died. I'll pull the board tomorrow and test right at the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning whether or not I'd checked the -12v supply! Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I think. :( I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that is near the same size that I can wire in. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jan 3 00:28:39 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:28:39 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801030231.m032ToUf020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801030231.m032ToUf020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42e2a15d1acdf16c53f02dacf684cb71@valleyimplants.com> On Jan 2, 2008, at 6:31 PM, Zane wrote: > I believe the first version or two of Windows NT shipped with x86, > Alpha, > PPC, and MIPS hardware support (at least I think those were the 4 > listed > architectures). Somewhere I should have a box that says it supports > all 4. NT4.0 definitely does - I put it on an AlphaServer once for the novelty (booted it up, said "why bother?" and installed something more DIGITesque and appropriate). From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jan 2 12:30:35 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:30:35 -0800 Subject: wanted "PC Brand" system and "Best Data" 2400 Modem In-Reply-To: <477BF8CF.7040605@tdh.com> References: <477BF8CF.7040605@tdh.com> Message-ID: <477BD84B.9010505@msm.umr.edu> Michael Lee wrote: > This is pretty boring and only borderline "classic", but for > sentimental reasons, I'm looking for a beige box-ish "PC Brand" > computer. Anyone happen to know of, or anything about them or the > company? Figured by some chance, somewhere here knows something and > may even have one stashed away still. > They were sold mail order early 1990. The ones I know of were a > desktop style, 386 or 486. The system itself was not a standard > common AT, but a "PC Brand" laid out chassis and motherboard as far as > I can tell. > > Also, looking for an Internal ISA "Best Data" 2400 modem. A generic > POS, but still I'd like to just get my hands on one. > > There was a PC-2 brand sold in the late 80's till 90's by a company here in the US. The Taiwanese Wugo corporation sold their hardware thru this unit in Santa Ana Ca. The owner had trademared the PC2 or PC-2 and he claimed that was why IBM had to use PS 2 rather than PC2 for their follow on to the original PC and AT. From cc at corti-net.de Wed Jan 2 08:55:22 2008 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:55:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. That just sounds like a tape written in a SCSI TK50 drive attached to a PC. I have no problem in creating a TK50 tape with Solaris 10 on it. Would that mean that it will run on a PDP-11? Anyway, you're three months early for an april joke. Christian From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Jan 2 16:44:20 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:44:20 -0500 Subject: reality check In-Reply-To: <20080102125326.S94061@shell.lmi.net> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> <20080102123442.Q94061@shell.lmi.net> <477BF93F.5080603@brothom.nl> <20080102125326.S94061@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin writes: >> > When the MICROS~1 stooge told me that NT was "all portable C code", he got >> > offended when I told him that THAT is an oxymoron. > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Bert Thomas wrote: >> I'm confused. Are you saying that it is impossible to write portable C code? > > It is certainly POSSIBLE, particularly if you accept conditional > compilation in the definition. > > Many application programs can be quite portable at a source code level. > But, there are very few people around who can do that at an OS level. > > Well, I'd wager that Microsoft must have at least partially succeeded at producing portable C code, since over the course of NT history it's run on x86, MIPS, Alpha, PPC, Amd64 and Itanium platforms. (I even have a build of a full 64-bit version of Whistler for the Alpha lying around...) NT has a pretty decent hardware abstraction layer. Then again all of us here at MICROS~1 (where we love our 8.3 filenames and it's still 1995) are stooges so it must have been Dave Cutler who did all that for us :). Well, back to stealing code from other companies... - Josh From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 3 00:49:14 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:49:14 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <42e2a15d1acdf16c53f02dacf684cb71@valleyimplants.com> References: <200801030231.m032ToUf020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42e2a15d1acdf16c53f02dacf684cb71@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <477C856A.5000604@mdrconsult.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > > On Jan 2, 2008, at 6:31 PM, Zane wrote: > >> I believe the first version or two of Windows NT shipped with x86, Alpha, >> PPC, and MIPS hardware support (at least I think those were the 4 listed >> architectures). Somewhere I should have a box that says it supports >> all 4. > > NT4.0 definitely does - I put it on an AlphaServer once for the novelty > (booted it up, said "why bother?" and installed something more > DIGITesque and appropriate). Well, to be fair, NT was a *lot* faster on AXP than on x86. I have an NT 4.0 Back Office Server disk that has i386, AXP, and PPC install sets on it. I've never run it on PPC; both the systems I've had that would run it, once you flash the NVRAM to ARC(?), you can't flash it back. Doc From rivie at ridgenet.net Thu Jan 3 01:20:27 2008 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 23:20:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080102121331.1004ea58@mail.threedee.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080102121331.1004ea58@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, John Foust wrote: > At 08:50 AM 1/2/2008, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that >> there was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) >>that people were talking about. > > Who else is betting on it being P/OS v2.0 or OS/8? Don't forget that the OS/8 variant for the DECmate II was called OS/278 (because the DECmate II was called the PC-278). -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Jan 3 04:27:59 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:27:59 +0100 Subject: Looking for some 74s124's Message-ID: <477CB8AF.2080506@bluewin.ch> For some modifications on a classic computer I need 1, preferably 3 74s124 ( TTL VCO's) Cannot seem to locate them locally (Zurich, switzerland ) and would rather not pay the 30 UKP each quoted for them by some UK based shop... Anyone with a well stocked spare parts store ? (I tought I had one, but no '124 among the several 1000 IC's I stocked ) Jos Dreesen From bert at brothom.nl Thu Jan 3 04:42:53 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:42:53 +0100 Subject: Looking for some 74s124's In-Reply-To: <477CB8AF.2080506@bluewin.ch> References: <477CB8AF.2080506@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <477CBC2D.3050806@brothom.nl> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > For some modifications on a classic computer I need 1, preferably 3 > 74s124 ( TTL VCO's) Cannot seem to locate them locally (Zurich, > switzerland ) and would rather not pay the 30 UKP each quoted for them > by some UK based shop... > > Anyone with a well stocked spare parts store ? > (I tought I had one, but no '124 among the several 1000 IC's I stocked ) > > Jos Dreesen Farnell has them: http://nl.farnell.com/jsp/Semiconductors/Logic/TEXAS+INSTRUMENTS/SN74S124N/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1155512&_requestid=537421 If you cannot order from Farnell, I would be willing to order it for you. Regards, Bert From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 05:34:32 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 05:34:32 -0600 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Gene, You could use one of the MAX232 chips by Maxim (others, such as analog devices make this too) Pretty cool family of chips - takes a logic level and translates to _+ RS232 levels, using a single 5 or 3.3v supply and a internal charge pump. Only required external parts are the .1 uf charge pump caps... Randy > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:48:14 -0800 > From: geneb at deltasoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Testing a 1488 line driver... > > > I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I go to the effort of pulling > > the chip and replacing it. > > > Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the > board that may have died. I'll pull the board tomorrow and test right at > the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning whether or not I'd checked > the -12v supply! > > Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I think. :( > I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that is near the same size > that I can wire in. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 05:37:12 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 05:37:12 -0600 Subject: Mac OS X (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> from <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: OS X is BSD, with enhancements, but still FreeBSD inside. Randy > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:04:54 -0800 > Subject: Mac OS X (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Sure--and OS X is the 10th version of that system. ;) > > Depends on your definition of "that system". > > Mac OS X is the 10th version of the Mac Operating System. Granted it has > almost nothing to do with earlier versions. > > Mac OS X is the 5th or 6th version (arguements could probably be made for > both) of the NeXT Operating System. > > "Prelude to Rhapsody" was nothing more than OPENSTEP (aka NeXTStep) 4.2, and > the first Rhapsody Developers release ran on x86, with the classic Mac OS 8 > GUI. I forget when that mess known as Aqua came about. While they've toned > it down, I still prefer the classic Mac look and feel. The fact that it ran > on x86 was why I had bene expecting for years for Apple to move to Intel, and why > they were able to do it so quickly. > > Personally I would have preferred for them to base Mac OS X on BeOS rather > than NeXTStep, as I think the OS would have better performance. Of course > if they had, they wouldn't have gotten Steve Jobs back, and without him > returning, I suspect Apple would be long dead. > > Zane > _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Jan 3 07:47:15 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:47:15 -0500 Subject: PC100 update (VT-100 emulator) Message-ID: <200801031253.m03Cratt032142@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, I've just posted an updated PC100 to my site - excepting for bug fixes (please send reports), this should be the last version for a while, as it has reached the point where it does everything I need (and more). Updates in this version: - Implemented slow-scroll as a substitute for smooth-scroll - Improved key mapping function so you can more easily see the existing mappings. - Added a BREAK key (finally) - and programmable break timing. (Removed the BREAK function from the menu) - Programmable ^G and Margin BELL fequency and bell length. - Programmable VT-100 DA response value (mainly so that you. can decide if the terminal indicates AVO present or not). PC100 is a PC based VT-100 emulator which: Runs under DOS, so you can use any old PC as a VT-100 Is more complete than any other DOS VT-100 emulator I've seen, supports everything from the DEC VT-100 documentation (including VT-52 functions) except for: - Double Wide/High characters. - Smooth scroll is implemented as "slow scroll". Supports all VT-100 attributes correctly (VGA). Supports full VT-100 graphics character set (VGA). Keyboard is fully mappable, including Shift, Control, NoScroll, Break, and all other VT-100 key functions. You can use ANY key on the PC keyboard for any VT-100 key. Default layout replicates the DEC keypad to the extent allowed by the physical differences. Additional (non-VT-100 features): Powerful script language lets you automate sessions. File transfers - ASCII is built in, and can link to external programs for other protocols. I include a XMODEM/YMODEM module. 30 programmable function keys with status line labels and up to 64 character transmit strings (I use them for commonly issued commands during debug sessions). Enjoy, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 3 07:15:35 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:15:35 +0000 Subject: Looking for some 74s124's In-Reply-To: <477CBC2D.3050806@brothom.nl> References: <477CB8AF.2080506@bluewin.ch> <477CBC2D.3050806@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <477CDFF7.7060704@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/01/2008 10:42, Bert Thomas wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> For some modifications on a classic computer I need 1, preferably 3 >> 74s124 ( TTL VCO's) Cannot seem to locate them locally (Zurich, >> switzerland ) and would rather not pay the 30 UKP each quoted for them >> by some UK based shop... > Farnell has them: > > http://nl.farnell.com/jsp/Semiconductors/Logic/TEXAS+INSTRUMENTS/SN74S124N/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1155512&_requestid=537421 You did notice those are US stock, and there would be a ?25 surcharge on the order? Would a 74LS624 do? RS Components (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/) have those in stock in the UK, UKP3 each + VAT. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 07:30:43 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:30:43 -0500 Subject: Mac OS X (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0801030530m687b805avcc008086c3d0e5b2@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 3, 2008 6:37 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > OS X is BSD, with enhancements, but still FreeBSD inside. Almost - it's BSD running on top of XNU - which is a derivative of MACH with some bits of BSD thrown in. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 07:52:26 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:52:26 -0600 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <477BDD3E.1755.209B6A2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801030231.m032ToUe020034@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477BDD3E.1755.209B6A2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <477CE89A.2080302@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:28:23 -0600 >> From: Jules Richardson > >> Andrew Lynch wrote: >>> Hi, >>> Just out of curiosity, is there a technique or device which can do raw >>> reads of tracks on ST506/ST412 style hard disk drives similar to how a >>> Catweasel can with a floppy disk drive? >> To the best of my knowledge, no - and I've been keeping an ear to the >> ground for such things for a while (plus it's a discussion which crops up >> here every once in a while, but I don't believe anyone's produced any >> working hardware yet). >> >> The speeds involved (particularly if over-sampling the data) are >> reasonably high - enough that it'd be tricky[1] to throw something >> together out of OTS TTL parts. That puts such a project more within the >> realm of people who know all about interfacing to high speed >> microcontrollers, and the pool of available carbon units with the time, >> skills and inclination to make such a device is pretty darn small. > > I'll assume that we're talking about (surviving--and that's a real > gotcha) ST506/ST412 interface drives here. Indeed - I sorted through my pile of 'reserves' recently and got around a 2/3 mortality rate. On the flipside, it's been a while since I've had a working drive suddenly fail on me - as though long periods of disuse are real killers (perhaps things like seized spindles and heads sticking to platters, rather than logic or head faults). > Why would a Catweasel- > type interface (i.e. pulse time sampling) be even desirable? All the > drives used to store digital data that I'm aware of were recorded as > MFM, M2FM or some flavor of RLL (2,7 probably being the most common). Hmm, I thought I read once that you could throw pretty much anything you wanted at a ST506 drive so long as it was within the various tolerances - is that not true of ST412-type drives? Although I suspect things fall into the same category as for a floppy reader - the choices boil down to either oversampling the data in order to capture bit transitions, or to recording the time between bit transitions (as I believe the catweasel does). > The rated speeds of old ST412-type drives were pretty modest; about > 5MHz for MFM and 7.5MHz for RLL, IIRC. Yep... I was thinking an 8x sampling rate would probably suffice, but with a 7.5MHz raw data rate that's probably a bit much for standard TLL ICs. Recording the elapsed time between bit transitions might be better, though (providing it's still possible to record the worst-case scenarios) cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 3 09:49:52 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:49:52 -0500 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801031049.52879.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 00:48, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I go to the effort of > > pulling the chip and replacing it. > > Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the > board that may have died. I'll pull the board tomorrow and test right at > the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning whether or not I'd checked > the -12v supply! > > Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I think. :( > I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that is near the same size > that I can wire in. Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check for that before assuming it's bad. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 3 09:55:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:55:10 -0500 Subject: reality check In-Reply-To: <477BF93F.5080603@brothom.nl> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> <20080102123442.Q94061@shell.lmi.net> <477BF93F.5080603@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <890210fa07cb7ca6e28c61fc3903655e@neurotica.com> On Jan 2, 2008, at 3:51 PM, Bert Thomas wrote: >> When the MICROS~1 stooge told me that NT was "all portable C code", >> he got >> offended when I told him that THAT is an oxymoron. > > I'm confused. Are you saying that it is impossible to write portable C > code? I sure hope not. I do it every day. I'd hate to think that I'd been living a lie! *sniffle!* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:03:37 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:03:37 -0500 Subject: reality check (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: and what makes you the authority on that anyhow? All I was saying is what it "appeared" to be, and what one other person agreed it "looked" like. it hasn't been authenticated one way or another. Still, even contents of OS/2 on a PDP-11 TK50 is a TRULY bizarre thing! no matter how you slice it. Dan. > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:36:18 -0800 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: reality check (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) > > ggs said: > > > Folks, there was *no* OS/2 for anything other than the x86 and the PPC. > > Awww, injecting REALITY into typical classiccmp nonsense. > > Also, there was NO NT for the 68K, as it REQUIRES little-endian support in > the CPU. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Read what Santa`s been up to! For all the latest, visit asksantaclaus.spaces.live.com! http://asksantaclaus.spaces.live.com/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 10:04:10 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:04:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801031049.52879.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <956483.61808.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Thursday 03 January 2008 00:48, Gene Buckle > wrote: > > > I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I > go to the effort of > > > pulling the chip and replacing it. > > > > Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 > DC-DC converter on the > > board that may have died. I'll pull the board > tomorrow and test right at > > the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning > whether or not I'd checked > > the -12v supply! > > > > Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I > think. :( > > I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that > is near the same size > > that I can wire in. > > Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check > for that before assuming > it's bad. Yeah, like maybe a shorted 1488 :) See what else uses -12v, and work from there. For what it's worth, I've replaced quite a few 1488/1489's - they typically get zapped in terminals when people do stupid things with the serial lines while the terminal is plugged in. I don't know if a failed one can short out the -12v rail though. Never seen it happen specifically, but that doesn't mean it can't. -Ian From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:06:21 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:06:21 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080102121331.1004ea58@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: I am currently OVER 14,000 KM away from the system and tape in question, I won't be back to the "land of the living" until Jan 14th I really should learn to stop posting these things while on vacation ;) Dan. > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 23:20:27 -0800 > From: rivie at ridgenet.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, John Foust wrote: > > At 08:50 AM 1/2/2008, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that > >> there was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) > >>that people were talking about. > > > > Who else is betting on it being P/OS v2.0 or OS/8? > > Don't forget that the OS/8 variant for the DECmate II was called > OS/278 (because the DECmate II was called the PC-278). > -- > roger ivie > rivie at ridgenet.net _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon! http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 3 10:53:21 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:53:21 -0500 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <956483.61808.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <956483.61808.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801031153.21454.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 11:04, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check > > for that before assuming it's bad. > > Yeah, like maybe a shorted 1488 :) I don't recall too many of those with that failure mode... > See what else uses -12v, and work from there. For what it's worth, I've > replaced quite a few 1488/1489's - they typically get zapped in terminals > when people do stupid things with the serial lines while the terminal > is plugged in. Like what sort of stuff? The most I ever saw those fail was one company that had a wire running from one building to another and that used to pick up a lot of transients from lightning. They'd bring those terminals in fairly regularly. > I don't know if a failed one can short out the -12v rail though. Never seen > it happen specifically, but that doesn't mean it can't. I tend to not rule stuff out completely, and avoid surprises. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 3 10:55:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:55:15 -0800 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <200801031609.m03G7cqK027758@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801031609.m03G7cqK027758@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477CA2F3.20775.239FB0FB@cclist.sydex.com> > From: Jules Richardson > Hmm, I thought I read once that you could throw pretty much anything you > wanted at a ST506 drive so long as it was within the various tolerances - > is that not true of ST412-type drives? While that may be true in theory, I'm going to guesstimate that 99 and 44/100 percent of the applications of the ST506/412 out there used either MFM, MMFM (maybe) or 2,7 RLL for recording. While anyone could throw together a bunch of TTL chips to record any old way on a floppy (and did), implementing a hard disk controller with random logic wasn't a simple matter and almost all manufacturers, by the time of the ST506 used commodity solutions. That's not to say that there aren't any bizarre recording schemes out there for ST506s; just that I've never run into one. For example, I've got a few mutually incompatible 2,7 RLL PC-AT style controllers, but they differ more in logical details (address marks, header layout, ECC codes) than they do in modulation methods or clock rate. While it may have been possible to, say, employ FM recording on a ST412, I've never seen it done in practice. There *were* some RLL variants that attempted to push things past 2,7 (Perstor?) on a 412 interface, but they were never very reliable or popular. Did any application of a 506 even use zoned recording (i.e. using a faster data clock on the outer cylinders)? Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 11:20:25 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:20:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801031153.21454.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <186055.17127.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > See what else uses -12v, and work from there. For > what it's worth, I've > > replaced quite a few 1488/1489's - they typically > get zapped in terminals > > when people do stupid things with the serial lines > while the terminal > > is plugged in. > > Like what sort of stuff? The most I ever saw those > fail was one company that > had a wire running from one building to another and > that used to pick up a > lot of transients from lightning. They'd bring > those terminals in fairly > regularly. Mostly plugging/unplugging things with the power on, and once a cable that got cut through by accident. Static electricity zaps too, especially in poorly grounded situations. I fell prey to this once myself. I had my Apple IIe connected to my PC through the serial port. The Apple was running Kermit and acting as a terminal to the PC. I have my chair on one of those plastic mats on the carpet. I got up to go get another cup of coffee, came back, sat down, and wheeled over to the Apple II. I put my hand on the computer, and a spark jumped from my finger to the metal bottom housing of the Apple. It didn't show any signs of a problem, but when I tried typing it didn't work. No input, no output. I fiddled with Kermit, checked connections, etc. Nothing. I looped back the Apple to itself and got nothing. Replacing a 1488 (or 89, don't remember, they were socketed, I just tried one, then the other) on the Super Serial Card got the Apple working again, but it wouldn't talk to the PC. Moved it to the other serial port on the PC and it worked. Looking at the logic board on the PC revealed an RS232 tranciever chip (forget the part number off the top of my head) with a burnt hole in it. Of course, being modern PC crap, this chip is surface mount, with extremely tiny leads. And this is why my PC now no longer has ttyS0. > > I don't know if a failed one can short out the > -12v rail though. Never seen > > it happen specifically, but that doesn't mean it > can't. > > I tend to not rule stuff out completely, and avoid > surprises. :-) Exactly. -Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 3 11:23:14 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:23:14 -0800 Subject: Mac OS X (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> from <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > > Mac OS X is the 10th version of the Mac Operating System. Granted it has >> almost nothing to do with earlier versions. >> >> Mac OS X is the 5th or 6th version (arguements could probably be made for >> both) of the NeXT Operating System. At 5:37 AM -0600 1/3/08, Randy Dawson wrote: >OS X is BSD, with enhancements, but still FreeBSD inside. I think you need to study its lineage, and its various parts. The BSD portion is only one part of the OS. Like it or not, it *is* an updated version of NeXTStep/OPENSTEP. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 3 11:31:03 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:31:03 -0500 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <477CA2F3.20775.239FB0FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801031609.m03G7cqK027758@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477CA2F3.20775.239FB0FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200801031231.03469.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 11:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For example, I've got a few mutually incompatible 2,7 RLL PC-AT style > controllers, but they differ more in logical details (address marks, > header layout, ECC codes) than they do in modulation methods or clock > rate. I always wondered what the differences were that wouldn't let a drive set up on one card be used with another. > While it may have been possible to, say, employ FM recording > on a ST412, I've never seen it done in practice. There *were* some > RLL variants that attempted to push things past 2,7 (Perstor?) on a > 412 interface, but they were never very reliable or popular. I ran a perstor card with a pair of ST251 drives up until I got my first 540M ATA drive, 24/7, for a few years, and they proved quite reliable. The bearing noise of those drives got to be a bit much by the time I shut them down, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Jan 3 11:35:04 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:35:04 -0500 Subject: reality check (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <477BE7B2.8090208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <477D1CC8.1090505@ptdprolog.net> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Still, even contents of OS/2 on a PDP-11 TK50 is a TRULY bizarre thing! no matter how you slice it. > That is certainly true. I'd love to see a directory listing when you get the chance. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 3 11:36:55 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:36:55 -0500 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <186055.17127.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <186055.17127.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801031236.55401.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 12:20, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > See what else uses -12v, and work from there. For what it's worth, I've > > > replaced quite a few 1488/1489's - they typically get zapped in > > > terminals when people do stupid things with the serial lines while the > > > terminal is plugged in. > > > > Like what sort of stuff? The most I ever saw those fail was one company > > that had a wire running from one building to another and that used to pick > > up a lot of transients from lightning. They'd bring those terminals in > > fairly regularly. > > Mostly plugging/unplugging things with the power on, and once a cable that > got cut through by accident. Static electricity zaps too, especially in > poorly grounded situations. I always thought those chips were rather more robust than that. > I fell prey to this once myself. I had my Apple IIe connected to my PC > through the serial port. The Apple was running Kermit and acting as a > terminal to the PC. I have my chair on one of those plastic mats on the > carpet. I got up to go get another cup of coffee, came back, sat down, and > wheeled over to the Apple II. I put my hand on the computer, and a spark > jumped from my finger to the metal bottom housing of the Apple. I hate it when that happens... > It didn't show any signs of a problem, but when I tried typing it didn't > work. No input, no output. I fiddled with Kermit, checked connections, etc. > Nothing. I looped back the Apple to itself and got nothing. Replacing a 1488 > (or 89, don't remember, they were socketed, I just tried one, then the > other) on the Super Serial Card got the Apple working again, but it wouldn't > talk to the PC. Moved it to the other serial port on the PC and it worked. > Looking at the logic board on the PC revealed an RS232 tranciever chip > (forget the part number off the top of my head) with a burnt hole in it. That sounds pretty seriously zapped, all right. > Of course, being modern PC crap, this chip is surface mount, with extremely > tiny leads. And this is why my PC now no longer has ttyS0. I'd disable it (if you can) and plug something else in there mapped to that location. > > > I don't know if a failed one can short out the -12v rail though. Never > > > seen it happen specifically, but that doesn't mean it can't. > > > > I tend to not rule stuff out completely, and avoid surprises. :-) > > Exactly. Stuff tends to want to surprise me anyway, too much of the time. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 3 13:20:52 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:20:52 -0600 Subject: Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> from <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <477D3594.9050300@mdrconsult.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > OS X is BSD, with enhancements, but still FreeBSD inside. Good gods. Is there not a Snopes entry yet for this? Doc From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 13:28:24 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:28:24 +0100 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 05:34:32 -0600 > Subject: RE: Testing a 1488 line driver... > > > Gene, > You could use one of the MAX232 chips by Maxim (others, such as analog devices make this too) > > Pretty cool family of chips - takes a logic level and translates to _+ RS232 levels, > using a single 5 or 3.3v supply and a internal charge pump. > Only required external parts are the .1 uf charge pump caps... > > Randy One comment on that. MAX232 requires 4 cap of 1.0 ?F (tantalum). The "A" version (MAX232A) will work fine with 4 caps of 0.1 ?F. - Henk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:39:29 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:39:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 2, 8 07:10:29 pm Message-ID: > > I've got an Ampro Littleboard that I'm trying to bring back to life. > Sometime last year it quit transmitting data on Port A (the console port) > so I shelved it until I had time to look at it. > > I've checked the Z-80 DART with a logic probe and I'm seeing data coming > out of Port A (Pin 15 on the DART) when the machine boots up. I check the > input pin on the 1488, and get the same sound (the logic probe chirps with > each state transition) as I get out of the DART. However, checking the OK so far [OK, on first reading I read 'DART' as 'LogicDart' -- HP's 'advnaced logic probe'. I now of course realiuse you mean the Z80 serial chip of that neam...] > output of the 1488, I don't get anything. Since I don't want to blow my > probe apart on 12V, I used an LED to watch the output on the 1488. The > LED lights the instant I attach it to the output and doesn't flicker or go > out when I reboot the computer to make it send data out the port. > > The Port should be running at 9600 baud, so I should see at least some > flicker activity on the LED if the 1488 is toggling the output pin. > > Before I spend the time to replace the 1488, I'd like to hear from you > folks if the chip is actually bad. Is what I'm seeing indicative of a > dead 1488? For the output to be correct, 4 things have to be right : 1) The 1488 gets the right input signal(s) 2) The 1488 gets power 3) THe 1488 is working correctly 4) The output must bot be shorted to something else You have checked (1) -- or have you. The 1488 contains 4 drivrs. One is an inverter ,the other 3 are NAND gates. _Often_ the inputs on the latter sections ae strapped together turning them into inverters too. But is that the caser here? Have you made sure there's not another signal being fed into the other input? Now as for (2), check there's +12V and -12V on the right pins of the 1488. And that the ground pin is, indeed, groudned. Remember a supply might be misisng because osmething is overloading it. Maybe a 1488 or a dcoupling capacitor has shorted. Nwo, if this is, indeed, the TxD line, the output shoculd be about -10V when the thing is idle. Check that with a meter. If it isn't, then either the 1488 is playing up, or the output is shorted to something. The voltage you get there might tell you what it could be shorted to. If in dout, remove the chip (or lift the output pin) and see if the votlage on the TxD trace on the PCB goes away -- is it sourced by the 1488 or not? If you get this far, I'd then take one of those bicolour LEDs with 2 wires. The have a red and green LED in inverse parallel inside. COnnect that in series with a suitable reisstor -- 3.3k would proaly do -- between the TxD output of the 1488 and ground. You should see one LED glowing when you turn the machine on./ See if you get flickers from the other one (you can often see the 2 dice inside the package, BTW) when the machine tries to transmit something. Having used that sort of tester on 9600 buad lines in the past, I will say that the flicker is clearly visible. At htis point I'd proably replave the 1488. Put the new on in a socket if there's space for it. I've had them fail in the past... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:42:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:42:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 2, 8 10:33:14 pm Message-ID: > Whenever you're trying to troubleshoot anything, always verify the power= > =20 > supplies first! I forget that myself from time to time, and have regret= > ted=20 > doing so. I'll second that!. And watch out for the power supply that's marginal. I've had machine run fine for half an hour and then fall over in 'interesting ways'. Afgter spending a lot of time doing battle with the logic, I finally find that the +5V line is sitting at 4.4V or something like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:44:29 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:44:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 2, 8 07:50:26 pm Message-ID: > > > On Wednesday 02 January 2008 22:10, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> I used an LED to watch the output on the 1488. > > > > With an appropriate current-limiting resistor I would assume? > > > I actually used a little light bar I have that has 3 12V LED assemblies on > it. I ended up using this after my resistor decade box died on me and I > couldn't find a 500 Ohm resistor. :) I would have thougth a 500R resistor would be a bit on the low side for this, but anyway.... Do you really not have 470R and/or 560R resistors in the junk ox? A couple of 1K in parallel? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:47:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:47:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 2, 8 09:48:14 pm Message-ID: > > > I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I go to the effort of pulling > > the chip and replacing it. > > > Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the DOes this produce the +12V and -12V supplies from the 5V supply, or the -12V supply form an exernal +12V supply, or what? Anyway, I asusme it's a potted module ;-(. I've seen a few that were little PCBs iwth discrete components on them, and those could be repaired. Often if one output is missing, the fault is the rectifier or output capacitor for that output. > board that may have died. I'll pull the board tomorrow and test right at > the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning whether or not I'd checked > the -12v supply! > > Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I think. :( > I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that is near the same size > that I can wire in. At least there's aren't many connections to kludge over... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 15:07:02 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:07:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <477CA2F3.20775.239FB0FB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 3, 8 08:55:15 am Message-ID: > > > From: Jules Richardson > > > Hmm, I thought I read once that you could throw pretty much anything you > > wanted at a ST506 drive so long as it was within the various tolerances - > > is that not true of ST412-type drives? > > While that may be true in theory, I'm going to guesstimate that 99 > and 44/100 percent of the applications of the ST506/412 out there > used either MFM, MMFM (maybe) or 2,7 RLL for recording. While anyone > could throw together a bunch of TTL chips to record any old way on a > floppy (and did), implementing a hard disk controller with random > logic wasn't a simple matter and almost all manufacturers, by the > time of the ST506 used commodity solutions. If by 'commodity solutions' you mean the WD1010 or whatever, then I have to disagree with you. Plenty of manufactuers used their own ASICs in the hard idsk controller, and admittedly most of them did do a fairly normal MFM or RLL2,7 encoidng. But I'll bet at least one didn't! And I've got machiens that use a 8x305 in the hard disk controller. And of course the PERQs ahve a microcoded thing with a 2910 sequencer. It was originally designed to talk to a SA4000, A kludgeoard was added (and the CPU microcode device diivers changed) to talk to a Micropolis 1203, and finally a different kludgeboard and CPU microcode were used to talk to ST412 drives. I would not want to bet that the encoding on that was normal, at least not without doing a lot of tests. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 15:14:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:14:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <186055.17127.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jan 3, 8 09:20:25 am Message-ID: > > Like what sort of stuff? The most I ever saw those > > fail was one company that > > had a wire running from one building to another and > > that used to pick up a > > lot of transients from lightning. They'd bring > > those terminals in fairly > > regularly. > > Mostly plugging/unplugging things with the power on, > and once a cable that got cut through by accident. > Static electricity zaps too, especially in poorly > grounded situations. I fell prey to this once myself. I don't know ahat had happeed to it, but I ought a second-hand HP9817 a couple of years back. The seller 'couldn't find the serial cable', which made me suspicious, but anyway.... When I started working on it, I found the serial port didn't work at all. It didn't even always pass power-on diagnositcs. In the end I had to replace all 4 buffer chips (2 off 1488 and 2 off 1489) and the serial chip itself (8250). Aamzingly niothign else in the machine was damaged. > I had my Apple IIe connected to my PC through the > serial port. The Apple was running Kermit and acting > as a terminal to the PC. I have my chair on one of > those plastic mats on the carpet. I got up to go get > another cup of coffee, came back, sat down, and > wheeled over to the Apple II. I put my hand on the > computer, and a spark jumped from my finger to the > metal bottom housing of the Apple. It didn't show any > signs of a problem, but when I tried typing it didn't > work. No input, no output. I fiddled with Kermit, > checked connections, etc. Nothing. I looped back the > Apple to itself and got nothing. Replacing a 1488 (or > 89, don't remember, they were socketed, I just tried > one, then the other) on the Super Serial Card got the > Apple working again, but it wouldn't talk to the PC. > Moved it to the other serial port on the PC and it > worked. Looking at the logic board on the PC revealed > an RS232 tranciever chip (forget the part number off > the top of my head) with a burnt hole in it. Of > course, being modern PC crap, this chip is surface > mount, with extremely tiny leads. And this is why my > PC now no longer has ttyS0. I'd probably have a go at replacing it. SMD stuff worried me the first time I had to repalce it, after I'd changed the part I wondered what all the fuss was about. The tirck I've found it nto to worry about solder bridges when you're fitting the new chip, but then to clean them up later with soldawick (or whatever you call it). -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:29:46 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:29:46 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477AE18D.7090803@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477AE18D.7090803@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <477D61DA.6030806@gmail.com> madodel wrote: >>> As far as I know the only released platforms for OS/2 were the x86 >>> and the >>> dead at birth OS/2 for PPC. I have never heard of it for any other >>> platform. I'd love to see a directory listing of this PDP-11 >>> version. It >>> is possible this may have been a version of NT which had some >>> rudimentary >>> OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT had >>> support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to believe >>> that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. >>> But I >>> see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. >> >> Weren't there also ports of OS/2 and NT for MIPS? For NT, that one seems >> fairly well-known, but for OS/2 I'm positive it exisited too (at least in >> vaporware). >> >> > > There was never any publicly acknowledged versions of OS/2 beyond the > x86 and PPC releases, and OS/2 for PCC was difficult if not impossible > to actually acquire even when IBM officially released it. The PPC I know for a fact there was a MIPS OS/2. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:32:24 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:32:24 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BABDB.4010409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477D6278.7030503@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> How on earth does something like IBM OS/2 ever get ported to a PDP-11? >> That doesn't seem feasible. I'd have thought that I would have heard >> of such a thing before this thread. > > Just because the tape directory listing can be pulled up and matches an > OS/2 install tree does not mean that it's an "OS/2 port for the PDP"... > surely someone needs to actually look at the tape contents and verify > that it's PDP code before any such claim can be made? Also, how big was the OS/2 1 install? I know for a fact OS/2 2.0 wouldn't fit on a TK50. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:33:17 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:33:17 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BAFD9.50704@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BAFD9.50704@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <477D62AD.9010807@gmail.com> madodel wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> >> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there was >> another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people were >> talking about. > > There was only one OS/2 and that was from IBM, unless you also count the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Be careful with statements like that. They can come back to bite you. Peace... Sridhar From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Jan 3 16:48:59 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:48:59 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477D62AD.9010807@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BAFD9.50704@ptdprolog.net> <477D62AD.9010807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477D665B.3060305@ptdprolog.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > madodel wrote: >> Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> >>> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there >>> was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people >>> were talking about. >> >> There was only one OS/2 and that was from IBM, unless you also count the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Be careful with statements like that. They can come back to bite you. > > Peace... Sridhar > OK what other OS/2 was there? Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Jan 3 16:49:56 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:49:56 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477D61DA.6030806@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477AE18D.7090803@ptdprolog.net> <477D61DA.6030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477D6694.8070100@ptdprolog.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > madodel wrote: >>>> As far as I know the only released platforms for OS/2 were the x86 >>>> and the >>>> dead at birth OS/2 for PPC. I have never heard of it for any other >>>> platform. I'd love to see a directory listing of this PDP-11 >>>> version. It >>>> is possible this may have been a version of NT which had some >>>> rudimentary >>>> OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that NT >>>> had >>>> support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to >>>> believe >>>> that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. >>>> But I >>>> see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. >>> >>> Weren't there also ports of OS/2 and NT for MIPS? For NT, that one >>> seems >>> fairly well-known, but for OS/2 I'm positive it exisited too (at >>> least in >>> vaporware). >>> >>> >> >> There was never any publicly acknowledged versions of OS/2 beyond the >> x86 and PPC releases, and OS/2 for PCC was difficult if not impossible >> to actually acquire even when IBM officially released it. The PPC > > I know for a fact there was a MIPS OS/2. > Are you saying there was a Non-IBM operating system called "OS/2"? Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 3 17:15:46 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:15:46 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477D61DA.6030806@gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477AE18D.7090803@ptdprolog.net> <477D61DA.6030806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477D6CA2.2040506@shiresoft.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> >> >> There was never any publicly acknowledged versions of OS/2 beyond the >> x86 and PPC releases, and OS/2 for PCC was difficult if not >> impossible to actually acquire even when IBM officially released it. >> The PPC > > I know for a fact there was a MIPS OS/2. > Where, when, how? I worked in both the Boca Raton and Austin IBM development labs (where OS/2, AIX and Workplace were developed). The only CPUs supported were ones that were in IBM systems. IBM never shipped a MIPS based system. -- TTFN - Guy From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Jan 3 17:57:02 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:57:02 -0700 Subject: Mailing list search In-Reply-To: <4773FFF1.1060506@gmail.com> References: <200712271847.lBRIlu213177@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> <4773FFF1.1060506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477D764E.8080300@Rikers.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Jay will doubtless be along, but I think (from hazy memory) the > fundamental issues were that the default re-indexing process tries to > re-index everything (rather than just adding 'new' content), the process > often takes more hours than there are available in the day to run, and > search queries return no results whilst the re-indexing is in progress. given appropriate access, I'm sure I could get this working again. I offered to Jay, now I'm offering again. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 3 18:00:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:00:24 -0800 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <200801031800.m03I0E7b029152@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801031800.m03I0E7b029152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477D0698.6231.2524EA1C@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:31:03 -0500 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > I ran a perstor card with a pair of ST251 drives up until I got my first > 540M ATA drive, 24/7, for a few years, and they proved quite reliable. > The bearing noise of those drives got to be a bit much by the time I shut > them down, though. Was this the ARLL (2x MFM capacity) Perstor controller? If that's the case, I'm doubly surprised. On the first count that you got ST251s to perform reliably with it and, on the second count, that you didn't have to use ST251R drives. I seem to recall that the difference between the ST251 and the ST251R was how individual specimens behaved on final QA. They both started off as the same drive, but some performed better than others and so were labeled with the "R" designation. I don't know if it was the bearing noise of the 251s that was more objectionable or the resonance from the copper spring clip at the end of the spindle. On some drives, the spindle brake would fail leading to some really awful squealing noises from the brake pad. My usual solution was to remove the culprit, whichever it was. Cheers, Chuck From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 18:42:38 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:42:38 +0000 Subject: Last call: Wyse WY-55 manual, Introduction to the Sirius 1 Computer - FTGH (UK) Message-ID: Hi list, The above need to find a new home within about a week or they get recycled. Free, but you pay shipping. Will ship to anywhere in the world. Please reply directly to me as list traffic is still a bit funny for me atm. Thanks, Ed. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 19:39:07 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:39:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <200801022233.14591.rtellason@verizon.net> <200801030012.23073.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Gene, You could use one of the MAX232 chips by Maxim (others, such as > analog devices make this too) > > Pretty cool family of chips - takes a logic level and translates to _+ > RS232 levels, using a single 5 or 3.3v supply and a internal charge > pump. Only required external parts are the .1 uf charge pump caps... They are neat, but this is for repairing a 1985 vintage CP/M machine. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 19:43:30 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:43:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801031049.52879.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801031049.52879.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: >> Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the >> board that may have died. I'll pull the board tomorrow and test right at >> the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning whether or not I'd checked >> the -12v supply! >> >> Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I think. :( >> I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that is near the same size >> that I can wire in. > > Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check for that before assuming > it's bad. > I'm not sure I know how to do that. I was just going to pull the converter and power it up by itself to see if I get -12v out of it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 19:45:49 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:45:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <956483.61808.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <956483.61808.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check >> for that before assuming >> it's bad. > > Yeah, like maybe a shorted 1488 :) > > See what else uses -12v, and work from there. For what > it's worth, I've replaced quite a few 1488/1489's - > they typically get zapped in terminals when people do > stupid things with the serial lines while the terminal > is plugged in. I don't know if a failed one can short > out the -12v rail though. Never seen it happen > specifically, but that doesn't mean it can't. > Well as I mentioned earlier, I'm going to pull the converter and test it out by itself. The power supply may need repair as well as it's only putting out 4.65 volts under load. The Littleboard doesn't seem to mind, but it bothers me. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 20:05:35 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:05:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 1) The 1488 gets the right input signal(s) > 2) The 1488 gets power > 3) THe 1488 is working correctly > 4) The output must bot be shorted to something else > > You have checked (1) -- or have you. The 1488 contains 4 drivrs. One is an > inverter ,the other 3 are NAND gates. _Often_ the inputs on the latter > sections ae strapped together turning them into inverters too. But is > that the caser here? Have you made sure there's not another signal being > fed into the other input? > I checked the pins on the 1488 according to how they were shown on the schematic. There are no pins "tied" according to that schematic. > Now as for (2), check there's +12V and -12V on the right pins of the > 1488. And that the ground pin is, indeed, groudned. Remember a supply > might be misisng because osmething is overloading it. Maybe a 1488 or a > dcoupling capacitor has shorted. > It's showing -0.60v for all the -12v test points. I'll know for sure whether or not the converter is good once I can pull and test it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 20:06:13 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:06:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I actually used a little light bar I have that has 3 12V LED assemblies on >> it. I ended up using this after my resistor decade box died on me and I >> couldn't find a 500 Ohm resistor. :) > > I would have thougth a 500R resistor would be a bit on the low side for > this, but anyway.... Do you really not have 470R and/or 560R resistors in > the junk ox? A couple of 1K in parallel? > The highest value I have in my "spare" stuff is 33Ohm. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 3 20:07:24 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>> I didn't check for -12V. I'll do that before I go to the effort of pulling >>> the chip and replacing it. >>> >> Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the > > DOes this produce the +12V and -12V supplies from the 5V supply, or the > -12V supply form an exernal +12V supply, or what? > It generates -12v from the +12v coming from the power supply. > Anyway, I asusme it's a potted module ;-(. I've seen a few that were > little PCBs iwth discrete components on them, and those could be > repaired. Often if one output is missing, the fault is the rectifier or > output capacitor for that output. > I don't know if it's potted or not. If it is indeed dead, I'll crack it open and find out. :) -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 3 20:18:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:18:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080103181617.J78592@shell.lmi.net> There are many hardware incompatabilities between hard disk controllers. But SOME of the stuff that is not readable at a DOS or DEBUG (L, W) level may still be readable by BIOS access. For example, whether sector numbers start with 0 or 1. Remember that the first hard drive thinks that it is number 80h From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 3 20:59:10 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:59:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <477D0698.6231.2524EA1C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801031800.m03I0E7b029152@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477D0698.6231.2524EA1C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080103185718.U80463@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Was this the ARLL (2x MFM capacity) Perstor controller? If that's > the case, I'm doubly surprised. On the first count that you got > ST251s to perform reliably with it and, on the second count, that you > didn't have to use ST251R drives. It may depend on how we define "reliably". Remember when Steve Gibson's Spinrite (not the current edition, now) would, by default return to use tracks that were on the manufacturer's bad track list, if they passed Spinrite's "tests". From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 21:16:45 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:16:45 -0500 Subject: S-44 8085 homebrew computer Message-ID: <004301c84e80$3c83f340$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Did anyone get a chance to save the "The Simple Computer II Project" homebrew computer pages before they went away? It used to be here: http://www.interparse.com/microcomputer/simpleii.html for some reason it has disappeared. I tried the internet archive and it found a copy but it is missing graphics. http://web.archive.org/web/20070702182520/http://www.interparse.com/microcom puter/simpleii.html If anyone has a copy, please send me one or post a link. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From cctech at vax-11.org Thu Jan 3 22:09:21 2008 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:09:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: wrt recent DEC talk In-Reply-To: <002301c84daf$aefc8760$6a00a8c0@JWEST> References: <486477.10397.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <002301c84daf$aefc8760$6a00a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Jay West wrote: > ChrisM wrote.... >> someone posted something about DEC racks. > That was me. > >> I'm not exactly sure what a rack is in this context - didn't >> read the posts nor do I intend to > Maybe you should have, it would have explained it for you - since I called > them Corporate Cabinets in the post ;) Guess it depends on your background, > but I've heard them called racks far more often than cabinets. > > >> would think. If anyone's interested, give me a hollur. > I had no takers for mine.... three nice racks, some ra81's, and lots of > ephemera.... the dumpster has come and gone... > > Jay > Oh goodie... That means my RA81's are rarer and more valuable now... If it wasn't so much work I'd break them down for the aluminum... Clint From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 22:58:20 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:58:20 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector Message-ID: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with the 22/44 pin edge connectors? I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably under $10 a piece. I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance! Andrew Lynch From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Fri Jan 4 00:03:35 2008 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:03:35 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200801040603.m0463Y7S000241@ms-smtp-02.nyroc.rr.com> Hi, How many are you looking for? I have some Vector DIP Plugbord 3662-5 (tan) and Vector 3662 (blue) boards mate w/receptacle R644 or R644-3 At 11:58 PM 1/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi, > >Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with the >22/44 pin edge connectors? > >I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably under >$10 a piece. > >I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be much >appreciated. > >Thank you in advance! > >Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 00:57:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:57:32 -0800 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477D685C.24331.26A2CF74@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:07:02 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > If by 'commodity solutions' you mean the WD1010 or whatever, then I have > to disagree with you. Plenty of manufactuers used their own ASICs in the > hard idsk controller, and admittedly most of them did do a fairly normal > MFM or RLL2,7 encoidng. But I'll bet at least one didn't! The latter is what I said--and meant. "Unique" encoding schemes, such as one finds on floppies (zoned recording, CLV, various flavors of GCR, FM, whatever you want to call the Apple II flavor of GCR, "mixed" formats, such as the RX02, etc.) were comparitively rare. MFM and RLL 2,7 were overwhelmingly the rule on the ST506 and ST412 class drives. I mentioned the Perstor with ARLL, but it was hardly the rule. > And I've got machiens that use a 8x305 in the hard disk controller. And there are plenty of systems that use the 8x30x and the WD1000 series chipsets (the WD1001 being one of the boards). Still MFM. > A kludgeoard was added (and the CPU microcode device diivers changed) > to talk to a Micropolis 1203, and finally a different kludgeboard and > CPU microcode were used to talk to ST412 drives. I would not want to > bet that the encoding on that was normal, at least not without doing a > lot of tests. I'd be willing to wager that it was MFM or M2FM of some flavor, however. I've got an SA4000 and controller that's implemented in TTL with nothing more complex than a few 74LS181s and a few ROMs. It's still MFM recording. My point was that with a decent data separator for the common modulation methods and a simple deserializer, you'd have all you'd need to cover the overwhelming majority of ST412-type drives. No need for fancy transition-time recording as in the Catweasel (where one often can spend a great amount time staring at a histogram and pulse-time list trying to figure out how clever the designers of a particular floppy format were.) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 01:05:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:05:59 -0800 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477D6A57.18877.26AA8BFF@cclist.sydex.com> If it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'd start by unsoldering the DC-DC converter that supplies -12 and temporarily replace it with a 9v battery to see if the converter was at fault. Check for a dead short before you hook the battery in... FWIW, I've blown 1488/89s by dragging my feet across a carpet to generate sufficient potential to cause a small arc when I plugged in the comms cable (the far end wasn't yet connected). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 4 01:14:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:14:01 -0800 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477D6C39.5984.26B1E632@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:59:10 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin > It may depend on how we define "reliably". > > Remember when Steve Gibson's Spinrite (not the current edition, now) > would, by default return to use tracks that were on the manufacturer's bad > track list, if they passed Spinrite's "tests". He wasn't the only one to try that nonsense. I recall a fellow proudly proclaiming that he didn't bother with the flaw map printed on each drive as "most of those flaws are fake anyway". Cheers, Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Thu Jan 3 12:35:50 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:35:50 -0800 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? Message-ID: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com> I'm assuming that this is on-topic as the equipment I wish to use this in is microprocessor controlled (68000) piece of test equipment - the Fluke 9100 series of microprocessor test fixtures. What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is a cost effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash being an optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost effective solution... I've only found one solution (Adtron S35FA) on line with a bit of hunting, but not reading the current magazines I'm probably overlooking a number of possibilities. Anyone have suggestions? Thanks, John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ron at raspet.com Thu Jan 3 15:37:40 2008 From: ron at raspet.com (Ron Raspet) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:37:40 -0500 Subject: 10 MHz to 5 MHZ conversion Message-ID: <002101c84e50$e0ee4140$a2cac3c0$@com> Dear Bruce, I have a Cushman 6-A service monitor. The 5 MHZ crystal oven assembly has died. Do you have a source for the 10 MHZ crystal and how did you provide both the TTL and sine 5 MHZ for the Cushman instrument. I am retired and I would like to keep the 6-A working without spending a lot f dollars. Thanks for your help!! Ron Raspet N3JLF No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1208 - Release Date: 1/3/2008 3:52 PM From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 4 02:29:59 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:29:59 +0000 Subject: Last call: Wyse WY-55 manual, Introduction to the Sirius 1 Computer - FTGH (UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 00:42 +0000, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hi list, > > The above need to find a new home within about a week or they get recycled. > > Free, but you pay shipping. Will ship to anywhere in the world. > > Please reply directly to me as list traffic is still a bit funny for me atm. Go on then. I have fond memories of the Sirius, since it was one of the first "serious" computers I used, waaaay back when I was in secondary school. Work out the postage and I'll paypal it to you. Gordon JC Pearce, 24, Orchy Crescent Westerton Glasgow G61 1RE Thanks, Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 4 03:56:25 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:56:25 +0000 Subject: Last call: Wyse WY-55 manual, Introduction to the Sirius 1 Computer - FTGH (UK) In-Reply-To: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> References: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: <1199440585.10103.0.camel@elric> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 08:29 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 00:42 +0000, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > Hi list, > > > > The above need to find a new home within about a week or they get recycled. > > > > Free, but you pay shipping. Will ship to anywhere in the world. > > > > Please reply directly to me as list traffic is still a bit funny for me atm. > > Go on then. I have fond memories of the Sirius, since it was one of the That's annoying. I did "Reply to Sender", but the list munges all possible Reply-To: headers. Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 05:45:35 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:45:35 -0500 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <477D0698.6231.2524EA1C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801031800.m03I0E7b029152@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477D0698.6231.2524EA1C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200801040645.35779.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 19:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:31:03 -0500 > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > > > I ran a perstor card with a pair of ST251 drives up until I got my first > > 540M ATA drive, 24/7, for a few years, and they proved quite reliable. > > The bearing noise of those drives got to be a bit much by the time I shut > > them down, though. > > Was this the ARLL (2x MFM capacity) Perstor controller? I'm not really sure at this point which one it was, but probably, since I was getting a total of around 156MB out of those two drives. > If that's the case, I'm doubly surprised. On the first count that you got > ST251s to perform reliably with it and, on the second count, that you > didn't have to use ST251R drives. > > I seem to recall that the difference between the ST251 and the ST251R > was how individual specimens behaved on final QA. They both started > off as the same drive, but some performed better than others and so > were labeled with the "R" designation. That "R" meaning RLL-rated? It's my recollection from much HD discussion back then that the major difference in RLL-rated drives was the bandwidth of one part, though memory is a bit hazy about which part that was -- the data separator maybe? The numbers 5 MHz vs. 7.5 MHz come to mind also. > I don't know if it was the bearing noise of the 251s that was more > objectionable or the resonance from the copper spring clip at the end > of the spindle. I've taken those off on occasion. :-) > On some drives, the spindle brake would fail leading to some really awful > squealing noises from the brake pad. My usual solution was to remove the > culprit, whichever it was. I think I've encountered that brake pad noise once, too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 05:47:36 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:47:36 -0500 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <200801031049.52879.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200801040647.36251.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 20:43, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Checked it. -0.60v There's a Elpac/TDC CB-3811 DC-DC converter on the > >> board that may have died. I'll pull the board tomorrow and test right > >> at the legs of the device. Thanks for questioning whether or not I'd > >> checked the -12v supply! > >> > >> Finding a replacement is gonna be a stone b*tch I think. :( > >> I may have to go to another DC-DC converter that is near the same size > >> that I can wire in. > > > > Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check for that before > > assuming it's bad. > > I'm not sure I know how to do that. I was just going to pull the > converter and power it up by itself to see if I get -12v out of it. That's exactly how you do that. Just disconnect that output and see what's there. If it gets close to what you could call normal, then there's some other problem, like a shorted bypass cap or similar. I never used to see all that many problems with shorted caps, but discussions on other lists (tek scopes particularly) seem to indicate that it's getting to be a common problem these days. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 4 05:51:30 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:51:30 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 January 2008 23:58, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with the > 22/44 pin edge connectors? > > I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably under > $10 a piece. > > I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be much > appreciated. I too would be interested in these. They used to be really common, and could even be found at radio shack for a while, but not these days... Small prototyping boards in general are of interest to me, with or without the edge connector for that matter. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From onymouse at garlic.com Thu Jan 3 08:36:03 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 06:36:03 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after > it was a dead OS elsewhere - > [snipsnip] ) > It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, somehow. OS/2 is used for ASM semiconductor systems as well as a few others. Apparently there's nothing better on the shelf. It certainly seems that it is the most stable commercial OS to build a critical, real-time system upon, a necessity for equipment that must run reliably, continuously for ten years or so. In the equipment I was responsible for (read "got to play with"), there has never been an OS failure since they were first powered up seven years ago. Every MS based system has an OS failure at least once a month, typically at a critical process step, sometimes resulting in some very costly mechanical carnage. == jd From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Fri Jan 4 06:27:57 2008 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:27:57 +0000 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? In-Reply-To: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com> References: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com> Message-ID: On 3 Jan 2008, at 18:35, John Robertson wrote: > ... > What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is > a cost effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash > being an optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost > effective solution... > > I've only found one solution (Adtron S35FA) on line ... I'm not immediately able to find pricing on the Adtron product, but IDE-SCSI adaptors - to allow you to connact an (E)IDE hard-drive to a SCSI bus are readily available. CF flash memory cards "talk EIDE" and again simple pin-out convertors are readily available - and also very cheap - or you can make your own. Stroller. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:53:50 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:53:50 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> Message-ID: <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> jd wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after >> it was a dead OS elsewhere - >> [snipsnip] ) >> > > It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned > getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, > somehow. Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. > Apparently there's nothing better on the shelf. I'd heard that too, but I don't know how much of it's folklore. I suspect these days they all just run MS Windows, and any increase in failure rate is seen to be cheaper to handle than trying to support a 'dead' OS. (Although I'd expect a BSD variant to be more reliable, have a smaller footprint, be equal to Windows in support terms, and lend itself better to the embedded nature of an ATM) Are there any vintage ATM collectors on the list? ;) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:58:29 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:58:29 -0600 Subject: Is there a Catweasel like device for hard disks? In-Reply-To: <477D685C.24331.26A2CF74@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801040605.m0465P1L035359@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477D685C.24331.26A2CF74@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <477E3B85.30508@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My point was that with a decent data separator for the common > modulation methods and a simple deserializer, you'd have all you'd > need to cover the overwhelming majority of ST412-type drives. Even ones suffering from errors? But yep, if a "cope with 99% of drives" solution is cheap or relatively easy to do, then it's definitely a worthwhile project - ST506/412 drives are not getting any younger. It'd still be useful to have something which would aid in reading that other 1%, but as it's more complex to do, perhaps it's best as a separate project. cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 09:10:10 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <658429.73979.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Thursday 03 January 2008 23:58, Andrew Lynch > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive > prototype boards with the > > 22/44 pin edge connectors? > > > > I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN > boards preferably under > > $10 a piece. > > > > I have looked but have not been able to find any. > Any hints would be much > > appreciated. > > I too would be interested in these. They used to > be really common, and > could even be found at radio shack for a while, but > not these days... > > Small prototyping boards in general are of interest > to me, with or without > the edge connector for that matter. In general, a lot of proto boards seem to be hard to find cheaply. I typically buy Radio Shack's largest one with copper ringed holes (it's like 4 1/2 x 6 or something) and use that for most things. For edge connectors cheapy, there's a couple of things I've done. The easiest is to just find a junk PC ISA card with all the gold fingers present, and cut the bottom of the board off, leaving space on the edges and top. A dremel tool is your friend. File away any traces you don't want, and screw it to the proto board, and run wires to the fingers. Some ISA cards (AST RAM pack and I/O boards, IIRC) have all the fingers as well as a dual row of through plated holes, one hole for each finger. All you have to do is cut the bottom of the board off, clean the solder out of all the holes, and connect it to your proto board with a dual row header. Another thing that works, is the "fingers" from old Macintosh Performa all-in-one computers. They plugged into the back of the hard drive and CDROM drive, and had card edge finger connectors to plug into the wiring harness in the computer. Solder a dual row, right angle header onto your board, plug in one of these connectors (trimmed to fit) and glue it to the board. Not the highest quality fingers, but it works OK. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 4 09:44:20 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:44:20 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6b86442719b1c4799df50e096b72d6ce@neurotica.com> On Jan 4, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with >> the >> 22/44 pin edge connectors? >> >> I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably >> under >> $10 a piece. >> >> I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be >> much >> appreciated. > > I too would be interested in these. They used to be really common, > and > could even be found at radio shack for a while, but not these days... > > Small prototyping boards in general are of interest to me, with or > without > the edge connector for that matter. Same here; if anyone finds a good source for decent prototyping boards, please post it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:58:10 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:58:10 -0600 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <6b86442719b1c4799df50e096b72d6ce@neurotica.com> References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> <6b86442719b1c4799df50e096b72d6ce@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Sandy's Electronics here in Reno has a bunch $1.00 each, these are the vellman boards and some telecom boards. 20 slot backplanes to match too. www.sandyselectronicparts.com Randy > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:44:20 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector > > On Jan 4, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with > >> the > >> 22/44 pin edge connectors? > >> > >> I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably > >> under > >> $10 a piece. > >> > >> I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be > >> much > >> appreciated. > > > > I too would be interested in these. They used to be really common, > > and > > could even be found at radio shack for a while, but not these days... > > > > Small prototyping boards in general are of interest to me, with or > > without > > the edge connector for that matter. > > Same here; if anyone finds a good source for decent prototyping > boards, please post it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 10:18:27 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:18:27 -0500 Subject: S-44 8085 homebrew computer Message-ID: <007001c84eed$70d5e1e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Some kind soul took mercy on me and sent me the 2MB ZIP file. If anyone wants it please contact me offline. Thanks! Andrew Lynch > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:17 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: S-44 8085 homebrew computer > > Hi, > > Did anyone get a chance to save the "The Simple Computer II Project" > homebrew computer pages before they went away? > > It used to be here: > > http://www.interparse.com/microcomputer/simpleii.html > > for some reason it has disappeared. > > I tried the internet archive and it found a copy but it is missing > graphics. > > http://web.archive.org/web/20070702182520/http://www.interparse.com/microc > omputer/simpleii.html > > If anyone has a copy, please send me one or post a link. > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 10:46:38 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:46:38 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22-44 pin edge connector Message-ID: <00ad01c84ef1$60a107b0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Sandy's Electronics here in Reno has a bunch $1.00 each, these are the vellman boards and some telecom boards. 20 slot backplanes to match too. www.sandyselectronicparts.com Randy > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:44:20 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector > > On Jan 4, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with > >> the > >> 22/44 pin edge connectors? > >> > >> I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably > >> under > >> $10 a piece. > >> > >> I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be > >> much > >> appreciated. > > > > I too would be interested in these. They used to be really common, > > and > > could even be found at radio shack for a while, but not these days... > > > > Small prototyping boards in general are of interest to me, with or > > without > > the edge connector for that matter. > > Same here; if anyone finds a good source for decent prototyping > boards, please post it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > -----REPLY----- Thanks Randy! Andrew Lynch From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:54:00 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:54:00 -0600 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable Message-ID: <51ea77730801040854r576bad8au858d8f35afd034ab@mail.gmail.com> Got my SGI Crimson up and running on serial console, and I've got an old SGI monitor sitting around, but I guess I gave away all my cables. Anyone have such a cable in their junk bins? Only ones on ebay now are from the dealer-gougers. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 4 11:04:16 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:04:16 -0600 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> <6b86442719b1c4799df50e096b72d6ce@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <477E6710.1070300@jbrain.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Sandy's Electronics here in Reno has a bunch $1.00 each, these are the vellman boards and some telecom boards. 20 slot backplanes to match too. > www.sandyselectronicparts.com > Randy > I just checked, but I can;t seem to find via their search engine. DO you have links? Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 4 11:30:19 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:30:19 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <90cd05d4b0ef2f6765c26577f9363a82@neurotica.com> On Jan 4, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'd heard that too, but I don't know how much of it's folklore. I > suspect these days they all just run MS Windows, and any increase in > failure rate is seen to be cheaper to handle than trying to support a > 'dead' OS. ...because somehow products require more support once the company discontinues the product. I will never understand the suit mentality. And I think I prefer it that way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Jan 4 12:00:54 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:00:54 +0000 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801040854r576bad8au858d8f35afd034ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/1/08 16:54, "Jason T" wrote: > Got my SGI Crimson up and running on serial console, and I've got an > old SGI monitor sitting around, but I guess I gave away all my cables. > Anyone have such a cable in their junk bins? Only ones on ebay now > are from the dealer-gougers. I use mine with an "ordinary" (i.e. Non-SGI branded) 21" CRT with a 5xBNC-VGA cable. One of the sync leads (H-sync I think) is redundant, of course. Suitable items found just now on ebay.co.uk: 270198917710 - 5xBNC-VGA Cable @ ?4.99 280189417939 - 21" Dell CRT Monitor @ ?19.99 Not a bad setup for ?25! Just by way of an example of course - I realise you're not in Grimsby, UK ;-) Would the Sun 13W3-BNC leads not work? I know there's a subtle difference between Sun and SGI monitor cables, can't quite remember what it is. They seem cheap and plentiful enough: 230206161455 - Sun13W3-4xBNC @ ?7.99. -Austin. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jan 4 13:36:51 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:36:51 -0300 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? References: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com> Message-ID: <00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> > I'm assuming that this is on-topic as the equipment I wish to use this in > is microprocessor controlled (68000) piece of test equipment - the Fluke > 9100 series of microprocessor test fixtures. Wow!!! Great!!! > What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is a cost > effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash being an > optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost effective solution... What is the address of this list? Got interested :oD > Anyone have suggestions? Do you know how simple SCSI and SCSI-2 is??? Why not a simple microcontroller (AVR!!! AVR!!! connected to a SCSI bus and to some cheap-serial-memory like SD/MMC cards? It can be done easily and cheaply, and you would have the advantage of (pseudo?)FAT compatibility. Or at least device image distribuition thru the net. BASCOM (www.mcselec.com) has a nice BASIC compiler for AVRs and good examples of SD interfacing. Maybe worth a look :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza From Mark at Misty.com Fri Jan 4 12:40:04 2008 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:40:04 -0500 Subject: offer - VAX 4000/500 cluster Message-ID: <20080104184003.GA13000@lucky.misty.com> Hi, Due to lack of space, I've got to part with my VAX 4000/500 cluster. It consists of a pair of VAX 4000/500 servers, and a third identical-looking DSSI BA disk cabinet. I was last using this as a single system, and had moved a memory board from one node to the other, but as far as I know all works. I'm including the DSSI cables. This includes quite a few DSSI disks. This also includes a KZQSA SCSI card, external SCSI cdrom drive, and OpenVMS VAX media. This also includes several HSD30 DSSI RAID controllers, for connecting SCSI disks, though I have neither the SCSI cables nor disks to go with these. I don't think this is worth a lot, but was hoping for something useful but smaller in trade. Of interest would be an IBM p Series server, *recent* Sun or Cisco gear, or possibly PDP8/e printed service manuals and/or spare cards. This is available for local pickup only, near Plymouth Meeting, PA, USA. Please e-mail me if interested. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://mail-cleaner.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:42:31 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:42:31 -0600 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801040854r576bad8au858d8f35afd034ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801041042o773bb322ud71d706808856d1b@mail.gmail.com> I did see the Sun cable with the 4 BNC on US ebay and thought the same. I'm not sure if that fourth lead is relevant. My alternative is to haul an LCD panel down to the Crimson and start experimenting with various 13W3-VGA adaptors. Still steamed at myself for giving away cables for equipment I was keeping! On 1/4/08, Austin Pass wrote: > On 4/1/08 16:54, "Jason T" wrote: > > > Got my SGI Crimson up and running on serial console, and I've got an > > old SGI monitor sitting around, but I guess I gave away all my cables. > > Anyone have such a cable in their junk bins? Only ones on ebay now > > are from the dealer-gougers. > > I use mine with an "ordinary" (i.e. Non-SGI branded) 21" CRT with a > 5xBNC-VGA cable. One of the sync leads (H-sync I think) is redundant, of > course. > > Suitable items found just now on ebay.co.uk: > > 270198917710 - 5xBNC-VGA Cable @ ?4.99 > 280189417939 - 21" Dell CRT Monitor @ ?19.99 > > Not a bad setup for ?25! Just by way of an example of course - I realise > you're not in Grimsby, UK ;-) > > Would the Sun 13W3-BNC leads not work? I know there's a subtle difference > between Sun and SGI monitor cables, can't quite remember what it is. They > seem cheap and plentiful enough: > > 230206161455 - Sun13W3-4xBNC @ ?7.99. > > -Austin. > > > > > -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Jan 4 13:03:09 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:03:09 +0000 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801041042o773bb322ud71d706808856d1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/1/08 18:42, "Jason T" wrote: > I did see the Sun cable with the 4 BNC on US ebay and thought the > same. I'm not sure if that fourth lead is relevant. > > My alternative is to haul an LCD panel down to the Crimson and start > experimenting with various 13W3-VGA adaptors. > > Still steamed at myself for giving away cables for equipment I was keeping! Still, at least you've got one of the finest and most interesting computers ever sold by SGI to cheer you up! I love mine - it's the pride of my collection and adds real presence to my office, sat beneath my MacPro. It also doubles as a magnificent space heater in the winter months!! -Austin. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 4 13:04:56 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:04:56 -0600 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? In-Reply-To: <00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> References: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com> <00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <477E8358.2020803@jbrain.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I'm assuming that this is on-topic as the equipment I wish to use >> this in is microprocessor controlled (68000) piece of test equipment >> - the Fluke 9100 series of microprocessor test fixtures. > > Wow!!! Great!!! > >> What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is a >> cost effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash >> being an optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost effective >> solution... > > What is the address of this list? Got interested :oD > >> Anyone have suggestions? > > Do you know how simple SCSI and SCSI-2 is??? > > Why not a simple microcontroller (AVR!!! AVR!!! connected to a SCSI > bus and to some cheap-serial-memory like SD/MMC cards? It can be done > easily and cheaply, and you would have the advantage of (pseudo?)FAT > compatibility. Or at least device image distribuition thru the net. > BASCOM (www.mcselec.com) has a nice BASIC compiler for AVRs and good > examples of SD interfacing. Maybe worth a look :o) > If this develops into a project, I'd like to know. I have a need to do some solid state SCSI. I also know AVRs and FAT FS. Jim From trag at io.com Fri Jan 4 15:32:49 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:32:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? In-Reply-To: <200801041800.m04I0WQL042928@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801041800.m04I0WQL042928@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4882.209.163.133.242.1199482369.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:27:57 +0000 > From: Stroller > > On 3 Jan 2008, at 18:35, John Robertson wrote: >> ... >> What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is >> a cost effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash >> being an optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost >> effective solution... >> >> I've only found one solution (Adtron S35FA) on line ... > > I'm not immediately able to find pricing on the Adtron product, but > IDE-SCSI adaptors - to allow you to connact an (E)IDE hard-drive to a > SCSI bus are readily available. CF flash memory cards "talk EIDE" and > again simple pin-out convertors are readily available - and also very > cheap - or you can make your own. To get specific with part numbers... Acard makes the Acard 7720 in a few varieties. In this case you'd want the 7720U probably for its narrow interface (7720UW has 68 pin interface and there are LVDS flavors as well). This has a narrow (50 pin) single ended SCSI interface on the upstream side and a regular 3.5" IDE (as opposed to notebook drive) interface on the downstream side. It retails for about $70, but there's a fellow selling a boat-load of used ones on Ebay for $30 each. I have some new ones I'm selling for $39 which include the little power splitter/adapter and a nice instruction sheet. :-) Once you have the 7720U, you have two directions you can go. Go as you planned and get any of the inexpensive IDE<=>CF Card adapters, which typically cost well under $10. Geeks.com has an assortment for $5 each with a dual CF card adapter for $7.50 in their "controllers/adapters" section. The other direction you could go is to get a 2.5" to 3.5" drive adapter for about $5 (again at geeks.com, there's a cheaper one, but the $5 one comes with rails as well as circuit board) and add any of the 2.5" IDE hard drives you can find littering the ground. There can be gotchas depending on your equipment. One resourceful fellow in Australia used an IDE to CF card adapter in the PowerBook 150, IIRC, only to find that the IDE in the PB150 interpreted the device ID of CF improperly (built before or around time spec was finalized) and would not recognize it. His solution was to build an adapter board to recognize and intercept the ID transaction and then let all other transactions pass. As I mentioned, a resourceful fellow. The point being, there are possible compatibility problems depending on the equipment being used. Jeff Walther From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:20:47 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:20:47 -0600 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801041042o773bb322ud71d706808856d1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801041420p3a03a691j1ed112bc9b08cdd3@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 1:03 PM, Austin Pass wrote: > Still, at least you've got one of the finest and most interesting computers > ever sold by SGI to cheer you up! I love mine - it's the pride of my > collection and adds real presence to my office, sat beneath my MacPro. It > also doubles as a magnificent space heater in the winter months!! Indeed, it is mighty pretty too! Mine is the "server" model, going by the label on top, yet it has a 13W3 graphics card. I believe the Server had no gfx at all? Now inside the door I also found an "Elan" tag with the glue worn off, so I'm guessing it may have gotten a field upgrade, video card and label. I've got a dead Iris 410/VGXT downstairs. Wonder if I can transplant the gfx board from that into the Crimson? Anyone tried to use external SCSI on a Crimson (or Iris?) Mine has all the drive bays full (3 HDD and a 150mb tape) and I'm trying to get a CDROM hooked up temporarily so I can reset the root pw on the drive. There are two external SCSI connectors. If I attach to the left one, I lose my hard drives (and still no cdrom seen in 'hinv.') If I attach to the right one, nothing. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 4 16:47:13 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:47:13 -0700 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:20:47 -0600. <51ea77730801041420p3a03a691j1ed112bc9b08cdd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730801041420p3a03a691j1ed112bc9b08cdd3 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > Indeed, it is mighty pretty too! Mine is the "server" model, going by > the label on top, yet it has a 13W3 graphics card. I believe the > Server had no gfx at all? As I understand it, that's correct. But on these systems you can add a graphics card to it. Is yours marked "Jurassic Classic"? Mine is :-) > I've got a dead Iris 410/VGXT downstairs. Wonder if I can transplant > the gfx board from that into the Crimson? Oh, a VGXT. I've wanted one of those in my collection as its the first SGI machine with hardware texture. I'm still fuzzy on what the difference is between a Crimson and a VGXT, aside from the graphics bits. > Anyone tried to use external SCSI on a Crimson (or Iris?) I haven't tried it yet on any of my machines, but I'd be interested to hear the results of debugging your issue if you get it working. Is it possible that the SCSI device IDs are fixed and that's why connecting an external device makes your HD disappear? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 16:53:58 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:53:58 -0600 Subject: SGI Crimson (was: need 13W3 cable) Message-ID: <51ea77730801041453k2f83709dnb40ff9b5f0ec8c57@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 4:47 PM, Richard wrote: > Is yours marked "Jurassic Classic"? Mine is :-) Nope :( This one was meant to be a no-gfx server, I guess. Even the hostname on the installed Irix 6.2 is "webserver." > Is it possible that the SCSI device IDs are fixed and that's why > connecting an external device makes your HD disappear? The hdd sleds all have external pushbutton-selectable IDs. Not sure about the tape drive. My next step is to take one of the non-boot drives out of its sled and put a (hopefully compatable) CD-Rom drive in there. I want to see what's on these drives! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 4 17:10:02 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 3, 8 06:05:35 pm Message-ID: > > > 1) The 1488 gets the right input signal(s) > > 2) The 1488 gets power > > 3) THe 1488 is working correctly > > 4) The output must bot be shorted to something else > > > > You have checked (1) -- or have you. The 1488 contains 4 drivrs. One is an > > inverter ,the other 3 are NAND gates. _Often_ the inputs on the latter > > sections ae strapped together turning them into inverters too. But is > > that the caser here? Have you made sure there's not another signal being > > fed into the other input? > > > I checked the pins on the 1488 according to how they were shown on the > schematic. There are no pins "tied" according to that schematic. 3 of the 4 sections of the 1488 are NAND gates with 2 inputs. Those 2 inputs must both be drivein somehow (they should npt be left floating). Basically there are 3 things you can do : 1) Link then together, and to the logic signal (for example TxD from the Z80-DART), thus turning that section of the 1488 into a NOT gate with RS232 level outputs. This is the most common thing to do. 2) Connect the logic signal to one of the inputs, connect the other input to +5V, maybe through a resistor. 3) Drive the 2 inputs from separate logic signals. Maybe the TxD line and a separate 'force break' line. Or the main and back channnel signals in a modem. My point was that you'd checked that the TxD line from the Z80-DART had got to the 1488, but you didn't say what happened to the other input of that bit of the 1488, if indeed there is a second input (the TxD could be using the single-input part of the 1488, of course). If case (3) applies, you could have had a problem in the logic that drives the other input, for example. > > > Now as for (2), check there's +12V and -12V on the right pins of the > > 1488. And that the ground pin is, indeed, groudned. Remember a supply > > might be misisng because osmething is overloading it. Maybe a 1488 or a > > dcoupling capacitor has shorted. > > > It's showing -0.60v for all the -12v test points. Right. That, of course, is somethign you need to correct. Maybe the converter has failded. But 0.6V sounds like a diode-drop to me, so it might be that a chip has failed as is now acting like a forward-biased diode from the -12V line to ground, pulling it down. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 4 17:03:07 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:03:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 3, 8 05:43:30 pm Message-ID: > > Something might be loading it down, too. I'd check for that before assuming > > it's bad. > > > I'm not sure I know how to do that. I was just going to pull the > converter and power it up by itself to see if I get -12v out of it. That's basically how you do it. Remove the converter, power it up and see if oyu get the right output. If you do, then it's worth trying a sensible load on it (A 1k resistor?) to make sure the output doesn't drop spectacularly. If the convertor works like that, but doesn't work when fitted to the PCB, then something is overloading it. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 18:11:18 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 18:11:18 -0600 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801040854r576bad8au858d8f35afd034ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801040854r576bad8au858d8f35afd034ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801041611u61ffbffcq47f7abf4e210ba6a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 10:54 AM, Jason T wrote: > Got my SGI Crimson up and running on serial console, and I've got an > old SGI monitor sitting around, but I guess I gave away all my cables. > Anyone have such a cable in their junk bins? Only ones on ebay now > are from the dealer-gougers. Whoa.....my old Hitachi model ?? 19" monitor and the first VGA-13W3 adaptor I grabbed out of the drawer actually worked! I should probably still look for one of those cables, though... Now to deal with the cdrom issue. From mkath at charter.net Fri Jan 4 18:45:07 2008 From: mkath at charter.net (Matt & Kathy Carpenter) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 19:45:07 -0500 Subject: accessing a DEC TSZ07 from a PC Message-ID: <8642F8DC-6514-4E5F-A4C6-FC10CD03F89A@charter.net> A few years ago I picked up a DEC TSZ07 and would like to access it from my PC. The DEC TSZ07 is a tabletop 9-track tape drive with a SCSI-1 interface. Apparently it was originally manufactured by Cipher Data, model 955-S. I'd just like to write some files out to tape and then read them back. I don't have to recover/restore any data from an old tape. Ideally from a Windows machine. Has anyone tried this? Is there any software available? Matt Roswell, Georgia From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Jan 4 19:47:35 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:47:35 -0800 Subject: accessing a DEC TSZ07 from a PC In-Reply-To: <8642F8DC-6514-4E5F-A4C6-FC10CD03F89A@charter.net> References: <8642F8DC-6514-4E5F-A4C6-FC10CD03F89A@charter.net> Message-ID: <477EE1B7.9050200@mindspring.com> Matt & Kathy Carpenter wrote: > > A few years ago I picked up a DEC TSZ07 and would like to access it > from my PC. > > The DEC TSZ07 is a tabletop 9-track tape drive with a SCSI-1 > interface. Apparently it was originally manufactured by Cipher Data, > model 955-S. > > I'd just like to write some files out to tape and then read them back. > I don't have to recover/restore any data from an old tape. Ideally > from a Windows machine. > > Has anyone tried this? Is there any software available? > > Matt > Roswell, Georgia > I've done something similar under WinXP using the CYGWIN unix emulation environment, which has 'dd', 'mt', and all your other favorite command-line unix utilities available. I have a DEC SCSI QIC tape drive (TSZ10 or something like that) connected to an Adaptec AHA-2940U in my windows machine. Within cygwin, this device then shows up as /dev/st0, where you can 'dd' and 'mt' as you like. BTW you can also 'dd' to your system disks (as /dev/hdaX or /dev/sdaX) as well, so be careful! cygwin is available at www.cygwin.com Don From mardy at voysys.com Fri Jan 4 20:55:43 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:55:43 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and having an actual schematic would help a lot! Thanks, -Mardy From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 20:58:48 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:58:48 -0500 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area Message-ID: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> I've recently been searching for a VMS-capable machine or two in the East Bay area of San Francisco, CA and have been directed to this list. Besides catering to my interest in classic computing, I'm hoping it will also have a few subscribers in my area (Livermore) with a VAX, Alpha, or Itanium to get rid of cheap. If you have one, please drop me a note off-list. I guess I'll also need CDs or CD images of VMS for Alpha if I end up getting one of those... I have VAX images but no Alpha. Oh, one more thing--I have already run VMS on SIMH's VAX emulator, thank you, but I'd like to try it on real hardware. Thanks John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jan 5 00:23:12 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 22:23:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <200801040647.36251.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801031049.52879.rtellason@verizon.net> <200801040647.36251.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: >> I'm not sure I know how to do that. I was just going to pull the >> converter and power it up by itself to see if I get -12v out of it. > > That's exactly how you do that. Just disconnect that output and see what's > there. If it gets close to what you could call normal, then there's some > other problem, like a shorted bypass cap or similar. > If the DC-DC converter is indeed blown and I can actually get it off the board, (difficult to identify the actual pins and hit 'em with a solder sucker) I may just replace the power supply with one that can provide -12V and leave the converter out. Apparently the 1489 has been replaced in the past as there is visual indication of a post-production soldering job being done on that chip. Didn't install a socket tho. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jan 5 00:35:56 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 22:35:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My point was that you'd checked that the TxD line from the Z80-DART had > got to the 1488, but you didn't say what happened to the other input of > that bit of the 1488, if indeed there is a second input (the TxD could be > using the single-input part of the 1488, of course). If case (3) applies, > you could have had a problem in the logic that drives the other input, > for example. > The other input to the 1488 is coming from pin 17 on the DART which is marked "RTSA" on the schematic for the DART - the output from that section of the 1488 goes to the "HSO" or "Hand Shake Out" line on the board connector - this appears to correspond to pin 20 on the RS-232 connector. >> >>> Now as for (2), check there's +12V and -12V on the right pins of the >>> 1488. And that the ground pin is, indeed, groudned. Remember a supply >>> might be misisng because osmething is overloading it. Maybe a 1488 or a >>> dcoupling capacitor has shorted. >>> >> It's showing -0.60v for all the -12v test points. > > Right. That, of course, is somethign you need to correct. Maybe the > converter has failded. But 0.6V sounds like a diode-drop to me, so it > might be that a chip has failed as is now acting like a forward-biased > diode from the -12V line to ground, pulling it down. > Would you recommend that I pull the 1488 first instead of the DC-DC converter? tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 5 02:50:32 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 00:50:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A > (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the > assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual > schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and > having an actual schematic would help a lot! I have an original documentation binder that I'll check out and photocopy if it has the schematics. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jan 5 03:31:49 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:31:49 +0100 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801040854r576bad8au858d8f35afd034ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080105103149.5d235749@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:00:54 +0000 Austin Pass wrote: > Would the Sun 13W3-BNC leads not work? Yes, if you use sync on green. The pinout on the coax pins is the same on Sun and SGI (and IBM). The difference is in the 10 small pins for sync and monitor ID. All SGIs with 13W3 connector that I had in my hands supply sync on green. So if your monitor supports sync on green just connect the three RGB BNC connectors and you are done. You can't do this with Suns. Usually they don't supply sync on green. You need the extra pin with the csync signal. So you must use a 13W3 to 4 BNC cable with Sun pinout. But you can solder a 470R resistor from the csync to the G pin and make your own sync on green. I've done this on one or two TGX SBus framebuffers. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jan 5 03:35:54 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:35:54 +0100 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801041420p3a03a691j1ed112bc9b08cdd3@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801041042o773bb322ud71d706808856d1b@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730801041420p3a03a691j1ed112bc9b08cdd3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080105103554.580ecd6f@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:20:47 -0600 "Jason T" wrote: > There are two external SCSI connectors. If I attach to the left > one, I lose my hard drives (and still no cdrom seen in 'hinv.') If I > attach to the right one, nothing. May it be possible that the Crimson uses High Voltage Differential SCSI for its disks like some HP9000 server class machines? In that case a Single Ended device will look up the bus completely. Check the model designator on the disks if they are SE or HVD... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Dominic.Romaguera at LeTigre.com Fri Jan 4 15:47:39 2008 From: Dominic.Romaguera at LeTigre.com (Dominic Romaguera) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:47:39 -0600 Subject: RX02 / DSD440 / SA801 problem Message-ID: Tom: In reference to problems listed below...if you can fax or email complete LED-decoding, it would be GREATLY appreciated... Dominic 281-320-7525FAX On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > 6 and 8 on : "indeterminate density" . > Maybe the floppydisc itself is marginal ? There's nothing in the drive when this is happening. Maybe when it tries to move, its checking for density? > 5, 6 and 8 : "invalid drive status during seek" > > Give me a fax number off-list and I'll fax you the complete LED-decoding > list. Cool, thanks! -Tom {\rtf1\mac\ansicpg10000\cocoartf824\cocoasubrtf420 {\fonttbl\f0\fswiss\fcharset77 Helvetica;} {\colortbl;\red255\green255\blue255;} \margl1440\margr1440\vieww13240\viewh11000\viewkind0 \pard\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\tx2880\tx3600\tx4320\tx5040\tx5760\tx6480\tx7200\tx7920\tx8640\ql\qnatural\pardirnatural \f0\fs24 \cf0 ________________________________________________________________________________\ \ LeTigre Solutions, Inc.\ \ This message, as well as any attached document, contains information\ from LeTigre Solutions, Inc. that is confidential and/or privileged. The\ information is intended only for the use of the addressee named above.\ \ If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any\ disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in\ reliance on the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly\ prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in\ error, please delete all electronic copies of this message and its\ attachments, if any, destroy any hard copies you may have created,\ without disclosing the contents, and notify the sender immediately.\ \ Unless expressly stated otherwise, nothing contained in this message\ should be construed as a digital or electronic signature, nor is it\ intended to reflect an intention to make an agreement by electronic\ means. \ \ \ } From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 4 17:47:41 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:47:41 -0800 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? In-Reply-To: <00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> References: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com> <00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <477EC59D.2020903@flippers.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I'm assuming that this is on-topic as the equipment I wish to use >> this in is microprocessor controlled (68000) piece of test equipment >> - the Fluke 9100 series of microprocessor test fixtures. > > Wow!!! Great!!! > >> What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is a >> cost effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash >> being an optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost effective >> solution... > > What is the address of this list? Got interested :oD How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist Sounds like you would be an asset to the group - a few of us are trying to keep these old timers running to make our lives a bit easier when fixing old video game PCBs. > > >> Anyone have suggestions? > > Do you know how simple SCSI and SCSI-2 is??? > > Why not a simple microcontroller (AVR!!! AVR!!! connected to a SCSI > bus and to some cheap-serial-memory like SD/MMC cards? It can be done > easily and cheaply, and you would have the advantage of (pseudo?)FAT > compatibility. Or at least device image distribuition thru the net. > BASCOM (www.mcselec.com) has a nice BASIC compiler for AVRs and good > examples of SD interfacing. Maybe worth a look :o) > > Greetings from Brazil > Alexandre Souza > > That sounds good, however beyond my time or abilities... John :-#)# From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 4 17:52:02 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:52:02 -0800 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? In-Reply-To: <4882.209.163.133.242.1199482369.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200801041800.m04I0WQL042928@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4882.209.163.133.242.1199482369.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <477EC6A2.6010800@flippers.com> Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:27:57 +0000 >> From: Stroller >> >> On 3 Jan 2008, at 18:35, John Robertson wrote: >> >>> ... >>> What my group of friends (Tech Tools Mail List) are looking for is >>> a cost effective replacement for the ancient SCSI drives with flash >>> being an optimum solution, but trying to find the most cost >>> effective solution... >>> >>> I've only found one solution (Adtron S35FA) on line ... >>> >> I'm not immediately able to find pricing on the Adtron product, but >> IDE-SCSI adaptors - to allow you to connact an (E)IDE hard-drive to a >> SCSI bus are readily available. CF flash memory cards "talk EIDE" and >> again simple pin-out convertors are readily available - and also very >> cheap - or you can make your own. >> > > To get specific with part numbers... > > Acard makes the Acard 7720 in a few varieties. In this case you'd want > the 7720U probably for its narrow interface (7720UW has 68 pin interface > and there are LVDS flavors as well). This has a narrow (50 pin) single > ended SCSI interface on the upstream side and a regular 3.5" IDE (as > opposed to notebook drive) interface on the downstream side. > > It retails for about $70, but there's a fellow selling a boat-load of used > ones on Ebay for $30 each. I have some new ones I'm selling for $39 > which include the little power splitter/adapter and a nice instruction > sheet. :-) > The "fellow selling a boat-load" won't ship outside the USA - hope you do! I shall report back once I have hada chance to play with this adapter on my 9100. John :-#)# > Once you have the 7720U, you have two directions you can go. Go as you > planned and get any of the inexpensive IDE<=>CF Card adapters, which > typically cost well under $10. Geeks.com has an assortment for $5 each > with a dual CF card adapter for $7.50 in their "controllers/adapters" > section. > > The other direction you could go is to get a 2.5" to 3.5" drive adapter > for about $5 (again at geeks.com, there's a cheaper one, but the $5 one > comes with rails as well as circuit board) and add any of the 2.5" IDE > hard drives you can find littering the ground. > > There can be gotchas depending on your equipment. One resourceful fellow > in Australia used an IDE to CF card adapter in the PowerBook 150, IIRC, > only to find that the IDE in the PB150 interpreted the device ID of CF > improperly (built before or around time spec was finalized) and would not > recognize it. His solution was to build an adapter board to recognize and > intercept the ID transaction and then let all other transactions pass. > As I mentioned, a resourceful fellow. > > The point being, there are possible compatibility problems depending on > the equipment being used. > > Jeff Walther > > > > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 5 06:08:18 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 09:08:18 -0300 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? References: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com><00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> <477EC59D.2020903@flippers.com> Message-ID: <006101c84f94$2b69fea0$02fea8c0@portajara> > How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist > Sounds like you would be an asset to the group - a few of us are trying to > keep these old timers running to make our lives a bit easier when fixing > old video game PCBs. I have some experience on that. Fixed arcade machines for a living years ago, and worked in the biggest arcade operator of my state. Hope I can help with something :o) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 5 11:17:18 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:17:18 -0300 Subject: Replacing SCSI with flash? References: <477D2B06.1010704@flippers.com><00c601c84f09$70a37680$0302a8c0@portajara> <477E8358.2020803@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <010901c84fbe$f0846c50$02fea8c0@portajara> > If this develops into a project, I'd like to know. I have a need to do > some solid state SCSI. I also know AVRs and FAT FS. Jim, I have no need of that, but I'd love to contribute, although I'm only versed in basic (bascom) and starting with a bit of C. But what an interesting project it would be, and very useful for our fellow collectors. Of course, this could be extended to ST-506 and like :o) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jan 5 10:26:54 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:26:54 -0800 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200801050826.58872.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 04 January 2008 18:58, John Floren wrote: > I've recently been searching for a VMS-capable machine or two in > the East Bay area of San Francisco, CA and have been directed to > this list. Since you're in the SF Bay Area, you might want to join the Bay Area Collector List: baccl "at" lists.baccl.net It's a very low noise list - and there are likely folks on the list with VAXes available for local pickup. There is also a regular monthly "DEC Computer Lunch" (DCL) in Mountain View. Folks participate in the DCL from Santa Cruz to the East Bay. It's open to all DEC vintage computer lovers (and anyone else who wants to participate in mostly "decspeak"). Contact me off list for information on the DCL. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 5 10:32:59 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:32:59 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <200801051620.m05GJp5P056097@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801051620.m05GJp5P056097@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3cdf8c353c4557a87b8a6174c913c01c@valleyimplants.com> On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:20 AM, Jason T. wrote: > I did see the Sun cable with the 4 BNC on US ebay and thought the > same. I'm not sure if that fourth lead is relevant. > Nope - unconnected it's just floating, the same as if it wasn't there. SGI 4Ds have always used sync-on-green, so connect your x BNC -> 13W3 up and connect the RGB leads, ignoring the other ones. You do need to have a SOG-capable monitor. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 10:36:05 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:36:05 -0800 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I have an old schematic that I got from someplace but the quality is not that good after a scan. I though I'd pass one what I found on my panel. The first thing I found it that the data cable was backward. This is that cable that goes from the panel to the CPU board. Thing will seem to work, like reset and run but any address or data will be messed up. The next thing I found was that one of the open collector drivers onto the data bus was not working. These are used to jam instructions onto the data bus when you do front panel operations. These are places to look for things being wrong on your machine. Dwight > From: mardy at voysys.com > > Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A > (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the > assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual > schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and > having an actual schematic would help a lot! > > Thanks, > > -Mardy > _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Jan 4 23:57:59 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 21:57:59 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > jd wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after >>> it was a dead OS elsewhere - [snipsnip] ) >>> >> >> It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned >> getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, >> somehow. > > Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out > of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that > anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were > directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. Considering how naive about physical and electronic security just about everyone was then, I would not be at all surprised. This was at about the time OS/2 first came out and found it's way into industrial equipment, I think. The KISS mentality was still in full effect and hardware design for ATM's still consisted of collecting off-the-shelf components and tossing them together. An ATM would have just one console and that would be the front monitor and keypad, often by default, and the rear monitor and keypad or keyboard, if so equipped, that would require using a hardware or software switch, like those old Inmac KVM-without-the-M switch boxes. Of course, for convenience, it was possible to do stuff from the front keypad, such as use a maintenance menu. Eventually, when ATM design evolved, such convenient features faded into oblivion. > >> Apparently there's nothing better on the shelf. > > I'd heard that too, but I don't know how much of it's folklore. I > suspect these days they all just run MS Windows, and any increase in > failure rate is seen to be cheaper to handle than trying to support a > 'dead' OS. > If experience is any indication, I would say it's true. Windows is so ubiquitous and people are so accustomed to it breaking that it doesn't seem to matter anymore: They're inured to the pain. Or perhaps numb. Some people would be helpless without the pain, I suppose, even if it saved tons of money to cast the demon out. It's very costly in terms of cost of ownership and lost product. Word was that IBM was going to give or sell some customers what they needed to maintain their copies of OS/2. Since some of their customers have invested a lot in installing OS/2 in their quarter-to-half-million-dollar-plus-plus-plus products, it does not seem likely that they would care to abandon OS/2 for at least a while. Especially not after they got things working so nicely. They would at least want maintenance--bug fixes, etc. Haven't heard since whether IBM actually did give the customers anything. == jd From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 5 10:46:21 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:46:21 -0800 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: <200801051620.m05GJp5P056097@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801051620.m05GJp5P056097@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:20 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Richard wrote: > Oh, a VGXT. I've wanted one of those in my collection as its the > first SGI machine with hardware texture. I'm still fuzzy on what the > difference is between a Crimson and a VGXT, aside from the graphics > bits. Crimson is the base machine, VGXT is the graphics set - similar to what you get with smaller boxes (i.e. you can have an Indigo2 in XL, EXtreme, IMPACT, etc.). VGXT is the 3rd generation high end SGI graphics (1st - IRIS graphics, 2nd - GTX, 3rd - VGX(T), 4th - Reality) Jason T wrote: > I believe the > Server had no gfx at all? Now inside the door I also found an "Elan" > tag with the glue worn off, so I'm guessing it may have gotten a field > upgrade, video card and label. > > I've got a dead Iris 410/VGXT downstairs. Wonder if I can transplant > the gfx board from that into the Crimson? Servers (S) didn't come with graphics. Later SGI separated out their server lines even more with a different base name (Challenge/Origin), but during the late '80s the base model was the same. Regarding the gfx upgrade: You can, but SGI never wrote a good OpenGL implementation for the PowerVision VGX/VGXTgraphics hardware, so much of the work is done by the main CPU (IRIS GL is fully supported). So, it depends on what you want to do with it... > > Anyone tried to use external SCSI on a Crimson (or Iris?) Mine has > all the drive bays full (3 HDD and a 150mb tape) and I'm trying to get > a CDROM hooked up temporarily so I can reset the root pw on the drive. > There are two external SCSI connectors. If I attach to the left > one, I lose my hard drives (and still no cdrom seen in 'hinv.') If I > attach to the right one, nothing. It should be the one on the cardcage (make sure termination is good). If that doesn't work, you can loop it in the two connectors on the bottom right (one cable from lower connector to CD-ROM, one cable from CD-ROM to top connector). Is the jumper present? There should be a short cable between the two, and you might have oddities if this isn't there (such as the cardcage connector not functioning). One possible gotcha- IRIX 6.2 fx for the Crimson is broken, so you'll need to fx with either an earlier IRIX (4.0.5-5.3) or fx on a different SGI. All of this is per the SGI hardware developer's handbook, I don't have a Crimson. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 5 10:53:39 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:53:39 -0800 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: <200801051620.m05GJp5P056097@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801051620.m05GJp5P056097@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:20 AM, Jochen wrote: > May it be possible that the Crimson uses High Voltage Differential SCSI > for its disks like some HP9000 server class machines? In that case a > Single Ended device will look up the bus completely. Check the model > designator on the disks if they are SE or HVD... > -- The base I/O on 4D-series (including Crimson) machines was SE SCSI-I (WD 33c93) on the IO3B. HVD can be installed through VME options, but was not standard (as it was in the later Onyx/Challenge). The OP may want to look at Gerhard's page about the Crimson (http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/hardware/machines/crimson.php), which gives more details about the SCSI configuration. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 5 11:21:47 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 09:21:47 -0800 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477FBCAB.1040108@sbcglobal.net> I have a copy of the schematics binder here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/IMSAI_Schematics.pdf Just fair scans, but usable. I fixed two last year, both with bad 7405's. Bob Marden P. Marshall wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A > (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the > assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual > schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and > having an actual schematic would help a lot! > > Thanks, > > -Mardy > > From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 11:25:29 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:25:29 -0600 Subject: SGI Crimson (was:13W3-3BNC cable) Message-ID: <51ea77730801050925n2a68cd01wcbfb2a0bd2af23c5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 5, 2008 10:46 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > Servers (S) didn't come with graphics. Later SGI separated out their > server lines even more with a different base name (Challenge/Origin), > but during the late '80s the base model was the same. So since mine says "Server" yet has a 13W3 gfx board (haven't opened it up to ID it yet, and can't get into the OS to do a gfxinfo) it was probably a field-upgrade? I do have the "Elan" badge as well, and the owner only had one Crimson, so I'm assuming that's where it came from. > You can, but SGI never wrote a good OpenGL implementation for the > PowerVision VGX/VGXTgraphics hardware, so much of the work is done by > the main CPU (IRIS GL is fully supported). So, it depends on what you > want to do with it... "Pimp my SGI," I guess, and just make use of the nicer gfx board before the dead Iris gets scrapped. > One possible gotcha- IRIX 6.2 fx for the Crimson is broken, so you'll > need to fx with either an earlier IRIX (4.0.5-5.3) or fx on a different > SGI. I got an internal cdrom recogzined last night. The only Irix distro I have now is 6.5. Will the Crimson at least load fx from that? It was acting like it couldn't even find the file, though, giving some scsi errors if I booted into the hdd's fx and tried 'ls dksc(....)" on the CD. I tried an Apple CD600i and a Toshiba model which was listed in the SGI cdrom survey. Of course, they could be bad drives, who knows. Too many variables! Next method will be to attach the boot drive to another SGI and edit /etc/passwd from there. Thanks for all the helps -- j From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 11:27:40 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:27:40 -0600 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: <200801050826.58872.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> <200801050826.58872.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801050927t690c65a8nc50925be5dbf1208@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 5, 2008 10:26 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > There is also a regular monthly "DEC Computer Lunch" (DCL) in > Mountain View. Folks participate in the DCL from Santa Cruz to the > East Bay. It's open to all DEC vintage computer lovers (and anyone Only in the Valley! Oh well, I was born on the wrong side of the country I guess. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 5 11:39:18 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:39:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801051239.19039.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 January 2008 03:50, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A > > (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the > > assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual > > schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and > > having an actual schematic would help a lot! > > I have an original documentation binder that I'll check out and photocopy > if it has the schematics. I do too, someplace. It's hiding though. I don't recall if it includes that information or not. If you end up making that info available in electronic form, I'd be interested in having a copy as well. And while we're on the subject of Imsai, does anybody have part numbers handy for those switches? I have several that are broken to replace. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From djg at pdp8.net Sat Jan 5 12:02:08 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:02:08 -0500 Subject: RX02 / DSD440 / SA801 problem Message-ID: <200801051802.m05I28c15612@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Manual is at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 12:12:36 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:12:36 -0800 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I thought I'm note that both manuals on Harte's page and Cini's page only show half of the fold out schematic for the CP-A ( front panel ). It would be really great if when someone gets a scan that they send it to either to get the mauanls updated. The schematics are one of the most important part of the manuals but seem to be the main missing part. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From mardy at voysys.com Sat Jan 5 12:19:54 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:19:54 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: <477FBCAB.1040108@sbcglobal.net> References: <477FBCAB.1040108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <81BD33F7-EEB8-4695-AF3F-827FA39BCEB6@voysys.com> Thank you Bob! They look great! -Mardy On Jan 5, 2008, at 12:21 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have a copy of the schematics binder here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/IMSAI_Schematics.pdf > > Just fair scans, but usable. I fixed two last year, both with bad > 7405's. > > Bob > > Marden P. Marshall wrote: >> Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A >> (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the >> assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual >> schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and >> having an actual schematic would help a lot! >> >> Thanks, >> >> -Mardy >> >> > From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 12:26:53 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:26:53 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <200801051800.m05I07Uv057894@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801051800.m05I07Uv057894@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <477FCBED.5010003@gmail.com> Message: 8 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:25:29 -0600 From: "Jason T" Subject: SGI Crimson (was:13W3-3BNC cable) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <51ea77730801050925n2a68cd01wcbfb2a0bd2af23c5 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jan 5, 2008 10:46 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: >So since mine says "Server" yet has a 13W3 gfx board (haven't opened >it up to ID it yet, and can't get into the OS to do a gfxinfo) it was >probably a field-upgrade? I do have the "Elan" badge as well, and the >owner only had one Crimson, so I'm assuming that's where it came from. The only way to be positive is if you open the case. the 13W3 connection was the standard monitor connector for SGI's for almost a decade. >"Pimp my SGI," I guess, and just make use of the nicer gfx board >before the dead Iris gets scrapped. Just part it out and sell it on nekochan.net if you are going to scrap it. >I got an internal cdrom recogzined last night. The only Irix distro I >have now is 6.5. Will the Crimson at least load fx from that? It was >acting like it couldn't even find the file, though, giving some scsi >errors if I booted into the hdd's fx and tried 'ls dksc(....)" on the >CD. I tried an Apple CD600i and a Toshiba model which was listed in >the SGI cdrom survey. Of course, they could be bad drives, who knows. > Too many variables! > >Next method will be to attach the boot drive to another SGI and edit >/etc/passwd from there. > >Thanks for all the helps Most of the older PROM style systems had an issue booting from a cd drive. You can't just use any with them. Many people report that Plextor drives are some of the best and Toshiba drive are right behind. Don't forget also that the cd drive must be ID 4 and be set for 512 byte sectors (not 1024 or 2048). I personally have never tried booting my crimson with my 6.5 cd's but if you just use FX from an Irix 5.3 cd you should be fine. From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 12:35:16 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:35:16 -0800 Subject: Crimson boards and parts Message-ID: <477FCDE4.1010808@gmail.com> Well since I see someone else here is chatting about their red box it might be nice to ask questions too. My Crimson was given to me by a person who originally got several desksides at a Boeing sale. When I got the system it had a ruined RM4 (raster manager) board and was missing it's GE8 (Geometry Engine) board. Turns out that the GE8 was accidentally sold and the RM4...well....I guess that is what you get when you grab a random RM4 off a pile of boards and install it before inspecting it. The system is otherwise fine (aside from the lower side skirts missing, no drive sleds, a dead fan tray and not much ram) however it would be nice to find another GE8 board and see the Reality Engine, the best graphics option for the system, come back to life with another RM4. Who here has some spare trays and/or a GE8 board they are not using? It might also be nice to get more ram also. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 5 12:51:11 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:51:11 -0800 Subject: SGI Crimson Message-ID: <657247c939239be12c10e96196222161@valleyimplants.com> Jason wrote: > So since mine says "Server" yet has a 13W3 gfx board (haven't opened > it up to ID it yet, and can't get into the OS to do a gfxinfo) it was > probably a field-upgrade? I do have the "Elan" badge as well, and the > owner only had one Crimson, so I'm assuming that's where it came from. > Most likely. 13W3 outputs do indicate either Entry or Express graphics, and the badge indicates "Elan" (though Crimsons did have an Extreme option). > I got an internal cdrom recogzined last night. The only Irix distro I > have now is 6.5. Will the Crimson at least load fx from that? It was > acting like it couldn't even find the file, though, giving some scsi > errors if I booted into the hdd's fx and tried 'ls dksc(....)" on the > CD. I tried an Apple CD600i and a Toshiba model which was listed in > the SGI cdrom survey. Of course, they could be bad drives, who knows. > Too many variables! > > Next method will be to attach the boot drive to another SGI and edit > /etc/passwd from there. > > Thanks for all the helps > No go- IRIX support for IP17 stopped at 6.2 (it's substantially different from the later ARCS-derived systems, and has more in common with the R3000/R2000 based systems than the later ones). IRIX 5.3 or IRIX 6.2 are your best bets, though IRIX 4.0.5 (hard to find software for), IRIX 5.1 (yuck!), and 5.2 (much better, but still not as good as 5.3) will also run on it. The SCSI errors don't sound good- check your setup there. You might see file not found errors, but they won't be SCSI errors. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 12:58:41 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:58:41 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <477FCBED.5010003@gmail.com> References: <200801051800.m05I07Uv057894@dewey.classiccmp.org> <477FCBED.5010003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801051058j4c2d1bd3h5e5de08b31a24572@mail.gmail.com> > Most of the older PROM style systems had an issue booting from a cd drive. You can't just use any with them. Many people report that Plextor drives are some of the best and Toshiba drive are right behind. Don't forget also that the cd drive must be ID 4 and be set for 512 byte sectors (not 1024 or 2048). I personally have never tried booting my crimson with my 6.5 cd's but if you just use FX from an Irix 5.3 cd you should be fine. Is ID 4 essential? I've read conflicting info re: required device IDs for booting. What is the expected behavior using a different ID? From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 13:03:24 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:03:24 -0600 Subject: SGI Crimson In-Reply-To: <657247c939239be12c10e96196222161@valleyimplants.com> References: <657247c939239be12c10e96196222161@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801051103r352478f6ka2cd560fc42913a6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 5, 2008 12:51 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > No go- IRIX support for IP17 stopped at 6.2 (it's substantially > different from the later ARCS-derived systems, and has more in common > with the R3000/R2000 based systems than the later ones). IRIX 5.3 or > IRIX 6.2 are your best bets, though IRIX 4.0.5 (hard to find software > for), IRIX 5.1 (yuck!), and 5.2 (much better, but still not as good as > 5.3) will also run on it. The SCSI errors don't sound good- check your > setup there. You might see file not found errors, but they won't be > SCSI errors. OK, time to find a 5.3 or 6.2 disc(s) then. I'm not trying to reinstall an O/S - not yet anyway. I just want to get root reset on the existing install for now. Four drives installed in this box, I'm really curious to see what's on the drives! It's also got an 8mm tape drive. I guess that's a boot option too if I can find/make a tape. From technobug at comcast.net Sat Jan 5 13:24:21 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:24:21 -0700 Subject: DEC Station 5000/25 In-Reply-To: <200801051800.m05I07Up057894@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801051800.m05I07Up057894@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2C827EC8-DF00-4BEB-A1C8-543E41DFF9C4@comcast.net> If anyone is interested in the subject beast, contact me off list. Location 85704 USA. CRC From bob at jfcl.com Sat Jan 5 13:39:07 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:39:07 -0800 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801050927t690c65a8nc50925be5dbf1208@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> <200801050826.58872.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <51ea77730801050927t690c65a8nc50925be5dbf1208@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006a01c84fd2$a329c810$e97d5830$@com> > Jason T wrote: >Only in the Valley! (DEC Collector's Lunch, aka DCL :-) >Oh well, I was born on the wrong side of the country I guess. It's the second Saturday of the month, every month. You're welcome to attend if you're ever out here - we've had out of town visitors before. Bob Armstrong From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 5 14:10:26 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:10:26 -0600 Subject: LIST ADMIN - new temporary list Message-ID: <002601c84fd7$05f73870$6500a8c0@BILLING> Fellow Listmembers; I've procrastinated ad-nauseam on this till it's way past time to address the issue.... the Classiccmp server is in need of a hardware upgrade and/or replacement. The main (but not only) issue: disc space and thus chassis space. This produces a cascading set of dependencies :) I realize the upgrade is not entirely due to the classiccmp list, some of it is due to all the classiccmp related websites & ftp sites I have agreed to host gratis for listmembers. I feel these provide a service to our community and are worth providing the facilities for - but I want to make sure that is all clear to everyone. As a side note, we're looking to do a substantial bandwidth upgrade at the datacenter too - no doubt that will help traffic matters on the classiccmp server. I do not want to clutter up the normal list traffic with discussion of this topic. Some here won't care about it and/or will be annoyed by all the PeeCee hardware talk. Others will no doubt pull it into other unrelated topics ;) As a result, I've created a new temporary list (newserver at classiccmp.org) for this discussion. If anyone is interested in participating in the hardware discussion about what to upgrade to, how best to do it, etc. please join that list as soon as possible. Yes, I'm completely capable of coming up with a configuration and putting it into production without input... but there are various subjective things I'd like others advice on besides just my own. Not to mention these upgrades have usually been mostly funded through member donations so it's certainly appropriate to get input from as many as possible who wish to talk about it. My plan is to wait a week for anyone interested to get on the newserver list. After that time, I will start the discussion by posting a detailed list of exactly what is in the server, what issues I see with it, what I was thinking as to solutions, etc. Then we can all discuss there. Once we come down to how to proceed, perhaps we will post back to the main list for everyone to be aware of - or should we just assume the interested parties participated in the other list and just go with it? Don't answer that here, it's a question for the other list traffic :) Once a decision is reached, the temporary list will be decomissioned. I very sincerely appreciate the input anyone may have there with regards to server upgrade choices. Best regards, Jay West From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sat Jan 5 14:24:03 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:24:03 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> Message-ID: <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> jd wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> jd wrote: >>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after >>>> it was a dead OS elsewhere - [snipsnip] ) >>>> >>> It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned >>> getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, >>> somehow. >> Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out >> of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that >> anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were >> directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. > > Considering how naive about physical and electronic security just > about everyone was then, I would not be at all surprised. This was at > about the time OS/2 first came out and found it's way into industrial > equipment, I think. The KISS mentality was still in full effect and > hardware design for ATM's still consisted of collecting off-the-shelf > components and tossing them together. An ATM would have just one > console and that would be the front monitor and keypad, often by > default, and the rear monitor and keypad or keyboard, if so equipped, > that would require using a hardware or software switch, like those old > Inmac KVM-without-the-M switch boxes. Of course, for convenience, it > was possible to do stuff from the front keypad, such as use a > maintenance menu. Eventually, when ATM design evolved, such convenient > features faded into oblivion. I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have been a windoze based ATM. And many ATMs still run OS/2. It is only being replaced by windoze on new models since IBM refused to support the hardware any more. > >>> Apparently there's nothing better on the shelf. >> I'd heard that too, but I don't know how much of it's folklore. I >> suspect these days they all just run MS Windows, and any increase in >> failure rate is seen to be cheaper to handle than trying to support a >> 'dead' OS. >> > > If experience is any indication, I would say it's true. Windows is so > ubiquitous and people are so accustomed to it breaking that it doesn't > seem to matter anymore: They're inured to the pain. Or perhaps numb. > Some people would be helpless without the pain, I suppose, even if it > saved tons of money to cast the demon out. It's very costly in terms > of cost of ownership and lost product. > Do a google on BSOD and ATM for lots of photos of windoze based ATMs. > Word was that IBM was going to give or sell some customers what they > needed to maintain their copies of OS/2. Since some of their customers > have invested a lot in installing OS/2 in their > quarter-to-half-million-dollar-plus-plus-plus products, it does not > seem likely that they would care to abandon OS/2 for at least a while. > Especially not after they got things working so nicely. They would at > least want maintenance--bug fixes, etc. Haven't heard since whether > IBM actually did give the customers anything. > > == > jd Large IBM customers have contracted for their own OS/2 source code line support. IBM refers smaller customers who just need to purchase new licenses or get support for new hardware to Serenity Systems for their OEM version of OS/2. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Jan 5 14:40:52 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:40:52 +0100 Subject: cg3 tweakability info? Message-ID: <20080105204052.311560@gmx.net> Hi, winter holidays left me with too much time at my hands and I'm currently trying out some more arcane (or is that "sick"?) stuff with my Sun workstations. According to the Sun Framebuffer FAQ, the TGX/TGX+ framebuffer is quite universally programmable - some OBP Forth magic allows you to select one of several possible dot clock frequencies, adjust front porch/sync/back porch widths in multiples of pixel duration and so on. (Before anyone asks, this is all just idle experimental proof-of-concept stuff and not intended to work with any off-the-shelf software. If all goes extremely well, it might turn into a sort of SPARC-based videogame console somewhere in time, as I'm looking for TV rate RGB output.) As I don't have a TGX/TGX+ in any of my easily accessible machines, I'd like to know just how "versatile" other framebuffers (mainly the cg3 built into the SPARCclassic) are in this respect. I've already extracted some of the corresponding FCode(attributes and words from /iommu/sbus/cgthree) but it doesn't give me much of an idea where to start yet. Has anybody been involved with that stuff far enough to tell me - or just give me some pointers towards figuring out - which lever does what? Btw, I do have a datasheet of the RAMDAC but could not find any useable information on the LSI L1A4946 chip which obviously, amongst other things, has to generate the video timing. If necessary, I'd even consider replacing the video clock crystal - SPARCclassics are abundant enough here. Thanks in Advance, Arno -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 14:54:23 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:54:23 -0800 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: <006a01c84fd2$a329c810$e97d5830$@com> References: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> <200801050826.58872.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <51ea77730801050927t690c65a8nc50925be5dbf1208@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c84fd2$a329c810$e97d5830$@com> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2008 11:39 AM, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > Jason T wrote: > > >Only in the Valley! (DEC Collector's Lunch, aka DCL :-) > >Oh well, I was born on the wrong side of the country I guess. > > It's the second Saturday of the month, every month. You're welcome to > attend if you're ever out here - we've had out of town visitors before. > > Bob Armstrong > > Oh, the things you learn first thing in the morning... I just signed up for the list! And the second Saturday is next week... Lyle, I'll contact you off list as well for the details. Mark From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 5 15:00:28 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:00:28 -0600 Subject: LIST ADMIN - new temporary list References: <002601c84fd7$05f73870$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <00c301c84fde$00859e70$6500a8c0@BILLING> Subscription details for those who are rusty ;) Do not send "subscribe" to newserver at classiccmp.org as that is a (initially) non-member post to the list. To subscribe: send an email (subject and body doesn't matter) to newserver-subscribe at classiccmp.org Or send an email with a body of "subscribe" to newserver-request at classiccmp.org Or go to http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/newserver Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 5 15:08:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 21:08:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 4, 8 10:35:56 pm Message-ID: > > > My point was that you'd checked that the TxD line from the Z80-DART had > > got to the 1488, but you didn't say what happened to the other input of > > that bit of the 1488, if indeed there is a second input (the TxD could be > > using the single-input part of the 1488, of course). If case (3) applies, > > you could have had a problem in the logic that drives the other input, > > for example. > > I am hampered by the facts that (a) this machine is not at all common in the UK, so I've never seen one and (b) I don't have schematics. > > The other input to the 1488 is coming from pin 17 on the DART which is > marked "RTSA" on the schematic for the DART - the output from that section > of the 1488 goes to the "HSO" or "Hand Shake Out" line on the board > connector - this appears to correspond to pin 20 on the RS-232 connector. But I don;t believe that for an isntant. I do not believe that the pin that's convnetioanlly DTR is driven by a combination of the RTS and TxD signals. RTS on its own would be reasonable. Let me re-state what I am asking. The 1488 has 4 sections. These sections are independant of each other, sharing only pwoer connections. 3 of the secions are NAND gates with 2 inputs each, one is an inverter (NOT gate) with only 1 input How are thse sectiions used? In particualr, the section that drives the TxD ouput (pin 2 on the DB25 connector), does it have 1 or 2 inputs? If the latter, where do _both_ of the inputs go? Are they linked together, do they come from separate signals? > >> It's showing -0.60v for all the -12v test points. > > > > Right. That, of course, is somethign you need to correct. Maybe the > > converter has failded. But 0.6V sounds like a diode-drop to me, so it > > might be that a chip has failed as is now acting like a forward-biased > > diode from the -12V line to ground, pulling it down. > > > > Would you recommend that I pull the 1488 first instead of the DC-DC > converter? Again, I don';t know wnough about the machine. Is the -12V line used by anything else apart from the RS232 drivers? How many 1488s are there on the board? You want to remove either the DC DC converter or all the loads on it. If the altter are just 1 or 2 1488s, it might be easier to remove those. If the -12V line is still missing with those off the board (and again assuming tyhat -12V line doesn't power anytthing else), you then want to remvoe any capacitors between that -12V line and ground (they can short too). If it's still missing, then the converter is bad, but I'd still test it after getting it off the board. If you remvoe the converter first, and it tests fine out-of-circuit, you then need to find which of the on-board compoentns that connect to the -12V line (1488s, decoupling capacitors between the -12V line and ground, anything else?) is shorted. aybe by re-fitting the covnerter and removing the components until the -12V line comes back. -tony From robo58 at optonline.net Sat Jan 5 15:57:15 2008 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:57:15 -0500 Subject: Brad Parker -- I'm Interested: free strongarm sa1100 devel system kit In-Reply-To: <200712271932.lBRJWsfO016495@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200712271932.lBRJWsfO016495@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Hi Brad, I'm interested in your offer if its still available. Robo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 2:32 PM Subject: free strongarm sa1100 devel system kit > > I have a strongarm (sa1100) development board I'm about to pitch and I > thought maybe someone here would want it. It's an "Assabet" board I > think. It once booted linux. I have some of the original cdrom's also > and the serial cable and power supply. The devel board has ethernet, > usb, lcd and sound. > > It seems like it's 10 years old anyway :-) I believe the part has been > EOL'd. > > If you want it, send me you address and paypal postage. The box weighs > 5lbs (.3 stone? :-) > > -brad > > Brad Parker > Heeltoe Consulting > +1-781-483-3101 > http://www.heeltoe.com > From mardy at voysys.com Sat Jan 5 16:02:40 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:02:40 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: <200801051239.19039.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801051239.19039.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 05 January 2008 03:50, David Griffith wrote: >> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Marden P. Marshall wrote: >>> Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A >>> (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the >>> assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual >>> schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and >>> having an actual schematic would help a lot! >> >> I have an original documentation binder that I'll check out and >> photocopy >> if it has the schematics. > > I do too, someplace. It's hiding though. I don't recall if it > includes that > information or not. If you end up making that info available in > electronic > form, I'd be interested in having a copy as well. > > And while we're on the subject of Imsai, does anybody have part > numbers handy > for those switches? I have several that are broken to replace. They are made by C & K. The 2-position ones are P/N 7101 and the momentary are P/N 7105. You can order them from www.IMSAI.net for between $11.00 and 12.00 a piece. > > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > > From slawmaster at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 16:47:21 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:47:21 -0500 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220801041858o11d9d653g6f37667c8dd66cd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801051447p679ff407y2b0d8786000cec96@mail.gmail.com> Well, I've had a LOT of responses to this, thanks everyone. I just picked up an AlphaStation 250 4/266 that I'm hoping will work out for me. Anyone who has the CD images for VMS on Alpha, could you drop me a line? Thanks John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jan 5 17:01:08 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:01:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am hampered by the facts that (a) this machine is not at all common in > the UK, so I've never seen one and (b) I don't have schematics. > Tony, I've scanned the page that covers this section of the board. The schematic is nice clear, BUT the file is a 20MB TIFF image. :) http://www.simpits.org/~geneb/ampro_littleboard_cpu1b_2_of_3.tif According to the list on the last schematic page, -12V is only present on two pins. The output on the DC-DC converter, and pin 1 of the 1488. tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 5 17:24:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:24:27 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: References: <200801051239.19039.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200801051824.27716.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 January 2008 17:02, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > And while we're on the subject of Imsai, does anybody have part > > numbers handy for those switches? I have several that are broken to > > replace. > > They are made by C & K. The 2-position ones are P/N 7101 and the > momentary are P/N 7105. You can order them from www.IMSAI.net for > between $11.00 and 12.00 a piece. Thanks, I thought I'd remembered them being C&K, but lacked the specific numbers... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jan 5 17:33:27 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 18:33:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: cg3 tweakability info? In-Reply-To: <20080105204052.311560@gmx.net> References: <20080105204052.311560@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200801052345.SAA11567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > According to the Sun Framebuffer FAQ, the TGX/TGX+ framebuffer is > quite universally programmable - some OBP Forth magic allows you to > select one of several possible dot clock frequencies, adjust front > porch/sync/back porch widths in multiples of pixel duration and so > on. > (Before anyone asks, this is all just idle experimental > proof-of-concept stuff and not intended to work with any > off-the-shelf software. If all goes extremely well, it might turn > into a sort of SPARC-based videogame console somewhere in time, as > I'm looking for TV rate RGB output.) And I'd be interested in making my 1600x1280-capable framebuffers do 1600x1200, so they can be used with designed-for-peecee (= inexpensive) displays. (The one I care most about is a cg14, not a cg6, but IIRC they are rather similar in how things like video modes get set.) > As I don't have a TGX/TGX+ in any of my easily accessible machines, You appear to be in Germany. I have lots of such SBus boards, and would be happy to post one to you, but I don't know whether it would be worth the hassle involved in getting it through borders - I'm in Canada. If you want one, drop me a line - I don't recall whether you've gotten mail to me in the past; if not, I recommend mouse at netbsd.org and mouse at openface.ca as well as mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca. > I've already extracted some of the corresponding FCode(attributes and > words from /iommu/sbus/cgthree) but it doesn't give me much of an > idea where to start yet. Has anybody been involved with that stuff > far enough to tell me - or just give me some pointers towards > figuring out - which lever does what? Doesn't uncompiling the FCode give you a fair idea of what's involved in setting up the video? > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10 No thanks. It appears to be (a) entirely auf Deutsch, (b) binary-only, and (c) offering nothing I particularly want. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Jan 5 16:11:53 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:11:53 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <478000A9.9010401@garlic.com> madodel wrote: > > I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have > been a windoze based ATM. No, it was OS/2. Windoze was not used for ATM's at the time. It is possible to get into a shell. Have had to use a mere numeric keypad to get a shell prompt when the keyboard, trackball and touchscreen all quit working. <=Warp3+. btdt. I know that windoze, since NT3.51 and 95, has been put on ATM's. Wasn't at all hard to BSOD them; sometimes just looking cross at them does it. Usually it took a tiny bit more, though. > > Large IBM customers have contracted for their own OS/2 source code line > support. IBM refers smaller customers who just need to purchase new > licenses or get support for new hardware to Serenity Systems for their > OEM version of OS/2. > It's nice that it's not following other better OS's into oblivion, then. I'm sure there was much rejoicing. Define "large customers"? Mega OS/2 sales/licenses or mega multinationals or what? == jd Variants on "Name That Tune!": "Name That OS!" and, "Name That Hardware!" using only a portable radio. From Messrs. Corvid & Mustelid, Games, Ltd. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 5 18:44:51 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:44:51 -0700 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:47:21 -0500. <7d3530220801051447p679ff407y2b0d8786000cec96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <7d3530220801051447p679ff407y2b0d8786000cec96 at mail.gmail.com>, "John Floren" writes: > Anyone who has the CD images for VMS on Alpha, could you drop me a line? > Thanks I thought you could get OpenVMS for free through the hobbyist license? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 18:54:17 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 19:54:17 -0500 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area In-Reply-To: References: <7d3530220801051447p679ff407y2b0d8786000cec96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801051654o295a916bp72bac65dfbd3acb5@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/08, Richard wrote: > > In article <7d3530220801051447p679ff407y2b0d8786000cec96 at mail.gmail.com>, > "John Floren" writes: > > > Anyone who has the CD images for VMS on Alpha, could you drop me a line? > > Thanks > > I thought you could get OpenVMS for free through the hobbyist license? You can get the license for free, but for some reason HP has decided not to provide downloads. You can buy hobbyist media for $30, but that's way more than I've spent getting the system itself and I don't want to wait for the thing to arrive, so I'm hoping somebody has it up on FTP somewhere. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sat Jan 5 19:49:28 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:49:28 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <478000A9.9010401@garlic.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <478000A9.9010401@garlic.com> Message-ID: <478033A8.4000609@ptdprolog.net> jd wrote: > madodel wrote: >> I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have >> been a windoze based ATM. > > No, it was OS/2. Windoze was not used for ATM's at the time. It is > possible to get into a shell. Have had to use a mere numeric keypad to > get a shell prompt when the keyboard, trackball and touchscreen all > quit working. <=Warp3+. btdt. I know that windoze, since NT3.51 and > 95, has been put on ATM's. Wasn't at all hard to BSOD them; sometimes > just looking cross at them does it. Usually it took a tiny bit more, > though. Then the programmers didn't know what they were doing. OS/2 has long had the ability to set either a command prompt or a Presentation Manager program executable as its shell, which would prevent anyone from getting at the system desktop. If they set a PM program as the shell, crashing the program would just reboot OS/2 back into the program. > >> Large IBM customers have contracted for their own OS/2 source code line >> support. IBM refers smaller customers who just need to purchase new >> licenses or get support for new hardware to Serenity Systems for their >> OEM version of OS/2. >> > > It's nice that it's not following other better OS's into oblivion, > then. I'm sure there was much rejoicing. Define "large customers"? > Mega OS/2 sales/licenses or mega multinationals or what? Large to IBM is gigantic to me and most likely you. I know Medtronics had and probably still has its own source code line, but they use OS/2 for highly specialized embedded devices. Keep in mind contracting with IBM for source code support probably does not get the company the actual source code, just their own version of OS/2 that IBM will consider making fixes/updates to if they agree to. I have heard there are things IBM will not fix no matter what. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 5 20:47:58 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 18:47:58 -0800 Subject: SGI Crimson In-Reply-To: <200801060153.m061r2LO064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801060153.m061r2LO064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <387c05764b1cae8749a31be770b60ca5@valleyimplants.com> On Jan 5, 2008, at 5:53 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Is ID 4 essential? I've read conflicting info re: required device IDs > for booting. What is the expected behavior using a different ID? > No- OpenBoot Suns alias the "boot cdrom" command to a specific ID, but SGIs don't. Don't use ID0- that's the HBA on SGIs, other than that anything goes. Default systemdisk is ID1, though, respecting that makes it easier. For a different ID you have to change your "boot" command, that's the only difference. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 5 20:56:01 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 18:56:01 -0800 Subject: VAX or Alpha in San Francisco east bay area Message-ID: <3e38655dd42405904b9a503e3070d468@valleyimplants.com> > You can get the license for free, but for some reason HP has decided > not to provide downloads. You can buy hobbyist media for $30, but > that's way more than I've spent getting the system itself and I don't > want to wait for the thing to arrive, so I'm hoping somebody has it up > on FTP somewhere. > AFAIK the DEC/CPQ/HP license never allowed that officially. The big unfortunate bit about the hobbyist program is that HP has not approved a v4 hobbyist release with OpenVMS 8.2 yet (been years). There are differences between V7.3-2 and V8.x that make some software unusable. On the good side, the licenses are valid for any version of OVMS you can get your hands on, Itanium support has been added to the hobbyist PAKGEN, and the program is still alive! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 01:07:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:07:23 -0800 Subject: TQFP soldering (follow-up) Message-ID: <47800DAB.8027.30F886C7@cclist.sydex.com> I tried my hand at soldering a 68 pin TQFP using the "push the blob down" method described on a YouTube video. It worked pretty well, but for one side of the QFP, where there were several solder bridges. The bridges were easy to clean up using a bit of solder wick. About the only thing I'd do differently is to tack down two corners rather than one--it's easy with just one corner tacked to displace the package slightly with just the pressure of the soldering tip. I didn't try the "flood and suck" method. I used the largest chisel tip on my old Weller TC201 iron, a PTC6--a blunt tip suited to soldering #14 wire, but it holds a lot a solder. Thanks all for the suggestions, Chuck From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sun Jan 6 01:15:20 2008 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 07:15:20 +0000 Subject: Wanted: 13W3-3BNC cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2008, at 22:47, Richard wrote: > In article <51ea77730801041420p3a03a691j1ed112bc9b08cdd3 at mail.gmail.com > >, > "Jason T" writes: > >> Indeed, it is mighty pretty too! Mine is the "server" model, going >> by >> the label on top, yet it has a 13W3 graphics card. I believe the >> Server had no gfx at all? > > As I understand it, that's correct. But on these systems you can add > a graphics card to it. > > Is yours marked "Jurassic Classic"? Mine is :-) Only one of mine is. ;-) >> I've got a dead Iris 410/VGXT downstairs. Wonder if I can transplant >> the gfx board from that into the Crimson? > > Oh, a VGXT. I've wanted one of those in my collection as its the > first SGI machine with hardware texture. I'm still fuzzy on what the > difference is between a Crimson and a VGXT, aside from the graphics > bits. VGXT is a graphics board set, Crimson is a machine. Crimson can be equipped with the VGXT board set. The IRIS 410 is a single MIPS 3000 deskside machine, quite like the Crimson, only brown. The difference between Crimson and the 4x0 IRISes is that Crimson is an R4000 machine, while earlier ones are R3000. >> Anyone tried to use external SCSI on a Crimson (or Iris?) > > I haven't tried it yet on any of my machines, but I'd be interested to > hear the results of debugging your issue if you get it working. > > Is it possible that the SCSI device IDs are fixed and that's why > connecting an external device makes your HD disappear? No, they aren't fixed. But SCSI can be set up in a couple of ways in Crimson, putting some of the internal bays on either a single bus or divided between them. This has an impact on how termination should be handled (terminators on the connectors at the bottom). I don't carry the Crimson user guide with me on holiday, but I'll be glad to look up the particulars when I get home next week. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink whatever comes out?" -- Joost van de Griek From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 6 01:28:53 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:28:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update - I pulled the 1488 and sure enough, the -12V came back up. I stupidly picked up a 16 pin socket instead of a 14, so it'll be some time next week before I get the new part installed. Can someone recommend a place were I could find a 40 pin chip-clip? Jameco, Mouser and Digikey haven't got any - unless of course I'm calling it by the wrong name. :) tnx all for your help! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From slawmaster at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 01:31:02 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 02:31:02 -0500 Subject: TQFP soldering (follow-up) In-Reply-To: <47800DAB.8027.30F886C7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47800DAB.8027.30F886C7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801052331me862d03o858af40a301a1813@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I tried my hand at soldering a 68 pin TQFP using the "push the blob > down" method described on a YouTube video. It worked pretty well, > but for one side of the QFP, where there were several solder bridges. > > The bridges were easy to clean up using a bit of solder wick. About > the only thing I'd do differently is to tack down two corners rather > than one--it's easy with just one corner tacked to displace the > package slightly with just the pressure of the soldering tip. > > I didn't try the "flood and suck" method. > > I used the largest chisel tip on my old Weller TC201 iron, a PTC6--a > blunt tip suited to soldering #14 wire, but it holds a lot a solder. > > Thanks all for the suggestions, > Chuck I had a job a few years back that involved a LOT of soldering SMT parts onto circuit boards. I had to put in a whole lot of 64-pin (think it was 64...) chips over the course of a summer, and I quickly found out my favorite/easiest method. It's best if you can work under a microscope; we had binocular microscopes that were perfect under low magnifications. After placing the board under the 'scope, I'd apply copius flux, then tack down two corners. Then I'd swap all the pins with flux again. Next, I'd take my rather fine-tipped soldering iron, get a blob of solder on the tip, and quickly swipe it down the pins along one side. Inspection would reveal that almost all the pins now had very nice fills and very few were bridged. Any bridges were very easy to fix, usually requiring just a quick swipe of the soldering iron. Basically, the biggest aids to doing this are having a decent microscope and a fine-tipped soldering iron. With those, you can easily solder in dozens of these guys. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 01:32:36 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:32:36 -0800 Subject: Word Perfect 3.0? Message-ID: <47801394.6112.310F9CAE@cclist.sydex.com> I've got some document files from 1984 that were created on a PC. Although I'm not certain about the program used to create them, they certainly look internally like Word Perfect (256 bytes of 00, a few binary bits and then a block of FFs, followed by text blocks). My conversion packages (RDocX and WordPort) only go back to WP 4.1 and while they accept the files as Word Perfect, don't convert them properly. Does anyone have a suitable vintage copy of WP for DOS that might handle these things? Thanks, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 6 01:52:59 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 01:52:59 -0600 Subject: Word Perfect 3.0? In-Reply-To: <47801394.6112.310F9CAE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <47801394.6112.310F9CAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <478088DB.2020205@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have a suitable vintage copy of WP for DOS that might > handle these things? Dammit. Now i have to go digging. :) Probably yes. Doc From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jan 6 02:25:44 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:25:44 +0100 Subject: Word Perfect 3.0? References: <47801394.6112.310F9CAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008301c8503d$bb4ea620$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:32 AM Subject: Word Perfect 3.0? > > Does anyone have a suitable vintage copy of WP for DOS that might > handle these things? I have a WP 4.3. Would that be useful? Nico > From kcox155 at earthlink.net Sat Jan 5 12:19:32 2008 From: kcox155 at earthlink.net (Kenny Cox) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:19:32 -0500 Subject: Amplifier manuals Message-ID: <000601c84fc7$85352d00$6402a8c0@arctic> Chris, I know this is an old thread I am looking at, but if you still have a copy of Realistic MPA-100 owners manual, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Kenny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 5 16:53:16 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:53:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic Message-ID: <0JU7009PO0TXYY20@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic > From: "Marden P. Marshall" > Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:02:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >On Jan 5, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> On Saturday 05 January 2008 03:50, David Griffith wrote: >>> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Marden P. Marshall wrote: >>>> Does anyone know where I can find the schematic for the IMSAI CP-A >>>> (operators panel)? Every source I have looked at just has the >>>> assembly and operations manual for the CP-A, but not the actual >>>> schematic. I'm trying to bring back an old one from the grave, and >>>> having an actual schematic would help a lot! >>> >>> I have an original documentation binder that I'll check out and >>> photocopy >>> if it has the schematics. >> >> I do too, someplace. It's hiding though. I don't recall if it >> includes that >> information or not. If you end up making that info available in >> electronic >> form, I'd be interested in having a copy as well. >> >> And while we're on the subject of Imsai, does anybody have part >> numbers handy >> for those switches? I have several that are broken to replace. > >They are made by C & K. The 2-position ones are P/N 7101 and the >momentary are P/N 7105. You can order them from www.IMSAI.net for >between $11.00 and 12.00 a piece. That's anywhere from $3-5 more than Digikey and they are an expensive source! I usually get them for under $7 in unit lots. NOTE: the suffix for those switches is important as they come in differnt mountings and with differing solder posts. Allison > >> >> >> -- >> Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >> ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >> be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet >> Masters" >> - >> Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by >> lies. --James >> M Dakin >> >> From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 6 06:56:28 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:56:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microvax maintenace CDROM Message-ID: <23979.88.211.153.27.1199624188.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Found during cleanup. 1 Microvax maintenance CDrom, contains the diagnostic software. Complete in caddy and grey storage case. (Dec partno AG-PCUSE-RE) I would like to have $15 for it. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 6 07:33:18 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:33:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microvax maintenance CDROM Message-ID: <16791.88.211.153.27.1199626398.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > Found during cleanup. > > 1 Microvax maintenance CDrom, contains the diagnostic software. > Complete in caddy and grey storage case. > (Dec partno AG-PCUSE-RE) > > I would like to have $15 for it. > > I found a few more things which are related to the cdrom, a diagnostics manual and a set (11) of 5.25 floppies in plastic case. All 3 items together for $25 + postage. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 10:27:11 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:27:11 -0800 Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801060827k1ecc5b51qeb73ae6e07543fdb@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 5, 2008 11:28 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Can someone recommend a place were I could find a 40 pin chip-clip? > Jameco, Mouser and Digikey haven't got any - unless of course I'm calling > it by the wrong name. :) > Do you mean one of these 3M IC Test Clips? Nail Head: 923722 http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/3M/Web%20Photos/923722.jpg Headless: 923690-40 http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/3M/Web%20Photos/923690-40.jpg From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Jan 6 10:38:23 2008 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:38:23 -0700 (MST) Subject: Microvax maintenace CDROM In-Reply-To: <23979.88.211.153.27.1199624188.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <23979.88.211.153.27.1199624188.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I'm interested. Where are you located? Clint On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > > Found during cleanup. > > 1 Microvax maintenance CDrom, contains the diagnostic software. > Complete in caddy and grey storage case. > (Dec partno AG-PCUSE-RE) > > I would like to have $15 for it. > From elazzerini at interfree.it Sun Jan 6 10:44:02 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:44:02 +0100 Subject: Big Board 1: make alive again! Message-ID: Hi at all, please excuse me for my not correct english, i'm writing from Pisa (Italy). I have a old Ferguson BigBoard1. I played with it almost 20 years ago then I lost its schematic. Here its references: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/miscpm/fbbfeb82.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigboard http://www.stevenjohnson.com/big-board.htm At this moment : a) I got all doc from here: http://www.dtweed.com/docs/index.html b) I pulled away all chips and I matched the PCB with that schematic checking all differences. On the board there is not the Z80 DART so I'll can't try to use Hyperterminal to connect me to the board. I think to put the chips asap almost when I'll have: 1) a parallel keyboard: is it anybody could help me to transform a PS/2 or AT keyboard in a parallel one? Even using the only internal matrix and using a new keyboard encoder (I prefer less this way cause my limited free time). In 1983 I used KR-2376 to create the correct character codes. 2) a composite monitor : I have a monochromatic monitor "hantarex boxer 12" like this http://cgi.ebay.it/Monitor-HANTAREX-BOXER-12-RARISSIM-retro-jamma-SuperGun_W 0QQitemZ130182617194QQcmdZViewItem, but i have not its schematic. Is there anybody who could help me? With this working I HOPE to can make the board alive to get its "System Prompt" . Wow! 3) The second step if it will go fine will be to connect my Mitsubishi M2896-63 8inc Internal Floppy Drive to it. I have two drives but I have not its manual. So is there anybody who has its manual? 4) If I will can format a 8inc diskette I will need to rebuild the CP/M 2.2 Operating System: So is there anybody who has info to give me to how to do this? Thanks so much to all that would help me giving all kind of info, links and news. Enrico Lazzerini From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 6 11:35:47 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:35:47 +0100 Subject: cg3 tweakability info? In-Reply-To: <20080105204052.311560@gmx.net> References: <20080105204052.311560@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080106183547.77c11f05@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:40:52 +0100 "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > As I don't have a TGX/TGX+ in any of my easily accessible machines, Arno, this is quite easy to fix. I'll snail mail you one or two GX/TGX/TGX+ later this week. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 12:29:04 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:29:04 -0800 Subject: TQFP soldering (follow-up) In-Reply-To: <200801061800.m06I07hx075826@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801061800.m06I07hx075826@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4780AD70.29116.33689D44@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 02:31:02 -0500 > From: "John Floren" > It's best if you can work under a microscope; we had binocular > microscopes that were perfect under low magnifications. I long ago took a tip from my dentist and use a binocular loupe. Not cheap, but you can move your head and not the work. Some even have built-in light sources (mine doesn't). > Next, I'd take my rather fine-tipped soldering iron, get a blob of > solder on the tip, and quickly swipe it down the pins along one side. > Inspection would reveal that almost all the pins now had very nice fills > and very few were bridged. Ah, the web sources seem to say "use the biggest tip you've got to hold the most solder". I'll try the next one with a fine tip. Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 12:33:16 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:33:16 -0800 Subject: Word Perfect 3.0? In-Reply-To: <200801061800.m06I07hx075826@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801061800.m06I07hx075826@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4780AE6C.6361.336C74F2@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 09:25:44 +0100 > From: "Nico de Jong" > I have a WP 4.3. Would that be useful? I honestly don't know--it might be and I'd be willing to try to see if it will import older versions. If I can convert to WP 4.x, I can take it from there. Thanks! Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:04:24 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:04:24 +0000 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> On 05/01/2008, madodel wrote: > jd wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> jd wrote: > >>> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>>> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after > >>>> it was a dead OS elsewhere - [snipsnip] ) > >>>> > >>> It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned > >>> getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, > >>> somehow. > >> Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out > >> of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that > >> anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were > >> directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. > > > > Considering how naive about physical and electronic security just > > about everyone was then, I would not be at all surprised. This was at > > about the time OS/2 first came out and found it's way into industrial > > equipment, I think. The KISS mentality was still in full effect and > > hardware design for ATM's still consisted of collecting off-the-shelf > > components and tossing them together. An ATM would have just one > > console and that would be the front monitor and keypad, often by > > default, and the rear monitor and keypad or keyboard, if so equipped, > > that would require using a hardware or software switch, like those old > > Inmac KVM-without-the-M switch boxes. Of course, for convenience, it > > was possible to do stuff from the front keypad, such as use a > > maintenance menu. Eventually, when ATM design evolved, such convenient > > features faded into oblivion. > > I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have been > a windoze based ATM. And many ATMs still run OS/2. It is only being > replaced by windoze on new models since IBM refused to support the hardware > any more. You are very confident for someone asserting that another person has not seen something that they say they have. How can you know? Lots of ATMs & other bank financial systems ran OS/2. I have watched staff at 2 of the banks I deal with routinely - the Woolwich Building Society (now owned by Barclays) and Nationwide Building Society working with OS/2 systems in the last year. I, too, have also encountered crashed ATMs which have dropped to an OS/2 command prompt, several times. I used to be an OS/2 user myself; that [C:\] prompt is very distinctive. On at least one, the keypad did still generate numbers, too; alas, I had no Alt key, or I could have entered ASCII, very slowly, and who knows, given long enough, maybe worked out how to persuade the thing to empty its cash drawers for me. :?) But with no Alt and no Enter, there's not much you can do except type numbers. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:11:50 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:11:50 +0000 Subject: Mac OS X (was: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <20080102114746.X91095@shell.lmi.net> <200801022004.m02K4tx3010708@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <575131af0801061111t25a03914iab80a069915524fe@mail.gmail.com> On 03/01/2008, Randy Dawson wrote: > > OS X is BSD, with enhancements, but still FreeBSD inside. The *userland* is from FreeBSD. The *kernel* is Xnu, something totally different and unrelated, based on a Mach core. OS X is no more FreeBSD than Debian GNU k/FreeBSD is. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 6 11:48:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:48:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 5, 8 11:28:53 pm Message-ID: > > Update - I pulled the 1488 and sure enough, the -12V came back up. I Sounds like that 1488 is shorted, then. Of course it _could_ be that the DC-DC converter can't supply the rated load any more, but I doubt it. > stupidly picked up a 16 pin socket instead of a 14, so it'll be some time > next week before I get the new part installed. Err, clip 2 pins off the end of the socket? I've done that when I needed to get something working _now_ and I had the wrong socket. -tony From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 13:56:50 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 11:56:50 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <200801060153.m061r2LQ064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801060153.m061r2LQ064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47813282.6060203@gmail.com> >>Most of the older PROM style systems had an issue booting from a cd drive. You can't just use any with them. >>Many people report that Plextor drives are some of the best and Toshiba drive are right behind. Don't forget >>also that the cd drive must be ID 4 and be set for 512 byte sectors (not 1024 or 2048). I personally have never >>tried booting my crimson with my 6.5 cd's but if you just use FX from an Irix 5.3 cd you should be fine. >> >>Is ID 4 essential? I've read conflicting info re: required device IDs >>for booting. What is the expected behavior using a different ID? ID 4 is not really essential but it is a preferred address. Just don't forget to set the drive for 512 byte sectors. That is a must. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 6 13:58:28 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:58:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90801060827k1ecc5b51qeb73ae6e07543fdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90801060827k1ecc5b51qeb73ae6e07543fdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Glen Slick wrote: > On Jan 5, 2008 11:28 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> Can someone recommend a place were I could find a 40 pin chip-clip? >> Jameco, Mouser and Digikey haven't got any - unless of course I'm calling >> it by the wrong name. :) >> > > Do you mean one of these 3M IC Test Clips? > > Nail Head: 923722 > http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/3M/Web%20Photos/923722.jpg > > Headless: 923690-40 > http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/3M/Web%20Photos/923690-40.jpg > That's exactly it! Thanks Glen! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 6 14:04:17 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:04:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Testing a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Update - I pulled the 1488 and sure enough, the -12V came back up. I > > Sounds like that 1488 is shorted, then. Of course it _could_ be that the > DC-DC converter can't supply the rated load any more, but I doubt it. > >> stupidly picked up a 16 pin socket instead of a 14, so it'll be some time >> next week before I get the new part installed. > > Err, clip 2 pins off the end of the socket? I've done that when I needed > to get something working _now_ and I had the wrong socket. > I actually thought of that this morning when I got up. I'll do that. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 6 14:22:47 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:22:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Replaced a 1488 line driver... In-Reply-To: References: <1e1fc3e90801060827k1ecc5b51qeb73ae6e07543fdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ta Da! 60K Z80 Operating System AMPRO BIOS Version 3.8 Copyright (C) 1983,84,85,86 AMPRO Computers, Inc. (Clock Enabled) (Console Buffer Enabled) A0>dir -A60101 .G 0 | 48TPI .COM 4 | ALIAS .COM 4 | AMPRODSK.COM 6 ASM .COM 8 | CONFIG .COM 6 | CRC .COM 6 | CRC .CRC 4 DATE .COM 2 | DATE .DOC 4 | DDT .COM 6 | DIFF .COM 4 DIR .COM 2 | DISK7 .COM 4 | DOS .COM 8 | DOSFMT .COM 6 DUMP .COM 2 | ECHO .COM 2 | ED .COM 8 | EDRIVE20.ASM 16 ESET .COM 6 | FRIENDLY.COM 2 | FRIENDLY.TXT 4 | GENERIC .Z3T 2 LDR .COM 4 | LOAD .COM 2 | M7LB-31 .ASM 18 | M7LIB .COM 2 MCOPY .COM 6 | MDM740 .COM 20 | MENU .COM 6 | MENU .MNU 2 MOVCPM .COM 16 | MULTIDSK.COM 8 | MULTIFMT.COM 6 | MYTERM .Z3T 2 PATH .COM 2 | PIP .COM 8 | SAK .COM 2 | SD .COM 2 SET .COM 4 | STARTUP .COM 2 | STAT .COM 6 | SUBMIT .COM 2 SWAP .COM 4 | SWAPCOPY.COM 4 | SWAPCOPY.DOC 4 | SYSGEN .COM 2 TCMAKE .COM 6 | TCSELECT.COM 4 | TIME .COM 2 | TIME .DOC 4 UNERASE .COM 2 | UNSQ .COM 12 | V1BIOS .HEX 8 | WHEEL .COM 2 XSUB .COM 2 | Z3INS .COM 2 | Z3TCAP .TCP 10 | ZAMPRO0 .DOC 2 ZAMPRO0 .ENV 2 | ZEX .COM 6 | ZMOVCPM .COM 16 A0: -- 63 Files Using 330K ( 56K Left) A0> Thanks all! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jan 6 14:49:38 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:49:38 -0600 Subject: Big Board 1: make alive again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47813EE2.1020107@jbrain.com> Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > 1) a parallel keyboard: is it anybody could help me to transform a PS/2 or > AT keyboard in a parallel one? Even using the only internal matrix and using > a new keyboard encoder (I prefer less this way cause my limited free time). > In 1983 I used KR-2376 to create the correct character codes. > Fancy you should ask that. I just helped JP Hindin create such an interface for his Flashwriter II board. It's an Atmel AVR ATMEGA8 uC solution, but it decodes all the PS2/AT keyboard keystrokes (including the funky extended ones and the really esoteric ones like Pause/Break). Right now, the code will convert all the main KB keys, but has open slots in the tables for stuff like function keys and END/HOME and the like. They are easy to add, of course. The code also detects CTRL/Alt/Del and creates an Interrupt (for RESET) on the IC. Of course, I am sure there are other, more "vintage" ways to do this. But, it's a single IC design at present. With a spot of effort, I could probably remove the need for a crystal, so it would be a 4 part design (1 cap, 1 pullup, 1 IC, one PS2 connector), as it is now a 7 part design (crystal and 2 caps) I can provide the source and the designs if desired. Jim From grant at stockly.com Sun Jan 6 15:15:19 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:15:19 -0900 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0JU800FMDR1GTX00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> > >Here there is a schematic already suggested >http://eece.ksu.edu/~eece696/beta/digital/A/stop.htm but could it works? > >What could be the exact schematic and hardware to use? And at the last is >there anything "ready-to-use" cause I have not much time to spend to build >it? I don't think that circuit will work. This microcontroller encoder might work http://www.brielcomputers.com/superencoder.html Grant From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 6 15:26:10 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:26:10 -0800 Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 Message-ID: <4780D6F2.2845.340AC164@cclist.sydex.com> If anyone else needs MS-DOS 3.3 for the Grid PC, I've put it up at http://www.sydex.com/temp/griddos.zip. Two self-extracting 720K diskette image files and Grid PCMASTER and PCSLAVE data transfer programs. Note that this version of MS-DOS includes enhancements for the Grid PC. I'll leave it up until Friday. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 6 16:04:20 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:04:20 -0600 Subject: EISA and SCSI books available Message-ID: <47815064.4020105@oldskool.org> I stumbled on "Inside the EISA Computers" by Tony Dowden (ISBN 0-201-52397-3) and AT&T's "SCSI (Small Computer Systems Interface) Definition" book, both circa 1987. If anyone has any interest in these, you can have them for the cost of media mail shipping. The SCSI book is incredibly detailed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 16:22:24 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:22:24 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <47813282.6060203@gmail.com> References: <200801060153.m061r2LQ064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47813282.6060203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801061422n6674d15dx36509a8a38dc8ff7@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 6, 2008 1:56 PM, John Ball wrote: > ID 4 is not really essential but it is a preferred address. Just don't forget to set the drive for 512 byte sectors. That is a must. Other than a jumper, what is the correct way to do this? I always thought that a drive simply supported it or not, thus the need to search out old Toshiba, Sony and Plextor drives. So far I've tried all the drives in my inventory that booted my Indy and Indigo2s, but no luck on the Crimson. However - I was getting 'file not found' errors as well, and when using an Irix 6.5 disc, which I've now learned is the expected outcome. So hopefully that means it was at least reading the drive correctly. Vacation is over as of tomorrow morning! SGI time will be short :( From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Jan 6 16:22:42 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:22:42 +0100 Subject: cg3 tweakability info? Message-ID: <20080106222242.313050@gmx.net> Jochen Kunz wrote: > "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > > As I don't have a TGX/TGX+ in any of my easily accessible machines, > > Arno, this is quite easy to fix. I'll snail mail you one or two > GX/TGX/TGX+ later this week. :-) To Jochen, der Mouse and anybody else eager to help out: Thanks a bunch, but please, don't bother to! If you have Sun stuff to shed, I'll happily discuss that in private mail, but it's not immediately needed. I apologize that my message was a bit prone to misunderstand, but I actually meant to say that I *know* I have one of those things buried somewhere in my clutter and my interest is not sufficient at that stage to make me dig for it. If at all possible, I'd like to make do with the onboard cg3 of the SPARCclassic anyway. No, I've got no idea why people always think I'm into pain... So long, Arno. -- Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jan 6 16:45:01 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:45:01 -0600 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <0JU800FMDR1GTX00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JU800FMDR1GTX00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <478159ED.5090205@jbrain.com> Grant Stockly wrote: > >> >> Here there is a schematic already suggested >> http://eece.ksu.edu/~eece696/beta/digital/A/stop.htm but could it works? >> >> What could be the exact schematic and hardware to use? And at the >> last is >> there anything "ready-to-use" cause I have not much time to spend to >> build >> it? > > I don't think that circuit will work. > > This microcontroller encoder might work > > http://www.brielcomputers.com/superencoder.html > > Grant I can;t find the original reply on-list, so I am assuming it was off-list. The Briel solution will convert PS/2 to something parallel. I have not been able to Google for the specific Apple II format, but I assume it is straight parallel ASCII. For quick turnaround, the $29.00 would be a good investment. My solution is PS/2 only, so it can live on a much smaller uC. I put some pics online at: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/PS2Encoder I'll put the source online later tonight. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jan 6 18:07:57 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:07:57 -0500 Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <4780D6F2.2845.340AC164@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200801062314.m06NELpe018539@hosting.monisys.ca> > If anyone else needs MS-DOS 3.3 for the Grid PC, I've put it up at > http://www.sydex.com/temp/griddos.zip. Two self-extracting 720K > diskette image files and Grid PCMASTER and PCSLAVE data transfer > programs. > > Note that this version of MS-DOS includes enhancements for the Grid > PC. And if anyone is collecting this stuff, I've got three original 3.1 disks up on my images section: GRID Portable Computer Copyright (C) 1984 Operating System (GRID-OS) GRID Systems Corporation Version 3.1.0 A Mountain View, California 94043 GRIDVT100/GRIDReformat Copyright (C) 1985 Version 3.1.5 GRID Systems Corporation Mountain View, California 94043 Management Tools Copyright (C) 1984 Version 3.1.0 GRID Systems Corporation Mountain View, California 94043 Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 6 17:25:40 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:25:40 -0500 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: <200801060920.m069JmEA071791@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000301c850bb$737c94f0$6500a8c0@barry> I have a high quality CP-A schematic as a 600 DPI JPEG. I'd prefer to send it to someone who can host it, but I'll honor a FEW individual requests for it. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 6 17:25:49 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:25:49 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801061422n6674d15dx36509a8a38dc8ff7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200801060153.m061r2LQ064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47813282.6060203@gmail.com> <51ea77730801061422n6674d15dx36509a8a38dc8ff7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4781637D.1000809@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2008 22:22, Jason T wrote: > On Jan 6, 2008 1:56 PM, John Ball wrote: > >> ID 4 is not really essential but it is a preferred address. Just don't forget to set the drive for 512 byte sectors. That is a must. > > Other than a jumper, what is the correct way to do this? I always > thought that a drive simply supported it or not, thus the need to > search out old Toshiba, Sony and Plextor drives. > > So far I've tried all the drives in my inventory that booted my Indy > and Indigo2s, but no luck on the Crimson. Indy and Indigo^2 know (how) to issue the SCSI command which compliant drives use to change the block size. Indigo, Crimson, etc don't do that, so you have to jumper the drive. On older Toshiba drives (XM3101 to XM3401; I can't remember if my XM3601 is the same) there are a couple of pairs of half-moon solder pads, normally bridged by a track, near the SCSI ID and parity links. Breaking the two bridges sets the drive for 512-byte blocks. Actually, all four permutations mean something; three of the settings are for 512-byte blocks but with nuances for Sun, SGI, and Intergraph (IIRC) machines. Most of mine have some fine wires leading to a 2-section DIP switch :-) From the old SGI hardware FAQ: There are two solder pads located on the circuit board at the back right corner of the drive's aluminum housing when viewed from the top with the SCSI connector facing away from you. These may or may not be labeled as '0' & '1', but '0' is on the left and '1' is on the right (or closest to the edge of the circuit board). The normal state for these solder pads from the factory is for both of them to be closed. With an Exacto Knife or soldering iron (whichever is appropriate for the desired configuration), cut or solder these pads to match the entries in the following table: +++___++++++++__ |power SCSI | '0' '1' O=CUT/OPEN S=SHORTED/SOLDERED | 01| ---------- |----------------| S S Toshiba Default (2048 byte block) | | S O 512 byte blocks | TOP | O S SGI ( Bootable ) | OF | O O Sun / Integraph | DRIVE | | | | | | | |________________| On some drives, the pads are labelled the other way round; if so, assume the numbers are correct. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 18:07:14 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:07:14 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <4781637D.1000809@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200801060153.m061r2LQ064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47813282.6060203@gmail.com> <51ea77730801061422n6674d15dx36509a8a38dc8ff7@mail.gmail.com> <4781637D.1000809@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801061607v384de21dh4ae92ad51844e99@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 6, 2008 5:25 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Indy and Indigo^2 know (how) to issue the SCSI command which compliant > drives use to change the block size. Indigo, Crimson, etc don't do > that, so you have to jumper the drive. On older Toshiba drives (XM3101 Ahh, very good info indeed. The Toshiba I'm working with is an XM-6201B, a later model. I'll look into how to mod it, or just picking up another drive :) Thanks much -- j From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 6 18:17:26 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:17:26 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801061607v384de21dh4ae92ad51844e99@mail.gmail.com> References: <200801060153.m061r2LQ064012@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47813282.6060203@gmail.com> <51ea77730801061422n6674d15dx36509a8a38dc8ff7@mail.gmail.com> <4781637D.1000809@dunnington.plus.com> <51ea77730801061607v384de21dh4ae92ad51844e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801061617m507a95ds960eadc56a37a0d3@mail.gmail.com> >From the XM-6201B manual: --- Function jumper 6: If in your drive model this jumper is labeled "512/2K", you can change the data block size from 2kB to 512 bytes (e.g. for use in Unix systems). If in your drive model this jumper is labeled "PRV/ALW", you can block the drive's EJECT button. The disc tray can then only be opened via software. --- Guess which one I have.... :( Hey, at least I can prevent unauthorized ejects! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 6 20:22:57 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:22:57 -0800 Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: <000301c850bb$737c94f0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <000301c850bb$737c94f0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <47818D01.6010406@sbcglobal.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > I have a high quality CP-A schematic as a 600 DPI JPEG. I'd prefer to send > it to someone who can host it, but I'll honor a FEW individual requests for > it. > > Barry Watzman > Watzman at neo.rr.com > Thanks to Barry, it's available on my site at: http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/CPA%20Front%20Panel%20Schematic.jpg Bob From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sun Jan 6 21:12:22 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:12:22 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> Liam Proven wrote: > On 05/01/2008, madodel wrote: >> jd wrote: >>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> jd wrote: >>>>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>>> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after >>>>>> it was a dead OS elsewhere - [snipsnip] ) >>>>>> >>>>> It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned >>>>> getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, >>>>> somehow. >>>> Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out >>>> of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that >>>> anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were >>>> directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. >>> Considering how naive about physical and electronic security just >>> about everyone was then, I would not be at all surprised. This was at >>> about the time OS/2 first came out and found it's way into industrial >>> equipment, I think. The KISS mentality was still in full effect and >>> hardware design for ATM's still consisted of collecting off-the-shelf >>> components and tossing them together. An ATM would have just one >>> console and that would be the front monitor and keypad, often by >>> default, and the rear monitor and keypad or keyboard, if so equipped, >>> that would require using a hardware or software switch, like those old >>> Inmac KVM-without-the-M switch boxes. Of course, for convenience, it >>> was possible to do stuff from the front keypad, such as use a >>> maintenance menu. Eventually, when ATM design evolved, such convenient >>> features faded into oblivion. >> I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have been >> a windoze based ATM. And many ATMs still run OS/2. It is only being >> replaced by windoze on new models since IBM refused to support the hardware >> any more. > > You are very confident for someone asserting that another person has > not seen something that they say they have. How can you know? > I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. I'm fairly well acquainted with its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be able to prove that it did happen. > Lots of ATMs & other bank financial systems ran OS/2. I have watched > staff at 2 of the banks I deal with routinely - the Woolwich Building > Society (now owned by Barclays) and Nationwide Building Society > working with OS/2 systems in the last year. > > I, too, have also encountered crashed ATMs which have dropped to an > OS/2 command prompt, several times. I used to be an OS/2 user myself; > that [C:\] prompt is very distinctive. On at least one, the keypad did > still generate numbers, too; alas, I had no Alt key, or I could have > entered ASCII, very slowly, and who knows, given long enough, maybe > worked out how to persuade the thing to empty its cash drawers for me. > :?) > > But with no Alt and no Enter, there's not much you can do except type numbers. > If this were a common occurrence then we would be able to find some documentation of it other then just someone's antidotal remembrance that it might have happened and it might have been OS/2. There is ample evidence of crashed windoze ATMs on the net. Like I said I have never seen that. But I've never seen a crashed windoze ATM either. I have seen broken ATM's but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever been attainable. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 6 21:50:52 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:50:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic In-Reply-To: <000301c850bb$737c94f0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <000301c850bb$737c94f0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200801070351.WAA21257@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a high quality CP-A schematic as a 600 DPI JPEG. I'd prefer > to send it to someone who can host it, but I'll honor a FEW > individual requests for it. How big is it? I've still got some space left.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 6 21:57:49 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. I'm fairly well acquainted with > its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you > saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you > think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be > able to prove that it did happen. You're certainly welcome to doubt whether he was right, and/or think that he was mistaken. But we rarely put up a "burden of proof". > but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM > code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself > should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever > been attainable. "IF . . . had known what they were doing" I don't doubt that you could write some extraordinarily robust code. But, do you assert that Diebold knows what they are doing? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sun Jan 6 22:15:12 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:15:12 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: >> I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. I'm fairly well acquainted with >> its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you >> saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you >> think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be >> able to prove that it did happen. > > You're certainly welcome to doubt whether he was right, and/or think that > he was mistaken. But we rarely put up a "burden of proof". > >> but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM >> code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself >> should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever >> been attainable. > > "IF . . . had known what they were doing" > I don't doubt that you could write some extraordinarily robust code. > > But, do you assert that Diebold knows what they are doing? I can only say that they should and they could, but from what I have read on how insecure their voting machines are, I would say that now-a-days they have no clue. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 6 23:12:46 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:12:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 720k floppy drive... In-Reply-To: <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: Does anyone on the list have a pair of 720k, 3.5 inch drives they'd like to part with? I stole a pair of drives from my Amiga 2000 for my Ampro, but I need two more for the H-89. :) tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jan 6 23:33:16 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:33:16 -0600 Subject: A note on Keyboard interfaces Message-ID: <4781B99C.9060204@jbrain.com> For those with machines that have a way to plug into the KB matrix and want PS/2 keyboard support, I would suggest a derivative of C=Key (www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/). It acts like an 8x12 keyboard matrix to a vintage machine, no modifications to the machine are needed. As currently laid out, it's designed to work with the CBM VIC/64/128 series machines, but the source has been structured to allow easy retargeting to any KB matrix up to 8x12. On the PS/2 side, it decodes all incoming data and can send data to the PS/2 keyboard, such as resetting the KB and setting indicator LEDs. And, source code is under GPL, as is the design. I'm always up for a donation if you like the work, but I was once a starving collector too. The key is the MT8812 (or equivalent) cross point switch. However, it's overkill if you just need a serial or parallel output (PS2Encoder is much simpler). Note that, if you just need a PS2 KB to vintage machine interface, C=Key can be reduced in size and a much smaller uC can be used (you only need 8 data lines to run the Xpoint switch, 2 for the PS/2 interface, so a 14 pin or 20 pin uC will work fine. That's the same for the PS2Encoder. I used a 28 pin IC in the design as that was handy, but the design can work the smaller units. I'd be happy to help folks design new variations on the design for other systems (Atari and TI come to mind). Jim From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 6 23:44:51 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > I can only say that they should and they could, but from what I have read > on how insecure their voting machines are, I would say that now-a-days they > have no clue. With all this "a friend told me...". I remember seeing one at an OS/2 prompt. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 00:07:19 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:07:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080106220502.B38873@shell.lmi.net> > > I can only say that they should and they could, but from what I have read > > on how insecure their voting machines are, I would say that now-a-days they > > have no clue. > With all this "a friend told me...". I remember seeing one at an OS/2 > prompt. It seems clear that when Diebold programs the machines, failures need not be blamed on OS/2. From elazzerini at interfree.it Sun Jan 6 14:25:59 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:25:59 +0100 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter Message-ID: Hi at all, as many will have understood, i'd like to make my BigBoard 1 alive again. I need for a ASCII parallel keyboard. Many years ago (exactly 20 ones) I got a old cherry keyboard; I open it and rebuilt all its rows and colums to be the inputs for a KR-2376 keyboard encoder. I had much more time.. I though to realize an economical interface to convert signal coming from a PS/2 keyboard and convert each codes in parallel standard (data 0 to 7 plus strobe signal). Here there is a schematic already suggested http://eece.ksu.edu/~eece696/beta/digital/A/stop.htm but could it works? What could be the exact schematic and hardware to use? And at the last is there anything "ready-to-use" cause I have not much time to spend to build it? Thanks to all will answer. Regards Enrico From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 15:31:52 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:31:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <4780D6F2.2845.340AC164@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <266999.155.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > If anyone else needs MS-DOS 3.3 for the Grid PC, > I've put it up at > http://www.sydex.com/temp/griddos.zip. Two > self-extracting 720K > diskette image files and Grid PCMASTER and PCSLAVE > data transfer > programs. > > Note that this version of MS-DOS includes > enhancements for the Grid > PC. > > I'll leave it up until Friday. you thanks what's a grid? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 02:57:37 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 03:57:37 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477D665B.3060305@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <477BAFD9.50704@ptdprolog.net> <477D62AD.9010807@gmail.com> <477D665B.3060305@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4781E981.7070600@gmail.com> madodel wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> madodel wrote: >>> Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that there >>>> was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) that people >>>> were talking about. >>> >>> There was only one OS/2 and that was from IBM, unless you also count the >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Be careful with statements like that. They can come back to bite you. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > > > OK what other OS/2 was there? I'm not saying that there was. I'm saying that there is a fairly good chance of someone at some point in recorded history calling *something* OS/2, and it not having to do with IBM. It might have even been something from the 1920s or something not having anything to do with computers. Using absolutes like "only" and "never" can be dangerous. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 02:58:58 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 03:58:58 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <477D6694.8070100@ptdprolog.net> References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477AE18D.7090803@ptdprolog.net> <477D61DA.6030806@gmail.com> <477D6694.8070100@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4781E9D2.3070109@gmail.com> madodel wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> madodel wrote: >>>>> As far as I know the only released platforms for OS/2 were the x86 >>>>> and the >>>>> dead at birth OS/2 for PPC. I have never heard of it for any other >>>>> platform. I'd love to see a directory listing of this PDP-11 >>>>> version. It >>>>> is possible this may have been a version of NT which had some >>>>> rudimentary >>>>> OS/2 text mode support, but was not based on OS/2. I recall that >>>>> NT had >>>>> support for x86, PPC, and Alpha CPUs, so it would not be hard to >>>>> believe >>>>> that microsoft might have toyed with porting it to a DEC platform. >>>>> But I >>>>> see no listing for NT for the PDP-11 on Wikipedia. >>>> >>>> Weren't there also ports of OS/2 and NT for MIPS? For NT, that one >>>> seems >>>> fairly well-known, but for OS/2 I'm positive it exisited too (at >>>> least in >>>> vaporware). >>>> >>>> >>> >>> There was never any publicly acknowledged versions of OS/2 beyond the >>> x86 and PPC releases, and OS/2 for PCC was difficult if not >>> impossible to actually acquire even when IBM officially released it. >>> The PPC >> >> I know for a fact there was a MIPS OS/2. >> > > > Are you saying there was a Non-IBM operating system called "OS/2"? Nope. It was the IBM OS/2, packaged in with the MIPS off-the-shelf x86 emulation code and running *VERY* slowly on a MIPS Magnum. I know it exists because I have it. The copy I have is clearly labeled IBM Internal Use Only, and it is in my office, which is at an IBM site. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 03:05:52 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:05:52 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781A750.4020705@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4781EB70.6020907@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > >> I can only say that they should and they could, but from what I have read >> on how insecure their voting machines are, I would say that now-a-days they >> have no clue. > > With all this "a friend told me...". I remember seeing one at an OS/2 > prompt. > As do I. I was an OS/2 user at the time, and I thought it was interesting. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jan 7 03:32:46 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:32:46 +0100 Subject: Big Board 1: make alive again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080107103246.78b9a681@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 17:44:02 +0100 "Enrico Lazzerini" wrote: > I think to put the chips asap almost when I'll have: > > 1) a parallel keyboard: is it anybody could help me to transform a > PS/2 or AT keyboard in a parallel one? Even using the only internal > matrix and using a new keyboard encoder (I prefer less this way cause > my limited free time). In 1983 I used KR-2376 to create the correct > character codes. This may be of help: http://www.kbdbabel.org/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 03:33:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:33:37 -0800 Subject: Word Perfect 3.0? In-Reply-To: <200801070515.m075FhVr083208@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801070515.m075FhVr083208@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47818171.15948.36A4BB9F@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:33:16 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Scratch the request, please. After a little more looking, it seems that the application used to create these documents was Wang PC IWP, not an old WordPerfect. I got a hint that something was wrong when they wouldn't open with my WP 4.1. I can handle IWP. Thanks, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jan 7 00:25:09 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:25:09 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: >> I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. I'm fairly well acquainted with >> its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you >> saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you >> think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be >> able to prove that it did happen. > > You're certainly welcome to doubt whether he was right, and/or think that > he was mistaken. But we rarely put up a "burden of proof". > It's nigh impossible to provide proof, evidence, etc., when one has "eyes only" access, not even carrying a camera around, "just in case". For ATM's at least, no one's going to let you have anything as proof. If anyone feels otherwise I am sure the FBI would certainly be happy to assist in disabusing such silly notions. >> but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM >> code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself >> should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever >> been attainable. > > "IF . . . had known what they were doing" > I don't doubt that you could write some extraordinarily robust code. > > But, do you assert that Diebold knows what they are doing? > In defense of programmers, whether or not the programmer(s) failed to do an adequate job depends far more on their employer's policies and schedules than on the programmers' skill and experience. Mostly, companies seem to go with whatever works, even if it isn't perfect, or have a non-technical management type dictate precisely and strictly what a programmer is to do, regardless of the potential consequences. Or, rather, that /was/ a common policy. It's only slightly improved, though, in all the years since. == jd From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon Jan 7 10:32:55 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:32:55 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> Message-ID: <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> jd wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: >>> I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. I'm fairly well acquainted with >>> its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you >>> saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you >>> think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be >>> able to prove that it did happen. >> You're certainly welcome to doubt whether he was right, and/or think that >> he was mistaken. But we rarely put up a "burden of proof". >> > > It's nigh impossible to provide proof, evidence, etc., when one has > "eyes only" access, not even carrying a camera around, "just in case". > For ATM's at least, no one's going to let you have anything as > proof. If anyone feels otherwise I am sure the FBI would certainly be > happy to assist in disabusing such silly notions. > There are over 140,000 photos of ATM machines and quite a few of them with crashed or hacked windows, on the internet according to Google. There is no crime in taking a picture of an ATM screen. Now if you had an ax or were attaching chains to it from your truck, then someone might get upset. :-) I finally found two images of an ATM with an OS/2 error message. One has a TRAP screen http://www.hotfad.com/?title=Image:ATM_OS2_Crash.jpg It was a TRAP 000e which can be caused by bad RAM. The other http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Aih-JJ7ODXruuM:http://loss4words.com/~pics/xda-pictures/atm-crashoutput.jpg gives an unable to operate a hard drive message. Both are most likely hardware errors. Though either could have been caused initially by a software error causing the system to TRAP or reboot. But that is not at a command prompt. >>> but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM >>> code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself >>> should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever >>> been attainable. >> "IF . . . had known what they were doing" >> I don't doubt that you could write some extraordinarily robust code. >> >> But, do you assert that Diebold knows what they are doing? >> > > In defense of programmers, whether or not the programmer(s) failed to > do an adequate job depends far more on their employer's policies and > schedules than on the programmers' skill and experience. Mostly, > companies seem to go with whatever works, even if it isn't perfect, or > have a non-technical management type dictate precisely and strictly > what a programmer is to do, regardless of the potential consequences. > Or, rather, that /was/ a common policy. It's only slightly improved, > though, in all the years since. > > == Having been a programmer for a couple of decades, none of the companies I have worked for are going to tell a programmer in detail, exactly how to code something. They may specify a language and there might be a set of guidelines to follow. You are given a set of requirements and you code to them. Perhaps security wasn't a requirement. Though if something as bad as this (allowing users to get to a command prompt or a GUI) got through to a customer I would seriously suspect the company had little or no quality checking. But as I pointed out there are a lot of photos of crashed and hacked ATMs. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 7 10:38:27 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:38:27 -0600 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080107103549.0559a1f8@mail.threedee.com> At 10:32 AM 1/7/2008, madodel wrote: >There are over 140,000 photos of ATM machines and quite a few of them with crashed or hacked windows, on the internet according to Google. Hmm. There are 140,000 photos that match ("crashed" or "ATM"). Not quite the same meaning. I was once in a warehouse of dead ATMs and scrapped ATM boards, and I was somewhat surprised to see they used laptop hard drives. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 10:54:38 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080107085318.K58825@shell.lmi.net> It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. Input character print it loop From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 11:08:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080107090529.K58825@shell.lmi.net> just hack it to do a screen print to the built-in printer :-) > >> But, do you assert that Diebold knows what they are doing? On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, madodel wrote: > Having been a programmer for a couple of decades, none of the companies I > have worked for are going to tell a programmer in detail, exactly how to > code something. They may specify a language and there might be a set of > guidelines to follow. You are given a set of requirements and you code to > them. Perhaps security wasn't a requirement. Though if something as bad > as this (allowing users to get to a command prompt or a GUI) got through to > a customer I would seriously suspect the company had little or no quality > checking. But as I pointed out there are a lot of photos of crashed and > hacked ATMs. a friend who used to work for them says that their ATM work has lower quality control standards than their voting machines I might have a lead on a Diebold "debugging keyboard" From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 13:18:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:18:13 -0800 Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200801071800.m07I0J74089833@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801071800.m07I0J74089833@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47820A75.12783.38BBF74D@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 13:31:52 -0800 (PST) From: Chris M > you thanks > > what's a grid? A company in Fremont, CA that manufactured laptops, acquired by Tandy and utterly destroyed by their incompetence. http://pages.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/Compass/ Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 7 13:11:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:11:02 -0800 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <200801071800.m07I0J74089833@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801071800.m07I0J74089833@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <478208C6.3356.38B5635B@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. > > Input character > print it > loop Only barely possibly the cheapest. A $2 PIC or AVR or even 8051- family chip can do the same job for a fraction of the power and space and noise. And the code is out there--I've seen code for getting PS/2 keyboard data into both PICs and AVRs. The output side would be a piece of soup. And a PIC could be considered "retro"; certainly an 8051 would be. Both are descended from mid-70's chip designs. But to answer an earlier question--no, a simple serial-in, parallel- out shift register won't do the job with a PS/2 keyboard--the interface has a bidirectional protocol--it just doesn't blindly send out scan codes. Cheers, Chuck From mail at g-lenerz.de Mon Jan 7 13:22:20 2008 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:22:20 +0100 Subject: SGI Crimson In-Reply-To: <657247c939239be12c10e96196222161@valleyimplants.com> References: <657247c939239be12c10e96196222161@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <1307044931.20080107202220@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, January 5, 2008, 7:51:11 PM, Scott wrote: > Most likely. 13W3 outputs do indicate either Entry or Express graphics, > and the badge indicates "Elan" (though Crimsons did have an Extreme > option). Reality Engine does also comes with 13W3 connector. Typical Elan frontpanel: http://storage.g-lenerz.de/images/sgistuff/crimson/1301-reup-elan-connectors.jpg Typical Reality Engine frontpanel: http://storage.g-lenerz.de/images/sgistuff/crimson/1301-reup-re-connectors.jpg I assume the Entry configuration has 13W3 and HD15 "VGA" connectors (similar to the board used on the Indigo). -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From mail at g-lenerz.de Mon Jan 7 13:26:20 2008 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:26:20 +0100 Subject: SGI Crimson (was:13W3-3BNC cable) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801050925n2a68cd01wcbfb2a0bd2af23c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801050925n2a68cd01wcbfb2a0bd2af23c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <388097084.20080107202620@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, January 5, 2008, 6:25:29 PM, Jason wrote: > I got an internal cdrom recogzined last night. The only Irix distro I > have now is 6.5. Will the Crimson at least load fx from that? It was > acting like it couldn't even find the file, though, giving some scsi > errors if I booted into the hdd's fx and tried 'ls dksc(....)" on the > CD. I tried an Apple CD600i and a Toshiba model which was listed in > the SGI cdrom survey. Of course, they could be bad drives, who knows. > Too many variables! The drive should be configured to start with a default blocksize of 512 bytes. I'm not sure the Crimson sends the appropriate commands on it's own during startup. Older SGIs don't, newer do. Drives that work like a charm on SGI are the 32x or 40x UltraPlex drives by Plextor. These do have a blocksize jumper and I've got them to work on most hardware I own. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:40:58 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:40:58 -0600 Subject: SGI Crimson In-Reply-To: <1307044931.20080107202220@g-lenerz.de> References: <657247c939239be12c10e96196222161@valleyimplants.com> <1307044931.20080107202220@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <51ea77730801071140i5970145cyd8999a09d128593b@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 1:22 PM, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > Reality Engine does also comes with 13W3 connector. > > Typical Elan frontpanel: > http://storage.g-lenerz.de/images/sgistuff/crimson/1301-reup-elan-connectors.jpg > > Typical Reality Engine frontpanel: > http://storage.g-lenerz.de/images/sgistuff/crimson/1301-reup-re-connectors.jpg > > I assume the Entry configuration has 13W3 and HD15 "VGA" connectors > (similar to the board used on the Indigo). Thanks for those - although in different slots, mine does look like the Elan, then. Dig all those BNCs on the RE board! From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:08:56 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:08:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can anyone ID this computer from the 80s? Message-ID: <443048.54771.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On the right, is it a computer, or just a dumb terminal? There's a printer and possibly floppies in the background, but where do they go? http://oldcomputers.net/temp/1980something.jpg Thanks- Steve. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 14:24:51 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 12:24:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can anyone ID this computer from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <443048.54771.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <721649.26987.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- steven stengel wrote: > On the right, is it a computer, or just a dumb > terminal? > There's a printer and possibly floppies in the > background, but where do they go? > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/1980something.jpg > > Thanks- > Steve. That's a Xerox 820-II. It's a CPM based computer, contained within the monitor enclosure. The floppy drive is an external unit. The one I have, the floppy drive is enclosed in a box along with a hard drive. The external box is about the same size as the computer/monitor itself. Here's some info. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=487 -Ian From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jan 7 14:30:45 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:30:45 +0000 Subject: Can anyone ID this computer from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <443048.54771.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/1/08 20:08, "steven stengel" wrote: > On the right, is it a computer, or just a dumb terminal? > There's a printer and possibly floppies in the background, but where do they > go? > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/1980something.jpg That's a Xerox word processor, the printer against the back wall and keyboard give it away. I'm not sure which model though... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Mon Jan 7 16:57:30 2008 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:57:30 +0000 Subject: OT: Re: Can anyone ID this computer from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <443048.54771.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <443048.54771.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6B7945F7-679A-4540-B42A-CCE1DE19390D@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 7 Jan 2008, at 20:08, steven stengel wrote: > On the right, is it a computer, or just a dumb terminal? > There's a printer and possibly floppies in the background, but > where do they go? > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/1980something.jpg OT: the moneybox / piggybank in this photo struck a very vivid chord in my memory - as a child in the 1970s I had one in exactly this distinctive style. Mine was in the shape of a beefeater, although I think my sister may have had one, too, in another design. A bit of Googling reveals that these were made by "Carlton Ware" and are also slightly collectable. A bit more Googling shows mine alongside some others: http://www.retroselect.com/Carlton%20Ware/Carlton%20Ware%205.htm but if you're interested you'll surely find others more similar to those in the photo. Stroller. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jan 7 17:16:49 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 23:16:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <794347.38103.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Interesting. Barclays has recently ditched the Woolwich name (after buying them years ago) and installed "new" ATM's outside the bank (Cambridge , UK). The screen and button layout is the same, but that's no guarantee it uses OS/2 and I'm no expert on ATM's either. I think I saw a crashed ATM years ago, but it's probably a once in a lifetime thing... unless you hover around them 24/7 :) Happy New Year, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk madodel wrote: I finally found two images of an ATM with an OS/2 error message. One has a TRAP screen http://www.hotfad.com/?title=Image:ATM_OS2_Crash.jpg It was a TRAP 000e which can be caused by bad RAM. From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Jan 7 17:53:00 2008 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:53:00 -0600 Subject: help GridPad 2050SL Message-ID: <4782BB5C.5090905@centurytel.net> I just pulled my GridPad 2050SL out of the garage, fired it up, and it worked fine, for about 15 minutes. Then the screen started to fade, adjusted contrast and brightness, worked for a few minutes then nothing, just the backlight. Let it set for a few minutes, it fired up, but quickly back to the blank screen, with a quicker fade. Any suggestions on what to check? It has been in storage for the past 4 years, no climate control, so anything is possible. Probably heat related component failure or solder joint, but where to look. Nothing found on the web. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 7 17:51:24 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:51:24 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <20080107085318.K58825@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080107085318.K58825@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200801071851.25109.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 January 2008 11:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. > > Input character > print it > loop There was some project article in Byte way back when, by Steve Ciarcia, which provided a peecee-type keyboard input (AT rather than PS/2 but that shouldn't make that much difference). The circuit to deal with this was very simple and elegant, though I can't remember any more just how it was done. He didn't use a UART or similar, though, just a couple of MSI chips. And I remember thinking then how it wouldn't be all that hard to stuff an eprom between the output of that circuit (which gave you keycodes rather than characters) and have it spit out ASCII. Perhaps one of these days I'll run across the article again. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 7 18:51:21 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:51:21 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <478208C6.3356.38B5635B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801071800.m07I0J74089833@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <19DFA557740@dunfield.com> > > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) > > From: Fred Cisin > > > It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. > > > > Input character > > print it > > loop > > Only barely possibly the cheapest. A $2 PIC or AVR or even 8051- > family chip can do the same job for a fraction of the power and space > and noise. And the code is out there--I've seen code for getting > PS/2 keyboard data into both PICs and AVRs. The output side would be > a piece of soup. > > And a PIC could be considered "retro"; certainly an 8051 would be. > Both are descended from mid-70's chip designs. > > But to answer an earlier question--no, a simple serial-in, parallel- > out shift register won't do the job with a PS/2 keyboard--the > interface has a bidirectional protocol--it just doesn't blindly send > out scan codes. If anyone is interested, I have a very small bit of 8051 code which reads an attached PC keyboard, providing the scan codes over an RS-232 link. It also supports commands to set LEDs on/off etc. I specifically avoided using the P1 line in my design (full 8-bits parallel I/O available even on an 8031), so these are free, making it very trivial to modify this to output parallel instead of serial - it would also be very easy to add a translate table and recognition of shift/ctrl modifiers so that it would output fully decided ASCII. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon Jan 7 18:13:51 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:13:51 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080107103549.0559a1f8@mail.threedee.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20080107103549.0559a1f8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4782C03F.6000300@ptdprolog.net> John Foust wrote: > At 10:32 AM 1/7/2008, madodel wrote: >> There are over 140,000 photos of ATM machines and quite a few of them with crashed or hacked windows, on the internet according to Google. > > Hmm. There are 140,000 photos that match ("crashed" or "ATM"). > Not quite the same meaning. That would be true if that was what I said, but what I said was "There are over 140,000 photos of ATM machines" and "and quite a few of them with crashed or hacked windows". and my Google image search for that was first "+ATM +machine" then a search on "+ATM +crash" which resulted in about 1800, many of which had nothing to do with ATMs. Unless something has changed, Google makes any word with a "+" prepended a required wrd in the search. To preclude a word prepend a "-" to it. The whole point was that there are a lot of photos of ATM machines on the internet, irregardless of the exact numbers, its still in the thousands. what is truly weird are some of the photos of how people have hacked ATMs. I found one where they managed to get media player running on a Diebold ATM. > > I was once in a warehouse of dead ATMs and scrapped ATM boards, and I was > somewhat surprised to see they used laptop hard drives. > That was the main impetus to dump OS/2 in favor of windows. i was told they use fairly common components to build the insides of ATMs and IBM didn't want to support newer hardware any more. To me its a waste to be running a dual core CPU on an ATM when a Pentium would suffice. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands: http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 7 19:05:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:05:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <794347.38103.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <794347.38103.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080107170505.X86133@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, Andrew Burton wrote: > I think I saw a crashed ATM years ago, but it's probably a once in a > lifetime thing... unless you hover around them 24/7 :) If your banks switch to Diebold, then you might get a lot more chances to see one :-) From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 7 19:12:20 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:12:20 -0600 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <200801071851.25109.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20080107085318.K58825@shell.lmi.net> <200801071851.25109.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4782CDF4.1040101@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 07 January 2008 11:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. >> >> Input character >> print it >> loop >> > > There was some project article in Byte way back when, by Steve Ciarcia, > which provided a peecee-type keyboard input (AT rather than PS/2 but that > shouldn't make that much difference). The circuit to deal with this was very > simple and elegant, though I can't remember any more just how it was done. > He didn't use a UART or similar, though, just a couple of MSI chips. And I > remember thinking then how it wouldn't be all that hard to stuff an eprom > between the output of that circuit (which gave you keycodes rather than > characters) and have it spit out ASCII. > > Perhaps one of these days I'll run across the article again. > > If you didn't care about sending codes back to the keyboard, then you'd just need an 11 bit shift register The previously mentioned http://eece.ksu.edu/~eece696/beta/digital/A/stop.htm is almost there, it just needs 1 more F/F 2 LS174s would work for the F/Fs. the CLK line needs to be inverted, but you can probably get away without doing it. A divide by 11 counter (LS163 with and AND on bit 0,1 and 3 driving CLR) should do the trick. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 7 20:07:22 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:07:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can anyone ID this computer from the 80s? In-Reply-To: <721649.26987.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <721649.26987.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- steven stengel wrote: > > > On the right, is it a computer, or just a dumb > > terminal? > > There's a printer and possibly floppies in the > > background, but where do they go? > > > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/1980something.jpg > > > > Thanks- > > Steve. > > That's a Xerox 820-II. It's a CPM based computer, > contained within the monitor enclosure. The floppy > drive is an external unit. The one I have, the floppy > drive is enclosed in a box along with a hard drive. > The external box is about the same size as the > computer/monitor itself. That external box appears to be sitting to the right of the monitor, just behind that weird head-shaped thing. I'm impressed that it was able to get so far away from the monitor. The cable is usually just long enough for it to sit directly to the side, not kitty-corner like it is in that picture -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 7 20:10:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can anyone ID this computer from the 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <721649.26987.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > That's a Xerox 820-II. It's a CPM based computer, > > contained within the monitor enclosure. The floppy > > drive is an external unit. The one I have, the floppy > > drive is enclosed in a box along with a hard drive. > > The external box is about the same size as the > > computer/monitor itself. > > That external box appears to be sitting to the right of the monitor, just > behind that weird head-shaped thing. I'm impressed that it was able to > get so far away from the monitor. The cable is usually just long enough > for it to sit directly to the side, not kitty-corner like it is in that > picture Whoops... I mean that the external box is the disk drive unit. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Jan 7 21:50:13 2008 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:50:13 -0600 Subject: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk adapter Message-ID: <4782F2F5.2060908@centurytel.net> http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adapter.html The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and write data to your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy disk drive. Sale Price $9.99 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 7 22:03:05 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk adapter In-Reply-To: <4782F2F5.2060908@centurytel.net> References: <4782F2F5.2060908@centurytel.net> Message-ID: > http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adapter.html > The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and write data to > your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy disk drive. > Sale Price $9.99 Now that's not an interface I expected to see! I wonder if they ever made a 5.25" version. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 7 22:08:43 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:08:43 -0600 Subject: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk adapter In-Reply-To: <4782F2F5.2060908@centurytel.net> References: <4782F2F5.2060908@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <4782F74B.4020002@mdrconsult.com> Choctaw Bob wrote: > http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adapter.html > > The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and write data > to your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy disk drive. I'd be a lot more interested if it didn't require a 486-or-better and was read-write on a Mac. Those 2 things suggest to me that there's software required, meaning all the machines I have that need that can't use it. Doc From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 22:12:15 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:12:15 -0600 Subject: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk adapter In-Reply-To: <4782F74B.4020002@mdrconsult.com> References: <4782F2F5.2060908@centurytel.net> <4782F74B.4020002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801072012y4988685cw1c3f811f2413552a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2008 10:08 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'd be a lot more interested if it didn't require a 486-or-better and > was read-write on a Mac. Those 2 things suggest to me that there's > software required, meaning all the machines I have that need that can't > use it. Yeah I was just going to say that....I'd want one to move files to my 486 laptop running DOS. Doubt they made a DOS driver, though... From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 8 00:32:59 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 01:32:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4782C03F.6000300@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20080107103549.0559a1f8@mail.threedee.com> <4782C03F.6000300@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <200801080640.BAA00851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Google makes any word with a "+" prepended a required wrd in the > search. To preclude a word prepend a "-" to it. The latter doesn't work - or at least, it didn't a while ago. I was searching for some music typesetting software called "SMUT". I'm sure you can imagine the false positives; I started adding terms like -pussy -beaver to my search to try to suppress them, which simply didn't work. And when I reported it to Google, did they fix their bug? No; they added "typesetting" to the list of search targets that suppressed the pr0n page hits when searching for "smut" (apparently regardless of the search including terms explicitly incidating that the seeker does not want them). They didn't seem to grasp the idea of actually obeying the user's stop words, presumably preferring to make users write to the directly to be able to find what they're looking for. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:16:47 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:16:47 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200801080640.BAA00851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <20080106195318.C34110@shell.lmi.net> <4781C5C5.6090005@garlic.com> <47825437.1000209@ptdprolog.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20080107103549.0559a1f8@mail.threedee.com> <4782C03F.6000300@ptdprolog.net> <200801080640.BAA00851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4783235F.2000800@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Google makes any word with a "+" prepended a required wrd in the >> search. To preclude a word prepend a "-" to it. > > The latter doesn't work - or at least, it didn't a while ago. I was > searching for some music typesetting software called "SMUT". I'm sure > you can imagine the false positives; I started adding terms like -pussy > -beaver to my search to try to suppress them, which simply didn't work. > > And when I reported it to Google, did they fix their bug? No; they > added "typesetting" to the list of search targets that suppressed the > pr0n page hits when searching for "smut" (apparently regardless of the > search including terms explicitly incidating that the seeker does not > want them). They didn't seem to grasp the idea of actually obeying the > user's stop words, presumably preferring to make users write to the > directly to be able to find what they're looking for. If memory serves, Altavista DTRT. Peace... Sridhar From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 12:38:50 2008 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:38:50 -0500 Subject: MBASIC decompiler? Message-ID: Did/does such a thing exist? I've got a CP/M .COM file which I believe is BASCOM generated -- running 'strings' over it reveals the line "ALREADY MODIFIED MBASIC 5.21 INTERPRETER" and the initial output when you run it includes what appears to be the original BASIC source file name and the string "COMPILED VERSION". Is there a tool to recover a reasonable facsimile of the original BASIC source? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 From elazzerini at interfree.it Mon Jan 7 12:39:14 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:39:14 +0100 Subject: Micro cornucopia magazine scannered Message-ID: <47470E0E01F9AE06@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Hi at all, please excuse me for my not correct english, i'm writing from Pisa (Italy). Is there anyone that have any copies of this old magazine already scannered? This could help me to understand better all about around this board. Thanks so much to all that would help me giving all kind of info, links and news. Enrico From elazzerini at interfree.it Mon Jan 7 15:25:16 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:25:16 +0100 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter Message-ID: <47470E0E01FB543A@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) But to answer an earlier question--no, a simple serial-in, parallel- out shift register won't do the job with a PS/2 keyboard--the interface has a bidirectional protocol--it just doesn't blindly send out scan codes. Cheers, Chuck And then anybody has suggestion for a READY to USE black box? Input PS/2 Output D0 to D7 + Strobe signals Thank to all that will have all useful suggestions. Enrico From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 7 18:54:25 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:54:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat Message-ID: <388936.9237.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> very much strapped for cash. If you're interested, e-mail an offer off-list. I have to admit it's not going to go cheaply...snifful ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 20:20:48 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:20:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: A note on Keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <4781B99C.9060204@jbrain.com> References: <4781B99C.9060204@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > For those with machines that have a way to plug into the KB matrix and want > PS/2 keyboard support, I would suggest a derivative of C=Key > (www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/). It acts like an 8x12 keyboard matrix > to a vintage machine, no modifications to the machine are needed. As > currently laid out, it's designed to work with the CBM VIC/64/128 series > machines, but the source has been structured to allow easy retargeting to any > KB matrix up to 8x12. On the PS/2 side, it decodes all incoming data and can > send data to the PS/2 keyboard, such as resetting the KB and setting > indicator LEDs. > > And, source code is under GPL, as is the design. I'm always up for a > donation if you like the work, but I was once a starving collector too. Is anyone offering bare boards for this? -- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 09:34:50 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:34:50 -0800 Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <388936.9237.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <388936.9237.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > > very much strapped for cash. If you're interested, > e-mail an offer off-list. I have to admit it's not > going to go cheaply...snifful Hi That is too bad. I consider the Cat as one of the machines I'd be least likely to sell. Most had considered the CAT to be a closed system. Of course, this wasn't true. There was actually a development package one could get that included manuals on how to deal with the Forth inside. I'd found a copy of these in the Standford Special Collections Library. They are real fussy about copying but I spent several hours making notes. I've posted much of the information I've gathered on the DigiBarn site. I was mostly interested in connecting a HP printer to the machine since I didn't have one of the Canon printers. Besided the unique editor, the machine had the potential to be much more than was the final version that Canon released. Jef Raskin complained that by the time it made it to the market, it was stripped down. Because the cheap printer they sold with it didn't have proportional spacing, most believed that it couldn't handle it. Of course the code was in there ready to use with the right printer. Other compromises were made as well. The mother board has spots for another 256K of RAM. Looking at the disk drive, it seems to be a 400K single sided drive that the Cat only used 256K of. The processor is a 68K but the Forth inside is easy to work with since most any low level words a person could want to access hardware are all ready there. One can also write code for it directly in the editor and then simply compile the code into RAM. Since the machine keeps an image of the RAM on disk, one can either just save the source or keep the compiled code for other purposes. I've spent many hours of enjoyment exploring my Cat. I know there is much more that I've not dug into. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 8 10:58:52 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:58:52 -0600 Subject: A note on Keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: References: <4781B99C.9060204@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4783ABCC.6000507@jbrain.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > >> For those with machines that have a way to plug into the KB matrix >> and want PS/2 keyboard support, I would suggest a derivative of C=Key >> (www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key/). It acts like an 8x12 keyboard >> matrix to a vintage machine, no modifications to the machine are >> needed. As currently laid out, it's designed to work with the CBM >> VIC/64/128 series machines, but the source has been structured to >> allow easy retargeting to any KB matrix up to 8x12. On the PS/2 >> side, it decodes all incoming data and can send data to the PS/2 >> keyboard, such as resetting the KB and setting indicator LEDs. >> >> And, source code is under GPL, as is the design. I'm always up for a >> donation if you like the work, but I was once a starving collector too. > > Is anyone offering bare boards for this? > I am, as shown on the pics. They are not cheap, as I ran a prototype run, but I do have boards. If you're willing to wait, I am making a production run if interest warrants, and those boards will be much cheaper. I'm also interested in merging any other keyboard mappings people come up with. The firmware supports configuration of different layout variants via a config menu (Ctrl/Alt/BS puts the unit into config mode) Jim From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 8 14:30:53 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who's collection is that? Message-ID: View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top Gear". I'm not familiar with it. But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a hammer around all those vintage machines? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mwichary at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:46:55 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:46:55 -0800 Subject: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1debc0350801081246y1f1cd0fdl49c2787493829c3d@mail.gmail.com> It looks like the collection they have in Bletchley Park... http://picasaweb.google.com/mwichary/BletchleyPark Esp. this photo: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwichary/BletchleyPark/photo#5007045881138292738, although I was there a year and a half ago. Clarkson is actually pretty funny, usually. :) On Jan 8, 2008 12:30 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: > > http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html > > This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top > Gear". I'm not familiar with it. > > But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And > why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a > hammer around all those vintage machines? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > -- Marcin Wichary User interface designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 8 14:42:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:42:15 -0800 Subject: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk adapter In-Reply-To: <200801081537.m08Fb2Ns000980@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801081537.m08Fb2Ns000980@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47836FA7.5245.3E2F3BAD@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:50:13 -0600 > From: Choctaw Bob > http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adap > ter.html The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and > write data to your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy disk > drive. Sale Price $9.99 Dunno, but at that price, I couldn't resist ordering a couple. I'll pop one open to see what makes it tick. Note that the floppy is simply used as a coupling device--the gizmo requires installation of drivers. I'm particularly interested to see if those drivers will work with a USB drive (i.e. how general are they?)--the literature's not quite clear on that; only that it doesn't work with PC Card drives. Thanks for the link. The Smartdisk.com web site doesn't seem to be responding; let's hope it's temporary. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jan 8 15:09:03 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:09:03 +0000 Subject: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/1/08 20:30, "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > > View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: > > http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html > > This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top > Gear". I'm not familiar with it. It's an award-winning motoring show that polarises people's opinion on Clarkson. Some, like me, think he's great and everyone else thinks he's a > But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And > why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a > hammer around all those vintage machines? That's the old Block H museum at Bletchley Park and to be fair he's only smashing up a Tecra :) That room is now the Large Machine room of the new National Museum of Computing and we now have the entire run of H-Block which is the world's first purpose built computer room that housed the codebreaking Colossus machines from Jan 1944. Jules will be along soon to provide links etc that I can never remember! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:14:03 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:14:03 -0600 Subject: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: <1debc0350801081246y1f1cd0fdl49c2787493829c3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1debc0350801081246y1f1cd0fdl49c2787493829c3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4783E79B.1050507@gmail.com> Marcin Wichary wrote: > It looks like the collection they have in Bletchley Park... Yes it is/was, although that was before my time there, so the vid's at least four years old. First time I've seen it too - I had no idea anyone actually let him do that right next to any of the 'real' machines! :-( From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Jan 8 15:35:07 2008 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:35:07 +0000 Subject: S/360 update Message-ID: <1199828107.20866.25.camel@ljw.me.uk> I've just had a email from Bob Doran, who was one of my CompSci professors at Auckland University. It seems that they (AU Comp Sci) have the front panel from my 360 which they salvaged many years ago, and which is now becoming part of a lobby display. So at least now I know something about what happened to it, but I suspect that the rest of the system was scrapped. One part he's after for the panel is the centre Display Store Selection rotary switch dials (there are two parts to the rotary switch), so if anyone happens to know where there's a spare one, I'm sure he'd be grateful! (See the top picture at http://www.corestore.org/360.htm , thanks Mike!) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 16:21:57 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:21:57 -0700 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? Message-ID: In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground to open protocols. OK, googling brings up the link. "Network World" is the culprit: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 16:26:09 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:26:09 -0700 Subject: CDC GRID (Graphical Interactive Display) manual online Message-ID: OK, someone beat me to it (or saved me the trouble of scanning, not sure which :-) on the CDC manual. Hrm. Did someone scan and contribute to bitsavers and then sell it to me on ebay? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 8 17:07:07 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:07:07 -0500 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4784021B.5060604@atarimuseum.com> I was at I think the 1990 or 1991 New York Computer Show at Jacob Javitts and IBM had a booth setup with a ton of the small BA440 sized AS400's and they were streaming video across a network onto a presentation screen from one, running Novell on another, I thought perhaps they were running a derivative of OS/2 (but I'm not totally certain) and then running others with standard AS/400 apps on others. The IBM rep's were touting their abilities and DEC Vax's were mentioned several times during the course of casual conversations I overheard throughout the booth. They were really pushing the AS/400's as the end all, beat all workhorse machine. Curt Richard wrote: > In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical > list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally > ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed > that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. > > Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. > > They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described > in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their > proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground > to open protocols. > > OK, googling brings up the link. "Network World" is the culprit: > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 8 17:13:32 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:13:32 +0000 Subject: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk adapter In-Reply-To: <47836FA7.5245.3E2F3BAD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801081537.m08Fb2Ns000980@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47836FA7.5245.3E2F3BAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4784039C.1080302@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/01/2008 20:42, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adap >> ter.html The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and >> write data to your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy disk >> drive. Sale Price $9.99 > > Dunno, but at that price, I couldn't resist ordering a couple. I'll > pop one open to see what makes it tick. Note that the floppy is > simply used as a coupling device--the gizmo requires installation of > drivers. > > I'm particularly interested to see if those drivers will work with a > USB drive (i.e. how general are they?)--the literature's not quite > clear on that; only that it doesn't work with PC Card drives. I remember those, but they're quite old. I was interested at the time because I was was looking for a way to read cards from a digital camera, but I rapidly discovered that it only worked with one particular version of Windows (95, I think) and the support was non-existent. Absolutely no way to make it work with Linux/Irix/Solaris/MS-DOS which was what I wanted. So I decided to get a Sony camera that took 3.5" floppies instead (that'll date it for you). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 8 17:29:29 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:29:29 -0000 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002201c8524e$51c8cce0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Richard wrote: > In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical > list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally > ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed > that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. > > Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. The original "VAX killer" was the IBM 9370 (or so I was told when I was working on a mixed DEC/IBM site back in the 1990s). I've never heard an AS400 described that way either, but by then I was firmly entrenched at DEC sites (and then DEC) so I wouldn't have been in a position to hear such gossip anyway. Wouldn't surprise me to hear the phrase re-used though. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1213 - Release Date: 07/01/2008 09:14 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 8 17:50:12 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:50:12 -0800 Subject: CDC GRID (Graphical Interactive Display) manual online Message-ID: <47840C34.8070207@bitsavers.org> The scan was from a copy in the CHM archives. Do you have the same revision of this document? From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Jan 8 12:53:46 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:53:46 +0000 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <388936.9237.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6bpm1d$55ejur@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht ml Cheers, Wizard From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Tue Jan 8 17:54:15 2008 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:54:15 +0000 Subject: ST412 controller cables Message-ID: <47840D27.9070307@poggs.co.uk> Hello! In an attempt to resurrect an old Mitsubishi MR535R (RLL) drive, I managed to pick up an ST11M controller by accident - it was advertised on eBay as "MFM or RLL". Two things: 1) Does anyone have a spare set of control and data cables? I'm willing to pay for 'em, or visit Maplin for components to make up a set, since they're probably easy to make with IDC connectors and ribbon cable. 2) Does anyone happen to have a suitable RLL controller they're looking to get rid of, or could let me have access to one for a few hours? The 60Mb drive possibly contains some very old RM Net 3.1 software which I'd like to archive off, as there doesn't seem to be anyone at all - even at RM - who has any software left. I'd be happy to travel (within reason, I'm in London, UK) and exchange use of a controller card for beer/alcohol :) Cheers Peter -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jan 8 18:04:44 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:04:44 -0500 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <6bpm1d$55ejur@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> Message-ID: OMG, that is soooo amazing. Proof positive that you can make anything with the proper tools. Mesmerizing. On 1/8/08 1:53 PM, "jpero at sympatico.ca" wrote: > This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. > Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht > ml > > Cheers, Wizard Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 8 18:11:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:11:00 -0500 Subject: Who's collection is that? Message-ID: <200801090011.m090BUYG096960@keith.ezwind.net> Will read when I get home ... But Top Gear is a great show. Also ... "whose" ... you dumbass. :) -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail Subj: Who's collection is that? Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 3:44 pm Size: 821 bytes To: Classic Computers Mailing List View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top Gear". I'm not familiar with it. But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a hammer around all those vintage machines? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 8 18:34:48 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:34:48 -0000 Subject: Who says you can't make your own vacuum tubes? In-Reply-To: <200801090011.m090BUYG096960@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002901c85257$71db9ef0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> This from Make (via slashdot): http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html There seems to be a bunch of paperwork on his site too (assuming you count PDF as "paperwork"). Won't be too long before someone is building 7400 TTL replacements chips in a garage somewhere! Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1213 - Release Date: 07/01/2008 09:14 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 18:37:42 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:37:42 -0700 Subject: CDC GRID (Graphical Interactive Display) manual online In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:50:12 -0800. <47840C34.8070207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <47840C34.8070207 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The scan was from a copy in the CHM archives. > > Do you have the same revision of this document? I'll check the document numbers, but it looks identical, complete with the same provisional hand-written notes and whatnot. The two short addendums to the manual are not present in that scan, so I can scan those and upload them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 8 18:40:59 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:40:59 -0500 Subject: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: <200801090011.m090BUYG096960@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <010e01c85258$4f6248a0$f750f945@evan> Crap ... I'm the dumbass ... meant to reply to Sellam directly. -----Original Message----- From: Evan [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 7:11 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? Will read when I get home ... But Top Gear is a great show. Also ... "whose" ... you dumbass. :) -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail Subj: Who's collection is that? Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 3:44 pm Size: 821 bytes To: Classic Computers Mailing List View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top Gear". I'm not familiar with it. But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a hammer around all those vintage machines? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 8 19:16:58 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:16:58 -0800 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? References: Message-ID: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described > in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their > proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground > to open protocols. There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' mean, and how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at least above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in the networking world in those days as it does today. There was also resistance to open protocols at the customer level if those customers were already ensconced in the proprietary networks. A lot of people were looking only at their immediate needs rather than seeing the future of an 'interconnected world'. (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party producing a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. To my recollection, IBM was even later in taking up TCP/IP, although one might have to distinguish between mainframe and PC stuff. Put another way, DEC and IBM didn't support TCP/IP until they 'had to' (as in market forces). From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 8 19:27:20 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:27:20 -0600 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478422F8.3060100@brutman.com> I don't know if IBM created the AS/400 as a VAX killer. I doubt it. The AS/400 is a direct descendent of the S/38. The S/38 was designed and built by the people who brought you the S/36, S/34, and earlier machines. The IBM plant that built those machines and related equipment has been in Rochester MN since the late 1950s. Both series of machines competed in the mid-range market. I don't think that IBM has 'won' the mid-range market with the AS/400 and iSeries. I think it is just the last player standing in that market, with Unix machines having done serious damage to all of the players. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 8 21:20:43 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:20:43 -0700 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:16:58 -0800. <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' mean, a nd > how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that > argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at least > above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in the > networking world in those days as it does today. But wasn't DEC instrumental in helping ethernet succeed? See the history section of . Or am I confusing ethernet (physical layer) with tcp/ip (protocol layer)? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 21:32:50 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:32:50 -0500 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: References: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7d3530220801081932j497f341bw5be32cfc51fd2dbf@mail.gmail.com> On 1/8/08, Richard wrote: > > In article <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca>, > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' mean, a > nd > > how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that > > argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own > > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at least > > above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in the > > networking world in those days as it does today. > > But wasn't DEC instrumental in helping ethernet succeed? See the > history section of . Or am I > confusing ethernet (physical layer) with tcp/ip (protocol layer)? DECnet runs over ethernet. Plan 9's IL protocol (used instead of tcp in the early days) runs over ethernet. I think you're confusing physical layer with protocol layer :) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 8 22:11:11 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:11:11 -0800 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? References: Message-ID: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > In article <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca>, > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' mean, a > nd > > how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that > > argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own > > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at least > > above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in the > > networking world in those days as it does today. > > But wasn't DEC instrumental in helping ethernet succeed? See the > history section of . Or am I > confusing ethernet (physical layer) with tcp/ip (protocol layer)? Yes, ethernet was precisely what I had in mind as I added that little "at least above the link level" clause to my comment. Ethernet is quite distinct from TCP/IP, it's just another link type as far as IP is concerned. DEC latched on to ethernet quite early to use as a (choice of) link layer for DECnet. It is kind of funny that manufacturers could agree on physical & frame level stuff (RS232,HDLC,ethernet,etc.) but then had to go their own way in the higher layers. Or one might say that agreement started at the physical level, and it just took time to go up the stack getting agreement along the way. (Or else it's just easier to be proprietary in software than hardware.) I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers around, until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was called the DEQNA?). Youngsters out there should be grateful they don't have to wire their home machines together with thick-wire... From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 22:48:35 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:48:35 -0800 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801082048v4bc0edb3iedef778f37cb4b91@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 8, 2008 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers around, > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was called > the DEQNA?). DEQNA = Q-bus Ethernet (M7504), replaced by DELQA (M7516) and DESQA (M3127) Maybe you meant DELNI = Digital Ethernet Local Network Interconnect, which had 8 local AUI ports. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 8 22:46:53 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:46:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200801090451.XAA07683@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at > least above the link level. In Montreal, in the days before Teh Internet, each of the four universities here was using IP internally, but had no IP connectivity outside themselves. Then DEC, presumably trying to earn some kind of PR brownie points in support of higher education or some such, donated routers and leased lines to tie them together - but the routers were DECnet-only. (I proceeded to use IP/DECnet dual-stack Ultrix machines to turn this DECnet-only infrastructure into an IP transport...I don't know how DEC felt about this nose-thumbing at their attempt to lock us into their proprietary way, but the CRIM treated it as a feature, so it would have been impolitic for DEC to grumble publicly.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 8 22:52:06 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:52:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200801090454.XAA07715@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' > (although the transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct > in recalling it was called the DEQNA?). No. The DEQNA is a Q-bus Ethernet card. (I don't remember DEC's name for their AUI hub, but I know the DEQNA.) > Youngsters out there should be grateful they don't have to wire their > home machines together with thick-wire... Aye. Thicknet was difficult to run and (at least in my exprience) the transceiver/cable connection was horribly finicky. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 8 23:22:31 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:22:31 -0800 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? References: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> <1e1fc3e90801082048v4bc0edb3iedef778f37cb4b91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47845A18.E9CAB113@cs.ubc.ca> Glen Slick wrote: > > On Jan 8, 2008 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of > > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers around, > > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the > > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was called > > the DEQNA?). > > DEQNA = Q-bus Ethernet (M7504), replaced by DELQA (M7516) and DESQA (M3127) > > Maybe you meant DELNI = Digital Ethernet Local Network Interconnect, > which had 8 local AUI ports. Thanks for the correction. I think I've heard "DEQNA" in recent years and it was supplanting the memory of "DELNI", which I haven't heard in years. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 01:12:07 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:12:07 -0500 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <200801090454.XAA07715@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> <200801090454.XAA07715@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <478473C7.3010004@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> [...] until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' >> (although the transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct >> in recalling it was called the DEQNA?). > > No. The DEQNA is a Q-bus Ethernet card. (I don't remember DEC's name > for their AUI hub, but I know the DEQNA.) DELNI? Peace... Sridhar From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Jan 8 03:27:17 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:27:17 +0100 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <4782CDF4.1040101@jbrain.com> References: <20080107085318.K58825@shell.lmi.net> <200801071851.25109.rtellason@verizon.net> <4782CDF4.1040101@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <478341F5.5080803@iais.fraunhofer.de> Jim Brain schrieb: > If you didn't care about sending codes back to the keyboard, then > you'd just need an 11 bit shift register > > The previously mentioned > http://eece.ksu.edu/~eece696/beta/digital/A/stop.htm is almost there, > it just needs 1 more F/F > > 2 LS174s would work for the F/Fs. the CLK line needs to be inverted, > but you can probably get away without doing it. > > A divide by 11 counter (LS163 with and AND on bit 0,1 and 3 driving > CLR) should do the trick. > The price you then pay is additional effort in the target machine to parse and decode make/break codes of the keyboard which is usually significantly more expensive than a $2 PIC or ATMEL. Think of an Apple-II that wants certain ASCII codes at the parallel keyboard input. You don't want to modify the system (e)prom to convert the raw codes returned by the keyboard - no space there for tables. You also don't want to add a simple conversion eprom at the shift register output to translate the codes into ASCII as this won't deal with the break (release key) stuff; it's possible to "ground" unwanted code by translating them to e.g. 0xff and then use a 7430 to suppress the strobe signal but yet another circuit then. No, I am not yet at a point to use a microcontroller just to blink a LED, which have been done with two cross coupled transistors in the past, but a PIC is meanwhile the more compact, easier, more flexible solution to "convert-from-A-to-B" problems. Regards Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 8 08:35:25 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:35:25 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter Message-ID: <0JUB00DFXXUR16Z2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:51:24 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Monday 07 January 2008 11:54, Fred Cisin wrote: >> It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. >> >> Input character >> print it >> loop > >There was some project article in Byte way back when, by Steve Ciarcia, >which provided a peecee-type keyboard input (AT rather than PS/2 but that >shouldn't make that much difference). The circuit to deal with this was very >simple and elegant, though I can't remember any more just how it was done. It used a Z80 and a PPI rom and ram. At the time that was a easy small design but still far more cpu than needed. The task is PIC or 8048 sized. Fornm the At days to current the PS2 keyboard is handled with an 8042 (discrete or embedded) which is a slave bus verion of the 8048.. There are PIC designs for this out there as well as Atmel ATmega. Check their sites. >He didn't use a UART or similar, though, just a couple of MSI chips. And I >remember thinking then how it wouldn't be all that hard to stuff an eprom >between the output of that circuit (which gave you keycodes rather than >characters) and have it spit out ASCII. Ah, you do you handle the key down codes and the key up codes? > >Perhaps one of these days I'll run across the article again. I have it burried somewhere. It does not translate well to an PS2 keyboard as the XT keyboard used for that has slower IO rate and different keyscan. It would be a pain to do in simple logic as you need at least a state machine. Allison >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 8 08:53:38 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:53:38 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter Message-ID: <0JUB001SDYAROHQB@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:51:21 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) >> > From: Fred Cisin >> >> > It would seem that the cheapest way to do it is a discardable PC. >> > >> > Input character >> > print it >> > loop Not cheap and noisy. You could yank the 8042 used in 386 through early P1 boards as the first level interface. But that does not translate the scan code to ASCII serial or parallel wich is what most people would like. >> Only barely possibly the cheapest. A $2 PIC or AVR or even 8051- >> family chip can do the same job for a fraction of the power and space >> and noise. And the code is out there--I've seen code for getting >> PS/2 keyboard data into both PICs and AVRs. The output side would be >> a piece of soup. Absolutely. Even an 8048 (8035 or 8748) pull from a older keyboard is more than enough CPU for the job. The DEC LK20X (30x/40x) series keyboards used an 8051, pull the EA line high and it's a 8031 (add a latch and external rom). >> >> And a PIC could be considered "retro"; certainly an 8051 would be. >> Both are descended from mid-70's chip designs. >> >> But to answer an earlier question--no, a simple serial-in, parallel- >> out shift register won't do the job with a PS/2 keyboard--the >> interface has a bidirectional protocol--it just doesn't blindly send >> out scan codes. > >If anyone is interested, I have a very small bit of 8051 code which reads an attached PC keyboard, >providing the scan codes over an RS-232 link. It also supports commands to set LEDs on/off etc. I'd be interested. PS2 in and ASCII serial (or parallel with strobe, output only) out is most useful in vintage designs. Most vintage machines do not need bidirectional control but the local CPU (8051) would have to echo the state of the NUM and shiftlock keys to the LEDs and do code conversion accordingly. Allison > >I specifically avoided using the P1 line in my design (full 8-bits >parallel I/O available even on an 8031), so these are free, making it very trivial to modify this >to output parallel instead of serial - it >would also be very easy to add a translate table and recognition of >shift/ctrl modifiers so that it would output fully decided ASCII. > > >Dave > > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From elazzerini at interfree.it Tue Jan 8 14:48:48 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 21:48:48 +0100 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter Message-ID: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) I report each part of different emails whit my question: From: "Roy J. Tellason" There was some project article in Byte way back when, by Steve Ciarcia, which provided a peecee-type keyboard input (AT rather than PS/2 but that shouldn't make that much difference). The circuit to deal with this was very simple and elegant, though I can't remember any more just how it was done. He didn't use a UART or similar, though, just a couple of MSI chips. And I remember thinking then how it wouldn't be all that hard to stuff an eprom between the output of that circuit (which gave you keycodes rather than characters) and have it spit out ASCII. Perhaps one of these days I'll run across the article again. Roy, here would be the list of articles by Steve Ciarcia http://www.devili.iki.fi/library/author/203.en.html May you try to find the exact article? Enrico From: "Dave Dunfield" If anyone is interested, I have a very small bit of 8051 code which reads an attached PC keyboard, providing the scan codes over an RS-232 link. It also supports commands to set LEDs on/off etc. I specifically avoided using the P1 line in my design (full 8-bits parallel I/O available even on an 8031), so these are free, making it very trivial to modify this to output parallel instead of serial - it would also be very easy to add a translate table and recognition of shift/ctrl modifiers so that it would output fully decided ASCII. Dave , have you just the code or even the circuit PCB layout? And have you an idea to how to transform the circuit from serial to parallel? Enrico From: Jim Brain If you didn't care about sending codes back to the keyboard, then you'd just need an 11 bit shift register. The previously mentioned http://eece.ksu.edu/~eece696/beta/digital/A/stop.htm is almost there, it just needs 1 more F/F 2 LS174s would work for the F/Fs. the CLK line needs to be inverted, but you can probably get away without doing it. A divide by 11 counter (LS163 with and AND on bit 0,1 and 3 driving CLR) should do the trick. Jim, i need just this, I don't care to see the caps lock led turning on or off!! But the schematic indicated to that link, it appear to be a theoric schematic. I really have not time to testing circuit or verify how it works. So anybody has an idea of a pratical circuit working? Thanks Enrico From: Holger Veit No, I am not yet at a point to use a microcontroller just to blink a LED, which have been done with two cross coupled transistors in the past, but a PIC is meanwhile the more compact, easier, more flexible solution to "convert-from-A-to-B" problems. Holger, it's exactly what i'm looking for. So may you give your help? What PIC to use? I have a PS2 Keyboard and when I press the character A I need to have the binary code 41H that means 0100 0001B on eight wires plus a strobe line. Only in this direction. Is it possible? Thanks Enrico From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 14:55:46 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:55:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <889491.53288.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Dwight, being that I've yet to open mine up, is there a.n.y proprietary logic on the mobo? Being that it was released in 1987, I can't imagine there not being something - even a PAL or whatnot. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 9 01:46:49 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:46:49 -0600 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <478341F5.5080803@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <20080107085318.K58825@shell.lmi.net> <200801071851.25109.rtellason@verizon.net> <4782CDF4.1040101@jbrain.com> <478341F5.5080803@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <47847BE9.7090406@jbrain.com> Holger Veit wrote: > No, I am not yet at a point to use a microcontroller just to blink a > LED, which have been done with two cross coupled transistors in the > past, but a PIC is meanwhile the more compact, easier, more flexible > solution to "convert-from-A-to-B" problems. I completely agree, but the OP was interested in an MSI way to get the data from the KB. The MSI solution would have problems if the shifting got off by a bit or two, among others things. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 9 01:59:19 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:59:19 -0600 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) References: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Message-ID: <47847ED7.8010804@jbrain.com> Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > > Jim, > > i need just this, I don't care to see the caps lock led turning on or off!! > > But the schematic indicated to that link, it appear to be a theoric > schematic. > > I really have not time to testing circuit or verify how it works. > > So anybody has an idea of a pratical circuit working? > Yes, the schematic won't work as-is (it's only 10 bits, and PS/2 uses 11 (start, parity, stop, 8 bits) and as Holger notes, it just delivers PS/2 Set 2 scan codes, which are horrid (voice of recent experience) But, the design I already sent you will do exactly what you wish. One Atmel Mega8 (or a Tiny24 would work, though I don't have any here to test the code). Is there something else you're looking for? I modified the PS2Encoder design on the web site (http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/PS2Encoder) to offer a truly generic one (all data lines come to a 2x13 header, and the PS/2 connector is already on the board.) I know the design works, as I tested the code before I sent someone on the list a version for a FlashWriter II KB interface. > Holger, > > it's exactly what i'm looking for. So may you give your help? What PIC to > use? > > I have a PS2 Keyboard and when I press the character A I need to have the > > binary code 41H that means 0100 0001B on eight wires plus a strobe line. > > Only in this direction. Is it possible? > > Thanks > > Enrico > Dave's code will work (though you'll need to write some additional 8051 code to do the parallel output, should be trivial. My code will work, and outputs 41H when a A is sent (Actually, I think it sends lowercase a, but I can change the mappings in a few minutes if that's an issue) Holger is speaking theoretically, without any specific design in mind, I believe. Jim From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 9 02:02:45 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:02:45 -0000 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <200801090451.XAA07683@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <003201c85296$060804e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> der Mouse wrote: > but the routers were DECnet-only. There were very few multi-protocol anythings in those days ... > (I proceeded to use IP/DECnet dual-stack Ultrix machines > to turn this DECnet-only infrastructure into an IP transport...I don't > know how DEC felt about this nose-thumbing at their attempt to lock us > into their proprietary way To which proprietary protocol do you refer? Obviously not DECnet since the specs for DECnet Phase IV were always available on gatekeeper.dec.com. I'm almost certain that before that the Phase III specs were also available (but Phase III was considerably more limited and I don't think you'd have been using routers for that). Was it KiNet who did DECnet for Solaris? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1213 - Release Date: 07/01/2008 09:14 From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jan 9 03:38:08 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:38:08 -0000 Subject: Who's collection is that? References: <200801090722.m097MKFH032235@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003601c852a3$58741a90$911ca8c0@mss.local> Its the collection at Bletchley Park, the WW2 codebreaking site http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/edu/collect/computer.rhtm Enigma, Bombe, Colossus and all that. I need to get down there sometime and drool over the Elliott 803. Jeremy Clarkson dos the BBC2 Top Gear motoring program, used to be a serious motoring program but in recent years has turned into a "boys toys lets see what stupid thing we can do with a car" program, funny all the same, a bit of light relief. I'm very surprised Bletchley Park let him near those machines, the BBC must have had to agree to serious contractual terms, Clarkson's comments are always controversial and he is renown for breaking things, especially that involving technology. I have to say I do agree with him sometimes. Mike. > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:46:55 -0800 > From: "Marcin Wichary" > Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <1debc0350801081246y1f1cd0fdl49c2787493829c3d at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > It looks like the collection they have in Bletchley Park... > http://picasaweb.google.com/mwichary/BletchleyPark > Esp. this photo: > http://picasaweb.google.com/mwichary/BletchleyPark/photo#5007045881138292738, > although I was there a year and a half ago. > > Clarkson is actually pretty funny, usually. :) > > On Jan 8, 2008 12:30 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> >> View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: >> >> http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html >> >> This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top >> Gear". I'm not familiar with it. >> >> But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And >> why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a >> hammer around all those vintage machines? >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> Festival >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >> Computers >> ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || >> at >> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >> > > > > -- > Marcin Wichary > User interface designer, Google > Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:42:15 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk > adapter > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <47836FA7.5245.3E2F3BAD at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >> Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:50:13 -0600 >> From: Choctaw Bob > >> http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adap >> ter.html The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and >> write data to your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy >> disk >> drive. Sale Price $9.99 > > Dunno, but at that price, I couldn't resist ordering a couple. I'll > pop one open to see what makes it tick. Note that the floppy is > simply used as a coupling device--the gizmo requires installation of > drivers. > > I'm particularly interested to see if those drivers will work with a > USB drive (i.e. how general are they?)--the literature's not quite > clear on that; only that it doesn't work with PC Card drives. > > Thanks for the link. The Smartdisk.com web site doesn't seem to be > responding; let's hope it's temporary. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:09:03 +0000 > From: Adrian Graham > Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > On 8/1/08 20:30, "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > >> >> View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: >> >> http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html >> >> This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top >> Gear". I'm not familiar with it. > > It's an award-winning motoring show that polarises people's opinion on > Clarkson. Some, like me, think he's great and everyone else thinks he's a > > >> But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And >> why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a >> hammer around all those vintage machines? > > That's the old Block H museum at Bletchley Park and to be fair he's only > smashing up a Tecra :) That room is now the Large Machine room of the new > National Museum of Computing and we now have the entire run of H-Block > which > is the world's first purpose built computer room that housed the > codebreaking Colossus machines from Jan 1944. Jules will be along soon to > provide links etc that I can never remember! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:14:03 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4783E79B.1050507 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Marcin Wichary wrote: >> It looks like the collection they have in Bletchley Park... > > Yes it is/was, although that was before my time there, so the vid's at > least > four years old. First time I've seen it too - I had no idea anyone > actually > let him do that right next to any of the 'real' machines! :-( > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:35:07 +0000 > From: Lawrence Wilkinson > Subject: S/360 update > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <1199828107.20866.25.camel at ljw.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain > > I've just had a email from Bob Doran, who was one of my CompSci > professors at Auckland University. > > It seems that they (AU Comp Sci) have the front panel from my 360 which > they salvaged many years ago, and which is now becoming part of a lobby > display. > > So at least now I know something about what happened to it, but I > suspect that the rest of the system was scrapped. > > One part he's after for the panel is the centre Display Store Selection > rotary switch dials (there are two parts to the rotary switch), so if > anyone happens to know where there's a spare one, I'm sure he'd be > grateful! > (See the top picture at http://www.corestore.org/360.htm , thanks Mike!) > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:21:57 -0700 > From: Richard > Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical > list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally > ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed > that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. > > Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. > > They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described > in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their > proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground > to open protocols. > > OK, googling brings up the link. "Network World" is the culprit: > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:26:09 -0700 > From: Richard > Subject: CDC GRID (Graphical Interactive Display) manual online > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > OK, someone beat me to it (or saved me the trouble of scanning, not > sure which :-) on the CDC manual. Hrm. Did someone scan and > contribute to bitsavers and then sell it to me on ebay? > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 18:07:07 -0500 > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > Subject: Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4784021B.5060604 at atarimuseum.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I was at I think the 1990 or 1991 New York Computer Show at Jacob > Javitts and IBM had a booth setup with a ton of the small BA440 sized > AS400's and they were streaming video across a network onto a > presentation screen from one, running Novell on another, I thought > perhaps they were running a derivative of OS/2 (but I'm not totally > certain) and then running others with standard AS/400 apps on others. > > The IBM rep's were touting their abilities and DEC Vax's were mentioned > several times during the course of casual conversations I overheard > throughout the booth. They were really pushing the AS/400's as the end > all, beat all workhorse machine. > > > Curt > > > > Richard wrote: >> In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical >> list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally >> ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed >> that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. >> >> Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. >> >> They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described >> in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their >> proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground >> to open protocols. >> >> OK, googling brings up the link. "Network World" is the culprit: >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:13:32 +0000 > From: Pete Turnbull > Subject: Re: Wonder how useful this would be, MMC to floppy disk > adapter > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4784039C.1080302 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 08/01/2008 20:42, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> http://www.flash-memory-store.com/clearance-flashpath-mmc-floppy-disk-adap >>> ter.html The FlashPath is a floppy disk adapter that lets you read and >>> write data to your MultiMedia Card (MMC) using your computer's floppy >>> disk >>> drive. Sale Price $9.99 >> >> Dunno, but at that price, I couldn't resist ordering a couple. I'll >> pop one open to see what makes it tick. Note that the floppy is >> simply used as a coupling device--the gizmo requires installation of >> drivers. >> >> I'm particularly interested to see if those drivers will work with a >> USB drive (i.e. how general are they?)--the literature's not quite >> clear on that; only that it doesn't work with PC Card drives. > > I remember those, but they're quite old. I was interested at the time > because I was was looking for a way to read cards from a digital camera, > but I rapidly discovered that it only worked with one particular version > of Windows (95, I think) and the support was non-existent. Absolutely > no way to make it work with Linux/Irix/Solaris/MS-DOS which was what I > wanted. So I decided to get a Sony camera that took 3.5" floppies > instead (that'll date it for you). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:29:29 -0000 > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Subject: RE: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <002201c8524e$51c8cce0$5b01a8c0 at uatempname> > > Richard wrote: >> In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical >> list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally >> ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed >> that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. >> >> Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. > > The original "VAX killer" was the IBM 9370 (or so I was told > when I was working on a mixed DEC/IBM site back in the 1990s). > > I've never heard an AS400 described that way either, but by then > I was firmly entrenched at DEC sites (and then DEC) so I wouldn't > have been in a position to hear such gossip anyway. > > Wouldn't surprise me to hear the phrase re-used though. > > Antonio > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1213 - Release Date: > 07/01/2008 09:14 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:50:12 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: re: CDC GRID (Graphical Interactive Display) manual online > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <47840C34.8070207 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > The scan was from a copy in the CHM archives. > > Do you have the same revision of this document? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:53:46 +0000 > From: jpero at sympatico.ca > Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <6bpm1d$55ejur at toip4.srvr.bell.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. > Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht > ml > > Cheers, Wizard > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:54:15 +0000 > From: Peter Hicks > Subject: ST412 controller cables > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <47840D27.9070307 at poggs.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Hello! > > In an attempt to resurrect an old Mitsubishi MR535R (RLL) drive, I managed > to > pick up an ST11M controller by accident - it was advertised on eBay as > "MFM or > RLL". > > Two things: > > 1) Does anyone have a spare set of control and data cables? I'm willing > to > pay for 'em, or visit Maplin for components to make up a set, since > they're > probably easy to make with IDC connectors and ribbon cable. > > 2) Does anyone happen to have a suitable RLL controller they're looking > to > get rid of, or could let me have access to one for a few hours? The 60Mb > drive > possibly contains some very old RM Net 3.1 software which I'd like to > archive > off, as there doesn't seem to be anyone at all - even at RM - who has any > software left. I'd be happy to travel (within reason, I'm in London, UK) > and > exchange use of a controller card for beer/alcohol :) > > Cheers > > > Peter > > -- > Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com > > A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation > Q: Why is top-posting bad? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:04:44 -0500 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Subject: Re: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > OMG, that is soooo amazing. Proof positive that you can make anything with > the proper tools. Mesmerizing. > > > On 1/8/08 1:53 PM, "jpero at sympatico.ca" wrote: > >> This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. >> Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. >> >> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht >> ml >> >> Cheers, Wizard > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:11:00 -0500 > From: "Evan" > Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > Message-ID: <200801090011.m090BUYG096960 at keith.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Will read when I get home ... But Top Gear is a great show. > > Also ... "whose" ... you dumbass. :) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sellam Ismail > Subj: Who's collection is that? > Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 3:44 pm > Size: 821 bytes > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > > View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: > > http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html > > This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top > Gear". I'm not familiar with it. > > But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And > why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a > hammer around all those vintage machines? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:34:48 -0000 > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Subject: Who says you can't make your own vacuum tubes? > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <002901c85257$71db9ef0$5b01a8c0 at uatempname> > > This from Make (via slashdot): > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html > > There seems to be a bunch of paperwork on his site too (assuming you > count PDF as "paperwork"). > > Won't be too long before someone is building 7400 TTL replacements > chips in a garage somewhere! > > Antonio > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1213 - Release Date: > 07/01/2008 09:14 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:37:42 -0700 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: CDC GRID (Graphical Interactive Display) manual online > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > > In article <47840C34.8070207 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> The scan was from a copy in the CHM archives. >> >> Do you have the same revision of this document? > > I'll check the document numbers, but it looks identical, complete with > the same provisional hand-written notes and whatnot. > > The two short addendums to the manual are not present in that scan, so > I can scan those and upload them. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:40:59 -0500 > From: "Evan Koblentz" > Subject: RE: Who's collection is that? > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <010e01c85258$4f6248a0$f750f945 at evan> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Crap ... I'm the dumbass ... meant to reply to Sellam directly. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Evan [mailto:evan at snarc.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 7:11 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? > > > Will read when I get home ... But Top Gear is a great show. > > Also ... "whose" ... you dumbass. :) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sellam Ismail > Subj: Who's collection is that? > Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 3:44 pm > Size: 821 bytes > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > > View the YouTube clip on this blog posting by Christine Finn: > > http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/01/top-gear-star-i.html > > This is Jeremy Clarkson, some British guy who does a show called "Top > Gear". I'm not familiar with it. > > But what I want to know is, whose collection is that in the video? And > why did they allow this psychotic monkey to start going apeshit with a > hammer around all those vintage machines? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:16:58 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: General at priv-edtnaa06.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edtnaa06.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Message-ID: <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Richard wrote: >> >> They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described >> in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their >> proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground >> to open protocols. > > There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' > mean, and > how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that > argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at > least > above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in the > networking world in those days as it does today. > > There was also resistance to open protocols at the customer level if those > customers were already ensconced in the proprietary networks. A lot of > people > were looking only at their immediate needs rather than seeing the future > of an > 'interconnected world'. > > (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party > producing > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. To my recollection, > IBM was > even later in taking up TCP/IP, although one might have to distinguish > between > mainframe and PC stuff. > > Put another way, DEC and IBM didn't support TCP/IP until they 'had to' (as > in > market forces). > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:27:20 -0600 > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > Subject: Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <478422F8.3060100 at brutman.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I don't know if IBM created the AS/400 as a VAX killer. I doubt it. > > The AS/400 is a direct descendent of the S/38. The S/38 was designed > and built by the people who brought you the S/36, S/34, and earlier > machines. The IBM plant that built those machines and related equipment > has been in Rochester MN since the late 1950s. > > Both series of machines competed in the mid-range market. I don't think > that IBM has 'won' the mid-range market with the AS/400 and iSeries. I > think it is just the last player standing in that market, with Unix > machines having done serious damage to all of the players. > > > Mike > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:20:43 -0700 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > > In article <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca>, > Brent Hilpert writes: > >> There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' >> mean, a > nd >> how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that >> argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own >> 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at >> least >> above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in the >> networking world in those days as it does today. > > But wasn't DEC instrumental in helping ethernet succeed? See the > history section of . Or am I > confusing ethernet (physical layer) with tcp/ip (protocol layer)? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:32:50 -0500 > From: "John Floren" > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <7d3530220801081932j497f341bw5be32cfc51fd2dbf at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 1/8/08, Richard wrote: >> >> In article <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca>, >> Brent Hilpert writes: >> >> > There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' >> > mean, a >> nd >> > how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that >> > argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own >> > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at >> > least >> > above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in >> > the >> > networking world in those days as it does today. >> >> But wasn't DEC instrumental in helping ethernet succeed? See the >> history section of . Or am I >> confusing ethernet (physical layer) with tcp/ip (protocol layer)? > > DECnet runs over ethernet. Plan 9's IL protocol (used instead of tcp > in the early days) runs over ethernet. I think you're confusing > physical layer with protocol layer :) > > John > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:11:11 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: General at priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Message-ID: <47844960.20BB087F at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Richard wrote: >> >> In article <4784208A.8589EB19 at cs.ubc.ca>, >> Brent Hilpert writes: >> >> > There's a lot of room for shades of gray in there (what does 'forced' >> > mean, a >> nd >> > how far, and when) but I'd say there is a good deal of validity to that >> > argument. In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own >> > 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at >> > least >> > above the link level. TCP/IP didn't have the degree of prominence in >> > the >> > networking world in those days as it does today. >> >> But wasn't DEC instrumental in helping ethernet succeed? See the >> history section of . Or am I >> confusing ethernet (physical layer) with tcp/ip (protocol layer)? > > Yes, ethernet was precisely what I had in mind as I added that little "at > least > above the link level" clause to my comment. > Ethernet is quite distinct from TCP/IP, it's just another link type as far > as > IP is concerned. DEC latched on to ethernet quite early to use as a > (choice of) > link layer for DECnet. > > It is kind of funny that manufacturers could agree on physical & frame > level > stuff (RS232,HDLC,ethernet,etc.) but then had to go their own way in the > higher > layers. > Or one might say that agreement started at the physical level, and it just > took > time to go up the stack getting agreement along the way. (Or else it's > just > easier to be proprietary in software than hardware.) > > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers > around, > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was > called > the DEQNA?). > Youngsters out there should be grateful they don't have to wire their home > machines together with thick-wire... > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:48:35 -0800 > From: "Glen Slick" > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <1e1fc3e90801082048v4bc0edb3iedef778f37cb4b91 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Jan 8, 2008 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of >> thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers >> around, >> until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although >> the >> transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was >> called >> the DEQNA?). > > DEQNA = Q-bus Ethernet (M7504), replaced by DELQA (M7516) and DESQA > (M3127) > > Maybe you meant DELNI = Digital Ethernet Local Network Interconnect, > which had 8 local AUI ports. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:46:53 -0500 (EST) > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200801090451.XAA07683 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> In the 80's DEC and IBM were pretty big on pushing their own >> 'networking solutions' and did their best to avoid open protocols, at >> least above the link level. > > In Montreal, in the days before Teh Internet, each of the four > universities here was using IP internally, but had no IP connectivity > outside themselves. Then DEC, presumably trying to earn some kind of > PR brownie points in support of higher education or some such, donated > routers and leased lines to tie them together - but the routers were > DECnet-only. (I proceeded to use IP/DECnet dual-stack Ultrix machines > to turn this DECnet-only infrastructure into an IP transport...I don't > know how DEC felt about this nose-thumbing at their attempt to lock us > into their proprietary way, but the CRIM treated it as a feature, so it > would have been impolitic for DEC to grumble publicly.) > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:52:06 -0500 (EST) > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200801090454.XAA07715 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> [...] until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' >> (although the transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct >> in recalling it was called the DEQNA?). > > No. The DEQNA is a Q-bus Ethernet card. (I don't remember DEC's name > for their AUI hub, but I know the DEQNA.) > >> Youngsters out there should be grateful they don't have to wire their >> home machines together with thick-wire... > > Aye. Thicknet was difficult to run and (at least in my exprience) the > transceiver/cable connection was horribly finicky. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:22:31 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: General at priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Message-ID: <47845A18.E9CAB113 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Glen Slick wrote: >> >> On Jan 8, 2008 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops >> > of >> > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers >> > around, >> > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although >> > the >> > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it >> > was called >> > the DEQNA?). >> >> DEQNA = Q-bus Ethernet (M7504), replaced by DELQA (M7516) and DESQA >> (M3127) >> >> Maybe you meant DELNI = Digital Ethernet Local Network Interconnect, >> which had 8 local AUI ports. > > Thanks for the correction. I think I've heard "DEQNA" in recent years and > it > was supplanting the memory of "DELNI", which I haven't heard in years. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 29 > Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:12:07 -0500 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: Re: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <478473C7.3010004 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > der Mouse wrote: >>> [...] until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' >>> (although the transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct >>> in recalling it was called the DEQNA?). >> >> No. The DEQNA is a Q-bus Ethernet card. (I don't remember DEC's name >> for their AUI hub, but I know the DEQNA.) > > DELNI? > > Peace... Sridhar > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 > ************************************** > > From bert at brothom.nl Wed Jan 9 04:01:36 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:01:36 +0100 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47849B80.40705@brothom.nl> > Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. I have a book about the AS/400 that states that the AS/400 was specifically designed and/or marketed as a VAX killer. I don't remember the title of the book, but I can dig it up if you insist. It is written by a member of the AS/400 design team IIRC. Regards, Bert From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Jan 9 06:50:39 2008 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:50:39 +1100 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <003201c85296$060804e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003201c85296$060804e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On 09/01/2008, at 7:02 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > Was it KiNet who did DECnet for Solaris? And AIX and if my memory serves me correctly RISC/OS as well. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:02:36 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:02:36 -0600 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <478422F8.3060100@brutman.com> References: <478422F8.3060100@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4784D3FC.2070008@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I don't know if IBM created the AS/400 as a VAX killer. I doubt it. I've only ever come across it in connection with PR1ME hardware. I'd always thought of IBM and DEC as selling to different markets in those days, somehow. > The AS/400 is a direct descendent of the S/38. The S/38 was designed > and built by the people who brought you the S/36, S/34, and earlier > machines. JOOI, is there anything significant in the even model numbering? (e.g. I don't think I've ever heard of a S/35, S/37... were there architectural reasons for the numbering, or was it something like "the odd numbers are development versions of the subsequent even-numbered machines"?) cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:13:58 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:13:58 -0800 Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <889491.53288.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <889491.53288.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris All of the I/O, Floppy, video, modem and such, are through custom Canon chips. I'm told that they emulate standard chips because they originally built the prototypes with standard off the shelf parts. I don't know if Canon used the same IC's in other machines or if they were just for the Cat. I don't recall seeing any PAL's but then I wasn't looking for such. The reason I opened mine up was to replace the battery for the CMOS RAM. I just looked around to see what else was there. I recall noting that most of the memory was 16 bits wide except for the CMOS that was 8 bit on even addresses. When I decompiled the code for the CMOS, I noted that it use an 8 bit instruction that was not used on later versions of the 68K. Dwight > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:55:46 -0800 > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: contemplating selling my Canon Cat > > Hey Dwight, being that I've yet to open mine up, is > there a.n.y proprietary logic on the mobo? Being that > it was released in 1987, I can't imagine there not > being something - even a PAL or whatnot. > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 9 09:46:26 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:46:26 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Message-ID: <1E54270384C@dunfield.com> >> If anyone is interested, I have a very small bit of 8051 code which reads an >> attached PC keyboard, providing the scan codes over an RS-232 link. It also >> supports commands to set LEDs on/off etc. I specifically avoided using the >> P1 line in my design (full 8-bits parallel I/O available even on an 8031), >> so these are free, making it very trivial to modify this to output parallel >> instead of serial - it would also be very easy to add a translate table >> and recognition of shift/ctrl modifiers so that it would output fully decided >> ASCII. > have you just the code or even the circuit PCB layout? I've built up hand-wired prototypes, but I have not laid out a PCB. The schematic is just an 8051 with power/crystal attached, or an 8031 with external ROM and address latch as per any 8051/8031 datasheet. The PC keyboard clock and data lines are attached to the pins indicated in the comments in my code. If you want RS-232 levels, you need a level convertor (MAX232 etc.) on the 8051/31 RX/TX signals. > And have you an idea to how to transform the circuit from serial to > parallel? Instead of polling for TX ready and writing the scancode to SBUF, just write it to P1 (8-bit parallel output). You will also need a key-down strobe, which you can implement via another pin, using key-down scancodes to set, and key-up scancodes to clear. Assuming you want ASCII instead of scancodes, you would need a translate table (scancode to ASCII), and to recognize and track the state of the SHIFT, CTRL keys and CAPS-LOCK state, either using alternate translate tables (most flexible), or modifying the codes from one table accordingly. Implementing rollover properly requires a bit more logic - once you have processed a key-down, you must queue any other scancodes you receive until you get the corresponding key-up, then process the queued codes after you have released the strobe. You can get fancier, implementing auto-repeat etc. if you like, the logic is pretty straightforward (if key-down persists beyond the initial delay, begin toggling the strobe at the repeat rate). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 9 08:53:40 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:53:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <003201c85296$060804e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003201c85296$060804e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200801091501.KAA16309@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (I proceeded to use IP/DECnet dual-stack Ultrix machines to turn >> this DECnet-only infrastructure into an IP transport...I don't know >> how DEC felt about this nose-thumbing at their attempt to lock us >> into their proprietary way [...]) > To which proprietary protocol do you refer? The protocol part of the proprietary way I was talking about was DECnet, yes. To some extent I think you've got a point. But to some extent I disagree, too; given how close to single-sourced DECnet was, I think it's fair to call it a "proprietary way" even if the underlying protocol wasn't closed. (Yes, there were other implementations, but they were fringe - consider how often, or rather seldom, it happened that anyone used DECnet without a DEC system being involved on at least one end. Even the dual-stack machines I used were MicroVAX-IIs running Ultrix.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 9 10:00:42 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:00:42 -0600 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <1E54270384C@dunfield.com> References: <1E54270384C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4784EFAA.4000500@jbrain.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Implementing rollover properly requires a bit more logic - once you have > processed a key-down, you must queue any other scancodes you receive until > you get the corresponding key-up, then process the queued codes after you > have released the strobe. > Hmm, I just process the code to char on keydown, and then when the next keydown occurs, I process it the same. Why would you want to queue the additional keypresses? > You can get fancier, implementing auto-repeat etc. if you like, the logic > is pretty straightforward (if key-down persists beyond the initial delay, > begin toggling the strobe at the repeat rate). > PS2 keyboards do this automatically (repeat a keydown after a certain number of ms) From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 9 12:55:48 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:55:48 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <4784EFAA.4000500@jbrain.com> References: <1E54270384C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <292DEC64ED5@dunfield.com> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Implementing rollover properly requires a bit more logic - once you have > > processed a key-down, you must queue any other scancodes you receive until > > you get the corresponding key-up, then process the queued codes after you > > have released the strobe. > > > Hmm, I just process the code to char on keydown, and then when the next > keydown occurs, I process it the same. Why would you want to queue the > additional keypresses? Because for a parallel keyboard you need a key-down strobe. If you just set the strobe on keydown and clear it on key up, you will not correctly perform rollover - If you are unfamilier with the term, rollover describes what often happens when a typist is trucking along at speed - one key is pressed, then another before the first is released, then the first released, and finally the second (and you usually have a third key happning after the second etc.) If you simply assert key-down on a make, and release it on a break, you get: Press A - Write A to port, assert key-down Press B - Write B to port, key-down is still asserted Release A - Release key-down Release B - key-down is already released In this scenario, you only got one keystrobe at the emulated parallel interface, and one of the keys will be lost. A true typist would throw your keyboard out the window. One way to resolve this is to simply "pulse" key-down, and not hold it down while keys are down - this works for most applications, but not for some games and things which actually use the duration of key-down. If you take this approach, you can ignore key-up codes, and simply write the ASCII value to the parallel port on key-down codes, and strobe the key-down signal on the parallel interface - but you still have to queue data from the keyboard because you cannot process the next key until after you have released key-down on the parallel interface. If you prefer to implement a true key-down signal on the parallel interface, you assert key-down on the key-down scancode, and queue anything occuring until the matching key-up scancode - then you process the codes in the queue, which arranges all the keys "in order". Btw, most parallel keyboards have "two key rollover" which means that you can press one more key while one is down, but not two - this ability is inherent in the key scanning matrix - the keyboard scans until it finds a key and stops the scanner, watching only those lines until the key is released - if another key is pressed in the meantime, it will be detected as soon as the scanner resumes - if more than one extra key is pressed, the one detected may not be the next one that was actually pressed (hence "two key" rollover). This type of keyboard also usually output a key-down strobe for as long as the key is held (bascially the same control signal that holds the scanner). I've implemented a number of keyboards this way, and it's actually quite sufficient for most typists. Fancier keyboards feature 'n' key rollover, which means the scanner runs all the time, and keystrokes are queued so that any number of pending keys can be serviced. These typically have only a key strobe output, so that the queue can be emptied to "keep up" with the guy mashing down keys. > > You can get fancier, implementing auto-repeat etc. if you like, the logic > > is pretty straightforward (if key-down persists beyond the initial delay, > > begin toggling the strobe at the repeat rate). > > > PS2 keyboards do this automatically (repeat a keydown after a certain > number of ms) Yes they do, but they only repeat the key-down code - you need to maintain your own repeat logic if you want to be able to toggle the key-down strobe while keys are held down (just asserting it again won't make it toggle). My usual approach is once I've received key-down, and am waiting for key-up to release the key-down strobe, I queue anything else received, EXCEPT for the matching key-down code - these I ignore and implement my own repeat logic. But there are many possibilities - you could provide a "positive pulse" in the key-down strobe when you receive secondary key-down codes - this would provide parallel repeat at the same rate as the PC keyboard is providing (and you can program that to a certain extent if you like - I personally like the repeat logic in my code where I am not reliant on the variances between "compatible" keyboards. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 12:21:06 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:21:06 -0700 Subject: Warehouse in Vancouver, CA? Message-ID: Hey, whatever happeend with that huge warehouse full of stuff up in Vancouver, BC? Wasn't someone going to go check it out in person? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 9 12:38:57 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:38:57 -0600 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <292DEC64ED5@dunfield.com> References: <1E54270384C@dunfield.com> <292DEC64ED5@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <478514C1.4070706@jbrain.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Because for a parallel keyboard you need a key-down strobe. If you just > set the strobe on keydown and clear it on key up, you will not correctly > perform rollover - If you are unfamilier with the term, rollover describes > True, I strobe on keydown, I don't hold the strobe down for more than 1uS. > One way to resolve this is to simply "pulse" key-down, and not hold it down > while keys are down - this works for most applications, but not for some > games and things which actually use the duration of key-down. > Yes, this is how I do it. > If you take this approach, you can ignore key-up codes, and simply write > the ASCII value to the parallel port on key-down codes, and strobe the > key-down signal on the parallel interface - but you still have to queue > data from the keyboard because you cannot process the next key until > after you have released key-down on the parallel interface. > I still don't understand this. The strobe period is typically 1uS, so there is no chance a new PS/2 char could arrive before I finish my strobe. > was actually pressed (hence "two key" rollover). This type of keyboard > also usually output a key-down strobe for as long as the key is held > Yes, if that is the requirement, then I'd need more code to handle that. > Fancier keyboards feature 'n' key rollover, which means the scanner > runs all the time, and keystrokes are queued so that any number of > pending keys can be serviced. These typically have only a key strobe > output, so that the queue can be emptied to "keep up" with the guy > mashing down keys. > This is how I have implemented my interface. THe PS/2 keyboard standard is an 'n' key rollover implementation, so I just grab the scan code and convert to ASCII, strobing it into the parallel latch and then repeating the process. > Yes they do, but they only repeat the key-down code - you need to maintain > your own repeat logic if you want to be able to toggle the key-down strobe > while keys are held down (just asserting it again won't make it toggle). > When you just strobe on keydown, when the next keydown comes along on PS/2, I just treat it like a new character. I would agree you can implement that logic internal (Since C=Key can also interfaces a KB matrix to PS/2, I implemented a full n-key rollover scanner with repeat), I decided against re-implementing something already in PS/2 KBs. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Jan 9 13:51:57 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:51:57 +0000 Subject: Who's collection is that? Message-ID: <010920081951.10980.478525DD0006153300002AE422028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> It seems Clarkson does not know that much about modern computers either. The following is from the latest SANS Newsbites. --UK TV Host Learns a Lesson About Data Exposure (January 7 & 8, 2008)UK television personality Jeremy Clarkson put his money where his mouth is and lost GBP 500 (US $984). Clarkson published his bank account information to demonstrate that the media frenzy over lost HMRC data belonging to 25 million people was unwarranted. Clarkson was certain that no money could be transferred out of his account. However, one reader managed to set up a GBP 500 direct debit to a UK charity. Because of the Data Protection Act, there is no way for the bank to discover whoe stablished the direct debit, nor is there a way to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Clarkson has admitted he was wrong about the potential risks inherent in data exposure. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stmhttp://www.sunderlandecho.com/latest-entertainment-news/Clarkson-Uturn-%20-over-identity-theft.3645707.jp Message: 9 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:38:08 -0000 From: "Mike Hatch" Subject: Re: Re: Who's collection is that? To: Jeremy Clarkson dos the BBC2 Top Gear motoring program, used to be a serious motoring program but in recent years has turned into a "boys toys lets see what stupid thing we can do with a car" program, funny all the same, a bit of light relief. I'm very surprised Bletchley Park let him near those machines, the BBC must have had to agree to serious contractual terms, Clarkson's comments are always controversial and he is renown for breaking things, especially that involving technology. I have to say I do agree with him sometimes. Mike. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 14:22:15 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:22:15 -0700 Subject: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:51:57 +0000. <010920081951.10980.478525DD0006153300002AE422028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <010920081951.10980.478525DD0006153300002AE422028887449DD2020E030B040A00 at comcast.net>, feldman.r at comcast.net writes: > It seems Clarkson does not know that much about modern computers either. ...and I don't know shit about cars. So what? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 9 15:23:57 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:23:57 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <478514C1.4070706@jbrain.com> References: <292DEC64ED5@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <31A2A840716@dunfield.com> > > Because for a parallel keyboard you need a key-down strobe. If you just > > set the strobe on keydown and clear it on key up, you will not correctly > > perform rollover - If you are unfamilier with the term, rollover describes > > > True, I strobe on keydown, I don't hold the strobe down for more than 1uS. Thats a pretty short strobe --- although it will be perfectly acceptable on many systems - Others will "go away" to process a key strobe, and may miss the next key if the strobe is short (in certain applications yadda yadda ...) [An example of where this occurs badly is in polled CTRL-C processing on some systems - you need to hold CTRL-C until the software notices that you have a key down - normal operation on polled systems does this to a lesser extent, but it helps to have a long strobe if you don't have a true key-down strobe] Most of the parallel keyboards I've worked with use a true "key down" strobe which stays asserted until you let go of the key - so I like to provide that capability. > > If you take this approach, you can ignore key-up codes, and simply write > > the ASCII value to the parallel port on key-down codes, and strobe the > > key-down signal on the parallel interface - but you still have to queue > > data from the keyboard because you cannot process the next key until > > after you have released key-down on the parallel interface. > > > I still don't understand this. The strobe period is typically 1uS, so > there is no chance a new PS/2 char could arrive before I finish my strobe. As noted above, thats a shortish strobe, and given that the keyboard clocks the transfer, you don't really have control over how fast the next data can come in other than "they are supposed to do it somewhere near this rate", but yes - with a short strobe you can in most cases get away with this technique. > This is how I have implemented my interface. THe PS/2 keyboard standard > is an 'n' key rollover implementation, so I just grab the scan code and > convert to ASCII, strobing it into the parallel latch and then repeating > the process. As a simple approach, this will work as long as the timing fits ... and it is an easy way to do it - you actually need to "undo" some of the PC's nice keyboard features to implement more robust emulation... (I had to "undo" the auto-repeat by ignoring multiple-key downs without key-ups in my PC100 emulator when the "auto-repeat" option is turned off). > > Yes they do, but they only repeat the key-down code - you need to maintain > > your own repeat logic if you want to be able to toggle the key-down strobe > > while keys are held down (just asserting it again won't make it toggle). > > > When you just strobe on keydown, when the next keydown comes along on > PS/2, I just treat it like a new character. I should point out that auto-repeat and a true key-down indicator are somewhat multually exclusive - If you want the indicator to stay asserted as long as a key is held down, then having it auto-repeat is contrary to that ... this is why many parallel keyboards have a separate "REPEAT" key - this key simply interrupts the key-down indicator at a regular rate while it is held down. > I would agree you can implement that logic internal (Since C=Key can > also interfaces a KB matrix to PS/2, I implemented a full n-key rollover > scanner with repeat), I decided against re-implementing something > already in PS/2 KBs. Which is fine for many applications - A generalized parallel keyboard emulation should allow for either case, and you will need to handle the things I mentioned (which isn't hard). Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 9 15:28:27 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:28:27 -0600 Subject: OFFLIST Re: Who's collection is that? References: Message-ID: <001a01c85306$98a44230$6500a8c0@BILLING> It passed.... >> It seems Clarkson does not know that much about modern computers either. > > ...and I don't know shit about cars. So what? Hey hey.... was this really necessary :P Jay From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 9 15:54:20 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:54:20 +0000 Subject: OFFLIST Re: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: <001a01c85306$98a44230$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 9/1/08 21:28, "Jay West" wrote: > It passed.... >>> It seems Clarkson does not know that much about modern computers either. >> >> ...and I don't know shit about cars. So what? > > Hey hey.... was this really necessary :P > > Jay Good job that happened off-list eh :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 9 16:04:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:04:27 -0500 Subject: Keyboard PS/2 to Parallel converter In-Reply-To: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> References: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Message-ID: <200801091704.27343.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 January 2008 15:48, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > > > There was some project article in Byte way back when, by Steve Ciarcia, > > which provided a peecee-type keyboard input (AT rather than PS/2 but that > > shouldn't make that much difference). The circuit to deal with this was > > very simple and elegant, though I can't remember any more just how it was > > done. > > > He didn't use a UART or similar, though, just a couple of MSI chips. > > And I remember thinking then how it wouldn't be all that hard to stuff an > > eprom between the output of that circuit (which gave you keycodes rather > > than characters) and have it spit out ASCII. > > > > Perhaps one of these days I'll run across the article again. > > Roy, > > here would be the list of articles by Steve Ciarcia > > http://www.devili.iki.fi/library/author/203.en.html > > May you try to find the exact article? That's an interesting list, and I'm sure that it will help narrow things down some, but I can't recall from just the title which article it was. The list will help me omit some of them, though. A while back I did a serious reduction in a lot of the old magazines that I had been keeping, and included in that was a bunch of Byte, not the real early ones, which I still have intact, but that period of time when they started to get rather bulky. I clipped a lot of articles out and kept them, and filled nine large trash bags with what I didnt want any more. Somewhere around here I have a couple of boxes that have those clipped articles in them, and once I find them and get the chance to go through them, I'll probably find the article I'm thinking of. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Wed Jan 9 17:00:29 2008 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:00:29 +0000 Subject: OT: Re: Who's collection is that? In-Reply-To: <010920081951.10980.478525DD0006153300002AE422028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <010920081951.10980.478525DD0006153300002AE422028887449DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: <35204F54-DD5E-4846-B1C9-563C6239500C@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> To be fair, most people experiencing an unauthorised direct debit would immediately have redress simply by telling their bank that they didn't agree it. One's signature is supposed to be a secure authorisation token, and if the bank didn't check the signature on the direct debit against the one in their records, then it's the bank's problem. ;) One might propose that Clarkson challenge the direct debit and (for the sake of publicity) write the Diabetes Association a cheque for ?500. He's wealthy enough that he could do so AND write a cheque for ?5000 to a charity working in a more worthy field, such as donkey- or bunny-rescue. However the bank might in this case have an defence, especially Clarkson surely autographs his books at promotional events &c. Stroller. On 9 Jan 2008, at 19:51, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > It seems Clarkson does not know that much about modern computers > either. The following is from the latest SANS Newsbites. > >> --UK TV Host Learns a Lesson About Data Exposure (January 7 & 8, >> 2008) >> UK television personality Jeremy Clarkson put his money where his >> mouth is and lost GBP 500 (US $984). Clarkson published his bank >> account information to demonstrate that the media frenzy over lost >> HMRC data belonging to 25 million people was unwarranted. Clarkson >> was certain that no money could be transferred out of his account. >> However, one reader managed to set up a GBP 500 direct debit to a >> UK charity. Because of the Data Protection Act, there is no way >> for the bank to discover whoe stablished the direct debit, nor is >> there a way to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Clarkson has >> admitted he was wrong about the potential risks inherent in data >> exposure. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm >> http://www.sunderlandecho.com/latest-entertainment-news/Clarkson- >> Uturn-%20-over-identity-theft.3645707.jp From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Jan 9 16:53:46 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:53:46 -0600 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90801082048v4bc0edb3iedef778f37cb4b91@mail.gmail.co m> References: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080109165145.0df21fc8@localhost> At 08:48 PM 1/8/2008 -0800, you wrote: >On Jan 8, 2008 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of > > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers > around, > > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the > > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it > was called > > the DEQNA?). > >DEQNA = Q-bus Ethernet (M7504), replaced by DELQA (M7516) and DESQA (M3127) > >Maybe you meant DELNI = Digital Ethernet Local Network Interconnect, >which had 8 local AUI ports. No, there was a box called DQUNA or something like that too-- I used DELNI and DQUNA boxes at a medical diagnostics manufacturer. I think maybe one of them was a thin-net concentrator??? ----- 399. [Pop Culture] A naked American man stole my balloons. --An American Werewolf in London --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 9 17:28:03 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:28:03 -0000 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080109165145.0df21fc8@localhost> Message-ID: <002801c85317$495687e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Tom Peters wrote: > No, there was a box called DQUNA or something like that too-- I used > DELNI > and DQUNA boxes at a medical diagnostics manufacturer. I think maybe > one of > them was a thin-net concentrator??? The ThinWire "aggregator" was the DEMPR. It was a multiport repeater. Basically 8 ThinWire ports out the front and an AUI out the back so you could connect it to the backbone. The DEREP was the original ethernet repeater. It joined two lengths of cable (using a repeater) to make a longer length. UNA was the abbreviation for a DECnet circuit over the DELUA (UNIBUS ethernet adapter card). The DEQRA was the Qbus Token Ring adapter. The DEFQA was the Qbus FDDI adapter (nope, no idea why they made that one :-)). Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1214 - Release Date: 08/01/2008 13:38 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jan 9 17:38:49 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:38:49 +0000 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <002801c85317$495687e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On 9/1/08 23:28, "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > Tom Peters wrote: > >> No, there was a box called DQUNA or something like that too-- I used >> DELNI >> and DQUNA boxes at a medical diagnostics manufacturer. I think maybe >> one of >> them was a thin-net concentrator??? > > The ThinWire "aggregator" was the DEMPR. It was a multiport repeater. > Basically 8 ThinWire ports out the front and an AUI out the back > so you could connect it to the backbone. > > The DEREP was the original ethernet repeater. It joined two lengths of > cable (using a repeater) to make a longer length. > > UNA was the abbreviation for a DECnet circuit over the DELUA (UNIBUS > ethernet adapter card). > > The DEQRA was the Qbus Token Ring adapter. > > The DEFQA was the Qbus FDDI adapter (nope, no idea why they made that > one :-)). You missed out the DEREN which was the correct answer to 'what shall I use as a repeater device on the other end of my DEREP' :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 9 17:12:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:12:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ST412 controller cables In-Reply-To: <47840D27.9070307@poggs.co.uk> from "Peter Hicks" at Jan 8, 8 11:54:15 pm Message-ID: > 1) Does anyone have a spare set of control and data cables? I'm willing to > pay for 'em, or visit Maplin for components to make up a set, since they're > probably easy to make with IDC connectors and ribbon cable. If you want to make them, then it is very easy. They are just straight-throught 20 (data) and 34 (control) cables. IDC header sockets on one end, edge connectors on the other. I am not sure if Maplin still do the necessary bits, but RS/Farnell do (and IIRC the latter sell IDC ribbon cable in short-ish lengths). The original IBM PC/AT control cable had a twist in some of the wires so that boht drives cound be wst to the same DS line. But unlike the floppy cable, whenre the twise is needed to geve separate motor control for the 2 floppy drives, the twist in the hard disk cabel is not necessary. You cna use an untwisted cable and just set the DC links appropriately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 9 17:16:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:16:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 8, 8 08:11:11 pm Message-ID: > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers around, > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was called > the DEQNA?). IIRC the DEQNA was the Qbus Ethernet interface, akin to the DEUNA. They were replaced by the DELQA and DELUA respectively. The 8 port 'network in a box' is the DELNI I think (I have one somewhere..) > Youngsters out there should be grateful they don't have to wire their home > machines together with thick-wire... We don't ??? [:-) of course. But I atill prefer thinwire to UTP) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 9 17:40:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 9, 8 06:13:58 am Message-ID: > > > > Hi Chris > > All of the I/O, Floppy, video, modem and such, are through custom > Canon chips. I'm told that they emulate standard chips because > they originally built the prototypes with standard off the shelf parts. Ouch!. Before I read that, the Cat was high uop on my (mental) list of desirable machines. Now it's at the bottom :-(. How much is known about these ICs? Software interface (registers, etc)? Pinouts? -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 9 18:19:38 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:19:38 -0000 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002b01c8531e$7dac5770$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Adrian Graham wrote: > You missed out the DEREN which was the correct answer to 'what shall > I use as a repeater device on the other end of my DEREP' The device on the other end of a DEREP-RA would be another DEREP-RA. The technical manual says that for local use you use a single DEREP-AA, using an AUI cable from each of the DEREP-AA AUI connections to H4000 vampire taps on your two thickwire cables to be joined. The remote repeater is made up of two DEREP-RA each of which connects to a nearby thickwire ethernet cable via an AUI; the two DEREP-Ras are connected by up to 1km of fibre. I _think_ that the DEREN worked the same way (single for local use, two for remote use), and I _think_ it was later than the DEREP. The installation manual for the DEREN-RA indicates that you could put a remote bridge on the "other" end instead. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1214 - Release Date: 08/01/2008 13:38 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 9 19:06:54 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:06:54 -0500 Subject: ST412 controller cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801092006.54760.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 January 2008 18:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1) Does anyone have a spare set of control and data cables? I'm > > willing to pay for 'em, or visit Maplin for components to make up a set, > > since they're probably easy to make with IDC connectors and ribbon cable. > > If you want to make them, then it is very easy. They are just > straight-throught 20 (data) and 34 (control) cables. IDC header sockets > on one end, edge connectors on the other. I am not sure if Maplin still > do the necessary bits, but RS/Farnell do (and IIRC the latter sell IDC > ribbon cable in short-ish lengths). > > The original IBM PC/AT control cable had a twist in some of the wires so > that boht drives cound be wst to the same DS line. But unlike the floppy > cable, whenre the twise is needed to geve separate motor control for the > 2 floppy drives, the twist in the hard disk cabel is not necessary. You > cna use an untwisted cable and just set the DC links appropriately. I replied to the original post off-list, but since this is coming up here, I'll mention here that I have a bunch of those kinds of cables, some of which have differing combinations of pin-type or edge connectors, some may have a twist or not, I'd have to look, but if anyone needs such, feel free to contact me off-list and I'll go look in the box of cables and see what I've got, in detail... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pt at new.rr.com Wed Jan 9 19:43:48 2008 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:43:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <47844960.20BB087F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I well remember linking VAXes together and fighting with 2-metre loops of > thick-wire ethernet while banging those damned metal brick transceivers around, > until DEC saved us all with that first 8-port ethernet 'hub' (although the > transceiver cables were still a pain). (Am I correct in recalling it was called > the DEQNA?). I recall this being the delni From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 19:48:14 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:48:14 -0500 Subject: MZOS ROM Message-ID: <003801c8532a$ddcadad0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi Does anyone have an early model Vector Graphic computer with the MZOS ROM in it? It would be an early Vector Graphic computer (pre-1980) with 48K RAM. The MZOS ROM would be located at $C400-$C7FF. Even a hex dump from DDT would be useful or any other format I can convert. I need the MZOS ROM to be able to compute the sector checksum on some MZOS boot disks. Those disks are not readable with my VG machine or CWVG since they use a unique checksum algorithm. Actually, I can read the disks with CWVG but I cannot verify the contents of the sector with the checksum so I have no idea if the data is actually good or not. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 9 20:44:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:44:05 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp8] LINC-8 on Wikipedia Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:56:30 +0100 Groups: alt.sys.pdp8 From: Bjarni Juliusson Org: Update Computer Club Subject: LINC-8 on Wikipedia Id: ======== I created an article on Wikipedia about the LINC-8 and put what little information I could find into it. It would be great if some of you people could check it for errors and perhaps provide some citations. Bjarni -- INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 21:06:38 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:06:38 -0800 Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat In-Reply-To: References: from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> >> >> >> Hi Chris >> >> All of the I/O, Floppy, video, modem and such, are through custom >> Canon chips. I'm told that they emulate standard chips because >> they originally built the prototypes with standard off the shelf parts. > > Ouch!. Before I read that, the Cat was high uop on my (mental) list of > desirable machines. Now it's at the bottom :-(. > > How much is known about these ICs? Software interface (registers, etc)? > Pinouts? > > -tony Hi Tony The fail rate on these parts is quite low. I know a fellow in Oregon that uses around 6 of these daily in his business. The only fails he's had is one CRT and several disk drives. He has been using them for years! The disk drive is hard to find. They have a 20 pin ribbon cable intead of the more standard cable connector. This cable supplies the power as well. Like I said, these do emulate standard off the shelf parts, it is just that I've not dug into the code enough to see what might be the particular part used. I've seen the low level disk code and it look familiar. I think it is 765 but don't quoke me on that. The display is a question. I know there are several value in the init routine that are sent to it but I have no idea what it might be. The video is bit mapped in RAM so doing graphics is easy enough. Anyway, the price is most likely higher than what you might expect. The last one on ebay went for around $800. Unless your just lucky ( Like another I know on this list ) it may not seem worth getting. I payed about $250 for mine ( including shipping ) and was happy ( lucky types find them for $25 ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From markk at clara.co.uk Wed Jan 9 21:29:39 2008 From: markk at clara.co.uk (Mark) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:29:39 +0000 Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? Message-ID: <1199935779.5410.74.camel@pc> Hi, I recently received a Commodore A2024 monitor. This is a 15" monochrome/ grey-scale monitor which has a special converter board inside, that converts the 15kHz video output by an Amiga computer to 31kHz. It also supports a "tiled" mode, whereby Amiga video frames are combined to produce a 1024x800 or 1024x1024 pixel image. Unfortunately the monitor was damaged in transit and the tube is cracked. However the converter board should be usable. I want to make an adaptor to connect the converter board to a standard VGA/multi-sync monitor. Has anyone on the list connected an old workstation (or maybe an Atari ST?) with monochrome output to a modern monitor? Those should be similar. There should be no problem with the horizontal and vertical scan rates. I need to look at the board circuitry, but I'm pretty sure the horizontal and vertical sync signals will be at TTL levels, which is fine for connection to a VGA monitor. The monochrome video signal is output on a phono/RCA socket. Inside the monitor, a coaxial cable goes from that to the PCB at the end of the tube. I need to determine the video signal level. Apparently VGA uses 0.7V p-p, so I might need to add a resistor in-line to reduce the voltage if it's any higher. Unfortunately I don't have access to an oscilloscope. Could I just arrange for a full-screen white image to be shown, measure the voltage using a normal DC multimeter, and multiply up the value shown to account for the proportion of each scanline corresponding to sync/flyback? Once that issue is solved, I should be able to connect the video signal to the green signal pin of a VGA monitor and get a green picture. In order to get a grey-scale picture, can I simply connect the video signal via resistors to each of the R, G and B pins on the monitor connector? If so, what resistor values would be needed? If not, I guess I could use or build a 1-to-3 splitter/amplifier circuit, then connect the 3 outputs of that to the R, G and B lines. -- M From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 9 21:48:06 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:48:06 -0500 Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? In-Reply-To: <1199935779.5410.74.camel@pc> References: <1199935779.5410.74.camel@pc> Message-ID: <47859576.7060000@atarimuseum.com> Hi Mark, Its very easy to make a simple cable to connect an ST to a VGA monitor, but it only comes up in Monochrome, the key is to use a multisync monitor. The info is here: http://www.atari-forum.com/wiki/index.php/Atari_ST_to_VGA_adaptor I was messing around with some LM1881N's to hook an Atari 800 direct from its raw RGB outputs from the motherboard to VGA and had limited success. Curt Mark wrote: > Hi, > > I recently received a Commodore A2024 monitor. This is a 15" monochrome/ > grey-scale monitor which has a special converter board inside, that > converts the 15kHz video output by an Amiga computer to 31kHz. It also > supports a "tiled" mode, whereby Amiga video frames are combined to > produce a 1024x800 or 1024x1024 pixel image. > > Unfortunately the monitor was damaged in transit and the tube is > cracked. However the converter board should be usable. I want to make an > adaptor to connect the converter board to a standard VGA/multi-sync > monitor. > > Has anyone on the list connected an old workstation (or maybe an Atari > ST?) with monochrome output to a modern monitor? Those should be > similar. > > There should be no problem with the horizontal and vertical scan rates. > I need to look at the board circuitry, but I'm pretty sure the > horizontal and vertical sync signals will be at TTL levels, which is > fine for connection to a VGA monitor. > > The monochrome video signal is output on a phono/RCA socket. Inside the > monitor, a coaxial cable goes from that to the PCB at the end of the > tube. > > I need to determine the video signal level. Apparently VGA uses 0.7V > p-p, so I might need to add a resistor in-line to reduce the voltage if > it's any higher. Unfortunately I don't have access to an oscilloscope. > Could I just arrange for a full-screen white image to be shown, measure > the voltage using a normal DC multimeter, and multiply up the value > shown to account for the proportion of each scanline corresponding to > sync/flyback? > > Once that issue is solved, I should be able to connect the video signal > to the green signal pin of a VGA monitor and get a green picture. In > order to get a grey-scale picture, can I simply connect the video signal > via resistors to each of the R, G and B pins on the monitor connector? > If so, what resistor values would be needed? If not, I guess I could use > or build a 1-to-3 splitter/amplifier circuit, then connect the 3 outputs > of that to the R, G and B lines. > > > -- M > > > > > From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 9 22:48:50 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:48:50 -0600 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <200801040651.30553.rtellason@verizon.net> <6b86442719b1c4799df50e096b72d6ce@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4785A3B2.6000606@jbrain.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Sandy's Electronics here in Reno has a bunch $1.00 each, these are the vellman boards and some telecom boards. 20 slot backplanes to match too. > www.sandyselectronicparts.com > Randy > > Did anyone ever find the link to this? These boards would probably make VIC-20 expansion port work much easier. Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 9 23:07:34 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:07:34 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp8] LINC-8 on Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801100007.35110.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 January 2008 21:44, Richard wrote: > This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the > original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. > > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:56:30 +0100 > Groups: alt.sys.pdp8 > From: Bjarni Juliusson > Org: Update Computer Club > Subject: LINC-8 on Wikipedia > Id: > ======== > I created an article on Wikipedia about the LINC-8 and put what little > information I could find into it. It would be great if some of you > people could check it for errors and perhaps provide some citations. There's a fair amount of info in some of that stuff I read a while back, I forget who pointed me at it or where I found it, but googling "C. Gordon Bell" should come up with it -- two pdf books, totaling about 1500 pages worth. The second (bigger) one had a bunch of info in there about that machine, as I recall. As well as a bunch of others, for those who are feeling ambitious. :-) (I'm not, currently.) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 9 23:12:05 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:12:05 -0500 Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? In-Reply-To: <1199935779.5410.74.camel@pc> References: <1199935779.5410.74.camel@pc> Message-ID: <200801100012.05697.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 January 2008 22:29, Mark wrote: (Snip) > The monochrome video signal is output on a phono/RCA socket. Inside the > monitor, a coaxial cable goes from that to the PCB at the end of the > tube. > > I need to determine the video signal level. Apparently VGA uses 0.7V > p-p, so I might need to add a resistor in-line to reduce the voltage if > it's any higher. Or more properly a voltage divider. > Unfortunately I don't have access to an oscilloscope. Too bad, as the peak-to-peak amplitude of the signal is really what you'd need to know here. > Could I just arrange for a full-screen white image to be shown, measure > the voltage using a normal DC multimeter, and multiply up the value > shown to account for the proportion of each scanline corresponding to > sync/flyback? Not likely. > Once that issue is solved, I should be able to connect the video signal > to the green signal pin of a VGA monitor and get a green picture. In > order to get a grey-scale picture, can I simply connect the video signal > via resistors to each of the R, G and B pins on the monitor connector? > If so, what resistor values would be needed? If not, I guess I could use > or build a 1-to-3 splitter/amplifier circuit, then connect the 3 outputs > of that to the R, G and B lines. A VGA monitor is (in most cases) still going to be looking for sync signals on separate pins. And you're starting out with composite video? This isn't a project *I* would care to tackle, and I am way ahead of you when it comes to equipment and background with this stuff. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 9 23:13:28 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:13:28 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <4785A3B2.6000606@jbrain.com> References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <4785A3B2.6000606@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200801100013.28923.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 January 2008 23:48, Jim Brain wrote: > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Sandy's Electronics here in Reno has a bunch $1.00 each, these are the > > vellman boards and some telecom boards. 20 slot backplanes to match too. > > www.sandyselectronicparts.com > > Randy > > Did anyone ever find the link to this? These boards would probably make > VIC-20 expansion port work much easier. Their online catalog *sucks*. I have a friend who lives in Reno, but who unfortunately is in the middle of some major hassles involving moving. He's told me that he'll look into it after that's over and done with. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 23:19:02 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:19:02 -0800 Subject: Warehouse in Vancouver, CA? In-Reply-To: <200801100514.m0A5Dlnt045082@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801100514.m0A5Dlnt045082@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4785AAC6.2090807@gmail.com> > > Hey, whatever happeend with that huge warehouse full of stuff up in > Vancouver, BC? Wasn't someone going to go check it out in person? > I never heard about this. Sounds interesting though. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 10 01:15:26 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:15:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microvax maintenance CDROM Message-ID: <16426.88.211.153.27.1199949326.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> The CDRom, manual and floppies are gone. On Jan 6, 2008 5:33 AM, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > > > > Found during cleanup. > > > > 1 Microvax maintenance CDrom, contains the diagnostic software. > > Complete in caddy and grey storage case. > > (Dec partno AG-PCUSE-RE) > > I found a few more things which are related to the cdrom, > a diagnostics manual and a set (11) of 5.25 floppies in plastic > case. > > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jan 9 03:00:19 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:00:19 -0000 Subject: Who's collection is that? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DC36@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Ah you underestimate the power of TV. They would have of course been insured. If they thought it would make good TV they could have copied the room onto a set, bought up old systems and had him trash the lot! Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 08 January 2008 21:14 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Who's collection is that? Marcin Wichary wrote: > It looks like the collection they have in Bletchley Park... Yes it is/was, although that was before my time there, so the vid's at least four years old. First time I've seen it too - I had no idea anyone actually let him do that right next to any of the 'real' machines! :-( From Phillip.Guerra at nkch.org Wed Jan 9 11:42:28 2008 From: Phillip.Guerra at nkch.org (Phillip Guerra) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:42:28 -0600 Subject: DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters? Message-ID: <58AEA561DB633B4F8557E19BD1F662C1CAA9A1@Belgian.nkch.org> Toth, Don't know if you still have any of these connector kits, but I could use a few. Let me know, otherwise, I'll look elsewhere. We still use them for connecting to Lab instrumentation, and they always Have a way of breaking. Thanks, Phil Guerra > North Kansas City Hospital > Information Technology Enterprise Technologies phillip.guerra at nkch.org Toll Free Relay Phone: 866-797-5805 AOL IM: Mycroft2800 Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 17:25:19 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:25:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: A note on Keyboard interfaces In-Reply-To: <4783ABCC.6000507@jbrain.com> References: <4781B99C.9060204@jbrain.com> <4783ABCC.6000507@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Is anyone offering bare boards for this? >> > I am, as shown on the pics. I didn't see anything relative to purchase, but will check again. -- From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Jan 9 18:16:26 2008 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:16:26 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. Message-ID: <26043400.1199924186690.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> This is precisely the reason I unsubscribed from cctalk and subscribed to cctech. Yet, crap like this still gets through. Suck. -----Original Message----- >From: jpero at sympatico.ca >Sent: Jan 8, 2008 12:53 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > >This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. >Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. > >http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht >ml > >Cheers, Wizard From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Thu Jan 10 06:53:28 2008 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:53:28 +0000 Subject: Warehouse in Vancouver, CA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 Jan 2008, at 18:21, Richard wrote: > Hey, whatever happeend with that huge warehouse full of stuff up in > Vancouver, BC? Wasn't someone going to go check it out in person? On 13/06/07, r.stricklin wrote: > On Jun 12, 2007, at 2:47 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Speaking of rescues, was there any word or resolution on that >> warehouse full of stuff up here (Vancouver/Burnaby, B.C.) from a >> couple of weeks ago? > > > Derek Peschel and I went up on Memorial Day. We spent about two hours > there, turning over rocks. Rawn was a pleasant host, but the > collection was about as I'd feared it would be: a vast bulk of highly > disorganized e-waste. 50% or more of the collection was made up of > Apple //e and //gs machines From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 10 08:39:42 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:39:42 -0700 Subject: DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:42:28 -0600. <58AEA561DB633B4F8557E19BD1F662C1CAA9A1@Belgian.nkch.org> Message-ID: In article <58AEA561DB633B4F8557E19BD1F662C1CAA9A1 at Belgian.nkch.org>, "Phillip Guerra" writes: > Don't know if you still have any of these connector kits, but I could > use a few. Let me know, otherwise, I'll look elsewhere. We still use > them for connecting to Lab instrumentation, and they always=20 > Have a way of breaking. If its DB25 <-> MMJ adapters you're looking for, there's a couple on ebay right now IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Thu Jan 10 09:03:58 2008 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:03:58 +0100 Subject: Detailed XXDP Information Needed Message-ID: While preparing to test some of my Q-bus equipment with XXDP+ I found out that most of the diagnostic programs are not very well documented (at least not in public available manuals). Information I need: - names and detailed descriptions of tests & subtests (e.g. diagnostic ZRXF has got 36 (!) tests) - description and interpretation of error codes and messages (e.g. diagnostic ZRLH: ERR 200 TST 20 SUB 000 "SK OP-FLAG MODE") Is there a comprehensive manual (not just only what's in the PDP11 Diagnostic Handbook XXDP 1988) available somewhere or has anyone got the sources for the following tests: RXV21/RX02: ZRXD ZRXE ZRXF RLV12/RL02: ZRLG ZRLH ZRLI ZRLJ ZRLK ZRLM ZRLN VRLB I know there are some XXDP sources online at Henk's website (http://www.pdp-11.nl/), but unfortunately not the ones I need :-(( Any help is very much appreciated! Regards, Ulli From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jan 10 13:22:19 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:22:19 +0000 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <002b01c8531e$7dac5770$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: On 10/1/08 00:19, "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: > >> You missed out the DEREN which was the correct answer to 'what shall >> I use as a repeater device on the other end of my DEREP' > > The device on the other end of a DEREP-RA would be another DEREP-RA. > The technical manual says that for local use you use a single DEREP-AA, > using an AUI cable from each of the DEREP-AA AUI connections to > H4000 vampire taps on your two thickwire cables to be joined. I remember this well, initially we were caught out because we were so used to putting H4005s everywhere, I can't remember how we managed to rustle up a pair of H4000s overnight :) I also remember getting grief from the local Digits at RKG (DEC Gateshead was the 'Royal Kingdom of Geordies') because we were breaking the 4-3-2 rule with a pair of DEREPs, they told us the correct bridging setup was DEREP - DEREN. > I _think_ that the DEREN worked the same way (single for local > use, two for remote use), and I _think_ it was later than the > DEREP. > > The installation manual for the DEREN-RA indicates that you could > put a remote bridge on the "other" end instead. This is probably what we were told to do, I can't remember what year this was unfortunately. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 16:01:43 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:01:43 +0100 Subject: looking for some Kennedy 9100 boards Message-ID: Hi, I know it's a long shot ... I am looking for the data terminator card and the control terminator card of a Kennedy 9100 tape drive. According to the doc, these small boards are also used in the Kennedy 9000. They are missing in my 9100. Thanks! Henk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 10 15:43:29 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:43:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: contemplating selling my Canon Cat In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 9, 8 07:06:38 pm Message-ID: > >> All of the I/O, Floppy, video, modem and such, are through custom > >> Canon chips. I'm told that they emulate standard chips because > >> they originally built the prototypes with standard off the shelf parts. > > > > Ouch!. Before I read that, the Cat was high uop on my (mental) list of > > desirable machines. Now it's at the bottom :-(. > > > > How much is known about these ICs? Software interface (registers, etc)? > > Pinouts? > The fail rate on these parts is quite low. I know a fellow in Oregon > that uses around 6 of these daily in his business. The only fails he's Err, yes, but it still makes the machine a lot less interesting for a hardware hacker like me. > had is one CRT and several disk drives. He has been using them > for years! > > The disk drive is hard to find. They have a 20 pin ribbon cable intead > of the more standard cable connector. This cable supplies the power as well. Is it standard signals and data rates? If so, presuamly an adaptor could be wired up. > > Like I said, these do emulate standard off the shelf parts, it > is just that I've not dug into the code enough to see what > might be the particular part used. I've seen the low level disk code > and it look familiar. I think it is 765 but don't quoke me on that. > The display is a question. I know there are several value in the init > routine that are sent to it but I have no idea what it might be. > > The video is bit mapped in RAM so doing graphics is easy enough. > > Anyway, the price is most likely higher than what you might expect. > The last one on ebay went for around $800. Unless your just lucky YEs, I realise they're not exactly cheap, and finding one in the UK is almost impossible (this is not the sort of thing I'd risk having shipped. I've seen what shipping companies can do to well-packed HP (== built like a brick outhouse) machines. Now while I _would_ consider spending that sort of money on a classic computer, I'd not now sped it on a Cat. The reason is that I couldn't maintain the Cat, due to all that custom silicon. And if one of those chips failes, I've essentially lost my money. Whereas if a TTL chip fails in an old minicomputer, I can probanly get the machine goign again. The chip in questiuon may well have not been made for many years, but there are likely to still be soem around and if not, I can get data and kludge up a substitute. This doesn't apply to the Cat's custom chips. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 10 15:51:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:51:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? In-Reply-To: <200801100012.05697.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 10, 8 00:12:05 am Message-ID: > > I need to determine the video signal level. Apparently VGA uses 0.7V > > p-p, so I might need to add a resistor in-line to reduce the voltage if > > it's any higher. > > Or more properly a voltage divider. Most VGA monitors terminate the input siganls into 75 ohms -- basically there's a 75 ohm resistor from the input signal to ground. You can use that as the lower resistor of the potential divider. > > Unfortunately I don't have access to an oscilloscope.=20 > > Too bad, as the peak-to-peak amplitude of the signal is really what you'= > d=20 > need to know here. > > > Could I just arrange for a full-screen white image to be shown, measure= > =20 > > the voltage using a normal DC multimeter, and multiply up the value > > shown to account for the proportion of each scanline corresponding to > > sync/flyback? > > Not likely. The first thin to do is to see what supplies the converter board takes. If it takes some high voltage (say around 40V), this could well be for a video output stage on that board, which will complicate things. Look out for any signs of a step-up voltage converter on the board too. Assuming there's just a 5V supply, I think it's safe to assume the video output siganl has an amplitude of less than that. A tirck I've used in the past to find the peak value of a signal in the absense of a suitable 'scope (in my case, the signal was a narrow pulse, so I'd hae needed a good storage 'scope), is to use an analogue comparator chip. Get a suitably fat one that covers the voltage range you're looking at and power it approriately. Connect one input to the signal under test (the video output signal here), the othre to a mutil-turn potentiometer conencted across a stable voltage source. Monitor the output of the comparator with a logic proe, and turn up the pot' until the output just stops pulsing. Now the voltage on the pot' slider is just above the peak voalue of the signal. And since that voltage is a steady DC one, it can be measured with a DMM. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 10 16:22:17 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:22:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1772 floppy controller hack... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my quest to use 1.44MB 3.5" floppy drives on my Ampro, I've found that the 1772-02-02 variant of the floppy controller chip can be "overclocked" to 16Mhz in order to correctly read/write 3.5" high density disks. Beyond needing to adjust the step rate to 6ms to compensate for the doubled clock rate, is there anything else I should be aware of? I've seen many mentions of this particular hack on the Atar ST line of computers to achieve the same goal, but I wasn't sure if there was some other factor I had to be aware of. Thanks all! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 10 17:13:20 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:13:20 -0500 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <26043400.1199924186690.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007901c853de$655bf6b0$f750f945@evan> This "crap" SHOULD get through. It's a perfectly okay example of something that's off-topic but still related to historic technology. -----Original Message----- From: Julian Wolfe (FireflyST) [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. This is precisely the reason I unsubscribed from cctalk and subscribed to cctech. Yet, crap like this still gets through. Suck. -----Original Message----- >From: jpero at sympatico.ca >Sent: Jan 8, 2008 12:53 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > >This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. >Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. > >http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht >ml > >Cheers, Wizard From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 10 17:24:34 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:24:34 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp11] PDP11 equip for sale, Tape drives for free Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:46:52 -0800 (PST) Groups: alt.sys.pdp11 From: will_kranz at softhome.net Org: http://groups.google.com Subject: PDP11 equip for sale, Tape drives for free Id: <03f08619-a296-4805-a559-12dd4e3e9bb8 at k2g2000hse.googlegroups.co m> ======== I've got to clear out mom's basement. I've put a web page together. see: http://www.willsworks.net/pdp11/forsale.htm Stuff's in Fairfield County, needs to either be picked up or you arrange shipping. Price negociable, but I want it to go to collectors first. Tape drives are huge and going to the dump this weekend if I don't hear from anyone. Regards. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 10 17:42:22 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:42:22 -0500 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <007901c853de$655bf6b0$f750f945@evan> References: <007901c853de$655bf6b0$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <200801101842.22355.pat@computer-refuge.org> I think that Julian was referring to it "getting through" to cctech, not cctalk. Pat On Thursday 10 January 2008, Evan Koblentz wrote: > This "crap" SHOULD get through. It's a perfectly okay example of > something that's off-topic but still related to historic technology. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Julian Wolfe (FireflyST) [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > > > This is precisely the reason I unsubscribed from cctalk and > subscribed to cctech. Yet, crap like this still gets through. Suck. > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: jpero at sympatico.ca > >Sent: Jan 8, 2008 12:53 PM > >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > > > >This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 minutes long. > >Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. > > > >http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.h > >t ml > > > >Cheers, Wizard -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 10 19:47:19 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:47:19 -0600 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. References: <007901c853de$655bf6b0$f750f945@evan> <200801101842.22355.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <021b01c853f3$e7344560$6400a8c0@BILLING> Pat wrote... >I think that Julian was referring to it "getting through" to cctech, not >cctalk. Because Evan wrote... >> This "crap" SHOULD get through. It's a perfectly okay example of >> something that's off-topic but still related to historic technology. Because Julian wrote... >> This is precisely the reason I unsubscribed from cctalk and >> subscribed to cctech. Yet, crap like this still gets through. Suck. Ya'll 'r nuts. Making a vacuum tube strikes me as rather on-topic and if I happened to be doing moderation that day - I sure would have passed that through to cctech. But that's just me, and not important. What *IS* important is that Lawrence works damn hard for a lot of thankless hours gating stuff from cctalk to cctech, and I don't want to hear any complaints about one or two things slipping through even if they ARENT on topic. Ya'll owe him some gratitude, not recrimination. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 10 22:47:54 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:47:54 -0700 Subject: Thanks Lawrence (whoever you are :) (was: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:47:19 -0600. <021b01c853f3$e7344560$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <021b01c853f3$e7344560$6400a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > But that's just me, and not important. What *IS* important is that Lawrence > works damn hard for a lot of thankless hours gating stuff from cctalk to > cctech, and I don't want to hear any complaints about one or two things > slipping through even if they ARENT on topic. Ya'll owe him some gratitude, > not recrimination. Yikes! Anyone moderating this flood of chronic off-topic meanderings deserves a thank you. I always wondered how stuff ended up on cctech. A big thank you to Lawrence for taking on the job, even though I've never benefitted from his hard work! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 18:48:47 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:48:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <575366.45414.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> just what is that spot welding contraption? It appears to work on a principle similar to a *resistance soldering* unit, that actually uses carbon rods (at one time you could pull them from batteries, not anymore though). Definitely wild, but just how varied are the devices that could be built w/those simple, though elegant, methods? All he did was build what appears to be an AM receiver. --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > OMG, that is soooo amazing. Proof positive that you > can make anything with > the proper tools. Mesmerizing. > > > On 1/8/08 1:53 PM, "jpero at sympatico.ca" > wrote: > > > This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 > minutes long. > > Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. > > > > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht > > ml > > > > Cheers, Wizard > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 18:51:47 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:51:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1772 floppy controller hack... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161099.42079.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> which *Ampro* are you talking about, and how did you manage the overclocking? If asked, I would have suggested, from memory, that the LittleBoard/PC already supported high density floppy drives, but I could be mistaken. --- Gene Buckle wrote: > > In my quest to use 1.44MB 3.5" floppy drives on my > Ampro, I've found that > the 1772-02-02 variant of the floppy controller chip > can be "overclocked" > to 16Mhz in order to correctly read/write 3.5" high > density disks. > > Beyond needing to adjust the step rate to 6ms to > compensate for the > doubled clock rate, is there anything else I should > be aware of? I've > seen many mentions of this particular hack on the > Atar ST line of > computers to achieve the same goal, but I wasn't > sure if there was some > other factor I had to be aware of. > > Thanks all! > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 19:20:09 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:20:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card Message-ID: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> I'm stumped. All I have to work with is a WinXP laptop that doesn't boot off anything special in particular. The CD drive yes, but that's about it. I once was able to make bootable CD's w/early versions of Norton, but I doubt that would work for a compact flash card. I had thought I could "format/s" inside a dos box...no dice. even the "format" option arrived at by right clicking doesn't allow you to create a bootable partition. apparently "fdisk" doesn't exist in XP. I don't even have my USB floppy drive handy. Not that I would imagine DOS 6.22 would recognize a PCMCIA slot. Is there a way of running an *alien* DOS within XP. In a DOS box in other words? No, I don't imagine so. Whenever you click on a foreign command.com, you get a "wrong version" message or something. No I don't have the WinXP embedded resource kit (there's a program called bootprep that allegedly might help). I'm not trying to work with XP, just utilize it to create a DOS-bootable device. help ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From root at parse.com Thu Jan 10 19:55:17 2008 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:55:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Comdyna GP-6 Analog Computer Schematics / Prints? Message-ID: <200801110155.m0B1tHO1024523@amd64.ott.parse.com> Hi all, does anyone have any print sets, schematics, maintenance manuals, operation manuals, or anything for the Comdyna GP-6? I just got one but need the docs for it. If you would be so kind as to CC me in your reply; I'm no longer a regular subscriber to cctech... Thanks! Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices, http://www.parse.com/resume.html Wanted: DEC minis, see their good home at http://www.pdp12.org From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 11 02:03:55 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:03:55 -0600 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478722EB.2060600@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > I'm not trying to work with XP, just > utilize it to create a DOS-bootable device. On what media? You never specified exactly what you were trying to make bootable, just tossed out "usb floppy drive", "CD", "compact flash", etc. Could you be more specific? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Jan 11 03:24:37 2008 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:24:37 -0800 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. References: <26043400.1199924186690.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001801c85433$ca088380$0201a8c0@hal9000> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:16 PM Subject: Re: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > This is precisely the reason I unsubscribed from cctalk and subscribed to cctech. Yet, crap like this still gets through. Suck. Maybe you should unsubscribe to cctech also !! / sac From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 11 06:09:04 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:09:04 +0000 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47875C60.30803@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/01/2008 01:20, Chris M wrote: > I'm stumped. All I have to work with is a WinXP laptop > that doesn't boot off anything special in particular. > The CD drive yes, but that's about it. I once was able > to make bootable CD's w/early versions of Norton, but > I doubt that would work for a compact flash card. You can't boot an OS from a CompactFlash card in a card reader slot. You have to have it in an IDE-to-CF adapter (which is a simple passive device, there's no electronics involved) connected to your HDD controller, so the computer sees the CF card as an IDE drive. If you set it up that way, then you should be able to format it as bootable. You certainly can using Linux, and it should be possible using DOS booted from a floppy. Of course, this might be problematic on a laptop! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From james.rice at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 06:44:04 2008 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:44:04 -0600 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <47875C60.30803@dunnington.plus.com> References: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <47875C60.30803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2008 6:09 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/01/2008 01:20, Chris M wrote: > > I'm stumped. All I have to work with is a WinXP laptop > > that doesn't boot off anything special in particular. > > The CD drive yes, but that's about it. I once was able > > to make bootable CD's w/early versions of Norton, but > > I doubt that would work for a compact flash card. > > You can't boot an OS from a CompactFlash card in a card reader slot. > You have to have it in an IDE-to-CF adapter (which is a simple passive > device, there's no electronics involved) connected to your HDD > controller, so the computer sees the CF card as an IDE drive. If you > set it up that way, then you should be able to format it as bootable. > You certainly can using Linux, and it should be possible using DOS > booted from a floppy. Of course, this might be problematic on a laptop! > > I'm playing around with a couple of CF to IDE adapters. So far I've gotten several flavors of Linux, DOS, Win98 and WinXP booting off a 2gb CF card on several different motherboards from AOpen, intel, Shuttle, Asus and Tyan. I almost got a small RAID booting with a pair of CF adapters and cards attached to an Adaptec 1200A IDE RAID card. I have a couple of old Dell and Compaq laptops to try next. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jan 11 06:45:58 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:45:58 -0500 Subject: Looking for old issues of Datamation, late 60's with Fairchild/SEL Advertisement Message-ID: <47876506.8070204@comcast.net> I'm hoping somebody might have some old issues of Datamation from the late 60's. Somewhere around '68 there was an Ad by Fairchild semiconductor showing a SEL minicomputer. Hopefully I could get the original, or perhaps a scanned copy. I'm trying to locate this for some old friends, we all worked there, they were there from the very beginning. I/we would be grateful for any help. thanks, =Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 11 07:49:20 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:49:20 -0600 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card References: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007301c85458$cb5cf020$6400a8c0@BILLING> This is far more than "a tad" off-topic as it stands.... From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 11 07:49:20 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:49:20 -0600 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080111074735.05787120@mail.threedee.com> At 07:20 PM 1/10/2008, Chris M wrote: >Is there a way of running an *alien* DOS within XP. In >a DOS box in other words? No, I don't imagine so. It's not quite clear what you'd like to do in the long run, but maybe try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox , at http://www.dosbox.com/. - John From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:18:05 2008 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:18:05 +0000 Subject: Atari SM124 and Composite Video Message-ID: <11c909eb0801110718r2bfbe62ele3e90533e9bbe779@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I have an Atari SM124 mono monitor with the crazy 13pin DIN plug. My investigations via google suggest it will take composite video on pin 2 - anyone know if that's right, and if so, could I use it with this Superboard II I've just been asked to revive? I'm assuming here the TV modulator on the Superboard takes a composite input, slap me if I'm wrong. Does anyone have a source for the female 13pin connectors, outside of gutting an ST? Cheers, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 11 09:36:05 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:36:05 -0800 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <575366.45414.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <575366.45414.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:48:47 -0800 > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. > > just what is that spot welding contraption? It appears > to work on a principle similar to a *resistance > soldering* unit, that actually uses carbon rods (at > one time you could pull them from batteries, not > anymore though). Hi It is a spot welder. It looks just like all the ones I've seen. It works as you'd expect. Current flows and makes the junction hot enough to melt. That is how all such things as connecting filaments to attaching plates to leads has been done since the begining. It is standard machine shop equipment. Although, a side subject, I like Jay, consider tube manufacture relavent to some of my computing equipment. Dwight > Definitely wild, but just how varied are the devices > that could be built w/those simple, though elegant, > methods? All he did was build what appears to be an AM > receiver. > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > >> OMG, that is soooo amazing. Proof positive that you >> can make anything with >> the proper tools. Mesmerizing. >> >> >> On 1/8/08 1:53 PM, "jpero at sympatico.ca" >> wrote: >> >>> This is in french but the video is priceless! 17 >> minutes long. >>> Worth taking your favorite drink and take a seat. >>> >>> >> > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.ht >>> ml >>> >>> Cheers, Wizard >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp >> >> >> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 11 10:22:07 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:22:07 -0800 Subject: SEL advert Message-ID: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History Museum archives. There are three brochures up here: http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=q-s&company=com-4374d2f82be79 From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jan 11 10:32:37 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:32:37 -0700 Subject: IMSAI C&K Switches (was Looking for IMSAI 8080 CP-A Schematic) In-Reply-To: <200801061800.m06I07hs075826@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801061800.m06I07hs075826@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <88A2663D-38CD-4977-98F5-74E9EF62CFD3@comcast.net> > On Jan 5, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >> On Saturday 05 January 2008 03:50, David Griffith wrote: >> >> And while we're on the subject of Imsai, does anybody have part >> numbers handy >> for those switches? I have several that are broken to replace. >> > > They are made by C & K. The 2-position ones are P/N 7101 and the > momentary are P/N 7105. You can order them from www.IMSAI.net for > between $11.00 and 12.00 a piece. Wandering through my inventory I came across a couple of dozen P/N 7101 SPDT (shown: ). It appears that these switches have the attachment for paddles, but are missing said ingredient. However, there are lebenty-leben varieties of these switches (see: ). Are these the switches used in the IMSAI and if so how many per unit? CRC From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jan 11 11:24:53 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:24:53 +0100 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... Message-ID: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> ... and was rewarded with a gift of 3 very rare Honewell Bull diskcartidges, which will go a long way in keeping my Lilith running for a few more years. And even more importantly, I got loaned all technical infomation on the Lilith : circuit decription, schematics, microcode listings, you name it, it is there ! Expect scans shortly ! ( and they have a nice Cray on display in their basement ) However I do feel somewhat stupid now, having spend quite a bit of time reversing engineering my own Lilith.... Jos Dreesen From mwichary at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 11:33:00 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:33:00 -0800 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> References: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <1debc0350801110933g61ee6721y8343b6825f783a55@mail.gmail.com> > > ( and they have a nice Cray on display in their basement ) Is this available for general public, or do you have to arrange something (or know somebody)? Marcin From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jan 11 11:53:38 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:38 +0100 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <1debc0350801110933g61ee6721y8343b6825f783a55@mail.gmail.com> References: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> <1debc0350801110933g61ee6721y8343b6825f783a55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4787AD22.4050500@bluewin.ch> Marcin Wichary wrote: >> ( and they have a nice Cray on display in their basement ) > > > Is this available for general public, or do you have to arrange something > (or know somebody)? > It is in the basement of the IFW building, for public viewing. A Lilith prototype and a Ceres is on display in the groundfloor Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 11 12:24:04 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:24:04 -0800 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... Message-ID: <4787B444.9090208@bitsavers.org> > Expect scans shortly ! very cool. CHM's Lilith thanks you! From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 11 13:04:06 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:04:06 -0500 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <4787AD22.4050500@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945@evan> IFW? ETH? How about, "HUH?" :) What are those? -----Original Message----- From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel [mailto:jos.mar at bluewin.ch] Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Went down to the ETH today... Marcin Wichary wrote: >> ( and they have a nice Cray on display in their basement ) > > > Is this available for general public, or do you have to arrange > something (or know somebody)? > It is in the basement of the IFW building, for public viewing. A Lilith prototype and a Ceres is on display in the groundfloor Jos From mwichary at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:10:01 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:01 -0800 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945@evan> References: <4787AD22.4050500@bluewin.ch> <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <1debc0350801111110sf661e8ek1d89199987758475@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ethz.ch/index_EN On Jan 11, 2008 11:04 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > IFW? ETH? How about, "HUH?" :) > > What are those? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel [mailto:jos.mar at bluewin.ch] > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Went down to the ETH today... > > > Marcin Wichary wrote: > >> ( and they have a nice Cray on display in their basement ) > > > > > > Is this available for general public, or do you have to arrange > > something (or know somebody)? > > > It is in the basement of the IFW building, for public viewing. A Lilith > prototype and a Ceres is on display in the groundfloor > > > Jos > > -- Marcin Wichary Sr. user experience designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jan 11 13:36:47 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:36:47 +0100 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945@evan> References: <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <4787C54F.9030701@bluewin.ch> Evan Koblentz wrote: > IFW? ETH? How about, "HUH?" :) > ETH : Eidgenossiche Technische Hochschule or Technical university of Zurich in Switzerland. Think of it as the swiss MIT. The ETH uses 3-letter words to name their buildings : IFW is the building for the informatics department. It where Wirth used to work. I do not have an explanation for HUH Jos Dreesen From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 11 14:17:10 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:17:10 -0500 Subject: Atari SM124 and Composite Video In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0801110718r2bfbe62ele3e90533e9bbe779@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0801110718r2bfbe62ele3e90533e9bbe779@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4787CEC6.8020406@atarimuseum.com> Yes, it will accept composite: Pin-outs: 01 Audio out 02 Composite video 03 General purpose output 04 Monochrome detect 05 Audio in 06 Green 07 Red 08 Peritel power 09 Horizontal sync 10 Blue 11 Monochrome 12 Vertical sync 13 Ground Connector is broken into 3 rows of 4 pins across and a bottom row of 1 pin across (#13) From the top row, looking into the male plug connector the top row from the right to left is 1 to 4 second row - 5 to 8, third row 9 to 12 Curt Pete Edwards wrote: > Hi All, > > I have an Atari SM124 mono monitor with the crazy 13pin DIN plug. > My investigations via google suggest it will take composite video on > pin 2 - anyone know if that's right, and if so, could I use it with > this Superboard II I've just been asked to revive? I'm assuming here > the TV modulator on the Superboard takes a composite input, slap me if > I'm wrong. > Does anyone have a source for the female 13pin connectors, outside of > gutting an ST? > > Cheers, > Pete > > From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 11 14:20:22 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:20:22 -0500 Subject: OT: science debate Message-ID: <002d01c8548f$660306b0$f750f945@evan> http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php This is a petition to urge all of the US presidential candidates to have a debate about scientific policy. (Just fyi, since cctalk is NO place for political talk.) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 11 14:32:55 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:32:55 -0600 Subject: OT: science debate In-Reply-To: <002d01c8548f$660306b0$f750f945@evan> References: <002d01c8548f$660306b0$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <4787D277.2030202@mdrconsult.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php > > This is a petition to urge all of the US presidential candidates to have a > debate about scientific policy. > > (Just fyi, since cctalk is NO place for political talk.) If you acknowledge that cctlk is no place for politics, what the fuck were you thinking? I don't expect anybody to care one bit, but I will unsubscribe permanently if bringing any mention of politics becomes acceptable here. Doc From molists at yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 15:37:45 2008 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:37:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Pet / CBM and Disk Drive in Los Angeles Message-ID: <773794.1664.qm@web45111.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No, not a 2001. Pickup only. No shipping. Inquire within. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 15:59:02 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:02 -0700 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:24:53 +0100. <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4787A665.9080900 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > And even more importantly, I got loaned all technical infomation on the Lilit h : circuit decription, schematics, microcode listings, you name it, it is ther e ! > Expect scans shortly ! *drool* Just what I need to be able to get my Eves in running order! Hopefully you have some information on the monitors so I can get my monitor working again? I also need information on the mouse/keyboard interface as I have neither for my machines. Do they have anything on Eves? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 11 16:09:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:09:07 -0700 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:04:06 -0500. <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: In article <000c01c85484$be9d5f60$f750f945 at evan>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > IFW? ETH? How about, "HUH?" :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Fri Jan 11 16:29:28 2008 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:29:28 -0000 Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? References: Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E18@exch-be09.exchange.local> IIRC someone suggested using a multisync monitor, that is likely to be the cheapest and simplest way ahead. SyncOnGreen to Grn should give you a nice green greyscale - white would require a video buffer (the problem is loading by the terminators - which might just be switchable / linkable). However UK prices for 19" NEC MultiSyncs are about ?200, i.e. double the price of cheap TFTs. Perhaps you can pick up a small second hand one. Boxes are available to convert RGB to VGA, see e.g. http://www.cadesigns.co.uk/mi1a.htm. Not cheap, just slightly less than a multisync monitor, but the target market is banking. I have used these for (VaxStation) VCB02 (RGB) to (VGA) TFT conversion. Although the Hz fit of the screen image can be a bit "iffy" - infinitely better than working on the console port. If you wish to roll your own, which I'm certain you don't, the Intersil EL4583 data sheet and associated apps notes are a good place to start. Additionally, the apps notes contain a fair bit of background information which may be of interest. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 10 January 2008 21:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? > > I need to determine the video signal level. Apparently VGA uses 0.7V > > p-p, so I might need to add a resistor in-line to reduce the voltage if > > it's any higher. > > Or more properly a voltage divider. Most VGA monitors terminate the input siganls into 75 ohms -- basically there's a 75 ohm resistor from the input signal to ground. You can use that as the lower resistor of the potential divider. > > Unfortunately I don't have access to an oscilloscope.=20 > > Too bad, as the peak-to-peak amplitude of the signal is really what you'= > d=20 > need to know here. > > > Could I just arrange for a full-screen white image to be shown, measure= > =20 > > the voltage using a normal DC multimeter, and multiply up the value > > shown to account for the proportion of each scanline corresponding to > > sync/flyback? > > Not likely. The first thin to do is to see what supplies the converter board takes. If it takes some high voltage (say around 40V), this could well be for a video output stage on that board, which will complicate things. Look out for any signs of a step-up voltage converter on the board too. Assuming there's just a 5V supply, I think it's safe to assume the video output siganl has an amplitude of less than that. A tirck I've used in the past to find the peak value of a signal in the absense of a suitable 'scope (in my case, the signal was a narrow pulse, so I'd hae needed a good storage 'scope), is to use an analogue comparator chip. Get a suitably fat one that covers the voltage range you're looking at and power it approriately. Connect one input to the signal under test (the video output signal here), the othre to a mutil-turn potentiometer conencted across a stable voltage source. Monitor the output of the comparator with a logic proe, and turn up the pot' until the output just stops pulsing. Now the voltage on the pot' slider is just above the peak voalue of the signal. And since that voltage is a steady DC one, it can be measured with a DMM. -tony From Gary at realtimecomp.com Fri Jan 11 17:00:55 2008 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:00:55 -0800 Subject: Free Pet / CBM and Disk Drive in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <319337E51E204C409B74389BFBC97E09@RealTime.local> References: <319337E51E204C409B74389BFBC97E09@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A3C8@server1.RealTime.local> What model, and where in LA? Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Mo > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:47 PM > To: Gary > Subject: Free Pet / CBM and Disk Drive in Los Angeles > > No, not a 2001. > > Pickup only. No shipping. > > Inquire within. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ __ > __________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 19:53:01 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:53:01 -0600 Subject: (Someone's idea of) Worst Keyboards Message-ID: <51ea77730801111753k6406704fpda405ef98fc1cfa9@mail.gmail.com> OK, there are a couple that belong there and were expected, but a few missing, and some that make no sense at all. The C64?? Sure, I still hit Shift-2 on occasion for a quote, but I learned my mighty speed typing skills on that 'board. I think maybe the author(s) were raised on the Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard, which IMHO should have been on the list: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,139100-page,1-c,keyboards/article.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jan 11 20:29:20 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:29:20 -0600 Subject: OT: science debate References: <002d01c8548f$660306b0$f750f945@evan> <4787D277.2030202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <004201c854c2$f04a9f30$6600a8c0@JWEST> As was obvious already by just the second post.... this thread should probably not be continued. Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 11 22:00:26 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:00:26 -0800 Subject: (Someone's idea of) Worst Keyboards In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801111753k6406704fpda405ef98fc1cfa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801111753k6406704fpda405ef98fc1cfa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:53 PM -0600 1/11/08, Jason T wrote: >OK, there are a couple that belong there and were expected, but a few >missing, and some that make no sense at all. The C64?? Sure, I still >hit Shift-2 on occasion for a quote, but I learned my mighty speed >typing skills on that 'board. Actually I thought his complaints about it had some merit, and my first computer was a VIC-20 (which I used for 4 years). I'd personally have added the VT100 keyboard to the list for the exact same reasons the author gave, ergonomics. But then in the 80's this kind of thing was normal and none of us gave it a second thought. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jan 11 22:50:27 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: All: I?ve been busy lately rebuilding the floppy system on my IMSAI. I scrapped the Frugal Floppy 8? in favor of a CompuPro Disk 1 using 5.25? disks to emulate 8?. This has been a long running project, but with the assistance from someone on comp.os.cpm who went through the exact same process with nearly the same hardware, I?ve been able to create a brand new CP/M 2.2 master disk. Yeah! Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb high-density; no schematic) drives I?m using is that the motor runs all of the time (just like an 8? drive) but these late-model Teac drives don?t have head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. The Disk 1 is based on an 8272 controller chip and it has a HDL (head_load) signal which, through jumpers can be made to appear on the *MOTOR signal pin of the standard IBM floppy disk interface. I tested the HDL signal and it activates at the right time, so its following the 8? sequence, but the pulse width leads me to believe that it?s too short to let the motor spin-up and go ?ready?. There is a way to control this with software...and I may go that route anyway...but has anyone done this sort of thing ? used a 5.25? HD drive to simulate an 8? drive and if so, which drives did you use? Any input appreciated. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From unr00ster at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 23:37:05 2008 From: unr00ster at gmail.com (UnR00ster) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:37:05 -0700 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card References: <899067.35450.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF4D788F67D4AED8B171ABF5357CBBF@Isolde> You could try a virtual pc... http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/virtualpc/default.mspx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:20 PM Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card > I'm stumped. All I have to work with is a WinXP laptop > that doesn't boot off anything special in particular. > The CD drive yes, but that's about it. I once was able > to make bootable CD's w/early versions of Norton, but > I doubt that would work for a compact flash card. > > I had thought I could "format/s" inside a dos box...no > dice. > > even the "format" option arrived at by right clicking > doesn't allow you to create a bootable partition. > > apparently "fdisk" doesn't exist in XP. > > I don't even have my USB floppy drive handy. Not that > I would imagine DOS 6.22 would recognize a PCMCIA > slot. > > Is there a way of running an *alien* DOS within XP. In > a DOS box in other words? No, I don't imagine so. > Whenever you click on a foreign command.com, you get a > "wrong version" message or something. > > No I don't have the WinXP embedded resource kit > (there's a program called bootprep that allegedly > might help). I'm not trying to work with XP, just > utilize it to create a DOS-bootable device. > > help > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Jan 11 23:39:19 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:39:19 -0800 Subject: Detailed XXDP Information Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47885287.6070809@mindspring.com> H?lscher wrote: > While preparing to test some of my Q-bus equipment with XXDP+ I found out that most of the diagnostic programs are not very well documented (at least not in public available manuals). > > Information I need: > > - names and detailed descriptions of tests & subtests > (e.g. diagnostic ZRXF has got 36 (!) tests) > - description and interpretation of error codes and messages > (e.g. diagnostic ZRLH: ERR 200 TST 20 SUB 000 "SK OP-FLAG MODE") > > Is there a comprehensive manual (not just only what's in the PDP11 Diagnostic Handbook XXDP 1988) available somewhere or has anyone got the sources for the following tests: > > RXV21/RX02: ZRXD ZRXE ZRXF > RLV12/RL02: ZRLG ZRLH ZRLI ZRLJ ZRLK ZRLM ZRLN VRLB > > I know there are some XXDP sources online at Henk's website (http://www.pdp-11.nl/), but unfortunately not the ones I need :-(( > Any help is very much appreciated! > Regards, Ulli > DEC diagnostics (of which I was the author of several way back when) were only ever documented in the assembler listing. Typically when a customer bought a particular option/CPU, they received paper tape binaries (or later, disk/magtape media) of the binaries and printed hardcopy of the assembled source (later on this migrated to microfiche as well). DEC never distributed (to my knowledge) machine readable listings and/or source files. All the operation modes and options of the diagnostic are given in the text at the beginning of the diagnostic. Sometimes there is a summary listing of tests, sometimes not. When a particular test fails, the expected process was for the FE to look at the test code in the listing and try and figure out what to fix (by the early 80s this meant board swap). So unless you can find program listings, most of the error messages in a printout will be esoteric at best and hard to connect to a particular failure. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 00:50:39 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:50:39 -0600 Subject: (Someone's idea of) Worst Keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801111753k6406704fpda405ef98fc1cfa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801112250o7faae93fg2c6a0e6cc6ba5c5f@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 11, 2008 10:00 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > same reasons the author gave, ergonomics. But then in the 80's this > kind of thing was normal and none of us gave it a second thought. Yeah, maybe that's the problem I had with it. And I have to give him credit for mentioning the holy Model M as one of the best :) From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 12 03:52:01 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:52:01 -0500 Subject: SEL advert In-Reply-To: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <47888DC1.8040608@comcast.net> yes, I've found that webpage before. I've been documenting many of the info and stories from my old friends about all the machines. Is there more in the archives which aren't posted online ? I'm located in Pittsburgh so it's not easy to visit there any time soon. Some of my old SEL friends live out there in Cali close to San Fran/San Jose. I might get them to stop by to take a look. =Dan Al Kossow wrote: > > We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History > Museum archives. > There are three brochures up here: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=q-s&company=com-4374d2f82be79 > > > > From carlos at navyaerospace.com Thu Jan 10 12:54:14 2008 From: carlos at navyaerospace.com (Carlos - NavyAeroSpace) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:54:14 -0200 Subject: Honeywell, Varian, and Teletype manuals for sale Message-ID: <000001c853ba$3a15d170$ae417450$@com> Dear Sir Please I need quote of price and lead time URGENT for the (CMM - HONEYWELL) parts following below EQUIPMENT MANUAL APPLICATION TRANSMITTER ELT HONEYWELL P/N: 1152682-1 MNUAL - CMM N. 23-24-01 EFIS DISPLAY CONT - P/N: 7012977-755 MNUAL - CMM N. 34-24-32 AUDIO PHASING - P/N: 064-1047-32 MNUAL - CMM N. 600-09381-0000 RADAR INDICATOR - P/N: CORRENT MNUAL - CMM N. 34-41-24 VSI - P/N: 066-5002-8102 MNUAL - CMM N. 34-45-25 MCDU - P/N: 82165-XXXXXX CORRENT MNUAL - CMM N. 34-53-07 TEST ON STS-100 AUTOMATED TEST EQUIPAMENT P/N: 7006326-XXX CORRENT HONEYWELL - SOFTWER P/N: MT7003360-9VR DISKETTE UUT N. 7003360-946 UUT DESCRIPTION AH-600 STRAPDOWN AHRU 01 SOFTWER FOR TEST SYSTEM - SPZ-6000 Please quote in OH, SV,REVISED - FLAT RATE EXCHANGE - With Form 8130 Please informe: Lead Time: Traceability: Warranty: Best regards and a have great day Carlos Silva General Manager N.A.S. Avionis Repairs Navy Aerospace CHE:0408-02/DAC (Ph.55-11-5044-3423 (Fx.55 -11-5044-1057 * Email: carlos at navyaerospace.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 15:10:26 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:10:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <478722EB.2060600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <467580.19160.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> the subject line wasn't descriptive enough? --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > I'm not trying to work with XP, just > > utilize it to create a DOS-bootable device. > > On what media? You never specified exactly what you > were trying to make > bootable, just tossed out "usb floppy drive", "CD", > "compact flash", > etc. Could you be more specific? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: > http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 15:12:17 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:12:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <47875C60.30803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <183257.62199.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> the computer in question, though I didn't mention it specifically, can indeed boot off of a compact flash card. I only mentioned the lt and all because that's all I have to create (hopefully) the bootable card. --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/01/2008 01:20, Chris M wrote: > > I'm stumped. All I have to work with is a WinXP > laptop > > that doesn't boot off anything special in > particular. > > The CD drive yes, but that's about it. I once was > able > > to make bootable CD's w/early versions of Norton, > but > > I doubt that would work for a compact flash card. > > You can't boot an OS from a CompactFlash card in a > card reader slot. > You have to have it in an IDE-to-CF adapter (which > is a simple passive > device, there's no electronics involved) connected > to your HDD > controller, so the computer sees the CF card as an > IDE drive. If you > set it up that way, then you should be able to > format it as bootable. > You certainly can using Linux, and it should be > possible using DOS > booted from a floppy. Of course, this might be > problematic on a laptop! > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 15:16:21 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: science debate In-Reply-To: <4787D277.2030202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <973635.58869.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> I mean really, the can of worms that had the potential to open up. Whatever happened to the spam filtering??? --- Doc Shipley wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php > > > > This is a petition to urge all of the US > presidential candidates to have a > > debate about scientific policy. > > > > (Just fyi, since cctalk is NO place for political > talk.) > > If you acknowledge that cctlk is no place for > politics, what the fuck > were you thinking? > > I don't expect anybody to care one bit, but I > will unsubscribe > permanently if bringing any mention of politics > becomes acceptable here. > > > Doc > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From prd at bur.st Fri Jan 11 16:41:05 2008 From: prd at bur.st (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:41:05 +0900 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <200801041800.m04I0WQT042928@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801041800.m04I0WQT042928@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080111224105.GA18983@bur.st> > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:58:20 -0500 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector > To: > Message-ID: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0 at andrewdesktop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi, > > Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with the > 22/44 pin edge connectors? > > I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably under > $10 a piece. > > I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be much > appreciated. Well, these boards are a bit over USD 10 each, but if you're after a versatile prototyping board that was edge connectors for the VIC 20, the C64, the C16/C116/Plus-4 and the Apple II line of computers, you might want to check out the '8 Bit Baby' at: http://www.protovision-online.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=97 You might find them a bit on the pricey side, but given the scarcity of these type of boards and the fact that you can use them to interface to several different types of computers, I reckon they're pretty good value for money. If you want to re-use them across projects, you can even solder strips of IC-style sockets to the 8 Bit Baby and build your circuits on daughter-boards instead. Hope this helps, Pete From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jan 12 03:36:11 2008 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:36:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: SEL advert In-Reply-To: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Al Kossow wrote: > We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History Museum > archives. SEL as Standard Elektrik Lorenz? Christian From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jan 12 03:42:36 2008 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:42:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> References: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > However I do feel somewhat stupid now, having spend quite a bit of time > reversing engineering my own Lilith.... Don't feel stupid... the same happened to us here with our first LGP-30. When we got the first in 1999 there wasn't any hardware documentation. In order to understand and thus to be able to repair the machine we had traced the complete wiring, drawn schematics of all the boards etc. You learn an awful lot of things when you have to do all this instead of just pokeing in the vendor-supplied maintenance manuals/schematics/. One year later we received several binders with LGP-30 and LGP-21 manuals from the manufacturer... Christian From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 12 05:19:16 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:19:16 -0500 Subject: also looking for old issues of Computer Design... Re: Looking for old issues of Datamation, late 60's with Fairchild/SEL Advertisement In-Reply-To: <47876506.8070204@comcast.net> References: <47876506.8070204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4788A234.1080506@comcast.net> I just remembered another magazine, Computer Design, might have this ad from Fairchild. I'm just not sure how far back this publication began. =Dan Dan Roganti wrote: > > I'm hoping somebody might have some old issues of Datamation from the > late 60's. > Somewhere around '68 there was an Ad by Fairchild semiconductor > showing a SEL minicomputer. > Hopefully I could get the original, or perhaps a scanned copy. > I'm trying to locate this for some old friends, we all worked there, > they were there from the very beginning. > I/we would be grateful for any help. > > thanks, > =Dan > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 12 06:22:38 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:22:38 -0300 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI References: Message-ID: <001901c85515$da19feb0$02fea8c0@portajara> > I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: - Activate DS0, motor starts to run - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job - Read/write Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 12 06:19:59 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:19:59 -0300 Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? References: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E18@exch-be09.exchange.local> Message-ID: <001801c85515$d9f16810$02fea8c0@portajara> >However UK prices for 19" NEC MultiSyncs are about ?200, i.e. double the >price of cheap >TFTs. Perhaps you can pick up a small second hand one. Martin, not all nec Multisyncs syncs down to 15 KHz, what seems to be the case. As far as I remember, only the Nec Multisync 3D syncs down to 15 KHz. But Samsung LCDs usually sync on 15KHz, maybe it is worth to take a look. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 12 06:06:25 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:06:25 +0100 Subject: Lilith connectivity was : Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4788AD41.10203@bluewin.ch> Richard wrote: > *drool* Just what I need to be able to get my Eves in running order! I believe Eve's are rather different beasts (32b vs 16b) > > Hopefully you have some information on the monitors so I can get my > monitor working again? Nothing on the monitor itself, but my monitor is a standard Ball WD17 unit, nothing special whatsoever ( has very slow fosfor though ) It should not be that difficult to diagnose. I also need information on the mouse/keyboard > interface as I have neither for my machines. The keyboard is 7 bit ASCII with strobe signal, the mouse is straight qaudrature output. I successfully used an Apollo mouse on the Lilith I will send you an Eagle schematic for mouse & keyboard > Do they have anything on Eves? No, I believe that was an US only thing. After the Lilith and Modula-2 the ETH went with Oberon and the Ceres-workstations. I'd be very interested in some Eve pictures ! Jos From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Sat Jan 12 06:51:44 2008 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:51:44 +0000 Subject: ST412 controller cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4788B7E0.9000903@poggs.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > If you want to make them, then it is very easy. They are just > straight-throught 20 (data) and 34 (control) cables. IDC header sockets > on one end, edge connectors on the other. I am not sure if Maplin still > do the necessary bits, but RS/Farnell do (and IIRC the latter sell IDC > ribbon cable in short-ish lengths). Maplin now stock a lot of their electronics stuff out-of-sight, and IIRC, you can check online as to whether a store has stock of what you want before you venture out. I think a trip in to town is in order :-) Peter -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 12 07:16:17 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:16:17 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: <001901c85515$da19feb0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: Well, it's interesting you say that. The Disk 1 has the provision to leave the motor running permanently or to put it under software control (it has to do with sharing an I/O bit on the internal serial port). Right now, it's strapped to run all of the time. The monitor ROM (which includes a CBIOS) doesn't have montor_on code. The drives are strapped for their respective DS (0 for drive 0, etc.). In addition to a Teac FD55GFR, I've tried a YE-Data YE-380 drive (from a PC/AT) which has HM and HS (head-on-motor and head-on-select) signals -- its set for HM. On 1/12/08 7:22 AM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. > > How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: > > - Activate DS0, motor starts to run > - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job > - Read/write > > Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated > permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 12 07:59:45 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:59:45 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: <001901c85515$da19feb0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: Ok, I fixed it. It's a combination of jumper and drive type. I got it to work properly with the YE-380 drive with the HS (head-on-select) jumper. Rich On 1/12/08 7:22 AM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. > > How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: > > - Activate DS0, motor starts to run > - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job > - Read/write > > Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated > permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 12 08:13:37 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:13:37 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <01C854FB.A0D383C0@mandr71> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:22:38 -0300 From: "Alexandre Souza" Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI >> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. > How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: > - Activate DS0, motor starts to run > - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job > - Read/write > Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated >permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? --------- As a matter of fact, the motor did run constantly on many 8" drives (remember that many had 110V AC motors). m From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 12 08:14:09 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:14:09 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <01C854FB.A1CDC240@mandr71> -----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI All: I?ve been busy lately rebuilding the floppy system on my IMSAI. I scrapped the Frugal Floppy 8? in favor of a CompuPro Disk 1 using 5.25? disks to emulate 8?. This has been a long running project, but with the assistance from someone on comp.os.cpm who went through the exact same process with nearly the same hardware, I?ve been able to create a brand new CP/M 2.2 master disk. Yeah! Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb high-density; no schematic) drives I?m using is that the motor runs all of the time (just like an 8? drive) but these late-model Teac drives don?t have head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. The Disk 1 is based on an 8272 controller chip and it has a HDL (head_load) signal which, through jumpers can be made to appear on the *MOTOR signal pin of the standard IBM floppy disk interface. I tested the HDL signal and it activates at the right time, so its following the 8? sequence, but the pulse width leads me to believe that it?s too short to let the motor spin-up and go ?ready?. There is a way to control this with software...and I may go that route anyway...but has anyone done this sort of thing < used a 5.25? HD drive to simulate an 8? drive and if so, which drives did you use? Any input appreciated. Thanks. Rich ---------------Reply: There are several different OEM versions of the FD-55GFR with various jumper options. If yours has one, put a jumper on the ML position and isolate the /MOTOR ON signal somehow (tape over pin 16). You will also have to change the DC jumper to RY in order to get a proper /READY signal. Whether it will ultimately actually work will depend on the controller; there are more issues with 1.2HD drives than one would expect. mike From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 12 08:23:02 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:23:02 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: <01C854FB.A0D383C0@mandr71> Message-ID: Yes, but the heads engaged and disengaged to reduce wear. On modern drives, the heads remain engaged but the motor stops. I've found that the YE-380 drive from the original PC/At works properly for this application, so if anyone has a working spare, I'd like to trade a Teac FD55GFR for it. On 1/12/08 9:13 AM, "M H Stein" wrote: > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:22:38 -0300 > From: "Alexandre Souza" > Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > > >>> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. > >> How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: > >> - Activate DS0, motor starts to run >> - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job >> - Read/write > >> Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated >> permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? > > --------- > As a matter of fact, the motor did run constantly on many 8" drives (remember > that many had 110V AC motors). > > m > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 12 08:47:58 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:47:58 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It must have been a fluke...I can't get the YE drive to operate reliably either. The drive won't recal consistently. I might try lengthening the HL time in software and then give it another shot. I may have to have to stick with the Teac drive and figure out a way to control the heads by software. On 1/12/08 9:23 AM, "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Yes, but the heads engaged and disengaged to reduce wear. On modern drives, > the heads remain engaged but the motor stops. > > I've found that the YE-380 drive from the original PC/At works properly for > this application, so if anyone has a working spare, I'd like to trade a Teac > FD55GFR for it. > > > On 1/12/08 9:13 AM, "M H Stein" wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:22:38 -0300 >> From: "Alexandre Souza" >> Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI >> >> >>>> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. >> >>> How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: >> >>> - Activate DS0, motor starts to run >>> - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job >>> - Read/write >> >>> Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated >>> permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? >> >> --------- >> As a matter of fact, the motor did run constantly on many 8" drives (remember >> that many had 110V AC motors). >> >> m >> > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp > > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 09:29:55 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:29:55 -0800 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: rcini at optonline.net > > It must have been a fluke...I can't get the YE drive to operate reliably > either. The drive won't recal consistently. I might try lengthening the HL > time in software and then give it another shot. > > I may have to have to stick with the Teac drive and figure out a way to > control the heads by software. > > > The fact that it works some time seems to indicate that you need to add some delay. For longer delays, most have a call to a delay routine. Look for a seqence of dec jnz dec jnz. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 12 11:03:36 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:03:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: stuff needs rescue in Pasadena California Message-ID: 20 or so years worth of stuff needs to be gotten rid of NOW in Pasadena California. I can't take this one due to time and space issues. Email me at the below address or my ACM address (my first and last name followed by acm.org). Here are the highlights: * A mostly full set of Byte Magazine. * First and second year of PC Magazine. * An Altair with a homebrewed front panel. * Several PCjr keyboards still in boxes. * An external 8-inch floppy drive. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 12 11:03:50 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:03:50 -0600 Subject: OT: science debate References: <973635.58869.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c8553d$1a72b430$6400a8c0@BILLING> ChrisM wrote... >I mean really, the can of worms that had the potential > to open up. Whatever happened to the spam filtering??? SPAM filtering is something that catches commercial bulk email, advertisements, etc. It's not going to catch a member post that isn't SPAM. But thanks for pointing out the deficiency, much appreciated. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 12 11:20:08 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:20:08 -0600 Subject: Thanks Lawrence (whoever you are :) (was: youtube movie of making avacuum triode. ) References: Message-ID: <002001c8553f$61727210$6400a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > A big thank you for taking on the job, even though I've never benefitted > from his hard work! Clarification... 1) cctalk is basically unmoderated (I mean from an automated standpoint. >From a policy standpoint I do "moderate" it). When someone offends they are told privately or publicly but posts to cctalk are not "screened". Well, other than for spam, OR, if it's coming from an account that isn't subscribed to the list, or, if it's someone I specifically tagged as "their posts require approval". 2) There are actually three people doing the moderation of posts from cctalk to cctech; myself and two other people. My impression is that the other 2 volunteered to provide a service and aren't seeking recognition or anything for it. I did not intend to post the name of one of the moderators (unless they wanted to speak up). However, a post indicating ambivalence (and a private one even indicating contempt) for that effort sure got under my skin and caused a knee-jerk reaction (albeit, IMHO still justified). Jay From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jan 12 11:24:02 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:24:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: stuff needs rescue in Pasadena California In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, David Griffith wrote: > Here are the highlights: > > * A mostly full set of Byte Magazine. > * First and second year of PC Magazine. > * An Altair with a homebrewed front panel. > * Several PCjr keyboards still in boxes. > * An external 8-inch floppy drive. update: * Rather than just PCjr keyboards, whole PCjrs have been found. * An ADM3 terminal of some sort has been found. I've just been informed that the creampuffs of this lot may/will be stored for later, but everything else must be gone by Monday. Email me ASAP or if you have my phone number, use that and I'll get you hooked up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 12 11:37:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:37:06 -0800 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: <200801121127.m0CBQsl9096975@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801121127.m0CBQsl9096975@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47888A42.17875.734083D@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb > high-density; no schematic) drives Im using is that the motor runs all of > the time (just like an 8 drive) but these late-model Teac drives dont > have head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. Since the 8272/765 does drive "polling", you have to connect DRIVE SELECT/ to DRIVE SELECT/. Connecting it to MOTOR ON/ would likely have some odd effects. Recall also, that the 765 can do overlapped seeks on multiple drives, which requires that the DRIVE SELECT/ line be what it says it is. Which leaves you with connecting HEAD LOAD/ to MOTOR ON/; not a good solution if you do a lot of multiple-drive operation (as CP/M floppy systems are wont to do). Better would be to use a timer to monitor the HEAD LOAD/ line and keep MOTOR ON/ active for a minute or so after the last drive activity. A (or a couple) of NE555's should do the trick. Recall that with the 55GFR, as the drive will not gate INDEX/ pulses until it's determined that the diskette's come up to speed. (This, BTW, is why hard-sector diskettes don't work in a 55GFR). So if you'r getting INDEX/ pulses, the drive, by definition, is ready. That's not to say that you couldn't get a GFR with a head-load solenoid, but they're pretty uncommon. My take anyway. Cheers, Chuck Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 12 11:53:13 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:53:13 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <01C8551A.6E6CE4C0@mandr71> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:23:02 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI >> As a matter of fact, the motor did run constantly on many 8" drives (remember >> that many had 110V AC motors). >> >> m >Yes, but the heads engaged and disengaged to reduce wear. On modern drives, >the heads remain engaged but the motor stops. --------- Exactly; that's why you're having problems. But A & A seem to think there's something wrong with /MOTOR ON being on constantly, which can be quite normal on an 8" FDC. Some FDCs do have an option to latch it ON with pin 16 and turn it OFF with pin 4 BTW. m From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 12 11:53:45 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:53:45 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <01C8551A.6F71D1A0@mandr71> -----------Original Message: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:47:58 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI It must have been a fluke...I can't get the YE drive to operate reliably either. The drive won't recal consistently. I might try lengthening the HL time in software and then give it another shot. I may have to have to stick with the Teac drive and figure out a way to control the heads by software. ----------Reply: If you're talking about a YE Data YD-380 (no suffix; the -B and -C are completely different drives), AFAIK it does not have the normal DC/RY option. Instead, it has an RY jumper with no pins provided which, when jumpered, puts out /READY on pin 4! mike From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 12 12:15:52 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:15:52 -0600 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <467580.19160.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <467580.19160.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478903D8.8020204@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > the subject line wasn't descriptive enough? No, because you didn't mention if you were trying to boot off of it in a reader slot, or if you had it connected to a CF->IDE adapter, etc. The IDE adapter will boot. The reader slot won't. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 12 12:26:20 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:26:20 -0800 Subject: SEL advert Message-ID: <4789064C.7090504@bitsavers.org> >> We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History Museum >> archives. > > SEL as Standard Elektrik Lorenz? System Engineering Laboratories mini/supermini manufacturer From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 12 08:39:13 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <0JUJ00CM4CPA5DG1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > From: "Alexandre Souza" > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:22:38 -0300 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. Forst if you running motor only when needed you need a delay in software for the motor to come up to speed (1 sec does it). > How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: > > - Activate DS0, motor starts to run > - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job > - Read/write > > Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated >permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? It's possible the connector is upside down. The other is the drive in use has a jumper for motor always on. Also DS0 (thats a zero right?) needs to be selected to read or write to the the zeroth drive. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 12 10:47:08 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:47:08 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <0JUJ00FHJIMH5J52@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > From: M H Stein > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:14:09 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >-----------Original Message: >Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > >All: > > I?ve been busy lately rebuilding the floppy system on my IMSAI. I >scrapped the Frugal Floppy 8? in favor of a CompuPro Disk 1 using 5.25? >disks to emulate 8?. This has been a long running project, but with the >assistance from someone on comp.os.cpm who went through the exact same >process with nearly the same hardware, I?ve been able to create a brand new >CP/M 2.2 master disk. Yeah! > > Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb >high-density; no schematic) drives I?m using is that the motor runs all of >the time (just like an 8? drive) but these late-model Teac drives don?t have >head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. > > I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when needed. >The Disk 1 is based on an 8272 controller chip and it has a HDL (head_load) >signal which, through jumpers can be made to appear on the *MOTOR signal pin >of the standard IBM floppy disk interface. I tested the HDL signal and it >activates at the right time, so its following the 8? sequence, but the pulse >width leads me to believe that it?s too short to let the motor spin-up and >go ?ready?. Cannot use that as the HLT parameter is soo short for adaquate spinup time. You might get away with it though as the FD55GFRs do spinup fast. The Disk1 Didn't have a direct motor control port like the 1A but it did allow for using the latch used for serial output to be used as a general motor on. Find MotorENA on the schematic. > There is a way to control this with software...and I may go that route >anyway...but has anyone done this sort of thing < used a 5.25? HD drive to >simulate an 8? drive and if so, which drives did you use? The DISK1 serial port if not used as boot console is a 1 bit port that can be controlled with software. It's in the manual, switch S1-3. The manual covers all the things for 5.25" floppies. To do a read or write you set motor enable, wait 1sec then read or write and reset motor enable. To minimize starts and stops a timer of 10seconds or more is desireable. Its the way I'd do it using the DISK1 and have done it with the DISK1A. The disk1A has a differnt specific port for that which is part fo the 1 to 1A differences. Allison > > Any input appreciated. Thanks. > > >Rich > >---------------Reply: >There are several different OEM versions of the FD-55GFR with >various jumper options. > >If yours has one, put a jumper on the ML position and isolate the >/MOTOR ON signal somehow (tape over pin 16). > >You will also have to change the DC jumper to RY in order to get >a proper /READY signal. > >Whether it will ultimately actually work will depend on the controller; >there are more issues with 1.2HD drives than one would expect. > >mike > From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 12 13:37:42 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:42 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <01C85528.B34119A0@mandr71> -------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:37:06 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb > high-density; no schematic) drives Im using is that the motor runs all of > the time (just like an 8 drive) but these late-model Teac drives dont > have head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. Since the 8272/765 does drive "polling", you have to connect DRIVE SELECT/ to DRIVE SELECT/. Connecting it to MOTOR ON/ would likely have some odd effects. Recall also, that the 765 can do overlapped seeks on multiple drives, which requires that the DRIVE SELECT/ line be what it says it is. Which leaves you with connecting HEAD LOAD/ to MOTOR ON/; not a good solution if you do a lot of multiple-drive operation (as CP/M floppy systems are wont to do). Better would be to use a timer to monitor the HEAD LOAD/ line and keep MOTOR ON/ active for a minute or so after the last drive activity. A (or a couple) of NE555's should do the trick. Recall that with the 55GFR, as the drive will not gate INDEX/ pulses until it's determined that the diskette's come up to speed. (This, BTW, is why hard-sector diskettes don't work in a 55GFR). So if you'r getting INDEX/ pulses, the drive, by definition, is ready. That's not to say that you couldn't get a GFR with a head-load solenoid, but they're pretty uncommon. My take anyway. Cheers, Chuck ----------------Reply: That was going to be my last-ditch suggestion for the TEAC, putting a one-shot delay on the /MOTOR ON line (Chuck, you know how I love 555s ;-). That delay on the 55GFR is not only a problem with hard-sector diskettes; when I went through this exercise replacing 8" drives on my Cromemcos (soft-sector), the GFR didn't work because the /DS -> /READY delay was too long, even with the motor spinning. Tying /READY to ground made it work and I suppose one could tie /READY to /DS with a diode if one had no other drives available. Interestingly, Andrew Lynch apparently got a different version of the GFR (-149 IIRC) to work on his Vector with HS disks, whereas my -159 never goes ready at all with HS disks. The YE YD-380 does have a HL solenoid but AFAIK it's not separately controllable; there's a pair of jumpers (HM & HS) that select whether the head loads on /MOTOR ON or /DS. Nevertheless, it's probably the closest to an 8" drive with a HL solenoid and constantly running motor. One thing I've learned from trying to use 1.2Mb HD drives in anything other than an AT is that among the dozen or so drives I tested there's almost no consistency at all as far as jumper options and labelling, /READY and /INDEX logic, etc. are concerned, even with different versions of the same make and model. One of the most adaptable drive in my limited experience has actually been the Panasonic JU-475 FWIW. mike From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 12 15:10:45 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:10:45 -0700 Subject: Thanks to Jay and all list volunteers :-) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:20:08 -0600. <002001c8553f$61727210$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: OK, I'll broaden my spectrum of appreciation! Thanks for all the hard work, Jay and all anonymous list volunteers! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rickb at bensene.com Sat Jan 12 15:18:17 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:18:17 -0800 Subject: SEL advert (question) In-Reply-To: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Just a question about SEL's history: Wasn't it bought out, or merged into Gould at some time? Anyone know when this happened? I recall for a time some computers being marketed as Gould/SEL. I think some of the SEL design ideas ended up in a wonderful machine that I once operated/administered running a Berkeley 4.3 variant of Unix called a Gould PowerNode 9080. This machine was built with ECL logic, and handily out-performed the VAXen of the period (late 1980's?) in a many user Unix environment. Al K. wrote: > > We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History Museum archives. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 12 16:17:32 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:17:32 -0800 Subject: SEL -> Gould Message-ID: <47893C7C.5080603@bitsavers.org> '82-ish http://www.paralogos.com/DeadSuper/Misc/Gould.html The Powernode was a 32 bit machine that had pretty decent I/O performance for the time. Some docs came along with the shipment from Germany (no machine though..) Have it scanned, will try to get it up on bitsavers. From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Sat Jan 12 17:15:16 2008 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:15:16 -0500 Subject: inexpensive prototype boards with 22/44 pin edge connector In-Reply-To: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000e01c84e8e$6d61aee0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200801122315.m0CNFHcr003627@ms-smtp-03.nyroc.rr.com> If you didn't find your boards let me know. Nanoman at stny.rr.com I also have some 22pcb "breakout boards", some pro-log boards, a mother board, a couple of cages, various cards At 11:58 PM 1/3/2008, you wrote: >Hi, > >Does anyone know where to get some inexpensive prototype boards with the >22/44 pin edge connectors? > >I am looking for something like DATAK or VELLEMAN boards preferably under >$10 a piece. > >I have looked but have not been able to find any. Any hints would be much >appreciated. > >Thank you in advance! > >Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jan 12 17:45:35 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:45:35 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP-M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <00a601c85575$3aa42670$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> -------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:37:06 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > > Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb > high-density; no schematic) drives Im using is that the motor runs all of > the time (just like an 8 drive) but these late-model Teac drives dont > have head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. Since the 8272/765 does drive "polling", you have to connect DRIVE SELECT/ to DRIVE SELECT/. Connecting it to MOTOR ON/ would likely have some odd effects. Recall also, that the 765 can do overlapped seeks on multiple drives, which requires that the DRIVE SELECT/ line be what it says it is. Which leaves you with connecting HEAD LOAD/ to MOTOR ON/; not a good solution if you do a lot of multiple-drive operation (as CP/M floppy systems are wont to do). Better would be to use a timer to monitor the HEAD LOAD/ line and keep MOTOR ON/ active for a minute or so after the last drive activity. A (or a couple) of NE555's should do the trick. Recall that with the 55GFR, as the drive will not gate INDEX/ pulses until it's determined that the diskette's come up to speed. (This, BTW, is why hard-sector diskettes don't work in a 55GFR). So if you'r getting INDEX/ pulses, the drive, by definition, is ready. That's not to say that you couldn't get a GFR with a head-load solenoid, but they're pretty uncommon. My take anyway. Cheers, Chuck ----------------Reply: That was going to be my last-ditch suggestion for the TEAC, putting a one-shot delay on the /MOTOR ON line (Chuck, you know how I love 555s ;-). That delay on the 55GFR is not only a problem with hard-sector diskettes; when I went through this exercise replacing 8" drives on my Cromemcos (soft-sector), the GFR didn't work because the /DS -> /READY delay was too long, even with the motor spinning. Tying /READY to ground made it work and I suppose one could tie /READY to /DS with a diode if one had no other drives available. Interestingly, Andrew Lynch apparently got a different version of the GFR (-149 IIRC) to work on his Vector with HS disks, whereas my -159 never goes ready at all with HS disks. The YE YD-380 does have a HL solenoid but AFAIK it's not separately controllable; there's a pair of jumpers (HM & HS) that select whether the head loads on /MOTOR ON or /DS. Nevertheless, it's probably the closest to an 8" drive with a HL solenoid and constantly running motor. One thing I've learned from trying to use 1.2Mb HD drives in anything other than an AT is that among the dozen or so drives I tested there's almost no consistency at all as far as jumper options and labelling, /READY and /INDEX logic, etc. are concerned, even with different versions of the same make and model. One of the most adaptable drive in my limited experience has actually been the Panasonic JU-475 FWIW. mike -----REPLY----- Hi, Yes, I can attest to what Mike is saying regarding the TEAC FD-55GFR drives. I have gotten the TEAC FD-55GFR -149's, -193's, and -540's to work reading 16 sector hard sector media on my Vector Graphic with the VEDMCS. The frustrating thing is that the TEACs *almost* work perfectly. There still is a problem that if the motor turns off, sometimes I get a "BDOS error, drive not ready" message when accessing the drive. It seems the delay to read the drive is just a tad too short. Oddly enough, the VEDMCS doesn't even sense /READY pin 34 so it must be computing this value based on /INDEX or /READ or some other value. I think tying the /MOTOR line to ground might fix the problem but then the drives would be constantly spinning and I don't want that either. When I use the Panasonic JU-475-1, I don't have the problem. As a result, I am probably going to upgrade the Vector to the Panasonic JU-475 style drives since those are the only ones of several kinds I have tried that operate trouble free. Once you leave the AT standard, the HD drives vary a *lot* and there is no telling what will work short of just experimenting and testing. There are variations within brands and models, the jumpers have wildly varying meanings, if they are even there at all. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Jan 12 17:51:21 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:51:21 +0000 Subject: PET power supply questions Message-ID: <20080112235121.GB2329@usap.gov> Hi, all, I've been collecting various classic bits to work on over the winter, including a pre-CTRC 32K PET board (2001-N/3032) and a Static PET board. I don't have any cases or accessories, but I do have a C2N232, a single bare keyboard, and a C=Key converter enroute. For video, I was planning on trying that ancient XOR circuit to make composite video from sync and video, and feed that to an old Panasonic mono CRT I saved from scrap. What I'm lacking at this point is a power supply. Obviously, I'm unlikely to find a suitable mains transformer, so I was going to cobble up some form of switcher that puts out enough of the right voltages to make this all work. Poring over the schematics for the 2001-N board on zimmers.net (e.g. 320349-9.gif), I'm guessing that the onboard regulator circuit is pumping out +5VDC at over 5A, +12VDC at a couple of amps, and a miniscule amount of -5VDC. I'm not running a real tape drive, so I'm not as worried about the +9VDC unreg. Does anyone have any reasonable estimates or real-world measurements for the current draw on the various supply lines? Has anyone out there ever gotten a PET to run from externally regulated DC? Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Jan-2008 at 23:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -13.9 F (-25.5 C) Windchill -32.7 F (-36.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.3 kts Grid 23 Barometer 686.2 mb (10395 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 12 18:59:06 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:59:06 +0000 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <183257.62199.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <183257.62199.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4789625A.9050709@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/01/2008 21:12, Chris M wrote: > the computer in question, though I didn't mention it > specifically, can indeed boot off of a compact flash > card. I only mentioned the lt and all because that's > all I have to create (hopefully) the bootable card. That's unusual, but useful. You should be able to format it using fdisk from something like a Knoppix CD. You probably could even if the laptop wasn't able to boot from the card slot, so long as you can read and write the card. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 12 18:55:45 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:55:45 +0000 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: <001901c85515$da19feb0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <001901c85515$da19feb0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <47896191.70006@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/01/2008 12:22, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I?m looking for some advice/whatever on engaging the motor when >> needed. > > How is DS0 line activated? As far as I know the sequence should be: > > - Activate DS0, motor starts to run > - Activate "head load" so the heads can do their job > - Read/write > > Since your motor is always on, seems that you have DS0 activated > permanently. Isn't something wired wrong? On a 5.25" drive, MOTOR ON a is separate signal to the drive select, so you can have a drive selected but not running, or running but not selected - the latter being common during disk copy operations. On an 8" drive, it's common to have the motor running all the time, since it usually runs off the AC supply. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 12 19:27:53 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:27:53 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? Message-ID: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Hi Guys, Recently acquired some VAXen - I have a soft spot in my heart for VAX/VMS as I worked professionally as a user on a VAX/VMS system for quite some years, however I have little to no experience from a system administration standpoint. What I have: VAXstation 3100, currently running NETBSD VAXserver 3100 - Installed hobby version of OPENvms on it. VAXstation 4000 VLC - Has a full VMS 5.5 installed on it. Datability VCP300 16-port LAT terminal server (The VLC appears to load LAT networking when it boots, but I haven't looked into it further yet) My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to another drive. Not quite sure what the best way to go about this is, and I want to make sure I *DON'T* cause any damage to it in the process, so I'm looking for someone experienced in VMS who can give be a bit of advice/guidance. I've got some documentation that I've dug up on the web including a VMS administrators guide, and I also have the full VMS 4.0 documentation set (about 3-feet of paper!). I've seen reference to booting stand-along BACKUP - I do have the OPENvms install CD which appears to boot to a configuration which can do stand-alone BACKUP (at least it can restore from a backup image on the CD). Possible backup media that I have available: - A pair of Exabyte HH-CTS 8mm DAT tape drives - A SONY SDT-5010 4mm DAT tape drive - SCSI ZIP Drive - Another SCSI hard drive Are any of these feasable as a backup medium for VAX/VMS? (All three of these machines have SCSI ports) If so, any pointers as to how to configure the drives/media to be recognized and accessable to the stand-alone backup, and info on how to perform such a backup would be most appreciated. I'll probably pull the original drive and install OPENvms to another drive for a "test run" before I try and backup the original system. Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator? So far most of what I've been doing has been via a serial console, however both the 4000 VLC and the VAXstation 3100 support keyboard and mouse - The VLC has a VGA video connector, and I've found a couple of LCD monitors supporting sync-on-green which work on it. I've also scrounged up an LK-201 keyboard which works, and I'm working on acquiring a DEC mouse ... I did figure out how to activate "dead rodent mode" which lets me do mouse movements through the keyboard, and DEC windows does come up and run! I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be interested in this? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Jan 12 19:47:13 2008 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 02:47:13 +0100 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20080113014713.GI9896@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2008-01-12 20:27:53 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > VAXstation 3100, currently running NETBSD > VAXserver 3100 - Installed hobby version of OPENvms on it. > VAXstation 4000 VLC - Has a full VMS 5.5 installed on it. > Datability VCP300 16-port LAT terminal server (The VLC > appears to load LAT networking when it boots, but I haven't > looked into it further yet) > > My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup > of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to > another drive. Not quite sure what the best way to go about > this is, and I want to make sure I *DON'T* cause any damage > to it in the process, so I'm looking for someone experienced > in VMS who can give be a bit of advice/guidance. The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I wouldn't bother with doing a file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be "quite small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg. 4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an identical drive. You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally to be able to restore to a different medium, though. > I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of > a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building > a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, > and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be > interested in this? That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement. Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box (with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9 world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Lauf nicht vor Deinem Gl?ck davon: the second : Es k?nnte hinter Dir stehen! From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 12 20:26:39 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:26:39 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <20080113014713.GI9896@lug-owl.de> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <64A7A1A0716@dunfield.com> > > My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup > > of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to > > another drive. > The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I wouldn't bother with doing a > file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be "quite > small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box > and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg. > 4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the > file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an > identical drive. I've already done that - I put the drive from the VLC as an external drive on the 3100 running NETBSD and dd'd it into an image file - but my goal is to be able to survive a drive failure, and possibly also move it to a larger drive. The original drive in question is an RZ23, which is a 100M DEC labled Conner drive - I have three other similar drives, two labled RZ23 and one Conner that are "really close" but not exactly the same - apparently there were slightly different variations and versions. > You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally to be able to > restore to a different medium, though. Exactly. If I understand it correctly, an image backup should restore to any drive, and is the best way to insure that I can rebuild the system in the future. > > I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of > > a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building > > a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, > > and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be > > interested in this? > > That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement. > Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA > and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box > (with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9 > world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.) I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to find, but PC/PS2 devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest, (or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jan 12 15:45:29 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:45:29 +0000 Subject: Mac 8100/200 is now suplus. Now Questions. In-Reply-To: <47470E0E020B1F5C@averell.tiscali.it> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Message-ID: <6bpm1d$561mcq@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> Just a moment and sorry that tube making didn't go to right emailng list but it was worth looking as this skill was the BASIS of making early tubes back then, in fact, hardly haven't changed at all and much of the refining went into increasing and making tube more sensitive and responsive. Now that is put aside... about the Mac that I no longer need anymore and sitting gathering dust. I tried to look around on ebay to see how much value on 8100/200 and google. no luck. Is anyone could take this Mac or in pieces? Have to ship. It's kind of upgraded in many areas: 2 HDs I think one is 2.1GB and other one unknown but i know both are 7200rpm (have to check) running OS 7.5 or something for speed. 192MB total of totally mixed memory, leaving 2 slots left and 256K cache stick. HPV video card 1MB with spare memory waiting to be filled up. CD 2X scsi as well. Been few years since I last used it, it's clean and running. Cheers, Wizard From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Jan 12 20:54:49 2008 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:54:49 +0100 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <64A7A1A0716@dunfield.com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> <64A7A1A0716@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20080113025449.GJ9896@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2008-01-12 21:26:39 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of > > > a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building > > > a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, > > > and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be > > > interested in this? > > > > That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement. > > Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA > > and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box > > (with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9 > > world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.) > > I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to find, but PC/PS2 > devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others > with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest, > (or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further. Keyboards and mice are comparably easy to get, but the graphics tablet was quite hard to find. Took me one and a half year to get one, just to test my driver whether it works correctly. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, the second : deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Ben Franklin) From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 12 21:08:29 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:08:29 -0500 Subject: SEL advert (question) In-Reply-To: References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <478980AD.8060409@comcast.net> Yes, the computer division was acquired several times actually. Initially by Gould in '81, briefly by Nippon Mining Japan(blocked due to national security conflicts with Defense contracts), then by Encore in '88, and then the Storage Products unit by SUN (the Computer products unit went bellyup as did the rest of Encore). It wasn't the same anymore with Encore, although they won some big defense contracts, they were constantly fighting against financial disaster. I was employed there when Gould acquired us, that company is still around but not into computers. It was kinda funny then, they're logo resembled the Pacman character eating a power pellet--it was during that heyday in arcades. So we made copies of the logo which included the eyes to match, the power pellet was renamed SEL--albeit to symbolize our internment by the new owners--and we put them on all the machines in the lab. The Powernode line let SEL/Gould continue to provide machines which had stronger benchmarks than DEC. I have a brief history that I've been documenting online together with some of the long time SEL engineers. I'm currently revising my homepage, it's still a rough draft, but you can see a lot there so far. http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_sel.html =Dan Rick Bensene wrote: > Just a question about SEL's history: Wasn't it bought out, or merged > into Gould at some time? > Anyone know when this happened? I recall for a time some computers > being marketed as Gould/SEL. > > I think some of the SEL design ideas ended up in a wonderful machine > that I once operated/administered running a Berkeley 4.3 variant of Unix > called a Gould PowerNode 9080. This machine was built with ECL logic, > and handily out-performed the VAXen of the period (late 1980's?) in a > many user Unix environment. > > Al K. wrote: > >> We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History >> > Museum archives. > > > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 12 21:23:28 2008 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:23:28 -0600 Subject: SEL advert (question) References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> <478980AD.8060409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <011101c85593$abee8c30$23406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Roganti" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:08 PM Subject: Re: SEL advert (question) > > Yes, the computer division was acquired several times actually. Initially > by Gould in '81, briefly by Nippon Mining Japan(blocked due to national > security conflicts with Defense contracts), then by Encore in '88, and > then the Storage Products unit by SUN (the Computer products unit went > bellyup as did the rest of Encore). It wasn't the same anymore with > Encore, although they won some big defense contracts, they were constantly > fighting against financial disaster. > > I was employed there when Gould acquired us, that company is still around > but not into computers. It was kinda funny then, they're logo resembled > the Pacman character eating a power pellet--it was during that heyday in > arcades. So we made copies of the logo which included the eyes to match, > the power pellet was renamed SEL--albeit to symbolize our internment by > the new owners--and we put them on all the machines in the lab. > > The Powernode line let SEL/Gould continue to provide machines which had > stronger benchmarks than DEC. > > I have a brief history that I've been documenting online together with > some of the long time SEL engineers. > I'm currently revising my homepage, it's still a rough draft, but you can > see a lot there so far. > http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_sel.html > > =Dan > > > > Rick Bensene wrote: >> Just a question about SEL's history: Wasn't it bought out, or merged >> into Gould at some time? >> Anyone know when this happened? I recall for a time some computers >> being marketed as Gould/SEL. >> >> I think some of the SEL design ideas ended up in a wonderful machine >> that I once operated/administered running a Berkeley 4.3 variant of Unix >> called a Gould PowerNode 9080. This machine was built with ECL logic, >> and handily out-performed the VAXen of the period (late 1980's?) in a >> many user Unix environment. >> Al K. wrote: >> >>> We have quite a bit of SEL documentation in the Computer History >>> >> Museum archives. >> >> >> >> >> We have complete SEL 810 with doc's, programs on paper tape, test equipment, spare parts and other items. It was turned off for the last time in July of 2006. We hope to set it all and have it running later this year. They had another complete system but we had to pass on it. John From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 12 21:23:38 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:23:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandberg 3820 wanted Message-ID: <200801130323.m0D3Ncin020464@floodgap.com> Anyone out there with a Tandberg 3800-series tape drive (TDC 3820 preferred) they'd be willing to sell? It needs to be firmware revision -07:01 or better (not = ... there's a difference). The PROM version should be printed on the back label under the manufacturing date, or you can open the top cover (T-10 screws) and read the label off the PROM sitting in the "cage". Let me know off list. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The most valuable antiques are old friends. -------------------------------- From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Sat Jan 12 21:36:58 2008 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:36:58 -0800 Subject: H.P. VECTRA 286 / 12 battery Message-ID: <4789875A.3020000@PACBELL.NET> I have a H.P. VECTRA 286 / 12 computer and seems to be loosing the battery... Is there any way to find the part number and is there any place to get one??? bob... RLAAG at PACBELL.NET From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Jan 12 23:05:19 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:05:19 -0600 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <64A7A1A0716@dunfield.com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> <20080113014713.GI9896@lug-owl.de> <64A7A1A0716@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920801122105t3bcd905ara919ceab751e80b9@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 12, 2008 8:26 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: Dave, > I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to find, but PC/PS2 > devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others > with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest, > (or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further. > I'm definitely interested. It'd give me a reason to put the color board back into my VS3100 M38, build a video adapter, and install DECWindows! (Is there really any other reason? ;-) ...Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 00:45:05 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:45:05 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <9e2403920801122105t3bcd905ara919ceab751e80b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> <20080113014713.GI9896@lug-owl.de> <64A7A1A0716@dunfield.com> <9e2403920801122105t3bcd905ara919ceab751e80b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4789B371.8090705@gmail.com> Josef Chessor wrote: > On Jan 12, 2008 8:26 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Dave, > >> I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to find, but PC/PS2 >> devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others >> with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest, >> (or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further. >> > > I'm definitely interested. It'd give me a reason to put the color > board back into my VS3100 M38, build a video adapter, and install > DECWindows! (Is there really any other reason? ;-) I've never had any trouble finding VAX keyboards or mice. The only thing I've had trouble finding of that sort is the breakout cable to hook the keyboard and mouse up to the D-shell connector on the back of 3100s. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 13 01:57:16 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 02:57:16 -0500 Subject: Mac 8100/200 is now suplus. Now Questions. References: <6bpm1d$561mcq@toip4.srvr.bell.ca> Message-ID: <003f01c855b9$ea0d25a0$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:45 PM Subject: Mac 8100/200 is now suplus. Now Questions. > Just a moment and sorry that tube making didn't go to right emailng > list but it was worth looking as this skill was the BASIS of making > early tubes back then, in fact, hardly haven't changed at all and > much of the refining went into increasing and making tube more > sensitive and responsive. Now that is put aside... about the Mac > that I no longer need anymore and sitting gathering dust. > > I tried to look around on ebay to see how much value on 8100/200 and > google. no luck. > > Is anyone could take this Mac or in pieces? Have to ship. > > It's kind of upgraded in many areas: 2 HDs I think one is 2.1GB and > other one unknown but i know both are 7200rpm (have to check) running > OS 7.5 or something for speed. 192MB total of totally mixed memory, > leaving 2 slots left and 256K cache stick. HPV video card 1MB with > spare memory waiting to be filled up. CD 2X scsi as well. > > Been few years since I last used it, it's clean and running. > > Cheers, Wizard An 8100/200 would be worth a mint since I think they stopped at 8100/110 before switching from Nubus to PCI in the 7500/100 and 8500/120 powermacs. Do you have some kind of G3 upgrade in there (they started at 233 I think)? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jan 13 02:58:28 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:58:28 +0100 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20080113095828.8057ce92.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:27:53 -0500 "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of > a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building > a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, > and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be > interested in this? http://www.kbdbabel.org/ -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 12 13:10:20 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:10:20 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <0JUJ00F5FP955GS2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > From: M H Stein > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:53:45 -0500 > To: "'cctech at classiccmp.org'" > >-----------Original Message: > >Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:47:58 -0500 >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > >It must have been a fluke...I can't get the YE drive to operate reliably >either. The drive won't recal consistently. I might try lengthening the HL >time in software and then give it another shot. FYI if the drive is at track 79... you MUST issue recal twice as the 765 only issues 77 steps MAX to recal. So if you get a recal fail do it again and see if it works the second time (I bet it will). Also if the step rate is 3MS set the 765 for 4ms. Some of the floppies need a 6ms step rate and if stepped faster they will miss a step (or many). There are three controls in the 765 HLT (wait for head load) for those drives that load heads and to let the carriage settle, step rate and head unload time (rarely important). This is set with the Specify command. Allison >I may have to have to stick with the Teac drive and figure out a way to >control the heads by software. > >----------Reply: > >If you're talking about a YE Data YD-380 (no suffix; the -B and -C are >completely different drives), AFAIK it does not have the normal DC/RY >option. Instead, it has an RY jumper with no pins provided which, when >jumpered, puts out /READY on pin 4! > >mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 12 13:15:26 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:15:26 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <0JUJ00F93PHM5T03@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > From: M H Stein > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:53:13 -0500 > To: "'cctech at classiccmp.org'" > >Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:23:02 -0500 >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > >>> As a matter of fact, the motor did run constantly on many 8" drives (remember >>> that many had 110V AC motors). >>> >>> m > >>Yes, but the heads engaged and disengaged to reduce wear. On modern drives, >>the heads remain engaged but the motor stops. > >--------- >Exactly; that's why you're having problems. But A & A seem to think there's >something wrong with /MOTOR ON being on constantly, which can be quite >normal on an 8" FDC. Some FDCs do have an option to latch it ON with pin 16 >and turn it OFF with pin 4 BTW. > Yes and when two sided drives were introduced the problem then was when the head were lowered they could "clap" the media can sometimes bite it. Two sided was a new set of problems. In the 5.25"world motors were a problem as they were DC brush motors that would wear both the brushes and the bearings (belt drive). Later drives like the FD55s have a direct drive DC brushless motor that has none of those problems. Anyone ever guess at how long the media lasts with the motor turning and head loaded in a clean environment? Months. Allison >m > From rckuhmann at charter.net Sat Jan 12 15:01:58 2008 From: rckuhmann at charter.net (Robert C. Kuhmann) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:58 -0600 Subject: CROMEMCO: The "Cro'sNest" lives! Message-ID: <016e01c8555e$5f6bdb90$650fa8c0@WineDoze> All: Re: CROMEMCO Looking for all manner of Cromemco (S100) items ...to buy or as contributions -- docs & manuals (paper or PDF), software & hardware. http://www.kuhmann.com/Cromemco/CrosNest.htm The above is my Silicon Valley memoir -- the long-time Sysop of the the "Cro'sNest RCPM-RBBS" 1977-1997 (formerly of Hayward CA & Sunnyvale CA, and France). Regards, Robert P.S. I have an implementation of MICAH CP/M 2.2 for the Z-2D (uses 16FDC). Seemed I saw someone was looking for that... P.P.S. My archives contain: S100, CP/M, CROMIX, Cromemo, uProcessor info, etc. -- all is on DVD's, e.g. (S100 2.0Gigs, Cromemco 4.3Gigs, CP/M 1.2Gigs, Vintage 3.54Gigs). Robert C. Kuhmann Delavan, WI USA From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 12 20:42:35 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:42:35 -0500 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI Message-ID: <0JUK00AFRA42IR90@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > From: M H Stein > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:37:42 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >-------------Original Message: >Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:37:06 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI > >> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0500 >> From: "Richard A. Cini" > >> Anyway, one of the issues I have with the Teac FD-55GFR (1.2mb >> high-density; no schematic) drives Im using is that the motor runs all of >> the time (just like an 8 drive) but these late-model Teac drives dont >> have head relays, so the heads are engaged all of the time. > >Since the 8272/765 does drive "polling", you have to connect DRIVE >SELECT/ to DRIVE SELECT/. Connecting it to MOTOR ON/ would likely >have some odd effects. Recall also, that the 765 can do overlapped >seeks on multiple drives, which requires that the DRIVE SELECT/ line >be what it says it is. > >Which leaves you with connecting HEAD LOAD/ to MOTOR ON/; not a good >solution if you do a lot of multiple-drive operation (as CP/M floppy >systems are wont to do). Better would be to use a timer to monitor >the HEAD LOAD/ line and keep MOTOR ON/ active for a minute or so >after the last drive activity. A (or a couple) of NE555's should do >the trick. > >Recall that with the 55GFR, as the drive will not gate INDEX/ pulses >until it's determined that the diskette's come up to speed. (This, >BTW, is why hard-sector diskettes don't work in a 55GFR). So if >you'r getting INDEX/ pulses, the drive, by definition, is ready. Really, I'll have to tell my NS* it doesnt work.. mine seems to like it. >That's not to say that you couldn't get a GFR with a head-load >solenoid, but they're pretty uncommon. > >My take anyway. Never seen one with it and I've seen and have at elast five differnt versions including one with a door lock. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck > >----------------Reply: > >That was going to be my last-ditch suggestion for the TEAC, putting a >one-shot delay on the /MOTOR ON line (Chuck, you know how I love 555s ;-). > >That delay on the 55GFR is not only a problem with hard-sector diskettes; >when I went through this exercise replacing 8" drives on my Cromemcos >(soft-sector), the GFR didn't work because the /DS -> /READY delay was >too long, even with the motor spinning. Tying /READY to ground made it >work and I suppose one could tie /READY to /DS with a diode if one >had no other drives available. > >Interestingly, Andrew Lynch apparently got a different version of the GFR >(-149 IIRC) to work on his Vector with HS disks, whereas my -159 never >goes ready at all with HS disks. > >The YE YD-380 does have a HL solenoid but AFAIK it's not separately >controllable; there's a pair of jumpers (HM & HS) that select whether >the head loads on /MOTOR ON or /DS. Nevertheless, it's probably >the closest to an 8" drive with a HL solenoid and constantly running >motor. > >One thing I've learned from trying to use 1.2Mb HD drives in anything >other than an AT is that among the dozen or so drives I tested there's >almost no consistency at all as far as jumper options and labelling, >/READY and /INDEX logic, etc. are concerned, even with different >versions of the same make and model. > >One of the most adaptable drive in my limited experience has actually >been the Panasonic JU-475 FWIW. > >mike > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 12 20:52:15 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:52:15 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? Message-ID: <0JUK00AZRAK5GT90@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:27:53 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi Guys, > >Recently acquired some VAXen - I have a soft spot in my heart >for VAX/VMS as I worked professionally as a user on a VAX/VMS >system for quite some years, however I have little to no >experience from a system administration standpoint. > >What I have: > >VAXstation 3100, currently running NETBSD >VAXserver 3100 - Installed hobby version of OPENvms on it. >VAXstation 4000 VLC - Has a full VMS 5.5 installed on it. >Datability VCP300 16-port LAT terminal server (The VLC >appears to load LAT networking when it boots, but I haven't >looked into it further yet) > >My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup >of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to >another drive. Not quite sure what the best way to go about >this is, and I want to make sure I *DON'T* cause any damage >to it in the process, so I'm looking for someone experienced >in VMS who can give be a bit of advice/guidance. > >I've got some documentation that I've dug up on the web >including a VMS administrators guide, and I also have the >full VMS 4.0 documentation set (about 3-feet of paper!). > >I've seen reference to booting stand-along BACKUP - I do have >the OPENvms install CD which appears to boot to a configuration >which can do stand-alone BACKUP (at least it can restore from a >backup image on the CD). > >Possible backup media that I have available: > - A pair of Exabyte HH-CTS 8mm DAT tape drives > - A SONY SDT-5010 4mm DAT tape drive > - SCSI ZIP Drive > - Another SCSI hard drive > >Are any of these feasable as a backup medium for VAX/VMS? >(All three of these machines have SCSI ports) If so, any pointers >as to how to configure the drives/media to be recognized and >accessable to the stand-alone backup, and info on how to perform >such a backup would be most appreciated. I'll probably pull the >original drive and install OPENvms to another drive for a "test >run" before I try and backup the original system. > For VMS: Backup /image to another SCSI disk is easiest (I clone VMS systems that way). Or backup /image to a tape large enough to hold an entire disk. I have a sony (DEC TLZ04) 4mm DAT and backing up to a spare disk is easiest and the resulting disk is bootable should the first one fail. Also you can install a second or even third scsi disk and have a multiple boot system. Just set the console to not boot the existing disk. Then you can issue a "bo DUAn". For NonVMS OS such as NetBSD I think you need to refer to the unix realm and do a backup using TAR (it's been years). > >Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator? > >So far most of what I've been doing has been via a serial console, >however both the 4000 VLC and the VAXstation 3100 support keyboard >and mouse - The VLC has a VGA video connector, and I've found a >couple of LCD monitors supporting sync-on-green which work on it. >I've also scrounged up an LK-201 keyboard which works, and I'm >working on acquiring a DEC mouse ... I did figure out how to activate >"dead rodent mode" which lets me do mouse movements through the >keyboard, and DEC windows does come up and run! > >I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of >a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building >a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, >and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be >interested in this? I have real DEC Hawley mice and use them with a VT1200 Xterm. Allison >Regards, >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From akitaishi at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 02:33:38 2008 From: akitaishi at gmail.com (Jason Ng) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:33:38 +0800 Subject: CFX-40 Message-ID: <227333080801130033k254fcb05i6ba8d5ccde09b484@mail.gmail.com> Hi , I am looking for a CFX-40 watch and was wondering if you still have any more Mint ones or new ones to sell ? I recalled your msg from a yahoo search but i reckon that it must be some time back. Regards, Jason From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 13 09:04:55 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:04:55 -0500 Subject: SEL advert (question) In-Reply-To: <011101c85593$abee8c30$23406b43@66067007> References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> <478980AD.8060409@comcast.net> <011101c85593$abee8c30$23406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <478A2897.3090901@comcast.net> That's really nice to hear about this. I'll have to tell my old friends about this. Whereabouts is this located ? There's still a complete facility in operation that's 4 acres large at Vandeberg AFB with 22 machines using 32/55 and 32/75 series along with 2 CDC Cyber 840 machines. This is still reliable after 30yrs and used for missile launch control in the TIPS system. One of my friends runs a maintenance company that provides support to this operation. I just heard from Al Kossow that there's also a 810 machine at the Houston Computer museum. Keys wrote: > > We have complete SEL 810 with doc's, programs on paper tape, test > equipment, spare parts and other items. It was turned off for the last > time in July of 2006. We hope to set it all and have it running later > this year. They had another complete system but we had to pass on it. > John > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 13 10:33:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:33:05 -0800 Subject: Creating new CP/M disks - Progress on IMSAI In-Reply-To: <200801130905.m0D95QSm003757@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801130905.m0D95QSm003757@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4789CCC1.4940.C1FC3D9@cclist.sydex.com> > From: M H Stein > Interestingly, Andrew Lynch apparently got a different version of the GFR > (-149 IIRC) to work on his Vector with HS disks, whereas my -159 never > goes ready at all with HS disks. I was trying to oversimplify a bit on my reply; Teac drives across any single product line have a tremendous potential for variability. The last thing in the world I wanted was for someone to hunt down a set of FD-55GFR drives and report back that they didn't work. The same variability is present in 3.5" Teac drives--the 235HFs come in many varieties; some offer many options; others offer next to none. Undocumented jumpers and pads on drive PCBs are even wilder in assortment and presence/absence. I've had pretty good luck with Mitsubishi and NEC floppy drives manufactured for the Japanese market (PC9801-style systems). As the floppy format is based on an 8" model and doesn't change much across physical formats, the drives themselves tend to behave when pressed into use in 8" applications. They can be tough to find on this side of the Pacific, however. Generally, the later a drive is manufactured, the more "smarts" are used in its drive control logic--and the less it will be suited for non-PC use. I was surprised to find that there's a Toshiba 3.5" floppy (ca. 1996) that senses the data rate on HD diskettes and automatically changes its spindle speed. You can read, write and format 1440 KB on it and read and write 1232 KB, much like many USB and IDE floppy drives. The idea probably was that there were still a lot of DOS-V format floppies hanging around Japan and wouldn't it be nice to be able to read and write them on a "generic" PC... Heaven only knows what the drive would do with some nonstandard data rate or modulation. Hope this helps, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 13 10:34:51 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:34:51 -0800 Subject: Backing up VMS In-Reply-To: <200801130905.m0D95QSr003757@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801130905.m0D95QSr003757@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5C240C2D-12F1-4A56-A77D-A4251D984F71@valleyimplants.com> On Jan 13, 2008, at 1:05 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>> My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup >>> of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to >>> another drive. > >> The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I wouldn't bother with >> doing a >> file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be >> "quite >> small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box >> and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg. >> 4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the >> file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an >> identical drive. > > I've already done that - I put the drive from the VLC as an external > drive on the 3100 running NETBSD and dd'd it into an image file - but > my goal is to be able to survive a drive failure, and possibly also > move it to a larger drive. The original drive in question is an RZ23, > which is a 100M DEC labled Conner drive - I have three other similar > drives, two labled RZ23 and one Conner that are "really close" but > not exactly the same - apparently there were slightly different > variations and versions. > >> You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally to be able to >> restore to a different medium, though. > > Exactly. If I understand it correctly, an image backup should restore > to any drive, and is the best way to insure that I can rebuild the > system in the future. Why not write out a BACKUP tape with standalone BACKUP at the front so you can do a restore install? Only read about it being done on TKxx/TZxx drives, but it would be worth looking into, as it is the "official" DEC way to build a restorable backup (and is how they shipped the VMS tape distros) (haven't read too much about it because I don't have any CompacTape media right now). From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jan 13 12:30:30 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:30:30 -0500 Subject: Wavemate Bullet / Wave Mate Bullet Message-ID: <000001c85612$60c98a00$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Does anyone have a WaveMate Bullet machines? Does it work? It appears to be a single board CP/M computer with two 5.25" floppy disk drives. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jan 13 13:46:34 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:46:34 -0800 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <003a01c8561d$00c722b0$02556810$@com> > Dave Dunfield wrote: >Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator? >I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of >a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building >a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, >and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be >interested in this? I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice. I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware. Bob Armstrong From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Jan 13 08:56:22 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:56:22 +0000 Subject: WHOOPS Mac powerpc 8500 200 not 8100. Message-ID: <6bpki0$7p8na2@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> Whoops! Susplus to me now, in parts or whole for little money. Have to ship it at your expense. I meant Mac Powerpc 8500 200 A/V. The details follows: 192mb of different memory and 2 slots left, 256K cache stick, Have RCA style A/V composite input and output with s-video ports, at least 2.1GB 7200rpm and other HD of unknown size but also 7200. 2X cdrom scsi. Cheers, Wizard From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jan 13 14:22:49 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:22:49 -0600 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <003a01c8561d$00c722b0$02556810$@com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> <003a01c8561d$00c722b0$02556810$@com> Message-ID: <478A7319.7010902@jbrain.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: > >> I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of >> a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building >> a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, >> and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be >> interested in this? >> > > I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or > mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM > switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it > can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice. > > I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious > I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware. > Would this work help in any way: http://www.kbdbabel.org/ "PS2 Keyboard ---> DEC VT320 ..." Jim From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 13 14:29:12 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:29:12 +0000 Subject: Sony 2.88 floppy pin outs needed Message-ID: <011320082029.1863.478A7497000892800000074722230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I'm working on putting a 2.88 Sony floppy on a NeXT Cube that was upgraded to a 68040. So it has a floppy connection on the mother board. I have the pin-outs for the Next but not for the Floppy. Since the power comes through the interface cable and so does other 2.88 specific signals, I dont want to take a chance on trial by Error........ Looks like there was a ever changing standard on the 2.88 interface. Can't seem to find any searches that help. Drive is a Sony MP-F40W-25 Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 13 14:39:28 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. Message-ID: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Just grabbed 3 HP 7980 9 track tape drives on there way to the scraper. I have too many already.(20+) free for pickup in Kent wa. 2 are SCSI, 1 is HPIB. ((1) is a 7980S) Front loading, all look to be in good condition No Shipping - Jerry Jerry Wright From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 13 14:40:49 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:40:49 -0800 Subject: Backing up VMS In-Reply-To: <5C240C2D-12F1-4A56-A77D-A4251D984F71@valleyimplants.com> References: <200801130905.m0D95QSr003757@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5C240C2D-12F1-4A56-A77D-A4251D984F71@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 8:34 AM -0800 1/13/08, Scott Quinn wrote: >Why not write out a BACKUP tape with standalone BACKUP at the front >so you can do a restore install? Only read about it being done on >TKxx/TZxx drives, but it would be worth looking into, as it is the >"official" DEC way to build a restorable backup (and is how they >shipped the VMS tape distros) (haven't read too much about it >because I don't have any CompacTape media right now). I personally prefer a CD with Standalone Backup, that way you don't have to worry about the tape going bad. But then I prefer CD's on my PDP-11's where possible, so I don't have normal setups. :^) I know on VAXen you can build Standalone Backup on a HD, I believe this feature was dropped from Alpha after 6.1. For my main box, a Compaq XP1000/667, I keep a combination of spare HD's and a DLT tape or two with my system disk on it. Since it is an Alpha, I boot from CD to backup/duplicate the system disk. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 13 14:36:37 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:36:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thanks Lawrence (whoever you are :) (was: youtube movie of making avacuum triode. ) In-Reply-To: <002001c8553f$61727210$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <002001c8553f$61727210$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200801132044.PAA16288@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 2) There are actually three people doing the moderation of posts from > cctalk to cctech; myself and two other people. You three each deserve a huge kudos for taking on such a thankless task at all, and another for sticking with it. > However, a post indicating ambivalence (and a private one even > indicating contempt) for that effort sure got under my skin and > caused a knee-jerk reaction (albeit, IMHO still justified). IMHO too. I don't always like where you draw the line between on-topic and off-topic, and disagree with a few other choices you make. But I don't think I'd do much better (except possibly if "better" is measured by "how in line with Mouse's preferences"), and the list as it is is a *hell* of a lot better than nothing at all. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jan 13 14:45:26 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:45:26 -0800 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: Hello, Jerry, I could potentialy come up to Kent (I live in the PDX area) later this week or the coming weekend and pick up one (or both) of the SCSI drives. I have a small (Toyota 4x4) pickup, would this be large enough? That's assuming they're not already gone. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of g-wright at att.net > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:39 PM > To: cc_talk > Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. > > Just grabbed 3 HP 7980 9 track tape drives on there way to > the scraper. I have too many already.(20+) free for pickup > in Kent wa. 2 are SCSI, 1 is HPIB. ((1) is a 7980S) Front > loading, all look to be in good condition > > No Shipping > > - Jerry > Jerry Wright > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 15:02:53 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:02:53 +0000 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0801131302g263bf212r3de3e050a7f514d4@mail.gmail.com> On 09/01/2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party producing > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From g-wright at att.net Sun Jan 13 15:07:00 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:07:00 +0000 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals Message-ID: <011320082107.2339.478A7D73000CC3F00000092322230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I seem to have my share of Terminals that have bad keyboard parts. 3 that I'm working now have the same type of Keyboard. These are Hazeltine 1500 and ADM 3As. These have an molded base with fingers that stick up and a second square piece that slide into the base and makes and breaks the finger contact. It also has a square opening in the top for the key cap. So when someone drops a heavy object on the the key board this intermediate piece cracks in the corners and binds in the base. What I would like to find is a doner type of system that does not have any value so I can rob the middle piece.. (typewiter) ??? Tandy (Archer) sold a Alpha-Numrtic keyboard that said it was made for the TI 99/4 computer. It used the same switch type keyboard. - Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 13 11:55:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:55:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PET power supply questions In-Reply-To: <20080112235121.GB2329@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 12, 8 11:51:21 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, all, > > I've been collecting various classic bits to work on over the winter, > including a pre-CTRC 32K PET board (2001-N/3032) and a Static PET > board. I don't have any cases or accessories, but I do have a C2N232, > a single bare keyboard, and a C=Key converter enroute. For video, I > was planning on trying that ancient XOR circuit to make composite video > from sync and video, and feed that to an old Panasonic mono CRT I saved > from scrap. What I'm lacking at this point is a power supply. I elieve the 8296D (internal floppy drives) PET used a switching supply. Do any docs for that machine exist, I wonder... > > Obviously, I'm unlikely to find a suitable mains transformer, so I was Actually, I do have a 'spare' PET mains transformer somewhere, from sombody who converterd a PET to the intenral drive model. The problems would be (a) getting it to you and (b) it's the 240V-input version, and (c) finding the darn thing. You could consider winding the transformer. You can get 'transformer kits' I believe that come with pre-wound primary windings to suit mains, and a set of laminations. You wind the secodnaries (the instructions tell you how many turns/volt to use) with suitable wire and put it together. Said kits come in differnt total power ratings, either work out the total power used by the PET, or estimate it from the size of the origjnal transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 13 12:15:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:15:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tandon TM100 track 0 switch Message-ID: Just in case anyome else fixes TM100s... As is well-known, the track0 sensor in these drives is a microswitch. It's a standard V?-size one, but iwth a low operating force. One of mine failed (in an HP9836, if it matters), and I've found that RS (not Radio Shack, but http://www.rswww.com) 472-8005 is a perfect replacement. It's got the same connecitons (simply move the wires over tag-to-tag), and fits the original brackets with no problems. -tony From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jan 13 16:18:41 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:18:41 -0800 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: References: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: Sorry all, somehow I ended up sending this to the list rather than private mail. -Rick > > Hello, Jerry, > > I could potentialy come up to Kent (I live in the PDX area) > later this week or the coming weekend and pick up one (or > both) of the SCSI drives. > ... From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sun Jan 13 16:22:17 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:22:17 -0500 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . Message-ID: <8CA2449E3D41D9F-7FC-1419@WEBMAIL-DC03.sysops.aol.com> Someone just posted a complete 11/70 board set on e-bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300190400927 -Snip- You are bidding on 18 cards pulled from a working PDP11/70 CPU headed for the dump. ? Sadly I had no way of transporting the several hundred pound rack and was only able to remove the cards. -Snip- (Sadly, I can't bring myself to tell him that the?front panel alone?would ?probably have been?worth?3?or 4?times what he'll get for the boards. . . . ) T ? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Jan 13 16:22:09 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:22:09 +0000 Subject: PET power supply questions In-Reply-To: References: <20080112235121.GB2329@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080113222209.GB15309@usap.gov> On Sun, Jan 13, 2008 at 05:55:28PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hi, all, > > > > I've been collecting various classic bits to work on over the winter, > > including a pre-CTRC 32K PET board (2001-N/3032) and a Static PET... > I elieve the 8296D (internal floppy drives) PET used a switching supply. > Do any docs for that machine exist, I wonder... Interesting. I can check zimmers.net when I'm connected to the 'net tonight. > > Obviously, I'm unlikely to find a suitable mains transformer, so I was > > Actually, I do have a 'spare' PET mains transformer somewhere, from > sombody who converterd a PET to the intenral drive model. The problems > would be (a) getting it to you and (b) it's the 240V-input version, and > (c) finding the darn thing. Well... we are getting down to the end of the season here, so things sent from this week onward have a decreasing chance of arriving before the last plane. > You could consider winding the transformer. You can get 'transformer > kits' I believe that come with pre-wound primary windings to suit mains, > and a set of laminations. You wind the secodnaries (the instructions tell > you how many turns/volt to use) with suitable wire and put it together. > Said kits come in differnt total power ratings, either work out the total > power used by the PET, or estimate it from the size of the origjnal > transformer. I have plenty of time to wind a transformer, but I probably don't have time to get a kit like that in. I don't happen to know the exact power draw of a PET board - according to the 2001-N/3032 schematic on zimmers.net, there are a pair of LM340s for +5V, a 7812 for +12V, and a 7905 for -5V, but then off of the transformer, there's a tap for AC for the monitor (which gets immediately regulated down to +12V with a local 7812), and the cassette motor is powered by switched unregulated +9V, tapped off between the bridge rectifier and the LM340s. I don't plan on running a _real_ cassette drive, but I think the latest versions of the C2N232 can use MOTOR-ON as another input line, so I'll need some small amount of power for the motor circuit. To get rolling, I was planning on building either the NAND-4066 or the XOR video circuit that's been floating around for decades, then directly connect a couple of bench supplies past the regulators which will give me the benefit of being able to sample the current draws while simultaneously running the board. I don't have a keyboard here yet, but I did just receive the C=Key, so I can build that up and get a PET-friendly keymatrix downloaded to it. After that, it's just a packaging and storage-device issue. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Jan-2008 at 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -14.6 F (-25.9 C) Windchill -38.4 F (-39.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 33 Barometer 687.6 mb (10343 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 13 16:39:54 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:39:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy! Pocket! Mania! updated Message-ID: <200801132239.m0DMdsO5018848@floodgap.com> I've updated Tandy! Pocket! Mania!, my small page on the Tandy Pocket Computers, with more detailed history and some improved photography. This covers exclusively the Tandy-based Sharp and Casio units, with a little bit of background on the originals to avoid it being a total TRS palimpsest. Comments and corrections always gratefully accepted. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly. ----------------------- From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Jan 13 16:51:25 2008 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:51:25 +1100 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <575131af0801131302g263bf212r3de3e050a7f514d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0801131302g263bf212r3de3e050a7f514d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14/01/2008, at 8:02 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 09/01/2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third- >> party producing >> a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. > > CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? With input/improvements/etc from Tektronix. I always referred to it as CMU/Tek. I don't know the exact history of CMU/Tek but I know we used it to replace UCX in the days when UCX couldn't do DNS and updating host files seemed so "old hat". This implies that there was some version of UCX available quite early on (I'm guessing we did the move to CMU/Tek in about 1985). Does anyone know when the first release of Multinet happened? I guess given that I'm sitting in the middle of probably the largest concentration of OpenVMS people right now I could just ask the appropriate person :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From grant at stockly.com Sun Jan 13 17:51:10 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:51:10 -0900 Subject: MOMS Autograft4 Message-ID: <0JUL002P0WX6XQ20@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I traded about 15-20 hours of linux programming and consulting for two sight unseen computers, a complete Autograft system and an Osborne Executive 1 with manuals and software. Has anyone ever heard of an Autograft system? When I try to turn it on it fails. The hard drive grunts and then it sounds like its releasing a relay or solenoid. I plugged it into a regular desktop power supply and it does the same thing Then the access LED blinks morse code at me. Is there any way I can get it spinning to recover the data? What do you guys recommend? It was frozen last night but its warm now. It was manufactured in 1983. From what I can tell it has: 186 processor 512k RAM 20MB (or possibly 50MB) winchester 512x480 13" RGB monitor for graphics (8 "brilliant" colors the docs say) Wyse terminal for text Autocad 1.4 from Autodesk for CP/M 86 24x36" plotter 11x11 12 button digitizer (a tablet) And there is a receipt for $19,000 in the binder. : ) Grant From grant at stockly.com Sun Jan 13 18:19:04 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:19:04 -0900 Subject: MOMS Autograft4 In-Reply-To: <0JUL002P0WX6XQ20@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JUL002P0WX6XQ20@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <0JUL00HPHY7NZQ10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 02:51 PM 1/13/2008, you wrote: >I traded about 15-20 hours of linux programming and consulting for >two sight unseen computers, a complete Autograft system and an >Osborne Executive 1 with manuals and software. > >Has anyone ever heard of an Autograft system? When I try to turn it >on it fails. The hard drive grunts and then it sounds like its >releasing a relay or solenoid. I plugged it into a regular desktop >power supply and it does the same thing Then the access LED blinks >morse code at me. Is there any way I can get it spinning to recover >the data? What do you guys recommend? It was frozen last night but >its warm now. Update, the hard drive is now spinning...but the 186 CPU card isn't doing anything according to the Jade bus probe...so do I leave the hard drive spinning on its own power supply? I don't want to risk it getting seized up again. I'd like to get the CPU card working because it has some special upgrade on it. I think they referenced it as an 80 column upgrade kit, but that doesn't sound right because it has a serial terminal... I'll leave it powered up for the mean time to see if it comes to life??? Grant From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jan 13 18:19:42 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:19:42 -0500 Subject: Wavemate Bullet / Wave Mate Bullet Message-ID: <000001c85643$2900e060$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:31 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Wavemate Bullet / Wave Mate Bullet > > Hi, > > Does anyone have a WaveMate Bullet machines? Does it work? > > It appears to be a single board CP/M computer with two 5.25" floppy disk > drives. > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] I think I'll clarify my post a bit... :-) I recently bought what I thought was an external dual 5.25" drive on Ebay but it turned out to be a Wave Mate Bullet single board computer. It came with two floppy drives and it *appears* to be in working order. However, I do not have boot disks to verify if it works or not. If anyone has any boot disks for this system, please reply here or contact me off list. The system uses soft sector disks so all I need is disk images we can make with ImageDisk. Probably, you don't even need a working machine since the disk drives are 96tpi floppy drives which can be read on a PC with a 1.2 MB HD floppy disk drive. Thanks in advance for any help! Andrew Lynch PS, here is the manual at bitsavers (Thanks Modem7): http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wavemate/Wave_Mate_Bullet_SBC.pdf From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jan 13 19:36:34 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:36:34 -0800 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <0JUL00NPGSE20UT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JUL00NPGSE20UT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200801131736.34480.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 13 January 2008 14:13, Allison wrote: --snip-- > Save for theres nothing I can find at the site of anything for > that. It appears thats a "proposed" project. I checked > SourceForge and didn't find any code there. Your have to "Browse" the CVS Source. The link below ought to help: http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/ Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 13 21:02:09 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:02:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: vintagecomputermarketplace.com down? Message-ID: Does anyone here know what's up with vintagecomputermarketplace.com? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 13 21:14:16 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:14:16 -0700 Subject: vintagecomputermarketplace.com down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478AD388.50504@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here know what's up with vintagecomputermarketplace.com? Don't worry, the list seems have more stuff for sale. I just wish we did not get *No Shipping* or *Must clear before monday* items. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 13 21:16:42 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:16:42 -0500 Subject: vintagecomputermarketplace.com down? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c8565b$e44ad020$f750f945@evan> Down for an upgrade ... as discussed here a couple of weeks ago ... -----Original Message----- From: David Griffith [mailto:dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: vintagecomputermarketplace.com down? Does anyone here know what's up with vintagecomputermarketplace.com? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 13 21:29:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: vintagecomputermarketplace.com down? In-Reply-To: <478AD388.50504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <478AD388.50504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, woodelf wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know what's up with vintagecomputermarketplace.com? > Don't worry, the list seems have more stuff for sale. I just wish we did not get > *No Shipping* or *Must clear before monday* items. Heh. Well, due to the response, shipping will be an option. I just need to coordinate some things and figure out who gets what. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 13 21:53:32 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:53:32 -0800 Subject: DECnet,SNA vs TCP/IP / was Re: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? References: <4784208A.8589EB19@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0801131302g263bf212r3de3e050a7f514d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <478ADCBB.C847539B@cs.ubc.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > > On 09/01/2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party producing > > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. > > CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? The implementation I was recalling was from the Wollongong Group (Univ. in Australia) (WIN/TCP I believe). I think we would have been using it in 1986, perhaps a little earlier. Curiously, I don't recall hearing about CMU-IP, interesting that there was more than one implementation. Looking at some code from way back when I see I wrote an interface to a second TCP/IP implementation towards the end of the 80's but I don't remember whether it was for another third-party implementation or for DEC's TCP/IP (the IO system calls looks more DEC-style). From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 13 22:07:58 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:07:58 -0800 Subject: The Wollongong Group Message-ID: <478AE01E.7060505@bitsavers.org> >> > (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party producing >> > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. >> >> CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? > > The implementation I was recalling was from the Wollongong Group (Univ. in > Australia) (WIN/TCP I believe). TWG was a Silicon Valley company. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 22:30:18 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:30:18 -0500 Subject: Thanks Lawrence (whoever you are :) In-Reply-To: <200801132044.PAA16288@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <002001c8553f$61727210$6400a8c0@BILLING> <200801132044.PAA16288@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <478AE55A.9040203@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> 2) There are actually three people doing the moderation of posts from >> cctalk to cctech; myself and two other people. > > You three each deserve a huge kudos for taking on such a thankless > task at all, and another for sticking with it. Seconded. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 13 22:37:25 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:37:25 -0500 Subject: MOMS Autograft4 In-Reply-To: <0JUL002P0WX6XQ20@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JUL002P0WX6XQ20@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <200801132337.25900.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 January 2008 18:51, Grant Stockly wrote: > I traded about 15-20 hours of linux programming and consulting for > two sight unseen computers, a complete Autograft system and an > Osborne Executive 1 with manuals and software. Was there ever an Osborne Executive other than a "1"? Not to confuse it with the Osborne-1, which preceded it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Tim at Rikers.org Sun Jan 13 22:39:15 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:39:15 -0700 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <478AE773.7010002@Rikers.org> I'm casually interested. I have a sister in down in Vancouver, WA. I don't suppose you head down there at all? Now if you had an HP-7970 I'd be all over that. :) I'm not sure if an HP-1000 series can handle an HPIB interface drive instead of whatever the interface is on a 7970. Anyone care to comment on that? Also there have been a few HPIB floppy drives on eBay. I'm wondering how much work it would be to get them attached to an HP-1000 series machine. g-wright at att.net wrote: > Just grabbed 3 HP 7980 9 track tape drives on there way > to the scraper. I have too many already.(20+) free for pickup > in Kent wa. 2 are SCSI, 1 is HPIB. ((1) is a 7980S) > Front loading, all look to be in good condition > > No Shipping > > - Jerry > Jerry Wright -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 13 22:53:16 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:53:16 -0600 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. References: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <478AE773.7010002@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <008601c85669$61059610$6600a8c0@JWEST> Tim wrote... > Now if you had an HP-7970 I'd be all over that. :) I have a 7970A that is only partially functional. Looking for a good home. > I'm not sure if an HP-1000 series can handle an HPIB interface drive > instead of whatever the interface is on a 7970. Sure, HP-IB tape drives, no problem. > Also there have been a few HPIB floppy drives on eBay. I'm wondering how > much work it would be to get them attached to an HP-1000 series machine. Connect a cable between the HP-IB interface PCA and the floppy drive. Write a little code :D Jay From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 13 23:30:30 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:30:30 -0800 Subject: The Wollongong Group References: <478AE01E.7060505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <478AF376.823E3103@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > >> > (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party producing > >> > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. > >> > >> CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? > > > > The implementation I was recalling was from the Wollongong Group (Univ. in > > Australia) (WIN/TCP I believe). > > TWG was a Silicon Valley company. Well that's funny, I don't where my mis-perception as to the origins originated but I think I've had it since way back when. (Somebody else ordered the software package - I just programmed with it). From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 23:34:18 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:34:18 -0500 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <008601c85669$61059610$6600a8c0@JWEST> References: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <478AE773.7010002@Rikers.org> <008601c85669$61059610$6600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <478AF45A.9070502@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Tim wrote... >> Now if you had an HP-7970 I'd be all over that. :) > I have a 7970A that is only partially functional. Looking for a good home. What's wrong with it? Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 14 00:34:34 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:34:34 -0500 Subject: PET power supply questions Message-ID: <01C8564D.A126BC40@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:51:21 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: PET power supply questions Hi, all, I've been collecting various classic bits to work on over the winter, including a pre-CTRC 32K PET board (2001-N/3032) and a Static PET board. I don't have any cases or accessories, but I do have a C2N232, a single bare keyboard, and a C=Key converter enroute. For video, I was planning on trying that ancient XOR circuit to make composite video from sync and video, and feed that to an old Panasonic mono CRT I saved from scrap. What I'm lacking at this point is a power supply. Obviously, I'm unlikely to find a suitable mains transformer, so I was going to cobble up some form of switcher that puts out enough of the right voltages to make this all work. Poring over the schematics for the 2001-N board on zimmers.net (e.g. 320349-9.gif), I'm guessing that the onboard regulator circuit is pumping out +5VDC at over 5A, +12VDC at a couple of amps, and a miniscule amount of -5VDC. I'm not running a real tape drive, so I'm not as worried about the +9VDC unreg. Does anyone have any reasonable estimates or real-world measurements for the current draw on the various supply lines? Has anyone out there ever gotten a PET to run from externally regulated DC? Thanks, -ethan ------------Reply: I haven't done it but, since I've also got a board and lower case w/kbd & cassette but no monitor or PS xfmr, it's also on my to-do-someday list to put it together with a small switching supply and composite monitor. I don't have a DRAM 2001N, and it's a little awkward to check the current on my 8032, but an SRAM 2001-8 identical to the one I sent you (but with chips;-) draws 2.8A on the unregulated 8.5V which feeds 4 LM305s, so the actual 5V draw would probably be slightly less. I'd think that any common +5/+12/-5 supply with >5A on the 5V would do just fine for both your boards, and if you don't need the cassette a single 5V supply would do the SRAM version. mike From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Jan 14 00:51:46 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:51:46 +0000 Subject: PET power supply questions In-Reply-To: <01C8564D.A126BC40@MSE_D03> References: <01C8564D.A126BC40@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20080114065146.GA18929@usap.gov> On Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 01:34:34AM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > -----------Original Message: > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:51:21 +0000 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: PET power supply questions > > Hi, all, > > I've been collecting various classic bits to work on over the winter, > including a pre-CTRC 32K PET board (2001-N/3032) and a Static PET... > > ------------Reply: > I haven't done it but, since I've also got a board and lower case w/kbd & cassette > but no monitor or PS xfmr, it's also on my to-do-someday list to put it together > with a small switching supply and composite monitor. Sounds similar. I've contemplated trying to bang out a lower chassis in the sheet metal shop this winter, so I might be asking for dimensions in a few months - we have a spot welder, a nice foot-powered shear, a large brake... perfect for making a tray. > I don't have a DRAM 2001N, and it's a little awkward to check the current on > my 8032, but an SRAM 2001-8 identical to the one I sent you (but with chips;-) > draws 2.8A on the unregulated 8.5V which feeds 4 LM305s, so the actual 5V > draw would probably be slightly less. I'd think that any common +5/+12/-5 > supply with >5A on the 5V would do just fine for both your boards, and if > you don't need the cassette a single 5V supply would do the SRAM version. Thanks, Mike. I happen to have a nice bench supply here that should be able to handle the Dynamic board (well... either board, really). As for the Static board you sent me, I just received my ROM/RAM boards from Nicholas Welte, so with one CMOS SRAM and one FLASH EEPROM, the current draw on that one should be a bit lower. I still have to think about how to provide "motor" voltage for the C2N232. Perhaps I have a 7808 or 7809 in my junk box here that I can power from the +12V line. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 14-Jan-2008 at 06:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -16.4 F (-26.9 C) Windchill -38.8 F (-39.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.1 kts Grid 16 Barometer 687.7 mb (10339 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 13 07:38:26 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:38:26 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? Message-ID: <0JUL008NS4JXAJY0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Backing up VAX/VMS? > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:26:39 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup >> > of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to >> > another drive. > >> The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I wouldn't bother with doing a >> file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be "quite >> small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box >> and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg. >> 4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the >> file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an >> identical drive. > >I've already done that - I put the drive from the VLC as an external >drive on the 3100 running NETBSD and dd'd it into an image file - but >my goal is to be able to survive a drive failure, and possibly also >move it to a larger drive. The original drive in question is an RZ23, >which is a 100M DEC labled Conner drive - I have three other similar >drives, two labled RZ23 and one Conner that are "really close" but >not exactly the same - apparently there were slightly different >variations and versions. > >> You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally to be able to >> restore to a different medium, though. > >Exactly. If I understand it correctly, an image backup should restore >to any drive, and is the best way to insure that I can rebuild the >system in the future. For VMS an image backup can build the disk again assuming it's as least as large as the source drive. I keep a RZ24 and a RD54 with VMS5.4 on it as a "installer". All I need to do is boot stabckup [standalone backup] and do an image copy of the drive to the target and now the target is a usable/bootable drive. Learned that trick at DEC as it was faster to carry a MFM or SCSI drive around to systems with VMS preinstalled but not personalized and run standalone backup. Time savings ran from hours down to 20 minutes. Beats the TK50 for time savings. >> > I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of >> > a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building >> > a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, >> > and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be >> > interested in this? >> >> That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement. >> Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA >> and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box >> (with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9 >> world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.) > >I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to find, but PC/PS2 >devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others >with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest, >(or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further. Around here within 10 miles of the greater Maynard area or teh home of DEC they are pretty common. The keyboard would be easy to just take a PC based keyboard with 8051 and reprogram it and change the connector. The mouse is less common but usually easy to track down as they only work on DEC systems. What can be difficult is the various cables and adaptors to get from the box to whatever. Also PC DB/DP RS232 pinouts and conventions are NOT the same as DEC. If your playing with DEC look for a VT1200, thats and IP/LAT based (etherpipe Xterm) graphic terminal that also work with DECwindows. I tend to use that rather than fuss with multiple individual VAX systems. Since all my VAXen are on a Ethernet backbone that terminal allows for connection to any of them as charater mode or DECwindows. Anotehr beastie to look for is microVAX2000, sometimes thought to be the most useless vax for speed and space. However it can format any MFM drive to DEC RQDX3 format (PC cannot) and also floppies either RX50 or RX33. With the right software it can bootload a VAXterm as an ethernet windows terminal. Oh and with an RD54 it can run VMS So long as it has at least 6mb and keep VMS below V5.5 for space on disk reasons. If it has more ram but only a tiny disk then MOP load (net boot) VMS from a host and use the local disk as either private storage or swap/page (or both). It's small, so preserve one. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 13 13:20:39 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:20:39 -0500 Subject: Backing up VMS Message-ID: <0JUL00KLWKGSLGF0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Backing up VMS > From: Scott Quinn > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:34:51 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >On Jan 13, 2008, at 1:05 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> >>>> My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup >>>> of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to >>>> another drive. >> >>> The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I wouldn't bother with >>> doing a >>> file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be >>> "quite >>> small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box >>> and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg. >>> 4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the >>> file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an >>> identical drive. >> >> I've already done that - I put the drive from the VLC as an external >> drive on the 3100 running NETBSD and dd'd it into an image file - but >> my goal is to be able to survive a drive failure, and possibly also >> move it to a larger drive. The original drive in question is an RZ23, >> which is a 100M DEC labled Conner drive - I have three other similar >> drives, two labled RZ23 and one Conner that are "really close" but >> not exactly the same - apparently there were slightly different >> variations and versions. >> >>> You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally to be able to >>> restore to a different medium, though. >> >> Exactly. If I understand it correctly, an image backup should restore >> to any drive, and is the best way to insure that I can rebuild the >> system in the future. > >Why not write out a BACKUP tape with standalone BACKUP at the front >so you can do a restore install? Only read about it being done on >TKxx/TZxx drives, but it would be worth looking into, as it is the >"official" DEC way to build a restorable backup (and is how they >shipped the VMS tape distros) (haven't read too much about it because >I don't have any CompacTape media right now). You can do that to a SCSI drive or any media large enough and recongnized by the system. That means TKxx, TZxx, RDxx (RD54 at 150mb is large enough for preV6 VMS), Any of the RZ drives large enough (I use RZ55s and 56s). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 13 16:13:21 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:13:21 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) Message-ID: <0JUL00NPGSE20UT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) > From: Jim Brain > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:22:49 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Bob Armstrong wrote: >> >>> I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of >>> a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building >>> a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, >>> and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be >>> interested in this? >>> >> >> I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or >> mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM >> switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it >> can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice. >> >> I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious >> I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware. >> >Would this work help in any way: > >http://www.kbdbabel.org/ > >"PS2 Keyboard ---> DEC VT320 ..." Save for theres nothing I can find at the site of anything for that. It appears thats a "proposed" project. I checked SourceForge and didn't find any code there. Briefly: PS2 keyboard do a scan code and send it serially with a sperate clock line. They also use the same serial path to recieve data. DEC keyboards also use a serial path save for it's RS423 and at 4800 baud RS423. The format of the data is different (not scancode!). Here is a site that has the basic LK201 data: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/lk201.html#electrical To go from PS2 to DEC one must both reconcile the different codings and how data is transmitted. I'd say PS2 to DEC is easiest direction as the PS2 scan codes are known and can be translated to anything. I believe the DEC keyboard uses a simpler code that is one byte for keydown and another for keyup. Allison > >Jim From alanp at snowmoose.com Mon Jan 14 01:42:54 2008 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:42:54 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in a Coleco Adam? In-Reply-To: <200801140729.m0E7TBOE029945@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801140729.m0E7TBOE029945@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <478B127E.5090205@snowmoose.com> A friend of mine has a Coleco Adam (and bits to go with the system) that he wants to get rid. I do not yet have the complete list of what he has. Anyone here interested in it? It is located in Shelton, WA. It sounded like it was free, but I need to confirm that. alan From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 14 02:20:14 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:20:14 -0600 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <0JUL00NPGSE20UT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JUL00NPGSE20UT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <478B1B3E.9040508@jbrain.com> Allison wrote: > Save for theres nothing I can find at the site of anything for that. > It appears thats a "proposed" project. I checked SourceForge and > didn't find any code there. > As someone else noted, it's buried in CVS. But, it looks like it is done: http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/kbdbabel_lk_ps2_8051.asm?revision=1.4&view=markup from: http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ If this doesn't fit the bill, I am sure some of us can whip up something that works. Jim From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Mon Jan 14 02:22:42 2008 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:22:42 -0000 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E7E@exch-be09.exchange.local> Building on previous posts: Standalone backup can be installed on the system drive, it gets installed as [.SYSE] and is then started by: >>> B /R5=E0000000 DKA300 Any disks it needs to use must be ready before it goes looking for them during initialisation. The one off creation of the standalone backup kit (i.e. [.SYSE]) goes something like: $set def sys$update $@stabackit [Ref VMS System Manager's Manual] Standalone backup has some limitations, e.g. at ~V5.5 it only supports a cluster size of 1; i.e. it only supports disks up to 1 Gby. This means that you can't use it with RZ27/28/29 StorageWorks (1/2/4/8/.. Gby) disks. On a machine with a SCSI bus and with spare scsi disks to hand my preference would be to write the backup to another blank scsi disk as a save set, and then to archive the backup on modern hardware. The save set condenses the disk to it's minimal file size, and on restore you get a "fresh" copy with contiguous files. The basic incantation is: $init DKA200 volnam /nohigh $backup/image/verify DKA300: DKA200:filename.sav/save It's best practice to fix up any lint on the disk prior to backing up / archiving it, i.e. to resolve any block allocation / file index inconcistencies: $analyse/disk DKA300: -- generates a list of issues $analyse/disk/repair DKA300: -- lists and fixes any issues $analyse/disk/read DKA300: -- reads all the blocks and tells you which ones have irrecoverable parity errors With three spindles on a system you can produce a compact copy of a disk image, with the file index at the beginning rather than the centre of the disk. One spindle runs the system and backup, another disk (which could also be the system disk) has a saveset copy of the imaged disk on it, the final disk will be initialised and have the saveset written to it. $initialise dkb000 /index=beginning/nohighwater $mou/foreign dkb000: $backup/image/verify/noinitialise dka200:filename.sav/save dkb000: The reason for doing this used to be to produce the smallest possible "necessary" disk image for burning on a CD or whatever. Nowadays, I would probably copy the entire disk - GigaBytes are cheap, ensuring you have copied to the HWM can be expensive. Obviously, a live disk volume should have the file index in its default location at the centre of the disk. IIRC there are/were some (free) SalesWare utilities which permit Files-11 disks to be mounted on XP and read. This would provide a much neater (and safer) way of eliciting the .sav (save set) file for archival on a PC than croping an image at it's high water mark. However, dd of the entire disk containing the savesets may be even better. Regards Martin From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Mon Jan 14 03:25:10 2008 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:25:10 -0000 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> <003a01c8561d$00c722b0$02556810$@com> Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E92@exch-be09.exchange.local> The Microchip USB PICs can implement a HID class driver compatible (USB) device and inject key codes into windows. Since the reports are built in the PIC, any (USB Kbd HID) legal codes can be generated. The LK-201 to USB keycode mapping can be done to taste in the PIC. This would *definitely* work, to venture an opinion the PS2 interface should work but would be "harder". Martin Bob Armstrong wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: >Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator? >I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of >a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building >a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, >and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be >interested in this? I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice. I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware. Bob Armstrong From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 14 04:06:39 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:06:39 -0600 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E92@exch-be09.exchange.local> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> <003a01c8561d$00c722b0$02556810$@com> <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E92@exch-be09.exchange.local> Message-ID: <478B342F.3020602@jbrain.com> Martin Bishop wrote: > The Microchip USB PICs can implement a HID class driver compatible (USB) > device and inject key codes into windows. Since the reports are built > in the PIC, any (USB Kbd HID) legal codes can be generated. The LK-201 > to USB keycode mapping can be done to taste in the PIC. > AVRs can do the same, but I think the OP was wanting IBM KB to DEC, not DEC KB to IBM. In the former, the PIC needs to implement USB host (which I am sure there are variants, as I know some of the AVRs can be a DEVICE or a HOST). > This would *definitely* work, to venture an opinion the PS2 interface > should work but would be "harder". > Given the ease of the AT/PS/2 protocol and my experience with USB HID, I would disagree. The mechanical and electrical for USB requires more thought, and you need to get specific USB-capable uC variants (or use libUSB of some variant, but that's even more work). The PS/2 protocol to RS423 is something any PIC or AVR can do, even though with as few as 8 pins (serial and a few IO pins, everything is as 5 volts, and if you don't care about sending codes back to the KB, you can simply watch the clock signals from the KB to get your scan codes). Still, I think the work has already been done by "babel" project. Jim From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Mon Jan 14 04:09:52 2008 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:09:52 -0000 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) References: <0JUL00NPGSE20UT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000EB4@exch-be09.exchange.local> >Here is a site that has the basic LK201 data: >http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/lk201.html#electrical >Allison One of the most comprehensive LK-201 (and DEC mouse) references I am aware of is the VCB02 handbook; specifically Appendices B (LK201) and C (mouse). http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/VCB02_PrelimHwRef.pdf N.B ~23 Mby pdf - consider downloading from a mirror Martin From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 14 05:03:08 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:03:08 -0500 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals Message-ID: <01C85676.F028E240@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:07:00 +0000 From: g-wright at att.net Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals I seem to have my share of Terminals that have bad keyboard parts. 3 that I'm working now have the same type of Keyboard. These are Hazeltine 1500 and ADM 3As. These have an molded base with fingers that stick up and a second square piece that slide into the base and makes and breaks the finger contact. It also has a square opening in the top for the key cap. So when someone drops a heavy object on the the key board this intermediate piece cracks in the corners and binds in the base. What I would like to find is a doner type of system that does not have any value so I can rob the middle piece.. (typewiter) ??? Tandy (Archer) sold a Alpha-Numrtic keyboard that said it was made for the TI 99/4 computer. It used the same switch type keyboard. - Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net --------Reply: I've got a few boxes full of keyboards & parts; any chance of a picture off-list? mike From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 14 07:11:40 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:11:40 -0500 Subject: Backing up VMS In-Reply-To: References: <5C240C2D-12F1-4A56-A77D-A4251D984F71@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > >Why not write out a BACKUP tape with standalone BACKUP at the front > >so you can do a restore install? Only read about it being done on > >TKxx/TZxx drives, but it would be worth looking into, as it is the > >"official" DEC way to build a restorable backup (and is how they > >shipped the VMS tape distros) (haven't read too much about it > >because I don't have any CompacTape media right now). > I personally prefer a CD with Standalone Backup, that way you don't > have to worry about the tape going bad. But then I prefer CD's on my > PDP-11's where possible, so I don't have normal setups. :^) I know > on VAXen you can build Standalone Backup on a HD, I believe this > feature was dropped from Alpha after 6.1. What is needed to write a CD from a VAX? - presumably a writer that can create 512 byte sectors? (I don't think any of my SCSI writers can)... Made some progress... I discovered that both of my 8mm drives have developed mechanical problems - The "press on" gears in the tape loading mechanics appear to be problematifc - On one drive, a gear has split (not much chance for repair), on the other the gear on the motor has come loose - This I should be able to repair if I can get to it. Fortunately the 4mm drive seems to be OK - I wrote a backup tape which appears to have worked, although I have not tried to restore it yet. I also wrote stand-alone backup to a tape, which took a LONG time ... this went through the motions and looked like it worked, however when I try to boot it I get a crash dump. The good news is that BACKUP/IMAGE from one SCSI drive to another worked fine - I was able to clone the system to a larger (1G) drive which is now installed and working. I'll keep the original RZ23L as a backup, and probably make at least one more. The SCSI ZIP drive did not work at all on the VAX - I had hoped that it would present as a normal SCSI drive (it works under Linux fine), but although the VAX could see and identify it, it could not access it (gave errors about not being able to allocate blocks) - perhaps this is due to differences in the SCSI command set implementation? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 14 07:59:59 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:59:59 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <003a01c8561d$00c722b0$02556810$@com> References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: > >I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of > >a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building > >a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse, > >and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be > >interested in this? > > I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or > mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM > switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it > can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice. Thats an excellent reason for having it! > I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious > I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware. I don't recall saying that I thought it would be easy, however I do think that it could be done. The hardware shouldn't be very complicated at all - I've been thinking about building up an 8031 (because I have lots, and development tools etc.). The interfaces which have to be dealt with are: - Simultanious PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse inputs In the code I did before to read the PS/2 keyboard, I simply polled the clock line which might get problematic when dealing with two interfaces as well as a software UART (see below), however the 8051 has two external interrupt inputs, which could be used to monitor the clock lines - a small state machine running off each interrupt should be able to handle the physical interface to the keyboard/mouse - Two UARTS The VAX requires a serial port for both the keyboard and the mouse. Fortunately the speed is only 4800, and the mouse if defined to be half-duplex, so it should not to too difficult to implement the mouse serial port from an internal timer interrupt and corresponding state machine. This would leave the main 8051 serial port available or the emulated keyboard (which is bidirectional). - LEDs and beeper Although the PC keyboard does have three LEDs, we might want to use these to indicate local states. We would need at least one more LED on the interface box, and I would probably put on all 4 (at least until we determine which PC keyboard LEDs will be available) I'd also add a speaker output for the keyclick and beeper. An 8031 has 14 spare I/O lines including the serial port (and the two which can be configured as interrupts). Our requirements are: 2 for PS/2 clock (INT0 and INT1) 2 for PS/2 data 2 for keyboard serial (8051 serial port) 2 for mouse serial 4 for LEDs 1 for speaker So we should just fit with one to spare. >From a firmware point of view, the mouse looks pretty straightforward, mostly a protocol translation with only a few simple commands to handle. The keyboard looks considerably more complex, with modes and key regions that they can be applied to, however as a friend of mine says, thats "just typing" ... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 14 09:28:53 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:28:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11/24 available in Georgia Message-ID: <16958.192.87.171.10.1200324533.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I got this email from Cole Petersburg (cpetersbur3 at gatech.edu). He has an 11/24 availabe, please contact him directly if interested. Information I got : +++++++ PDP-11/24, cosmetic damage to knob, 3U height, 19" rack RX02 dual 8" floppy drive "Computer interface unit" HP monitor Keyboard All cables, former positions are written down Little or no documentation Floppy disks, few or no useful ones Solid state relay - possibly belonging to the computer interface unit Provenance: It came from a PHI-600 Scanning Auger system, purchased around 1986. It ran RT-11, captured images, and printed them to a Tektronix printer. The printer was left with the previous owner. The PDP will be replaced with a PCI card from RBD Instruments. Current owner: I'll need to discuss transfer of ownership with my advisor at Georgia Institute of Technology. ++++++ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 14 06:47:36 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:47:36 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) Message-ID: <0JUM00LSWWV43GQE@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) > From: Jim Brain > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:20:14 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > >Allison wrote: >> Save for theres nothing I can find at the site of anything for that. >> It appears thats a "proposed" project. I checked SourceForge and >> didn't find any code there. >> >As someone else noted, it's buried in CVS. But, it looks like it is done: > >http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/kbdbabel_lk_ps2_8051.asm?revision=1.4&view=markup > >from: >http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ > >If this doesn't fit the bill, I am sure some of us can whip up something >that works. Found it, now what tool is used to display the .SCH file in useable form. The code looks good and a 8051 is plenty enough to do the task as the DEC keyboards used 8051. Allison From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jan 14 10:35:09 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:35:09 -0500 Subject: The Wollongong Group In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:07:58 PST." <478AE01E.7060505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200801141635.m0EGZ9AF030611@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >> > (As I've said before on the list) there was at least one third-party pro >ducing > >> > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around to it. > >> > >> CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? > > > > The implementation I was recalling was from the Wollongong Group (Univ. in > > Australia) (WIN/TCP I believe). > >TWG was a Silicon Valley company. don't forget TGV. (a name I'll always love, plus the 'two guys' are both fun :-) -brad From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 10:38:28 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:38:28 +0000 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <575131af0801140838m2a520b87w5e53c5a15e0111c4@mail.gmail.com> On 07/01/2008, madodel wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 05/01/2008, madodel wrote: > >> jd wrote: > >>> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>>> jd wrote: > >>>>> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>>>>> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after > >>>>>> it was a dead OS elsewhere - [snipsnip] ) > >>>>>> > >>>>> It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned > >>>>> getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, > >>>>> somehow. > >>>> Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out > >>>> of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that > >>>> anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were > >>>> directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. > >>> Considering how naive about physical and electronic security just > >>> about everyone was then, I would not be at all surprised. This was at > >>> about the time OS/2 first came out and found it's way into industrial > >>> equipment, I think. The KISS mentality was still in full effect and > >>> hardware design for ATM's still consisted of collecting off-the-shelf > >>> components and tossing them together. An ATM would have just one > >>> console and that would be the front monitor and keypad, often by > >>> default, and the rear monitor and keypad or keyboard, if so equipped, > >>> that would require using a hardware or software switch, like those old > >>> Inmac KVM-without-the-M switch boxes. Of course, for convenience, it > >>> was possible to do stuff from the front keypad, such as use a > >>> maintenance menu. Eventually, when ATM design evolved, such convenient > >>> features faded into oblivion. > >> I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have been > >> a windoze based ATM. And many ATMs still run OS/2. It is only being > >> replaced by windoze on new models since IBM refused to support the hardware > >> any more. > > > > You are very confident for someone asserting that another person has > > not seen something that they say they have. How can you know? > > > > I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. So you came in after me, then. :?) > I'm fairly well acquainted with > its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you > saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you > think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be > able to prove that it did happen. How, exactly? You want a photograph? Sorry, but even if I had one, such things are readily photoshopped now. If you want signed witness statements, well, again, expect to be disappointed. I know OS/2. It's one of a tiny handful of programs for the PC I've ever actually bought with my own money; indeed I suspect I've spent more on OS/2 than on all other PC software put together. I know an OS/2 command prompt when I see one. I also know that OS/2 was once very widely used in cash machines; this is well-known and an objective fact, and indeed cash machines were one of the last strongholds of OS/2. So what is it that you have difficulty believing? That OS/2 crashes? Hint: run up a Warp box, put Fractint on it, and try some of the clever hacked VGA screen modes. Watch the TRAP errors abound. That an ATM's software would be so badly written that it would fail to a command prompt? If that is the case, you must have led a very sheltered life. That someone has seen something you personally have not? Again, this is a very widespread occurrence. > If this were a common occurrence then we would be able to find some > documentation of it other then just someone's antidotal remembrance I think you perhaps mean "anecdotal", as in an anecdotal account. > that it > might have happened and it might have been OS/2. There is ample evidence > of crashed windoze ATMs on the net. Like I said I have never seen that. You don't get out much, then! Google for it. Try an image search for "atm crash". Here's a gallery, including a crashed OS/2 airport terminal: http://julian.coccia.com/gallery/wincrashes > But I've never seen a crashed windoze ATM either. I have seen broken ATM's > but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM > code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself > should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever > been attainable. So in summary, all you're saying is that you've never seen it and you find it surprising that there are programmers who are so incompetent? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jan 14 10:43:47 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:43:47 -0600 Subject: SEL advert (question) In-Reply-To: <478A2897.3090901@comcast.net> References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> <478980AD.8060409@comcast.net> <011101c85593$abee8c30$23406b43@66067007> <478A2897.3090901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <478B9143.6080604@ubanproductions.com> I worked for the Gould Computer Systems Division in Urbana IL from '86 to '88, fresh out of college, helping first with the BSD based Un*x operating system kernel for the Concept/Powernode line of processors and then a bit on the NP1 processor before I left to work for BBN Advanced Computers Inc. in Cambridge MA. Gould CSD had the certified secure Un*x as well as the real time extensions. The Concept/Powernode line of processors sold primarily into the real time defense and factory automation markets running their proprietary real time operating system, which I cannot recall the name of after all these years. The machines were very fast and cost effective for the time vs. other minis which ran Un*x. They were ECL based, so very power hungry and utilized an IBM like memory/address architecture. Shortly after I left there, they sold off the company. I have a t-shirt somewhere with the Gould logo and the words "Gould lost $300M and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". Dan Roganti wrote: > > That's really nice to hear about this. I'll have to tell my old friends > about this. Whereabouts is this located ? > > There's still a complete facility in operation that's 4 acres large at > Vandeberg AFB with 22 machines using 32/55 and 32/75 series along with 2 > CDC Cyber 840 machines. This is still reliable after 30yrs and used for > missile launch control in the TIPS system. One of my friends runs a > maintenance company that provides support to this operation. > > I just heard from Al Kossow that there's also a 810 machine at the > Houston Computer museum. > > > Keys wrote: >> >> We have complete SEL 810 with doc's, programs on paper tape, test >> equipment, spare parts and other items. It was turned off for the last >> time in July of 2006. We hope to set it all and have it running later >> this year. They had another complete system but we had to pass on it. >> John >> >> > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 11:05:51 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:05:51 +0000 Subject: Free PowerMac in SE England Message-ID: <575131af0801140905r50b2ce7ei456c315529861cf9@mail.gmail.com> Would anyone like a free PowerPC Macintosh? An acquaintance of mine has one he wants to get rid of. It's a PowerMac 7200/90. Spec unknown, I'm afraid, but it'll be running MacOS 8 or 9 or so. I believe these machines can be coaxed into running OS X up to 10.4 with XPostFacto, although you'll need to stick to at most 10.1 or 10.2 unless you put a G3 upgrade in it. Either way it will need more RAM and hard disk space to run OS X. It's just outside Brighton. The owner is James Fryer, jim at cix dot co dot uk. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 11:15:12 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:15:12 -0500 Subject: Tandy! Pocket! Mania! updated In-Reply-To: <200801132239.m0DMdsO5018848@floodgap.com> References: <200801132239.m0DMdsO5018848@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2008, at 5:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I've updated Tandy! Pocket! Mania!, my small page on the Tandy Pocket > Computers, with more detailed history and some improved > photography. This > covers exclusively the Tandy-based Sharp and Casio units, with a > little > bit of background on the originals to avoid it being a total TRS > palimpsest. > Comments and corrections always gratefully accepted. > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/ Nice! I had a PC-1 when I was in high school. I think I still have it somewhere. It's a really neat design, and highly functional for its size and price! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 14 11:25:06 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:25:06 -0600 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <0JUM00LSWWV43GQE@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JUM00LSWWV43GQE@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <478B9AF2.1060100@jbrain.com> Allison wrote: > Found it, now what tool is used to display the .SCH file in useable form. > The code looks good and a 8051 is plenty enough to do the task as the DEC > keyboards used 8051. > EAGLE CAD (www.cadsoftusa.com). Free for personal use. Good tool, I use it. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 14 11:34:40 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:34:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Wollongong Group In-Reply-To: <200801141635.m0EGZ9AF030611@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200801141635.m0EGZ9AF030611@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200801141738.MAA28977@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > don't forget TGV. > (a name I'll always love, plus the 'two guys' are both fun :-) Ah yes. A prerelease[%] of Eunice was my first exposure to Unix, and it never made much sense to me...until I encountered the real thing, and realized that so many of the things which made no sense were actually impedance mismatches between Unix and VMS, and how Eunice had to twist and bend to make them fit. [%] We got our hands on a prerelease because Kashtan did grad school work at the lab I was at was with at the time. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From will_kranz at softhome.net Mon Jan 14 10:40:49 2008 From: will_kranz at softhome.net (will) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:40:49 -0500 Subject: Old "Potter Instrument Co" tape drive available Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20080114113934.00a1acd0@mail.softhome.net> I am looking for a home for a monster tape drive: http://www.fpns.net/willy/forsale/TAPEDRV.HTM Hope this isn't too off topic. Is it worth perserving? I don't have the interest, nor space. Anyone interested, esp a club should get in touch, its heading towards the dumpster. Will From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 14 12:40:27 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:40:27 -0000 Subject: Backing up VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01c856dc$efcb4890$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Fortunately the 4mm drive seems to be OK - I wrote a backup tape Have you managed to restore one yet :-) My experience of DAT is that after a (short) while they start to chew tapes. Never had that with DLT: the drive may break but the tape (for me at least) remains intact. Mind you, I have working RD53s and TK50s so there may be something in the water here :-) >The good news is that BACKUP/IMAGE from one SCSI drive to > another worked fine That's by design rather than luck ... BACKUP/IMAGE is supposed to do that. If you BACKUP/IMAGE to a saveset instead, then you'll have a single file that you can FTP somewhere else for archiving. Given that 18GB SCSI disks are cheap (== free, usually) and readily available, I would hook one of those up, initialise it, create a saveset on that and then FTP over to a nearby PC for archiving to CD or DVD as appropriate. I've not tried 9GB or 18GB disks in a VLC, but I have three 18GB IBM SCA80 disks in my VS 4000-90. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1223 - Release Date: 13/01/2008 20:23 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 14:13:14 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:13:14 -0700 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? Message-ID: Does anyone have any links for VT01 storage scope display system manuals? I want to look at the details on this peripheral. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Jan 14 14:17:43 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0600 Subject: IBM PS/1 2121 system info/monitor In-Reply-To: <478B9AF2.1060100@jbrain.com> References: <0JUM00LSWWV43GQE@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <478B9AF2.1060100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <478BC367.1030009@tdh.com> I have a IBM PS/1 2121 system, but was unfortunately not able to get the monitor for it. However, the monitor seems to be quite important as the power connects into that. So far I've found the model number is supposed to be: 93F0501. Anyone have one of these laying around or can offer any information on how I can use the system without the monitor (I read something about 36V on the pins)? Thanks. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 14 14:30:45 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:30:45 -0500 Subject: Old "Potter Instrument Co" tape drive available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20080114113934.00a1acd0@mail.softhome.net> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20080114113934.00a1acd0@mail.softhome.net> Message-ID: <20B8A291-2FA2-41FD-A411-BC43DD78D6F6@neurotica.com> On Jan 14, 2008, at 11:40 AM, will wrote: > I am looking for a home for a monster tape drive: > http://www.fpns.net/willy/forsale/TAPEDRV.HTM > Hope this isn't too off topic. Is it worth perserving? > I don't have the interest, nor space. Anyone interested, esp > a club should get in touch, its heading towards the dumpster. I'd love to give that drive a home. Where is it located? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 14 14:44:22 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:44:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy! Pocket! Mania! updated In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Jan 14, 8 12:15:12 pm" Message-ID: <200801142044.m0EKiM6h019962@floodgap.com> > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/ > > Nice! I had a PC-1 when I was in high school. I think I still > have it somewhere. It's a really neat design, and highly functional > for its size and price! You reminded me that I need to add something about the PC-1's LCD -- it has a tendency to blacken with age. I think some of the units have bad seals and the crystals gradually dry out. A few of my units do this really badly, and I've seen ones that were almost black. I'll punch that in tonight. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them? -- Justice Gustine -------- From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jan 14 14:47:20 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:47:20 +0100 Subject: WD1001 MFM controller wanted Message-ID: <478BCA58.8060207@bluewin.ch> Looking for an Western Digital WD1001 MFM controller card , preferably working. It is an 8X305 based, very early controller card . I do not know how rare they were, but they are bound to be rare now. Jos Dreesen From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jan 14 14:47:40 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:47:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <135162.7939.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Does anyone have any links for VT01 storage scope display system > manuals? I want to look at the details on this peripheral. I believe that the scope itself is a Tektronix 611. I have a service manual and a couple of the scopes. --Bill From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 14 14:47:57 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:47:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free PowerMac in SE England In-Reply-To: <575131af0801140905r50b2ce7ei456c315529861cf9@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Jan 14, 8 05:05:51 pm" Message-ID: <200801142047.m0EKlwG5011136@floodgap.com> > Would anyone like a free PowerPC Macintosh? An acquaintance of mine > has one he wants to get rid of. It's a PowerMac 7200/90. Spec unknown, > I'm afraid, but it'll be running MacOS 8 or 9 or so. I believe these > machines can be coaxed into running OS X up to 10.4 with XPostFacto, > although you'll need to stick to at most 10.1 or 10.2 unless you put a > G3 upgrade in it. Either way it will need more RAM and hard disk space > to run OS X. This is slight OT but the G3 upgrades for the 7200 are not compatible with OS X. There is no processor slot in those models, so the G3 upgrade goes in a PCI slot and requires an Extension that OS X does not replicate or recognize. However, it will happily run OS 9.1, and probably 9.2.x with a bit of skulduggery. The 73/75/7600 have a real processor slot and with a G3 or G4 can run OS X. However, anything beyond 10.3.9 is probably pushing it, even with a fast PCI graphics card. Okay, OT off *hides* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are 10 kinds of people: those who read binary, and those who don't. -- From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jan 14 15:07:31 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old "Potter Instrument Co" tape drive available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20080114113934.00a1acd0@mail.softhome.net> Message-ID: <517169.96266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- will wrote: > I am looking for a home for a monster tape drive: > http://www.fpns.net/willy/forsale/TAPEDRV.HTM > Hope this isn't too off topic. Is it worth perserving? > I don't have the interest, nor space. Anyone interested, esp > a club should get in touch, its heading towards the dumpster. > Will UNICOM was a DoD communication system based on No. 1 ESS technology, and usually mentioned in the same breath as AUTOVON. UNICOM apparently had data and store-and-forward capability. This drive would date to roughly 1961-1963. I think it might be interesting to a telco equipment collector. I seem to recall there was some discussion at one time of folks who collect switching equipment, etc. A quick web search turned up a few things, but not a mailing list. Is there any such thing? --Bill From bill.whitmer at itt.com Mon Jan 14 11:53:37 2008 From: bill.whitmer at itt.com (Whitmer, Bill -Systems) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:53:37 -0700 Subject: Gridcase 1520 Message-ID: <41FF98EF853F5E45B98D30F72F94473E5E5971@ITTSYSEMAILHQ1.systems.de.ittind.com> Hello, If you know where or from whom we may purchase at least four fully functional Gridcase 1520 or 1530 laptops please advise. Bill Whitmer ITT Corp A/CD Depot 1460 Garden of the Gods Road Colorado Springs Colorado USA 80907 bill.whitmer at itt.com 719/594-5032 ________________________________ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporation. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 14 13:48:44 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:48:44 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) In-Reply-To: <478B9AF2.1060100@jbrain.com> References: <0JUM00LSWWV43GQE@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <478B9AF2.1060100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <478BBC9C.30901@bellatlantic.net> Jim Brain wrote: > Allison wrote: >> Found it, now what tool is used to display the .SCH file in useable form. >> The code looks good and a 8051 is plenty enough to do the task as the DEC >> keyboards used 8051. >> > EAGLE CAD (www.cadsoftusa.com). Free for personal use. Good tool, I > use it. > > Jim Should have recognized it as that.. already installed on the system. Allison From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 15:21:40 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:21:40 -0700 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:47:40 -0800. <135162.7939.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <135162.7939.qm at web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, William Maddox writes: > --- Richard wrote: > > > Does anyone have any links for VT01 storage scope display system > > manuals? I want to look at the details on this peripheral. > > I believe that the scope itself is a Tektronix 611. I have a > service manual and a couple of the scopes. Yes, its a Tektronix 611 scope, probably just OEMed with a DEC facade. However, I'm more interested in what you had on your PDP-8 (or whatever) system to drive the 611. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 15:29:19 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:29:19 +0100 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <8CA2449E3D41D9F-7FC-1419@WEBMAIL-DC03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA2449E3D41D9F-7FC-1419@WEBMAIL-DC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:22:17 -0500 > From: tiggerlasv at aim.com > Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . > > > Someone just posted a complete 11/70 board set on e-bay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300190400927 > > -Snip- > > You are bidding on 18 cards pulled from a working PDP11/70 CPU headed for the dump. > ? > Sadly I had no way of transporting the several hundred pound rack > and was only able to remove the cards. > > -Snip- > > (Sadly, I can't bring myself to tell him that the?front panel alone?would > ?probably have been?worth?3?or 4?times what he'll get for the boards. . . . ) > > T > ? Hmmm, the last board listed is the M8255. That is the board that goes into slot 40. It is used on the 11/70's with the "remote console", so this stripped 11/70 probably did not have the "blinkenlight" console. Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is scapped and only the boards survived. - Henk. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 15:30:13 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:30:13 -0600 Subject: Old "Potter Instrument Co" tape drive available In-Reply-To: <517169.96266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20080114113934.00a1acd0@mail.softhome.net> <517169.96266.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801141330k2858dca1n9d51fa8e9a1de9d7@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 14, 2008 3:07 PM, William Maddox wrote: > I think it might be interesting to a telco equipment collector. > I seem to recall there was some discussion at one time of folks > who collect switching equipment, etc. A quick web search turned > up a few things, but not a mailing list. Is there any such > thing? Most of these guys are phone collectors, but there are a number of switchers and a few Big Iron types on these lists: http://telephonecollectors.org/singwire/singwire.htm http://atcaonline.com/ And this one, which is related to TCI above: http://www.switchersquarterly.org/ From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jan 14 15:44:51 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:44:51 -0500 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:47:40 PST." <135162.7939.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801142144.m0ELiq6D020207@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Maddox wrote: > >I believe that the scope itself is a Tektronix 611. I have a >service manual and a couple of the scopes. Are there any pictures around of the 601 or 611? (was one of them a rectangular storage scope with an "erase" button?) -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 14 15:47:54 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:47:54 -0800 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? Message-ID: <478BD88A.7090609@bitsavers.org> > However, I'm more interested in what you had on your PDP-8 (or > whatever) system to drive the 611. KV graphics display system http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8i/DEC-8I-H6MA-D_KV_Graphic_Display_System_Maint_Apr70.pdf From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 14 16:22:34 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:22:34 -0500 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals In-Reply-To: <01C85676.F028E240@MSE_D03> References: <01C85676.F028E240@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200801141722.35081.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 14 January 2008 06:03, M H Stein wrote: > -------------Original Message: > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:07:00 +0000 > From: g-wright at att.net > Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals > > I seem to have my share of Terminals that have bad keyboard parts. > 3 that I'm working now have the same type of Keyboard. These > are Hazeltine 1500 and ADM 3As. These have an molded base > with fingers that stick up and a second square piece that slide into the > base and makes and breaks the finger contact. It also has a square opening > in the top for the key cap. So when someone drops a heavy object on the > the key board this intermediate piece cracks in the corners and binds in > the base. > > What I would like to find is a doner type of system that does not have > any value so I can rob the middle piece.. (typewiter) ??? > > Tandy (Archer) sold a Alpha-Numrtic keyboard that said it was made > for the TI 99/4 computer. It used the same switch type keyboard. > > - Jerry > > Jerry Wright > g-wright at att.net > > --------Reply: > I've got a few boxes full of keyboards & parts; any chance of a picture > off-list? > > mike Or put it up somewhere that more than one of us can get at it? I have some old stuff kicking around too... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 17:45:21 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:45:21 -0700 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:29:19 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Henk Gooijen writes: > [...] Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is > scapped and only the boards survived. Better that than nothing. How hard is it to get a suitable cabinet and unibus backplane? (Assuming this is unibus.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 17:32:20 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:32:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MOMS Autograft4 In-Reply-To: <0JUL00HPHY7NZQ10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> from "Grant Stockly" at Jan 13, 8 03:19:04 pm Message-ID: > > > >Has anyone ever heard of an Autograft system? When I try to turn it > >on it fails. The hard drive grunts and then it sounds like its > >releasing a relay or solenoid. I plugged it into a regular desktop > >power supply and it does the same thing Then the access LED blinks > >morse code at me. Is there any way I can get it spinning to recover What is the make and model of the hard disk? I susepct it's actually some standard drive. > >the data? What do you guys recommend? It was frozen last night but > >its warm now. > > Update, the hard drive is now spinning...but the 186 CPU card isn't > doing anything according to the Jade bus probe...so do I leave the I have no idea what the Jade probe actually does, but have you done the normal tests of checking the supply voltages at the processor oard, then checking if the CPU clock is running, checking that the reset line isn't stuck asseted, and then looking for activity on the address and data lines? Ues a ;scope or logic probe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 17:18:06 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:18:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PET power supply questions In-Reply-To: <20080113222209.GB15309@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 13, 8 10:22:09 pm Message-ID: > _real_ cassette drive, but I think the latest versions of the C2N232 > can use MOTOR-ON as another input line, so I'll need some small amount > of power for the motor circuit. I thought that the Motor-On signal was just a swtich to ground inside the tape recorder that signaled to the PET that the play or record keys had been pressed. IIRC it goes to a TTL-level input somewhere. It's independant of the actual motor control circuit, which IIRC is a power transistor connecting the unregulared 9V line to the motor. About 20 years ago (is it that long???) I built an interface between a PET casstte port and a Radio Shack tape recorder, The recorder i used had the useful design feature that the internal power switch (operated by the keys on the recorder) was 'before' the remote control socket. That means I could use a relay conencted to the socekt to control the motor (relay coil driven from the motor drive output on the PET) and could sense the power voltage on one side of that socket wrt ground (outside of the audio sockets) to determine if the keys were pressed. So my interface worked just like a real CBM tape unit. I should still have the scheamtics, etc for that, but they will take some finding... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 14 17:51:26 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:51:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals In-Reply-To: <01C85676.F028E240@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Jan 14, 8 06:03:08 am Message-ID: > > I seem to have my share of Terminals that have bad keyboard parts. > 3 that I'm working now have the same type of Keyboard. These > are Hazeltine 1500 and ADM 3As. These have an molded base > with fingers that stick up and a second square piece that slide into the base > and makes and breaks the finger contact. It also has a square opening in the > top for the key cap. So when someone drops a heavy object on the the key board > this intermediate piece cracks in the corners and binds in the base. I know the design well. The contacts spring togethe, and are kept apart by a plastic pin in the plunger when the key is not pressed. The keycap is a press-fit into the plunger, which means it slightly stretches the latter. In time the plunger cracks anyway, even if you don'y drop anything on it. The other prolem is fitting new contacts. At one time you could buy individual contacts and more importantly a tool to hold them and press them in place without damaging them. Said tool was (at least) sold by Radio Shack Nationl Parts Centre and HP (I have part numbers for both), but AFAIK it's now unavailale, It's possilble to use long-nose pliers carefully, but it's very easy to mangle the contacts. > > What I would like to find is a doner type of system that does not have > any value so I can rob the middle piece.. (typewiter) ??? I've seen this type of keyswitch on (at least) the following : DEC VT50 series DEC VT100 series TRS-80 Model 1 (early version only) TI 99/4a HP80 series (HP85, etc) HP9915 keyboard (very rare!) HP98203 (small keyboard for the HP9816) HP2623 (IIRC) graphics terminal Unfortunatley none of those are exactly common. When I repaired my 9816, I was lucky enough to find a 'spare' VT52 keyboard PCB i nthe junk box, given to me with a load of other DEC spares, which provided contacts, plungers, even keycaps. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 18:14:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:14:58 -0700 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:47:54 -0800. <478BD88A.7090609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <478BD88A.7090609 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > However, I'm more interested in what you had on your PDP-8 (or > > whatever) system to drive the 611. > > KV graphics display system Thanks, Al! This is exactly what I was looking for. I don't think I would ever have found it by simply browsing as there is *tons* of DEC stuff on bitsavers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 18:52:33 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:52:33 -0800 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: <200801142144.m0ELiq6D020207@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <135162.7939.qm@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200801142144.m0ELiq6D020207@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801141652w5c4527di4727a991cdc9753@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 14, 2008 1:44 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > > Are there any pictures around of the 601 or 611? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110214356890 (I have no connection to that listing) From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 14 20:31:42 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:31:42 -0800 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478C1B0E.8090407@shiresoft.com> The 11/70 CPU is *not* a unibus backplane. It is a *very* large backplane that fills an entire BA11F. Richard wrote: > In article , > Henk Gooijen writes: > > >> [...] Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is >> scapped and only the boards survived. >> > > Better that than nothing. How hard is it to get a suitable cabinet > and unibus backplane? (Assuming this is unibus.) > -- TTFN - Guy From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 14 20:36:27 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:36:27 -0500 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801142136.27838.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 January 2008 18:45, Richard wrote: > In article , > > Henk Gooijen writes: > > [...] Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is > > scapped and only the boards survived. > > Better that than nothing. How hard is it to get a suitable cabinet > and unibus backplane? (Assuming this is unibus.) The cardcage would be difficult, but probably not impossible, especially if you had the backplane. With out the (custom to the 11/70) backplane, you can have man-months of joy-filled wire-wrapping to create a new one... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From markk at clara.co.uk Mon Jan 14 20:56:11 2008 From: markk at clara.co.uk (Mark) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:56:11 +0000 Subject: Converting monochrome video signal to VGA monitor? Message-ID: <1200365772.4979.65.camel@pc> Hi, On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 "Martin Bishop" wrote: > IIRC someone suggested using a multisync monitor, that is likely to be > the cheapest and simplest way ahead. SyncOnGreen to Grn should give > you a nice green greyscale - white would require a video buffer (the > problem is loading by the terminators - which might just be > switchable / linkable). However UK prices for 19" NEC MultiSyncs are > about 200, i.e. double the price of cheap TFTs. Perhaps you can pick > up a small second hand one. > > Boxes are available to convert RGB to VGA, see e.g. > http://www.cadesigns.co.uk/mi1a.htm. Not cheap, just slightly less > than a multisync monitor, but the target market is banking. I have > used these for (VaxStation) VCB02 (RGB) to (VGA) TFT conversion. > Although the Hz fit of the screen image can be a bit "iffy" - > infinitely better than working on the console port. > > If you wish to roll your own, which I'm certain you don't, the > Intersil EL4583 data sheet and associated apps notes are a good place > to start. Additionally, the apps notes contain a fair bit of > background information which may be of interest. Thanks for the tip. Luckily it seems the video converter board I want to use has separate TTL-level horizontal & vertical syncs, just like VGA. I still need to determine the video signal amplitude, but it's looking like I'll just be able to use a resistor to connect it to the green line of the monitor. My monitor has 5 BNC inputs and can be set to high-Z, but I'll be running it through a KVM switch which has normal VGA connectors. The KVM probably has on-board termination. The amplitude probably isn't sufficient to drive 75-ohm red, green and blue lines without buffering/amplification. Horizontal sync frequency will be around either 31kHz or 54kHz depending on the mode (pixel clock 49.5MHz or 72MHz), so most modern (CRT) monitors should be able to handle that. Interestingly, looking at the board circuitry there seems to be a facility to provide your own pixel clock, so the horizontal & vertical frequencies could be adjusted if necessary. (Or maybe that was only used for factory testing.) -- Mark From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jan 14 20:57:17 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:57:17 -0500 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:52:33 PST." <1e1fc3e90801141652w5c4527di4727a991cdc9753@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200801150257.m0F2vHPF000838@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Glen Slick" wrote: >On Jan 14, 2008 1:44 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> >> Are there any pictures around of the 601 or 611? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110214356890 oh dang. you had to do that. now I have to bid! (that is the display which connected to 8/L's at Carleton college; they had a great extension to FOCAL called COLPAC which would plot to the display and do a vector font. They also had a joystick straight out of "lost in space" - a large ball with stick and a "button" bar at the top.) -brad From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 21:02:48 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:02:48 -0700 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:31:42 -0800. <478C1B0E.8090407@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <478C1B0E.8090407 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > The 11/70 CPU is *not* a unibus backplane. It is a *very* large > backplane that fills an entire BA11F. Interesting, I just assumed it was unibus. Is the /70 the only PDP-11 that has a custom backplane? I thought the PDP-11 family had standard backplanes: unibus and Q-bus. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 14 21:04:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:04:59 -0700 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:57:17 -0500. <200801150257.m0F2vHPF000838@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200801150257.m0F2vHPF000838 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > now I have to bid! I was trying to keep everyone else out of it by not mentioning that :) > (that is the display which connected to 8/L's at Carleton college; they > had a great extension to FOCAL called COLPAC which would plot to the > display and do a vector font. They also had a joystick straight out > of "lost in space" - a large ball with stick and a "button" bar at the > top.) The one shown on page 1-3 of the below manual? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 14 21:26:30 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:26:30 -0500 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801142226.30371.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 January 2008 22:02, Richard wrote: > In article <478C1B0E.8090407 at shiresoft.com>, > > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > The 11/70 CPU is *not* a unibus backplane. It is a *very* large > > backplane that fills an entire BA11F. > > Interesting, I just assumed it was unibus. Is the /70 the only > PDP-11 that has a custom backplane? I thought the PDP-11 family had > standard backplanes: unibus and Q-bus. No. Every UNIBUS -11 has a custom CPU backplane to some extent. The QBUS ones have a mostly common backplane (ignoring differences in how many bits are wired on the address lines) mostly because the CPU fits all one one board. FWIW, UNIBUS is a bus, not a backplane type. A DD11 is pretty much the only UNIBUS backplane that isn't custom to the device that's in it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 22:41:28 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:41:28 -0800 Subject: WD1001 MFM controller wanted In-Reply-To: <478BCA58.8060207@bluewin.ch> References: <478BCA58.8060207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Hi I was told by Tony that the 5Meg Tandy ( Radio Shack ) drive box had a similar controller. The firmware seems to be identical to the WD1001. I've used the Tandy controller on my Olivetti M20 that also seems be identical to the WD1001. Both the Tandy and the Olivetti didn't use the interrupt and used polling instead. If this is compatible with what you need, you might look into either controller from a Olivetti M20 or Tandy. The Olivetti was almost identical to the WD1001 from schematics but the Tandy had the addition of some address decoding, buss termination and buffering that was not on the WD1001. All this can be bypassed or removed if needed( as I did ). Dwight PS I did find a WD1001 but I have another application that needs it so I'm afraid it is not available. I have seen these on eBay about ever 4 or so months. I see a Tandy controllers about ever 1 to 2 months. I've seen the same controller used on the 8Meg as well. You need to look for the box with the typical MF connectors on the back. This model has the controller built in. The newer units used a controller in the TRS box and just had the drive and supply in the box. Easily distinguished by the connectors. Dwight > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:47:20 +0100 > From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch > To: > Subject: WD1001 MFM controller wanted > > Looking for an Western Digital WD1001 MFM controller card , preferably working. > > It is an 8X305 based, very early controller card . > I do not know how rare they were, but they are bound to be rare now. > > Jos Dreesen _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From g-wright at att.net Mon Jan 14 22:58:53 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:58:53 +0000 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals Message-ID: <011520080458.4363.478C3D8C0003754E0000110B22216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell): -------------- > > I know the design well. The contacts spring togethe, and are kept apart > by a plastic pin in the plunger when the key is not pressed. > > The keycap is a press-fit into the plunger, which means it slightly > stretches the latter. In time the plunger cracks anyway, even if you > don'y drop anything on it. > > The other prolem is fitting new contacts. At one time you could buy > individual contacts and more importantly a tool to hold them and press > them in place without damaging them. Said tool was (at least) sold by > Radio Shack Nationl Parts Centre and HP (I have part numbers for both), > but AFAIK it's now unavailale, It's possilble to use long-nose pliers > carefully, but it's very easy to mangle the contacts. > > > > > What I would like to find is a doner type of system that does not have > > any value so I can rob the middle piece.. (typewiter) ??? > > I've seen this type of keyswitch on (at least) the following : > > DEC VT50 series > DEC VT100 series > TRS-80 Model 1 (early version only) > TI 99/4a > HP80 series (HP85, etc) > HP9915 keyboard (very rare!) > HP98203 (small keyboard for the HP9816) > HP2623 (IIRC) graphics terminal > > Unfortunatley none of those are exactly common. When I repaired my 9816, > I was lucky enough to find a 'spare' VT52 keyboard PCB i nthe junk box, > given to me with a load of other DEC spares, which provided contacts, > plungers, even keycaps. > > -tony > Yes that is what I'm finding . The donors have more value than the pieces I'm working on. Tony, Do you have one of these tools ??? and/or what it looks like - Jerry Jerry wright g-wright at att.net From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jan 14 23:01:01 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:01:01 -0800 Subject: SEL advert (question) In-Reply-To: <478B9143.6080604@ubanproductions.com> References: <478797AF.5000002@bitsavers.org> <478980AD.8060409@comcast.net> <011101c85593$abee8c30$23406b43@66067007> <478A2897.3090901@comcast.net> <478B9143.6080604@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > I worked for the Gould Computer Systems Division in Urbana IL from > '86 to '88, fresh out of college, helping first with the BSD based > Un*x operating system kernel for the Concept/Powernode line of > processors and then a bit on the NP1 processor before I left to > work for BBN Advanced Computers Inc. in Cambridge MA. Out of curiosity, do you know anything about any of the small computer systems Gould produced? For example, I have a 9540, which is a desktop-sized MC68010-based multibus UNIX machine. It has an 8" floppy, ST-412 style disk interface, and ethernet. I have some documentation for it, but I'm not sure where it fits in their systems lineup, or what market niche Gould were intending it to fill. It seems to be something of an orphan. If you knew anything about the provenance of the UNIX software itself on this machine, that'd be worth discovering as well. It proclaims itself "G-NIX", but not consistently. Is it derived from a Unisoft release, like most of the 68k UNIX systems of that era? ok bear From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 14 11:03:34 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Wollongong Group In-Reply-To: <478AF376.823E3103@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <484370.45245.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Wollongong is a town in Australia, no? I was of the impression that they were an Aussie company also. They made a TCP/IP stack for DOS IINM, as part of a package of sorts back in the day. --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > > >> > (As I've said before on the list) there was > at least one third-party producing > > >> > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around > to it. > > >> > > >> CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? > > > > > > The implementation I was recalling was from the > Wollongong Group (Univ. in > > > Australia) (WIN/TCP I believe). > > > > TWG was a Silicon Valley company. > > Well that's funny, I don't where my mis-perception > as to the origins originated > but I think I've had it since way back when. > (Somebody else ordered the > software package - I just programmed with it). > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 14 13:45:23 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:45:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old "Potter Instrument Co" tape drive available In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20080114113934.00a1acd0@mail.softhome.net> Message-ID: <978771.40364.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> It would be nice if someone could save it... Potter, or specifically S.A. Potter, was a NY based company that made *precision bench lathes* in the 20's (and yes I do own one :). Apparently this company was also based in NY. Wonder if there's a connection. Many companies branched off into subsidiaries (like Pratt & Whitney), although this one doesn't seem like it was anywhere near as big. At some specific points in time, there were at least 3 different P & W's... Is rambling banned? --- will wrote: > I am looking for a home for a monster tape drive: > http://www.fpns.net/willy/forsale/TAPEDRV.HTM > Hope this isn't too off topic. Is it worth > perserving? > I don't have the interest, nor space. Anyone > interested, esp > a club should get in touch, its heading towards the > dumpster. > Will > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 16:25:22 2008 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:25:22 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available Message-ID: Coleco ADAM! Now there's a system seldom heard these days! I'm an old Adamite at heart. There may be someone on Coleco Adam lists that may be interested. Murray-- "Computing forever!" Message: 9 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:42:54 -0800 From: Alan Perry Subject: Anyone interested in a Coleco Adam? To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <478B127E.5090205 at snowmoose.com> <478B127E.5090205 at snowmoose.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed A friend of mine has a Coleco Adam (and bits to go with the system) that he wants to get rid. I do not yet have the complete list of what he has. Anyone here interested in it? It is located in Shelton, WA. It sounded like it was free, but I need to confirm that. alan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 14 16:43:38 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:43:38 -0500 Subject: Backing up VMS Message-ID: <0JUN0012KOGKUV10@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Backing up VMS > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:40:27 +0000 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Fortunately the 4mm drive seems to be OK - I wrote a backup tape > >Have you managed to restore one yet :-) > >My experience of DAT is that after a (short) while they start >to chew tapes. Never had that with DLT: the drive may >break but the tape (for me at least) remains intact. Same here. Though I have some TLZ04s that seem to behave well. >Mind you, I have working RD53s and TK50s so there may be something >in the water here :-) Same here but I got the RD53s as "bad" and opened and fixed them. I also ahve TK50s (on sleds) and the boxed TK50 in both the DEC sorta scsi flavor. >>The good news is that BACKUP/IMAGE from one SCSI drive to >> another worked fine > >That's by design rather than luck ... BACKUP/IMAGE is supposed >to do that. If you BACKUP/IMAGE to a saveset instead, then >you'll have a single file that you can FTP somewhere else >for archiving. > >Given that 18GB SCSI disks are cheap (== free, usually) and >readily available, I would hook one of those up, initialise it, Back when 1GB drives were free and easily found I got a bunch along with a stack of RZ55s and 56s (with BA42 storage boxen). so that was the simplest and fastest solution for my systems with SCSI (all of the 3100s and one BA123 uVAXII). The others (BA23 uVAX and uVAX2000s) I use RD53s and 54s for that. Allison From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 17:07:24 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:07:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> References: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > ... and was rewarded with a gift of 3 very rare Honewell Bull diskcartidges, > which will go a long way in keeping my Lilith running for a few more years. > > And even more importantly, I got loaned all technical infomation on the > Lilith : circuit decription, schematics, microcode listings, you name it, it > is there ! If you are able to get the Modula-2 technical reports and M-Code reference manual, I will be forever grateful! Tried several times in the late 80's, but none of my letters (pre-e-mail) were ever responded to. This stuff is key to reverse engineering the Borland Turbo-Modula2 environment for CP/M. Steve -- From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 01:48:05 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:48:05 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730801142348h53ffd5aem56e52dc36f657d2a@mail.gmail.com> > From: Alan Perry > > A friend of mine has a Coleco Adam (and bits to go with the system) that > he wants to get rid. I do not yet have the complete list of what he > has. Anyone here interested in it? It is located in Shelton, WA. It > sounded like it was free, but I need to confirm that. > > alan Any idea if he's willing to ship it? From vze323vd at verizon.net Tue Jan 15 01:59:44 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (vze323vd) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:59:44 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in a Coleco Adam? In-Reply-To: <478B127E.5090205@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Alan Perry > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 2:43 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Anyone interested in a Coleco Adam? > > > > A friend of mine has a Coleco Adam (and bits to go with the system) that > he wants to get rid. I do not yet have the complete list of what he > has. Anyone here interested in it? It is located in Shelton, WA. It > sounded like it was free, but I need to confirm that. > > alan > > Alan, I would be interested in this computer. Can you tell me, roughly, what shipping would be for it to Norwood, Pennsylvania 19074. I had one a long time ago then my wife got rid of it at a yard sale (ugh), she didn't think I used it anymore. She understands the collecton much better now though and even enjoys it too. LOL It would be fun to play around with one again. Greg Manuel gmanuel at gmconsulting.net vze323vd at verizon.net P.S. I could not find your direct address to send this to you. That is why I replied to the forum. Sorry. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 15 04:39:38 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:39:38 +0000 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <200801142136.27838.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200801142136.27838.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200801151039.38543.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Tuesday 15 January 2008 02:36:27 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 14 January 2008 18:45, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > > > Henk Gooijen writes: > > > [...] Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is > > > scapped and only the boards survived. > > > > Better that than nothing. How hard is it to get a suitable cabinet > > and unibus backplane? (Assuming this is unibus.) > > The cardcage would be difficult, but probably not impossible, especially > if you had the backplane. With out the (custom to the 11/70) > backplane, you can have man-months of joy-filled wire-wrapping to > create a new one... You never know, it might be worth contacting the seller and asking if they can pull the backplane if it hasn't gone already... A boardset is indeed better than nothing though. Gordon From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Jan 15 05:03:09 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:03:09 +0000 Subject: Old "Potter Instrument Co" tape drive available In-Reply-To: <200801141911.m0EJAYbt036637@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801141911.m0EJAYbt036637@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 14 Jan, 2008, at 19:11, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I am looking for a home for a monster tape drive: > http://www.fpns.net/willy/forsale/TAPEDRV.HTM > Hope this isn't too off topic. Is it worth perserving? > I don't have the interest, nor space. Anyone interested, esp > a club should get in touch, its heading towards the dumpster. > Will What continent is it on? Is it half inch tape, one inch or quarter inch? Any idea how many tracks? Someone said it was 61-63, well half inch drives then had ten tracks, later seven tracks and later still nine tracks. Some analogue recorders had even more tracks. Roger Holmes Owner of a dozen Ampex TM4 ten track drives. From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 07:02:04 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:02:04 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <575131af0801140838m2a520b87w5e53c5a15e0111c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801140838m2a520b87w5e53c5a15e0111c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I personally have seen cash machines crash that were using OS/2 (a very long time ago) it used to be every cash machine in the city I live in ran on OS/2, it was a "staple" I thought this was widely known. and yes, they crashed. I miss those screens. But I'd know an OS/2 screen anywhere. there were rumors that IBM was going to open source OS/2, but not sure what came of it, if anything. anyhow, I just got back from vacation so I'm looking for the tape, etc now. may take a while. I might even have to rebuild my vax and tape drive. yippy! Dan. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:38:28 +0000 > From: lproven at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > On 07/01/2008, madodel wrote: >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> On 05/01/2008, madodel wrote: >>>> jd wrote: >>>>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>>> jd wrote: >>>>>>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>>>>> (Having said that, some ATM machines in the UK ran OS/2 for years after >>>>>>>> it was a dead OS elsewhere - [snipsnip] ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's been used in some ATM's in the States, too. People have mentioned >>>>>>> getting to the desktop or a shell and manipulating ATM's from there, >>>>>>> somehow. >>>>>> Weird. I've certainly seen at least one UK ATM fall over and break out >>>>>> of its program (this was quite a few years ago) - but I'm amazed that >>>>>> anyone would design an ATM in such a way that the keypad buttons were >>>>>> directly readable by the native OS for just that reason. >>>>> Considering how naive about physical and electronic security just >>>>> about everyone was then, I would not be at all surprised. This was at >>>>> about the time OS/2 first came out and found it's way into industrial >>>>> equipment, I think. The KISS mentality was still in full effect and >>>>> hardware design for ATM's still consisted of collecting off-the-shelf >>>>> components and tossing them together. An ATM would have just one >>>>> console and that would be the front monitor and keypad, often by >>>>> default, and the rear monitor and keypad or keyboard, if so equipped, >>>>> that would require using a hardware or software switch, like those old >>>>> Inmac KVM-without-the-M switch boxes. Of course, for convenience, it >>>>> was possible to do stuff from the front keypad, such as use a >>>>> maintenance menu. Eventually, when ATM design evolved, such convenient >>>>> features faded into oblivion. >>>> I have never seen an OS/2 based ATM at a command prompt. It must have been >>>> a windoze based ATM. And many ATMs still run OS/2. It is only being >>>> replaced by windoze on new models since IBM refused to support the hardware >>>> any more. >>> >>> You are very confident for someone asserting that another person has >>> not seen something that they say they have. How can you know? >>> >> >> I've been using OS/2 since version 1.3. > > So you came in after me, then. :?) > >> I'm fairly well acquainted with >> its capabilities. Yes I can be wrong and maybe you saw what you think you >> saw, but all you have is a story. Where is your proof other then that you >> think you saw it was OS/2? I can't prove a negative, but you should be >> able to prove that it did happen. > > How, exactly? You want a photograph? Sorry, but even if I had one, > such things are readily photoshopped now. If you want signed witness > statements, well, again, expect to be disappointed. > > I know OS/2. It's one of a tiny handful of programs for the PC I've > ever actually bought with my own money; indeed I suspect I've spent > more on OS/2 than on all other PC software put together. > > I know an OS/2 command prompt when I see one. > > I also know that OS/2 was once very widely used in cash machines; this > is well-known and an objective fact, and indeed cash machines were one > of the last strongholds of OS/2. > > So what is it that you have difficulty believing? That OS/2 crashes? > Hint: run up a Warp box, put Fractint on it, and try some of the > clever hacked VGA screen modes. Watch the TRAP errors abound. > > That an ATM's software would be so badly written that it would fail to > a command prompt? If that is the case, you must have led a very > sheltered life. > > That someone has seen something you personally have not? Again, this > is a very widespread occurrence. > >> If this were a common occurrence then we would be able to find some >> documentation of it other then just someone's antidotal remembrance > > I think you perhaps mean "anecdotal", as in an anecdotal account. > >> that it >> might have happened and it might have been OS/2. There is ample evidence >> of crashed windoze ATMs on the net. Like I said I have never seen that. > > You don't get out much, then! > > Google for it. Try an image search for "atm crash". Here's a gallery, > including a crashed OS/2 airport terminal: > http://julian.coccia.com/gallery/wincrashes > >> But I've never seen a crashed windoze ATM either. I have seen broken ATM's >> but never at an OS/2 prompt. And as I also posted, if the original ATM >> code programmer had known what they were doing then the program itself >> should have been set as the shell, so no command prompt should have ever >> been attainable. > > So in summary, all you're saying is that you've never seen it and you > find it surprising that there are programmers who are so incompetent? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com > Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 > _________________________________________________________________ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jan 15 08:15:20 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:15:20 -0300 Subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?) References: <615072E671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <012001c85781$5727c140$0202a8c0@portajara> > The hardware shouldn't be very complicated at all - I've been thinking > about building up an 8031 > (because I have lots, and development tools etc.). If you use an AVR, you can use BASCOM from www.mcselec.com which has nice tools for that. You can build an AVR programmer for less than $5 and you can have keyboard/mouse inputs and multiple serial outputs But I'd use a pair of Attiny 13 or Attiny 2313 for this application... From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Jan 15 06:59:19 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:59:19 -0600 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <200801151039.38543.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200801142136.27838.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200801151039.38543.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <478CAE27.4070608@ubanproductions.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tuesday 15 January 2008 02:36:27 Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Monday 14 January 2008 18:45, Richard wrote: >>> In article , >>> >>> Henk Gooijen writes: >>>> [...] Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is >>>> scapped and only the boards survived. >>> Better that than nothing. How hard is it to get a suitable cabinet >>> and unibus backplane? (Assuming this is unibus.) >> The cardcage would be difficult, but probably not impossible, especially >> if you had the backplane. With out the (custom to the 11/70) >> backplane, you can have man-months of joy-filled wire-wrapping to >> create a new one... > > You never know, it might be worth contacting the seller and asking if they can > pull the backplane if it hasn't gone already... > > A boardset is indeed better than nothing though. FWIW, I have two 11/70 machines plus a spare backplane. One of my machines was a complete original, the other I put together from spare parts. Before anyone dives into this sort of project, they should fully understand what they are in for. In order to add the conventional core memory used on an 11/70, there is another set of external boxes required as the 11/70 does not use the ordinary Unibus memory. Then there is the consideration of power, front panel, etc. Still, while I would love to have this set of boards as spares, if they go for some large price tag and someone needs a backplane for a BIG project, I would be willing to part with my spare backplane. --tom From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 09:20:41 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:20:41 -0500 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <478CAE27.4070608@ubanproductions.com> References: <200801142136.27838.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200801151039.38543.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <478CAE27.4070608@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <478CCF49.6070408@gmail.com> Tom Uban wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> On Tuesday 15 January 2008 02:36:27 Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> On Monday 14 January 2008 18:45, Richard wrote: >>>> In article , >>>> >>>> Henk Gooijen writes: >>>>> [...] Nevertheless, a shame that the machine is >>>>> scapped and only the boards survived. >>>> Better that than nothing. How hard is it to get a suitable cabinet >>>> and unibus backplane? (Assuming this is unibus.) >>> The cardcage would be difficult, but probably not impossible, especially >>> if you had the backplane. With out the (custom to the 11/70) >>> backplane, you can have man-months of joy-filled wire-wrapping to >>> create a new one... >> >> You never know, it might be worth contacting the seller and asking if >> they can pull the backplane if it hasn't gone already... >> >> A boardset is indeed better than nothing though. > > FWIW, I have two 11/70 machines plus a spare backplane. One of my machines > was a complete original, the other I put together from spare parts. Before > anyone dives into this sort of project, they should fully understand what > they are in for. In order to add the conventional core memory used on an > 11/70, there is another set of external boxes required as the 11/70 does > not use the ordinary Unibus memory. Then there is the consideration of > power, > front panel, etc. > > Still, while I would love to have this set of boards as spares, if they > go for some large price tag and someone needs a backplane for a BIG > project, > I would be willing to part with my spare backplane. I will be attempting to bid on the boardset, and I would love to acquire your backplane if I win. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 15 09:22:30 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:22:30 -0700 Subject: CD-ROM caddy wanted Message-ID: Anyone got some laying around they don't need? I need one for the external CD-ROM drives for my SGI machines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 15 10:31:34 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:31:34 -0500 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B381634-7397-487F-93ED-92E32ED4A184@neurotica.com> On Jan 14, 2008, at 10:02 PM, Richard wrote: >> The 11/70 CPU is *not* a unibus backplane. It is a *very* large >> backplane that fills an entire BA11F. > > Interesting, I just assumed it was unibus. Is the /70 the only PDP-11 > that has a custom backplane? I thought the PDP-11 family had standard > backplanes: unibus and Q-bus. No, (most) PDP-11s have standard *peripheral buses*, Unibus and Q- bus. In fact, most (all?) Unibus PDP-11s have backplanes that are specific to the processor being used, as nearly all of them are multi- board sets (LOTS of boards in the case of the 11/70) and the card- edge connectors carry processor-internal signals, not high-level Unibus signals. Some PDP-11s have their memory on the Unibus or Qbus, and some don't. The 11/70 (which I mention because that's what started this thread) does not. Some of them are "close relatives" like the 11/04 and 11/34, which share the same backplane. In those systems, for example, the first few slots are not Unibus, but carry CPU-internal signals. Later slots are Unibus. Qbus PDP-1s are more standardized across the product line. Most (all?) of them use an all-Qbus backplane and the CPU is contained on one board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 15 10:42:01 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:42:01 -0700 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <2B381634-7397-487F-93ED-92E32ED4A184@neurotica.com> References: <2B381634-7397-487F-93ED-92E32ED4A184@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <478CE259.3010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Qbus PDP-1s are more standardized across the product line. Most > (all?) of them use an all-Qbus backplane and the CPU is contained on one > board. Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from the mid 1960's that was made with VLSI components. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 15 10:41:14 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:41:14 -0500 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <478CE259.3010808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2B381634-7397-487F-93ED-92E32ED4A184@neurotica.com> <478CE259.3010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2008, at 11:42 AM, woodelf wrote: >> Qbus PDP-1s are more standardized across the product line. Most >> (all?) of them use an all-Qbus backplane and the CPU is contained >> on one board. > > Chuckles at the typo. Eeeek! Sorry about that. It was a funny one, though. > Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from the mid 1960's > that was made with VLSI components. Hmmm, that is a good question! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 15 11:11:07 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:11:07 -0700 Subject: Rescued HP 7980 Tape drives, free for pick up Kent Wa. In-Reply-To: <478AF45A.9070502@gmail.com> References: <011320082039.24112.478A76FF00030D4C00005E3022230704929B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <478AE773.7010002@Rikers.org> <008601c85669$61059610$6600a8c0@JWEST> <478AF45A.9070502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <478CE92B.7090206@Rikers.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> Tim wrote... >>> Now if you had an HP-7970 I'd be all over that. :) >> I have a 7970A that is only partially functional. Looking for a good >> home. > > What's wrong with it? Yes, and how do I get it to Salt Lake City? :) I don't suppose you'll bundle the cards and cables I need too? :) Jay West wrote: > Tim wrote... >> I'm not sure if an HP-1000 series can handle an HPIB interface drive >> instead of whatever the interface is on a 7970. > Sure, HP-IB tape drives, no problem. Anyone have spare HP-IB cards around then? :) I'm guessing they look different from a software perspective, so a 7980 on HP-IB would not be usable by existing TSB releases. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 15 11:29:46 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:29:46 -0700 Subject: CD-ROM caddy wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478CED8A.70903@Rikers.org> One of these? http://www.pc-911.com/product_images/cd_caddy.jpg If so, I can dig up a few if you like. Holler and we'll hook up. Are you still at the same office? -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jam at magic.com Tue Jan 15 11:37:52 2008 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:37:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) Message-ID: <200801151737.JAA17238@magellan.magic.com> > Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from the mid > 1960's that was made with VLSI components. IBM 360 (still being made today) Data General Nova (MicroNOVA) PDP-11 (LSI-11) Maybe HP 21xx (A series?) Just to name a few. James Markevitch From alanp at snowmoose.com Tue Jan 15 12:20:09 2008 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:20:09 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com> > > >From: "Jason T" > > >>> From: Alan Perry >> >>> A friend of mine has a Coleco Adam (and bits to go with the system) that >>> he wants to get rid. I do not yet have the complete list of what he >>> has. Anyone here interested in it? It is located in Shelton, WA. It >>> sounded like it was free, but I need to confirm that. >> >> > >Any idea if he's willing to ship it? > I expect that he is going to ship it (at the expense of whoever gets it). My friend was quite surprised when I forwarded him e-mail from 4 people who were interested in it. alan From paco.linux at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 12:22:11 2008 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:22:11 +0100 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801011436o779c31b2h6df1a6d9473c7ba2@mail.gmail.com> <20080101144249.I49652@shell.lmi.net> <477AD3F9.9050408@ptdprolog.net> <477BA4D1.9070301@brutman.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080102121331.1004ea58@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: Hi: Are you near this tape? Can you give more information? Today is Jan 15... Paco On Jan 3, 2008 5:06 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I am currently OVER 14,000 KM away from the system and tape in question, > I won't be back to the "land of the living" until Jan 14th > > I really should learn to stop posting these things while on vacation ;) > > Dan. > > > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 23:20:27 -0800 > > From: rivie at ridgenet.net > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > CC: > > Subject: Re: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, John Foust wrote: > > > At 08:50 AM 1/2/2008, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > >> I'm confused about this whole thread. I really thought that > > >> there was another entire OS/2 operating system (not from IBM) > > >>that people were talking about. > > > > > > Who else is betting on it being P/OS v2.0 or OS/8? > > > > Don't forget that the OS/8 variant for the DECmate II was called > > OS/278 (because the DECmate II was called the PC-278). > > -- > > roger ivie > > rivie at ridgenet.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon! > http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jan 15 14:27:17 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:27:17 -0300 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> > My friend was quite surprised when I forwarded him e-mail from 4 people > who were interested in it. It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in shipping that to Brazil :o( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 15 13:51:12 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:51:12 -0700 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com> <031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in shipping that > to Brazil :o( Why not? That is real shipping, mate :) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 13:50:24 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:50:24 +0100 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <478C1B0E.8090407@shiresoft.com> References: <478C1B0E.8090407@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:31:42 -0800 > From: ggs at shiresoft.com > To: General at shiresoft.com > CC: > Subject: Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . > > The 11/70 CPU is *not* a unibus backplane. It is a *very* large > backplane that fills an entire BA11F. > > -- > > TTFN - Guy Yes, that's very true what Guy says, but it is even worse than that. The backplane does fill the entire space from front to rear in a BA11-F, but it is actually *two* equally large backplanes. The two halves are just connected by the wire wrapped wires! The first part is the CPU, the second part are the 4 Massbus controllers and a few UNIBUS slots, IIRC. You can look it up in the handbook. So, if the entire backplane is taken out of its BA11-F, you have to handle that beast very careful! If that was to be shipped, I would put it on a piece of wood with screws to transport it safely. - Henk. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 14:13:25 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:13:25 +0100 Subject: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:31:42 -0800. <478C1B0E.8090407@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:02:48 -0700 > Subject: Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . . > > > In article 478C1B0E.8090407 at shiresoft.com, > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > > The 11/70 CPU is *not* a unibus backplane. It is a *very* large > > backplane that fills an entire BA11F. > > Interesting, I just assumed it was unibus. Is the /70 the only PDP-11 > that has a custom backplane? I thought the PDP-11 family had standard > backplanes: unibus and Q-bus. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html As far as I know from my collection (I have a few UNIBUS machines) I can say the following. The PDP-11/10 and PDP-11/05 (OEM version of the /10) have 4 different backplanes, the difference is in the memory and some peripherals supported. I don't have the /20 (and OEM /15) and don't have the /24. The /04 and the /34 (and 34/A and /34C) have a 9-slot backplane of which the first slots are CPU module specific (backplane is the DD11-PK). The 11/40 (and OEM /35) have the same backplane KD11-A, again CPU specific, here 5 slots are for the basic CPU, and 3 slots are dedicated for CIS, FIS and MMU. The /44 has a 14-slot backplane (KD11-Z) and almost all slots are dedicated to specific boards. A few slots are for memory. The /45 and /55 are new in my collection and I have not yet had time to look at them. I suspect that, together with the /50, these 3 share the same backplane (KD11-B or KD11-C), but as said, I can be wrong. The PDP-11/60 backplane (KD11-K) is also 14-slot, and here all slots are dedicated to the CPU modules. The 11/70 backplane, as just written, is physical two parts of each 22 slots, but they are heavily interconnected by wire wrapped wires. Consider the in total 44 slots backplane unseparable. The 11/84 (and /94) are a bit "weird", in that the backplane starts as a sort-of QBUS backplane, and after the "unibus-bridge" continues as a UNIBUS backplane. Several months ago there has been a very good discussion about this backplane! For most of these backplanes you can take a peek on my website, in the folder called "CPU information" under each PDP-11/xx folder. Sorry, the 11/45 folder is "under construction", and the 11/55 folder is still "off-line" ... - Henk. www.pdp-11.nl From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 15 14:14:19 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:14:19 +0000 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) In-Reply-To: <200801151737.JAA17238@magellan.magic.com> References: <200801151737.JAA17238@magellan.magic.com> Message-ID: <478D141B.9000104@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/01/2008 17:37, James A. Markevitch wrote: >> Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from the mid >> 1960's that was made with VLSI components. > > IBM 360 (still being made today) Is it? > Data General Nova (MicroNOVA) Nova came out in 1969, not really mid-60s, though :-) The MicroNOVA was 1977. > PDP-11 (LSI-11) Definitely not mid 1960s. The first PDP-11 appeared in 1970, and LSI-11 came out in 1975! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jan 15 15:27:24 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:27:24 -0300 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> >> It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in shipping that >> to Brazil :o( > Why not? That is real shipping, mate :) Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship something overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, don't now what. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 14:45:03 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:45:03 -0500 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) In-Reply-To: <478D141B.9000104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200801151737.JAA17238@magellan.magic.com> <478D141B.9000104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <478D1B4F.1030102@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/01/2008 17:37, James A. Markevitch wrote: >>> Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from >>> the mid >>> 1960's that was made with VLSI components. >> >> IBM 360 (still being made today) > > Is it? Not really. It's descendants are still being made. IBM will happily make you a part for any of their machines, no matter how old, if you pay enough money. They still have the manufacturer's specs for all of it. Peace... Sridhar From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jan 15 15:02:58 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:02:58 +0100 Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: References: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <478D1F82.5010409@bluewin.ch> > If you are able to get the Modula-2 technical reports and M-Code > reference manual, I will be forever grateful! Tried several times in > the late 80's, but none of my letters (pre-e-mail) were ever responded > to. This stuff is key to reverse engineering the Borland Turbo-Modula2 > environment for CP/M. > Did you have any report in particular in mind ? The modula compiler for the Lilith has been ported to the PC, source code for that compiler is available. Is that what you had in mind ? Jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 15 15:15:30 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:15:30 -0700 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <478D2272.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship something > overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, don't now what. Less profit margin??? BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the cleap daisy wheel printer? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 15 15:19:04 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:19:04 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <478D2272.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <478D2272.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2008, at 4:15 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship >> something overseas...I think there must be something impeding >> them, don't now what. > Less profit margin??? > BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the > cleap daisy wheel printer? Block-structured cassette...Very interesting design, reminds me of DECtape (in the logical sense). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 15 15:29:41 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:29:41 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4F157EFF-07F6-407A-BD9E-512E4D6B3014@neurotica.com> On Jan 15, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in >>> shipping that to Brazil :o( >> Why not? That is real shipping, mate :) > > Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship > something overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, > don't now what. Tons of pain-in-the-butt paperwork. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 15 03:26:52 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:26:52 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: References: <478D2272.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200801152131.m0FLVHE8091233@keith.ezwind.net> > > BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the > > cleap daisy wheel printer? > > Block-structured cassette...Very interesting design, reminds me of > DECtape (in the logical sense). And the "cheap printer" is an integral part of the system (contains the power supply for the whole thing)... I've got a couple surplus Adams (Ottawa, Ontario Canada) if anyone wants... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 15 15:48:23 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:48:23 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara><478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca><004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <4F157EFF-07F6-407A-BD9E-512E4D6B3014@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <008501c857c0$5a372580$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) > On Jan 15, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >>> It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in > >>> shipping that to Brazil :o( > >> Why not? That is real shipping, mate :) > > > > Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship > > something overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, > > don't now what. > > Tons of pain-in-the-butt paperwork. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > I shipped small items to Australia and Canada and USPS just wanted me to fill out what I was sending, to who it was going to, and its value (marked as gift so people would not pay customs duties). Not that much to fill out. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 15 15:47:55 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:47:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <4F157EFF-07F6-407A-BD9E-512E4D6B3014@neurotica.com> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <4F157EFF-07F6-407A-BD9E-512E4D6B3014@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship > > something overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, > > don't now what. > > Tons of pain-in-the-butt paperwork. It wasn't a hassle for me to ship an Altair to England. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 15 15:28:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:28:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WD1001 MFM controller wanted In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 14, 8 08:41:28 pm Message-ID: > > > > Hi > I was told by Tony that the 5Meg Tandy ( Radio Shack ) drive > box had a similar controller. FWIW, I havea 3rd party Cumana hard disk for the TRS80 Model 3/4. It contains 4 sections : A PSU (+5V, +12V) A standard ST412-interface hard disk. I forget the model A Western Digital controlelr card. I am not sure of the exact model, but it's very simialr to a WD1001, and may be that one. A Cumana-designed interface to the TRS-80. Just an address decoder. The WD board has been modified by the addition of a jumper wire to bring 5V ot a normally N/C pin on the host conenctor. That's used to power the address decoder board. AFAIK the firmware ROMs on that board (there's an 8X300-seires microcontrolelr there) are stnadard. This think uses the standard Radio Shack drivers, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 15 15:33:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:33:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals In-Reply-To: <011520080458.4363.478C3D8C0003754E0000110B22216128369B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> from "g-wright@att.net" at Jan 15, 8 04:58:53 am Message-ID: > Yes that is what I'm finding . The donors have more value than the > pieces I'm working on. > I suspect the most common machine to have that keyboard is either the TI99/4a or the HP85. I wouldn't suggest raiding either one for keyboard parts, but if you could find an HP85 where several of the custom chips have failed, it could be a sourve (mind you if you know of such a machine, I'd want the entire keyboard to make a keyboard for my 9915. It's electrically rhe same matric, just in a keyboard-only box, if you see what I mean, so an HP85 keybaord could be wired up). > Tony, Do you have one of these tools ??? and/or what it looks like I wish. I have the HP part number for it somewhere, but the Agilent partsfinder had never heard of it. I asusme it's a rod with a couple of carefully-designed slots in the end. You put the contacts into the slots and ues the tool to push them ionto the keyboard frame and PCB. Then solder them. If you don't have the tool, it's possible to grip the contacts carefully in long-nose pliers and wrok them, a bit at a time, into place. You then have to re-form th top edge of the contat. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jan 15 17:00:42 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:00:42 -0300 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals References: Message-ID: <00a701c857ca$7b60a240$02fea8c0@portajara> > machine, I'd want the entire keyboard to make a keyboard for my 9915. > It's electrically rhe same matric, just in a keyboard-only box, if you > see what I mean, so an HP85 keybaord could be wired up). I'd use a common PC keyboard and a small microcontroller :o) > I wish. I have the HP part number for it somewhere, but the Agilent > partsfinder had never heard of it. Is it on old hp catalogs? I have some :o) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 15 16:51:53 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:51:53 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <008501c857c0$5a372580$c600a8c0@game> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com><031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara><478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca><004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <4F157EFF-07F6-407A-BD9E-512E4D6B3014@neurotica.com> <008501c857c0$5a372580$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <8BE158B8-2A19-43A7-BAD4-68EEC2750C5E@neurotica.com> On Jan 15, 2008, at 4:48 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>>>> It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in >>>>> shipping that to Brazil :o( >>>> Why not? That is real shipping, mate :) >>> >>> Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship >>> something overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, >>> don't now what. >> >> Tons of pain-in-the-butt paperwork. > > I shipped small items to Australia and Canada and USPS just wanted > me to > fill out what I was sending, to who it was going to, and its value > (marked > as gift so people would not pay customs duties). Not that much to > fill out. That wasn't the case with FedEx a couple of years ago. It was so much trouble that I just gave up on shipping outside of the paranoid USA. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Tue Jan 15 16:56:14 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:26:14 +1030 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP Message-ID: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> OK, I'm building the bit-serial ALU for my 2N2/256 project. Though it sounds exceedingly elementary, one design variable I haven't been able to figure out is what supply voltage I should use. Does anybody know why the 7400-series TTL used +5V for Vcc? I've looked at the equivalent circuits for TTL and LSTTL. Maybe I'm missing something, but it's not immediately obvious to me why such circuits couldn't operate on, say, 4.5V or 6V. I understand the need for good regulation to maintain noise margin, but why in 1964 did Texas Instruments chose 5V in particular for TTL? Was it just an arbitrary choice, or is there a deeper issue? -Bobby From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 17:00:27 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:00:27 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <8BE158B8-2A19-43A7-BAD4-68EEC2750C5E@neurotica.com> References: <200801151801.m0FI0xSL051798@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478CF959.5080304@snowmoose.com> <031401c857b5$ac7b7bd0$0202a8c0@portajara> <478D0EB0.9000403@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c857bd$bf3ed2a0$02fea8c0@portajara> <4F157EFF-07F6-407A-BD9E-512E4D6B3014@neurotica.com> <008501c857c0$5a372580$c600a8c0@game> <8BE158B8-2A19-43A7-BAD4-68EEC2750C5E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801151500pd52d41gcc272ebf884d2831@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 15, 2008 2:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 15, 2008, at 4:48 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>>>> It could be five, but I doubt he would be interested in > >>>>> shipping that to Brazil :o( > >>>> Why not? That is real shipping, mate :) > >>> > >>> Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship > >>> something overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, > >>> don't now what. > >> > >> Tons of pain-in-the-butt paperwork. > > > > I shipped small items to Australia and Canada and USPS just wanted > > me to > > fill out what I was sending, to who it was going to, and its value > > (marked > > as gift so people would not pay customs duties). Not that much to > > fill out. > > That wasn't the case with FedEx a couple of years ago. It was so > much trouble that I just gave up on shipping outside of the paranoid > USA. > > > -Dave > Perhaps things have changed since your experience, but last year I did a LOT of foreign shipping with Fedex, UPS, and the USPS. In all cases, it was pretty easy to send stuff. I just had to deal with the strangely-formatted addresses (Japanese addresses were really hard, I recall, and Sweden threw me a few times) and fill in one extra web form (I was doing this online) for the customs stuff, which took basically no time. I've only had problems shipping internationally ONCE, when I was trying to send a bottle of flammable conformal coating to the Philippines and wasn't really sure about the procedure... had to order some special hazardous materials boxes, fill out lots of extra forms, and then drive it directly to the local distribution warehouse because the college post office didn't want to be accept hazardous materials. Basically, I've never had any problems with international shipping; don't overthink the customs forms, and most certainly don't overvalue the computer you're sending--avoid paying duty that way, and it's not worth that much anyway. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 15 17:30:40 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:30:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pasadena rescue update Message-ID: Because of the interest in this collection, I have decided to take on the Pasadena rescue into my inventory and auction it off. I've been told that the family of the deceased is not well-off. As such, I cannot in good faith broker a simple giveaway when the items could be sold to pay expenses. Here's what I expect to pick up: 1 Altair with a homebrewed front panel 1 Altair (regular 8800) 2 IMSAI 8080 machines 1 external 8-inch floppy drive 1 ADM3 or ADM3a terminal 3 or more IBM PCjrs, some with sidecars. Many components are unopened. I'll know more about these machines (like what's in the S100 chassis, if there are PCjr monitors) when I take custody of them. Due to my own storage problems[1], I will not be picking up any documentation that's not directly related to the above items. Once I have the machines, I will dispose of them within two weeks. My primary venue is Ebay. If you're interested in these items and don't want to deal with Ebay for whatever reason, please email me and we'll figure something out. [1] From my last two hauls, I was obligated to take a great deal of documentation that I cannot possibly catalog or distribute myself. I'm expecting one particular list member to come down to get some and I expect there to be a lot left over. The docs are mostly S100 in nature. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jan 15 18:30:57 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:30:57 -0300 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals References: <00a701c857ca$7b60a240$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <00e501c857d7$207f06c0$02fea8c0@portajara> People: I have some code (in basic for bascom) to make a PS2 keyboard spit ASCII data. If I publish the circuit (a microcontroller and 2 or 3 resistors) and the code, with the compiler, will it help you, keyboardless people, to fix your systems? I'm sorry I cannot give much more help, I have none of your classic systems :o) Greetz Alexandre From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 17:59:05 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:59:05 -0600 Subject: Atari 5200 store demo on Craigs Message-ID: <51ea77730801151559g6787809bh43dd08eaf572c91b@mail.gmail.com> Not mine, and probably overpriced, but might be of interest to the hardcore Atari types out there: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tag/538256249.html From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jan 15 18:40:24 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:40:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <478D2272.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080116004024.2412556C74@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by woodelf > > Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship something > > overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, don't now what. > Less profit margin??? > BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the > cleap daisy wheel printer? Yes.. Unreliable high-speed digital cassette and the power supply is in the *printer*! No printer, no computing for you! Cheers, Bryan From bob099 at centurytel.net Tue Jan 15 18:51:51 2008 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:51:51 -0600 Subject: AT&T Safari 3181 question Sigma Data QED Message-ID: <478D5527.30204@centurytel.net> A question about another unloved system. This machine says that there is no boot device. In the drive bay is a literal black box, labeled Sigma Data QED. No way to open it that I have found yet. Anyone have experience with these? Suggestions From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 15 19:15:09 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:15:09 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <20080116004024.2412556C74@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080116004024.2412556C74@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <478D5A9D.9080508@atarimuseum.com> To make it worse, the damned power supplies in the Adam printers are like a small scale EMP (Electro-magnet Pulse) Generator.... any media near it is bulk erased when you power on. To add insult to injury - the power plug is also proprietary. I love the Adam Computers for what they promised, but hate them for how they short changed everyone looking forward to them when they came out. Hence the 1983(?) cover of Videogaming & Computing Magazine that had a big red mushroom cloud with an Adam in the middle of it with the title "Adam Bomb" Curt Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by woodelf > >> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >> >>> Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship something >>> overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, don't now what. >>> >> Less profit margin??? >> BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the >> cleap daisy wheel printer? >> > > Yes.. Unreliable high-speed digital cassette and the power supply is > in the *printer*! No printer, no computing for you! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 19:16:03 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 5200 store demo on Craigs In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801151559g6787809bh43dd08eaf572c91b@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Jan 15, 2008 05:59:05 PM Message-ID: <200801160116.m0G1G31d010245@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Not mine, and probably overpriced, but might be of interest to the > hardcore Atari types out there: > > http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tag/538256249.html > Any idea if it uses the standard controllers or some heavy duty ones? It sounds cool, no idea if it is over priced or not. I do know I don't have the room or money. :^( Zane From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 15 19:19:37 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:19:37 -0500 Subject: Atari 5200 store demo on Craigs In-Reply-To: <200801160116.m0G1G31d010245@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200801160116.m0G1G31d010245@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <478D5BA9.6000603@atarimuseum.com> It has built in controllers that have a wiring harness that goes to a standard Atari DB15 connector that plugs into a console, so you can use those or unplug them and use standard 5200 controllers. I have a unit down in my arcade. Curt Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Not mine, and probably overpriced, but might be of interest to the >> hardcore Atari types out there: >> >> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tag/538256249.html >> >> > > Any idea if it uses the standard controllers or some heavy duty ones? It > sounds cool, no idea if it is over priced or not. I do know I don't have > the room or money. :^( > > Zane > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 15 19:29:26 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:29:26 -0500 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:04:59 MST." Message-ID: <200801160129.m0G1TQ3l023837@mwave.heeltoe.com> >> (that is the display which connected to 8/L's at Carleton college; they >> had a great extension to FOCAL called COLPAC which would plot to the >> display and do a vector font. They also had a joystick straight out >> of "lost in space" - a large ball with stick and a "button" bar at the >> top.) > >The one shown on page 1-3 of the below manual? >System_Maint_Apr70.pdf> yes, that's exactly it. as I recall the "button" was bright orange and the "stick" was silver. the colpac "snowball" game was killer. it still makes me laugh. I may have to recreate it just for yucks. That display produced nice sharp green lines. it was nice to look at. I remember once someone rigged up an 8mm camera and somehow had it grabbing one frame at a time with some sort of electromechanical stutter release. My guess is they made a movie, but I never saw the result. I bet it was great... -brad From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 15 19:40:43 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:40:43 -0600 Subject: Atari 5200 store demo on Craigs In-Reply-To: <478D5BA9.6000603@atarimuseum.com> References: <200801160116.m0G1G31d010245@onyx.spiritone.com> <478D5BA9.6000603@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801151740o255ffe29k132c1a8f193af74c@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 15, 2008 7:19 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It has built in controllers that have a wiring harness that goes to a > standard Atari DB15 connector that plugs into a console, so you can use > those or unplug them and use standard 5200 controllers. I have a unit > down in my arcade. About how large is the entire unit? The ad says 7' tall - how wide, how much floor space does it need? Of course this is something I absolutely don't need, shouldn't want, and have no room for, but I'm just askin', ya understand.... From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 15 19:54:29 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:54:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 5200 store demo on Craigs In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801151740o255ffe29k132c1a8f193af74c@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Jan 15, 2008 07:40:43 PM Message-ID: <200801160154.m0G1sUNF010934@onyx.spiritone.com> > About how large is the entire unit? The ad says 7' tall - how wide, > how much floor space does it need? > > Of course this is something I absolutely don't need, shouldn't want, > and have no room for, but I'm just askin', ya understand.... > You should also consider how much such a unit weighs. Zane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 20:02:51 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:02:51 -0800 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:26:14 +1030 > Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP > > OK, I'm building the bit-serial ALU for my 2N2/256 project. Though > it sounds exceedingly elementary, one design variable I haven't been > able to figure out is what supply voltage I should use. > > Does anybody know why the 7400-series TTL used +5V for Vcc? I've ---snip--- To make them plug compatable with DTL. Next! Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jan 15 20:12:01 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:12:01 +0000 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080116021201.GB7897@usap.gov> On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 03:21:57PM -0700, Richard wrote: > In reading some stupid web site today that claimed to have a canonical > list of "top 50 arguments of computing" (e-week? someplace I normally > ignore), they had the "DEC vs. IBM" argument in which they claimed > that AS/400 was created as a "VAX killer" by IBM. > > Is this really true? I never heard of an AS/400 described that way. I worked in a DEC/IBM environment from about 1984 through 1994 (with a few dabbles off-track here and there). We made cards for PDP-11s and VAXen (COMBOARDs) to speak IBM protocols like HASP, 3780, and SNA. I attended several DECUS symposia over the period, and read all the relevant trade rags of the day. With that background, I _do_ remember the AS/400 being pushed as a "VAX killer" in the late 1980s. Perhaps we saw more of that because we had customers with feet in both camps. > They also had some weird ideas about DEC vs. IBM networking described > in that argument, as if neither company supported TCP/IP until their > proprietary networks (DECnet and SNA) were forced to relinquish ground > to open protocols. > > OK, googling brings up the link. "Network World" is the culprit: > My recollection is that TCP/IP was very slow to penetrate DEC-only sites until Ethernet took over the desktop and TCP/IP crowded out also-rans like Banyan Vines, etc. (and Windows finally came with build-in TCP/IP support). Colleges and sites that had a high installed base of UNIX workstations did aggressively adopt TCP/IP, and did install it on VAX/VMS, for those places that weren't VAX/UNIX shops. I know our shop wasn't representative, but we used sync and async serial comms (Kermit or HASP or DECnet/DDCMP) to link our VAXen and MicroVAXen all the way through 'til the end. We never did have a single strand of Ethernet, nor pushed a single packet of TCP/IP anywhere - it was all "proprietary" protocols specifically because we didn't have to interoperate between any two vendors except DEC and IBM, and we happened to make our own interoperability gear. By 1994, most other "DEC shops" were already opening up, IIRC. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Jan-2008 at 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -15.0 F (-26.1 C) Windchill -35.9 F (-37.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.0 kts Grid 33 Barometer 687.2 mb (10358 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 15 20:16:32 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:16:32 -0600 Subject: N* HRAM 64K schematics, Parallel Port Schematics, and ZDOS info scans Message-ID: <478D6900.3080004@jbrain.com> I was finally able to scan a bunch of HRAM 64, Parallel Port for N* schematics and some ZDOS information into PDF today. As I no longer have a N*, I was wondering if someone here does N* and wants to own this technical information. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 15 21:23:53 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:23:53 -0500 Subject: Atari 5200 store demo on Craigs In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801151740o255ffe29k132c1a8f193af74c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200801160116.m0G1G31d010245@onyx.spiritone.com> <478D5BA9.6000603@atarimuseum.com> <51ea77730801151740o255ffe29k132c1a8f193af74c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <478D78C9.60700@atarimuseum.com> Its a big ass kiosk. Its 7' tall, 28" wide, 34" deep. It has 1" thick MDF laminated panels which weigh an absolute TON!!! The unit overall has to weigh close to 400lbs+ I've taken mine out to several shows, I actually dismantled the entire until, removed all of the air gun staples holding it together and replaced them with screws so I can take it apart for transport, you can see it here: http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/phillyclassic/phillyclassic3/DCP_0139.jpg Curt Jason T wrote: > On Jan 15, 2008 7:19 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> It has built in controllers that have a wiring harness that goes to a >> standard Atari DB15 connector that plugs into a console, so you can use >> those or unplug them and use standard 5200 controllers. I have a unit >> down in my arcade. >> > > About how large is the entire unit? The ad says 7' tall - how wide, > how much floor space does it need? > > Of course this is something I absolutely don't need, shouldn't want, > and have no room for, but I'm just askin', ya understand.... > > > From RBORSUK at COLOURFULL.COM Tue Jan 15 21:56:14 2008 From: RBORSUK at COLOURFULL.COM (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:56:14 -0500 Subject: Dec PDP 11/04 Message-ID: <940E47C6-CCF8-429B-B6B9-5E47060E74A7@COLOURFULL.COM> Hi All, I've decided to get rid of my Dec PDP 11/04 and I thought I would offer it up on the list first before hitting eBay (so No, it's not free). Here's a couple of pics: http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/vintage/1104_001.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/vintage/1104_002.jpg Here's the list of boards: m7859 m7647 m7847 m7856 sms fd 1100i You can pick up in Port Huron, MI. 48060 or I can ship it (naturally you pay for packing materials and shipping cost) or you can have your favorite craters and freighters come and get it. Please send all offers off list. Cash via paypal is the best but I would be willing to trade for a Data General Desktop Generation system or an Aviion. Thanks Rob ps. Yes I have the top cover for it. From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Tue Jan 15 22:02:35 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:32:35 +1030 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP Message-ID: <8FC99346-F1B7-4739-AA0B-DA373F5C4611@bigpond.net.au> > > Does anybody know why the 7400-series TTL used +5V for Vcc? I've > > ---snip--- > > To make them plug compatable with DTL. Next! > Dwight OK, if that's the case, then why 5V for DTL? -Bobby From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 15 23:03:08 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:03:08 -0800 Subject: The Wollongong Group References: <484370.45245.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478D900D.A4F02292@cs.ubc.ca> Chris M wrote: > --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > >> > (As I've said before on the list) there was > > at least one third-party producing > > > >> > a TCP/IP stack for VMS before DEC got around > > to it. > > > >> > > > >> CMU-IP from Carnegie Mellon? > > > > > > > > The implementation I was recalling was from the > > Wollongong Group (Univ. in > > > > Australia) (WIN/TCP I believe). > > > > > > TWG was a Silicon Valley company. > > > > Well that's funny, I don't where my mis-perception > > as to the origins originated > > but I think I've had it since way back when. > > (Somebody else ordered the > > software package - I just programmed with it). > > > Wollongong is a town in Australia, no? I was of the > impression that they were an Aussie company also. > They made a TCP/IP stack for DOS IINM, as part of a > package of sorts back in the day. > The town is a little south of Sydney, and there is a university. There are a couple of mentions of The Wollongong Group on google but I didn't find a company history or anything about it's origins or location. From jam at magic.com Wed Jan 16 00:13:44 2008 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:13:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) Message-ID: <200801160613.WAA26599@magellan.magic.com> > On 15/01/2008 17:37, James A. Markevitch wrote: > >> Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from the mid > >> 1960's that was made with VLSI components. > > > > IBM 360 (still being made today) > > Is it? The 360 itself is not, but the architecture is, and in multi-GHz parts. > > PDP-11 (LSI-11) > > Definitely not mid 1960s. The first PDP-11 appeared in 1970, and LSI-11 > came out in 1975! Well, the architecture was conceived in April 1969, I believe :-). Guess that's not quite mid 1960's. James Markevitch From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Jan 15 08:47:32 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:47:32 +0100 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c84d68$c4e94aa0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> <477BD908.1050000@gmail.com> <477CF2D3.3080002@garlic.com> <477E3A6E.4000301@gmail.com> <477F1C67.3080702@garlic.com> <477FE763.7070501@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801061104q468de66erbf3bdd095a21ba1b@mail.gmail.com> <47819896.9070002@ptdprolog.net> <575131af0801140838m2a520b87w5e53c5a15e0111c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <478CC784.10903@iais.fraunhofer.de> Dan Gahlinger schrieb: > I personally have seen cash machines crash that were using OS/2 (a very long time ago) > > it used to be every cash machine in the city I live in ran on OS/2, it was a "staple" > I thought this was widely known. > OS/2 ATMs were common here in the past. Ticket machines at airports also sometimes have/had OS/2 in it (e.g. Lufthansa use/used them here). > there were rumors that IBM was going to open source OS/2, but not sure what came of it, if anything. > Unfortunately, this rumor will unlikely become truth. Certain components, namely essential parts of the kernel, as well as many \os2\apps, mainly 16 bit stuff, are fully copyrighted by Microsoft and others. I have seen the kernel sources. It might be that this no longer holds for the 32 bit rewrite of OS/2 for PPC so this maybe can be open sourced. The question is what advantage is there for IBM to release it, though. IBM still makes money with OS/2, from old customers who still have to use it because of odd control software. We have an old backup system where the tape library mechanics is managed by an embedded PC with OS/2 on it (no TSM backup system!). OS/2 itself still sells as the eComStation product by Serenity Systems, so it is not a good idea to open-source it from this direction as well. -- Holger From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jan 15 16:22:50 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:22:50 -0500 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony Duell writes: >> Yes that is what I'm finding . The donors have more value than the >> pieces I'm working on. >> > > I suspect the most common machine to have that keyboard is either the > TI99/4a or the HP85. I wouldn't suggest raiding either one for keyboard > parts... Is the TI-99/4A so uncommon? At least here in the states, you can't hardly throw a rock without hitting one. Ok, maybe not that common... but my understanding is that TI basically flooded the market with these things in an attempt to win out against Commodore and Atari in the home computer market in the 80s... (Not that I love the idea of destroying any working "classic" computer for parts, it's just that if you're going to, you might as well make sure it's nothing anyone's going to miss...) - Josh From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jan 16 01:26:54 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:26:54 -0500 Subject: Odd DEC (?) item on e-bay. . . Message-ID: <8CA26284E04A685-12E0-328C@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> I've not seen these before, but then I live in the Q-bus world. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120210769260 Are these some sort of serial I/O connectors for use with either top-edge connectors, or in a backplane ? Just curious. . . Tim ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 16 03:19:58 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:19:58 -0000 Subject: AS/400 a "VAX killer"? In-Reply-To: <20080116021201.GB7897@usap.gov> Message-ID: <002b01c85820$f7f845a0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Ethan Dicks wrote: > My recollection is that TCP/IP was very slow to penetrate DEC-only > sites until Ethernet took over the desktop DECnet (Phase IV) was trivial to set up and very easy for a system manager to understand. You need an address which is an area plus a node number. Pick a name. Done. Suddenly now you can stick NODE:: in front of a filespec and pretty much do what you did before except the file exists on some other machine called NODE. With IP you had to have a rudimentary understanding of IP addressing and classes. All trivial if you've done it before or have someone to point out the obvious answers, but trickier than DECnet. So unless you needed interoperability with "stuff" there would have been no reason to consider IP. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 14/01/2008 17:39 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 16 03:32:17 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 01:32:17 -0800 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> Robert Nansel wrote: > > OK, I'm building the bit-serial ALU for my 2N2/256 project. Though > it sounds exceedingly elementary, one design variable I haven't been > able to figure out is what supply voltage I should use. > > Does anybody know why the 7400-series TTL used +5V for Vcc? I've > looked at the equivalent circuits for TTL and LSTTL. Maybe I'm > missing something, but it's not immediately obvious to me why such > circuits couldn't operate on, say, 4.5V or 6V. I understand the need > for good regulation to maintain noise margin, but why in 1964 did > Texas Instruments chose 5V in particular for TTL? Was it just an > arbitrary choice, or is there a deeper issue? (I sent a couple of messages regarding the origins of the 5V level to the list a few weeks ago, but I don't have a definitive historical answer as to such.) On the technical side though, the supply level is going to effect power consumption, hence operating temperature range, drive and loading factors, propagation speed due to stored charge (RC factors), switching thresholds/limits due to varying current thru an R into a transistor base, etc. At the electronic level, there are a lot of analog issues in digital design. Then of course there are junction breakdown voltages, some literature I have here suggests there isn't really a lot of spare room outside the specified operating voltages. Then there are edge-triggerred flip-flops which rely on the stored charge in some of the transistors for the edge-triggerring and which I suspect will start doing funny things outside the specs, again due to RC factors. (As mentioned in an earlier message) I don't know whether the 5V was an initial, somewhat-arbitrary design parameter from which other design factors followed, or if the opposite: a design factor which followed from other initial parameters. One guess is it was a minimum chosen to keep junction breakdown requirements and power dissipation low, while providing enough headroom for switching currents and adequate noise margins. Either way, once it has been set in the design, the above-mentioned device specs and characterisations are going to be determined and specified relative to the preferred supply level. Note that manuf. specs typically provide both absolute maximums (over which the device may be damaged), as well as operating max/min within which the other specs are guaranteed. The specs typically don't say that it won't actually work outside the operating range Fairchild databooks generally have quite a treatise about the functioning of the internals of the IC families at the beginning of the book which can make for interesting reading, TI books less so, in Nat Semi books it seems to be non-existent. A year or two ago there was a discussion on the list where we were testing a variety of 74x175's (albeit configured in an odd manner) for some PDP-8 front panel and were observing changing and idiosyncratic behaviour over a very narrow operating voltage range. I hope you're not looking to mimic TTL - you'll have trouble sourcing multi-emitter transistors in discrete form. (I know - it's outside your design constraint anyways.) More seriously, looking to TTL or standard DTL ICs for design would kind of chew up the transistor count very quickly. Is there a reason you're not looking to period/original discrete-component logic designs? From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Wed Jan 16 04:54:59 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:24:59 +1030 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP Message-ID: On Wed 16 Jan Brent Hilpert said: > ... > I hope you're not looking to mimic TTL - you'll have trouble sourcing > multi-emitter transistors in discrete form. (I know - it's outside > your design > constraint anyways.) More seriously, looking to TTL or standard DTL > ICs for > design would kind of chew up the transistor count very quickly. Is > there a > reason you're not looking to period/original discrete-component > logic designs? I am using discrete diode-transistor logic; I'm just trying to figure out what a sensible Vcc should be. I've seen discrete transistor logic designs with Vcc voltages from 3.6V clear on up to 90V, plus and minus (and often both). I suspect the higher voltages were more out of habit from vacuum tube days, but perhaps there were other reasons. Since I'll ultimately run this whole thing from batteries, I would naturally prefer to deal with 6V or 12V (or even 3V or 4V, depending on the battery chemistry), less the dropout voltage of my regulator. So far I've been able to keep everything in the ALU data path to a depth of two diode gates. I'm using the complementary outputs from three flip-flops for true and inverted versions of the A-word and B- word bit streams and Carry inputs to the adder. It takes more gates this way, 25 diodes but no inverters, versus 12 diodes with two inverters. From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 16 06:27:00 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:27:00 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <478D5A9D.9080508@atarimuseum.com> References: <20080116004024.2412556C74@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <17E3A48D1B68@dunfield.com> > To make it worse, the damned power supplies in the Adam printers are > like a small scale EMP (Electro-magnet Pulse) Generator.... any media > near it is bulk erased when you power on. To add insult to injury - > the power plug is also proprietary. I love the Adam Computers for > what they promised, but hate them for how they short changed everyone > looking forward to them when they came out. Hence the 1983(?) cover of > Videogaming & Computing Magazine that had a big red mushroom cloud with > an Adam in the middle of it with the title "Adam Bomb" So... while we are "Adam bashing", lets not forget those lovely preformatted cassette tapes - The system had no ability to format a tape, hence you had to use "official adam tapes", and once they got corrupted (frequently) they didn't work any more. Great way to sell tapes I suppose. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Wed Jan 16 07:03:35 2008 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:03:35 +0900 Subject: Ye old HP-85 "gummy" pinch roller problem. Message-ID: <1200488615.10086.1231544527@webmail.messagingengine.com> Just wanted to pose the question to the group in regards to the gummy pinch roller problem in the HP-85. Anyone know where I can find a commpatible, hard plasic pinch roller? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 16 07:21:27 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:21:27 +0000 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: References: <575366.45414.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801161321.27860.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 11 January 2008 15:36:05 dwight elvey wrote: > Although, a side subject, I like Jay, consider tube manufacture > relavent to some of my computing equipment. > Dwight I wonder how much computing equipment you could make from home-made triodes? Even a simple (say 4-bit) adder would be pretty impressive. Gordon From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 07:51:29 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:51:29 -0500 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <200801161321.27860.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <575366.45414.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <200801161321.27860.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0801160551p1cf20d31v4ccb854cd122d890@mail.gmail.com> I have an old Popular Electronics with instructions on making a one bit vacuum tube memory using a single tube, connected to the parallel port. Of limited utility of course, but interesting. On Jan 16, 2008 8:21 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Friday 11 January 2008 15:36:05 dwight elvey wrote: > > > Although, a side subject, I like Jay, consider tube manufacture > > relavent to some of my computing equipment. > > Dwight > > I wonder how much computing equipment you could make from home-made > triodes? > > Even a simple (say 4-bit) adder would be pretty impressive. > > Gordon > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 08:27:52 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:27:52 -0800 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <8FC99346-F1B7-4739-AA0B-DA373F5C4611@bigpond.net.au> References: <8FC99346-F1B7-4739-AA0B-DA373F5C4611@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:32:35 +1030 > Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP > >>> Does anybody know why the 7400-series TTL used +5V for Vcc? I've >> >> ---snip--- >> >> To make them plug compatable with DTL. Next! >> Dwight > > > OK, if that's the case, then why 5V for DTL? > Hi I'm sure it was mostly related to keeping the voltage low and still being able to get enough gain from transistors. As I recall DTL stacked at least 2 transistor plus a diode drop. More voltage and it would have used more power. Less voltage and it would have been too slow. In the DTL days, unlike today, the major factor in speed was the transistors them selves and not the interconnect. Today, the interconnect dominates and the smaller one can make the transistors, the shorter the interconnects. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jan 16 10:05:08 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:05:08 -0800 Subject: Craigslist- MicroVAX, DECstation, etc. Message-ID: <89C1566D-598D-480F-97FC-AC49F3F1EA9B@valleyimplants.com> Not me, but saw this mentioned elsewhere (from New York): http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/540478438.html > Date: 2008-01-15, 9:04PM EST > > > > I'm clearing out some of my collection of older Unix-based systems, > and at this point, I just want to be rid of them. I'm offering them > for $20 each. Any less than that, and I'll part them out, and > reclaim the gold. If you want more than $100 in gear, let me know, > and I'll work out a deal with you. > > Most of these systems all worked the last time I used them, and all > have CPU's, memory, and a disk. Some of the rest of them I never > got around to doing anything with, so I don't know for sure if they > have a disk. I also don't know for sure what the exact specs are -- > the model numbers don't really help, because I usually reconfigured > them when they arrived. Some of these systems take proprietary > keyboards and mice, which I may or may not have laying around. > Others (like Sun, for example) I have more keyboards than I know > what to do with. > > I do have ISOs of operating system installation CD's for most of > these systems, which I can burn onto DVD-R in trade for a bunch of > blanks. > > Here's a list of the machines that need homes: > > - DEC/Digital MicroVAX 2000; this one doesn't have a disk, so it'd > have to be net booted over a LAVc. > - Silicon Graphics Indy; I have two of these to move. > - DEC/Digital DEC 3000 Alpha workstation > - DEC/Digital Personal DECstation 5000/25 > - Sun SPARCstation 2; not sure if this one works anymore -- you can > have it for free > - Sun SPARCstation 4 > - Sun SPARCstation 5 > - HP B160L > - HP C240 > - IBM 43p > - Sun Ultra 10 > - Silicon Graphics Indigo2; a few Express graphics systems and a > couple Impact graphics systems. The R10k Max Impact with a lot of > memory is something I'd like to get $50 for. > > Non-workstation stuff that I want to move: > Chaparral Fibre Channel to SCSI bridge > Brocade Silkworm 2800 -- two carcasses, with one supply in each -- > one has the password set, and the other doesn't boot properly, and > I don't use Brocade, so I don't need them. > > I also have Fibre Channel and SCSI storage and accessories, which > would be more than the $20 each. I have 73GB SCSI drives in > UltraWide SCSI arrays, and I have 181GB FC drives in small > standalone enclosures. I do also have 1G/2G/4G Fibre Channel PCI > cards, cables, GBICs/SFPs, etc. If you need anything to do with FC/ > SCSI storage, let me know. > > Thanks, > Chris > > > > > * Location: North Tonawanda > * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other > commercial interests > From vze323vd at verizon.net Wed Jan 16 04:19:13 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (vze323vd) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:19:13 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <478D2272.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Dunno. There are so many ebay sellers not willing to ship something > > overseas...I think there must be something impeding them, don't > now what. > Less profit margin??? > BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the > cleap daisy wheel printer? > Yes. It had a high speed cassette drive on it. The printer was also the power supply for the whole system. Greg Manuel From vze323vd at verizon.net Wed Jan 16 04:23:12 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (vze323vd) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:23:12 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <200801152131.m0FLVHE8091233@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > > > > BTW was the Adam the computer system with the cassete I/O and the > > > cleap daisy wheel printer? > > > > Block-structured cassette...Very interesting design, reminds me of > > DECtape (in the logical sense). > > And the "cheap printer" is an integral part of the system (contains the > power supply for the whole thing)... > > I've got a couple surplus Adams (Ottawa, Ontario Canada) if anyone > wants... > > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > Hi Dave, I would be interested. How much do you want for one? Could you also give me an idea what the shipping would to Norwood, PA USA 19074? Thank you, Greg Manuel From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jan 16 06:53:02 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:53:02 -0500 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP Message-ID: <0JUQ00L6HMG3R6M2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP > From: Robert Nansel > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:24:59 +1030 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Wed 16 Jan Brent Hilpert said: > >> ... >> I hope you're not looking to mimic TTL - you'll have trouble sourcing >> multi-emitter transistors in discrete form. (I know - it's outside >> your design >> constraint anyways.) More seriously, looking to TTL or standard DTL >> ICs for >> design would kind of chew up the transistor count very quickly. Is >> there a >> reason you're not looking to period/original discrete-component >> logic designs? > >I am using discrete diode-transistor logic; I'm just trying to >figure out what a sensible Vcc should be. I've seen discrete >transistor logic designs with Vcc voltages from 3.6V clear on up to >90V, plus and minus (and often both). I suspect the higher voltages >were more out of habit from vacuum tube days, but perhaps there were >other reasons. More in the realm of other reasons. Transistors of the day could not switch much current so I^2R ruled where higher voltage at the current they could switch was used to get enough power. This was balanced against device breakdown voltages. Other factors that are to be considered is higher voltages allow larger signal swings for better noise immunity at the cost of speed (R*C). >Since I'll ultimately run this whole thing from batteries, I would >naturally prefer to deal with 6V or 12V (or even 3V or 4V, depending >on the battery chemistry), less the dropout voltage of my >regulator. Forget batteries. The voltage stability will be important and as you get enough powered elements you'll find that all those milliamps start to pile up to amps, potentially lots of them. I'd stick to 5V for interface to current parts where needed but you might find time to look at old machines and their design. One of the things done was -V to reverse bias transistors to help with stored charge for faster switching. The -V was in the range of -3 to -10V. The most recent of transistor machines like the PDP-8 (link-8 too as well as early DEC modules and the TX2 machine) would be an example to look at. FYI: the really ond machines used PNP transistors as the Germainium technology was better able to make those, that only means all the votages are "upside down" compared to what we currently expect. >So far I've been able to keep everything in the ALU data path to a >depth of two diode gates. I'm using the complementary outputs from >three flip-flops for true and inverted versions of the A-word and B- >word bit streams and Carry inputs to the adder. It takes more gates >this way, 25 diodes but no inverters, versus 12 diodes with two >inverters. Watch fanout, that is output of the FF being loaded with enough current sinks to inhibit operation or make for lousy noise immuunity. Many designs used enough inverters to avoid needing buffers, again a balanacing act. Allison From escherck at tech-crete.com Tue Jan 15 14:54:30 2008 From: escherck at tech-crete.com (Ernie Scherck) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:54:30 -0800 Subject: soroc 130 Message-ID: <000001c8585b$e67b07f0$6501a8c0@ERNIE> Hi Joe, is see this is an old thread, but will try it anyway. We are still using a SOROC 130 terminal in our plant, in use since 1983, but feeling a little tired. You indicated you had a 130 terminal? Interested in selling it or do you know of anyone who might have one for sale? Ernie Scherck AScT Tech-Crete Processors Ltd. 2930 13th Ave SW / PO Box 640 Salmon Arm, BC, Canada, V1E 4N7 Ph (250) 832-9705 Fax (250)832-9707 Email: escherck at tech-crete.com From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 16 12:00:59 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:00:59 -0600 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <17E3A48D1B68@dunfield.com> References: <20080116004024.2412556C74@mail.wordstock.com> <17E3A48D1B68@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <478E465B.4020209@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > So... while we are "Adam bashing", lets not forget those lovely preformatted > cassette tapes - The system had no ability to format a tape, hence you had > to use "official adam tapes", and once they got corrupted (frequently) they > didn't work any more. Great way to sell tapes I suppose. Is there *any* way to reformat these tapes, or are they all doomed? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 16 00:07:59 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 01:07:59 -0500 Subject: Coleco Adam system available In-Reply-To: References: <200801152131.m0FLVHE8091233@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200801161812.m0GICNJu008772@keith.ezwind.net> > > I've got a couple surplus Adams (Ottawa, Ontario Canada) if anyone > > wants... > I would be interested. How much do you want for one? Could you also give me > an idea what the shipping would to ... I've had a couple of calls on these ... just to clairify: It's probably best if both units go together, because: - One is a tapeless version - apparently Coleco sold a few of these as "smart typewriters" - The other one has a note on it that the expansion connector does not work. - I'll have to check, but I may only have one good condition keyboard for them. It's my thought that someone could easily make one really nice unit, and one "working parts machine" from the two of them. I'd also like to unload an extra printer (in addition to the two that go with the units). So preference is given to anyone who wants to haul the lot away. (Free assuming I have to do little to no work) I'll consider shipping, but please don't ask me unless you are really and seriously interested - I'll have to essentially pack the machines to get the weight and dimensions in order go get shipping quotes. Given the amount of material, it's not likely to be super cheap. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jan 16 12:16:30 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:16:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <478E465B.4020209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <542109.55934.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > So... while we are "Adam bashing", lets not forget > those lovely preformatted > > cassette tapes - The system had no ability to > format a tape, hence you had > > to use "official adam tapes", and once they got > corrupted (frequently) they > > didn't work any more. Great way to sell tapes I > suppose. > > Is there *any* way to reformat these tapes, or are > they all doomed? Well, sorta. You need one good formatted tape to start off with, and then some blanks. Basically, all you have to do is drill extra holes in a regular 60 minute audio cassette so that it will fit into the Adam, then either drill holes in your formatted blank, or transfer the tape into a normal audio cassette shell (so it fits into a regular tape deck). Then, use a dual well audio cassette deck and copy the Adam formatted blank tape onto the blank audio tape. I've actually done this before, and gotten it to work. Of course, a bigger problem is the fact that the rubber rollers in those stupid "Digital Data Pack" tape drives are have mostly turned to goo by now. -Ian From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jan 16 12:36:36 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:36:36 -0600 Subject: Craigslist- MicroVAX, DECstation, etc. In-Reply-To: <89C1566D-598D-480F-97FC-AC49F3F1EA9B@valleyimplants.com> References: <89C1566D-598D-480F-97FC-AC49F3F1EA9B@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <478E4EB4.5090904@mdrconsult.com> There can't be too many people named Chris in Buffalo who collect old Unix gear and have an amazing array of install media and software for them. If this is who I think it is, he's legit and very easy to deal with. I've bought both equipment and media from him. Doc Scott Quinn wrote: > Not me, but saw this mentioned elsewhere (from New York): > http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/540478438.html > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 16 12:48:16 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:48:16 -0800 Subject: Craigslist- MicroVAX, DECstation, etc. In-Reply-To: <89C1566D-598D-480F-97FC-AC49F3F1EA9B@valleyimplants.com> References: <89C1566D-598D-480F-97FC-AC49F3F1EA9B@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: Actually the non-DEC machines on this list are the best. While slow by todays standards, a Sparc 5 is a very nice platform for OpenBSD. If I was local, I'd be checking out all the storage stuff, now that's what would be nice to hang off my VMS box! :^) The best use for that VAXstation 2000 is a dedicated disk formater. For anyone that is in the area and still using MFM drives, it is worth picking up for just that reason, as the disk formatting routines are in ROM on that (I've even used one with bad RAM to format a drive). Zane At 8:05 AM -0800 1/16/08, Scott Quinn wrote: >Not me, but saw this mentioned elsewhere (from New York): >http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/540478438.html > >>Date: 2008-01-15, 9:04PM EST >> >> >> >>I'm clearing out some of my collection of older Unix-based systems, >>and at this point, I just want to be rid of them. I'm offering them >>for $20 each. Any less than that, and I'll part them out, and >>reclaim the gold. If you want more than $100 in gear, let me know, >>and I'll work out a deal with you. >> >>Most of these systems all worked the last time I used them, and all >>have CPU's, memory, and a disk. Some of the rest of them I never >>got around to doing anything with, so I don't know for sure if they >>have a disk. I also don't know for sure what the exact specs are -- >>the model numbers don't really help, because I usually reconfigured >>them when they arrived. Some of these systems take proprietary >>keyboards and mice, which I may or may not have laying around. >>Others (like Sun, for example) I have more keyboards than I know >>what to do with. >> >>I do have ISOs of operating system installation CD's for most of >>these systems, which I can burn onto DVD-R in trade for a bunch of >>blanks. >> >>Here's a list of the machines that need homes: >> >>- DEC/Digital MicroVAX 2000; this one doesn't have a disk, so it'd >>have to be net booted over a LAVc. >>- Silicon Graphics Indy; I have two of these to move. >>- DEC/Digital DEC 3000 Alpha workstation >>- DEC/Digital Personal DECstation 5000/25 >>- Sun SPARCstation 2; not sure if this one works anymore -- you can >>have it for free >>- Sun SPARCstation 4 >>- Sun SPARCstation 5 >>- HP B160L >>- HP C240 >>- IBM 43p >>- Sun Ultra 10 >>- Silicon Graphics Indigo2; a few Express graphics systems and a >>couple Impact graphics systems. The R10k Max Impact with a lot of >>memory is something I'd like to get $50 for. >> >>Non-workstation stuff that I want to move: >>Chaparral Fibre Channel to SCSI bridge >>Brocade Silkworm 2800 -- two carcasses, with one supply in each -- >>one has the password set, and the other doesn't boot properly, and >>I don't use Brocade, so I don't need them. >> >>I also have Fibre Channel and SCSI storage and accessories, which >>would be more than the $20 each. I have 73GB SCSI drives in >>UltraWide SCSI arrays, and I have 181GB FC drives in small >>standalone enclosures. I do also have 1G/2G/4G Fibre Channel PCI >>cards, cables, GBICs/SFPs, etc. If you need anything to do with >>FC/SCSI storage, let me know. >> >>Thanks, >>Chris >> >> >> >> >> * Location: North Tonawanda >> * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other >>commercial interests -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 13:40:10 2008 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:40:10 -0800 Subject: Coleco Adam system available (Jason T) In-Reply-To: <542109.55934.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <478E465B.4020209@oldskool.org> <542109.55934.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090801161140x5638be7el7ff02eb89b5d8f67@mail.gmail.com> another way u can do it is to go to ecoleco.com For a Buck ($1) each you can have one original Loran (brand) center directory Loran Digital Datapack originally programmed for use with software (SmartLetters & Forms, Recipe Filer, Flashcard Maker, or other). These tapes are new, sealed, and you can actually run the programs on the Coleco Adam Computer just like they come. However, if you just want to use them as blank datapacks then you can easily initialize and reset the Directory using File Manager or other software utilities file manager 3.0 is 7 dollars i have delt with theese guys before without a problem Chris On 1/16/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > --- Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > So... while we are "Adam bashing", lets not forget > > those lovely preformatted > > > cassette tapes - The system had no ability to > > format a tape, hence you had > > > to use "official adam tapes", and once they got > > corrupted (frequently) they > > > didn't work any more. Great way to sell tapes I > > suppose. > > > > Is there *any* way to reformat these tapes, or are > > they all doomed? > > Well, sorta. You need one good formatted tape to start > off with, and then some blanks. Basically, all you > have to do is drill extra holes in a regular 60 minute > audio cassette so that it will fit into the Adam, then > either drill holes in your formatted blank, or > transfer the tape into a normal audio cassette shell > (so it fits into a regular tape deck). Then, use a > dual well audio cassette deck and copy the Adam > formatted blank tape onto the blank audio tape. I've > actually done this before, and gotten it to work. > > Of course, a bigger problem is the fact that the > rubber rollers in those stupid "Digital Data Pack" > tape drives are have mostly turned to goo by now. > > -Ian > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 16 14:47:50 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:47:50 -0500 Subject: Craigslist- MicroVAX, DECstation, etc. In-Reply-To: <478E4EB4.5090904@mdrconsult.com> References: <89C1566D-598D-480F-97FC-AC49F3F1EA9B@valleyimplants.com> <478E4EB4.5090904@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <26A35D9C-63BC-488F-B26F-4E4FCCBD9748@neurotica.com> It's gotta be him. My company bought some FC gear from him a few months ago. He's a stand-up guy. -Dave On Jan 16, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > There can't be too many people named Chris in Buffalo who collect > old Unix gear and have an amazing array of install media and > software for them. If this is who I think it is, he's legit and > very easy to deal with. I've bought both equipment and media from > him. > > > Doc > > Scott Quinn wrote: >> Not me, but saw this mentioned elsewhere (from New York): >> http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/540478438.html > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 16 15:12:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:12:33 -0800 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <200801161800.m0GI0Cm4068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801161800.m0GI0Cm4068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <478E02C1.15452.1C929DE8@cclist.sydex.com> From: dwight elvey > More voltage and it would have used more power. Less > voltage and it would have been too slow. In the DTL days, > unlike today, the major factor in speed was the transistors > them selves and not the interconnect. Today, the interconnect > dominates and the smaller one can make the transistors, > the shorter the interconnects. I've got a brief Moto app note here from the late 60's that essentially says that 7400/5400 TTL could be run from Vcc as high as +7, so long as V(IH) was not allowed to go any higher than +5. The term "exceptional circumstances" is used, meaning, I suppose, where better noise immunity or more speed is required. Since this is contemporary with 5400/7400 SSI, I don't know if it could be carried over to more recent MSI/LSI TTL circuits. RTL had a much wider supply range, IIRC. FWIW, Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Wed Jan 16 16:11:32 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:11:32 +0000 Subject: Ye old HP-85 "gummy" pinch roller problem. In-Reply-To: <1200488615.10086.1231544527@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1200488615.10086.1231544527@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 16 Jan 2008, at 13:03, David Vohs wrote: > Just wanted to pose the question to the group in regards to the gummy > pinch roller problem in the HP-85. > > Anyone know where I can find a commpatible, hard plasic pinch roller? > > The usual solution is to strip off all the old rubber from the capstan and fit a small piece of polypropolyene flexable piping over and glue in place. The website following gives an excellent description http://www.voidware.com/calcs/hp85rep.htm roger From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Jan 16 17:07:25 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:07:25 -0500 Subject: Macintosh Color Classics Message-ID: <084E01F4-3A0F-4213-AD19-A7948CD11C9C@xlisper.com> I have a couple of Macintosh Color Classics I'd like to find a home for. As far as I know, they both work. One has been upgraded with a faster system board and one has a IIe card in it. I also have the cable and external 5.25" drive to go with the IIe card. Both machines come with a keyboard and mouse. The catch is, I'm not really interested in packing and shipping them. I'd first like to see if anyone is willing to come pick them up. I'm in Bedford, NH 03110 and would be willing to drive a bit to meet someone if that is necessary. Anyone interested? David Betz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 16 17:00:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:00:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals In-Reply-To: <00a701c857ca$7b60a240$02fea8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jan 15, 8 08:00:42 pm Message-ID: > > > machine, I'd want the entire keyboard to make a keyboard for my 9915. > > It's electrically rhe same matric, just in a keyboard-only box, if you > > see what I mean, so an HP85 keybaord could be wired up). > > I'd use a common PC keyboard and a small microcontroller :o) Good luck.. The 9915 keyboard interface is for a matrix-of-switches dumb keyboard. I don't know how fast it scans, a microcontorller might be able to keep up. The main prolem is that it's not at TTL levels (I think it's at 6V CMOS levels). In any case, given a keyboard using individual switches (as opposed to a membrane or anything like that), I'd probably just re-wire the switch connections and eliminate 2 microcontrollers and associated components. > > > I wish. I have the HP part number for it somewhere, but the Agilent > > partsfinder had never heard of it. > > Is it on old hp catalogs? I have some :o) I doutb it. It's mentioned in the HP85 service manual (available on the MoHPC CD-ROM set), for example. It's not the sort of thing generally advertised to customers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 16 16:56:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:56:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals In-Reply-To: from "Joshua Alexander Dersch" at Jan 15, 8 05:22:50 pm Message-ID: > Is the TI-99/4A so uncommon? At least here in the states, you can't hardly THey're not that common across the Pond. But certainly not the rarest machine around either. > throw a rock without hitting one. Ok, maybe not that common... but my > understanding is that TI basically flooded the market with these things in > an attempt to win out against Commodore and Atari in the home computer > market in the 80s... > > > (Not that I love the idea of destroying any working "classic" computer for > parts, it's just that if you're going to, you might as well make sure it's > nothing anyone's going to miss...) Agreed. I don't like raiding any classic computer hardware for parts, but then again, Id be prepared to raid a common home computer in order to restore some rare machine or peripheral. Hence my list of machines that I've come across using this keyoard mechanism, there might be something on there that you have anexcessive number of and would be prepared to sacrifice. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 16 17:10:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:10:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: <200801160613.WAA26599@magellan.magic.com> from "James A. Markevitch" at Jan 15, 8 10:13:44 pm Message-ID: > > > PDP-11 (LSI-11) > > > > Definitely not mid 1960s. The first PDP-11 appeared in 1970, and LSI-11 > > came out in 1975! > > Well, the architecture was conceived in April 1969, I believe :-). Guess > that's not quite mid 1960's. I wonder when the Philips P800 architecture was desinged. IIRC the P850 was first sold in 1970, so presumably the design is the end-of-the-60's. That architecture was implemented in simple TTL (P850, P855), in Philips' own itslice chips (SPALU -- Scratch Pad and Artihmetic Logic Unit, in the P851), AMD2900 bitslice (P854) and I don't know if it was ever sold, but I seem to have a single-chip LSI version of it too (P853???). -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jan 16 18:33:23 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:33:23 -0300 Subject: Keybard repair help. Older terminals References: Message-ID: <02e801c858a0$97f051e0$02fea8c0@portajara> > Good luck.. The 9915 keyboard interface is for a matrix-of-switches dumb > keyboard. I don't know how fast it scans, a microcontorller might be able > to keep up. The main prolem is that it's not at TTL levels (I think it's > at 6V CMOS levels). Tony, as fast as it could be, just an interrupt onto the first (or in all) of the columns/lines and you can scan the entire matrix in sync with a microcontroller. Thats what I did in a MSX keyboard converter. And it can be done - as far as I know - to any old microcomputer avaiable It isn't just a matter of rewiring switches - but the praticity of using any PS2 keyboard - and better - the best keyboards you can find. I hear someone shouting "IBM MODEL M" from way behind :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre In a "hardware hacker" day :oD From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 16 17:49:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:49:46 -0700 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478E981A.9070106@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder when the Philips P800 architecture was desinged. IIRC the P850 > was first sold in 1970, so presumably the design is the end-of-the-60's. > > That architecture was implemented in simple TTL (P850, P855), in Philips' > own itslice chips (SPALU -- Scratch Pad and Artihmetic Logic Unit, in the > P851), AMD2900 bitslice (P854) and I don't know if it was ever sold, but > I seem to have a single-chip LSI version of it too (P853???). > > -tony I found a web link here, but this is the first time I have heard of a P800. http://www.theoengel.nl/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 18:03:57 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:03:57 -0800 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <478E02C1.15452.1C929DE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801161800.m0GI0Cm4068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> <478E02C1.15452.1C929DE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com ---snip--- > > RTL had a much wider supply range, IIRC. > > FWIW, > Chuck > Hi Chuck The RTL I played with was quite fussy about voltage. It wanted 3.6V. 4V or more and it didn'y work. I made a digal dice ( that I still have someplace ) It used JK's but I forget what I used for an oscillator. I had it in one of those clear plastic picture cubes and used mercury switches to detect the roll. A 9V with something to regulate ( forget what ). It went through the 9V battery faster than one could play a game of monopoly so it wasn't much use. Display was small LEDs. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 18:09:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:09:10 -0800 Subject: WD1001 MFM controller wanted In-Reply-To: References: from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> >> Hi >> I was told by Tony that the 5Meg Tandy ( Radio Shack ) drive >> box had a similar controller. > > FWIW, I havea 3rd party Cumana hard disk for the TRS80 Model 3/4. It > contains 4 sections : > > A PSU (+5V, +12V) > A standard ST412-interface hard disk. I forget the model > A Western Digital controlelr card. I am not sure of the exact model, but > it's very simialr to a WD1001, and may be that one. > A Cumana-designed interface to the TRS-80. Just an address decoder. > > The WD board has been modified by the addition of a jumper wire to bring > 5V ot a normally N/C pin on the host conenctor. That's used to power the > address decoder board. AFAIK the firmware ROMs on that board (there's an > 8X300-seires microcontrolelr there) are stnadard. > > This think uses the standard Radio Shack drivers, etc. Hi Tony If it worked with the TRS, it at least matched the same code and would work in place of a WD1001. It might be, considering it used and external board to handle the address decode. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 16 18:30:35 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:30:35 -0700 Subject: Macintosh Color Classics In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:07:25 -0500. <084E01F4-3A0F-4213-AD19-A7948CD11C9C@xlisper.com> Message-ID: In article <084E01F4-3A0F-4213-AD19-A7948CD11C9C at xlisper.com>, David Betz writes: > in Bedford, NH 03110 and would be willing to drive a bit to meet > someone if that is necessary. > > Anyone interested? Gee, its only a 36 hour drive.... :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 16 18:49:41 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:49:41 -0500 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200801161949.41947.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 16 January 2008 04:32, Brent Hilpert wrote: (Snip) > Either way, once it has been set in the design, the above-mentioned device > specs and characterisations are going to be determined and specified > relative to the preferred supply level. Note that manuf. specs typically > provide both absolute maximums (over which the device may be damaged), as > well as operating max/min within which the other specs are guaranteed. The > specs typically don't say that it won't actually work outside the operating > range Yup. TTL for the most part I can remember as having a 7V maximum supply voltage, and a 5.5V maximum on the inputs. I've seen projects, probably in places like Popular Electronics or similar, that used either three or four D cells to run a couple of chips, but it wasn't anything particularly complicated or fast. Newer series with CMOS in there seems to be edging downwards on those maximums. > Fairchild databooks generally have quite a treatise about the functioning > of the internals of the IC families at the beginning of the book which can > make for interesting reading, TI books less so, in Nat Semi books it seems > to be non-existent. Interesting. I have some Fairchild databooks which I'll probably be putting online sometime soon, I think a National and definitely a TI in paper form here, and I'd not really dug into them to the extent that I'd noticed that difference. > A year or two ago there was a discussion on the list where we were testing > a variety of 74x175's (albeit configured in an odd manner) for some PDP-8 > front panel and were observing changing and idiosyncratic behaviour over a > very narrow operating voltage range. Do you recall offhand what sorts of changes in behavior was being discussed? > I hope you're not looking to mimic TTL - you'll have trouble sourcing > multi-emitter transistors in discrete form. I seem to recall some wikipedia page referring to those as if they ever were actually available. Not that I could say with any certainty that they weren't, and if anybody knows otherwise please feel free to point me toward info, but I've never seen them, or heard of them as discrete devices at all. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 16 18:51:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:51:47 -0500 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <200801161321.27860.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <200801161321.27860.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200801161951.48059.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 16 January 2008 08:21, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Friday 11 January 2008 15:36:05 dwight elvey wrote: > > Although, a side subject, I like Jay, consider tube manufacture > > relavent to some of my computing equipment. > > Dwight > > I wonder how much computing equipment you could make from home-made > triodes? > > Even a simple (say 4-bit) adder would be pretty impressive. In power as well. It'd be darn-near EMP-proof, though. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 16 19:01:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:01:49 -0500 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: <478E981A.9070106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <478E981A.9070106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200801162001.49905.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 16 January 2008 18:49, woodelf wrote: > I found a web link here, but this is the first time I have heard of a P800. > http://www.theoengel.nl/ That seems to happen to me a lot in here... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 16 20:50:43 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:50:43 -0600 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) In-Reply-To: <478D1B4F.1030102@gmail.com> References: <200801151737.JAA17238@magellan.magic.com> <478D141B.9000104@dunnington.plus.com> <478D1B4F.1030102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <478EC283.8040109@brutman.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 15/01/2008 17:37, James A. Markevitch wrote: >>>> Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure from >>>> the mid >>>> 1960's that was made with VLSI components. >>> >>> IBM 360 (still being made today) >> >> Is it? > > Not really. It's descendants are still being made. IBM will happily > make you a part for any of their machines, no matter how old, if you pay > enough money. They still have the manufacturer's specs for all of it. > > Peace... Sridhar > > That might have been true in a much older version of IBM. I don't think is anywhere near true today. Hardware and software comes in and out of support much quicker now, and IBM does not do this. Mike From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 22:18:28 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:18:28 -0600 Subject: FREE: Compaq Contura 4/25cx laptop Message-ID: <51ea77730801162018n3dabd399qebcea8bee7369009@mail.gmail.com> It powers on, doesn't see the internal hard drive (or there isn't on there,) 12mb, modem installed, floppy drive works, serial port works. Don't have the A/C adaptor but works off the Toshiba adaptor I had lying around. Not particularly classic, but it kills me to throw even this one out. So if anyone needs yet another serial terminal.... Free + shipping from 60074. -- j From dbwood at kc.rr.com Wed Jan 16 23:55:06 2008 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:55:06 -0600 Subject: Datasheet for Sharp LR35902 CPU References: <575366.45414.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <200801161321.27860.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <0dea01c858cd$83586f10$647ba8c0@epicis> Would anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of the Sharp LR35902 CPU datasheet? It's the processor used in GameBoy consoles. A PDF version would be great. TIA. Douglas Wood From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 16 18:00:24 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:00:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: copying a GAL/PAL Message-ID: <939429.86356.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> can someone provide the specifics? I keep getting badgered LOL ever since I announced I own an XT-IDE card. The one I have is pretty simple, just some OTS logic, but for the PAL (or is it a GAL - damn wish I had a GAL-PAL LOLOLOLOLOL). Therefore I need to have a way to duplicate such, so at least I can provide a path for those that want such a card. Of course this will involved desoldering. Not that big a deal, I feel I can lay the component side in a tray filled with cool water (with even a fish pump to course fluid past the pins) and go to town. If I don't need to remove the chip, please let me know. Gracias Amigos! Then again if anyone can provide a known working schematic/plan for such a card, that would be all the better. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From mikedg63 at mybluelight.com Wed Jan 16 19:54:09 2008 From: mikedg63 at mybluelight.com (Mike G) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 01:54:09 GMT Subject: FOR SALE: TI-99/4A EXPANSION SYSTEM w/ SPEECH, RS232, TRIPLETECH Message-ID: <20080116.175409.19702.1@webmail30.vgs.untd.com> FOR SALE: TI-99/4A EXPANSION SYSTEM w/ SPEECH, RS232, TRIPLETECH Is this still for sale? Thanks _____________________________________________________________ Print your own high quality pictures with great photo paper! Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.mybluelight.com/TGL2321/fc/Ioyw6i51vQRQR4EqfExwqG159DkOqwa8BE3LkooTct2gpePZUpvXry/ From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Jan 17 03:19:01 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:19:01 -0000 Subject: Vol 53, Issue 32 - "gummy" pinch roller problem References: <200801161800.m0GI0Cm0068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003801c858e9$ffbade00$911ca8c0@mss.local> One thing that has worked for mee in the past is to replace the "gummy" rubber with black adhesive lined heatshrink tubing. Measure the old roller diameter, remove old rubber down to metal part, carefuly shrink on a piece of new heatshrink. Oversize heatshring builds up thickness quickely, sizes close to the diameter do so more slowly. With *care* it can be turned to the correct diameter although not by much, you need to be close to finished size. I used adhesive lined for the first layer on the metal core, susequent layers stick to each other quite well. Mike > > Message: 19 > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:03:35 +0900 > From: "David Vohs" > Subject: Ye old HP-85 "gummy" pinch roller problem. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <1200488615.10086.1231544527 at webmail.messagingengine.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Just wanted to pose the question to the group in regards to the gummy > pinch roller problem in the HP-85. > > Anyone know where I can find a commpatible, hard plasic pinch roller? > > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jan 17 04:09:30 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:09:30 +0000 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) In-Reply-To: <200801161800.m0GI0CmC068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801161800.m0GI0CmC068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 16 Jan, 2008, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:13:44 -0800 (PST) > From: "James A. Markevitch" > Subject: Re: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on > e-bay. . .) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200801160613.WAA26599 at magellan.magic.com> > >> On 15/01/2008 17:37, James A. Markevitch wrote: >>>> Chuckles at the typo.Is the PDP-8 the only classic architecure >>>> from the mid >>>> 1960's that was made with VLSI components. >>> >>> IBM 360 (still being made today) >> >> Is it? > > The 360 itself is not, but the architecture is, and in multi-GHz > parts. > >>> PDP-11 (LSI-11) >> >> Definitely not mid 1960s. The first PDP-11 appeared in 1970, and >> LSI-11 >> came out in 1975! > > Well, the architecture was conceived in April 1969, I believe :-). > Guess > that's not quite mid 1960's. It is not normal to consider conception dates, neither with computers nor babies. I don't go calling my ICT 1301 a late '50s computer just because it was conceived in 1959, nor because thats when some of the technical drawings date from. Its an early '60s machine because the first one shipped in 1962, and you could even argue about that as it was actually an extra prototype which the University of London pressed ICT into supplying because otherwise there would be no undergraduate intake in 1962 as they were committed to it, having had the computer on order for a LONG time. As the factory prototypes were refined, engineers would be sent out to also modify the university's machine. At a meeting of the Computer Conservation Society, the chap in charge of the software said it was the only computer which ICT/ICT ever shipped where the system software and libraries were ready before the first machine shipped. Most of it had been hand executed to verify it apart from the real time aspects, which had been the big hold up, particularly the routine which punched one card whilst reading six cards and printing one line. For months they had been travelling from London to Coventry every night to test the next amendment of version one and failing whilst some of the programmers had been putting together a version two in their spare time. One night they rang their manager, waking him in the early hours. They said they were not getting anywhere with version one, and asked for permission to try version two. This was grudgingly given as a sop to frustration. It worked first time, and version one was abandoned and at last all the software was ready. Roger Holmes. Current custodian of the University of London machine, having bought the 200,000 pound machine for 150 pounds in 1976. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 17 09:30:43 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:30:43 -0800 Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > On Wednesday 16 January 2008 08:21, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> On Friday 11 January 2008 15:36:05 dwight elvey wrote: >>> Although, a side subject, I like Jay, consider tube manufacture >>> relavent to some of my computing equipment. >>> Dwight >> >> I wonder how much computing equipment you could make from home-made >> triodes? >> >> Even a simple (say 4-bit) adder would be pretty impressive. > > In power as well. > > It'd be darn-near EMP-proof, though. :-) > Hi I thought I might clarify what equipment I had. First it is not digital, it is an analog computer. Each tube calculates to about two decimal digits making each tube worth about 20 or so TTL equivalent. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jan 17 10:12:08 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:12:08 -0800 Subject: Craigslist- MicroVAX, DECstation, etc. In-Reply-To: <200801171011.m0HABQu1091091@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801171011.m0HABQu1091091@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4D9512BB-3D43-4A56-808E-963D39004BF1@valleyimplants.com> On Jan 17, 2008, at 2:11 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > There can't be too many people named Chris in Buffalo who > collect old > Unix gear and have an amazing array of install media and software for > them. If this is who I think it is, he's legit and very easy to deal > with. I've bought both equipment and media from him. Yes, it is him. He's also the one who sells PS/2->SGI {Indigo|Crimson| Onyx|Personal IRIS|Professional IRIS} keyboard adaptors. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 17 10:49:16 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:49:16 -0600 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080117104710.0a599830@mail.threedee.com> I received this inquiry via another mailing list. I think it's legit. They're coming to the USA looking for "quirky" people. Might there be a classic computer collector they should feature? - John From: Rebecca Rusz Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:06 AM To: jzd at cvctv.org Subject: Att: extraordinary people Im Rebecca Rusz and I work with research for a swedish TV show called "the 100 most extraordinary people". We are producing the 6th season now, this time in America. The team consists of our two TV hosts Philip and Fredrik, a segment producer nad a photographer. They travel across the states meeting offbeat/quirky people in order to find americas most extraordinary person. My hope is that they will travel to Illinois at the end of January beginning of february, meeting people. Why Im contacting you is that I know that public access tv have a lot of quirky people, so Im wondering if you could help me digging up some people for us? We need the people who are quirky IRL and not just in front of the camera. Thank you in advance. If you want, leave your direct number and I can call you back to discuss some more. Looking forward hearing from you soon. Rebecca Rusz Research From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 17 10:56:59 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) In-Reply-To: References: <200801161800.m0GI0CmC068494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <478F88DB.4040204@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > Roger Holmes. > Current custodian of the University of London machine, having bought the > 200,000 pound machine for 150 pounds in 1976. Still a 200,000 pound machine, regardless of the price. That was big iron back then. :) How hard is to keep and get spares for that system? > > . > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 11:04:12 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:04:12 -0600 Subject: Craigslist- MicroVAX, DECstation, etc. In-Reply-To: <4D9512BB-3D43-4A56-808E-963D39004BF1@valleyimplants.com> References: <200801171011.m0HABQu1091091@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4D9512BB-3D43-4A56-808E-963D39004BF1@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730801170904p4d307293qdf460f5f37169264@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 17, 2008 10:12 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > Yes, it is him. He's also the one who sells PS/2->SGI {Indigo|Crimson| > Onyx|Personal IRIS|Professional IRIS} keyboard adaptors. One of which is working nicely on my Crimson right now! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 17 13:07:37 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:07:37 -0300 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080117104710.0a599830@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <051b01c8593c$5dcb1800$0302a8c0@portajara> > I received this inquiry via another mailing list. I think it's legit. > They're coming to the USA looking for "quirky" people. Might there > be a classic computer collector they should feature? I dunno if "quirky" is offensive. But I think Tony Duell would be a great guy to be interviewed :oD From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 17 13:17:52 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:17:52 -0000 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: <051b01c8593c$5dcb1800$0302a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <001601c8593d$a968bd70$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Alexandre Souza wrote: > I dunno if "quirky" is offensive. It tells you everything you need to know: they need oddballs that can easily be made to look funny on TV. > But I think Tony Duell would be > a great guy to be interviewed :oD So what do you think the odds are that any potential interviewee on this list will come across as: (a) intelligent person who takes an interest in computing's past (for any of 100 reasons) (b) weirdo whose house is full of junk (perhaps the authorities should be informed) ? Don't let me stop you applying though :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 16/01/2008 09:01 From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 17 13:37:31 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:37:31 -0000 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on e-bay. . .) In-Reply-To: <478F88DB.4040204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001701c85940$67a78530$5b01a8c0@uatempname> woodelf wrote: > Still a 200,000 pound machine, regardless of the price. > That was big iron back then. :) How hard is to keep and get spares > for that system? Well maybe Roger's been watching that youtube video quite closely. Best install the furnace some distance from the barn, I would have thought! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.5/1228 - Release Date: 16/01/2008 09:01 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jan 17 13:51:27 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:51:27 +0000 Subject: Big Iron (was VLSI of classic architectures) In-Reply-To: <200801171800.m0HI0Cgg095037@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801171800.m0HI0Cgg095037@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <504A2F59-E6AD-4521-8231-E3EB8329DEA8@microspot.co.uk> >> Current custodian of the University of London machine, having >> bought the >> 200,000 pound machine for 150 pounds in 1976. > > Still a 200,000 pound machine, regardless of the price. > That was big iron back then. :) How hard is to keep and get spares > for that system? I bought a machine which I stripped for spares and also the previous owners had got most of the parts from the factory when they had cleared their parts store. Some SES light bulbs are still available from classic car parts stores, and wedge lamps were used in old telephone exchanges which sometimes come up on eBay, I even got some 17volt ones a while back, and some are still available new from RS components and they even make LED equivalents at a price, though they're the wrong shade of white. The rarer transistors sometimes come up on eBay too. The commonest (Mullard GET871/GET872/A/B/C) are difficult to get, though I passed on a half dozen on eBay where the blue plastic had turned brown - looked like they had blown up or got hot when de-soldered. Fortunately I have enough for the foreseeable future. Diodes (mainly OA5 and OA10) did have sky high prices and now are unavailable but I've got thousands. Of course resistors, capacitors and inductors are still available, though they do not look the same, and I still have to find out why the resistors have double green bands where there should be a gold band for the tolerance. I have been lucky so far with the electrolytics, not one has blown up, despite being 46 years old. They bought the best components available back then, and hand built them and tested every soldered joint and marked it with lacquer to show it had been tested. The biggest electrolytics are bigger than a hand grenade, so I hope they never fail! There two types of valves in the tape drives. I got about a hundred of one type with the machine, and not used one, the other type I've picked up in the States on eBay, they are used in old CNC spark eroders apparently. I am rapidly getting though my stock of 'rubber' pinch rollers for the mag tape drives, which go hard and crack up. The same thing happens with the rubber-like roller in the punch card reader, but that is about 4 inch diameter, so it is currently wrapped in four layers of motorcycle inner tube, though its not very effective and I may have to mould a new one in synthetic rubber. Most of the mechanical parts are simply unavailable, but I have a lathe and a milling machine. I bought some flat belts for driving the tape capstan rollers, they are commonly used as knitting machine drive belts apparently. V belts for the drums and line printer are fortunately standard car parts. Line printer ribbons will be a problem (when I get the printer working again). I have a box of a dozen or more but if they have now dried up by now I will be amazed. There used to be re-inking firms around, or maybe I could just buy the ink and get my hands dirty. Should not be unsurmountable, even if the fabric has failed, its just (nylon?) cloth, should be able to get something to do the job. I've a good stock of blank punched cards and paper tape (5 and 8 track) and enough mag tapes to keep me going for a long time. Fan fold paper is probably still available new and when I see any cheap locally on eBay I buy it up. The logic indicator tubes (DM170 or something like that) never seem to fail. The microswitches (particularly the start switch which takes a hammering when single stepping a program) are in short supply, though I don't see too much of a problem in fitting modern sub-micro versions and extending the actuating arms. Multi-segment rotary switches just need a squirt of switch cleaner/lubricant from time to time. One problem, and it sounds stupid, is the rotary switch knobs. They are made of plastic and they fit on a 1/4 inch shaft with a flat section, nothing unusual there. There is a boss on the back which fits into a recess in the formica covered blockboard (yes the computer has wood in it) front panel. These bosses break off. The shafts are not long enough for most modern knobs, and anyway I want to keep it looking original. Because of the recess, it is not possible to use knobs with a screw. I am thinking about making some aluminium knobs which I can glue or screw into the original front parts of the knobs. The problem is making the flat part which fits the flat of the shaft. I suppose I could make them of brass and then put sufficient soft solder in the hole so that I can shove it onto the shaft so that it won't come off easily. I guess there must be a tool for making D-shaped holes somewhere, or maybe there should be some spring steel in there somehow. The relay contacts need cleaning sometimes, though they are platinum so are pretty reliable. There are no edge connectors in the computer itself, every one of the 4000 PCBs is wire wrapped in, which means there are about 50,000 test points. The racks in the computer are also wire wrapped together, no plugs and sockets. This all improves reliability and I think accounts for the machine's survival (well that and my eccentricity). The tape drives have some plugs and sockets and edge connectors, but have so far been reasonably reliable as well. Castors were a nightmare. The tyres on the ones on the (800 lb) tape drives crack up. The ones on the computer have a flat top with a stud poking out. The stud has a washer and a nut and fit into an open ended slot with another nut on top. Any jolt and the stud bends. If I have to move anything heavy now, I remove the washer and first nut and make up a three inch piece of wood the equivalent thickness to take their place, which spreads the load over a larger area instead of concentrating it on the stud. Fuses: small ones still available from Maplin for peanuts, large ones are NATO standard and cost silly money, so I drill the ends, empty out the sand and solder 10,15 or 20 amp domestic fuse wire into the old cartridges. Meters, so far very reliable apart from one where the needle would not go above a certain point, so I had to dismantle it and glue the glass back in which was what the needle was jamming on. I think that just about covers all the parts which go wrong. Roger Holmes From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Jan 17 13:58:37 2008 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:58:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc Message-ID: <2597114.1200599917408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Somebody recently was asking about wanting to see videos of some vintage equipment in action. I have uploaded some videos to YouTube. These were taken some time back in 2007 one day when I was playing around with my system. The videos are not anything high quality, but do show the PDP-11/40 front panel with the lights blinking, the RL01, RL02, and RK05 drives as they are running, and an ASR-33 teletype, a VT05 terminal, a VT52 DecScope, an LA36 DecWriter II, and an LA120 DecWriterIII as the terminals run the system status program $SYSTAT. Take a look at some live vintage equipment in actions! The URL at YouTube is under the user "WoffordWitch" at: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=WoffordWitch&p=r If there's anything in particular anyone would like me to video and upload, just reply here or email me at wacarder at usit.net, and I'll fire up the old system and try to accomodate you. Thanks, Ashley Carder http://www.woffordwitch.com From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 14:26:58 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:26:58 -0800 Subject: Big Iron (was VLSI of classic architectures) In-Reply-To: <504A2F59-E6AD-4521-8231-E3EB8329DEA8@microspot.co.uk> References: <200801171800.m0HI0Cgg095037@dewey.classiccmp.org> <504A2F59-E6AD-4521-8231-E3EB8329DEA8@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d3530220801171226m5a21f15fp45bd29f75ffe60e5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 17, 2008 11:51 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > >> Current custodian of the University of London machine, having > >> bought the > >> 200,000 pound machine for 150 pounds in 1976. > > > > Still a 200,000 pound machine, regardless of the price. > > That was big iron back then. :) How hard is to keep and get spares > > for that system? > > I bought a machine which I stripped for spares and also the previous > owners had got most of the parts from the factory when they had > cleared their parts store. > > Some SES light bulbs are still available from classic car parts > stores, and wedge lamps were used in old telephone exchanges which > sometimes come up on eBay, I even got some 17volt ones a while back, > and some are still available new from RS components and they even > make LED equivalents at a price, though they're the wrong shade of > white. > > The rarer transistors sometimes come up on eBay too. The commonest > (Mullard GET871/GET872/A/B/C) are difficult to get, though I passed > on a half dozen on eBay where the blue plastic had turned brown - > looked like they had blown up or got hot when de-soldered. > Fortunately I have enough for the foreseeable future. > > Diodes (mainly OA5 and OA10) did have sky high prices and now are > unavailable but I've got thousands. > > Of course resistors, capacitors and inductors are still available, > though they do not look the same, and I still have to find out why > the resistors have double green bands where there should be a gold > band for the tolerance. I have been lucky so far with the > electrolytics, not one has blown up, despite being 46 years old. They > bought the best components available back then, and hand built them > and tested every soldered joint and marked it with lacquer to show it > had been tested. The biggest electrolytics are bigger than a hand > grenade, so I hope they never fail! > > There two types of valves in the tape drives. I got about a hundred > of one type with the machine, and not used one, the other type I've > picked up in the States on eBay, they are used in old CNC spark > eroders apparently. > > I am rapidly getting though my stock of 'rubber' pinch rollers for > the mag tape drives, which go hard and crack up. The same thing > happens with the rubber-like roller in the punch card reader, but > that is about 4 inch diameter, so it is currently wrapped in four > layers of motorcycle inner tube, though its not very effective and I > may have to mould a new one in synthetic rubber. > > Most of the mechanical parts are simply unavailable, but I have a > lathe and a milling machine. > > I bought some flat belts for driving the tape capstan rollers, they > are commonly used as knitting machine drive belts apparently. V belts > for the drums and line printer are fortunately standard car parts. > > Line printer ribbons will be a problem (when I get the printer > working again). I have a box of a dozen or more but if they have now > dried up by now I will be amazed. There used to be re-inking firms > around, or maybe I could just buy the ink and get my hands dirty. > Should not be unsurmountable, even if the fabric has failed, its just > (nylon?) cloth, should be able to get something to do the job. > > I've a good stock of blank punched cards and paper tape (5 and 8 > track) and enough mag tapes to keep me going for a long time. Fan > fold paper is probably still available new and when I see any cheap > locally on eBay I buy it up. > > The logic indicator tubes (DM170 or something like that) never seem > to fail. The microswitches (particularly the start switch which takes > a hammering when single stepping a program) are in short supply, > though I don't see too much of a problem in fitting modern sub-micro > versions and extending the actuating arms. Multi-segment rotary > switches just need a squirt of switch cleaner/lubricant from time to > time. > > One problem, and it sounds stupid, is the rotary switch knobs. They > are made of plastic and they fit on a 1/4 inch shaft with a flat > section, nothing unusual there. There is a boss on the back which > fits into a recess in the formica covered blockboard (yes the > computer has wood in it) front panel. These bosses break off. The > shafts are not long enough for most modern knobs, and anyway I want > to keep it looking original. Because of the recess, it is not > possible to use knobs with a screw. I am thinking about making some > aluminium knobs which I can glue or screw into the original front > parts of the knobs. The problem is making the flat part which fits > the flat of the shaft. I suppose I could make them of brass and then > put sufficient soft solder in the hole so that I can shove it onto > the shaft so that it won't come off easily. I guess there must be a > tool for making D-shaped holes somewhere, or maybe there should be > some spring steel in there somehow. > > The relay contacts need cleaning sometimes, though they are platinum > so are pretty reliable. > > There are no edge connectors in the computer itself, every one of the > 4000 PCBs is wire wrapped in, which means there are about 50,000 test > points. The racks in the computer are also wire wrapped together, no > plugs and sockets. This all improves reliability and I think accounts > for the machine's survival (well that and my eccentricity). The tape > drives have some plugs and sockets and edge connectors, but have so > far been reasonably reliable as well. > > Castors were a nightmare. The tyres on the ones on the (800 lb) tape > drives crack up. The ones on the computer have a flat top with a stud > poking out. The stud has a washer and a nut and fit into an open > ended slot with another nut on top. Any jolt and the stud bends. If I > have to move anything heavy now, I remove the washer and first nut > and make up a three inch piece of wood the equivalent thickness to > take their place, which spreads the load over a larger area instead > of concentrating it on the stud. > > Fuses: small ones still available from Maplin for peanuts, large ones > are NATO standard and cost silly money, so I drill the ends, empty > out the sand and solder 10,15 or 20 amp domestic fuse wire into the > old cartridges. > > Meters, so far very reliable apart from one where the needle would > not go above a certain point, so I had to dismantle it and glue the > glass back in which was what the needle was jamming on. > > I think that just about covers all the parts which go wrong. > > Roger Holmes > > That sounds like a really great project; I've found the website and it looks interesting. I've always wanted to do something like that with a mainframe but of course it's hard to find one and find a place to put it. This kind of thing really inspires me to try and form some sort of vintage/retro computing club at my university... just gotta find some space! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 17 14:27:41 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:27:41 -0700 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:17:52 +0000. <001601c8593d$a968bd70$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: In article <001601c8593d$a968bd70$5b01a8c0 at uatempname>, "Antonio Carlini" writes: > So what do you think the odds are that any potential interviewee > on this list will come across as: > > (a) intelligent person who takes an interest in computing's > past (for any of 100 reasons) 0% > (b) weirdo whose house is full of junk (perhaps the authorities > should be informed) 100% They are looking for geeks to make fun of, not to promote the hobby. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 17 14:37:35 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:37:35 -0700 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478FBC8F.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > In article <001601c8593d$a968bd70$5b01a8c0 at uatempname>, > "Antonio Carlini" writes: > >> So what do you think the odds are that any potential interviewee >> on this list will come across as: >> >> (a) intelligent person who takes an interest in computing's >> past (for any of 100 reasons) > > 0% > >> (b) weirdo whose house is full of junk (perhaps the authorities >> should be informed) > > 100% 25% > > They are looking for geeks to make fun of, not to promote the hobby. The other 75% of the people have expanded to other buildings :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 17 16:18:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:18:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: <051b01c8593c$5dcb1800$0302a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jan 17, 8 04:07:37 pm Message-ID: > > > I received this inquiry via another mailing list. I think it's legit. > > They're coming to the USA looking for "quirky" people. Might there > > be a classic computer collector they should feature? > > I dunno if "quirky" is offensive. But I think Tony Duell would be a > great guy to be interviewed :oD Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I would agree that I am certainly eccentric. And I don't find being regards as eccentric as offensive (the truth is rarely offensive!) However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the antics of our government, England is not part of America. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 17 16:05:20 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:05:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: <478E981A.9070106@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jan 16, 8 04:49:46 pm Message-ID: > I found a web link here, but this is the first time I have heard of a P800. > http://www.theoengel.nl/ A Google search for 'Philips P850' (no quotes) finds a few relevant pages, including a picture of me demonstrating said machine. As an aside, is there anybody who doesn't recognise the pattern on my jumper in that photo? -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 17 16:31:07 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:31:07 -0800 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> <200801161949.41947.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > A year or two ago there was a discussion on the list where we were testing > > a variety of 74x175's (albeit configured in an odd manner) for some PDP-8 > > front panel and were observing changing and idiosyncratic behaviour over a > > very narrow operating voltage range. > > Do you recall offhand what sorts of changes in behavior was being discussed? Look in the archives around Aug/Sep 2006 for subject with "PDP-8m Console Switch Problems" The gist was that the front panel was using the '175 in a non-specified way (FF collector triggerring) and a replacement device did not function in the same way. It turned out that the behaviour could vary with small changes in Vcc amongst devices from different manufacturers and different classes (74,74S,74LS). .. just an instance of device behaviour being sensitive to small Vcc variation. On the other hand, the early HP2100-series processors use some 74xx TTL operating at 4.5V on IO/interface boards, which is outside the Vcc spec. I've been a little surprised at HP for doing that. > > I hope you're not looking to mimic TTL - you'll have trouble sourcing > > multi-emitter transistors in discrete form. > > I seem to recall some wikipedia page referring to those as if they ever were > actually available. Not that I could say with any certainty that they > weren't, and if anybody knows otherwise please feel free to point me toward > info, but I've never seen them, or heard of them as discrete devices at > all. (Yes .. (my comment was intended as a bit of a joke)) --- I've never seen the documentation for DEC's early discrete flip-chips (bitsavers?) but doesn't it include full specs for things like loading rules and fan-in-out, seeing as the flip-chips were sold as a 'logic family' to build one's own system from. Anyone know offhand how many transistors were in the first PDP-8? It's parallel and core-mem and thus outside the OP's objective but could be interesting for a ballpark comparison. (I know somebody on the list has a site listing all the -8 versions) but was the bit-serial version of the -8 done in discrete or IC? If IC, could be interesting to translate it back to discrete and estimate the transistor count. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 17 16:42:55 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:42:55 +0000 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> <200801161949.41947.rtellason@verizon.net> <478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20080117224255.GB20548@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 02:31:07PM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Anyone know offhand how many transistors were in the first PDP-8? It's parallel > and core-mem and thus outside the OP's objective but could be interesting for a > ballpark comparison. > > (I know somebody on the list has a site listing all the -8 versions) but was > the bit-serial version of the -8 done in discrete or IC? If IC, could be > interesting to translate it back to discrete and estimate the transistor count. The "bit-serial" version you are thinking of is probably the PDP-8/S. It does have a 1-bit serialized ALU. It was made with the same technology as the original "Straight" 8 - R-series, S-series, and W-series FLIP-CHIPs (transistors, not TTL ICs like the later M-series). While I don't have a transistor count for the Straight 8, the count for the -8/S is right around 1,000 (998?) I do not know if that includes I/O driver boards for out-of-box peripherals (which is just about everything, unlike other models of -8 which typically include, at the very least, a console serial interface on IOTs 03/04). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jan-2008 at 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -7.6 F (-22.0 C) Windchill -24.2 F (-31.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.6 kts Grid 217 Barometer 678.2 mb (10696 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 17 16:46:09 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:46:09 -0700 Subject: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP In-Reply-To: <478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> <200801161949.41947.rtellason@verizon.net> <478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <478FDAB1.30404@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >>> A year or two ago there was a discussion on the list where we were testing >>> a variety of 74x175's (albeit configured in an odd manner) for some PDP-8 >>> front panel and were observing changing and idiosyncratic behaviour over a >>> very narrow operating voltage range. >> Do you recall offhand what sorts of changes in behavior was being discussed? > > Look in the archives around Aug/Sep 2006 for subject with > "PDP-8m Console Switch Problems" > The gist was that the front panel was using the '175 in a non-specified way > (FF collector triggerring) and a replacement device did not function in the same > way. It turned out that the behaviour could vary with small changes in Vcc amongst > devices from different manufacturers and different classes (74,74S,74LS). > .. just an instance of device behaviour being sensitive to small Vcc variation. > > On the other hand, the early HP2100-series processors use some 74xx TTL > operating at 4.5V on IO/interface boards, which is outside the Vcc spec. > I've been a little surprised at HP for doing that. > > >>> I hope you're not looking to mimic TTL - you'll have trouble sourcing >>> multi-emitter transistors in discrete form. >> I seem to recall some wikipedia page referring to those as if they ever were >> actually available. Not that I could say with any certainty that they >> weren't, and if anybody knows otherwise please feel free to point me toward >> info, but I've never seen them, or heard of them as discrete devices at >> all. > > (Yes .. (my comment was intended as a bit of a joke)) > > --- > > I've never seen the documentation for DEC's early discrete flip-chips > (bitsavers?) but doesn't it include full specs for things like loading rules > and fan-in-out, seeing as the flip-chips were sold as a 'logic family' to build > one's own system from. > > Anyone know offhand how many transistors were in the first PDP-8? It's parallel > and core-mem and thus outside the OP's objective but could be interesting for a > ballpark comparison. Well the PDP-8/S was about 1000 transistors so I am guessing double that. > (I know somebody on the list has a site listing all the -8 versions) but was > the bit-serial version of the -8 done in discrete or IC? If IC, could be > interesting to translate it back to discrete and estimate the transistor count. > A Ballpark guess may be 4 transistors per flip/chip and count the chips in the classic PDP-8. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 17 16:55:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:55:21 -0500 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75C58D1B-D362-4D30-824B-E28E99FA5EE3@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:18 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I received this inquiry via another mailing list. I think it's >>> legit. >>> They're coming to the USA looking for "quirky" people. Might there >>> be a classic computer collector they should feature? >> >> I dunno if "quirky" is offensive. But I think Tony Duell would >> be a >> great guy to be interviewed :oD > > Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I would agree that I am > certainly > eccentric. I agree 100%. ;) > And I don't find being regards as eccentric as offensive (the > truth is rarely offensive!) Heh...I live in America. The truth is *usually* offensive here. > However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the > antics of our government, England is not part of America. If America's government is given half a chance, it will be! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 17 17:33:41 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:33:41 -0700 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:05:20 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > A Google search for 'Philips P850' (no quotes) finds a few relevant > pages, including a picture of me demonstrating said machine. In true computer geek style, the *computer* is in focus, but Tony is not :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 18:31:10 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:31:10 +0000 Subject: Last call: Wyse WY-55 manual, Introduction to the Sirius 1 Computer - FTGH (UK) In-Reply-To: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> References: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2008 8:29 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 00:42 +0000, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > Hi list, > > > > The above need to find a new home within about a week or they get recycled. > > > > Free, but you pay shipping. Will ship to anywhere in the world. > > > > Please reply directly to me as list traffic is still a bit funny for me atm. > > Go on then. I have fond memories of the Sirius, since it was one of the > first "serious" computers I used, waaaay back when I was in secondary > school. > > Work out the postage and I'll paypal it to you. > > Gordon JC Pearce, > 24, Orchy Crescent > Westerton > Glasgow G61 1RE Hi Gordon, Just to let you know, I haven't forgotten about this. A shipping cost should be on its way to you sometime soon. Regards, Ed. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 18:31:50 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:31:50 +0000 Subject: Last call: Wyse WY-55 manual, Introduction to the Sirius 1 Computer - FTGH (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2008 12:31 AM, wrote: > > On Jan 4, 2008 8:29 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 00:42 +0000, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > > Hi list, > > > > > > > The above need to find a new home within about a week or they get recycled. > > > > > > Free, but you pay shipping. Will ship to anywhere in the world. > > > > > > Please reply directly to me as list traffic is still a bit funny for me atm. > > > > Go on then. I have fond memories of the Sirius, since it was one of the > > first "serious" computers I used, waaaay back when I was in secondary > > school. > > > > Work out the postage and I'll paypal it to you. > > > > Gordon JC Pearce, > > 24, Orchy Crescent > > Westerton > > Glasgow G61 1RE > > Hi Gordon, > > Just to let you know, I haven't forgotten about this. A shipping cost > should be on its way to you sometime soon. Gah, that was meant to be off-list. Apologies to all for the wasted bandwidth... Ed. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 18:35:36 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:35:36 +0000 Subject: FTGH: SPARCstation 2 HDD on original bracket Message-ID: Hi list, I have here a part number 370-1327-04, which is a 207MB Maxtor 50pin SCSI disk. It's mounted on the right bracket to go in an SS2 - I'm guessing this is probably the same for the 1 and 1+, but I don't know. Is anyone interested in this drive, or even just the bracket, before I pitch it? Usual deal - I'll ship to anywhere as long as you pay the cost. Ed. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 17 19:15:39 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:15:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: copying a GAL/PAL In-Reply-To: <939429.86356.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <939429.86356.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > need to remove the chip, please let me know. Gracias > Amigos! > Then again if anyone can provide a known working > schematic/plan for such a card, that would be all the better. Either way, put me up for two of 'em. :) I've got a 5160 that's _mint_ (the last time data was written to the drive was 1985 and it came to me in the original boxes _and_ packing!). I've also got a 5150 resto project that will need a drive. :) thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 17 21:45:00 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:45:00 -0800 Subject: K-series flip-chips / was Re: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au> <478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca> <200801161949.41947.rtellason@verizon.net> <478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> <20080117224255.GB20548@usap.gov> Message-ID: <479020BB.5C1840A2@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > The "bit-serial" version you are thinking of is probably the PDP-8/S. It > does have a 1-bit serialized ALU. It was made with the same technology as > the original "Straight" 8 - R-series, S-series, and W-series FLIP-CHIPs > (transistors, not TTL ICs like the later M-series). Side-tracking here, but I have a few K-series modules and I see at http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/digital/timeline/1967-2.htm they are described as having high noise immunity for use in industrial control systems. Are these something like the discrete equivalent of HTL ICs? Anyone know if there was a standard/common DEC processor built from them, or perhaps an industrial version of such a processor? DEC-heads might like these: http://research.microsoft.com/%7Egbell/Digital/timeline/dechistory.htm http://research.microsoft.com/%7Egbell/Digital/timeline/tmlnhome.htm (I hadn't come across them before) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 17 22:52:51 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:52:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 17, 8 10:18:31 pm" Message-ID: <200801180452.m0I4qpKF018370@floodgap.com> > However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the > antics of our government, England is not part of America. Exactly. England became independent of America in 1776. (oh, I love to stir the pot ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TV is chewing gum for the eyes. -- Frank Lloyd Wright ---------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 17 23:00:21 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:00:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: <200801180452.m0I4qpKF018370@floodgap.com> References: <200801180452.m0I4qpKF018370@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >> However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the >> antics of our government, England is not part of America. > > Exactly. England became independent of America in 1776. > (oh, I love to stir the pot ;-) > Now wait just a second! I could have sworn that it was really a US Navy aicraft carrier, the CVN-1776 Britannia! When are you guys going to turn that thing around and bring it home? *runs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 07:41:38 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:41:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Went down to the ETH today... In-Reply-To: <478D1F82.5010409@bluewin.ch> References: <4787A665.9080900@bluewin.ch> <478D1F82.5010409@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > >> If you are able to get the Modula-2 technical reports and M-Code reference >> manual, I will be forever grateful! Tried several times in the late 80's, >> but none of my letters (pre-e-mail) were ever responded to. This stuff is >> key to reverse engineering the Borland Turbo-Modula2 environment for CP/M. >> > > Did you have any report in particular in mind ? > > The modula compiler for the Lilith has been ported to the PC, > source code for that compiler is available. > Is that what you had in mind ? That would be a good start. This was so long ago that I don't remember the titles and publication numbers, unfortunately. One of them was specific to the M-Code format, though. I looked in vain for some sort of catalog on the ETH web site. Do they have something of that sort available? If I could look at a list of papers and reports I'm sure the ones I need would be obvious. Where can I find the PC compiler sources? Steve -- From filippo.santolin at flyinformatica.it Thu Jan 17 10:50:26 2008 From: filippo.santolin at flyinformatica.it (Filippo Santolin) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:50:26 +0100 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 25 Message-ID: Dear Sir, i would like to ask you the price for IBM 8530-021 and cost for shipping to italy. IBM 8530-021 computer still working?? Best Regards Filippo Fly Informatica snc tel. 0572 445340 fax 0572 448378 Le informazioni contenute nella presente comunicazione ed i relativi allegati possono essere riservati e sono comunque, destinati esclusivamente alle persone e agli Enti sopraindicati. La diffusione, distribuzione e/o copiatura del documento trasmesso da parte di qualsiasi soggetto diverso dal destinatario ? proibita, sia ai sensi dell'art. 616 c.p. che ai sensi del D.Lgs.n.196/2003. Se avete ricevuto questo messaggio per errore, vi preghiamo di distruggerlo e di informarci immediatamente per telefono allo 0572 445340 o inviando un messaggio di posta elettronica all'indirizzo: info at flyinformatica.it. In caso di ricezione mancata o incompleta, telefonare al numero 0572 445340. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 11:54:17 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: *Brand New* Sega/Yeno F.S. Message-ID: <851376.70248.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I have 2 I've acquired recently. I only want to sell one. 150$ + shipping. look here: http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1096 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From james at machineroom.info Thu Jan 17 15:18:50 2008 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:18:50 +0000 Subject: SGI Onyx R10K on eBay UK Message-ID: <478FC63A.5080807@machineroom.info> Hi all, I just spotted an R10K Onyx on eBay UK. It's not of any interest to me (had 2 before!) but thought someone here may want to care for it. Item number is 110215756310 Cheers, James From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 18 02:15:29 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:15:29 -0500 Subject: 40M drive for postage Message-ID: <200801180315.29930.rtellason@verizon.net> >From a private email: > >> D3142 Disk Drive P/N 134-500558-531 and I think I looked that up once > >> and it came back as a 40 meg drive. Has a 17 connectors for some kinda > >> plug in one place and 10 more farther over with about a 3/8 gap between > >> the two groups. Oh, well, hell. Here is a pic attached. > > > > Those connectors are marked as 34 and 20 pin, which means either MFM or > > RLL, depending. I have some of that old stuff around, but don't have any > > near-term plans to use any of it. Dunno anybody else who does, > > either. I can forward a snip of that info to the classic computers list > > and see if anybody wants it, though. Want anything for it? > > Nah, just postage if anyone can use it. I never will. I have the pic here if anybody wants to see it. Can any of you guys use this thing? If so let me know offlist and I'll put you in touch... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Jan 18 08:49:35 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:49:35 -0000 Subject: Fw: Big Iron (was VLSI of classic architectures) Message-ID: <003701c859e1$58795740$911ca8c0@mss.local> > > That sounds like a really great project; I've found the website and it > looks interesting. I've always wanted to do something like that with a > mainframe but of course it's hard to find one and find a place to put > it. This kind of thing really inspires me to try and form some sort of > vintage/retro computing club at my university... just gotta find some > space! > Do you have that website url. Mike > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:26:58 -0800 > From: "John Floren" > Subject: Re: Big Iron (was VLSI of classic architectures) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <7d3530220801171226m5a21f15fp45bd29f75ffe60e5 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Jan 17, 2008 11:51 AM, Roger Holmes > wrote: >> >> > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 18 09:10:48 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:10:48 -0600 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080118090505.04f9aec0@mail.threedee.com> At 05:33 PM 1/17/2008, Richard wrote: >In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >> A Google search for 'Philips P850' (no quotes) finds a few relevant >> pages, including a picture of me demonstrating said machine. > >In true computer geek style, the *computer* is in focus, but Tony is >not :-). Wow, Tony is far younger and more stylin' than I imagined. A 'Life' sweater, no doubt autographed on the tag by Conway! But I sympathize, when I was writing in my mid-20s many thought I was an old man, too, due to my curmudgeonly side. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 09:34:01 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:34:01 -0500 Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080118090505.04f9aec0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080118090505.04f9aec0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4790C6E9.5070003@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: >>> A Google search for 'Philips P850' (no quotes) finds a few relevant >>> pages, including a picture of me demonstrating said machine. >> In true computer geek style, the *computer* is in focus, but Tony is >> not :-). > > Wow, Tony is far younger and more stylin' than I imagined. > A 'Life' sweater, no doubt autographed on the tag by Conway! > > But I sympathize, when I was writing in my mid-20s many thought > I was an old man, too, due to my curmudgeonly side. I get that all the time, as well. Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 18 10:35:02 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:35:02 +0000 Subject: Calling Austin Pass, was Re: Last call: Wyse WY-55 manual, Introduction to the Sirius 1 Computer - FTGH (UK) In-Reply-To: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> References: <1199435399.7992.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200801181635.02562.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Friday 04 January 2008 08:29:59 Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Work out the postage and I'll paypal it to you. Which reminds me - Austin, drop me an email, I'm owe you money ;-) Gordon From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Jan 18 11:20:58 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:20:58 +0000 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: <200801180452.m0I4qpKF018370@floodgap.com> References: <200801180452.m0I4qpKF018370@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8d881b737921536bd197900fbbd8521c@mac.com> >> However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the >> antics of our government, England is not part of America. > > Exactly. England became independent of America in 1776. > (oh, I love to stir the pot ;-) But according to the conspiracy theory people, the USA and everyone in it still belong to the Queen of England. :-P roger From accutron at woh.rr.com Fri Jan 18 12:37:16 2008 From: accutron at woh.rr.com (Micah Mabelitini) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:37:16 -0500 Subject: HP 9845 Microprocessors Message-ID: <4790F1DC.4070805@woh.rr.com> I'm trying to nail down a few bits of information regarding the various hybrid microprocessors contained in the earlier versions of the HP 9845. I recently purchased a large lot of 9845 boards, looks like most of one machine plus the PPU from a second machine. All told, I have four hybrid microprocessors. Two are the 107-pin AEC-variant 5061-3001 processor, one on a revision-A PPU card and one on a revision-B PPU card. The other two are both mounted on a single card, which is presumably a pre-bitslice LPU. Of the two processors on this board, one is a 5061-3010, the other a 5061-3011. From what I understand, the -3010 is the original hybrid used in the 9825, and I read something somewhere that lead me to believe the -3011 is a microcode variant of the standard -3010. Are both of these processors part of the LPU? Most sources refer to the 9845 having two processors, the PPU and the LPU, and I haven't found any that say the LPU itself actually consists of two processors. Is the -3011 just a microcode variant of the -3010? Also, are there any microcode variations between the -3001 on a revision-A PPU card and one on a revison-B PPU card? Regards, Micah Mabelitini From grant at stockly.com Fri Jan 18 13:11:37 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:11:37 -0900 Subject: MOMS Autograft4 In-Reply-To: References: <0JUL00HPHY7NZQ10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <0JUU00JH7TB1UR50@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 02:32 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote: > > > > > >Has anyone ever heard of an Autograft system? When I try to turn it > > >on it fails. The hard drive grunts and then it sounds like its > > >releasing a relay or solenoid. I plugged it into a regular desktop > > >power supply and it does the same thing Then the access LED blinks > > >morse code at me. Is there any way I can get it spinning to recover > > >What is the make and model of the hard disk? I susepct it's actually some >standard drive. I think its a MFM (ST-506?) style hard drive with a SASI adaptor board. I'll try to get more information on it. >I have no idea what the Jade probe actually does, but have you done the >normal tests of checking the supply voltages at the processor oard, then >checking if the CPU clock is running, checking that the reset line isn't >stuck asseted, and then looking for activity on the address and data >lines? Ues a ;scope or logic probe. The BUS probe is a double height S-100 card that provides a front panel type display. It has LEDs for the clock lines specifically. The clock LEDs light up with my 186 card, but not with the CPU card that came with it. Grant From grant at stockly.com Fri Jan 18 13:20:21 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20:21 -0900 Subject: copying a GAL/PAL In-Reply-To: <939429.86356.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <939429.86356.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JUU00MCSTPLRW00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 03:00 PM 1/16/2008, you wrote: >can someone provide the specifics? I keep getting >badgered LOL ever since I announced I own an XT-IDE >card. The one I have is pretty simple, just some OTS >logic, but for the PAL (or is it a GAL - damn wish I >had a GAL-PAL LOLOLOLOLOL). Therefore I need to have a >way to duplicate such, so at least I can provide a >path for those that want such a card. > Of course this will involved desoldering. Not that >big a deal, I feel I can lay the component side in a >tray filled with cool water (with even a fish pump to >course fluid past the pins) and go to town. If I don't >need to remove the chip, please let me know. Gracias >Amigos! > Then again if anyone can provide a known working >schematic/plan for such a card, that would be all the better. You don't need any water. Good desoldering tools would be required. There are reverse engineering plants in China that specialize on copying PALs, GALs, etc. I haven't done it, but know of someone who has. He pays about $30 or so a piece plus shipping. I think there are places in the US that do this, but they charge $1000+ (to operate a $100 device they bought from China...). What is the part number of the PAL? Copying the PAL will most likely destroy it. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 13:36:55 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:36:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11 rescue. Message-ID: <385561.11716.qm@web56209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm trying to rescue/restore a PDP 11/34A. The basic CPU looks to be in a good state, its been stored well. What I'd like to do is make up a small 19" rack of some kind (was this the DEC 'corporate' rack) or a regular rack if I cant find that, and add a suitable 11/34A compatible disk drive. I have a suitable VT. The 11/34A has a good selection of tape and disk interface cards so an RL02 or similar would probably work fine. Does anyone have anything available for sale or trade in the UK preferably. I can collect of course. I have plenty of PDP QBUS spares for trade if that's of interest - just no disks or racks. Thanks! Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 14:03:05 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:03:05 -0500 Subject: Fw: Big Iron (was VLSI of classic architectures) In-Reply-To: <003701c859e1$58795740$911ca8c0@mss.local> References: <003701c859e1$58795740$911ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <7d3530220801181203v37b6581bx7a8951d2273e5162@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/08, Mike Hatch wrote: > > > > That sounds like a really great project; I've found the website and it > > looks interesting. I've always wanted to do something like that with a > > mainframe but of course it's hard to find one and find a place to put > > it. This kind of thing really inspires me to try and form some sort of > > vintage/retro computing club at my university... just gotta find some > > space! > > > > Do you have that website url. > > Mike > > http://www.ict1301.co.uk/13012006.htm John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Fri Jan 18 16:54:35 2008 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:54:35 -0000 Subject: copying a GAL/PAL References: <939429.86356.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <0JUU00MCSTPLRW00@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB0109BF2A@exch-be09.exchange.local> >Grant Stockly wrote on 18 January 2008 at 19:20 At 03:00 PM 1/16/2008, you wrote: >can someone provide the specifics? I keep getting >badgered LOL ever since I announced I own an XT-IDE >card. The one I have is pretty simple, just some OTS >logic, but for the PAL (or is it a GAL - damn wish I >had a GAL-PAL LOLOLOLOLOL). Therefore I need to have a >way to duplicate such, so at least I can provide a >path for those that want such a card. > Of course this will involved desoldering. Not that >big a deal, I feel I can lay the component side in a >tray filled with cool water (with even a fish pump to >course fluid past the pins) and go to town. If I don't >need to remove the chip, please let me know. Gracias >Amigos! > Then again if anyone can provide a known working >schematic/plan for such a card, that would be all the better. You don't need any water. Good desoldering tools would be required. [DrB] I've had Multibus 2 backplane connectors (86 pins) salvaged from backplanes for reuse on in-service systems. Pukka kit and experience are essential. For DIY you could use http://www.amazon.com/Aoyue-Profesional-Repair-Rework-Station/dp/B000HDJ 5J2 a bit high end but you need the desoldering iron. If this seems expensive have a look at (Cooper Tools) Weller's offerings - it's cheep. Very interested in hands on reports of whether (a posteriori) it's good value. [DrB] Your best approach to GAL/PAL extraction is a friendly wireman. There are reverse engineering plants in China that specialize on copying PALs, GALs, etc. I haven't done it, but know of someone who has. He pays about $30 or so a piece plus shipping. I think there are places in the US that do this, but they charge $1000+ (to operate a $100 device they bought from China...). [DrB] If the security fuse isn't set you can read GALs & PALs on a programmer. Otherwise, you have to work the problem... Very old devices will require "classic" programmers. The best, inexpensive device I'm aware of is the Galep http://www.conitec.net/english/index.htm very interested in alternates. What is the part number of the PAL? [DrB] Not the OEMs sticker (although that is interesting), but the chip vendors part number, date code, etc. A JPEG image would be ideal. Copying the PAL will most likely destroy it. [DrB] Not due to reading it on a "programmer". However, you would wish to (at least) socket it or replace it with a (socketed) copy. Obviously, open top reverse engineering would leave you with an ornament / trophy. [DrB] Another issue is wheter you can obtain equivalent parts. Sometimes, to avoid timing or signal integrity issues, you have to replace GALs/PALs with devices of the same silicon generation. Can you obtain the old chips in small quantities ? HTH Martin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 18 16:54:52 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:54:52 +0000 Subject: PDP 11 rescue. In-Reply-To: <385561.11716.qm@web56209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <385561.11716.qm@web56209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1200696892.27915.2.camel@elric> On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 11:36 -0800, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to rescue/restore a PDP 11/34A. The > basic CPU looks to be in a good state, its been > stored well. > > What I'd like to do is make up a small 19" rack of > some kind (was this the DEC 'corporate' rack) or > a regular rack if I cant find that, and add a > suitable 11/34A compatible disk drive. I have > a suitable VT. > > The 11/34A has a good selection of tape and disk > interface cards so an RL02 or similar would probably > work fine. > > Does anyone have anything available for sale > or trade in the UK preferably. I can collect of > course. > > I have plenty of PDP QBUS spares for trade if > that's of interest - just no disks or racks. I've got a spare RL02 drive, and a bunch of carts, but no Unibus controller card. If your 11/34 has something that will work, you're welcome to it, and some disks. Only thing is, I'm in Glasgow, which is probably not terribly near you (all the other classiccmpers I know are at least as far south as the Pennines). There *might* be a haul of PDP-11 stuff in Aberdeen. I don't know if it's still there, and I haven't spoken to the guy who had it in about a year. Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 18 18:10:05 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:10:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: *Brand New* Sega/Yeno F.S. In-Reply-To: <851376.70248.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7806.83996.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> ahhh, that's why I never heard of it before... it was renamed Yeno SC-3000 (or just SC-3000) outside Japan. I know Sega released it in Japan (as Sega SC-3000). I originally believed that Sega's first 4 consoles were Japan only releases (Master System was their 5 console, but first to be released worldwide under the Sega name). This is the 2nd one to be rebadged for outside Japan. I know one of their other consoles was sold by Grandstand (or someone similar) in the UK with their name on it instead of Sega's. Thanks for the link and info. Unfortunately I don't have the space for one :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: I have 2 I've acquired recently. I only want to sell one. 150$ + shipping. look here: http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1096 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 18 17:33:35 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:33:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080118090505.04f9aec0@mail.threedee.com> from "John Foust" at Jan 18, 8 09:10:48 am Message-ID: > > At 05:33 PM 1/17/2008, Richard wrote: > > >In article , > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > >> A Google search for 'Philips P850' (no quotes) finds a few relevant > >> pages, including a picture of me demonstrating said machine. > > > >In true computer geek style, the *computer* is in focus, but Tony is > >not :-). > > Wow, Tony is far younger Rememebr that photo was taken about 8 years ago... > and more stylin' than I imagined. Thats the first time I've ever been called that... > A 'Life' sweater, no doubt autographed on the tag by Conway! YEs. It's actually the classic Gosper Glider Gun, of course. And no it's not autograpped by Prof Conway, and for that matter there's no label for it to be autograhed on. The only bit of classic-computer related stuff I have that is autograpphed is the book 'Automatic Digital Computers', mine is autogrpahed by Professor Wilkes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 18 17:40:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:40:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9845 Microprocessors In-Reply-To: <4790F1DC.4070805@woh.rr.com> from "Micah Mabelitini" at Jan 18, 8 01:37:16 pm Message-ID: > > I'm trying to nail down a few bits of information regarding the various > hybrid microprocessors contained in the earlier versions of the HP 9845. > I recently purchased a large lot of 9845 boards, looks like most of one > machine plus the PPU from a second machine. All told, I have four hybrid > microprocessors. Two are the 107-pin AEC-variant 5061-3001 processor, > one on a revision-A PPU card and one on a revision-B PPU card. The other > two are both mounted on a single card, which is presumably a > pre-bitslice LPU. Of the two processors on this board, one is a > 5061-3010, the other a 5061-3011. From what I understand, the -3010 is > the original hybrid used in the 9825, and I read something somewhere > that lead me to believe the -3011 is a microcode variant of the standard > -3010. Are both of these processors part of the LPU? Most sources refer > to the 9845 having two processors, the PPU and the LPU, and I haven't > found any that say the LPU itself actually consists of two processors. > Is the -3011 just a microcode variant of the -3010? Also, are there any > microcode variations between the -3001 on a revision-A PPU card and one > on a revison-B PPU card? The first thing to be aware of is that the 9845A and the later 9845s (9845B abd 9845C) are _very_ different inside. All have 2 processors, and bus aritration logic to access the various ROM and RAM boards. In the 9845A there is, apparently, one PCB containing the 2 processor hybrid modules and a second PCB contianing the bus swithcing. In the 9845B and 9845C, there are 2 processor boards, each containing one hybrid circuit nad half the us switching logic. I therefore suspect yuor board with 2 hybrids on it is the processor board from a 9845A I've only been inside one 9845. That was a 9845B with the high speed language processor. In that machine, the PPU is a hyrid circuit on a PCB at the left side of the machione. The LPU is a set of 3 boards (basically bus interface, data path, control) with their only little interconnect 'backplane' at the top. One of the boards has edge fingers on the bottom edge, these plug into the main backplane, I believe in place of a single PCB containing a hybrid module for the LPU. There's some information on the 9845B on http://www.hpmuseum.net . There's an HP 'boardwapper guide' which might be useful, and some unofficial schematics of the 9845B and enhanced mono monitor (be warned it's _not_ a simple machine, I think there's a total of over 1000 ICs in that configuration) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 18 17:18:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:18:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VLSI of classic architectures (was Re: 11/70 board set on In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 17, 8 04:33:41 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > A Google search for 'Philips P850' (no quotes) finds a few relevant > > pages, including a picture of me demonstrating said machine. > > In true computer geek style, the *computer* is in focus, but Tony is > not :-). And which do you think most people are more interested in seeing :-) -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 18 18:46:04 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:46:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Grandstand UK was Re: Sega/Yeno In-Reply-To: <7806.83996.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from Andrew Burton at "Jan 19, 8 00:10:05 am" Message-ID: <200801190046.m0J0k5BY016350@floodgap.com> > This is the 2nd one to be rebadged for outside Japan. I know one of their > other consoles was sold by Grandstand (or someone similar) in the UK with > their name on it instead of Sega's. What can you tell me about Grandstand? They rebadged the Tomy Tutor for the UK also, but they seem to be very nebulous and few places reference them other than UK reviews, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. ------------------------------------ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 18 19:39:52 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:39:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Grandstand UK was Re: Sega/Yeno In-Reply-To: <200801190046.m0J0k5BY016350@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2500.29153.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Not a huge amount I'm affraid as it would be from memories I had as a kid (15-20 years ago) and my dad has put all our table-top (TT) games into the attic (along with original boxes) and aren't accessible easily :( I know they released several TT games in the UK and I can't be sure which ones were theirs because we have 20 or so of them: Firefox, Scramble, Cave Man, Munch-Man, a handheld sub game (I think was made by Grandstand or Mastertronic), a Grid Iron (american football for non-US'ers) game (which I'm sure was by Grandstand), plus 3 by Tomytronic and a few others I forget. I also had (sold it years ago) a mini electronic pinball game which I believe Grandstand made too. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is the 2nd one to be rebadged for outside Japan. I know one of their > other consoles was sold by Grandstand (or someone similar) in the UK with > their name on it instead of Sega's. What can you tell me about Grandstand? They rebadged the Tomy Tutor for the UK also, but they seem to be very nebulous and few places reference them other than UK reviews, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. ------------------------------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 20:20:45 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk. In-Reply-To: <478D6900.3080004@jbrain.com> References: <478D6900.3080004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Hi I thought I'd update my progress. I'd modified the board that was intended to run 8 inch disk. I had the binary for the EPROM that ran the 8 inch drive. The board required a crystal change, capacitor change in the PLL and one capacitor in a oneshot. I decompiled the code for the 8 inch disk and found the read needed commands and setup to get it to read the disk. One the 5.25 disk, it justt wasn't working. I wasn't sure what the problem was so I brought out the scope to see if I could look at the data going into the USART. At first I thought it might be a problem of the 5.25s using using a different sync byte. I connected the scope up and wouldn't you know it, the delayed sweep scales I needed to see the first few bits wasn't working correctly. I had to debug the scope first. This took some time because like most scopes, the circuits are hard to access ( unlike older Tek scopes ). It turned out to be a CD4001 IC that wasn't working correctly. Now back to the controller. With the delayed sweep I could now look at the bits entering the USART. It was seeing the same sync bytes as used in the 8 inch drive but I still couldn't read a sector. Of course the calaculations for a 32 sectored hard drive would be different than a 10 sectored 5.25. Still I should be able to read something on the first track. It took me some time to figure it out but I believe I know the problems. The reason I couldn't read any data is that the 8 inch has sync, sync, track, track\, sector, sector\, data, crc. It seems the 5.25 has sync, sync, sector, sector\, track, track\, data, crc. Now I need to blow a new EPROM to fix this. I also need to change how the tracks are calculated. For this, I need a little help. Since the 8 inch drives were 32 sectored, calculating tracks from a disk offset number was easy. 5.25 disk with 10 sectored will require something different. Is there an easy way to to separate track from sector using Z80 code? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 20:34:15 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:34:15 -0500 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: <8d881b737921536bd197900fbbd8521c@mac.com> References: <200801180452.m0I4qpKF018370@floodgap.com> <8d881b737921536bd197900fbbd8521c@mac.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801181834t69d6c6ccyc7b770c6695181aa@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/08, Roger Pugh wrote: > > > >> However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the > >> antics of our government, England is not part of America. > > > > Exactly. England became independent of America in 1776. > > (oh, I love to stir the pot ;-) > > But according to the conspiracy theory people, the USA and everyone in > it still belong to the Queen of England. > :-P > > roger > > Wasn't that a plot on an episode of South Park? ;) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 18 20:48:30 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:48:30 -0800 Subject: *Brand New* Sega/Yeno F.S. In-Reply-To: <851376.70248.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <851376.70248.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 9:54 AM -0800 1/17/08, Chris M wrote: >I have 2 I've acquired recently. I only want to sell >one. 150$ + shipping. > >look here: > >http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1096 Wow! As a big Sega fan, that's seriously cool! Is it PAL or NTSC (somehow I suspect PAL), and what the the power requirements? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 19 10:26:57 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:26:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Grandstand UK was Re: Sega/Yeno In-Reply-To: <2500.29153.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from Andrew Burton at "Jan 19, 8 01:39:52 am" Message-ID: <200801191626.m0JGQvF8017348@floodgap.com> > Not a huge amount I'm affraid as it would be from memories I had as a > kid (15-20 years ago) and my dad has put all our table-top (TT) games into > the attic (along with original boxes) and aren't accessible easily :( What I was trying to find out is, were they simply a Tomy brand/subsidiary, or an actual import-export company, or a UK toy company that just happened to import toys from Tomy? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Business is war. -- Jack Tramiel ------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 19 12:23:10 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:23:10 -0800 Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk. In-Reply-To: <200801191800.m0JI0Z8j025246@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801191800.m0JI0Z8j025246@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4791CF8E.10797.D66FD0D@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 From: dwight elvey > For this, I need a little help. Since the 8 inch drives were 32 sectored, > calculating tracks from a disk offset number was easy. 5.25 disk with 10 > sectored will require something different. Is there an easy way to to > separate track from sector using Z80 code? Dwight Do you mean "is there an easy way to divide by 10?". If so, yes: 0.100x = x/16+x/32+x/256+x/4096+x/8192 to about 0.04 percent (4 parts in 10,000). Truncate the series if you need less accuracy. Ask if you need Z80 code. Cheers, Chuck From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Jan 19 12:43:36 2008 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:43:36 -0000 Subject: PDP 11 rescue. References: <385561.11716.qm@web56209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002e01c85acb$3383dd80$0600a8c0@p2deskto> I may be able to find you a rack and an RL02 or 2. They will be collect from London or Southampton - email me off list for details. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "silvercreekvalley" To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: PDP 11 rescue. > Hi, > > I'm trying to rescue/restore a PDP 11/34A. The > basic CPU looks to be in a good state, its been > stored well. > > What I'd like to do is make up a small 19" rack of > some kind (was this the DEC 'corporate' rack) or > a regular rack if I cant find that, and add a > suitable 11/34A compatible disk drive. I have > a suitable VT. > > The 11/34A has a good selection of tape and disk > interface cards so an RL02 or similar would probably > work fine. > > Does anyone have anything available for sale > or trade in the UK preferably. I can collect of > course. > > I have plenty of PDP QBUS spares for trade if > that's of interest - just no disks or racks. > > Thanks! > > Ian. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1231 - Release Date: 18/01/08 11:55 > > From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 19 13:20:29 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:20:29 -0500 Subject: Disk formatting programs Message-ID: All: I?ve completed the rehab and reconstruction of a CompuPro Disk 1 system for my IMSAI, creating a new system master from scratch. I?ll have a Web page about it up shortly. Anyway, I only have a simple disk formatting program that?s built into the monitor ROM. I?ve heard that some specific versions of CP/M have formatting programs but I can?t locate the source for one that?s appropriate for the Disk 1 controller (which is based on the 8272 VLSI). I can make the ROM version into a simple COM file, but I thought I?d poll the group before building it myself. Does anyone have the source code or a pointer to one? Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jan 19 13:41:17 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting project... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently ran into a kid that has a "new" classic computer that he built himself. See http://kaput.homeunix.org/ It's an 8080 based computer with a full front panel. He designed and assembled it himself. All the boards are put together using point to point wiring using wire-wrap sized wire, all soldered. It's pretty damn neat. He's only 20 too. It's nice to see that he won't be counted among the people that think building a computer involves dropping some cards into a PC clone motherboard. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 19 13:51:16 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting project... In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Jan 19, 8 11:41:17 am" Message-ID: <200801191951.m0JJpG6L010136@floodgap.com> > I recently ran into a kid that has a "new" classic computer that he built > himself. > > See http://kaput.homeunix.org/ > > It's an 8080 based computer with a full front panel. He designed and > assembled it himself. All the boards are put together using point to > point wiring using wire-wrap sized wire, all soldered. It's pretty damn > neat. He's only 20 too. It's nice to see that he won't be counted among > the people that think building a computer involves dropping some cards > into a PC clone motherboard. :) He also did a very amusing cover of the Portal Song (the ending theme Still Alive), performed by a C64 SID. The SID adaptation is so-so but if you've ever seen the end game, the displays are pretty much spot-on (even the ASCII art). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLS35kyYlOU -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jan 19 14:12:59 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:12:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting project... In-Reply-To: <200801191951.m0JJpG6L010136@floodgap.com> References: <200801191951.m0JJpG6L010136@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >> See http://kaput.homeunix.org/ >> >> It's an 8080 based computer with a full front panel. He designed and >> assembled it himself. All the boards are put together using point to >> point wiring using wire-wrap sized wire, all soldered. It's pretty damn >> neat. He's only 20 too. It's nice to see that he won't be counted among >> the people that think building a computer involves dropping some cards >> into a PC clone motherboard. :) > > He also did a very amusing cover of the Portal Song (the ending theme > Still Alive), performed by a C64 SID. The SID adaptation is so-so but if > you've ever seen the end game, the displays are pretty much spot-on (even > the ASCII art). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLS35kyYlOU The cool thing about that is that the SID is living on another hand-wired perf board sitting on the scratch built backplane he made, being driven by a program running on the 8080. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 15:01:25 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:01:25 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- In-Reply-To: <4791CF8E.10797.D66FD0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801191800.m0JI0Z8j025246@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4791CF8E.10797.D66FD0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > >> For this, I need a little help. Since the 8 inch drives were 32 sectored, >> calculating tracks from a disk offset number was easy. 5.25 disk with 10 >> sectored will require something different. Is there an easy way to to >> separate track from sector using Z80 code? Dwight > > Do you mean "is there an easy way to divide by 10?". If so, yes: > > 0.100x = x/16+x/32+x/256+x/4096+x/8192 > > to about 0.04 percent (4 parts in 10,000). Truncate the series if > you need less accuracy. Ask if you need Z80 code. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi Chuck I'm not sure how effective that would be in Z80 code. It looks like I'd at least need to do 32 bit coding to keep track of things. I'd still need to calculate the remainder when done( I need both ). The maximum sector index would be 800 decimal. I came up with the following code to do this all in Z80 code but I'm interested both compact and fast, with more emphasis on compact. Here is the code I've made so far: ; hl is value to be divided by 10 ; max hl will be 800 ; uses a, bc, de and hl ; returns a = quotient ; h = remainder ; uses 42 bytes div10: xor a ld bc -640d ld de 640d call div10s call div10s call div10s call div10s call div10s call div10s call div10s add hl,hl ret div10s: add a,a add hl,bc jp c,div10s1 add hl,de jp div10s2 div10s1: inc a div10s2: add hl,hl ret After the first two calls, I could do the rest as byte operations but I think the total byte cost would be greater. I'm looking for other ideas on smaller code. It would be nice to hace one more 8 bit register as a counter. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jan 19 15:36:49 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:36:49 -0500 Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk Message-ID: <01C85AB9.7EE2C6E0@mandr71> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 From: dwight elvey Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk. >Is there an easy way to separate track from sector using Z80 code? >Dwight ---------- Might be easier in hardware with a monostable or two; if you're interested, the Vector Graphic 10 sector HS Micropolis FDC manual on Howard's site might be a useful read (schematics, timing diagrams, etc.): http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Vector%20Graphics/ Vector_Micropolis_Disk_Controller_Tech_Manual.pdf mike From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Jan 19 16:22:02 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:52:02 +1030 Subject: Interesting project... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9941e6ae963c5043883aba3e895b8f91@kaput.homeunix.org> On 20/01/2008, at 6:11 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I recently ran into a kid that has a "new" classic computer that he > built himself. > > See http://kaput.homeunix.org/ Dammit that's on my 64k Uplink! *scrambles to find adequate hosting* From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jan 19 17:07:00 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:07:00 -0600 Subject: IBM RT 6150? Message-ID: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, books, etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run ____," etc?) It's cheap, but it will have to be shipped, which may not be cheap. -- j From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jan 19 17:37:46 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:37:46 -0600 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479289CA.4010207@brutman.com> Jason T wrote: > Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, books, > etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any > opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run > ____," etc?) > > It's cheap, but it will have to be shipped, which may not be cheap. > In a nutshell, it's IBM's first RISC machine. Except it is much slower than what most people associate with RISC machines. I'd get one in a heartbeat .. I used to use these beasts at work. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Jan 19 18:19:55 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:49:55 +1030 Subject: Interesting project... In-Reply-To: <9941e6ae963c5043883aba3e895b8f91@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <9941e6ae963c5043883aba3e895b8f91@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On 20/01/2008, at 8:52 AM, Alexis wrote: > On 20/01/2008, at 6:11 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> I recently ran into a kid that has a "new" classic computer that he >> built himself. >> >> See http://kaput.homeunix.org/ > > Dammit that's on my 64k Uplink! > > *scrambles to find adequate hosting* > > http://kaput.retroarchive.org/~kaput Thanks Gene! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Jan 19 18:18:40 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:18:40 -0800 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Jason T wrote: > Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, books, > etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any > opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run > ____," etc?) > > It's cheap, but it will have to be shipped, which may not be cheap. > > A lot of the stuff that was available from IBM has been posted in archives that can be found with some searching. Just be prepared to support a machine with a 1.2MB high density floppy habit, and a 60 or 150mb quarter inch tape habit. I have all my machines, software and drives "archived" and can't help much but they are nice machines. Only thing to watch for is whether it has 40mb or 110mb drives (or even 20mb). They used the seagates st whatevers, which might be a bit scarce these days. I heard rumors that one could get ide controllers to work in them, but a fire put a halt to my playing as I lost all but 2 of the boxes, and spares. AIX 2.1 and AOS are the two OS's to look for. Jim From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 19 19:16:08 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:16:08 -0800 Subject: are IBM RS/6000 40-bit 72-pin SIMMS ECC standard? Message-ID: I have some 16MB IBM "40-bit" memory modules out of an RS/6000 (the 7012/370 or 7030/3CT compatible type). Roy's looking for some ECC SIMMS for a RAID controller. Does anyone know if these are standard ECC or proprietary? I know they are a different pinout than 32 or 36- bit 72-pin SIMMs. I've heard proprietary, same as the HP-9000 memory modules (very hard to believe looking at the ones that go in my C180), and standard ECC SIMMS - and they can't all be right. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jan 19 19:38:32 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:38:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting project... In-Reply-To: References: <9941e6ae963c5043883aba3e895b8f91@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: >> > > http://kaput.retroarchive.org/~kaput > > Thanks Gene! You're quite welcome. It doesn't use the ~kaput. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 19 20:19:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:19:33 -0500 Subject: are IBM RS/6000 40-bit 72-pin SIMMS ECC standard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801192119.33257.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 19 January 2008 20:16, Scott Quinn wrote: > I have some 16MB IBM "40-bit" memory modules out of an RS/6000 (the > 7012/370 or 7030/3CT compatible type). Roy's looking for some ECC > SIMMS for a RAID controller. The RAID card is a DPT PM3334UW, which the book tells me will accept ECC parts. I have 4 non-parity 16s in there now, but... > Does anyone know if these are standard ECC or proprietary? I know they are a > different pinout than 32 or 36- bit 72-pin SIMMs. I wouldn't mind finding some sort of a cabinet that'll accept a bunch of drives, either, if somebody has a lead on one. Or 68-wire SCSI cables that have a lot of connectors on them, which don't seem too common either... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 19 20:39:02 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:39:02 -0800 Subject: Looking for old issues of Datamation, late 60's with Fairchild/SEL Advertisement Message-ID: <4792B446.5040905@bitsavers.org> > Somewhere around '68 there was an Ad by Fairchild semiconductor showing >a SEL minicomputer. I've updated http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sel with a bunch more manuals, and some Datamation SEL ads from 1965 and 1967. I didn't see any Fairchild ads in 1968 or 69 showing a SEL machine. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jan 19 22:25:57 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:25:57 -0500 Subject: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed. Message-ID: <200801192325.57982.pat@computer-refuge.org> It looks like in order to get VMS running on my 11/780, I'll need to find install media for an older version than what I have now. VMS 6.2 seems to be the newest version that will run. Either a CD image or tape image should work; CD image is preferred. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jan 19 23:13:43 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:13:43 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 diagnostics needed Message-ID: <200801200013.43174.pat@computer-refuge.org> I also would like to find the diagnostics for my 11/780. Either an IMD image of the RX01 or the actual files off the floppy would work best. Thanks! Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 23:31:40 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:31:40 -0800 Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk In-Reply-To: <01C85AB9.7EE2C6E0@mandr71> References: <01C85AB9.7EE2C6E0@mandr71> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk. > > >>Is there an easy way to separate track from sector using Z80 code? >>Dwight > > ---------- > Might be easier in hardware with a monostable or two; if you're interested, > the Vector Graphic 10 sector HS Micropolis FDC manual on Howard's site > might be a useful read (schematics, timing diagrams, etc.): > > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Vector%20Graphics/ > Vector_Micropolis_Disk_Controller_Tech_Manual.pdf > Hi Mike I already have a index, sector seporator. I built it with a 7438, 7414 and 2 555's. It works fine. One could use a single 556 but 555s are easier to find. What I mean is that the disk has index into the disk as 0 to 799 sectors. The disk is 10 sectors so one needs to divide this index by 10 to get the track number and the remainder is the sector number. The original code handle a 32 sectored disk. Because 32 is a power of 2, doing the calculations were much easier. Divide by 10 is not as easy. See my next post. If anyone wants a schematic of my index, sector pulse seporator, I can scan it and send it out. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Sun Jan 20 00:20:43 2008 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Lorraine Offord & Tony Wills) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:20:43 +1300 Subject: SC/MP Message-ID: <006e01c85b2c$98ee45a0$6402a8c0@ATHLON> In case anyone is interested ;-), I have moved my echo of Sipke de Wal's old website (xgistor.ath.cx) to http://www.xgistor-echo.mydyn.net (I had hosted it at xgistor-echo.ath.cx for two years but they seemed to want people to pay after two years free dns routing). (for those who hadn't seen it - He had a big collection of datasheets, emulators etc, and some stuff about SC/MP processor and TI-59 calculator that I haven't seen elsewhere) -- Tony (no, not *that* Tony, another one :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 00:33:15 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:33:15 -0500 Subject: are IBM RS/6000 40-bit 72-pin SIMMS ECC standard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4792EB2B.1000206@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > I have some 16MB IBM "40-bit" memory modules out of an RS/6000 (the > 7012/370 or 7030/3CT compatible type). Roy's looking for some ECC SIMMS > for a RAID controller. Does anyone know if these are standard ECC or > proprietary? I know they are a different pinout than 32 or 36-bit 72-pin > SIMMs. Nope. Completely incompatible with anything other than the machine they came from, as well as a few others. I have full compatibility specifications, if you need them. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 20 01:28:38 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:28:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: SC/MP In-Reply-To: <006e01c85b2c$98ee45a0$6402a8c0@ATHLON> References: <006e01c85b2c$98ee45a0$6402a8c0@ATHLON> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Lorraine Offord & Tony Wills wrote: > In case anyone is interested ;-), I have moved my echo of Sipke de Wal's old > website (xgistor.ath.cx) to http://www.xgistor-echo.mydyn.net (I had hosted > it at xgistor-echo.ath.cx for two years but they seemed to want people to > pay after two years free dns routing). > > (for those who hadn't seen it - He had a big collection of datasheets, > emulators etc, and some stuff about SC/MP processor and TI-59 calculator > that I haven't seen elsewhere) I have a book on building a computer from an SC/MP that's due to go on ebay Sunday evening. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 11:49:23 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:49:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <319606.65489.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I feel I should know the answer to this. I really feel I should have the answer. Especially since I have a program I downloaded off of sourceforge some months ago that allows me to accomplish a *similar* task. I want to be able to save videos like this one (and a good many others I see on youtube). Can anyone recommend a program, preferably a free one. Moochis gracias. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From vze323vd at verizon.net Fri Jan 18 04:03:48 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (vze323vd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:03:48 -0500 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > > I received this inquiry via another mailing list. I think it's legit. > > > They're coming to the USA looking for "quirky" people. Might there > > > be a classic computer collector they should feature? > > > > I dunno if "quirky" is offensive. But I think Tony Duell would be a > > great guy to be interviewed :oD > > Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I would agree that I am certainly > eccentric. And I don't find being regards as eccentric as offensive (the > truth is rarely offensive!) > > However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the > antics of our government, England is not part of America. > > -tony > Evan Koblentz would be one I would nominate or Bill Degnan is another. Greg From pludikar at sympatico.ca Sat Jan 19 07:54:15 2008 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:54:15 -0500 Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD Message-ID: Hi, I've been trying to create a working Sony MPF50W (as found in the HP1650B logic analyser) from 2 damaged units. One unit had a fried board and the other unit had physically damaged heads. I moved the heads and track 0 sensor from the fried board to the other board and I need to do 2 things: a) confirm that the "new" heads are actually working and b) realign the track 0 sensor. I'm reasonably sure that the heads are okay, they show continuity on some of the pins, but I'm not 100% certain that is what I should be expecting. I can't find any obvious sources of information on where to probe to see useful signals from the heads or find any procedure to align the sensor. I have Tony Duel's diagrams of the HP9114 from hpmuseum.net . Any suggestions on where to find this information or how go about this would be really appreciated. Many thanks Peter From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 19 09:47:54 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:47:54 -0500 Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD Message-ID: <0JUW0040CDZ5S7H2@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD > From: "Peter" > Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:54:15 -0500 > To: > >Hi, >I've been trying to create a working Sony MPF50W (as found in the HP1650B >logic analyser) from 2 damaged units. One unit had a fried board and the >other unit had physically damaged heads. I moved the heads and track 0 >sensor from the fried board to the other board and I need to do 2 things: a) >confirm that the "new" heads are actually working and b) realign the track 0 >sensor. I'm reasonably sure that the heads are okay, they show continuity >on some of the pins, but I'm not 100% certain that is what I should be >expecting. I can't find any obvious sources of information on where to >probe to see useful signals from the heads or find any procedure to align >the sensor. I have Tony Duel's diagrams of the HP9114 from hpmuseum.net . >Any suggestions on where to find this information or how go about this would >be really appreciated. > >Many thanks >Peter Most heads have two sets of windings. One for trim erase and a second for read/write. The organization varies but the trim is two pins or have one pin in common with R/W and the RW is often a centertapped winding (three wires) so you should see three connections of near zero ohms and a pair that are also near zero OR 4 pins that show near zero (common wire case). The test for alignment usually requires a calibration disk and scope but I've done it by doing reads of a known good disk and "finding the edges" and setting it for the middle. Track 00 is usually less critical so if it happens when the head out and you can boot or read the disk thats usually good enough. Allison From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 17:13:27 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:13:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: *Brand New* Sega/Yeno F.S. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <392704.82773.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Oi not sure! I think it's *weird* LOL LOL. I guess I will have to pull one out of the box. These came from Australia mate. --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 9:54 AM -0800 1/17/08, Chris M wrote: > >I have 2 I've acquired recently. I only want to > sell > >one. 150$ + shipping. > > > >look here: > > > >http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1096 > > Wow! As a big Sega fan, that's seriously cool! Is > it PAL or NTSC > (somehow I suspect PAL), and what the the power > requirements? > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems > Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS > Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic > Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role > Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer > Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ > | > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From brendle at ems.psu.edu Sat Jan 19 20:09:30 2008 From: brendle at ems.psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:09:30 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: Yeah. I'd pick one up if you're interested. the ROMP chip was not much of a speed demon, but it is granddaddy to the RS6k and all that followed after. And also remember that these things used funky ESDI drives, I think mostly Maxstor, I think they topped out at 320MB. Several quirks too about that ESDI, not everything could be made to work. I remember Ungermann-Bass thick ethernet cards and of course Token Ring were options. The megapixel console monitor had real slow graphics but it could use a Hercules card. The terminal cards had odd AMP connectors on 'em I think. Ideally you get one with the slightly faster cpu card that had added the moto fpu. Nifty toy to play with. AOS is a relatively pure 4.3 port but that might be harder to come by. Good luck! On Jan 19, 2008, at 7:18 PM, jim s wrote: > Jason T wrote: >> Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, >> books, >> etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any >> opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run >> ____," etc?) >> >> It's cheap, but it will have to be shipped, which may not be cheap. >> >> > A lot of the stuff that was available from IBM has been posted in > archives that can be found with some searching. Just be prepared to > support a machine with a 1.2MB high density floppy habit, and a 60 > or 150mb quarter inch tape habit. I have all my machines, software > and drives "archived" and can't help much but they are nice machines. > > Only thing to watch for is whether it has 40mb or 110mb drives (or > even 20mb). They used the seagates st whatevers, which might be a > bit scarce these days. > > I heard rumors that one could get ide controllers to work in them, > but a fire put a halt to my playing as I lost all but 2 of the > boxes, and spares. > > AIX 2.1 and AOS are the two OS's to look for. > > Jim Jeff Brendle Office: 313 EESB/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 Desktop Support Spv. Home: 146 Haverford Circle Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)238-8811 Mailto:bli at psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jan 20 04:38:39 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:38:39 -0000 Subject: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed. In-Reply-To: <200801192325.57982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <003001c85b50$9fccce90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like in order to get VMS running on my 11/780, I'll need to > find install media for an older version than what I have now. VMS 6.2 > seems to be the newest version that will run. V6.2 might be the latest supported version, but I suspect that they didn't do anything actively to make V7 fall over in a heap: they jus stopped spending the time and effort (== money) to make sure they could guarantee that both the remaining VAX-11/780 customers could continue to enjoy full support :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: 19/01/2008 18:37 From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jan 20 05:38:49 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:38:49 -0500 Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk Message-ID: <01C85B2F.4F764280@mandr71> ----------Original Message: Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:31:40 -0800 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk > From: dm561 at torfree.net > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: Reading Polymorphic double density double sided disk. > > >>Is there an easy way to separate track from sector using Z80 code? >>Dwight > > ---------- > Might be easier in hardware with a monostable or two; if you're interested, > the Vector Graphic 10 sector HS Micropolis FDC manual on Howard's site > might be a useful read (schematics, timing diagrams, etc.): > > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Vector%20Graphics/ > Vector_Micropolis_Disk_Controller_Tech_Manual.pdf > Hi Mike I already have a index, sector seporator. I built it with a 7438, 7414 and 2 555's. It works fine. One could use a single 556 but 555s are easier to find. What I mean is that the disk has index into the disk as 0 to 799 sectors. The disk is 10 sectors so one needs to divide this index by 10 to get the track number and the remainder is the sector number. The original code handle a 32 sectored disk. Because 32 is a power of 2, doing the calculations were much easier. Divide by 10 is not as easy. See my next post. If anyone wants a schematic of my index, sector pulse seporator, I can scan it and send it out. Dwight -----------Reply: Oops; careless reading on my part; I'd read "separate *index* from sector," instead of "track." Probably because I've been playing with the opposite, generating HS sector pulses from the index, also with 555s... mike From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Jan 20 06:33:34 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:33:34 -0800 Subject: Interesting search on Flickr (really it is on topic) Message-ID: <47933F9E.8080701@msm.umr.edu> I didn't realize I had a lot of time to kill tonight and put in "interdata" into flickr.com's search. It hits photos taken at a 2005 reunion which apparently was for Interdata, Perkin Elmer, and Concurrent ex employees. Probably from someone on this list, though the name didn't ring a bell. I won't post it here for privacy's sake in case the people who are mentioned would like not to be spammed. There are some nice photos of vintage equipment in the pile, which leads to other photo collections ... I have seen others mention lists for Dec equipment as well, but had not seen Interdata mentioned or searched for. Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 06:48:19 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:48:19 -0500 Subject: Quirky computer collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47934313.5070100@gmail.com> vze323vd wrote: >>>> I received this inquiry via another mailing list. I think it's legit. >>>> They're coming to the USA looking for "quirky" people. Might there >>>> be a classic computer collector they should feature? >>> I dunno if "quirky" is offensive. But I think Tony Duell would be a >>> great guy to be interviewed :oD >> Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I would agree that I am certainly >> eccentric. And I don't find being regards as eccentric as offensive (the >> truth is rarely offensive!) >> >> However, there is one slight problem. I am in England. And dispite the >> antics of our government, England is not part of America. >> >> -tony >> > > Evan Koblentz would be one I would nominate or Bill Degnan is another. Neither of whom are particularly quirky people. You need to get out more. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 20 08:47:00 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:47:00 -0500 Subject: Looking for old issues of Datamation, late 60's with Fairchild/SEL Advertisement In-Reply-To: <4792B446.5040905@bitsavers.org> References: <4792B446.5040905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <47935EE4.5060104@comcast.net> thanks Al ! I'll take a look. The year might be still in question regarding the Fairchild Ad I think the guys gave me a ballpark estimate. =Dan Al Kossow wrote: > > Somewhere around '68 there was an Ad by Fairchild semiconductor showing > >a SEL minicomputer. > > I've updated http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sel > with a bunch more manuals, and some Datamation SEL ads > from 1965 and 1967. > > I didn't see any Fairchild ads in 1968 or 69 showing a SEL machine. > > > > From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 20 09:25:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:25:00 -0500 Subject: Interesting search on Flickr (really it is on topic) Message-ID: <200801201525.m0KFPJLo078047@keith.ezwind.net> Interdata / PE / Concurrent - which I think recently was bought by yet another company - is only a few miles away from the museum where we hold VCF East. Haven't picked a date yet for 2008, but if there's interest then we can probably get a lecture from our contact there. They donated a bunch of hardware to us. -----Original Message----- From: jim s Subj: Interesting search on Flickr (really it is on topic) Date: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:37 am Size: 638 bytes To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" I didn't realize I had a lot of time to kill tonight and put in "interdata" into flickr.com's search. It hits photos taken at a 2005 reunion which apparently was for Interdata, Perkin Elmer, and Concurrent ex employees. Probably from someone on this list, though the name didn't ring a bell. I won't post it here for privacy's sake in case the people who are mentioned would like not to be spammed. There are some nice photos of vintage equipment in the pile, which leads to other photo collections ... I have seen others mention lists for Dec equipment as well, but had not seen Interdata mentioned or searched for. Jim From bert at brothom.nl Sun Jan 20 10:08:58 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:08:58 +0100 Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc In-Reply-To: <2597114.1200599917408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <2597114.1200599917408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4793721A.8080507@brothom.nl> I never knew that an ASR-33 had a bell like an old typewriter to indicate that your near the end of the line. Funny! The computers probably had a special microphone to hear it when printing a directory listing :-) From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Jan 20 10:20:12 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:20:12 -0500 Subject: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed. In-Reply-To: <200801192325.57982.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200801192325.57982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <479374BC.2050404@atarimuseum.com> Patrick, I've got a couple of copies of 5.4 or 5.5 (I'd need to doublecheck) on TK50's if you've got the adapter and drive connected to boot from a TK... Curt Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like in order to get VMS running on my 11/780, I'll need to > find install media for an older version than what I have now. VMS 6.2 > seems to be the newest version that will run. > > Either a CD image or tape image should work; CD image is preferred. > > Pat > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 20 10:32:17 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:32:17 -0500 Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc In-Reply-To: <4793721A.8080507@brothom.nl> References: <2597114.1200599917408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4793721A.8080507@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <47937791.5040806@comcast.net> press cntrl +G Bert Thomas wrote: > I never knew that an ASR-33 had a bell like an old typewriter to > indicate that your near the end of the line. Funny! The computers > probably had a special microphone to hear it when printing a directory > listing :-) > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 11:02:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:02:20 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- In-Reply-To: References: <200801191800.m0JI0Z8j025246@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4791CF8E.10797.D66FD0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > > >> From: cclist at sydex.com >> >> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:20:45 -0800 >> From: dwight elvey >> >>> For this, I need a little help. Since the 8 inch drives were 32 sectored, >>> calculating tracks from a disk offset number was easy. 5.25 disk with 10 >>> sectored will require something different. Is there an easy way to to >>> separate track from sector using Z80 code? Dwight >> >> Do you mean "is there an easy way to divide by 10?". If so, yes: >> >> 0.100x = x/16+x/32+x/256+x/4096+x/8192 >> >> to about 0.04 percent (4 parts in 10,000). Truncate the series if >> you need less accuracy. Ask if you need Z80 code. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > > Hi Chuck > I'm not sure how effective that would be in Z80 code. It looks > like I'd at least need to do 32 bit coding to keep track of things. > I'd still need to calculate the remainder when done( I need both ). > The maximum sector index would be 800 decimal. I came up > with the following code to do this all in Z80 code but I'm interested > both compact and fast, with more emphasis on compact. > Here is the code I've made so far: > > ; hl is value to be divided by 10 > ; max hl will be 800 > ; uses a, bc, de and hl > ; returns a = quotient > ; h = remainder > ; uses 42 bytes > > div10: > xor a > ld bc -640d > ld de 640d > call div10s > call div10s > call div10s > call div10s > call div10s > call div10s > call div10s > add hl,hl > ret > > div10s: > add a,a > add hl,bc > jp c,div10s1 > add hl,de > jp div10s2 > div10s1: > inc a > div10s2: > add hl,hl > ret > > After the first two calls, I could do the rest as byte operations > but I think the total byte cost would be greater. > I'm looking for other ideas on smaller code. It would be nice > to hace one more 8 bit register as a counter. > Dwight > Hi Pete Turnbull sent some suggestions and here is what we have now. It trades a little speed for size but the inner loop is faster As I stated, faster is good but smaller is better. Any more help would be great: Next try at code: div10: xor a ld de,#-640d ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d ld b,#7 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 800/10 divloop: call div10s ; divide steps djnz divloop add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL ret div10s: add a,a ; 2*a add hl,de ; trial subtract jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear dec a ; to nullify the following inc div10s1: inc a ; add to quotient add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal ret This is 23 bytes and looks good. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 20 12:04:51 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:04:51 -0500 Subject: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed. In-Reply-To: <003001c85b50$9fccce90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <003001c85b50$9fccce90$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200801201304.51090.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 20 January 2008 05:38, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > It looks like in order to get VMS running on my 11/780, I'll need > > to find install media for an older version than what I have now. > > VMS 6.2 seems to be the newest version that will run. > > V6.2 might be the latest supported version, but I suspect that they > didn't do anything actively to make V7 fall over in a heap: they > jus stopped spending the time and effort (== money) to make > sure they could guarantee that both the remaining VAX-11/780 > customers could continue to enjoy full support :-) In that case (I seem to have confirmed with simh's 11/780 simulator that 7.2 should boot), I probably need to locate and run some CPU diagnostics... For anyone who's interested, this is what happens when I try and boot the 7.2 hobbyist cd (attached to an Emulex UC18 that came with my other VAX), getting one of the three errors below: ------------------------------- >>>HALT CPU HALTED >>>UNJAM >>>INIT INIT SEQ DONE >>>D /I 11 20003800 >>>D R0 11 >>>D R1 3 >>>D R2 3F468 >>>D R3 1 >>>D R4 0 >>>D R5 10000000 >>>D FP 0 >>>START 20003000 HALT INST EXECUTED HALTED AT 20003552 >>>E SP G 0000000E 00000200 >>>L VMB.EXE/S:@ LOAD DONE, 00007200 BYTES LOADED >>>S @ %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check HALT INST EXECUTED HALTED AT 00000029 ------------------------------- %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk HALT INST EXECUTED HALTED AT 00000003 ------------------------------- Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From djg at pdp8.net Sun Jan 20 12:07:03 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:07:03 -0500 Subject: VT01 (yes, 01) manuals? Message-ID: <200801201807.m0KI73k10431@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >Are there any pictures around of the 601 or 611? >(was one of them a rectangular storage scope with an "erase" button?) >-brad > There are now. Hadn't realized that my vintage computer festival east 2007 pictures weren't online. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe07/pics/DSCF0038.shtml From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 20 12:08:52 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:08:52 -0600 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47938E34.9090502@mdrconsult.com> Jason T wrote: > Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, books, > etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any > opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run > ____," etc?) > > It's cheap, but it will have to be shipped, which may not be cheap. Cheap will not be the word. My RT weighs nearly 75 pounds, and that's *without* the full-height ESDI drives. If you can find an ISA IDE/FDC card without serial and parallel and without PC "BIOS entensions", a Seagate IDE Medalist under 2GB will work fine. I've got one running in mine. My RT has got the advanced processor board, and it's about as fast as you'd expect from a 16MHz/16MB computer running a fairly heavyweight OS, AIX v2.2.1. Make sure you get the keyboard, at least. It's a proprietary interface, and I've never heard of anyone adapting a different keyboard for it. Same for the mouse, and if you happen to get 2, I get dibs on the spare! :) The story I got from an IBM developer is that the PC/RT was ready for market in 1981, but for some reason IBM did not release it till '86. By then it was mostly outclassed by the competition and its own price, so IBM didn't sell many of them. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 20 12:07:58 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:07:58 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 diagnostics needed In-Reply-To: <200801200013.43174.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200801200013.43174.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200801201307.59017.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 20 January 2008 00:13, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I also would like to find the diagnostics for my 11/780. Either an > IMD image of the RX01 or the actual files off the floppy would work > best. I guess I can add the names of the ones I'm looking for: EVKAA Hardcore Instruction Test ESKAB - ESKAM Microdiagnostics ESXBA Bus Interaction Diagnostic ESXBB VAX System Diagnostic ESCAA Unibus Adapter Diagnostic Those should give me a good start into figuring out what's wrong, hopefully. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Gary at realtimecomp.com Sun Jan 20 13:28:32 2008 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:28:32 -0800 Subject: VAX 11/780 diagnostics needed In-Reply-To: References: <200801200013.43174.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A3CF@server1.RealTime.local> > On Sunday 20 January 2008 00:13, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I also would like to find the diagnostics for my 11/780. Either an > > IMD image of the RX01 or the actual files off the floppy would work > > best. > > I guess I can add the names of the ones I'm looking for: > > EVKAA Hardcore Instruction Test > ESKAB - ESKAM Microdiagnostics > ESXBA Bus Interaction Diagnostic > ESXBB VAX System Diagnostic > ESCAA Unibus Adapter Diagnostic > > Those should give me a good start into figuring out what's wrong, > hopefully. > Pat, Around 4 years or so ago, I sent Megan Gentry an almost complete set of 11/780 Diags on RX01 with the thought she would make them available. (I don't have any Vaxen.) You might check with her. I still have a spreadsheet of what disks I sent to her if you're interested in that. Gary From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 20 13:59:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:59:15 -0800 Subject: : Divide 10 bits by 10. In-Reply-To: <200801201042.m0KAfm1i034370@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801201042.m0KAfm1i034370@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47933793.4082.12E552C2@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:01:25 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > I'm not sure how effective that would be in Z80 code. It looks > like I'd at least need to do 32 bit coding to keep track of things. > I'd still need to calculate the remainder when done( I need both ). > The maximum sector index would be 800 decimal. Ah, then it's easy: ;* Divide 10 bits by 10. ; --------------------- ; ; Input in (HL) ; ; Quotient in (A), remainder in (L). ; Div10by10: ld de,(10 shl 6) ; divisor ld bc,0701h ; iteration count + 1 for xor xor a ; quotient Dtbt2: xor c ; assume set sbc hl,de ; subtract jr nc,Dbt4 ; if no carryout add hl,de ; add back xor c ; clear the bit Dbt4: rr d ; (carry is clear) rr e ; shift divisor add a,a ; shift quotient djnz dbt2 ; loop rra ; correct quotient ret ; a = quotient, l = remainder That will do it for values of a divident up to 1023. The algorithm can be extended somewhat by shifting the value of 10 left more places and increasing the number of iterations. I haven't tested it out on real hardware, but it should work. I've also got a divide 32-bits by 10 along the same line, if you're interested. It's fairly deterministic in terms of cycles; i.e., there's not a lot of difference in timing between a dividends of 0 and 799. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 20 14:27:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:27:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: <319606.65489.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <319606.65489.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Chris M wrote: > I feel I should know the answer to this. I really feel > I should have the answer. Especially since I have a > program I downloaded off of sourceforge some months > ago that allows me to accomplish a *similar* task. I > want to be able to save videos like this one (and a > good many others I see on youtube). Can anyone > recommend a program, preferably a free one. Moochis gracias. If you specifically want the vacuum tube video, go here: http://paillard.claude.free.fr/ Google for "firefox "video downloader"" to find that program. You can also try http://www.keepvid.com/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 20 15:20:39 2008 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:39 -0000 Subject: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed. In-Reply-To: <479374BC.2050404@atarimuseum.com> References: <200801192325.57982.pat@computer-refuge.org> <479374BC.2050404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <000001c85baa$4f6f20b0$ee4d6210$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I'm not sure about the legal situation, but I think it would be worth making a copy on some other media before the TK50s become unreadable. Regards Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: 20 January 2008 16:20 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed. Patrick, I've got a couple of copies of 5.4 or 5.5 (I'd need to doublecheck) on TK50's if you've got the adapter and drive connected to boot from a TK... Curt Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like in order to get VMS running on my 11/780, I'll need to > find install media for an older version than what I have now. VMS 6.2 > seems to be the newest version that will run. > > Either a CD image or tape image should work; CD image is preferred. > > Pat > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 20 13:45:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:45:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: from "Peter" at Jan 19, 8 08:54:15 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > I've been trying to create a working Sony MPF50W (as found in the HP1650B Isd this one of the half-height units using many of the same parts as an Apple 800K drive? In other words similar to the drive used in the HP9114B? > logic analyser) from 2 damaged units. One unit had a fried board and the What was fried? I think, given the choice, I'd have prefered to keep the mechanics untouched (thus avoiding alignement problems) and chan ged components on the PCB. > other unit had physically damaged heads. I moved the heads and track 0 In theory if you change the heads, you need to do a radial alignment -- what most people mean by 'aligning a floppy drive). That said, I've replaced the heads in a full-height Sony (as used in the 9114A), put the alignment disk in and found it _well_ within spec. Maybe I was lucky, or maybe, as I suuspect knowing Sony, the units are made to a high degree of precision anyway. > sensor from the fried board to the other board and I need to do 2 things: a) > confirm that the "new" heads are actually working and b) realign the track 0 One thing worth rememebring : Almost all the adjustments are 'interchenagablity adjustments' to make the disks used in that drive compatible with others. If they're off, the drive can still format, read and write its own disks. So take a blank disk and try to format it. If it formats and verifies OK, or if it fails on the innermost few cylinders only (maybe the track 0 sensor is so far off that the innermost cylinders are 'off the end of the disk), then the heads are working. If it doens't, you've got other faults to find. > sensor. I'm reasonably sure that the heads are okay, they show continuity > on some of the pins, but I'm not 100% certain that is what I should be If this is one of the drives covered in 'my' diagrams, I'll have shown the head connections there. A head winding will test as a very low resistance (dead short) on a meter. Just about the only thing that's not connected to anything lese is the screen (shield) The full-height Sony drives have the head switching diodes on the flexiprint to the heads, which might confuse your tests. The half-height ones have sepearate head tails from each head ans the swtiching diodes on the main PCB. > expecting. I can't find any obvious sources of information on where to > probe to see useful signals from the heads or find any procedure to align If this is the drive I think it is, the analogue circuity is in one big ASIC. There's an LC filter circuit hung off that. looking at 2 'equivalent' pins of that with a differential-input 'scope will show the head signal. The normal way to alignt the track 0 sensor involves the euse of a drive exerchiser. What you do is move the sensor right out (to prevent it stopping theh eads from stepping out when they get to what thr drive things is track 0,), then, with 'standard' formatted disk in the drive, step out until the signal is lost (that's one cylinder past track 0), step in once, and move the sensor in until it just triggers. Then make sure that the track0 signal is asserted on track 0 and not on track 1. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 20 14:08:57 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:08:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc In-Reply-To: <4793721A.8080507@brothom.nl> from "Bert Thomas" at Jan 20, 8 05:08:58 pm Message-ID: > > I never knew that an ASR-33 had a bell like an old typewriter to > indicate that your near the end of the line. Funny! The computers > probably had a special microphone to hear it when printing a directory > listing :-) I though the 'end of line' trigger for the bell was actually an option, but that all Model 33s (RO, KSR, ASR) had the bell which was mechanically triggered by a ^G character. The Mdoel 43 (smaller, mostly electronic) has a mschanical bell, operated by a solenoid I cna't rememebr if that responds ot end-of-line, or just ^G. Many of the UK-made Creed teleprintes (5 level code) have a pair of contacts which close when the approriate 'bell' character is received. They were used to swtich and external electric bell or buzzer. Oh yes, the VT50 series of DEC terminals have a little relay on the logic board. It'spulsed to geenrate the keyclick and sent a square wave signal to generate the 'bell' which sounds rather like a 'raspberry'. And while not a terminal, and while not triggeered by ^G, the HP9830 has an electronic beeper used to signal errors. It's simply triggered by a single line from the I/O interface PCB and things like the frequency and dureation are set by r's and C's on the PCB, they're not software controlled. But it shows the sort of design that when into these old HPs when you realase there's a little circuit -- OK, just a couple of gates, a trnasisotr, and a few passives -- to geenrate an amplitude envelope on this beep to make it sound more pleasant. One machine where every cent was _not_ saved... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 20 16:13:44 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:13:44 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <55F04B08-CB9B-406E-B20B-F8F70832E883@neurotica.com> On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> AOS is a relatively pure 4.3 port but that might be harder to come >> by. Good luck! > > Available if you poke around on the web. There's a also a > partially completed BSD 4.4 port around if you look really hard. > It almost works . I have the very machine that the 4.4BSD port was done on, and the development directories are still intact. It runs nicely. I really should take images of those filesystems before the disks finally die. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 20 16:21:44 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:21:44 -0700 Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4793C978.9050608@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > And while not a terminal, and while not triggeered by ^G, the HP9830 has > an electronic beeper used to signal errors. It's simply triggered by a > single line from the I/O interface PCB and things like the frequency and > dureation are set by r's and C's on the PCB, they're not software > controlled. But it shows the sort of design that when into these old HPs > when you realase there's a little circuit -- OK, just a couple of gates, > a trnasisotr, and a few passives -- to geenrate an amplitude envelope on > this beep to make it sound more pleasant. One machine where every cent > was _not_ saved... > > -tony I like a real bell. PS. stupid HTML email ... you can't enter a CTL G. :( From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun Jan 20 17:37:56 2008 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:37:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Teletype wiring question Message-ID: Wayne (Teletypeparts at aol.com) posted this on Greenkeys a few days back, but so far there have been no responses. I don't have my DEC manual collection handy and my 8/A has a different console connector. I'm sure that someone here knows the pinout, or where to find that schematic diagram or manual page (isn't it a W076 card)? Please let him (or the list) know... thanks Charles >I am looking for the simple wiring diagram to connect a 33 ASR to a PDP 8. I >have the 6 wire cable with the flat molex connector that goes to the PDP 8. >The other end is just wire ends. I know that wires 2 go to 33's receive and 2 >to 33's send, the other 2 to the tape reader control, but not which ones. My >color pairs are black/white black/red black/green if that is >any help. But if I knew the molex pin layout, I could trace them back to the >right connection on the 33. > >Thanks, >Wayne. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 20 19:28:26 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:28:26 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Teletype wiring question In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:37:56 -0500. Message-ID: There are plenty of PDP-8 manuals on bitsavers, but I have no idea which if any cover the teletype connection. Is it with a KL8? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 20:03:30 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:03:30 -0800 Subject: : Divide 10 bits by 10. In-Reply-To: <47933793.4082.12E552C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801201042.m0KAfm1i034370@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47933793.4082.12E552C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > >> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:01:25 -0800 >> From: dwight elvey > > >> I'm not sure how effective that would be in Z80 code. It looks >> like I'd at least need to do 32 bit coding to keep track of things. >> I'd still need to calculate the remainder when done( I need both ). >> The maximum sector index would be 800 decimal. > > Ah, then it's easy: > > ;* Divide 10 bits by 10. > ; --------------------- > ; > ; Input in (HL) > ; > ; Quotient in (A), remainder in (L). > ; > > > Div10by10: > ld de,(10 shl 6) ; divisor > ld bc,0701h ; iteration count + 1 for xor > xor a ; quotient > Dtbt2: > xor c ; assume set > sbc hl,de ; subtract > jr nc,Dbt4 ; if no carryout > add hl,de ; add back > xor c ; clear the bit > Dbt4: > rr d ; (carry is clear) > rr e ; shift divisor > add a,a ; shift quotient > djnz dbt2 ; loop > rra ; correct quotient > ret ; a = quotient, l = remainder > > That will do it for values of a divident up to 1023. The algorithm > can be extended somewhat by shifting the value of 10 left more places > and increasing the number of iterations. > > I haven't tested it out on real hardware, but it should work. I've > also got a divide 32-bits by 10 along the same line, if you're > interested. It's fairly deterministic in terms of cycles; i.e., > there's not a lot of difference in timing between a dividends of 0 > and 799. > > Cheers, > Chuck Hi Chuck This is almost the same as the one Pete and I came up with. I think ours is a little faster with shifting the dividen instead of the divisor. We shift with a add hl,hl rather than the two rr's. The inc and dec are slightly more efficient than the xor's because I don't need to load the constant 1. It is good to see that your solution is similar to ours, It makes me think it is close to optimal. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From vrs at msn.com Sun Jan 20 21:52:09 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:52:09 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Teletype wiring question References: Message-ID: From: "Charles": > Wayne (Teletypeparts at aol.com) posted this on Greenkeys a few days > back, but so far there have been no responses. I don't have my DEC > manual collection handy and my 8/A has a different console connector. > > I'm sure that someone here knows the pinout, or where to find that > schematic diagram or manual page (isn't it a W076 card)? Please let > him (or the list) know... > > thanks > Charles > >>I am looking for the simple wiring diagram to connect a 33 ASR to a >>PDP 8. I have the 6 wire cable with the flat molex connector that >>goes to the PDP 8. The other end is just wire ends. I know that >>wires 2 go to 33's receive and 2 to 33's send, the other 2 to the >>tape reader control, but not which ones. My color pairs are >> black/white black/red black/green >>if that is any help. But if I knew the molex pin layout, I could >>trace them back to the right connection on the 33. My LT33 print set shows BLU/WHT/BLK/ORN/RED/GRN on the W076 card, going to WHT/GRN/BLU/BLK/ORN/RED on pins 2-7 of the 8 pin molex connector #7006593. ORN(+) (orange) and BLU(-) are the reader run relay. WHT goes to 6 (TTO-), BLK goes to 7 (TTO+), RED goes to 4(TTI+), and GRN goes to 3(TTI-) on the TTY board. (Assuming you've got your TTY modded per DEC's instructions, of course.) The notes say yellow is sometimes used for WHT, and gray for GRN.) Your color scheme seems quite a bit different, but you should be able to translate based on the pins at the molex connector. Pin one is at the top looking into the connector's mating edge (that is, at the male pins) with the keying tab to your left. Hope that helps! Vince From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Sun Jan 20 22:09:29 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:39:29 +1030 Subject: DEC Flip-Chip transistor cross? Message-ID: <03898382-35E4-4D7C-AA97-8C96D81A7C9D@bigpond.net.au> I've Googled till I'm blue, but I haven't been able to find it. What would be a good cross for a DEC 3639 PNP transistor? Or, failing that, what are the specs for this transistor? -Bobby From vrs at msn.com Sun Jan 20 22:50:17 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:50:17 -0800 Subject: DEC Flip-Chip transistor cross? References: <03898382-35E4-4D7C-AA97-8C96D81A7C9D@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: From: "Robert Nansel": > I've Googled till I'm blue, but I haven't been able to find it. What > would be a good cross for a DEC 3639 PNP transistor? Or, failing > that, what are the specs for this transistor? The DEC3639 is basically a 2N3639, and you can find a data sheet at http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/224396.pdf. It's a PNP switching transistor. You can also have a look at http://www.datasheetarchive.com/crossreference/2N3639.html for cross-reference suggestions. NTE suggests the NTE106 as a possible replacement. I've gone through the module schematics on bitsavers and entered all the cross-reference data from them into a spreadsheet. I really should get the information up on my website someday. Vince From vrs at msn.com Sun Jan 20 22:54:52 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:54:52 -0800 Subject: K-series flip-chips / was Re: Supply voltage for 2N2/256-BSCP References: <2A099CF4-F247-43FF-B32A-AD1E0D080D86@bigpond.net.au><478DCF22.FAA8263A@cs.ubc.ca><200801161949.41947.rtellason@verizon.net><478FD72C.1456D82C@cs.ubc.ca> <20080117224255.GB20548@usap.gov> <479020BB.5C1840A2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: From: "Brent Hilpert": > Side-tracking here, but I have a few K-series modules and I see at > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/digital/timeline/1967-2.htm > they are described as having high noise immunity for use in industrial > control systems. Are these something like the discrete equivalent of > HTL ICs? Anyone know if there was a standard/common DEC processor > built from them, or perhaps > an industrial version of such a processor? They are slow (100Khz), so I don't think building a central processor out of them would have made sense. A dedicated control processor for a specific application, maybe. Vince From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 20 22:57:27 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:57:27 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- References: <200801191800.m0JI0Z8j025246@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4791CF8E.10797.D66FD0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47942638.8D53EC53@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Pete Turnbull sent some suggestions and here is what we have > now. It trades a little speed for size but the inner loop is faster > As I stated, faster is good but smaller is better. Any more help > would be great: > > Next try at code: > > div10: > xor a > ld de,#-640d ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d > ld b,#7 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 800/10 > divloop: > call div10s ; divide steps > djnz divloop > add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL > ret > > div10s: > add a,a ; 2*a > add hl,de ; trial subtract > jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed > sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear > dec a ; to nullify the following inc > div10s1: > inc a ; add to quotient > add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal > ret > > This is 23 bytes and looks good. (I expect you may have noticed already..) the subroutine (div10s) is only called once now, you could inline it to save another 4 bytes. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 20 22:59:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:59:27 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 backplanes Message-ID: Thanks everyone who contributed to the PDP-11 backplane discussion that was a side-thread on the PDP-11/70 board set discussion. I really had no idea that the backplane in a PDP-11 machine was essentially a board interconnect and not a "bus" in the typical sense. Now I understand what's geeky interesting about PDP-11s much more than I did before. Before that discussion, I was under the impression that they were all just typical shared address/data busses on those backplanes. My PDP-11/03 is Q-bus and its more like that than the PDP-11s that are not the VLSI versions. Thinking about it, it makes much more sense because the CPU is divided among a large number of boards and having them all sit on a common bus would be quite damaging to the performance of the CPU. So I'm guessing the way you figure out how these various CPUs are implemented using the boards is to look at the schematics and infer the connections on the backplane from those? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 20 23:32:40 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:32:40 -0600 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? Message-ID: <47942E78.8060103@oldskool.org> The spacebar died on the last working 83-key XT keyboard I had (I have three, and ALL have non-functioning spacebars), so I decided to finally choose one to take apart and try to clean with compressed air, etc. All of the keys came off okay; I put the plastic parts *only* in the dishwasher (mild soap, warm water, nothing harsh) and cleaned the rest by hand by shooting compressed air into every buckling spring hole. But when it came time to put the spacebar back on, I noticed that both ends of the spacebar have two little "hooks" that are supposed to hook onto two little prongs of metal underneath the top of the assembly. These provide necessary support, as the spacebar will bend if pressed at the edges instead of going straight down. Only problem is, I can't seem to get these re-hooked! The only way I can see getting the spacebar back on, barring some trick I don't know about, is to take the metal back off the assembly and try to re-hook it from underneath. But I'm terrified that, if I try to take the back off, 83 buckling spring assemblies are going to fly every which way from the unit and I'll be left with a worthless hunk of junk. It also doesn't look like it was meant to be taken off anyway, as one of the metal tabs on mine seems intentionally bend downward to prevent this. For those who need pictures, I've taken some snapshots of the problem and put them here: ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/keyb/ Any advice is appreciated -- either that, or a source for more 83-key XT keyboards... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 21 01:04:33 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:04:33 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 backplanes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47944401.1050405@shiresoft.com> Richard wrote: > So I'm guessing the way you figure out how these various CPUs are > implemented using the boards is to look at the schematics and infer > the connections on the backplane from those? > That would be one way. Usually there are module utilization charts (ie which boards plug into which slots) and block diagrams. Also in many cases there are "Theory of Operation" manuals that describe in detail how the CPU works with references to the schematics. -- TTFN - Guy From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 09:47:41 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:47:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, jim s wrote: > Jason T wrote: >> Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, books, >> etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any >> opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run >> ____," etc?) >> > A lot of the stuff that was available from IBM has been posted in archives > that can be found with some searching. Just be prepared to support a machine > with a 1.2MB high density floppy habit, and a 60 or 150mb quarter inch tape > habit. I have all my machines, software and drives "archived" and can't help > much but they are nice machines. > > Only thing to watch for is whether it has 40mb or 110mb drives (or even > 20mb). They used the seagates st whatevers, which might be a bit scarce > these days. > > I heard rumors that one could get ide controllers to work in them, but a fire > put a halt to my playing as I lost all but 2 of the boxes, and spares. Not a rumor! I have a 1GB Seagate IDE drive in mine. The older and clunkier the bus adapter, the better. Also, there's a SCSI driver floating around that supports the Adaptec 1540B and lets you use a SCSI tape drive of any convenient size. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 10:37:42 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Jeff Brendle wrote: > Yeah. I'd pick one up if you're interested. the ROMP chip was not much of a > speed demon, but it is granddaddy to the RS6k and all that followed after. If you can find the "Advanced Enhanced" CPU board, it runs at a whopping 12Mhz. and has 16MB of DRAM installed (no need for the extra memory cards). > And also remember that these things used funky ESDI drives, I think mostly > Maxstor, I think they topped out at 320MB. Several quirks too about that > ESDI, not everything could be made to work. Per my prior post, it's possible to get older IDE drives working. Never could figure out how to boot from them, though. Always used a floppy to get to the BSD startup and kicked off the system from hard disk at that point. > I remember Ungermann-Bass thick > ethernet cards and of course Token Ring were options. The megapixel console > monitor had real slow graphics but it could use a Hercules card. Ah. I didn't realize that! I have a monochrome RT board with one of the old RT "high def" mono displays. Also, one of the wierd 3-board color adapters (forget what it's called). > AOS is a relatively pure 4.3 port but that might be harder to come by. Good > luck! Available if you poke around on the web. There's a also a partially completed BSD 4.4 port around if you look really hard. It almost works . n.b. All of the available C compilers have "quirks" that make development work a real challenge! For real rarity, there was an "RT on a card" that plugged into a few of the later Microchannel boxen (Mod 80/85 I think) and let you dual boot DOS and AOS. Never was able to get ahold of this bugger. Steve -- From brendle at ems.psu.edu Sun Jan 20 12:23:37 2008 From: brendle at ems.psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:23:37 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47938E34.9090502@mdrconsult.com> References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47938E34.9090502@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <8E2AFB12-A514-4A8B-9380-60A21D7DE87A@ems.psu.edu> Good point about the keyboard and mouse connector ends, I forgot about that. I recall someone saying that specific very old Adaptec SCSI cards were possibilities too but I no longer remember the details. I'm going to guess that driver support for AIX would be more difficult than AOS. On Jan 20, 2008, at 1:08 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jason T wrote: >> Hi all - I've got a line on this old AIX box, with the monitor, >> books, >> etc (not sure about O/S media but I think that can be "found.") Any >> opinions on it? Any historical significance ("first machine run >> ____," etc?) >> It's cheap, but it will have to be shipped, which may not be cheap. > > Cheap will not be the word. My RT weighs nearly 75 pounds, and > that's *without* the full-height ESDI drives. > > If you can find an ISA IDE/FDC card without serial and parallel and > without PC "BIOS entensions", a Seagate IDE Medalist under 2GB will > work fine. I've got one running in mine. > > My RT has got the advanced processor board, and it's about as fast > as you'd expect from a 16MHz/16MB computer running a fairly > heavyweight OS, AIX v2.2.1. > > Make sure you get the keyboard, at least. It's a proprietary > interface, and I've never heard of anyone adapting a different > keyboard for it. Same for the mouse, and if you happen to get 2, I > get dibs on the spare! :) > > The story I got from an IBM developer is that the PC/RT was ready > for market in 1981, but for some reason IBM did not release it till > '86. By then it was mostly outclassed by the competition and its > own price, so IBM didn't sell many of them. > Jeff Brendle Office: 313 EESB/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 Desktop Support Spv. Home: 146 Haverford Circle Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)238-8811 Mailto:bli at psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle From pludikar at sympatico.ca Sun Jan 20 18:36:43 2008 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: <200801201802.m0KI22sj037831@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801201802.m0KI22sj037831@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Most heads have two sets of windings. One for trim erase and a second >for read/write. The organization varies but the trim is two pins or >have one pin in common with R/W and the RW is often a centertapped >winding (three wires) so you should see three connections of near >zero ohms and a pair that are also near zero OR 4 pins that show >near zero (common wire case). > >The test for alignment usually requires a calibration disk and scope >but I've done it by doing reads of a known good disk and "finding >the edges" and setting it for the middle. Track 00 is usually less >critical so if it happens when the head out and you can boot or read >the disk thats usually good enough. > >Allison Allison - thank you very much. I've measured the replacement heads and it looks like they may be damaged. There are 5 connections to each head - on the upper head, 3 connections measure zero, and on the bottom head, 4 connections measure zero. The bottom head is consistent with another head (damaged) I have. I know that the replacement heads were able to read data, but caused the tracks to erase when writing, so I still would expect to be able to use them. The major question I have, though, is how do you change the position of the head to calibrate it? On the MPF-52W-30 (sorry I inadvertently gave wrong number last time) there's a variable pot RV101 and 2 pins to IC101 (CXD1007B) associated with X-adj and X-reset. Other than setting the position of Track 00, these look like the only options available to move the heads a fraction of a step. I'd be grateful for any thoughts or suggestions. Peter From erzzf at tiscalinet.it Sun Jan 20 19:47:51 2008 From: erzzf at tiscalinet.it (erzzf) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:47:51 +0100 Subject: Teletype 43 manual Message-ID: <003a01c85bcf$a2cf1f60$9f00a8c0@1400xp> Hi, I am looking for the teletype model 43 user manual and cable pinouts. Would you be so kind to help me? Thanks, Ernest From ohh at panix.com Sun Jan 20 21:40:14 2008 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:40:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 Teletype wiring question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I am looking for the simple wiring diagram to connect a 33 ASR to a PDP 8. I >> have the 6 wire cable with the flat molex connector that goes to the PDP 8. >> The other end is just wire ends. I know that wires 2 go to 33's receive and 2 >> to 33's send, the other 2 to the tape reader control, but not which ones. My >> color pairs are black/white black/red black/green if that is >> any help. But if I knew the molex pin layout, I could trace them back to the >> right connection on the 33. The color pairs aren't what I'm used to, but hopefully you can trace them back to the PDP-8 and find out what they are from that end. Two documents which should help: -The LT33 print set shows a basic PDP8-to-ASR33 connection on the second page. Four of your six lines go to terminal lugs on the ASR-33; the other two, for reader control, go to a relay card designated "4915" which gets tied into the reader's power supply. Yes, there's instructions on where the 4915 goes, though they don't really describe the 4915 to any useful level. There's also a diagram of the "Mate-N-Lock" connector DEC used at the time, which may be all you need - though your color pairs are different from their description, so you may have to trace them out. The LT33 doc is at: http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/CHD/LT33_print_set.pdf The PDP-8/I Maintenance Manual has a drawing (figure 5-7, page 5-16) which shows the PDP8-ASR33 connection in schematic form; it actually describes the 4915 enough to be almost useful. :) http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8i/DEC-8I-HR1A-D_8Imaint_Mar70.pdf Hope these help! -O.- From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 21 02:17:39 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:17:39 +0000 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <47942E78.8060103@oldskool.org> References: <47942E78.8060103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1200903459.30952.1.camel@elric> On Sun, 2008-01-20 at 23:32 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > when it came time to put the spacebar back on, I noticed that both ends > of the spacebar have two little "hooks" that are supposed to hook onto > two little prongs of metal underneath the top of the assembly. These > provide necessary support, as the spacebar will bend if pressed at the > edges instead of going straight down. Only problem is, I can't seem to > get these re-hooked! What I do is hold the space bar with the top facing me, get the hooks hooked under the metal "anti-roll bar" (sorry about the car reference Jay, but that's what it is!) and then rock the space bar backwards until the square plunger clicks into place. YMMV. Gordon From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jan 21 04:18:00 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:18:00 -0800 Subject: NEC component description/datasheet Message-ID: I'm trying to identify a couple of devices. Google is leaving me cold. Part numbers: NEC B975 (also has "L 96" marking) and NEC D1309 ("K 98", like the former). Both are TO-220 package. Can anyone help? Thanks! ok bear From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 21 07:28:34 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:28:34 -0300 Subject: NEC component description/datasheet References: Message-ID: <005101c85c31$c9e54d60$0402a8c0@portajara> > I'm trying to identify a couple of devices. Google is leaving me cold. > Part numbers: NEC B975 (also has "L 96" marking) and NEC D1309 ("K 98", > like the former). Both are TO-220 package. This is the pretty standard marking for 2S*.* transistors. Just put 2S on front of the number. 2SB975 and 2SD1309. For datasheets, try www.datasheetarchive.com Good luck! AS From djg at pdp8.net Mon Jan 21 06:38:54 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:38:54 -0500 Subject: DEC Flip-Chip transistor cross? Message-ID: <200801211238.m0LCcsK24706@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > I've Googled till I'm blue, but I haven't been able to find it. What > would be a good cross for a DEC 3639 PNP transistor? Or, failing > that, what are the specs for this transistor? > 2N3639. My cross here. It doesn't seem to be picked up by the search engines for some reason. http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8docs/decsub.txt From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jan 21 07:01:01 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:01:01 -0500 Subject: GenRad Development systems In-Reply-To: <005101c85c31$c9e54d60$0402a8c0@portajara> References: <005101c85c31$c9e54d60$0402a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4794978D.3000202@atarimuseum.com> Anyone out there familiar with the General Radio 65xx Development systems??? Curt From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 21 07:42:32 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:42:32 -0500 Subject: Backing up TK50s (was: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed.) In-Reply-To: <000001c85baa$4f6f20b0$ee4d6210$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <479374BC.2050404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <31E884736C01@dunfield.com> > I'm not sure about the legal situation, but I think it would be worth > making a copy on some other media before the TK50s become unreadable. > > Regards > > Rob A timely discussion... Last week I received a total 4 TK50 drives, and a box containing 15 TK50 cartridge tapes. Of the four drives, one is a 1/2 height SCSI drive that is contained in a "low flat" DEC box (like the Microvax 3100). The other three are full-height TK50s, one of which is installed in a "cubish" (like the MicroVAX-2000) DEC box with a SCSI controller. The box is labled "TK50Z". I do know that this last drive was used quite recently. Of the 15 tapes, 8 of them appear to be original distribution media, and are "factory labled": AQ-FP13C-BN 03-Mar-87 MICROVMS V4.4 FULL BIN TK50 (C) 1986 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. AQ-FY80B-BN 03-Mar-87 MICROVMS V4.4 BIN TK50 MANDATORY UPD (C) 1986 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. AQ-JG62A-BN 03-Mar-87 MICROVMS V4.5 BIN TK50 (C) 1986 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. AQ-FP59C-BN 31-Mar-87 VMS LIC KEY BIN TK50 (C) 1986 DIGITAL EQUIP CORP. AQ-FP86J-BN W0035602 VAX FORTRAN 5.2 BIN TK50 FORT052,DEBUGMP050 (C) 1989 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. AQ-FP86E-BN 18-Feb-87 VAX FORTRAN 4.6 BIN TK50 FORT046 FORT (C) 1987 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. WIN/TCP Release 3.1 For MicroVAX VMS Computers License # 9074-IP _______ SID # ____________________ VD9962003 REV E uVAX TS11 DRIVER (C)1986 EMULEX The remaining tapes are mostly unlabled, although there are a few with handwritten labels: PSCA_E07042 Pathworks V4.2 Patch VAX/VMS 5.4-1 S/A BACKUP VMS V4.6 Q's: 1) Are any these titles already backed up somewhere? Are they worth backing up? (I assume everything requires licenses - I don't have the machine the VMS LIC tape was issued for). 2) What is the best way to backup these tapes to a more permanent media? Can they be read into binary files, and if so, can anything be done with those files? Presumably, as long as the tape blocks were archived, one could write a SCSI tape emulator if one really had to - or does such a thing already exist?) I have available: - Vaxstation 4000 VLC running VMS 5.5 - Vaxserver 3100 running OpenVMS 7.2 - Vaxstation 3100 running NetBSD All have SCSI ports. I relatively green at VMS from a system administration viewpoint (used it as a user lots in years gone by). I've never mounted or used tapes, but with a bit of guidance I'm willing to try and recover these if anyone has interest in their content. 3) What is "MICROVMS" - Is this just VMS (for a uVAX)? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 21 08:29:23 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:29:23 -0000 Subject: Backing up TK50s (was: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed.) In-Reply-To: <31E884736C01@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <006101c85c3a$13ecbe40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > 1) Are any these titles already backed up somewhere? > Are they worth backing up? (I assume everything requires > licenses - I don't have the machine the VMS LIC tape > was issued for). I guess these are backed up somewhere - but I don't know of any publically available repositories. I expect HP might become slightly annoyed if this stuff popped up somewhere. (Although it seems you are allowed to acquire stuff covered by the Hobbyist program by copying media that others are willing to lend you, or presumably via FTP). Before OpenVMS V5.0, there was no LMF (Licence Management Facility). So your VMS LIC tape is probably not keyed to anything. It just patches VAX/VMS to allow more users. (I know DECnet worked the same way back then, probably clustering too). Without VMS LIC you get some default number of users (perhaps 8, i.e. 8 simultaneous logins). I'd certainly say that this stuff is old enough that it's worth archiving. > 2) What is the best way to backup these tapes to a more > permanent media? Can they be read into binary files, > and if so, can anything be done with those files? The tapes are pretty simple IIRC. Some of them may well be bootable, but I would say that the most important thing is to save the savesets. For a direct image of the tape you could try VMSTPC. But you can archive the bulk of the important info just by mounting the tape in question and copying off the savesets: $ MOUNT/OVER=ID MKA0: label $ COPY/LOG MKA0:*.* device:[dir] I don't have a tape handy on my VAX right now so I cannot pop one in and figure out the actual gnarly bits (and I'm likely to have forgotten in the 5 years since I last did this!) The one thing I do remember is that if you are logged in as SYSTEM, then your default is SYS$MANAGER, which at least with later versions of VMS, is a search list. In which case there's a quirk that means that $ DIR MKA0: will list your tape contents twice. What I cannot remember is whether it just displays eevrything twice or does the tape operations twice: if the latter, then COPY will probably copy everything off twice! The fix is to SET DEFAULT somewhere that doesn't involve a search list first! Copying savesets off a tape like this is a slight cheat: backup goes to a lot of effort to write recoverable tapes and by using copy you are ignoring that. But as long as there are no bad blocks copying savesets off works just fine. If you do hit a bad block, COPY will fall over in a heap and you'll have to copy remaining savesets off manually. Then you'll have to use BACKUP to properly recover the savesets with bad blocks (but it's best to worry about that when you need to do it). There was a product called something like Saveset Manager, which did this (and much else besides) for you, but I never used it. > I have available: > - Vaxstation 4000 VLC running VMS 5.5 > - Vaxserver 3100 running OpenVMS 7.2 > - Vaxstation 3100 running NetBSD Whichever will take the biggest data disk you have would be my preference. I've had no trouble with 18GB IBM SCA drives, so the easiest might be to drop a handy SCSI drive into an external enclosure? You might as well mimic the way CDs were organised: each product ended up in its own directory, so your FORTRAN distro would end up as [FORT046]. Then FTP the stuff over to a PC and burn (twice) to your choice of optical media (cue the annual archiving discussion ...). Or you could use LDDRIVER, give it a 700MB file (possibly contiguous?) and mount that as a writeable disk. Copy the savesets over in whatever directory structure you think appropriate. Unmount the LD device and FTP the file over to a PC. Burn (as a physical image) to CD and you you can mount that as an ODS-2 disk on OpenVMS (assuming, of course, you have a suitable CD drive). > 3) What is "MICROVMS" - Is this just VMS (for a uVAX)? Initially it was a cut down version of VAX/VMS that would install from RX50 floppy onto a MicroVAX II. That's about 50 floppies. It was cut down in the sense that various programmer-only options were not available by default. It was fairly short-lived (from VMS V4 to V4.4) and then in V4.4 "ordinary" VMS was able to be tailored so that it would fit on such a MicroVAX. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1234 - Release Date: 20/01/2008 14:15 From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jan 21 08:41:28 2008 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:41:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc Message-ID: <17591079.1200926488343.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> I never knew that an ASR-33 had a bell like an old typewriter to >> indicate that your near the end of the line. Funny! The computers >> probably had a special microphone to hear it when printing a directory >> listing :-) > >I though the 'end of line' trigger for the bell was actually an option, >but that all Model 33s (RO, KSR, ASR) had the bell which was mechanically >triggered by a ^G character. >Oh yes, the VT50 series of DEC terminals have a little relay on the logic >board. It'spulsed to geenrate the keyclick and sent a square wave signal >to generate the 'bell' which sounds rather like a 'raspberry'. >-tony Maybe I need to make a video of the VT52 with the ^G bell sound. It is a strange sound. We used to write programs on the PDP-11 back in the 70s to "ring the bell" under certain conditions (winning a game, etc.). Note on my videos that the VT05 (DEC's early video terminal) also buzzes at the end of the line on long lines. Ashley From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 09:09:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:09:10 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- In-Reply-To: <47942638.8D53EC53@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200801191800.m0JI0Z8j025246@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4791CF8E.10797.D66FD0D@cclist.sydex.com> <47942638.8D53EC53@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:57:27 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at priv-edmwaa04.telusplanet.net > CC: > Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- > > dwight elvey wrote: >> Hi >> Pete Turnbull sent some suggestions and here is what we have >> now. It trades a little speed for size but the inner loop is faster >> As I stated, faster is good but smaller is better. Any more help >> would be great: >> >> Next try at code: >> >> div10: >> xor a >> ld de,#-640d ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d >> ld b,#7 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 800/10 >> divloop: >> call div10s ; divide steps >> djnz divloop >> add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL >> ret >> >> div10s: >> add a,a ; 2*a >> add hl,de ; trial subtract >> jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed >> sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear >> dec a ; to nullify the following inc >> div10s1: >> inc a ; add to quotient >> add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal >> ret >> >> This is 23 bytes and looks good. > > (I expect you may have noticed already..) the subroutine (div10s) is > only called once now, you could inline it to save another 4 bytes. Hi Yes, I saw that after posting. Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 21 09:11:52 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:11:52 -0500 Subject: DEC Flip-Chip transistor cross? In-Reply-To: <03898382-35E4-4D7C-AA97-8C96D81A7C9D@bigpond.net.au> References: <03898382-35E4-4D7C-AA97-8C96D81A7C9D@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <56f10e414e6c470452de6957916ae100@neurotica.com> On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Robert Nansel wrote: > I've Googled till I'm blue, but I haven't been able to find it. What > would be a good cross for a DEC 3639 PNP transistor? Or, failing > that, what are the specs for this transistor? I'm pretty sure that's just a 2N3639. There are inexpensive batches of them on eBay all the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jan 21 07:43:24 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:43:24 -0600 Subject: Teletype 43 manual In-Reply-To: <003a01c85bcf$a2cf1f60$9f00a8c0@1400xp> References: <003a01c85bcf$a2cf1f60$9f00a8c0@1400xp> Message-ID: <4794A17C.5040107@ubanproductions.com> Is this what you are looking for? http://www.ubanproductions.com/ksr43.tif --tom erzzf wrote: > Hi, > I am looking for the teletype model 43 user manual and cable pinouts. Would you be so kind to help me? > Thanks, Ernest > > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Jan 21 11:53:19 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:53:19 +0000 Subject: NEC component description/datasheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4794DC0F.5000908@gifford.co.uk> r.stricklin wrote: > Part numbers: NEC B975 (also has "L 96" marking) and NEC D1309 ("K 98", > like the former). Both are TO-220 package. Since these are Japanese parts, try adding a "2S" prefix to the names, i.e. 2SB975 and 2SD1309. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 21 12:17:17 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:17:17 -0600 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <1200903459.30952.1.camel@elric> References: <47942E78.8060103@oldskool.org> <1200903459.30952.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4794E1AD.7050205@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sun, 2008-01-20 at 23:32 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> when it came time to put the spacebar back on, I noticed that both ends >> of the spacebar have two little "hooks" that are supposed to hook onto >> two little prongs of metal underneath the top of the assembly. These >> provide necessary support, as the spacebar will bend if pressed at the >> edges instead of going straight down. Only problem is, I can't seem to >> get these re-hooked! > > What I do is hold the space bar with the top facing me, get the hooks > hooked under the metal "anti-roll bar" (sorry about the car reference > Jay, but that's what it is!) and then rock the space bar backwards until > the square plunger clicks into place. Are you thinking of a Model M keyboard? They have a different spacebar support mechanism than the 83-key XT keyboard I'm trying to repair. If you aren't, then could you take a look at the pictures at ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/keyb/ and see if yours looks like mine? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 21 12:29:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:45 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:57:27 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- > (I expect you may have noticed already..) the subroutine (div10s) is > only called once now, you could inline it to save another 4 bytes. You can do a bit better with that and by using the carryout to form the quotient bits: div10: xor a ld de,0fd80h ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d ld b,07 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 80 divloop: add hl,de ; trial subtract jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear div10s1: rl a add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal djnz divloop add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL ret Again, I haven't tried it out, but it should work. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 21 12:41:31 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:41:31 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > div10: > xor a > ld de,0fd80h ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d > ld b,07 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 80 > divloop: > add hl,de ; trial subtract > jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed > sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear > div10s1: > rl a > add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal > djnz divloop > add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL > ret > > Again, I haven't tried it out, but it should work. Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 21 12:51:30 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:51:30 -0800 Subject: Backing up TK50s (was: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed.) Message-ID: <4794E9B2.1040500@bitsavers.org> Q's: 1) Are any these titles already backed up somewhere? -- many of them have been. The license PAKs are less common 2) What is the best way to backup these tapes to a more permanent media? -- I use Eric Smith's tape copy program http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ which generates .tap images on a Linux box using a TZ30. TZ30's are handy because the head is easily disassembled to clean; something you do a LOT reading TK50's from the mid-80's 3) What is "MICROVMS" - Is this just VMS (for a uVAX)? -- correct. somewhat stripped down version of same. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 13:58:24 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:58:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11 rescue. Message-ID: <301405.33185.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thanks for the replies. I've sent emails off list. Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jan 21 13:59:25 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:59:25 -0000 Subject: Backing up TK50s (was: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed.) In-Reply-To: <4794E9B2.1040500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <006b01c85c68$211249e0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Al Kossow wrote: > Q's: > > 1) Are any these titles already backed up somewhere? > > -- > > many of them have been. The license PAKs are less common Although I don't expect anyone to make them available, it would be nice if there were a list somewhere of what does exist, media type, part number, whether it has been backed up (and how). At least I'd know whether I have something important in the attic (TK50 or CD or even a few magtapes). I'd volunteer if I thought a static webpage would do. Licence PAKs are a bit less of a concern: there have been a few PAKGEN type tools (and T-Shirts!) out there, there's always the chance that HP will release PAKGEN when they give up on OpenVMS and there are probably lots of DEC *INTERNAL USE ONLY* PAKs sitting on disks. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1234 - Release Date: 20/01/2008 14:15 From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 21 13:57:29 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:57:29 -0500 Subject: NEC component description/datasheet In-Reply-To: <005101c85c31$c9e54d60$0402a8c0@portajara> References: <005101c85c31$c9e54d60$0402a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <200801211457.30093.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 21 January 2008 08:28, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > I'm trying to identify a couple of devices. Google is leaving me cold. > > Part numbers: NEC B975 (also has "L 96" marking) and NEC D1309 ("K 98", > > like the former). Both are TO-220 package. > > This is the pretty standard marking for 2S*.* transistors. Just put 2S > on front of the number. 2SB975 and 2SD1309. > > For datasheets, try www.datasheetarchive.com Or http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html :-) I just looked, and while I don't have the first one, I have the second, which is listed as an NPN "darlington w/ damper", 100V, 8A, 40W. If both parts came out of the same equipment the other one's probably a pretty similar PNP part. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tsw-cc at johana.com Mon Jan 21 15:29:41 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:29:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bells on terminals (was: Re: YouTube videos of ASR33, etc.) Message-ID: <520277.78457.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The discussion of bells on terminals reminded me of a weird experience. I had built up a terminal using a Qume printing mechanism (Sprint 4 interface) and added a keyboard and UART to make it complete. The printer didn't have a "bell" so I had to make one. In looking around for a nice tone to use, I found the one from the baud rate generator (MC14411). Since I was using an ASCII sequence, I had little use for the 134.5 rate (it is used for IBM 2741's) so I picked it up and with the use of a (couple?) one-shot, I made it into the beep. It was 16x the rate, so the tone was 2153.3Hz (see the data sheet). It worked quite nicely, and was pleasant sounding enough. Both control-G's and I were happy. Then the terminal was hooked up to an acoustic modem. While this isn't bad in itself, the astute among us will note that the tone for the bell is very near the center of the passband (2025-2225Hz) of the originate modems detector. So, every time someone sent a control-G to the terminal ALL sorts of weird things happened. Needless to say, I changed the wire to a different tap on the MC14411 baud rate generator chip. Yes, hardware can have unexpected bugs. Somewhere I still have this terminal. Daisywheel printers were fun to play with. I have the schematics somewhere if anyone needs info. -- Sorry, No signature at the moment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From steve at radiorobots.com Mon Jan 21 15:35:29 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:35:29 -0500 Subject: Bells on terminals (was: Re: YouTube videos of ASR33, etc.) In-Reply-To: <520277.78457.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <520277.78457.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47951021.6000000@radiorobots.com> Cool story. Being able to feel the physics without instruments is always fun. Steve Tom Watson wrote: >The discussion of bells on terminals reminded me of a weird experience. I had >built up a terminal using a Qume printing mechanism (Sprint 4 interface) and >added a keyboard and UART to make it complete. The printer didn't have a >"bell" so I had to make one. In looking around for a nice tone to use, I found >the one from the baud rate generator (MC14411). Since I was using an ASCII >sequence, I had little use for the 134.5 rate (it is used for IBM 2741's) so I >picked it up and with the use of a (couple?) one-shot, I made it into the beep. > It was 16x the rate, so the tone was 2153.3Hz (see the data sheet). It worked >quite nicely, and was pleasant sounding enough. Both control-G's and I were >happy. > >Then the terminal was hooked up to an acoustic modem. While this isn't bad in >itself, the astute among us will note that the tone for the bell is very near >the center of the passband (2025-2225Hz) of the originate modems detector. So, >every time someone sent a control-G to the terminal ALL sorts of weird things >happened. Needless to say, I changed the wire to a different tap on the >MC14411 baud rate generator chip. Yes, hardware can have unexpected bugs. > >Somewhere I still have this terminal. Daisywheel printers were fun to play >with. I have the schematics somewhere if anyone needs info. > > > > From ericj at speakeasy.org Mon Jan 21 16:02:16 2008 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:02:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Backing up TK50s (was: VMS 6.2 or older install media needed.) In-Reply-To: <31E884736C01@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Dave Dunfield wrote: > ... > 2) What is the best way to backup these tapes to a more > permanent media? Can they be read into binary files, > and if so, can anything be done with those files? > Presumably, as long as the tape blocks were archived, > one could write a SCSI tape emulator if one really > had to - or does such a thing already exist?) > > I have available: > - Vaxstation 4000 VLC running VMS 5.5 > - Vaxserver 3100 running OpenVMS 7.2 > - Vaxstation 3100 running NetBSD > > All have SCSI ports. > > I relatively green at VMS from a system administration > viewpoint (used it as a user lots in years gone by). > I've never mounted or used tapes, but with a bit of > guidance I'm willing to try and recover these if anyone > has interest in their content. > ... Here's what I do: 1. Use VMSTPCE to image the tape on a VMS box. 2. Transfer the image into a VMS system running under simh. 3. Use VMSTPCE to write the image to a simh tap file via an emulated TK50. There may be some more straightforward way to convert a vmstpce file to a simh tap file. If so, I'm interested in hearing about it. You can find VMSTPCE here: ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/vmstpce.zip I'd also clean the TK50 and TZ30 drives and test them with scratch media. Clean as needed (each use?) and be grateful for every tape the drive returns to you unscathed. Regards, -- Eric Josephson From vrs at msn.com Mon Jan 21 16:39:52 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:39:52 -0800 Subject: Teletype 43 manual References: <003a01c85bcf$a2cf1f60$9f00a8c0@1400xp> Message-ID: From: "erzzf": > I am looking for the teletype model 43 user manual and cable pinouts. > Would you be so kind to help me? > Thanks, Ernest It's not a manual, but is http://www.pdp8.org/asr_43_adapter_cable.htm the sort of information you are looking for? Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 21 17:05:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:05:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 20, 8 07:45:10 pm Message-ID: > > > > > Hi, > > I've been trying to create a working Sony MPF50W (as found in the HP1650B > > Is this one of the half-height units using many of the same parts as an > Apple 800K drive? In other words similar to the drive used in the HP9114B? Having now dug out my scheamtics for the 9114B, I see the drive in that is an MP-F52W. I am going to assume it is fairly similar. > > sensor. I'm reasonably sure that the heads are okay, they show continuity > > on some of the pins, but I'm not 100% certain that is what I should be > > If this is one of the drives covered in 'my' diagrams, I'll have shown > the head connections there. A head winding will test as a very low > resistance (dead short) on a meter. Just about the only thing that's not > connected to anything lese is the screen (shield) OK, I didn't show the heads themselves in the diagrams, probably because I couldn't be _sure_ of the connections without disassembling the head carrage and possibly ruining the drive. I do show the connectors for the heads in the bottom left corner of Sheet 4 of the diagrams, conenctos CN5 and CN6. I think it's very likey this drive uses a conventionally-wired head. That is a sentre-tapped read/write head and a separate tunnel erase head, with one end of the latter being connected to the centre tap of the read/write coil. I _think_ the connections are therefore as follows, taking CN5 as an example (CN6 is a mirror image). 1) Shield 2) One end of the R/W coil 3) Other end of the R/W coil 4) Centre tap of R/W 5) Erase Pins 2-5 should all test essentieally shorted to each other using any normal ohmmeter,. pin 1 should be isolated from all the others. > The full-height Sony drives have the head switching diodes on the > flexiprint to the heads, which might confuse your tests. The half-height > ones have sepearate head tails from each head ans the swtiching diodes on > the main PCB. In fact the swtiching diodes in ising IC102, the read/write ASIC > > > expecting. I can't find any obvious sources of information on where to > > probe to see useful signals from the heads or find any procedure to align > > If this is the drive I think it is, the analogue circuity is in one big > ASIC. There's an LC filter circuit hung off that. looking at 2 > 'equivalent' pins of that with a differential-input 'scope will show the > head signal. The appropraite test points are labelled 'RF' on the schematics and PCB. THey're connected to pins 3 and 4 of the R/W ASIC (counting anticlockwise from the marked corner as usual), the're the ends of R149. > > The normal way to alignt the track 0 sensor involves the euse of a drive > exerchiser. What you do is move the sensor right out (to prevent it > stopping theh eads from stepping out when they get to what thr drive > things is track 0,), then, with 'standard' formatted disk in the drive, > step out until the signal is lost (that's one cylinder past track 0), > step in once, and move the sensor in until it just triggers. Then make > sure that the track0 signal is asserted on track 0 and not on track 1. You can test the Track0 sensor output on the '00' test point. That's the 'top' (non-earthed) end of R128, or the middle pin of CN104 (bottom right corner of sheet 2 of the drive schematics). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 21 17:11:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: from "Peter" at Jan 20, 8 07:36:43 pm Message-ID: > Allison - thank you very much. I've measured the replacement heads and it > looks like they may be damaged. There are 5 connections to each head - on > the upper head, 3 connections measure zero, and on the bottom head, 4 > connections measure zero. The bottom head is consistent with another head 4 shorted together ('measuer 0') and one unconencted one would be what I expect. The uncconected one will be at one end of the head edge connector fingers. On the damaged head, which _other_ one is unconnected ? > (damaged) I have. I know that the replacement heads were able to read data, > but caused the tracks to erase when writing, so I still would expect to be > able to use them. > > The major question I have, though, is how do you change the position of the > head to calibrate it? On the MPF-52W-30 (sorry I inadvertently gave wrong In which case it's very likely to be related to the MP-F52W-50 > number last time) there's a variable pot RV101 and 2 pins to IC101 > (CXD1007B) associated with X-adj and X-reset. Other than setting the Are these related to head alignment? I must say I am rather suprised. Normally you physically move the head stepper motor slightly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 21 17:12:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:12:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Flip-Chip transistor cross? In-Reply-To: <03898382-35E4-4D7C-AA97-8C96D81A7C9D@bigpond.net.au> from "Robert Nansel" at Jan 21, 8 02:39:29 pm Message-ID: > > I've Googled till I'm blue, but I haven't been able to find it. What > would be a good cross for a DEC 3639 PNP transistor? Or, failing Most fo the time, for transistors, you replace 'DEC' with '2N'. Would a 2N3639 make any sense in the circuit (is it the same polarity, same package, etc?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 21 17:22:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:22:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <47942E78.8060103@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 20, 8 11:32:40 pm Message-ID: > > The spacebar died on the last working 83-key XT keyboard I had (I have > three, and ALL have non-functioning spacebars), so I decided to finally > choose one to take apart and try to clean with compressed air, etc. All > of the keys came off okay; I put the plastic parts *only* in the > dishwasher (mild soap, warm water, nothing harsh) and cleaned the rest > by hand by shooting compressed air into every buckling spring hole. But > when it came time to put the spacebar back on, I noticed that both ends > of the spacebar have two little "hooks" that are supposed to hook onto > two little prongs of metal underneath the top of the assembly. These > provide necessary support, as the spacebar will bend if pressed at the > edges instead of going straight down. Only problem is, I can't seem to > get these re-hooked! I don;'t want to worry you, but IIRC, all the keycaps were available as FRUs from IBM _apart fro mthe space bar_. It was not regarded as practical to remove and replace that. It is a fiddle. > > The only way I can see getting the spacebar back on, barring some trick > I don't know about, is to take the metal back off the assembly and try > to re-hook it from underneath. But I'm terrified that, if I try to take > the back off, 83 buckling spring assemblies are going to fly every which > way from the unit and I'll be left with a worthless hunk of junk. It > also doesn't look like it was meant to be taken off anyway, as one of > the metal tabs on mine seems intentionally bend downward to prevent this. The only way I've found to reassmble them is to take the whole thing apart. it gives you a chance to properly clean it anyway. 1) Remove outer casing and keyboard cable. 2) Remove all keycaps apart from the spacebar (if it's still in place) 3) You mention a bent-over tap. This is, IIRC, on top of the keyboard, and it's prrety clear it's been bent after assembly. Bend it back to clear the slott in the other part of the kayboard. 4) Slide the bottom section relative to the top to free it. With the keyboard upside-dwon, lift off the lower part complete with the PCB. 5) Remove all 83 spring/flap units. They're all identical AFAIk 6) Remove the space bar if it's still in place 7) If you want to, you can remove the PCB by undoing the earthing screw, then sliding it to free the keyhole slots from the studs on the base plate. There's a thin plastic insulator under the PCB, don't lose it! 8) OK, now time to putit back togther. Fit the PCB to the base and screw down the earthing screw. Put the space bar back on and hook the wire linkage the prevents it from tipping in place. Then pull the space bar up as far as you can without disconnecting this linkage. 9) Fit the flaps, taking care to ket the space bar one correctly positioned. Fit the base/PCB and slide it over to lock it. Don't bend the tab yet. Prese the space bar down so it clicks in place, and check it clicks and returns properly. If not, you need to take the baseplate off again and have another go. 10 Fit the other keycaps, getting the springs located properly. Again check eack one clicks and returns if not, Pull that keycap and try again. 11) Fit the cable and plug it into a PCB. Try the keyboard. If it doesn't work, you might have to go through the whole process again, but most of the time they do work 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. -tony From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 18:37:00 2008 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:37:00 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PC 5150 Keyboard Message-ID: Hello all, I have an IBM 5150 PC in need of a new keyboard .... Willing to pay some $$, but hopefully not too much! :-) If anyone has one, can you please let me know how much you want for it? Also, please quote shipping to 01473. Thanks! Rich B. From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 18:55:20 2008 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:55:20 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting Message-ID: Hello all, I have an IBM PC, 5150, 16-64KB motherboard, that appears to be dead. Power on produces no display or disk activity (even after a while), and no beeps from the speaker (I tried a couple of speakers, so I don't think it is a speaker issue. >From what docs I found on the internet, the switches are set up properly for the machine's configuration... I am pretty sure the motherboard is getting power. I checked at a RAM socket, and all voltages were there, and well within specifications. The problem is, I'm not sure where to go from here. I have NO schematics, and haven't ever troubleshot a 5150 before. I DO have a good meter, and a scope (and I know how to use it!) What would be the first things to check? Thanks for any help!!! Rich B. From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jan 21 19:10:53 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:10:53 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Status of the RESET line and power_good signal? I don't know if the original power supplies had a "power good" signal but I know that on newer machines, if the power is out of tolerance, it won't POST. On 1/21/08 7:55 PM, "Richard Beaudry" wrote: > Hello all, > > I have an IBM PC, 5150, 16-64KB motherboard, that appears to be dead. Power > on produces no display or disk activity (even after a while), and no beeps > from the speaker (I tried a couple of speakers, so I don't think it is a > speaker issue. > >> From what docs I found on the internet, the switches are set up properly for > the machine's configuration... > > I am pretty sure the motherboard is getting power. I checked at a RAM > socket, and all voltages were there, and well within specifications. > > The problem is, I'm not sure where to go from here. I have NO schematics, > and haven't ever troubleshot a 5150 before. > > I DO have a good meter, and a scope (and I know how to use it!) > > What would be the first things to check? > > Thanks for any help!!! > Rich B. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 20:30:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:30:10 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > >> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:57:27 -0800 >> From: Brent Hilpert >> Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic --- > >> (I expect you may have noticed already..) the subroutine (div10s) is >> only called once now, you could inline it to save another 4 bytes. > > You can do a bit better with that and by using the carryout to form > the quotient bits: > > div10: > xor a > ld de,0fd80h ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d > ld b,07 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 80 > divloop: > add hl,de ; trial subtract > jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed > sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear Hi chuck I think the restore operation will cause a carry meaning I need to clear it here with something like: ora a ; or other carry clearing instruction If someone has a debugger running, they might check this but it does look as though the SBC will cause a carry that needs to be cleared. The result of the add hl,de that didn't create a carry left a negative number that will be modified back to a positive number with a subtract. I'm relatively sure that creates a carry. Still, it removes one instruction from the outer loop which is 4 cycles time 7. That is 28 clocks! This is great. Fine tuning this has been fun. div10: xor a ld de,0fd80h ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d ld b,07 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 80 divloop: add hl,de ; trial subtract jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is set?? ora a ; clears carry div10s1: rl a add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal djnz divloop add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL ret Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 21:08:29 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:08:29 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:41:31 -0600 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > CC: > Subject: Re: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> div10: >> xor a >> ld de,0fd80h ; largest power of 2 times 10 less then 800d >> ld b,07 ; only seven loops needed to finish divide 80 >> divloop: >> add hl,de ; trial subtract >> jr c,div10s1 ; carry means trial passed >> sbc hl,de ; undo previous add, carry is clear >> div10s1: >> rl a >> add hl,hl ; shift number to reuse same constant, 640 decimal >> djnz divloop >> add hl,hl ; push full remainder in HL >> ret >> >> Again, I haven't tried it out, but it should work. > > Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I > wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native > DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were > greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original > 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? Most likely not for the 800/10 problem but things like 28/3 might be small enough to be worth the clock cycles. Most any power of two problem can be done faster in code than the divide instruction. The one we have now, on a Z80, looks like 428 to 463 clock cycles to deal with the zero to 799 divided by 10. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 21 23:36:12 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: random unloved things Message-ID: I have some stuff that's free for shipping: Three 10base-FL AUI-to-fiber transceivers One ISA SCSI card with DB25 connector. It's a PEL 1600 and carries an Adaptec AIX-63600 chip. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 21 23:58:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:58:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: altair turnkey with internal drives Message-ID: Has anyone here heard of an Altair 8800 turnkey with internal floppy drives? I found one in the estate in Pasadena I'm liquidating. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 22 00:35:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 1:35:00 -0500 Subject: altair turnkey with internal drives Message-ID: <200801220636.m0M6ZxTw099839@keith.ezwind.net> Maybe some form of the Attache? I forget who made it ... might've been a company with a 'P' in the name that bought MITS? (I'm not at a computer to look it up right now.) -----Original Message----- From: David Griffith Subj: altair turnkey with internal drives Date: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:59 am Size: 345 bytes To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Has anyone here heard of an Altair 8800 turnkey with internal floppy drives? I found one in the estate in Pasadena I'm liquidating. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 22 00:50:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 1:50:00 -0500 Subject: altair turnkey with internal drives Message-ID: <200801220650.m0M6oiZS001243@keith.ezwind.net> Just remembered -- Pertec. -----Original Message----- From: "Evan" Subj: Re: altair turnkey with internal drives Date: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:37 am Size: 716 bytes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Maybe some form of the Attache? I forget who made it ... might've been a company with a 'P' in the name that bought MITS? (I'm not at a computer to look it up right now.) -----Original Message----- From: David Griffith Subj: altair turnkey with internal drives Date: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:59 am Size: 345 bytes To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Has anyone here heard of an Altair 8800 turnkey with internal floppy drives? I found one in the estate in Pasadena I'm liquidating. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 14:21:00 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47938E34.9090502@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <977086.57661.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > If you can find an ISA IDE/FDC card without > serial and parallel and > without PC "BIOS entensions", a Seagate IDE Medalist > under 2GB will work > fine. I've got one running in mine. couldn't you just disable all the unnecessary stuff, including the bios extensions? > Make sure you get the keyboard, at least. It's a > proprietary > interface, and I've never heard of anyone adapting a > different keyboard > for it. Same for the mouse, and if you happen to > get 2, I get dibs on > the spare! :) of course everyone would opt for an authentic original rodent, but how hard could it be to rig virtually any mouse to work on, IWT, any computer? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 14:34:10 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: youtube movie of making a vacuum triode. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <561575.61996.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> much appreciated. I hadn't thought of Googling! And *downloader* didn't figure in my lexicon for some reason... --- David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Chris M wrote: > > > I feel I should know the answer to this. I really > feel > > I should have the answer. Especially since I have > a > > program I downloaded off of sourceforge some > months > > ago that allows me to accomplish a *similar* task. > I > > want to be able to save videos like this one (and > a > > good many others I see on youtube). Can anyone > > recommend a program, preferably a free one. > Moochis gracias. > > If you specifically want the vacuum tube video, go > here: > http://paillard.claude.free.fr/ > > Google for "firefox "video downloader"" to find that > program. You can > also try http://www.keepvid.com/ > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 15:08:51 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:08:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: the PAL Message-ID: <798598.83660.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> 16L8ACN. This is the PAL aboard the Acculogic sIDE-1/16 XT-IDE controller I mentioned. Someone asked :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From brendle at ems.psu.edu Mon Jan 21 07:33:27 2008 From: brendle at ems.psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:33:27 -0500 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <080B584A-3698-42AD-831F-ECB21764788F@ems.psu.edu> yeah. I remember compiling being a lot more "fun" on those... And the RT 6152 w/ the crossbow "rt on a MCA card" thing I think worked with a PS/2 Mod 60 shell. boot began from BIOS on the 286 mobo and then switched over to complete on the RT card. CompSci here used to have a pile of them way back in the day. I remember some talk of using dual crossbows to get a dual CPU fire-breathing monster. well, you know, at least not slow as molasses On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > n.b. All of the available C compilers have "quirks" that make > development work a real challenge! > > For real rarity, there was an "RT on a card" that plugged into a > few of the later Microchannel boxen (Mod 80/85 I think) and let you > dual boot DOS and AOS. Never was able to get ahold of this bugger. > From root at parse.com Mon Jan 21 19:02:43 2008 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:02:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Lot of 176 PDP-11/DEC Boards Message-ID: <200801220102.m0M12hi4002867@amd64.ott.parse.com> Hello, I'm wondering if anyone here is interested in purchasing the following lot of boards (I count 176) -- the vast majority of these are PDP-11 cards. I'd rather get rid of them in one lot than eBay them individually and deal with the hassles. This inventory is to the best of my knowledge, I would of course physically verify inventory before we finalized anything. I am located in Kanata, Ontario, Canada, K2M 1C5 for shipping, and I can do Canada Post, UPS, or Fedex (Ground or Express). I am entertaining offers until the end of the month or so; please email me directly. Cheers, -RK 4 M105 Address Selector 2 M234 KE11-A Registers 1 M7071 Waveform Generator 3 M7104 RK05 Disk Controller 1 (data buffer retgister and status) 3 M7105 RK05 Disk Controller 2 (major registers) 3 M7106 RK05 Disk Controller 3 (control module) 1 M7227 Plotter Control 2 M7228 REAL TIME PROGRAMMABLE CLOCK 1 M7263 UNIBUS CPU Module 2 M7264 LSI 11 CPU 1 M7265 KD11E PDP-11/34 Data Path 1 M7266 KD11E PDP-11/34 Control 1 M7270 KD11 1 M7516 DELQA Ethernet Adaptor 1 M7700 Dec Pak Index and Sector 5 M7705 Drive Control Logic 5 M7706 Interface Timing 6 M7707 Servo Control 6 M7708 Track Position Detector / PLO 1 M7710 Print Sequencer 1 M7711 Control Logic A 1 M7712 Control Logic ? (Blotted out, guess "B") 1 M7713 LCV 1 M7714 ? 1 M7715 Line Feed Control 1 M7716 HS50 Motor Translator 2 M7717 Motor Control 1 M7726 Floppy Disk Controller 1 M7727 Read/Write Control 5 M7729 RK06 SERVO ANALOG 1 M7744 RX-02 Floppy Disk Controller 1 M7745 RX-02 R/W Control 1 M780 KL11 U Teletype transmitter & receiver for KL11, 110 baud 2 M7800YA ASYNC TRANSMITTER & RCVR, WITHOUT EIA CHIPS,CURRE 1 M781 PC-11 Control 2 M7810 PC-11 Interface 2 M782 Interrupt Control 4 M7821 Interrupt Control 2 M783 Unibus Drivers 2 M784 Unibus Receivers 1 M7843 DR-11 2 M7846 RX11 Unibus Interface 7 M7847 MS11 (One of these is missing the voltage regulator (TO-3 package)) 4 M7850 Parity Module (2) 8 M7856 DL11-W,SLU/RTC OPTION 2 M7859 KY11-LB Programmer's Console 7 M7860 DR11-C = M786 + M105 + M7821 3 M7867 DVP 11-DA 1 M7895YA 48 (5V Optical Isolated) Channel Input DSS11 3 M7940 Serial Line Unit 4 M7941 16-bit Parallel Line Unit (DRV11) 8 M7944 4K RAM 3 M7946 RXV11 LSI 11 Interface 1 M7949 LAV-11 1 M7950 DRV11-B 1 M7952 Programmable Realtime Clock 1 M7955 MSV11-C LSI MOS Memory (4x16xIntel2104) 1 M796 Unibus Master Control 1 M798 UNIBUS driver 1 M7992 TXM UNIBUS CONTROL & CRC 1 M8012 Boot-Terminator and Diagnostic ROM Module 1 M8013 RLV-11 Disk Control 1 M8014 RLV-11 Bus Control 1 M8029 RXV21,Q-BUS RX02 INTERFACE,DO 2 M8043 DLV11J 4 Serial Line Unit 2 M8044DB 32k x 16 MOS Memory (M8045 PCB) 1 M8044DF 32k x 16 MOS Memory (M8045 PCB) 2 M8047 MXV 11 A 2 M8186 KDF11-AC DUAL HEIGHT CPU,Q-BU 3 M8192 DUAL HEIGHT CPU BRD (KDJ11-A) 1 M8256 RX211, UNIBUS RX02 INTERFACE 1 M8264 NO SACK Timeout Module 1 M8265 KD11E-A PDP-11/34A Data Path 1 M8266 KD11E-A PDP-11/34A Control 1 M827 KE11-A Clock & States 1 M8403 4 SLU 1 M8916 Logic and Write Board 1 M8931 Slave Clock and Motion Delay 1 M9001YC Gen Purpose Card 4 M9016 RK06 Cabling Bd. 1 M9301YA Bootstrap 2 M9301YF PDP11 Unibus Terminator/Bootstrap 1 M9302 11/04 UNIBUS TERMINATOR,FAR E -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices, http://www.parse.com/resume.html From pludikar at sympatico.ca Mon Jan 21 19:47:21 2008 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:47:21 -0500 Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: References: from "Peter" atJan 20, 8 07:36:43 pm Message-ID: > 4 shorted together ('measuer 0') and one unconencted one would be what I > expect. > The uncconected one will be at one end of the head edge connector > fingers. On the damaged head, which _other_ one is unconnected ? On the damaged head, three fingers at one end show shorted. I guess that means: 3) Other end of the R/W coil, 4) Centre tap of R/W and 5) Erase Are probably okay. Finger 2) shows o/c - this would be consistent with the fact that before I managed to fry the drive, the FDD could read data but on writing I lost all data (ie everything was erased) >> there's a variable pot RV101 and 2 pins to IC101 >> (CXD1007B) associated with X-adj and X-reset > Are these related to head alignment? I must say I am rather suprised. > Normally you physically move the head stepper motor slightly. There doesn't appear to be a physical way of moving the heads - I was speculating/hoping that RV101 and the 2 X related pins may have something to do with fine adjustment - but I have no real idea. The heads are mounted on a diecast bracket with locating holes. There are corresponding centring pins on the main diecast body and there's no discernable movement when the two are mated. I rigged up a small Shugart type interface board with manual switches that allowed me to exercise the main drive control (drive select, motor on, step direction, step etc.). The control logic on the FDD stops the head from stepping in the down direction once the track 0 sensor is activated. So my one of my thoughts is that the track 0 sensor actually defines the fine head position, but I don't know for sure. Any thoughts or suggestions? -Peter From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jan 22 01:11:53 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:11:53 -0800 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47959739.7050809@msm.umr.edu> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Status of the RESET line and power_good signal? I don't know if the original > power supplies had a "power good" signal but I know that on newer machines, > if the power is out of tolerance, it won't POST. > > >> >> I DO have a good meter, and a scope (and I know how to use it!) >> >> Look and see if the processor is being held reset, or if there is activity on the memory bus control lines. I don't have an 8088 pinout handy, but there are bus state lines that should be pretty quiet if you hold the processor reset. If they are rattleing then you got a lost processor somewhere if the bios isn't posting. Best would be a post card to decode outputs to port 80, but ... not on your list. The state lines are decoded by various parts of the hardware to determine if the bus is doing memory operations, I/O or other activities, so if they are going on a scope you can't infer much other than enough circuitry is going to make the processor run around. If the processor is not held reset, then there is not much to do but probably try to find a post card. There isn't much what you have will tell you as lots of things get signals, and you can't sync on much to tell what is working and what isn't. On the motherboard, the reset should be a short lived event. If it is held down, you probably have a bad power supply. There is no reset switch on an IBM PC, and other than the one applied by the power supply at power good, and when you do control alt delete, you won't be seeing it. Hope this gives some ideas. Best things to find somewhere is the advanced diagnostics set, which has lots of what you need, and a Post card, assuming the above don't suggest something. Jim From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 22 03:14:06 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:14:06 +0000 Subject: the PAL In-Reply-To: <798598.83660.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <798598.83660.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801220914.06420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Sunday 20 January 2008 21:08:51 Chris M wrote: > 16L8ACN. This is the PAL aboard the Acculogic > sIDE-1/16 XT-IDE controller I mentioned. Someone asked :) ... and here's a datasheet. http://noel.feld.cvut.cz/hw/philips/acrobat/6052.pdf Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to suggest that some of the pins are always inputs, and some may be configured as inputs or outputs. I reckon it would be possible to work out what's configured as input and what's configured as output, and from that determine the truth table of the PAL by brute-force methods (just try all the inputs in turn). From there you can start looking at how to reproduce it. Or, it might be doing something so blindingly obvious that you don't even need to do that - it could be that you could figure it out just from what it decodes and what it drives... Probably someone will point out a fatal flaw in this. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 22 03:18:12 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:18:12 +0000 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801220918.12231.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Monday 21 January 2008 23:22:00 Tony Duell wrote: > 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and "Refitting is the reverse of removal" ;-) Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 22 04:07:36 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:07:36 +0000 Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <977086.57661.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <977086.57661.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801221007.36242.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Sunday 20 January 2008 20:21:00 Chris M wrote: > of course everyone would opt for an authentic > original rodent, but how hard could it be to rig > virtually any mouse to work on, IWT, any computer? Depends on the mouse, depends on the computer. Quadrature mice are easy. At worst the "dot pitch" of the mouse won't match the original and the pointer will be too fast or too slow. Serial mice (not just PC serial, I mean any mouse that communicates via some sort of serial link) would be harder. You'd have to know what the computer was expecting, and what it might send - perhaps there's an "are you there" handshake on initialisation. You used to get combined PS/2 and Serial mice for PCs that came with a little adaptor. The adaptor only worked with the mice they were intended for, because the mouse detected the presence of the adaptor and sent serial mouse data instead of PS/2 mouse data. It might be possible to make a "smart enough" mouse adaptor that would suss out what it was plugged into from handshaking signals, and interface an ordinary mouse to it. Gordon From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 22 06:41:00 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:41:00 -0500 Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD Message-ID: <01C85CCA.3F8FD880@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:47:21 -0500 From: "Peter" Subject: RE: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD > 4 shorted together ('measuer 0') and one unconencted one would be what I > expect. > The uncconected one will be at one end of the head edge connector > fingers. On the damaged head, which _other_ one is unconnected ? On the damaged head, three fingers at one end show shorted. I guess that means: 3) Other end of the R/W coil, 4) Centre tap of R/W and 5) Erase Are probably okay. Finger 2) shows o/c - this would be consistent with the fact that before I managed to fry the drive, the FDD could read data but on writing I lost all data (ie everything was erased) >> there's a variable pot RV101 and 2 pins to IC101 >> (CXD1007B) associated with X-adj and X-reset > Are these related to head alignment? I must say I am rather suprised. > Normally you physically move the head stepper motor slightly. There doesn't appear to be a physical way of moving the heads - I was speculating/hoping that RV101 and the 2 X related pins may have something to do with fine adjustment - but I have no real idea. The heads are mounted on a diecast bracket with locating holes. There are corresponding centring pins on the main diecast body and there's no discernable movement when the two are mated. I rigged up a small Shugart type interface board with manual switches that allowed me to exercise the main drive control (drive select, motor on, step direction, step etc.). The control logic on the FDD stops the head from stepping in the down direction once the track 0 sensor is activated. So my one of my thoughts is that the track 0 sensor actually defines the fine head position, but I don't know for sure. Any thoughts or suggestions? -Peter -----------Reply: The track 0 sensor defines the track numbers, i.e. which track to start at. Adjusting where those tracks actually are on the disk is usually done by rotating the stepper motor; AFAIK there's no way to do that with any non- mechanical adjustment. I'd leave that as a last resort though; within reason, neither should affect the drive's ability to write to a *blank* disk and read those disks, and alignment and track 0 are probably not your issue. m From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 22 08:20:53 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:20:53 -0600 Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <977086.57661.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <977086.57661.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4795FBC5.2060207@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > --- Doc Shipley wrote: > >> If you can find an ISA IDE/FDC card without >> serial and parallel and >> without PC "BIOS entensions", a Seagate IDE Medalist >> under 2GB will work >> fine. I've got one running in mine. > > couldn't you just disable all the unnecessary stuff, > including the bios extensions? Granted I haven't tried every card out there, but in my experience, no. Except for a couple that had 1024+ cylinder support, I don't remember ever having an IDE card with BIOS extensions optional. I also forgot to explain the medalist requirement; it's the only known model drive that supports the entire command set used by the RT firmware and AIX. There's one command (which I never remember) that no other IDE drive was known to support. > of course everyone would opt for an authentic > original rodent, but how hard could it be to rig > virtually any mouse to work on, IWT, any computer? I hope so, and that somebody with that kind of skills gets around to it soonish. I, myself, like *having* the original mouse and *using* something comfortable, like a PS/2 Marble. Doc From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 08:32:58 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:32:58 +0000 Subject: Free Sun Enterprise 450 server and A-1000 RAID, London UK Message-ID: <575131af0801220632m582e0654sf1f448fde76242e2@mail.gmail.com> Anybody want a free Sun? I know the chap offering this personally, as it happens... - LP ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Roger Burton West Date: 22 Jan 2008 14:03 Subject: [FreeCycleLondon] OFFERED Sun Enterprise 450 server and A-1000 RAID, E13 To: FreecycleLondon at yahoogroups.com This is not capable of being used as a normal PC. It's a _large_ Sun server dating from around 1999 (model introduced in 1997). Four 400MHz UltraSparc-II processors, 4GB RAM, no discs on board but the A-1000 RAID unit has about 100GB in it. No monitor or keyboard. Solaris 8 installed, but a licence to run it is up to you (or just throw on Linux or a more recent Solaris). This is a big and heavy machine - 58cm high, 45cm wide, 65cm deep. It'll fit in an estate car or a van, but I wouldn't want to try it in a normal saloon. Loading or unloading is a job for at least two energetic people; I'll help you at this end. This is a very nice piece of kit, but I just don't have room for it and I'd like it out of my life as soon as possible... Roger -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 22 10:29:56 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:29:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: random unloved things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, David Griffith wrote: > I have some stuff that's free for shipping: > > Three 10base-FL AUI-to-fiber transceivers > One ISA SCSI card with DB25 connector. It's a PEL 1600 and carries an > Adaptec AIX-63600 chip. The transceivers are gone. The SCSI card is still waiting for a home. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 11:23:37 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:23:37 -0600 Subject: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730801191507h752d4908k33617f85f9f70c48@mail.gmail.com> <47929360.6070005@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <47962699.1000503@gmail.com> Jeff Brendle wrote: > And also remember that these things used funky ESDI drives, I > think mostly Maxstor, I think they topped out at 320MB. Yep, ours certainly has three ESDI Maxtors in it - I don't recall if they're 320MB or 360MB now. It's got a SCSI (external) tape unit with it too which is via some flavour of Adaptec controller (presumably the 1540B that Steve mentions). > The megapixel console monitor had real slow graphics but it > could use a Hercules card. The terminal cards had odd AMP connectors on > 'em I think. Ideally you get one with the slightly faster cpu card that > had added the moto fpu. We were lucky (thanks, Pete!) in that ours was a full CAD system with the faster CPU board setup and the 5085 graphics processor cabinet / 5081 display, plus it came with a boat-load of manuals and disks. Definitely a very weird and wonderful system :-) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 13:55:11 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:55:11 +0000 Subject: Free Sun Enterprise 450 server and A-1000 RAID, London UK In-Reply-To: <575131af0801220632m582e0654sf1f448fde76242e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0801220632m582e0654sf1f448fde76242e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0801221155l1365376bk33675066780a2e9@mail.gmail.com> On 22/01/2008, Liam Proven wrote: > Anybody want a free Sun? I know the chap offering this personally, as > it happens... Now gone. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 13:37:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:37:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Jan 21, 8 07:55:20 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > I have an IBM PC, 5150, 16-64KB motherboard, that appears to be dead. Power > on produces no display or disk activity (even after a while), and no beeps > from the speaker (I tried a couple of speakers, so I don't think it is a > speaker issue. > > >From what docs I found on the internet, the switches are set up properly for > the machine's configuration... > > I am pretty sure the motherboard is getting power. I checked at a RAM > socket, and all voltages were there, and well within specifications. > > The problem is, I'm not sure where to go from here. I have NO schematics, > and haven't ever troubleshot a 5150 before. > > I DO have a good meter, and a scope (and I know how to use it!) > > What would be the first things to check? The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, there's really nothing at all odd about it. So, I'd start by checking the power-good line from the PSU. Then the processor reset line (make sure the thing is not being held in the reset state). Check the clock signals round the 8284 clock generator. Then check for activity on the processor address and data pins and the ISA slot address and data pins. Also check to see if the processor is HALTed, IIRC some of the early POST tests will execute a HALT instruction if they fail. I also seem to rememebr that on a 5150 or 5160, you can read out the POST error code on one of the ports of the 8255, but I would have to check the details. You'll need the 8088, etc, data sheets to find those pins, but not the schemaitcs of the board. I do have scheamtics at least of the 64K-256K board (which I don't think is _that_ different in areas other than RAM), but as ever I don't have any way of scanning them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 13:51:06 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:51:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: from "Peter" at Jan 21, 8 08:47:21 pm Message-ID: > > > 4 shorted together ('measuer 0') and one unconencted one would be what I > > expect. > > > The uncconected one will be at one end of the head edge connector > > fingers. On the damaged head, which _other_ one is unconnected ? > > On the damaged head, three fingers at one end show shorted. I guess that > means: 3) Other end of the R/W coil, 4) Centre tap of R/W and 5) Erase > Are probably okay. Finger 2) shows o/c - this would be consistent with the > fact that before I managed to fry the drive, the FDD could read data but on > writing I lost all data (ie everything was erased) Yes, it sounds like one end of the R/W coil is open. That would not write at all (it probably would damage the data on the track if you tried ot write with it), it may read, but it won't read reliably. I _think_ the head assembly from an old Apple 800K drive will fit and work. > > >> there's a variable pot RV101 and 2 pins to IC101 > >> (CXD1007B) associated with X-adj and X-reset > > > Are these related to head alignment? I must say I am rather suprised. > > Normally you physically move the head stepper motor slightly. > > There doesn't appear to be a physical way of moving the heads - I was > speculating/hoping that RV101 and the 2 X related pins may have something to > do with fine adjustment - but I have no real idea. The heads are mounted on > a diecast bracket with locating holes. There are corresponding centring > pins on the main diecast body and there's no discernable movement when the > two are mated. Yes, the steeper motor mount has dowel pins and is pretty much fixed (althoguh I did manage to see a noticeable difference on a CE disk depending on whcih way I psuded it when tightening the screws. However, the noral adjustment is between the motor and the mouting. You loosen the mounting screws and slightly turn the motor housing. The point is that for a given 'step' of the motor (so the leadscrew and motor body are fixed relative to each other), turning the motor body turns the leadscrew relative to the drive, and thus scress the heads back and forth slightly. Note that on 3.5" drives, which are nromally 135tpi, this is a very delicate adjustment. The older full-height Sony units had gear teeth cut into the end of the motor housing, and there was a special tool (like a screwdrier witha pinion gear on the business end) that you used to turn it. I don't know the details of doing it on this drive. > > I rigged up a small Shugart type interface board with manual switches that > allowed me to exercise the main drive control (drive select, motor on, step > direction, step etc.). The control logic on the FDD stops the head from > stepping in the down direction once the track 0 sensor is activated. So my > one of my thoughts is that the track 0 sensor actually defines the fine head > position, but I don't know for sure. Any thoughts or suggestions? Not normally. In fact quite the opposite. Normally track 0 is defined as needing both the track 0 sensor to be operated _AND_ the stepper motor to be i nthe right phase (it's a 4-phase motor, IIRC, so tracks 0, 4, 8,... have one electical state of the motor driver, 1, 5, 9,... have a different one, ad so on). That means the sensor only has to be within 4 tracks of the right position. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 13:58:19 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:58:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the PAL In-Reply-To: <200801220914.06420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 22, 8 09:14:06 am Message-ID: > > On Sunday 20 January 2008 21:08:51 Chris M wrote: > > 16L8ACN. This is the PAL aboard the Acculogic > > sIDE-1/16 XT-IDE controller I mentioned. Someone asked :) > > ... and here's a datasheet. > http://noel.feld.cvut.cz/hw/philips/acrobat/6052.pdf > > Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to suggest that some of the pins > are always inputs, and some may be configured as inputs or outputs. Correct. The 16L8 (IIRC) has 10 pins that are always inputs, 2 pins that are always outputs amd 6 pins that can be configured as either. And note that you can take feedback from those 6 (if configured as outputs) into the logic array, thus meaning you can make sequentioal circuits (flip-flops, etc). That last can really complicate things. It means, for example, the concept of a truth table may not be valid (it's a 'sequence table', and that just cylcing through all the inputs and seeing what the outputs do is not enough. However, note there is no 'hidden state'. If the chip is programemd to make flip-flops, etc, then the output of each flip-flop appears on a pin (this is not true of more complex programmable logic chips). So there is some hope in cracking it. > > I reckon it would be possible to work out what's configured as input and > what's configured as output, and from that determine the truth table of the > PAL by brute-force methods (just try all the inputs in turn). From there you > can start looking at how to reproduce it. I would start by tracing scheamtics of the board if you;ve not already done so. That should tell you which pins are inputs and which are outputs (and which, if any, are bidirectional). It may also indicate if the device is possibly sequetional (if, for example, it's just an address decoder, then it's very likely to be purely combinatorial). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 14:01:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:01:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <200801220918.12231.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 22, 8 09:18:12 am Message-ID: > > On Monday 21 January 2008 23:22:00 Tony Duell wrote: > > > 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. > > It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and "Refitting is > the reverse of removal" ;-) If that's refering to those infernal Haynes manuals, I think we're better off without them.... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 22 13:28:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:28:54 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: <200801220732.m0M7WLe9063922@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801220732.m0M7WLe9063922@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4795D376.2323.1D163952@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:30:10 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > I think the restore operation will cause a carry meaning I need > to clear it here with something like: > > ora a ; or other carry clearing instruction I don't think so--let's consider a simple case, using 8 bits and -10. -10 = 0xf6 Our code looks like: add -10 to dividend skip next instruction if carryout subtract -10 from divident The question is "what is the value of the carry bit here?" Let's try some sample values. 0 + 0xF6 = 0xF6, no carry, subtract 0xF6 = 0, no carry/borrow 9 + 0xF6 = 0xFF, no carry, subtract 0xF6 = 9, no carry/borrow 10 + 0xF6 = 0x00, carry; skip the subtract 11 + 0xF6 = 0x01, carry; skip the subtract So the "ora a" to clear the carry shouldn't be required. Saves a few more cycles. For those porting this method to other platforms, be aware that the 6502/PIC subtract works differently than the x80; the carry bit represents "not borrow" instead of "borrow". The same algorithm can be implemented nearly as efficiently on the 8085 by using the "undocumented" instructions, as it includes a double-precision subtract (as well as a 16-bit arithmetic right shift) as a 1-byte instruction. Note that the BC pair must be used in place of DE to use this instruction. It might be possible to implement the algorithm efficiently on the 8080 by letting BC = -DE and using an ADD HL,BC instead of a SBC HL,DE. One is left without a loop counter register however--but then one could "prime" the A register with a 1 and iterate until the 1 migrates to the sign bit of A, then mask it out as part of the exit code. Cheers, Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Jan 22 13:16:57 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:16:57 +0000 Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <977086.57661.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <47938E34.9090502@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6bpki0$7qkhc5@toip3.srvr.bell.ca> > --- Doc Shipley wrote: > > > If you can find an ISA IDE/FDC card without > > serial and parallel and > > without PC "BIOS entensions", a Seagate IDE Medalist > > under 2GB will work > > fine. I've got one running in mine. > > couldn't you just disable all the unnecessary stuff, > including the bios extensions? PS: pull the BIOS extension IC even you have to cut it or lift a leg to disable. And set it to stock addresses. Gee!! If I had known, I'd be playing with IDE on a RT that I had, it was desktop! With some issues. Did the OS complains of no HD if I try to boot with the diskettes? It failed (diagnostic LED display) at one point late in the boot up process. No longer have that RT, long ago now. Cheers, Wizard From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 22 18:42:51 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:42:51 -0700 Subject: HP/CHM software release update? Message-ID: <47968D8B.3030509@Rikers.org> I email Al, but did not yet get a reply. I realize folks are busy, so I thought I'd ask on the list for an update. Anyone know the status on releasing the older Hewlett Packard software that the agreement with the Computer History Museum allowed for? I know there are others on this list that have HP software, is it now legal to put that up someplace? or does it need a CHM stamp of some kind first? Is the agreement available for review? Side Note: I'll be in San Jose tomorrow (Jan 23) and plan to drop by the CHM in the afternoon. I'll hit some stores and scrounge sites in the area as well to see what I can find that I can't possibly take back on the plane with me. :) You suppose I could check an HP-2116 as luggage? 230lbs might be a bit over the weight limit, but it's close, right? :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 18:49:59 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:49:59 -0800 Subject: HP/CHM software release update? In-Reply-To: <47968D8B.3030509@Rikers.org> References: <47968D8B.3030509@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <7d3530220801221649v11ded4d9w284470daa095cc88@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 22, 2008 4:42 PM, Tim Riker wrote: > Side Note: I'll be in San Jose tomorrow (Jan 23) and plan to drop by the > CHM in the afternoon. I'll hit some stores and scrounge sites in the > area as well to see what I can find that I can't possibly take back on > the plane with me. :) > I'm not too far from San Jose, been planning to visit the CHM for a while now. Do you have some recommended stores/scrounge sites to check out while I'm down there? John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 22 19:16:29 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:16:29 -0700 Subject: Scrounging in San Jose In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801221649v11ded4d9w284470daa095cc88@mail.gmail.com> References: <47968D8B.3030509@Rikers.org> <7d3530220801221649v11ded4d9w284470daa095cc88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4796956D.1060606@Rikers.org> John Floren wrote: > I'm not too far from San Jose, been planning to visit the CHM for a > while now. Do you have some recommended stores/scrounge sites to check > out while I'm down there? Passing on a link from IRC. http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/calswapindex.html -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 22 19:32:00 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:32:00 -0800 Subject: IBM 9221 mainframe at auction In-Reply-To: <561575.61996.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <561575.61996.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47969910.4060003@sbcglobal.net> See: http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=232039 Includes: (1) IBM 9221-200 Mainframe (96 meg) (2) IBM 6262-014 Band Printers (5) IBM 3174 11R Controllers (3) IBM 3174 11L Controllers (1) IBM 3174 51R Controller (1) IBM 3174 61R Controller Lot of hardware for $10 Bob From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 21:10:19 2008 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:10:19 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting Message-ID: Hello all and thanks for the suggestions... Here's the story so far: 1) Power appears good -- measured correct voltages at power supply header on motherboard, and at various chips on the motherboard. All seem to be within specs 2) "Power good" line stays at +5VDC -- I believe this is correct, and signals that power is indeed good 3) Processor reset line -- at power up, briefly goes to +5VDC, then back to 0VDC and stays at 0VDC -- I don't think it is active low, so this should be correct, right?? 4) Triple-checked configuration switches, and they are correct for the configuration 5) Clock input to 8088 is dead-on 4.77xxxxxx MHz (my scope shows all the digits, but I don't remember them :-) -- I think the 4.77MHz is close enough). 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? That's where I am right now ... I'll remeasure the ADxx lines, and post the full list of values .... Thanks again for all the suggestions!!! Rich B. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 22 21:20:48 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:20:48 -0800 Subject: HP-CHM agreement In-Reply-To: <4796B17B.2030803@bitsavers.org> References: <4796B17B.2030803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4796B290.30106@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > I annouced a few months ago that the agreement had been signed. > > I'm attaching a pdf. If the attachement gets eaten, i'll put it > on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/ > Looks like the message was eaten. The pdf is on bitsavers for you to take a look at. CHM hasn't issued a press release about it since we're still doing things like trying to convert the interleaf formatted manuals to pdfs and are organizing what we have. What HP actually donated was materal from about the last 10 years of the product's life (RTE-A, mostly). The earlier code is coming from other holdings. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 21:33:15 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:33:15 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: <4795D376.2323.1D163952@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801220732.m0M7WLe9063922@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4795D376.2323.1D163952@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > >> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:30:10 -0800 >> From: dwight elvey > >> I think the restore operation will cause a carry meaning I need >> to clear it here with something like: >> >> ora a ; or other carry clearing instruction > > I don't think so--let's consider a simple case, using 8 bits and -10. > > -10 = 0xf6 > > Our code looks like: > > add -10 to dividend > skip next instruction if carryout > subtract -10 from divident > > The question is "what is the value of the carry bit here?" > > Let's try some sample values. > > 0 + 0xF6 = 0xF6, no carry, subtract 0xF6 = 0, no carry/borrow > 9 + 0xF6 = 0xFF, no carry, subtract 0xF6 = 9, no carry/borrow > 10 + 0xF6 = 0x00, carry; skip the subtract > 11 + 0xF6 = 0x01, carry; skip the subtract > > So the "ora a" to clear the carry shouldn't be required. Saves a few > more cycles. Hi Chuck This always confuses me. I guess the Z80 does the compliment and +1 to the F6. That wouldn't create a carry. I always get this mixed up. I usually just run the code a few times with different values to see what it does. I'll take your word on this one. > > For those porting this method to other platforms, be aware that the > 6502/PIC subtract works differently than the x80; the carry bit > represents "not borrow" instead of "borrow". That is most likely why I get mixed up. I've done a lot of 6502 and 6800 stuff. > > The same algorithm can be implemented nearly as efficiently on the > 8085 by using the "undocumented" instructions, as it includes a > double-precision subtract (as well as a 16-bit arithmetic right > shift) as a 1-byte instruction. Note that the BC pair must be used > in place of DE to use this instruction. > > It might be possible to implement the algorithm efficiently on the > 8080 by letting BC = -DE and using an ADD HL,BC instead of a SBC > HL,DE. One is left without a loop counter register however--but then > one could "prime" the A register with a 1 and iterate until the 1 > migrates to the sign bit of A, then mask it out as part of the exit > code. > Ok Here goes with using your idea to double use the a register. Except If I start it with 2, I can use the carry instead of the sign bit. What fun! Div10: ld a,#2 ld de,#-640d divloop: add hl,de jr c, div1 sbc hl,de div1: rl a jr nc,divloop add hl,hl ret _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 22 21:38:25 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:38:25 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801222238.25838.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 January 2008 22:10, Richard Beaudry wrote: > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? The exact value measured probably isn't important, but if the scope isn't showing any activity then it may be caused by the various buffers and such not being enabled by whatever it is that controls them (it's been a *long* time since I looked at the schematic for one of those :-). These are probably slightly different values because they're different chips, maybe. Figuring out what's supposed to be controlling those might be a next step. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jan 22 21:26:49 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:26:49 -0800 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4796B3F9.6020903@msm.umr.edu> Richard Beaudry wrote: > > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? > On several of the CPU's if you hold the processor reset, you actually get the reset vector address out. So on the 8088 8086 80186, you get FFF0 out. I don't know if 8088 has all 16 lines out, or is multiplexed, but on the 186 we could troubleshoot a board we had with a 186 on it for a support processor by setting a flipflop that held it reset, and then look at the lines with a scope. Jim From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 22:30:20 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:30:20 -0600 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4796B3F9.6020903@msm.umr.edu> References: <4796B3F9.6020903@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: You should indeed have activity on the address lines, take another look as the machine comes up, they should be toggling, even briefly. Could be that data lines are stuck, and/or it is getting a halt somewhere. Another trick would be connect a 1k to +5, and touch it to the reset line, you should see the address lines blip a little then. If they never change state the processor is dead or the mux buffers stuck (74245's?) . If you can build a little proto board to plug into the processor socket so you can disconnect the address lines from the board, you should be able to 'free run' the processor, and see activity. If those address lines dont toggle with clock, power applied and reset low, I would suspect the processor. Randy > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:26:49 -0800 > From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu > To: > Subject: Re: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting > > Richard Beaudry wrote: > > > > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem > > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter > > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. > > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? > > > On several of the CPU's if you hold the processor reset, you actually > get the reset vector address out. So on the 8088 8086 80186, you get > FFF0 out. I don't know if 8088 has all 16 lines out, or is multiplexed, > but on the 186 we could troubleshoot a board we had with a 186 on it for > a support processor by setting a flipflop that held it reset, and then > look at the lines with a scope. > > Jim _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From dave at mitton.com Tue Jan 22 19:21:27 2008 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:21:27 -0500 Subject: OLD Computer Magazines to go Message-ID: <200801230430.m0N4UHpc047704@keith.ezwind.net> I'm trying to get rid of some older computer magazines to anyone interested in picking them up (Northwest of Boston) or paying Media mail rates. PC Tech Journal 1985 thru 1989v4 with a couple missing 1988 issues and 1984 v1 & v6. Dr Dobbs Journal: 1976 v1 book reissue & Mar, Sept, Oct and most of years 1977 thru 1985 I also have many issues of S-100 Microsystems/Microsystems/Microsystems Journal for 1980 thru 1988. I filled in the missing issues at the CHM and therefore the list is now full of holes. Exact issue counts available upon request. Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 22:35:18 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:35:18 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: References: <200801220732.m0M7WLe9063922@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4795D376.2323.1D163952@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com ---snip-- > > Ok > Here goes with using your idea to double use the a register. Except > If I start it with 2, I can use the carry instead of the sign bit. What fun! > > > Div10: > ld a,#2 > ld de,#-640d > divloop: > add hl,de > jr c, div1 > sbc hl,de > div1: > rl a > jr nc,divloop > add hl,hl > ret > Oops!! I blew it. I forgot an 'add hl,hl' !!!!!!$$$#### Here is the change using the sign bit instead. Still saves time and cycles by not needing the DJNZ. One less cycle per loop. The and at the end balances the ld B#7 but the ld a, #1 is one more byte. Still the jp is faster than the jr for the 7 loops. Still 19 bytes! div10: ld a,#1 ld de,#-640d divloop: add hl,de jr c,div1 sbc hl,de div1: rl a add hl,hl jp p,div1 add hl,hl and #7F ret Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Tue Jan 22 22:41:02 2008 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:41:02 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting Message-ID: <9460701.1229931201063262192.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> > >You should indeed have activity on the address lines, take another look as the >machine comes up, they should be toggling, even briefly. Could be that data >lines are stuck, and/or it is getting a halt somewhere. Another trick would >be connect a 1k to +5, and touch it to the reset line, you should see the >address lines blip a little then. If they never change state the processor is >dead or the mux buffers stuck (74245's?) . > >If you can build a little proto board to plug into the processor socket so you >can disconnect the address lines from the board, you should be able to 'free >run' the processor, and see activity. If those address lines dont toggle with >clock, power applied and reset low, I would suspect the processor. > >Randy > > >> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:26:49 -0800 >> From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu >> To: >> Subject: Re: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting >> >> Richard Beaudry wrote: >> > >> > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem >> > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter >> > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. >> > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? >> > >> On several of the CPU's if you hold the processor reset, you actually >> get the reset vector address out. So on the 8088 8086 80186, you get >> FFF0 out. I don't know if 8088 has all 16 lines out, or is multiplexed, >> but on the 186 we could troubleshoot a board we had with a 186 on it for >> a support processor by setting a flipflop that held it reset, and then >> look at the lines with a scope. >> >> Jim > I did some troubleshooting of some of my 5150's using the "Sam's IBM PC Troubleshooting and Repair Guide Book". I noticed that there is one on eBay right now, item #190193033366. Might help. david. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 22 22:43:25 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:43:25 -0600 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4796C5ED.7090403@oldskool.org> First of all, a giant thank-you to Tony for getting it all right (from memory, no less). Unfortunately, I still need advice: Tony Duell wrote: > 9) Fit the flaps, taking care to ket the space bar one correctly > positioned. Fit the base/PCB and slide it over to lock it. Don't bend the > tab yet. Prese the space bar down so it clicks in place, and check it > clicks and returns properly. If not, you need to take the baseplate off > again and have another go. While this fixed the spacebar, it has rendered other keys unusable. I have taken it completely apart and reassembled it three times now and no matter what I do, the return key is dodgy (doesn't always register, or registers twice) and the numeric "-" is dead. I have looked at the surfaces, both on the board and the buckling spring assemblies, and everything looks clean -- I can't see why I'm getting screwball key behavior on a few keys. I've completely rearranged the buckling spring assemblies (they are identical) so I'm not sure what else I can do... any advice? On a side note, how does this mechanism work? I understand how the buckling spring mechanism works, but it looks like a piece of plastic is hitting two metal pads -- since plastic doesn't conduct electricity, how is this working at all? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 23 00:27:23 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:27:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <4796C5ED.7090403@oldskool.org> References: <4796C5ED.7090403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200801230630.BAA06492@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] it looks like a piece of plastic is hitting two metal pads -- > since plastic doesn't conduct electricity, how is this working at > all? Some plastics do conduct, at least enough to be useful. (A plastic not designed to be conductive generally won't be, but that doesn't mean anything about plastics designed for conductivity.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk Tue Jan 22 03:18:03 2008 From: gpearce at curiousgroup.co.uk (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:18:03 +0000 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801220918.03074.gpearce@curiousgroup.co.uk> On Monday 21 January 2008 23:22:00 Tony Duell wrote: > 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and "Refitting is the reverse of removal" ;-) Gordon From jaspat at netmagic.net Tue Jan 22 10:08:00 2008 From: jaspat at netmagic.net (Jim Patterson) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:08:00 -0800 Subject: DEC/VG Datasystem/System Industries/Western Dynex Message-ID: <000001c85d10$f7872bf0$6400a8c0@jimmbf01erxjtg> Jay, I was trying to locate the name of the owner/founder of Western Digital and came across your note re System Industries disk controller and Western Dynex drive. I was the VP of Engineering at System Industries from 1973 to 1979. The 3040 and 3051 were disk controllers we developed during that time. As I recall the 3051 was a 3040 with ECC added - could be wrong. I am still in touch with some of the engineers from those days who may be able to answer specific question. Let me know. Jim Patterson mail4jlpatterson at yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 11:02:57 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: the PAL In-Reply-To: <200801220914.06420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <101610.70833.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I'd go as far as to melt the epoxy off the thing to get at the internal configuration. But only if burning a new PAL is easy and cheap. --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sunday 20 January 2008 21:08:51 Chris M wrote: > > 16L8ACN. This is the PAL aboard the Acculogic > > sIDE-1/16 XT-IDE controller I mentioned. Someone > asked :) > > ... and here's a datasheet. > http://noel.feld.cvut.cz/hw/philips/acrobat/6052.pdf > > Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to > suggest that some of the pins > are always inputs, and some may be configured as > inputs or outputs. > > I reckon it would be possible to work out what's > configured as input and > what's configured as output, and from that determine > the truth table of the > PAL by brute-force methods (just try all the inputs > in turn). From there you > can start looking at how to reproduce it. > > Or, it might be doing something so blindingly > obvious that you don't even need > to do that - it could be that you could figure it > out just from what it > decodes and what it drives... > > Probably someone will point out a fatal flaw in > this. > > Gordon. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 11:07:12 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:07:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <200801221007.36242.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <515982.91903.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Sunday 20 January 2008 20:21:00 Chris M wrote: > > > of course everyone would opt for an authentic > > original rodent, but how hard could it be to rig > > virtually any mouse to work on, IWT, any computer? > > Depends on the mouse, depends on the computer. > Quadrature mice are easy. At > worst the "dot pitch" of the mouse won't match the > original and the pointer > will be too fast or too slow. Serial mice (not just > PC serial, I mean any > mouse that communicates via some sort of serial > link) would be harder. You'd > have to know what the computer was expecting, and > what it might send - > perhaps there's an "are you there" handshake on > initialisation. So you're saying this would indicate there's some sort of firmware built into the mouse itself? > You used to get combined PS/2 and Serial mice for > PCs that came with a little > adaptor. The adaptor only worked with the mice they > were intended for, > because the mouse detected the presence of the > adaptor and sent serial mouse > data instead of PS/2 mouse data. AFAIK any of the common PS/2 mice can be use as serial, at least. Not sure if there are adapters to convert the other way though. Or if they'd work. Can't see why not though. I do have at least 1 mouse, a Goldstar branded, that has a switch to go from, IINM (actually this could be erroneous) bus or serial. Maybe that is correct though. > It might be possible to make a "smart enough" mouse > adaptor that would suss > out what it was plugged into from handshaking > signals, and interface an > ordinary mouse to it. I haven't a clue what you're talking about mate. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 16:53:42 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:53:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, > there's really nothing at > all odd about it. what examples could you give as a not so conventional 8088 board? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 16:54:51 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:54:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: the PAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <864156.53540.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I do have jpegs of this board if anyone is interested. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Sunday 20 January 2008 21:08:51 Chris M wrote: > > > 16L8ACN. This is the PAL aboard the Acculogic > > > sIDE-1/16 XT-IDE controller I mentioned. Someone > asked :) > > > > ... and here's a datasheet. > > > http://noel.feld.cvut.cz/hw/philips/acrobat/6052.pdf > > > > Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to > suggest that some of the pins > > are always inputs, and some may be configured as > inputs or outputs. > > Correct. The 16L8 (IIRC) has 10 pins that are always > inputs, 2 pins that > are always outputs amd 6 pins that can be configured > as either. And note > that you can take feedback from those 6 (if > configured as outputs) into > the logic array, thus meaning you can make > sequentioal circuits > (flip-flops, etc). > > That last can really complicate things. It means, > for example, the > concept of a truth table may not be valid (it's a > 'sequence table', and > that just cylcing through all the inputs and seeing > what the outputs do > is not enough. However, note there is no 'hidden > state'. If the chip is > programemd to make flip-flops, etc, then the output > of each flip-flop > appears on a pin (this is not true of more complex > programmable logic > chips). So there is some hope in cracking it. > > > > > I reckon it would be possible to work out what's > configured as input and > > what's configured as output, and from that > determine the truth table of the > > PAL by brute-force methods (just try all the > inputs in turn). From there you > > can start looking at how to reproduce it. > > I would start by tracing scheamtics of the board if > you;ve not already > done so. That should tell you which pins are inputs > and which are outputs > (and which, if any, are bidirectional). It may also > indicate if the > device is possibly sequetional (if, for example, > it's just an address > decoder, then it's very likely to be purely > combinatorial). > > -tony > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From pludikar at sympatico.ca Tue Jan 22 18:35:48 2008 From: pludikar at sympatico.ca (Peter) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:35:48 -0500 Subject: Head alignment for legacy Sony FDD In-Reply-To: References: from "Peter" atJan 21, 8 08:47:21 pm Message-ID: Tony and everyone else, Thank you - I've loosened the stepper motor drive and with a 'scope have been able to see the size of the signal on test point RF change as I've turned the motor. Now that you've shown me how to change the adjustment, it's so obvious. That's solved that problem. Now I have to find an old Apple 800K drive. Peter From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 23 03:04:03 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:04:03 +0000 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801230904.03184.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Tuesday 22 January 2008 22:53:42 Chris M wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, > > there's really nothing at > > all odd about it. > > what examples could you give as a not so conventional > 8088 board? Casio FZ sampler range? Gordon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 07:26:29 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:26:29 -0800 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <200801230630.BAA06492@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4796C5ED.7090403@oldskool.org> <200801230630.BAA06492@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > From: mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > >> [...] it looks like a piece of plastic is hitting two metal pads -- >> since plastic doesn't conduct electricity, how is this working at >> all? > > Some plastics do conduct, at least enough to be useful. (A plastic not > designed to be conductive generally won't be, but that doesn't mean > anything about plastics designed for conductivity.) > Hi It could be capacitive. Plastic could be used in such a case and wouldn't need to conduct. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 07:32:35 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:32:35 -0800 Subject: the PAL In-Reply-To: <101610.70833.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200801220914.06420.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <101610.70833.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > I'd go as far as to melt the epoxy off the thing to > get at the internal configuration. But only if burning > a new PAL is easy and cheap. > > --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> On Sunday 20 January 2008 21:08:51 Chris M wrote: >>> 16L8ACN. This is the PAL aboard the Acculogic >>> sIDE-1/16 XT-IDE controller I mentioned. Someone >> asked :) >> > Hi It is a L device. All can easily be deduced from the pins. As for cases that the line may be either input or output. putting the an input signal through a resistor would be enough. Use a 1 K. If you can pull it low and high with a 1 K series, it is not driven internally. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 09:22:09 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:22:09 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: References: <200801220732.m0M7WLe9063922@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4795D376.2323.1D163952@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com >> > > Oops!! I blew it. I forgot an 'add hl,hl' !!!!!!$$$#### > > Here is the change using the sign bit instead. Still saves time and cycles > by not needing the DJNZ. One less cycle per loop. The and at the end > balances the ld B#7 but the ld a, #1 is one more byte. Still the jp > is faster than the jr for the 7 loops. Still 19 bytes! > > div10: > ld a,#1 > ld de,#-640d > divloop: > add hl,de > jr c,div1 > sbc hl,de > div1: > rl a > add hl,hl > jp p,div1 > add hl,hl > and #7F > ret > > Dwight > Hi It is getting bad, I'm dreaming solutions now. Here is one that uses the minimum bytes but is slightly slower because of the jr instead of the jp for the loop: div10: ld a,#2 ld de,#-1280d divloop: add hl,hl add hl,de jr c,div1 sbc hl,de div1: rl a jr c,div1 add hl,hl ret This is 16 bytes. One could still reduce the loop clocks by 9 cycles at the cost of one more byte. This could be done by replacing the jr c,div1 with a jp c,div1. ;) Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 10:26:08 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:26:08 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic In-Reply-To: References: <200801220732.m0M7WLe9063922@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4795D376.2323.1D163952@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:22:09 -0800 > Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 was RE: Reading Polymorphic > > > > > >> From: dkelvey at hotmail.com >>> >> >> Oops!! I blew it. I forgot an 'add hl,hl' !!!!!!$$$#### >> >> Here is the change using the sign bit instead. Still saves time and cycles >> by not needing the DJNZ. One less cycle per loop. The and at the end >> balances the ld B#7 but the ld a, #1 is one more byte. Still the jp >> is faster than the jr for the 7 loops. Still 19 bytes! >> >> div10: >> ld a,#1 >> ld de,#-640d >> divloop: >> add hl,de >> jr c,div1 >> sbc hl,de >> div1: >> rl a >> add hl,hl >> jp p,div1 Oops Should be jp p,divloop Dwight >> add hl,hl >> and #7F >> ret >> >> Dwight >> > > Hi > It is getting bad, I'm dreaming solutions now. > Here is one that uses the minimum bytes but is slightly > slower because of the jr instead of the jp for the loop: > > div10: > ld a,#2 > ld de,#-1280d > divloop: > add hl,hl > add hl,de > jr c,div1 > sbc hl,de > div1: > rl a > jr c,div1 > add hl,hl > ret > > This is 16 bytes. One could still reduce the loop clocks by > 9 cycles at the cost of one more byte. This could be done > by replacing the jr c,div1 with a jp c,div1. ;) > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 23 11:09:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:09:58 -0700 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:53:42 -0800. <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <573524.80932.qm at web61024.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, > > there's really nothing at > > all odd about it. > > what examples could you give as a not so conventional > 8088 board? VT100 terminal? (OK, maybe it used an 8080, but you get the idea.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jan 23 10:07:32 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:07:32 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <200801230752.m0N7qC7S084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7S084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2008, at 11:52 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. > > It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and > "Refitting is > the reverse of removal" ;-) The one I like is the stock "this was changed in the XXXX model year" Oh, very helpful. About as helpful as a MS-DOS 6 bundled "user's guide" From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jan 23 12:30:50 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:30:50 -0300 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting References: Message-ID: <017c01c85dee$337abae0$0402a8c0@portajara> > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? BIOS perhaps? :oO From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 11:31:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:31:50 -0800 Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:33:15 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Here goes with using your idea to double use the a register. Except > If I start it with 2, I can use the carry instead of the sign bit. What > fun! > > Div10: > ld a,#2 > ld de,#-640d > divloop: > add hl,de > jr c, div1 > sbc hl,de > div1: > rl a > jr nc,divloop > add hl,hl > ret Ah, but you forgot the add hl,hl to shift the dividend after each iteration. Put it at the top of the loop so it doesn't interfere with the operation of the "rl a/jr nc" pair and scale your divisor by an additional power of 2 and you should have it. By now, we've probably bored the hardware guys to tears and DEC people are tearing out their hair, so we should probably drop the subject. My apologies, but I've always found bit-twiddling fun. It seems that every platform has some peculiar characteristic that can be exploited to good advantage. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 23 11:41:23 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:41:23 +0000 Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <515982.91903.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <515982.91903.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47977C43.2000100@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2008 17:07, Chris M wrote: > --- Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> You used to get combined PS/2 and Serial mice for >> PCs that came with a little >> adaptor. The adaptor only worked with the mice they >> were intended for, >> because the mouse detected the presence of the >> adaptor and sent serial mouse >> data instead of PS/2 mouse data. > > AFAIK any of the common PS/2 mice can be use as > serial, at least. That's often not the case. I have several PS/2-compatible mice from Logitech and from DEC, Compaq, and SGI machines that can't be used as serial. Different voltages, different clocking, different protocols. In general, only ones designed specifically for this and which were originally supplied with an adapter will do both. A quick look at almost any supplier's catalogue will show you lots that are PS/2 only. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 23 11:55:54 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:55:54 +0000 Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47977FAA.50809@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2008 17:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > By now, we've probably bored the hardware guys to tears and DEC > people are tearing out their hair, so we should probably drop the > subject. Well, I collect DEC kit and build/mend hardware, and I found it interesting. But I learned on Z80s :-) > My apologies, but I've always found bit-twiddling fun. It seems that > every platform has some peculiar characteristic that can be exploited > to good advantage. Me too -- I've just been attempting that with PIC code for the first time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 12:22:11 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:22:11 -0800 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 In-Reply-To: <200801231800.m0NI056b088877@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801231800.m0NI056b088877@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47971553.25160.21FF7846@cclist.sydex.com> On Tuesday 22 January 2008 22:53:42 Chris M wrote: > what examples could you give as a not so conventional > 8088 board? The console control in the Ruffatti pipe organ at St. Mary's Cathedral in San Francisco? (I don't recall exactly--could be an 8086). Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 23 12:24:27 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:24:27 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 Message-ID: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> In Aug, 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > Speaking of core memory, I used to work for a company that was still > shipping core-based systems in 1985, when I first joined them right out > of college. > > The machine was the "BTI 8000", made by BTI Computer Systems, based in > Sunnyvale, CA. I worked there for only a year, but I have some > recollection of the machine. I turned up a brochure and technical summary last night, scans up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bti From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 23 12:58:08 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:58:08 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47978E3F.320A5611@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > By now, we've probably bored the hardware guys to tears and DEC > people are tearing out their hair, so we should probably drop the > subject. > > My apologies, but I've always found bit-twiddling fun. It seems that > every platform has some peculiar characteristic that can be exploited > to good advantage. I'm still following this and watching the improvements. (I'm still looking at what docs I have here to ascertain exactly which way the Z80 vs 6800 borrow works, but some of it's ambiguous (just for my own sake, I still do some assembler for both of them on occasion)). Of course, from a clarity-is-all-important modern software design perspective, we should all be shot. If I were an economist, I would predict that at this rate, in another few weeks the routine will be down to 1 byte. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jan 23 13:10:23 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:10:23 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> References: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4797911F.4040405@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Al Kossow wrote: | I turned up a brochure and technical summary last night, scans up under | http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bti Oh man, is that a blast from the past. Of course the system as it existed in 1978 was nothing like what is described in the glossies with much of the I/O still being handled by the BTI 5000 emulator that hung off the side. All in all it was a pretty cool machine, even if it was one giant example of second system syndrome. - -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA6KY http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkeXkRwACgkQVeEgoxCNq5c+MQCffNxa/8+GVTE8MNplyKVmhrnK ascAniXblcSX2vh5BXEwicyuYargspjl =IZjA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 23 13:39:58 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:39:58 -0700 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <47978E3F.320A5611@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> <47978E3F.320A5611@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Of course, from a clarity-is-all-important modern software design perspective, > we should all be shot. > > If I were an economist, I would predict that at this rate, in another few weeks > the routine will be down to 1 byte. It could real soon ... We have yet to study the *secret Z80* instructions. BTW was this for disk sector calculations again? What OS? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 23 14:16:13 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:16:13 -0700 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:24:27 -0800. <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4797865B.8010704 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I turned up a brochure and technical summary last night, scans up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bti Damn! Look at those incedibly funky terminals on the left hand side of page 3: It looks like a video tube mounted on a base *above* a selectric typewriter! I also don't recognize the terminals in the bottom right of that same page, but they look like much more ordinary video display terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Wed Jan 23 15:25:16 2008 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:25:16 +0000 Subject: Seagate ST11R ST412 controller + Mitsubishi MR535R Message-ID: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> Hello! I have an elderly Mitsubishi MR535R (60Mb-ish RLL) connected to an ST11R controller. The control and data cables are homebrew although neatly and tidying put together. When I power up an old Pentium II - because it's the only box I have with ISA slots - the ST11R pops up a message on the screen, clunks the drive in an "I'm accessing you" kinda way, but then reports "No drives found" and continues merrily on its way. The cables are straight-through, and I have the drive set to DS1. If I set the drive to DS2, the BIOS sits there for several seconds but doesn't access the drive. As my knowledge is a tad rusty, can anyone help identify what the problem here is? BIOS shadowing is off for the memory locations that are, and could, be used by the card. The only thing I can think of is that the ST11R is in fact an ST11M, tries to read the drive, goes "Uh-oh, don't recognise you" and reports "No drive found". Unfortunately I lack an MFM hard drive to test this out with :( Peter -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jan 23 15:49:48 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:49:48 +0000 Subject: Seagate ST11R ST412 controller + Mitsubishi MR535R In-Reply-To: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> References: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 09:25:16PM +0000, Peter Hicks wrote: > Hello! > > I have an elderly Mitsubishi MR535R (60Mb-ish RLL) connected to an ST11R > controller. The control and data cables are homebrew although neatly and > tidying put together. > > When I power up an old Pentium II - because it's the only box I have with > ISA slots - the ST11R pops up a message on the screen, clunks the drive in > an "I'm accessing you" kinda way, but then reports "No drives found" and > continues merrily on its way. I have never tried an MFM drive on a machine newer than about a 386. No idea if the Pentium-II chipset or its BIOS could be adding to your troubles or not. > As my knowledge is a tad rusty, can anyone help identify what the problem > here is? BIOS shadowing is off for the memory locations that are, and > could, be used by the card. Good. > The only thing I can think of is that the ST11R is in fact an ST11M, tries > to read the drive, goes "Uh-oh, don't recognise you" and reports "No drive > found". So you are saying that this drive wasn't originally used with this controller? If that's the case, then you need to ensure that the drive is formatted for an ST11R. Even if the drive happens to be rated for MFM vs RLL (an ST-255 vs ST-238R, say), the controller will _try_ to format the drive. You just might have problems with completing the format with few enough errored sectors or with long-term use. The controller doesn't know anything about the drive that you don't tell it during formatting (well... if you tell it that you have 8 heads, it *will* notice that there are only, say, 6... but not the other way around). I don't have access to the 'net at the moment (for another 12 hours), so I can't look up the ST11R, but if you find docs, there should be formatting instructions. From memory, a common way to do it was to jump into DEBUG and call the formatter in ROM with something like 'G C800:5'. Some controllers did not have ROM formatters - they came on a floppy. The docs will sort all of that out. I don't think the BIOS will see an unformatted MFM/RLL drive on the end of a controller, or at best, you'll get a cryptic numerical error like "1701 drive error". It all depends on how new the BIOS on the controller is. Adaptec SCSI cards were, IMO, one of the better products for showing you meaningful errors and for the quality of their ROM-based formatter. MFM and RLL controllers were beyond terse. > Unfortunately I lack an MFM hard drive to test this out with :( You can format an RLL drive as MFM. Back in the day, it wasn't commonly done because of the 25%-40% cost differential (RLL drives were cheaper per byte than MFM, but not all that much). Formatting an MFM drive as RLL was always a crap shoot, but the controller _will_ give it a shot. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Jan-2008 at 21:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -30.1 F (-34.5 C) Windchill -49.4 F (-45.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 88 Barometer 686.0 mb (10403 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 15:52:23 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:52:23 -0500 Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... Message-ID: I'm fixing a PowerMac G4 for my Dad's wife. The original PS is dead. It was a pretty standard ATX supply, the only difference is that it supplies 28VDC at 4 Amps on two extra pins. Rather than spending a lot of money on a new supply (more than $250 from the few sources that will guarantee the PS) or a not insignificant amount on a used PS that could go at any time, I want to put in a new standard ATX supply and "tuck in" a small 28VDC PS to drive the two extra pins. The supply is always on, so I can power it from a pass through on the ATX supply. Does anyone have (or know where to get) a small supply? Thanks, Bill PS: This is sort of on topic because Apple says that this particular G4 is no longer supported and "vintage". No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jan 23 16:08:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:08:08 +0000 Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080123220808.GE19928@usap.gov> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 04:52:23PM -0500, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I'm fixing a PowerMac G4 for my Dad's wife. The original PS is dead. > It was a pretty standard ATX supply, the only difference is that it > supplies 28VDC at 4 Amps on two extra pins. Rather than spending a > lot of money on a new supply (more than $250 from the few sources that > will guarantee the PS) or a not insignificant amount on a used PS that > could go at any time, I want to put in a new standard ATX supply and > "tuck in" a small 28VDC PS to drive the two extra pins. The supply > is always on, so I can power it from a pass through on the ATX supply. > Does anyone have (or know where to get) a small supply? Bill, I don't know where you'd find a 28VDC supply without building one, but since AFAIK, it's just for externally-powered FireWire devices, you might be able to get along without it. Alternately, if you find an old laptop FireWire interface, I know I've seen them with external PSUs (I have one) since there's no way to pull the required current through the PCMCIA socket. You could probably rig one up as an external supply to the G4 and run it off the same power strip as the CPU. Have you tried running the box with a standard ATX supply? One thing to check, if you haven't, is the state of the -5V pin from the PSU. On my B&W G3, it's grounded on the motherboard. Given that there are already plenty of grounds on the cable, I just poked the offending pin out with a soldering iron. I _think_ Apple may have come to their senses after the G3, but it's something to be aware of. Good luck, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Jan-2008 at 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -30.1 F (-34.5 C) Windchill -50.5 F (-45.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 72 Barometer 686.1 mb (10399 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 23 16:20:10 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:20:10 -0700 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:10:23 -0800. <4797911F.4040405@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: In article <4797911F.4040405 at mainecoon.com>, Chris Kennedy writes: > Oh man, is that a blast from the past. Of course the system as it > existed in 1978 was nothing like what is described in the glossies with > much of the I/O still being handled by the BTI 5000 emulator that hung > off the side. Chris, Did you ever use one of those funky video display plus typewriter terminals shown in the brochure? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 16:27:41 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:27:41 -0500 Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: <20080123220808.GE19928@usap.gov> Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > Have you tried running the box with a standard ATX supply? Doesn't work. There's a good diagram here: http://www.outofspec.com/frankenmac/wire.shtml The box I'm fixing uses the Gigabit/DigitalAudio PS. Note the lack of the -5VDC and the +5DC standby. The +28 acts as the standby on this motherboard. Also, the monitor has no power cable. The +28VDC drives the monitor when the unit is powered on. I've seen a few web postings (including the site above) that suggest that the "whole" 28 volts isn't really required and that you can "get away with" 24 volts. I think this is OK if you are not driving the monitor, but in my case we are. Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 16:30:24 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:30:24 -0500 Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: <20080123220808.GE19928@usap.gov> Message-ID: By the way... The unit is running with an ATX supply with the -5 and +5 standby removed and the 28 driven by a bench supply. Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9/1238 - Release Date: 1/22/2008 8:12 PM From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 17:13:56 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:13:56 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801231813.56365.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 January 2008 17:53, Chris M wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, there's really nothing at > > all odd about it. > > what examples could you give as a not so conventional 8088 board? Well, my Tek scope has one in there, if I'm remembering right... (Or was that an 8086? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 17:25:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:25:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080123152418.S12641@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I > wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native > DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were > greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original > 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? On the 8088, an enormous amount of time is spent fetching instructions - so much so that AAM will usually outperform DIV From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 17:25:58 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:25:58 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST11R ST412 controller + Mitsubishi MR535R In-Reply-To: <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> References: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200801231825.58610.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 January 2008 16:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 09:25:16PM +0000, Peter Hicks wrote: > > Hello! > > > > I have an elderly Mitsubishi MR535R (60Mb-ish RLL) connected to an ST11R > > controller. The control and data cables are homebrew although neatly and > > tidying put together. > > > > When I power up an old Pentium II - because it's the only box I have with > > ISA slots - the ST11R pops up a message on the screen, clunks the drive > > in an "I'm accessing you" kinda way, but then reports "No drives found" > > and continues merrily on its way. > > I have never tried an MFM drive on a machine newer than about a 386. No > idea if the Pentium-II chipset or its BIOS could be adding to your troubles > or not. Last time I used any was back in the 286 days... (Snip) > > The only thing I can think of is that the ST11R is in fact an ST11M, > > tries to read the drive, goes "Uh-oh, don't recognise you" and reports > > "No drive found". > > So you are saying that this drive wasn't originally used with this > controller? If that's the case, then you need to ensure that the drive > is formatted for an ST11R. Even if the drive happens to be rated for MFM > vs RLL (an ST-255 vs ST-238R, say), the controller will _try_ to format > the drive. You just might have problems with completing the format with > few enough errored sectors or with long-term use. The controller doesn't > know anything about the drive that you don't tell it during formatting > (well... if you tell it that you have 8 heads, it *will* notice that there > are only, say, 6... but not the other way around). Yup. Back in those days there were always folks that tried that, and some got lucky, while others lost everything on the drive. It's my understanding that the key point there is the frequency limitation on one of the chips (read amplifier?) being 5 MHz. vs. 7.5 Mhz, or something like that. > I don't have access to the 'net at the moment (for another 12 hours), so I > can't look up the ST11R, but if you find docs, there should be formatting > instructions. From memory, a common way to do it was to jump into DEBUG > and call the formatter in ROM with something like 'G C800:5'. Some > controllers did not have ROM formatters - they came on a floppy. The > docs will sort all of that out. Since the card appears to be trying to do *something* I'm wondering if it's the BIOS on the card doing it, or that on the MB? > I don't think the BIOS will see an unformatted MFM/RLL drive on the end > of a controller, or at best, you'll get a cryptic numerical error like > "1701 drive error". It all depends on how new the BIOS on the controller > is. Adaptec SCSI cards were, IMO, one of the better products for showing > you meaningful errors and for the quality of their ROM-based formatter. > MFM and RLL controllers were beyond terse. One other possibility for getting some meaningful info that occurs to me is to get something like TomsRtBt, basically a bootable linux on a single floppy, and boot that -- then you can poke around and get a pretty good picture of just what the hardware sees. > > Unfortunately I lack an MFM hard drive to test this out with :( > > You can format an RLL drive as MFM. Back in the day, it wasn't > commonly done because of the 25%-40% cost differential (RLL drives > were cheaper per byte than MFM, but not all that much). Formatting > an MFM drive as RLL was always a crap shoot, but the controller _will_ > give it a shot. Yup. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 23 17:28:57 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:28:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: <20080123220808.GE19928@usap.gov> References: <20080123220808.GE19928@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 04:52:23PM -0500, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I'm fixing a PowerMac G4 for my Dad's wife. The original PS is dead. > It was a pretty standard ATX supply, the only difference is that it > supplies 28VDC at 4 Amps on two extra pins. Rather than spending a > lot of money on a new supply (more than $250 from the few sources that > will guarantee the PS) or a not insignificant amount on a used PS that > could go at any time, I want to put in a new standard ATX supply and > "tuck in" a small 28VDC PS to drive the two extra pins. The supply > is always on, so I can power it from a pass through on the ATX supply. > Does anyone have (or know where to get) a small supply? Bill: I don't know how solid your current requirement is, but here's one for 28VDC at 2A: http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17186+PS Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From FJGJR1 at aol.com Wed Jan 23 17:41:45 2008 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:41:45 EST Subject: My reply - Re: OLD Computer Magazines to go Message-ID: Dave, Thanks for replying to my other email. I am preparing a detailed reply, but have been busy with some other high priority projects. Overall, you seem to be the best source for and to send to such magazines! I am developing a list of sites related to Kaypros and other older computers I have found and will post it on several websites when I get it done. Those are areas to explore, but you probably know of most of them already. Some of these sites may be good candidates for such magazines. It is a shame all this cannot be saved by someone or some organization, but you just cannot save everything. Once they are gone, you cannot get them back. All the best! Frank **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 From dmabry at mich.com Wed Jan 23 17:42:26 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:42:26 -0500 Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <4780D6F2.2845.340AC164@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4780D6F2.2845.340AC164@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4797D0E2.8060500@mich.com> Chuck Guzis said the following on 1/6/2008 4:26 PM: > If anyone else needs MS-DOS 3.3 for the Grid PC, I've put it up at > http://www.sydex.com/temp/griddos.zip. Two self-extracting 720K > diskette image files and Grid PCMASTER and PCSLAVE data transfer > programs. > > Note that this version of MS-DOS includes enhancements for the Grid > PC. > > I'll leave it up until Friday. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Chuck, Is there a chance you might put these files online again for me? Just decided to resurrect a Grid 1535 and find I might be missing some files that are specific to that hardware. Much appreciated! Dave From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 23 18:01:27 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:01:27 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <20080123152418.S12641@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <20080123152418.S12641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4797D557.908@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I >> wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native >> DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were >> greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original >> 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? > > On the 8088, an enormous amount of time is spent fetching instructions - > so much so that AAM will usually outperform DIV You lost me, on several levels :-) For one, that was part of my question: since even a specialized "manual" DIV will be 10-20 instructions, that's 40-80 cycles lost right there just fetching opcodes... so would it truly be faster than a regular DIV? Second point I got lost: How would AAM be used instead of DIV? I thought AAM was ASCII Adjust for Multiplication and was used to unpack packed decimals or something. Is AAM good for a trick or two I don't know about? If so, is it faster than DIV? (and if so, why?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 23 18:15:33 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:15:33 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4797D557.908@oldskool.org> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <20080123152418.S12641@shell.lmi.net> <4797D557.908@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4797D8A5.3050901@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Second point I got lost: How would AAM be used instead of DIV? I > thought AAM was ASCII Adjust for Multiplication and was used to unpack > packed decimals or something. Is AAM good for a trick or two I don't > know about? If so, is it faster than DIV? (and if so, why?) Sorry, 15 more minutes of research turned this up: http://www.x86.org/secrets/opcodes/aam.htm -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Jan 23 18:27:08 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:57:08 +1030 Subject: DEC Professional 350 help Message-ID: <24e94d7ecbb8a2ab3e16be4c9e76a8a6@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, I've had a very dead DEC 350 in the shed for a while now and I've just had a look at it, there are a lot of chips on it I can use. But before I give everyone here a heart attack, is there any chance of rescue? When I turn it on the 4 numbered LED's come on immediately, as does the green DC light. Then nothing. Not a blip. I tried removing all unneeded cards and still nothing. Is this thing absolutely dead? Or can it be saved. Also, is there any information for the three LSI-11 chips on it - pinouts etc? I haven't been able to find anything about them anywhere. Perhaps they remained proprietary to DEC. I'd like to see them out of curiosity, and if the 350 itself proves to be completely dead I'll see if I can wire them up on some prototype board and have a play around. One chip is labeled (perhaps it's a FPU, I don't know) DEC 304 E 21-15542-01 6436-40 I 8352 (that looks like a date code) The other two have two dies each (which I guess is the processor itself) IC 1, Left (closest to pin 1): DEC 303E 23-001C7-AA 6319-29 8348 TIWAN (date code again) Right: evidence of a label exists, but it's unreadable IC 2, Left: DEC 303E 23-002C7-AA 6587-03 8425 Right: DEC 303E 23-203C7-AA 6638-10 8422 there is also some print on the ceramic itself IC1: 57000001A1 and a date code IC2: 57000101A1 date code Any information about these chips or the DEC Pro 350 is appreciated! Thanks, Alexis. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 23 18:31:01 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:31:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4797D557.908@oldskool.org> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <20080123152418.S12641@shell.lmi.net> <4797D557.908@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080123162650.R12641@shell.lmi.net> > > On the 8088, an enormous amount of time is spent fetching instructions - > > so much so that AAM will usually outperform DIV On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > You lost me, on several levels :-) For one, that was part of my > question: since even a specialized "manual" DIV will be 10-20 > instructions, that's 40-80 cycles lost right there just fetching > opcodes... so would it truly be faster than a regular DIV? > > Second point I got lost: How would AAM be used instead of DIV? I > thought AAM was ASCII Adjust for Multiplication and was used to unpack > packed decimals or something. Is AAM good for a trick or two I don't > know about? If so, is it faster than DIV? (and if so, why?) AAM is typically the same speed as DIV, but requires fewer bytes, which is a big issue for 8088, and little else. Yes, AAM (which is a two byte instruction) takes the value in AL, divides it by 10, and places the quotient in AH, and the remainder in AL (which is the opposite of the destination registers of DIV) BTW, the second byte of AAM ia OAh. (ten decimal). Guess what happens if you replace that byte with another value! (watch out for prefetch buffer length!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 23 18:17:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:17:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <515982.91903.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 22, 8 09:07:12 am Message-ID: > So you're saying this would indicate there's some > sort of firmware built into the mouse itself? Serial mice (not just RS232 mice, but anything with a bit-serial interface, including PS/2) invaraibly contain a microcontroller. IIRC one of the old PIC application notes included schematics and firmware to make a Microsoft-compatible RS232-interfaced mouse. If the IBM 6150 mouse is the one I think it is, it's an optical mouse contianing a 40-pin 8051 microcontroller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 23 18:21:26 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:21:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <573524.80932.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 22, 8 02:53:42 pm Message-ID: > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, > > there's really nothing at > > all odd about it. > > what examples could you give as a not so conventional > 8088 board? Depends on what I/you mean by 'unconventional'. But considerably less conventional than the IBM 5150 are the Sirius/Victor 9000 (It uses 6522s for I/O and has an 'interesting' video circuit), DEC Rainbow (dual-processor with a Z80 and 8088, and the video chips from a VT100), HP150-II (it has a CPU configured in minimum mode. But you can add an 8087 add-on card. Since the minimum mode doesn't support coprocessors, the add-on card has an 8088 on it in maximum mode along with logic to provide the minimum-mode signals to the rest of the machine. When that card is fitted, the 8088 on the mainboard is disabled). Not a computer, but somewhere I haev a 1200 baud modem that uses an 8088 as a DSP (A very odd choice...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 23 18:27:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:27:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Jan 22, 8 10:10:19 pm Message-ID: > 5) Clock input to 8088 is dead-on 4.77xxxxxx MHz (my scope shows all the > digits, but I don't remember them :-) -- I think the 4.77MHz is close > enough). It is. The CPU is clocking... > > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx (Address/Data) lines seem > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and measuring with a meter > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about +4VDC and some at 0VDC. > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? What are the S lines doing? That's S0...S2 (pins 28, 27, 26 of the CPU in maximum mode, which is how the 8088 is configured in the 5150). According to the data sheet, S2/ = 0, S1/ = 1, S0/ = 1 is the halt mode status. It's certainly wrong for the 8088 AD lines to be stuck. Do they do anything, even briefly, after a reset. IIRQ, the PC bios writes the POST error codes to port 0x60 (not 0x80 as in ATs and later machiens). That's port A of the on-board 8255, and I _think_ that port is configured as an output and the keyboard shift-register connected to it tri-stated so that you can read the error code on those port lines. See what (if anything) they're set to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 23 18:33:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:33:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <4796C5ED.7090403@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 22, 8 10:43:25 pm Message-ID: > > First of all, a giant thank-you to Tony for getting it all right (from > memory, no less). Unfortunately, I still need advice: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > 9) Fit the flaps, taking care to ket the space bar one correctly > > positioned. Fit the base/PCB and slide it over to lock it. Don't bend the > > tab yet. Prese the space bar down so it clicks in place, and check it > > clicks and returns properly. If not, you need to take the baseplate off > > again and have another go. > > While this fixed the spacebar, it has rendered other keys unusable. I > have taken it completely apart and reassembled it three times now and no > matter what I do, the return key is dodgy (doesn't always register, or > registers twice) and the numeric "-" is dead. I have looked at the If you get the right 'feel' and normal keyclick, then you've got it together properly. If a key feels odd, make sure you've got the spring correctly postioned in the keycap's stem. Odd keys not working doesn't sound like an electronic fault (it's a matrix of sensors, after all). So if the flaps are OK, the problem could be : Defective keycap (spring not located properly, can't locate properly) Problems with the keyboard frame (flaps not moving freely) PSB trouble? > On a side note, how does this mechanism work? I understand how the > buckling spring mechanism works, but it looks like a piece of plastic is > hitting two metal pads -- since plastic doesn't conduct electricity, how > is this working at all? Sinve the flaps come down onto soldermasked areas of the PCB anyway, it pretty much can't be conductive. I've always assumed it's a capacitive sensor. When the flap comes doewn it increases the capacitance between PCB pads, this is detected by that IBM sense amplifier chip (the square metal thing) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 23 18:54:34 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:54:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Jan 23, 8 08:07:32 am Message-ID: > > > On Jan 22, 2008, at 11:52 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > >> 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. > > > > It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and > > "Refitting is > > the reverse of removal" ;-) > > The one I like is the stock > > "this was changed in the XXXX model year" > > Oh, very helpful. About as helpful as a MS-DOS 6 bundled "user's guide" The one that drives me mad (and it's in some classic computer manuals too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 23 19:05:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:05:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: <24e94d7ecbb8a2ab3e16be4c9e76a8a6@kaput.homeunix.org> from "Alexis" at Jan 24, 8 10:57:08 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I've had a very dead DEC 350 in the shed for a while now and I've just > had a look at it, there are a lot of chips on it I can use. > > But before I give everyone here a heart attack, is there any chance of > rescue? When I turn it on the 4 numbered LED's come on immediately, as > does the green DC light. Then nothing. Not a blip. IIRC, the LEDs are turned on by a hardware reset, and then changed in state by the processor. So all on implies that the processor isn't running. Maybe it's being held in a reset state due to the power OK line from the PSU or something. > > I tried removing all unneeded cards and still nothing. Is this thing > absolutely dead? Or can it be saved. > > Also, is there any information for the three LSI-11 chips on it - > pinouts etc? I haven't been able to find anything about them anywhere. > Perhaps they remained proprietary to DEC. I'd like to see them out of They are DEC custom, but there should be some data on them. They're the same chips as used in the PDP11/23 CPU board. -tony From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jan 23 19:08:23 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:08:23 -0500 Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4797E507.5090009@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My apologies, but I've always found bit-twiddling fun. It seems that > every platform has some peculiar characteristic that can be exploited > to good advantage. I found this interesting too. Besides, it is no less germane to old computers than details of TTL operation. Some platforms require total submission to peculiarity. I have been playing with a PDP-8 over the last year. It can only be programmed efficiently when you accept it as it is. It just does not do modern programming paradigms. It is entertaining to spend the evening trying to eliminate the last unnecessary cycle from a program... -chuck (a different chuck) From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Jan 23 19:32:01 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:02:01 +1030 Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> On 24/01/2008, at 11:35 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I've had a very dead DEC 350 in the shed for a while now and I've just >> had a look at it, there are a lot of chips on it I can use. >> >> But before I give everyone here a heart attack, is there any chance of >> rescue? When I turn it on the 4 numbered LED's come on immediately, as >> does the green DC light. Then nothing. Not a blip. > > IIRC, the LEDs are turned on by a hardware reset, and then changed in > state by the processor. So all on implies that the processor isn't > running. Maybe it's being held in a reset state due to the power OK > line > from the PSU or something. The reset line for the F-11 (just looked it up, it's not an LSI-11) would be useful to know now. I'll continue looking. But even then I don't have a proper monitor for it! I've got a 21" RGB for my VAXstation 4000-60 but I doubt it'll handle the resolution of the 350. I've got the video and keyboard cable for the 350 however. I won't try it until someone gives me the all clear. Thanks, Alexis. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 19:42:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:42:19 -0800 Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47977C7B.145.23926A8A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:52:23 -0500 > From: "Bill Sudbrink" Give http://www.jameco.com a shot--they have a bewildering thicket of power supplies in stock. The hardest part is getting through their inventory listing. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 23 19:48:27 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:48:27 -0700 Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4797E507.5090009@nktelco.net> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> <4797E507.5090009@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4797EE6B.4060508@jetnet.ab.ca> Charles H Dickman wrote: > Some platforms require total submission to peculiarity. I have been > playing with a PDP-8 over the last year. It can only be programmed > efficiently when you accept it as it is. It just does not do modern > programming paradigms. > > It is entertaining to spend the evening trying to eliminate the last > unnecessary cycle from a program... Well it does make for Software Updates to come out a Tad Slower than most systems. Look at the ADVENTURE update, almost 20 years later. :) > -chuck (a different chuck) PS: Does anybody have the PDP-8 Adventure link,(updated) and the link for a GOOD DOS terminal program. Thanks From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 19:45:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:45:50 -0800 Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47977D4E.26465.2395A211@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:42:26 -0500 > From: Dave Mabry > Is there a chance you might put these files online again for me? Just > decided to resurrect a Grid 1535 and find I might be missing some files > that are specific to that hardware. Shows you what my own memory's like. They're still here: http://www.sydex.com/temp/griddos.zip Okay, I'll take it off *this* Friday (unless I forget). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 19:49:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:49:44 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47977E38.9573.2399354A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:24:27 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > In Aug, 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > > > Speaking of core memory, I used to work for a company that was still > > shipping core-based systems in 1985, when I first joined them right out > > of college. > > The machine was the "BTI 8000", made by BTI Computer > Systems, based in > Sunnyvale, CA. I worked there for only a year, but I > have some > recollection of the machine. > > > I turned up a brochure and technical summary last night, scans up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bti Holy cow--3.5 years to respond to a message! I'm not certain, but I think I may have a boot disk for the 8000, should anyone run into the real thing. Cheers, Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Jan 23 19:50:37 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:50:37 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4797EEED.5050308@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard wrote: | Did you ever use one of those funky video display plus typewriter | terminals shown in the brochure? Not once, in fact I don't recall ever even seeing such a beast. You were doing good in Engineering if you managed to score an Omron terminal. Then again, our 8000 didn't even have skins on it most of the time. The things in those photos are far too pretty for them to have ever let engineers near; I don't think they trusted us to wipe our feet :) - -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkeX7uwACgkQVeEgoxCNq5fmlQCfYlCHQ263HqsZxiHOApPSDmSP p/gAni8hxUBBd4fOW44dvWqSxfsrfwU7 =33Tc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 23 19:54:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:54:23 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47977F4F.3125.239D74CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2008 at 19:16, Brent wrote: > Of course, from a clarity-is-all-important modern software design > perspective, we should all be shot. Naw, not even. "Obscure" is miles of spaghetti code twiddling bits seemingly at random in a word, then finally using a "count the 1 bits" instruction on said word to index into a jump table... > If I were an economist, I would predict that at this rate, in another few > weeks the routine will be down to 1 byte. Good thing for us that you're not an economist--you belong in management. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 23 20:12:59 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:12:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: Behr-Bonz VIC-20 Multicart available Message-ID: <101870.10500.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I know the new cart is modern, but the system it's for is old so I figured this would just about be on topic. Anyway, anyone with a VIC-20 read on... Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk rbernardo at iglou.com wrote: To: acug0447 at yahoogroups.com, auscbm at yahoogroups.com From: rbernardo at iglou.com Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:49:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: {Anything Commodore Users Group} Behr-Bonz VIC-20 Multicart available Long has been the dream of multiple VIC-20 games on one cartridge. Years ago programmer Ward Shrake envisioned and built himself a cart with dozens of games, all selected by dipswitches. Fast forward to 2008. VIC-20 multicart projects go on. For the past months, two different multicart projects have been in development. First out of the gate into the commercial arena is the Behr-Bonz VIC-20 Multicart. With hardware by Eslapion and a game selection menu system by Viande of Denial, the Behr-Bonz VIC-20 Multicart contains 127 games which originally were on separate carts. The following games are on the Behr-Bonz: AE Aggressor Alien Blitz Amok! arachnoid Artillery Duel Astroblitz Atlantis Attack of the Mutant Camels Avenger Bandits Battlezone Black Hole Buck Rogers: Planet of Zoom Capture the Flag Centipede Choplifter Cloudburst Clowns pour Joystick Clowns pour paddle Computer War Congo Bongo Cosmic Cruncher Cosmic Jailbreak Creepy Corridors Crossfire Cyclon Defender DemonAttack Dig Dug Donkey Kong Dragonfire Final Orbit + Bumper Bash Frogger FROGMAN.PRG Galaxian Garden Wars Gorf Gridrunner IFR (Flight Simulator) In the chips Jawbreaker II Jelly Monsters (clone of Pacman) Jungle Hunt Jupiter Lander KEYQUEST Krazy Antics Lazerzone Lode Runner Lunar Leeper Maze Medieval Joust Miner 2049'er Mobile Attack Mole Attack Money Wars Monster Maze Moon Patrol Mosquito Infestation Motocross Racer Mountain King Ms Pacman Mutant Herd Omega Race Outworld Pac-Man (original) Paratrooper Pharaoh's Curse Pinball Pipes Poker Polaris Pole Position Predator Princess and Frog Protector Q-Bert Radar Rat Race Raid on Fort Knox Rally-X Rat Hotel Renaissance (Othello) River Rescue Road Race Robot Panic Robotron 2084 Scott Adams: Adventure Land Scott Adams: Mission Impossible Scott Adams: Pirate's Cove Scott Adams: The Count Scott Adams: Voodoo Castle Sargon II Chess Satellite Patrol Scorpion Sea Wolf Seafox Serpentine Shamus Sir Lancelot Skibbereen Skyblazer Space Ric-O-Shay Spider City SPIDERS OF MARS Spike's Peak Spills and Fills Squish'em Star Battle Star Post Star Trek - Strategic Operations Simulator Submarine commander Super Amok Super Slot Super Smash Terraguard The Sky is Falling Threshold Tooth Invaders Topper Trashman Turmoil Tutankham Type Attack Typo Video Vermin Videomania Visible Solar System You can purchase the Behr-Bonz VIC-20 Multicart for $30 US plus $8 shipping to the US (shipping charge the same up to 10 carts). For postal fees to ship to other countries and other questions about the Behr-Bonz, inquire with eslapion(at)videotron.ca Paypal to eslapion(at)videotron.ca Other ROMs and services are available from Eslapion, too; just ask. I'm getting my Behr-Bonz VIC-20 Multicart right away! Truly, Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group http://videocam.net.au/fcug The Other Group of Amigoids http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ From ericj at speakeasy.org Wed Jan 23 20:25:40 2008 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Alexis wrote: > But even then I don't have a proper monitor for it! I've got a 21" RGB > for my VAXstation 4000-60 but I doubt it'll handle the resolution of > the 350. I've got the video and keyboard cable for the 350 however. I > won't try it until someone gives me the all clear. > Isn't the pro just composite-out? Maybe wire up a DB15 to try an Apple II monitor in place of the usual VR201. I haven't tried this myself but I will if you need confirmation. Regards, -- Eric Josephson From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jan 23 20:27:56 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:27:56 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4797F7AC.4010904@nktelco.net> Tony Duell wrote: > The one that drives me mad (and it's in some classic computer manuals > too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to > your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to > a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want > to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually > do it. I agree. But I have written some technical manuals for machines (not computers, but machine tool) and used a similar phrase. The reason was because there were several subtle options, and I *really* wanted to know what was going on in the field. My assumption is that the customer is close to our service department and so when he needs help, I will be there too... The next revision of the manual might have more information. That might be due to customer and field service feedback. The problem is what happens in 30 years when I am long since retired. Then Tony will curse me because his #7 MINSTER OBS doesn't stamp out the next widget he needs. -chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 23 20:31:20 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:31:20 -0500 Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <200801232131.20511.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 23 January 2008 20:32, Alexis wrote: > On 24/01/2008, at 11:35 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've had a very dead DEC 350 in the shed for a while now and I've > >> just had a look at it, there are a lot of chips on it I can use. > >> > >> But before I give everyone here a heart attack, is there any > >> chance of rescue? When I turn it on the 4 numbered LED's come on > >> immediately, as does the green DC light. Then nothing. Not a blip. > > > > IIRC, the LEDs are turned on by a hardware reset, and then changed > > in state by the processor. So all on implies that the processor > > isn't running. Maybe it's being held in a reset state due to the > > power OK line > > from the PSU or something. > > The reset line for the F-11 (just looked it up, it's not an LSI-11) > would be useful to know now. I'll continue looking. > > But even then I don't have a proper monitor for it! I've got a 21" > RGB for my VAXstation 4000-60 but I doubt it'll handle the resolution > of the 350. I've got the video and keyboard cable for the 350 > however. I won't try it until someone gives me the all clear. If you have any sort of NTSC-rate TV or monitor, with a composite input, you can use it to display the video from the Pro. It may overscan a bit, and text isn't as clear as a VR201, but it still works fairly well. The pinout was covered a few years ago (a reply to my request for that info, actually) here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/attachments/20031124/f2d21027/attachment.ksh Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jan 23 21:47:30 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:47:30 +0000 Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <20080124034730.GC31841@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 12:02:01PM +1030, Alexis wrote: > The reset line for the F-11 (just looked it up, it's not an LSI-11) > would be useful to know now. I'll continue looking. Right... F-11, same as the 11/23 and 11/24 (as someone else has already mentioned). > But even then I don't have a proper monitor for it! I've got a 21" RGB > for my VAXstation 4000-60 but I doubt it'll handle the resolution of > the 350. I've got the video and keyboard cable for the 350 however. I > won't try it until someone gives me the all clear. This comes up every once in a while on the list, but the DA15 that normally goes to either a VR201 (mono) or a VR241 (color) _does_ have a simple RS-170 "composite" NTSC video-out on it (the other pins are color, keyboard, and power lines). With a DA-15-to-RCA cable, you could just hook up a "standard" mono monitor to your Pro350. Dunno if it would work on a modern LCD w/RCA composite-in, but it might. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jan-2008 at 03:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -30.1 F (-34.5 C) Windchill -46.0 F (-43.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.4 kts Grid 91 Barometer 686.3 mb (10391 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 22:49:21 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:49:21 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801232349.21360.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 January 2008 19:21, Tony Duell wrote: > Not a computer, but somewhere I haev a 1200 baud modem that uses an 8088 > as a DSP (A very odd choice...) Maybe not so odd when you consider what development tools used to cost for some of the more uncommon processor chips compared with what was out there for the 8088... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 23 22:53:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:53:38 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801232353.38266.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 January 2008 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Jan 22, 2008, at 11:52 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > >> 12) Bend over the locking tap, refit the case. > > > > > > It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and > > > "Refitting is > > > the reverse of removal" ;-) > > > > The one I like is the stock > > > > "this was changed in the XXXX model year" > > > > Oh, very helpful. About as helpful as a MS-DOS 6 bundled "user's guide" > > The one that drives me mad (and it's in some classic computer manuals > too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to > your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to > a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want > to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually > do it. Oh yeah! The worst one for that was one time I tried to get a manual for something (I can't remember now just what it was) that H-P was selling. I ordered _a service manual_, and what I got was some very thin stack of papers, o f the sourt you'd put into one of those half-size binders that got popular when the peecee came out, which included such useful information as "xxxx is not considered a repairable item, but is swapped out as a unit". Really? They'll do that even when it's out of warranty? And in such a way as I can still make a buck on it? (I was trying to run a hardware-repair business at the time...) I also got "invoiced" for this thing for something absurd, like $50, and sent it back, along with the invoice, basically telling them where they could stick it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 23 23:22:34 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:22:34 -0700 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:49:21 -0500. <200801232349.21360.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: IIRC, the 8086 is used as the brains in the Megatek graphics terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 23 23:24:43 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:24:43 -0600 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4798211B.5020804@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Defective keycap (spring not located properly, can't locate properly) > Problems with the keyboard frame (flaps not moving freely) Definitely not a mechanical problem. > PSB trouble? I guess :-( I took one of the buckling spring mechanisms and "manually" struck keys with it, and also ran it lightly across the board. Most of the keys worked except the ones I am having trouble with. I guess I'm at the end of the line then? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 23:30:46 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:30:46 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> <47978E3F.320A5611@cs.ubc.ca> <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:39:58 -0700 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 > > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> Of course, from a clarity-is-all-important modern software design perspective, >> we should all be shot. >> >> If I were an economist, I would predict that at this rate, in another few weeks >> the routine will be down to 1 byte. > It could real soon ... We have yet to study the *secret Z80* instructions. > BTW was this for disk sector calculations again? What OS? > Hi It is for System88 that was used by Polymorphic. It is 10 hard sectored dsdd disk. I've just figured out the headers. Something that is only practical with a scope that has delayed sweep ( which I had to fix for this project ). The code for the disk controller runs on the controller board and uses a Z80 processor ( the main processor is a 8080 running on the S100 ). There are two windows in the Z80 memory that are double accessed by both the S100 side and the Z80 side. One window at 1000H for buffering while the other is only 16 bytes used for command, parameters and status. The code that I have is for 256 byte sectors on 32 hard sectored 8 inch disk. I'm trying to modify the code to read the 512 byte sectors of the 5.25 disk. I've already modified the PLL, crystal and a oneshot for timing. There is a slight difference in the headers, being that the 8 inch does track, track\, sector, sector\ and the 5.25 does sector, sector\ track, track\. Since the controller runs on its own EPROM, I need to add code to the EPROM to deal with things like dividing by 10. I have some space to add this but I also have to make some other changes to deal with things like the larger sector size. That is why I'm interested in size. I have about 40 bytes left. What is funny is that I beleive that one of the disk I'm trying to read has the source and binary for the complete ROM code for the 5.25. A chicken and egg problem now. The disk are from the Polymorphic archive and have a lot of valuable source, manuals and binaries. As I stated earlier, there is even source for their version of BASIC ( not MS ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 23:49:24 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:49:24 -0800 Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: References: <20080123220808.GE19928@usap.gov> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:28:57 -0500 > From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 04:52:23PM -0500, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> I'm fixing a PowerMac G4 for my Dad's wife. The original PS is dead. >> It was a pretty standard ATX supply, the only difference is that it >> supplies 28VDC at 4 Amps on two extra pins. Rather than spending a >> lot of money on a new supply (more than $250 from the few sources that >> will guarantee the PS) or a not insignificant amount on a used PS that >> could go at any time, I want to put in a new standard ATX supply and >> "tuck in" a small 28VDC PS to drive the two extra pins. The supply >> is always on, so I can power it from a pass through on the ATX supply. >> Does anyone have (or know where to get) a small supply? > > Bill: > > I don't know how solid your current requirement is, but here's one for > 28VDC at 2A: > > http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17186+PS > > Hi Most of the independent supplies have enough adjustment to go from 24 to 28 volts. The only thing to watch out for is an OVP. Even so, many of these are also adjustable. If it has no OVP, it will most likely adjust to 28 without problems. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 00:01:57 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:01:57 -0800 Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47970986.9677.21D1606A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:31:50 -0800 > Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 > >> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:33:15 -0800 >> From: dwight elvey > >> Here goes with using your idea to double use the a register. Except >> If I start it with 2, I can use the carry instead of the sign bit. What >> fun! >> >> Div10: >> ld a,#2 >> ld de,#-640d >> divloop: >> add hl,de >> jr c, div1 >> sbc hl,de >> div1: >> rl a >> jr nc,divloop >> add hl,hl >> ret > > Ah, but you forgot the add hl,hl to shift the dividend after each > iteration. Put it at the top of the loop so it doesn't interfere > with the operation of the "rl a/jr nc" pair and scale your divisor by > an additional power of 2 and you should have it. Hi Chuck See my other post. I realized the missing 'add hl,hl'. As you can see, I moved this to the front of the loop and increased the value of DE to -1280. This allowed the use of the bit in the a register!! > > By now, we've probably bored the hardware guys to tears and DEC > people are tearing out their hair, so we should probably drop the > subject. I think there is still some interest in coding tricks. Even if they are using DEC machines. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 24 00:09:31 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:09:31 -0500 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 24 January 2008 00:30, dwight elvey wrote: > There are two windows in the Z80 memory that are double accessed > by both the S100 side and the Z80 side. One window at 1000H for > buffering while the other is only 16 bytes used for command, parameters > and status. I'd be real interested in more details about how they do that. (Snip) > The disk are from the Polymorphic archive and have a lot of valuable > source, manuals and binaries. As I stated earlier, there is even source > for their version of BASIC ( not MS ). Not a big fan of BASIC, but a non-m$ one would be nice, I suppose. Speaking of which, I remember some Kaypro stuff coming with more than one kind, but I don't recall ever running across any docs for those -- anybody know of any? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 24 00:33:54 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:33:54 +0000 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200801232349.21360.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801232349.21360.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080124063354.GA9330@usap.gov> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 11:49:21PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Maybe not so odd when you consider what development tools used to cost for > some of the more uncommon processor chips compared with what was out there > for the 8088... I have some of the hardware development tools that Software Results used for making COMBOARDs - on the order of $10K and $20K new. We were able to cheap-out on the software by writing our own 68K assembler for the VAX, or that would have been several thousand more $$$ (this is in the same timeframe as the 5150, BTW, 1981-1983 or so). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jan-2008 at 06:29 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.7 F (-34.3 C) Windchill -48.2 F (-44.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.7 kts Grid 64 Barometer 686.2 mb (10395 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 24 00:45:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:45:05 +0000 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080124064505.GC9330@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 01:09:31AM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > (Snip) > > The disk are from the Polymorphic archive and have a lot of valuable > > source, manuals and binaries. As I stated earlier, there is even source > > for their version of BASIC ( not MS ). > > Not a big fan of BASIC, but a non-m$ one would be nice, I suppose. Is there a TinyBASIC for 8088? I know Tom Pittman's is/was available for 6502 and 1802 (and still is, directly from his website, IIRC). Unless you are doing work on a small memory machine (minimally equipped 1802 or 6502 or INS8073), I don't know that TinyBASIC is an improvement over M$ BASIC, but on a machine with 2K-4K, it's really useful. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jan-2008 at 06:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.7 F (-34.3 C) Windchill -47.3 F (-44.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.2 kts Grid 70 Barometer 686.2 mb (10395 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 00:59:56 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:59:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11/24 Message-ID: <670147.34695.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I've read quite a few DEC faq's recently, but couldnt find performance spec's on the PDP 11/24. Is this the same as the original 11/23? How would it compare with a 11/34A? From what I can see the 34A was restricted to 256Kwords of RAM, whereas the 11/24 seems to support up to 1Mwords? Thanks Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 13:12:10 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:12:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: OLD Computer Magazines to go In-Reply-To: <200801230430.m0N4UHpc047704@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <812859.41854.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> somebody should get a hold of these and scan them, even if that meant cutting them up. There was a complete set of PC Tech Journals on eBay recently, but they were in California (of course!). I'm low on cash *snifful* --- Dave Mitton wrote: > I'm trying to get rid of some older computer > magazines to anyone interested > in picking them up (Northwest of Boston) or paying > Media mail rates. > > PC Tech Journal > 1985 thru 1989v4 with a couple missing 1988 > issues and 1984 v1 & v6. > > Dr Dobbs Journal: > 1976 v1 book reissue & Mar, Sept, Oct > and most of years 1977 thru 1985 > > I also have many issues of S-100 > Microsystems/Microsystems/Microsystems Journal > for 1980 thru 1988. > I filled in the missing issues at the CHM and > therefore the list is > now full of holes. > > Exact issue counts available upon request. > > Dave > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 13:23:33 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:23:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: mice - was and still is Re: IBM RT 6150? In-Reply-To: <47977C43.2000100@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <714303.67597.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > AFAIK any of the common PS/2 mice can be use as > > serial, at least. > > That's often not the case. I have several > PS/2-compatible mice from > Logitech and from DEC, Compaq, and SGI machines that > can't be used as > serial. Different voltages, different clocking, > different protocols. > In general, only ones designed specifically for this > and which were > originally supplied with an adapter will do both. A > quick look at > almost any supplier's catalogue will show you lots > that are PS/2 only. ah then I stand corrected. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Thu Jan 24 01:16:01 2008 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:16:01 +0000 Subject: Seagate ST11R ST412 controller + Mitsubishi MR535R In-Reply-To: <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> References: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> Message-ID: <47983B31.6020902@poggs.co.uk> Hi Ethan Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have never tried an MFM drive on a machine newer than about a 386. No > idea if the Pentium-II chipset or its BIOS could be adding to your troubles > or not. I knew I should never have thrown out my really old 286 :-) > So you are saying that this drive wasn't originally used with this > controller? Correct. It was from an RM Nimbus AX/2, long dead now unfortunately. I may get lucky and be able to get some hardware specs from RM, although I don't rate my chances. > If that's the case, then you need to ensure that the drive > is formatted for an ST11R. Even if the drive happens to be rated for MFM > vs RLL (an ST-255 vs ST-238R, say), the controller will _try_ to format > the drive. You just might have problems with completing the format with > few enough errored sectors or with long-term use. The controller doesn't > know anything about the drive that you don't tell it during formatting > (well... if you tell it that you have 8 heads, it *will* notice that there > are only, say, 6... but not the other way around). Gotcha. There is data on the drive already, that's the reason I want to try to read what's on the disk. Even if I pull off a 60Mb binary image and have to do something else to extract the data - that's fine. It's really a one-off operation since I believe there's still a copy of the ancient RM Net 3.1 software on the disk. > I don't have access to the 'net at the moment (for another 12 hours), so I > can't look up the ST11R, but if you find docs, there should be formatting > instructions. From memory, a common way to do it was to jump into DEBUG > and call the formatter in ROM with something like 'G C800:5'. That brings back the memories. Yes, G=C800:5 invokes the low-level format routine on the card. The manual with the ST11R describes this in brief. Peter -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Thu Jan 24 01:21:30 2008 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:21:30 +0000 Subject: Seagate ST11R ST412 controller + Mitsubishi MR535R In-Reply-To: <200801231825.58610.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> <200801231825.58610.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47983C7A.5030506@poggs.co.uk> Hi Roy Roy J. Tellason wrote: [ connecting an RLL encoded drive to an MFM controller ] > Yup. Back in those days there were always folks that tried that, and some > got lucky, while others lost everything on the drive. It's my understanding > that the key point there is the frequency limitation on one of the chips > (read amplifier?) being 5 MHz. vs. 7.5 Mhz, or something like that. That was an awesome feeling of suddenly being sick that I just had... :) Here's hoping that since I've not been able to read anything from the disk, everything's still intact. > Since the card appears to be trying to do *something* I'm wondering if it's > the BIOS on the card doing it, or that on the MB? I guess the card BIOS. I've turned off just about everything I can and don't need on the system BIOS, and the card /is/ doing something - and its behaviour changes if I plug the drive in the port 1 or port 2. Short of capturing the output on the control and data cables, I don't think there's any way to prove this. > One other possibility for getting some meaningful info that occurs to me is to > get something like TomsRtBt, basically a bootable linux on a single floppy, > and boot that -- then you can poke around and get a pretty good picture of > just what the hardware sees. Now you're talking. I'm a Linux hacker of eleven years now. The later kernels (2.6) don't support RLL/MFM controllers, however I'm fairly sure I can compile a 2.0 kernel and give that a go. I'll try that at the weekend and report back! Peter -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 24 01:32:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:32:08 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/24 In-Reply-To: <670147.34695.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <670147.34695.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080124073208.GA31699@usap.gov> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:59:56PM -0800, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I've read quite a few DEC faq's recently, but couldnt > find performance spec's on the PDP 11/24. Is this the > same as the original 11/23? The same execution speed? Yes, I believe so. > How would it compare with a 11/34A? I'm not sure. I've never compared relative PDP-11 performance, but there should be some literature from the period that does. > From what I can see the 34A was restricted to > 256Kwords of RAM Yes.... 18-bit address bus. no mapping. > whereas the 11/24 seems to support up to 1Mwords? It _should_ be 2Mwords, but only if you have a KT-24 (MMU) board installed. Then, I think it's only the same 256Kwords as an 11/34, since there's no Unibus Map. I _think_ that the 11/24 can use the same memory as an 11/44 (256K and 1MB boards), but someone with contant network access should be able to verify that. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jan-2008 at 07:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.7 F (-34.3 C) Windchill -47.1 F (-43.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.1 kts Grid 72 Barometer 686.2 mb (10395 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 24 01:38:22 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:38:22 +0000 Subject: Seagate ST11R ST412 controller + Mitsubishi MR535R In-Reply-To: <47983B31.6020902@poggs.co.uk> References: <4797B0BC.2040601@poggs.co.uk> <20080123214948.GA19928@usap.gov> <47983B31.6020902@poggs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080124073822.GB31699@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 07:16:01AM +0000, Peter Hicks wrote: Hi, Peter, > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >So you are saying that this drive wasn't originally used with this > >controller? > > Correct. It was from an RM Nimbus AX/2, long dead now unfortunately. I > may get lucky and be able to get some hardware specs from RM, although I > don't rate my chances. Ah... then you will need to find if _any_ PC controller is compatible with that. > Gotcha. There is data on the drive already, that's the reason I want to > try to read what's on the disk. Even if I pull off a 60Mb binary image and > have to do something else to extract the data - that's fine. It's really a > one-off operation since I believe there's still a copy of the ancient RM > Net 3.1 software on the disk. Obviously that makes the attempt more important. > That brings back the memories. Yes, G=C800:5 invokes the low-level format > routine on the card. The manual with the ST11R describes this in brief. At this point, you don't want to do that - you'll lose your data. I am not so familiar with the nuances of cross-controller compatibility to even begin to recommend how you could attack the problem. One solution could be this as-yet-un-invented "Catweasel-like hard drive controller" that folks have been discussing on and off here - take a raw image of the disk, then parse out the transitions into address marks, sync marks, tracks, sectors, etc., then turn it into a 60MB mountable disk image. I don't know anything about the RM Nimbus AX/2, but knowing how it low-level formats the drive is likely to be an essential part of the puzzle. One of the big benefits when the PC world switched from analog recording to IDE was that it became much simpler to move drives from machine to machine - all you really had to worry about is track/head/sector geometry, not flux transitions and how they were grouped. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jan-2008 at 07:29 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -29.7 F (-34.3 C) Windchill -47.9 F (-44.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.5 kts Grid 63 Barometer 686.2 mb (10395 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 24 02:07:09 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:07:09 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <200801240724.m0O7OG0C099232@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801240724.m0O7OG0C099232@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4797D6AD.7958.24F2B97A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:48:27 -0700 > From: woodelf > Well it does make for Software Updates to come out a **Tad** Slower > than most systems. Look at the ADVENTURE update, almost 20 years later. > :) I assume that was an intentional pun. Very clever. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 24 03:27:51 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:27:51 +0000 Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: <20080124034730.GC31841@usap.gov> References: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> <20080124034730.GC31841@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200801240927.51476.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Thursday 24 January 2008 03:47:30 Ethan Dicks wrote: > This comes up every once in a while on the list, but the DA15 that normally > goes to either a VR201 (mono) or a VR241 (color) _does_ have a simple > RS-170 "composite" NTSC video-out on it (the other pins are color, > keyboard, and power lines). With a DA-15-to-RCA cable, you could just hook > up a "standard" mono monitor to your Pro350. Dunno if it would work on a > modern LCD w/RCA composite-in, but it might. Since it's got colour outputs and runs at more-or-less normal TV scan rates, you may be able to hook it up to a SCART connector and plug it into a TV. Any VR201-using stuff I had in the past didn't have colour, so I haven't tried it. Gordon From dmabry at mich.com Thu Jan 24 03:50:05 2008 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:50:05 -0500 Subject: Grid MS-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <47977D4E.26465.2395A211@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801240116.m0O1GL0p093974@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47977D4E.26465.2395A211@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47985F4D.7000108@mich.com> Chuck Guzis said the following on 1/23/2008 8:45 PM: > Shows you what my own memory's like. They're still here: > > http://www.sydex.com/temp/griddos.zip > > Okay, I'll take it off *this* Friday (unless I forget). > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I checked before I asked. Don't know how I didn't see them there. Sorry and thank you. Got the file and will work on it my 1535 tonight. Thanks again! Dave From ceby2 at csc.com Thu Jan 24 08:29:26 2008 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:29:26 +0000 Subject: IBM 9221 mainframe at auction In-Reply-To: <200801230752.m0N7qC7R084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: This message reminded me I have a challenge with my 9221. It takes parallel bus and tag cabling. When I bought it, I completely forgot to catalogue to the cables with the package. You guessed it, I have lots of terminal cables by not a single bus cable. So there's a CPU, expansion cage, and 5 drives, but not a thing to connect them together [silent scream]. Does anyone on the UK side of this list actually have any surplus parallel bus and tag cabling, or a source for such things? The only way I've see so far is to have them manufactured for some laughable amount of money. Regards, Colin From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 24 08:57:06 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:57:06 -0500 Subject: IBM 9221 mainframe at auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801240957.06238.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 24 January 2008 09:29, Colin Eby wrote: > This message reminded me I have a challenge with my 9221. It takes > parallel bus and tag cabling. When I bought it, I completely forgot > to catalogue to the cables with the package. You guessed it, I have > lots of terminal cables by not a single bus cable. So there's a CPU, > expansion cage, and 5 drives, but not a thing to connect them > together [silent scream]. Does anyone on the UK side of this list > actually have any surplus parallel bus and tag cabling, or a source > for such things? The only way I've see so far is to have them > manufactured for some laughable amount of money. I'd offer to ship some, but I'm a bit far... I haven't looked closely enough to be sure, but I think that you could just modify the cables pinout by hand (by moving pins around in the connector) to swap them between bus and tag cables. You might want to see if you can do that before bothering to buy some cables. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trag at io.com Thu Jan 24 10:27:54 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:27:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: <200801240718.m0O7HwMM098730@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801240718.m0O7HwMM098730@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <15123.209.163.133.242.1201192074.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > > 22. Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... (Bill Sudbrink) > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:52:23 -0500 > From: "Bill Sudbrink" > I'm fixing a PowerMac G4 for my Dad's wife. The original PS is dead. > It was a pretty standard ATX supply, the only difference is that it > supplies 28VDC at 4 Amps on two extra pins. Rather than spending a > lot of money on a new supply (more than $250 from the few sources that > will guarantee the PS) or a not insignificant amount on a used PS that > could go at any time, I want to put in a new standard ATX supply and > "tuck in" a small 28VDC PS to drive the two extra pins. The supply > is always on, so I can power it from a pass through on the ATX supply. > Does anyone have (or know where to get) a small supply? The 28V serves a couple of (mostly silly) purposes. Primarily it is there to supply 28V through the ADC video port so that a connected Apple display, which uses the (proprietary) ADC connector, can draw all of its power from the host Mac through the video cable at 28V. That is why the amperage rating is so high. I'm rather hazy on what the other purpose of the 28V supply is, but I'm under the impression that the machine will not start up without it. If you are not connecting an ADC based monitor, your power supply can have a much lower capacity. Which brings me to this: I did not design this, but it is a handy little circuit which boosts the 5V trickle to 28V to supply the needs which the Mac power supply has, other than powering an ADC monitor. I would not recommend connecting an ADC monitor to a Mac with this adaptation. The National Semi 2577 on which it is based is not rated to deliver 3A. You may wish to browse NS's website a bit. They have a variety of voltage boost chips available and IIRC the 2586 has a higher power rating. The ADC connector has been a curse to many Mac users. In addition to requiring the off-kilter power supply, most of the non-iMac/non-Mini Macs sold had dual video connectors but one of them was that stinkin' ADC connector. So if the user wanted two monitors he either had to buy an expensive (but fairly nice) Apple display or an expensive adapter. Furthermore, Apple routed the 28V supply to the video card through a pin which is now used on 8X AGP video cards. So one cannot install an 8X AGP card in "28V" Macs without neutralizing the 28V connection in some way. The analog video signals are present on the ADC connector, so it is possible to adapt through to plain old analog VGA, but the unusual form factor of the ADC connector means that as soon as Apple stopped hawking ADC, products, such as adapters, with the ADC connector stopped production. ADC to VGA adapters are only available on the used market now and rarely. There appears to be an infinite supply of Formac brand ADC to DVI adapters available, especially in Europe. However, for some reason the Formac (and most others) adapter does not pass through all of the analog signals. So going ADC-DVI and then DVI-VGA will not work unless one modifies the ADC-DVI adapter. I opened the thing (Formac adapter) up and it contains a small circuit board to which all the incoming analog signals are connected. It boggles me that they did not bother to connect them at the other end of the adapter. Jeff Walther From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:40:10 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:40:10 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <20080124064505.GC9330@usap.gov> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080124064505.GC9330@usap.gov> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:45:05 +0000 > From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 01:09:31AM -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> (Snip) >>> The disk are from the Polymorphic archive and have a lot of valuable >>> source, manuals and binaries. As I stated earlier, there is even source >>> for their version of BASIC ( not MS ). >> >> Not a big fan of BASIC, but a non-m$ one would be nice, I suppose. > > Is there a TinyBASIC for 8088? I know Tom Pittman's is/was available > for 6502 and 1802 (and still is, directly from his website, IIRC). > > Unless you are doing work on a small memory machine (minimally equipped > 1802 or 6502 or INS8073), I don't know that TinyBASIC is an improvement > over M$ BASIC, but on a machine with 2K-4K, it's really useful. > > -ethan Hi Ethan The version of TB that was on my Poly88 has the ability to have extended operations. I used it to add PEEK, POKE and SAVE. With this, one could extend to just about anything. The BASIC on the disk is a full function BASIC. There was a 8K and a 12K version. I was told that they were considered as much better than MS. They were used a lot for business applications. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:51:42 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:51:42 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:09:31 -0500> From: rtellason at verizon.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80> > On Thursday 24 January 2008 00:30, dwight elvey wrote:> > There are two windows in the Z80 memory that are double accessed> > by both the S100 side and the Z80 side. One window at 1000H for> > buffering while the other is only 16 bytes used for command, parameters> > and status.> > I'd be real interested in more details about how they do that. Hi Not much to it. There is some state of the Z80 cycle when one can access memory from someplace else. On the S100 side, it can be synced with wait states. The 8080 is the slower side. I have the schematic but it is not scanned. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 24 11:19:16 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:19:16 -0700 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4797D6AD.7958.24F2B97A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801240724.m0O7OG0C099232@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797D6AD.7958.24F2B97A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4798C894.5040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:48:27 -0700 >> From: woodelf > >> Well it does make for Software Updates to come out a **Tad** Slower >> than most systems. Look at the ADVENTURE update, almost 20 years later. >> :) > > I assume that was an intentional pun. Very clever. > > Cheers, > Chuck And I did find my link after all: http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html But I am still left with the question. Will Adventure run off DECTAPE? > > . From trag at io.com Thu Jan 24 11:36:51 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:36:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need 28VDC 4Amp PS... In-Reply-To: <200801241053.m0OAqjEi001598@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801241053.m0OAqjEi001598@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <27671.209.163.133.242.1201196211.squirrel@webmail.io.com> I saw a little more info on this topic. There are quite a few different Apple displays which use the ADC connector, and as you might imagine, the power demand of each one is different. The 17" Studio Display has a rated power demand of 40 watts, e.g.. Of course the bigger 23" displays and such will draw much more power. So, at 28V, if you could supply 1.5A you'd be okay, even with that display connected. Now, you've not going to get 1.5A at 28V stepping up the trickle supply, but the display isn't on while the computer is off, and once the computer comes on, there should be 30 or so amps available on the 5V supply. You'd just need to be sure to use a voltage booster which can handle the larger amperage and an ATX supply with a hefty 5V current rating. I think some of NS's boosters go as high as 3A. They have a nice table on their website which lists such characteristics. Jeff Walther From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 11:46:10 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:46:10 -0600 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> References: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4798CEE2.9030707@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > In Aug, 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > > > Speaking of core memory, I used to work for a company that was still > > shipping core-based systems in 1985, when I first joined them right out > > of college. > > > > The machine was the "BTI 8000", made by BTI Computer Systems, based in > > Sunnyvale, CA. I worked there for only a year, but I have some > > recollection of the machine. > > > I turned up a brochure and technical summary last night, scans up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bti That is a great find! Thanks for posting it. A few months back I made contact with the the guy who was the lead of the software group at BTI. He said he'd check around to see what docs he had, but he didn't get back to me. I'll ping him again and point to your directory so he gets the idea that there would be a good home for this information. A while back I bought the AFIPS 79 proceedings as there is an article in it where BTI describes some features of their architecture. However, I don't dare scan and post the article as IEEE still actively protects its copyrights. If the CHM could ask the IEEE for permission to post that one article, I'd happily scan it and forward it to you. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jan 24 12:01:21 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:01:21 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: <4798CEE2.9030707@pacbell.net> References: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> <4798CEE2.9030707@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4798D271.4090603@mainecoon.com> Jim Battle wrote: > A few months back I made contact with the the guy who was the lead of > the software group at BTI. Which one? We always seemed to have like four :) Has anyone tried pinging Jimbo to see if he has any stuff hanging about? Pity he never implemented Intercal for the 8000. It could have been a real competitor for Dragon ;) -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 12:17:43 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:17:43 -0600 Subject: GE GP220 system? Message-ID: <4798D647.1010206@gmail.com> Hi all, (I'm slowly getting back up to speed with the list!) Spotted in Seattle last week - a General Electric GP220 controlling a large industrial robot arm. Is anyone familiar with this beast? Is it even a computer as such? It's a big cabinet (maybe 6ft high, 3ft wide), and this one had an Apple ][ perched to one side, giving the impression of a console - but maybe the GP220 is just some sort of interface between the Apple ][ and the hydraulics of the robot arm, and the Apple actually contained all the smarts? However, there was a large hand-held controller attached to the GP220 with a big keypad and LED readouts - unfortunately the photo I grabbed was a bit too fuzzy to make much out on it (but one of the LED seven-seg displays looks to say 'program no.' underneath, implying that the system did have built-in intelligence of some kind). There's also what looked to be a built-in CRT on the front of the cabinet too, but it was covered by a large shroud and wasn't obviously displaying anything when I saw it - it could have been nothing more than a piece of glass over some mechanical readouts or something else deep within the bowels of the cabinet. Power input was a hefty 460VAC 3-phase at 40A according to the data plate. No obvious build date, unfortunately. cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 12:40:40 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:40:40 -0600 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: <4798D271.4090603@mainecoon.com> References: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> <4798CEE2.9030707@pacbell.net> <4798D271.4090603@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <4798DBA8.40308@pacbell.net> Chris Kennedy wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: > >> A few months back I made contact with the the guy who was the lead of >> the software group at BTI. > > Which one? We always seemed to have like four :) Ron Crandall. When I was at BTI (1985-1986) Ron was the only main SW guy. When I talked with Ron, he said Tom Poulter (founder of BTI, and previously the product manager of the HP 2000, I believe) still had two 8000s and docs and media. Ron said he'd contact Tom for me, but I never heard anything back. > Has anyone tried pinging Jimbo to see if he has any stuff hanging about? You are over my head. I'm not sure who Jimbo is. > Pity he never implemented Intercal for the 8000. It could have been a > real competitor for Dragon ;) In 1986, before the big shutdown, there was an optimizing C compiler that had been written in house. I'm sure it never made it out the door, though. I can just imagine: struct { unsigned int bleb:5; unsigned int foo:7; unsigned int bar:11; } thing; ... thing.bar += thing.foo; That probably would have taken two instructions, as the BTI architecture allowed specifying an operand such as a bitfield of a word at a given offset from a base register. Not that such cases are performance critical. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 24 12:48:19 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:48:19 -0800 Subject: Tom Poulter Message-ID: <4798DD73.7080004@bitsavers.org> http://www.drj.com/articles/spr99/poul.htm "Tom Poulter graduated from Stanford University with a BS degree in Physics and has been BTI?s CEO for 30 years. Prior to co-founding BTI Computer Systems, Tom was employed at Hewlett Packard designing a signal conditioning product line & as Systems Product Manager for HP?s bundled computer systems including HP?s first timesharing system." Sounds like a good guy to chase down, both for BTI material and 2000 stuff, esp since HP has opened up the sources, but didn't actually have any of the early software. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jan 24 12:58:05 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:58:05 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 In-Reply-To: <4798DBA8.40308@pacbell.net> References: <4797865B.8010704@bitsavers.org> <4798CEE2.9030707@pacbell.net> <4798D271.4090603@mainecoon.com> <4798DBA8.40308@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4798DFBD.5010309@mainecoon.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Chris Kennedy wrote: >> Which one? We always seemed to have like four :) > > Ron Crandall. When I was at BTI (1985-1986) Ron was the only main SW guy. Long after my tenure. Ron was one of the very first employees; I'm not surprised he was one of the last. > When I talked with Ron, he said Tom Poulter (founder of BTI, and > previously the product manager of the HP 2000, I believe) still had two > 8000s and docs and media. Ron said he'd contact Tom for me, but I never > heard anything back. > >> Has anyone tried pinging Jimbo to see if he has any stuff hanging about? > > You are over my head. I'm not sure who Jimbo is. Jim Lyon, who was responsible for much of the work that made the performance of the operating system on the 8000 at least tolerable, through such heretical concepts as using tables rather than link lists for process control structures. He left BTI in the early 1980s for Tandem. Googling "jimbo intercal" should pull up references to him. > >> Pity he never implemented Intercal for the 8000. It could have been a >> real competitor for Dragon ;) > > In 1986, before the big shutdown, there was an optimizing C compiler > that had been written in house. I'm sure it never made it out the door, > though. I can just imagine: > > struct { > unsigned int bleb:5; > unsigned int foo:7; > unsigned int bar:11; > } thing; > ... > > thing.bar += thing.foo; > > That probably would have taken two instructions, as the BTI architecture > allowed specifying an operand such as a bitfield of a word at a given > offset from a base register. Yep. The infamous zig-zag bit mode. You're right, it should have only taken two instructions to implement that, although they would have been *slow*. > Not that such cases are performance critical. Curiously, it's precisely the multitude of addressing modes that made the 8000 so staggeringly slow. For a machine with a theoretical basic cycle type of 67ns (I say "theoretical" because it could be changed via the SCP and most of the early hardware refused to reliably work at those speeds) it could be quite slow. I recall that increment took more than a microsecond (largely because it was defined as a memory locking instruction that thus had to do a dance with the memory controller to lock out other processors), but there were about half a dozen other ways to increment a value in a single instruction, some of which were much faster. Even today I remain in awe of an ISA that dispensed with shift and rotate operations in favor of implementing those as side-effects of addressing modes! The overall architecture of the machine was really quite elegant; it just sort of suffered in the details. Since much of the team came from the same school in Oregon and worked on the same system, the 8000 suffered a classic case of second system syndrome. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jan 24 12:59:54 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:59:54 -0800 Subject: Tom Poulter In-Reply-To: <4798DD73.7080004@bitsavers.org> References: <4798DD73.7080004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4798E02A.8030107@mainecoon.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Sounds like a good guy to chase down, both for BTI material and 2000 > stuff, esp > since HP has opened up the sources, but didn't actually have any of the > early > software. Also keep in mind that BTI's bread-and-butter wasn't the 8000, but the 5000, which was essentially a clone of the HP 2100 and ran HP software... -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 24 13:07:43 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:07:43 -0800 Subject: BTI 8000 Message-ID: <4798E1FF.3040600@bitsavers.org> > Ron Crandall. > Since much of the team came from > the same school in Oregon and worked on the same system, the 8000 > suffered a classic case of second system syndrome. "OS-3, the Oregon State Open Shop Operating System James W. Meeker, Ronald Crandall, Fred A. Dayton, G. Rose" > Also keep in mind that BTI's bread-and-butter wasn't the 8000, but the > 5000, which was essentially a clone of the HP 2100 and ran HP software... eeek! too much synchronicity going on there. HP 2000, BTI, OS-3 All systems I've been researching for a while. No wonder the names sounded familiar. I have seen the BTI 5000 front panel, looks like a simplified HP1000 one. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 13:31:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:31:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: <8f36ac97fbd610d364271a8efcce09cf@kaput.homeunix.org> from "Alexis" at Jan 24, 8 12:02:01 pm Message-ID: > The reset line for the F-11 (just looked it up, it's not an LSI-11) > would be useful to know now. I'll continue looking. What you need is the field maintenance printset for the PDP11/23 or PDP11/24 CPU board. I don't have either, alas, are they on-line anywhere? > > But even then I don't have a proper monitor for it! I've got a 21" RGB > for my VAXstation 4000-60 but I doubt it'll handle the resolution of > the 350. I've got the video and keyboard cable for the 350 however. I > won't try it until someone gives me the all clear. The video from the Profesional (and indeed from the 'Bow and Decmates) is stnadard RS-170 TV-rate composite video. If you have the colour card fitted, it's sync-on-green RS-170 timings (that is, the green signal is a RS-170 composite signal, the red and blue signals are video only, no syncs). I would have thought you could find something to display that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 13:37:58 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:37:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <4797F7AC.4010904@nktelco.net> from "Charles H Dickman" at Jan 23, 8 09:27:56 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The one that drives me mad (and it's in some classic computer manuals > > too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to > > your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to > > a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want > > to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually > > do it. > I agree. > > But I have written some technical manuals for machines (not computers, > but machine tool) and used a similar phrase. The reason was because > there were several subtle options, and I *really* wanted to know what > was going on in the field. My assumption is that the customer is close > to our service department and so when he needs help, I will be there > too... The next revision of the manual might have more information. That > might be due to customer and field service feedback. The problems come a) Whnen the manufacture/service agent won't tell you how to do that job, no matter how clueful you actually are (For example, changing SMD components, at least the larger-pitch ones, hold no fears for me, it's remarkable how many companies tell me I can't do it!) b) 20 years on. The company is long-gone. Trying to track down a service angineer from that company who remembers how to do the job is impossible. All I have to go on is the manual. From many of the questions here, I don't think that's a rare occurrance, alas. FWIW, I have _never_ received useful information by e-mailing or phoning a service department, technical support number, or anything like that. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not in the manual, I have to work it out for myself. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 13:42:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:42:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <200801232353.38266.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 23, 8 11:53:38 pm Message-ID: > The worst one for that was one time I tried to get a manual for something= > (I=20 > can't remember now just what it was) that H-P was selling. I ordered _a=20 > service manual_, and what I got was some very thin stack of papers, o f = > the=20 > sourt you'd put into one of those half-size binders that got popular when= > the=20 > peecee came out, which included such useful information as "xxxx is not=20 > considered a repairable item, but is swapped out as a unit". Really? =20 > They'll do that even when it's out of warranty? And in such a way as I c= > an=20 > still make a buck on it? (I was trying to run a hardware-repair business= > at=20 > the time...) The HP desktop calculator manuals are like that. I don't know of _one_ that cotnains any schematics of the logic sections. If you're lucky there'll be scheamtics for the power supply, but that's it. Sometimes all you get is the mains transformer wiring or something else like that which I could figure out in 10 seconds. These are the manuals that I normally call 'boardswapper guides' I read them if they're avaialble free (and many are on the web now), but I certainly wouldn't p[ay for them. INHO a service manual (for an electronic device) should _at least_ contain a complete scheamtic diagram. Of course for many of the HP desktops. I've produced my own repair manuals now... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 13:45:16 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:45:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: <4798211B.5020804@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 23, 8 11:24:43 pm Message-ID: > I guess :-( I took one of the buckling spring mechanisms and "manually" > struck keys with it, and also ran it lightly across the board. Most of > the keys worked except the ones I am having trouble with. Have you removed the PCB from the baseplate to look for possible damage to the PSB or to the mylar insulator under it?. Is it possible there are broken traces on the PCB? Unfortunately, the scheamtic in the IBM Techref doesn''t include a diagram of the key matrix. Which means it's not possible to see if the keys you ar ehaving trouble with are in the same row or column (is it just 2 keys?) -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 14:29:26 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:29:26 -0600 Subject: Xerox 1186 LISP machines available in southern Illinois Message-ID: <4798F526.5060800@pacbell.net> I received an email that has sent to a number of other folks, but but apparently there are no takers yet, and Xerox computers aren't up my alley. I asked and she said it would be OK to forward her email to the list. If you are interested, and really can give these machines a caring home, and not just space in your trophy collection, please let me know and I'll forward your contact information to the sender and she can sort out who should get it. (quote) I wondered if you had an interest in the Xerox 1186 produced around 1986. Pictures are attached. I know they are quite uncommon. I have 7 of the computers... one monitor.... and now one keyboard. I just found the keyboard... and an amazing amount of literature, manuals and software (in addition to what is in the one picture). I literally have mountains of manuals and boxes of software... really large floppies and then the smaller ones I remember from my first computer days (the 5 inch ones) !! I have yet to look through it all and determine what is there. All of the Xeroxes I have are pretty much the same except some are missing the C7 rigid 80Mb disk. I took pictures of the back of one with the drive and one without the drive. The product code on the one pictured with the C7 is 62H. Some of them have a panel over the place that contains C6 and C7. I did not remove it and I am not sure I can easily. I believe the person who had them had them all together. There are only two external hard drives that attach to the back - the product code on the bottom of the one is 78D. There is a picture of one of them. I know that they have had one owner and have been in one general area since the beginning. I believe they have been moved twice in their life after the initial delivery. At this time I do not know if any will power up. I believe I found their original power cords.... but I do know that the hard drives have been erased because the data that had been stored on them was of a private research based nature. I will try some soon. They are heavy and really take the space... but I, as a collector of hundreds of things, am accustomed to tripping over my stuff!!! I only have received a couple of bruises from these and their acquisition! I do not collect computers, though. However, as I look at them and all the stuff with them... I and my friends fear that I will become attached to them, and never be able to let them go. However, my intent is to sell them. I have seen so many sites of individuals who have such a love for saving, protecting and restoring these things. My collections are really just to admire not to repair or use. In fact, I am oftened asked "does it work" when people look at my stuff (especially the vintage radios) and my answer is " I do not know." Most of the have never been plugged in at all. I just want them because they are beautiful. If I do let go of these... I want to know they will be safe for eternity. If you are interested in more info... let me know and when I learn more and compile the list of literature... I will send it to you. (end quote) From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 14:32:24 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:32:24 -0600 Subject: Xerox 1186 LISP machines available in southern Illinois In-Reply-To: <4798F526.5060800@pacbell.net> References: <4798F526.5060800@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4798F5D8.9010704@pacbell.net> I forgot -- she sent along some pictures. I've posted them for the time being here: http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/xerox/ From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Thu Jan 24 14:48:02 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:18:02 +1030 Subject: DEC Professional 350 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What you need is the field maintenance printset for the PDP11/23 or > PDP11/24 CPU board. I don't have either, alas, are they on-line > anywhere? Bitsavers.org to the rescue! http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/ > The video from the Profesional (and indeed from the 'Bow and Decmates) > is > stnadard RS-170 TV-rate composite video. If you have the colour card > fitted, it's sync-on-green RS-170 timings (that is, the green signal > is a > RS-170 composite signal, the red and blue signals are video only, no > syncs). I would have thought you could find something to display that. Ethan Dicks has suggested that a composite monitor will do. I've got a Commodore Amiga monitor here with SCART, I'll wire it up to that. It works at 60Hz (I'm in Australia - 50Hz PAL). Thanks for the tip too, Ethan. Looking at the schematics and descriptions for the F-11 CPU, it is *very* tricky. A lot of the timings are handled externally. Still, it would be cool to prototype a F-11 board - but first I'll see if I can get the 350 humming. Thanks! Alexis. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 24 14:59:49 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:59:49 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Xerox 1186 LISP machines in Illinois Message-ID: All, Possibly redundantly to some of you, I'm passing on this email, which I received this morning (presumably due to my presence on the Color Computer or Classic-Comp rescue lists). The systems are in southern Illinois, according to a later exchange with the offerer. Diana included a set of pictures with the first email, which I'll be happy to forward if you are interested, but I strongly suggest you contact her directly. I have no connection to her or previous acquaintance with her. >Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:31:52 -0600 (GMT-06:00) >From: Diana Moutell >Subject: Xerox 1186 LISP machines > > Hello!! > > >I wondered if you had an interest in the Xerox 1186 produced around >1986. Pictures are attached. I know they are quite uncommon. I have >7 of the computers... one monitor.... and now one keyboard. I just >found the keyboard... and an amazing amount of literature, manuals >and software (in addition to what is in the one picture). I >literally have mountains of manuals and boxes of software... really >large floppies and then the smaller ones I remember from my first >computer days (the 5 inch ones) !! I have yet to look through it all >and determine what is there. > >All of the Xeroxes I have are pretty much the same except some are >missing the C7 rigid 80Mb disk. I took pictures of the back of one >with the drive and one without the drive. The product code on the >one pictured with the C7 is 62H. Some of them have a panel over the >place that contains C6 and C7. I did not remove it and I am not sure >I can easily. I believe the person who had them had them all >together. > > >There are only two external hard drives that attach to the back - >the product code on the bottom of the one is 78D. There is a picture >of one of them. I know that they have had one owner and have been in >one general area since the beginning. I believe they have been moved >twice in their life after the initial delivery. > > At this time I do not know if any will power up. I believe I found >their original power cords.... but I do know that the hard drives >have been erased because the data that had been stored on them was >of a private research based nature. I will try some soon. > > They are heavy and really take the space... but I, as a collector >of hundreds of things, am accustomed to tripping over my stuff!!! I >only have received a couple of bruises from these and their >acquisition! I do not collect computers, though. However, as I look >at them and all the stuff with them... I and my friends fear that I >will become attached to them, and never be able to let them go. >However, my intent is to sell them. I have seen so many sites of >individuals who have such a love for saving, protecting and >restoring these things. My collections are really just to admire not >to repair or use. In fact, I am oftened asked "does it work" when >people look at my stuff (especially the vintage radios) and my >answer is " I do not know." Most of the have never been plugged in >at all. I just want them because they are beautiful. > >If I do let go of these... I want to know they will be safe for eternity. > >If you are interested in more info... let me know and when I learn >more and compile the list of literature... I will send it to you. > > >Thanks!! >Diana > > >Diana Fuller-Moutell >dmoutell at earthlink.net >Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. > -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 24 15:27:43 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:27:43 -0600 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479902CF.4000505@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> I guess :-( I took one of the buckling spring mechanisms and "manually" >> struck keys with it, and also ran it lightly across the board. Most of >> the keys worked except the ones I am having trouble with. > > Have you removed the PCB from the baseplate to look for possible damage > to the PSB or to the mylar insulator under it?. Is it possible there are > broken traces on the PCB? I have not removed it yet, although with broken keys I guess there's no reason to hold back now. So I'll take the PCB off of the baseplate and have a look. > Unfortunately, the scheamtic in the IBM Techref doesn''t include a > diagram of the key matrix. Which means it's not possible to see if the > keys you ar ehaving trouble with are in the same row or column (is it > just 2 keys?) Most of the keys having trouble were on the same horizontal line except the enter key, but those may have been somewhat mechanical because repeated use got them 90% functional. I'll try to visually inspect the back of the PCB tonight, and put it together one last time. If nothing is obviously wrong and it still fails, I will throw it in the spare parts bin (and then tentatively start working on the other broken XT keyboard). Even if I find a trace issue, my skill with a soldering iron is worse than that of a moose wearing boxing gloves, so I might ask my brother to come over and help with the soldering (I was always the software guy, and he was always the hardware guy :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 24 18:01:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:01:49 -0500 Subject: OLD Computer Magazines to go In-Reply-To: <812859.41854.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <812859.41854.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801241901.49412.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 January 2008 14:12, Chris M wrote: > somebody should get a hold of these and scan them, > even if that meant cutting them up. There was a > complete set of PC Tech Journals on eBay recently, but > they were in California (of course!). I'm low on cash > *snifful* Somebody *did* reply to this offlist, but hasn't heard back yet... > --- Dave Mitton wrote: > > I'm trying to get rid of some older computer > > magazines to anyone interested > > in picking them up (Northwest of Boston) or paying > > Media mail rates. > > > > PC Tech Journal > > 1985 thru 1989v4 with a couple missing 1988 > > issues and 1984 v1 & v6. > > > > Dr Dobbs Journal: > > 1976 v1 book reissue & Mar, Sept, Oct > > and most of years 1977 thru 1985 > > > > I also have many issues of S-100 > > Microsystems/Microsystems/Microsystems Journal > > for 1980 thru 1988. > > I filled in the missing issues at the CHM and > > therefore the list is > > now full of holes. > > > > Exact issue counts available upon request. > > > > Dave -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 24 19:21:50 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:21:50 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I > wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native > DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were > greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original > 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? In 286 and 386 you could usually beat IDIV when dividing by small constants especially if you knew your dividend was of less than the full range of the possible register values. On a 386 you could play tricks with LEA that could shave off cycles. I seem to barely remember a technique for dividing by 10 in which the first two instructions were of the form LEA EAX,[EAX+EAX*4] to multiply the dividend by 25 (2 cycles each)... I can't remember the tricks that follow that. Overall it was probably "multiply by approximately 25.6 then right shift by 8 bits". I can't for the life of me remember in what bit of code I saw it. I could probably write it from scratch given what I've remembered so far. Eric From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 24 19:29:47 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:29:47 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 53, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47993B8B.9070705@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/01/2008 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, I have _never_ received useful information by e-mailing or phoning > a service department, technical support number, or anything like that. As > far as I'm concerned, if it's not in the manual, I have to work it out > for myself. It is exasperating when "tech support" tell you you're incapable of doing something when you know perfectly well that you could -- if only they'd give you some piece of information. However, they're not all like that, and I've had some exceptionally good experiences with a few. For example, when I needed some technical details for a large Fujitsu winchester, one of their staff said there was no-one left who'd know much about the old drives, but thought there might be a manual somewhere. To my surprise, he not only called me back but offered to lend me the complete technical manual, which was in a large ring binder -- providing I gave some assurances he'd get it back promptly, as it was their only remaining copy! When I needed some information about bootstrap versions on a disk controller for a QBus machine, an engineer (and I use that term advisedly) at Baydel not only spent a while on the phone with me and sent me the information, but sent half a dozen different PROMs and a few other parts to help out. Even DEC let me pay a visit to their labs at Winersh, once, because I had an obscure problem with certain permutations of firmware and hardware on an 11/23 with RQDX1/2 controllers. I actually spent most of the day in their maintenance lab, with access to their documentation, equipment, and staff. And that was the result of a phone call to a technical contact, who passed me on to management, who arranged my visit knowing I was just an enthusiast. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 22:00:55 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:00:55 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu > >> Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I >> wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native >> DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were >> greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original >> 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? > > In 286 and 386 you could usually beat IDIV when dividing by small > constants especially if you knew your dividend was of less than the > full range of the possible register values. > Based on an email I just had from the cpm news group, I thought it might be fun to write some Z80 code to do the 0 to 799 as fast as one could, with no size restriction. Just clocks count. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 22:25:43 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:25:43 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801242025l662be7c9i105e99263bbdd932@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 24, 2008 8:00 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Based on an email I just had from the cpm news group, I thought > it might be fun to write some Z80 code to do the 0 to 799 as fast > as one could, with no size restriction. Just clocks count. > Dwight > No size restriction at all? Can you do any faster than table lookup? But that's probably not in the true spirit of what you had in mind. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 22:29:27 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:29:27 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <479965A7.1000708@pacbell.net> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu >> >>> Every time I see code like this for processors without a native DIV, I >>> wonder if the same code ported to x86 would indeed outperform the native >>> DIV. Would it? I know that on a 286 or higher, where MUL and DIV were >>> greatly optimized to about 12 cycles, no; but what about on the original >>> 808x, where MUL/DIV could take as much as 144 cycles? >> In 286 and 386 you could usually beat IDIV when dividing by small >> constants especially if you knew your dividend was of less than the >> full range of the possible register values. >> > > Based on an email I just had from the cpm news group, I thought > it might be fun to write some Z80 code to do the 0 to 799 as fast > as one could, with no size restriction. Just clocks count. There is a trivial solution: a look up table. add hl,hl ; double it ld de,table ; base addr of table add hl,de ; index ld a,(hl) ; pick up quotient ... table db 0,0 ; 0: quotient, remainder db 0,1 ; 1 db 0,2 db 0,3 etc From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 22:42:34 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:42:34 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <479965A7.1000708@pacbell.net> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <479965A7.1000708@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <479968BA.401@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: ... >> Based on an email I just had from the cpm news group, I thought >> it might be fun to write some Z80 code to do the 0 to 799 as fast >> as one could, with no size restriction. Just clocks count. > > There is a trivial solution: a look up table. > > add hl,hl ; double it > ld de,table ; base addr of table > add hl,de ; index > ld a,(hl) ; pick up quotient > ... > table db 0,0 ; 0: quotient, remainder > db 0,1 ; 1 > db 0,2 > db 0,3 > etc oops, I accidentally deleted the tail end of my program during editing. add inc hl ld h,(hl) after the last instruction above to fetch the remainder From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 24 22:53:00 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:53:00 -0600 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <479968BA.401@pacbell.net> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <479965A7.1000708@pacbell.net> <479968BA.401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <47996B2C.5050202@pacbell.net> After doing the "fastest" possible implementation, I realized that Dwight's "smallest" code is far from the smallest. Behold the trivial solution on the other end of the spectrum: div10: ld de,-10 // divisor xor a // quotient accumulator; clear carry loop: inc a add hl,de jr c,loop sbc hl,de ; undo last subtraction; remainder in L dec a ; we looped one time too many That is 11 bytes. It is slow as dirt, but if the game is smallest wins, then this is doing better than your current 16 byte program. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 23:12:35 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:12:35 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90801242025l662be7c9i105e99263bbdd932@mail.gmail.com> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90801242025l662be7c9i105e99263bbdd932@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > > On Jan 24, 2008 8:00 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Based on an email I just had from the cpm news group, I thought >> it might be fun to write some Z80 code to do the 0 to 799 as fast >> as one could, with no size restriction. Just clocks count. >> Dwight >> > > No size restriction at all? Can you do any faster than table lookup? > But that's probably not in the true spirit of what you had in mind. Hi That would be valid but for now, lets also do some coding. Partial table would be OK. I'll have to admit that the table lookup would beat anything I was thinking of. Still, good thinking. That is why I asked the question. dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 23:28:08 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:28:08 -0800 Subject: Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <47996B2C.5050202@pacbell.net> References: <200801210725.m0L7PUtX050187@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47947419.19820.17B9B936@cclist.sydex.com> <4794E75B.8030207@oldskool.org> <479965A7.1000708@pacbell.net> <479968BA.401@pacbell.net> <47996B2C.5050202@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > From: frustum at pacbell.net > > After doing the "fastest" possible implementation, I realized that > Dwight's "smallest" code is far from the smallest. Behold the trivial > solution on the other end of the spectrum: > > div10: > ld de,-10 // divisor > xor a // quotient accumulator; clear carry > loop: > inc a > add hl,de > jr c,loop > sbc hl,de ; undo last subtraction; remainder in L > dec a ; we looped one time too many > > That is 11 bytes. It is slow as dirt, but if the game is smallest wins, > then this is doing better than your current 16 byte program. Hi Jim I like this. If I'm that pressed for space, I'll use this. It isn't all that bad on average. It is about 1110 clocks for the average. Here is my Idea of the fastest code without table lookup just for fun: ; 0-799 divided by 10 ; hl = dividend ; Returns: ; h = quotient ; a = remainder ld d,h ld e,l add hl,hl add hl,hl add hl,de add hl,hl ld b,h ld c,l add hl,hl add hl,hl add hl,bc add hl,de ld a,h rra ld l,a ld h,#0 ld c,a ld b,h add hl,hl add hl,hl add hl,bc add hl,h, ex de,hl sbc hl,de ld c,#-10 ld h,a ld a,l add a,c jr c,d10f1 sub a,c ret d10f1: inc h ret Worst case clocks is 239 ( by my count ) Now, if someone can comment the code!! Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 13:29:27 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:29:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <017c01c85dee$337abae0$0402a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <274540.68742.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexandre Souza wrote: > > 6) One thing that seems odd is that the ADxx > (Address/Data) lines seem > > "stuck". The scope does not show a waveform, and > measuring with a meter > > shows some lines right at +5VDC, some at about > +4VDC and some at 0VDC. > > Perhaps the processor is indeed HALTed??? > > BIOS perhaps? :oO This is one of the first things I would suspect. Always consider bad memory. 4vdc - tri-stating or *floating*? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 18:31:04 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:31:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200801231813.56365.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <655710.20708.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Tuesday 22 January 2008 17:53, Chris M wrote: > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, > there's really nothing at > > > all odd about it. > > > > what examples could you give as a not so > conventional 8088 board? > > Well, my Tek scope has one in there, if I'm > remembering right... > > (Or was that an 8086? :-) What model is it Roy? There was a Tek analyzer thing which in actuality was a peecee with a handle. IINM model # was TC-2100 or something. Booted plain_jane DOS too I think. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 09:44:49 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <239039.64692.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > HP150-II (it has a CPU configured in minimum mode. > But you can add an > 8087 add-on card. Since the minimum mode doesn't > support coprocessors, > the add-on card has an 8088 on it in maximum mode > along with logic to > provide the minimum-mode signals to the rest of the > machine. When that > card is fitted, the 8088 on the mainboard is > disabled). Hmm just how is it disabled? Someone wanted to add an 8087 to a Peanut, and it made the most sense to plug a board (w/a *new* 8088) into the old 8088 socket. The 8088 can go into *offload mode* when it encounters instructions intended for the 8087, but that's probably not what you're talking about (at best that would be considered intermittent *disabling*). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 10:03:36 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:03:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200801232349.21360.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <770777.51567.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 23 January 2008 19:21, Tony Duell > wrote: > > Not a computer, but somewhere I haev a 1200 baud > modem that uses an 8088 > > as a DSP (A very odd choice...) > > Maybe not so odd when you consider what development > tools used to cost for > some of the more uncommon processor chips compared > with what was out there > for the 8088... Valid point, but I think he was just pointing out that there were a number of better choices for that job. Tony, if you can dig out the make and model, I'd be interested to hear. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Jan 24 20:41:18 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:41:18 -0500 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: <4798C894.5040500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200801240724.m0O7OG0C099232@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797D6AD.7958.24F2B97A@cclist.sydex.com> <4798C894.5040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200801250241.m0P2fIVk019065@mail.itm-inst.com> At 12:19 PM 1/24/2008, woodelf wrote: >And I did find my link after all: >http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html >But I am still left with the question. Will Adventure run off DECTAPE? Possible, but it'll be a challenge. It'll be hard to juggle tapes around to have enough space to make it work, but with multiple drives you might be able to make it work. The files are quite large. (201 blocks for the text file, 139 blocks for the FRTS load file, 50 blocks for the state file.) -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 01:46:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:46:12 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <200801250529.m0P5TZPJ013925@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801250529.m0P5TZPJ013925@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47992344.24605.2A05E5FD@cclist.sydex.com> From: dwight elvey: Well, you've got me confused. HL = dividend (Dnd) > ld d,h > ld e,l ; DE=Dnd > add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*2 > add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*4 > add hl,de ; HL=Dnd*5 > add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*10 > ld b,h > ld c,l ; BC=Dnd*10 > add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*20 > add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*40 > add hl,bc ; HL=Dnd*50 > add hl,de ; HL=Dnd*51 ; At this point, HL=0-41000 > ld a,h ; A=HIGH(Dnd*51) > rra ; A=HIGH(Dnd*51)2 > ld l,a ; L=HIGH(Dnd*51)/2 ; At this point, you've lost me. But a non TLU fall-through 10-bit divide with only one conditional branch at the end would be worth a paper in CALGO, surely. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 25 03:09:10 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:09:10 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <655710.20708.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <655710.20708.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200801250409.11229.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 23 January 2008 19:31, Chris M wrote: > --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > On Tuesday 22 January 2008 17:53, Chris M wrote: > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The 5150 is a _very_ conventional 8088 design, > > > > there's really nothing at all odd about it. > > > > what examples could you give as a not so > > > > conventional 8088 board? > > > > Well, my Tek scope has one in there, if I'm > > remembering right... > > > > (Or was that an 8086? :-) > > What model is it Roy? It's a 2246. > There was a Tek analyzer thing which in actuality was a peecee with a > handle. IINM model # was TC-2100 or something. Booted plain_jane > DOS too I think. I remember one time thinking that it might be a good idea to clean some of the dust out of it, so I opened it up, and was rather surprised to find that chip in there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 07:06:13 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:06:13 +0000 Subject: Link: IBM's anti-MacBook Air goes up for sale on eBay Message-ID: <575131af0801250506l630c06dofd2c3a805f8a7a56@mail.gmail.com> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/25/ibm_5155_up_for_sale/ Quote: [ Forgotten Tech Want to own a piece of portable computing history? Actually, we use the word 'portable' advisedly - we're talking an IBM 5155 here, a 30lb (13.6kg) monster that, as the eBayer offering it up to the highest bidder admits, "is not a MacBook Air". ] Amusing, even affectionate, story and indeed auction description, too. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 09:30:26 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:30:26 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <47992344.24605.2A05E5FD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801250529.m0P5TZPJ013925@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47992344.24605.2A05E5FD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > From: dwight elvey: > > Well, you've got me confused. > > HL = dividend (Dnd) > >> ld d,h >> ld e,l ; DE=Dnd >> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*2 >> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*4 >> add hl,de ; HL=Dnd*5 >> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*10 >> ld b,h >> ld c,l ; BC=Dnd*10 >> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*20 >> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*40 >> add hl,bc ; HL=Dnd*50 >> add hl,de ; HL=Dnd*51 > ; At this point, HL=0-41000 >> ld a,h ; A=HIGH(Dnd*51) >> rra ; A=HIGH(Dnd*51)2 >> ld l,a ; L=HIGH(Dnd*51)/2 > > ; At this point, you've lost me. But a non TLU fall-through 10-bit > divide with only one conditional branch at the end would be worth a > paper in CALGO, surely. Hi Chuck Remeber when, I think it was you, said that we might multiply by a constant that was the fraction of ten base 2. When I looked at it, I found that it overflowed 16 bits for a number like 799. I started wacking bits off the end until I could keep it from overflowing the 16 bits. 51 was the number I found. It wasn't perfect and created an error but it was close. I wrote some code on the side ( in Forth ) to see what the worst case error was. It turns out that the remainder was worst case 13. This means that to correct the result, I only needed to multiply the result of the first calculation by 10 and then subtract that from the original number to find the error. If the error was 10 or above, I needed to increment the result and subrtact 10 from the remainder. If it was less than 10, the result was correct and I just needed to restore the remainder. I'm not sure if I did the math right at the end but it may need a little patching. The idea is sound. I think I need to use 9 instead of 10 for the subtract but I need to check it out. Oh, I forgot. the rra is because the result is 2* to large in the h register after multiplying times 51. One could shorten and only multiply by 5 but you still need to mask off to truncate. The result still needs the rra at the end but it might save a few clocks. It won't work for much over 799 before overflowing. It overflows at 1286. I figure that one might do part of the multiplication and then right shift the result some since were are going to truncate the LSBs anyway. The first result is expected to error some. With the correct value for the multiply, the error will always be on the low side, keeping the error calculation simple. The largest error seems to grow linearly so even with some truncation, one should be able to hit 10K or so with only 1 or2 conditionals, using a large fractional munber to multiply. I don't think I'd ever use this but it was fun to think about. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 09:48:18 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:48:18 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801250529.m0P5TZPJ013925@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47992344.24605.2A05E5FD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:30:26 -0800 > Subject: RE: Z80 Divide by 10 > > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> From: dwight elvey: >> >> Well, you've got me confused. >> >> HL = dividend (Dnd) >> >>> ld d,h >>> ld e,l ; DE=Dnd >>> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*2 >>> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*4 >>> add hl,de ; HL=Dnd*5 >>> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*10 >>> ld b,h >>> ld c,l ; BC=Dnd*10 >>> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*20 >>> add hl,hl ; HL=Dnd*40 >>> add hl,bc ; HL=Dnd*50 >>> add hl,de ; HL=Dnd*51 >> ; At this point, HL=0-41000 >>> ld a,h ; A=HIGH(Dnd*51) >>> rra ; A=HIGH(Dnd*51)2 I forgot to correct this comment. ; A=Dnd*51/512 or about 1/10 Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From djg at pdp8.net Fri Jan 25 11:16:48 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:16:48 -0500 Subject: Ohio Scientific Message-ID: <200801251716.m0PHGmS07430@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> I'm working on getting my Ohio Scientific Challenger II running. The system is a 505 CPU (first rev that doesn't match schematics online), 535 memory 48k (no schematics online I have found), 540B video card with color and dual 8" floppy. This machine was modified with a switch so I can use either the video board or a serial terminal. Its pretty close to the system I first used in high school. I think I have the computer working but would like to run a memory test. Does anyone know of one available that I could load in through the monitor? Or do I need to see how much 6502 I can remember from 25 years ago? The video card generates the first line right after end of vertical blank so all my monitors cut off most of the first line. Is this normal? Next is moving on to the the 8" floppies. After I get them working I want to dump all the disks I have. I found at osiweb a program to dump floppies but it was for 5 1/4". Does anybody know of one that will dump the 8"? Perferably in a format that an emulator can use so I can verify the dumped disks are good. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:35:06 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:35:06 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <47992344.24605.2A05E5FD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801250529.m0P5TZPJ013925@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47992344.24605.2A05E5FD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com ---snip--- > > ; At this point, you've lost me. But a non TLU fall-through 10-bit > divide with only one conditional branch at the end would be worth a > paper in CALGO, surely. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi Chuck I just found a way to do it without any conditional at the end. I'll post it tonight when I get time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 12:52:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:52:37 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2008 at 12:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I figure that one might do part of the multiplication and then > right shift the result some since were are going to truncate the > LSBs anyway. The first result is expected to error some. With > the correct value for the multiply, the error will always be on > the low side, keeping the error calculation simple. The largest > error seems to grow linearly so even with some truncation, > one should be able to hit 10K or so with only 1 or2 conditionals, > using a large fractional munber to multiply. > I don't think I'd ever use this but it was fun to think about. I suspected that this is what you might be doing (that ADD HL,H really had me wondering), but I wonder if your method will hold together for accuracy or be faster than a simple unrolled 10 bit divide. Remember that without the need for an iteration test you can use BC to hold the scaled +10 and use a DAD instead of an SBC, shaving a byte from the loop. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 13:02:04 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:02:04 -0800 Subject: UK assistance requested Message-ID: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> Hi Folks, I just got off the phone with a very nice gentlemen from Amersham who's trying to get an old PC program (on 3.5" media) going on his modern PC system. He's run into one of the copy-protection schemes that worked fine under MS-DOS but not under 2K or XP. I suspect that one of the copy-protection-defeating programs may be just what he needs. Any help I can offer will be at a distance of 5000 miles. I was wondering if anyone on that side of the Atlantic might be willing to help out. Drop me a line if you're interested and I'll put you in touch. Thanks much, Chuck From fu3.org at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 13:16:19 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:16:19 +0100 Subject: UK assistance requested In-Reply-To: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/25, Chuck Guzis : > trying to get an old PC program (on 3.5" media) going on his > modern PC system. He's run into one of the copy-protection schemes > that worked fine under MS-DOS but not under 2K or XP. DOSBox sends its regards. > > Thanks much, > Chuck > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 25 13:47:29 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:47:29 -0500 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> Quick question - can DOSbox handle older PC programs that were meant to run on old AT 8mhz speed machines? I've got a lot of the Atarisoft IBM game titles on 5.25"s and they run insanely fast on a modern PC, I'd like to be able to run them at a properly throttled speed. Curt from at fu3.org wrote: > 2008/1/25, Chuck Guzis : > >> trying to get an old PC program (on 3.5" media) going on his >> modern PC system. He's run into one of the copy-protection schemes >> that worked fine under MS-DOS but not under 2K or XP. >> > > DOSBox sends its regards. > > >> Thanks much, >> Chuck >> >> > > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jan 25 14:11:26 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:11:26 +0100 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? Message-ID: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with 100nS acces time. 2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. What other options do I have ? ( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a bit) Jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 25 14:46:27 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:46:27 -0700 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> References: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <479A4AA3.4020300@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with > 100nS acces time. > 2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. > What other options do I have ? > > ( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a bit) You just can't replace bipolar proms. :( > Jos > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 25 14:48:03 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:48:03 -0600 Subject: UK assistance requested In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080125144641.04a6ac68@mail.threedee.com> At 01:16 PM 1/25/2008, from at fu3.org wrote: >2008/1/25, Chuck Guzis : >> trying to get an old PC program (on 3.5" media) going on his >> modern PC system. He's run into one of the copy-protection schemes >> that worked fine under MS-DOS but not under 2K or XP. > >DOSBox sends its regards. Yes, it's great for reviving old programs under contemporary Windows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox , at http://www.dosbox.com/. - John From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Jan 25 14:37:00 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:37:00 +0000 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> References: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20080125203700.GA29798@usap.gov> On Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 09:11:26PM +0100, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with 100nS > acces time. > 2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. > What other options do I have ? > > ( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a bit) You could make a socket adapter from 28 or 32 pins to 24, then use a more modern, 100ns part, and only program the first 2K. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Jan-2008 at 20:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -30.8 F (-34.9 C) Windchill -54.0 F (-47.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.6 kts Grid 78 Barometer 681.1 mb (10587 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 25 14:47:12 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:47:12 +0000 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1201294032.2241.5.camel@elric> On Fri, 2008-01-25 at 14:47 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Quick question - can DOSbox handle older PC programs that were meant to > run on old AT 8mhz speed machines? I've got a lot of the Atarisoft IBM > game titles on 5.25"s and they run insanely fast on a modern PC, I'd > like to be able to run them at a properly throttled speed. If not, I'm sure you can modify it to do so. Gordon From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 14:53:08 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:53:08 +0100 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> References: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:11:26 +0100 > From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch > To: > Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? > > I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with 100nS acces time. > 2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. > What other options do I have ? > > ( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a bit) > > Jos Can't you replace the EPROM with a fast access RAM with a small battery? I seem to remember that 2kbyte RAM chips, pin compatible were available in the 100 ns range. Not sure 6116's were that fast, but perhaps the larger types 8 kbytes were that fast. I know, they have 4 more pins, but that can be solved with a small kludged socket. With 2 pull-up resistors and 2 DIPswitches you can put 4 experiments in one 8 kbyte chip :-) BTW, weren't 27256's and 27512's in the 100 ns range? - Henk. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 25 15:10:50 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:10:50 -0500 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:11:26 +0100." <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200801252110.m0PLAoih019060@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with 100nS acce >s time. >2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. >What other options do I have ? sram. i'd make a daughter board with sram and a pic, like the prom-ice... >( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a bit) heck, if you pick a big enough part you could just use a fpga with ram inside like a spartan 3. (depending on how much memory and how wide) -brad From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 25 16:40:09 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:40:09 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Quick question - can DOSbox handle older PC programs that were meant to > run on old AT 8mhz speed machines? I've got a lot of the Atarisoft IBM > game titles on 5.25"s and they run insanely fast on a modern PC, I'd > like to be able to run them at a properly throttled speed. Yes. In fact, myself and a few others have done significant work trying to get CGA properly emulated (composite CGA emulation is pretty damn close to the original; some tweaked modes work as well). It can even boot bootable diskette images (as long as copy protection is absent). The problem you may encounter with a fixed-speed game is that it is very hard to dial the number of cycles per second to get a "nice" 4.77MHz speed. DOSBOX is not cycle-exact, and some things (like memory operations) are *much* faster than on the real hardware. The best you can do is to run some sort of looping benchmark (a benchmark that displays results repeated) and then use ctrl-f11 and ctrl-f12 to dial the cycles up and down until you get what you want. I have found a cycle setting of 233 most closely emulates a 4.77MHz machine, but it depends on the game as to how faithful it is to the original. To my knowledge, there are no 100% cycle-exact early PC emulators. Tand-Em is very close, but a hassle to run; MESS is also close, so you might want to check that as well. One thing DOSBOX can do for you is "fix" the older games. Some older games simply run too slowly on a 4.77MHz machine to be enjoyable, like some 3-D titles like Vette! or Starglider 2. For those, you can just speed the machine up a little bit and try running the game again until get you get a comfortable framerate. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 25 16:46:09 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:46:09 -0500 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> Jim, Perhaps you could assist a little bit further, since, you working on the DOSbox emulator. I am looking for some old DOS based Copy Protection bypass tools as the Atari disks are copy protected so as not to be able to read the directories on the disk and/or the disk giving a read error. The disks will only work if they are booted up directly on post and directly go into the games, they can't be f6'd or f8'd to break them, its very odd, so I would like to make copies of the disks so they don't go bad and I lose the games, but more importantly so I can copy the contents to a directory that I can mount through DOSbox and access and run the games, so your assistance on pointing me to a good DOS copy protection disk resource would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Curt Jim Leonard wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Quick question - can DOSbox handle older PC programs that were meant >> to run on old AT 8mhz speed machines? I've got a lot of the >> Atarisoft IBM game titles on 5.25"s and they run insanely fast on a >> modern PC, I'd like to be able to run them at a properly throttled >> speed. > > Yes. In fact, myself and a few others have done significant work > trying to get CGA properly emulated (composite CGA emulation is pretty > damn close to the original; some tweaked modes work as well). It can > even boot bootable diskette images (as long as copy protection is > absent). > > The problem you may encounter with a fixed-speed game is that it is > very hard to dial the number of cycles per second to get a "nice" > 4.77MHz speed. DOSBOX is not cycle-exact, and some things (like > memory operations) are *much* faster than on the real hardware. The > best you can do is to run some sort of looping benchmark (a benchmark > that displays results repeated) and then use ctrl-f11 and ctrl-f12 to > dial the cycles up and down until you get what you want. I have found > a cycle setting of 233 most closely emulates a 4.77MHz machine, but it > depends on the game as to how faithful it is to the original. > > To my knowledge, there are no 100% cycle-exact early PC emulators. > Tand-Em is very close, but a hassle to run; MESS is also close, so you > might want to check that as well. > > One thing DOSBOX can do for you is "fix" the older games. Some older > games simply run too slowly on a 4.77MHz machine to be enjoyable, like > some 3-D titles like Vette! or Starglider 2. For those, you can just > speed the machine up a little bit and try running the game again until > get you get a comfortable framerate. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 25 17:12:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:12:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <239039.64692.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 24, 8 07:44:49 am Message-ID: [HP150-II 8087 upgrade] > Hmm just how is it disabled? Someone wanted to add an According to the Techref.... There's a D-type filp-flop ('74) driving the HOLD input on the mainboard 8088. When you plug the coprocessor card into its special connector, the SET input of that flip-flop is grounded by the corprocessor board, thus forcing the processor into the hold mode (normally used for DMA, of course). There's also a link on the mainoard in series with the ALE signal which you cut when you install the coprocessor board, since that is one singal not tri-stated in hold mode. > 8087 to a Peanut, and it made the most sense to plug a > board (w/a *new* 8088) into the old 8088 socket. If you're going to remove the original 8088, then there's no problem, surely? As I menntioned, in the HP150-II, the cprocesor board plugs into a special connecotor on the mainboard, not one of hte normal expanison slots or anything like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 25 17:18:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:18:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <770777.51567.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 24, 8 08:03:36 am Message-ID: > wrote: > > > Not a computer, but somewhere I haev a 1200 baud > > modem that uses an 8088 > > > as a DSP (A very odd choice...) [...] > Tony, if you can dig out the make and model, I'd be > interested to hear. Better than that, I've found the modem (although not the PSU brick for it yet...) The front panel had a label stuck on it saying CASE 460/22. Under that was the real maker's name, Concord Data Systems. I can't, alas, find any Concord Data Systems model numebr on it. Inside are 2 PCBs. The top one has the RS232 connector (DB25-S, of course) and 4 8-way DIP switches on it. It contains an 8031, an OTP 2732 alongside it, lots of TTL, RS232 buffers, etc. I assume that processor handles the command decoding, etc. The lower PCB contains the line interface trasnformer and relay, lots of Op-amps and analogue bits,, an 8088, 8155, 8259, 8253, a 24 pin EPROM (I don't want to pull the label off it), an ADC0804, etc. I am pretty sure that 8088 is doing some DSP-like task. -tony > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Jan 25 17:46:22 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:46:22 -0800 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <479A4AA3.4020300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <479A426E.7040405@bluewin.ch> <479A4AA3.4020300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <479A74CE.2070001@mindspring.com> woodelf wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with >> 100nS acces time. >> 2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. >> What other options do I have ? >> >> ( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a >> bit) > > You just can't replace bipolar proms. :( >> Jos >> > Look around for Cypress CY7C264 parts in the wide 24p package (they come in both 600mil wide and 300mil skinny DIPs). They offer access times down to 45-55ns and are 8Kx8 devices. Pins 18-21 are a little different versus the 2716 (since it requires more address lines) but all the other pins are identical. Most likely in can just drop in your circuit as is (you just need to program multiple instances of your 2716 code into the device to alias the unused upper address lines). These are UV eraseable devices so they can be easily reprogrammed. Don AK6DN From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 19:53:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:53:37 -0800 Subject: A sign of the times Message-ID: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> I've been using a couple of Panasonic laser printers for years; a KX- P4455 (PS/PCL) and a KX-P4451 (PCL). They're real beasts of machines; I'd guess that they weight somewhere around 60 lbs. each-- heavy enough to cause me to grunt when lifting them. These are the kind of units that requires one to add toner to a compartment periodically. Drum and developer are separate cartridges. The time came to replace the OPC drum in one of these--after pricing the remanufactured ones and checking the deals on eBay, it turned out not to be practical. I found that I can get a factory refurb Brother 5240 from Staples.com for $40 shipped. When it runs out of toner, I can just buy another one at that price (1200 DPI, 23 PPM and most important--a parallel interface). So what to do with the old monsters? They use 68000 CPUs, with differing SIP and DIP memories. Scrappers, I guess. It's sad because both of these have pretty much been the only printer I've used since a Diablo Hitype II. It wouldn't surprise me if each has more than 250,000 copies on it. It's just a shame that such a nicely engineered piece of gear is now worth only its weight in scrap metal. But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 25 20:27:43 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:27:43 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200801252127.43808.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 25 January 2008 20:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been using a couple of Panasonic laser printers for years; a KX- > P4455 (PS/PCL) and a KX-P4451 (PCL). They're real beasts of > machines; I'd guess that they weight somewhere around 60 lbs. each-- > heavy enough to cause me to grunt when lifting them. > > These are the kind of units that requires one to add toner to a > compartment periodically. Drum and developer are separate cartridges. > > The time came to replace the OPC drum in one of these--after pricing > the remanufactured ones and checking the deals on eBay, it turned out > not to be practical. I found that I can get a factory refurb Brother > 5240 from Staples.com for $40 shipped. When it runs out of toner, I > can just buy another one at that price (1200 DPI, 23 PPM and most > important--a parallel interface). I've got a Panasonic KX-P6500 that needs a new "process unit" (drum problems) and have not been able to find them for less than roughly four times that, which is a darn shame as it's a compact little unit... > So what to do with the old monsters? They use 68000 CPUs, with > differing SIP and DIP memories. Scrappers, I guess. It's sad > because both of these have pretty much been the only printer I've > used since a Diablo Hitype II. It wouldn't surprise me if each has > more than 250,000 copies on it. > > It's just a shame that such a nicely engineered piece of gear is now > worth only its weight in scrap metal. I know of folks that go after a lot more than that in there, motors and mechanicals and such, too. I've yet to scrap a laser printer. > But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. Tell me about it. I have a bunch of them available (have a look here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/w4s.html ) -- Okidata, mostly. And I've managed to get interest in _one_ of them so far, sold it to a guy down south... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 25 20:50:39 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:50:39 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Perhaps you could assist a little bit further, since, you working on > the DOSbox emulator. I am looking for some old DOS based Copy > Protection bypass tools as the Atari disks are copy protected so as not > to be able to read the directories on the disk and/or the disk giving a > read error. The disks will only work if they are booted up directly > on post and directly go into the games, they can't be f6'd or f8'd to > break them, its very odd, so I would like to make copies of the disks so > they don't go bad and I lose the games, but more importantly so I can > copy the contents to a directory that I can mount through DOSbox and > access and run the games, so your assistance on pointing me to a good > DOS copy protection disk resource would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Those disks are all booters (ie. they contain a small boot loader and boot themselves -- no DOS needed, and they're not DOS-readable disks). The only way to make backups are: - Central Point Option Board (hardware copying solution) - CopyIIPC or CopyWrite (software-based copying programs) - for some games, Teledisk can copy them (ducking a tomato thrown by Chuck!) - Ask me nicely for a diskette image of the game(s) in question where the copy-protection has been removed Option #4 is probably what you want, and should be made off-list. PS: I own all the Atarisoft PC booters ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 20:56:48 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:56:48 -0800 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 Message-ID: Spotted in the University of Washington's Auction Catalog are 8 Heath Zenith Terminals. I don't think they are Z100 all in ones as I don't see any drives. Lot 40. http://www.washington.edu/admin/surplus/feb2008catalog.html A Sun pallet including at least 3 SGI O2s and 3 large sun servers. And a bunch of older stuff. Lot 44 I am not going to make the sale. It is in Seattle Washington, Feb 2. You can bid online. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:02:07 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:02:07 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Dosbox sounds exciting so I gave it a try. I have a high end graphics program TOPAS that requires EMS. It fails and also, the mem command reports 0 kb free expanded memory. The config file has the default memsize=16 What am I doing wrong? Randy > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:50:39 -0600 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > CC: > Subject: Re: DOSBox... > > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Perhaps you could assist a little bit further, since, you working on > > the DOSbox emulator. I am looking for some old DOS based Copy > > Protection bypass tools as the Atari disks are copy protected so as not > > to be able to read the directories on the disk and/or the disk giving a > > read error. The disks will only work if they are booted up directly > > on post and directly go into the games, they can't be f6'd or f8'd to > > break them, its very odd, so I would like to make copies of the disks so > > they don't go bad and I lose the games, but more importantly so I can > > copy the contents to a directory that I can mount through DOSbox and > > access and run the games, so your assistance on pointing me to a good > > DOS copy protection disk resource would be greatly appreciated, thanks. > > Those disks are all booters (ie. they contain a small boot loader and > boot themselves -- no DOS needed, and they're not DOS-readable disks). > The only way to make backups are: > > - Central Point Option Board (hardware copying solution) > - CopyIIPC or CopyWrite (software-based copying programs) > - for some games, Teledisk can copy them (ducking a tomato thrown by Chuck!) > - Ask me nicely for a diskette image of the game(s) in question where > the copy-protection has been removed > > Option #4 is probably what you want, and should be made off-list. > > PS: I own all the Atarisoft PC booters ;-) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 25 21:16:25 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:16:25 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080125211606.04b970d0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:02 PM 1/25/2008, Randy Dawson wrote: >Dosbox sounds exciting so I gave it a try. I have a high end graphics program TOPAS that requires EMS. It fails and also, the mem command reports 0 kb free expanded memory. Topas had a dongle, no? - John From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:29:09 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:29:09 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Answered my own question. You have to specify the dosbox.conf on the command line. However my TOPAS app still does not work, I can configure it for the following vga video drivers: everex16 orchid paradise also the At&T (Truevision) boards targa vista and number nine none of them work ;( Back to Maya... TOPAS was a really cool program in its day, I was the rep, it sold for 11 grand, and I had no problem selling it. The AT&T graphics labs test routine reports some amazing statistics: Floating point 195% of compaq 20mhz integer 105% of compaq 20mhz > From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:02:07 -0600 > Subject: RE: DOSBox... > > > Dosbox sounds exciting so I gave it a try. I have a high end graphics program TOPAS that requires EMS. It fails and also, the mem command reports 0 kb free expanded memory. > > The config file has the default memsize=16 > > What am I doing wrong? > > Randy > > > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:50:39 -0600 > > From: trixter at oldskool.org > > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > > CC: > > Subject: Re: DOSBox... > > > > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > Perhaps you could assist a little bit further, since, you working on > > > the DOSbox emulator. I am looking for some old DOS based Copy > > > Protection bypass tools as the Atari disks are copy protected so as not > > > to be able to read the directories on the disk and/or the disk giving a > > > read error. The disks will only work if they are booted up directly > > > on post and directly go into the games, they can't be f6'd or f8'd to > > > break them, its very odd, so I would like to make copies of the disks so > > > they don't go bad and I lose the games, but more importantly so I can > > > copy the contents to a directory that I can mount through DOSbox and > > > access and run the games, so your assistance on pointing me to a good > > > DOS copy protection disk resource would be greatly appreciated, thanks. > > > > Those disks are all booters (ie. they contain a small boot loader and > > boot themselves -- no DOS needed, and they're not DOS-readable disks). > > The only way to make backups are: > > > > - Central Point Option Board (hardware copying solution) > > - CopyIIPC or CopyWrite (software-based copying programs) > > - for some games, Teledisk can copy them (ducking a tomato thrown by Chuck!) > > - Ask me nicely for a diskette image of the game(s) in question where > > the copy-protection has been removed > > > > Option #4 is probably what you want, and should be made off-list. > > > > PS: I own all the Atarisoft PC booters ;-) > > -- > > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 21:31:49 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:31:49 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080125211606.04b970d0@mail.threedee.com> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20080125211606.04b970d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: yea, but I fixed that years ago two ways: First reverse engineered the dongle, it was a simple cmos counter and after xxx pulses out the paralel port it kicked one back Later we patched it. > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:16:25 -0600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: RE: DOSBox... > > At 09:02 PM 1/25/2008, Randy Dawson wrote: > >Dosbox sounds exciting so I gave it a try. I have a high end graphics program TOPAS that requires EMS. It fails and also, the mem command reports 0 kb free expanded memory. > > Topas had a dongle, no? > > - John > > _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 25 21:33:02 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:33:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 25, 8 05:53:37 pm" Message-ID: <200801260333.m0Q3X2TP015318@floodgap.com> > But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. Because they're big and heavy and power-hungry, and they're always running out of supplies when you try to do anything useful. I do keep an Apple LaserWriter around, but mostly because anything can talk to it, and HP LaserJet supplies are easy to find. But I collect very few Commodore printers. In fact, about the only Commodore-specific printer I still own is an old Okimate 20 just for the color printing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Smile! God loves you! ------------------------------------------------------ From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jan 25 21:50:10 2008 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:50:10 -0600 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times References: <200801260333.m0Q3X2TP015318@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002601c85fce$8c853160$6401a8c0@ASUS32> I have quite a few, just couldn't throw them out, they came with the systems. But they are a HUGE space taker. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 9:33 PM Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times >> But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. > > Because they're big and heavy and power-hungry, and they're always running > out of supplies when you try to do anything useful. > > I do keep an Apple LaserWriter around, but mostly because anything can > talk to it, and HP LaserJet supplies are easy to find. > > But I collect very few Commodore printers. In fact, about the only > Commodore-specific printer I still own is an old Okimate 20 just for the > color printing. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Smile! God loves > you! ------------------------------------------------------ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1242 - Release Date: > 1/24/2008 8:32 PM > > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 25 22:40:40 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:40:40 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <479AB9C8.3050901@oldskool.org> Randy Dawson wrote: > Answered my own question. You have to specify the dosbox.conf on the command line. > > However my TOPAS app still does not work, I can configure it for the following vga video drivers: > > everex16 > orchid > paradise > > also the At&T (Truevision) boards > > targa > vista > > and number nine DOSBOX was engineered primarily for playing games, so while it definitely supports VGA and all of its various tweaks, it only has Tseng and S3 and I think VESA emulation support at the moment. Can you configure TOPAS for VESA? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 25 22:41:35 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:41:35 -0600 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <200801260333.m0Q3X2TP015318@floodgap.com> References: <200801260333.m0Q3X2TP015318@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <479AB9FF.3090407@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I do keep an Apple LaserWriter around, but mostly because anything can > talk to it, and HP LaserJet supplies are easy to find. I second the part about LaserWriter. The only printers I accept in the house are Postscript because anything can talk to them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 25 22:46:16 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:46:16 -0700 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:50:10 -0600. <002601c85fce$8c853160$6401a8c0@ASUS32> Message-ID: I actually have an interest in printers, but there are the following problems: 1) "interesting" printers are large and power hungry and frankly hard to find in isolation. When they are around, they are usually part of a large mainframe/minicomputer package and you can't get *just* the printer. 2) Printers were commoditized quite some time ago. Remember the Epson FX-80? (And later the RX-80.) A printer was one of the few peripherals that *everyone* who had an Apple ][/IBM PC (or clone) needed. (Paperless office, my ass!) As a result printers were one of the few things that could be commoditized across all brands of computers from micros to mainframes -- although it would probably look silly to have an Epson FX-80 hooked up to a mainframe! 3) People keep CPUs, they even sometimes keep the terminals. They just don't seem to keep the printers. I think it comes back to the commodity aspect -- people think that because printers are commodity, there's no point in keeping that "old printer". The CPUs and terminals are less common, so they keep those in thinking that they have something less common -- and they are right. But the irony is that because noone keeps printers because they're common, vintage printers are not that common at all. What people do keep are the printing terminals: LA-36s abound. ASR-33s still come up regularly on ebay, some of them in very good condition. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 25 22:48:08 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:48:08 -0700 Subject: Ribbons for your teletype model 43 on ebay Message-ID: I purchased two from the guy. They are NOS and the ribbon hasn't dried out. He apparently has a bunch of them. He's selling them for $15 each, but he will combine shipping if you buy more than one. I tried to arrange a discount for buying 5, but he was firm in his pricing. So I bought 2. I figure that if I use them both up, I can try my hand at re-inking the ribbon. At $75 for 5 ribbons, that was more than I paid for the terminal itself :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 25 22:53:03 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:53:03 -0700 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:56:48 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > Spotted in the University of Washington's Auction Catalog are 8 Heath > Zenith Terminals. I don't think they are Z100 all in ones as I don't > see any drives. Lot 40. They look like H-19s to me. If I was local, I'd take that :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 25 22:56:00 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:56:00 -0500 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <200801260333.m0Q3X2TP015318@floodgap.com> References: <200801260333.m0Q3X2TP015318@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <479ABD60.2@atarimuseum.com> Actually I've been looking for an excellent shape Star Gemini 10x myself if anyone has one. I've also wanted to find a good working DecWriter as well. I just secured 5 brand new in the box Atari 825's recently (repackaged Centronics 737's)... Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. >> > > Because they're big and heavy and power-hungry, and they're always running > out of supplies when you try to do anything useful. > > I do keep an Apple LaserWriter around, but mostly because anything can > talk to it, and HP LaserJet supplies are easy to find. > > But I collect very few Commodore printers. In fact, about the only > Commodore-specific printer I still own is an old Okimate 20 just for the > color printing. > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 23:07:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:07:40 -0800 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479A4F9C.3027.2E9B1B81@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:40:09 -0600 > From: Jim Leonard > Yes. In fact, myself and a few others have done significant work trying > to get CGA properly emulated (composite CGA emulation is pretty damn close > to the original; some tweaked modes work as well). It can even boot > bootable diskette images (as long as copy protection is absent). ...and that's just the problem here. The program diskette is copy- protected. What what, I'm not sure. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 23:20:28 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:20:28 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 25 Jan 2008 at 12:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> I figure that one might do part of the multiplication and then >> right shift the result some since were are going to truncate the >> LSBs anyway. The first result is expected to error some. With >> the correct value for the multiply, the error will always be on >> the low side, keeping the error calculation simple. The largest >> error seems to grow linearly so even with some truncation, >> one should be able to hit 10K or so with only 1 or2 conditionals, >> using a large fractional munber to multiply. >> I don't think I'd ever use this but it was fun to think about. > > I suspected that this is what you might be doing (that ADD HL,H > really had me wondering), but I wonder if your method will hold > together for accuracy or be faster than a simple unrolled 10 bit > divide. Remember that without the need for an iteration test you > can use BC to hold the scaled +10 and use a DAD instead of an SBC, > shaving a byte from the loop. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi The ADD HL,H was a mistake. It should have been ADD HL,HL. Here is my loopless and conditional less version: ; divides 0-799 by 10 ; hl is input dividend ; a= qoutient ; h=remainder Div10fast ld d,h lde,l add hl,hl add hl,hl add hl,de add hl,hl ld b,h ld c,l add hl,hl add hl,hl add hl,bc add hl,de ld a,h ; add little more accuracy add a,#16d ; tweak value ld c,a ld b,#0 add hl,bc ld a,h ; quo*2 rra ; quo=a ld l,a ld c,a ld h,b add hl,hl add hl,hl add hl,bc add hl,hl ; quo*10 to calc Remainder ex de,hl sbc hl,de ; l= remainder ret 230 clock cycles and no conditionals Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 23:28:11 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:28:11 -0800 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:56:48 -0800 > From: innfoclassics at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 > > Spotted in the University of Washington's Auction Catalog are 8 Heath > Zenith Terminals. I don't think they are Z100 all in ones as I don't > see any drives. Lot 40. > > http://www.washington.edu/admin/surplus/feb2008catalog.html > > A Sun pallet including at least 3 SGI O2s and 3 large sun servers. And > a bunch of older stuff. Lot 44 > > I am not going to make the sale. It is in Seattle Washington, Feb 2. > You can bid online. > > Pax > Hi Pax These are all H19 or Z19 terminals. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 25 23:49:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:49:06 -0800 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479A5952.17224.2EC1084F@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:11:26 +0100 > From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with 100nS > acces time. 2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. What other > options do I have ? How about a NV SRAM, such as the DS1220? 100 nsec, 24-pin JEDEC pinout. Or an ST M48Z12, same-oh pinout and capacity? Are you trying to replace something like an 82S191? Cheers, Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 00:07:23 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:07:23 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479AB9C8.3050901@oldskool.org> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> <479AB9C8.3050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I think I will hack on this for a while, since we have the source to dosbox. I will make it work... I wonder if I can release it, it was abandoned by AT&T, but the owners were Crystal Graphics. Randy > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:40:40 -0600 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > CC: > Subject: Re: DOSBox... > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Answered my own question. You have to specify the dosbox.conf on the command line. > > > > However my TOPAS app still does not work, I can configure it for the following vga video drivers: > > > > everex16 > > orchid > > paradise > > > > also the At&T (Truevision) boards > > > > targa > > vista > > > > and number nine > > DOSBOX was engineered primarily for playing games, so while it > definitely supports VGA and all of its various tweaks, it only has Tseng > and S3 and I think VESA emulation support at the moment. Can you > configure TOPAS for VESA? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 00:11:48 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:11:48 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A4F9C.3027.2E9B1B81@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479A4F9C.3027.2E9B1B81@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I did get some of the old copy protect diskette stuff to work, Wintek Smartwork, a PCB layout program. we found that the check relied on trying to write to the floppy, at a specific track and sector, where they laser burned off the oxide. If the write failed, they knew it was the original disk. We unwrapped that disk, found the spot, and made or copy on another disk, and carefully scraped off the oxide in the same place under a microscope. It worked! Randy > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:07:40 -0800 > Subject: Re: DOSBox... > > > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:40:09 -0600 > > From: Jim Leonard > > > Yes. In fact, myself and a few others have done significant work trying > > to get CGA properly emulated (composite CGA emulation is pretty damn close > > to the original; some tweaked modes work as well). It can even boot > > bootable diskette images (as long as copy protection is absent). > > ...and that's just the problem here. The program diskette is copy- > protected. What what, I'm not sure. > > Cheers, > Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 00:15:02 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:15:02 -0800 Subject: div by 10 on Z80 In-Reply-To: References: <200801230752.m0N7qC7Q084363@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4797980E.9030907@jetnet.ab.ca> <200801240109.31491.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:51:42 -0800 > Subject: RE: div by 10 on Z80 > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:09:31 -0500 > From: rtellason at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: div by 10 on Z80 >> On Thursday 24 January 2008 00:30, dwight elvey wrote:>> There are two windows in the Z80 memory that are double accessed >> by both the S100 side and the Z80 side. One window at 1000H for >> buffering while the other is only 16 bytes used for command, parameters >> and status. >> I'd be real interested in more details about how they do that. > ---snip--- I went back and looked at the schematics. It uses the BUSREQ lines on the Z80. The circuit is a little too complicated to describe. There is some gating and because the RAMs on the controller ar DRAMs, things are a little more complicated than would be needed for statics. I still believe the fact that the Z80 is suppose to be running faster than the 8080, it should responded with a BUSAK that handshakes to the S100 by the PRDY line. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From ericj at speakeasy.org Sat Jan 26 02:06:13 2008 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:06:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Spotted in the University of Washington's Auction Catalog are 8 Heath > Zenith Terminals. I don't think they are Z100 all in ones as I don't > see any drives. Lot 40. > > http://www.washington.edu/admin/surplus/feb2008catalog.html > They're H19 terminals. The UW had lots of these back in the 80's, but I'm really surprised they would still have any around. They replaced the ones in the ACC lab with NCD X-terms in the early 90's. We used to spend hours on these playing imoria on the ACC's VAXen, so the numeric keypads are probably well broken-in. :) I'd like an H19 for nostalgia's sake, but I sure don't want eight of them. If anyone bids this lot keep me in mind. -- Eric Josephson From pichotjm at free.fr Fri Jan 25 09:15:30 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:15:30 +0100 Subject: I propose to make the journey in 1973... Message-ID: <003901c85f65$1fd07570$2601a8c0@JM3800> I had the opportunity to conduct a series of photographs when I participated in the fair 'Le Bourget' in 1973. You will see about 200 original pictures of displays, keyboards, computer terminals, cameras, radar displays, screen shots of weather, tactical, electric power plant, road traffic, and 8 american or soviet satellites. The visit is here: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Techno73US.html The root address http://pichotjm.free.fr will lead you in early computers... (1954 to 1975) Enjoy! JMP From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 25 16:38:33 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:38:33 -0500 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? Message-ID: <0JV8006E01FIT874@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? > From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:11:26 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I need a programmable device, with the standard 24 pin layout, with 100nS acces time. >2716's are 350ns to 450ns, 2816's are 150nS match. >What other options do I have ? > >( Target : replace some bipolar microcode proms So I can experiment a bit) > > Jos The only way you can get to under 100ns is using larger EEproms or Eproms as their smaller feature size made them faster. You can get 27256s under 100ns (might be cmos but no matter) and larger parts go down to under 50ns. Ofcourse that means a chip adaptor but thats no big deal. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 26 03:20:01 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 03:20:01 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: References: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479A4F9C.3027.2E9B1B81@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <479AFB41.5010106@oldskool.org> Randy Dawson wrote: > I did get some of the old copy protect diskette stuff to work, Wintek Smartwork, a PCB layout program. we found that the check relied on trying to write to the floppy, at a specific track and sector, where they laser burned off the oxide. If the write failed, they knew it was the original disk. That is a very very rare protection -- I'd consider that software collectible just for the protection method involved! There was an "enhanced" Central Point option board with a bushbutton on the back of the bracket; the idea was that, for laser hole "copies", it would scan the source disk and find the hole somehow. Then it would store the location on the board somewhere, and when you had the pushbutton in, that sector would always fail reads or writes. I like your solution though (scraping under a microscope ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 26 03:21:46 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 03:21:46 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> <479AB9C8.3050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <479AFBAA.3010209@oldskool.org> Randy Dawson wrote: > I think I will hack on this for a while, since we have the source to dosbox. > > I will make it work... Well, you'll be adding graphics chipset emulation drivers, which is not trivial. If you do get a new chipset added, please contribute your code to the source maintainer. Unless you are extremely well versed in the AT&T targa/vista boards, I wouldn't even try to add those to DOSBOX :-) I think Paradise is your best bet. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 26 03:25:42 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 03:25:42 -0600 Subject: Proper spacebar repair on XT 83-key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479AFC96.1010601@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> I guess :-( I took one of the buckling spring mechanisms and "manually" >> struck keys with it, and also ran it lightly across the board. Most of >> the keys worked except the ones I am having trouble with. > > Have you removed the PCB from the baseplate to look for possible damage > to the PSB or to the mylar insulator under it?. Is it possible there are > broken traces on the PCB? I don't own a multimeter (don't kill me!) so I couldn't "officially" check for broken traces. But I did separate it from the backing plate and it looked simply perfect, like it wasn't more than a day old; if there was a broken trace, it eluded me. I've given up and relegated it to the spare parts bin with a note that ENTER and KEYPAD MINUS don't work. I was manually bridging pads on the board and those two keys were the only ones that didn't produce any signal at all. I can only conclude that I must have banged it or something taking it apart. However, there is a silver lining: I used the experience of disassembling and reassembling it a bazillion times to correctly repair the spacebar on my OTHER XT keyboard, so I am back in business. So again, thank you very much for the guidance! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 04:05:19 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:05:19 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479AFBAA.3010209@oldskool.org> References: <4799C1AC.5074.2C70AC1F@cclist.sydex.com> <310f50ab0801251116x2b53e09cm544d596f77416363@mail.gmail.com> <479A3CD1.1060505@atarimuseum.com> <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> <479A66B1.8090001@atarimuseum.com> <479A9FFF.2000509@oldskool.org> <479AB9C8.3050901@oldskool.org> <479AFBAA.3010209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I am extremely well versed thank you. I did write for these targa bords for years, its almost 20 years ago. How much time I can apply to the problem is the random factor. Hey its fun! Randy > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 03:21:46 -0600 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > CC: > Subject: Re: DOSBox... > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > I think I will hack on this for a while, since we have the source to dosbox. > > > > I will make it work... > > Well, you'll be adding graphics chipset emulation drivers, which is not > trivial. If you do get a new chipset added, please contribute your code > to the source maintainer. > > Unless you are extremely well versed in the AT&T targa/vista boards, I > wouldn't even try to add those to DOSBOX :-) I think Paradise is your > best bet. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sat Jan 26 04:19:19 2008 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:19:19 +0000 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 26 Jan 2008, at 01:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been using a couple of Panasonic laser printers for years; a KX- > P4455 (PS/PCL) and a KX-P4451 (PCL). ... > > The time came to replace the OPC drum in one of these--after pricing > the remanufactured ones and checking the deals on eBay, it turned out > not to be practical. I found that I can get a factory refurb Brother > 5240 from Staples.com for $40 shipped. When it runs out of toner, I > can just buy another one at that price (1200 DPI, 23 PPM and most > important--a parallel interface). *sigh* I have a similar conundrum here. My father & I have about half-a-dozen Laserjet 4000s which fail to pick the paper properly. The problem can easily be isolated to the rubber "pick up" roller at the front of the tray - measured with a micrometer a good one is a hair's breadth larger in diameter than one that is worn. These are / were fantastic printers - I think the 4-series had a monthly duty-cycle of 65,000 pages, so I assume these are similar in specification. The HP engineers intended for this part to be easily replaceable, and you can easily pick up a roller set on eBay. Unfortunately the price comes to about ?12 per tray - or perhaps ?25 shipped for rubbers for both lower trays plus the manual feed pickup, too - and these printers have a resale value of only ?35. I think it's tragic to be throwing out such decent & solidly- constructed printers in favour of cheap plastic rubbish - in the event a repair is necessary the kind of printers we can get for less money will complain about disassembly with the "pling" of flying broken-plastic sproggets - but it makes little economic sense to do otherwise. I've been meaning the last week to try & find a source of Laserjet rollers where I can purchase 10 or 20 at more sensible rates, but I'm not overflowing with optimism. I'm inclined to think that in a few years time our current consumerist practices of throwing away hardware rather than repairing it will begin once again to look foolish, but in the meantime what's one to do? Stroller. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Jan 26 05:34:51 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:34:51 +0100 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong Message-ID: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. > > Because they're big and heavy and power-hungry, and they're always > running out of supplies when you try to do anything useful. So let's say they're just not for the faint of heart ;) I for one have to plead guilty of printer packratting, having piled up an assortment of impact matrix and laser printers mainly (I'm less fond of inkjets because they always clog up if you don't use them regularly). So let's see what's around here: Pin impact: Commodore MPS-802 (first printer in household) NEC Pinwriter P2200 (printer of our first PC) NEC Pinwriter P6+ NEC Pinwriter CP7 (four-zone ribbon color printer) Epson LQ100 (neat little dot matrix unit, even used sometimes) Epson LQ-570+ Epson LX-400 Epson TM-267IIB (serial receipt printer) Oki Microline 591 Star J120 Inkjet: Canon BJ-10sx Canon BJ-20 Canon BJC-85 Canon BJC4100 HP DeskJet 660C (first color printer of my dad) HP DeskJet 1200C HP DeskJet 1600C(M), 3x (professional inkjets with drier lamp) Epson Stylus COLOR (nonstandard appearance for an inkjet) Lexmark Color Jetprinter 1000 (modern exterior) Lexmark X1160 (USB Scanner/printer combi) Laser: Citizen Overture 106 Apple LaserWriter II NTX Apple LaserWriter Pro 630 Epson EPL-5000 Epson EPL-7100 HP LaserJet Series II Siemens PT10 (rebadged HP LaserJet II) HP LaserJet IIISi HP LaserJet 4L (unusually flat laser) HP LaserJet 4 brother HL-1260e (the only one regularly in use; same engine as LJ4) HP LaserJet 4Si (honkin' big cube) HP LaserJet 5L HP LaserJet 6L HP LaserJet 2100M Kyocera F-1200 Thermal transfer Okidata unit with c/y/m/k transfer strips chained in a ribbon cassette two Mitsubishi still image printers (CP100E, CP250E?) with TTL, VGA, RGB and composite video inputs in addition to parallel ...and probably some more buried somewhere that I don't yet have in my inventory. People keep telling me I have to cut down on such stuff (as well as commodity PCs) but whenever I start to think about which to throw out, I get to think about each one's unique features and what I would say if somebody asked me tomorrow if I had a printer for that-and-that specific location and application. One of my yet unfulfilled dreams is a daisywheel printing terminal (Diablo 1620 or similar). Enough of a confession? So long, Arno -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 26 05:37:42 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:37:42 -0700 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:06:13 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Eric Josephson writes: > They're H19 terminals. The UW had lots of these back in the 80's, but I'm > really surprised they would still have any around. They replaced the ones > in the ACC lab with NCD X-terms in the early 90's. Do they still have the X terms? X terminals are also getting rare in terms of what people are using (although I guess they still work nice with linux boxes). > I'd like an H19 for nostalgia's sake, but I sure don't want eight of them. > If anyone bids this lot keep me in mind. H/Z-19s show up on ebay fairly regularly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 26 05:40:30 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 06:40:30 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <1E2BDF951967414B9C46BA48F7AF97FB01000E7E@exch-be09.exchange.local> Message-ID: <4B3925D54EBF@dunfield.com> >From:"Martin Bishop" >Building on previous posts: >Standalone backup can be installed on the system drive, it gets .. Lots of useful information snipped .. Thanks for the information. I've been digesting it, experimenting and learning. I've successfully backed up the VMS 5.5 to another larger drive, and put the original 100mb drive away for safekeeping. I've got it in my head that what I would really like to do is to make a bootable CD which I can use to restore the system in much the same way as the OpenVMS CD. >From what I've read, creating a bootable CD for a VAX consists of essentially building a bootable file system on a 650m hard drive, reading that drive into a binary image, and writing that image to a CD. To test some of this out, I installed SIMH/VAX on a PC with a CD burner. A number of questions have surfaced ... I was able to rip the single track from the OpenVMS CD with Nero and boot it on SIMH - from there I installed OpenVMS 7.2 onto a virtual RA92 drive. This created a file 1,047,094,272 bytes in size. Looking at this I assumed that SIMH must "format" the entire drive when you first write to it (the file didn't exist until I installed OpenVMS). Dividing /512, I expected to see 2,045,106 bytes with the SHOW DEVICE command, or perhaps a slightly smaller number if some "overhead" is not shown, however I see that it haws 2,479,032 blocks - over 400,000 more than exist in the file. Possible explaination is that SIMH only grows the file as required, and for some reason the OpenVMS install wrote data "up high" on the drive ... Q1: Anyone know for sure - I would like to have an understanding of exactly what is going on? Moving on the CD, I mounted DUA3: (the CD) and SHOW DEV gave me 2479032 blocks. I then created a DUA2 in SIMH with this many blocks pointed at a copy of the CD image file ... tried to mount it and got that it was unreadable. Checked the OpenVMS.ISO file that I got from Nero and it was 681,578,496 bytes in size. /512 gives me 1331208. Creating the virtual DUA2: with this number of blocks worked! - I could mount and read the CD image as a normal drive. Q2: Why the large discrepancy between the actual size of the CD file and the # blocks reported by SHOW DEV Q3: I half expected this never to work, because I assumed the .ISO file from Nero contained "CD formatting" - I could also ask for a .IMG file but it was slightly larger hence I assume "more formatting" Does SIMH recognize ISO images when mounted as normal drives, or is this in fact a binary image? ANALYZE/DISK DUA2: reported that the size of the bitmap was smaller than the physical device (but no other errors except for "no QUOTA file"). Q4: Why? ANALYZE/DISK DUA3: (the actual mounted CDROM) reports "Invalid storage control block, RVN 1". Q5: Why? Reducing the size of the virtual hard drive to 1331200 blocks resulted in DUA2 behaving exactly like DUA3 (mounts OK, read files OK, no longer reports "bitmap too small", does report the same "Invalid storage control block, RVN 1")... Q6: Does all this make sense - can I actually read a drive into a binary file, burn it to a CD and then boot/access it? Or am I "persuing of an undomesticated ornithoid?" >Standalone backup has some limitations, e.g. at ~V5.5 it only >supports a cluster size of 1; i.e. it only supports disks up to >1 Gby. Related question: I have quite a few SCSI drives which are slightly larger than the 1.06g limit ... 1.08 and 1.09 - I've checked, and they do exceed the original SCSI command set addressing by a few thousand blocks. I understand that this is a problem for my 3100 series VAXen ... Is there a way to intentionally initialize a drive with a specific size (in this case slightly smaller than it's actual size). This would also be useful to be able to do when creating a drive to be put on CD. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Sat Jan 26 06:11:20 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:41:20 +1030 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 Message-ID: > Spotted in the University of Washington's Auction Catalog are 8 Heath > Zenith Terminals. I don't think they are Z100 all in ones as I don't > see any drives. Lot 40. Wow, that takes me back. Hacking away on Pascal programs on H-19 terminals in the H-19 editor at two-thirty in the morning in the ACC...the vending machine that dispensed rhino piss they claimed was tea. Oh, those were the days. H-19 was the first screen editor I ever used, though I never did get used to the "colour" command system they introduced in later years. Bah, the old system worked fine, why did they hafta go and change it? -Bobby From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 26 07:13:53 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:13:53 -0300 Subject: A sign of the times References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <01ad01c8601d$b88e49f0$01fea8c0@portajara> > So what to do with the old monsters? They use 68000 CPUs, with > differing SIP and DIP memories. Scrappers, I guess. It's sad > because both of these have pretty much been the only printer I've > used since a Diablo Hitype II. It wouldn't surprise me if each has > more than 250,000 copies on it. Very interesting question. The situation was different for a long time here in Brazil. I have an old Laserjet 4+ which had about a liter or two of coke inside, when I bought it on a scrapyard. I bought it for R$ 100, when the market value was about R$ 500 and a new printer was more than R$ 1200. Disassembled, cleaned, rebuilt the printer and I use it since then. But now a **brand new** hp printer costs around R$ 300 and what to do with the old gal when it breaks? I still use that (I do a lot of printer circuit making with it) but how long it will last? From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jan 26 07:20:07 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:20:07 -0000 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <4B3925D54EBF@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <000e01c8601e$2cf18410$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> From what I've read, creating a bootable CD for a VAX consists of > essentially building a bootable file system on a 650m hard drive, > reading that drive into a binary image, and writing that image to > a CD. That might work. It will give you something bootable but you would normally need to do some VMS tweaking to persuade it that the system disk is not writeable. Might not be necessary beyond V7 or so since I believe that the latest VMS distribution CDs are directly bootable (from [SYS1] iirc). > This created a file 1,047,094,272 bytes in size. Looking at this > I assumed that SIMH must "format" the entire drive when you first > write to it (the file didn't exist until I installed OpenVMS). > drive ... Q1: Anyone know for sure - I would like to have an > understanding of exactly what is going on? I don't know what SIMH does: it might well extend as needed. > Moving on the CD, I mounted DUA3: (the CD) and SHOW DEV gave me > 2479032 blocks. I then created a DUA2 in SIMH with this many > blocks pointed at a copy of the CD image file ... tried to mount > it and got that it was unreadable. > Checked the OpenVMS.ISO file that I got from Nero and it was > 681,578,496 bytes in size. /512 gives me 1331208. Creating the > virtual DUA2: with this number of blocks worked! - I could > mount and read the CD image as a normal drive. > Q2: Why the large discrepancy between the actual size of the > CD file and the # blocks reported by SHOW DEV Now I'm confused. Your CD is 650MiB or so. That works out to about 1331200 blocks (as you calculated). Can you post the actual SHOW DEVICE DUA3:/FULL output? For comparison, here's a logical device on OpenVMS and its backing file: KRAKAR> sh dev /fu lda1 Disk $1$LDA1: (KRAKAR), device type Foreign disk type 1, is online, mounted, software write-locked, file-oriented device, shareable. Error count 0 Operations completed 15 Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W Reference count 1 Default buffer size 512 Total blocks 1166232 Sectors per track 4 Total cylinders 48593 Tracks per cylinder 6 Allocation class 1 Volume label "OVMSVAX062L1" Relative volume number 0 Cluster size 3 Transaction count 1 Free blocks 148032 Maximum files allowed 291250 Extend quantity 5 Mount count 1 Mount status System Cache name "_$1$DKA0:XQPCACHE" Extent cache size 64 Maximum blocks in extent cache 14803 File ID cache size 64 Blocks currently in extent cache 0 Quota cache size 0 Maximum buffers in FCP cache 854 Volume owner UIC [SYSTEM] Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD Volume Status: subject to mount verification, do not unload on dismount, file high-water marking, write-back caching enabled. KRAKAR> ld show _LD_Device: lda1 Connected $1$LDA1: to $1$DKA200:[LD]OVMSVAX062L1.DSK;1 (Write protect) KRAKAR> dir/siz=all $1$DKA200:[LD]OVMSVAX062L1.DSK;1 Directory $1$DKA200:[LD] OVMSVAX062L1.DSK;1 1166232/1166253 Total of 1 file, 1166232/1166253 blocks. > Q3: I half expected this never to work, because I assumed the > .ISO file from Nero contained "CD formatting" - I could also > ask for a .IMG file but it was slightly larger hence I assume > "more formatting" Does SIMH recognize ISO images when mounted > as normal drives, or is this in fact a binary image? I believe that Nero by default creates a block-for-block copy, which is exactly what you want. > > ANALYZE/DISK DUA2: reported that the size of the bitmap was > smaller than the physical device (but no other errors except > for "no QUOTA file"). Q4: Why? No Quota file is because you have no quota file. You don't need one BTW. The other message is OK. It's because ANA/DISK is assuming that you have a physical device with real numbers of cylinders, sectors, tracks etc. that match the size of the disk. Here's what the OpenVMS Wizard says: These particular CHKSCB geometry-related messages reported by ANALYZE/DISK_STRUCTURE are entirely benign, are commonly and widely seen on existing recorded optical media used with OpenVMS. These messages can safely be ignored. An example of the messages typical of an analysis of a recorded volume follows: $ analyze/disk dqa1: Analyze/Disk_Structure for _VMS$DQA1: started on dd-mmm-yyyy hh:mm:ss.cc %ANALDISK-W-CHKSCB, invalid storage control block, RVN 1 %ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA, error opening QUOTA.SYS -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file $ > ANALYZE/DISK DUA3: (the actual mounted CDROM) reports "Invalid > storage control block, RVN 1". Q5: Why? As above > Reducing the size of the virtual hard drive to 1331200 blocks > resulted in DUA2 behaving exactly like DUA3 (mounts OK, read > files OK, no longer reports "bitmap too small", does report the > same "Invalid storage control block, RVN 1")... I'm assuming that you're image and your physical disk size don't match. I can only think that somewhere along the line you've misread the output of SHOW DEVICE. > Q6: Does all this make sense - can I actually read a drive into > a binary file, burn it to a CD and then boot/access it? Or am I > "persuing of an undomesticated ornithoid?" You can do this. Given a large enough spare disk I would go the LD device route. Create a logical disk of an appropriate size on your spare disk, lets callit LDA1:. INIT LDA1:, do an image backup of your source disk onto LDA1:, dismount LDA1: and disconnect from LDDRIVER. FTP to PC. Burn to CD. That should get you around the bitmap size issues. If your intermediate LDA1 file is of the right size (a multiple of 8 blocks?) then it probably fixes the SCB warnings too, although something in the back of my mind tells me that there is slightly more to it than that (plus it does not matter). > > I have quite a few SCSI drives which are slightly larger than the > 1.06g limit ... 1.08 and 1.09 - I've checked, and they do exceed > the original SCSI command set addressing by a few thousand blocks. > I understand that this is a problem for my 3100 series VAXen ... > Is there a way to intentionally initialize a drive with a specific > size (in this case slightly smaller than it's actual size). This limitation only comes into play if you try to boot from the disk in question. The limitation applies only to the console drivers in EPROM used to boot the system (and also to take write a crashdump). Once OpenVMS is running it will quite happily access data disks of up to some number of terabytes ... I've used a 9GB drive on a VAXstation 3100 M76. If you really do mean you want to boot from a disk that exceeds the 1.073GB limit and you really do have a system that is limited (any VAXstation 3100 and the early MicroVAX 3100 M10/20 and that's all iirc), then there are some tricks. > This would also be useful to be able to do when creating a drive > to be put on CD. I'm not sure how you expect to fit a 1GB drive onto a 650MB CD. Do you mean you just want to install a new system disk temporarily? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1244 - Release Date: 25/01/2008 19:44 From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 26 08:40:34 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:40:34 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <000e01c8601e$2cf18410$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <4B3925D54EBF@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4BDDC832124F@dunfield.com> Thanks Antonio, good info and more Q's > >> From what I've read, creating a bootable CD for a VAX consists of > > essentially building a bootable file system on a 650m hard drive, > > reading that drive into a binary image, and writing that image to > > a CD. > > That might work. It will give you something bootable but you > would normally need to do some VMS tweaking to persuade > it that the system disk is not writeable. Might not be > necessary beyond V7 or so since I believe that the latest > VMS distribution CDs are directly bootable (from [SYS1] iirc). I left out an important point - I'm really only interested in booting stand-alone backup off of the CD. I successfully did this under the simulator since my last message. I couldn't figure out how to make stand-alone backup write to a saveset on a disk drive - It kept telling me that I had to have only a device name in the destination. I had hoped that I could just install stand-alone backup on a blank disk and then use it to create it's own saveset from the system disk... So I did: Mounted a scratch disk on DUA1 Stand-alone backuped/image DUA0 (the boot disk to DUA1) - Now DUA1 is a copy of the system disk. Rebooted to DUA0, then used live BACKUP to backup/image DUA1 to a file called SYSTEM.SAV on DUA0 (There's lots of space) INIT/index=beginning DUA1: [I used /index=beginning to put the storage allocation information at the beginning of the CD so it wouldn't have to keep seeking out to the middle - Other than that, I assume it would work without it.] Then I used @stabackit to install stand-alone backup to DUA1:, then I copied SYSTEM.SAV to DUA1:[000000]SYSTEM.SAV Shutdown and attached the file formerly on DUA1 to SIMH as a CDROM, then booted from the CD - stand-along backup came up and I was able to restore SYSTEM.SAV to another virtual disk, then boot that disk and it all worked. Next step is to get an image of my VMS 5.5 drive (probably DD under netbsd and then FTP it over) and see if I can do it again - once that works, I'll try and burn a physical CD. > > This created a file 1,047,094,272 bytes in size. Looking at this > > I assumed that SIMH must "format" the entire drive when you first > > write to it (the file didn't exist until I installed OpenVMS). > > > drive ... Q1: Anyone know for sure - I would like to have an > > understanding of exactly what is going on? > > I don't know what SIMH does: it might well extend as needed. Do you know a reason why VMS would write that "high" on the drive during a simple restore (minimal system) and subsequent boot. I know it would put dir/maps in the middle, but this is a fair way above the middle. > > Checked the OpenVMS.ISO file that I got from Nero and it was > > 681,578,496 bytes in size. /512 gives me 1331208. Creating the > > virtual DUA2: with this number of blocks worked! - I could > > mount and read the CD image as a normal drive. > > > Q2: Why the large discrepancy between the actual size of the > > CD file and the # blocks reported by SHOW DEV > > Now I'm confused. Your CD is 650MiB or so. That works out > to about 1331200 blocks (as you calculated). Can you post > the actual SHOW DEVICE DUA3:/FULL output? I don't know if I can capture the output of SIMH, but I will try to do this on a real vax later today and capture the output. I didn't do /FULL, this was just the #blocks listed in the short listing. > > ANALYZE/DISK DUA2: reported that the size of the bitmap was > > smaller than the physical device (but no other errors except > > for "no QUOTA file"). Q4: Why? > > No Quota file is because you have no quota file. You don't need one BTW. I guessed as much. > > Reducing the size of the virtual hard drive to 1331200 blocks > > resulted in DUA2 behaving exactly like DUA3 (mounts OK, read > > files OK, no longer reports "bitmap too small", does report the > > same "Invalid storage control block, RVN 1")... > > I'm assuming that you're image and your physical disk size don't > match. I can only think that somewhere along the line you've > misread the output of SHOW DEVICE. No SHOW DEV involved - the 1331208 number came by dividing the actual size of the CD image file by 512. - Just looking to understand why it behaves differently - Perhaps SIMH adjusts the blocksize somehow, so this is not the actual size of the disk created. > You can do this. Given a large enough spare disk I would go the > LD device route. Create a logical disk of an appropriate size > on your spare disk, lets callit LDA1:. INIT LDA1:, do an image > backup of your source disk onto LDA1:, dismount LDA1: and disconnect > from LDDRIVER. FTP to PC. Burn to CD. Wouldn't this result in trying to boot a full image on the CD (although I could specifically boot stabackup assuming it's on the image). My goal was to put stabackup and a save set on the CD. > > I have quite a few SCSI drives which are slightly larger than the > > 1.06g limit ... 1.08 and 1.09 - I've checked, and they do exceed > > the original SCSI command set addressing by a few thousand blocks. > > I understand that this is a problem for my 3100 series VAXen ... > > Is there a way to intentionally initialize a drive with a specific > > size (in this case slightly smaller than it's actual size). > > This limitation only comes into play if you try to boot from the > disk in question. The limitation applies only to the console drivers > in EPROM used to boot the system (and also to take write a crashdump). > Once OpenVMS is running it will quite happily access data disks of > up to some number of terabytes ... I've used a 9GB drive on a > VAXstation 3100 M76. > > If you really do mean you want to boot from a disk that exceeds the > 1.073GB limit and you really do have a system that is limited > (any VAXstation 3100 and the early MicroVAX 3100 M10/20 and that's > all iirc), then there are some tricks. Yes, I really do mean it - I have two 3100 series machines which suffer from the limitation, and I want to put 1G drives in them - but all of my 1G drives are "just a little too big". Please elaborate on the "tricks". > > This would also be useful to be able to do when creating a drive > > to be put on CD. > > I'm not sure how you expect to fit a 1GB drive onto a 650MB CD. > Do you mean you just want to install a new system disk > temporarily? What I mean is that I want to create a 650M image to burn to the CD, however I don't have any 650M drives - I've got LOTS of 1G drives, so if I could mount them smaller (650M or less) I could create a filesystem on them that will fit on a CD. But I don't think it really matters - What I will probably do is transfer an image of the drive to SIMH where I can then perform a backup of it to a virtual disk which can be any size I want. Q: Is stand-alone backup from OpenVMS 7.x compatible with older version filesystems? - If I backup my VMS 5.5 disk using stabackup from 7.2, and restore it with same, will I get a workable VMS 5.5 system disk again? I haven't tried booting 5.5 under SIMH yet - If for some reason it doesn't work, then I may need to do this with the OpenVMS utilities. Thanks again, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From fu3.org at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 09:01:37 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:01:37 +0100 Subject: I propose to make the journey in 1973... In-Reply-To: <003901c85f65$1fd07570$2601a8c0@JM3800> References: <003901c85f65$1fd07570$2601a8c0@JM3800> Message-ID: <310f50ab0801260701q586faf5ahc0e3cf1e749146f@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/25, pichotjm : > I had the opportunity to conduct a series of photographs when I participated > in the fair 'Le Bourget' in 1973. > You will see about 200 original pictures of displays, keyboards, computer > terminals, cameras, radar displays, screen shots of weather, tactical, > electric power plant, road traffic, and 8 american or soviet satellites. > The visit is here: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Techno73US.html > Holy shit; this is extraordinary! :) - Thanks for sharing!! > The root address http://pichotjm.free.fr will lead you in early computers... > (1954 to 1975) > > Enjoy! > > JMP > From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 26 09:05:31 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:05:31 -0600 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <479B4C3B.9090003@pacbell.net> Stroller wrote: ... > I have a similar conundrum here. I fail to see the conundrum here. > My father & I have about half-a-dozen Laserjet 4000s which fail to pick > the paper properly. The problem can easily be isolated to the rubber > "pick up" roller at the front of the tray - measured with a micrometer a > good one is a hair's breadth larger in diameter than one that is worn. > > These are / were fantastic printers - I think the 4-series had a monthly > duty-cycle of 65,000 pages, so I assume these are similar in > specification. The HP engineers intended for this part to be easily > replaceable, and you can easily pick up a roller set on eBay. Sounds great so far -- you have a supply of fantastic printers that have a minor problem. You aren't looking to sell them it sounds like ... you simply wish they'd work better so you could use them. OK so far. > Unfortunately the price comes to about ?12 per tray - or perhaps ?25 > shipped for rubbers for both lower trays plus the manual feed pickup, > too - and these printers have a resale value of only ?35. You lose me here. Who cares about the resale value. What matters is what is the value to you. If you can get a fantastic laser printer back in operating condition for ?25 with little effort, it sounds like a no brainer to me. > I think it's tragic to be throwing out such decent & solidly-constructed > printers in favour of cheap plastic rubbish - in the event a repair is > necessary the kind of printers we can get for less money will complain > about disassembly with the "pling" of flying broken-plastic sproggets - > but it makes little economic sense to do otherwise. I've been meaning > the last week to try & find a source of Laserjet rollers where I can > purchase 10 or 20 at more sensible rates, but I'm not overflowing with > optimism. This sentiment only reinforces the idea that *you* value your printers at much more than ?35. Here is the way to think about it. Say you had no printer, and someone offered you one of two deals (1) A used but fully functional HP laserjet 4+ for ?25 (2) A cheap plastic rubbish printer for ?35 That really is your choice. Even ignoring option #2, you say you can get your printer back in working shape for ?25, and the market value of that repaired printer is ?35. OK, repair yours and you save ?10. I don't see the conundrum. > I'm inclined to think that in a few years time our current consumerist > practices of throwing away hardware rather than repairing it will begin > once again to look foolish, but in the meantime what's one to do? Pick option (1) above. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 09:19:11 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:19:11 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com Hi A couple minor errors in typing. See changes: > > Hi > The ADD HL,H was a mistake. It should have been ADD HL,HL. > Here is my loopless and conditional less version: > > ; divides 0-799 by 10 > ; hl is input dividend > ; a= qoutient > ; h=remainder Should be: ; l=remainder > > Div10fast > ld d,h > lde,l should be: ld e,l > add hl,hl > add hl,hl > add hl,de > add hl,hl > ld b,h > ld c,l > add hl,hl > add hl,hl > add hl,bc > add hl,de > ld a,h ; add little more accuracy > add a,#16d ; tweak value > ld c,a > ld b,#0 > add hl,bc > ld a,h ; quo*2 > rra ; quo=a > ld l,a > ld c,a > ld h,b > add hl,hl > add hl,hl > add hl,bc > add hl,hl ; quo*10 to calc Remainder > ex de,hl > sbc hl,de ; l= remainder > ret > > 230 clock cycles and no conditionals > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 09:33:01 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:33:01 -0800 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: <479B4C3B.9090003@pacbell.net> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <479B4C3B.9090003@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > From: frustum at pacbell.net --snip--- > > You lose me here. Who cares about the resale value. What matters is > what is the value to you. If you can get a fantastic laser printer back > in operating condition for ?25 with little effort, it sounds like a no > brainer to me. > > Hi How about a 4si+ w/ duplex for $25. Just needs rollers. That is what I use now. I do have some collectables. I have a Centronics 603 that was relabled as an Intel printer ( painted blue ) I also have an early Epson printer made in the US that is a chain printer. I have a couple early fx80 compatable dot matrix printers and last a nice Brother daisy wheel w/ several special wheels Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 26 09:57:57 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:57:57 -0600 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080126084441.04ce05e0@mail.threedee.com> Geez, you guys will whine about anything. :-) I look at the printer situation "on the other hand." On the other hand, at least on this end of the pond and its Interwebs, there are many places that will sell you parts for your N-year-old HP tank. (A quick Googling reveals 10-packs of rollers for $14.99 shipped from eBay, oodles of parts sellers, and handy combo forums/sellers like http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/search/center?q=hp+4000 , oh, and look at that, rubber roller rejuvenator at $10 a can, a FAQ here on CCC.) Maybe I'll change my mind a little if you can show me an HP printer part that you *can't* buy a replacement for (online). And if you do think there's some bit of unobtainium in old HPs, and the dead ones are going for 5 cents a pound in your burg, then rent a warehouse and buy a dumpster full of them, rip them apart and try to make a living selling the bits. You're complaining that a roller kit costs ~$20 shipped? Everything small costs $20 shipped. Be glad that these parts are easily available, as opposed to many other parts of this hobby /career that are actually rare. A few months ago, a Dell rep called trying to sell me new (not refurb) Dell desktop laser printers at $70 each. I passed. They probably have better quality than my 15-y-o HP 4m, and they're not networked, PostScript, or Mac compatible. Yes, there's a place for 1200 and 600 DPI as opposed to 300 DPI. There's an old color HP 5 under the table, too, and a boxful of surplus toner bottles that'll feed it for years, which I picked up all for a song. I use it for jobs that need a sprinkle of color but not high quality. HP's business model now is about selling consumables, not making printers that last 15+ years. As Bob says, "You'll pay to get what you really want". - John From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jan 26 10:35:33 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:35:33 -0000 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <4BDDC832124F@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <001001c86039$7a1e7d40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Do you know a reason why VMS would write that "high" on the drive > during a simple restore (minimal system) and subsequent boot. I > know it would put dir/maps in the middle, but this is a fair way > above the middle. I don't know exactly where the issue lies here. You have a virtual 1.5GB RA92. SIMH hasn't seen fit to ask for a 1.5GB file yet, just a 1GB one. I presume that this means that SIMH will grow the file dynamically. As for why that much of the disk has been used, I don't know. I do know that and image backup followed by a restore was the recommended way of defragmenting disks for a long time. So backup will "rearrange" things. I guess it boils down to how the filesystem goes looking for available blocks, and I don't remember how that works in detail. I do know that the default INIT places the bitmap and other "high usage" things in the middle (as you've found). That's because it used to cut down seek times back in the days of days of RA60s and RL02s. It may well be that the allocation scheme works from the middle of the disk outwards, or something like that. > I don't know if I can capture the output of SIMH, but I will > try to do this on a real vax later today and capture the output. > I didn't do /FULL, this was just the #blocks listed in the short > listing. If it's this one: KRAKAR> sh dev dka0 Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt $1$DKA0: (KRAKAR) Mounted 0 OPENVMS071 28246713 424 1 KRAKAR> then that's just the _free_ block size. > No SHOW DEV involved - the 1331208 number came by dividing the actual > size of the CD image file by 512. - Just looking to understand why it > behaves differently - Perhaps SIMH adjusts the blocksize somehow, so > this is not the actual size of the disk created. Going back to your RA92 initial query, that's a 1.5GB disk. So that's roughly 3,000,000 blocks, give or take. You installed VMS onto that. What you saw was 2,479,032 blocks, but if that's the output of SHOW DEV (and not SHOW DEV/FULL) then that's the free blocks. So your VMS install ate up 500,000 blocks (or ~250MB or so). The exact size of the VMS install depends on how big a PAGEFILE and SWAPFILE you gave it, but 250MB seems perfectly reasonable. Given what you say, I think that you are reading the output of SHOW DEV and not realising that this is the number of free blocks. Maybe. > Wouldn't this result in trying to boot a full image on the CD > (although > I could specifically boot stabackup assuming it's on the image). My > goal was to put stabackup and a save set on the CD. You want a bootable CD along with a saveset that you can then use to restore to a new disk? That's fine. I'd still go the LD route, backing up to a saveset on the LD disk and building SABKP on the LD disk, but I just like LD :-) If you are doing this to restore a data CD you don't strictly need SABKP on that CD. You can build SABKP on any disk attached to the machine: so you can install SABKP on the system disk. Then you boot SABKP off the system disk (/R5=E0000000 iirc) and restore the saveset. Back in the day, there was a strong recommendation to having SABKP on the system disk (and on a few data disks too, in case the system disk was the one you needed to restore and its SABKP had gone south). Booting a SABKP on a VAX-11/750 off a local disk took a few minutes. Doing the same thing using TU58 took almost an hour (and you needed to swap TU58s once or twice!). There was even a command procedure that would "optimise" your TU58s by putting stuff on there in the order that the boot process asked for them - shaved maybe 10 minutes off the overall time! > Yes, I really do mean it - I have two 3100 series machines which > suffer from the limitation, and I want to put 1G drives in them - but > all of > my 1G drives are "just a little too big". Please elaborate on the > "tricks". > > What I mean is that I want to create a 650M image to burn to the CD, > however I don't have any 650M drives - I've got LOTS of 1G drives, > so if I could mount them smaller (650M or less) I could create a > filesystem on them that will fit on a CD. Pick up LDDRIVER from the OpenVMS Freeware and install. Use SYSGEN to create a 650MB contiguous file on your 1GB disk, tell LD about the file and have it map LDA1: to it. You now have a 650MB disk (LDA1:) that is conveniently stored on your disk as a file. > But I don't think it really matters - What I will probably do is > transfer an image of the drive to SIMH where I can then perform a > backup of it to a virtual disk which can be any size I want. That also works. > Q: Is stand-alone backup from OpenVMS 7.x compatible with older > version filesystems? - If I backup my VMS 5.5 disk using stabackup > from 7.2, and restore it with same, will I get a workable VMS 5.5 > system disk again? I haven't tried booting 5.5 under SIMH yet - If > for some reason it doesn't work, then I may need to do this with > the OpenVMS utilities. It most certainly had better be backwards compatible at least as far as ODS-1 used on VAX/VMS 1.0! OK, I've never gone that far back, but I would consider it a bug (and a fairly serious one, given that this is BACKUP!) if this did not work. Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1244 - Release Date: 25/01/2008 19:44 From fernande at internet1.net Sat Jan 26 10:24:59 2008 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:24:59 -0500 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> Message-ID: <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> I have one printer in my "collection"..... It's an Okidata Microline 92 .....and one regular user an HP Laser Jet 4L Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 26 10:49:32 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:49:32 +0100 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <479A5952.17224.2EC1084F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479A5952.17224.2EC1084F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <479B649C.1090307@bluewin.ch> > How about a NV SRAM, such as the DS1220? 100 nsec, 24-pin JEDEC > pinout. Or an ST M48Z12, same-oh pinout and capacity? These look like the best option. > > Are you trying to replace something like an 82S191? > Indeed , I have a CPU with 40 bit wide microword (5x 82s191). I would like to replace the instructions for read sector, write sector and set track. Target is to use an IDE drive instead of the original cartridge drive. Jos From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Jan 26 11:00:57 2008 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:00:57 -0800 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: <200801261322.m0QDM1Ft056441@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801261322.m0QDM1Ft056441@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Stroller wrote: > I think it's tragic to be throwing out such decent & solidly- > constructed printers in favour of cheap plastic rubbish - in the > event a repair is necessary the kind of printers we can get for less > money will complain about disassembly with the "pling" of flying > broken-plastic sproggets - but it makes little economic sense to do > otherwise. I've been meaning the last week to try & find a source of > Laserjet rollers where I can purchase 10 or 20 at more sensible > rates, but I'm not overflowing with optimism. I tend to like the better printers even if you do have to put some $ into upkeep. I made that decision after cursing out a cheap printer that would have "issues" often. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 11:03:12 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:03:12 -0800 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com> This discussion reminds me I need to clear some space to setup my HP 2608A and see if I can get it working and hooked up to my HP-1000. It's a dot matrix printer rated at something like 400 LPM. Almost 30 years old. The November 1978 HP Journal had several pages on the 2608A. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=315 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 26 11:25:13 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:25:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI-82 "Guidebook" In-Reply-To: <714303.67597.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <714303.67597.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080126092322.L72669@shell.lmi.net> one corner of cover is badly creased; book appears otherwise untouched, complete with 'ref card, etc. Note: no calculator, just the book. $5 with priority mail shipping. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 26 11:25:38 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:25:38 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <01ad01c8601d$b88e49f0$01fea8c0@portajara> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <01ad01c8601d$b88e49f0$01fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2008, at 8:13 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Very interesting question. The situation was different for a long > time here in Brazil. I have an old Laserjet 4+ which had about a liter > or two of coke inside, when I bought it on a scrapyard. I bought it > for R$ 100, when the market value was about R$ 500 and a new printer > was more than R$ 1200. Disassembled, cleaned, rebuilt the printer and > I use it since then. But now a **brand new** hp printer costs around > R$ 300 and what to do with the old gal when it breaks? > > I still use that (I do a lot of printer circuit making with it) but > how long it will last? A brand new one is super-cheap, but newer HP printers are absolute garbage. That LJ4+ will last practically forever. If you can find a junker to keep around as a source for parts, you'll be able to keep it running indefinitely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 26 11:29:59 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:29:59 -0600 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000c01c86041$1a26cbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I have about 6 or so early dos era printers that some may consider collectible. They were the most common ones in the early days on apples, early PC's, etc. Think epson, star, okidata, etc. I myself do not consider them collectable, and would LOVE to get rid of them to a good home. In my office at home I use a HP LaserJet 4+ with options: extended capacity lower tray, duplexer, maximum memory, and large capacity power envelope feeder. It's in good shape, but I do have the full service docs on it and will do anything I can to keep it running forever. A similar printer with large capacity envelope printer (what I use/need most) would be very expensive these days, and be basically a hunk of plastic junk anyways. I'll stick with the battleship laserjet 4+ :) I don't consider this collectible, but certainly won't get rid of it! I do have one printer that is (to me) quite collectible. An HP 2610A printer. Every bit of 350 pounds, a floorstanding monster about 5 foot long. I haven't torn into it yet to restore it, but all you have to do is look at the large motors in it and know it's a "real" printer. Several of the belts in the printer are as large and thick as the belts in my lawn and garden tractor. The buttons on top very much remind one of the old mainframe style pushbuttons. I have fond memories of getting my printouts off a 2610 back in high school from the 2000/Access machine. Since it's such a mechanical beast, I'm a little unsure of my skills to refurbish it but I will try. It had a very particular sound when printing and I'd love to hear it again. I guess if you're going to include printing terminals, I do have a mint Decwriter (LA120) but who doesn't. Oh, and a highly collectable Data General TP2! Those are just cute - and I believe it has the guts of a nova computer in the base for control. Picture here: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/dgporn/05300001.JPG I wouldn't think that qualifies me as a "printer collector" though. But I do like having the correct (or at least period correct) user interface devices on my machines. Jay West From technobug at comcast.net Sat Jan 26 12:00:58 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: <200801261322.m0QDM1Fm056441@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801261322.m0QDM1Fm056441@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51F21E69-18ED-4262-8A59-9D2A59403DF1@comcast.net> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:19:19 +0000, Stroller wrote: > *sigh* > > I have a similar conundrum here. > [...] > The HP engineers intended for this part to be easily > replaceable, and you can easily pick up a roller set on eBay. > Unfortunately the price comes to about ?12 per tray - or perhaps ?25 > shipped for rubbers for both lower trays plus the manual feed pickup, > too - and these printers have a resale value of only ?35. > > [...] > Stroller. > > You might want to check out . The pickup roller is $1.00. They have replacement parts for all sorts of laserwriters and have presence on many sides of the pond. Good folks - just a very satisfied customer... CRC From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 26 12:46:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:46:18 -0800 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <200801261800.m0QI0CpK059672@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801261800.m0QI0CpK059672@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479B0F7A.31781.3188941A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:29:59 -0600 Okay, so who wants a working Diablo Hitype II? Spare wheels and (probably dried-out) ribbons. Free for pickup, or for the cost of shipping. RS-232C interface. This is the RO model, not the KSR. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 26 13:30:48 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:30:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> <1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Glen Slick wrote: > This discussion reminds me I need to clear some space to setup my HP > 2608A and see if I can get it working and hooked up to my HP-1000. > It's a dot matrix printer rated at something like 400 LPM. I worked on those, back in 1986-88. It used a shuttle driven by a large voice coil. It was surprisingly quiet for its speed. Adjustments were a bit finicky, but not bad. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Jan 26 13:33:09 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:33:09 -0500 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors In-Reply-To: <200801261458.m0QEwCQw057306@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080126142439.02fcfde0@mail.degnanco.net> > >Subject: Re: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of > the times > >I actually have an interest in printers, but there are the following >problems: > > >2) Printers were commoditized quite some time ago. Remember the Epson >FX-80? (And later the RX-80.) A printer was one of the few >peripherals that *everyone* who had an Apple ][/IBM PC (or clone) >needed. (Paperless office, my ass!) As a result printers were one of >the few things that could be commoditized across all brands of >computers from micros to mainframes -- although it would probably look >silly to have an Epson FX-80 hooked up to a mainframe! I brought this topic up as a thread on vintage-computer.com/vcforums. I keep one printer per system type in operational condition, and use them for comprehensive testing of systems. Same goes for modems. I think that the Diablo printer is worthy of collecting (I have an Commdore-branded OEM model CBM 8300P, which is quite rare I believe). A nice IBM Proprinter is worth holding onto. Boxed printers are easy to store, I prefer printers in their original boxes, otherwise I am less likely to keep them. Bill D From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 26 13:38:21 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:38:21 -0600 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net><1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... >> This discussion reminds me I need to clear some space to setup my HP >> 2608A and see if I can get it working and hooked up to my HP-1000. >> It's a dot matrix printer rated at something like 400 LPM. Mike replied... > I worked on those, back in 1986-88. It used a shuttle driven by a > large voice coil. It was surprisingly quiet for its speed. Adjustments > were a bit finicky, but not bad. Maybe you can help on my 2610 too then. But the 2610 is decidedly not dot-matrix. I believe the print mechanism is a large drum - but I haven't torn into it and can't say for sure. Definitely not dot matrix though. The stand itself is probably over 100 pounds, pretty much just a big hunk of metal. When the 2610 was printing you could feel it in the floors & walls ;) Jay From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 26 14:06:58 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:06:58 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <001001c86039$7a1e7d40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <4BDDC832124F@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4D08BFC7490D@dunfield.com> Thanks again for the info... > It may well be that the allocation scheme works from the middle > of the disk outwards, or something like that. Agreed. I'm not going to worry about it. > Given what you say, I think that you are reading the output of SHOW DEV > and not realising that this is the number of free blocks. Maybe. Uh-huh ... yup yup ... thats exactly it (and there's even a label on the column "FREE") ... Foolish me. Looking at the total counts with /FULL everything makes sense now. > You want a bootable CD along with a saveset that you can then use > to restore to a new disk? That's fine. I'd still go the LD route, > backing up to a saveset on the LD disk and building SABKP on the > LD disk, but I just like LD :-) Main reason I want to do this without adding software etc. is that I've just gotten the system, and I want to preserve the system disk exactly as I received it *before* I go adding/changing/removing things... Good news is that it all worked. I put the drive in my NetBSD VAX and dd'd the content into a file, then FTP'd it over to the PC where I mounted it under SIMH - I could read it just fine, however VMS 5.5 wouldn't boot under SIMh - it reported a whole bunch of bad licenses (not surprising) and crash/dumped almost all the way through the boot process - I tried it a few times trying to "catch" the output with CTRL-S to see what exactly was failing, but I was unsuccessful (I guess I need a slower system for SIMh). Anyway, using VMS 7.2 BACKUP I created a save set from the VMS 5.5 disk which I copied to a CD image with VMS 7.2 stand-alone restore. Then I burned a disk from that with Nero - and amazingly it all works - I can boot the CD on the original system (4000 VLC) and restore the save set to a never-vmsed-before drive and it then boots up and runs! (whew!) I do have one question relating to a difference - see later: > Booting a SABKP on a VAX-11/750 off a > local disk took a few minutes. Doing the same thing using > TU58 took almost an hour (and you needed to swap TU58s once > or twice!). Yeah - I tried booting it from a DAT drive once ... I have it on the SYSE boot of my system disk, and also on CD (it's not bad from CD). > Pick up LDDRIVER from the OpenVMS Freeware and install. Use > SYSGEN to create a 650MB contiguous file on your 1GB disk, tell > LD about the file and have it map LDA1: to it. You now have > a 650MB disk (LDA1:) that is conveniently stored on your > disk as a file. I read about doing this - but what about the system disk case. You can't boot from an LD disk can you? (I assume the LD doesn't exist until you are booted?) If the system crash-dumps it could wipe out the root of the drive due to the 1G wraparound. I'd really like to be able to use my 1.09G drives as system drives in the 3100's (next closest I have is a few RZ23's (100m). Now my question: I see a difference when I boot the system from the original drive, and the backups - this happens with BOTH the direct drive to drive backup that I origianlly made, and also when restored from the saveset (Both restores boot the same, which is different from the original drive). Basically I'm getting a message from AUTID$SERVER saying that there is an event (security alarms disabled) that does not occur when booting from the original drive. A couple of other messages come out in a slightly different order - I expect this is just due to asynchronous processes during startup, and I have not verified that they always come out in this order... Here is an abbreviated listing of the console output during booting the system: B> Indicates output that occurs on both Old and New drives O> Indicates output that occurs on the Old drive N> Indicates output that occurs on the New drive Most of the N> / O> differences are rearranged messages that I indicated above, however the audit message occurs only on the N>ew drive ... Can you tell me what this means, and what is different about the restored system from the original? I can send you the complete console boot logs if needed. B> VAX/VMS Version V5.5 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 B>%STDRV-I-STARTUP, VMS startup begun at 1-JAN-2000 00:15:43.09 B>The VAX/VMS system is now executing the system startup procedure. B>%SET-I-NEWAUDSRV, identification of new audit server process is 00000048 B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:37.16 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Operator _MAGVS8$OPA0: has been enabled, username SYSTEM B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:37.31 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Operator status for operator _MAGVS8$OPA0: B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:37.59 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Logfile has been initialized by operator _MAGVS8$OPA0: B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:37.60 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Operator status for operator MAGVS8::SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;354 B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:40.33 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Message from user SYSTEM on MAGVS8 B>Warning: DECdtm log file not found (SYS$JOURNAL:SYSTEM$MAGVS8.LM$JOURNAL) B> %RMS-E-FNF, file not found B> TP server process waiting B>The VAX/VMS system is now executing the site-specific startup commands. B>%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004C B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:43.71 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Message from user DECNET on MAGVS8 B>DECnet starting N>%NCP-I-NOINFO, No information in database N>%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004E B>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:49.54 %%%%%%%%%%% B>Message from user DECNET on MAGVS8 B>DECnet event 4.10, circuit up O>%NCP-I-NOINFO, No information in database O>%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004E O>%MOUNT-F-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available --- This is the additional message I get on the backups --- N>%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:51.87 %%%%%%%%%%% N>Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on MAGVS8 N>Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on MAGVS8, system id: 1632 N>Auditable event: Security audit alarms disabled N>Event time: 1-JAN-2000 00:16:51.77 N>PID: 00000043 N>Username: SYSTEM N>Auditing flags: ACL,MOUNT,AUTHORIZATION,INSTALL N> BREAKIN: (DIALUP,LOCAL,REMOTE,NETWORK,DETACHED) N> LOGIN: (BATCH,DIALUP,LOCAL,REMOTE,NETWORK,SUBPROCESS, N> DETACHED) N> LOGFAIL: (BATCH,DIALUP,LOCAL,REMOTE,NETWORK,SUBPROCESS, N> DETACHED) N> LOGOUT: (BATCH,DIALUP,LOCAL,REMOTE,NETWORK,SUBPROCESS, N> DETACHED) N> FAILURE: (READ,WRITE,EXECUTE,DELETE,CONTROL) N> SUCCESS: (READ,WRITE,EXECUTE,DELETE,CONTROL) N> SYSPRV: (READ,WRITE,EXECUTE,DELETE,CONTROL) N> BYPASS: (READ,WRITE,EXECUTE,DELETE,CONTROL) N> GRPPRV: (READ,WRITE,EXECUTE,DELETE,CONTROL) N> READALL: (READ,WRITE,EXECUTE,DELETE,CONTROL) O>%MOUNT-F-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available B>*** Start Configure VCP300 KL- May /93 *** B>%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004F B> LAT Control Program B>%SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available B>*** Done Configure VCP300 KL- May /93 *** B>%SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 0 B> 1-JAN-2000 00:17:06 B>%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 00000051 B> SYSTEM job terminated at 1-JAN-2000 00:17:33.82 B> Accounting information: -- The I/O counts, page faults etc. are slightly different Thanks again. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Jan 26 14:08:06 2008 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim s) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:08:06 -0800 Subject: .. 1973... Intertechnique Multi 8 / Microdata 800-1600 In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0801260701q586faf5ahc0e3cf1e749146f@mail.gmail.com> References: <003901c85f65$1fd07570$2601a8c0@JM3800> <310f50ab0801260701q586faf5ahc0e3cf1e749146f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479B9326.1020505@msm.umr.edu> from at fu3.org wrote: > 2008/1/25, pichotjm : > > >> The root address http://pichotjm.free.fr will lead you in early computers... >> This machine is a clone of the Microdata 800 licensed by Intertechnique in 1969 or 1970. This is a really nice set of photos of this machine. Does anyone know of any Pick Evolution machines, or these Multi 8's or other such equipment? This machine may have been used in automation, such as early NC hardware, printing presses, etc, and may not be marked to be recognizable as this machine is. However Intertechnique and Cincinnati Millacron used the 800 in their equipment. The CM boards are still in use in their original form on early 900 model NC controllers, so perhaps some of the Intertechnique may be as well. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 26 15:05:52 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:05:52 -0700 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:29:59 -0600. <000c01c86041$1a26cbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <000c01c86041$1a26cbb0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I guess if you're going to include printing terminals, I do have a mint > Decwriter (LA120) but who doesn't. Oh, and a highly collectable Data General > TP2! Those are just cute - and I believe it has the guts of a nova computer > in the base for control. Picture here: > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/dgporn/05300001.JPG Wow... you really did toss a bunch of junk from your basement :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 15:11:41 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:11:41 -0800 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> <1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com> <001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801261311j45aefe3el4e1e96bacdf1887d@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 26, 2008 11:38 AM, Jay West wrote: > > Maybe you can help on my 2610 too then. But the 2610 is decidedly not > dot-matrix. I believe the print mechanism is a large drum - but I haven't > torn into it and can't say for sure. Definitely not dot matrix though. The > stand itself is probably over 100 pounds, pretty much just a big hunk of > metal. When the 2610 was printing you could feel it in the floors & walls ;) > Does it look like this (not so great) picture of a 2614A? This reference says they were both drum printers, with the 2614A being 3 times as fast in LPM compared to the 2610A. http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=545 From ericj at speakeasy.org Sat Jan 26 15:24:37 2008 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Robert Nansel wrote: > Wow, that takes me back. Hacking away on Pascal programs on H-19 > terminals in the H-19 editor at two-thirty in the morning in the > ACC...the vending machine that dispensed rhino piss they claimed was > tea. Oh, those were the days. > > H-19 was the first screen editor I ever used, though I never did get > used to the "colour" command system they introduced in later years. > Bah, the old system worked fine, why did they hafta go and change it? > Do you know if they ever diestributed the H19 editor outside the UW? I haven't seen it in any of the VMS archives. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 26 15:38:26 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:38:26 -0800 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:19 AM +0000 1/26/08, Stroller wrote: >My father & I have about half-a-dozen Laserjet >4000s which fail to pick the paper properly. The >problem can easily be isolated to the rubber >"pick up" roller at the front of the tray - >measured with a micrometer a good one is a >hair's breadth larger in diameter than one that >is worn. I'm responsible for the Unix Printing and Plotting at work, so I know the problem. We had this with either a 4100n or a 4200n that a lab was running cardstock through. What I see die a *LOT* and what can't be cheap to replace are the blasted NIC's for the various types of HP hardware. If I have a dead piece of HP printing/plotting, that's a good first bet. >the manual feed pickup, too - and these printers >have a resale value of only ?35. I should see what these go for in the US... I'd like to upgrade my 5mp to something with built in ethernet and a duplexer. >I'm inclined to think that in a few years time >our current consumerist practices of throwing >away hardware rather than repairing it will >begin once again to look foolish, but in the >meantime what's one to do? HP dropped support on a *LOT* of plotters in 2006, they did this without any warning. In fact I'd placed a service call on one and had them out *after* the drop date, without anyone saying anything to me. I'm responsible for a lot of plotters, HP wants us to replace almost all of them and refuses to work on them. IDIOTS! As a result I found a third party repair outfit that responds faster to any problems I have and costs less than 1/3 what HP was charging. I've done a good job of convincing management so far that HP can go to H***, and that we're not buying the exact same plotter just to be "supported" by HP. Still at least HP can provide me with usable plotter paper, unlike a certain company.... And before anyone asks why I'm not repairing these things on my own, I did in the past, but I no longer have time. Printing and plotting isn't my real job, and my real job keeps me way to busy these days. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 26 15:43:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:43:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 25, 8 05:53:37 pm Message-ID: > The time came to replace the OPC drum in one of these--after pricing > the remanufactured ones and checking the deals on eBay, it turned out > not to be practical. I found that I can get a factory refurb Brother > 5240 from Staples.com for $40 shipped. When it runs out of toner, I > can just buy another one at that price (1200 DPI, 23 PPM and most > important--a parallel interface). I haev no idea of the relative build quality of those 2 machines, but many times I've spent more on spares to keep an old machine running than it would cost to buy a seemingly equivalent new machine just becasue the old machine is so much better made. Having a machine that's not going to fail in an interesting way at an important moemnt is often important... I've noticed that some new printers and photocopiers (at least over here) come with 'demo' ink or toner cartridges which are specified to print a lot few pages than the normal ones. So it may actually be cheaper to buy the cartridge rather than replace the peinter in the end.... > But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. I've been called a `nobody' many times before, but surely not on this list.... As I've metnioned, I am not primarily a computer collector. I like interesting bits of engineering, which may or may not run user programs. For that reason I do collect _some_ printers. In particular : HPIL-interfaced printers (useful with HP handhelds) HPIB-interfaced _ASCII_ printers (not old commodoer ones in general), which work with a lot of my odd machines Printers with oscure itnerfaces which I might end up with the machine to drive one day Printers using strange printing methods. Things like the Versatec electrostatic matrix printers which build up a charge image on coated paper and run liquid toner over it. Pritners with odd mecahnaisms (that shaded poler motor driving a belt that the carraige grabs with a solenoid, used in some Centronics printers is an exaple). In fact just about anyting other htan commodity inkjets/dot matrix printers... There are a couple of units I am activiely looking for, but in genral printers are ulky and heavy, so I couldn't consider having them shipped... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 26 16:13:47 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:13:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080126084441.04ce05e0@mail.threedee.com> from "John Foust" at Jan 26, 8 09:57:57 am Message-ID: > > > Geez, you guys will whine about anything. :-) I look at the printer > situation "on the other hand." On the other hand, at least on this > end of the pond and its Interwebs, there are many places that will > sell you parts for your N-year-old HP tank. That's the main reason I stick with Canon-engined laser printers. It's easy to get mechanical parts for them.. > Maybe I'll change my mind a little if you can show me an HP printer part > that you *can't* buy a replacement for (online). And if you do think Oh that's trivial. Here are a couple : A printhead module for an HP9866A (themral printer, 4 modules fit across the full width of the paper) The drive belt fro an HP9871 (daiswheel printer, the belt is about 2m long and looks like a ladder. I am told none have survived. This is one printer I would love to find, just to see if I can work out some alternative) Even if you stick to laser printers, how about finding the gate array chip (just he chip, not the whole PCB) for the DC controller board in a Laserjet 2 (SX engine) -tony From spc at conman.org Sat Jan 26 16:21:56 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: > > 230 clock cycles and no conditionals > Dwight I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to divide by 10: unsigned int div10(unsigned int n) { unsigned int q; unsigned int r; q = (n >> 1) + (n >> 2); q = q + (q >> 4); q = q + (q >> 8); q = q + (q >> 16); q = q >> 3; r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)); return (q + ((r + 6) >> 4); } On the Z80, the (q >> 8) is trivial to handle, and you can probably skip the (q >> 16) statement all-to-gether (since you're only handling 16 bits anyway, this reduces to 0 so the statement there can be skipped). My Z80 skills are pretty weak (and I don't have any references at hand right now) but this looks pretty straight forward to translate. -spc (In fact, the HackersDelight site is quite delightful) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 26 16:26:55 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:26:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net><1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com> <001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Jay West wrote: > Mike replied... >> I worked on those, back in 1986-88. It used a shuttle driven by a large >> voice coil. It was surprisingly quiet for its speed. Adjustments were a >> bit finicky, but not bad. > > Maybe you can help on my 2610 too then. But the 2610 is decidedly not > dot-matrix. I believe the print mechanism is a large drum - but I haven't > torn into it and can't say for sure. Definitely not dot matrix though. The > stand itself is probably over 100 pounds, pretty much just a big hunk of > metal. When the 2610 was printing you could feel it in the floors & walls ;) The 2608 and 2610 were two very different animals, unfortunately. I also worked on the 2619, which was a 1000 lpm chain/train printer manufactured for HP by Printronix, and the 2617 drum printer. I don't remember a lot of details after 20 years. :-) With the HP maintenance manual and a scope though, you can do a lot. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 26 17:18:17 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:18:17 -0600 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net><1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com><001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90801261311j45aefe3el4e1e96bacdf1887d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01c86071$bb9404b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... > Does it look like this (not so great) picture of a 2614A? This > reference says they were both drum printers, with the 2614A being 3 > times as fast in LPM compared to the 2610A. > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=545 No, not really. The 2610 looks a bit older styling, and while it's very hard to tell from that picture - larger. Googling shows that once again, HP has reused a part number for something completely different. Everything is in a state of disarray from the sewer incident, but if I can put hands on the docs I will scan a picture of it. I don't want to take a picture of mine as it's not easily accessible. Jay From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 26 17:37:08 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:37:08 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <479B4C3B.9090003@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <007f01c86074$6124e5a0$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: RE: A sign of the times. (Laserjet 4000s here) > > > From: frustum at pacbell.net > --snip--- > > > > You lose me here. Who cares about the resale value. What matters is > > what is the value to you. If you can get a fantastic laser printer back > > in operating condition for ?25 with little effort, it sounds like a no > > brainer to me. > > > > > Hi > How about a 4si+ w/ duplex for $25. Just needs rollers. That is > what I use now. > I do have some collectables. > I have a Centronics 603 that was relabled as an Intel printer ( painted blue ) > I also have an early Epson printer made in the US that is a chain printer. > I have a couple early fx80 compatable dot matrix printers > and last a nice Brother daisy wheel w/ several special wheels > Dwight > > I snagged a HP 4Si last year with a bunch of spare parts (fusers, empty toner carts). The unit had 16MB RAM and the PS option, plus the network interface that supports Macs as well (which is why I wanted it). I added another 8MB and all I need is a duplexer. There was a service manual included. Its not bad for its age having ethernet, 600DPI and 17PPM, seems to be made to last forever. Does anybody here bother drilling and refilling toners for those machines? Older laser printers seem to last forever, my original Epson Actionlaser 1500 still works fine and that was purchased new in the mid 1990's. TZ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 26 18:36:22 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:36:22 -0300 Subject: A sign of the times References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com><01ad01c8601d$b88e49f0$01fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <02c001c8607c$f59a7210$01fea8c0@portajara> > A brand new one is super-cheap, but newer HP printers are absolute > garbage. That LJ4+ will last practically forever. If you can find a > junker to keep around as a source for parts, you'll be able to keep it > running indefinitely. I already got it! Got a 4+ without fuser assembly for a song, and throw everything away but the useful parts: Gear train, motor, power supply, panel and have (safely) stored a new fuser roller, fuser gear and "fuse" gear (the entire gear train of the 4+ is made of metal, but ONE gear. This gear breaks if the fuser assembly locks up or something weird happens in the gear train). I can make it work forever!!! Although I'd love to have a HP5 (that is an HP4 with two very interesting features: A "cancel job" button and the infrared comm) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Jan 26 17:41:31 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:41:31 -0800 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time ? In-Reply-To: <479B649C.1090307@bluewin.ch> References: <200801260444.m0Q4i8O9030157@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479A5952.17224.2EC1084F@cclist.sydex.com> <479B649C.1090307@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <479BC52B.20109@mindspring.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > >> How about a NV SRAM, such as the DS1220? 100 nsec, 24-pin JEDEC >> pinout. Or an ST M48Z12, same-oh pinout and capacity? > > These look like the best option. >> >> Are you trying to replace something like an 82S191? >> > > Indeed , I have a CPU with 40 bit wide microword (5x 82s191). > I would like to replace the instructions for read sector, write sector > and set track. > Target is to use an IDE drive instead of the original cartridge drive. > > Jos > > > The CY7C264 (UV EEPROM 8Kx8 24p/600mil, 45-55ns) is a direct drop in replacement for the 82S191. The two extra chip selects on the '191 are upper address lines on the '264; just alias your '191 image four times, and drop in the '264. CY7C264 can be found on ebay most any time. A typical good price is $4-$6 each in small quantity. Don AK6DN From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 26 18:56:45 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:56:45 -0300 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> <000c01c86041$1a26cbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <02d701c8607f$b3076ae0$01fea8c0@portajara> > In my office at home I use a HP LaserJet 4+ with options: extended > capacity lower tray, duplexer, maximum memory, and large capacity power > envelope I would welcome a duplexer, but this is something impossible to be found in Brazil :o( From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jan 26 18:43:43 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:43:43 -0500 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...slight change in topic In-Reply-To: <02d701c8607f$b3076ae0$01fea8c0@portajara> References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net> <479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net> <000c01c86041$1a26cbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <02d701c8607f$b3076ae0$01fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <479BD3BF.7050104@atarimuseum.com> Does anyone remember of Nova or one of the PBS broadcasts from the 80's a demonstration of a computer engineer who took dozens of printers and set them up to play various musical ensembles??? There were printers of all types and sizes, from full sized printers to smaller desktop to even calculators with printers built in... I saw it twice as a kid and all this talk of printers just reminded me of it. Curt From ericj at speakeasy.org Sat Jan 26 18:48:33 2008 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:48:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Richard wrote: > > They're H19 terminals. The UW had lots of these back in the 80's, but I'm > > really surprised they would still have any around. They replaced the ones > > in the ACC lab with NCD X-terms in the early 90's. > > Do they still have the X terms? X terminals are also getting rare in > terms of what people are using (although I guess they still work nice > with linux boxes). I couldn't say; I haven't visited the UW in over sixteen years. They had H19s all over campus, but I don't know if they replaced them with the NCDs anywhere but the ACC. Are people archiving X term software? I *might* still have the boot images and online docs for a Tek X term I owned. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 26 19:06:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:06:27 -0700 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:48:33 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Eric Josephson writes: > Are people archiving X term software? I *might* still have the boot > images and online docs for a Tek X term I owned. Archiving of X terminal boot software is important! The terminals come up on ebay and the software is almost never included (since it was installed on another machine somewhere in your network). If you could find that, I would most appreciate it! I have a bunch of X terminals for which I don't have software -- some of them are Tektronix terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 26 19:08:27 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:08:27 -0700 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...slight change in topic In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:43:43 -0500. <479BD3BF.7050104@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <479BD3BF.7050104 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Does anyone remember of Nova or one of the PBS broadcasts from the 80's > a demonstration of a computer engineer who took dozens of printers and > set them up to play various musical ensembles??? > > There were printers of all types and sizes, from full sized printers to > smaller desktop to even calculators with printers built in... I saw it > twice as a kid and all this talk of printers just reminded me of it. I've never heard of this, but it would be a great item for youtube. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tsw-cc at johana.com Sat Jan 26 19:22:14 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:22:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: On collecting printers... Message-ID: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It isn't difficult. But as anyone who knows, you must collect IMPACT printers! None of this silly laser stuff, or even worse an ink-spitter (they actually has ones that did!). Me my collection has a few: An older wide Decwriter (LA120?) A narrow DecWriter (LA30) that I modified to do upper and lower case. A nice Centronics 300 LPM band printer. A couple of Daisy-Wheel printers. Some actually work. The Qumes; I have a Sprint3/4 (depending upon the boards) with a keyboard, a Sprint 5 (RO). I also have a couple of Diablo ones that use the metal wheels. Then there are the OTHER ones: A couple of Noisy-90's (Silent 700s) of various types (some portable, some not). No to be true printer collector, one must have an impact printer somewhere. Even a teletype would do in a pinch (somewhere I've got an ASR33 stashed). On topic stuff: I've got some prints of the Qume printers somewhere if anyone is interested. They are pretty simple to interface. I used a MC6821 PIA and a few chips. Pretty easy. Good luck to all -- Sorry, No signature at the moment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From djg at pdp8.net Sat Jan 26 19:24:36 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:24:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors In-Reply-To: <200801261458.m0QEwCQo057306@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Jan 26, 2008 08:58:15 AM Message-ID: <200801270124.m0R1ObW25333@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > 1) "interesting" printers are large and power hungry and frankly hard > to find in isolation. When they are around, they are usually part of > a large mainframe/minicomputer package and you can't get *just* the > printer. > Those old line printers had such a nice impressive sound. At least looking back and when you will be doing short printouts on a classic computer. When you had to listen to it all day not so good. Way back in college they had a 9-1/2 DEC line printer drum/band on an old PDP-11. That would be about the right size to make a nice addition to my collection. Never have seen one like that since then and don't know what the model was. Whenever I find a DECwriter II (or unlikely I) within a reasonable drive I will add one of them to my collection. Do have a DEC dasywheel, a couple of dot matrix PC printers, and an ASR-33 From davis at saw.net Sat Jan 26 20:53:44 2008 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:53:44 -0800 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> Tom Watson wrote: > It isn't difficult. But as anyone who knows, you must collect IMPACT printers! > None of this silly laser stuff, or even worse an ink-spitter (they actually > has ones that did!). Me my collection has a few: > The Tek "ink spitters" of the 80's were built for long term, high volume service. The ink carts contained not milliliters, but ounces of ink. I'd grab one in a second. Jim Davis. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 21:09:33 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:09:33 -0600 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> Message-ID: I'm with you, impact printers!! I want a Printronix, P300, or P600 and then their later tiny desktop. There was also a 3 color ribbon and hardware mod for these, TRILOG, that would roll the paper back thru these for color printing. we had some processor cardsthat went in these too, for barcode. A color Versatec electrostatic would be welcome in my house. The best classic computer stuff, is the $$$$ leading edge graphics from the 80's!!! I was at Siggraph in 84 I think, at the Houston Astrodome, showing a realtime 3D Rubics cube solution on a high end Jupiter terminal... wow. Those were the days. Randy > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:53:44 -0800 > From: davis at saw.net > To: General at saw.net > CC: > Subject: Re: On collecting printers... > > Tom Watson wrote: > > It isn't difficult. But as anyone who knows, you must collect IMPACT printers! > > None of this silly laser stuff, or even worse an ink-spitter (they actually > > has ones that did!). Me my collection has a few: > > > The Tek "ink spitters" of the 80's were built for long term, high volume > service. The ink carts contained > not milliliters, but ounces of ink. I'd grab one in a second. > > Jim Davis. _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Jan 26 21:35:59 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:35:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479A6549.5000201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080127033559.5538C5686A@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard > > One thing DOSBOX can do for you is "fix" the older games. Some older > games simply run too slowly on a 4.77MHz machine to be enjoyable, like > some 3-D titles like Vette! or Starglider 2. For those, you can just Ack! Why play the DOS version of Starglider 2 when the Amiga version is soo much nicer looking? ;) > speed the machine up a little bit and try running the game again until > get you get a comfortable framerate. Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 26 21:39:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:39:44 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <200801270256.m0R2tsIG066246@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801270256.m0R2tsIG066246@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479B8C80.5870.3370EEDA@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 From: Sean Conner > I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to > divide by 10: I think that goes back to my original suggestion of effectively multiplying by a scaled reciprocal approximation of 0.1. The 6 in the last computation statement appears to be some sort of rounding factor. The problem as stated however, was to calculate x/10 and mod(x,10) (i.e. the remainder). Dwight seems to have figured this one out at least for the range of 0..799. If you/re a PIC programmer, there's a very cool web site that features a code generator for various problems: http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/codegen/index.htm But double-check the code that's generated; I've occasionally found some errors. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 21:45:03 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:45:03 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 > From: spc at conman.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Z80 Divide by 10 > > It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: >> >> 230 clock cycles and no conditionals >> Dwight > > I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to > divide by 10: > > unsigned int div10(unsigned int n) > { > unsigned int q; > unsigned int r; > > q = (n>> 1) + (n>> 2); > q = q + (q>> 4); > q = q + (q>> 8); > q = q + (q>> 16); > q = q>> 3; > r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)); > return (q + ((r + 6)>> 4); > } > > On the Z80, the (q>> 8) is trivial to handle, and you can probably skip > the (q>> 16) statement all-to-gether (since you're only handling 16 bits > anyway, this reduces to 0 so the statement there can be skipped). My Z80 > skills are pretty weak (and I don't have any references at hand right now) > but this looks pretty straight forward to translate. > Hi I coded this up in Forth and it does good at the divide. The values q and r are not much good, meaning one still has to calculate the remainder, similar to the last part of my code. The operation>> is really tough on a Z80 for 16 bit operations. One needs to do thing through the a register and use rra instructions or use the rr r instruction with a clearing of the carry before each single bit shift. Not having a parameterized shift like the 386 has makes it difficult. I doubt one could beat the 230 cycles I had since each shift cost 12 cycles. This is 34 to 38 shifts depending on optimization or 408 cycles minimum without the 7 16 bit adds. This is already more than the 230 cycles. It might perform quite well on a machine with a native parameterize right shift. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 26 21:58:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:58:18 -0800 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors In-Reply-To: <200801270256.m0R2tsIG066246@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801270256.m0R2tsIG066246@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479B90DA.7831.3381EF7A@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:24:36 -0500 (EST) From: djg at pdp8.net > Those old line printers had such a nice impressive sound. At least looking > back and when you will be doing short printouts on a classic computer. > When you had to listen to it all day not so good. There is no way that I would want to own and operate a CDC 501 (drum) or 512 (train) printer. Changing the ribbon, even with the provided gloves was a messy job (who knows if ribbons could even be found anymore), and when one of those ribbons got tangled up in the 512 type train, it was an hours-long incredibly messy job digging the bits and pieces out. Inevitably, you'd find that you'd assembled the type train with a character swapped here and there. The old drum printers tended to suffer from the wobbly line syndrome, where characters would be displaced from a straight line in a vertical direction. On the other hand, the train printers, while creating nice straight lines, would often displace characters in a horizontal direction. The former was far more noticeable than the latter. In the mid 70's, my lusted after personal printer was one of aftermarket Teletype model 40(?) band printers. About 300 lpm, I think and basically a tabletop unit, usually sold in an acoustic enclosure. Print quality was pretty good (upper- and lowercase), unless you printed a lot of dumps, whereupon the '0' would get kind of fuzzy after awhile. I still have a copy of the OEM manual for one of these if anyone's interested. I briefly had a Diablo dot-matrix printer--the carriage servo could crush your hand if you were stupid enough to put it in the wrong spot. An incredibly noisy screaming demon of a boat anchor. I got rid of it while I still had my hearing. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 26 22:00:06 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:00:06 -0600 Subject: HP 2610A printer was - Re: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong References: <20080126113451.22100@gmx.net><479B5EDB.3050004@internet1.net><1e1fc3e90801260903q4ce60c68y9d28128fcb9a7a83@mail.gmail.com><001401c86053$0280d9d0$6500a8c0@BILLING><1e1fc3e90801261311j45aefe3el4e1e96bacdf1887d@mail.gmail.com> <001a01c86071$bb9404b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <002601c86099$1b00d000$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ok, found all the docs. The HP 2610A is actually a rebadged or reskinned CDC 9322. Printing mechanism is print hammers and drum. I put up two pages out of the parts manual, one is a fairly poor but visible picture of the unit. The other is a lineart drawing that shows the front, back and major assemblies. That should give some idea of the item anyways. http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/HP2610/ Jay From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 26 21:56:17 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:56:17 -0500 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> Message-ID: <200801262256.17836.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 26 January 2008 22:09, Randy Dawson wrote: > I'm with you, impact printers!! > > I want a Printronix, P300, or P600 and then their later tiny desktop. > > There was also a 3 color ribbon and hardware mod for these, TRILOG, that > would roll the paper back thru these for color printing. we had some > processor cardsthat went in these too, for barcode. > > A color Versatec electrostatic would be welcome in my house. > > The best classic computer stuff, is the $$$$ leading edge graphics from the > 80's!!! > > I was at Siggraph in 84 I think, at the Houston Astrodome, showing a > realtime 3D Rubics cube solution on a high end Jupiter terminal... > > wow. Those were the days. I don't remember what brand it was now, but back when we had the shop this guy comes in for a printhead replacement (we had a pretty good supplier back then), and while I was at it he had me put in this "color kit" for that particular model, IIRC it was four stripes on that big old ribbon. Some time later he comes back wanting to know what the warranty was on the new printhead, I think we were getting kinda close to it. And he brought in a sample of what he was doing with it, which was detailed graphics output of some sort. Not that you were gonna get photo quality out of a dot matrix, but he was gonna get as close as he could. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 22:12:01 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:12:01 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > >> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 >> From: spc at conman.org >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Z80 Divide by 10 >> >> It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: >>> >>> 230 clock cycles and no conditionals >>> Dwight >> >> I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to >> divide by 10: >> >> unsigned int div10(unsigned int n) >> { >> unsigned int q; >> unsigned int r; >> >> q = (n>> 1) + (n>> 2); >> q = q + (q>> 4); >> q = q + (q>> 8); >> q = q + (q>> 16); >> q = q>> 3; >> r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)); >> return (q + ((r + 6)>> 4); >> } >> >> On the Z80, the (q>> 8) is trivial to handle, and you can probably skip >> the (q>> 16) statement all-to-gether (since you're only handling 16 bits >> anyway, this reduces to 0 so the statement there can be skipped). My Z80 >> skills are pretty weak (and I don't have any references at hand right now) >> but this looks pretty straight forward to translate. >> > Hi > I coded this up in Forth and it does good at the divide. > The values q and r are not much good, meaning one still > has to calculate the remainder, similar to the last part of my > code. > The operation>> is really tough on a Z80 for 16 bit operations. > One needs to do thing through the a register and use rra instructions > or use the rr r instruction with a clearing of the carry before each > single bit shift. Not having a parameterized shift like the 386 has > makes it difficult. > I doubt one could beat the 230 cycles I had since each shift cost > 12 cycles. This is 34 to 38 shifts depending on optimization or 408 > cycles minimum without the 7 16 bit adds. This is already more > than the 230 cycles. > It might perform quite well on a machine with a native parameterize > right shift. > Dwight > I forgot to show my non-optimized Forth code: : D10s ( n - q r Returned ) dup 2/ dup 2/ + dup 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ + dup 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ + ( skipping the 16 shifts ) 2/ 2/ 2/ swap over dup 2* 2* 2* swap 2* + - 2dup 6 + 2/ 2/ 2/ 2/ + ; : TestD10s ( - ) ( prints results 0 to 799 ) ( displays: n Returned r q ) 800 0 do i . i D10s . . . cr i 20 mod 0= if key drop cr then loop ; The Forth version I have does have a parameterized shift but I wanted to code similar to what I'd deal with in assembly. 2/ isn't unsigned on my Forth but for numbers up to 800, that is no problem. I typed this in with indents but hot mail strips leading spaces :( Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 26 22:12:23 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:12:23 -0500 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors In-Reply-To: <479B90DA.7831.3381EF7A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801270256.m0R2tsIG066246@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479B90DA.7831.3381EF7A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200801262312.24006.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 26 January 2008 22:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I briefly had a Diablo dot-matrix printer--the carriage servo could > crush your hand if you were stupid enough to put it in the wrong > spot. An incredibly noisy screaming demon of a boat anchor. I got > rid of it while I still had my hearing. Heh. I scrapped one of those a while back, and still have the mechanicals sitting up in the attic waiting for me to disassemble them. Servo motor being about the size of a soup can, maybe? That thing was big, anyhow... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 22:22:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:22:20 -0800 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: <200801262256.17836.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> <200801262256.17836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin connector for parallel printers became standard? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 26 22:24:12 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:24:12 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <20080127033559.5538C5686A@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080127033559.5538C5686A@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <479C076C.9090902@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard >> One thing DOSBOX can do for you is "fix" the older games. Some older >> games simply run too slowly on a 4.77MHz machine to be enjoyable, like >> some 3-D titles like Vette! or Starglider 2. For those, you can just > > Ack! Why play the DOS version of Starglider 2 when the Amiga version > is soo much nicer looking? ;) Actually, Starglider 2 looks and plays better on the PC than Amiga ;) A 386 w/VGA outperforms the Amiga version. Cinemaware games have some of the best CGA graphics I've ever seen, but they quite obviously pale to the Amiga originals. Ironically, the PC versions were made much easier than the Amiga, something I found odd. I finished Rocket Ranger and Defender of the Crown on PC, but the Amiga versions kicked my ass. This is OT so we should take it off-list. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jan 26 22:28:46 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:28:46 -0500 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> <200801262256.17836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <479C087E.4050409@atarimuseum.com> I think it was the Centronics 770. It had severe problems though, Centronics had to pull it from the market and thats when Epson jumped into the market and used the same centronics connector, everyone else followed along afterwards. Curt dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin connector > for parallel printers became standard? > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 26 22:28:47 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:28:47 -0800 Subject: SGI Octane 2 on Craigslist Message-ID: <479B97FF.21354.339DD762@cclist.sydex.com> Eugene, OR area: http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/551185465.html Cheers, Chuck From n8uhn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 26 22:29:28 2008 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <200801262242.m0QMg89M063579@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <967917.60557.qm@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> While we're on the subject, i'd like to collect one certain type of printer. one or two examples of one would be nice but, the problem is finding them and shipping them. i'm in Michigan usa and all the "good" stuff seems to be on the other side of the nation or in the UK ;) oh, the type of printer? belt or chain thier called. centronics or serial interface. ever since i saw the belt printer used in the ibm sys 32, i wanted to find a pc compatable one. do they even show up on ebay? anyone know of makes/models i should look for? Bill ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 26 23:41:09 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:41:09 -0800 Subject: The Centronics connector Message-ID: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> >> Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin connector >> for parallel printers became standard? > I think it was the Centronics 770. It had severe problems though, > Centronics had to pull it from the market and thats when Epson jumped >into the market -- Try at least 10 years earlier. Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 27 01:02:51 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:02:51 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 References: <200801270256.m0R2tsIG066246@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479B8C80.5870.3370EEDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <479C2C9B.A70A92E6@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 > From: Sean Conner > > > I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to > > divide by 10: > > I think that goes back to my original suggestion of effectively > multiplying by a scaled reciprocal approximation of 0.1. The 6 in > the last computation statement appears to be some sort of rounding > factor. Well, I was trying another variation on Chuck's earlier suggestion to see if it might do better than Dwight's fast routine. Whittled it down to exactly the same size as Dwight's in instruction count (29) and byte count (32), but Dwight's is still faster by 11 cycles. Dwight's routine implements: q = ( 51*x + (51*x/256+16) ) / 512 r = x - (q*4+q)*2 This routine implements: q = ( 2*x + x + ( (2*x+x)*4 + x )*4/256 )*8 / 256 which is variation on q = x/16 + x/32 + x/256 + x/512 + x/2048 remainder same as r above It fails a little earlier than Dwight's as well, at 1029 rather than 1210. I tried a coded version of the hackersdelight routine, it appears to be valid for a far larger range, in part as it only does right-shifts (no scaling up). ---------------------------------------------------- Segment: MAIN base=$0000 end=$001F bytes=32 machine z80 0000 54 Div10F LD D,H de = hl = dividend 0001 5D LD E,L 0002 29 ADD HL,HL 2x 0003 19 ADD HL,DE + x 0004 44 LD B,H bc = 3x 0005 4D LD C,L 0006 29 ADD HL,HL * 4 0007 29 ADD HL,HL 0008 19 ADD HL,DE + x 0009 29 ADD HL,HL * 4 000A 29 ADD HL,HL 000B 6C LD L,H / 256 000C 26 00 LD H,0 000E 09 ADD HL,BC + 3x 000F 29 ADD HL,HL * 8 0010 29 ADD HL,HL 0011 29 ADD HL,HL 0012 6C LD L,H / 256 0013 26 00 LD H,0 0015 7D LD A,L a = quotient 0016 44 LD B,H 0017 4F LD C,A bc = a 0018 29 ADD HL,HL rem = x - 10q 0019 29 ADD HL,HL 001A 09 ADD HL,BC 001B 29 ADD HL,HL 001C EB EX DE,HL 001D ED 52 SBC HL,DE l = remainder 001F C9 RET ---------------------------------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 26 07:40:10 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times Message-ID: <0JV900HUD7AU7Y86@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: the non-existence of printer collectors was Re: A sign of the times > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:41:35 -0600 > To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com":On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I do keep an Apple LaserWriter around, but mostly because anything can >> talk to it, and HP LaserJet supplies are easy to find. > >I second the part about LaserWriter. The only printers I accept in the >house are Postscript because anything can talk to them. Me I have a HP 4L, Epson LQ5000 for the parallel interface printers that speak basic ASCII as well as other protocals. I may have a MX80 as well. For the serial interface printing camp a pair of LA100RO. Not all of my systems speak postscript, they all speak ASCII. Allison From spc at conman.org Sun Jan 27 02:35:20 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 03:35:20 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: > > > > > > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 > > From: spc at conman.org > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Z80 Divide by 10 > > > > It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: > >> > >> 230 clock cycles and no conditionals > >> Dwight > > > > I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to > > divide by 10: > > > > unsigned int div10(unsigned int n) > > { > > unsigned int q; > > unsigned int r; > > > > q = (n>> 1) + (n>> 2); > > q = q + (q>> 4); > > q = q + (q>> 8); > > q = q + (q>> 16); > > q = q>> 3; > > r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)); > > return (q + ((r + 6)>> 4); > > } > > > > On the Z80, the (q>> 8) is trivial to handle, and you can probably skip > > the (q>> 16) statement all-to-gether (since you're only handling 16 bits > > anyway, this reduces to 0 so the statement there can be skipped). My Z80 > > skills are pretty weak (and I don't have any references at hand right now) > > but this looks pretty straight forward to translate. > > > Hi > I coded this up in Forth and it does good at the divide. > The values q and r are not much good, meaning one still > has to calculate the remainder, similar to the last part of my > code. > The operation>> is really tough on a Z80 for 16 bit operations. > One needs to do thing through the a register and use rra instructions > or use the rr r instruction with a clearing of the carry before each > single bit shift. Not having a parameterized shift like the 386 has > makes it difficult. > I doubt one could beat the 230 cycles I had since each shift cost > 12 cycles. This is 34 to 38 shifts depending on optimization or 408 > cycles minimum without the 7 16 bit adds. This is already more > than the 230 cycles. Where do you get 34 shifts from? I can see that being reduced down to about 12 shifts: /* q = (n >> 1) + (n >> 2) */ n >>= 1; q = n; n >>= 1; q += n; /* q = q + (q >> 4) */ q' = q; q' >>= 1; q' >>= 1; q' >>= 1; q' >>= 1; q += q'; /* q = q + (q >> 8) */ q'(lo) = q(hi); q(lo) += q'(lo); q(hi) += CarryFlag; /* q = q + (q >> 16) */ /* skipped because we're using 16 bits */ /* q = q >> 3 */ /* skipped because not needed */ /* r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)) */ q' = q; q' >>= 1; q' >>= 1; q += q' r = n - q; /* return q + ((r + 6) >> 4 */ r += 6; r >>= 1; r >>= 1; r >>= 1; r >>= 1; q += r; That's now 144 cycles for shifts, with 6 16 bit adds and two 8 bit adds. Now that I have access to my Z80 references (but no real Z80 to test this on), I think the following code will work: ;------------------------------------- ; DIV10 Perform division by 10 ; Entry: BC - 16 bit value ; Exit: HL - quotient ; everything else trashed. ; If you need a remainder, ; then you can do ; REM = HL - ((HL << 3) + (HL << 1)) ;------------------------------------ savehl defw 0 const6 defw 6 ; bytes cycles div10 ld d,b ; save n ; 1 4 ld e,c ; 1 4 ; q = (n >> 1) + (n >> 2) srl b ; 2 8 rr c ; 2 8 ld h,b ; 1 4 ld l,c ; 1 4 slr b ; 2 8 rr c ; 2 8 add hl,bc ; 1 11 ; q = q + (q >> 4) ld b,h ; 1 4 ld c,l ; 1 4 ld (savehl),hl ; 3 16 ld hl,savehl ; 3 10 and a ; 1 4 rrd ; 2 18 ld hl,(savehl) ; 3 16 add hl,bc ; 1 11 ; q = q + (q >> 8) ld b,0 ; 2 7 ld c,h ; 1 4 add hl,bc ; 1 11 ; q = q + (q >> 16) skipped ; q = q >> 3 skipped ; r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)) ld b,h ; 1 4 ld c,l ; 1 4 srl b ; 2 8 rr c ; 2 8 srl b ; 2 8 rr c ; 2 8 add hl,bc ; HL = q ; 1 11 ld b,h ; BC also = q ; 1 4 ld c,l ; 1 4 ex de,hl ; HL = n, DE = q; 1 4 or a ; CF = 0 ; 1 4 sbc hl,de ; n - q ; 2 15 ; return q + ((r + 6) >> 4 ld de,(const6) ; 4 20 add hl,de ; 1 11 ld (savehl),hl ; 3 16 ld hl,savehl ; 3 10 and a ; 1 4 rdd ; 1 18 ld hl,(savehl) ; 3 16 add hl,bc ; 1 11 ret ; 1 10 ;67 362 Well ... crap. 362 cycles. The Z80 really *sucks* on rotates, doesn't it? I thought the RDD instruction would help, but really, it just breaks even on the cycle count over four repetitions of SLR/RR (at least, the way I've coded it because of the bottleneck in the use of HL). -spc (Fun exercise though ... ) From spc at conman.org Sun Jan 27 03:06:33 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 04:06:33 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sean Conner once stated: > > ld b,h ; 1 4 > ld c,l ; 1 4 > srl b ; 2 8 > rr c ; 2 8 > srl b ; 2 8 > rr c ; 2 8 > add hl,bc ; HL = q ; 1 11 > ld b,h ; BC also = q ; 1 4 > ld c,l ; 1 4 > ex de,hl ; HL = n, DE = q; 1 4 > or a ; CF = 0 ; 1 4 > sbc hl,de ; n - q ; 2 15 > > ; return q + ((r + 6) >> 4 > > ld de,(const6) ; 4 20 > add hl,de ; 1 11 > ld (savehl),hl ; 3 16 > ld hl,savehl ; 3 10 > and a ; 1 4 > rdd ; 1 18 > ld hl,(savehl) ; 3 16 > add hl,bc ; 1 11 > > ret ; 1 10 I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying than the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). There doesn't even seem to be an easy way to get the stack pointer, and the only way I can see of doing it is: or a sbc hl,hl add hl,sp and no real good way of indexing the stack. Sheesh. -spc (What an ... interesting chip ... ) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 27 05:08:45 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:08:45 +0000 Subject: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1201432125.7318.13.camel@elric> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 22:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > The drive belt fro an HP9871 (daiswheel printer, the belt is about 2m > long and looks like a ladder. I am told none have survived. This is one > printer I would love to find, just to see if I can work out some alternative) I'm guessing that the rungs of the ladder go between teeth on the pulleys, and the rails of the ladder keep the belt in place? In which case, I'd get the closest matching toothed belt I could find and fit little metal end cheeks on the pulleys to stop it sliding sideways. If you were tight for space, you could probably get away with only one pulley. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 27 05:12:07 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:12:07 +0000 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <02c001c8607c$f59a7210$01fea8c0@portajara> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <01ad01c8601d$b88e49f0$01fea8c0@portajara> <02c001c8607c$f59a7210$01fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <1201432327.7318.17.camel@elric> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 21:36 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > A brand new one is super-cheap, but newer HP printers are absolute > > garbage. That LJ4+ will last practically forever. If you can find a > > junker to keep around as a source for parts, you'll be able to keep it > > running indefinitely. > > > and have (safely) stored a new fuser roller, fuser gear and "fuse" gear (the > entire gear train of the 4+ is made of metal, but ONE gear. This gear breaks > if the fuser assembly locks up or something weird happens in the gear > train). If that gear is something that breaks fairly often, make sure you keep a good one aside. There are companies who will mould up small plastic parts for a suitable fee, given one good example. We've been talking about this on one of the classic car lists I'm on, to fix a problem where little gears in the speedometer drive splitter strip their teeth and leave you with twitchy steering. Gordon From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jan 27 09:35:35 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:35:35 -0500 Subject: Tandy 2000 available Message-ID: All: I need to clear space in my shop and refocus my projects a bit. So, I?d like to divest my Tandy 2000. I bought it last year and refurbed it with a new 20mb hard drive and a second floppy drive. It has the color graphics board, 640k of RAM, a CM-1 monitor, VM-1 monitor, a few spare parts, software and books (in various conditions). The case is gleaming white ? the person I got it from must have kept it in the dark because there?s no fading/yellowing at all. I was going to use this for an emulation project but realistically, I?m not going to get to it. Contact me off-list if interested. Shipping would be from 11791 (Long Island, NY) in three or four boxes I?m guessing. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 09:40:30 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:40:30 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > From: spc at conman.org > > It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:21:56 -0500 >>> From: spc at conman.org >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: Z80 Divide by 10 >>> >>> It was thus said that the Great dwight elvey once stated: >>>> >>>> 230 clock cycles and no conditionals >>>> Dwight >>> >>> I came across this bit of code from http://www.hackersdelight.org/ to >>> divide by 10: >>> >>> unsigned int div10(unsigned int n) >>> { >>> unsigned int q; >>> unsigned int r; >>> >>> q = (n>> 1) + (n>> 2); >>> q = q + (q>> 4); >>> q = q + (q>> 8); >>> q = q + (q>> 16); >>> q = q>> 3; >>> r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)); >>> return (q + ((r + 6)>> 4); >>> } >>> >>> On the Z80, the (q>> 8) is trivial to handle, and you can probably skip >>> the (q>> 16) statement all-to-gether (since you're only handling 16 bits >>> anyway, this reduces to 0 so the statement there can be skipped). My Z80 >>> skills are pretty weak (and I don't have any references at hand right now) >>> but this looks pretty straight forward to translate. >>> >> Hi >> I coded this up in Forth and it does good at the divide. >> The values q and r are not much good, meaning one still >> has to calculate the remainder, similar to the last part of my >> code. >> The operation>> is really tough on a Z80 for 16 bit operations. >> One needs to do thing through the a register and use rra instructions >> or use the rr r instruction with a clearing of the carry before each >> single bit shift. Not having a parameterized shift like the 386 has >> makes it difficult. >> I doubt one could beat the 230 cycles I had since each shift cost >> 12 cycles. This is 34 to 38 shifts depending on optimization or 408 >> cycles minimum without the 7 16 bit adds. This is already more >> than the 230 cycles. > > Where do you get 34 shifts from? I can see that being reduced down to > about 12 shifts: Hi I hadn't done any byte swapping optimization and counted each register shift to be a shift, so each 16 bit shift cost 2 register shifts. Right shift is expensive on the Z80. It could be a little better if we had a shift that didn't include carry like the left shift. I think my routine may be extended a few bytes by changing the tweak value. It has greater effect for small values but could get one or two numbers increased if optimized. Such tweaks are there to make up for the way we truncate instead of rounding. It means the value is always too small after a large number of operation. The larger numbers are effected more by the number of times we do the shifts. Since the algorithm was designed for the maximum range, we might do better by removing one of the steps and changing the tweak value a little. This may improve you code some. Mine is already reduces to the minimum because the tweak value only effect the low end the most. Where and when in the calculation one does the tweaks my improve things as well. The rounding effect my be greatest at one step over some other step. I think us bit twittlers are enjoying the exercise. It is surely bringing back all the math I though I'd lost. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From johndraugr at soznet.net Sun Jan 27 09:57:39 2008 From: johndraugr at soznet.net (John Von Draugr) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:57:39 -0500 Subject: Tandy 2000 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479CA9F3.7030805@soznet.net> Rich, I'm interested in your Tandy 2000. I live in Yonkers, NY so I'm not too far from L.I. Shipping might not be too much from you to me. Anyhow, please get back to me if you still have the unit and no one else has already offered to take it from you. Thanks John Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I need to clear space in my shop and refocus my projects a bit. So, I?d > like to divest my Tandy 2000. I bought it last year and refurbed it with a > new 20mb hard drive and a second floppy drive. It has the color graphics > board, 640k of RAM, a CM-1 monitor, VM-1 monitor, a few spare parts, > software and books (in various conditions). The case is gleaming white ? the > person I got it from must have kept it in the dark because there?s no > fading/yellowing at all. > > I was going to use this for an emulation project but realistically, I?m > not going to get to it. > > Contact me off-list if interested. Shipping would be from 11791 (Long > Island, NY) in three or four boxes I?m guessing. > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 27 10:29:14 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:29:14 -0600 Subject: DOSBox... In-Reply-To: <479C076C.9090902@oldskool.org> References: <20080127033559.5538C5686A@mail.wordstock.com> <479C076C.9090902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080127102635.04f34d68@mail.threedee.com> At 10:24 PM 1/26/2008, Jim Leonard wrote: >Actually, Starglider 2 looks and plays better on the PC than Amiga ;) A 386 w/VGA outperforms the Amiga version. Jez San received the Order of the British Empire in 2002 for his work in computer games - the first for that industry. Now he's behind www.pkr.com . - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 27 10:49:20 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:49:20 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <02c001c8607c$f59a7210$01fea8c0@portajara> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com><01ad01c8601d$b88e49f0$01fea8c0@portajara> <02c001c8607c$f59a7210$01fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2008, at 7:36 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> A brand new one is super-cheap, but newer HP printers are absolute >> garbage. That LJ4+ will last practically forever. If you can find a >> junker to keep around as a source for parts, you'll be able to keep >> it running indefinitely. > > I already got it! Got a 4+ without fuser assembly for a song, and > throw everything away but the useful parts: Gear train, motor, power > supply, panel and have (safely) stored a new fuser roller, fuser gear > and "fuse" gear (the entire gear train of the 4+ is made of metal, but > ONE gear. This gear breaks if the fuser assembly locks up or something > weird happens in the gear train). I can make it work forever!!! > Although I'd love to have a HP5 (that is an HP4 with two very > interesting features: A "cancel job" button and the infrared comm) I hope you kept the yummy VF display module from the control panel for your microcontroller projects! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 27 10:52:32 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:52:32 -0500 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Terminals at U of Washington auction 2/2/08 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2008, at 7:48 PM, Eric Josephson wrote: >>> They're H19 terminals. The UW had lots of these back in the 80's, >>> but I'm >>> really surprised they would still have any around. They replaced >>> the ones >>> in the ACC lab with NCD X-terms in the early 90's. >> >> Do they still have the X terms? X terminals are also getting rare in >> terms of what people are using (although I guess they still work nice >> with linux boxes). > > I couldn't say; I haven't visited the UW in over sixteen years. > They had H19s all over campus, but I don't know if they replaced > them with the NCDs anywhere but the ACC. > > Are people archiving X term software? I *might* still have the boot > images and online docs for a Tek X term I owned. I have some NCD software and stuff for another (NCR?) X terminal. I can dig for it if needed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 27 11:06:26 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:06:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200801271708.MAA07665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > /* q = q >> 3 */ > /* skipped because not needed */ > > /* r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)) */ > q' = q; > q' >>= 1; > q' >>= 1; > q += q' > r = n - q; You give no justification for the algorithm change here ((q>>3)<<3 is not, in general, equal to q). Did you just test and find it worked for the argument range of interest, or what? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 27 11:29:36 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:29:36 -0500 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: You wrote: > >> Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin > connector > >> for parallel printers became standard? > > > I think it was the Centronics 770. It had severe problems though, > > Centronics had to pull it from the market and thats when Epson jumped > >into the market Ahh, the Centronics 770. When I was in high school (I graduated in 1987) the CompSci class used a very interesting system (I don't recall who made it...*might* have been SwTPC?) that ran UniFlex. It had a Centronics 770 connected to it. That thing was built like a tank, severe problems or not! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jan 27 11:44:52 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:44:52 -0800 Subject: Xerox Laser Printer parts (was RE: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong) In-Reply-To: <479B0F7A.31781.3188941A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801261800.m0QI0CpK059672@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479B0F7A.31781.3188941A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <004301c8610c$52300640$f69012c0$@com> This recent talk of LaserWriters has reminded me of the Xerox 8812 printer that I have in the garage. It's only about 10-12 years old and so just barely qualifies as "classic", but I actually want to _use_ it :-) You see, it's a B-sized laser printer and it's great for printing schematics or 8-1/2x11 pages "two up" in landscape mode. It became unreliable when age turned several of the rubber paper feed rollers and drive belts into sticky goo. None of the printer parts places seem to list the 8812 any more, so even though it's barely "classic" it's apparently "obsolete". I hate to trash it - new laser printers are really cheap these days, but true B sized printers are still pricey. Besides, I've still got a brand new, unopened, toner cartridge for it that I have to use up :-) Can anybody suggest a source for parts? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 12:58:58 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:58:58 +0000 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong In-Reply-To: <967917.60557.qm@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200801262242.m0QMg89M063579@dewey.classiccmp.org> <967917.60557.qm@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2008 4:29 AM, Bill Allen Jr wrote: > ever since i saw the belt printer used in the ibm sys > 32, i wanted to find a pc compatable one. > > do they even show up on ebay? > > anyone know of makes/models i should look for? Back in 1995 I used an IBM 3262 belt printer which was attached to an AS/400. I don't know what its native interface was, but the company I was working for had got hold of a third-party interface box that was mounted on the side of said printer and connected it to the AS/400 via twinax. Funny thing was, there was also a Centronics socket on the base of said interface unit... That unit would do 600LPM, so I was told. It was about a 1m x 1m x 1m cube, and it was *loud*. Ed. From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jan 27 13:05:51 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:05:51 -0500 Subject: Some new pics available online from the 60's about SEL Message-ID: <479CD60F.4050301@comcast.net> I added some new pics from the 60's about SEL in the gallery There's some with machines used in the glory days of NASA during the Apollo moon project Thanks to Al Kossow and Bob Rosenbloom for helping me find some of these Feel free to take a look http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery.html =Dan From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jan 27 14:09:05 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:09:05 -0500 Subject: Wave Mate Bullet boot disks Message-ID: <001501c86120$77e56830$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, Does anyone have some Wave Mate Bullet boot disks? I have one of these computers and I think it works but have no boot disks. The disks are 5.25" soft sector so all I need is an ImageDisk or TeleDisk image of your boot disk and not a physical copy. If your Wave Mate Bullet is using 8" disks those might work too. However, it would be better if you could attach a 5.25" drive and format and SYSGEN the disk, copy some CP/M files to it and make an image of it. The Wave Mate Bullet says "Microcomputer Rev C" on the motherboard. Much appreciation in advance if anyone could help me out. Thank you! Andrew Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Jan 27 14:46:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:46:10 +0000 Subject: LJ4 VFD (was Re: On collecting printers...) In-Reply-To: References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> Message-ID: <20080127204610.GA8351@usap.gov> Fellow HP printer collectors and repairers, I can't seem to find the exact message now, but in the recent thread about printer collectors, someone mentioned stripping various parts from the LJ4 series, especially the VFD. As it so happens, just today, I did just that to a printer that was going to the scrap pile (I know where the printer came from, and it is mechanically worn out - several hundred thousand pages). I play with LCD and VFD modules for the LCDproc project, and know all about the "standard" HD44780 chip used to control many, many character-based modules. We even have a few devices around the shop that used these standard modules. The LJ4, though, does not. It has a "bare" VFD, 60 pins for a 1x16 display, then the usual HV PSU components plus the 8 buttons and 3 LEDs and what looks like a Toshiba MCU, all on the same board (marked RG5-0841 and S-10437D and 3090741-01). The only connection to the board is a 10-pin 0.1" connector (like the ones used by a DEC DLV11J or a PC motherboard for serial), so presumably, it takes in +5V and has a ground connection, leaving 8 pins for some random, potentially proprietary scheme for bidirectional communication. I'm sure I could gain some minor insight to the electrical connection by poring over detailed-enough schematics (not possible at the moment because we are having problems with our ground station), but even if it turns out to be some sort of clock-and-data SPI arrangement, it wouldn't tell me anything about the software protocol to talk to the printer. I don't have a logic analyzer on hand, so monitoring the traffic to a live printer isn't going to be easily done. For those that have delved deeply into the secrets of HP LaserJet printers, is there enough documentation out there on how the front panel communicates with the rest of the printer to not have to discover everything from scratch? 1x16 VFDs are not really that expensive - compared to tens of hours of investigation, they are really quite cheap. Larger VFDs can be pricey, but even those can be had for $20 or so, if you check places like BG Micro and Electronic Goldmine a few times a year. It would be fun to talk to this printer front-panel, but without a starting point, I think it would take so much time to figure out that all my other pending projects will cut in line in front of it for the forseeable future. So if anyone knows of any suitable documentation, I'd love to hear about it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 27-Jan-2008 at 20:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -33.9 F (-36.6 C) Windchill -54.8 F (-48.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 78 Barometer 681.8 mb (10560 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 27 13:38:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:38:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: <1201432125.7318.13.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 27, 8 11:08:45 am Message-ID: > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 22:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The drive belt fro an HP9871 (daiswheel printer, the belt is about 2m > > long and looks like a ladder. I am told none have survived. This is one > > printer I would love to find, just to see if I can work out some alternative) > > I'm guessing that the rungs of the ladder go between teeth on the > pulleys, and the rails of the ladder keep the belt in place? In which I beleive that is the case. I've never actually seen the HP9871, but I've read the service manaul (excellent) on hpmuseum.net. The first thing to realise is that the mechanism is strange. It's a daisywheel printer, and the unusual it is that the motor that moves the carriage and the motor that spins the daisywheel are both on the main chassis (normally the daisywheel motor is on the carriage, of course). They both operate this (the same) toothed belt, somehow one motor moves the carriage, the other spins the daisywheel. I suspect mechanical positioning is somewhat critical! > case, I'd get the closest matching toothed belt I could find and fit > little metal end cheeks on the pulleys to stop it sliding sideways. If > you were tight for space, you could probably get away with only one > pulley. That's basically what I was thinking of doing, given that I could always make new sprockets if necessary. I'd still like to see one of the printers (I do have the interface for it to the HP9830, the interface on the printer end is 8 bit parallel, fairly Centronics-like). One did turn up on E-bay last year, but even surface mail shipping to England was too expensive so I didn't bid. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jan 27 15:32:54 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:32:54 -0000 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <4D08BFC7490D@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <003601c8612c$2e61dd40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Good news is that it all worked. I put the drive in my NetBSD VAX and > dd'd the content into a file, then FTP'd it over to the PC where I > mounted it under SIMH - I could read it just fine, however VMS 5.5 > wouldn't boot under SIMh - it reported a whole bunch of bad licenses > (not surprising) and crash/dumped almost all the way through the > boot process - I tried it a few times trying to "catch" the output > with CTRL-S to see what exactly was failing, but I was unsuccessful > (I guess I need a slower system for SIMh). If it crashes and you have a dumpfile and you've not set it up not to, then the system will store crashdump information in the dumpfile. You can then use ANALYZE/CRASH to try and work out why it died. As for the bad licences, what exactly does the message say? Once you've booted, SHOW LIC/LIST will tell you exactly what is there and LICENCE LOAD should try to load up just one of them. There could be any of a dozen issues, for example licences can be disabled, the checksum might be wrong, etc. Try loading a few and see what message comes out. Note that the output of SHOW LIC/LIST (and LICENSE LIST/FULL for that matter) will not list the licence checksum, which you need if you want to preserve a worthwhile record of an actual licence. For that you need to to do something like: $ LICENSE LIST/PROCEDURE * /OUT=MY-LICENCES.COM This will produce a command procedure that you can invoke to load up an empty licence database with your licences. As a side-effect, it disables all issued licences in your current database, so you need to enable them again. >> Pick up LDDRIVER from the OpenVMS Freeware and install. Use >> SYSGEN to create a 650MB contiguous file on your 1GB disk, tell >> LD about the file and have it map LDA1: to it. You now have >> a 650MB disk (LDA1:) that is conveniently stored on your >> disk as a file. > > I read about doing this - but what about the system disk case. > You can't boot from an LD disk can you? (I assume the LD doesn't > exist until you are booted?) If the system crash-dumps it could > wipe out the root of the drive due to the 1G wraparound. > I'd really like to be able to use my 1.09G drives as system drives > in the 3100's (next closest I have is a few RZ23's (100m). It's no good for the system disk. I use it either to produce a container file that is just the right size for a CD or to match some other disk I'm restoring. The former comes in handy for burning an ODS-2 CD or a mixed ISO9660/ODS-2 CD and the latter is useful if I have a disk from another system that I want to browse on my current box (since a disk from a real VMS system - at least from the era that I'm interested in - is likely to be 1.5GB or less, I can have a copy of said disk available as a disk on my box; then I can assign logicals etc and have it available almost exactly as it was on the original system.) > I see a difference when I boot the system from the original drive, > and the backups - this happens with BOTH the direct drive to drive > backup that I origianlly made, and also when restored from the > saveset (Both restores boot the same, which is different from the > original drive). > > Basically I'm getting a message from AUTID$SERVER saying that there > is an event (security alarms disabled) that does not occur when > booting from the original drive. > > A couple of other messages come out in a slightly different order - I > expect this is just due to asynchronous processes during startup, and > I have not verified that they always come out in this order... > > Here is an abbreviated listing of the console output during booting > the system: >> Indicates output that occurs on both Old and New drives >> Indicates output that occurs on the Old drive >> Indicates output that occurs on the New drive > > Most of the N> / O> differences are rearranged messages that I > indicated above, however the audit message occurs only on the N>ew > drive ... Can you tell me what this means, and what is different > about the restored system from the original? I can send you the > complete console boot logs if needed. FWIW, the B>, O> N> designations showed up in your email but vanished as I tried to reply. I expect Outlook mangled them and I expect it is about to do the same again in this message ... O>%MOUNT-F-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available This means what you would expect it to mean: the startup could not find some device or other. I'm guessing that when you boot the Original it was as DKA0: (SCSI ID 0) and when you booted the New one it was DKA100: (SCSI ID 1). Or some other minor difference between the Orignal and New systems. N>%NCP-I-NOINFO, No information in database N>%RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000004E You list this both for N> and O>. It is DECnet starting up. >> %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 1-JAN-2000 00:16:51.87 %%%%%%%%%%% >> Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on MAGVS8 >> Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on MAGVS8, >> system id: 1632 Auditable event: Security audit alarms >> disabled This indicates that a command during the startup changed what should and should not be audited. No idea why it would happen on N but not O. Unless there's something clever in there that decides to enable auditing but only if there's enough free space? In which case differences between the disk used for N and O would account for it. If you want to follow this up, email me the SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM procedure and we can take it from there. (BTW: I know we've had email problems before when I tried to send you some stuff to do with having tested various floppy controllers on motherboards; so if you don't hear anything back, revert to the mailing list. Or maybe get a throwaway gmail account - I'm sure my gmail will be able to talk to your gmail!). >> *** Start Configure VCP300 KL- May /93 *** This sounds like the Datability VCP300 terminal server. You might have some interesting software lying around there! Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.12/1245 - Release Date: 26/01/2008 15:45 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 27 15:47:12 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:47:12 -0500 Subject: Xerox Laser Printer parts (was RE: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong) In-Reply-To: <004301c8610c$52300640$f69012c0$@com> References: <200801261800.m0QI0CpK059672@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479B0F7A.31781.3188941A@cclist.sydex.com> <004301c8610c$52300640$f69012c0$@com> Message-ID: <200801271647.12828.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 27 January 2008 12:44, Bob Armstrong wrote: > This recent talk of LaserWriters has reminded me of the Xerox 8812 > printer that I have in the garage. It's only about 10-12 years old > and so just barely qualifies as "classic", but I actually want to > _use_ it :-) You see, it's a B-sized laser printer and it's great > for printing schematics or 8-1/2x11 pages "two up" in landscape mode. LaserJet 5si, 8000, 8100, and 8150s all can print on 11x17" media if that's good enough for you, though you may have to use the "manual feed" tray to do it (I think at least the 5si has an 11x17 capable paper tray, but don't remember about the rest). You should be able to find 5si's for the price of "please take it away", and I've been picking up 8150s for about $50 with the 2000-sheet feeder regularly. Also, they should be pretty easy to both find, and find parts for, especially compared to a Xerox laser printer. One nice thing about the 5si is that the old-style MIO network cards are just about worthless, though now you can pick up the low-end Jetdirect 810 EIO cards fairly cheaply now too. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spc at conman.org Sun Jan 27 16:16:13 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:16:13 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <200801271708.MAA07665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <200801271708.MAA07665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20080127221613.GC12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > /* q = q >> 3 */ > > /* skipped because not needed */ > > > > /* r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1)) */ > > q' = q; > > q' >>= 1; > > q' >>= 1; > > q += q' > > r = n - q; > > You give no justification for the algorithm change here ((q>>3)<<3 is > not, in general, equal to q). Did you just test and find it worked for > the argument range of interest, or what? I saw q >> 3 q << 3 And figured it wasn't needed. But you're right, it's not quite the same, but I would think that: /* q = q >> 3 */ /* shift skipped because not needed */ /* r = n - ((q << 3) + (q << 1) */ q' = q & ~3; q' >>= 1; q' >>= 1; q += q' r = n - q; But as I did the work, I found out that this wasn't all that great on a Z80 anyway, even if it did work as I wrote it. -spc From tsw-cc at johana.com Sun Jan 27 16:29:14 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:29:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: On collecting printers... Message-ID: <460295.64321.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On a previous message, dwight elvey said: > Hi > Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin connector > for parallel printers became standard? > Dwight It seems that they started using it in the mid 70's. The connector was an Amphenol 36 pin "micro-ribbon" type, one of the various sizes available. As a point of reference IEEE-488 (HPIB) standardized on a 24 pin version of the connector, and the phone company (It was called the Bell System in those days) used a 50 pin version for their cabling of telephones (25 pair cables as well). The connectors were pretty common, and worked VERY well, as the wiping contacts were ultra reliable. In the lab where I was working at the time had standardized on the 50 pin version for connecting things together (this was in the mid 60's). So, the connector has been around for quite a while. Of course, I could comment on their choice of pinouts, being as how they switched the ground return from one side of the connector to the other about 1/2 way down (what were they thinking!). The problem is that this is now standard, and nobody wants to change it. (*SIGH*). In that era of computing (electronics) many connector styles were used. Some stayed on, and others died. The "D-sub" is another style (DA-15, DB-25, DC-37, DD-50 (three row!), and DE-9). People fail to understand that the "D" is the connector style, and the letter following (A-E) is the size of the connector. When IBM went to the DE-15 connector for VGA, they might have shown some people, but it still amazes me that the 9-pin connector (properly called a DE-9) is referred to by an incorrect name (not mentioned here!). -- Sorry, No signature at the moment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 27 16:40:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:40:47 -0500 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 January 2008 00:41, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin connector > >> for parallel printers became standard? > > > > I think it was the Centronics 770. It had severe problems though, > > Centronics had to pull it from the market and thats when Epson jumped > >into the market > > -- > > Try at least 10 years earlier. > > Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) Is there a generic name for that type of connector? They've always struck me as pretty robust, and aside from the 36-pin and 50-pin (SCSI) varieties my Osborne Executive uses a 24-pin for the printer/IEEE port, and I think I've seen them as small as 10 pins or so... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 27 16:48:00 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:48:00 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <479D0A20.54C3D5E@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > I think my routine may be extended a few bytes by changing the > tweak value. It has greater effect for small values but could get one > or two numbers increased if optimized. > Such tweaks are there to make up for the way we truncate instead > of rounding. It means the value is always too small after a large number > of operation. Dwight, if my test-code version of your routine is correct, the constant correction can be reduced to 1 from 16 and the routine then fails at 1280 instead of 1210. The addition can now be changed to an increment and some other register optimisation done to take another two bytes and some cycles off (no need to use A any longer, quotient is in C): ------------------------------ Segment: MAIN base=$0000 end=$001D bytes=30 * 0-799 divided by 10 * implements: quo = ( 51*x + (51*x/256+1) ) / 512 * rem = x - (q*4+q)*2 * hl = dividend * Returns: * c = quotient * l = remainder machine z80 0000 54 Div10fast LD D,H de = hl 0001 5D LD E,L 0002 29 ADD HL,HL 0003 29 ADD HL,HL 0004 19 ADD HL,DE x * 5 0005 29 ADD HL,HL x * 10 0006 44 LD B,H bc = 10x 0007 4D LD C,L 0008 29 ADD HL,HL 0009 29 ADD HL,HL 000A 09 ADD HL,BC x * 50 000B 19 ADD HL,DE hl = x*50 + x 000C 06 00 LD B,0 bc = hl/256 000E 4C LD C,H 000F 03 INC BC + 1 0010 09 ADD HL,BC ADD little more accuracy 0011 4C LD C,H c = hl / 256 / 2 0012 CB 19 RR C quo = c, carry cleared in ADD 0014 60 LD H,B hl = quo 0015 69 LD L,C 0016 29 ADD HL,HL quo*10 to calc RemainDEr 0017 29 ADD HL,HL 0018 09 ADD HL,BC 0019 29 ADD HL,HL 001A EB EX DE,HL 001B ED 52 SBC HL,DE rem = l 001D C9 RET ------------------------------ From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 27 16:54:05 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200801271754.05661.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 January 2008 10:40, dwight elvey wrote: > I think us bit twittlers are enjoying the exercise. It is surely > bringing back all the math I though I'd lost. I've not contributed much to this thread, but I *am* enjoying the reading of it, particularly when more than one way of attacking the problem with various tradeoffs in mind get into the mix. :-) Just FWIW... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 27 17:14:35 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:14:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> > > Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Is there a generic name for that type of connector? "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 27 17:35:24 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:35:24 -0800 Subject: The Centronics connector References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479D153B.64ECDF68@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Is there a generic name for that type of connector? > > "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" The mini style was preceded by a larger style dating back to the late 50's. I believe the original intent (the wedge shape) was for plug-in modules: both genders were panel mount, one gender had a mounting that permitted it to float around about 1/16 inch, so the two halves would self-align when the module was plugged in. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Jan 27 18:10:31 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:10:31 +0000 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479D1D77.2070700@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>Is there a generic name for that type of connector? > > "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" I thought it was "Amphenol 57 Series". -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 27 18:08:45 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:08:45 -0500 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200801271908.46099.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 January 2008 18:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Is there a generic name for that type of connector? > > "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" They the only ones that make it? (Trying to remember if I've ever seen them in any other color...) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 27 18:56:08 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:56:08 -0500 Subject: LJ4 VFD (was Re: On collecting printers...) In-Reply-To: <20080127204610.GA8351@usap.gov> References: <362332.15026.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <479BF238.9050802@saw.net> <20080127204610.GA8351@usap.gov> Message-ID: <29b711ccdefa3e157dbe44fecc0327f1@neurotica.com> On Jan 27, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I can't seem to find the exact message now, but in the recent thread > about > printer collectors, someone mentioned stripping various parts from the > LJ4 > series, especially the VFD. That was me. I *love* VFDs for the way they look; I've used them (mostly the 44780-interface-compatible ones) in many different projects. > As it so happens, just today, I did just that > to a printer that was going to the scrap pile (I know where the printer > came from, and it is mechanically worn out - several hundred thousand > pages). I play with LCD and VFD modules for the LCDproc project, and > know > all about the "standard" HD44780 chip used to control many, many > character-based modules. We even have a few devices around the shop > that > used these standard modules. The LJ4, though, does not. It has a > "bare" > VFD, 60 pins for a 1x16 display, then the usual HV PSU components plus > the 8 buttons and 3 LEDs and what looks like a Toshiba MCU, all on the > same > board (marked RG5-0841 and S-10437D and 3090741-01). That's a bummer. :-( Bare VFDs aren't terribly difficult to drive, but logic-interfaced ones aren't difficult to find. > For those that have delved deeply into the secrets of HP LaserJet > printers, > is there enough documentation out there on how the front panel > communicates > with the rest of the printer to not have to discover everything from > scratch? > 1x16 VFDs are not really that expensive - compared to tens of hours of > investigation, they are really quite cheap. Larger VFDs can be > pricey, but > even those can be had for $20 or so, if you check places like BG Micro > and > Electronic Goldmine a few times a year. I bought three very, very nice 4x40 displays for about fifty bucks a couple of months ago; I thought that was a steal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 27 20:59:30 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:59:30 -0700 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:58:18 -0800. <479B90DA.7831.3381EF7A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <479B90DA.7831.3381EF7A at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I briefly had a Diablo dot-matrix printer--the carriage servo could > crush your hand if you were stupid enough to put it in the wrong > spot. I knew a guy that wrote an "alarm" program. He would be there late at night working on the LA-36. When he felt sleepy, he would run his alarm program. It would move the carraige on the LA-36 to column 132 and wait. At the requested time it would beep several times. If you didn't press return, it would print a carraige return, bringing the print head to the left hand margin again. He would sleep with his hand in the printing area and if the beep didn't wake him up, the print head slamming into his hand would do it :-). (I am *not* making this up!) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 27 21:08:47 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:08:47 -0700 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:29:14 -0800. <460295.64321.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <460295.64321.qm at web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Tom Watson writes: > When IBM went to the DE-15 connector for VGA, they might have shown some > people, but it still amazes me that the 9-pin connector (properly called a > DE-9) is referred to by an incorrect name (not mentioned here!). Yes, yes, and people still equate "PC" with "IBM PC or compatible". Give it up, its a pointless battle to fight. I'll say DB-9 and everyone will understand what I mean. If I say DE-9 people (except for a few cabling geeks) will look at me confused. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 27 21:32:35 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:32:35 -0800 Subject: The Centronics connector References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> <479D1D77.2070700@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <479D4CD2.C064F1C1@cs.ubc.ca> John Honniball wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>Models 101 and 306 used them (early 70's) > > > > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > >>Is there a generic name for that type of connector? > > > > "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" > > I thought it was "Amphenol 57 Series". I suspect "Blue-Ribbon" may be the name of the original larger style, and "Micro-Ribbon" is the name of the smaller style more popular now-a-days. If that's correct, the plug-in input modules for 60's-era tube Tekky scopes (for example) used a Blue-Ribbon connector, while the Centronics connector is a Micro-Ribbon connector. Going fom the Amphenol web-site, 57 series appears to be either a synonym for the Micro-Ribbon series or a subset of the Micro-Ribbon series. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 27 21:36:50 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:36:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 Message-ID: Under what conditions can a 27256 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 27 21:37:49 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:37:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, but I have lots of the former. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Jan 27 21:43:42 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:13:42 +1030 Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1201491822.7888.4.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Ground the extra address pins and write the data to the lowest 8k of the ROM. They are pins 1 and 26. Make sure the grounded pins aren't attached to anything else on the circuit. Alexis. On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 19:37 -0800, David Griffith wrote: > Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a > schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, but I have lots > of the former. > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 27 21:51:11 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:51:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 In-Reply-To: <1201491822.7888.4.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> References: <1201491822.7888.4.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Alexis wrote: > On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 19:37 -0800, David Griffith wrote: > > Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a > > schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, but I have lots > > of the former. > Ground the extra address pins and write the data to the lowest 8k of the > ROM. They are pins 1 and 26. > > Make sure the grounded pins aren't attached to anything else on the > circuit. I see 1 is Vpp (which won't be used anyhow). The extra address pins are 26 and 27. Am I right? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From unr00ster at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 21:54:19 2008 From: unr00ster at gmail.com (UnR00ster) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:54:19 -0700 Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 References: Message-ID: <00878A11FA14459D912A26BCC213078E@Isolde> See Ray Carlsen's site http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/ http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/eprompla.txt adapters http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/uwweb/EPROM/2x256.gif and http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/uwweb/EPROM/2x128.gif This is all for Commodore stuff, but the idea of using a modified socket and 512K chip should work for you as well. You can even use it to store the OEM code and any 'hacked' code you have. Good luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 8:37 PM Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 > > Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a > schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, but I have lots > of the former. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Jan 27 21:54:42 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:24:42 +1030 Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 In-Reply-To: References: <1201491822.7888.4.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <1201492482.7888.7.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 19:51 -0800, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Alexis wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-01-27 at 19:37 -0800, David Griffith wrote: > > > Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a > > > schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, but I have lots > > > of the former. > > > Ground the extra address pins and write the data to the lowest 8k of the > > ROM. They are pins 1 and 26. > > > > Make sure the grounded pins aren't attached to anything else on the > > circuit. > > I see 1 is Vpp (which won't be used anyhow). The extra address pins are > 26 and 27. Am I right? > Sorry I was looking on the wrong section of my chart. Yes it is 26 and 27. *embarrassed* Alexis. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 27 22:14:10 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:14:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127221613.GC12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <200801271708.MAA07665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20080127221613.GC12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200801280414.XAA11513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I saw > q >> 3 > q << 3 > And figured it wasn't needed. But you're right, it's not quite the > same, but I would think that: [...] > q' = q & ~3; & ~7... :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jan 27 22:17:57 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 In-Reply-To: <00878A11FA14459D912A26BCC213078E@Isolde> References: <00878A11FA14459D912A26BCC213078E@Isolde> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, UnR00ster wrote: > See Ray Carlsen's site > > http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/ > > http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/eprompla.txt > > adapters > > http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/uwweb/EPROM/2x256.gif > > and > > http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/uwweb/EPROM/2x128.gif > > This is all for Commodore stuff, but the idea of using a modified socket and > 512K chip should work for you as well. You can even use it to store the OEM > code and any 'hacked' code you have. Good luck. Interesting. This makes me think it would be better to use those extra address lines to bank-switch alternate firmwares. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 22:19:22 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:19:22 -0800 Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: <460295.64321.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <460295.64321.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:29:14 -0800> From: tsw-cc at johana.com> To: cctech at classiccmp.org> CC: > Subject: RE: On collecting printers...> > On a previous message, dwight elvey said:> > > Hi> > Does anyone know which Centronix ( sp?) printer the 36 pin connector> > for parallel printers became standard?> > Dwight> > It seems that they started using it in the mid 70's. The connector was an> Amphenol 36 pin "micro-ribbon" type, one of the various sizes available. As a> point of reference IEEE-488 (HPIB) standardized on a 24 pin version of the> connector, and the phone company (It was called the Bell System in those days)> used a 50 pin version for their cabling of telephones (25 pair cables as well).> The connectors were pretty common, and worked VERY well, as the wiping> contacts were ultra reliable. In the lab where I was working at the time had> standardized on the 50 pin version for connecting things together (this was in> the mid 60's). So, the connector has been around for quite a while.> Hi The oldest I have is an Epson belt printer. It is older than my Cnetronix 306 ( or is that 603, I forget ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Jan 27 22:32:45 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:02:45 +1030 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's Message-ID: <1201494765.7888.43.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, I'm working on an Z80 MP/M II server for my 8080 CP/M computer and I have been designing a MMU for it. I thought I'd post it here because it could be useful to other builders or better still to talk about any flaws or improvements. The circuit diagram is here: http://kaput.homeunix.org/~thrashbarg/MMU.png Configured like that it is capable of accessing 256kB of RAM with write protection, or 512kB without write protection by using the 'Mem WE' output as an address line. The logical address range is divided up into 2kB pages, where those pages can be of any 2kB page in the physical address range. It's more of a Memory Mapping Unit than a Memory Management Unit. MP/M II needs to remain resident in the highest 13kB of RAM so having the write protection will prevent any runaway processes from crashing the system. 50kB of RAM can be made available to the running program. Pages can be duplicated in the logical address range, so if a process only uses say 4kB of RAM only three pages need to be allocated to it, two for the program itself and one to fill the rest of memory. There may be a need to have a table on disk to tell the OS how many pages to allocate, because a program may use less space on disk than what it requires in memory. The Process ID is determined by the 74174 to the left of the SRAM. When the process changes the 2kB bank making the switch must not change or the program will be moved and probably crash. In MP/M II this wont be an issue because the system bank isn't supposed to move. In this configuration there is a total of 64 processes, 63 if you don't include the system as a process. When an interrupt occurs it clears the PID register to zero so the system can be called to service the interrupt request. The 74175 to the far left controls the MMU and ROM. The ROM is enabled after a reset and the MMU is disabled. This is done by deactivating the left CS of the RAM and connecting the upper address bits of the CPU directly to memory. The remaining two or three address lines should be tied high with resistors, or even connected to the 74LS244 with those inputs tied to +5 or Ground. The tricky element is the 2kB dual port SRAM. I found two of them on an old arcade game board. This lets the CPU program the mapping of memory without having to implement a messy multiplexing system. To program a bank an 11-bit address is loaded into ports F9h and FAh, then the desired bank is programmed to port F8h. The lowest 5 bits of the address selects the desired 2kB page the CPU will access and the remaining 6 digits determine the PID. Maybe they should be split up so one port selects the page and the other selects the PID. Maybe someone can use this? I haven't looked deeply into the MP/M II XIOS requirements so I may have left something out that it needs so is anyone familiar with the XIOS? Cheers, Alexis. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 22:37:09 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:37:09 -0800 Subject: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: <1201432125.7318.13.camel@elric> References: <1201432125.7318.13.camel@elric> Message-ID: > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:08:45 +0000 > Subject: Ladder-shaped belt > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 22:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >> The drive belt fro an HP9871 (daiswheel printer, the belt is about 2m >> long and looks like a ladder. I am told none have survived. This is one >> printer I would love to find, just to see if I can work out some alternative) > > I'm guessing that the rungs of the ladder go between teeth on the > pulleys, and the rails of the ladder keep the belt in place? In which > case, I'd get the closest matching toothed belt I could find and fit > little metal end cheeks on the pulleys to stop it sliding sideways. If > you were tight for space, you could probably get away with only one > pulley. > > Gordon > Hi I'd check with palces like Motion Industries, here in the states. I've used some ladder belt drive pullies in the past for projects. You might find that it is a standard pitch, available from one of their suppliers. They may have changed there name but when I was getting such things that was their name. They carried stuff by Boston Gears as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 27 23:23:17 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:23:17 -0800 Subject: Fast 8Kx2 ROM replacement Message-ID: <479CF645.31339.23B64E5@cclist.sydex.com> I don't have the message archives, but I don't think that anyone mentioned the Cypress CY22016L NVSRAM using QuantumTrap technology. Pretty cool stuff; very fast SRAM backed by NV RAM; at power-up, the SRAM is loaded from the nonvolatile store; at power-down, it's written (optionally and probably not needed for this application). The "juice" for the optional write-back on power-down is guaranteed by at least a 68 uF capacitor. The SRAM has access times of 25, 35 or 45 nsec. and unlimited writes. The NV RAM is guaranteed for 1,000,000 writes. It's a 5V part and comes in a 28-pin SOIC, so it'd fit nicely on a small PCB that'd fit the outline of a 24 pin PDIP. Here's the datasheet: http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/ contents/cy22e016l_8.pdf This family comes in sizes ranging from the 2Kx8 just mentioned to a 512Kx8/256Kx16 item. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 27 23:42:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:42:44 -0800 Subject: the non-existence of printer collectors In-Reply-To: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479CFAD4.14978.24D3458@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:59:30 -0700 > From: Richard > I knew a guy that wrote an "alarm" program. He would be there late > at night working on the LA-36. When he felt sleepy, he would run his > alarm program. It would move the carraige on the LA-36 to column 132 and > wait. At the requested time it would beep several times. If you didn't > press return, it would print a carraige return, bringing the print head to > the left hand margin again. He would sleep with his hand in the printing > area and if the beep didn't wake him up, the print head slamming into his > hand would do it :-). On that Diablo dot-matrix, it wouldn't just wake him up, it'd probably send him to the ER with some fractures. I think the carriage servo was run from either 48 or 24VDC. I've still got a spare from a Durango printer (same design people). It's basically a 48v Litton Clifton PM DC motor with an attached encoder. I was told that it cost more than the rest of the mechanicals on the printer combined. The other odd thing with the Diablo was that it used several early Rockwell MPUs (at least more than one). PPS-8 or PPS-4, perhaps? I remember seeing and using a really oddball printer in the early 70's from Singer-Friden. It used a disc type element oriented vertically and perpendicular to the paper surface, a leadscrew for advancing the carriage and a big honking spring for carriage return. The type element was inked by means of a felt pad (no ribbon) and tended to leave nice vertical ink stains on the paper when not printing. Very similar to that used on the Singer-Friden 115x calculators, but scaled up for 14" tractor-feed paper: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1152.html When the project shut down, the call came down for the lot to be scrapped, but a co-worker arranged for one to "disappear" off the loading dock. I don't know if he ever pressed it into use. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 01:08:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:08:54 -0800 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:32:35 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > > I thought it was "Amphenol 57 Series". > > I suspect "Blue-Ribbon" may be the name of the original larger style, and > "Micro-Ribbon" is the name of the smaller style more popular now-a-days. > > If that's correct, the plug-in input modules for 60's-era tube Tekky > scopes (for example) used a Blue-Ribbon connector, while the Centronics > connector is a Micro-Ribbon connector. Going fom the Amphenol web-site, 57 > series appears to be either a synonym for the Micro-Ribbon series or a > subset of the Micro-Ribbon series. I've heard the telco variety also called "Champ" connectors. You used to see a lot of them used to connect desk sets (e.g. 2565) to a PBX or 1A2 KSUs. Also known as an RJ21 connector. The 36-pin Centronics as well as the 24-pin GPIB variety are both members of the Amphenol "Micro ribbon" family. The same 50-position connector type was used quite a bit for connecting SCSI-I devices. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Mon Jan 28 01:26:33 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:26:33 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <200801280414.XAA11513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <200801271708.MAA07665@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20080127221613.GC12168@brevard.conman.org> <200801280414.XAA11513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20080128072633.GE12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > I saw > > q >> 3 > > q << 3 > > And figured it wasn't needed. But you're right, it's not quite the > > same, but I would think that: > [...] > > q' = q & ~3; > > & ~7... :-) Um ... yeah. I was thinking "three bits" and well ... -spc (I got confused by all those threes ... ) From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sun Jan 27 10:58:13 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:58:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <1170.217.225.95.228.1201453093.squirrel@217.225.95.228> Sean Conner said: [...] > I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying > than > the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the > instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this > particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). > There doesn't even seem to be an easy way to get the stack pointer, and > the > only way I can see of doing it is: > > or a > sbc hl,hl > add hl,sp > > and no real good way of indexing the stack. Move HL to IX or IY on the Z80 and you can have normal indexing. No autoincrement and -decrement though, so no real push/pop and IX,IY are just index registers, not stacks. -- Holger From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Jan 28 05:16:04 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:16:04 -0000 Subject: Ladder-shaped belt References: <200801271704.m0RH4Jmg076099@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <019a01c8619f$2c8bc170$911ca8c0@mss.local> Is the ladder belt a belt or a chain ? I have seen metal chains in the "ladder" format, each "rung" looped to the next, could be extended or shortened very easily, used to be used on model cars a lot for the four wheel drive. HPC Gears have plastic ladder chain http://www.hpcgears.com/newpdf/ladder_chain.pdf and plastic chain http://www.hpcgears.com/newpdf/ladder_chain.pdf is that the sort of thing ? Mike > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:08:45 +0000 > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Subject: Ladder-shaped belt > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <1201432125.7318.13.camel at elric> > Content-Type: text/plain > > > On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 22:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > >> The drive belt fro an HP9871 (daiswheel printer, the belt is about 2m >> long and looks like a ladder. I am told none have survived. This is one >> printer I would love to find, just to see if I can work out some >> alternative) > > I'm guessing that the rungs of the ladder go between teeth on the > pulleys, and the rails of the ladder keep the belt in place? In which > case, I'd get the closest matching toothed belt I could find and fit > little metal end cheeks on the pulleys to stop it sliding sideways. If > you were tight for space, you could probably get away with only one > pulley. > > Gordon > > From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 28 07:59:48 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:59:48 -0500 Subject: 27256 in place of a 2764 In-Reply-To: <1201491822.7888.4.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> References: Message-ID: <43C6C2E6D16@dunfield.com> > > Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a > > schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, but I have lots > > of the former. > Ground the extra address pins and write the data to the lowest 8k of the > ROM. They are pins 1 and 26. > > Make sure the grounded pins aren't attached to anything else on the > circuit. Basically the extra two address lines come from: Pin 27 was PGM on 2764 is A14 on 27256 Pin 26 was N/C on 2764 is A13 on 27256 These pins are *supposed* to be tied to +5 on a 2764 socket. Pin 27 is tied high as per specs on the chip, and this is usually the case. Pin 26 is tied high for backward compatibility with 24 pin parts, and this is not always implemented, sometimes it's N/C, sometimes it's grounded. Check your board and if this is the case (pins 26 and 27 tied high) you can use a 27256 without any cuts/straps by programming your code into the TOP 8K of the device. If pin26 is grounded, you can put the code at the 3/4 boundary $6000) - Or you can do what I often do and simply program it 4 times at all 8k blocks. If you have to cut/strap, consider putting in jumpers or a DIP switch which lets you have 4 "virtual EPROMS" which you can select. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 28 08:17:40 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:17:40 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <003601c8612c$2e61dd40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <4D08BFC7490D@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44C847B236E@dunfield.com> Hi, renamed SYSTARTUP_V5.COM on a copy of the disk under SIMH and without it it does boot - so it's definately something in the startup files that crashing it. I didn't get LICENSE LIST/PROC to work, but I found LICENSE ISSUE/PROC which I think is what you intended. I extracted the license and was surprised to discover that there's no hardware ID in them - so I dug a bit deeper and discovered SHOW LICENSE/CHARGE which indicates to me that SIMH is simulating a VAXserver which does not permit VAXstation licenses - the VAX-VMS 5.5 license indicates that it's 'D' (VAXstation). This is probably why it will not activate. I have another big (5.25") drive with VMS 5.4-1 on it. I can boot it but it requests for other drives to be mounted and can't go any further. It's got a LOT of stuff on it. I have trouble mounting it under OpenVMS7.2 because it keeps going offline and then remounting with mount verification - I don't know why it does this. I did manage to copy off the license .LDB file and used license issue/proc * /DATA=file to extract the license data from it. There are a total of 490 licenses installed on it! I can send you the list if you want to see if there's anything on there of interest/worth trying to recover. It has an unrestricted VAX-VMS license - I hoped I might be able to use it for the VMS 5.5 under SIMH, however it complains about the product release date - apparently it's not valid for a newer version of VMS. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 28 08:23:34 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:23:34 -0500 Subject: Backing up VAX/VMS? In-Reply-To: <44C847B236E@dunfield.com> References: <003601c8612c$2e61dd40$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <4522EBD5A86@dunfield.com> > Hi, > > renamed SYSTARTUP_V5.COM on a copy of the disk under SIMH > and without it it does boot - so it's definately something > in the startup files that crashinh That was supposed to be off-list. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 28 08:28:08 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:28:08 -0500 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's In-Reply-To: <1201494765.7888.43.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <200801281428.m0SESBFW005521@keith.ezwind.net> I think you will find that 13k is not enough common memory. You will find working with a 16k common and a 48k user segments will give you much more flexability when building your XIOS. Even with 16k bios space is tight if you include much in the way of drivers for the I/O, On several ocasions I have bumped the 16k boundery with HD, Floppy, and multi console I/O devices. FYI, a morrow HD controler, floppy controler, memory mapped video controler for console, a 4 port buffered serial controller for terminals, and 2 printer drivers using Prn and Aux just fit in 16k with less than 200 bytes free. 16k common system and 5 48k user segments fit nicely in 256k of memory by mapping the 3 extra 16k top segments into the 5th 48k user segment. I made a living writing XIOS's in the early 80's and saw a wide range of bank switching systems in the day. later Bob Dont forget the base 100 bytes or so at the base of each user space is reserved as XIOS work space and jump table. On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:02:45 +1030, Alexis wrote: >Hi, >I'm working on an Z80 MP/M II server for my 8080 CP/M computer and I >have been designing a MMU for it. I thought I'd post it here because it >could be useful to other builders or better still to talk about any >flaws or improvements. >The circuit diagram is here: >http://kaput.homeunix.org/~thrashbarg/MMU.png >Configured like that it is capable of accessing 256kB of RAM with write >protection, or 512kB without write protection by using the 'Mem WE' >output as an address line. The logical address range is divided up into >2kB pages, where those pages can be of any 2kB page in the physical >address range. It's more of a Memory Mapping Unit than a Memory >Management Unit. >MP/M II needs to remain resident in the highest 13kB of RAM so having >the write protection will prevent any runaway processes from crashing >the system. 50kB of RAM can be made available to the running program. >Pages can be duplicated in the logical address range, so if a process >only uses say 4kB of RAM only three pages need to be allocated to it, >two for the program itself and one to fill the rest of memory. There may >be a need to have a table on disk to tell the OS how many pages to >allocate, because a program may use less space on disk than what it >requires in memory. >The Process ID is determined by the 74174 to the left of the SRAM. When >the process changes the 2kB bank making the switch must not change or >the program will be moved and probably crash. In MP/M II this wont be an >issue because the system bank isn't supposed to move. >In this configuration there is a total of 64 processes, 63 if you don't >include the system as a process. When an interrupt occurs it clears the >PID register to zero so the system can be called to service the >interrupt request. >The 74175 to the far left controls the MMU and ROM. The ROM is enabled >after a reset and the MMU is disabled. This is done by deactivating the >left CS of the RAM and connecting the upper address bits of the CPU >directly to memory. The remaining two or three address lines should be >tied high with resistors, or even connected to the 74LS244 with those >inputs tied to +5 or Ground. >The tricky element is the 2kB dual port SRAM. I found two of them on an >old arcade game board. This lets the CPU program the mapping of memory >without having to implement a messy multiplexing system. >To program a bank an 11-bit address is loaded into ports F9h and FAh, >then the desired bank is programmed to port F8h. The lowest 5 bits of >the address selects the desired 2kB page the CPU will access and the >remaining 6 digits determine the PID. Maybe they should be split up so >one port selects the page and the other selects the PID. >Maybe someone can use this? I haven't looked deeply into the MP/M II >XIOS requirements so I may have left something out that it needs so is >anyone familiar with the XIOS? >Cheers, >Alexis. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 09:05:32 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:05:32 -0800 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's In-Reply-To: <200801281428.m0SESBFW005521@keith.ezwind.net> References: <1201494765.7888.43.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> <200801281428.m0SESBFW005521@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi One thing that is worth doing that I've seen done on a Z8000 system is to map instruction memory into a different area of physical memory than the data memory. I don't recall but I think there is status information from the Z80 about what type of fetch or store is being done. The idea is that you are not limited to 64K. One could get close to 128K on a Z80 at any one time. If all the instruction was ROM, there would be no need to have only ROM in that space for data memory. It could be saved as useful data memory. You couldn't have data tables in the ROM but that could be handled by bank switches if needed. Just a thought Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 09:09:18 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:09:18 -0800 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com >> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:32:35 -0800 >> From: Brent Hilpert > >>> I thought it was "Amphenol 57 Series". >> >> I suspect "Blue-Ribbon" may be the name of the original larger style, and >> "Micro-Ribbon" is the name of the smaller style more popular now-a-days. >> Hi Things seem to have drifted a little. It is the wire combination that I'm interested in. I'm aware that the connector was there before the printer. It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been the first. What type of printer was that? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 11:44:22 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:44:22 -0600 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <479E1476.7040307@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The time came to replace the OPC drum in one of these--after pricing > the remanufactured ones and checking the deals on eBay, it turned out > not to be practical. I found that I can get a factory refurb Brother > 5240 from Staples.com for $40 shipped. When it runs out of toner, I > can just buy another one at that price (1200 DPI, 23 PPM and most > important--a parallel interface). Well, 'not practical' covers a lot of bases. :-) Does the old printer do what you need better than a new one (build quality, interfaces, print quality, reliability)? (although you hint at some answers to that above) Does the potential to fault-fix on the older printer play a part? How does the expected lifetime if given a new drum stack up against the cost of new printer(s) (which IME don't seem to be very serviceable or built to last) How guilty do you feel about sending something which could be repaired off to landfill? > But nobody collects printers, not even vintage ones. There seems to be a healthy interest in keeping older printers going for active use, however. At the very least, try freecycling it or something rather than outright scrapping it, I'd suggest. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 12:03:05 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:03:05 -0600 Subject: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479E18D9.9060404@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sat, 2008-01-26 at 22:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> The drive belt fro an HP9871 (daiswheel printer, the belt is about 2m >>> long and looks like a ladder. I am told none have survived. This is one >>> printer I would love to find, just to see if I can work out some alternative) >> I'm guessing that the rungs of the ladder go between teeth on the >> pulleys, and the rails of the ladder keep the belt in place? In which > > I beleive that is the case. I've never actually seen the HP9871, but I've > read the service manaul (excellent) on hpmuseum.net. Interesting - I don't think I've seen a belt like that (at least not where the "non-rung" parts are open). I've seen ones with 'guide rails' in flatbed scanners and the like, of course, but not with actual gaps between the belt's teeth (which I think is what's implied here) I wonder if anyone's ever managed to make rubber widgets in the home workshop? I don't mean things like repairing tape drive wheels using heatshrink tubing, but actually making the bits from scratch using some form of solution / heat / drying / vulcanising process. Probably a horrible trial-and-error experience, and maybe impossible, but I've not come across anyone who's even attempted it... (I did try, at age 9 or so, making my own toy car tires by using a clay mould and attempting to melt down other old toy car tires. The result, as I recall, was a big mess) cheers Jules From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 12:04:59 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:04:59 +0100 Subject: Some new pics available online from the 60's about SEL In-Reply-To: <479CD60F.4050301@comcast.net> References: <479CD60F.4050301@comcast.net> Message-ID: <310f50ab0801281004k64f20b66vb4e1afc0fef991f4@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/27, Dan Roganti : > > I added some new pics from the 60's about SEL in the gallery > There's some with machines used in the glory days of NASA during the > Apollo moon project > Thanks to Al Kossow and Bob Rosenbloom for helping me find some of these > Feel free to take a look > > http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery.html > Hah, behold the "Caution: 'Firebreather on Board'" -logo found there.. ;) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 12:56:35 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:56:35 -0800 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <200801281800.m0SI0DmF090299@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801281800.m0SI0DmF090299@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479DB4E3.18223.523FDF5@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:44:22 -0600 From: Jules Richardson > Does the old printer do what you need better than a new one (build > quality, interfaces, print quality, reliability)? (although you hint at > some answers to that above) Build quality? No--I've mentioned that the Panasonic's an industrial- grade beast. Interfaces? Both have parallel; I've never used the serial or Appletalk interface on the Panasonic, which doesn't have USB. The new Brother is head-and-shoulders above the Panasonic regarding print quality; 1200 dpi vs. 300. Reliability? Hard to say at this point, although I've owned the predecessor model to the Brother for a couple of years and never had a problem. Speed? The Brother is much faster, particularly when rendering graphics; the halftones are superb. At this point, a big factor--cost of operation skews things a lot. Replacement drum and developer cartridges for the Panasonic are getting pretty dear. > How does the expected lifetime if given a new drum stack up against the > cost of new printer(s) (which IME don't seem to be very serviceable or > built to last) While I might find a NOS drum for the Panasonic on eBay for a good price, I'm also aware that the shelf life of OPC drums is finite. If I elect to purchase a remanufactured drum unit, it'll cost me more than $100 plus shipping. The Brother cost me $40 shipped. I suspect that for the shipped price of a single Panasonic drum unit, I could buy three Brothers and stash two of them away for the future. > How guilty do you feel about sending something which could be repaired off > to landfill? It wouldn't go to the landfill. I'd disassemble it and send the metal parts off to recycling and hang onto any interesting mechanicals and electronics for my hellbox. I might try freecycling it, but I saw an HP color laser recently go without a single nibble on the local Freecycle. Some old things, however well made, seem to be eclipsed by more modern technology. Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 28 12:58:22 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:58:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Making rubber/plastic parts: was: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: <479E18D9.9060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <895764.464.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jules Richardson wrote: I wonder if anyone's ever managed to make rubber widgets in the home workshop? I don't mean things like repairing tape drive wheels using heatshrink tubing, but actually making the bits from scratch using some form of solution / heat / drying / vulcanising process. Probably a horrible trial-and-error experience, and maybe impossible, but I've not come across anyone who's even attempted it... Jules I have tried to make replacement rubber rollers for a Decision Data card punch machine. I first made a mold from casting resin then filed it with silicone RTV. Almost worked. The problem was that the original part I used to make the mold with had changed shape somewhat and I did not get a symmetric part. I need to get a new replacement roller and try again (they are available, at $35 each, and the punch uses 16 of them). The RTV was a two part mix that worked well. It did have a few bubbles that next time I will remove by using a vacuum. The resin and RTV were bought from Tap Plastics. Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 14:20:39 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Things seem to have drifted a little. It is the wire combination > that I'm interested in. I'm aware that the connector was there > before the printer. > It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been > the first. What type of printer was that? ISTR that there was also a 100 ? The 101 was BIG. It was HEAVY. Substantially bigger and heavier than Laserjet -. It was fast. It was LOUD! But, it would fit into the back of a Civic hatchback. I had one sitting around for years. I took it to some of the John Craig Computer Swaps in San Jose, and siome of the "Northwest" ones in San Mateo. I could not sell it. Not for $100; not for $50; not for $20 I gave it to City College Of San Francisco in 1983? when I was doing some part-time teaching there. They stated a value of $1200! so I got a LOT more off of my taxes than I could have gotten from a sale. IF they have stopped using it by now, then it was NOT because it was worn out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 14:02:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:02:06 -0800 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's In-Reply-To: <200801281800.m0SI0DmF090299@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801281800.m0SI0DmF090299@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479DC43E.3484.55FF522@cclist.sydex.com> > From: Alexis > Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's > Maybe someone can use this? I haven't looked deeply into the MP/M II > XIOS requirements so I may have left something out that it needs so is > anyone familiar with the XIOS? (Raises hand) For MP/M and CP/M Plus, this is probably far too elaborate. It's my experience that MP/M appears to be designed around the idea of a 16K bank size. So, for 256K, you need only to be able to select 16 banks of 16K. A fairly common 74LS670 should do the trick. A 74LS610 or 612 should be more than adequate for most large-scale MP/M applications, but I understand that they're getting hard to come by. They can sometimes be found on early 286 motherboards as the DMA bank select register. (PC XTs and ATs have to perform bank-selection for DMA, as they use an 8237 DMA controller model, which is limited to 64K addressability). I made the mistake of (just before the '610 came out) designing a bank-select circuit for an 8085 product. It used a Fairchild 64x9 bipolar RAM (power-hungry and expensive) to give granularity of 1K pages. With MP/M, this was overkill. 16K would have done just fine and saved time and money. With the slow memory chips back then, making things work with the wretched 8202 DRAM controller was a real chore. I seem to recall that if you ran worst-case numbers, you could wind up with the requirement of a negative access time for the DRAM for a 5MHz 8085. Adding bank-mapping hardware in the address path didn't improve things any. The comment about separating data and address space is worth considering, but be aware that, because of deficiencies in the instruction set and for performance and space needs, 8080 self- modifying code is not uncommon. For example, consider the problem of I/O to a variable port number. SHLD-ing into the operand field of an LXI instruction to save a few cycles and bytes is also common in my experience. For what it's worth. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 14:56:19 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:56:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <479D1D77.2070700@gifford.co.uk> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> <479D1D77.2070700@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080128125227.C71346@shell.lmi.net> > > "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, John Honniball wrote: > I thought it was "Amphenol 57 Series". It very well could be (or both). I didn't know any more of the correct name than "Amphenol" until I joined this list, and purists would correct newbies calling IEEE-488 connectors and such things such as "small Centronics connectors". Prior to joining this list, I had called them "36 pin Amphenol connectors for parallel printers" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 14:58:06 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:58:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <200801271908.46099.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <479C1975.6060803@bitsavers.org> <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> <20080127151341.N28358@shell.lmi.net> <200801271908.46099.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080128125637.W71346@shell.lmi.net> > > "Amphenol Blue Ribbon" On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > They the only ones that make it? (Trying to remember if I've ever seen them > in any other color...) No. now that they are the defacto standard for small parallel port printers, every cable and/or peripheral manufacturer makes them or buys them. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Jan 28 15:00:06 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:00:06 +0000 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080128210006.GA23275@usap.gov> On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 12:20:39PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been > > the first. What type of printer was that? > > ISTR that there was also a 100 ? > > The 101 was BIG. It was HEAVY. Substantially bigger and heavier than > Laserjet -. It was fast. It was LOUD! > But, it would fit into the back of a Civic hatchback. I'm trying to remember an old tank of a Centronics-brand (not just interfaced) printer I used to have. Perhaps someone will recall from the description... Its most unique feature, to me at least, was that it had two print heads, one for columns 1-80, the second for columns 81-132. I remember it was fast, loud, and heavy (for a non-pedestal printer). I also recall that internally, the Centronics connector, which was bolted to the back of the case, wasn't soldered to the board in the bottom of the printer, it had a short cable to a 0.156" spacing edge-card, which plugged into an edge-card socket that was soldered to the board in the bottom. So... does this printer ring any bells? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 28-Jan-2008 at 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -32.3 F (-35.7 C) Windchill -53.5 F (-47.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 63 Barometer 681.1 mb (10587 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jan 28 15:10:51 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:10:51 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying than > the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the > instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this > particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). Classic 8 bit chips are all about the quirks. In the case of the Z80, the main quirk is that it's an 8080 hiding behind an assembly language designed to lure you into thinking it's orthogonal. Optimizations of these processors are all about knowing the quirks and your algorithm. Since 10 fits into a single byte, when calculating the remainder, you only need to calculate the lower byte. You know that r+6 is also always going to fit into 1 byte, so you can drop the 16 bit math in that case, too. If you stick with the 0-799 limit originally discussed, you know that the quotient is a one byte quantity with zero in the upper two bits, which may allow for further optimization. q + ((r + 6) >> 4) will always be less than 128. In this case q + ( r > 9 ) is probably faster anyway, even if you allow for the full range. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jan 28 15:10:51 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:10:51 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying than > the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the > instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this > particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). Classic 8 bit chips are all about the quirks. In the case of the Z80, the main quirk is that it's an 8080 hiding behind an assembly language designed to lure you into thinking it's orthogonal. Optimizations of these processors are all about knowing the quirks and your algorithm. Since 10 fits into a single byte, when calculating the remainder, you only need to calculate the lower byte. You know that r+6 is also always going to fit into 1 byte, so you can drop the 16 bit math in that case, too. If you stick with the 0-799 limit originally discussed, you know that the quotient is a one byte quantity with zero in the upper two bits, which may allow for further optimization. q + ((r + 6) >> 4) will always be less than 128. In this case q + ( r > 9 ) is probably faster anyway, even if you allow for the full range. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jan 28 15:11:11 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:11:11 -0500 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Things seem to have drifted a little. It is the wire combination > > that I'm interested in. I'm aware that the connector was there > > before the printer. > > It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been > > the first. What type of printer was that? > > ISTR that there was also a 100 ? > > The 101 was BIG. It was HEAVY. Substantially bigger and heavier than > Laserjet -. It was fast. It was LOUD! Funny thing... last weekend, my 15-year-old son and I saw a bunch of old computer equipment being evicted outside an office building. The marshals were still hanging around, so no picking through the stuff but, clearly visible in the pile was an old, very large, sound-proof-foam lined printer enclosure. His "What's that?" resulted in a half-hour conversation about old printers in general and how high speed dot-matrix printers in particular could sound like a saw mill. Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.13/1246 - Release Date: 1/27/2008 6:39 PM From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 15:28:52 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:28:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080128132547.N71346@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Richard wrote: > I'll say DB-9 and everyone will understand what I mean. Yep. I have a tote full of cables with DB-9 connectors. I mostly use them for serial printers. They have pins 1 through 8 and pin 20 connected (some straight through, some DTE to DTE). Pins 9 through 19, and 21 through 25 are not connected, and in many cases not present in the shell. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 15:40:04 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:40:04 -0600 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? Message-ID: <479E4BB4.7080707@oldskool.org> (Since the whole point of collecting and restoring old computers is to demonstrate and *use* them, I hope Jay will find this programming question on-topic...) I am currently in the middle of programming some vintage-era MS-DOS software that has the following requirements: - Manipulate the speaker to produce arbitrary tones - Update the screen in arbitrary locations (text mode; multiple screen pages if available) - Get single-key input from the user, including sensing keypresses from "inert" keys like shift and capslock (by themselves as well as in conjunction with other keypresses) I know how to do all of that, both high-level (DOS and BIOS calls, ANSI calls, etc.) and low-level (writing directly to b800:0000, screwing with the 8253 timer, hooking IRQ 9 and monitoring port 60h, etc.). My problem is that I'm not sure how much I can "get away" with doing things low-level and still have it work on machines that were less-than-100% IBM PC-compatible. If anyone who programmed for early IBM PC semi-compatible machines from 1981-1985 (Dave? Chuck?), I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice on what to watch out for. Obviously I'd love to code it ALL low-level, since that will result in the fastest program performance for the user, but not if it will lock out 20% or more of all clones made before 1986. For example, let's say I go completely low-level, all direct hardware access, compiling and testing on my IBM 5160 with CGA. Based on my past experience with clones, I am pretty sure of the following behavior: - IBM PC 5160: Should work perfectly - IBM PC 5150: Should work perfectly - AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24: Should work perfectly, although certain key combinations are known to "stick" without special handling - Sperry PC: Keyboard scan codes might be different? - Tandy 1000: Keyboard scan codes differ in 2 or 3 places - IBM PCjr: Keyboard scan codes are *definitely* different - DEC Rainbow: Keyboard different? Heard that display was vector-graphics based; would direct screen writes in text mode even work? - Tandy 2000: Again, wasn't the screen vector-based? ...etc. That kind of thing. I guess what I'm asking is something like, "Is it worth attempting to support 'MS-DOS only' machines made before Compaq, or were they just too goofy and limited to bother with?" Maybe a follow-up question is, "How many MS-DOS-only machines were made before 99.9% IBM PC compatibility became the norm after Compaq's example?" PS: I'm on a deadline for this project, which is why I care about wasting time trying to support four different ways of doing the same thing (like screen access, for example: 1. ansi.sys, 2. DOS calls, 3. BIOS calls, 4. direct screen writes). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 15:44:23 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:44:23 -0600 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> >> I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying than >> the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the >> instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this >> particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). Other than the goofy segment layout, what did you find "annoying" about the 8086 instruction set? I'm curious, because I'm only familiar with 6809, 8080, 8086, and 68000 and I wouldn't describe any of them as "annoying" (limited in some areas, yes, but I equate "annoying" with "making me want to physically injure the chip designers"). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 15:03:16 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:03:16 -0800 Subject: Toshiba T3100 Techref Message-ID: <479DD294.27526.597F5A5@cclist.sydex.com> I just noticed that I have a Toshiba T3100 technical reference manual on my shelf. There's no possibility that I'm going to need it. Anyone collect these beasts who's looking for such a book? No schematics, but lots of programming information. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 28 16:14:30 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:14:30 -0700 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Other than the goofy segment layout, what did you find "annoying" about > the 8086 instruction set? I'm curious, because I'm only familiar with > 6809, 8080, 8086, and 68000 and I wouldn't describe any of them as > "annoying" (limited in some areas, yes, but I equate "annoying" with > "making me want to physically injure the chip designers"). Can we just shoot the designers of the 8086 and just leave it that. !? From ccmpcpg at yahoo.de Mon Jan 28 16:12:42 2008 From: ccmpcpg at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Gr=F6ssler?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:12:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: 8" floppy connector READY signal Message-ID: <667300.85388.qm@web23313.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, I've built the 8" <--> PC adapter described on Dave Dunfield's site. It works well with an 8" drive from an Olivetti M40 system. But it doesn't work with a Shugart SA851 drive. Now, after checking the pin description in the SA851 OEM manual it seems that the SA851 uses pin #22 instead of pin #12 for READY. I haven't tried yet whether the adapter works if I change it for pin #22... I'm just asking if it's a well known fact that there appear to be different layouts of the 50pin 8" floppy connector. I was under the impression that it is quite standard. I'll probably add a switch to the adapzer to select between pin #12 and pin #22. regards, chris __________________________________ Ihr erstes Baby? Holen Sie sich Tipps von anderen Eltern. www.yahoo.de/clever From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 28 16:13:53 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:13:53 -0500 Subject: Toshiba T3100 Techref In-Reply-To: <479DD294.27526.597F5A5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <600BA96220F@dunfield.com> > I just noticed that I have a Toshiba T3100 technical reference manual > on my shelf. There's no possibility that I'm going to need it. > Anyone collect these beasts who's looking for such a book? > > No schematics, but lots of programming information. And if anyone wants it, I have a "spare" T3100e sitting here on the floor beside my desk... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 16:19:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:19:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479E4BB4.7080707@oldskool.org> References: <479E4BB4.7080707@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080128140521.C78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > I guess what I'm asking is something like, "Is it worth attempting to > support 'MS-DOS only' machines made before Compaq, or were they just too > goofy and limited to bother with?" Maybe a follow-up question is, "How > many MS-DOS-only machines were made before 99.9% IBM PC compatibility > became the norm after Compaq's example?" > > PS: I'm on a deadline for this project, which is why I care about > wasting time trying to support four different ways of doing the same > thing (like screen access, for example: 1. ansi.sys, 2. DOS calls, 3. > BIOS calls, 4. direct screen writes). ansi.sys is NOT a good approach unless you control the boot, since a significant percentage of users did NOT enable it in CONFIG.SYS DOS calls will work for ANYTHING running MS-DOS, including grossly incompatible machines, such as Victor 9000 (Sirius) BIOS calls will work for anything claiming PC compatability (and some others), but can not be counted on for machines that don't claim to be compatible. Some minor glitches may still show up. For example, the Corona and the PC CGA had different ideas what to do about the intensity attribute bit for reverse video. Direct screen writes will only work for machines claiming PC compatability ("99 44/100% copatible") But sometimes you can work around it. For example, Toshiba 300 will work with DOS and BIOS calls, but their "CGA" video memory was at B000h (the normal location for MDA). But THAT was the only change needed to get PC-WRITE to run on them. Even "100% compatible" machines had a few discrepancies. For example, it wasn't until about 1984 that IBM documented that they used the second to last byte of memory for a code identifying whether a machine was PC/XT v PC/AT. So, even Compaq failed that. Any code that presupposes the presence of the BASIC ROMs will fail on EVERYTHING except IBM. In approximately January 1982? PC-WORLD had a comparison of "compatibles". As expected, the version of XenoCopy that was hard coded to only work on the IBM PC (as part of publisher's attempt to peddle it to IBM) would only work on the IBM PC, and they dubbed it "the acid test". (I then used that as the subtitle for XenoPhobe, which was a crude compatability tester that is not still around) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 16:20:57 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:20:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" floppy connector READY signal In-Reply-To: <667300.85388.qm@web23313.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <667300.85388.qm@web23313.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080128141954.V78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, [iso-8859-1] Christian Gr?ssler wrote: > I'm just asking if it's a well known fact that there > appear to be different layouts of the 50pin 8" floppy > connector. I was under the impression that it is quite > standard. "quite standard" == less than 10% of the signals are different From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 16:31:08 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:31:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080128143037.P78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, dwight elvey wrote: > It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been > the first. What type of printer was that? http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/cent101/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 28 16:38:04 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:38:04 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy connector READY signal In-Reply-To: <20080128141954.V78533@shell.lmi.net> References: <667300.85388.qm@web23313.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20080128141954.V78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479E594C.20307@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, [iso-8859-1] Christian Gr?ssler wrote: >> I'm just asking if it's a well known fact that there >> appear to be different layouts of the 50pin 8" floppy >> connector. I was under the impression that it is quite >> standard. > > "quite standard" == less than 10% of the signals are different And if you get to keep the 'Magic Smoke' it sounds standard to me. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 16:36:36 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:36:36 -0600 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Other than the goofy segment layout, what did you find "annoying" >> about the 8086 instruction set? I'm curious, because I'm only >> familiar with 6809, 8080, 8086, and 68000 and I wouldn't describe any >> of them as "annoying" (limited in some areas, yes, but I equate >> "annoying" with "making me want to physically injure the chip >> designers"). > > Can we just shoot the designers of the 8086 and just leave it that. !? But seriously -- why? I didn't find it all that horrible -- in fact, I missed the string handling (REP MOVSW/STOSW/SCASW/etc.) on all the other platforms I mentioned. If they truly deserve to be shot, I want to know why :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 28 16:16:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:16:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <200801271740.47829.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 27, 8 05:40:47 pm Message-ID: > Is there a generic name for that type of connector? They've always struc= I believe they['re called 'Micro Ribbon' connectors. The name 'Blue Ribbon' is also used, but I think correctly refers to the larger version, used for example on Tektronix 500 series 'scope plug-ins. > k me=20 > as pretty robust, and aside from the 36-pin and 50-pin (SCSI) varieties = > my=20 > Osborne Executive uses a 24-pin for the printer/IEEE port, and I think I= > 've=20 > seen them as small as 10 pins or so... IIRC, the standard sizes are 14, 24, 36, and 50 pins. 24 pin is of course used for HPIB?GPIB/IEEE-488, 36 pin is the Cnetornics printer conenctor, and 50 pin has been used foe SCSI, etc. HP used a 64 pin version on some their stuff (e;g. the expansion unit for the Integral and the CD interface for the HP9000/200 machines), but I have never managed to find a source of those. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 28 16:19:36 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:19:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: On collecting printers... In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 27, 8 08:08:47 pm Message-ID: > I'll say DB-9 and everyone will understand what I mean. Yes, you want a B-size shell with 9 pins. I'll probaly hand you one with holes for 25 contacts, but only fit them in positions 1-8 and 20 or something :-) Sorry, this is one thing that _really_ annoys me. The connector is a DE-9, and no ammount of 'common usage' will get me to change. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 28 16:33:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:33:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: <479E18D9.9060404@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 28, 8 12:03:05 pm Message-ID: > > I beleive that is the case. I've never actually seen the HP9871, but I've > > read the service manaul (excellent) on hpmuseum.net. > > Interesting - I don't think I've seen a belt like that (at least not where the > "non-rung" parts are open). I've seen ones with 'guide rails' in flatbed > scanners and the like, of course, but not with actual gaps between the belt's > teeth (which I think is what's implied here) As I've said I've never actually seen the printer, and the scans of the service manual are not all that clear, but I believe it _does_ have holes in it between the 'rungs'. It's not a normal toothed timing belt. > > I wonder if anyone's ever managed to make rubber widgets in the home workshop? > I don't mean things like repairing tape drive wheels using heatshrink tubing, > but actually making the bits from scratch using some form of solution / heat / > drying / vulcanising process. Probably a horrible trial-and-error experience, > and maybe impossible, but I've not come across anyone who's even attempted it... There are 2-pack compounds that cure to form elastomers. The one I've heard of, but never used, is called Devcon 90. You mix the 2 parts, pour it into the mould, and leave it overnight. Once mixed, you have 30 minutes or so to use it. The problem is that you're supposed to mix and use the entire pack in one go, and the pack costs about \pounds 30.00. You also need a mould release agent and a primer (if you want the ruber to stick to anything, say you want a make a wheel on a metalhub). This gets expensive fast. I am told, though, you can mix part-packs (stir it well, and wieght out part of it), but once opened the shelf life of the _unmixed_ stuff is only a couple of months ar most. Mind you, I don't fancy tring to make a mould for this ladder belt. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 28 18:03:31 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:03:31 -0300 Subject: A sign of the times References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <479E1476.7040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara> > There seems to be a healthy interest in keeping older printers going for > active use, however. Just for one thing: They works. If my HP4+ works flawlessly, why should I buy a new printer? Toner is so cheap! :oO From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 17:08:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" floppy connector READY signal In-Reply-To: <479E594C.20307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <667300.85388.qm@web23313.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20080128141954.V78533@shell.lmi.net> <479E594C.20307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080128150719.U78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, woodelf wrote: > And if you get to keep the 'Magic Smoke' it sounds standard to me. At the third? West Coast Computer Faire, Howard Fullmer and George Morrow presented a paper attempting to standardize the S100 bus! They are both dead now, but there are now few if any non-standard S100 machines being designed. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 28 17:13:11 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:13:11 -0700 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <479E6187.6000900@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: >> Can we just shoot the designers of the 8086 and just leave it that. !? > > But seriously -- why? I didn't find it all that horrible -- in fact, I > missed the string handling (REP MOVSW/STOSW/SCASW/etc.) on all the other > platforms I mentioned. If they truly deserve to be shot, I want to know > why :-) Make a list A: 6809 B: 8086 See Answer: That is not quite fair for Intel since the 6809 came out after the 8086. The problem is you have a 16 bit design crippled so you can be 8080A software comptable. My personal bias is the pre-fetch buffer, you never know just what speed your cpu is running at. I find both the Z80 and 8086 not clean as they tweek the 8080A instruction set to something that is almost usefull. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 17:11:42 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:11:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> > > Can we just shoot the designers of the 8086 and just leave it that. !? On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > But seriously -- why? I didn't find it all that horrible -- in fact, I > missed the string handling (REP MOVSW/STOSW/SCASW/etc.) on all the other > platforms I mentioned. If they truly deserve to be shot, I want to know > why :-) Some people get rather upset at the lack of symmetry, and lack of certain instructions that might be handy, such as a load immediate into segment registers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 28 17:15:12 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <479E1476.7040307@gmail.com> <009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> There seems to be a healthy interest in keeping older printers going >> for active use, however. > > Just for one thing: They works. If my HP4+ works flawlessly, why > should I buy a new printer? Toner is so cheap! :oO And no stupid flakey driver to play with as modern I/O devices seem brain dead... let windows do all the work. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 17:16:16 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:16:16 -0600 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080128140521.C78533@shell.lmi.net> References: <479E4BB4.7080707@oldskool.org> <20080128140521.C78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479E6240.20307@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > DOS calls will work for ANYTHING running MS-DOS, including grossly > incompatible machines, such as Victor 9000 (Sirius) Since one of my requirements is manipulating the PC speaker to sound an arbitrary tone of arbitrary duration -- something that is not provided by the BIOS or MS-DOS -- should I worry about "grossly incompatible" machines? For example, does the Victor 9000 even *have* a speaker (or 8253 timer?)? > Some minor glitches may still show up. For example, the Corona and the PC > CGA had different ideas what to do about the intensity attribute bit for > reverse video. That was also an issue with the AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24 if you were using a monochrome monitor. It was monochrome CGA, but the monitor would do things like _underline_ the text based on the attribute. > But sometimes you can work around it. For example, Toshiba 300 will work > with DOS and BIOS calls, but their "CGA" video memory was at B000h (the > normal location for MDA). But THAT was the only change needed to get > PC-WRITE to run on them. Is there any way to test for that? I don't recall a BIOS call to determine the base segment of video memory, other than querying DOS (BIOS?) for the machine capabilities for either CGA or MDA... > Even "100% compatible" machines had a few discrepancies. For example, it > wasn't until about 1984 that IBM documented that they used the second to > last byte of memory for a code identifying whether a machine was PC/XT v > PC/AT. So, even Compaq failed that. Whoops :) > Any code that presupposes the presence of the BASIC ROMs will fail on > EVERYTHING except IBM. Very true. But I'm not using any of that (indeed, is there any way to use the BASIC ROM for anything other than BASIC?) > In approximately January 1982? PC-WORLD had a comparison of "compatibles". > As expected, the version of XenoCopy that was hard coded to only work on > the IBM PC (as part of publisher's attempt to peddle it to IBM) would only > work on the IBM PC, and they dubbed it "the acid test". To be fair, didn't that test only check for a string in the BASIC ROM? (ie. something that XenoCopy didn't actually use for functionality) > XenoPhobe, which was a crude compatibility tester that > is not still around That's a shame; I'd love to run it on my various compatibles and see what it displays. I'd also like to poke around the documentation (or source) to see what you were checking for and how. So, bottom line -- should I not waste my time with "MS-DOS compatible" and just go straight for BIOS calls? I'm leaning toward yes (all opinions still welcome)... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 17:26:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <479E1476.7040307@gmail.com> <009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara> <479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080128152426.W78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, woodelf wrote: > And no stupid flakey driver to play with as modern I/O devices seem > brain dead... let windows do all the work. Speaking of which, . . . my sister needs a 400K/800K Macintosh ("Classic") floppy with drivers for HP Deskwriter. Can anyone help? Sorry, that is all of the information that I have so far. I'll try to talk her through getting the model numbers. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 17:29:16 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:29:16 -0600 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479E6187.6000900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> <479E6187.6000900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <479E654C.9030801@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > My personal bias is the pre-fetch buffer, you never know just > what speed your cpu is running at. Okay, I can see that. 8086 was 6 bytes, 8088 was 4 bytes, NEC V20/V30 was 6, 80286 was 8 bytes, 80386 was 16 bytes, etc. I suppose it was good that (in the IBM PC, anyway) we had a 1.193181 MHz timer to play with, yes? At least that wasn't variable... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 17:35:46 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:35:46 -0600 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479E66D2.50609@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Can we just shoot the designers of the 8086 and just leave it that. !? > > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: >> But seriously -- why? I didn't find it all that horrible -- in fact, I >> missed the string handling (REP MOVSW/STOSW/SCASW/etc.) on all the other >> platforms I mentioned. If they truly deserve to be shot, I want to know >> why :-) > > Some people get rather upset at the lack of symmetry, and lack of certain > instructions that might be handy, such as a load immediate into segment > registers. Hm... Yeah, I guess that was a hassle. 808x you have to: MOV AX,immed MOV ES,AX or PUSH DS POP ES ...etc. Still, two instructions vs. one isn't that big a deal; I got used to it. I guess the one annoying thing with 808x is that, 80286 and later, they removed POP CS. So if you used that for tricks, it immediately dies on anything other than an 808x. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 28 17:42:42 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:42:42 -0500 Subject: The Centronics connector Message-ID: <01C861DF.20104E80@mandr71> ----------Original Message: From: Fred Cisin Subject: RE: The Centronics connector On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Things seem to have drifted a little. It is the wire combination > that I'm interested in. I'm aware that the connector was there > before the printer. > It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been > the first. What type of printer was that? ISTR that there was also a 100 ? The 101 was BIG. It was HEAVY. Substantially bigger and heavier than Laserjet -. It was fast. It was LOUD! But, it would fit into the back of a Civic hatchback. I had one sitting around for years. I took it to some of the John Craig Computer Swaps in San Jose, and siome of the "Northwest" ones in San Mateo. I could not sell it. Not for $100; not for $50; not for $20 I gave it to City College Of San Francisco in 1983? when I was doing some part-time teaching there. They stated a value of $1200! so I got a LOT more off of my taxes than I could have gotten from a sale. IF they have stopped using it by now, then it was NOT because it was worn out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ***********Reply: I used a 101 for years; great machine, similar in size & weight to the line printers I was using at Burroughs, even used a form control tape. Also as noisy; it was in a back room of the basement, connected to the CBM 8032 in my upstairs office with a 50 foot ribbon cable. Length restrictions on parallel cables? Feh! Still have the cable and many of the printouts... mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 17:54:23 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:54:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479E6240.20307@oldskool.org> References: <479E4BB4.7080707@oldskool.org> <20080128140521.C78533@shell.lmi.net> <479E6240.20307@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080128152901.S78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Since one of my requirements is manipulating the PC speaker to sound an > arbitrary tone of arbitrary duration -- something that is not provided > by the BIOS or MS-DOS -- should I worry about "grossly incompatible" > machines? For example, does the Victor 9000 even *have* a speaker (or > 8253 timer?)? PROBABLY not similar circuitry. The Victor 9000 did almost nothing the same way as PC. > > Some minor glitches may still show up. For example, the Corona and the PC > > CGA had different ideas what to do about the intensity attribute bit for > > reverse video. > That was also an issue with the AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24 if you were > using a monochrome monitor. It was monochrome CGA, but the monitor > would do things like _underline_ the text based on the attribute. That was a normal feature of MDA > > But sometimes you can work around it. For example, Toshiba 300 will work > > with DOS and BIOS calls, but their "CGA" video memory was at B000h (the > > normal location for MDA). But THAT was the only change needed to get > > PC-WRITE to run on them. > Is there any way to test for that? I don't recall a BIOS call to > determine the base segment of video memory, other than querying DOS > (BIOS?) for the machine capabilities for either CGA or MDA... INT 10h, function 0Fh returns in AL with the numeric value of what video mode is in use. 2 = B&W CGA 3 = color CGA 7 = MDA IFF sufficiently compatible (Toshiba T300 was NOT), then 2,3 mean B800h and 7 means B000h > > Any code that presupposes the presence of the BASIC ROMs will fail on > > EVERYTHING except IBM. > Very true. But I'm not using any of that (indeed, is there any way to > use the BASIC ROM for anything other than BASIC?) In the early days, it was possible to call BASIC subroutines. But, I don't think that they kept the same addresses for long. > > In approximately January 1982? PC-WORLD had a comparison of "compatibles". > > As expected, the version of XenoCopy that was hard coded to only work on > > the IBM PC (as part of publisher's attempt to peddle it to IBM) would only > > work on the IBM PC, and they dubbed it "the acid test". > To be fair, didn't that test only check for a string in the BASIC ROM? > (ie. something that XenoCopy didn't actually use for functionality) The publisher (Vertex) wanted it much more secure than that (paranoid idiots). It was a "special version" that they hoped to peddle to IBM. It clearly stated on the startup screen that it was for IBM PC ONLY, but PC-WORLD used it for their testing. So, I used the BASIC floating point accumulator for passing an argument back from a function. The publisher tested whether it would run on a generic clone with copy of IBM's BIOS (but without BASIC ROMs) By the time that I got rid of the publisher, I used DOS calls, BIOS calls, and VERY little direct hardware access (video RAM, and a little twiddling with the FDC) > > XenoPhobe, which was a crude compatibility tester that > > is not still around > That's a shame; I'd love to run it on my various compatibles and see > what it displays. I'd also like to poke around the documentation (or > source) to see what you were checking for and how. Unfortunately, the third time that my company moved (in 1988), the two totes with EVERYTHING from that never really finished program disappeared. I hadn't done anything very fancy - checking the processor, whether certain BIOS calls worked, entry locations, the presence (and CRC'd content) of ROMS, and checking a BUNCH of the segment 40h BIOS memory locations. > So, bottom line -- should I not waste my time with "MS-DOS compatible" > and just go straight for BIOS calls? I'm leaning toward yes (all > opinions still welcome)... Working with the "NON-PC-compatible" MS-DOS machines, such as DEC Rainbow, TI Proffessional, Toshiba T300, Sanyo 550?, HP 150?, Tandy 2000, Victor 9000, etc. would require major additional work for EACH one that you support. Unless you are willing to fall back to ONLY MS-DOS calls (MOV AH,2 MOV DL, 7 INT 21h to beep), etc. stick with "clones". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:35:03 2008 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:35:03 -0500 Subject: Dead IBM PC 5150 motherboard - help troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, Sorry I've been a bit mute lately .... No progress yet, but I haven't had time to try out all of the good suggestions .... Found Sams' "IBM PC Troubleshooting and Repair Guide" and Sams' "IBM PC Advanced Troubleshooting and Repair" dirt cheap on Abebooks.com, and they arrived today. Both are in great condition! I'll be going through those, and all other suggestions, and let you know the final outcome. Thanks for all the help! Rich B. From spc at conman.org Mon Jan 28 18:35:52 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:35:52 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4799BF75.28415.2C6807E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080129003552.GF12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > >> I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying > >> than > >>the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the > >>instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this > >>particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). > > Other than the goofy segment layout, what did you find "annoying" about > the 8086 instruction set? Me? I didn't find it all that odd (at least, once I realized it was better to look at the opcode map in octal instead of hex), but I do recall reading various rants against the x86 on USENET in the early to mid 90s. I did *a lot* of 8086 programming in the late 80s/early 90s, and still like revisiting it from time to time (well, assembly in general, not specifically the 8086). -spc (Man, I think I'd prefer the 6502 over the Z80 any day, and I hate the 6502 ... ) From grant at stockly.com Mon Jan 28 18:59:59 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:59:59 -0900 Subject: 6800 C compilier Message-ID: <0JVD00DZAS3UA300@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Is there a 6800 C compilier for CPM or DOS? I've been looking but can't seem to find one. If anyone knows where I could get one that would help me out a ton... Grant From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jan 28 20:14:55 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:14:55 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Some people get rather upset at the lack of symmetry, and lack of certain > instructions that might be handy, such as a load immediate into segment > registers. There certainly are problems, not the least of which is the "shift 4 and add" segmentation rather than "shift N and add" where N is 11, 12, 14, or 16. Of course 16 is the right answer now, but in 1977 there were logical reasons to want 11, 12, or 14. Never could come up with a good reason to choose 4 except to artificially limit the expansion address space to 1MB. Lack of load immediate into segment isn't a big problem. Lack of "add immediate to effective address" is a much bigger problem. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 20:35:25 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:35:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080128183333.Y78533@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Eric J Korpela wrote: > were logical reasons to want 11, 12, or 14. Never could come up with > a good reason to choose 4 except to artificially limit the expansion > address space to 1MB. "But why would anybody ever want more than 1MB of RAM?" "But, if you activate A20, then you CAN go past 1MB!" (not very far) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 20:40:38 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:40:38 -0800 Subject: The Centronics connector In-Reply-To: <20080128143037.P78533@shell.lmi.net> References: <200801280416.m0S4GLTV083052@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479D0F06.17080.29C1477@cclist.sydex.com> <20080128121304.O71346@shell.lmi.net> <20080128143037.P78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:31:08 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: The Centronics connector > > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, dwight elvey wrote: >> It looks like to the best of knowledge, the 101 may have been >> the first. What type of printer was that? > > http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/cent101/index.html > > Hi It looks similar to the 306 and most likely weights the same. It is heavier than my 4si with duplex. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 20:48:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:48:56 -0800 Subject: Making rubber/plastic parts: was: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: <895764.464.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <479E18D9.9060404@gmail.com> <895764.464.qm@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net >> > I have tried to make replacement rubber rollers for a Decision Data card punch machine. I first made a mold from casting > resin then filed it with silicone RTV. Almost worked. The problem > was that the original part I used to make the mold with had changed shape somewhat and I did not get a symmetric part. Hi Bob Instead of using a rubber one, measure the diameter and turn one with some hardwood or aluminum. You'll get a nice concentric one this way. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 28 21:32:49 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:32:49 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com><479E1476.7040307@gmail.com><009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara><479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080128152426.W78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <005201c86227$9fdb86f0$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Re: A sign of the times > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, woodelf wrote: > > And no stupid flakey driver to play with as modern I/O devices seem > > brain dead... let windows do all the work. > > Speaking of which, . . . > my sister needs a 400K/800K Macintosh ("Classic") floppy with drivers for > HP Deskwriter. Can anyone help? > Sorry, that is all of the information that I have so far. I'll try to > talk her through getting the model numbers. > > I have 3 disk images (using Diskcopy 6.3.3) for HP Deskwriter 2.2 (one is the install disk and 2 font disks), they should be 800K images or smaller. You can turn them back into floppies on most 68K/PPC machines or just mount them and install. Let me know if those will work. Actually you can just download drivers here: http://www.macdrivermuseum.net/printer.shtml From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 28 21:30:57 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:30:57 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? Message-ID: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Sellam wants to finish the 64 c64 cluster for the next VCF. I've been researching ideas for communicating among the machines, and the best ideas point to using the two synchronous serial ports on the user port (low wire count, transfers at 250kbps). But, I have grawn a complete blank on plans for a true peer to peer (token based or otherwise) networking protocol. Everything I see is master/slave. RS485 material talks about the hardware layer, but there is no detail on the protocol layer. I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for things to look into? Jim From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 21:46:23 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:46:23 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801281946i212cf4d1t6746722e479f283@mail.gmail.com> On 1/28/08, Jim Brain wrote: > Sellam wants to finish the 64 c64 cluster for the next VCF. I've been > researching ideas for communicating among the machines, and the best > ideas point to using the two synchronous serial ports on the user port > (low wire count, transfers at 250kbps). > > But, I have grawn a complete blank on plans for a true peer to peer > (token based or otherwise) networking protocol. Everything I see is > master/slave. RS485 material talks about the hardware layer, but there > is no detail on the protocol layer. > > I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low > speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for > things to look into? > > Jim > > UUCP? TCP/IP? John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jan 28 21:51:59 2008 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:51:59 +0100 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801281946i212cf4d1t6746722e479f283@mail.gmail.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <7d3530220801281946i212cf4d1t6746722e479f283@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080129035159.GL2385@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2008-01-28 22:46:23 -0500, John Floren wrote: > On 1/28/08, Jim Brain wrote: > > I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low > > speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for > > things to look into? > > UUCP? TCP/IP? Not really... Hardware is a C64. 64KB of RAM. Yes, of course, you can implement enough of IP in 64KB to make it work, bit main purpose is clustering, not building the largest wall of pingable C64 :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html the second : From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 28 22:07:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:07:12 -0800 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <200801282310.m0SN9q6a095324@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801282310.m0SN9q6a095324@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479E35F0.30160.71C1320@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:40:04 -0600 > From: Jim Leonard > - Manipulate the speaker to produce arbitrary tones > - Update the screen in arbitrary locations (text mode; multiple screen > pages if available) - Get single-key input from the user, including > sensing keypresses from "inert" keys like shift and capslock (by > themselves as well as in conjunction with other keypresses) It depends on what you want to call "MS-DOS ompatible". NEC 9801 series machines have a completely different I/O port and memory layout; the CRT controller is a world unto itself and the BIOS interface is different. But the things run MS-DOS, albeit with 1,024 byte sector diskettes, and have an x86 CPU in them--some with Intel; others with NEC V-series CPUs. I think the family went as far as a 486 equivalent. For that matter, I believe a number of configurations of the S-100 Compupro boxes could run MS-DOS. I know of other MS-DOS compatible machines that do not have memory- mapped displays but rather interface to a serial terminal (no graphics capabilities). There are others with non-PC memory layouts that will give you most of a megabyte of contiguous RAM to work with. My point is, that "MS-DOS compatible" covers a huge amount of territory. On the other hand, "something that will boot from a PC- DOS 3.31 diskette" is quite a bit more restrictive. FWIW, Chuck From spc at conman.org Mon Jan 28 22:19:51 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:19:51 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080129041951.GG12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jim Brain once stated: > Sellam wants to finish the 64 c64 cluster for the next VCF. I've been > researching ideas for communicating among the machines, and the best > ideas point to using the two synchronous serial ports on the user port > (low wire count, transfers at 250kbps). > > But, I have grawn a complete blank on plans for a true peer to peer > (token based or otherwise) networking protocol. Everything I see is > master/slave. RS485 material talks about the hardware layer, but there > is no detail on the protocol layer. > > I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low > speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for > things to look into? Each computer has two serial connections. Can you send and receive on a single "port" at the same time? Can you send and receive on both "ports" at the same time? The design of the protocol depends somewhat upon the capabilities of the ports. If you can't, then you might want something like token ring, where a "transmit" token is passed around, and any computer with the "token" can transmit. If you can send/receive without problems on either port, then just let the computers transmit at will. About the only real problem to come up is configuration---how does each computer get its address on the network? Manual configuration? Automatic? -spc (You might want to look at how AppleTalk works ... it's pretty neat how it works ... ) From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 28 22:21:29 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:21:29 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801281946i212cf4d1t6746722e479f283@mail.gmail.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <7d3530220801281946i212cf4d1t6746722e479f283@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479EA9C9.8090805@jbrain.com> John Floren wrote: > UUCP? TCP/IP? > I'm looking more for the 802.3 or 802.6 stuff. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jan 28 22:36:07 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:36:07 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <20080129041951.GG12168@brevard.conman.org> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <20080129041951.GG12168@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <479EAD37.6020902@jbrain.com> Sean Conner wrote: > Each computer has two serial connections. Can you send and receive on a > single "port" at the same time? Can you send and receive on both "ports" at > the same time? The design of the protocol depends somewhat upon the > The sync ports are unidirectional, but they can be run together, so an SPI-like bus could be created. > capabilities of the ports. If you can't, then you might want something like > token ring, where a "transmit" token is passed around, and any computer with > the "token" can transmit. If you can send/receive without problems on > either port, then just let the computers transmit at will. > On the latter, I don't understand. Who would they transmit to? How would I deal with collisions? > About the only real problem to come up is configuration---how does each > computer get its address on the network? Manual configuration? Automatic? > I cna hard code the addresses, but how does the ring/bus know when a machine is alive, etc. > -spc (You might want to look at how AppleTalk works ... it's pretty neat > how it works ... ) > I will look into it. Jim From spc at conman.org Mon Jan 28 23:04:01 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:04:01 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479EAD37.6020902@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <20080129041951.GG12168@brevard.conman.org> <479EAD37.6020902@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080129050401.GH12168@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jim Brain once stated: > Sean Conner wrote: > > Each computer has two serial connections. Can you send and receive on a > >single "port" at the same time? Can you send and receive on both "ports" > >at > >the same time? The design of the protocol depends somewhat upon the > > > The sync ports are unidirectional, but they can be run together, so an > SPI-like bus could be created. > >capabilities of the ports. If you can't, then you might want something > >like > >token ring, where a "transmit" token is passed around, and any computer > >with > >the "token" can transmit. If you can send/receive without problems on > >either port, then just let the computers transmit at will. > > > On the latter, I don't understand. Who would they transmit to? How > would I deal with collisions? Since each computer is connected to two others, you end up with a ring configuration (small example here): A -- B -- C -- D | | E L | | F K | | G -- H -- I -- J What I meant was that if A could transmit and receive from B and E at the same time, then no tokens (more on that in a bit) are needed. Say, A wants to talk to D; to do so, it needs to send a packet to B, which will then forward it to C, which will forward it to D. Since the links are bidirectional (in this hypothetical situation) A can talk to B or E at any time. If the links are unidirectional, then there has to be some way for A to signal B that it has a packet to send its way---that is, if B isn't already sending a packet to A. But first, you need to solve this situation: A -- B (a very simple network). A and B want to send each other a packet, at the same time. How is this resolved? How you resolve this dictates the final format of your protocol. > > About the only real problem to come up is configuration---how does each > >computer get its address on the network? Manual configuration? > >Automatic? > I cna hard code the addresses, but how does the ring/bus know when a > machine is alive, etc. Well, how does A know that its neighbor B is up? Just how many wires go between A and B? -spc (From the sound of it, it sounds like the answer is "one" ... ) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 28 23:09:25 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:09:25 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com> <479E1476.7040307@gmail.com> <009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara> <479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <071302CE-61F3-4E9D-A4E3-5C696EC59A8D@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2008, at 6:15 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> There seems to be a healthy interest in keeping older printers >>> going for active use, however. >> Just for one thing: They works. If my HP4+ works flawlessly, >> why should I buy a new printer? Toner is so cheap! :oO > And no stupid flakey driver to play with as modern I/O devices seem > brain dead... let windows do all the work. Fortunately that kind of crap seems to be on the wane. Good thing, too...I've got better things for my CPUs to be doing than rasterizing for crappy printers and doing DSP for crappy modems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 28 23:20:17 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:20:17 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <479EB791.8040706@oldskool.org> Jim Brain wrote: > I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low > speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for > things to look into? I would research Appletalk, and also -- don't laugh -- the Atari Lynx. The Lynx could round-robin 8 units nicely with very little latency on a serial link slower than yours. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 28 23:47:25 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:47:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <005201c86227$9fdb86f0$c600a8c0@game> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com><479E1476.7040307@gmail.com><009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara><479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080128152426.W78533@shell.lmi.net> <005201c86227$9fdb86f0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20080128213726.Y99849@shell.lmi.net> > > Speaking of which, . . . > > my sister needs a 400K/800K Macintosh ("Classic") floppy with drivers for > > HP Deskwriter. Can anyone help? > > Sorry, that is all of the information that I have so far. I'll try to > > talk her through getting the model numbers. On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Teo Zenios wrote: > I have 3 disk images (using Diskcopy 6.3.3) for HP Deskwriter 2.2 (one is > the install disk and 2 font disks), they should be 800K images or smaller. > You can turn them back into floppies on most 68K/PPC machines or just mount > them and install. > Let me know if those will work. > Actually you can just download drivers here: > http://www.macdrivermuseum.net/printer.shtml Thank you, I appreciate the willingness to help. The current problem is a bit embarrassing - I can download the software, but right now I don't have access to anything that can write 400K/800K Mac disks! . . . and HP no longer sells those files on diskette. So, once I can get enough information to narrow down exactly which files, I'll just need local access to an early enough Mac, or work by snail mail with somebody competent to write them. (talking my sister through connecting her Mac to the net or transferring files is not feasable.) Thanks From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 29 00:19:35 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:19:35 -0500 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's In-Reply-To: <479DC43E.3484.55FF522@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801281800.m0SI0DmF090299@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479DC43E.3484.55FF522@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4875F97D-82B5-48BE-938D-0DB9020B18FA@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > With the slow memory chips back then, making things work with the > wretched 8202 DRAM controller was a real chore. I seem to recall > that if you ran worst-case numbers, you could wind up with the > requirement of a negative access time for the DRAM for a 5MHz 8085. > Adding bank-mapping hardware in the address path didn't improve > things any. A slight diversion here...What is wretched about the 8202? I ask because I got ahold of a few not long ago (and some 8203s) and was considering putting something together with them to play with. I worked with the 8207 DRAM controller extensively on the Navier- Stokes Supercomputer Project at Princeton in the mid-late 1980s...We had lots of problems with the memory arrays at first, but they were eventually all traced to power...both nasty spikes on Vdd and ground bounce. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 29 00:36:44 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:36:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479E35F0.30160.71C1320@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801282310.m0SN9q6a095324@dewey.classiccmp.org> <479E35F0.30160.71C1320@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080128223433.J2261@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My point is, that "MS-DOS compatible" covers a huge amount of > territory. On the other hand, "something that will boot from a PC- > DOS 3.31 diskette" is quite a bit more restrictive. I agree completely. But, I would substitute "PC-DOS 3.30 diskette", since I can only find 3.31 in MS-DOS (usually with machine specific MODE.COM, etc.) From jeffj at panix.com Mon Jan 28 13:49:18 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:49:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: replies to cctech Digest, Vol 53, Issue 52 Message-ID: ------------------------------ From: "UnR00ster" Subject: Re: 27256 in place of a 2764 >> Under what conditions can a 27256 be used in place of a 2764? I have a >> schematic that calls for the latter, of which I have none, >> but I have lots of the former. > See Ray Carlsen's site > http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/ > http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/eprompla.txt > adapters http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/uwweb/EPROM/2x256.gif > and http://staff.washington.edu/rrcc/uwweb/EPROM/2x128.gif > This is all for Commodore stuff, but the idea of using a > modified socket and 512K chip should work for you as well. Very clever! I used to get EE trade rags and a regular advertisor was a socket maker of "correct-a-dip": a daughter-board that you slip under a chip to correct the pinout or add other parts, kinda like the Slocket adapters for CPUs. That's a nice way to do-it-yourself with easy to use, readily available parts and no custom fabrication! ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Fast 8Kx2 ROM replacement Message-ID: <479CF645.31339.23B64E5 at cclist.sydex.com> > I don't have the message archives, but I don't think that anyone > mentioned the Cypress CY22016L NVSRAM using QuantumTrap technology. > > Pretty cool stuff; very fast SRAM backed by NV RAM; > at power-up, the SRAM is loaded from the nonvolatile store; > at power-down, it's written (optionally and probably not needed for this application). > > The SRAM has access times of 25, 35 or 45 nsec. and unlimited writes. > The NV RAM is guaranteed for 1,000,000 writes. Why not try for a free sample of the Freescale Magnetoresistive Random Access Memory (MRAM): it's fast and needs no power at all. The largest seems to be P/N PR2A16AVYS35 4MBIT http://www.freescale.com/ ------------------------------ From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: 8-bit micro MMU's Message-ID: > One thing that is worth doing that I've seen done on > a Z8000 system is to map instruction memory into > a different area of physical memory than the data memory. > I don't recall but I think there is status information from > the Z80 about what type of fetch or store is being done. I was pondering that long long ago: using the M1 line to differentiate instruction fetch from data read/write. Just one thing: unless it's an embedded system running only from ROM, the loader needs to re-map data areas into program/executable space. Before pipelines, pre-fetching and caches, CPUs accessed RAM with a steady pace and pattern. I can't be the only one to ponder using a Z80 where the M1 cycles (opcode fetch, refrech) went to ROM and non M1 cycles went to RAM, thus allowing other devices to "cycle steal" access to the RAM without interfering with the CPU execution at all (unlike DMA which halts the CPU, or at least all the CPU's bus access). -- Jeff Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 28 18:02:10 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:02:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080128152901.S78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> the Vic9K was the weirdest of the lot. Probably followed by the DEC Rainbow. They're all severely weird in their own right. For instance take the Tandy 2000. It was *pretty* compatible at both the DOS and BIOS levels, but a friend couldn't even get a BASIC program that taught morse code to work (it was written for a real peecee). He tried to enlist my help to tweak it, but we never got around to it. Many of these things were compatible at the DOS level, but most I think weren't even at the BIOS level. Like the NEC APC III (probably the APC too). I wouldn't worry about the psuedo-compatibles. Too much work *snifful* ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Jan 29 02:41:47 2008 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:41:47 +0100 Subject: non-existence of printer collectors...proven wrong Message-ID: <20080129084147.323290@gmx.net> Sat, 26 Jan 2008, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Okay, so who wants a working Diablo Hitype II? Spare wheels and >(probably dried-out) ribbons. Free for pickup, or for the cost of > shipping. Probably in America and thus out of my reach, unless somebody coming to the upcoming VCFe in Munich offered to bring it along. "Ed" wrote: > Back in 1995 I used an IBM 3262 belt printer which was attached to an > AS/400. I don't know what its native interface was, but the company I > was working for had got hold of a third-party interface box that was > mounted on the side of said printer and connected it to the AS/400 via > twinax. Funny thing was, there was also a Centronics socket on the > base of said interface unit... > That unit would do 600LPM, so I was told. It was about a 1m x 1m x 1m > cube, and it was *loud*. Ah, I totally forgot about telling that I at one time also was involved with the rescue of such a setup (3262 and interface box) from a big mailorder store in Germany, which was passed to Hans Franke for possible future use with his/our 4331. The print server or how it's to be called boots from a floppy disk on power-up. The printer had been transported to my school in the Janitor's van and stored there for some weeks. When we came to pick it up in with our station wagon, it showed that the unfortunate piece of equipment was a tiny bit too large to fit through the hatch although there would have been ample space inside. We solved the problem by rolling the printer to our garage on it's own casters (one block from the school) and taking off the outer panels there so we could deliver it to Munich the following weekend. In my list, I forgot to mention my only GPIB-enabled printer, a CBM 8023 (9 needles, IIRC). At the risk of leaving the classic definition of "printers", I also have to brag about last week's great find, an Agfa PCR II film recorder, unfortunately missing the camera body that belongs to it - a modified Nikon N6000, according to internet sources. So long, Arno -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 29 05:45:46 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:45:46 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 Message-ID: <01C86242.B80A3760@mandr71> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:11:42 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Z80 Divide by 10 >>> Can we just shoot the designers of the 8086 and just leave it that. !? On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: >> But seriously -- why? I didn't find it all that horrible -- in fact, I >> missed the string handling (REP MOVSW/STOSW/SCASW/etc.) on all the other >> platforms I mentioned. If they truly deserve to be shot, I want to know >> why :-) >Some people get rather upset at the lack of symmetry, and lack of certain >instructions that might be handy, such as a load immediate into segment >registers. ---- And some people just get rather upset by _anything_ that doesn't match their view of how the world "should" be... m From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 29 07:00:34 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:00:34 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:20:17 CST." <479EB791.8040706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> With only 2 ports the best topology you can get is a ring. You didn't say what you the application was, but i'll assume some sort of demo-ware. You might want to talk to all the nodes, so unique addressing might be an issue. But more likely loop-less flooding is what you want. That should be easy on a ring. if everyone has a unique id you just forward (and copy) everything which you didn't send. or use a hop count which starts at 64 :-) You might look at the Amoeba o/s and implement a simple IPC like it did. You could then distribute work via the IPC. Since these are small machines you might also consider something more like the original connection machine (CM-2). Everyone runs the exact same code and you send results back and forth. You won't be synchronous like the CM-2 but you could sync up with your serial ports. I'd bet you could make some fun demo-ware with a few LED's on each machine (or 3, like R,G,B) -brad From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Tue Jan 29 07:37:43 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:37:43 +0100 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1201613862.1041.6.camel@bladerider.local> Hi Jim, if you are using RS485 as the physical bus structure you will be restricted to 32 units on the same bus. You can use the description of multimaster protocols like PROFIBUS (token passing) or CAN (priorities) as a starting point, but you have to implement your own peer to peer protocol on top of that. Gerold Am Di, den 29.01.2008 schrieb Jim Brain um 04:30: > Sellam wants to finish the 64 c64 cluster for the next VCF. I've been > researching ideas for communicating among the machines, and the best > ideas point to using the two synchronous serial ports on the user port > (low wire count, transfers at 250kbps). > > But, I have grawn a complete blank on plans for a true peer to peer > (token based or otherwise) networking protocol. Everything I see is > master/slave. RS485 material talks about the hardware layer, but there > is no detail on the protocol layer. > > I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low > speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for > things to look into? > > Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 09:15:21 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:15:21 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: HI With a ring, you could use a token but that would require a master to start things and restore the ring when it was broken. An alternative would be to allow a random machine to become the master when a time had expired. One could use a random number generator to determine when any one machine chooses to be the master. Each would hold off for some time and if no token showed, it would send a token that had that machines ID. If another token showed up with lesser priority ID, it would drop that token. Each machine would wait for the sender of the highest priority token sent to send a message that its token had made one loop, before resumming normal messages. If a higher priority token showed, it would know that either the ring was still broken or some other system was the now the master and had destroyed its token. It would continue to watch the ring and if it didn't see a token show after some time, it would hold off based on its random value and then send a new token. When the ring was restored, things would settle out. All that is required is that each machine has a unique ID. Such a ring system could then be broken at any time to install another machine or remove a machine. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 29 09:35:35 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:35:35 -0600 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080126222156.GC30565@brevard.conman.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479F47C7.2090402@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Lack of load immediate into segment isn't a big problem. Lack of "add > immediate to effective address" is a much bigger problem. Isn't that handled by ADD SI,immed? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Tue Jan 29 09:33:00 2008 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:33:00 +0100 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1201620779.1041.25.camel@bladerider.local> You don't need a ring to use token passing protocols. There are some token passing protocols implemented on bus structures (IEEE-802.4 (token bus), PROFIBUS, ...) Just my 2c Gerold Am Di, den 29.01.2008 schrieb dwight elvey um 16:15: > HI > With a ring, you could use a token but that would require > a master to start things and restore the ring when it was broken. ... > Dwight From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 29 09:30:12 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:30:12 -0500 Subject: Anybody ever find Kai Kaltenbach? Message-ID: <479F0034020000370001F3D2@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> I was trading some stuff with Kai Kaltenbach back around 1996/1997 or so, and promised him a binder of docs when I found it. Well, I found the binder, and now I cannot track him down. Anybody have a current E-mail address for him? From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Jan 29 11:22:48 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:22:48 -0500 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <20080128213726.Y99849@shell.lmi.net> References: <479A2221.10308.2DE97452@cclist.sydex.com><479E1476.7040307@gmail.com><009201c8620a$ec81be60$03fea8c0@portajara><479E6200.3060408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080128152426.W78533@shell.lmi.net> <005201c86227$9fdb86f0$c600a8c0@game> <20080128213726.Y99849@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <479F60E8.6010509@netscape.net> This thread illustrates the wide range of interests (and opinions) on this list, which is one of the reasons the list is a valuable resource. I find it interesting that the general consensus is that no one collects printers. IMHO a vintage computer collection is not complete without peripherals for I/O. How can the usefulness (or even the limitations) of a vintage computer be demonstrated without a printer? (ignoring game machines here) Nevertheless, the most collected printers are the ones tied to collectible vintage machines with odd interfaces, such as HPIL or HPIB. Many manufacturers, such as Commodore and Apple, made printers for their machines. An early Mac needs an AppleWriter next to it. How can you have a DEC collection without a DEC printer running over DECconnect or (better) DECNET? Ok, an industrial-grade Panasonic may be tough sell... Jim From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Jan 29 11:51:50 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:51:50 -0500 Subject: a tad OT: creating a bootable cflash card In-Reply-To: <183257.62199.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <183257.62199.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479F67B6.1080308@netscape.net> Chris, Bootable thumb drives are now almost mainstream, and thus way OT for this list. See the current issue of PC Mag (even more OT) for the ultimate bootable thumb drive. A thumb drive is just a CF card permanently mounted to a USB plug and many modern BIOS have settings to boot many devices (floppy, CD, HD, etc.) from a USB port. The step you seem to be missing is making the partition on the CFcard active. Only an "active" partition will boot. AFAIK, this cannot be done with the tools provided by XP but there are other partition programs that will do it. (Your search engine is your friend.) [Jay, this should take care of it.] Jim Chris M wrote: > the computer in question, though I didn't mention it > specifically, can indeed boot off of a compact flash > card. I only mentioned the lt and all because that's > all I have to create (hopefully) the bootable card. > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On 11/01/2008 01:20, Chris M wrote: >>> I'm stumped. All I have to work with is a WinXP >> laptop >>> that doesn't boot off anything special in >> particular. >>> The CD drive yes, but that's about it. I once was >> able >>> to make bootable CD's w/early versions of Norton, >> but >>> I doubt that would work for a compact flash card. >> You can't boot an OS from a CompactFlash card in a >> card reader slot. >> You have to have it in an IDE-to-CF adapter (which >> is a simple passive >> device, there's no electronics involved) connected >> to your HDD >> controller, so the computer sees the CF card as an >> IDE drive. If you >> set it up that way, then you should be able to >> format it as bootable. >> You certainly can using Linux, and it should be >> possible using DOS >> booted from a floppy. Of course, this might be >> problematic on a laptop! >> >> -- >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Network Manager >> University of York >> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 29 11:57:18 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:57:18 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Since it's a C64, I assume that the ports are polled rather than interrupt driven I/O? Flow control might be a problem if these machines are doing other things at the same time. I see two potential architectures.... The easiest is a ring with packet forwardings. Each machine has its output connected to one machine and its input connected to another. This is probably the simplest hardware wise and software wise. It's also the slowest. When a packet comes in, its destination address is checked against the current machines address. If it doesn't match, it is forwarded to the next machine. No collision detection is necessary. One potential problem is that a packet with a bad address can circulate forever unless you have a way of detecting it. Next, there's a token ring where all of the outputs are connected to all of the inputs, except perhaps not the input on the same machine. For 64 machines you're going to need external electronics to clean up the signals, since I doubt that a single output can drive 64 inputs. The other potential problem is connecting inputs together. You are going to need to prevent non-transmitting inputs from frying themselves probably by tristating any input on a machine that doesn't have the token. Even if you have them tristated you are going to want current limiting protection so you don't blow out the ports when a problem happens. I doubt that the C64 serial ports are specified to survive having multiple transmitters on the same line. For protocol, I'd go with a modified SLIP, since it's well specified, small enough to implement on an 8 bit processor, includes appropriate escape characters, the code is everywhere and it's easily modified. We've used it for serial buses on spacecraft. On Jan 28, 2008 7:30 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Sellam wants to finish the 64 c64 cluster for the next VCF. I've been > researching ideas for communicating among the machines, and the best > ideas point to using the two synchronous serial ports on the user port > (low wire count, transfers at 250kbps). > > But, I have grawn a complete blank on plans for a true peer to peer > (token based or otherwise) networking protocol. Everything I see is > master/slave. RS485 material talks about the hardware layer, but there > is no detail on the protocol layer. > > I would think this would be a well researched and innovated area, low > speed communication without a master node. Anyone have any pointers for > things to look into? > > Jim > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 29 12:04:59 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:04:59 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > You are > going to need to prevent non-transmitting inputs from frying > themselves probably by tristating any input on a machine that doesn't > have the token. Even if you have them tristated you are going to want > current limiting protection so you don't blow out the ports when a > problem happens. I doubt that the C64 serial ports are specified to > survive having multiple transmitters on the same line. Brain not working this morning. I obviously mean outputs in the paragraph above. Eric From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 29 12:53:16 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:53:16 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <479F761C.2050700@jbrain.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > The easiest is a ring with packet forwardings. Each machine has its > output connected to one machine and its input connected to another. > This is probably the simplest hardware wise and software wise. It's > also the slowest. When a packet comes in, its destination address is > checked against the current machines address. If it doesn't match, it > is forwarded to the next machine. No collision detection is > necessary. One potential problem is that a packet with a bad address > can circulate forever unless you have a way of detecting it. > This was the approach I was leaning towards, as it takes care of the fanout issues. But, for general purpose use, I was trying to think of a way to have a node that is turned off have a "bypass". I thought of a DPDT relay, but then I started to think of what would happen if the relay closed/opened in the middle of a byte being transferred to the machine turning off. How would I recover from that. But, I agree, that solution offers the best hope. > For protocol, I'd go with a modified SLIP, since it's well specified, > small enough to implement on an 8 bit processor, includes appropriate > escape characters, the code is everywhere and it's easily modified. > We've used it for serial buses on spacecraft. > Hmm, good idea. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 29 12:53:46 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:53:46 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <479F763A.2040804@jbrain.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Since it's a C64, I assume that the ports are polled rather than > interrupt driven I/O? Flow control might be a problem if these > machines are doing other things at the same time. > No, actually, the 6526 can generate an IRQ when the byte is delivered. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 12:52:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:52:20 -0800 Subject: Fast 8Kx2 ROM replacement In-Reply-To: <200801291800.m0TI0BFq007035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801291800.m0TI0BFq007035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479F0564.7084.A466C7A@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:49:18 -0500 (EST) > From: Jeff Jonas > Why not try for a free sample of the Freescale Magnetoresistive Random > Access Memory (MRAM): it's fast and needs no power at all. The largest > seems to be P/N PR2A16AVYS35 4MBIT I was also going to suggest the Ramtron FRAM, but was looking for something close to the OP's original target of 2Kx8. The smallest parallel-access FRAM that Ramtron offers is 8Kx8, which is why I didn't suggest it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 13:05:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:05:12 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <200801291800.m0TI0BFq007035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801291800.m0TI0BFq007035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479F0868.2690.A5235A0@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:45:46 -0500 > From: M H Stein > >Some people get rather upset at the lack of symmetry, and lack of certain > >instructions that might be handy, such as a load immediate into segment > >registers. > And some people just get rather upset by _anything_ that doesn't match > their view of how the world "should" be... Sigh. As long as it's possible to "get there from here", I don't much mind how an instruction set's laid out. I'll learn it and learn to work around the problem areas, such as the lack of an inclusive-OR instruction on the CP1600, or the weird setup of the RCA COSMAC, or the asymnetry of 's instruction set, or the lack of a hardware stack on a PDP/8. If you want strange and asymnetric, try working with a few samples of the current crop of microcontrollers. You can get used to anything. In a way, this line of discussion reminds me of an Inuit criticizing the Tongan language for the lack in the vocabulary for different types of snow. You work with what you've got. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 29 12:47:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:47:15 -0800 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's In-Reply-To: <200801291800.m0TI0BFq007035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801291800.m0TI0BFq007035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <479F0433.9597.A41C5DB@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:19:35 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > A slight diversion here...What is wretched about the 8202? I ask > because I got ahold of a few not long ago (and some 8203s) and was > considering putting something together with them to play with. As I recall, the timing, on chip-to-chip samples was all over the place making it a headache to design a manufacturable product. The second-generation 8203 is much better in that respect. I'd recommend that you skip the 8202. If it's a one-off and you have more than one sample, it may not matter. I thought it interesting that IBM avoided the problem of a DRAM controller altogether on the PC and dedicated a channel of the 8237 DMA controller to serve as refresh generator. You'dve thought that Intel would have made them a great deal on one. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 29 13:07:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:07:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479E6240.20307@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 28, 8 05:16:16 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > DOS calls will work for ANYTHING running MS-DOS, including grossly > > incompatible machines, such as Victor 9000 (Sirius) > > Since one of my requirements is manipulating the PC speaker to sound an > arbitrary tone of arbitrary duration -- something that is not provided > by the BIOS or MS-DOS -- should I worry about "grossly incompatible" > machines? For example, does the Victor 9000 even *have* a speaker (or > 8253 timer?)? The Victor 9000 (Sirius over here) does have a speaker. But it's not driven by an 8253 (or 8354), in fact there is no such chip in the machine. It's driven from a PCM codec chip. The bitstream for that comes from a 6852 (synchronous serial chip), the clock comes from one of the counter/timers (line PB7???) of the 'User' VIA. Yes, the input side is connected up as well, there's a pin header on the mainboard that can be used to feed audio into the codec, and the bitstream from that goes to the 6852. Please don't ask me how to program that to make beeps ;-) > That was also an issue with the AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24 if you were > using a monochrome monitor. It was monochrome CGA, but the monitor > would do things like _underline_ the text based on the attribute. That, IIRC, is what a real _MDA_ card does. -tony From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Jan 29 13:54:57 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:54:57 -0500 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> In the early 8088/86 days, manufacturers like DEC, HP, TI and Zenith thought they could compete with IBM by being "better" in some way. Zenith had 640x400 graphics and did the Tandy 2000. The TI had great graphics. HP, with 3.5" floppy drives, didn't even try to be really try to be compabible - but it ran MS DOS! HP was not even consistent within their own model lines! The HP Portable Plus would not always run programs written for (or ported to) the HP150. When I first became interested in collecting (late 80's) my first target was "DOS Incompatibles" like those named above. I had a Wang PC (great text but little IBM compatibility), Zenith, etc. In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's I/O thru DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. dBase II (a port from CP/M) would run on most DOS machines of the time without modification. Mitch Kapor ended that with the release of 1-2-3 and new programs like dBase 3 were IBM PC-specific. A few manufacturers (like HP) paid Lotus to port 1-2-3 to their machine to lure customers but that was a loosing game. So to the original question -- the three requirements will limit the program to "true compatibles", meaning a hardware clone. The most incompatible MS-DOS machine ever, the Seattle Gazelle, uses a serial terminal so the only "sound" available would be the terminal bell. Jim Chris M wrote: > the Vic9K was the weirdest of the lot. Probably > followed by the DEC Rainbow. They're all severely > weird in their own right. For instance take the Tandy > 2000. It was *pretty* compatible at both the DOS and > BIOS levels, but a friend couldn't even get a BASIC > program that taught morse code to work (it was written > for a real peecee). He tried to enlist my help to > tweak it, but we never got around to it. > Many of these things were compatible at the DOS > level, but most I think weren't even at the BIOS > level. Like the NEC APC III (probably the APC too). I > wouldn't worry about the psuedo-compatibles. Too much > work *snifful* > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Jan 29 13:54:57 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:54:57 -0500 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> In the early 8088/86 days, manufacturers like DEC, HP, TI and Zenith thought they could compete with IBM by being "better" in some way. Zenith had 640x400 graphics and did the Tandy 2000. The TI had great graphics. HP, with 3.5" floppy drives, didn't even try to be really try to be compabible - but it ran MS DOS! HP was not even consistent within their own model lines! The HP Portable Plus would not always run programs written for (or ported to) the HP150. When I first became interested in collecting (late 80's) my first target was "DOS Incompatibles" like those named above. I had a Wang PC (great text but little IBM compatibility), Zenith, etc. In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's I/O thru DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. dBase II (a port from CP/M) would run on most DOS machines of the time without modification. Mitch Kapor ended that with the release of 1-2-3 and new programs like dBase 3 were IBM PC-specific. A few manufacturers (like HP) paid Lotus to port 1-2-3 to their machine to lure customers but that was a loosing game. So to the original question -- the three requirements will limit the program to "true compatibles", meaning a hardware clone. The most incompatible MS-DOS machine ever, the Seattle Gazelle, uses a serial terminal so the only "sound" available would be the terminal bell. Jim Chris M wrote: > the Vic9K was the weirdest of the lot. Probably > followed by the DEC Rainbow. They're all severely > weird in their own right. For instance take the Tandy > 2000. It was *pretty* compatible at both the DOS and > BIOS levels, but a friend couldn't even get a BASIC > program that taught morse code to work (it was written > for a real peecee). He tried to enlist my help to > tweak it, but we never got around to it. > Many of these things were compatible at the DOS > level, but most I think weren't even at the BIOS > level. Like the NEC APC III (probably the APC too). I > wouldn't worry about the psuedo-compatibles. Too much > work *snifful* > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 14:48:26 2008 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:48:26 +0200 Subject: DG10 AOS tapes Message-ID: I have some DG10 AOS tapes which I can not use and do not need. I have not tested these tapes or contents. 8 pcs of 45 MB QIC-2 tapes. If any interest please email. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Vista + Windows Live. Astu digitaaliseen maailmaan. http://get.live.com From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jan 29 15:07:52 2008 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:07:52 -0800 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2008, at 11:54 AM, scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > So to the original question -- the three requirements will limit the > program to "true compatibles", meaning a hardware clone. The most > incompatible MS-DOS machine ever, the Seattle Gazelle, uses a serial > terminal so the only "sound" available would be the terminal bell. You could look at it from another perspective. Given that's what Tim Paterson coded DOS on in the first place, the argument could be made that everybody else is who's incompatible. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jan 29 20:19:23 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:19:23 +0000 Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive emulator? Message-ID: <20080130021923.GA7074@usap.gov> Hi, Commodore folks, I have just tracked down an ISA IEEE-488 card and was thinking that it might be interesting to use it to build an older PC into a Commodore diskette drive emulator - I recall there are various projects to interface modern hardware to PETs (like the C2N232 I have with me), but the idea in this case is to allow existing apps to work as if there were a real C= drive hanging off the PET's IEEE port. Essentially, the PC would act as closely to, say a 4040, as possible. My thought was that if I had a real IEEE-488 interface, it could handle the physical-layer protocol, and the emulator would only have to handle sending and receiving command strings and data. The virtual diskettes would be, of course, image files. I'm not really as worried about RELative files - more along the lines of "direct access" files where the code running on the PET wants to read and write individual sectors, ignoring the C= DOS filesystem. That is, in fact, the major reason for trying to emulate drives in the first place - if it was just a case of loading and saving streams of data as files, the C2N232 does a fine job of that (and costs on the order of $10 to breadboard). There seem to be a number of ways to emulate C= IEC-bus devices (such as the 1541-III), but not for the IEEE-488. If anyone can point me at any existing projects, even if they are incomplete, it would be a big help. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jan-2008 at 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -34.8 F (-37.1 C) Windchill -57.9 F (-50.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.9 kts Grid 45 Barometer 674.7 mb (10829 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 29 21:32:11 2008 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:32:11 -0600 Subject: old ncr laptop Message-ID: <016f01c862f0$b3986040$6600a8c0@JWEST> I was contacted by someone with an NCR 3120 laptop (1990). They want to sell it for best offer plus shipping. It's located in arizona and from the pics looks to be minty. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. Jay From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 29 22:37:36 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 05:37:36 +0100 Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc In-Reply-To: <47937791.5040806@comcast.net> References: <2597114.1200599917408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4793721A.8080507@brothom.nl> <47937791.5040806@comcast.net> Message-ID: <479FFF10.9000209@hachti.de> Dan Roganti wrote: > > press cntrl +G That's the OTHER bell! The ASR has an automatic line end bell AND rings on 0x07! -- http://www.hachti.de From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 29 06:42:38 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:42:38 -0500 Subject: 8-bit micro MMU's Message-ID: <0JVE008D4OI73UJA@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8-bit micro MMU's > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:19:35 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jan 28, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> With the slow memory chips back then, making things work with the >> wretched 8202 DRAM controller was a real chore. I seem to recall >> that if you ran worst-case numbers, you could wind up with the >> requirement of a negative access time for the DRAM for a 5MHz 8085. >> Adding bank-mapping hardware in the address path didn't improve >> things any. > > A slight diversion here...What is wretched about the 8202? I ask >because I got ahold of a few not long ago (and some 8203s) and was >considering putting something together with them to play with. Nothing save for the 8202 was optimized for 16k drams and the 8080 cpu (at 2mhz!). It was the older part. if your going to do Dram larger than 64k that the 8203 is the part of choise and pretty decent though not fantastically fast. the latter was because early Dram didn't do cas/ before ras/ refresh and other tricks to interleve the refresh cycle and the early parts were slow. > I worked with the 8207 DRAM controller extensively on the Navier- >Stokes Supercomputer Project at Princeton in the mid-late 1980s...We >had lots of problems with the memory arrays at first, but they were >eventually all traced to power...both nasty spikes on Vdd and ground >bounce. Big arrays are tough in the power gridding and bypass. The 8207 was a more involved part to use. Allison > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 29 07:08:56 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:08:56 -0500 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 Message-ID: <0JVE002HXPPZZ4G3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Z80 Divide by 10 > From: Sean Conner > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:35:52 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: >> >> I find it amazing that there's an instruction set even more annoying >> >> than >> >>the 8086 (segments and all). I was amazed at the lopsidedness of the >> >>instruction set. I'm beginning to think I was lucky in skipping this >> >>particular chip (my first 8-bit was the 6809, so I think I got spoiled). >> >> Other than the goofy segment layout, what did you find "annoying" about >> the 8086 instruction set? > > Me? I didn't find it all that odd (at least, once I realized it was >better to look at the opcode map in octal instead of hex), but I do recall >reading various rants against the x86 on USENET in the early to mid 90s. I >did *a lot* of 8086 programming in the late 80s/early 90s, and still like >revisiting it from time to time (well, assembly in general, not specifically >the 8086). > > -spc (Man, I think I'd prefer the 6502 over the Z80 any day, and I hate > the 6502 ... ) ;) Having programmed a lot of the 8bitters and a fair number of 16 bitters my favorites are: PDP11, z80, 8085 and 804x(and 805x) I happen to hate Zilog neumonics for z80 though as it hides the fact that thre are hole in the instruction set. It also took me a long time to to switch from octal to hex as octal made the instruction set clear rather than hiding the holes. But I'm used to them especially the 8085, z80 and 804x. Others I find interesting are 6502, 1802, 6809 and TI9900 but I have to pay atttention as they require a different programming approach than would z80 or for that fact PDP11. Not better or worse just different. My all time favorite is PDP-8. Likely the most minimal instruction set that does enough. It has all the lacks XYZ of most every cpu and you can still code effectively with it. Also after PDP-8 everything looks good. ;) The 1802 also falls in that catagory, odd little machine with not much there but functional programs that are fast for the CPU speed manage to happen. There are few micros that do decent math, ti9900 and 6809 are ok at it but none were designed to be a primary number cruncher. Most code math routines effectively enough and thats what counts. If theres a comment here each cpu has something going for it or PDP8, PDP-11, z80 and 6502 would not have been amoung the longest lived cpus going. Yet despite that I still loathe the 8088/6 and later as the worst 8080 enhancement with a bag on the side. Just my .02$ Allison From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 11:01:19 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Making rubber/plastic parts: was: Ladder-shaped belt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <374969.37030.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> sometimes you have to make allowances for shrinkage. Just something to keep in mind. There are books and articles on this topic (look for oldies from TAB). --- dwight elvey wrote: > > > > From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net > >> > > I have tried to make replacement rubber rollers > for a Decision Data card punch machine. I first made > a mold from casting > > resin then filed it with silicone RTV. Almost > worked. The problem > > was that the original part I used to make the mold > with had changed shape somewhat and I did not get a > symmetric part. > > Hi Bob > Instead of using a rubber one, measure the diameter > and turn one with some > hardwood or aluminum. You'll get a nice concentric > one this way. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts!?Play the word > scramble challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 11:03:11 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:03:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080128223433.J2261@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> any computer that can boot vanilla MS-DOS can boot PC-DOS. AFAICT... --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > My point is, that "MS-DOS compatible" covers a > huge amount of > > territory. On the other hand, "something that > will boot from a PC- > > DOS 3.31 diskette" is quite a bit more > restrictive. > > I agree completely. > But, I would substitute "PC-DOS 3.30 diskette", > since I can only find > 3.31 in MS-DOS (usually with machine specific > MODE.COM, etc.) > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From harten at injectstar.de Tue Jan 29 14:25:22 2008 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:25:22 +0200 Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer Message-ID: Hi! I'm a Computer collector from Germany and the last 3 years i spend a lot of time in reconstructing and repairing my PDP11/05 along with its peripheral devices (2x RK05,RX02,BA11ES). Noe that these things are working im trying to repair my LA180-PD printer, that was in no good condition. With a copy of the logic-prints i was able to find some faulty IC's on th logic board- but there must be at least one more. On Power-Up the carriage starts to move back to left edge but stopps before reaching the left end then the bell is turned on permanently. There is no reaction on any button pressed or switched over. Unfortunately i have no Maintenance Manual or Logic description, maybe there is a person out on this list who can help me with a copy of the documents. Regards Axel Harten. From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Jan 29 15:33:47 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:33:47 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> Message-ID: scheefj at netscape.net writes: > In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's I/O thru > DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it commonplace for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS calls and wrote directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems like CP/M developers were more disciplined in this fashion, but maybe it's just because in the CP/M arena there were so many different pieces of hardware it was the only way to do it? (Whereas with IBM, the PC was seen as more of a reference standard, even if it wasn't really that way in the beginning?) I'd be interested to hear opinions from people who were there at the time, since it was a little before my time. Josh From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 30 07:45:29 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:45:29 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200801301345.m0UDjVgT018754@keith.ezwind.net> CPM had a bios section that loaded on boot. A bios was built for each and every configuration. There was no compatibility mod persay. Several vendors had fancy bios configurators that "Built" a bios from boiler plate based on desired hardware configuration and linked it up for the faint of heart. But as for a universally compatible bios that was what ms/pcdos introduced to the masses. The other Bob On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:33:47 -0500, Joshua Alexander Dersch wrote: >scheefj at netscape.net writes: >> In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's I/O thru >> DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. >Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it commonplace >for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS calls and wrote >directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems like CP/M developers were >more disciplined in this fashion, but maybe it's just because in the CP/M >arena there were so many different pieces of hardware it was the only way to >do it? (Whereas with IBM, the PC was seen as more of a reference standard, >even if it wasn't really that way in the beginning?) >I'd be interested to hear opinions from people who were there at the time, >since it was a little before my time. >Josh From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 30 10:59:32 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:59:32 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47A0ACF4.6000003@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > The easiest is a ring with packet forwardings. Each machine has its > output connected to one machine and its input connected to another. > This is probably the simplest hardware wise and software wise. It's > also the slowest. When a packet comes in, its destination address is > checked against the current machines address. If it doesn't match, it > is forwarded to the next machine. No collision detection is > necessary. One potential problem is that a packet with a bad address > can circulate forever unless you have a way of detecting it. This is pretty much the only feasible solution IMO. You have to ask yourself, "What is a cluster of C64 machines going to do?" If it's a cluster, probably something like heavy lifting (raytracing, calculating something, etc.). So latency isn't really an issue because you don't need speed, just communication/synchronization between machines. What *is* this cluster going to do, anyway? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 11:04:32 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:04:32 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <47A0ACF4.6000003@oldskool.org> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <47A0ACF4.6000003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <7d3530220801300904v16086917w6f95c42ed4be3ab5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 8:59 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > The easiest is a ring with packet forwardings. Each machine has its > > output connected to one machine and its input connected to another. > > This is probably the simplest hardware wise and software wise. It's > > also the slowest. When a packet comes in, its destination address is > > checked against the current machines address. If it doesn't match, it > > is forwarded to the next machine. No collision detection is > > necessary. One potential problem is that a packet with a bad address > > can circulate forever unless you have a way of detecting it. > > This is pretty much the only feasible solution IMO. > > You have to ask yourself, "What is a cluster of C64 machines going to > do?" If it's a cluster, probably something like heavy lifting > (raytracing, calculating something, etc.). So latency isn't really an > issue because you don't need speed, just communication/synchronization > between machines. > > What *is* this cluster going to do, anyway? > You know, I forgot to say this earlier... but make sure to put this on Slashdot when you get it working, it's the perfect /. story :) Just don't host the site on a C64. Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those... pouring hot grits down the C64's pants... in Soviet Russia, C64's cluster YOU! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 30 11:07:38 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:07:38 -0600 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080128152901.S78533@shell.lmi.net> References: <479E4BB4.7080707@oldskool.org> <20080128140521.C78533@shell.lmi.net> <479E6240.20307@oldskool.org> <20080128152901.S78533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47A0AEDA.9040007@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >> That was also an issue with the AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24 if you were >> using a monochrome monitor. It was monochrome CGA, but the monitor >> would do things like _underline_ the text based on the attribute. > > That was a normal feature of MDA Of MDA, yes, but this was "monochrome CGA" which was supposed to display 16 different shades of green, ie. behave like CGA and not MDA. That's why I listed it as an oddity. > INT 10h, function 0Fh returns in AL with the numeric value of what video > mode is in use. 2 = B&W CGA 3 = color CGA 7 = MDA > IFF sufficiently compatible (Toshiba T300 was NOT), then 2,3 mean B800h > and 7 means B000h Right, but this assumes IBM PC compatibility. I was asking if there is a separate call for "where is the base of screen memory" (it appears there is not). > In the early days, it was possible to call BASIC subroutines. But, I > don't think that they kept the same addresses for long. Wow -- while that's cool, what was a useful application for that? Borrowing the use of the floating-point routines, perhaps? ROM has a faster access time than RAM, but would it have been all that much faster than doing it yourself, or would it have just been merely convenient? > Working with the "NON-PC-compatible" MS-DOS machines, such as DEC Rainbow, > TI Proffessional, Toshiba T300, Sanyo 550?, HP 150?, Tandy 2000, > Victor 9000, etc. would require major additional work for EACH one that > you support. > Unless you are willing to fall back to ONLY MS-DOS calls (MOV AH,2 > MOV DL, 7 INT 21h to beep), etc. stick with "clones". After reading your reply (and others) I think that's what I'm going to do. Full source (and on request, compiler) will be distributed so it's not like people can't fix it for their platform. Since the keyboard is the only thing different amongst the various clones I want to support, I've decided against my own keyboard handler, and will be doing this: - BIOS Int 16h for keyboard - DOS calls for file access, of course - Direct writing to screen (with optional snow handling) - Using the timer to hook to the speaker port to general square-wave tones without tieing up the CPU Thanks for your advice. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 30 11:18:47 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:18:47 +0000 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801300904v16086917w6f95c42ed4be3ab5@mail.gmail.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <47A0ACF4.6000003@oldskool.org> <7d3530220801300904v16086917w6f95c42ed4be3ab5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200801301718.48045.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> On Wednesday 30 January 2008 17:04:32 John Floren wrote: > You know, I forgot to say this earlier... but make sure to put this on > Slashdot when you get it working, it's the perfect /. story :) Just > don't host the site on a C64. > Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those... pouring hot grits down the C64's > pants... in Soviet Russia, C64's cluster YOU! You forgot: 1) Get Commodore 64s 2) ??? 3) Profit! Gordon From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 11:39:27 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:39:27 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <200801301718.48045.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <47A0ACF4.6000003@oldskool.org> <7d3530220801300904v16086917w6f95c42ed4be3ab5@mail.gmail.com> <200801301718.48045.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220801300939o703d5432n2a7e1ac73cc1a105@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 9:18 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wednesday 30 January 2008 17:04:32 John Floren wrote: > > > You know, I forgot to say this earlier... but make sure to put this on > > Slashdot when you get it working, it's the perfect /. story :) Just > > don't host the site on a C64. > > Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those... pouring hot grits down the C64's > > pants... in Soviet Russia, C64's cluster YOU! > > You forgot: > > 1) Get Commodore 64s > 2) ??? > 3) Profit! > > Gordon > I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 30 11:59:57 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:59:57 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <7F5FBF34-7976-4E37-876D-36AABAD289A6@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2008, at 12:57 PM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Next, there's a token ring where all of the outputs are connected to > all of the inputs, except perhaps not the input on the same machine. > For 64 machines you're going to need external electronics to clean up > the signals, since I doubt that a single output can drive 64 inputs. There are various chips available these days which are intended for clock distribution applications that may help to address this problem. > The other potential problem is connecting inputs together. You are > going to need to prevent non-transmitting inputs from frying > themselves probably by tristating any input on a machine that doesn't > have the token. Even if you have them tristated you are going to want > current limiting protection so you don't blow out the ports when a > problem happens. I doubt that the C64 serial ports are specified to > survive having multiple transmitters on the same line. ...or use open-drain drivers with pullup resistors to achieve a "wired-OR" configuration. Since each driver will only be able to force a low, there will be no contention at that level. That'd be trivial to do with a 2N7000 MOSFET or similar. The only thing to watch out for (that I can think of) is that the gate capacitance of the MOSFET will limit your switching speed. (Tony taught me that many years ago, in the context of driving IR LEDs for comm applications...thanks Tony!) That circuit would amount to one (cheap, available by the bagful on eBay) transistor for each node, and one pullup resistor for the whole ring. > For protocol, I'd go with a modified SLIP, since it's well specified, > small enough to implement on an 8 bit processor, includes appropriate > escape characters, the code is everywhere and it's easily modified. > We've used it for serial buses on spacecraft. I like this idea. It also brings with it the possibility of attaching another (non-C64) computer as a "test node" to access the network. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 30 12:09:39 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:09:39 -0800 Subject: Z80 Divide by 10 In-Reply-To: <479F47C7.2090402@oldskool.org> References: <200801251800.m0PI03c5020589@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080127083520.GA12168@brevard.conman.org> <20080127090633.GB12168@brevard.conman.org> <479E4CB7.3090808@oldskool.org> <479E53C6.20804@jetnet.ab.ca> <479E58F4.3040402@oldskool.org> <20080128151019.R78533@shell.lmi.net> <479F47C7.2090402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2008 7:35 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Lack of load immediate into segment isn't a big problem. Lack of "add > > immediate to effective address" is a much bigger problem. > > Isn't that handled by ADD SI,immed? That adds an immediate value to the offset portion of an effective address without changing the segment portion. There should have been an ADD DS:SI,immed instruction. To do long pointer arithmetic you end up doing something like... MOV AX,DS ADD SI,immed MOV BX, SI MOV CL, 4 SAR BX,CL ADD AX,BX AND SI,0Fh MOV DS,AX From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 30 12:09:38 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:09:38 -0500 Subject: some free DEC boxes in boston area - pickup only Message-ID: <200801301809.m0UI9cgS005635@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, I don't need the following DEC equipment anymore. Since I got them for free I figured I'd pass them on if anyone wants them: - working BA123 cabinet (with wheels!); no disks, no floppy, no boards, no front panel. I think I have the sides, no guarantee. But the p/s works fine. Great if you need an open qbus chassis. Plus makes a nice coffee table. - MV4000; has cpu & some disks (2 or 3?) it booted vms once and may still. I may have some s cards also laying around (nothing exciting). Worked fine last time I powered it up. Marginal as a coffee table; perhaps an end table. - MV3100 + associated scsi disk box. Last ran netbsd and worked fine. No idea what is on the disks. I think I have one scsi cable also. Not tall enough to be a coffee table. too heavy to server as paper weight. I can't ship these. If you want them you need to pick them up. I'm in Arlington Mass (USA) 02476. You can pick them up most any time. (I can't get at my 14" disks right now and those need to be spun up :-) -brad From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 30 12:27:25 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:27:25 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> Message-ID: <5791BC74-BF50-4F52-8D45-5CE3726EFACE@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2008, at 4:33 PM, Joshua Alexander Dersch wrote: >> In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's >> I/O thru DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. > > Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it > commonplace for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS > calls and wrote directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems > like CP/M developers were more disciplined in this fashion, but > maybe it's just because in the CP/M arena there were so many > different pieces of hardware it was the only way to do it? > (Whereas with IBM, the PC was seen as more of a reference standard, > even if it wasn't really that way in the beginning?) > I'd be interested to hear opinions from people who were there at > the time, since it was a little before my time. I was there; I was a CP/M weenie for many years. I still use it from time to time; it's lots of fun. The CP/M BIOS definition doesn't provide for all the things a user might want his/her hardware to do. Accessing serial ports efficiently is one thing...Some popular CP/M communications programs, such as the MODEM7 family, used the concept of "overlays" (not the kind that we use in the PDP-11 world!), which are assembly language modules which are written for your specific hardware that present a unified (BIOS-like!) interface to the rest of the MODEM7 code. It was intended that end users would write these routines for their specific hardware. (in a day when end users were typically highly technical people) Formatting floppy disks is another example. The CP/M BIOS has no provision for floppy disk formatting, so a formatter program had to be written for each floppy controller, and it accessed the controller's registers directly to perform the formatting (and sometimes verification) function. Other than specialized hardware (lab I/O, speech synthesizers, real-time clocks) there weren't many instances of programs directly accessing I/O in my experience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 30 12:33:41 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:33:41 -0800 Subject: some free DEC boxes in boston area - pickup only In-Reply-To: <200801301809.m0UI9cgS005635@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200801301809.m0UI9cgS005635@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: At 1:09 PM -0500 1/30/08, Brad Parker wrote: >- working BA123 cabinet (with wheels!); no disks, no floppy, no boards, > no front panel. I think I have the sides, no guarantee. But the p/s > works fine. Great if you need an open qbus chassis. Plus makes a nice > coffee table. If you've got all the sides and intact wheels, this is well worth saving. Even if it is for a VAX, nothing says someone can't "upgrade" it to a PDP-11. I'd classify it more of an end-table personally, and I actually used one that way for a few years. With a little effort you can also keep a VT420 and LA75 on top of it and use both. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 30 12:57:51 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:57:51 -0600 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> Message-ID: <47A0C8AF.5060500@oldskool.org> scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > In the early 8088/86 days, manufacturers like DEC, HP, TI and Zenith > thought they could compete with IBM by being "better" in some way. > Zenith had 640x400 graphics and did the Tandy 2000. As did the AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24. It CGA but with a 400-line monitor and 32K instead of 16K display RAM. It could do 640x400 in 2 colors. Once nice side-effect of having that much RAM is that it unintentionally gave CGA 2 true video pages -- but since having only one page normally was an exploitable trick, such games that used the trick didn't display properly on the 6300. A later "Display Enhancement Board" (DEB) upped that to 16 colors with palette capabilities, and also allowed the onboard CGA to mix with the DEB graphics, allowing mixing graphics with text. I never once saw commercial software exploit this :-( > So to the original question -- the three requirements will limit the > program to "true compatibles", meaning a hardware clone. The most > incompatible MS-DOS machine ever, the Seattle Gazelle, uses a serial > terminal so the only "sound" available would be the terminal bell. LOL Thanks for the advice. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 30 13:00:24 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:00:24 -0600 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A0C948.1010207@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> That was also an issue with the AT&T PC 6300/Olivetti M24 if you were >> using a monochrome monitor. It was monochrome CGA, but the monitor >> would do things like _underline_ the text based on the attribute. > > That, IIRC, is what a real _MDA_ card does. Of MDA, yes, but this was "monochrome CGA" which was supposed to display 16 different shades of green, ie. behave like CGA and not MDA. That's why I listed it as an oddity. RE: The Sirius, a PCM chip in an early clone is pretty forward-thinking! Shame that never took off. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 30 12:57:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:57:15 -0800 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <200801301800.m0UI06YE020479@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801301800.m0UI06YE020479@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A0580B.3084.F714575@cclist.sydex.com> > From: "Joshua Alexander Dersch": > Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it > commonplace for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS calls > and wrote directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems like CP/M > developers were more disciplined in this fashion, but maybe it's just > because in the CP/M arena there were so many different pieces of hardware > it was the only way to do it? (Whereas with IBM, the PC was seen as more > of a reference standard, even if it wasn't really that way in the > beginning?) The great thing about CP/M (and I'm talking about the 8-bit version here) was that it imposed a file system and made disk I/O uniform-- 128 byte sectors, regardless of how the information was actually formatted onto a drive. CP/M was really primitive when it came to console I/O, giving only about 3 functions for output and input each. No cursor positioning or screen control; basic TTY style I/O. And, while there was an IOBYTE facility to redirect I/O, implementation was very nonuniform between vendors. As a result, for other than simple command-line utility programs and compilers/assemblers and the like with minimal I/O requirements, most productivity and comms programs had to go to the hardware directly for display and communications. And that, I think was the innovation of programs such as WordStar and SuperCalc, and, to a lesser extent MODEM7 and Kermit--that you were running on an operating system that was basically designed for TTY I/O with no connectivity and the majority of systems were using CRTs and had modems. The problem became then how to make a single program work for everyone--and that was done with custom patch overlays. DRI, for its part, seemed to remain blissfully ignorant of both of these aspects. Likewise, it wasn't MS-DOS that was the great advance for the IBM PC platform, but rather the well-documented BIOS and I/O interfaces. Heck, PC-DOS 1.0 wasn't that different from CP/M-86--you still had to do your disk I/O through FCBs, just like CP/M. I believe, to this day, you can still issue your DOS calls by loading (CL) with the request number and calling TPA:0005. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 30 13:07:48 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:07:48 -0600 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A0CB04.9060304@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > any computer that can boot vanilla MS-DOS can boot > PC-DOS. AFAICT... Was there ever a *vanilla* MS-DOS? I've owned an AT&T PC 6300, an Epson 8088 clone, and various Tandy 1000s, and they all came with a customized MS-DOS for their platform. The Epson MS-DOS was probably as generic as possible; the Tandy one had one or two things modified for the keyboard and something else I don't remember; the AT&T one had extra handling of 720K 5.25" disks (the drives were capable of 80 tracks if you set a DIP switch) and the date/time command knew how to talk to the AT&T's clock chip. My friend had a Sperry clone. That had a special MS-DOS that my 6300 could boot, but his Sperry could not boot my 6300's DOS. IIRC, MS-DOS versions 5 and later were mostly sold retail as Microsoft had mostly gotten out of the specialized MS-DOS business (due to lack of demand) by 1990. > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> My point is, that "MS-DOS compatible" covers a >> huge amount of >>> territory. On the other hand, "something that >> will boot from a PC- >>> DOS 3.31 diskette" is quite a bit more >> restrictive. >> >> I agree completely. >> But, I would substitute "PC-DOS 3.30 diskette", >> since I can only find >> 3.31 in MS-DOS (usually with machine specific >> MODE.COM, etc.) >> >> >> > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 30 13:10:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:10:01 -0800 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <200801301800.m0UI06YE020479@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801301800.m0UI06YE020479@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A05B09.6064.F7CF434@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:07:38 -0600 > From: Jim Leonard > > In the early days, it was possible to call BASIC subroutines. But, I > > don't think that they kept the same addresses for long. > > Wow -- while that's cool, what was a useful application for that? > Borrowing the use of the floating-point routines, perhaps? ROM has a > faster access time than RAM, but would it have been all that much faster > than doing it yourself, or would it have just been merely convenient? Any IBM system with BASIC-in-ROM kept the same addresses for subroutines throughout the life of that feature. That's why you can run PC-DOS BASICA only on those machines having the ROM BASIC. For generic MS-DOS, MS supplied GWBASIC as an option (which I still use on my XP-equipped machine when I need to do some quick figuring). Several very early games required BASIC-in-ROM--the basic 5150 shipped with 48K of DRAM, so memory was at a premium. I don't think any productivity tools made use of the ROM BASIC, however. Do any of the IBM diagnostics use it? Cheers, Chuck From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Jan 30 13:16:32 2008 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:16:32 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <1201620779.1041.25.camel@bladerider.local> References: Your message of <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1201620779.1041.25.camel@bladerider.local> Message-ID: <47A0CD10.1090309@netscape.net> What is the desired end result? What is the application? A simple application may not need a "real" networking protocol. If "cluster" means distributed processing, then you have a lot more than just protocols to figure out. Jim Gerold Pauler wrote: > You don't need a ring to use token passing protocols. > There are some token passing protocols implemented > on bus structures (IEEE-802.4 (token bus), PROFIBUS, ...) > > Just my 2c > Gerold > > Am Di, den 29.01.2008 schrieb dwight elvey um 16:15: >> HI >> With a ring, you could use a token but that would require >> a master to start things and restore the ring when it was broken. > ... >> Dwight > > From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 30 13:50:22 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:50:22 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <47A0CD10.1090309@netscape.net> References: Your message of <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1201620779.1041.25.camel@bladerider.local> <47A0CD10.1090309@netscape.net> Message-ID: <47A0D4FE.3010602@jbrain.com> scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > What is the desired end result? What is the application? A simple > application may not need a "real" networking protocol. If "cluster" > means distributed processing, then you have a lot more than just > protocols to figure out. I am not sure exactly what Sellam wanted to do. I told him I would help out. If I can pass a message from one machine to another, I would be happy. By no means does the system need to be TCP/IP or some other high level protocol. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 29 13:36:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:36:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <479F60E8.6010509@netscape.net> from "scheefj@netscape.net" at Jan 29, 8 12:22:48 pm Message-ID: > > This thread illustrates the wide range of interests (and opinions) on > this list, which is one of the reasons the list is a valuable resource. > > I find it interesting that the general consensus is that no one collects > printers. IMHO a vintage computer collection is not complete without > peripherals for I/O. How can the usefulness (or even the limitations) of > a vintage computer be demonstrated without a printer? (ignoring game While I would agree there are applications for which a printer is essential, there are equally things you can do with a (classic) computer that do not need hard copy output. > machines here) Nevertheless, the most collected printers are the ones > tied to collectible vintage machines with odd interfaces, such as HPIL > or HPIB. Many manufacturers, such as Commodore and Apple, made printers Well, if I want to print from one of my old HP machines I'd better have an HPIB printer (convincing soem of them to sue a different interface is an 'entertainmant'. If I want to print out a program listing from my 9830, I'd better make sure the 9866 is working properly, and so on. Whereas my TRS-80s can print on just about any Centronics-interfaced printer. > for their machines. An early Mac needs an AppleWriter next to it. How > can you have a DEC collection without a DEC printer running over > DECconnect or (better) DECNET? Err, what's wrong with a dedciated printer with it's own Omnibus, Unius (or even Qus) card? -tony From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 14:10:11 2008 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:10:11 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel WC1 on Ebay Message-ID: <11c909eb0801301210j2871d5d7p47b94c11df5381fe@mail.gmail.com> Astounding - something genuinely rare on ebay. Item number: 260206754118 I'd have it myselft but alas my loft is full. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 30 14:26:23 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:26:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 29, 2008 07:36:45 PM Message-ID: <200801302026.m0UKQOur018300@onyx.spiritone.com> > > for their machines. An early Mac needs an AppleWriter next to it. How > > can you have a DEC collection without a DEC printer running over > > DECconnect or (better) DECNET? > > Err, what's wrong with a dedciated printer with it's own Omnibus, Unius > (or even Qus) card? Personally I have an LA75 setup on the VT420 connected to my PDP-11, if I need a printout, I tell the VT420 to print out anything sent to the screen. >From VMS I simply through an HP JetDirect box for years I printed viia Appletalk). Zane From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 30 14:39:03 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:39:03 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <479F761C.2050700@jbrain.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <479F761C.2050700@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2008 10:53 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > This was the approach I was leaning towards, as it takes care of the > fanout issues. But, for general purpose use, I was trying to think of a > way to have a node that is turned off have a "bypass". I thought of a > DPDT relay, but then I started to think of what would happen if the > relay closed/opened in the middle of a byte being transferred to the > machine turning off. How would I recover from that. I assume there's a way in software to reset the interface? Just reset the input interface whenever you get a bad packet ID or source address, a bad packet checksum or if packet times out. If you're implementing something with a "resend packet after timeout" dropped packets shouldn't be fatal. Timeouts will have to be long because the packet will travel N hops and the ACK will travel 64-N hops. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 30 14:55:30 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:55:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <47A0CB04.9060304@oldskool.org> References: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <47A0CB04.9060304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080130113717.O91077@shell.lmi.net> > >> since I can only find > >> 3.31 in MS-DOS (usually with machine specific > >> MODE.COM, etc.) > > any computer that can boot vanilla MS-DOS can boot > > PC-DOS. AFAICT... On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Was there ever a *vanilla* MS-DOS? > and they all came with a customized > MS-DOS for their platform. MS-DOS was NEVER sold retail until 5.00. Any copies that you bought before that were either developer support, through a computer OEM, or gray market. (grey market outside of USA) Yes, they were readily available. MICROS~1 did nothing to thwart the gray market. > IIRC, MS-DOS versions 5 and later were mostly sold retail as Microsoft > had mostly gotten out of the specialized MS-DOS business (due to lack of > demand) by 1990. Starting with 5.00, MICROS~1 began selling retail. Mostly unconfirmed rumor: ("I can not publicly confirm that") MICROS~1's contract with IBM had non-competition clauses, and although MICROS~1 could sell to other manufacturers (Compaq, Morrow, ... ... ), they could not sell retail. Those clauses expired in 10 years. It is possible that the release date and time (to the nearest 18.2 of a second) synchronize with the expiration of those clauses. The MS-DOS sold to other OEMs was often customized for alternate hardware. MODE.COM was often specific to a given manufacturer, to include switching between internal and external monitor, etc. Compaq renamed GWBASIC ("Gee Wiz BASIC") to "BASICA", in order to permit PC batch files and documentation to apply better, etc. But many/most of the clone manufacturers made little or NO changes, resulting in gray market MS-DOS being virtually identical to PC-DOS. The most common customized MS-DOS versions were 1.25, 2.11, and 3.31. MS-DOS 1.twenty-five corresponded to IBM's 1.ten, MS-DOS 2.eleven corresponded to IBM's 2.ten, MS-DOS 3.thirty-one was the first version to handle drives larger than 32M; there was no corresponding version of PC-DOS - IBM decided that it was time to increment the major version number. There were some bugs in 4.00, but MOST of the "bugs" were simply that programs that went below the DOS call level (such as Norton fUtilities) weren't prepared for the changes. ("I know that it is buggy! Norton won't run on it, but ran fine on 3.3!") - Infoworld Some variants of MS-DOS 1.00 support 8" drives; PC-DOS didn't until 3.00 (1.2M) PC-DOS first supported 720K drives with V3.20; many MS-DOS 2.11 variants supported them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 30 15:04:01 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:04:01 -0500 Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive emulator? Message-ID: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> Have a look at: http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/cbmhd.htm Ruud's the main guy behind the 1541 IDE project I mentioned to you, (and is on the CBM hacker's list I also mentioned) but he does have an IEEE <> PC project on his site as well. I've been meaning to look at the IEEE version myself; if you try it out, share your experience (as will I if I get to it first). mike --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:19:23 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20080130021923.GA7074 at usap.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Commodore folks, I have just tracked down an ISA IEEE-488 card and was thinking that it might be interesting to use it to build an older PC into a Commodore diskette drive emulator - I recall there are various projects to interface modern hardware to PETs (like the C2N232 I have with me), but the idea in this case is to allow existing apps to work as if there were a real C= drive hanging off the PET's IEEE port. Essentially, the PC would act as closely to, say a 4040, as possible. My thought was that if I had a real IEEE-488 interface, it could handle the physical-layer protocol, and the emulator would only have to handle sending and receiving command strings and data. The virtual diskettes would be, of course, image files. I'm not really as worried about RELative files - more along the lines of "direct access" files where the code running on the PET wants to read and write individual sectors, ignoring the C= DOS filesystem. That is, in fact, the major reason for trying to emulate drives in the first place - if it was just a case of loading and saving streams of data as files, the C2N232 does a fine job of that (and costs on the order of $10 to breadboard). There seem to be a number of ways to emulate C= IEC-bus devices (such as the 1541-III), but not for the IEEE-488. If anyone can point me at any existing projects, even if they are incomplete, it would be a big help. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jan-2008 at 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -34.8 F (-37.1 C) Windchill -57.9 F (-50.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.9 kts Grid 45 Barometer 674.7 mb (10829 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 30 15:13:05 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:13:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801300939o703d5432n2a7e1ac73cc1a105@mail.gmail.com> from John Floren at "Jan 30, 8 09:39:27 am" Message-ID: <200801302113.m0ULD6d1013992@floodgap.com> > > You forgot: > > > > 1) Get Commodore 64s > > 2) ??? > > 3) Profit! > > > > Gordon > > > > I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. .sig dibs! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 30 14:05:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:05:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: YouTube videos of vintage PDP-11/40, ASR-33, VT05, etc In-Reply-To: <479FFF10.9000209@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jan 30, 8 05:37:36 am Message-ID: > > > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > press cntrl +G > That's the OTHER bell! The ASR has an automatic line end bell AND rings > on 0x07! It's the same physical gong, though. -tony From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 30 16:22:42 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:22:42 -0800 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080130113717.O91077@shell.lmi.net> References: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <47A0CB04.9060304@oldskool.org> <20080130113717.O91077@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2008 12:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > MS-DOS was NEVER sold retail until 5.00. > Any copies that you bought before that were either developer support, > through a computer OEM, or gray market. (grey market outside of USA) I think you meant to say "NEVER sold retail under the Microsoft brand name". You could certainly find "branded" MS-DOS on store shelves well before MS-DOS 5. I've got a copy of "Phoenix MS-DOS 3.31" in retail packaging, complete with way to hang it from a pegboard hook. I don't know if Phoenix (the BIOS makers) were violating an agreement in packaging it this way, or if the store I bought it from was doing something shady. No computer purchase was necessary to buy a copy. Just grab it and bring it to the register. I think that counts as retail. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 30 16:22:42 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:22:42 -0800 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080130113717.O91077@shell.lmi.net> References: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <47A0CB04.9060304@oldskool.org> <20080130113717.O91077@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2008 12:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > MS-DOS was NEVER sold retail until 5.00. > Any copies that you bought before that were either developer support, > through a computer OEM, or gray market. (grey market outside of USA) I think you meant to say "NEVER sold retail under the Microsoft brand name". You could certainly find "branded" MS-DOS on store shelves well before MS-DOS 5. I've got a copy of "Phoenix MS-DOS 3.31" in retail packaging, complete with way to hang it from a pegboard hook. I don't know if Phoenix (the BIOS makers) were violating an agreement in packaging it this way, or if the store I bought it from was doing something shady. No computer purchase was necessary to buy a copy. Just grab it and bring it to the register. I think that counts as retail. Eric From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Jan 30 16:28:46 2008 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:28:46 +0000 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1201732126.6660.23.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 09:57 -0800, Eric J Korpela wrote: > The easiest is a ring with packet forwardings. Each machine has its > output connected to one machine and its input connected to another. > This is probably the simplest hardware wise and software wise. It's > also the slowest. When a packet comes in, its destination address is > checked against the current machines address. If it doesn't match, it > is forwarded to the next machine. No collision detection is > necessary. One potential problem is that a packet with a bad address > can circulate forever unless you have a way of detecting it. Many years ago I implemented a simple network using a single full-duplex RS-232 port per node, connected in a simple ring. The only features I remember at the moment were that each packet started with a flag byte and destination address. In addition to the one-byte latency required of the serial receive/transmit process, there was an additional one-byte buffer so if the address byte matched then the header byte was not passed on and the message would be absorbed by the destination node. Message bytes had to be contiguous, so a gap of more than (say) 1 character was deemed to indicate a fault. Because of the latency, the forwarding node had the option of not passing on the last byte, so any such packet would have one byte removed per node it passed through. Also, if the entire packet was passed through but the CRC failed, the last CRC byte wasn't passed on, initiating the message chomping process. Oh happy memories! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 30 16:51:11 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:51:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: References: <131615.8659.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <47A0CB04.9060304@oldskool.org> <20080130113717.O91077@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080130144826.X1291@shell.lmi.net> > > MS-DOS was NEVER sold retail until 5.00. > > > Any copies that you bought before that were either developer support, > > through a computer OEM, or gray market. (grey market outside of USA) On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I think you meant to say "NEVER sold retail under the Microsoft brand > name". You could certainly find "branded" MS-DOS on store shelves > well before MS-DOS 5. I've got a copy of "Phoenix MS-DOS 3.31" in > retail packaging, complete with way to hang it from a pegboard hook. > I don't know if Phoenix (the BIOS makers) were violating an agreement > in packaging it this way, or if the store I bought it from was doing > something shady. No computer purchase was necessary to buy a copy. > Just grab it and bring it to the register. I think that counts as > retail. Gray market IS often retail. Valid, legitimate copies from a user perspective, but NOT explicitly authorized as retail. Those "branded" copies were not sold under the MICROS~1 brand. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 17:01:23 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:01:23 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel WC1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0801301210j2871d5d7p47b94c11df5381fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0801301210j2871d5d7p47b94c11df5381fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47A101C3.4030807@gmail.com> Pete Edwards wrote: > Astounding - something genuinely rare on ebay. > Item number: 260206754118 > I'd have it myselft but alas my loft is full. Curious... what's a WC1? I've only come across the MG-1 (lots of times!) and the CG-200 before; does the 'WC' signify an early/late release of one of those two? For anyone bidding, it'd be worth asking the seller to pull the case lid and have a look inside; if this system has the same PSU setup as the others then the batteries have probably spewed their guts all over the PCB :( cheers Jules From doug at stillhq.com Wed Jan 30 17:24:54 2008 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson - pesonal email) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:24:54 +1100 Subject: 2716 with 100 nS access time - Lessons learnt by a Trainee Technical Officer in the dim, distant past... In-Reply-To: <200801261322.m0QDM1Fx056441@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801261322.m0QDM1Fx056441@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A10746.9080503@stillhq.com> Jos, You have sparked a funny (now) memory from my long distant past. In my youth, I had a Rockwell 65F11 SBC board, with a FDC, that was a small scale Forth development system. I spent many many hours writing code on it. One day, I decided that it needed a memory upgrade, and I designed a card to sit on top of the entire PCB that had buckets of ram (48K from memory??). As a trainee, I thought that I would be clever, an instead of laying out all of that tedious memory decode logic, I would use a 2732, and simply write a big decode matrix. (It worked beautifully for a traffic light controller state machine I did a little earlier...) So, I created an awesome memory upgrade PCB (with tape on film - 2 sided) - Photo reduce - expose - etch - drill - populate, etc, etc......All to discover that it didn't work.. After hours of trying to find the problem, I sheepishly approached one of the Senior Technical Officers, who suggested with a smile, that I connect a logic analyser to see what was happening... Low and behold - the CS* signal never got around to appearing before the memory was read. That day, I truly found out what 450nS access time actually meant. All to try to avoid mucking around with those pesky single use proms... Interestingly enough, a year or so later, I fitted one of those massive 62256 to get all of the memory I needed. Wo hoo. I hope you find a solution. BTW, does anybody remember the wierd diode logic decode that the TRS-80 model 1 used.... I tried that once as well, and discovered that you couldn't use silicon, and that only germanium worked. -- Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE Principal Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 30 17:30:13 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:30:13 -0600 Subject: Whitechapel WC1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <47A101C3.4030807@gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0801301210j2871d5d7p47b94c11df5381fe@mail.gmail.com> <47A101C3.4030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47A10885.7060907@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Pete Edwards wrote: >> Astounding - something genuinely rare on ebay. >> Item number: 260206754118 >> I'd have it myselft but alas my loft is full. > > Curious... what's a WC1? I've only come across the MG-1 (lots of times!) > and the CG-200 before; does the 'WC' signify an early/late release of > one of those two? > > For anyone bidding, it'd be worth asking the seller to pull the case lid > and have a look inside; if this system has the same PSU setup as the > others then the batteries have probably spewed their guts all over the > PCB :( David Erhart can jump in here, as Sage computers are his specialty, but Whitechapel sold a flavor of Unix that ran on the Sage machines. The Sage was 68K based, and a quick google says that the WC1 was National 32K based. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jan 30 17:49:38 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:49:38 -0500 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47A10D12.3010603@nktelco.net> Eric J Korpela wrote: > The easiest is a ring with packet forwardings. Each machine has its > output connected to one machine and its input connected to another. > This is probably the simplest hardware wise and software wise. It's > also the slowest. When a packet comes in, its destination address is > checked against the current machines address. If it doesn't match, it > is forwarded to the next machine. No collision detection is > necessary. One potential problem is that a packet with a bad address > can circulate forever unless you have a way of detecting it. > This reminds me of the network in the original XINU book. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jan 30 18:06:29 2008 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:06:29 -0600 Subject: HP-UX install tape available Message-ID: <000701c8639d$2120c470$176fa8c0@obie> I have an HP DDS cartridge labelled "HP-UX Install S800 / HP-UX 10.10 Release / For the HP9000 S800". Marked as 1 of 1, SD FMT, P/N B3920-13427. Available for cost of postage. Email me off-list Jack No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.16/1250 - Release Date: 1/29/2008 10:20 PM From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 30 18:11:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:11:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <47A0580B.3084.F714575@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801301800.m0UI06YE020479@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A0580B.3084.F714575@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080130160705.E1291@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > DRI, for its part, seemed to remain blissfully ignorant of both of > these aspects. Or refusing to accept. I asked Gary Kildall, "Now that most commercial machines are going to 5.25 inch disks, what is the STANDARD format for 5.25?" He answered, "8 inch single sided single density." We all miss him. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 30 18:21:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:21:31 -0800 Subject: How compatible were "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A0A40B.13097.109A24A9@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:07:48 -0600 > From: Jim Leonard > Was there ever a *vanilla* MS-DOS? Short answer--yes. It was called an "OEM Kit". Basically, you got the binaries and instructions on how and what I/O drivers to write and you linked the whole mess together to form two files, IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS, though you weren't confined to those names. Many utilities, such as MODE and FORMAT were provided in skeleton form with the vendor filling out the details. This lead to a some interesting variations on MODE. For example, the Grid MS-DOS version of MODE allows one to control the power status of the peripherals and a whole bunch of other things. I may even still have the OEM documentation wandering around somewhere, printed up on fading tractor-feed paper. A key difference between the two OEM arrangements was that you agreed to serialize the copies of DRI products that were sold, while Microsoft didn't require that. I think that MS simply charged you on the basis of the number of systems shipped--I'd have to go back to my files to make sure. When you get that "Synchronization error" message from MOVCPM, it means that MOVCPM has compared the serial number of the copy of CP/M that it contains with the one of the system on which it's running and the two don't match. Easy to patch out, however--but beware if you "fill out" your CP/M disk with another's files. Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 30 18:36:08 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:36:08 -0600 Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A117F8.7000001@jbrain.com> >> I find it interesting that the general consensus is that no one collects >> printers. IMHO a vintage computer collection is not complete without >> peripherals for I/O. How can the usefulness (or even the limitations) of >> a vintage computer be demonstrated without a printer? (ignoring game >> Sorry for the delayed response. I collect CBM printers. I would assume there is less interest in collecting printers, since we didn't get all teary eyed at the first printout, etc. But, I have a CBM 1526/MP802 here I would never part with, mainly because I did get all teary-eyed over it. Well, let me explain: When the Commodore VIC-20 and C64 came out, your choices were the VIC 1515 (through some micommunication with EPSON or SEIKO or whomever made it, it was a 7.5" wide paper printer. Someone thought 8.5" meant the entire width of the paper, including sprocket holes) and the VIC 1525, which were both 7 bit printers without true descenders. For my part, I had a Gorilla Banana, which was the same mech and case as a VIC1525, but with Centronics port. I think both were a SEIKOSHA GP-100. I wanted to upgrade to an 8 pin printer, but I detested the issues of using a Centronics printer with the CBM, so I wanted a CBM model. I bought a MPS802 (same as 1526) printer, and I was happy for a while. Then came GEOS, and I decided to print out a paper with it. Then is when I realized the 1526/MPS802 has no graphics mode. Yes, a dot matrix printer of early '80s vintage with no graphics mode. However, it did have 1 redefinable character and you could define it once per line. Someone wrote a device driver for GEOS that made printing work, at great cost. To print graphics, one must redefine the 8x8 char, print it, do a CR without LF, redefine it, tab over, print, repeat 80 times. I wanted to return it, but it was too late, and I did not have funds to replace it. I was teary eyed watching my final term paper in 1989 slowly emerge from the MPS802, one agonizing character after another. You got in the habit of printing your papers in 1 page increments so you could oil and rest the printer in between. Luckily the mech was smart enough not to return to home after each CR, it just stayed in the same place. I should have done a better job researching, as the MPS802/1526 was just a CBM 4023 printer with the IEEE board swapped out for a IEC-based one. It has the same issues. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 30 19:44:58 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:44:58 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <47A0D4FE.3010602@jbrain.com> References: Your message of <200801291300.m0TD0YkH013517@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1201620779.1041.25.camel@bladerider.local> <47A0CD10.1090309@netscape.net> <47A0D4FE.3010602@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47A1281A.5070002@brutman.com> Well, maybe a good place to start would be to gather requirements. ;-0 I've always been intrigued by the Ethernet solutions for the C64. Having Ethernet is a great solution. Many of the solutions out there only need a few I/O ports for interfacing, and with some onboard RAM you have buffering that allows the host machine to do real work without constantly polling the interface. (Well, you still poll the interface, but you get some breathing room for real work.) It's also really easy to send packets on an Ethernet. You don't have to get fancy and do the full TCP/IP thing. (Nor should you on a C54.) The physical link layer does the CRC for you, so you can do a simple protocol on top of that. Mike From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jan 30 19:48:13 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:48:13 -0500 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> Don North wrote: > > Try ftp://moe.2bsd.com/pub/2.11BSD/ > Is this open? I get effectively a connection refused. I talked to Steven Schultz several years ago and recall that the ftp address was with permission only or at least it was heavily spam filtered and he had to open it for me. TUHS has patch level 431 from 2000. If Steven is OK with it, is there a reason that the subsequent patches are not archived somewhere more accessible? -chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Jan 30 15:16:01 2008 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:16:01 +0000 Subject: got 80251 microcontroller PLCC 44 pin? Message-ID: <6bpls7$59r3on@toip6.srvr.bell.ca> I was working on a monitor, this is romless version but I can take other type as long as I can jumper it to disable the internal programming. I'm fixing a monitor with a flaky 80251. Seems to have many pins output low clocked pulses/noies laid on the signals. The main filters are good, the linear regulators are clean and quiet. Got this microcontroller to spare? Cheers, Wizard From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jan 30 20:35:51 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801310236.m0V2ZqmU012448@mail.itm-inst.com> At 03:25 PM 1/29/2008, Harten wrote: >Hi! > >I'm a Computer collector from Germany and the last 3 years i spend a lot >of time in reconstructing and repairing my PDP11/05 along with its >peripheral devices (2x RK05,RX02,BA11ES). >Noe that these things are working im trying to repair my LA180-PD printer, >that was in no good condition. >With a copy of the logic-prints i was able to find some faulty IC's on >th logic board- but there must be at least one more. >On Power-Up the carriage starts to move back to left edge but stopps >before >reaching the left end then the bell is turned on permanently. >There is no reaction on any button pressed or switched over. > >Unfortunately i have no Maintenance Manual or Logic description, maybe >there >is a person out on this list who can help me with a copy of the >documents. What you want is the maintenance manual, EK-LA180-MM. That has schematics, logic description, adjustments, etc. I've got a copy if it's not available online anywhere. Manx doesn't have a copy and I don't know if there's a copy anywhere else. I'd prefer to give this to someone with the ability to get it scanned and put online, otherwise you're welcome to it. -Rick From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 30 20:42:40 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:42:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer In-Reply-To: <200801310236.m0V2ZqmU012448@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200801310236.m0V2ZqmU012448@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200801310244.VAA29055@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'd prefer to give this to someone with the ability to get it scanned > and put online, otherwise you're welcome to it. Provided a flatbed scanner will do (eg, perfect-bound works only if there's not much print near the binding), I can scan it. If the result isn't too big, I can host it too, otherwise I'd have to turn that job over to someone else (bitsavers?). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jan 30 20:59:45 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:59:45 -0500 Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer In-Reply-To: <200801310244.VAA29055@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200801310236.m0V2ZqmU012448@mail.itm-inst.com> <200801310244.VAA29055@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200801310259.m0V2xkHY012490@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:42 PM 1/30/2008, der Mouse wrote: > > I'd prefer to give this to someone with the ability to get it scanned > > and put online, otherwise you're welcome to it. > >Provided a flatbed scanner will do (eg, perfect-bound works only if >there's not much print near the binding), I can scan it. If the result >isn't too big, I can host it too, otherwise I'd have to turn that job >over to someone else (bitsavers?). It's three-hole punched separate sheets, so it'd be easily done if quite tedious (there's a LOT of sheets, probably 100 plus double-sided pages, with several fold-out 8 1/2 by 22 or so sheets with schematics. -Rick From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 30 21:06:46 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:06:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer In-Reply-To: <200801310259.m0V2xkHY012490@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200801310236.m0V2ZqmU012448@mail.itm-inst.com> <200801310244.VAA29055@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200801310259.m0V2xkHY012490@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200801310308.WAA29262@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Provided a flatbed scanner will do [...], I can scan it. If the >> result isn't too big, I can host it too, otherwise I'd have to turn >> that job over to someone else (bitsavers?). > It's three-hole punched separate sheets, so it'd be easily done if > quite tedious (there's a LOT of sheets, probably 100 plus > double-sided pages, with several fold-out 8 1/2 by 22 or so sheets > with schematics. Unless someone is in a hurry, that is not a problem. I'd just do it in multiple batches over a few days, if I get bored or short of time. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 30 21:12:16 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:12:16 -0500 Subject: Q-BUS primer? Message-ID: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> Hi Guys, Recently acquired a goodly amount of DEC gear - I had put the Q-BUS stuff aside while I got the "all in one" VAXstation/VAXservers up and running, but I'm starting to collect information - I've no experience whatsoever with Q-bus, but from what I've read, I understand that it will take a bit of research to determine how to properly configure and position the boards. I'm hoping that I have enough material to built up at least one (possibly 2) nice little PDP-11's, and/or a MicroVax II) At this point, all I'm really looking for is a good "starting point". Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie? Btw, this is what I've got - If there's anything I'm obviously missing, or will have to find extra parts for, please advise me so that I can start looking... Three chassis: BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a "MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it. I don't know the model numbers for the next two: - One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the front beside the panel. - The last one is the smallest, looks much like the one above, complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no power supply or console panel. I've got the following DEC Q-BUS cards: (Descriptions taken from the "Field Guide to Q-BUS and Unbus modules" M3106 4-line async M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword RAM M7504 Ethernet adapter (older DEQNA) M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50 M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller M7606 MicroVAX II KA630 M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated) M7940 x2 SLU Module M7944 x3 4-Kword RAM M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller M8043 x2 4-SLU peripheral interface M8044DB x2 32Kword RAM M8044DF x2 32Kword RAM M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs M8186 11/23 CPU M9047 Grant continuity M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know anything about these, other than the identifying marks found on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them appear to be media controllers of one sort or another). Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge) Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge) TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge) Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge) SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge) Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge) Sigma Information Systems Assy 40100 - This board has one 40 + one 50 pin connector, and a place to populate another 40 pin - none are at the front edge. W951 "Flip Chip" - This board has places for various sized chips (most of them populated) with pins to wire-wrap connections between them - looks like some sort of prototyping board. + A couple of the little grant continuity boards. I don't expect this to be a short journy, but it should be interesting... Thanks in advance for any advice/tips. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From fu3.org at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 21:31:35 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (from@fu3.org) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 04:31:35 +0100 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <7d3530220801300939o703d5432n2a7e1ac73cc1a105@mail.gmail.com> References: <479E9DF1.9010506@jbrain.com> <47A0ACF4.6000003@oldskool.org> <7d3530220801300904v16086917w6f95c42ed4be3ab5@mail.gmail.com> <200801301718.48045.gordonjcp@gjcp.net> <7d3530220801300939o703d5432n2a7e1ac73cc1a105@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0801301931k7894fdcbua3881c09958d5e8b@mail.gmail.com> 2008/1/30, John Floren : > On Jan 30, 2008 9:18 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > On Wednesday 30 January 2008 17:04:32 John Floren wrote: > > > > > You know, I forgot to say this earlier... but make sure to put this on > > > Slashdot when you get it working, it's the perfect /. story :) Just > > > don't host the site on a C64. > > > Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those... pouring hot grits down the C64's > > > pants... in Soviet Russia, C64's cluster YOU! > > > > You forgot: > > > > 1) Get Commodore 64s > > 2) ??? > > 3) Profit! > > > > Gordon > > > > I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. > And, in this particular case; .. '64kb should be enough for anybody.' From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jan 30 22:19:38 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:19:38 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> Charles H Dickman wrote: > Don North wrote: >> >> Try ftp://moe.2bsd.com/pub/2.11BSD/ >> > Is this open? I get effectively a connection refused. > > I talked to Steven Schultz several years ago and recall that the ftp > address was with permission only or at least it was heavily spam > filtered and he had to open it for me. > > TUHS has patch level 431 from 2000. > > If Steven is OK with it, is there a reason that the subsequent patches > are not archived somewhere more accessible? > > -chuck I can still click on the link above, and get to the files and download them. Dunno, maybe it is your ISP being blocked somehow? It probably would be a good idea to mirror these files somewhere else if this is not already being done. Don From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 30 22:25:31 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:25:31 -0600 Subject: Digitalker Information Message-ID: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> My son and I watched War Games a few nights back, and I pulled out my old Jameco JE520 speech synthesizer. We played with it a bit tonight, and it has a bad EPROM #2, so the upper half of the first word set is garbled. Questions: * Anyone have a JE520 that could copy the ROM? * Or, anyone have other ROMs for the DIGITALKER (soft copies, that is)? * Anyone have a datasheet on this device? NS54104 Jim From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jan 30 22:38:46 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:38:46 -0500 Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer Message-ID: <8CA31DA4D2D4E97-8E0-20F5@MBLK-M34.sysops.aol.com> I'm assuming you've already verified that the carriage isn't binding, by trying to move the print head with the printer turned off, so we'll skip that step. If the carriage is moving, and suddenly stops, with a continuous error bell, it's possible that there is something wrong with the head positioning electronics. The motor that moves the print head has an encoder wheel on the back of it, which of course is monitored by the logic board. I would GUESS that if the printer doesn't see any feedback from the encoder, that it would stop the print head, and turn on the warning bell. I have one of these at home, with the classic "head slam" problem, which is also related to the encoder and/or electronics. It will print, but when returning to the left-hand side, it will start with a gentle tap while it's printing, then a bit louder, then a bit louder, as the carriage slams harder and harder up against the left stop plate. Finally, it stops, and the bell sounds. In this instance, it's losing track of where the print head is. I haven't had time to isolate the problem myself, but it sounds like you're having problems along the same lines. I would check the connections to the encoder wheel. . . the encoder wheel itself, (sometimes they get dust / dirt inside the enclosure, which interferes with operation), then the infrared sensors, and related circuitry on the board. Tim ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Jan 30 23:07:23 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:07:23 +0100 Subject: Whitechapel WC1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <47A10885.7060907@pacbell.net> References: <11c909eb0801301210j2871d5d7p47b94c11df5381fe@mail.gmail.com> <47A101C3.4030807@gmail.com> <47A10885.7060907@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <47A1578B.5040800@bluewin.ch> > David Erhart can jump in here, as Sage computers are his specialty, but > Whitechapel sold a flavor of Unix that ran on the Sage machines. The > Sage was 68K based, and a quick google says that the WC1 was National > 32K based. > Sadly an UK only auction. I see it has the Depraz mouse I was after ( have one now ) How often to Sages come up ? Jos From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 23:20:57 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:20:57 -0600 Subject: Dosbox and TOPAS working! Message-ID: After some serious hacking, with this 3d animation program, I have it running under DOSBox!!! Next questions: 1. Its a really cool program, expensive in its day, but abandoned by its owner AT&T who got out of the graphics business about 1993 or so. What have others done, to get the OK to post these type programs somewhere. (Im thinking about the Mame arcade emulator guys, who never were able to post the ROMs) 2. How can you free up the dosbox mouse to get back to a windows control so I can grab a screenshot? Dosbox is cool! Randy _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 31 01:00:24 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 01:00:24 -0600 Subject: Dosbox and TOPAS working! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A17208.9090001@oldskool.org> Randy Dawson wrote: > After some serious hacking, with this 3d animation program, I have it running under DOSBox!!! Wow, I'm amazed. Most people who say "I've got the source, I'll hack it in" usually can't. Of course, I keep forgetting who is in this list ;-) > 2. How can you free up the dosbox mouse to get back to a windows control so I can grab a screenshot? ctrl-tab will get you out of a window; alt-enter will get a full-screen back to a window so you can ctrl-tab. But if you really have it working, just do the screenshot key to take a shot (it's F5 or CTRL-F5 depending on which version you hacked) > Dosbox is cool! When you don't need cycle-exact timing, sure :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 16:57:18 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:57:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: never knew DOS system files were resettable Message-ID: <5495.65794.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> is there any way to make these visible? I'm trying to do something funky, and for some reason XP won't *visualize* the hidden files on a boot disk (bootdisk.com). I tried unhiding them with attrib, but it tells me uh uh. What to do? Yes I did change my folder option to display hidden files, but to no avail. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jrzagar at gmail.com Tue Jan 29 18:08:53 2008 From: jrzagar at gmail.com (Randy Zagar) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:08:53 -0600 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? Message-ID: <28fa50ba0801291608g24294317uc6d6e0620b1056bd@mail.gmail.com> Looks like this feature of WWIV will be important in a patent lawsuit by Trend Micro. Trend Micro claims to have a valid 1995 patent for doing virus scanning on email servers, and many of their claims appear to be well-known capabilities that WWIV had well before 1995 For mor information on this please look at this article: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080125135544713 -RZ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Jan 30 02:52:53 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:52:53 -0000 Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3905DD04@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> On switch on the printer will seek the margin. If there's a problem with the position encoder or photocell the motor will not stop. With the printer off make sure the head carriage is free to move and the bar it slides on is not bent. You can put a little oil on the head slider bar. As with above if the head jams before it gets to the rest position. The stall current from the motor will trip the alarm. Rod Smallwood DEC Terminals Product Line 1975 - 1978 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Harten Sent: 29 January 2008 20:25 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Help needed on a DEC LA180 printer Hi! I'm a Computer collector from Germany and the last 3 years i spend a lot of time in reconstructing and repairing my PDP11/05 along with its peripheral devices (2x RK05,RX02,BA11ES). Noe that these things are working im trying to repair my LA180-PD printer, that was in no good condition. With a copy of the logic-prints i was able to find some faulty IC's on th logic board- but there must be at least one more. On Power-Up the carriage starts to move back to left edge but stopps before reaching the left end then the bell is turned on permanently. There is no reaction on any button pressed or switched over. Unfortunately i have no Maintenance Manual or Logic description, maybe there is a person out on this list who can help me with a copy of the documents. Regards Axel Harten. From pichotjm at free.fr Wed Jan 30 06:01:29 2008 From: pichotjm at free.fr (pichotjm) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:01:29 +0100 Subject: .. 1973... Intertechnique Multi 8 / Microdata 800-1600 Message-ID: <002901c86337$d92857b0$2601a8c0@JM3800> Hi, Thanks for information. I have added your comment on my http://pichotjm.free.fr/Multi8/Multi8.html page. Do you accept that? I have found 2 more photos showing me working with another Multi 8 configuration, but i have to restore them (many scratches, white dots...)! May be from 1972. I was debugging one of these applications: http://pichotjm.free.fr/Techno73/Applis/Applis.html Electronic contains the first microprocessor 4004. Unfortunatly, i have no document about this. JMP From steve51158 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 07:25:00 2008 From: steve51158 at hotmail.com (stephen grimes) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:25:00 +0000 Subject: DEC Highnote P8x Message-ID: Hi sorry to bother you,I came across a CCtalk archive from Nov 2003 regarding power supply pin out connections for a DEC Highnote notebook.I have recently aquired one of these but have the same problem,no power supply,I have an old non working DELL adapter which looks to have the same connector so if you still have the info on the connections that would be a big help,thank you. _________________________________________________________________ Share what Santa brought you https://www.mycooluncool.com From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 30 08:44:40 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:44:40 +0100 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> Message-ID: <47A08D58.6030108@iais.fraunhofer.de> Joshua Alexander Dersch schrieb: > scheefj at netscape.net writes: >> In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's I/O >> thru DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. > > Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it > commonplace for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS > calls and wrote directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems like > CP/M developers were more disciplined in this fashion, but maybe it's > just because in the CP/M arena there were so many different pieces of > hardware it was the only way to do it? (Whereas with IBM, the PC was > seen as more of a reference standard, even if it wasn't really that > way in the beginning?) MS-DOS and CP/M were suffering from similar problems. For CP/M, namely the 1.x and 2.x versions, the difficulty was that the BIOS was not sufficient to abstract all hardware that was available. Typically, floppy low level formatters had to be written to directly talk to the FDC rather than having an available call "format the floppy in drive A:" as there were so many different FDC boards. The interrupt and DMA handling was also lousy thanks to DR abusing some 8080 and even worse Z80 RST vector locations for the BDOS and CCP buffers and FCBs. Finally, there was no portable way of abstracting additional serial or parallel ports that did not fit into the IOBYTE scheme. The whole improved somewhat with CPM+, but still was not good enough to allow writing portable code. MSDOS was much better in abstracting hardware, because it had a loadable driver concept. Difficulty was again the BIOS which required to be "IBM compatible". For the original IBM PC and XT BIOS, Microsoft made some hacks of not calling the official entry points but also silently jumping into unofficial locations which forced them to be fixed and supported in later AT and AT386 and particularly clone BIOS. Unfortunately, IBM hardware developers didn't define reasonable interfaces to the hardware interrupts in the BIOS already, but left this task to the OS. While it was possible to access serial lines through BIOS software interrupts, these were (compatibility to old CP/M?) polling interfaces, that didn't use the available interrupt controllers. Effect was that some hardware vendors implemented such interfaces differently, and provided some loadable drivers, but prominently, software vendors who made serial communications software, like Procomm, pc-terminal etc. again wrote their own, less portable interrupt-driven,direct-I/O software because I/O through BIOS was unusable except for 110 Baud TTYs. When 640K was found to be insufficient, numerous unportable solutions came up to increase memory, from EMS to XMS, filling the gaps between video memory and extension ROMs, and reusing the wraparound bug of the 286 that allowed to access 64K beyond 1M without protected mode. The A20 gate came from there, but when I once disassembled and analyzed HIMEM.SYS, I found about a dozen different ways to switch this bit - through KBD controller, certain chipset ports, through some reserved memory cells, by issuing some obscure interrupt. Intels LOADALL also was played out there - everything done to circumvent the deficiency of the original design. Point is there in both cases: the hardware designers did not foresee how their hardware could or should be used by software, so they basically implanted the bare chips, not even respecting IRQ and DMA requirements; the OS developers did not foresee usable and extensible interfaces to access and abstract various hardware and just hacked something that it would somehow work; and finally the application designers found the whole base OS functions where plain unusable and reinvented, each one differently, the wheel, leaving burnt ground for others that somehow required similar functions - "thou shall not use the printer port for your dongle, I have it already." -- Holger From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 30 10:34:35 2008 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:34:35 -0500 Subject: Any word on OS/2 for PDP-11? Message-ID: <20080130163435.6C1FEBA49A4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I don't follow the mailing list closely, but earlier this month folks were talking about a tape supposedly labeled "OS/2" for the PDP-11. My gut feeling is that this is something like how "ASCII" sometimes becomes "ASC-eleven" or even "ASC2" among those who don't know what's a roman numeral vs digits vs whatever. Possibly DOS-11 became D OS-11 became OS/2 :-). But DOS-11 on a TK50 would be unusual in any event! Finding, say, a late version of RT-11 or RSX-11 or RSTS/E or Ultrix-11 on a TK50 seems far more likely. Almost all PDP-11 OS's have an "11" in the name, usually at the end, and it's easy to see how this could become a "2" in the mind of someone who thinks that there is a VAX named Saul or SOL. Tim. From harten at injectstar.de Wed Jan 30 13:27:01 2008 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:27:01 +0200 Subject: DEC LA180 printer Message-ID: <0f7a6a694f.harten@injectstar.de> I slipped off the belt from the motor pulley. Now the motor can turn without moving the carriage. I tried to turn the motor by hand (power off) and it can be turned easily. On power up the motor starts to turn for about one second and then stopps with the bell continously beeping (till power off). I observed the signals -carry-, -borrow- and -inc- with an oscilloscope. They are there when the motor turns but are the timings o.k.? Regards Axel Harten. From josecvalle at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 14:03:48 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (jose carlos valle) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:03:48 -0200 Subject: some free DEC boxes in boston area - pickup only In-Reply-To: References: <200801301809.m0UI9cgS005635@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Zane.. Hello, from Computer Museum Brazil. I am curator of Museu do Computador , my name Jose Carlos Valle, I will apreciatte to pick up. Please could you send photo of that material? I would like to get it to my Museum here in Brazil. But, I have a friend mine in Dallas, TX, Richard, he will get it and will send to me. Thanks Jose Carlos Valle http://computermuseumbrazil.blogspot.com www.museudocomputador.com.br 2008/1/30, Zane H. Healy : > > At 1:09 PM -0500 1/30/08, Brad Parker wrote: > >- working BA123 cabinet (with wheels!); no disks, no floppy, no boards, > > no front panel. I think I have the sides, no guarantee. But the p/s > > works fine. Great if you need an open qbus chassis. Plus makes a > nice > > coffee table. > > If you've got all the sides and intact wheels, this is well worth > saving. Even if it is for a VAX, nothing says someone can't > "upgrade" it to a PDP-11. I'd classify it more of an end-table > personally, and I actually used one that way for a few years. > > With a little effort you can also keep a VT420 and LA75 on top of it > and use both. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > -- Jose Carlos Valle Museu do Computador & Futuro da Tecnologia tel:+5511-8609-7410 Brazil From elazzerini at interfree.it Wed Jan 30 15:00:46 2008 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:00:46 +0100 Subject: ps2 to ascii keyboard converter Message-ID: <4784F42600E20862@joe.mail.tiscali.sys> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Hi at all, i'm working to make alive my bigboard 1. It has input for a parallel keyboard so I'd like to build or to know where to find an interface to convert a ps2 keyboard in parallel way. Well here http://www.rasmicro.com/FTP/an434.pdf there is a schematic to convert ps2 to IIC way. What I asking for is: 1) Is there anyone who know the way to modify the assembly to make the 8xc751 working on its p1.0 to p1.7 output to generate a parallel ascii code corresponding to the key pressed on the ps2 keyboard? 2) What could be the programmer to save the program onto the 8xc751? Thanks Enrico From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jan 30 17:03:54 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:03:54 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? Message-ID: <0JVH002D8BXGYNW9@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:27:25 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jan 29, 2008, at 4:33 PM, Joshua Alexander Dersch wrote: >>> In the early-mid 80's a program was "well behaved" if it did it's >>> I/O thru DOS calls. Those programs would run on just about anything. >> >> Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it >> commonplace for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS >> calls and wrote directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems >> like CP/M developers were more disciplined in this fashion, but >> maybe it's just because in the CP/M arena there were so many >> different pieces of hardware it was the only way to do it? >> (Whereas with IBM, the PC was seen as more of a reference standard, >> even if it wasn't really that way in the beginning?) >> I'd be interested to hear opinions from people who were there at >> the time, since it was a little before my time. > > I was there; I was a CP/M weenie for many years. I still use it >from time to time; it's lots of fun. > > The CP/M BIOS definition doesn't provide for all the things a user >might want his/her hardware to do. Accessing serial ports >efficiently is one thing...Some popular CP/M communications programs, >such as the MODEM7 family, used the concept of "overlays" (not the >kind that we use in the PDP-11 world!), which are assembly language >modules which are written for your specific hardware that present a >unified (BIOS-like!) interface to the rest of the MODEM7 code. It >was intended that end users would write these routines for their >specific hardware. (in a day when end users were typically highly >technical people) > > Formatting floppy disks is another example. The CP/M BIOS has no >provision for floppy disk formatting, so a formatter program had to >be written for each floppy controller, and it accessed the >controller's registers directly to perform the formatting (and >sometimes verification) function. > > Other than specialized hardware (lab I/O, speech synthesizers, >real-time clocks) there weren't many instances of programs directly >accessing I/O in my experience. Another way to say that is if the application used BDOS calls there was a near 100% assurance of proper operation. If it did BIOS calls corectly that was near 100% as well. If it played with hardware direct all bets were off. Generally the hardware was simple enough that was a minor issue. The most common case was extra serial IO (modems and the like). Even then there is a YABUT.. If the system was IO interrupt driven and also fully implemented IObyte then doing modem IO was a easy task. The problem with that is CP/M didn't REQUIRE it but would certainly be nicer to use if you had it. Therein lies the statement: Most BIOS were minimal implmentations. It was the Ampro's, Kaypros, DEC vt180 and many others that were more than minimal BIOS and those you could actually count on more things as the bios did the lifting. Allison > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jan 30 17:27:23 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:27:23 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? Message-ID: <0JVH005D4D5CCIG4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:57:15 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> From: "Joshua Alexander Dersch": > >> Were there similar problems in the CP/M world? That is, was it >> commonplace for there to be CP/M programs that bypassed CP/M BDOS calls >> and wrote directly to a specific machine's hardware? Seems like CP/M >> developers were more disciplined in this fashion, but maybe it's just >> because in the CP/M arena there were so many different pieces of hardware >> it was the only way to do it? (Whereas with IBM, the PC was seen as more >> of a reference standard, even if it wasn't really that way in the >> beginning?) > >The great thing about CP/M (and I'm talking about the 8-bit version >here) was that it imposed a file system and made disk I/O uniform-- >128 byte sectors, regardless of how the information was actually >formatted onto a drive. CP/M was really primitive when it came to >console I/O, giving only about 3 functions for output and input each. >No cursor positioning or screen control; basic TTY style I/O. And, >while there was an IOBYTE facility to redirect I/O, implementation >was very nonuniform between vendors. Things like Termcap and the lise were not needed. However the console IO was not so good. Try printing a string containing $ using the print string call. The other was passing 8bit data when needed. IObyte was mostly uniform, the problem was often it wasnt even implemented. This was a problem of allowing the BIOS spec to be minimal and it usually was. >As a result, for other than simple command-line utility programs and >compilers/assemblers and the like with minimal I/O requirements, most >productivity and comms programs had to go to the hardware directly >for display and communications. > >And that, I think was the innovation of programs such as WordStar and >SuperCalc, and, to a lesser extent MODEM7 and Kermit--that you were >running on an operating system that was basically designed for TTY >I/O with no connectivity and the majority of systems were using CRTs >and had modems. The problem became then how to make a single program >work for everyone--and that was done with custom patch overlays. > >DRI, for its part, seemed to remain blissfully ignorant of both of >these aspects. Ignorant, I think no, they gave the hooks and basic requirements. It was up to the BIOS developer to do a good job or just enough. I've repeatedly posted that if anything CP/M prevents little and you can do a great deal at the bios level to really deliver a better system. The best way to illustrate this is try a system with basic IO and one with a full interrupt drive IO. The first thing you notice is the ability to type ahead and the system feels more responsive. >Likewise, it wasn't MS-DOS that was the great advance for the IBM PC >platform, but rather the well-documented BIOS and I/O interfaces. >Heck, PC-DOS 1.0 wasn't that different from CP/M-86--you still had to >do your disk I/O through FCBs, just like CP/M. I believe, to this >day, you can still issue your DOS calls by loading (CL) with the >request number and calling TPA:0005. Well it was patterned (so say copied) after CP/M so.. No surpize there. ;) Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 19:31:14 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:31:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive emulator? In-Reply-To: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> References: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, M H Stein wrote: > Have a look at: > http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/cbmhd.htm > > Ruud's the main guy behind the 1541 IDE project I mentioned to you, > (and is on the CBM hacker's list I also mentioned) but he does have > an IEEE <> PC project on his site as well. > On a similar note, is the IDE64 project for real in terms of hardware availability? They do a complete dance around any discussion of this on the website. -- From josecvalle at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 22:29:58 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (jose carlos valle) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:29:58 -0200 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <5791BC74-BF50-4F52-8D45-5CE3726EFACE@neurotica.com> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> <5791BC74-BF50-4F52-8D45-5CE3726EFACE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: To: friends, computers geeks, fans of old computers etc I AM curator of Computer Museum Brazil, and.. I would like to invite you to share that request, Museu do Computador & Tecnologia (also referred to herein as "the Museum") is a nonprofit cultural association, the main goal of which is to restore, maintain and display computers and artifacts pertaining to the history and evolution of Information Technology in Brazil and the world. Founded in 1999, the Museum has been receiving a large number of equipment donations from public universities, municipal administrations, private companies, and hundreds of individuals. The Museum has been considered, by the Harvard-Smithsonian Institute, one of the most complete collections in the world , with more than 15,000 artifacts including hardware and software items, manuals, historic documents, and related materials. It is also recognized as Latin America's only museum dedicated to the preservation, divulgation and teaching of the memory of Information Technology. In order to further expand our collection, we kindly ask for your support by donating to the Museum the following items: Old computers, manuals, printers, some cash donation, etc Your donation shall integrate the permanent showcase as well as itinerant exhibits put forth by the Museum, thus contributing to the historic knowledge of the world's most revolutionary and fastest-growing technologies. Visit our website: www.museudocomputador.com.br or my blog http://computermuseumbrazil.blogspot.com Respectfully, Jos? Carlos Valle President curator, Museu do Computador S?o Paulo, Brazil - curador at museudocomputador.com.br - josecvalle at gmail.com +55-11-8609-7410 -- Jose Carlos Valle Museu do Computador & Futuro da Tecnologia tel:+5511-8609-7410 Brazil From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 31 01:53:05 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:53:05 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> Message-ID: At 8:19 PM -0800 1/30/08, Don North wrote: >It probably would be a good idea to mirror these files somewhere >else if this is not already being done. Agreed. I've been trying to get a copy of these for a couple years. I just finished downloading the files. When I connected via an FTP client, it listed an alternate source, of course that source has been gone for who knows how long. Here is a link to a 5.6Mb tarball. http://www.avanthar.com/~healyzh/moe.2bsd.com_30JAN2008.tar.gz The file is also at: ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/pdp11/moe.2bsd.com_30JAN2008.tar.gz Has anyone ever made an up-to-date install tape that doesn't require you to apply all the patches? I've got a chicken/egg situation going on, my PDP-11 uses a Viking QDT SCSI board, which requires one of the very last patches in order to be supported. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 31 02:01:43 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:01:43 -0600 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <47A08D58.6030108@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <858825.36457.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> <479F8491.40905@netscape.net> <47A08D58.6030108@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <47A18067.2000000@pacbell.net> Holger Veit wrote: ... > The interrupt and DMA handling was also lousy thanks to DR abusing some > 8080 and even worse Z80 RST vector locations for the BDOS and CCP > buffers and FCBs. ... That is one thing I always wondered about. CP/M has "CALL 0005H" as the BIOS entry point. Why didn't they map it to 0008H instead? Considering that code space was at a premium, saving two bytes off of every BIOS call would have been an obvious optimization, I would have thought. On the other hand, I never wrote any 8080 code that used RST, so maybe there is some gotcha that I don't know about. Anyone have opinions why it was done with CALL 0005H instead? The only thing I can come up with is that DR might have entertained, early on, making CP/M relocatable to different addresses (eg, some vendor wants an OS that lives in high memory). In the process of patching all the code for the high addresses, substituting "CALL 0FF05H" instead of "CALL 0005H" is trivial, but substituting "CALL 0FF05H" for "RST 1" would be a problem. Yes, one could require such systems to have a "ORG 0005H / JMP 0FF05H" vector. I'm grasping at straws here. From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 02:19:26 2008 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:19:26 -0500 Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> Message-ID: Steven Hirsch wrote: > On a similar note, is the IDE64 project for real in terms of hardware > availability? They do a complete dance around any discussion of this on > the website. The previous version of the IDE64 is sold out and the new version hasn't been released yet. The previous version worked very well. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 31 02:07:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:07:38 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A1114A.16920.1244DDC4@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:16:32 -0500 > From: scheefj at netscape.net > What is the desired end result? What is the application? A simple > application may not need a "real" networking protocol. If "cluster" > means distributed processing, then you have a lot more than just > protocols to figure out. You know, a $2 PIC (e.g. 18F2580) MCU implements CAN. It's not really fast(CAN, not the PIC) but it keeps your car going. A minimum of external components required. You even get a bunch of other neat stuff thrown in (USART, timers, ADC, etc.). All in a 28 pin skinny DIP or QFN. (Dodging brickbats, for not keeping things contemporaneous) Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 02:29:20 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:29:20 +0000 Subject: Digitalker Information In-Reply-To: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> References: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2008 04:25, Jim Brain wrote: > My son and I watched War Games a few nights back, and I pulled out my > old Jameco JE520 speech synthesizer. We played with it a bit tonight, > and it has a bad EPROM #2, so the upper half of the first word set is > garbled. Questions: > > * Anyone have a JE520 that could copy the ROM? > * Or, anyone have other ROMs for the DIGITALKER (soft copies, that is)? > * Anyone have a datasheet on this device? NS54104 I don't have a JE520, but I do have a NatSemi DT1057 kit, which includes the MM54104 Speech Processor Chip and a couple of speech ROMs. I have the data sheets for the DT1050 Digitalker Standard Vocabulary Kit and DT1056/7 kit, which include some data for the SPC. The ROMs are standard MM52164, which is a fairly ordinary 24-pin 8Kx8 NMOS masked ROM (CS on pin 20, A10, A11, A12 on pins 19, 18, 21). In the 2-ROM kit, one ROM has active-high chip select, and the other has active-low, so they're controlled by A13 from the SPC. I can probably scan the two data sheets later today. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 31 02:50:58 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:50:58 +0000 Subject: Automatic virus scan of uploaded files on BBS? In-Reply-To: <28fa50ba0801291608g24294317uc6d6e0620b1056bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <28fa50ba0801291608g24294317uc6d6e0620b1056bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201769458.22938.28.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 18:08 -0600, Randy Zagar wrote: > Looks like this feature of WWIV will be important in a patent lawsuit by > Trend Micro. Trend Micro claims to have a valid 1995 patent for doing virus > scanning on email servers, Good job most of the world doesn't accept software patents. It's a shame the US is trying to litigate itself into the Neolithic Age, but what can you do...? Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 31 04:06:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:06:29 -0800 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <200801310807.m0V870rw036482@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801310807.m0V870rw036482@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A12D25.5206.12B1AADD@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:44:40 +0100 > From: Holger Veit > MSDOS was much better in abstracting hardware, because it had a loadable > driver concept. Loadable drivers didn't come along until MS/PC DOS 2.0. Before that, adding another device, say an extra disk drive, was a brutal patchwork affair. CP/M 86 was far more advanced (for that matter, CP/M Plus was too) than MS DOS 1.x. As a matter of fact, the DOS 1.1 reference material included information not only on commands, but system table layout, .EXE file structure and system requests. ONE disk buffer for blocking/deblocking. Read and write transferred one record to and from the DTA. Flat file structure; file I/O done with FCBs. As a matter of fact, if you didn't know any better, you'd have sworn that someone took CP/M 2.2 and ported it to the 8086. MS-DOS 2.0 was a huge advance over 1.1; by Microsoft's own admission, the goal was to get closer to Xenix in operability. > Point is there in both cases: the hardware designers did not foresee how > their hardware could or should be used by software, so they basically > implanted the bare chips, not even respecting IRQ and DMA requirements; > the OS developers did not foresee usable and extensible interfaces to > access and abstract various hardware and just hacked something that it > would somehow work; and finally the application designers found the whole > base OS functions where plain unusable and reinvented, each one > differently, the wheel, leaving burnt ground for others that somehow > required similar functions - "thou shall not use the printer port for your > dongle, I have it already." 20-20 hindsight is great, but let's take it from the viewpoint of the times. There were very many CP/M systems around at the time with *no* interrupt or DMA support. Remember that the 5150 made extensive use of peripheral chips that were from the 8-bit world (8237, 8253, 8259, 8255, not to mention the NS8250), so the fact that DMA and an interrupt controller (with 8 interrupt levels yet) and a timer was somewhat remarkable considering the competition. Although the BIOS functions came a long way as the PC evolved, MS-DOS still ran on a 5150, so the added BIOS functionality couldn't be exploited. The parallel port was designed as a printer port; the fact that it was used for other things can hardly be blamed on MS-DOS. The printer port does what it was designed to do extremely well. The fact that a dongle designer was so short-sighted as to not provide printer pass-through functionality can hardly be laid on the designers of the PC. Personally, I'm surprised the light pen interface wasn't used for more things. Cheers, Chuck From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Thu Jan 31 04:18:54 2008 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:18:54 +0100 Subject: Q-BUS primer? Message-ID: I'd recommand studying this one: http://hampage.hu/dr/qbus.html Regards Ulli From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 04:17:43 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:17:43 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801310217n13f4ab7cm8edeb6f95015948a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 30, 2008 11:53 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Has anyone ever made an up-to-date install tape that doesn't require > you to apply all the patches? I've got a chicken/egg situation going > on, my PDP-11 uses a Viking QDT SCSI board, which requires one of the > very last patches in order to be supported. > > Zane > I have an MTI QTS-30 (aka CMD CQD-200/Ts) and TTi QTS-1 / QTS-3 SCSI tape controllers which I can use to boot a 2.11BSD install tape, but the install process hangs up while trying to restore the files from the tape to the hard drive. Anyone know for certain if the latest patches might help that with these TMSCP controllers? With the same SCSI tape drive and a CQD-220/TM I can complete the 2.11BSD tape install process to a hard drive attached to the CQD-220/TM, but then it won't cold boot from the hard drive attached to the CQD-220/TM. One of the MSCP boot loader patches is supposed to fix that, but I haven't built and verified myself yet. It's on the to do list. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 05:10:02 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:10:02 +0000 Subject: Q-BUS primer? In-Reply-To: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> References: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <47A1AC8A.2030209@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2008 03:12, Dave Dunfield wrote: > At this point, all I'm really looking for is a good "starting point". > Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie? There are more descriptive documents, but to identify backplanes and related things, you might want to look at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis and possibly some of the other files in that directory (http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/) > M3106 4-line async > M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword RAM > M7504 Ethernet adapter (older DEQNA) > M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50 > M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller > M7606 MicroVAX II KA630 > M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated) > M7940 x2 SLU Module > M7944 x3 4-Kword RAM > M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller > M8043 x2 4-SLU peripheral interface > M8044DB x2 32Kword RAM > M8044DF x2 32Kword RAM > M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs > M8186 11/23 CPU > M9047 Grant continuity > M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot > M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors > > I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know > anything about these, other than the identifying marks found > on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more > information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them > appear to be media controllers of one sort or another). > > Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge) > Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge) > TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge) > Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge) > SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge) > Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge) > Sigma Information Systems Assy 40100 > - This board has one 40 + one 50 pin connector, and a place to > populate another 40 pin - none are at the front edge. > W951 "Flip Chip" > - This board has places for various sized chips (most of them populated) > with pins to wire-wrap connections between them - looks like some sort > of prototyping board. > > + A couple of the little grant continuity boards. > > I don't expect this to be a short journy, but it should be interesting... > Thanks in advance for any advice/tips. > > Regards, > Dave > > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > -- > This email has been verified as Virus free. > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 31 05:21:36 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:21:36 +0000 Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive emulator? In-Reply-To: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> References: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> Message-ID: <20080131112136.GD20394@usap.gov> On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 04:04:01PM -0500, M H Stein wrote: > Have a look at: > http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/cbmhd.htm That is just about perfect. I may have seen it before, but from looking over it, I wish I'd seen it with enough time to gather any odd parts like schottky diodes or the like (there are several cable configurations, much like PC-to-1541 cables - it all depends on the exact nature of the parallel port you are driving it from if you need to use transistors or diodes, etc., to make it all work). Thanks for the pointer, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Jan-2008 at 11:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37.8 F (-38.8 C) Windchill -58.7 F (-50.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 311 Barometer 679.1 mb (10662 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 31 05:23:52 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:23:52 +0000 Subject: Has anyone ever written a standalone Commodore disk drive emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <01C86359.E8183980@mandr71> Message-ID: <20080131112352.GE20394@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 03:19:26AM -0500, Golan Klinger wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > On a similar note, is the IDE64 project for real in terms of hardware > > availability? They do a complete dance around any discussion of this on > > the website. > > The previous version of the IDE64 is sold out and the new version > hasn't been released yet. The previous version worked very well. I have an older model. It's excellent. The new version looks even better. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Jan-2008 at 11:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37.7 F (-38.7 C) Windchill -60.1 F (-51.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 324 Barometer 679.2 mb (10658 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 05:43:08 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:43:08 +0000 Subject: Q-BUS primer? In-Reply-To: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> References: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <47A1B44C.2010008@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2008 03:12, Dave Dunfield wrote: > At this point, all I'm really looking for is a good "starting point". > Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie? There are more descriptive documents, but as a reference to identify backplanes and related things, you might want to look at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis and possibly some of the other files in that directory (http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/) One thing that can be confusing is the xx-bit terminology. All the PDP-11 processors are 16-bit (data-wise) but there are several different address ranges: 16-bit, limited to 64KB (32KWords); 18-bit, limited to 256KB; and 22-bit, with the full 4MB range. Similarly, some backplanes, memory cards and bus terminators only support 16 or 18 address lines. However, I/O devices generally use the I/O page, which is always the top page in the memory map, and uses a special signal for access regardless of how many memory lines the system has. The gotcha is that some early DMA devices only have 18 address lines for accessing the buffers in system memory. > M3106 4-line async DHV11, needs a breakout cable for the four lines. > M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller That's an RQDX3, so you might want to check the ROM revisions on it. It is supposed to be used in a chassis that has a built-in board for all the cable connections to the drives, or with a breakout board such as an M9058, but you can make your own breakout cable or board (there's a PCB layout for a board and a document describing the connections on my website, should you ever need them). I'd guess this one came from your MicroVAX and probably has fairly up-to-date ROMs. > M7606 MicroVAX II KA630 > M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated) These go together. You can't use that MS630 memory on an ordinary QBus (PDP-11) machine, as it connects to the CPU by the over-the-top connectors. > M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller For an RX01 dual 8" floppy, of course, but it can also be used with an RX02 dual floppy if you set some switches inside the RX02. However, you can't use it with standard (eg SA800-style) floppy drives. > M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs That's an old MXV11-A and probably came with the 11/03. It's not terribly useful for the 11/23 unless you only use older peripherals, and it won't work with the MicroVAX. > M8186 11/23 CPU That's a basic 11/23 processor, and might be either 18-bit if it's an early one, or 22-bit otherwise (the common ones are 22-bit). They were often used as upgrades to older 11/03 systems. The CPU chip is the 40-pin ceramic carrier with two chips on it, furthest from the edge of the board. If it doesn't have the MMU chip, a plain-looking 40-pin ceramic chip at the edge of the board, it will only access 64KB. It may have an optional FPU, which is a 40-pin ceramic carrier with two smaller chips on it, like the CPU. > M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot That's 18-bit only, so will only really be useful with the 11/03, unless your 11/23 is an early one that's 18-bit, or was only set up as an 18-bit system. > M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors That's usually used as a bus extender for a second chassis. Is/was there another card (M9401) with it? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 31 09:04:03 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:04:03 -0800 Subject: never knew DOS system files were resettable In-Reply-To: <5495.65794.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5495.65794.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > > is there any way to make these visible? I'm trying to > do something funky, and for some reason XP won't > *visualize* the hidden files on a boot disk > (bootdisk.com). I tried unhiding them with attrib, but > it tells me uh uh. What to do? Yes I did change my > folder option to display hidden files, but to no avail. > Hi Have you tried dropping into a DOS window. If you still can't do anything from the window, install a older DOS program like XTGOLD. Be careful to set it up to not read all the directories or it won't run as XP has too many files. When I had a problem with a virus, this was the only way I was able to fix it. On XP they call it a "command prompt" but it is a DOS window. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 31 09:31:26 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:31:26 -0600 Subject: never knew DOS system files were resettable In-Reply-To: References: <5495.65794.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080131093009.051e0c88@mail.threedee.com> This seems rather contemporary and off-topic. There's Explorer and what its Folders options are set to show, there's what DOS/CMD knows in terms of hidden/system bits. - John From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 31 10:22:37 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:22:37 -0600 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <47A1114A.16920.1244DDC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A1114A.16920.1244DDC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47A1F5CD.30802@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You know, a $2 PIC (e.g. 18F2580) MCU implements CAN. It's not > really fast(CAN, not the PIC) but it keeps your car going. A minimum > of external components required. You even get a bunch of other neat > stuff thrown in (USART, timers, ADC, etc.). All in a 28 pin skinny > DIP or QFN. > > (Dodging brickbats, for not keeping things contemporaneous) > I looked at that (Actually, I looked at AVR8 CAN variants), but I thought I'd try to find an all C64 option for Sellam. I like the uC approach, as it offloads a lot of the networking from the main machine (like the original ARPANET had those boxes that bridged the net to the machine, can;t remember the term for them). I think Sellam preferred the C64 only approach so folks could replicate it more easily. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 31 10:27:25 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:27:25 -0600 Subject: Digitalker Information In-Reply-To: <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <47A1F6ED.1060108@jbrain.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I can probably scan the two data sheets later today. Thanks. I can;t find anything online for the IC. On a related topic, someone is offering to trade me some GI SP0256-AL2 ICs for equipment here. Assuming I can get the DIGITALKER working, I do remember that it always had issues in that there was a limit to the vocabulary. I always wanted to build a SC-01 or SP0256 phenome-based system to compare. Does anyone have experience in one or the other and can relate whether it's worth it to get an SP0256, or whether I should keep looking for an SC-01A or similar. speechchips.com had a SP0256 emulator, but they stated it sounded worse than the real thing, so I didn't think it was good to review. Jim From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 10:28:14 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:28:14 +0000 Subject: Digitalker Information In-Reply-To: <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <47A1F71E.2000504@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2008 08:29, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 31/01/2008 04:25, Jim Brain wrote: > I don't have a JE520, but I do have a NatSemi DT1057 kit, which includes > the MM54104 Speech Processor Chip and a couple of speech ROMs. I have > the data sheets for the DT1050 Digitalker Standard Vocabulary Kit and > DT1056/7 kit, which include some data for the SPC. After a bit of fighting with our stupid scanner at work, I've made an 8-page TIFF of the DT1056/DT1057 data sheet, and put it up at http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~pnt1/things/DT1057.tif Please let me know if that's helpful. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 10:30:34 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:30:34 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <47A1F5CD.30802@jbrain.com> References: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A1114A.16920.1244DDC4@cclist.sydex.com> <47A1F5CD.30802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220801310830x60a4aa96m260d76a572fced91@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 31, 2008 8:22 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > You know, a $2 PIC (e.g. 18F2580) MCU implements CAN. It's not > > really fast(CAN, not the PIC) but it keeps your car going. A minimum > > of external components required. You even get a bunch of other neat > > stuff thrown in (USART, timers, ADC, etc.). All in a 28 pin skinny > > DIP or QFN. > > > > (Dodging brickbats, for not keeping things contemporaneous) > > > I looked at that (Actually, I looked at AVR8 CAN variants), but I > thought I'd try to find an all C64 option for Sellam. I like the uC > approach, as it offloads a lot of the networking from the main machine > (like the original ARPANET had those boxes that bridged the net to the > machine, can;t remember the term for them). > [snip] The boxes were called IMPs (Interface Message Processors). John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 31 10:40:35 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:40:35 -0800 Subject: Q-BUS primer? In-Reply-To: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> References: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> Message-ID: At 10:12 PM -0500 1/30/08, Dave Dunfield wrote: You'll need to do some more research, but here goes... You need to ID the backplanes for sure so that you don't blow something up. >Three chassis: > BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a > "MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a > floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it. 22-bit, for the MicroVAX II CPU you have > I don't know the model numbers for the next two: > - One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP > console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the > front beside the panel. Likely an 18-bit backplane for the -11/23 CPU. > - The last one is the smallest, looks much like the one above, > complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead > of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also > has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no > power supply or console panel. I'm guessing this is a 16-bit backplane for the -11/03 >I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know >anything about these, other than the identifying marks found >on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more >information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them >appear to be media controllers of one sort or another). > >Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge) >Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge) >TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge) >Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge) >SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge) Have you Googled these? Google Groups aka DejaNews will be the most help. The first three *might* be some sort of SCSI, if so I'm guessing that second one talks to tape drives. Can you provide pictures of the 3rd party boards? Those are more useful. >Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge) Useless, it's for a Versatec plotter. Did you get any drives with any of this stuff? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 31 11:20:22 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:20:22 -0800 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <47A12D25.5206.12B1AADD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801310807.m0V870rw036482@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A12D25.5206.12B1AADD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2008 2:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > As a matter of fact, if you didn't know any better, you'd have > sworn that someone took CP/M 2.2 and ported it to the 8086. Knowing better isn't required, because that is exactly what was done. You could generate exact QDOS code sequences by running Intel's 8080 to 8086 translator on disassemblies of CP/M code. Patterson may not have used the translator, I wasn't there... If not, he was almost certainly looking at CP/M code when he was writing QDOS/SCP-DOS. MS-DOS 1.0 was more CP/M 2.2 compatible than CP/M-86 was. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 11:23:09 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:23:09 +0000 Subject: Digitalker Information In-Reply-To: <47A1F6ED.1060108@jbrain.com> References: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> <47A1F6ED.1060108@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <47A203FD.7040907@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2008 16:27, Jim Brain wrote: > On a related topic, someone is offering to trade me some GI SP0256-AL2 > ICs for equipment here. Assuming I can get the DIGITALKER working, I do > remember that it always had issues in that there was a limit to the > vocabulary. Yes, it uses digitised speech, so you're limited to the words and word parts that are addressable in the ROMs. There were two standard ROMs in the kits, and a few others available at one time. I assume there was information on how to digitise your own, but I've never seen it. It was quite good quality, though. The Texas TMS5200NL was a bit more versatile in that it was possible to provide your own data, but I don't think it was easy. It normally used special serial ROMs. Better quality; you could actually make it sing. I always wanted to build a SC-01 or SP0256 phenome-based > system to compare. Does anyone have experience in one or the other and > can relate whether it's worth it to get an SP0256 The SP0256 sounds very robotic compared to the NS and Texas devices. The SC-01 is reputedly better (variable pitch, for one thing) but I've not got much experience of either. I've not used any of the more modern chips, but there are a few out there. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 31 11:46:49 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:46:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Digitalker Information In-Reply-To: <47A1F6ED.1060108@jbrain.com> References: <47A14DBB.3060905@jbrain.com> <47A186E0.1040604@dunnington.plus.com> <47A1F6ED.1060108@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > On a related topic, someone is offering to trade me some GI SP0256-AL2 ICs > for equipment here. Assuming I can get the DIGITALKER working, I do remember > that it always had issues in that there was a limit to the vocabulary. I > always wanted to build a SC-01 or SP0256 phenome-based system to compare. > Does anyone have experience in one or the other and can relate whether it's > worth it to get an SP0256, or whether I should keep looking for an SC-01A or > similar. I have a VS100 voice synthesizer for my TRS-80 Model III, which is based on the SC-01-A. If I get a chance, I'll hook it up and record some samples. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jan 31 13:09:37 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:09:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chip ID and datasheet?.. Message-ID: <20080131190937.0CC655688E@mail.wordstock.com> All, I am trying to ID a chip from a SFD-1001 motor control board. This is printed on the chip: JAPAN SERVO SA1001 3A It looks like a normal DIP, except for the middle pins which look to be twice as wide. Is this for heat sinking? I have tried searching for this chip but so far have found nothing. The board has this marking; PC-368C JAPAN SERVO TDK-T15V Which also has not turned up anything useful.. The 5 1/4" drive mech this board is connected to was made by Matsushita and its model # is JU-570-2. From reading the SFD-1001 technical manual, the 5 1/4" mech is just listed as a part so it does not have any detailed information for this board. :( Cheers, Bryan From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Jan 31 13:33:10 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:33:10 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90801310217n13f4ab7cm8edeb6f95015948a@mail.gmail.com> References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> <1e1fc3e90801310217n13f4ab7cm8edeb6f95015948a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47A22276.3060208@mindspring.com> Glen Slick wrote: > On Jan 30, 2008 11:53 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Has anyone ever made an up-to-date install tape that doesn't require >> you to apply all the patches? I've got a chicken/egg situation going >> on, my PDP-11 uses a Viking QDT SCSI board, which requires one of the >> very last patches in order to be supported. >> >> > > I have an MTI QTS-30 (aka CMD CQD-200/Ts) and TTi QTS-1 / QTS-3 SCSI > tape controllers which I can use to boot a 2.11BSD install tape, but > the install process hangs up while trying to restore the files from > the tape to the hard drive. Anyone know for certain if the latest > patches might help that with these TMSCP controllers? > > With the same SCSI tape drive and a CQD-220/TM I can complete the > 2.11BSD tape install process to a hard drive attached to the > CQD-220/TM, but then it won't cold boot from the hard drive attached > to the CQD-220/TM. One of the MSCP boot loader patches is supposed to > fix that, but I haven't built and verified myself yet. It's on the to > do list. > > A while back I posted a complete runnable SIMH setup for 2.11BSD that is patched thru #444. It's only missing the 'last' FPP patch that was posted within the last year or so (#445). It's located at: http://www.AK6DN.com/PDP-11/2.11BSD/ It is an RA72 1GB .dsk image file and a corresponding simh .ini file for an 11/44 config (it also happens to work on my real 11/44). There are also a sample boot log and a copy of the original 2.11BSD setup instructions as a .pdf. I don't know what it would take to make a new set of install tapes. I started with the original install tapes to make the above setup, and applied the missing last set of patches to make the setup be current thru PL444. Don From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 31 13:39:00 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:39:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: never knew DOS system files were resettable In-Reply-To: <5495.65794.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5495.65794.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080131113517.F52444@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Chris M wrote: > is there any way to make these visible? I'm trying to > do something funky, and for some reason XP won't > *visualize* the hidden files on a boot disk > (bootdisk.com). I tried unhiding them with attrib, but > it tells me uh uh. What to do? Yes I did change my > folder option to display hidden files, but to no avail. Back in the days when those files were on-topic, . . . IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS were S_ystem, H_idden, AND R_ead-only. XP might not let you turn off the Hidden bit unless you also turn off the System and Read-only bits. ATTRIB foo -S -H -R You can floppy boot DOS 7 from Win98, and get a more familiar/cooperative working environment. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 31 13:47:57 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:47:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without In-Reply-To: <47A22276.3060208@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Jan 31, 2008 11:33:10 AM Message-ID: <200801311947.m0VJlw3n028828@onyx.spiritone.com> > A while back I posted a complete runnable SIMH setup for 2.11BSD that is > patched thru #444. It's only missing the 'last' FPP patch that was > posted within the last year or so (#445). > > It's located at: http://www.AK6DN.com/PDP-11/2.11BSD/ > > It is an RA72 1GB .dsk image file and a corresponding simh .ini file for > an 11/44 config (it also happens to work on my real 11/44). There are > also a sample boot log and a copy of the original 2.11BSD setup > instructions as a .pdf. > > I don't know what it would take to make a new set of install tapes. I > started with the original install tapes to make the above setup, and > applied the missing last set of patches to make the setup be current > thru PL444. Is it possible to install 2.11BSD from disk? Including a write-protected disk (aka CD-R)? I'd just as soon not have to mess with tapes :^) Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 31 13:54:36 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:54:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <47A12D25.5206.12B1AADD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200801310807.m0V870rw036482@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A12D25.5206.12B1AADD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080131115354.O52444@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Personally, I'm surprised the light pen interface wasn't used for > more things. I think that the light pen was killed by having such a long persistence phosphor. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 31 14:33:46 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:33:46 +0000 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <47A1F5CD.30802@jbrain.com> References: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A1114A.16920.1244DDC4@cclist.sydex.com> <47A1F5CD.30802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080131203346.GB3281@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 10:22:37AM -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >You know, a $2 PIC (e.g. 18F2580) MCU implements CAN. It's not > >really fast(CAN, not the PIC) but it keeps your car going. A minimum > >of external components required. You even get a bunch of other neat > >stuff thrown in (USART, timers, ADC, etc.). All in a 28 pin skinny > >DIP or QFN. Interesting suggestion - we have a number of VME crates with CAN bus capability - not the CPUs on the VME bus, the crates themselves... I think it's used for environmental monitoring and control in this application. > I looked at that (Actually, I looked at AVR8 CAN variants), but I > thought I'd try to find an all C64 option for Sellam. I like the uC > approach, as it offloads a lot of the networking from the main machine > (like the original ARPANET had those boxes that bridged the net to the > machine, can;t remember the term for them). IMPs - Internet Message Procesors. I'm blanking on the first generation hardware, but later IMPs were PDP-11-based. > I think Sellam preferred the C64 only approach so folks could replicate > it more easily. Certainly, the less external hardware, the more likely someone else will give it a go. If the end result is an application that will run on, say, eight C-64s, I might try it when I get home. If it's more of a 32-minimum or 64-minimum, that's a bit more hardware than I have access to. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Jan-2008 at 20:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -39.5 F (-39.7 C) Windchill -61.9 F (-52.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 353 Barometer 680.6 mb (10606 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 15:02:00 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:02:00 -0800 Subject: Simple peer to peer network? In-Reply-To: <20080131203346.GB3281@usap.gov> References: <200801302326.m0UNQfko030866@dewey.classiccmp.org> <47A1114A.16920.1244DDC4@cclist.sydex.com> <47A1F5CD.30802@jbrain.com> <20080131203346.GB3281@usap.gov> Message-ID: <7d3530220801311302t182a5741k295cb0c1403a28c8@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 31, 2008 12:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 10:22:37AM -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > > I looked at that (Actually, I looked at AVR8 CAN variants), but I > > thought I'd try to find an all C64 option for Sellam. I like the uC > > approach, as it offloads a lot of the networking from the main machine > > (like the original ARPANET had those boxes that bridged the net to the > > machine, can;t remember the term for them). > > IMPs - Internet Message Procesors. I'm blanking on the first generation > hardware, but later IMPs were PDP-11-based. > IIRC, the first IMPs were based on the Honeywell 516. I actually just finished a history book about ARPANET so I think that's right :) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jan 31 15:22:16 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:22:16 +0000 Subject: Q-BUS primer? In-Reply-To: References: <115E89C84FDD@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20080131212216.GF3281@usap.gov> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 08:40:35AM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Three chassis: > > BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a > > "MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a > > floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it. > > 22-bit, for the MicroVAX II CPU you have A BA-23 will work fine for PDP-11s as well... they were sold as "MicroPDP" systems. While a KDF11-A (half-height 11/23 CPU board) will work, it's probably not the best choice, since a KDF11-A is a CPU only, no peripherals. In the MicroPDP line, one common low-end option was an -11/53 CPU board (can't recall the exact part number, but it might be KDJ11-mumble). There was also the -11/73 variety (definitely something like a KDJ11-B), the same J-11 CPU as the -11/53, but clocked a bit faster (and originally priced a bit higher). Some of the J-11 quad height boards have on-board memory (like the -11/53), I think some do not. These are new enough that my experience is a little fuzzy from the old days. I do have an -11/53 board w/1MB onboard, but it came from a different sort of box than a BA-23, and I haven't played with it much. Also, if you are inexperienced with Q-bus, you might not realize that the BA-23 has two flavors of slots. In a standard MicroVAX configuration, it really won't be a problem, as the CPU and memory occupy the top three slots, the ones that are different. The bottom six slots are idential and "standard" Q-bus. If you are trying to configure something out of the ordinary, it will probably come up as an issue. Not to fill a page with the details, but the keywords are "CD interconnect" and "AB-AB" or just plain "Q22" slots. You can probably search the message archives for this group and see lots of details of Qbus backplanes being discussed here in the past. > > I don't know the model numbers for the next two: > > - One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP > > console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the > > front beside the panel. > > Likely an 18-bit backplane for the -11/23 CPU. >From your description, it sounds like a BA-11N, a very common 11/23 and 11/23+ enclosure. > > - The last one is the smallest, looks much like the one above, > > complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead > > of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also > > has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no > > power supply or console panel. > > I'm guessing this is a 16-bit backplane for the -11/03 Another BA-11, but I forget the letter designation off the top of my head. > >I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know > >anything about these, other than the identifying marks found > >on the boards listed below > > > >Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge) > >Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge) > >TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge) > >Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge) > >SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge) I don't recognise those particular devices, but the MSV05B sounds like a tape controller, especially with a pair of 50-pin connectors. That's standard for a Pertec-formatted tape drive interface. Andromeda makes a lot of powerful peripherals, especially disk controllers. I don't know specifically what a UDC-11 is, but have a look for anything that might suggest it's a SCSI interface (NCR or National SCSI controller chips, three adjacent SIP resistor packs for termination...) Xylogics was heavy into terminal servers and serial comms. Perhaps the Wizard 1 is a multi-serial interface. The part number of the DSC-RXVZ1 suggests it is at least a floppy controller, but perhaps it is also a hard drive controller. If so, it probably needs some external breakout board in the same way an DEC RQDX1/2/3 does. If not, it might be just an 8" drive interface for a raw drive like an SA800-series drive (not an RX01 or RX02). It would likely _emulate_ an RXV11 or RXV21 at the register level, but use inexpensive (at the time) non-DEC drives with a 50-pin interface. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Jan-2008 at 21:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -39.5 F (-39.7 C) Windchill -64.1 F (-53.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.2 kts Grid 349 Barometer 680.5 mb (10609 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Jan 31 16:43:37 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:43:37 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without In-Reply-To: <200801311947.m0VJlw3n028828@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200801311947.m0VJlw3n028828@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47A24F19.7050506@mindspring.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> A while back I posted a complete runnable SIMH setup for 2.11BSD that is >> patched thru #444. It's only missing the 'last' FPP patch that was >> posted within the last year or so (#445). >> >> It's located at: http://www.AK6DN.com/PDP-11/2.11BSD/ >> >> It is an RA72 1GB .dsk image file and a corresponding simh .ini file for >> an 11/44 config (it also happens to work on my real 11/44). There are >> also a sample boot log and a copy of the original 2.11BSD setup >> instructions as a .pdf. >> >> I don't know what it would take to make a new set of install tapes. I >> started with the original install tapes to make the above setup, and >> applied the missing last set of patches to make the setup be current >> thru PL444. > > Is it possible to install 2.11BSD from disk? Including a write-protected > disk (aka CD-R)? I'd just as soon not have to mess with tapes :^) > > Zane Actually, that is the way I did it on my real 11/44 h/w. It has an MSCP SCSI (emulex UC17) disk controller that I have both a r/w hard drive (a 1GB seagate) and a scsi CDROM (a DEC RRD43 aka Toshiba XM4101B). I did all the sysgen/config in SIMH, building 2.11BSD from tape and installing all the patches (and rearranging all the objects withing the kernel overlays to get the MSCP and TMSCP device drivers to fit .. but that is a whole other story). When I was happy with what was running on SIMH, I used the RA92 disk image to write an ISO cdrom using CDRWIN (or there are other freeware programs as well). Then I took the CDROM out to the real 11/44 h/w, and booted the CDROM via the DU device boot prom. 2.11BSD will boot to single user on a read-only drive. To get the bits from the CDROM to the hard drive required a bit of trickery, since 2.11BSD stores the partition map on the drive. 'dd' won't work before the drive has been formatted under 2.11BSD. I used XXDP (booted from my trusty TU58 serial emulator) to copy the first 32MB from the CDROM to the hard drive as an image transfer. This 32MB contained the complete root filesystem, so I could now boot the hard drive 2.11BSD image. At this point I could then use 'dd' to copy all the bits from the CDROM to the hard drive. One last gotcha is that the CDROM is only 700MB, whereas the RA72 .dsk image is 1GB, so the last 400MB is truncated. This was allocated to the '/user' filesystem (nothing in it) so I just used standard 2.11BSD commands to reimage the filesystem in that partition. So the long answer to both your questions is yes. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Thu Jan 31 17:13:03 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:13:03 -0500 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without In-Reply-To: <200801311947.m0VJlw3n028828@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200801311947.m0VJlw3n028828@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47A255FF.1020005@nktelco.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is it possible to install 2.11BSD from disk? Including a write-protected > disk (aka CD-R)? I'd just as soon not have to mess with tapes :^) > > Assuming you have SCSI for your PDP-11, the easiest way to install is to build the system using simh and then dd the resulting disk image to a SCSI drive attached to the system running the emulation. Move the disk to the PDP-11 and away you go. Somehow that seems like cheating. I used this method for my first installation and then made some 9-track tapes so I could get the authentic experience. :-) -chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 31 16:48:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:48:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A sign of the times In-Reply-To: <47A117F8.7000001@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 30, 8 06:36:08 pm Message-ID: > I should have done a better job researching, as the MPS802/1526 was just > a CBM 4023 printer with the IEEE board swapped out for a IEC-based one. > It has the same issues. I don't doubt that you're right, and that the 2 printers do have the same prolems, but you couldn't _know_ that from the above. Thr 4023 (at least) consists of the mechanism (stepper motors and printhead), a mains transformer, and the main PCB. Now the mechanism has nothing to do with whether or not it can print graphics, that's determined by the firmware (And amount of avaialle RAM to buffer a line of graphics) on the PCB. So by having a different main PCB, they could easily have added a graphics mode, or deleted some other feature, or... Incindentally, I modified a 4023 once to be an ASCII (rather than Commodore 'PETSCII') printer. Once I'd found the rotuine that translated between a character code and the signals to send to the printhead, it was quite an easy firmware mod (in fact the hard bits were (a) making an adapter to use a normal EPROM in the PCB and (b) realising the power-on routine checksummed the ROM and that I had to fix that too). That printer worked fine on my PERQ for quite a time... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 31 17:16:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:16:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MPI floppy drive service manual Message-ID: There is currently an HP9826 in bits on my bench, this machine incorporates a single 5.25" floppy drive. Now must such machines used Tandon TM100-2As (slightly modified to HP spec), but this one has a different tye of drive. A label on it says : Magnetic Peripheals Inc (A Control Data Company) P/N 77711807 I am looking for a servicv manual for this drive, in particular _mechanical_ information. Looking at the drive, all the electronics (inclduing the spindle motor speed cotnrol) is on one PCB on top. The spindle motor is the normal motor + tachogenerator at the rear left corner, driving the spindle by a blet on the underside. The head postiioner stepper motor is at the rear right corner, shaft vertical with a taut-band mechanism to move the heads. To the right of the stepper motor drum, attached to extensions of the head carriage, is some sort of damper unit. The PCB might be HP special. In particualr there is a header connector to link up an external drive in-use LED. But I susepct it's closely related to a standard MPI drive. I need to know how to dismantle the band mechnaism to remove the heads, and als what to do about the damper which is leaking grease onto the chassis (!). Does anyone recognise that drive mechanism and know where I could find a service manual. I've not found anything on-line yet. Also, does anyone have a proper data sheet for the MC3470 (disk read amplifier etc). The only one I can find on the web is the NTE one which doesn't have that much information in it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 31 17:02:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:02:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Chip ID and datasheet?.. In-Reply-To: <20080131190937.0CC655688E@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Jan 31, 8 02:09:37 pm Message-ID: > > > All, > > I am trying to ID a chip from a SFD-1001 motor control board. This > is printed on the chip: > > JAPAN SERVO > SA1001 > 3A > > It looks like a normal DIP, except for the middle pins which > look to be twice as wide. Is this for heat sinking? I have tried Almost certainly yes. Is this one of those direct-drive spindle motors, commonly found in half-height drives/ That chip sounds like the device that takes in the signals from hall effect sensors (which detect the postion of the rotor) and sends current through the 3-phase motor windings. The full-height 3.5" SOny drives that HP used (and which I get to repair..) used something similar. In that one, the chip was a standard part, used in some VCRs, and I amnaged to get a replacement. Over the years I've hard on chip fail and one hall sensor fail. Alas I have no idea where to find data on your chip, but I will keep on thinking. Why do you suspect it's faulty? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 31 17:04:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:04:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <20080131115354.O52444@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 31, 8 11:54:36 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Personally, I'm surprised the light pen interface wasn't used for > > more things. > > I think that the light pen was killed by having such a long persistence > phosphor. IIRC, while the MDA card had a light pen connector, it was never really documented or supported by IBM, due to the fact that light pens didn't work properly with the very long persisnence phosphor of the 5151 monitor. The CGA card's light pen connector was docuemtned, though (although I have never seen a light pen designed to work with it -tony From chd_1 at nktelco.net Thu Jan 31 17:25:11 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:25:11 -0500 Subject: CQD-220 was: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: <47A22276.3060208@mindspring.com> References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> <1e1fc3e90801310217n13f4ab7cm8edeb6f95015948a@mail.gmail.com> <47A22276.3060208@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <47A258D7.2000501@nktelco.net> > >> On Jan 30, 2008 11:53 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> With the same SCSI tape drive and a CQD-220/TM I can complete the >> 2.11BSD tape install process to a hard drive attached to the >> CQD-220/TM, but then it won't cold boot from the hard drive attached >> to the CQD-220/TM. One of the MSCP boot loader patches is supposed to >> fix that, but I haven't built and verified myself yet. It's on the to >> do list. >> >> I have a CQD-220/M and it does boot. I don't recall a problem, but I know there was a problem with the KFQSA when using the DU boot loader. Can a CD-ROM drive be attached to the CQD-220/M? If so, what drive types have been successful? Is there a way to convert a CQD-220/T to a /M or /TM? What about a Viking TMSCP SCSI controller (forget the model)? I got them cheap, knowing that they didn't do disk and hoping there might be a conversion method some day. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 31 17:36:05 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:36:05 -0800 Subject: MC3470 Message-ID: <47A25B65.50204@bitsavers.org> > Also, does anyone have a proper data sheet for the MC3470 (disk read > amplifier etc). A reasonable description appears in the Semens FD100 service manual. The best analysis of a floppy read channel I have ever read appears here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA850_450_Read_Channel_Analysis_Dec79.pdf From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jan 31 18:02:47 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:02:47 -0800 Subject: MPI floppy drive service manual References: Message-ID: <001301c86465$c84ca5c0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Tony, I have an 8 page TI datasheet ( PDF ) that is about 285 KBytes. If you want me to send it to you offline please let me know. Best regards, Steven > There is currently an HP9826 in bits on my bench, this machine > incorporates a single 5.25" floppy drive. Now must such machines used > Tandon TM100-2As (slightly modified to HP spec), but this one has a > different tye of drive. A label on it says : > > Magnetic Peripheals Inc > (A Control Data Company) > P/N 77711807 > > I am looking for a servicv manual for this drive, in particular > _mechanical_ information. > > Looking at the drive, all the electronics (inclduing the spindle motor > speed cotnrol) is on one PCB on top. The spindle motor is the normal > motor + tachogenerator at the rear left corner, driving the spindle by a > blet on the underside. The head postiioner stepper motor is at the rear > right corner, shaft vertical with a taut-band mechanism to move the > heads. To the right of the stepper motor drum, attached to extensions of > the head carriage, is some sort of damper unit. > > The PCB might be HP special. In particualr there is a header connector to > link up an external drive in-use LED. But I susepct it's closely related > to a standard MPI drive. > > I need to know how to dismantle the band mechnaism to remove the heads, > and als what to do about the damper which is leaking grease onto the > chassis (!). > > Does anyone recognise that drive mechanism and know where I could find a > service manual. I've not found anything on-line yet. > > Also, does anyone have a proper data sheet for the MC3470 (disk read > amplifier etc). The only one I can find on the web is the NTE one which > doesn't have that much information in it. > > -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 18:14:46 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:14:46 -0800 Subject: CQD-220 was: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; 211bsd runs on systems without FPP In-Reply-To: <47A258D7.2000501@nktelco.net> References: <459BF36E.5040100@gsi.de> <1e1fc3e90712040806mc04ec8dl606b9a946e6755dc@mail.gmail.com> <4755A073.2020407@mindspring.com> <47A128DD.1000801@nktelco.net> <47A14C5A.4080307@mindspring.com> <1e1fc3e90801310217n13f4ab7cm8edeb6f95015948a@mail.gmail.com> <47A22276.3060208@mindspring.com> <47A258D7.2000501@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90801311614ic8254dftd2b44a18fee8dfe6@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 31, 2008 3:25 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > I have a CQD-220/M and it does boot. I don't recall a problem, but I > know there was a problem with the KFQSA when using the DU boot loader. > The standard distributions that I have seen are Patch Level: 431 Patch 432 includes: (5) The MSCP bootblock could not boot disks attached to a TD Systems Viking MSCP controller. Patch 441 includes: (3) The MSCP bootblock would not work with a CMD CQD220 adaptor due to the bootblock relying on the (undocumented?) behaviour of DEC adaptors. I haven't yet verified myself that 441 fixes the boot failure I am seeing with my CDQ-220. The same drive moved to a SQ706A boots fine. > Can a CD-ROM drive be attached to the CQD-220/M? If so, what drive types > have been successful? > I can boot an XXDP image burned onto a CD and the OVMS73 install CD using a Plextor CD-ROM drive in 512-byte block mode on both a CMD CQD-220/TM and a Dilog SQ706A, on a PDP-11 and VAX, respectively. With the CQD-220 VMS identifies the CD-ROM drive as an RRD40, but with the SQ706A VMS does not identify the CD-ROM drive as a CD-ROM drive and I couldn't figure out how to mount the CD to finish the install after booting and doing the initial standalone backup restore to disk. Maybe some magic mount parameter is needed that isn't necessary when VMS identifies the device as a CD-ROM drive. > Is there a way to convert a CQD-220/T to a /M or /TM? What about a > Viking TMSCP SCSI controller (forget the model)? I got them cheap, > knowing that they didn't do disk and hoping there might be a conversion > method some day. > I think this is a common wishlist item. I think if it is possible you need to change both the firmware EPROMs and the PAL. Cloning EPROMs from a /TM to a /T or /M would be trivial. If the PAL is secured that might be an obstacle. Has anyone sucessfully done this? Is there a /TM version of the CQD-200? I have CQD-200/T that would of course be nice if it were a /TM. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 31 18:36:13 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:36:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: CQD-220 was: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90801311614ic8254dftd2b44a18fee8dfe6@mail.gmail.com> from "Glen Slick" at Jan 31, 2008 04:14:46 PM Message-ID: <200802010036.m110aDRL007974@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Is there a way to convert a CQD-220/T to a /M or /TM? What about a > > Viking TMSCP SCSI controller (forget the model)? I got them cheap, > > knowing that they didn't do disk and hoping there might be a conversion > > method some day. > > > > I think this is a common wishlist item. I think if it is possible you > need to change both the firmware EPROMs and the PAL. Cloning EPROMs > from a /TM to a /T or /M would be trivial. If the PAL is secured that > might be an obstacle. Has anyone sucessfully done this? Is there a > /TM version of the CQD-200? I have CQD-200/T that would of course be > nice if it were a /TM. I've no idea on the CMD, but for the Viking it is more than just the EPROM and PAL. Zane From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 31 18:45:22 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:45:22 +0000 Subject: CQD-220 was: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; In-Reply-To: <200802010036.m110aDRL007974@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200802010036.m110aDRL007974@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <47A26BA2.6050608@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/02/2008 00:36, Zane H. Healy wrote: >On 01/02/2008 00:14, Glen Slick wrote: >> I think this is a common wishlist item. I think if it is possible you >> need to change both the firmware EPROMs and the PAL. > I've no idea on the CMD, but for the Viking it is more than just the EPROM > and PAL. Are you sure? I thought the only difference was those two ICs, but if you know more, I'd be interested to know what else is different. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 31 19:23:58 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:23:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: CQD-220 was: 2.11BSD Patch 445; FPSIM fixed; In-Reply-To: <47A26BA2.6050608@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 01, 2008 12:45:22 AM Message-ID: <200802010123.m111NwtC009003@onyx.spiritone.com> Peter Turnbull wrote: > On 01/02/2008 00:36, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >On 01/02/2008 00:14, Glen Slick wrote: > > >> I think this is a common wishlist item. I think if it is possible you > >> need to change both the firmware EPROMs and the PAL. > > > I've no idea on the CMD, but for the Viking it is more than just the EPROM > > and PAL. > > Are you sure? I thought the only difference was those two ICs, but if > you know more, I'd be interested to know what else is different. It requires one other change. I'm not at liberty to say what that change is, Viking would have to disclose that. One additional bit of info I can give you on the Viking boards is that you want as new of firmware as possible in the EPROM if you want to use a CD-ROM drive. Not all 512-byte CD-ROM drives will work. I've seen drives that will work on a DEC Alpha not work on it. However, I've had good luck with Plextor Caddy drives (6x and 8x). I think the other drive I got to work was an RRD-42 (DEC Caddy drive). Zane From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 31 20:09:23 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:09:23 -0600 Subject: interact model one -- looking for docs Message-ID: <47A27F53.9070607@pacbell.net> Hello vintage microcomputer fans. I recently bought an Interact Model One computer on ebay (#150208636366). It was in good shape and it went relatively cheaply. This beastie is 8080 based, and has very coarse color graphics. Mine is unusual in that it has a white housing and a real keyboard, not the ash gray case and tiny rubber keys of all the other interacts I've seen. It has an integrated cassette deck, and no ROM BASIC -- that has to be loaded from tape. By all measures is was really a miserable little runt. :-) Well, the seller put it in a box that was exactly as wide as the computer, such that there was no padding in that axis, other than the cardboard of the box. The rest was just stuffed with foam peanuts, and a small sheet of bubble wrap that was floating in the box. As you might guess, it didn't fare well. The space bar popped off and peanuts got jammed inside the machine. Luckily, it was easy to put back. Three of the five buttons of the integrated cassette deck broke off. The plastic buttons are OK; it was just the glue that broke, and the keys can be glued back on. Worst, a corner of the case shattered into pieces, and left a large crack along the top rear. Being out $68 isn't so painful as the idea that this thing found its way through the world for 30 years in decent condition and then got ravaged due to simple carelessness. Still, I crossed my fingers and plugged it in. At first I thought it was dead, but then realized it is putting out modulated video. After swapping my in nice Sony color monitor for a TV and tuning in channel 3, I get a "DEPRESS L TO LOAD TAPE" message. Hooray for that. All isn't well, though, as pressing the "READ" button doesn't cause the tape mechanism to turn, even after pressing L. It is kind of moot, though, as the plastic cover doesn't pop up when I press eject. A web search hasn't turned up any useful information on the machine -- scans of manuals, in particular. A short time ago, a much more complete system, including manuals, sold on ebay (#220191106456), to "hokinfan". I attempted to contact the buyer to see if he could help me out, but ebay rejected my attempts because they didn't see any trading history between us. (please, no ebay rants) So, does anybody on the list happen to have any form of technical documents that I might be able to use to help troubleshoot this? Beside wanting the information just to have it in case, I do have an immediate need to figure out the tape deck, and to rig up some replacement joysticks, since the machine didn't come with them. Thanks From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 31 20:56:41 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:56:41 -0800 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <200801311643.m0VGh3cw042234@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200801311643.m0VGh3cw042234@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <47A219E9.13405.5D7AA9@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:27:23 -0500 > From: Allison > Things like Termcap and the lise were not needed. However the console IO > was not so good. Try printing a string containing $ using the print > string call. The other was passing 8bit data when needed. Many avoided the issues with the BDOS and simply went through the CBIOS vector. That's why it was important that your "cold boot" jump at 0000 point to the proper entry in the BIOS jump vector list and not to the cold boot routine directly. A lot programs used the cold boot jump at 0000 to find the BIOS jump list--just take the address in the jump instruction and set the low byte to 00. Timer as well as console interrupt I/O was pretty much necessary for MP/M functioning (interrupt-driven disk I/O was *strongly* suggested) and recommended for CP/M 3.0, as was bank-switching. I did a CP/M 2.2 implementation using interrupt-driven I/O for everything but the memory-mapped display. It worked pretty well, but the effort was wasted for the disk I/O--there was nothing to do while you were waiting for the operation to complete. On the other hand, it did make writing an MP/M XIOS much simpler. > IObyte was mostly uniform, the problem was often it wasnt even > implemented. This was a problem of allowing the BIOS spec to be > minimal and it usually was. The problem with IOBYTE is that it was defined in terms of console, reader, punch and list. Well, most systems didn't have a "reader" or "punch". This made what to do with those items a matter of implementation. BDOS Function 3 is defined as "Reader Input" and 4 as "Punch Output". > Ignorant, I think no, they gave the hooks and basic requirements. It was > up to the BIOS developer to do a good job or just enough. By the time that 2.2 was offered, most CP/M systems were CRT oriented with a printer and perhaps a serial port used to connect to a modem. Instead of acknowledging that as the model configuration, DRI stubbornly stayed with TTY and paper tape as their model of character I/O. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Jan 31 22:04:12 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:04:12 -0500 Subject: interact model one -- looking for docs In-Reply-To: <47A27F53.9070607@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <16B4C1AC1D5D@dunfield.com> > Hello vintage microcomputer fans. > > I recently bought an Interact Model One computer on ebay > (#150208636366). It was in good shape and it went relatively cheaply. > This beastie is 8080 based, and has very coarse color graphics. Mine is > unusual in that it has a white housing and a real keyboard, not the ash > gray case and tiny rubber keys of all the other interacts I've seen. It > has an integrated cassette deck, and no ROM BASIC -- that has to be > loaded from tape. By all measures is was really a miserable little > runt. :-) I have an Interact - it's in the gray case, but has a real keyboard. I've also got a spare mainboard, tape drive, keyboard and a LOT of tapes for it (IIRC 52 different titles). Unfortunately I think the only manual I have is the Level II BASIC manual you can see in the photos on my site ... I will take a look however and see if I have any additional information. If that one is desirable to you, I can see about scanning it. I can also take detailed photos, trace circuits etc. using the spare mainboard and tape drive. I can also trace out the Joystick wiring if that would help. (I really should redo the photos - they were taken back when I had the Olympus camera that simply could not be coerced into focusing...) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 23:27:29 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:27:29 -0600 Subject: DEC LA180 printer In-Reply-To: <0f7a6a694f.harten@injectstar.de> References: <0f7a6a694f.harten@injectstar.de> Message-ID: <624966d60801312127m7e77ed71q4b2a0f83ea6f937c@mail.gmail.com> My books are still in storage,( basement wall are up! ), but I seem to recall the LA36 had adjustments on the servo. Could the LA180? Paul On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Harten wrote: > I slipped off the belt from the motor pulley. Now the motor > can turn without moving the carriage. I tried to turn the motor > by hand (power off) and it can be turned easily. > On power up the motor starts to turn for about one second and > then stopps with the bell continously beeping (till power off). > > I observed the signals -carry-, -borrow- and -inc- with an oscilloscope. > They are there when the motor turns but are the timings o.k.? > > > Regards > > Axel Harten. > From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 31 02:53:03 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:53:03 +0100 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? In-Reply-To: <0JVH005D4D5CCIG4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JVH005D4D5CCIG4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <47A18C6F.8030207@iais.fraunhofer.de> Allison schrieb: >> The great thing about CP/M (and I'm talking about the 8-bit version >> here) was that it imposed a file system and made disk I/O uniform-- >> 128 byte sectors, regardless of how the information was actually >> formatted onto a drive. CP/M was really primitive when it came to >> console I/O, giving only about 3 functions for output and input each. >> No cursor positioning or screen control; basic TTY style I/O. And, >> while there was an IOBYTE facility to redirect I/O, implementation >> was very nonuniform between vendors. >> > > Things like Termcap and the lise were not needed. However the console > IO was not so good. Try printing a string containing $ using the print > string call. The other was passing 8bit data when needed. > Termcap was very needed, but not present. Net result was that almost any software that required terminal control beyond backspace and CRLF had to be tweaked manually. I remember having written code to fit in the Wordstar patch area to adapt to some obscure or not so obscure terminal dozens of times. Termcap and terminfo under the various Unixes of the time was god-sent then even if some entries were plainly buggy - maybe just estimated from some hear-say information. The print string BDOS function was indeed an example that was almost immediately replaced by do-it-yourself routines, often by using the '\0' delimiter (which then caused trouble with slow terminals that require some delaying NUL bytes after a CRLF). > IObyte was mostly uniform, the problem was often it wasnt even > implemented. This was a problem of allowing the BIOS spec to be > minimal and it usually was. > IO byte, besides as you correctly remarked not being implemented at all, was outdated soon after CP/M was released for the Altair. I haven't seen many paper tape readers and punches connected to CP/M systems for serious business work. IObyte did not take care of additional devices beyond the 4 standard devices; it did not deal well with additional serial or parallel ports for more terminals and printers. This resulted in unofficial BIOS extensions to get such available hardware into the boat, and again unportable programs to swap vectors in to BIOS to write output to a second printer, for instance. Needless to say that "well-written" software to use the IOByte failed to use these additional devices - there was even software that insisted that PTP is dumb and AUX is intelligent, so abusing these pseudo devices for two printers resulted in different behaviour. > Ignorant, I think no, they gave the hooks and basic requirements. It > was up to the BIOS developer to do a good job or just enough. I've > repeatedly posted that if anything CP/M prevents little and you can > do a great deal at the bios level to really deliver a better system. > The best way to illustrate this is try a system with basic IO and one > with a full interrupt drive IO. The first thing you notice is the > ability to type ahead and the system feels more responsive. > Since the BIOS reduced the available space for BDOS and TPA - which admittedly improved with CP/M+, which, however, IMHO came too late - many vendors came up with a not so elaborate BIOS but rather tweaked the sample code from DRI. It was plainly easier to add some custom program to directly hack the non standard hardware than extend the BIOS with useful, clever and portable features. What has been the GHz mania of the processor later was at that time the "xxK TPA available" selling argument. >> Likewise, it wasn't MS-DOS that was the great advance for the IBM PC >> platform, but rather the well-documented BIOS and I/O interfaces. >> Heck, PC-DOS 1.0 wasn't that different from CP/M-86--you still had to >> do your disk I/O through FCBs, just like CP/M. I believe, to this >> day, you can still issue your DOS calls by loading (CL) with the >> request number and calling TPA:0005. >> CP/M-86 and MS DOS were initially designed to allow a simple 8080->8086 cross translator to run the whole set of already existing CP/M applications without reinventing the wheel. Later DOS versions added Xenix compatible calls (equivalents of Unix raw I/O: open, close, read, write, lseek, unlink) but often still the well-understood FCB crap was used. The call to TPA:0005 is still present in contemporary MS-DOS versions, as well as INT21h calls; however today the "DOS box" under Windows just prepares the environment for such old DOS programs and uses virtualization to fake an existing DOS. You can't trace an INT21h call any longer into an MSDOS.SYS or IO.SYS. -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 31 07:59:00 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:59:00 -0500 Subject: Q-BUS primer? Message-ID: <0JVI0003QGY1KYQE@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Q-BUS primer? > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:12:16 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi Guys, > >Recently acquired a goodly amount of DEC gear - I had put the Q-BUS >stuff aside while I got the "all in one" VAXstation/VAXservers up and >running, but I'm starting to collect information - I've no experience >whatsoever with Q-bus, but from what I've read, I understand that it >will take a bit of research to determine how to properly configure >and position the boards. Here comes a huge first shot. Any questions ask. I've likely answered them before. I have here most every Qbus configuration for PDP-11 and a few DEC would never support and a few Qbus uVAX too. All operational. If you liked programming the 6809 the PDP-11 will be familair and even nicer. (CUBIX-11). Any (and all) of the late 70s through mid 80s "MicroComputer Handbooks" [microcomputers and memories, Microcomputer interfacing handbook] DEC put out. They are chock full of info, explanation and are just gotta have items. The PDP11 and MicroVAX have heavy overlap in the Q-bus realm so any and all info for one will be helpfull for the other. Those books will help with.. PDP11 programming (or microVAX) PDP11 modules and their jumpers Standard addresses for various functions Some info on standard configurations including what board goes where. Boot code for many devices Mxxxx to function conversion DEC history! >I'm hoping that I have enough material to built up at least one >(possibly 2) nice little PDP-11's, and/or a MicroVax II) To make a system you need roughtly (pdp11). A box with power, backplane and at least minimal front pannel (three switch) A CPU be it LSI-11 or M8186 the latter is mroe versitile. An SL serial port configured as console (dl11 or better DLV11J OR MXV11) My prefernce is the 11j and seperate ram as the MXV is a sea of jumpers. However teh MXV-11 Two or up to 4 total make for a compact systems with boot and IO galore. the MXV11s mostly seenare limited to Q18 configurations due to limited address decoding but fully populated boards times four Gives you 64KW (128KB) with is a moderately large memory system and also 8 serial lines 4 PPI! Popular card for embedded systems. Memory at least 4K more for an OS (16k minimum) To run an OS some form of mass storage (could be a Tu58 emulator running on a PC on A serial port) A good OS to start with is RT-11, compact, small ram fooprint and can run from any device 256k or larger, looks like dos. ;) NOTE: The LSI-11 is the oldest and has some bus configuration items to pay attnetion to. It's limited to 32KW addressing (Q16) and when you remove the IO page (PDP-11 and VAX use memory mapped IO) typical space is 26KW (big for basic 11). The M8186 is the F11 cipset and has MMU also (Q18/Q22) can address larger memory. Most all 8186s I've seen despite handbooks claims of only Q18 addressing do Q22 (22bit). It's also much faster than the LSI-11. >At this point, all I'm really looking for is a good "starting point". >Can anyone recomment a good document/resources for a Q-bus newbie? > >Btw, this is what I've got - If there's anything I'm obviously missing, >or will have to find extra parts for, please advise me so that I can >start looking... > >Three chassis: > BA-23: complete with outer shell and end caps. It bears a > "MicroVAX II" label on the console switch panel, and has a > floppy drive (dual disk) installed in it. The dual floppy is RX50. The front pannel is processor specific as are the real pannel (if present!) inserts. That box works for both Q-bus 11 cpus and Qbus uVAX cpus. > I don't know the model numbers for the next two: > - One looks like a BA32 but smaller, and has the "3-switch" PDP > console/display panel on it. The cards are inserted from the > front beside the panel. BA11N BAllVA??? Should have a label somewhere identifying it. > - The last one is the smallest, looks much like the one above, > complete with 3-switch console/display panel, however instead > of metal side/top/bottom plates, it has a "wire cage". It also > has a second expansion chassis of similar construction with no > power supply or console panel. Generally the DEC backplanes are wirecage to cupport the guides and the backplane at the end with power and control connectors. >I've got the following DEC Q-BUS cards: >(Descriptions taken from the "Field Guide to Q-BUS and Unbus modules" > >M3106 4-line async >M7264 11/03 processor with 4-Kword RAM That is the base "LSI-11" cpu card. Use in many machines and even the H11. >M7504 Ethernet adapter (older DEQNA) Older and often flaky, if it works keep it, if unsure keep it. >M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50 >M7555 Winchester and floppy disk controller AKA the RQDX3 controller for MFM and floppy(RX50 and RX33 aka TEAC FD55GFR). >M7606 MicroVAX II KA630 >M7608 x2 2/4 MB RAM (boards are fully populated) uVAXII cpu has matching ram with an over the top IDE cable. M7608 is ONLY for uVAXII. >M7940 x2 SLU Module DL-11 card, generic serial line interface. That an older one but very useable. Pair that up with LSI-11 cpu. >M7944 x3 4-Kword RAM Goes with the LSI-11 CPU. >M7946 x2 RX01 floppy disk controller It's not teh FDC it's really only the bus interface to the FDC. The drive RX01 has a simple randome logic processor to do all the heavy lifiting. RX01 is SSSD 8" standard. >M8043 x2 4-SLU peripheral interface DLV11J, the standard 4 serial line interface for QBUS. >M8044DB x2 32Kword RAM >M8044DF x2 32Kword RAM For qbus 11 systems. >M8047 RAM, Async, ROMs MXV11 compact card with a million jumpers that gives you yp to 32kB of ram, ROm, 2 serial(DL compatable) and parallel(8255). >M8186 11/23 CPU First generation F11 cpu, fine board has uODT in microcode. ODT is a very simple Octal based (all 11s are octal) monitor debugger. >M9047 Grant continuity Always handy for filling holes. The bus is wires such that interrupt and DMA grant are passed through eash card so that the highest priority requestor is nearest the CPU. >M9400YA 120-ohm terminators with refresh & floppy boot used with Qbus 11 cpus that are romless. can boot RX01 and I think two otehr devicves >M9400YE Headers and 250 Ohm resistors bus terminator reqired in some cases optional in others not wanted in some. >I've also got the following third party cards - I don't know >anything about these, other than the identifying marks found >on the boards listed below - if anyone can provide more >information on these, that would be helpful: (Several of them >appear to be media controllers of one sort or another). > >Andromedia Systems UDC-11 rev H (50 pin connector at front edge) Memory says same as RQDXn. desireable board if you have info. >Micro Technology Inc. MSV05B (x2) (50 pin connector at front edge) >TD Systems TDL-11H/A (50 pin connwctor at front edge) >Xylogics "Wizard 1" (50 pin connector at front edge) >SDC-RXVZ1 "8202 FD Controller" (50 pin connector at front edge) >Versatec LSI-11 P/P Interface (40 pin connector at front edge) >Sigma Information Systems Assy 40100 > - This board has one 40 + one 50 pin connector, and a place to > populate another 40 pin - none are at the front edge. >W951 "Flip Chip" > - This board has places for various sized chips (most of them populated) > with pins to wire-wrap connections between them - looks like some sort > of prototyping board. > >+ A couple of the little grant continuity boards. > >I don't expect this to be a short journy, but it should be interesting... >Thanks in advance for any advice/tips. > >Regards, >Dave > > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 31 08:21:58 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:21:58 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? Message-ID: <0JVI00025IK9CS13@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? > From: Jim Battle > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:01:43 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Holger Veit wrote: >.... >> The interrupt and DMA handling was also lousy thanks to DR abusing some >> 8080 and even worse Z80 RST vector locations for the BDOS and CCP >> buffers and FCBs. ... > >That is one thing I always wondered about. CP/M has "CALL 0005H" as the >BIOS entry point. Why didn't they map it to 0008H instead? Considering >that code space was at a premium, saving two bytes off of every BIOS >call would have been an obvious optimization, I would have thought. If one takes a moment some of that was INTEL MDS artifact that were programmed around. Also there are plenty of unused RST vectors. For the later systems the 8259 was available and it inserted a CALL XXXX where XXXX was anywere in addressable memory. The Z80 in mode2 interrupt also could vector anywhere in ram. DMA is not impacted by how the low page is used. Generally it's a non-issue and easy to work with. >On the other hand, I never wrote any 8080 code that used RST, so maybe >there is some gotcha that I don't know about. No it's a one byte call to 8 canned locations in the bottom of ram. RST0 is to 0000h (warm boot) (locations 0000-0007 are used by cpm) RST1 is to 0008h (nothing there) RST2 is to 0010h RST3 is to 0018h RST4 is to 0020h RST5 is to 0028h RST6 is to 0030h RST7 is to 0038h (used by DDT as trap) None of the 8085 hardware RSTx.5 or Trap interrupt lines conflict with anything as they fall i the nothing there range. Z80 NMI lands at 66h which is in the default FCB/DMA area that goes from 005Ch to 00FFh >Anyone have opinions why it was done with CALL 0005H instead? It's explicit either works but only one allows coding to look like: Call BDOS ; Bdos defined as 0005h which reads easier than RST5 ; call location 005 >The only thing I can come up with is that DR might have entertained, >early on, making CP/M relocatable to different addresses (eg, some >vendor wants an OS that lives in high memory). In the process of >patching all the code for the high addresses, substituting "CALL 0FF05H" >instead of "CALL 0005H" is trivial, but substituting "CALL 0FF05H" for >"RST 1" would be a problem. Yes, one could require such systems to have >a "ORG 0005H / JMP 0FF05H" vector. I'm grasping at straws here. Yes straws. CP/M loads to the last typically 8k of high ram and sparsely uses the first 256byte page as a system area. Everything inbetween is open land but CP/M convention is executables start at 100H and have space that can continue as high as the start of the BIOS (if you need cold boot) or 3.5K lower if you need BDOS services. The CCP is considered overlayable. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 31 09:07:00 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:07:00 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? Message-ID: <0JVI00MUDKNA65Q6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? > From: Holger Veit > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:53:03 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Allison schrieb: >>> The great thing about CP/M (and I'm talking about the 8-bit version >>> here) was that it imposed a file system and made disk I/O uniform-- >>> 128 byte sectors, regardless of how the information was actually >>> formatted onto a drive. CP/M was really primitive when it came to >>> console I/O, giving only about 3 functions for output and input each. >>> No cursor positioning or screen control; basic TTY style I/O. And, >>> while there was an IOBYTE facility to redirect I/O, implementation >>> was very nonuniform between vendors. >>> >> >> Things like Termcap and the lise were not needed. However the console >> IO was not so good. Try printing a string containing $ using the print >> string call. The other was passing 8bit data when needed. >> >Termcap was very needed, but not present. Net result was that almost any >software that required terminal control beyond backspace and CRLF had to >be tweaked manually. IN that sense yes. Is it requried of the OS no. Does the OS need it, no. CP/M was minimal as it's day ram was expensive interms of cost, power and space. Was it short sighted, yes. Would it have been implmented right in 1975? No as terminals were just starting to have basic intelligence and maybe 2-3 years later what would the requirements be like? > I remember having written code to fit in the >Wordstar patch area to adapt to some obscure or not so obscure terminal >dozens of times. Termcap and terminfo under the various Unixes of the >time was god-sent then even if some entries were plainly buggy - maybe >just estimated from some hear-say information. Many others too like Vedit. It was a one time task, not nice but compact. Whats more interesting is there was nothing to prevent a termcap file and later improved CP/M work alikes did exactly that and many more things. The bottom line is sans BIOS where do you put termcap in a OS thats only 5.5KB? As to unix, it was the big machine OS and was not going to run on a 256kb floppy. It was only popular in academic and research and far from mainstream till the mid 80s. >The print string BDOS function was indeed an example that was almost >immediately replaced by do-it-yourself routines, often by using the '\0' >delimiter (which then caused trouble with slow terminals that require >some delaying NUL bytes after a CRLF). Or the +80H (end of line on high bit set). >> IObyte was mostly uniform, the problem was often it wasnt even >> implemented. This was a problem of allowing the BIOS spec to be >> minimal and it usually was. >> >IO byte, besides as you correctly remarked not being implemented at all, >was outdated soon after CP/M was released for the Altair. I haven't seen >many paper tape readers and punches connected to CP/M systems for >serious business work. IObyte did not take care of additional devices >beyond the 4 standard devices; it did not deal well with additional >serial or parallel ports for more terminals and printers. This resulted >in unofficial BIOS extensions to get such available hardware into the >boat, and again unportable programs to swap vectors in to BIOS to write >output to a second printer, for instance. Needless to say that >"well-written" software to use the IOByte failed to use these additional >devices - there was even software that insisted that PTP is dumb and AUX >is intelligent, so abusing these pseudo devices for two printers >resulted in different behaviour. Paper tape and Punch were rare in most CP/M systems and often unimplmented. I tend to implment the console and list fields (upper and lower two bits) completes to use the printer ports and second (and third serial if available). Andy Johnson-Laird The Programmers CP/M Handbook went far to extend and clarify both what the BIOS can do and more. >> Ignorant, I think no, they gave the hooks and basic requirements. It >> was up to the BIOS developer to do a good job or just enough. I've >> repeatedly posted that if anything CP/M prevents little and you can >> do a great deal at the bios level to really deliver a better system. >> The best way to illustrate this is try a system with basic IO and one >> with a full interrupt drive IO. The first thing you notice is the >> ability to type ahead and the system feels more responsive. >> >Since the BIOS reduced the available space for BDOS and TPA - which >admittedly improved with CP/M+, which, however, IMHO came too late - >many vendors came up with a not so elaborate BIOS but rather tweaked the >sample code from DRI. It was plainly easier to add some custom program >to directly hack the non standard hardware than extend the BIOS with >useful, clever and portable features. What has been the GHz mania of the >processor later was at that time the "xxK TPA available" selling argument. Actually I'm running system with CP/M-V2.2 that page the BIOS and have multiple hard disks and a tpa in the 62-63k range. CP/M+ is not required to achive that. But both approaches need some kind of memory paging and the ram/rom and a BIOS to support it. The otehr issue is most developers didn't have a useful system interrupts or were time pressed enough to feel that it was worth it. By useful interrupts I mean.. most early S100 8080 machine if you pulled the interupt line the default was vector to 38H as that was RST7 (11111111b) which happend as a result of pull up resistors. that location is ued by DDT for trap. Early Z80s also did that. later 8080/8085 and Z80 systems implmented basic vectored interrupts so how you could use RST 2 through 6 and that meant resonable interrupt drivers wer possible. The Z80 SBCs like Ampro and others that used the Z80 peripherals all had the Z80 vectored system which was powerful and a bit intimidating to those that hand not used them before. As you can se the whole interrupt thing was not CP/M as a limiting factor but hardware or implementor understanding. For those that never used a really nice bios try a VT180, it didn't do two sided but those disks where just emerging at the time. It did implement interrupts with ring buffers for IO. The other thing was DMA. On S100 is was a timing and bus nightmare and took years to almost get right. Many of the single baord systems omitted it as it took space (8257 or later 8237 40 pin chips and a latch). It works fine and made useful systems. However it means the CPU is locked up for the duration of the transfer and cannot respond to interupts making for poor latency as floppies are slow. Again CP/M doesn't care how the transfer happens only that it does happen. So the fist system built with DMA was a real eye opener. First it allowed background activities to run faster and smoother like a line printer spooler. also interrupts could be used byy the disk system to say "ready" or "ready with error". Thats a lot of available CPU cycles. the biggest areas of change is that modem programs werent pausing for disk IO, they could fill a big (say 16k) circular buffer and the cpu can be processing interrupts for IO and disk to manage transfers rather than doing a lot of waiting in loops. It doesn't take a lot more code but the complexity and debugging is greater due to the near concurrent activities. >>> Likewise, it wasn't MS-DOS that was the great advance for the IBM PC >>> platform, but rather the well-documented BIOS and I/O interfaces. >>> Heck, PC-DOS 1.0 wasn't that different from CP/M-86--you still had to >>> do your disk I/O through FCBs, just like CP/M. I believe, to this >>> day, you can still issue your DOS calls by loading (CL) with the >>> request number and calling TPA:0005. >>> >CP/M-86 and MS DOS were initially designed to allow a simple 8080->8086 >cross translator to run the whole set of already existing CP/M >applications without reinventing the wheel. Later DOS versions added >Xenix compatible calls (equivalents of Unix raw I/O: open, close, read, >write, lseek, unlink) but often still the well-understood FCB crap was >used. The call to TPA:0005 is still present in contemporary MS-DOS >versions, as well as INT21h calls; Thats what I believe in too for dos. >however today the "DOS box" under Windows just prepares the environment >for such old DOS programs and uses virtualization to fake an existing >DOS. You can't trace an INT21h call any longer into an MSDOS.SYS or IO.SYS. Yes thats true after NT flavored took over (NT, Win2k XP and likely vista). for win 3.1x it was dos with gui and for Win9x dos was very much there. I ahve Dos7 and dos8 which is extractable from win9x. Nothing worth reporting there. :) Allison > >-- >Holger > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 31 09:30:48 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:30:48 -0500 Subject: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? Message-ID: <0JVI00JJLLQZHWL3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "CP/M compatible" vs. "MS-DOS Compatible" machines? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:06:29 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:44:40 +0100 >> From: Holger Veit > >> MSDOS was much better in abstracting hardware, because it had a loadable >> driver concept. > >Loadable drivers didn't come along until MS/PC DOS 2.0. Before that, >adding another device, say an extra disk drive, was a brutal >patchwork affair. CP/M 86 was far more advanced (for that matter, >CP/M Plus was too) than MS DOS 1.x. As a matter of fact, the DOS 1.1 >reference material included information not only on commands, but >system table layout, .EXE file structure and system requests. ONE >disk buffer for blocking/deblocking. Read and write transferred one >record to and from the DTA. Flat file structure; file I/O done with >FCBs. As a matter of fact, if you didn't know any better, you'd have >sworn that someone took CP/M 2.2 and ported it to the 8086. > >MS-DOS 2.0 was a huge advance over 1.1; by Microsoft's own admission, >the goal was to get closer to Xenix in operability. Roger that. >> Point is there in both cases: the hardware designers did not foresee how >> their hardware could or should be used by software, so they basically >> implanted the bare chips, not even respecting IRQ and DMA requirements; >> the OS developers did not foresee usable and extensible interfaces to >> access and abstract various hardware and just hacked something that it >> would somehow work; and finally the application designers found the whole >> base OS functions where plain unusable and reinvented, each one >> differently, the wheel, leaving burnt ground for others that somehow >> required similar functions - "thou shall not use the printer port for your >> dongle, I have it already." > >20-20 hindsight is great, but let's take it from the viewpoint of the >times. There were very many CP/M systems around at the time with >*no* interrupt or DMA support. Remember that the 5150 made extensive >use of peripheral chips that were from the 8-bit world (8237, 8253, >8259, 8255, not to mention the NS8250), so the fact that DMA and an >interrupt controller (with 8 interrupt levels yet) and a timer was >somewhat remarkable considering the competition. DING! Thats is the point. the 5150 was running at 4.77mhz which by 8088 standard of the day was SLOW. but it wasnt sitting the cpu in tight loops waiting for keypressed or FDC data ready. Every Z80 system that did exactly that was nothing short of phenominal to use and could easily blow the doors off a 5150. I worked with a one off Multibus system at that time that had Z80/6mhz 64k shadow rom DMA floppy controller and later ST506 hard disk. For text based work, cross assemblers it was light years faster. >Although the BIOS functions came a long way as the PC evolved, MS-DOS >still ran on a 5150, so the added BIOS functionality couldn't be >exploited. Also the early bios was only 16k than even two years later it was twice the size. Reason ram and rom became cheaper and larger. More space more functions. >The parallel port was designed as a printer port; the fact that it >was used for other things can hardly be blamed on MS-DOS. The >printer port does what it was designed to do extremely well. The >fact that a dongle designer was so short-sighted as to not provide >printer pass-through functionality can hardly be laid on the >designers of the PC. >Personally, I'm surprised the light pen interface wasn't used for >more things. That never caught on. I think when it could have the CPU was still too slow to do the work. Allison From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 31 17:26:25 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:26:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: never knew DOS system files *weren't* resettable In-Reply-To: <20080131113517.F52444@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <240864.98156.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> The subject line should have read "weren't" resettable. Until I learned better that is... the only reason I brought up XP was for the fact that I couldn't see any hidden files no matter what I did (this experiment if you will was to get DOS onto a moderately vintage system. Ok it too would probably be considered off-topic also, but DOS is always on-topic in my book. And should be in yours too! ;). Anyway, what I learned was that you could -s -h at the same time, but weren't allowed to individually -s a hidden file, nor -h a system file (this are the command line switches to be used w/ATTRIB obviously). You could unhide and unsystem at the same time (or *hide* and *system* a file simulataneously). So...I managed to get io.sys and msdos.sys to *materialize* in an XP folder view - this worked for DOS 5.0 (bootdisk.com) but not 6.22. AAMOF the ATTRIB of 6.22 would generate an error - "incorrect DOS version" or whatever when I tried to change things on it. Maybe it's hacked up. Maybe my lt is hacked up LOL. Anyway, all's well that ends well. I got my Fujitsu Stylistic 1000 to boot. Got DOS onto the compact flash card to begin with using the HP USB Disk Storage Format Tool - in, you guessed it, a USB card reader. You can download it if you look for it. --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Chris M wrote: > > is there any way to make these visible? I'm trying > to > > do something funky, and for some reason XP won't > > *visualize* the hidden files on a boot disk > > (bootdisk.com). I tried unhiding them with attrib, > but > > it tells me uh uh. What to do? Yes I did change my > > folder option to display hidden files, but to no > avail. > > Back in the days when those files were on-topic, . . > . > IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS were S_ystem, H_idden, AND > R_ead-only. > XP might not let you turn off the Hidden bit unless > you also turn off the > System and Read-only bits. > ATTRIB foo -S -H -R > > > You can floppy boot DOS 7 from Win98, and get a more > familiar/cooperative > working environment. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping