From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 1 00:10:55 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 00:10:55 -0600 Subject: HP 2112A References: Message-ID: <023c01c745c7$bc9183d0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > All the HP 21MX posts got me interested in finding out what I have with > the > HP 2112A I recently got and what I'm missing. Woohoo, a M series. Those aren't so common. > The back end (where all the I/O cards go) is empty. You'll want some I/O cards. Also get a TBG (time base generator), many OS's want this. > In the front there is the DCPC, Memory Protection, > M.E.M. (Memory Extension Module), 3 memory cards and Memory Controller. Sounds like you're all set there. Make sure you have the DMS daughterboard in addition to the base set microcode daughterboard. I *THINK* I have a spare DMS microcode board for the M series. > I > believe I can see 3 loader ROM chips installed on the CPU board (assuming > I'm looking in the right place - front right side of the board as I'm > facing > it). Do a IBL of each loader rom and jot down the first 8 words or so of the last 64 words of ram. Then you can look in the loader manual and see what loaders you have. Some versions of the M series metalwork allow you to see the rom part numbers directly though, that may be more expedient. Don't bother with the options written in the front door panel, they are often outdated/wrong. On some boards loader rom 0 is soldered in and is paper tape. However, I have a few M series boards where ALL the roms are socketed, and I have found other loader roms besides paper tape in rom 0, so check all 4, not just the 3. > Of the 3 optional Control Store modules in the back, the middle one is > mounted under the CPU, but the other two are not there. I do not recall for sure if the base set microcode MUST be the bottom right (as viewed from the top front). I think it may actually be able to reside in any of the three positions, but I could be way wrong about this. The base set is of course required. Then you'd want the DMS (optionally) microcode too if you want to use memory above 32kw (and have that much memory). Note that if you want DMS, you have to set jumpers on boards in addition to installing the microcode. Ditto if the DMS option was removed. > The back label says "2112A" and lists the following options: > 12978A (Writeable Control Store Diagnostic) > 12992B (Disk boot ROM) > 12992C (Terminal boot ROM) > I figured out from the bitsavers document and another online document that > these are the 3 ROM options I saw. The paper tape loader ROM is soldered > in > with the M-series machines, according to the online documents I read. Not on all M series machines it's not. I have never seen or heard anything about 12978A Writable Control Store Diagnostic. I'm very intruiged. > 12897A (DCPC) > 12892A (Mem Protect) > 13187Ax2 (16k Mem) I'm assuming theres MEM (memory expansion module) and a memory controller (2102) in there somewhere too? > So it looks to me like I need some I/O boards (13175 disk drive interface, > 12966 or 12968 terminal interface, 12597 paper tape interface), and > probably > the other Control Store modules to flesh this thing out (not to mention > the > cables to connect to peripherals). Does all that sound right? You want some I/O cards, the problem is which ones. Do you have any peripherals for it already? I use mostly 12531's, and some 12966's for consoles. Paper tape can be one of several boards. There's several different disk drive interfaces too, depending on what drives you have or want to get. You may or may not need other control store modules, depending on if the base set must be on the bottom right (ie. is what you have the base set or some option set). Sounds like you have a handle on it to me. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 1 00:21:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 00:21:22 -0600 Subject: * EMERGENCY * Shipping Question References: <20070111105833.GA32258@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <1168553057.5968.65.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <027901c745c9$320c2bf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Warren wrote... > I just bought the afore-mentioned HP Rack for my new HP > minicomputer. So Warren... did it arrive safe & sound? Does your 21MX/E look all nice & spiffy in it? Jay From g-wright at att.net Thu Feb 1 01:19:04 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 07:19:04 +0000 Subject: Cromemco Unix? Message-ID: <020120070719.12009.45C19467000929D000002EE921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Gene Buckle > Odd Cromemco system: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/CROMEMCO-SUPER-MICROCOMPUTER-VINTAGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcateg > oryZ56084QQihZ010QQitemZ200074941857QQrdZ1 > > I've never seen this machine before. I had no idea Cromemco was into Unix. > > g. > > Yes, they did have sys V in the later years. I have both Cromix and system V systems here. Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Feb 1 01:20:27 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:20:27 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <45C0F577.13302.10C0EDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C162DD.9070907@simpits.com> <45C0F577.13302.10C0EDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Didn't Cromemco have a *nix-look-kinda-similar called "Cromix"? > Yes, but it's possible they moved to a real Unix at some point. With a 68010, this could have had a real virtual memory unix on it. The original Cromix started on their multiuser Z80 systems. I see the manuals at vt100.com. I wonder if anyone has disk images? If I had the $$ to ship it, I'd buy it just to archive the drive. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Feb 1 01:20:27 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:20:27 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <45C0F577.13302.10C0EDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C162DD.9070907@simpits.com> <45C0F577.13302.10C0EDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Didn't Cromemco have a *nix-look-kinda-similar called "Cromix"? > Yes, but it's possible they moved to a real Unix at some point. With a 68010, this could have had a real virtual memory unix on it. The original Cromix started on their multiuser Z80 systems. I see the manuals at vt100.com. I wonder if anyone has disk images? If I had the $$ to ship it, I'd buy it just to archive the drive. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 02:07:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:07:43 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <020120070719.12009.45C19467000929D000002EE921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <020120070719.12009.45C19467000929D000002EE921604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <45C12F4F.9987.1EDFC65@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 7:19, g-wright at att.net wrote: > Yes, they did have sys V in the later years. I have both Cromix > and system V systems here. That doesn't surprise me. Around 1982, it seemed that everytime it rained, a new offering of some flavor of Unix on a 68K box would spring up from a crack in the pavement. The general idea was that you didn't need a minicomputer; you could have it all in a microcomputer for less money. Few survived. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 1 02:15:35 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:15:35 +0000 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C13E43.8080101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 1/2/07 01:11, "Jules Richardson" wrote: >> Didn't my post about the BeBox make it to the list? Curse my exim mail >> server, what's it doing now...... > > Ooops - it may well have done. Having just done the hop across the pond again, > I'm playing catch-up on the mailing list - so I'm sort of flicking through the > couple-of-hundred-or-so messages that have appeared in the last few days and I > may have just missed it :-) They let you back in again? I'm impressed! :) > Re. BeBox, I hesitated about mentioning it from a styling point of view; > architecturally it was definitely interesting, and in so far as I've studied > ours the build quality seems good, but the case does kind of shout "PC > look-a-like" somewhat :-) Well yes, casewise, but what about the blinkenlights on the front and the geekport on the back... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 1 03:10:35 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 04:10:35 -0500 Subject: * EMERGENCY * Shipping Question In-Reply-To: <027901c745c9$320c2bf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20070111105833.GA32258@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <1168553057.5968.65.camel@linux.site> <027901c745c9$320c2bf0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1170321035.32369.0.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 00:21 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Warren wrote... > > I just bought the afore-mentioned HP Rack for my new HP > > minicomputer. > So Warren... did it arrive safe & sound? Does your 21MX/E look all nice & > spiffy in it? Still in process.... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 1 03:28:22 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 04:28:22 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> Ahoy the list.... Arty computers, eh? I've watched this thread with some care, and I have to say, considering the population of the list, that nobody has mentioned the DEC computers so near and dear to many of your hearts. >From the incredible PDP-1, with it's monitor that looked like the scanner from a futuristic spaceship, the cockpit look of the PDP-12, to the incredible Oh-So-Seventies Op-Art look of much of the line, with the PDP-8 in Earthtone profusion, the Diabolic looking PDP-11/40, and the ballsy PDP-11/70 with the outrageous red and purple color scheme, why didn't I see even ONE reference to them? I am not a PDP man myself, at least not much. I only ended up actually working on a PDP-11/23 (which is one of the LEAST artistic of the line, BTW.) Come on... stand up for your machines! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Feb 1 03:52:00 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 04:52:00 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Unix? Message-ID: <01C745BC.D353C840@MSE_D03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:14:16 -0800 From: Gene Buckle Subject: Cromemco Unix? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Odd Cromemco system: http://cgi.ebay.com/CROMEMCO-SUPER-MICROCOMPUTER-VINTAGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ56084QQihZ010QQitemZ200074941857QQrdZ1 I've never seen this machine before. I had no idea Cromemco was into Unix. g. ---------------Reply: Nothing odd about it; they'd had Cromix, a sort-of-UNIX available on their Z80 and 68000 systems since around 1980, but by the mid-80s they finally cried uncle and made UNIX systems available with the x20 series, essentially the same S-100 boxes as the older ones, i.e. a 120 was essentially an upgraded System 1, a 220 an upgraded CS-2 (Z-2) and the 320 was the System 3 (8" FD), all with slightly changed styling, a 68010 or 68020 with a 68881, minimum 2MB, minimum 9 ports and an external DC600 tape drive. They also brought out a new CS-400/420 tower version with the tape drive built in. The x00 series were essentially the same systems but running Cromix, although since they were S-100 systems you could put whatever cards you wanted into them and run whatever you wanted, even CP/M or CDOS (their CP/M clone), although with the later CPU boards without a Z80 those programs ran on the Z80 in the I/O processor. I believe there was also a 4000 Mammoth running parallel 68030s on the VME bus, although I don't have one and have never even seen one. I've got two of the 420s sitting on my verandah gathering snow; wonder what the cold'll do to the infamous rollers in the tape drives... I could dig out some old price lists if anyone's interested in the available models. mike From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Feb 1 04:56:51 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 05:56:51 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: References: <45C0F577.13302.10C0EDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200702011055.l11AttIe031924@hosting.monisys.ca> > The original Cromix started on their multiuser Z80 systems. I see the > manuals at vt100.com. I wonder if anyone has disk images? I have the Z-80 Cromix running on one of my System-3's, and yes I have install disk images up on my site. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 08:37:45 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:37:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <677826.27335.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have a HUGE softspot in my heart for the TRS-80 Model I, having purchased a 16k, Level I unit in December of 1978. A unit, I still own today, I hated the keyboard too, even though I wasn't a typist, mostly because it bounced and I had to load a special keyboard de-bounce program to stop it from bouncing and getting duplicate keystrokes. As I upgraded the unit over the years into a 48k Level II unit with several disk drives and a Percom (and later LNW) Doubler, I also upgraded the keyboard. I was able to purchase through Tandy National Parts, the Model III style keyboard that came out on the Model I towards the end of it's run. This also had the added benefit of adding a keypad to the unit. As to the plastic of the case, I guess in retrospect it was cheesy. But, being a kid at the time... It never bothered me. It was certainly no less cheesy than an Apple II or a VIC 20 or an Atari 400/800. Some of the TRS-80 clones got it right I think... The LNW-80 (of which I'm a proud recent owner) and the Lobo Max-80 did a good job of making the computer less toy-like and more business like. The PMC-80 from Dick Smith seemed even more fragile and toy-like, however. As to the hardware design being none too exciting. I wouldn't know, not being a hardware guy at that level. Though, we had used the Dennis Bathory Kitsz book to hop up my Model I with LowerCase, Internal Speaker, Internal Alpha-Compatible Joystick Interface, High Speed (turbo) mod with tri-color LED to indicate Low, High, and Auto (High on most things, low on Cassette and Floppy access). Also, external reset button and composite video for an amber monitor. Computers were fun in those days. I remember applying the zaps from 80-Microcomputing to a copy of Newdos 2.1 to speed up the disk stepping and amazing the salesman at my local Radio Shack at how much faster I could make their Model I boot up. Those were the days... Al Phila, PA From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 1 08:31:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:31:07 -0600 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C1F9AB.5090205@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 1/2/07 01:11, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > They let you back in again? I'm impressed! :) Yep. I got a bit of secondary questioning by the immigration guys but nothing stressful; the guys at Chicago seem like pretty reasonable people (unlike some of the horrors I've heard about at other US airports :-) >> Re. BeBox, I hesitated about mentioning it from a styling point of view; >> architecturally it was definitely interesting, and in so far as I've studied >> ours the build quality seems good, but the case does kind of shout "PC >> look-a-like" somewhat :-) > > Well yes, casewise, but what about the blinkenlights on the front I don't know, I'm not so much of a fan of those as most people seem to be. It just seems gimmicky, but not even done in a particularly pleasing way. "stack up some LEDs and bodge them into the case" is the sort of thing I would have done to a system when I was about 15 :-) It almost looks like someone in marketing said: "we need some flashing lights on the front to attract people, but it has to cost less than a buck to do"... I think I'd rather they'd either not bothered, or spent a bit more money on it. > and the geekport on the back... Oh indeed; the hardware's pretty well thought out I think. But the case isn't *that* special, other than being a nicer colour than most "I'm trying to look like a PC" machines of that era (it's way better than Phoebe's "puke yellow", for instance ;) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 1 08:40:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 08:40:17 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS In-Reply-To: <45C00EE1.3030305@gmail.com> References: <200701310025.l0V0P8Ki016903@onyx.spiritone.com> <45C00EE1.3030305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C1FBD1.6070005@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >>> Lets face it, most computers, no matter how beautiful the design, are >>> really >>> quite ugly on the exterior. >> >> Yes, my original point. > > The next computer I'm going to build is going to be an unbroken glossy > black cube four feet on a side. Put it in a slightly larger perspex box. Pump the coolant [1] around the edges at the top and collect it again at the bottom, so that you get a pleasing "waterfall" effect cascading down the sides between the perspex and the inner shell. [1] You are going to use liquid coolant, right? :-) From mdoyle at printersupport.net Thu Feb 1 07:57:38 2007 From: mdoyle at printersupport.net (Mike Doyle) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:57:38 -0500 Subject: DATA General Stuff Message-ID: <005901c74608$f13d7d50$6401a8c0@compname> Hi, I am looking for a couple of data general 5220 crt`s can you assist Thanks Mike Doyle Printer Support Corp 508-665-6000 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 09:47:30 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:47:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS In-Reply-To: <45C1FBD1.6070005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200701310025.l0V0P8Ki016903@onyx.spiritone.com> <45C00EE1.3030305@gmail.com> <45C1FBD1.6070005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45C20B92.9060807@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> Lets face it, most computers, no matter how beautiful the design, >>>> are really quite ugly on the exterior. >>> >>> Yes, my original point. >> >> The next computer I'm going to build is going to be an unbroken glossy >> black cube four feet on a side. > > Put it in a slightly larger perspex box. Pump the coolant [1] around the > edges at the top and collect it again at the bottom, so that you get a > pleasing "waterfall" effect cascading down the sides between the perspex > and the inner shell. > > [1] You are going to use liquid coolant, right? I'm using liquid coolant, but it's not going to be quite that large of a quantity, and it's going to be running in pipes. My case is going to be a lot simpler than this. Just gloss black. No ventilation openings, no ports, no LEDs. Peace... Sridhar From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Feb 1 10:00:20 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:00:20 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > (...or "artless" computers. TRS-80 model 1?) > >You know, for all I have a soft spot for the Model 1 (it was my first >real computer), I am inclined to agree with you. There's nothing >interesting about the design, neither electroically or mechanically. >There's nothing particularly bad about it either (at least not compared >to one of its contemporaries), but it's just not interesting... I dunno... Wasn't the Model 1 the first commercial microcomputer with voice recognition abilities? [1] I remember working (read: tinkering ;-) on a Model 1 in High school (as it was abandoned by everyone once we'd gotten 6 shiny new Model 4 machines) and it had a TRS-80 branded peripheral called the "Vox-Box." It had a Citizens-Band microphone hooked into (I'm guessing) an A-D converter that hooked onto the expansion buss. I actually got it "working" but noticed that the recognition wasn't the best, and IIRC you got maybe 20 words max. The included program let you "teach" the computer digits 0-9 & a few other commands (Save/Load/etc.) This was in '83-'84 when I tinkered with it, dunno how old the "Vox-Box" actually was, tho. Did anything exist (commercially) like that previously to the Model 1? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Yes, I know it's almost a lie to call it that... but what the heck can ya expect in 48K??? ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 1 10:53:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:53:51 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: <677826.27335.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> Al wrote... >I have a HUGE softspot in my heart for the TRS-80 Model I, having purchased >a 16k, Level I unit in December of 1978. A unit, I still own today, That's the one system I don't have in my collection that I'd really like to - a TRS-80 model I with tandy monitor and perhaps the expansion unit. I never owned one, but a lot of my friends in the late 70's timeframe did and we always fought about if my Apple ][+ was better than their TRS80 :) Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 1 10:59:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:59:46 -0500 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>>> Umm, and how rare are VS60s these days? >>> >>> Two years of looking and coming up empty. >> >> Bummer. :-( I had a VS100 at one point, probably fifteen years >> ago, but I've no idea what happened to it. > > I'm not even going to *begin* thinking about the things I've missed > out on > saving in the last 30 years, don't get me started; maybe this is > the why I'm > doing this today..... Yes, I've had quite a few "slap the forehead and yell 'DOH!'" moments. :-( I'm definitely a lot more careful nowadays than I was years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 1 11:00:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:00:51 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <45C15B08.4050703@simpits.com> References: <45C15B08.4050703@simpits.com> Message-ID: <3319E717-8E3D-47F0-96F8-AF0183DF2A99@neurotica.com> On Jan 31, 2007, at 10:14 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Odd Cromemco system: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/CROMEMCO-SUPER-MICROCOMPUTER- > VINTAGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ56084QQihZ010QQitemZ200074941857QQr > dZ1 > > I've never seen this machine before. I had no idea Cromemco was > into Unix. Cromix? Wow, that machine looks like it's brand new! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 11:09:49 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:09:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: RCA 1802CE Chips Message-ID: <57217.34543.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Just to clarify: 1. These are 40pin DIP Plastic packaged Chips 2. These are CPU chips, not eproms 3. These are not free. We have to pay someone for them. I am doing someone a favor and offering them to people who would most appreciate them. These are the same chips used on the COSMAC ELF. If you are repairing an old unit, or building one of the new clones... You might want some of these. We only have a limited amount of chips. Once these are gone, I can't get any more. Al From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 11:17:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:17:58 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> On the subject of systems that are all pretty skin and no guts, does anyone remember the direct-contact water-cooled Honeywell mainframe? I got to see it in development at the old GE plant in Phoenix back in the 70's. Interesting operator's console with bar-graph Nixie displays. The CPU itself was separate and was a hoot. The outer cabinet was pretty much a walk-in "shed" that held the floor-standing racks containing the PCBs with cooling interconnects made of what looked to be vinyl tubing. I was told that the big problem of the day was algae in the cooling lines and the engineers were checking out additives that would inhibit algae growth but tnot corrode the copper contact plates. The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" analogue meters were kind of neat too. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 1 11:23:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:23:09 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:28 AM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Ahoy the list.... > > Arty computers, eh? I've watched this thread with some care, > and I > have to say, considering the population of the list, that nobody has > mentioned the DEC computers so near and dear to many of your hearts. >> From the incredible PDP-1, with it's monitor that looked like the > scanner from a futuristic spaceship, the cockpit look of the > PDP-12, to > the incredible Oh-So-Seventies Op-Art look of much of the line, > with the > PDP-8 in Earthtone profusion, the Diabolic looking PDP-11/40, and the > ballsy PDP-11/70 with the outrageous red and purple color scheme, why > didn't I see even ONE reference to them? I am not a PDP man > myself, at > least not much. I only ended up actually working on a PDP-11/23 > (which > is one of the LEAST artistic of the line, BTW.) > > Come on... stand up for your machines! Ok, I'll bite. A PDP-11/23 in a short rack with a pair of RLs is an aesthetically beautiful machine, in my opinion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 1 11:26:13 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:26:13 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" > analogue meters were kind of neat too. > So just how does one construct such a meter? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 1 11:35:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:35:45 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:26 PM, woodelf wrote: >> The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" >> analogue meters were kind of neat too. > So just how does one construct such a meter? Have the logic generate a pulse at the beginning (or end) of each instruction cycle, buffer it, feed it into an integrator, and then into an analog meter. Easy as pie. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 11:35:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:35:31 -0700 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos Message-ID: Big, close-up photos of boards. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 11:40:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:40:23 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:26:13 -0700. <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <45C222B5.5060202 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" > > analogue meters were kind of neat too. > > > So just how does one construct such a meter? Every instruction fetch pumps a pulse into a capacitor? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Feb 1 11:44:38 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:44:38 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <677826.27335.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45C22706.90606@pacbell.net> Jay West wrote: > Al wrote... >> I have a HUGE softspot in my heart for the TRS-80 Model I, having >> purchased a 16k, Level I unit in December of 1978. A unit, I still own >> today, > That's the one system I don't have in my collection that I'd really like > to - a TRS-80 model I with tandy monitor and perhaps the expansion unit. > I never owned one, but a lot of my friends in the late 70's timeframe > did and we always fought about if my Apple ][+ was better than their > TRS80 :) > > Jay That must have been a short argument. I used both a lot in high school. The model I was unreliable in the extreme. The model III's were much better in that regard. Level I BASIC that was the low-end option of the Model I (and only option originally) was a slightly improved Palo Alto Tiny BASIC. Mechanically and esthetically, the Apple II case was vastly superior. For I/O, the Apple was vastly superior. For graphics, the Apple was vastly superior. Both had MS BASIC, which was a wash, but the various TRS-80 DOS's were much better than Apple's DOS (at least as of 3.3, which was the last version I used). Nevertheless, the Z80 is nearer and dearer to me than the 6502. I still have the source code for a couple of the asm programs that I wrote for the TRS-80. One was a fancy pong, the other was a symbolic differentiator I did as a calculus project. Mathematica is slightly ;-) more powerful, but mine came first. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Feb 1 11:47:36 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:47:36 -0600 Subject: Looking for a terminal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: I am looking for information on a terminal that I used back in the mid-late 70's to connect to hp2000 systems via phone line at the local public library. It had a keyboard unit with an acoustic coupler built into the top of it. There were 3 rocker switches on the top-right corner that allowed changes like full/half duplex etc. I think there were also a couple of lights on the top (maybe left side) that showed carrier connect status etc. This terminal was connected to a separate CRT monitor. We normally used it at 300 baud...I don't know if the terminal was capable of higher speeds. Does anyone have any ideas on what the name of this terminal might be? Any possible links to pictures? Any for sale? thanks much! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 11:44:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:44:56 -0700 Subject: craigslist roundup Message-ID: Sacramento: Wyse WY-100 terminal $10 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Feb 1 11:48:46 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:48:46 -0600 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45C227FE.3030907@pacbell.net> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" >> analogue meters were kind of neat too. > So just how does one construct such a meter? One way: pick off some signal that fires once per instruction execution -- say some signal that occurs in a particular decode phase of the logic. Buffer it and send it through a simple RC filter, which feeds the meter. Add a pot to scale things properly. The more instructions executed per second, the more pulses per second, the higher the average voltage put out by the filter. You might even be able to skip the RC filter since the meter has inertia. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 11:56:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:56:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C1F9AB.5090205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <809138.19448.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Oi and no one mentions the Mindset, the quintessential "arty" computer. After all it made it's way into an exhibit in the Metropolitan Museum of Art ;). Interesting internally? Not terribly save for the custom ic's that made it the Amiga b4 the Amiga...that demo of an eagle flapping it's wings apparently was produced on the Mindset. Let's be careful not to leave out some of the more utilitarian looking items. Some find beauty in that alone. After all, most applications of a computer aren't actually meant to be all artsy-fartsy. It's a tool after all, and a stout robust looking unit like the IBM PC/AT is an eye grabber in ways of it's own. We're just so used to looking at one... I meant to start a thread like this some time ago, but would have titled it something like "puters w/aesthetic appeal". I assumed it wouldn't go over so well :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 12:12:44 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:12:44 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Well, the TRS-80 Model 1 was the first commercially viable home computer. Whether it is interesting NPW or not is immaterial. It was the first! Yes there were others such as the North Star that were earlier but they were not mass marketed. Only the geeks knew of their existence. I bought my TRS-80 model 1 as soon as they were available in 1978. They came with a tape deck and 4K of memory. You could upgrade to 16K. I thought at the time, "Who needs any more than 4K?" Thats a lot of memory. Later they added a floppy drive that was less than 100K and I thought "wow, I will never fill up one of those $5 diskettes." Yep the diskettes were $5!!! Then I bought a 5 MBYTE Hard drive for $400 and by then I had upgraded to 32K memory. Wow I was in high cotton. You say nothing interesting? Hell it was the only game on the block for a while!!! I remember going into "The Book Stop" and asking where the books on computers and programming were. The reply was "Whats a computer?" There were no books on the subject yet!!! I tried to explain it to the sales person and they said I was making it up, that there were no such machines. On 2/1/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > (...or "artless" computers. TRS-80 model 1?) > > > >You know, for all I have a soft spot for the Model 1 (it was my first > >real computer), I am inclined to agree with you. There's nothing > >interesting about the design, neither electroically or mechanically. > >There's nothing particularly bad about it either (at least not compared > >to one of its contemporaries), but it's just not interesting... > > I dunno... Wasn't the Model 1 the first commercial microcomputer with > voice > recognition abilities? [1] > > I remember working (read: tinkering ;-) on a Model 1 in High school (as it > was abandoned by everyone once we'd gotten 6 shiny new Model 4 machines) > and it had a TRS-80 branded peripheral called the "Vox-Box." It had a > Citizens-Band microphone hooked into (I'm guessing) an A-D converter that > hooked onto the expansion buss. I actually got it "working" but noticed > that the recognition wasn't the best, and IIRC you got maybe 20 words max. > The included program let you "teach" the computer digits 0-9 & a few other > commands (Save/Load/etc.) > > This was in '83-'84 when I tinkered with it, dunno how old the "Vox-Box" > actually was, tho. > > Did anything exist (commercially) like that previously to the Model 1? > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > [1] Yes, I know it's almost a lie to call it that... but what the heck can > ya expect in 48K??? ;-) > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > _??_ zmerch at 30below.com > ((c)||(r)) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 1 12:20:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:20:39 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C227FE.3030907@pacbell.net> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> <45C227FE.3030907@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45C22F77.8000508@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Battle wrote: ----- >>> The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" >>> analogue meters were kind of neat too. > One way: pick off some signal that fires once per instruction execution > -- say some signal that occurs in a particular decode phase of the > logic. Buffer it and send it through a simple RC filter, which feeds > the meter. Add a pot to scale things properly. The more instructions > executed per second, the more pulses per second, the higher the average > voltage put out by the filter. You might even be able to skip the RC > filter since the meter has inertia. I wonder what the meter RED Lined at? Did it meter all instructions or just user tasks? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 12:22:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:22:20 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:56:24 -0800. <809138.19448.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <809138.19448.qm at web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Oi and no one mentions the Mindset, the quintessential > "arty" computer. After all it made it's way into an > exhibit in the Metropolitan Museum of Art ;). I hadn't heard this before, so I googled around. The case is not particularly interesting considering it got into a museum. It is slightly rounded, but I don't see what the big fuss is about in terms of its case. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 12:23:29 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:23:29 -0700 Subject: Looking for a terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:47:36 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Bob Brown writes: > I am looking for information on a terminal that I used back in the > mid-late 70's to connect to hp2000 systems via phone line at the > local public library. > > It had a keyboard unit with an acoustic coupler built into the top of > it. There were 3 rocker switches on the top-right corner that > allowed changes like full/half duplex etc. > > I think there were also a couple of lights on the top (maybe left > side) that showed carrier connect status etc. What color was it? Beige? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 1 12:35:27 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:35:27 -0800 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> My 11/70: http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html Richard wrote: > Big, close-up photos of boards. > > -- TTFN - Guy From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Feb 1 12:41:00 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:41:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <677826.27335.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jay West wrote: > That's the one system I don't have in my collection that I'd really like to - > a TRS-80 model I with tandy monitor and perhaps the expansion unit. I never > owned one, but a lot of my friends in the late 70's timeframe did and we > always fought about if my Apple ][+ was better than their TRS80 :) At the time the Model I came out, there was no way I could afford one. I did spend a lot of time at the local Radio Shack, programming theirs to play music. My first micro was a Model III, with 16KB RAM and cassette storage. I've been slowly piecing together a Model I system, and now have a Level II 16KB system unit and Tandy monitor, and just picked up a 32KB Expansion Interface and all 4 floppy drives. I'm anxious to check out the EI and drives. My Tandy page is here: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Tandy/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 12:44:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:44:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <458578.59015.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > Oi and no one mentions the Mindset, the > quintessential > > "arty" computer. After all it made it's way into > an > > exhibit in the Metropolitan Museum of Art ;). > > I hadn't heard this before, so I googled around. > The case is not > particularly interesting considering it got into a > museum. It is > slightly rounded, but I don't see what the big fuss > is about in terms > of its case. Consider the time frame. Also take into consideration the entire package, including the packaging. Very artsy fartsy I must say. There wasn't much else in the period aimed to be stylish (until the Macs I guess, or the Lisa). We've seen lots of crazy different stuff since then, so I guess it's appeal can pale by comparison to say an Indigo 2 :O. Most of these things are just boxes regardless. A designer doesn't have as much room for creativity as say the case w/an automobile. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 1 12:44:20 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:44:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > My 11/70: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html Someday I'll have an 11/70. I think that one is the prettiest of the line. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 12:49:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:49:26 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com>, Message-ID: <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 12:12, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Well, the TRS-80 Model 1 was the first commercially viable home > computer. Whether it is interesting NPW or not is immaterial. It was > the first! So the Applie II (went on sale in June 1977, as opposed to the TRS-80 Model I going on sale in August) was an impractical commercial flop? How about the Commodore Pet--demoed in 1976? Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 12:50:44 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:50:44 -0500 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: A really nice 11/70... I always thought the DS570 was the best 11/70 from a looks standpoint outside the 11/74 BA11-CM they used to replace the 11/70 in Princeton's DEC office in 1984... The corporate cabs just looked nice and they didn't have the problems of the broken black and white cabinet plastic panels falling off. Bill On 2/1/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > My 11/70: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html > > > Richard wrote: > > Big, close-up photos of boards. > > > > > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Feb 1 12:51:21 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:51:21 -0500 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7BCD5B06-BB41-44EC-8FFC-35D12F1DAA42@colourfull.com> NIce pictures. Beautiful system. I'm jealous. I hope to have DG Equipment hooked up and running soon. Rob On Feb 1, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > My 11/70: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html > > > Richard wrote: >> Big, close-up photos of boards. >> >> > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From grant at stockly.com Thu Feb 1 12:52:23 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:52:23 -0900 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C22706.90606@pacbell.net> References: <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> <677826.27335.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070201095034.042a5008@pop.1and1.com> >Nevertheless, the Z80 is nearer and dearer to me than the 6502. The Apple II would have used the Z80, a "real processor" as Woz put it...but they could only afford the 6502. : ) If anyone wants a copy of the byte article from 1975 where the Steves write byte for advice on their single board computer (Apple 1) shoot me an e-mail... Grant From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 12:53:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:53:12 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C22F77.8000508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <45C227FE.3030907@pacbell.net>, <45C22F77.8000508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45C1C698.22719.43CEEBB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 11:20, woodelf wrote: > I wonder what the meter RED Lined at? Did it meter all instructions > or just user tasks? That I didn't think to ask. I suspect that user-mode tasks only were monitored for the meter to make much sense. So you'd "AND" the user- mode bit with the RNI status before sending it to an integrator. I don't recall--was this on the GE 635 or a different system? Cheers, Chuck From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Feb 1 12:56:26 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:56:26 -0600 Subject: Looking for a terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes...beige. With, in my opinion, a keyboard with a very nice feel to it. -Bob >In article , > Bob Brown writes: > >> I am looking for information on a terminal that I used back in the >> mid-late 70's to connect to hp2000 systems via phone line at the >> local public library. >> >> It had a keyboard unit with an acoustic coupler built into the top of >> it. There were 3 rocker switches on the top-right corner that >> allowed changes like full/half duplex etc. >> >> I think there were also a couple of lights on the top (maybe left >> side) that showed carrier connect status etc. > >What color was it? Beige? :-) >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 1 13:03:18 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:03:18 +0000 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/2/07 17:23, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> Come on... stand up for your machines! > > Ok, I'll bite. A PDP-11/23 in a short rack with a pair of RLs is > an aesthetically beautiful machine, in my opinion. Same here, until you try to bodily shift one down a flight of stairs :) I didn't mention the DEC stuff because I just assumed it was a given! Heh.... I've still got to scan some of the DEC product pictures I've got, a DECsystem, PDP 11 (in that very rack IIRC) and VAX 11/780. All in cheesy 70s-o-vision. Marvellous. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 1 13:06:47 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:06:47 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Unix? Message-ID: <45C23A47.2040504@bitsavers.org> > I have the Z-80 Cromix running on one of my System-3's, and yes > I have install disk images up on my site. I got to meet the original author a few weeks ago. It started out as a personal project of his, and morphed into a product. From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 1 13:16:46 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:16:46 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <200702011055.l11AttIe031924@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <45C0F577.13302.10C0EDA@cclist.sydex.com> <200702011055.l11AttIe031924@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1170357406.32369.31.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 05:56 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I have the Z-80 Cromix running on one of my System-3's, and yes > I have install disk images up on my site. Is there any reason of which you are aware that would prevent the use of Cromix on a Z-2? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 12:52:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:52:08 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:44:08 -0800. <458578.59015.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <458578.59015.qm at web61024.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Consider the time frame. Also take into consideration > the entire package, including the packaging. Very > artsy fartsy I must say. There wasn't much else in the > period aimed to be stylish (until the Macs I guess, or > the Lisa). I think the TS-802 is a lot more stylish than that rounded box. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 13:21:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 11:21:57 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <45C1CD55.25916.45743E8@cclist.sydex.com> I seem to remember a wood-cased brass-nameplate Z80 based system out of Berkeley called the "People's Computer". Anyone have one of these beasts? Cheers, Chuck From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 13:35:20 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:35:20 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at the numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment and drawing pictures (which it excelled at) while the TRS-80 was a scientific machine that crunched numbers. Yes, today the tables are reversed, but back then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. The Apple was just not that. The Commodore didnt make it because it was under powered and again was marketed toward using it for games not serious work. I still have several of all three and at the time I would use my TRS-80 whenever I was programming. The others were FUN machines made for children while the TRS-80 was capable of programming in BASIC, FORTRAN, NLOS, FORTH and Assembly to name only the languages that I had enabled on my machine. AND the DOS in the TRS-80 was miles ahead of the others and was accessible. When IBM came out with their machine I wished they had licensed TRS-DOS and then developed that instead of starting with their own. Yes IBMs DOS went on to outstrip TRS-DOS, but just think how much faster the development would have been if they had started with the solid base that TRS-DOS had set down. Today I use Linux...an offshoot of the Apple....which is far superior to Windows and their "pretend" DOS. But it wasn't back then. We have to look at the market and environment of the late 70s when we start comparing systems. Today the market is different and the systems are different. We cant compare apples to oranges. On 2/1/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Feb 2007 at 12:12, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > Well, the TRS-80 Model 1 was the first commercially viable home > > computer. Whether it is interesting NPW or not is immaterial. It was > > the first! > > So the Applie II (went on sale in June 1977, as opposed to the TRS-80 > Model I going on sale in August) was an impractical commercial flop? > How about the Commodore Pet--demoed in 1976? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 1 13:00:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:00:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP tape drive PCBs In-Reply-To: <45C0E86F.27628.D92635@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 31, 7 07:05:19 pm Message-ID: > > I note that HP is now recycling its model numbers (I suppose that > there weren't enough numbers and letters left). The HP 7970 is also > the model number of a Pavillion desktop PeeCee. A feww years ago I was saddened to learn than an HP9100C was some kind of printer/scanner thingy, and nothing to do with the 9100A/9100B calculators (which as I've said before are the most elegant pieces of electronicvs I've ever had the pleasure to work on). THinking about it there were _5_ calculaotrs all claiming to be a model 10... HP9810 (aka Model 10 calculator) -- a 3 level stack RPN desktop machine HP10 (aka HP10A) -- a printing adding machine HP10C -- simple scientific programmable in the 'Voyager' sereis HP10B -- Algebraic-notation bussiness calculator HP10B-II -- improved version of the last. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 1 12:54:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:54:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VS60's In-Reply-To: from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 31, 7 08:56:28 pm Message-ID: > [Gamma-11] > Wonder it it was a Siemens box... They had similar scanners with RT11 I really can't remmmber, it was over 10 years ago that I worked on this machine. I am pretty sure all the PCBs in the Unibus/Qbus slots were made by DEC, even the interfaces to the imaging 'camera'. Who made the 'front end' I don't know. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 1 12:56:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:56:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 31, 7 07:38:25 pm Message-ID: > We all went down to the Radio Shack to check out the Model I. The > case felt like *very* cheap plastic, even for RS standards. The I've felt worse (Sinclair, anyone :-)) > keyboard was clunky and while not as bad as the chiclet keyboard on > the PET, it still wasn't something I wanted to type on. The lack of It's odd... I've heard that comment several times before, but the keyboard mechanism is the same as the one used in the DEC VT100, HP85 (and 86, 87), HP262x terminals, HP9816, and so on. Maybe it's just how Radio Shack mounted it or something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 1 13:34:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:34:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Feb 1, 7 11:00:20 am Message-ID: > was abandoned by everyone once we'd gotten 6 shiny new Model 4 machines)=20 > and it had a TRS-80 branded peripheral called the "Vox-Box." It had a=20 > Citizens-Band microphone hooked into (I'm guessing) an A-D converter that= It was a bit simpler than that. There's the service manual on one of the TRS-80 sites, and IIRC it's something like a differentiator followed by a single-bit iuput. Interetingly, I was given a couple of 'voice' input cards for the Apple ][ a few years ago and one of them has almost idenctical circuitry to the VOXbox (other than the host interfce of course). I assume said card and the VOXbox came from the same company originally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 1 13:47:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:47:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C22706.90606@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Feb 1, 7 11:44:38 am Message-ID: > > Jay West wrote: > > Al wrote... > >> I have a HUGE softspot in my heart for the TRS-80 Model I, having > >> purchased a 16k, Level I unit in December of 1978. A unit, I still own > >> today, > > That's the one system I don't have in my collection that I'd really like > > to - a TRS-80 model I with tandy monitor and perhaps the expansion unit. > > I never owned one, but a lot of my friends in the late 70's timeframe > > did and we always fought about if my Apple ][+ was better than their > > TRS80 :) > > > > Jay > > That must have been a short argument. I used both a lot in high school. > The model I was unreliable in the extreme. The model III's were much > better in that regard. And for the counter-argument, I have a model 1 that I've had from new, and which has never failed me. COnversely I had nothing but trouble with the Apple ][, a design which i feel is marginal at best! I had one failure on my Model 3, the disk cotnroller chip failed in an odd way. It sometimes failed to geenrate a Data Request signal, with the result that a new byte would not be loaded by the processor, instead the disk cotnroller wrote the previous byte again. You got text files with repeated cheracters in them.. And my Model 4 has blown 1 tantalum capacitor in its life. It carried on working as the smokke came out, of course. -tony From pechter at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 13:54:44 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:54:44 -0500 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Actually, my favorite three DEC boxes are the 11/70, the 8650 Vax and the Minc. Wierd mix... but they're pretty much representative of a lot of the stuff from Real Time through timesharing. Bill On 2/1/07, David Griffith wrote: > > On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > My 11/70: > > > > http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html > > Someday I'll have an 11/70. I think that one is the prettiest of the > line. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 14:02:25 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:02:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <295173.40483.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article > <458578.59015.qm at web61024.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > Consider the time frame. Also take into > consideration > > the entire package, including the packaging. Very > > artsy fartsy I must say. There wasn't much else in > the > > period aimed to be stylish (until the Macs I > guess, or > > the Lisa). > > I think the TS-802 is a lot more stylish than that > rounded box. It's all a matter of opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Does the TS-802 have appeal...you're not going to find me saying no, but more stylish then a Mindset? IMHO no. And keep in mind that attractiveness to a collector is based on a number of different factors. Does one have fond memories of a particular unit for one. Honestly, and believe me I'm not running it's appearance down, the TS-802 would look right at home on the set of Star Trek. While the Mindset, at a time when systems needed to be modular in order to sell, did the best with that type of arrangement. And before I looked it up, I thought you may have been referring to the TS-803/1603. I laughed, and said no way (and I'd LOVE to own either of those also). One of those would seem right at home in the cantina on Star Wars w/the monitor grafted onto the side! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Feb 1 14:04:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:04:25 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <1170357406.32369.31.camel@linux.site> References: <200702011055.l11AttIe031924@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200702012007.l11K7t8H005827@mail1.magma.ca> > > I have the Z-80 Cromix running on one of my System-3's, and yes > > I have install disk images up on my site. > > > Is there any reason of which you are aware that would prevent the > use of Cromix on a Z-2? I don't see why - All it needs (at least the Z80 version) is the ZPU, enough memory (a 256KZ works nicely, or a few 64KZs I think are OK as well) and I/O card and disk controller like 16FDC (those are the cards that I have) - all the standard Cromemco cards would work in a Z2 (I think I've had them all in my Z2 at one point or another, although I don't recall if I've ever booted Cromix up on it). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From pechter at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 14:10:57 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: VS60's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the common connectivity on this stuff was through DR11/DRV11's... Been a long time since these days... Sure liked RT11 in control more than WniXP, though. Bill On 2/1/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > [Gamma-11] > > > Wonder it it was a Siemens box... They had similar scanners with RT11 > > I really can't remmmber, it was over 10 years ago that I worked on this > machine. > > I am pretty sure all the PCBs in the Unibus/Qbus slots were made by DEC, > even the interfaces to the imaging 'camera'. Who made the 'front end' I > don't know. > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 14:19:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:19:25 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at the > numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment and > drawing pictures (which it excelled at) while the TRS-80 was a scientific > machine that crunched numbers. Hmm... my recollection of the times was that the TRS-80 was pitched more as a home/business computer, not scientific. Certainly until the CP/M card for the Apple II came out, it was primarily an entertainment computer, but at a place I worked at in 1984, the boss used his Apple more in CP/M than AppleDOS - for spreadsheets, especially. > Yes, today the tables are reversed, but back > then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since > 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. > The Apple was just not that. The Commodore didnt make it because it was > under powered and again was marketed toward using it for games not serious > work. While the 4K/8K original PET with the 40 col screen and chicklet keys had a ways to go until it could be taken seriously outside of the home/entertainment market, it had one thing that no other mass market computer had at the time - an IEEE-488 (GPIB) bus. I have seen plenty of PETs used in laboratory settings to talk to DVMs, pH meters, oscilloscopes, etc., all with the built-in IEEE port. It might not have been a great machine for number crunching, but for a wee while, it was a great machine for data collection. The all-in-one construction was also a benefit in the classroom as well as the laboratory - sturdy, easy to move, trivial to install ("plug into wall, flip switch"). Without dragging this into a 40col vs 64 col vs 80col or 1MHz 6502 vs 4MHz Z80 debate, the PET had its place in history. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 14:20:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:20:05 -0700 Subject: Looking for a terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:56:26 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Bob Brown writes: > Yes...beige. > > With, in my opinion, a keyboard with a very nice feel to it. Oddly enough, perhaps browsing an old TERMCAP (or terminfo) database would jog the memory cells on the manufacturer. There is quite a bit of terminal information in the comments of those files. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 14:25:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:25:54 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:02:25 -0800. <295173.40483.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oops, yes I meant the TS-803, not the TS-802, although the 802 is kinda stylish too. The 803 has that funky pedestal thing going on. Maybe I just like it because its weird! (Well, also because it has graphics, but I was just thinking of the case here.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 14:34:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:34:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: groovy book on eBay - Interfacing to the IBM Personal Computer Message-ID: <264692.27385.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Interfacing-to-the-IBM-PC-L-C-Eggebrecht-1983-Exc_W0QQitem Z200074563841QQihZ010QQcategoryZ378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 14:35:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:35:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canadian Peecee on eBay - very artsy ;) Message-ID: <20070201203515.70169.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/8088-Best-Performer-88-10-1980s-PC-with-Keyboard_W0QQitem Z330083298764QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 14:44:49 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <120484.31233.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > Maybe I just like it because its weird! Perfectly legitimate reason to like something's appearance. I just remember seeing one in a showroom and saying that's just way to funky lookin to spend ~$2000 on (TS-1603). Looking at it on old-computers.com just doesn't seem to have the same effect though. Wish I had one now though sniff ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 1 14:49:17 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:49:17 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com><45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <012e01c74642$73586ff0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... >> The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at >> the >> numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment >> and >> drawing pictures (which it excelled at) Uh, most definitely not. The C64 and Apple were both fantastically successful. > while the TRS-80 was a scientific machine that crunched numbers. I disagree. The TRS-80 was originally sold and marketed as a home system - certainly not a number cruncher. They sold it with game tapes & home recipe tapes after all. It wasn't until later models that Tandy started representing it as a business machine. >> Yes, today the tables are reversed, but back >> then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since >> 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. >> The Apple was just not that. The Commodore didnt make it because it was >> under powered and again was marketed toward using it for games not >> serious >> work. You may have been looking for a microcomputer for serious work back then, but 99.9% of the market was not. They were looking for a home system. Otherwise, all of the early systems would have been a commercial flop. Retail sales to home users is what made the market grow initially IMHO. Jay From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 15:04:18 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:04:18 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Yes, the Pet and the Apple along with the TRS-80 were the first. Each had an advantage and a place. Without any one of them the PC might not be today what it is. The TRS-80 seemed to have the biggest following of "Hackers" (hackers were something else back in those days. It meant someone who hacked a printed circuit board to add a trace or remove one) who were always finding ways to speed up the CPU, add interfaces, add functions, or improve in some way on the circuit that Tandy provided. Many of these "hacks" were added by Tandy in their following models. My point was that while the TRS-80 might not be "interesting" today. It was very interesting in its day because it worked and was modifiable. As to the failure rate, Just about all, if not all, of the reliability problems were fixable with a #2 pencil with an eraser. All that was required was to pull apart any connection made by an edge card and "erase" the grunge off of it. It has always amazed me that even though the contacts were gold plated they still required cleaning with an eraser about every two months. I doubt there are many people today who would try "hacking" a PC motherboard. Takes too much knowledge in order to keep from really screwing up something in the process and three level boards are really hard to hack. My TRS-80 had every hack published at the time. My Commodore 2001 had dozens of hacks. And there were third party providers that sold "kits" for various hacks and PC Board additions. Yes, those were "interesting" times. On 2/1/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 2/1/07, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at > the > > numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment > and > > drawing pictures (which it excelled at) while the TRS-80 was a > scientific > > machine that crunched numbers. > > Hmm... my recollection of the times was that the TRS-80 was pitched > more as a home/business computer, not scientific. > > Certainly until the CP/M card for the Apple II came out, it was > primarily an entertainment computer, but at a place I worked at in > 1984, the boss used his Apple more in CP/M than AppleDOS - for > spreadsheets, especially. > > > Yes, today the tables are reversed, but back > > then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since > > 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. > > The Apple was just not that. The Commodore didnt make it because it was > > under powered and again was marketed toward using it for games not > serious > > work. > > While the 4K/8K original PET with the 40 col screen and chicklet keys > had a ways to go until it could be taken seriously outside of the > home/entertainment market, it had one thing that no other mass market > computer had at the time - an IEEE-488 (GPIB) bus. I have seen plenty > of PETs used in laboratory settings to talk to DVMs, pH meters, > oscilloscopes, etc., all with the built-in IEEE port. It might not > have been a great machine for number crunching, but for a wee while, > it was a great machine for data collection. The all-in-one > construction was also a benefit in the classroom as well as the > laboratory - sturdy, easy to move, trivial to install ("plug into > wall, flip switch"). Without dragging this into a 40col vs 64 col vs > 80col or 1MHz 6502 vs 4MHz Z80 debate, the PET had its place in > history. > > -ethan > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Feb 1 15:07:36 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:07:36 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYatesCenter, KS) In-Reply-To: <012e01c74642$73586ff0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote... > >> The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. > >> Just look at the numbers. The apple was a flop because it > >> was marketed as entertainment and drawing pictures (which > >> it excelled at) > Uh, most definitely not. The C64 and Apple were both fantastically > successful. > > > while the TRS-80 was a scientific machine that crunched numbers. > > I disagree. The TRS-80 was originally sold and marketed as a home > system - certainly not a number cruncher. They sold it with game > tapes & home recipe tapes after all. It wasn't until later models > that Tandy started representing it as a business machine. Queue "Dancing Demon"! A couple of my high school friends had Model 1s. The father of one of them thought that "Dancing Demon" was the best thing he had ever seen on a computer. He regularly requested performances. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.18/662 - Release Date: 1/31/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 14:59:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:59:52 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:44:49 -0800. <120484.31233.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <120484.31233.qm at web61015.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > > Maybe I just like it because its weird! > > Perfectly legitimate reason to like something's > appearance. I just remember seeing one in a showroom > and saying that's just way to funky lookin to spend > ~$2000 on (TS-1603). Looking at it on > old-computers.com just doesn't seem to have the same > effect though. Wish I had one now though sniff ... I picked mine up on ebay (and there was another one on there after that), so they aren't too uncommon. I got it because it was one of the few CP/M machines that shipped with graphics. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 1 15:16:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20070201131215.V51016@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I dunno... Wasn't the Model 1 the first commercial microcomputer with voice > recognition abilities? [1] > . . . > This was in '83-'84 when I tinkered with it, dunno how old the "Vox-Box" > actually was, tho. poor. barely adequate to recognize "Let ther be light" (to operate an x10) Many people never realized that there was an expansion port card edge in it, so that you could daisy chain additional devices (votrax, etc.) > Did anything exist (commercially) like that previously to the Model 1? YES. At the time, there were a lot of magazine ads for an S100? based voice recognition unit. And, at Computer Faire #3 (LA), there was demo of a software intensive voice recognition unit for Apple ][ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 1 15:23:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> > > The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" > > analogue meters were kind of neat too. On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, woodelf wrote: > So just how does one construct such a meter? Howzbout the same way that after-market ATs measured their speed for the front panel digital display? (Jumpers to set two numbers, and "turbo" line to switch between them) From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 15:24:24 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:24:24 -0800 Subject: Are there M4 9914 9-track tape driver users on the list? In-Reply-To: <45C03BFE.7070504@Rikers.org> References: <1e1fc3e90701091142u4581b231y24d2b032b7d15edd@mail.gmail.com> <008901c7342f$4f1a7630$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1e1fc3e90701091403x2f7a7424l9c649145e5b8ecb6@mail.gmail.com> <45C03BFE.7070504@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702011324m48ff8b0eu39f033db70625ded@mail.gmail.com> On 1/30/07, Tim Riker wrote: > I've got a Cipher M990 Pertec drive I'll trade for one of your 9914 > drives. :) I'll include the 16 bit ISA ATC-16 Pertec controller card too. > It looks like I'll be acquiring a Fujitsu 9-track drive along with a PC based controller card and the whole PC so I'm probably set with PC interfaced 9-track drives. Now I just need to get one working with a q-bus controller, either SCSI or Pertec. For now I should keep the 9914 that is working, and the other one currently isn't working. It won't successfully mount a tape. Shipping these things is pretty expensive too. I think it was somewhere around $100 when I had one of them shipped to me. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 15:36:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:36:30 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45C1ECDE.2181.4D2714C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 13:35, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at the > numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment and > drawing pictures (which it excelled at) while the TRS-80 was a scientific > machine that crunched numbers. Yes, today the tables are reversed, but back > then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since > 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. Golly, I hope you've got your tongue firmly planted in your cheek here! In 1960, if you were looking for serious computing power for number crunching, you got a 7090 and ran FMS. The 7070 was strictly for the BDP crowd. You can't have it both ways--if you were serious about computing power, there were more powerful S-100 and Multibus boxes --with more expandability and peripheral choice--and just about any language choice that you could imagine. . No--you said "personal computer". The Apple II was just that--and enormously successful as such. One thing that it accomplished was that it established Apple in the educational field. I think that had Apple not had its educational discount program, it wouldn't be around today. (I've never owned an Apple II of any flavor) Cheers, Chuck From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Feb 1 15:41:40 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:41:40 -0800 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: I haven't seen a real one either, but sure appreciate Phil and Doug's work on the simulator. At 2:42 PM -0500 1/31/07, Phil Budne wrote: >John (Dundas) went on to build do PDP-11 front pannel blinklights und >switches for SIMH, looks like it's available at: > >http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html > >Which says it includes Doug's and my work (in V0.9 or later). 'Tis true. I'm not much of a computer gamer but I do enjoy playing the occasional game of Lunar Lander on my Mac. John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 1 15:57:14 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:57:14 -0700 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <45C2623A.9000901@jetnet.ab.ca> John A. Dundas III wrote: > 'Tis true. I'm not much of a computer gamer but I do enjoy playing the > occasional game of Lunar Lander on my Mac. That game brings back old memories ... What can you run under 4 Meg... err 4 K of basic. From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 15:58:38 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:58:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple ][ vs.TRS-80 Message-ID: <572065.15867.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> In the late 70's and early 80's I think the TRS-80 outsold the Apple II's. Mainly because there were more outlets selling TRS-80's (Radio Shack and Tandy Stores) than there were selling Apple II Computers. But, I can say as a former New Yorker, and a Computer Consultant at that time, that I saw MANY more Apple II's running VisiCalc than I did TRS-80's. The Apple II overtook the TRS-80 and by 1984 or so, the Model I/III/IV was pretty well dead and dying as a platform, while the Apple IIe and IIgs had plenty of life left in them. I loved my TRS-80, but I also lusted after an Apple IIe chock full of Applied Engineering goodies... I never did get one of those, though I have several IIgs machines and a IIc. Al Phila, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 1 16:13:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:13:40 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <20070201131215.V51016@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <20070201131215.V51016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3F945FBF-8280-4403-8822-10E3A72A1C93@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > And, at Computer Faire #3 (LA), there was demo of a software intensive > voice recognition unit for Apple ][ I have a very dusty memory of a friend having had one of those. He ran it in his Franklin Ace 1000. It seemed to work at least reasonably well. This would've been around 1984 or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pechter at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 16:20:02 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:20:02 -0500 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: My God! I just looked at the PDP11 console on the OSX SimH. It's beautiful. I use the PDP8 Xwindows emulator by Doug Jones... but I've always felt the PDP11 needed something similar. I wish I could code enough to do the full front panel in software for SimH. Nice work. Just wish I had a Mac newer than the 68030 in the IIfx downstairs. Bill On 2/1/07, John A. Dundas III wrote: > > I haven't seen a real one either, but sure appreciate Phil and Doug's > work on the simulator. > > At 2:42 PM -0500 1/31/07, Phil Budne wrote: > >John (Dundas) went on to build do PDP-11 front pannel blinklights und > >switches for SIMH, looks like it's available at: > > > >http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html > > > >Which says it includes Doug's and my work (in V0.9 or later). > > 'Tis true. I'm not much of a computer gamer but I do enjoy playing > the occasional game of Lunar Lander on my Mac. > > John > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 16:20:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:20:51 -0800 Subject: Apple ][ vs.TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <572065.15867.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <572065.15867.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C1F743.20493.4FB0C85@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 13:58, Al Hartman wrote: > In the late 70's and early 80's I think the TRS-80 outsold the Apple > II's. Mainly because there were more outlets selling TRS-80's (Radio > Shack and Tandy Stores) than there were selling Apple II Computers. Probably was a regional thing. In the SF Bay Area, it was hard to see past the forest of Apples. I know that Tandy opened a computer- only retail outlet in the area, but, like the Sears and TI computer retail outlets, it didn't last long. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 1 16:28:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:28:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com>, <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070201142625.E57229@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So the Applie II (went on sale in June 1977, as opposed to the TRS-80 > Model I going on sale in August) was an impractical commercial flop? > How about the Commodore Pet--demoed in 1976? All of those three were announced and demo'd before any of the three was readily available. I ended up with TRS80, because that was available first of the three in my neighborhood. I don't percieve it as an AG Bell/Elisha Gray race. (although THAT would make a great Fedex commercial "If Elisha Gray had used Fedex, then . . . ") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Feb 1 16:30:12 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:30:12 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Unix? Message-ID: <01C74627.0442BD20@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message: Message: 28 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:04:25 -0500 From: dave06a at dunfield.com Subject: Re: Cromemco Unix? >> Is there any reason of which you are aware that would prevent the >> use of Cromix on a Z-2? >I don't see why - All it needs (at least the Z80 version) is the ZPU, >enough memory (a 256KZ works nicely, or a few 64KZs I think are >OK as well) and I/O card and disk controller like 16FDC (those are >the cards that I have) - all the standard Cromemco cards would >work in a Z2 (I think I've had them all in my Z2 at one point or another, >although I don't recall if I've ever booted Cromix up on it). >Dave ------------Reply: Since they were S-100 systems and could have pretty well any cards installed, functionally the model doesn't really mean much except for the floppy size and the number of floppy drives, I/O connectors and card slots. You might have some problems with older boards. Minimum revision levels: ZPU: Any 64KZ: Rev J TU-ART:Rev E PRI: Rev E 4FDC: Rev C 16FDC: Rev E IOP: Rev C Quadart:Rev C 128K is the minimum for one user. Each additional user requires an additional 64K with a maximum of 6 users (although you could have >64 ports if you can find room for the I/O cards and connectors). Hard disk recommended for any *real* use. AFAIK Cromix came in 3 versions with numerous revisions: 11 series is for the Z80; AFAIK latest revision was 11.27 20 series is for the 68000 (slooow, use 30 if possible) 30 series (later changed to 1xx, i.e. 153=30.53) is for 68010 and higher, although at least the early versions will also run on the 68000. Note that with some exceptions and depending on the hardware, 20 and 30 series will still run Z80 programs. Also note that the 30 series has provisions to read & write PC & UNIX format diskettes. And of course the languages (BASIC, COBOL, Fortran etc.) were also updated for the newer CPUs. mike From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 16:35:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:35:48 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYatesCenter, KS) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:07:36 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > Queue "Dancing Demon"! For those other people who said "WTF?" when they read this: Don't ask me why, but the software box "demon" looks like Elmer Fudd to me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 16:32:26 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:32:26 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:04:18 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" writes: > My point was that while the TRS-80 might not be "interesting" today. It was > very interesting in its day because it worked and was modifiable. [...] I don't recall finding it very interesting in its day. I also don't recall anyone I knew finding it interesting. But hey, lots of people obviously found it interesting and/or useful because they sold lots of them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 16:33:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:33:44 -0700 Subject: Are there M4 9914 9-track tape driver users on the list? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:24:24 -0800. <1e1fc3e90702011324m48ff8b0eu39f033db70625ded@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90702011324m48ff8b0eu39f033db70625ded at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" writes: > It looks like I'll be acquiring a Fujitsu 9-track drive along with a > PC based controller card and the whole PC so I'm probably set with PC > interfaced 9-track drives. Now I just need to get one working with a > q-bus controller, either SCSI or Pertec. Are you buying that one on ebay? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Thu Feb 1 16:47:32 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:47:32 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <3F945FBF-8280-4403-8822-10E3A72A1C93@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <20070201131215.V51016@shell.lmi.net> <3F945FBF-8280-4403-8822-10E3A72A1C93@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C26E04.10802@jbrain.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> And, at Computer Faire #3 (LA), there was demo of a software intensive >> voice recognition unit for Apple ][ > > I have a very dusty memory of a friend having had one of those. He > ran it in his Franklin Ace 1000. It seemed to work at least > reasonably well. This would've been around 1984 or so. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), maybe it was ported to the II Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Feb 1 16:59:12 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:59:12 -0800 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: At 5:20 PM -0500 2/1/07, Bill Pechter wrote: >Nice work. Thanks, appreciate the comment. >Just wish I had a Mac newer than the 68030 in the IIfx downstairs. Yeah, that just won't work for this program :-) Although... I do still have an fx in the garage; maybe I should resurrect my original simh port? No, when I moved to Carbon, I ditched the old Mac OS code for good. Sorry. John From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 17:05:30 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:05:30 -0600 Subject: Apple ][ vs.TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <45C1F743.20493.4FB0C85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <572065.15867.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <45C1F743.20493.4FB0C85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920702011505k4837b260s8675df7456d28695@mail.gmail.com> > On 1 Feb 2007 at 13:58, Al Hartman wrote: > > > In the late 70's and early 80's I think the TRS-80 outsold the Apple > > II's. Mainly because there were more outlets selling TRS-80's (Radio > > Shack and Tandy Stores) than there were selling Apple II Computers. By the mid 80s in the midwest, all the schools in my area had Apple IIs, all the kids had Commodore 64s or TI 99s, and if their parents still had it, the odd TRS-80. Tandy did good business in my area in the mid-80s though (My parents bought at least three Tandy 1000-series machines in the 80s, for themselves and for their business). I still remember peeking into the glass case and eyeing the TRS-80 Model 100 (which was at eye level, showing my age :D) in 1983, and telling my dad I wanted it. :) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 1 17:10:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:10:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C26E04.10802@jbrain.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <20070201131215.V51016@shell.lmi.net> <3F945FBF-8280-4403-8822-10E3A72A1C93@neurotica.com> <45C26E04.10802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20070201150840.F57229@shell.lmi.net> > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> And, at Computer Faire #3 (LA), there was demo of a software intensive > >> voice recognition unit for Apple ][ On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Jim Brain wrote: > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), maybe it was > ported to the II The one that I referred to (1979?) was LONG before the C64 (or even Vic-20) existed. I never saw a Pet version. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 1 17:14:42 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:14:42 +0000 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/2/07 22:59, "John A. Dundas III" wrote: > Although... I do still have an fx in the garage; maybe I should > resurrect my original simh port? No, when I moved to Carbon, I > ditched the old Mac OS code for good. Sorry. Hi John, Dundas-mac is timing out for me here in the uk, is it a US office hours type machine? Thanks, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 17:18:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:18:32 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Howzbout the same way that after-market ATs measured their speed for the > front panel digital display? (Jumpers to set two numbers, and "turbo" > line to switch between them) The nerds would then hack these to say 99 MHz. The ubernerds would hack them to say 1111 MHz. -- Will From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 1 15:05:32 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:05:32 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 13:35 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at the > numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment and > drawing pictures (which it excelled at) while the TRS-80 was a scientific > machine that crunched numbers. Yes, today the tables are reversed, but back > then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since > 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. > The Apple was just not that. The Commodore didnt make it because it was > under powered and again was marketed toward using it for games not serious > work. Both the Apple and Commodore were hardly flops. They did what they were designed to do, and made a bunch of money for their respective owners. I'm not sure I understand how you are defining "success" and "flop" here. The Apple, additionally, had the exciting market-making feature of an open bus, allowing others to make products for the machine. This was later adopted by IBM. > I still have several of all three and at the time I would use my > TRS-80 whenever I was programming. The others were FUN machines made for > children while the TRS-80 was capable of programming in BASIC, FORTRAN, > NLOS, FORTH and Assembly to name only the languages that I had enabled on > my machine. "Enabled?" Uh, it APPEARS that you don't understand the concept. Languages are LOADED on a machine, they're not there waiting to be "enabled" and then used -- other than the BASIC in ROM on several machines, the IBM included. Any language could be implemented on either the Apple or the Commodore, and a wide variety WERE implemented -- I'll leave it to the outraged fans of both camps to provide a detailed list... > AND the DOS in the TRS-80 was miles ahead of the others and was > accessible. When IBM came out with their machine I wished they had licensed > TRS-DOS and then developed that instead of starting with their own. Yes > IBMs DOS went on to outstrip TRS-DOS, but just think how much faster the > development would have been if they had started with the solid base that > TRS-DOS had set down. IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, which was essentially stillborn. And, since MS-DOS was simply an XLATed hot copy of CP/M-80 with a couple of changes, IBM computers essentially ran by the grace of CP/M, one way or the other. While TRS-DOS wasn't actively bad, it was highly clumsy, and did odd things for some speed which tied it to specific hardware altogether too tightly, such as sticking the directory of a diskette in the middle tracks of the diskette. That kind of kludge doesn't translate well to a move to hard drives, and other large media. TRS-DOS also took advantage of hardware specifics of the TRS line of computers, as I understand it, which would have made it more difficult to port to other-company machines. Of course, had the goal been to have TRS-DOS succeed, rather than the TRS-80 line of computers, these issues could have been addressed. But, when it comes to early "solid base" operating systems, nothing beats CP/M. And, since the IBM went in what amounted to the CP/M direction, this worked out well for them. > Today I use Linux...an offshoot of the Apple....which is far superior to > Windows and their "pretend" DOS. But it wasn't back then. I write this on a Linux machine, and I love the operating system. Linux is a work-alike of UNIX, developed by Bell Labs (K&R). The Apple OS-X is a licensed variant of UNIX. Linux is NOT an offshoot of Apple. I also own several Macs, and I have to say that I did not find the older Mac OS stuff to be as stable as was claimed. What I found was that Mac owners (more often hobbyists) tended to hide the fact when their computer crashed, whereas PC owners (more often businessmen) tended to gripe about their computer crashing. This gave, as I see it, an erroneous impression of much greater stability for the Mac. I think it WAS more stable, but not by the nearly infinite margin portrayed by many Mac enthusiasts. I liked the simplicity and intuitive nature of the Mac. On the other hand, I detested the idea that they refused to put in a command line interpreter because it wasn't part of "the vision." Bugger that, I have work to do. Make it easy for me, don't force me into your vision... > We have to look at the market and environment of the late 70s when we start > comparing systems. Today the market is different and the systems are > different. We cant compare apples to oranges. Sure we can. Most apples are red, and have a smooth, thin skin. Oranges reflect light at a higher frequency, and have bumpier, thicker skins. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 17:20:37 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:20:37 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" > analogue meters were kind of neat too. Hitachi AS/6s have an analog meter, with a switch to select processor speed, channel speed, and several other parameters. In true mainframe spirit, they also included a calibrate function. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 17:26:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:26:53 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: , <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <45C206BD.762.53780A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 18:18, William Donzelli wrote: > The nerds would then hack these to say 99 MHz. > > The ubernerds would hack them to say 1111 MHz... ...and "who cares" dummies like yours truly would simply hack them to say "HI" and "LO"... Cheers, Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Feb 1 17:36:46 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:36:46 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <677826.27335.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <004301c74621$90f88660$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45C2798E.6070905@comcast.net> yea, back then in high School, my friend had one too. We use to make gadgets to hook up to the expansion port. Nobody I knew had an Apple ][. I finally got one in the early 80's before I switched to the C64. We even try to sell one of our Model I gadgets, analog joystick, out of the computer magazine back then. I found one later on back in the 80's for a lot cheaper, one of the first in my collection. I don't have much software for it, something I like to get more of someday. Dan .==============================================================================. [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] [ Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [ Pgh Vintage Comp.Society http://tinyurl.com/yk4bgx ] [ The only thing Google can't search yet is my mind (just be glad they don't) ] .==============================================================================. Jay West wrote: > Al wrote... >> I have a HUGE softspot in my heart for the TRS-80 Model I, having >> purchased a 16k, Level I unit in December of 1978. A unit, I still >> own today, > That's the one system I don't have in my collection that I'd really > like to - a TRS-80 model I with tandy monitor and perhaps the > expansion unit. I never owned one, but a lot of my friends in the late > 70's timeframe did and we always fought about if my Apple ][+ was > better than their TRS80 :) > > Jay > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 17:41:03 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:41:03 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > Both the Apple and Commodore were hardly flops. They did what they > were designed to do, and made a bunch of money for their respective > owners. I remember seeing an ad for Apple 2e, with the thrust being that it could be used as a CAD machine. Yeah right. Even as a kid I saw that it just did not have the horsepower and graphics to be usable. In this sense, the Apple 2 line flopped big time. At least they probably did not spend a whole lot of money on that aspect of marketting. And, just to beat the beehive a little with the definition of flop - note how many people and webpages refer to the IBM PS/2 line as a flop. For a flop, they sure made a bundle of dough from them... -- Will From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Feb 1 17:45:14 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:45:14 -0800 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:14 PM +0000 2/1/07, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 1/2/07 22:59, "John A. Dundas III" wrote: > >> Although... I do still have an fx in the garage; maybe I should >> resurrect my original simh port? No, when I moved to Carbon, I >> ditched the old Mac OS code for good. Sorry. > >Hi John, > >Dundas-mac is timing out for me here in the uk, is it a US office hours type >machine? No (I'm still in my office), more likely a firewall issue. If you can, try from a different netblock. John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 1 18:05:57 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:05:57 +0000 Subject: Foonly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/2/07 23:45, "John A. Dundas III" wrote: > At 11:14 PM +0000 2/1/07, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 1/2/07 22:59, "John A. Dundas III" wrote: >> >>> Although... I do still have an fx in the garage; maybe I should >>> resurrect my original simh port? No, when I moved to Carbon, I >>> ditched the old Mac OS code for good. Sorry. >> >> Hi John, >> >> Dundas-mac is timing out for me here in the uk, is it a US office hours type >> machine? > > No (I'm still in my office), more likely a firewall issue. If you > can, try from a different netblock. OK, I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 1 18:11:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:11:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20070201160954.H61526@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: > IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital > Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, and it was created at Microsoft by Gordon Letwin From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Feb 1 18:18:25 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:18:25 -0600 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <01C74627.0442BD20@MSE_D03> References: <01C74627.0442BD20@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <45C28351.8020501@pacbell.net> M H Stein wrote: ... > AFAIK Cromix came in 3 versions with numerous revisions: > 11 series is for the Z80; AFAIK latest revision was 11.27 > 20 series is for the 68000 (slooow, use 30 if possible) > 30 series (later changed to 1xx, i.e. 153=30.53) is for 68010 and higher, although > at least the early versions will also run on the 68000. > > Note that with some exceptions and depending on the hardware, > 20 and 30 series will still run Z80 programs. I just tried searching on Cromix -- I knew that Cromemco had whatever flavor of unix running on their 68K machines, but I didn't know there was a Z80 version. Do you know of any manuals online that describe its capabilities? It boggles my mind to think that they got unix running on a Z80. I know of a few hobbyist attempts that have tried to do similar things, but I'm sure if Cromemco sold it, their version must have actually been usable, not just a toy. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:25:25 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:25:25 -0800 Subject: Are there M4 9914 9-track tape driver users on the list? In-Reply-To: References: <1e1fc3e90702011324m48ff8b0eu39f033db70625ded@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702011625m5b98aect1b3fd772a3b91e00@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, Richard wrote: > > Are you buying that one on ebay? I wouldn't want to deal with the freight costs on that. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 1 19:06:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:06:30 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <20070201160954.H61526@shell.lmi.net> References: , <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site>, <20070201160954.H61526@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45C21E16.25893.592B342@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 16:11, Fred Cisin wrote: > and it was created at Microsoft by Gordon Letwin I was very grateful for the very detailed and professionally produced developer's documentation for OS/2. Would that Microsoft had taken as much care for Windoze! --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 20:05:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:05:54 -0700 Subject: has anyone constructed 3D models of vintage gear? Message-ID: The subject pretty much says it all. I've been reading "From Whirlwind to MITRE: The R&D Story of the SAGE Air Defense Computer", which is very similar in feel to "The Rocket Team" (the story of the V2). I was thinking that it would be really cool to have a complete 3D model of the SAGE that you could move through DOOM style. You'd start with coarse texture-mapped approximations until you could model things in more detail. Maybe there are some models already out there? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Feb 1 20:30:39 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:30:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: has anyone constructed 3D models of vintage gear? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Richard wrote: > I was thinking that it would be really cool to have a complete 3D > model of the SAGE that you could move through DOOM style. > > You'd start with coarse texture-mapped approximations until you could > model things in more detail. > > Maybe there are some models already out there? As someone who worked on them, I say that would be very cool. The Smithsonian has a physical 3D model of the SAGE building, with the individual frames laid out. You can also see part of it in the online video "On Guard". The only start I've seen at a graphic model is this: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/pan01.htm Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Feb 1 20:37:02 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:37:02 -0600 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: <45C28351.8020501@pacbell.net> References: <01C74627.0442BD20@MSE_D03> <45C28351.8020501@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45C2A3CE.9060505@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: ... > I just tried searching on Cromix -- I knew that Cromemco had whatever > flavor of unix running on their 68K machines, but I didn't know there > was a Z80 version. Do you know of any manuals online that describe its > capabilities? It boggles my mind to think that they got unix running on > a Z80. ... answering my own question: Cromemco Cromix Instruction Manual.pdf on howard harte's site: http://www.s100-manuals.com/Harte-manuals/Cromemco/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 20:51:41 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:51:41 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > Howzbout the same way that after-market ATs measured their speed for the > > front panel digital display? (Jumpers to set two numbers, and "turbo" > > line to switch between them) > > The nerds would then hack these to say 99 MHz. > > The ubernerds would hack them to say 1111 MHz. At McMurdo Station, c. 1995, someone "hacked" 66MHz to 69Mhz on several '486s. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 21:06:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:06:16 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45C2AAA8.9080304@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/1/07, William Donzelli wrote: >> > Howzbout the same way that after-market ATs measured their speed for >> the >> > front panel digital display? (Jumpers to set two numbers, and "turbo" >> > line to switch between them) >> >> The nerds would then hack these to say 99 MHz. >> >> The ubernerds would hack them to say 1111 MHz. > > At McMurdo Station, c. 1995, someone "hacked" 66MHz to 69Mhz on several > '486s. I've done that. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 21:09:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:09:50 -0700 Subject: Cromemco Unix? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:37:02 -0600. <45C2A3CE.9060505@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <45C2A3CE.9060505 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > on howard harte's site: > http://www.s100-manuals.com/Harte-manuals/Cromemco/index.html Sweet, he had a "Cromemco 3100 Terminal Service Manual" there, which is exactly what I need to fix my beehive terminal! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 21:11:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:11:24 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> <20070201132225.M51016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" > > > analogue meters were kind of neat too. > > On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, woodelf wrote: > > So just how does one construct such a meter? An analog meter? I hacked one onto a machine a couple of years ago... it was a simple resistor ladder with a 3" panel meter attached to the output. It wasn't precise - the needle would dip when going from 0x1F to 0x20 or from 0x7F to 0x80 since the values were approximage, but it did the trick. One thing I did do was to hack the internal resistor in the meter to match the output levels that a modern desktop parallel port could provide (ISTR the original meter scale was 0VDC - 10VDC and I dropped it to approx 0V - 5V). All one does at that point is to write a tiny app that takes a number from 0-255 and emit it on a parallel port, and the needle swings to that point. You can't change it rapidly due to physical inertia, but for slow changes, it works great. If you want a digital representation of load, you can either drive the LEDs directly from the parallel port, or to get more than 8 lights from an 8-pin port, try a bargraph driver like the LM3914... http://www.switkin.com/software/geeklights/index.html > Howzbout the same way that after-market ATs measured their speed for the > front panel digital display? (Jumpers to set two numbers, and "turbo" > line to switch between them) I recall looking at them at one point, but they are essentially a forest of jumpers to light various segments of either a 2 or 2-1/2 digit LED - no drivers whatsoever. One _could_ light them up under computer control, but you'd have to roll your controls. Long ago, I did hang a pair of Radio Shack 7-segment LEDs off of a PET User Port with some trivial logic to use the 8th bit to select digit A vs digit B, then the lower 7 bits of the port went right to the segments. A small machine-language routine tapped into the 60Hz clock interrupt refreshed the digits. For a modern machine, I'd recommend some sort of external latch and multiplexer at least, or perhaps a dedicated LED driver like the ICL7218 (MAX7218?) (here's one I made a while back with 16 digits from one parallel port and two driver chips) http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/scoreboard.html -ethan From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Thu Feb 1 22:16:46 2007 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:16:46 -0800 Subject: Visual 50 keyboard Message-ID: <45C2BB2E.6010903@PACBELL.NET> Found an old keyboard for a visual 50 terminal... If anyone can use this it is just for shipping charges... From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Feb 1 22:25:34 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:25:34 -0600 Subject: Problem with AS/400 terminal Message-ID: Hi Everyone! I was wondering if any of the CRT gurus here could help me out with a problem I'm having with my Twinax AS400 term. When I turn it on, it's fine. However, it's got a power saving feature that turns off the screen if it goes idle for too long. If this is activated and I try to wake it up by pressing a key on the keyboard, the screen goes crazy like it's got a bad refresh rate or something. The only way to fix it is to power it off and back on, which works every time - the problem with that is, I lose my twinax session, which can deadlock the machine depending on what mode I'm running it in. Any ideas? Julian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 22:26:29 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:26:29 -0700 Subject: Visual 50 keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:16:46 -0800. <45C2BB2E.6010903@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: In article <45C2BB2E.6010903 at PACBELL.NET>, BOB LAAG writes: > Found an old keyboard for a visual 50 terminal... If anyone can use > this it is just for shipping charges... Hi, I'm interested! Where are you located? I'm in 84106. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 22:36:59 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:36:59 -0500 Subject: Looking for OS/278 to boot up a DECmate I In-Reply-To: <200701201706.l0KH6Es20429@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200701201706.l0KH6Es20429@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 1/20/07, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > I can put these on floppies or if you know of a known good RX01/RX02 > image for a DECmate I can use it. David, The disks showed up in the mail today. I'll dig out the DECmate I and see what I can see this weekend. Thanks so much! Do you want to host images I create, or should I just get them to bitsavers (or both)? Cheers, -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 22:44:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:44:06 -0700 Subject: Problem with AS/400 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:25:34 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "Julian Wolfe" writes: > When I turn it on, it's fine. However, it's got a power saving feature that > turns off the screen if it goes idle for too long. If this is activated and > I try to wake it up by pressing a key on the keyboard, the screen goes crazy > like it's got a bad refresh rate or something. The only way to fix it is to > power it off and back on, which works every time - the problem with that is, > I lose my twinax session, which can deadlock the machine depending on what > mode I'm running it in. I'm just learning how to diagnose and repair terminals, but this sounds like a wiggy capacitor? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 1 22:44:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:44:37 -0700 Subject: Visual 50 keyboard In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:26:29 -0700. Message-ID: Dang, that was supposed to be off list, but I'm sure noone is surprised I piped up :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 22:47:09 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:47:09 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: I used the 7070 because that was all that was available. Don't know the 7090. But at the time the 7070 was the best available. The US gov paid dearly for it even though it had only 9K of memory, 10 bit words and no hard drives, just a bank of big Ampex tape drives. When it shut down it took 2 days to get all the blown tubes replaced so it was back up again. Needed 30 tons of air conditioning and a room as big as a basketball court to contain it. But again, it was the best available at the time. It was 18 more years before the TRS-80, Apple, and Commodore were available so, yes, it was the best for number crunching. Even though the team of 12 mathematicians that I belonged to that was tasked with the solving of a particular problem with slide rules and locked in for 72 hours until it was solved, could solve the problem faster than the 7070 for the first six months we had it. After 6 months of tweaking the program (which was on pull out boards with jumpers) they finally got the 7070 where it could beat us regularly and with equal accuracy. That was a relief for us since we really hated those 72 hour "lock ins" which could come on a moments notice usually starting in the middle of the night. But I think my wife hated them even more because she didn't even know where I was or what I was doing. All she knew was, "Good night, honey, I will see you in a few days." As to enabling the computer, I think loading a program is enabling...don't you? Please don't talk down to me. I think I have been around computers as long as you and I don't like your condescending tone.. On 2/1/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 13:35 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > > The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. Just look at > the > > numbers. The apple was a flop because it was marketed as entertainment > and > > drawing pictures (which it excelled at) while the TRS-80 was a > scientific > > machine that crunched numbers. Yes, today the tables are reversed, but > back > > then, those of us who were into computers (I had been in computers since > > 1960 on the IBM 7070) were looking for computing power for serious work. > > The Apple was just not that. The Commodore didnt make it because it was > > under powered and again was marketed toward using it for games not > serious > > work. > > > Both the Apple and Commodore were hardly flops. They did what they > were designed to do, and made a bunch of money for their respective > owners. I'm not sure I understand how you are defining "success" and > "flop" here. The Apple, additionally, had the exciting market-making > feature of an open bus, allowing others to make products for the > machine. This was later adopted by IBM. > > > > > I still have several of all three and at the time I would use my > > TRS-80 whenever I was programming. The others were FUN machines made > for > > children while the TRS-80 was capable of programming in BASIC, FORTRAN, > > NLOS, FORTH and Assembly to name only the languages that I had enabled > on > > my machine. > > > "Enabled?" Uh, it APPEARS that you don't understand the concept. > Languages are LOADED on a machine, they're not there waiting to be > "enabled" and then used -- other than the BASIC in ROM on several > machines, the IBM included. Any language could be implemented on either > the Apple or the Commodore, and a wide variety WERE implemented -- I'll > leave it to the outraged fans of both camps to provide a detailed > list... > > > > > AND the DOS in the TRS-80 was miles ahead of the others and was > > accessible. When IBM came out with their machine I wished they had > licensed > > TRS-DOS and then developed that instead of starting with their own. Yes > > IBMs DOS went on to outstrip TRS-DOS, but just think how much faster the > > development would have been if they had started with the solid base that > > TRS-DOS had set down. > > > IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital > Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, > which was essentially stillborn. And, since MS-DOS was simply an XLATed > hot copy of CP/M-80 with a couple of changes, IBM computers essentially > ran by the grace of CP/M, one way or the other. While TRS-DOS wasn't > actively bad, it was highly clumsy, and did odd things for some speed > which tied it to specific hardware altogether too tightly, such as > sticking the directory of a diskette in the middle tracks of the > diskette. That kind of kludge doesn't translate well to a move to hard > drives, and other large media. TRS-DOS also took advantage of hardware > specifics of the TRS line of computers, as I understand it, which would > have made it more difficult to port to other-company machines. Of > course, had the goal been to have TRS-DOS succeed, rather than the > TRS-80 line of computers, these issues could have been addressed. > > But, when it comes to early "solid base" operating systems, nothing > beats CP/M. And, since the IBM went in what amounted to the CP/M > direction, this worked out well for them. > > > > > Today I use Linux...an offshoot of the Apple....which is far superior to > > Windows and their "pretend" DOS. But it wasn't back then. > > > I write this on a Linux machine, and I love the operating system. > Linux is a work-alike of UNIX, developed by Bell Labs (K&R). The Apple > OS-X is a licensed variant of UNIX. Linux is NOT an offshoot of Apple. > I also own several Macs, and I have to say that I did not find the older > Mac OS stuff to be as stable as was claimed. What I found was that Mac > owners (more often hobbyists) tended to hide the fact when their > computer crashed, whereas PC owners (more often businessmen) tended to > gripe about their computer crashing. This gave, as I see it, an > erroneous impression of much greater stability for the Mac. I think it > WAS more stable, but not by the nearly infinite margin portrayed by many > Mac enthusiasts. I liked the simplicity and intuitive nature of the > Mac. On the other hand, I detested the idea that they refused to put in > a command line interpreter because it wasn't part of "the vision." > Bugger that, I have work to do. Make it easy for me, don't force me > into your vision... > > > > > We have to look at the market and environment of the late 70s when we > start > > comparing systems. Today the market is different and the systems are > > different. We cant compare apples to oranges. > > > Sure we can. Most apples are red, and have a smooth, thin skin. > Oranges reflect light at a higher frequency, and have bumpier, thicker > skins. > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 00:25:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:25:40 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site>, Message-ID: <45C268E4.6872.6B6E3A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2007 at 22:47, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I used the 7070 because that was all that was available. Don't know the > 7090. But at the time the 7070 was the best available. IIRC, the 7090 came out about year before the 7070. 36-bit binary; 32K words standard configuration. It was the "scientific" model of the line. The gummint made some strange choices. The Air Force bought a bunch of 7080's then eventually replaced them with (IIRC) S/370s running in emulation mode. Outside of the Air Force, I don't think I ever saw another 7080. But 7090/94s were pretty plentiful and were being used well into the 70's. DIdn't the IRS have a bunch 7070's? Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Feb 2 00:29:15 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:29:15 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070202010708.03bd32c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Warren Wolfe may have mentioned these words: On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 13:35 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The apple was a flop, yes. The Commodore also was a flop. From a purely "the company made a tidy profit" standpoint, I would have to disagree with you. ;-) While TRS-DOS wasn't actively bad, it was highly clumsy, and did odd things for some speed which tied it to specific hardware altogether too tightly, IMHO, no more odd than most other platform-based OSs of the time... Considering that it was originally designed for solely one rather specific computer line, it's not surprising for it to be tied rather tightly to the hardware. such as sticking the directory of a diskette in the middle tracks of the diskette. That kind of kludge doesn't translate well to a move to hard drives, and other large media. Mid-drive directories/FATs/GATs a "kludge?" Ah, no... There are specific (and very logical) reasons for that, and as long as you don't store files larger than half of the available storage (else you'd have a guaranteed fragmented file) what does it matter *where* you stick the directory info??? When you have a fairly full floppy, you're never more than 1/2 the disk away from your directory info. If you put a directory structure in the middle of a hard drive, that fact wouldn't change, would it? Not to mention: Why doesn't *every* OS stick the system files on the *last* tracks of the media? It would be much easier to re-sysgen said media without worrying about the OS kernel getting too large for the preallocated area of the disk/drive. > Today I use Linux...an offshoot of the Apple.... Ah... no. *Way* off on that one, Jim! 'Nuff said. >which is far superior to > Windows and their "pretend" DOS. But it wasn't back then. Not for playing games... well... except Rogue. Rogue on the IBMs *sucked*. OS-9 and the CoCo rule for that! ;-) What I found was that Mac owners (more often hobbyists) tended to hide the fact when their computer crashed, So did MacOS! Did you ever try to troubleshoot an "Error Number -61259" message??? [[ No, I don't remember the exact number - but it turned out to be a dysfunctional Ethernet card - and after 5 techs telling me "That error message is *impossible*"... I actually started _preferring_ BSoDs... :-/ ]] Ah well... bedtime. See y'all tomorrow, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 01:30:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:30:26 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070202010708.03bd32c8@mail.30below.com> References: , <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site>, <5.1.0.14.2.20070202010708.03bd32c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <45C27812.29334.6F22F4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 1:29, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Mid-drive directories/FATs/GATs a "kludge?" Ah, no... There are specific > (and very logical) reasons for that, and as long as you don't store files > larger than half of the available storage (else you'd have a guaranteed > fragmented file) what does it matter *where* you stick the directory info??? I've seen varioius interpretations of this scheme (even one or two CP/M systems, believe it or not) and while it's an interesting twist, I'm not sure of its benefit. If one allocates alternately from the free tracks either side nearest the directory track it might have some performance advantages, but I've seen a lot of implementations that put the directory splat in mid-disk and then proceed to allocate from the outer tracks as normal. It's pretty obvious that something other than performance was the thought there. In fact, the outer cylinder used for root directory and allocation tables does make sense from a certain standpoint--the bit packing density is the lowest on the outer tracks, so they at least in theory should be the most reliable. But there's no reason to have directories or FATs or any such thing. Displaywriter data diskettes, for example have nothing that one would recognize as a regular "directory". There is a master header block located on cylinder 37, but it merely contains a freespace bitmap and a list of first blocks of other lists. It's necessary to walk through the lists to find the file names--and the lists they point to to actually access the data. I've never used a Displaywriter, but operation when opening documents must have been on the slow side. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 2 01:40:34 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:40:34 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> Warren Wolfe wrote: > I write this on a Linux machine, and I love the operating system. > Linux is a work-alike of UNIX, developed by Bell Labs (K&R). The Apple > OS-X is a licensed variant of UNIX. Linux is NOT an offshoot of Apple. OK, I know this is way OT, but I'd like to see that documented. As far as I know OS X is NOT a licensed UNIX. As a matter of fact, by any definition I'd use, it's not unix period. It just has a really pretty [and incredibly useful] POSIX API. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 2 01:55:58 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:55:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Feb 2, 7 01:40:34 am" Message-ID: <200702020755.l127twMS025726@floodgap.com> > > I write this on a Linux machine, and I love the operating system. > > Linux is a work-alike of UNIX, developed by Bell Labs (K&R). The Apple > > OS-X is a licensed variant of UNIX. Linux is NOT an offshoot of Apple. > > OK, I know this is way OT, but I'd like to see that documented. As > far as I know OS X is NOT a licensed UNIX. As a matter of fact, by any > definition I'd use, it's not unix period. It just has a really pretty > [and incredibly useful] POSIX API. AFAIK, it's Mach with a POSIX layer and a FreeBSD userland, and of course Apple's custom stuff bolted on. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- Aesop ----------------------------------- From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 1 14:58:14 2007 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:58:14 +0100 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <200702012032.l11KVUO4092179@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702012032.l11KVUO4092179@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45C25466.2060707@softjar.se> "Bill Pechter" skrev: > Actually, my favorite three DEC boxes are the 11/70, the 8650 Vax and the > Minc. > > Wierd mix... but they're pretty much representative of a lot of the stuff > from Real Time through timesharing. Interesting that you should mention just those machines, Bill, as I feel the same way, except that I haven't touched a Minc yet. But as it happens, we have two 11/70 machines and two VAX 8650 machines fully functional here. :) It don't get much better than that. Johnny From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Thu Feb 1 15:36:24 2007 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:36:24 -0000 Subject: Canadian Peecee on eBay - very artsy ;) In-Reply-To: <20070201203515.70169.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070201203515.70169.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007401c74649$073b9250$3201a8c0@hal> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: 01 February 2007 20:35 > To: talk > Subject: Canadian Peecee on eBay - very artsy ;) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/8088-Best-Performer-88-10-1980s-PC-with-Ke yboard_W0QQitem > Z330083298764QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I really hate the way eBay has made its URLs search engine friendly... Try this instead; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330083298764 Cheers Dave ;) From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Feb 1 16:20:18 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:20:18 +0000 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45C267A2.8010504@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:26 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per Second" >>> analogue meters were kind of neat too. >> So just how does one construct such a meter? > > Have the logic generate a pulse at the beginning (or end) of each > instruction cycle, buffer it, feed it into an integrator, and then into > an analog meter. Easy as pie. Not as simple as that - you'd just have an analogue frequency meter showing the instruction rate. If you wanted it to show how busy the machine is, something in the idle loop toggle the bit that drives the integrator. Set the bit high when you come out of the idle loop, set it low when you go in... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Feb 1 16:22:20 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:22:20 +0000 Subject: RCA 1802CE Chips In-Reply-To: <57217.34543.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <57217.34543.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C2681C.3010403@gjcp.net> Al Hartman wrote: > We only have a limited amount of chips. Once these are gone, I can't get any more. You could look inside old BT payphones. Gordon. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 18:34:58 2007 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:34:58 +0000 Subject: Chris M. on arty computers and Mindset Message-ID: The quintessentail 'arty' machine I still say is the Coleco ADAM! Not so much for its external appearance but my its internal structure was worth crowing about. And it was a bargain in 1984's 8-bit computer crash. Oh. So sad! And 'artsy-fartsy'. Haven't seen that term since I came across a hang-out/bar/folk-arts place in Tokyo in 1997. Happy computing! Murray :) From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Feb 2 02:18:44 2007 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:18:44 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS In-Reply-To: References: <002701c743f4$3ac3f330$1504010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <20070202081844.GA3897@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 05:46:34PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > (I apply pioneers to those of us that were doing this seriously over > ten years ago - before this list, and before there even was a hobby). Aha, excellent! I would like to apply for Pioneer Status, please. Is there a newsletter? In all seriousness, I got my start at university in 1992 when loads of DEC equipment was turning up all over campus. Eventually, I founded the Cornell University Classic Computer Club with several like-minded engineering friends who loved the guts of old computers. We spent many fun hours hacking on PDP-11s. We even dragged several up to the central lounge in our dorm building and set them up with a little display, a sort of mini-museum. Good times. I miss them lots! -Seth From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Feb 2 04:16:13 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:16:13 -0500 Subject: Arty computers Message-ID: <01C74689.797DCD20@MSE_D03> ------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:11:24 -0500 From: "Ethan Dicks" Long ago, I did hang a pair of Radio Shack 7-segment LEDs off of a PET User Port with some trivial logic to use the 8th bit to select digit A vs digit B, then the lower 7 bits of the port went right to the segments. A small machine-language routine tapped into the 60Hz clock interrupt refreshed the digits. For a modern machine, I'd recommend some sort of external latch and multiplexer at least, or perhaps a dedicated LED driver like the ICL7218 (MAX7218?) (here's one I made a while back with 16 digits from one parallel port and two driver chips) http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/scoreboard.html -ethan ------------Comment: For driving 7seg displays or LEDs, I'd recommend an MC14489; it'll directly drive 5 mux'ed 7 segment displays (hex or pseudo-alpha), straight binary, or 25 LEDs from a 3 wire DC to 3MHz serial interface. Saves a lot of wiring, especially if you use multi-digit displays; just the thing for a blinkenlights panel... mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 10:16:20 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:16:20 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital > Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, > which was essentially stillborn. Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but nothing could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by Microsoft and sold to IBM. OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in use in damn near every bank office in the country for a very long time, with probably half of those installations likely still in place...I know the two banks I go to regularly still run it on at least one desktop. OS/2 is an extremely widely deployed operating system...you just can't buy it in Best Buy, so people think it's dead...or never lived in the first place. It was only discontinued 1.5 years ago. Please note that this is NOT coming from an OS/2 fan. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 10:17:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:17:40 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2007, at 6:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > And, just to beat the beehive a little with the definition of flop - > note how many people and webpages refer to the IBM PS/2 line as a > flop. For a flop, they sure made a bundle of dough from them... In reference to my response to OS/2 having been "stillborn"...PS/ 2s were also HUGE in the banking industry. Absolutely huge. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 10:23:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:23:01 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C26E04.10802@jbrain.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <20070201131215.V51016@shell.lmi.net> <3F945FBF-8280-4403-8822-10E3A72A1C93@neurotica.com> <45C26E04.10802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2007, at 5:47 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> And, at Computer Faire #3 (LA), there was demo of a software >>> intensive >>> voice recognition unit for Apple ][ >> >> I have a very dusty memory of a friend having had one of those. >> He ran it in his Franklin Ace 1000. It seemed to work at least >> reasonably well. This would've been around 1984 or so. >> > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), maybe it was > ported to the II Wasn't that a speech synthesizer, rather than a recognition system? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 10:24:02 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:24:02 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C267A2.8010504@gjcp.net> References: , <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <45C1B046.3191.3E5BE51@cclist.sydex.com> <45C222B5.5060202@jetnet.ab.ca> <45C267A2.8010504@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <7EDE8039-BAD5-4060-AEB4-254312B727CF@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2007, at 5:20 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> The old GE machines with the "Thousands of Operations Per >>>> Second" analogue meters were kind of neat too. >>> So just how does one construct such a meter? >> Have the logic generate a pulse at the beginning (or end) of >> each instruction cycle, buffer it, feed it into an integrator, and >> then into an analog meter. Easy as pie. > > Not as simple as that - you'd just have an analogue frequency meter > showing the instruction rate. Right, which is what I interpreted the original poster to mean. Was that not what he meant? > If you wanted it to show how busy the machine is, something in the > idle loop toggle the bit that drives the integrator. Set the bit > high when you come out of the idle loop, set it low when you go in... That'd work very nicely for a load indicator. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 10:32:12 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:32:12 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in > use in damn near every bank office in the country for a very long > time, with probably half of those installations likely still in > place...I know the two banks I go to regularly still run it on at > least one desktop. One of the eastern supermarket chains runs OS/2, running the checkout lines. You would not know unless you see the machine boot. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 2 10:33:45 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:33:45 -0800 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C367E9.5060305@shiresoft.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital >> Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, >> which was essentially stillborn. > > Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but > nothing could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by > Microsoft and sold to IBM. Bzzzt. Wrong! OS/2 was a joint development between IBM and Microsoft (and the resulting JDA caused much wrangling and hand wringing at IBM). Neither company wrote the entire beast. Some of the meetings on things like memory management and scheduling were pretty close to thermonuclear. No, it was pretty close to 50-50 (maybe even skewed a bit more towards IBM). After the famous Gates decision on Windows, IBM went it alone. Even from the start, IBM had a considerable team (think 100's) working on *code* for OS/2. And no, I did not work on OS/2 (ok, just for a little while but it wasn't my fault). I'm a Unix guy through and through, but I was in close proximity to both the project and people for ~10years. -- TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 2 10:38:05 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:38:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Feb 2, 7 11:23:01 am" Message-ID: <200702021638.l12Gc5Pu008906@floodgap.com> > > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), > > Wasn't that a speech synthesizer, rather than a recognition system? Correct. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Die Another Day" ---------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 2 10:38:54 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:38:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 2, 7 11:16:20 am" Message-ID: <200702021638.l12Gcs6X029910@floodgap.com> > > IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital > > Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, > > which was essentially stillborn. > > Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but > nothing could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by > Microsoft and sold to IBM. OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in > use in damn near every bank office in the country for a very long > time, with probably half of those installations likely still in > place...I know the two banks I go to regularly still run it on at > least one desktop. OS/2 is an extremely widely deployed operating > system...you just can't buy it in Best Buy, so people think it's > dead...or never lived in the first place. It was only discontinued > 1.5 years ago. I was driving by an ATM a couple days ago and there were some guys working on it with an OS/2 screen clearly showing. Not exactly rare in the wild :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you had any brains at all, you'd be dangerous. -------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 2 10:43:01 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:43:01 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com><45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com><1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site><801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <007c01c746e9$367574a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Will wrote... > One of the eastern supermarket chains runs OS/2, running the checkout > lines. You would not know unless you see the machine boot. I happened to be at two different banks drive-through ATM machines in recent memory when they had failed and I was able to see them boot. The ATM machines were actually running OS/2. And these weren't small local banks - they were large regional/national ones. At least in my own small experience and the customers I was exposed to, it appeared that while OS/2 did make only a very tiny impression in the home market, it was very common in corporate america. Some day I'd like to go back and play with Warp :) Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 10:43:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:43:52 -0500 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6DF29D83-61C7-4C8B-8BC2-85B773E72EEF@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > My 11/70: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html Ahh, a decdatasystem 570! I have one of those as well. Yours is an absolutely gorgeous system; it looks very well-maintained and nicely set up. I note that you've got Emulex SC-72 SMD controllers...I've got one of those, and will hopefully be installing it in my machine soon. How easy are they to get running? Here's my (similar but smaller) machine: http://www.neurotica.com/albums/pdp1170/tn/pdp1170.jpg.html -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Feb 2 10:44:54 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:44:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070202164455.2170158544@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by William Donzelli > > > OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in > > use in damn near every bank office in the country for a very long > > time, with probably half of those installations likely still in > > place...I know the two banks I go to regularly still run it on at > > least one desktop. > > One of the eastern supermarket chains runs OS/2, running the checkout > lines. You would not know unless you see the machine boot. > Which one? All the self-checkout lines I have seen are running Windows :-(.. I could tell by the Windows lock screen on the out-of-order systems. Why oh why couldn't an OS be used that is actually real-time and more responsive?! Cheers, Bryan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 2 10:50:04 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:50:04 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C36BBC.2010709@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital >> Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, >> which was essentially stillborn. > > Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but nothing > could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by Microsoft > and sold to IBM. OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in use in damn > near every bank office in the country for a very long time, with > probably half of those installations likely still in place...I know the > two banks I go to regularly still run it on at least one desktop. OS/2 > is an extremely widely deployed operating system...you just can't buy it > in Best Buy, so people think it's dead...or never lived in the first > place. It was only discontinued 1.5 years ago. For some very peculiar value of "discontinued". IBM has announced OS/2's end-of-life more times than I can count. Customers keep offering huge sums to keep up mintenance, IBM will keep maintaining it. The last time I actually checked was in October or so, but I could still get a current copy. Doc From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 10:50:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:50:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy 2000 and stuph 4 sale in Colorado Message-ID: <972425.8627.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> "Model 2000 keyboard Intro to Model 2000 manual (874-9486) Tandy 2000 Tech Reference Manual (26-5404) Tandy TRS-80 Digi Mouse/Clock Controller Board (26-5144) Tandy Monitor MonoChrome (26-5111) Model VM-1, Date Manuf. 3/1984, SN: RS022001 Tandy Intelligent Modem, DCM-7 (26-1394) Tandy TRS-80 Personal Computer, Model 2000 (26-5103) MS DOS Basic floppy disk (1), for the Model 2000 (26-5103) This is the Tandy disk, not a copy. The items listed above are all in their original boxes." I've been asked to take offers and submit them to the seller. Therefore e-mail me directly. Colorado Springs, Colorado. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 10:58:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:58:34 -0800 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> References: , <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site>, <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C2FD3A.22486.8FA5705@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 11:16, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but > nothing could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by > Microsoft and sold to IBM. At one time, at least as far as the world outside of Microsoft was concerned, Microsoft was a big booster of OS/2. From "The OS/2 Notebook" (Microsoft Press, 1990): Gates: "OS/2 is our top priority" Many developers (myself included) , partially on the basis of Gates' and Cannavino's statements, plunked down very hefty chunks of cash as pre-subscription to the OS/2 2.0 Development kits being promised by Microsoft. When MS annouced that they would not be pursuing OS/2 2.0 and shipped pre-releases of NT instead, there were threats of lawsuits unless a full refund was promptly paid. Believe me, the quality of developer's documentation for NT was substantially below that of OS/2, although the first NT code (at least the kernel stuff) was very nicely written and commented. My reaction on seeing the NT floppy driver for the first time was "How can they make something so simple look so complicated?" > OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in use in damn near every bank > office in the country for a very long time, with probably half of > those installations likely still in place...I know the two banks I go > to regularly still run it on at least one desktop. OS/2 is an > extremely widely deployed operating system...you just can't buy it in > Best Buy, so people think it's dead...or never lived in the first > place. It was only discontinued 1.5 years ago. Many people would be surprised to find that it was widely deployed in ATMs. Better OS/2 than Windows, I suppose. Where can one find a copy of the last OS/2 release? I'd like a copy for my archives. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 11:01:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:01:52 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702021638.l12Gc5Pu008906@floodgap.com> References: from Dave McGuire at "Feb 2, 7 11:23:01 am", <200702021638.l12Gc5Pu008906@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 8:38, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), > > > > Wasn't that a speech synthesizer, rather than a recognition system? > > Correct. And long before that, there were the Votrax and Computalker S-100 boards. Cheers, Chuck From us21090 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 11:04:37 2007 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:04:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers Message-ID: <20070202170437.85073.qmail@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I like the looks of the Olivetti Underwood Programma 101. It even had two blinky lights: green (solid=ready, blinking=busy) and red (error) http://www.silab.it/frox/p101/boxbig.gif If I recall correctly it was the first computer(*) I programmed. Back in '72-73, while in Jr. High (btw, not "Middle School"). Several interesting things about the P101: Introduced in 1965 (same year as PDP-8). No ICs; all discrete components. The boards were placed component side to component side, designed with one board's components fitting in the spaces between the components of the other board. Programs were stored on magnetic cards, which Olivetti received patents for (HP had to pay about $900K in royalties for the technology use in the HP9100) Its approximate 240 bytes of memory used acoustic delay line technology. Scott Austin (*) Computer? Programmable Calculator? I'll let someone else debate about this. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 2 11:07:21 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:07:21 -0800 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <6DF29D83-61C7-4C8B-8BC2-85B773E72EEF@neurotica.com> References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> <6DF29D83-61C7-4C8B-8BC2-85B773E72EEF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C36FC9.5050808@shiresoft.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> My 11/70: >> >> http://www.shiresoft.com/systems/11-70/index.html > > Ahh, a decdatasystem 570! I have one of those as well. Yours is an > absolutely gorgeous system; it looks very well-maintained and nicely > set up. I note that you've got Emulex SC-72 SMD controllers...I've > got one of those, and will hopefully be installing it in my machine > soon. How easy are they to get running? Not too bad. I was lucky and all of mine worked. Just print out the manual and make sure everything's configured correctly. I have the 8-drive versions. I put the CDC drives on a separate controller because apparently there's "issues" with mixing Eagles and CDC drives on the same chain. I only have 0 & 1 plugs for the CDC drives, I didn't want to have to "spin" them in order to boot the 11/70. > > Here's my (similar but smaller) machine: > http://www.neurotica.com/albums/pdp1170/tn/pdp1170.jpg.html Cool! My DS570 came just as a CPU. I've configured everything else myself. The cabinet that the Eagles are in is from an 11/780 (I have a lot) so while physically correct, the color scheme is wrong. -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 11:16:08 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:16:08 -0700 Subject: the history of the personal computer in TV commercials Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 11:19:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:19:42 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:01:52 -0800. <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 2 Feb 2007 at 8:38, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), > > > > > > Wasn't that a speech synthesizer, rather than a recognition system? > > > > Correct. > > And long before that, there were the Votrax and Computalker S-100 > boards. I first heard speech synthesis with a Votrax unit attached to a PLATO system at UDel in 1978. The PLATO folks there were pretty arrogant and obviously had a bigger budget than we did with their comfy chairs, fancy rooms (with AIR CONDITIONING!), Votrax units and PLATO graphics terminals while we had LA-36s and wiggy Beehives at 300 baud. We were the underdogs :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 11:26:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:26:42 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <7EDE8039-BAD5-4060-AEB4-254312B727CF@neurotica.com> References: , <45C267A2.8010504@gjcp.net>, <7EDE8039-BAD5-4060-AEB4-254312B727CF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C303D2.2249.91417C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 11:24, Dave McGuire wrote: > Right, which is what I interpreted the original poster to mean. > Was that not what he meant? I never bothered to ask enough questions- about it--just noted its presence on the console. It's entirely possible that the meter measured nothing but the RNI rate. Sadly, there are few photos of the old GE iron on the web. Even the SMECC website seems to be lacking. My visit to the Honeywell/GE Plant was in 1974-5 or so and the GE systems were tucked away in a corner and not operating. I suspect they were being prepared for disposal. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 11:01:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:01:48 -0700 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:44:54 -0500. <20070202164455.2170158544@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? Give me a break. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 07:36:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 06:36:14 -0700 Subject: Canadian Peecee on eBay - very artsy ;) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:36:24 +0000. <007401c74649$073b9250$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: In article <007401c74649$073b9250$3201a8c0 at hal>, "David Hunt" writes: > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M > > Sent: 01 February 2007 20:35 > > To: talk > > Subject: Canadian Peecee on eBay - very artsy ;) > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/8088-Best-Performer-88-10-1980s-PC-with-Ke > yboard_W0QQitem > > Z330083298764QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > I really hate the way eBay has made its URLs search engine friendly... > > Try this instead; > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330083298764 Or just post the item #... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Gary at realtimecomp.com Fri Feb 2 11:45:57 2007 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:45:57 -0800 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <000401c746ed$bf87a5c0$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> References: , <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site>, <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <000401c746ed$bf87a5c0$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A216@server1.RealTime.local> > On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Where can one find a copy of the last OS/2 release? I'd like a copy > for my archives. > > Cheers, > Chuck Try here. http://www.ecomstation.com It's actually still being worked on by a third party. Gary From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 2 11:46:42 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:46:42 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C37902.7090502@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? It needs a *stable* OS. Real-time pre-emptive multitasking was just a side benefit :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 2 11:52:35 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 09:52:35 -0800 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc Message-ID: <45C37A63.9000601@bitsavers.org> > Where can one find a copy of the last OS/2 release? eBay, though it is still going for real money there. OS/2 software is one of the things that I have been acquiring for CHM as an example of a non-Windows software technology from the 90's. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 2 11:45:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:45:47 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C378CB.6060706@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? > > Give me a break. I suppose the requirements were for something reliable, low-cost, and networkable; at the time there probably weren't many choices and no doubt IBM sold them some big back-end to manage the thing... From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 11:55:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:55:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2007, at 5:20 PM, Bill Pechter wrote: > My God! I just looked at the PDP11 console on the OSX SimH. > > It's beautiful. I use the PDP8 Xwindows emulator by Doug Jones... > but I've > always felt the PDP11 needed something similar. I wish I could > code enough > to do the full front panel in software for SimH. > > Nice work. (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. *click* *click click* Oh My. Oh yes, that most certainly IS a fine piece of work. Anyone running simh on a Mac should really see this. Very impressive! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 12:01:54 2007 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:01:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 Message-ID: <66379.32534.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Gordon wrote: > Al Hartman wrote: > >> We only have a limited amount of chips. Once these are gone, I can't get any more. > > You could look inside old BT payphones. > > Gordon. Except, this is NEW, OLD STOCK. NOT pulls... HUGE difference. Al From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 12:10:04 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:10:04 -0700 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:46:42 -0600. <45C37902.7090502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <45C37902.7090502 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > It needs a *stable* OS. OK, this is getting off charter for the list, but for the record its not hard to have a stable Windows box, despite all the whining to the contrary. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 2 12:45:28 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:45:28 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc References: <45C378CB.6060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <007701c746fa$4f228860$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: Re: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc > Richard wrote: > > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? > > > > Give me a break. > > I suppose the requirements were for something reliable, low-cost, and > networkable; at the time there probably weren't many choices and no doubt IBM > sold them some big back-end to manage the thing... > Quite a few checkout machines I see are character based (DOS maybe), so I would think they keep using OS/2 because it works well with DOS and the system probably would need rewritten if you used another OS (why spend the money if what you have works). From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 12:53:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:53:30 -0800 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <45C37902.7090502@oldskool.org> References: , <45C37902.7090502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C3182A.5898.9639045@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 11:46, Jim Leonard wrote: > Richard wrote: > > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? > > It needs a *stable* OS. Real-time pre-emptive multitasking was just a > side benefit :) Let us not ignore the fact that IBM-manufactured checkout systems are still ver common. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 2 13:02:36 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:02:36 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702021402.36326.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 02 February 2007 12:01, Richard wrote: > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? "Why the hell does [a] supermarket checkout need".. DirectX? An OS-integrated web browser? etc, etc, etc... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 2 13:03:13 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:03:13 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <66379.32534.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <66379.32534.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200702021403.13352.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 02 February 2007 13:01, Al Hartman wrote: > Gordon wrote: > > Al Hartman wrote: > >> We only have a limited amount of chips. Once these are gone, I > >> can't get any more. > > > > You could look inside old BT payphones. > > > > Gordon. > > Except, this is NEW, OLD STOCK. NOT pulls... > > HUGE difference. At least with pulls, you know they've probably been tested recently :/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 2 13:20:16 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:20:16 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C38EF0.8070004@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > In article <45C37902.7090502 at oldskool.org>, > Jim Leonard writes: > >> It needs a *stable* OS. > > OK, this is getting off charter for the list, but for the record its > not hard to have a stable Windows box, despite all the whining to the > contrary. Not at the time the systems were built. Windows 95 got *worse*, not better. Here's one of many examples: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q216641 -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Feb 2 13:31:26 2007 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:31:26 +0000 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A216@server1.RealTime.local> Message-ID: On 2/2/07 17:45, "Gary L. Messick" wrote: > Try here. > > http://www.ecomstation.com > > It's actually still being worked on by a third party. > > Gary By an odd coincidence, there's an "article" (not a great fan of the site ;-) on The Inquirer today with many people professing to be actively using OS/2: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37401 -Austin. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 2 13:33:41 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:33:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Feb 2, 7 12:55:04 pm" Message-ID: <200702021933.l12JXfON017970@floodgap.com> > (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) > > Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. > > *click* *click click* > > Oh My. > > Oh yes, that most certainly IS a fine piece of work. Anyone > running simh on a Mac should really see this. Very impressive! I can't get in either (from either my workplace PeeCee or my home G5). It just times out. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Shady business do not make for sunny life. -- Charlie Chan ----------------- From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Feb 2 13:57:10 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:57:10 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C391@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: At least with pulls, you know they've probably been tested recently :/ Pat -- ----------------------- Tested, working and burned in (no infant mortality). My luck with pulls is far better than with new components. However to be fair, I have never had a bad microprccessor of any ilk. Billy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 14:05:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:05:30 -0500 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <45C36FC9.5050808@shiresoft.com> References: <45C232EF.1070600@shiresoft.com> <6DF29D83-61C7-4C8B-8BC2-85B773E72EEF@neurotica.com> <45C36FC9.5050808@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 2/2/07, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > My DS570 came just as a CPU. I've configured everything else myself. I'd be happy with a DS570 - my 11/70s are in H960 and lack the nice frontpanel (though Jay West was nice enough to give me an old frontpanel PCB minus the switches he'd harvested). Someday, I'll track down a some defunct switchpanels and harvest enough parts to get one or two frontpanels working (the circuit is quite straightforward and easy to follow). The switch bodies are not the difficult part to find - they are rather ordinary C&K bodies, but the mounting ears are a bit unusual to me - they are meant to snap into an approx 10mm square hole for support, with only the switch leads going through the PCB. The 11/70 frontpanel assembly has a perforated metal bar to accept these switches. On top of that, of course, are the DEC triangular toggles themselves, but they mount to standard C&K toggle pivots - one could transplant things back and forth to reconstruct a frontpanel, presuming one has a source for the snap-in switch bodies to begin with (all of my C&K switches are the PCB-through-hole-mount). > The cabinet that the Eagles are in is from an 11/780 (I have a lot) so > while physically correct, the color scheme is wrong. Color mismatch or not, it's still a nice size... I have no corporate cabs :-( I've had machines in places where I could have had several corporate cabs, but only enough vertical clearance for one H960 (tiny under-shop-floor basement in a 19th century building). -ethan From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Feb 2 14:13:21 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:13:21 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYatesCenter, KS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1170447201.26249.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 16:07 -0500, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > A couple of my high school friends had Model 1s. The father of one > of them thought that "Dancing Demon" was the best thing he had ever > seen on a computer. He regularly requested performances. As far as my father is concerned Dancing Demon was a wonderful innovation. For every computer I got after that he would ask "does it have Dancing Demon?" and I had to disappoint him. If anyone knows of a version for Windows (preferably complete with block graphics) I'm sure he would be grateful! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 14:17:33 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:17:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: <200702021933.l12JXfON017970@floodgap.com> References: <200702021933.l12JXfON017970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Just checked: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/simh-screen2.jpg Works from here. (Comcast...). I'd love to see the Dec DataSystem 570 graphic... #1 marshy:/usr/home/pechter> nslookup dundas-mac.caltech.edu Server: 199.245.130.131 Address: 199.245.130.131#53 Non-authoritative answer: Name: dundas-mac.caltech.edu Address: 131.215.234.40 On 2/2/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) > > > > Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. > > > > *click* *click click* > > > > Oh My. > > > > Oh yes, that most certainly IS a fine piece of work. Anyone > > running simh on a Mac should really see this. Very impressive! > > I can't get in either (from either my workplace PeeCee or my home G5). It > just times out. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Shady business do not make for sunny life. -- Charlie Chan > ----------------- > From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 14:18:10 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:18:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: I've got to stop looking at these pictures. My wife's getting jealous. Bill On 2/2/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 5:20 PM, Bill Pechter wrote: > > My God! I just looked at the PDP11 console on the OSX SimH. > > > > It's beautiful. I use the PDP8 Xwindows emulator by Doug Jones... > > but I've > > always felt the PDP11 needed something similar. I wish I could > > code enough > > to do the full front panel in software for SimH. > > > > Nice work. > > (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) > > Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. > > *click* *click click* > > Oh My. > > Oh yes, that most certainly IS a fine piece of work. Anyone > running simh on a Mac should really see this. Very impressive! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From evan at snarc.net Fri Feb 2 14:24:12 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:24:12 -0500 Subject: Anyone know what this stands for? Message-ID: <000a01c74708$1acef630$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm trying to learn what "NTC" means in the context of PERT, CPM (the biz process, not the OS!), etc. .... Can anyone help? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 14:27:36 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:27:36 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > I used the 7070 because that was all that was available. Don't know the > 7090. But at the time the 7070 was the best available. The US gov paid > dearly for it even though it had only 9K of memory, 10 bit words and no hard > drives, just a bank of big Ampex tape drives. For the record, the 7070 was a solid state machine, as were all the 7000 series processors. Perhaps you were using an older 700 series machine? They were tube based. > When it shut down it took 2 > days to get all the blown tubes replaced so it was back up again. During the first six months or so, yes, probably, but if tubes kept going bad like this past this point, something was seriously wrong with the machine. Once a tube machine was installed and all the weak tubes weeded out - generally it took about six months - reliability shot straight up. Often a tube machine was scrapped with many of the tubes original to the installation. Remember, these were well made tubes, low power, and not pushed to their limits. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Feb 2 14:34:38 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:34:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYatesCenter, KS) In-Reply-To: <1170447201.26249.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1170447201.26249.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > As far as my father is concerned Dancing Demon was a wonderful > innovation. For every computer I got after that he would ask "does it > have Dancing Demon?" and I had to disappoint him. If anyone knows of a > version for Windows (preferably complete with block graphics) I'm sure > he would be grateful! There's always David Keil's Model I emulator: http://discover-net.net/~dmkeil/ Then grab Dancing Demon from Ira Goldklang's site: http://www.trs-80.com Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Feb 2 14:46:50 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070202204651.0F4CA5840B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard > > > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? > > Give me a break. I was talking about the *self* checkout lanes.. All of the ones I have used are slow and cannot keep up with me tapping on the touchscreen. Cheers, Bryan From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Feb 2 14:53:10 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:53:10 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200702021933.l12JXfON017970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 3:17 PM -0500 2/2/07, Bill Pechter wrote: >I'd love to see the Dec DataSystem 570 graphic... Easy: just run the program, use the Preferences menu item, select Console, click on DataSystem 570, whoosh, the console window will change. BTW, someone with a real 570, or an Industrial-11, can make sure I got those right. I have only (!) a "regular" one to measure against. John From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Feb 2 12:56:23 2007 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:56:23 -0600 Subject: Looking for a terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no idea what is was named...I used it in the mid-70's...I was only around 10-12 years old at the time...I'd just love to see a picture of that terminal if anyone had a guess... thanks. -Bob >In article , > Bob Brown writes: > >> Yes...beige. >> >> With, in my opinion, a keyboard with a very nice feel to it. > >Oddly enough, perhaps browsing an old TERMCAP (or terminfo) database >would jog the memory cells on the manufacturer. There is quite a bit >of terminal information in the comments of those files. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 15:03:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:03:53 -0700 Subject: Looking for a terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:56:23 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Bob Brown writes: > I have no idea what is was named...I used it in the mid-70's...I was > only around 10-12 years old at the time...I'd just love to see a > picture of that terminal if anyone had a guess... I've been watching the terminals on ebay for the past couple of years and nothing rings a bell from your description, but that's not saying much. Before terminals became a commodity and the ensuing market shakeout it seemed like everyone and his brother made a terminal. I've been amassing as many pictures and information on terminals that I could find, but nothing sounds like the one you described. For instance here's the stuff the Computer History Museum has online about terminals: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Feb 2 15:12:48 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:12:48 -0800 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C392@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Guy Sotomayor write: Not too bad. I was lucky and all of mine worked. Just print out the manual and make sure everything's configured correctly. I have the 8-drive versions. I put the CDC drives on a separate controller because apparently there's "issues" with mixing Eagles and CDC drives on the same chain. TTFN - Guy ----------------------- Hmmm. I supported the Eagles for the 8 years I was at Fujitsu. Don't remember anything about issues mixing with CDC on the same cables. Come to that, I was at MPI before Fujitsu and don't remember any problems with mixing there either. Of course, the Eagle simply ran forever. I visited a couple that hadn't been powered down in 5 years - just running along quietly in the background. So, I'm not surprised to see some Eagles still running. To me, it was the best disk drive ever made. Certainly the most reliable. I got to be good friends with the designer, Yuji Inoue. He was an incredible engineer. Sadly, he died about 3 years ago. And I add my kudos for your beautiful restoration. It is great to see such a labor of love. Billy From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:20:23 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:20:23 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200702021933.l12JXfON017970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: But I'll have to either steal a PowerPC based Mac -- or get it up under PearPC... :-) Bill On 2/2/07, John A. Dundas III wrote: > > At 3:17 PM -0500 2/2/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > >I'd love to see the Dec DataSystem 570 graphic... > > Easy: just run the program, use the Preferences menu item, select > Console, click on DataSystem 570, whoosh, the console window will > change. > > BTW, someone with a real 570, or an Industrial-11, can make sure I > got those right. I have only (!) a "regular" one to measure against. > > John > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 2 15:32:37 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:32:37 -0800 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C392@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C392@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45C3ADF5.9050902@shiresoft.com> Billy Pettit wrote: > Guy Sotomayor write: > > Not too bad. I was lucky and all of mine worked. Just print out the > manual and make sure everything's configured correctly. I have the > 8-drive versions. I put the CDC drives on a separate controller because > apparently there's "issues" with mixing Eagles and CDC drives on the > same chain. > > TTFN - Guy > > ----------------------- > > Hmmm. I supported the Eagles for the 8 years I was at Fujitsu. Don't > remember anything about issues mixing with CDC on the same cables. Come to > that, I was at MPI before Fujitsu and don't remember any problems with > mixing there either. Of course, the Eagle simply ran forever. I visited a > couple that hadn't been powered down in 5 years - just running along quietly > in the background. > I'm just going by what's in the Emulex docs. The issues were more like "make sure the CDC's are at the end of the string of drives. But the primary motivation was because I only have ID plugs 0 & 1 for the CDCs. They are nice drives...but *very* heavy at 140# (I'm sure glad I have an equipment lift to get stuff in racks). > So, I'm not surprised to see some Eagles still running. To me, it was the > best disk drive ever made. Certainly the most reliable. I got to be good > friends with the designer, Yuji Inoue. He was an incredible engineer. > Sadly, he died about 3 years ago. > I've had a pretty good hit rate with the Eagles. Although I do have some "dead" ones. > And I add my kudos for your beautiful restoration. It is great to see such > a labor of love. > Thanks. It's fun and my favorite system right now. -- TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:32:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:32:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200702021933.l12JXfON017970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 2/2/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > Just checked: > > http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/simh-screen2.jpg Verrry nice. I think I'll have to up the priority of reassembling that B&W G3 (OS 10.3) and giving this a go. It looks great. Thanks for sharing this. -ethan From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:41:07 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:41:07 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: No, it was a 7070, "IBM seven oh seventy", and it used hundreds if not thousands of 12au7s or 12ax7s don't remember which it was. And it was definitely NOT solid state. The first solid state addition to it was a memory matrix unit that used germanium or silicon junctions in a plane of 12x12 giving 144 bits of permanent memory sitting behind a plastic window so we could look at it and marvel at the wonders of science ( I dont think it was really permanent memory as I seem to remember it required a voltage input to keep it from fading) . It was a frame about 12 inches square and looked like a course window screen with small dots of junction at every intersection of the wires. I remember the questions like "I wonder if I stuck a screw driver in there and twisted it around will the computer scream?" All in jest of course. Maybe IBM used some numbers over? But I am absolutely sure of the number because we called it by that name when referring to it. This was in 1959 and 1960 On 2/2/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I used the 7070 because that was all that was available. Don't know the > > 7090. But at the time the 7070 was the best available. The US gov paid > > dearly for it even though it had only 9K of memory, 10 bit words and no > hard > > drives, just a bank of big Ampex tape drives. > > For the record, the 7070 was a solid state machine, as were all the > 7000 series processors. Perhaps you were using an older 700 series > machine? They were tube based. > > > When it shut down it took 2 > > days to get all the blown tubes replaced so it was back up again. > > During the first six months or so, yes, probably, but if tubes kept > going bad like this past this point, something was seriously wrong > with the machine. > > Once a tube machine was installed and all the weak tubes weeded out - > generally it took about six months - reliability shot straight up. > Often a tube machine was scrapped with many of the tubes original to > the installation. Remember, these were well made tubes, low power, and > not pushed to their limits. > > -- > Will > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:42:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:42:10 -0500 Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C392@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C392@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: On 2/2/07, Billy Pettit wrote: > Hmmm. I supported the Eagles for the 8 years I was at Fujitsu... > Of course, the Eagle simply ran forever. I visited a > couple that hadn't been powered down in 5 years - just running along quietly > in the background.... > > So, I'm not surprised to see some Eagles still running. To me, it was the > best disk drive ever made. Certainly the most reliable. We had an Eagle on an SI9900 off of our VAX-11/750 (S/N BT0000354). It ran for years and years and years. I haven't powered it up in a long time (1994?), but at some point when I move around the room to that corner, I would hope that it spins up and works. I have several Eagles hanging off of a similar SI controller on the 11/70s, but they haven't been powered up since I deinstalled the PDPs from Borden. Hopefully they'll spin up and work, too. We never had a single problem with the Eagle in 10+ years of operation (c. 1983-1993). The 160MB drive on the same controller was not so robust, unfortunately. The only complaint I could ever level would be that the Eagle wasn't the same size as a DEC disk, so we always had to patch the driver to insert the internal geometry table when upgrading the OS. Once we got that patch, though, it was a big, fat, reliable, cheap disk. > I got to be good > friends with the designer, Yuji Inoue. He was an incredible engineer. > Sadly, he died about 3 years ago. That's unfortunate to hear. -ethan From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Feb 2 16:00:43 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:00:43 +0000 Subject: has anyone constructed 3D models of vintage gear? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C3B48B.8040108@gifford.co.uk> Richard wrote: > The subject pretty much says it all. I have a 3D model of the BBC Micro that I did in Google Sketchup. > You'd start with coarse texture-mapped approximations until you could > model things in more detail. It's not very detailed, but recognisable and to scale. I can set it up for downloading if anyone's interested, although I think I put it in the Google repository. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 2 16:04:35 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:04:35 -0800 Subject: Fujitsu Eagles Message-ID: <45C3B573.8010202@bitsavers.org> > Hmmm. I supported the Eagles for the 8 years I was at Fujitsu. Don't > remember anything about issues mixing with CDC on the same cables. Come to > that, I was at MPI before Fujitsu and don't remember any problems with > mixing there either. Of course, the Eagle simply ran forever. I visited a > couple that hadn't been powered down in 5 years - just running along quietly > in the background. MANY years ago, I wanted to get rid of a Sun 3 server with two Eagles. Someone from Berkeley came down and loaded the 7' rack into the back of his JEEP. It stuck out from the back so far that the rack fell out about a block from my house (I heard the crash when it hit the road). We helped him put it back in and gave him some rope to tie it in place. Years later, I ran into him, and other than the rack rails having bent back a few inches from the impact, it ran fine.. Heads were locked, of course.. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 16:11:49 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:11:49 -0700 Subject: has anyone constructed 3D models of vintage gear? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:00:43 +0000. <45C3B48B.8040108@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <45C3B48B.8040108 at gifford.co.uk>, John Honniball writes: > I have a 3D model of the BBC Micro that I did in Google > Sketchup. Sweet! I'd like to see it! What was your impression of Google Sketchup? Its a relative newcomer and I haven't heard any opinions on it yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 16:15:32 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:15:32 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > No, it was a 7070, "IBM seven oh seventy", and it used hundreds if not > thousands of 12au7s or 12ax7s don't remember which it was. And it was > definitely NOT solid state. I do not know if IBM made a 707, but I would bet that would be it. The 7070s were made from solid state modules, probably using the SMS packaging system. > Maybe IBM used some numbers over? But I am absolutely sure of the number > because we called it by that name when referring to it. Very rarely, and when it is done, the two instances are completely different, like a modern RAID box and a paper tape reader. -- Will From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 2 16:21:09 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:21:09 -0500 Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> Subject was: Re: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 01:40 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: > > I write this on a Linux machine, and I love the operating system. > > Linux is a work-alike of UNIX, developed by Bell Labs (K&R). The Apple > > OS-X is a licensed variant of UNIX. Linux is NOT an offshoot of Apple. > > OK, I know this is way OT, but I'd like to see that documented. As > far as I know OS X is NOT a licensed UNIX. As a matter of fact, by any > definition I'd use, it's not unix period. It just has a really pretty > [and incredibly useful] POSIX API. Okay... I just checked, and Apple did NOT go to the nicety of licensing OS X as a version of UNIX. I'm sorry I issued incorrect information; I simply assumed that they HAD licensed it, since others in similar situations have done so. The fact that they have NOT licensed what they are using might well put them at legal risk. I believe they could, (and probably SHOULD,) license OS X as containing UNIX code, and my reasoning goes like this: NeXTStep was based upon the Mach 2.5 Kernel. The Mach Kernel was developed at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as a replacement for the kernel in the BSD (actually licensed) version of UNIX, and thus became part of licensed UNIX. NeXT then collaborated with, among others, Sun, to implement a new standard for NeXTStep, Solaris (another actually licensed version of UNIX) and Windows, called OpenStep. Then, in 1997, Apple acquired NeXT, and used NeXT's version of OpenStep as the basis for OS X. One can see proof of this in that the Objective C classes start with "NS," and in the form of a few admissions in the Man Pages in OS X which directly credit NeXTStep. I dunno... Do you find this an adequate lineage? I believe that a decent case could be made, and probably won, that Apple is infringing on UNIX with OS X. It's true I erroneously assumed that Apple had licensed it, since I find it bizarre that a company with as much money as Apple would expose themselves to something as potentially crippling as the loss of their operating system. In a country as litigious as the United States, one does not often find a company leaving their, erm, apples dangling in the breeze that way. I'm still finding it hard to believe, although I do appreciate your pointing that fact out to me. I would guess that the intellectual property rights of UNIX ended up with Alcatel-Lucent, but, that whole related series of trades, spin-offs and mergers has left me a bit confused. In any case, WHOEVER now owns the rights to UNIX would probably be interested in the fact that some version of their code is being sold without license. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 16:34:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:34:01 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <45C34BD9.19684.A2D6F63@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 15:41, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > No, it was a 7070, "IBM seven oh seventy", and it used hundreds if not > thousands of 12au7s or 12ax7s don't remember which it was. And it was > definitely NOT solid state. Jim, are you sure you're not thinking of the 650? The 7090 was definitely all solid-state, as was the 7080. The most detailed web account of the 7070 I can find here indicates that the machine was built up of SMS modules (like the 7090): http://www.multicians.org/thvv/7070.html Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 16:35:47 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:35:47 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <20070202164455.2170158544@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070202164455.2170158544@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920702021435m1680fc8if79842e1b7e9645d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Which one? All the self-checkout lines I have seen are running > Windows :-(.. I could tell by the Windows lock screen on the > out-of-order systems. Why oh why couldn't an OS be used that is > actually real-time and more responsive?! > Ours down here in Texas (at H-E-B) run Linux, netbooting to an X server at 640x480 or a similar res. They aren't responsive worth a hoot, but they are very stable. Until the paper runs out of the reciept printer, that is. ;-) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From ericj at speakeasy.org Fri Feb 2 16:37:33 2007 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > One of the eastern supermarket chains runs OS/2, running the checkout > lines. You would not know unless you see the machine boot. > I spotted OS/2 on an ATM once, but I only knew it was OS/2 because it had crashed to a debug screen. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Feb 2 16:41:16 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:41:16 -0800 Subject: IBM 7070 Was: (TRS-80 Model 1 was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702021441.17009.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 02 February 2007 14:15, William Donzelli wrote: > > No, it was a 7070, "IBM seven oh seventy", and it used hundreds if not > > thousands of 12au7s or 12ax7s don't remember which it was. And it was > > definitely NOT solid state. > > I do not know if IBM made a 707, but I would bet that would be it. I was an IBM Field Engineer on the IBM 7090 and checked out a 7070 while at IBM Poughkeepsie in 1962. It was all transistor, as was the 7090. Last big IBM tube machines were the IBM 704 and 709. > The 7070s were made from solid state modules, probably using the SMS > packaging system. Here's three IBM archive pictures/statments on the IBM 7070: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/endicott/endicott_chronology1950.html (announcement September,1958) http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2070.html (all transistor) http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/italy/italy_ch2.html (see 1960/61) > > Maybe IBM used some numbers over? But I am absolutely sure of the number > > because we called it by that name when referring to it. The IBM 77 was a colator, no 707 was produced. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 2 16:42:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070202010708.03bd32c8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070202010708.03bd32c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20070202143247.G17296@shell.lmi.net> > such as > sticking the directory of a diskette in the middle tracks of the > diskette. That kind of kludge doesn't translate well to a move to hard > drives, and other large media. > > Mid-drive directories/FATs/GATs a "kludge?" Ah, no... There are specific > (and very logical) reasons for that, and as long as you don't store files > larger than half of the available storage (else you'd have a guaranteed > fragmented file) what does it matter *where* you stick the directory info??? On drives that do not have a track 0 switch, the middle tracks are, indeed faster to get to (step, pause, step, pause at something acceptable to the step rate of the drive, for the calculated number of times). BUT, on drives that have a track 0 switch, track 0 can be found substantially faster (step,step,step,step,... until the switch says that you are there, thereby stepping as fast as it will actually go with no pauses). How about OS/2? > Not to mention: Why doesn't *every* OS stick the system files on the *last* > tracks of the media? It would be much easier to re-sysgen said media > without worrying about the OS kernel getting too large for the preallocated > area of the disk/drive. It usta be that there was a quite noticeable difference in reliability between inner and outer tracks. We did not WANT our directory structures on less reliable tracks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 2 16:49:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:49:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070202144759.B17296@shell.lmi.net> > The quintessentail 'arty' machine I still say is the Won't we be flamed if we don't acknowledge the Kim-1 as the most beautiful of all time? From RLW953 at aol.com Fri Feb 2 16:11:44 2007 From: RLW953 at aol.com (RLW953 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:11:44 EST Subject: Teac Tape Drive Message-ID: Patrick... You don't by any chance still have any Teac CT-600N data tapes do you...If not do you know where a fella might find some... Thanks Bob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 17:02:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:02:10 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <20070202143247.G17296@shell.lmi.net> References: , <5.1.0.14.2.20070202010708.03bd32c8@mail.30below.com>, <20070202143247.G17296@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45C35272.25543.A4735DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 14:42, Fred Cisin wrote: > It usta be that there was a quite noticeable difference in reliability > between inner and outer tracks. We did not WANT our directory structures > on less reliable tracks. This was true to such an extent in the 8" SSSD days that I rewrote the diskette formatter to start by formatting and verifying on track 76, figuring that it would save a lot of time. A couple of manufacturers back then guaranteed their diskettes, so it was worthwhile saving the bad ones, particularly considering the cost of media. However, it seems that modern (?!?) 3.5" DSHD diskettes fail on the outer tracks more frequently. Probably just from wear and lousy coating formulation. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 2 17:03:48 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:03:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <20070202144759.B17296@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Feb 2, 7 02:49:03 pm" Message-ID: <200702022303.l12N3mNE029880@floodgap.com> > > The quintessentail 'arty' machine I still say is the > > Won't we be flamed if we don't acknowledge the Kim-1 as the most beautiful > of all time? Are you saying you don't? ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Sometimes Dilbert is so true, it's scary. -- Mike Jacobs ------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 17:06:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:06:15 -0800 Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> References: , <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com>, <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C35367.19096.A4AF2A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 17:21, Warren Wolfe wrote: > I dunno... Do you find this an adequate lineage? I believe that a > decent case could be made, and probably won, that Apple is infringing on > UNIX with OS X. Probably not--remember we're talking copyright here, not patent law. So the real question hinges on "Did OS X copy a substantial amount of original Unix source code?" From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 2 17:39:24 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: OS X and Unix Message-ID: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> > Okay... I just checked, and Apple did NOT go to the nicety of > licensing OS X as a version of UNIX. Apple has had a Unix source license for a VERY VERY long time. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 2 17:48:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:48:46 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6@cclist.sydex.com> References: from Dave McGuire at "Feb 2, 7 11:23:01 am", <200702021638.l12Gc5Pu008906@floodgap.com> <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <94B4B8AD-4739-4A56-9B08-1761528928D6@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), >>> >>> Wasn't that a speech synthesizer, rather than a recognition >>> system? >> >> Correct. > > And long before that, there were the Votrax and Computalker S-100 > boards. Do you mean Digitalker, or was there a Computalker? I have a Digitalker in my S-100 system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 2 17:52:10 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:52:10 -0500 Subject: CDC Plato Dial-in? In-Reply-To: <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C3CEAA.2030607@atarimuseum.com> I read a long while back that several people had gotten the Plato Network running again, I was looking on the Plato People site, but I guess they may not be the ones doing it, but someone else. I have The Learning Phone which is a software package developed by Atari and Control Data in late 1983 to allow Atari 8bit computers to dial into and connect to the Plato Network. I wanted to see if the network is back up and if they have standard modem dial in numbers as I'd really love to see the system working again on my Atari 800. Thanks, Curt From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Feb 2 17:54:37 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:54:37 -0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C35272.25543.A4735DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00a401c74725$86758800$2c04010a@uatempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > However, it seems that modern (?!?) 3.5" DSHD diskettes fail on the > outer tracks more frequently. Probably just from wear and lousy > coating formulation. A few days ago I read a claim that floppies are used infrequently these days (compared to how often they used to be used) so the dust and grime that gets sucked through a drive has longer to accumulate before being deposited onto the occasional floppy that does make it in there (for a BIOS upgrade or whatever). I'm not sure I believe that: my 5.25" disks seem more reliable than the 3.5" ones. Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 2 17:58:59 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:58:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: arty computers Message-ID: <200702022358.l12NwxMh043205@keith.ezwind.net> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > The quintessentail 'arty' machine I still say is > the > > > > Won't we be flamed if we don't acknowledge the > Kim-1 as the most beautiful > > of all time? > Kim-wahhh??!! (joking) I don't think anyone has mentioned the C= PET. You can't leave that out, what with the whole 2001 thing and all that. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. Does anyone know what has happened to the Old Computer Museum? I can't connect to it? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 2 17:54:29 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:54:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <1170447201.26249.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> from "Lawrence Wilkinson" at Feb 2, 7 08:13:21 pm Message-ID: > > As far as my father is concerned Dancing Demon was a wonderful > innovation. For every computer I got after that he would ask "does it > have Dancing Demon?" and I had to disappoint him. If anyone knows of a > version for Windows (preferably complete with block graphics) I'm sure > he would be grateful! Can't you run the roiginal under one of the TRS-80 emulators ? (having got a real TRS-80, and no PC capable of running the emulator, I've not investigated this). I would assume said emulators support sound out via the cassette port (if you see what I mean), Dancing Demo was far from the only program to use this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 2 17:25:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:25:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: nice pdp-11 photos In-Reply-To: <45C25466.2060707@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Feb 1, 7 09:58:14 pm Message-ID: > > "Bill Pechter" skrev: > > > Actually, my favorite three DEC boxes are the 11/70, the 8650 Vax and the > > Minc. > > > > Wierd mix... but they're pretty much representative of a lot of the stuff > > from Real Time through timesharing. > > Interesting that you should mention just those machines, Bill, as I feel > the same way, except that I haven't touched a Minc yet. The MINC is certainly an interesting machine... As you probably know, it's a Q-bus box. The backplane is electrically pretty standard (with CD interconnect), but mechnaically odd. At the right had side are 7 (IIRC) slots at the normal spacing. There are then 8 slots widely spaced for the MINC modules, and finally one more slot on the left end. The last slot takes a BDV11 bootstrap/terminator module. The 7 'normal' slots hold the CPU (a PDP11/03 or PDP11/23 CPU board), RAM, IBV11 (IEEE-488 interface), dLV11-J (console port and 3 more 'spare' serial ports), LPV11 (printer) and a disk cotnroller, either an RXV21 or RLV11, depending on whetehr you have the RX02 or RL01 version of the MINC. Those 7 slots have a cover over them which has 'Do Not Remove -- DEC Field Service Only' written on it, needless to say that didn't stop me :-) The 8 slots in the middle of the backplane take the MINC realtime I/O modules. I know of the floowing : MNCAD (12 bit ADC with 8 input mxx) MNCAA (4 channel 12 bit DAC) MNCDI (16 bit digital input MNCDO (16 bit digital output) MNCKW (clock/counter) MNCAM (16 input analogue mux) MNCTP (8 channel (IIRC) themocouple preamp) MNCAG (4 channel voltage/current/resistance preamp). These modules partly communnicate over the CD interconnect of the backplane, as well as using the normal Qbus signals. For example the preamps pass their outputs into the ADC module, the clock can be used to trigger the ADC. I find 'lab' computers and their ioterfaces interesting. HP were another company who had some nice products in this area, such as BCD interfaces for their desktop calcualtors to link them to digital measuring instruments, and the Multiprogrammer (a modular I/O system that could be controlled by many HP computers and which had capabilities similar to the I/O section of the MINC) -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 2 18:03:06 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 00:03:06 -0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, February 2, 2007 17:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) > > Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. > > *click* *click click* > > Oh My. It's still timing out for li'l ol' me in the UK :o| -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 2 18:13:47 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 00:13:47 -0000 (GMT) Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> References: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1242.192.168.0.4.1170461627.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, February 2, 2007 23:39, Al Kossow wrote: > > Okay... I just checked, and Apple did NOT go to the nicety of > > licensing OS X as a version of UNIX. > > Apple has had a Unix source license for a VERY VERY long time. Is it also worth a mention that the unix side of OSX is freely available to download as Darwin? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 18:14:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:14:03 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <94B4B8AD-4739-4A56-9B08-1761528928D6@neurotica.com> References: , <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6@cclist.sydex.com>, <94B4B8AD-4739-4A56-9B08-1761528928D6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C3634B.29099.A89052B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 18:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > Do you mean Digitalker, or was there a Computalker? I have a > Digitalker in my S-100 system. http://incolor.inebraska.com/bill_r/computalker.htm From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 18:25:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:25:35 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <00a401c74725$86758800$2c04010a@uatempname> References: <45C35272.25543.A4735DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <00a401c74725$86758800$2c04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45C365FF.17198.A939216@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 23:54, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > A few days ago I read a claim that floppies are used infrequently > these days (compared to how often they used to be used) so the > dust and grime that gets sucked through a drive has longer to > accumulate before being deposited onto the occasional floppy > that does make it in there (for a BIOS upgrade or whatever). Horsepucky. (I know--I should quit mincing my words and say what I *really* think :) ) My drives get used a lot--and are scrupulously maintained. Modern 3.5" DSHD media is garbage. I have far better luck with DS2D 3.5". Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 2 18:33:15 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:33:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <45C3634B.29099.A89052B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 demonstration. It's not in very good shape though. It has curled some and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it without destroying it, and what's the best way to preserve what's left? Bob From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 2 18:42:11 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:42:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) Message-ID: <200702030042.l130gB0e044977@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2007 at 23:54, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > > A few days ago I read a claim that floppies are > used infrequently > > these days (compared to how often they used to b e > used) so the > > dust and grime that gets sucked through a drive > has longer to > > accumulate before being deposited onto the > occasional floppy > > that does make it in there (for a BIOS upgrade o r > whatever). > > Horsepucky. > > (I know--I should quit mincing my words and say wh at > I *really* > think :) ) > > My drives get used a lot--and are scrupulously > maintained. Modern > 3.5" DSHD media is garbage. I have far better luc k > with DS2D 3.5". > > Cheers, > Chuck > Most of the 3.5" drives at work are hardly used. We only use about 4 computers to transfer data to/from the analytical machines. Another one transfers data directly to a PC via the network. That leaves about 7 computers that we rarely (maybe once every 3 months) use the 3.5" floppy drive on. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 2 18:43:49 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:43:49 -0600 Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> References: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C3DAC5.1050009@mdrconsult.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Okay... I just checked, and Apple did NOT go to the nicety of > > licensing OS X as a version of UNIX. > > Apple has had a Unix source license for a VERY VERY long time. And I think that herein lies the source of confusion. I know Apple has a Unix source license. I was differentiating between that and licensing your OS as branded UNIX. Doc From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 2 19:12:55 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com In-Reply-To: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070203011255.63131.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 5 units at govliq: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1112993&convertTo=USD Bob From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 2 19:15:05 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:15:05 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 11:16 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital > > Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, > > which was essentially stillborn. > > Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but > nothing could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by > Microsoft and sold to IBM. NOTHING could be farther from the truth? Ahem. Well, your last sentence is, actually. OS/2 started out as a theoretically 50/50 project by Microsoft and IBM. Over time, IBM took over more of the work. The clash of corporate cultures was immense, and became unbearable for both parties. The project was essentially dropped as a joint project, and IBM picked it up and finished it. Microsoft carried on with OS/3 development, and changed its name to Windows NT. IBM had promised it to customers, and insisted upon delivering. > OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in use in damn near every > bank office in the country for a very long time, with probably > half of those installations likely still in place... Oh, please. OS/2 NEVER took off, despite a Big Blue push, and despite being better in essentially all respects than Windows. Sure, some business customers bought it. After a while, it was so cheap, it begged companies to buy it. I suspect many of them bought it BECAUSE it was such an orphan -- employees could not bring in games to play, because almost no games EXISTED for the platform. As a mainstream operating system, I claimed it was stillborn, and I maintain that claim. There are still DOS machines running, but that does not make DOS a modern contender. DOS, however, once WAS the mainstream O/S, unlike OS/2. OS/2 never made a noticeable dent in the installed Intel base. IIRC, OS/2 never went above 20% even in the server market -- and this is back when the alternatives were totally bug-saturated. OS/2 was a great deal better than Windows, but OS/2 has stagnated for at least a decade, and that is a virtual eternity in the computer industry. Banks went for it, reasonably big time, back when it was a new, hot thing... Financial institutions are notoriously pokey about changing things, and they stayed with OS/2 after it was a mature, then ripe, then partially mouldy product. Even ATMs are leaving the OS/2 world in droves. See: http://www.atmmarketplace.com/article.php?id=6490 > I know the two banks I go to regularly still run it on at > least one desktop. OS/2 is an extremely widely deployed operating > system...you just can't buy it in Best Buy, so people think it's > dead...or never lived in the first place. It was only discontinued > 1.5 years ago. Had it been anything but stillborn, it would not have been discontinued; IBM does NOT like to give up on a product. The fact that it was not for sale in retail outlets for about the last ten years should indicate it's acceptance rate. It sold poorly even when it was the best O/S available. If, by "widely deployed," you mean a large average distance between installations, I would have to agree. > Please note that this is NOT coming from an OS/2 fan. ;) Well, actually, I kind of WAS/AM an OS/2 fan. I just knew, however, it was doomed to obscurity, and banishment to the deepest dungeons of the financial sector. It was the first O/S for home machines that did a competent job of multi-tasking. It's a shame it never sold as well as it should, but, those are the breaks. If quality were the main issue, home machines today would be made by IBM or Processor Technology, and run OS/2 or Linux, on Motorola chips. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 2 19:26:24 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:26:24 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C303D2.2249.91417C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45C267A2.8010504@gjcp.net> , <7EDE8039-BAD5-4060-AEB4-254312B727CF@neurotica.com> <45C303D2.2249.91417C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1170465984.24953.82.camel@linux.site> Hey, Given that my predilections run to personal computers, for the most part, my entry in the arty computer would be the Processor Tech Sol computer. Spare, elegant, wood-trimmed, and so WELL engineered. Too bad the company employed only engineers... a finance or business person or two in the front office would have enhanced their survival potential. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 19:28:32 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:28:32 -0700 Subject: CDC Plato Dial-in? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:52:10 -0500. <45C3CEAA.2030607@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <45C3CEAA.2030607 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > I read a long while back that several people had gotten the Plato > Network running again, I was looking on the Plato People site, but I > guess they may not be the ones doing it, but someone else. > > I have The Learning Phone which is a software package developed by Atari > and Control Data in late 1983 to allow Atari 8bit computers to dial into > and connect to the Plato Network. > > I wanted to see if the network is back up and if they have standard > modem dial in numbers as I'd really love to see the system working again > on my Atari 800. Its my understanding that the PLATO system is running on an emulator on a PC. No genuine terminals, no genuine hardware, just a simulation. While that lets you experience the software again (to be honest, I don't know where they got the images to run on the simulator!), there isn't any genuine hardware in the setup. IIRC, to connect to it you use telnet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From davebarnes at adelphia.net Fri Feb 2 19:33:13 2007 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:33:13 -0500 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <410C948F-5A67-456D-98C7-3759CCD8D686@adelphia.net> Bob; Unfortunately once a print has started with 'vinegar syndrome' , if its BAD it usually cannot be saved, but this is a slow process and depending upon how bad the 'curl' is it can be treated so that it can be run through a projector and captured. I collect 16mm films and have had to get rid of a couple prints over the years due to vinegar syndome. (which is basically caused by the film base breaking down). What you CAN do , its take the reel and give it LOTS of air (garage, etc ) outside of its can. David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On Feb 2, 2007, at 7:33 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 > demonstration. It's not in very good shape though. It has curled > some and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it > without destroying it, and what's the best way to preserve what's > left? > > Bob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 19:34:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:34:20 -0700 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:33:15 -0800. <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20070203003315.66161.qmail at web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 demonstration. It' s not in very good shape though. It has curled some and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it without destroying it, and what's the best way to preserve what's left? > > Bob There are lots of people who understand how to restore film; I am not sure how many of them can be afforded on a hobbyists budget, however. I would begin my search by talking with 16mm film collectors. Scanning the images on each frame is probably doable with a consumer film scanner. Recovering the audio track is more problematic as its a continuous optical track running along the edge of the film and can't be easily captured without moving the film in some sort of continuous motion. Still, I'm just a complete n00b at film restoration, so I would start by finding a discussion group for 16mm film collectors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 19:36:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:36:06 -0700 Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:12:55 -0800. <20070203011255.63131.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20070203011255.63131.qmail at web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > 5 units at govliq: > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1112993&convertTo=USD Looks nice! If anyone buys this lot, I'll take that funky keyboard off your hands :-). I'd be bidding on it, but I already have two ADM-5s, so I'm good to go there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From g at kurico.com Fri Feb 2 19:52:28 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:52:28 -0600 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C3EADC.3010707@kurico.com> > Had it been anything but stillborn, it would not have been > discontinued; IBM does NOT like to give up on a product. The fact that > it was not for sale in retail outlets for about the last ten years > should indicate it's acceptance rate. It sold poorly even when it was > the best O/S available. If, by "widely deployed," you mean a large > average distance between installations, I would have to agree. > > > > I think the problem that many are having is the term "stillborn" :) If you'll remember, OS/2 had actually a few problems that eventually lead to it's demise. Back when Microsoft was still publicly backing it, it was in it's early 16bit incarnation. It was slow, not very Windows compatible, not very sexy (it wasn't until 1.3 that it "caught up" graphically with Win 3.x), and a resource hog. At the time getting people to take ANY pc based system seriously in the type of markets that OS/2 was gunning for was a way steep uphill battle. By the time WARP came out (OS/2 3.x), what some would call the "real" OS/2, it was far too little far too late. I think what really killed OS/2 was Win 3.1, it didn't make it out of gestation in time. Sales took off, Bill publicly ditched OS/2 and people really didn't have a compelling reason to switch (i.e. no native apps). I'm an old OS/2 fanboy from long ago (I remember with fondness IBM finally delivering OS/2 1.0 and opening the package only to read that this fancy new "Presentation Manager" wouldn't be shipping until 1.1). George From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 19:55:17 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:55:17 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > Oh, please. OS/2 NEVER took off, despite a Big Blue push, and > despite being better in essentially all respects than Windows. Sure, > some business customers bought it. Quite a lot bought it - it was just not front and center on the stage. I think every AS/400 installation was also an OS/2 installation. Same with the mainframe crowd. Percentage of market share does not mean something did not take off. If it were, the Mac and Linux would both be flops. These are installations that we normally do not see, but that does not mean they do not exist. For example - how many people here have actually been in close contact (use regularly, even if just a little at a time) with AS/400s? Four? Five? IBM has, however, made a helluva lot of the machines (more than PDP-11s, actually). Are they flops because most of us see Windows or Unix machines at work? Are they flops because OS/400 has less than a percent of market share? -- Will From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 2 19:57:05 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:57:05 -0500 Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: <45C35367.19096.A4AF2A0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com>, <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> <45C35367.19096.A4AF2A0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1170467825.24953.91.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 15:06 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2007 at 17:21, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > I dunno... Do you find this an adequate lineage? I believe that a > > decent case could be made, and probably won, that Apple is infringing on > > UNIX with OS X. > > Probably not--remember we're talking copyright here, not patent law. > So the real question hinges on "Did OS X copy a substantial amount of > original Unix source code?" Exactly. And, more than likely, the UNIX copyright holder, Lucent, at that time, most likely, would have had some agreement about retaining rights to code produced using their code, which would INCLUDE the Mach 2.5 kernel. If someone else has rights to your kernel, the whole system is legally compromised. Of course, all this is speculation without having the various contracts and cross-licensing agreements they actually put together. I still think, however, that if they used standard sorts of agreements, OS X infringes UNIX. Since Apple has never seemed to be naive in the business sense, perhaps we can assume from this that the licensing agreements involved are NOT standard ones, and that NeXT got rights to the Mach kernel out of it... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Feb 2 19:59:44 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:59:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: > >> IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital Research, >> and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, which was >> essentially stillborn. > > Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but nothing > could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by Microsoft > and sold to IBM. OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in use in damn > near every bank office in the country for a very long time, with > probably half of those installations likely still in place...I know the > two banks I go to regularly still run it on at least one desktop. OS/2 > is an extremely widely deployed operating system...you just can't buy it > in Best Buy, so people think it's dead...or never lived in the first > place. It was only discontinued 1.5 years ago. For that fact, two of the radio stations I've done work for still use OS/2 on dedicated computers for some of their gear. One uses it to control a huge bank of satellite receivers and schedules the equipment to tune into and record a lot of their prerecorded network feeds. -Toth From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 2 19:59:15 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:59:15 -0500 Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> References: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1170467955.24953.94.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 15:39 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Okay... I just checked, and Apple did NOT go to the nicety of > > licensing OS X as a version of UNIX. > > Apple has had a Unix source license for a VERY VERY long time. Thanks for that, Al. Would that apply to all future versions of UNIX? That sounds more open-ended than licenses generally are. I would think that they would have to get a new license for any new use of code, such as the Mach stuff from BSD. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:03:27 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:03:27 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > Had it been anything but stillborn, it would not have been > discontinued; IBM does NOT like to give up on a product. IBM will give up on a product if it is stillborn. They will EOL (end of life) them quickly if they want to kill them off. This really has not happened to OS/2 until relatively recently. If OS/2 was stillborn, IBM would not keep upgrading it over the years. > The fact that > it was not for sale in retail outlets for about the last ten years > should indicate it's acceptance rate. It sold poorly even when it was > the best O/S available. You are not seeing the bigger picture. To add to my previous post - no, you can not buy an AS/400 from a retail outlet either. You can not buy VMS at one, for that matter. Flopness is defined by long term monetary return of a product line. -- Will From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:11:20 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:11:20 -0500 Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <1170467955.24953.94.camel@linux.site> References: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> <1170467955.24953.94.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: There's no licensed AT&T code in the OS/x kernel or the apps... Unless you buy the SCO argument that the methods and open api's from Unix need to be licensed. The AT&T suit with BSDI and UCB settled all the issues with the Net2 release of BSD and FreeBSD released 2.0.x without any infringing code. The later Mach is based off of BSD code from 4.3 and 4.4BSD which was resolved in that suit. Apple has nothing to fear on this one. I worked for Bell Labs and I was surprised to find out the amount of Unix on Apple A/UX was around. Guys I worked with actually worked on some stuff with Apple and Microsoft back in the early 90's. Bill On 2/2/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 15:39 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > Okay... I just checked, and Apple did NOT go to the nicety of > > > licensing OS X as a version of UNIX. > > > > Apple has had a Unix source license for a VERY VERY long time. > > > Thanks for that, Al. Would that apply to all future versions of > UNIX? That sounds more open-ended than licenses generally are. I would > think that they would have to get a new license for any new use of code, > such as the Mach stuff from BSD. > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:13:33 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:13:33 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: As far as not buying VMS at a retail store.... I'm not sure if DEC's store in the Manchester Mall in NH (or was it Nashua) wouldn't have been able to sell you VAX/VMS in 83 if you came in with $250k and wanted to contract for an 11/780. Should've only taken a phone call to get someone to take the check. 8-) Bill On 2/2/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Had it been anything but stillborn, it would not have been > > discontinued; IBM does NOT like to give up on a product. > > IBM will give up on a product if it is stillborn. They will EOL (end > of life) them quickly if they want to kill them off. This really has > not happened to OS/2 until relatively recently. If OS/2 was stillborn, > IBM would not keep upgrading it over the years. > > > The fact that > > it was not for sale in retail outlets for about the last ten years > > should indicate it's acceptance rate. It sold poorly even when it was > > the best O/S available. > > You are not seeing the bigger picture. To add to my previous post - > no, you can not buy an AS/400 from a retail outlet either. You can not > buy VMS at one, for that matter. > > Flopness is defined by long term monetary return of a product line. > > -- > Will > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 2 20:15:07 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:15:07 -0800 Subject: OS X and Unix Message-ID: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> > the Mach stuff from BSD The Mach kernel is from CMU The BSD layer on top of the original Mach on VAXen and Sun boxes had USL encumbrances. The BSD used in OS X is based on FreeBSD, which does not. This should all be described on the Darwin site. From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:16:45 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:16:45 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: BTW -- what killed OS/2 Warp was the problem of Microsoft saying Win32S would give OS/32 windows compatibility and then going hog wild to make sure later Win32 stuff wouldn't run on OS/2. I know how many times IBM had to upgrade OS/2 for Win32 compatibility changes in the WinAPI... I ran OS/2 2.x at IBM and later Warp3 and 4. I also ran Linux and FreeBSD at the time along with Win3.11 for Workgroups until the lack of apps moved me to Win95 and above. Mostly now it's Linux, FreeBSD and XP... although I'd kick XP if it wasnt so damned necessary at work. I've got VMWare Server working right now to do the later as well as a native dual boot setup. Bill On 2/2/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > > As far as not buying VMS at a retail store.... I'm not sure if DEC's store > in the Manchester Mall in NH (or was it Nashua) wouldn't have been able to > sell you VAX/VMS in 83 if you came in with $250k and wanted to contract for > an 11/780. > > Should've only taken a phone call to get someone to take the check. 8-) > > Bill > > On 2/2/07, William Donzelli < wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Had it been anything but stillborn, it would not have been > > > discontinued; IBM does NOT like to give up on a product. > > > > IBM will give up on a product if it is stillborn. They will EOL (end > > of life) them quickly if they want to kill them off. This really has > > not happened to OS/2 until relatively recently. If OS/2 was stillborn, > > IBM would not keep upgrading it over the years. > > > > > The fact that > > > it was not for sale in retail outlets for about the last ten years > > > should indicate it's acceptance rate. It sold poorly even when it was > > > > > the best O/S available. > > > > You are not seeing the bigger picture. To add to my previous post - > > no, you can not buy an AS/400 from a retail outlet either. You can not > > buy VMS at one, for that matter. > > > > Flopness is defined by long term monetary return of a product line. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:18:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45C3634B.29099.A89052B@cclist.sydex.com> <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 demonstration. It's not in very good shape though. It has curled some and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it without destroying it, and what's the best way to preserve what's left? Have a professional do it. A freind had some done for some decaying missile test films out of NARA, and they turned out quite nice. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 20:19:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:19:36 -0700 Subject: govliq: Lockheed Martin disk packs NIB Message-ID: Model 3904930 I don't recognize these, but they look beefy and they're in the original cartons it looks like... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:21:13 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:21:13 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu Eagles In-Reply-To: <45C3B573.8010202@bitsavers.org> References: <45C3B573.8010202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Don't know if the issue was later CDC SMD and ESMD (or was it SMDE) drives with different transfer rates and clocking on the same bus. Sound familliar? I never had the mix. Bill On 2/2/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Hmmm. I supported the Eagles for the 8 years I was at Fujitsu. Don't > > remember anything about issues mixing with CDC on the same cables. Come > to > > that, I was at MPI before Fujitsu and don't remember any problems with > > mixing there either. Of course, the Eagle simply ran forever. I > visited a > > couple that hadn't been powered down in 5 years - just running along > quietly > > in the background. > > MANY years ago, I wanted to get rid of a Sun 3 server with two Eagles. > Someone > from Berkeley came down and loaded the 7' rack into the back of his JEEP. > It stuck > out from the back so far that the rack fell out about a block from my > house (I > heard the crash when it hit the road). > > We helped him put it back in and gave him some rope to tie it in place. > > Years later, I ran into him, and other than the rack rails having bent > back a > few inches from the impact, it ran fine.. > > Heads were locked, of course.. > > > From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:24:07 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:24:07 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <45C37A63.9000601@bitsavers.org> References: <45C37A63.9000601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: What are you looking for. On 2/2/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Where can one find a copy of the last OS/2 release? > > eBay, though it is still going for real money there. > > OS/2 software is one of the things that I have been > acquiring for CHM as an example of a non-Windows > software technology from the 90's. > > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 20:24:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:24:10 -0700 Subject: govliq: RL02 drive Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 2 20:28:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:28:03 -0800 Subject: Arty computers, sort of Message-ID: <45C382B3.14065.B03B0E1@cclist.sydex.com> Did anyone catch this Clive "Max" Maxfield article on IBM DeveloperNet some months back? http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-hrrg1 I like his idea of implementing a computer using RS-485 linkup among the functional units. Is anyone tempted to get their soldering iron warmed up? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 20:30:23 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:30:23 -0700 Subject: govliq: pertec disc platter, VT420, VR201, VT320(3) + more Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:31:11 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:31:11 -0500 Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> References: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Well, yeah. I meant the Mach BSD personality made up on the later stuff was later than the original stuff. I think they used the BSD Light 4.4 stuff -- but I may be mistaken. I thought the OS/x stuff was later than Machi3... I thought it started with Utah's Mach4 stuff... (not UCB... brain fart). http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/mach4/html/Mach4-proj.html This was in 1995 which was before the OS X stuff came out in '99. (or is OS X internally still NextStep's Mach3 stuff upgraded????) Bill On 2/2/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > the Mach stuff from BSD > > The Mach kernel is from CMU > > The BSD layer on top of the original Mach on VAXen and > Sun boxes had USL encumbrances. The BSD used in OS X > is based on FreeBSD, which does not. This should all be > described on the Darwin site. > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 2 20:45:15 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:45:15 -0800 Subject: govliq: Lockheed Martin disk packs NIB Message-ID: <45C3F73B.70205@bitsavers.org> > I don't recognize these IBM 2314 you can see the ibm logo in the back of the 1st pic http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/roger.broughton/DASD/200426.htm From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:45:40 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:45:40 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <007c01c746e9$367574a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com><45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com><1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site><801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <007c01c746e9$367574a0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45C3F754.9060209@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Will wrote... >> One of the eastern supermarket chains runs OS/2, running the checkout >> lines. You would not know unless you see the machine boot. > > I happened to be at two different banks drive-through ATM machines in > recent memory when they had failed and I was able to see them boot. The > ATM machines were actually running OS/2. And these weren't small local > banks - they were large regional/national ones. They used OS/2 because it interfaces with their backoffice mainframes so well. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:46:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:46:36 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <45C36BBC.2010709@mdrconsult.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <45C36BBC.2010709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45C3F78C.80402@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Feb 1, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Warren Wolfe wrote: >>> IBM licensed MS-DOS from Microsoft, and CP/M-86 from Digital >>> Research, and did NOT develop their own Operating System until OS/2, >>> which was essentially stillborn. >> >> Oh nonono. I'm sorry to have to correct you here Warren, but >> nothing could be further from the truth. First, OS/2 was written by >> Microsoft and sold to IBM. OS/2 was FAR from stillborn...it was in >> use in damn near every bank office in the country for a very long >> time, with probably half of those installations likely still in >> place...I know the two banks I go to regularly still run it on at >> least one desktop. OS/2 is an extremely widely deployed operating >> system...you just can't buy it in Best Buy, so people think it's >> dead...or never lived in the first place. It was only discontinued >> 1.5 years ago. > > For some very peculiar value of "discontinued". > > IBM has announced OS/2's end-of-life more times than I can count. > Customers keep offering huge sums to keep up mintenance, IBM will keep > maintaining it. > > The last time I actually checked was in October or so, but I could > still get a current copy. And isn't eCS going to be made (or updated even) for a while yet? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 20:47:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:47:35 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C3F7C7.1000008@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? > > Give me a break. How about OS/4690? Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 2 21:03:46 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:03:46 -0600 Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com References: Message-ID: <008101c7473f$ec2a5ee0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... >> 5 units at govliq: >> >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1112993&convertTo=USD > > Looks nice! If anyone buys this lot, I'll take that funky keyboard > off your hands :-). the ADM-5's in that auction look to have almost the worst case of screen rot I have ever seen. Jay From ericj at speakeasy.org Fri Feb 2 21:36:01 2007 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > The BSD layer on top of the original Mach on VAXen and > Sun boxes had USL encumbrances. The BSD used in OS X > is based on FreeBSD, which does not. This should all be > described on the Darwin site. Wasn't the original BSD personality layer in Nextstep based on 4.2BSD? IIRC Nextstep came out in 1988, and I know I was using it in 1989, which was a few years before 4.4BSD-lite or FreeBSD. If it were based on 4.2BSD, wouldn't that make it encumbered? Or did they update the BSD personality layer and/or Mach kernel in the later releases of Nextstep/OS X? I recall discussing Interface Builder with some Microsoft employees at the UW Academic Computing Center (this was before there was any security in the building, so any bum could walk in to use the terminals). One of them said, "We're working on it." I don't know what they were working on but if it was VB I think they missed the mark. This is not to say VB wasn't a successful product, I just don't think it was as elegant as Interface Builder. From ericj at speakeasy.org Fri Feb 2 21:36:01 2007 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > The BSD layer on top of the original Mach on VAXen and > Sun boxes had USL encumbrances. The BSD used in OS X > is based on FreeBSD, which does not. This should all be > described on the Darwin site. Wasn't the original BSD personality layer in Nextstep based on 4.2BSD? IIRC Nextstep came out in 1988, and I know I was using it in 1989, which was a few years before 4.4BSD-lite or FreeBSD. If it were based on 4.2BSD, wouldn't that make it encumbered? Or did they update the BSD personality layer and/or Mach kernel in the later releases of Nextstep/OS X? I recall discussing Interface Builder with some Microsoft employees at the UW Academic Computing Center (this was before there was any security in the building, so any bum could walk in to use the terminals). One of them said, "We're working on it." I don't know what they were working on but if it was VB I think they missed the mark. This is not to say VB wasn't a successful product, I just don't think it was as elegant as Interface Builder. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 2 21:55:53 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:55:53 -0600 Subject: Arty computers, sort of References: <45C382B3.14065.B03B0E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <011401c74747$33a15650$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Most attractive front panel from an aesthetics standpoint... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Dg-eclipse.jpg The Data General Eclipse (S/130, S/200) front panel is just pretty. Jay West From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 2 21:52:00 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:52:00 -0600 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070202213706.051425e8@mail> At 07:34 PM 2/2/2007, Richard wrote: >I would begin my search by talking with 16mm film collectors. >Scanning the images on each frame is probably doable with a consumer >film scanner. Recovering the audio track is more problematic as its a >continuous optical track running along the edge of the film and can't >be easily captured without moving the film in some sort of continuous >motion. What? No one's wrote code to recover the audio from a digitized version of the optics of the audio track? It shouldn't be much harder than the program that recovers paper tape data this way. :-) - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 2 22:26:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:26:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070202202308.T29460@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 > demonstration. It's not in very good shape though. It has curled some > and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it without > destroying it, and what's the best way to preserve what's left? There are professionals who know what they are doing with film restoration, such as nilesfilmmuseum.org, monaco labs, etc If you don't mind risking total loss of the original, could try cleaning it with TCE, etc. If you want to play with it yourself, I've got a reel to reel film developing tank. From buseyl at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 23:02:16 2007 From: buseyl at yahoo.com (Liam Busey) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:02:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> > > Jay West wrote: > > Al wrote... > >> I have a HUGE softspot in my heart for the TRS-80 Model I, having > >> purchased a 16k, Level I unit in December of 1978. A unit, I still own > >> today, > > That's the one system I don't have in my collection that I'd really like > > to - a TRS-80 model I with tandy monitor and perhaps the expansion unit. > > I never owned one, but a lot of my friends in the late 70's timeframe > > did and we always fought about if my Apple ][+ was better than their > > TRS80 :) > > > > Jay > > That must have been a short argument. I used both a lot in high school. > The model I was unreliable in the extreme. The model III's were much > better in that regard. And for the counter-argument, I have a model 1 that I've had from new, and which has never failed me. COnversely I had nothing but trouble with the Apple ][, a design which i feel is marginal at best! -snip- -tony ************************ Interesting. Most people seem to say nice things about the Apple ]['s design. I'd love to hear some informed bashing ;) . Could you elaborate some about the machine's short comings from your perspective? My biggest annoyance is being unable to determine what state the softswitches are in at any given time. I also understand the cassette interface left something to be desired (I've always enjoyed the luxury of floppies). Beyond that, the machine just oozes quirky charm in my eyes. - Liam Busey (an Apple ][/ ][+ fan) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 23:21:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:21:39 -0700 Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:03:46 -0600. <008101c7473f$ec2a5ee0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <008101c7473f$ec2a5ee0$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > >> 5 units at govliq: > >> > >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1112993&convertTo=USD > > > > Looks nice! If anyone buys this lot, I'll take that funky keyboard > > off your hands :-). > > the ADM-5's in that auction look to have almost the worst case of screen rot > I have ever seen. Are you sure it was screen rot? It looked like dirt and grime to me but I didn't look too closely. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 2 23:27:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:27:27 -0700 Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:03:46 -0600. <008101c7473f$ec2a5ee0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <008101c7473f$ec2a5ee0$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > >> 5 units at govliq: > >> > >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1112993&convertTo=USD > > > > Looks nice! If anyone buys this lot, I'll take that funky keyboard > > off your hands :-). > > the ADM-5's in that auction look to have almost the worst case of screen rot > I have ever seen. Also: they only have a picture of 1 of the 5 ADM-5s in the lot... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Feb 2 23:52:21 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:52:21 -0800 Subject: Arty computers Message-ID: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> > On 1 Feb 2007 at 18:18, William Donzelli wrote: > >> The nerds would then hack these to say 99 MHz. >> >> The ubernerds would hack them to say 1111 MHz... > > ...and "who cares" dummies like yours truly would simply hack them to > say "HI" and "LO"... > > Cheers, > Chuck I surely can't be the only one to have thought of hex... Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest (just pull off of the M1 line). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Feb 3 00:09:10 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:09:10 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Message-ID: <834564984a56586ec229089f179e1ac4@valleyimplants.com> > >>> I write this on a Linux machine, and I love the operating system. >>> Linux is a work-alike of UNIX, developed by Bell Labs (K&R). The >>> Apple >>> OS-X is a licensed variant of UNIX. Linux is NOT an offshoot of >>> Apple. >> >> OK, I know this is way OT, but I'd like to see that documented. As >> far as I know OS X is NOT a licensed UNIX. As a matter of fact, by >> any >> definition I'd use, it's not unix period. It just has a really pretty >> [and incredibly useful] POSIX API. > > AFAIK, it's Mach with a POSIX layer and a FreeBSD userland, and of > course > Apple's custom stuff bolted on. > > Depends on what you mean- I think I recall the Open Group finally got Apple to certify it under threat, but Sys10 has never had a AT&T license AFAIK. OTOH OSF/1|Tru64|DIGITAL UNIX has a very similar structure, and no one argues the UNIXness of that beast (except for those who also argue against AIX). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Feb 3 00:19:14 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:19:14 -0800 Subject: UNIX ownership Message-ID: <655359e7f3aa6b45ba7d6c2fdc20b6a6@valleyimplants.com> Warren says: > I would > guess that the intellectual property rights of UNIX ended up with > Alcatel-Lucent, but, that whole related series of trades, spin-offs and > mergers has left me a bit confused. In any case, WHOEVER now owns the > rights to UNIX would probably be interested in the fact that some > version of their code is being sold without license. > Depends on who you listen to- SCO-Caldera think they got it from Novell, Novell thinks that they still have it from when they bought out AT&T's share of USL and SCO-Caldera only has rights to use... At any rate the UNIX trademarks went to The Open Group, nee UNIX International. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 00:22:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:22:40 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <45C3B9B0.25891.BDA7A3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2007 at 21:52, Scott Quinn wrote: > I surely can't be the only one to have thought of hex... > > Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest > (just pull off of the M1 line). Why not a nixie tube display? I mean, why not really do it up? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Feb 3 01:21:30 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:21:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: <1170467825.24953.91.camel@linux.site> References: , <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com>, <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> <45C35367.19096.A4AF2A0@cclist.sydex.com> <1170467825.24953.91.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Of course, all this is speculation without having the various > contracts and cross-licensing agreements they actually put together. I > still think, however, that if they used standard sorts of agreements, OS > X infringes UNIX. Since Apple has never seemed to be naive in the > business sense, perhaps we can assume from this that the licensing > agreements involved are NOT standard ones, and that NeXT got rights to > the Mach kernel out of it... Last time I checked, OSX was based mostly on BSD4.4-lite by way of FreeBSD and bits of NetBSD. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Feb 3 01:29:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:29:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 > demonstration. It's not in very good shape though. It has curled some > and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it without > destroying it, and what's the best way to preserve what's left? I strongly advise you to not fiddle with it yourself. See how much it'll cost to have a pro restore and transfer it the Right Way. Then we'll pass a hat around. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wizard at voyager.net Sat Feb 3 01:34:43 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 02:34:43 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1170488084.24953.120.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 20:55 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > Oh, please. OS/2 NEVER took off, despite a Big Blue push, and > > despite being better in essentially all respects than Windows. Sure, > > some business customers bought it. > > Quite a lot bought it - it was just not front and center on the stage. > I think every AS/400 installation was also an OS/2 installation. Same > with the mainframe crowd. Percentage of market share does not mean > something did not take off. If it were, the Mac and Linux would both > be flops. Commercially, Linux is a flop. It has an "excuse" in that it's a hobbyist project that metastasized. It didn't start out trying to be the end-all O/S. Linux is also growing, and is actually becoming a market force in the server world. The Mac is also a success in that its sales have (I believe continually) grown. Steve Jobs may have had some idea of taking over the world with the Mac, but that only shows one what good drugs one can buy when one makes a lot of money. (JUST kidding.) There are several markets in which the attributes of the Mac have made it popular, and rightly so. I'm thinking primarily of graphic arts, typesetting, and the like. OS/2 never really had that. It has not steadily grown. The first releases were buggy, it was always a bit slow and demanding of the hardware. By the time good releases of OS/2 were available, the market had moved on. There never was a specialty market especially well served by OS/2, and it clearly was intended to be "the next wave" of software. By the time the kinks had been worked out of OS/2, it's sales were falling off, and it had the faint smell of death about it. I liked it, but my liking it had nothing to do with my evaluation of its chances. In the same way that the PS/2 showed IBM's inability to force the hardware market in a new direction, OS/2 showed that IBM no longer could set the pace in software. At the time, I thought OS/2 to be a colossal waste of programmer time and effort. At the time, I was grousing about IBM should have taken UNIX, for which it was licensed, and put their programmers' time and effort into producing a wonderful GUI for UNIX. As I see it, much of OS/2's initial lack of acceptance was due to the fact that some of the basics of the O/S didn't work well in the first couple releases. By the time those problems had been fixed, it was too late to wrest market share from Windows, which was becoming the juggernaut it is today. If OS/2 had been utterly stable, that is, UNIX, with a GUI that was ever-improving, I think it would have aborted Windows, rather than the reverse, as happened. Just my opinion, but I was consulting at the time, and people who bought computers for small business were waiting to see if OS/2 would work out. Some of them told me that, and bought Windows "while they were waiting for OS/2." Well, that didn't work out at all well for OS/2. By the time that OS/2 was ready for wide business acceptance, most everybody had bought into the Windows platform. > These are installations that we normally do not see, but that does not > mean they do not exist. For example - how many people here have > actually been in close contact (use regularly, even if just a little > at a time) with AS/400s? Four? Five? Me, for one. I had to write some program to pick information out of spool files. Nasty business. > IBM has, however, made a helluva lot of the machines (more than > PDP-11s, actually). Are they flops because most of us see > Windows or Unix machines at work? Are they flops because > OS/400 has less than a percent of market share? Not in MY opinion, FWIW. But, if IBM had expected the 400 to take over the world, and yearly sales had been dropping rather than rising, I would say it WOULD be a flop. OS/2 was never more than a fringe player, although it had promise at one point. It all gets down to what one defines as a "flop." As I see it, OS/2 was a "big-company" flop -- like the Ford Edsel. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Sat Feb 3 01:44:27 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 02:44:27 -0500 Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: References: <45C3CBAC.5040606@bitsavers.org> <1170467955.24953.94.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1170488667.24953.126.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 21:11 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: > There's no licensed AT&T code in the OS/x kernel or the apps... Unless you > buy the SCO argument that the methods and open api's from Unix need to be > licensed. It sounds like you know whereof you speak. I guess it is not surprising that Apple would NOT leave itself open to such nasty possibilities. And, no, I most certainly do NOT buy SCO's arguments. They have become a pointless company, and apparently aren't willing to adapt to new circumstances. > The AT&T suit with BSDI and UCB settled all the issues with the Net2 release > of BSD and FreeBSD released 2.0.x without any infringing code. The later > Mach is based off of BSD code from 4.3 and 4.4BSD which was resolved in that > suit. Cool. Thanks for the info. It's better to have the facts than to just blue-sky it... albeit somewhat more restrictive... > Apple has nothing to fear on this one. I worked for Bell Labs and I was > surprised to find out the amount of Unix on Apple A/UX was around. Guys I > worked with actually worked on some stuff with Apple and Microsoft back in > the early 90's. Again, good information to have. Thanks! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From pyramid at interlog.com Fri Feb 2 23:06:55 2007 From: pyramid at interlog.com (jwolff) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 00:06:55 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Fairchild uA79MG voltage regulator Message-ID: <005e01c74751$20a696a0$47611dd1@PC885314341208> did you find them/ i might have them From wizard at voyager.net Sat Feb 3 04:21:49 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 05:21:49 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 22:47 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I used the 7070 because that was all that was available. Don't know the > 7090. But at the time the 7070 was the best available. The US gov paid > dearly for it even though it had only 9K of memory, 10 bit words and no hard > drives, just a bank of big Ampex tape drives. When it shut down it took 2 > days to get all the blown tubes replaced so it was back up again. If it used tubes, then it was NOT a 7070. Period. You claim to be "absolutely sure" that it was a 7070. If it was, it had no tubes. You also claim to have been using the computer in 1959 and 1960. The 7070 was first released in June of 1960, so you clearly were NOT using a 7070 in 1959, and the first half of 1960. You certainly have SOMETHING wrong here, absolute surety aside. > As to enabling the computer, I think loading a program is enabling...don't > you? I would also consider it pleasing to load a program into a computer. Nonetheless, I doubt I would refer to a program load as "pleasing the computer." > Please don't talk down to me. I think I have been around computers as long > as you and I don't like your condescending tone.. Despite claims to the contrary, it's quite difficult to see "tone" in written words. Sometimes, text is phrased in such a way as to be highly suggestive of a certain tone, but if one believes that "tone" to be indicative, one is acting upon an assumption from complete data, and has a decent chance of assuming incorrectly. What I wrote certainly was not WRITTEN condescendingly. Perhaps you view yourself as such an authority that any attempt to correct you is seen as a de facto insult? Your 7070 gaffe, coupled with statements that the Apple ][ and Commodore 64 were flops, and that Linux came from Apple, your proposal of the false dichotomy of fun computers versus machines which could run various programming languages, and your statement about the TRS-80 having the primary foundation of computer code, when it was, among other things, based upon a second-generation computer chip (and ignoring the MASSIVE software base that had been written for the CP/M environment) could easily lead someone to believe that you know very little about the computer field. I know it guided me to that conclusion, although the 7070 information came later. At the risk of stating the obvious, it seems to me that the easiest way to avoid correction is to avoid saying incorrect things. Personally, I don't mind being corrected, at least when I'm wrong, so it's not an issue for me. I view a venue such as this one as a great place to learn things. For me, learning things involves, from time to time, putting out my view of things, and seeing who salutes it, and who shoots at it. I can then compare what others are saying, and generally expand my knowledge. Sometimes, I will even change an opinion, based upon things others have said or quoted. I do that when I feel my previous opinions have been wrong. Again, personally, I find being able to improve my world view to be highly gratifying. YMMV. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 07:34:50 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:34:50 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170488084.24953.120.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> <1170488084.24953.120.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > It all gets down to what one > defines as a "flop." Your definition of "flop" is very distorted. Its about the long term bottom line. -- Will From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Feb 3 08:41:57 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:41:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <200702031451.JAA02733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Apple did NOT go to the nicety of licensing OS X as a version of > UNIX. There are two completely different issues here. One is, is OSX derived (in the copyright-law sense) from Bell Labs UNIX source code? The other is, does OSX have the right to use the UNIX trademark? Neither one implies the other. The way you use "licensing" seems to imply you're talking about the latter, but your argument based on derivation of code seems to imply you're talking about the former. Since Darwin is open source, Apple clearly believes the former is false; they'd be putting themselves at enormous risk if they open-sourced anything they didn't have good grounds for saying was free of encumbered IP. Just because there is a path via which Bell Labs UNIX code *could* have gotten into Darwin doesn't mean it *did*. > In any case, WHOEVER now owns the rights to UNIX would probably be > interested in the fact that some version of their code is being sold > without license. I would be very interested if you would be so kind as to point out exactly what code in Darwin you think requires a UNIX source license. You refer to it as "fact", so you presumably have an example.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 3 08:55:52 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:55:52 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C4A278.2080005@atarimuseum.com> I was installing Model 60's and 80's at executive desks, model 55SX's at secretaries desks and doing a lot of Model 80's as Novell servers - these were in American Express, Chase and others. I remember we setup an IBM SP-1 in Moody's connected to a Sanyo-Eicon storage array (pre-EMC days) IBM's were DEFINITELY huge in financial banking circles. The real key was always well documenting the MCA card placements and ALWAYS keeping all of the driver disks in an envelope inside of the cover of the machines so that any kind of work that had to happen - you always had the drivers files for the hardware installed. I saw OS/2 Program Manager (I think v1.1) for the first time in a special setup where we doing for American Express along with Compaq on its latest Proliant Servers, a 3rd party company had 2 of them in a custom metal case and they were running as a multi-processor system (essentially 2 separate systems running as one) with OS/2 on it. I remember also I think it was Groliers Encyclopedia was the first time we hooked up a CD-ROM to a server and what a HUGE disapoint when the app ran and it was just nothing be text, no images, and such - we all had this perception that the CD-ROM was going to bring so much multimedia instantly to the PC - a little too wishful thinking too early on ;-) I had always thought OS/2 was a far superior and far more stable OS compared for Win 95 and WinNT 3 But still loved Netware far more :-) Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2007, at 6:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And, just to beat the beehive a little with the definition of flop - >> note how many people and webpages refer to the IBM PS/2 line as a >> flop. For a flop, they sure made a bundle of dough from them... > > In reference to my response to OS/2 having been "stillborn"...PS/2s > were also HUGE in the banking industry. Absolutely huge. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 3 09:07:29 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:07:29 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:34:50 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >> It all gets down to what one >> defines as a "flop." >Your definition of "flop" is very distorted. >Its about the long term bottom line. >-- >Will Spoken like a true bean counter :-( And I know you are not one of those :-) Cased on the myopic viewpoint ot this group, anything with a market share less than windows, and a technical acceptance less than UNIX must be a flop. This is getting old, can we move on, to something more off topic... Just kidding BTW: AFAIK the 704 was the first IBM production system to use core memory, the core plane was about 2in square and sat in the middle of a modified 8 tube plugin modual with no tubes. The 701 "Defense Calculator" introduced in April 29, 1952 and first demostrated in April 7 1953 and the 702 announced September 25, 1953 and withdrawn October 1, 1954 it had 10k of Electrostatic storage using a bank of 84 cathode ray tubes. Decimal digits were stored using charged spots on the display. There was no 703, guess it never got off the drawing board ? THe 704 was announced May 7, 1954 and withdrawn April 7, 1960 it was the first binary computer to use core memory. The 705 was announced October 1, 1954 and withdrawn April 7, 1960 it came out with 20k of core memory and was a real workhorse.. Go Bears ! Bob Bradlee From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 3 09:25:53 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:25:53 -0500 Subject: CDC Plato Dial-in? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C4A981.1030502@atarimuseum.com> Hi Richard - Yeah I found it late in the middle of the night last night. They have a custom terminal program called pterm (plato term I assume) that connects via port 5400 over to their server and brings up the Plato login screen. I applied for a username and hopefully will be able to try it out again, I was hoping though to use my Atari setup. I'm going to email them today and see if they may have plans to put in hooks to allow them to connect a terminal server up, otherwise I'm going to tinker around a bit here in the office and make a gateway and see if I can null modem over to a PC from my Atari and and have the PC pipe the stream down through the null modem connection to the Atari, worth a shot. Curt Richard wrote: > In article <45C3CEAA.2030607 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > > >> I read a long while back that several people had gotten the Plato >> Network running again, I was looking on the Plato People site, but I >> guess they may not be the ones doing it, but someone else. >> >> I have The Learning Phone which is a software package developed by Atari >> and Control Data in late 1983 to allow Atari 8bit computers to dial into >> and connect to the Plato Network. >> >> I wanted to see if the network is back up and if they have standard >> modem dial in numbers as I'd really love to see the system working again >> on my Atari 800. >> > > Its my understanding that the PLATO system is running on an emulator > on a PC. No genuine terminals, no genuine hardware, just a > simulation. While that lets you experience the software again (to be > honest, I don't know where they got the images to run on the > simulator!), there isn't any genuine hardware in the setup. IIRC, to > connect to it you use telnet. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 10:40:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:40:59 -0500 Subject: OS X and Unix In-Reply-To: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> References: <45C3F02B.3000305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <79888EE3-9666-4C1C-979B-7BF75239DB44@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2007, at 9:15 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The BSD layer on top of the original Mach on VAXen and > Sun boxes had USL encumbrances. The BSD used in OS X > is based on FreeBSD, which does not. It's actually a fairly even mix of FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD, according to "strings /bin/* | grep -i bsd" on my 10.4.8 system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 10:49:01 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:49:01 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Cased on the myopic viewpoint ot this group, anything with a market share less than windows, and a > technical acceptance less than UNIX must be a flop. > > This is getting old, can we move on, to something more off topic... Just kidding Even some of IBM's flops turn out to be scores. The 7030 (AKA Stretch) and FS (Future System, the machine to be beyond S/370) both were short/medium term financial disasters for IBM, but the engineering knowledge gained from them paid off in huge proportions in later machines. Beans are important. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 10:53:40 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:53:40 -0500 Subject: Speed meters, was Re: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Feb 3, 2007, at 12:52 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: >>> The nerds would then hack these to say 99 MHz. >>> >>> The ubernerds would hack them to say 1111 MHz... >> >> ...and "who cares" dummies like yours truly would simply hack them to >> say "HI" and "LO"... > > I surely can't be the only one to have thought of hex... Nope...I know three or four people who did that. > Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest > (just pull off of the M1 line). That'd give you a fairly constant reading...not very exciting. Not many Z80 systems have variable clock rates. Though building one wouldn't be difficult. I had an interesting thought while considering the analog meter on the Z80 idea. I do some Forth hacking on Z80s. It'd be pretty easy to hack in a couple of instructions to pulse an output line at the beginning of the routine that executes a Forth word. That'd give you an analog display of the word execution rate. Since different words require different amounts of time to execute, it might actually give you some sort of meaningful display. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 10:54:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:54:45 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C3B9B0.25891.BDA7A3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> <45C3B9B0.25891.BDA7A3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7B38B0CF-4928-4C17-B5E5-BE595EC08993@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I surely can't be the only one to have thought of hex... >> >> Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest >> (just pull off of the M1 line). > > Why not a nixie tube display? I mean, why not really do it up? Nono. Use IN-13 neon bargraph displays. THAT would be neat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 10:55:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:55:04 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C3634B.29099.A89052B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45C2FE00.32498.8FD5BC6@cclist.sydex.com>, <94B4B8AD-4739-4A56-9B08-1761528928D6@neurotica.com> <45C3634B.29099.A89052B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <71A750A3-8709-466B-9496-BE833DD2A7C8@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Do you mean Digitalker, or was there a Computalker? I have a >> Digitalker in my S-100 system. > > http://incolor.inebraska.com/bill_r/computalker.htm Ahh, neat! I had never heard of that product. Thanks for the pointer! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 10:55:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:55:45 -0500 Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: References: , <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com>, <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> <45C35367.19096.A4AF2A0@cclist.sydex.com> <1170467825.24953.91.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <2215676F-406C-48EF-BDB5-18107E2AEDF5@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2007, at 2:21 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> Of course, all this is speculation without having the various >> contracts and cross-licensing agreements they actually put >> together. I >> still think, however, that if they used standard sorts of >> agreements, OS >> X infringes UNIX. Since Apple has never seemed to be naive in the >> business sense, perhaps we can assume from this that the licensing >> agreements involved are NOT standard ones, and that NeXT got >> rights to >> the Mach kernel out of it... > > Last time I checked, OSX was based mostly on BSD4.4-lite by way of > FreeBSD > and > bits of NetBSD. FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD, a pretty even mix, layered atop a CMU Mach-3 microkernel. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Feb 3 11:07:11 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:07:11 -0800 Subject: Arty computers Message-ID: Hi The one I'm looking for was made at a similar time but about a year later was made by Diehl and sold here in the US by SCM. It was also transistors and it used two delay lines. It booted from a metal tape with two rows of holes. I assume clock and data. It had a connector that was suppose to be able to read punch cards. It could store a program of about 60 steps. I used one of these years ago but I don't recall if it had conditional flow. I think most people would consider conditional flow to be the defining line between a calculator and a computer. At least from the users point of view. No one would dispute that the guts of these calculators were computers. Dwight >From: Scott Austin > >I like the looks of the Olivetti Underwood Programma 101. It even had two >blinky lights: green (solid=ready, blinking=busy) and red (error) >http://www.silab.it/frox/p101/boxbig.gif > >If I recall correctly it was the first computer(*) I programmed. Back in >'72-73, while in Jr. High (btw, not "Middle School"). > >Several interesting things about the P101: > >Introduced in 1965 (same year as PDP-8). > >No ICs; all discrete components. The boards were placed component side to >component side, designed with one board's components fitting in the spaces >between the components of the other board. > >Programs were stored on magnetic cards, which Olivetti received patents for >(HP had to pay about $900K in royalties for the technology use in the >HP9100) > >Its approximate 240 bytes of memory used acoustic delay line technology. > >Scott Austin > >(*) Computer? Programmable Calculator? I'll let someone else debate about >this. > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Looking for earth-friendly autos? >Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. >http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ _________________________________________________________________ Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into something more. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 11:27:30 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:27:30 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 2/3/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Even some of IBM's flops turn out to be scores. The 7030 (AKA Stretch) > and FS (Future System, the machine to be beyond S/370) both were > short/medium term financial disasters for IBM... There is, IIRC, a picture of a Stretch in the Time-Life book "Mathematics". I don't have my copy close at hand, but I _think_ the one in the photo was being used for weather modelling. The photographer set up colored spots to highlight different portions of the machine in different colors to match up with the descriptive text. I remember reading this book when I was a very small kid. The computer pictures (and descriptions of core memory, etc.) made a very strong impression on me. The book would have been published in the 1964-1965 timeframe (before I was born), and was therefore rather dated when I would have read it in the early 1970s, but it was still really neat. I guess I can trace my fascination with old machines back to that book. Are there any working 7030s anywhere? -ethan From pechter at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 11:29:04 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:29:04 -0500 Subject: UNIX ownership In-Reply-To: <655359e7f3aa6b45ba7d6c2fdc20b6a6@valleyimplants.com> References: <655359e7f3aa6b45ba7d6c2fdc20b6a6@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: AT&T gave up Unix to Novel via USL back around 1992 -- 15 years ago. Lucent has a couple of software pieces... I think the NMAKE program went to them along with the Sublime version control stuff. I know they used to sell that stuff along with (IIRC -- memory hazy here) the DWB and Programmers Workbench stuff. Bill On 2/3/07, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Warren says: > > > I would > > guess that the intellectual property rights of UNIX ended up with > > Alcatel-Lucent, but, that whole related series of trades, spin-offs and > > mergers has left me a bit confused. In any case, WHOEVER now owns the > > rights to UNIX would probably be interested in the fact that some > > version of their code is being sold without license. > > > > Depends on who you listen to- SCO-Caldera think they got it from > Novell, Novell thinks that they still have it from when they bought out > AT&T's share of USL and SCO-Caldera only has rights to use... > > At any rate the UNIX trademarks went to The Open Group, nee UNIX > International. > > > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 3 11:33:27 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:33:27 -0700 Subject: CDC Plato Dial-in? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:25:53 -0500. <45C4A981.1030502@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <45C4A981.1030502 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > tinker around a bit here in the office and make a gateway and see if I > can null modem over to a PC from my Atari and and have the PC pipe the > stream down through the null modem connection to the Atari, worth a shot. Oooh! Good idea, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if pterm and the Atari program use the same protocol? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 3 11:33:58 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:33:58 -0700 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:29:32 -0800. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > I strongly advise you to not fiddle with it yourself. See how much it'll > cost to have a pro restore and transfer it the Right Way. Then we'll pass > a hat around. I'd contribute to that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 3 11:44:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:44:18 -0700 Subject: UNIX ownership In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:29:04 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Bill Pechter" writes: > AT&T gave up Unix to Novel via USL back around 1992 -- 15 years ago. Ah yes, the ill-fated Univel. It seems its the Kiss of Death if Novell buys your company. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 11:45:46 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:45:46 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Are there any working 7030s anywhere? Not a chance. Only a few (<20) were made. CHM has most of one. 7030s were enourmously complex machines - well over 100,000 transistors, and probably almost a million passive components. It would be a very long shot to try to get one working again. It would probably be easier to get a tube machine like a 709 working. I, of course, encourage CHM to try... At least get the S/360 going... -- Will From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Feb 3 11:48:59 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:48:59 -0800 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article , > David Griffith writes: > > > I have a film editor who works for NBC in los angeles. If you would like for me to contact him, I'll do so and connect you to him. He also collects film industry memorabilia, and probably can connect you with someone who can restore nitrate substrate film. This should be done asap, as it may already be too far gone to be restored if it is putting off acetic acid fumes. this is just one component of decaying substrate, and is the one which erases the image from the film. Remember, the image is not a dye image totally but may contain silver which is very reactive, and having acid fumes present from decaying substrate doesn't make for a long time line to act to save it. jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Feb 3 11:51:40 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:51:40 -0800 Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C4CBAC.3060909@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article <008101c7473f$ec2a5ee0$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, > "Jay West" writes: >Are you sure it was screen rot? It looked like dirt and grime to me > > >but I didn't look too closely. > > I have seen this when the neck has been broken off inside the case. The inrush of air from the vacumn breach, causes all the phospor to be blown off the area directly in front of the place where the neck was. not a good sign. jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 3 11:59:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:59:31 -0700 Subject: LEAR SIEGLER ADM-5's on Goveliquidation.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:51:40 -0800. <45C4CBAC.3060909@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <45C4CBAC.3060909 at msm.umr.edu>, jim writes: > I have seen this when the neck has been broken off inside the > case. The inrush of air from the vacumn breach, causes all > the phospor to be blown off the area directly in front of the > place where the neck was. > > not a good sign. That's good information, thanks. But we still haven't seen the other 4 ADMs, so its hard to say what condition they're in. That's the thing I dislike the most about govliq -- the photos are often worse than useless. Like 6 pictures of the triwall from all different angles without showing what's inside. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 12:01:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:01:10 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <71A750A3-8709-466B-9496-BE833DD2A7C8@neurotica.com> References: , <45C3634B.29099.A89052B@cclist.sydex.com>, <71A750A3-8709-466B-9496-BE833DD2A7C8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C45D66.23724.E59F74F@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2007 at 11:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > > http://incolor.inebraska.com/bill_r/computalker.htm > > Ahh, neat! I had never heard of that product. Thanks for the > pointer! IIRC, you could write or phone the Computtalker people for the demo cassete. A friend actually bought the board. We thought the sounds of the software reading text was pretty funny--and completely unintelligible. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 12:37:31 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:37:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2007, at 7:03 PM, Witchy wrote: >> (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) >> >> Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. >> >> *click* *click click* >> >> Oh My. > > It's still timing out for li'l ol' me in the UK :o| I get to it fine from here, and I have a squid proxy running. If people will send me the IP address(es) that their requests will be coming from, I will add them to squid's ACL and you can point your web browser's http proxy configuration at mypants.neurotica.com, port 3128. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Feb 3 12:41:13 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:41:13 -0600 Subject: Origins of OS X In-Reply-To: <200702031451.JAA02733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <45C2EAF2.1030301@mdrconsult.com> <1170454870.24953.27.camel@linux.site> <200702031451.JAA02733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45C4D749.1040308@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Apple did NOT go to the nicety of licensing OS X as a version of >> UNIX. > > There are two completely different issues here. > > One is, is OSX derived (in the copyright-law sense) from Bell Labs UNIX > source code? > > The other is, does OSX have the right to use the UNIX trademark? Thank you. > I would be very interested if you would be so kind as to point out > exactly what code in Darwin you think requires a UNIX source license. > You refer to it as "fact", so you presumably have an example.... I think that IBM would tell you that the latter doesn't necessarily follow the former.... Doc From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 13:10:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 11:10:59 -0800 Subject: CDC Plato Dial-in? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45C46DC3.1699.E99E449@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2007 at 10:33, Richard wrote: > > tinker around a bit here in the office and make a gateway and see if I > > can null modem over to a PC from my Atari and and have the PC pipe the > > stream down through the null modem connection to the Atari, worth a shot. I know I've got a diskette around here sent to me by someone at CDI that runs Plato on a CGA-equipped 5150. Does this use the same interface or is the Atari version quite different? Cheers, Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Feb 3 14:06:34 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:06:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wanted: Fairchild uA79MG voltage regulator In-Reply-To: <005e01c74751$20a696a0$47611dd1@PC885314341208> References: <005e01c74751$20a696a0$47611dd1@PC885314341208> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Feb 2007, jwolff wrote: > did you find them/ i might have them [responded directly to poster] Talk about an old message too...and I just dug up the power supply that needed one about a week ago. Maybe I'll actually get it repaired now. Sadly, "someone" got rid of the cabinets all the gear was supposed to mount into when I was out of town back in July of last year... Still pisses me off, but at least I'd pulled all the boards and chassis and can still put a working unit together. The cabinets were custom made approx 20"x20"x12" metal cabinets, so I'll probably have to have something made somewhere :/ -Toth From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 3 14:46:24 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:46:24 -0500 Subject: CDC Plato Dial-in? In-Reply-To: <45C46DC3.1699.E99E449@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <45C46DC3.1699.E99E449@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C4F4A0.4090200@atarimuseum.com> Atari's "The Learning Phone" used any of the same dial-in numbers that any other Plato client equipped PC used, so the protocol would've been the same. I will dig around, I actually have the source code fully commented for either the Plato Learning Phone or the Chemical Bank "Pronto" service for the Atari, I need to check. Atari's used their Graphics 8 mode (320 X 192) to create the line drawings and animation. I remember logging in for the first time in 84 or 85 and just floored by being connected to a service with full animation (well past the atascii {Atari Ascii}and ANSI animations of the time.) Meanwhile the only comparison was Compuserve which was purely text and using various bulletin boards, so Plato was just astounding to see on the screen and I was still on a Hayes 300 at the time and speed and response was superb on the screen given how long it took to fill a text based menu on the screen from a BBS or to get a fresh screen of Telenguard on Compuserve. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Feb 2007 at 10:33, Richard wrote: > > >>> tinker around a bit here in the office and make a gateway and see if I >>> can null modem over to a PC from my Atari and and have the PC pipe the >>> stream down through the null modem connection to the Atari, worth a shot. >>> > > I know I've got a diskette around here sent to me by someone at CDI > that runs Plato on a CGA-equipped 5150. Does this use the same > interface or is the Atari version quite different? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 3 14:50:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> <1170488084.24953.120.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20070203124908.C57657@shell.lmi.net> > It all gets down to what one > defines as a "flop." The Exatron Stringy Floppy was a big flop, and certainly the floppiest of all drives. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 3 15:01:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:01:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070203130105.P57657@shell.lmi.net> The Sony SMC-70 had an obviously "Italian Exotic" design, if you're into such. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 3 15:15:50 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:15:50 -0800 Subject: Time-Life "Mathematics" / was Re: OS/2 stillborn References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45C4FB85.C09D0809@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There is, IIRC, a picture of a Stretch in the Time-Life book > "Mathematics". I don't have my copy close at hand, but I _think_ the > one in the photo was being used for weather modelling. > > The photographer set up colored spots to highlight different portions > of the machine in different colors to match up with the descriptive > text. > > I remember reading this book when I was a very small kid. The > computer pictures (and descriptions of core memory, etc.) made a very > strong impression on me. The book would have been published in the > 1964-1965 timeframe (before I was born), and was therefore rather > dated when I would have read it in the early 1970s, but it was still > really neat. > > I guess I can trace my fascination with old machines back to that book. I still have that book too, Ethan. I received it as a little kid in the late 60's and share your sentiments about it. Looking at the double-page spread of Stretch right now: the text says it belonged to the U.S. Weather Bureau ("analyses 90,000 weather reports at once", "addition in 1.5 millionths of a second"). There's also the photo of the front panel of the IBM 704 with a chess board in front of it and indicated to be running a chess-playing program, ... another IBM 70?0 series machine doing moon-flight calculations, ... imposing photos of Claude Shannon (in front of what may be part of Whirlwind) and Kurt Godel, ... John Kemeny having a discussion with some students at Dartmouth, ... etc, etc. From pechter at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 15:35:24 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:35:24 -0500 Subject: Arty computers, sort of In-Reply-To: <011401c74747$33a15650$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45C382B3.14065.B03B0E1@cclist.sydex.com> <011401c74747$33a15650$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Agreed. I always felt it's what the DEC 11/34 should've had as a front panel. Damn shame they went to the two switch boot/halt combination and the programmers panel was nowhere near as slick as the PDP8A one that would cycle address info. The 11/34 series was ok but just plain cheap. Bill On 2/2/07, Jay West wrote: > > Most attractive front panel from an aesthetics standpoint... > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Dg-eclipse.jpg > > The Data General Eclipse (S/130, S/200) front panel is just pretty. > > Jay West > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 3 16:51:07 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:51:07 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <20070203124908.C57657@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> <1170488084.24953.120.camel@linux.site> <20070203124908.C57657@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45C511DB.3030307@atarimuseum.com> That technology was also poorly adapted into the Colecovision Adam systems and was its downfall, add to the fact that if any magnetic media was within 6-8" of the printer which contained the system power supply, once energized it acted nicely as a Bulk Eraser !!! Curt Fred Cisin wrote: >> It all gets down to what one >> defines as a "flop." >> > > The Exatron Stringy Floppy was a big flop, and certainly the floppiest of > all drives. > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 3 16:52:03 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 14:52:03 -0800 Subject: IBM 7030 Message-ID: <45C51213.8010909@bitsavers.org> >> Are there any working 7030s anywhere? > Not a chance. Only a few (<20) were made. CHM has most of one. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/stretch/ Nine were built. There may be a simulator for one in the future. From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sat Feb 3 17:03:59 2007 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles Fox) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:03:59 -0500 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> References: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20070203230410.D49244613@fep7.cogeco.net> At 12:48 PM 2/3/2007, you wrote: >Richard wrote: > >>In article , >> David Griffith writes: >> >> > > >I have a film editor who works for NBC in los angeles. If you would like for >me to contact him, I'll do so and connect you to him. He also collects film >industry memorabilia, and probably can connect you with someone who can >restore nitrate substrate film. If it is 16mm it is not nitrate. > This should be done asap, as it may already >be too far gone to be restored if it is putting off acetic acid fumes. >this is >just one component of decaying substrate, and is the one which erases the >image from the film. > >Remember, the image is not a dye image totally but may contain silver which >is very reactive, and having acid fumes present from decaying >substrate doesn't >make for a long time line to act to save it. > >jim Charles E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 17:27:50 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:27:50 -0500 Subject: govliq: Lockheed Martin disk packs NIB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Model 3904930 > > > I don't recognize these, but they look beefy and they're in the > original cartons it looks like... Will anyone here be bidding on these? If so, I would be interested in one or two. If not, I may bid on them. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 3 17:31:06 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:31:06 -0800 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45C51B3B.A71A442F@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Bradlee wrote: > THe 704 was announced May 7, 1954 and withdrawn April 7, 1960 it was the first binary computer to use > core memory. I hope you mean to say the 704 was the first *IBM* binary machine to use core memory. Whirlwind did so a year or two year earlier (16-bit binary word). (...always sticking up for Whirlwind for some reason) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 3 17:32:59 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:32:59 -0800 Subject: enabled vs loaded / was Re: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C51BAC.24A81E92@cs.ubc.ca> Warren Wolfe wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 13:35 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > I still have several of all three and at the time I would use my > > TRS-80 whenever I was programming. The others were FUN machines made for > > children while the TRS-80 was capable of programming in BASIC, FORTRAN, > > NLOS, FORTH and Assembly to name only the languages that I had enabled on > > my machine. > > "Enabled?" Uh, it APPEARS that you don't understand the concept. > Languages are LOADED on a machine, they're not there waiting to be > "enabled" and then used -- other than the BASIC in ROM on several > machines, the IBM included. Any language could be implemented on either > the Apple or the Commodore, and a wide variety WERE implemented -- I'll > leave it to the outraged fans of both camps to provide a detailed > list... To Warren: Jim's use of the word 'enabled' may not have been typical in the circumstance, but it was perfectly understandable what he meant. The word 'enabled' can be used in a fairly general manner. I had no difficulty discerning condescension in your response above, and I was certainly more impressed by Jim's simple request to avoid it than by your subsequent response. As you wish to be pedantic about the use of words: one does not "load a language" onto a machine, one loads a compiler or interpreter program for a language. And to further make the point: once one has loaded the compiler or interpreter for a language, the machine has then been enabled to 'comprehend' that language. Actually, I would suggest Jim's terminology is really the more technically accurate. If you disagree, you may wish to review or educate yourself about the distinction between a language and it's compiler or interpreter. > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net I have noticed during your tenure-to-date on the list that for someone with "Peace" in your sig, you certainly are (to be kind about it..) argumentative. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 17:55:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:55:42 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <45C511DB.3030307@atarimuseum.com> References: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <801054DA-30B4-4A52-B9A1-B75E97A06D41@neurotica.com> <1170465305.24953.78.camel@linux.site> <1170488084.24953.120.camel@linux.site> <20070203124908.C57657@shell.lmi.net> <45C511DB.3030307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/07, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > That technology was also poorly adapted into the Colecovision Adam > systems and was its downfall, add to the fact that if any magnetic media > was within 6-8" of the printer which contained the system power supply, > once energized it acted nicely as a Bulk Eraser !!! Nice. :-/ > Fred Cisin wrote: > > The Exatron Stringy Floppy was a big flop, and certainly the floppiest of > > all drives. Back in the day, when I had a PET and couldn't afford $2K+ for a C= 2040 disk drive, I really wanted a Stringy Floppy. It was (advertised as) faster than a tape and less expensive than disks. Given the way things shook out, I'm glad I didn't waste my money. I do have a Stringy Floppy drive now - it's embedded in an all-in-one PAL programer. You import the source file to it via serial port, then tell the programmer to compile the source and burn the parts. One can also apparently save files to the Stringy Floppy, but we never did - we just kept the 30 or so PAL files for our various products on the VAX and downloaded them as needed. Block addressable tape _can_ be done well (witness original DECtapes), but done well and done cheap, in this case, don't mix (if they ever do). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:05:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:05:13 -0500 Subject: Time-Life "Mathematics" / was Re: OS/2 stillborn In-Reply-To: <45C4FB85.C09D0809@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> <45C4FB85.C09D0809@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2/3/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > There is, IIRC, a picture of a Stretch in the Time-Life book > > "Mathematics". I don't have my copy close at hand, but I _think_ the > > one in the photo was being used for weather modelling... > > I still have that book too, Ethan. I received it as a little kid in the late > 60's and share your sentiments about it. I have it, too; but I am not sure where it is at the moment.... (*rummage* *rummage*...) Just found a second copy - all of $0.30USD from Half-Price books. This edition is (c) 1963, 1971, U.S. Library of Congress catalog number 63-18983, for the bibliographically curious. > Looking at the double-page spread of Stretch right now Me too, now. Pages 26-27. > ... the text says it > belonged to the U.S. Weather Bureau ("analyses 90,000 weather reports at > once", "addition in 1.5 millionths of a second"). There you go. It seems that the one in the book would be the one documented on the Stretch page recently posted in this thread. > There's also the photo of the front panel of the IBM 704 with a chess board > in front of it and indicated to be running a chess-playing program, I remember the photo. Didn't remember the model of the computer. > ... another IBM 70?0 series machine doing moon-flight calculations, > ... imposing photos of Claude Shannon (in front of what may be part of > Whirlwind) and Kurt Godel, > ... John Kemeny having a discussion with some students at Dartmouth, > ... etc, etc. Yep. When I ran across these (now famous) names years later, they always seemed familiar. The page about bananas for 1101(2) cents a pound took me a bit to wrap my head around, but it came in handy when binary (BCD) clocks were all the rage in the early 1970s. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 18:51:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:51:33 -0800 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <20070203230410.D49244613@fep7.cogeco.net> References: , <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu>, <20070203230410.D49244613@fep7.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <45C4BD95.22211.418180@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2007 at 18:03, Charles Fox wrote: > If it is 16mm it is not nitrate. Right. The vinegar smell should tell you that it's an acetate base. See: http://www.nla.gov.au/anica/about-anica.html For a description of an Australia-based effort to preserve old acetate stock. Cheers, Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 19:03:13 2007 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:03:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 3742 for sale Message-ID: <20070204010313.49291.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please do not reply to me, this is a forwarded email from http://oldcomputers.net ------------------------------------------------ Name: shanon barnett - dentalarts at myway.com Where: cullman, alabama Date: Tue, Jan 30, 2007 - 11:02:47 PST I have a mid 70's IBM 3742 Dual Data Station with the Manuals that came with it also 2 floppies that it uses. Would like to sale. ------------------------------------------------ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 3 18:24:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 00:24:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates In-Reply-To: <45C365FF.17198.A939216@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 2, 7 04:25:35 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Feb 2007 at 23:54, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > > A few days ago I read a claim that floppies are used infrequently > > these days (compared to how often they used to be used) so the > > dust and grime that gets sucked through a drive has longer to > > accumulate before being deposited onto the occasional floppy > > that does make it in there (for a BIOS upgrade or whatever). Incidentally, I heard a news item a few days ago that 'PC World' (a chain of computer shops in the UK) will no longer be selling floppy disks once their current stocks run out. Apparently USB sticks store more data and are more conveneint (well, the first is true, but irrelevant if you only need to store a few kilobytes, the second is definitely false if your machine doesn't have a USB port). > > Horsepucky. > > (I know--I should quit mincing my words and say what I *really* > think :) ) > > My drives get used a lot--and are scrupulously maintained. Modern > 3.5" DSHD media is garbage. I have far better luck with DS2D 3.5". My expeirences exactly. Mind you, many modern floppy drives are poor too (and that's being kind) -- it's interetsing to take a few brand-new \pounds 10.00 drives and stick an alingment disk in them. Some of the ones I tried were out of spec... It may, of course, be the age-old marketroid trick. We need to sell USB sticks/whatever the replacement is, so we'll make sure the old solution (floppy drives) stops working reliably (by selling crap medai), then people will have to upgrade. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 3 18:31:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 00:31:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <20070203003315.66161.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Feb 2, 7 04:33:15 pm Message-ID: > > I have access to a 16mm film reel with sound of an RCA 501 > demonstration. It's not in very good shape though. It has curled some > and smells like vinegar. Is there any way to transfer it without First thought. 16mm film is alomost certain to be 'safety film' [1] and thus have a sellulose acetate (not cellulose nitrate) base. Vinegar == acetic acit. I wonder if, alas, the film base is breaking down. Second thought. Tread carefully. You have what is probably an irreplaceable artefact there. Don't do anything if you're not sure... [1] 16mm was originally an amateur format, and from the start it was regarded as a Bad Thing to let amateurs use the very inflammable cellulose nitrate film. In fact the 16mm gauge was chosen to make it uneconomical to slit down from 35mm film stock to prevent offcuts of professional (and thus possibly cellulose nitrate) film ending up on amaetur spools Somebody else suggested scanning each frame sepatately. Now sound film normally runs at 24 frames per scond, so even if it's only a 5 minute film, that's still 7200 frames to scan. Rather a lot of work. If uou do manage to get it into a projectable state, I'd make at least 2 simulatanous recordings of the sound track. For example, if you're trasnfering to to a computer, that will do as one eecording, but I'd also make an analouge tape recording of the sound, and maybe some other recording too. Then if something goes wrong you've still got _a_ version of the soundtrack. It may not be very good, but it's a lot better than nothing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 3 19:00:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 01:00:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Feb 2, 7 09:52:21 pm Message-ID: > Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest > (just pull off of the M1 line). What happenms with the 'repeat' instructions, LDIR, etc? I seem to remember they keep on re-fetching the opcode, do they assert M1 each time? I'll do it for the HP98x0 (decode one of the states in the 'instruction fetch' microcode routine from the microcode PC lines available on the text connector on the CPU cotnrol PCB, then integrate the output. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 3 18:56:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 00:56:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 2, 7 09:02:16 pm Message-ID: > Interesting. Most people seem to say nice things about > the Apple ]['s design. I'd love to hear some informed > bashing ;) . Could you elaborate some about the > machine's short comings from your perspective? Firstly let me emphasise that my first computer was a TRS-80 Model 1. And I thus do have a soft spot for that machine. Irrational, probably, but there you are. I've got several TRS-80s now (M1, M3, M4, CoCo, M100) and all have proved _very_ reliable. Odd considering other people's expieneces, but I must have replaced perhaps a dozen components _total_ in all said machines. Now, the Apple ][... I had a lot of rpboelsm with it randomly crashing. In the end I took the whole thing apart and stuck an ammeter in the 5V output of the power supply. It turend out that the mainboard (48K RAM) + languge caed + 1 floppy drive drew _more_ than the rated current of the supply as given in the techincal manual If you added more drives, a serial card, etc, it became ridiculous. Much has been said about the Apple ][ disk controlle, and how it's a clever design. Well, a minimal-component design certainly, but I didn't like it. Not having a track0 sensor seemed like a Bad thing for starters (continually banging the head against the stop does not improve the alignemnt!). The drives are Shugart mechanisms with the IMHO poor plastic-cam-with-a-spiral-groove head positioner, and becuase the drives are non-standard you can't use any others (unlike the TRS-80 where you can use any 5.25", 3.5" or 3" drives). But for me the biggest problem was that the Apple couldn't read/write disks from other machines, unlike the TRS-80, which used a WD1771 controller and could handle any single-desity 5.25" disk (I spent many late nights getting it to read the disks from the school's RML380Z computers, which also used 1771 controllers). I didn't like the Apple ][ I/O system. Memory space was tight, but they wasted lots of space with those 'soft switches' and single-bit inputs. It could all have been packed into a few bytes. I am pretty sure the 6821 if not the 6522 was available when the Apple ][ was designed. The first seiral port for the Apple ][ was a bit-banger. It was the only one I had for some time, and it was almost unusable. The TRS-80 used a real UART, and worked. Yes, there were better serial ports avaiable for the Apple later. The Apple text display did have lower case (wich the TRS-80 didn't as standard), but you couldn't mix text and graphics on the same part of the screen. Apple gave you the high-res mode, but working out the addresses gave me headaches (all to save a few chips IMHO!). And colours in the high-res mode were essentially obtained as NTSC artefacts. And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple ][ seems to have been to save a chip if at all possible (provided the machine still works -- just). And yet the kayboard was encoded in hardware. Why? It meant you couldn't implelement a lower case keyboard in software (there are the well-known shift key mods where you run a wire from the shift keyswitch to one of the single-bit inputs on the games connector, which shouldn't have been necessary). Of course I like elegant, simple designs (the HP9100 is a case in point). But the Apple ][ seems to have been a case of cutting too many corners. And I had a lot of problems as a reuslt. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 21:00:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:00:44 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 2, 7 09:02:16 pm, Message-ID: <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 0:56, Tony Duell wrote: > And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple ][ seems to have been > to save a chip if at all possible (provided the machine still works -- > just). And yet the kayboard was encoded in hardware. Why? It meant you > couldn't implelement a lower case keyboard in software (there are the > well-known shift key mods where you run a wire from the shift keyswitch > to one of the single-bit inputs on the games connector, which shouldn't > have been necessary). Thank you for absolving me of being the first to use the term "gutless wonder". :) In a way, I suppose the disk controller was a clever design. But it locked the CPU into 2MHz operation. The use of a simple arithmetic checksum for each sector was not perhaps the most reliable solution either. But the biggest problem is that disk reading and writing required 100% attention from the CPU. On most other computers that used dedicated LSI controllers, the possibility existed for overlapped computation/disk access. Cheers, Chuck From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 21:09:10 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:09:10 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: Well, I wont argue the matter of condescending tone. Its obvious to anyone who reads it. But as to the 7070, You may be wrong for many reasons....assuming that you are wrong....I sincerely hope you are not as it would be very painful for you. You see the 7070 that I worked on was purchased by the US government for a very Top Secret installation so it may have been in use before the public had access to it. Which, by the way, may also be why it was NOT solid state, it was an early model ?? The rest of your post isn't worth my responding to. Again, I hope you are not wrong as I am afraid it would be very difficult for you to accept and I would only want "Peace" for you. On 2/3/07, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > > If it used tubes, then it was NOT a 7070. Period. You claim to be > "absolutely sure" that it was a 7070. If it was, it had no tubes. You > also claim to have been using the computer in 1959 and 1960. The 7070 > was first released in June of 1960, so you clearly were NOT using a 7070 > in 1959, and the first half of 1960. You certainly have SOMETHING wrong > here, absolute surety aside. > > > > > As to enabling the computer, I think loading a program is > enabling...don't > > you? > > > I would also consider it pleasing to load a program into a computer. > Nonetheless, I doubt I would refer to a program load as "pleasing the > computer." > > > > > Please don't talk down to me. I think I have been around computers as > long > > as you and I don't like your condescending tone.. > > > Despite claims to the contrary, it's quite difficult to see "tone" > in written words. Sometimes, text is phrased in such a way as to be > highly suggestive of a certain tone, but if one believes that "tone" to > be indicative, one is acting upon an assumption from complete data, and > has a decent chance of assuming incorrectly. > > What I wrote certainly was not WRITTEN condescendingly. Perhaps you > view yourself as such an authority that any attempt to correct you is > seen as a de facto insult? Your 7070 gaffe, coupled with statements > that the Apple ][ and Commodore 64 were flops, and that Linux came from > Apple, your proposal of the false dichotomy of fun computers versus > machines which could run various programming languages, and your > statement about the TRS-80 having the primary foundation of computer > code, when it was, among other things, based upon a second-generation > computer chip (and ignoring the MASSIVE software base that had been > written for the CP/M environment) could easily lead someone to believe > that you know very little about the computer field. I know it guided me > to that conclusion, although the 7070 information came later. > > At the risk of stating the obvious, it seems to me that the easiest > way to avoid correction is to avoid saying incorrect things. > Personally, I don't mind being corrected, at least when I'm wrong, so > it's not an issue for me. I view a venue such as this one as a great > place to learn things. For me, learning things involves, from time to > time, putting out my view of things, and seeing who salutes it, and who > shoots at it. I can then compare what others are saying, and generally > expand my knowledge. Sometimes, I will even change an opinion, based > upon things others have said or quoted. I do that when I feel my > previous opinions have been wrong. Again, personally, I find being able > to improve my world view to be highly gratifying. YMMV. > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 21:11:10 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:11:10 -0800 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <45C4BD95.22211.418180@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20070203230410.D49244613@fep7.cogeco.net>, <45C4BD95.22211.418180@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C4DE4E.16489.C15424@cclist.sydex.com> A friend informs me that the "cellulose acetate" disease is a problem for museum curators the world over. Not only does it cause photographic materials to decay, but it also causes old fabrics such as "satin" sheets and Hawaiian "aloha" shirts to slowly fall to pieces. Apparently, the acetic acid that's liberated by decomposition is a double-whammy. Not only is it a product of decomposition, but it also serves to hasten the decomposition of the remaining material. Neutralizing or filtering out the acetic acid fumes and storage in cool and dark temperature-and-humidity-controlled lockers seems to be the only affordable preservation measure. Single photographic negatives can have the emulsion carefully stripped off and placed on a polyester substrate, but that seems to be as far as anyone's gone. Wonder if we'll have a similar problem with USB sticks 50 years hence? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 3 21:12:26 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:12:26 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 2, 7 09:02:16 pm, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C54F1A.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > In a way, I suppose the disk controller was a clever design. But it > locked the CPU into 2MHz operation. The use of a simple arithmetic > checksum for each sector was not perhaps the most reliable solution > either. But the biggest problem is that disk reading and writing > required 100% attention from the CPU. On most other computers that > used dedicated LSI controllers, the possibility existed for > overlapped computation/disk access. Like when? I can't think of any small computer or PC that does that? > Cheers, > Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 3 21:16:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:16:26 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C54F1A.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 2, 7 09:02:16 pm, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> <45C54F1A.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0ECF8FF8-E69D-4837-A75A-DCD824027F05@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2007, at 10:12 PM, woodelf wrote: >> In a way, I suppose the disk controller was a clever design. But >> it locked the CPU into 2MHz operation. The use of a simple >> arithmetic checksum for each sector was not perhaps the most >> reliable solution either. But the biggest problem is that disk >> reading and writing required 100% attention from the CPU. On most >> other computers that used dedicated LSI controllers, the >> possibility existed for overlapped computation/disk access. > > Like when? > I can't think of any small computer or PC that does that? The Apple IIfx comes to mind.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 21:38:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:38:54 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C54F1A.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com>, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C54F1A.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45C4E4CE.26013.DABB3E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2007 at 20:12, woodelf wrote: > > Like when? > I can't think of any small computer or PC that does that? Ever use MP/M? We were certainly doing it at Durango in 1979--servicing 5 terminals with a single 3.5 MHz 8085. And there were others. The problem was that with the Apple IIe, you didn't even have the luxury of servicing a comms interrupt without disrupting a disk transfer. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 21:55:36 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:55:36 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > You see the 7070 that I worked on was purchased by the US government for a > very Top Secret installation so it may have been in use before the public > had access to it. Which, by the way, may also be why it was NOT solid > state, it was an early model ?? I can not imagine IBM making a tube version of the 7070, with no history on it. That project would have been something as big as the AN/FSQ-7. The 7070 was a pretty good sized machine. So now you have a bunch of us wondering what machine you used. I still doubt it was a 7070 if it had tubes. I bet it was a 700 series machine of some sort. It could have been a 707 - IBM often gave oddball type numbers out to semicustom or custom (AKA RPQ) machines. Have you glanced at the IBM history pages? They have a gallery of most of their major machines - perhaps you can spot it. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 22:26:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:26:37 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Feb 2, 7 09:52:21 pm, Message-ID: <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 1:00, Tony Duell wrote: > What happenms with the 'repeat' instructions, LDIR, etc? I seem to > remember they keep on re-fetching the opcode, do they assert M1 each time? Yes indeed it does. The repeated operations run the CPU through RNI and decode each time. Which is why the Z80 gained most of its speed over the 8085 by having one fewer clock in an instruction cycle, not by the added instructions. The same sort of behavior exhibits itself on some of the x86 CPUs--where: l1: mov al,ds:[si] dec cx mov es:[di],al jnz l1 runs about as fast as rep movsb (and, in cases, somewhat faster). On those same CPUs, replacing the dec cx/jnz with a loop instruction will actually slow things down. That doesn't mean that an analogue meter wouldn't indicate variations. On a Z80, the instruction length can vary from 1 to 5 (IIRC) bytes. Given additional cycles for memory and I/O space references, the instruction issue rate can vary quite a bit. Which may have absolutely nothing to do with how much useful work the CPU's actually doing. Cheers, Chuck From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 22:33:49 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:33:49 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070201103922.012b9250@mail.30below.com> <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: About all I can remember on its physical image (and even this may be flawed) was that the window behind which the "solid state memory" resided was on the lower right perhaps in the last rack to the right. I vaguely remember that there were at least 3 and possibly many many more racks. There were also at least four full sized racks that contained Ampex tape decks that were very finicky and often had to be restarted after they would loose their tension. There were miles and miles of wiring under the floor of the room. There was also a punched card reader added toward the end of my tenure with the machine that greatly improved the programming ease However, I would think that it is unlikely I would have forgotten the phrase, "seven oh seventy" Its a catchy phrase and has stuck with me for almost fifty years. We didn't call it the "seventy seventy" or any other sequence of words, just the "Seven Oh Seventy". However, what it looked like has pretty much been erased and blended with the many other computers of similar size that I worked on. I do remember back in the early ninety's seeing a book on Cold War espionage that had an article on it and referenced several aspects of it that I remembered at the time. Yes it was a BIG machine by todays standards and we had 30 tons of air conditioning to keep the room cool because of all the tubes. If it had been solid state, all that air conditioning would not have been needed. On 2/3/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > You see the 7070 that I worked on was purchased by the US government for > a > > very Top Secret installation so it may have been in use before the > public > > had access to it. Which, by the way, may also be why it was NOT solid > > state, it was an early model ?? > > I can not imagine IBM making a tube version of the 7070, with no > history on it. That project would have been something as big as the > AN/FSQ-7. The 7070 was a pretty good sized machine. > > So now you have a bunch of us wondering what machine you used. I still > doubt it was a 7070 if it had tubes. I bet it was a 700 series machine > of some sort. It could have been a 707 - IBM often gave oddball type > numbers out to semicustom or custom (AKA RPQ) machines. Have you > glanced at the IBM history pages? They have a gallery of most of their > major machines - perhaps you can spot it. > > -- > Will > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 3 22:38:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:38:46 -0600 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Feb 2, 7 09:52:21 pm, <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C56356.10306@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The same sort of behavior exhibits itself > on some of the x86 CPUs--where: > > l1: > mov al,ds:[si] > dec cx > mov es:[di],al > jnz l1 > > runs about as fast as rep movsb (and, in cases, somewhat faster). On > those same CPUs, replacing the dec cx/jnz with a loop instruction > will actually slow things down. Could you clarify which 808x CPUs in particular you're referencing in the above? There isn't a single case from 808x to 486 where that code will beat rep movsb. Were you referring to Pentiums and higher? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 3 22:53:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:53:54 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C56356.10306@oldskool.org> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com>, <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C56356.10306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C4F662.14689.11F64DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2007 at 22:38, Jim Leonard wrote: > Could you clarify which 808x CPUs in particular you're referencing in > the above? There isn't a single case from 808x to 486 where that code > will beat rep movsb. Were you referring to Pentiums and higher? Just so--when x86 went superscalar, there was a significant difference in the execution rate of V-pipe instructions as compared to the more complicated CISC-type ones such as MOVSB. Which is also why the DEC/JNZ turns out ot faster than the LOOP. I seem to recall a DDJ article around the time of the introduction of the Pentium that warned about this. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Feb 3 22:56:07 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:56:07 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 2, 7 09:02:16 pm, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Feb 2007 at 0:56, Tony Duell wrote: > >> And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple ][ seems to have been >> to save a chip if at all possible (provided the machine still works -- >> just). And yet the kayboard was encoded in hardware. Why? It meant you >> couldn't implelement a lower case keyboard in software (there are the >> well-known shift key mods where you run a wire from the shift keyswitch >> to one of the single-bit inputs on the games connector, which shouldn't >> have been necessary). > > Thank you for absolving me of being the first to use the term > "gutless wonder". :) > > In a way, I suppose the disk controller was a clever design. But it > locked the CPU into 2MHz operation. The use of a simple arithmetic > checksum for each sector was not perhaps the most reliable solution > either. But the biggest problem is that disk reading and writing > required 100% attention from the CPU. On most other computers that > used dedicated LSI controllers, the possibility existed for > overlapped computation/disk access. > > Cheers, > Chuck The northstar disk controller and many similar ones required the processor to suck in each byte anyway, so there was no chance there of the CPU doing something productive. Now look at the chip count of the nortstar controller board: http://www.sol20.org/manuals/nstar_MDS-A-D.pdf vs. the apple II disk controller (scroll down a bit): http://www.8bit-museum.de/docs/apple3b.htm# By comparison, the apple II controller is brilliant. Yes, there existed disk controllers with DMA, but those were more complex and cost a whole lot more in 1977. Besides, the Apple II had a great expansion bus, and some enterprising company could have plopped a 177x disk controller in machine at the point it made sense, but apparently it never did as its market was happy with what apple offered. The disk controller didn't lock the CPU into 2 MHz operation -- the CPU was 1 MHz. :-) Besides, the apple disk controller was a point solution for a point in time. Later Apples had higher speed clocks and could read/write the old disks. Obviously this inexpensive solution didn't preclude decoupling the CPU speed later once VLSI made it practical to do so. As for the apple II minimalism -- saving a chip here and there -- indeed, it is a toy compared to, say, the the way HP would do it. But then the HP would have cost 10x as much. Let's look at contemporaries (1977 micros). The Sol-20 had 64x16 text, and unless you polled the hblank signal and limited yourself to poking one character per 50 uS, you'd get snow on the screen. There were others that had the snow problem as well (eg, exidy sorcerer). The TRS-80 didn't have the snow problem, but it too had a 64x16 text display. The PET (which I never used) also had character graphics of the most pathetic sort. Now look at the apple. Yeah, crappy 40x24 text mode, but they were in color and, for the time, unheard of bitmapped graphics modes in a microcomputer. By running the DRAM at 2x the CPU cycle time and locking it to the video rate, all graphics could be written real-time with no snow and no wait-states. Other than DRAM and the CPU, all cheapo TTL. Tony said: >> And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple ][ seems to have >> been to save a chip if at all possible Yes and no. They spent some chips to give the machine great expandability and color, bitmapped graphics. On the other hand, wherever Woz could save a chip (or ten), even if it meant an oddball mapping of memory to screen, was done to save cost and keep the board size down. It is fantasy to think that cost wasn't one of the most important factors in a successful home computer. I admire the design greatly for what it was and for the time it was done. The fact the machine came standard with full schematics and a commented disassembly of the ROM should not go unappreciated with this group. The machine has character, the good kind, in spades. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 3 23:05:11 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:05:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 2, 7 09:02:16 pm, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20070203210327.M73305@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 3 Feb 2007, Jim Battle wrote: > By comparison, the apple II controller is brilliant. Yes, there existed > disk controllers with DMA, but those were more complex and cost a whole > lot more in 1977. Besides, the Apple II had a great expansion bus, and > some enterprising company could have plopped a 177x disk controller in > machine at the point it made sense, but apparently it never did as its > market was happy with what apple offered. Sorrento Valley Associates? From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 3 23:30:13 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 21:30:13 -0800 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> References: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45C56F65.4020000@sbcglobal.net> Thanks for all the suggestions. This film definitely needs professional attention and may be too far gone to save, but I will try. I've contacted the National Film Preservation board, and also SMPTE for their ideas., but would still be interested in talking to others. Jim, please contact your film editor and have him contact me, I get down to LA all the time so could bring the film down there to have someone evaluate it if I can't find someone local. One problem is I don't know what the film actually contains, if it's really interesting at all. It needs to be viewed, even if it's one frame at a time on a Movieola type machine, to see what it's actually about. Could be just an ad for RCA that mentions the 501, but with the label "RCA 501 demonstration" on the cover it's sure worth a look. Bob National Film Preservation Board jim wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> In article , >> David Griffith writes: >> >> >> > > > I have a film editor who works for NBC in los angeles. If you would > like for > me to contact him, I'll do so and connect you to him. He also > collects film > industry memorabilia, and probably can connect you with someone who can > restore nitrate substrate film. This should be done asap, as it may > already > be too far gone to be restored if it is putting off acetic acid > fumes. this is > just one component of decaying substrate, and is the one which erases the > image from the film. > > Remember, the image is not a dye image totally but may contain silver > which > is very reactive, and having acid fumes present from decaying > substrate doesn't > make for a long time line to act to save it. > > jim > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 4 00:00:10 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 00:00:10 -0600 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C4F662.14689.11F64DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com>, <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C56356.10306@oldskool.org> <45C4F662.14689.11F64DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C5766A.8070100@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Feb 2007 at 22:38, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Could you clarify which 808x CPUs in particular you're referencing in >> the above? There isn't a single case from 808x to 486 where that code >> will beat rep movsb. Were you referring to Pentiums and higher? > > Just so--when x86 went superscalar, there was a significant > difference in the execution rate of V-pipe instructions as compared > to the more complicated CISC-type ones such as MOVSB. Which is also > why the DEC/JNZ turns out ot faster than the LOOP. Okay, just making sure. On 486, it was break-even; on Pentium, it was indeed faster for most cases to pair instructions. (Although, if you wanted to get fancy, you could copy memory even faster by loading 64 bits at a time into the FPU registers, then storing them out...) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 00:16:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 01:16:14 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On 2/3/07, Jim Battle wrote: > Let's look at contemporaries (1977 micros). The Sol-20 had 64x16 text... > The TRS-80...had a 64x16 text display. The PET (which I never used) > also had character graphics of the most pathetic sort. I would hardly call the PET character graphics "pathetic". It's true that dozens of pre-defined 8x8 pixel character blocks can't compare in rendering quality to a similar-sized mono bitmapped display, but back in the day, folks were quite creative with their use of the available characters. Sticking to shuffling bytes around rather than calculating pixel positions allows one to get some fast graphics on a 1MHz 6502, but it's true that true bitmapped graphics are much flashier than any character graphics. When I was using a PET at the library and sneaking time on the TRS-80 Model I at the local Radio Shack, one thing I never did on the TRS-80 was graphics. With the 6-blocks-per-character-position lo-res graphics, the TRS-80 could manage 128x48 individually addressable "pixels". By comparison, the PET character set had a pre-defined set of images that also allowed one to subdivide one character position into, in this case, four low-res "pixels". Since the early PETs had a 40x25 screen, that translated into 80x50 low-res pixels - obviously not as wide as the TRS-80, but taller, and with *square pixels*. The *excellent* machine-language Space Invaders game from those days used these chunky graphics to great effect to slide the Invaders from side to side and top to bottom. Another handy little feature of the PET character set was the ability to draw horizontal or vertical bargraphs with a much finer resolution. The characters were already there to draw a single "pixel" tall by 8 pixel wide line, two pixels tall, three, etc., up to 8, and the same for left-right. Coupled with curved and square box corners, one could put together a rather nicely formatted textual UI for virtual gauges, etc. > Now look at the apple. Yeah, crappy 40x24 text mode, but they were in > color and, for the time, unheard of bitmapped graphics modes in a > microcomputer. All true there, but having programmed the Apple II for a living for a couple of years, I can say that the hardware shorcuts Woz took made the graphics a bit strange to deal with. Among other oddments, only 7 bits per byte in graphics RAM could turn into a pixel, converting a 40x24 screen to 280x192 mono pixels, or 140x192 colored pixels (color was really strange on an Apple II since it depended on phase shifting pixels that were too small for an NTSC monitor to resolve individually, resulting in a) color fringing, and b) *6* colors due to there being two flavors of white and black pixels (that's where the 8th bit went - to add or remove an additional 1/4 phase shift to that byte - leading to strange boundary effects). Because of the "only 4 colors per 7-pixel-wide-region" restriction, it was common to stick to only the black/white/green/purple or black/white/red/blue palettes to minimize the strange fringing one got trying to pass shapes with one palette over shapes from the other palette. So, yes... the Apple II had color, and it had bitmapped graphics, which were unique in the micro world in 1977, but due to how they were implemented, one could *not* turn on arbitrary color pixels without first considering where they were on the screen and what else was going on around them (one _could_ turn on each and every mono pixel of the 280x192, but applications writers tended to focus heavily on color graphics, not mono graphics - "Bolo", an overhead-view tank/maze game being one counter-example that I can dredge up right now). I don't know which home computer was *the* first to be able to set any pixel on the screen to any desired color, but I'd have to think that few famous ones did it before the Atari 400/800, a few years after the Apple/TRS-80/PET days. All that having been said, though, the Apple II was an amazing design, it was quite popular, and, through the Apple IIe and Apple IIgs, stuck around, warts and all, for a long, long time. Longer than the TRS-80, and longer than the PET, its true contemporaries. Even though the remembered "my computer is better than yours " battles might have been between the Atari 800, the Apple II, and the C-64, only one of those machines was around in 1977. The others had faded away. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 00:28:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:28:53 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com>, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45C50CA5.13909.1765700@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2007 at 22:56, Jim Battle wrote: > Let's look at contemporaries (1977 micros). The Sol-20 had 64x16 > text, and unless you polled the hblank signal and limited yourself to > poking one character per 50 uS, you'd get snow on the screen. There > were others that had the snow problem as well (eg, exidy sorcerer). > The TRS-80 didn't have the snow problem, but it too had a 64x16 text > display. The PET (which I never used) also had character graphics of > the most pathetic sort. The DIsk II didn't come out until 78. The 1977 Apple had only a casette interface. Remember that OSI (from around the same time) used a 6850 UART for the same purpose, yet OSI didn't get any acclaim for the "genius" of the controller. Instead, it got slammed for the incompatibility of the floppies. A major part of Apple lore, it seems to me, is the mystique. Cheers, Chuck > > Now look at the apple. Yeah, crappy 40x24 text mode, but they were in > color and, for the time, unheard of bitmapped graphics modes in a > microcomputer. By running the DRAM at 2x the CPU cycle time and locking > it to the video rate, all graphics could be written real-time with no > snow and no wait-states. Other than DRAM and the CPU, all cheapo TTL. > > Tony said: > >> And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple ][ seems to have > >> been to save a chip if at all possible > > Yes and no. They spent some chips to give the machine great > expandability and color, bitmapped graphics. On the other hand, > wherever Woz could save a chip (or ten), even if it meant an oddball > mapping of memory to screen, was done to save cost and keep the board > size down. It is fantasy to think that cost wasn't one of the most > important factors in a successful home computer. > > I admire the design greatly for what it was and for the time it was > done. The fact the machine came standard with full schematics and a > commented disassembly of the ROM should not go unappreciated with this > group. The machine has character, the good kind, in spades. > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Feb 4 00:26:43 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 04:26:43 -0200 Subject: Stamp collectors? References: Message-ID: <02e201c74826$00e36c50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > In the UK, the somewhat perjorative term 'stamp collector' is used to > describe somebody who just wants to amass a certain type of object (such > as HP calculators) without ever using them, or understanding them, or... I think I have an interesting history about that... I knew a guy who had some of the most rare and most expensive MSX computers on earth. He had thousands of dollars in MSX stuff and never used anything. Now he is selling everything for profit. But me...I have some 15 MSX computers. I don't use all of them, most of them are fully functional units as "reserves" since I do lots of hardware hacking and it is nice to have (cheap) spares for hacking. Most of my playing can be seen at www.tabajara-labs.com.br (sorry, all in portuguese, but nice photos anyway :oD). Sometimes is good to have many of a unit. But to show it up on shelf is not kosher :o( From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 00:52:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:52:44 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C5766A.8070100@oldskool.org> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com>, <45C4F662.14689.11F64DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C5766A.8070100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C5123C.1547.18C2C0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 0:00, Jim Leonard wrote: > Okay, just making sure. On 486, it was break-even; on Pentium, it was > indeed faster for most cases to pair instructions. (Although, if you > wanted to get fancy, you could copy memory even faster by loading 64 > bits at a time into the FPU registers, then storing them out...) Yeah, but then you wouldn't have code that would run on *any* x86. To be fair, however, in a bunch of my code, I did have a routine that started out: mov Is_x86,0 ; assume neither 286 nor 386 push sp pop ax cmp ax,sp ; see if the same jne Init2 ; if not 2/386 inc Is_x86 ; it's at least a 286 .486 sgdt scratch ; stash the GDT .8086 mov al,byte ptr scratch+5 test al,al jnz Init2 inc Is_x86 ; at least a 386 Init2: so I could make use of those 32 bit registers for moving data around and calculating CRCs and such. That's one of the awful inequities of "improved" CPUs; something like processor social economics. A trick used to exploit a faster CPU will often run more slowly on the lower CPU than if you had left in the non-tricky code. So the folks with older CPUs sometimes get penalized additionally through no fault of their own. On the CDC 6000 machines it was like that. The "Count the one's" instruction on the fast 6600 ran in something like 8 cycles, while on the slower 6400, it took 68 (slower than even a floating divide). So a clever algorithm that used the pop count instruction on the 6600 really smoked; but on the 6400, it could make the speed disparity between the two systems look much worse. Cheers, Chuck From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sun Feb 4 01:33:39 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 02:33:39 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702021638.l12Gc5Pu008906@floodgap.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:38 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers > > There was Software Automatic Mouth for the C64 (SAM), > > Wasn't that a speech synthesizer, rather than a recognition system? >Correct. I still have a Hearsay 2000 for the Commodore 64 that still works fine. It does voice synthesis and basic programmable voice recognition. Greg From buseyl at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 02:05:40 2007 From: buseyl at yahoo.com (Liam Busey) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 00:05:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <819281.88611.qm@web53206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <794805.20707.qm@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote wrote: > > Interesting. Most people seem to say nice things > about > > the Apple ]['s design. I'd love to hear some > informed > > bashing ;) . Could you elaborate some about the > > machine's short comings from your perspective? > > Firstly let me emphasise that my first computer was > a > TRS-80 Model 1. And > I thus do have a soft spot for that machine. > Irrational, probably, but > there you are. I've got several TRS-80s now (M1, M3, > M4, CoCo, M100) and > all have proved _very_ reliable. Odd considering > other > people's > expieneces, but I must have replaced perhaps a dozen > components _total_ > in all said machines. I see nothing wrong with that. The Tandy machines seemed like decent computers for the money. I wouldn't mind picking up a TRS-80 someday. > Now, the Apple ][... > I had a lot of rpboelsm with it randomly crashing. > In > the end I took the > whole thing apart and stuck an ammeter in the 5V > output of the power > supply. It turend out that the mainboard (48K RAM) + > languge caed + 1 > floppy drive drew _more_ than the rated current of > the > supply as given in > the techincal manual If you added more drives, a > serial card, etc, it > became ridiculous. Strange, I haven't noticed any stability problems with my ][ and ][+ under similar loads. Still, an unstable machine is unlikely to impress. > Much has been said about the Apple ][ disk > controlle, > and how it's a > clever design. Well, a minimal-component design > certainly, but I didn't > like it. Not having a track0 sensor seemed like a > Bad > thing for starters > (continually banging the head against the stop does > not improve the > alignemnt!). The drives are Shugart mechanisms with > the IMHO poor > plastic-cam-with-a-spiral-groove head positioner, > and > becuase the drives > are non-standard you can't use any others (unlike > the > TRS-80 where you > can use any 5.25", 3.5" or 3" drives). But for me > the > biggest problem was > that the Apple couldn't read/write disks from other > machines, unlike the > TRS-80, which used a WD1771 controller and could > handle any single-desity > 5.25" disk (I spent many late nights getting it to > read the disks from > the school's RML380Z computers, which also used 1771 > controllers). What can I say? The Disk II, either you love it or you hate it. :) To be fair though, the Apple Disk II system was not the only game in town. While they weren't common, you could get a 3rd party 8" MFM floppy system if you wanted to. Would you recoil in horror if I told you that some companies made single sided 40 track 3" (Amdisk) and double sided 80 track 5.25" (Rana Elite 3) drives for use with the original Disk II controller? ;) > I didn't like the Apple ][ I/O system. Memory space > was tight, but they > wasted lots of space with those 'soft switches' and > single-bit inputs. It > could all have been packed into a few bytes. I am > pretty sure the 6821 if > not the 6522 was available when the Apple ][ was > designed. Fair enough. > The first seiral port for the Apple ][ was a > bit-banger. It was the only > one I had for some time, and it was almost unusable. > The TRS-80 used a > real UART, and worked. Yes, there were better serial > ports avaiable for > the Apple later. Was this an early serial board or were you using the game port? I've always enjoyed the luxury of a 6551 equiped board (Super Serial Card II). I think Woz was allergic to peripheral chips in the beginning. :) > The Apple text display did have lower case (wich the > TRS-80 didn't as > standard), but you couldn't mix text and graphics on > the same part of the > screen. Apple gave you the high-res mode, but > working > out the addresses > gave me headaches (all to save a few chips IMHO!). > And > colours in the > high-res mode were essentially obtained as NTSC > artefacts. The TRS-80 graphic characters are pretty neat. The stock Apple character generator was certainly poor in terms of graphics characters. Heck, it didn't have lower case characters! Needless to say, soft hires character generators were a pretty common project. It would have been nice to have had one in the firmware. The hires mode is somewhat byzantine and it was indeed that way to save chips! :) Fortunately, it's not too bad to work with if you use a lookup table to untangle the memory map. I have no doubt it has turned off plenty of people though. The colors are NTSC artifacts! :) I thought that was a neat hack. How did they deal with that in PAL land? > And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple > ][ > seems to have been > to save a chip if at all possible (provided the > machine still works -- > just). Bingo! Legend has it that Woz's aesthetic ideal was to bum a design down to as few chips as possible. Almost a Madman Muntz I suppose. Methinks you're not a fan of Clive Sinclair either? :) And yet the kayboard was encoded in hardware. > Why? It meant you > couldn't implelement a lower case keyboard in > software > (there are the > well-known shift key mods where you run a wire from > the shift keyswitch > to one of the single-bit inputs on the games > connector, which shouldn't > have been necessary). This is a good point. My guess would be that Woz designed the Apple II as just a naked board, kind of like the Apple I. Apple sold you the motherboard and it was up to you to find a power supply , keyboard, and housing. Apple did offer the ][ that way early on. > Of course I like elegant, simple designs (the HP9100 > is a case in point). > But the Apple ][ seems to have been a case of > cutting > too many corners. > And I had a lot of problems as a reuslt. > > -tony Thanks for your input Tony. While I've never had reliability problems with my ][/ ][+ I think I understand where you're coming from. I like the Apple because I feel it's a machine with interesting capabilities yet made from a small amount of simple parts. It's a machine I can both grasp and enjoy. What's your opinion of the BBC Micro? I've never had the pleasure of using one, but on paper it sounds a lot like a fast Apple II with a pair of 6522, 6845, hardware ACIA, 1770 FDC, and enhanced basic. Liam Busey ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Feb 4 02:17:31 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 02:17:31 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C50CA5.13909.1765700@cclist.sydex.com> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com>, <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> <45C50CA5.13909.1765700@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C5969B.2010304@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Feb 2007 at 22:56, Jim Battle wrote: > >> Let's look at contemporaries (1977 micros). The Sol-20 had 64x16 >> text, and unless you polled the hblank signal and limited yourself to >> poking one character per 50 uS, you'd get snow on the screen. There >> were others that had the snow problem as well (eg, exidy sorcerer). >> The TRS-80 didn't have the snow problem, but it too had a 64x16 text >> display. The PET (which I never used) also had character graphics of >> the most pathetic sort. > > The DIsk II didn't come out until 78. The 1977 Apple had only a > casette interface. Remember that OSI (from around the same time) > used a 6850 UART for the same purpose, yet OSI didn't get any acclaim > for the "genius" of the controller. Instead, it got slammed for the > incompatibility of the floppies. > > A major part of Apple lore, it seems to me, is the mystique. > > Cheers, > Chuck ... The Compucolor II (1977) also used a serial chip (TMS5501) for streaming bits to/from the disk. Furthermore, they used an undocumented test mode of the chip to make it operate at the bit rate they needed (otherwise it tops out at 9600 baud). The disk format is single sided, and gets about 50 KB per disk. I'd say using the serial controller chip in a floppy application is clever as well. The Compucolor design doesn't use DMA either and the CPU is very busy keeping the chip fed. Compucolor/OSI didn't have nearly the success of the Apple II, so accolades are harder to come by. Over the past few years I've had a couple OSI machines go through my hands before I traded them for other things I cared about more. The industrial design of the C1P was on par with that of a hobby project. According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Scientific Most of the OSI machines, including the ones with disk drives, were introduced in 1979. From rollerton at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 02:35:45 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 02:35:45 -0600 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <45C56F65.4020000@sbcglobal.net> References: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> <45C56F65.4020000@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2789adda0702040035h1fa4841dsd50f7c9ba797f4f3@mail.gmail.com> I have a pretty large connection of family 16mm film dating from the early 30's up thru 1970, and have been busy with conservation projects for the past year. Acetate film that exhibits the "VS" symtoms will shrink over time and start to curl, in the extream the spacing and size of the sprocket holes will change and this will make it diffucult to impossible to project. A good projector can tollerate quite a bit of curling and still put on an acceptable show. There are many professional shops that will do a Telecine conversion of film to dvd (or tape if you perfer). Google. The going price is between .20 and .40 (usd) per foot. Cleani ng is ususally included. Fixing bad splices, torn sprocket holes, and replacing leader are usually extra charges. There was a boom in home film conversion to Tape about 20 years ago, most of this was at the local 1 hr photo place and pretty poorly done by projecting into a mirror and pointing a camcorder at it, if any of these fast shops are still around you probably want to avoid them. There are also places that will actually digitize the film frame by frame using a modified projector, camera and computer. If the film is acctualy yours then you would probably want to do some conservation in addition to getting it converted. There are some good web sites out there to get and education and some of the points have been mentioned already. In summary from what I have learned and use: - If it has signs of VS you need to segragate that film from all others as the acid vapors stimulate continued reaction in the reel and in any reels near it. Much like ripening fruit. - Store the reel in the open air. Don't keep it in a sealed can but rather where its in fresh clean air so the vapors can disapate. There are newer stable plastic storage cans that incorporate venting in their design. - The reaction is nearly stopped at cool & dry tempratures and accelerated with warm and moist conditions. I don't have the exact temprature (check Kodak web) but its around the low 40Fs as the optimal for long term storage. - Clean the print, and then consider soaking it for a week or more in Filmrenew and then clean it a couple more times and let it dry for a week. This will do a lot to slow the damage, lube the film and will make it somewhat more flexible, Running the film thru a couple of passes on the rewinder is recommended to relax the film. Filmrenew is considered by many to be the most gentle and least toxic cleaner. It is a petro solvent, seemingly to me to be based on Naptha. - Remove any tape (scotch or masking) and its adheisive. Some solvents can be used for this but you want to make sure you remove all traces of this before you store the film. check both ends of the film for wrong tape. Note that on acetate film the usual splice was with cement, but later film was not acetate and they used a special tape splice. Your film may have tape splices, as long as its the right tape its ok to leave them although some will say to replace them with cement splices for permenance. Film conservation has its differing opinions too. - Wind the film firmly but not tightly onto its reel (prefer metal reel) and make sure the film is even on the sides with nothing sticking up that could get piched or bent over. Once its on the reel, dont pull on the film to tighten it as this will drag it over itself and perhaps scratch something. - Kodak sells a product called a "Micro Sieve" which is a fabric bag filled with an absorbant chemical that can be placed between the reel and its storage can to absorbe the acid vapors and moisture. Check the Kodak web. This may be over the top for most VS problems. If you clean, and air it out, and keep it cool and dry it will probably go another 20+ years and still be projectable. I would be happy to talk with you more about this off the list if you like. bob. On 2/3/07, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Thanks for all the suggestions. This film definitely needs professional > attention and may be too far gone to save, but I will try. > I've contacted the National Film Preservation board, and also SMPTE for > their ideas., but would still be interested in talking to others. Jim, > please contact your film editor and have him contact me, I get down to > LA all the time so could bring the film down there to have someone > evaluate it if I can't find someone local. > > One problem is I don't know what the film actually contains, if it's > really interesting at all. It needs to be viewed, even if it's one frame > at a time on a Movieola type machine, to see what it's actually about. > Could be just an ad for RCA that mentions the 501, but with the label > "RCA 501 demonstration" on the cover it's sure worth a look. > > Bob > > > > > National Film Preservation Board > > jim wrote: > > > Richard wrote: > > > >> In article , > >> David Griffith writes: > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > I have a film editor who works for NBC in los angeles. If you would > > like for > > me to contact him, I'll do so and connect you to him. He also > > collects film > > industry memorabilia, and probably can connect you with someone who can > > restore nitrate substrate film. This should be done asap, as it may > > already > > be too far gone to be restored if it is putting off acetic acid > > fumes. this is > > just one component of decaying substrate, and is the one which erases > the > > image from the film. > > > > Remember, the image is not a dye image totally but may contain silver > > which > > is very reactive, and having acid fumes present from decaying > > substrate doesn't > > make for a long time line to act to save it. > > > > jim > > > From rollerton at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 02:36:47 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 02:36:47 -0600 Subject: How to archive a 16mm film of an RCA 501 In-Reply-To: <2789adda0702040035h1fa4841dsd50f7c9ba797f4f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <45C4CB0B.6050803@msm.umr.edu> <45C56F65.4020000@sbcglobal.net> <2789adda0702040035h1fa4841dsd50f7c9ba797f4f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0702040036l48d00221ud794f7d6ac4d3f42@mail.gmail.com> (opps, sorry for the spelling goofs, hit send to quick) On 2/4/07, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > I have a pretty large connection of family 16mm film dating from the > early 30's up thru 1970, and have been busy with conservation projects for > the past year. > > Acetate film that exhibits the "VS" symtoms will shrink over time and > start to curl, in the extream the spacing and size of the sprocket holes > will change and this will make it diffucult to impossible to project. A > good projector can tollerate quite a bit of curling and still put on an > acceptable show. > > There are many professional shops that will do a Telecine conversion of > film to dvd (or tape if you perfer). Google. The going price is between > .20 and .40 (usd) per foot. Cleani ng is ususally included. Fixing bad > splices, torn sprocket holes, and replacing leader are usually extra > charges. There was a boom in home film conversion to Tape about 20 years > ago, most of this was at the local 1 hr photo place and pretty poorly done > by projecting into a mirror and pointing a camcorder at it, if any of these > fast shops are still around you probably want to avoid them. > > There are also places that will actually digitize the film frame by frame > using a modified projector, camera and computer. > > If the film is acctualy yours then you would probably want to do some > conservation in addition to getting it converted. There are some good web > sites out there to get and education and some of the points have been > mentioned already. In summary from what I have learned and use: > > - If it has signs of VS you need to segragate that film from all others as > the acid vapors stimulate continued reaction in the reel and in any reels > near it. Much like ripening fruit. > > - Store the reel in the open air. Don't keep it in a sealed can but > rather where its in fresh clean air so the vapors can disapate. There are > newer stable plastic storage cans that incorporate venting in their design. > > - The reaction is nearly stopped at cool & dry tempratures and accelerated > with warm and moist conditions. I don't have the exact temprature (check > Kodak web) but its around the low 40Fs as the optimal for long term > storage. > > - Clean the print, and then consider soaking it for a week or more in > Filmrenew and then clean it a couple more times and let it dry for a week. > This will do a lot to slow the damage, lube the film and will make it > somewhat more flexible, Running the film thru a couple of passes on the > rewinder is recommended to relax the film. Filmrenew is considered by many > to be the most gentle and least toxic cleaner. It is a petro solvent, > seemingly to me to be based on Naptha. > > - Remove any tape (scotch or masking) and its adheisive. Some solvents > can be used for this but you want to make sure you remove all traces of this > before you store the film. check both ends of the film for wrong tape. > Note that on acetate film the usual splice was with cement, but later film > was not acetate and they used a special tape splice. Your film may have > tape splices, as long as its the right tape its ok to leave them although > some will say to replace them with cement splices for permenance. Film > conservation has its differing opinions too. > > - Wind the film firmly but not tightly onto its reel (prefer metal reel) > and make sure the film is even on the sides with nothing sticking up that > could get piched or bent over. Once its on the reel, dont pull on the film > to tighten it as this will drag it over itself and perhaps scratch > something. > > - Kodak sells a product called a "Micro Sieve" which is a fabric bag > filled with an absorbant chemical that can be placed between the reel and > its storage can to absorbe the acid vapors and moisture. Check the Kodak > web. This may be over the top for most VS problems. > > > If you clean, and air it out, and keep it cool and dry it will probably go > another 20+ years and still be projectable. > > I would be happy to talk with you more about this off the list if you > like. > > bob. > > > On 2/3/07, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the suggestions. This film definitely needs professional > > attention and may be too far gone to save, but I will try. > > I've contacted the National Film Preservation board, and also SMPTE for > > their ideas., but would still be interested in talking to others. Jim, > > please contact your film editor and have him contact me, I get down to > > LA all the time so could bring the film down there to have someone > > evaluate it if I can't find someone local. > > > > One problem is I don't know what the film actually contains, if it's > > really interesting at all. It needs to be viewed, even if it's one frame > > at a time on a Movieola type machine, to see what it's actually about. > > Could be just an ad for RCA that mentions the 501, but with the label > > "RCA 501 demonstration" on the cover it's sure worth a look. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > National Film Preservation Board > > > > jim wrote: > > > > > Richard wrote: > > > > > >> In article < Pine.GSO.4.55.0702022327210.8730 at helios.cs.csubak.edu>, > > >> David Griffith writes: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > I have a film editor who works for NBC in los angeles. If you would > > > like for > > > me to contact him, I'll do so and connect you to him. He also > > > collects film > > > industry memorabilia, and probably can connect you with someone who > > can > > > restore nitrate substrate film. This should be done asap, as it may > > > already > > > be too far gone to be restored if it is putting off acetic acid > > > fumes. this is > > > just one component of decaying substrate, and is the one which erases > > the > > > image from the film. > > > > > > Remember, the image is not a dye image totally but may contain silver > > > which > > > is very reactive, and having acid fumes present from decaying > > > substrate doesn't > > > make for a long time line to act to save it. > > > > > > jim > > > > > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Feb 3 06:42:34 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:42:34 +0000 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <45C3182A.5898.9639045@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45C37902.7090502@oldskool.org> <45C3182A.5898.9639045@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C4833A.3050704@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2007 at 11:46, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Richard wrote: >>> Why the hell does supermarket checkout need a real-time OS? >> It needs a *stable* OS. Real-time pre-emptive multitasking was just a >> side benefit :) > > Let us not ignore the fact that IBM-manufactured checkout systems are > still ver common. They don't use OS/2 though. Most of the older stuff uses 4690 OS, which is a bunch of custom software on some kind of 32-bit DOS-a-like with loadable modules (can't remember the name), or on the more recent stuff Windows XP embedded. In the UK at least, some IBM VARs are selling 4800-series EPOS machines with Linux-based POS software, but XP Embedded is still the most common. Offtopic, but just to address a comment further up, the XP Embedded machines are horrifically unstable. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Feb 3 06:45:24 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:45:24 +0000 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <9e2403920702021435m1680fc8if79842e1b7e9645d@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070202164455.2170158544@mail.wordstock.com> <9e2403920702021435m1680fc8if79842e1b7e9645d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C483E4.9010600@gjcp.net> Josef Chessor wrote: > On 2/2/07, Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> Which one? All the self-checkout lines I have seen are running >> Windows :-(.. I could tell by the Windows lock screen on the >> out-of-order systems. Why oh why couldn't an OS be used that is >> actually real-time and more responsive?! >> > > Ours down here in Texas (at H-E-B) run Linux, netbooting to an X > server at 640x480 or a similar res. They aren't responsive worth a > hoot, but they are very stable. Until the paper runs out of the > reciept printer, that is. ;-) Part of the reason they're not terribly responsive is that they need to look up practically everything in the store controller. The IBM ones contain a 4800-series EPOS machine, with a 1GHz PIII in iirc. No excuse for them to be slow, but the store controllers are very low-end Pentia and are driving all the database stuff for *every till in the store*... When you reboot a 4690-type till, they netboot off the store controller. Lunchtime on a Saturday, this goes *very* slowly. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Feb 3 06:54:31 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:54:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <45C48607.6040007@gjcp.net> Witchy wrote: > On Fri, February 2, 2007 17:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) >> >> Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. >> >> *click* *click click* >> >> Oh My. > > It's still timing out for li'l ol' me in the UK :o| I've stuck a copy of the image up at http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/simh-screen2.jpg Is the source available? Gordon From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sun Feb 4 03:32:55 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 04:32:55 -0500 Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702022358.l12NwxMh043205@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk [mailto:aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: arty computers --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > The quintessentail 'arty' machine I still say is > the > > > > Won't we be flamed if we don't acknowledge the > Kim-1 as the most beautiful > > of all time? > >Kim-wahhh??!! (joking) >I don't think anyone has mentioned the C= PET. >You can't leave that out, what with the whole >2001 thing and all that. >Regards, >Andrew D. Burton >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk >PS. Does anyone know what has happened to >the Old Computer Museum? I can't connect to it? Do you mean www.oldcomputermuseum.com? It works fine for me. Greg From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Feb 4 03:44:19 2007 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:44:19 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com> <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <45C48607.6040007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F8A7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Gordon JC Pearce Verzonden: za 03-02-2007 13:54 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly Witchy wrote: > On Fri, February 2, 2007 17:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> (Re: http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/simh/index.html) >> >> Ok, based on Bill waxing ecstatic there, I've gotta see this. >> >> *click* *click click* >> >> Oh My. > > It's still timing out for li'l ol' me in the UK :o| I've stuck a copy of the image up at http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/simh-screen2.jpg Is the source available? Gordon --------- Thanks Gordon, I neither could see John's site. I know that John has his site behind a firewall on a PC at his work, and that certain domains are blocked. I can't see his site from the PC at home, but can view it at work ... I would also be very interested in his source file(s), especially the points where he grabs the data for the LEDs of the top row. It is probably in pdp11_cpu.c It would save some work for my homebrew version (see www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html ). - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Feb 4 04:24:38 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:24:38 +0000 Subject: Speed meters, was Re: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <1170584678.5665.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 11:53 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 3, 2007, at 12:52 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest > > (just pull off of the M1 line). > > That'd give you a fairly constant reading...not very exciting. > Not many Z80 systems have variable clock rates. Though building one > wouldn't be difficult. Way back when, I developed a Z-80 based embedded unit complete with a simple RTOS. The load indication on that was the HALT line, since it was completely interrupt driven. An analogue voltmeter was a good for checking that all was well inside. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 4 05:28:11 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 02:28:11 -0900 Subject: Quality of Cassette Interface Re: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C50CA5.13909.1765700@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070204022201.045d0570@pop.1and1.com> >The DIsk II didn't come out until 78. The 1977 Apple had only a >casette interface. Remember that OSI (from around the same time) >used a 6850 UART for the same purpose, yet OSI didn't get any acclaim >for the "genius" of the controller. Instead, it got slammed for the >incompatibility of the floppies. Wouldn't the difference be that the more complex cassette interfaces are less prone to error? The MITS documentation says that the 680-KCACR accepts a -20 to +20 % speed variance. I have played basic into my Altair with two recordings. One of them is 10 minutes long and the other is 13 minutes. Neither recording is demodulated at 300bps. Both of them load with no checksum errors, the recordings are from the same tape on two different tape players with different playback speeds. I would be interested to find out if the Apple II was as good. Does the Apple II use the same or a similar circuit as the Apple 1? Woz has a schematic for it in the Wonderbook or whatever that big PDF is called. Pretty much a comparator or opamp connected to a data line for demodulation. Grant From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sun Feb 4 07:18:57 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 08:18:57 -0500 Subject: IBM 3742 for sale In-Reply-To: <20070204010313.49291.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: steven stengel [mailto:tosteve at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:03 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM 3742 for sale > > > Please do not reply to me, this is a forwarded email > from http://oldcomputers.net > ------------------------------------------------ > > Name: shanon barnett - dentalarts at myway.com > Where: cullman, alabama > Date: Tue, Jan 30, 2007 - 11:02:47 PST > > I have a mid 70's IBM 3742 Dual Data Station with the > Manuals that came with it also 2 floppies that it > uses. Would like to sale. > Does anyone have any idea what a fair price for this item would be? I worked with them in the mid to late '70's programming RPG for an IBM System 360. For those who don't know, it is kind of like a keypunch but for entering programs onto an 8" disk instead of punched cards. After learning RPG we later moved on to Fortran and Cobol. Brings back lots of good memories. I am contacting the seller off list as well. Thanks in advance for your time, Greg Manuel From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Feb 4 08:00:37 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:00:37 -0500 Subject: Arty computers References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <004f01c74864$d9c36820$0100a8c0@screamer> I worked for Thinking Machines Inc. I had the oppertunity to design the system status and margining panel for the CM1. I had to work with an artist, Tamiko was her name if I recall correctly. I had to get the 'look' of the status LED's just 'right', diffused through some machined plastic parts. The color, brightness, etc, all were top priority design issues that the artist had final say over. I think I wound up using some fancy LED's from HP that were very new at the time Ultrabright green, shining up from behind the machined plastic bits. A bit of a counter point to the rows and rows of red leds. Now that was (and is) an artsy machine. Some of TMC's artistic work on the CM1 was driven by looking at photos of some of the cray machines, like the one with the waterfall cooling system, and the projected logo floating in the coolant. Clearly Cray won that contest. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Feb 4 08:40:29 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:40:29 +0000 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1170600029.6060.12.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 12:45 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > I, of course, encourage CHM to try... > > At least get the S/360 going... > > -- > Will I'd be up for that ... not quite sure how though ... -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 08:47:33 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:47:33 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170600029.6060.12.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> <1170600029.6060.12.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: > > At least get the S/360 going... > > > > -- > > Will > > I'd be up for that ... not quite sure how though ... If they need some SLT, I have buckets of stuff. I think I can spare a little. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 08:47:33 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:47:33 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <1170600029.6060.12.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <200702031509.l13F9ctn082647@keith.ezwind.net> <1170600029.6060.12.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: > > At least get the S/360 going... > > > > -- > > Will > > I'd be up for that ... not quite sure how though ... If they need some SLT, I have buckets of stuff. I think I can spare a little. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 08:59:00 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:59:00 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > However, I would think that it is unlikely I would have forgotten the > phrase, "seven oh seventy" Its a catchy phrase and has stuck with me for > almost fifty years. We didn't call it the "seventy seventy" or any other > sequence of words, just the "Seven Oh Seventy". However, what it looked > like has pretty much been erased and blended with the many other computers > of similar size that I worked on. You remembering the "seven oh seventy" phrase may have been distorted. This is a common thing for details nearly fifty years old, and just about all of us will or have fallen to an example or two. I work with a number of older ships being restored, and we run into this all the time. Some vets, as good natured and honest as they come, will insist that something was done or installed a certain way, yet the ships will have undeniable proof (often photographic or documented) that it was done another way. Often these are details that the sailor dealt with for a couple of years on a daily basis. Nobody is at fault, really, just memory fades, and often we do not realize it until questioned. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 4 09:08:47 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:08:47 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C5F6FF.2050105@atarimuseum.com> I'm looking for anyone who collects CompuGraphic equipment. My grandfather used to run a Microfilm and Graphics shop and he had a CompuGraphic 7770 system, thing was MASSIVE, it was a furniture-computer (built run into the whole desk) and it was really one of my inspirations for getting into computers when I was a kid. I'm looking for anyone with photo's of systems (especially the 7770) and any brochures or other materials that they could send me scans of, thanks. Curt From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 09:26:34 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:26:34 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <45C1C5B6.6845.4397E53@cclist.sydex.com> <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: I would agree except that I would have been given notice of that 15 years ago when I read the article on the machine...I would think... On 2/4/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > However, I would think that it is unlikely I would have forgotten the > > phrase, "seven oh seventy" Its a catchy phrase and has stuck with me > for > > almost fifty years. We didn't call it the "seventy seventy" or any > other > > sequence of words, just the "Seven Oh Seventy". However, what it looked > > like has pretty much been erased and blended with the many other > computers > > of similar size that I worked on. > > You remembering the "seven oh seventy" phrase may have been distorted. > This is a common thing for details nearly fifty years old, and just > about all of us will or have fallen to an example or two. > > I work with a number of older ships being restored, and we run into > this all the time. Some vets, as good natured and honest as they come, > will insist that something was done or installed a certain way, yet > the ships will have undeniable proof (often photographic or > documented) that it was done another way. Often these are details that > the sailor dealt with for a couple of years on a daily basis. Nobody > is at fault, really, just memory fades, and often we do not realize it > until questioned. > > -- > Will > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 4 09:32:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:32:16 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Feb 2, 7 09:52:21 pm, <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8C1B4FB0-57F3-4E34-8396-FFA8B45F1DC3@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2007, at 11:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That doesn't mean that an analogue meter wouldn't indicate > variations. On a Z80, the instruction length can vary from 1 to 5 > (IIRC) bytes. Given additional cycles for memory and I/O space > references, the instruction issue rate can vary quite a bit. > > Which may have absolutely nothing to do with how much useful work the > CPU's actually doing. Right, you'd get a time-averaged view of the instruction length mix it's running. Which may be interesting in itself, actually. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 09:32:40 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:32:40 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: <1170363932.32369.56.camel@linux.site> <1170498109.24953.181.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: Another thought...Since this was, at the time, the only one and apparently in use BEFORE the public had access to the model, that it was an earlier model that had been upgraded to the performance specs of the 7070 for the government in advance of the 7070s being released as a solid state machine and so therefore we referred to it as a 7070?? It was my understanding at the time that ours was the only one in existence and then later we heard that others had been built. On 2/4/07, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > I would agree except that I would have been given notice of that 15 years > ago when I read the article on the machine...I would think... > > On 2/4/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > However, I would think that it is unlikely I would have forgotten the > > > phrase, "seven oh seventy" Its a catchy phrase and has stuck with me > > for > > > almost fifty years. We didn't call it the "seventy seventy" or any > > other > > > sequence of words, just the "Seven Oh Seventy". However, what it > > looked > > > like has pretty much been erased and blended with the many other > > computers > > > of similar size that I worked on. > > > > You remembering the "seven oh seventy" phrase may have been distorted. > > This is a common thing for details nearly fifty years old, and just > > about all of us will or have fallen to an example or two. > > > > I work with a number of older ships being restored, and we run into > > this all the time. Some vets, as good natured and honest as they come, > > will insist that something was done or installed a certain way, yet > > the ships will have undeniable proof (often photographic or > > documented) that it was done another way. Often these are details that > > the sailor dealt with for a couple of years on a daily basis. Nobody > > is at fault, really, just memory fades, and often we do not realize it > > until questioned. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 4 09:36:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:36:52 -0500 Subject: UNIX ownership In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 3, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Richard wrote: >> AT&T gave up Unix to Novel via USL back around 1992 -- 15 years ago. > > Ah yes, the ill-fated Univel. > > It seems its the Kiss of Death if Novell buys your company. Well these days, someone buying your company is the kiss-of-death symptom, not the problem. The management mentality that often results (at least now) in company acquisitions is one of the things that's killing companies these days. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Feb 4 10:01:49 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:01:49 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C6036D.7010302@dunnington.plus.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Now, the Apple ][... > I had a lot of rpboelsm with it randomly crashing. In the end I took the > whole thing apart and stuck an ammeter in the 5V output of the power > supply. It turend out that the mainboard (48K RAM) + languge caed + 1 > floppy drive drew _more_ than the rated current of the supply as given in > the techincal manual If you added more drives, a serial card, etc, it > became ridiculous. I never had a problem like that, and the Apple ][s I used all had at least two drives, and most had several extra cards in them. > Much has been said about the Apple ][ disk controlle, and how it's a > clever design. Well, a minimal-component design certainly, but I didn't > like it. Neither did I, for much the same reasons. And I had to repair quite a few that went out of alignment, and some that had released the magic smoke when someone plugged the drives in "off by one" after they disconnected them to move the machine. > I didn't like the Apple ][ I/O system. Memory space was tight, but they > wasted lots of space with those 'soft switches' and single-bit inputs. It > could all have been packed into a few bytes. I am pretty sure the 6821 if > not the 6522 was available when the Apple ][ was designed. The 6820 (and 6520) and 6522 existed then. > The Apple text display did have lower case (wich the TRS-80 didn't as > standard), but you couldn't mix text and graphics on the same part of the > screen. Apple gave you the high-res mode, but working out the addresses > gave me headaches (all to save a few chips IMHO!). And colours in the > high-res mode were essentially obtained as NTSC artefacts. The Apple didn't have lower case. The normal Apple ][ character generator ROM only had enough space for upper case in its 64-character set, and the later ones in the (Euro)plus from the Rev 07 boards onwards (the ones that didn't need RAM config blocks) didn't provide lower case unless you replaced the chargen ROM with an EPROM of your own. The only way to get lower case on an unmodified Apple ][ or ][+ was to use the High Res Character Generator (HRCG) routines which came with the Hi-Res toolkit, and they were s..l..o..w.. and icky and of course required you to put the thing in Hi-Res mode. Worst of all for me, though, was that there weren't enough keys on the keyboard, and as a result there were some characters it simply couldn't generate, like underscore and '[' and a few control-characters. IIRC there was a mod for later keyboards to provide upper and lower-case codes, but it wasn't enabled by default and there were still too few keys. Hi-res addressing was unusually complicated, I agree. And the colour limitations were interesting, even for users that had PAL video cards. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 4 10:27:11 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 08:27:11 -0800 Subject: Apple Disk II, was Re: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <45C6095F.27337425@rain.org> > From: Liam Busey > > But for me the biggest problem was > > that the Apple couldn't read/write disks from other > > machines, unlike the > > TRS-80, which used a WD1771 controller and could > > handle any single-desity > > 5.25" disk (I spent many late nights getting it to > > read the disks from > > the school's RML380Z computers, which also used 1771 > > controllers). > > To be fair though, the Apple Disk II system was not > the only game in town. While they weren't common, you > could get a 3rd party 8" MFM floppy system if you > wanted to. Lobo Drives made drives for, among others, the Apple II including a neat box with an 8" floppy drive and an 8" hard disk. They were given to me to sell on Ebay, and then the guy passed away (same person who gave me all the Poly stuff, and lots of other things before he died.) I have them set aside until either I have the time to find out more about how to hook it up, or someone drops by who knows what they are doing. My suspicion is that the hard drives probably have a lot of interesting things from Lobo Drives, hence my caution. And I *think* I have the controller card, but again, I need to research this stuff out. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 4 10:28:06 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:28:06 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C60996.7010704@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 2 Feb 2007 at 23:54, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> >> >>> A few days ago I read a claim that floppies are used infrequently >>> these days (compared to how often they used to be used) so the >>> dust and grime that gets sucked through a drive has longer to >>> accumulate before being deposited onto the occasional floppy >>> that does make it in there (for a BIOS upgrade or whatever). > > Incidentally, I heard a news item a few days ago that 'PC World' (a chain > of computer shops in the UK) will no longer be selling floppy disks once > their current stocks run out. You know, I saw that story too and the numbers are interesting - 2 billion floppies sold worldwide in 1998 versus 700 million in 2006. It then goes on to say that demand has fallen by two thirds, which at least gives us an idea of whose concept of billion they're using :-) But the point is, a 2/3 drop in demand over 8 years seems like not that much at all for something that we're constantly told is useless / ancient / obsolete / no longer needed! Evidently there are still (thankfully) plenty of people out there who think that the floppy still does a useful job. >> My drives get used a lot--and are scrupulously maintained. Modern >> 3.5" DSHD media is garbage. I have far better luck with DS2D 3.5". > > My expeirences exactly. me too I don't quite understand why modern floppy media is so bad; I mean you'd think the manufacturing procedures are the same as they always were, and I find it hard to believe it's just a quality control issue - I mean, surely there wasn't such a high percentage of rejected bad media back in the day (which is now slipping through to market due to bad QC). Conspiracy? ;) > It may, of course, be the age-old marketroid trick. We need to sell USB > sticks/whatever the replacement is, so we'll make sure the old solution > (floppy drives) stops working reliably (by selling crap medai), then > people will have to upgrade. Heh heh, see above... are any of the big names in USB widgets the same people who traditionally made floppy drives / media though? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 4 10:29:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:29:28 -0600 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <7B38B0CF-4928-4C17-B5E5-BE595EC08993@neurotica.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com> <45C3B9B0.25891.BDA7A3C@cclist.sydex.com> <7B38B0CF-4928-4C17-B5E5-BE595EC08993@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C609E8.8070503@yahoo.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 3, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I surely can't be the only one to have thought of hex... >>> >>> Anyone hacked their Z-80 with a analog meter yet? Seems the easiest >>> (just pull off of the M1 line). >> >> Why not a nixie tube display? I mean, why not really do it up? > > Nono. Use IN-13 neon bargraph displays. THAT would be neat. Bah, make the front of the case out of suitable glass and project an image of a Pong game onto it, with the speed of play directly related to the speed of the CPU... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 10:57:43 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 08:57:43 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: <45C5F6FF.2050105@atarimuseum.com> References: , , <45C5F6FF.2050105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45C5A007.24240.3B60E41@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 10:08, Curt - Atari Museum wrote: > I'm looking for anyone who collects CompuGraphic equipment. My > grandfather used to run a Microfilm and Graphics shop and he had a > CompuGraphic 7770 system, thing was MASSIVE, it was a furniture-computer > (built run into the whole desk) and it was really one of my inspirations > for getting into computers when I was a kid. I'm looking for anyone > with photo's of systems (especially the 7770) and any brochures or other > materials that they could send me scans of, thanks. I've got a 5.25" factory-labeled Compugraphic diskette in the collection here (offhand, I don't recall the model number). And don't forget the Varityper--another large system of about the same time. About the size of a chest freezer. Hard-sector 8" diskettes and software called CompSet, IIRC. I used to be fascinated by the old Linotype hot-metal machines myself. ETAOIN SHRDLU. Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 11:11:19 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:11:19 -0500 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> The 701(1952) -> 702 (1953) -> 705-1 (1954) -> 705-II(1957) and ending with the transistorized 1401 (1959) and 701 (1952) -> SAGE, NORC, 704(1954) -> 709(1957) and ending with the transistorized 7090 (1959) and 701 (1952) -> 650(1953) and ending with the transistorized 7070(1958) with the 305-RAMAC(1956) appearing by magic during the time between the 650(1953) and second generation 705 (1957). I think the computer in question was a tube computer produced in the gap between the first 705(1954) and the later release in 1957 a period in time where Core memory development was in full swing. We were deep in the cold war at the time and a lot of mis-direction was being employed, I have always thought there was a tube based system that evolved between the 650 and the transistorized 7070. It would not shock me in the least if this missing TUBE system was not refered to as a 7070 by its users, as one of those little cold war mis-directions Cuz-Ike's boys were so fond of, long before the "Real" 7070 was released in its transistorized form. The 305 RAMAC in 1956 and along with the 705 and 709 in 1957 the 305 is considered to be the last tube computers produced. So when On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:09:10 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >You see the 7070 that I worked on was purchased by the US government for a >very Top Secret installation so it may have been in use before the public >had access to it. Which, by the way, may also be why it was NOT solid >state, it was an early model ?? And questions started to roll around in my head so I looked back.... On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:41:07 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >No, it was a 7070, "IBM seven oh seventy", and it used hundreds if not >thousands of 12au7s or 12ax7s don't remember which it was. And it was >definitely NOT solid state. The first solid state addition to it was a >memory matrix unit that used germanium or silicon junctions in a plane of >12x12 giving 144 bits of permanent memory sitting behind a plastic window so >we could look at it and marvel at the wonders of science ( I dont think it >was really permanent memory as I seem to remember it required a voltage >input to keep it from fading) . It was a frame about 12 inches square and >looked like a course window screen with small dots of junction at every >intersection of the wires. Until we can better identify this mystery system I will call it an 707x and assume it is the missing IBM model 707 from sometime between the 705(1954) and the 709(1957) most likely about the time of the 305(1956). On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:41:07 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >This was in 1959 and 1960 My first question is: Was 1959/1960 when it was installed or when you worked on it ? My second question is: Were the tubes in 10 pin "Fingers" like the 650 or in 8 tube plugins like the 705 And my last questions relate to who, what and where, these questions can be answered of list, if you do not wish to shout it out here in an open forum :-) I understand that much if not most of what we could not talk about in the 60's is public knowledge but that does not keep one from thinking twice even today. Got to run ... Bob Bradlee From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 11:16:09 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:16:09 -0500 Subject: OS/2 stillborn, was Re: TRS-80 Model 1, etc In-Reply-To: <45C51B3B.A71A442F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200702041718.l14HIIAR052488@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:31:06 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Bob Bradlee wrote: >> THe 704 was announced May 7, 1954 and withdrawn April 7, 1960 it was the first binary computer to use >> core memory. >I hope you mean to say the 704 was the first *IBM* binary machine to use core >memory. Whirlwind did so a year or two year earlier (16-bit binary word). >(...always sticking up for Whirlwind for some reason) I had forgotten about that one, I stand corrected and change my comment to: The 704 was the first production computer to use core memory. I do love revisionism :-) FYI: For a short period of time in 1969, I trained on a 1940's vintage Link trainer while attending the Navy Aviation Training Device Technician and Instructor School in Millington TN. I went on to working on the F4 Phantom sym at MAS Beaufort in SC, that was in early 1970. In 1971 all about the calibration problems of upgrading large hard wired analog systems when I worked on an A4e sym upgrade there in Beaufort. These systems used servo driven multiganged reostats as their storage device. There was no boot or loadable program on the flight side. A little digital was added in the mid 60's during an weapons system upgrade and when the ECM stuff was added. later Bob From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 11:21:55 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:21:55 -0500 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200702041724.l14HO4ms052739@keith.ezwind.net> Sorry somehow the opening paragraph to this got lost at sea :-( Well you get the idea, of where I was going even with the rough intro...... Sorry Bob On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:11:19 -0500, Bob Bradlee wrote: >The 701(1952) -> 702 (1953) -> 705-1 (1954) -> 705-II(1957) and ending with the transistorized 1401 >(1959) >and 701 (1952) -> SAGE, NORC, 704(1954) -> 709(1957) and ending with the transistorized 7090 >(1959) >and 701 (1952) -> 650(1953) and ending with the transistorized 7070(1958) >with the 305-RAMAC(1956) appearing by magic during the time between the 650(1953) and second >generation 705 (1957). I think the computer in question was a tube computer produced in the gap >between the first 705(1954) and the later release in 1957 a period in time where Core memory >development was in full swing. >We were deep in the cold war at the time and a lot of mis-direction was being employed, I have always >thought there was a tube based system that evolved between the 650 and the transistorized 7070. >It would not shock me in the least if this missing TUBE system was not refered to as a 7070 by its >users, as one of those little cold war mis-directions Cuz-Ike's boys were so fond of, long before the >"Real" 7070 was released in its transistorized form. >The 305 RAMAC in 1956 and along with the 705 and 709 in 1957 the 305 is considered to be the last >tube computers produced. >So when On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:09:10 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >>You see the 7070 that I worked on was purchased by the US government for a >>very Top Secret installation so it may have been in use before the public >>had access to it. Which, by the way, may also be why it was NOT solid >>state, it was an early model ?? >And questions started to roll around in my head so I looked back.... >On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:41:07 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >>No, it was a 7070, "IBM seven oh seventy", and it used hundreds if not >>thousands of 12au7s or 12ax7s don't remember which it was. And it was >>definitely NOT solid state. The first solid state addition to it was a >>memory matrix unit that used germanium or silicon junctions in a plane of >>12x12 giving 144 bits of permanent memory sitting behind a plastic window so >>we could look at it and marvel at the wonders of science ( I dont think it >>was really permanent memory as I seem to remember it required a voltage >>input to keep it from fading) . It was a frame about 12 inches square and >>looked like a course window screen with small dots of junction at every >>intersection of the wires. >Until we can better identify this mystery system I will call it an 707x and assume it is the >missing IBM model 707 from sometime between the 705(1954) and the 709(1957) most likely about the >time of the 305(1956). >On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:41:07 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >>This was in 1959 and 1960 >My first question is: >Was 1959/1960 when it was installed or when you worked on it ? >My second question is: Were the tubes in 10 pin "Fingers" like the 650 or in 8 tube plugins like the 705 >And my last questions relate to who, what and where, these questions can be answered of list, if you >do not wish to shout it out here in an open forum :-) I understand that much if not most of what we >could not talk about in the 60's is public knowledge but that does not keep one from thinking twice even >today. >Got to run ... >Bob Bradlee > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:24:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:24:23 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates In-Reply-To: <45C60996.7010704@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C60996.7010704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > You know, I saw that story too and the numbers are interesting - 2 billion > floppies sold worldwide in 1998 versus 700 million in 2006. It then goes on to > say that demand has fallen by two thirds, which at least gives us an idea of > whose concept of billion they're using :-) > > But the point is, a 2/3 drop in demand over 8 years seems like not that much > at all for something that we're constantly told is useless / ancient / > obsolete / no longer needed! I would bet the profit margin on floppies was always so slim that a drop like this probably is bad news to the floppy makers. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:30:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:30:14 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C6036D.7010302@dunnington.plus.com> References: <45C6036D.7010302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 2/4/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Neither did I, for much the same reasons. And I had to repair quite a > few that went out of alignment, and some that had released the magic > smoke when someone plugged the drives in "off by one" after they > disconnected them to move the machine. That was a problem I also saw with the drives. Several of my friends had Apple IIs (I had a 32K PET 2001-N), and ISTR more than one person did that. Not cheap. My memory is that at the time, the bare drives were $600 new, so even if one just replaces boards, it's not inexpensive in that environment. > > I didn't like the Apple ][ I/O system. Memory space was tight, but they > > wasted lots of space with those 'soft switches' and single-bit inputs. It > > could all have been packed into a few bytes. I am pretty sure the 6821 if > > not the 6522 was available when the Apple ][ was designed. > > The 6820 (and 6520) and 6522 existed then. The 6520 == 6821 FWIW. I don't recall how much those were, but new 6522 VIAs were $8 quantity 1 in the early 1980s, so I think Woz may have just shied away from them on the basis of cost alone. I did enjoy learning how to twiddle the PET user port on a 4K PET. More complicated than the Apple scheme (data direction registers, interrupts, etc.), but vastly more powerful. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:31:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:31:41 -0500 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > We were deep in the cold war at the time and a lot of mis-direction was being employed, I have always > thought there was a tube based system that evolved between the 650 and the transistorized 7070. That was the 785 - a machine only on paper (it never got so far as to get any circuitry). It turned into the 7070. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 11:32:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:32:29 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <45C5A82D.31293.3D5E04D@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 9:32, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Another thought...Since this was, at the time, the only one and apparently > in use BEFORE the public had access to the model, that it was an earlier > model that had been upgraded to the performance specs of the 7070 for the > government in advance of the 7070s being released as a solid state machine > and so therefore we referred to it as a 7070?? It was my understanding at > the time that ours was the only one in existence and then later we heard > that others had been built. Another possiblity--the Ampex tape drives wouldn't have been standard at the time; it would have been IBM 729's. Could this have been a 7070 hybrid setup of some sort with non-IBM peripherals perhaps using tubes? I'm just tossing something out that may help to explain things... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 11:42:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:42:15 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: <45C48607.6040007@gjcp.net> References: <200701311942.l0VJgtnQ028843@ultimate.com>, <1217.192.168.0.4.1170460986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk>, <45C48607.6040007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45C5AA77.11976.3DED14C@cclist.sydex.com> The Java-based 1620 console simulation isn't too shabby either, although a typewriter would go toward completing the illusion... :) http://www.jowsey.com/java/sim1620/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:43:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:43:45 -0500 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > And my last questions relate to who, what and where, these questions can be answered of list, if you > do not wish to shout it out here in an open forum :-) I understand that much if not most of what we > could not talk about in the 60's is public knowledge but that does not keep one from thinking twice even > today. Most all technology from the 1960s is declassified to some point, if not entirely. Even a lot of the crypto systems have been declassified enough that something better than vague details are free. Not enough that you can get a tech manual or detailed specs, but enough that people can talk about general operation and such. Even SAGE was declassified quite quickly, probably on the standard declassification shedule at the time (every seven years, I think). Was the project/machine top secret in the official sense - at the official Top Secret level? Or was it something else? There is a big difference. Most people do not know the meaning of Top Secret (and it does have an official definition), and use it freely, when other classifications are more proper, like Secret, Classified, or Restricted. Back in the Cold War, nearly every developement project was Secret or Top Secret, by the way. Even some really dumb ones. -- Will From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Feb 4 11:51:19 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:51:19 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: <45C6036D.7010302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <039201c74885$5e98f040$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Neither did I, for much the same reasons. And I had to repair quite a >> few that went out of alignment, and some that had released the magic >> smoke when someone plugged the drives in "off by one" after they >> disconnected them to move the machine. Not that it was a big problem. I still align apple drives by hand (get a full and known good disk, load locksmith 6.0A and ask to read the disk, untight the screws of the stepper motor and turn it until it loads everything ok (no 'inverse As on the screen)). Inverted cables fried the 74LS125 in the analog board :o) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 11:53:17 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:53:17 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C5A82D.31293.3D5E04D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C5A82D.31293.3D5E04D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Another possiblity--the Ampex tape drives wouldn't have been standard > at the time; it would have been IBM 729's. Could this have been a > 7070 hybrid setup of some sort with non-IBM peripherals perhaps using > tubes? Perhaps the Ampex drives were analog for telemetry? They were HUGE in that market in the 1960s. -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 11:52:33 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:52:33 -0500 Subject: Ampex Timeline In-Reply-To: <45C5A82D.31293.3D5E04D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200702041754.l14Hsgkx054201@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:32:29 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Another possiblity--the Ampex tape drives wouldn't have been standard >at the time; it would have been IBM 729's. Although there is little online about the earlt Ampex drives because they were goverment only. The following id from the Ampex timeline: 1950 Ampex introduces the first "dedicated" instrumentation recorder, Model 500, built for the U.S. Navy. 1954 Ampex introduces the first multi-track audio recorder derived from multi-track data recording technology. Some food for thought ... Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 12:14:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:14:13 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , <45C5A82D.31293.3D5E04D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45C5B1F5.19198.3FC1A22@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 12:53, William Donzelli wrote: > Perhaps the Ampex drives were analog for telemetry? They were HUGE in > that market in the 1960s. That was my thought also. Tubes at that time would have been the proven technology. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 13:18:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 11:18:57 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates In-Reply-To: References: <45C365FF.17198.A939216@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 2, 7 04:25:35 pm, Message-ID: <45C5C121.31938.4375D84@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, I heard a news item a few days ago that 'PC World' (a chain > of computer shops in the UK) will no longer be selling floppy disks once > their current stocks run out. Apparently USB sticks store more data and > are more conveneint (well, the first is true, but irrelevant if you only > need to store a few kilobytes, the second is definitely false if your > machine doesn't have a USB port). This is bad news from a preservation standpoint. I've done plenty of work converting diskettes that say "Letters to Mom 1981" and that sort of thing. Small collections of small documents on media inexpensive and easy enough to use that the cost of preservation is negligible. Neither CD-ROM nor USB sticks satisfy this need. Storage in the case of CD is 650+ MB and time-consuming enough that one doesn't think of it as a way of casually preserving a 2 or 3 KB document. USB sticks are expensive and large enough that they'll get reused regularly. As strange as it seems, I think we lost a lot of personal correspondence when hard disks became the rule on PC systems. Folks didn't ordinarily think to back things up and when the computer departed, so did the hard disk and its contents. It's interesting to note that I probably have a copy of everything I did between 1976-1985 on diskette. After that, there are huge holes from omission or unreliable backup media. I suspect that after the final exit of the floppy, that the holes will probably grow larger. There has even been dicussion about leaving hard disks off of internet-conencted PCs entirely (see the XO laptop, for example) because network storage is available. Should that trend extend to personal computers, then the holes will grow even larger. Cheers, Chuck From buseyl at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 13:39:35 2007 From: buseyl at yahoo.com (Liam Busey) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:39:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <754334.46612.qm@web53206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <785142.21637.qm@web53204.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Feb 2007 at 0:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple > ][ seems to have been > > to save a chip if at all possible (provided the > machine still works -- > > just). And yet the kayboard was encoded in > hardware. > Why? It meant you > > couldn't implelement a lower case keyboard in > software (there are the > > well-known shift key mods where you run a wire > from > the shift keyswitch > > to one of the single-bit inputs on the games > connector, which shouldn't > > have been necessary). > > Thank you for absolving me of being the first to use > the term > "gutless wonder". :) LOL. That has a certain ring to it. It gives character. :) > In a way, I suppose the disk controller was a clever > design. But it > locked the CPU into 2MHz operation. The use of a > simple arithmetic > checksum for each sector was not perhaps the most > reliable solution > either. But the biggest problem is that disk > reading > and writing > required 100% attention from the CPU. On most other > computers that > used dedicated LSI controllers, the possibility > existed for > overlapped computation/disk access. Oh yes, that's a huge gotcha with the disk II. It could make communications software or data logging interesting. There were other disk systems for the Apple though none as ubiquitous. I like the Disk II. I don't think it was the ultimate disk system, just a clever/ cheap one (for Apple at least). Liam Busey ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 4 14:49:23 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:49:23 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <45C6036D.7010302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20070204204924.16DE5BA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On 2/4/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Neither did I, for much the same reasons. And I had to repair quite a > > few that went out of alignment, and some that had released the magic > > smoke when someone plugged the drives in "off by one" after they > > disconnected them to move the machine. > > That was a problem I also saw with the drives. Several of my friends > had Apple IIs (I had a 32K PET 2001-N), and ISTR more than one person > did that. Not cheap. My memory is that at the time, the bare drives > were $600 new, so even if one just replaces boards, it's not > inexpensive in that environment. I recall that the "off by one" cable mistake required replacement of a socketed chip, a ULN2003-type driver? A less than one dollar part. I know we like to argue about component level debugging, but there's only a small number of chips on the boards involved, all socketed. Heck, except for the PROM you could replace every single chip for circa $12.00. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 4 14:52:00 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:52:00 -0500 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: References: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20070204205200.D9E2DBA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: > Back in the Cold War, nearly every developement project was Secret or > Top Secret, by the way. Even some really dumb ones. The dumb ones stay secret, because nobody wants the newspapers to find out we were wasting so much money on them :-). Tim. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 4 14:53:36 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:53:36 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) References: , , <45C5A82D.31293.3D5E04D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C647D0.DEFA05CB@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Feb 2007 at 9:32, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > Another thought...Since this was, at the time, the only one and apparently > > in use BEFORE the public had access to the model, that it was an earlier > > model that had been upgraded to the performance specs of the 7070 for the > > government in advance of the 7070s being released as a solid state machine > > and so therefore we referred to it as a 7070?? It was my understanding at > > the time that ours was the only one in existence and then later we heard > > that others had been built. > > Another possiblity--the Ampex tape drives wouldn't have been standard > at the time; it would have been IBM 729's. Could this have been a > 7070 hybrid setup of some sort with non-IBM peripherals perhaps using > tubes? Given Ampex tape drives, has the "7070" number lead to the presumption in the discussion that it was an IBM processor?. Might it be that it was made by another manufacturer, and a one-off/special contract that wouldn't typically show up in popular lineages? From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 4 14:58:32 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:58:32 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates In-Reply-To: <45C5C121.31938.4375D84@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C365FF.17198.A939216@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 2 7 pm <45C5C121.31938.4375D84@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070204205832.E88A2BA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > There has even been dicussion about leaving hard disks off of > internet-conencted PCs entirely (see the XO laptop, for example) > because network storage is available. This is a "new innovation" every couple of years, but has been around since the 1960's when the argument was keypunches and card decks vs timesharing. Then in the 70's it was the departmental mini vs the terminal. Then in the 80's it was the diskless workstation vs the PC. Then in the 90's it was the network computer vs the PC. Then it was, well, it's pretty much the same today but big corps like Google come in. My favorite was the "diskless workstation" of the mid-80's, because it was so easy to say "dickless workstation" instead! Tim. From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Feb 4 15:05:21 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:05:21 -0600 Subject: Apple Disk II, was Re: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C6095F.27337425@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070204145803.0c7bab70@mail.athenet.net> At 08:27 AM 2/4/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > From: Liam Busey > > > > But for me the biggest problem was > > > that the Apple couldn't read/write disks from other > > > machines, unlike the > > > TRS-80, which used a WD1771 controller and could > > > handle any single-desity > > > 5.25" disk (I spent many late nights getting it to > > > read the disks from > > > the school's RML380Z computers, which also used 1771 > > > controllers). > > > > To be fair though, the Apple Disk II system was not > > the only game in town. While they weren't common, you > > could get a 3rd party 8" MFM floppy system if you > > wanted to. > >Lobo Drives made drives for, among others, the Apple II including a neat box I used to sell and service Apple ][ computers. For a while there, the biggest service issue we had was with people bringing in their floppy drives (single 5.25 inch) and saying we'd sold them a bad one, or it died under warranty. Before even letting the customer leave the premises, I'd quickly take out the four screws that held on the cover and show them the blackened spot on the inside of the cover, then show them the 74LS125 in the middle of the board, which invariably had been cracked or cratered. The documentation clearly said, connect the ribbon cable to the controller with the cable exiting AWAY from the board. But there were any number of folks that went the long way around, and put a great deal of effort into bending the cable sharply where it exited the ID connection, so that they could plug it into the controller card backwards. This usually resulted in a spectacular failure of the '125. I had to tell them that Apple had designated this a special case: No warranty if you let the smoke out. I saw some with a neat crater in the chip, and a scorch mark inside the cover aligned with it. -T [Commentary] And, of course, the word "politics" is derived from "POLY", meaning many, and "TICS", meaning small, blood sucking insects. --Chris Clayton, USFMCNCG at ibmmail.com --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 4 15:31:30 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:31:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: 3.5" Floppy survival (was Re: TRS-80 Model 1) Message-ID: <200702042131.l14LVUq5063392@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Feb 2007 at 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Incidentally, I heard a news item a few days ago > that 'PC World' (a chain > > of computer shops in the UK) will no longer be > selling floppy disks once > > their current stocks run out. Apparently USB > sticks store more data and > > are more conveneint (well, the first is true, bu t > irrelevant if you only > > need to store a few kilobytes, the second is > definitely false if your > > machine doesn't have a USB port). > > This is bad news from a preservation standpoint. > **>> snip <<** > > Cheers, > Chuck Yes, that's bad news for me too. Whilst my Amiga's are down at present, I do fully intend to get back to them and develop more games/software for them. All my stuff (so far) is only usually around 200-300KB in size. Without floppy disks I'd have to burn them to CD, or upload them onto the 'net (and then burn them to CD's using a laptop - which I haven been meaning to get for 2 years now, just for that purpose). Whilst we won't run out of 3.5" disks just yet, I was wondering how feasible would it be for someone (probably fairly rich) to make home-made disks? Or perhaps someone would spot the hole in the market and continue to make disks for those of us that require them? The only problem with that is of course, would we be buying enough regularly (200,000 a year?) to make it worth their time/effort/money? I have a feeling it ain't looking good.... Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 4 15:36:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:36:16 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:08:47 -0500. <45C5F6FF.2050105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <45C5F6FF.2050105 at atarimuseum.com>, Curt - Atari Museum writes: > I'm looking for anyone who collects CompuGraphic equipment. I think I've seen a complete compugraphic console for sale on ebay. I don't seem to be able to find it now, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 15:39:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 13:39:17 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C647D0.DEFA05CB@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <45C647D0.DEFA05CB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45C5E205.30767.4B7DB07@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 12:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Given Ampex tape drives, has the "7070" number lead to the presumption in the > discussion that it was an IBM processor?. Might it be that it was made by > another manufacturer, and a one-off/special contract that wouldn't typically > show up in popular lineages? Maybe someone still has the original message that started this thread, but I seem to remember that there was something in it that at least confirmed the 7070 architecture. I think it was the mention of 5K words of core being standard. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 4 16:03:00 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:03:00 -0700 Subject: IBM history (was: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 in Yates Center, KS)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:55:36 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > I can not imagine IBM making a tube version of the 7070, with no > history on it. That project would have been something as big as the > AN/FSQ-7. The 7070 was a pretty good sized machine. Speaking of IBM history, I wanted to enquire with them on some aspects of SAGE, but I couldn't find any contact point on their web site despite the large history section they have on their web site. Has anyone attempted to contact IBM historians? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 16:14:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:14:00 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45C5EA28.13945.4D7A3B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 14:36, Richard wrote: > I think I've seen a complete compugraphic console for sale on ebay. > > I don't seem to be able to find it now, though. This one? Probably still available. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270076330824 Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 4 14:08:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:08:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C54F1A.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Feb 3, 7 08:12:26 pm Message-ID: > > required 100% attention from the CPU. On most other computers that > > used dedicated LSI controllers, the possibility existed for > > overlapped computation/disk access. > > Like when? > I can't think of any small computer or PC that does that? I thought every PC (maaning IBM compatible) did that. The floppy system in the PC. XT and ZT has a DMA channel associated with it. You ask it to read some secotyors from the current track, it does so and transfers the data into memory, then gives you an iterrupt when it's done. I know for a fact that other tasks carry on running on this (slow) linux machine when it's doing floppy drive operations. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 4 14:04:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:04:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 7 07:00:44 pm Message-ID: [Apple ][] > In a way, I suppose the disk controller was a clever design. But it In once sense it was, it was a very minimal-component-count design. But I do wish it had had a track 0 sensor (which wouldn't have added much to the design and would have kept the drives in alignment a little longer...). The downside was that it was incompatible with everythign else. You couldnt send disks to owneres of other machines. That to me is a major minus-point. > locked the CPU into 2MHz operation. The use of a simple arithmetic > checksum for each sector was not perhaps the most reliable solution > either. But the biggest problem is that disk reading and writing > required 100% attention from the CPU. On most other computers that Apple seem to have an aversion to interrupts (This carried on into the early Macs too it appears). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 4 14:21:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Feb 3, 7 10:56:07 pm Message-ID: > The northstar disk controller and many similar ones required the > processor to suck in each byte anyway, so there was no chance there of > the CPU doing something productive. Now look at the chip count of the > nortstar controller board: > > http://www.sol20.org/manuals/nstar_MDS-A-D.pdf > > vs. the apple II disk controller (scroll down a bit): > > http://www.8bit-museum.de/docs/apple3b.htm# I am well aware how simple the Disk II card is. That doesn't _ncessarily_ make it a goof design... Personally I'd rahter had had a more complex controller that didn't use up all the CPU cycles, tht didn't tie me into using Apple's own drivea (yes there were others later, but not many, and not at the start), and that was compatible with the rest of the world > > By comparison, the apple II controller is brilliant. Yes, there existed > disk controllers with DMA, but those were more complex and cost a whole > lot more in 1977. Besides, the Apple II had a great expansion bus, and > some enterprising company could have plopped a 177x disk controller in > machine at the point it made sense, but apparently it never did as its Oh they did. I saw am 8" single density disk add-on for the Apple that used a 1711 (IIRC) on the interface card. > > As for the apple II minimalism -- saving a chip here and there -- > indeed, it is a toy compared to, say, the the way HP would do it. But > then the HP would have cost 10x as much. As I've seid so many times before I rarely, if ever, consider the price when working out if something is the right solution. > Now look at the apple. Yeah, crappy 40x24 text mode, but they were in > color and, for the time, unheard of bitmapped graphics modes in a No, the text mode was black and white only. You could flip a soft switch and get the bytes of screen mmeory (or the top 20 rows of screen memory) re-interpretted as 2 colour blocks each. What you couldn't do is arbitrarily mix text and graphis on the screen. > Tony said: > >> And another oddiity. The whole design of the Apple ][ seems to have > >> been to save a chip if at all possible > > Yes and no. They spent some chips to give the machine great > expandability and color, bitmapped graphics. On the other hand, The extra components for both of those functions were minimal. Much is made of the expansion slots on the Apple ][, but in reality they didn't really give you anything more than the expansion bus on the TRS-80 Model 1 or PRT. OK, you had to case and power peripherals for those machines, but that wasn't a mahor problem. > I admire the design greatly for what it was and for the time it was > done. The fact the machine came standard with full schematics and a To be fair, schematics for all the TRS-80 machines and their peripherals were trivial to obtain, and cheap. I think the technical reference manuals for the 8 bit machines were only a few pounds each in the UK (I bought most of them). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 4 16:03:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:03:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <794805.20707.qm@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> from "Liam Busey" at Feb 4, 7 00:05:40 am Message-ID: > I see nothing wrong with that. The Tandy machines > seemed like decent computers for the money. I wouldn't > mind picking up a TRS-80 someday. If you don't want 'the first', try to get a Model 4, original (non-gate-array) CPU board versions. It's got a couple of features not found on the earlier machines, including an 80*24 text mode display and selectable memory mapping allowing RAM at location 0 so you can run normal CP/M as well as TRS-DOS, LDOS, etc. And the origianl CPU board is all standard chips with some PALs dotted about, > Strange, I haven't noticed any stability problems with > my ][ and ][+ under similar loads. Still, an unstable > machine is unlikely to impress. i must admit my comments are based on one machine, and are hardly scientific. Perhaps my machine had chips that drew more current than average, or someting (still, a good design would haev taken the worst-case figures). [...] > Would you recoil in horror if I told you that some > companies made single sided 40 track 3" (Amdisk) and > double sided 80 track 5.25" (Rana Elite 3) drives for > use with the original Disk II controller? ;) Yes, I remember seeing those advertised in Byte. Still, they came out a good few years after the Apple drive, and even then the choice of drives as limited compared to, say, the TRS-80. > > The first seiral port for the Apple ][ was a > > bit-banger. It was the only > > one I had for some time, and it was almost unusable. > > The TRS-80 used a > > real UART, and worked. Yes, there were better serial > > ports avaiable for > > the Apple later. > > Was this an early serial board or were you using the No, this wa a plug-in card which went into one of the normal Apple slots. It contained a couple of firmware ROMs, a few TTL parts, an opto-isolator and some discretes. All it implelented was TxD and RxD (no handshaking at all). It did have both current loop and RS232 I/O. The lack of handahake inputs was a big problem. Ordiarily you'd have used software flow control (XON/XOFF, for example0, but the darn thing was a bit-banger (and Apple didn't believe in interrupts) so you couldn't reliably receive the handshake characters. It was a genuine Apple product, I still have it somwhere along with the manual. > game port? I've always enjoyed the luxury of a 6551 > equiped board (Super Serial Card II). I've also seen 6850-based serial cards for the Apple, but I don't think they were Apple products (CCS or somebody). > I think Woz was allergic to peripheral chips in the > beginning. :) Unlike Chuck Peddle who had a love of 6522s (the Sirius/Victor 9000 has 6 of thtm in it...) > > The colors are NTSC artifacts! :) I thought that was a > neat hack. How did they deal with that in PAL land? Well, there was the ;'Eurapple mod' which was a couple of cnt/blob changes to the main PCB and a different master clock crystal. That got you Europane video timing, albeit without PAL colour (most, if not all Apples ][ machines sold over here came with that mod done). There was a board you put in Slot 7 (which had soem extra timing signals brought out) which did the appropriate phase-shifts to get PAL video. Or there were 3rd party board to give RGB video. > > Bingo! Legend has it that Woz's aesthetic ideal was to > bum a design down to as few chips as possible. Almost > a Madman Muntz I suppose. > > Methinks you're not a fan of Clive Sinclair either? :) How ever did you guess :-). No I don't much care for his kludges. Suffice it to say that I once did battle with a QL (which at the time sold for \pounds 400). My comments were that had it sold for \pounds 600 but had working serial ports, a real keyboard, and a disk drive, then I might have actually bought one. > understand where you're coming from. I like the Apple > because I feel it's a machine with interesting > capabilities yet made from a small amount of simple > parts. It's a machine I can both grasp and enjoy. I am suprised by that last comment. Actually some parts of the Apple hardware are quite difficult to understnad properly becuase they do use unobvious tricks to save components. It reminds me of some of the circuits you find in those Radio Shack '300 in 1' kits. Some of those are not easy to follow IMHO. In may ways a somewhat more complicated computer can be easier to understand because everything is done in the obvious way without trying to save every last gate. > > What's your opinion of the BBC Micro? I've never had > the pleasure of using one, but on paper it sounds a > lot like a fast Apple II with a pair of 6522, 6845, > hardware ACIA, 1770 FDC, and enhanced basic. I'd rather have an ACW :-) (This is a joke which I'll explain in a moment) The BBC micro is IMHO,. the best 6502-based home computer ever, it's one of the best of the 8-bitters (no matter what processor). The only thing the Apple has that the Beeb doesn't are the expansion slots. But a Beeb has a printer port, disk controller (8271 on early machines, 1770 on later models),serial port (The ACIA is also used for the cassette interface, BTW), ADC, user port, expansion bus, etc. And the BASIC is excellent. Named procedures with formal parammeters and local variables, multi-line functions, built-in assembler, etc, etc, etc. And there are bank-switched ROM sockets where you can put other language ROMs (or applications, or...) Now for the omment on the ACW. An ACW is an Acron Cambridge Workstation. Take a BBC B+ (64KL RAM) board. Put it in a case with a colour monitor, floppy drive and hard drive. Now add a coprocessor board containing a 32016 and 4M RAM (!). As a workstation it's let down by the BBC's graphics (excellent for a home computer, but not up to workstation standards). But as a 'home micro' it does everything the Beeb does and a lot more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 4 14:11:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:11:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 7 08:26:37 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Feb 2007 at 1:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What happenms with the 'repeat' instructions, LDIR, etc? I seem to > > remember they keep on re-fetching the opcode, do they assert M1 each time? > > Yes indeed it does. The repeated operations run the CPU through RNI > and decode each time. Which is why the Z80 gained most of its speed In which case simply counting M1s won't tell you how many instructions have bene exectued (assuming yopu could an LDIR as 1 instruciton, no matter how many times it repeats). Of coruse there's another trivial correction. You want to combine M1 with MREQ (feed M1/ and MREQ. into an OR gate). Otherwise you'll count interrupt acknowledges too (M1 and IORQ asserted at the same time). -tony From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 16:22:49 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:22:49 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C5E205.30767.4B7DB07@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C647D0.DEFA05CB@cs.ubc.ca> <45C5E205.30767.4B7DB07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In my original post I did not mention that, but as I recall there was 9K of volatile memory (tubes) and later we added 144 BYTES of core memory. To begin with when we had no non-volitile memory the programs were typed on a teletype tape and loaded when needed from a paper tape reader following a boot tape. A boot progam was added when we got the 144 bytes of core. That was the main use of the core to store a boot program. At one time they tried a Drum "hard drive" but it was very unreliable. The whole process was very slow sometimes taking a couple of hours to get it booted and programs loaded due to the unreliability of the tape reader which was very finicky about the tape speed and the speed was governed by how fast you pulled the tape through! Yes, by hand, no motorized tape reader. Once booted and a program loaded you could then store and retrieve data from the Ampex drives but could not store programs or retrieve them from tape. I don't know why because it would seem a natural way to do it...in hindsight. Yes it was an IBM On 2/4/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Feb 2007 at 12:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Given Ampex tape drives, has the "7070" number lead to the presumption > in the > > discussion that it was an IBM processor?. Might it be that it was made > by > > another manufacturer, and a one-off/special contract that wouldn't > typically > > show up in popular lineages? > > Maybe someone still has the original message that started this > thread, but I seem to remember that there was something in it that > at least confirmed the 7070 architecture. I think it was the mention > of 5K words of core being standard. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 4 16:24:15 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:24:15 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:14:00 -0800. <45C5EA28.13945.4D7A3B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45C5EA28.13945.4D7A3B0 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 4 Feb 2007 at 14:36, Richard wrote: > > > I think I've seen a complete compugraphic console for sale on ebay. > > > > I don't seem to be able to find it now, though. > > This one? Probably still available. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270076330824 No, I think it was being offered by "computermkt". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 4 16:25:28 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:25:28 -0600 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C5123C.1547.18C2C0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <82a65ef132a7ccc06727b6391bbd9956@valleyimplants.com>, <45C4F662.14689.11F64DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C5766A.8070100@oldskool.org> <45C5123C.1547.18C2C0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C65D58.5050208@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, just making sure. On 486, it was break-even; on Pentium, it was >> indeed faster for most cases to pair instructions. (Although, if you >> wanted to get fancy, you could copy memory even faster by loading 64 >> bits at a time into the FPU registers, then storing them out...) > > Yeah, but then you wouldn't have code that would run on *any* x86. True, but you wouldn't want to do the mov; dec; mov; jnz on anything less than a 386, it's way too slow compared to rep movs. > To be fair, however, in a bunch of my code, I did have a routine that > started out: > > mov Is_x86,0 ; assume neither 286 nor 386 > push sp > pop ax > cmp ax,sp ; see if the same > jne Init2 ; if not 2/386 > inc Is_x86 ; it's at least a 286 > .486 > sgdt scratch ; stash the GDT > .8086 > mov al,byte ptr scratch+5 > test al,al > jnz Init2 > inc Is_x86 ; at least a 386 > Init2: > > so I could make use of those 32 bit registers for moving data around > and calculating CRCs and such. Hey, that's neat... I've never seen that technique (global descriptor table) before. I used to check if pushf/popf preserved the Alignment Check bit (386=no, 486=yes). > That's one of the awful inequities of "improved" CPUs; something like > processor social economics. A trick used to exploit a faster CPU > will often run more slowly on the lower CPU than if you had left in > the non-tricky code. So the folks with older CPUs sometimes get > penalized additionally through no fault of their own. As someone whose only computer was a 7MHz 8086 from 1985 to 1991, I was able to experience this firsthand. I later replaced with an NEC V30 so that "286" programs would work (99% of the time, the only "286" thing about a program was SHR/SHL/ROR/ROL by an operand greater than 1, which the NEC V30 could do) but they certainly didn't work well. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 16:26:29 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:26:29 -0600 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: <20070204205200.D9E2DBA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> <20070204205200.D9E2DBA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: The one I was on may have saved our collective butts on several occasions. On 2/4/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > "William Donzelli" wrote: > > Back in the Cold War, nearly every developement project was Secret or > > Top Secret, by the way. Even some really dumb ones. > > The dumb ones stay secret, because nobody wants the newspapers to find > out we were wasting so much money on them :-). > > Tim. > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 16:26:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:26:47 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C5E205.30767.4B7DB07@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45C647D0.DEFA05CB@cs.ubc.ca>, <45C5E205.30767.4B7DB07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C5ED27.21360.4E3570D@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 12:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Given Ampex tape drives, has the "7070" number lead to the presumption in the > discussion that it was an IBM processor?. Might it be that it was made by > another manufacturer, and a one-off/special contract that wouldn't typically > show up in popular lineages? I suspect that the 7070 in question probably was at NASA Langley and fed by Ampex (possibly FR 300 or FR 1400) telemetry tape machines, probably from the Minitrack satellite telemetry tracking system. The FR 300 was a very popular 7 track unit--I believe that early CDC systems (e.g. 160) even used them. Just more guesswork here. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Feb 4 08:18:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:18:04 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <0JCX00DZLZOLJVW6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model I > From: Jim Battle > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:56:07 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Let's look at contemporaries (1977 micros). The Sol-20 had 64x16 text, >and unless you polled the hblank signal and limited yourself to poking >one character per 50 uS, you'd get snow on the screen. There were >others that had the snow problem as well (eg, exidy sorcerer). The >TRS-80 didn't have the snow problem, but it too had a 64x16 text >display. The PET (which I never used) also had character graphics of >the most pathetic sort. It did have the snow problem (more correctly flashing) save for the cpu was so slow at 1.7mhz that it was less likely too. It also didn't have lower case, Sol20 aka the VDM-1 video did! Apple did some neat things but they went in differnt directions at different prices. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 4 16:40:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:40:11 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C660CB.807@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I thought every PC (maaning IBM compatible) did that. The floppy system > in the PC. XT and ZT has a DMA channel associated with it. You ask it to > read some secotyors from the current track, it does so and transfers the > data into memory, then gives you an iterrupt when it's done. Well on some computers, like the COCO the IRQ only is used to end the cpu polling loop for the floppy.Since the default OS is CP/M err MSDOS I expect the hardware is not used effectivly. > > I know for a fact that other tasks carry on running on this (slow) linux > machine when it's doing floppy drive operations. > > -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 16:42:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:42:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <259302.19172.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> there never was the ability to perform color on the *classic* (i.e Z80 or 68k based) Trash-80s, wuz there? I know the 2K wasnt 1st, the award going to the coco ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 16:56:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:56:01 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: References: <45C4EFFD.25624.10668E8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 7 08:26:37 pm, Message-ID: <45C5F401.5557.4FE1BA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > In which case simply counting M1s won't tell you how many instructions > have bene exectued (assuming yopu could an LDIR as 1 instruciton, no > matter how many times it repeats). Now we're splitting hairs. Functionally, there's not a whole lot of difference between LDIR and L1: LDI DJNZ L1 The Z80 enters an M1 state for every repetition. I suspect (but haven't verified it) that if the LDIR modifies itself, the modified code executes on the next M1 cycle (i.e. the CPU remembers nothing from one iteration to the next). Didn't the GI CP1600 have an external line that, if activated, would inhibit P-counter increment? I don't know if anyone ever used it for anything. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 17:02:54 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:02:54 -0500 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: References: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> <20070204205200.D9E2DBA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > The one I was on may have saved our collective butts on several occasions. Just tell us the name of the program or project, and that could help us a lot. If it was mentioned in a magazine (even one with classified distribution), it CAN'T be that classified! Dimes to donuts that the project has in part been declassified. Even the most secret projects from the 1960s are at least partially declassified now - even the nuke and crypto stuff. Look at all the info on this stuff on the net, wiki, NSA museum or even the History Channel now. If these were such black projects on par with what you were involved with, these information sources would not exist. -- Will From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 17:23:53 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:23:53 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: <45C5ED27.21360.4E3570D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C647D0.DEFA05CB@cs.ubc.ca> <45C5E205.30767.4B7DB07@cclist.sydex.com> <45C5ED27.21360.4E3570D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Not at Langly On 2/4/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Feb 2007 at 12:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Given Ampex tape drives, has the "7070" number lead to the presumption > in the > > discussion that it was an IBM processor?. Might it be that it was made > by > > another manufacturer, and a one-off/special contract that wouldn't > typically > > show up in popular lineages? > > I suspect that the 7070 in question probably was at NASA Langley and > fed by Ampex (possibly FR 300 or FR 1400) telemetry tape machines, > probably from the Minitrack satellite telemetry tracking system. The > FR 300 was a very popular 7 track unit--I believe that early CDC > systems (e.g. 160) even used them. > > Just more guesswork here. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 4 17:45:53 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:45:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: arty computers Message-ID: <200702042345.l14NjqLG068652@keith.ezwind.net> --- "G Manuel (GMC)" wro te: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > [mailto:aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:59 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: arty computers > **>> snip <<** > >Regards, > >Andrew D. Burton > >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > >PS. Does anyone know what has happened to > >the Old Computer Museum? I can't connect to it? > > Do you mean www.oldcomputermuseum.com? It works fi ne > for me. > > Greg > Ok, I can connect, but I get redirected to here: http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/files/error.html I'm on dial-up and am from the UK. That shouldn't ma ke a difference should it??? Does anyone know if the site has been altered/ upgraded recently? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 4 17:56:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:56:07 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk II, was Re: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070204145803.0c7bab70@mail.athenet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070204145803.0c7bab70@mail.athenet.net> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > Before even letting the customer leave the premises, I'd quickly > take out the four screws that held on the cover and show them the > blackened spot on the inside of the cover, then show them the > 74LS125 in the middle of the board, which invariably had been > cracked or cratered. > > The documentation clearly said, connect the ribbon cable to the > controller with the cable exiting AWAY from the board. But there > were any number of folks that went the long way around, and put a > great deal of effort into bending the cable sharply where it exited > the ID connection, so that they could plug it into the controller > card backwards. > > This usually resulted in a spectacular failure of the '125. Did that failure take out anything else, or did replacing only the 74LS125 solve the problem? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 17:57:16 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:57:16 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C672DC.2000209@sbcglobal.net> Try this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200072367851&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010 It's been up there a few times. I've emailed the seller about it a few times, but it's just too expensive to ship for me. It's pick-up only and is not strapped to a pallet. I believe he will take quite a bit less than the buy-it-now price. Bob Richard wrote: >In article <45C5EA28.13945.4D7A3B0 at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > >>On 4 Feb 2007 at 14:36, Richard wrote: >> >> >> >>>I think I've seen a complete compugraphic console for sale on ebay. >>> >>>I don't seem to be able to find it now, though. >>> >>> >>This one? Probably still available. >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270076330824 >> >> > >No, I think it was being offered by "computermkt". > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 17:57:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:57:14 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <794805.20707.qm@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2/4/07, Tony Duell wrote: > If you don't want 'the first', try to get a Model 4, original > (non-gate-array) CPU board versions. It's got a couple of features not > found on the earlier machines, including an 80*24 text mode display and > selectable memory mapping allowing RAM at location 0 so you can run > normal CP/M as well as TRS-DOS, LDOS, etc. Ooh... didn't know that the M4 could run CP/M. When I was in High School, our "Computer Math" class was done with a M3 and M4 running TRS-DOS. If I'd known I could have gotten CP/M for it at the time (c. 1983), I would have been happy to bring that in. I was on independent study anyway. I'll have to see what I have lurking around in the way of TRS-80 hardware now. I got some right before I left for the Pole and it was put away in my absence, so I'm not even sure what it all is (beyond a Model 3 that did not come up during an initial check-out). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 4 18:16:25 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:16:25 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org> > As strange as it seems, I think we lost a lot of personal > correspondence when hard disks became the rule on PC systems. This is a huge issue amongst archivists. "Personal papers" aren't on paper any more, if they exist at all they are directories full of email. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 18:23:35 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:23:35 -0600 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: References: <200702041713.l14HDUcm052267@keith.ezwind.net> <20070204205200.D9E2DBA42FF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: I can say, it was USAF Special Weapons but cant say further. It wasn't mentioned in a magazine, it was in a book but the program was not revealed, just that the computer was used and that it was Cold War espionage. I knew what it was about because I had information not in the article. No one else would have known unless they were part of the project. I assume its been declassified but I have never seen anything about it in print or on the news so maybe it hasn't been. Personally I prefer Corpus Christi, Texas to Leavenworth, Kansas...especially at this time of the year. On 2/4/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > The one I was on may have saved our collective butts on several > occasions. > > Just tell us the name of the program or project, and that could help > us a lot. If it was mentioned in a magazine (even one with classified > distribution), it CAN'T be that classified! > > Dimes to donuts that the project has in part been declassified. Even > the most secret projects from the 1960s are at least partially > declassified now - even the nuke and crypto stuff. Look at all the > info on this stuff on the net, wiki, NSA museum or even the History > Channel now. If these were such black projects on par with what you > were involved with, these information sources would not exist. > > -- > Will > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 4 18:29:01 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 19:29:01 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: <45C672DC.2000209@sbcglobal.net> References: <45C672DC.2000209@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <45C67A4D.1060303@atarimuseum.com> Whole %&*^ !!! That's right in my backyard (so to speak, I will contact the seller and see what could be arranged, BTW if anyone is looking to get something form that seller and needs assistance, I would be happy to pick stuff up, pallete it and drop it off at Forward Air in Newburgh, NY to ship to your local airport hub and you can pick up from there, a lot cheaper then North American and other movers. Curt Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Try this one: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200072367851&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010 > > > It's been up there a few times. I've emailed the seller about it a few > times, but it's just too expensive to ship for me. > It's pick-up only and is not strapped to a pallet. I believe he will > take quite a bit less than the buy-it-now price. > > Bob > > > Richard wrote: > >> In article <45C5EA28.13945.4D7A3B0 at cclist.sydex.com>, >> "Chuck Guzis" writes: >> >> >> >>> On 4 Feb 2007 at 14:36, Richard wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I think I've seen a complete compugraphic console for sale on ebay. >>>> >>>> I don't seem to be able to find it now, though. >>>> >>> This one? Probably still available. >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270076330824 >>> >> >> No, I think it was being offered by "computermkt". >> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 4 18:40:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:40:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 4, 7 06:57:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/4/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > If you don't want 'the first', try to get a Model 4, original > > (non-gate-array) CPU board versions. It's got a couple of features not > > found on the earlier machines, including an 80*24 text mode display and > > selectable memory mapping allowing RAM at location 0 so you can run > > normal CP/M as well as TRS-DOS, LDOS, etc. > > Ooh... didn't know that the M4 could run CP/M. When I was in High There was a CP/M+ for it (the M4 could officially take 128K of RAM, I believe there were hacks to put 256K chips, not 64K in bank 1...). Mind you, I am not sure why you'd _want_ to run CP/M on it. The 'native' TRS-DOS 6.x (aka LS-ODS) is a much nicer OS, with loadable device drivers, some (limited) I/O redirection, a better scripting facility, etc. > School, our "Computer Math" class was done with a M3 and M4 running > TRS-DOS. If I'd known I could have gotten CP/M for it at the time (c. The Model 4 will run all Model 3 software, including booting all Model 3 OSes. If you were running Model 3 TRS-DOS (TRS-DOS 1.x) I can understand why you'd want to run something else :-) -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 4 18:46:54 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 00:46:54 +0000 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/2/07 00:23, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > I can say, it was USAF Special Weapons but cant say further. It wasn't > mentioned in a magazine, it was in a book but the program was not revealed, > just that the computer was used and that it was Cold War espionage. I knew > what it was about because I had information not in the article. No one else > would have known unless they were part of the project. I assume its been > declassified but I have never seen anything about it in print or on the news > so maybe it hasn't been. Personally I prefer Corpus Christi, Texas to > Leavenworth, Kansas...especially at this time of the year. Hasn't all the good stuff been declassified by now? I know that the codes for launching the Bad Stuff in the cold war were never set by anyone so the launch code for a nuke was 0000 if punched into the right device; this info is live and direct from the web so it MUST be true :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Feb 4 18:40:22 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 00:40:22 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <45C6036D.7010302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <45C67CF6.5080102@dunnington.plus.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/4/07, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Neither did I, for much the same reasons. And I had to repair quite a >> few that went out of alignment, and some that had released the magic >> smoke when someone plugged the drives in "off by one" after they >> disconnected them to move the machine. > > That was a problem I also saw with the drives. Several of my friends > had Apple IIs (I had a 32K PET 2001-N), and ISTR more than one person > did that. Not cheap. My memory is that at the time, the bare drives > were $600 new, so even if one just replaces boards, it's not > inexpensive in that environment. Actually they were cheap to repair, because the most common failure by smoke emission was the 74LS125 and the next most common was the MC3740 (I hope I've remembered that number correctly). The former cost a few tens of pennies and the latter several tens of pennies. It was just a nuisance to have to do it, especially since at one time the Motorola chip was hard to source in small quantities. One Motorola distributor even told me it didn't exist! > The 6520 == 6821 FWIW. Not quite -- they're functionally equivalent but the 6520 is a copy of the 6820, and the 6821 is a later more reliable part. We regularly replaced the ones in PETs because one (I forget which of the two it had) used to get damaged easily. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Feb 4 18:48:36 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 00:48:36 +0000 Subject: Apple Disk II, was Re: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070204145803.0c7bab70@mail.athenet.net> Message-ID: <45C67EE4.4080304@dunnington.plus.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 4, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >> Before even letting the customer leave the premises, I'd quickly take >> out the four screws that held on the cover and show them the blackened >> spot on the inside of the cover, then show them the 74LS125 in the >> middle of the board, which invariably had been cracked or cratered. I remember it well :-) >> The documentation clearly said, connect the ribbon cable to the >> controller with the cable exiting AWAY from the board. But there were >> any number of folks that went the long way around, and put a great >> deal of effort into bending the cable sharply where it exited the ID >> connection, so that they could plug it into the controller card >> backwards. Or the right way round, but one pin displaced, sometimes. >> This usually resulted in a spectacular failure of the '125. > > Did that failure take out anything else, or did replacing only the > 74LS125 solve the problem? 9 times out of 10, that was the only replacement required. If you were unlucky, you might also lose the MC3470, but I only ever had to replace about half a dozen of those. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 18:51:58 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:51:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <409111.33118.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> some pcs didnt have dma. Tandy 1000...IBM Peanut...Sanyo MBC-5xx too IIRC... --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I thought every PC (maaning IBM compatible) did that. The floppy system > > in the PC. XT and ZT has a DMA channel associated with it. You ask it to > > read some secotyors from the current track, it does so and transfers the > > data into memory, then gives you an iterrupt when it's done. > Well on some computers, like the COCO the IRQ only is used > to end the cpu polling loop for the floppy.Since the default > OS is CP/M err MSDOS I expect the hardware is not used effectivly. > > > > I know for a fact that other tasks carry on running on this (slow) linux > > machine when it's doing floppy drive operations. > > > > -tony > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Feb 4 18:52:05 2007 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:52:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple Disk II, was Re: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C6095F.27337425@rain.org> References: <45C6095F.27337425@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Feb 2007, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Lobo Drives made drives for, among others, the Apple II including a neat box > with an 8" floppy drive and an 8" hard disk. They were given to me to sell on > Ebay, and then the guy passed away (same person who gave me all the Poly stuff, > and lots of other things before he died.) I have them set aside until either I > have the time to find out more about how to hook it up, or someone drops by who > knows what they are doing. My suspicion is that the hard drives probably have a > lot of interesting things from Lobo Drives, hence my caution. And I *think* I > have the controller card, but again, I need to research this stuff out. I have a Lobo 8" drive controller and (I believe) the software also. I think it was one of the earliest A2 peripherals to use DMA and was developed in the days of the II+. Mine never worked properly on a 2e (don't recall if I tried it on II or II+). Steve -- From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Feb 4 18:52:25 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:52:25 +0000 Subject: Ampex Timeline In-Reply-To: <200702041815.l14IEXiV050280@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702041815.l14IEXiV050280@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 4 Feb, 2007, at 18:15, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:52:33 -0500 > From: "Bob Bradlee" > Subject: Re: Ampex Timeline > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200702041754.l14Hsgkx054201 at keith.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:32:29 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Another possiblity--the Ampex tape drives wouldn't have been standard >> at the time; it would have been IBM 729's. > > Although there is little online about the earlt Ampex drives > because they were goverment only. > > The following id from the Ampex timeline: > > 1950 Ampex introduces the first "dedicated" instrumentation > recorder, Model 500, built for the U.S. Navy. > > 1954 Ampex introduces the first multi-track audio recorder derived > from multi-track data recording > technology. > > Some food for thought ... > > Bob The machine in question was I understand 1959/60. I don't know the official release dates for the digital Ampex drives but ICT used them on the ICT1301 which was released in 1962, though the tape drives were not immediately available. These were one inch tape drives (Ampex TM1 I think) and half inch drives (Ampex TM4). These used the aluminium spools with three notches in the hub not the later industry standard expanding hub type spools. The one inch tapes were 16 track and the half inch tapes were 10 track. They used thyrotron valves to fire the pinch rollers. The TM4s also had a version used on the Lyons Leo computers of that era, these used the same tape spools but with a small expanding hub, like a scaled down version of the 7 track and 9 track ones. Professional reel to reel audio equipment used a quarter inch version of the same spools until recently, or maybe they still do for all I know about audio recorders. By the way, as Dr Who has been deemed to be on topic: ICT 1301 consoles appeared on Dr Who and Blakes 7. I think I saw one in a James Bond film too, but I have been trying to find which one but have so far drawn a blank. In the villains HQ there was a big round room on two floors and in the middle were some control panels, the whole place got blown up as is normal in a 007 film. Must have been filmed about the time 1301s were being scrapped 1965 to the early 70s. Roger Holmes (owner of an ICT 1301 for over 30 years) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 18:59:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:59:25 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C660CB.807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <45C660CB.807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45C610ED.14152.56F1449@cclist.sydex.com> > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I thought every PC (maaning IBM compatible) did that. The floppy system > > in the PC. XT and ZT has a DMA channel associated with it. You ask it to > > read some secotyors from the current track, it does so and transfers the > > data into memory, then gives you an iterrupt when it's done. It might be stretching the term "compatible", but IIRC, the Peanut didn't use DMA for disk access. On a side somewhat related topic, how many disk controllers had their own track buffer (like hard disk controllers)? The Microsolutions Backpack is the only one that I can think of for the PC. The C64/128 drives probably had them, also. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 4 19:02:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:02:36 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 (was: Arty computers (was: Re: PDP-11/70 inYates Center, KS) In-Reply-To: References: , <45C5ED27.21360.4E3570D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45C611AC.7598.571FCF3@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 17:23, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Not at Langly While I did some prowling around Area B at WPAFB during the 70's, all I ever saw of that ilk was IBM 7080s (used by AFLC). Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 19:03:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:03:19 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: <45C67A4D.1060303@atarimuseum.com> References: <45C672DC.2000209@sbcglobal.net> <45C67A4D.1060303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45C68257.4010302@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Whole %&*^ !!! That's right in my backyard (so to speak, I will > contact the seller and see what could be arranged, BTW if anyone is > looking to get something form that seller and needs assistance, I would > be happy to pick stuff up, pallete it and drop it off at Forward Air in > Newburgh, NY to ship to your local airport hub and you can pick up from > there, a lot cheaper then North American and other movers. I thought East Aurora was up by Buffalo? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 4 19:15:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:15:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C610ED.14152.56F1449@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 4, 7 04:59:25 pm" Message-ID: <200702050115.l151FU4Z015310@floodgap.com> [track buffers] > The C64/128 drives probably had them, also. Sectors, yes, but not a whole track. I think the Amiga buffered entire tracks, however. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 4 19:18:24 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:18:24 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: <45C68257.4010302@gmail.com> References: <45C672DC.2000209@sbcglobal.net> <45C67A4D.1060303@atarimuseum.com> <45C68257.4010302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C685E0.6020503@atarimuseum.com> Ugggh, yeah I checked the distance with Mapquest, thats a nice little ride... Not much worse then going up to NH which I'm doing shortly to photo some equipment with a friend, but still that's a bit of a ride too :-) Curt Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Whole %&*^ !!! That's right in my backyard (so to speak, I will >> contact the seller and see what could be arranged, BTW if anyone is >> looking to get something form that seller and needs assistance, I >> would be happy to pick stuff up, pallete it and drop it off at >> Forward Air in Newburgh, NY to ship to your local airport hub and you >> can pick up from there, a lot cheaper then North American and other >> movers. > > I thought East Aurora was up by Buffalo? > > Peace... Sridhar > From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Feb 4 19:24:13 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:24:13 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive for Heathkit 3400 ? References: <200702042131.l14LVUq5063392@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000501c748c4$59052dd0$0201a8c0@hal9000> I've been looking into various cheap / easy ways to interface a floppy drive to various projects ( i.e. Heathkit ETA-3400 ) for a while. My current path is pointing towards using an external USB floppy drive ( $16 USD ) and a device from GHI Electronics called a USBwiz ( $60 USD ). This device will let you talk to ThumbDrives, SD cards and other USB " stuff " ( supports FAT16 and FAT32 ) through a very simple interface that a PIC chip has enough horsepower ( computing power ) to drive, so the 6502 in the Heathkit should be okay. I welcome the wisdom of this community as to this pursuit before I commit hard earned dollars to said project ( or not ... ). What do you guys think ( and yes I already know I'm lazy and should build my own hardware .... ). Best regards, Steven C. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 4 19:40:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:40:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20070204171455.L13984@shell.lmi.net> > stuck around, warts and all, for a long, long time. Longer than the > TRS-80, and longer than the PET, its true contemporaries. Even though > the remembered "my computer is better than yours " battles might > have been between the Atari 800, the Apple II, and the C-64, only > one of those machines was around in 1977. The others had faded > away. Typo? Did you mean some other year? The Atari 800, and the earlier 400, the C64, and earlier Vic 20, TI99, etc. did not exist in 1977. As witness this thread, the "my computer is better than yours" battles have never stopped. (And one of the only ways to end a "Ford v Chevy" battle is to introduce a Yugo! ("ALL HAIL THE KIM-1!")) The early battles were on multiple fronts; there was the "my S100 v yours", and the "my mass-marketed home computer is better" between Apple, TRS80 and Pet. The ones that you are mentioning here are the much later "My 6502 computer is better" between Apple, Commodore, and Atari. To me, the truly amazing thing is that Apple attempted to compete head to head with IBM, and survived! By analogy, I think that I could last almost one second in a ring with Mike Tyson. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 20:18:59 2007 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:18:59 -0600 Subject: The IBM Tree and Tube computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At this point in my life I guess I shouldn't worry about it, but after almost 30 years with a clearance the reaction is embedded in the base of the skull and you find it very difficult to go against it, like convincing yourself to inhale when you are underwater with no SCUBA gear. You just don't talk. As to the Computers name, I have been thinking about this and this is what I think. Its true that I am 70 so my memory COULD be faulty....except that when you are 70 you DO remember the names, you may not remember the color of her hair or what she wore beneath her blouse, but you remember her name and all her peripherals. On 2/4/07, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 5/2/07 00:23, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > > > I can say, it was USAF Special Weapons but cant say further. It wasn't > > mentioned in a magazine, it was in a book but the program was not > revealed, > > just that the computer was used and that it was Cold War espionage. I > knew > > what it was about because I had information not in the article. No one > else > > would have known unless they were part of the project. I assume its > been > > declassified but I have never seen anything about it in print or on the > news > > so maybe it hasn't been. Personally I prefer Corpus Christi, Texas to > > Leavenworth, Kansas...especially at this time of the year. > > Hasn't all the good stuff been declassified by now? I know that the codes > for launching the Bad Stuff in the cold war were never set by anyone so > the > launch code for a nuke was 0000 if punched into the right device; this > info > is live and direct from the web so it MUST be true :) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 20:36:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <360226.38963.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> the Peanut was a *mostly compatible*, no? I thought the main hindrance to running pwogwams was the lack of a 2nd floppy or hard drive... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 20:36:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:36:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <678359.67781.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> the Peanut was a *mostly compatible*, no? I thought the main hindrance to running pwogwams was the lack of a 2nd floppy or hard drive... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 20:43:39 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 18:43:39 -0800 Subject: Ampex Timeline In-Reply-To: References: <200702041815.l14IEXiV050280@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45C699DB.2010107@sbcglobal.net> I have an ad from a March, 1956 magazine for an AMPEX digital tape system on my web site: http://www.dvq.com/ads/ampex_sa_3_56.jpg So the some digital transports were available before 1959. Bob Roger Holmes wrote: > > On 4 Feb, 2007, at 18:15, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:52:33 -0500 >> From: "Bob Bradlee" >> Subject: Re: Ampex Timeline >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: <200702041754.l14Hsgkx054201 at keith.ezwind.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:32:29 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Another possiblity--the Ampex tape drives wouldn't have been standard >>> at the time; it would have been IBM 729's. >> >> >> Although there is little online about the earlt Ampex drives because >> they were goverment only. >> >> The following id from the Ampex timeline: >> >> 1950 Ampex introduces the first "dedicated" instrumentation >> recorder, Model 500, built for the U.S. Navy. >> >> 1954 Ampex introduces the first multi-track audio recorder derived >> from multi-track data recording >> technology. >> >> Some food for thought ... >> >> Bob > > > The machine in question was I understand 1959/60. I don't know the > official > release dates for the digital Ampex drives but ICT used them on the > ICT1301 > which was released in 1962, though the tape drives were not immediately > available. These were one inch tape drives (Ampex TM1 I think) and > half inch > drives (Ampex TM4). These used the aluminium spools with three notches > in the hub not the later industry standard expanding hub type spools. > The > one inch tapes were 16 track and the half inch tapes were 10 track. They > used thyrotron valves to fire the pinch rollers. The TM4s also had a > version > used on the Lyons Leo computers of that era, these used the same tape > spools but with a small expanding hub, like a scaled down version of the > 7 track and 9 track ones. Professional reel to reel audio equipment used > a quarter inch version of the same spools until recently, or maybe they > still do for all I know about audio recorders. > > By the way, as Dr Who has been deemed to be on topic: > > ICT 1301 consoles appeared on Dr Who and Blakes 7. I think I saw one in > a James Bond film too, but I have been trying to find which one but > have so > far drawn a blank. In the villains HQ there was a big round room on > two floors > and in the middle were some control panels, the whole place got blown > up as > is normal in a 007 film. Must have been filmed about the time 1301s were > being scrapped 1965 to the early 70s. > > Roger Holmes (owner of an ICT 1301 for over 30 years) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 4 21:27:44 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 19:27:44 -0800 Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen Message-ID: <45C6A430.9803AE01@rain.org> I've got a CBM 8032 that powers up "fine", but the screen is filled with "!" on every other character position. When some letters are repeated, they can change, i.e. "nnnn" becomes "onon" which seems like (without checking the ASCII charts) that the "n" and "!" are ORed to become the "o". Anyone have any ideas what the problem might be? Most of the schematics I have are buried someplace, so I thought I would start here. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 4 21:28:38 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 21:28:38 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org> References: <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C6A466.3080203@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > As strange as it seems, I think we lost a lot of personal > > correspondence when hard disks became the rule on PC systems. > > This is a huge issue amongst archivists. > > "Personal papers" aren't on paper any more, if they exist > at all they are directories full of email. Why is this a "huge issue"? My father made xerox copies of his important papers; I make regular backups. What's changed? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 21:54:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:54:36 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <20070204171455.L13984@shell.lmi.net> References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com> <45C4DBDC.13509.B7C6FC@cclist.sydex.com> <45C56767.600@pacbell.net> <20070204171455.L13984@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2/4/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > stuck around, warts and all, for a long, long time. Longer than the > > TRS-80, and longer than the PET, its true contemporaries. Even though > > the remembered "my computer is better than yours " battles might > > have been between the Atari 800, the Apple II, and the C-64, only > > one of those machines was around in 1977. The others had faded > > away. > > Typo? > Did you mean some other year? > The Atari 800, and the earlier 400, the C64, and earlier Vic 20, TI99, > etc. did not exist in 1977. I did not mean some other year - what I meant was that in the louder battles of the 1980s, between the Atari 800, the Apple II, and the C-64, only the Apple II was around in 1977. The other computers were 1980s technology, not late 1970s technology. > The early battles were on multiple fronts; there was the "my S100 v > yours", and the "my mass-marketed home computer is better" between Apple, > TRS80 and Pet. > > The ones that you are mentioning here are the much later "My 6502 computer > is better" between Apple, Commodore, and Atari. Right. Sort of my point, except I was trying to point out that Apple's offering survived more than one round of "my X is better than your X". -ethan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 22:14:15 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:14:15 -0500 Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen In-Reply-To: <45C6A430.9803AE01@rain.org> References: <45C6A430.9803AE01@rain.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0702042014n43dcfc2ap54c7093ccd251d19@mail.gmail.com> On 04/02/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've got a CBM 8032 that powers up "fine", but the screen is filled with "!" on > every other character position. When some letters are repeated, they can change, > i.e. "nnnn" becomes "onon" which seems like (without checking the ASCII charts) > that the "n" and "!" are ORed to become the "o". Anyone have any ideas what the > problem might be? Most of the schematics I have are buried someplace, so I > thought I would start here. Display RAM problem? Looks like the LSB, could be the UC5 (2114) RAM chip, the 74LS373 latch whos designation I can't make out on the schematic... or the UB4 (74LS244) driver... or any number of other things. Joe. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 22:23:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:23:38 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/4/07, Tony Duell wrote: > There was a CP/M+ for it (the M4 could officially take 128K of RAM, I > believe there were hacks to put 256K chips, not 64K in bank 1...). Interesting. So much I didn't know about the machines at the time (I was programming the C-64 for money at the time, so that took up all my attention). > Mind you, I am not sure why you'd _want_ to run CP/M on it. The 'native' > TRS-DOS 6.x (aka LS-ODS) is a much nicer OS, with loadable device > drivers, some (limited) I/O redirection, a better scripting facility, etc. Because in High School, I couldn't afford a machine that ran CP/M, but I got a chance to use them on occasion. It would have been nice to get some experience on a platform that was in widespread use at the time (although its market share was already shrinking due to the recent release of PC-DOS :-P) > > School, our "Computer Math" class was done with a M3 and M4 running > > TRS-DOS. If I'd known I could have gotten CP/M for it at the time (c. > > The Model 4 will run all Model 3 software, including booting all Model 3 > OSes. If you were running Model 3 TRS-DOS (TRS-DOS 1.x) I can understand > why you'd want to run something else :-) Yep... we all got one disk which worked on either machine. I can't recall the exact version, but 1.something sure sounds familiar. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 00:33:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 22:33:27 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <917634.99955.qm@web53213.mail.yahoo.com>, <20070204171455.L13984@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <45C65F37.12265.6A0DF66@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2007 at 22:54, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right. Sort of my point, except I was trying to point out that > Apple's offering survived more than one round of "my X is better than > your X". Probably due to the aggressive Apple educational program. An Apple in every school. Kids come out of school, they want Apples. Sometimes known as WYLIWYK (What you like is what you know). In retrospect, this was curious, because during the 60's, it was IBM who actively pursued academia with special discounts on big iron. Cheers, Chuck From listmail at athenet.net Sun Feb 4 18:10:21 2007 From: listmail at athenet.net (Tom) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 18:10:21 -0600 Subject: Apple Disk II, was Re: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070204145803.0c7bab70@mail.athenet.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20070204145803.0c7bab70@mail.athenet.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070204180929.0b5ef1e0@mail.athenet.net> At 06:56 PM 2/4/2007 -0500, you wrote: >On Feb 4, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>Before even letting the customer leave the premises, I'd quickly >>take out the four screws that held on the cover and show them the >>blackened spot on the inside of the cover, then show them the >>74LS125 in the middle of the board, which invariably had been >>cracked or cratered. >> >>The documentation clearly said, connect the ribbon cable to the >>controller with the cable exiting AWAY from the board. But there >>were any number of folks that went the long way around, and put a >>great deal of effort into bending the cable sharply where it exited >>the ID connection, so that they could plug it into the controller >>card backwards. >> >>This usually resulted in a spectacular failure of the '125. > > Did that failure take out anything else, or did replacing only the >74LS125 solve the problem? > > -Dave It's been along time-- The one or two times I attempted component level repair, I can't remember what the result was. We did a swap on the board and the customer had to pay for it. >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > > Keeping in touch with childhood memories keeps us believing in life's simplest pleasures like a rainy afternoon, a swingset, and a giant puddle to play in. -- Chrissy Ogden --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Sun Feb 4 19:36:11 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 19:36:11 -0600 Subject: HP 2112A In-Reply-To: <200701241745.l0OHjGl9017038@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: on 1/24/07 11:45 AM, J. David Bryan at jdbryan at acm.org wrote: > On 13 Jan 2007 at 10:00, Richard Lynch wrote: > >> In the front there is the DCPC, Memory Protection, M.E.M. (Memory >> Extension Module), 3 memory cards and Memory Controller. > > Also, there should be a ribbon cable from the DCPC card to the memory-I/O > crossover PCB, and another ribbon cable connecting all of the left-side > connectors on the memory cards and controller (the right-side connectors > are N/C). yes, it has both of those. > > >> Of the 3 optional Control Store modules in the back, the middle one is >> mounted under the CPU, but the other two are not there. > > Looking from the back of the machine, the left-hand control store PCB > should always be present; it contains the base set ROMs and is connected > with a ribbon cable to the left-hand CPU board connector. If you have a > MEM card, then there should be a second control store PCB containing the > DMS instructions. The second and third boards plug into the first and > second boards respectively; no ribbon cables are used. > > If the middle one is present and the left one is not, then either the base > set board is in the wrong location or it's been removed from the machine. > Part numbers on the board and/or ROMs will tell. There are several numbers on the center board: 5080-9740 5060-8380 A-3516-22 809L Here's a photo of its ROMs: http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/ctrl_str_roms.jpg > > >> The back label says "2112A" and lists the following options: >> 12978A (Writeable Control Store Diagnostic) >> 12992B (Disk boot ROM) >> 12992C (Terminal boot ROM) >> I figured out from the bitsavers document and another online document that >> these are the 3 ROM options I saw. > > I've never heard of a 12978A ROM. Is that the part number stamped on the > chip? What document describes this? My assumption about 12978A being installed as a ROM was wrong. The three ROMs all have 12992 on them, the first in light pencil (not visible in the picture below), the others with a label as shown here: http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/opt_roms.jpg Why are U13 and U15 both labeled "80009"? Are they the same chip or is that a date code? I found a manual for the 12978a on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/1000/Diagnostics/12908-90013_Aug-1976.pdf > > >> The paper tape loader ROM is soldered in with the M-series machines, >> according to the online documents I read. > > That's correct. It's always loader number 0. I'm not sure if the paper tape loader ROM is present. U12 is empty - is this where it was supposed to go: http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/u12.jpg One more photo of the numbers on the CPU board: http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/cpu_nums.jpg Richard From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 5 01:23:07 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:23:07 -0500 Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen Message-ID: <01C748CC.B0377060@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message: From: Marvin Johnston Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen I've got a CBM 8032 that powers up "fine", but the screen is filled with "!" on every other character position. When some letters are repeated, they can change, i.e. "nnnn" becomes "onon" which seems like (without checking the ASCII charts) that the "n" and "!" are ORed to become the "o". Anyone have any ideas what the problem might be? Most of the schematics I have are buried someplace, so I thought I would start here. --------------------- My guess would be a stuck bit D0 in UC4 (even chars) or UC6 (odd chars), a 2114, notorious for its failure rate. mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 5 02:24:15 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 00:24:15 -0800 Subject: Arty computers References: <1170322102.32369.14.camel@linux.site> <004f01c74864$d9c36820$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <45C6E9B0.7099901A@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Shannon wrote: > > I worked for Thinking Machines Inc. > > I had the oppertunity to design the system status and margining panel for > the CM1. > > I had to work with an artist, Tamiko was her name if I recall correctly. Tamiko has some web pages and articles about the TMI/CM experience at: http://www.mission-base.com/tamiko/cm/cm-text.htm (Came across the pages a couple years ago, but don't remember why, might have been mentioned previously on the list.) > I had to get the 'look' of the status LED's just 'right', diffused through > some machined > plastic parts. The color, brightness, etc, all were top priority design > issues that the > artist had final say over. > > I think I wound up using some fancy LED's from HP that were very new at the > time > Ultrabright green, shining up from behind the machined plastic bits. A bit > of a counter > point to the rows and rows of red leds. > > Now that was (and is) an artsy machine. > > Some of TMC's artistic work on the CM1 was driven by looking at photos of > some > of the cray machines, like the one with the waterfall cooling system, and > the projected > logo floating in the coolant. > > Clearly Cray won that contest. From ken at seefried.com Mon Feb 5 04:21:28 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:21:28 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <200702050400.l153xksj058897@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702050400.l153xksj058897@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070205102128.947.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Ethan Dicks" > >Ooh... didn't know that the M4 could run CP/M. > I ran "Montezuma" CP/M-80 exclusively on my Model 4P. I did it at first so I could use Turbo Pascal, but decided pretty quickly that I liked it better than TRS-DOS. From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Feb 5 04:46:38 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:46:38 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org> References: <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20070205104638.GA27802@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 04:16:25PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > As strange as it seems, I think we lost a lot of personal > > correspondence when hard disks became the rule on PC systems. > This is a huge issue amongst archivists. > "Personal papers" aren't on paper any more, if they exist > at all they are directories full of email. Surely the big "problem" is that people don't think keeping copies of all the letters they write to their mum is worth bothering with. And they are entirely correct. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david The voices said it's a good day to clean my weapons From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Feb 5 04:50:38 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:50:38 -0500 Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702042345.l14NjqLG068652@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk [mailto:aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:46 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: arty computers > > > > --- "G Manuel (GMC)" wro > te: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > [mailto:aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:59 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: arty computers > > > > **>> snip <<** > > > >Regards, > > >Andrew D. Burton > > >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > >PS. Does anyone know what has happened to > > >the Old Computer Museum? I can't connect to it? > > > > Do you mean www.oldcomputermuseum.com? It works fi > ne > > for me. > > > > Greg > > > > Ok, I can connect, but I get redirected to here: > > http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/files/error.html > > > I'm on dial-up and am from the UK. That shouldn't ma > ke a difference should it??? > > Does anyone know if the site has been altered/ > upgraded recently? > > > Regards, > Andrew D. Burton > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > Try this one and see if it makes a difference for you. http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/default.htm It shouldn't make a difference but then again who knows. Greg Manuel From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Feb 5 06:37:04 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:37:04 -0500 Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen In-Reply-To: <45C6A430.9803AE01@rain.org> Message-ID: <200702051236.l15CaE7K023350@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I've got a CBM 8032 that powers up "fine", but the screen is filled with "!" on > every other character position. When some letters are repeated, they can change, > i.e. "nnnn" becomes "onon" which seems like (without checking the ASCII charts) > that the "n" and "!" are ORed to become the "o". Anyone have any ideas what the > problem might be? Most of the schematics I have are buried someplace, so I > thought I would start here. When you say "powers up fine", do you mean: - Powers up and runs - ie, even though the screen is garbled, you can see characters changing where the ready prompt would be if you press RETURN a few times. (in this case - according to your description, you should see every other character from data output to the screen?) - or - - Powers up and does not catch fire, smoke, blow fuses, but otherwise does not show signs of life. If the former, then cause is most likely display RAM - I've had display rams go in a couple of PETs over the years (iirc they are 2114s). If the latter, the problem could be that the CPU is not getting far enough to clear the screen or going haywire and overwriting the screen at some point in the startup process. Standard debugging - I've had bad DRAMs, ROMs and the odd buffer chip fail in various PETs at various times - shouldn't be too hard to track down. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 5 07:39:52 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:39:52 -0500 Subject: Arty computers Message-ID: <01C74901.386CD540@MSE_D03> >Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:56:01 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: Arty computers >Didn't the GI CP1600 have an external line that, if activated, would >inhibit P-counter increment? I don't know if anyone ever used it for >anything. >Cheers, >Chuck ------------------------ My, what a remarkable memory you have: pin 40, /PCIT (Program Counter Inhibit), also used to output a pulse on execution of an SIN (software interrupt) instruction, apparently used mainly by the control console. mike From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Feb 5 07:11:02 2007 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:11:02 -0000 Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted Message-ID: <002c01c74927$164e9770$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or Model 4? This link should be viewable for a while: http://www.visit4info.com/preview-flash.cfm?vm=0&type=2&adid=41634 Also, a previous ad has featured a CBM PET shaped "mockuter" (mock computer), with the tape deck replaced with an oversized trackball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0nZwyua8Ao Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.25/669 - Release Date: 04/02/2007 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 5 10:13:05 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 08:13:05 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> >> "Personal papers" aren't on paper any more, if they exist >> at all they are directories full of email. > Why is this a "huge issue"? My father made xerox copies of his > important papers; I make regular backups. What's changed? The volatility of the preservation medium, future ability to recover a document in obscure formats, and the sheer volume of digital content vs saved paper. Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? How do you KNOW it hasn't already been corrupted? From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Feb 5 10:45:47 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:45:47 -0500 Subject: HP 2112A In-Reply-To: References: <200701241745.l0OHjGl9017038@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <200702051645.l15GjqKO012473@mail.bcpl.net> On 4 Feb 2007 at 19:36, Richard Lynch wrote: > There are several numbers on the center board: > 5080-9740 > 5060-8380 > A-3516-22 > 809L > Here's a photo of its ROMs: The ROM part numbers and the board number (5060-8380) show that the board is a "Fast FORTRAN Processor II" microcode set. This contains the FFP instructions plus the dynamic mapping instructions (DMI) that work with your MEM board in the front card cage. If that's the only microcode board under your CPU, then you're missing the base instruction set board, which must be present to use the machine. The machine should power up, but the front panel won't work, as that's controlled by microcode on the base set board. This board appears on page VI E-4 of the HP 1000 Engineering and Reference Document, available here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ > The three ROMs all have 12992 on them, the first in light pencil (not > visible in the picture below)... Is it 12992-something? The "something" will indicate what ROM it is. > ...the others with a label as shown here: > > http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/opt_roms.jpg >From the photo, the installed ROMs are: - U36 (ROM #0) 1816-0420 is the 12992K paper tape loader - U16 (ROM #1) is unknown - U15 (ROM #2) 12992-80009 is the 12992C 264x CRT tape cartridge loader - U13 (ROM #3) is the same as #2 U16 does not appear to have an HP part number on it, although your first message said that it was a disc boot loader. The HP part number might be on the underside; you might wish to remove it from the socket to check. Or the fact that the "chip label" is in pencil might indicate that it's a copy of the HP chip that was made by the owner. Or it might be a custom disc boot loader. U15 and U13 are designed to boot from the DC-100 minicartridge tapes that are present in (most) HP 264x-series terminals, e.g., the 2644, 2645, 2647, or 2648. A 12966A or 12968A interface card must be used with these terminals when using the 12992C boot loader ROM. > Why are U13 and U15 both labeled "80009"? Are they the same chip or is > that a date code? Same chip. Section 7 of the "HP 1000 MEF CE Handbook" has tables of board/chip part numbers and associated descriptions that will help to identify these sorts of things: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/5950-3767_M-E-F_CEhbk_Jul84.pdf > I'm not sure if the paper tape loader ROM is present. U12 is empty - is > this where it was supposed to go: > > http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/u12.jpg It's U36, visible in your "opt_roms.jpg" image; see page 13-8 of the CE Handbook above for a locator diagram. > One more photo of the numbers on the CPU board: > > http://home.comcast.net/~richardlynch3/hp/cpu_nums.jpg The board number, 5060-8352, indicates that it is an M-series CPU with date code 1838 (38th week of 1978). -- Dave From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 5 10:46:37 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:46:37 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> References: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> Add to the fact that paper seems to be far more resilient then say CD backups (which I've seen several CD's that I created around 97-98 which are now having problems reading certain sections) and Tape backups of today I wonder if they are truly as high grade as say the old TU78s of the past (I've had my share of readying nearly 1,500 tapes that had been stored in outside storage units for over 10 years - no protection from heat/cold, frost/humidity) Most of them - astoundingly - were still actually readable, however some - even with baking - separated from their transport, others did a major number on the tape heads with globs of sludge as they read, but still over all, the tapes even well past their prime and kept in unbearable conditions, still favored well. I would wonder if todays consumerized backup media would fare as well. While bulky - I have been printing out nearly 9 years worth of email correspondence relating to all of the Atari historical research I've been doing and sorting it out to keep on record, I nearly lost it all due to a sudden HD failure, but fortunately had a backup image on another disk, I don't trust digital based storage for archival purposes. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > >> "Personal papers" aren't on paper any more, if they exist > >> at all they are directories full of email. > > > Why is this a "huge issue"? My father made xerox copies of his > > important papers; I make regular backups. What's changed? > > The volatility of the preservation medium, future ability to recover > a document in obscure formats, and the sheer volume of digital content > vs saved paper. > > Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? How do you KNOW > it hasn't already been corrupted? > > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 5 10:57:06 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:57:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone collect Compugraphic equipment? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 Feb 2007 15:57:16 -0800. <45C672DC.2000209@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <45C672DC.2000209 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Try this one: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200072367851&ssPageNa me=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010 Yep, that's the one. > It's pick-up only and is not strapped to a pallet. I believe he will > take quite a bit less than the buy-it-now price. Every time I've made an offer on stuff that he keeps relisting but doesn't sell, its always automatically rejected. Maybe I'm just not enough of a sucker. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 5 11:09:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:09:48 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:16:25 -0800. <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45C67759.5020501 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > As strange as it seems, I think we lost a lot of personal > > correspondence when hard disks became the rule on PC systems. > > This is a huge issue amongst archivists. > > "Personal papers" aren't on paper any more, if they exist > at all they are directories full of email. People look at me dumbfounded when I tell them that I use a unix shell account for all my email and news postings (and if you've been on this list for the past year or two, you know I send a lot of mail). The answer is simple: the unix machine is continuously backed up and it easily integrates my news/email together into one archive. I have kept a copy of every post/email since 1998 and its been very useful on many occasions to refer to previously sent mail -- particularly when someone contends that I typed something other than I did. I also know that I can gain access to my email from anywhere with a simple telnet client, even when I don't have my laptop accessible to me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 5 11:20:48 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:20:48 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002401c74949$fbcdfe90$4f04010a@uatempname> Al Kossow wrote: > Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? Yes. I regularly ( == when I remember!) backup my email by throwing it all into a zip archive and then that gets written (along with other stuff) to CD, along with an MD5SUM file. I need to compress so that it all fits onto one CD; I wouldn't normally compress stuff that I'm archiving but since I spit it all to CD each month or so I'm hoping I won't ever lose it all (and some of it _is_ offsite). Not that anyone will ever care about my emails and letters ... > How do you KNOW > it hasn't already been corrupted? I don't. But I _will_ when I come to read it. To be honest though I've never yet had a corrupt file read back from a CD. Either the CD was fine or only intact files could be read back (intact == the zip archive tested OK). The reason I always throw an MD5SUM file onto the CD is so that I can test it immediately on a different drive. I think almost all of my hadnful of early "dead" CDs were stillborn rather than cases of infant mortality. I don't know whether Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD, or whatever takes off next) will be any more reliable than DVD (or CD) but at least I'll be able to consolidate all of my existing data onto a handful of disks, so having multiple copies of stuff in different places will be much less painful. Although I remember thinking much the same about CD-R ("650MB? Noone will ever need that much storage ...") My main worry is that there will be NO successor to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. If the entertainment industry decides to go for streamed content, then will the comuter industry be willing to fund the next generation format? What will we all do then? Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 5 11:16:36 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:16:36 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:46:37 -0500. <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <45C75F6D.2080605 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > While bulky - I have been printing out nearly 9 years worth of email > correspondence relating to all of the Atari historical research I've > been doing and sorting it out to keep on record, I nearly lost it all > due to a sudden HD failure, but fortunately had a backup image on > another disk, I don't trust digital based storage for archival purposes. I find that laser printer output tends to stick together after only a few years. Maybe dot matrix would be better? Then there's the issue of density -- most text documents use lots of paper compared to the amount of information on the page. I have been considering the idea of using the page as a large bitmap and simply printing the data onto the bitmap along with checksum/parity information for each row and so-on. This would reduce the bulk but keep the desirable aspects of paper output as an archival medium... Yet it seems like we have this discussion every few months or so and most of us pick the backup medium that suits our tastes even if other people are swearing up and down that it will never be reliable. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 5 11:36:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:36:38 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <002401c74949$fbcdfe90$4f04010a@uatempname> References: <002401c74949$fbcdfe90$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: At 5:20 PM +0000 2/5/07, wrote: >My main worry is that there will be NO successor to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. >If the entertainment industry decides to go for streamed content, >then will the comuter industry be willing to fund the next generation >format? What will we all do then? Well, as we seem to be moving back to the "Mainframe" idea of computing as a utility, where you just have a dumb terminal, and all your apps run on a server somewhere out on the net, your data just might be out there as well. Just think, all your personal information will be under the control of some corporation. I can't get over the feeling this is the real reason behind this trend! Or, you have cloned copies of your data on multiple drives, which is the model I'm leaning towards. Of course there are always tape backups, I backup my VMS server to DLT tapes. The downside is the only way to do this affordably is to buy used equipment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 5 11:45:05 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:45:05 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:36:38 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > [...] Just think, all your personal > information will be under the control of some corporation. Yeah, much better to have a socialist data net where all my personal information will be under the control of the government. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 12:33:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:33:16 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <20070205104638.GA27802@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <45C67759.5020501@bitsavers.org>, <20070205104638.GA27802@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <45C707EC.13380.933E0C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 10:46, David Cantrell wrote: > Surely the big "problem" is that people don't think keeping copies of > all the letters they write to their mum is worth bothering with. And > they are entirely correct. Perhaps, but you're also assuming that one's judgement of things important is exactly correct. The interesting thing about floppies is that it's easier to save the used ones than to cull them. When one migrates hard disk data, the tendency that I've witnessed is for users to make decisions about what to transfer. The case is usually that an operating system is also being upgraded and selective copying is necessary, as old applications will cease to work without all parts (registry, dlls, etc.) being copied--assuming that the application will run at all on the new OS. When I perform migration for friends, I take the old hard drive and mount it, unconnected in the new box if possible, just in case the original judgement was wrong. But that will preserve things only as long as the owner keeps the box around. For some reason, the current trend is to wipe or destroy hard disks rather than to remove them from equipment and encourage the owner to put them in a safe place. I sometimes wish that I'd have kept all of the BBS-hosted email that I exchanged with folks like Don Maslin. But it didn't seem important at the time--and it was on hard disk anyway.. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 5 12:37:06 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:37:06 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> >> Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? > > Yes. I regularly ( == when I remember!) backup my email > by throwing it all into a zip archive and then that gets > written (along with other stuff) to CD, along with an > MD5SUM file. Good for you! Few people do backups. Those that do trust that the data that was copied was done so CORRECTLY. I have to implement a digital archiving mechanism for the CHM software collection, so this is all VERY fresh in my mind right now. The trick is coming up with something that has verification down to the individual archive commit that can be tracked essentially forever. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 12:37:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:37:55 -0800 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <01C74901.386CD540@MSE_D03> References: <01C74901.386CD540@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <45C70903.6933.938224B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 8:39, M H Stein wrote: > My, what a remarkable memory you have: pin 40, /PCIT (Program Counter Inhibit), > also used to output a pulse on execution of an SIN (software interrupt) instruction, > apparently used mainly by the control console. Thanks, but my recollection of this was probably related to wondering what the pin might be used for, perhaps extending the instruction set since the upper 6 bits of each 16 bit instruction word was unused by the CP1600. Had I just read it on a pinout chart without thinking about it, it would have have sunk below the surface of the swamp I call my memory. In conjunction with that, I do recall that GI sold 10-bit ROMs for instruction storage. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 5 12:38:33 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:38:33 +0000 Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted In-Reply-To: <002c01c74927$164e9770$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: On 5/2/07 13:11, "Ade Vickers" wrote: > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or > Model 4? > It's a dual-drive 3, the M4 is white isn't it? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 5 12:46:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:46:45 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:37:06 -0800. <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45C77952.8050609 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I have to implement a digital archiving mechanism for the > CHM software collection, so this is all VERY fresh in my > mind right now. What do government and corporate data archives do? Surely a long-lived company like IBM has already had to deal with this problem? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From micheladam at theedge.ca Mon Feb 5 13:05:54 2007 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:05:54 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly Message-ID: <2f1897842751.45c71da2@theedge.ca> John, I have a real Industrial-11 console I could check with, if you can set up a version of the picture with that console. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A. Dundas III" Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:53 pm Subject: Re: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly > At 3:17 PM -0500 2/2/07, Bill Pechter wrote: > >I'd love to see the Dec DataSystem 570 graphic... > > Easy: just run the program, use the Preferences menu item, select > Console, click on DataSystem 570, whoosh, the console window will > change. > > BTW, someone with a real 570, or an Industrial-11, can make sure I > got those right. I have only (!) a "regular" one to measure against. > > John > From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 13:06:29 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:06:29 -0600 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? Message-ID: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> While the subject of *removing* diskette labels has cropped up before (for example, http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-October/003294.html), I don't think I've seen any discussion on where to obtain *new* ones. I'm setting up a PCjr system for a friend and would like to prepare a nice set of software for him, but I have no labels. A while ago, I tried generic Avery mailing labels that I thought would work, but after a few months the adhesive dried up and they all fell off. Any suggestions? Newly-created sources preferred; I tried some old labels in "new old stock" I have but after 20 years they're dead on arrival; they don't stick as soon as you pull them off their backing. On a related note, what's the best adhesive to re-apply labels that have fallen off? I have some commercial software (games, etc.) where the label is historically relevant and I'd like to re-attach it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 5 13:10:23 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:10:23 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <45C7811F.9080401@bitsavers.org> > What do government and corporate data archives do? > Surely a long-lived company like IBM has already had to deal with this > problem? They deal with the problem by throwing things away. There are essentially no corporate archives of software older than a few decades. This goes back to the discussions here a while back about companies discarding software after a product's life ends. One of the things I've been disturbed to discover is CHM appears to be one of the few institutions who are attempting to archive software. Corporate archives today are essentially all paper or microform. Trying to deal with digital content is not a solved problem there. If you look at the literature, they are only thinking in terms of documents, not software, with the exception of trying to preserve some subset of software needed for document recovery. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 13:27:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:27:22 -0800 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 13:06, Jim Leonard wrote: > While the subject of *removing* diskette labels has cropped up before > (for example, > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-October/003294.html), I > don't think I've seen any discussion on where to obtain *new* ones. I'm > setting up a PCjr system for a friend and would like to prepare a nice > set of software for him, but I have no labels. A while ago, I tried > generic Avery mailing labels that I thought would work, but after a few > months the adhesive dried up and they all fell off. Any suggestions? > Newly-created sources preferred; I tried some old labels in "new old > stock" I have but after 20 years they're dead on arrival; they don't > stick as soon as you pull them off their backing. I've got a big stock of old diskette labels and most are still quite usable. I've used the 33-to-a-sheet Avery laser labels for a very long time and have thousands of diskettes so labeled, with none having the label peeling off. Note that these labels are not classified as "removable"--you'll destroy the label before you can peel it off. > On a related note, what's the best adhesive to re-apply labels that have > fallen off? I have some commercial software (games, etc.) where the > label is historically relevant and I'd like to re-attach it. How about Scotch 77 aerosol adhesive? It doesn't appear to penetrate through paper and adheres very well. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 13:40:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 11:40:22 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7811F.9080401@bitsavers.org> References: <45C7811F.9080401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C717A6.20527.9714EBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 11:10, Al Kossow wrote: > > What do government and corporate data archives do? > > > Surely a long-lived company like IBM has already had to deal with this > > problem? > > They deal with the problem by throwing things away. There are essentially > no corporate archives of software older than a few decades. This goes back > to the discussions here a while back about companies discarding software > after a product's life ends. When it comes to business records, it's often to the firm's advantage to strictly observe the "statute of limitations" rule and shred everything after 7 years. Records older than 7 years can be subpoenaed to demonstrate a pattern of behavior. Best not to have the old stuff around. Weyehauser runs a successful mobile operation here, where a large tractor-trailer rig is a "we shred at your place of business" operation. Yesterday's evidence becomes tomorrow's grocery bags. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Feb 5 13:41:28 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:41:28 -0500 Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for a friend Message-ID: <200702051941.l15JfS7J018440@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, a friend would like to buy an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for her husband. She asked me to help. Apparently he has fond memories of them. I've seen these (long ago) and used one once but really have no clue. Are they obtainable? Anyone have one they want to sell? Any pointers or advice appreciated... thanks! -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 14:24:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:24:39 -0600 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a big stock of old diskette labels and most are still quite > usable. I've used the 33-to-a-sheet Avery laser labels for a very > long time and have thousands of diskettes so labeled, with none > having the label peeling off. Note that these labels are not > classified as "removable"--you'll destroy the label before you can > peel it off. Cool, can you tell me what the Avery "number" is for them? (should be on the box) 33 to a sheet is not #5197 (which are quite exorbitantly priced for some crazy reason) but if you've used something that works for you, I'd like to know the number so I can duplicate. On a related note, how about write-protect tabs? > How about Scotch 77 aerosol adhesive? It doesn't appear to penetrate > through paper and adheres very well. I'll try it, thanks! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 14:29:44 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:29:44 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> References: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C793B8.2020203@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? How do you KNOW > it hasn't already been corrupted? Yes, and with 5% parity, so I should be able to recover up to 5% loss. I'm an archivist too, you know :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 14:32:02 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:32:02 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> References: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45C79442.1030007@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > backups (which I've seen several CD's that I created around 97-98 which > are now having problems reading certain sections) and Tape backups of > today I wonder if they are truly as high grade as say the old TU78s of That's why you routinely transfer from old medium to new medium every 5-10 years. Just last night I dumped 7 CDROMs to .ISO images and stored all of them onto a single DVD-ROM; then made a 2nd copy and stored that somewhere else. In five to ten years, I'll transfer the DVD-ROM onto some new medium. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 14:35:59 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:35:59 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > >> Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? > > > > Yes. I regularly ( == when I remember!) backup my email > > by throwing it all into a zip archive and then that gets > > written (along with other stuff) to CD, along with an > > MD5SUM file. > > Good for you! Yes, but the md5sum will only detect corruption, not correct it. I use winrar with parity (what it calls "recovery info") set to 5%, and if I have gigabytes to archive over several mediums, I use quickpar http://www.quickpar.org.uk/ to generate the parity info. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 5 14:56:50 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:56:50 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence References: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> <45C79442.1030007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <005201c74968$288352f0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > backups (which I've seen several CD's that I created around 97-98 which > > are now having problems reading certain sections) and Tape backups of > > today I wonder if they are truly as high grade as say the old TU78s of > > That's why you routinely transfer from old medium to new medium every > 5-10 years. > > Just last night I dumped 7 CDROMs to .ISO images and stored all of them > onto a single DVD-ROM; then made a 2nd copy and stored that somewhere > else. In five to ten years, I'll transfer the DVD-ROM onto some new medium. > -- I do the same thing but also keep the original media. I dumped a few hundred Colorado 120MB tapes to a bunch of cdroms years ago, and will dump those cdrom to dvdr soon. The data on the CDs is in directories referencing the tape number so I can go back and dump the tape again if the cd gets lost or damaged. The problem with putting floppy images on a DVD is that if you lose or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data (and the time involved archiving it). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 14:54:47 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:54:47 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7811F.9080401@bitsavers.org> References: <45C7811F.9080401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > One of the things I've been disturbed to discover is CHM appears to be one > of the few institutions who are attempting to archive software. CHM is a fairly unique institution, that is why. There are only a handful of computer museums that are run like museums. Many "computer museums" are just glorified users groups, informal circles of friends, or just guys that like hoarding machines and docs. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 15:02:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:02:06 -0800 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 14:24, Jim Leonard wrote: > Cool, can you tell me what the Avery "number" is for them? (should be > on the box) 33 to a sheet is not #5197 (which are quite exorbitantly > priced for some crazy reason) but if you've used something that works > for you, I'd like to know the number so I can duplicate. I just had a look and they're not Avery, but Quill--a discount office supplies place. What we've been using have been Quill 901-7-20401, but that's a lot of labels. Basically, any "copier label" seems to do well. Probably any big-box office supplies store will have their own brand. http://www11.quillcorp.com/Catalog/Browse/Sku.asp?PageType=1&sku=01272 9&EFFORT_CODE=901&FIND_NUMBER=720401#ProductDetails > On a related note, how about write-protect tabs? Eh, now there you've got me for a good solution. There are foil labels (such as return address labels) that should work, but they're not all that removable. OTOH, there are paper labels that are removable, but they don't stick worth a darn to a floppy jacket. Cheers, Chuck From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Feb 5 15:07:42 2007 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:07:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: <2f1897842751.45c71da2@theedge.ca> References: <2f1897842751.45c71da2@theedge.ca> Message-ID: Due to overwhelming demand (OK, two people asked), here are some quick screen shots from the program. Traditional /70: Industrial-11: DataSystem 570: So if you actually have one of the last two, feel free to suggest how to improve the displays. BTW, the lamp test switch does work. John From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 5 15:13:36 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:13:36 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> > The problem with putting floppy images on a DVD is that if you lose > or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data Well, rule #1 is never have a single copy of backup data. Rule #2 is have an off-site copy. That single DVD is going to be a heck of a lot easier to migrate to the next generation of media than trying to re-read those floppies again (if they are still even readable). A single copy of something on aging media is a problem I face at CHM. It's what I call a 'latent archive'. If you don't actually RECOVER the data on an old tape or disk, you can't be assured that you actually have anything other than the physical object. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 15:34:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:34:36 -0800 Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com> I just had a thought about another possible alternative for write- protect tabs. How about the foil tape used in the construction trades, such as 3M 425? I seem to recall that the adhesive on this stuff is pretty heavy-bodied and should stick well, but be easy to remove. Any thoughts? Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Feb 5 15:14:58 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:14:58 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive for Heathkit 3400 ? In-Reply-To: <000501c748c4$59052dd0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <200702042131.l14LVUq5063392@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070205155444.04385e58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Steven Canning may have mentioned these words: >I've been looking into various cheap / easy ways to interface a floppy drive >to various projects ( i.e. Heathkit ETA-3400 ) for a while. My current path >is pointing towards using an external USB floppy drive ( $16 USD ) and a >device from GHI Electronics called a USBwiz ( $60 USD ). This device will >let you talk to ThumbDrives, SD cards and other USB " stuff " ( supports >FAT16 and FAT32 ) Does that USBWiz support FAT12? That would be needed to actually deal with floppies; otherwise, you'd have to roll your own FAT12 driver, and that might be a touch outside the Heathkit 3400's memory capacity unless you have the expansion board (or hacked in more memory on the system). > through a very simple interface that a PIC chip has >enough horsepower ( computing power ) to drive, so the 6502 in the Heathkit >should be okay. If by "6502" you actually meant "6800" ;-) [1], I'd want to remind you that they're clocked under 1 Mhz - I think mine has a 500KHz, but my memory's fuzzy... A lot of the PICs are clocked at 4+Mhz, IIRC; tho I've never tinkered with the PICs, but I've built an AVR board once... > I welcome the wisdom of this community as to this pursuit >before I commit hard earned dollars to said project ( or not ... ). What do >you guys think ( and yes I already know I'm lazy and should build my own >hardware .... ). I'd have to ask the question: what would be the point of it (being focused on the 3400 trainer) - the rascal's only got... uh.... 1K RAM unmodified? What could you build to diddle with floppies that would be easier than hacking in a UART and sending/receiving over the serial port to the PC? I "trained" on these in college, and that was a project that we had to do - wire up a UART on each trainer, and send/receive info between Heathkits. If you're looking for an embedded system, would it not be easier to snag a nice cheap CoCo2 w/64K RAM/16+K ROM and hack on it, instead of trying to build up such a minimal piece of hardware? Keep in mind, I *love* my Heathkit 3400... ;-) Just my thoughts... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] or variant - IIRC, mine has a 6802; it has a built-in timer or somesuch... but is 6800 compatible inside and out. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 5 16:07:38 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:07:38 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <003801c74972$0fb5f1b0$4f04010a@uatempname> Jim Leonard wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? >> > >> > Yes. I regularly ( == when I remember!) backup my email >> > by throwing it all into a zip archive and then that gets >> > written (along with other stuff) to CD, along with an > MD5SUM >> file. >> >> Good for you! > > Yes, but the md5sum will only detect corruption, not correct it. I > use winrar with parity (what it calls "recovery info") set to 5%, and > if I have gigabytes to archive over several mediums, I use quickpar > http://www.quickpar.org.uk/ to generate the parity info. As I said, most of the CDs and DVDs that have failed have been entirely unreadable (except usually for the TOC). That suggests to me that no reasonable recovery mechanism exists (given just one exemplar of the data in question). I might be wrong (my sample size of dead media is statistically insignificant as I have a handful of dead CDs and one dead DVDs out of a total in the hundreds), but I think I'm better off sticking with a simple checksum and writing multiple copies of the media (or, as with my email, having so many copies around that losing one costs me nothing ... given that I also keep all that email on disk _and_ regularly copy to an "online backup" on another disk). So for stuff that I backup and care about I rely on the checksums to tell me that my local copy is OK and I rely on having another copy (or copies) handy in case the media goes bad. My only aim is to try to ensure that I can get to the stuff for as long as I care to get to the stuff. If I wanted to make sure the stuff was still available for future generations I would have to do a lot more. For a start I would have to make sure that someone else has a clue what is backed up and where it might be and why it might matter. That last one is my major problem :-) Antonio From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 5 16:25:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:25:12 -0600 Subject: Some HP paper tapes found Message-ID: <007c01c74974$833a0480$6600a8c0@BILLING> I just found 13 cases of HP paper tapes that I had forgotten about. Either I have a large cluttered basement, or I found them a week ago and just have really bad memory so I keep finding them again ;) Perhaps both. In any case, they are mostly DOS III, DOS-M, and RJE related. I noted the DOS stuff had system generation tapes too at the least. There's some BCS and diag tapes too. If anyone is desperately looking for tapes in that area of interest, let me know and I'll make a list of what's there. Jay West From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Feb 5 16:20:27 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:20:27 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C7ADAB.80300@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > > The problem with putting floppy images on a DVD is that if you lose > > or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data > > Well, rule #1 is never have a single copy of backup data. > Rule #2 is have an off-site copy. rule 3 which you have touched on, but not made a rule is to actually test the data, preferably on another device than the one you backed it up on. I am amazed at the number of backups that are incomplete, or written on a misaligned device and that device dies, and the data is recoverable only with great difficulty. Also had more problems with multi volume backups where the software prompted for the additional media, and the operators or backup people took that as an option, not a requirement and only had one volume of a multi volume backup. jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 5 16:50:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:50:12 -0500 Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for a friend In-Reply-To: <200702051941.l15JfS7J018440@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200702051941.l15JfS7J018440@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1C284E07-7EFF-4759-9425-0AE34DE84736@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > a friend would like to buy an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for her husband. She > asked me to help. Apparently he has fond memories of them. > > I've seen these (long ago) and used one once but really have no clue. They're really neat machines. > Are they obtainable? Anyone have one they want to sell? > > Any pointers or advice appreciated... thanks! They are around. I have one here but I'll hang onto it, as I regret having gotten rid of my original one years ago, and someone here was generous enough to give me one. They can be had with a little hunting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 5 16:51:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:51:07 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C717A6.20527.9714EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C7811F.9080401@bitsavers.org> <45C717A6.20527.9714EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <94FB4FEC-92BC-450B-912A-5292668C7A90@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2007, at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> What do government and corporate data archives do? >> >>> Surely a long-lived company like IBM has already had to deal with >>> this >>> problem? >> >> They deal with the problem by throwing things away. There are >> essentially >> no corporate archives of software older than a few decades. This >> goes back >> to the discussions here a while back about companies discarding >> software >> after a product's life ends. > > When it comes to business records, it's often to the firm's advantage > to strictly observe the "statute of limitations" rule and shred > everything after 7 years. Records older than 7 years can be > subpoenaed to demonstrate a pattern of behavior. Best not to have > the old stuff around. Well, best for companies to BEHAVE THEMSELVES in the first place, but I guess that won't be happening anytime soon, at least not in America, Inc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 5 16:54:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:54:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I just had a thought about another possible alternative for write- > protect tabs. > How about the foil tape used in the construction trades, such as 3M > 425? I seem to recall that the adhesive on this stuff is pretty > heavy-bodied and should stick well, but be easy to remove. howzbout regular electrical tape? For a while 20 years ago, there were oversize vinyl write protect tabs that worked much better than the paper or foil ones. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 5 17:01:36 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:01:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted Message-ID: <200702052301.l15N1Zuh028740@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ade Vickers w rote: > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, i s > that a TRS Model 3 or > Model 4? > > This link should be viewable for a while: > > http://www.visit4info.com/preview-flash.cfm?vm=0&t ype=2&adid=41634 > > > Also, a previous ad has featured a CBM PET shaped > "mockuter" (mock > computer), with the tape deck replaced with an > oversized trackball: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0nZwyua8Ao > > > Cheers, > Ade. > hehe, I saw the first advert only the other day and wondered what it was. Unfortunately the writing was too blurred by the disk drives :( I recall the PET one too. That was showing around the time of The IT Crowd (UK, Channel 4) on t errestrial TV. I spotted what looked to be a real PET in the corner by the entrance in that. That was funny, and even more funnier for computer enthusiasts (I assume we don't call ourselfs computers geeks/nerds? *ducks*). Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 5 17:04:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:04:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <2f1897842751.45c71da2@theedge.ca> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2007, at 4:07 PM, John A. Dundas III wrote: > Due to overwhelming demand (OK, two people asked), here are some > quick screen shots from the program. > > Traditional /70: > > > Industrial-11: > > > DataSystem 570: > > > So if you actually have one of the last two, feel free to suggest > how to improve the displays. BTW, the lamp test switch does work. I'll check this against my 570 tonight. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 5 17:08:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:08:04 -0800 Subject: Some HP paper tapes found Message-ID: <45C7B8D4.7010001@bitsavers.org> > If anyone is desperately looking for tapes in that area of interest, let me > know and I'll make a list of what's there. An inventory with part numbers and date codes would be useful to find out what still exists. I need to bug Jeff Moffatt about this as well. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 5 16:59:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:59:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted In-Reply-To: <002c01c74927$164e9770$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> from "Ade Vickers" at Feb 5, 7 01:11:02 pm Message-ID: > > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or > Model 4? Yes :-). Unfotunately I've only seen said advert on a monochrome TV, so I can't tell you which it is (the M3 is grey, the M4 is white). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 5 16:47:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:47:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen In-Reply-To: <45C6A430.9803AE01@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Feb 4, 7 07:27:44 pm Message-ID: > > > I've got a CBM 8032 that powers up "fine", but the screen is filled > with "!" on > every other character position. When some letters are repeated, they > can change, > i.e. "nnnn" becomes "onon" which seems like (without checking the > ASCII charts) > that the "n" and "!" are ORed to become the "o". Anyone have any ideas > what the > problem might be? Most of the schematics I have are buried someplace, so I > thought I would start here. It's been a long time since I've worked on a PET, but some details have stuck in my mind. The first (obvious?) thing is that it appears that the LSB of some locations in screen memory is stuck in the '1'' state. That would turn a blnk into a '!' and a 'n' into an 'o' even in PETSCII Now, I seem to remember that on 80 column PETs, the 2K video memory is made up of 4 1K*4 chips and that alternate characters are stored in each pair of chips (one pair of chips stores all the chracters in odd-numbered locations on the screen the other pair the characters in even-numbered locations). That would explain why you have problems with alternate characters. And you guessed it,. Those RAMs are 2114s, a chip well-known around here for failing in oadd ways. Without the scheamtics (and I have them _somewhere_, they should be on the web (does funet.fi still exist?)) I can;t be more specific. But I'd gerab said schematics, find out which 2114 is at fault and change it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 5 16:39:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:39:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <409111.33118.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 4, 7 04:51:58 pm Message-ID: > > some pcs didnt have dma. Tandy 1000...IBM > Peanut...Sanyo MBC-5xx too IIRC... Correct (well, it was option in the Tandy 1000, it was included on the RAM expansion board). I would also claim the Sanyo MBC-5xx was not a PC-compatible. Yes it ran MS-DOS, but it wouldn't boot an IBM PC disk AFAIK. Anyway, the fact that there are machines out there, even machines that will boot an IBM PC disk, that don't have DMA doesn't invalidate my comment that the IBM PC, XT and AT, and (most?) compattbles do use DNA to transfer data from the floppy controller and can carry on processing while a flippy disk operation is taking place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 5 17:05:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:05:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 5, 7 06:38:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/2/07 13:11, "Ade Vickers" wrote: > > > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or > > Model 4? > > > > It's a dual-drive 3, the M4 is white isn't it? Yes. Unless you upgraded an M3 to an M4 (this was actually offered by Radio Shack at one point). That was a CPU board and keyboard replacement, but you kept the old CRT + driver board, drives, disk controller, PSUs, RS232 board and case. So it was possible to end up with a grey-cased machine that was functiuonally an M4. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 17:13:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:13:27 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C74997.3886.A3461C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 13:13, someone wrote to Al Kossow: > > The problem with putting floppy images on a DVD is that if you lose > > or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data Here's where I get uneasy. Judging from my own experience with DVD-R type media, I have the suspicion that DVD-R media is probably less reliable in the long term than some forms of CD-R. I don't see CD- capable drives going away anytime soon, as there's a vast ocean of recorded music in that format; so the mechanism at least will be with us for a long time. For archiving our stuff and our customers' data, we use Mitsui/MAM-A "gold on gold" CD-R media. Mitsui claims that the storage life of the dyes used is in excess of 300 years. I can but surmise that it's our best bet. While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just "pushing" the technology a bit. Think about it this way. Would you have been better or worse off archiving your old DS2D 3.5" floppies to 3.5" DSHD or DSED? I know from experience that 8" floppies are easily good for 30 years; I'm no so sure about more "modern" floppies. I'd be surprised if more than half of a brand-new 15-year old box of DSED floppies formatted up error-free. One of these days I'll give it a try. Storage for CD-Rs in stlil in styrene jewel cases. We'll occasionally use PVC cases as mailers (they survive the rigors of the USPS better), but we advise customers to use traditional styrene cases for storage. From what I've read on the archivists' list, some PVC material has been found to outgas chlorine. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 5 17:33:43 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:33:43 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:51:07 -0500. <94FB4FEC-92BC-450B-912A-5292668C7A90@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <94FB4FEC-92BC-450B-912A-5292668C7A90 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > Well, best for companies to BEHAVE THEMSELVES in the first place, > but I guess that won't be happening anytime soon, at least not in > America, Inc. Nor anywhere else that organizations are run by humans. The honor system doesn't scale. That's why (unfortunately) we need cops. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 5 17:35:31 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:35:31 -0500 Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200702051835.31466.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 February 2007 17:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I just had a thought about another possible alternative for write- > > protect tabs. > > How about the foil tape used in the construction trades, such as 3M > > 425? I seem to recall that the adhesive on this stuff is pretty > > heavy-bodied and should stick well, but be easy to remove. > > howzbout regular electrical tape? Indeed, I was just going to suggest a roll of black vinyl electrical tape. It's best to use a good 3M roll, rather than the cheap $0.50/roll junk you can buy, also. There's a noticeable difference between the cheap stuff and the "expensive" stuff, and the more expensive stuff really is worth the price difference, in adhesion, flexibility, durability, and thickness. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 17:47:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:47:18 -0800 Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45C75186.31853.A535F84@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 14:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > howzbout regular electrical tape? > > For a while 20 years ago, there were oversize vinyl write protect tabs > that worked much better than the paper or foil ones. I have a particular hatred for gummy, sloppy electrical tape. While it might work, I don't want that goop anywhere near my diskettes. Oooh, how about "Slipknot Grey"? ;) For a time, 3M packaged plastic clear red-tinted write-enable tabs with their 8" diskettes. I owned a couple of drives that were blind to its presence--it was very frustrating until it dawned on me that it was the tabs' fault. Cheers, Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Feb 5 17:51:46 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:51:46 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 GUI console, was Re: Foonly In-Reply-To: References: <2f1897842751.45c71da2@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <45C7C312.5020803@shiresoft.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 5, 2007, at 4:07 PM, John A. Dundas III wrote: >> Due to overwhelming demand (OK, two people asked), here are some >> quick screen shots from the program. >> >> Traditional /70: >> >> >> Industrial-11: >> >> >> DataSystem 570: >> >> >> So if you actually have one of the last two, feel free to suggest how >> to improve the displays. BTW, the lamp test switch does work. > My biggest complaint is that on your display for the 570, the unlit lights should *not* have a red tinge to them. They should be "black". The red tinge is only present on the "traditional" red front panels. -- TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 18:03:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:03:22 -0500 Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen In-Reply-To: References: <45C6A430.9803AE01@rain.org> Message-ID: On 2/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I've got a CBM 8032 that powers up "fine", but the screen is filled > > with "!" on every other character position... > > It's been a long time since I've worked on a PET, but some details have > stuck in my mind. > > The first (obvious?) thing is that it appears that the LSB of some > locations in screen memory is stuck in the '1'' state. That would turn a > blnk into a '!' and a 'n' into an 'o' even in PETSCII Yep. > Now, I seem to remember that on 80 column PETs, the 2K video memory is > made up of 4 1K*4 chips and that alternate characters are stored in each > pair of chips (one pair of chips stores all the chracters in odd-numbered > locations on the screen the other pair the characters in even-numbered > locations). That would explain why you have problems with alternate > characters. Hmm... I didn't know about the even-odd interleave, but that'd be easy to check against the schematics. > And you guessed it,. Those RAMs are 2114s, a chip well-known around here > for failing in oadd ways. Exactly. In a PET, it's much more likely that a 2114 has failed than a bus buffer or similar IC. > Without the scheamtics (and I have them _somewhere_, they should be on > the web (does funet.fi still exist?)) I can;t be more specific. But I'd > gerab said schematics, find out which 2114 is at fault and change it. funet.fi doesn't exist as such, but the archives do. They are now on zimmers.net http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/pet/ Enjoy, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 5 18:10:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070205155751.J67689@shell.lmi.net> > > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or > > Model 4? On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes :-). Unfotunately I've only seen said advert on a monochrome TV, so I > can't tell you which it is (the M3 is grey, the M4 is white). The Model 4 has a "control" key that the 1 and three do not. Radio Shack, for a while offered an "upgrade" to convert model 3's into model 4's. It was only slightly more expensive than model 4's. Therefore, there are SOME gray color or grey colour model 4's From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 5 18:12:03 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:12:03 -0800 Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for a friend Message-ID: <45C7C7D3.92AE66B1@rain.org> Take a look on VCM ... there is one on there now. http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/bid.cfm?ad=2707 > a friend would like to buy an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for her husband. She > asked me to help. Apparently he has fond memories of them. > > I've seen these (long ago) and used one once but really have no clue. > Are they obtainable? Anyone have one they want to sell? > > Any pointers or advice appreciated... thanks! > > -brad From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Feb 5 18:19:17 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:19:17 -0800 Subject: Write protect tabs Message-ID: Quoth Chuck: > I just had a thought about another possible alternative for write- > protect tabs. > > How about the foil tape used in the construction trades, such as 3M > 425? I seem to recall that the adhesive on this stuff is pretty > heavy-bodied and should stick well, but be easy to remove. You could also use book tape if it's a mechanical sense system. Very heavy, quite sticky plastic. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 5 18:31:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:31:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070205163104.U67689@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, best for companies to BEHAVE THEMSELVES in the first place, > > but I guess that won't be happening anytime soon, at least not in > > America, Inc. On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Richard wrote: > Nor anywhere else that organizations are run by humans. > The honor system doesn't scale. That's why (unfortunately) we need cops. That's why some big companies have a "Chief Ethics Officer" coordinating their espionage. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 18:36:00 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:36:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C4E4CE.26013.DABB3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <189854.69782.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> > > some pcs didnt have dma. Tandy 1000...IBM > Peanut...Sanyo MBC-5xx too IIRC... > Correct (well, it was option in the Tandy 1000, it > was included on the > RAM expansion board). What was it, the 8237, actually came on the ram board? I probably knew this at one time. I have about three of these things in the shed, I'll need to check them out to see if any has it. > I would also claim the Sanyo MBC-5xx was not a > PC-compatible. Yes it ran > MS-DOS, but it wouldn't boot an IBM PC disk AFAIK. Yes true. Depends on how you want to interpret "IBM compatible". To some, pc and compatible are the same thing. In reality, an Apple II or a Commodore 64 is a pc. So...using the previous definition, a Sanyo MBC-5xx isn't really a "pc", nor a compatible. Not a very good one anyhoo... I used to call things like that semi-compatible, but the term is misleading. Now I just say pseudo- compatible. Some are slightly compatible, and many can use "well behaved" IBM peecee software - only accesses the hardware through DOS or BIOS calls, but to refer to a Tandy 2000 as a semi-compatible is just too darn crazy. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 18:42:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:42:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <929386.83301.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly let me emphasise that my first computer was > a TRS-80 Model 1. And > I thus do have a soft spot for that machine. > Irrational, probably, but > there you are. I've got several TRS-80s now (M1, M3, > M4, CoCo, M100) and > all have proved _very_ reliable. Odd considering > other people's > expieneces, but I must have replaced perhaps a dozen > components _total_ > in all said machines. I guess this could be said about a lot of units, but a coco in particular seems to be a pretty good way of studying computer hardware initially. The 6800 was fairly commonly used in sbc's back in those days, and the 6809 is just a step up from that. I can't say anything particularly bad about it's makeup, and I'd bet it was way more reliable then a Commie 64. I can't speak much of the other TRS-80s (except the model 2000, which few people realize WAS a TRS-80) never played with any of them, and in reality a Z80 based micro is probably an even better platform to learn on. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 5 18:48:16 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:48:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I just had a look and they're not Avery, but Quill--a discount office > supplies place. . . . and Quill v North Dakota (SCOTUS 1991?) is why you're not paying sales tax on interstate purchases! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 18:50:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:50:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <20070203130105.P57657@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <286646.69048.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > The Sony SMC-70 had an obviously "Italian Exotic" > design, if you're into > such. Oi I don't know what you're talking about. Show me other examples of this if you want to persuade me. I have 2 of these, actually an SMC-70 and an SMC-70G (I think that's what it's called). Haven't used either yet. They do power up, or at least they appear to, but on the 70G (I think that's what it's called) it had auto inject floppies (I think so anyway), and they won't auto inject squat (at least I don't think they will). I was perusing a BYTE magazine a while back, before my stash of BYTES got rained on, and I saw a blurb where Sony was allegedly planning on releasing an 8088 (8086?) coprocessor for the things. Can anyone confirm or deny if this ever happened? Oi. I wish there were at least some Japanese collectors on this list. Am I the only one to notice it's a part of the world that we don't hear from on here. And a particularly important part if you ask me. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 5 19:00:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:00:01 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <20070205163104.U67689@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070205163104.U67689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2007, at 7:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Well, best for companies to BEHAVE THEMSELVES in the first place, >>> but I guess that won't be happening anytime soon, at least not in >>> America, Inc. > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Richard wrote: >> Nor anywhere else that organizations are run by humans. >> The honor system doesn't scale. That's why (unfortunately) we >> need cops. > > That's why some big companies have a "Chief Ethics Officer" > coordinating > their espionage. *cackle!* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 5 19:13:03 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:13:03 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? >> > >> > Yes. I regularly ( == when I remember!) backup my email >> > by throwing it all into a zip archive and then that gets >> > written (along with other stuff) to CD, along with an >> > MD5SUM file. >> >> Good for you! > > Yes, but the md5sum will only detect corruption, not correct it. I've always used DLT for backups in recent years; far as I'm aware they have a reasonable level of error detection / correction information built in at the lowest level, I don't see them dying out for a long time, and I prefer the fact that the media's self-contained (unlike CD / DVD which runs the risk of attracting dirt / fingerprints due to handling). I tend to keep two copies of any data on separate tapes (uncompressed tar format) plus a third copy on a hard disk (which only gets plugged into a system for the duration of a backup run). Test restores are always done, using the cksum util on each restored file for comparison [1] against the original data just to verify tape integrity. [1] Yes, tar has some verification options built in, but at least for the GNU version the documentation seems to be a bit lacking; I'd trust cksum's output more for detecting any problem files as it's not entirely clear what exactly tar does for the verify step. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 5 19:48:42 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:48:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <286646.69048.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <286646.69048.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070205174703.A74937@shell.lmi.net> > > The Sony SMC-70 had an obviously "Italian Exotic" > > design, if you're into > > such. On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris M wrote: > Oi I don't know what you're talking about. Show me > other examples of this if you want to persuade me. I talking only about the physical appearance and design of the case; not even considering the engineering aspects. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 5 19:54:20 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:54:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I just had a look and they're not Avery, but Quill--a discount office > > supplies place. > > . . . and Quill v North Dakota (SCOTUS 1991?) is why you're not paying > sales tax on interstate purchases! Do you have an URL on this? There's an awful lot of talk about California among others wanting sales tax paid on interstate purchases. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 5 20:03:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:03:11 -0700 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <286646.69048.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <286646.69048.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C7E1DF.6040809@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > I was perusing a BYTE magazine a while back, before > my stash of BYTES got rained on, and I saw a blurb > where Sony was allegedly planning on releasing an 8088 > (8086?) coprocessor for the things. Can anyone confirm > or deny if this ever happened? Oi. > I wish there were at least some Japanese collectors > on this list. Am I the only one to notice it's a part > of the world that we don't hear from on here. And a > particularly important part if you ask me. > But then we would have to learn Japanese. (=^_^=) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 20:04:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:04:46 -0800 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <45C771BE.3803.AD13B66@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 17:54, David Griffith wrote: > Do you have an URL on this? There's an awful lot of talk about California > among others wanting sales tax paid on interstate purchases. One need but google: http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0194.ZO.html Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 20:15:30 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:15:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for an AT&T 3B1 (7300) for a friend In-Reply-To: <1C284E07-7EFF-4759-9425-0AE34DE84736@neurotica.com> References: <200702051941.l15JfS7J018440@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1C284E07-7EFF-4759-9425-0AE34DE84736@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45C7E4C2.1050503@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Are they obtainable? Anyone have one they want to sell? >> >> Any pointers or advice appreciated... thanks! > > They are around. I have one here but I'll hang onto it, as I regret > having gotten rid of my original one years ago, and someone here was > generous enough to give me one. They can be had with a little hunting. Indeed, I thought Dave's was pretty neat, so I went looking for one. Only took me a couple of months to find one in perfect condition. Peace... Sridhar From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Feb 5 20:18:05 2007 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:18:05 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: I sent a longer email to Al off-list, but I wanted to let the rest of you know about something the company I work for (Kristine Fallon Associates) is doing. We did a study for the Art Institute of Chicago about how their Department of Architecture and Design could collect and preserve the "digital design data" (CAD files, images, Poiwerpoints, etc.) that architects are using more and more. Our report is online at http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/dept_architecture/ddd.html. We are now just about finished creating a working prototype archival system. I'm programming a Web client for entering the metadata and a programmer for the AIC is doing the back end. We are using the DSpace archive software (developed by MIT and HP) as the storage mechanism. Our approach is certainly not directly applicable to preserving software -- we suggest using PDF's as wrappers for a lot of data -- but I think the report addresses a number of important, and common, issues. Bob +++++++++++++++++ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:54:47 -0500 From: "William Donzelli" Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >One of the things I've been disturbed to discover is CHM appears to be one >of the few institutions who are attempting to archive software. CHM is a fairly unique institution, that is why. There are only a handful of computer museums that are run like museums. Many "computer museums" are just glorified users groups, informal circles of friends, or just guys that like hoarding machines and docs. -- Will _________________________________________________________________ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ? buy and sell with people you know http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06 From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:23:04 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:23:04 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C74997.3886.A3461C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> <45C74997.3886.A3461C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C7E688.1080507@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For archiving our stuff and our customers' data, we use Mitsui/MAM-A > "gold on gold" CD-R media. Mitsui claims that the storage life of > the dyes used is in excess of 300 years. I can but surmise that it's > our best bet. While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the > same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading > movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just > "pushing" the technology a bit. You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:25:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:25:08 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <003801c74972$0fb5f1b0$4f04010a@uatempname> References: <003801c74972$0fb5f1b0$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45C7E704.6010404@oldskool.org> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > As I said, most of the CDs and DVDs that have failed have been > entirely unreadable (except usually for the TOC). That have failed *you*. Mine have been gradual. How are you storing yours? Mine go into black folders that are closed completely (ie. no light gets in) and stored in a cool dry place. The first CD I ever burnt was in 1996 and it still reads... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:28:09 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:28:09 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > I've always used DLT for backups in recent years; far as I'm aware they > have a reasonable level of error detection / correction information > built in at the lowest level, I don't see them dying out for a long > time, and I prefer the fact that the media's self-contained (unlike CD / > DVD which runs the risk of attracting dirt / fingerprints due to handling). It is rare that they fail completely (they usually slowly develop errors over time in heavy use until you have to replace them). But let me tell you, if you get the one rare one that does fail, it fails SPECTACULARLY. As in, it takes the drive with it! > [1] Yes, tar has some verification options built in, but at least for Its verification is practically a non-feature. Always generate parity or make redundant copies. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:30:31 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:30:31 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C7E847.4010907@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> some pcs didnt have dma. Tandy 1000...IBM >> Peanut...Sanyo MBC-5xx too IIRC... > > Correct (well, it was option in the Tandy 1000, it was included on the > RAM expansion board). Um, sure you're not thinking of the PCjr? I've put a Sound Blaster into my Tandy 1000 and it works fine (requires DMA). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:34:48 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:34:48 -0600 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C7E948.4050109@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Cool, can you tell me what the Avery "number" is for them? (should be >> on the box) 33 to a sheet is not #5197 (which are quite exorbitantly >> priced for some crazy reason) but if you've used something that works >> for you, I'd like to know the number so I can duplicate. > > I just had a look and they're not Avery, but Quill--a discount office > supplies place. What we've been using have been Quill 901-7-20401, > but that's a lot of labels. Basically, any "copier label" seems to > do well. Probably any big-box office supplies store will have their > own brand. But that's exactly what has failed me: generic-brand copier labels. So, if you swear by "Quill 901-7-20401", then that's what I'll get. >> On a related note, how about write-protect tabs? > > Eh, now there you've got me for a good solution. There are foil > labels (such as return address labels) that should work, but they're > not all that removable. I'll take 'em -- the whole point of the tab is to protect the data. Any particular brands you've used? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:36:38 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:36:38 -0600 Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45C7E9B6.50705@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I just had a thought about another possible alternative for write- >> protect tabs. >> How about the foil tape used in the construction trades, such as 3M >> 425? I seem to recall that the adhesive on this stuff is pretty >> heavy-bodied and should stick well, but be easy to remove. > > howzbout regular electrical tape? Tried that; slides around and falls off. It seems the material and adhesive were made for each other (ie. meant to stick to itself, not other things). It *looks* the best, but is not practical long-term (and I've sworn like a sailor when a disk comes out of the drive without the tape!) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 20:43:46 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:43:46 -0600 Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <200702051835.31466.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <45C7326C.27570.9D9E372@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205145337.L66175@shell.lmi.net> <200702051835.31466.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45C7EB62.1030308@oldskool.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Indeed, I was just going to suggest a roll of black vinyl electrical > tape. It's best to use a good 3M roll, rather than the cheap > $0.50/roll junk you can buy, also. There's a noticeable difference > between the cheap stuff and the "expensive" stuff, and the more > expensive stuff really is worth the price difference, in adhesion, > flexibility, durability, and thickness. Hm... that may explain my previous post. So what would you recommend, something like 3M? Tartan? 1710 Vinyl Insulating Tape? Or just any 3M brand at my local hardware store, as long as it says "3m" and "vinyl"? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 20:43:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:43:53 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7E688.1080507@oldskool.org> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org>, <45C74997.3886.A3461C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C7E688.1080507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C77AE9.15548.AF507C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:23, Jim Leonard wrote: > You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the > Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD. I don't see the correlation. What good is better error correction if it's built on a less reliable technology? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 5 20:46:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:46:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070205182818.B77315@shell.lmi.net> > > . . . and Quill v North Dakota (SCOTUS 1991?) is why you're not paying > > sales tax on interstate purchases! > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, David Griffith wrote: > Do you have an URL on this? There's an awful lot of talk about California > among others wanting sales tax paid on interstate purchases. No URL handy, but Google should work. In 1953?, The Baldwin case (SCOTUS) decided that sales tax should not be imposed on interstate commerce. Sales tax could be imposed iff the seller had a "nexus" (presence) in the destination state. Over time, some states got "creative", declaring that "well, things are DIFFERENT now", and defining presence in terms of any storage, advertising within the state, etc. The customer service rep of North Dakota was very helpful but honest. He told me, "we define it somewhat aggressively. We feel that there is a presence if there are at least three phone calls made into the state. Oh, and by the way, this counts as the first one." Quill (mail-order office supplies) didn't agree. It went to the Supreme Court (SCOTUS). SCOTUS sided with Quill, that a "nexus" had to be a physical presence. Quill deserves our support! Periodically, the "oh, well, things are DIFFERENT now" states will resume their contempt of SCOTUS. and, of course the fact that it is called "Sales and USE tax" gives the states the opprotunity to say that anything that you buy is subject to USE tax, regardless of where you got it. California once tried to apply that to a database of customs declarations! When sales tax IS applicable, it is theoretically at the rate of the destination location. But, the Bd'o= doesn't care if businesses charge the rate of the source location, since it is more often higher. Thereby eliminationg the market for the XenoSoft Sales tax Genie. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 20:53:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:53:11 -0800 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C7E948.4050109@oldskool.org> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C7E948.4050109@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C77D17.18705.AFD8D35@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:34, Jim Leonard wrote: > But that's exactly what has failed me: generic-brand copier labels. > So, if you swear by "Quill 901-7-20401", then that's what I'll get. That's what we've been using for years. I'm not swearing by anything though--for these white-box deals, suppliers and materials can change overnight. > I'll take 'em -- the whole point of the tab is to protect the data. Any > particular brands you've used? I picked some up at the local stationers; don't recall the brand offhand--probably Avery again. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Feb 5 21:13:34 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:13:34 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <45C7E847.4010907@oldskool.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070205220849.05281e88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Tony Duell wrote: >>>some pcs didnt have dma. Tandy 1000...IBM >>>Peanut...Sanyo MBC-5xx too IIRC... >>Correct (well, it was option in the Tandy 1000, it was included on the >>RAM expansion board). > >Um, sure you're not thinking of the PCjr? I've put a Sound Blaster into >my Tandy 1000 and it works fine (requires DMA). Dunno... there were *lots* of Tandy 1000's... ;-) From memory, TX, SX, TL, SL, TL/2, SL/2, (maybe a) TL/3, RL, RLX, HX, EX... I'm sure I'm missing a few, as well... The last two - the HX & EX, were all-in-one units with the keyboard built-into the system unit, one floppy, minimal and specialized expansion - maybe those didn't have DMA??? There's a picture of one about 1/2 way down, at the IckiPedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_1000 ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 5 21:32:34 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:32:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <20070205182818.B77315@shell.lmi.net> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net> <20070205182818.B77315@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > Periodically, the "oh, well, things are DIFFERENT now" states will resume > their contempt of SCOTUS. > > and, of course the fact that it is called "Sales and USE tax" gives the > states the opprotunity to say that anything that you buy is subject to USE > tax, regardless of where you got it. California once tried to apply that > to a database of customs declarations! One would think this would be a no-brainer given that these "oh well" states clearly appear to be in violation of Article I Section 10 of the US Constitution. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 5 21:37:38 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: Write protect tabls; was: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: <45C7EB62.1030308@oldskool.org> References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <200702051835.31466.pat@computer-refuge.org> <45C7EB62.1030308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200702052237.38171.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 February 2007 21:43, Jim Leonard wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Indeed, I was just going to suggest a roll of black vinyl electrical > > tape. It's best to use a good 3M roll, rather than the cheap > > $0.50/roll junk you can buy, also. There's a noticeable difference > > between the cheap stuff and the "expensive" stuff, and the more > > expensive stuff really is worth the price difference, in adhesion, > > flexibility, durability, and thickness. > > Hm... that may explain my previous post. So what would you recommend, > something like 3M? Tartan? 1710 Vinyl Insulating Tape? Or just any 3M > brand at my local hardware store, as long as it says "3m" and "vinyl"? I usually use 3M Super 33+ Vinyl Electrial Tape. I haven't tried using it for write-protect tabs on a disk, though. The "good" 3M stuff does have a lot better stick than the el-cheap-o tape does, though, so it's worth a shot. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 21:59:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:59:38 -0500 Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <45C7E1DF.6040809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <286646.69048.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <45C7E1DF.6040809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2/5/07, woodelf wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > I wish there were at least some Japanese collectors > > on this list. Am I the only one to notice it's a part > > of the world that we don't hear from on here. And a > > particularly important part if you ask me. I have purchased every Japanese machine I've spotted for sale in the wild - so far, that's one Sharp word processor for which I can't buy thermal ribbons for in the U.S. :-/ > But then we would have to learn Japanese. (=^_^=) ???????? -ethan From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 5 22:17:34 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:17:34 -0800 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive Message-ID: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> I have a Mac 128 and I want to duplicate the system disk. Probably a stupid question, but how do you make a copy of a disk on that computer (single internal disk drive.) Needless to say, I am not a Mac person. Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 5 22:24:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:24:44 -0800 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org>, <20070205182818.B77315@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <45C7928C.24370.B515E09@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2007 at 19:32, David Griffith wrote: > One would think this would be a no-brainer given that these "oh well" > states clearly appear to be in violation of Article I Section 10 of the > US Constitution. Abuse goes much further than that. Prior to 1991, we used to regularly argue with California that there was no way we could collect sales tax, as Oregon has no sales tax, and therefore no mechanism for collecting it. (BTW, in California, unless things have changed, the agency responsible for riding herd on sales tax is called the "Board of Equalization". Always smacked of "Handicapper General"). I also explained that Oregon would most likely not honor a warrant from California that dealt with sales tax issues. It made little difference to the small minds in the Golden State--and some refused to believe that Oregon has no sales tax. After that, it became a requirement that any entity from any state doing business with a California government entity had to go through a bunch of "drug free workplace" forms, including one that stated that we gave annual drug screenings to all of our employees. We managed to duck that one, but just barely. I remember when California increased the sales tax from a 1% tax to fund education to 6% as a "temporary" measure. There were some who warned that there's no such thing as a temporary tax--and they were right. Heck, we're all still paying for the Spanish-American War via the 3% Federal Excise tax on our phone bills. Aw, there I go again... Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 22:41:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:41:05 -0500 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> Message-ID: On 2/5/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I have a Mac 128 and I want to duplicate the system disk. Probably a stupid > question, but how do you make a copy of a disk on that computer (single internal > disk drive.) Needless to say, I am not a Mac person. Thanks! Hmm... if you have a 128K Mac, I'm guessing you are using an older version of the Finder (1.1g, perhaps?) I don't recall off the top of my head what the newest version of the OS fits into 128K, but I'm guessing it's 3.5 or older. I mention this because I think there were some changes made later, once single-drive systems were somewhat rare. If I am remembering correctly, older systems can't format during a copy, but later ones can. What I seem to think was the single-disk copying procedure is to eject the System disk (Flower-E or Flower-1?), then insert a previously formatted target floppy, eject _that_ one, which should leave its icon on the desktop, but grayed out, then drag the System disk icon over the target disk icon. The machine should slurp up 20%-25% of the System disk, spit it out, prompt you to swap, write out what's cached, spit the target floppy out, ad nausem, until all 400K passes through memory to your destination disk. While doing this, you will be subjected to your internal drive playing a little tune as the drive changes speeds through at least 4 zones. After a while, you might learn to listen to how far the copy has progressed, but hopefully you won't be doing this often enough to have it drilled into your head. It's all quite tedious, but possible. If there's anyway you can borrow a second 400K floppy, you will find this somewhat trivial. You can also copy 400K disks in more modern Macs, so don't think you are limited to using a 128K Mac to copy single-sided MFS disks. I can't say for certain how new the gear can be, but at the very least, I'd be surprised if a Mac SE or SE/30 running System 6 couldn't still do it. Of course, you might only have that 128K handy with no way to find/borrow an external drive, but unless this is the case, or unless you are attempting a masochistic experiment to drive a Mac like it was still 1984, you may find this activity much easier on friendlier hardware, even an unexpanded 512K Mac. -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 22:44:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:44:39 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C77AE9.15548.AF507C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org>, <45C74997.3886.A3461C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C7E688.1080507@oldskool.org> <45C77AE9.15548.AF507C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C807B7.4030308@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:23, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the >> Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD. > > I don't see the correlation. What good is better error correction if > it's built on a less reliable technology? My point is that the basic substrate technology is the same, but just to be sure, they added 33% more error correction. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 22:47:36 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:47:36 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070205220849.05281e88@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070205220849.05281e88@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <45C80868.7060503@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > The last two - the HX & EX, were all-in-one units with the keyboard > built-into the system unit, one floppy, minimal and specialized > expansion - maybe those didn't have DMA??? Internally they had DMA as well (there were hard drive expansions for them at some point). I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the PCjr, which has the distinction of being the only IBM PC compatible that is *slower* than the original machine due to slow RAM (first 128K) and lack of DMA. Later upgrades added faster RAM and DMA, but on stock delivery, it was slower. But we love our bastard children :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 22:49:55 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:49:55 -0600 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> Message-ID: <45C808F3.60909@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I have a Mac 128 and I want to duplicate the system disk. Probably a stupid > question, but how do you make a copy of a disk on that computer (single internal > disk drive.) Needless to say, I am not a Mac person. Thanks! Just copy it as you normally would: Format a 2nd disk, then copy one disk onto the other (if memory serves, it's been a long long time). The one thing I do know for sure is that you will swap disks no less than 20 times making the copy. After Finder is loaded, there's about 40K free on a 128K system. That's 10 operations of "read chunk"->"write chunk" right there. So be patient; the machine is not intentionally torturing you. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 22:57:45 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:57:45 -0600 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> Message-ID: <45C80AC9.5030601@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > unless > you are attempting a masochistic experiment to drive a Mac like it was > still 1984 Hey now... I do that intentionally from time to time. It's not masochistic, it's nostalgic :-) I tried to explain to a younger person why I still have an Apple when every disk under the sun has been dumped to image files, and Apple II emulators are 99.99999% perfect. I told him it's because there is a certain flavor of experience that can't be emulated when using the real thing. The noise of the disk drive (*), the long wait times, etc. contribute to the experience. An Apple II emulator which silently loads programs in one second isn't right. (And arcade emulators that don't even make an attempt at reproducing scanlines also irk me.) (*) How many of you did this internally when you read that: "Brrrrrrrrrrrr-RATDATDATDATDATDATDATDATDAT!" :-) (Or, for anyone who has booted an Electronic Arts game on a PC more than ten times: "chunk. chunk. chunk. chunk. chunk-chink-chink-chink-chunk!" -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 5 22:57:32 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:57:32 -0500 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> Message-ID: <200702052357.32299.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 February 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If I am remembering correctly, older systems can't format during a > copy, but later ones can. What I seem to think was the single-disk > copying procedure is to eject the System disk (Flower-E or Flower-1?), >From memory of my junior and high-school days :), Shift-Apple-1 will eject the disk without removing the icon from the finder. "Eject" or dragging it to the trashcan ejects the disk and removes its icon. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 22:58:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:58:14 -0600 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <45C808F3.60909@oldskool.org> References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> <45C808F3.60909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C80AE6.8060606@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Just copy it as you normally would: Format a 2nd disk, then copy one > disk onto the other (if memory serves, it's been a long long time). Sorry, that should have read "drag one disk onto the other" -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 5 23:10:40 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:10:40 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model I References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070205220849.05281e88@mail.30below.com> <45C80868.7060503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <018801c749ad$254b9a30$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model I > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > The last two - the HX & EX, were all-in-one units with the keyboard > > built-into the system unit, one floppy, minimal and specialized > > expansion - maybe those didn't have DMA??? > > Internally they had DMA as well (there were hard drive expansions for > them at some point). > > I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the PCjr, which has the distinction > of being the only IBM PC compatible that is *slower* than the original > machine due to slow RAM (first 128K) and lack of DMA. Later upgrades > added faster RAM and DMA, but on stock delivery, it was slower. > > But we love our bastard children :-) > -- > The Tandy 1000 HX and EX had DMA if you had the memory upgrade card installed (also needed if you wanted to add any plus cards), but not stock. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 23:12:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:12:46 -0500 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <45C808F3.60909@oldskool.org> References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> <45C808F3.60909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 2/5/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I have a Mac 128 and I want to duplicate the system disk. Probably a stupid > > question, but how do you make a copy of a disk on that computer (single internal > > disk drive.) Needless to say, I am not a Mac person. Thanks! > > Just copy it as you normally would: Format a 2nd disk, then copy one > disk onto the other (if memory serves, it's been a long long time). As I just wrote, that's my (faded) memory, too. > The one thing I do know for sure is that you will swap disks no less > than 20 times making the copy. After Finder is loaded, there's about > 40K free on a 128K system. That's 10 operations of "read chunk"->"write > chunk" right there. So be patient; the machine is not intentionally > torturing you. Ah... you are probably correct about 10 swaps - I was thinking there was between 64K and 96K free, but that's probably way too optimistic. Perhaps it's 3-4 swaps on a 512K? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 23:16:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:16:13 -0500 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <200702052357.32299.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> <200702052357.32299.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 2/5/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 05 February 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If I am remembering correctly, older systems can't format during a > > copy, but later ones can. What I seem to think was the single-disk > > copying procedure is to eject the System disk (Flower-E or Flower-1?), > > >From memory of my junior and high-school days :), Shift-Apple-1 will > eject the disk without removing the icon from the finder. "Eject" or > dragging it to the trashcan ejects the disk and removes its icon. Right... that's what I was attempting to convey - that you *don't* drag the disk to the trash can as that will eject the disk _and_ remove the icon from the desktop. You need to have both icons handy so you can drag one onto the other. I'm also reasonably certain that as such, you must copy onto a previously formatted floppy - the copy with the old finder can't format on the fly, neither will you have an icon to drag onto. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 5 23:34:00 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:34:00 -0500 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> <200702052357.32299.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200702060034.00098.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 06 February 2007 00:16, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right... that's what I was attempting to convey - that you *don't* > drag the disk to the trash can as that will eject the disk _and_ > remove the icon from the desktop. Yeah, I know. I was just pointing out what the keystroke should be. :) > You need to have both icons handy so you can drag one onto the other. > I'm also reasonably certain that as such, you must copy onto a > previously formatted floppy - the copy with the old finder can't > format on the fly, neither will you have an icon to drag onto. Yes, but if you shove an unformatted disk in, it should prompt you to format it, before it does anything else. (At least, that was the case with every version of MacOS that I used.) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 5 23:58:02 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:58:02 -0600 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> <45C808F3.60909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C818EA.5040009@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Perhaps it's 3-4 swaps on a 512K? 2 swaps (400K disk fits entirely into memory). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Feb 6 00:15:54 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:15:54 -0800 Subject: Thanks! Message-ID: <45C81D1A.2261332A@rain.org> On the CBM 8032, I downloaded the schematics from http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/pet/, and that helped a lot. Tony's comment about odd and even made things start to make sense. My only question there was did the count start at zero or one :). It appears that the count does start at zero (even). I have some doubts about the schematics since D3 is the one line (on a clear screen) that seems to be always high, and that doesn't correspond to bit 0 always on. BUT it appears that the 4114 at C4 is bad, and I'll scope it out before removing it and putting in a socket. BTW, what is the difference (if any) between the 8032 with the wide plastic label, and the 8032 with the two plastic logos? The one on the right says "CMB Model 8032" and the one of the left says "Commodore". I have both models, but this one is the one with the two plastic logos. And many thanks for the help on copying a floppy on the Mac 128. That worked like a champ. I did find that putting an icon into the trash didn't eject the disk for some reason. However the flower E worked great. Thanks! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 6 00:17:03 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:17:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <45C80AC9.5030601@oldskool.org> References: <45C8015E.805D1C5F@rain.org> <45C80AC9.5030601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > I tried to explain to a younger person why I still have an Apple when > every disk under the sun has been dumped to image files, and Apple II > emulators are 99.99999% perfect. I told him it's because there is a > certain flavor of experience that can't be emulated when using the real > thing. The noise of the disk drive (*), the long wait times, etc. > contribute to the experience. An Apple II emulator which silently loads > programs in one second isn't right. (And arcade emulators that don't > even make an attempt at reproducing scanlines also irk me.) > > (*) How many of you did this internally when you read that: > "Brrrrrrrrrrrr-RATDATDATDATDATDATDATDATDAT!" :-) It's not the same unless the table shakes while the drive does its thing. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 00:26:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 01:26:53 -0500 Subject: Thanks! In-Reply-To: <45C81D1A.2261332A@rain.org> References: <45C81D1A.2261332A@rain.org> Message-ID: On 2/6/07, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > On the CBM 8032, I downloaded the schematics from > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/pet/, and that helped a lot. You're welcome. > And many thanks for the help on copying a floppy on the Mac 128. That worked > like a champ. I did find that putting an icon into the trash didn't eject the > disk for some reason. However the flower E worked great. I _think_ you can't eject the System disk by dropping it in the trash because that would imply you were done with it, and since it's the boot volume, Finder won't let you be "finished" with it. -ethan From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Feb 6 05:09:20 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:09:20 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C707EC.13380.933E0C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070205104638.GA27802@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <45C707EC.13380.933E0C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070206110917.GA7736@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:33:16AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Feb 2007 at 10:46, David Cantrell wrote: > > Surely the big "problem" is that people don't think keeping copies of > > all the letters they write to their mum is worth bothering with. And > > they are entirely correct. > Perhaps, but you're also assuming that one's judgement of things > important is exactly correct. It's my data, so of course my judgment is correct :-) > When one migrates hard disk data, the tendency that I've witnessed is > for users to make decisions about what to transfer. Sure. But even so, keeping all your electronic data is a darned sight easier than keeping a musty pile of paper. Just this last weekend I went through a large pile of paper deciding what to keep and what to shred. If that data had been on disk I'd just have dumped it into folders named YYYYMM and forgotten about it. > For some reason, the current > trend is to wipe or destroy hard disks rather than to remove them > from equipment and encourage the owner to put them in a safe place. I realise that we are a special case on this 'ere mailing list, but even I have disks that I can no longer read, partly because the last drive I had for them is now buggered, partly because the disks themselves are failing, partly because I've got nothing with which to decode the filesystems. Frankly, from a data retention point of view, keeping the old disks is the worst thing you can do. MUCH better to transfer the data to a disk that works reliably, that will be regularly backed up, and so on. But even then, my letters to my mother are not important enough to spend the slightest amount of energy on keeping. If I do keep them, it's only because finding and deleting them in the 'stuff-from-old-PC' directory is too much like hard work. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire While researching this email, I was forced to carry out some investigative work which unfortunately involved a bucket of puppies and a belt sander -- after JoeB, in the Monastery From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Feb 6 05:22:28 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:22:28 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> References: <45C75791.8030802@bitsavers.org> <45C75F6D.2080605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20070206112226.GB7736@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 11:46:37AM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > >Is everything you're 'backing up' checksummed? How do you KNOW > >it hasn't already been corrupted? If you can't rely on their integrity then they're not backups, they're hopes. I am supremely confident in my backups' integrity, and I test them regularly to make sure of it. > Add to the fact that paper seems to be far more resilient then say CD > backups (which I've seen several CD's that I created around 97-98 which > are now having problems reading certain sections) That's why I keep all my data on hard disk where practical - even the CDs and DVDs I buy get transferred to hard disk - so that they'll get transferred to some brand new shiny medium every few years. This also means that the data are protected against the medium being scratched and against my computer twenty years in the future not having a CDROM drive. > While bulky - I have been printing out nearly 9 years worth of email > correspondence relating to all of the Atari historical research I've > been doing and sorting it out to keep on record So it'll all go *poof* in a fire. > I don't trust digital based storage for archival purposes. Merely sticking your data onto a spinning magnetic disk obviously ain't good enough. However, that plus rigourously sticking to good procedures *is* good enough. A much worse problem for archivists is that so much data is protected by passwords and encryption. No-one apart from me knows the password to decrypt my offsite backups, and I've not written it down anywhere. So if I die in a house fire, that data is GONE. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Wow, my first sigquoting! I feel so special now! -- Dan Sugalski From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 10:32:46 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:32:46 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C77AE9.15548.AF507C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org>, <45C74997.3886.A3461C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C7E688.1080507@oldskool.org> <45C77AE9.15548.AF507C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C8ADAE.5000206@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:23, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the >> Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD. > > I don't see the correlation. What good is better error correction if > it's built on a less reliable technology? Well said :) If the optical media were enclosed in a case (CD caddies, anyone?) then at least it would go some way toward preventing damage from scratches, fingerprints etc. I've seen CD media that's only four years old, has been dry-stored in original cases and away from light which has huge rot spots all over the discs - so it seems that deterioration can easily happen naturally even in good conditions with certain discs. Then of course there are huge potential incompatibility issues between the media, the drives, and the authoring process. It seems there's no way of knowing that a disc written in one drive will be at all readable in a different drive - not something you want for backups! All of which raises interesting questions for preservation; we know that the average person makes no backups - but even if they do, they're likely to be on CD these days, which raises interesting questions as to how much will have survived 20 years down the line. I don't believe that the level of recoverable data will be as high in 20 years as it is now for 20 year old floppies... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 10:38:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:38:27 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've always used DLT for backups in recent years; far as I'm aware >> they have a reasonable level of error detection / correction >> information built in at the lowest level, I don't see them dying out >> for a long time, and I prefer the fact that the media's self-contained >> (unlike CD / DVD which runs the risk of attracting dirt / fingerprints >> due to handling). > > It is rare that they fail completely (they usually slowly develop errors > over time in heavy use until you have to replace them). But let me tell > you, if you get the one rare one that does fail, it fails SPECTACULARLY. > As in, it takes the drive with it! :-) I've never had one fail on me, but thankfully it'll always be easy to pick up either an identical one or one that's compatible with the media used. >> [1] Yes, tar has some verification options built in, but at least for > > Its verification is practically a non-feature. Always generate parity > or make redundant copies. Yep, that was my thinking too. I really need to find the time to write a Linux util to suck tar data off DLT and checksum file-by-file to test backups; currently I restore the whole archive and then use find/cksum/diff to check against source data, but it's annoying needing that extra disk capacity just for the sake of backup testing. cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 10:51:24 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:51:24 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C8ADAE.5000206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <002601c74a0f$0de49ec0$4f04010a@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: > All of which raises interesting questions for preservation; we know > that the average person makes no backups - but even if they do, > they're likely to be on CD these days, which raises interesting > questions as to how much will have survived 20 years down the line. I > don't believe that the level of recoverable data will be as high in > 20 years as it is now for 20 year old floppies... That depends on how you measure it. If you measure that the percentage of all data created that survives to the 20-year mark, you may be right. If you mean the absolute amount of data that survives to the 20-year mark then you are wrong - I'm sure at least _one_ of my DVDs will make it that far, so that beats all floppy data in existence into a cocked hat! Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 10:56:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:56:56 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:32:46 -0600. <45C8ADAE.5000206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <45C8ADAE.5000206 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Then of course there are huge potential incompatibility issues between the > media, the drives, and the authoring process. It seems there's no way of > knowing that a disc written in one drive will be at all readable in a > different drive - not something you want for backups! I don't know that I'd characterize it as a "huge potential" since I've never heard of anyone having this problem except for some people on this list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Feb 6 11:14:26 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:14:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I really need to find the time to write a Linux util to suck tar data > off DLT and checksum file-by-file to test backups; currently I > restore the whole archive and then use find/cksum/diff to check > against source data, but it's annoying needing that extra disk > capacity just for the sake of backup testing. I wrote my own version of tar, which among other things has a mode in which it reads a tape as if to restore, but, instead of restoring, it compares what it finds on the tape with what it finds in the filesystem. It may well turn out to be not what you want, but it might be worth at least a look-in. If it seems close but not quite there, I'll be happy to correspond about it (though in your case it might be a bit, um, interesting, since it appears you use both Yahoo for your email and are in the UK). ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/tar.c for them as wants. There's also tar.man alongside it, though that may be a bit outdated. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 11:42:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:42:33 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org>, <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org>, <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45C84D89.32606.E2BC70A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 10:38, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Its verification is practically a non-feature. Always generate parity > > or make redundant copies. > > Yep, that was my thinking too. I really need to find the time to write a Linux > util to suck tar data off DLT and checksum file-by-file to test backups; > currently I restore the whole archive and then use find/cksum/diff to check > against source data, but it's annoying needing that extra disk capacity just > for the sake of backup testing. Back when we were in the data forensics racket, the business of "Does a separate verify pass do any good with DLT/DAT/8mm media, considering that the recording process is read-write-verify-erase-if- error-and-retry (this is what you pay the bucks for on these drives)"? We rewound and checked the VTOC at the beginning of the tape because doing so would often turn up SCSI data transfer problems, but found it unnecessary to provide an automatic separate verify pass. We did provide a manual verification option, however. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 12:04:53 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:04:53 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7E688.1080507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> For archiving our stuff and our customers' data, we use Mitsui/MAM-A >> "gold on gold" CD-R media. Mitsui claims that the storage life of >> the dyes used is in excess of 300 years. I can but surmise that it's >> our best bet. While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the >> same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading >> movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just >> "pushing" the technology a bit. > > You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the > Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD. I'd like to read up on DVD technology too but I've not been able to locate much (I'd like to read the various standards that detail the physical layer and so on, not some non-technical overview - I can find plenty of those.) Pointers would be appreciated (paying ECMA or whoever would not :-)) I did come across an article which was _slightly_ more technical than the others I've seen. It boiled down to "DVD+R is better because the way it tracks the data stream and the error correction were both improved" (or something like that). Naturally I now canot find any trace of it. (Not that it went into sufficient depth, it just scratched the surface a little deeper than the other articles I've seen). Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 12:40:21 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:40:21 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7E704.6010404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002f01c74a1e$43851d20$4f04010a@uatempname> Jim Leonard wrote: > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> As I said, most of the CDs and DVDs that have failed have been >> entirely unreadable (except usually for the TOC). > > That have failed *you*. Yes. In my Universe, those are the ones that matter :-) > Mine have been gradual. I _think_ many of mine (not yet into double digits) were badly written rather than victims of decay. I only know for certain of one CD and one DVD that tested OK at write-time and failed at some later stage. Both of those were total failures. The very first failure I noticed (the one that taught me that a checksum of some sort was useful!) was a partial failure - only a few files were unrecoverable and those were available elsewhere anyway. I've had many more failed-verification-during-write cases, and when I play around with those I usually find that only a few blocks of data are dead. > > How are you storing yours? Mine go into black folders that are closed > completely (ie. no light gets in) and stored in a cool dry place. The > first CD I ever burnt was in 1996 and it still reads... Apart from the non-archival, daily-use ones, mine end up in either black folders or DJ-style cases. CDs and mushrooms both do much better in the dark! Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 12:42:21 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:42:21 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <003001c74a1e$8a8d5160$4f04010a@uatempname> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've always used DLT for backups in recent years; far as I'm aware >> they have a reasonable level of error detection / correction >> information >> built in at the lowest level, I don't see them dying out for a long >> time, and I prefer the fact that the media's self-contained (unlike >> CD / DVD which runs the risk of attracting dirt / fingerprints due >> to handling). > > It is rare that they fail completely (they usually slowly develop > errors over time in heavy use until you have to replace them). But > let me tell you, if you get the one rare one that does fail, it fails > SPECTACULARLY. As in, it takes the drive with it! I've had one CD-R shatter and the drive was indeed unusable after that. I tried to repair it, but after an hour of clearing bits out and putting the thing back together, testing, dismantling, rinse, lather, repeat I decided it wasn't worth the hassle. I still have it in case I magically run out of CD drives in some far distant future ... Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 6 14:30:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:30:22 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <002f01c74a1e$43851d20$4f04010a@uatempname> References: <002f01c74a1e$43851d20$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45C8E55E.8070309@jetnet.ab.ca> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> Mine have been gradual. > > > I _think_ many of mine (not yet into double digits) were badly written > rather than victims of decay. I only know for certain of one CD and one > DVD that tested OK at write-time and failed at some later stage. Both > of those were total failures. The very first failure I noticed (the one > that taught me that a checksum of some sort was useful!) was a partial > failure - only a few files were unrecoverable and those were available > elsewhere anyway. I've had many more failed-verification-during-write > cases, and when I play around with those I usually find that only a > few blocks of data are dead. > At what speed do you write them? I think 1x speed would work the best, but that about a hour for your data. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 15:18:48 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:18:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <200702062118.l16LIlE9086588@keith.ezwind.net> --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: **>> snip <<** > > I'd like to read up on DVD technology too but I've > not been able > to locate much (I'd like to read the various > standards that > detail the physical layer and so on, not some > non-technical > overview - I can find plenty of those.) **>> snip <<** > > Antonio > Yeah, me three. I'd like to know what the difference is between a writable (write/rewrite) CD/DVD and ordinary ones. How do you "write-protect" a CD/DVD?? This would be useful knowledge, especially when I get a DVD-recorder (sometime this year). Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 15:33:49 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:33:49 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C8E55E.8070309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003701c74a36$7fce1490$4f04010a@uatempname> woodelf wrote: > At what speed do you write them? I think 1x speed would work the > best, but that about a hour for your data. I tend to write DVD-R at 4x, although the batch I have at the moment will go down to 2x (but not 1x ... I think that the acceptable speeds are encoded onto the media). I think that the CD-Rs I have will go down to x or 8x but I tend to write them at 24x or so. In fact the CD-Rs are rated at 52x writing (or something equally ridiculous) but the DVD rewriter drive won't do them at more than 36x or so. I don't know whether write speed makes much of a difference. I just think that if it can just about cope with 52x then giving it a little longer (by writing at say 24x) should mean it doesn't have to turn the laser up so high to heat up the medium (or maybe it can just write the medium a little more thoroughly). But I have no idea whether either of those might be true and I certainly do not have the equipment to examine the disks physically and check. Of course, writing at a lower speed should mean I'm less likely to hit a buffer underrun - although drives mask such problems these days it does eat away at the available space a little. Antonio From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Feb 6 15:53:48 2007 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:53:48 -0500 Subject: Where to obtain diskette labels? In-Reply-To: References: <45C78035.4080001@oldskool.org> <45C7149A.10542.9656801@cclist.sydex.com> <45C79287.9020800@oldskool.org> <45C72ACE.20059.9BC2374@cclist.sydex.com> <20070205164627.N71599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1170798828.7186.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 17:54 -0800, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I just had a look and they're not Avery, but Quill--a discount office > > > supplies place. > > > > . . . and Quill v North Dakota (SCOTUS 1991?) is why you're not paying > > sales tax on interstate purchases! > > Do you have an URL on this? There's an awful lot of talk about California > among others wanting sales tax paid on interstate purchases. > Ohio has a "USE tax" (IIRC) your supposed to declare anything bought over "teh Intarweb" and pay sales tax on it at tax time. I suspect not many folks acutally do. David From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 15:53:11 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:53:11 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702062118.l16LIlE9086588@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <003901c74a39$33acc360$4f04010a@uatempname> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Yeah, me three. > > I'd like to know what the difference is between > a writable (write/rewrite) CD/DVD and > ordinary ones. > How do you "write-protect" a CD/DVD?? The "ordinary" ones are pressed at a factory. A glass master (I _think_ it is glass) is produced and is used to press the CD. As long as it is assembled correctly (and especially, it seems, sealed around the edges) then that it likely to be the most stable form of CD. Unless something gets inside and starts to eat the aluminium, then it should be fine. (Obviously I'm excluding physical damage, etc.) For +/-R media the laser burns a pit in a special layer in the disc to create a pit. For the +/-RW forms the laser causes a reversible phase change to create an optical pit (heating it up again causes the change to reverse, hence blanking the pit). >From the point of view of the user, the +/-R forms cannot be erased once they are written, although you can write a new table of contents (TOC), so that it looks like you have overwritten the old data, but in fact it is still there There are programs which will dig it out for you. I supposed theoretically you could blank a CD-R by burning every possible pit, but if you are security conscious, just break it (or shred it). When you "finalise" a DVD-R it can no longer be written to. I _think_ that all that has happened is that some bits have been set on a reserved area of the medium to tell the drive not to write to it any more. Unless you have a rogue drive (or maybe rogue software) then this is probably as safe as a floppy write-protect tab. The +/-RW forms can be fully erased and reused (1000x is the claim, yeah right!). Regardless of whether these are more or less stable than -R, they are clearly of limited use for long term archiving, since there is always a risk that they will get blanked and reused for "something more important". There's also DVD-RAM, but I don't think that's very important for our purposes. Then there is the whole +/- debate, but these days that has mostly died away. You ?20 (high-end :-)) DVD rewriter will write to CD-R,CD-RW,DVD-R,DVD+R,DVD-RW,DVD+RW,DVD-RAM and dual layer DVD-R (~8GB, but the disks are about 5x the cost of a DVD-R). Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 15:55:42 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:55:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <200702062155.l16LtgOC088310@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:23, Jim Leonard wrote: **>> snip <<** > > I don't see the correlation. What good is bette r > error correction if > > it's built on a less reliable technology? > > Well said :) If the optical media were enclosed in a > case (CD caddies, > anyone?) then at least it would go some way toward > preventing damage from > scratches, fingerprints etc. **>> snip <<** > > cheers > > Jules > I remember CD caddies :) I recall back at secondary school in my first year there (year 7 for UK'ers), in 1990/1, that the new computer in the library used CD's which were in see through plastic. Essentially the "CD" of the time was like floppy discs - the writable media (medium?) was encased in protective plastic shell. I haven't seen any like that ever since. I don't suppose anyone on this list has any like that?? If so, I'd love to see a picture of it, please. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 16:22:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:22:42 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:30:22 -0700. <45C8E55E.8070309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: The initial comments are relevant to this conversation! :-) Pete Townshend in his studio - part 1 of 2 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 6 14:49:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:49:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <929386.83301.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 5, 7 04:42:41 pm Message-ID: > I guess this could be said about a lot of units, but > a coco in particular seems to be a pretty good way of > studying computer hardware initially. The 6800 was > fairly commonly used in sbc's back in those days, and > the 6809 is just a step up from that. I can't say The 6809 is one of the best of the 8 bit CPUs IMHO. The CoCo is not a bad machine either. If you're interested in hardware, then the CoCo 1 or 2 are the machines to look for becuase they're all standard chips (the design was based on a Motorola application note covering the 6809, 6883 (SAM) and 6847 (VDG) chips, I believe). The CoCo 3 is a much nicer machine to use (80 column text display, lower case text, beter grpahics, etc), but the interesting stuff is in a custom chip called GIME (Grpahics Interruopts, Memory Enhansments IIRC). But at lest you could get offiical service manuals and schematics, and there were unofficial commented disassemblies of the ROMs out there. Before the free unices for PCs, a CoOo was probably the cheapest way to run a multi-user OS (OS-9). I certianly enjoyed it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 6 14:37:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:37:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CBM 8032 Garbage on Screen In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 5, 7 07:03:22 pm Message-ID: > > Now, I seem to remember that on 80 column PETs, the 2K video memory is > > made up of 4 1K*4 chips and that alternate characters are stored in each > > pair of chips (one pair of chips stores all the chracters in odd-numbered > > locations on the screen the other pair the characters in even-numbered > > locations). That would explain why you have problems with alternate > > characters. > > Hmm... I didn't know about the even-odd interleave, but that'd be easy > to check against the schematics. Well, I'd not bet my life on it (it's been some years since I've been inside a PET 8032), I am farily sure I've rememebered that correctly. It was something a little odd that stuck in my mind. > > > And you guessed it,. Those RAMs are 2114s, a chip well-known around here > > for failing in oadd ways. > > Exactly. In a PET, it's much more likely that a 2114 has failed than > a bus buffer or similar IC. > In _anything_ it's more likely a 2114 has fialed than just about any other compoennt. I've lost count of the number of 2114's I've replaced. But I rememeber fixing an HP37201 HPIN extender, HP82163 video interface, TRS-809 Model 3 with video problems, CBM 8050 all by replacing 2114s. If you don't ahve much test gear and beleive iin lucky-dip troubleshooting, go for those chips first ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 6 14:44:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:44:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <189854.69782.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 5, 7 04:36:00 pm Message-ID: > > > > > some pcs didnt have dma. Tandy 1000...IBM > > Peanut...Sanyo MBC-5xx too IIRC... > > > Correct (well, it was option in the Tandy 1000, it > > was included on the > > RAM expansion board). > > What was it, the 8237, actually came on the ram > board? I probably knew this at one time. I have about I beleive it was. IIRC the Tandy 1000 was originally intended as a PC-jr compatible. I don't know if any later 1000-series machines had DMA as standard, though. These amchines are not particularly common in the UK, we ahd our own range of cheap PC-compatibles made by Amstrad (all of which, AFAIK, had DMA controllers as standard). > I used to call things like that semi-compatible, but > the term is misleading. Now I just say pseudo- I use the term' IBM incompatibles' to cover such machines (and the Victor 9000/Sirius, HP150, HP110, DEC Rainboq, etc). That is, 8086/8088 based machines that run MS-DOS but which will not run most IBM PC programs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 6 14:39:42 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted In-Reply-To: <20070205155751.J67689@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 5, 7 04:10:35 pm Message-ID: > > > > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or > > > Model 4? > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes :-). Unfotunately I've only seen said advert on a monochrome TV, so I > > can't tell you which it is (the M3 is grey, the M4 is white). > > The Model 4 has a "control" key that the 1 and three do not. And the M4 has 5 roews of keys on the number pad, not 4 (The top row are 3 function keys). But in this TV advert the computer is shown front-on in only part of the picture, so it's not possible to see details like that on a normal TV set. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 16:25:14 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:25:14 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:53:11 +0000. <003901c74a39$33acc360$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: In article <003901c74a39$33acc360$4f04010a at uatempname>, writes: > pit, but if you are security conscious, just break it (or > shred it) I like 5 seconds in the microwave myself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 6 16:28:19 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:28:19 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702062155.l16LtgOC088310@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 6/2/07 21:55, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: > I remember CD caddies :) > > I recall back at secondary school in my first > year there (year 7 for UK'ers), in 1990/1, that > the new computer in the library used CD's > which were in see through plastic. > Essentially the "CD" of the time was like > floppy discs - the writable media (medium?) > was encased in protective plastic shell. Sounds like the Philips 1x speed CD that was used by DEC as the RRD40. It took standard CD-ROMs but they were inserted in a plastic shell because the drive had no tray or any other means of supporting the CD. My own RRD40 caddies are 250 miles away but I've got a drive at work :) In the meanwhile, look towards the bottom of this page: http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 16:58:23 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:58:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <200702062258.l16MwNxQ091153@keith.ezwind.net> --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > Yeah, me three. > > > > I'd like to know what the difference is between > > a writable (write/rewrite) CD/DVD and > > ordinary ones. > > How do you "write-protect" a CD/DVD?? > > The "ordinary" ones are pressed at a factory. A > glass > master (I _think_ it is glass) is produced and is > used to press the CD. As long as it is assembled > correctly (and especially, it seems, sealed around > the > edges) then that it likely to be the most stable > form of CD. Unless something gets inside and start s > to eat the aluminium, then it should be fine. > (Obviously > I'm excluding physical damage, etc.) > > For +/-R media the laser burns a pit in a special > layer > in the disc to create a pit. For the +/-RW forms t he > laser causes a > reversible phase change to create an optical pit > (heating it > up again causes the change to reverse, hence > blanking the pit). > > >From the point of view of the user, the +/-R form s > cannot be > erased once they are written, although you can wri te > a new > table of contents (TOC), so that it looks like you > have > overwritten the old data, but in fact it is still > there > There are programs which will dig it out for you. I > supposed > theoretically you could blank a CD-R by burning > every possible > pit, but if you are security conscious, just break > it (or > shred it). When you "finalise" a DVD-R it can no > longer be > written to. I _think_ that all that has happened i s > that > some bits have been set on a reserved area of the > medium > to tell the drive not to write to it any more. > Unless > you have a rogue drive (or maybe rogue software) > then this > is probably as safe as a floppy write-protect tab. > > The +/-RW forms can be fully erased and reused > (1000x is the > claim, yeah right!). Regardless of whether these a re > more or > less stable than -R, they are clearly of limited u se > for > long term archiving, since there is always a risk > that they > will get blanked and reused for "something more > important". > > There's also DVD-RAM, but I don't think that's ver y > important > for our purposes. > > Then there is the whole +/- debate, but these days > that has > mostly died away. You ?20 (high-end :-)) DVD > rewriter will > write to > CD-R,CD-RW,DVD-R,DVD+R,DVD-RW,DVD+RW,DVD-RAM > and dual layer DVD-R (~8GB, but the disks are abou t > 5x the > cost of a DVD-R). > > Antonio > Thanks for that. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 17:07:55 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:07:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <200702062307.l16N7tRb091575@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Graham wr ote: > On 6/2/07 21:55, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" > > wrote: > > > I remember CD caddies :) > > > > I recall back at secondary school in my first > > year there (year 7 for UK'ers), in 1990/1, that > > the new computer in the library used CD's > > which were in see through plastic. > > Essentially the "CD" of the time was like > > floppy discs - the writable media (medium?) > > was encased in protective plastic shell. > > Sounds like the Philips 1x speed CD that was used by > DEC as the RRD40. It > took standard CD-ROMs but they were inserted in a > plastic shell because the > drive had no tray or any other means of supporting > the CD. > > My own RRD40 caddies are 250 miles away but I've g ot > a drive at work :) > > In the meanwhile, look towards the bottom of this > page: > > http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest priva te > home computer > collection? > Thanks. Yeah, that looks about right. So why were the caddies ditched?? Was it simply cost, or that the CD drives themselves were improved? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 17:18:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:18:14 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45C89C36.18699.F5F1925@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 15:25, Richard wrote: > I like 5 seconds in the microwave myself. A lot of fun to watch, but a bit smelly--and very effective. This past Christmas, I hung a couple of zapped CDs on the tree. If I were more artistic, I would have cut them into interesting shapes first. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 17:25:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:25:02 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C89C36.18699.F5F1925@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <45C89C36.18699.F5F1925@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C90E4E.6040905@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Feb 2007 at 15:25, Richard wrote: > >> I like 5 seconds in the microwave myself. > > A lot of fun to watch, but a bit smelly--and very effective. This > past Christmas, I hung a couple of zapped CDs on the tree. If I were > more artistic, I would have cut them into interesting shapes first. I thought it wasn't good for the microwave. Peace... Sridhar From fryers at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 17:26:27 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:26:27 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702062307.l16N7tRb091575@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702062307.l16N7tRb091575@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: G'Day, On 06/02/07, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: [discussion on caddies] > Yeah, that looks about right. So why were the > caddies ditched?? Was it simply cost, or that > the CD drives themselves were improved? I am going to make a huge assumption and say that it was a design iteration. It went from having CD drives that required the CDs to be placed in a special caddy, to CD drives that just required the CD's to be placed in the tray - just like the audio CD players. Again, another huge assumption. It would appear that the caddies were required for for better alignment of the CD. But, as lenses and servo technology improved, compensation for disk loading was introduced, eliminating the need for a caddy. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 6 17:30:35 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:30:35 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C90E4E.6040905@gmail.com> References: >, <45C89C36.18699.F5F1925@cclist.sydex.com> <45C90E4E.6040905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C90F9B.7050901@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I thought it wasn't good for the microwave. Just AOL disks. :) > Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 17:32:37 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:32:37 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:18:14 -0800. <45C89C36.18699.F5F1925@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45C89C36.18699.F5F1925 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 6 Feb 2007 at 15:25, Richard wrote: > > > I like 5 seconds in the microwave myself. > > A lot of fun to watch, but a bit smelly--and very effective. If its smelly, you used too much time. You just want enough time for the arcing to start -- any longer and you cook the plastic and get the smell. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 17:33:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:33:45 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:25:02 -0500. <45C90E4E.6040905@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <45C90E4E.6040905 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > I thought it wasn't good for the microwave. It just dissipates the energy by arcing instead of heating water molecules; I don't see how the microwave itself could tell the difference, but I'm no expert. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Feb 6 17:36:41 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:36:41 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just "pushing" the technology a bit. Storage for CD-Rs in stlil in styrene jewel cases. We'll occasionally use PVC cases as mailers (they survive the rigors of the USPS better), but we advise customers to use traditional styrene cases for storage. From what I've read on the archivists' list, some PVC material has been found to outgas chlorine. Cheers, Chuck -------------------------------------------------- I never quite know how to take all the disk bashing that seems to come up periodically on this list. One point that seems to be missed is that the DVD play back is influenced by the reliability of the laser diode. And that diode is subjected to thermal stresses far beyond those of the CD-ROM laser diodes. At the junction temperatures used in DVD burners, the life of the diode is a small fraction of the CD-ROM diodes. It also deteriorates in performance from the junction breaking down. Consequently the playback life of the player is significantly reduced. Yet it is always the media that takes the hit. Everybody else seems to have lots of horror stories about media. I don't. I want to again state that I have seen CD's burned in the 1976-77 time period that can still be read. And I've seen DVDs from the early 90's that can also still be read. Reliably. But the moves to cut the cost of the players to sub-$50 means that many companies are using substandard laser parts, or parts with shorter rated life (which are a lot cheaper.) Every study I have seen shows that CDs and DVDs have a much longer life span than magnetic media, especially floppies. Another point made that I do agree with - because of all the music CDs made, the players will not go away. All the major players in CDs and DVDs have tried for many years to force to another form factor. Those mostly empty 5.25" chasses are really offensive to design engineers trying to push the state of the art. And how can you resell the same music again, if you don't change form factor or format? But the customer base won't budge. They don't want to render obsolete their sizeable investment in CDs. (Last year I have data for shows annual production of CDs in the billions world wide!) Legacy demands will keep the 5.25" form factor around for the rest of my life. Can't speak for you youngsters. But say another 25 years minimum. Shame really - I saw some lovely little Blu Ray 20mm disks that held as much video as the current DVD. Gives you a DVD player that could be built into a cell phone or toy. But every customer survey showed massive resistance to change from 5.25". PVC does outgas Chlorine - and other volatiles. Does nasty stuff to the reflective films in DVDs. Most jewel cases are better. But oddly enough, the self cleaning paper sleeves caused the least affects - except for shock events. Billy From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Feb 6 17:53:44 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:53:44 -0800 Subject: Egg TV adverts - old computer spotted In-Reply-To: References: <20070205155751.J67689@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 5, 7 04:10:35 pm Message-ID: <183d01c74a4a$1594ff30$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- > > > > Right at the end of the latest Egg Money advert, is that a TRS Model 3 or > > > Model 4? > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes :-). Unfotunately I've only seen said advert on a monochrome TV, so I > > can't tell you which it is (the M3 is grey, the M4 is white). > > The Model 4 has a "control" key that the 1 and three do not. ------ There are grey Model IV's also From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 6 17:54:11 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:54:11 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C90E4E.6040905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702062353.l16NrtGN093559@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:25:02 -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 6 Feb 2007 at 15:25, Richard wrote: >> >>> I like 5 seconds in the microwave myself. >> >> A lot of fun to watch, but a bit smelly--and very effective. This >> past Christmas, I hung a couple of zapped CDs on the tree. If I were >> more artistic, I would have cut them into interesting shapes first. >I thought it wasn't good for the microwave. >Peace... Sridhar Are we talking Classic microwaves or the new modern more off topic kind :-) runing for cover back under my rock ... Bob From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 6 18:01:30 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:01:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> --- Billy Pettit wrote: > **>> snip <<** > > Everybody else seems to have lots of horror storie s > about media. I don't. > I want to again state that I have seen CD's burned > in the 1976-77 time > period that can still be read. And I've seen DVDs > from the early 90's that > can also still be read. Reliably. > **>> snip <<** > > Billy > Woah... I thought CD's were invented in 1982? I remember it easily as thats the year my younger brother was born. Or was that the year they first came to the UK/Europe?? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From fryers at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 18:32:45 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:32:45 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: References: <45C90E4E.6040905@gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 06/02/07, Richard wrote: > > In article <45C90E4E.6040905 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > I thought it wasn't good for the microwave. > > It just dissipates the energy by arcing instead of heating water > molecules; I don't see how the microwave itself could tell the > difference, but I'm no expert. Every time I have done this, the CD has rested upon a glass of water. Not one broken micorwave so far! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 18:33:50 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:33:50 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Woah... > > I thought CD's were invented in 1982? > I remember it easily as thats the year my > younger brother was born. The Sony-Phillips format we know of as CDs, yes, but there were other formats before then, mostly proprietary. -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 6 18:34:43 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:34:43 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003e01c74a4f$c9666030$4f04010a@uatempname> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/2/07 21:55, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" > wrote: > >> I remember CD caddies :) >> >> I recall back at secondary school in my first >> year there (year 7 for UK'ers), in 1990/1, that >> the new computer in the library used CD's >> which were in see through plastic. >> Essentially the "CD" of the time was like >> floppy discs - the writable media (medium?) >> was encased in protective plastic shell. > > Sounds like the Philips 1x speed CD that was used by DEC as the > RRD40. It took standard CD-ROMs but they were inserted in a plastic > shell because the drive had no tray or any other means of supporting > the CD. > > My own RRD40 caddies are 250 miles away but I've got a drive at work > :) Mine are right here but you've saved me the bother of photographing an example (the bit that pulls out was called the "antlers" apparently). I would have thought that seven years ago the RRD40 was already a distant memory. (Its predecessor BTW was the RRD50 which was a tabletop unit top-loading CD-ROM that was _slower_ than 1x!) In a school in 1990 I would guess that this is just the standard "flip-top" lid caddy that many early CD-ROM units used. I can see ten of them over to the left; I could take a snap of one of those too but there must be gazillions on the net already. Indeed here is one: http://www.weirdstuff.com/mas_assets/thumb/16024.jpg and here's a diagram from SGI just to be clear about how it works: http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi/0650/bks/SGI_EndU ser/books/PChall_L_OG/sgi_html/ch04.html Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 6 18:35:07 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:35:07 -0700 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I thought CD's were invented in 1982? > I remember it easily as thats the year my > younger brother was born. I am still waiting for my CD's from UK/Europe. All the ones I want are out of print. > Or was that the year they first came to the > UK/Europe?? I am still recovering from the Beatles invasion from this side of the pond. Do you still have a wide selection of music CD's or have they like the USA only the NEW fad music in stock? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 18:35:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:35:37 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45C8AE59.27831.FA5F16B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 15:36, Billy Pettit wrote: >> Everybody else seems to have lots of horror stories about media. I don't. > I want to again state that I have seen CD's burned in the 1976-77 time > period that can still be read. And I've seen DVDs from the early 90's that > can also still be read. Reliably. Here's a 2004 study on the subject done by NIST: http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwog/StabilityStudy.pdf Beyond this, so much out there falls in the area of sold-silver speaker wire and gold-plated mains receptacles (you know what I mean). FWIW, there were some early CDs that used a silver instead of an aluminum reflective layer. The mortality on these was supposedly significant. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 19:05:19 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:05:19 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > Another point made that I do agree with - because of all the music CDs made, > the players will not go away. All the major players in CDs and DVDs have > tried for many years to force to another form factor. Those mostly empty > 5.25" chasses are really offensive to design engineers trying to push the > state of the art. And how can you resell the same music again, if you don't > change form factor or format? > > But the customer base won't budge. They don't want to render obsolete their > sizeable investment in CDs. (Last year I have data for shows annual > production of CDs in the billions world wide!) Legacy demands will keep the > 5.25" form factor around for the rest of my life. Can't speak for you > youngsters. But say another 25 years minimum. I agree - the CD format will not completely die any time soon, or even in the distant future. There will always be demand to read music CDs. There is a huge number of artists that release things on CDs every year. Most of these artists are releasing their first work, probably on independent labels in pressings of less that 2000 disks. Yes, most of these artists go nowhere - maybe the band breaks up, the musicians are not serious, maybe someone died, or maybe (often) the music just sucked. There are, however, a very few that stick up from the crowd, and become very successful, maybe even cultural icons. Typically, a major label picks them up, and away they go. Often, however, those mega-success artists have a backcatalog of obscure recordings on CD - maybe tied up in an independent label, maybe too harsh or underproduced for the mainstream, or maybe the artist just wants to disown it. The fate of these is that many do not get rereleased. Look into the detailed history of many popular artists today - you will see there is often an album before their first album, or a bunch of tracks only found on weird compilations. There can be a huge demand for these obscure backcatalog CDs. They will likely never get rereleased by the major labels on whatever format is king at the time - not enough money to be made. There will be people that will want to play their copy of some superobscure live recording or remix of some well established band that is only available on CD. And so, there will be CD players to play them. Yes, they probably will become niche items in the audio world, much like turntables - but if you are serious enough, you will shell out the money. I am quite amazed by the toughness of the CD. I only have one that is rotting a little, but it is from a known batch of crummy CDs Wax Trax! made around 1991 or so. Even with burned CDs - they just always work for me. I wonder just what you people do to your disks to make them so unreliable. They are not coasters for your beer. Somewhat related, I am also somewhat amazed by my old Sony CD player - now pushing 18 years of age, and still going strong. It has a very crudely implemented error recoverly system, so if there is a small scratch, you actually here a pop. My one rotting CD pops quite a lot, almost a steady static. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 6 19:26:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:26:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arty computers In-Reply-To: <20070205174703.A74937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <126799.84179.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The Sony SMC-70 had an obviously "Italian > Exotic" > > > design, if you're into > > > such. > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Oi I don't know what you're talking about. Show > me > > other examples of this if you want to persuade me. > I > > talking only about the physical appearance and > design of the case; > not even considering the engineering aspects. I realize that, just that I hadn't thought of the design being Italian. I had never even seen an Italian computer, except for the AT & T 6300 aka the Olivetti something or other, aaka the Xerox something or other. All I can vouch for is their ruggedness. I'm quite sure that if you hurled one at a brick wall, it would just keep going. I found one out in the wilderness one day (actually slightly set in the woods off of route 9 in Freehold, NJ), monitor sitting atop. The thing had evidently set up as a kids play center thing, unfortunately w/o the keyboard. I asked the owners of the property if I could have it, and they said sure. I hope the kiddies didn't mind. Brought it home and fired it up. Monitor and cpu worked, kinda. Unfortunately someone pulled the cpu card out. But the p/s seemed to work fine. Monitor too, but it would either jump or roll. I had thought of taking a picture of the scene before I lifted it, and displaying it on a website w/the caption "who says vintage puters are hard to find"! LOL LOL LOL. And who says 2 or 3 seasons worth of snowfall and rain are detrimental to a computer's health. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Feb 6 19:55:20 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:55:20 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3B1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: Woah... I thought CD's were invented in 1982? I remember it easily as thats the year my younger brother was born. Or was that the year they first came to the UK/Europe?? Regards, Andrew D. Burton -------------------------------------------- CDs were being developed for more than a decade before they became commercial products. When I worked at Philips in the Optical Storage Group, I made several trips to the Philips labs in Eindhoven. There, Philips has displays of many of the original CD's and players, a few still working. It also gave me a chance to talk to some of the original engineers, at least the few who haven't retired by now. Going commercial with the new technology was a hell of a battle for Philips and later Sony. It was not instantly embraced. Billy From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 6 20:02:01 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:02:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: wire wrap machine Message-ID: There's a wire-wrap machine of some sort on Ebay (#290079310287) just in case someone in Colorado wants to redo their PDP-10 backplane. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Feb 6 20:24:03 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:24:03 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3B2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > It is rare that they fail completely (they usually slowly develop > errors over time in heavy use until you have to replace them). But > let me tell you, if you get the one rare one that does fail, it fails > SPECTACULARLY. As in, it takes the drive with it! I've had one CD-R shatter and the drive was indeed unusable after that. I tried to repair it, but after an hour of clearing bits out and putting the thing back together, testing, dismantling, rinse, lather, repeat I decided it wasn't worth the hassle. I still have it in case I magically run out of CD drives in some far distant future ... Antonio ------------------------------------------------------- One of the last projects we did at Philips US, was a study to see how fast we could spin the disk before it shattered. A friend of mine, a mechanical engineer, did the testing. He had a blast. It was like a mini version of Mythbusters. Even had the high speed television camera. To accelerate the process he would often nick or chip the edge of the inner hole. When they split - literally - it was right through the front door of the drive. He finally got his own lab so the rest of us would feel safer. But what a fun job he had! He loved his work. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Feb 6 20:30:32 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:30:32 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3B3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: I remember CD caddies :) I recall back at secondary school in my first year there (year 7 for UK'ers), in 1990/1, that the new computer in the library used CD's which were in see through plastic. Essentially the "CD" of the time was like floppy discs - the writable media (medium?) was encased in protective plastic shell. I haven't seen any like that ever since. I don't suppose anyone on this list has any like that?? If so, I'd love to see a picture of it, please. Regards, Andrew D. Burton ---------------------------------- I have a couple at home but can't get to them right now. If you want, I'll write myself a tickler note and send you one the next time I come across them. Also see them in the flea markets occasionally. Billy From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Feb 6 20:32:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:32:44 -0600 Subject: wire wrap machine References: Message-ID: <001001c74a60$3fcfd750$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote... > There's a wire-wrap machine of some sort on Ebay (#290079310287) just in > case someone in Colorado wants to redo their PDP-10 backplane. It says it's set up for wiring 3070 test fixtures? Hummm - a company I did a short stint at was a service organization for Agilent automated test equipment (as well as the agilent medical gear). I recall they had a fleet of people who worked on a "3070 automated test machine". Bet it's releated. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 20:32:32 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:32:32 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Somewhat related, I am also somewhat amazed by my old Sony CD player - > now pushing 18 years of age, and still going strong. I still have my first-ever audio CD player (and it's still plugged in and hooked up), well over 20 years old (22? 23?) If it doesn't work now as well as it did then, I can't tell the difference. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 6 20:35:01 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:35:01 -0800 Subject: wire wrap machine Message-ID: <45C93AD5.600@bitsavers.org> > There's a wire-wrap machine of some sort on Ebay This is a semi-automatic unit. A from-to list is generated on a computer with lengths and the unit moves to the start-end points. The manual wire-wrap gun sits in the slot that the table moves to. Don't see the wire bins.. Normally a light would appear next to the bin to pull the wire from. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 6 21:09:51 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Feb 6, 7 09:32:32 pm" Message-ID: <200702070309.l1739piw015678@floodgap.com> > > Somewhat related, I am also somewhat amazed by my old Sony CD player - > > now pushing 18 years of age, and still going strong. > > I still have my first-ever audio CD player (and it's still plugged in > and hooked up), well over 20 years old (22? 23?) If it doesn't work > now as well as it did then, I can't tell the difference. My Denon is about 14 years old. Doing good too. Can't say the same for *some* players I've owned (thinks of Magnavox crap in wastebasket about three months later just after the warranty expired). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Babylon 5, "Deathwalker" ---------- From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 6 21:43:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:43:06 -0600 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) Message-ID: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> I hate to re-open a common thread, but I've tried both Goo-Gone and a hair drier to remove old labels from diskettes, and it hasn't gone well: Hair drier: I have to heat the disk so much that I warp the jacket if I'm not careful. Way too much work (5+ minutes of low heat) per disk. Goo-Gone: doesn't appear to penetrate the paper of the label! I mean, it does, but I have to apply it twice (both times with my finger, otherwise the cloth soaks up too much)... and only then does it marginally work. But worse, what's left over is some petroleum-ish film that I can't remove, even with soap and water. Check the following photo: http://www.oldskool.org/misc/residue.jpg So I wonder how well a new label will stick with that film on it... So, are there any other alternatives? Or am I incredibly inept and missing a step or botching a procedure? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 6 21:54:21 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:54:21 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I did come across an article which was _slightly_ more technical > than the others I've seen. It boiled down to "DVD+R is better > because the way it tracks the data stream and the error correction > were both improved" (or something like that). Naturally I now canot > find any trace of it. (Not that it went into sufficient depth, > it just scratched the surface a little deeper than the other > articles I've seen). And yet, DVD-R has traditionally been recognized as more compatible with set-top devices. So go figure :-) However, the basic substrate tech is the same between DVD and CD so my comment about more error correction is still valid. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 6 21:58:59 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:58:59 -0500 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <006f01c74a6c$74027530$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:43 PM Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) > I hate to re-open a common thread, but I've tried both Goo-Gone and a > hair drier to remove old labels from diskettes, and it hasn't gone well: > > Hair drier: I have to heat the disk so much that I warp the jacket if > I'm not careful. Way too much work (5+ minutes of low heat) per disk. > > Goo-Gone: doesn't appear to penetrate the paper of the label! I mean, > it does, but I have to apply it twice (both times with my finger, > otherwise the cloth soaks up too much)... and only then does it > marginally work. But worse, what's left over is some petroleum-ish film > that I can't remove, even with soap and water. Check the following photo: > http://www.oldskool.org/misc/residue.jpg > So I wonder how well a new label will stick with that film on it... > > So, are there any other alternatives? Or am I incredibly inept and > missing a step or botching a procedure? > -- I would think there are 3 ways to remove a solvent: 1. heat it up so that it will peal off 2. soak it with a like solvent to float it off 3. super cool it so that the glue will no longer hold Have any liquid nitrogen handy? :) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 22:00:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:00:02 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702070309.l1739piw015678@floodgap.com> References: from Ethan Dicks at "Feb 6, 7 09:32:32 pm", <200702070309.l1739piw015678@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45C8DE42.8767.1061181B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 19:09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Somewhat related, I am also somewhat amazed by my old Sony CD player - > > > now pushing 18 years of age, and still going strong. > > > > I still have my first-ever audio CD player (and it's still plugged in > > and hooked up), well over 20 years old (22? 23?) If it doesn't work > > now as well as it did then, I can't tell the difference. > > My Denon is about 14 years old. Doing good too. In the my office, I've got a Sony CDP-102 (sticker on the back says April, 1985) sitting on top of a Sansui 2000A receiver with a couple of Dyna A25 speakers. Other than having to replace some pilot lamps in the Sansui, all of it's the way it came out of the box new. The Sony's a little finicky on CD-Rs, but otherwise works just fine. The Sansui was picked up at Toad Hall in Chicago in the late 60's. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 6 22:01:00 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:01:00 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3B2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3B2@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45C94EFC.6050001@oldskool.org> Billy Pettit wrote: > One of the last projects we did at Philips US, was a study to see how fast > we could spin the disk before it shattered. A friend of mine, a mechanical > engineer, did the testing. He had a blast. It was like a mini version of > Mythbusters. Even had the high speed television camera. Mythbusters actually did this! It was hilarious to watch. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 6 22:05:42 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:05:42 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > I did come across an article which was _slightly_ more technical > > than the others I've seen. It boiled down to "DVD+R is better > > because the way it tracks the data stream and the error correction > > were both improved" (or something like that). Naturally I now canot > > find any trace of it. (Not that it went into sufficient depth, > > it just scratched the surface a little deeper than the other > > articles I've seen). > > And yet, DVD-R has traditionally been recognized as more compatible with > set-top devices. So go figure :-) > > However, the basic substrate tech is the same between DVD and CD so my > comment about more error correction is still valid. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont recognize those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 22:03:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:03:40 -0800 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) In-Reply-To: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C8DF1C.23334.10646B9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 21:43, Jim Leonard wrote: > Goo-Gone: doesn't appear to penetrate the paper of the label! I mean, > it does, but I have to apply it twice (both times with my finger, > otherwise the cloth soaks up too much)... and only then does it > marginally work. But worse, what's left over is some petroleum-ish film > that I can't remove, even with soap and water. Are you sure that it's a left-over film and not the GG dissolving a bit of the jacket and giving a shine to it? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 6 22:09:36 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:09:36 -0600 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) In-Reply-To: <006f01c74a6c$74027530$0b01a8c0@game> References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> <006f01c74a6c$74027530$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45C95100.7070601@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > 3. super cool it so that the glue will no longer hold > > Have any liquid nitrogen handy? :) Nope, but I have compressed air I can hold upside down. ;-) Let me try it: LOL! Yes, I don't think *frost* on a diskette is good for it: http://www.oldskool.org/misc/frost.jpg And it didn't help in getting the label off either :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 22:22:12 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:22:12 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45C8DE42.8767.1061181B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702070309.l1739piw015678@floodgap.com> <45C8DE42.8767.1061181B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702062022x6532dc61w769f2f9fef09e3d9@mail.gmail.com> On 2/6/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6 Feb 2007 at 19:09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > Somewhat related, I am also somewhat amazed by my old Sony CD player > - > > > > now pushing 18 years of age, and still going strong. > > > > > > I still have my first-ever audio CD player (and it's still plugged in > > > and hooked up), well over 20 years old (22? 23?) If it doesn't work > > > now as well as it did then, I can't tell the difference. > > > > My Denon is about 14 years old. Doing good too. > > In the my office, I've got a Sony CDP-102 (sticker on the back says > April, 1985) sitting on top of a Sansui 2000A receiver with a couple > of Dyna A25 speakers. Other than having to replace some pilot lamps > in the Sansui, all of it's the way it came out of the box new. The > Sony's a little finicky on CD-Rs, but otherwise works just fine. The > Sansui was picked up at Toad Hall in Chicago in the late 60's. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > My family has a Dell XPS T500 which shipped with a DVD-ROM drive and a CD-RW drive...(came with 98...was around 1998...yep they're that behind in technology :P)...the DVD-ROM drive was naturally the main drive until about 3 years of us having the Dell (2001) the drive has stopped reading discs...indeed it does seem that the diode in dvd-rom drives has a much shorter life span then regular cd-rom drives or even cd-rw drives (we now use the cd-rw drive as the main drive and for cd burning as it's still working great) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Feb 6 22:25:00 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:25:00 -0600 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org><006f01c74a6c$74027530$0b01a8c0@game> <45C95100.7070601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <029401c74a6f$ee90f0d0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Wierd... I have never had a problem with Goo-Gone not removing a label, and I use it quite frequently. Sometimes on old dry labels it take a fair amount of soaking, but I've always lifted the label off fairly easily. Once in a while I use a sideways razorblade (in a holder) to lift it after the googone soaking. Jay From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 22:24:54 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:24:54 -0800 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> What does a unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? As in, what happened to cause it? Thanks! :) P.S. Tried googling and came up with nothing :eek: :( ...reason I'm asking is because I've got a app I want to run on a 'ol SE of mine but when it starts to open a unimplemented trap bomb error message is thrown (Mac OS 7.1) and thus I'd like to know what exactly happens to cause that bomb...thanks! :) P.S.S The app that causes the bomb is speedometer (I believe it's version 1.0..not totally sure though) From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 6 22:27:02 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:27:02 -0600 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) In-Reply-To: <45C8DF1C.23334.10646B9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> <45C8DF1C.23334.10646B9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45C95516.5070506@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Feb 2007 at 21:43, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Goo-Gone: doesn't appear to penetrate the paper of the label! I mean, >> it does, but I have to apply it twice (both times with my finger, >> otherwise the cloth soaks up too much)... and only then does it >> marginally work. But worse, what's left over is some petroleum-ish film >> that I can't remove, even with soap and water. > > Are you sure that it's a left-over film and not the GG dissolving a > bit of the jacket and giving a shine to it? No, I'm not sure at all. While Goo-Gone smells like orange oil, the label says "petroleum distillates". I am not a chemist; what are disk jackets made of, and would Goo-Gone do what you're describing? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 6 22:27:54 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:27:54 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont recognize > those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's. 1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year right? What is the make and model number? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 6 22:37:57 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:37:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Feb 6, 7 08:24:54 pm" Message-ID: <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> > What does a unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? As in, what happened > to cause it? Thanks! :) It's like it says -- there's a particular software trap that the routine is calling, and that trap doesn't exist. I see this message with: - bad RAM - bad cache (not going to be a problem on an SE, but it could be for, say, a IIci) - corrupt application - application requiring a later or different version of the OS -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 22:47:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:47:32 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062022x6532dc61w769f2f9fef09e3d9@mail.gmail.com> References: , <45C8DE42.8767.1061181B@cclist.sydex.com>, <5dc6fd9e0702062022x6532dc61w769f2f9fef09e3d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C8E964.2366.108C9308@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 20:22, Hex Star wrote: > My family has a Dell XPS T500 which shipped with a DVD-ROM drive and a CD-RW > drive...(came with 98...was around 1998...yep they're that behind in > technology :P)...the DVD-ROM drive was naturally the main drive until about > 3 years of us having the Dell (2001) the drive has stopped reading > discs...indeed it does seem that the diode in dvd-rom drives has a much > shorter life span then regular cd-rom drives or even cd-rw drives (we now > use the cd-rw drive as the main drive and for cd burning as it's still > working great) For everyday use machines, I like the CD-R/RW burner with DVD read capabiity. Can't burn DVDs, but can read them just fine. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 22:48:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:48:35 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:02:01 -0800. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > There's a wire-wrap machine of some sort on Ebay (#290079310287) just in > case someone in Colorado wants to redo their PDP-10 backplane. That reminds me of when I was an undergrad and I wire-wrapped something like 10,000 wires on a display processor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 6 22:49:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:49:34 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:35:01 -0800. <45C93AD5.600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45C93AD5.600 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > There's a wire-wrap machine of some sort on Ebay > > This is a semi-automatic unit. > > A from-to list is generated on a computer with lengths > and the unit moves to the start-end points. The manual > wire-wrap gun sits in the slot that the table moves to. > > Don't see the wire bins.. Normally a light would appear > next to the bin to pull the wire from. The one I used had you do all the long wires first, then the next shorter ones, etc. I think it just beeped when it was time to switch to the shorter wires. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 22:51:10 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:51:10 -0500 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/07, Hex Star wrote: > What does a unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? As in, what happened > to cause it? Thanks! :) If you got a bomb, shouldn't there be numbers associated with it? Those can be extremely useful in debugging these sorts of problems (yes... even AmigaDOS' Guru Meditation numbers, despite their reputation). The generic answer is that the MacOS for the 68K used trap vectors as a way for applications to call system routines, and that for whatever reason (software incompatibility, corrupt RAM, etc.), the app jumped to a trap vector in low mem that was never set to point to some useful routine. I.e. - it most likely still contains either a default vector to an "unimplemented" catch-all routine in the OS, or it points off into the weeds and something else caught it (like an odd-address trap or other 68K-centric trap). I don't know MacOS well enough to narrow it down further, but it sounds as if (presuming you don't have any hardware faults and your OS isn't corrupt on disk) the application in question is expecting some OS routine to be there and it isn't, the most likely cause is that your app is newer than your OS. Hope this untangles some of the mystery, -ethan From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 22:52:47 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:52:47 -0800 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> On 2/6/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > What does a unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? As in, what > happened > > to cause it? Thanks! :) > > It's like it says -- there's a particular software trap that the routine > is > calling, and that trap doesn't exist. > > I see this message with: > > - bad RAM > - bad cache (not going to be a problem on an SE, but it could be for, say, > a IIci) > - corrupt application > - application requiring a later or different version of the OS > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). > ------- > well what's a software trap? something that traps data? I don't think it has to do with the normal meaning of trap which is kind of confusing...IMO it would've been better if they didn't use trap for these errors... thanks for the reply! :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 6 23:03:18 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:03:18 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <009d01c74a75$48c33450$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence > Teo Zenios wrote: > > My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont recognize > > those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's. > > 1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year > right? What is the make and model number? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Genica GN-800 http://www.genica.com/Consumer%20Electronics/KaluaMP3-DVD.htm Maybe it was in 2000 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 6 22:59:55 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:59:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont recognize > > those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's. > > 1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year > right? What is the make and model number? I have (had) a cheapie Apex from about that time that would play MP3s. It was that infamous player that had the "you should not be here" back door that allowed you to change the player's region. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 6 23:05:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:05:44 -0800 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) In-Reply-To: <45C95516.5070506@oldskool.org> References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org>, <45C8DF1C.23334.10646B9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <45C95516.5070506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C8EDA8.2897.109D3B7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2007 at 22:27, Jim Leonard wrote: > No, I'm not sure at all. While Goo-Gone smells like orange oil, the > label says "petroleum distillates". I am not a chemist; what are disk > jackets made of, and would Goo-Gone do what you're describing? Goo Gone is petroleum naptha and citrus oil. http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/safety/MSDS/GOO- GONE%20STAIN%20REMOVER.htm Isn't a floppy jacket made of PET? I don't know what GG will do to it. I use mineral spirits to remove labels on mine. Cheers, Chuck From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 23:07:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:07:06 -0800 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702062107n6f77aac3o87daf2951ad29ec3@mail.gmail.com> On 2/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > Hope this untangles some of the mystery, > > -ethan > yep it does, thanks for the reply! :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 6 23:26:31 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:26:31 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00b201c74a78$86d7a980$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:59 PM Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence > On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont recognize > > > those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's. > > > > 1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year > > right? What is the make and model number? > > I have (had) a cheapie Apex from about that time that would play MP3s. It > was that infamous player that had the "you should not be here" back door > that allowed you to change the player's region. > > -- > David Griffith Mine is region free as well after doing a quick search on google years ago. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Feb 6 23:47:30 2007 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:47:30 -0500 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) In-Reply-To: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C967F2.9050603@internet1.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Goo-Gone: doesn't appear to penetrate the paper of the label! I mean, > it does, but I have to apply it twice Do you mean the paper label comes off leaving only the sticky stuff? If so, that is my experience also. Usually a soaking will get the glue off, but I'm not sure thats a good idea for a 5.25" floppy, especially since your picture shows the back side with the seems. > (both times with my finger, > otherwise the cloth soaks up too much)... and only then does it > marginally work. I usually just squirt it on, although maybe you have a bottle meant to be poured? > But worse, what's left over is some petroleum-ish film > that I can't remove, even with soap and water. Check the following photo: > http://www.oldskool.org/misc/residue.jpg > So I wonder how well a new label will stick with that film on it... Have your tried IPA/Propan-2-ol/2-propanol/Isopropanol/rubbing-alcohol/Isopropyl-Alcohol yet? How about ammonia and water? > So, are there any other alternatives? Or am I incredibly inept and > missing a step or botching a procedure? Could be either :-) Usually soaking will work, with a piece of TP on top of the Goo-gone so it won't run. I have had one situation of sticker gunk on the bottom of an IBM scsi chassis that would not repsond to Goo Gone even when soaked for a long time. I think I tried one or two other things, but never did get it off. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 00:17:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 01:17:01 -0500 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/07, Hex Star wrote: > well what's a software trap? something that traps data? Nope. Something that traps program execution. If you dig into the Motorola documentation for the 68000 processor, there's a number of pages (a whole chapter?) dedicated to how the trap architecture works. To attempt to summarize, in a simple architecture like the 6502, you have 3 fixed vector addresses in memory - all up at the top of the 65536-byte address space - I don't recall what order they come in, but one is the reset vector, one is the IRQ vector, and one is the NMI vector. In this context, a vector is an address to some code, not the code itself. So... when the reset pin is asserted or the interrupt request is asserted or the NMI (non-maskable interrupt) pin is asserted, the processor grabs 16 bits from a specific place at the top of memory and (leaving out a few details) stuffs that value in the program counter and starts executing at the address based on what was stored at the top of memory. With the 68000, it's *much* more complex. In addition to hardware interrupts doing something similar (but pulling from _low_ memory), events such as trying to execute from an odd address (it's OK to jump to $10000 but not $10001) or divide by zero or a variety of other pre-defined events, will cause unique vectors to be invoked, allowing all of these events to be handled in software, not just crashing the processor and forcing a reset. In addition, there are officially defined "trap" instructions as part of the 68000's instruction set - when the processor hits a TRAP instruction, a similar chain of events is set into motion - in other words, the processor acts like some hardware event happened, but _really_, it was a software event - the OS or application programmer _wanted_ the program flow to drop what it was doing and, using a fixed location in memory as a reference, jump to some routine elsewhere in memory. If you don't stuff the right 24-bit number (for a 68000) into your software trap vector addresses in low memory, the processor is going to end up going to some default routine that means, essentally, that code flow jumped to something that hasn't been defined yet. Rather than do nothing, the MacOS throws up a graphic and tells you that you ended up somewhere that was never changed from some catch-all default. It wasn't a hardware event, so the term "software trap" is entirely correct. > I don't think it has > to do with the normal meaning of trap which is kind of confusing...IMO it > would've been better if they didn't use trap for these errors... The word "trap" here is being used in a jargonistic sense, not a conversational English sense. For someone that knows how the 68000 works, the term is clear and completely correct. To someone who isn't technically savvy with processors at a very low level, it probably does look like gibberish. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 00:24:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 01:24:11 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 2/6/07, David Griffith wrote: > I have (had) a cheapie Apex from about that time that would play MP3s. It > was that infamous player that had the "you should not be here" back door > that allowed you to change the player's region. I have one of those (Apex AD-600A). It's awesome. It's still my primary player, 6-7 years later, and has made two round-trips with me to the Pole. One reason I keep it going is that when the transport (DVD-ROM mechanism) dies, I have a chance of replacing it - it's an ordinary IDE drive inside, just with a tray extension instead of a standard PC faceplate. It does play MP3s, but I don't think it knows about variable bit-rate files, and it's pretty stupid when interpreting the ISO-9660 filesystem - I am pretty sure that everything has to be in the root dir, and it only displays filenames as 8.3, _and_ it does char substitution on the menu so that spaces become "X"s, etc. Kinda hard to navigate, but you can just drop a CD-R (not DVD-R) full of MP3 files into it and press 'play'. Later Apex players have better filesystem navigators and can even play "naked" video files (just a plain MPG file in a plain filesystem, not run through an authoring tool). But this is drifting off-topic... -ethan From hexstar at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 00:30:53 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:30:53 -0800 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> On 2/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 2/6/07, Hex Star wrote: > > well what's a software trap? something that traps data? > > Nope. Something that traps program execution. If you dig into the > Motorola documentation for the 68000 processor, there's a number of > pages (a whole chapter?) dedicated to how the trap architecture works. > To attempt to summarize, in a simple architecture like the 6502, you > have 3 fixed vector addresses in memory - all up at the top of the > 65536-byte address space - I don't recall what order they come in, but > one is the reset vector, one is the IRQ vector, and one is the NMI > vector. In this context, a vector is an address to some code, not the > code itself. So... when the reset pin is asserted or the interrupt > request is asserted or the NMI (non-maskable interrupt) pin is > asserted, the processor grabs 16 bits from a specific place at the top > of memory and (leaving out a few details) stuffs that value in the > program counter and starts executing at the address based on what was > stored at the top of memory. With the 68000, it's *much* more > complex. In addition to hardware interrupts doing something similar > (but pulling from _low_ memory), events such as trying to execute from > an odd address (it's OK to jump to $10000 but not $10001) or divide by > zero or a variety of other pre-defined events, will cause unique > vectors to be invoked, allowing all of these events to be handled in > software, not just crashing the processor and forcing a reset. In > addition, there are officially defined "trap" instructions as part of > the 68000's instruction set - when the processor hits a TRAP > instruction, a similar chain of events is set into motion - in other > words, the processor acts like some hardware event happened, but > _really_, it was a software event - the OS or application programmer > _wanted_ the program flow to drop what it was doing and, using a fixed > location in memory as a reference, jump to some routine elsewhere in > memory. If you don't stuff the right 24-bit number (for a 68000) into > your software trap vector addresses in low memory, the processor is > going to end up going to some default routine that means, essentally, > that code flow jumped to something that hasn't been defined yet. > Rather than do nothing, the MacOS throws up a graphic and tells you > that you ended up somewhere that was never changed from some catch-all > default. It wasn't a hardware event, so the term "software trap" is > entirely correct. > > > I don't think it has > > to do with the normal meaning of trap which is kind of confusing...IMO > it > > would've been better if they didn't use trap for these errors... > > The word "trap" here is being used in a jargonistic sense, not a > conversational English sense. For someone that knows how the 68000 > works, the term is clear and completely correct. To someone who isn't > technically savvy with processors at a very low level, it probably > does look like gibberish. > > -ethan > ah wow...sounds like the detailed descriptions would be interesting to read (and the processor is alot more complex then one would think)...where can I find the documentation on the 68000 processor? thanks! :-) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Feb 7 00:37:47 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 04:37:47 -0200 Subject: Preservation of correspondence References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname><45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game><45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <01f401c74a83$13dfe540$f0fea8c0@alpha> > It does play MP3s, but I don't think it knows about variable bit-rate > files, and it's pretty stupid when interpreting the ISO-9660 > filesystem - I am pretty sure that everything has to be in the root > dir, and it only displays filenames as 8.3, _and_ it does char > substitution on the menu so that spaces become "X"s, etc. Kinda hard > to navigate, but you can just drop a CD-R (not DVD-R) full of MP3 > files into it and press 'play'. > Later Apex players have better filesystem navigators and can even play > "naked" video files (just a plain MPG file in a plain filesystem, not > run through an authoring tool). The "OFFA" firmware allowed it to play vbr MP3, naked video files et al. I'd tell you to grab it imediately :o) Ah, I also have one of these :o) Abs |AS From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 00:44:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:44:21 -0800 Subject: Removing labels (alternate methods?) In-Reply-To: <45C967F2.9050603@internet1.net> References: <45C94ACA.6020505@oldskool.org>, <45C967F2.9050603@internet1.net> Message-ID: <45C904C5.6269.10F78563@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2007 at 0:47, C Fernandez wrote: > > So, are there any other alternatives? Or am I incredibly inept and > > missing a step or botching a procedure? How about Freon TF? :) *Really* great stuff. I miss it a lot. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 00:52:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 01:52:52 -0500 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/7/07, Hex Star wrote: > On 2/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On 2/6/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > well what's a software trap? something that traps data? > > > > Nope. Something that traps program execution. If you dig into the > > Motorola documentation for the 68000 processor, there's a number of > > pages (a whole chapter?) dedicated to how the trap architecture works.... > > ah wow...sounds like the detailed descriptions would be interesting to read > (and the processor is alot more complex then one would think)... The 68000 is a lot more like a PDP-11 minicomputer than it is like microprocessors of the late 1970s (I have some preliminary spec sheets somewhere with a date around 1979). As such, it's is loaded with features (and mis-features ;-) and is complex enough to be useful as an embedded processor (laser printers, intellegent serial cards, routers...), as a single-user computer (Amiga, Atari ST, etc.) and all the way up to multi-user box (Perkin-Elmer workstation, Amiga running Minix, etc.) If you include the 68010, which is 95%+ the same as a 68000 (pin compatible, nearly entirely instruction-set compatible, but with some trap improvements ;-) you'll find it in several multi-user contexts (AT&T 3B1, Sun 1, other UNIX workstation-class machines). It's one of my favorite microprocessors. > where can I > find the documentation on the 68000 processor? thanks! :-) Hmm... I happen to have a 3rd edition "68000 User's Manual" published by Motorola in the early 1980s. I always had it handy when I was banging out Comboard code or Amiga code. If you need it on paper, it might take a bit of asking around or digging on used book sale sites. I happened to run across these links after a quick Google... http://tict.ticalc.org/docs/68kUM.pdf http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/EC000UM.pdf http://www.freescale.com/files/archives/doc/ref_manual/M68000PRM.pdf http://www.freescale.com/files/archives/doc/ref_manual/M68000PRMER.txt http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/M68000UMAD.pdf http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MC68000UM.pdf http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MC68000UMAD.pdf UM == User's Manual PRM == Programmer's Reference Manual AD == addendum Enjoy, -ethan From hexstar at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 01:03:36 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:03:36 -0800 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702062303q521264d9rf535310e19165284@mail.gmail.com> On 2/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 2/7/07, Hex Star wrote: > > On 2/6/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > > On 2/6/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > > well what's a software trap? something that traps data? > > > > > > Nope. Something that traps program execution. If you dig into the > > > Motorola documentation for the 68000 processor, there's a number of > > > pages (a whole chapter?) dedicated to how the trap architecture > works.... > > > > ah wow...sounds like the detailed descriptions would be interesting to > read > > (and the processor is alot more complex then one would think)... > > The 68000 is a lot more like a PDP-11 minicomputer than it is like > microprocessors of the late 1970s (I have some preliminary spec sheets > somewhere with a date around 1979). As such, it's is loaded with > features (and mis-features ;-) and is complex enough to be useful as > an embedded processor (laser printers, intellegent serial cards, > routers...), as a single-user computer (Amiga, Atari ST, etc.) and all > the way up to multi-user box (Perkin-Elmer workstation, Amiga running > Minix, etc.) If you include the 68010, which is 95%+ the same as a > 68000 (pin compatible, nearly entirely instruction-set compatible, but > with some trap improvements ;-) you'll find it in several multi-user > contexts (AT&T 3B1, Sun 1, other UNIX workstation-class machines). > > It's one of my favorite microprocessors. > > > where can I > > find the documentation on the 68000 processor? thanks! :-) > > Hmm... I happen to have a 3rd edition "68000 User's Manual" published > by Motorola in the early 1980s. I always had it handy when I was > banging out Comboard code or Amiga code. If you need it on paper, it > might take a bit of asking around or digging on used book sale sites. > I happened to run across these links after a quick Google... > > http://tict.ticalc.org/docs/68kUM.pdf > http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/EC000UM.pdf > http://www.freescale.com/files/archives/doc/ref_manual/M68000PRM.pdf > http://www.freescale.com/files/archives/doc/ref_manual/M68000PRMER.txt > http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/M68000UMAD.pdf > http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MC68000UM.pdf > http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MC68000UMAD.pdf > > UM == User's Manual > PRM == Programmer's Reference Manual > AD == addendum > > Enjoy, > > -ethan > indeed the 68000 sure sounds very complex for a processor...surprisingly so, thanks for the links that's just what I was looking for (although that sure is neat that you have a real hardcopy...better keep hold of that vintage goodie ;-) :-) ) now one thing I've wondered is...how do processors get to working? I mean all it is is some metal with thin silicon inside...so how do some transistors and diodes get it from some sheet metal to something that can do all this? is it really just a billion little diode switch things which literally act as binary switches (0s and 1s)? always wondered...thanks! :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 01:47:28 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:47:28 -0700 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062303q521264d9rf535310e19165284@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062303q521264d9rf535310e19165284@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C98410.9000605@jetnet.ab.ca> Hex Star wrote: > now one thing I've wondered is...how do processors get to working? I mean > all it is is some metal with thin silicon inside...so how do some > transistors and diodes get it from some sheet metal to something that > can do > all this? is it really just a billion little diode switch things which > literally act as binary switches (0s and 1s)? always wondered...thanks! :-) Just to confuse you they throw in about 68000 transistors instead. A 2650-P-02 is a nice $9 chip from BG Micro, if we did want to stick to a more classic computer designs - ( Signetics 2650 ). > From wizard at voyager.net Wed Feb 7 01:57:14 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:57:14 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1170835034.27276.24.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 17:35 -0700, woodelf wrote: > I am still waiting for my CD's from UK/Europe. > All the ones I want are out of print. . . . > I am still recovering from the Beatles invasion from > this side of the pond. Do you still have a wide selection > of music CD's or have they like the USA only the NEW > fad music in stock? For hard-to-find music, such as 30 year old Steeleye Span, and Deep Purple's Concerto for Group and Orchestra, for which I searched for twenty-five, and nearly twenty years, respectively, I have found success with CD Universe. http://www.cduniverse.com/ Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 7 02:11:11 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:11:11 -0500 Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2007, at 11:48 PM, Richard wrote: >> There's a wire-wrap machine of some sort on Ebay (#290079310287) >> just in >> case someone in Colorado wants to redo their PDP-10 backplane. > > That reminds me of when I was an undergrad and I wire-wrapped > something like 10,000 wires on a display processor. I did a bunch of that too, on a supercomputer project at P.U...it was lots of fun. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wizard at voyager.net Wed Feb 7 02:12:38 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 03:12:38 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45C8AE59.27831.FA5F16B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45C8AE59.27831.FA5F16B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1170835958.27276.28.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 16:35 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's a 2004 study on the subject done by NIST: > > http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwog/StabilityStudy.pdf > > Beyond this, so much out there falls in the area of sold-silver > speaker wire and gold-plated mains receptacles (you know what I > mean). Thanks, Chuck, For those not so much interested in "Sample 1 vs. Sample 2" results, and more interested in brand names, the results of this study are reflected in the evaluations given here: http://www.silverace.com/dottyspotty/issue12.html Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 03:04:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:04:30 -0700 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <1170835034.27276.24.camel@linux.site> References: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <1170835034.27276.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45C9961E.30906@jetnet.ab.ca> Warren Wolfe wrote: > > For hard-to-find music, such as 30 year old Steeleye Span, and Deep > Purple's Concerto for Group and Orchestra, for which I searched for > twenty-five, and nearly twenty years, respectively, I have found success > with CD Universe. > > http://www.cduniverse.com/ > I think I will try it, they take money orders. Sadly most of the older stuff I want does not seem to come from the USA but other music companies outside the USA. From cc at corti-net.de Wed Feb 7 03:24:02 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:24:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <45C98410.9000605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062303q521264d9rf535310e19165284@mail.gmail.com> <45C98410.9000605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, woodelf wrote: > A 2650-P-02 is a nice $9 chip from BG Micro, if we did want to stick > to a more classic computer designs - ( Signetics 2650 ). I have some Synertek 2650-P-01 (date code 7720) that are definitely *not* 2650 CPUs, along with some AMI 1315-P-2 (seems to be some kind of keyboard encoder). They come from some old Courier 270 display terminals. So what's a 2650-P-01 ? Christian From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Feb 7 03:28:25 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:28:25 +0000 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:35:07 MST." <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, woodelf said: > > I am still recovering from the Beatles invasion from > this side of the pond. I tried very hard to be part of the Brit invasion of the US. but it never came off :-( > Do you still have a wide selection > of music CD's or have they like the USA only the NEW > fad music in stock? In my experience _everything_ that has been recorded since about 1917 is available on cd if you go to the right sources. I frequent some very obscure parts of the music spectrum and have managed to buy everything I've looked for. Yesterdays purchaces at a local store: The Atomic Mr Basie "Skinny Grin" Acoustic Ladyland "Live from Austin TX" Richard Thompson John Lee Hooker 3CD box set. None of them the lastest fad... :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 03:37:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:37:34 -0700 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702062024o770c5d45hed39d9ea0738280c@mail.gmail.com> <200702070437.l174bwV2030458@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062052k1bc272b1i4f6f16cbca3f9ceb@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062230y5637a50bw7bc27516f978c0f5@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702062303q521264d9rf535310e19165284@mail.gmail.com> <45C98410.9000605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45C99DDE.2030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, woodelf wrote: > >> A 2650-P-02 is a nice $9 chip from BG Micro, if we did want to stick >> to a more classic computer designs - ( Signetics 2650 ). > > > I have some Synertek 2650-P-01 (date code 7720) that are definitely > *not* 2650 CPUs, along with some AMI 1315-P-2 (seems to be some kind of > keyboard encoder). They come from some old Courier 270 display terminals. > So what's a 2650-P-01 ? Well this is the link I found for 2650-P-01 . Checking BG micro I cound not find anything new other than they are $6.00 each. Data sheet I got from Bitsavers I think under Signetics. > Christian > > . > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 7 08:11:28 2007 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:11:28 -0500 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <200702070817.l178GIgK000587@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601c74ac1$dc1e3820$6500a8c0@barry> For removing labels and their adhesive gum, I use lighter fluid (the kind made for old cigarette lighters) to remove labels. Zippo and Ronson are two major brands. You can buy it at almost any grocery or drug store (it may be behind the counter, ask). It's very effective and doesn't seem to leave a residue or cause long-term plastic damage. I also use it for cleaning old laptops, put some on a paper towel and it works great, it's just a good solvent. [Do not use it on the screen ... I will use Windex on an LCD screen, however. It's harsh and frequent use is definitely not recommended, but very occasionally, it's ok and works very well.] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 08:59:23 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:59:23 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: > In my experience _everything_ that has been recorded since about > 1917 is available on cd if you go to the right sources. Sorry, but you are extremely wrong here. There is a huge amount of music that is only available on LP, 45, 78, or other even old formats. Most early rock and roll, like 1950/60s rockabilly, has not made it past the 45 format, and the same is true for old soul. Lots of live jazz never jumped off the LP. There is a ton of stuff from the 1980s, like dance remixes and B sides, that never made it. To the extreme, there is the whole bootleg market. Lots of this stuff is super obscure, so it may not be a huge loss. There are a few suprises. For example, the entire Beach Boys backcatalog will likely never get completely released on CD. The Beach Boys - one of the biggest moneymakers a record company has seen in 50 years! There are tons of strange versions and demos of their songs that were sold to minor labels that are long gone. Untangling the rights to get them released would probably be more expensive than the return from the relatively very small market that demands them. Yes, there is a market for this weird stuff. Music geeks can be worse completionist collectors than most - they have to have everything. Sort of like how some of us have to have every DEC VT terminal or PDP-8. Anyway, this is the big reason why you can, with looking, still buy a turntable to play your records. The LPs-sound-better crowd is a tiny fraction of what it used to be, now that many of the early CDs have been properly remastered (I dare people on this list NOT to start an analog-is-better audio thread, please). The turntable market is now driven by those people that want or need to play a very obsolete format. CDs are falling into the same situation. Whatever the next audio media turns out to be, there will be vast amounts of material that will not make the jump, and some of this will be significant cultural material. People will demand to be able to play this, so the CD format will continue to be supported for years to come. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 09:09:55 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:09:55 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <45C9EBC3.3010707@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> In my experience _everything_ that has been recorded since about >> 1917 is available on cd if you go to the right sources. > > Sorry, but you are extremely wrong here. There is a huge amount of > music that is only available on LP, 45, 78, or other even old formats. > Most early rock and roll, like 1950/60s rockabilly, has not made it > past the 45 format, and the same is true for old soul. Lots of live > jazz never jumped off the LP. There is a ton of stuff from the 1980s, > like dance remixes and B sides, that never made it. To the extreme, > there is the whole bootleg market. Indeed. I have some recordings of Ignacy Paderewski playing his *own* compositions. Only available on 78. I've made FLACs out of them just in case. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 7 09:12:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:12:33 -0700 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:59:23 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > Sort of like how some of us have to have every DEC VT terminal or > PDP-8. Did someone call my name? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Feb 7 09:25:43 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:25:43 -0500 Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:51:10 EST." Message-ID: <200702071525.l17FPhCl025151@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >On 2/6/07, Hex Star wrote: >> What does a unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? As in, what happened >> to cause it? Thanks! :) > >If you got a bomb, shouldn't there be numbers associated with it? >Those can be extremely useful in debugging these sorts of problems >(yes... even AmigaDOS' Guru Meditation numbers, despite their >reputation). Something in brain is saying "floating point" or "SANE". is it possible the program wants an extension (implemented via a trap) which you don't have loaded? -brad From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 7 09:36:01 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 07:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Feb 7, 7 09:59:23 am" Message-ID: <200702071536.l17Fa1kM030616@floodgap.com> > Anyway, this is the big reason why you can, with looking, still buy a > turntable to play your records. In fact, I just bought my folks a USB turntable (i.e., a turntable with a built-in USB Audio output) so that they could start digitizing their old LP catalogue. I imagine, though, with the way they care for their LPs that they may outlast whatever CD-Rs they make of them. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Adore, v.: To venerate expectantly. -- Ambrose Bierce ---------------------- From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Feb 7 09:39:34 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:39:34 -0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <006a01c74ace$2bf98640$4f04010a@uatempname> Jim Leonard wrote: > And yet, DVD-R has traditionally been recognized as more compatible > with set-top devices. So go figure :-) I think the gist of it was that, given the choice, you should go for DVD+R since it is more likely to be readable when things have degraded slightly. As I say, without knowing more of the details I cannot really comment. As for device compatibility, my experience is that DVD-R works everywhere and DVD+R works in most things. Five to ten years ago you had to worry about making sure that the media was compatible with your drive. These days you would have to work at it to find a drive that would not read/write pretty much all the media. Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 10:04:11 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:04:11 -0800 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <000601c74ac1$dc1e3820$6500a8c0@barry> References: <200702070817.l178GIgK000587@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <000601c74ac1$dc1e3820$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <45C987FB.18462.12F8170D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2007 at 9:11, Barry Watzman wrote: > [Do not use it on the screen ... I will use Windex on an LCD > screen, however. It's harsh and frequent use is definitely not recommended, > but very occasionally, it's ok and works very well.] Probably any moderate weight petroleum fraction from kerosene to mineral spirits will work for labels. In Goo-Gone, I suspect it's the naptha that's doing the bulk of the work in removing labels. WalMart paint thinner at $1.99 per gallon should be about as effective as anything. You definitely want to steer clear of strong solvents, such as toluol, MEK, acetone, etc. I may catch some flack for this, but for cleaning LCD and CRT surfaces, I've found that "Shower Shine", a spray-on cleaner and anti- soap-scum agent for bathroom use works very well and doesn't appear to bother plastics or metals. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 10:09:55 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:09:55 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45C9EBC3.3010707@gmail.com> References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca>, , <45C9EBC3.3010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C98953.27891.12FD55EB@cclist.sydex.com> > In my experience _everything_ that has been recorded since about > 1917 is available on cd if you go to the right sources. There are boutique operations that, for a medium-sized pile of legal tender, offer rare recordings on CD-R, but I've never used them-- their prices are more than I can stomach. On a related note, and definitely vintage, there's a radio (both FM and internet) program that digs around through the Thomas Edison collection of discs and cylinders that's quite interesting: http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/TE Cheers, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Feb 7 10:17:10 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:17:10 -0500 Subject: Synertek 2650-P-01 Message-ID: Christian Corti writes: > I have some Synertek 2650-P-01 (date code 7720) that > are definitely *not* 2650 CPUs, along with some > AMI 1315-P-2 (seems to be some kind of keyboard > encoder). They come from some old Courier 270 > display terminals. So what's a 2650-P-01 ? Synertek made character generator chips (really mask ROM) and LSI video scan generators that commonly appeared in 70's devices. Doesn't help narrow down what was in that terminal, but the point is they did a lot of stuff for that market (including CPU's in the first microprocessor terminals). Didn't somebody from that era at Synertek talk at VCF East last year? Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 11:21:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:21:48 -0800 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <006a01c74ace$2bf98640$4f04010a@uatempname> References: <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org>, <006a01c74ace$2bf98640$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45C99A2C.27597.133F26AD@cclist.sydex.com> ?'m finishing a job that I found interesting in that it illustrates a problem with media preservation that hadn't occurred to me. We were sent about 100 8" diskettes for conversion which I didn't think was unusual at all until I started to read the material from them. These are oral history transcriptions--with "shall remain sealed for 15 (up to 20; the period varies) years before publication" notices on them. I checked with the sender and yes, indeed, these were created (transcribed from audio cassette tape) and stored in sealed boxes for the entire time. Fortunately, there was only one unrecoverable error in the entire lot- -and it was in an unallocated area. But I thought it was interesting in that it points up the issue that it's sometimes *not* possible to recopy things to newer media every few years, regardless of one's desire to preserve the content. Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 11:44:01 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:44:01 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702071536.l17Fa1kM030616@floodgap.com> References: <200702071536.l17Fa1kM030616@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Please, if you know a source of good stuff like this let us know. My wife's got a ton of LP's that haven't come out on CD... and they never will. Kind of be nice to play them instead of just collecting them. Bill On 2/7/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Anyway, this is the big reason why you can, with looking, still buy a > > turntable to play your records. > > In fact, I just bought my folks a USB turntable (i.e., a turntable with a > built-in USB Audio output) so that they could start digitizing their old > LP catalogue. I imagine, though, with the way they care for their LPs that > they may outlast whatever CD-Rs they make of them. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Adore, v.: To venerate expectantly. -- Ambrose Bierce > ---------------------- > From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 11:53:49 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:53:49 -0600 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <45C987FB.18462.12F8170D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702070817.l178GIgK000587@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <000601c74ac1$dc1e3820$6500a8c0@barry> <45C987FB.18462.12F8170D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CA122D.5050800@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Feb 2007 at 9:11, Barry Watzman wrote: > >> [Do not use it on the screen ... I will use Windex on an LCD >> screen, however. It's harsh and frequent use is definitely not recommended, >> but very occasionally, it's ok and works very well.] > > Probably any moderate weight petroleum fraction from kerosene to > mineral spirits will work for labels. In Goo-Gone, I suspect it's > the naptha that's doing the bulk of the work in removing labels. > WalMart paint thinner at $1.99 per gallon should be about as > effective as anything. You definitely want to steer clear of strong > solvents, such as toluol, MEK, acetone, etc. Remember that I'm not removing labels from just any old surface, I'm removing them from floppy disk jackets. Won't generic paint thinner warp/dissolve/erode/ruin the jacket? Even if it won't, what's the best way to apply it so that it won't run onto the media? Soak a rag and start rubbing? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 11:56:08 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:56:08 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <009d01c74a75$48c33450$0b01a8c0@game> References: <002d01c74a19$50be8710$4f04010a@uatempname> <45C94D6D.2000402@oldskool.org> <007601c74a6d$3cc43210$0b01a8c0@game> <45C9554A.6000701@oldskool.org> <009d01c74a75$48c33450$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45CA12B8.7010104@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > Genica GN-800 > > http://www.genica.com/Consumer%20Electronics/KaluaMP3-DVD.htm > > Maybe it was in 2000 Late 2000, actually (December). Thanks for clarifying. I was about to call "Shenanigans!" because MP3 support back then was nearly nonexistent. Further research shows that yes, your player can play MP3s, but support for VBR is iffy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 11:57:58 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:57:58 -0600 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <1170835958.27276.28.camel@linux.site> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3AA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45C8AE59.27831.FA5F16B@cclist.sydex.com> <1170835958.27276.28.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45CA1326.9010106@oldskool.org> Warren Wolfe wrote: >> Here's a 2004 study on the subject done by NIST: >> >> http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwog/StabilityStudy.pdf >> >> Beyond this, so much out there falls in the area of sold-silver >> speaker wire and gold-plated mains receptacles (you know what I >> mean). > > For those not so much interested in "Sample 1 vs. Sample 2" results, > and more interested in brand names, the results of this study are > reflected in the evaluations given here: > > http://www.silverace.com/dottyspotty/issue12.html I wasn't too happy with both those reports. They both mention that their sample was too small to be conclusive. The only damning thing they found was that exposure to direct sunlight is bad -- duh. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 12:27:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:27:07 -0800 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <45CA122D.5050800@oldskool.org> References: <200702070817.l178GIgK000587@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45C987FB.18462.12F8170D@cclist.sydex.com>, <45CA122D.5050800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45C9A97B.26161.137AF337@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2007 at 11:53, Jim Leonard wrote: > Remember that I'm not removing labels from just any old surface, I'm > removing them from floppy disk jackets. Won't generic paint thinner > warp/dissolve/erode/ruin the jacket? > > Even if it won't, what's the best way to apply it so that it won't run > onto the media? Soak a rag and start rubbing? Paint (not lacquer) thinner is pretty benign stuff--safe for most plastics. When I remove labels, I first examine the label. Some manufacturer's labels are shiny coated stock--if that's the case, I scuff the surface of the label with a copper scouring pad (nonferrous; doesn't "shed" like Scotchbrite or sandpaper). This allows whatever you use to soak through the label. I brush the paint thinner on with an acid brush only allowing it to wet the label. After a 10-30 minute soak, the label should come right off. Wipe off any excess thinner with a soft rag; eventually any remaining solvent will evaporate. This works for me for the "sticky" adhesive labels, but manufacturer's labels might be a different story. Maybe Isopropanol or methanol might be worth a try on those. Cheers, Chuck Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 7 12:36:04 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:36:04 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <003e01c74a4f$c9666030$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: On 7/2/07 00:34, "arcarlini at iee.org" wrote: > Mine are right here but you've saved me the bother of photographing > an example (the bit that pulls out was called the "antlers" > apparently). That's today's thing that I've learnt :) > I would have thought that seven years ago the RRD40 was already > a distant memory. (Its predecessor BTW was the RRD50 which was > a tabletop unit top-loading CD-ROM that was _slower_ than 1x!) I've seen an RRD50 somewhere, possibly Bletchley Park! QBUS attachment IIRC, same as the winchester type connector used on the RQDXE. > In a school in 1990 I would guess that this is just the > standard "flip-top" lid caddy that many early CD-ROM units I thought that at first but Andrew said some of the caddy came back out again? I'm still marginally kicking myself for driving ebay whilst, er, 'refreshed' and buying a CD caddy for the Commodore CDTV's 1 speed CDROM, it's identical to every other one you've seen ever.....but it's black. That's ukp7 I won't get back :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wizard at voyager.net Wed Feb 7 12:48:54 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:48:54 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 09:59 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > Sorry, but you are extremely wrong here. There is a huge amount of > music that is only available on LP, 45, 78, or other even old formats. Quite true, unfortunately. > CDs are falling into the same situation. Whatever the next audio media > turns out to be, there will be vast amounts of material that will not > make the jump, and some of this will be significant cultural material. > People will demand to be able to play this, so the CD format will > continue to be supported for years to come. Maybe... I'm not sure we can look at it as another jump like that from LPs to CDs. The major difference is that the jump to CDs was TWO jumps at once: a change in medium, and a change to digital storage versus analogue. That last is HIGHLY significant. Previously, there was no consumer "conversion" possible -- one could not, for example, load one's wax cylinder onto an LP - essentially nobody owned LP production equipment. But, we are in the digital world, now. Moving one's music collection from CD to "the next big thing" will more closely resemble the currently on-going discussion about making backups than the immense gulf that exists between LP and CD. I carry most of my music collection around on a tiny computer with earplugs and a 40 Gigabyte hard disk. I got it there with just a computer with a CD drive, a USB cable, and software. I predict all moves after CD will be of this nature. We WILL lose much of the music of our past, because it will not make the jump over the "Digital Divide" in the first place. I have digitized a few LPs, and may have the only digital copy of several albums. But, once music makes the leap to CD, it is firmly in the digital world. Mass production CDs have a MUCH longer lifespan than user-recorded ones, and they should all (maybe not all COPIES, but all ISSUES) make it to the future just fine, WHATEVER medium we use then. Digitizing old analogue recordings SHOULD be as important to music buffs as archiving programs is to us. THAT is where the "carnage" will take place. Old analogue tape vaults will be the abattoirs, and it is nearly certain that much music will, sadly, never make it back out of them. It would be wonderful if they would at least digitize everything they have, so that, should they be ABLE to work out the licensing at a later date, they have something to release. Failing that, historians of the future will have access to the music, even if it never is a commercial entity. I can't imagine that creating a digital master of the original tapes would be that expensive, and the storage would be significantly cheaper. Leave the re-mixing, and fixing, etc. for some later time, but MOVE the information onto digital media as quickly as possible. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From shumaker at att.net Wed Feb 7 12:53:08 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:53:08 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: <200702071536.l17Fa1kM030616@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070207104916.019f2970@att.net> The unit that seems most commonly available is branded "Ion" and comes with a USB link built in.. specs for it sound like a fairly good "consumer" grade turntable. There is also a device available that takes a turntable preamp signal and converts it to digital audio on a USB link. Thus allowing those of us with audiophile grade units to continue using them.... steve shumaker At 09:44 AM 2/7/2007, you wrote: >Please, if you know a source of good stuff like this let us know. > >My wife's got a ton of LP's that haven't come out on CD... and they never >will. >Kind of be nice to play them instead of just collecting them. > >Bill > >On 2/7/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> > Anyway, this is the big reason why you can, with looking, still buy a >> > turntable to play your records. >> >>In fact, I just bought my folks a USB turntable (i.e., a turntable with a >>built-in USB Audio output) so that they could start digitizing their old >>LP catalogue. I imagine, though, with the way they care for their LPs that >>they may outlast whatever CD-Rs they make of them. >> >>-- >>--------------------------------- personal: >>http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * >>ckaiser at floodgap.com >>-- Adore, v.: To venerate expectantly. -- Ambrose Bierce >>---------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 7 12:41:00 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 12:41:00 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45C7ADAB.80300@msm.umr.edu> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> <45C7ADAB.80300@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070207123859.08a6a450@mail> At 04:20 PM 2/5/2007, jim wrote: >rule 3 which you have touched on, but not made a >rule is to actually test the data, preferably on another >device than the one you backed it up on. "Unless you've recovered the system from the backups, you only think you have a backup." - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:09:59 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:09:59 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site> References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> <1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > Maybe... I'm not sure we can look at it as another jump like that > from LPs to CDs. The major difference is that the jump to CDs was TWO > jumps at once: a change in medium, and a change to digital storage > versus analogue. That last is HIGHLY significant. Previously, there > was no consumer "conversion" possible -- one could not, for example, > load one's wax cylinder onto an LP - essentially nobody owned LP > production equipment. The fatal flaw here is that between LP and CD was tape. Almost everyone had a tape deck that could record. The analog to digital transition is not significant at all, really. Once the audio is in those two RCA connectors or phono plugs, it does not really matter if it is coming or going to digital or analog source. Most music geeks and preservationists could and can work with whatever is given to them - the tape recorder made it possible years ago. To the non-music geeks, it does not matter. The old format just gets replaced by the new, simply by purchasing the new. Pretty much all of this is mainstream, anyway, so the record companies do the conversions. The LPs then end up at the garage sale or church bazaar. > I > got it there with just a computer with a CD drive, a USB cable, and > software. I predict all moves after CD will be of this nature. Yes, you are right - there may be no media in the future. CDs might be the last. This is not the point of my argument, however. My point was that with well established media formats for music (cylinder, 78, 45/33, CD, etc.), there will always be support in some form. It may be small, it may be hard to find, it may be expensive - but it is there. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 7 13:12:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:12:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <45C987FB.18462.12F8170D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> I haven't followed this thread, and am pressed for time. But if you want to remove labels, or any other gooey residue from plastics, metals...there's a product you can get from say Home Depot and probably alot of hardware stores (and auto parts probably too) called Afta. It's safe for most plastics and painted surfaces. You may want to try it on an inconspicuous area though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 7 13:08:29 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:08:29 -0800 Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CA23AD.7090307@msm.umr.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 6, 2007, at 11:48 PM, Richard wrote: > > I did a bunch of that too, on a supercomputer project at P.U...it > was lots of fun. :) > > -Dave Our company, Irvine Computer Corp used a lot of wire wrap, and had two machines. We started out making mostly disk controllers for SMD in WW, but also did cpu's and some other parts of our system. Our cpu was an enhanced Microdata 1600, and ran with a 20mhz clock module, divided down to a 10mhz micro machine rate. There were a lot of naysayers who said that the clock rate was too high, but we never had any major problems with the clock for that reason. The 1600 design originally used a poly phase clocking (not my term but what I recall it being described as) which used an offset derived pair of clocks (of by 90 degrees) that were 10mhz. Then the two clocks were run all over the place, and different things happened at different times depending on what had to be done, with each micro instruction being completed every 200 ns. The implementation we had was clocked every 100ns and all logic ran off the same clock. where the 1600 was a 4 tick cpu, we had a single tick. any other observations on WW as far as clocking? I know that the more expensive stuff ran mini coax around the backplane to get much better signals, but we just used regular old 32 or whatever guage WW wires, sometimes 26 guage for high current. We also had a large amount of decoupleing built into our basic WW design boards that was put in before any wires were wrapped, so there was very little but IC pins with wire wrap signals going to them. The power and ground grid was all done in the PC carrier board, and we ran 5 and ground everywhere that way. I know some logic probably had other voltages that made that harder to do as far as power. jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 13:41:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:41:23 -0800 Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: <45CA23AD.7090307@msm.umr.edu> References: , , <45CA23AD.7090307@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45C9BAE3.32657.13BEF12E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2007 at 11:08, jim wrote: > any other observations on WW as far as clocking? I know that > the more expensive stuff ran mini coax around the backplane > to get much better signals, but we just used regular old 32 or > whatever guage WW wires, sometimes 26 guage for high > current. How about ECL? Moto used to advertise that the 10,000 series was "wire-wrappable", but the WW samples I've seen have lots of twisted pairs on them. Looks like a real pain to do. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 13:41:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 12:41:19 -0700 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070207123859.08a6a450@mail> References: <45C79E00.3030209@bitsavers.org> <45C7ADAB.80300@msm.umr.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20070207123859.08a6a450@mail> Message-ID: <45CA2B5F.9070309@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: > > "Unless you've recovered the system from the backups, > you only think you have a backup." Rule #1 ... the only copy of back up software is *NOT* on the backup tape*1 *1 ( or what ever media you are using ) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 7 13:46:40 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:46:40 -0800 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) Message-ID: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> > The analog to digital transition is not significant at all, really. > Once the audio is in those two RCA connectors or phono plugs, it does > not really matter if it is coming or going to digital or analog > source. Absolutely false. The reason early CDs sounded so bad was they often started with the Master mixdown tapes from the LP, which had a lot of bad juju done to them due to the limitations of the vinyl medium. That's why so much work has been put into remastering from original multitracks, when possible. The problem is people EXPECT the music to sound like what they heard on vinyl. Getting the remix to sound 'right' is tough to do. > Pretty much all of > this is mainstream, anyway, so the record companies do the > conversions. This won't happen, as people have said, for stuff out of the mainstream. When it's done, it is often from vinyl, since the original tapes have been lost. .. getting this back to preservation, at least we work (mostly) with digital saturation recording. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 13:47:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:47:40 -0800 Subject: Handy copyright guide Message-ID: <45C9BC5C.28265.13C4B2AA@cclist.sydex.com> Questions of copyright have come up here from time to time with much discussion. I discovered a chart that might help to clear a few things up about US copyright: http://www.bromsun.com/practices/copyright-portfolio- development/flowchart.htm Cheers, Chuck From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Feb 7 12:52:25 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:52:25 +0000 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:59:23 EST." Message-ID: <200702071852.SAA03356@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, William Donzelli said: > > In my experience _everything_ that has been recorded since about > > 1917 is available on cd if you go to the right sources. > > Sorry, but you are extremely wrong here. There is a huge amount of > music that is only available on LP, 45, 78, or other even old formats. > Most early rock and roll, like 1950/60s rockabilly, has not made it > past the 45 format, and the same is true for old soul. Lots of live > jazz never jumped off the LP. There is a ton of stuff from the 1980s, > like dance remixes and B sides, that never made it. To the extreme, OK so I exagerated a bit! One last OT comment then I promise to stick to computers :-) (I'll probably have some d*mn-fool questions when I get the Micro- 11/73 out of the rack and see about making some changes...) As for old rock'n'roll, rockabilly etc. loads of it is being released on cd at the moment, a chap called Mark Lamarr plays a lot on his BBC radio show* every week, but I do admit even he has to resort to 45s at times! Obscure soul tracks are also very popular atm with new re-releases every week...feeding the revived (British) Northern Soul scene. Most of these seem to be on UK or European labels though. Still got 2 turntables. (Neither have 78, alas, and one only does 33rpm!) Just to upset people: we used to use 78s for target practice, shellac ones shattered nicely, vinyl ones just gave you a boring hole... :-) * You can listen to it on the BBC website. BBC Radio 2, Mark Lamarr's Alternative Sixties, New show every Monday - plenty of obscure Rock'n'Roll/Rockabilly. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 14:26:05 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:26:05 -0500 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> References: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > The analog to digital transition is not significant at all, really. > > Once the audio is in those two RCA connectors or phono plugs, it does > > not really matter if it is coming or going to digital or analog > > source. > > Absolutely false. OK, maybe I oversimplified things... Yes, I know getting the signal from the original multitracks is the best way to do it, however, these days there is some very sophisticated processing that can happen once the signal is on the wires. Obviously there are some things you just can not get back, but in general, you can make a lot of things sound very good. This is not like software - a small degradation in the signal quality is not going to trash the whole thing. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 14:33:50 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:33:50 -0700 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: References: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, I know getting the signal from the original multitracks is the > best way to do it, however, these days there is some very > sophisticated processing that can happen once the signal is on the > wires. Obviously there are some things you just can not get back, but > in general, you can make a lot of things sound very good. This is not > like software - a small degradation in the signal quality is not going > to trash the whole thing. *$#@!* You have not read the fine print on the CD format. (Too low a sampling rate ) From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Feb 7 14:55:52 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:55:52 -0500 Subject: IBM 3420 and 3803 on ebay Message-ID: <7074DA8E-18DE-4254-8E8D-07D46C0179CE@colourfull.com> There are a couple listed from the same seller. Look in good condition. # 170078807906 # 170078863271 Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:02:42 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:02:42 -0500 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e0702071302n2aac2826ya037aa2b9125e55b@mail.gmail.com> On 07/02/07, woodelf wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > *$#@!* You have not read the fine print on the CD format. > (Too low a sampling rate ) I don't think the sampling rate of CD's is too low. Early A/D converters may have cut out a bit too early, but for the last decade or so, with oversampling A/Ds the 3dB cutoff has crept very close to Nyquist. And noone here (western industrialized culture)- except a very select few - will have any significant perception of sounds exceeding 18kHz. Either you'll be in an age group (above X years) where you hearing naturally degrades or (below X years) where you will have had sufficient exposure to damage the high-frequency hair cells due to environmental noise or good old Rock'n'Roll. A few years ago, I asked a sound engineer (classical music, Martha de Francisco at McGill) about the early CDs and why so many people thought it was too "dry" or "clinical": her claim was that the noise floor of the medium is too low. In effect - just as it says on some AAD CDs these days - the CD will expose flaws in the master tape. (The particular problem is/was ambience: on modern recordings more microphones are added, far away from the performers; this adds late reverb that with LPs would fall below the noise level) I don't think any LP has frequency content above 20kHz that is not near-gaussian noise created by physical imperfections in the LP material. Sorry this is way off-topic and is almost guaranteed to incite an audiophile flamewar... :-) Joe. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 15:26:08 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:26:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 07, 2007 11:46:40 AM Message-ID: <200702072126.l17LQ8KI005132@onyx.spiritone.com> > The reason early CDs sounded so bad was they often started with the > Master mixdown tapes from the LP, which had a lot of bad juju done > to them due to the limitations of the vinyl medium. > > That's why so much work has been put into remastering from original > multitracks, when possible. > > The problem is people EXPECT the music to sound like what they heard > on vinyl. Getting the remix to sound 'right' is tough to do. What can be really interesting is playing a CD and an LP done at the same time. In one example I have, I can hear things on the LP (parts of the song), that simply aren't on the CD. OTOH, production qualities were so low in the 80's for LP's that the CD's vs LP's of the same album will often sound better. These days I listen almost exclusively to vinyl. While this leaves out certain artists (unless I break down and buy the CD), there is still a significant amount of new music released on LP's, and unlike the 80's, they are typically on high quality vinyl. > > Pretty much all of > > this is mainstream, anyway, so the record companies do the > > conversions. > > This won't happen, as people have said, for stuff out of the mainstream. > When it's done, it is often from vinyl, since the original tapes have > been lost. Some companies do excellent transfers, take a look at the Bear Family CD's. Of course you pay a premium for their quality. Others are horrible. I'm still looking for a Near Mint copy of an Album (actually any copy) on vinyl that has one of my favorite songs on it. While I have the CD, it's obvious that it was made from a beat up LP that wasn't cleaned prior to copying. > .. getting this back to preservation, at least we work (mostly) with > digital saturation recording. Personally, right now I'm working with 78's. Getting those to sound right can be a very interesting experience do to all of the different equalization curves that were used. Once you start to get it right, it is surprising how good they can sound. Though there is still quite a bit of surface noise on most. Removing the surface noise, along with the pops and clicks, without distorting the audio can be interesting, and definitely takes practice. High-end computers along with specialized software have been used in this area for a long enough period that it's even more or less on-topic. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:33:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > *$#@!* ???? -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 7 15:44:03 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:44:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence Message-ID: <200702072144.l17Li3iP052247@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Graham wr ote: > On 7/2/07 00:34, "arcarlini at iee.org" > wrote: > **>> snip <<** > > > In a school in 1990 I would guess that this is > just the > > standard "flip-top" lid caddy that many early > CD-ROM units > > I thought that at first but Andrew said some of th e > caddy came back out > again? No, I never said that. The person who replied to my email said that. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 16:06:07 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:06:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0702071302n2aac2826ya037aa2b9125e55b@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Feb 07, 2007 04:02:42 PM Message-ID: <200702072206.l17M678x006453@onyx.spiritone.com> > I don't think the sampling rate of CD's is too low. Early A/D > converters may have cut out a bit too early, but for the last decade > or so, with oversampling A/Ds the 3dB cutoff has crept very close to > Nyquist. For a CD at 16-bit 44.1 kHz there is a difference, for a SA-CD or DVD-A at 24-bit 96 kHz basically no one will here a difference. I for one would love to have the Mercury Living Presense and RCA Living Stereo classical releases they did on SA-CD, as it's almost impossible to find good LP's at an affordable price. At the moment I own one dual format CD/SA-CD, but don't even have an SA-CD player. Oh, well, I normally listen to the LP of that album anyway. > I don't think any LP has frequency content above 20kHz that is not > near-gaussian noise created by physical imperfections in the LP > material. I'm honestly not sure where it falls with LP's or 45's. With a 78, it depends on the publisher, or even when it was done, but anything over 10-12kHz is noise on a 78. > Sorry this is way off-topic and is almost guaranteed to incite an > audiophile flamewar... :-) No doubt :^) Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 7 16:06:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20070207140520.B77472@shell.lmi.net> So, . . . is there hope of eventually seeing the old classics on CD? (such as "Nash Rambler", "Purple People Eater", "Witch Doctor") From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 7 16:19:09 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:19:09 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702072144.l17Li3iP052247@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/2/07 21:44, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: >> caddy came back out >> again? > > No, I never said that. > > The person who replied to my email said that. *rereads* Oh aye, perhaps you meant the RRD42 then :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 7 16:30:06 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:30:06 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <45CA52EE.2080207@bitsavers.org> > So, . . . > is there hope of eventually seeing the old classics on CD? > (such as "Nash Rambler", "Purple People Eater", "Witch Doctor") The Playmates "Beep, Beep" Sheb Wooley "Purple People Eater" David Seville "Witch Doctor" These are all charted singles, and are easy to find, though probably not on a single collection. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 7 16:44:19 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:44:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CA52EE.2080207@bitsavers.org> References: <45CA52EE.2080207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > > So, . . . > > is there hope of eventually seeing the old classics on CD? > > (such as "Nash Rambler", "Purple People Eater", "Witch Doctor") > > The Playmates "Beep, Beep" > Sheb Wooley "Purple People Eater" > David Seville "Witch Doctor" > > These are all charted singles, and are easy to find, though > probably not on a single collection. I've found all of those on Dr Demento CD sets. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 7 17:26:43 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:26:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <200702072326.l17NQhwW056889@keith.ezwind.net> --- woodelf wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > I thought CD's were invented in 1982? > > I remember it easily as thats the year my > > younger brother was born. > > I am still waiting for my CD's from UK/Europe. > All the ones I want are out of print. > > > Or was that the year they first came to the > > UK/Europe?? > > I am still recovering from the Beatles invasion fr om > this side of the pond. Do you still have a wide > selection > of music CD's or have they like the USA only the N EW > fad music in stock? > Depends where you go. I buy all my CD's from HMV (His Masters Voice for those who don't know what it stands for) or from online (usually Amazon). HMV is often pricey, whereas smaller backstreet shops have them cheaper. HMV has a huge range of choice here in Cambridge, UK, but I can't say what the choice is like in erm... less popular cities! HMV sells, as the name suggests, mainly music so they have to have a wide variety. I must admit I am fed up of all the covers/ remixs of old songs that keep being done by new (younger) artists. Girls Aloud (although beautiful) are a prime example - they won a UK talent search thing like American Idol and pretty much 95% of there stuff (certainly all there singles that are released) are covers of older music. Their latest release (for charity (Red Nose day)) is a cover of Run DMC's "Walk This Way". Of course, you need to be old enough to remember the originals though :) Anyway, going well OT.... Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. I am looking to buy a laptop off eBay , for reasons I won't explain as it will take too long. Does anyone have any recommendations of makes/models I should look for, or avoid? Replies direct to me please (or Jay will shoot me!) :) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Feb 7 17:41:11 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:41:11 -0800 Subject: wire wrap machine Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3BA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: On 7 Feb 2007 at 11:08, jim wrote: > any other observations on WW as far as clocking? I know that > the more expensive stuff ran mini coax around the backplane > to get much better signals, but we just used regular old 32 or > whatever guage WW wires, sometimes 26 guage for high > current. How about ECL? Moto used to advertise that the 10,000 series was "wire-wrappable", but the WW samples I've seen have lots of twisted pairs on them. Looks like a real pain to do. Cheers, Chuck ---------------------------------------------- The Cyber 170 series from CDC used twisted pair wire-wrap. I still have a bunch of it. The wires were color coded for length. The early back planes were hand wired using a machine like Al described. Later machines were more automated and wired from a reel. Proper nightmare to troubleshoot. You had to feel a wire through the mat since all wires were the same color. The logic was standard MECL 10K. The normal and complement outputs made it a natural to use as a differential transmitter. So some of the signals were single-ended, twisted with a ground wire. The longer signals and I/O lines used the twisted pair as a differential line - no ground wire. If I remember correctly, the standard single ended wire was 100 ohm impedance terminated to 220 ohm resistors to -2.2v or 550 ohm resistors to -5.5v. The differential lines used two resistors at each end. Real pain doesn't do justice to working with these back planes. The wires were 30 gauge single strand and brittle. When removing one, you had to carefully trim off the bare wire end before pulling the wire out of the mat. If you didn't, the ends would break off and fall down the vertical back plane until they disappeared. Then you got to spend an hour trying to find them. We used to call them "tingles". If you didn't get them all out and applied power, they became "twinkles" as they shorted out and vaporized. Which did wonders for the logic and gave you a couple more hours of overtime trying to get the machine going again. Of course this always happened late on a Saturday night, especially if you had a date or tickets. Putting ECOs in became a total complete nightmare. We calculated the size of work by number of wires to change. If you were good, you could do 8-10 wires an hour. 4 years of twisted pair wire wrap experience is probably the best explanation I can give for volunteering to move off main frames and on to disk drives. Billy From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 7 17:44:15 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:44:15 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <45CA644F.9020808@bitsavers.org> Their latest release (for charity (Red Nose day)) is a cover of Run DMC's "Walk This Way". Of course, you need to be old enough to remember the originals though :) -- ahem.. "Walk This Way" isn't a Run DMC song.. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Feb 7 17:50:44 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:50:44 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3BB@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> * David Griffith wrote: On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > > So, . . . > > is there hope of eventually seeing the old classics on CD? > > (such as "Nash Rambler", "Purple People Eater", "Witch Doctor") > > The Playmates "Beep, Beep" > Sheb Wooley "Purple People Eater" > David Seville "Witch Doctor" > > These are all charted singles, and are easy to find, though > probably not on a single collection. I've found all of those on Dr Demento CD sets. -- David Griffith -------------------------------------------- Ahh. You took the words out of my mouth. Dr Demento even goes further back to "Please Mr Custer", "Surfin Bird" or "Transfusion". Nervous Norvous - what a great name for a classic computer noid afraid to power up his thousand dollar because of aging capacitors. (Have to stay OT.) Billy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 17:54:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:54:32 -0700 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <200702072206.l17M678x006453@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702072206.l17M678x006453@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45CA66B8.60502@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > For a CD at 16-bit 44.1 kHz there is a difference, for a SA-CD or DVD-A at > 24-bit 96 kHz basically no one will here a difference. Well I got a DVD-A player, and *THREE* DVD-A disks. I can't get 24 96Khz out because you need a 5 channel system. I have *stereo* system for listening to the music, but the software thinks we all need 5 channels, and it defaults back to CD quality. > I for one would love > to have the Mercury Living Presense and RCA Living Stereo classical releases > they did on SA-CD, as it's almost impossible to find good LP's at an > affordable price. At the moment I own one dual format CD/SA-CD, but don't > even have an SA-CD player. Oh, well, I normally listen to the LP of that > album anyway. Now does anybody give real specs on why a DVD/CD player ranges from $29 to $2,900 and all the box sayes is *improved video*? For some information about how people that like music, ended up as the minority can be found here. http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 18:03:39 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:03:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702071852.SAA03356@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Feb 07, 2007 06:52:25 PM Message-ID: <200702080003.l1803esw009628@onyx.spiritone.com> > As for old rock'n'roll, rockabilly etc. loads of it is being released > on cd at the moment, a chap called Mark Lamarr plays a lot on his > BBC radio show* every week, but I do admit even he has to resort to > 45s at times! Obscure soul tracks are also very popular atm with > new re-releases every week...feeding the revived (British) Northern > Soul scene. > Most of these seem to be on UK or European labels though. Over this past summer we were listening to a radio station that mostly played 60's and 70's rock. Once an hour for some contest they were playing a 45. It was great, as I heard some stuff I'd never heard before, and some I'd not heard in years. I'm not sure if the station is still on the air, when they quit playing the 45's we quit listening, as they only played a handful of songs. How is it that a station that covers about 20 years, only plays about 4-8 hours of music! I'm sick of the radio and how few songs they actually play. > Still got 2 turntables. (Neither have 78, alas, and one only does > 33rpm!) Lightweight! #1 16/33/45/78 #2 33/45 #3 33/45 <- Rega P3 :^) #4 33/45/78 Of course I'm only using #3 for 33's and #4 for 78's. BTW, I don't think I even want to admit how many Laserdisc players I've got (including to myself). Need to take the time, transfer a few discs to DVD, and see about getting rid of some spare players to free up room. > Just to upset people: we used to use 78s for target practice, shellac > ones shattered nicely, vinyl ones just gave you a boring hole... :-) Grrr! I hope you only used common 78's! Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 7 18:17:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:17:17 -0800 Subject: [ot] broadcast radio Message-ID: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> How is it that a station that covers about 20 years, only plays about 4-8 hours of music! I'm sick of the radio and how few songs they actually play. -- Terrestrial broadcast radio (and television) is in a death spiral. Corporations want to move to the subscription model, and are putting the least resources they can into traditional media. Most stations are automated with feeds from satellites. They are programmed by consultants looking for least common denominator programming for the desired audience demographic by the advertisers. Mean while, most people under 30 have abandoned radio for iPods or webcasts. There are a few eclectic non-comms left. I'm involved with KFJC in the SF Bay area, and William is working on a program for WFMU. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 18:25:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:25:20 -0800 Subject: ISO: A good explanation of EBCDIC control seuqnces Message-ID: <45C9FD70.10335.14C2E3C4@cclist.sydex.com> Lately, I've been plowing through a bunch of EBCDIC-encoded WP documents. I don't have a problem finding EBCDIC charts with mnemonics, but I'd like some more detail on control character operation. For example, what's the difference between IT PT and HT? What sequence does CSP introduce and what are its variations? I've done some web searching but can't come up with anything definitive. Any pointers would be welcome. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 18:32:37 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:32:37 -0800 Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> References: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45C9FF25.19764.14C98E85@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2007 at 16:17, Al Kossow wrote: > Mean while, most people under 30 have abandoned radio for iPods or > webcasts. Some folks over 30 also. :) The box that I use for NAT and mail also runs RealPlayer and is hooked to an FM transmitter. I wake up to BBC World Service in the morning.... Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Feb 7 18:34:11 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:34:11 -0500 Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:17:17 PST." <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200702080034.l180YBOt022113@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: >How is it that a station that covers about 20 years, only >plays about 4-8 hours of music! I'm sick of the radio and how few songs >they actually play. check out radioparadise... it may not be your cup of tea but I think his playlists are exceptional (and commercial free). www.radioparadise.com >There are a few eclectic non-comms left. I'm involved with KFJC in >the SF Bay area, and William is working on a program for WFMU. maybe internet streams will save the genre. -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 7 17:52:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:52:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What does the unimplemented trap bomb error message mean? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702062303q521264d9rf535310e19165284@mail.gmail.com> from "Hex Star" at Feb 6, 7 11:03:36 pm Message-ID: > now one thing I've wondered is...how do processors get to working? I mean > all it is is some metal with thin silicon inside...so how do some > transistors and diodes get it from some sheet metal to something that can do > all this? is it really just a billion little diode switch things which > literally act as binary switches (0s and 1s)? always wondered...thanks! :-) The answer to that question could fill several books. You are actually asking 3 questions at once, I think 1) How do you make electronic components (transistors, etc) on a silicon chip? 2) How do you interconnect these components to make the standard, basic, logic circuits -- AND gates, OR gates, flip-flops, etc? 3) How do you make a processor from said basic logic circuits? The first thing to realiase is that there is nothing 'magic' about a processor. It is just a (fairly) complex logic circuit. There;s nothing much else in there other than gates and flip-flops, and it's possible to understnad how a processor works at that level. Most classic processors cna be divided into 2 sections (in fact in some models of PDP11 the processor was 2 PCBs, and the split was into the 2 main sections). The first is the 'Data path'. This contains the bits that the programmer is normally aware of. The registers, the ALU, the swtiching circuits that link the registers (and external memory to the ALU), etc. The second, and IMHO, mroe intereting, part is the control section. This is resposible for decoding the instructions read from memory, setting up the data path to do the approropatie things, seqeuncing operations (like reading a word from memory, incrementing the program counter, etc) I've not found a good book on processor design at this level (there are many terrible ones!) I learnt it the hard way be doing battle with the schematics of a commercial processor and actually working out what each gate did. TOok a few months of bedtime reading, but it was a great feeling at the end. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 7 18:12:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 00:12:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: <45C9BAE3.32657.13BEF12E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 7, 7 11:41:23 am Message-ID: > How about ECL? Moto used to advertise that the 10,000 series was > "wire-wrappable", but the WW samples I've seen have lots of twisted > pairs on them. Looks like a real pain to do. I've done that, it's not that bad... You start by making the twisted pair wire (well, you can buy it, but it's expensive nad hard to get in small quantities). Put 2 spools of wire-wrap wire (differnt colours!) on a rod clamped in the vice, put the ends of the wire in the chuck of a hand drill, walk across the workshop and start cranking. You want about 3 twists paer inch for 100 ohm impedance (which is pretty standard). Then strip the ends and wrap them. Run the pair across the PCB, cut off, strip, wrap. If possible use differential signals, if not, ground the other wire of the twisted pair. I wrapped my own backplane for Unibus peripherals, and I actually believed what it said in the PDP11 buas handbook and used twiset pair for all the 'criticla' signals (MSYN, SSYN, SACK, etc). I then saw a real DEC backplane and found they didn't bother... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 7 17:40:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:40:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702070309.l1739piw015678@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Feb 6, 7 07:09:51 pm Message-ID: > Can't say the same for *some* players I've owned (thinks of Magnavox crap > in wastebasket about three months later just after the warranty expired). IIRC Magnavox are essentially Philips. In the UK, Philips CD players were knwon for developing dry joiuts. A complete re-solder would get them going again and then they'd essentially go for ever... It's a pity about the dry joint problem. The swinging-arm pickup positioner (essentially like a moving coil meter movement) was a lot simpler than the 2-stage servo system (course positioneing using a motor and leadscrew, fine positioning usinf a 'moving coil movemnt' on the objective lense, and has many fewer parts to wear out. So it should be ver y reliable... -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 7 18:36:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:36:34 -0700 Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: <45C9FF25.19764.14C98E85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> <45C9FF25.19764.14C98E85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CA7092.9030408@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Some folks over 30 also. :) The box that I use for NAT and mail also > runs RealPlayer and is hooked to an FM transmitter. I wake up to > BBC World Service in the morning.... That don't work for me -- dial up modem. :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 18:42:16 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Feb 07, 2007 01:48:54 PM Message-ID: <200702080042.l180gGlv010720@onyx.spiritone.com> > Digitizing old analogue recordings SHOULD be as important to music > buffs as archiving programs is to us. THAT is where the "carnage" will > take place. Digitizing 78's is important to me, they are fragile, and degrade every time you play them. With careful work, and a lot of effort my digital copies of 78's sound better than playing the 78 itself on my Stereo. This is in part due to the lack of a proper pre-amp for 78's on my part. At the same time, it makes no real sense to digitize 33's or 45's at this point as the vinyl will outlast the CD-R's I'd put them on, and the CD-R's would be much lower quality. Last I looked it's impossible to make your own SA-CD or DVD-A disks (though I'm now seeing some stuff on DVD-A). > Old analogue tape vaults will be the abattoirs, and it is > nearly certain that much music will, sadly, never make it back out of > them. It would be wonderful if they would at least digitize everything > they have, so that, should they be ABLE to work out the licensing at a > later date, they have something to release. Failing that, historians of > the future will have access to the music, even if it never is a > commercial entity. I can't imagine that creating a digital master of > the original tapes would be that expensive, and the storage would be > significantly cheaper. Leave the re-mixing, and fixing, etc. for some > later time, but MOVE the information onto digital media as quickly as > possible. Do you have any idea how much time, money, and skill it takes to read those old masters? Try reading up on it sometime. Digitization isn't always the answer. And yes, something should be done to preserve them. Last year I read a couple articles on remastering the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presense Classical Music libaries to SA-CD, and it made for some very interesting reading. BTW, there are libraries out there actively working to preserve the music. In fact the one that I'm associated with is looking into the possibility of dedicating space to this. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 18:48:40 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:48:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: from "Bill Pechter" at Feb 07, 2007 12:44:01 PM Message-ID: <200702080048.l180megp010959@onyx.spiritone.com> So spend the money on a nice turntable, as Cameron points out, if you take good care of the LP's, they'll outlast the CD-R's. Plus they'll sound better and you won't waste all that time transferring them. The only reason I see to transfer vinyl is if you want to play it in a CD player in your car, or put it on your iPod. On the low end, take a look at a Music Hall turntable, or for a bit more check out Rega. Trust me, a good turntable is well worth the money, and they really aren't that hard to find. Vinyl sales are increasing while CD sales are going down. Zane > Please, if you know a source of good stuff like this let us know. > > My wife's got a ton of LP's that haven't come out on CD... and they never > will. > Kind of be nice to play them instead of just collecting them. > > Bill > > On 2/7/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > Anyway, this is the big reason why you can, with looking, still buy a > > > turntable to play your records. > > > > In fact, I just bought my folks a USB turntable (i.e., a turntable with a > > built-in USB Audio output) so that they could start digitizing their old > > LP catalogue. I imagine, though, with the way they care for their LPs that > > they may outlast whatever CD-Rs they make of them. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 18:52:52 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:52:52 -0600 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> <1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45CA7464.8030309@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: > The analog to digital transition is not significant at all, really. I highly disagree. It means that archival copies can be made where integrity is 100% known. With tape, there's no real way (other than listening with golden ears, or maybe using a scope) to determine if your archive is bad. If I'm misunderstanding you, please explain. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 18:57:20 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:57:20 -0600 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0702071302n2aac2826ya037aa2b9125e55b@mail.gmail.com> References: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0702071302n2aac2826ya037aa2b9125e55b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CA7570.2070509@oldskool.org> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 07/02/07, woodelf wrote: >> William Donzelli wrote: >> *$#@!* You have not read the fine print on the CD format. >> (Too low a sampling rate ) > > I don't think the sampling rate of CD's is too low. Exactly, the sampling rate is fine. Now, the amplitude... that is indeed not enough. There is an audible difference between 16-bit and 24-bit recordings in the quiet parts. Thankfully, DVD-Audio and SACD have both addressed that. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 19:04:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:04:06 -0600 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702080042.l180gGlv010720@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702080042.l180gGlv010720@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45CA7706.5060706@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > it makes no real sense to digitize 33's or 45's at this point as the vinyl > will outlast the CD-R's I'd put them on, and the CD-R's would be much lower > quality. Last I looked it's impossible to make your own SA-CD or DVD-A > disks (though I'm now seeing some stuff on DVD-A). You are misinformed on both counts :-) A run-of-the-mill CD can equal what's on the LP as long as there aren't complex soft dynamics (ie. stuff that falls under -96dB, the limit of 16-bit data on CDs. If you have lots of quiet classical music, I would agree with you that there would be loss... but if your LPs are mostly rock'n'roll or similar dynamics, nothing would be lost at all. Secondly, it is most definitely possible to create your own SACD and DVD-Audio discs, although the software is expensive. A much cheaper alternative, and practically free, is to create a DVD *Video* with just audio playing. The content is still 48/24 or 96/24, just like DVD-Audio, and with a 24-bit soundcard (under $100 these days) you can truly make archival dumps of your LPs to a digital format (48KHz 24-bit exceeds what LPs are capable of reproducing). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 19:05:20 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:05:20 -0500 Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> References: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > There are a few eclectic non-comms left. I'm involved with KFJC in > the SF Bay area, and William is working on a program for WFMU. Another request... I am still looking for someone with a working, reliable 70s era minicomputer with some music software to come in an play some tunes in the studioin Jersey City, NJ. A PDP-8/e with a tape reader or Teletype would be ideal. Ideally I would like to do the performance live (it would be a Saturday mid morning show), but I would probably settle for doing a set earlier and taping it for broadcast later. Also, if someone has music software for the PDP-8/S, I could use that, and drag the old beast in myself. Remember, however, that the 8/S was very much slower than the rest, so using straight PDP-8 music software would result in a bunch of dirges for whales. I have no set time for this, so no pressure right now. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 19:08:15 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:08:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: <200702080034.l180YBOt022113@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Feb 07, 2007 07:34:11 PM Message-ID: <200702080108.l1818F6q011415@onyx.spiritone.com> > Al Kossow wrote: > >How is it that a station that covers about 20 years, only > >plays about 4-8 hours of music! I'm sick of the radio and how few songs > >they actually play. Actually it was me, and not Al that said that. > check out radioparadise... it may not be your cup of tea but I think > his playlists are exceptional (and commercial free). > > www.radioparadise.com I'm afraid most of those groups on todays playlist I've never even heard of! I've tried a couple of the "internet radio" stations. I just can't stomach them. The quality is typically pretty low, and prone to network glitches. I actually subscribed (free) to "Wolfgangs Vault" but have found it to problematic to use :^( BTW, on that playlist, the one modern group I do know who they are, is Death Cab for Cutie, I've picked up their last two albums on vinyl. :^) > >There are a few eclectic non-comms left. I'm involved with KFJC in > >the SF Bay area, and William is working on a program for WFMU. > > maybe internet streams will save the genre. I could see that happening. How long before the FCC tries to sell of the AM and FM spectrums to some corporation for Cell phones or some such nonsense? BTW, Al has some good points, it was quite obvious that the last 30's/40's/50's oldy station I was listening to was a satalite feed. Even the country station I listen to that has local DJ's, also has a satalite feed for late night. As someone else mentioned, it's not just the under 30's crowd moving to the iPod. I've preferred iTunes to the radio for years, and finally got an iPod at Christmas. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 7 19:16:17 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:16:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: <45C9FF25.19764.14C98E85@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 7, 7 04:32:37 pm" Message-ID: <200702080116.l181GHen032340@floodgap.com> > > Mean while, most people under 30 have abandoned radio for iPods or > > webcasts. > > Some folks over 30 also. :) The box that I use for NAT and mail also > runs RealPlayer and is hooked to an FM transmitter. I wake up to > BBC World Service in the morning.... I routinely listen to "real radio" stations that are simulcast over the 'net. There seems to be an amazing shield that prevents reliable RF from getting in or out of this apartment, so radio stations I get fine in the car 20 feet from the front door are static inside the apartment. Hence streaming audio. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Some days you're the bug, and some days you're the windshield. ------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 7 19:17:58 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:17:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CA644F.9020808@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Feb 7, 7 03:44:15 pm" Message-ID: <200702080117.l181HwOW031598@floodgap.com> > > Their latest release (for > > charity (Red Nose day)) is a cover of Run DMC's > > "Walk This Way". > > Of course, you need to be old enough to > > remember the originals though :) > ahem.. "Walk This Way" isn't a Run DMC song.. Quite right. Hint: the original band appears in the video for Walk This Way and even sings the chorus. In fact, the video brought this particular band back from near oblivion and they still tour currently. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I [still] adore my Commodore 64" ------------------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 7 19:19:41 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:19:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702080048.l180megp010959@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Feb 7, 7 04:48:40 pm" Message-ID: <200702080119.l181JfE3031622@floodgap.com> > > In fact, I just bought my folks a USB turntable (i.e., a turntable with a > > built-in USB Audio output) so that they could start digitizing their old > Please, if you know a source of good stuff like this let us know. This was a 30-second search on Amazon (one of the iTTUSB devices). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You're never too old to become younger. -- Mae West ------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 19:28:47 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:28:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CA7706.5060706@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 07, 2007 07:04:06 PM Message-ID: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > it makes no real sense to digitize 33's or 45's at this point as the vinyl > > will outlast the CD-R's I'd put them on, and the CD-R's would be much lower > > quality. Last I looked it's impossible to make your own SA-CD or DVD-A > > disks (though I'm now seeing some stuff on DVD-A). > > You are misinformed on both counts :-) A run-of-the-mill CD can equal > what's on the LP as long as there aren't complex soft dynamics (ie. > stuff that falls under -96dB, the limit of 16-bit data on CDs. If you > have lots of quiet classical music, I would agree with you that there > would be loss... but if your LPs are mostly rock'n'roll or similar > dynamics, nothing would be lost at all. Well, as it happens, a significant part of my LP's are other than Rock, and would most definitely be effected. Even Rock LP's can be effected. > Secondly, it is most definitely possible to create your own SACD and > DVD-Audio discs, although the software is expensive. OK, so you can master them, can you burn them? I've seen the software for mastering them, I've not seen a hardware solution to burn them, at least not for SA-CD. It looks like the software I now have discWelder Bronze can do DVD-A disks, but I've not played with it to see if it really works. As luck has it, I have a DVD player that can do DVD-A, and I don't have anything to play SA-CD. >A much cheaper > alternative, and practically free, is to create a DVD *Video* with just > audio playing. The content is still 48/24 or 96/24, just like > DVD-Audio, They detail just this in the latest issue of audioXpress, in fact I just picked up a copy for the article on this, but haven't had a chance to read it. >and with a 24-bit soundcard (under $100 these days) you can > truly make archival dumps of your LPs to a digital format (48KHz 24-bit > exceeds what LPs are capable of reproducing). If you're going to take the time to do this, I would hope you're going to use something a bit better than a cheap soundcard to capture the audio. All I'm doing right now is 78's and I purchased a Presonus Firebox 24-bit 96kHz in order to copy them (it's replacing a card from Echo Audio). Right now the weakest point in my chain for 78's is the crappy pre-amp I'm using, followed by the cartridge and stylus. I still fail to see a reason to transfer most of my LP's to a digital format. As I have a very good turntable, the LP's will last longer than any copies I make, and in order to do a good job at transferring all of them, I'd have to invest 1000's of hours. I will transfer a few of my favorites so that I can put them on my new iPod. Zane From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Feb 7 19:50:27 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:50:27 -0500 Subject: some prime CV software on ebay? Message-ID: <200702080150.l181oRHD019102@mwave.heeltoe.com> If anyone is interested in prime/cv software, check out ebay 190080793732 I know the seller, but don't know anything about the software. It's not far from me however, so I could go check it out if anyone is seriously interested and has questions. -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 19:52:58 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:52:58 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CA7464.8030309@oldskool.org> References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local> <1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site> <45CA7464.8030309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > If I'm misunderstanding you, please explain. I never said tape is a good audio achive media - just a way to record audio decently at low cost, before CD-Rs came to be common. I did request that this whole thread not turn into an analog vs digital/LP vs CD discussion...and it has. Maybe I am an idiot for thinking it would not. Anyway, I am tuning out. Someone talk about mainframes. -- Will From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 7 19:58:52 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:58:52 -0800 Subject: wire wrap machine In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3BA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3BA@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45CA83DC.7060609@msm.umr.edu> Billy Pettit wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 7 Feb 2007 at 11:08, jim wrote: > > > >How about ECL? Moto used to advertise that the 10,000 series was >"wire-wrappable", but the WW samples I've seen have lots of twisted >pairs on them. Looks like a real pain to do. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > I have seen the ECL stuff too, but there was both twisted pair as billy mentions below as well as some with coax. >---------------------------------------------- > >The Cyber 170 series from CDC used twisted pair wire-wrap. I still have a >bunch of it. The wires were color coded for length. The early back planes >were hand wired using a machine like Al described. Later machines were more >automated and wired from a reel. > We never had any reliable wire cutter or trimmer. cutting caused your tingles right from the gitgo, and even the NoNics I gave you didn't reliably strip the wire of insulation. We had a self stripping bit that we used, but it required a specific wire, specific insulation, and size for every bit, and cost several hundred 1980's dollars, and was very exotically machined. but you could just insert the unstripped wire, and it stripped and spit out the insulation. but as it wore, it developed a tendency to break the wire or weaken it right at the bottom of the wrap, or didn't stip, so we went back to pre stripped. > Proper nightmare to troubleshoot. You had >to feel a wire through the mat since all wires were the same color. > > > >If you didn't get them all out and applied power, they became "twinkles" as >they shorted out and vaporized. Which did wonders for the logic and gave >you a couple more hours of overtime trying to get the machine going again. >Of course this always happened late on a Saturday night, especially if you >had a date or tickets. > > > the other issue you had to confront was how many levels of wrap you allowed per pin. if you had a good routing program, you could do 2 levels everywhere there weren't ECO's, or by hand running a net. However if you put in an eco sometimes engineering practices would allow you to add a level if there were room on the pin, and later when you accessed it for another change, the wrap you wanted would be the middle wrap, and you'd have to redo two wires. >Putting ECOs in became a total complete nightmare. We calculated the size >of work by number of wires to change. If you were good, you could do 8-10 >wires an hour. > >4 years of twisted pair wire wrap experience is probably the best >explanation I can give for volunteering to move off main frames and on to >disk drives. > > > Again we were lucky to get off w/o twisted pair for the most part. Actually the only place we had to pay attention to it was on the SMD and Trident Radial cable boards where the RF came in and out, and make sure we got clean clocks and stripped data streams to the CRC chip we used. The lack of a good ECC chip in TTL was one reason we never supported ESMD since the bit rates were too fast for whatever CRC we used (I'll have to go look it up sometime) and it was too much redesign to use any alternative. We used our own format which was compatable with only our controller, which is one of the reasons I don't get too excited about recovering any similar bit oriented direct device's data. I guess if you had a reliable way to read all the bits, you could decipher it, but without a compatable or capable disk controller, you won't recover the data from a disk pack or drive. Sorry to digress off the wire wrap subject here. >Billy > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 7 20:40:09 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:40:09 -0600 Subject: [ot] broadcast radio In-Reply-To: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> References: <45CA6C0D.9040408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070207203857.0556a880@mail> At 06:17 PM 2/7/2007, Al Kossow wrote: >How is it that a station that covers about 20 years, only >plays about 4-8 hours of music! I'm sick of the radio and how few songs >they actually play. Yes, and for your average automated oldies station, they have the 1,500 to 2,500 songs, period, and the list doesn't change. It all runs on a little rack-mount PC. - John From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 7 20:46:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:46:54 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty Message-ID: Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty back together again? Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other Visual Technology terminals offered b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing posts in the keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't appear damaged and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, but obviously the case is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay seller accused me of trying to rip them off by claiming damage and then made a big stink about me giving them negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated pillow style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened it. They also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like utter bullshit. I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the pieces of the case back together to get something stable enough to have the electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power it on and man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) I suppose it would be prohibitively expensive to try and recast a new plastic enclosure for it... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Feb 7 21:00:27 2007 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:00:27 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2007, at 9:46 PM, Richard wrote: > I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the pieces > of the case back together to get something stable enough to have the > electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power it on and > man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) I was working on similar problem with an SGI Crimson. SGI plastic is very brittle. Unfortunately I have been unable to find a good glue or epoxy that is both strong and binds to the brittle plastics. Can anyone offer any suggestions for both RIchard and myself? Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 7 20:55:30 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:55:30 -0800 Subject: Very old Cdrom mastering Message-ID: <45CA9122.9070604@msm.umr.edu> There is a Young Minds unit on Ebay right now, which was similar to the first unit I saw at sunsoft in about 1995 or so. This unit would have been from 13,000 to 50,000, depending on when you got hold of it. There was a kodak writer unit attached to this to do the writing. This particular unit seems to have a wide scsi under the connector marked "writer" so would most likely not be the same one as the one I encountered. Sunsoft could master the data and drive this unit via the SCSI port, and this in turn would write the cd. Overall the process took probably over 3 hours, but produced a cd which at the time was something that was pretty new, at least to me. I think there is was a Kodak unit recently, but I cannot find it now. they were packaged in a unit almost as big as this converted desktop. Jim 190046817654 From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 7 21:06:22 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:06:22 -0600 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45CA93AE.5020901@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Well, as it happens, a significant part of my LP's are other than Rock, and > would most definitely be effected. Even Rock LP's can be effected. > >> Secondly, it is most definitely possible to create your own SACD and >> DVD-Audio discs, although the software is expensive. Yes, but only on the fade-out at the end :-) > OK, so you can master them, can you burn them? I've seen the software for > mastering them, I've not seen a hardware solution to burn them, at least not > for SA-CD. SACD is nothing more than DTS 5.1/6.1/7.1 data in the CD audio tracks, so yes on both. > It looks like the software I now have discWelder Bronze can do DVD-A disks, > but I've not played with it to see if it really works. As luck has it, I > have a DVD player that can do DVD-A, and I don't have anything to play > SA-CD. If your CD player has a toslink digital out, and your receiver is DTS, you may find that it will recognize the data and play it anyway. >> and with a 24-bit soundcard (under $100 these days) you can >> truly make archival dumps of your LPs to a digital format (48KHz 24-bit >> exceeds what LPs are capable of reproducing). > > If you're going to take the time to do this, I would hope you're going to > use something a bit better than a cheap soundcard to capture the audio. All You need to redefine "cheap soundcard". You need to look into the state of sound cards *today*, not 2 years ago. There are $100 cards that can record 96KHz, 24-bit audio with a signal-to-noise ratio under -108dB... > I'm doing right now is 78's and I purchased a Presonus Firebox 24-bit 96kHz > in order to copy them (it's replacing a card from Echo Audio). Right now > the weakest point in my chain for 78's is the crappy pre-amp I'm using, > followed by the cartridge and stylus. So I don't see your point about the cheap sound card :-) BTW, *excellent* choice on the Firebox, it's good hardware. > I still fail to see a reason to transfer most of my LP's to a digital > format. As I have a very good turntable, the LP's will last longer than any > copies I make, and in order to do a good job at transferring all of them, > I'd have to invest 1000's of hours. I will transfer a few of my favorites > so that I can put them on my new iPod. If you don't want to transfer them, that's completely up to you. Just keep in mind that, if you accidentally drop one, it's gone... whereas digital media can be kept in multiple generations of backups without loss. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Feb 7 21:12:05 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:12:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Richard wrote: > Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty back > together again? > > Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > Visual Technology terminals offered > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) > This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing posts in the > keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't appear damaged > and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, but obviously the case > is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay seller accused me of trying to > rip them off by claiming damage and then made a big stink about me > giving them negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated > pillow style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened it. They > also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like utter > bullshit. > > I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the pieces > of the case back together to get something stable enough to have the > electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power it on and > man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) Been there, done that. You might be able to find some of my old posts in the classiccmp archives regarding different chemicals for plastic repair/welding. I'd suggest you try something like Proweld from Ambroid. http://www.ambroid.com/Ambroid.html Its primarily methylene chloride (dichloromethane) and seems to work great for ABS plastics used in older cases and parts. The newer ABS+PC (polycarbonate) blends won't bond together very well though. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Feb 7 21:17:29 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:17:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Robert Borsuk wrote: > On Feb 7, 2007, at 9:46 PM, Richard wrote: > >> I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the pieces of >> the case back together to get something stable enough to have the >> electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power it on and >> man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) > > I was working on similar problem with an SGI Crimson. SGI plastic is > very brittle. Unfortunately I have been unable to find a good glue or > epoxy that is both strong and binds to the brittle plastics. Can anyone > offer any suggestions for both RIchard and myself? See my reply to Richard's post. Oddly enough, I used to the stuff to repair cracks in the brown skins of some of my SGI 4D PowerSeries machines, and I'd expect the Crimson to use similar plastic parts. If they switched to a PC+ABS blend though, it won't work very well. I *do* still need to find one of the plastic skins and plastic skirt for one side of one of my 4D series machines. The skin was badly crushed at the vent holes and really isn't repairable and the narrow skirt part was just missing. -Toth From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Feb 7 21:20:19 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:20:19 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger under the suction cup and pull, and it should come off. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:47 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Humpty Dumpty > > Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty > back together again? > > Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > Visual Technology terminals offered > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) > > al-1.jpg> > al-2.jpg> > al-3.jpg> > al-4.jpg> > al-5.jpg> > al-6.jpg> > al-7.jpg> > al-8.jpg> > al-9.jpg> > > This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing posts > in the keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't > appear damaged and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, > but obviously the case is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay > seller accused me of trying to rip them off by claiming > damage and then made a big stink about me giving them > negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated pillow > style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened it. They > also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like > utter bullshit. > > I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the > pieces of the case back together to get something stable > enough to have the electronics working again. (I've never > attempted to power it on and man, was I pissed when I opened > up this box!) > > I suppose it would be prohibitively expensive to try and > recast a new plastic enclosure for it... > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 7 21:32:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:32:46 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <45CA295E.22077.156E7B58@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2007 at 22:00, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I was working on similar problem with an SGI Crimson. SGI plastic is > very brittle. Unfortunately I have been unable to find a good glue or > epoxy that is both strong and binds to the brittle plastics. Can > anyone offer any suggestions for both RIchard and myself? Have you tried methylene chloride as a solvent cement? Old plastic can be a problem because the stuff that keeps it flexible tends to evaporate over time. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 7 21:36:33 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:36:33 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty References: Message-ID: <011c01c74b32$54c67a10$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... > Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > Visual Technology terminals offered > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) I used to have a Visual terminal on my desk, complete with Tek 4010 emulation. I thought it was rather unremarkable - I didn't like it. I had no idea they were sought after. Bummer yours got ship(ping)wrecked. Who was the carrier? I had my first HP 264x term arrive like that... very busted up. If we're not talking about retro appeal or collectability - but just a 'use it for work day in and day out' terminal, my favorite was the wyse-30, amber. Jay From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Feb 7 21:40:49 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:40:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <98722.25656.qm@web82610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Julian Wolfe wrote: > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your > finger under the suction > cup and pull, and it should come off. Careful! The tube can accumulate a nasty charge even if not powered up recently. Keep your fingers away from the anode button! --Bill From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 21:45:06 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:45:06 -0500 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <45CA7570.2070509@oldskool.org> References: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> <45CA37AE.2040800@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0702071302n2aac2826ya037aa2b9125e55b@mail.gmail.com> <45CA7570.2070509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0702071945sd21c7fif85f8ab057409edf@mail.gmail.com> On 07/02/07, Jim Leonard wrote: > Exactly, the sampling rate is fine. > > Now, the amplitude... that is indeed not enough. There is an audible > difference between 16-bit and 24-bit recordings in the quiet parts. > Thankfully, DVD-Audio and SACD have both addressed that. I agree. To bring the topic back to computers, it's that silly facination with powers-of-2 wordsizes: 16 bits only give 96dB dynamic range; most music that is interesting (and IMHO this _requires_ dynamics :-) needs at least 120dB (each extra bit gives you about 6dB). And unfortunately, nonlinear A/D or D/A's are difficult to build and calibrate past 10 bits or so - no uLaw/ALaw which would otherwise help. See e.g. Louis D. Fielder, "Dynamic-Range Issues in the Modern Digital Environment" JAES Vol. 43, No. 5, 1995 May. Joe. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Feb 7 21:50:38 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:50:38 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <00bf01c74b34$4bbba600$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Sorry, forgot to add, you should pull it off AS FAST AS POSSIBLE to pull your arm away from the charge that may arc from it. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:20 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Humpty Dumpty > > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger > under the suction cup and pull, and it should come off. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:47 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Humpty Dumpty > > > > Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty back > > together again? > > > > Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > > Visual Technology terminals offered > > > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) > > > > > al-1.jpg> > > > al-2.jpg> > > > al-3.jpg> > > > al-4.jpg> > > > al-5.jpg> > > > al-6.jpg> > > > al-7.jpg> > > > al-8.jpg> > > > al-9.jpg> > > > > This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing posts in the > > keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't appear damaged > > and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, but > obviously the case > > is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay seller accused me of trying to > > rip them off by claiming damage and then made a big stink about me > > giving them negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated > > pillow style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened it. They > > also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like utter > > bullshit. > > > > I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of > the pieces > > of the case back together to get something stable enough to > have the > > electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power > it on and > > man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) > > > > I suppose it would be prohibitively expensive to try and > recast a new > > plastic enclosure for it... > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > > download > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > > > From allain at panix.com Wed Feb 7 22:17:42 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:17:42 -0500 Subject: Computer movies part VI References: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca><200702070928.JAA01651@citadel.metropolis.local><1170874135.27276.119.camel@linux.site><45CA7464.8030309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001f01c74b38$14c2a1e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Will said: > Someone talk about mainframes. I just got a cheap DVD the old 1983 "Brainstorm" and besides being a good "wires everywhere" type of movie, it is a great way to recall old tech. There are suitcase terminals, test equipment everywhere, oh yeah, and I think I spotted both the consoles (only, sorry to say) from an IBM 1620 and maybe a 360 towards the center of the lab. Will go back over it in more detail in the not so far future. Hope that helps, John A. "Technology for Tomorrow" From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 7 22:45:31 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:45:31 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CA93AE.5020901@oldskool.org> References: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CA93AE.5020901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 9:06 PM -0600 2/7/07, Jim Leonard wrote: >>If you're going to take the time to do this, I would hope you're going to >>use something a bit better than a cheap soundcard to capture the audio. All > >You need to redefine "cheap soundcard". You need to look into the >state of sound cards *today*, not 2 years ago. There are $100 cards >that can record 96KHz, 24-bit audio with a signal-to-noise ratio >under -108dB... When I think of "cheap soundcards" I think of Soundblasters, which while they can be quite nice are generally considered a bad choice for this sort of thing. $100 cards are typically more targeted at playback than they are at recording. >>I'm doing right now is 78's and I purchased a Presonus Firebox 24-bit 96kHz >>in order to copy them (it's replacing a card from Echo Audio). Right now >>the weakest point in my chain for 78's is the crappy pre-amp I'm using, >>followed by the cartridge and stylus. > >So I don't see your point about the cheap sound card :-) BTW, >*excellent* choice on the Firebox, it's good hardware. Granted at this point, just about any cheap soundcard might not be any worse than the pre-amp I'm using, but I assume you can guess what one of my next upgrades will be. I'm really happy with the FireBox, and more importantly, unlike my old card for audio work, it supports modern hardware. I'd been planning on just getting a M-Audio Firewire 410, but didn't totally like the looks of it, so had held off. Then I found out about the Presonus Firebox, and it rocks! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 23:32:11 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 00:32:11 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger under the suction > cup and pull, and it should come off. You should not need to put your finger under the cup to pull it off (a little suprise might be under there anyway). Most HV anode connections on CRTs can be removed by squeezing the outside of the cup, while giving it a bit of a lifting twist, if that makes sense. Once it comes loose, it can be moved over and touched to something to ground it. I have never been shocked doing it this way, although a couple of times I did get a good spark. A very clean CRT can hold a charge for well over a day. I have been bitten other ways with CRT high voltage, and while not fun experience, the pain is temporary. I am still alive. In fact, I have never actually heard of anyone dying from a CRT zap. The worst case generally involves the muscle spasm that whacks knuckles against the undersides of PC boards. Now THAT hurts. -- Will From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Feb 7 22:51:03 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 02:51:03 -0200 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > alot of hardware stores (and auto parts probably too) > called Afta. It's safe for most plastics and painted It is called "nafta", is a powerful remover and lighter fluid. An american brand is "Ronson" if I'm not mistaken. Just ask the fluid used in Zippos :) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Feb 8 00:23:03 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:23:03 -0800 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive Message-ID: <49b2483f7c6d6c0e61ff780b6ddeb00b@valleyimplants.com> > If I am remembering correctly, older systems can't format during a > copy, but later ones can. What I seem to think was the single-disk > copying procedure is to eject the System disk (Flower-E or Flower-1?), > you want -E for copying. the "1" thing ( 1 if I remember right) was the "force eject" for the first floppy drive at startup if normal methods (drag-to-trash or eject command) failed. > It's all quite tedious, but possible. If there's anyway you can > borrow a second 400K floppy, you will find this somewhat trivial. You > can also copy 400K disks in more modern Macs, so don't think you are > limited to using a 128K Mac to copy single-sided MFS disks. I can't > say for certain how new the gear can be, but at the very least, I'd be > surprised if a Mac SE or SE/30 running System 6 couldn't still do it. You want to use either a Mac II or earlier, or a SE/30 or IIcx/IIci with an external 400 or 800k floppy. The SuperDrive (original SuperDrive, not the "new" CD/DVD one) [present on all Macs since the IIx, many IIs and some SEs (SE FDHD)] has the smaller head size and your older machine won't read it properly. WRT the swapping- can't recall at this point if changing the disk cache/RAM cache (depending on your system version) setting makes any difference, but the default gives you lots of wrist exercise even on a 4MB Mac SE/800k. From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Wed Feb 7 19:30:26 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:30:26 -0600 Subject: HP 2112A In-Reply-To: <200702051645.l15GjqKO012473@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: > >> The three ROMs all have 12992 on them, the first in light pencil (not >> visible in the picture below)... > > Is it 12992-something? The "something" will indicate what ROM it is. > "12992 B" is written on the top of the chip. From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 8 03:05:26 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 04:05:26 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1170925526.11108.68.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 17:28 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I still fail to see a reason to transfer most of my LP's to a digital > format. As I have a very good turntable, the LP's will last longer than any > copies I make, and in order to do a good job at transferring all of them, > I'd have to invest 1000's of hours. I will transfer a few of my favorites > so that I can put them on my new iPod. Okay, try THIS on for size... Every time you play a vinyl LP, you degrade it. Granted, not as MUCH as if it were a 78, but a finite amount. Every time you play a CD you made from the LP, that is one less play of the LP, and an avoidance of the inevitable degradation. It's the theory lots of German audiophiles used in the 1970s. They would have EXCELLENT tape recorders, and lots of tapes. But, since LPs cost a great deal in Germany, most audiophiles only had a few. And, the ONLY time they were played was when they were playing into a tape recorder. People LISTENED to music from the tapes, saving the precious LPs. I used that system myself, especially for the CD-4 Quadradiscs; their carrier frequencies were MUCH more susceptible to damage than a regular LP. When I got them, I'd play them once to remove any "flash" from the grooves, and then play them into my Teac 3340S. I also used the Ball (the glass jar canning people) product that coated the grooves about two or three molecules thick, and lubricated them. My LPs still sound new, except for the few I was foolish enough to lend. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 8 03:48:49 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:48:49 -0000 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702080048.l180megp010959@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c74b66$572d6a50$4f04010a@uatempname> Zane H. Healy wrote: > On the low end, take a look at a Music Hall turntable, or for a bit > more check out Rega. Trust me, a good turntable is well worth the > money, and they really aren't that hard to find. Vinyl sales are > increasing while CD sales are going down. There is a turntable out there that is completely non-contact, it uses a laser based pickup (actually five lasers I think). It will set you back a tidy sum though. Antonio From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Feb 8 06:45:28 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:45:28 -0500 Subject: Anyone have real tech info on HP54201D (Digital Storage Scope) Message-ID: <200702081244.l18CihNk017314@hosting.monisys.ca> Sorry - I know this is a bit OT, but I don't know many places to ask... Does anyone here have technical information or experience with the HP54201D Digitizing Storage Oscilloscope. I'm specifically looking for information/help with the analog triggering circuits. I've obtained the HP "service manual" for this scope, and it is absolutely useless, no schematics, not technical descriptions... Basically, it says "Plug the scope into your HP scope tester, press GO and replace any boards which are listed as FAILED". I've had this machine for a few months. It's always had problems with the analog triggering. When I first got it, channel-1 would not trigger at all, but channel-2 and external triggering worked most of the time. Channel-1 would fail the trigger Hysteresis & Level calibration, Channel-2 would usually pass. I've been using it with Channel-2 triggering, however within the past week, I've noticed that it triggers continuously after power on (Doesn't matter what trigger level etc. you program), but after a few minutes it would settle down and work as before. Thinking it might be a calibration issue, I re-ran self-calibration, and surprisingly Channel-1 passed, after which I could use both channels with full triggering, however both of them exhibited continuous triggering after power-on, and the time taken to settle down has been increasing. This morning, it's been on for over three hours and it's still triggering continously, even with no signal inputs (leads disconnected). Triggering calibrations fail consistantly for both channels. So I think it has finally gone bye-bye. When it works, this scope is awesome - I would really like to get it working again - any information/help would be greatly apprecaited. Regards,. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 08:06:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:06:35 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:36:33 -0600. <011c01c74b32$54c67a10$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <011c01c74b32$54c67a10$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > I used to have a Visual terminal on my desk, complete with Tek 4010 > emulation. I thought it was rather unremarkable - I didn't like it. > > I had no idea they were sought after. As near as I can tell, there are like 3 people who care about terminals: myself, Paul Shuford (who is the only source of online information about many kinds of terminals) and Paul Williams (who runs and maintains vt100.net). Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. Terminals that have 3D graphics builtin are even scarcer than that. The Visual 500 therefore is of interest to me because it is older and has graphics. (Not all Visual terminals have graphics, but the 500 does.) > Who was the carrier? I had my first HP 264x term arrive like that... very > busted up. IIRC, it was UPS, but it wasn't the fault of the carrier but whoever packed it. There was *nothing* in this box but a bunch of smashed parts. No packing. No peanuts. No bubble wrap. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 08:07:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:07:39 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:20:19 -0600. <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: In article <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, "Julian Wolfe" writes: > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger under the suction > cup and pull, and it should come off. In order to do what? Honestly, I really don't understand the point of this single sentence response. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 8 09:48:05 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:48:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It is called "nafta", is a powerful remover and lighter fluid. A more conventional spelling - probably more useful to anyone looking for it online - is "naphtha". At least assuming that's the substance you are referring to; the only meaning dictionary.com lists for "nafta" is the North American Free Trade Agreement. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 8 09:59:16 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:59:16 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Richard Find out if MEK will disolve the plastic.If so, you should be able to use that to do a reasonable job. You may have to file or scrape some material of. You have to remember that when these thing break, the relieve some stresses in the plastic and the parts will not perfectly fit together in exact alignment. As for the CRT thing, some of the suggestions were intended to give you a zap if it held a charge. I recommend taking a small screw driver and attach a wire to the frame that is in contact with the back side of the tube ( the grayed area ). With the screw driver, slide it around the rubber to make sure it isn't stuck to the tube and it will help to dicharge most of the charge on the tube. As was mentoioned, squeezing the rubber and pushing to the side will usually release the catch. If that doesn't work, use some long nose pliers ( ground wired ). Place the pliers such that it is aligned with the cord and slip it under the rubber cup. squeeze the two metal wires gound into the hole on the tube and wiggle. Dwight >From: Richard >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Humpty Dumpty >Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 19:46:54 -0700 > >Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty back >together again? > >Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > Visual Technology terminals offered > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) > > > > > > > > > > > >This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing posts in the >keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't appear damaged >and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, but obviously the case >is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay seller accused me of trying to >rip them off by claiming damage and then made a big stink about me >giving them negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated >pillow style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened it. They >also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like utter >bullshit. > >I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the pieces >of the case back together to get something stable enough to have the >electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power it on and >man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) > >I suppose it would be prohibitively expensive to try and recast a new >plastic enclosure for it... >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Feb 8 10:07:59 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:07:59 -0500 Subject: HP 2112A In-Reply-To: References: <200702051645.l15GjqKO012473@mail.bcpl.net>, Message-ID: <200702081608.l18G7x8L022116@mail.bcpl.net> On 7 Feb 2007 at 19:30, Richard Lynch wrote: > "12992 B" is written on the top of the chip. OK, per page 13-31 of the CE Handbook, that would be the 79xx disc loader ROM. It's possible that the white stick-on HP label fell off at some point, and the owner wrote the part number on the chip in pencil. If you're curious, you can check the ROM contents against the loader listing on page 13-18 of the Handbook (when you get a base set board, that is :-). Top priority would be to obtain that base set microcode board. You really can't get anywhere without it. -- Dave From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 8 10:19:26 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:19:26 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 February 2007 09:06, Richard wrote: > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. Like the 3278-S3G I got off ebay recently, the VT340, which I traded to a friend for a 68040 VME CPU board, or any of the NCD or HDS Xterminals I've got laying around. :) Oh, and I've got a couple IBM Xterminals, too.. And I almost had a pair of E&S PS390s. Unfortunately, I discovered that all the boards were removed by the time I got them, when I went to pick them up. :( Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 8 10:24:16 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:24:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070208162416.421D758864@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by William Donzelli > > > *$#@!* > > ???? > I believe a Q*bert reference was being made... :) Cheers, Bryan P.S. But then it should have been "@!#?@!" From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 10:32:07 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:32:07 -0600 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <2789adda0702080832o322a03e2m12ab2a7d285c6e9e@mail.gmail.com> I would start with Naphtha (maybe called "Naptha" in USA) first as its about the most gentle petro based solvent thats easily available. "paint thinner" has various formulations depending on the brand and is probably too harsh on plastics, perhaps a fast soak and wipe off to dry might be ok but if your item is precious I would be wary. The difference in how these solvents burn your skin will tell you how harsh they are! Goof Off and similar products come in a water based version (no VOC) that I use for soaking labels and media like tape and film to soften and wash off dried or sticky glue residue. Sometimes it takes a combination of solvents to clean. For instance Naptha and then a dilute alkline cleaner like 409/simple green followed by a rinse or wipe with distilled water. If you item is really valuable, forget all of this and go get some real help. On 2/8/07, der Mouse wrote: > > > It is called "nafta", is a powerful remover and lighter fluid. > > A more conventional spelling - probably more useful to anyone looking > for it online - is "naphtha". At least assuming that's the substance > you are referring to; the only meaning dictionary.com lists for "nafta" > is the North American Free Trade Agreement. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 10:34:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:34:03 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CB50FB.9070406@gmail.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Find out if MEK will disolve the plastic.If so, you should be able to use > that to do a reasonable job. You may have to file or scrape some > material of. You have to remember that when these thing break, > the relieve some stresses in the plastic and the parts will not perfectly > fit together in exact alignment. MEK will shortly be much harder to get. It's a listed illicit drug precursor. Peace... Sridhar From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 8 10:36:05 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:36:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer movies part VI In-Reply-To: <001f01c74b38$14c2a1e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20070208163605.987DB4C9A9@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by John Allain > > Will said: > > Someone talk about mainframes. > > I just got a cheap DVD the old 1983 "Brainstorm" and besides being a good > "wires everywhere" type of movie, it is a great way to recall old tech. > There are suitcase terminals, test equipment everywhere, oh yeah, and I > think I spotted both the consoles (only, sorry to say) from an IBM 1620 > and maybe a 360 towards the center of the lab. Will go back over it in more > detail in the not so far future. > I just checked imdb and it stars Christopher "Needs more cowbell" Walken! :) Cheers, Bryan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Feb 8 10:36:27 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:36:27 -0200 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com><058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <06ef01c74b9f$72558900$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> It is called "nafta", is a powerful remover and lighter fluid. > A more conventional spelling - probably more useful to anyone looking > for it online - is "naphtha". At least assuming that's the substance > you are referring to; the only meaning dictionary.com lists for "nafta" > is the North American Free Trade Agreement. Ops...forgot I wasn't speaking portuguese :o) Sorry you all :o) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 10:44:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:44:57 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45CB5389.2040706@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 08 February 2007 09:06, Richard wrote: >> Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character >> capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. > > Like the 3278-S3G I got off ebay recently, the VT340, which I traded to a The VT340, graphical 3278 and 3279 qualify as "rare". > friend for a 68040 VME CPU board, or any of the NCD or HDS Xterminals > I've got laying around. :) Oh, and I've got a couple IBM Xterminals, > too.. Xterminals don't count. They're basically full-fledged computers. They're not really terminals. The IBM Xstations can even accept internal hard drives for swap and such. If you count them, there's nothing stopping you from counting things like Citrix clients. Peace... Sridhar From kth at srv.net Thu Feb 8 10:52:34 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:52:34 -0700 Subject: ISO: A good explanation of EBCDIC control seuqnces In-Reply-To: <45C9FD70.10335.14C2E3C4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45C9FD70.10335.14C2E3C4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CB5552.3070108@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Lately, I've been plowing through a bunch of EBCDIC-encoded WP > documents. I don't have a problem finding EBCDIC charts with > mnemonics, but I'd like some more detail on control character > operation. For example, what's the difference between IT PT and HT? > What sequence does CSP introduce and what are its variations? > > I've done some web searching but can't come up with anything > definitive. Any pointers would be welcome. > If these are Word Processing documents, those codes are probably special formatting codes, and not actually used as defined in any chart. They would have been defined by the specific Word Processing program used. Many WP file formats use these "out-of-band" control characters that did not have any printable form for this purpose. WordPerfect, WordStar, DecWord, etc. all do this. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 8 11:49:54 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:49:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <00aa01c74b66$572d6a50$4f04010a@uatempname> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Feb 08, 2007 09:48:49 AM Message-ID: <200702081749.l18HntDV027806@onyx.spiritone.com> Antonio wrote: > There is a turntable out there that is completely non-contact, it > uses a laser based pickup (actually five lasers I think). It will > set you back a tidy sum though. I assume you're talking about the one that looks like a large Laserdisc player? IIRC, when it came out it cost $30k. The big disadvantage to it is that the records must be *spotless*, as even a speck of dust will effect playback. The reviews I've read also speak of the audio quality being a little flat and lifeless. What I find very interesting is that you're supposed to be able to take the pieces of a broken record and carefully arrange them on the "platter" and play them. I'd love to see one in action and hear it for myself, but I doubt I'll ever be able to afford one. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 12:04:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:04:00 -0800 Subject: ISO: A good explanation of EBCDIC control seuqnces In-Reply-To: <45CB5552.3070108@srv.net> References: <45C9FD70.10335.14C2E3C4@cclist.sydex.com>, <45CB5552.3070108@srv.net> Message-ID: <45CAF590.4403.188C1E90@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 9:52, Kevin Handy wrote: > Many WP file formats use these "out-of-band" control > characters that did not have any printable form for this > purpose. WordPerfect, WordStar, DecWord, etc. all do this. I hadn't realized that WordPerfect, WordStar, DecWord, etc. operated in EBCDIC. If it's EBCDIC, I'm clearly talking about IBM, who usually has better quality of standardization and documentation for this kind of stuff than the "DLE means what we say it means" ASCII-oriented WP software. I'm sure you're aware that unlike ASCII, which seems to be built for 7-level TTY, EBCDIC has a very rich set of control characters with very specific typographic functions (e.g. SBS, SPS, PLU, HTJ, HTS, NBSP, RNL). In particular, I'm interested in the CSP+'M' sequences; I've already found documents on the CSP+''L' sequences. And there most likely is an IBM document that spells out the difference between HT, IT, PT and HTJ, all of which are varietes of horizontal tabulation. Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 12:09:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:09:40 -0800 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45CAF6E4.28178.18914D97@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 10:48, der Mouse wrote: > A more conventional spelling - probably more useful to anyone looking > for it online - is "naphtha". At least assuming that's the substance > you are referring to; the only meaning dictionary.com lists for "nafta" > is the North American Free Trade Agreement. Note that Jim's already tried "naptha"--Goo-gone is mostly naptha, with a bit of citrus oil in it. If GG doesn't work, lighter fluid/naptha isn't going to work either. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 12:16:04 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <45CAF864.13394.18972BC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 7:07, Richard wrote: > In order to do what? Honestly, I really don't understand the point of > this single sentence response. Someone's having you on, Richard. It can be quite a surprise to some that a high-voltage charge can be held for weeks by a CRT. Didn't Visual build the Commuter PC into what amounts to a portable terminal? I was loaned one by the company during their chapter 11 phase in the mid-80's. They asked if I would take it as partial payment and I declined--internally, the thing was a rat's nest. Cheers, Chuck From shumaker at att.net Thu Feb 8 12:18:32 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:18:32 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702081749.l18HntDV027806@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <00aa01c74b66$572d6a50$4f04010a@uatempname> <200702081749.l18HntDV027806@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070208101327.031fc450@att.net> Fascinating merger of new technology with old concepts - especially the bit about recovering signal that that has never been touched. Just looked out on the net... Current prices range from $15K-$19K. They actually recommend a specific disk cleaner to solve the dirt/dust problem. www.laserturntable.com/about/index.html ss At 09:49 AM 2/8/2007, you wrote: >Antonio wrote: > > There is a turntable out there that is completely non-contact, it > > uses a laser based pickup (actually five lasers I think). It will > > set you back a tidy sum though. > >I assume you're talking about the one that looks like a large Laserdisc >player? IIRC, when it came out it cost $30k. The big disadvantage to it is >that the records must be *spotless*, as even a speck of dust will effect >playback. The reviews I've read also speak of the audio quality being a >little flat and lifeless. What I find very interesting is that you're >supposed to be able to take the pieces of a broken record and carefully >arrange them on the "platter" and play them. I'd love to see one in action >and hear it for myself, but I doubt I'll ever be able to afford one. > >Zane From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Feb 8 03:13:43 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:13:43 +0000 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:57:20 CST." <45CA7570.2070509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200702080913.JAA06824@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jim Leonard said: > Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > On 07/02/07, woodelf wrote: > >> William Donzelli wrote: > >> *$#@!* You have not read the fine print on the CD format. > >> (Too low a sampling rate ) > > > > I don't think the sampling rate of CD's is too low. > > Exactly, the sampling rate is fine. > > Now, the amplitude... that is indeed not enough. There is an audible > difference between 16-bit and 24-bit recordings in the quiet parts. > Thankfully, DVD-Audio and SACD have both addressed that. Another problem is the digital to analog transition. Most cd players use sharp cut-off "brick-wall" filters to remove the digital steps from the d2a converter. This type of filter is notorious for large amplitude and phase shift swings near the cut-off frequency. At least one firm made money by taking Sony cd players and installing their own electronics with lower slope and thus "cleaner" filters, allegedly with good results. There is a classic computer connection, one of the firms was Linn who funded the development of the Rekursiv computer and the Lingo programming language back in the '80s. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 8 12:52:11 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:52:11 -0000 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702081749.l18HntDV027806@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00c301c74bb2$4324b710$4f04010a@uatempname> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Antonio wrote: >> There is a turntable out there that is completely non-contact, it >> uses a laser based pickup (actually five lasers I think). It will >> set you back a tidy sum though. > > I assume you're talking about the one that looks like a large > Laserdisc player? IIRC, when it came out it cost $30k. The big > disadvantage to it is that the records must be *spotless*, as even a > speck of dust will effect playback. The reviews I've read also speak > of the audio quality being a little flat and lifeless. What I find > very interesting is that you're supposed to be able to take the > pieces of a broken record and carefully arrange them on the "platter" > and play them. I'd love to see one in action and hear it for myself, > but I doubt I'll ever be able to afford one. The UK distributor has a page here: http://www.laser-vinyl.com/Turntables/Laser/TheLaserTurntable.htm ?10k for the "Archivist" version (which will do up to 12" and 78rpm). You can solve the "dust bunnies" problem with their record cleaner (sounds like it's a posh vacuum cleaner - quite posh since it's ?475!). I don?t think I'll be ordering one this side of a lottery win as the only thing I could play on it that is not already available on CD is one of those magazine "discs" for the Spectrum. I expect that I can find some other way of reconstructing that if needed! Antonio From ptykodi at tykodi.com Thu Feb 8 12:54:37 2007 From: ptykodi at tykodi.com (Paul Tykodi) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:54:37 -0500 Subject: ISO: A good explanation of EBCDIC control seuqnces In-Reply-To: <200702080322.l183LmHU016466@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702080322.l183LmHU016466@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <08a901c74bb2$972143b0$0649a8c0@TCSLAPTOP01> Hi Chuck, If you know the name of the WP package that created the files, I can check and see whether I have the manual that would explain the command formats utilized. Best Regards, /Paul -- Paul Tykodi Principal Consultant TCS - Tykodi Consulting Services LLC E-mail: ptykodi at tykodi.com > Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:25:20 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: ISO: A good explanation of EBCDIC control sequences > > Lately, I've been plowing through a bunch of EBCDIC-encoded WP > documents. I don't have a problem finding EBCDIC charts with > mnemonics, but I'd like some more detail on control character > operation. For example, what's the difference between IT PT and HT? > What sequence does CSP introduce and what are its variations? > > I've done some web searching but can't come up with anything > definitive. Any pointers would be welcome. > > Cheers, > Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Feb 8 13:08:00 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:08:00 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <1170925526.11108.68.camel@linux.site> References: <200702080128.l181SlwC011906@onyx.spiritone.com> <1170925526.11108.68.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <34bf01c74bb4$74447b30$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Warren Wolfe Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 17:28 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I still fail to see a reason to transfer most of my LP's to a digital > format. As I have a very good turntable, the LP's will last longer than any > copies I make, and in order to do a good job at transferring all of them, > I'd have to invest 1000's of hours. I will transfer a few of my favorites > so that I can put them on my new iPod. Okay, try THIS on for size... Every time you play a vinyl LP, you degrade it. Granted, not as MUCH as if it were a 78, but a finite amount. Every time you play a CD you made from the LP, that is one less play of the LP, and an avoidance of the inevitable degradation. --- I'm still kicking myself for not getting the turntable I saw a few years ago, it used a pair of lasers, one for tracking the groove and one for reading the groove.... From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 8 13:42:13 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:42:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <34bf01c74bb4$74447b30$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG Thanks, Bob From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 13:48:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:48:51 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:59:16 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > As for the CRT thing, some of the suggestions were intended to > give you a zap if it held a charge. I recommend taking a small screw > driver and attach a wire to the frame that is in contact with the > back side of the tube ( the grayed area ). With the screw driver, > slide it around the rubber to make sure it isn't stuck to the tube > and it will help to dicharge most of the charge on the tube. > As was mentoioned, squeezing the rubber and pushing to the > side will usually release the catch. What I don't understand is WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH REPAIRING THE CASE? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 13:50:16 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:50:16 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: <011c01c74b32$54c67a10$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 2/8/07, Richard wrote: > As near as I can tell, there are like 3 people who care about > terminals: myself, Paul Shuford (who is the only source of online > information about many kinds of terminals) and Paul Williams (who runs > and maintains vt100.net). 4. I have a collection of terminals, 90% of which are various DEC models (VT-50 through about VT-320), but a couple of Tektronix, couple of Planar, Heathkit, CiTOH, etc. > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. I'd have to check the stack, but the Tektronix terminals are color graphics + text (local printer port, etc.), and of course, the VT241 is color graphics + text, as is the DEC GIGI. I agree - they are rare. Rarer are the applications to drive them. I don't know of many color Tek apps, but there were quite a few for the GIGI under TOPS-20. > Terminals that have 3D graphics builtin are even scarcer than that. Indeed. I don't know if I've ever seen one. > The Visual > 500 therefore is of interest to me because it is older and has > graphics. (Not all Visual terminals have graphics, but the 500 does.) Interesting. Shame the seller was too cheap/ignorant to package things properly. I have to wonder how he got them to accept it - I've been to the UPS depot and seen them turn away customers with boxes that had heavy, shifting loads (improperly packaged computer bits). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 13:51:38 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:51:38 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:44:57 -0500. <45CB5389.2040706@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <45CB5389.2040706 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Xterminals don't count. They're basically full-fledged computers. > They're not really terminals. [...] They count to me :-), but there's a certain point where all the X terminals look like a little pizza box to which you attach PS2 keyboards and mice and a VGA display. That's kinda where they become less interesting because they're essentially a commodity at that point. Similar to the way terminals all become the same as they all have the electronics housed in something that is not much bigger than the tube. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 13:53:39 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:53:39 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0800. <45CAF864.13394.18972BC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <45CAF864.13394.18972BC0 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Didn't Visual build the Commuter PC into what amounts to a portable > terminal? Yes, you can find a page about it on old-computers.com. When LCD displays became economical, there were a number of portable terminals that all look similar to the Random Colleague. (Talk about a company with a sense of humor!) Like many terminal vendors, they realized it doesn't take much more to turn it into a personal computer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 13:55:54 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:55:54 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:19:26 -0500. <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200702081119.26990.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Thursday 08 February 2007 09:06, Richard wrote: > > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. > > Like the 3278-S3G I got off ebay recently, the VT340, which I traded to a > friend for a 68040 VME CPU board, or any of the NCD or HDS Xterminals > I've got laying around. :) Oh, and I've got a couple IBM Xterminals, > too.. When you're sick of storing these, let me know :-) > And I almost had a pair of E&S PS390s. Unfortunately, I discovered that > all the boards were removed by the time I got them, when I went to pick > them up. :( I would have taken them even without the boards, but I admit to having an E&S fetish. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 13:57:40 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:57:40 -0700 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:42:13 -0800. <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <842915.17733.qm at web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. Looks like some sort of mud wasp? Have you tried one of those steam cleaners? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 8 13:59:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:59:26 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty References: Message-ID: <007a01c74bbb$a597b920$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > What I don't understand is > > WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH REPAIRING THE CASE? Richard, someone was just making a funny - a joke. Move along, nothing to see here.... Jay From john at guntersville.net Thu Feb 8 14:09:33 2007 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:09:33 -0600 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) References: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45CB837D.604ED92F@guntersville.net> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG > > Thanks, > > Bob Dirt/mud dauber nest... They can be removed with water and a brush but it will take a bit of work.. Chip away what you can safely, use something a little stiff like an acid brush and add a little detergent to the water. What ever they add to the dirt is somewhat water resistant but it will wash away after a bit. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 14:11:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:11:34 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <34bf01c74bb4$74447b30$0701a8c0@liberator>, <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45CB1376.13991.1900EA1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 11:42, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG Looks like something a mud-dauber wasp might make. Water (with a bit of dishwashing--not dishwasher) detergent left to soak for a day or two should eventually soften it up sufficiently to remove. With clay nests, you just have to have patience. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 8 14:13:43 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:13:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070208101327.031fc450@att.net> from "Steve Shumaker" at Feb 08, 2007 10:18:32 AM Message-ID: <200702082013.l18KDhcA031077@onyx.spiritone.com> > Fascinating merger of new technology with old concepts - especially > the bit about recovering signal that that has never been > touched. Just looked out on the net... Current prices range from > $15K-$19K. They actually recommend a specific disk cleaner to > solve the dirt/dust problem. > > www.laserturntable.com/about/index.html Interesting choice of a cleaning machine they offer. Either a Keith Monks, or one of the Loricraft machines would be much better (and safer). If you can afford a Laser turntable, you should be able to afford a better cleaning machine. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 8 14:14:28 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:14:28 -0600 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) References: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009301c74bbd$bf13da80$6600a8c0@BILLING> Those are most definitely wasp nests, a particular variety we here at least call "Mud Daubers". The "nest" varies in appearance from a series of tubes, to a simple mass with a hole or two in it. They are made from mud, and will come apart when wet. However, they are unusually hard mud, almost cement-like! The way they are normally removed on buildings & such is whacking them with a board or hammer. In your case, it's very likely to take components off the board if you do that. My suggestion would be to moisten the mud with water, which it will soak up. Moisten again... keep repeating, till the whole thing softens. I'm just guessing if this would be the best way to remove. Of course, be very sure there are no live wasps in side it! Be aware they may also be live larvae inside the mud nest too. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Rosenbloom" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:42 PM Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) >I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how > to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as > concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want > to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG > > Thanks, > > Bob > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 14:07:21 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:07:21 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:50:16 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > On 2/8/07, Richard wrote: > > As near as I can tell, there are like 3 people who care about > > terminals: myself, Paul Shuford (who is the only source of online > > information about many kinds of terminals) and Paul Williams (who runs > > and maintains vt100.net). > > 4. I have a collection of terminals, 90% of which are various DEC > models (VT-50 through about VT-320), but a couple of Tektronix, couple > of Planar, Heathkit, CiTOH, etc. Pictures? Web site? I intend to do a full online history of terminals at some point; something like old-computers.com but just for terminals (there are enough varieties and manufacturers to justify such a huge database; have you ever browsed the TERMCAP stuff? There's tons of terminals out there, but most are rather boring.) I've not heard of Planar before, so I'd like to hear about that one. > > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. > > I'd have to check the stack, but the Tektronix terminals are color > graphics + text (local printer port, etc.), I don't think Tektronix ever made a terminal that wasn't graphics capable :-) and when they went to raster displays from storage scopes, I believe they were all color capable. I have a 4010, a 4014 and several 4105s and 4205s. > and of course, the VT241 > is color graphics + text, as is the DEC GIGI. The 340s occasionally appear on ebay, but they generally sell for around $350, so I haven't purchased one yet. > I agree - they are > rare. Rarer are the applications to drive them. Oh, I don't know of any extant applications that still care about these kinds of terminals unless we're talking about something as mundane as unix plot. (Although linux seems to have discarded all that terminal functionality that was in the original plot series of programs and just reduced it to Tektronix 4010.) However, since the escape codes are documented in the user manuals and the manuals seem to have survived fairly well for most models, I am intending to write code that will put them through their paces via an ordinary PC. > > Terminals that have 3D graphics builtin are even scarcer than that. > > Indeed. I don't know if I've ever seen one. There are the E&S terminals and the other "CAD terminal" vendors of the 80s. SGI's first product was such a terminal, before they started doing workstations in their second generation product line. I don't know that Tektronix ever had a terminal with 3D builtin, but Megatek made stuff in that category and I believe the AED 512 also had 3D builtin. It was the display list based stuff and was the precursor to the graphics workstation. I have two Megateks: a black and white model and a color model, both of which have 3D locally. The intent was that you'd load the model into the terminal's memory and then it wasn't very much bandwidth to respond to user input and send down new transformation matrices to update the position/orientation of the models in the terminal's memory. If you are familiar with GKS and PHIGS, its mental model of doing computer graphics maps very nicely onto these terminals (no surprise there). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 8 14:25:35 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:25:35 -0500 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200702082023.l18KNdAe020056@keith.ezwind.net> Try a bit of WD40 and see if it softens it. Just one more Bob heard from :) On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:42:13 -0800 (PST), Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that >some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: >http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG >http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG >http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG >Thanks, >Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 8 14:27:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:27:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <49b2483f7c6d6c0e61ff780b6ddeb00b@valleyimplants.com> References: <49b2483f7c6d6c0e61ff780b6ddeb00b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20070208122504.I35814@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > with an external 400 or 800k floppy. The SuperDrive (original > SuperDrive, not the "new" CD/DVD one) [present on all Macs since the > IIx, many IIs and some SEs (SE FDHD)] has the smaller head size and > your older machine won't read it properly. WRT the swapping- can't There is a completely different recording method (MFM v Mac GCR). What are the dimensions of the different size heads? From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 8 14:34:38 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:34:38 -0600 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] Message-ID: <20070208203438.DUPE12624.ibm64aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > I don't think Tektronix ever made a terminal that wasn't graphics > capable :-) and when they went to raster displays from storage scopes, > I believe they were all color capable. I remember at least on counter-example, the 4025. It was a mono raster unit. We had a 4025 at the research lab of the first company I worked for out of college. It was connected to one of those electrostatic printers. We drove it from a VAX 11/750 running BSD4.2 and later 4.3. BLS From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 14:36:29 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:36:29 -0700 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:14:28 -0600. <009301c74bbd$bf13da80$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <009301c74bbd$bf13da80$6600a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > They are made from mud, and will come apart when wet. That's why I was thinking one of those steam cleaners would work well on it. I've got one of these and its amazing what it manages to "dissolve" where previously soaking and scrubbing yielded no results. I've used my steam cleaner to remove baked on gunk on a stove and it softened it up in no-time so that I just had to wipe it away with a sponge. The effect is somewhat exaggerated on the TV commercial, but it performs close enough to the ideal scenario they depict that I didn't feel ripped off. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 14:42:55 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:42:55 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/8/07, Richard wrote: > In article , > "Ethan Dicks" writes: > > 4. I have a collection of terminals, 90% of which are various DEC > > models (VT-50 through about VT-320), but a couple of Tektronix, couple > > of Planar, Heathkit, CiTOH, etc. > > Pictures? Web site? Unfortunately, no. I have few photos of my gear, mostly because I want the photos to look nice and I don't have decent lighting, etc. > I intend to do a full online history of terminals > at some point; something like old-computers.com but just for terminals Nice. I'd enjoy contributing at some point. > have you ever browsed the TERMCAP stuff? Yes. Yes, I have, when I was using UNIX and VMS everyday from a VT100 (c. 1985-1993). I ported a few programs from UNIX to VMS from comp.sources.games, and got entangled in a curses-infested nightmare. > I've not heard of Planar before, so I'd like to hear about that one. They are still around. They now make VGA and DVI LCD panels, but at one point, they made terminals and PCs. I have a Planar wall-mount 486 (LCD, 2.5" disk, external CD-ROM...) and couple Planar ELT-320s. The ELT-320s are VT320 compatible with 9" electro-luminescent screens, thus "ELT-320". They run on +12VDC (external power brick) and have plugs for your choice of PC/AT keyboard or DEC LK201, and have MMJ serial plus DE-9. Very handy, and, with a 9" flat screen, very portable. One has a small pedestal for desk use, the other is in a wall-mount case, that resembles a first aid kit on a factory floor. > I don't think Tektronix ever made a terminal that wasn't graphics > capable :-) and when they went to raster displays from storage scopes, > I believe they were all color capable. I have a 4010, a 4014 and > several 4105s and 4205s. Hmm... 4105 or 4205 rings a bell. > The 340s occasionally appear on ebay, but they generally sell for > around $350, so I haven't purchased one yet. Me, neither. > > I agree - they are rare. Rarer are the applications to drive them. > > Oh, I don't know of any extant applications that still care about > these kinds of terminals unless we're talking about something as > mundane as unix plot. That _still_ care? Almost none. I more meant that back in the day, there were lots and lots of games and business applications that were coded for curses or raw VT-100 escape sequences, etc., and far fewer that knew about graphics command sets. The largest body of code I've run across that is expecting a graphics terminal is, as I said, a collection of programs under TOPS-20 for the GIGI. >From what I remember, graphical workstation prices started falling in the late 1980s at the same time color graphics terminals were becoming more common. I think that, in the DEC world, at least, folks transitioned from VT100s/VT220s/etc. to PCs or workstations, not color graphics terminals. Mono text terminals continued to have a niche, since there was never a bottom-line justification to migrate to color, and especially not to color graphics. > (Although linux seems to have discarded all > that terminal functionality that was in the original plot series of > programs and just reduced it to Tektronix 4010.) Yeah... in general, Linux seems to be far less terminal friendly than it was 10 years ago. > However, since the escape codes are documented in the user manuals > and the manuals seem to have survived fairly well for most models, I > am intending to write code that will put them through their paces via > an ordinary PC. True enough - at least in the case of DEC-compatible and Tek-compatible, the command sets are well known, as are the warts with each terminal model (cf vttest). > > > Terminals that have 3D graphics builtin are even scarcer than that. > > > > Indeed. I don't know if I've ever seen one. > > There are the E&S terminals and the other "CAD terminal" vendors of > the 80s. SGI's first product was such a terminal, before they started > doing workstations in their second generation product line. Makes sense. That wasn't a world I got to play in much. -ethan From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 8 15:01:19 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <009301c74bbd$bf13da80$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <448136.8452.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I had one drive soaking in a bucket for three days now. Still hard as rock. I'm pretty sure the bugs are long dead, probably 15 or more years ago. They are like Jay said, a mass with tubes through it, water poored out of the tubes when I removed the drive from the bucket. I'll try the steam or WD40 ideas this weekend and see what happens. Bob Jay West wrote: Those are most definitely wasp nests, a particular variety we here at least call "Mud Daubers". The "nest" varies in appearance from a series of tubes, to a simple mass with a hole or two in it. They are made from mud, and will come apart when wet. However, they are unusually hard mud, almost cement-like! The way they are normally removed on buildings & such is whacking them with a board or hammer. In your case, it's very likely to take components off the board if you do that. My suggestion would be to moisten the mud with water, which it will soak up. Moisten again... keep repeating, till the whole thing softens. I'm just guessing if this would be the best way to remove. Of course, be very sure there are no live wasps in side it! Be aware they may also be live larvae inside the mud nest too. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Rosenbloom" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:42 PM Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) >I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how > to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as > concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want > to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG > > Thanks, > > Bob > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 15:11:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:11:52 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:42:55 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > On 2/8/07, Richard wrote: > > I intend to do a full online history of terminals > > at some point; something like old-computers.com but just for terminals > > Nice. I'd enjoy contributing at some point. Great, I'll keep that in mind. Just as I was composing a reply to the list, I stumbled across this site which seems to have the very early TTY style portion of this history covered: North American Data Communications Museum . I guess I hadn't stumbled across it before because it focuses on the Teletype and sort of leaves off where terminals begin. > > I've not heard of Planar before, so I'd like to hear about that one. > > They are still around. They now make VGA and DVI LCD panels, but at > one point, they made terminals and PCs. Ah. I notice that old-computers.com doesn't have anything on their PCs so you might consider submitting some basic information to them for the PC portion. (I've tried submitting information on terminals, but they reject it as "outside their scope", although they have the ADM-3A in their database.) I'd heard of the LCD displays under that name, but you know how company names tend to get recycled in our industry, you can't always depend that its the same manufacturer. > > I don't think Tektronix ever made a terminal that wasn't graphics > > capable :-) and when they went to raster displays from storage scopes, > > I believe they were all color capable. I have a 4010, a 4014 and > > several 4105s and 4205s. > > Hmm... 4105 or 4205 rings a bell. They are essentially the same terminal, but the 4205 has a little more memory and a little faster processing and a slightly smaller case although the tubes seem to be the same size. They are both color raster displays. They have an integrated pointing "puck" built into the keyboard so that does make them a little unusual. There is also this DE-9 (D subminiature) style connector on the keyboard teasingly labelled "mouse", but I've never been able to find out any information on just what kind of mouse you can connect to it. > That _still_ care? Almost none. I more meant that back in the day, > there were lots and lots of games and business applications that were > coded for curses or raw VT-100 escape sequences, etc., and far fewer > that knew about graphics command sets. The largest body of code I've > run across that is expecting a graphics terminal is, as I said, a > collection of programs under TOPS-20 for the GIGI. Yeah, I get the impression that the kinds of programs written for these terminals died with the minicomputers and mainframes that ran them. Just think of the hard time Al Kossow has finding old software for vintage machines and multiply the level of difficulty by 10 or even 100 because for as many people as there were with minis and mainframes, it seems that only a small fraction of them did anything with graphics. Nowadays everything has "graphics", but back then it was a significant sum on top of the already significant sum for the computing hardware that you really had to be able to justify the expense. Things like CAD could justify it, but they would be running custom software (now CAD is a commodity, but before the PC I got the impression that each engineering house developed their own CAD system inhouse). The companies that created their own CAD software aren't likely to let their old machines slip out the door with the software still loaded, although I'm sure it happened on occasion. > >From what I remember, graphical workstation prices started falling in > the late 1980s at the same time color graphics terminals were becoming > more common. Yeah, the market window for high-end 3D terminals was a small one, I think. That's what makes them interesting to collect from my perspective :-). I am still amazed that I managed to get the color Megatek terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 15:15:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:15:12 -0700 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:01:19 -0800. <448136.8452.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <448136.8452.qm at web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I had one drive soaking in a bucket for three days now. Still hard as rock. Wow. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 8 14:10:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:10:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <00bf01c74b34$4bbba600$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from "Julian Wolfe" at Feb 7, 7 09:50:38 pm Message-ID: > > Sorry, forgot to add, you should pull it off AS FAST AS POSSIBLE to pull > your arm away from the charge that may arc from it. If you can pull that connecotr off faster than the arc developing to your fingers, there's probably a world record waiting for you in some sport or other.... In any case, ripping it off is likely to damage either the CRT or the connector, or both. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 8 14:05:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:05:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from "Julian Wolfe" at Feb 7, 7 09:20:19 pm Message-ID: > > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger under the suction > cup and pull, and it should come off. Apart from giving the OP a possible nasty electric shock, what is this supposed to achieve? And the anode _connector_ (not the anode itself, which is a conductive coating on the inside of the CRT) doesn't just pull off in most cases. You have to unhook the ends of the connector from the lips of the metal socket sealed into the CRT glass. But before doing that, you want to discharge the CRT. I use my EHT proble for this (it;'s an 800M resistor in series with a microammeter). Clip the return lead onto the CRT earhing contact,the slip the probe under the conenctor cap until it makes contact with the metal conenctor. Wait for it to discharge, then remvoe the connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 8 14:32:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:32:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 8, 7 00:32:11 am Message-ID: > > > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger under the suction > > cup and pull, and it should come off. > > You should not need to put your finger under the cup to pull it off (a > little suprise might be under there anyway). Most HV anode connections > on CRTs can be removed by squeezing the outside of the cup, while > giving it a bit of a lifting twist, if that makes sense. Once it comes > loose, it can be moved over and touched to something to ground it. I In general the storage capactiro is part of the CRT (the anode coating on the inside, an earthed coating on the outside, and the glass as the dielectric between them). You shouldn't have any stored high voltages on the unclipped anode connecotr. > have never been shocked doing it this way, although a couple of times > I did get a good spark. A very clean CRT can hold a charge for well > over a day. _Well_ over a day! > I have been bitten other ways with CRT high voltage, and while not fun > experience, the pain is temporary. I am still alive. In fact, I have I had the 30 kV of the EHT in my Barco monitor flash over to my hand (while the monitor was turned on). It was darn unpleasant, I said some things I am not going to repeat here, and I don't want to repeat the experience. > never actually heard of anyone dying from a CRT zap. The worst case Unless you have a heart problem, a pacemaker, etc, it's unlikely the stored charge in a CRT would be fatal. Ditto the output of a working high-freuqnecy EHT generator (such as the output of a flyback transformer). But be careful if yoou work on DEC vector displays (VR14, etc). Those things have mains-derrived EHT in them. The capactiors are _much_ higher than those used with high-frequency generators -- around 0.1uF I think. And the output current when in operaton can be a lot higher than from a flyback transformer. I think this could well be fatal if touched. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 8 13:58:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:58:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 7, 7 07:46:54 pm Message-ID: > > Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty back > together again? Ouch! > > Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > Visual Technology terminals offered > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) > This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing posts in the > keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't appear damaged > and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, but obviously the case > is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay seller accused me of trying to > rip them off by claiming damage and then made a big stink about me > giving them negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, how promptly you paid, etc. It would be better if E-bay kept feedback private until both parties had provided said feedback (at which point both sets of comments would be public, as they are now). But I can't see that changing any time soon. > pillow style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened it. They > also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like utter > bullshit. > > I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of the pieces > of the case back together to get something stable enough to have the > electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power it on and > man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) I think it's certain you'll never get it looking like new. So the aim is to get it working and safe... Firstly take the whole thing apart. It's a lot easier to work on 'bare' plastic cabinet shells, without PCBs, etc, in place. Try to find a solvent that will disolve this plastic. Dichloromethane (methylene chloride) is often suitable. Then put the parts together and run a brush dipped in the solvent along the cracks. But that won't be strong enough. One way to strengthn in is to take some cotton fabric, cut a piece to fit over the back of the repair, put it in place and paint it with the solvent. Once the plastic has softened, force the fabric into the plastic. For major repairs, I'd probably make metal or fibreglass (PCB material with the copper removed) plates to fit inside, then drill holes and bolt them in place. Fro broken mounting posts, I'd smooth off the plastic inside the case, them make a new post (probably metal if electrical insulation is not a requirement), drilled and tapped along the centre. Then screw it in place. > > I suppose it would be prohibitively expensive to try and recast a new > plastic enclosure for it... I think so. People have done small injection moulding jobs at home (small meaning about the size od a keycap), but I don't think you'll do anything this large. Anyway, making the mould would be more work than repairing the old case. -tony From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Feb 8 15:20:26 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:20:26 -0500 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <448136.8452.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <009301c74bbd$bf13da80$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070208161600.05188868@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bob Rosenbloom may have mentioned these words: >I had one drive soaking in a bucket for three days now. Still hard as >rock. I'm pretty sure the bugs are long dead, probably 15 or more years >ago. They are like Jay said, a mass with tubes through it, water poored >out of the tubes when I removed the drive from the bucket. I'll try the >steam or WD40 ideas this weekend and see what happens. Possibly something stronger but still innocuous might work... say, isoprop[ano|y]l? Naphtha (lighter fluid - but get it by the quart/litre at the hardware store instead - much cheaper that way! ;-) might also work, but that might leave a film that could be tougher to clean off afterwards... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 8 15:25:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:25:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 8, 7 12:48:51 pm Message-ID: > > give you a zap if it held a charge. I recommend taking a small screw > > driver and attach a wire to the frame that is in contact with the > > back side of the tube ( the grayed area ). With the screw driver, I would recomend against doing this. If there is a significant charge on the CRT, there will be a high peak current when the screwdriver makes contact. This can damage the connection between the anode coating and the connector, and more seriously it can (particularly if you happen to use 'any old ground point' rather than the outer coating of the CRT directly) damage semiconductors all over the instrument. I'd always include a suitable high-voltage-rated resistor in series with the discharging lead. As I said, I normally use my EHT voltmeter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 8 15:22:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:22:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <007a01c74bbb$a597b920$6600a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Feb 8, 7 01:59:26 pm Message-ID: > > Richard wrote.... > > What I don't understand is > > > > WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH REPAIRING THE CASE? > > Richard, someone was just making a funny - a joke. Move along, nothing to > see here.... I like a good prank as much as anybody, but I don;'t find anything remotely amusing in giving somebody a possibly serious electric shock when they're working on an evacuated glass vessel... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 8 15:41:24 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:41:24 -0800 Subject: semi-unique terminals / was Re: Humpty Dumpty References: Message-ID: <45CB9905.2B7C6829@cs.ubc.ca> Richard, this isn't as exciting as a graphics terminal, but a terminal you might be interested in keeping an eye out for is the Ann Arbor Ambassador. For the most part it's 'just' an ASCII RS-232 terminal with an approx. 14" monitor, but it has the ability to do * 60 * lines on screen. (The number of lines could be keyboard/software selected to values like 24, 36, 48, 60). I think the Ambassador came out circa 1981. In that era it was a great terminal to use for programming, esp. with a windowed text editor like EMACS. By contrast, using a 'normal' 24-line terminal felt like programming through a peep-hole. IIRC, even a few years earlier (late 70's) Ann Arbor made a terminal with 40 lines on screen. Nothing earth-shaking, but somewhat unusual for a basic ASCII terminal in the era of 24-line screens. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Feb 8 15:57:00 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:57:00 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <00bf01c74b34$4bbba600$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <00af01c74b30$0f89c8f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <00bf01c74b34$4bbba600$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <007401c74bcc$0f7b0300$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I can't believe I forgot to mention when you do this, lick your finger before sticking it under the anode cap (it will insulate you from any charge) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:51 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Humpty Dumpty > > Sorry, forgot to add, you should pull it off AS FAST AS > POSSIBLE to pull your arm away from the charge that may arc from it. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:20 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Humpty Dumpty > > > > Start by pulling off the CRT anode, just slip your finger under the > > suction cup and pull, and it should come off. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:47 PM > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Humpty Dumpty > > > > > > Any ideas on how I would go about putting this humpty dumpty back > > > together again? > > > > > > Its a Visual 500 terminal, and its significant because > > > > > > a) in two years of monitoring ebay I haven't seen any other > > > Visual Technology terminals offered > > > > > > b) it has graphics capability (Tektronix 4010 emulation) > > > > > > > > al-1.jpg> > > > > > al-2.jpg> > > > > > al-3.jpg> > > > > > al-4.jpg> > > > > > al-5.jpg> > > > > > al-6.jpg> > > > > > al-7.jpg> > > > > > al-8.jpg> > > > > > al-9.jpg> > > > > > > This thing was so poorly packed that even the spacing > posts in the > > > keyboard were sheared off. The circuit boards don't > appear damaged > > > and amazingly the tube doesn't appear damaged, but > > obviously the case > > > is pretty heavily smashed. The ebay seller accused me of > trying to > > > rip them off by claiming damage and then made a big stink > about me > > > giving them negative feedback. I think there was *one* inflated > > > pillow style spacer on the top of the unit when I opened > it. They > > > also tried to claim that UPS packed it, which seems like utter > > > bullshit. > > > > > > I've been thinking that I might be able to glue enough of > > the pieces > > > of the case back together to get something stable enough to > > have the > > > electronics working again. (I've never attempted to power > > it on and > > > man, was I pissed when I opened up this box!) > > > > > > I suppose it would be prohibitively expensive to try and > > recast a new > > > plastic enclosure for it... > > > -- > > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > > > download > > > > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > > > > > > > > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 16:23:02 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:23:02 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CBA2C6.30808@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can > bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative > feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, > how promptly you paid, etc. That's why, when I need to leave negative feedback, I do it minutes before the 90-day deadline is about to go by. > It would be better if E-bay kept feedback private until both parties had > provided said feedback (at which point both sets of comments would be > public, as they are now). But I can't see that changing any time soon. That's a pretty good idea! Peace... Sridhar From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Feb 8 16:28:51 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:28:51 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> John C. Ellingboe wrote: Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. It's hard as concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of force and I don't want to rip off any components under it. Any ideas? Here's some photos: > > > > > > Thanks, > > Bob Dirt/mud dauber nest... They can be removed with water and a brush but it will take a bit of work.. Chip away what you can safely, use something a little stiff like an acid brush and add a little detergent to the water. What ever they add to the dirt is somewhat water resistant but it will wash away after a bit. ------------------------------------------------ What they add is saliva, which dries extremely hard, like a varnish. What I've done with these nests which I find in the eaves occasionally, is just simply water. If I'm worried about the finish (or in your case, the components) I use a thin sponge taped over the nest. Keep it soaked by watering every day. Usually a week is enough for the nest to fall off. It leaves a ring that I take off with a white (no scratch) Scotch Brite pad and warm water. Billy From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 8 16:42:42 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:42:42 -0600 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <448136.8452.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <448136.8452.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45CBA762.40008@mdrconsult.com> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I had one drive soaking in a bucket for three days now. Still hard as rock. I'm pretty sure the bugs are long dead, probably 15 or more years ago. They are like Jay said, a mass with tubes through it, water poored out of the tubes when I removed the drive from the bucket. I'll try the steam or WD40 ideas this weekend and see what happens. I've rebuilt 2 motorcycles where the damned things had nested in the cylinder fins, and one of them had a nest in a carburetor. Just keep soaking it. Mud daubers secrete a "binder" that's very water-resistant, but it's organic and in the end it's water soluble. I've tried gasoline on them, and it doesn't work as well as water. The steam cleaner suggestion sounds reasonable, if you have access to one. What *will* help a lot, if you have a steady hand, is grinding off as much of the nest as you feel is safe with a Dremel tool. Then what I did was soak it a day or 2, go at it with a hard brush, and soak it some more. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 16:46:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:46:02 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 8, 7 00:32:11 am, Message-ID: <45CB37AA.20235.198E5198@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 20:32, Tony Duell wrote: > In general the storage capactiro is part of the CRT (the anode coating on > the inside, an earthed coating on the outside, and the glass as the > dielectric between them). You shouldn't have any stored high voltages on > the unclipped anode connecotr. True, high-voltage (low current) DC is usually far less dangerous than AC, but there can arise nasty side effects from the involuntary muscle twitch. When I was much younger, I was working on a 3KV transmitter power supply. I *thought* that the bleeder had sufficiently discharged things, but it wasn't so. I brushed the top of an oil capacitor and got nailed. Unfortunately, about 6 inches in back of me was a concrete block wall. The muscle contraction proceeded to slam my elbow with great force into said wall. It hurt like hell for days. I'm fortunate I didn't fracture something. It's truly amazing how many lessons you can learn in the space of a millisecond or so: 1) Never trust a bleeder--they can and do open. 2) Leave plenty of working space around you. 3) Try to work with one hand in a back pocket. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 16:57:58 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:57:58 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <45CBA2C6.30808@gmail.com> References: <45CBA2C6.30808@gmail.com> Message-ID: > That's a pretty good idea! It should be noted that Ebay is overhauling the feedback process. I think it goes into effect in a few months. I do not know many details. -- Will From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 17:02:46 2007 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:02:46 -0600 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <45CAF6E4.28178.18914D97@cclist.sydex.com> References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CAF6E4.28178.18914D97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0702081502r777bed6fs5a35df691e222436@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 8 Feb 2007 at 10:48, der Mouse wrote: > > > A more conventional spelling - probably more useful to anyone looking > > for it online - is "naphtha". At least assuming that's the substance > > you are referring to; the only meaning dictionary.com lists for "nafta" > > is the North American Free Trade Agreement. > > Note that Jim's already tried "naptha"--Goo-gone is mostly naptha, > with a bit of citrus oil in it. If GG doesn't work, lighter > fluid/naptha isn't going to work either. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Try the Waterbase non-VOC version, and wet a paper towel and lay it on the lable or goo for 10 minutes or so, and cover it with something so it does not evaporate. From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Feb 8 17:10:39 2007 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:10:39 +0100 Subject: CD remastering (was Preservation of Correspondence - And Media) In-Reply-To: <45CA2CA0.3060706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2/7/07 8:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The reason early CDs sounded so bad was they often started with the > Master mixdown tapes from the LP, which had a lot of bad juju done > to them due to the limitations of the vinyl medium. > > That's why so much work has been put into remastering from original > multitracks, when possible. Mastering isn't done from multitrack tapes, that's mixing. Mastering is done after the mixdown to stereo (or mono, in the olden days). ,xtG .tsooJ -- When someone asks if you're a god, say "yes." -- Joost van de Griek From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 8 17:16:02 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:16:02 -0500 Subject: Do as I say not as I Do Was:Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702082314.l18NE5AF030149@keith.ezwind.net> The talk of how CRT discharge wont kill you is not always true, It depending on the size of the HV supply and how stupid you are feeling at the moment of the SNAP..... Many years ago, a very stupid Marine stuck a screwdriver in a radar display to discharge the tube, with power still on. He died and the screwdriver planted itself several inches in the prestressed concrete bunker roof. It turns out he had his other hand holding tight to the grounded chassis as he leaned over to discharge it. This was durring Nam and I am sure that one moment of stupidity, just counted as one more war related death. I dont know for sure, but I heard later he got the putple heart for dying in country. What I do know for sure was that those of us still alive and on active duty, working in jobs that exposed us to HV, got the lecture and shown the pictures of the screwdriver. In hopes of reducing future losses, the one hand rule, and red flagging power, became strictly enforced. Then there was the case when dangeling dog tags found a live circuit, he lived but took a lot of crap from the CO about willfull distruction of goverment property. Than again they gave me the same willfull distruction crap when I broke my foot, off duty playing football, untill I pointed out it was jarheads vs squids and we did win even though several people got a bit busted playing a friendly game of tag football for beers and glory. Many years later, while in a rush, with a customer waiting, I turned away from the bench and monitor I was looking at, to get a cliplead to discharge what I was thought was most likely a dead monitor. What I did not realize was one of the other guys I worked with come back from lunch saw the monitor on the bench and me walking away, he knew the customer was waiting and pluged it in to check it out, also in a great hurry. About the time I returned with the cliplead, he had turned to get the HV probe from the other bench. Without thinking I clipped up and the resulting flash and bang bunged up the end on my pocket screwdriver and seperated the wire from one of the clips on the cliplead. Thankfully my old training held true and I had my other hand behind my back where it belonged and not grounded. Oh, It shocked the shit out of me all right, but from the flash and bang followed by smoke, and the other guy screaming what the hell are you doing! not any electrical shock of and apreciable mesurement. I know... I should have seen the power cord plugged back in, but I had only turned my back for a minute or two... MyBad and I was lucky ... Play safe with CRT's and always follow the one hand rule when around HV keep the other hand in your pocket or hook your thumb in your belt, best somewhere in the back, and hold on. Just my $0.02 on the subject ... Back under my rock. The other Bob From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Feb 8 17:17:47 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:17:47 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C6@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: True, high-voltage (low current) DC is usually far less dangerous than AC, but there can arise nasty side effects from the involuntary muscle twitch. When I was much younger, I was working on a 3KV transmitter power supply. I *thought* that the bleeder had sufficiently discharged things, but it wasn't so. I brushed the top of an oil capacitor and got nailed. Unfortunately, about 6 inches in back of me was a concrete block wall. The muscle contraction proceeded to slam my elbow with great force into said wall. It hurt like hell for days. I'm fortunate I didn't fracture something. It's truly amazing how many lessons you can learn in the space of a millisecond or so: 1) Never trust a bleeder--they can and do open. 2) Leave plenty of working space around you. 3) Try to work with one hand in a back pocket. Cheers, Chuck ------------------------------------------- In the Army in 1960, I took radar school at Fort Monmouth, New Jersy. After Basic Electronics, we moved to the TPS-1D radar lab for orientation. 4 hour safety class - what to wear, to do, not do, etc. For example, we all wore a small florescent tube on our shirts. At the end was a tour and the instructor pointed out the various systems and risks. We got to the kylstron modulator and he pointed out with a wooden pencil where the high voltage lead was. Of course the inevitable happened, the arc came up the graphite, and his muscles convulsing threw him into wall. A few of us had sense enough not to laugh. The MSgt in charge of the lab came running over and helped him back on his feet. He asked the instructor what the hell happened? This guy was still in a daze and answered, "I don't know. All I did was touch this point with a pencil like this..." The next day he left for Fort Dix for infantry training. Billy From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 8 17:25:14 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:25:14 -0500 Subject: Anyone have real tech info on HP54201D (Digital Storage Scope) In-Reply-To: <200702081244.l18CihNk017314@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702081244.l18CihNk017314@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <1170977114.17919.12.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 07:45 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Does anyone here have technical information or experience with the HP54201D > Digitizing Storage Oscilloscope. I used to repair them, from time to time. > I'm specifically looking for information/help with the analog triggering circuits. > > I've obtained the HP "service manual" for this scope, and it is absolutely useless, > no schematics, not technical descriptions... Basically, it says "Plug the scope > into your HP scope tester, press GO and replace any boards which are listed > as FAILED". That's the "HP Way" to repair. > This morning, it's been on for over three hours and it's still triggering > continously, even with no signal inputs (leads disconnected). Triggering > calibrations fail consistantly for both channels. So I think it has finally > gone bye-bye. > > When it works, this scope is awesome - I would really like to get it > working again - any information/help would be greatly apprecaited. A quickie: Check the power supplies for ripple. I don't remember the tolerances, but they ARE small, somewhere in the single digit mV range. Ripple on the power supply gets into the triggering circuits, and is taken as input, firing off the trace. It's worth a shot -- it's REALLY easy to check. AC voltmeter to the supply... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 8 17:43:07 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:43:07 +0000 Subject: Do as I say not as I Do Was:Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702082314.l18NE5AF030149@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 8/2/07 23:16, "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > > Play safe with CRT's and always follow the one hand rule when around HV keep > the other hand in your > pocket or hook your thumb in your belt, best somewhere in the back, and hold > on. I know it's not computer related but when I work on 100A domestic electricals I follow the same rules, as do the electrical people from the 'proper' electric company though they stand on cardboard to ensure proper insulation, I know this because I've seen it. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 8 17:31:01 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:31:01 -0500 Subject: Removing labels - lighter fluid In-Reply-To: <2789adda0702080832o322a03e2m12ab2a7d285c6e9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <521041.10388.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <058001c74b3c$d0390ff0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <200702081550.KAA04888@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <2789adda0702080832o322a03e2m12ab2a7d285c6e9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1170977461.17919.14.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 10:32 -0600, Robert Ollerton wrote: > Goof Off and similar products . . . You can SELL that? HA! I'm rich! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 17:56:50 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:56:50 -0500 Subject: Do as I say not as I Do Was:Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702082314.l18NE5AF030149@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702082314.l18NE5AF030149@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Many years ago, a very stupid Marine stuck a screwdriver in a radar display to discharge the tube, with > power still on. He died and the screwdriver planted itself several inches in the prestressed concrete bunker > roof. It turns out he had his other hand holding tight to the grounded chassis as he leaned over to discharge > it. What radar? The supplies in military radar scopes are real ass kickers compared to those found in computer and TV monitors. -- Will From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Feb 8 18:17:56 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:17:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Very old Cdrom mastering In-Reply-To: <45CA9122.9070604@msm.umr.edu> References: <45CA9122.9070604@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, jim wrote: > There is a Young Minds unit on Ebay right now, which was similar to the > first unit I saw at sunsoft in about 1995 or so. > > This unit would have been from 13,000 to 50,000, depending on when you > got hold of it. > > There was a kodak writer unit attached to this to do the writing. > > This particular unit seems to have a wide scsi under the connector > marked "writer" so would most likely not be the same one as the one I > encountered. > > Sunsoft could master the data and drive this unit via the SCSI port, and > this in turn would write the cd. > > Overall the process took probably over 3 hours, but produced a cd which > at the time was something that was pretty new, at least to me. > > I think there is was a Kodak unit recently, but I cannot find it now. > they were packaged in a unit almost as big as this converted desktop. I have one of those very early Kodak writers. I've never tried using it because the firmware is most likely outdated. I can get a photo of it if anyone would like to see it though. -Toth From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 8 18:32:22 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:32:22 -0500 Subject: Do as I say not as I Do Was:Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702090030.l190URN8033770@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:56:50 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >> Many years ago, a very stupid Marine stuck a screwdriver in a radar display to discharge the tube, with >> power still on. He died and the screwdriver planted itself several inches in the prestressed concrete bunker >> roof. It turns out he had his other hand holding tight to the grounded chassis as he leaned over to discharge >> it. >What radar? The supplies in military radar scopes are real ass kickers >compared to those found in computer and TV monitors. >-- >Will Try discharging one of the big 37/38" display monitors, or for that matter my RCA 38" HDTV is a big hunk of glass. It is not only the powersupply, but once it is charged up and turned off, the size of the bang is directly related to the surface area of the glass holding the charge. Big CRT's need higher voltages to operate and have a lot more glass to hold the charge. Those big round radar tubes had a lot of surface area. The only one I ever worked on (outside of AT school) was attached to weapons simulator doing some ECM stuff that I should not get into detail about. Back under my rock .... The other Bob. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 19:43:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:43:24 -0700 Subject: semi-unique terminals / was Re: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:41:24 -0800. <45CB9905.2B7C6829@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Yep, I've been keeping an eye out for the Ann Arbor terminals, but I haven't seen one yet. Aside from the massive players like DEC VT220s, the lesser known and lesser popular terminal models are fairly rare on ebay (and even the popular ones hardly show up at all on VCM; I've looked). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 19:46:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:46:34 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:58:25 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can > bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative > feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, > how promptly you paid, etc. In fact this seller tried to blackmail me saying "if you remove your negative feedback, then I will remove mine, restoring you to 100% positive or neutral feedback" and my response was "fsck you". I'm willing to take retaliatory negative feedback in order to make sure that my negative feedback remains. Yeah, the person was an asshole, but it was clear in the discussions to date that this was already the case and they were going to be assholes no matter what. Assholes need negative feedback left on them. > I think it's certain you'll never get it looking like new. So the aim is > to get it working and safe... Lots of good ideas there Tony, thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 19:48:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:48:41 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:23:02 -0500. <45CBA2C6.30808@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <45CBA2C6.30808 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Tony Duell wrote: > > As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can > > bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative > > feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, > > how promptly you paid, etc. > > That's why, when I need to leave negative feedback, I do it minutes > before the 90-day deadline is about to go by. Oooh, nice idea. I'll remember that for next time, but this is the only case where I've even had to leave negative feedback on ebay. I received another unit that had minor damage, but the person was reasonable about it, so I ended up leaving neutral feedback (I will never leave positive feedback for anyone that sends me goods that aren't properly packed; but will leave neutral if they agree to compensate me for the poor packing -- I ask that shipping fees be refunded.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 19:53:13 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:53:13 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:17:47 -0800. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C6@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C6 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > All I > did was touch this point with a pencil like this..." The next day he = > left > for Fort Dix for infantry training. Did his tube light up? :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 20:16:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:16:17 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45CB68F1.32623.1A4ECDB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 14:28, Billy Pettit wrote: > What they add is saliva, which dries extremely hard, like a varnish. What > I've done with these nests which I find in the eaves occasionally, is just > simply water. If I'm worried about the finish (or in your case, the > components) I use a thin sponge taped over the nest. Keep it soaked by > watering every day. Usually a week is enough for the nest to fall off. It > leaves a ring that I take off with a white (no scratch) Scotch Brite pad and > warm water. I don't have that luxury---the eaves are too far above the ground. A pressure washer does nicely. It may do well on this board, but I'd advise caution. Another idea is to find someone with an ultrasonic cleaning tank--it might well get the blasted thing out. Cheers, Chuck From ken at seefried.com Thu Feb 8 20:37:41 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:37:41 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702090158.l191vjb0033780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702090158.l191vjb0033780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> From: Richard > >> As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can >> bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative >> feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, >> how promptly you paid, etc. > >In fact this seller tried to blackmail me saying "if you remove your >negative feedback, then I will remove mine, > I've not had this, but I've had a *lot* of sellers (almost always big ones) who have sent me mails to the effect "I'll leave you positive feedback after you leave me positive feedback". I don't leave any feedback for them. As a slightly amusing aside, the only negative eBay feedback I have was from this Canadian douchebag dentist-in-training who was pissed I left him neutral (not negative) feedback that it took something like 3 weeks to ship two small packages. Not only did he leave me negative feedback, as some sort of juvenile "payback" attempt, he tried to subscribe me to a couple of dozen random mailing lists. Of course, every one sent me a "reply to this if you want to subscribe" email, which I ignored. Now, as it happens, I was a principle information security architect for a Very Large Telco at the time. There's a certain amount of pull associated with the job. Not being real bright, our eBay dork didn't notice some of the mailing lists involved were hosted at .gov sites. They we're more than willing to supply me with date/time/IP of the attempt to sign me up. Very easy to track back to some jerk in Canada rather than me in sunny Atlanta, GA. This resulted in a few personal calls to his school and ISP to the effect "I'm a senior security guy at Very Large Telco, but I have a little personal issue I was hoping you could help me out with...here's the issue, here's the evidence". They apparently had a really good time dressing this little putz down. Moral of the story...don't try to screw random strangers. You never know what kind of pull they have. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Feb 8 21:00:49 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:00:49 -0800 Subject: eBay - Interesting Item Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3D1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> 6809 Emulator stuck over in ICs. Overpriced but nice looking. 150089377880 From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 21:42:07 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:42:07 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200702090158.l191vjb0033780@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702081942u42df0636o24d66d2117a5f0a6@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/07, Ken Seefried wrote: > > From: Richard > > > >> As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can > >> bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative > >> feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the > discription, > >> how promptly you paid, etc. > > > >In fact this seller tried to blackmail me saying "if you remove your > >negative feedback, then I will remove mine, > > > > I've not had this, but I've had a *lot* of sellers (almost always big > ones) > who have sent me mails to the effect "I'll leave you positive feedback > after > you leave me positive feedback". I don't leave any feedback for them. > > As a slightly amusing aside, the only negative eBay feedback I have was > from > this Canadian douchebag dentist-in-training who was pissed I left him > neutral (not negative) feedback that it took something like 3 weeks to > ship > two small packages. Not only did he leave me negative feedback, as some > sort of juvenile "payback" attempt, he tried to subscribe me to a couple > of > dozen random mailing lists. Of course, every one sent me a "reply to this > if you want to subscribe" email, which I ignored. > > Now, as it happens, I was a principle information security architect for a > Very Large Telco at the time. There's a certain amount of pull associated > with the job. > > Not being real bright, our eBay dork didn't notice some of the mailing > lists > involved were hosted at .gov sites. They we're more than willing to > supply > me with date/time/IP of the attempt to sign me up. Very easy to track > back > to some jerk in Canada rather than me in sunny Atlanta, GA. This resulted > in a few personal calls to his school and ISP to the effect "I'm a senior > security guy at Very Large Telco, but I have a little personal issue I was > hoping you could help me out with...here's the issue, here's the > evidence". > They apparently had a really good time dressing this little putz down. > > Moral of the story...don't try to screw random strangers. You never know > what kind of pull they have. > that's kind of an asinine thing to do... From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 22:05:34 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:05:34 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:37:41 -0500. <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20070209023741.24876.qmail at seefried.com>, "Ken Seefried" writes: > From: Richard > > > >> As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can > >> bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative > >> feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, > >> how promptly you paid, etc. > > > >In fact this seller tried to blackmail me saying "if you remove your > >negative feedback, then I will remove mine, > > > > I've not had this, but I've had a *lot* of sellers (almost always big ones) > who have sent me mails to the effect "I'll leave you positive feedback after > you leave me positive feedback". I don't leave any feedback for them. I don't leave feedback for a purchase until I've received the item and had a chance to inspect it. I've also had one person pester me repeatedly to leave positive feedback. I eventually did, but I notice the guy disappeared from ebay shortly after that -- maybe dealing with people just wasn't his thing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 22:06:31 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:06:31 -0700 Subject: eBay - Interesting Item In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:00:49 -0800. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3D1@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3D1 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > 6809 Emulator stuck over in ICs. Overpriced but nice looking. > > 150089377880 $50 is overpriced for an ICE? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 8 22:05:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 23:05:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: semi-unique terminals / was Re: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <45CB9905.2B7C6829@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45CB9905.2B7C6829@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200702090408.XAA10418@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] the Ann Arbor Ambassador. [...] * 60 * lines on screen. I am reminded of the BitGraph, a rather nice terminal I used at a past job. Unfortunately I didn't get to use it all that much, but I do remember that it had a portrait-aspect-ratio display and downloadable fonts of variable size. Based on memory of the size of the screen and the default font, I'd guess somewhere between 80x40 and 120x75 (colsxrows). By default, of course. Yes, true to the name, it did graphics. I don't recall details. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 8 22:12:40 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:12:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Feb 8, 7 09:37:41 pm" Message-ID: <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> > I've not had this, but I've had a *lot* of sellers (almost always big ones) > who have sent me mails to the effect "I'll leave you positive feedback after > you leave me positive feedback". I don't leave any feedback for them. Right there with you. If I'm buying, I should be getting positive feedback for timely payment, not as a quid pro quo arrangement. Similarly, when I sell, I give positive feedback at the time the money is received, assuming it is received in a timely fashion. However, I notice that despite all the mildly threatening messages I get from sellers who never leave feedback for me about why I don't leave feedback for them, they've never left me negative feedback as a result probably *because* I can just do the same to them. And I'm such a potential jerk that I just might. ;) I actually got a mail from one of those eBay Power Slutters that said they didn't leave people positive feedback at all anymore, so don't expect it. And this is the kind of environment we have to contend with, sigh. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Look busy. Jesus is coming soon. ------------------------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 8 22:14:28 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:14:28 -0700 Subject: semi-unique terminals / was Re: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:05:50 -0500. <200702090408.XAA10418@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200702090408.XAA10418 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > > [...] the Ann Arbor Ambassador. [...] * 60 * lines on screen. > > I am reminded of the BitGraph, a rather nice terminal I used at a past > job. [...] Yes, I've been looking for BitGraph terminals too ... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 8 23:01:58 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:01:58 -0800 Subject: eBay - Interesting Item Message-ID: <45CC0046.8020702@bitsavers.org> > $50 is overpriced for an ICE? It's useless without the CPU pod. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 8 23:06:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:06:38 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> References: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Feb 8, 7 09:37:41 pm", <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 20:12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Right there with you. If I'm buying, I should be getting positive feedback > for timely payment, not as a quid pro quo arrangement. Similarly, when I > sell, I give positive feedback at the time the money is received, assuming > it is received in a timely fashion. The business with feedback isn't symnetric. When a seller gets my money, that should be good enough. Prompt payment is the extent of your responsibility as a buyer. However, a seller has a duty to get the goods to you as represented in a timely manner and in good condition. A buyer's opinion of a seller carries much more weight than the converse. I once had a problem with a seller; the item he sold me was stated to have a capability that it didn't. When I asked for a refund and return shipping, he stated that it wasn't his problem--that he was just a carry-in seller and posted what he was told. When I asked for the name of his customer, he refused. When I told him that if I were stuck with the item, he'd get negative feedback. He countered with saying that if I gave him negative feedback, he would return the favor. I asked eBay about this and they stated that this was not "feedback extortion" and was completely legit. I was also told that many sellers open new accounts when they acquire a certain amount of negative feedback and this was completely okay with eBay. I was surprised at the cavalier attitude. Had I known about the 90- day feedback limit, I would have used it. Someone needs to set up a feedback sniping service, IMOHO. Ebay rules seem to be capriciously enforced. I've received some great deals from courteous sellers who have had their account terminated for a minor infraction of the rules. OTOH, there are big sellers who hide behind Square Trade and routinely deliver bad service without so much as a twitch from eBay management. Ebay is a shark tank and you do yourself a favor by playing the game with an appropriately paranoid attitude. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Feb 8 23:33:57 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:33:57 -0800 Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive Message-ID: > Message: 23 > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:27:00 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20070208122504.I35814 at shell.lmi.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: >> with an external 400 or 800k floppy. The SuperDrive (original >> SuperDrive, not the "new" CD/DVD one) [present on all Macs since the >> IIx, many IIs and some SEs (SE FDHD)] has the smaller head size and >> your older machine won't read it properly. WRT the swapping- can't > > There is a completely different recording method (MFM v Mac GCR). > > What are the dimensions of the different size heads? > Not sure about dimensions- the 800/400k drives I think share common dimensions with the PC-esque 720k drives, and the 1.4 SuperDrive is known to be the same dimension as the 1.44 MB PC mechanism. It was big issue around the time System 7 came out- if you put a 800k diskette in a System 7 machine with a SuperDrive the desktop file would be rewritten unless the disk was locked. If you then put the disk in a 800k System 6 drive it would indicate it as corrupt (you could run it through Disk First Aid to get it back) because of the head sizes (similar to the problem with 5.25" DD floppies in the PC AT) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 8 23:36:34 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:36:34 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Feb 8, 7 09:37:41 pm", <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CC0862.5070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Ebay is a shark tank and you do yourself a favor by playing the game > with an appropriately paranoid attitude. I don't trust ebay, because you can't find real people to help you. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 8 23:46:12 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:46:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070208214128.H64750@shell.lmi.net> > >> with an external 400 or 800k floppy. The SuperDrive (original > >> SuperDrive, not the "new" CD/DVD one) [present on all Macs since the > >> IIx, many IIs and some SEs (SE FDHD)] has the smaller head size and > >> your older machine won't read it properly. WRT the swapping- can't > > > > There is a completely different recording method (MFM v Mac GCR). > > > > What are the dimensions of the different size heads? On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Scott Quinn wrote: > Not sure about dimensions- the 800/400k drives I think share common > dimensions with the PC-esque 720k drives, and the 1.4 SuperDrive is > known to be the same dimension as the 1.44 MB PC mechanism. PC 720K and 1.4M drives have the same size head. > It was big issue around the time System 7 came out- if you put a 800k > diskette in a System 7 machine with a SuperDrive the desktop file would > be rewritten unless the disk was locked. If you then put the disk in a > 800k System 6 drive it would indicate it as corrupt (you could run it > through Disk First Aid to get it back) because of the head sizes > (similar to the problem with 5.25" DD floppies in the PC AT) THAT was an issue with a different width and number of cylinders/tracks per side. (40 cylinders/tracks per side at 48tpi V 80 cylinders/tracks per side at 96 tpi) PC 720K, Mac 400k/800k, PC 1.4M, Mac 1.4M disks all have 80 cylinders/80 tracks per side. all at 135 tpi. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 8 23:47:17 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:47:17 -0800 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C6@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: >From: "Billy Pettit" > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >True, high-voltage (low current) DC is usually far less dangerous >than AC, but there can arise nasty side effects from the involuntary >muscle twitch. > >When I was much younger, I was working on a 3KV transmitter power >supply. I *thought* that the bleeder had sufficiently discharged >things, but it wasn't so. I brushed the top of an oil capacitor and >got nailed. > >Unfortunately, about 6 inches in back of me was a concrete block >wall. The muscle contraction proceeded to slam my elbow with great >force into said wall. It hurt like hell for days. I'm fortunate I >didn't fracture something. > >It's truly amazing how many lessons you can learn in the space of a >millisecond or so: > >1) Never trust a bleeder--they can and do open. >2) Leave plenty of working space around you. >3) Try to work with one hand in a back pocket. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi I was once tuning a Racal tube receiver IF strip ( as I recall they were something like 115Mhz. You were suppose to use an orange stick but they were stiff and needed more effort. I would use a metal screw driver and remove it each time to check the meter to see if I was getting better or worse. I'd forgotten that the last one to tune was connected to the plate of the mixer. It was 275V as I recall. I threw the screw drive across the room behind me and it stuck into the wall up to the handle. I had to lay down for a rest after that and think about how to comple the tuning. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ >From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards? http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 8 23:52:45 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:52:45 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070208161600.05188868@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >From: Roger Merchberger > >Rumor has it that Bob Rosenbloom may have mentioned these words: >>I had one drive soaking in a bucket for three days now. Still hard as >>rock. I'm pretty sure the bugs are long dead, probably 15 or more years >>ago. They are like Jay said, a mass with tubes through it, water poored >>out of the tubes when I removed the drive from the bucket. I'll try the >>steam or WD40 ideas this weekend and see what happens. > >Possibly something stronger but still innocuous might work... say, >isoprop[ano|y]l? Naphtha (lighter fluid - but get it by the quart/litre at >the hardware store instead - much cheaper that way! ;-) might also work, >but that might leave a film that could be tougher to clean off >afterwards... > >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > Hi Since it is bug based, shelac thinner might do the trick. Now to find some of that??? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards? http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 23:55:38 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:55:38 -0500 Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <20070208214128.H64750@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070208214128.H64750@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > PC 720K, Mac 400k/800k, PC 1.4M, Mac 1.4M disks all have 80 cylinders/80 > tracks per side. all at 135 tpi. And Amiga 880K (just at 11 sectors of 512 bytes per cylinder due to the short sector-to-sector gap as a consequence of treating the entire track (vs a single sector) as a writable entity) as well as the 150RPM 1760K disks (Amiga high density). All the same track density - just different amounts of data per track. -ethan From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Feb 8 23:58:04 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:58:04 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Feb 8, 7 09:37:41 pm", <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CC0D6C.7010805@pacbell.net> > On 8 Feb 2007 at 20:12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Right there with you. If I'm buying, I should be getting positive feedback >> for timely payment, not as a quid pro quo arrangement. Similarly, when I >> sell, I give positive feedback at the time the money is received, assuming >> it is received in a timely fashion. I have a different opinion. I buy 20x what I sell, but when I sell, I'm leaving feedback on the transaction, not just whether I got the money. Say I advertise XYZ in good, but not perfect condition. Buyer sends me money. Do I immediately send feedback? No, because we aren't done. Say I ship it and the buyer says: Hey, stupid, XYZ isn't in perfect condition. I want my money back! I'd regret if I'd already left feedback in that case, or in the case where I ship it and the receiver claims they never received the item. I do agree with the part that feedback shouldn't be contingent on the feedback of the other party, but sending feedback half way through the deal seems like a bad idea. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 00:03:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:03:55 -0700 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:36:34 -0700. <45CC0862.5070909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <45CC0862.5070909 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > I don't trust ebay, because you can't find real people to help you. In other words, its just like a swap meet or any other deal between you and some person out there on the net. Honestly, I don't know why people expect an ebay transaction to have the same level of confidence as buying new merchandise from a retail store. Its a glorified swap meet. There is little recourse for you, short of small claims court, if things go bad. Having said that, I'm generally happy with my ebay transactions. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 00:12:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:12:35 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Feb 8, 7 09:37:41 pm", <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CC10D3.2030505@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Ebay rules seem to be capriciously enforced. I've received some > great deals from courteous sellers who have had their account > terminated for a minor infraction of the rules. OTOH, there are big > sellers who hide behind Square Trade and routinely deliver bad > service without so much as a twitch from eBay management. I'm almost getting to the point where I don't even consider auctions from Square Trade sellers. It's almost a license to fsck you. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 9 00:22:20 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 01:22:20 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty References: <20070209023741.24876.qmail@seefried.com> <200702090412.l194CfY4033746@floodgap.com> <45CB90DE.1499.1AEAC270@cclist.sydex.com> <45CC10D3.2030505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00fa01c74c12$a79d61a0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:12 AM Subject: Re: Humpty Dumpty > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Ebay rules seem to be capriciously enforced. I've received some > > great deals from courteous sellers who have had their account > > terminated for a minor infraction of the rules. OTOH, there are big > > sellers who hide behind Square Trade and routinely deliver bad > > service without so much as a twitch from eBay management. > > I'm almost getting to the point where I don't even consider auctions > from Square Trade sellers. > > It's almost a license to fsck you. > > Peace... Sridhar I would think Ebay loves the large sellers and hates the smaller ones, when you get paid by the auction listing volume is king! From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 9 00:40:24 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:40:24 -0600 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <45CB68F1.32623.1A4ECDB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45CB68F1.32623.1A4ECDB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CC1758.3040105@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't have that luxury---the eaves are too far above the ground. A > pressure washer does nicely. It may do well on this board, but I'd > advise caution. Another idea is to find someone with an ultrasonic > cleaning tank--it might well get the blasted thing out. OK, I'm curious about the ultrasound idea. Have you done this successfully with electronics? The reason I ask is that ultrasound turns a lot of semiprecious stones to mush. I would have been afraid that ceramic components (and electrolytic capacitors, for that matter) wouldn't survive ultrasonic cleaning. Doc From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 9 00:58:44 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:58:44 -0500 Subject: semi-unique terminals / was Re: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1171004324.22070.3.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 18:43 -0700, Richard wrote: > Yep, I've been keeping an eye out for the Ann Arbor terminals, but I > haven't seen one yet. Where I work has several Ann Arbor terminals, being used on a daily basis. They might be willing to consider selling them, if the sale came with a suitable replacement, which would include a cheesy old PC machine. The difficult bit is that the replacement must fit on a cart about 11-1/2 inches wide (this is just from visual memory. If this goes further, I'll measure. I'll ask if you'd like. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 01:44:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:44:20 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <45CC1758.3040105@mdrconsult.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45CB68F1.32623.1A4ECDB9@cclist.sydex.com>, <45CC1758.3040105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45CBB5D4.18746.1B7B215D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 0:40, Doc Shipley wrote: OK, I'm curious about the ultrasound idea. Have you done this > successfully with electronics? > > The reason I ask is that ultrasound turns a lot of semiprecious > stones to mush. I would have been afraid that ceramic components (and > electrolytic capacitors, for that matter) wouldn't survive ultrasonic > cleaning. No, not with electronics. Ultrasonic is very big in brass musical instrument repair, however. Some shops (not mine) have tanks large enough for a large sousaphone. The problem with brass wind instruments is that calcium salts from saliva eventually crystallize in the innards of an instrument and then proceed to leach the zinc out of the brass, leading to the dreaded "red rot"--essentially very porous copper that leaks air. At that point, repairs become very expensive. The tranditional way of handling deposits is called a "chem clean". Usually a bath of muriatic or chromic acid that acts on the calcium deposits faster than it acts on the brass. Ultrasonic cleaning is being touted as an acid-free way to accomplish the same thing. Many swear by it--but then, many swear by cryogenic treatment of their instruments to improve response. Snake oil exists in all fields. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Feb 8 14:28:38 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:28:38 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty Message-ID: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Humpty Dumpty > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:50:16 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 2/8/07, Richard wrote: >> As near as I can tell, there are like 3 people who care about >> terminals: myself, Paul Shuford (who is the only source of online >> information about many kinds of terminals) and Paul Williams (who runs >> and maintains vt100.net). > >4. I have a collection of terminals, 90% of which are various DEC >models (VT-50 through about VT-320), but a couple of Tektronix, couple >of Planar, Heathkit, CiTOH, etc. I have VT100 series and VT320 and VT340 along with a VT1200. >> Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character >> capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. > >I'd have to check the stack, but the Tektronix terminals are color >graphics + text (local printer port, etc.), and of course, the VT241 >is color graphics + text, as is the DEC GIGI. I agree - they are >rare. Rarer are the applications to drive them. I don't know of many >color Tek apps, but there were quite a few for the GIGI under TOPS-20. Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). >> Terminals that have 3D graphics builtin are even scarcer than that. > >Indeed. I don't know if I've ever seen one. > >> The Visual >> 500 therefore is of interest to me because it is older and has >> graphics. (Not all Visual terminals have graphics, but the 500 does.) > >Interesting. Shame the seller was too cheap/ignorant to package >things properly. I have to wonder how he got them to accept it - I've >been to the UPS depot and seen them turn away customers with boxes >that had heavy, shifting loads (improperly packaged computer bits). The V500 and others postdate the VT220 and it was the VT100 and VT220 that were a strong influence on the high end ANSI compatable terminal market. Even the Heath H19 has VT52/ANSI(VT100 subset) compatable modes. Allison From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu Feb 8 16:46:13 2007 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:46:13 -0600 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 Message-ID: All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare VT100 analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the last piece I need to get my VT100 working again. Julian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 01:53:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:53:09 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070208161600.05188868@mail.30below.com>, Message-ID: <45CBB7E5.17727.1B833510@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2007 at 21:52, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Since it is bug based, shelac thinner might do the trick. Now > to find some of that??? > Dwight That's easy--shellac thinner is nothing more or less than pure alcohol. Some folks use ethyl alcohol (denatured); others like methyl (wood) alcohol. Rubbing (ethyl, not isopropyl) alcohol wouldn't be any good, because it contains water, which will cloud a shellac finish. Some "traditional" woodworkers make their own shellac by purchasing dry lac chips and dissolving them in alcohol. They claim the result has a brighter, clearer finish than the usual stuff in a can. You'll almost never find a luthier, for example, using canned shellac--he most often has his private concoction which he keeps very secret. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 02:11:52 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:11:52 -0700 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:46:13 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "Wolfe, Julian " writes: > All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare VT100 > analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the last piece I need to > get my VT100 working again. What's the Elston variant? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rickb at bensene.com Fri Feb 9 02:16:15 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:16:15 -0800 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] Message-ID: >> I don't think Tektronix ever made a terminal that wasn't graphics >> capable :-) and when they went to raster displays from storage scopes, >> I believe they were all color capable. >I remember at least on counter-example, the 4025. It was a >mono raster unit. We had a 4025 at the research lab of the >first company I worked for out of college. It was connected to >one of those electrostatic printers. We drove it from a VAX 11/750 >running BSD4.2 and later 4.3. There was also a 4023 "non-graphic" terminal, significantly prior to the 4025. It used SSI and MSI TTL logic, early IC-RAM (don't know if it was dynamic or static), and a MOS character generator. The CRT used a rather slow-responding white phosphor that made it a little difficult to read when it scrolled. When I was a Systems Operator (as they were called in those days) of Tektronix' Scientific Computer Center Control Data Cyber 73, a Tek 4023 terminal was situated next to the big dual vector CRT console. This terminal was logged into KRONOS (the timesharing operating system that ran on Tek's Cyber 73) as an administrative user that would pop up messages with user requests to do things like mount tapes, and other messages from users, and the operator could respond through this terminal. The 4025 came significantly later, and I believe, was microprocessor controlled. The coolest Tektronix terminal, if you ask me, was the original Tek 4002. It did use Tek's famous DVST (Direct View Storage Tube) display that was really made famous by the 4010. The 4002 (and slightly updated) 4002A were big terminals, with a "drawer" packed full of electronics. The coolest part was the "^G" (bell), which was a really nice tone generator. I can't remember if it was a hack, or production, but there was an escape sequence that you could send to change the frequency of the tone emitted with control-G was received. With this, people had written some programs on some a DEC PDP-8 (it may have been a PDP 8/I IIRC) that could play music on the terminal, while drawing some graphics on the screen at the same time. There also was a 'write through' mode, again, not sure if it was a hack, or part of the production terminals, that would (within the limitations of the RS-232 port) could do simple dynamic (non-stored) vector graphics. There was a little game, again hosted on the PDP-8 machine, that would play a game where two tanks opposed each other with interposing landcape (hills or elevation changes) and players would take turns aiming their gun, and shooting a shell at the opposing tank. I also recall that for high-speed use, there was a direct DMA parallel interface that would hook to a PDP-11 (Unibus) that allowed some actually fairly high-performance vector graphics on the 4002. Would love to find a 4002 or 4002A around somewhere. Would also love to find one of those 4023's -- it really was a great old terminal. For a time, I had one of them at home, hooked up to an acoustic coupler and I could dial into the Cyber at 1200 baud, and do work from home. Those were good old days! Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 9 02:16:48 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 03:16:48 -0500 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <537090C5-F088-459B-8345-3431D16536E9@neurotica.com> On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:42 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that > some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not > sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. > It's hard as concrete! I can chip it but it takes quite a bit of > force and I don't want to rip off any components under it. Any > ideas? Here's some photos: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy2.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy3.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/1kx768/cc_flpy4.JPG I live in southwest Florida...we get those blasted things on the outside of our houses down here. I have no idea what they are, but they are indeed difficult to remove. The standard solution is to use a pressure washer. I doubt that'd be appropriate for a PCB though. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 02:40:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:40:18 -0700 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:28:38 -0500. <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, Allison writes: > Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, > VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. VT100 docs (user guide and technical guide, both on bitsavers) do not mention sixel graphics at all. Paul Shuford's site has some discussion of what "sixel graphics" means and apparently different people use the term loosely to describe different things. The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100. The VT220 Programmer Reference Manual also does not mention sixel graphics, but you can download a font glyph definition and presumably with the right custom font you could display some sort of image, but its not "sixel graphics". The VT320, like the VT200 series, also had user-definable character sets. You can "fake" some graphics this way like you can with the VT220. See . I know all these DEC terminal models can become confusing, but trust me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics. gives these models as supporting graphics: VT55: primitive graphics capability VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability VT125: Graphics produced as a separate display from the text. (I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor required?) VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics VT241: Color ReGIS graphics VT330: B&W ReGIS graphics VT340: Color ReGIS graphics -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri Feb 9 05:06:02 2007 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 03:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: SunOs tapes Message-ID: <702160.60324.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Looking for any original SunOS tapes (any machine) or a 4.x era Sun 3 CD. Must be original tape/CD. Format etc doesnt matter as I can cope with just about anything. Also - if anyone is looking for the fairly difficult to find fuses that you get in Sun 3's I have a few spares available (no charge, just postage). I've blown a few of these fuses over the years, usually caused by the keyboard plug moving in the socket while the Sun is on - and I've found them awkward to find. Cheers Ian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 07:01:44 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:01:44 -0500 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the varient matter. IIRC, they're equivalent factory replacements. I've got a couple of video boards. I fix the failed ones myself. The biggest failure is the cap and diode at the center of the video board (don't remember if that's the Elston or the Ball), $2.00 in Radio Shack some solder and it's fixed. Bill On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: > > > In article < > D0A43323EEC4C046801C1B71873472030186633F at HERMES2K3.CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, > "Wolfe, Julian " writes: > > > All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare VT100 > > analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the last piece I need to > > get my VT100 working again. > > What's the Elston variant? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From pechter at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 07:05:10 2007 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:05:10 -0500 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: References: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: You're correct on the graphics support. The only graphics in the VT100/VT101/VT102 were the DEC graphics line drawing set -- if you can call that graphics. Bill On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: > > > In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, > Allison writes: > > > Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, > > VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). > > Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. > > VT100 docs (user guide and technical guide, both on bitsavers) do not > mention sixel graphics at all. Paul Shuford's site has some > discussion of what "sixel graphics" means and apparently different > people use the term loosely to describe different things. > > The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100. > > The VT220 Programmer Reference Manual also does not mention sixel > graphics, but you can download a font glyph definition and presumably > with the right custom font you could display some sort of image, but > its not "sixel graphics". > > The VT320, like the VT200 series, also had user-definable character > sets. You can "fake" some graphics this way like you can with the > VT220. See . > > I know all these DEC terminal models can become confusing, but trust > me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics. > gives these models as supporting > graphics: > > VT55: primitive graphics capability > VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability > > VT125: Graphics produced as a separate display from the text. > (I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor > required?) > VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics > VT241: Color ReGIS graphics > VT330: B&W ReGIS graphics > VT340: Color ReGIS graphics > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 9 08:12:59 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:12:59 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> I really need to find the time to write a Linux util to suck tar data >> off DLT and checksum file-by-file to test backups; currently I >> restore the whole archive and then use find/cksum/diff to check >> against source data, but it's annoying needing that extra disk >> capacity just for the sake of backup testing. > > I wrote my own version of tar, which among other things has a mode in > which it reads a tape as if to restore, but, instead of restoring, it > compares what it finds on the tape with what it finds in the > filesystem. Well I *think* that's what the diff/compare option is supposed to do (or maybe W/verify, can't remember which), but unfortunately short of looking in the source code itself I couldn't find any documentation on exactly how the comparison is done (and quite possibly it differs between tar implementations anyway). In theory it *should* be a byte-for-byte comparison, but unless the docs say so we don't know that for sure... > It may well turn out to be not what you want, but it might be worth at > least a look-in. If it seems close but not quite there, I'll be happy > to correspond about it Do you happen to know if GNU tar adds extensions that aren't in your version (or "original tar", whatever that may mean)? I suppose I'd like to stick to GNU or GNU-compatible tools where possible... > (though in your case it might be a bit, um, > interesting, since it appears you use both Yahoo for your email and are > in the UK). Well I'm in the US at the moment ;) If anyone has any suggestions for good ISP-independent email services then let me know; the reason I've used yahoo for years is so that I don't get tied to a single ISP for receiving email, but there are doubtless better offerings around... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 9 08:16:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:16:57 -0600 Subject: has anyone constructed 3D models of vintage gear? In-Reply-To: <45C3B48B.8040108@gifford.co.uk> References: <45C3B48B.8040108@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <45CC8259.9040207@yahoo.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > Richard wrote: >> The subject pretty much says it all. > > I have a 3D model of the BBC Micro that I did in Google > Sketchup. I don't think I ever replied to this... I did the same thing (only using 3D Studio) a couple of years back. It wasn't very detailed though as I was modeling some museum desk layouts at the time, so just needed some simple micros [1] to scatter around the place :-) [1] can't remember what others I did now... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 9 08:26:30 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:26:30 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702062155.l16LtgOC088310@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702062155.l16LtgOC088310@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45CC8496.6000805@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I remember CD caddies :) > > I recall back at secondary school in my first > year there (year 7 for UK'ers), in 1990/1, that > the new computer in the library used CD's > which were in see through plastic. I suppose I was at college about that time, and we had one system in the entire place with a CDROM attached. We were pretty much all on Apple equipment (a few stray Pluses, but mainly LC II and III machines), but the CDROM machine was a Goldstar PC - I don't recall the name of the CDROM unit though, which was an external caddy-based type. There was still a Domesday system [1] around, incidentally (the college historically had done a lot of user testing for Acorn), plus my IBM PC and XT came from there when I unearthed them in a cupboard. [1] I'd forgotten about that; I should give them a prod and see what happened to it... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 9 08:32:43 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:32:43 -0600 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200702070001.l1701TFS093866@keith.ezwind.net> <45C91EBB.1070708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45CC860B.7000309@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > I am still recovering from the Beatles invasion from > this side of the pond. Do you still have a wide selection > of music CD's or have they like the USA only the NEW > fad music in stock? Most of the independent music stores have died out, sadly. Naturally the big players stock music that will make them the most money, rather than the independents which often seemed to choose half their stock based on simply trying to provide something unusual for people to listen to. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 9 08:38:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:38:38 -0600 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CC876E.8080204@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Can't say the same for *some* players I've owned (thinks of Magnavox crap >> in wastebasket about three months later just after the warranty expired). > > IIRC Magnavox are essentially Philips. Interesting - I didn't know that. The Magnavox stuff I've seen in the US seems to have less build quality than similar Philips items from Europe, but that's possibly a reflection on US consumer electronic/electrical equipment in general rather than any kind of corporate failing. > In the UK, Philips CD players were > knwon for developing dry joiuts. A complete re-solder would get them > going again and then they'd essentially go for ever... The soldering is awful in their Laserdisc players of old; sounds like things didn't improve when they started making CD players... cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 08:56:41 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:56:41 -0700 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:05:10 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Bill Pechter" writes: > You're correct on the graphics support. > The only graphics in the VT100/VT101/VT102 were the DEC graphics line > drawing set -- if you can call that graphics. I don't know that I even call the "waveform" thing in the VT125 graphics because it doesn't let you arbitrarily mess with all the dots. The soft-font thing is also a hack, and while cool, is not what I would call "graphics". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Feb 9 09:26:20 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:26:20 -0500 Subject: Anyone have real tech info on HP54201D (Digital Storage Scope) In-Reply-To: <1170977114.17919.12.camel@linux.site> References: <200702081244.l18CihNk017314@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200702091525.l19FPaSF018549@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Warren, > I used to repair them, from time to time. Thanks for responding - thats good news. Do you have any more detailed technical information than the ... > > I've obtained the HP "service manual" for this scope, and it is absolutely useless, > > no schematics, not technical descriptions... Basically, it says "Plug the scope > > into your HP scope tester, press GO and replace any boards which are listed > > as FAILED". > > That's the "HP Way" to repair. Yeah, wunnerful... I suppose it's great for current products if you have the HP service tools, and you can still get board replacements. Not a cheap way to repair, but perhaps when a customer pays $10,000 for a scope, he doesn't mind paying for whole boards (I'd guess they wern't all that cheap). Be nice to have some real service information for the times when board level repair is needed however ... > > This morning, it's been on for over three hours and it's still triggering > > continously, even with no signal inputs (leads disconnected). Triggering > > calibrations fail consistantly for both channels. So I think it has finally > > gone bye-bye. > > > > When it works, this scope is awesome - I would really like to get it > > working again - any information/help would be greatly apprecaited. > > A quickie: Check the power supplies for ripple. I don't remember > the tolerances, but they ARE small, somewhere in the single digit mV > range. Ripple on the power supply gets into the triggering circuits, > and is taken as input, firing off the trace. It's worth a shot -- it's > REALLY easy to check. AC voltmeter to the supply... Thanks for the info. I checked the supplied, they look pretty good and are within tolerance for DC voltages, I couldn't find a spec in the service manual for the ripple - Here's what I measured, some of them are beyond a single digit mV reading. Supply Spec.(V) Measured(V) Ripple(mV) ------------------------------------------------ 15 14.25 15.75 15.12 15.8 12 11.4 12.6 12.19 5.7 5 4.75 5.25 4.99 2.8 -2.4 -2.16 -2.64 -2.52 4.9 -5.2 -5.2 -5.7 -5.41 13.0 -12 -11.4 -12.6 -12.02 3.7 While I was measuring the power, the scope started to work correctly again - probably only after about 5-10 mins of power-on, where yesterday I let it sit for several hours... The readings did not change significantly from when it was not working to when it was working. Voltage and ripple were about the same in both cases. When it's not working, it triggers constantly on all sources - setting the trigger range all the way to the top doesn't stop it from triggering, however setting it to large negative values will usually stop triggering. At this point, applying a signal can make it trigger, however the trigger points appear to have no correlation to the input signal. When it starts working, it's not a gradual shift - it just "suddenly" starts responding to normal trigger levels. It doesn't seem to me like a symptom of a slight change in power supply ripple... I'm thinking that something in oscillating that shouldn't be ... with no input source the trigger should be at a constant level, presenting no edges - the fact that I can set the range over such a large area suggests that there is a fairly big waveform "somewhere" along the way. Problem is the analog board is a big board with several large chips that I don't have any information on - I can see that the external trigger goes to it's own and somewhat simpler area of the board, so I will probably begin by trying to follow that through, but I imagine I will have quite a ways to go since the problem is deep enough in that it affects all trigger sources (except the digital analyzer trigger - that seems to always work, but I'd guess it doesn't come into the mix until some time after all the analog stuff has turned digital)... having some information on signal paths would be very useful ... anything you can provide would be MOST appreciated. Regards, and thanks again. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 09:41:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:41:31 -0500 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: > I don't know that I even call the "waveform" thing in the VT125 > graphics because it doesn't let you arbitrarily mess with all the > dots. The soft-font thing is also a hack, and while cool, is not what > I would call "graphics". The VT125 has full-on ReGIS graphics. It's the VT105 that has "waveform" graphics. The VT55 and VT105 don't let you draw arbitrary images, but they do give you pixel-resolution plots, either as a waveform or a bargraph. Handy if you want to plot functions (i.e. one Y and only one Y value per X), but not what we are used to calling graphics. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 10:06:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:06:01 -0500 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: References: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: > The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100. Right. I think the VT125 could also do VT55/VT105-style waveform graphics as well, but I'm not positive about that. > I know all these DEC terminal models can become confusing, but trust > me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics. > gives these models as supporting > graphics: > > VT55: primitive graphics capability > VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability > Nice writeup on the waveform graphics there. > VT125: Graphics produced as a separate display from the text. > (I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor > required?) There are BNCs on the back of the VT125 - I have never owned one, but I _think_ you can display graphics in shades of gray on the internal tube, but for color, you have to have an external color monitor. > VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics > VT241: Color ReGIS graphics For the unaware, the VT240 and VT241 are composed of two elements, a slab with all the terminal boards, and an external B&W (VR201) or color (VR241) monitor. It is entirely unlike the VT220 which is of the same generation, but which has the monitor and terminal boards in one housing. If you have a VR201 mono monitor (DECmate II/III, Rainbow, Pro 3xx...) and a VR241 (Rainbow) and one VT240 slab, you can switch your arrangement between being a VT240 and VT241. So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3" marked VT240 or VT241 at a hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an LK201 keyboard, find/buy a video cable with a DA15 on one end and either a DA15 (VR201) or BNCs (VR241) on the other, and add a monitor. Given that these monitors don't do anything screwy with the video, one could make a cable or cable adapter and use a mono RS-170 monitor as a substitute VR201 or use any sync-on-green 15KHz color monitor as a VR241. I think it was common in the day to use a Barco monitor rather than a DEC monitor in a VT241. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 10:46:42 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:46:42 -0700 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:41:31 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > The VT125 has full-on ReGIS graphics. It's the VT105 that has > "waveform" graphics. Oops, yes, you're correct and I should have said VT105/VT55. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Feb 9 11:16:17 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:16:17 -0600 Subject: Copying a Mac Disk with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <200702081756.l18Hu0Pd025862@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702081756.l18Hu0Pd025862@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 11:56 -0600 2/8/07, Scott wrote: >but the default >gives you lots of wrist exercise even on a 4MB Mac SE/800k. My favorite sniglet for this is, "MacElbow". -- From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 9 11:24:03 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:24:03 -0600 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] Message-ID: <20070209172403.IJIL8793.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Rick Bensene wrote: > The coolest Tektronix terminal, if you ask me, was the original Tek > 4002. > ... > There also was a 'write through' mode, > again, not sure if it was a hack, or part of the production terminals, > that would (within the limitations of the RS-232 port) could do simple > dynamic (non-stored) vector graphics. Don't know about the 4002, but I'm pretty sure it was standard on the 4014. We had one in college and I wrote a little thing that drew a wireframe pyramid in writethrough mode. You gave it a file of x, y, z rotations and it drew the animated pyramid. We were running it on a VAX 11/780 running VMS. Of course, when someone else got the CPU, the screen blanked. (If you didn't rewrite the lines fast enough, they went away.) So this friend of mine who was employed by the computing center (as was I) as an operator got this "brilliant" idea. We had privileges to create queues. So he created one with real-time priority so that it wouldn't blank out. It worked in that the animation was quite smooth. But from the perspective of everyone else on the system, it had locked solid. We did finally get logged in and killed the queue, but as I recall it took about 30 to 45 minutes. BLS From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 9 11:47:32 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 09, 2007 08:12:59 AM Message-ID: <200702091747.l19HlWHE020024@onyx.spiritone.com> > Do you happen to know if GNU tar adds extensions that aren't in your version > (or "original tar", whatever that may mean)? I suppose I'd like to stick to > GNU or GNU-compatible tools where possible... Unless a given systems tar *is* GNU tar or based on it, you can pretty much guarentee GNU tar has features it doesn't. Which isn't to say that GNU tar is perfect, I know there are some bugs in it that we've run into, but can't remember what they are at the moment. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 11:55:47 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:55:47 -0700 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:24:03 -0600. <20070209172403.IJIL8793.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: In article <20070209172403.IJIL8793.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net at mail.bellsouth.net>, "Brian L. Stuart" writes: > Rick Bensene wrote: > > The coolest Tektronix terminal, if you ask me, was the original Tek > > 4002. > > ... > > There also was a 'write through' mode, > > again, not sure if it was a hack, or part of the production terminals, > > that would (within the limitations of the RS-232 port) could do simple > > dynamic (non-stored) vector graphics. > > Don't know about the 4002, but I'm pretty sure it was standard > on the 4014. [...] It is also on the 4010. The 4010 and the 4014 have a card cage into which you can insert your own cards. I've had the idea to create a PC system by putting an entire PC on to the plugin card and using the terminal as the display. There's easily room to mount a hard drive inside the cabinet :-). At the very least it would be interesting to add a USB port to the Tektronix this way to give it a higher serial transfer rate. The number and complexity of the dynamic vectors that you can draw is currently limited by the baud rate on the port, but I assume that if you get a faster communications channel, then there's probably a limit based on how fast they can slew the electron beam. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Feb 9 12:08:14 2007 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:08:14 -0500 Subject: Some HP paper tapes found In-Reply-To: <007c01c74974$833a0480$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <007c01c74974$833a0480$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200702091808.l19I8FWS023151@mail.bcpl.net> On 5 Feb 2007 at 16:25, Jay West wrote: > There's some BCS and diag tapes too. Any chance of a 3030 mag tape drive diagnostic? It might be 20433-nnnnn, but that's just an educated guess. I'm also trying to locate a copy of the 2114 DMA Diagnostic, part number 20524-60001. > If anyone is desperately looking for tapes in that area of interest, let me > know and I'll make a list of what's there. I'll echo Al's comment; please do make a list. -- Dave From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 9 12:08:49 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 12:08:49 -0600 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <45CBB5D4.18746.1B7B215D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3C5@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45CB68F1.32623.1A4ECDB9@cclist.sydex.com>, <45CC1758.3040105@mdrconsult.com> <45CBB5D4.18746.1B7B215D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CCB8B1.102@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Snake oil exists in all fields. That's the truest statement I've heard all year. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Feb 9 06:49:30 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:49:30 -0500 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) Message-ID: <0JD700EBG4V5KJE8@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) > From: Richard > Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:40:18 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, > Allison writes: > >> Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, >> VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). > >Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. I meant Regis graphics, Sixel is a printer graphics protocal (As in LA75, LA100 and others). >VT100 docs (user guide and technical guide, both on bitsavers) do not >mention sixel graphics at all. Paul Shuford's site has some >discussion of what "sixel graphics" means and apparently different >people use the term loosely to describe different things. > >The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100. Totally incorrect as the Vt125 is a VT100 + the VT125 graphics plane. So a VT125 is a vt100 but a VT100 is not a VT125 holds. >The VT220 Programmer Reference Manual also does not mention sixel >graphics, but you can download a font glyph definition and presumably >with the right custom font you could display some sort of image, but >its not "sixel graphics". > >The VT320, like the VT200 series, also had user-definable character >sets. You can "fake" some graphics this way like you can with the >VT220. See . > >I know all these DEC terminal models can become confusing, but trust >me, I have been paying attention to which models support graphics. > gives these models as supporting >graphics: IT was VT105 I'd meant not the base VT100. > VT55: primitive graphics capability > VT105: VT100 + VT55 graphics capability > > VT125: Graphics produced as a separate display from the text. > (I am not sure what this means; a separate monitor > required?) It means the display was a two plane one for characters and one for grpahics and they are displayed on the same tube. External monitor is required for color though. My Vt125 and VT185 have this. > VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics > VT241: Color ReGIS graphics > VT330: B&W ReGIS graphics > VT340: Color ReGIS graphics Read further the manual. Works fine on mine. I prefer the DEC tubes as Real Terminals(tm) rather than PCs running a poor emulation. I have used all of them in place AKA in the terminal and printers engineering (in a former engineering life) group makes it harder to remember all of them. It's also a problem as I have a few one off firmware versions that were not produced. Allison From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 9 12:22:55 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:22:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) steam works In-Reply-To: <537090C5-F088-459B-8345-3431D16536E9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070209182255.3205.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> After soaking in water for four days, I tried using a little steam cleaner (Euro-Pro). It's working, but slow. I got about 1/2 of a mound cleaned off in an hour. A mound that was on a flat surface (the disk drive chassis) actually slid off after undermining it with the steam! Looks like I'll be able to save the drives. Does anyone have a manual / schematics for the Calcomp drives? Models 140 and 142. Thanks, Bob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 12:23:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:23:09 -0700 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:49:30 -0500. <0JD700EBG4V5KJE8@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: In article <0JD700EBG4V5KJE8 at vms044.mailsrvcs.net>, Allison writes: > >The VT125 had ReGIS graphics capability, but this is not a VT100. > > Totally incorrect as the Vt125 is a VT100 + the VT125 graphics plane. > So a VT125 is a vt100 but a VT100 is not a VT125 holds. This is just silly reasoning. Under this reasoning, every integer greater than 2 is also 2, since 3 = 2 + 1. A VT100 is a VT100. It isn't a VT100 plus other stuff. A VT125 isn't a VT100 because it has extra capabilities that the VT100 doesn't have. > > VT240: B&W ReGIS graphics > > VT241: Color ReGIS graphics > > VT330: B&W ReGIS graphics > > > VT340: Color ReGIS graphics > > Read further the manual. Works fine on mine. I can't even parse this first sentence and the second is so devoid of context I don't even know what you're talking about. If you want to scan VT240, VT241, VT330 and VT340 manuals and contribute them to bitsavers, then I'll be able to read them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 9 12:30:14 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:30:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CC860B.7000309@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 09, 2007 08:32:43 AM Message-ID: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> > woodelf wrote: > > I am still recovering from the Beatles invasion from > > this side of the pond. Do you still have a wide selection > > of music CD's or have they like the USA only the NEW > > fad music in stock? > > Most of the independent music stores have died out, sadly. Naturally the big > players stock music that will make them the most money, rather than the > independents which often seemed to choose half their stock based on simply > trying to provide something unusual for people to listen to. > I'm told the only way for the independents to really survive now is to find a way to differentiate themselves. Of the record stores that I frequent, four are rather unusual in their lack of specialization, and the fourth is pretty much specialized on Psychedalic (this is the owners chief intrest), Jazz and Alternative. As I understand it, in a lot of cities the independents are strongly specialized. I was in my favorite one recently when someone from Seattle was in there commenting on the wide selection of music compared to the stores up there. Every independent I'm aware of in our area except one, has at least some used vinyl, most have large amounts, in addition to new and used CD's (and often DVD's). Most carry a limited amount of new vinyl, the exception being the store I mentioned that specializes, as it is probably close to half new vinyl. As I mentioned the other day, vinyl sales are increasing while CD sales are dropping. One thing that really confuses me on the whole CD/Vinyl sales thing is that while some albums will cost considerably more on Vinyl, a sizable number are significantly cheaper (for example the latest Bob Dylan or Johnny Cash albums released last year). I've also seen current vinyl releases that have extra songs that aren't on the CD. I'm not even aware of any chain stores left in the area that specialize in music, they're all gone. All that is left in that market would be stores like Best Buy, Target, and Fred Meyers. Their selection can be less than stellar. What really got me was Fry's when I was there last weekend, their selection was so slim, it makes me wonder if they're getting out of CD sales. Zane From charlesmorris at hughes.net Fri Feb 9 12:30:07 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 12:30:07 -0600 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <200702091803.l19I2a3F045464@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702091803.l19I2a3F045464@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:03:37 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >On Feb 8, 2007, at 2:42 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> I have a dual floppy system from Computer Automation that >> some kind of insect had made a nest in a long time ago. I'm not >> sure how to remove the stuff. I tried water but it has no effect. >> It's hard as concrete! I looked at the pictures and those sure look a lot like mud dauber wasp nests - they get into everything stored outdoors in Missouri that has an opening big enough to admit a wasp. That mix of wasp snot and dirt could be a replacement for structural concrete if one could find a way to direct the placement :) Unfortunately I don't know any magic way to get it off that won't also destroy the electronics! I've actually had to use a hammer to get rid of some of them, and steel-brush the remainder. Obviously not practical in your floppy drive. http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/hymenoptera/sphecidae/sphecinae/muddaubnestfl.html -Charles From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Feb 9 12:44:38 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:44:38 -0200 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) References: <842915.17733.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <537090C5-F088-459B-8345-3431D16536E9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <01d001c74c7a$6c36a4b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I live in southwest Florida...we get those blasted things on the > outside of our houses down here. I have no idea what they are, but they > are indeed difficult to remove. The standard solution is to use a > pressure washer. I doubt that'd be appropriate for a PCB though. :-( I forgot the english name for it, in portuguese is called "vespa", is a bitter insect (has a point on back that hurts) and they build their houses with this hard material. You can take it off scrapping but I doubt you will save this board, mostly anything animal that glues is corrosive, so I doubt there are integral traces on bottom of it. Oh, I just remember...WASP is their name. They are not good to mess up with, they bite and it hurts. If this is a replaceable unit, just throw it away and put some poison on it :o) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 12:46:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:46:07 -0800 Subject: Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) steam works In-Reply-To: <20070209182255.3205.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <537090C5-F088-459B-8345-3431D16536E9@neurotica.com>, <20070209182255.3205.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45CC50EF.6640.1DD90714@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 10:22, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Does anyone have a manual / schematics for the Calcomp drives? > Models 140 and 142. No, but IIRC, the head positioner actuator on these things is the weak link. I had 2 of the 140's and eventually, both actuators bit the dust (winding shorted out). Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Feb 9 12:53:56 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:53:56 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3D7@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson wrote: Tony Duell wrote: >> Can't say the same for *some* players I've owned (thinks of Magnavox crap >> in wastebasket about three months later just after the warranty expired). > > IIRC Magnavox are essentially Philips. Interesting - I didn't know that. The Magnavox stuff I've seen in the US seems to have less build quality than similar Philips items from Europe, but that's possibly a reflection on US consumer electronic/electrical equipment in general rather than any kind of corporate failing. > In the UK, Philips CD players were > knwon for developing dry joiuts. A complete re-solder would get them > going again and then they'd essentially go for ever... The soldering is awful in their Laserdisc players of old; sounds like things didn't improve when they started making CD players... cheers Jules --------------------------- Philips bought the Magnavox label seveeral years ago. Before that, they had a terrible time getting name brand recognition in the US. Most of the sets for both brands were made by Funai, so there was very little real change. This is common technique for companies outside the US trying to crack the US market. Philips also bought Sonic Care tooth brushes for the same reason. Thomson bought the RCA brand name. And so on. Billy From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 9 13:05:03 2007 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:05:03 -0600 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] Message-ID: <20070209190503.KWQN8793.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Richard wrote: > At the very least it would be interesting to > add a USB port to the Tektronix this way to give it a higher serial > transfer rate. The number and complexity of the dynamic vectors that > you can draw is currently limited by the baud rate on the port, but I > assume that if you get a faster communications channel, then there's > probably a limit based on how fast they can slew the electron beam. That was the impression I got at the time. Of course it's been *mumble* years. (You know, it's really sad when you find yourself counting how many decades something's been.) One of my college roommates did his senior project setting up an LSI-11 as a front end for the 4014. He didn't integrate into the card cage, but I seem to remember that he didn't just hook it up to the RS-232 port either, but he may have. That bit's rather fuzzy. I seem to remember that he found it really didn't help much on the speed of drawing. But I think it was more a matter of comm speed rather than what the terminal could do. BLS From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Feb 9 14:12:31 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:12:31 -0600 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006301c74c86$a15465e0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Yeah, I've already tried that. It didn't fix the problem. Also, it should be noted that Radio Shack's parts area has shrunk to something useless in most cases. Got any other suggestions? I have no idea what it could be. I've replaced the flyback/choke, the PSU, and repaired the analog board. Only things left are the logic board and the CRT. Maybe I should pull the analog board and resolder it? I've got no clue. Though I do have to say, the cap that went on the analog board, it was pretty badly exploded, and the diode was brown. They both left some light burnmarks on the board. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Pechter > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 7:02 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 > > Does the varient matter. IIRC, they're equivalent factory > replacements. > > I've got a couple of video boards. I fix the failed ones myself. > > The biggest failure is the cap and diode at the center of the > video board (don't remember if that's the Elston or the > Ball), $2.00 in Radio Shack some solder and it's fixed. > > > Bill > > > On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: > > > > > > In article < > > D0A43323EEC4C046801C1B71873472030186633F at HERMES2K3.CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, > > "Wolfe, Julian " writes: > > > > > All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare > > > VT100 analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the > last piece > > > I need to get my VT100 working again. > > > > What's the Elston variant? > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft > available for download > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Feb 9 14:13:52 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:13:52 -0600 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:46:13 -0600. Message-ID: <006401c74c86$d1d87120$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> There's two types of electronics in a VT100, either the Elston CRT and analog board, or the Ball Brothers CRT and analog board. See the VT100 service manual on Bitsavers for more details. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:12 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 > > > In article > , > "Wolfe, Julian " writes: > > > All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare > > VT100 analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the > last piece I > > need to get my VT100 working again. > > What's the Elston variant? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 14:19:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:19:03 -0700 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:13:52 -0600. <006401c74c86$d1d87120$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: In article <006401c74c86$d1d87120$920718ac at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, "Julian Wolfe" writes: > There's two types of electronics in a VT100, either the Elston CRT and > analog board, or the Ball Brothers CRT and analog board. See the VT100 > service manual on Bitsavers for more details. Presumably the analog boards are a little different for the different tubes? Somehow I expected DEC to be more standardized, but I guess they standardized at the point where the analog board plugs into the rest of the unit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 14:41:45 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:41:45 -0600 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60702091241n4989ac18o6f28343318b6326e@mail.gmail.com> I think I can find one here for you. I'm sorry I forgot to get back to you on the 11/34 parts. Do you still need them? Paul Anderson On 2/8/07, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare VT100 > analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the last piece I need to > get my VT100 working again. > > Julian > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 9 14:56:18 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:56:18 -0600 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: <006301c74c86$a15465e0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <006301c74c86$a15465e0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <45CCDFF2.607@mdrconsult.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > Yeah, I've already tried that. It didn't fix the problem. Also, it should > be noted that Radio Shack's parts area has shrunk to something useless in > most cases. A Radio Shack manager told me straight up in November that they're not restocking components in-store. You can still order most anything you need online, and if you pick it up at the RS store shipping is free and something like 48-hour delivery. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 15:32:53 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:32:53 -0500 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: <0JD700EBG4V5KJE8@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JD700EBG4V5KJE8@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45CCE885.2020307@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>> Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, >>> VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). >> Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. > > I meant Regis graphics, Sixel is a printer graphics protocal (As in LA75, > LA100 and others). Which the VT330 and VT340 is capable of rendering. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 9 15:41:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:41:29 -0700 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > As I mentioned the other day, vinyl sales are increasing while CD sales are > dropping. One thing that really confuses me on the whole CD/Vinyl sales > thing is that while some albums will cost considerably more on Vinyl, a > sizable number are significantly cheaper (for example the latest Bob Dylan > or Johnny Cash albums released last year). I've also seen current vinyl > releases that have extra songs that aren't on the CD. But how many people like Johnny Cash? How ever it may be that making records is still cheaper than CD's since you can do that with older hardware. I can't think where you could buy a CD press since it is all controled by the BIG music industy. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 9 15:44:51 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" Message-ID: <899217.46759.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/1945-IBM-Computer-Engineer-s-Bible- Antique-Manual_W0QQitemZ190079723533QQihZ009QQcategory Z1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem One can only wonder if an up to date translation would be necessary :D ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 9 15:48:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:48:39 -0700 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: <45CCDFF2.607@mdrconsult.com> References: <006301c74c86$a15465e0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <45CCDFF2.607@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45CCEC37.4060709@jetnet.ab.ca> > A Radio Shack manager told me straight up in November that they're not > restocking components in-store. > > You can still order most anything you need online, and if you pick it > up at the RS store shipping is free and something like 48-hour delivery. Here in Canada ( Same store -- different owner of the company ) they were selling printers -- A lexmark E232 B&W laser-- I picked one up. About 6 months later I went to pick a new toner cartage, none in stock. Web order only --- None at all in Canada. Parts I can see them having nothing in stock with parts, but to sell a printer and not have toner at all. From micheladam at theedge.ca Fri Feb 9 15:54:30 2007 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:54:30 -0700 Subject: SunOs tapes Message-ID: <15a7ea9e3e49.45cc8b26@theedge.ca> I have both 4.1.1 for Sun3/3x, and the 4.1.1_U1 update, on CD, and could use CloneCD on those, if you would like. Would not mind getting one of those fuse for my 3/60. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: silvercreekvalley Date: Friday, February 9, 2007 4:06 am Subject: SunOs tapes > Looking for any original SunOS tapes (any machine) > or a 4.x era Sun 3 CD. Must be original tape/CD. > Format etc doesnt matter as I can cope with just > about anything. > > Also - if anyone is looking for the fairly difficult > to find fuses that you get in Sun 3's I have a few > spares available (no charge, just postage). > > I've blown a few of these fuses over the years, > usually > caused by the keyboard plug moving in the socket while > the Sun is on - and I've found them awkward to find. > > Cheers > > Ian. > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > From wizard at voyager.net Fri Feb 9 16:06:17 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:06:17 -0500 Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <899217.46759.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <899217.46759.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1171058777.22070.82.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-09 at 13:44 -0800, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/1945-IBM-Computer-Engineer-s-Bible- > Antique-Manual_W0QQitemZ190079723533QQihZ009QQcategory > Z1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > One can only wonder if an up to date translation would > be necessary :D Just take it on faith, heathen. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 9 16:20:29 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:20:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Feb 09, 2007 02:41:29 PM Message-ID: <200702092220.l19MKTqE027527@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > As I mentioned the other day, vinyl sales are increasing while CD sales are > > dropping. One thing that really confuses me on the whole CD/Vinyl sales > > thing is that while some albums will cost considerably more on Vinyl, a > > sizable number are significantly cheaper (for example the latest Bob Dylan > > or Johnny Cash albums released last year). I've also seen current vinyl > > releases that have extra songs that aren't on the CD. > > But how many people like Johnny Cash? How ever it may be that making > records is still cheaper than CD's since you can do that with older > hardware. I can't think where you could buy a CD press since it is > all controled by the BIG music industy. > Obviously enough people like Johnny Cash enough to warrent vinyl releases of his most recent albums:^) In fact since his death, there have been quite a few re-releases of his early albums. I've been a fan for as long as I can remember, and over the years I've been really surprised by some of the people that like him. The strange thing is that a lot (most) of these albums where the LP is cheaper than the CD release, both appear to be done by the same record label. I suspect that it is when the LP's are licensed and released by a smaller specialty label that the price of the LP goes up. Another interesting thing was that one album which I looked at recently, advertised on the cover that it included a special code which would allow you to download MP3's of the album. Now that's cool! The economics of LP's vs. CD's vs. paid downloads just doesn't make sense. I've even seen at least one brand new LP where the LP was cheaper than a download would be! Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 9 16:51:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:51:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45CC8496.6000805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200702062155.l16LtgOC088310@keith.ezwind.net> <45CC8496.6000805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070209144930.M7153@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose I was at college about that time, and we had one system in the > entire place with a CDROM attached. . . . and when another CDROM was requested, it would get hung up in the budget process because it required another computer. For a long time, EACH CDROM had a dedicated computer. But, the administration COULD grasp the concept of a single projector or VCR to go with a whole collection of tapes or films. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 9 17:14:56 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:14:56 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: References: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1129.192.168.0.4.1171062896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, February 9, 2007 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right. I think the VT125 could also do VT55/VT105-style waveform > graphics as well, but I'm not positive about that. I think so, it was the standard model for the MINC Lab computer and some of the docs I've got show waveform style graphics. > So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3" marked VT240 or VT241 at a > hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an The same casing was used for the DECmux and DECtalk, an old customer of mine used to use DECtalk to announce the time and any safety messages. Pity I never got the chance to get hold of the boxes when they upgraded. Said customer also (at the time) had a PDP 11/70 talking to RA9x drives, this was only 7 or 8 years ago :o| > a VR241. I think it was common in the day to use a Barco monitor > rather than a DEC monitor in a VT241. It was indeed. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 17:23:18 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:23:18 -0500 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: <1129.192.168.0.4.1171062896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <1129.192.168.0.4.1171062896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Witchy wrote: > On Fri, February 9, 2007 16:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Right. I think the VT125 could also do VT55/VT105-style waveform > > graphics as well, but I'm not positive about that. > > I think so, it was the standard model for the MINC Lab computer and some > of the docs I've got show waveform style graphics. My MINC came with a VT105, but I've done some reading and it appears that VT55/VT105 waveform graphics are supported with a standard VT125 (along with all its other features, such as video *in* with text overlay) > > So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3" marked VT240 or VT241 at a > > hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an > > The same casing was used for the DECmux and DECtalk Yep. I was pretty sure it was the same case, but I didn't want to be the one to make that assertion first. I've only ever seen one or two DECtalk boxes in the wild. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 17:39:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:39:11 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today Message-ID: Well... not literally "dropped"... Someone handed me one at lunch today (he thought it was an ADM2 when he mentioned it), so I brought it home and started googling around for it. Didn't see anything on bitsavers, but I did find this... http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/morrow/mdadm20.pdf ... on Dave Dunfield's pages, I presume. From what I can read, it's a pre/non-ANSI terminal from 1983. I was going to use it as a console for this Netra t 1125 (reboxed Sun Ultra 60 w/no holes for keyboard or video), but the distinct lack of VT-100-compatibility makes me think that I should dig something else out for a console to at least install the OS. Once it's up, there _is_ an adm20 entry in the termcap. To me, at least, the only thing remarkable about it is the company that made it. At least there's a bit of lore attached to ADM3 terminals (and the historic places they used to be found in). A non-ANSI terminal from 1983 just isn't that exciting, so if anyone on the list is really gung-ho for Morrow Designs stuff, make inquiries off-list, please. Gotta go dig up that Planar ELT-320 - at least it's small and low-power (as well as being ANSI-compatible in the terminal (not PC character graphics) sense). -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 9 17:41:19 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:41:19 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: References: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <1129.192.168.0.4.1171062896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1190.192.168.0.4.1171064479.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, February 9, 2007 23:23, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I think so, it was the standard model for the MINC Lab computer and some >> of the docs I've got show waveform style graphics. > > My MINC came with a VT105, but I've done some reading and it appears > that VT55/VT105 waveform graphics are supported with a standard VT125 > (along with all its other features, such as video *in* with text > overlay) Hmm, maybe I'm remembering wrong about the VT125 being standard, I've got lots of the MINC newsletters and remembered it from there. If needs be I can probably dig them out. >> > So if you see a slab approx 15"x9"x3" marked VT240 or VT241 at a >> > hamfest, it's easy to turn that back into a terminal - just add an >> >> The same casing was used for the DECmux and DECtalk > > Yep. I was pretty sure it was the same case, but I didn't want to be > the one to make that assertion first. I've only ever seen one or two > DECtalk boxes in the wild. I've not seen any since those days; I found a couple of boxes at work that I hoped were DECtalk but they were DECmux instead. Bits of me are saying that the DEREP (the 'other side' to a DECbridge) also used the same casing but I wouldn't swear by that, it's got to be 15 years or so since I last saw one! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 9 18:03:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:03:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: from "Wolfe, Julian" at Feb 8, 7 04:46:13 pm Message-ID: > > All the terminal chatter has reminded me, anyone got a good spare VT100 > analog video board of the Elston variant? It's the last piece I need to > get my VT100 working again. Two questions : 1) Why do you need a new board. Unless it's actually missing, it's very likely the old board can be repaired, almost all the components on it are standard 2) If you do ened a replacement board, why does it have to be that brand? The 3 boards I've seen are all directly itnerchangeable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 9 18:10:36 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:10:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Feb 8, 7 09:33:57 pm Message-ID: > > What are the dimensions of the different size heads? > > > Not sure about dimensions- the 800/400k drives I think share common > dimensions with the PC-esque 720k drives, and the 1.4 SuperDrive is > known to be the same dimension as the 1.44 MB PC mechanism. And AFAIK all those heads are the same size. All those drives (Mac and PC) record 80 cylinders) at 135tpi. There is no problkem moving (720K) disks between 720K and 1.44M drives (there was moving 5.25" 360K disks between 360K and 1.2M drives because the former is a 40 cylinder unit, the latter an 80 cylinder one). There were a few 40 cylinder (67.5 tpi) 3.5" drives, but AFAIK they were never standard on Macs or IBM PC compatibles. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 9 18:32:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:32:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: <006301c74c86$a15465e0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from "Julian Wolfe" at Feb 9, 7 02:12:31 pm Message-ID: > > Yeah, I've already tried that. It didn't fix the problem. Also, it should > be noted that Radio Shack's parts area has shrunk to something useless in > most cases. > > Got any other suggestions? I have no idea what it could be. I've replaced > the flyback/choke, the PSU, and repaired the analog board. Only things left > are the logic board and the CRT. Maybe I should pull the analog board and > resolder it? I've got no clue. You've not even told us what the problem is!. Now what _I_ would do is grab the printset (I assume the VT100 printset is on the web somewhere...) and start by checking the PSU outputs. Are they all correct? Then connect a standard RS170 (TV rate) monitor to the video output BNC socket. Doe you get video there? Does the terminal seem to work on the external monitor. If so, then the logic board is probably working fine. Now go back to the internal video syustem. Use an EHT probe to check the EHT on the CRT anode connector (should be around 12kV I think). Is the CRT heater glowing? Check the CRT gun electrode voltages. Do they seem sane? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 19:16:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:16:34 -0800 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 18:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Well... not literally "dropped"... > > Someone handed me one at lunch today (he thought it was an ADM2 when > he mentioned it), so I brought it home and started googling around for > it. Didn't see anything on bitsavers, but I did find this... If you have the terminal, you have half of a MD1/MD2/MD3 CP/M system: http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?st=1&c=613 Coincidentally, I (just minutes ago) finished a batch conversion of a bunch of MD3 New Word diskettes to RTF. Does anyone need a copy of an MD3 boot or the NewWord diskette? If not, they'll go back to the customer. Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Feb 9 19:22:48 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:22:48 -0800 Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: References: from "ScottQuinn" at Feb 8, 7 09:33:57 pm Message-ID: <578c01c74cb1$fa35a310$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive > > What are the dimensions of the different size heads? > > > Not sure about dimensions- the 800/400k drives I think share common > dimensions with the PC-esque 720k drives, and the 1.4 SuperDrive is > known to be the same dimension as the 1.44 MB PC mechanism. And AFAIK all those heads are the same size. All those drives (Mac and PC) record 80 cylinders) at 135tpi. There is no problkem moving (720K) disks between 720K and 1.44M drives (there was moving 5.25" 360K disks between 360K and 1.2M drives because the former is a 40 cylinder unit, the latter an 80 cylinder one). There were a few 40 cylinder (67.5 tpi) 3.5" drives, but AFAIK they were never standard on Macs or IBM PC compatibles. -tony ----------------- >From memory here... isn't the ONLY 'physical' difference between the 400K and 800K mac formats that the 400K is single-sided, double density (the density formerly called quads density on 5 1/4" media) and 80K is Double sided Double Density? (and yes, I am pretty sure I remember that the 400 and 800K aren't a standard MFM format... weren't they GCR or something equally bizarre? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 9 19:28:13 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:28:13 -0600 Subject: Some HP paper tapes found References: <007c01c74974$833a0480$6600a8c0@BILLING> <200702091808.l19I8FWS023151@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <01a101c74cb2$bbd92b90$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dave wrote... > Any chance of a 3030 mag tape drive diagnostic? It might be 20433-nnnnn, > but that's just an educated guess. > > I'm also trying to locate a copy of the 2114 DMA Diagnostic, part number > 20524-60001. I knew you were looking for the 2114 DMA diagnostic... I looked for that already and just looked for the 3030 stuff. No luck on either one :( > I'll echo Al's comment; please do make a list. I will make a list and post! Jay From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 19:36:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:36:09 -0800 Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <578c01c74cb1$fa35a310$0701a8c0@liberator> References: , , <578c01c74cb1$fa35a310$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <45CCB109.24096.1F506BD7@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 17:22, Geoff Reed wrote: > >From memory here... isn't the ONLY 'physical' difference between the 400K > and 800K mac formats that the 400K is single-sided, double density (the > density formerly called quads density on 5 1/4" media) and 80K is Double > sided Double Density? (and yes, I am pretty sure I remember that the 400 and > 800K aren't a standard MFM format... weren't they GCR or something equally > bizarre? Yes, something "equally bizarre". I don't even know how one talks about "double" or "single" density with these things. I mean, are Apple ][ diskettes "double" or "single density"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 9 19:37:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:37:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <578c01c74cb1$fa35a310$0701a8c0@liberator> References: from "ScottQuinn" at Feb 8, 7 09:33:57 pm <578c01c74cb1$fa35a310$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <20070209173456.E7153@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: > >From memory here... isn't the ONLY 'physical' difference between the 400K > and 800K mac formats that the 400K is single-sided, double density (the > density formerly called quads density on 5 1/4" media) and 80K is Double > sided Double Density? (and yes, I am pretty sure I remember that the 400 and > 800K aren't a standard MFM format... weren't they GCR or something equally > bizarre? Yes, the 300K Mac format is single sided, and the 800K is double sided. They are both GCR, NEITHER is normally called "double density". The 1.4M Mac format IS MFM/"double density" although the marketing people call it "high density" From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Feb 9 19:39:03 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:39:03 -0600 Subject: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 In-Reply-To: References: <006301c74c86$a15465e0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> from "JulianWolfe" at Feb 9, 7 02:12:31 pm Message-ID: <00b901c74cb4$3efe0e90$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> The problem is, both the common diode and cap that fail, did, and now it won't power the CRT on. The keyboard lights come on and I can go into setup mode but there is no display. I will try the BNC output though. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 6:33 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need an Elston analog video board for VT100 > > > > > Yeah, I've already tried that. It didn't fix the problem. > Also, it > > should be noted that Radio Shack's parts area has shrunk to > something > > useless in most cases. > > > > Got any other suggestions? I have no idea what it could be. I've > > replaced the flyback/choke, the PSU, and repaired the > analog board. > > Only things left are the logic board and the CRT. Maybe I > should pull > > the analog board and resolder it? I've got no clue. > > You've not even told us what the problem is!. > > Now what _I_ would do is grab the printset (I assume the > VT100 printset is on the web somewhere...) and start by > checking the PSU outputs. Are they all correct? > > Then connect a standard RS170 (TV rate) monitor to the video > output BNC socket. Doe you get video there? Does the terminal > seem to work on the external monitor. If so, then the logic > board is probably working fine. > > Now go back to the internal video syustem. Use an EHT probe > to check the EHT on the CRT anode connector (should be around > 12kV I think). Is the CRT heater glowing? Check the CRT gun > electrode voltages. Do they seem sane? > > -tony > From palazzol at comcast.net Fri Feb 9 19:40:25 2007 From: palazzol at comcast.net (Frank Palazzolo) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:40:25 -0500 Subject: Origins of "ansi" color codes In-Reply-To: <200702090853.l198qE2g039277@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702090853.l198qE2g039277@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45CD2289.7000309@comcast.net> Hello, Some old PC terminal emulators emulate "ansi" color. They use a total of 16 colors, which are really 8 colors with light/dark (bold/normal) versions. The color modes are triggered by escape sequences. The actual colors used in various emulators vary quite a bit. I am interested in knowing which terminal actually originated these colors (vt241? vt3xx series?). Ideally, I'd love to see a color spec, or schematics of how the terminal actually generated the colors, to try to get the most accurate representation possible of the colors. Thanks for any help, Frank From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Feb 9 20:00:06 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:00:06 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com> References: Message-ID: <200702100159.l1A1xOJG024712@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Well... not literally "dropped"... > > > > Someone handed me one at lunch today (he thought it was an ADM2 when > > he mentioned it), so I brought it home and started googling around for > > it. Didn't see anything on bitsavers, but I did find this... I've got one of these ... and I have the "technical reference manual" up on my site (look under Morrow MD2/3) - Note that this is NOT a service manual, but it does give you the switch settings, control codes etc. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From allain at panix.com Fri Feb 9 20:21:33 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:21:33 -0500 Subject: Computer movies part VI References: <20070208163605.987DB4C9A9@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <053001c74cba$2f8ac4c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> I just got a cheap DVD {of} the old 1983 "Brainstorm" and besides... > I just checked imdb and it stars Christopher "Needs more cowbell" Walken! :) If you don't know what this movie is and are into ClassicCmp, then you've missed quite a bit. Hollywood does the Silicon Valley experience (actually Research Triangle Park NC -- same thing ). John A. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 9 15:26:17 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:26:17 +0000 Subject: Kinda OT. 2x8 dot matrix LCD sources? In-Reply-To: <899217.46759.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070210022410.GIMN1862.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Dug this LCD display out of a QuikLaser Samsung laser, the 44780 compatiable IC is furbar'ed and it is a bare die covered in black slop type (aka cheap watch style). Fixing up to sell, discovered LCD is dead after replacing the main gear for the fuser assembly (done!). Unfortunely, the LCD assembly is NLA from Samsung. :( Looking for a good source similar to this or similar size of LCD even the pins is in different places. 2 x 8 character, dot matrix type, viewing area: 38mm x 16mm. Based on Hitachi 44780. 7 x 2 pins (two of these pins are for LED backlight). Dud Original: Powertip PC-802A, LED backlight (can have one without.) Link & short datasheet in PDF for it. http://www.vandijkenelektronica.nl/site/index.php?action=product&categ ories_id=22&products_id=665 Cheers, Wizard From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 20:23:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:23:48 -0700 Subject: Origins of "ansi" color codes In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:40:25 -0500. <45CD2289.7000309@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <45CD2289.7000309 at comcast.net>, Frank Palazzolo writes: > I am interested in knowing which terminal actually originated these > colors (vt241? vt3xx series?). ECMA-048 is the standard for this and it was first introduced in 1976: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 20:45:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:45:01 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: <200702100159.l1A1xOJG024712@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com> <200702100159.l1A1xOJG024712@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > Well... not literally "dropped"... > > > > > > Someone handed me one at lunch today... > > > ... Didn't see anything on bitsavers, but I did find this... > > I've got one of these ... and I have the "technical reference manual" up on > my site (look under Morrow MD2/3) - Note that this is NOT a service manual, > but it does give you the switch settings, control codes etc. Right, Dave... I found that and gave a (credited) link to your copy of the TRM. I'm very glad you put that up because documentation on this terminal seems to be scarce. Thanks for your Morrow Designs page. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 20:46:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:46:51 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Feb 2007 at 18:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Well... not literally "dropped"... > > > > Someone handed me one at lunch today... > > If you have the terminal, you have half of a MD1/MD2/MD3 CP/M system: > > http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?st=1&c=613 Right, but the ADM20 is just a terminal, isn't it? The CP/M part of an MD1/etc is in the same box as the floppy drives, right? > Coincidentally, I (just minutes ago) finished a batch conversion of a > bunch of MD3 New Word diskettes to RTF. Does anyone need a copy of > an MD3 boot or the NewWord diskette? If not, they'll go back to the > customer. Not as far as I know, but thanks for the offer. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 21:00:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:00:13 -0800 Subject: Kinda OT. 2x8 dot matrix LCD sources? In-Reply-To: <20070210022410.GIMN1862.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <899217.46759.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com>, <20070210022410.GIMN1862.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <45CCC4BD.26376.1F9D62B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 21:26, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Dud Original: Powertip PC-802A, LED backlight (can have one > without.) There's one on eBay right now, closing in about 2 days: Item 280080166221 Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 9 21:02:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:02:10 -0700 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:46:51 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > On 2/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you have the terminal, you have half of a MD1/MD2/MD3 CP/M system: > > > > http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?st=1&c=613 > > Right, but the ADM20 is just a terminal, isn't it? The CP/M part of > an MD1/etc is in the same box as the floppy drives, right? According to the entry on old-computers, yes that's how it was arranged -- the included terminal was just a terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 21:02:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:02:34 -0800 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: References: , <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45CCC54A.14164.1F9F88DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 21:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right, but the ADM20 is just a terminal, isn't it? The CP/M part of > an MD1/etc is in the same box as the floppy drives, right? Yup. ...and killed off by the 5150 PC. A friend bought one just before the PC was announced and was sorta bummed by the timing. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 21:19:13 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:19:13 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: <45CCC54A.14164.1F9F88DF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45CCAC72.4198.1F3E7B1B@cclist.sydex.com> <45CCC54A.14164.1F9F88DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Feb 2007 at 21:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Right, but the ADM20 is just a terminal, isn't it? The CP/M part of > > an MD1/etc is in the same box as the floppy drives, right? > > Yup. ...and killed off by the 5150 PC. A friend bought one just > before the PC was announced and was sorta bummed by the timing. Ow! Buying a computer is always a gamble, but unless he stuck with CP/M for a long time after, it sounds like he moved just a wee bit too hastily (presuming he bought the Morrow Designs box to get "real work" done rather than as a "big boy toy"). I wasn't into CP/M at the dawn of the PC-DOS era, but in some ways, I don't mind so much - at the time, I was doing 6502 stuff because I couldn't afford a CP/M machine. I would have been devastated to have bought something for a couple (few?) grand to feel like I'd just tied up a serious amount of capital on the "previous best thing". -ethan From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 9 16:27:29 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:27:29 +0000 Subject: Kinda OT. 2x8 dot matrix LCD sources? In-Reply-To: <45CCC4BD.26376.1F9D62B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070210022410.GIMN1862.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20070210032521.ZMAA6280.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On 9 Feb 2007 at 21:26, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Dud Original: Powertip PC-802A, LED backlight (can have one > > without.) > > There's one on eBay right now, closing in about 2 days: > > Item 280080166221 > > Cheers, > Chuck Thanks! Strange I don't find it even I searched ebay with 2 x 8 string. :o Now it's on my watch list. Cheers, Wizard From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 9 22:10:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:10:06 -0800 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: References: , <45CCC54A.14164.1F9F88DF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45CCD51E.15733.1FDD5A20@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2007 at 22:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ow! Buying a computer is always a gamble, but unless he stuck with > CP/M for a long time after, it sounds like he moved just a wee bit too > hastily (presuming he bought the Morrow Designs box to get "real work" > done rather than as a "big boy toy"). 83-84 was a strange time. There was still a lot of uncertainty about the success of the 5150 enterprise. After all, IBM made of couple of earlier forays into the "personal computer" area (5100, 5110) and didn't get anywhere. So there were vendors peddling CP/M boxes betting agaisnt IBM. Morrow was one--my friend bought her MD3 in early 83 from a store in Palo Alto--by the same time in 84, the same place was selling 8088 boxes. Heck, given the difficulty of getting a 5150 in the early days, I very seriously considered two other options--the NEC APC and a board for a Compupro box (the box surplus from Sorcim). After much lost sleep, I opted for the PeeCee, picked up from a San Jose Confuserland (remember the stories there?). I didn't regret it. :) I think what cemented IBM's position was their publication of the Tech Ref for the 5150, complete with schematics and BIOS listing and the emergence of Taiwan's tech sector. I did end up consulting on Chapter 7 disposal of several Bay Area alternatetive PC makers, as well as doing some contract programming for a couple software enterprises who were scrambling to get their stuff ported to the PC. My investment in the PC was probably the best financial gamble I ever took. Cheers, Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Feb 9 22:35:31 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:35:31 -0800 Subject: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive In-Reply-To: <20070209173456.E7153@shell.lmi.net> References: from"ScottQuinn" at Feb 8, 7 09:33:57 pm <578c01c74cb1$fa35a310$0701a8c0@liberator> <20070209173456.E7153@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <58d701c74ccc$e5e75190$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Copying Mac Disks with a Single Drive On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Geoff Reed wrote: > >From memory here... isn't the ONLY 'physical' difference between the 400K > and 800K mac formats that the 400K is single-sided, double density (the > density formerly called quads density on 5 1/4" media) and 80K is Double > sided Double Density? (and yes, I am pretty sure I remember that the 400 and > 800K aren't a standard MFM format... weren't they GCR or something equally > bizarre? Yes, the 300K Mac format is single sided, and the 800K is double sided. They are both GCR, NEITHER is normally called "double density". The 1.4M Mac format IS MFM/"double density" although the marketing people call it "high density" --------- It's nice to know that my memory isn't totally faulty :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 00:00:07 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:00:07 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: <45CCD51E.15733.1FDD5A20@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45CCC54A.14164.1F9F88DF@cclist.sydex.com> <45CCD51E.15733.1FDD5A20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/9/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My investment in the PC was probably the best financial gamble I ever took. I can completely understand that. In my case, since I did _not_ end up with a PC-compatible until 1992 when I bought a 386DX40 mobo at the Dayton Hamvention (*specifically* to run Linux, not DOS/Windows, FWIW), my best financial gamble was buying a used SPARCstation1 for $800 and then dropping another $1200 in disks and memory. That investment has paid for itself time and time again in the form of job and travel opportunities. The only purchase that I think could rival that one was a Commodore PET at age 13 that directly led to my first job a few years later (my future employer was advertising for PET programmers in the local Help Wanted section, and the job turned out to be programming a developer pre-release Commodore 64 in the spring of 1982). I've bought a lot of toys over the last 25-30 years, but those two machines turned out to be huge investments in my future. I can easily see how a 5150 in 1982 would be that for someone else. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 00:14:00 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:14:00 -0500 Subject: Origins of "ansi" color codes In-Reply-To: <45CD2289.7000309@comcast.net> References: <200702090853.l198qE2g039277@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45CD2289.7000309@comcast.net> Message-ID: <45CD62A8.90508@gmail.com> Frank Palazzolo wrote: > > Hello, > > Some old PC terminal emulators emulate "ansi" color. They use a total > of 16 colors, which are really 8 colors with light/dark (bold/normal) > versions. The color modes are triggered by escape sequences. The > actual colors used in various emulators vary quite a bit. > > I am interested in knowing which terminal actually originated these > colors (vt241? vt3xx series?). Neither the VT240 nor the VT330/340 support these color modes. The VT525 does, but I doubt it was the first. If I had to put money down, I'd say it was something non-DEC that did it first. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Feb 10 10:40:23 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:40:23 -0000 Subject: Sixel graphics (was: Humpty Dumpty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005501c74d32$2e9a34b0$4f04010a@uatempname> Richard wrote: > If you want to scan VT240, VT241, VT330 and VT340 manuals and > contribute them to bitsavers, then I'll be able to read them. Much of the VT240, VT330 and VT340 stuff is online and can be found via Manx (http://vt100.net/manx). Theirs is very little VT241 stuff - I think I used to have a manaul but I have no scan, so either it slipped through the net or my memory is in need of an overhaul. Antonio From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 10 11:06:14 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:06:14 -0800 Subject: Chinese water torture - was Bugs in computer hardware (real ones) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070208161600.05188868@mail.30below.com> References: <009301c74bbd$bf13da80$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20070208161600.05188868@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <45CDFB86.2050504@sbcglobal.net> Last night I thought of leaving the insect mounds under dripping water (it's raining here and the water coming off the roof and drilling a hole in the ground gave me the idea). This morning, all of the wasp mounds were gone! The traces under them look to be in good shape also. Nature knows best how to clean things. Bob From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Feb 10 11:11:44 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:11:44 -0500 Subject: Recent Ohio Scientific lot on ebay... Message-ID: Well, old age is starting to catch up with me... While sitting and waiting for the lot (item #170077516683) to get a little closer to its end time last night, I fell asleep in front of the computer and didn't bid. I'm not familiar with the ebay ID of the winner, if you are on this list, I'll pay what you bid for copies of the documentation that was "hinted at" in the lot listing. To everyone else, sorry for the interruption. Bill Sudbrink -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date: 2/9/2007 From djg at pdp8.net Sat Feb 10 11:12:05 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:12:05 -0500 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] Message-ID: <200702101712.l1AHC5k05307@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> > > There also was a 'write through' mode, > > again, not sure if it was a hack, or part of the production terminals, > > that would (within the limitations of the RS-232 port) could do simple > > dynamic (non-stored) vector graphics. >It is also on the 4010. The 4010 and the 4014 have a card cage into >which you can insert your own cards. > I have a 4010 and didn't see any mention of this in the manual. Do you know if it took special cards? >At the very least it would be interesting to >add a USB port to the Tektronix this way to give it a higher serial >transfer rate. The number and complexity of the dynamic vectors that >you can draw is currently limited by the baud rate on the port. > On the 4010 you can exceed the draw rate for stored vectors when running at 9600 baud and you don't sent the unchanged bytes in the coordinates. I was trying reduce the draw time to make a better demo and found that long vectors wouldn't line up properly at 9600 when several of the bytes didn't need to be sent. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 10 11:50:07 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:50:07 -0800 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today Message-ID: <45CE05CF.7070008@bitsavers.org> > > it. Didn't see anything on bitsavers, but I did find this... tech docs on the mdt20 are up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/mdt20 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 12:39:23 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:39:23 -0500 Subject: Speaking of terminals - a Morrow Designs/Lear Siegler ADM20 dropped on me today In-Reply-To: <45CE05CF.7070008@bitsavers.org> References: <45CE05CF.7070008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2/10/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > it. Didn't see anything on bitsavers, but I did find this... > > tech docs on the mdt20 are up now under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/mdt20 Thanks, Al! -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 10 14:01:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <1171058777.22070.82.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <266489.85735.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> wouldn't it be nice though...wouldn't it be real nice if the winner would take something like that, scan it, and make it available to the dumb masses? Perhaps a group bidding network should be formulated and really crazy stuff like that could be made publicly available, instead of just going into someone's private stash, or just to sit behind glass in some museum. --- Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Fri, 2007-02-09 at 13:44 -0800, Chris M wrote: > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/1945-IBM-Computer-Engineer-s-Bible- > > > Antique-Manual_W0QQitemZ190079723533QQihZ009QQcategory > > Z1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > One can only wonder if an up to date translation > would > > be necessary :D > > > Just take it on faith, heathen. > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Feb 10 14:29:14 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:29:14 -0800 Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <266489.85735.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <266489.85735.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45CE2B1A.1080409@msm.umr.edu> Chris M wrote: >wouldn't it be nice though...wouldn't it be real nice >if the winner would take something like that, scan it, >and make it available to the dumb masses? Perhaps a >group bidding network should be formulated and really >crazy stuff like that could be made publicly >available, instead of just going into someone's >private stash, or just to sit behind glass in some >museum. > > The psycho, er, ah seller in this case is "computer knowledgable" to quote one of his emails to me in the past, and could do the scanning as a service to collectors as well, and not detract from the value of his items. I commented to him about something in the past, and got back a hate filled response from him and would never buy anything from this guy. sad to say, he has a lot of stuff that probably is significant. which points up one of the things that can be really frustrating about buying anything, the bad seller. I have had few bad experiences with people on ebay, but I didn't even buy from this guy and he went nuts. as to "behind glass" in museums, I hope that is not a permanent situation with respect to documentation and software. Jim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 10 14:48:59 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:48:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <45CE2B1A.1080409@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <839404.49127.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- jim wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > >wouldn't it be nice though...wouldn't it be real > nice > >if the winner would take something like that, scan > it, > >and make it available to the dumb masses? Perhaps a > >group bidding network should be formulated and > really > >crazy stuff like that could be made publicly > >available, instead of just going into someone's > >private stash, or just to sit behind glass in some > >museum. > > > > > The psycho, er, ah seller in this case is "computer > knowledgable" to > quote one of his emails to me in the past, and could > do the scanning > as a service to collectors as well, and not detract > from the value > of his items. > > I commented to him about something in the past, and > got back a > hate filled response from him and would never buy > anything from > this guy. > > sad to say, he has a lot of stuff that probably is > significant. which > points up one of the things that can be really > frustrating about buying > anything, the bad seller. > > I have had few bad experiences with people on ebay, > but I didn't > even buy from this guy and he went nuts. > > as to "behind glass" in museums, I hope that is not > a permanent > situation with respect to documentation and > software. Well in my experience, if you're looking for a psycho, ebay isn't a bad place to look. What can you do. I've met a few too. Once something winds up in a museum or someone's collection, you can consider it lost essentially. Generally speaking (and maybe this is an over generalization), they're one in the same. Often the impetus behind getting my hands on something (unless of course it's crazy and groovy and I love it for myself) zany is so that others can have access to it. Loads of nuts just get something so that they can rub it under someone's nose. Now I'm no martyr, and most of my acquisitions are for moi, but I'm always willing to share the docs and whatnot. Getting them scanned up and all is a task as we all know though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From rickb at bensene.com Sat Feb 10 16:19:25 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:19:25 -0800 Subject: Tektronix terminals [was: Re: Re: Humpty Dumpty] Message-ID: >>> There also was a 'write through' mode, >>> again, not sure if it was a hack, or part of the production terminals, >>> that would (within the limitations of the RS-232 port) could do simple >>> dynamic (non-stored) vector graphics. >>It is also on the 4010. The 4010 and the 4014 have a card cage into >>which you can insert your own cards. >I have a 4010 and didn't see any mention of this in the manual. Do you >know if it took special cards? I know that the 4010 did not provide write-through in "stock" form. There were only two aspects of the 4010 that did write-through. One was the "crosshairs" that would be drawn on the screen when the "GIN" (Graphic In) escape sequence was received. When put into GIN mode, write-through X&Y crosshairs would appear, and two thumbwheels could be used to position the intersection of the crosshairs anywhere on the screen, then any key could be pressed to send the coordinates, and the key pressed, back to the host system. The other was a write-through vertical line that scanned left-to-right when the optional dry-silver paper hardcopy unit was connected to the 4010. The write-thru line would "scan" the screen, and areas of the screen that had stored points/vectors would cause voltage variations in a sense circuit, which would cause a special CRT in the hardcopy unit to duplicate the screen contents as dry-silver paper would pass by the CRT. Then, the paper was passed through a heater (HOT!) that would develop the latent image in the silver, and fix it. There very well could have been options or hacks that provided the ability to draw write-through vectors. I do know that there was a PDP/11 DMA parallel option that was available for the 4010 that allowed much higher speed operation than offered by the serial port, but there were handshaking considerations that had to be taken into account, because the PDP/11 could easily outpace the ability of the 4010 to keep up. I do know that there were write current adjustments which you could fiddle with which would turn down the energy of the beam enough that it wouldn't cause storage. But then, the 4010 was write-through ONLY. It became really difficult to read text on the screen, as it would have to be continuously refreshed. Through the serial port, there just wasn't enough speed to be able to refresh a whole screen's worth of text fast enough to be readable. I believe that the statement that was made that the 4014 (a large-screen [19" diagonal, IIRC) version of the 4010, with faster vector draw rates, and more features) is correct. I think that the 4014 did have a programmable write-through mode but I recall that it was an option, and didn't come standard. I remember talking to someone in the CRT fab building (Tek built all of their own DVST and oscilloscope tubes for many years -- the building no longer exists on the campus though..it was demolished quite a number of years ago) who was involved with the design of the DVST tube for the 4014. It was a major challenge. It was a large screen for the time, and major challenges involved in structural stability, along with the difficulties of fabricating the complex structures that made the storage tube possible. Tek's DVST terminals were mainstays of graphics display technology for quite some time. It was much less expensive than the vector systems made by folks like Sanders and others. I remember a CAD system in the basement of building 50 that was PDP-8-based, made by a company that I can't remember, unfortunately. The company OEM'd Tek's storage tubes for the displays on the machine. The system was used for circuit board layout. It didn't do routing or anything like that...it only allowed a layout to be "drawn", and then turned into a photoplotter tape that would generate the negative artwork for the board. The storage tubes on this system definitely operated in write-through mode most of the time, and were capable of having quite a few vectors on the screen at once without too much flicker. I spent quite a bit of spare time down there watching the artists (in those days, circuit board layout folks were truly artists) designing the various layers of Tek's famous multi-layer circuit boards used in their oscilloscopes and other instrumentation. The PDP-8 was a transistorized PDP 8 (not a straight-8 but one of the later ones before they started using ICs), and had a couple of RK05 drives, along with a full rack that was filled with the display subsystem electronics. Tek later made a machine called the 4081. It used a similar DVST tube as the used on the 4014 terminal. It was a computer workstaiton based on an Interdata 8/16 CPU that Tektronix OEM'd from Interdata. The machine had a Tek-designed custom display-list processor, and could do some pretty fancy write-through graphics, along with storage graphics. It was fast enough that even a reasonable amount of vector text could be painted on the screen in write-through mode. Storage and write-through could be mixed. The machine used what I believe were OEM'd from Diablo, similar to RK05-F's, with one fixed platter, and one removable platter. The machine also had a cartridge tape drive that could be used to "IPL" the system. I spent a lot of time writing Pascal and machine-level code on this machine. There were some really fun games that were written for this machine. There was a disk operating system (I can't remember the name) that was kind of OS/8-like, with similar commands, and user-perceived filesystem structure. I wonder if any of these machines are still around an in operation. After the 4081, the move to raster graphics had gathered speed. Tek did a lot of research internally on raster graphics. There was an absolutely groundbreaking machine called the Magnolia (never marketed) that had some kind of bit-slice processor, a highly capable bit-slice raster BLIT graphics engine. The machine had a Micropolis 40MB 8" hard disk in the base of the "terminal", and ran a Tek-developed window-based multiprocessing (Unix-like) operating system, with the development environment being Smalltalk. It had a monochrome display, but could do gray-scale, which made shading, etc. possible. The biggest problem with the design was that with the hard disk in the base, users tended to kick and bump their feet on the bottom of the pedestal, which would cause shocks to the hard disk, and cause head crashes. Those old drives were pretty sensitive. The sad part of the whole thing was that Tektronix never pursued these machines as a product - the machine never made it past prototype stage. I believe that Xerox Parc had their early machines (Star, etc.) out already, which the Tek machines were clearly patterned after, but Tektronix' graphics expertise would have made these machines into tremendous standalone graphics workstations long before they became mainstream. An example of one of many of Tektronix' missed market opportunities. I ended up getting a number of those Micropolis 40MB drives (brand new in the box, for something like $20) used in Magnolia from the Tek Country Store (another whole article could be written on this wonderful place) much later, and built a custom interface for a homebrew 6800-based computer that I'd built, and wrote drivers for the FLEX operating system to talk to the drive. The drives ran quite hot, were extremely noisy, and had essentially a simple parallel interface. It was pretty cool having a computer system at home that had a whopping 40MB of hard disk space when everyone was running Apple II's and the likes with floppies. As always, a long diatribe that somewhat wanders off-topic, but it is all definitely within the context of the list. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 16:19:50 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:19:50 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> Why is it that there still has been just one patch released from Apple (that one that fixed the QuickTime exploit) to address just one of the many Month of Apple Bugs? These bugs need to be fixed and I really hope that Apple is actively working on patches for all of the exploits related to Mac OS X that the MOAB team found...is it because they're putting all their programmers energy into 10.5? If that's true they really should take a few of the programmers and assign them to making patches for these exploits...what's the chances of these exploits being fixed in 10.5? c'mon Apple...get on it already! :-( From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 10 17:04:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:04:42 -0800 Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" Message-ID: <45CE4F8A.6000000@bitsavers.org> > Once something winds up in a museum or someone's > collection, you can consider it lost essentially. With a few notable exceptions. > I commented to him about something in the past, and > got back a hate filled response from him and would never buy > anything from this guy. There is a VERY special place in Hell reserved for "New Beginnings Antiques" I would be very surprised if CHM doesn't have a copy of this. I'll see what I can do about getting it scanned. From feedle at feedle.net Sat Feb 10 17:40:43 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:40:43 -0700 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Hex Star wrote: > Why is it that there still has been just one patch released from > Apple (that > one that fixed the QuickTime exploit) to address just one of the > many Month > of Apple Bugs? *looks around* You got some version of QuickTime that runs on an Apple IIgs or something? I thought this was "classiccmp." From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Feb 10 17:49:59 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:49:59 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2548.192.168.0.4.1171151399.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, February 10, 2007 23:40, Chris Sullivan wrote: > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Hex Star wrote: > >> Why is it that there still has been just one patch released from >> Apple (that >> one that fixed the QuickTime exploit) to address just one of the >> many Month >> of Apple Bugs? > > *looks around* > > You got some version of QuickTime that runs on an Apple IIgs or > something? I thought this was "classiccmp." I'd not feed the troll if I were you ;) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 10 17:58:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:58:10 -0700 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 Message-ID: Never heard of one of these, but I was surprised to read it was a Sun? Is this an x86 Sun or a ruggedized/portable SPARC or somesuch? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 18:19:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:19:37 -0500 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/10/07, Richard wrote: > Never heard of one of these, but I was surprised to read it was a Sun? > Is this an x86 Sun or a ruggedized/portable SPARC or somesuch? >From the look of the backpanel, it sure looks like a SPARC to me (unless there happens to be some circuit inside that converts Sun keyboard/mouse to PC - quite unlikely). -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Feb 10 18:34:46 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> from Hex Star at "Feb 10, 7 02:19:50 pm" Message-ID: <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> > Why is it that there still has been just one patch released from Apple (that > one that fixed the QuickTime exploit) to address just one of the many Month > of Apple Bugs? This is terribly OT, but it's far easier for people like LMH to release exploits than Apple (or, for that matter, Microsoft) to counter, test and roll out fixes. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never explain, never apologise. -- John Arbuthnot "Jackie" Fisher ---------- From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 18:34:42 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:34:42 -0500 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/10/07, Richard wrote: >> Never heard of one of these, but I was surprised to read it was a Sun? >> Is this an x86 Sun or a ruggedized/portable SPARC or somesuch? > > From the look of the backpanel, it sure looks like a SPARC to me > (unless there happens to be some circuit inside that converts Sun > keyboard/mouse to PC - quite unlikely). Especially since those look to be Sbus slots. Peace... Sridhar From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Feb 10 18:45:52 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:45:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wanted: bulk decconnect 6 conductor flat cord Message-ID: I've finally decided to go ahead and start making MMJ cables again after all. The seller who has been giving me trouble has given me several reasons to go ahead and compete. First off, his last email to me was this: > Ha Ha I didn't copy YOUR idea. You're so vain. > > Anyway, it doesn't matter what you say or think about me. I used to > like Texans before this experience. Well, I like Bush. > > Well, good luck I wish you the best. ...he then bid on one of my adapter kits to try scare away other bidders. I did cancel his bid and added his username to my BBL. Another bidder bought the kit, so I didn't even lose a sale over that. I also suspect he wanted to see how I had them wired, though I flat out old him to look up the DEC pinout. He bought a 1000ft spool of genuine decconnect cable off of eBay a month or so back, and after he started emailing me and then bid on my adapter kit, I've decided I'd like to compete with this guy head on. If someone has a spool of such cable laying around and wants to part with it, please let me know. I tried going after a lot of 10 50ft cables a few weeks ago so I could use their cable to make shorter/more useful cables, but a DEC reseller nabbed them ;P Most recently the guy who started copying my adapter kits has changed his listings for the MMJ cables he is making after my initial post/rant here on classiccmp: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130075722308 > Digital Equipment Corporation DEC BC16E 10 feet long DECconnect Office > Cable. Made from a spool of genuine, authentic, high quality DECconnect > Office Cable and MMJ offset style plugs. The MMJ plugs are high quality > and commercially available. > > The crimps are carefully made and thoroughly tested. I would never sell > a cable that did not work. > > Note that once I purchased a crimping tool from an eBayer. That tool > did not work properly and that eBayer later admitted that he sold me a > cheap tool. That particular tool has not been used in making any of my > cables sold on eBay. I now use a high quality crimping tool purchased > from a reputable supplier! > > This cable has never been used before other than to test it to make sure > it works. Tested on a DEC Alpha and VAX. Will work the same for any DEC > machine. > > This is a high quality cable that is tested and working. It is made > from DEC branded cable, not from a third party cable such as Graybar, etc. Not like I believe him, especially as this only appeared after my posts... -Toth From shumaker at att.net Sat Feb 10 18:55:47 2007 From: shumaker at att.net (Steve Shumaker) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:55:47 -0800 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 In-Reply-To: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> References: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070210164844.031e4cb0@att.net> wow Haven't seen one of these in many a day This was one of a handful of companies that repackaged sparc motherboards in custom enclosures for unique (read mostly govt) clients. Most of the systems were unmodified sparc motherboards with 4? sbus slots and all the trimmings. Besides this one, there as also an outfit in Pasadena that built one that looked a lot like one of the old Zenith laptops. I used one of those as a portable forensics machine for several years in the early 90s. It came with the ability to emulate both the PC DOS environment as well as the MAC OS. Was clunky but it worked like a dream and gave me Unix, DOS, and Mac all in the same box. s shumaker At 04:34 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>On 2/10/07, Richard wrote: >>>Never heard of one of these, but I was surprised to read it was a Sun? >>>Is this an x86 Sun or a ruggedized/portable SPARC or somesuch? >> From the look of the backpanel, it sure looks like a SPARC to me >>(unless there happens to be some circuit inside that converts Sun >>keyboard/mouse to PC - quite unlikely). > >Especially since those look to be Sbus slots. > >Peace... Sridhar From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sat Feb 10 19:08:37 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:08:37 -0600 Subject: FS: PDP-11/24 Message-ID: I have too many projects (including my 8/A and 11/23+) and not enough time, and don't want to keep my 11/24 sitting until the mice build nests in it. It seems to be alive (comes up to ODT on the console port) but I haven't tested it otherwise. 1 M7133 KDF11-UA 11/24 CPU with line clock and 2 SLU 1 M7134 KT-24 Unibus map, extension to 22 bits 1 M8743 (ECC RAM, either 512 Kb or 1 Mbyte) 2 M8722 (ECC Memory either 128 Kb or 256 Kb each) 1 M8188 FPF11 floating point processor 1 M7762 RL11 disk controller RL01/02 1 M7258 LP11 printer controller 1 DSD A2130-6 disk controller 4 M7819 DZ11-A eight RS232 ports each 1 M920 Unibus connector 1 M7297 RH11 MASSBUS Parity Control 1 M7296 RH11 MASSBUS Control & Status Registers 1 M7295 RH11A MASSBUS Bus Controller 1 M7294 RH11 MASSBUS Data Buffer and Control 3 M5904 RH11 MASSBUS Control Transceivers 1 M9300 Unibus terminator 1 M9312 Bootstrap Terminator Looking for a good home, please make a reasonable offer. Shipping may be expensive (that chassis/power supply is *heavy*). Can email pics. I'm in south central Missouri, zip 65775. thanks Charles From grant at stockly.com Sat Feb 10 19:10:09 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:10:09 -0900 Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <45CE4F8A.6000000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210155124.0486ad88@pop.1and1.com> At 02:04 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: > > Once something winds up in a museum or someone's > > collection, you can consider it lost essentially. > >With a few notable exceptions. > > > I commented to him about something in the past, and > > got back a hate filled response from him and would never buy > > anything from this guy. > >There is a VERY special place in Hell reserved for >"New Beginnings Antiques" > >I would be very surprised if CHM doesn't have a copy >of this. I'll see what I can do about getting it scanned. Of course I watch Antiques Road Show on PBS and get upset when a 200 year old item is only worth a few thousand... ; ) I think computers and computer related equipment are a little different. Sure it is nice to OWN an original but the goal shouldn't be to own exclusive control of information or buying something because of what it contains (with the intention of not sharing). I know of a few collectors who have manuals or other vintage computer related items who do not want them scanned or copied because it would reduce the value if their collection. It really annoys me but there is not much that I can do. ; ) I have other friends in the vintage computer community who own very valuable and rare items and have loaned them to me with the understanding that I wanted them to duplicate them. They were more concerned with shipping damage than anything else. ; ) For a while now I've owned by accident what amounts to the prototypes of the first computer controlled analog synth. I'd like to think the items are WORTH something being original, but that is NOT going to stop me from scanning all of the pages and PCBs. I made the Altair Kit with the same intentions. I was only somewhat worried that I would get hate mail from people accusing me of diluting Altairs or lowering the value of Altairs. So it was pretty funny when someone suggested that in 10 years my Altair might be worth more as there will be less in circulation. ; ) So far no hate mail! : ) I have provided so far 21 people with 100% functional Altair replicas, pending assembly... Out of the Altairs I've seen on ebay, it is easy to see that maybe 10% work. Thats good for a collector who wants it behind glass, bad for an experimenter. ; ) The kit comes with a guarantee that as a last resort the unit can be shipped to me with prepaid return shipping. It will be returned working. Oh well, enough for now... Grant From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 20:14:39 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:14:39 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702101814s640e571dh38c9c6fef8e3c8b6@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Why is it that there still has been just one patch released from Apple > (that > > one that fixed the QuickTime exploit) to address just one of the many > Month > > of Apple Bugs? > > This is terribly OT, but it's far easier for people like LMH to release > exploits than Apple (or, for that matter, Microsoft) to counter, test and > roll out fixes. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Never explain, never apologise. -- John Arbuthnot "Jackie" Fisher > ---------- > erm...well...this list does accept OT posts does it not? I think it says it does in the description... From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 20:17:03 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:17:03 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <2548.192.168.0.4.1171151399.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <2548.192.168.0.4.1171151399.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702101817w35ff22e5hfec2c1ca3e053b2@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Witchy wrote: > > > On Sat, February 10, 2007 23:40, Chris Sullivan wrote: > > > > On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Hex Star wrote: > > > >> Why is it that there still has been just one patch released from > >> Apple (that > >> one that fixed the QuickTime exploit) to address just one of the > >> many Month > >> of Apple Bugs? > > > > *looks around* > > > > You got some version of QuickTime that runs on an Apple IIgs or > > something? I thought this was "classiccmp." > > I'd not feed the troll if I were you ;) > > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > How exactly is it that others can post OT topics fine but when I do people jump to the conclusion that I'm a troll? It says in the description of this list that OT topics are OK...it even says in the email address: "General Discussion: On-Topic and _Off-Topic_ Posts" so what gives? :-( From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 10 20:22:39 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:22:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702101814s640e571dh38c9c6fef8e3c8b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702101814s640e571dh38c9c6fef8e3c8b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070210182202.X76956@shell.lmi.net> If they still haven't released the patches 10 years from now, please repost it. From grant at stockly.com Sat Feb 10 20:29:17 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:29:17 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> I thought you guys would get a kick out of this. No, I am not attempting to build a beowulf cluster... The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours today thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) Idle minds can be dangerous... It will have to wait on that because I am still deep in the hole with this crazy project... http://www.altairkit.com/images/070210-AltairTower_2172.jpg Grant From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 20:40:33 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:40:33 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <20070210182202.X76956@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702101814s640e571dh38c9c6fef8e3c8b6@mail.gmail.com> <20070210182202.X76956@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702101840k7b59b3e0u75688229ca4afacb@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If they still haven't released the patches 10 years from now, please > repost it. > am I the only one who sees the urgency in fixing those memory corruption and root privilege escalation exploits? how could one not see those as very bad exploits? perhaps people aren't that worried because it is believed apple will come through with the patches but is just taking their time to ensure the patches are done with quality? :-( From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 10 20:58:13 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:58:13 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? Message-ID: <45CE8645.7020905@bitsavers.org> > am I the only one who sees the urgency in fixing those memory corruption and > root privilege escalation exploits? What possible good is posting this HERE going to do? Why don't you raise this issue where someone who has any influence over what Apple does participates? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 10 21:01:38 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:01:38 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd Message-ID: <45CE8712.500@bitsavers.org> > The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. Like a fish needs a bicycle? http://techdigest.tv/pcmaclinux.jpg From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 10 21:12:10 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:12:10 -0500 Subject: Wanted: bulk decconnect 6 conductor flat cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702102212.10937.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 10 February 2007 19:45, Tothwolf wrote: > I've finally decided to go ahead and start making MMJ cables again > after all. Ok, I've gotta ask... Why not just buy a 1000' spool of silver satin 6cond. phone cable? The only difference between the small amount of decconnect cable and silver satin cable I've seen is the color of the cable, and the DEC part number printed on the cable... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 10 21:18:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:18:34 -0600 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Grant Stockly wrote: > I thought you guys would get a kick out of this. > > No, I am not attempting to build a beowulf cluster... > > The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours > today thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) Surely you've then got an S100 card running Linux that happens to use an Altair as an I/O processor? Don't get me wrong, it's a cool enough project* (and very akin to the various coprocessors for the BBC micro which ran all sorts of software), but I'm not sure if I'd call it an Altair running Linux :-) * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something other than an x86 CPU? cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 10 21:18:46 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:18:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702101840k7b59b3e0u75688229ca4afacb@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702101814s640e571dh38c9c6fef8e3c8b6@mail.gmail.com> <20070210182202.X76956@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0702101840k7b59b3e0u75688229ca4afacb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070210191306.R76956@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Hex Star wrote: > am I the only one who sees the urgency in fixing those memory corruption and > root privilege escalation exploits? how could one not see those as very bad > exploits? perhaps people aren't that worried because it is believed apple > will come through with the patches but is just taking their time to ensure > the patches are done with quality? :-( Apple takes a while to respond to anything, and there will be consequences. 15 years ago, incidents of Mac virus problems were more common than PC. Apple did almost nothing about it, but the situation eventually reversed. There will be eventually be a resurgence of virus problems on Macs even if Apple does do the right things. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 10 21:20:37 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:20:37 -0500 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702102220.37395.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 10 February 2007 18:58, Richard wrote: > Never heard of one of these, but I was surprised to read it was a Sun? > Is this an x86 Sun or a ruggedized/portable SPARC or somesuch? >From the back, it looks like an Ultra 1 (the non-creator 3D version), in a special case. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 10 21:33:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:33:30 -0700 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45CE8E8A.2060009@jetnet.ab.ca> -- >> The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours >> today thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) -- > Surely you've then got an S100 card running Linux that happens to use an > Altair as an I/O processor? Well since this is a 8080 system with 1 K of memory, I don't expect to be able to run linux even with a 386 card. All I what to know is the T-shirt for sale? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Feb 10 21:36:07 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:36:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wanted: bulk decconnect 6 conductor flat cord In-Reply-To: <200702102212.10937.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702102212.10937.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 10 February 2007 19:45, Tothwolf wrote: >> I've finally decided to go ahead and start making MMJ cables again >> after all. > > Ok, I've gotta ask... > > Why not just buy a 1000' spool of silver satin 6cond. phone cable? The > only difference between the small amount of decconnect cable and silver > satin cable I've seen is the color of the cable, and the DEC part number > printed on the cable... Most silver satin cord is 28 AWG and not 26 AWG. I managed to get my hands on some ivory colored 26 AWG 6-conductor flat cord, but I've gone though almost all of it. I also want to compete with this guy directly, which means I need to find some real DECconnect wire as he did. If I'd seen that spool before he did, I'd have certainly bought it... -Toth From grant at stockly.com Sat Feb 10 22:00:39 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:00:39 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com> At 06:18 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >Grant Stockly wrote: >>I thought you guys would get a kick out of this. >>No, I am not attempting to build a beowulf cluster... >>The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours >>today thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) > >Surely you've then got an S100 card running Linux that happens to use an >Altair as an I/O processor? > >Don't get me wrong, it's a cool enough project* (and very akin to the >various coprocessors for the BBC micro which ran all sorts of software), >but I'm not sure if I'd call it an Altair running Linux :-) > >* Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something other >than an x86 CPU? Fellow cctalker Rich Cini just ruined my evening... I forgot about an easy solution. Wire a PC/104 SBC into an S-100 card. http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts3400-spec-p.php Like I needed to be spending money right now! Ahhh!!! In order to not be a complete joke, I would have a CPLD inserting wait states and at least having a 2SIO in there. Who knows, maybe an ISA to S-100 bridge like this could be used with a real Altair Disk subsystem to make disk images? You are right though, putting a 386 SBC inside of an Altair is just like saying a toaster can "run linux". Maybe I'll load Windows 95 on it. ; ) The front panel would have to function too. The CPLD might have to relocate the memory space and possibly also emulate DMA to make it work. Any one know of any good 8bit VGA cards? ; ) Grant From grant at stockly.com Sat Feb 10 22:07:02 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:07:02 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE8E8A.2060009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210190558.03bf3aa8@pop.1and1.com> At 06:33 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >-- >>>The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours >>>today thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) >-- >>Surely you've then got an S100 card running Linux that happens to use an >>Altair as an I/O processor? >Well since this is a 8080 system with 1 K of memory, I don't expect to >be able to run linux even with a 386 card. >All I what to know is the T-shirt for sale? Medium Vic-20 Computer Advertisement 1980's TShirt Item number: 8420084275[] That ebay seller has a lot of cool shirts. Grant From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Feb 10 22:12:43 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE8712.500@bitsavers.org> References: <45CE8712.500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Al Kossow wrote: > > The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. > > Like a fish needs a bicycle? > > http://techdigest.tv/pcmaclinux.jpg He's probably on this list. Attn, Jay! I emailed you about that pic several months ago! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 10 22:18:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:18:22 -0600 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> This is OFF TOPIC, end this thread please. Jay From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 22:38:08 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:38:08 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something other > than an x86 CPU? You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 10 22:56:57 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:56:57 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:38 PM -0500 2/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Jules Richardson wrote: >>* Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something >>other than an x86 CPU? > >You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. > >Peace... Sridhar ELKS will run on a 286, right? IIRC, I've got a 286 S-100 Bus CPU card (I know I have a 80186 card). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 11 00:06:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:06:52 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <45CE41FC.23003.256E9CD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2007 at 17:29, Grant Stockly wrote: > The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours today > thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) Idle minds can be > dangerous... It will have to wait on that because I am still deep in the > hole with this crazy project... Well, with a K or two of memory and a bunch of disk storage, it should be possible to write a (heavily paged) emulator. Speed would be in the geological-era range, but it could be done... Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 11 00:16:55 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:16:55 -0700 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE41FC.23003.256E9CD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE41FC.23003.256E9CD9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CEB4D7.80709@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Feb 2007 at 17:29, Grant Stockly wrote: > > >>The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. I spent the first few hours today >>thinking up an S-100 card with a 386 processor. : ) Idle minds can be >>dangerous... It will have to wait on that because I am still deep in the >>hole with this crazy project... > > > Well, with a K or two of memory and a bunch of disk storage, it > should be possible to write a (heavily paged) emulator. Speed would > be in the geological-era range, but it could be done... > > Cheers, > Chuck Speaking of emulation, The 8080 was emulated using 2901 bit slices. Did anyone ever use that AMD design? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 11 00:22:20 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:38 PM -0500 2/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >Jules Richardson wrote: > >>* Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something > >>other than an x86 CPU? > > > >You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > ELKS will run on a 286, right? IIRC, I've got a 286 S-100 Bus CPU > card (I know I have a 80186 card). Hmm, how about a Motorola 68k S100 card? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 00:28:15 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:28:15 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CEB77F.1000200@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:38 PM -0500 2/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something >>> other than an x86 CPU? >> >> You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > ELKS will run on a 286, right? IIRC, I've got a 286 S-100 Bus CPU card > (I know I have a 80186 card). ELKS will run on an 8088 or better. You might be able to hack it to run on something older, if necessary. Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 11 00:26:07 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:26:07 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210211510.03ce71c8@pop.1and1.com> At 07:56 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >At 11:38 PM -0500 2/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>Jules Richardson wrote: >>>* Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something other >>>than an x86 CPU? >> >>You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. >> >>Peace... Sridhar > >ELKS will run on a 286, right? IIRC, I've got a 286 S-100 Bus CPU card (I >know I have a 80186 card). Elks requires an 8088 minimum. I'm not sure elks would be a good choice because development seems to be dead and there is hardly any support. It would be a lot better to use a 68010, 020, or 386. Of course, 68k linux is getting pretty dead too. : ( Grant From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 00:35:03 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:35:03 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CEB917.3050107@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 11:38 PM -0500 2/10/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something >>>> other than an x86 CPU? >>> You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. >>> >>> Peace... Sridhar >> ELKS will run on a 286, right? IIRC, I've got a 286 S-100 Bus CPU >> card (I know I have a 80186 card). > > Hmm, how about a Motorola 68k S100 card? Why bother? I'll bet you could hack ELKS to run on an 8080 if you put your mind to it. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 00:37:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:37:27 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/07, David Griffith wrote: > Hmm, how about a Motorola 68k S100 card? We had some of those at Software Results that we used in a prototype "network node" project that was never released (think a cross between a terminal server and CompuServe's later X.25 "nodes" and that's kinda close)... we had S-100 boxes w/several SRAM boards, many serial port boards, and a Godbout 68K CPU board. One could easily port Minix from the MMU-less Amiga (A500/A1000/A2000) to it, or drop a 68010 in there and go with a demand-paged VM scheme and "real" UNIX. A 68K-family processor w/MMU might be tough in an S-100 form-factor, but MMU-less should be easy; just add disk controller and go. Did anyone make S-100 SCSI? One could roll ones own, but that's a different level of expense. -ethan From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 11 00:40:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:40:06 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE41FC.23003.256E9CD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210213527.04194688@pop.1and1.com> >Well, with a K or two of memory and a bunch of disk storage, it >should be possible to write a (heavily paged) emulator. Speed would >be in the geological-era range, but it could be done... Do any of you remember OS X booting on a Macintosh Centris 650? 25MHz 68040 I think it was running debian linux and pearpc? http://mactalk.com.au/articles/68kpanther/ Interesting. : ) Anyone know if it ever finished booting? I can't tell! Grant From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 11 00:46:09 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:46:09 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> >Did anyone make S-100 SCSI? One could roll ones own, but that's a >different level of expense. The 5380, 3 resistor packs, a '138, couple latches, and about 10 square inches of an S-100 breadboard card. Grant From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Feb 11 00:42:00 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:42:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702110655.BAA08166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> It may well turn out to be not what you want, but it might be worth >> at least a look-in. If it seems close but not quite there, I'll be >> happy to correspond about it > Do you happen to know if GNU tar adds extensions that aren't in your > version Yes. Neither my tar nor GNU tar is a subset of the other. (For example, my tar supports files larger than 8GB, which I was somewhat surprised to find GNU tar didn't - and GNU tar has some kind of attempt at incremental backups which I don't understand; mine makes no attempt at that. I also got mine to pass all the static Zwicky torture tests and behave reasonably in the face of the dynamic ones, which GNU tar didn't. That was some years back, though.) > (or "original tar", whatever that may mean)? I suppose I'd like to > stick to GNU or GNU-compatible tools where possible... My tar tries to understand some of the GNU tar private header formats (specifically, the long-name and sparse-file ones) but, since I was unable to find any documentation on them, I probably don't have them all and quite possibly don't have the ones I do handle quite right. But if you have a thing for the GNU name, or GPL licensing, my tar probably is not for you. > If anyone has any suggestions for good ISP-independent email services > then let me know; the reason I've used yahoo for years is so that I > don't get tied to a single ISP for receiving email, but there are > doubtless better offerings around... Probably. My approach to that is to run my own mailserver (static IPs and no administrative prohibitions on mailservers are non-optional to me when selecting a connectivity provider). Not to say that that approach is suitable for everyone, of course - I've seen it said often enough that there are good mail-handling services out there, but as I've never wanted one, I've never looked into any in detail. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Feb 11 00:56:18 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:56:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I can't think where you could buy a CD press since it is all > controled by the BIG music industy. All? Consider all the people pressing data CDs.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 00:58:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:58:39 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > > >Did anyone make S-100 SCSI? One could roll ones own, but that's a > >different level of expense. > > The 5380, 3 resistor packs, a '138, couple latches, and about 10 square > inches of an S-100 breadboard card. Right... the SCSI chip is cheap enough (and supported under Minix, probably, since there were several 3rd party Amiga controllers with the 5380), but the real expense is the breadboard card. -ethan From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 11 01:18:48 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:18:48 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> At 09:58 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >On 2/11/07, Grant Stockly wrote: >> >> >Did anyone make S-100 SCSI? One could roll ones own, but that's a >> >different level of expense. >> >>The 5380, 3 resistor packs, a '138, couple latches, and about 10 square >>inches of an S-100 breadboard card. > >Right... the SCSI chip is cheap enough (and supported under Minix, >probably, since there were several 3rd party Amiga controllers with >the 5380), but the real expense is the breadboard card. Really? I guess I don't know where to get those. I've got one and I just keep reusing it. They'd be $20 plus shipping if were to make some. Any interest? Of course, if I made a SCSI card they would be $10 without parts. (not full size S-100) ; ) SCSI is kind of dead, but it would be a fun card to make... Grant From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 11 01:22:43 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 02:22:43 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2007, at 1:58 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >Did anyone make S-100 SCSI? One could roll ones own, but that's a >> >different level of expense. >> >> The 5380, 3 resistor packs, a '138, couple latches, and about 10 >> square >> inches of an S-100 breadboard card. > > Right... the SCSI chip is cheap enough (and supported under Minix, > probably, since there were several 3rd party Amiga controllers with > the 5380), but the real expense is the breadboard card. I've got a few tubes of 33C93s in the closet.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 01:51:07 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 02:51:07 -0500 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media In-Reply-To: <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45CECAEB.7020803@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> I can't think where you could buy a CD press since it is all >> controled by the BIG music industy. > > All? Consider all the people pressing data CDs.... They show up on ebay from time to time. They don't go cheap. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 11 01:57:25 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:57:25 -0700 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media - MMI PALS's In-Reply-To: <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >>I can't think where you could buy a CD press since it is all >>controled by the BIG music industy. > All? Consider all the people pressing data CDs.... I consider it more like people zapping a CD that is good only for a few days... until the NEXT crash or version of windows, and your data is not supported anymore. :( Also does anybody have the orginal MMI PAL data books? I belive I can still get pals cheap from BGmicro ( PAL16R8ACN MMI) for $5.60 for a tube of 20 so I might like to do whole cpmputer with them. For that I need the orginal hardware programing information. I belive they need they look like 512x8 FUSE ROM for programing but with out the orginal data sheets I have no way of finding out. I simple fuse rom programmer hope to be able to build here. PS. I also found the the Fortran code for the PALASM and some DOS software but the databooks don't seem to be on the web. While my design is not that important, I don't see the databooks under bitsavers and that may be important to somebody else. From dbethke at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 10 22:52:28 2007 From: dbethke at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Bethke) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:52:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Thermal Printer 5181001 Message-ID: <20070211045228.59781.qmail@web82510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I wonder if you still have the printer and what is the price? Dennis Howell Mountain Retreat Fonda and Dennis Bethke PO Box 731 277 Luring Pines Drive Angwin, CA 94508 Phone 707 965-3057 FAX?? 707 965-2835 dennisbethke at msn.com www.vrbo.com/21031 www.winecountrymall.biz ? From ntp71 at ptd.net Sat Feb 10 23:23:03 2007 From: ntp71 at ptd.net (Neal Piskorick) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:23:03 -0500 Subject: Heath ET-3400 Trainer Simulator SW Message-ID: <000501c74d9c$b448df20$0201a8c0@NTP> do you have a copy of the trainer.zip file please need much neal From bear at typewritten.org Sun Feb 11 02:53:04 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:53:04 -0800 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 In-Reply-To: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> References: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <860F79E4-377C-4325-87DA-1E5555912748@typewritten.org> On Feb 10, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> From the look of the backpanel, it sure looks like a SPARC to me >> (unless there happens to be some circuit inside that converts Sun >> keyboard/mouse to PC - quite unlikely). > > Especially since those look to be Sbus slots. It's an Ultra 1 (non-E) behind a flat-panel display. ok bear From bear at typewritten.org Sun Feb 11 02:53:04 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:53:04 -0800 Subject: Portable Sun on ebay # 250082537181 In-Reply-To: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> References: <45CE64A2.1020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <860F79E4-377C-4325-87DA-1E5555912748@typewritten.org> On Feb 10, 2007, at 4:34 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> From the look of the backpanel, it sure looks like a SPARC to me >> (unless there happens to be some circuit inside that converts Sun >> keyboard/mouse to PC - quite unlikely). > > Especially since those look to be Sbus slots. It's an Ultra 1 (non-E) behind a flat-panel display. ok bear From cc at corti-net.de Sun Feb 11 03:41:06 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:41:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix terminals In-Reply-To: <200702101712.l1AHC5k05307@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200702101712.l1AHC5k05307@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 djg at pdp8.net wrote: > I have a 4010 and didn't see any mention of this in the manual. Do you > know if it took special cards? The 4010 has a bus that normally contains the three cards TC-1, TC-2 and TC-3, along with the fourth card at the left (but that isn't connected to the bus on the backplane the same way). You can extend the bus and hook up whatever you like, there's a detailed description of the bus signals in the manual. > On the 4010 you can exceed the draw rate for stored vectors when running > at 9600 baud and you don't sent the unchanged bytes in the coordinates. > I was trying reduce the draw time to make a better demo and found that > long vectors wouldn't line up properly at 9600 when several of the bytes > didn't need to be sent. That's true, I too have made the same experience. Running gnuplot (or anything else) at 9600 baud will produce garbage on the screen. You need to run the terminal at 4800 baud. Another unrelated question: The 4010 I got needs an awfully long time until it will fully erase the screen (at least 20 minutes). When it's cold it will only erase the center in the shape of a (distorted) circle, the corners won't be erased. Is this a typical sign of a used CRT? I know the main heater and cathode (for the writing beam) are fine, I suspect the collimation electrodes or the flood gun. Does anyone have experiences with that problem, is there any cure (e.g. a longer flooding time) ? Christian From grant at stockly.com Sat Feb 10 21:46:13 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:46:13 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE8712.500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210182518.03be49c0@pop.1and1.com> At 06:01 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: > > The ultimate Altair needs to run Linux. > >Like a fish needs a bicycle? > >http://techdigest.tv/pcmaclinux.jpg Yes! Now you get it! I LOVE that picture. : ) I thought about writing a bootloader and 6850 driver for Linux-8086 and running my CompPro CPU 8085/8086 card, but it wouldn't be as useful. To top it all off, how about loading the kernel with a Tarbel cassette card? ; ) Grant From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Feb 11 04:30:18 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:30:18 +0000 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CEF03A.4020701@gjcp.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something other >> than an x86 CPU? > > You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. You could definitely get UZI to run, if you had a Z80 card. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 08:19:05 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:19:05 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CEF03A.4020701@gjcp.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <45CEF03A.4020701@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45CF25D9.8020702@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something >>> other than an x86 CPU? >> >> You could probably bodge ELKS to run on an Altair. > > You could definitely get UZI to run, if you had a Z80 card. The point was to get Linux running. ELKS is a lot closer to Linux than UZI is. Anyway, it would really surprise me if one weren't able to port ELKS to 8080. I believe someone was already working on porting it to Z80. Peace... Sridhar From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 11 09:23:04 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:23:04 -0500 Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <45CE2B1A.1080409@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200702111521.l1BFL6o1013471@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:29:14 -0800, jim wrote: >I commented to him about something in the past, and got back a >hate filled response from him and would never buy anything from >this guy. I called about a year make that closer to two years back, asking about listing some of their auction pictures in an IBMcollectble gallery I was building. I was told off in no uncertain terms by some woman. when I asked to speak to the owner she made it clear to me he (whoever he was) had no wish to talk to me about anything or would allow their photos to be published even if it was free or educational, which of course I made it clear it was. Shortly there after I got a call from someone who would not identify himself, wanting to know where I got my pictures, and what did I think I was doing with the website. I told him of my goal is to promote the collecting of ComputerCollectable into a mainstream hobby. I had hoped to help enlighten other collectors as to what was available, possibly resulting in a price guide on the subject someday. I built IBMcollectables as a free website where like minded collectors could share pictures of their collections. This was to test the waters for a larger project I had in mind including all Computer related collectables. Whoever it was, hung up abruptly when I started asking him questions. Shortly there after I noticed Newbegin-antiques started watermarking their pictures and putting what I conceder to be a pointed, do not use my pictures or comments statements in their eBay listings. I can only assume he/she/it or whoever is behind newbegin-antiques was not happy about my idea of "Collectables been seen and sold online" gallery I was working on at the time. No one else has ever expressed displeasure to the idea, but then again I have not seen much interest so have been directing my efforts elsewhere. I do get the ocasional email wanting to know what items are worth, I assist them in IDing them ans suggest they put them on ebay if they want a better guess of their value than I could make. Since then I have made it a point to avoid newbegin-antiques, when I see his listings on eBay, it remind me that there are some dealers that do not want their current and potential customers to know what is available and what it has sold for in the past. They want people to think they have the last or only example of something truely priceless and do not want to see me continue the project at least not with any prices listed. I guess when one takes an old collectable and declairs it an antique or better yet frames it, the resulting item becomes new art, with a fresh copyright. Some feel that truely rare items looses a little bit of their uniqueness, rareness or perceived value every time they are seen by the public and should be hidden in collections. As long as I am so far off topic, again today, there is a 1941 IBM electric typewriter on eBay this week. I have corresponded with the seller and suggested she put it on eBay. The IBM Model 4 was I believe the first electric typewriter to use a proportional spaced type font and was the wordprocessor if its time. "Her father had it in his office forever" on my suggestion the photos were taken of it as-is and as far as I know it has not been cleaned. Here is the listing and a tinyurl to it: Vintage IBM 1941 ELECTROMATIC #04 ELECTRIC TYPEWRITER Item number: 180084309306 http://tinyurl.com/35bpsx Just my thoughts on a sunday morning .... The other Bob From rickb at bensene.com Sun Feb 11 10:22:10 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:22:10 -0800 Subject: Tektronix terminals Message-ID: Christian wrote: >Another unrelated question: The 4010 I got needs an awfully long time >until it will fully erase the screen (at least 20 minutes). When it's cold >it will only erase the center in the shape of a (distorted) circle, the >corners won't be erased. Is this a typical sign of a used CRT? I know the >main heater and cathode (for the writing beam) are fine, I suspect the >collimation electrodes or the flood gun. Does anyone have experiences with >that problem, is there any cure (e.g. a longer flooding time) ? I used a lot of 4010s and 4014s in my days at Tektronix, and saw this type of problem on numerous occasions. The primary terminals for the Control Data Cyber 73 (and later, an added Cyber 175), and Vax 11/780 (VMS during the day, BSD 4.x Unix at night (for the hacks to play with), intermittently) were 4010s and 4014s. There were user areas with a bunch of these terminals grouped together. These user area terminals were very heavily used. Most people didn't have terminals at their desk in those days. The flood system that erases the screen has a limited lifetime. I know there was some adjustment inside both of the terminals (but you'd need a service manual...perhaps bitsavers?) that would adjust the flood current. However, if adjusting this didn't work, they'd check a couple of test points on one of the circuit boards, and if all the numbers came back right, the factory service guys would not fuss with it anymore, and start right away on replacing the tube. A good factory service person could replace the tube in a 4010 (took longer for a 4014) in about 20 minutes. My guess would be that, given the many, many years this terminal has been around, that the tube is just plain worn out. It is a possibility that some of the components in the flood drive circuitry have changed characteristics over the many years...resistors and capacitors can do this, as well as active components due to heat and power cycling. I'm sure that there's service documentation or schematics online somewhere. If bitsavers doesn't have it, I know that there is a website dedicated to Tektronix equipment, and has scans of lots of manuals and such, but can't recall the URL (don't have it bookmarked). Such material would at least let you know if the tube is tired, or if perhaps something else in the flood drive circuitry has gone astray that might be repairable. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 11 10:57:47 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:57:47 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702110655.BAA08166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> <200702110655.BAA08166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45CF4B0B.6090304@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >>> It may well turn out to be not what you want, but it might be worth >>> at least a look-in. If it seems close but not quite there, I'll be >>> happy to correspond about it >> Do you happen to know if GNU tar adds extensions that aren't in your >> version > > Yes. Neither my tar nor GNU tar is a subset of the other. (For > example, my tar supports files larger than 8GB, which I was somewhat > surprised to find GNU tar didn't Recent versions at least do; I wrote some which were around 14GB a few weeks ago and they read back and verified against original data OK (no errors, missing files etc.) It's one of the things I dislike about tar in general though; I'm never sure when I'm going to hit either file size or file path length limits. Other than that though it's generally better than the alternatives in that the format's documented well and it's simple enough to write an extraction util in the unlikely event that one didn't exist for platform foobar. > - and GNU tar has some kind of attempt > at incremental backups which I don't understand; mine makes no attempt > at that. Yeah, I've never touched any of that either... > But if you have a thing for the GNU name, or GPL licensing, my tar > probably is not for you. Oh, not at all... but with traditional UNIX vendors dying out, GNU tar seems likely to be the one that will go the distance and still be around in decades to come - so any tar offering from other sources really needs to be "GNU compatible" (at least in terms of archive writing; reading is probably slightly less of an issue) > [ email ] > Probably. My approach to that is to run my own mailserver (static IPs > and no administrative prohibitions on mailservers are non-optional to > me when selecting a connectivity provider). Not to say that that > approach is suitable for everyone, of course - I've seen it said often > enough that there are good mail-handling services out there, but as > I've never wanted one, I've never looked into any in detail. Fair enough. I'm currently not a fan of running my own server because I'm spending half my time thousands of miles away from where it would be - and despite remote access being very good for various OSes, there are times when it's useful being able to physically sit in front of the hardware. One day that won't be the case and it probably will make sense to run my own, but in the meantime I might consider moving to something else that's location-independent (hotmail and gmail won't be any better than yahoo, though) cheers Jules > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 10:58:20 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:58:20 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media - MMI PALS's In-Reply-To: <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702110858p7c84a989y8eebb257c8a5a918@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, woodelf wrote: > > Also does anybody have the orginal MMI PAL data books? > I belive I can still get pals cheap from BGmicro ( PAL16R8ACN MMI) > for $5.60 for a tube of 20 so I might like to do whole cpmputer with them. > For that I need the orginal hardware programing information. I > belive they need they look like 512x8 FUSE ROM for programing but > with out the orginal data sheets I have no way of finding out. Looks like the 16R8 has 8 inputs, 8 D/Q outputs with feedback, 1 clock input, and 1 output enable input. Looks like there are 32 columns (8x input True/False plus 8x D/Q feedback True/False) and 64 rows (8x product terms into each D/Q output) for a total of 2048 fuses. So I think that would be 256x8, not 512x8. -Glen From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 11 11:04:41 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:04:41 -0600 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> Grant Stockly wrote: >> * Although if you're going to bodge Linux, why not use something other >> than an x86 CPU? > > Fellow cctalker Rich Cini just ruined my evening... I forgot about an > easy solution. Wire a PC/104 SBC into an S-100 card. > > http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts3400-spec-p.php Interesting... others have mentioned the 68k line... what about something really oddball though, like m88k or ARM? :) > Any one know of any good 8bit VGA cards? ; ) Hmm, in the PC world Trident did an ISA one (8900?), and I'm pretty sure Paradise did too. Possibly Oak's offering was also 8 bit. Oh, regarding the SCSI question, most 8 bitters didn't bother with a complete SCSI chip; it can be done with only ten or so LS logic ICs anyway, providing blistering performance isn't needed (and lets face it, no performance is going to be blistering if there's an 8-bit CPU handling all the I/O, dedicated SCSI chip or not :) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 11 11:31:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:31:22 -0700 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media - MMI PALS's In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702110858p7c84a989y8eebb257c8a5a918@mail.gmail.com> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> <1e1fc3e90702110858p7c84a989y8eebb257c8a5a918@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CF52EA.8060702@jetnet.ab.ca> Glen Slick wrote: > > Looks like the 16R8 has 8 inputs, 8 D/Q outputs with feedback, 1 clock > input, and 1 output enable input. Looks like there are 32 columns (8x > input True/False plus 8x D/Q feedback True/False) and 64 rows (8x > product terms into each D/Q output) for a total of 2048 fuses. So I > think that would be 256x8, not 512x8. At 2 am I am not great with my sums. I found what I was looking for with TI PALS and programing them is not that easy since you need switch between +5V, 0V, +10.5V and High Impedance ... other than that no problem. I can use pals but I don't expect them to reduce my logic as much as I expected since I need 16L8 rather than 16R8 another mistake make early in the morning after I found some data sheets. From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 11:34:39 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:34:39 -0600 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com> <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <9e2403920702110934i1a44bf5bvc4a01abc82a0be4d@mail.gmail.com> Jules, On 2/11/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, in the PC world Trident did an ISA one (8900?), and I'm pretty sure > Paradise did too. Possibly Oak's offering was also 8 bit. > The Trident 8900C and 8900D were both 16-bit. I don't know about the earlier cards, but if there's an 8-bit Trident 8900-series, I'd love to find one! ...Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 11 11:56:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:56:56 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com>, <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45CEE868.25138.27F8B3C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:04, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, in the PC world Trident did an ISA one (8900?), and I'm pretty sure > Paradise did too. Possibly Oak's offering was also 8 bit. Yes and yes--and don't forget the Video 7 VGA Wonder--with two connectors on the bracket (9 and 15 pin). There were also a couple of EGA adapters that could handle some of the VGA modes (Everex comes to mind), but not the pallettes. > Oh, regarding the SCSI question, most 8 bitters didn't bother with a complete > SCSI chip; it can be done with only ten or so LS logic ICs anyway, providing > blistering performance isn't needed (and lets face it, no performance is going > to be blistering if there's an 8-bit CPU handling all the I/O, dedicated SCSI > chip or not :) There we differ-most of my inventory of 8 bit SCSI cards have an LSI IC as the heart. Only one or two (e.g. the Iomega Bernoilli adapter) use SSI. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 11 12:25:36 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:25:36 -0700 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CEE868.25138.27F8B3C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com>, <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> <45CEE868.25138.27F8B3C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CF5FA0.7040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes and yes--and don't forget the Video 7 VGA Wonder--with two > connectors on the bracket (9 and 15 pin). There were also a couple > of EGA adapters that could handle some of the VGA modes (Everex comes > to mind), but not the pallettes. > Where there any 8 bit monochrome VGA's? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Feb 11 12:57:54 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:57:54 +0000 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702111802.l1BI1Op7078037@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702111802.l1BI1Op7078037@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8EC12FD4-DA1C-44E3-82F4-25C1E5CB0598@microspot.co.uk> I've been listening in on this thread (though I skipped a few) and am wondering how you can tell whether a CD or DVD has corruption which is being corrected or whether it is pristine. If I can tell, then maybe when there is corruption I could re-record the data before it becomes unreadable. Of course I can also keep multiple copies on different sites. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 11 12:44:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:44:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210155124.0486ad88@pop.1and1.com> from "Grant Stockly" at Feb 10, 7 04:10:09 pm Message-ID: [...] An aside... About 15 years ago I managed to buy a pretty rare manual (HP71B service manual) still in the original shrinkwrap. I amazed other collectors preseent by immediately ripping of the shrinkwrap and starting to read the manual. But of course I'd bought the manual to learn how the HP71 works and how to repair it, not to have some object to put in a glass case. > ) I have other friends in the vintage computer community who own very > valuable and rare items and have loaned them to me with the understanding > that I wanted them to duplicate them. They were more concerned with > shipping damage than anything else. ; ) This is exactly how I feel. I have some fairly rare documentation, and I don't feel it's value to me would be reduced if it was scaned and made available to others. But I don't have a scanner, and don't have anything I could connect one to. I've always found fellow classic computer types to be a very honest bunch. I know full well that if I lent a menual to one of them they'd return it to me in the same condition that I lent it out in. But alas the postabl 'service, at least in the UK, is not something I'd trust with an irreplacable manual. So alas I can't think of an obivous way to share said manuals... [...] > pending assembly... Out of the Altairs I've seen on ebay, it is easy to > see that maybe 10% work. Thats good for a collector who wants it behind > glass, bad for an experimenter. ; ) The kit comes with a guarantee that Well, unless the buyer is the sort of experimenter who likes faultfinding and repairing things :-) -tony From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:12:58 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:12:58 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Jay West wrote: > > This is OFF TOPIC, end this thread please. > > Jay > > > huh? but the list description says it's for on topic and off topic discussions...you even said that to me...so what's wrong with discussing this? :-/ Allowed Posts Cctalk subscribers may post both on-topic and off-topic messages. From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:14:26 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:14:26 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <20070210191306.R76956@shell.lmi.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702110034.l1B0Ykf5028782@floodgap.com> <5dc6fd9e0702101814s640e571dh38c9c6fef8e3c8b6@mail.gmail.com> <20070210182202.X76956@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0702101840k7b59b3e0u75688229ca4afacb@mail.gmail.com> <20070210191306.R76956@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111114m1ec3d4c5o43ff9d1d44c04836@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Hex Star wrote: > > am I the only one who sees the urgency in fixing those memory corruption > and > > root privilege escalation exploits? how could one not see those as very > bad > > exploits? perhaps people aren't that worried because it is believed > apple > > will come through with the patches but is just taking their time to > ensure > > the patches are done with quality? :-( > > Apple takes a while to respond to anything, and there will be > consequences. > 15 years ago, incidents of Mac virus problems were more common than PC. > Apple did almost nothing about it, but the situation eventually reversed. > There will be eventually be a resurgence of virus problems on Macs even if > Apple does do the right things. > > > how so? Mac OS X is based on linux...so if viruses came back for macs wouldn't that mean that they also were coming out for linux as well which I don't think will ever happen due to how it's structured security wise? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:18:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:18:37 -0500 Subject: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem? Message-ID: Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have some LCD monitors that I need to scope out power for (+5 @ 2A, +12 @ 1A), a nixie-tube panel DVM, and a couple of IBM modem frontpanels. >From googling the IBM model number (7861-015), they appear to be from a 9600bps 4-wire leased-line modem. I picked them up because they have a 20-key keypad with double-shot hex letters (0-9, A-F) that look really handy for attaching to an 1802 or similar, and a 1x16 char "british flag" VFD. What I'd really like is to get my hands on a schematic to skip the step of reverse-engineering the VFD drivers. Does anyone on the list have any docs on IBM modems at that level of detail? Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 11 13:19:11 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:19:11 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <200702110655.BAA08166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> <200702110655.BAA08166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45CF6C2F.7050700@jbrain.com> >> If anyone has any suggestions for good ISP-independent email services >> then let me know; the reason I've used yahoo for years is so that I >> don't get tied to a single ISP for receiving email, but there are >> doubtless better offerings around... >> > > Probably. My approach to that is to run my own mailserver (static IPs > and no administrative prohibitions on mailservers are non-optional to > me when selecting a connectivity provider). Not to say that that > approach is suitable for everyone, of course - I've seen it said often > enough that there are good mail-handling services out there, but as > I've never wanted one, I've never looked into any in detail. > I'm not sure if my solution is useful to you, but I use an internal mailserver at the house. However, it can;t be primary, since it is only on residential broadband. So, I use fetchmail to grab my mail from the current ISP hosting my jbrain.com domain. Benefits: * My mail sits on my box. o No worrying about hosting providers going belly up and ditching my mail (been there, done that) o I can set up local spam rules and such once, no matter how many times I switch ISPs or mail providers. o I can run webmail on my local box, exported to the greater Internet, which allows me to read email while on the road without the ads. SquirrelMail is nice for this, though there are others. o I can read via elm on the local box. GUI email apps are nice, but sometimes a terminal session and elm will get through when nothing else will (or be reasonably speedy) * I can switch ISPs/hosting companies at will. All I need from them is a POP3 mailbox * It was easy to setup, in Linux/UNIX, anyway. UW IMAP, SquirrellMail, Fetchmail, are all pretty mature. I also use OpenVPN on the home network to tunnel into it for IMAP access when away from home, but you could open IMAP to the world if you were OK with that (I was not). Jim From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:22:38 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:22:38 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111122l2a6a645ao52e225b840aa6655@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > > On 2/10/07, Jay West wrote: > > > > This is OFF TOPIC, end this thread please. > > > > Jay > > > > > > > huh? but the list description says it's for on topic and off topic > discussions...you even said that to me...so what's wrong with discussing > this? :-/ > > Allowed Posts Cctalk subscribers may post both on-topic and off-topic > messages. > in fact...you indeed did say to me that off topic posts are indeed acceptable on this list when I inquired about having my membership approved so I'm confused as to why you're now saying the thread should stop because it's OT when you told me and have put in the list description for this list (this isn't cctech) that OT posts are OK...(I can provide the original email with headers as well too for proof that that was really said): Probably not approved because we tend to get busy and new join requests aren't always highest up on the list of fires we have to fight :) Ok... I will approve your list membership immediately - as soon as you tell me which list you want to be on. cctalk and cctech are the SAME list. You don't want to join both or you will get duplicate posts. The only difference is that any posts we feel are off topic are stripped from cctech before they go out. So with cctech you get nothing but strictly on-topic posts. On cctalk you get all those posts too, but you also get a bit of non-computer or off-topic banter posts amonst the listmembers. Please pick one and email me directly at jwest at classiccmp.org and I'll fix you up. Jay - Hide quoted text - ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Hex Star *To:* jwest at classiccmp.org ; cctech-owner at classiccmp.org *Sent:* Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:26 AM *Subject:* Why is my membership not being approved? :-( Hi, I've applied for membership to both the cctalk and cctech mailing lists a while ago and again tonight because I never got any confirmation as to whether or not my application for membership to those lists ever got approved or not...I'm assuming not as I don't believe I've gotten any emails from either list...can you please tell me why my memberships are not being approved? Perhaps you just forgot and would please be so kind as to approve my memberships for both lists? Thanks! :-) P.S. Sorry if you get this email twice, not sure which email address is the best one to reach you at..oh and the email address which I'm signing up with is the same one as I'm sending this email from ( hexstar at gmail.com) From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 11 13:38:26 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:38:26 -0500 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111114m1ec3d4c5o43ff9d1d44c04836@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <20070210191306.R76956@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0702111114m1ec3d4c5o43ff9d1d44c04836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702111438.26931.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 11 February 2007 14:14, Hex Star wrote: > how so? Mac OS X is based on linux Not even close. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 11 13:43:51 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:43:51 -0500 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 11 February 2007 14:12, Hex Star wrote: > On 2/10/07, Jay West wrote: > > This is OFF TOPIC, end this thread please. > > > > Jay > > huh? but the list description says it's for on topic and off topic > discussions...you even said that to me...so what's wrong with > discussing this? :-/ Would you post "why hasn't Apple released Macos patches" on a Windows mailing list that says it allows off-topic posts? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:44:46 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:44:46 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <45CE8645.7020905@bitsavers.org> References: <45CE8645.7020905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111144y30241db5l9581cbca5ed389f0@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > am I the only one who sees the urgency in fixing those memory corruption > and > > root privilege escalation exploits? > > What possible good is posting this HERE going to do? > > Why don't you raise this issue where someone who has any influence > over what Apple does participates? > > > I wanted to see if anyone else felt this was important...and since many users here have used macs for many many years I'm sure they have plenty of experience in this area of Apple...as for talking about it with someone who can influence what Apple does, I don't know of such a person...do you? I believe that Apple reads the various lists on the web and probably googles from time to time on the month of apple bugs to see the various discussions on it and as such I believe that if people here expressed concern over the exploits and wanting them to be patched that Apple may eventually read the posts and then there'd be one more reason for them to patch the exploits...thus my reason for posting this to this list...geese...never before have I ever seen a list policy so confusingly and conflictingly enforced! :-( From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:47:12 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:47:12 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <200702111438.26931.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <20070210191306.R76956@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0702111114m1ec3d4c5o43ff9d1d44c04836@mail.gmail.com> <200702111438.26931.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111147k3cbd647eq2ac77877f0b53df8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Sunday 11 February 2007 14:14, Hex Star wrote: > > how so? Mac OS X is based on linux > > Not even close. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > hmm? what do you mean not even close? OK so maybe it's based on Unix, not linux but it's still a good part of the *nix world is it not? I'm sure it is seeing as how with all the stuff they've opensourced (all of the *nix stuff)...it seems to be a good chunk of the OS, the only thing not opensourced is of course the gui side of OS X...if I'm still wrong please tell me why as it seems to me that OS X is a great part of *nix... From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 13:49:01 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:49:01 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Sunday 11 February 2007 14:12, Hex Star wrote: > > On 2/10/07, Jay West wrote: > > > This is OFF TOPIC, end this thread please. > > > > > > Jay > > > > huh? but the list description says it's for on topic and off topic > > discussions...you even said that to me...so what's wrong with > > discussing this? :-/ > > Would you post "why hasn't Apple released Macos patches" on a Windows > mailing list that says it allows off-topic posts? > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > maybe...if there were some people on there that expressed they had great experience in macs and simply worked with windows because their business required it (as often is the unfortunate case ;-) )...and since there are people here on this list with a great deal of experience with macs I thought that this list would be a good place to discuss this as they no doubt have some great experience with this side of Apple From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 11 14:30:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:30:21 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CF5FA0.7040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com>, <45CEE868.25138.27F8B3C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <45CF5FA0.7040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45CF0C5D.25558.28852D42@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:25, woodelf wrote: > Where there any 8 bit monochrome VGA's? It depends what you mean by "monochrome". For example, the Paradise cards had a switch setting that specified that you were driving a monochrome VGA monitor. But exclusively VGA (i.e. incapable of rendering on a color monitor), I don't think so. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 11 14:34:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:34:57 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com>, <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:49, Hex Star wrote: > maybe...if there were some people on there that expressed they had great > experience in macs and simply worked with windows because their business > required it (as often is the unfortunate case ;-) )...and since there are > people here on this list with a great deal of experience with macs I thought > that this list would be a good place to discuss this as they no doubt have > some great experience with this side of Apple Off-topic or on, the problem that I see with the original post is that it's complaining about something that the list members don't have any control over (unless there's someone in Apple management who hasn't yet rasied his hand). i.e., there's no information to be had, nor any course of action that can be taken. The best we can do is commiserate with you. As far as QT on a PC goes, I'll install it when I really need it, then unstall it--it plays hob with file associations (no matter what I tell the setup program) on my system. My 20 mills, anyway. Cheers, Chuck From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 14:46:27 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:46:27 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:49, Hex Star wrote: > > > maybe...if there were some people on there that expressed they had great > > experience in macs and simply worked with windows because their business > > required it (as often is the unfortunate case ;-) )...and since there > are > > people here on this list with a great deal of experience with macs I > thought > > that this list would be a good place to discuss this as they no doubt > have > > some great experience with this side of Apple > > Off-topic or on, the problem that I see with the original post is > that it's complaining about something that the list members don't > have any control over (unless there's someone in Apple management who > hasn't yet rasied his hand). i.e., there's no information to be had, > nor any course of action that can be taken. The best we can do is > commiserate with you. > > As far as QT on a PC goes, I'll install it when I really need it, > then unstall it--it plays hob with file associations (no matter what > I tell the setup program) on my system. > > My 20 mills, anyway. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > well the point was to have people say based on their experience with Apple whether or not it's likely the exploits will be patched and if so soon or not for a while or never, etc and for people to express their concerns as to how important the patching of these exploits may or may not be to them so that if Apple ever does stumble upon this thread they'd hopefully see that there's just one more group of people who feel it's important to have these bad exploits patched up in a timely and professional manner :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 14:47:33 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:47:33 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111247r35ad9d68kf02b63a5d9191157@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > > On 2/11/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:49, Hex Star wrote: > > > > > maybe...if there were some people on there that expressed they had > > great > > > experience in macs and simply worked with windows because their > > business > > > required it (as often is the unfortunate case ;-) )...and since there > > are > > > people here on this list with a great deal of experience with macs I > > thought > > > that this list would be a good place to discuss this as they no doubt > > have > > > some great experience with this side of Apple > > > > Off-topic or on, the problem that I see with the original post is > > that it's complaining about something that the list members don't > > have any control over (unless there's someone in Apple management who > > hasn't yet rasied his hand). i.e., there's no information to be had, > > nor any course of action that can be taken. The best we can do is > > commiserate with you. > > > > As far as QT on a PC goes, I'll install it when I really need it, > > then unstall it--it plays hob with file associations (no matter what > > I tell the setup program) on my system. > > > > My 20 mills, anyway. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > well the point was to have people say based on their experience with Apple > whether or not it's likely the exploits will be patched and if so soon or > not for a while or never, etc and for people to express their concerns as to > how important the patching of these exploits may or may not be to them so > that if Apple ever does stumble upon this thread they'd hopefully see that > there's just one more group of people who feel it's important to have these > bad exploits patched up in a timely and professional manner :-) > of course I don't expect immediate changes in Apple or some definitive data on this from this list...who would? I just thought as said in the above post... From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 11 14:49:42 2007 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:49:42 -0800 Subject: Shameless Plug: Unisite offered Message-ID: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, A brief shameless plug: I've just posted one of my Data I/O Unisite programming systems for sale on That Auction Site. A seller search for the ID 'bftbell' will turn it up if you're interested. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 11 14:54:03 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:54:03 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bug exploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111147k3cbd647eq2ac77877f0b53df8@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <20070210191306.R76956@shell.lmi.net> <5dc6fd9e0702111114m1ec3d4c5o43ff9d1d44c04836@mail.gmail.com> <200702111438.26931.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111147k3cbd647eq2ac77877f0b53df8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0800 2/11/07, Hex Star wrote: >hmm? what do you mean not even close? OK so maybe it's based on Unix, not >linux but it's still a good part of the *nix world is it not? I'm sure it is >seeing as how with all the stuff they've opensourced (all of the *nix >stuff)...it seems to be a good chunk of the OS, the only thing not >opensourced is of course the gui side of OS X...if I'm still wrong please >tell me why as it seems to me that OS X is a great part of *nix... Mac OS X runs on a Mach microkernal, and just happens to have a optional BSD based subsystem that provides a fairly decent Unix command-line environment. They also provide an optional, and crippled X-Windows implementation. The Unix parts of Mac OS X aren't great, but they are enough for most of what I need. Personally if I need to do any serious Unix work, I'll use Solaris, OpenBSD, or even Linux instead. Don't get me wrong, Mac OS X can make a good Unix workstation, but Unix or Linux it isn't. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 11 15:00:15 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:00:15 -0600 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CF83DF.8010503@jbrain.com> Not to carry the thread too much further, but: 1. Jay is the moderator, and he noted this is off-topic. Asking the list members for clarification is the wrong direction to pursue. Ask Jay via a private message. 2. I believe the context of "off-topic" in here is akin to: 1. Machine that is not new, but not yet considered "classic". Later 68K Macs or maybe early PPC Macs would qualify 2. Something that is way old, but not exactly a computer (an old truck that hauled PDPs around might make the cut) 3. Something that is new, but has classic computer ties (C64DTV, FPGA implementations of a VAX, etc.) or can help older machines (FPGAs, SerialATA chipsets for grafting new drives into old machines) 3. Things that get a lot of coverage elsewhere are pruned rather viciously in here. There's tons of sites talking about Mac and WIndows exploits, so there's no need to waste bandwidth here discussing them. Now, if someone talked about exploits for the AmigaOne, which has little coverage elsewhere, the group here might be OK for a bit, since the discussion involves #2.3 above. But, #2 and #3 are my opinion. Ask Jay via PM if you want to continue the discussion. The moderator has spoken, and it is his list. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 11 15:27:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:27:49 -0600 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month ofApple Bugexploits??? References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com><5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> <45CF83DF.8010503@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <00c201c74e23$7d44c7f0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > Not to carry the thread too much further, but: VERY well put Jim, thank you. Especially #3. :) Jay From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 15:41:49 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:41:49 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <45CF83DF.8010503@jbrain.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111246n10d12a2fo1cdb85df8887cfd6@mail.gmail.com> <45CF83DF.8010503@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111341s50e7ad45r5906ef10096c2347@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Jim Brain wrote: > > Not to carry the thread too much further, but: > > 1. Jay is the moderator, and he noted this is off-topic. Asking the > list members for clarification is the wrong direction to pursue. > Ask Jay via a private message. > 2. I believe the context of "off-topic" in here is akin to: > 1. Machine that is not new, but not yet considered "classic". > Later 68K Macs or maybe early PPC Macs would qualify > 2. Something that is way old, but not exactly a computer (an > old truck that hauled PDPs around might make the cut) > 3. Something that is new, but has classic computer ties > (C64DTV, FPGA implementations of a VAX, etc.) or can help > older machines (FPGAs, SerialATA chipsets for grafting new > drives into old machines) > 3. Things that get a lot of coverage elsewhere are pruned rather > viciously in here. There's tons of sites talking about Mac and > WIndows exploits, so there's no need to waste bandwidth here > discussing them. Now, if someone talked about exploits for the > AmigaOne, which has little coverage elsewhere, the group here > might be OK for a bit, since the discussion involves #2.3 above. > > But, #2 and #3 are my opinion. Ask Jay via PM if you want to continue > the discussion. The moderator has spoken, and it is his list. > > Jim > > oh ok...that makes sense...sorry for this mess...see the confusion stemmed from Jay and the list description both saying off topic discussions are OK but it didn't go into much detail as to what was considered OT and acceptable for the list thus IMO leaving that up to the posters discretion which thus led to this as I interpreted that rule differently then the people who have been here for a long time...maybe it'd be a good idea to clarify the OT part of the list rules a bit more so as to avoid any further possible confusion on the part of newcomers like me (maybe one of the Q's for the 2.0 FAQ?)...thanks for the great clarification Jim though and the confirmation of it being around or = to Jay's idea of the rule...now I understand and apologize for this :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 11 15:47:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:47:51 -0600 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of AppleBugexploits??? References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com><00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP><5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111122l2a6a645ao52e225b840aa6655@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e301c74e26$48b39180$6600a8c0@BILLING> Hex wrote.... > in fact...you indeed did say to me that off topic posts are indeed > acceptable ....snip.... You're right, I did. Let me explain further below. This isn't your fault, it's mine. I had written privately.... > Probably not approved because...snip... It's bad form to quote private email in public. That, is not my fault ;) Hex - most of us (including me) have been here for many years and have fallen into an automatic gut reaction that most of us agree on as to what is on topic and what is not - and how far something off-topic can be taken. Many people who join this list hang around for a bit and watch before posting much - perhaps to get a flavor for the bounds of conversation (it's hard to put in black and white actually). In any case, it's my job to nudge conversations back on-topic when they have either gone on too long or gotten too far off the beaten path of interest here. Don't take it personal (and I hope no one else does) when I ask to end a thread or move things back more on-topic. After a while you'll develop that same sense of when things are going too far off-topic. To sum up - I should have clarified with you from the beginning and anyone would have taken what I said the way you did - but it would be more precise to say that while this view of the list allows both on-topic and off-topic discussion, there is bounds on the off-topic discussion. It's not 'anything goes', and if people get too far off I'll nudge them back on :) Jay From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Feb 11 11:01:08 2007 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:01:08 +0000 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <9e2403920702110934i1a44bf5bvc4a01abc82a0be4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070211215857.LYKB1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Jules, > > On 2/11/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Hmm, in the PC world Trident did an ISA one (8900?), and I'm pretty sure > > Paradise did too. Possibly Oak's offering was also 8 bit. > > > > The Trident 8900C and 8900D were both 16-bit. I don't know about the > earlier cards, but if there's an 8-bit Trident 8900-series, I'd love > to find one! > > ...Josef There's IBM video VGA card 8 bit ISA card. Very long card and works well. Cheers, Wizard From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 16:02:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:02:06 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of AppleBugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <00e301c74e26$48b39180$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <00cf01c74d93$aba02940$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5dc6fd9e0702111112g7b7d9faepeb1faf04da77a966@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111122l2a6a645ao52e225b840aa6655@mail.gmail.com> <00e301c74e26$48b39180$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111402rb11b76bi372d1693e2b3cc5d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Jay West wrote: > > Hex wrote.... > > in fact...you indeed did say to me that off topic posts are indeed > > acceptable ....snip.... > You're right, I did. Let me explain further below. This isn't your fault, > it's mine. > > I had written privately.... > > Probably not approved because...snip... > It's bad form to quote private email in public. That, is not my fault ;) > > Hex - most of us (including me) have been here for many years and have > fallen into an automatic gut reaction that most of us agree on as to what > is > on topic and what is not - and how far something off-topic can be taken. > Many people who join this list hang around for a bit and watch before > posting much - perhaps to get a flavor for the bounds of conversation > (it's > hard to put in black and white actually). > > In any case, it's my job to nudge conversations back on-topic when they > have > either gone on too long or gotten too far off the beaten path of interest > here. Don't take it personal (and I hope no one else does) when I ask to > end > a thread or move things back more on-topic. After a while you'll develop > that same sense of when things are going too far off-topic. To sum up - I > should have clarified with you from the beginning and anyone would have > taken what I said the way you did - but it would be more precise to say > that > while this view of the list allows both on-topic and off-topic discussion, > there is bounds on the off-topic discussion. It's not 'anything goes', and > if people get too far off I'll nudge them back on :) > > Jay > > > > ok sounds good...thanks a lot for the clarification Jay and Jim :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 16:07:37 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:07:37 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <20070211215857.LYKB1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> <9e2403920702110934i1a44bf5bvc4a01abc82a0be4d@mail.gmail.com> <20070211215857.LYKB1593.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111407u3d606be8u252a09836b52a07c@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > Jules, > > > > On 2/11/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Hmm, in the PC world Trident did an ISA one (8900?), and I'm pretty > sure > > > Paradise did too. Possibly Oak's offering was also 8 bit. > > > > > > > The Trident 8900C and 8900D were both 16-bit. I don't know about the > > earlier cards, but if there's an 8-bit Trident 8900-series, I'd love > > to find one! > > > > ...Josef > > There's IBM video VGA card 8 bit ISA card. Very long card and works > well. > > Cheers, Wizard > I'm sure it is quite long...just looking at the network cards for my 1980ish computers and comparing it to todays network cards is quite amazing...circuit boards today can be the size such that you can hold 'em in the palm of your hand while back in those days they were several feet :-o (or something like that...very big in comparison none the less) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 11 16:18:29 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:18:29 -0800 Subject: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem? References: Message-ID: <45CF9636.B07F02A4@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have some LCD > monitors that I need to scope out power for (+5 @ 2A, +12 @ 1A), a > nixie-tube panel DVM, and a couple of IBM modem frontpanels. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If that is a Weston 1294-series DVM (4.5 digits, TTL, fits standard 4"*1.75" industrial instr. panel), I can supply the schematic. Neat find, as LEDs quickly took over the market for such panel meters, the NIXIE tube ones are not common. From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 11 16:25:05 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:25:05 -0900 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media - MMI PALS's In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702110858p7c84a989y8eebb257c8a5a918@mail.gmail.co m> References: <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070211131423.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> >Looks like the 16R8 has 8 inputs, 8 D/Q outputs with feedback, 1 clock >input, and 1 output enable input. Looks like there are 32 columns (8x >input True/False plus 8x D/Q feedback True/False) and 64 rows (8x >product terms into each D/Q output) for a total of 2048 fuses. So I >think that would be 256x8, not 512x8. 1024 fuses is right. Talking about "looks", I just happen to have pictures of the silicon on a MMI 16R8 HAL. A HAL is just a manufactured PAL. http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18 I have a 15-20 mega pixel picture of the entire fuse map. I'd like to be able to say I finished reading it, but I barely got started. There is a place in china that will do it for less than what it cost me to get the chip decapped. :) Grant From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 11 16:37:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com> <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070211143604.V13255@shell.lmi.net> > Any one know of any good 8bit VGA cards? ; ) IBM made one. Oh. well if you really want "good" ones, ISTR that several Paradise 16 bit ones would actually work as 8 bit. From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 11 16:39:22 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:39:22 -0900 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> At 11:34 AM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:49, Hex Star wrote: > > > maybe...if there were some people on there that expressed they had great > > experience in macs and simply worked with windows because their business > > required it (as often is the unfortunate case ;-) )...and since there are > > people here on this list with a great deal of experience with macs I > thought > > that this list would be a good place to discuss this as they no doubt have > > some great experience with this side of Apple It would have helped if you had linked to something interesting and completely insane. For example, http://mactalk.com.au/articles/68kpanther/ Some people might not consider a computer from 1994 vintage, however since Linux DOES run on the 386... Someone with a VAX 11/780 should be able to run OS X too. Maybe running Windows Vista on it would make more of an impact. Seriously, anyone like projects like this just because they push the extreme? ; ) Grant From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 11 17:37:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:37:36 -0600 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45CEE868.25138.27F8B3C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com>, <5.2.1.1.0.20070210185504.02495480@pop.1and1.com>, <45CF4CA9.1080507@yahoo.co.uk> <45CEE868.25138.27F8B3C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45CFA8C0.40500@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:04, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Hmm, in the PC world Trident did an ISA one (8900?), and I'm pretty sure >> Paradise did too. Possibly Oak's offering was also 8 bit. > > Yes and yes ISTR that one Trident board was a 16 bit card, but would still work in an 8 bit slot - not sure if that was the 8900 or not, though. I may not have the model number right... the later Trident board was 16 bit only I think... >--and don't forget the Video 7 VGA Wonder--with two > connectors on the bracket (9 and 15 pin). Hmm, I used to have one of those... I think I sold it in a machine many years ago though. >> Oh, regarding the SCSI question, most 8 bitters didn't bother with a complete >> SCSI chip; it can be done with only ten or so LS logic ICs anyway, providing >> blistering performance isn't needed (and lets face it, no performance is going >> to be blistering if there's an 8-bit CPU handling all the I/O, dedicated SCSI >> chip or not :) > > There we differ-most of my inventory of 8 bit SCSI cards have an LSI > IC as the heart. Only one or two (e.g. the Iomega Bernoilli adapter) > use SSI. Ahhh, I was thinking more of home micros that had SCSI support rather than more serious IBM compatibles (or other business micros). Agreed that systems with a "real bus" probably had more expensive cards that used a proper SCSI controller. cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 17:38:46 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:38:46 -0800 Subject: Preservation of Correspondence - And Media - MMI PALS's In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070211131423.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> References: <200702091830.l19IUELr021377@onyx.spiritone.com> <45CCEA89.4010804@jetnet.ab.ca> <200702110657.BAA08188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CECC65.30005@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.2.1.1.0.20070211131423.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702111538i40463672m5180ae48d49c00a5@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > > >Looks like the 16R8 has 8 inputs, 8 D/Q outputs with feedback, 1 clock > >input, and 1 output enable input. Looks like there are 32 columns (8x > >input True/False plus 8x D/Q feedback True/False) and 64 rows (8x > >product terms into each D/Q output) for a total of 2048 fuses. So I > >think that would be 256x8, not 512x8. > > 1024 fuses is right. Talking about "looks", I just happen to have pictures > of the silicon on a MMI 16R8 HAL. A HAL is just a manufactured PAL. > > http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18 > How does that add up to 1024 instead of 2048? A single block as shown on the page in the above link has 256 fuses doesn't it? And there are 8 of those blocks? So 256 * 8 = 2048 fuses? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 11 17:43:53 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:43:53 -0600 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <8EC12FD4-DA1C-44E3-82F4-25C1E5CB0598@microspot.co.uk> References: <200702111802.l1BI1Op7078037@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8EC12FD4-DA1C-44E3-82F4-25C1E5CB0598@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <45CFAA39.8090109@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Holmes wrote: > I've been listening in on this thread (though I skipped a few) and am > wondering how you can tell whether a CD or DVD has corruption which > is being corrected or whether it is pristine. If I can tell, then maybe > when > there is corruption I could re-record the data before it becomes > unreadable. Can't tell you the answer to that one, but it's an interesting question and one I've considered for various equipment that has built-in error correction; it's no good having that error correction if it silently masks errors happening when the user could have otherwise done something about the faulty part. Memory (at least in ECC form) and hard disks are two obvious candidates for masking faults from the user... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 11 17:49:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:49:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: (OT?) Can anyone web-host a few articles? Message-ID: As many of you know, I am a member of HPCC (Handheld and Portable Computer Club), a UK user group for HP calculators, etc. This group publishes a magazine called 'Datafile'. Anyway, I have been persuaded to write a few articles for said magazine. The current issue contains one explaining how to cure that well-known hardeneed grease problem in the Sony full-height 3.5" disk drive. I've illustrated the article with a number of photos showning the stages in dismantling said drirve. As yoy also know, I don't haev a digital camera, but the company who processed the film put scans of the photos onto a CD-ROM for me, I believe as JPEG files, about 2.5Mpixels. Although the results printed in the magazine were excellent, they were necessarily small, and both the editor and I feel it would be a good idea to make the article(s) available on the web with full-sized images. The reason I put OT? im the subject line is that said articles may not be classic _computing_. I think I'll only be writing about stuff more than 10 years old, mostly HP (but maybe the odd machine from Sharp, TI, etc). And mostly calcualtors and handheld computers (the last bit is why you might not consider it to be classic computing). Can anyone help by suggesting a site that might host said articles? If so, I'll put you in touch with the magazine editor. Thanks in advance -tony From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 18:15:35 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:15:35 -0800 Subject: (OT?) Can anyone web-host a few articles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111615g217845d3ua8fc025cdac0d631@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > As many of you know, I am a member of HPCC (Handheld and Portable > Computer Club), a UK user group for HP calculators, etc. This group > publishes a magazine called 'Datafile'. > > Anyway, I have been persuaded to write a few articles for said magazine. > The current issue contains one explaining how to cure that well-known > hardeneed grease problem in the Sony full-height 3.5" disk drive. I've > illustrated the article with a number of photos showning the stages in > dismantling said drirve. > > As yoy also know, I don't haev a digital camera, but the company who > processed the film put scans of the photos onto a CD-ROM for me, I > believe as JPEG files, about 2.5Mpixels. Although the results printed in > the magazine were excellent, they were necessarily small, and both the > editor and I feel it would be a good idea to make the article(s) > available on the web with full-sized images. > > The reason I put OT? im the subject line is that said articles may not be > classic _computing_. I think I'll only be writing about stuff more than > 10 years old, mostly HP (but maybe the odd machine from Sharp, TI, etc). > And mostly calcualtors and handheld computers (the last bit is why you > might not consider it to be classic computing). > > Can anyone help by suggesting a site that might host said articles? If > so, I'll put you in touch with the magazine editor. > > Thanks in advance > > -tony > > I can host the articles for you if you'd like :-) ...the url will be esc69.midphase.com/~moiress/yourfolderhere/ and I have 7GB of disk space availible for use and unlimited bandwidth...lemme know if you're interested From hexstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 18:28:19 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:28:19 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> On 2/11/07, Grant Stockly wrote: > > At 11:34 AM 2/11/2007, you wrote: > >On 11 Feb 2007 at 11:49, Hex Star wrote: > > > > > maybe...if there were some people on there that expressed they had > great > > > experience in macs and simply worked with windows because their > business > > > required it (as often is the unfortunate case ;-) )...and since there > are > > > people here on this list with a great deal of experience with macs I > > thought > > > that this list would be a good place to discuss this as they no doubt > have > > > some great experience with this side of Apple > > It would have helped if you had linked to something interesting and > completely insane. > > For example, > > http://mactalk.com.au/articles/68kpanther/ > > Some people might not consider a computer from 1994 vintage, however since > Linux DOES run on the 386... > > Someone with a VAX 11/780 should be able to run OS X too. Maybe running > Windows Vista on it would make more of an impact. Seriously, anyone like > projects like this just because they push the extreme? > > ; ) > > Grant > > ah I see...and if the 780=a 780mhz processor...just overclock it 20mhz and you've met the bare minimum for vista (but you also have the ram and video card as well...) :P :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 11 11:14:07 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:14:07 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2007, at 2:18 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: > Of course, if I made a SCSI card they would be $10 without parts. > (not full size S-100) ; ) SCSI is kind of dead, but it would be a > fun card to make... [looks around] Huh? When did that happen, exactly? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 11 13:43:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:43:21 -0500 Subject: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have some LCD > monitors that I need to scope out power for (+5 @ 2A, +12 @ 1A), a > nixie-tube panel DVM, and a couple of IBM modem frontpanels. > >> From googling the IBM model number (7861-015), they appear to be from > a 9600bps 4-wire leased-line modem. I picked them up because they > have a 20-key keypad with double-shot hex letters (0-9, A-F) that look > really handy for attaching to an 1802 or similar, and a 1x16 char > "british flag" VFD. What I'd really like is to get my hands on a > schematic to skip the step of reverse-engineering the VFD drivers. Oh now that's a damn good idea. Those modems are all over the place. I think I will have to grab a couple of those myself! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 19:40:21 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:40:21 -0500 Subject: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/11/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 11, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have some LCD > > monitors that I need to scope out power for (+5 @ 2A, +12 @ 1A), a > > nixie-tube panel DVM, and a couple of IBM modem frontpanels. > Oh now that's a damn good idea. Those modems are all over the > place. I think I will have to grab a couple of those myself! :) Well... for $1 each for 3, if I throw everything away but the keypad, I still did OK. With no technical info within a few google searches, I started dismantling one. It seems that under the keypad is some mask-programmed 40-pin DIP Texas Instruments microcontroller. :-( I may just remove the VFD and figure out how to multiplex and drive it the hard way from some modern microcontroller. 1x16 is handy for plenty of things. If anyone does ever turn up anything detailed on these, I would still appreciate hearing about it. Thanks, -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 11 20:01:25 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:01:25 -0500 Subject: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have some LCD >> > monitors that I need to scope out power for (+5 @ 2A, +12 @ 1A), a >> > nixie-tube panel DVM, and a couple of IBM modem frontpanels. > >> Oh now that's a damn good idea. Those modems are all over the >> place. I think I will have to grab a couple of those myself! :) > > Well... for $1 each for 3, if I throw everything away but the keypad, > I still did OK. > > With no technical info within a few google searches, I started > dismantling one. It seems that under the keypad is some > mask-programmed 40-pin DIP Texas Instruments microcontroller. :-( Bummer. :-( > I > may just remove the VFD and figure out how to multiplex and drive it > the hard way from some modern microcontroller. 1x16 is handy for > plenty of things. True, and those displays are gorgeous. Take a look at Maxim's MAX6921 and MAX6851 chips. Together, they can easily drive that display with an I2C interface. The only other thing you'll need is an HV supply for the VFD, which can easily be done with something like an MC34063. (contact me for info on that if needed, as I just built one to drive nixie tubes...the same circuit will easily adjust down to VFD voltage ranges) It's a lot of work, but again, those displays are really nice. If I had a handful of those I'd spin a PCB containing the above circuitry just to be able to use them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ken at seefried.com Sun Feb 11 21:27:44 2007 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:27:44 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702111627.l1BGQNFk076916@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702111627.l1BGQNFk076916@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070212032744.25423.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Zane H. Healy" >ELKS will run on a 286, right? IIRC, I've got a 286 S-100 Bus CPU >card (I know I have a 80186 card). There was a V6 port to the 286 for which at least some source is laying around the net (I've never looked to see if it was remotely complete/buildable). V7 should be doable, if anyone remembers enough about it to try. There was Xenix & Venix as well, not that anyone wants to run Xenix unless they have too...:-). Wonder if 2BSD could be the basis of a port. Sorta similar constraints. Ken From bob at jfcl.com Sun Feb 11 21:27:35 2007 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:27:35 -0800 Subject: Schematics needed for H7868 Message-ID: <000001c74e55$bd5d1810$1401010a@Rhyme> Does anybody have the maintenance prints for the H7868 (BA213) power supply? Bitsavers and max appear to have nothing on this guy. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 11 21:40:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:40:22 -0600 Subject: (OT?) Can anyone web-host a few articles? References: Message-ID: <00e101c74e57$86917770$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > Can anyone help by suggesting a site that might host said articles? If > so, I'll put you in touch with the magazine editor. > > Thanks in advance Tony; I'd be happy to host them at my colocation facility gratis - I have a softspot for HP stuff as you might guess. Even their calculators ;) If you're interested just drop me a line. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 11 21:55:28 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:55:28 -0600 Subject: HP gear sought Message-ID: <00ef01c74e59$a27263d0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm kinda sorta half-way looking for some additional HP gear that is out of the area I normally look for.... HP 1340A X-Y display HP 1350A Graphics Translator I may have to get another HP rack...... ;) If anyone has a spare 1340A and/or 1350A they'd like to trade off, I'd be happy to offer up some gear for 'em. Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Feb 11 22:34:36 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:34:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45CF4B0B.6090304@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C77952.8050609@bitsavers.org> <45C7952F.9040905@oldskool.org> <45C7D61F.4070201@yahoo.co.uk> <45C7E7B9.10206@oldskool.org> <45C8AF03.20603@yahoo.co.uk> <200702061723.MAA27480@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CC816B.2040607@yahoo.co.uk> <200702110655.BAA08166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45CF4B0B.6090304@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702120441.XAA13544@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (For example, my tar supports files larger than 8GB, which I was >> somewhat surprised to find GNU tar didn't [...]) > Recent versions at least do; I wrote some which were around 14GB a > few weeks ago and they read back and verified against original data > OK (no errors, missing files etc.) I don't mean archives >8G (which is what it sounds as though you're talking about); I mean individual files >8G in the archives. > It's one of the things I dislike about tar in general though; I'm > never sure when I'm going to hit either file size or file path length > limits. That's why my tar uses private header formats to transparently handle path length limits (on which it imposes no restrictions except available memory, I think) and file size limits (on which it does impose a 2^88-byte limit; I could lift even that limit with a little work if I were convinced it were worth it, though I'd be unable to test it as I have no OSes which support file sizes over 2^64). I think GNU tar does something similar for pathname length limits. > Other than that though it's generally better than the alternatives in > that the format's documented well It is? Where? I've been looking for a long time for documentation on tar format, and so far all the pointers I've found have ended up at pay-for-play "standards". I'd love to get hold of a real spec for the tar header block format. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 00:46:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:46:16 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 11, 2007, at 2:18 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: >> Of course, if I made a SCSI card they would be $10 without parts. >> (not full size S-100) ; ) SCSI is kind of dead, but it would be a >> fun card to make... > > [looks around] > > Huh? When did that happen, exactly? Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* with SCSI *right now*? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 00:50:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:50:56 -0500 Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D00E50.4010900@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I've always found fellow classic computer types to be a very honest > bunch. I know full well that if I lent a menual to one of them they'd > return it to me in the same condition that I lent it out in. But alas the > postabl 'service, at least in the UK, is not something I'd trust with an > irreplacable manual. So alas I can't think of an obivous way to share > said manuals... How about this: The next time I come through the UK, I could stop by with a scanner and a laptop, and we could spend an afternoon or two scanning things for people. Would that be agreeable? I travel to the UK fairly often, and I usually travel with equipment. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 01:15:40 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:15:40 -0500 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D0141C.9060403@gmail.com> Hex Star wrote: > ah I see...and if the 780=a 780mhz processor...just overclock it 20mhz and > you've met the bare minimum for vista (but you also have the ram and video > card as well...) :P :-) Could you at least Google the machine before you write about it? Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 11 19:05:11 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:05:11 +0000 Subject: (OT?) Can anyone web-host a few articles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CFBD47.7020505@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > The reason I put OT? im the subject line is that said articles may not be > classic _computing_. I think I'll only be writing about stuff more than > 10 years old, mostly HP (but maybe the odd machine from Sharp, TI, etc). > And mostly calcualtors and handheld computers (the last bit is why you > might not consider it to be classic computing). > > Can anyone help by suggesting a site that might host said articles? If > so, I'll put you in touch with the magazine editor. I'll host them on Castlecore if you want - www.castlecore.com. Address would be www..castlecore.com. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 10 01:25:11 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:25:11 +0000 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms Message-ID: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> Hi, I'm currently looking for information on programming algorithms for the old fuse-link PROMs (Signetics 82S series, AMD 27S series, National Semiconductor 74S series, TI 18S series, Harris/Intersil 7000 series, Fujitsu 7000 series and MMI 6000 series). Does anyone here have copies of the memory product databooks from any of these manufacturers? I've got the Signetics Generic I algorithm (but not Generic II), and part of the NatSemi algorithm (text only, no timing diagrams), and nothing at all for the others. Main reason I'm asking is because I'm designing a programmer to do the 82S series, and I'd like to make it as universal as possible - i.e. if possible, I'd like it to be able to read and program the other chips too. I'm willing to pay for photocopies of datasheets, or the entire databooks if you'd rather sell the book itself. Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 12 01:46:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:46:16 -0500 Subject: Shameless Plug: Unisite offered In-Reply-To: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> References: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <39C5E529-88F6-4D46-95F8-EC9998FBB7A8@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow techies, > > A brief shameless plug: I've just posted one of my Data I/O > Unisite programming systems for sale on That Auction Site. > > A seller search for the ID 'bftbell' will turn it up if you're > interested. > > Thanks much. Ahh, that's you. :) I'll shoot you some tasty goodness via PayPal shortly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wizard at voyager.net Mon Feb 12 01:53:45 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:53:45 -0500 Subject: Preservation of correspondence In-Reply-To: <45CFAA39.8090109@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200702111802.l1BI1Op7078037@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8EC12FD4-DA1C-44E3-82F4-25C1E5CB0598@microspot.co.uk> <45CFAA39.8090109@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1171266825.26001.123.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 17:43 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Can't tell you the answer to that one, but it's an interesting question and > one I've considered for various equipment that has built-in error correction; > it's no good having that error correction if it silently masks errors > happening when the user could have otherwise done something about the faulty part. > > Memory (at least in ECC form) and hard disks are two obvious candidates for > masking faults from the user... This takes me back to my IMSAI 8080... When I got it running properly, I ended up abandoning games like "Kill the Bit" quickly, and didn't use the LED output port for much. I noticed that in the BIOS routine for disk access, a sector read would be tried over if it failed, up to a total of ten times. If a read failed ten times, a disk read error would be returned. I decided that I'd like to know earlier than that about any media problems I might have. So, I used a byte of memory, and every time I got an error, before it called the routine again, I would increment the byte counter (paying no attention to overflow) and send it out to the LED display. If a program was running without complaint, but the LEDs were cycling regularly, it was time to examine the disk, and perhaps copy off the data. I was smug about that, and about the routine that would thoroughly test one byte of memory with each call to the console status routine, where the computer spent its idle time. Might as well be testing memory, one location after another... Memory was notoriously flaky, and catching it sooner rather than later was a good thing. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Feb 12 02:39:07 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 03:39:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702120841.DAA24895@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> SCSI is kind of dead, but [...] >> [looks around] >> Huh? When did that happen, exactly? > Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* > with SCSI *right now*? What's that got to do with its being dead (or not)? Or is this some redefinition of "dead" that amounts to "not present on lots of different kinds of machines rolling off production lines now"? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From grant at stockly.com Mon Feb 12 03:15:11 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:15:11 -0900 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702120841.DAA24895@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> At 11:39 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: > >>> SCSI is kind of dead, but [...] > >> [looks around] > >> Huh? When did that happen, exactly? > > Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* > > with SCSI *right now*? > >What's that got to do with its being dead (or not)? Or is this some >redefinition of "dead" that amounts to "not present on lots of >different kinds of machines rolling off production lines now"? By "kind of dead" I meant cheap workstation class hard drives. "Kind of sick" could be a cold and sick could be AIDS or cancer? ; ) It would make a lot more sense to build an IDE card for the Altair than a SCSI one IMO. Grant From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 03:46:33 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:46:33 -0500 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702120841.DAA24895@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <200702120841.DAA24895@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45D03779.4050200@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>> SCSI is kind of dead, but [...] >>> [looks around] >>> Huh? When did that happen, exactly? >> Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* >> with SCSI *right now*? > > What's that got to do with its being dead (or not)? Or is this some > redefinition of "dead" that amounts to "not present on lots of > different kinds of machines rolling off production lines now"? I wasn't being facetious. I was agreeing with Dave. There are, infact at least ten different *architectures* **off the top of my head** that are still coming with SCSI as their default storage. Peace... Sridhar From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Feb 12 06:00:34 2007 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:00:34 +1100 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/02/2007, at 11:28 AM, Hex Star wrote: >> > ah I see...and if the 780=a 780mhz processor...just overclock it > 20mhz and > you've met the bare minimum for vista (but you also have the ram > and video > card as well...) :P :-) The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Feb 12 06:51:45 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM tape drives on eBay (Atlanta, GA) Message-ID: <20070212125145.22852.qmail@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No bids on any of these yet.. One of you IBM fans needs to snag some of of this stuff. Very nice looking classic vacuum-column drives, controllers too. Has anyone inquired with the seller regarding the remainder of the machine these drives came from? --Bill http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078807906QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078807906 end time Feb-13-07 11:47:32 PST) http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078851691QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078851691 end time Feb-13-07 13:38:03 PST) http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078859283QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078859283 end time Feb-13-07 14:03:56 PST) http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3803-002_W0QQitemZ170078863271QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3803-002 (item 170078863271 end time Feb-13-07 14:14:29 PST) http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3803-002_W0QQitemZ170078898204QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3803-002 (item 170078898204 end time Feb-14-07 10:00:00 PST) http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078898734QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078898734 end time Feb-14-07 10:30:00 PST) http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078899025QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078899025 end time Feb-14-07 11:30:00 PST) From bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk Mon Feb 12 07:09:30 2007 From: bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Brian Foley) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:09:30 +0000 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070212130930.GA2392@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 11:00:34PM +1100, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 12/02/2007, at 11:28 AM, Hex Star wrote: > > >> > >ah I see...and if the 780=a 780mhz processor...just overclock it > > The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to > check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) Err... are you sure you don't mean 5 MHz? I know it was 1977 and they chiseled ICs directly out of raw basalt back then, but even still! :) http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/vax700.html#vax700:vax_11_780 The early VAXes took quite a few clock cycles to execute each instruction, and the 11/780 could execute about 500,000 instructions/sec. Perhaps this is where you're getting your figure from? Cheers, Brian. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:06:55 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:06:55 -0500 Subject: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem? In-Reply-To: <45CF9636.B07F02A4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45CF9636.B07F02A4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2/11/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have [a]... > > nixie-tube panel DVM... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > If that is a Weston 1294-series DVM (4.5 digits, TTL, fits standard 4"*1.75" > industrial instr. panel), I can supply the schematic. It _is_ 4.5 digits (with individual + and - masked neon bulbs) and does fit a standard panel opening, but it's an MDPM-3 by Instrument Displays, Inc., of Haverhill, Massachusetts. > Neat find, as LEDs quickly took over the market for such panel meters, the > NIXIE tube ones are not common. They sure did... one day it was analog meters, nearly the next day, it was LEDs. The window for Nixie tubes was rather small. I couldn't believe I saw this one on the table for $3. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 12 10:13:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:13:49 -0600 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D0923D.10003@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Feb 11, 2007, at 2:18 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: >>> Of course, if I made a SCSI card they would be $10 without parts. >>> (not full size S-100) ; ) SCSI is kind of dead, but it would be a >>> fun card to make... >> >> [looks around] >> >> Huh? When did that happen, exactly? > > Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* with > SCSI *right now*? Pretty much anything that isn't a desktop PC with a year or so of design life, I would have thought. It's still perfectly alive and well for people who care about quality. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 12 10:36:47 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:36:47 -0500 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702121136.48078.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 12 February 2007 07:00, Huw Davies wrote: > On 12/02/2007, at 11:28 AM, Hex Star wrote: > > ah I see...and if the 780=a 780mhz processor...just overclock it > > 20mhz and > > you've met the bare minimum for vista (but you also have the ram > > and video > > card as well...) :P :-) > > The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to > check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) Actually, from reading the service manual, I seem to remember it being 10MHz. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:46:39 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:46:39 -0500 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <200702121136.48078.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> <200702121136.48078.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45D099EF.8040305@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 12 February 2007 07:00, Huw Davies wrote: >> On 12/02/2007, at 11:28 AM, Hex Star wrote: >>> ah I see...and if the 780=a 780mhz processor...just overclock it >>> 20mhz and >>> you've met the bare minimum for vista (but you also have the ram >>> and video >>> card as well...) :P :-) >> The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to >> check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) > > Actually, from reading the service manual, I seem to remember it being > 10MHz. 5MHz. It has a 200ns clock. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 12 10:54:34 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:54:34 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070212105138.055513e0@mail> At 02:42 PM 2/8/2007, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 2/8/07, Richard wrote: >>I've not heard of Planar before, so I'd like to hear about that one. > >They are still around. They now make VGA and DVI LCD panels, but at >one point, they made terminals and PCs. I have a Planar wall-mount >486 (LCD, 2.5" disk, external CD-ROM...) and couple Planar ELT-320s. Their Lake Mills, WI facility closed in 2002. It was perhaps the last USA-based LCD manufacturing plant. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 12 11:08:31 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:08:31 -0600 Subject: has anyone constructed 3D models of vintage gear? In-Reply-To: <45CC8259.9040207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45C3B48B.8040108@gifford.co.uk> <45CC8259.9040207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070212110544.056b46e8@mail> At 08:16 AM 2/9/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >John Honniball wrote: >>Richard wrote: >>>The subject pretty much says it all. >>I have a 3D model of the BBC Micro that I did in Google >>Sketchup. I know Richard likes Utah 3D trivia, so I'll share... Back in 1998 or so when Computer Associates bought Viewpoint DataLabs (in Orem), one of their motives was to use the 3D modeling resources of the company to create 3D models of common PCs, interior and exterior. This was to become an element of one of CA's expensive enterprise PC-monitoring / help desk applications. Not only would the help desk be able to look up the details of the PC on someone's remote desk, they'd be able to see a 3D model of the computer and its interior cards. I don't know if this ever came to be. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 12 11:20:00 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:20:00 -0800 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45D0923D.10003@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <45D0923D.10003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:13 AM -0600 2/12/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* >>with SCSI *right now*? > >Pretty much anything that isn't a desktop PC with a year or so of >design life, I would have thought. It's still perfectly alive and >well for people who care about quality. While rack mount servers still use SCSI, that's about it, and a bunch of our latest in our computer room have come with 2.5" SAS drives (Serial Attached SCSI). All the new Sun Workstations look to be using SATA, not sure about the IBM or HP's. My current Sun is an aging SunBlade 1000, and it uses fibre drives. I think both EIDE, and SCSI are slowly on their way out. Though hopefully SCSI will stick around for a while longer. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Feb 12 11:48:26 2007 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:48:26 -0500 Subject: Wanted: bulk decconnect 6 conductor flat cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D0A86A.1050806@splab.cas.neu.edu> Toth I sent email directly to you about some decconnect cable I have, but haven't heard any response. Are you all set now, or did you tag my email as junk? Joe Heck Tothwolf wrote: > > I've finally decided to go ahead and start making MMJ cables again after > all. > > The seller who has been giving me trouble has given me several reasons > to go ahead and compete. First off, his last email to me was this: > >> Ha Ha I didn't copy YOUR idea. You're so vain. >> >> Anyway, it doesn't matter what you say or think about me. I used to >> like Texans before this experience. Well, I like Bush. >> >> Well, good luck I wish you the best. > > > ...he then bid on one of my adapter kits to try scare away other > bidders. I did cancel his bid and added his username to my BBL. Another > bidder bought the kit, so I didn't even lose a sale over that. I also > suspect he wanted to see how I had them wired, though I flat out old him > to look up the DEC pinout. > > He bought a 1000ft spool of genuine decconnect cable off of eBay a month > or so back, and after he started emailing me and then bid on my adapter > kit, I've decided I'd like to compete with this guy head on. If someone > has a spool of such cable laying around and wants to part with it, > please let me know. I tried going after a lot of 10 50ft cables a few > weeks ago so I could use their cable to make shorter/more useful cables, > but a DEC reseller nabbed them ;P > > Most recently the guy who started copying my adapter kits has changed > his listings for the MMJ cables he is making after my initial post/rant > here on classiccmp: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130075722308 > >> Digital Equipment Corporation DEC BC16E 10 feet long DECconnect Office >> Cable. Made from a spool of genuine, authentic, high quality >> DECconnect Office Cable and MMJ offset style plugs. The MMJ plugs are >> high quality and commercially available. >> >> The crimps are carefully made and thoroughly tested. I would never >> sell a cable that did not work. >> >> Note that once I purchased a crimping tool from an eBayer. That tool >> did not work properly and that eBayer later admitted that he sold me a >> cheap tool. That particular tool has not been used in making any of >> my cables sold on eBay. I now use a high quality crimping tool >> purchased from a reputable supplier! >> >> This cable has never been used before other than to test it to make >> sure it works. Tested on a DEC Alpha and VAX. Will work the same for >> any DEC machine. >> >> This is a high quality cable that is tested and working. It is made >> from DEC branded cable, not from a third party cable such as Graybar, >> etc. > > > Not like I believe him, especially as this only appeared after my posts... > > -Toth > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 11:57:15 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:57:15 -0800 Subject: Hp SCSI front load Tape drive spotted FS in Oregon Message-ID: The State of Oregon surplus store has a tall HP rack with a HP 7980S tape drive ( 1" front load SCSI) and a A3312A disk array mounted in it for the tag price of $50. Since it is a govt. agency assume no disk drives installed in the array cabinet. It is in Salem Oregon, The store is open 1 pm to 4 pm Tue thru Friday. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 12 12:07:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:07:30 -0500 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> References: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 4:15 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: > By "kind of dead" I meant cheap workstation class hard drives. "Cheap" + "workstation class" == oxymoron, in my book. ;) > It would make a lot more sense to build an IDE card for the Altair > than a SCSI one IMO. Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving (hoarding) older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for smaller machines? They seem to be drying up fast. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 12 12:09:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:09:41 -0700 Subject: Shameless Plug: Unisite offered In-Reply-To: <39C5E529-88F6-4D46-95F8-EC9998FBB7A8@neurotica.com> References: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> <39C5E529-88F6-4D46-95F8-EC9998FBB7A8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45D0AD65.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ahh, that's you. :) I'll shoot you some tasty goodness via PayPal > shortly. > > -Dave > Well I could not find the Auction Site. Good luck on your buy. I do hope people help Phill in the other post get a NON-PC based fuse ROM programmer built. I would like to see built that becuase every stupid thing has to be attached to a stupid PC rather than a old classic computer with a serial port. I'll even buy a PCB if gets the project built. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 12 12:22:32 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:22:32 -0500 Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <45D0923D.10003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 12:20 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand >>> new* with SCSI *right now*? >> >> Pretty much anything that isn't a desktop PC with a year or so of >> design life, I would have thought. It's still perfectly alive and >> well for people who care about quality. > > While rack mount servers still use SCSI, that's about it, and a > bunch of our latest in our computer room have come with 2.5" SAS > drives (Serial Attached SCSI). All the new Sun Workstations look > to be using SATA, not sure about the IBM or HP's. My current Sun > is an aging SunBlade 1000, and it uses fibre drives. > > I think both EIDE, and SCSI are slowly on their way out. Though > hopefully SCSI will stick around for a while longer. Indeed, perhaps we're splitting hairs here, but I believe we could easily consider both SAS and Fibre Channel to be SCSI. They are both different low-level transport mechanisms for SCSI. The only possible nit here is that Fibre Channel can also be used as the transport mechanism for other high-level protocols like IP. To say "SAS isn't SCSI" or "FC isn't SCSI", it wouldn't be taking things too much further to say "Differential SCSI isn't SCSI". Most of the important benefits of SCSI are in the command set, not the type of connectors and voltage levels in use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 12 12:31:13 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:31:13 -0700 Subject: HP gear sought In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:55:28 -0600. <00ef01c74e59$a27263d0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <00ef01c74e59$a27263d0$6700a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > I'm kinda sorta half-way looking for some additional HP gear that is out of > the area I normally look for.... > > HP 1340A X-Y display > HP 1350A Graphics Translator I found a 1351A graphics generator on govliquidation.com; its the only place I've seen them. It was with a bunch of test equipment. I've not been able to find the corresponding display, but I've noticed that lots of HP gear is mischaracterized as test equipment on ebay, so if your searches don't include that category, you should consider expanding them for HP stuff. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 12 12:42:23 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:42:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 12, 2007 01:07:30 PM Message-ID: <200702121842.l1CIgNZp002583@onyx.spiritone.com> > Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving > (hoarding) older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for > smaller machines? They seem to be drying up fast. > > -Dave YES!!!! Several years ago (around '98/99), the most "valuable" Hard drive in my collection was a 20MB SCSI HD, as it allowed me to transfer some software onto my PDP-11. It was the *ONLY* SCSI HD in my collection that was smaller than 100MB (IIRC, I needed 30MB or smaller). For the past several years I've been collecting 2GB Seagate Barracuda Narrow SCSI drives when I can find them, as well as other small Narrow SCSI drives. As I hope to be able to have enough to outlast my PDP-11's, Amiga's, and Atari TT030. For my VAXstations, I've got 40+ StorageWorks drives, as well as plenty of StorageWorks shelves and fans. I'm also collecting large capacity SCSI drives for my Alpha's, Sun's, and SGI O2's. I probably have enough EIDE drives for my PC's and PowerMac G4. I've quite honestly not given this as much thought as I maybe should. I even have a few RD52's, 2 RD54's, and a couple ESDI drives. I've even saved the dead RD53's I have, but haven't had a chance to try to revive them. Also take a look at spare powersupplies, fans, and any strange CD/DVD-ROM requirements (such as 512-byte block SCSI). If you use external disk enclosures, it would be a good idea to have spares of them as well. Spare floppy drives are also a good idea. Yes, I've given this some thought over the past 10 years, and have been stock piling all of that time. I just hope I don't have anything that is the equivalent of the DEC RD53 drives in my spares collection! My big concern in the coming years is likely to be suitable monitors for various systems. Zane From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 12 12:04:50 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:04:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM tape drives on eBay (Atlanta, GA) In-Reply-To: <20070212125145.22852.qmail@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <743701.30063.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> William Maddox wrote: No bids on any of these yet.. One of you IBM fans needs to snag some of of this stuff. Very nice looking classic vacuum-column drives, controllers too. Has anyone inquired with the seller regarding the remainder of the machine these drives came from? --Bill I emailed him and he only received the drives & controllers. He did not know what mainframe they came from. Wish I had more space, they would nice set up along a wall. Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 12 12:45:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:45:26 -0500 Subject: Shameless Plug: Unisite offered In-Reply-To: <45D0AD65.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> <39C5E529-88F6-4D46-95F8-EC9998FBB7A8@neurotica.com> <45D0AD65.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <70626AB5-117C-47DF-AF91-634C9760F31D@neurotica.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:09 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Ahh, that's you. :) I'll shoot you some tasty goodness via >> PayPal shortly. > > Well I could not find the Auction Site. Good luck on your buy. Thank you. It will replace my trusty Data I/O 2900, which has served me very well. I am excited about the upgrade. > I do hope people help Phill in the other post get a NON-PC based > fuse ROM programmer built. I would like to see built that becuase > every > stupid thing has to be attached to a stupid PC rather than a > old classic computer with a serial port. I don't connect my current programmer (the aforementioned 2900) to a computer at all. I have a "programming station" of sorts set up on one side of a table, with the 2900 and a VT420. Since I generate my hex files in different places depending on what I'm doing, I just throw them onto a floppy and read them into the programmer that way. The terminal-based user interface is very good. I have documentation on the serial remote control protocol that the 2900 (and presumably other UniFamily programmers) use. I am considering writing a software package to control these programmers. I prefer the terminal UI, but having options is nice, and it seems there's a need for such a program. There's Windows software out there for it, but apparently nothing for serious platforms. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 12 12:46:12 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:46:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 12, 2007 01:22:32 PM Message-ID: <200702121846.l1CIkCDJ002730@onyx.spiritone.com> > Indeed, perhaps we're splitting hairs here, but I believe we could > easily consider both SAS and Fibre Channel to be SCSI. They are both > different low-level transport mechanisms for SCSI. The only possible > nit here is that Fibre Channel can also be used as the transport > mechanism for other high-level protocols like IP. > > To say "SAS isn't SCSI" or "FC isn't SCSI", it wouldn't be taking > things too much further to say "Differential SCSI isn't SCSI". > > Most of the important benefits of SCSI are in the command set, not > the type of connectors and voltage levels in use. > > -Dave In the case of keeping old hardware running there is a serious difference between SCSI, SAS, FC, HVD-SCSI, and U160/U320-SCSI. There is a lesser difference between Narrow SCSI, Wide SCSI, UW-SCSI, and U2W-SCSI. Zane From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Feb 12 12:46:04 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:46:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200702121846.NAA28391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving (hoarding) > older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for smaller > machines? They seem to be drying up fast. It does to me - and I have been. For some time now. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 12 12:56:08 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:56:08 -0500 Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702121846.l1CIkCDJ002730@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702121846.l1CIkCDJ002730@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <3EE94A7A-7BEB-43B0-B956-34A337305543@neurotica.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Indeed, perhaps we're splitting hairs here, but I believe we could >> easily consider both SAS and Fibre Channel to be SCSI. They are both >> different low-level transport mechanisms for SCSI. The only possible >> nit here is that Fibre Channel can also be used as the transport >> mechanism for other high-level protocols like IP. >> >> To say "SAS isn't SCSI" or "FC isn't SCSI", it wouldn't be taking >> things too much further to say "Differential SCSI isn't SCSI". >> >> Most of the important benefits of SCSI are in the command set, not >> the type of connectors and voltage levels in use. > > In the case of keeping old hardware running there is a serious > difference > between SCSI, SAS, FC, HVD-SCSI, and U160/U320-SCSI. There is a > lesser > difference between Narrow SCSI, Wide SCSI, UW-SCSI, and U2W-SCSI. Well that's true, of course. I was speaking in the context of someone's idiotic proclamation that "SCSI is dead". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Feb 12 12:46:51 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:46:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <45D0923D.10003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702121902.OAA28552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > To say "SAS isn't SCSI" or "FC isn't SCSI", it wouldn't be taking > things too much further to say "Differential SCSI isn't SCSI". HVD, yes, I'd agree. > Most of the important benefits of SCSI are in the command set, not > the type of connectors and voltage levels in use. Maybe important to you. To me, the most important single benefit of SCSI is compatability: I plug it in and it Just Works, all the way from the disk and machines dating from when 120MB was big to stuff bought new today. (Yes, mixing eras usually forces you to the lowest performance of any involved device, but the most I've ever needed to make it work is a passive adapter. Except for HVD, which is why I view HVD as a bit of a pariah.) *That* is why *I* like SCSI - and why I don't consider SAS and FC to be "real" SCSI (and, to a large extent, HVD). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 12 13:20:28 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:20:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <3EE94A7A-7BEB-43B0-B956-34A337305543@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 12, 2007 01:56:08 PM Message-ID: <200702121920.l1CJKTvQ003806@onyx.spiritone.com> > Well that's true, of course. I was speaking in the context of > someone's idiotic proclamation that "SCSI is dead". > > -Dave Maybe I should have said traditional SCSI :^) Sorry, but from a user standpoint, SAS and FC are different beast (at least I don't think I can plug a SAS drive into a standard UW-SCSI controller). Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 12 13:27:03 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:27:03 -0500 Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702121920.l1CJKTvQ003806@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200702121920.l1CJKTvQ003806@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5D5ED178-3D01-4BD0-A6C6-E6713E715750@neurotica.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 2:20 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Well that's true, of course. I was speaking in the context of >> someone's idiotic proclamation that "SCSI is dead". > > Maybe I should have said traditional SCSI :^) Sorry, but from a user > standpoint, SAS and FC are different beast (at least I don't think > I can > plug a SAS drive into a standard UW-SCSI controller). That's true of course...Part of the reason for my piping up on this subject is that this is a very gray area. One can't plug an SAS drive into a UW-SCSI controller, but one can't plug an HVD drive into a UW-SCSI controller either. Well, at least not without filling the machine room with smoke. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From grant at stockly.com Mon Feb 12 13:39:21 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:21 -0900 Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <3EE94A7A-7BEB-43B0-B956-34A337305543@neurotica.com> References: <200702121846.l1CIkCDJ002730@onyx.spiritone.com> <200702121846.l1CIkCDJ002730@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212103509.023b4a18@pop.1and1.com> At 09:56 AM 2/12/2007, you wrote: >On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Indeed, perhaps we're splitting hairs here, but I believe we could >>>easily consider both SAS and Fibre Channel to be SCSI. They are both >>>different low-level transport mechanisms for SCSI. The only possible >>>nit here is that Fibre Channel can also be used as the transport >>>mechanism for other high-level protocols like IP. >>> >>> To say "SAS isn't SCSI" or "FC isn't SCSI", it wouldn't be taking >>>things too much further to say "Differential SCSI isn't SCSI". >>> >>> Most of the important benefits of SCSI are in the command set, not >>>the type of connectors and voltage levels in use. >> >>In the case of keeping old hardware running there is a serious >>difference >>between SCSI, SAS, FC, HVD-SCSI, and U160/U320-SCSI. There is a >>lesser >>difference between Narrow SCSI, Wide SCSI, UW-SCSI, and U2W-SCSI. > > Well that's true, of course. I was speaking in the context of >someone's idiotic proclamation that "SCSI is dead". It was an opinion ("kind of"), and it was when refering to an 5390. I suppose since there are SCSI converters from SATA, then it can't die until SATA dies. Grant From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 12 14:08:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:08:20 -0600 Subject: HP gear sought References: Message-ID: <002401c74ee1$8d567490$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > I found a 1351A graphics generator on govliquidation.com; So is it available? ;) > but I've noticed that > lots of HP gear is mischaracterized as test equipment on ebay, so if > your searches don't include that category, you should consider > expanding them for HP stuff. Oh I scan the test equipment section on ebay very regularly. Jay From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 12 13:47:36 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:47:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is SCSI really, converters In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212103509.023b4a18@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <409280.74731.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It was an opinion ("kind of"), and it was when refering to an 5390. I suppose since there are SCSI converters from SATA, then it can't die until SATA dies. Grant I have been using USB to SCSI converters for my SCSI scanners and photo printer. Another way to keep SCSI alive. Bob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 12 14:49:38 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:49:38 -0600 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702121846.NAA28391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> <200702121846.NAA28391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45D0D2E2.9010300@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving (hoarding) >> older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for smaller >> machines? They seem to be drying up fast. > > It does to me - and I have been. For some time now. :-) Same here, although I tend to concentrate on ST506/412 drives because there's no (economical) way to emulate them with something else. Small-capacity IDE and SCSI units are still easy enough to find [1] in my experience, and worst-case both interfaces are documented well enough that a unit could be emulated. [1] Apart from SCSI drives that support 256 byte sectors, or IDE drives that work natively with 8-bit transfers. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 16:04:39 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:04:39 -0500 Subject: CTX Panoview 630 power supply pinout? Message-ID: Does anyone on the list have a CTX Panoview 630 (or similar, it was sold under several names) LCD monitor that can verify the power brick pinout? The connector looks like a 6-pin mini-DIN with one pin removed for keying (so that you can't plug in a keyboard, I'd expect). I picked up two of them from the Mansfield Hamfest, sans power brick, with the expectation of being able to trace out the connectors easily. I know the unit takes +5VDC and +12VDC, but since the power just seems to go into the main board, through a couple of mini-fuses, then into some DC-DC components, it's not obvious to me which would be +12 and which would be +5, even once I trace them out from the power input connector. I've grubbed around on the 'net today a bit and only have managed to verify that these were once sold as an Elo part # ELT121C TFT (w/touchscreen), but with no specifics on the power brick. Elo lists it as obsolete and replaced by a model with an integral mains power supply, which is obviously of no help to me. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 12 17:35:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:35:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP gear sought In-Reply-To: <00ef01c74e59$a27263d0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Feb 11, 7 09:55:28 pm Message-ID: > > I'm kinda sorta half-way looking for some additional HP gear that is out of > the area I normally look for.... > > HP 1340A X-Y display > HP 1350A Graphics Translator All I can say is that you'll have 'fun'... The HP1350 is an odd design -- it's all random logic, not a processor + memory type of architecture. I've read the service manual (which is quite a thick book) and I am still recovering... On tha subject, does anyone have the (service) manual for the HP1311A X-Y display? It's not on the obvious sites that I can see. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 12 17:41:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:41:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple In-Reply-To: from "Huw Davies" at Feb 12, 7 11:00:34 pm Message-ID: > The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to > check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) Are you dure? While I can well believe it averages 500,000 VAX insturctions per second, the machine was very heavily microcoded, and I refuse to believe the microcycle clock is anything like as slow as that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 12 17:18:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:18:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: (OT?) Can anyone web-host a few articles? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Feb 11, 7 11:49:16 pm Message-ID: [...] > Can anyone help by suggesting a site that might host said articles? If > so, I'll put you in touch with the magazine editor. Thanks to all who've replied... I've decided initially to take up Jay's offer, mainly because he already hosts the classiccmp list (I can assure you I have nothing against any of the other offers). If this doesn't work out, I'll ask one of the rest of you :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 12 17:37:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:37:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: <45D00E50.4010900@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Feb 12, 7 01:50:56 am Message-ID: > > The next time I come through the UK, I could stop by with a scanner and > a laptop, and we could spend an afternoon or two scanning things for > people. Would that be agreeable? If we can find eomsehre to do it, sure... Heck, if you're staying in a hotel in the London area (defined as the area where I can use a London Bus Pass :-)), I'll come to meet you with a pile of manuals. -tony From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Feb 12 08:40:53 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:40:53 -0800 Subject: Sixel graphics In-Reply-To: References: <0JD500346VGN4EW3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45D07C75.4080503@garlic.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > You're correct on the graphics support. > The only graphics in the VT100/VT101/VT102 were the DEC graphics line > drawing set -- if you can call that graphics. > > Bill > > On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: >> >> >> In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, >> Allison writes: >> >> > Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, >> > VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). >> >> Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. >> How is it possible to draw full-screen photo images on a VT320 & 420 then? Obviously they're 1-bit color and it takes a few minutes but it has been done. Must have some sort of graphics capability. I recall reading in the manuals that there was the sixel capability enabled with a particular escape sequence. The same photo image would appear in 4-bit color on the VT340. Takes longer to render. Could do the same on a plasma touch terminal (forgot the name) emulating VT100/102, as well. -- jd From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 12 19:10:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: Sixel graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:40:53 -0800. <45D07C75.4080503@garlic.com> Message-ID: In article <45D07C75.4080503 at garlic.com>, jd writes: > > On 2/9/07, Richard wrote: > >> > >> > >> In article <0JD500346VGN4EW3 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net>, > >> Allison writes: > >> > >> > Error! VT100 had sixel graphics as did VT220, 320 and 340 added color, > >> > VT1200 as full graphics (xterm). > >> > >> Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. > >> > > How is it possible to draw full-screen photo images on a VT320 & 420 then? I already explained it in my first post on this tangent thread. A VT320 or VT420 is not a VT100. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Feb 12 20:18:03 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:18:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Shameless Plug: Unisite offered In-Reply-To: <70626AB5-117C-47DF-AF91-634C9760F31D@neurotica.com> References: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> <39C5E529-88F6-4D46-95F8-EC9998FBB7A8@neurotica.com> <45D0AD65.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> <70626AB5-117C-47DF-AF91-634C9760F31D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:09 PM, woodelf wrote: >> >>> Ahh, that's you. :) I'll shoot you some tasty goodness via PayPal >>> shortly. >> >> Well I could not find the Auction Site. Good luck on your buy. > > Thank you. It will replace my trusty Data I/O 2900, which has served me > very well. I am excited about the upgrade. I wondered who nabbed it up so quickly. Not that I could afford it right now anyway :P My old ChipLab still works ok for most of the stuff I want to program, though I'm really starting to look for something that will support more pals and newer pics. Anyone know where I can get the newer software for the ChipLab (and most likely the dongle, since all the windows 3.1 software required one)? Its *way* unsupported by Data I/O now and is old enough that it might actually be considered on topic now :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Feb 12 20:21:23 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:21:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Wanted: bulk decconnect 6 conductor flat cord In-Reply-To: <45D0A86A.1050806@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <45D0A86A.1050806@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, joe heck wrote: > Toth > > I sent email directly to you about some decconnect cable I have, but > haven't heard any response. Are you all set now, or did you tag my > email as junk? Got your email and just now sent a reply. Your email just got buried in the 100s of emails I got over the weekend. [Note: I'm still looking for a spool of cable in case anyone happens across one...] -Toth From djg at pdp8.net Mon Feb 12 21:20:04 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:20:04 -0500 Subject: Tektronix terminals Message-ID: <200702130320.l1D3K4J28384@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >I'm sure that there's service documentation or schematics online somewhere. > ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ Tiff and PDF are identical so you only need to download one. In a quick look I didn't see an adjustment in section 4 stated for the problem. 6-48 says how it's supposed to work. I did find out with mine that if you have some faint ghost image from previous drawing that leaving it at the bright screen you get on power on for a minute seems to get rid of it. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 12 21:39:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:39:20 -0700 Subject: Tektronix terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:20:04 -0500. <200702130320.l1D3K4J28384@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: While the 4010 only has 3 slots in its "minibus", there is an optional minibus extender described by the user's manual that can extend the minibus to a total of 8 slots (adding 5 72-pin connectors). One of the 3 standard slots is the interface card (20ma current loop or RS-232). This is the obvious card to replace if you're doing a custom interface hack. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jrr at flippers.com Mon Feb 12 10:47:56 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:47:56 -0800 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: At 7:25 AM +0000 2/10/07, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Hi, > I'm currently looking for information on programming algorithms >for the old fuse-link PROMs (Signetics 82S series, AMD 27S series, >National Semiconductor 74S series, TI 18S series, Harris/Intersil >7000 series, Fujitsu 7000 series and MMI 6000 series). Does anyone >here have copies of the memory product databooks from any of these >manufacturers? > > I've got the Signetics Generic I algorithm (but not Generic II), >and part of the NatSemi algorithm (text only, no timing diagrams), >and nothing at all for the others. > > Main reason I'm asking is because I'm designing a programmer to do >the 82S series, and I'd like to make it as universal as possible - >i.e. if possible, I'd like it to be able to read and program the >other chips too. > > I'm willing to pay for photocopies of datasheets, or the entire >databooks if you'd rather sell the book itself. > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. Why not just buy a used DATA I/O 29B or 29A with a UniPak? This machine will burn almost every PROM that was made...and they are fairly cheap on eBay these days. In my shop I have three of these units. Two are backups if the main machine ever fails. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jrr at flippers.com Mon Feb 12 12:28:57 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:28:57 -0800 Subject: Shameless Plug: Unisite offered In-Reply-To: <45D0AD65.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200702111249420836.83ECD95D@192.168.42.129> <39C5E529-88F6-4D46-95F8-EC9998FBB7A8@neurotica.com> <45D0AD65.1050205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 11:09 AM -0700 2/12/07, woodelf wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Ahh, that's you. :) I'll shoot you some tasty goodness via >>PayPal shortly. >> >> -Dave >> > >Well I could not find the Auction Site. Good luck on your buy. >I do hope people help Phill in the other post get a NON-PC based >fuse ROM programmer built. I would like to see built that becuase every >stupid thing has to be attached to a stupid PC rather than a >old classic computer with a serial port. I'll even buy a PCB if gets >the project built. The DATA I/O 29A/B used a standard serial port...could probably hook to a MAC using a USB<->Serial adapter. Supports many PROMS and early Eproms. There were also Universal burners from Xeltek in the early 90s that would run off a serial port, Superpro II as I recall would burn many PROMs and Eproms up to about 8MB. Not to say that designing stuff isn't fun. I do have the manuals for the algorithms if he can't find them elsewhere already in PDF format - I'd need to scan mine though. John :-#)# From cmcnabb at vt.edu Mon Feb 12 13:30:58 2007 From: cmcnabb at vt.edu (Christopher McNabb) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:30:58 -0500 Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702121920.l1CJKTvQ003806@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 2/12/07 2:20 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Maybe I should have said traditional SCSI :^) Sorry, but from a user > standpoint, SAS and FC are different beast (at least I don't think I can > plug a SAS drive into a standard UW-SCSI controller). > I think that anyone who has to support end-users will tell you that you *can* plug anything into anything. You might have to use a big screw driver and a hammer, and it probably won't work afterwards, but it can be done. -- Christopher L McNabb Tel: 540 231 7554 Senior Systems Engineer Email: cmcnabb at vt.edu Virginia Tech ICBM: 37.205622N 80.414595W ARS: N2UX Grid Square: EM97SD From ballsandy at msn.com Mon Feb 12 18:41:40 2007 From: ballsandy at msn.com (john ball) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:41:40 -0700 Subject: A newbie and an IBM 5360 Message-ID: First off, I'm new to cctalk so please be easy on me. :) Anyways, I ahve always been facinated by those older pieces of history that IBM made and distrubuted. About six months ago I got the idea to start searching and find one to add to my collection of computers. After some hard searching I found this one: http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/view.cfm?ad=2372 An IBM 5360 with quite a few extras and best of all, it was free! The corestore also has one but it's less than complete. http://www.corestore.org/36.htm I thought it was perfect for a person who was starting in this new realm of computing until I spotted something: Location: Heartford, CT Shipping: Pickup only Great! the thing is all the way across the country. By the looks of it I am going to have to give it up (I doubt anyone would hold it for me, you would have to be crazy to even mention it to the wife). I'm just giving a heads up that it's in existance and if anyone wants it (or help me) they can feel free to get it. _________________________________________________________________ Find out the restaurants participating in Winterlicious http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329 >From January 26 to February 8, 2007 From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Feb 12 22:24:26 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 05:24:26 +0100 Subject: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D13D7A.9060809@iais.fraunhofer.de> Sridhar Ayengar schrieb: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Feb 11, 2007, at 2:18 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: >>> Of course, if I made a SCSI card they would be $10 without parts. >>> (not full size S-100) ; ) SCSI is kind of dead, but it would be a >>> fun card to make... >> >> [looks around] >> >> Huh? When did that happen, exactly? > > Really. How many different kind of machines are coming *brand new* > with SCSI *right now*? > > Peace... Sridhar > > It is common in 19" server racks. Rather, it is pretty uncommon NOT to find SCSI in servers; at least it is a very good indicator that a machine is likely el-cheapo consumer crap (ROHS etc leading to selfdestruction magically after end of warranty to keep the market running) if there is not at least a SCSI option Regards Holger From amaxwell800 at msn.com Tue Feb 13 00:58:44 2007 From: amaxwell800 at msn.com (Arthur Marashlian) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:58:44 -0800 Subject: HP 9845S Desktop Computer Message-ID: Hello cctalk at classiccmp.org I am insterested in an answer to the following questions: What is the dollar value of a HP 9845S Desktop Computer in good condition ? Also, the value of a 9895A Flexible Disc Memory unit with two 8 inch drives and a Controller POD with HPIB cable. Send replies to: amaxwell800 at msn.com If you would like to own one as well, then send me an email with your direct contact information. Thank's . . . amaxwell800 From grant at stockly.com Tue Feb 13 01:20:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:20:06 -0900 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212221226.04262660@pop.1and1.com> Has anyone here read this book by Edwin Black? http://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Edwin-Black/dp/0751531995/sr=8-1/qid=1171350715/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5694800-3370453?ie=UTF8&s=books I have. I was wondering what everyone else thought about it. The book makes me hate things like paper... I'm not trying to stir anything up here. I don't blame IBM as a company or dislike any of its products because of it. But reading the book was sure an eye opening experience. I just wanted to start the discussion for now. I don't have time right now to write anything decent right now. Grant From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 13 01:54:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:54:21 -0500 Subject: What is SCSI really, Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <200702121902.OAA28552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <45D0923D.10003@yahoo.co.uk> <200702121902.OAA28552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2007, at 1:46 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> To say "SAS isn't SCSI" or "FC isn't SCSI", it wouldn't be taking >> things too much further to say "Differential SCSI isn't SCSI". > > HVD, yes, I'd agree. > >> Most of the important benefits of SCSI are in the command set, not >> the type of connectors and voltage levels in use. > > Maybe important to you. To me, the most important single benefit of > SCSI is compatability: I plug it in and it Just Works, all the way > from > the disk and machines dating from when 120MB was big to stuff bought > new today. Well yes, I have to agree...perhaps "important" wasn't the word I was looking for. I suppose I meant "architecturally significant". > (Yes, mixing eras usually forces you to the lowest > performance of any involved device, but the most I've ever needed to > make it work is a passive adapter. Except for HVD, which is why I > view > HVD as a bit of a pariah.) > > *That* is why *I* like SCSI - and why I don't consider SAS and FC > to be > "real" SCSI (and, to a large extent, HVD). I'm right with you there. I was just trying to point out that "SCSI" means more than just "a 50/68/80-pin hard drive connector". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Feb 13 02:52:33 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:52:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thank you, list! Message-ID: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Just a thank-you to the list. I accidentally broke the top to a very nice filing box I've been using for years (it was designed for floppies, I think, but I now use it for paper - 8" floppies, I suspect, since an 8?" paper sheet just barely fits). Turns out acetone dissolves the plastic, and I was able to solvent-weld the pieces back together with acetone. I let it dry over the weekend and now it is all good. But I never would have thought to try that without all the discussions of such things here on the list. Hence the thanks. Neat the ways knowledge finds unexpected application! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Feb 13 06:48:32 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:48:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Punch cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm looking for a box or two of bog-standard 5081 punch cards. Besides Cardamation, is there anyone else who still has these? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Feb 13 07:54:00 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:54:00 -0600 Subject: Punch cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D1C2F8.6090205@ubanproductions.com> I don't know the answer to this question, but if you are talking about the old basic manila colored card which is blank on one side and has the column numbers on the other side, I would be interested in a box if you find them as well. --tom Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm looking for a box or two of bog-standard 5081 punch cards. > Besides Cardamation, is there anyone else who still has these? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Feb 13 01:59:47 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:59:47 +0000 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd Message-ID: <45D16FF3.BD6036C1@rain.org> > From: Dave McGuire > Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving > (hoarding) older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for > smaller machines? They seem to be drying up fast. I've been doing that for some time, and probably have about 50 or so stockpiled. BUT, it may be just a waste of time. I put up 20 100-450 MB IDE and SCSI HDs on VCM, then Ebay, and back on VCM more out of curiosity to see if there was a demand. Right now, there doesn't seem to be. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 13 10:27:21 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:27:21 -0500 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd References: <45D16FF3.BD6036C1@rain.org> Message-ID: <003501c74f8b$d6872ce0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:59 AM Subject: Re: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd > > > From: Dave McGuire > > > Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving > > (hoarding) older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for > > smaller machines? They seem to be drying up fast. > > I've been doing that for some time, and probably have about 50 or so stockpiled. > BUT, it may be just a waste of time. I put up 20 100-450 MB IDE and SCSI HDs on > VCM, then Ebay, and back on VCM more out of curiosity to see if there was a > demand. Right now, there doesn't seem to be. For me the 500MB-4GB drives are more useful (for DOS, Amiga, and 68k Mac), and I do keep the older drives (under 500MB as spares or test drives). The smallest drive I currently use is a 80 or 120MB SCSI drive in my IIgs. Shipping 20 drives probably costs more then the drives are worth to most people, try splitting the lot into smaller sections and by type. I was looking for higher capacity 50 pin SCSI drives and one joker offered a 9GB Seagate for $100 since they are RARE. My opinion on the matter is that is nobody currently wants the stuff, then most will get recycled and demand will soar at a later date. From kth at srv.net Tue Feb 13 10:56:05 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:56:05 -0700 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D1EDA5.8050203@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to >> check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) >> > > Are you dure? While I can well believe it averages 500,000 VAX > insturctions per second, the machine was very heavily microcoded, and I > refuse to believe the microcycle clock is anything like as slow as that. > I thought it was always considered a 1 MIPS machine. During its time, it was the base for most of the benchmark programs. (MIPS, MUPS, and all that) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 13 11:40:09 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:40:09 -0700 Subject: pen plotters? Message-ID: As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very expensive. OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 11:48:37 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:48:37 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/13/07, Richard wrote: > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > expensive. > > OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? Commdore 1520 mini-plotter (Alps mechanism, broken drive gears) Atari mini-plotter (same condition as 1520) HP 7475 B-sized plotter HP Draftmaster II E-sized plotter The Draftmaster was a special buy - Uni surplus, marked $100, offered to me for $50, but when I couldn't get a test plot, the price dropped to $25. Turned out to be a mis-loaded pen jamming the carousel. The hard part was getting it home and up the stairs. If this thing had the optional take-up motor, it could do arbitrary-length plots. With only the one paper-feed motor, it is limited to a few feet of paper at a time. -ethan From marvin at rain.org Tue Feb 13 04:14:02 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:14:02 +0000 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust Message-ID: <45D18F6A.B39B684A@rain.org> > From: Grant Stockly format=flowed > > Has anyone here read this book by Edwin Black? > http://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Edwin-Black/dp/0751531995/sr=8-1/qid=1171350715/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5694800-3370453?ie=UTF8&s=books Yes, I too read the book and found it interesting. However judging by quite a few comments from a google search, it appears that there might be a bias and some inaccuracies in the book. Regardless, it does make for a rather interesting read. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 12:32:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:32:32 -0500 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <45D18F6A.B39B684A@rain.org> References: <45D18F6A.B39B684A@rain.org> Message-ID: <45D20440.7010709@gmail.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: >> From: Grant Stockly format=flowed >> >> Has anyone here read this book by Edwin Black? >> http://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Edwin-Black/dp/0751531995/sr=8-1/qid=1171350715/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5694800-3370453?ie=UTF8&s=books > > Yes, I too read the book and found it interesting. However judging by quite a > few comments from a google search, it appears that there might be a bias and > some inaccuracies in the book. Regardless, it does make for a rather interesting > read. There's definitely some bias there, but from what I've read in other sources, IBM was by no means the only company capitalizing on relationships with the Nazi government. Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 12:34:57 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:34:57 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702131034o5394328dq3a16abcf0e23af8e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/13/07, Richard wrote: > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > expensive. > That reminds me with Dave talking about the HP 54201D scope, one of the cool things you would do with that is hook it up to an HP GPIB plotter and it could draw the screen and captured waveforms on the plotter. I've done that, but I forget which model HP plotter I have. From erik at baigar.de Tue Feb 13 12:40:09 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:40:09 +0100 (MET) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 2/13/07, Richard wrote: > > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > > expensive. > > > > OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? Calcomp 1038: A0 plotter, single color. Using huge 24V-DC servo motors for x and y. Command language is PCI/906. This is interpreted by a 6800 microprocessor PCB (letter-size). Coordinates are than transfered to another letter-size PCB which contains a discrete sequencer (lots of 74xx-chips) and the anolog server ciruitry. I even have got the circuit diagrams for this beast... Best regards, Erik. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 13 12:53:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:53:50 -0800 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust Message-ID: <45D198BE.21122.3279839D@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2007 at 10:14, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Yes, I too read the book and found it interesting. However judging by > quite a few comments from a google search, it appears that there might > be a bias and some inaccuracies in the book. Regardless, it does make > for a rather interesting read. I first came across this topic when it was published as an article in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. I've subsequently read critiques of the cited book as being inaccurate and biased. I can only observe that commercial interests will chase a profit no matter where it comes from. Henry Ford sold trucks to Stalin; Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker did business with the Third Riech. The Forbes and Delano families sold opium to the Chinese. The Chinese in turn are getting oil and gas from Sudan. And so it goes. It's the nature of human existence. Poke at almost any pile of money long enough and you'll find a scoundrel, murderer or horse theif. What this has taught me that corporate monied interests are amoral, looking only to increase profit. Similarly, governments largely exist to serve their own interests and, for the most part, not the interests of the governed. Our job as citizens of the world is not to expect these tigers to change their stripes, but rather to make sure that their actions are kept in the bright light of public scrutiny. Attempts to hide under some notion of confidentiality or secrecy usually provide fertile ground for mischief and need to be resisted. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Feb 13 13:20:12 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:20:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070213192013.297FA5853A@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Richard > > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > expensive. > > OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? I have a C= 1520 plotter and a Radio Shack CGP-115 4-Pen Color Graphic Printer (Cat. # 26-1192) Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Feb 13 13:21:51 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:21:51 -0600 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust References: <45D198BE.21122.3279839D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003001c74fa4$39657610$6600a8c0@BILLING> On-topic.... > I first came across this topic when it was published as an article in > IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. I've subsequently read > critiques of the cited book as being inaccurate and biased. Off-topic... > I can only observe that commercial interests will chase a profit no > matter where it comes from. ....snipsnipsnip.... It's really taking every fiber of my being not to reply to that "corporations and money are inherently evil" speech. Instead, I'll just say let's get back to on-topic stuff like computers and move along ;) Jay From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 13 13:25:01 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:25:01 -0500 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <45D198BE.21122.3279839D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> What this has taught me that corporate monied interests are amoral, looking only to increase profit. Similarly, governments largely exist to serve their own interests and, for the most part, not the interests of the governed. Typical that at least one cctalker would reply with such idiocy. Grant asked for opinions about the book itself. There's absolutely no reason to go OT and include a moronic political opinion too. Why can't people understand that "on-topic and off-topic posts" in the list header does mean we've got carte blanche to say any assinine thing? From jwest at ezwind.net Tue Feb 13 13:27:48 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:27:48 -0600 Subject: pen-plotters Message-ID: <003c01c74fa5$0e2ce590$6600a8c0@BILLING> There's actually a few really nice looking older plotters on ebay at the moment, two search examples will yield some really nice results.... HP X-Y X-Y Plotter The first will get some nice HP units including a pretty vintage one. The second will get you some other interesting hits from Roland and Bausch & Lomb. Jay From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 13 13:29:35 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:29:35 -0500 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <003b01c74fa5$4bc135a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> does mean Err, "does not mean" ... ya know what I meant. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:25 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: IBM and the Holocaust >>> What this has taught me that corporate monied interests are amoral, looking only to increase profit. Similarly, governments largely exist to serve their own interests and, for the most part, not the interests of the governed. Typical that at least one cctalker would reply with such idiocy. Grant asked for opinions about the book itself. There's absolutely no reason to go OT and include a moronic political opinion too. Why can't people understand that "on-topic and off-topic posts" in the list header does mean we've got carte blanche to say any assinine thing? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 13 13:31:14 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:31:14 +0000 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> John Robertson wrote: > Why not just buy a used DATA I/O 29B or 29A with a UniPak? This machine > will burn almost every PROM that was made...and they are fairly cheap on > eBay these days. In my shop I have three of these units. Two are backups > if the main machine ever fails. Because I don't need another huge, power-hungry piece of kit lying around. Plus I suspect I could build a PROM programmer out of stuff in my junk box, it's just that I can't get my mitts on the datasheets for the chips. TI are nice enough to put their programming algorithms online, I've found a textual description of the NatSemi algorithm (though it would be nice to have the timing diagrams, if any), and I tracked down an old rev of the 82S129 datasheet that includes some info on the Signetics Generic I algorithm. Those three would be enough to get by on for now, but it would be nice to have read and write support for e.g. the Intersil and Monolithic Memories chips. As dictated by Sod's Law, I've got the Intersil linear databooks, but not the logic/PROM/whatever databook. As far as MMI goes, I can't even find a copy of the relevant databook for sale, hence why I asked for scans or photocopies (I'm not fussy about which, and I'm willing to pay for the copying and shipping/postage). Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 13 13:19:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:19:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple In-Reply-To: <45D1EDA5.8050203@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Feb 13, 7 09:56:05 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to > >> check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) > >> > > > > Are you dure? While I can well believe it averages 500,000 VAX > > insturctions per second, the machine was very heavily microcoded, and I > > refuse to believe the microcycle clock is anything like as slow as that. > > > I thought it was always considered a 1 MIPS machine. > During its time, it was the base for most of the benchmark > programs. (MIPS, MUPS, and all that) It was. Well, but definition it's one VUP. However, 'What is an instruction?'. I've heard it said that the 11/780 averaged 500,000 of its machine instructions per second, but that that was about as much processing as 10^6 of other machine's instructions :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 13 13:29:04 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:29:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 13, 7 10:40:09 am Message-ID: > > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen There are a fair number of manuals (user, service, programming, etc) for HP pen plotters ( over on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > expensive. > > OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? A few HP Plotters (7470, 7475, Colourpro, etc). Probably the oddest one I have is the HP7470 Opt 003. It has an HPIL interface and can be driven from an HP41 handheld calculator. There's even (and I have) a speacial 'Plotter ROM' module for that calculator. A few of thost 'Alps 4 pen printers' You know, the mechanism that was used by just about everyone in the early 1980s. Tandy CGP115, Commodor 1520, Oric printer, Sharp made several (including the 'printer' for the PC1500 pocket computer)m, etc. An Epson thing that I forget the number of (perhaps somebody can identify it form the description, and suggest a source of docuemtnation). It plots on A4 sheets, rolling the paper back and forth for one axis and moving the pen carriage accorss for the other. The carriage holds 4 pens in a straight line across the paper, and by running it into stops at the ends of the printer, the pens assembly is shfited relative to the carriage, moving a different pen into the 'active' postion. The model number is something like 'HI-80' I think. A Tektronix 4662 (flatbed, single pen), HPIB and RS232 interfaces. Incidentally, a friend is looking for any service information of the multi-pen option for this unit (the service manual I have for the machine only covers the single-pen model). I don't know if you count them but I have a couple of analogue flatbed X-Y recorders, with valved electronics. IIRC one is made by Houston Instruments, the other by Bryans The thing I am looking for (in the UK for obvious reasons) is an HP9862 plotter with 9800-series interface module. Little chance of getting one, though. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 13 13:38:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:38:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: oi ancient IBM computer "Bible" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <190941.33666.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> > > ... and we could spend an afternoon or two > scanning things for > > people... If you haven't spent any significant time scanning docs, and it appears at least you haven't (i.e ignorance is bliss LOL LOL), don't plan on getting that much done in an afternoon or two. Just a friendly warning... ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 13:40:49 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:40:49 -0800 Subject: IBM tape drives on eBay (Atlanta, GA) In-Reply-To: <20070212125145.22852.qmail@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070212125145.22852.qmail@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078807906QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem > eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078807906 end time > Feb-13-07 11:47:32 PST) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078851691QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem > eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078851691 end time > Feb-13-07 13:38:03 PST) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3420-008_W0QQitemZ170078859283QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem > eBay: IBM 3420-008 (item 170078859283 end time > Feb-13-07 14:03:56 PST) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-3803-002_W0QQitemZ170078863271QQihZ007QQcategoryZ74946QQcmdZViewItem > eBay: IBM 3803-002 (item 170078863271 end time > Feb-13-07 14:14:29 PST) > I noticed a listmember put bids in on three of the tape drives. If you don't have a 3803 you need to bid on one as that is the controller. I think each 3803 controller will run two strings of 4 tape drives. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 13 13:56:46 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:56:46 -0500 Subject: IBM tape drives on eBay (Atlanta, GA) In-Reply-To: References: <20070212125145.22852.qmail@web82609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200702131456.47021.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 13 February 2007 14:40, Paxton Hoag wrote: > I noticed a listmember put bids in on three of the tape drives. If you > don't have a 3803 you need to bid on one as that is the controller. I > think each 3803 controller will run two strings of 4 tape drives. The price seems a bit high to me... But, it's one string of 8 drives, and you can have up to 2 controllers per string. And I guess, not really a "string" of drives, as each drive connects separately to the controller for both power and data. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 13 13:59:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <514272.62511.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > Typical that at least one cctalker would reply with > such idiocy. Grant > asked for opinions about the book itself. There's > absolutely no reason to > go OT and include a moronic political opinion too. > > Why can't people understand that "on-topic and > off-topic posts" in the list > header does mean we've got carte blanche to say any > assinine thing? Typical that you would excoriate someone for no good reason. My guess would have been that the original post was altogether off-topic. What has it to do with hardware or software, or anything close? Really nothing. And personally I didn't find his reply so off-topic from THE topic, and hardly offensive. Rather well put actually. I mean haven't we yet got our fill of being rude to one another? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Feb 13 14:00:19 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:00:19 +0000 Subject: Punch cards In-Reply-To: <200702131802.l1DI140Y020320@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702131802.l1DI140Y020320@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 13 Feb, 2007, at 18:02, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I'm looking for a box or two of bog-standard 5081 punch cards. > Besides > Cardamation, is there anyone else who still has these? I have some in the UK, so probably no good to you, and they are not QUITE the same as 5081, they are the same width and height but very slightly thinner, and marked up as 40 column mark sense cards, but my mainframe reads and punches them fine, and my IBM keypunch used to punch them before its drive belt broke. They are marked Kent County Council CDC 6998 & A. I bought 110,000 of them back in the 70s, put them in my father's Daimler car and drove home. Next day my father backed the car out of the garage and found I had broken the Panhard rod. Not noticeable going forwards but going backwards the axle waggled from side to side and the rear tyres rubbed on the wheel spats (the Daimler V8-250 is a Jaguar Mk2 with a 2.5 Litre V8 Daimler engine in it). By the way you didn't say if you wanted inner boxes of 2000 or outer boxes of 10,000. Roger Holmes, England. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Feb 13 14:02:49 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:02:49 -0800 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: >Our job as citizens of the world is not to expect these tigers to >change their stripes, but rather to make sure that their actions are >kept in the bright light of public scrutiny. Attempts to hide under >some notion of confidentiality or secrecy usually provide fertile >ground for mischief and need to be resisted. This quick statement summarizes in very elegant form, the foundations of what government by the people and for the people should be all about. I can't agree more. Problem is, the vast majority of folks exist either in blissful ignorance; fear; or lack of resource/understanding to challenge the status quo. I generally stay away from making any political statements online, but Chuck's great observation struck such a chord with me that I had to respond. Apologies for the lack of "on-topic" content. But, this stuff affects us all. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Feb 13 14:07:32 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:07:32 -0600 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <514272.62511.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <514272.62511.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c74faa$98c8ce80$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> LOL! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! IBM made rifles during the war too, make sure to use those. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: IBM and the Holocaust > > > --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Typical that at least one cctalker would reply with such idiocy. > > Grant asked for opinions about the book itself. There's > absolutely no > > reason to go OT and include a moronic political opinion too. > > > > Why can't people understand that "on-topic and off-topic > posts" in the > > list header does mean we've got carte blanche to say any assinine > > thing? > > Typical that you would excoriate someone for no good reason. > My guess would have been that the original post was > altogether off-topic. What has it to do with hardware or > software, or anything close? Really nothing. And personally I > didn't find his reply so off-topic from THE topic, and hardly > offensive. Rather well put actually. > I mean haven't we yet got our fill of being rude to one another? > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ______________________ > Have a burning question? > Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. > From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 13 14:15:10 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:15:10 -0500 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <003d01c74faa$98c8ce80$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <004501c74fab$a985ab20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> to make sure that their actions are kept in the bright light of public scrutiny. Attempts to hide under some notion of confidentiality or secrecy usually provide fertile ground for mischief and need to be resisted. Well he got that part right, but geez Chuck, lose the conspiracy theory. -----Original Message----- From: Julian Wolfe [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:08 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: IBM and the Holocaust LOL! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! IBM made rifles during the war too, make sure to use those. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Feb 13 14:14:59 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:14:59 +0000 Subject: pen plotters In-Reply-To: <200702131802.l1DI140Y020320@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702131802.l1DI140Y020320@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > expensive. > > OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? My company used to write pen plotter drivers for the Mac, we still sell the odd one. We used to get loads of pen plotters loaned to us by the manufacturers, and we hung on to the manuals when we could (which we usually managed). So I still have quite a library of data on the command sets for the ones made from the early 80s onward. If anyone wants any details I can probably help somehow, just have to be sure I'm not going to be sued for copyright infringement. As for actual plotters (not my personal property though, just 44% mine): HP DraftMaster MX Plus, HP 7475A Graphtec MP3200 What I would like to get my hands on is an HP 7550 in the UK. I saw one last week on eBay in the US but shipping would be too expensive. Roger Holmes. (Technical Director and 44% shareholding of Microspot Ltd) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Feb 13 14:20:55 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:20:55 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3EF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Richard wrote: As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very expensive. OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? -- --------------------------------------- Have a Calcomp 565 drum pen plotter circa 1963. Includes manual with schematics. And also has someone's home brew interface design to an 8080 on a paddle board. Do have a few manuals on other plotters. Recently found one on a Houston Instruments plotter. It'll go to Al the next time we get together. Billy From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 13 14:31:37 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:31:37 -0500 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <003d01c74faa$98c8ce80$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200702132029.l1DKTdv1077761@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:07:32 -0600, Julian Wolfe wrote: >LOL! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! >IBM made rifles during the war too, make sure to use those. Why is it that the rarest WWII M1 carbine was made by the Rockola jukebox company in Chicago, yet the one most desired by collectors is the IBM version. My guess is that there are more collectors of IBM collectables than Rockola Jukeboxes. Well at least with NRA members that is. I noticed that the link to the book that started this .... Points to a $27 paperback, when digging a bit deaper in amazon, I fond several copies for $5 or less. back under my rock ... That other Bob :-) From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Feb 13 14:37:30 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:37:30 +0000 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D2218A.1040006@gifford.co.uk> >>As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its >>even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. >>OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? I have an HP 7550, an 8-pen carousel type that can take up to A3 paper. Also got a much older drum-type plotter that's missing the pen-holder, and a low-cost BMC plotter that has four felt pens in a sort of turret head. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 13 14:37:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:37:16 -0700 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:29:04 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > > There are a fair number of manuals (user, service, programming, etc) for HP > pen plotters ( over on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . Yes, and there is a fairly decent timeline of HP plotter products there, but for other vendors? Good luck. Even the WikiPedia entry for Calcomp is surprisingly weak. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 13 14:38:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:38:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM pop-shooters In-Reply-To: <200702132029.l1DKTdv1077761@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <365649.45144.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Bradlee wrote: > Why is it that the rarest WWII M1 carbine was made > by the Rockola jukebox company in Chicago, yet the > one most desired by collectors is the IBM version. > My guess is that there are more collectors of IBM > collectables than Rockola Jukeboxes. Well at least > with NRA members that is. Probably cuz those 3 letters have become so prominent in the last couple of decades. Rarity isn't the sole determinant of an item's value. And for this I'm glad because there are several items that are *nowhere* to be found, yet are relatively valueless. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 13 14:39:35 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:39:35 -0600 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <45D22207.90807@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Because I don't need another huge, power-hungry piece of kit lying > around. But they're the best type :-( ;) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 13 15:40:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:40:23 -0800 Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2007 at 3:52, der Mouse wrote: > Turns out acetone dissolves the plastic, and I was able to solvent-weld > the pieces back together with acetone. I let it dry over the weekend > and now it is all good. Great that it worked for you, but be advised that acetone will also (in my experience) turn some plastics into grainy mush, so it's not a universal solution for plastics. Cheers Chuck From grant at stockly.com Tue Feb 13 15:46:24 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:46:24 -0900 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <45D198BE.21122.3279839D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070213124005.03b6ffe0@pop.1and1.com> At 10:25 AM 2/13/2007, you wrote: > >>> What this has taught me that corporate monied interests are amoral, >looking only to increase profit. Similarly, governments largely >exist to serve their own interests and, for the most part, not the interests >of the governed. > >Typical that at least one cctalker would reply with such idiocy. Grant >asked for opinions about the book itself. There's absolutely no reason to >go OT and include a moronic political opinion too. > >Why can't people understand that "on-topic and off-topic posts" in the list >header does mean we've got carte blanche to say any assinine thing? I had a second thought after posting that it would have been better to simply make it a suggested reading book. : ) Computers are women, right? Not metal boxes. So I suggest this whole list is off topic! ; ) There are quite a lot of descriptions of the sorters and other punch card machines in the book. What made me think about it was the IBM computer book from 1941 that has been talked about lately. OK, back to making Altair kits... By the way, someone backed out so I have one kit to sell. Its going on e-bay soon... Last one I'll have for a about two months. Grant From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 13 15:49:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:49:56 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 13, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Richard wrote: > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect > to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very > expensive. > > OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? They're not a part of my "collection" per se, as I use them fairly frequently for work purposes, but I've got two HP pen plotters here, 7550A and 7570A. I also have a 7090A Measuring Plotter, which is basically an oscilloscope with pens instead of a CRT. It's a damn fine device. I've got a 7475A in the closet but it hasn't been powered up in a decade...I suppose I'd consider that a part of my vintage collection. I had a Calcomp 565 plotter on a PDP-8/e a very long time ago, but it seems to have disappeared from my friend's basement where I left it (no choice) many years ago. I'd very much like to find another one but I'm not holding my breath. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 13 15:51:25 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:51:25 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702131034o5394328dq3a16abcf0e23af8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90702131034o5394328dq3a16abcf0e23af8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 13, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its >> even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen >> plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect >> to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very >> expensive. > > That reminds me with Dave talking about the HP 54201D scope, one of > the cool things you would do with that is hook it up to an HP GPIB > plotter and it could draw the screen and captured waveforms on the > plotter. I've done that, but I forget which model HP plotter I have. I have an HP 54111D digitizing oscilloscope, and I do exactly that with some frequency to my HP 7550A. Lately I've become enamored with talking to the scope via Agilent VEE, as that works pretty nicely, but it's slow as pissing tar when running on a "real" x86 box...it's even worse under an emulator. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 13 15:56:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:56:15 -0500 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <134FE99D-3944-4FC1-98C5-36F2E0DCEAEC@neurotica.com> On Feb 13, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Why not just buy a used DATA I/O 29B or 29A with a UniPak? This >> machine will burn almost every PROM that was made...and they are >> fairly cheap on eBay these days. In my shop I have three of these >> units. Two are backups if the main machine ever fails. > > Because I don't need another huge, power-hungry piece of kit lying > around. Huh? The 28/29 family is far from huge...about the size of three average phone books stacked atop one another. I strongly advocate building one, though, because it's cool, and a valuable experience. Far too many people nowadays would rather sit on their asses, drink watery beer, and watch other people play a game than actually CREATE something. I applaud your efforts. But I still say the Data I/O 29B is a very small box. =) > Plus I suspect I could build a PROM programmer out of stuff in my > junk box, it's just that I can't get my mitts on the datasheets for > the chips. TI are nice enough to put their programming algorithms > online, I've found a textual description of the NatSemi algorithm > (though it would be nice to have the timing diagrams, if any), and > I tracked down an old rev of the 82S129 datasheet that includes > some info on the Signetics Generic I algorithm. Those three would > be enough to get by on for now, but it would be nice to have read > and write support for e.g. the Intersil and Monolithic Memories chips. > > As dictated by Sod's Law, I've got the Intersil linear databooks, > but not the logic/PROM/whatever databook. As far as MMI goes, I > can't even find a copy of the relevant databook for sale, hence why > I asked for scans or photocopies (I'm not fussy about which, and > I'm willing to pay for the copying and shipping/postage). I *might* have an MMI databook; I will do some digging. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 13 16:11:52 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:11:52 -0000 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <016101c74fbb$f8d648a0$4f04010a@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > However, 'What is an instruction?'. I've heard it said that the 11/780 > averaged 500,000 of its machine instructions per second, but that that > was about as much processing as 10^6 of other machine's instructions The VAX-11/780 cranked out about as many Dhrystones as an IBM System/370 158 which did (apparently) chew through about one million instructions per second. Quite how the VAX-11/780 became the reference 1 MIP machine while technically cranking through only half that many instructions is something that I've never figured out. Anyone know? Oddly enough, even IBM accepts this history: http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/BFDAA658D08935 5987256B3E0075E163/$file/Benchmarking.pdf Antonio From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Feb 13 16:34:08 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:34:08 -0800 Subject: Annals - was IBM and the Holocaust Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3F3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: I first came across this topic when it was published as an article in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. I've subsequently read critiques of the cited book as being inaccurate and biased. Cheers, Chuck ------------------- This reminded me that I've been looking for copies of the Annals for a long time. I had to drop out when my IEEE subscription bill passed $300 a year. Just couldn't afford all those magazines. Now I'm sorry that I did that and have been searching for copies. Any list members have any issues they would be willing to part with? I would really like to catch up. Please write to me off line if you have any issues you can part with. Will go to a good home and be read! Billy billy.pettit at wdc.com From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 13 16:44:28 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:44:28 -0500 Subject: Annals - In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3F3@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <005101c74fc0$84fff2f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Some of the articles are on their web site. For others, I usually visit a local university technical library. -----Original Message----- From: Billy Pettit [mailto:Billy.Pettit at wdc.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:34 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Annals - was IBM and the Holocaust Chuck Guzis wrote: I first came across this topic when it was published as an article in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. I've subsequently read critiques of the cited book as being inaccurate and biased. Cheers, Chuck ------------------- This reminded me that I've been looking for copies of the Annals for a long time. I had to drop out when my IEEE subscription bill passed $300 a year. Just couldn't afford all those magazines. Now I'm sorry that I did that and have been searching for copies. Any list members have any issues they would be willing to part with? I would really like to catch up. Please write to me off line if you have any issues you can part with. Will go to a good home and be read! Billy billy.pettit at wdc.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 13 16:52:25 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:52:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) Message-ID: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > However, 'What is an instruction?'. I've heard i t > said that the 11/780 > > averaged 500,000 of its machine instructions per > second, but that that > > was about as much processing as 10^6 of other > machine's instructions > > The VAX-11/780 cranked out about as many Dhrystone s > as an > IBM System/370 158 which did (apparently) chew > through about > one million instructions per second. > **>> snip <<** > Antonio > Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure exactly? I understand MIPS (Million Instructions Per Second), FLOPS (Floating-point Operations Per Second) and G-FLOPS (Giga-FLOPS) but the aforementioned two are a mystery to me. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 13 16:57:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:57:30 -0800 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple In-Reply-To: <016101c74fbb$f8d648a0$4f04010a@uatempname> References: , <016101c74fbb$f8d648a0$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45D1D1DA.15917.33589B26@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2007 at 22:11, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Quite how the VAX-11/780 became the reference 1 MIP machine > while technically cranking through only half that many instructions > is something that I've never figured out. Anyone know? Does a MIP have any practical meaning other than comparing two machines of the same architecture? I worked on a machine during the 70's that probably had an issue rate comparable to the 11/780 but could crank out nearly 100 MFlops. It reminds me of comparing clock speeds as a measure of dissimilar processor performance. Wasn't there someone on the 6809 project who said something to the effect that if clock speed really meant something, they could have fit the 6809 with a waveguide? Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 13 17:02:38 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:02:38 +0000 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <45D22207.90807@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> <45D22207.90807@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45D2438E.1080508@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Because I don't need another huge, power-hungry piece of kit lying >> around. > > But they're the best type :-( > > ;) In some cases, that's true. My Tek 466 scope and HP 1651B logic analyser are big, power hungry and - when I need them - utterly indispensable. I wouldn't trade my 466 for anything. Well, except maybe for a Tek digital phosphor oscilloscope and a 10-year pre-paid maintenance and calibration contract :) On the other side of the coin, I've just replaced my three year old Mitsubishi Diamond Plus 74SB CRT monitor with a shiny new Viewsonic VX922 flat-panel and gained another 3" of screen space, 1ft*6in of desk space, not to mention the fact that it uses half as much power as the CRT did. No dead pixels either, which is nice. I'd have kept the CRT for a long while had the antiglare coating not started flaking off - I might spend a couple of hours tomorrow stripping it off completely, then stick an antiglare screen on the front, just to keep it as a spare. I need to check the CRT ground anyway - the screen seems to be picking up a nasty static charge, which is downright painful when you touch the screen (which you usually end up doing when trying to get near the power switch). Maybe that's down to the damaged A/G coating though. Time moves on, technology marches alongside, or so the saying goes. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 13 17:03:58 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:03:58 +0000 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple In-Reply-To: <016101c74fbb$f8d648a0$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: On 13/2/07 22:11, "arcarlini at iee.org" wrote: > Quite how the VAX-11/780 became the reference 1 MIP machine > while technically cranking through only half that many instructions > is something that I've never figured out. Anyone know? > > Oddly enough, even IBM accepts this history: Given the old machines I've been exposed to recently I can only say it's because they smelt nice when hot :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Feb 13 17:19:52 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:19:52 -0600 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070213171724.0c35ade8@localhost> At 04:52 PM 2/13/2007 -0600, you wrote: > --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > However, 'What is an instruction?'. I've heard i >t > > said that the 11/780 > > > averaged 500,000 of its machine instructions per > > second, but that that > > > was about as much processing as 10^6 of other > > machine's instructions > > > > The VAX-11/780 cranked out about as many Dhrystone >s > > as an > > IBM System/370 158 which did (apparently) chew > > through about > > one million instructions per second. > > > >**>> snip <<** >Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? >Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure >exactly? When one specifies or discusses a cpu and the associated clock speed in MHz or GHz, I would assume one is referring to the cpu clock, something which can be measured by a frequency counter on a specified pin, and probably set in in the BIOS, or on older machines, by dip switches, or on still older machines, set by the manufacturer. I think. [Philosophy] Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. (sig of Matthew Austern matt at ph ysics.berkeley.edu) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 13 17:49:44 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:49:44 -0500 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45D0D2E2.9010300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> <200702121846.NAA28391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D0D2E2.9010300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <47D5AEB6-DA5F-4DD5-948F-63EC78F91D48@neurotica.com> On Feb 12, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving >>> (hoarding) >>> older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for smaller >>> machines? They seem to be drying up fast. >> It does to me - and I have been. For some time now. :-) > > Same here, although I tend to concentrate on ST506/412 drives > because there's no (economical) way to emulate them with something > else. Small-capacity IDE and SCSI units are still easy enough to > find [1] in my experience, and worst-case both interfaces are > documented well enough that a unit could be emulated. > > [1] Apart from SCSI drives that support 256 byte sectors, or IDE > drives that work natively with 8-bit transfers. I believe the spec for the CompactFlash interface requires 8-bit mode to exist. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 13 17:49:19 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:49:19 -0600 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070213171724.0c35ade8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070213171724.0c35ade8@localhost> Message-ID: <45D24E7F.6000401@yahoo.co.uk> Tom Peters wrote: >> Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? >> Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure >> exactly? > > When one specifies or discusses a cpu and the associated clock speed in > MHz or GHz, I would assume one is referring to the cpu clock, something > which can be measured by a frequency counter on a specified pin, and > probably set in in the BIOS, or on older machines, by dip switches, or > on still older machines, set by the manufacturer. But as said, it's utterly meaningless. The only thing that matters is whether the CPU is fast enough for the required application(s)... From hexstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 18:11:06 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:11:06 -0800 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <45D198BE.21122.3279839D@cclist.sydex.com> <003801c74fa4$a8833370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702131611l10a2eddch27523e08dd8de496@mail.gmail.com> On 2/13/07, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >>> What this has taught me that corporate monied interests are amoral, > looking only to increase profit. Similarly, governments largely > exist to serve their own interests and, for the most part, not the > interests > of the governed. > > Typical that at least one cctalker would reply with such idiocy. Grant > asked for opinions about the book itself. There's absolutely no reason to > go OT and include a moronic political opinion too. > > Why can't people understand that "on-topic and off-topic posts" in the > list > header does mean we've got carte blanche to say any assinine thing? > > Maybe because there's no clear guidelines of what exactly is considered acceptable off topicness on this list? ;-) Kind of like what happened in my thread...IMO they should specify what exactly is acceptably OT to keep this kind of stuff from happening, it's too open ended now and results on people stepping on each others toes... From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Feb 13 18:31:42 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:31:42 -0600 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212221226.04262660@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212221226.04262660@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <45D2586E.5030700@brutman.com> Grant Stockly wrote: > Has anyone here read this book by Edwin Black? > > http://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Edwin-Black/dp/0751531995/sr=8-1/qid=1171350715/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5694800-3370453?ie=UTF8&s=books > > > I have. I was wondering what everyone else thought about it. > > The book makes me hate things like paper... > > I'm not trying to stir anything up here. I don't blame IBM as a company > or dislike any of its products because of it. But reading the book was > sure an eye opening experience. I just wanted to start the discussion > for now. I don't have time right now to write anything decent right now. > > Grant > I've not read that book, but I have read some of the stories on how IBM provided machinery to the Nazis. On the other hand, I've also read some of the stories (MIT Press: IBM's Early Computers) on how IBM cooperated with the US Department of War, and how IBM built a lot of neat things to support the US military. Technology is neutral. From staylor at mrynet.com Tue Feb 13 19:17:25 2007 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:17:25 -0600 Subject: HP 88780 compatibility with Emulex TC13 Message-ID: <200702140117.l1E1HPcd053087@mrynet.com> I've recently managed to get my HP 88780 drives to ALMOST work with a PDP-11/34a. The controller I'm using is an Emulex TC13, TS11 compatible. Tape movement control seems fine, but data transfers are a problem. At most I've been able to get the first one or two blocks read or written. However, the TC13 errors out and usually puts the drive offline. ultrix 3.1 and xxdp both choke when trying to talk to the 88780 drives. So, thought I'd check... Does anyone have an HP 88780 drive working with an Emulex TC13 controller? As I've tried three different drives I'm starting to wonder if the TC13 simply won't communicate well with the 88780. Please respond to staylor at smedley.mrynet.com if replying directly, or to the cctalk list. TIA, -scott From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 20:00:23 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:00:23 -0800 Subject: HP 88780 compatibility with Emulex TC13 In-Reply-To: <200702140117.l1E1HPcd053087@mrynet.com> References: <200702140117.l1E1HPcd053087@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702131800u7b3e2ca3p31333064fde6af0@mail.gmail.com> On 2/13/07, User Staylor wrote: > > So, thought I'd check... Does anyone have an HP 88780 drive working with an Emulex > TC13 controller? As I've tried three different drives I'm starting to wonder if > the TC13 simply won't communicate well with the 88780. > No answers, just more questions... So what tape drive and non-DEC controller combinations do people have working ok? I tried without any luck to get an M4Data 9914 working with a Qbus Dilog SQ703A SCSI TMSCP controller in an 11/73. I just noticed that Al posted some new 9914 manuals and I'll have to check for details on standard 9914 SCSI interface. Many thanks Al! I have a couple of different Qbus Pertec interface cards and I'll give them a try with the 9914 with the SCSI interface removed as soon as I get a couple of Pertec interface cables built. I now have the bare cables and proper IDC tools, I just need to wait until the connectors arrive to build them up. -Glen From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Feb 13 20:13:27 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:13:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200702140215.VAA15553@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] be advised that acetone will also (in my experience) turn some > plastics into grainy mush, [...] Well, I did first try applying acetone to a noncritical area of the same part, to see what it would do. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 13 21:31:55 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:31:55 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3EF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3EF@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45D282AB.80804@sbcglobal.net> Richard wrote: >As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its >even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen >plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect >to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very >expensive. > >OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? > > Pen plotters are one of the most interesting things to have on a computer. They are almost hypnotizing to watch draw, whenever I use one, I find myself just watching it work. The output can be quite high resolution on the more modern ones, with great detail for drawing maps and such. I have a Tektronix 4662 and a few 4663 "C" size flat bed plotters, along with an HP 9862, 9872, and 7221. I also have Calcomp 565 and 563 drum plotters. I have one of the Tek 4663's connected to a 4051 computer. Great combination, the vector storage tube computer driving a pen plotter. Bob From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 22:15:55 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:15:55 -0500 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <45D2438E.1080508@philpem.me.uk> References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> <45D22207.90807@yahoo.co.uk> <45D2438E.1080508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <45D28CFB.2020309@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > On the other side of the coin, I've just replaced my three year old > Mitsubishi Diamond Plus 74SB CRT monitor with a shiny new Viewsonic > VX922 flat-panel and gained another 3" of screen space, 1ft*6in of desk > space, not to mention the fact that it uses half as much power as the > CRT did. No dead pixels either, which is nice. I still use a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2040u. I am not able to find a 22"+ LCD that has the same or better image quality and costs a reasonable amount of money. Plus the CRT phosphor persistence helps when playing videos. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 13 22:19:39 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:19:39 -0600 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <45D16FF3.BD6036C1@rain.org> References: <45D16FF3.BD6036C1@rain.org> Message-ID: <45D28DDB.3090106@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: >> From: Dave McGuire > >> Speaking of which...does it make sense to start preserving >> (hoarding) older, low-capacity hard drives, be they IDE or SCSI, for >> smaller machines? They seem to be drying up fast. > > I've been doing that for some time, and probably have about 50 or so stockpiled. > BUT, it may be just a waste of time. I put up 20 100-450 MB IDE and SCSI HDs on > VCM, then Ebay, and back on VCM more out of curiosity to see if there was a > demand. Right now, there doesn't seem to be. Eventually, there might be. IDE drives from 300-500 (but under the 540MB BIOS limit of early 386s) are still somewhat sought after. I wouldn't expect more than $5 for each drive though. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 13 22:20:20 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:20:20 -0600 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd In-Reply-To: <47D5AEB6-DA5F-4DD5-948F-63EC78F91D48@neurotica.com> References: <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210172847.03e0a4d0@pop.1and1.com> <45CE8B0A.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <45CE9DB0.9020005@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210214311.024c94e0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070210220602.040f7008@pop.1and1.com> <85CC3ACA-C312-41C7-8F39-72E8BEBD2D5E@neurotica.com> <45D00D38.4080706@gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070212001236.03f70f40@pop.1and1.com> <200702121846.NAA28391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D0D2E2.9010300@yahoo.co.uk> <47D5AEB6-DA5F-4DD5-948F-63EC78F91D48@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45D28E04.900@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> [1] Apart from SCSI drives that support 256 byte sectors, or IDE >> drives that work natively with 8-bit transfers. > > I believe the spec for the CompactFlash interface requires 8-bit mode > to exist. I am using a 340MB CompactFlash II IBM microdrive as my IBM PC/XT's 2nd hard drive. So yes, it works. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 13 22:27:11 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:27:11 -0600 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45D28F9F.8040101@oldskool.org> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? There is no "one". Like most benchmarks, Dhrystone is best used as a means of measuring performance differences in like environments (ie. "I increased the clock speed and now I get XX more dhrystones" or "I optimized the compiler and got a few more dhrystones", etc.). It is not a platform-agnostic absolute measure. > Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure > exactly? The number of machine cycles per second. > I understand MIPS (Million Instructions Per > Second), FLOPS (Floating-point Operations Per > Second) and G-FLOPS (Giga-FLOPS) but the > aforementioned two are a mystery to me. Well, I don't like MIPS that much for the same reasons outlined in my first paragraph. For example, most 6502 instructions run in fewer clocks than like instructions in 8088, but 8088 has 16-bit operations for "free"... etc. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hexstar at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 00:51:20 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:51:20 -0800 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702132251y3453c8d8j3ff2a6a702207364@mail.gmail.com> On 2/13/07, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > --- arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > However, 'What is an instruction?'. I've heard i > t > > said that the 11/780 > > > averaged 500,000 of its machine instructions per > > second, but that that > > > was about as much processing as 10^6 of other > > machine's instructions > > > > The VAX-11/780 cranked out about as many Dhrystone > s > > as an > > IBM System/370 158 which did (apparently) chew > > through about > > one million instructions per second. > > > > **>> snip <<** > > > Antonio > > > > > Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? > > > > Regards, > Andrew D. Burton > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > Dhrystone From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search *Dhrystone* is a synthetic benchmarkprogram developed in 1984 by Reinhold P. Weicker intended to be representative of system (integer) programming. The Dhrystone grew to become representative of general processor (CPU) performance until it was superseded by the CPU89 benchmark suite from the Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation, today known as the "SPECint " suite. With Dhrystone, Weicker gathered meta-data from a broad range of software - including programs written in FORTRAN, PL/1, SAL, ALGOL 68, and Pascal. He then characterized these programs in terms of various common constructs - procedure calls, pointer indirections, assignments, etc. From this he wrote the Dhrystone benchmark to correspond to a representative mix. Dhrystone was published in Ada, with the C version for Unix developed by Rick Richardson ("version 1.1") greatly contributing to its popularity. Contents [hide ] - 1 Dhrystone vs Whetstone - 2 Issues addressed by Dhrystone - 3 Results - 4 See also - 5 References [edit ] Dhrystone vs Whetstone The Dhrystone benchmark contains no floating pointoperations, thus the name is a pun on the then-popular Whetstone benchmark for floating point operations. The output from the benchmark is the number of Dhrystones per second (the number of iterations of the main code loop per second). Both Whetstone and Dhrystone are *synthetic* benchmarks, meaning that they are simple programs that are carefully designed to statistically mimic some common set of programs. Whetstone, developed in 1972, originally strove to mimic typical Algol 60 programs based on measurements from 1970, but eventually became most popular in its Fortran version. Whetstone thus reflected the highly numerical orientation of computing in the 1960s. [edit ] Issues addressed by Dhrystone Dhrystone's eventual importance as an indicator of general-purpose ("integer") performance of new computers made it a target for commercial compiler writers. Various modern compiler techniques (such as dead code elimination) make the use and design of synthetic benchmarks more difficult. Version 2.0 of the benchmark, released by Weicker and Richardson in March of 1988, had a number of changes intended to foil a range of compiler techniques. Yet it was carefully crafted so as not to change the underlying benchmark. This effort to foil compilers was only partly successful. Dhrystone 2.1, released in May of the same year, had some minor changes and remains the current definition of Dhrystone. Other than issues related to compiler optimization, various other issues have been cited with the Dhrystone. Most of these were understood at the time of its publication in 1984 - including the small code size and small data set size. More subtle is the slight over-representation of string operations, which is largely language related: both Ada and Pascal have strings as first class citizens in the language, whereas C does not, so what was simple variable assignments in reference benchmarks became buffer copy operations in the C library. Dhrystone remains remarkably resilient as a simple benchmark. It is easy to use, well documented, is fully self-contained, is well understood, and can be made to work on almost any system. In particular, it has remained in broad use in the embedded computing world, though the recently developed * EEMBC * benchmark suite is likely to supersede it in that role just as SPEC's CPU89 did for the general computing and server markets. Still, 20 years of continued use is quite a testament to Weicker's careful design and foresight. [edit ] Results Dhrystone tries to represent the result more meaningfully than MIPS (million instructions per second), because MIPS cannot be used across different instruction sets (e.g. RISC vs. CISC) for the same computation requirement from users. Thus, the main score is just Dhrystone loops per second. Another common representation of the Dhrystone benchmark is the *DMIPS* - Dhrystone MIPS- obtained when the Dhrystone score is divided by 1,757 (the number of Dhrystones per second obtained on the VAX 11/780, nominally a 1 MIPS machine). [edit ] See also Benchmark (computing) Whetstone (benchmark) [edit ] References - Newsgroup posting for calculation of DMIPS - http://www.netlib.org/benchmark/dhry-c c version of Dhrystone in a sh file. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 14 00:55:58 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:55:58 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? References: Message-ID: <45D2B278.7803BE6A@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > The thing I am looking for (in the UK for obvious reasons) is an HP9862 > plotter with 9800-series interface module. Little chance of getting one, > though. I have an HP9872A with both the 98135A interface module for HP-IB and the 98130A interface module for the 9815 calculator. I received it some time ago as a package with a 9815, but have yet to take the time to get up to speed with all the plotter stuff to even exercise it. What I find interesting is the plotter has a 16-bit 5MHz single-chip microprocessor (identified in the service manual only as "HP Microprocessor (P.N. 1818-2500)") - pretty spiffy for 1977. One of HP's internal developments that I don't hear or see much info about. The service manual doesn't provide any info about the microproc internal architecture. From jrr at flippers.com Tue Feb 13 15:36:21 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:36:21 -0800 Subject: Punch cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:48 AM -0500 2/13/07, Mike Loewen wrote: > I'm looking for a box or two of bog-standard 5081 punch cards. >Besides Cardamation, is there anyone else who still has these? > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ What are the dimensions? I might have a bunch of cards from an old coin-op game that look like they could have been punch cards in another life. They have three rounded corners and one corner cut off. About 3 by 8 inches - from memory. So if you do not mind them claiming to tell your fortune (SEGA Astrology game cards) they might help you out... John :-#)# From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Feb 14 01:08:24 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:08:24 -0000 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <45D28F9F.8040101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <018301c75006$eca26500$4f04010a@uatempname> Jim Leonard wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure >> exactly? > > The number of machine cycles per second. It's the fastest clock you can claim to have anywhere in your machine while keeping a straight face :-) Acually, to be fair, manufacturers weren't quite that bad (usually) but identifying the fastest clock is actually quite hard, even if you are trying to be honest! As CPU cycle times dropped, it was quite often the case that the external clock might be running at say 20MHz so that the rest of the slow external world could keep up but that was doubled inside the chip to perhaps 40MHz. In other cases the external clock might be quite high but would be split internally to provide the phases required to clock the various CPU stages. Sometimes the manufacturer would publish a cycle time, but as pipelined architectures came to the fore those cycle times became less useful, so then they started to publish instructions per tick or clocks per instruction. Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 14 01:22:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:22:55 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: References: <1e1fc3e90702131034o5394328dq3a16abcf0e23af8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 13, 2007, at 4:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its >>> even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen >>> plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect >>> to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very >>> expensive. >> >> That reminds me with Dave talking about the HP 54201D scope, one of >> the cool things you would do with that is hook it up to an HP GPIB >> plotter and it could draw the screen and captured waveforms on the >> plotter. I've done that, but I forget which model HP plotter I have. > > I have an HP 54111D digitizing oscilloscope, and I do exactly > that with some frequency to my HP 7550A. Gads, pardon my crappy grammar. I was trying to say "I do that a lot". :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 14 01:30:31 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:30:31 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi If anyone is interested, I have a line on a large Calcomp pen plotter. it is a dual pen type. It has a large sheet of vellum (sp?) that rolls over drums at the top and bottom of the plotter. To my knowledge, it is free to someone that has a truck to take it away. It is located off hwy 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz in California. Dwight >From: Richard >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: pen plotters? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:37:16 -0700 > >In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > > > As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its > > > even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen > > > > There are a fair number of manuals (user, service, programming, etc) for >HP > > pen plotters ( over on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . > >Yes, and there is a fairly decent timeline of HP plotter products >there, but for other vendors? Good luck. Even the WikiPedia entry >for Calcomp is surprisingly weak. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! _________________________________________________________________ Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG From useddec at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 01:37:48 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:37:48 -0600 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> Hi Pat, Do you have any other VT340's or parts? Would your friend be interested in trading his? Thanks, Paul Anderson -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Humpty Dumpty On Thursday 08 February 2007 09:06, Richard wrote: > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. Like the 3278-S3G I got off ebay recently, the VT340, which I traded to a friend for a 68040 VME CPU board, or any of the NCD or HDS Xterminals I've got laying around. :) Oh, and I've got a couple IBM Xterminals, too.. And I almost had a pair of E&S PS390s. Unfortunately, I discovered that all the boards were removed by the time I got them, when I went to pick them up. :( Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kenzolist at counterfolk.com Wed Feb 14 01:56:47 2007 From: kenzolist at counterfolk.com (Ken) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:56:47 -0500 Subject: IBM and the Holocaust In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070212221226.04262660@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <2.08260893821716.99.4275324344635@1.00008121376851> At 10:20 PM 2/12/2007 -0900, Grant Stockly wrote: >I'm not trying to stir anything up here. I don't blame IBM as a company or dislike any of its products because of it. But reading the book was sure an eye opening experience. I just wanted to start the discussion for now. I don't have time right now to write anything decent right now. FYI, two recent movies that also touch upon this subject are the documentary "The Corporation" , which I recall having a few shots of old computers during that scene, and "The Fog of War" , an interview film with Robert McNamara featuring a Philip Glass soundtrack that includes a piece called "IBM Punch Cards" (a piece I naturally had to listen to immediately, although I still haven't seen the film!). - Ken From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Feb 14 04:47:48 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:47:48 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? Message-ID: <01C74FFB.E6558B60@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Messages: Message: 23 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:20:55 -0800 From: "Billy Pettit" Subject: pen plotters? Richard wrote: As difficult as it is to find information on vintage terminals, its even harder to find information on vintage pen plotters. A pen plotter was about the only form of graphical output you could expect to see on a vintage graphics system as film recorders were very expensive. OK, what do you have in your collection(s)? --------------------------------------- ==Mike's Reply: HP7475A CGP-115 ================= Do have a few manuals on other plotters. Recently found one on a Houston Instruments plotter. It'll go to Al the next time we get together. Billy ==Mike's Reply: Which Houston plotter? 595/695 ? mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Feb 14 05:18:34 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:18:34 -0500 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms Message-ID: <01C74FFF.F6E1DAC0@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message: Message: 11 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:31:14 +0000 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Re: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms TI are nice enough to put their programming algorithms online, I've found a textual description of the NatSemi algorithm (though it would be nice to have the timing diagrams, if any), and I tracked down an old rev of the 82S129 datasheet that includes some info on the Signetics Generic I algorithm. Those three would be enough to get by on for now, but it would be nice to have read and write support for e.g. the Intersil and Monolithic Memories chips. As dictated by Sod's Law, I've got the Intersil linear databooks, but not the logic/PROM/whatever databook. As far as MMI goes, I can't even find a copy of the relevant databook for sale, hence why I asked for scans or photocopies (I'm not fussy about which, and I'm willing to pay for the copying and shipping/postage). Thanks. -- Phil -----------Reply: If you don't find 'em elsewhere, I've got Harris ('78), Intel ('76), Signetics ('78) and National ('77) databooks in front of me. Don't know about Intersil; was looking in the MMI book a while back, but now I can't remember where I put it down at the time (probably the same place as the cordless phone ;). mike From djg at pdp8.net Wed Feb 14 07:52:56 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:52:56 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? Message-ID: <200702141352.l1EDquf16817@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> I have a Calcomp 563 drum plotter on my 8/E. http://www.pdp8.net/563/563.shtml (need to make a better page now that I have it running. Showed it at the last VCF east) About as basic as can be. No command language here, it needs a pulse from the computer for each .005 inch step. The 8/E control card required you to execute an instruction to generate each pulse. Plots about 1.5 inches per second. The 30" pin feed paper the plotter want also doesn't seem to be available any more. For VCF I did some searching online for some good pen plot files to use to demo but didn't find much. Anybody know of some good ones? The format isn't important since I can find/write a program to translate. I ended up using the samples from tek2plot that I used to demo my 4010. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 14 07:59:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:59:21 -0800 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <018301c75006$eca26500$4f04010a@uatempname> References: <45D28F9F.8040101@oldskool.org>, <018301c75006$eca26500$4f04010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <45D2A539.32.36923E36@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Feb 2007 at 7:08, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > It's the fastest clock you can claim to have anywhere > in your machine while keeping a straight face :-) ...And sometimes, (particularly in the Pentium I look-alike game) it can mean a number that bears no relationship to any particular physical quantity. Consider, for example the Cyrix/IBM Pentium "clones". Rated in "PR" numbers which was a synthetic quantity that was supposed to resemble the clock speed that an Intel Pentium *would* have had to operate at to deliver equivalent performance. Mostly, the PR numbers were sheer twaddle aimed at a na?ve public. But then, most benchmarks are nearly useless once vendors get a chance to figure them out. In the 80's, a synthetic benchmark for PCs was the Landmark Speed test number, which attempted to assign a value based on how much faster one's particular machine was than a stock 5150 PC. You could go to a show and the silly test would be running on just about every vendor of Far East clone PCs. I think the Landmark test was mostly notable for measuring public gullibility. As an aside, I wonder how many Landmark PC diagnostic kits were actually sold (I have a couple, complete with alignment discs and port loopback connectors). Even well-intentioned attempts at measuring computer performance across all platforms can run aground. Sometime in the mid 70's to early 80's, a suite of tests called Linpack (written in FORTRAN) to measure supercomputer performance. Once it became known that customers were using the Linpack numbers to rate processors according to perceived speed, vendors would start tweaking compilers and then later hardware to deliver higher numbers. In particular, I remember a startup firm named Saxpy whose machine architecture was designed to run the Linpack test of the same name (essentially a sum of two vectors times a scalar constant and probably less than 50 lines of code). I don't know what became of the firm, but one of their boxes would certainly be a collector's item today. This, of course was nothing new. In the days of big iron, there were groups within many vendor marketing organizations dedicated to running potential customer-supplied benchmarks in order to qualify in the bidding process, usually by any means possible. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 14 08:57:35 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:57:35 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? Message-ID: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to use your real name here? "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 14 09:15:43 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:15:43 -0600 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> <5dc6fd9e0702132251y3453c8d8j3ff2a6a702207364@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004a01c7504b$01b8b540$6600a8c0@BILLING> Andrew wrote.... >> Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? To which Hex Star replied.... > Dhrystone From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: ...snip... Just a url link would have been fine :) Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 14 09:17:22 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:17:22 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <200702141352.l1EDquf16817@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: >From: djg at pdp8.net > >I have a Calcomp 563 drum plotter on my 8/E. >http://www.pdp8.net/563/563.shtml (need to make a better page now >that I have it running. Showed it at the last VCF east) > >About as basic as can be. No command language here, it needs a pulse >from the computer for each .005 inch step. The 8/E control card required >you to execute an instruction to generate each pulse. Plots about 1.5 >inches per second. > Hi There was usually an interface box between the computer and the plotter that translated some vector language to plotter actions. >The 30" pin feed paper the plotter want also doesn't seem to be available >any more. You generally didn't plot on the part with the pin holes, you'd tape a sheet on that to plot on. At least that is the way we used the plotter we had. We did 4X plots of PCB on clear film. Dwight > >For VCF I did some searching online for some good pen plot files to use >to demo but didn't find much. Anybody know of some good ones? The format >isn't important since I can find/write a program to translate. I ended >up using the samples from tek2plot that I used to demo my 4010. > _________________________________________________________________ Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards? http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2 From josefcub at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 09:26:10 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:26:10 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9e2403920702140726n46dfe19bi9d28f47c2afa9eb5@mail.gmail.com> Al, On 2/14/07, Al Kossow wrote: > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > use your real name here? I don't use my real name here. I use the real-life (and online) nickname I've had for many years. I'd prefer not to use my real name, simply because I haven't had to respond to it, nor use it in more than an official capacity (at the DMV). While some handles or monikers are hard on the tongue, I don't see much harm in it. It's not like we actually have to speak these names, on the list. :) ...Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 14 09:26:55 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:26:55 -0700 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:57:35 -0800. <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45D3235F.8070709 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > use your real name here? And just how will you tell if its "real"? There's no point, really. There's also no need. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Feb 14 09:35:26 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:35:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200702141537.KAA29133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to use your real > name here? > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else on this list > uses their real name, not a "handle". Depending on what you mean by "real name", I may be a counterexample. (I do use the realest name I have here, but many people mean an ill-defined something else by the term, usually meaning in my case a name I don't use online.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 14 01:44:36 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:44:36 +0000 Subject: Small hard drives, was Re: Tower of Nerd Message-ID: <45D2BDE4.A7CD6D07@rain.org> > From: Jim Leonard mat=flowed > > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I've been doing that for some time, and probably have about 50 or so stockpiled. > > BUT, it may be just a waste of time. I put up 20 100-450 MB IDE and SCSI HDs on > > VCM, then Ebay, and back on VCM more out of curiosity to see if there was a > > demand. Right now, there doesn't seem to be. > > Eventually, there might be. IDE drives from 300-500 (but under the > 540MB BIOS limit of early 386s) are still somewhat sought after. I > wouldn't expect more than $5 for each drive though. I think the $25.00 for a quantity of 20 drives is under $5.00 each :). From drb at msu.edu Wed Feb 14 09:47:26 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:47:26 -0500 Subject: Head lock, CDC 9720-500 Message-ID: <200702141547.l1EFlRej032471@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I'm preparing to have several 8" sealed HDA SMD drives shipped to me. They're what Prime called a model 4735 496 MB drive, and CDC called (I think) a 9720-500. If the manual is on Bitsavers, I don't know what it looks like. Is there a shipping lock on the heads of these drives? How to set it? Thanks, De From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 14 09:49:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:49:56 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <200702141537.KAA29133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <200702141537.KAA29133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45D32FA4.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to use your real >> name here? > >> "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else on this list >> uses their real name, not a "handle". > > Depending on what you mean by "real name", I may be a counterexample. You were the immediate counter-example that I thought of :) Heck, I don't use the name that's on my birth certificate. I even suspect that Al may well technically be an Alan or an Albert... I can't see why it's such a big deal myself. Jay, any plans to ask for fingerprints of list members? ;) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 14 09:56:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:56:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D32FA4.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Feb 14, 7 09:49:56 am" Message-ID: <200702141556.l1EFuTQm012802@floodgap.com> > I can't see why it's such a big deal myself. Jay, any plans to ask for > fingerprints of list members? ;) Actually, my name is George. I just play the President on TV. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The reason is for fun, the most practical of all reasons. -- Jerome H. Fine From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 14 10:19:19 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:19:19 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D33687.2090201@atarimuseum.com> I think that makes sense, this isn't some teen club mailing list, NeXt ThInG yOu KnOw WeLl AlL sTaRt TyPiNg LiKe ThIs Curt Al Kossow wrote: > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > use your real name here? > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 14 10:26:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:26:49 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org><200702141537.KAA29133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D32FA4.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004801c75054$f3eb7d80$6600a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > I can't see why it's such a big deal myself. Jay, any plans to ask for > fingerprints of list members? ;) Absolutely not! Nor will there be a drivers license check, or anything like that. However, if people don't use their real name or at least a normal sounding nickname they can't be expected to be taken seriously by everyone. That's not a policy I need to put forth... each listmember will make their own call about others based on it I'm sure. ok, forget that... here is a better way to put it.... If people insist on using silly names like "Nosila the Magic User" or "Luke Skywalker" or "Gakor King of Vithra"... or even worse... "Iceman"... they will simply be laughed off the channel ;) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 14 10:30:45 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:30:45 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <45D33687.2090201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <005301c75055$813ab8e0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Curt of the Atari wrote... >I think that makes sense, this isn't some teen club mailing list, NeXt > ThInG yOu KnOw WeLl AlL sTaRt TyPiNg LiKe ThIs YeW R0CK d00d. I got some e733t K001 warez man. JarJar ROTFLMAO From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 14 10:48:59 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:48:59 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> References: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> Message-ID: <200702141149.00052.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 14 February 2007 02:37, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Pat, > > Do you have any other VT340's or parts? Would your friend be > interested in trading his? Sorry, no. After realizing how much the seem to be worth for some reason (hasn't someone written an emulator yet?), I'll be sure to get it back when doesn't want it anymore.. Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:19 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Humpty Dumpty > > On Thursday 08 February 2007 09:06, Richard wrote: > > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. > > Like the 3278-S3G I got off ebay recently, the VT340, which I traded > to a friend for a 68040 VME CPU board, or any of the NCD or HDS > Xterminals I've got laying around. :) Oh, and I've got a couple IBM > Xterminals, too.. > > And I almost had a pair of E&S PS390s. Unfortunately, I discovered > that all the boards were removed by the time I got them, when I went > to pick them up. :( > > Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Feb 14 10:58:10 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:58:10 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <005301c75055$813ab8e0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Jay West wrote: > Curt of the Atari wrote... > >I think that makes sense, this isn't some teen club mailing list, NeXt > > ThInG yOu KnOw WeLl AlL sTaRt TyPiNg LiKe ThIs > YeW R0CK d00d. I got some e733t K001 warez man. > > JarJar > > ROTFLMAO > JarJar??? You're scaring me Jay. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.39/685 - Release Date: 2/13/2007 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 14 11:03:03 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:03:03 +0000 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <45D28CFB.2020309@gmail.com> References: <45CD7357.6090000@philpem.me.uk> <45D21202.2040807@philpem.me.uk> <45D22207.90807@yahoo.co.uk> <45D2438E.1080508@philpem.me.uk> <45D28CFB.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D340C7.8040001@philpem.me.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I still use a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2040u. I am not able to find a > 22"+ LCD that has the same or better image quality and costs a > reasonable amount of money. Which is fair enough - the larger CRTs tend to be better than the larger TFTs. 19" seems to be the 'sweet spot' where you can still get decent quality. That said, a 19" TFT is 19" viewable - a 20" CRT could be anything from 17 to 19.5" viewable. > Plus the CRT phosphor persistence helps when playing videos. I've not had any trouble with video on the Viewsonic. Only problem I've had is when switching from analogue to digital when both sources have the same display resolution. Seems the firmware can't handle that, and just locks up (you have to unplug it to get a picture again). Oh, and it seems to come up in analogue mode on startup - unplugging the VGA cable from the KVM might fix that little issue though. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From evan at snarc.net Wed Feb 14 11:32:08 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:32:08 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <005301c75055$813ab8e0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000001c7505e$0e526fe0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> My name is real but I'm not. -----Original Message----- From: Jay West [mailto:jwest at classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: requirement for use of your real name on this list? Curt of the Atari wrote... >I think that makes sense, this isn't some teen club mailing list, NeXt >ThInG yOu KnOw WeLl AlL sTaRt TyPiNg LiKe ThIs YeW R0CK d00d. I got some e733t K001 warez man. JarJar ROTFLMAO From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 14 12:04:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:04:12 -0600 Subject: HP minicarts found Message-ID: <000501c75062$8c566dc0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Was going through all my HP paper tapes to inventory them and came across the following mini-cart cartridge tapes (the kind you use in a 264x terminal, DC100 I think). Unfortunately it is an obviously incomplete set, but thought I'd list it here in case anyone is desperate for one of them. They are all original HP labels. RTE II + III + IV, MINI-CART (PE), #1 (C) rev 1840 RTE II ONLY, MINI-CART (PE), #2 (C) rev 1840 DG 1000 CRTG #1*, MINI-CART PE FMGR, 24998-13301 (C) REV 2326 DG 1000 CRTG #2, MINI-CART PE FMGR, 24998-13302 (C) REV 1926 DG 1000 CRTG #5, MINI-CART PE FMGR, 24998-13305 (C) REV 1822 Jay West From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 12:15:53 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:15:53 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: That is my real name, you insensitive clod! ;) -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 14 12:19:56 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:19:56 -0800 Subject: CDC (Imprimis) 8" 500mb drive Message-ID: <45D352CC.7010906@bitsavers.org> Would be a PA8E1 Seagate changed the part numbers when they took over the product line. I don't think it has a manual head lock Have a manual scanned, will get it on line. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 12:38:42 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:38:42 -0800 Subject: HP minicarts found In-Reply-To: <000501c75062$8c566dc0$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <000501c75062$8c566dc0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702141038g69d8f79ne2f9de7dc2166f89@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/07, Jay West wrote: > Was going through all my HP paper tapes to inventory them and came across > the following mini-cart cartridge tapes (the kind you use in a 264x > terminal, DC100 I think). Unfortunately it is an obviously incomplete set, > but thought I'd list it here in case anyone is desperate for one of them. > They are all original HP labels. > Even if someone was desperate for any of those tapes, what are the chances they would still be readable at this point and there wouldn't be spots where the oxide has flaked off? I gave up after trying to read a couple of HP1000 diag tapes on 264x media quite a while ago. But that's ok since you're going to have a complete set of HP1000 diags available real soon now, and I can wait until then. :-) -Glen From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 14 13:05:57 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:05:57 -0600 Subject: hp tape inventory Message-ID: <001001c7506b$29112260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, here's the list of all my paper tapes..... UTILITY 352 REV B TRACE/MEMORY MODIFY 00-090-10014 TEST COMMUNICATION INV2 INVOICING ONTARIO SALES TAX UTILITY TRACK NOV 18TH 1974 LIST UTIL UTILITY 576 UTILITY 352 REV B DEC 11/74 UTILITY 352 REV B UTIL 352 DVR30 DVR23 DVR00 RTE MARK SENSE DRVR (DVR15) 12602B KIT BINARY 20821-60001 REV B D26XX DVR01 DISCM UNCONFIG BOOT 7920 DSGEN 7920 EXEC MODULES DOS III EXEC MODULES BINARY 24307-60003 REV A 16K SIO SYSTEM DUMP ABS BINARY 20335-60001 REV B 16K SIO TAPE READER DRIVER ABS BINARY 20319-60001 REV A 8K SIO MARK SENSE CARD READER DRIVER BINARY 20521-60001 REV C 4K SIO MARK SENSE CARD READER DRIVER BINARY 20520-60001 REV C 12K SIO HP7970 MAG TAPE DRIVER BINARY 24312-60001 REV A 8K SIO HP7970 MAG TAPE DRIVER BINARY 13021-60001 REV B 8K SIO HP2610A/2614A LINE PRINTER DRIVER BINARY 24269-60001 REV A 12K SIO 2610/2614 PRINTER DRIVER BINARY 24303-60001 REV A DOS III EFMP S/W VERSION (NON-EAU) $EX30 24309-60001 REV A EFMP DOS III EFMP H/W VERSION (EAU) $EX30 24309-60002 REV A DOS III EFMP UTIL AND SUBROUTINES 24309-60003 REV A EXTENDED ASSEMBLER FLOATING POINT BINARY 24246-60001 REV A RTE/DOS RELOCATABLE LIBRARY (NON-EAU) BINARY 24150-60001 REV D RTE/DOS RELOCATABLE LIBRARY FLOATING POINT BINARY 24248-60001 REV B RTE/DOS RELOCATABLE LIBRARY (EAU) BINARY 24151-60001 REV D DOS-M ASSEMBLER MAIN CONTROL BINARY 24158-60001 REV B !DSKUP(1805) 92060-16044 DVR05 D2892 DVR02 DVR67 DVR00 DVR15 DVR73 & DVR74 DVR71 & DVR72 DVR70 16K SIO HP2610A/2614 LINE PRINTER DRIVER BINARY 24270-60001 REV A 16K SIO MARK SENSE CARD READER DRIVER BINARY 20522-60001 REV C 16K SIO HP7970 MT DRIVER BINARY 13022-60001 REV B FF4.N(1726) 24998-16002 FLIB.N(1723) 24998-16003 RTE/DOS FORTRAN IV (10K COMPILER AREA) BINARY 1 OF 2 24177-60001 REV B DOS CROSS REFERENCE ROUTINE BINARY 24223-60001 REV B 24377-16001 1446 DOS DVR73 12920A/B MULTIPLEXOR DVR73 ASYNC MUX PHYSICAL DVR 5/15/74 DOS III RELOCATING LOADER BINARY 24308-60001 REV A DVR31 7920 XREF RLIB.N (1726) 24998-16001 DOS-M ASSEMBLER SEGMENT D BINARY 24159-60002 REV B DOS-M SEGMENT 1 BINARY 24158-60003 REV B DOS-M SEGMENT 2 BINARY 24158-60004 REV B DOS-M SEGMENT 3 BINARY 24158-60005 REV B DOS-M SEGMENT 4 BINARY 24158-60006 REV B DOS-M SEGMENT 5 BINARY 24158-60007 REV B RELOCAT TBG DRVR 24380-18019 D.43 2-1021-001-06 2-1044-006-01 UTIL 352 1-1001-060-00 HP2610/2614 LINE PRINTER DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 24275-60001 REV B 2100 TAPE READER TEST BINARY 24189-60001 REV B 2100 TIME BASE GENERATOR TEST BINARY 24213-60001 REV B 7261 OPTICAL MARK READER DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 72010-60001 REV A RTE/DOS FORTRAN IV LIBRARY BINARY 24152-60001 REV C ASYNC TERM LOGICAL DVR 1 (ATD01) RELO BINARY 24381-16001 REV 1419 RTE/DOS RELOCATABLE LIBRARY FLOATING POINT BINARY 24248-60001 REV B EXTENDED ASSEMBLER EAU BINARY 24032-60001 REV B RTE/DOS ALGOL MAIN CONTROL BINARY 24129-60001 REV C RTE/DOS ALGOL SEGMENT 1 BINARY 24129-60002 REV C SEND(ONLY) INTERFACE (12622) TEST BINARY 20393-60001 REV A BCS TTY DRVR D.00 BINARY 20017-60001 REV C BCS 2610A/2614A LINE PRINTER DRIVER (D.12) BINARY 24273-60001 REV A BCS TAPE READER DRIVER D.01 BINARY 20005-60001 REV B 2100 RECEIVE(ONLY) INTERFACE (12621) TEST BINARY 24220-60001 REV A RECEIVE(ONLY) INTERFACE (12621) TEST BINARY 20538-60001 REV A BCS 2762A/2615A DRIVER (D.26) RELO BINARY 24330-60001 REV A INPUT/OUTPUT CONTROL BINARY 24173-60001 REV A BCS RELOCATABLE LIBRARY FLOATING POINT BINARY 24250-60001 REV B BCS RELOCATABLE LIBRARY (EAU) BINARY 24145-60001 REV B DOS-M STRING ARITH. BINARY 24306-60001 REV A OFFLINE DISK BACKUP STANDALONE BVR05, DVR00 BCS HPRJE SYSGEN 7/9/74 (PARTIAL UNLABLED TAPE) CHERN - DOS-M 4/9/74 BCS TAPE PUNCH DRIVER D.02 BINARY 20006-60001 REV B BCS RELOCATING LOADER BINARY 20018-60001 REV H MEMORY REF. INSTRUCTION TEST BINARY 24209-60001 REV A 2100 SHIFT-ROTATE INSTRUCTION TEST BINARY 24210-60001 REV A ALTER-SKIP INSTRUCTION TEST BINARY 24209-60001 REV A 2100 MEMORY PARITY CHECK TEST BINARY 24198-60001 REV B 2100 LOW MEMORY ADDRESS TEST BINARY 24211-60001 REV A 2100 LOW MEMORY PATTERN TEST BINARY 24193-60001 REV A 2100 HIGH MEMORY PATTERN TEST BINARY 24194-60001 REV A HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY MPON SOURCE 24 24380-18024 REV 1402 DATA BASE MANAGEMENT LIBRARY ROUTINES RELO BINARY 24376-16012 REV 1419 DATA BASE UTILITY PROGRAMS RELO BINARY 02 02 24376-16004 REV 1419 DATA BASE UTILITY PROGRAMS RELO BINARY 01 02 24376-16003 REV 1419 DATA BASE MANAGEMENT ROUTINES RELO BINARY 24376-16010 REV 1419 DATA BASE MANAGEMENT HASHING ROUTINES RELO BINARY 24376-16011 REV 1419 2100 ASYNC MPLXR CONTROL TEST BINARY 24255-60001 REV B 2100 ASYNC CHANNEL MPLXR DIAG BINARY 24252-60001 REV A BCS MARK SENSE DRVR. (D.15) 12602B KIT BINARY 20819-60001 REV C BCS MARK SENSE DRVR. (D.15) 12602B KIT BINARY 20819-60001 REV C HP REMOVE JOB ENTRY SWOP SOURCE 26 24380-18026 REV 1402 SWOPS 9/30/74 GOOD? CNVTI- RELOCATABLE 12/11/74 HPRJ PATCHED 10AM 16 MAY BCS RJE D.50 COMPILED 2/20/74 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY CNVTI SOURCE 20 24380-18020 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY B2ASC SOURCE 21 24380-18021 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY MPOF SOURCE 25 24380-18025 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY CB2EB SOURCE 23 24380-18023 REV 1402 24377-18001 1438 24377-18002 24377-18003 1438 SLC DRIVER RELOCATABLE 24307-16010 (1438) QUERY HELP FILE SOURCE 24376-18001 REV 1419 DEC STR ARIT 16K SIO TELEPRINTER (LP-COMPAT) ABS BINARY 24127-60001 REV A 16K SIO TTY DRVR REV A 16K SIO TTY DRVR 20330-60001B LOADER LOADER ROB PORTER AS2BI RELO 24380-18022 RELOC CNVTI 24380-18020 RELOC B2ASC 24380-18021 RELOC CB2EB 24380-18023 RELOC MPOF 24380-18025 RELOC SWOP 24380-18026 RELOC REMOT 24380-18027 2000E COMMAND TAPE 1 OF 3 02000-90075 2000E COMMAND TAPE 2 OF 3 02000-90075 2000E COMMAND TAPE 3 OF 3 02000-90075 2000E TSB REV C CORE DUMP UTILITY ORG 37400B FEB 74 2000E TO 2000F CONVERSION BINARY 24378-16001 REV 1640 2100 MEMORY PROTECT TEST BINARY 24222-60001 REV A 2100 DMA DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 24195-60001 REV A (PARTIAL {TORN} TAPE, NO LABEL) HP2000E TSB LOADER/UTILITY 24285-60001 REV C (PARTIAL {TORN} TAPE, NO LABEL) 16K SIO TTY DRIVER (LP-COMPAT) BINARY 24127-60001 REV A 2100 PROCESSOR INTERCONNECT CABLE TEST SOURCE 24197-80001 REV B DIAGNOSTIC 7905A ABS BINARY 12962-16001 REV 1644 HP 2000E LOADER-UTILITY 24285-60001 C 2000E SYS BIN 1/2 24280-60001 C DIAGNOSTIC CONFIGURATOR FOR 2000 SERIES COMPUTERS BINARY 24296-60001 1627 2100 FLOATING POINT DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 24251-60001 REV A 16K SIO TAPE READER DRIVER BINARY 20319-60001 REV A 2100 TTY TEST BINARY 24201-60001 REV A 2100 MEMORY PARITY CHECK TEST BINARY 24198-60001 REV B HP7900/13210 DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 13041-60001 REV B DIAGNOSTIC 7905A ABS BINARY 12962-16001 REV 1635 7900 RTE III RTGEN ABS BINARY 92060-16029 (C) REV A TABLE GENERATOR ABSOLUTE 1 OF 1 09610-60018 REV A 2100 HIGH MEMORY ADDRESS TEST BINARY 24212-60001 REV A %QS001 QUERY RELOC #1 RELO BINARY 1 OF 2 92063-16011 REV 1826 EVENT SENSE RELOC 1 OF 1 09610-60024 REV A EVENT SENSE HANDLER RELOC 1 OF 1 09610-60019 REV A CROSS LINK ABS BINARY 24296-16003 REV 1627 MEMORY PROTECT ABS BINARY 12892-16001 REV 1635 HP7900/13210 DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 13041-60001 REV B HP7970E/13183A DIAGNOSTIC BINARY 13031-60001 REV C 2100A TIME BASE GENERATOR TEST BINARY 24213-60001 REV B 2100 TIME BASE GENERATOR TEST BINARY 24213-60001 REV B 2100 SHIFT-ROTATE INSTRUCTION TEST BINARY 24210-60001 REV A 2100 GENERAL PURPOSE REGISTER TEST BINARY 24196-60001 REV A DIAGNOSTIC CONFIGURATOR FOR 2000 SERIES COMPUTERS ABS BINARY 24296-60001 REV 1534 12920-16001 ASY. MUX. DATA BINARY DIAG REV 1805 2100 LOW MEMORY PATTERN TEST BINARY 24193-60001 REV A DIAGNOSTIC CONFIGURATOR FOR 2000 SERIES COMPUTERS ABS BINARY 24296-60001 REV 1534 MULTIPLE CPU & MEMORY DIAGNOSTICS #1 ABS BINARY 24396-12001 REV 1628 MULTIPLE CPU & MEMORY DIAGNOSTICS #2 ABS BINARY 24396-12002 REV 1635 MULTIPLE CPU & MEMORY DIAGNOSTICS #3 ABS BINARY 24396-12003 REV 1635 2100 MEMORY REF. INSTRUCTION TEST BINARY 24209-60001 REV A 2100 LOW MEMORY ADDRESS TEST BINARY 24211-60001 REV A 2100 HIGH MEMORY PATTERN TEST BINARY 24194-60001 REV A HP2000 ACCESS CROSS LOADER & MAG TAPE BOOT HP2000 ACCESS CROSS LOADER & MAG TAPE BOOT HP2000 ACCESS CROSS LOADER & MAG TAPE BOOT LOADER/LOADER PROGRAM 24353-16001 REV 1615 92060-16084 REV 1805 (UNLABLED TAPE WITH 92060-16084 REV 1805 TAPE) TSB E LOADER/UTILITY REV 1534 TSB E SYSTEM 1 OF 2 REV 1534 TSB E SYSTEM 2 OF 2 REV 1534 DATA BASE QUERY PROGRAM RELO BINARY 01 05 24376-16005 REV 1419 DATA BASE QUERY PROGRAM RELO BINARY 02 05 24376-16006 REV 1419 DATA BASE QUERY PROGRAM RELO BINARY 03 05 24376-16007 REV 1419 DATA BASE QUERY PROGRAM RELO BINARY 04 05 24376-16008 REV 1419 DATA BASE QUERY PROGRAM RELO BINARY 05 05 24376-16009 REV 1419 DATA BASE DEFINITION PROGRAM RELO BINARY 01 02 24376-16001 REV 1419 DATA BASE DEFINITION PROGRAM RELO BINARY 02 02 24376-16002 REV 1419 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY HP RJE SOURCE 14 24380-18014 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY HP RJE SOURCE 15 24380-18015 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY HP RJE SOURCE 15 24380-18015 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY HP RJE SOURCE 17 24380-18017 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY HP RJE SOURCE 18 24380-18018 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY TB6 DRIVER SOURCE 19 24380-18019 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY AS2BI SOURCE 22 24380-18022 REV 1402 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY REMOT SOURCE 27 24380-18027 REV 1402 2100 SEND(ONLY) INTERFACE (12622) TEST BINARY 24219-60001 REV A HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (3/7) SOURCE 30 24380-18030 REV 1409 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (6/7) SOURCE 33 24380-18033 REV 1409 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (1/7) SOURCE 28 24380-18028 REV 1409 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (4/7) SOURCE 31 24380-18031 REV 1409 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (5/7) SOURCE 32 24380-18032 REV 1409 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (2/7) SOURCE 29 24380-18029 REV 1409 HP REMOTE JOB ENTRY DRIVERS (1/7) SOURCE 34 24380-18034 REV 1409 2100 HIGH MEMORY ADDRESS TEST BINARY 24212-60001 REV A From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Feb 14 13:12:01 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:12:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: hp tape inventory In-Reply-To: <001001c7506b$29112260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001001c7506b$29112260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200702141915.OAA00949@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Ok, here's the list of all my paper tapes..... > [224-item list deleted] Do you have copies of the data from those tapes somewhere safe? It'd really suck for the data to be lost in a fire or something. (Yes, it'd suck for the tapes to burn. But it'd *really* suck for the tapes to burn *and* the data on them to be lost.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 14 13:34:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:34:35 -0700 Subject: HP minicarts found In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:38:42 -0800. <1e1fc3e90702141038g69d8f79ne2f9de7dc2166f89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90702141038g69d8f79ne2f9de7dc2166f89 at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" writes: > Even if someone was desperate for any of those tapes, what are the > chances they would still be readable at this point and there wouldn't > be spots where the oxide has flaked off? It would probably be best to go through a bake cycle, that's for sure. I know Al and a few other people have setups for digitizing the analog outputs of the read heads for 7-track and 9-track magtapes, but has anyone concocted a similar beast for the DC100 or QIC tapes? Is it even possible? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Feb 14 14:02:51 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:02:51 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? Message-ID: Al wrote: > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". There's a couple of respected folks here using handles but they've been doing so for at least a decade. The concept of "screen names" has some "classic" elements esp. w.r.t BBS's (some legit uses) and phreaking (completely non-legit but somewhat respectable in a techie sense.) I grew up not with BBS's but with E-mail lists and Usenet and had used my real name there enough that the only time I use a screen name is when I want to hide who I am, something only rarely done. Before that, it was ham radio, where using a real call sign instead of a "handle" was a way of differentiating the hobby from CB and trying to get some respect. Tim. From jrr at flippers.com Wed Feb 14 01:30:25 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:30:25 -0800 Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 1:40 PM -0800 2/13/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 13 Feb 2007 at 3:52, der Mouse wrote: > >> Turns out acetone dissolves the plastic, and I was able to solvent-weld >> the pieces back together with acetone. I let it dry over the weekend >> and now it is all good. > >Great that it worked for you, but be advised that acetone will also >(in my experience) turn some plastics into grainy mush, so it's not >a universal solution for plastics. > >Cheers >Chuck Yes, methylene chloride is the proper plastic solvent for styrene types. Plexiglass, Lexan, and many plastics will soften with this, and bond almost instantly. Hold for a few seconds to set, then let sit overnight to reach maximum hardness. Doesn't dissolve the plastic other than at the contact point. This is the stuff they use in plastic shops...along with some other solvents. John :-#)# From vax at purdue.edu Wed Feb 14 10:48:00 2007 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:48:00 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> References: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> Message-ID: <200702141148.01082.vax@purdue.edu> On Wednesday 14 February 2007 02:37, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Pat, > > Do you have any other VT340's or parts? Would your friend be > interested in trading his? Sorry, no. After realizing how much the seem to be worth for some reason (hasn't someone written an emulator yet?), I'll be sure to get it back when doesn't want it anymore.. Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:19 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Humpty Dumpty > > On Thursday 08 February 2007 09:06, Richard wrote: > > Most terminals do not have graphics capability, just character > > capability. Color graphics terminals are even scarcer. > > Like the 3278-S3G I got off ebay recently, the VT340, which I traded > to a friend for a 68040 VME CPU board, or any of the NCD or HDS > Xterminals I've got laying around. :) Oh, and I've got a couple IBM > Xterminals, too.. > > And I almost had a pair of E&S PS390s. Unfortunately, I discovered > that all the boards were removed by the time I got them, when I went > to pick them up. :( > > Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 14 14:12:42 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:12:42 -0800 Subject: HP minicarts found Message-ID: <45D36D3A.8000407@bitsavers.org> > I know Al and a few other people have setups for digitizing the analog > outputs of the read heads for 7-track and 9-track magtapes, but has > anyone concocted a similar beast for the DC100 or QIC tapes? > > Is it even possible? Yes, it is probably what I'm going to have to use to recover the Tektronix 4051 tapes that I got from Jim Willing. It shouldn't be to difficult to do something similar with heads that don't move (HP, Apple Tape Backup, etc). Fiddling with the firmware for QIC drives with serpentine recording is more difficult From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 14 14:23:52 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:23:52 -0700 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D36FD8.8050904@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > There's a couple of respected folks here using > handles but they've been doing so for at least a decade. While not so respected, I got stuck with Woodelf since in needed a login ID many moons back under Linux or now under Windows/XP. Mozilla defaults to your login name. I suspect a few are in the same boat as me or forced to use 'company' computers with stange taglines. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 14 14:30:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:30:34 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <200702141352.l1EDquf16817@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200702141352.l1EDquf16817@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2007, at 8:52 AM, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > I have a Calcomp 563 drum plotter on my 8/E. > http://www.pdp8.net/563/563.shtml (need to make a better page now > that I have it running. Showed it at the last VCF east) That's a damn fine device. By the way, I'm fairly certain that the Calcomp model number for the IBM 1627 plotter referenced on your page is 565. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 14 14:34:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:34:17 -0500 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702141149.00052.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> <200702141149.00052.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <28E1E96A-8D7F-46D8-82E9-0144B3421503@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Do you have any other VT340's or parts? Would your friend be >> interested in trading his? > > Sorry, no. After realizing how much the seem to be worth for some > reason (hasn't someone written an emulator yet?), I'll be sure to get > it back when doesn't want it anymore.. ReGIS emulators have been around for ages. I ran SmarTerm 240 on a PeeCee back in 1989 or so. I suspect the issue is a matter of some people don't necessarily *want* a PC on their desk emulating everything...they want the real thing for some particular reason. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Feb 14 14:41:47 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:41:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Al wrote: > >> "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else on this list >> uses their real name, not a "handle". > > There's a couple of respected folks here using handles but they've been > doing so for at least a decade. > > The concept of "screen names" has some "classic" elements esp. w.r.t > BBS's (some legit uses) and phreaking (completely non-legit but somewhat > respectable in a techie sense.) > > I grew up not with BBS's but with E-mail lists and Usenet and had used > my real name there enough that the only time I use a screen name is when > I want to hide who I am, something only rarely done. I've been using my handle since the early 90s and have been active on the list since somewhere around 1999-2000. List members who've met me in person know my 'real' name as do many whom I've had a lot of email contact with over the years. I really don't see it as a problem myself, but I grew up using BBS's and Usenet which Tim mentions above. *shrug* As for phreaking...no comment...'course anyone who knows me well knows I'm a comms guy...so :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Feb 14 14:45:40 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:45:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: References: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Robertson wrote: > At 1:40 PM -0800 2/13/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Great that it worked for you, but be advised that acetone will also (in >> my experience) turn some plastics into grainy mush, so it's not a >> universal solution for plastics. > > Yes, methylene chloride is the proper plastic solvent for styrene types. > Plexiglass, Lexan, and many plastics will soften with this, and bond > almost instantly. Hold for a few seconds to set, then let sit overnight > to reach maximum hardness. Doesn't dissolve the plastic other than at > the contact point. This is the stuff they use in plastic shops...along > with some other solvents. Has anyone found a solvent that will solidly weld the PC+ABS blends yet? I run into various blends of PC+ABS all the time and have yet to find anything that will work well. Methylene Chloride will melt the ABS part of the blend, but it makes a brittle joint. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Feb 14 14:50:34 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:50:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <200702141149.00052.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702081119.26990.pat@computer-refuge.org> <003101c7500b$067ebce0$4200a8c0@main> <200702141149.00052.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 14 February 2007 02:37, Paul Anderson wrote: >> Hi Pat, >> >> Do you have any other VT340's or parts? Would your friend be >> interested in trading his? > > Sorry, no. After realizing how much the seem to be worth for some > reason (hasn't someone written an emulator yet?), I'll be sure to get > it back when doesn't want it anymore.. Are schematics and/or service docs available anywhere for the VT340? Mine is still sitting under the bench waiting for me to repair it. I know it needs a flyback as it let out magic smoke, but I'm concerned that the flyback may have shorted and damaged other components too. It was only powered for seconds after it started smoking though, so I guess its possible that it may just need a flyback. I rather miss using it too, as it was the only real VT I had that would support color. -Toth From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 15:02:46 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:02:46 -0500 Subject: Instrument Displays MDPM-3 nixie DPM (was Re: Service Manual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem?) Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/11/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Had a good day at the Mansfield Hamfest today. I now have [a]... > > > nixie-tube panel DVM... > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > If that is a Weston 1294-series DVM (4.5 digits, TTL, fits standard 4"*1.75" > > industrial instr. panel), I can supply the schematic. > > It _is_ 4.5 digits... and does fit a standard panel opening, but > it's an MDPM-3 by Instrument Displays, Inc., of Haverhill, Massachusetts. OK... I've taken it apart to have a look... the IC dates are late 1968 - there are a few DIPs and a number of 8-pin epoxy-covered button-shaped ICs all over the innards. The DPM came with a 36-pin AMP connector with 4 wires loaded, two for power and two for input voltage. The power wires go right into a transformer at the back of the unit, leading me to suspect that it takes 110VAC, but perhaps it takes 24VAC. I have not yet powered it up - does anyone have any idea what it would take to fire it up? The nixie tubes, for those who track such things, are 3 Burroughs B-5750 7/8"(?) nixies, with a block next to them for "1", "+", and "-" (3 individual neons). The legend on the front proclaims it to be a "mini-diget dpm". I've never fiddled with a pre-LED DPM, so if anyone knows what voltage it's expecting, I can fire it up to see if it works or is merely a source of nixies. Thanks, -ethan From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Feb 14 15:21:58 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:21:58 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C3F7@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> M H Stein wrote: Do have a few manuals on other plotters. Recently found one on a Houston Instruments plotter. It'll go to Al the next time we get together. Billy ==Mike's Reply: Which Houston plotter? 595/695 ? mike -------------------- Don't know. It is up in Pleasanton in a big pile of stuff for Al, next time I see him. I'm going up on the 24th, so I'll try to have a look then. I just buy stuff like this manual when I come across them at flea markets, etc. Give them to Al for his archives. Billy From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Feb 14 15:36:22 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:36:22 -0000 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c75080$2d4a52b0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Tothwolf wrote: > > Are schematics and/or service docs available anywhere for the VT340? http://bitsavers.vt100.net/dec/terminal/MP02412_VT340_EngrDrws_Feb87.pdf There's more on Manx (http://vt100.net/manx) Antonio From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 14 16:02:56 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:02:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <429527.15674.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dave McGuire wrote: On Feb 14, 2007, at 8:52 AM, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > I have a Calcomp 563 drum plotter on my 8/E. > http://www.pdp8.net/563/563.shtml (need to make a better page now > that I have it running. Showed it at the last VCF east) That's a damn fine device. By the way, I'm fairly certain that the Calcomp model number for the IBM 1627 plotter referenced on your page is 565. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL IBM sold both the 565 and 563 plotters as the 1627 models I & II. I've been looking for one (IBM branded) for over 5 years now without any luck. Bob From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 14 16:14:04 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:14:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Thank you, list! Message-ID: <200702142214.l1EME4Ze051200@keith.ezwind.net> --- der Mouse wrote: > > [...] be advised that acetone will also (in my > experience) turn some > > plastics into grainy mush, [...] > > Well, I did first try applying acetone to a > noncritical area of the > same part, to see what it would do. > Yes, acetone also disolves polystyrene. Some uni/college student visited the lab where I work (I'm a technician, not a chemist, and my chemical knowledge is limited other than what I have learnt at work over the last 8 years) a few years ago and decided to clean the runners on the plastic slidey doors (do they have a proper name?) on the side of one of the balances. Naturally, as someone else mentioned, the acetone turned the plastic into mush and the door become tough to open, often sticking, instead of being smooth and easy. Generally, we use acetone to clean marker pen off of glass equipment (eg. volumetric flasks) and for cleaning oil/grease out of the metal cups (we test for fat/oil/grease content in the waste water from factories that send there waste into our* sewers) Getting it back on topic... is there an easy was to determine which computers/peripherals can be cleaned safely with acetone, or similar substances? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk * I work for a well known UK water company, mainly b ased in East Anglia. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 14 16:27:26 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:27:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for the switches and lights. After receiving them, I find they are too neat to tear apart. They were said to come from a telephone company central office. Does anyone recognize these? I can't find any names on them. http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_panel1.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_pnl1.JPG Thanks, Bob From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 14 16:28:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:28:12 -0800 Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: References: <200702130856.DAA09830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <45D1BFC7.29104.3311FF5A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45D31C7C.2471.1758097@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2007 at 23:30, John Robertson wrote: > Yes, methylene chloride is the proper plastic solvent for styrene > types. Plexiglass, Lexan, and many plastics will soften with this, > and bond almost instantly. Hold for a few seconds to set, then let > sit overnight to reach maximum hardness. Doesn't dissolve the plastic > other than at the contact point. This is the stuff they use in > plastic shops...along with some other solvents. Has anyone tried Plastic Weld? Here's a web page: http://www.plastruct.com/Pages/GlueContents.html Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 14 16:33:24 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:33:24 +0000 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14/2/07 20:41, "Tothwolf" wrote: > I've been using my handle since the early 90s and have been active on the > list since somewhere around 1999-2000. List members who've met me in > person know my 'real' name as do many whom I've had a lot of email contact > with over the years. I really don't see it as a problem myself, but I grew > up using BBS's and Usenet which Tim mentions above. *shrug* As for > phreaking...no comment...'course anyone who knows me well knows I'm a > comms guy...so :) I've been 'witchy' or 'witchfinder' since about that time too, I mean you never used your real name on USENET did you :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 14 16:39:36 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:39:36 -0600 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45D38FA8.8030104@yahoo.co.uk> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for > the switches and lights. After receiving them, I find they are too > neat to tear apart. Wow, those are nice. Interesting that there's an airflow warning light; I don't think I've seen that on a system before. Three CPUs on the same panel, too. Weird! Do share anything here that you may find out elsewhere - looks like it came from a pretty interesting system. p.s. Your line breaking seems to be busted in your email client - I had to split everything manually on reply :( cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 14 16:54:36 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:54:36 +0000 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms In-Reply-To: <01C74FFF.F6E1DAC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C74FFF.F6E1DAC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <45D3932C.2070402@philpem.me.uk> M H Stein wrote: > If you don't find 'em elsewhere, I've got Harris ('78), Intel ('76), Signetics ('78) > and National ('77) databooks in front of me. Don't know about Intersil; was looking > in the MMI book a while back, but now I can't remember where I put it down at the > time (probably the same place as the cordless phone ;) . Don't worry about the Intersil databook - Harris bought Intersil in the mid-70s (IIRC), so an older Intersil databook would probably have the same (or very similar) info to the Harris book. I'd hazard a guess that most of the PROMs from a given manufacturer will use the same algorithm, so all I really need are scans of the pages detailing that manufacturer's algorithm and pinouts. The latter I already have in the form of a file called 'promref.txt' from the old Wiretap arcade archive :) Thanks. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 14 17:33:08 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:33:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <45D38FA8.8030104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <52432.94080.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jules Richardson wrote: Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for > the switches and lights. After receiving them, I find they are too > neat to tear apart. Wow, those are nice. Interesting that there's an airflow warning light; I don't think I've seen that on a system before. Three CPUs on the same panel, too. Weird! Do share anything here that you may find out elsewhere - looks like it came from a pretty interesting system. p.s. Your line breaking seems to be busted in your email client - I had to split everything manually on reply :( cheers Jules Sorry about the broken lines, I'm using a web email service so I can waste time at work emailing! Here's some more photos. The back sides of the panels and the connector plugs that must have gone to the computer. I like the indicators that say "survivor"! Bob http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_panel2.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_pnl2.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_pnl3.JPG From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 14 17:49:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:49:14 -0800 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Feb 2007 at 14:27, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for the > switches and lights. After receiving them, I find they are too neat to > tear apart. They were said to come from a telephone company central > office. Does anyone recognize these? I can't find any names on them. I'm sure that someone will recognize this, but I don't think it's a from a telco CO. This looks more like a triple-redundant setup for some sort of mission-critical application (nuclear reactor control?). The indicator lamps labeled "SURVIVOR" and "BACKUP" as well as "EXCHANGE FILL" would seem to bear this out as well as the alarm resets. Incandescent lamps instead of LEDs would probably put this in the 1960s-early 70s, maybe? Cheers, Chuck From hexstar at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 18:19:36 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:19:36 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702141619r7b5a927ahe755ea322ec39aba@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > use your real name here? > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". > > > > > Your singling out of a member is not the least bit appreciated...if you intended to send me a message by doing so you failed miserably...next time try communicating with me properly and politely offlist and perhaps we can get somewhere ;-) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 14 18:20:32 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:20:32 -0800 Subject: Instrument Displays MDPM-3 nixie DPM (was Re: ServiceManual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem?) References: Message-ID: <45D3A74F.B28CC86C@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > It _is_ 4.5 digits... and does fit a standard panel opening, but > > it's an MDPM-3 by Instrument Displays, Inc., of Haverhill, Massachusetts. > > OK... I've taken it apart to have a look... the IC dates are late 1968 > - there are a few DIPs and a number of 8-pin epoxy-covered > button-shaped ICs all over the innards. The DPM came with a 36-pin The epoxy-button (with ceramic base) ICs sound like Fairchild's TO-5 alternative to the metal can TO-5/TO-99 package. They produced (at least) some SSI RTL and Counting MicroLogic ICs in that package. Considering the date and application, (many of) the ICs are likely Fairchild Counter MicroLogic. This was a small family specifically directed at decade counter/display strings. The technology can be described as MSI RTL, although the 960 was sometimes used with TTL. 9958 or 958: decade counter TO-5 or 14-pin DIP 9959 or 959: 4-bit latch 16-pin DIP 9960 or 960: nixie decoder/driver 16-pin DIP 9989 or 989: mod-16 counter TO-5 or 14-pin DIP Supply voltage is 3.3V to 5.5V. Are there only date codes and no part numbers on the ICs? > AMP connector with 4 wires loaded, two for power and two for input > voltage. The power wires go right into a transformer at the back of > the unit, leading me to suspect that it takes 110VAC, but perhaps it > takes 24VAC. I have not yet powered it up - does anyone have any idea > what it would take to fire it up? ..could fire it up at 24VAC and see if the logic supply level makes any sense, then go for 110 if not, although my guess would be 110. FWIW, the Weston Nixie DPM I have is 110VAC. > The nixie tubes, for those who track such things, are 3 Burroughs > B-5750 7/8"(?) nixies, with a block next to them for "1", "+", and "-" > (3 individual neons). The legend on the front proclaims it to be a > "mini-diget dpm". > > I've never fiddled with a pre-LED DPM, so if anyone knows what voltage > it's expecting, I can fire it up to see if it works or is merely a > source of nixies. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 14 18:12:24 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:12:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <45D2B278.7803BE6A@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 13, 7 10:55:58 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The thing I am looking for (in the UK for obvious reasons) is an HP9862 > > plotter with 9800-series interface module. Little chance of getting one, > > though. > > I have an HP9872A with both the 98135A interface module for HP-IB and the I'm probably mis-remembering the numbers, but isn't the 98135 the HPIB interface for the 9815 calculator? I thought hte plotter had HPIB as standard. > 98130A interface module for the 9815 calculator. I received it some time ago > as a package with a 9815, but have yet to take the time to get up to speed Nice! The old HP desktop calculators are not that easy to find (at least over here), and the interfaces/peripherals are consdierably rarer (makes sense, people bought/used the calculator on its own, but nobody bought the peipherals withput the calculator to drive them from). I don;t know how much you know about the 9815 internals, but anyway. It's a 6800-based design -- apart from the firmware ROMs, all the chips are stnadard :-). Therer are 2 itnerface slots on the back (well, that is technically an option, but as you have the interfaces, I assume your calculator has it fitted). Each slot can be logically divided into 2 sections. One is an input-only version of the 6800 bus (essentially common to both slots), the other is a 12 bit output port + control lines (separate for each slot). The interface modules cotnain firmware ROMs contining the driver software (in contrast to the 98x0 and other 98x5 machines, where the ROMs were seprate modules). Some of those ROMs have 'interesting' instructions, the BCD interface, for example, has an instruction to access the numaric storage registers at the byte level (letting you create non-normalised numbers, etc). I asusme you've found http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . There's a lot of info on the 9815 and interfaces there. > with all the plotter stuff to even exercise it. > > What I find interesting is the plotter has a 16-bit 5MHz single-chip > microprocessor (identified in the service manual only as "HP Microprocessor > (P.N. 1818-2500)") - pretty spiffy for 1977. One of HP's internal developments I've come across that processor in the HP7245 thermal printer/plotter. For those who've not come across that machine, it's a plotter, but not a pen plotter. Basically, there's a thermal printhead with 13 elements. 12 of them aranged i na diagonal pattern, are used for printing dot matrix text -- the diagonal arangement is so that it can print acrros the paper or up and down the papepr equally easily. The 13th dot is used to draw lines like a pen plotter -- there's a complex motor control board to drive the 2 motors (hard movement and paper movement) jsut like in a pen plotter. It responds to 2 HPIB addresses. One of them is for printing, you send it ASCII characters and control condes. The other is for plotting, you send it HPGL commands. Yes, I have one, I undersand the electronics (even the 2-stage switching PSU), apart from the details of the processor.... I believe the same processor is used in the 9871 Daisywheel printer [1]. This is often claimed to be a Selectric mechanism, AFAIK it isn't (it's a daisywheel, pure and simple [2], but it does take Selectric ribbons, probably because they were easy to get at the time. [1] There's one listed on E-bay at the moment. Alas I can't afford the shipping to England.. ]2] Well, maybe 'simple' isn't the word for a machine with a toothed belt that follows a contorted path round sprockets on the chassis and carriage, and which is drivein by 2 motors such that one of them moves the carraigne, the other (also fixed oteh chassis and not the carriage) turns the daisywheel. > that I don't hear or see much info about. The service manual doesn't provide > any info about the microproc internal architecture. I've not found out anyhting about it, nor any info on the eariler 80bit nanocontroler (1820-1691 or something similar) used in the 98x5 interface modules, the 9885 8" floppy drive, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 14 18:26:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:26:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: <45D31C7C.2471.1758097@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 14, 7 02:28:12 pm Message-ID: > > Has anyone tried Plastic Weld? Here's a web page: I don't know if it;s the same stuff, but _good_ model shops in the UK sell something branded 'Plastic Weld'. It seems to be mostly methelyne chloride and is what I sue for repairing broken computer cases, etc. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 14 18:30:45 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:30:45 -0800 Subject: Help to identify a computer? References: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45D3A9B5.C6DFB5F@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for the switches and lights. > After receiving them, I find they are too neat to tear apart. Don't you just hate it when that happens? :) Now you have more stuff hanging around and you still have to find the parts you want. From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Feb 14 18:34:21 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:34:21 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> Hey all, I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug-ins for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and 7B53A. Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a curve tracer. Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? -Tom (my real name) Peters. [Philosophy] "I shall cheerfully bear the reproach of having descended below the dignity of history." --Lord Macaulay. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 14 18:39:16 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:39:16 -0800 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <52432.94080.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <52432.94080.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45D3ABB4.6070401@msm.umr.edu> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_pnl3.JPG > You did manage to pick up a date code in this photo. The inspection stamp on P2 (yellow) shows inspector 6 or maybe 16 inspected it, and someone dated 11-68 on the tab. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 18:51:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:51:34 -0500 Subject: Instrument Displays MDPM-3 nixie DPM (was Re: ServiceManual/Schematics for an IBM 7861-015 modem?) In-Reply-To: <45D3A74F.B28CC86C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45D3A74F.B28CC86C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2/14/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > It _is_ 4.5 digits... and does fit a standard panel opening, but > > > it's an MDPM-3 by Instrument Displays, Inc., of Haverhill, Massachusetts. > > > > OK... I've taken it apart to have a look... the IC dates are late 1968 > > - there are a few DIPs and a number of 8-pin epoxy-covered > > button-shaped ICs all over the innards. The DPM came with a 36-pin > > The epoxy-button (with ceramic base) ICs sound like Fairchild's TO-5 > alternative to the metal can TO-5/TO-99 package. They produced (at least) some > SSI RTL and Counting MicroLogic ICs in that package. Sure... counters make sense for a DVM/DPM made of discrete ICs (I've been reading Don Lancaster's "TTL Cookbook" recently). > Considering the date and application, (many of) the ICs are likely Fairchild > Counter MicroLogic. This was a small family specifically directed at decade > counter/display strings. The technology can be described as MSI RTL, although > the 960 was sometimes used with TTL. Sounds reasonable. > 9958 or 958: decade counter TO-5 or 14-pin DIP > 9959 or 959: 4-bit latch 16-pin DIP > 9960 or 960: nixie decoder/driver 16-pin DIP > 9989 or 989: mod-16 counter TO-5 or 14-pin DIP Thanks for the numbers. > Are there only date codes and no part numbers on the ICs? There are part numbers on the ICs, but I can only read the DIPs; the TO-5s are too hard to read as the numbers wrap around the packages and I don't think I can really dismantle this further without desoldering. > > AMP connector with 4 wires loaded, two for power and two for input > > voltage.... > ..could fire it up at 24VAC and see if the logic supply level makes > any sense, then go for 110 if not, although my guess would be 110. Hmm... as long as damage at 24VAC isn't likely. > FWIW, the Weston Nixie DPM I have is 110VAC. Unsurprising, since nixies want 170V to 300V (according to the B-5750 datasheets). I just didn't want to fry mine out of ignorance. -ethan From jwest at ezwind.net Wed Feb 14 18:49:18 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:49:18 -0600 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? Message-ID: <003601c7509b$a2ca7a40$6600a8c0@BILLING> A while back a guy (ebay ID was something similar to 'jeffking') was selling cartons of paper tape for $4.00 each. Someone here said that the tape they got was oiled, don't remember who. I bought a box because all the tape I have is unoiled, but what I got was definitely not oiled (nor had it been in the past). It's no big deal at all, I'm happy to have more tape (especially at $4 a carton!!). But I was curious if others got in on this deal and if what they got was oiled or not? I wanted oiled for an ASR33... Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 14 18:56:39 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702141619r7b5a927ahe755ea322ec39aba@mail.gmail.com> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <5dc6fd9e0702141619r7b5a927ahe755ea322ec39aba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070214163056.M96123@shell.lmi.net> As long as they don't withhold their names from Jay, it shouldn't really matter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 14 19:17:37 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:17:37 -0800 Subject: pen plotters? References: Message-ID: <45D3B4B0.D2B56D3C@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > The thing I am looking for (in the UK for obvious reasons) is an HP9862 > > > plotter with 9800-series interface module. Little chance of getting one, > > > though. > > > > I have an HP9872A with both the 98135A interface module for HP-IB and the > > I'm probably mis-remembering the numbers, but isn't the 98135 the HPIB > interface for the 9815 calculator? I thought hte plotter had HPIB as > standard. > You are correct, I noticed after sending the message that my phrasing was ambiguous or misleading. The plotter has two ports, one for HP-IB and one specifically for a connection from the 98130A interface in the 9815. For some reason the package I received came with both the 98130 interface (9815->9872) as well as the 98135 interface (9815->HP-IB). Given the HPI-IB interface already on the plotter, this would seem to be redundant, as I don't think this 9815 was used with any other HP-IB devices. Going by the doc though, it appears that the firmware in the 98130 may make for much easier programming of the 9815 to control the plotter, compared to going through the generic HP-IB interface. > I don;t know how much you know about the 9815 internals, but anyway. It's > a 6800-based design -- apart from the firmware ROMs, all the chips are I don't have the schematic and haven't RE'd it, but am aware of the 6800. Having written some assembler code for the 6800 and being somewhat aware of object sizes for such, I think when I looked inside the 9815 I was somewhat surprised that they managed to fit all the firmware code into (IIRC) 2KB of ROM, considering all the math functions, programming capability, tape-drive control, printer control, etc. that would be in there. Either that or I missed seeing a ROM chip somewhere. > > What I find interesting is the plotter has a 16-bit 5MHz single-chip > > microprocessor (identified in the service manual only as "HP Microprocessor > > (P.N. 1818-2500)") - pretty spiffy for 1977. One of HP's internal developments > > I've come across that processor in the HP7245 thermal printer/plotter. > > that I don't hear or see much info about. The service manual doesn't provide > > any info about the microproc internal architecture. > > I've not found out anyhting about it, Another list member provided some references http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_2100 http://www.hp9825.com/html/hybrid_microprocessor.html which provide some more explanation of the lineage and some details of the chnages from the 2100 arch. Even Adam Osborne's 1976 book "An Introduction to Microcomputers - Vol II - Some Real Products" - which gives a pretty good overview of the microprocs available at the time - makes no mention of it. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 14 19:53:16 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:53:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > Has anyone tried Plastic Weld? Here's a web page: > > I don't know if it;s the same stuff, but _good_ model shops in the UK > sell something branded 'Plastic Weld'. It seems to be mostly methelyne > chloride and is what I sue for repairing broken computer cases, etc. I would like to press charges against a bottle of methyl ethyl ketone. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Feb 14 20:14:41 2007 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:14:41 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D3C211.7050306@dragonsweb.org> Al Kossow wrote: > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > use your real name here? > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". > > > > I dunno, Al, what with being an "old hippie" myself and all, (they tell me I don't look sufficiently like a "computer geek"-what rubbish.) I have a positive disinclination for "requirements". Are you objecting to the principle of pseudonymity here, or just to lame or maybe fraudulent handles? Would digsigs help? jb"no relation to that sterling Rat fellow"digriz From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 14 20:17:20 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:17:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Feb 14, 7 05:53:16 pm" Message-ID: <200702150217.l1F2HKdu028218@floodgap.com> > > > Has anyone tried Plastic Weld? Here's a web page: > > > > I don't know if it;s the same stuff, but _good_ model shops in the UK > > sell something branded 'Plastic Weld'. It seems to be mostly methelyne > > chloride and is what I sue for repairing broken computer cases, etc. > > I would like to press charges against a bottle of methyl ethyl ketone. So would I. It's lousy in mixed drinks. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire --------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 14 21:21:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:21:14 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D3D1AA.60605@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > use your real name here? > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. And "der Mouse" doesn't? People were using handles three to four decades ago. Certainly you can get over it by now... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Feb 14 21:20:07 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:20:07 -0500 Subject: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms Message-ID: <01C75087.25F26C80@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:54:36 +0000 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Re: WTD: Fuse PROM programming algorithms M H Stein wrote: > If you don't find 'em elsewhere, I've got Harris ('78), Intel ('76), Signetics ('78) > and National ('77) databooks in front of me. Don't know about Intersil; was looking > in the MMI book a while back, but now I can't remember where I put it down at the > time (probably the same place as the cordless phone ;) . Don't worry about the Intersil databook - Harris bought Intersil in the mid-70s (IIRC), so an older Intersil databook would probably have the same (or very similar) info to the Harris book. I'd hazard a guess that most of the PROMs from a given manufacturer will use the same algorithm, so all I really need are scans of the pages detailing that manufacturer's algorithm and pinouts. The latter I already have in the form of a file called 'promref.txt' from the old Wiretap arcade archive :) Thanks. -- -----------Reply: Scans of the Harris, Signetics, NS & Intel data are on the way to you. I think someone else on the list had the MMI data; if I find mine I'll let you know. mike From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 14 21:57:17 2007 From: brain at jbrain.com (Brain (as in Pinky and the...)) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:57:17 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3D1AA.60605@oldskool.org> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <45D3D1AA.60605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45D3DA1D.9010005@jbrain.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to >> use your real name here? >> >> "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. > > And "der Mouse" doesn't? > > People were using handles three to four decades ago. Certainly you > can get over it by now... Gee, I hope we don't discontinue handles, I'd be a big pickle. Brain From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 14 23:01:16 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:01:16 -0800 Subject: HP 1000 E Series on Govliq. In-Reply-To: <45D3ABB4.6070401@msm.umr.edu> References: <52432.94080.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D3ABB4.6070401@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45D3E91C.1040709@sbcglobal.net> Look at photo number 7. Looks like an HP 1000 E Series machine. Too much other stuff in the lot though. Bob http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1124213&convertTo=USD From hexstar at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 23:35:09 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:35:09 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D3DA1D.9010005@jbrain.com> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <45D3D1AA.60605@oldskool.org> <45D3DA1D.9010005@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702142135l76e15bd7jd2c4cb614b4c748b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/07, Brain (as in Pinky and the...) wrote: > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Al Kossow wrote: > >> I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > >> use your real name here? > >> > >> "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. > > > > And "der Mouse" doesn't? > > > > People were using handles three to four decades ago. Certainly you > > can get over it by now... > Gee, I hope we don't discontinue handles, I'd be a big pickle. > > Brain > well I'll start, here's my fingerprint :D (not really :P) From bob47lasher at charter.net Wed Feb 14 23:41:38 2007 From: bob47lasher at charter.net (Bob Lasher) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:41:38 -0800 Subject: Tektronix terminals Message-ID: <000e01c750c3$f6e499d0$9210d742@bobs> I worked for Tek during the mid 70's on the 4010 series. Field service in the Los Angeles area. Yes, the flood guns that cause the tube to store the image AND erase it would go weak after a time. The length of time seemed to vary for many reasons. I found that customers that left the terminal on all the time (Tek used them as terminals for their semiconductor test systems S-3200 series) they seemed to last a long time, BUT if you turned it off for any length of time, it would take a really long time to warm up and erase properly. The bigger terminals (4014 and 4015) had some adjustments for collimation (the shape of the flood beam during the erase pulse), but not the 4010 series. If it finally starts storing and erasing after a period of time, I would suggest that you live with it. The tubes are no longer available (probably obsolete for over 10 years). If you can find them, the tube for a 4012/4013 or the Tek611 (storage monitor, also used in the 4002A (somebodies favorite) would work in your 4010. If you have the hard copy unit (the dry silver paper printer), you may have trouble getting clear copies. There were times when you replace the tube with a new one and you couldn't get a good copy. You ended up replacing it a second time. It didn't take too much time to replace one after you had done it a few times. The computer interface. In the standard terminal, there was one slot for a data comm interface. There were two RS232 interfaces available. The standard full duplex and a deluxe i/f. The deluxe version had switch selectable baud rates and could do half duplex comm. Remember this was back in the days of 300-1200 baud modems, both acoustic couplers and AJ and Racal-Vadic modems. That was back in the days when you paid a 'buck a baud' for a modem, especially above 2400 baud. Tek also had a series of TTY Port interfaces. These were meant to be directly connected to a mini. They had them for DEC PDP-11's ,DG Novas, and others. The DEC used either a M7800 or M7856. The M7800 was easy to install, it had rotary switches and you simply selected the external clock position and made sure you had the right crystal to get 38k baud. The M7856 had to be modified to replace the 110 baud position (IIRC) with a clock from the terminal interface. The neat thing about these interfaces was that when you got to the bottom of the screen, they would stop the clock to the computer interface and the screen would 'freeze'. For those unfamiliar with the 4010 series of terminals, after you clear the screen and start to display information, when you got to the bottom of the screen, the cursor would position itself to the top middle of the screen and over-write down the middle. Then it would go back to the left margin and continue. So, you had to stop the computer from sending data to the terminal to keep from scrambling your display. The DG Nova interface/computer would really scream, usually in the 300k baud range. It did a great job with the big (4014/4015) displays. Cal Tech had several of them in their seismographic lab. They threw up a screen full of graphics almost instantly. Very impressive. The PDP interface was good for about 38k to 56k, depending on the processor. There were some modified products availbe to display a non-storing line of characters. IIRC, it wasn't available for the 4010, but was for the 4012 series. The 4012 had similar characteristic to the 4010 except it had a better character generator, lower case display and just generally a nicer terminal. I have mentioned the 4013 and 4015. These were versions of the 4012/4014 that had special character generators to be a terminal for the APL programming language. This language used graphical characters for its operators. An interesting language. I took a class in it at night. The IBM APL terminal was a 2741 (IIRC). For some oddball reason, it used 134.5 baud as a comm rate. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 14 23:45:08 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:45:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702142135l76e15bd7jd2c4cb614b4c748b@mail.gmail.com> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <45D3D1AA.60605@oldskool.org> <45D3DA1D.9010005@jbrain.com> <5dc6fd9e0702142135l76e15bd7jd2c4cb614b4c748b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Hex Star wrote: > well I'll start, here's my fingerprint :D (not really :P) I cut my finger while fiddling around in the wiring closet. Does that count as leaving DNA on my posts? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 14 23:58:31 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:58:31 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: David Griffith > >On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Hex Star wrote: > > > well I'll start, here's my fingerprint :D (not really :P) > >I cut my finger while fiddling around in the wiring closet. Does that >count as leaving DNA on my posts? > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > Hi I use my real name because I'm not clever enough to think of another to use. I've been accused of not using my real name but then I think I may be the only one in the entire USA. There may be one in Australia where my last name is more common. Most any post with my name or something you find with a search engine is surely related to me as I've not found another. Dwight Elvey _________________________________________________________________ Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your Live.com page. http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701 From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 15 00:07:41 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:07:41 -0500 Subject: 6' DEC Cabinet available zip 10512 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D3F8AD.4080206@atarimuseum.com> If anyone is interested, I have a 6' Dec Storage Array cabinet available, front and rear doors open, available free to anyone who wants to come and pick it up. We're experiencing a pretty bad Ice and Snow storm right now in the area, so obviously it would not need to be picked up immediately, however if anyone would like it and can pick it up in the next 7-14 days, its yours, otherwise I'll have to disassemble it and its unfortunately going to be tossed. Curt From erik at baigar.de Thu Feb 15 00:32:02 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:32:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <200702141352.l1EDquf16817@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 djg at pdp8.net wrote: > I have a Calcomp 563 drum plotter on my 8/E. > http://www.pdp8.net/563/563.shtml (need to make a better page now > that I have it running. Showed it at the last VCF east) > to demo but didn't find much. Anybody know of some good ones? The format With my Calcomp 1038 I encountered the same problem since the plotter language PCI/906 died out and I do not have got any documentation about this. In reverse engineering I found out how to do the basic operations (gotoxy and pen up / pen down) and wrote a converter progaram. To get samples my choice was to take the hp2xx utility which is available for many platforms. With this you can convert HPGL to a simple gotoxy-style which is than easy to process. This saved a lot of work on an own interpreter and you are able to plot most of the hpgl files... By the way: Any documents about PCI906 ot it's successor PCI/907 out there? Best regards, Erik. From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 00:47:42 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:47:42 -0800 Subject: Tektronix terminals In-Reply-To: <000e01c750c3$f6e499d0$9210d742@bobs> References: <000e01c750c3$f6e499d0$9210d742@bobs> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702142247o7ec9437fl77adbe01ba4e52f1@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/07, Bob Lasher wrote: > > I worked for Tek during the mid 70's on the 4010 series. Field service in > the Los Angeles area. > > Yes, the flood guns that cause the tube to store the image AND erase it > would go weak after a time. The length of time seemed to vary for many > reasons. I found that customers that left the terminal on all the time (Tek > used them as terminals for their semiconductor test systems S-3200 series) > they seemed to last a long time, BUT if you turned it off for any length of > time, it would take a really long time to warm up and erase properly. The > bigger terminals (4014 and 4015) had some adjustments for collimation (the > shape of the flood beam during the erase pulse), but not the 4010 > series. If it finally starts storing and erasing after a period of time, I > would suggest that you live with it. The tubes are no longer available > (probably obsolete for over 10 years). If you can find them, the tube for a > 4012/4013 or the Tek611 (storage monitor, also used in the 4002A (somebodies > favorite) would work in your 4010. If you have the hard copy unit (the dry > silver paper printer), you may have trouble getting clear copies. There > were times when you replace the tube with a new one and you couldn't get a > good copy. You ended up replacing it a second time. It didn't take too > much time to replace one after you had done it a few times. > > The computer interface. > In the standard terminal, there was one slot for a data comm > interface. There were two RS232 interfaces available. The standard full > duplex and a deluxe i/f. The deluxe version had switch selectable baud > rates and could do half duplex comm. Remember this was back in the days of > 300-1200 baud modems, both acoustic couplers and AJ and Racal-Vadic > modems. That was back in the days when you paid a 'buck a baud' for a > modem, especially above 2400 baud. Tek also had a series of TTY Port > interfaces. These were meant to be directly connected to a mini. They had > them for DEC PDP-11's ,DG Novas, and others. The DEC used either a M7800 or > M7856. The M7800 was easy to install, it had rotary switches and you simply > selected the external clock position and made sure you had the right crystal > to get 38k baud. The M7856 had to be modified to replace the 110 baud > position (IIRC) with a clock from the terminal interface. The neat thing > about these interfaces was that when you got to the bottom of the screen, > they would stop the clock to the computer interface and the screen would > 'freeze'. For those unfamiliar with the 4010 series of terminals, after you > clear the screen and start to display information, when you got to the > bottom of the screen, the cursor would position itself to the top middle of > the screen and over-write down the middle. Then it would go back to the > left margin and continue. So, you had to stop the computer from sending > data to the terminal to keep from scrambling your display. The DG Nova > interface/computer would really scream, usually in the 300k baud range. It > did a great job with the big (4014/4015) displays. Cal Tech had several of > them in their seismographic lab. They threw up a screen full of graphics > almost instantly. Very impressive. The PDP interface was good for about > 38k to 56k, depending on the processor. > > There were some modified products availbe to display a non-storing line of > characters. IIRC, it wasn't available for the 4010, but was for the 4012 > series. The 4012 had similar characteristic to the 4010 except it had a > better character generator, lower case display and just generally a nicer > terminal. I have mentioned the 4013 and 4015. These were versions of the > 4012/4014 that had special character generators to be a terminal for the APL > programming language. This language used graphical characters for its > operators. An interesting language. I took a class in it at night. The > IBM APL terminal was a 2741 (IIRC). For some oddball reason, it used > 134.5 baud as a comm rate. > > Tektronix machines are still being sold here (found thanks to the nice, targeted, non obtrusive gmail google adsense ads...since they're targeted and non obtrusive text ads I actually find it kind of fun to see what kind of ads my emails produce :p :) ): http://www.davis.com/Default.aspx?page=category%20search%20results&CatList=213&Parent=876&tree=608*Vendor+Drill+Down*0%40%40868*Tektronix+Equipment*0%40%40875*Tektronix+Function+Generators*0%40%40876*Tektronix+AFG3000+Series*213@@:-) From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 01:09:33 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:09:33 -0800 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds In-Reply-To: <004a01c7504b$01b8b540$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> <5dc6fd9e0702132251y3453c8d8j3ff2a6a702207364@mail.gmail.com> <004a01c7504b$01b8b540$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702142309h5c1c3ecao7ceb0da765b07d69@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/07, Jay West wrote: > > Andrew wrote.... > >> Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? > > To which Hex Star replied.... > > Dhrystone From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: > ...snip... > > Just a url link would have been fine :) > > Jay > > oh ok sorry From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 15 02:03:16 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:03:16 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <9e2403920702140726n46dfe19bi9d28f47c2afa9eb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <9e2403920702140726n46dfe19bi9d28f47c2afa9eb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1171526596.17075.98.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 09:26 -0600, Josef Chessor wrote: > On 2/14/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > > use your real name here? > > I don't use my real name here. I use the real-life (and online) > nickname I've had for many years. I'd prefer not to use my real name, > simply because I haven't had to respond to it, nor use it in more than > an official capacity (at the DMV). While some handles or monikers are > hard on the tongue, I don't see much harm in it. It's not like we > actually have to speak these names, on the list. :) So, you're NOT from 17th century Huguenot stock? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 15 02:06:46 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:06:46 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <004801c75054$f3eb7d80$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <200702141537.KAA29133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45D32FA4.8000205@yahoo.co.uk> <004801c75054$f3eb7d80$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1171526806.17075.101.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 10:26 -0600, Jay West wrote: > ok, forget that... here is a better way to put it.... If people insist on > using silly names like "Nosila the Magic User" or "Luke Skywalker" or "Gakor > King of Vithra"... or even worse... "Iceman"... they will simply be laughed > off the channel ;) Indeed. A bit of dignity is to be desired. Henceforth, you may all refer to me as "Your Majesty." Ta. Peace, HRM wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 15 02:09:33 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:09:33 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <005301c75055$813ab8e0$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> <45D33687.2090201@atarimuseum.com> <005301c75055$813ab8e0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1171526973.17075.105.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 10:30 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Curt of the Atari wrote... > >I think that makes sense, this isn't some teen club mailing list, NeXt > > ThInG yOu KnOw WeLl AlL sTaRt TyPiNg LiKe ThIs > YeW R0CK d00d. I got some e733t K001 warez man. That type of insult has no place on a civilized list. To make fun of a species of tree is unacceptable behavior, and calls for an apology to all coniferous trees in general. Ha-RUMPH. Peace, HRM wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 15 02:12:58 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 03:12:58 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: References: <45D3235F.8070709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1171527178.17075.108.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 13:15 -0500, Golan Klinger wrote: > That is my real name, you insensitive clod! ;) Har! We have it, ladies and gentlemen: Best in Show. Good job, old man! Peace, HRM wizard at voyager.net From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 15 02:19:48 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:19:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: televideo 925 keycaps Message-ID: I've unearthed a Televideo 925 that I'd like to put into use. The only problem seems to be a missing keycap. I forget which one at the moment. Does anyone here have a broken 925 keyboard? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 15 03:12:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:12:17 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 E Series on Govliq. In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:01:16 -0800. <45D3E91C.1040709@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <45D3E91C.1040709 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Look at photo number 7. Looks like an HP 1000 E Series machine. Too much > other stuff in the lot though. > > Bob > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1124213&convertTo=USD That's one of those wiggy lots where I don't quite trust govliq. The picture and lot description list HP 1000, but its not in the lot manifest. Anyone near San Antonio, TX want to check it out? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From swebb at cix.co.uk Thu Feb 15 03:27:00 2007 From: swebb at cix.co.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:27 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: 'Pong to Playstation' exhibition at the Museum of Computing Message-ID: 35 years of working computer games consoles will be starring in a new exhibition at the Museum of Computing in Swindon. The exhibition charts the machines, the companies and the games characters that are now part of gaming history. The exhibition is open daily, is free of charge and runs until early August 2007. 'Pong to Playstation' shows the earliest and most unusual machines that ever graced a living room. From the world?s first TV tennis game, through the rise of gaming companies such as Atari, Nintendo, Sega and Sony, over 40 of the best-loved consoles and accessories will be on display. Throughout the exhibition there will be a number of hands-on machines allowing adults to relive their youth and children to play classic games that people still rave about today. The original Super Mario, Sonic the Hedgehog and Space Invaders are just some of the games available on original 1980?s machines. As well as playing the vintage consoles, visitors will be able to explore the design of game characters and build their own or existing characters from Lego! 'Pong to Playstation' runs from Saturday 17th February to Saturday 18th August, Mon-Fri 10:00-16:00, Sat 09:00-13:00. Admission free. Simon Webb Curator, Museum of Computing www.museum-of-computing.org.uk Tel: 07939 582544 From cc at corti-net.de Thu Feb 15 03:37:35 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:37:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP minicarts found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Richard wrote: > In article <1e1fc3e90702141038g69d8f79ne2f9de7dc2166f89 at mail.gmail.com>, > "Glen Slick" writes: >> Even if someone was desperate for any of those tapes, what are the >> chances they would still be readable at this point and there wouldn't >> be spots where the oxide has flaked off? The chances are very good because HP used good tapes (I know of experience). I was able to rescue every HP tape I have. > It would probably be best to go through a bake cycle, that's for sure. No! Don't bake them (it's unnecessary anyway because the tape itself doesn't stick). BUT: You need to unstick the belt from the tape. Open the cartridge and slightly heat the belt until it is black again (sticky belts mostly have a white coating that will vanish when heated). I put these tapes under a desk lamp with a distance of about 20cm (depends on the power of the light bulb) and then wait a couple of minutes while watching the tape. In my experience the biggest problem is the belt. Many of these belts will tear after some time, and finding a replacement belt is difficult. I don't know (haven't tried yet) if a belt from a DC2120 (QIC80) or similar cartridge (those cartridges are easy to find today) can be used. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Thu Feb 15 04:05:42 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:05:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <429527.15674.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <429527.15674.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 2007, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > IBM sold both the 565 and 563 plotters as the 1627 models I & II. I've > been looking for one (IBM branded) for over 5 years now without any > luck. I don't know whether IBM had labelled those plotters with their logo or not. But the Calcomp 565 plotter that came with our IBM 1130 is not IBM branded. Other plotters in our museum: Another Calcomp 565 for the LGP-30 HP 7470, HP 7475, HP DraftPro, HP 7001 and some other HP plotters (for the HP9830 and HP85 series). Christian From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Feb 15 06:08:41 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:08:41 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:33:24 GMT." Message-ID: <200702151208.l1FC8fxq000951@mwave.heeltoe.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > >I've been 'witchy' or 'witchfinder' since about that time too, I mean you >never used your real name on USENET did you :) maybe I'm old school, but "back in the day" everyone did use their real name on usenet. Worst case they used their three letter unix login (like "dmr at alice.uucp" :-) So everyone did know who everyone was. Hiding was considered bogus. I realize that now days everything is different. But since everyone else is commenting, I'll say sympathize with Al. (and note that a little bit of "r" restraint goes a long way...) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Feb 15 06:11:24 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:11:24 -0500 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:30:34 EST." <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200702151211.l1FCBOuZ001841@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > By the way, I'm fairly certain that the Calcomp model number for >the IBM 1627 plotter referenced on your page is 565. is that the plotter I once used connected to an IBM 1620? the one with the cool "hat" plot on the logo (it's actually some sort of 3d damped sin wave - I once had the equation) -brad From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Feb 15 06:28:44 2007 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:28:44 +1100 Subject: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple Bugexploits??? In-Reply-To: <20070212130930.GA2392@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> References: <5dc6fd9e0702101419q4bd8967bmca39de11928e335f@mail.gmail.com> <200702111443.51457.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5dc6fd9e0702111149w5315beabj742682a38d48eb0f@mail.gmail.com> <45CF0D71.21927.28896341@cclist.sydex.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20070211133046.023cae90@pop.1and1.com> <5dc6fd9e0702111628i244e89cbjb2f0abcc56ba3edc@mail.gmail.com> <20070212130930.GA2392@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <01390976-9D6D-428F-AC94-2A12CEC51259@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 13/02/2007, at 12:09 AM, Brian Foley wrote: > On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 11:00:34PM +1100, Huw Davies wrote: >> >> The "bad" news is that a VAX-11/780 has a 500KHz clock (I had to >> check I didn't write 500MHz there :-) > > Err... are you sure you don't mean 5 MHz? I know it was 1977 and they > chiseled ICs directly out of raw basalt back then, but even still! :) > > http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/ > vax700.html#vax700:vax_11_780 > > The early VAXes took quite a few clock cycles to execute each > instruction, > and the 11/780 could execute about 500,000 instructions/sec. > Perhaps this > is where you're getting your figure from? More than happy to stand corrected - yes, I recalled the 500K instructions/second and mapped that to a 500KHz clock. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Feb 15 06:43:55 2007 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:43:55 +1100 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <19406D8F-BA5E-4E1E-A698-28D0A396525B@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 14/02/2007, at 9:52 AM, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? > Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure > exactly? Well obviously :-) Dhrystones are related to Whetstones. The Whetstone was a synthetic benchmark written originally in Algol-60 and the performance of this benchmark using the Whetstone Algol-60 compiler was used to compare Algol-60 compilers (in the days when this had some major relevance). More information can be found in "Algol 60 Compilation and Assessment" by B. A. Wichmann. My copy is around somewhere but not close enough to hand to quote from directly. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jmiles007 at iquest.net Thu Feb 15 06:49:46 2007 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:49:46 -0500 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? In-Reply-To: <003601c7509b$a2ca7a40$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <003601c7509b$a2ca7a40$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001601c750ff$c76424a0$1410a8c0@wtr.local> > A while back a guy (ebay ID was something similar to > 'jeffking') was selling cartons of paper tape for $4.00 each. > > Someone here said that the tape they got was oiled, don't > remember who. I bought a box because all the tape I have is > unoiled, but what I got was definitely not oiled (nor had it > been in the past). > > It's no big deal at all, I'm happy to have more tape > (especially at $4 a carton!!). But I was curious if others > got in on this deal and if what they got was oiled or not? I > wanted oiled for an ASR33... > > Jay > His eBay user ID was jeffking500. I bought 4 boxes and the rolls I got were all definitely oiled. He still has some for sale. See item number 8288222035. Jon From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 15 07:37:17 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:37:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Measuring CPU speeds ( was RE: Why isn't Apple releasing patches for the Month of Apple ) In-Reply-To: <19406D8F-BA5E-4E1E-A698-28D0A396525B@kerberos.davies.net.au> from Huw Davies at "Feb 15, 7 11:43:55 pm" Message-ID: <200702151337.l1FDbH7I028468@floodgap.com> > > Speaking of Dhrystones.... what is one? > > Also, what does the MHz, or GHz, measure > > exactly? > > Well obviously :-) Dhrystones are related to Whetstones. Oh good grief. I never figured that out until now. *groans audibly* I still compute a dhrystones mark on all my new boxes, just for fun. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Only death cures stupidity! -- "Cowboy Bebop: The Movie" ------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 15 07:42:30 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:42:30 -0800 Subject: 'Pong to Playstation' exhibition at the Museum of Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: swebb at cix.co.uk (Simon Webb) > >35 years of working computer games consoles will be starring in a new >exhibition at the Museum of Computing in Swindon. The exhibition charts >the machines, the companies and the games characters that are now part of >gaming history. The exhibition is open daily, is free of charge and runs >until early August 2007. > >'Pong to Playstation' shows the earliest and most unusual machines that >ever graced a living room. ---snip--- Hi Make sure to have a Simon Says. This was an important point in games as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ? buy and sell with people you know http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06 From fire at dls.net Thu Feb 15 07:54:18 2007 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:54:18 -0600 Subject: SGI Crimson Message-ID: I appear to have misplaced, or accidentally given away my SGI Crimson keyboard and mouse. Also, I have a dial box, with AC adapter, and data cable but cannot recall how to hook it into Crimson. Seems to have the same proprietary mini-din that Crimson Keyboard and Mouse use. Does anyone want to part with for cash, or trade? I could also borrow them for a few days if someone is in Chicago area. I just have a few things I have to get off machine. I am seriously considering taking Crimson out of my collection, so interested parties, especially interested parties with keyboard and mouse should email me. Bradley From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Feb 15 08:08:12 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:08:12 +0000 Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <200702150817.l1F8FxYk002221@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702150817.l1F8FxYk002221@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8C2511CE-0EB0-493D-8DAC-81CEDAB15142@microspot.co.uk> On 15 Feb, 2007, at 08:17, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 24 > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:32:02 +0100 (MET) > From: Erik Baigar > Subject: Re: pen plotters? > To: djg at pdp8.net > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > defense-systems.com> > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 djg at pdp8.net wrote: > >> I have a Calcomp 563 drum plotter on my 8/E. >> http://www.pdp8.net/563/563.shtml (need to make a better page now >> that I have it running. Showed it at the last VCF east) > >> to demo but didn't find much. Anybody know of some good ones? >> The format > > With my Calcomp 1038 I encountered the same problem since the > plotter language PCI/906 died out and I do not have got any > documentation about this. In reverse engineering I found > out how to do the basic operations (gotoxy and pen up / pen > down) and wrote a converter progaram. To get samples my > choice was to take the hp2xx utility which is available for > many platforms. With this you can convert HPGL to a simple > gotoxy-style which is than easy to process. This saved a lot > of work on an own interpreter and you are able to plot > most of the hpgl files... > > By the way: Any documents about PCI906 ot it's successor > PCI/907 out there? > > Best regards, > > Erik. I have a copy of "Calcomp 906/907/951/PCI Online Controller Installation Manual" in which section 3 is 'Command Descriptions' which has 49 pages of descriptions. Would this help? Roger. From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Feb 15 09:06:05 2007 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:06:05 +0000 Subject: Thank you, list! Message-ID: <021520071506.14843.45D476DD00012DAB000039FB22058844849DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> There is a product called Cyanopoxy that was written up in the model railroad press a few years ago. It can bond materials such as nylon and delrin. I haven't tried it myself, but the reviews are favorable. It is fairly expensive, though. The link is: http://www.coolchem.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cyanopoxy. Bob +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:45:40 -0600 (CST) From: Tothwolf Subject: Re: Thank you, list! To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Robertson wrote: > At 1:40 PM -0800 2/13/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Great that it worked for you, but be advised that acetone will also (in >> my experience) turn some plastics into grainy mush, so it's not a >> universal solution for plastics. > > Yes, methylene chloride is the proper plastic solvent for styrene types. > Plexiglass, Lexan, and many plastics will soften with this, and bond > almost instantly. Hold for a few seconds to set, then let sit overnight > to reach maximum hardness. Doesn't dissolve the plastic other than at > the contact point. This is the stuff they use in plastic shops...along > with some other solvents. Has anyone found a solvent that will solidly weld the PC+ABS blends yet? I run into various blends of PC+ABS all the time and have yet to find anything that will work well. Methylene Chloride will melt the ABS part of the blend, but it makes a brittle joint. -Toth +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 15 09:11:13 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:11:13 -0600 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702142309h5c1c3ecao7ceb0da765b07d69@mail.gmail.com> References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> <5dc6fd9e0702132251y3453c8d8j3ff2a6a702207364@mail.gmail.com> <004a01c7504b$01b8b540$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5dc6fd9e0702142309h5c1c3ecao7ceb0da765b07d69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D47811.1050901@yahoo.co.uk> Hex Star wrote: >> To which Hex Star replied.... >> > Dhrystone From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: >> ...snip... >> >> Just a url link would have been fine :) >> >> Jay >> > oh ok sorry Although personally I'd prefer a KB or so of text delivered right before my eyeballs rather than having to wander off and fire up a web browser to look at something, but that's just me. Doubtless it depends on the speeds of network connection as to which is preferred... If someone tried to post a few MB of text [1] about something that I wasn't even interested in anyway, *then* I'd get upset :-) [1] presumably there's a few-KB limit on list message size anyway? From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Feb 15 09:47:24 2007 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:47:24 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <200702151208.l1FC8fxq000951@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200702151208.l1FC8fxq000951@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <45D4808C.40706@dragonsweb.org> Brad Parker wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> I've been 'witchy' or 'witchfinder' since about that time too, I mean you >> never used your real name on USENET did you :) > > maybe I'm old school, but "back in the day" everyone did use their > real name on usenet. Worst case they used their three letter unix > login (like "dmr at alice.uucp" :-) > > So everyone did know who everyone was. Hiding was considered bogus. > > I realize that now days everything is different. But since everyone else > is commenting, I'll say sympathize with Al. > > (and note that a little bit of "r" restraint goes a long way...) > > -brad > "back in the day" when most of us plebes were usually not allowed anywhere near a Usenet account, most of us used BBSes and commercial online systems like CIS. True names were the rule on Fidonet and most TI-99 BBeses, although I'm, um, aware of exceptions, and CIS didn't have handles per se. I used my, um, billing name there, on Delphi, Genie, etc. The Commodore and Amiga BBSes were another story. It was more like handles were required. Maybe that was just the local scene, which was also heavy into CB radio. There were board-sponsored offline meets, and everyone met IRL eventually, so it got to be a big game figuring out all the True Names. Until I ran into that scene, the online world seemed like a more trusting place, though. There was only a small percentage of people who even went online, and it was a far less heterogenous mix. Basically either engineers or creative types. Some people got a lot more open than they would say at your average cocktail party, and certainly than at a board meeting. I recall about 10-15 years ago some of the rising dot-commers who found themselves climbing various corporate ladders and such started going back and redacting their posts on the W.E.L.L., various MUDS/MUCS, etc. Myself, aside from occasionally stumbling innocently into the crossfire of various politically-motivated scenario-painters, I don't recall ever posting anything embarrassing enough to warrant that degree of retroactive privacy protection, much less anything to "hide" but I do like to keep my online persona distinct from my real life, such as it is. It's just much less hassle, and I do not like the idea of some crew of coders-for-hire in Hyderabad or somewhere rummaging through my online activities trying to pick my brains, or some quack consultant hired by bumbling cops at the DOJ or Homeland Insecurity datamining and profiling me. Whether the latter realize they are destroying what they claim to want to protect or not, RealID should be seen as the insult and menace to individual sovereignty that it is, by many more than at present. Any amount of terrorists would not be as bad as the new Reich being built. There, somebody invoke Godwin and declare this thread dead, because restraint just suddenly sprang up and ran off somewhere from here :-) jbdigriz From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 15 10:07:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:07:20 -0600 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? References: <003601c7509b$a2ca7a40$6600a8c0@BILLING> <001601c750ff$c76424a0$1410a8c0@wtr.local> Message-ID: <005601c7511b$61b7c9b0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Jon wrote.... > His eBay user ID was jeffking500. I bought 4 boxes and the rolls I got > were > all definitely oiled. He still has some for sale. See item number > 8288222035. The stuff I got was light powder blue in color, with "TOP" and arrows printing. That is just what is pictured in the auction. I had a small reel of oiled tape that came with one of my ASR33's. The tape appeared to have dried out, but there was no mistaking the smell of oil from it. On this blue tape from jeffking, I definitely don't get any smell of oil at all. Are you sure it's oiled? Jay From billdeg at degnanco.net Wed Feb 14 14:59:40 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.net (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:59:40 -0500 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214155923.02f82dd0@mail.degnanco.net> Are the programs from the SWTPc 6800 interchangeable with the Altair 680? Is there a good web reference that compares these two? From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Feb 15 11:05:27 2007 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:05:27 -0800 Subject: Punched cards Message-ID: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> The news isn't good. I don't know if anyone is manufacturing punch (tab) cards anymore. I've done some poking around. National Card West in Long Beach, Calif was acquired by Pacific Data Forms, Inc (www.pacificdataforms.com). PDF sold the punch card equipment to B&D Litho in Phoeniz, AZ, but B&D either no longer has it, or doesn't know it has it, but either way, doesn't make tab cards. Don't call the 702 number for National Card West in Las Vegas -- that number now belongs to a private individual. U.S. Card Corporation in Tiffin, Ohio has closed, according to Doug Jones. Pacific Paper Products (http://www.pacpaper.com/lccc-contab.html) makes continuous feed tab cards -- but that's not what we're after. Ron at B&D gave me these references from the 2001 Print Solutions Magazine Buyers Guide, all of which went to a dead end: Kay Toledo Tag, Toledo, OH no more Impact Printing, Hayward, CA no Windy City Press, IL no Marathon Label, Wassau, WI could probably do it but hasn't in the last 15 years and doesn't have the dies to cut the cards -- would have to be a custom job Doug Jones (Mr. Punched Card himself) may be the right person to respond to this -- Doug, do you know of any card manufacturers left? Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 15 11:24:17 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:24:17 -0500 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? In-Reply-To: <001601c750ff$c76424a0$1410a8c0@wtr.local> References: <003601c7509b$a2ca7a40$6600a8c0@BILLING> <001601c750ff$c76424a0$1410a8c0@wtr.local> Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2007, at 7:49 AM, Jon Miles wrote: >> A while back a guy (ebay ID was something similar to >> 'jeffking') was selling cartons of paper tape for $4.00 each. >> >> Someone here said that the tape they got was oiled, don't >> remember who. I bought a box because all the tape I have is >> unoiled, but what I got was definitely not oiled (nor had it >> been in the past). >> >> It's no big deal at all, I'm happy to have more tape >> (especially at $4 a carton!!). But I was curious if others >> got in on this deal and if what they got was oiled or not? I >> wanted oiled for an ASR33... > > His eBay user ID was jeffking500. I bought 4 boxes and the rolls I > got were > all definitely oiled. He still has some for sale. See item number > 8288222035. The ones I bought from him were "so oiled" that they're stinking up the whole room! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 15 11:28:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:28:23 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> Message-ID: <936E2300-05D7-4F17-BBF8-06F5329D962E@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug- > ins for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and > 7B53A. Yes, that was a pretty decent deal, especially if you don't have to pay to ship it. Assuming it's functional of course. They've been known to go for less, especially if they're all beaten up, but if it's in good shape a 7904 can easily fetch $299. > Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a > curve tracer. Umm...the curve tracer (7CT1N probably) came with it?? That would've been a *serious* score then. That plugin alone typically goes for $150-300. > Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? Yes, they're all over the place. There are some really neat ones available for 7000-series scopes, too...Differential amplifiers, logic analyzers, spectrum analyzers, the aforementioned curve tracer, all sorts of stuff. It's a fantastic platform. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 15 11:29:56 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:29:56 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 E Series on Govliq. In-Reply-To: <45D3E91C.1040709@sbcglobal.net> References: <52432.94080.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D3ABB4.6070401@msm.umr.edu> <45D3E91C.1040709@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1171560596.17075.119.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 21:01 -0800, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Look at photo number 7. Looks like an HP 1000 E Series machine. Too much > other stuff in the lot though. > > Bob > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1124213&convertTo=USD Hey, that looks like a setup used to monitor the cannon used to fire chickens at aircraft windscreens! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Feb 15 12:12:02 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:12:02 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? Message-ID: James B. DiGriz wrote: > The Commodore and Amiga BBSes were another > story. It was more like handles were required. > Maybe that was just the local scene, which was > also heavy into CB radio. My feeling: Using a real name lends a permanence and signifigance and professionalism to a post or action. Using a handle especially a CB-type or phreaker-type one subtracts permanence, signifigance, and professionalism. Expecting professionalism or signifigance on this mailing list is perhaps being too optimistic. It's wonderful to see it when it happens, but I do not expect it to happen. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 15 12:54:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:54:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9815 (was Re : prn plotters) In-Reply-To: <45D3B4B0.D2B56D3C@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 14, 7 05:17:37 pm Message-ID: > > I'm probably mis-remembering the numbers, but isn't the 98135 the HPIB > > interface for the 9815 calculator? I thought hte plotter had HPIB as > > standard. > > > You are correct, I noticed after sending the message that my phrasing was > ambiguous or misleading. > > The plotter has two ports, one for HP-IB and one specifically for a connection > from the 98130A interface in the 9815. > > For some reason the package I received came with both the 98130 interface > (9815->9872) as well as the 98135 interface (9815->HP-IB). Given the HPI-IB > interface already on the plotter, this would seem to be redundant, as I don't > think this 9815 was used with any other HP-IB devices. Going by the doc though, Well, the 9815 wasn't used with HPIB disk drives, and I am not sure if you could simply print to an HPIB printer (you could certainly send characters to one with the 98135, but you may not have been able to, say, list your program to such a printer). But it certainly could work with HPIB lab instruments. It appears that HP designed their desktop calculators as instrument controllers -- BCD interfaces (capable of taking the BCD data sent ot the display drivers in many older digital instruments) exist for the 98x0, 9815 and, IIRC, 98x5 machines. > it appears that the firmware in the 98130 may make for much easier programming > of the 9815 to control the plotter, compared to going through the generic HP-IB > interface. I am almost sure it does. > > > > I don;t know how much you know about the 9815 internals, but anyway. It's > > a 6800-based design -- apart from the firmware ROMs, all the chips are > > I don't have the schematic and haven't RE'd it, but am aware of the 6800. If you can put up with my handwriting, you can download my RE'ed schematics from http://www,hpmuseum.net/ . They're on the documantation page for the 9815. > Having written some assembler code for the 6800 and being somewhat aware of > object sizes for such, I think when I looked inside the 9815 I was somewhat > surprised that they managed to fit all the firmware code into (IIRC) 2KB of > ROM, considering all the math functions, programming capability, tape-drive > control, printer control, etc. that would be in there. Either that or I > missed seeing a ROM chip somewhere. No, you've nis-interpretted the ROM size. There are 2 versions of the HP9815 processor board. The original one uses 2112 RAMs (256*4), and 2Kbyte ROM chips. It's laid out for 8 such chips, only 7 are fitted (so 14K of ROM). This board can take a RAM expansion board that mounts on the track side (top) of the PCB at the rear edge. The later version of the CPU board uses 2114 RAMs (and has a total of 4K RAM that can't be further expanded). THis board has 2 8K byte ROM chips, but only 6K of the second ROM is normally accessible (so the sake size -- 14K -- of ROM). You can solder a link on the CPU board (it's shown on the schematic) to enable that last 2K. I don't know if it does anything useful, but it is structured as a peripheal ROM, the system will find it, and it does have sensible command names. I've had my 9815 totally apart, of course. If you're tempted to do the same, can I recmend against dismantling the keyboard. For one thing the PCB is held down by around 100 timy screws. And when you get the PCB off, the keycpas fall out and are a right pain to get back. Don't ask.... Suffice it to day I had to send a panic e-mail to a couple of lists asking for the order of keycaps in part of the keyboard... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 15 12:56:43 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:56:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thank you, list! In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Feb 14, 7 05:53:16 pm Message-ID: > > chloride and is what I sue for repairing broken computer cases, etc. > > I would like to press charges against a bottle of methyl ethyl ketone. Actually, what I'd like to sue for broken computer cases would be the carriage companes and/or idiot e-bay sellers who can't pack things properly (not that I, personally, have had dealings with any of those). -tony From bear at typewritten.org Thu Feb 15 13:12:51 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:12:51 -0800 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90887B9C-F915-4C9B-9EF6-A603F8F4D51B@typewritten.org> On Feb 14, 2007, at 2:27 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for > the switches and lights. After receiving them, I find they are too > neat to tear apart. They were said to come from a telephone company > central office. Does anyone recognize these? I can't find any names > on them. > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_panel1.JPG > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/tele_comp_pnl1.JPG I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest it's a control panel from something like an IBM Coupling Facility (which wouldn't have existed as a product in 1968) for a 360, which would have had "channels" and was available custom in triplex processor configurations. References: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#26 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#7 http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictures/display/3-1.htm http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandDefense/bg12.cfm http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/ trans/tq/&toc=comp/trans/tq/2004/01/q1toc.xml&DOI=10.1109/TDSC.2004.4 ok bear From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 13:27:56 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:27:56 -0500 Subject: Punched cards In-Reply-To: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: > The news isn't good. I don't know if anyone is manufacturing punch > (tab) cards anymore. I've done some poking around. PANIC! No, don't. Any halfway decent printshop can make punchcards. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 15 14:11:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:11:59 -0800 Subject: Punched cards In-Reply-To: References: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com>, Message-ID: <45D44E0F.26187.61F2697@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Feb 2007 at 14:27, William Donzelli wrote: > No, don't. Any halfway decent printshop can make punchcards. If you didn't care about the printing on them, it'd be almost trivial to order a bunch from a paper products supplier who can cut to order. Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 15 15:07:27 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:07:27 -0800 Subject: Punched cards In-Reply-To: References: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <45D4CB8F.2060509@sbcglobal.net> I have not been following this thread, are we talking about standard IBM 5081 punched cards? If so, check http://www.cardamation.com/ Bob William Donzelli wrote: >> The news isn't good. I don't know if anyone is manufacturing punch >> (tab) cards anymore. I've done some poking around. > > > PANIC! > > > > > > No, don't. Any halfway decent printshop can make punchcards. > > -- > Will > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 15 15:14:24 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:14:24 -0500 Subject: Punched cards In-Reply-To: <45D44E0F.26187.61F2697@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200702152114.l1FLEwVi014097@keith.ezwind.net> I ratteled the cage at an old supplier, to discover that they scrapped the card presses about 10 years ago, I did give the sales department a good laugh. I did find a snowbird who still has a few boxes stashed away, who has agreed to ship them to me, when they get back home. I think we are talking about a dozen boxes of 2,000 mostly white and cream. later The other Bob From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 15:47:24 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:47:24 -0500 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" Message-ID: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> Hello, while doing some cleanup, I came across the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics". Finding some fun ads for classic computers I decided to scan them for the benefits of owners of those on this list :-) IMSAI 8080 full page color ad Altair 680 full page color ad Poly 88 3/4 page b/w ad Schweber SC/MP 3/4 b/w ad SWTP 6800 full page b/w ad Processor Technology single column ad for an I/O card I've put them up on picasa for now, but those are low quality jpg images - if someone wants the full 600dpi lossless scans (huge!) please e-mail me. Note, I'm not quite sure about the copyright issues involved in scanning ads for defunct companies out of defunct magazines. If someone here tells me ther is an issue, I'll remove them ASAP. http://picasaweb.google.com/Joachim.Thiemann/ComputerAds Enjoy! Joe From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 15 17:07:27 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:07:27 -0700 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D4E7AF.2000207@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I've put them up on picasa for now, but those are low quality jpg > images - if someone wants the full 600dpi lossless scans (huge!) > please e-mail me. I kind of would like 2x the size ... I just can't read the text. > Note, I'm not quite sure about the copyright issues involved in > scanning ads for defunct companies out of defunct magazines. If > someone here tells me ther is an issue, I'll remove them ASAP. The only problem I have is wanting to mail in the coupon at the bottom of ad. :) From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Feb 15 17:52:31 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:52:31 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <936E2300-05D7-4F17-BBF8-06F5329D962E@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> At 12:28 PM 2/15/2007 -0500, you wrote: >On Feb 14, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug- ins >>for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and >>7B53A. > > Yes, that was a pretty decent deal, especially if you don't have >to pay to ship it. Assuming it's functional of course. They've been >known to go for less, especially if they're all beaten up, but if >it's in good shape a 7904 can easily fetch $299. I went back to them and countered with $240. I won the deal and will pay $240 plus fiddy-two bucks to ship it. Woohoo! >>Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a >>curve tracer. > > Umm...the curve tracer (7CT1N probably) came with it?? That >would've been a *serious* score then. That plugin alone typically >goes for $150-300. > >>Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? > > Yes, they're all over the place. There are some really neat ones >available for 7000-series scopes, too...Differential amplifiers, >logic analyzers, spectrum analyzers, the aforementioned curve tracer, >all sorts of stuff. It's a fantastic platform. I'm wondering if there's a list somewhere of just what plugins I can drool over and/or search for. I'm not having any luck phrasing my search properly so far. Like maybe a channel input amp that will give me better bandwidth so I can do some VHF/UHF with it. I hear that the 7A26 is good up to 200 mHz? Is that right? > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > > [Philosophy] ". . . a boss who is forced to part a man's hair with a wrench has failed at some point." Heinlein: Podkayne, quoting her mother, _Podkayne of Mars_ --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From doug at stillhq.com Thu Feb 15 18:14:05 2007 From: doug at stillhq.com (Hacksaw) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:14:05 +1100 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <200702150817.l1F8FxYj002221@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702150817.l1F8FxYj002221@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45D4F74D.50204@stillhq.com> I am comfortable with people using whatever alias they desire - There has not been a policy to date. In any case, it is not the list that defines the name, it is the 'sender' field of the persons email product... BTW, As a quiet person who has enjoyed reading the list (via digest), there has been many times when I simply hit the delete button, as a number of people were getting quite petty. I see the same behaviours amongst some of the people in other groups I am members of - It speaks volumes about the participants. :-( Just my 0.02C worth Hex Star - Well done for a quite amusing handle. Doug (For the purposes of this email - also known as >>> HACKSAW <<< , Sadly, my profession dictates that I must now change the email system back to use my name - Lest some of my clients believe that I am being unprofessional !) On 2/14/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > > use your real name here? > > > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". > > > > > > > > > > Your singling out of a member is not the least bit appreciated...if you intended to send me a message by doing so you failed miserably...next time try communicating with me properly and politely offlist and perhaps we can get somewhere ;-) ------------------------------ -- Doug Jackson, MAIPM, MIEEE Senior Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 15 18:30:47 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:30:47 -0800 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> Message-ID: <45D4FB37.8070808@mindspring.com> Tom Peters wrote: > At 12:28 PM 2/15/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> On Feb 14, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>> I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug- >>> ins for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and >>> 7B53A. >> >> Yes, that was a pretty decent deal, especially if you don't have >> to pay to ship it. Assuming it's functional of course. They've been >> known to go for less, especially if they're all beaten up, but if >> it's in good shape a 7904 can easily fetch $299. > > I went back to them and countered with $240. I won the deal and will > pay $240 plus fiddy-two bucks to ship it. Woohoo! > >>> Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a >>> curve tracer. >> >> Umm...the curve tracer (7CT1N probably) came with it?? That >> would've been a *serious* score then. That plugin alone typically >> goes for $150-300. >> >>> Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? >> >> Yes, they're all over the place. There are some really neat ones >> available for 7000-series scopes, too...Differential amplifiers, >> logic analyzers, spectrum analyzers, the aforementioned curve tracer, >> all sorts of stuff. It's a fantastic platform. > > I'm wondering if there's a list somewhere of just what plugins I can > drool over and/or search for. I'm not having any luck phrasing my > search properly so far. Like maybe a channel input amp that will give > me better bandwidth so I can do some VHF/UHF with it. I hear that the > 7A26 is good up to 200 mHz? Is that right? > Yup, correct. Go to http://www.caip.rutgers.edu/~kahrs/testeq/7000.html for tables and pix of 7000 series stuff. The 7A29 is a single channel 1GHz plugin, 7B92A or 7B10/7B15 timebases. The S4/7S11/7T11 combo is cool if you want a10+GHz sampling capability. I have a 7104 with 7A29s, 7B10/15 and S4/7S11/7T11 and it is pretty cool 70s technology. Don North AK6DN From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 18:32:29 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:32:29 -0800 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <936E2300-05D7-4F17-BBF8-06F5329D962E@neurotica.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702151632g247fc95frc95f36cd1dab7eeb@mail.gmail.com> On 2/15/07, Tom Peters wrote: > I'm wondering if there's a list somewhere of just what plugins I can drool > over and/or search for. I'm not having any luck phrasing my search properly > so far. Like maybe a channel input amp that will give me better bandwidth > so I can do some VHF/UHF with it. I hear that the 7A26 is good up to 200 > mHz? Is that right? > Should be easy to find lots of info on the Tek 7000 series: http://www.tek.com/Measurement/Support/faq/history.html http://www.caip.rutgers.edu/~kahrs/testeq/7000.html http://www.slack.com/TE/Tillman/Tek7000-Tillman.html From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 19:29:18 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:29:18 -0500 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" In-Reply-To: <45D4E7AF.2000207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> <45D4E7AF.2000207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e0702151729x15253084k265c3a432c9c4494@mail.gmail.com> On 15/02/07, woodelf wrote: > I kind of would like 2x the size ... I just can't read the text. Hmmm, when I tested the images, I could read the text once I hit the magnifying button on the top right corner. Otherwise, give me an FTP address, and I'll happily send you the real thing :-) (The full-page color ads are ~80M pdf files) Joe. From jmiles007 at iquest.net Thu Feb 15 19:29:02 2007 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:29:02 -0500 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? In-Reply-To: <005601c7511b$61b7c9b0$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <003601c7509b$a2ca7a40$6600a8c0@BILLING><001601c750ff$c76424a0$1410a8c0@wtr.local> <005601c7511b$61b7c9b0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001101c75169$d7625470$6e01a8c0@wtr.local> Jay wrote... > > The stuff I got was light powder blue in color, with "TOP" > and arrows printing. That is just what is pictured in the auction. Yup, that is exactly what I received. > > I had a small reel of oiled tape that came with one of my > ASR33's. The tape appeared to have dried out, but there was > no mistaking the smell of oil from it. On this blue tape from > jeffking, I definitely don't get any smell of oil at all. Are > you sure it's oiled? > Yes it is definitely oiled...no mistaking that smell even if I haven't smelled it in almost 30 years (just picked up an ASR33 about a year ago for my pdp8/e project, first one I've worked on since 1976). I would have been OK if it was not oiled but it would be tough to figure out a way to fanfold it to use in the PC04.... I bought a whole case from him which was four small boxes of 7 rolls each which were in a larger carton. Even the outer carton was oily and when it was delivered my wife took it straight out to the garage it smelled so strongly. The outer carton has part number 2003180 on it addressed to the Transportation Officer at Holliman AFB in New Mexico. It is dated 3-27-74 and says it contains 28 rolls of 1 x 8 Oiled paper tape. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 15 19:37:23 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:37:23 -0700 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0702151729x15253084k265c3a432c9c4494@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> <45D4E7AF.2000207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0702151729x15253084k265c3a432c9c4494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D50AD3.5080801@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Hmmm, when I tested the images, I could read the text once I hit the > magnifying button on the top right corner. Otherwise, give me an FTP > address, and I'll happily send you the real thing :-) (The full-page > color ads are ~80M pdf files) Well on dial up that will be about 3 days for me for the lot. What I was looking for was the total memory supplied with the systems. I seems to be 1K to 8K static ram with the basic system. How much memory was expected back then? When I had a S100 - Z80 kit I was hopping to get 24K ram. What did power users use back then? > Joe. > From allain at panix.com Thu Feb 15 19:41:16 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:41:16 -0500 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? References: Message-ID: <00a501c7516b$8d2f8240$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> From: Tim Shoppa > Expecting professionalism or signifigance on this > mailing list is perhaps being too optimistic. It's > wonderful to see it when it happens, but I do not > expect it to happen. Good problem statement, and, one less eMail for me to have to delete. John A. going back to the deletes bonus lines: "Whenever I'm about to do a thing I think Would an IDIOT do that? And if so, I do NOT do that thing." -- Dwight Schrute, "The Office" just airing now From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 20:02:46 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:02:46 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <00a501c7516b$8d2f8240$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <00a501c7516b$8d2f8240$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702151802u6d084f47i77980fd6d68ba890@mail.gmail.com> On 2/15/07, John Allain wrote: > > From: Tim Shoppa > > Expecting professionalism or signifigance on this > > mailing list is perhaps being too optimistic. It's > > wonderful to see it when it happens, but I do not > > expect it to happen. > > Good problem statement, and, one less eMail for me to have to delete. > > John A. > going back to the deletes > > bonus lines: > "Whenever I'm about to do a thing I think > Would an IDIOT do that? > And if so, I do NOT do that thing." > -- Dwight Schrute, "The Office" > just airing now > No need to delete when you have gmail! :D From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 20:04:46 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:04:46 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <45D4F74D.50204@stillhq.com> References: <200702150817.l1F8FxYj002221@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45D4F74D.50204@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702151804j6f37ae61pb2ef62449f11812@mail.gmail.com> On 2/15/07, Hacksaw wrote: > > > > Hex Star - Well done for a quite amusing handle. > > > > > > On 2/14/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > > > use your real name here? > > > > > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > > > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your singling out of a member is not the least bit appreciated...if you > intended to send me a message by doing so you failed miserably...next time > try communicating with me properly and politely offlist and perhaps we can > get somewhere ;-) > > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Doug Jackson, MAIPM, MIEEE > > Senior Information Security Consultant > EWA-AUSTRALIA > PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 > Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 > > Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 > Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 > Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 > > http://www.ewa-australia.com > > > ============================================ > > IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare > Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, > you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph > +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be > copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission > of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled > in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). > > ============================================ > Hehe thanks ^_^...came back from when I was a real youngster and had to think up a username for a forum I was going to join...I was thinking hexstar because I've always wanted to be a good programmer and hex is partly what files are made of and star meaning...I'm great at hex/programming stuff and thus my handle :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 20:06:13 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:06:13 -0800 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702151804j6f37ae61pb2ef62449f11812@mail.gmail.com> References: <200702150817.l1F8FxYj002221@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45D4F74D.50204@stillhq.com> <5dc6fd9e0702151804j6f37ae61pb2ef62449f11812@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702151806m37acf813y193f2ef112e25b4@mail.gmail.com> On 2/15/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > > On 2/15/07, Hacksaw wrote: > > > > > > > > Hex Star - Well done for a quite amusing handle. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/14/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > > > I was wondering if we can estabish that you have to > > > > use your real name here? > > > > > > > > "Hex Star" stands out like a sore thumb. Everyone else > > > > on this list uses their real name, not a "handle". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your singling out of a member is not the least bit appreciated...if you > > intended to send me a message by doing so you failed miserably...next > > time > > try communicating with me properly and politely offlist and perhaps we > > can > > get somewhere ;-) > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > -- > > Doug Jackson, MAIPM, MIEEE > > > > Senior Information Security Consultant > > EWA-AUSTRALIA > > PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 > > Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 > > > > Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 > > Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 > > Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 > > > > http://www.ewa-australia.com > > > > > > ============================================ > > > > IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare > > Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, > > you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph > > +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be > > copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission > > of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled > > in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). > > > > ============================================ > > > > Hehe thanks ^_^...came back from when I was a real youngster and had to > think up a username for a forum I was going to join...I was thinking hexstar > because I've always wanted to be a good programmer and hex is partly what > files are made of and star meaning...I'm great at hex/programming stuff and > thus my handle :-) > oh and in case you're wondering, the reason for my emails coming out as Hex Star instead of hexstar is because gmail requires a first and last name so I just split my handle in two...if it was just one big text field for first and last name I would've put in hexstar but alas... :p :) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 20:08:07 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:08:07 -0800 Subject: Punched cards In-Reply-To: <45D4CB8F.2060509@sbcglobal.net> References: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> <45D4CB8F.2060509@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 2/15/07, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I have not been following this thread, are we talking about standard IBM > 5081 punched cards? > If so, check http://www.cardamation.com/ > Wow, I didn't know Cardamation was still in business. Not only do they have standard (5081) 80 col cards but they have parts for old equipment. I noticed this in their site: "We also stock all parts for Decision Data 8010 / 8035 / 8045 / 9610 Reader Punches and IBM 029 / 129 Punches, plus IBM 083 / 084 Sorters." Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From hexstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 20:08:53 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:08:53 -0800 Subject: Measuring CPU speeds In-Reply-To: <45D47811.1050901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200702132252.l1DMqPNf084565@keith.ezwind.net> <5dc6fd9e0702132251y3453c8d8j3ff2a6a702207364@mail.gmail.com> <004a01c7504b$01b8b540$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5dc6fd9e0702142309h5c1c3ecao7ceb0da765b07d69@mail.gmail.com> <45D47811.1050901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702151808w5ca28235hc5e26dc10a5cb04c@mail.gmail.com> On 2/15/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hex Star wrote: > >> To which Hex Star replied.... > >> > Dhrystone From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: > >> ...snip... > >> > >> Just a url link would have been fine :) > >> > >> Jay > >> > > oh ok sorry > > > > [1] presumably there's a few-KB limit on list message size anyway? > > > > Wanna try and find out? I got some 5mb or so files... XD From feedle at feedle.net Thu Feb 15 21:36:33 2007 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:36:33 -0700 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2455D2A3-A6BC-46C2-BA7A-E53890CB2BCD@feedle.net> On Feb 15, 2007, at 11:12 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > James B. DiGriz wrote: >> The Commodore and Amiga BBSes were another >> story. It was more like handles were required. >> Maybe that was just the local scene, which was >> also heavy into CB radio. > > My feeling: > > Using a real name lends a permanence and signifigance > and professionalism to a post or action. > > Using a handle especially a CB-type or phreaker-type > one subtracts permanence, signifigance, and > professionalism. I strongly disagree. There are many circles, both personal and professional, where I'm known simply as "feedle". It is a moniker I've been known by since 1982, and there are long-time friends of mine who didn't even know I had a "real name" worth writing down until I got married and they were wondering who this "Chris" character was that was sending them a wedding invitation. My reasons for using a "handle" (as it were) are varied. But, quite simply, I have an extremely common name that is shared literally by tens of thousands of people. It was a name given to me, not one I chose.. and in many ways I feel it doesn't "fit" me at all. Yes, perhaps I have "damage" in that department, but it doesn't change the fact that I choose to use a pseudonym for most of my online activities. There are thousands of people named "Chris Sullivan". Heck, when I lived in San Francisco, it amused me to no end that there not only was another Chris Sullivan in San Francisco, but.. he worked as a photographer (which I did). And, he worked on Folsom St., which I also did. And, he moved to San Francisco from Bakersfield, which I also did. However, in the circles I travel in, everybody knows who I am. I don't hide behind it: in fact, I've been using "feedle" as a nickname for so long now that I am more likely to be introduced by others using that name than any other. You also can get a pretty clear picture of who I am by Googling that name, and if you're creative with the "-" filter and exclude references to the children's book character and the musician in England by that name you will find that it has as much permanence and significance to who I am as my actual name. Further, you will get a lot clearer view of who I really am than you'd ever get by Googling for "Chris Sullivan", even if you knew significant details of my personal life. Maybe I'm the exception. There are a ton of people with my "real name." There aren't very many people named "feedle." From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 15 21:52:38 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:52:38 -0600 Subject: requirement for use of your real name on this list? References: <200702150817.l1F8FxYj002221@dewey.classiccmp.org><45D4F74D.50204@stillhq.com> <5dc6fd9e0702151804j6f37ae61pb2ef62449f11812@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e501c7517d$e6c7bcc0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> HS wrote.... > Hehe thanks ^_^...came back from when I was a real youngster and had to PLEASE trim your posts when you reply! Jay West From jclang at notms.net Thu Feb 15 22:29:00 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:29:00 -0500 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214155923.02f82dd0@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214155923.02f82dd0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <45D5330C.9000301@notms.net> B. Degnan wrote: > Are the programs from the SWTPc 6800 interchangeable with the Altair > 680? Is there a good web reference that compares these two? > > there are several differences that affect interchange between the mits 680 and the swtpc the acia address is $F000 in mits swtpc uses a bit banging PIA at $8004 swtpc uses the mikbug monitor ROM, mits uses a custom monitor rom that looks a lot like minibug. (later swtpc systems used SWTBUG and an ACIA) swtpc has a scratchpad RAM at $A000 mits has all RAM contigous starting at $0000 swtpc runs at aprox. 900kHZ mits runs at 500KHZ mits has a configuration register at $F002 swtpc doesn't have one. both systems use KC standard cassette at 300baud and motorola S1-S9 records joe From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Thu Feb 15 23:41:25 2007 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:41:25 -0600 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far Message-ID: They are rough, but with some work I think they can look decent: http://www.box.net/public/47dcog63bd More detailed pics of the first one: http://www.box.net/public/t3d0ly3yas with some of it cleaned up: http://www.box.net/public/oqs1fchyu0 I hope to get some (or all?) of the boards soon too, since they are all missing. The third machine has indications inside that it was an 1108 (LISP) workstation. I don't know if I'll be able to get hold of any software or docs yet. Richard Lynch From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 23:50:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:50:49 -0500 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/16/07, Richard Lynch wrote: > They are rough, but with some work I think they can look decent: > http://www.box.net/public/47dcog63bd Wow! Never seen a pile of Xerox stuff like that in Ohio... I think they must have been much more common in CA and elsewhere. Nice haul! -ethan From erik at baigar.de Fri Feb 16 00:39:32 2007 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:39:32 +0100 (MET) Subject: pen plotters? In-Reply-To: <8C2511CE-0EB0-493D-8DAC-81CEDAB15142@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > > By the way: Any documents about PCI906 ot it's successor > > PCI/907 out there? > > > I have a copy of "Calcomp 906/907/951/PCI Online Controller > Installation Manual" > in which section 3 is 'Command Descriptions' which has 49 pages of > descriptions. > > Would this help? > Hi Roger, this is exactly what I have been looking for since I got the plotter 10 years ago. In the first year I did a lot of research to reverse engineer the basic commands so I am able to control the basic functions of the plotter but the more advanced features like drawing speed, character commands, maybe hatching commands I was unable to decypher. Are you willing to share this information? Of course I'd pay for copy and shipping and I could put the copy onto a scanner... Erik. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Feb 15 11:39:33 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:39:33 -0500 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 Message-ID: <0JDI005KDM9WH2N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 > From: "B. Degnan" > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:59:40 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >Are the programs from the SWTPc 6800 interchangeable with the Altair 680? >Is there a good web reference that compares these two? > Yes [it is a 6800 is both cases] and no [they are not identical for io or memory maps]. Depends on the IO and where the program runs in memory as they have slightly different memeory maps. Also if memory serves the 680 used a differnt monitor program than SWTP so any program that uses the monitor for IO or other routines are iffy. Allison From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Thu Feb 15 14:04:14 2007 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:04:14 -0600 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? In-Reply-To: <005601c7511b$61b7c9b0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: on 2/15/07 10:07 AM, Jay West at jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > Jon wrote.... >> His eBay user ID was jeffking500. I bought 4 boxes and the rolls I got >> were >> all definitely oiled. He still has some for sale. See item number >> 8288222035. > > The stuff I got was light powder blue in color, with "TOP" and arrows > printing. That is just what is pictured in the auction. > > I had a small reel of oiled tape that came with one of my ASR33's. The tape > appeared to have dried out, but there was no mistaking the smell of oil from > it. On this blue tape from jeffking, I definitely don't get any smell of oil > at all. Are you sure it's oiled? > > Jay > > My box contained oiled tape as well - it reeks of the smell, and has "oiled" stamped on the outside. I emailed jeffking asking if he had any unoiled and he responded no it was all the same (?) Richard Lynch From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 16 01:45:11 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:45:11 -0800 Subject: HP9815 (was Re : prn plotters) References: Message-ID: <45D56104.5F781CA9@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > There are 2 versions of the HP9815 processor board. The original one uses > 2112 RAMs (256*4), and 2Kbyte ROM chips. It's laid out for 8 such chips, > only 7 are fitted (so 14K of ROM). This board can take a RAM expansion > board that mounts on the track side (top) of the PCB at the rear edge. I opened it up and the 7 ROM chips are pretty obvious, I must have seen them before. The 6800 is marked only with HP's house number, so I'm guessing I read something somewhere that told me it was a 6800 and left me with the impression there was only 2K of ROM. 14K of firmware code certainly makes more sense. > I've had my 9815 totally apart, of course. If you're tempted to do the > same, can I recmend against dismantling the keyboard. For one thing the > PCB is held down by around 100 timy screws. And when you get the PCB off, > the keycpas fall out and are a right pain to get back. Don't ask.... On the unit I have ~ 9 of every 10 of those tiny screws is instead a push-pin inserted into the plastic, so the keyboard isn't about to come apart without a high likelihood of breaking things. I'd rather have the screws, for cleaning and potential repairs. > Suffice it to day I had to send a panic e-mail to a couple of lists > asking for the order of keycaps in part of the keyboard... (.. or power it up, press the keys and find out what they do..) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 16 01:54:53 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:54:53 -0800 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214155923.02f82dd0@mail.degnanco.net> <45D5330C.9000301@notms.net> Message-ID: <45D5634A.7B0A627C@cs.ubc.ca> > B. Degnan wrote: > > Are the programs from the SWTPc 6800 interchangeable with the Altair > > 680? Is there a good web reference that compares these two? I always kind of wondered why MITS bothered to produce the 680. Given the timing of it after the SWTP 6800 and their own Altair, it seemed more like a backwards step. Just trying to take market share away from SWTP perhaps? From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 02:12:17 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:12:17 -0800 Subject: HP9815 (was Re : prn plotters) In-Reply-To: References: <45D3B4B0.D2B56D3C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702160012o62de0e28ue24bf85393d4abab@mail.gmail.com> On 2/15/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'm probably mis-remembering the numbers, but isn't the 98135 the HPIB > > > interface for the 9815 calculator? I thought hte plotter had HPIB as > > > standard. > > > > > You are correct, I noticed after sending the message that my phrasing > was > > ambiguous or misleading. > > > > The plotter has two ports, one for HP-IB and one specifically for a > connection > > from the 98130A interface in the 9815. > > > > For some reason the package I received came with both the 98130 > interface > > (9815->9872) as well as the 98135 interface (9815->HP-IB). Given the > HPI-IB > > interface already on the plotter, this would seem to be redundant, as I > don't > > think this 9815 was used with any other HP-IB devices. Going by the doc > though, > > Well, the 9815 wasn't used with HPIB disk drives, and I am not sure if > you could simply print to an HPIB printer (you could certainly send > characters to one with the 98135, but you may not have been able to, say, > list your program to such a printer). But it certainly could work with > HPIB lab instruments. It appears that HP designed their desktop > calculators as instrument controllers -- BCD interfaces (capable of > taking the BCD data sent ot the display drivers in many older digital > instruments) exist for the 98x0, 9815 and, IIRC, 98x5 machines. > > > it appears that the firmware in the 98130 may make for much easier > programming > > of the 9815 to control the plotter, compared to going through the > generic HP-IB > > interface. > > I am almost sure it does. > > > > > > > > I don;t know how much you know about the 9815 internals, but anyway. > It's > > > a 6800-based design -- apart from the firmware ROMs, all the chips are > > > > I don't have the schematic and haven't RE'd it, but am aware of the > 6800. > > If you can put up with my handwriting, you can download my RE'ed > schematics from http://www,hpmuseum.net/ . They're on the documantation > page for the 9815. > > > > Having written some assembler code for the 6800 and being somewhat aware > of > > object sizes for such, I think when I looked inside the 9815 I was > somewhat > > surprised that they managed to fit all the firmware code into (IIRC) 2KB > of > > ROM, considering all the math functions, programming capability, > tape-drive > > control, printer control, etc. that would be in there. Either that or I > > missed seeing a ROM chip somewhere. > > No, you've nis-interpretted the ROM size. > > There are 2 versions of the HP9815 processor board. The original one uses > 2112 RAMs (256*4), and 2Kbyte ROM chips. It's laid out for 8 such chips, > only 7 are fitted (so 14K of ROM). This board can take a RAM expansion > board that mounts on the track side (top) of the PCB at the rear edge. > > The later version of the CPU board uses 2114 RAMs (and has a total of 4K > RAM that can't be further expanded). THis board has 2 8K byte ROM chips, > but only 6K of the second ROM is normally accessible (so the sake size -- > 14K -- of ROM). You can solder a link on the CPU board (it's shown on the > schematic) to enable that last 2K. I don't know if it does anything > useful, but it is structured as a peripheal ROM, the system will find it, > and it does have sensible command names. > > I've had my 9815 totally apart, of course. If you're tempted to do the > same, can I recmend against dismantling the keyboard. For one thing the > PCB is held down by around 100 timy screws. And when you get the PCB off, > the keycpas fall out and are a right pain to get back. Don't ask.... > Suffice it to day I had to send a panic e-mail to a couple of lists > asking for the order of keycaps in part of the keyboard... > > -tony > > prn printers? do you mean porn printers? boy where was I?! :D From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 02:17:11 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:17:11 -0800 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I hope to get some (or all?) of the boards soon too, since they are all > missing. The third machine has indications inside that it was an 1108 > (LISP) workstation. I don't know if I'll be able to get hold of any > software or docs yet. I hope you get the boards too. Nice Find. Not may of those left. The 8 inch hard drives are still installed in the chassis so they may still have SW on them. However they do not seemed locked down. There is a lever if they are an early model Quantum, Q8020 or 8040. some of the late model Q 2080s were auto park. There is also a motor pully lock which I can see off to the side in one picture (second set, third pic) . It is what makes me think they are not parked. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 16 02:18:38 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:18:38 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>> I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four >>> plug- ins for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 >>> 7CTIN and >>> 7B53A. >> >> Yes, that was a pretty decent deal, especially if you don't have >> to pay to ship it. Assuming it's functional of course. They've been >> known to go for less, especially if they're all beaten up, but if >> it's in good shape a 7904 can easily fetch $299. > > I went back to them and countered with $240. I won the deal and > will pay $240 plus fiddy-two bucks to ship it. Woohoo! SCORE! :-) > I'm wondering if there's a list somewhere of just what plugins I > can drool over and/or search for. I'm not having any luck phrasing > my search properly so far. Like maybe a channel input amp that will > give me better bandwidth so I can do some VHF/UHF with it. I hear > that the 7A26 is good up to 200 mHz? Is that right? I see others have already answered these questions...So I'll just reiterate: SCORE! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 02:20:28 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:20:28 -0800 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > is a lever if they are an early model Quantum, Q8020 or 8040. some of > the late model Q 2080s were auto park. > That is Q2020 or Q2040 and Q2080 which are 8 inch hard drives of 20, 40 and 80 megabytes respectively. Memory seems to be slipping in old age. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 02:29:31 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:29:31 -0800 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> Message-ID: If you need parts or service help, hang out here; http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ Several old time tekies hang out there, not to mention nearly 3000 members to help. I really like the 7000 series scopes. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Feb 16 03:13:33 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:13:33 +0000 Subject: Calcomp manual (was Re: pen plotters?) In-Reply-To: <200702160643.l1G6giak016559@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702160643.l1G6giak016559@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <14743852-717A-40EE-B0C5-C878A88F922B@microspot.co.uk> > Message: 29 > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:39:32 +0100 (MET) > From: Erik Baigar > Subject: Re: pen plotters? >>> >> I have a copy of "Calcomp 906/907/951/PCI Online Controller >> Installation Manual" >> in which section 3 is 'Command Descriptions' which has 49 pages of >> descriptions. >> > Hi Roger, this is exactly what I have been > looking for since I got the plotter 10 years > ago. > > In the first year I did a lot of research to > reverse engineer the basic commands so I am > able to control the basic functions of the > plotter but the more advanced features like > drawing speed, character commands, maybe > hatching commands I was unable to decypher. > > Are you willing to share this information? > Of course I'd pay for copy and shipping and > I could put the copy onto a scanner... > > Erik. Yes I can copy it for you. It is stapled so I can un-staple it and put it through the Automatic Document Feeder on the copier. Actually the copier can scan into a folder on the network server I think, though I think the resolution is fixed, either 300 or 600dpi, and its probably always 24 bit colour. That makes the files for a 200 page document a bit big. I will find out the details when I get to work and let you know so you can decide how you want it. You will need to agree that if the copyright owner were to come after me that you would destroy the copy, but I don't think that's likely. I once visited CalComp's plant in Anaheim , and there did not seem to be many people about, and when I went to the toilet, that's when I realised they were not doing well. Its surprising what you can tell from a company's toilets. Soon after it was official, (Chapter 11?). Roger. From cc at corti-net.de Fri Feb 16 03:17:31 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:17:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Punched cards In-Reply-To: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Brian Knittel wrote: > The news isn't good. I don't know if anyone is manufacturing punch > (tab) cards anymore. I've done some poking around. Of course. Hummel KG in Magstadt will manufacture and sell you punch cards either with standard printing (like the omnipresent Z5 card) or individual printing. But they can't do color or two-side printing any more. Christian From jclang at notms.net Fri Feb 16 04:42:57 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:42:57 -0500 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 In-Reply-To: <45D5634A.7B0A627C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214155923.02f82dd0@mail.degnanco.net> <45D5330C.9000301@notms.net> <45D5634A.7B0A627C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45D58AB1.2060207@notms.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >>B. Degnan wrote: >> >> >>>Are the programs from the SWTPc 6800 interchangeable with the Altair >>>680? Is there a good web reference that compares these two? >>> >>> > >I always kind of wondered why MITS bothered to produce the 680. Given the >timing of it after the SWTP 6800 and their own Altair, it seemed more like a >backwards step. Just trying to take market share away from SWTP perhaps? > > > ISTR the mits 680 was advertised before the SWTPC was. The design must have been underway at the same time as the SWTPC. I don't think it was built to under cut SWTPC. In that time frame no one knew what processor would come out on top. Hedging your bet was pretty common. I've often wondered why the 680 ran at such a slow speed. I find it hard to believe 500khz was the design target when 2mhz parts were available. The speed, the lack of option boards and software tells me MITS was never serious about the 680. joe lang From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Feb 16 06:26:22 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:26:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mac KVM adapters on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <45D42257.10886.23ABFC35@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: I have three Belkin F1D080 Omniview PS/2 MAC Adapters on Ebay, item #110092462075. They allow you to use a PS/2 type keyboard and mouse on older ADB equipped Macs, as well as a VGA/SVGA monitor. They also work on Apple IIGS systems, as long as your monitor can sync to 15KHz. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fryers at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 06:48:53 2007 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:48:53 +0000 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey All, On 14/02/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Feb 2007 at 14:27, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > > I bought two front panels from some type of computer from ebay for the > > switches and lights. After receiving them, I find they are too neat to > > tear apart. They were said to come from a telephone company central > > office. Does anyone recognize these? I can't find any names on them. > > I'm sure that someone will recognize this, but I don't think it's a > from a telco CO. This looks more like a triple-redundant setup for > some sort of mission-critical application (nuclear reactor control?). > The indicator lamps labeled "SURVIVOR" and "BACKUP" as well as > "EXCHANGE FILL" would seem to bear this out as well as the alarm > resets. I would agree. It smells as though it is part of a SCADA/control system of some sort. Honeywell was the first thing that came to mind but I have only seem a small amount of Honeywell control gear - so could be completely wrong. It could also be from a Harris machine. I have no idea when Honeywell or Harris started producing control systems so the dates may invalidate everything I have typed so far. > Incandescent lamps instead of LEDs would probably put this in the > 1960s-early 70s, maybe? This was my initial assessment based on the way the wiring looms are tied. Since, the eagle eyed Jim has pointed out the inspetion date of 68. My 2c worth. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 16 08:11:20 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:11:20 -0600 Subject: paper tape ebay $4 deal? References: Message-ID: <006a01c751d4$580779b0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard Lynch wrote... > My box contained oiled tape as well - it reeks of the smell, and has > "oiled" > stamped on the outside. I emailed jeffking asking if he had any unoiled > and > he responded no it was all the same (?) My box isn't the white "Singer" box pictured in the ad, just a plain brown box. It is not stamped "oiled", nor are there any other markings on it at all. Most strange! Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 16 09:00:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:00:57 -0600 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> <89024.11499.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45D5C729.4030107@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: > I would agree. It smells as though it is part of a SCADA/control > system of some sort. Honeywell was the first thing that came to mind > but I have only seem a small amount of Honeywell control gear - so > could be completely wrong. I'm surprised that there are no recognisable manufacturer names on any of it though if it were from one of the bigger companies. Of course the number of remembered systems from the 60s and 70s is probably a very small fraction of the total machines produced... The panels do hint at something reasonably complex, though - so possibly power station or something military? > This was my initial assessment based on the way the wiring looms are > tied. Since, the eagle eyed Jim has pointed out the inspetion date of > 68. Certainly in the UK telcos were pretty "backward" [1] (in computing terms) around that time - I get the impression that things in the US were similar. In other words, telco seems unlikely (possibly someone just saw the word "exchange" and made assumptions? :) [1] If it ain't broke don't fix it and all that, though. There's absolutely nothing wrong with *not* using a computer for something :-) cheers Jules From classiccmp at eco.li Fri Feb 16 09:15:47 2007 From: classiccmp at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:15:47 +0000 Subject: 'Pong to Playstation' exhibition at the Museum of Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070216151547.GR17748@hades.eco.li> On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 09:27:00AM +0000, Simon Webb wrote: > 35 years of working computer games consoles will be starring in a new > exhibition at the Museum of Computing in Swindon. The exhibition charts > the machines, the companies and the games characters that are now part of > gaming history. The exhibition is open daily, is free of charge and runs > until early August 2007. > > Throughout the exhibition there will be a number of hands-on machines > allowing adults to relive their youth and children to play classic games > that people still rave about today. The original Super Mario, Sonic the > Hedgehog and Space Invaders are just some of the games available on > original 1980?s machines. Is this anything like the Game On exhibition that's still on at the Science Museum? (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/gameon/abouttheexhibition.asp) Dan -- "If I am elected, the concrete barriers around the WHITE HOUSE will be replaced by tasteful foam replicas of ANN MARGARET!" From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 16 09:16:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:16:09 -0800 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far Message-ID: <45D5CAB9.8080803@bitsavers.org> > I don't know if I'll be able to get hold of any > software or docs yet. Docs should be on bitsavers. I should have disc images for the major releases of XDE (the Mesa development environment) and most releases of Interlisp-D. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 16 09:23:33 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:23:33 -0800 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far Message-ID: <45D5CC75.2030101@bitsavers.org> > Wow! Never seen a pile of Xerox stuff like that in Ohio... Ohio State used a bunch. The old Interlisp-D mailing list (which was gatewayed to usenet as comp.sys.xerox) was run by Arun Welch at OSU. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 09:34:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:34:50 -0500 Subject: Best rescue I've had in the hobby so far In-Reply-To: <45D5CC75.2030101@bitsavers.org> References: <45D5CC75.2030101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2/16/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > Wow! Never seen a pile of Xerox stuff like that in Ohio... > > Ohio State used a bunch. The old Interlisp-D mailing list (which > was gatewayed to usenet as comp.sys.xerox) was run by Arun Welch > at OSU. Hmm... I know Arun. I must not have visited him at work during that timeframe. I remember Pyramids, Sun3s, even osu-eddie, the VAX-11/780, but I don't remember any Xerox machines. -ethan From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Feb 16 10:14:11 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:14:11 -0600 Subject: HP 1000 E Series on Govliq. In-Reply-To: <200702151801.l1FI11wu009121@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702151801.l1FI11wu009121@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:01 -0600 2/15/07, Richard wrote: > > Look at photo number 7. Looks like an HP 1000 E Series machine. Too much >> other stuff in the lot though. >> >> Bob >> > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1124213&convertTo=USD > >That's one of those wiggy lots where I don't quite trust govliq. The >picture and lot description list HP 1000, but its not in the lot >manifest. > >Anyone near San Antonio, TX want to check it out? I'm in San Antonio, and I'll have an opportunity to do that on Wednesday, 21-Feb. Email if you are interested in having me do so. I know nothing about HP 1000 machines, so I'll need lots of "look-for-this" type information if I'm to be of much use. -- Mark, 210-379-4635 --------- >you don't have to control EVERYTHING. you can let things happen >and then merge the streams. there is elegance in simplicity. - Arthur Leung, 2006 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 16 11:06:55 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:06:55 -0800 Subject: pdp11 msdp tape image Message-ID: <45D5E4AF.5090209@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/BB-FF990-MC_CZZI0O0_MSDPV2_88.tap.gz fortunately, there was only one other bidder. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 16 11:56:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:56:52 -0800 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 In-Reply-To: <45D5634A.7B0A627C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214155923.02f82dd0@mail.degnanco.net>, <45D5634A.7B0A627C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45D57FE4.27145.AC9C9F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Feb 2007 at 23:54, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I always kind of wondered why MITS bothered to produce the 680. Given the > timing of it after the SWTP 6800 and their own Altair, it seemed more like a > backwards step. Just trying to take market share away from SWTP perhaps? I recall that my impression about the MITS 680 was that it was aimed at a lower-budget market than the 8800. They always seemed sort of lukewarm about it--I don't think they thought that SWTPc 6800 offered any serious competition to the 8800. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 16 11:57:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:57:16 -0700 Subject: pdp11 msdp tape image In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:06:55 -0800. <45D5E4AF.5090209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45D5E4AF.5090209 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > fortunately, there was only one other bidder. If its docs or software, I don't bid against Al Kossow knowing I'll reap the benefits later anyway :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 16 12:17:17 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:17:17 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Selling my PDP-11/83 and various spares.. Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:35:50 +0900 Groups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp11 From: Tim Sneddon Subject: Selling my PDP-11/83 and various spares... Id: <45d4fdf3$0$16270$88260bb3 at free.teranews.com> ======== All, I have to move house and unfortunately the new place doesn't have enough room f or my PDP-11/83 and all my other junk. Over the next week or so I will be putting up whatever I I think might sell on eBay. You can see the current list at: http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZtesneddonQQhtZ-1 Hopefully that URL will work for everyone else :-) I have split up the system into parts as I can't imagine too many people would want to ship the entire machine, anywhere. There are also some spares and as I disassem ble my MicroVAX 3400 and VAX 4000/200 more Q-BUS parts will become available. Once again I'm only selling this equipment because I don't have a choice. I wou ld like to give it away, but I am also getting married soon and every little bit helps. Hopefully this gear will find it's way to a good home. Regards, Tim. PS. Apologies for the cross posting. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 12:20:00 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:20:00 -0800 Subject: pdp11 msdp tape image In-Reply-To: <45D5E4AF.5090209@bitsavers.org> References: <45D5E4AF.5090209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702161020o3eac891as89f2904a3636cbab@mail.gmail.com> On 2/16/07, Al Kossow wrote: > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/BB-FF990-MC_CZZI0O0_MSDPV2_88.tap.gz > Multicast Source Discovery Protocol? What's it do? Good info link somewhere? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 16 12:45:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:45:33 -0800 Subject: Help to identify a computer? In-Reply-To: References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45D58B4D.32617.AF65EE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2007 at 12:48, Simon Fryer wrote: > I would agree. It smells as though it is part of a SCADA/control > system of some sort. Honeywell was the first thing that came to mind > but I have only seem a small amount of Honeywell control gear - so > could be completely wrong. TRW was the vendor that came to my mind, but there were a bunch of them in the 60's. L&N, Foxboro, Bailey, Westinghouse, GE as well as Honeywell (and possibly Moore) all had computerized process-control of some sort. That there is no nameplate fits in with SCADA/process control installations. Usually, this stuff was rack-mounted and built-to-fit the installation. The redundancy would probably put it no earlier than about 1967; I'm not aware of earlier redundant systems, but then, the history of SCADA and process control computers is pretty scanty. But it seems that most of the earlier process control applications used single general-purpose computers, such as IBM 1800s and 1710s. And, as far as I know, no one collects these industrial artifacts. Or so my failing memory tells me. :) Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Feb 16 13:21:19 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:21:19 -0800 Subject: pdp11 msdp tape image Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C409@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Richard wrote: Al Kossow writes: > fortunately, there was only one other bidder. If its docs or software, I don't bid against Al Kossow knowing I'll reap the benefits later anyway :) --------------------- Likewise. But I also ask Al when something comes up and he isn't bidding, in case he missed it. Usually, it means he didn't bid because he already has it. I try to buy what I can and give it to him for the archives. That helps lower his expenses. Finally, I never sell any documents or tapes until Al has a chance to add them to his archives. He has first dibs on anything in my collection. When someone is doing so much to benefit the entire hobby, they should be supported in any way possible. Billy From marvin at rain.org Fri Feb 16 05:50:03 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:50:03 +0000 Subject: String Logic Message-ID: <45D59A6B.15A42D34@rain.org> I was listing some books on VCM, and ran across a mechanical EXCLUSIVE OR demonstration photo using string. I had never seen or heard of such a thing before and thought it was very cool! The book is Computer Hardware Theory, and a jpg of the string XOR picture is at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/strngxor.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 16 15:30:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:30:18 -0800 Subject: String Logic In-Reply-To: <45D59A6B.15A42D34@rain.org> References: <45D59A6B.15A42D34@rain.org> Message-ID: <45D5B1EA.22088.B8D341E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2007 at 11:50, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I was listing some books on VCM, and ran across a mechanical EXCLUSIVE OR > demonstration photo using string. I had never seen or heard of such a thing > before and thought it was very cool! The book is Computer Hardware Theory, and a > jpg of the string XOR picture is at: > > http://www.rain.org/~marvin/strngxor.jpg How about a 4-bit adder powered by water? http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~paulo/courses/howmake/mlfabfinalproject.h tm Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 16 15:53:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:53:08 -0600 Subject: String Logic In-Reply-To: <45D59A6B.15A42D34@rain.org> References: <45D59A6B.15A42D34@rain.org> Message-ID: <45D627C4.2090401@yahoo.co.uk> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I was listing some books on VCM, and ran across a mechanical EXCLUSIVE OR > demonstration photo using string. I had never seen or heard of such a thing > before and thought it was very cool! The book is Computer Hardware Theory, and a > jpg of the string XOR picture is at: Excellent - thanks! My brain's having an off-day, but that design actually "feels" a little over-complex - or were requirements placed on what mechanical devices other than string could be used? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 16 16:31:53 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:31:53 -0700 Subject: Olson 8080 S-100 info? Message-ID: Hi, A coworker has this old S-100 based machine (date codes indicate 1977 or 1978) for which he has no docs: The cabinet has "Olson" on the front and the label on the back gives the part number as NP-210. The CPU card is a BYTE MPU C1000-1001. There is a serial/parallel card: Solid State Music IO-4. All the chips have been removed from the sockets on this card :-(. There are also 3 cards of memory on the machine, mostly fully populated. There is a nice set of lights and toggle switches on the front panel. The front panel card connects directly to the bus and has a ribbon cable that connects to the CPU card. (Was it common on S-100 bus based systems to have a front panel that was a card attached to the bus?) My guess is that there's a boot PROM on the front panel card (there are two PROM sockets on the CPU card that are empty) and that this is debouncing the toggle switches and whatnot and controlling the LEDs. I told him I'd ask around for information on the boot PROM and the cards in his system. Can any of you S-100 fans help me out here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri Feb 16 16:38:59 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:38:59 +0100 Subject: SGI Crimson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13810253492.20070216233859@g-lenerz.de> Thursday, February 15, 2007, 2:54:18 PM, you wrote: > I appear to have misplaced, or accidentally given > away my SGI Crimson keyboard and mouse. Actually no problem. Even if you don't want to go the terminal route there is still the apparently fairly well documented keyboard and mouse interface to use. Here is a hack for using PS/2 devices on an SGI Indigo, the underlying technology should be the same for IRIS 4D Crimson. The main difference is the connector style and the manufacturer of the keyboard/mouse set. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From mail at g-lenerz.de Fri Feb 16 16:40:11 2007 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:40:11 +0100 Subject: SGI Crimson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1242011431.20070216234011@g-lenerz.de> Thursday, February 15, 2007, 2:54:18 PM, you wrote: [snip] Sorry to bother again... but I think I forgot to paste the URL: http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 16 17:27:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:27:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9815 (was Re : prn plotters) In-Reply-To: <45D56104.5F781CA9@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 15, 7 11:45:11 pm Message-ID: > > I opened it up and the 7 ROM chips are pretty obvious, I must have > seen them before. The 6800 is marked only with HP's house number, so I'm > guessing I read something somewhere that told me it was a 6800 and left me It certainly is a 6800... The other 40 pin chip, BTW, is a 6821 (or maybe a 6820, a PIA anyhow). The 16 port lines of that PIA are used as a 12 bit output-only data bus and 4 select lines. The latter are decoded by the '154 on the keyboard/display PCB and select things like the tape control circuit, printer, display, keyboard, output ports (for the peripheral slots) and so on. Input from the peripherlas (internal and external) is via an 8 bit input data bus (which also carries the data from ROMs in the I/O modules) to a cvouple of /257 muxes on the CPU board. The memoery map is a little odd in that the 6821 is mapped as the first 4 locaionss, then RAM (and obviously ROM at the top of the memory space, to get the reset vector, etc). Address line A15 from the CPU is not used, the memory space is effectively 32K bytes. There is some logic in the fact that the PIA is at the bottom of the memory map (rather than in the spcace ebtween ROM and RAM) in that said PIA can then be accessed using the page 0 addressing instrucitons, which are shorter and faster than ones specifying the full 16 bit addess. The PIA is, of course, used a lot in the I/O routines. > > I've had my 9815 totally apart, of course. If you're tempted to do the > > same, can I recmend against dismantling the keyboard. For one thing the > > PCB is held down by around 100 timy screws. And when you get the PCB off, > > the keycpas fall out and are a right pain to get back. Don't ask.... > > On the unit I have ~ 9 of every 10 of those tiny screws is instead a push-pin > inserted into the plastic, so the keyboard isn't about to come apart without a > high likelihood of breaking things. I'd rather have the screws, for cleaning > and potential repairs. All the ones I've seen (and the 'chicklet' style 9825 keyboard [1]) have had all screws, fortunately. [1] My 9825 has the full-travel keyboard, but my 9831 (electrically the same machine, but with BASIC, not HPL, in ROM) has the chicklet keyboard. > > > Suffice it to day I had to send a panic e-mail to a couple of lists > > asking for the order of keycaps in part of the keyboard... > > (.. or power it up, press the keys and find out what they do..) Err, it's a 9815. It has those conenctor blocks sandwiched between the PCBs, so you can't conenct things together (easily) without almost fully assembling the machine. Something I'd rather no have to keep on doing... I learnt my lesson. I now make a diagram of the key locations before removing any screws -tony From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 21:59:20 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:59:20 -0500 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" In-Reply-To: <45D50AD3.5080801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> <45D4E7AF.2000207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0702151729x15253084k265c3a432c9c4494@mail.gmail.com> <45D50AD3.5080801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4affc5e0702161959h37f9c12aq6e639ce13810cc0c@mail.gmail.com> On 15/02/07, woodelf wrote: > Well on dial up that will be about 3 days for me for the lot. Thanks to someone (my GF :-) that knows all the tricks of pdfs, the scans are now actually quite small - 209k for the biggest. I've put them on my home server, so please be gentle :-) https://fornost.dyndns.org/ Joe From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 16 23:01:06 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:01:06 -0700 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0702161959h37f9c12aq6e639ce13810cc0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0702151347k47312d18h2248d55827687c5f@mail.gmail.com> <45D4E7AF.2000207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0702151729x15253084k265c3a432c9c4494@mail.gmail.com> <45D50AD3.5080801@jetnet.ab.ca> <4affc5e0702161959h37f9c12aq6e639ce13810cc0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D68C12.8010507@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Thanks to someone (my GF :-) that knows all the tricks of pdfs, the > scans are now actually quite small - 209k for the biggest. I've put > them on my home server, so please be gentle :-) READ READ READ -- DOWNLOAD DOWNLOAD -- READ READ ... :) > Joe Well better than -HACK HACK HACK - I guess. Looking at all the ads it seems you were expected to have 12K BASIC on the POLY 88 with only 5 slots -- CPU , Display , Basic on ROM , Two memory cards. The Altair 680 looks to be much the same. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 16 23:18:15 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:18:15 -0800 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: <45D58B4D.32617.AF65EE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <45D58B4D.32617.AF65EE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45D69017.9060704@sbcglobal.net> Another auction that would cost a fortune to ship across the country. Still, someone close might be able to scrap some good parts from it along with the tape drives. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1131916&convertTo=USD Bob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Feb 17 10:57:28 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:57:28 -0800 Subject: Classic computer ads from the October 1976 issue of "Popular Electronics" In-Reply-To: <45D68C12.8010507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >Joachim Thiemann wrote: > >>Thanks to someone (my GF :-) that knows all the tricks of pdfs, the >>scans are now actually quite small - 209k for the biggest. I've put >>them on my home server, so please be gentle :-) > >READ READ READ -- DOWNLOAD DOWNLOAD -- READ READ ... :) >>Joe > >Well better than -HACK HACK HACK - I guess. >Looking at all the ads it seems you were expected to have 12K BASIC >on the POLY 88 with only 5 slots -- CPU , Display , Basic on ROM , >Two memory cards. The Altair 680 looks to be much the same. Hi I don't think the 12K BASIC for the Poly88 was ever in ROM. It was always cassette based as far as I know. I got a DynaByte memory board kit with 16K of RAM that I latter expanded to 48K ( 16K DRAM chips ). I did have a BASIC in ROM but that was PaloAlto Tiny BASIC. The ROM's were all on the CPU board ( three 2708's ). There was also a floppy controller as well ( hard sectored ). one could put all the needed ROM on the CPU card. No need to fill the slots. The Bus could be expanded if needed. I've since collected a bunch of cassette based software, including and assembler for the Poly 88. It was a simple line editor and assembler in one load. I have a number of applications as well. If anyone is interested, I can send it in an image format. If your Poly 88 has a serial port ( not hard to add if it doesn't ), I wrote a down loader so that one can save things to tape. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 17 11:20:24 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:20:24 -0700 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:18:15 -0800. <45D69017.9060704@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <45D69017.9060704 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > Another auction that would cost a fortune to ship across the country. > Still, someone close might be able to scrap some > good parts from it along with the tape drives. > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1131916&convertTo=USD What uses a Kennedy tape drive? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 17 11:34:14 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:34:14 -0600 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq References: Message-ID: <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > What uses a Kennedy tape drive? That's like saying "What uses signetics chips?". Answer in both cases - "Pretty much everything". Jay From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Feb 17 10:33:25 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:33:25 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217103136.0be29980@localhost> Thanks very much to Don, Paxton, Dave, and particularly Glen S for the list of links. I'm awaiting delivery and hoping it turns out to be all it was advertised as. The traces on the photos looked clean and bright, so hopefully it's in good shape. -T At 03:18 AM 2/16/2007 -0500, you wrote: >On Feb 15, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>>>I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four >>>>plug- ins for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 >>>>7CTIN and >>>>7B53A. >>> >>> Yes, that was a pretty decent deal, especially if you don't have >>>to pay to ship it. Assuming it's functional of course. They've been >>>known to go for less, especially if they're all beaten up, but if >>>it's in good shape a 7904 can easily fetch $299. >> >>I went back to them and countered with $240. I won the deal and >>will pay $240 plus fiddy-two bucks to ship it. Woohoo! > > SCORE! :-) > >>I'm wondering if there's a list somewhere of just what plugins I >>can drool over and/or search for. I'm not having any luck phrasing >>my search properly so far. Like maybe a channel input amp that will >>give me better bandwidth so I can do some VHF/UHF with it. I hear >>that the 7A26 is good up to 200 mHz? Is that right? > > I see others have already answered these questions...So I'll just >reiterate: SCORE! > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > > [Faith] Many people want the benefits of the church, but choose not to be of benefit to the church. -- Author Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Feb 17 11:05:32 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:05:32 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <45D4FB37.8070808@mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> At 04:30 PM 2/15/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Tom Peters wrote: >>At 12:28 PM 2/15/2007 -0500, you wrote: >>>On Feb 14, 2007, at 7:34 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>>>I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug- ins >>>>for $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and >>>>7B53A. >>> >>> Yes, that was a pretty decent deal, especially if you don't have >>>to pay to ship it. Assuming it's functional of course. They've been >>>known to go for less, especially if they're all beaten up, but if >>>it's in good shape a 7904 can easily fetch $299. >> >>I went back to them and countered with $240. I won the deal and will pay >>$240 plus fiddy-two bucks to ship it. Woohoo! >> >>>>Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a >>>>curve tracer. >>> >>> Umm...the curve tracer (7CT1N probably) came with it?? That >>>would've been a *serious* score then. That plugin alone typically >>>goes for $150-300. >>> >>>>Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? >>> >>> Yes, they're all over the place. There are some really neat ones >>>available for 7000-series scopes, too...Differential amplifiers, >>>logic analyzers, spectrum analyzers, the aforementioned curve tracer, >>>all sorts of stuff. It's a fantastic platform. >> >>I'm wondering if there's a list somewhere of just what plugins I can >>drool over and/or search for. I'm not having any luck phrasing my search >>properly so far. Like maybe a channel input amp that will give me better >>bandwidth so I can do some VHF/UHF with it. I hear that the 7A26 is good >>up to 200 mHz? Is that right? > >Yup, correct. Go to http://www.caip.rutgers.edu/~kahrs/testeq/7000.html >for tables and pix of 7000 series stuff. Cool! Thanks. >The 7A29 is a single channel 1GHz plugin, 7B92A or 7B10/7B15 timebases. Never having owned a decent scope before, please help me out a little. Well, I do have a 60mhz Hickok that's really beat up. If I want to get up to 500 MHz (70 cm is 400+ right?) I could try to locate a 7A29, or maybe there's another cheeper one? That's question number 1. 2. Sounds like one definitely has to have a better timebase plugin, you seem to be implying that, to make use of the bandwidth of the 7A29, right? Which one, you list three. Or any of the above? >The S4/7S11/7T11 combo is cool if you want a10+GHz sampling capability. Yikes, I'm not sure I would know what to do with 10 GHz capability. >I have a 7104 with 7A29s, 7B10/15 and S4/7S11/7T11 and it is pretty cool >70s technology. > >Don North >AK6DN [Government]"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session." (Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 17 12:07:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:07:50 -0700 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:34:14 -0600. <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > > What uses a Kennedy tape drive? > > That's like saying "What uses signetics chips?". > > Answer in both cases - "Pretty much everything". OK, I'm just not familiar with 9-track drives in the sense of who manufactures the guts that everyone uses. So were these used on PDP-11s? IBM machines? Control Data? You say pretty much everything, but I've never heard of Kennedy drives before. Is that because everyone else bought them from Kennedy and then OEMed them with their own label on them? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 17 12:33:16 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:33:16 -0600 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq References: Message-ID: <001001c752c2$19e43df0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > OK, I'm just not familiar with 9-track drives in the sense of who > manufactures the guts that everyone uses. The 9-tracks I know of that were very commonly oem'd was Kennedy, Cipher, Wangtek, and M4 Data. > So were these used on PDP-11s? IBM machines? Control Data? Kennedy and Cipher are probably the most common - I've certainly seen them on DEC machines. As to IBM & Control Data, that's not my area so I don't know. IBM was fond of making their own stuff from scratch. HP (in the period I'm familiar with) bought bits from folks then put them together themselves. > You say pretty much everything, but I've never heard of Kennedy drives > before. Is that because everyone else bought them from Kennedy and > then OEMed them with their own label on them? Kennedy and Cipher are probably the two biggest tape drives as to volume of units made. They were uniquitous. While they were OEM'd under other labels, they were still usually called Kennedy & Cipher units in the circles I'm familiar with. Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 17 13:25:39 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:25:39 -0800 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq Message-ID: <45D756B3.3030903@bitsavers.org> > OK, I'm just not familiar with 9-track drives in the sense of who > manufactures the guts that everyone uses. OEM drive mfgs 60's 70's 80's 90's Ampex--->? Dymec------>HP------------------> Kennedy------------------------->Bought by Shugart CDC------------------------->Laser Magnetic Storage Digidata---------------------> Wangco-->Cipher-----------> PEC---->Pertec------------> Qualstar---> M4 Data----> HP 7970 drives look a LOT like Kennedy 9100's Lots of others primarily in mainframes (STC, Telex,...) Those two drives in the pics are fairly old incremental transports. From drb at msu.edu Sat Feb 17 13:39:32 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:39:32 -0500 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:34:14 CST.) <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200702171939.l1HJdWiU008979@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What uses a Kennedy tape drive? Among others, Prime sold rebadged Kennedy drives for a while, hence the formatterless 9100 in my garage. De From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 17 14:06:09 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:06:09 -0500 Subject: Star 8010 = Alto III ? In-Reply-To: <200702171939.l1HJdWiU008979@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0@BILLING> <200702171939.l1HJdWiU008979@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <45D76031.4010203@atarimuseum.com> Just curious - is the Star 8010 really the Alto III, I know the Star was delayed over and over again and the Alto III had to go toe to toe with the Xerox 850 wordprocessor only to lose to it in proposals. What I'm curious about is this disconnect where I don't clearly see if the Alto III ever did finally make it out, to be the Star 8010 or if the Star 8010 is what the Star group has originally set out to produce or were there some Alto III's ever produced? Curt From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 17 14:13:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:13:15 -0800 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: <45D756B3.3030903@bitsavers.org> References: <45D756B3.3030903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D6F15B.25109.106D0079@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2007 at 11:25, Al Kossow wrote: > > OK, I'm just not familiar with 9-track drives in the sense of who > > manufactures the guts that everyone uses. > > OEM drive mfgs > > 60's 70's 80's 90's > > Ampex--->? > Dymec------>HP------------------> > Kennedy------------------------->Bought by Shugart > CDC------------------------->Laser Magnetic Storage > Digidata---------------------> > Wangco-->Cipher-----------> > PEC---->Pertec------------> > Qualstar---> > M4 Data----> ...and there's Fujitsu. Used by various OEMs, including Sun. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Feb 17 14:32:35 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:32:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, Richard wrote: > You say pretty much everything, but I've never heard of Kennedy drives > before. Is that because everyone else bought them from Kennedy and > then OEMed them with their own label on them? Hughes used Kennedy 9100 drives in the AN/FYQ-93 system, which replaced SAGE. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 17 14:41:51 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:41:51 -0800 Subject: Alto III Message-ID: <45D7688F.2050808@bitsavers.org> There is no written documentation I have ever come across that there was ever anything called an Alto III. The only follow on to the Alto II was the Alto II XM, which added bank switched memory and a larger writable control store. Alto II was a redesign of some of the Alto I for manufacturability done in El Segundo. Chuck Thacker did the "Dolphin", which was the first Xerox OIS workstation. The 8010 is an adaptation of a paper design that Butler Lampson did called "Wildflower" The next machine Chuck worked on after the Dolphin was the Dorado. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 14:46:23 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:46:23 -0800 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> <45D4FB37.8070808@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> Message-ID: > If I want to get up to 500 MHz (70 cm is 400+ right?) I could try to locate > a 7A29, or maybe there's another cheeper one? That's question number 1. > > 2. Sounds like one definitely has to have a better timebase plugin, you > seem to be implying that, to make use of the bandwidth of the 7A29, right? > Which one, you list three. Or any of the above? I suggest you try to locate a older tek catalog from the 1980s. They are excellent sources of information. As far as amplifier plug ins, you could use a 7A19 also as they go to 600 MHz. 7A29 DC to 1 GHz 7A19 DC to 600 MHz 7A24 DC to 400 MHz Dual Trace All these are 50 ohm input by my 1987 catalog. Time Bases are the 7B80 Triggering to 400 MHz Basic Delayed Time Base 7B85 Triggering to 400 MHz Delta Delaying Time Base 7B92A Triggering to 500 MHz Dual Time Base, Delayed and Delaying I think the 7B85 is the most common and the most sought after time base. Another fun thing about the Tektronix catalogs is their original 1987 asking prices 7904A Mainframe $10,115 (no plugins) 7A29 $3,325 7A19 $2,895 7A24 $2,655 7B80 $1,660 7B85 $1,940 This plug was in high demand on the used market 7B92A $3,745 7CT1N $1,785 7A26 $2,350 This plug was in high demand on the used market 7A18 $1,465 7B53A $1,860 This plug was in high demand on the used market When I was selling Tek used equipment 10-15 years ago I felt lucky to get 10% of those prices. I bet it is a lot cheaper now. Nice scopes. I regretted getting rid of my 7603. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 17 14:51:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:51:35 -0700 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:46:23 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > I suggest you try to locate a older tek catalog from the 1980s. They > are excellent sources of information. The Boat Anchor Manual Archive has on its Tektronix page the catalogs for 1959, 1969, 1977, 1982, 1985, 1989, 1993, and 1998. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 15:05:30 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:05:30 -0800 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702171305t6c0b7ac1p7c0b591b192769b4@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/07, Tom Peters wrote: > > Hey all, > > I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug-ins for > $299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and 7B53A. > > Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a curve > tracer. > > Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? > > -Tom (my real name) Peters. > > > > > > [Philosophy] "I shall cheerfully bear the reproach of having > descended below the dignity of history." --Lord Macaulay. > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User > 385531 > > > > > hey, since the listing should be over by now (since you said you won it)...perhaps you wouldn't mind sending us a link to the listing so we can all drool over exactly what you got? :P :D :) From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 17 15:15:53 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:15:53 -0500 Subject: Alto III In-Reply-To: <45D7688F.2050808@bitsavers.org> References: <45D7688F.2050808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D77089.80706@atarimuseum.com> Thanks Al... I thought Kearns (then CEO of Xerox) had received the Alto III proposal. I wonder if there is anything still floating around out there that maybe one of the Xerox guys may still have. So the Alto II XM did in hw what "Ooze" did in software? Just to think, if Star or a more commercialized version of the Alto could've made it out just a few years earlier, what things would be like today. I wonder if we'd all be picking on Xerox instead of MS.... though, I don't think there would've been the BsoD ;-) Though we may have all had color laser printers on our desktops 10 years earlier if the Proto color laser had been perfected. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > > There is no written documentation I have ever come across that > there was ever anything called an Alto III. > > The only follow on to the Alto II was the Alto II XM, which added > bank switched memory and a larger writable control store. > > Alto II was a redesign of some of the Alto I for manufacturability > done in El Segundo. > > Chuck Thacker did the "Dolphin", which was the first Xerox OIS > workstation. The 8010 is an adaptation of a paper design that > Butler Lampson did called "Wildflower" > > The next machine Chuck worked on after the Dolphin was the > Dorado. > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Feb 17 16:06:19 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:06:19 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> <45D4FB37.8070808@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160436.0c57db58@localhost> At 12:46 PM 2/17/2007 -0800, you wrote: >>If I want to get up to 500 MHz (70 cm is 400+ right?) I could try to locate >>a 7A29, or maybe there's another cheeper one? That's question number 1. >> >>2. Sounds like one definitely has to have a better timebase plugin, you >>seem to be implying that, to make use of the bandwidth of the 7A29, right? >>Which one, you list three. Or any of the above? > >I suggest you try to locate a older tek catalog from the 1980s. They >are excellent sources of information. > >As far as amplifier plug ins, you could use a 7A19 also as they go to 600 MHz. > >7A29 DC to 1 GHz >7A19 DC to 600 MHz >7A24 DC to 400 MHz Dual Trace > >All these are 50 ohm input by my 1987 catalog. > >Time Bases are the >7B80 Triggering to 400 MHz Basic Delayed Time Base >7B85 Triggering to 400 MHz Delta Delaying Time Base >7B92A Triggering to 500 MHz Dual Time Base, Delayed and Delaying > >I think the 7B85 is the most common and the most sought after time base. > >Another fun thing about the Tektronix catalogs is their original 1987 >asking prices > >7904A Mainframe $10,115 (no plugins) >7A29 $3,325 >7A19 $2,895 >7A24 $2,655 >7B80 $1,660 >7B85 $1,940 This plug was in high demand on the used market >7B92A $3,745 > >7CT1N $1,785 >7A26 $2,350 This plug was in high demand on the used market >7A18 $1,465 >7B53A $1,860 This plug was in high demand on the used market > >When I was selling Tek used equipment 10-15 years ago I felt lucky to >get 10% of those prices. I bet it is a lot cheaper now. >Nice scopes. I regretted getting rid of my 7603. >Paxton Wow Pax, very juicy and flavorful information. Thanks! [Love] An absence, the decline of a dinner invitation, an unintentional coldness, can accomplish more than all the cosmetics and beautiful dresses in the world. --Marcel Proust (1871-1922) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Feb 17 16:08:29 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:08:29 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702171305t6c0b7ac1p7c0b591b192769b4@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> At 01:05 PM 2/17/2007 -0800, you wrote: >On 2/14/07, Tom Peters wrote: >> >>Hey all, >> >>I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug-ins for >>$299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and 7B53A. >> >>Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a curve >>tracer. >> >>Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? >> >>-Tom (my real name) Peters. >hey, since the listing should be over by now (since you said you won >it)...perhaps you wouldn't mind sending us a link to the listing so we can >all drool over exactly what you got? :P :D :) Sure, absolutely. The item number originally posted for $299 has been lost. The relist at my price is below. Try not to drool on the knobs- they get slippery and hard to adjust ~(:-) that's me with a feather in my cap. Item number: 330089349032 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330089349032&rd=1&rd=1 'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From useddec at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 16:34:48 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:34:48 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> Message-ID: <624966d60702171434t1cad957cuee9786d730229f7@mail.gmail.com> I think I have an entra 7904 I could sell, but I'll have to to dig it out to see what plug ins are in it. I have several others I've been thinking of selling, Paul Anderson On 2/17/07, Tom Peters wrote: > > At 01:05 PM 2/17/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >On 2/14/07, Tom Peters wrote: > >> > >>Hey all, > >> > >>I just missed out on a Tek 7904 scope (four trace) with four plug-ins > for > >>$299. Was that a deal? The plugins were 7A26 7A18 7CTIN and 7B53A. > >> > >>Looks like a 500mhz scope, but with plugins good for 200mhz and a curve > >>tracer. > >> > >>Are plugins for that scope readily avaiable and reasonably priced? > >> > >>-Tom (my real name) Peters. > >hey, since the listing should be over by now (since you said you won > >it)...perhaps you wouldn't mind sending us a link to the listing so we > can > >all drool over exactly what you got? :P :D :) > > Sure, absolutely. The item number originally posted for $299 has been > lost. > The relist at my price is below. Try not to drool on the knobs- they get > slippery and hard to adjust ~(:-) that's me with a feather in my cap. > > Item number: 330089349032 > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330089349032&rd=1&rd=1 > > > > > 'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User > 385531 > > > > > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 17 16:36:58 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:36:58 -0500 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070217223658.01ADFBA42C7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > OK, I'm just not familiar with 9-track drives in the sense of who > manufactures the guts that everyone uses. > > So were these used on PDP-11s? IBM machines? Control Data? You would most likely see Kennedys on minicomputers, especially in aftermarket upgrades. PDP-11's, DG's, etc. Other manufacturers made tape drives for IBM's and Mainframes. There was a good amount of crossover between the high-end mini and low-end mainframe peripherals. > You say pretty much everything, but I've never heard of Kennedy drives > before. Is that because everyone else bought them from Kennedy and > then OEMed them with their own label on them? Kennedy was located in Monrovia CA (outside LA) at least in the 70's and 80's. They made not only mini-oriented tape drives, but also hard drives. Very common in the mini world were the "Pertec unformatted" and "Pertec formatted" interfaces, and Kennedy and others used one or the other or both these interfaces with minor variations on most all of their drives from the early 70's onward. Their last models of 9-track drives were the slotloaders and extensively relabeled by everyone. I personally prefer their earlier vacuum-column and swing-arm drives - what's the use of a tape drive unless you can see the reels spinning? :-). Their older drives didn't have embedded microcomputers and are more fun to work on too (and need more work as well!) Tim. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Feb 17 17:40:41 2007 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:40:41 -0800 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070215174622.0e285708@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> Message-ID: <45D79279.9010908@mindspring.com> Tom Peters wrote: > > Never having owned a decent scope before, please help me out a little. > Well, I do have a 60mhz Hickok that's really beat up. > > If I want to get up to 500 MHz (70 cm is 400+ right?) I could try to > locate a 7A29, or maybe there's another cheeper one? That's question > number 1. > > 2. Sounds like one definitely has to have a better timebase plugin, > you seem to be implying that, to make use of the bandwidth of the > 7A29, right? Which one, you list three. Or any of the above? > For my 7104 1GHz scope, I have 2x7A29 for vertical inputs, and a 7B10/7B15 timebase pair for horizontal (standard + delayed sweep). For a 7904A, 2x7A19 is all that is really needed for vertical (it is a single 50ohm input 500MHz amp) plus a 7B92A gives you normal + delayed sweep. This leaves an extra horizontal slot open. 7A19s are usually readily available on eBay, and 7B92As are pretty common as well. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Feb 17 17:40:22 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:40:22 -0000 (GMT) Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D58B4D.32617.AF65EE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com>, <45D58B4D.32617.AF65EE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2162.192.168.0.4.1171755622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, February 16, 2007 18:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Feb 2007 at 12:48, Simon Fryer wrote: > >> I would agree. It smells as though it is part of a SCADA/control >> system of some sort. Honeywell was the first thing that came to mind >> but I have only seem a small amount of Honeywell control gear - so >> could be completely wrong. > One of my customers uses SCADA to control some of their machinery and I had no idea the name itself was that old - what's the history of it? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 17 17:32:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:32:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217104648.00d66468@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Feb 17, 7 11:05:32 am Message-ID: > >The 7A29 is a single channel 1GHz plugin, 7B92A or 7B10/7B15 timebases. It's been a while since I used any 7000-series stuff [1] but IIRC the timebase to look for is the 7B92A. It's a dual timebase, you can use one timebase to delay the other (which is very useful) and it only takes up one slot in the 'scope. [1] There was a 7904 and an assortment of plugins in the lab where I did my Ph.D. I was the only person ever to use it, really, everybody else thought it was very old-fashioned. It was, but it's a darn good 'scope. I'd like one for home in some ways _but_ they are full of custom silicon and Tektronix no longer supply spares. If a chip fails you've got problems... > > Never having owned a decent scope before, please help me out a little.=20 > Well, I do have a 60mhz Hickok that's really beat up. > > If I want to get up to 500 MHz (70 cm is 400+ right?) I could try to loca= > te=20 Well, if you want to look ot the output of a 70 cms transmitter (which is about 430MHz, at least in the UK), you really want to be able to see at least the 3rd harmonic. Which means going up to 1.2GHz+. However, the most useful instrument IMHO for setting up a transmitter is an RF spectrum analyser (then you can see just what you're shoving out out-of-band). Yes, you can get spectrum analyser plug-ins for the 7904 (they have 7Lxx modul numbers, where xx varies with the band they cover), but you want to be sitting down when you hear the price!. > > >The S4/7S11/7T11 combo is cool if you want a10+GHz sampling capability. > Yikes, I'm not sure I would know what to do with 10 GHz capability. I have the 1S1 sampler (and cathode follower probe [2]) in my old 500-seires 'scopes. That give a 1GHz capability, and I have used it (when setting up the local oscillator of a 2m receiver, for example). These sampling modules essentially work by aliasing the signal down into the passband of the 'scope and thus only work for repetitive signals. Fine for looking at a carrier (or local oscillator) signal, not so useful for other things. [2] An active probe with a tiny triode valve inside. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 17 17:21:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:21:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9815 (was Re : prn plotters) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Feb 16, 7 11:27:49 pm Message-ID: I've been looking at some of the manuals... You're right. The plotter interface's ROM contains commands to drive the plotter. The HPIB interface ROM contains the commands to send arbitrary bytes to an HPIB device -- to drive the plotter with the latter would be a lot of owrk. On the other hand the HPIB interface looks quite interesting (it's one I will look out for :-)). The are commands to send/receive the user program ('in internal code' -- presumably the key codes, etc) to an HPIB device. COuld be interesting. Actually, I think there's a similar command in the GPIO (8 bit TTL level parallel interface) ROM, and that one I do have. It appears there was a standard PCB to plug into the calculator I/O slot. It contained the ROM, address decoder to select said ROM, and logic to provide 8 bit input and output ports iwth control lines. This board was used on its own in the GPIO interface (and plotter interface?), and was linked to an extenal box containing 1 or 2 PCBs for the BCD, HPIB and serial itnerfaces. Obviously the ROM contents varied between the interfaces, and in some cases the input latch chip on the board that plugged into the calculator was not fitted, it was bypassed with links. I also looked at the 9872 service manual (www.hpmuseum.net has some interesting stuff). The electronics looked very familiar. The motor driver circuitry, processor circuit, self-test controls, etc are all much the same (but with a different layout, of course) to those in the 7245 that I've worked on. That motor control circuit is ingenious, I spent a long time looking at logic analyser traces, etc, before I figured out what was going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 17 17:45:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:45:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: <20070217223658.01ADFBA42C7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Feb 17, 7 05:36:58 pm Message-ID: > You would most likely see Kennedys on minicomputers, especially > in aftermarket upgrades. PDP-11's, DG's, etc. One of the odder things I've acquired over the years is a tape controller made bu a company called 'Dylon' that has an HPIB host interface. I forget what drive I have hooked up to it, I think it's a Kennedy. The interface is standard Pertec unformatted, so many drives would work. Anyway, the programming maual (I have it, and the service manual with full schematics) gives example programs for the HP9825 desktop calculator (!). For a joke I occe linked it to an HP71B pocket computer via an HP82169 HPIL-HPIB translator. It worked perfectly (of course). Not a lot of use for a 9-track tape drive on a pocket machine, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 17 17:39:38 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:39:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: <45D6F15B.25109.106D0079@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 7 12:13:15 pm Message-ID: > > OEM drive mfgs > > > > 60's 70's 80's 90's > > > > Ampex--->? > > Dymec------>HP------------------> > > Kennedy------------------------->Bought by Shugart > > CDC------------------------->Laser Magnetic Storage > > Digidata---------------------> > > Wangco-->Cipher-----------> > > PEC---->Pertec------------> > > Qualstar---> > > M4 Data----> > > ...and there's Fujitsu. Used by various OEMs, including Sun. Over ehre there was SE Labs (part of EMI?). They certainly made a 9-track 1600bpi unit, I have one on one of my PDP11s. Did Racal Thermionic ever make a 9-track computer tape drive? They made a digital cassette drive called the 'Digidek'. I have one and the service manual, the actuall tape machanism shares parts with the tape mechanism in the HP9830 (and presumably the HP9865) What about Penny and Giles? They made some QUC drives with RS232 interfaces for data logging. Anything larger? And Philips? I can't believe they never made a computer tape drive given that they made computers and were well-experienced in magnetic recording. They certainly made compact-cassette and minicassette data drives. -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 17 18:38:19 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:38:19 -0500 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <2162.192.168.0.4.1171755622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com> <45D32F7A.12451.1BFB0FA@cclist.sydex.com> <45D58B4D.32617.AF65EE6@cclist.sydex.com> <2162.192.168.0.4.1171755622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070218003819.3F571BA42CE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Witchy" wrote: > One of my customers uses SCADA to control some of their machinery and I > had no idea the name itself was that old - what's the history of it? SCADA dates back to at least the late 1930's in the electrical generation and distribution field. The 40's-era equipment I have seen include 807-based carrier transmitter units and receiver units based around dozens to hundreds of 6SN7's. (Today we would call these the modulator and demodulator parts of modems.) Recording done with chart recorders, and centralized computation via integrating meters (visualize as marbles in a barrel and you'd be exactly on.) Get me started and I'll show you how a pinball machine can be converted into a multichannel analyzer :-). Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 17 18:51:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:51:12 -0800 Subject: Two Kennedy tape drives on govliq In-Reply-To: References: <45D6F15B.25109.106D0079@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 7 12:13:15 pm, Message-ID: <45D73280.22121.116B770D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2007 at 23:39, Tony Duell wrote: > And Philips? I can't believe they never made a computer tape drive given > that they made computers and were well-experienced in magnetic recording. > They certainly made compact-cassette and minicassette data drives. And we musn't forget Tandberg, who made some very nice drives. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 17 19:30:32 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:30:32 -0800 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <20070218003819.3F571BA42CE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <2162.192.168.0.4.1171755622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk>, <20070218003819.3F571BA42CE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <45D73BB8.895.118F7836@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2007 at 19:38, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Get me started and I'll show you how a pinball machine can be > converted into a multichannel analyzer :-). It's too bad that no one seems to make a hobby out of collecting old process-control equipment. I helped get me through college by working as an instrumentation technician summers. Really primitive stuff--your basic tools were a portable potentiometer, optical pyrometer and your pocket thermometer--and a pen-cleaning wire. A lot of the stuff was probably from the 20's. L&N Micromax chart recorders/controllers (used a clockspring motor to run the works; basically an automatic clamp galvanometer in a wheatstone bridge), Askania hydraulic controls. Some of the more modern stuff was Brown Electronik (later became part of Honeywell), and L&N Speedomax, using mechanical chopper-stabilized amplifiers--and the very newest stuff was Moore pneumatic. The first non-human square root-extractor unit I ever saw was pneumatic (used to compute flow from differential pressure). Very high-tech in those days. Much of the equipment ran from 25Hz 110v mains power (BIG transformers that didn't hum so much as rattle). Steel mills used to generate their own power by burning coke-oven (producer) gas. For some reason never made clear to me, one of the competing "standards" for AC distribution was 25Hz (both 50 and 110v). The most advanced bit of equipment that I saw at that time was used to measure the dewpoint of the hydrogen reducing atmosphere on the continuous hot-galvanize line. A tiny mirror was cooled by a refrigeration unit and a sample of the atmosphere was directed onto its surface. A phototube measured the degree of fogging. Cheers, Chuck From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Feb 17 19:04:07 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:04:07 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... Message-ID: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> All this talk of Kennedy's reminds me... any chance of connecting old--recent old to old old--Kennedy 9tracks to a PC? Or has anyone taken any surplus 9tracks and run them on PC's? Or, how about a 9track with GPIB/HPIB interface--any with Amigo or SS80 command set? (I really would like to see what I've forgotten on my tapes...) mata jd "I shot an arrow into the air, and it stuck." -- Graffito in Los Angeles From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Feb 17 19:15:39 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:15:39 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller Message-ID: <45D7A8BB.2090300@garlic.com> Here's one that even HP Greeley couldn't help with: Looking for specs and ROMS or ROM images for Xebec Winchester controllers such as those used in the HP 9133A disk. I have the HP manuals and there is not enough info in them. Somewhere I (may still) have DIP switch settings for the board, obtained experimentally. I do not have info in all the jumpers, ROMs, etc. thanks... -- jd Decision maker, n.: The person in your office who was unable to form a task force before the music stopped. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Feb 17 21:00:54 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:00:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, jd wrote: > Or has anyone taken any surplus 9tracks and run them on PC's? Find a HP 7980S or 88780S, or an IBM 9348-012 with a single-ended SCSI interface. Easy connection, works good under Linux. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 17 22:48:33 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:48:33 -0800 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <2162.192.168.0.4.1171755622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk>, <20070218003819.3F571BA42CE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <45D73BB8.895.118F7836@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > coke-oven (producer) gas. For some reason never made clear to me, > one of the competing "standards" for AC distribution was 25Hz (both > 50 and 110v). Didn't the 25 Hz stuff have it's origins in turn-of-the-century electric-train/streetcar technology? ..such established systems then being extended into residential/industrial use in some areas. There were a few 30's-era radios made for 25Hz, distinguished by their oversize power transformers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 17 23:14:22 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:14:22 -0700 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <2162.192.168.0.4.1171755622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk>, <20070218003819.3F571BA42CE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <45D73BB8.895.118F7836@cclist.sydex.com> <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45D7E0AE.8080307@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Didn't the 25 Hz stuff have it's origins in turn-of-the-century > electric-train/streetcar technology? ..such established systems then being > extended into residential/industrial use in some areas. There were a few > 30's-era radios made for 25Hz, distinguished by their oversize power transformers. Lets not forget EDISON promoted DC as well. When you think about it, the RPM of the generator is the limiting factor. You can't have your moving parts move too fast. Or too slow -- hamster powered night light. http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 17 23:26:50 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:26:50 -0600 Subject: xxdp diag libs up Message-ID: <009601c7531d$64a10660$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> A while back I posted that I had some fairly old XXDP+ library RL02 carts and posted listings of the files on them. Several people asked for copies of the images. I finally got around to pulling them in via vtserver. You can get them at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/XXDP/ I also included listings of the directories. Just out of curiousity, what's the best way to tell what version # of xxdp+ I have? I know the one labled 'Disk 8' comes up with CHMDLB0, while the one labled 'olddiag' comes up with CHMDLE0. Can those be tied back to a particular xxdp+ version? Jay From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 17 23:36:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:36:51 -0700 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:51:35 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > The Boat Anchor Manual Archive has on its Tektronix page > the catalogs for > 1959, 1969, 1977, 1982, 1985, 1989, 1993, and 1998. Apparently none of those links are working except the 1959 catalog. I have downloaded the 1982 catalog from them before but they don't have it online anymore. I can upload the 1982 catalog somewhere. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 18 01:38:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:38:12 -0800 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D7E0AE.8080307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca>, <45D7E0AE.8080307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45D791E4.24404.12E01023@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2007 at 22:14, woodelf wrote: > Lets not forget EDISON promoted DC as well. > When you think about it, the RPM of the generator > is the limiting factor. You can't have your moving > parts move too fast. > Or too slow -- hamster powered night light. > http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html Oh, the steel mill had 250VDC distribution, as well as higher voltages for the overhead cranes and welders. I once witnessed a plant electrician mistakenly wire a 120v 60Hz water cooler to 250 VDC. The ensuing meltdown was fun to watch. His boss told him to pack it back up and return it to stores with a tag saying something to the effect that it was a manufacturing defect. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Feb 18 01:39:49 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 01:39:49 -0600 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system Message-ID: <45D802C5.4030006@pacbell.net> This email is short on questions; just a vintage computer putzing report. I do have one question of opinion at the end. I've had a northstar horizon 8/16 system for a year and a half now, but I was able to finally get everything together and a bit of time to get it running. The 8/16 is a normal horizon (in the aluminum cabinet, not wooden), with a beefier power supply. There may be some other mechanical differences, such as many more punchouts in the back. The purpose of the system is to host multiple CPUs running in a S-100 backplane, each with its own local memory, using the Z80 down on the motherboard to act as a server for the shared resources. As the 8/16 name implies, you can have 8b (z80) or 16b (8086) CPUs, or a mix of them. Mine has two Z80 cards, each with 64KB DRAM, in addition to the Z80 on the motherboard and 64KB DRAM that is uses on the S-100 BUS. The box has a single 5.25" floppy and a 30 MB Rodime hard drive (ST506 type interface). The way things are set up in the horizon, you can't boot directly off the hard drive; the usual procedure is to boot the floppy, and the floppy contains a bootstrap to load the OS from the hard disk. I first booted into HDOS from floppy, the hard disk version of NSDOS. It has both non-destructive and destructive disk tests. "LI" shows that there is no meaningful HDOS file system on the drive. Next, I ran only the non-destructive test since one goal is to see what is on the hard disk. HDOS, like NSDOS, has a command for reading arbitrary absolute sectors from the floppy, but it isn't supported on the hard drive -- instead you can load sectors relative to a named file, which doesn't help me here. Next I booted turbodos from floppy. "DIR" shows no meaningful file system on either of the two partitions on the drive. Finally, I'm at an impasse. I assume that this system had *something* on the drive, although I suppose a previous owner did a FORMAT on the drive before passing the system on. It would be easiest for me to just format the drive and install either HDOS, or more likely, TurboDos and get on with it. If I had more time I'd look into finding a mechanism to read the hard drive sector by sector and make a copy, but the reality is I have more projects than I have time for, so this seems unlikely. Does anybody who has read this far have an idea what to do next? Format and reinstall? Write my own driver to dump the disk first? Find an old PC with a controller card that could interface to the drive? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 18 01:51:28 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wyse 85 Message-ID: I have a fondness for the Wyse 85 and I was wondering if anyone here has one in decent condition to get rid of. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gklinger at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 02:05:34 2007 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:05:34 -0500 Subject: Wyse 85 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Griffith wrote: > I have a fondness for the Wyse 85 and I was wondering if anyone here has > one in decent condition to get rid of. I share your fondness for that particular terminal. I'm not sure what it is about the Wyse 85 but I just love them. My last one died a few years ago and my Wyse 60 just isn't up to snuff. Considering how many were made/sold, it's odd that they're so hard to find. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 18 02:14:08 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:14:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wyse 85 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Feb 2007, Golan Klinger wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > > I have a fondness for the Wyse 85 and I was wondering if anyone here has > > one in decent condition to get rid of. > > I share your fondness for that particular terminal. I'm not sure what > it is about the Wyse 85 but I just love them. My last one died a few > years ago and my Wyse 60 just isn't up to snuff. Considering how many > were made/sold, it's odd that they're so hard to find. I find the Wyse 50 on Ebay all the time, frequently newly refurbished. Do you still have the dead 85? Since the 50 is externally identical to the 85, do you think it would be possible to turn a 50 into an 85 with some rom swapping? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 02:15:22 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:15:22 -0500 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> Message-ID: On 2/17/07, jd wrote: > All this talk of Kennedy's reminds me... > > any chance of connecting old--recent old to old old--Kennedy 9tracks to > a PC? Probably, but I don't know specifics on ISA interfaces. > Or has anyone taken any surplus 9tracks and run them on PC's? Yes - a DEC TSZ07 SCSI 9-track on a Pentium laptop w/AHA1640 SCSI card. Dunno who made the transport, but there's a good chance it's a Kennedy under the hood. > Or, how about a 9track with GPIB/HPIB interface--any with Amigo or SS80 > command set? I have a GPIB 9-track, but I have no docs and don't know what command set it uses. Never fired it up. So I know such things were made, but not what will talk to them. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Feb 18 02:40:37 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:40:37 -0600 Subject: Periodic begging post Message-ID: <45D81105.2010304@mdrconsult.com> I find that if I don't ask occasionally, I don't get anything.... So, I'm looking for various software bits: boot floppy or install media for Burroughs B26 or any idea how to break the CTOS admin account same for a Siemens-Nixdorf RM400-10 AIX and/or AOS install media for a PC/RT (those used to be on ftp.dementia.org, but are no longer there, and I can't find my copy) XENIX 386 Actual media or floppy/tape images; I don't care. Documentation for all the above systems Hardware bits: mouse and/or color graphics for the PC/RT keyboard for Mindset system (with some sort of return agreement; I have no idea whether the box is alive or not) I don't expect any of this for free. Doc From billdeg at degnanco.net Sat Feb 17 15:44:57 2007 From: billdeg at degnanco.net (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:44:57 -0500 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 In-Reply-To: <200702171803.l1HI2HQs035171@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070217163904.02f67008@mail.degnanco.net> I found the answer to my original question...at least as far as running SWTPC 4K BASIC on an Altair 680. You can do it. The modifications are described in Kilobaud #8, August 1977. I will put up a copy on my web site asap. Every issue of Kilobaud from #7 to #12 in 1977 has an Altair 680 ad on the back. Byte Mags also have a lot of Altair 680 ads on the back covers in 1976. I think that they were serious about the computer, as an entry level system. That's just my opinion. I was too young to know first hand. Bill From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Feb 18 04:39:06 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 05:39:06 -0500 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <45D802C5.4030006@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200702181038.l1IAcZkg009830@hosting.monisys.ca> > I first booted into HDOS from floppy, the hard disk version of NSDOS. > It has both non-destructive and destructive disk tests. "LI" shows that > there is no meaningful HDOS file system on the drive. > > Next, I ran only the non-destructive test since one goal is to see what > is on the hard disk. HDOS, like NSDOS, has a command for reading > arbitrary absolute sectors from the floppy, but it isn't supported on > the hard drive -- instead you can load sectors relative to a named file, > which doesn't help me here. > > Next I booted turbodos from floppy. "DIR" shows no meaningful file > system on either of the two partitions on the drive. > > Finally, I'm at an impasse. I assume that this system had *something* > on the drive, although I suppose a previous owner did a FORMAT on the > drive before passing the system on. It would be easiest for me to just > format the drive and install either HDOS, or more likely, TurboDos and > get on with it. If I had more time I'd look into finding a mechanism to > read the hard drive sector by sector and make a copy, but the reality is > I have more projects than I have time for, so this seems unlikely. > > Does anybody who has read this far have an idea what to do next? Format > and reinstall? Write my own driver to dump the disk first? Find an old > PC with a controller card that could interface to the drive? Why not write a small program (on floppy) to read arbitrary sectors from the hard drive and dump them out. I've never used HDOS (all of my N* systems are floppy only), however I would expect that it's not hard. According to my TurboDOS manual, T-function 22 provides for physical disk access. Many XT and early AT controllers used the ST506 interface, however I don't know if the N* controller uses a compatible format - it shouldn't hurt to try as long as you don't write to the drive. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 07:22:56 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 08:22:56 -0500 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> Message-ID: <45D85330.6090201@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Or has anyone taken any surplus 9tracks and run them on PC's? > > Yes - a DEC TSZ07 SCSI 9-track on a Pentium laptop w/AHA1640 SCSI > card. Dunno who made the transport, but there's a good chance it's a > Kennedy under the hood. I don't think you really mean an AHA1640. The AHA1640 is a Microchannel card. Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 09:11:05 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:11:05 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/18/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/17/07, jd wrote: > > Or, how about a 9track with GPIB/HPIB interface--any with Amigo or SS80 > > command set? > > I have a GPIB 9-track, but I have no docs and don't know what command > set it uses. Never fired it up. So I know such things were made, but > not what will talk to them. > I have an HP 7980A 9-track with a GPIB interface. The CS/80 docs on bitsavers include tape commands. I haven't had a reason yet to try to write any code to talk to it from a PC. -Glen From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 18 09:31:22 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:31:22 -0600 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <45D7A8BB.2090300@garlic.com> References: <45D7A8BB.2090300@garlic.com> Message-ID: <45D8714A.3010401@yahoo.co.uk> jd wrote: > Here's one that even HP Greeley couldn't help with: > > Looking for specs and ROMS or ROM images for Xebec Winchester > controllers such as those used in the HP 9133A disk. Which board was that? I've got a few of the S1410 boards I think... I won't be near them (or a EPROM reader) for a few weeks. I'm not sure that it'll help anyway; I've got a feeling that Xebec often produced custom ROMs for specific manufacturers. Most of mine will be Torch; HP ones are probably different. > I have the HP manuals and there is not enough info in them. > > Somewhere I (may still) have DIP switch settings for the board, obtained > experimentally. I do not have > info in all the jumpers, ROMs, etc. The S1410 manual looks to be on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xebec cheers Jules From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sun Feb 18 10:11:11 2007 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:11:11 -0500 Subject: Star 8010 = Alto III ? In-Reply-To: <45D76031.4010203@atarimuseum.com> References: <000e01c752b9$daa14d20$6600a8c0@BILLING> <200702171939.l1HJdWiU008979@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <45D76031.4010203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <320E156C-8C03-421C-ADAF-E430AF444B6C@adelphia.net> I might be wrong on this... but I think that the Xerox 1100 was = to the Alto III, although they did not refer to it as the Alto III. David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT net OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On Feb 17, 2007, at 3:06 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Just curious - is the Star 8010 really the Alto III, I know the > Star was delayed over and over again and the Alto III had to go toe > to toe with the Xerox 850 wordprocessor only to lose to it in > proposals. > What I'm curious about is this disconnect where I don't clearly see > if the Alto III ever did finally make it out, to be the Star 8010 > or if the Star 8010 is what the Star group has originally set out > to produce or were there some Alto III's ever produced? > > > > > Curt > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 18 11:31:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:31:15 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >> hey, since the listing should be over by now (since you said you won >> it)...perhaps you wouldn't mind sending us a link to the listing >> so we can >> all drool over exactly what you got? :P :D :) > > Sure, absolutely. The item number originally posted for $299 has > been lost. The relist at my price is below. Try not to drool on the > knobs- they get slippery and hard to adjust ~(:-) that's me > with a feather in my cap. > > Item number: 330089349032 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK > %3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330089349032&rd=1&rd=1 A truly tasty device! That's an excellent score. A great scope in a great configuration, at an excellent price. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 12:18:53 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:18:53 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <45D85330.6090201@gmail.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <45D85330.6090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: > >> Or has anyone taken any surplus 9tracks and run them on PC's? You can get Pertec interface cards for both 8 and 16 bit ISA bus, MCA bus and I bet the PCI bus. I have know several people that ran large tape drives on PCs using a pertec interface card. Of course SCSI tape drives will run off a SCSI card in a PC also. The Kennedy 9610 SCSI front loader was sometimes mated with a PC this way. We had a person in Oregon in the 1990s that got the Department of Motor Vehicles registration list on reel tape and converted it to CDs and sold it on a quarterly basis untill it was made illegal because of identity theft. He worked it uout using a pertec interface in a IBM PC. I think he used a Qualstor tape Drive with a pertec interface. At that time DMV would only sell the data on Reel to Reel tapes. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alwrcker82 at comcast.net Sun Feb 18 07:25:35 2007 From: alwrcker82 at comcast.net (alwrcker82 at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:25:35 +0000 Subject: Mac Tapedrive 40sc (drivers) Message-ID: <021820071325.22688.45D853CF000A7E84000058A02216527966CDC89D0A050C9D99040E@comcast.net> Hope this is the correct list, need drivers and 40 mb cartridges for Mac Tape drive, 40sc. alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com From marvin at west.net Sun Feb 18 02:14:53 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 08:14:53 +0000 Subject: Bell Labs Generation Message-ID: <45D80AFD.5FF00824@west.net> Interesting, a quick MTV type history of Bell Labs! http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=IFfdnFOiXUU From marvin at west.net Sun Feb 18 04:45:09 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:45:09 +0000 Subject: Periodic begging post Message-ID: <45D82E35.274E86F5@west.net> I have a pretty complete set of docs for the IBM PC/RT; the only thing I am missing are the set of boot/install disks (I loaned them out for copying and haven't gotten them back yet.) At some point, I'd like to get them to Al for scanning ... in his copious spare time :). If the CTOS is the same for the B20, Al should have those as I loaned him the installation disks and docs to duplicate some time back. Marvin > From: Doc Shipley > boot floppy or install media for Burroughs B26 or any idea how to break > the CTOS admin account > > AIX and/or AOS install media for a PC/RT (those used to be on > > Documentation for all the above systems > mouse and/or color graphics for the PC/RT From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 18 12:50:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:50:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D73BB8.895.118F7836@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 7 05:30:32 pm Message-ID: > process-control equipment. I helped get me through college by > working as an instrumentation technician summers. Really primitive I think the main problem is that it's difficult to recreate enough of the 'process' at home to be able to use this equipment, so it would be a static collection. Of course some meaursing instruments can be used for other purposes, but then people do collect measuring instruments. Not quite the same thing, but I did rescue msot of the control system from, I think, an X-ray diffraction device. All discrete transitors, status indicators were DM160 indicator valves, configured by a patchboard. I got the paper tape punch and reader (mechancially the mechanisms used on the side of a Friden flexowriter, mounted on rack panesl with their own motors, and the printer, which was made by Victor Comptometer and seems to be essentially an electromechanical adding machine with solenoids over the key levers. > stuff--your basic tools were a portable potentiometer, optical > pyrometer and your pocket thermometer--and a pen-cleaning wire. > > A lot of the stuff was probably from the 20's. L&N Micromax chart > recorders/controllers (used a clockspring motor to run the works; > basically an automatic clamp galvanometer in a wheatstone bridge), > Askania hydraulic controls. Some of the more modern stuff was Brown > Electronik (later became part of Honeywell), and L&N Speedomax, using > mechanical chopper-stabilized amplifiers--and the very newest stuff I know the Honeywell-Brown 'Continuous Balance' chart recorder amplifier with the mechnical chopper. It drives a 2-phase induction motor, of course the output of the amplifier is phase-related to the chopper, which is phase-related to the mains (the choopper coil was driven by the heater winding on the mains transformer). One motor winding was driven from the amplifder output, the other from a winding on the mains transformer. Much the same circuit was used by various other ocmpanies, I mentioned I haf an old Houston Instruments X-Y analogue plotter in another thread. The 2 (valved) amplifiers in that unit have mechanical choppers in the input stage and woek in much the same way. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 13:11:55 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:11:55 -0500 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <45D85330.6090201@gmail.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <45D85330.6090201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Or has anyone taken any surplus 9tracks and run them on PC's? > > > > Yes - a DEC TSZ07 SCSI 9-track on a Pentium laptop w/AHA1640 SCSI > > card. Dunno who made the transport, but there's a good chance it's a > > Kennedy under the hood. > > I don't think you really mean an AHA1640. The AHA1640 is a Microchannel > card. Typo... that should have been 1460. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 18 13:13:12 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:13:12 -0800 Subject: Mac Tapedrive 40sc (drivers) Message-ID: <45D8A548.80305@bitsavers.org> > Hope this is the correct list, need drivers and 40 mb cartridges for Mac Tape drive, 40sc. do you have a working drive? every one I know of has had the rubber roller go bad. I have a copy of the unreleased driver with a number of bug fixes from the author. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Feb 18 13:30:34 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:30:34 -0600 Subject: Periodic begging post In-Reply-To: <45D82E35.274E86F5@west.net> References: <45D82E35.274E86F5@west.net> Message-ID: <45D8A95A.2040404@mdrconsult.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I have a pretty complete set of docs for the IBM PC/RT; the only thing I am > missing are the set of boot/install disks (I loaned them out for copying and > haven't gotten them back yet.) At some point, I'd like to get them to Al for > scanning ... in his copious spare time :). I think I've got enough docs in pdf from another member to do what I want at the moment, but I'll be watching bitsavers for your docs. Install media I have coming from another source, but thanks. > If the CTOS is the same for the B20, Al should have those as I loaned him the > installation disks and docs to duplicate some time back. If it's 808x-compatible, that's probably what I need. I can't find any real specs for the B20, so I'm not sure. I'll ask Al. Thanks for the pointers! Doc From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 18 14:11:06 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:11:06 -0500 Subject: Bell Labs Generation In-Reply-To: <45D80AFD.5FF00824@west.net> Message-ID: <000a01c75398$ec0f5270$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> That is a fantastic video. Over time you tend to forget how much "the telephone company" (as my father called it) has contributed to so many areas of communications and computers. My father worked at New York Telephone (and its successors NYNEX, Bell Atlantic and Verizon) for 25 years after leaving Grumman Aerospace in 1971. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:15 AM To: ClassicCmp Subject: Bell Labs Generation Interesting, a quick MTV type history of Bell Labs! http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=IFfdnFOiXUU From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Sun Feb 18 15:38:51 2007 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:38:51 EST Subject: Mac Tapedrive 40sc (drivers) Message-ID: The drive works fine, what I can tell the, I have two tapes I put one in the drive and the tape moves to the end or the start of the tape., but then no software for the rest of the operation. Al DePermentier From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 18 15:41:27 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:41:27 -0500 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200702182141.l1ILfXnP084635@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:48:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> coke-oven (producer) gas. For some reason never made clear to me, >> one of the competing "standards" for AC distribution was 25Hz (both >> 50 and 110v). >Didn't the 25 Hz stuff have it's origins in turn-of-the-century >electric-train/streetcar technology? ..such established systems then being >extended into residential/industrial use in some areas. There were a few >30's-era radios made for 25Hz, distinguished by their oversize power transformers. I remember commenting about the lightbulbs flickering in the NY subway and my dad tellling me that the subway operated on 25 cycle. this was close to 50 years ago. I asume it has been upgraded by now. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 18 16:03:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:03:13 -0800 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <200702182141.l1ILfXnP084635@keith.ezwind.net> References: <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca>, <200702182141.l1ILfXnP084635@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45D85CA1.15349.15F80B6A@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2007 at 16:41, Bob Bradlee wrote: > I remember commenting about the lightbulbs flickering in the NY subway and my dad tellling me that the > subway operated on 25 cycle. this was close to 50 years ago. I asume it has been upgraded by now. You should have seen mercury-vapor lamps operating off of 25Hz. The electricians would drive them from all three mains phases, so the lighting on the ground didn't look too bad, but if you glanced up toward the roof, it was very disturbing. Cheers, Chuck From stekster at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 17:34:29 2007 From: stekster at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:34:29 -0700 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <200702181803.l1II2cjL049282@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001c01c753b5$5a2b1f70$640fa8c0@Mycroft> Jim - If TurboDOS is compatible with CP/M and gives you access to the HD, can't you use a CP/M utility like DUU to see what's on it? Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 19:04:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:04:34 -0500 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <200702182141.l1ILfXnP084635@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702182141.l1ILfXnP084635@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45D8F7A2.3050605@gmail.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:48:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> coke-oven (producer) gas. For some reason never made clear to me, >>> one of the competing "standards" for AC distribution was 25Hz (both >>> 50 and 110v). > >> Didn't the 25 Hz stuff have it's origins in turn-of-the-century >> electric-train/streetcar technology? ..such established systems then being >> extended into residential/industrial use in some areas. There were a few >> 30's-era radios made for 25Hz, distinguished by their oversize power transformers. > > I remember commenting about the lightbulbs flickering in the NY subway and my dad tellling me that the > subway operated on 25 cycle. this was close to 50 years ago. I asume it has been upgraded by now. I believe they use high-voltage fluorescent in the Subway now. Peace... Sridhar From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Feb 18 19:16:00 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:16:00 -0800 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D791E4.24404.12E01023@cclist.sydex.com> References: <88BAD186-E779-404D-A7EE-4D17E001AF94@neurotica.com>, <45D7DAA3.7A3B3741@cs.ubc.ca>, <45D7E0AE.8080307@jetnet.ab.ca> <45D791E4.24404.12E01023@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45D8FA50.2070002@garlic.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Feb 2007 at 22:14, woodelf wrote: > > >> Lets not forget EDISON promoted DC as well. >> When you think about it, the RPM of the generator >> is the limiting factor. You can't have your moving >> parts move too fast. >> Or too slow -- hamster powered night light. >> http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html >> > > Oh, the steel mill had 250VDC distribution, as well as higher > voltages for the overhead cranes and welders. > > I once witnessed a plant electrician mistakenly wire a 120v 60Hz > water cooler to 250 VDC. The ensuing meltdown was fun to watch. His > boss told him to pack it back up and return it to stores with a tag > saying something to the effect that it was a manufacturing defect. > > And all the technical "savants" in Edison's time wanted AC to be at 133&1/3cps (8000cpm), not 60. These eggheads kept "proving" that 60Hz was impossible/impractical/whatever even after Tesla lighted the World's Fair. -- jd Fuller's law of cosmic irreversibility: 1 pot t == 1 pot p. 1 pot p != 1 pot t. From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Feb 18 18:40:10 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:40:10 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <45D8714A.3010401@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45D7A8BB.2090300@garlic.com> <45D8714A.3010401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45D8F1EA.5010200@garlic.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > jd wrote: >> Here's one that even HP Greeley couldn't help with: >> >> Looking for specs and ROMS or ROM images for Xebec Winchester >> controllers such as those used in the HP 9133A disk. > > Which board was that? I've got a few of the S1410 boards I think... I > won't be near them (or a EPROM reader) for a few weeks. I'm not sure > that it'll help anyway; I've got a feeling that Xebec often produced > custom ROMs for specific manufacturers. Most of mine will be Torch; HP > ones are probably different. > >> I have the HP manuals and there is not enough info in them. > > >> Somewhere I (may still) have DIP switch settings for the board, >> obtained experimentally. I do not have Theyre not S1410's. Not even close. They have the black brick in the middle, HPIB connector and connect to two ST506-type drives. I have one connected to a Seagate and a Shugart 5Mb and one connected to a Shugart 10Mb. Since they are buried deeply in storage I can't see them (or get to them quickly). -- jd Reporter (to Mahatma Gandhi): Mr Gandhi, what do you think of Western Civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea. From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Feb 18 19:39:54 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:39:54 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> Glen Slick wrote: > > I have an HP 7980A 9-track with a GPIB interface. The CS/80 docs on > bitsavers include tape commands. I haven't had a reason yet to try to > write any code to talk to it from a PC. A! That's what I should get then. And there really are CS/80 docs? I was told by Greeley in 1988 that they had ceased to exist. Not even HP Europe had any left. Not even any Greeley retirees... All I could get were the SS/80 and Amigo manuals. A quick look @ bitsavers (again) failed to turn them up. If they're there, I'll find them... -- jd Misfortune, n.: The kind of fortune that never misses. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 18 19:49:37 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:49:37 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller Message-ID: <45D90231.6050301@bitsavers.org> > Theyre not S1410's. Not even close. They have the black brick in the > middle, HPIB connector and connect to two ST506-type drives. I have the docs scanned, will have to remember where I put them. The box was made by a third party orig. The Xebec controller with the epoxy brick is the one that predates the LSI used on the 1410. There was a Multibus version of the controller as well. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 18 19:59:13 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:59:13 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... Message-ID: <45D90471.8030506@bitsavers.org> > And there really are CS/80 docs? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/5955-3442_cs80-is-pm.pdf CS80 programmers manual what isn't in there is the drive-specific info if you wanted to write a drive simulator. I had wanted to dump the data from a bunch of different drives to get the info documented, but I haven't done it. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 18 20:37:17 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:37:17 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller Message-ID: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org> What I have are the docs for the MSC-9305 ST506-GPIB interface which used the Xebec module. At one point it looked like the commands were compatible. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC-9305_ST506-GPIB_1980.pdf From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 19 00:46:57 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:46:57 -0800 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) References: <200702182141.l1ILfXnP084635@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45D947D4.355CF697@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Bradlee wrote: > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:48:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> coke-oven (producer) gas. For some reason never made clear to me, > >> one of the competing "standards" for AC distribution was 25Hz (both > >> 50 and 110v). > > >Didn't the 25 Hz stuff have it's origins in turn-of-the-century > >electric-train/streetcar technology? ..such established systems then being > >extended into residential/industrial use in some areas. There were a few > >30's-era radios made for 25Hz, distinguished by their oversize power transformers. > > I remember commenting about the lightbulbs flickering in the NY subway and my dad tellling me that the > subway operated on 25 cycle. this was close to 50 years ago. I asume it has been upgraded by now. > > Bob Came across the following while searching for info on 25Hz systems: http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/power/rotary.html http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/power/ Nice writeups about the NYC subway and it's power systems. The trains ran on DC but the power transmission was AC. It suggests there were some benefits of the lower frequency for the rotary-mechanical AC->DC conversion process. Apparently some of the 25Hz stuff was still in use into the mid-1990s. .. To make this mildly on-topic, those of us here can all take offense at the following quote: "In even later years, solid-state rectifiers of sufficient capacity for the traction power industry were developed, and substations became no more exciting than giant computer chips." From geojacobs at netzero.ne Mon Feb 19 01:14:31 2007 From: geojacobs at netzero.ne (geojacobs at netzero.ne) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:14:31 -0500 Subject: More old software available Message-ID: <000501c753f5$9b40b2f0$193fec04@george> If the Freelance for DOS is still available I am interested George Louis Jacobs 718 455 5239 geojacobs at netzero.net From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 19 02:54:11 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:54:11 -0800 Subject: SWTPc 6800 vs. Altair 680 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070217163904.02f67008@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <45D965A6.67C493FD@cs.ubc.ca> "B. Degnan" wrote: > > I found the answer to my original question...at least as far as running > SWTPC 4K BASIC on an Altair 680. You can do it. The modifications are > described in Kilobaud #8, August 1977. I will put up a copy on my web site > asap. > > Every issue of Kilobaud from #7 to #12 in 1977 has an Altair 680 ad on the > back. Byte Mags also have a lot of Altair 680 ads on the back covers in > 1976. I think that they were serious about the computer, as an entry level > system. That's just my opinion. I was too young to know first hand. As a teenager, a friend gave me a subscription to Kilobaud magazine in return for soldering up many of the boards for his IMSAI. About 15 years ago I threw out the complete set of the first ~2 years of the mag, after having hung on to them for the preceding 15 years. Silly me. (I kept one issue). They are a nice magazine to get a feeling for the topics, concerns and products of the era. Lots of projects for hacking and improving (?) the early hobby machines. From cc at corti-net.de Mon Feb 19 03:54:52 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:54:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> <45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Feb 2007, jd wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: >> >> I have an HP 7980A 9-track with a GPIB interface. The CS/80 docs on >> bitsavers include tape commands. I haven't had a reason yet to try to >> write any code to talk to it from a PC. > A! That's what I should get then. > > And there really are CS/80 docs? I was told by Greeley in 1988 that they had > ceased to exist. Not even HP Europe had any left. Not even any Greeley > retirees... All I could get were the SS/80 and Amigo manuals. > > A quick look @ bitsavers (again) failed to turn them up. If they're there, > I'll find them... I think you're looking for HP7974A,HP7978A/B,HP7979A,HP7980A,HP7980XC HP-IB Interface Protocol Specifications from Greeley Storage Division, I have revision 6.55 from May 8, 1989 as a PDF document. (Al: Do you need this document?) Christian From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 19 08:46:21 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:46:21 -0500 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <45D947D4.355CF697@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200702191446.l1JEkSfq030305@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:46:57 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: >"In even later years, solid-state rectifiers of sufficient capacity for the >traction power industry were developed, and substations became no more >exciting than giant computer chips." Now there are fighting words. I expect this group would find a giant computer chip of great interest ! Thanks for the subway link, and to keep things on topic, the IBM 370 family of mainframes used a MG (motor genertaor) set to convert the 60hz power from the mains to 3 phase at 400Hz to allow more efficent conversion of power in the internal supplies. Both smaller transformars and much smaller filter caps were needed to convert and smooth the 400hz to DC. In fear of sliding too far back on topic :-) I will point out that the telephone system uses 90v 30hz as the ring signal because it worked so well with the mechanical bells used in the early phones. The other Bob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 19 09:03:09 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:03:09 -0600 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <200702191446.l1JEkSfq030305@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702191446.l1JEkSfq030305@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45D9BC2D.3050801@yahoo.co.uk> Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:46:57 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> "In even later years, solid-state rectifiers of sufficient capacity for the >> traction power industry were developed, and substations became no more >> exciting than giant computer chips." > > Now there are fighting words. I expect this group would find a giant > computer chip of great interest ! I wouldn't, not against a huge mercury arc rectifier or rotary convertor. Any electronics that you can *see* working always beats little (or big) black boxes :-) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 09:35:01 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:35:01 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> <45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702190735y7c7d803es12c8eb80b90e2ffa@mail.gmail.com> On 2/19/07, Christian Corti wrote: > > I think you're looking for HP7974A,HP7978A/B,HP7979A,HP7980A,HP7980XC > HP-IB Interface Protocol Specifications from Greeley Storage Division, > I have revision 6.55 from May 8, 1989 as a PDF document. > (Al: Do you need this document?) > > Christian > I don't remember stumbling across that document yet. If it's not on bitsavers and Al doesn't have a copy I'd appreciate if you could make a copy available for him to post. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 19 10:11:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:11:50 -0700 Subject: database of PC software release dates? Message-ID: Is there a database somewhere that attempts to catalog the introduction date of software for the IBM PC and compatibles? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Mon Feb 19 11:15:06 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:15:06 -0500 Subject: database of PC software release dates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1171905306.1685.30.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 09:11 -0700, Richard wrote: > Is there a database somewhere that attempts to catalog the > introduction date of software for the IBM PC and compatibles? If there isn't, it's a great idea, Richard. Are you volunteering? Links for the software, if available, or at least an article including advertisements and reviews, would be extra cool, too. Sort of a "card catalogue" for software. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 19 11:32:51 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:32:51 -0700 Subject: database of PC software release dates? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:15:06 -0500. <1171905306.1685.30.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1171905306.1685.30.camel at linux.site>, Warren Wolfe writes: > On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 09:11 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Is there a database somewhere that attempts to catalog the > > introduction date of software for the IBM PC and compatibles? > > > If there isn't, it's a great idea, Richard. Are you volunteering? Maybe if I could find someplace to host an asp.net application for free, but so far no luck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Mon Feb 19 11:47:27 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:47:27 -0500 Subject: database of PC software release dates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1171907247.1685.45.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 10:32 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article <1171905306.1685.30.camel at linux.site>, > Warren Wolfe writes: > > > On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 09:11 -0700, Richard wrote: > > > Is there a database somewhere that attempts to catalog the > > > introduction date of software for the IBM PC and compatibles? > > > > > > If there isn't, it's a great idea, Richard. Are you volunteering? > > Maybe if I could find someplace to host an asp.net application for > free, but so far no luck. Okay, since *I* am opening *my* mouth, give me a few days, and I believe I can arrange that. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Feb 19 11:35:54 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:35:54 -0500 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com><1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com><45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> Message-ID: <000c01c7544c$68c5ce30$a4a4fea9@win2000> I think you're looking for HP7974A,HP7978A/B,HP7979A,HP7980A,HP7980XC > HP-IB Interface Protocol Specifications from Greeley Storage Division, > I have revision 6.55 from May 8, 1989 as a PDF document. > (Al: Do you need this document?) > > Christian Cool... I'd really like a copy of that doc. Please let me know the URL when it gets posted. NOTE: Most of the 9000/800 series boxes, including the small ones (IE F20), had HPIB ports installed from the factory. If you can find one of those systems, you'll have an ideal machine not only for accessing your 9-track but for talking to all kinds of HPIB devices. The last couple of machines I got off Bay went for < $50 each. See Ya, SteveRob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 19 15:03:55 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:03:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Flexowriter docs In-Reply-To: <000e01c750c3$f6e499d0$9210d742@bobs> Message-ID: <514214.95082.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I picked up six Friden Flexowriters in bad shape. Does anyone have service manuals for these? I did not find them on bitsavers. I'm hoping to make a few good ones out of them all. Some photos of the various types ( there are 3 different types) I have are here: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/flex1.jpg http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/flex2.jpg http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/flex3.jpg http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/flex4.jpg Thanks, Bob From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 19 16:17:07 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:17:07 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.folklore.computers] Diablo 630 printer and accessories Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:02:56 -0500 Groups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Vic45" Org: BellSouth Internet Group Subject: Diablo 630 printer and accessories Id: ======== I have a Diablo 630 with print ribbons, one metal print wheel and several plastic print wheels. This unit was functioning perfectly when I took it out of service 20+ years ago. How might I find a good home for it? I am in the Atlanta area. Vic From useddec at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 16:41:56 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:41:56 -0600 Subject: [alt.folklore.computers] Diablo 630 printer and accessories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60702191441h7727daffua81aaf143568b61d@mail.gmail.com> I think this is the printer DEC used as the LQP01 on the VT and WD78. Paul Anderson On 2/19/07, Richard wrote: > > > This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the > original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. > > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:02:56 -0500 > Groups: alt.folklore.computers > From: "Vic45" > Org: BellSouth Internet Group > Subject: Diablo 630 printer and accessories > Id: > ======== > I have a Diablo 630 with print ribbons, one metal print wheel and several > plastic print wheels. This unit was functioning perfectly when I took it > out of service 20+ years ago. How might I find a good home for it? I am > in > the Atlanta area. > > Vic > > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 19 17:00:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:00:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> No idea whether this is true or not, as it was in part of a spam email, but because of the TI link, I thought it might be of some interest here (and perhaps someone can confirm whether it's true or not?): In 1960 an engineer working for a watch company in Switzerland discovered that a small crystal would vibrate at a constant rate. He found this was so accurate that it could be used to calibrate time so he took it to company management and said it would make an entirely new kind of watch that had no springs and no gears. They could not imagine who would want such a thing. Swiss watches dominated world commerce. They did not even bother to patent it. The inventor took his new idea to a commercial trade show, set up his booth and tried to interest manufacturers to produce his new kind of watch. Of the thousand people only 2 were willing to try it ? Texas Instruments and Seiko Corp. of Japan. Ten years later the Swiss manufacture of watches had shrunk to 10% of it former production. It took a complete change of thinking to produce this new model because most people are rooted in the old way and are reluctant to change. The new model, the new paradigm is refused. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 17:12:56 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:12:56 -0800 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches In-Reply-To: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702191512s4cd7cb4bq68c04fbc1ff4f48e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/19/07, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > No idea whether this is true or not, as it > was in part of a spam email, but because of > the TI link, I thought it might be of some > interest here (and perhaps someone can confirm > whether it's true or not?): > > > In 1960 an engineer working for a watch > company in Switzerland discovered that a small > crystal would vibrate at a constant rate. I imagine the history of crystal oscillators goes back a lot longer than the 1960s. A quick web search found this article with much earlier dates: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/fc_history/bottom.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 18 20:07:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:07:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) In-Reply-To: <200702191446.l1JEkSfq030305@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob Bradlee" at Feb 19, 7 09:46:21 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:46:57 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >"In even later years, solid-state rectifiers of sufficient capacity for the > >traction power industry were developed, and substations became no more > >exciting than giant computer chips." > > Now there are fighting words. I expect this group would find a giant > computer chip of great interest ! I don't find large chips to be of much interest. Now large boards of small chips are a differnt story :-) > > Thanks for the subway link, and to keep things on topic, the IBM 370 > family of mainframes used a MG > (motor genertaor) set to convert the 60hz power from the mains to 3 > phase at 400Hz to allow more efficent > conversion of power in the internal supplies. Both smaller > transformars and much smaller filter caps were > needed to convert and smooth the 400hz to DC. I believe (military?) aircraft used 400Hz-ish supplies because they could then use smaller (and lighter) transformers and smoothing capacitors. It can be a problem for the military radio enthusiasts who want to power up such sets now. And of course it's one advantage of the modern SMPSU. The transformer is much smaller than a 50Hz (or 60Hz) transformer of the same output ratings, and the smoothing capacitors are smaller too. > > In fear of sliding too far back on topic :-) > I will point out that the telephone system uses 90v 30hz as the ring > signal because it worked so well with > the mechanical bells used in the early phones. Over here I think it's officially 25Hz, but for much the same reason. Medium and large telephone exchanges produced that supply using a motor-generator set running from the (50V DC) lead-acid battery that powered the rest of the exchange. Small private exchanges produced it from the mains using a resonant transformer/capacitor circuit fed with half-wave rectified mains (I have one of the ex-GPO converters somewhere). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 18 20:13:40 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:13:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <000c01c7544c$68c5ce30$a4a4fea9@win2000> from "Steve Robertson" at Feb 19, 7 12:35:54 pm Message-ID: > NOTE: Most of the 9000/800 series boxes, including the small ones (IE F20), Why that series particularly? Many older HP9000s have HPIB ports as standard too. I must admit I am partial to the HP9000/200 machines. THey're old enough to be classics, they use mostly standard chips with the odd ROM and PAL dotted about, and the mechanicak sontruction, although different in all the models I own (9816, 9836, 9817) is in all cases beautiful. Very easy to work on, and with a good range of (DIO) expansion cards including further HPIB ports, serial ports GPIO (16 bit parallel) ports, etc. I have an HP9000/340 somewhere, but I took one look at the mainboard, notices the several square ASICs, and put the case back on. It doesn't really excite me at all.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 18 20:18:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:18:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Feb 19, 7 05:00:14 pm Message-ID: > In 1960 an engineer working for a watch > company in Switzerland discovered that a small > crystal would vibrate at a constant rate. He First problem. There were quartz crystal-controlled oscillators before WW2. Many military radios in said war used crystals to set the frequncy. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 19 17:31:45 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:31:45 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D Message-ID: Hi folks, It always pleases me to bring some new DEC stuff into Binary Dinosaurs, but it's even better when it's in good condition and still working nicely :) Tonight I drove a grand total of 62 miles to *edit* bollocks, while I was typing this the machine I was going to crow about nuked the power to my house :) Aaaaaanyhoo, it's a Professional 380 with RD52 and RX50 coupled to a nice VR241 for display purposes, running P/OS 2.2. Or at least it was until the power gave out. To be fair it hadn't been powered up for a few years so I really should've taken it into work and started it up on the 'doesn't matter if it blows' mains but hey ho. No magic smoke so I wonder what's up with it..... It came with an LA210, LVP16 plotter, several boxes of Pro manuals and loads of P/OS disks and software distros. In a word: nice. Unless it's going to keep nuking my mains :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 19 18:11:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 00:11:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 19, 7 11:31:45 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > It always pleases me to bring some new DEC stuff into Binary Dinosaurs, but > it's even better when it's in good condition and still working nicely :) Oh, I don't knwo... A non-working machine gives you the pleasure of tracing the fault :-) > > Tonight I drove a grand total of 62 miles to > > *edit* bollocks, while I was typing this the machine I was going to crow > about nuked the power to my house :) > > Aaaaaanyhoo, it's a Professional 380 with RD52 and RX50 coupled to a nice > VR241 for display purposes, running P/OS 2.2. Or at least it was until the > power gave out. To be fair it hadn't been powered up for a few years so I firstly, do you know if it's the CPU box or the monitor that's tripping the mains? And is it tripping the mains due to excessive current (posibly due to a primary-side failure in the SMPSU -- good luck if that's in the VR241!), or is it trupping it due to earth leakage (prossibly a defective mains filter capaciotr)? > really should've taken it into work and started it up on the 'doesn't matter > if it blows' mains but hey ho. No magic smoke so I wonder what's up with > it..... How many tims do I have to repeat 'Never switch on a classic computer without doing some PSU tests first' ? -tony From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Feb 19 17:29:50 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:29:50 -0500 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... References: Message-ID: <001e01c7547d$daa6d400$a4a4fea9@win2000> > > NOTE: Most of the 9000/800 series boxes, including the small ones (IE F20), > > Why that series particularly? Many older HP9000s have HPIB ports as > standard too. Because it seems to be the easiest path to making practical use of the tape drive. I'm not saying it can't be done your way, it's just a matter of what's easiest and most practical (for the rest of us). For that matter, I have read data off HPIB disks and tapes using a HPIB bus analyzer one byte at a time. Sure it can be done but, it ain't for the faint of heart! OK... Quick survey. How many people on the list own a HPIB bus analyzer and have ever made "real" use of it? So... Assuming you had a HPIB tape drive, 9816, and a PC. Exactly what steps would be required to transfer data between the PC and 9-track? I can tell you what's required to accomplish the same task with an inexpensive, readily available, HPUX box. 1.) FTP the file from PC to HPUX box - Networking is included in the base HPUX install. 2.) Copy the data to the TAPE drive - HPIB and TAPE drivers are also included in the base install. Hmm... Question: Can a 9 track tape drive be set up as a NFS mount? If so, skip step one ;-) 3.) Have a cold beer while Tony solders together a serial cable to link his 9816 to the PC. 4.) Have another beer while Tony writes (both ends) of a kermit-like program to transfer the data. NOTE: Surely the easiest way would be to find a 9-Track with SCSI interface and hook it directly to the PC. Does Windows and/or Linux provide support for the drives? I'd gladly trade a spare 7980 HPIB drive for a SCSI one. See ya, SteveRob From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Feb 19 09:05:43 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:05:43 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org> References: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D9BCC7.5000807@garlic.com> Al Kossow wrote: > What I have are the docs for the MSC-9305 ST506-GPIB interface > which used the Xebec module. At one point it looked like the > commands were compatible. That board is fairly close to what i have. My board is bigger and uses dual row headers for the drive connections. it has no edge connectors at all. It looks like it's about 6 inches wide and about 9 or so inches long. There are no edge connectors on it. The DIP switch selects device address, drive type and format. There is a button and LED for selftest, several jumpers dispersed around the board. I think it uses an 8051 with the UVEPROM window (but it may be an 8048) with external 2K or 4K UVEPROM. I don't recall whether it had external RAM or not. The board connected to the two 5Mb's can make them each look like four HP 8-inch floppy's or one 4.8Mb disk. The board connected to the 10Mb disk, in it's original Xebec enclosure, can do the above plus handle a 10Mb disk but I don't think it can format it properly. I guess I'll have to take a few days off and dig into storage to see exactly what I have and take some of them there geekpron pix... -- jd You cannot propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back. From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Feb 19 08:06:40 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:06:40 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> <45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> Message-ID: <45D9AEF0.2010703@garlic.com> Christian Corti wrote: > I think you're looking for HP7974A,HP7978A/B,HP7979A,HP7980A,HP7980XC > HP-IB Interface Protocol Specifications from Greeley Storage Division, > I have revision 6.55 from May 8, 1989 as a PDF document. > (Al: Do you need this document?) That sounds familiar too... I have IEEE-488.1 1978(?) and a later rev & part of 488.2 plus the SS/80 manual and an Amigo draft manual. I think I have the CS/80 manual part number somewhere. ...just have to figure out which terabyte of data it's in... -- jd I've not lost my mind. It's backed up on card, tape, disc and CDROM. Somewhere--I just can't find it. From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Feb 18 22:02:20 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:02:20 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org> References: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45D9214C.9070803@garlic.com> Al Kossow wrote: > What I have are the docs for the MSC-9305 ST506-GPIB interface > which used the Xebec module. At one point it looked like the > commands were compatible. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC-9305_ST506-GPIB_1980.pdf > > That rings a bell. MSC is what Xebec was before they changed their name. Not long after that they replaced the brick with the WD1710. (dunno what they called themselves after...) Thanks!I'll take a look. -- jd Don't take life too seriously -- you'll never get out of it alive. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 19 19:45:02 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:45:02 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:11 AM +0000 2/20/07, Tony Duell wrote: >How many tims do I have to repeat 'Never switch on a classic computer >without doing some PSU tests first' ? Face it Tony, someone is always going to be doing it. Don't tell me that you've *never* done it. :^) Sometimes it's easy to forget in the excitement of a new system. Actually how about a clarification here. Are you saying *ALWAYS* test the PS before turning the system? Or just when it's been idle for a while? I do know when the time comes for me to power my PDP-11/44 back on, I'll be testing the PS first (I've not been able to use it for over 6 years). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 19 19:56:06 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:56:06 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... Message-ID: <45DA5536.2050002@bitsavers.org> > Surely the easiest way would be to find a 9-Track with SCSI interface > and hook it directly to the PC. It is. I have read thousand of tapes with a Powerbook G3 and various SCSI interfaced drives (Kennedy, HP, M4 Data and Qualstar). Surprisingly, for 1600/6250 the Qualstar 34xx is the best at recovering data. The Kennedy 96xx was working great on 800bpi tapes 'til the takeup tension arm started failing self-test. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 19 19:59:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:59:54 -0800 Subject: Xebec Winchester controller In-Reply-To: <45D9214C.9070803@garlic.com> References: <45D90D5D.8080607@bitsavers.org>, <45D9214C.9070803@garlic.com> Message-ID: <45D9E59A.8583.1BF71208@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2007 at 20:02, jd wrote: > That rings a bell. MSC is what Xebec was before they changed their name. > Not long after that they replaced the brick with the WD1710. > > (dunno what they called themselves after...) I've got a very rough (changes inked in) programming document for the MSC-10XX (yes, that's what it says) controller. It connects to a SA-400x (14" drive) and has a GPIB interface (I have the drive and controller). The board is very large--almost the same area as the drive itself. No bricks. An early instruction sheet I have for a Xebec drive proudly calls out the drive "Perameters". Spelling must not have been one of their strengths. Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 20:26:40 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:26:40 -0600 Subject: ferric chloride...a little off topic Message-ID: <624966d60702191826s5abb9aa4k3da3a97ad09b11ce@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know of a good supplier (in the US) of ferric chloride for etching? I'm looking for one or five gallon containers. Thanks, Paul Anderson From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 19 21:09:25 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:09:25 -0800 Subject: ferric chloride...a little off topic In-Reply-To: <624966d60702191826s5abb9aa4k3da3a97ad09b11ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <624966d60702191826s5abb9aa4k3da3a97ad09b11ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D9F5E5.11439.1C36B5E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2007 at 20:26, Paul Anderson wrote: > Does anyone know of a good supplier (in the US) of ferric chloride for > etching? I'm looking for one or five gallon containers. When I was doing more of my own PCB work, I'd just buy the stuff from my local chemical supply place. I'd buy the technical grade, which came in large chunks (just add water) that came by the drumfull. I seem to remember that it's also used in sewage treatment--so if you have contacts there, you might be able to score some. Cheers, Chuck From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Feb 19 21:32:12 2007 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:32:12 -0500 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >In 1960 an engineer working for a watch >company in Switzerland discovered that a small >crystal would vibrate at a constant rate. He >found this was so accurate that it could be >used to calibrate time so he took it to >company management and said it would make >an entirely new kind of watch that had no >springs and no gears. They could not imagine >who would want such a thing. Swiss watches >dominated world commerce. They did not even >bother to patent it. The first prototype quartz crystal watch was developed by a Swiss company, CEH, in 1962. The first commercial quartz crystal watch was the Seiko 35SQ, in 1969. The first to market in the USA was the Accuquartz from Bulova, a Swiss company, in 1970. Before there were quartz crystal oscillators in watches, Bulova developed and sold watches with 360Hz tuning fork oscillators. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 19 22:01:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:01:41 -0800 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: <45DA0225.4164.1C668CEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2007 at 22:32, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > Before there were quartz crystal oscillators in watches, Bulova developed > and sold watches with 360Hz tuning fork oscillators. ...and before that, there were electric watches that used a conventional balance wheel as the timing reference. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 19 22:13:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:13:40 -0800 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches Message-ID: >From: "Glen Slick" > >On 2/19/07, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> >>No idea whether this is true or not, as it >>was in part of a spam email, but because of >>the TI link, I thought it might be of some >>interest here (and perhaps someone can confirm >>whether it's true or not?): >> >> >>In 1960 an engineer working for a watch >>company in Switzerland discovered that a small >>crystal would vibrate at a constant rate. > >I imagine the history of crystal oscillators goes back a lot longer >than the 1960s. > >A quick web search found this article with much earlier dates: > >http://www.ieee-uffc.org/fc_history/bottom.html Hi The use of quartz crystals in watches did take some invention. Most crystals used for oscillators would have either had to be made very large to get to lower frequencies or run at high frequencies. Running at high frequencies would run the battery down quite soon. It was the concept of the cantilever mounted crystal that allowed a piece of quartz to both oscillate at a low frequency and be small as well. They also found a cut with the right temp coef to work well attached to a humans arm. It was these things that made the quartz watch work. The Swiss were into making chronometers. This also required that they maintain exact time, over a wide range of temperatures. With out additional correction, these quartz watches can't meet such requirements. Of course, the Swiss didn't think that most would keep their watch with them most of the time and would still be quite accurate. Such is life. When looking at the inventions of the twentieth century, I have considered the quartz oscillator to be the most important. No good replacement has been found. Tubes to transistors to FET's and the quartz crystal is still essential. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft? Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 19 23:56:40 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:56:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wyse 85 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Feb 2007, David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007, Golan Klinger wrote: > > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > > I have a fondness for the Wyse 85 and I was wondering if anyone here has > > > one in decent condition to get rid of. > > > > I share your fondness for that particular terminal. I'm not sure what > > it is about the Wyse 85 but I just love them. My last one died a few > > years ago and my Wyse 60 just isn't up to snuff. Considering how many > > were made/sold, it's odd that they're so hard to find. > > I find the Wyse 50 on Ebay all the time, frequently newly refurbished. > Do you still have the dead 85? Since the 50 is externally identical to > the 85, do you think it would be possible to turn a 50 into an 85 with > some rom swapping? Whoops. They're not identical. I've unearthed a Wyse 99gt with bad screenburn and nasty case discoloration. Seems close enough for my purposes. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From paisley at erols.com Mon Feb 19 18:52:29 2007 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:52:29 -0500 Subject: 6' DEC Cabinet available zip 10512 Message-ID: <013601c75489$66a91c00$020a0a0a@cj2a> Hi Curt. Do you know if this is the H960 rack? I am looking for one that has the "legs" on the front. Like the one in this photo: http://www.groenenberg.net/pic/PDP/eb04.jpg Do you have any photos of the cabinet? Thanks. Todd Paisley From marvin at west.net Mon Feb 19 16:35:54 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:35:54 +0000 Subject: CPUs in What Computer Message-ID: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> Something I just ran across was a website with a list of CPUs and the machines that used them starting with the Intel 4004 and continuing up through the 8086/8088. http://www.cpushack.net/antique-computers.html As they themselves say, the list is far from complete, but it is pretty interesting. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 20 02:21:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:21:55 -0500 Subject: Wyse 85 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D889D4E-5732-40D8-B8BF-4308D6A3BF47@neurotica.com> On Feb 20, 2007, at 12:56 AM, David Griffith wrote: > Whoops. They're not identical. I've unearthed a Wyse 99gt with bad > screenburn and nasty case discoloration. Seems close enough for my > purposes. The 99GT is one of my favorite terminals. I sat in front of one for a very long time. I had one at home for a while, years ago, but it was torched beyond repair by a nearby lightning strike. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wizard at voyager.net Tue Feb 20 03:27:22 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:27:22 -0500 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1171963643.6397.158.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 22:32 -0500, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > The first prototype quartz crystal watch was developed by a Swiss company, > CEH, in 1962. The first commercial quartz crystal watch was the Seiko 35SQ, > in 1969. The first to market in the USA was the Accuquartz from Bulova, a > Swiss company, in 1970. To take the other path here, the oldest reference to electronic crystal oscillators of the non-watch variety was from Bell Telephone Labs in 1921. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jclang at notms.net Tue Feb 20 05:00:17 2007 From: jclang at notms.net (joe lang) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 06:00:17 -0500 Subject: CPUs in What Computer In-Reply-To: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> References: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> Message-ID: <45DAD4C1.4040208@notms.net> Marvin Johnston wrote: >Something I just ran across was a website with a list of CPUs and the machines >that used them starting with the Intel 4004 and continuing up through the >8086/8088. > >http://www.cpushack.net/antique-computers.html > >As they themselves say, the list is far from complete, but it is pretty >interesting. > > > Not too bad for the intel stuff. But really really incomplete for everything else. joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 07:45:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 07:45:21 -0600 Subject: CPUs in What Computer In-Reply-To: <45DAD4C1.4040208@notms.net> References: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> <45DAD4C1.4040208@notms.net> Message-ID: <45DAFB71.5000504@yahoo.co.uk> joe lang wrote: >> http://www.cpushack.net/antique-computers.html >> >> As they themselves say, the list is far from complete, but it is pretty >> interesting. >> > Not too bad for the intel stuff. > But really really incomplete for everything else. I think the number of entries for each CPU is about right though - if it tried to include everything then the page would just be massive (it's sort of at the size now where it makes for an interesting flick-through; I doubt it could ever be comprehensive given the amount of systems each country produced) Various CPU types seem to be missing though and it'd be nice to see example machines that used those included (Natsemi 32xxx, Motorola 88k etc.) cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Feb 20 08:24:45 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:24:45 -0500 Subject: 6' DEC Cabinet available zip 10512 In-Reply-To: <013601c75489$66a91c00$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <013601c75489$66a91c00$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <45DB04AD.2030800@atarimuseum.com> Todd, Sorry, no this is a storageworks cabinet. Curt Todd Paisley wrote: > Hi Curt. Do you know if this is the H960 rack? I am looking for one that has the "legs" on the front. Like the one in this photo: > > http://www.groenenberg.net/pic/PDP/eb04.jpg > > Do you have any photos of the cabinet? Thanks. > > Todd Paisley > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 08:39:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:39:04 -0600 Subject: List stats? Message-ID: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> Jay, Any ideas how many messages have been posted to this list since its creation back in (mumble, mumble - 1987?) ? I'm just curious. Sent to the list rather than privately as I figured others might be interested to know too... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 08:53:50 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:53:50 -0600 Subject: NeXT external CDROM drive Message-ID: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> Anyone happen to have a source to a photo of the NeXT CDROM drive? Google's being spectacularly unhelpful (one of those times where it'd be really handy to be able to do a case-sensitive search :) I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house (and so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether it was just an off-the-shelf unit. cheers Jules From g at kurico.com Tue Feb 20 09:10:26 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:10:26 -0600 Subject: CPUs in What Computer In-Reply-To: <45DAFB71.5000504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> <45DAD4C1.4040208@notms.net> <45DAFB71.5000504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DB0F62.2020206@kurico.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > joe lang wrote: >>> http://www.cpushack.net/antique-computers.html >>> >>> As they themselves say, the list is far from complete, but it is pretty >>> interesting. >>> >> Not too bad for the intel stuff. >> But really really incomplete for everything else. > > I think the number of entries for each CPU is about right though - if > it tried to include everything then the page would just be massive > (it's sort of at the size now where it makes for an interesting > flick-through; I doubt it could ever be comprehensive given the amount > of systems each country produced) > > Various CPU types seem to be missing though and it'd be nice to see > example machines that used those included (Natsemi 32xxx, Motorola 88k > etc.) > > cheers > > Jules > Actually I think that this is the perfect style of content for a wiki. It crys for open contributions. Is there one out there already? George From g at kurico.com Tue Feb 20 09:14:55 2007 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:14:55 -0600 Subject: NeXT external CDROM drive In-Reply-To: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DB106F.8030200@kurico.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone happen to have a source to a photo of the NeXT CDROM drive? > Google's being spectacularly unhelpful (one of those times where it'd > be really handy to be able to do a case-sensitive search :) > > I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house (and > so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether it was > just an off-the-shelf unit. > > cheers > > Jules > I have one at home, if I can find it (and that's a mighty big if), I'll snap a photo if someone else doesn't dig one up beforehand. George From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Feb 20 10:23:08 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:23:08 -0600 Subject: Fw: PDP-11 docs Message-ID: <00a001c7550b$69ac28c0$6600a8c0@BILLING> If anyone wants these, please contact original poster directly. I don't hear much about IAS. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Fontes" To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:11 AM Subject: PDP-11 docs > I have the following, which are yours if you'll cover the shipping from > San Francisco: > RT-11 System User's Guide, 1980 > IAS/RSX-11 MACRO-11 Reference Manual, 1977 > PDP-11 Processor Handbook, 1981 > > The front cover's starting to tear off the handbook, which is a paperback, > but otherwise it's in decent shape The other two manuals are loose-leaf > pages that go into a 3-ring binder. They're in good shape as well. > > Please let me know if you want them. I've come very close to recycling > them a few times. > > --Al From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Feb 20 10:44:49 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:44:49 -0600 Subject: Fw: pdp_11 'stuff' (in the UK) Message-ID: <018301c7550e$70186ae0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote.... > I have some PDP11 in various states to 'dispose of' - can you help me find > some appropriate new home(s) for them, please? They are currently 'stored' > (ie sitting on a pallet in a dusty room) in warehouse premises - in Wigan, > UK - which are due to be vacated later this year (but that will be after i > have left the company, hence the need to 'clear up' before then before > they're scrapped). > > There is one 11/83, two 11/73's and most of a couple of others whose types > i 'm unsure of. > > I can arrange to ship these, preferably to one area in mainland UK but > perhaps to several ... > > If you can help me to get in touch with anyone UK-based who can 'take them > off my hands' i would be most grateful ... Please contact me off-list if interested. Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 20 10:53:25 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:53:25 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 8:39 AM -0600 2/20/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >Jay, > >Any ideas how many messages have been posted to this list since its >creation back in (mumble, mumble - 1987?) ? Around 190,521 >I'm just curious. Sent to the list rather than privately as I >figured others might be interested to know too... The list started in '97, here are the numbers except for the first couple months. I've only got the breakdown for 5 specific years, the rest are a jumble, and I might be missing some. Which means I could be off by 32,000 (Eudora bug might have bit one folder, and I don't have time to check). 72114 27458 - 2001 19907 - 2003 22678 - 2004 28163 - 2005 20201 - 2006 Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at ezwind.net Tue Feb 20 12:39:43 2007 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:39:43 -0600 Subject: pdp-11 stuff in UK Message-ID: <02d501c7551e$7d08d860$6600a8c0@BILLING> It's already spoken for :) I have some more PDP stuff that folks emailed me looking for homes for, I'll try to post those to the list tonight. Jay From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 20 12:40:38 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:40:38 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20/2/07 00:11, "Tony Duell" wrote: > Oh, I don't knwo... A non-working machine gives you the pleasure of > tracing the fault :-) True.....only in this case there isn't an obvious fault..... > firstly, do you know if it's the CPU box or the monitor that's tripping > the mains? CPU box. Even when isolated and alone the PSU will run for 5 mins then something shorts out and trips everything. > or is it trupping it due to earth leakage (prossibly a defective mains > filter capaciotr)? That's what I need to check, if it's anything it'll be a dodgy electrolytic I hope. The Pro PSU has some big buggers in there :) > How many tims do I have to repeat 'Never switch on a classic computer > without doing some PSU tests first' ? Well, normally I do, but I was told this one was a worker. Obviously someone fibbed! I'll try and get on it tonight, it was an education today working out how the PSU came out of the machine....heh..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 12:46:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:46:17 -0600 Subject: Anyone in NW London?... Message-ID: <45DB41F9.3090805@yahoo.co.uk> ... who might be able to pick up and hang on to some NeXT stuff for five weeks or so? We've got an offer of some stuff but it has to be out of the owner's house by next Monday, and I'm not back in the UK until the end of March. I'm hoping Witchy can collect [1] as he thinks he might be off to London later this week sometime, but as this is all a little rushed I thought it might be wise to line up a backup if possible :-) [1] Witchy, did you get my last email with contact details for the guy? My message prior to that one bounced saying that the destination computer wasn't found (which is the second time in the last couple of weeks that's happened) so I guess you're having mail server troubles... cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 20 13:14:17 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:14:17 +0000 Subject: pdp-11 stuff in UK In-Reply-To: <02d501c7551e$7d08d860$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 20/2/07 18:39, "Jay West" wrote: > It's already spoken for :) > > I have some more PDP stuff that folks emailed me looking for homes for, I'll > try to post those to the list tonight. Good stuff! Thanks Jay. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 20 13:16:20 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:16:20 -0800 Subject: ISO Wright-Line tape racks Message-ID: <45DB4904.20801@bitsavers.org> Anyone know of any Wright-Line freestanding tape racks available in the Bay Area? (for 2400ft tapes, 30tape, 5 rack) The Computer History Museum needs a few. Would think there should still be some kicking around somewhere near here. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 20 13:16:32 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:16:32 +0000 Subject: Anyone in NW London?... In-Reply-To: <45DB41F9.3090805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 20/2/07 18:46, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > ... who might be able to pick up and hang on to some NeXT stuff for five weeks > or so? We've got an offer of some stuff but it has to be out of the owner's > house by next Monday, and I'm not back in the UK until the end of March. I'll be in NW London (Uxbridge) tomorrow with my new car, if he's about I can call in. > [1] Witchy, did you get my last email with contact details for the guy? My Just landed now as it happens, dated today at 17:24...I *must* get a new ADSL router for home! The old (new!) netgear keeps locking up...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 20 13:29:58 2007 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:29:58 -0500 Subject: CPUs in What Computer In-Reply-To: <45DB0F62.2020206@kurico.com> References: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> <45DAD4C1.4040208@notms.net> <45DAFB71.5000504@yahoo.co.uk> <45DB0F62.2020206@kurico.com> Message-ID: <20070220192958.GG31302@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great George Currie once stated: > > > >Various CPU types seem to be missing though and it'd be nice to see > >example machines that used those included (Natsemi 32xxx, Motorola 88k > >etc.) > > Actually I think that this is the perfect style of content for a wiki. > It crys for open contributions. Is there one out there already? http://www.flummux.org/cgi-bin/ccwiki.pl Although it's not very active. -spc (But it's there ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 20 13:48:19 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:48:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DA0225.4164.1C668CEC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net>, <45DA0225.4164.1C668CEC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070220114723.R82449@shell.lmi.net> > > Before there were quartz crystal oscillators in watches, Bulova developed > > and sold watches with 360Hz tuning fork oscillators. On Mon, 19 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and before that, there were electric watches that used a > conventional balance wheel as the timing reference. . . . but we still consider the digital watch to be a pretty neat idea From craig at tonkaland.com Tue Feb 20 16:15:40 2007 From: craig at tonkaland.com (Craig Olson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:15:40 -0800 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available Message-ID: <004501c7553c$a82f0140$2901a8c0@craigs> I need a copy of thismanual - where can I go to see it? Thanks! Craig Olson 952-935-8112 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 20 15:27:55 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:27:55 -0800 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available Message-ID: <45DB67DB.6000503@bitsavers.org> > I need a copy of thismanual - where can I go to see it? I have a copy scanned, I'll see about getting it on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cipher From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 20 15:34:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:34:31 -0800 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <20070220114723.R82449@shell.lmi.net> References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net>, <45DA0225.4164.1C668CEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070220114723.R82449@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45DAF8E7.30150.202A77C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2007 at 11:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . but we still consider the digital watch to be a pretty neat idea I'm going to express a very Tony Duell-ish sentiment. I have owned numerous digital watches, including one or two that used LED displays (you didn't check the time very often, because that really drained the battery). But I don't own any now--just a couple of nice self- winding Seikos. Even my digital stopwatch is no more, but my old manual wind model is doing just fine. One by one, my digital watches died from various internal maladies. In the case of the digital stopwatch, the beep that sounded at the end of a countdown decided to stay on continuously. A good mechanical watch will just keep going and going with an occasional clean and lube. I read somewhere that watches themselves are on the decline. Apparently many folks simply use their mobile phone as a time source. Didn't Mozart grumble about being paid with pocket watches instead of money? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:31:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:31:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Feb 19, 7 10:32:12 pm Message-ID: > Before there were quartz crystal oscillators in watches, Bulova developed > and sold watches with 360Hz tuning fork oscillators. I always felt the tuning-fork watehes and clocks [1] violated a basic principle of horology, and that is that the oscillator should be essentially 'free'. In the tuning form movement, IIRC, the fork is linked to a timy pawl that runs on a ratchet gear that then is geard down to drive the hands. Surely putting a possibly varying load on the osciallator is not conducive to goof timekeepiog? [1] I am told that Smiths (in the UK) sold a number of mantel (shelf) clocks with tuning fork movements. I am sort-of looking for one as a curiousity (I don;t care about the case style, or even if there is a case!. They certainly made transitor-maintained balance wheel movements for such clocks (which suffer from the same disadvantage that I've just mentioned). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:33:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:33:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DA0225.4164.1C668CEC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 19, 7 08:01:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 19 Feb 2007 at 22:32, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > > > Before there were quartz crystal oscillators in watches, Bulova developed > > and sold watches with 360Hz tuning fork oscillators. > > ...and before that, there were electric watches that used a > conventional balance wheel as the timing reference. Alaong with movements wtih electrically driven pendulums (pendula?), electrically impulused pendulums, more conventional spring-driven clocks with electric rewinding every frw minutes, etc. Electric/electronic clocks are _another_ of my interests... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:16:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:16:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CPUs in What Computer In-Reply-To: <45DA264A.18E363DB@west.net> from "Marvin Johnston" at Feb 19, 7 10:35:54 pm Message-ID: > http://www.cpushack.net/antique-computers.html > > As they themselves say, the list is far from complete, but it is pretty > interesting. 'Far from complete' is right. I can think of quite a few single-chip CPUs that aren't mentioned at all, and quite a few machines for each of the CPUs thata are there that aren't listed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:21:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:21:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <001e01c7547d$daa6d400$a4a4fea9@win2000> from "Steve Robertson" at Feb 19, 7 06:29:50 pm Message-ID: > > > > NOTE: Most of the 9000/800 series boxes, including the small ones (IE > F20), > > > > Why that series particularly? Many older HP9000s have HPIB ports as > > standard too. > > Because it seems to be the easiest path to making practical use of the tape > drive. I'm not saying it can't be done your way, it's just a matter of OK... I guess tone-of-voice doesn't easily come across. I was asking a genuine question as to why you favoured that particular series of machines. > what's easiest and most practical (for the rest of us). For that matter, I > have read data off HPIB disks and tapes using a HPIB bus analyzer one byte > at a time. Sure it can be done but, it ain't for the faint of heart! > > OK... Quick survey. How many people on the list own a HPIB bus analyzer and > have ever made "real" use of it? I've used a logic analyser to grab data off an HPIB interface.... Now has anoone else ever used the monitor function of the HPIL development ROM in an HP41 to grab data off an HPIL loop? I did -- once! > > So... Assuming you had a HPIB tape drive, 9816, and a PC. Exactly what steps > would be required to transfer data between the PC and 9-track? > > I can tell you what's required to accomplish the same task with an > inexpensive, readily available, HPUX box. > > 1.) FTP the file from PC to HPUX box - Networking is included in the base > HPUX install. Assumeing your PC also has TCP/IP netwoking installed, and an ethernet interface? > 2.) Copy the data to the TAPE drive - HPIB and TAPE drivers are also > included in the base install. Hmm... Question: Can a 9 track tape drive be > set up as a NFS mount? If so, skip step one ;-) > 3.) Have a cold beer while Tony solders together a serial cable to link his > 9816 to the PC. Why do you assume I won't have that cable already made up? When I do some work on the 9816 system, I can assure you that one of the things I'll make will be a cable from the 50 pin microribbon connector (why on earth did HP used that for an RS232 port?) to a DB25. > 4.) Have another beer while Tony writes (both ends) of a kermit-like program > to transfer the data. I have kermit on my PC, I am pretty sure there is a kermit for HP9000/200 machines written in HP-BASIC. Incidentally, I don't have an HP 9-track drive, so all this is academic anyhow. As I said at the sart I was asking a genuine question as to your choice... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:48:01 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:48:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 20, 7 06:40:38 pm Message-ID: > > firstly, do you know if it's the CPU box or the monitor that's tripping > > the mains? > > CPU box. Even when isolated and alone the PSU will run for 5 mins then > something shorts out and trips everything. THat's an odd fault. It's repeatable, yes? In other words you turn it on, it runs for 5 minutes, then trips the mains. You cna then power it down, power it up again and it'll run for another 5 minutes... > > > or is it trupping it due to earth leakage (prossibly a defective mains > > filter capaciotr)? > > That's what I need to check, if it's anything it'll be a dodgy electrolytic > I hope. The Pro PSU has some big buggers in there :) > THe mians filter caps would be plasting or metalised paper types. I've had them fail before, but normally they just go 'bang', emit magic smoke and maybe blow the fuse. > > How many tims do I have to repeat 'Never switch on a classic computer > > without doing some PSU tests first' ? > > Well, normally I do, but I was told this one was a worker. Obviously someone > fibbed! I'll try and get on it tonight, it was an education today working > out how the PSU came out of the machine....heh..... The Pros (and the 'Bow, and Decmate II) are all designed to come into modules without tools. But be warned that setting up the machine out of the case in order to do tests is often non-trivial (I rememebr, bitterly, the 'bow PSU balanased upside-down alongside the mainboard, etc, when I was tracing a memory cotnrol fault in that machine). Also, there's at least one tamperproof Torx screw in the PSU.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:25:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:25:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Feb 19, 7 05:45:02 pm Message-ID: > > At 12:11 AM +0000 2/20/07, Tony Duell wrote: > >How many tims do I have to repeat 'Never switch on a classic computer > >without doing some PSU tests first' ? > > Face it Tony, someone is always going to be doing it. Don't tell me I was asking a semi-rhetroical question, OK :-) > that you've *never* done it. :^) Sometimes it's easy to forget in I did it _once_, many years ago. That's when I learnt it was a _bad_ idea :-) > the excitement of a new system. Actually, I don't think I've ever plugged in a newly-acquired classic computer in the last 10 years, say, without inspecting it inside and testing the PSU if at all possible. > > Actually how about a clarification here. Are you saying *ALWAYS* > test the PS before turning the system? Or just when it's been idle > for a while? I do know when the time comes for me to power my > PDP-11/44 back on, I'll be testing the PS first (I've not been able > to use it for over 6 years). I don;'t do it _every_ time I turn the machine on, sure... Basically, the times I do said inspection/test are : 1) When I first get the machine 2) Adter a long time (months/years) of non-use 3) After any other work or repair in the PSU area 4) After moving the machine a significant distance (e.g. taking it to a computer club meeting or VCF (I wish) for a demostration). Things can shake loose and short in transit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 15:50:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:50:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <20070220114723.R82449@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 20, 7 11:48:19 am Message-ID: > . . . but we still consider the digital watch to be a pretty neat idea I beleive there was at least one mechanical (spring-driven, balance wheel oscillator) digital watch. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 16:02:07 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:02:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <200702202202.l1KM27UV025448@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: **>> snip <<** > A good mechanical watch will just keep going and > going with an > occasional clean and lube. > > I read somewhere that watches themselves are on th e > decline. > Apparently many folks simply use their mobile phon e > as a time source. You took the words right out of my mouth. Since I got my 1st mobile around 2001 I haven't used watches at all. Before 2001 I never really used watches that much anyway. I never needed them at school and didn't go out much during my teen years. Infact, apart from one my grandparents had (with day of the month on it), I never used watches until I left secondary school (summer 1996) and had to go out looking for work etc. (I didn't want to do further education - sixth form, college and Uni etc.) > > Didn't Mozart grumble about being paid with pocket > watches instead of > money? > > Cheers, > Chuck > But surely the watches would have been worth more than money, to the right person of course? Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Feb 20 15:59:03 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:59:03 -0800 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DAF8E7.30150.202A77C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702192300.l1JN0EQx057926@keith.ezwind.net>, <45DA0225.4164.1C668CEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070220114723.R82449@shell.lmi.net> <45DAF8E7.30150.202A77C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DB6F27.10107@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >One by one, my digital watches died from various internal maladies. > > All of my watches are still working back to the first quartz electronic thru the Seiko LCD that I have had forever. I guess having a father who was a watchmaker helps in that regard. None of them failed in such a way they were more than adjustment and batteries. Sometimes those who didn't have watchmakers replace their batteries would leave the cases open to leaks which over time would kill off the circuitry. Mechanical timepieces are less prone to that as most people have no reason to open the cases and mess with the insides. I know my dad always sealed the cases properly, as he had the proper seals to make sure they always worked. I wore out a lot of watchbands on several of them. I now just use the time on my cell phone when I need time, as most of the watches I have are too valuable to me as keepsakes to wear, and cell phones have very good time. Also I have several quartz timing test units, but have never tried them with any oscillators other than watches. I guess I should try to see how the M80 Vibrograf or Renotest would work with a purely electronic device. They both read out drift figures as well as rate information for adjustments. Sorry for the topic drift. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Feb 20 16:22:26 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:22:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702202202.l1KM27UV025448@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200702202202.l1KM27UV025448@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200702202225.RAA12861@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Apparently many folks simply use their mobile phone as a time >> source. > Since I got my 1st mobile around 2001 I haven't used watches at all. Heh. My watch died recently, and since then I have been using my phone as my mobile time source. I want the watch back. (Too bad it's broken; I need to find another.) Why? The phone is significantly harder to get to (have to extract it from a pocket, versus just turning my wrist), and the phone is significantly harder to read under most circumstances. There's also an element of "use the right tool for the job", but that's much weaker. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Feb 20 16:35:35 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:35:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702202239.RAA13006@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> OK... Quick survey. How many people on the list own a HPIB bus >> analyzer and have ever made "real" use of it? > I've used a logic analyser to grab data off an HPIB interface.... Speaking of HPIB.... I wanted to build interface electronics so that one of my "modern" machines could act as HPIB disk for my hp300s. While I was working on this, I suspect I managed to short something to soemthing else unfortunate and blow a driver. It stopped working even when my electronics were out of the loop, and one of the bits semeed to have developed a stuck-at fault, hence my suspicion. Is there anyone here who knows enough about typical HPIB hardware of the hp300 era to be able to take a list of chip markings and tell me which one is probably the relevant driver? Preferably, also tell me enough that I can patch on a substitute (if necessary by stealing a driver chip from other hardware - for example, I've got a dead HPIB disk drive which I could raid for chips at need)? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 20 16:47:05 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:47:05 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20/2/07 21:48, "Tony Duell" wrote: > THat's an odd fault. It's repeatable, yes? In other words you turn it on, > it runs for 5 minutes, then trips the mains. You cna then power it down, > power it up again and it'll run for another 5 minutes... Yep. Every time. I haven't timed it exactly, but it will run for minutes then give up; last night I had enough time to start playing with DCL and leave it for a bit while I dug a manual out. Then everything went black :) > THe mians filter caps would be plasting or metalised paper types. I've > had them fail before, but normally they just go 'bang', emit magic smoke > and maybe blow the fuse. Oh yes, plus the classic 'blown mains cap' smell. This one will trip and run, trip and run. > The Pros (and the 'Bow, and Decmate II) are all designed to come into > modules without tools. But be warned that setting up the machine out of I know all about the 'bow and Decmate (wrt maintenance, dismantling etc) but nothing about the Pro, today I learned lots :) Last time I used a Pro was the late 80s as a console to a VAX 8550! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 16:53:25 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:53:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <200702202253.l1KMrP6N027954@keith.ezwind.net> --- der Mouse wrote: > >> Apparently many folks simply use their mobile > phone as a time > >> source. > > Since I got my 1st mobile around 2001 I haven't > used watches at all. > > Heh. > > My watch died recently, and since then I have been > using my phone as my > mobile time source. I want the watch back. (Too > bad it's broken; I > need to find another.) > > Why? > > The phone is significantly harder to get to (have to > extract it from a > pocket, versus just turning my wrist), and the pho ne > is significantly > harder to read under most circumstances. > My first mobile yes, but not my current one which has a much better LCD display and backlighting. Oh yes, speaking of backlighting.... it can also double as a torch when in the dark :) It drains the battery faster sure, but it usually only needs charging once every 2 days (battery should last for 1000 charges or so). > There's also an element of "use the right tool for > the job", but that's > much weaker. > Indeed. If I needed a stopwatch then I would need a digital watch, or a erm... stopwatch! > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc. ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E > E8 B3 27 4B > Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 17:59:14 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:59:14 -0600 Subject: Anyone in NW London?... In-Reply-To: <45DB41F9.3090805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DB41F9.3090805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DB8B52.5010707@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > ... who might be able to pick up and hang on to some NeXT stuff for five > weeks or so? Now all sorted out by the looks of it :) thanks, Jules From wizard at voyager.net Tue Feb 20 18:17:42 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:17:42 -0500 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702202225.RAA12861@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200702202202.l1KM27UV025448@keith.ezwind.net> <200702202225.RAA12861@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1172017062.22013.24.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 17:22 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > The phone is significantly harder to get to (have to extract it from a > pocket, versus just turning my wrist), and the phone is significantly > harder to read under most circumstances. > > There's also an element of "use the right tool for the job", but that's > much weaker. Personal taste issues are important, at LEAST on the items you carry around. I have another reason. I work in insulated buildings, and SOME of them are insulated well enough that the signal cannot reach the phone. In those buildings, I don't have time information at all on my phone. Unfortunately, MY phone just shows what it gets from the service. No service = no clock information. I have a watch that sets itself regularly from time standard radio signals. If I am somewhere without such signals, it just coasts on in its uncorrected form, and will re-synch when it next gets the signal. It's also solar powered, so I neither need to buy replacement piles/batteries or wind it, or perform wrist aerobics to keep it running. It has never moved away from the "full" indicator in over a year of use. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Feb 20 19:42:16 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:42:16 -0500 Subject: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... In-Reply-To: <45DB67DB.6000503@bitsavers.org> References: <45DB67DB.6000503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45DBA378.6000807@atarimuseum.com> I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was given a pair of 19" Rack mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some Vax equipment. If anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, they are yours for free, just come and pick them up. Curt From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 20 20:11:57 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:11:57 -0500 Subject: VCF East 4.0, another update... Message-ID: <001d01c7555d$aa2aa730$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, I'm getting an early start on signing up VCF East exhibitors / vendors / speakers. If you're interested and not already on our local (MARCH) list, then please contact me off-list. - Evan ----------------------------- Prior update: In addition to Chuck Peddle, our panel (in the morning of June 9) will feature Bil Herd, Bob Russell, and Dave Haynie .... Along with several of the early models (and even some ultra-rare prototypes) on display .... In case the panelists have a sudden urge to demo anything. ALSO: there WILL be a second day! The official dates are now June 9-10. Location: InfoAge Science Center (www.infoage.org), Wall, N.J. .... Sponsored once again by MARCH (www.midatlanticretro.org). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 20:25:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:25:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] In-Reply-To: <200702202239.RAA13006@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 20, 7 05:35:35 pm Message-ID: > > >> OK... Quick survey. How many people on the list own a HPIB bus > >> analyzer and have ever made "real" use of it? > > I've used a logic analyser to grab data off an HPIB interface.... > > Speaking of HPIB.... > > I wanted to build interface electronics so that one of my "modern" > machines could act as HPIB disk for my hp300s. While I was working on > this, I suspect I managed to short something to soemthing else > unfortunate and blow a driver. It stopped working even when my > electronics were out of the loop, and one of the bits semeed to have > developed a stuck-at fault, hence my suspicion. > > Is there anyone here who knows enough about typical HPIB hardware of > the hp300 era to be able to take a list of chip markings and tell me > which one is probably the relevant driver? Preferably, also tell me What I would do is trace back from the data pins of the HPIB connector (IIRC that's pins 1-4 and 13-16 of the 24 pin Microribbon connector). On most modern-ish machines (anything since the 9830 :-)), there is only one chip connected to those lines, and that's the HPIN data buffer. One common type is the 75160, which comes in a 20 pin DIL package, or I guess some kind of SMD thing. But HP did make their own ASIC HPIB buffer chips -- I forget the number, but it's a 40 pin DIL thing. Anyway, if you find what chip those signals go to, post the number (even if it's an HP house number -- 1820-xxxx) and I'll see if I can identify it. > enough that I can patch on a substitute (if necessary by stealing a > driver chip from other hardware - for example, I've got a dead HPIB > disk drive which I could raid for chips at need)? There aren't that many HPIB buffer chips in common use. There's the TI set (75160/75161/75162), the HP custom one, the various Motorola ones (I forget the numbers), the Intel one (8293), and that's about it. Oh, there's the kludge way, using open-collector TTL as drivers (or before that, discrete transistors), and 7414's as receivers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 20 20:40:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:40:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 20, 7 10:47:05 pm Message-ID: > > On 20/2/07 21:48, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > THat's an odd fault. It's repeatable, yes? In other words you turn it on, > > it runs for 5 minutes, then trips the mains. You cna then power it down, > > power it up again and it'll run for another 5 minutes... > > Yep. Every time. I haven't timed it exactly, but it will run for minutes > then give up; last night I had enough time to start playing with DCL and > leave it for a bit while I dug a manual out. Then everything went black :) Really odd. My first thougth is that it is a mains filter capacitor that's breaking down. Some of them are designed to be 'self healing' in that if the dielectric breaks down, the current will then vapourise the metal in that area, causing the capacitor to carry on working. Of course that was before the days of those over-sensitive RCDs, etc. I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. Perhaps run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. I can't rememebr if this PSU uses separate filter capacitors (in which case change them [1]), a mains filter module (I wonder if you can get the same type still), or what. [1] RS or Farnell sell them. Class X between live and neutral, class Y between live or neutral and earth IIRC. > > The Pros (and the 'Bow, and Decmate II) are all designed to come into > > modules without tools. But be warned that setting up the machine out of > > I know all about the 'bow and Decmate (wrt maintenance, dismantling etc) but I thought the PRo came apart in essentially the same way. The PSU is on top of the shcssis and held down by a toggle clamp, isn't it? -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 21:15:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:15:29 -0600 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702202225.RAA12861@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200702202202.l1KM27UV025448@keith.ezwind.net> <200702202225.RAA12861@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45DBB951.7020009@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > My watch died recently, and since then I have been using my phone as my > mobile time source. I want the watch back. (Too bad it's broken; I > need to find another.) Hmm, I got sick of replacing watch straps every couple of months - for the last five years or so it's lived (strapless) in my wallet. It's given the security guys at airports a fit a couple of times now :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 20 21:25:08 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:25:08 -0600 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DBBB94.1040205@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > My first thougth is that it is a mains filter capacitor that's breaking > down. Some of them are designed to be 'self healing' in that if the > dielectric breaks down, the current will then vapourise the metal in that > area, causing the capacitor to carry on working. Of course that was > before the days of those over-sensitive RCDs, etc. This is where we find there's a temperature-controlled fan or somesuch in the machine which kicks in after a few minutes and for some reason causes the PSU to throw a wobbly... Agreed - weird problem. Out of interest, if you power the machine up and then immediately power it down normally (before it's had the chance to do so itself :) does it still upset the house mains? Just asking as maybe that's something you haven't tried yet... From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Feb 20 21:15:39 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:15:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702210331.WAA14994@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Is there anyone here who knows enough about typical HPIB hardware of >> the hp300 era to be able to take a list of chip markings and tell me >> which one is probably the relevant driver? > What I would do is trace back from the data pins of the HPIB > connector (IIRC that's pins 1-4 and 13-16 of the 24 pin Microribbon > connector). On most modern-ish machines (anything since the 9830 > :-)), there is only one chip connected to those lines, and that's the > HPIN data buffer. Then I guess this isn't modern-ish. :-) The suspect hardware is a 98625A; what tracing I've managed to do seems to lead back to four 16-pin DIPs labeled with an HP code (1820-2058, to be specific). > One common type is the 75160, which comes in a 20 pin DIL package, or > I guess some kind of SMD thing. This hardware is entirely through-hole DIP. Not a suface-mount part in sight. Fairly low-density through-hole DIP, too - on a board measuring 17x14 cm, there are only 31 chips: one of 48 pins, three of 20 pins, fourteen of 16 pins, and and thirteen of 14 pins (well, thirteen 14-pin DIP packages; I think two are resistor packs rather than logic), plus two ten-pin SIP resistor packs, a two-switch DIP switch bank, a five-switch DIP switch bank, a small pot, four discrete resistors, seventeen discrete capacitors, and a crystal oscillator. Oh, and card-edge fingers on one side and a back panel with an HPIB connector on the other. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ohh at drizzle.com Tue Feb 20 22:17:11 2007 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:17:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking For DEC TTY Connectors Message-ID: Hey, all: I'm looking for two pair of the sort-of-Molex-like connectors DEC used for connecting Teletypes to minis in the late '60s/early '70s. A DEC drawing designates them as "Mate-n-Lock" connectors, T04915; my web search for them turned up a lot of connectors, but not this type. Here's a photo of a set, if it helps: http://flyingmoose.org/tty_conn.jpg Are these still manufactured? Does anyone have two sets in spares, or otherwise know where I can find a couple? Thanks in advance for any help! -O.- From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Tue Feb 20 22:55:13 2007 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:55:13 -0500 Subject: NeXT external CDROM drive In-Reply-To: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house > (and so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether > it was just an off-the-shelf unit. It's essentially a badge-engineered Apple external CD. I have a few of both... mostly because the Apple parts are 100% the same so I use them to repair the NeXT drives. I can dig up the appropriate model numbers if you want. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 23:07:30 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:07:30 -0500 Subject: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... In-Reply-To: <45DBA378.6000807@atarimuseum.com> References: <45DB67DB.6000503@bitsavers.org> <45DBA378.6000807@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was given a pair of 19" Rack > mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some Vax equipment. If > anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, they are yours for > free, just come and pick them up. I need these like a hole in the head - but if available... -- Will From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Feb 20 23:23:59 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:23:59 -0600 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <200702181038.l1IAcZkg009830@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702181038.l1IAcZkg009830@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45DBD76F.4040409@pacbell.net> Continuing my story of trying to recover the contents of the hard drive in my Horizon 8/16 system, I took Dave Dunfield's advice and wrote a small program to read each sector from the hard drive and dump it. 30 MB of disk data at 9600 baud, printed as ASCII hex. It took a while. The mystery remains -- what is it? There is no plain-text to be found anywhere ... not even accidental sequences. I thought that perhaps it is a lot of binary data. Some of it must be code. Searching the hex for "CD0500" (which is "CALL 0005", the CP/M call vector) has no hits. I know the disk is good because I can write a sector and read back what I wrote. The non-destructive drive tests (basically read each sector and see if any errors crop up) pass. Even stripping the msb produces blocks of data that look like the following text. "." represents unprintable characters. ........."E..(P @.....'N.:tiS'N. 9rdI.&M.6mZ4hQ"D..#G..:tiS'O.}ztiS&M.7n]:ti R$I.%J.)R%K.,Y2eJ.)R$H.#F..4hP @ .....1bD..$I.&L.0aC...9reJ.(Q#F. .7n\8p`@.....-[7o_>|ysfM.7n\8qcG ..|ysfM.6lX0aC...} {vmZ4iS&L.2eJ.*U*T(P A....9rdH.! B...%J.)S'O.?~}ztiS'O.>|xqbE..(P This is a typical block, one of almost 60K. You prefer hex? OK, here is another block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suppose it might be 8086 binary, as turbodos supported both Z80 and 8086 CPUs in the system, even mixed, but then again, my machine only has Z80s, no 8086s. Unless a genius comes along and recognizes this, I'm going to wipe the drive, install TurboDOS, and not look back. Finally, I have to give kudos to Dave Dunfield for his great NST utilities and his floppy disk archive. It allowed me to mint some new NSDOS and CP/M images for the machine after my only CP/M boot disk got trashed. http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 20 23:47:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:47:56 -0800 Subject: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] In-Reply-To: References: <200702202239.RAA13006@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 20, 7 05:35:35 pm, Message-ID: <45DB6C8C.26193.21EE3100@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2007 at 2:25, Tony Duell wrote: > There aren't that many HPIB buffer chips in common use. There's the TI > set (75160/75161/75162), the HP custom one, the various Motorola ones (I > forget the numbers), the Intel one (8293), and that's about it. Oh, > there's the kludge way, using open-collector TTL as drivers (or before > that, discrete transistors), and 7414's as receivers. If you're communicating to a single device, it's possible to use a PC paralell port (particularly a bidirectional one) to do the job. A very long time ago, I needed to draw a color pie chart. I had a copy of Supercalc and a friend loaned me an HP 5-pen (IIRC) plotter that he'd picked up at the going-out-of-business sale of the Control Data retail stores. I had a PC XT at the time. The problem was that the plotter was GPIB only. I hacked the parallel port on the IBM MDA to do bidirectional I/O (easy--just a cut and a jumper). I wrote a TSR that hooked the parallel port BIOS interrupt and translated the codes intended for a parallel-interface plotter to GPIB strings. I told Supercalc that it was driving the parallel-port version of the plotter and bingo--I had my charts. You can probably still find the code in one of the SIMTEL archives, but I can't remember what I called it--something like LPTHPIB, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 21 00:11:02 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:11:02 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702210611.l1L6B9w2044544@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:47:05 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 20/2/07 21:48, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> THat's an odd fault. It's repeatable, yes? In other words you turn it on, >> it runs for 5 minutes, then trips the mains. You cna then power it down, >> power it up again and it'll run for another 5 minutes... >Yep. Every time. I haven't timed it exactly, but it will run for minutes >then give up; last night I had enough time to start playing with DCL and >leave it for a bit while I dug a manual out. Then everything went black :) > I had a problem like that, where I had a rack that was drawing close to the limit on a 20 amp breaker, when I added the last system to the stack the problem began, after a few minutes of runtime the breaker would heat up and pop, I swaped the breaker out with a different one of the same size and it that held just fine. The circuit I moved the week breaker to, normally only runs 7 or 8 amps and it never failed with the light load. I had a second breaker problem. After an extended power failure, I found that the circuit would not carry both the normal startup load with the additional of 2 large UPS's at full charge rate on near dead batteries during startup. Just about the time everything booted and came back up, the breaker would have heated up and poped. I pulled the external battery packs off, and let them charge the internal batteries first and then added one external pack at a time, untill I could get a larger circuit run to the rack. While you are at it, you might want to take a clamp on amp meter and balance the load between phases. You may be pulling more power on one phase. If you pull the voltage down on one side or phase with an unballanced load, the current load will go up and breakers will be more likely to overheat and pop. I was in a 3 phase box just yesterday that was running 17a, 23a, and 37a on each of the 3 phases. The electric company bills based on the max load on any single phase, by moving about 10a of load from phase 3 to phase 1, we dropped the billable load the electric company sees from 37a to 27a, close to a third. That should look good on next months electric bill. Just a thought, back under my rock .... The other Bob From bear at typewritten.org Wed Feb 21 00:28:37 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:28:37 -0800 Subject: NeXT external CDROM drive In-Reply-To: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DB0B7E.9080000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <2877027B-F289-42E9-A222-3E9BD7889ACC@typewritten.org> On Feb 20, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house > (and so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether > it was just an off-the-shelf unit. It's physically identical to the caddy-load 2x Sony OEM unit that made the rounds as (for example) the Apple CD300 and DEC RRD42, except for the black casing, black plastics, and NeXT logo pasted up front. ok bear From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 00:32:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:32:48 -0800 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <45DBD76F.4040409@pacbell.net> References: <200702181038.l1IAcZkg009830@hosting.monisys.ca>, <45DBD76F.4040409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45DB7710.24809.22174537@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2007 at 23:23, Jim Battle wrote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y guess is that this might well be a test pattern. One obvious clue is that there are too many '1' bits for code--either 8086 or 8080/Z80.Even complementing the data doesn't produce anything more useful. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 21 00:40:54 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:40:54 -0800 Subject: Looking For DEC TTY Connectors References: Message-ID: <45DBE967.6E5C5DF4@cs.ubc.ca> "O. Sharp" wrote: > I'm looking for two pair of the sort-of-Molex-like connectors DEC used for > connecting Teletypes to minis in the late '60s/early '70s. A DEC drawing > designates them as "Mate-n-Lock" connectors, T04915; my web search for > them turned up a lot of connectors, but not this type. Here's a photo of > a set, if it helps: > > http://flyingmoose.org/tty_conn.jpg > > Are these still manufactured? Does anyone have two sets in spares, or > otherwise know where I can find a couple? I have half of what you are looking for: about 2-dozen cables, each cable being 4-conductor with a connector on one end. The connectors are those with the big flat tab, shown on the left in your photo. The pins in use are the same as in your photo (2,3,5 & 7, depending on which end you count from), so presumably these were used for the same purpose. It's just surplus cable to me, so if it's of any help without the other connector, let me know. Location is Vancouver, Canada. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 21 01:10:27 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:10:27 -0600 Subject: database of PC software release dates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DBF063.3000702@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > Is there a database somewhere that attempts to catalog the > introduction date of software for the IBM PC and compatibles? www.mobygames.com, but that's only for entertainment software. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Feb 20 14:26:30 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:26:30 -0500 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <0JDS00G4N3BURPH4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:48:19 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > Before there were quartz crystal oscillators in watches, Bulova developed >> > and sold watches with 360Hz tuning fork oscillators. Otherwise know as Accutron Watches. Very fine and accurate. >On Mon, 19 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ...and before that, there were electric watches that used a >> conventional balance wheel as the timing reference. Before that (mt Cessna still has one) there were clocks that used A solenoid and contact to wind a mainspring for the usual wound clock style balance wheel and escapement. >.. . . but we still consider the digital watch to be a pretty neat idea Indeed. Allison From t_wtom at qualcomm.com Tue Feb 20 19:39:50 2007 From: t_wtom at qualcomm.com (Watson, Tom) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:39:50 -0800 Subject: Wyse terminals using same hardware. Message-ID: <56A271EBD9DF1A4AA4ADDF5075FBB3FB0213BF0E@NAEX03.na.qualcomm.com> Previously on this channel...... >>>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007, David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007, Golan Klinger wrote: > > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > > I have a fondness for the Wyse 85 and I was wondering if anyone here has > > > one in decent condition to get rid of. > > > > I share your fondness for that particular terminal. I'm not sure what > > it is about the Wyse 85 but I just love them. My last one died a few > > years ago and my Wyse 60 just isn't up to snuff. Considering how many > > were made/sold, it's odd that they're so hard to find. > > I find the Wyse 50 on Ebay all the time, frequently newly refurbished. > Do you still have the dead 85? Since the 50 is externally identical to > the 85, do you think it would be possible to turn a 50 into an 85 with > some rom swapping? Whoops. They're not identical. I've unearthed a Wyse 99gt with bad screenburn and nasty case discoloration. Seems close enough for my purposes. <<<<< Yes, Wyse made some terminals that WERE the same, just different PROMS. The Wyse-75 and Wyse-50 were the SAME hardware. You can convert a Wyse 50 (weird escape sequences) to a Wyse-75 (nice VT-100 type escape sequences) with a bit of work. I've done it very successfully (it was a few years ago, in a previous life). Steps: 1) Have a Wyse 75 nearby that can be "borrowed". You will return it in its original condition. 2) Have the Wyse 50 (soon to be a Wyse 75) around as well. 3) Get a couple of EPROMS that are the same as the ones inside the Wyse 50/75. At the moment I don't remember, but a pair of 2764's sounds familiar. 4) Open up the Wy-75's logic board and get access to the nice socketed prom chips. 5) Mark the chips and their sockets to make sure you don't fudge them in the wrong place. 6) Make copies of these chips in your EPROMS. Be aware that if you don't have high enough speed chips, the unit you are "modding" might NOT work in 132 column mode. 7) Place these chips in the Wy-50's board where they came from the WY-75. 8) (Here it gets a bit tricky!) Remove the EEPROM (it is a 16 pin chip and socketed) from the Wy-75 and put it in the Wy-50's socket. Save the Wy-50's EEPROM for a step further down. 9) Power up the Wy-50 (now a Wy-75) and get into the setup menu. Note that the keytops are in a few different places, but since you have a Wy-75, just make legends for that copy the keycaps. 10) With power ON (careful now) gently remove the EEPROM chip inserted in step 8. 11) With the power STILL on insert (careful now) the EEPROM chip from the original WY-50 back into the socket. 12) Since you are in the setup menu, do a "save". This saves the Wy-75 stuff into the EEPROM and makes sure that bits are set to allow the Wy-75 to work. If you DON'T do this, the terminal WON'T power up in a useful state AT ALL! 13) Put the original Wy-75 parts back into the "donor" wy-75 and re-assemble it. They won't notice ANY difference as you haven't changed anything! 14) Re-assemble the former Wy-50 (now a nice functional Wy-75) and add some labels to the keyboard for the keys that are different from the Wy-75 (there are a few). 15) Be happy. You just upgraded your Wy-50 to a Wy-75. Enjoy the nice VT-100 style escape codes. Note that some of the "F keys" (F1-F6 as I remember) have specific functions and are NOT programmable. So, there you go. Yes it is the same hardware. The Wyse 75 firmware looks in the EEPROM to see that you started out that way, and wedges if not. This is the reason for the dance shown above. I tried it without the EEPROM dance and it DID NOT work. Then I figured it out. I didn't have an EEPROM (2401??) programmer, so I couldn't clone that part, but since the above works (be very very careful), it shouldn't be a problem. As the saying goes: "West and Welaxation at Wast ha ha ha ha..." (insert Elmer Fudd voice here). -- Tom Watson Generic Signature t_wtom at qualcomm.com (I'm at work now) From useddec at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 01:39:02 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:39:02 -0600 Subject: Looking For DEC TTY Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60702202339r716dbff5hb2fd1e10cc39458b@mail.gmail.com> Dec used them for 20ma terminals. I have some of the cables with berg connectors on one end to plug into M865, M8650, M7800, etc., and some with the mate-n-lock on both ends. It might take a few days to dig them up. Paul Anderson On 2/20/07, O. Sharp wrote: > > > Hey, all: > > I'm looking for two pair of the sort-of-Molex-like connectors DEC used for > connecting Teletypes to minis in the late '60s/early '70s. A DEC drawing > designates them as "Mate-n-Lock" connectors, T04915; my web search for > them turned up a lot of connectors, but not this type. Here's a photo of > a set, if it helps: > > http://flyingmoose.org/tty_conn.jpg > > Are these still manufactured? Does anyone have two sets in spares, or > otherwise know where I can find a couple? > > Thanks in advance for any help! > > -O.- > > From lee at geekdot.com Wed Feb 21 02:05:39 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:05:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system Message-ID: <4246.172.188.31.57.1172045139.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Unless a genius comes along and recognizes this, I'm going to wipe > the drive, install TurboDOS, and not look back. Is there any place potential geniuses can get all this image data? Lee. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Feb 21 06:56:21 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:56:21 -0600 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <45DC4120.1060808@pacbell.net> References: <4246.172.188.31.57.1172045139.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <45DC4120.1060808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <45DC4175.5060404@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Lee Davison wrote: >>> Unless a genius comes along and recognizes this, I'm going to wipe >>> the drive, install TurboDOS, and not look back. >> >> Is there any place potential geniuses can get all this image data? >> >> Lee. > > Lee, > > The 30 MB drive is partitioned into two logical drives under turbodos. I > gave up about 1/4 the way through the B partition. A looks > indistinguishable from this, other than being 4x larger since it is the > full partition. > Dang, I can't believe I fell for that again. Sorry jay for sending a large attachment. Lee, I'll try again, this time to you. From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 21 07:51:14 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:51:14 -0500 Subject: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system In-Reply-To: <45DBD76F.4040409@pacbell.net> References: <200702181038.l1IAcZkg009830@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200702211350.l1LDonvH028085@hosting.monisys.ca> > Continuing my story of trying to recover the contents of the hard drive > in my Horizon 8/16 system, I took Dave Dunfield's advice and wrote a > small program to read each sector from the hard drive and dump it. 30 > MB of disk data at 9600 baud, printed as ASCII hex. It took a while. > > The mystery remains -- what is it? > > There is no plain-text to be found anywhere ... not even accidental > sequences. I thought that perhaps it is a lot of binary data. Some of > it must be code. Searching the hex for "CD0500" (which is "CALL 0005", > the CP/M call vector) has no hits. I agree with Chuck ... this is probably as test pattern. I converted your HEX section to binary, and ran it through about a dozen disassemblers for various CPUs of the era, and found nothing that looked like code. Tried complimenting, reversing bit positions, and still nothing that looks like code - tried droppng the high bit on all of these and didn't see any recognizable text either. Perhaps the former owned did a read/write hard drive test before dcomissioning he system to remove his data from it? (or did a read/write test when installing it, and never did get around to using it). Dave PS: Thanks for the N* TurboDos images, I've just put them up on the site, along with several other N* images that I have had pending. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 21 08:34:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:34:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: ferric chloride...a little off topic In-Reply-To: <45D9F5E5.11439.1C36B5E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <668369.98017.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> you can buy the stuff in powder form. As such they're usually supplied in "hobbyist" quantities from ads in Nuts and Volts and similar periodicals. I don't have specific vendors, sorry. Maybe the Thomas Registry could help for larger quantities, but it seems tomes like that are going the way of all flesh. They're probably online though. Of course Radio Shack sells the itty bitty bottles. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Feb 2007 at 20:26, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a good supplier (in the US) of > ferric chloride for > > etching? I'm looking for one or five gallon > containers. > > When I was doing more of my own PCB work, I'd just > buy the stuff from > my local chemical supply place. I'd buy the > technical grade, which > came in large chunks (just add water) that came by > the drumfull. I > seem to remember that it's also used in sewage > treatment--so if you > have contacts there, you might be able to score > some. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From kth at srv.net Wed Feb 21 10:17:26 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:17:26 -0700 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DC7096.2080903@srv.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 20/2/07 21:48, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > >> THat's an odd fault. It's repeatable, yes? In other words you turn it on, >> it runs for 5 minutes, then trips the mains. You cna then power it down, >> power it up again and it'll run for another 5 minutes... >> > > Yep. Every time. I haven't timed it exactly, but it will run for minutes > then give up; last night I had enough time to start playing with DCL and > leave it for a bit while I dug a manual out. Then everything went black :) > > >> THe mians filter caps would be plasting or metalised paper types. I've >> had them fail before, but normally they just go 'bang', emit magic smoke >> and maybe blow the fuse. >> > > Oh yes, plus the classic 'blown mains cap' smell. This one will trip and > run, trip and run. > Could it be something other than the Pro? What other items are on that breaker? Could you just be running too much stuff, or could the breaker be marginal? Many breakers don't blow immediately, but allow a short time of slightly high current before they blow, which is giving you the 5 minutes. Try unplugging some other stuff on that breaker (fridge, water heater, other computers, clocks, etc.) and see if that affects the run time. If you could wire a much lower-power breaker between the blowing breaker and the Pro, then you can see if it trips first. But doesn't the pro have a built in breaker? (Black button right next to the power cord) I'd expect the breaker built into the Pro should trip before it would pop your house breaker if there was a PSU problem. >> The Pros (and the 'Bow, and Decmate II) are all designed to come into >> modules without tools. But be warned that setting up the machine out of >> > > I know all about the 'bow and Decmate (wrt maintenance, dismantling etc) but > nothing about the Pro, today I learned lots :) Last time I used a Pro was > the late 80s as a console to a VAX 8550! > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 10:51:51 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:51:51 -0800 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <0JDS00G4N3BURPH4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JDS00G4N3BURPH4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <45DC0827.24721.244E039C@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2007 at 15:26, Allison wrote: > Before that (mt Cessna still has one) there were clocks that used > A solenoid and contact to wind a mainspring for the usual wound > clock style balance wheel and escapement. Used in automobiles (at least US ones) for donkey's years--and at least in the case of US cars, one of the dashboard instruments that failed first. But that doesn't count as using an electrical timing element, but rather as using electricity in place of a hand-wound timer. Curious that a clock from some sort of Russian military vehicle that I obtained was still manual-wind. I can remember seeing at least one project for a crystal-controlled timing source using tubes (I think it used push-pull 6F6's in the output stage) to run an ordinary synchronous-motor wall clock. This would probably be during the 1940s or 50s. Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft located on the back? Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 21 12:13:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:13:19 -0800 Subject: Datapoint 2200 drawing package on bitsavers Message-ID: <45DC8BBF.2080707@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/2200 I'm interested in finding other Datapoint technical documents for the archive. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 21 12:26:49 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:26:49 +0000 Subject: NeXT external CDROM drive In-Reply-To: <2877027B-F289-42E9-A222-3E9BD7889ACC@typewritten.org> Message-ID: On 21/2/07 06:28, "r.stricklin" wrote: > > On Feb 20, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house >> (and so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether >> it was just an off-the-shelf unit. > > It's physically identical to the caddy-load 2x Sony OEM unit that > made the rounds as (for example) the Apple CD300 and DEC RRD42, > except for the black casing, black plastics, and NeXT logo pasted up > front. ....and perhaps disappointingly it's also a mono screened logo rather than a stick-on colour one! Otherwise it's a black RRD42 with a NeXT sticker on the bottom :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From lrl at crisis.com Wed Feb 21 12:22:36 2007 From: lrl at crisis.com (Larry lehman) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:22:36 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 42, Issue 53 References: <200702211802.l1LI273s095908@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <025a01c755e5$45eed420$6801a8c0@larry> HP 98625A Print set and parts list is on Bitsavers. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 42, Issue 53 > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... > (Curt - Atari Museum) > 2. VCF East 4.0, another update... (Evan Koblentz) > 3. Re: New DEC museum entry :D (Jules Richardson) > 4. Re: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] (der Mouse) > 5. Looking For DEC TTY Connectors (O. Sharp) > 6. Re: NeXT external CDROM drive (Gavin Thomas Nicol) > 7. Re: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... > (William Donzelli) > 8. Re: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system (Jim Battle) > 9. Re: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] (Chuck Guzis) > 10. Re: New DEC museum entry :D (Bob Bradlee) > 11. Re: NeXT external CDROM drive (r.stricklin) > 12. Re: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system (Chuck Guzis) > 13. Re: Looking For DEC TTY Connectors (Brent Hilpert) > 14. Re: database of PC software release dates? (Jim Leonard) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:42:16 -0500 > From: Curt - Atari Museum > Subject: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <45DBA378.6000807 at atarimuseum.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was given a pair of 19" Rack > mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some Vax equipment. If > anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, they are yours for > free, just come and pick them up. > > > > Curt > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:11:57 -0500 > From: "Evan Koblentz" > Subject: VCF East 4.0, another update... > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <001d01c7555d$aa2aa730$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi all, > > I'm getting an early start on signing up VCF East exhibitors / vendors / > speakers. If you're interested and not already on our local (MARCH) list, > then please contact me off-list. > > - Evan > > ----------------------------- > > Prior update: In addition to Chuck Peddle, our panel (in the morning of June > 9) will feature Bil Herd, Bob Russell, and Dave Haynie .... Along with > several of the early models (and even some ultra-rare prototypes) on display > .... In case the panelists have a sudden urge to demo anything. ALSO: there > WILL be a second day! The official dates are now June 9-10. > > Location: InfoAge Science Center (www.infoage.org), Wall, N.J. .... > Sponsored once again by MARCH (www.midatlanticretro.org). > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:25:08 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <45DBBB94.1040205 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Tony Duell wrote: > > My first thougth is that it is a mains filter capacitor that's breaking > > down. Some of them are designed to be 'self healing' in that if the > > dielectric breaks down, the current will then vapourise the metal in that > > area, causing the capacitor to carry on working. Of course that was > > before the days of those over-sensitive RCDs, etc. > > This is where we find there's a temperature-controlled fan or somesuch in the > machine which kicks in after a few minutes and for some reason causes the PSU > to throw a wobbly... > > Agreed - weird problem. > > Out of interest, if you power the machine up and then immediately power it > down normally (before it's had the chance to do so itself :) does it still > upset the house mains? Just asking as maybe that's something you haven't tried > yet... > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:15:39 -0500 (EST) > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200702210331.WAA14994 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >> Is there anyone here who knows enough about typical HPIB hardware of > >> the hp300 era to be able to take a list of chip markings and tell me > >> which one is probably the relevant driver? > > What I would do is trace back from the data pins of the HPIB > > connector (IIRC that's pins 1-4 and 13-16 of the 24 pin Microribbon > > connector). On most modern-ish machines (anything since the 9830 > > :-)), there is only one chip connected to those lines, and that's the > > HPIN data buffer. > > Then I guess this isn't modern-ish. :-) The suspect hardware is a > 98625A; what tracing I've managed to do seems to lead back to four > 16-pin DIPs labeled with an HP code (1820-2058, to be specific). > > > One common type is the 75160, which comes in a 20 pin DIL package, or > > I guess some kind of SMD thing. > > This hardware is entirely through-hole DIP. Not a suface-mount part in > sight. Fairly low-density through-hole DIP, too - on a board measuring > 17x14 cm, there are only 31 chips: one of 48 pins, three of 20 pins, > fourteen of 16 pins, and and thirteen of 14 pins (well, thirteen 14-pin > DIP packages; I think two are resistor packs rather than logic), plus > two ten-pin SIP resistor packs, a two-switch DIP switch bank, a > five-switch DIP switch bank, a small pot, four discrete resistors, > seventeen discrete capacitors, and a crystal oscillator. Oh, and > card-edge fingers on one side and a back panel with an HPIB connector > on the other. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:17:11 -0800 (PST) > From: "O. Sharp" > Subject: Looking For DEC TTY Connectors > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Hey, all: > > I'm looking for two pair of the sort-of-Molex-like connectors DEC used for > connecting Teletypes to minis in the late '60s/early '70s. A DEC drawing > designates them as "Mate-n-Lock" connectors, T04915; my web search for > them turned up a lot of connectors, but not this type. Here's a photo of > a set, if it helps: > > http://flyingmoose.org/tty_conn.jpg > > Are these still manufactured? Does anyone have two sets in spares, or > otherwise know where I can find a couple? > > Thanks in advance for any help! > > -O.- > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:55:13 -0500 > From: Gavin Thomas Nicol > Subject: Re: NeXT external CDROM drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house > > (and so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether > > it was just an off-the-shelf unit. > > It's essentially a badge-engineered Apple external CD. I have a few > of both... mostly because the Apple parts are 100% the same so I use > them to repair the NeXT drives. I can dig up the appropriate model > numbers if you want. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:07:30 -0500 > From: "William Donzelli" > Subject: Re: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was given a pair of 19" Rack > > mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some Vax equipment. If > > anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, they are yours for > > free, just come and pick them up. > > I need these like a hole in the head - but if available... > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:23:59 -0600 > From: Jim Battle > Subject: Re: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <45DBD76F.4040409 at pacbell.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Continuing my story of trying to recover the contents of the hard drive > in my Horizon 8/16 system, I took Dave Dunfield's advice and wrote a > small program to read each sector from the hard drive and dump it. 30 > MB of disk data at 9600 baud, printed as ASCII hex. It took a while. > > The mystery remains -- what is it? > > There is no plain-text to be found anywhere ... not even accidental > sequences. I thought that perhaps it is a lot of binary data. Some of > it must be code. Searching the hex for "CD0500" (which is "CALL 0005", > the CP/M call vector) has no hits. > > I know the disk is good because I can write a sector and read back what > I wrote. The non-destructive drive tests (basically read each sector > and see if any errors crop up) pass. > > Even stripping the msb produces blocks of data that look like the > following text. "." represents unprintable characters. > > ........."E..(P @.....'N.:tiS'N. > 9rdI.&M.6mZ4hQ"D..#G..:tiS'O. aB... A....,Y3gO.>}ztiS&M.7n]:ti > R$I.%J.)R%K.,Y2eJ.)R$H.#F..4hP @ > .....1bD..$I.&L.0aC...9reJ.(Q#F. > .7n\8p`@.....-[7o_>|ysfM.7n\8qcG > .. o^={vmZ5jT(Q"D..%K./^ (P!C...;vlX0aB...+W.]:thP!C...5k > W/^ W/_>|ysfM.6lX0aC... S&M.4hP!C...7n];vlY3fL.2dI.$I.$I > .%J.+V,X1cF..1bE..*T(P @........ > ..9sgO.={wn];wo^=zthP @.......>} > {vmZ4iS&L.2eJ.*U*T(P A....9rdH.! > B...%J.)S'O.?~}ztiS'O.>|xqbE..(P > > This is a typical block, one of almost 60K. > > You prefer hex? OK, here is another block: > > ; TRACK #031A, SECTOR #000C > 010202060405000102F4E8D0A1428408102143870E1C3972E5CB962D5BB66DDB > B76EDDBA75EAD5AA55AA54A952A54B972F5FBE7CF9F2E4C8902040800103060D > 1B376FDFBF7FFEFCF8F1E2C58A142953A64C983162C488102143860C183162C4 > 88102143870F1E3D7BF6ECD9B265CB972E5CB972E5CB962D5BB76EDCB972E5CB > 972E5DBA74E8D1A2448912254B972E5CB972E4C8902143870E1C3972E5CB962D > 5AB56BD6AC58B061C2850B172E5CB871E2C58B172F5FBE7CF9F2E4C89123468C > 193366CD9A356AD5AB57AF5FBE7DFAF5EAD4A953A64C983163C78E1D3A75EAD4 > A953A74F9E3D7AF4E9D2A54B972E5CB972E5CB972F5FBF7EFDFBF7EEDCB973E6 > CD9A356AD4A851A2458B172E5CB972E5CA942851A2448913274E9D3A74E9D3A7 > 4E9D3B76EDDAB56BD7AE5CB973E6CD9B366CD8B163C78E1D3A74E9D3A74E9C38 > 70E1C3860D1B376EDDBA74E8D0A143870F1F3F7EFDFAF4E9D3A74F9F3E7DFBF6 > ECD8B163C68D1A356AD5AB57AE5CB871E2C58A142953A64C993264C89123478F > 1E3C79F3E7CF9E3D7BF7EFDFBE7DFBF6ECD9B265CA942851A3478F1E3D7BF6ED > DBB66DDAB469D2A4499224489122448913264D9B376FDEBD7AF4E8D0A0408001 > 020408102040800103060C183162C4881122458A152A55AA54A850A142840912 > 2448902143860D1B376EDCB973E6CD9B376FDFBF7EFDFAF5EAD4A850A0418205 > > I suppose it might be 8086 binary, as turbodos supported both Z80 and > 8086 CPUs in the system, even mixed, but then again, my machine only has > Z80s, no 8086s. > > Unless a genius comes along and recognizes this, I'm going to wipe the > drive, install TurboDOS, and not look back. > > Finally, I have to give kudos to Dave Dunfield for his great NST > utilities and his floppy disk archive. It allowed me to mint some new > NSDOS and CP/M images for the machine after my only CP/M boot disk got > trashed. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:47:56 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <45DB6C8C.26193.21EE3100 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Feb 2007 at 2:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There aren't that many HPIB buffer chips in common use. There's the TI > > set (75160/75161/75162), the HP custom one, the various Motorola ones (I > > forget the numbers), the Intel one (8293), and that's about it. Oh, > > there's the kludge way, using open-collector TTL as drivers (or before > > that, discrete transistors), and 7414's as receivers. > > If you're communicating to a single device, it's possible to use a PC > paralell port (particularly a bidirectional one) to do the job. A > very long time ago, I needed to draw a color pie chart. I had a copy > of Supercalc and a friend loaned me an HP 5-pen (IIRC) plotter that > he'd picked up at the going-out-of-business sale of the Control Data > retail stores. I had a PC XT at the time. The problem was that the > plotter was GPIB only. > > I hacked the parallel port on the IBM MDA to do bidirectional I/O > (easy--just a cut and a jumper). I wrote a TSR that hooked the > parallel port BIOS interrupt and translated the codes intended for a > parallel-interface plotter to GPIB strings. I told Supercalc that it > was driving the parallel-port version of the plotter and bingo--I had > my charts. > > You can probably still find the code in one of the SIMTEL archives, > but I can't remember what I called it--something like LPTHPIB, IIRC. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:11:02 -0500 > From: "Bob Bradlee" > Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200702210611.l1L6B9w2044544 at keith.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:47:05 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > > >On 20/2/07 21:48, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > >> THat's an odd fault. It's repeatable, yes? In other words you turn it on, > >> it runs for 5 minutes, then trips the mains. You cna then power it down, > >> power it up again and it'll run for another 5 minutes... > > >Yep. Every time. I haven't timed it exactly, but it will run for minutes > >then give up; last night I had enough time to start playing with DCL and > >leave it for a bit while I dug a manual out. Then everything went black :) > > > > I had a problem like that, where I had a rack that was drawing close to the limit on a 20 amp breaker, > when I added the last system to the stack the problem began, after a few minutes of runtime the breaker > would heat up and pop, I swaped the breaker out with a different one of the same size and it that held just > fine. The circuit I moved the week breaker to, normally only runs 7 or 8 amps and it never failed with the > light load. > > I had a second breaker problem. After an extended power failure, I found that the circuit would not carry > both the normal startup load with the additional of 2 large UPS's at full charge rate on near dead batteries > during startup. Just about the time everything booted and came back up, the breaker would have heated > up and poped. I pulled the external battery packs off, and let them charge the internal batteries first and > then added one external pack at a time, untill I could get a larger circuit run to the rack. > > While you are at it, you might want to take a clamp on amp meter and balance the load between phases. > You may be pulling more power on one phase. If you pull the voltage down on one side or phase with an > unballanced load, the current load will go up and breakers will be more likely to overheat and pop. > > I was in a 3 phase box just yesterday that was running 17a, 23a, and 37a on each of the 3 phases. > The electric company bills based on the max load on any single phase, by moving about 10a of load from > phase 3 to phase 1, we dropped the billable load the electric company sees from 37a to 27a, close to a > third. That should look good on next months electric bill. > > Just a thought, back under my rock .... > The other Bob > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:28:37 -0800 > From: "r.stricklin" > Subject: Re: NeXT external CDROM drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <2877027B-F289-42E9-A222-3E9BD7889ACC at typewritten.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > On Feb 20, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'm interested to know whether the case styling was done in-house > > (and so is in keeping with the rest of the product line) or whether > > it was just an off-the-shelf unit. > > It's physically identical to the caddy-load 2x Sony OEM unit that > made the rounds as (for example) the Apple CD300 and DEC RRD42, > except for the black casing, black plastics, and NeXT logo pasted up > front. > > ok > bear > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:32:48 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Turbodos on a Horizon 8/16 system > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <45DB7710.24809.22174537 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 20 Feb 2007 at 23:23, Jim Battle wrote: > > > 010202060405000102F4E8D0A1428408102143870E1C3972E5CB962D5BB66DDB > > B76EDDBA75EAD5AA55AA54A952A54B972F5FBE7CF9F2E4C8902040800103060D > > 1B376FDFBF7FFEFCF8F1E2C58A142953A64C983162C488102143860C183162C4 > > 88102143870F1E3D7BF6ECD9B265CB972E5CB972E5CB962D5BB76EDCB972E5CB > > 972E5DBA74E8D1A2448912254B972E5CB972E4C8902143870E1C3972E5CB962D > > 5AB56BD6AC58B061C2850B172E5CB871E2C58B172F5FBE7CF9F2E4C89123468C > > 193366CD9A356AD5AB57AF5FBE7DFAF5EAD4A953A64C983163C78E1D3A75EAD4 > > A953A74F9E3D7AF4E9D2A54B972E5CB972E5CB972F5FBF7EFDFBF7EEDCB973E6 > > CD9A356AD4A851A2458B172E5CB972E5CA942851A2448913274E9D3A74E9D3A7 > ... > > My guess is that this might well be a test pattern. One obvious clue > is that there are too many '1' bits for code--either 8086 or > 8080/Z80.Even complementing the data doesn't produce anything more > useful. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:40:54 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Looking For DEC TTY Connectors > To: General at priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net, > "Discussion at priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Message-ID: <45DBE967.6E5C5DF4 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > "O. Sharp" wrote: > > I'm looking for two pair of the sort-of-Molex-like connectors DEC used for > > connecting Teletypes to minis in the late '60s/early '70s. A DEC drawing > > designates them as "Mate-n-Lock" connectors, T04915; my web search for > > them turned up a lot of connectors, but not this type. Here's a photo of > > a set, if it helps: > > > > http://flyingmoose.org/tty_conn.jpg > > > > Are these still manufactured? Does anyone have two sets in spares, or > > otherwise know where I can find a couple? > > I have half of what you are looking for: about 2-dozen cables, each cable > being 4-conductor with a connector on one end. The connectors are those with > the big flat tab, shown on the left in your photo. The pins in use are the > same as in your photo (2,3,5 & 7, depending on which end you count from), so > presumably these were used for the same purpose. > > It's just surplus cable to me, so if it's of any help without the other > connector, let me know. Location is Vancouver, Canada. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:10:27 -0600 > From: Jim Leonard > Subject: Re: database of PC software release dates? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <45DBF063.3000702 at oldskool.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Richard wrote: > > Is there a database somewhere that attempts to catalog the > > introduction date of software for the IBM PC and compatibles? > > www.mobygames.com, but that's only for entertainment software. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 42, Issue 53 > ************************************** > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 21 12:38:12 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:38:12 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DC7096.2080903@srv.net> Message-ID: On 21/2/07 16:17, "Kevin Handy" wrote: > Could it be something other than the Pro? > What other items are on that breaker? > Could you just be running too much stuff, > or could the breaker be marginal? It's done the same on 2 different breakers, one is a 100A one running my whole house (only a fridge, Mac Mini and hi-fi physically on) and the other is an 80A one at work with nothing else on it. > Many breakers don't blow immediately, > but allow a short time of slightly high > current before they blow, which is giving > you the 5 minutes. I'll have to see if I can measure the current draw from within the PSU since I don't have a clamp meter. > But doesn't the pro have a built in breaker? > (Black button right next to the power cord) > I'd expect the breaker built into the Pro > should trip before it would pop your house > breaker if there was a PSU problem. Well, the machine works until the pop, unless the RD52 is pulling too much but in that case I'd expect the PSU breaker to pop first. It'd be nice to plug the PSU into a mains analyser to see if anything shows up there too, like a sudden big draw or short to earth or something. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 21 12:42:55 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:42:55 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 21/2/07 02:40, "Tony Duell" wrote: > I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. Perhaps > run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. I'd love to, but in a rented house and an electronic workshop that's under strict H&S rules I'm not going to be able to find one. Even my weekend home has an RCD. > I can't rememebr if this PSU uses separate filter capacitors (in which > case change them [1]), a mains filter module (I wonder if you can get the > same type still), or what. I'll open her up tonight and see if there's anything in there that looks upset. > [1] RS or Farnell sell them. Class X between live and neutral, class Y > between live or neutral and earth IIRC. I've got some :) >>> The Pros (and the 'Bow, and Decmate II) are all designed to come into >>> modules without tools. But be warned that setting up the machine out of >> >> I know all about the 'bow and Decmate (wrt maintenance, dismantling etc) but > > I thought the PRo came apart in essentially the same way. The PSU is on > top of the shcssis and held down by a toggle clamp, isn't it? 2 toggles. I know that now, but it took some searching (and removing the bottom cover) to discover this. ZIF sockets on the expansion boards too....nice. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 21 12:43:52 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:43:52 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DBBB94.1040205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 21/2/07 03:25, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Out of interest, if you power the machine up and then immediately power it > down normally (before it's had the chance to do so itself :) does it still > upset the house mains? Just asking as maybe that's something you haven't tried > yet... Not tried that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was fine....... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Feb 21 12:45:44 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:45:44 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures Message-ID: Google has a very vast herd of machines with a large number of hard drives. Very fruitful that they analyze failures and publish the results to the web! While the drives they are studying are definitely not classic (all dating from 2001 or later), those of us who host large quantities of classic material may find the results of interest: http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf Side note: at one point I found it unbelievable that Google was using consumer-grade hardware to host their stuff. Since then, I've developed a lot of respect for this approach! Tim. From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 21 04:45:36 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:45:36 +0000 Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives Message-ID: <45DC22CF.66BB8197@rain.org> Has anyone started to rebuild the boot disk/software archives similar to what Don Maslin was doing? I see bits and pieces spread around the web but nothing all inclusive such as what Don had. It would be great to see it all in one place and mirrored in the same way as bitsavers. I did find a list of the disks that Don had online (I think at Gaby). To the best of my knowledge, that was the only online compilation of what was contained in his collection. From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 21 04:46:34 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:46:34 +0000 Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <45DC230A.ADA7E7B9@rain.org> > From: "Chuck Guzis" > I can remember seeing at least one project for a crystal-controlled > timing source using tubes (I think it used push-pull 6F6's in the > output stage) to run an ordinary synchronous-motor wall clock. This > would probably be during the 1940s or 50s. > > Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the > owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft > located on the back? I seem to recall a rumor where the power companies were offering to replace at no charge those clocks that needed to be mamually started (before my time.) The reason had something to do with using power that didn't register on the power meter. Anyone here know if this is fact or fiction? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 21 12:48:31 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:48:31 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702210611.l1L6B9w2044544@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 21/2/07 06:11, "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > would heat up and pop, I swaped the breaker out with a different one of the > same size and it that held just > fine. The circuit I moved the week breaker to, normally only runs 7 or 8 amps > and it never failed with the > light load. Thing is, if it was something like that then the 32A breaker running the upstairs ring main would pop rather than the whole house, that to me shows more of a sudden leak to earth than anything else. It's still odd that the Pro's own PSU breaker doesn't pop before anything else does. > While you are at it, you might want to take a clamp on amp meter and balance > the load between phases. 13A Single phase :) > phase 3 to phase 1, we dropped the billable load the electric company sees > from 37a to 27a, close to a > third. That should look good on next months electric bill. Nice. Extra bonus for you next month then? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 21 13:02:22 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:02:22 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DC973E.7030709@shiresoft.com> There's an even *more* interesting paper on this from a CMU post-doc (math warning...lots of statistics) that seems to blow away many (if not all) assumptions about drive failures/quality/raid/etc. It was presented at the same conference that the Google paper was. I'll see if I can't dig up a URL to it. Tim Shoppa wrote: > Google has a very vast herd of machines with a > large number of hard drives. Very fruitful > that they analyze failures and publish > the results to the web! > > While the drives they are studying are definitely > not classic (all dating from 2001 or later), > those of us who host large quantities of classic > material may find the results of interest: > > http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf > > Side note: at one point I found it unbelievable > that Google was using consumer-grade hardware > to host their stuff. Since then, I've developed a > lot of respect for this approach! > > Tim. > > > -- TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 13:11:16 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:11:16 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <45DC28D4.25124.24CDAC32@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2007 at 18:42, Adrian Graham wrote: > > I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. Perhaps > > run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. You didn't say how much current the system in question normally draws. It might be informative to take a very large incandescent lamp (or even an electric space heater) and connect it in series with the mains supply to the unit, provided the voltage drop across same wasn't excessive. When the unit failed, the breaker shouldn't trip, given that you now have a resistance to absorb the excess current. This might give you time to determine what's going on in the unit. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 21 13:15:03 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:15:03 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702211415.03115.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 13:42, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 21/2/07 02:40, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. > > Perhaps run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. > > I'd love to, but in a rented house and an electronic workshop that's > under strict H&S rules I'm not going to be able to find one. Even my > weekend home has an RCD. Assuming that an "RCD" is what we call a GFI/GFCI over here, I'd suggest either lifting the ground, or (preferably) connecting the ground to the neutral side of the mains (make up a sepcial adapter cord to do this), and see if it still trips the breaker. GFIs and old (or just "big" computers) generally don't mix well. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 21 13:14:58 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:14:58 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DC973E.7030709@shiresoft.com> References: <45DC973E.7030709@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070221130928.05879a48@mail> At 01:02 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote: >There's an even *more* interesting paper on this from a CMU post-doc (math warning...lots of statistics) that seems to blow away many (if not all) assumptions about drive failures/quality/raid/etc. I saw this a few days ago but thought I shouldn't post because it would be off-topic. Here's the CMU paper: http://www.usenix.org/events/fast07/tech/schroeder/schroeder_html/index.html And here's a summary of Google's results: http://storagemojo.com/?p=378 Both examinations dethrone many rules of thumb. MBTF isn't that meaningful, there's little difference in longevity between consumer and "enterprise" class drives, beliefs about infant mortality, heavily used drives don't fail much more often than little-used drives, SMART isn't, etc. - John From kth at srv.net Wed Feb 21 13:19:38 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:19:38 -0700 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DC9B4A.5040808@srv.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 21/2/07 16:17, "Kevin Handy" wrote: > > >> Could it be something other than the Pro? >> What other items are on that breaker? >> Could you just be running too much stuff, >> or could the breaker be marginal? >> > > It's done the same on 2 different breakers, one is a 100A one running my > whole house (only a fridge, Mac Mini and hi-fi physically on) and the other > is an 80A one at work with nothing else on it. > > Do you have any GFCI (RCD) devices (Ground Fault) on the breakers? It may not be a large power draw, just some current leaking into the ground line and tripping the GFCI. Is there some indicator on your GFCI to indicate if it tripped? Not sure why it would take 5 minutes to trip. Sounds like it might be heat related. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 21 13:21:51 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:21:51 -0600 Subject: Fwd: 8" floppy technical data Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070221132059.07b6e228@mail> I will forward your message to the Classic Computer Collector mailing list. Perhaps someone there can help. - John >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:35:08 -0300 (ART) >From: dario de rito >Subject: 8" floppy technical data >To: jfoust at threedee.com > >hi. >I'm working with a disquette drive formatter model >6700 (DRE )disquette 8" simple side, 77 tracks 26 >sector,256kbyte. >I design an interface for recovery the data recorded >in the disquette. >I have the digital information of each sector record >in my PC,but i dont understand the data, because i >dont know the code or standard used in 1970/78 for >record data, i dont know if the data block have a >particular format >The disquette have a program in atol language. >The disquette is compatible with IBM3740. >Do you have information about it?, the standard use in >1970/78, any format? >Thanks >Dario De Rito From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Feb 21 13:20:30 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:20:30 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures Message-ID: Guy wrote: > There's an even *more* interesting paper on > this from a CMU post-doc (math warning...lots > of statistics) that seems to blow away many (if not > all) assumptions about drive failures/quality/raid/etc. I looked through FAST05 and found a few CMU papers but nothing that looked like that. If/when you find the link I'm very interested. My anecdotal experience is based entirely on a hatred of unnecessary technology especially RAID controller failures (there must be a curse: the controller barfs or loses its config more often than drives fail!) Interesting side point: in several case I've been able to find files (tape images that I made a decade or two ago) that I had misplaced (not a drive crash but simply losing them in the shuffle) by Googling for them and finding a copy of my tape image, in a directory name that I had made up twenty years ago, elsewhere on the web! I was astounded! Tim. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 21 13:28:37 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:28:37 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702211415.03115.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702211415.03115.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200702211428.37210.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 14:15, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 21 February 2007 13:42, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 21/2/07 02:40, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. > > > Perhaps run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. > > > > I'd love to, but in a rented house and an electronic workshop > > that's under strict H&S rules I'm not going to be able to find one. > > Even my weekend home has an RCD. > > Assuming that an "RCD" is what we call a GFI/GFCI over here, I'd > suggest either lifting the ground, or (preferably) connecting the > ground to the neutral side of the mains (make up a sepcial adapter > cord to do this), and see if it still trips the breaker. > > GFIs and old (or just "big" computers) generally don't mix well. Err, I should add that you might want to do this to see if it still trips the breaker. I wouldn't recommend running a machine like this unless it's known that is has a large ground-leakage current (and of course, I'd rather run it with ground tied to neutral than with a lifted ground...). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Feb 21 13:30:27 2007 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:30:27 -0500 Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DC230A.ADA7E7B9@rain.org> References: <45DC230A.ADA7E7B9@rain.org> Message-ID: <20070221191725.M55945@kw.igs.net> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:46:34 +0000, Marvin Johnston wrote > I seem to recall a rumor where the power companies were offering to > replace at no charge those clocks that needed to be mamually started > (before my time.) Some power companies did replace clocks -- and other motor-driven appliances -- on converting to 60Hz from, for example, the 25Hz that Niagara originally generated. > The reason had something to do with using power > that didn't register on the power meter. Some people find conspiracy theories attractive. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 21 13:47:21 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:47:21 -0500 Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <20070221191725.M55945@kw.igs.net> References: <45DC230A.ADA7E7B9@rain.org> <20070221191725.M55945@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <200702211447.21818.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 14:30, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:46:34 +0000, Marvin Johnston wrote > > The reason had something to do with using power > > that didn't register on the power meter. > > Some people find conspiracy theories attractive. It's somewhat plausable; reactive power (which is part of a motor's draw) doesn't register on the power meter, but the power company does still pay for it, in terms of power-line losses at least. That's why large motor installations generally have "power factor correction" capacitors installed alongside of them. Still, I doubt that a clock motor would have drawn enough reactive power for the power company to notice, or even care. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 21 14:13:27 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:13:27 -0500 Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives In-Reply-To: <45DC22CF.66BB8197@rain.org> Message-ID: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> > Has anyone started to rebuild the boot disk/software archives similar to what > Don Maslin was doing? I see bits and pieces spread around the web but nothing > all inclusive such as what Don had. It would be great to see it all in one place > and mirrored in the same way as bitsavers. > > I did find a list of the disks that Don had online (I think at Gaby). To the > best of my knowledge, that was the only online compilation of what was contained > in his collection. I have a small but steadily (if slowly) growing collection of boot/system disk images at: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Additions to the archive are welcome and encouraged, however response has been somewhat limited (many thanks to those who have submitted material). I would be happy to place this material into a larger archive, and of course the various disk imaging tools that I have developed along the way are available to such a project as well. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 21 14:31:05 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:31:05 -0600 Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives References: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <00de01c755f7$360d1aa0$6600a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... >> Has anyone started to rebuild the boot disk/software archives similar to >> what >> Don Maslin was doing? I see bits and pieces spread around the web but >> nothing >> all inclusive such as what Don had. It would be great to see it all in >> one place >> and mirrored in the same way as bitsavers. >> >> I did find a list of the disks that Don had online (I think at Gaby). To >> the >> best of my knowledge, that was the only online compilation of what was >> contained >> in his collection. I'd of course be happy to host such a collection on classiccmp.org. Jay From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 21 14:47:23 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:47:23 +0000 Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives In-Reply-To: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45DCAFDB.2070504@philpem.me.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I have a small but steadily (if slowly) growing collection of boot/system disk images > at: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > > Additions to the archive are welcome and encouraged, however response has been > somewhat limited (many thanks to those who have submitted material). I've got a week off university next week, so I'm planning to try and shift a few projects off my 'unfinished' list. Near the top is the USB/RS232 floppy reader I mentioned a while back - basically a Catweasel variant with a USB interface. A couple of TTL gates to clean up the disc signals, a CPLD, a bit of RAM and a microcontroller. How hard can it be? Don't answer that one. Seriously, please, don't answer that question... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 21 14:48:21 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:48:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives In-Reply-To: <00de01c755f7$360d1aa0$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> <00de01c755f7$360d1aa0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Jay West wrote: > It was written.... > >> Has anyone started to rebuild the boot disk/software archives similar > >> to what Don Maslin was doing? I see bits and pieces spread around the > >> web but nothing all inclusive such as what Don had. It would be great > >> to see it all in one place and mirrored in the same way as bitsavers. > >> > >> I did find a list of the disks that Don had online (I think at Gaby). > >> To the best of my knowledge, that was the only online compilation of > >> what was contained in his collection. > > I'd of course be happy to host such a collection on classiccmp.org. You're doing that already at http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Feb 21 14:49:15 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:49:15 +0000 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702211801.l1LI0ugq095874@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702211801.l1LI0ugq095874@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <777CD101-D889-4268-B23F-6B4E40D11DC8@microspot.co.uk> On 21 Feb, 2007, at 18:01, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the > owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft > located on the back? I don't think I'd call it a wall clock, but I have a clock like that in the computer room. It is octagonal and painted pink, so not my favourite, but I used to use it to keep an eye on the time so I could top up the diesel in the 3 Phase generator which used to run the mainframe. I also have a clockwork car clock which gets wound by the movement of the car. That's way off topic though. I wonder which was the first computer with a real time clock, what year and how it was implemented. I imagine it was invented primarily for charging for computer time. I think the first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had one because if your job ran over its limit time (30 seconds IIRC), the job was aborted. Unless that was the operator looking at his wrist watch! Roger Holmes From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 21 14:51:17 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100 available In-Reply-To: <00de01c755f7$360d1aa0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <971510.44279.qm@web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not my cup of tea but someone on this list may be interested. Please contact Gary directly. Bob ______________________________________________________________________ Bob, Our stuff isn't really what I would call "vintage". It's a 1985 rainbow pc100. about the only cool thing is that is is all complete including documentation and mint condition. my wife worked for DEC at the time and purchased it as a "state of the art" system...... if you know of anyone collecting these I can e-mail the original billing statement which lists the whole system. Gary Mathews garym at quickbeam.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 21 14:53:58 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:53:58 -0500 Subject: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... In-Reply-To: References: <45DB67DB.6000503@bitsavers.org> <45DBA378.6000807@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45DCB166.1060604@atarimuseum.com> You want'em come on over and get'em :-) I've also got several CDC Sabre 9720 disk pak units as well. Curt William Donzelli wrote: >> I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was given a pair of 19" Rack >> mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some Vax equipment. If >> anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, they are yours for >> free, just come and pick them up. > > I need these like a hole in the head - but if available... > > -- > Will > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 15:36:30 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:36:30 -0800 Subject: Fwd: 8" floppy technical data In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070221132059.07b6e228@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070221132059.07b6e228@mail> Message-ID: <45DC4ADE.17502.2552A587@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2007 at 13:21, John Foust wrote: > >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:35:08 -0300 (ART) > >From: dario de rito > >Subject: 8" floppy technical data > >To: jfoust at threedee.com > > > >hi. > >I'm working with a disquette drive formatter model > >6700 (DRE )disquette 8" simple side, 77 tracks 26 > >sector,256kbyte... We received the same email. Unfortunately, this doesn't go far towards explaining a whole lot. All I can garner from this is that the writer has an 8" drive that writes MFM 256-byte sectors. The "3740 compatible" is probably a red herring, as most soft-sectored SSDD/SSSD diskettes had a legend to this effect. Beyond that, we don't know what operating system software is being used. If it's proprietary, the job of unraveling it can take a fair amount of effort (just ask me about 6580 Displaywriter or DECMate WPS I diskettes!). We quoted the OP our standard consulting rates. If there's someone out there who wants to do the work for nothing, please feel free to do so. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 21 15:55:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:55:24 -0600 Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives In-Reply-To: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702212013.l1LKD3bd017814@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45DCBFCC.5060908@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I would be happy to place this material into a larger archive, and of course the > various disk imaging tools that I have developed along the way are available to > such a project as well. I still think the ultimate key is some way of easily sharing "who has what" across multiple sites. Everyone has specific niche interests within the hobby (and generally want to retain control over anything that they put online) - but searching across multiple sites is tricky at best. Possibly a distributed approach *could* work, but maybe a centralised database on classiccmp.org would be better (with participating site owners "publishing" what they have available). Finding someone with the time and expertise to do it is another matter :-) cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 21 16:08:59 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:08:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... In-Reply-To: <45DCB166.1060604@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <538577.92228.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > You want'em come on over and get'em :-) > > I've also got several CDC Sabre 9720 disk pak units > as well. > > > Curt > > > > William Donzelli wrote: > >> I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was > given a pair of 19" Rack > >> mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some > Vax equipment. If > >> anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, > they are yours for > >> free, just come and pick them up. > > > > I need these like a hole in the head - but if > available... > > > > -- > > Will > > > You beat me to them, Will - I'd be interested in those CDC drives as well though. I'm in Albany so it's not much of a drive. I have a couple of machines here in desperate need of functional storage. -Ian From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 21 16:48:27 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:48:27 -0500 Subject: Pair of 19" rack mount Emulex HD's available.... In-Reply-To: <538577.92228.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <538577.92228.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45DCCC3B.3070601@atarimuseum.com> Well, there are two of the Emulex drives and 3 (or 4?) of the Sabre's so why not split them up if you want, totally up to you guys, I just want to see them go to some good homes. Just come and get them, I want to close up this extra 20X20 storage unit I have. Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- "Curt @ Atari Museum" > wrote: > > >> You want'em come on over and get'em :-) >> >> I've also got several CDC Sabre 9720 disk pak units >> as well. >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>> I'm cleaning out one of my storage units, I was >>>> >> given a pair of 19" Rack >> >>>> mountable Emulex HD's (SMD) when I purchased some >>>> >> Vax equipment. If >> >>>> anyone in the area (Carmel, NY 10512) wants them, >>>> >> they are yours for >> >>>> free, just come and pick them up. >>>> >>> I need these like a hole in the head - but if >>> >> available... >> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> > > > You beat me to them, Will - I'd be interested in those > CDC drives as well though. I'm in Albany so it's not > much of a drive. I have a couple of machines here in > desperate need of functional storage. > > -Ian > > From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Feb 21 18:07:49 2007 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:07:49 -0800 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Roger Holmes wrote: I wonder which was the first computer with a real time clock, what year and how it was implemented. I imagine it was invented primarily for charging for computer time. I think the first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had one because if your job ran over its limit time (30 seconds IIRC), the job was aborted. Unless that was the operator looking at his wrist watch! Roger Holmes --------------------- The earliest I worked on was the CDC 1604, shipping in 1959. It used a 1ms increment and a 48 bit count. Like you mention, it was used for job control. But most of the early customers were military and used it for data logging from various experiments. That's a nice way of saying they made bombs and exploded them. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:27:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:27:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DC230A.ADA7E7B9@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Feb 21, 7 10:46:34 am Message-ID: > > > > Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the > > owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft > > located on the back? I've enver actually used one, but I've seen them, and read about them. Another method that was common over here was to have a spring-loaded lever that was operarted when you pusehd or pulled the set-hands knob to set the time. Releasing said knob caused the lever to give a 'kick' to the motor's rotor to get it going in the right direction. These little synchonous motors were symmetircal and could run either way, so you might end up with a clock that runs backwards :-). Mroe recent clocks have a mechanism that detects if the motor is turning backwards and if so, stop it and kick it back again, thus getting it going the right way. On a clock fitted with a second hand, you will see it run backwards for a few seconds sometimes when you connect it to the mains until said device operates and getis going the right way. > > I seem to recall a rumor where the power companies were offering to replace at > no charge those clocks that needed to be mamually started (before my time.) The > reason had something to do with using power that didn't register on the power > meter. Anyone here know if this is fact or fiction? Soundsl ike fiction to me. Electricity meters, at least in the UK have (by law) to record true power only. Now, 'reactive power' (an oxymoron IMHO) is disliked buy the power companies because they don't get paid for it, but the extra current does contribute to I^2R losses in the power cables, it does mean heavier cables are needed, and so on. But, I can't see whay yhr power factor of a self-starting clock would be necessarily any different to that of an older clock. In any case, the total current trhugh such a clock motor is tiny anyway, for a normal house with a few such clocks it is not going to cause any problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:19:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:19:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] In-Reply-To: <45DB6C8C.26193.21EE3100@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 20, 7 09:47:56 pm Message-ID: > You can probably still find the code in one of the SIMTEL archives, > but I can't remember what I called it--something like LPTHPIB, IIRC. I beleive I have this program somewhere, so if it's otherwise lost let me know and I'll see what I can dig out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:35:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:35:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 21, 7 06:38:12 pm Message-ID: > It's done the same on 2 different breakers, one is a 100A one running my > whole house (only a fridge, Mac Mini and hi-fi physically on) and the other > is an 80A one at work with nothing else on it. And the mains plug fuse doesn't blow? This does not sound like an overcurrent fault to me. Is the 100A breaker an RCD type of thing? (actually, it sounds like a 100A-rated RCD used as a main switch in the consumer unit to me, those are _not_ 100A breakser and will not trip on over-current, just on earth leakage). [...] > Well, the machine works until the pop, unless the RD52 is pulling too much > but in that case I'd expect the PSU breaker to pop first. It'd be nice to Actually, I'd expect the PSU to go into overcurrent shutdown mode or something. In gneral, the input circuit breaker only trips if there's a failure i nthePSU iteslf. Any problem with the load will shut the supply down with no other effects -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:07:50 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:07:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HPIB [was Re: Kennedy to PC interface...] In-Reply-To: <200702210331.WAA14994@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 20, 7 10:15:39 pm Message-ID: > > >> Is there anyone here who knows enough about typical HPIB hardware of > >> the hp300 era to be able to take a list of chip markings and tell me > >> which one is probably the relevant driver? > > What I would do is trace back from the data pins of the HPIB > > connector (IIRC that's pins 1-4 and 13-16 of the 24 pin Microribbon > > connector). On most modern-ish machines (anything since the 9830 > > :-)), there is only one chip connected to those lines, and that's the > > HPIN data buffer. > > Then I guess this isn't modern-ish. :-) The suspect hardware is a > 98625A; what tracing I've managed to do seems to lead back to four > 16-pin DIPs labeled with an HP code (1820-2058, to be specific). What I meant one that each data line only goes to one chip. The Intel and TI data buffers are 8 bits wide (so you need one chip total for all 8 data lines, and another chip for the handshake/control lines), the Motorola ones have 4 buffer circuits in a package, so a total of 4 chips on the board. Anyway. I've looked up 1820-2058 in the equivalents list, it's an MC3448AL, That is one of the Motorola HPIB buffers. IIRC< the 98625 is the high-speed DIO-bus (HP9000/200 and HP9000/300 expansion bus) HPIB interface. I know I've seen a schematic for it somewhere, probably either on bitsavers or hpmuseum.net. May be worth looking for. > > One common type is the 75160, which comes in a 20 pin DIL package, or > > I guess some kind of SMD thing. > > This hardware is entirely through-hole DIP. Not a suface-mount part in > sight. Fairly low-density through-hole DIP, too - on a board measuring > 17x14 cm, there are only 31 chips: one of 48 pins, three of 20 pins, I think that 48 pin chips is custom-HP (does it have an HP code which is not entirely numerical?) IIRC< it's called 'Medusa', and is an HPIB interface. I thinnk I've seen it in a PLCC or PQFP pacakage too (probably the former), in the 9154 disk unit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:08:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:08:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DBBB94.1040205@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 20, 7 09:25:08 pm Message-ID: > This is where we find there's a temperature-controlled fan or somesuch in the > machine which kicks in after a few minutes and for some reason causes the PSU > to throw a wobbly... I've worked on several DEC Professional machines, and none of them have temperature-controlled fans... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:31:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:31:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DC0827.24721.244E039C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 7 08:51:51 am Message-ID: > > Before that (mt Cessna still has one) there were clocks that used > > A solenoid and contact to wind a mainspring for the usual wound > > clock style balance wheel and escapement. > > Used in automobiles (at least US ones) for donkey's years--and at > least in the case of US cars, one of the dashboard instruments that > failed first. They were used in UK cars in the 1950s and 1960s (I've repaired the one in a friend's Rover P4), but were replaced with transistor-maintained balance wheel clocks in the 1970s. Now, of course, cars have digital clocks, problaby just a program running on a microcontroller in the instrument cluster. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:39:55 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:39:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 21, 7 06:48:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 21/2/07 06:11, "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > > > would heat up and pop, I swaped the breaker out with a different one of the > > same size and it that held just > > fine. The circuit I moved the week breaker to, normally only runs 7 or 8 amps > > and it never failed with the > > light load. > > Thing is, if it was something like that then the 32A breaker running the > upstairs ring main would pop rather than the whole house, that to me shows > more of a sudden leak to earth than anything else. It's still odd that the > Pro's own PSU breaker doesn't pop before anything else does. That 32A MCB and the breaker in the Pro are current-operated devices. I'll bet the main switch is an RCD (and not current operated at all), and what's tripping the latter is an earth leakage problem. Thing is, some older mains filters have a fairly high earth current anyway (one reason I don't want an RCD anywhere near the mains to my workbench). SO there may not be an actual fault. But replaceing the filter (or the capacitors, possibly with lower value ones) might get it running. The 5 minute delay is a puzzler though... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:36:51 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:36:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 21, 7 06:42:55 pm Message-ID: > > I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. Perhaps > > run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. > > I'd love to, but in a rented house and an electronic workshop that's under > strict H&S rules I'm not going to be able to find one. Even my weekend home > has an RCD. What about running it off a _big_ isolating transformer :-) Isn't there anywhere you cna plug it in that's not 'protected' by an RCD? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 18:53:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:53:47 -0800 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45DC791B.23647.260740C3@cclist.sydex.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > I wonder which was the first computer with a real time clock, what > year and how it was implemented. I imagine it was invented primarily > for charging for computer time. I think the first machine I > programmed, the IBM 7094 had one because if your job ran over its > limit time (30 seconds IIRC), the job was aborted. Unless that was the > operator looking at his wrist watch! I'd like to differentiate between a timer and a clock on this one. In other words, if the system required you to enter the time of day at boot time, what you had was a timer. To me a clock is something that keeps time of day regardless of the state of the machine. Thus, the 5150 (IBM PC) didn't have a clock, just a timer, but the 5170 (PC AT) had both. To be certain, there were add-in boards for the PC that included a real-time clock. I think I can remember at least one for the S-100 bus also. At Durango, we discussed including one, but the lead engineer refused to have anything as dirty as batteries near his system. He flat out wouldn't consider it, even if the batteries were kept outside of the case. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:44:07 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:44:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702211415.03115.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 21, 7 02:15:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 21 February 2007 13:42, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 21/2/07 02:40, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. > > > Perhaps run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. > > > > I'd love to, but in a rented house and an electronic workshop that's > > under strict H&S rules I'm not going to be able to find one. Even my > > weekend home has an RCD. > > Assuming that an "RCD" is what we call a GFI/GFCI over here, I'd suggest It is. 'Residual Current Device'. The old name was ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker) > either lifting the ground, or (preferably) connecting the ground to the > neutral side of the mains (make up a sepcial adapter cord to do this), > and see if it still trips the breaker. NO!!! UK mains distribution is significantly different to US practice. We don't have a sparate distribution transoformer for each house (there are no 'pole pigs' over here). Earth and neutral are not, in general, linked at the house's distribution board. What I would do at this point is remove all mains filter capacitors from the PSU -- if there are any from live to earth on the PSU PCB, desolder them. If there';s a mains filter can, remove it and connect mains directly to the PSU PCB (but keep the intenral circuit breaker in circuit). If the machine works propeerly now, you'll know the problem was due to an earth current. Then you can trace where that's coming from. > > GFIs and old (or just "big" computers) generally don't mix well. Agreed. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 21 18:59:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:59:04 -0600 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:39 AM -0600 2/20/07, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Jay, >> >> Any ideas how many messages have been posted to this list since its >> creation back in (mumble, mumble - 1987?) ? > > Around 190,521 Thanks for that (and the yearly break-down). Those are some pretty healthy numbers :-) Does anyone maintain list archives in mbox format online anywhere "permanent"? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 21 19:11:06 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:11:06 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702212011.06963.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 19:35, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's done the same on 2 different breakers, one is a 100A one > > running my whole house (only a fridge, Mac Mini and hi-fi physically > > on) and the other is an 80A one at work with nothing else on it. > > And the mains plug fuse doesn't blow? This does not sound like an > overcurrent fault to me. Is the 100A breaker an RCD type of thing? > (actually, it sounds like a 100A-rated RCD used as a main switch in > the consumer unit to me, those are _not_ 100A breakser and will not > trip on over-current, just on earth leakage). Yeah, I was thinking about that too.. If you're drawing enough current to blow a 100A breaker through a system power cord (18 - 14AWG here in the states), you'd end up with a very melty power cable. I think it's gotta be a ground-fault that's causing Witchy's problems. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 21 19:37:18 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:37:18 -0600 Subject: List stats? References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> Jules wrote... > Thanks for that (and the yearly break-down). Those are some pretty healthy > numbers :-) I was so glad someone tracked that down so I didn't have to :) > Does anyone maintain list archives in mbox format online anywhere > "permanent"? Yes, I do :) Jay From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 19:58:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:58:02 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 21, 7 06:48:31 pm, Message-ID: <45DC882A.29109.26421599@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2007 at 0:39, Tony Duell wrote: > Thing is, some older mains filters have a fairly high earth current > anyway (one reason I don't want an RCD anywhere near the mains to my > workbench). SO there may not be an actual fault. But replaceing the > filter (or the capacitors, possibly with lower value ones) might get it > run Many pi-section line filters have capacitors connected between each side of the mains and ground. If one were the slightest bit leaky, it might warm up a bit and pass sufficient current to trip the (well, we call it a Ground Fault Interrupter) RCD. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 20:15:28 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:15:28 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 21, 7 06:48:31 pm, Message-ID: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> I have a slightly OT question about the UK RCDs. Here in the US, GFIs are commonly installed on branch circuits, often incorporated in the first receptacle of a string. I don't believe I've ever seen a GFI as part of the main breaker. But then, perhaps there's a practical reason for that as our home distribution is 120-0- 120 volt, so perhaps the need to detect an imbalance on either side of the relative to neutral as well as either side relative to the other (for 240v appliances) would make the device overly complex. But here's my question: Given that the RCD is installed as part of the main breaker, surely some allowance must be made for small amounts of leakage from a number of powered devices. So how large must the leakage current to earth/ground be before the breaker trips? And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection circuitry only on the high side of the line? I hope I was somewhat clearer than mud. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 20:34:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:34:34 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 21, 7 06:48:31 pm, <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DD013A.9030207@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 > GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection > circuitry only on the high side of the line? I'm pretty sure it's only on the high side. They do make GFCI's that detect on the neutral side, but if memory serves, they aren't the cheap ones you find in giant bins in the Home Despot. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 21 20:51:38 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:51:38 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DD013A.9030207@gmail.com> References: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> <45DD013A.9030207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702212151.38403.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 21:34, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 > > GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection > > circuitry only on the high side of the line? > > I'm pretty sure it's only on the high side. They do make GFCI's that > detect on the neutral side, but if memory serves, they aren't the > cheap ones you find in giant bins in the Home Despot. Well, it detects the difference between the ground and neutral, so it should detect it (in theory). However, there's usually (hopefully!) not much voltage difference between the ground and neutral, so it's possible that the GFI won't notice. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 20:52:21 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:52:21 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DD013A.9030207@gmail.com> References: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> <45DD013A.9030207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702211852j5d8fc87dmcb1748528c98944d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 > > GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection > > circuitry only on the high side of the line? > > I'm pretty sure it's only on the high side. They do make GFCI's that > detect on the neutral side, but if memory serves, they aren't the cheap > ones you find in giant bins in the Home Despot. > > Peace... Sridhar > If I understand this correctly (and I may not) the GFI detects an inbalance between the current flows on the hot and neutral conductors, and does not directly sense a current flow between hot and ground. http://personal.cha.bellsouth.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/gfi.pdf From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 21 20:55:09 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:55:09 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: At 7:37 PM -0600 2/21/07, Jay West wrote: >Jules wrote... >>Thanks for that (and the yearly break-down). Those are some pretty >>healthy numbers :-) >I was so glad someone tracked that down so I didn't have to :) I was curious, and I figure I have one of the more complete collections of messages. Of course I should take the time to figure out if I am missing a chunk or not, and to better break my archives down by year. >>Does anyone maintain list archives in mbox format online anywhere >>"permanent"? >Yes, I do :) Mine are in whatever format Eudora uses with "Old Style" TOC files. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 21 21:07:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:07:40 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702211852j5d8fc87dmcb1748528c98944d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Glen Slick" > >On 2/21/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 >> > GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection >> > circuitry only on the high side of the line? >> >>I'm pretty sure it's only on the high side. They do make GFCI's that >>detect on the neutral side, but if memory serves, they aren't the cheap >>ones you find in giant bins in the Home Despot. >> >>Peace... Sridhar >> > >If I understand this correctly (and I may not) the GFI detects an >inbalance between the current flows on the hot and neutral conductors, >and does not directly sense a current flow between hot and ground. > >http://personal.cha.bellsouth.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/gfi.pdf HI I think you are correct. The ones I've opened have a transformer with counter wound coils for the neutral and the hot. They then have a sense winding on thatcore. Any differential current trips it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 21:32:26 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:32:26 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/21/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here in the US, GFIs are commonly installed on branch circuits, often > incorporated in the first receptacle of a string. I've seen plenty of those in bathrooms and kitchens, where the upstream-most outlet is GCFI, and all the downstream outlets are ordinary (but protected by the upstream one). > I don't believe I've ever seen a GFI as part of the main breaker. I saw some in a new-build on Monday night. They were described to me as "bedroom GFCI". Dunno why they had to have them, but it seemed to be a new code requirement here in Columbus, OH. These were apparently only to bedrooms, not the living room, lighting, etc., thus the name. Never seen them before, but there they were. The breakers themselves were longer than the others, by 25%-50%, with a small light-colored switch that would normally be covered by the panel cover. I'm guessing the switch is the trip indicator. There did not seem to be a "test" button. > And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 > GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection > circuitry only on the high side of the line? I do not know for a fact, but I _think_ the cheap GCFIs in the States only have detection circuity on the high side. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 21 21:49:23 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:49:23 -0600 Subject: HP 2005A computer system?? Message-ID: <002801c75634$716bd950$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was emailing back & forth with a person who collects HP mini's and they mentioned.... > Eventually, I'd like to put together a dual-processor realtime system > similar to the Continental 2005A RTE configuration, I responded... > I've never even seen any reference > to it. I'm extremely curious as to just what it is. Can you enlighten > me at all about it? He said... Continental Airlines contracted HP to build a real-time system around 1970, and HP put together a dual-CPU system similar to a 2000A, with a 2116 and a 2114. HP advertised the hardware configuration itself (not just the software) as the 2005A Real Time Executive. The Contential configuration is dual-CPU, but the default 2005A configuration in the HP catalog has only a 2116 and about half the peripherals of the Continental configuration. ------------------------- I have never heard of this Continental 2005A dual processor Real Time Executive, especially as an official product. Does anyone have more information? Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 21 21:51:27 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:51:27 -0800 Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DC230A.ADA7E7B9@rain.org> Message-ID: >From: Marvin Johnston > > > > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > I can remember seeing at least one project for a crystal-controlled > > timing source using tubes (I think it used push-pull 6F6's in the > > output stage) to run an ordinary synchronous-motor wall clock. This > > would probably be during the 1940s or 50s. > > > > Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the > > owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft > > located on the back? > >I seem to recall a rumor where the power companies were offering to replace >at >no charge those clocks that needed to be mamually started (before my time.) >The >reason had something to do with using power that didn't register on the >power >meter. Anyone here know if this is fact or fiction? Hi As a kid, I had a motor from such a clock. The rotor was a cage of bars that went by an electro megnet, run by AC. It would just sit and vibrate until one gave it a start. The shade pole motors replaced these because they'd self start. They do use more electricity while running to induce current in the shading coil. So, the clock runs a little hotter. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft? Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 21 22:26:42 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:26:42 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DD1B82.8070606@oldskool.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Side note: at one point I found it unbelievable > that Google was using consumer-grade hardware > to host their stuff. Since then, I've developed a > lot of respect for this approach! Quantity over quality. If you have enough money to get that off the ground, you win in the long run. Related note: All throughout the early to mid 1990s, Pixar standarized solely on SparcStation 20s for their renderfarm. Why not a more powerful system, or a cheaper system? Because they claimed, due to form factor, it was the most number of CPUs they could fit into a room. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 21 22:32:36 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:32:36 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: At 6:55 PM -0800 2/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I was curious, and I figure I have one of the more complete >collections of messages. Of course I should take the time to figure >out if I am missing a chunk or not, and to better break my archives >down by year. Curiosity killed the cat, but.... It looks like I'm not missing messages, and I took the time to sort them. The dip in 2000 looks authentic. Note, this is about 28,000 higher than I reported yesterday. 1997 4204 (July - December) 1998 22884 1999 22826 2000 17581 2001 27482 2002 27915 2003 20658 2004 22678 2005 28163 2006 20201 2007 3722 (to date) Total: 218224 Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 21 23:25:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:25:48 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DD1B82.8070606@oldskool.org> References: , <45DD1B82.8070606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45DCB8DC.26757.27004896@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2007 at 22:26, Jim Leonard wrote: > Related note: All throughout the early to mid 1990s, Pixar standarized > solely on SparcStation 20s for their renderfarm. Why not a more > powerful system, or a cheaper system? Because they claimed, due to form > factor, it was the most number of CPUs they could fit into a room. I seem to recall an article that mentioned that the effects on "Titanic" were rendered using a room/closet full of Peecees (Dell, I think)... Something about the hardware (running Linux, IIRC) cost less than $50K. I may have all or some of this wrong, but I think the article was published in IEEE Computer some years back. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 21 23:55:18 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:55:18 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DCB8DC.26757.27004896@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45DD1B82.8070606@oldskool.org> <45DCB8DC.26757.27004896@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DD3046.9000503@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to recall an article that mentioned that the effects on > "Titanic" were rendered using a room/closet full of Peecees (Dell, I > think)... Something about the hardware (running Linux, IIRC) cost > less than $50K. Not sure about that, but the first Matrix film "bullet time" effects was done on FreeBSD and a PC renderfarm. The third Matrix film used ridiculous amounts of cash with third-party effects houses, some of which were put out of business by the endeavor (not sure how that works). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From martinm at allwest.net Thu Feb 22 00:15:23 2007 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:15:23 -0700 Subject: Google on hard drive failures References: , <45DD1B82.8070606@oldskool.org> <45DCB8DC.26757.27004896@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001001c75648$d641d0a0$0202a8c0@p4266> > I seem to recall an article that mentioned that the effects on > "Titanic" were rendered using a room/closet full of Peecees (Dell, I > think)... Something about the hardware (running Linux, IIRC) cost > less than $50K. > 160 x 433Mhz Alpha's for the rendering farm. See: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2494 Martin From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Feb 22 00:33:20 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:33:20 -0500 Subject: OT: GFCIs (was New DEC museum entry :D) Message-ID: <01C75621.78369120@mse-d03> From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D >And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 >GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection >circuitry only on the high side of the line? As mentioned by several others, GF(C)Is detect an imbalance between hot and neutral and do not in fact care about ground at all. Since the neutral is normally bonded to ground at the main panel, it would require considerable current in the neutral to generate a detectable voltage difference between neutral and ground at the receptacle; in the unlikely event that the neutral is not at ground potential a GFCI would still trip on a fault. In fact, if you have to replace one of the unobtainium 2-prong ungrounded receptacles in an old house wired with knob & tube (or the '50s era 2-wire NM non-metallic sheathed), replacing it with a GFCI receptacle will give protection similar to a grounded outlet (although of course running a ground wire back to the panel is preferable, since an internal short or leakage will not be detected until there is an external path to ground, and noise suppression filters will be ineffective). The "bedroom GFCI"s that Ethan mentioned are actually Arc-fault interrrupters, required by most jurisdictions for the last 4 or 5 years in bedroom circuits because neither a circuit breaker nor a GFCI will trip on an arcing short or connection (the cause of many if not most residential electrical fires) if the current is less than the breaker rating. mike From marvin at west.net Wed Feb 21 04:23:22 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:23:22 +0000 Subject: OT Re: Is this true?? (TI & watches) Message-ID: <45DC1D9A.6615F87A@west.net> > From: "Chuck Guzis" > I can remember seeing at least one project for a crystal-controlled > timing source using tubes (I think it used push-pull 6F6's in the > output stage) to run an ordinary synchronous-motor wall clock. This > would probably be during the 1940s or 50s. > > Does anyone remember that the oldest of said wall clocks required the > owner to start the motor manually by spinning a little knurled shaft > located on the back? I seem to recall a rumor where the power companies were offering to replace at no charge those clocks that needed to be mamually started (before my time.) The reason had something to do with using power that didn't register on the power meter. Anyone here know if this is fact or fiction? From marvin at west.net Wed Feb 21 04:43:03 2007 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:43:03 +0000 Subject: Boot Disk/Software Archives Message-ID: <45DC2237.C4F9BFA2@west.net> Has anyone started to rebuild the boot disk/software archives similar to what Don Maslin was doing? I see bits and pieces spread around the web but nothing all inclusive such as what Don had. It would be great to see it all in one place and mirrored in the same way as bitsavers. I did find a list of the disks that Don had online (I think at Gaby). To the best of my knowledge, that was the only online compilation of what was contained in his collection. From jrr at flippers.com Thu Feb 22 00:58:02 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:58:02 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: The biggest problem I have with the list is the sheer volume of messages. My mail reader is Eudora and I do wish it could treat this list the same way that Agent or Unison treats newsgroup messages - threads sorted by dates. Or is there a way that I am missing buried in Eudora? John :-#)# At 8:32 PM -0800 2/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 6:55 PM -0800 2/21/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I was curious, and I figure I have one of the more complete >>collections of messages. Of course I should take the time to >>figure out if I am missing a chunk or not, and to better break my >>archives down by year. > >Curiosity killed the cat, but.... It looks like I'm not missing >messages, and I took the time to sort them. The dip in 2000 looks >authentic. Note, this is about 28,000 higher than I reported >yesterday. Perhaps Tony was away that year? > >1997 4204 (July - December) >1998 22884 >1999 22826 >2000 17581 >2001 27482 >2002 27915 >2003 20658 >2004 22678 >2005 28163 >2006 20201 >2007 3722 (to date) > >Total: 218224 > >Zane -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 22 02:00:53 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:00:53 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/2/07 00:36, "Tony Duell" wrote: >>> I realyl would want to know exactly how it's tripping the mains. Perhaps >>> run it on a circuit that doesn't have an RCD. >> >> I'd love to, but in a rented house and an electronic workshop that's under >> strict H&S rules I'm not going to be able to find one. Even my weekend home >> has an RCD. > > What about running it off a _big_ isolating transformer :-) > > Isn't there anywhere you cna plug it in that's not 'protected' by an RCD? Nope, not in this day and age. Mind, I've just remembered that one of our rental places still has an 'old' style fusewire consumer unit...hmm...... :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 22 02:06:18 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:06:18 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/2/07 00:39, "Tony Duell" wrote: > That 32A MCB and the breaker in the Pro are current-operated devices. > I'll bet the main switch is an RCD (and not current operated at all), and > what's tripping the latter is an earth leakage problem. Yep, I think that too... > Thing is, some older mains filters have a fairly high earth current > anyway (one reason I don't want an RCD anywhere near the mains to my > workbench). SO there may not be an actual fault. But replaceing the > filter (or the capacitors, possibly with lower value ones) might get it > running. I didn't get a chance to look at it last night as I was perfecting the art of procrastination AND looking over the NeXT motherlode I collected yesterday afternoon. I'll have a go tonight. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 22 02:47:33 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:47:33 -0800 Subject: plotters again Message-ID: <45DD58A8.C4361004@cs.ubc.ca> Inspired by all that talk of plotters last week, I lugged the box containing the HP9872A upstairs and opened it for the first time in 6 years. A few repairs later, an evening in a comfy chair with the manuals (it's nice to have manuals for a change), and some doodling on the 9815 calculator which drives it, and the plotter is zip'in and zoom'in about. Yup, it's pretty neat, esp. with the built-in character generation with scaling. The weak point in this scenario however, is the torture of programming the 9815 and problems with the tape cartridges and drive of the 9815. Those cartridges and drive may have been OK in the day, but today with the gooey wheel issue and failing elastic bands in the cartridges they're nothing one wants to rely on. Given that the plotter uses HP-GL as the control language, I began to think along the same lines as Chuck wrote about a day ago: building a simple parallel interface to the plotter HP-IB port that does just the data transfer (minus all the HP-IB device selection, etc. functions) to connect it up to a more flexible/modern source/controller machine. That's just a thought at the moment so there's no immediate need, but I'm wondering if there are any HP-GL plot files (or collection thereof) out there which would then be available to simply throw down the line at the plotter to draw cute stuff and exercise the plotter. I'm not really thinking of programs or graphics software packages that generate HP-GL, as that would require particular hardware/systems to execute on. Rather: just straight ASCII-text HP-GL files that were previously generated or hand-coded, sort of in the same spirit as 'ASCII-art' was produced. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Feb 22 03:04:49 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:04:49 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:15:28 PST." <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200702220904.JAA16755@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chuck Guzis said: > I have a slightly OT question about the UK RCDs. [Snip] > But here's my question: Given that the RCD is installed as part of > the main breaker, surely some allowance must be made for small > amounts of leakage from a number of powered devices. So how large > must the leakage current to earth/ground be before the breaker trips? > RCDs work by measuring the current in both mains wires, this, of course should the the same in both. If there is any difference (any Residual Current) it must have leaked away somewhere else such as to earth. UK RCDs typically will trip on a current difference of 30mA. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Feb 22 07:35:32 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:35:32 -0500 Subject: Minor ImageDisk update Message-ID: <200702221335.l1MDZ8V8021166@hosting.monisys.ca> I've just posted ImageDisk 1.14 to the web site. This is a minor update adding automatic processing of IMD.CMD if it exists in the ImageDisk home directory at startup (lets you customize IMD to your own preferences), and the ability to easily run command files from the IMD home directory. Please let me know if you encounter any problems. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Feb 22 08:11:36 2007 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:11:36 +0100 Subject: SCADA (was Re: Help to identify a computer?) Message-ID: <20070222141136.169700@gmx.net> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > process-control equipment. I helped get me through college by > > working as an instrumentation technician summers. Really primitive > > I think the main problem is that it's difficult to recreate enough of the > 'process' at home to be able to use this equipment, so it would be a > static collection. Of course some meaursing instruments can be used for > other purposes, but then people do collect measuring instruments. That's true for stuff that is built or irreversibly programmed for a particular application, but there were modular systems as well, which could be used for quite a lot of things. The 'process' can often also be scaled for a demonstration model - University has a nice display of a PLC running a model 'production line' built from Fischertechnik: http://www.rt.eei.uni-erlangen.de/FGdes/index_en.html As I happened across process control stuff, some of it inevitably found its way into my collection, namely: -some Simatic N boards (eurocard form factor, DIN connectors) which fit into a small rack and realize simple logic functions like gates and flip-flops (several per card) up to counters and comperators. The person I got them from originally intended to implement some security functions for his model railway with them, reducing the possibility of accidental crashes, but now controls everything by computer. -Simatic C1 trainer set consisting of a piece of DIN top-hat rail mounted on a wooden base and stuffed with "blocks" (functions like the boards; sized like circuit breakers, connectors on the front) together with a 24V supply and a switches/indicators panel, complete with a bunch of wires for setting up the connections. I had that wired up as a 4-bit binary counter when they wanted a prop with lights blinking in a clever fashion for our A-level party. -Simatic S4, microprocessor based PLC (8086 I think?). It is programmed (either with a hand-held LCD device or with a luggable CP/M machine plus the appropriate software and interface)...by designing a Ladder Diagram or "Kontaktplan", a schematic of how you would implement the function you want with relays. The program is then stored in an EEPROM cartridge. I/O is also 24V DC, 230V AC modules were available. I tested it but don't know what to do with it yet; I thought about building a lights and switches panel and implementing a tic-tac-toe engine as a demonstration program. -Sinumerik mate TG, a controller for CNC lathes. This is unfortunately incomplete, since I only have the electronics cabinet, but not the proprietary display unit which also incorporates the character and (I suppose) vector generator circuitry - It was originally there, but was junked before I realized I wanted the thing. I can only hope I'll ever find one again...used replacements are EUR 3000,- upwards. Not much analog stuff here yet, unfortunately - apart frome some chart recorders by HP and Kipp & Zonen (Netherlands). The one HP is a two-channel recorder with fine hoses for ink distribution to the pens and rubber balls for priming - What do the cartridges look for those like? Can you still get them? (It came without.) The other HP is an analog x/y and x/t plotter with plugin slots for pre-amplifier and filter modules. Don't have anything pneumatic or fluidic yet, althought I consider these technologies very interesting. BTW: If somebody has analog control and/or CNC/PLC stuff floating around and wants it gone or swapped, we might try to work something out; I'm located in Germany and will be present at the VCFe 8.0, 28./29.04. in Munich. Greetings, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de "Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ... Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: www.gmx.net/de/go/mailfooter/topmail-out From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 22 08:22:15 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:22:15 -0600 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DDA717.80406@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two houses (and also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted transformers and wondered what their function is - I'd assumed they were step-down transformers from overhead line voltage (several KV I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some completely different job? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 22 08:30:48 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:30:48 -0600 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45DDA918.2010009@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Jules wrote... >> Thanks for that (and the yearly break-down). Those are some pretty >> healthy numbers :-) > I was so glad someone tracked that down so I didn't have to :) :-) >> Does anyone maintain list archives in mbox format online anywhere >> "permanent"? > Yes, I do :) Is that what the gzipped versions are at: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk They look kind of "mboxey" when extracted, but I can't see where it says what format they actually are (pipermail? Mailman? mbox? Something else?) :-) For the last couple of years I've been trying to save messages that are of interest to me and delete the rest, but doing that is getting messy (mainly because I'm lazy and I've got a 3000-or-so backlog of read messages that I really can't be bothered flicking through! ;-) It'd be nice to know that I don't need to keep *anything* locally as it's always going to be out there for when I do need to download to local disk in order to search. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 22 09:01:54 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:01:54 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <001001c75648$d641d0a0$0202a8c0@p4266> References: , <45DD1B82.8070606@oldskool.org> <45DCB8DC.26757.27004896@cclist.sydex.com> <001001c75648$d641d0a0$0202a8c0@p4266> Message-ID: <45DDB062.1090406@yahoo.co.uk> Martin Marshall wrote: > >> I seem to recall an article that mentioned that the effects on >> "Titanic" were rendered using a room/closet full of Peecees (Dell, I >> think)... Something about the hardware (running Linux, IIRC) cost >> less than $50K. > > 160 x 433Mhz Alpha's for the rendering farm. > > See: > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2494 There used to be another good write-up about this on the web, but unfortunately I don't seem to have the URL any more to even plug into the wayback site. I recall using it as evidence of Linux being used to solve real-world problems back in the 90s, when trying to win some people over to increased Linux usage at the place where I worked then. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Feb 22 10:34:01 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:34:01 -0500 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >Mine are in whatever format Eudora uses with "Old Style" TOC files. TOC files are just "Table of Contents" files - extra personal settings, like labels, etc. The actual mail is stored in the .mbx files - gosh, rather looks like it might mean "mbox" maybe? ;-) ;-) Altho the first line (the "From _person_ _date_ _etc_" line) is a little different (The envelope sender is always "???@???" & whatnot) they're standard mbox and can be transferred to & read by any (well, any that I've used, anyway) *nix mailreader that can handle mbox... Well, just be wary of the ^M floating around; dos2unix or tr/// can help here. I use mutt, myself; it ignores them fairly well. =-=-= And... Rumor has it that John Robertson may have mentioned these words: >The biggest problem I have with the list is the sheer volume of messages. >My mail reader is Eudora and I do wish it could treat this list the same >way that Agent or Unison treats newsgroup messages - threads sorted by >dates. Or is there a way that I am missing buried in Eudora? Overall, so do I, as it seems even Thunderchicken still can't do that - it'll thread, but it won't reshuffle old threads with new messages to the top/bottom of the stack; at least as far as I've seen. Eudora does have a handy little keyboard trick with the [alt] key: If you hold [alt] and click on a name in the From: column, it will go grab all of the mail in that folder from that person (well, with the exact same From: header, anyway) and stack them (highlighted) right where you clicked without reshuffling the rest of the pack. Makes it easy to say "Boy, that 'Merch' guy is a twit. I'll get rid of everything he's ever sent. [alt] click on my name, and hit the delete key. All my blathering is now in the trash. ;-) It works the same for subject, so it'll "almost, kinda, maybe" thread stuff - except when someone changes the subject line, or if the RE: Fw: RE: FWD: RE[2]: stuff gets all wonky Eudora can't track thru it all.... Not perfect, but it's still pretty handy. Eudora is still tops with filtering - tho Thunderchicken is getting closer, finally... ;-) This is with Eudora 5.1, BTW. Speaking of mail - qmail 1.0 just turned 10 years old! It's not "kewl" so it's still offtopic (most everyone's running 1.03 anyway -- gosh - 3 minor updates in a decade! Why can't Microsoft do that??? ;-) but just one of those little interesting (to me) datapoints... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 22 10:52:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:52:24 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: At 11:34 AM -0500 2/22/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: > >>Mine are in whatever format Eudora uses with "Old Style" TOC files. > >TOC files are just "Table of Contents" files - extra personal >settings, like labels, etc. The actual mail is stored in the .mbx >files - gosh, rather looks like it might mean "mbox" maybe? > >;-) ;-) You must be on a PC, on the Mac I only have a file extension on the .toc files. I've never taken a close look at the file archives, the most I've done is run strings on a couple of the mailboxes, and pipe it to less since moving to Mac OS X. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 22 11:37:35 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:37:35 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DDA717.80406@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45DDA717.80406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DD645F.15826.299E3EE1@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2007 at 8:22, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two houses (and > also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted transformers and wondered > what their function is - I'd assumed they were step-down transformers from > overhead line voltage (several KV I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some > completely different job? Even in the US, the practice varies. There are multidrop "pole pigs" in the cities and suburbs. When one gets out into rural areas, there is no uniform application. For example, at the point where my driveway meets the main road, there is a large disconnect (circuit breaker?) box that hooks up with the buried high-voltage distribution. The HV then continues buried alongside my driveway into my front yard, where there's a concrete pad-mounted transformer. The 240 VAC then continues underground to the meter and my house. I've seen inside the disconnect box and it's a 3-wire feed, so I assume that this allows the utility to perform load-balancing on the phases should it become necessary. On the other hand, the fellow across the road is powered from a conventional "pole pig" and aerial drop. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 22 12:17:41 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:17:41 -0700 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DD645F.15826.299E3EE1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45DDA717.80406@yahoo.co.uk> <45DD645F.15826.299E3EE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DDDE45.9040808@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Even in the US, the practice varies. There are multidrop "pole pigs" > in the cities and suburbs. When one gets out into rural areas, there > is no uniform application. For example, at the point where my > driveway meets the main road, there is a large disconnect (circuit > breaker?) box that hooks up with the buried high-voltage > distribution. The HV then continues buried alongside my driveway > into my front yard, where there's a concrete pad-mounted transformer. > The 240 VAC then continues underground to the meter and my house. > On the other hand, the fellow across the road is powered from a > conventional "pole pig" and aerial drop. I guess you got lucky ... you have *The Power* for any *BIG IRON* that you collect. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 22 12:36:00 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:36:00 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DDDE45.9040808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <45DD645F.15826.299E3EE1@cclist.sydex.com>, <45DDDE45.9040808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45DD7210.18560.29D3BAA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2007 at 11:17, woodelf wrote: > I guess you got lucky ... you have *The Power* for any *BIG IRON* that > you collect. Not quite :) "The Power" would be 480v 3 phase. I once asked about it, and while the utlity will do it (as opposed to the city where the utility flat out refuses to run 480/3 to residences), it wouldn't be cheap--and I'd have some serious 'splainin' to do to my lovely wife. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Feb 22 13:26:55 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:26:55 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702221803.l1MI11U9028876@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702221803.l1MI11U9028876@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <31F3C09C-0942-4182-986D-C2A89F498018@microspot.co.uk> On 22 Feb, 2007, at 18:03, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:22:15 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <45DDA717.80406 at yahoo.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Tony Duell wrote: >> (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) > > Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two > houses (and > also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted transformers and > wondered > what their function is - I'd assumed they were step-down > transformers from > overhead line voltage (several KV I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they > do some > completely different job? > I live on a farm, we have a three phase step down transformer on a pole in our field. It steps down from 11,000 volts to 240/440 volts. I guess the 11,000v is across phases as there is no neutral conductor. We used to have a two wire supply to the pole with a 240-0-240 transformer. Then the incoming cloth covered wiring from the pole caught fire. Couldn't do much - it was before it reached any of our fuse boxes or even the meters, even pulling out the 'company' fuses would not have isolated it. We put it out but ran out of powder extinguishers. The fire brigade took over half an hour to arrive (it was in January and it was snowing). They went into the house with breathing apparatus and just saved the house. Everything was covered in congealed PVC, some decorative candles had completely melted and they said another couple of minutes and we would have lost the house. They sat on the stairs for four hours, putting out each new fire in the distribution board until the electricity company turned up and pulled the 1000 Amp fuses on the pole above the barbed wire. The fire brigade were about to leave when my mother pointed out some smoke coming from the wall. The upper storey is timber framed and the woodwork behind the distribution board was alight. They ripped off the Kent peg tiles and we finished the day with a big hole in both inner and outside surfaces of the wall. Next day the electricity company turned up to read the meters, I said hold your hand out, and I dropped a few loose brass wheels which had had numbers painted on them into his hand and pointed out that was all that was left of the meters. The best guess we could get from anyone was that it was a mis-matched load over the two 'phases' (actually 180 degrees apart), and that the neutral wire could not cope. Later on we got the company apparatus moved into a redundant chimney where it could catch light without doing much damage and I paid 400 pounds to have an extra wire put on the overhead supply to the pole and the transformer upgraded to a three phase unit, so I could power my lathe, mill, shaper, surface grinder, pillar drill and my mainframe computer from the mains instead of using a generator. Roger Holmes. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Feb 22 03:39:16 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:39:16 -0000 Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100 available Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393DF0@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi I would have gladly taken it 'tware it not for the fact I'm in the UK. I worked for DEC when Rainbows were current. I had one mounted in the leg of a special desk made to take them. It would have complemented my '91 Vax 4000 nicely. Its a pity air freight has not gone the way of passenger air fares. Oh well! one may turn up in the UK. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom Sent: 21 February 2007 20:51 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC Rainbow PC100 available Not my cup of tea but someone on this list may be interested. Please contact Gary directly. Bob ______________________________________________________________________ Bob, Our stuff isn't really what I would call "vintage". It's a 1985 rainbow pc100. about the only cool thing is that is is all complete including documentation and mint condition. my wife worked for DEC at the time and purchased it as a "state of the art" system...... if you know of anyone collecting these I can e-mail the original billing statement which lists the whole system. Gary Mathews garym at quickbeam.com From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Feb 22 02:51:23 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:51:23 +0000 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DC791B.23647.260740C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45DC791B.23647.260740C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DD598B.1070903@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd like to differentiate between a timer and a clock on this one. > In other words, if the system required you to enter the time of day > at boot time, what you had was a timer. To me a clock is something > that keeps time of day regardless of the state of the machine. So certain Sun hardware starts off with a clock, that gradually turns into a timer? ;-) Gordon From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Feb 22 12:40:57 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:40:57 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:22:15 CST." <45DDA717.80406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702221840.SAA18637@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Tony Duell wrote: > > (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) > > Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two houses (and > also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted transformers and wondered > what their function is - I'd assumed they were step-down transformers from > overhead line voltage (several KV I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some > completely different job? > Thay do the same job...I used to live at the end of one of these lines in Kent. In winter the snow would often bring the lines down, and in summer the cows would use the poles as scratching posts and push them over - never saw an electrocuted cow though... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 14:40:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:40:43 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DD7210.18560.29D3BAA3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45DD645F.15826.299E3EE1@cclist.sydex.com>, <45DDDE45.9040808@jetnet.ab.ca> <45DD7210.18560.29D3BAA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DDFFCB.4010806@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2007 at 11:17, woodelf wrote: > >> I guess you got lucky ... you have *The Power* for any *BIG IRON* that >> you collect. > > Not quite :) "The Power" would be 480v 3 phase. I once asked about > it, and while the utlity will do it (as opposed to the city where the > utility flat out refuses to run 480/3 to residences), it wouldn't be > cheap--and I'd have some serious 'splainin' to do to my lovely wife. I'd be content with 208/3. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 22 14:51:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:51:24 -0800 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DD598B.1070903@gjcp.net> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45DC791B.23647.260740C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <45DD598B.1070903@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45DD91CC.1951.2A4FADF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2007 at 8:51, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > So certain Sun hardware starts off with a clock, that gradually turns > into a timer? That's fine. I call the mechanism a clock if it keeps time regardless of the state of the CPU (powered on or off, running or halted). If it requires the processor to compute the day and date from some externally-supplied value, it's a timer. I seem to remember at least one of the old systems from the 1950's had a plain old analogue clock mounted on the operator's console. That machine had a clock, but which one it was escapes me. Nice touch, though. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 22 15:18:46 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:18:46 -0700 Subject: ebay heads up: Wang VS 5450 in Highlands Ranch, CO Message-ID: Don't see many Wang minis going around. No pictures, but the description lists it as containing a reasonable set of cards. I would contact the seller directly before bidding. Item # 160088328422 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 13:39:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:39:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702212011.06963.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 21, 7 08:11:06 pm Message-ID: > Yeah, I was thinking about that too.. If you're drawing enough current to > blow a 100A breaker through a system power cord (18 - 14AWG here in the > states), you'd end up with a very melty power cable. In the UK, the standard mains plug contains a cartridge fuse in series with the live wire (it's a 3 pin plug, polarised, so live and neutral can't be swapped by plugginhg it in upside-down or anything). The standard ratings for these fuses are 3A, 5A and 12A (others do exist). I would expect most micros would be happy with a 3A plug fuse (that's over 700VA , after all). Now, if you have several protective devices (fuses, circuit breakers) in series, it's not always the case that the lowest-rated one blows in the event of a fault, but in general the characteristics of the MCBs used in house wiring are such that the plug fuse _will_ blow first in the event of a fault in the device. The MCB is there to protect against faults in the fixed wiring. In this case, I would be suprised if that '100A breaker' was not a 100A-rated RCD, and that it doesn't trip on overcurrent anyway. I've never seen a domestic wiring installation where the main switch was anything other than either a plain on/off switch or an RCd. > > I think it's gotta be a ground-fault that's causing Witchy's problems. I am almost sure it is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 13:50:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DC8C40.22744.26520C37@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 7 06:15:28 pm Message-ID: > > I have a slightly OT question about the UK RCDs. > > Here in the US, GFIs are commonly installed on branch circuits, often > incorporated in the first receptacle of a string. I don't believe Over here the RCD (or GFI, ELCB, whatecer you want to call it) comes in at least 4 forms : 1) A mains plug (fits the normal 13A socket outlet) with a built-in RCD. It protects againt problem with the device it's wired onto. They're typically used for things like lawnmowers [1] where you might cut the cable by accident [1] The thing you use in the garden, not the low-noise radar signal amplifier... 2) A socket outlet with a built-in RCD. This protects against faults in the device plugged into that socekt (but not faults in devices plugged into other sockets on the same circuit). Typically used for sockets for outdoowr devices, anywhere where an earth fault is likely 3) An adaptor with a mains plug on one side and a socket on the other. You plug it into a socket outlet and plug a device into it. It protects againset faults in that device. 4) A replacemetn for the main swith to be fitted in the 'consumer unit' (fusebox). It protects afainst problems in the whole house. Somwtimes there's a master mains swtich that turns off all pwoer (and which is just a switch) amd an RCD that comes after it and feeds the socket outlets. Lighting ciecuits are then not protected by the RCD, but then dagerous earth faults on lighting circuits are not common, and if the RCD does trip the house is not plunged into darkness. > > But here's my question: Given that the RCD is installed as part of > the main breaker, surely some allowance must be made for small > amounts of leakage from a number of powered devices. So how large > must the leakage current to earth/ground be before the breaker trips? Normally 30mA of imbalance between live and neutral. > > And a question for the US experts. On a 120v circuit, will a $6.00 > GFI detect a leak between neutral and ground? Or is the detection > circuitry only on the high side of the line? All the RCds I've seen in the UK work by measuring the imbalance in current between live and netural, using a differential current transformer. They will often trip on a neutral-earth fault. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 15:11:59 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:11:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45DD58A8.C4361004@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 22, 7 00:47:33 am Message-ID: > > Inspired by all that talk of plotters last week, I lugged the box containing > the HP9872A upstairs and opened it for the first time in 6 years. A few > repairs later, an evening in a comfy chair with the manuals (it's nice to Not the Comfy Chair! > have manuals for a change), and some doodling on the 9815 calculator which > drives it, and the plotter is zip'in and zoom'in about. Yup, it's pretty neat, > esp. with the built-in character generation with scaling. > > The weak point in this scenario however, is the torture of programming the > 9815 and problems with the tape cartridges and drive of the 9815. Those What's wrong with programming the 9815? I thogut it was a fairly standard 4-level stack RPN machine. > cartridges and drive may have been OK in the day, but today with the gooey > wheel issue and failing elastic bands in the cartridges they're nothing one > wants to rely on. That I'll grant you... > > Given that the plotter uses HP-GL as the control language, I began to think > along the same lines as Chuck wrote about a day ago: building a simple > parallel interface to the plotter HP-IB port that does just the data transfer > (minus all the HP-IB device selection, etc. functions) to connect it up to a Well, the 'device selection' just means you need to be able to assert the ATN line so you can send a command (it's sent over the 8 data lines with the normal handshake sequence). > more flexible/modern source/controller machine. A couple of thoughts. 1) I don't know what the 'dedicated' 9815 interface on the 9872 plotter is, but there are manuals for the ploter and interface over on http://www.hpmusuem.net, which contain scheamtics. I think a little work with a 'scope or logic analyser would decipher said interface (I will bet the actual data sent is ascii-encoded HPGL, just as it is on the HPIB interface) 2) The HPIB (which I beluieve you have), GPIO (8 bit parallel) and RS232 interfaqces for the 9815 all allw you to load or save a program over said interace. You could keep the 9815 and use its HPIB interface to communcate with some more modern machine that stored its programs, thus avoiding the use of the tape drive and cartridges. Incidentally, according to the manuals, the serial interface and GPIO interface have the same firmware ROM. The latter has a box of electronics that's basically aserial <->parallel converter (it contains the standard 40 pin UART, etc). The only difference on the ROM PCB is that links are rearranged to provide a 5V output on a normally-unused pin (it can be used for all sorts of other things too) to power said converter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 15:15:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:15:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <45DDA717.80406@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 22, 7 08:22:15 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) > > Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two houses (and > also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted transformers and wondered > what their function is - I'd assumed they were step-down transformers from > overhead line voltage (several KV I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some > completely different job? I think you're absoluately right. But they normally supply more than just one house, don't they? OK, I was a little too definite in my original statement. I should have said 'Pole pigs are rarely used in the UK, in towns/cities (at least), many houses are supplied from the same transformer'. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 22 15:26:42 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:26:42 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A211E28-3830-4B3C-B45D-411A96F277C8@neurotica.com> On Feb 22, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > typically used for things like lawnmowers [1] where you might cut the > cable by accident > > [1] The thing you use in the garden, not the low-noise radar signal > amplifier... soda -> monitor -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 22 15:42:48 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:42:48 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <3A211E28-3830-4B3C-B45D-411A96F277C8@neurotica.com> References: <3A211E28-3830-4B3C-B45D-411A96F277C8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200702221642.48391.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 22 February 2007 16:26, Dave McGuire wrote: On Feb 22, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > typically used for things like lawnmowers [1] where you might cut > the cable by accident > > [1] The thing you use in the garden, not the low-noise radar signal > amplifier... In the US, we tend not to mow our gardens, but only our lawns. ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 22 15:46:23 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:46:23 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702221646.23576.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 22 February 2007 16:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) > > > > Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two > > houses (and also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted > > transformers and wondered what their function is - I'd assumed they > > were step-down transformers from overhead line voltage (several KV > > I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some completely different job? > > I think you're absoluately right. But they normally supply more than > just one house, don't they? > > OK, I was a little too definite in my original statement. I should > have said 'Pole pigs are rarely used in the UK, in towns/cities (at > least), many houses are supplied from the same transformer'. Around everywhere I've lived (in the US), "pole pig" transformers usually supply more than one house as well, especially in urban areas. About the only places they don't are for heavy industrial/commercial buildings, or in rural areas where there's 1/4mi or more between you and your closest neighbor... And, I guess, multi-unit apartment buildings tend to have their own transformer as well. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 22 15:56:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:56:32 -0600 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DE1190.8020602@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) >> ... > > OK, I was a little too definite in my original statement. I should have > said 'Pole pigs are rarely used in the UK, in towns/cities (at least), > many houses are supplied from the same transformer'. Just checking :) You'd just got me wondering if the things that I'd seen in the UK weren't some sort of line conditioner or at least something other than a step-down transformer. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 22 16:25:05 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:25:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: AFCIs (was Re: OT: GFCIs (was New DEC museum entry :D)) In-Reply-To: <01C75621.78369120@mse-d03> References: <01C75621.78369120@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200702222227.RAA22588@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The "bedroom GFCI"s that Ethan mentioned are actually Arc-fault > interrrupters, [...] How, exactly, does an arc-fault interrupter work? What characteristics of arcs do they detect, and how? I poked around a little, but didn't find anything that described how they worked. (Only what - no how.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Feb 22 16:46:14 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:46:14 -0500 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45DE1D36.1040706@comcast.net> well, the first real-time computer is the Whirlwind(MIT). A real-time machine makes use of a real-time clock to provide deterministic calculations. This was the precursor to the SAGE machine--also a real-time system. I used to work for SEL which was heavily involved in real-time systems, and which made one of the first 32bit real-time machines in the 70's. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Billy Pettit wrote: > Roger Holmes wrote: > > I wonder which was the first computer with a real time clock, what > year and how > it was implemented. I imagine it was invented primarily for charging > for computer > time. I think the first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had one > because if > your job ran over its limit time (30 seconds IIRC), the job was > aborted. Unless that > was the operator looking at his wrist watch! > > Roger Holmes > > --------------------- > > The earliest I worked on was the CDC 1604, shipping in 1959. It used a 1ms > increment and a 48 bit count. Like you mention, it was used for job > control. But most of the early customers were military and used it for data > logging from various experiments. That's a nice way of saying they made > bombs and exploded them. > > Billy > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 22 16:49:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:49:02 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702221642.48391.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <3A211E28-3830-4B3C-B45D-411A96F277C8@neurotica.com>, <200702221642.48391.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45DDAD5E.15854.2ABB5EA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2007 at 16:42, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In the US, we tend not to mow our gardens, but only our lawns. ;) And when we do, we employ our customary overkill. For example, a 6.5 hp gasoline-powered mulching self-propelled model for a postage- stamp-sized front yard. Anything larger requires a riding mower, preferably made by John Deere. Unpowered reel-type mowers are considered to be "quaint". For cleanup, nothing will do but a 2-cycle gasoline-powered blower that puts out over 100 dB employed to best effect before 7 AM. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 22 17:02:54 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:02:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <3A211E28-3830-4B3C-B45D-411A96F277C8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070222230254.6F34257E98@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Dave McGuire > > On Feb 22, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > typically used for things like lawnmowers [1] where you might cut the > > cable by accident > > > > [1] The thing you use in the garden, not the low-noise radar signal > > amplifier... > > soda -> monitor > Are there any other members for type soda? 8-) Cheers, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 22 17:09:06 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:09:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <200702221642.48391.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20070222230906.470C0162A7@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Patrick Finnegan > > On Thursday 22 February 2007 16:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 22, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > typically used for things like lawnmowers [1] where you might cut > > the cable by accident > > > > [1] The thing you use in the garden, not the low-noise radar signal > > amplifier... > > In the US, we tend not to mow our gardens, but only our lawns. ;) > Unless you are playing Hover Bovver... Cheers, Bryan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 22 17:23:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <20070222230254.6F34257E98@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20070222230254.6F34257E98@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20070222152223.L8078@shell.lmi.net> > > > [1] The thing you use in the garden, not the low-noise radar signal > > > amplifier... > > > > soda -> monitor On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Bryan Pope wrote: > Are there any other members for type soda? 8-) keyboard external drive From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Feb 22 17:25:55 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:25:55 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/2/07 19:39, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> I think it's gotta be a ground-fault that's causing Witchy's problems. > > I am almost sure it is. Well, tonight I stripped the PSU down and there aren't any filtering caps, at least not the X type ones I'm familiar with. Instead the mains cable plugs into a honking big sealed tin box that terminates in a 2 inch earth wire and 2 spade connectors that the live and neutral hook up to. Said earth wire is bolted to the chassis and joined to a similar bolt holding the fan to the case. Anyone seen something like this 'mains plug in a sealed tin box' arrangement before? The thing's got to be 4 or 5 inches by 2.5 inches so whatever goes on in there is anyone's guess. If I was at work I may be tempted to unhook the earth wire that's bolted to the chassis but it's there for a reason....though normally I'd expect that to be there to ensure the psu casing was never live. In other news the NeXT cube I picked up yesterday in a non-working state has a bad hard drive that's drawing too much off the PSU. Bah. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 22 18:06:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:06:17 -0600 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DE2FF9.7080200@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > Well, tonight I stripped the PSU down and there aren't any filtering caps, > at least not the X type ones I'm familiar with. Instead the mains cable > plugs into a honking big sealed tin box that terminates in a 2 inch earth > wire and 2 spade connectors that the live and neutral hook up to. Said earth > wire is bolted to the chassis and joined to a similar bolt holding the fan > to the case. > > Anyone seen something like this 'mains plug in a sealed tin box' arrangement > before? The thing's got to be 4 or 5 inches by 2.5 inches so whatever goes > on in there is anyone's guess. Yeah, it'll contain class X or Y filter caps :-) Often the schematic for what's inside the filter is printed on its case, but this one may well have never had one, or it's fallen off. It'll just be the same sort of arrangement as normally seen within a PSU, only in a screened casing. cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 22 18:13:11 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:13:11 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: Message-ID: <45DE3192.9947795B@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The weak point in this scenario however, is the torture of programming the > > 9815 and problems with the tape cartridges and drive of the 9815. Those > > What's wrong with programming the 9815? I thogut it was a fairly standard > 4-level stack RPN machine. Let's see: - awkward editing - the display does not show you the instruction, you have to list on the printer to see what you've done - key-sequence instructions rather than expressive language statements - very limited data-handling - limited to no structure to the language - etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. Or how about this: pretty much every lesson learned and development made in languages and programming of the last 4 to 5 decades is missing. I have never been fond of 'key-sequence' programmable calculators, the 'language' is not very expressive or comprehensible. In short: tortured programming. BASIC is tortured too, but it's miles ahead of the above. I love my HP-21, a straight-forward non-programmable 4-level-stack RPN pocket calculator which I've had since 1976. But even back then I had no great desire to have an HP-25 (essentially the same machine but programmable). > > Given that the plotter uses HP-GL as the control language, I began to think > > along the same lines as Chuck wrote about a day ago: building a simple > > parallel interface to the plotter HP-IB port that does just the data transfer > > (minus all the HP-IB device selection, etc. functions) to connect it up to a > > Well, the 'device selection' just means you need to be able to assert the > ATN line so you can send a command (it's sent over the 8 data lines with > the normal handshake sequence). Additional complexity that's not needed in this scenario. > 1) I don't know what the 'dedicated' 9815 interface on the 9872 plotter > is, but there are manuals for the ploter and interface over on > http://www.hpmusuem.net, which contain scheamtics. I think a little work > with a 'scope or logic analyser would decipher said interface (I will bet > the actual data sent is ascii-encoded HPGL, just as it is on the HPIB > interface) The 9815 interface is essentially just what Chuck did (IIUC) and I have suggested: the 8 HPIB data lines and 3 data-handshake lines are brought across to the controlling machine. It's HPIB minus everything but the data-transfer. (I do have the manual with schematic. The calculator and plotter showed up at a university surplus a few years ago and it was one of those rare instances where it was the just about the complete package: cables, manuals, tapes, warranty card, and enough residual evidence to show it's lineage: used by a researcher in the Dept. of Pathology. The pens for the plotter were missing.) > 2) The HPIB (which I beluieve you have), GPIO (8 bit parallel) and RS232 > interfaqces for the 9815 all allw you to load or save a program over said > interace. You could keep the 9815 and use its HPIB interface to > communcate with some more modern machine that stored its programs, thus > avoiding the use of the tape drive and cartridges. I noticed this in the HPIB interface manual and was thinking about doing that, or building a flash-memory storage device. It could have a little control panel to select a 'file' in the flash-memory. (Probably not going to happen, as if I don't have enough projects to work on). However, using HPIB between another machine and the 9815 is pretty much the same problem as using HPIB between another machine and the plotter. It would be nice as storage for the 9815 but as far as exercising the plotter goes, the 9815 just becomes an annoying and limiting waypoint between the newer machine and the plotter. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 22 18:44:38 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:44:38 -0800 Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45DE3192.9947795B@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <45DE3192.9947795B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45DDC876.20424.2B253361@cclist.sydex.com> Something to keep in mind is that some of the HPIB plotters support a smaller subset of HP GL than do the parallel or serial-interface versions of the same plotter. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 22 19:23:18 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:23:18 -0500 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200702222023.18597.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 22 February 2007 18:25, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 22/2/07 19:39, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> I think it's gotta be a ground-fault that's causing Witchy's > >> problems. > > > > I am almost sure it is. > > Well, tonight I stripped the PSU down and there aren't any filtering > caps, at least not the X type ones I'm familiar with. Instead the > mains cable plugs into a honking big sealed tin box that terminates in > a 2 inch earth wire and 2 spade connectors that the live and neutral > hook up to. Said earth wire is bolted to the chassis and joined to a > similar bolt holding the fan to the case. > > Anyone seen something like this 'mains plug in a sealed tin box' > arrangement before? Yeah, it's a sealed (and probably potted) power-line EMI filter. It should have some filter caps and coils in it. Assuming the extra power-line noise you get by removing the EMI filter isn't a problem, that's probably something that you can try bypassing, to see if it's the source of your problem. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Feb 22 19:25:23 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:25:23 -0600 Subject: Off-topic but still funny. Message-ID: <008c01c756e9$7d5ca220$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> We were talking in the ccmp IRC channel and I thought I'd share this hi-larious photo: http://tinyurl.com/2884e4 Enjoy. From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 22 19:33:45 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:33:45 -0500 Subject: Off-topic but still funny. In-Reply-To: <008c01c756e9$7d5ca220$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <000d01c756ea$a8f4f3f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> OT + minority = stupid to post. -----Original Message----- From: Julian Wolfe [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:25 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Off-topic but still funny. We were talking in the ccmp IRC channel and I thought I'd share this hi-larious photo: http://tinyurl.com/2884e4 Enjoy. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Feb 22 19:45:06 2007 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:45:06 -0600 Subject: Off-topic but still funny. In-Reply-To: <000d01c756ea$a8f4f3f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <008c01c756e9$7d5ca220$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <000d01c756ea$a8f4f3f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <009401c756ec$3e8df5f0$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> _.~._ ,~'.~@~.`~. / : _..._ : \ { :,"''\\`".: } `C) 9 _ 9 (--.._,-"""-.__ ( )(@)( ) `. `-.___.-' LOL \ ,' \ / ,` EVANK ;`-._,-. ,' ,'/ ,' `---t.,-. \_ ,--.,',' ,'----.__\ _( \----' '///,`,--.,' `-.__.--' `. ) '///,' `-` > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:34 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Off-topic but still funny. > > OT + minority = stupid to post. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Julian Wolfe [mailto:fireflyst at earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:25 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Off-topic but still funny. > > We were talking in the ccmp IRC channel and I thought I'd > share this hi-larious photo: > > http://tinyurl.com/2884e4 > > Enjoy. > > From wizard at voyager.net Thu Feb 22 03:45:06 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 04:45:06 -0500 Subject: database of PC software release dates? In-Reply-To: <1171907247.1685.45.camel@linux.site> References: <1171907247.1685.45.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1172137506.22013.179.camel@linux.site> To All, Richard especially.... On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 12:47 -0500, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Richard: > > Maybe if I could find someplace to host an asp.net application for > > free, but so far no luck. > > > Okay, since *I* am opening *my* mouth, give me a few days, and I > believe I can arrange that. I have set up the domain. It is "databasics.us". I was thinking of "archives" as a subdomain name. I have access to the software in the following table, most of which COULD be used to set up the database on software release dates. Personally, I'd recommend MySQL 5. Have you thought about record formats? Let me know. Service Version Path PHP4 (more info) 4.4.4 - PHP5 (more info) 5.1.6 - PERL 5.6 (more info) 5.6.1 /usr/bin/perl PERL 5.8 (more info) 5.8.8 /usr/bin/perl5.8 Ruby 1.8.4 /usr/local/bin/ruby Python 2.4.3 /usr/local/bin/python MySQL 4 4.0.27 - MySQL 5 5.0.27 - ImageMagick - /usr/local/bin NetPBM - /usr/local/netpbm/bin Zend Optimizer /usr/local/Zend/bin Sendmail - /usr/lib/sendmail Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 20:15:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:15:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 22, 7 11:25:55 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/2/07 19:39, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > >> I think it's gotta be a ground-fault that's causing Witchy's problems. > > > > I am almost sure it is. > > Well, tonight I stripped the PSU down and there aren't any filtering caps, > at least not the X type ones I'm familiar with. Instead the mains cable > plugs into a honking big sealed tin box that terminates in a 2 inch earth > wire and 2 spade connectors that the live and neutral hook up to. Said earth > wire is bolted to the chassis and joined to a similar bolt holding the fan > to the case. > > Anyone seen something like this 'mains plug in a sealed tin box' arrangement Oh yes. That sounds like a mains filter unit. Inside there are several capacitors and inductors. If you're very lucky there'll be a schematic printed on the can somewhere. > before? The thing's got to be 4 or 5 inches by 2.5 inches so whatever goes > on in there is anyone's guess. If I was at work I may be tempted to unhook > the earth wire that's bolted to the chassis but it's there for a > reason....though normally I'd expect that to be there to ensure the psu > casing was never live. IOt may not do you any good to do that. Often the can is connected to the mains earth anyway, the wire is just there for a 'belt and braces' aproach. What I would do as a temporary measure is to remove that filter can altoghter and wire a mains cable (or IEC plug) with earth to the PSU chassis and live/neutral to the 2 spade terminals (this leaves the breaker in-circuit, right? I don't have a Pro in front of me at the moment, I can dig one out if need be). See if the machine still trips the mains. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 20:26:33 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:26:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45DE3192.9947795B@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 22, 7 04:13:11 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > The weak point in this scenario however, is the torture of programming the > > > 9815 and problems with the tape cartridges and drive of the 9815. Those > > > > What's wrong with programming the 9815? I thogut it was a fairly standard > > 4-level stack RPN machine. > > Let's see: > - awkward editing > - the display does not show you the instruction, you have to list on the > printer to see what you've done > - key-sequence instructions rather than expressive language statements > - very limited data-handling > - limited to no structure to the language > - etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. > > Or how about this: pretty much every lesson learned and development made in > languages and programming of the last 4 to 5 decades is missing. Considering the machine is 3 decades old, that would partly explain that... Actually, if you used a larger, more modern, machine as a mass-storage unit for the 915, you could possibly figure out the structure of the program storage and eb able to write programs on said other machine and download them to the 9815. At least that would get round the listing and editing problems. > > > Given that the plotter uses HP-GL as the control language, I began to think > > > along the same lines as Chuck wrote about a day ago: building a simple > > > parallel interface to the plotter HP-IB port that does just the data transfer > > > (minus all the HP-IB device selection, etc. functions) to connect it up to a > > > > Well, the 'device selection' just means you need to be able to assert the > > ATN line so you can send a command (it's sent over the 8 data lines with > > the normal handshake sequence). > > Additional complexity that's not needed in this scenario. I assume this plotter ahs a 'listen only' mode, where it's selected at power-on and doesn't need ot be addressed. Many HP plotters do. Of course you lose some functionality if you do that. Most HP plotters are HPIB talkers too, they can report the current plot size and pen position -- you could move the pen around with the buttons on the plotter and use the machine as a primitive digitiser (put a trace from some other instrument on the plotter bed, then move the carriage to points on that trace and read them into the computer). You might well not need this though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 20:28:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:28:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45DDC876.20424.2B253361@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 7 04:44:38 pm Message-ID: > > Something to keep in mind is that some of the HPIB plotters support a > smaller subset of HP GL than do the parallel or serial-interface > versions of the same plotter. AFAIK the plotter in question (HP9872) only exists as an HPIB model. Anyway, the OP has the HPIB plotter. I don;t think he wants to buy another machine.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 20:31:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:31:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: <20070222230254.6F34257E98@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Feb 22, 7 06:02:54 pm Message-ID: > > soda -> monitor > > > > Are there any other members for type soda? 8-) mouth? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 22 20:49:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:49:48 -0800 Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: References: <45DDC876.20424.2B253361@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 7 04:44:38 pm, Message-ID: <45DDE5CC.26310.2B97CE2B@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 2:28, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK the plotter in question (HP9872) only exists as an HPIB model. > > Anyway, the OP has the HPIB plotter. I don;t think he wants to buy > another machine.... Just remembering a snag I ran into. A plotting package I'd used made extensive use of the HP-GL "extras" and darned near drove me crazy trying to figure out why the HPIB plotter wasn't drawing the pretty pictures I told it to. It wasn't until I started dumping the HP-GL being sent and checking it with the plotter reference manual that I discovered the difference. Cheers, Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Feb 22 21:42:32 2007 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:42:32 -0500 Subject: Off-topic but still funny. In-Reply-To: <000d01c756ea$a8f4f3f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000d01c756ea$a8f4f3f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <45DE62A8.9050903@comcast.net> 2nd that motion....... [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Evan Koblentz wrote: > OT + minority = stupid to post. > > > > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 22 21:54:47 2007 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:54:47 -0800 Subject: plotters again - rs-232 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DE6587.50200@sbcglobal.net> I believe the RS-232 version is the 7220 series. At least they look the same, I have both. Bob Tony Duell wrote: >>Something to keep in mind is that some of the HPIB plotters support a >>smaller subset of HP GL than do the parallel or serial-interface >>versions of the same plotter. >> >> > >AFAIK the plotter in question (HP9872) only exists as an HPIB model. > >Anyway, the OP has the HPIB plotter. I don;t think he wants to buy >another machine.... > >-tony > > > > From hrothgar at total.net Thu Feb 22 22:08:16 2007 From: hrothgar at total.net (Hrothgar) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:08:16 -0400 Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45DD58A8.C4361004@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2007-02-22, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Inspired by all that talk of plotters last week, I lugged the box > containing the HP9872A upstairs and opened it for the first time in 6 > years. This message has twiddled some brain-bits. I have an HP DraftMaster I physically supporting an ecosystem of more modestly sized classic computing junk. It hasn't been powered up in a few years and I never had much use for it anyway. (There was some thought of building a book shelf into it some years ago...) Does anyone have an idea of what could be done with this thing? There would be several people happy if it disappeared, but it's not something I would ship anywhere. :-) My preference is not to murder it. Regards, -- Doug Spence From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 22 23:42:02 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:42:02 -0800 Subject: msc hpib disc on eBay Message-ID: <70257783-C37E-44A8-B76F-532203E1EA48@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170084570047 similar to what I just posted the manual for. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 01:06:45 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:06:45 -0800 Subject: Ethical dilemma, anyone want a copy of Spring MSDOS 5 Message-ID: This is, I hope, on topic as the subject is over 10 years old. I stopped by one of my favorite surplus thrift stores that sells old software and exclaimed in delight at seeing several new copies of the Spring edition of MSDOS 5. Now this edition is a counterfeit produced by a corporate executive of Everex I believe. The first person to go to jail for software piracy. I remember seeing this boxed set up and down the west coast in 1992 or so. It is MSDOS 5 on 5 1/2 inch disks with a manual and NO holofoil. it was easy to identify. However once I mentioned "counterfeit" I was "persona non grata." The manager grabbed the copies off the shelf and started to investigate using Google. He didn't get anywhere and so called Microsoft. They didn't have anyone there that remembered MSDOS 5, much less anything about counterfeit copys. He got referred to a website with no info and sat there looking at them. I suggested that no one is ever going to use MSDOS 5 again and just pretend He never heard me say anything. I apologised for upsetting his day and wasting at least an hour of this time. Given the lack of interest by Microsoft he put them back on the shelf. So I wondered if anyone on this list collects SW like this and would like a copy. There are several sealed editions (I think he opened one) that they are asking $5 for (too much in my opinion but it will go down if they do not sell - and who is going to buy MSDOS 5). Anyway that is the ethical dilemma... should they be sold as collectibles for any reason? I know I wouldn't dare to put it on Ebay I did buy a copy of IBM DOS 6.3, new unopened for $2. I think there is a collectible copy of the Microsoft MSDOS 6.0 upgrade, sealed. If anyone is looking for IBM or Apple SW of the vintage 1990 -1999 (I know OT) I can check. I got an original unopened box of Asymetrix Toolbox V3 for $1, also a Scelbi 6800 Software Gourmet Guide and Cook Book for $1. They also had a boxful of HP factory boxed HPUX 10 CDS that looks like it might be a complete set (maybe some doubles). They wanted $15 and I again upset them by offering $5. "This is a thrift sore and I set the prices" the manager said. I didn't buy it as I just got the free HPUX 11 set and haven't even had a chance to look at it. I do have an old 735 workstation that I was wondering if HPUX 10 would be better for. Should I get these? Another thing they have I am thinking about it a Apple Newton eMate 300 with case. They are asking $45. Is this reasonable? If it doesn't sell they have sales and I have learned to wait for them. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Feb 22 17:15:48 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:15:48 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DE2424.70608@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) >> Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two houses (and >> also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted transformers and wondered >> what their function is - I'd assumed they were step-down transformers from >> overhead line voltage (several KV I'd guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some >> completely different job? > > I think you're absoluately right. But they normally supply more than just > one house, don't they? > > OK, I was a little too definite in my original statement. I should have > said 'Pole pigs are rarely used in the UK, in towns/cities (at least), > many houses are supplied from the same transformer'. At my house up north, until they upgraded and added another transformer one "pole pig" was feeding about ten houses. At teatime when everyone turned their cookers on, line voltage sagged to about 200v... Gordon From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Thu Feb 22 18:06:44 2007 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:06:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked in the disk industry for several years (Fujitsu, Maxtor, and on the silicon side at Cirrus Logic.) and Google's findings are not unexpected. One of the major disk drive manufacturers (Quantum?) discovered a problem with their drives on Unix systems. Since Unix doesn't tend to make spurious reads and writes while sitting idle (Windows does it a LOT), the heads would sit in the same place for long periods of time, eventually pushing the lubricant aside, resulting in a head crash. The manufacturer countered this problem by running a butterfly seek every few minutes to level out the lubricant. In any event, spinup/spindown events are hard on the head/disk interface, and temperature cycling causes expansion/contraction which stresses marginal solder joints. I would expect very long lifetimes from hard drives. Most modern drives use fluid bearings for the spindle so, aside from degradation of the oil, they will last forever. Major IC manufacturers have a good handle on electromigration issues, so the IC's are unlikely to fail. Drive firmware has improved as well. Most drives will detect a block going bad (high correctable error rate) and move the data to a spare block. Unless you issue special commands to the drive you don't even notice the error and relocation occurred. It is a good idea to read everything on the drive occasionally so bad spots can be fixed before they corrupt the data. Enough rambling, Clint On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Google has a very vast herd of machines with a > large number of hard drives. Very fruitful > that they analyze failures and publish > the results to the web! > > While the drives they are studying are definitely > not classic (all dating from 2001 or later), > those of us who host large quantities of classic > material may find the results of interest: > > http://labs.google.com/papers/disk_failures.pdf > > Side note: at one point I found it unbelievable > that Google was using consumer-grade hardware > to host their stuff. Since then, I've developed a > lot of respect for this approach! > > Tim. > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Feb 23 01:11:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:11:01 -0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393DF5@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Just for illustration; our electricity supply here in England comes up from the Fawley power station near Southamption at 132kV on pylons. It goes to a substation at Thatcham about two miles distant. Its stepped down to 11kV and distributed over a radius of up to five miles on wooden poles with a metal T bar on top. In some areas its three phase and others not. Now comes the aforementioned transformer. Its normally mounted on one of the 11kV poles. It steps down to 235v and feeds a fair number of houses. Our supplies are fused at 60A or 100A at each house. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 22 February 2007 21:15 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D > > Tony Duell wrote: > > (there are no 'pole pigs' over here) > > Is that always true? Sometimes on rural roads with just one or two > houses (and also individually on farms) I've seen pole-mounted > transformers and wondered what their function is - I'd assumed they > were step-down transformers from overhead line voltage (several KV I'd > guess) to 240VAC. Or do they do some completely different job? I think you're absoluately right. But they normally supply more than just one house, don't they? OK, I was a little too definite in my original statement. I should have said 'Pole pigs are rarely used in the UK, in towns/cities (at least), many houses are supplied from the same transformer'. -tony From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 01:42:58 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:42:58 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070221130928.05879a48@mail> References: <45DC973E.7030709@shiresoft.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070221130928.05879a48@mail> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702222342y284fb489u3a7ce26ae39fb10e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/21/07, John Foust wrote: > > At 01:02 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote: > >There's an even *more* interesting paper on this from a CMU post-doc > (math warning...lots of statistics) that seems to blow away many (if not > all) assumptions about drive failures/quality/raid/etc. > > I saw this a few days ago but thought I shouldn't post because > it would be off-topic. > > - John > > Indeed...and I was criticized for posting a OT thread on this list before and here comes a OT thread that is openly discussed...what gives??? Why was I flamed while this guy is not? I just don't get it...:( From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 01:52:21 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:52:21 -0800 Subject: Ethical dilemma, anyone want a copy of Spring MSDOS 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DE2CB5.7627.2CACC9CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2007 at 23:06, Paxton Hoag wrote: > This is, I hope, on topic as the subject is over 10 years old. I > stopped by one of my favorite surplus thrift stores that sells old > software and exclaimed in delight at seeing several new copies of the > Spring edition of MSDOS 5. I've even seen them on eBay. I view them as historic artifacts. Here's the LookSmart summary: http://calbears.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NEW/is_1991_June_12/a i_10837930 I seem to remember that Lee was sentenced to 1 year for a misdemeanor conviction and was fined something like $15,000. He declared bankruptcy and didn't pay the fine. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Feb 23 02:10:17 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:10:17 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23/2/07 02:15, "Tony Duell" wrote: > Oh yes. That sounds like a mains filter unit. Inside there are several > capacitors and inductors. If you're very lucky there'll be a schematic > printed on the can somewhere. I'm not lucky :) All there is is a part number and legends telling me which is the line side and which is the load side. >> before? The thing's got to be 4 or 5 inches by 2.5 inches so whatever goes >> on in there is anyone's guess. If I was at work I may be tempted to unhook >> the earth wire that's bolted to the chassis but it's there for a >> reason....though normally I'd expect that to be there to ensure the psu >> casing was never live. > > IOt may not do you any good to do that. Often the can is connected to the > mains earth anyway, the wire is just there for a 'belt and braces' aproach. Aye. > What I would do as a temporary measure is to remove that filter can > altoghter and wire a mains cable (or IEC plug) with earth to the PSU > chassis and live/neutral to the 2 spade terminals (this leaves the > breaker in-circuit, right? I don't have a Pro in front of me at the > moment, I can dig one out if need be). See if the machine still trips the > mains. I'll cut up an IEC wire over the weekend and bypass it with fingers most definitely crossed. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 23 02:35:41 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:35:41 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: , <45DE3192.9947795B@cs.ubc.ca> <45DDC876.20424.2B253361@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DEA753.9D448832@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Something to keep in mind is that some of the HPIB plotters support a > smaller subset of HP GL than do the parallel or serial-interface > versions of the same plotter. Thanks for the note, the plotter manual does have a section on the HPGL commands it accepts, so that half is known, but should I ever end up with some other HPGL service/data to drive it, it's good to be aware of. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 23 02:38:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:38:12 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: Message-ID: <45DEA7EA.A135CEE8@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Or how about this: pretty much every lesson learned and development made in > > languages and programming of the last 4 to 5 decades is missing. > > Considering the machine is 3 decades old, that would partly explain that... Em. on partly. Regardless, it doesn't make the programming any less tortured today. > I assume this plotter ahs a 'listen only' mode, where it's selected at > power-on and doesn't need ot be addressed. Many HP plotters do. > > Of course you lose some functionality if you do that. Most HP plotters > are HPIB talkers too, they can report the current plot size and pen > position -- you could move the pen around with the buttons on the plotter > and use the machine as a primitive digitiser (put a trace from some other > instrument on the plotter bed, then move the carriage to points on that > trace and read them into the computer). You might well not need this though. The 9815 interface supports the digitising functions regardless of the (non-)addressability issue, so that functionality is not lost. (My unit even came with the digitising sight.) >From the schematics, the 9815 interface asserts a signal on the special connector on the plotter, said signal ends up on the plotter microprocessor bus, so the plotter microproc is distinguishing 9815 vs HPIB and acting appropriately. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Feb 23 03:04:52 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:04:52 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0cd401c75729$ae03f8c0$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) -snip Anyone seen something like this 'mains plug in a sealed tin box' arrangement before? The thing's got to be 4 or 5 inches by 2.5 inches so whatever goes on in there is anyone's guess. If I was at work I may be tempted to unhook the earth wire that's bolted to the chassis but it's there for a reason....though normally I'd expect that to be there to ensure the psu casing was never live. -/snip- Apple used devices like this in their 21" monitors, I forget the model #'s , when I was working for a local scrapper in the seattle area, we got 30 of these in as "dead" 28 of them were resurrected by replacing the filter units with similarly rated units from a local parts place. We were given the monitors as scrap, the replacement parts were $14.95 each and we sold the monitors after making sure that was the only repairs that they needed for $395.00 to 595.00 (the monitors were over a grand new at the time) From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 23 05:04:19 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:04:19 -0500 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:32:12 EST." Message-ID: <200702231104.l1NB4JFx028820@mwave.heeltoe.com> Kevin Schoedel wrote: > >The first prototype quartz crystal watch was developed by a Swiss company, >CEH, in 1962. The first commercial quartz crystal watch was the Seiko 35SQ, >in 1969. The first to market in the USA was the Accuquartz from Bulova, a >Swiss company, in 1970. Any idea when the first all electric watch was put out? Gary Boone used to tell some interesting stories about a chip he worked on for (I think) an LED watch. I think a flaw kept them from bring first to market, however. [heh, and someone told me over lunch the other day that the guy I'm doing work for "worked on some sort of 4 way multiprocessor at DEC"... I think it was a pdp-11 :-) i need to ask about *that*!] -brad From ebubekr at web.de Fri Feb 23 07:44:11 2007 From: ebubekr at web.de (ebubekr at web.de) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:44:11 +0100 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni Message-ID: <1677927075@web.de> hi guys, I am searching after a old (very old) harddisk drive and want to ask do you have any? or any ideas where can I get that? thanx abu ak regards *Von:* "Mark Csele" *Gesendet:* 16.02.07 21:07:23 *An:* *Betreff:* FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni Sorry, I don't have parts for sale. The only sourec I know-of is ebay or you could try the old computer group (cctech at classiccmp.org ) to see if anyone has parts available. msc Professor Mark Csele Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 >>> 2/13/2007 4:32 PM >>> *Von:* "Mark Csele" *Gesendet:* 23.01.07 20:16:26 *An:* *Betreff:* Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MCSELE" at Niagara College ...) Your e-mail was REJECTED by the Anise anti-spam filter, or by one of two virus scanners, and was never received by the recipient. Please re-send your message with a meaningful subject line such as one of the following: Photonics, Lasers, Program Inquiry, Computer technology, history of ..., Rankine, fundamentals of lights, etc. You may also use a generic breakthru code by simply including the words 'Niagara college' in your subject line. Inclusion of such a subject will ensure the message gets through. Sorry for the inconvenience but 95% of all e-mail received at this address is spam. If you did _not_ send the attached e-mail, simply ignore this message as the original was deleted. As the system runs, the database of addresses and search patterns grows and rejections like this will become rare. If all else fails, please leave a fax at (905) 736-6005 with your email address and it will be added manually to the database. >>> ebubekr 01/23/07 14:11 >>> hi, I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if sale the magnetic and coils from the odl diskdrives? or do you have a idea where can I get any? thanx abu ak regards Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsst?rkeren E-Mail-Postfach! Mehr Infos unter *http://freemail.web.de/home/landingpad/?mc=021131* [http://freemail.web.de/home/landingpad/?mc=021131] Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! *http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222* [http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222] Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! *http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222* [http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 23 08:16:28 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:16:28 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702222342y284fb489u3a7ce26ae39fb10e@mail.gmail.co m> References: <45DC973E.7030709@shiresoft.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20070221130928.05879a48@mail> <5dc6fd9e0702222342y284fb489u3a7ce26ae39fb10e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070223081420.07da4450@mail> At 01:42 AM 2/23/2007, Hex Star wrote: >Indeed...and I was criticized for posting a OT thread on this list before >and here comes a OT thread that is openly discussed...what gives??? Why was >I flamed while this guy is not? I just don't get it...:( Tim's a well-respected guru so he gets more slack than a newcomer behind an alias. :-) To play devil's advocate, it is more relevant than many OT posts. Longevity of disk drives is a significant concern to computer collectors, no? The study is about contemporary drives that may have very different parameters than old drives, though. But it's always interesting to see rules of thumb and "common wisdom" pushed aside by data and analysis. - John From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Feb 23 08:43:23 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:43:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Off-topic but still *not* funny. In-Reply-To: <008c01c756e9$7d5ca220$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <20070223144323.9E2CC58018@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Julian Wolfe > > We were talking in the ccmp IRC channel and I thought I'd share this > hi-larious photo: > > http://tinyurl.com/2884e4 > > Enjoy. **NOT** Why is an old OT thread being reanimated?! Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 23 09:34:36 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:34:36 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures References: <45DC973E.7030709@shiresoft.com><6.2.3.4.2.20070221130928.05879a48@mail> <5dc6fd9e0702222342y284fb489u3a7ce26ae39fb10e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00db01c75760$21977740$6600a8c0@BILLING> Hexxie wrote.... > Indeed...and I was criticized for posting a OT thread on this list before > and here comes a OT thread that is openly discussed...what gives??? Why > was > I flamed while this guy is not? I just don't get it...:( One might view a discussion of modern hard drives in and of itself as being off-topic. However in this case I believe that this thread came about due to a discussion of preservation of historical data, which would necessitate discussion of modern hard drives. Many of us are preserving old software and of course are interested in the best ways to do so using whatever means necessary and need to know how long into the future that method may be considered reliable. Thus a brief discussion of modern hard drive failure rates in that light is on-topic IMHO. Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 23 09:48:42 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:48:42 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702222342y284fb489u3a7ce26ae39fb10e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070221130928.05879a48@mail> <5dc6fd9e0702222342y284fb489u3a7ce26ae39fb10e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702231048.42891.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 23 February 2007 02:42, Hex Star wrote: > Indeed...and I was criticized for posting a OT thread on this list > before and here comes a OT thread that is openly discussed...what > gives??? Why was I flamed while this guy is not? I just don't get > it...:( Whining about the inequities of life is off-topic. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 23 09:55:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:55:12 -0600 Subject: KDJ11-SD Boot ROMs Message-ID: <45DF0E60.2010706@mdrconsult.com> Does anyone have a checksum for the PDP-11/53 ROMs? I'm converting an M7554-SD. The ROMs from M7554-04, I think, are the ones I need. According to Jonathan Engdahl's page, they are 261E5.hex and 262E5.hex. I have a set of images already, and have one system running with them, but my EPROM-burner-guy is having trouble with 262E5.hex. I want to make sure I have a good image before I tell him to try harder. :) Thanks! Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 23 09:59:57 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:59:57 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? Message-ID: <45DF0F7D.1080206@bitsavers.org> > I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if > sale the magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives? no --al (who is trying to find a working CDC 9766 right now) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 23 10:12:25 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:12:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: eMate 300 was Re: Ethical dilemma, anyone want a copy of Spring MSDOS 5 In-Reply-To: from Paxton Hoag at "Feb 22, 7 11:06:45 pm" Message-ID: <200702231612.l1NGCPiQ013008@floodgap.com> > Another thing they have I am thinking about it a Apple Newton eMate > 300 with case. They are asking $45. Is this reasonable? Exceptionally reasonable. Where the heck is this store?? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Two can live as cheaply as one, for half as long. -------------------------- From drb at msu.edu Fri Feb 23 10:15:57 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:15:57 -0500 Subject: Wanted: CBM-to-IEEE cable Message-ID: <200702231615.l1NGFvIO003160@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Hi, I'm in need of a PET-style IEEE cable to connect an 8032 to its peripherals. Anyone have one they're willing to part with? This is the kind with the card edge connector on one end, and the more traditional centronics-style IEEE connector on the other. Thanks, De From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Feb 23 11:06:00 2007 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:06:00 -0500 Subject: DEC VR01-A Display Unit (AKA Tek RM503 oscilloscope) Message-ID: <45DF1EF8.8010906@nktelco.net> I just got ahold of a Tek RM503 oscilloscope. According to some documents I have found DEC sold this as the VR01-A. This one is probably not from DEC. First, does anyone know if there were any modifications made to use it as a point plot scope? It looks like there was just a cable that connected to the Z-axis/crt grid input on the back. Second, this scope has differential amplifiers for both horizontal and vertical inputs. I can't get the amplifiers to balance and so for any setting more sensitive than .1v/cm I can't get the trace on the screen. This shouldn't be a problem for how I want to use the scope, but I would like to have it fully functional and calibrated. Digging around inside, I see that the bias voltages for the cathode followers are not the same and this throws the whole differential amp out of balance. It can be compensated for at low gains by using the POSITION knob. If there are any valve or Tek scope experts out there, they can contact me offline so I can ask some naive questions about tubes. -chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 23 11:48:46 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:48:46 -0600 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found Message-ID: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've brought this up on the list a couple times, and the concensus among fellow HP'ers was always "these connectors aren't around anymore". Some are happy to just push a resistor into the 21MX battery connector, but I have one of the HP connectors built specifically as a battery eliminator plug and I wanted more. The resistors can fall out if just pushed in or not make good contact. After working with someone at AMP (Tyco), the following information is available: These are the old AMP "MR" (miniature rectangle) connectors. Here's the parts for a HP 21MX battery eliminator plug, with AMP part numbers & mouser prices: Pin housing (cap) 1-640511-0 $0.82 Strain relief (shell) 350522-1 $1.24 Live split pin contact (tin, 26-18 awg) 640545-1 $0.17 (need 2) or Live split pin contact (tin, 26-24 awg) 640579-1 (need 2) or Live split pin contact (gold, 26-18 awg) 640545-2 $0.40 (need 2) or Live split pin contact (gold, 26-24 awg) 640579-2 (need 2) These are all current production parts and still available new. The only mismatch - the HP plugs were black and these are red :) If I build up a bunch of battery eliminator plugs, I wonder if I can get $20 each on ebay ;) Hope this helps folks! Jay West From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 11:53:26 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:53:26 -0800 Subject: KDJ11-SD Boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <45DF0E60.2010706@mdrconsult.com> References: <45DF0E60.2010706@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702230953v58fd8bf5yd1dc418e35be377c@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > Does anyone have a checksum for the PDP-11/53 ROMs? I'm converting > an M7554-SD. The ROMs from M7554-04, I think, are the ones I need. > According to Jonathan Engdahl's page, they are 261E5.hex and 262E5.hex. > You can try the straight .BIN files instead of .HEX files. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/23-261E5.bin http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/23-262E5.bin Let us know how your conversion goes. What are you doing to convert the s-box hardware? I have a M7554-SD and need to do the same some day. -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 12:00:49 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:00:49 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702231000g2a6f015dw3291ac4a49e4921d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Jay West wrote: > Here's the parts for a HP 21MX battery eliminator plug, with AMP part > numbers & mouser prices: > Pin housing (cap) 1-640511-0 $0.82 > Strain relief (shell) 350522-1 $1.24 > Live split pin contact (tin, 26-18 awg) 640545-1 $0.17 (need 2) > or > Live split pin contact (tin, 26-24 awg) 640579-1 (need 2) > or > Live split pin contact (gold, 26-18 awg) 640545-2 $0.40 (need 2) > or > Live split pin contact (gold, 26-24 awg) 640579-2 (need 2) > Thanks Jay. I had given up trying to find the right connectors new. Mouser lists part 1-640511-0 as No Stock, but Digi-Key lists them in stock $1.11 > If I build up a bunch of battery eliminator plugs, I wonder if I can get $20 > each on ebay ;) > No, eBay practice is to take a perfectly good working cable and then cut it in half and then sell that. :-) From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Feb 23 12:04:32 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:04:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: CBM-to-IEEE cable Message-ID: <01C7574B.452D2A20@mse-d03> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:15:57 -0500 From: Dennis Boone Subject: Wanted: CBM-to-IEEE cable Hi, I'm in need of a PET-style IEEE cable to connect an 8032 to its peripherals. Anyone have one they're willing to part with? This is the kind with the card edge connector on one end, and the more traditional centronics-style IEEE connector on the other. Thanks, De --------------------- Not mine, and not cheap, but if you're desperate enough: www.jppbm.com mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 23 12:16:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:16:12 -0600 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found References: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e90702231000g2a6f015dw3291ac4a49e4921d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> Glen wrote... > Thanks Jay. I had given up trying to find the right connectors new. > Mouser lists part 1-640511-0 as No Stock, but Digi-Key lists them in > stock $1.11 I think for most typical resistors you'd put in the housing, the appropriate pin is the one for 24awg. I already have a few spare connectors that were cut from cables, so I plan to just get new pins for those. I'll crimp the new pins on a resistor, pull all the old pins & wires and I should be good to go. If I need more then I'll buy a few of the housings too. There is one possible discrepancy I just noticed on the old vs. new connectors. On the locking tabs the old style connector has a small rectangular hole to allow the mating connector tab to lock in. On the new connector locking tabs there is instead a hook formed on the end with no hole. Visually it appears that the new connector would work with the old style socket as far as the lock tabs go, but I can't be completely certain. Worst case the locking function may not work, we'll see. If working with an old connector, the pins are fairly difficult to get out. There is a tool to do it, AMP part 455822-2. Mouser lists it as $22 but cms-tools.com lists it at $14. On most RS232 pins you can push them out the back with needlenose pliers if you're careful instead of using a tool. That approach doesn't work on the MR connectors, so may have to get the tool. I'm experimenting with a RS232 pin tool to see if it will depress the MR connector pin locks correctly. Jay From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 12:20:24 2007 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:20:24 -0500 Subject: Wanted: CBM-to-IEEE cable In-Reply-To: <01C7574B.452D2A20@mse-d03> References: <01C7574B.452D2A20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4affc5e0702231020u280a8fdtb9f82cfcd26f07b@mail.gmail.com> On 23/02/07, M H Stein wrote: > --------------------- > Not mine, and not cheap, but if you're desperate enough: > > www.jppbm.com > > mike Is that guy still around? I tried sending an email - I want to buy one of the 1581 kits - but didn't get a reply... Supposedly, he was at World of Commodore in december. Joe. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 12:46:07 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:46:07 -0800 Subject: eMate 300 was Re: Ethical dilemma, anyone want a copy of Spring MSDOS 5 In-Reply-To: <200702231612.l1NGCPiQ013008@floodgap.com> References: <200702231612.l1NGCPiQ013008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 2/23/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Another thing they have I am thinking about it a Apple Newton eMate > > 300 with case. They are asking $45. Is this reasonable? > > Exceptionally reasonable. Where the heck is this store?? > Nextstep Recycling Thrift Store, Eugene Oregon. They don't ship that I know of, a true non profit thrift store. As to the price I checked Ebay and they seem to be selling about the same price, some cheaper. I like the look of the kit though, it is just my entire budget for my store trip. Paxton Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Feb 23 12:47:36 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:47:36 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures Message-ID: Hextar wrote: > Indeed...and I was criticized for posting a OT > thread on this list before and here comes a OT > thread that is openly discussed...what gives??? Why was > I flamed while this guy is not? I just don't get it...:( If you post a thread that is immediately perceived by everybody as another chapter of Mac.vs PC flame-bait, and you get flamed, are you surprised? I'm not innocent myself, but most who post flame-bait have enough experience to know that they're posting flame-bait. Speaking as "this guy", I feel that data preservation (cross-platform) for long periods of time is an interest shared by many/most on this list, as is storage (especially storage media and hardware) longevity. I mean, keeping 40-year-old or older peripherals up and going is a fine goal. But when it's done to move the data to more modern media, especially when it's of interest to classiccmp members, that's even better. In fact I strongly believe that storage and peripherals are far more interesting than CPU's. I am strongly influenced by the fact that my day job is working with a $10billion peripheral. There are a few co-believers with me but we're not all that vocal or large in numbers. It is true that most of the industry papers are very little concerned with history back more than 5 years, and I found it useful to read what others on this list wrote on the subject. Tim. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 12:56:56 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:56:56 -0800 Subject: DEC VR01-A Display Unit (AKA Tek RM503 oscilloscope) In-Reply-To: <45DF1EF8.8010906@nktelco.net> References: <45DF1EF8.8010906@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 2/23/07, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I just got ahold of a Tek RM503 oscilloscope. According to some > documents I have found DEC sold this as the VR01-A. This one is probably > not from DEC. First, does anyone know if there were any modifications > made to use it as a point plot scope? It looks like there was just a > cable that connected to the Z-axis/crt grid input on the back. > > Second, this scope has differential amplifiers for both horizontal and > vertical inputs. I can't get the amplifiers to balance and so for any > setting more sensitive than .1v/cm I can't get the trace on the screen. > This shouldn't be a problem for how I want to use the scope, but I would > like to have it fully functional and calibrated. > > Digging around inside, I see that the bias voltages for the cathode > followers are not the same and this throws the whole differential amp > out of balance. It can be compensated for at low gains by using the > POSITION knob. If there are any valve or Tek scope experts out there, > they can contact me offline so I can ask some naive questions about tubes. > > -chuck This yahoo group is your friend. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ Nearly 3000 people that know a lot about old Tek scopes, including some who probably built your 503. Hmm, that is a long time a go, at least some who have worked on them. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 13:02:24 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:02:24 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231102s181aca7p4e1024bec93a08e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Hextar wrote: > > Indeed...and I was criticized for posting a OT > > thread on this list before and here comes a OT > > thread that is openly discussed...what gives??? Why was > > I flamed while this guy is not? I just don't get it...:( > > If you post a thread that is immediately perceived > by everybody as another chapter of Mac.vs PC > flame-bait, and you get flamed, are you surprised? > > I'm not innocent myself, but most who post flame-bait > have enough experience to know that they're posting > flame-bait. > > Speaking as "this guy", I feel that data preservation > (cross-platform) for long periods of time is an interest > shared by many/most on this list, as is storage > (especially storage media and hardware) longevity. > > I mean, keeping 40-year-old or older peripherals > up and going is a fine goal. But when it's done to > move the data to more modern media, especially > when it's of interest to classiccmp members, that's > even better. > > In fact I strongly believe that storage and > peripherals are far more interesting than CPU's. > I am strongly influenced by the fact that my day > job is working with a $10billion peripheral. > There are a few co-believers with me but > we're not all that vocal or large in numbers. > > It is true that most of the industry papers are > very little concerned with history back more than > 5 years, and I found it useful to read what > others on this list wrote on the subject. > > Tim. > Ok, ok sorry...I've learned several things from this: 1) Long time users can get away with some OT threads while newcomers like me cannot 2) This thread is about the preservation of data for long periods of time which can if you think about it be related to the preservation of vintage data thus making this thread on topic 3) When many members on this list find a OT thread to contain useful and not widely available information it is accepted even though it's OT correct? As for long time preservation, I too am interested in that as I have a pretty big size collection of vintage software and just valuable software in general that I'm constantly looking for long backup solutions for which currently consist of backing up on one-two HD's depending on the size of the file(s) and cd-r's which seems to me like the best current solution since HD's don't last that long unfortunately...but even cd-rs don't last forever...is there currently or will there ever be a good long time permanent solution for good promising backups? Is my current backup solution good or is there more I should be doing to ensure the longativity of my software archive? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 23 13:16:03 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:16:03 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures Message-ID: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> > is there currently or will there ever be a good long time > permanent solution for good promising backups? no you have to assume that you will migrate digital files to media capable of being read reliably until the next generation of mass storage arrives. all of the other protections (redundancy, error correction, etc.) need to be in place as well to protect against migration of data that has already been corrupted. the good news is that transfer rates and bit density increase with time, so old data is easier to migrate the bad news is the amount of data to migrate is increasing exponentially From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 13:21:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:21:36 -0500 Subject: CDC disks (was Re: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives?) Message-ID: On 2/23/07, Al Kossow wrote: > --al (who is trying to find a working CDC 9766 right now) Hmm... I think I have a 9766 stored with my PDP-11/70s. I picked it up for a list member (whose name I've lost track of) to swap for some PDP-8/i memory, but the pickup never took place. If this jogs someone's mind, please speak up. If not, I may have a drive in unknown state (_I_ have never powered it up) available sometime this year. I used to repair CDC 9762s and 9766s about 20 years ago, but don't really miss them all that much. ;-) -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 23 13:34:19 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:34:19 -0800 Subject: CDC disks (was Re: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives?) Message-ID: <45DF41BB.4060003@bitsavers.org> > If this jogs someone's mind, please speak up. If not, I may have a drive in > unknown state (_I_ have never powered it up) available sometime this year. ok. just got several Prime disc packs that I need to try reading. > I used to repair CDC 9762s and 9766s about 20 years ago, but don't > really miss them all that much. never liked working on washing machine drives much either. too many scary high speed rotating/moving parts From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 13:35:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:35:58 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45DED19E.21663.2F30FC95@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 12:16, Jay West wrote: > If working with an old connector, the pins are fairly difficult to get out. > There is a tool to do it, AMP part 455822-2. Mouser lists it as $22 but > cms-tools.com lists it at $14. On most RS232 pins you can push them out the > back with needlenose pliers if you're careful instead of using a tool. That > approach doesn't work on the MR connectors, so may have to get the tool. I'm > experimenting with a RS232 pin tool to see if it will depress the MR > connector pin locks correctly. If that doesn't work, you may want to look at hobby-shop thinwall brass tubing to fabricate your own tool. It's quite inexpensive and the brass is easy to work. The operative magic incantation is "K&S tubing". http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/metal_center_details.asp Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 23 13:39:22 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:39:22 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures References: <5dc6fd9e0702231102s181aca7p4e1024bec93a08e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005101c75782$53096c80$6600a8c0@BILLING> Hexxie wrote.... > 1) Long time users can get away with some OT threads while newcomers like > me > cannot This is generally not true, a few long time users who have been chastised by me would beg to disagree with you ;) > 2) This thread is about the preservation of data for long periods of time > which can if you think about it be related to the preservation of vintage > data thus making this thread on topic Not sure I understand what you're saying. Long story short, there are some professional and some hobbyist media preservationists here. The reliability of storage media is quite important to them (and to those of us that hope those bits of data are around 20 years from now). The whole topic was brought up with regards to how to keep critical vintage system data (like boot disks, etc.) around. > 3) When many members on this list find a OT thread to contain useful and > not > widely available information it is accepted even though it's OT That depends on how far off-topic it is. I have the rather dubious task of making that distinction. > I'm constantly looking for long backup solutions for which > currently consist of backing up on one-two HD's depending on the size of > the > file(s) and cd-r's which seems to me like the best current solution since > HD's don't last that long unfortunately...but even cd-rs don't last > forever.. I believe the generally accepted shelf-life of CDR media is somewhere around 5-7 years, depending on how well handled/stored. CDR's thus fail to be worthy of consideration when talking about media preservation. I believe I am correct that generally accepted practice for preservation is having a policy in place to rotate media every X years, where X is substantially less than the projected media life. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 23 13:41:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:41:27 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > is there currently or will there ever be a good long time > > permanent solution for good promising backups? > > no Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) theoretically make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human POV) length of time, such as a few hundred years? Yes, I suspect so. Will that ever happen? No, because society's not geared around "short termism" rather than producing things that will last several generations. > the good news is that transfer rates and bit density increase with > time, so old data is easier to migrate > > the bad news is the amount of data to migrate is increasing exponentially ... and it's never a done deal that reliability over a "long enough" period of time will actually increase. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 23 13:43:52 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:43:52 -0600 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found References: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> <45DED19E.21663.2F30FC95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006001c75782$f3ee8a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> Chuck wrote... > If that doesn't work, you may want to look at hobby-shop thinwall > brass tubing to fabricate your own tool. Yup, I thought of that. My own decision process was... 1) Hey, I just need a tube that has the exact inner diameter of the pin and an outer diameter smaller than the hole the pin is in. 2) Oh, I don't have any metal tubing on hand, I'd have to go to the hobby store or home depot. 3) Once I get there, there's a fair chance that I can find the right inner diameter but it might be too big of an outer diameter. 4) The pin tool is only $14, and it's worth it to me time-wise not to drive to the store and possibly not find the right tube ;) YMMV, especially on point 2 :) Jay From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Feb 23 13:57:08 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:57:08 -0500 Subject: EDAX 9100 (PDP 11/23+) is now available. References: <45DF41BB.4060003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002d01c75784$cf676d70$0100a8c0@screamer> I've gotten the EDAX 9100 system discussed on the list a short while back. All the paperwork has been done, and I loaded the whole system into the back of a Jeep and brought it home. The main chassis is much lighter than it appeared, two people were easily able to lift it off the ground and load it into the back of the Jeep. So who wants this beastie? Delivery within a reasonable distance is possible, so long as you help lift the thing out of the Jeep. Trades welcome. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:04:10 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:04:10 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) theoretically > make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human POV) > length of time, such as a few hundred years? Art. -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 23 14:13:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:13:52 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DF4B00.8050508@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) >> theoretically >> make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human POV) >> length of time, such as a few hundred years? > > Art. OK, apart from art ;-) I was going to make some humourous comment, but you're right in that it *is* a data storage medium in a lot of cases, just not one with a very high density... From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 23 14:16:47 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:16:47 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> At 02:04 PM 2/23/2007, William Donzelli wrote: >>Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) theoretically >>make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human POV) >>length of time, such as a few hundred years? > >Art. So clearly the proper way to preserve our antique data is to use steganography to embed it inside of pictures that people will want to keep for generations, collected and redistributed in a redundant fashion all around the world. Why, the Internet is halfway there already. I'll stop now. - John From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:19:28 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:19:28 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DF4B00.8050508@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <45DF4B00.8050508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231219o1ac16012y7021b56779990c92@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > William Donzelli wrote: > >> Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) > >> theoretically > >> make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human > POV) > >> length of time, such as a few hundred years? > > > > Art. > > OK, apart from art ;-) I was going to make some humourous comment, but > you're > right in that it *is* a data storage medium in a lot of cases, just not > one > with a very high density... > > Do those mass manufactured cds last longer then cd-rs? How long do those last? Why can't we create cds like those? (How do they do it?) From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:21:16 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:21:16 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231221g384d82a2kf1915644a92b7140@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, John Foust wrote: > > At 02:04 PM 2/23/2007, William Donzelli wrote: > >>Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) > theoretically > >>make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human > POV) > >>length of time, such as a few hundred years? > > > >Art. > > So clearly the proper way to preserve our antique data is to use > steganography to embed it inside of pictures that people will > want to keep for generations, collected and redistributed in a > redundant fashion all around the world. > > Why, the Internet is halfway there already. > > I'll stop now. > > - John > > Pictures do fade after a while you know so those aren't perfect means of storage either (rats!) ;-) :-p From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:22:44 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:22:44 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702231221g384d82a2kf1915644a92b7140@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> <5dc6fd9e0702231221g384d82a2kf1915644a92b7140@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231222j5fc820c4l3f34391b0f602d05@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > > On 2/23/07, John Foust wrote: > > > > At 02:04 PM 2/23/2007, William Donzelli wrote: > > >>Good answer :) Certainly not permanent. Could we (as a species) > > theoretically > > >>make something that will last for a fairly significant (from a human > > POV) > > >>length of time, such as a few hundred years? > > > > > >Art. > > > > So clearly the proper way to preserve our antique data is to use > > steganography to embed it inside of pictures that people will > > want to keep for generations, collected and redistributed in a > > redundant fashion all around the world. > > > > Why, the Internet is halfway there already. > > > > I'll stop now. > > > > - John > > > > > Pictures do fade after a while you know so those aren't perfect means of > storage either (rats!) ;-) :-p > perhaps the best means of storage after all these years in regards to longativity was those punch cards? :P wonder what a 1GB punchcard would look like... From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:26:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:26:12 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? In-Reply-To: <45DF0F7D.1080206@bitsavers.org> References: <45DF0F7D.1080206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45DF4DE4.6020104@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if > > sale the magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives? > > no Hear hear!! Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Feb 23 14:23:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:23:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702232029.PAA09069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Could we (as a species) theoretically make something that will last > for a fairly significant (from a human POV) length of time, such as a > few hundred years? Certainly. And forget centrues; try millennia. The Pyramids. The Sphinx. Stonehenge. The French cave paintings. Old Greek and Roman coins from archaeological digs. Of course, they're not much good for backups (which is where this started), unless you have *really* small amounts of data to back up, but yes, we as a species can create artifacts that last many centuries; we know this because we have artifacts that have already lasted many centuries. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:30:40 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:30:40 -0800 Subject: Off-topic but still *not* funny. In-Reply-To: <20070223144323.9E2CC58018@mail.wordstock.com> References: <008c01c756e9$7d5ca220$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <20070223144323.9E2CC58018@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231230q38dbc2ddo3412228ad69c0dd6@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Bryan Pope wrote: > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Julian Wolfe > > > > We were talking in the ccmp IRC channel and I thought I'd share this > > hi-larious photo: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2884e4 > > > > Enjoy. > > **NOT** > > Why is an old OT thread being reanimated?! > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > How is that funny? What a waste of bandwidth... From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:34:07 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:34:07 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? In-Reply-To: <45DF4DE4.6020104@gmail.com> References: <45DF0F7D.1080206@bitsavers.org> <45DF4DE4.6020104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231234t168f65b6je4c3698d4f0e6f24@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if > > > sale the magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives? > > > > no > > Hear hear!! > > Peace... Sridhar > http://computers.search.ebay.com/disk-drive_Vintage-Computing-Products_W0QQcatrefZC6QQfgtpZQQfposZ94710QQfromZR2QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQlopgZQQsacatZ11189QQsadisZ200QQsaprchiZQQsaprcloZQQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbs http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=hard+drive&sacat=11189%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=94710&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=2%26fsoo%3D2&fgtp= http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=harddrive&sacat=11189%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=94710&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=2%26fsoo%3D2 http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=hd&sacat=11189%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=94710&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=2%26fsoo%3D2 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 23 15:24:53 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:24:53 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? Message-ID: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> > Al Kossow wrote: > > > I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if > > > sale the magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives? > > > > no > > Hear hear!! > > Peace... Sridhar > -- html links to eBay auctions clipped. "magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives" aren't what you'll find in commodity discs today. I assume he's asking about linear motors from large drives, circa '85 and earlier, which have mostly gone into landfills. A linear motor from an early 80's drive is on the order of 4" x 8" with a pretty massive casting. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Feb 23 15:30:02 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:30:02 +0000 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DD91CC.1951.2A4FADF7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45DC791B.23647.260740C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <45DD598B.1070903@gjcp.net> <45DD91CC.1951.2A4FADF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DF5CDA.7040602@gifford.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to remember at least one of the old systems from the 1950's > had a plain old analogue clock mounted on the operator's console. > That machine had a clock, but which one it was escapes me. Nice > touch, though. Wasn't that the Ferranti Pegasus? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 15:29:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:29:17 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <006001c75782$f3ee8a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> References: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <006001c75782$f3ee8a90$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45DEEC2D.30722.2F98BB97@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 13:43, Jay West wrote: > YMMV, especially on point 2 :) Gotcha. What distinguishes us most I suppose is the contents of our hellboxes. Mine has lots of yellow metal in it, but sadly, not of the precious variety. :) Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 23 15:30:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:30:01 -0700 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:16:47 -0600. <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340 at mail>, John Foust writes: > So clearly the proper way to preserve our antique data is to use > steganography to embed it inside of pictures that people will > want to keep for generations, collected and redistributed in a > redundant fashion all around the world. I wondered what that weird oscillating pattern was in the shaved head of Britney Spears. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 15:45:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:45:13 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <200702232029.PAA09069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org>, <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk>, <200702232029.PAA09069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45DEEFE9.1055.2FA750EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 15:23, der Mouse wrote: > Of course, they're not much good for backups (which is where this > started), unless you have *really* small amounts of data to back up, > but yes, we as a species can create artifacts that last many centuries; > we know this because we have artifacts that have already lasted many > centuries. Heck, we've "manufactured" artifacts that will last for a hundred thousand years or more. Just google "Yucca Mountain". Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 23 15:50:20 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:50:20 -0700 Subject: Computer related Modern Marvels @ dvdplanet for $15 ea. Message-ID: This is a good price on these dvds: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 15:57:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:57:39 -0800 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <45DF5CDA.7040602@gifford.co.uk> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D29C42F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <45DD91CC.1951.2A4FADF7@cclist.sydex.com>, <45DF5CDA.7040602@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <45DEF2D3.29071.2FB2B166@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 21:30, John Honniball wrote: > Wasn't that the Ferranti Pegasus? That certainly was one--are there any others? http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~ef/ComputerXHistory/FirstComputers-1/1958- PegasusGeneralView.jpg Cheers, CHuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Feb 23 16:55:32 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:55:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8-inch dual floppy drives need homes Message-ID: I have around ten 8-inch dual floppy drive units which need a new home. An advert is on http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ under the name "frotz661", the same name I use on Ebay. Pictures will be added over the weekend. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 23 17:16:55 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:16:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni In-Reply-To: <1677927075@web.de> References: <1677927075@web.de> Message-ID: <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 ebubekr at web.de wrote: > hi guys, > I am searching after a old (very old) harddisk drive and want to ask do > you have any? or any ideas where can I get that? Your first step should be to state what you want. Different people have different meanings for "old (very old)". To some people, that means an IDE drive that is less than 1GB. To some people, that means any MFM drive, such as ST4096. To some people, that means 24 inch platters. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 17:11:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:11:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <45DED19E.21663.2F30FC95@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 7 11:35:58 am Message-ID: > If that doesn't work, you may want to look at hobby-shop thinwall > brass tubing to fabricate your own tool. It's quite inexpensive and > the brass is easy to work. The operative magic incantation is "K&S > tubing". Most good model shops over here have the rack of K&S metal rods, tubes, strips, etc. Very useful... _BUT_ I don't know what alloy the brass is, but it doesn't machine as well as the 'CZ121' brass. Not a problem unless you intend to stick it on the lathe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 16:45:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:45:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 23, 7 08:10:17 am Message-ID: > > On 23/2/07 02:15, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > Oh yes. That sounds like a mains filter unit. Inside there are several > > capacitors and inductors. If you're very lucky there'll be a schematic > > printed on the can somewhere. > > I'm not lucky :) All there is is a part number and legends telling me which > is the line side and which is the load side. Hang on... Isn't the mains input IEC plug part of the filter unit? In other words all wires are on the load side? If not (that is, if there are wires for the input side that go to a separate IEC plug), you could temporarily disocnnect it, and replace it with a couple of bits of wire. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 17:16:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:16:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Feb 23, 7 12:16:12 pm Message-ID: > > Glen wrote... > > Thanks Jay. I had given up trying to find the right connectors new. > > Mouser lists part 1-640511-0 as No Stock, but Digi-Key lists them in > > stock $1.11 > > I think for most typical resistors you'd put in the housing, the appropriate > pin is the one for 24awg. I already have a few spare connectors that were > cut from cables, so I plan to just get new pins for those. I'll crimp the > new pins on a resistor, pull all the old pins & wires and I should be good > to go. If I need more then I'll buy a few of the housings too. My experience of similar connecotrs is that if you don't have the right crimping tool and die, it's best to crimp the contacts as best you can with needle-nose pliers and then solder them. At which point it doesn't really matter waht size wire the pin is designed for. Of course id you do have the right tool, you should get the pins for the size of resistor lead you're using. We've had the discussion of reliabiliy of crimp .vs. solder connections before. I am sure a properly-done crimp (right tool and die, right size pin for the wire) is more reliable than a soldered connection. But a badly done crimp is a lot less reliable than a soldered connection, so, not being able to adfford all the crimp tools and dies I'd need for all the connecotrs I work with, for stuff I'm using myself I just solder them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 16:51:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:51:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45DEA7EA.A135CEE8@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 23, 7 00:38:12 am Message-ID: > > I assume this plotter ahs a 'listen only' mode, where it's selected at > > power-on and doesn't need ot be addressed. Many HP plotters do. > > > > Of course you lose some functionality if you do that. Most HP plotters > > are HPIB talkers too, they can report the current plot size and pen > > position -- you could move the pen around with the buttons on the plotter > > and use the machine as a primitive digitiser (put a trace from some other > > instrument on the plotter bed, then move the carriage to points on that > > trace and read them into the computer). You might well not need this though. > > The 9815 interface supports the digitising functions regardless of the > (non-)addressability issue, so that functionality is not lost. (My unit > even came with the digitising sight.) You _will_ lose the digitising functionality if you use the HPIB connector and set the machien to 'listen only' (if you can do that, most HP HPIB plotters do have that feature). In that mode there is no way the plotter can output data. > > >From the schematics, the 9815 interface asserts a signal on the special > connector on the plotter, said signal ends up on the plotter microprocessor bus, > so the plotter microproc is distinguishing 9815 vs HPIB and acting appropriately. > I don't know the 9872 that well. I have soem experience of the internals of the 7245, which from what I've seen has somewhat similar electronics (the motor driver interpolator is almost identical circuitry, for exampl). Now on the 7245 the HPIB interface is very hardware-intensive -- even the HPIB bus commands (serial poll enable/disable, etc) are decoded in hardwre. Of course the handshanke and addressing are handles in hardware too. All the processor does is get a signal that says 'read a byte from the HPIB data register' and the processor does so (and interpets the bytes read as HPGL commands, of course). If the 9872 is like that, it should be very easily possible to work out what the 9815 interface is doing, since presumanbly it's also mostly handled in hardware, possbily even much the same hardware. From what you've said, it must be more than just a listen-only (unaddressable) HPIB interface, since the plotter can send data back to the 9815 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 17:02:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:02:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: CBM-to-IEEE cable In-Reply-To: <200702231615.l1NGFvIO003160@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Feb 23, 7 11:15:57 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I'm in need of a PET-style IEEE cable to connect an 8032 to its > peripherals. Anyone have one they're willing to part with? > > This is the kind with the card edge connector on one end, and the > more traditional centronics-style IEEE connector on the other. When I needed one of these for my P500, I ended up making a little adapter with an edge conenctor on one end (it's 0.156" spacing, I think Digitkey sell them) and a 24 pin microribbon connector on the other. The most difficult part was getting the jackposts to take the locking screws of the normal IEEE-488 cables, they seem to be unobtainable in the UK. I had to make those too... -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 23 17:30:27 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:30:27 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni In-Reply-To: <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net> References: <1677927075@web.de> <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45DF7913.9080801@shiresoft.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 ebubekr at web.de wrote: > >> hi guys, >> I am searching after a old (very old) harddisk drive and want to ask do >> you have any? or any ideas where can I get that? >> > > Your first step should be to state what you want. > > Different people have different meanings for "old (very old)". > To some people, that means an IDE drive that is less than 1GB. > To some people, that means any MFM drive, such as ST4096. > To some people, that means any winchester with 8" platters To some people, that means any winchester with 14" platters To some people, that means a removable pack drive with 14" platters > To some people, that means 24 inch platters. > > > [ Sorry, I just couldn't resist filling in *some* of the gaps between MFM and RAMDAC :-) ] -- TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 23 17:51:28 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702231222j5fc820c4l3f34391b0f602d05@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> <5dc6fd9e0702231221g384d82a2kf1915644a92b7140@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702231222j5fc820c4l3f34391b0f602d05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070223154341.A59387@shell.lmi.net> > > > So clearly the proper way to preserve our antique data is to use > > > steganography to embed it inside of pictures that people will > > > want to keep for generations, collected and redistributed in a > > > redundant fashion all around the world. > > > Why, the Internet is halfway there already. NOT pictures that people "will WANT to keep", just stuff that won't go away. Snopes.com may ultimately be the primary depository of the world's knowledge. > > storage either (rats!) ;-) :-p howzbout: steganography in the DNA of rats? On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Hex Star wrote: > perhaps the best means of storage after all these years in regards to > longativity was those punch cards? :P wonder what a 1GB punchcard would look > like... It looks like a room full of file cabinets. (about 10,000 boxes) (about 35 years ago, National Space Sciences Data Center at Goddard SFC) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 18:05:50 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:05:50 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: References: <45DED19E.21663.2F30FC95@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 7 11:35:58 am, Message-ID: <45DF10DE.17768.30280CFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 23:11, Tony Duell wrote: > _BUT_ I don't know what alloy the brass is, but it doesn't machine as > well as the 'CZ121' brass. Not a problem unless you intend to stick it on > the lathe. I'm pretty certain that it's plain old C260 cartridge brass. It will chatter and chip like crazy if you try machining it using a carbide cutter. FWIW, around here, the K&S is the easiest to obtain thinwall tube (0.014' wall). I've made French horn crooks from it and it cold-works very nicely. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 23 18:09:29 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:09:29 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702231219o1ac16012y7021b56779990c92@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <45DF4B00.8050508@yahoo.co.uk> <5dc6fd9e0702231219o1ac16012y7021b56779990c92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45DF8239.9090908@oldskool.org> Hex Star wrote: > Do those mass manufactured cds last longer then cd-rs? How long do those > last? Why can't we create cds like those? (How do they do it?) They typically do (I have a 20-yr-old CD that has no errors) but they are created through manufacturing, not simple burning with a laser. So unless you want to purchase $200K worth of equipment, stick with CDRs :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 18:13:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:13:39 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni In-Reply-To: <45DF7913.9080801@shiresoft.com> References: <1677927075@web.de>, <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net>, <45DF7913.9080801@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 15:30, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > To some people, that means a removable pack drive with 14" platters > > To some people, that means 24 inch platters. > > > > > > > [ Sorry, I just couldn't resist filling in *some* of the gaps between > MFM and RAMDAC :-) ] Don't you mean RAMAC? ...and to some people a hard disk means a recording medium that uses shellac as a binder... Cheers, Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 23 18:52:14 2007 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:52:14 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni In-Reply-To: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1677927075@web.de>, <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net>, <45DF7913.9080801@shiresoft.com> <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DF8C3E.6010807@shiresoft.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Feb 2007 at 15:30, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > >> To some people, that means a removable pack drive with 14" platters >> >>> To some people, that means 24 inch platters. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> [ Sorry, I just couldn't resist filling in *some* of the gaps between >> MFM and RAMDAC :-) ] >> > > Don't you mean RAMAC? > Ouch! yes. > ...and to some people a hard disk means a recording medium that uses > shellac as a binder... > :-) -- TTFN - Guy From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 18:53:59 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:53:59 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? In-Reply-To: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702231653gb02e408vdb28c9f0e7d633f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > > I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if > > > > sale the magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives? > > > > > > no > > > > Hear hear!! > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > -- html links to eBay auctions clipped. > > "magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives" aren't what you'll find > in commodity discs today. I assume he's asking about linear motors > from large drives, circa '85 and earlier, which have mostly gone into > landfills. > > A linear motor from an early 80's drive is on the order of 4" x 8" with > a pretty massive casting. > > > right and those search results were within ebay's vintage computing area ;-) :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 23 19:11:58 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:11:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to In-Reply-To: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 2007 04:13:39 PM Message-ID: <200702240111.l1O1Bwut010988@onyx.spiritone.com> > ...and to some people a hard disk means a recording medium that uses > shellac as a binder... > > Cheers, > Chuck Those sound suspiciously like the "hard disks" I'm interested in these days, and they spin at a nice fast 78rpm. Zane From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 19:18:15 2007 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:18:15 -0600 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to In-Reply-To: <200702240111.l1O1Bwut010988@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> <200702240111.l1O1Bwut010988@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920702231718w6fd5f786t39b1ac5a7306c0d8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Those sound suspiciously like the "hard disks" I'm interested in these days, > and they spin at a nice fast 78rpm. > > Zane > Definitely sounds like a case where spinning them too fast, or in Texas heat, would make them 'floppy disks', and very unreliable after that. ;-) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 23 19:20:28 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:20:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT - cool space photo available Message-ID: <773270.34083.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> If anyone is interested, I have a photo someone sent me of this: "...a time lapse photo of the ROPA (40.020) launch where you can see the aurora in the background and all four stages." Still haven't set up the ol' website, so I can't simply post it there. If anyone would like me to forward it to them, ping me. Really groovy stuph. The wonderful human being who sent it to me was actually involved in the launch, in some capacity. I might not be forwarding it out until the next time I'm online. Prolly Monday or Tuesday. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 23 19:21:38 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:21:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? In-Reply-To: <45DF0F7D.1080206@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 23, 2007 07:59:57 AM Message-ID: <200702240121.l1O1Lcef011190@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > I have see some disk drives on your homepage and want to ask you if > > sale the magnetic and coils from the old diskdrives? > > no > > --al (who is trying to find a working CDC 9766 right now) The disturbing thing is I recently ran across someone who was looking for large quantities of old floppy drives, as he was pulling the motors from them. Zane From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 19:23:35 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:23:35 +1100 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> <5dc6fd9e0702231653gb02e408vdb28c9f0e7d633f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> Hoping someone may be able to help - I've rebuilt an old Commodore PC 5 (XT compatible) back to working condition. Now the problem is getting anything on to the machine. None of my current machines are capable of supporting a 5.25" drive (of any flavour) so I can't easily transfer using that method. However, I have installed DOs 4.01 to the C= & it includes GW Basic & I have linked up that machine & tyhe XP box via a null modem cable. So, all I need is a simple terminal program on the XT & I'm pretty much in business. Problem is, all the GW Basic sources I've found for term progs are simply for text-based terms only, there are none around with simple transfer abilities (ie XModem or Kermit). Anyone have sourec available for a simple term program that'll at least gbet me started by allowing me to transfer over smething better ? Or any other suggestion ? cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 23 19:45:55 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:45:55 -0500 Subject: KDJ11-SD Boot ROMs In-Reply-To: Message from "Glen Slick" of "Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:53:26 PST." <1e1fc3e90702230953v58fd8bf5yd1dc418e35be377c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702240145.l1O1jtlw020244@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Glen Slick" wrote: >On 2/23/07, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Does anyone have a checksum for the PDP-11/53 ROMs? I'm converting >> an M7554-SD. The ROMs from M7554-04, I think, are the ones I need. >> According to Jonathan Engdahl's page, they are 261E5.hex and 262E5.hex. >> > >You can try the straight .BIN files instead of .HEX files. > >http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/23-261E5.bin >http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/23-262E5.bin I used those images and they worked fine. My work directory looks like this: -rw-rw-r-- 1 brad brad 16384 Jul 14 2005 23-261E5.bin -rw-rw-r-- 1 brad brad 32768 Jul 21 2005 23-261E5-doubled.bin -rw-rw-r-- 1 brad brad 16384 Jul 14 2005 23-262E5.bin -rw-rw-r-- 1 brad brad 32768 Jul 21 2005 23-262E5-doubled.bin I'm not sure what the "doubled" files are however. Maybe I used a 27256 instead of a 27128. I think that's the case. linux cksum says: 3162496093 16384 23-261E5.bin 1853346231 16384 23-262E5.bin 3422894537 32768 23-261E5-doubled.bin 961258351 32768 23-262E5-doubled.bin -brad From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 23 19:50:35 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:50:35 -0700 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:23:35 +1100. <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: In article <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a at pentium>, "Lance Lyon" writes: > Or any other suggestion ? You could try and find something really small here: Look for a small .COM utility that just barely transfers files. Dump it out in hex. Type it in via the debug command as raw memory :-( Save it to a file from debug. Run it to bootstrap yourself into a reall comm program. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 23 19:52:26 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:52:26 -0500 Subject: Off-topic but still *not* funny. In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702231230q38dbc2ddo3412228ad69c0dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702240152.l1O1qW5l033543@keith.ezwind.net> >How is that funny? What a waste of bandwidth... Ignoreing content, this was not a great wast of bandwidth. The message that started this was only 120 bytes of text encased in a 3.7k email, including headers, by the time it got to me. From my viewpoint at least it had a tinyurl and not a 3 line url, and was easily ignored. Not including this minor rant, there have been no less than 5 messages about the OT content of those 130 charettors totaling close to 19.5k of email. To put this back on topic, these messages including headers representing more total storage than was available on my first two computers (the first one SDK80 only had 2k) and my second an EVK300 only had 16k. What we are talking about here is equal to about 1 second of a single stream of talk radio on my audio server. Now if you want to talk about a huge waste of bandwidth .... So much in life needs to be ignored, why not start here ? Vote with your delete key not reply all. Sorry Jay, Just venting .... Back under my rock The other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 23 20:09:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:09:22 -0500 Subject: KDJ11-SD Boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <45DF0E60.2010706@mdrconsult.com> References: <45DF0E60.2010706@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5AA7CA0B-C234-410F-A645-07DC56CDD6DD@neurotica.com> On Feb 23, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Does anyone have a checksum for the PDP-11/53 ROMs? I'm > converting an M7554-SD. The ROMs from M7554-04, I think, are the > ones I need. According to Jonathan Engdahl's page, they are > 261E5.hex and 262E5.hex. > > I have a set of images already, and have one system running with > them, but my EPROM-burner-guy is having trouble with 262E5.hex. I > want to make sure I have a good image before I tell him to try > harder. :) I can generate the checksums for you...I just found the box with my KDJ11-SD in it. What checksum algorithm? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 20:10:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:10:22 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: <45DF2E0E.11484.309A0C98@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2007 at 12:23, Lance Lyon wrote: > Hoping someone may be able to help - I've rebuilt an old Commodore PC 5 (XT > compatible) back to working condition. Now the problem is getting anything > on to the machine. None of my current machines are capable of supporting a > 5.25" drive (of any flavour) so I can't easily transfer using that method. > Or any other suggestion ? Why not simply hook up a 3.5" drive (DSHD is fine)? Get a DS2D diskette by covering over the density aperture in a DSHD diskette and format it up to 720K on your modern PeeCee using "format a: /n:9 /t:80". Write whatever you want to it and let the Commo read it. PeeCees don't really care (for anything but formatting) if you've got a 720K or 360K. Alternatively, hook up a 360K 5.25" to your modern PeeCee and call it a 1.44MB drive--format the blanks in your PC5 and your modern PC will write them just fine. I've done both routinely. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Feb 23 20:04:39 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:04:39 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 67 Message-ID: <01C7578E.5C9E4FC0@mse-d03> ---------------Original Message: From: "Joachim Thiemann" Subject: Re: Wanted: CBM-to-IEEE cable On 23/02/07, M H Stein wrote: > --------------------- > Not mine, and not cheap, but if you're desperate enough: > > www.jppbm.com > > mike Is that guy still around? I tried sending an email - I want to buy one of the 1581 kits - but didn't get a reply... Supposedly, he was at World of Commodore in december. Joe. -----------------Reply: Yes; as a matter of fact I was just talking with him at a meeting a week ago (and he does still have 1581 kits). mike From evan at snarc.net Fri Feb 23 20:48:29 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:48:29 -0500 Subject: LOL -- classiccmp in AARP magazine Message-ID: <000001c757be$4509ee70$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> My father just showed me a recent issue of the AARP magazine. On page 19 there's a small blurb about computer collecting. It's WAY off-base. Says that computers of the 80s and 90s are collectible (great, so now every old-time with a late-90s PC will come forward), and -- better yet -- it claims that an Apple IIe recently sold for $6,100. LOL, we're all rich! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 23 20:58:44 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:58:44 -0600 Subject: OT - cool space photo available References: <773270.34083.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c757bf$b2632300$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> *sigh* From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 21:06:37 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:06:37 +1100 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <45DF2E0E.11484.309A0C98@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> Hiya Chuck, From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Restoring an XT - transfer problem > Why not simply hook up a 3.5" drive (DSHD is fine)? Get a DS2D > diskette by covering over the density aperture in a DSHD diskette and > format it up to 720K on your modern PeeCee using "format a: /n:9 > /t:80". Write whatever you want to it and let the Commo read it. > The PC5 will not recognise a 3.5" disk, even using driver.sys to set the parameters it always gives a "device not ready" error. > Alternatively, hook up a 360K 5.25" to your modern PeeCee and call it > a 1.44MB drive--format the blanks in your PC5 and your modern PC will > write them just fine. No go, 3 different machines, 5 different drives - all the same error - "Sector not found". cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 23 21:07:36 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:07:36 -0600 Subject: OT - cool space photo available In-Reply-To: <00aa01c757bf$b2632300$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <773270.34083.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <00aa01c757bf$b2632300$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45DFABF8.8050806@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > *sigh* Now, Jay. This list avoided September Syndrome for a long, long time. It hadda happen sooner or later. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 23 21:25:44 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:25:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <45DF2E0E.11484.309A0C98@cclist.sydex.com> <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: <20070223192225.Q71680@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Lance Lyon wrote: > > Why not simply hook up a 3.5" drive (DSHD is fine)? Get a DS2D > > diskette by covering over the density aperture in a DSHD diskette and > > format it up to 720K on your modern PeeCee using "format a: /n:9 > > /t:80". Write whatever you want to it and let the Commo read it. > The PC5 will not recognise a 3.5" disk, even using driver.sys to set the > parameters it always gives a "device > not ready" error. Try masking off pin 34. > > Alternatively, hook up a 360K 5.25" to your modern PeeCee and call it > > a 1.44MB drive--format the blanks in your PC5 and your modern PC will > > write them just fine. > No go, 3 different machines, 5 different drives - all the same error - > "Sector not found". "sector not found" is usually an error with a diskette. not handling that disk format would usually give you, "general failure" (wrong density) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 23 21:34:52 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:34:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> > Or any other suggestion ? didn't 4.0x include something called "interlink"? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Feb 23 21:42:09 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:42:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where there's smoke there's... a hard disk!?! Message-ID: <988147.96099.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> Recently, an accquaintaince was cleaning up his house and came upon some old hardware, and asked - do I want some old hard disks? Sure! He gave me a pair of old Avid external 9 gig hard drives. Basically just 9 gig 5 1/4" FH Micropolis 50 pin SCSI drives in little-ish external boxes. Perfect for some of these old boxen I run around here. Anyway, I decided to hook them up tonight. I cabled them up to an old PC, powered everything on, and the SCSI card saw both disks. I left the machine run while I went in the next room to burn a Debian netinst CD. Five minutes later... what's that smell? I went in the next room, now slightly hazy and full of that acrid 'burnt electronics' smell. I hit the switch on the power strip and started smelling things looking for the source. Old 14" DigiView monitor? - no... Old Compaq desktop PC? - no... Avid external 9 gig SCSI hard drive? - .. yes . I took the drive apart, expecting to find a burnt up tantalum cap in the power supply or something - nothing. Then I took the drive out (not easy, the standoffs seem to like to stay with the screws rather than the drive..), and flipped it over. There was a burnt mark on the board the size of a nickel, and the board had started to delaminate. In the center, a charred husk of a something that resembled a surface mount capacitor of some sort, a small rectangular component about the size of a standard jumper laying flat. Hmm, I haven't got anything to lose at this point, so I picked the burnt thing off the board, it had already unsoldered one side of itself, so I wiggled the other side off, and removed the surrounding debris. Morbid curiosity made me hook the drive back up. Hmm, it spins... it comes ready... I hooked it back up to the computer, and turned the computer on, and lo and behold, the SCSI controller sees the drive! I am currently running the Adaptec SCSI controller's media test function on the drive now, as I ponder why the Linux installer insists on crashing on this particular box, but I really wonder a couple things - what caused that capacitor to burn, why does the disk still work, and how long will it continue to work? I imagine that the capacitor wasn't particularly important, seeming as though the drive still runs, but what baffles me is that even with sizeable damage to the board, (it's bubbled up and delaminated in that spot) the drive works. The capacitor was near three voltage regulator type transistors on the board, so it could have been a bypass type capacitor, and not crucial to the circuit, but that doesn't explain why it caught fire. Computers never cease to amaze me. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 23 21:42:04 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:42:04 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: >From: "Jay West" > >Glen wrote... >>Thanks Jay. I had given up trying to find the right connectors new. >>Mouser lists part 1-640511-0 as No Stock, but Digi-Key lists them in >>stock $1.11 > >I think for most typical resistors you'd put in the housing, the >appropriate pin is the one for 24awg. I already have a few spare connectors >that were cut from cables, so I plan to just get new pins for those. I'll >crimp the new pins on a resistor, pull all the old pins & wires and I >should be good to go. If I need more then I'll buy a few of the housings >too. > >There is one possible discrepancy I just noticed on the old vs. new >connectors. On the locking tabs the old style connector has a small >rectangular hole to allow the mating connector tab to lock in. On the new >connector locking tabs there is instead a hook formed on the end with no >hole. Visually it appears that the new connector would work with the old >style socket as far as the lock tabs go, but I can't be completely certain. >Worst case the locking function may not work, we'll see. > >If working with an old connector, the pins are fairly difficult to get out. >There is a tool to do it, AMP part 455822-2. Mouser lists it as $22 but >cms-tools.com lists it at $14. On most RS232 pins you can push them out the >back with needlenose pliers if you're careful instead of using a tool. That >approach doesn't work on the MR connectors, so may have to get the tool. >I'm experimenting with a RS232 pin tool to see if it will depress the MR >connector pin locks correctly. > >Jay Hi Why not solder the resistor inside the computer, on the PC board. I didn't do this on my machine but it wouldn't be that big an issue if it was done. Just put some tape over the connector with a warning note to anyone that wants to connect a real battery up. I got a molex connector that had the right pin pattern but needed some trimming of the plastic to fit. I got it at a local surplus shop so don't have a number for it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft? Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 23 22:12:11 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:12:11 -0800 Subject: Where there's smoke there's... a hard disk!?! In-Reply-To: <988147.96099.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Mr Ian Primus ---snip--- > >I imagine that the capacitor wasn't particularly >important, seeming as though the drive still runs, but >what baffles me is that even with sizeable damage to >the board, (it's bubbled up and delaminated in that >spot) the drive works. The capacitor was near three >voltage regulator type transistors on the board, so it >could have been a bypass type capacitor, and not >crucial to the circuit, but that doesn't explain why >it caught fire. > >Computers never cease to amaze me. > >-Ian Hi Ian That was a surface mount tantalum. The go up the same way the tear drop ones do. They tend to do more damage because they are surface mount. If you are concerned, the value is most likely in the order of 10uf. It is surely a bypass cap. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.? http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 23 22:26:48 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:26:48 -0600 Subject: KDJ11-SD Boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <5AA7CA0B-C234-410F-A645-07DC56CDD6DD@neurotica.com> References: <45DF0E60.2010706@mdrconsult.com> <5AA7CA0B-C234-410F-A645-07DC56CDD6DD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45DFBE88.2030403@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 23, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Does anyone have a checksum for the PDP-11/53 ROMs? I'm converting >> an M7554-SD. The ROMs from M7554-04, I think, are the ones I need. >> According to Jonathan Engdahl's page, they are 261E5.hex and 262E5.hex. >> >> I have a set of images already, and have one system running with >> them, but my EPROM-burner-guy is having trouble with 262E5.hex. I >> want to make sure I have a good image before I tell him to try >> harder. :) > > I can generate the checksums for you...I just found the box with my > KDJ11-SD in it. What checksum algorithm? Got 'em, thanks! Thanks everybody who chimed in, too. Doc From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Feb 23 22:30:02 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:30:02 -0600 Subject: Long-term storage (Was: Re: Google on hard drive failures) In-Reply-To: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 15:35 -0600 2/23/07, der Mouse wrote: >Certainly. And forget centrues; try millennia. The Pyramids. The >Sphinx. Stonehenge. The French cave paintings. Old Greek and Roman >coins from archaeological digs. At 21:11 -0600 2/23/07, Chuck wrote: >Heck, we've "manufactured" artifacts that will last for a hundred >thousand years or more. Just google "Yucca Mountain". Pikers. Try the Voyager record. *That* puppy is going to be around (somewhere) for some serious millenia. Or the CD taped to the New Horizons Spacecraft, seen below in on-topic format :-). Data retrieval, however, will not be easy. -- ______ Mark Tapley ------ Third Planet || SWAP 210-379-4635 Cellphone ---- _|__|______ __..---..__ | | \ _`-' ``-. HGA(REX) PEPPSI | ---- _' `-_ `-. | .' `-_ `. .-| , `-_ `. LORRI : | . `-_ `. : | / SDC `-_ \ '-|. below `-_ . _______ _______ |' .-*-. `-_ ||+|+|+|+| |+|+|+|+| | / \ `|--`-------------------| | ! o-----> +X | | | | \ | / _,|--.-------------------| |. "-|-" _,- ||+|+|+|+| |+|+|+|+| |' | _,- ' ------- ------- | ' V _,- / RTG (Radioisotope | ` +Z _,- . Thermoelectric | ` _,- - Generator) | `. _,- .' | '. _,- _.-' artwork: Lillian |__________',-__ __,,,'' Nguyen | | '' --- '' | | `-----' PERSI (Alice above, Ralph below) From hexstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 22:39:52 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:39:52 -0800 Subject: Off-topic but still *not* funny. In-Reply-To: <200702240152.l1O1qW5l033543@keith.ezwind.net> References: <5dc6fd9e0702231230q38dbc2ddo3412228ad69c0dd6@mail.gmail.com> <200702240152.l1O1qW5l033543@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702232039l271e10c4rb858724cbe12c21d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/07, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > >How is that funny? What a waste of bandwidth... > > Ignoreing content, this was not a great wast of bandwidth. > > The message that started this was only 120 bytes of text encased in a 3.7kemail, including headers, by the time > it got to me. From my viewpoint at least it had a tinyurl and not a 3 line > url, and was easily ignored. > > Not including this minor rant, there have been no less than 5 messages > about the OT content of those 130 > charettors totaling close to 19.5k of email. > To put this back on topic, these messages including headers representing > more total storage than was available > on my first two computers (the first one SDK80 only had 2k) and my second > an EVK300 only had 16k. What we > are talking about here is equal to about 1 second of a single stream of > talk radio on my audio server. Now if you > want to talk about a huge waste of bandwidth .... > > So much in life needs to be ignored, why not start here ? > > Vote with your delete key not reply all. > Sorry Jay, Just venting .... Back under my rock > The other Bob > > > > > ... http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3607/bandwidthhoglw9.jpg From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Feb 23 22:51:00 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:51:00 -0500 Subject: Where there's smoke there's... a hard disk!?! In-Reply-To: <988147.96099.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> References: <988147.96099.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45DFC434.9020907@hawkmountain.net> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Recently, an accquaintaince was cleaning up his house > and came upon some old hardware, and asked - do I want > some old hard disks? Sure! He gave me a pair of old > Avid external 9 gig hard drives. Basically just 9 gig > 5 1/4" FH Micropolis 50 pin SCSI drives in little-ish > external boxes. Perfect for some of these old boxen I > run around here. Anyway, I decided to hook them up > tonight. I cabled them up to an old PC, powered > everything on, and the SCSI card saw both disks. I > left the machine run while I went in the next room to > burn a Debian netinst CD. Five minutes later... what's > that smell? I went in the next room, now slightly hazy > and full of that acrid 'burnt electronics' smell. I > hit the switch on the power strip and started smelling > things looking for the source. Old 14" DigiView > monitor? - no... Old Compaq desktop PC? - no... Avid > external 9 gig SCSI hard drive? - .. yes > . > > ... > > Computers never cease to amaze me. > > -Ian > If these are indeed 9G 5.25" FH Micropolis drives... run, run very fast and far away from them.... (or better yet, throw them as far as you can.... if possible... farther)... you will regret it otherwise. I've only had experience with one of those drives... that was enough... and I've never touched another after I heard all the horror stories. The fact you have one or more that even seem to work is a miracle (but your luck will run out). It is too bad too... I liked Micropolis till that point. I especially liked the old 5.25" FH 600M SCSI 'bricks'. They are reliable. I've had a couple of 2G and 4G SCSI 3.5" Micropolis drives... I have put much time on them... but they seem to work OK. (I think the 4G is a Tomahawk... but I seem to recall hearing bad stories about some (if not all) of those too). My all time favorite for drives in the 9G and up catagory (in 3.5 inch form factor) is quantum.... I've had a lot of those... and I've only eve had one failure. And I probably accidentally zapped it with static.... Now everything is pretty much Seagate, Western Digital, and Hitachi.... I pretty much go with Seagate now. -- Curt From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Feb 23 23:15:33 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:15:33 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem Message-ID: <01C757A8.E8466C00@mse-d03> ---------------Original Message: From: "Lance Lyon" Subject: Re: Restoring an XT - transfer problem To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a at pentium> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hiya Chuck, From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Restoring an XT - transfer problem > Why not simply hook up a 3.5" drive (DSHD is fine)? Get a DS2D > diskette by covering over the density aperture in a DSHD diskette and > format it up to 720K on your modern PeeCee using "format a: /n:9 > /t:80". Write whatever you want to it and let the Commo read it. > The PC5 will not recognise a 3.5" disk, even using driver.sys to set the parameters it always gives a "device not ready" error. > Alternatively, hook up a 360K 5.25" to your modern PeeCee and call it > a 1.44MB drive--format the blanks in your PC5 and your modern PC will > write them just fine. No go, 3 different machines, 5 different drives - all the same error - "Sector not found". cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // ---------------Reply: Grab a free copy of the old DOS LapLink 3 or 4 off the 'Web; that oughta do the trick. mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 23:27:23 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:27:23 -0800 Subject: Long-term storage (Was: Re: Google on hard drive failures) In-Reply-To: References: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <45DF5C3B.19057.314E6A23@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 22:30, Mark Tapley wrote: > Try the Voyager record. *That* puppy is going to be around > (somewhere) for some serious millenia. Or the CD taped to the New > Horizons Spacecraft, seen below in on-topic format :-). I wonder how much damage micrometeorites will do after a few millenia? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 23:29:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:29:15 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45DF5CAB.10187.3150224D@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 19:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Or any other suggestion ? > > didn't 4.0x include something called "interlink"? I'll check--if so, a laplink parallel cable will work for parallel-to- parallel port transfers. I always thought that interlink was a blatant ripoff of laplink. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 23 23:37:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:37:56 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: <45DF5EB4.2720.315812D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2007 at 14:06, Lance Lyon wrote: > The PC5 will not recognise a 3.5" disk, even using driver.sys to set the > parameters it always gives a "device not ready" error. What Fred said about pin 34. Also, make sure that the 3.5 is jumpered right--I don't know how closely the Commodore followed standard PC conventions. > > Alternatively, hook up a 360K 5.25" to your modern PeeCee and call it > > a 1.44MB drive--format the blanks in your PC5 and your modern PC will > > write them just fine. > > No go, 3 different machines, 5 different drives - all the same error - > "Sector not found". Should work unless you're doing something funny. 3.5" DS2D diskettes (not DSHD) share the same data rate as 360Ks. Only the number of cylinders differs--oh, and the 5.25" 360K drive won't do high- density. The only other reason that I can think of getting a SNF error is that you're using a really really old 5.25" drive that can't step at a 4 msec rate. Cheers, Chuck From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Feb 23 23:51:37 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:51:37 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> (Fred Cisin's message of "Fri\, 23 Feb 2007 19\:34\:52 -0800 \(PST\)") References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > didn't 4.0x include something called "interlink"? I am thinking interlnk/intersvr didn't turn up 'til MS-DOS 6.0. I used to use them to back up my HP100LX (with the 100LX running INTERSVR.EXE under its in-ROM MS-DOS 5.0), and I'm thinking they weren't available 'til I upgraded the desktop PC from MS-DOS 5.0 to MS-DOS 6. -Frank McConnell From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 00:14:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DF5EB4.2720.315812D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> <45DF5EB4.2720.315812D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070223221239.H76442@shell.lmi.net> > > The PC5 will not recognise a 3.5" disk, even using driver.sys to set the > > parameters it always gives a "device not ready" error. > What Fred said about pin 34. Also, make sure that the 3.5 is > jumpered right--I don't know how closely the Commodore followed > standard PC conventions. if the LED on the drive lights, try masking off pin 34 (Disk Change/Ready) if the LED does not light, drive select jumpers and/or cable From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 00:15:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:15:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: > I am thinking interlnk/intersvr didn't turn up 'til MS-DOS 6.0. I > used to use them to back up my HP100LX (with the 100LX running > INTERSVR.EXE under its in-ROM MS-DOS 5.0), and I'm thinking they > weren't available 'til I upgraded the desktop PC from MS-DOS 5.0 to > MS-DOS 6. Was the RCV35 (or whatever it was called) from PC-DOS 3.30 present in MS-DOS? (used for transferring files from 5.25" PCs to 3.5" PS/2s) From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 24 01:14:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:14:23 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> <5dc6fd9e0702231653gb02e408vdb28c9f0e7d633f@mail.gmail.com> <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: <45DFE5CF.2050702@oldskool.org> Lance Lyon wrote: > Anyone have sourec available for a simple term program that'll at least > gbet me started by allowing me to transfer over smething better ? PC-Talk, the great original. Hopefully it's GWBASIC compatible, and supports x-modem so you can get something more decent over the line (my first suggestion is zmodem). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 24 01:16:10 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:16:10 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070223192225.Q71680@shell.lmi.net> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <45DF2E0E.11484.309A0C98@cclist.sydex.com> <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> <20070223192225.Q71680@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> Why not simply hook up a 3.5" drive (DSHD is fine)? Get a DS2D >>> diskette by covering over the density aperture in a DSHD diskette and >>> format it up to 720K on your modern PeeCee using "format a: /n:9 >>> /t:80". Write whatever you want to it and let the Commo read it. >> The PC5 will not recognise a 3.5" disk, even using driver.sys to set the >> parameters it always gives a "device >> not ready" error. > > Try masking off pin 34. Why would that make a difference, if Chuck does the former routinely? What does pin 34 do? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 24 01:17:14 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:17:14 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45DFE67A.6080609@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: >> I am thinking interlnk/intersvr didn't turn up 'til MS-DOS 6.0. I >> used to use them to back up my HP100LX (with the 100LX running >> INTERSVR.EXE under its in-ROM MS-DOS 5.0), and I'm thinking they >> weren't available 'til I upgraded the desktop PC from MS-DOS 5.0 to >> MS-DOS 6. > > Was the RCV35 (or whatever it was called) from PC-DOS 3.30 present in > MS-DOS? (used for transferring files from 5.25" PCs to 3.5" PS/2s) I have never heard of that at all -- What was the exact name, and why was it necessary? I have PC DOS 3.3 here but I don't see anything like what you're describing... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 24 01:18:07 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:18:07 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <45DFE6AF.3020903@oldskool.org> Frank McConnell wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> didn't 4.0x include something called "interlink"? > > I am thinking interlnk/intersvr didn't turn up 'til MS-DOS 6.0. I I could've sworn it was 5.0 actually. interlnk/intersvr were the final form of FastLynx, which I still use occaisionally to this day to get stuff between machines. Still have the "high-speed" parallel cable too :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 24 01:19:23 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:19:23 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DF5CAB.10187.3150224D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <45DF5CAB.10187.3150224D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45DFE6FB.7080904@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I always thought that interlink was a blatant ripoff of laplink. It was (FastLynx) but, having used both, the full-blown FastLynx (with an interface and more options) was a much better program. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 24 01:48:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:48:45 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <20070223192225.Q71680@shell.lmi.net>, <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45DF7D5D.7437.31CFD8F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2007 at 1:16, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Try masking off pin 34. > > Why would that make a difference, if Chuck does the former routinely? > What does pin 34 do? It's disk change--but the PC5 should be blind to it. Another possibility is that the PC5 might require a READY\ signal, which was supplied on the same pin. I'm just not familiar with the ins and outs of the PC5. Regardless, there's no difference between recording on 720K and a 5.25".360K. I'd inspect jumpers first, then see if pin 34 on the cable goes anywhere. Cheers, Chuck From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Feb 24 02:27:24 2007 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:27:24 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> (Fred Cisin's message of "Fri\, 23 Feb 2007 22\:15\:54 -0800 \(PST\)") References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200702240827.l1O8RO1D005603@lots.reanimators.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: >> I am thinking interlnk/intersvr didn't turn up 'til MS-DOS 6.0. I >> used to use them to back up my HP100LX (with the 100LX running > > Was the RCV35 (or whatever it was called) from PC-DOS 3.30 present in > MS-DOS? (used for transferring files from 5.25" PCs to 3.5" PS/2s) Not that I recall. And thinking about it some more, I may have this cross-threaded with when CONFIG.SYS menus turned up, because that was a part of the process too (plug in the 100LX running INTERSVR and reboot the PC to select the startup that loads INTERLNK). -Frank McConnell From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sat Feb 24 03:05:45 2007 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 04:05:45 -0500 Subject: Old Atari Video Pinball machine (c) 1977 (OT?) In-Reply-To: <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: For those who collect Console Games, I came across this which may be of interest. It is supposedly NIB. http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewitem.asp?ItemID=2540866 Hope this helps someone out. Greg From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 24 03:33:38 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:33:38 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: Message-ID: <45E00674.3783E6FE@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > You _will_ lose the digitising functionality if you use the HPIB > connector and set the machien to 'listen only' (if you can do that, most > HP HPIB plotters do have that feature). In that mode there is no way the > plotter can output data. Of no relevance to me. > If the 9872 is like that, it should be very easily possible to work out > what the 9815 interface is doing, since presumanbly it's also mostly I had no qualms or questions about what it is doing, it appears quite straightforward. > handled in hardware, possbily even much the same hardware. From what > you've said, it must be more than just a listen-only (unaddressable) HPIB > interface, since the plotter can send data back to the 9815 Try re-reading my previous replies. You're making it more complex than it is. The 9815 interface connection consists merely of: - the 8 HPIB data lines (bidirectional) - the 3 HPIB handshake lines (bidirectional) - a reset/device-clear line - a static 9815-mode assertion line - common In other words: un-addressed talk/listen HPIB-style data transfer. From info at harrells.net Fri Feb 23 17:53:20 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:53:20 -0500 Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45DF7E70.2040707@harrells.net> Does anyone have the jumper settings for the Teac 55 disk drive? I'm trying to one working on a old CP/M machine with a Shugart 5 1/4 interface. It allows me to format the disk but won't read the disk back. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Feb 23 21:53:49 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 22:53:49 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem Message-ID: <0JDY00FNJ856VKBB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Restoring an XT - transfer problem > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:34:52 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Or any other suggestion ? > >didn't 4.0x include something called "interlink"? > Not sure of 4.0 but 5.0 and 6.X included it. Allison From mike at ambientdesign.com Fri Feb 23 23:30:19 2007 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:30:19 +1300 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org><5dc6fd9e0702231653gb02e408vdb28c9f0e7d633f@mail.gmail.com> <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: <00c201c757d4$df79e760$0132a8c0@fluke> > Hoping someone may be able to help - I've rebuilt an old Commodore PC 5 (XT > compatible) back to working condition. Now the problem is getting anything > on to the machine. None of my current machines are capable of supporting a > 5.25" drive (of any flavour) so I can't easily transfer using that method. > However, I have installed DOs 4.01 to the C= & it includes GW Basic & I have > linked up that machine & tyhe XP box via a null modem cable. So, all I need > is a simple terminal program on the XT & I'm pretty much in business. > Problem is, all the GW Basic sources I've found for term progs are simply > for text-based terms only, there are none around with simple transfer > abilities (ie XModem or Kermit). Now this is going to sound very vague, but perhaps it'll jog someone else's memory. Once upon a time, it was possible to buy a serial file transfer package that supported transfer to/from MS-DOS machines with no removable media, e.g. machines with dead floppy drives, so long as they were able to load MS-DOS or similar in some way. The process went something like this: 1. Make sure the two machines have compatible RS232 settings. 2. Connect the two machines with a null-modem cable. 3. On the driveless machine ('client'), type a short command that effectively mapped the serial port to the console. 4. On the 'server' machine, run the transfer software, selecting the option that sends the software to the client machine. The server would then upload and start the client software - instant networking. The downside - I don't remember which package it was that did this. LapLink? XTLink? Google wasn't helpful in this case. Mike. From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Feb 24 04:14:58 2007 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:14:58 +0100 Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF7E70.2040707@harrells.net> Message-ID: <000c01c757fc$a5b339f0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "info" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:53 AM Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive > Does anyone have the jumper settings for the Teac 55 disk drive? > Which drive are you taling about ? FD55GFr, FD55BR, ..... etc. Nico From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Feb 24 04:16:25 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:16:25 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> Message-ID: <200702241016.l1OAG46w027904@hosting.monisys.ca> > Hoping someone may be able to help - I've rebuilt an old Commodore PC 5 (XT > compatible) back to working condition. Now the problem is getting anything > on to the machine. None of my current machines are capable of supporting a > 5.25" drive (of any flavour) so I can't easily transfer using that method. > > However, I have installed DOs 4.01 to the C= & it includes GW Basic & I have > linked up that machine & tyhe XP box via a null modem cable. So, all I need > is a simple terminal program on the XT & I'm pretty much in business. > Problem is, all the GW Basic sources I've found for term progs are simply > for text-based terms only, there are none around with simple transfer > abilities (ie XModem or Kermit). > > Anyone have sourec available for a simple term program that'll at least gbet > me started by allowing me to transfer over smething better ? > > Or any other suggestion ? - Borrow the drive from the Commodore and attach to another machine long enough to write the files you need. - Attach a 3.5" drive to the Commodore. - Try INTERLINK which was distributed with DOS 6.0 - I don't think I've ever tried it with DOS 4, but it works fine with DOS 5. It has a /RCOPY option which will let you install it from a host PC without having to move it on a disk. I doubt it will run under XP however. - Use CTTY to redirect your console to the serial port, then write a program on the host PC poke a .COM transfer program into memory using DEBUG and save it. - You might want to consider picking up an old DOS (or Win9x) box - they can usually be had for free or close to it. XP is very limiting when it comes to communicating with things that MicroSloth doesn't wish to support. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Feb 24 03:08:00 2007 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:08:00 +0000 Subject: Real Time Clock - was: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:30:02 GMT." <45DF5CDA.7040602@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <200702240908.JAA26124@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, John Honniball said: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I seem to remember at least one of the old systems from the 1950's > > had a plain old analogue clock mounted on the operator's console. > > That machine had a clock, but which one it was escapes me. Nice > > touch, though. > > Wasn't that the Ferranti Pegasus? IIRC LEO (1951) had one. I think that may have been a run-time clock, not a time of day clock. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Feb 24 05:07:30 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:07:30 +0000 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <00c201c757d4$df79e760$0132a8c0@fluke> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> <5dc6fd9e0702231653gb02e408vdb28c9f0e7d633f@mail.gmail.com> <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <00c201c757d4$df79e760$0132a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: <1172315250.16544.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 18:30 +1300, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Now this is going to sound very vague, but perhaps it'll jog someone else's > memory. Once upon a time, it was possible to buy a serial file transfer > package that supported transfer to/from MS-DOS machines with no removable > media, e.g. machines with dead floppy drives, so long as they were able to > load MS-DOS or similar in some way. The process went something like this: > > 1. Make sure the two machines have compatible RS232 settings. > 2. Connect the two machines with a null-modem cable. > 3. On the driveless machine ('client'), type a short command that > effectively mapped the serial port to the console. > 4. On the 'server' machine, run the transfer software, selecting the option > that sends the software to the client machine. The server would then upload > and start the client software - instant networking. IIRC this was Laplink, using a serial cable. You entered CTTY COM1 which would switch the console to using the serial port, and then the remote Laplink would bootstrap itself and do a CTTY CON to give the console back. I can't remember exactly how it did this, maybe it did a COPY COM1 LL.COM and had a bootstrap that would copy over a 7-bit link. You could use this method to enter in a larger program, by dumping it in hex, converting it to a DEBUG script with lots of E commands and then pushing it in (assuming you have DEBUG available). -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From wizard at voyager.net Sat Feb 24 05:38:19 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 06:38:19 -0500 Subject: Is this true?? (TI & watches) In-Reply-To: <200702231104.l1NB4JFx028820@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200702231104.l1NB4JFx028820@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1172317099.13410.7.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 06:04 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > Any idea when the first all electric watch was put out? Gary Boone used > to tell some interesting stories about a chip he worked on for (I think) > an LED watch. I think a flaw kept them from bring first to market, > however. On May 6, 1970, The Hamilton Watch Company had a press conference at which it showed the Pulsar Time Computer all-electronic LED watch. At the time, they had precisely three working prototypes. They were so expensive they put them in an 18-carat gold case, and sold them for $1500. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Feb 24 06:01:06 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 07:01:06 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem Message-ID: <01C757E1.93901560@mse-d03> Laplink, Interlink and various clones all had this "remote install" feature. another mike --------------Original Message: From: "Mike van Bokhoven" Subject: Re: Restoring an XT - transfer problem To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <00c201c757d4$df79e760$0132a8c0 at fluke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Hoping someone may be able to help - I've rebuilt an old Commodore PC 5 (XT > compatible) back to working condition. Now the problem is getting anything > on to the machine. None of my current machines are capable of supporting a > 5.25" drive (of any flavour) so I can't easily transfer using that method. > However, I have installed DOs 4.01 to the C= & it includes GW Basic & I have > linked up that machine & tyhe XP box via a null modem cable. So, all I need > is a simple terminal program on the XT & I'm pretty much in business. > Problem is, all the GW Basic sources I've found for term progs are simply > for text-based terms only, there are none around with simple transfer > abilities (ie XModem or Kermit). Now this is going to sound very vague, but perhaps it'll jog someone else's memory. Once upon a time, it was possible to buy a serial file transfer package that supported transfer to/from MS-DOS machines with no removable media, e.g. machines with dead floppy drives, so long as they were able to load MS-DOS or similar in some way. The process went something like this: 1. Make sure the two machines have compatible RS232 settings. 2. Connect the two machines with a null-modem cable. 3. On the driveless machine ('client'), type a short command that effectively mapped the serial port to the console. 4. On the 'server' machine, run the transfer software, selecting the option that sends the software to the client machine. The server would then upload and start the client software - instant networking. The downside - I don't remember which package it was that did this. LapLink? XTLink? Google wasn't helpful in this case. Mike. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Feb 24 07:16:17 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:16:17 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1144.192.168.0.4.1172322977.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, February 23, 2007 22:45, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm not lucky :) All there is is a part number and legends telling me >> which >> is the line side and which is the load side. > > Hang on... Isn't the mains input IEC plug part of the filter unit? In > other words all wires are on the load side? If not (that is, if there are > wires for the input side that go to a separate IEC plug), you could > temporarily disocnnect it, and replace it with a couple of bits of wire. I'm going to cut up one of the many IEC cables we've got at work and do just that :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vp at drexel.edu Sat Feb 24 07:51:58 2007 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:51:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) Message-ID: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Anybody done business with eBay seller Alexandra Carter (alexandracarter)? She used a very neat trick on me. I bought an HP 5036A Microprocessor Lab 8-Bit Computer from her (eBay 160080545681) and paid for it with a money order which was received on Feb. 3, 2006 (USPS tracking number 0103 8555 7499 5332 2386). She then claimed to have sent the HP 5036A via USPS but has not produced a tracking number despite the fact that I specifically had asked for one. Anyway, when I pressured her about the item, she filled a non-payment dispute against me, to prevent me from posting negative feedback on her. This is despite the fact that on Feb 9, she sent me an eBay message (sitting in my eBay messages folder) confirming receipt of payment. I have been told that she has pulled this stunt before on another buyer and only delivered the goods when he threatened filing a USPS mail fraud complaint. So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. **vp From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Feb 24 10:32:58 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:32:58 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures Message-ID: Hmm- it would be nice if they identified the manufacturer that has notably higher failure rates, but I think I can make a guess (WD?) On the other hand, (perhaps it's just an age thing) I have had several drives of the IDE and SCSI types fail, and it seems that the SCSI drives are more likely to do it in the "operatic heroine" manner and either take a long time to do it or come back to life a few times allowing one to recover a bit of the data changed since last backup. IDEs tend to die rapidly and finally. Note that this is just my experience. What are current reliability rankings re: cheapo (SATA/IDE) drives (similar to what one would use to store classiccmp-related documents and software on)? From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Feb 24 10:41:21 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:41:21 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: Long-term storage (Was:...) In-Reply-To: <200702241108.l1OB7M6D065879@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702241108.l1OB7M6D065879@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 5:08 -0600 2/24/07, Chuck wrote: >I wonder how much damage micrometeorites will do after a few >millenia? A reasonable question. At least the NH CD, and I thought the Voyager one as well but could be wrong about that, are *under* the MLI (insulation, about 15 sheets of metallized mylar alternating with a very loose-weave mesh). Most dust-grain-sized stuff will vaporize on the outer layer, then get stopped by the inner layers. There is the possibility of something pea-sized, but there's not just a lot of particles/cubic km out in the Kuiper Belt and Oort cloud. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 24 10:45:06 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:45:06 -0600 Subject: Off-topic but still *not* funny. References: <5dc6fd9e0702231230q38dbc2ddo3412228ad69c0dd6@mail.gmail.com><200702240152.l1O1qW5l033543@keith.ezwind.net> <5dc6fd9e0702232039l271e10c4rb858724cbe12c21d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013a01c75833$2682a120$6600a8c0@BILLING> You wrote... > http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3607/bandwidthhoglw9.jpg Once again... start trimming your replies. Jay From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 24 11:15:18 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:15:18 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224111410.07bbe4a0@mail> At 10:32 AM 2/24/2007, you wrote: >Hmm- it would be nice if they identified the manufacturer that has notably higher failure rates, but I think I can make a guess (WD?) Google's paper addresses this. One, because they're buying so many drives, they think if everyone knows which is "best" then that will increase demand and drive up the price for those drives. Two, they don't want to help their competition. Three, they didn't want to get sued by the losers. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 24 11:17:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:17:54 -0800 Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <45DF7E70.2040707@harrells.net> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org>, <45DF7E70.2040707@harrells.net> Message-ID: <45E002C2.20196.33D8EBC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 18:53, info wrote: > Does anyone have the jumper settings for the Teac 55 disk drive? I'm > trying to one working on a old CP/M machine with a Shugart 5 1/4 > interface. It allows me to format the disk but won't read the disk back. What everyone said--the letters and numbers after the FD55 mean a whole bunch. Old FORMAT programs on CP/M machines often wrote the format, then verified in a separate pass. Since all writing a format involves is waiting for the index hole then spraying a data stream until the index is once again seen, it's no guarantee that your drive is capable of writing or reading anything. There are also a bunch of variables that hinge on what your CP/M machine needs, such as requiring a READY/ line, use of the HEAD LOAD feature, etc. Knowing what your CP/M system is, in other words, is also part of the puzzle. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 24 11:58:25 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:58:25 -0600 Subject: Trimming replies (was Re: Off-topic but still *not* funny.) References: <5dc6fd9e0702231230q38dbc2ddo3412228ad69c0dd6@mail.gmail.com><200702240152.l1O1qW5l033543@keith.ezwind.net><5dc6fd9e0702232039l271e10c4rb858724cbe12c21d@mail.gmail.com> <013a01c75833$2682a120$6600a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001b01c7583d$63514bb0$6600a8c0@BILLING> Actually, that was meant to be a private email, not a post to the list. My apologies, but it doesn't hurt to remind others as well ;) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Off-topic but still *not* funny. > You wrote... >> http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3607/bandwidthhoglw9.jpg > > Once again... start trimming your replies. > > Jay > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 24 12:06:14 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:06:14 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to In-Reply-To: <200702240111.l1O1Bwut010988@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 2007 04:13:39 PM, <200702240111.l1O1Bwut010988@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <45E00E16.29816.C9061@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2007 at 17:11, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Those sound suspiciously like the "hard disks" I'm interested in these days, > and they spin at a nice fast 78rpm. Straying a bit more off-topic, I discovered in my web peregrinating that recorded media piracy is nothing new: http://www.mainspringpress.com/pirates.html Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Feb 24 12:37:07 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:37:07 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:32:58 PST." Message-ID: <200702241837.l1OIb8De004539@mwave.heeltoe.com> Scott Quinn wrote: >Hmm- it would be nice if they identified the manufacturer that has >notably higher failure rates, but I think I can make a guess (WD?) I'll bet on maxstor. They had a sizable problem in the past few years traced back to (as I was told) building vibration. I think it caused a lot of the "first year" infant mortality (but I'd say infant is <= 90 days) -brad From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Feb 24 08:07:23 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:07:23 +0000 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702231222j5fc820c4l3f34391b0f602d05@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070223141423.07dcc340@mail> <5dc6fd9e0702231221g384d82a2kf1915644a92b7140@mail.gmail.com> <5dc6fd9e0702231222j5fc820c4l3f34391b0f602d05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45E0469B.6090104@gjcp.net> Hex Star wrote: > perhaps the best means of storage after all these years in regards to > longativity was those punch cards? :P wonder what a 1GB punchcard would > look > like... Probably something like the "bullseye" pattern on shipping labels. Gordon From jrr at flippers.com Sat Feb 24 12:39:39 2007 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:39:39 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: At 11:34 AM -0500 2/22/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: > >>Mine are in whatever format Eudora uses with "Old Style" TOC files. > >TOC files are just "Table of Contents" files - extra personal >settings, like labels, etc. The actual mail is stored in the .mbx >files - gosh, rather looks like it might mean "mbox" maybe? > >... > >=-=-= > >And... Rumor has it that John Robertson may have mentioned these words: >>The biggest problem I have with the list is the sheer volume of >>messages. My mail reader is Eudora and I do wish it could treat >>this list the same way that Agent or Unison treats newsgroup >>messages - threads sorted by dates. Or is there a way that I am >>missing buried in Eudora? > >Overall, so do I, as it seems even Thunderchicken still can't do >that - it'll thread, but it won't reshuffle old threads with new >messages to the top/bottom of the stack; at least as far as I've >seen. > >Eudora does have a handy little keyboard trick with the [alt] key: >If you hold [alt] ... > >Speaking of mail - qmail 1.0 just turned 10 years old! It's not >"kewl" so it's still offtopic (most everyone's running 1.03 anyway >-- gosh - 3 minor updates in a decade! Why can't Microsoft do >that??? ;-) but just one of those little interesting (to me) >datapoints... > >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger Looking around for threaded mail readers I stumbled across "Sweetmail" and it is starting to look like it might fit the bill for doing this mail list. It has threading like my newsreader (Unison), that works properly - for the most part - but I still haven't figured out the bells and whistles. Need to find the command to display the mesage pane for example... Still this little freeware OS X (and earlier) Eudora 1.0 emulator (Author a big fan of the original Eudora) looks like it might be just what I need to handle large volume mail lists such as this one! http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/~sweet/mail/ And the review that led to my considering this program out was: http://www.applelinks.com/mooresviews/sm21.shtml John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 24 13:06:52 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:06:52 +0000 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <45E08CCC.3020000@philpem.me.uk> Vassilis PREVELAKIS wrote: > So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. 98.6?! That's it?! I won't deal with anyone whose feedback is less than 99.5%, except in rare circumstances (i.e. only one negative comment, more than a few months ago, or a neg from someone with a very low feedback score or a lot of negs themselves). Same goes for anyone who makes their feedback private - IMO that just says you've got something to hide. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 24 13:18:56 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:18:56 -0700 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:06:52 +0000. <45E08CCC.3020000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <45E08CCC.3020000 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > Vassilis PREVELAKIS wrote: > > So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. > > 98.6?! That's it?! > I won't deal with anyone whose feedback is less than 99.5%, [...] Come on, guys, we've discussed before how the feedback system on ebay has all sort sof problems. Yet you guys routinely talk about how you won't deal with someone who has a number less than some arbitrary cutoff on an imperfect system that has all sorts of problems. You can't have it both ways. Either ebay's feedback system is flawed in which case the numbers don't mean a whole lot other than a rough indicator, or the ebay feedback system is reliable enough that you can set arbitrary minimums on percentages you're willing to deal with. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Feb 24 13:28:11 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:28:11 -0600 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <45E08CCC.3020000@philpem.me.uk> References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> <45E08CCC.3020000@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <45E091CB.9010201@brutman.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Vassilis PREVELAKIS wrote: >> So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. > > 98.6?! That's it?! > I won't deal with anyone whose feedback is less than 99.5%, except in > rare circumstances (i.e. only one negative comment, more than a few > months ago, or a neg from someone with a very low feedback score or a > lot of negs themselves). > > Same goes for anyone who makes their feedback private - IMO that just > says you've got something to hide. > Great. Now we know your personal criteria for buying from an eBay seller, which is exactly 0.9% different on the one metric than the original poster. How does that contribute to the discourse here? Do we need another eBay thread? Mike From wizard at voyager.net Sat Feb 24 14:49:12 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:49:12 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702231219o1ac16012y7021b56779990c92@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <45DF4B00.8050508@yahoo.co.uk> <5dc6fd9e0702231219o1ac16012y7021b56779990c92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1172350152.13410.94.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 12:19 -0800, Hex Star wrote: > Do those mass manufactured cds last longer then cd-rs? How long do those > last? Why can't we create cds like those? (How do they do it?) Yes, they last MUCH longer. If they started with gold foil, a lifetime of many centuries would not be out of the question. The problem is the massive expense of setting up the press to make them. Once it is set up, pressing a million is not much money. But, if the setup is for ONE of them.... Hoo, boy. I don't have a price -- I just know *I* can't afford it. Now, it might well be possible to set up a DVD (written on a home-type machine) that had *ALL* the known software of a class, or several classes, of machinery on it... Such as a CP/M DVD, a VMS DVD, etc. LOTS of software fits in 8 gigabytes... Probably, there could be a mix -- One DVD that is all known TRS-DOS and CP/M software, or whatever. But, it would take quite a few buyers to bring the price down to reasonable levels. It's the same situation as the one that annoyed a friend of mine. We were discussing personal computing, and the subject of when it started came up. Finally, he said, "Hey, there was personal computing in the 1950s, as long as your family name was Rockefeller." Back when itsy-bitsy personal computers cost as much as a new car, not many people could be that personal with them... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Sat Feb 24 14:56:59 2007 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:56:59 -0500 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1172350620.13410.97.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:30 -0700, Richard wrote: > I wondered what that weird oscillating pattern was in the shaved head > of Britney Spears. That's Coriolis Cranialis. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Feb 24 15:19:10 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8-inch floppy drives Message-ID: I didn't expect this much interest in the drives so fast. I can only deal with the first request until next weekend. I've saved the emails from the others who want a unit, so you're safe there. I'll post again when I can wrangle out some more. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From allain at panix.com Sat Feb 24 15:22:53 2007 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:22:53 -0500 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <008b01c75859$f2a85440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I bought an HP 5036A Microprocessor Lab 8-Bit Computer from her > (eBay 160080545681) and paid for it with a money order which was > received on Feb. 3, 2006 (USPS tracking number 0103 8555 7499 5332 > 2386). I don't understand why eBay can't help you with this. You paid and have the receipt. - You Can cancel Money orders. This won't prevent you from someone "ever" cashing them, but it Will prove they did cash them if they claimed otherwise. - Learning PoliteSpeak would probably help a lot of people on ClassicCmp, IE, "I'm sorry if my payment didn't reach you, this is unusual, I've paid xHundred sellers this way before without any problems. Can I ask you to wait another week for a replacement MoneyOrder to arrive?" - Doesn't eBay allow 60 days before you can no longer file a feedback? Right now #160080545681 is only 24 days old. Pretty durned early to even want to give up and file a negative... or to rant here. John A. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Feb 24 15:31:42 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:31:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <200702241837.l1OIb8De004539@mwave.heeltoe.com> from Brad Parker at "Feb 24, 7 01:37:07 pm" Message-ID: <200702242131.l1OLVgNf019682@floodgap.com> > > Hmm- it would be nice if they identified the manufacturer that has > > notably higher failure rates, but I think I can make a guess (WD?) > > I'll bet on maxstor. They had a sizable problem in the past few years > traced back to (as I was told) building vibration. I think it caused a lot > of the "first year" infant mortality (but I'd say infant is <= 90 days) I'd bet on them too, from personal experience. WD had a lot of problems in the past, but their new drives seem pretty good so far. I still prefer Seagate though. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein -------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 15:53:38 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:53:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <45DF2E0E.11484.309A0C98@cclist.sydex.com> <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> <20070223192225.Q71680@shell.lmi.net> <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070224134942.R3504@shell.lmi.net> > > Try masking off pin 34. > > Why would that make a difference, if Chuck does the former routinely? > What does pin 34 do? Some drives used pin 34 for READY, and some used it for DISK CHANGE. If your computer is expecting it to be used for READY, then you will get erroneous "DEVICE NOT READY" responses, particularly when you change disks. Conversely, a mismatch can give you a situation where DOS doesn't realize that there has been a disk change, and uses buffered copies instead of reading the disk after a change!! If you ever get the DIR of the previously read diskette showing up instead of the current ones, then ALWAYS press ctrl-C every time that you change a disk! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Feb 24 15:53:49 2007 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:53:49 -0000 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <1172350152.13410.94.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <007701c7585e$46f945a0$1a04010a@uatempname> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Now, it might well be possible to set up a DVD (written on a > home-type machine) that had *ALL* the known software of a class, or > several classes, of machinery on it... Such as a CP/M DVD, a VMS DVD, You definitely have no chance of fitting all OpenVMS software on a single DVD. The software library, docs and OS for VAX ran to about 15CDs. That's before you take into account that they were issued quarterly (OK, so lots of dupes over a year) and went back to about 1992 or so (and yes there weren't many different VMS/VAX CDs issued in 1992). The last time I looked at the Amiga stuff under TOSEC there was nearly 30GB of it. CP/M you probably have a chance at. Your odds get even better with the ZX Spectrum. But basically, there's a great deal more stuff out there than you might at firs think, even though you might not be too bothered about much of it at all. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 16:03:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:03:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DFE67A.6080609@oldskool.org> References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> <45DFE67A.6080609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070224135402.J3504@shell.lmi.net> > > Was the RCV35 (or whatever it was called) from PC-DOS 3.30 present in > > MS-DOS? (used for transferring files from 5.25" PCs to 3.5" PS/2s) On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > I have never heard of that at all -- What was the exact name, and why > was it necessary? I have PC DOS 3.3 here but I don't see anything like > what you're describing... RECV35.COM It was part of the IBM "Data Migration Facility", which was used to get files into PS/2s. RECV35.COM was bundled with the PS/2s. It was a sorta predecessor to Laplink. Note: it was a predecessor in terms of quality and features, disunirregardless of whether it came AFTER Laplink. http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/floppy/Data_Migration_Facility.html has the RECV35.COM , the COPY35.COM , pinout for the cable adapter, and instructions. It required that the receiving machine have a bi-directional printer port. The PS/2s did, and most of the non-bidirectional printer ports could be trivially modified (one cut, one jumper) to be able to tri-state the data lines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 24 16:20:19 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:20:19 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702241420o56fe25edx445d6e43f98f2339@mail.gmail.com> On 2/24/07, John Robertson wrote: > > At 11:34 AM -0500 2/22/07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: > > > >>Mine are in whatever format Eudora uses with "Old Style" TOC files. > > > >TOC files are just "Table of Contents" files - extra personal > >settings, like labels, etc. The actual mail is stored in the .mbx > >files - gosh, rather looks like it might mean "mbox" maybe? > > > >... > > > >=-=-= > > > >And... Rumor has it that John Robertson may have mentioned these words: > >>The biggest problem I have with the list is the sheer volume of > >>messages. My mail reader is Eudora and I do wish it could treat > >>this list the same way that Agent or Unison treats newsgroup > >>messages - threads sorted by dates. Or is there a way that I am > >>missing buried in Eudora? > > > >Overall, so do I, as it seems even Thunderchicken still can't do > >that - it'll thread, but it won't reshuffle old threads with new > >messages to the top/bottom of the stack; at least as far as I've > >seen. > > > >Eudora does have a handy little keyboard trick with the [alt] key: > >If you hold [alt] ... > > > >Speaking of mail - qmail 1.0 just turned 10 years old! It's not > >"kewl" so it's still offtopic (most everyone's running 1.03 anyway > >-- gosh - 3 minor updates in a decade! Why can't Microsoft do > >that??? ;-) but just one of those little interesting (to me) > >datapoints... > > > >HTH, > >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > Looking around for threaded mail readers I stumbled across > "Sweetmail" and it is starting to look like it might fit the bill for > doing this mail list. It has threading like my newsreader (Unison), > that works properly - for the most part - but I still haven't figured > out the bells and whistles. Need to find the command to display the > mesage pane for example... > > Still this little freeware OS X (and earlier) Eudora 1.0 emulator > (Author a big fan of the original Eudora) looks like it might be just > what I need to handle large volume mail lists such as this one! > > http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/~sweet/mail/ > > And the review that led to my considering this program out was: > > http://www.applelinks.com/mooresviews/sm21.shtml > > John :-#)# > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > gmail is free, reliable, feature filled and does threading very nicely in its web interface :-) From hexstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 24 16:21:31 2007 From: hexstar at gmail.com (Hex Star) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:21:31 -0800 Subject: List stats? In-Reply-To: <5dc6fd9e0702241420o56fe25edx445d6e43f98f2339@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DB0808.8010005@yahoo.co.uk> <45DCEAD8.7000006@yahoo.co.uk> <020801c75621$fd473400$6600a8c0@BILLING> <5.1.0.14.2.20070222111800.012ba488@mail.30below.com> <5dc6fd9e0702241420o56fe25edx445d6e43f98f2339@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5dc6fd9e0702241421h63632862i91de7d26c79dc3d2@mail.gmail.com> On 2/24/07, Hex Star wrote: > > > > On 2/24/07, John Robertson wrote: > > > > > > > > Looking around for threaded mail readers I stumbled across > > "Sweetmail" and it is starting to look like it might fit the bill for > > doing this mail list. It has threading like my newsreader (Unison), > > that works properly - for the most part - but I still haven't figured > > out the bells and whistles. Need to find the command to display the > > mesage pane for example... > > > > Still this little freeware OS X (and earlier) Eudora 1.0 emulator > > (Author a big fan of the original Eudora) looks like it might be just > > what I need to handle large volume mail lists such as this one! > > > > http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/~sweet/mail/ > > > > And the review that led to my considering this program out was: > > > > http://www.applelinks.com/mooresviews/sm21.shtml > > > > John :-#)# > > -- > > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > > www.flippers.com > > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > > > > gmail is free, reliable, feature filled and does threading very nicely in > its web interface :-) > oops sorry for not trimming my quote earlier... From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 16:22:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:22:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <200702240827.l1O8RO1D005603@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> <200702240827.l1O8RO1D005603@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20070224140517.U3504@shell.lmi.net> > > Was the RCV35 (or whatever it was called) from PC-DOS 3.30 present in > > MS-DOS? (used for transferring files from 5.25" PCs to 3.5" PS/2s) On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: > Not that I recall. And thinking about it some more, I may have this > cross-threaded with when CONFIG.SYS menus turned up, because that > was a part of the process too (plug in the 100LX running INTERSVR and > reboot the PC to select the startup that loads INTERLNK). Ah, alas. My dynamic RAM becomes unreliable if it isn't refreshed. RECV35.COM might have been on the "startup" or "reference" disks of the PS/2s, instead of the PC-DOS 3.30 disk. That would mean that you will need to get RECV35.COM (or equivalent Laplink, etc.) onto the machine. At least, with DOS on the machine, there'll be a copy of DEBUG. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 16:31:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:31:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <1172315250.16544.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org> <5dc6fd9e0702231653gb02e408vdb28c9f0e7d633f@mail.gmail.com> <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <00c201c757d4$df79e760$0132a8c0@fluke> <1172315250.16544.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <20070224142739.O3504@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I can't remember exactly how it did this, maybe it did a COPY COM1 > LL.COM and had a bootstrap that would copy over a 7-bit link. > You could use this method to enter in a larger program, by dumping it in > hex, converting it to a DEBUG script with lots of E commands and then > pushing it in (assuming you have DEBUG available). 7 bit is correct. The DOS COPY command refuses to COPY a "binary" file from a device. There is even an error message stating that in COMMAND.COM. Therefore, it is necessary that the stage of the bootstrapping that uses COPY must be a text[able] file. Fortunately, a program that will "copy" from a device does not need to be very long. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 24 16:44:09 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:44:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to In-Reply-To: <45E00E16.29816.C9061@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 2007 04:13:39 PM, <200702240111.l1O1Bwut010988@onyx.spiritone.com> <45E00E16.29816.C9061@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070224144302.K3504@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Straying a bit more off-topic, I discovered in my web peregrinating > that recorded media piracy is nothing new: > > http://www.mainspringpress.com/pirates.html previously player piano rolls were pirated From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Feb 24 16:56:58 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:56:58 -0800 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> CONTACT Ebays fraud department, and forward them copies of the message that she stated that she received your payment. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vassilis PREVELAKIS Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:52 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) Anybody done business with eBay seller Alexandra Carter (alexandracarter)? She used a very neat trick on me. I bought an HP 5036A Microprocessor Lab 8-Bit Computer from her (eBay 160080545681) and paid for it with a money order which was received on Feb. 3, 2006 (USPS tracking number 0103 8555 7499 5332 2386). She then claimed to have sent the HP 5036A via USPS but has not produced a tracking number despite the fact that I specifically had asked for one. Anyway, when I pressured her about the item, she filled a non-payment dispute against me, to prevent me from posting negative feedback on her. This is despite the fact that on Feb 9, she sent me an eBay message (sitting in my eBay messages folder) confirming receipt of payment. I have been told that she has pulled this stunt before on another buyer and only delivered the goods when he threatened filing a USPS mail fraud complaint. So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. **vp From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Feb 24 17:03:40 2007 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:03:40 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures Message-ID: <6f6b3517ab43bae43d35e0f09554227e@valleyimplants.com> >> Hmm- it would be nice if they identified the manufacturer that has >> notably higher failure rates, but I think I can make a guess (WD?) > > Google's paper addresses this. One, because they're buying so many > drives, they think if everyone knows which is "best" then that will > increase demand and drive up the price for those drives. Two, they > don't want to help their competition. Three, they didn't want to get > sued by the losers. > > - John An explanation of why they find printing the data inconvenient or frightening does not negate the fact that it would be nice to have. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Feb 24 17:06:22 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:06:22 -0800 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <008b01c75859$f2a85440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> <008b01c75859$f2a85440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1d3d01c75868$68384630$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 1:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) >I don't understand why eBay can't help you with this. >You paid and have the receipt. Once someone files a Non Paying Bidder, the person filed on loses all capability of EVER leaving feedback on the transaction. Some less than scrupulous sellers use this tactic to keep from getting negative feedback on their ebay accounts. >Doesn't eBay allow 60 days before you can no longer file a feedback? Right >now #160080545681 is only 24 days old. Pretty durned early to even want >to give up and file a negative... or to rant here. Once again, as soon as this woman filed a NPB on him, AFTER acknowledging to him that she received payment and wouldn't provide him tracking information he lost any ability to EVER leave feedback. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Feb 24 17:27:24 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:27:24 -0800 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <1d4501c7586b$5735ff50$0701a8c0@liberator> Grrr, sorry, -this- one was supposed to go to the original poster, I thought I had changed the TO email address :( From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 24 17:35:01 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:35:01 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <6f6b3517ab43bae43d35e0f09554227e@valleyimplants.com> References: <6f6b3517ab43bae43d35e0f09554227e@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224173434.07eb78b8@mail> At 05:03 PM 2/24/2007, Scott Quinn wrote: >An explanation of why they find printing the data inconvenient or frightening does not negate the fact that it would be nice to have. I'd like a pony and an ice cream cone, too. - John From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 24 18:10:56 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:10:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I found some old files... Message-ID: <575367.45274.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> ok, just to keep you folks updated I just downloaded StopZilla (anti-adware, anti-spyware and anti-phishing (whats that?) software) - I downloaded AVG Free, the latest version, last night which is a anti-virus program. Ok, onto retro stuff... Today I was testing out the disk drive on my laptop. For this I was going through a bunch of PC disks I bought ages ago - I was gonna erase them and use them on my Amiga. Amongst them were some retro games (some that were unplayable due to my CPU being too fast - 700MHz vs. the original 8MHz-ish!), various utilities, loads of pictures (in .PCX format) and one cool picture of New York (.bmp image). Worth noting were a several text files for retro computers which I shall stick online later. Also worth having was the Gates Does Windows screensaver (very funny) and a tool to save the desktop image (just like I was able to do on the Amiga) - it works on Windows 2K despite being written around 1992!!! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mail sent using my laptop... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 17:47:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:47:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Where there's smoke there's... a hard disk!?! In-Reply-To: <988147.96099.qm@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Feb 23, 7 07:42:09 pm Message-ID: > > Recently, an accquaintaince was cleaning up his house > and came upon some old hardware, and asked - do I want > some old hard disks? Sure! He gave me a pair of old > Avid external 9 gig hard drives. Basically just 9 gig I have a great oroblem regarding any 9GB hard disk as 'old'... [...] > than the drive..), and flipped it over. There was a > burnt mark on the board the size of a nickel, and the > board had started to delaminate. In the center, a > charred husk of a something that resembled a surface > mount capacitor of some sort, a small rectangular > component about the size of a standard jumper laying > flat. Hmm, I haven't got anything to lose at this [...] I'll bet it was an SMD tantalum capacitor, and that it was a decoupling (bypass) capacitor on one of the power lines. Such capacitors (both wire-ended and SMD) are well-known for going short-circuit, and if they're across a power line they generally catch fire (they glow red...) and emit vast amounts of magixc smoke. And the device just carries on working... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 17:34:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:34:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> from "Lance Lyon" at Feb 24, 7 12:23:35 pm Message-ID: > Problem is, all the GW Basic sources I've found for term progs are simply > for text-based terms only, there are none around with simple transfer > abilities (ie XModem or Kermit). It's been some time since I looked at this, but I thought there was a receive-only version of Kermit written in BASIC (printed in the 'Kermit book' if nowhere else). The idea was you typed it in and used it to transfer the full kermit onto the target machine. > Anyone have sourec available for a simple term program that'll at least gbet > me started by allowing me to transfer over smething better ? > > Or any other suggestion ? Where are you? Is there any other list member nearby who could stick MS-DOS kermit onto a 5.25" disk? Will laplink (or whatever it's called) run on that machine? I seem to remember there was a way to transfer that onto a target machine using the serial line only. Can you (temporarily) cable up a 3.5" drive to the XT machine? XT controllers should be able to handle 720K 3.5" disks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 17:52:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:52:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 24, 7 01:16:10 am Message-ID: > > Try masking off pin 34. > > Why would that make a difference, if Chuck does the former routinely? > What does pin 34 do? It's 'Ready' on older (XT) drives and 'Disk changed' on later (AT) drives I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 17:24:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:24:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <45DF7E70.2040707@harrells.net> from "info" at Feb 23, 7 06:53:20 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have the jumper settings for the Teac 55 disk drive? I'm Which one? There are _many_ series of Teac FD55 drives, and the PCBs (and thus the jumper settings) are different between the various series. Within each sereis there are models of various capacities, denoted by suffix letters (this makes less of a difference, in general the jumpers do much the same thing whether, for example, the drive is 40 or 80 cylinder) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 17:42:37 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:42:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Feb 23, 7 07:42:04 pm Message-ID: > I got a molex connector that had the right pin pattern but needed > some trimming of the plastic to fit. I got it at a local surplus shop > so don't have a number for it. A thing I've done a few times when I've needed an odd Molex/AMP connector for one of my own machines was to find some pins of the right diameter, solder the wires/resistor/whatever to them, stick them in the appropriate holes of the socket, and insulat the bit that sticks out with heat-shrink sleeving. It's a kludge, sure. It;s easy to get the pins in the wrong holes, sure. If you can get the right housing, use it. But if you can't it'll get the machine going without any modifications to said machine so you can go back to the origianl state if you want to -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 18:09:03 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:09:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <1144.192.168.0.4.1172322977.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from "Witchy" at Feb 24, 7 01:16:17 pm Message-ID: > > wires for the input side that go to a separate IEC plug), you could > > temporarily disocnnect it, and replace it with a couple of bits of wire. > > I'm going to cut up one of the many IEC cables we've got at work and do > just that :) I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 18:12:44 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:12:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to In-Reply-To: <45E00E16.29816.C9061@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 7 10:06:14 am Message-ID: > Straying a bit more off-topic, I discovered in my web peregrinating > that recorded media piracy is nothing new: Interestingly (at least to me) the use of the word 'piracy' in that sense isn't new either. Recently I bought a book entitled 'Elementary Lessons in Electricity and Magnetism' in a charity shop, said book is over 100 years old. And the preface states that a new edition was needed, in part, bnecuase of the priacey (that was the word used) of earlier editions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 18:19:02 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:19:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070224135402.J3504@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 24, 7 02:03:29 pm Message-ID: > It required that the receiving machine have a bi-directional printer port. > The PS/2s did, and most of the non-bidirectional printer ports could be > trivially modified (one cut, one jumper) to be able to tri-state the data > lines. The original IBM Printer card (the printer-only one used in the PC and XT), but not the MDA adapter (which also included a printer port, of course) have 3 little solder pads in a a line at 0.1" space. 2 of them are linked by a trace. If you cut this trace and solder a 3-pin header in place, you can fit a jumper link. In one position the card is a normal output-only card (the OE/ line of the '374 that drives the data lines is grounded), in the other potiion it's bidirectional (the OE/ line is linked to the noprmally unused output of the '174 that is the control output port). This is, AFRAK, not shown on the schematic in the techref for some odd reason. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 18:05:54 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:05:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45E00674.3783E6FE@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 24, 7 01:33:38 am Message-ID: > > If the 9872 is like that, it should be very easily possible to work out > > what the 9815 interface is doing, since presumanbly it's also mostly > > I had no qualms or questions about what it is doing, it appears quite > straightforward. > > > handled in hardware, possbily even much the same hardware. From what > > you've said, it must be more than just a listen-only (unaddressable) HPIB > > interface, since the plotter can send data back to the 9815 > > Try re-reading my previous replies. You're making it more complex than it is. It would do me no good to re-read the repliece. I know what you've said, but _I_ have a problem with it. What you're describing is, I beleive, technically impossible. I believe you are claiming a bidirectional data transfer over an HPIB (IEEE-488) line with no addressing of devices. Now, from all I've read (indluding the original IEEE488-1975 standard) and all I've ever worked with, addressing is what determines the direction of data transfer. The device addresed as a talker outputs data, the device(s) addressed as listener(s) input said data. I _has_ to be that way, becvause there is no particular device that has to be invovled in every transfer. It may be convnetional to always have the controller (computer) taking part in every data transfer, but it certainly is not required. The controller could address one device (say a voltmeter) as a talker, another device (a printer) as a listent and then 'sit back' while the readings from the voltmeter were printed out. So there io no 'read/write' line or equivlaent on the HPIB interface. > The 9815 interface connection consists merely of: I've looked at hpmuseum.net. Alas the 98130 (olotter interface) manual is not there, so I can't see shcemaitcs of that unit. And the schematics of the 9872 are quite hard to read -- I hate reading scanned schematics on a screen anyway (and no, this is not because I am trying to read them on my text-only display :-)). But anyway... > - the 8 HPIB data lines (bidirectional) Actually, I thought it was only 7 data lines (DIO8 is not wired to the 9815 connector). That makes sense, HPGL is sent in ASCII, which is a 7 bit code. > - the 3 HPIB handshake lines (bidirectional) > - a reset/device-clear line > - a static 9815-mode assertion line > - common Looking at the scheamtics, the 9815 interfaces uses the same hardware as the HPIB interface (the appropriate pins on the 2 connectors are wired in parallel). So the handshake must be the nroaml HPIB one, since all that is handled in hardware anyway. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it works something like this : At power-up, if the 9815-mode line is asseeted, the plotter goes into listen mode (the HPIB talk/listen modes can be controlled from the plotter's microcontroller, this is also used for self-tests on the HPIB interface, as it is on the 7245...). The 9815 talks and sends it data. If the poltter gets a command that should output data (say a digitise command), it goes into talk mode automatically and sends said data. The 9815 side of things knows it's just sent such a command and goes into listen mode to recieve said data. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 24 17:28:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:28:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to In-Reply-To: <45DF12B3.12461.302F3152@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 7 04:13:39 pm Message-ID: > ...and to some people a hard disk means a recording medium that uses > shellac as a binder... This reminds me of the time a friend was talking about a later version of that audio starage medium and mentioned 'LP disks'. Without thinking I came out with 'But the References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Vassilis PREVELAKIS wrote: > I have been told that she has pulled this stunt before on another > buyer and only delivered the goods when he threatened filing a > USPS mail fraud complaint. ... which you should directly go to the USPS web site right now and fill out a fraud complaint form and file it with the Postal Inspection Service. Now. THEN contact eBay's fraud department. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 24 20:08:25 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:08:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I found some old files... In-Reply-To: <575367.45274.qm@web23415.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070225020825.43903.qmail@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Andrew Burton wrote: **>>snip<<** Ok, onto retro stuff... Today I was testing out the disk drive on my laptop. For this I was going through a bunch of PC disks I bought ages ago - I was gonna erase them and use them on my Amiga. Amongst them were some retro games (some that were unplayable due to my CPU being too fast - 700MHz vs. the original 8MHz-ish!), various utilities, loads of pictures (in .PCX format) and one cool picture of New York (.bmp image). Worth noting were a several text files for retro computers which I shall stick online later. Said files (only 2, I thought there were more!) are now online at: http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/old_comps/ Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mail posted via my laptop. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 24 20:17:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:17:39 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: <20070224135402.J3504@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 24, 7 02:03:29 pm, Message-ID: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2007 at 0:19, Tony Duell wrote: > The original IBM Printer card (the printer-only one used in the PC and > XT), but not the MDA adapter (which also included a printer port, of > course) have 3 little solder pads in a a line at 0.1" space. 2 of them > are linked by a trace. If you cut this trace and solder a 3-pin header in > place, you can fit a jumper link. In one position the card is a normal > output-only card (the OE/ line of the '374 that drives the data lines is > grounded), in the other potiion it's bidirectional (the OE/ line is > linked to the noprmally unused output of the '174 that is the control > output port). This is, AFRAK, not shown on the schematic in the techref > for some odd reason. The MDA port can also be reconfigured as bidirectional, but IIRC, it's a cut trace and a jumper. I did that with one and ran it until its end of useful life (superceded by a Herc Plus card) without getting into any problems with anyone using the heretofore-unused bit 5 (IIRC) in the output control register. It seems that just about everyone assumes that said bit should be zero. Cheers, Chuck From river at zip.com.au Sat Feb 24 20:19:00 2007 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:19:00 +1100 Subject: Floppy Diskette Interface Signals & Timing In-Reply-To: <200702250102.l1P1157J078467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070225021858.A892C27404@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Hi, I've been trying to find (on the net) information regarding the signal timing for the 3.5inch floppy diskette drive. I want to play around with one and connect it to one of my home-brewed systems (6502 or 8085), but I need to know the timing of the signals, plus what the different logic levels means on some signals, etc. I can get plenty of information regarding the 34-pin connector and signal names, but nothing on timing and logic levels. I'd be most happy if someone could illuminate me to where I could get this information. river From marvin at rain.org Sat Feb 24 20:34:08 2007 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:34:08 -0800 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) Message-ID: <45E0F5A0.FF991A44@rain.org> She has been selling on ebay for quite a few years, and has some ... strong opinions about a lot of things. She usually attends VCF and the Livermore swapmeet. If I see her next week at Livermore, I'll ask her about it. My impression is still that she has some strong opinions, but is not dishonest in her dealings. It wouldn't surprise me though to see her overreacting. > From: Vassilis PREVELAKIS > > Anybody done business with eBay seller Alexandra Carter (alexandracarter)? > > She used a very neat trick on me. > > I bought an HP 5036A Microprocessor Lab 8-Bit Computer from her > (eBay 160080545681) and paid for it with a money order which was > received on Feb. 3, 2006 (USPS tracking number 0103 8555 7499 5332 > 2386). > > She then claimed to have sent the HP 5036A via USPS but has not > produced a tracking number despite the fact that I specifically had > asked for one. > > Anyway, when I pressured her about the item, she filled a non-payment > dispute against me, to prevent me from posting negative feedback > on her. > > This is despite the fact that on Feb 9, she sent me an eBay message > (sitting in my eBay messages folder) confirming receipt of payment. > > I have been told that she has pulled this stunt before on another > buyer and only delivered the goods when he threatened filing a > USPS mail fraud complaint. > > So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. > > **vp > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 24 21:15:22 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:15:22 -0800 Subject: Floppy Diskette Interface Signals & Timing In-Reply-To: <20070225021858.A892C27404@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> References: <200702250102.l1P1157J078467@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20070225021858.A892C27404@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <45E08ECA.27017.2034E7A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2007 at 13:19, river wrote: > I've been trying to find (on the net) information regarding the signal > timing for the 3.5inch floppy diskette drive. Other than pin 34 (usually disk changed\, but can be ready\ depending on jumpering), a 3.5" disk drive follows a plain old 5.25" 360K with two differences--there is usually a media sensor that adjusts the drive electronics to accommodate high-density operation (1.44MB nominally, but the exact capacity and format is up to you) when a suitable diskette is inserted. Seek on most 3.5" drives can run as low as 4msec track to track or even faster, while 6 msec is the usual for 5.25" (although very old drives can take up to 30 msec track-to-track). All signals are active low, which leads to the interesting phenomenon of a clobbered track if the drive interface connector is inserted upside-down. Mostly, floppies are quite brain-dead and you're best off interfacing one using an LSI controller, such as the WD1770 series (very easy) or one of the NEC uPD 765 series (WD37C65, NS8477, Intel 82077, etc.). which handle the timing issues very neatly. Here's a good starting place for 360K signal explanations: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/54096-2_SA400_Service_Apr79.pdf This is the old veneered and not-so-generated Shugart SA400, the grandaddy of 5.25" drives. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Feb 24 22:01:51 2007 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:01:51 -0600 Subject: LOL -- classiccmp in AARP magazine References: <000001c757be$4509ee70$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <013a01c75891$b31ec970$26406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:48 PM Subject: LOL -- classiccmp in AARP magazine > My father just showed me a recent issue of the AARP magazine. On page 19 > there's a small blurb about computer collecting. It's WAY off-base. Says > that computers of the 80s and 90s are collectible (great, so now every > old-time with a late-90s PC will come forward), and -- better yet -- it > claims that an Apple IIe recently sold for $6,100. LOL, we're all rich! > What was the exact issue? Thanks From evan at snarc.net Sat Feb 24 22:37:24 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:37:24 -0500 Subject: LOL -- classiccmp in AARP magazine In-Reply-To: <013a01c75891$b31ec970$26406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <002601c75896$a5a7e150$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I guess whatever the current one is. -----Original Message----- From: Keys [mailto:jrkeys at concentric.net] Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LOL -- classiccmp in AARP magazine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:48 PM Subject: LOL -- classiccmp in AARP magazine > My father just showed me a recent issue of the AARP magazine. On page 19 > there's a small blurb about computer collecting. It's WAY off-base. Says > that computers of the 80s and 90s are collectible (great, so now every > old-time with a late-90s PC will come forward), and -- better yet -- it > claims that an Apple IIe recently sold for $6,100. LOL, we're all rich! > What was the exact issue? Thanks From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Feb 24 22:59:54 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 05:59:54 +0100 Subject: Any IMP's still around? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1172379595.5757.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 15:01 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article <45B922C0.9070007 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > > Anyone ever recovered one of the original IMP's and restored it back to > > a functional state? > IIRC, the Computer History Museum has one of the original DARPAnet > IMPs. I believe the Norwegian NORSAR-TIP has been preserved in the Norwegian museum of Technology - this is of course a 316 being a TIP. The NORSAR-TIP was the first note outside the US, set up in 1973 using SATNET, at 2.4kbits. -Tore :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Feb 24 23:05:12 2007 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 06:05:12 +0100 Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <20070202144759.B17296@shell.lmi.net> References: <20070202144759.B17296@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1172379912.5757.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 14:49 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > The quintessentail 'arty' machine I still say is the > > Won't we be flamed if we don't acknowledge the Kim-1 as the most beautiful > of all time? My personal candidate for this thread is the 1981 Soviet M-13 supercomputer, which I only recently discovered: http://sovietcomputing.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=254 (The whole rest of the site is in itself very interesting as well!) -Tore :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 24 23:50:38 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:50:38 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) References: Message-ID: <45E123AF.878A9429@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'm going to cut up one of the many IEC cables we've got at work and do > > just that :) > > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... Once again Tony weighs in with his estimable opinion of how everyone else should behave. I wonder how anyone can be so obtuse to the notion that other people exist in different circumstances, make different valuations, have different priorities and different techniques, than oneself. Especially after repeatedly having the notion pointed out to one. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 24 23:50:12 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:50:12 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: Message-ID: <45E12395.2533F47D@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it works something like this : > At power-up, if the 9815-mode line is asseeted, the plotter goes into ^^^^^^^^^ > listen mode (the HPIB talk/listen modes can be controlled from the ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ > plotter's microcontroller, this is also used for self-tests on the HPIB > interface, as it is on the 7245...). The 9815 talks and sends it data. ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ > If the poltter gets a command that should output data (say a digitise > command), it goes into talk mode automatically and sends said data. The ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ > 9815 side of things knows it's just sent such a command and goes into > listen mode to recieve said data. ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ Good for you, you've finally got it. As I said previously: un-addressed talk/listen HPIB-style data transfer. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 25 00:19:09 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:19:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <1172379912.5757.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> from Tore Sinding Bekkedal at "Feb 25, 7 06:05:12 am" Message-ID: <200702250619.l1P6J9cN016102@floodgap.com> > My personal candidate for this thread is the 1981 Soviet M-13 > supercomputer, which I only recently discovered: > > http://sovietcomputing.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=254 Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Obscenity is the last refuge of a weak mind. -- Bonnie Fortney ------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 25 01:21:18 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:21:18 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <45E123AF.878A9429@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <45E123AF.878A9429@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45E0C86E.10303.2E4748D@cclist.sydex.com> > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... No, but it might be the easiest and cheapest way to go about getting a bare-leads power cord. I've got tons and tons of IEC cables; they just keep accumulating. On the other hand, I have relatively few high-quality (e.g. neoprene jacket) leaded power cables and I reserve those for permanent installations. But whacking the end off of an iEC cable for a jury rig? Sure, without even a second thought. They're like wire coat hangers and safety pins--they breed in the dark. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 25 04:43:52 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:43:52 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4693.192.168.0.4.1172400232.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sun, February 25, 2007 00:09, Tony Duell wrote: > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... Because I've got enough crap lying around as it is ;) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Feb 25 05:29:50 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:29:50 +0000 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E1732E.1020507@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > It's a kludge, sure. It;s easy to get the pins in the wrong holes, sure. > If you can get the right housing, use it. But if you can't it'll get the > machine going without any modifications to said machine so you can go > back to the origianl state if you want to As someone who has never played with much old HP kit, I find myself having to ask: What exactly does this plug do? Gordon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 25 09:55:05 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:55:05 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224111410.07bbe4a0@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224111410.07bbe4a0@mail> Message-ID: <45E1B159.3000305@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > At 10:32 AM 2/24/2007, you wrote: >> Hmm- it would be nice if they identified the manufacturer that has notably higher failure rates, but I think I can make a guess (WD?) > > Google's paper addresses this. One, because they're buying so many > drives, they think if everyone knows which is "best" then that will > increase demand and drive up the price for those drives. Two, they > don't want to help their competition. Three, they didn't want to get > sued by the losers. I'm baffled as to why they could be sued over personal observation; what possible grounds could anyone have for suing someone who states "I have one of these and it didn't work very well in these particular circumstances"? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 25 09:58:29 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:58:29 -0600 Subject: Where there's smoke there's... a hard disk!?! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E1B225.1040808@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I'll bet it was an SMD tantalum capacitor, and that it was a decoupling > (bypass) capacitor on one of the power lines. Such capacitors (both > wire-ended and SMD) are well-known for going short-circuit, and if > they're across a power line they generally catch fire (they glow red...) > and emit vast amounts of magixc smoke. And the device just carries on > working... Just for a second possibility, *always* check the underside of "unknown" drives before plugging them in (Which Ian may well have done) - because the electronics are exposed, I've seen a few where there's been component damage due to bad storage. It's possible (although I agree that a simple failure's more likely) that something was shorted where it shouldn't be.... cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Feb 25 10:02:06 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:02:06 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45E1B159.3000305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224111410.07bbe4a0@mail> <45E1B159.3000305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070225100131.07aa5ce8@mail> At 09:55 AM 2/25/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >I'm baffled as to why they could be sued over personal observation; what possible grounds could anyone have for suing someone who states "I have one of these and it didn't work very well in these particular circumstances"? A market cap of many billions of dollars? - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 25 10:10:48 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:10:48 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <1172350152.13410.94.camel@linux.site> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <45DF4B00.8050508@yahoo.co.uk> <5dc6fd9e0702231219o1ac16012y7021b56779990c92@mail.gmail.com> <1172350152.13410.94.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45E1B508.503@yahoo.co.uk> Warren Wolfe wrote: > On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 12:19 -0800, Hex Star wrote: >> Do those mass manufactured cds last longer then cd-rs? How long do those >> last? Why can't we create cds like those? (How do they do it?) > > Yes, they last MUCH longer. If they started with gold foil, a > lifetime of many centuries would not be out of the question. > > The problem is the massive expense of setting up the press to make > them. Once it is set up, pressing a million is not much money. But, if > the setup is for ONE of them.... Hoo, boy. I don't have a price -- I > just know *I* can't afford it. As a related aside, I happened to have a scan of a Laserdisc cutting service flyer from the 1980's. They quote ?395 for a acrylic RLV recordable Laserdisc, ?595 for glass, and mention that a master disc using conventional cutting would normally average more than ?2500. RLV is apparently single-sided, unlike conventional discs. This particular cutter was made by the "Optical Disc Corporation of America". Presumably CDs were in a similar sort of price bracket a few years after they became popular, as were DVDs? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 25 10:18:17 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:18:17 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070225100131.07aa5ce8@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224111410.07bbe4a0@mail> <45E1B159.3000305@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070225100131.07aa5ce8@mail> Message-ID: <45E1B6C9.4050904@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > At 09:55 AM 2/25/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I'm baffled as to why they could be sued over personal observation; what possible grounds could anyone have for suing someone who states "I have one of these and it didn't work very well in these particular circumstances"? > > A market cap of many billions of dollars? So what? If it's just observation involving products from different vendors, backed up with documentation used to arrive at that observation, then where's the actual case? All the suing company will get is a long drawn-out battle after which they'll lose and have to pay massive legal costs. In fact, by *not* publishing manufacturer names, it almost makes Google look like they're not running their drives according to the manufacturer's recommendations (heat, humidity etc.), therefore making the published results suspect anyway. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Feb 25 11:05:06 2007 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:05:06 -0600 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45E1B6C9.4050904@yahoo.co.uk> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20070224111410.07bbe4a0@mail> <45E1B159.3000305@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20070225100131.07aa5ce8@mail> <45E1B6C9.4050904@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070225110419.07b8c400@mail> At 10:18 AM 2/25/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >In fact, by *not* publishing manufacturer names, it almost makes Google look like they're not running their drives according to the manufacturer's recommendations (heat, humidity etc.), therefore making the published results suspect anyway. Please read the papers. They're interesting and you can test your assumptions. - John From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Feb 25 13:59:20 2007 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:59:20 -0500 Subject: HP-IB Tape Drive Manual References: <6f6b3517ab43bae43d35e0f09554227e@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <000a01c75917$70bad200$a4a4fea9@win2000> Poked around and found a copy of: "HP7974A, HP7978A/B, HP7980A, HP7980XC" "HP-IB INTERFACE PROTOCOL SPECIFICATIONS" This manual has all the command and control sequences for those HP-IB tape drives. I'd be willing to share the doc under the condtion that it gets scanned and put on the web (bitsavers..etc) and most importantly, that it gets returned to me. If anyone wants to scan it and return the original (promptly), let me know. See yas, SteveRob From gstreet at indy.net Sun Feb 25 15:04:14 2007 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:04:14 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subject: Solder & Flux Questions Message-ID: <24096419.1172437454484.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> How many "solder masters" are on this discussion group? I've seen some mention of newer types of solder (lead free?). I've also seen mention and used one type of water soluble flux (BTW, I really liked it). I've been using Kester "44" .031 solder for years (for small work). However, I've got a project that I'd like to have every advantage possible (as far as having good, clean soldered connections). Does anyone have any suggestions? I wonder if the lead-free stuff has a higher melting temperature? BTW, I'm using a WTCPT soldering station. Any tips would be appreciated. Thank you, Robert Greenstreet From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 25 14:41:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:41:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45E12395.2533F47D@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 24, 7 09:50:12 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it works something like this : > > At power-up, if the 9815-mode line is asseeted, the plotter goes into > ^^^^^^^^^ > > listen mode (the HPIB talk/listen modes can be controlled from the > ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ > > plotter's microcontroller, this is also used for self-tests on the HPIB > > interface, as it is on the 7245...). The 9815 talks and sends it data. > ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ > > If the poltter gets a command that should output data (say a digitise > > command), it goes into talk mode automatically and sends said data. The > ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ > > 9815 side of things knows it's just sent such a command and goes into > > listen mode to recieve said data. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ > > Good for you, you've finally got it. Is this docuemtned anywhere? I can't see it in the 9872 operating/service manual, but as I said I've not seen the 98130 (9815 plotter interface) manual. > As I said previously: un-addressed talk/listen HPIB-style data transfer. HPIB-style, but not HPIB!. It may use the HPIB lavels, it may use the same 3 wire handshake, but it's not HPIB if it changes direction like that without any commands fromt he controller. That's what confused me. You kept on insisting it was HPIB, I still claim that, strictly, it can't be. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 25 14:35:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:35:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 7 06:17:39 pm Message-ID: > The MDA port can also be reconfigured as bidirectional, but IIRC, > it's a cut trace and a jumper. I did that with one and ran it until Sure. As can a lot of the clone printer cards. The mod is to disconnect the OE/ pin of the data latch ('374) from ground and to connect it to the bit 5 (?) output of the control port (nearly always a '174, and nearly always the input of this section is already wired to the D5 line from the ISA bus). It's just that the IBM printer (only) card had that postion for the 3-pin jumper header, and one of the traces going to those solder pads had no other function other than to make the port bidirectional. Incidentally, I once saw a clone dual serial and one parallel port card where there was a 40 pin ASIC that implemented the first serial port and most of the printer port (the control/status lines, for example). But the printer data port was a separate '374 on the board (D inputs from the data bus, Q outputs to the DB25 connector), but with no way to read it back. It was clocked by a pin on the ASIC. Writing to that port address latched the data into the 374 (and thus made it available to the printer) and latched the data in a register inside the ASIC. Reading that port address read the register inside the ASIC. Therefore it would pass the standard printer tests, but it couldn't detect a failure of the output latch, or a short in the cable, or... And of course it couldn't be made bidirectional That card ended up in somebody else's machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 25 14:42:15 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:42:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <45E123AF.878A9429@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 24, 7 09:50:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I'm going to cut up one of the many IEC cables we've got at work and do > > > just that :) > > > > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... > > Once again Tony weighs in with his estimable opinion of how everyone else > should behave. Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? > > I wonder how anyone can be so obtuse to the notion that other people exist > in different circumstances, make different valuations, have different > priorities and different techniques, than oneself. > Especially after repeatedly having the notion pointed out to one. In this case the OP has repeatedly said he wants to do his own repairs (on this, and on other machines). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 25 14:47:22 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:47:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <45E0C86E.10303.2E4748D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 7 11:21:18 pm Message-ID: > > > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... > > No, but it might be the easiest and cheapest way to go about getting > a bare-leads power cord. I've got tons and tons of IEC cables; they You mean you don't have a 'suicide lead' in your workshop? You know, a mains plug to 3 well-insulated crocodile clips... No, I am not advocating their use..... > just keep accumulating. On the other hand, I have relatively few > high-quality (e.g. neoprene jacket) leaded power cables and I reserve > those for permanent installations. > > But whacking the end off of an iEC cable for a jury rig? Sure, I am not sure of the construction of the Pro PSU (I've not dug out one of my Pros to check). You want to bypass the mains filter (taking that out of the circuit altogether), but uyou want to keep the breaker in circuit. If the fiter is a can with a built-in IEC plug (so the normal power cable plugs into the filter can), then I'd disconnect the output side of the filter and, as you say, jury-rig a mains lead to the approriate connections. But if the filter can has wire connections on both the input and output sides, I'd probably disconnect it and then use wires to connect whatever was on the input side (IEC connector, breaker?) to whatever's on the otuput side (PSU PCB?). In which case I'd just grab some suitable wire off the reels. -tony From info at harrells.net Sun Feb 25 09:27:07 2007 From: info at harrells.net (info) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:27:07 -0500 Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <000c01c757fc$a5b339f0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF7E70.2040707@harrells.net> <000c01c757fc$a5b339f0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <45E1AACB.9070903@harrells.net> The Teac drive I'm trying to get working is a teac 55BR. I'm also trying to get a shugart 455 AA5 and 455 3AA working with a California Computer systems shugart incapable FDC. The CP/M computer with format but fails to read or write to the floppy afterward. My goal is to get a floppy exchange between my PC and CP/M machine. I'm formatting Single side Double Denisty and 512k sectors. I'm using 22disk on the dos side and do have a somewhat working solultion with a shugart 400 and a old 3 /1/2 and 5 /14 combo drive. I do now have the settings in 22 disk correct as it reads and write sometimes with errors between the two machines. I get sector not found errors when it does fail. Thanks > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 25 15:43:25 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:43:25 +0000 Subject: 'woz' IIGS approx value? Message-ID: Hi folks, Had a mail from someone wanting to know how much her 'Woz' GS is worth and does anyone want it? It apparently 'has everything' so I've asked her to define what that means, as 'everything' for the GS is quite a pile :) $50 - $150? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 25 15:54:07 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: 'woz' IIGS approx value? In-Reply-To: from Adrian Graham at "Feb 25, 7 09:43:25 pm" Message-ID: <200702252154.l1PLs7SZ018366@floodgap.com> > Had a mail from someone wanting to know how much her 'Woz' GS is worth and > does anyone want it? It apparently 'has everything' so I've asked her to > define what that means, as 'everything' for the GS is quite a pile :) > > $50 - $150? Hate to disappoint her but Woz IIgses are not very hard to find despite saying "Limited Edition" and because they are ROM 0, they are much less useful for GS/OS than a ROM 1 or 3. The worth of the unit would probably be determined by the peripherals. I have a "Woz IIgs" but it's actually a ROM 3 with a Woz top and an AE+ hard disk. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You've got to have a gimmick if your band sucks. -- Gary Giddens ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 25 15:54:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:54:27 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: <45E0C86E.10303.2E4748D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 7 11:21:18 pm, Message-ID: <45E19513.10369.603D52D@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2007 at 20:47, Tony Duell wrote: > You mean you don't have a 'suicide lead' in your workshop? You know, a > mains plug to 3 well-insulated crocodile clips... I did once and did entirely too much damage with it. I'll attach wire leads now and wire-nut them onto a leaded power cord. I'm just clumsy, particularly when I really need to sleep (which is getting to be more frequent as I age, it seems). > I am not sure of the construction of the Pro PSU (I've not dug out one of > my Pros to check). If I recall the OP correcltly, the only wire lead from the filter was a ground--the power-carrying leads terminated in spade lugs. A power cord with a couple of spade-lug quick-connects should do the job just fine. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 25 16:01:46 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:01:46 -0800 Subject: Teac 55 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <45E1AACB.9070903@harrells.net> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org>, <000c01c757fc$a5b339f0$2101a8c0@finans>, <45E1AACB.9070903@harrells.net> Message-ID: <45E196CA.20934.60A884C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2007 at 10:27, info wrote: > The Teac drive I'm trying to get working is a teac 55BR. I'm also trying > to get a shugart 455 AA5 and 455 3AA working with a California Computer > systems shugart incapable FDC. The CP/M computer with format but fails > to read or write to the floppy afterward. My goal is to get a floppy > exchange between my PC and CP/M machine. I'm formatting Single side > Double Denisty and 512k sectors. I'm using 22disk on the dos side and do > have a somewhat working solultion with a shugart 400 and a old 3 /1/2 > and 5 /14 combo drive. I do now have the settings in 22 disk correct as > it reads and write sometimes with errors between the two machines. I get > sector not found errors when it does fail. Thanks Well, the FD-55BR identifies a "360K" drive, but not much past that-- you should also have at least three numbers and then some letters after that. I'm guessing that your CCS probably requires you to strap the unit select to D0 for the first drive vice the PC "twisted cable" D1. I also suspect that the CCS needs DRIVE READY/ on pint 34 (another jumper). Since we don't know the rest of your drive model, we don't know if you have a head-load solenoid, or any of the other special features that Teac could pack a drive with. Here's a start for you: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/teac/FD55_Spec.pdf Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 25 16:21:23 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:21:23 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <45E19513.10369.603D52D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 25/2/07 21:54, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > If I recall the OP correcltly, the only wire lead from the filter was > a ground--the power-carrying leads terminated in spade lugs. A power > cord with a couple of spade-lug quick-connects should do the job just > fine. Correct. Must remember to take the machine into the workshop tomorrow! Oh, and Tony, you were the one who suggested the IEC lead in your first message :oD -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From Hollandia at ccountry.net Sun Feb 25 18:05:38 2007 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:05:38 -0800 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: <200702260005.l1Q05Yob021571@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> I have a Packard-Bell 486 machine on which I am installing a second hard drive. The machine has the Phoenix BIOS v1.01, and uses DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1. The "C" drive is an IBM hard drive with a capacity of 1215 MB. The Ontrack v7.09 Disk Manager software is installed on it to allow the use of a hard drive greater than ~528 MB. At present the jumpers on that drive are set to "cable select". The hard drive I am trying to fit to this machine as "D" is a Western Digital Caviar 14300. The Wester Digital Part Number is AC14300-00RTT1. The new drive has jumper settings for SLAVE, NASTER and SINGLE, but so far as I can tell, none for "cable select." At present, the BIOS does not recognize the existence of the new drive. My questions: 1) How do I set this new drive for "cable select"? 2) Will wrong BIOS settings caues the drive's existence to not be recognized? Thanks, Kurt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 25 18:06:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:06:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 25, 7 10:21:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 25/2/07 21:54, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > If I recall the OP correcltly, the only wire lead from the filter was > > a ground--the power-carrying leads terminated in spade lugs. A power > > cord with a couple of spade-lug quick-connects should do the job just > > fine. > > Correct. Must remember to take the machine into the workshop tomorrow! So, are you saying that the filter can has blade terminals for the live and neutral inputs/outputs? If so, I've been known to use a couple of strips of metal, well-insulated, of course, to bypass such things. Another idea (if your junk box is anything like mine) is to use a double-pole switch with spade temrals, set to the 'on' postion, as a jumper. Just make sure it can't short to anything else. My concern is that you don't want to bypass the internal circuit breaker, just in case there's a fault that should trip it. > > Oh, and Tony, you were the one who suggested the IEC lead in your first > message :oD Oh, I probalby did, but remember I've not seen inside this PSU for a long time... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 25 18:20:45 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:20:45 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: Message-ID: <45E227DE.2430168@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Is this docuemtned anywhere? I can't see it in the 9872 operating/service > manual, but as I said I've not seen the 98130 (9815 plotter interface) > manual. Not that I have seen. Tony Duell wrote: > HPIB-style, but not HPIB!. It may use the HPIB lavels, it may use the > same 3 wire handshake, but it's not HPIB if it changes direction like > that without any commands fromt he controller. That's what confused me. > You kept on insisting it was HPIB, I still claim that, strictly, it can't be. Brent wrote: plotter HP-IB port that does just the data transfer (minus all the HP-IB device selection, etc. functions) Brent wrote: the 8 HPIB data lines and 3 data-handshake lines are brought across to the controlling machine. It's HPIB minus everything but the data-transfer. Brent wrote: plotter microproc is distinguishing 9815 vs HPIB and acting appropriately. Brent wrote: un-addressed talk/listen HPIB-style data transfer. I never suggested it was HPIB in any sort of strict or complete sense. I said it did not include the device addressing, which precludes direction selection via device addressing. I never even raised the issue of direction selection, you did, but as a declaration not a question. All I said was HPIB data *transfer*. Tony Duell wrote: >I know what you've said, but _I_ have a problem with it. >What you're describing is, I beleive, technically impossible. Apparently if one comes to a conclusion before you, it's technically impossible. When you come to the same conclusion a few sentences later it's a brilliant deduction worthy of elaborate explanation. I originally asked for HPGL plotter files. You just had to weigh in with your (unsolicited) expert opinion about the interface. I kept indicating it didn't seem like a big issue of complexity or concern. If you were confused or wondering how I thought it worked you should have asked a question. Instead you kept making declarative statements, many of which strayed well away from anything I had expressed any concern over. It was all about Tony's expert opinion and advice. Get over yourself. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 25 18:23:03 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:23:03 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) References: Message-ID: <45E22868.546ED396@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > > > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > > > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... > > > > Once again Tony weighs in with his estimable opinion of how everyone else > > should behave. > > Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? If you would spend a brief moment actually considering what someone else says you might notice I used the word in the next sentence, so it would be a pretty reasonable inference it does. > > I wonder how anyone can be so obtuse to the notion that other people exist > > in different circumstances, make different valuations, have different > > priorities and different techniques, than oneself. > > Especially after repeatedly having the notion pointed out to one. > > In this case the OP has repeatedly said he wants to do his own repairs > (on this, and on other machines). Read your own words: "anyone on this list". Regardless if the OP has repeatedly said as you say, he can still make his own decisions as appropriate to his circumstances about where to get some bits of wire. Tony Duell wrote: >How many tims do I have to repeat 'Never switch on a classic computer >without doing some PSU tests first' ? He might also be permitted to make his own decisions about whether or not to plug in a machine without having to put up with the all-wise Tony Duell coming by to slap his wrist and chastise him as one would a little child for not doing as Tony has repeatedly said. You still just don't get it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 25 18:36:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <45E22868.546ED396@cs.ubc.ca> References: <45E22868.546ED396@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20070225163226.I50308@shell.lmi.net> > I am wondering how anyone on this list can exist without assort > colours/sizes of wire, and standard 'loose' cable around them. You > shouldn't have to cut up an IEC lead to get some wire... "Here is my intergalactic spaceship. And, let me show you some of the lengths of wire that I used in it." - Prof. Hughbert Farnsworth 3000 I, also, find it hard to comprehend how anybody could not have a pile of junk. But, there ARE people who manage to function without it! I just don't understand HOW. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 25 18:37:39 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:37:39 -0700 Subject: Solder & Flux Questions In-Reply-To: <24096419.1172437454484.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24096419.1172437454484.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <45E22BD3.5050906@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions? I wonder if the lead-free stuff has a higher > melting temperature? BTW, I'm using a WTCPT soldering station. > > Any tips would be appreciated. Read the package ... the lead free stuff I use is for audio work -- point to point soldering , no PCB's -- melts at 430F. It is a great solder but I don't expect this to be what you are looking for. > Thank you, > Robert Greenstreet > From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 25 18:57:49 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:57:49 -0900 Subject: Bare Bones Kit? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070218142207.02043da8@pop.1and1.com> I have had a few people comment on the price of the Altair Kit. Currently it takes a LOT of time to prepare a kit because of the amount of small parts involved. (resistors, capacitors, IC sockets). I am considering a kit that contains only custom parts and parts that get a big benefit from quantity orders. For example, I would ONLY include the case, power supplies, PCBs, ICs, switches, wire, and fasteners. I would provide a BOM with parts, quantity, and DigiKey part numbers (for the exact parts I would have bought) Making this change reduces the number of parts in the kit from 820 to 124. :) The overall price would go down because of the parts not included, and even more for handling. I want to price it so I don't loose money, but also make it available to more people. What is the price threshold you would have on buying one of these things? Grant From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 25 19:02:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:02:01 -0800 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar In-Reply-To: <200702260005.l1Q05Yob021571@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200702260005.l1Q05Yob021571@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <45E1C109.17821.6AF8FBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2007 at 16:05, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > The new drive has jumper settings for SLAVE, NASTER and SINGLE, but so far > as I can tell, none for "cable select." The drive is a 6-pin jumper block drive. For CS, jumper pins 1&2 of J8; leave other jumpers off. > 1) How do I set this new drive for "cable select"? > 2) Will wrong BIOS settings caues the drive's existence to not be recognized? Not usually--the drive should at least be able to identify itself to the BIOS. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 25 19:07:21 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:07:21 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E232C9.8060903@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> The MDA port can also be reconfigured as bidirectional, but IIRC, >> it's a cut trace and a jumper. I did that with one and ran it until > > Sure. As can a lot of the clone printer cards. The mod is to disconnect > the OE/ pin of the data latch ('374) from ground and to connect it to the > bit 5 (?) output of the control port (nearly always a '174, and nearly > always the input of this section is already wired to the D5 line from the > ISA bus). And the modification works on PCjr parallel printer sidecars too: http://www.brutman.com/PCjr/parallel_port.html Mike From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Feb 25 19:18:31 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:18:31 -0600 Subject: 8-bit WD IDE adapter + CF? Message-ID: <45E23567.1030408@mdrconsult.com> The penny finally dropped. A few days ago someone mentioned that a CF-IDE adapter worked with an 8-bit controller. I think. Something about compact flash and 8-bit anyway. Does that mean I can replace the dead IDE drive on a WDAT-140 or -150controller with compact flash? Doc From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Sun Feb 25 20:06:28 2007 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:06:28 EST Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: Hi why don't you set the C: drive to Master and the D: drive to Slave. Al DePermentier From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 20:40:01 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:40:01 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: old rare diskdrives? (Rejected E-Mail to "MC=?iso-8859-15?Q?SELE"_at_Ni In-Reply-To: <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net> References: <1677927075@web.de> <20070223151351.C59387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E24881.2010902@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 ebubekr at web.de wrote: >> hi guys, >> I am searching after a old (very old) harddisk drive and want to ask do >> you have any? or any ideas where can I get that? > > Your first step should be to state what you want. > > Different people have different meanings for "old (very old)". > To some people, that means an IDE drive that is less than 1GB. > To some people, that means any MFM drive, such as ST4096. > To some people, that means 24 inch platters. To some it means magnetic drums. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 20:54:32 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:54:32 -0500 Subject: Long-term storage (Was: Re: Google on hard drive failures) In-Reply-To: <45DF5C3B.19057.314E6A23@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45DF5C3B.19057.314E6A23@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45E24BE8.6010803@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Feb 2007 at 22:30, Mark Tapley wrote: > > >> Try the Voyager record. *That* puppy is going to be around >> (somewhere) for some serious millenia. Or the CD taped to the New >> Horizons Spacecraft, seen below in on-topic format :-). > > I wonder how much damage micrometeorites will do after a few > millenia? Or radiation. Peace... Sridhar From onymouse at garlic.com Sun Feb 25 13:39:51 2007 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:39:51 -0800 Subject: Kennedy to PC interface... In-Reply-To: <45D9AEF0.2010703@garlic.com> References: <45D7A607.6080705@garlic.com> <1e1fc3e90702180711x6229bf3dq824042877744395b@mail.gmail.com> <45D8FFEA.9040700@garlic.com> <45D9AEF0.2010703@garlic.com> Message-ID: <45E1E607.10308@garlic.com> jd wrote: > > I think I have the CS/80 manual part number somewhere. > ...just have to figure out which terabyte of data it's in... > Found it: 5955-3442--what a coincidence; it's on bitsavers! (Wow... whodathunk.) Thanks anonymous-whoever-posted-it-person. My life is now complete. (^_^) O... Wait. Theres' more stuff to do... Nevermind. -- jd There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 21:06:49 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:06:49 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <45E1732E.1020507@gjcp.net> References: <45E1732E.1020507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702251906n7abd22eq90fc7d873579df27@mail.gmail.com> On 2/25/07, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > As someone who has never played with much old HP kit, I find myself > having to ask: > > What exactly does this plug do? > > Gordon > Here's the basic story. I don't have the exact details without checking the manuals and schematics. The power supplies on HP-1000 E/F systems had a battery backup option. When installed an external battery box would be connected. The power supply would charge the batteries when AC was present and could run off the batteries when AC was lost. To make sure the batteries didn't overheat while being charged there was a thermister in the battery box which would shut down the power supply when the thermister got too hot and its R value got too high. If the power supply has the battery backup option installed but the battery box and its thermister is not connected the power supply will not power up all of the way. The eliminator plug simply has the right R value to make the power supply think the battery box is connected and not overheated so the power supply powers up all of the way. I believe the main supply rails all come up ok without the plug and if you didn't know better you would think the CPU should be working, but I think the firmware stays stuck in a halted state waiting for a power good signal, or something like that. If you're new to HP 1000 CPUs and you hit this you'll waste a lot of time trying to figure it out. If the battery backup option is installed in the power supply you cannot easily remove it. A jumper board in the power supply is replaced with a different board (either an inverter board or charger board, I believe), and if you remove the battery backup option boards you won't have a jumper board to put back in place and the supply will not work without it. -Glen From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 25 21:46:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:46:40 -0600 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found References: <45E1732E.1020507@gjcp.net> <1e1fc3e90702251906n7abd22eq90fc7d873579df27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d901c75958$b9978ea0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gordon wrote... >> What exactly does this plug do? To which Glen replied... > Here's the basic story. ... Yup, the plug goes to the back of the cpu to make a battery-optioned system think a battery is attached. All just as Glen said. However, the same type of plugs & sockets on the back are also used to daisychain power signals from cpu to memory expansion box and/or i/o expansion box. This is so if you turn on the cpu, the memory and I/O backplane expansion boxes power up as well. Few people have the mem or I/O expansion box in play, most don't have it or don't need it. The real reason the connectors have been sought is to build these "battery eliminator plugs". Sure, you can just stuff a resistor across the right two holes in the connector. Or you can solder the connector inside the power supply. I don't like either option, I'm to much of a purist about having the original stuff operational "as it was". HP actually did sell the battery eliminator plugs for use when the battery backup wasn't connected. I just wanted more of them :D Jay From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 22:02:23 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:02:23 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <00d901c75958$b9978ea0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45E1732E.1020507@gjcp.net> <1e1fc3e90702251906n7abd22eq90fc7d873579df27@mail.gmail.com> <00d901c75958$b9978ea0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702252002h7c9c99f0ta2de36cf018959f7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/25/07, Jay West wrote: > > However, the same type of plugs & sockets on the back are also used to > daisychain power signals from cpu to memory expansion box and/or i/o > expansion box. This is so if you turn on the cpu, the memory and I/O > backplane expansion boxes power up as well. > Good point. For example if you have an HP 1000 2117F and the companion external FPP box you normally connect them together with cable that plugs into the same type of connector as the battery box connector. Again I would need to check the manuals and schematics to be sure, but I believe this cable keeps the CPU from starting until the FPP box signals its power good signal. Anyway, if someone has something like a 2117F and the FPP box they might also want some of these connectors to build a proper interconnect cable. I think someone on the list recently got a 2117F and FPP box from eBay. It might have come with the ribbon cables to connect the boxes, but maybe not the power in/out interconnect cable. -Glen From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 22:51:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:51:36 -0500 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> References: <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <45E26758.8020905@gmail.com> Geoff Reed wrote: > CONTACT Ebays fraud department, and forward them copies of the message that > she stated that she received your payment. More than that, do what the previous buyer did. Initiate a mail-fraud complaint. That's a federal offense. I'd even go the whole way with it. She probably wouldn't be able to do it again if she were sitting in the federal pokey. Peace... Sridhar > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Vassilis PREVELAKIS > Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:52 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) > > > Anybody done business with eBay seller Alexandra Carter (alexandracarter)? > > She used a very neat trick on me. > > I bought an HP 5036A Microprocessor Lab 8-Bit Computer from her > (eBay 160080545681) and paid for it with a money order which was > received on Feb. 3, 2006 (USPS tracking number 0103 8555 7499 5332 > 2386). > > She then claimed to have sent the HP 5036A via USPS but has not > produced a tracking number despite the fact that I specifically had > asked for one. > > Anyway, when I pressured her about the item, she filled a non-payment > dispute against me, to prevent me from posting negative feedback > on her. > > This is despite the fact that on Feb 9, she sent me an eBay message > (sitting in my eBay messages folder) confirming receipt of payment. > > I have been told that she has pulled this stunt before on another > buyer and only delivered the goods when he threatened filing a > USPS mail fraud complaint. > > So watch out for Alexandra Carter despite her 98.6% feedback rating. > > **vp > > > > From grant at stockly.com Sun Feb 25 23:00:06 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:00:06 -0900 Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (eBay seller) In-Reply-To: <45E26758.8020905@gmail.com> References: <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> <200702241351.l1ODpwvQ029697@dune.cs.drexel.edu> <1d3c01c75867$16e06930$0701a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20070225195804.023671c8@pop.1and1.com> At 07:51 PM 2/25/2007, you wrote: >Geoff Reed wrote: >>CONTACT Ebays fraud department, and forward them copies of the message that >>she stated that she received your payment. > >More than that, do what the previous buyer did. Initiate a mail-fraud >complaint. That's a federal offense. I'd even go the whole way with >it. She probably wouldn't be able to do it again if she were sitting in >the federal pokey. For small claims nothing serious is done. However for all claims they send out a scary sounding form letter with the complaint. This is enough to settle most situations. :) I've bought from this seller and it was the opposite. I actually went on a week long work trip after forgetting to pay her for a few days before. She was very understanding! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 25 23:51:37 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:51:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bare Bones Kit? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20070218142207.02043da8@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20070218142207.02043da8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, Grant Stockly wrote: > I have had a few people comment on the price of the Altair Kit. Currently > it takes a LOT of time to prepare a kit because of the amount of small > parts involved. (resistors, capacitors, IC sockets). > > I am considering a kit that contains only custom parts and parts that get a > big benefit from quantity orders. For example, I would ONLY include the > case, power supplies, PCBs, ICs, switches, wire, and fasteners. > > I would provide a BOM with parts, quantity, and DigiKey part numbers (for > the exact parts I would have bought) > > Making this change reduces the number of parts in the kit from 820 to 124. :) > > The overall price would go down because of the parts not included, and even > more for handling. > > I want to price it so I don't loose money, but also make it available to > more people. What is the price threshold you would have on buying one of > these things? I sympathize with you on the parts thing. I'd be willing to buy such a kit. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Hollandia at ccountry.net Mon Feb 26 00:28:26 2007 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:28:26 -0800 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: <200702260628.l1Q6SOoZ011678@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Mr. DePermentier, I apologize for not mentioning this originally. The only jumper settings possible on the "C" drive are Device 0, Device 1 and Cable Select. Sorry for the omission. Kurt >Hi why don't you set the C: drive to Master and the D: drive to Slave. > >Al DePermentier > > From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 26 00:29:49 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:29:49 -0500 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: <01C75945.BB19E380@mse-d03> ------------Original Messages: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:02:01 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <45E1C109.17821.6AF8FBA at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 25 Feb 2007 at 16:05, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > The new drive has jumper settings for SLAVE, NASTER and SINGLE, but so far > as I can tell, none for "cable select." The drive is a 6-pin jumper block drive. For CS, jumper pins 1&2 of J8; leave other jumpers off. > 1) How do I set this new drive for "cable select"? > 2) Will wrong BIOS settings caues the drive's existence to not be recognized? Not usually--the drive should at least be able to identify itself to the BIOS. Cheers, Chuck -----------------Reply: 1) Actually, according to WD it's a 10-pin drive, but CS is still pins 1&2. However, I doubt that an old 486 would recognize CS, even with an 80-conductor cable; the existing one probably works because it's treated as a master with a 40-conductor cable. My suggestions: If there is a second (unused) IDE port, set the second drive as single master (no jumpers or 4&6) and plug it into the second port. If not, change the existing drive to dual master (pins 5&6) and set the second drive to dual slave (3&4). 2) Unlikely, but possibly, especially since AFAIK that BIOS does not have an auto-detect option; in any case, if the BIOS is set incorrectly you will almost certainly have trouble when you start using that drive. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 26 00:36:36 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:36:36 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 73 Message-ID: <01C75946.A8D89EE0@mse-d03> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:42:15 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) >Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? Who is this oyu? I can't speak for him/her/it, but not to me. Or is this Zen or some deep philosophical question for us to ponder? m From vp at drexel.edu Mon Feb 26 00:36:13 2007 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:36:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) Message-ID: <200702260636.l1Q6aD04018255@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Regardless if the OP has repeatedly said as you say [...] > > He might also be permitted to make his own decisions [...] Oh, give it a rest **vp From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 01:02:08 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:02:08 -0800 Subject: HP battery eliminator connectors - found In-Reply-To: <00d901c75958$b9978ea0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: >From: "Jay West" > >Gordon wrote... >>>What exactly does this plug do? > >To which Glen replied... >>Here's the basic story. ... > >Yup, the plug goes to the back of the cpu to make a battery-optioned system >think a battery is attached. All just as Glen said. > >However, the same type of plugs & sockets on the back are also used to >daisychain power signals from cpu to memory expansion box and/or i/o >expansion box. This is so if you turn on the cpu, the memory and I/O >backplane expansion boxes power up as well. > >Few people have the mem or I/O expansion box in play, most don't have it or >don't need it. The real reason the connectors have been sought is to build >these "battery eliminator plugs". Sure, you can just stuff a resistor >across the right two holes in the connector. Or you can solder the >connector inside the power supply. I don't like either option, I'm to much >of a purist about having the original stuff operational "as it was". > >HP actually did sell the battery eliminator plugs for use when the battery >backup wasn't connected. I just wanted more of them :D > >Jay > Hi Of course, one could also make up a battery pack and be completely compatable. Looking at the specs, that would be a little tough. As I recall, it would take 4 lead acid cells( 6 volt batteries have only three ). It would require getting single cells to build up the needed number of cells that matched. I do know what you mean about keeping it original if possible. That is why I wouldn't take my own suggestion. I often wondered if these machines actually had battery boxes connected to them when they were in use or if they had the official connector and someone stripped it off and lost it. Dwight Dwight _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 01:09:40 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:09:40 -0800 Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702250619.l1P6J9cN016102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >From: Cameron Kaiser > > > My personal candidate for this thread is the 1981 Soviet M-13 > > supercomputer, which I only recently discovered: > > > > http://sovietcomputing.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=254 > >Never trust a computer you can't lift. > Hi I'm told that a fellow named Dave Boulton was first to use this phrase. If you'd seen him, he was quite large and could lift many mini's of good size. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Refi Now: Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-17727&moid=7581 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 26 01:53:09 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:53:09 -0500 Subject: 8-bit WD IDE adapter + CF? In-Reply-To: <45E23567.1030408@mdrconsult.com> References: <45E23567.1030408@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <60BE1D46-D800-4A09-AC29-AC6353A59943@neurotica.com> On Feb 25, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > The penny finally dropped. > > A few days ago someone mentioned that a CF-IDE adapter worked > with an 8-bit controller. I think. Something about compact flash > and 8-bit anyway. The CF standard, if I recall correctly, requires that CF cards implement the 8-bit transfer mode that many (most?) IDE hard drives now lack. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Mon Feb 26 06:20:28 2007 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:20:28 EST Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: Kurt, in most cases Device 0 is C drive and Device 1 is drive D, it can't hurt to try. Al DePermentier From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Feb 26 07:33:08 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:33:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Ebay member In-Reply-To: <45DED19E.21663.2F30FC95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <001a01c75772$de510b50$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <008701c75776$b5b4a220$6600a8c0@BILLING> <45DED19E.21663.2F30FC95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: If Ebay member 'bobar' is on this list, would you contact me privately? Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 26 09:53:33 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:53:33 -0500 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar In-Reply-To: <01C75945.BB19E380@mse-d03> References: <01C75945.BB19E380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200702261053.33867.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 26 February 2007 01:29, M H Stein wrote: > 1) Actually, according to WD it's a 10-pin drive, but CS is still pins > 1&2. However, I doubt that an old 486 would recognize CS, even with an > 80-conductor cable; the existing one probably works because it's > treated as a master with a 40-conductor cable. The host has nothing to do with cable select working. It only really depends on the drive and the cable. That's why it's called "cable select" and not "host select". One drive gets set to master, and the other to slave, based on their cable position. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kth at srv.net Mon Feb 26 10:06:19 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:06:19 -0700 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <200702232029.PAA09069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <200702232029.PAA09069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45E3057B.1090203@srv.net> der Mouse wrote: > > Certainly. And forget centrues; try millennia. The Pyramids. The > Sphinx. Stonehenge. The French cave paintings. Old Greek and Roman > coins from archaeological digs. > However, since the formatting information on the cave paintings has been lost, all we can say is "that *looks* like a horse, but why is he ...". We are also mostly guessing on the others, too. At least the Egyptians left us the Rosetta Stone, which gave us a chance at breaking the format. Maybe, sometime in the distant future, people will look at our stuff and say, "that must have been built by aliens". > Of course, they're not much good for backups (which is where this > started), unless you have *really* small amounts of data to back up, > but yes, we as a species can create artifacts that last many centuries; > we know this because we have artifacts that have already lasted many > centuries. > From kth at srv.net Mon Feb 26 10:30:53 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:30:53 -0700 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <002101c757b2$6a8c18f0$0100000a@pentium> <45DF2E0E.11484.309A0C98@cclist.sydex.com> <006301c757c0$ce77e610$0100000a@pentium> <20070223192225.Q71680@shell.lmi.net> <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45E30B3D.90208@srv.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Try masking off pin 34. > > Why would that make a difference, if Chuck does the former routinely? > What does pin 34 do? Could his problem be with the fact that all modern floppy drives are hard-set as the 'B' drive, and his machine is looking for an "A" drive? I remember seeing some "PC like" machines that were not wired for 'B'. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 11:08:48 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:08:48 -0800 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar In-Reply-To: <01C75945.BB19E380@mse-d03> References: <01C75945.BB19E380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <45E2A3A0.1495.A24AF2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 1:29, M H Stein wrote: > 1) Actually, according to WD it's a 10-pin drive, but CS is still pins 1&2. > However, I doubt that an old 486 would recognize CS, even with an > 80-conductor cable; the existing one probably works because it's treated > as a master with a 40-conductor cable. My mistake--I went to my pile of old drives and grabbed a 31200, which is a 6-pin drive. Cable select's pretty old--I assumed the OP knew what he was talking about and went with it. I don't know what the OP's machine was using for a controller (i.e. on-board, or add-on PCI or ISA, EISA or VLB-- they all existed for 486 machines). I probably have an old Mobo with the Phoenix 1.01 BIOS on it around here; but I don't remember if it had an "IDE drive identify" utility on it. Sorry for the misleading. I was one tired puppy last night. About the only thing I can add is that look out for running older IDE and newer IDE drives on the same cable. They don't always like each other. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 11:17:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:17:52 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E30B3D.90208@srv.net> References: <45DF5BA5.5030704@bitsavers.org>, <45DFE63A.7080000@oldskool.org>, <45E30B3D.90208@srv.net> Message-ID: <45E2A5C0.6635.A2CFAB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 9:30, Kevin Handy wrote: > Could his problem be with the fact that all modern floppy > drives are hard-set as the 'B' drive, and his machine is > looking for an "A" drive? I remember seeing some "PC like" > machines that were not wired for 'B'. ...and there were some old controllers that could support up to 4 drives on the same cable (e.g. DTC) with the right jumpering and cable. If the 3.5" drive is hard-set for DS1, one can either change that on the drive PCB ("hard select is usually done with a 0- ohm resistor and can be changed) or the cable can be changed (easiest). When it comes to playing with 3.5" drives on older machines, I have a cable adapter PCB that brings the most common changes out onto separate jumpers so I can tinker with them without having to rejumper the drive. Since I've never played with a PC5, it's hard to say what's going on. Fred's idea of seeing if the LED comes on is good. I'd add that one should also check to see if the spindle's also turning. Cheers, Chuck From kth at srv.net Mon Feb 26 11:21:32 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:21:32 -0700 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E3171C.8030403@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Problem is, all the GW Basic sources I've found for term progs are simply >> for text-based terms only, there are none around with simple transfer >> abilities (ie XModem or Kermit). >> > > It's been some time since I looked at this, but I thought there was a > receive-only version of Kermit written in BASIC (printed in the 'Kermit > book' if nowhere else). The idea was you typed it in and used it to > transfer the full kermit onto the target machine. > Best to go to the source: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/mskermit.html Go to the bottom of that page, under "also see", and then look at the link ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/a/tcomtxt.asm There used to be a lot of ways to get kermit on a new machine. If you download a version of mskermit, the info might still be there in one of the documents. From kth at srv.net Mon Feb 26 11:37:22 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:37:22 -0700 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E31AD2.9030905@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? None to me. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 26 11:38:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:38:32 -0600 Subject: Long-term storage (Was: Re: Google on hard drive failures) In-Reply-To: <45E24BE8.6010803@gmail.com> References: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45DF5C3B.19057.314E6A23@cclist.sydex.com> <45E24BE8.6010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45E31B18.7070201@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 23 Feb 2007 at 22:30, Mark Tapley wrote: >> >> >>> Try the Voyager record. *That* puppy is going to be around >>> (somewhere) for some serious millenia. Or the CD taped to the New >>> Horizons Spacecraft, seen below in on-topic format :-). >> >> I wonder how much damage micrometeorites will do after a few millenia? > > Or radiation. Or aliens. If aliens do exist, it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of them will break the darn thing in the process of trying to read and understand it. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Feb 26 11:51:10 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:51:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <45E3057B.1090203@srv.net> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org> <45DF4367.4030505@yahoo.co.uk> <200702232029.PAA09069@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <45E3057B.1090203@srv.net> Message-ID: <200702261758.MAA11380@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > At least the Egyptians left us the Rosetta Stone, which gave us a > chance at breaking the format. Only because we hadn't lost one of its other languages. See the Rosetta Stone in the Codex Seraphinianus. But see also The Decipherment Of Linear B; we don't _always_ need a Rosetta Stone to suss out a lost language - while admittedly that case was a known language in an unfamiliar writing system, it was mostly deciphered before this was realized. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Feb 26 12:04:15 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:04:15 -0800 Subject: 'woz' IIGS approx value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With monitor, a couple floppy drives (a 3.5 and a 5.25), keyboard and mouse, and a meg of RAM perhaps $25. More RAM will bring a bit more. Whether it would higher than that depends heavily on what is inside it. Some sought after items: Processor accelerators are worth up to a couple hundred bucks. (Transwarp GS, Zip Chip, Rocket Chip) A SecondSight VGA card would also bring a couple hundred. A PC Transporter (8086 coprocessor) with TransDrive (for reading IBM-PC floppies) might be worth about $75. It's been a while since I checked. A SCSI card might add another $10 to $50 depending upon model and vintage. Newer is actually better for SCSI cards, since you are more likely to find a drive that will work with it without too much problem. All of these things require the accompanying software to reach full value. Eric On 2/25/07, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Had a mail from someone wanting to know how much her 'Woz' GS is worth and > does anyone want it? It apparently 'has everything' so I've asked her to > define what that means, as 'everything' for the GS is quite a pile :) > > $50 - $150? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Feb 26 12:04:15 2007 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:04:15 -0800 Subject: 'woz' IIGS approx value? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With monitor, a couple floppy drives (a 3.5 and a 5.25), keyboard and mouse, and a meg of RAM perhaps $25. More RAM will bring a bit more. Whether it would higher than that depends heavily on what is inside it. Some sought after items: Processor accelerators are worth up to a couple hundred bucks. (Transwarp GS, Zip Chip, Rocket Chip) A SecondSight VGA card would also bring a couple hundred. A PC Transporter (8086 coprocessor) with TransDrive (for reading IBM-PC floppies) might be worth about $75. It's been a while since I checked. A SCSI card might add another $10 to $50 depending upon model and vintage. Newer is actually better for SCSI cards, since you are more likely to find a drive that will work with it without too much problem. All of these things require the accompanying software to reach full value. Eric On 2/25/07, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Had a mail from someone wanting to know how much her 'Woz' GS is worth and > does anyone want it? It apparently 'has everything' so I've asked her to > define what that means, as 'everything' for the GS is quite a pile :) > > $50 - $150? > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Feb 26 12:26:32 2007 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:26:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: 'woz' IIGS approx value? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070226182632.A62485826B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Eric J Korpela > > With monitor, a couple floppy drives (a 3.5 and a 5.25), keyboard and > mouse, and a meg of RAM perhaps $25. More RAM will bring a bit more. > Whether it would higher than that depends heavily on what is inside > it. Some sought after items: > Eric, If you send a message to cctech, there is no need to CC: cctalk because cctech messages automatically go to cctalk, but not the other way around. Cheers, Bryan From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 26 12:18:45 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:18:45 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Selling my VAX, Alpha, PDP-11 and other s Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:55:52 +0900 Groups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp11 From: Tim Sneddon Subject: Selling my VAX, Alpha, PDP-11 and other spares (was Re: Selling my PDP-11/83 and various spares...) Re: <45d4fdf3$0$16270$88260bb3 at free.teranews.com> Id: <45e20788$0$16343$88260bb3 at free.teranews.com> ======== All, Most of my PDP-11 stuff has been sold. However, I do have a collection of Q-BUS VAX spares, some Alpha bits, SCSI stuff. some more PDP-11 stuff I didn't even no I had, a few manuals and some other bits and pieces. I won't be listing any of this stuff past this coming weekend as I will no longer have any storage and all this stuff will be going in the bin. I will be listing quite a lot of the items mentioned above over the next two days. http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZtesneddonQQhtZ-1 Regards, Tim. PS. Once again, apologies for cross posting. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Feb 26 13:02:10 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:02:10 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <200702261806.l1QI4q6O005195@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200702261806.l1QI4q6O005195@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <71D2F35B-0527-4386-BC49-01CB82EDB4E7@microspot.co.uk> > Tony Duell wrote: >> Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? > None to me. > Nor for me. Does the word milliard mean anything to you? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 13:28:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:28:05 -0800 Subject: Google on hard drive failures In-Reply-To: <200702261758.MAA11380@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <45DF3D73.7020905@bitsavers.org>, <45E3057B.1090203@srv.net>, <200702261758.MAA11380@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45E2C445.5342.AA4339D@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 12:51, der Mouse wrote: > But see also The Decipherment Of Linear B; we don't _always_ need a > Rosetta Stone to suss out a lost language - while admittedly that case > was a known language in an unfamiliar writing system, it was mostly > deciphered before this was realized. ...and it took a very long time to get to that point--about 50 years, I think. But some alien civilization not even familiar with any of our languages would be at a distinct disadvantage. At least the decipherers of Linear B determined it was Greek (Mycenaean) a known language. One wonders, for example, what an ancient Greek would make of a modern Korean engineering text. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 13:31:33 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:31:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Off-topic but still *not* funny. In-Reply-To: <200702240152.l1O1qW5l033543@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <531693.17739.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Bradlee wrote: > >How is that funny? What a waste of bandwidth... > > Ignoreing content, this was not a great wast of > bandwidth. > > The message that started this was only 120 bytes of > text encased in a 3.7k email, including headers, by > the time > it got to me. From my viewpoint at least it had a > tinyurl and not a 3 line url, and was easily > ignored. > > Not including this minor rant, there have been no > less than 5 messages about the OT content of those > 130 > charettors totaling close to 19.5k of email. > To put this back on topic, these messages including > headers representing more total storage than was > available > on my first two computers (the first one SDK80 only > had 2k) and my second an EVK300 only had 16k. What > we > are talking about here is equal to about 1 second of > a single stream of talk radio on my audio server. Wow. Radios talk nowadays? What a concept LOL > Now if you > want to talk about a huge waste of bandwidth .... Dude...tell me about it. Icarumba! LOL LOL LOL > So much in life needs to be ignored, why not start > here ? YEAH MAYBE WE SHOOD'VE STARTED BEFORE WE ALL READ THIS!! OMG OMG LOL LOL LOL OMG > Vote with your delete key not reply all. > Sorry Jay, Just venting .... Back under my rock > The other Bob And stay there BOB! LOL LOL *kidding but of course* ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 13:42:11 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy Diskette Interface Signals & Timing In-Reply-To: <20070225021858.A892C27404@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <42501.20229.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- river wrote: > Hi, Yo > I've been trying to find (on the net) information > regarding the signal > timing for the 3.5inch floppy diskette drive. An Intel data book might help. The 8272 is the functional equivalent of the NEC u765 floppy disk controller. Another variant is the Rockwell 6765. > I want to play around with one and connect it to one > of my home-brewed > systems (6502 or 8085), but I need to know the > timing of the signals, plus > what the different logic levels means on some > signals, etc. I can get plenty > of information regarding the 34-pin connector and > signal names, but nothing > on timing and logic levels. Perhaps it wouldn't be the worst idea to mimic that portion of some *other* board or puter that controls a floppy. Sort of cut and paste? Then there's the code part... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 13:44:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702250619.l1P6J9cN016102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <541031.19325.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> > Never trust a computer you can't lift. I'll say. That thing is skeery looking besides. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 26 14:03:57 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:03:57 -0500 Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702250619.l1P6J9cN016102@floodgap.com> References: <200702250619.l1P6J9cN016102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200702261503.57344.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 25 February 2007 01:19, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > My personal candidate for this thread is the 1981 Soviet M-13 > > supercomputer, which I only recently discovered: > > > > http://sovietcomputing.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=254 > > Never trust a computer you can't lift. I'd prefer to say "never trust a computer that you CAN lift." :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 14:16:38 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:16:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <609961.79560.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> >Fred Cisin >to General >Try masking off pin 34. By masking off you simply mean disconnecting, correct? It's not that I don't know, I'm merely testing you. >Now this is going to sound very vague, but perhaps >it'll jog someone else's >memory. Once upon a time, it was possible to buy a >>serial file transfer >package that supported transfer to/from MS-DOS >machines with no removable >media, e.g. machines with dead floppy drives, so long >as they were able to >load MS-DOS or similar in some way. The process went >something like this: >1. Make sure the two machines have compatible RS232 >settings. >2. Connect the two machines with a null-modem cable. >3. On the driveless machine ('client'), type a short >command that >effectively mapped the serial port to the console. >4. On the 'server' machine, run the transfer software, >selecting the option >that sends the software to the client machine. The >server would then upload >and start the client software - instant networking. Sort of sounds like the utility that came with the Zenith Minisport. The firmware had the ability to "take over" the command prompt of the computer it was attached to. Different now that I'm looking at it again, but the intention was the same, due to the fact that the MS came with a 2.5" floppy drive, and warez were never supplied on that medium. ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 26 14:03:19 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:03:19 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26/2/07 00:06, "Tony Duell" wrote: > So, are you saying that the filter can has blade terminals for the live > and neutral inputs/outputs? It does, and it did. Today I crimped some spades onto an IEC cable, strapped the earth to the PSU case and it ran happily all afternoon. As luck would have it I found a mains receptacle in the spares bins that also had spades as outputs so the can is out and the new receptacle is in. With a sheet metal plate as a cover over the remaining hole it's business as usual :) You can't tell it's new stuff. > My concern is that you don't want to bypass the internal circuit breaker, > just in case there's a fault that should trip it. Correct, and I didn't have to......marvellous. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 14:26:54 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:26:54 -0500 Subject: arty computers In-Reply-To: <200702261503.57344.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200702250619.l1P6J9cN016102@floodgap.com> <200702261503.57344.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45E3428E.3000503@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 25 February 2007 01:19, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> My personal candidate for this thread is the 1981 Soviet M-13 >>> supercomputer, which I only recently discovered: >>> >>> http://sovietcomputing.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=254 >> Never trust a computer you can't lift. > > I'd prefer to say "never trust a computer that you CAN lift." :) Never trust a computer that weighs less than your car? Peace... Sridhar From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Feb 26 14:40:51 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:40:51 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <609961.79560.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: > >Fred Cisin > >to General > > >Try masking off pin 34. > > By masking off you simply mean disconnecting, >correct? It's not that I don't know, I'm merely >testing you. Methinks Fred has forgotten more about floppy drives than you could ever learn... ;-) > Sort of sounds like the utility that came with the >Zenith Minisport. The firmware had the ability to >"take over" the command prompt of the computer it was >attached to. Different now that I'm looking at it >again, but the intention was the same, due to the fact >that the MS came with a 2.5" floppy drive, and warez >were never supplied on that medium. Minor nitpick: The MiniSport came with 2.0" floppy drive(s). Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 14:47:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <796950.48511.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: Moooooooo. Moooooooooo. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 14:47:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:47:31 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <609961.79560.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com>, <609961.79560.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E2D6E3.21669.5E4E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 12:16, Chris M wrote: > >Fred Cisin > >to General > > >Try masking off pin 34. > > By masking off you simply mean disconnecting, > correct? It's not that I don't know, I'm merely > testing you. A bit of packing tape works just fine. Trim with an x-acto knife. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 15:13:21 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:13:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E2D6E3.21669.5E4E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <486494.26302.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Feb 2007 at 12:16, Chris M wrote: > > > >Fred Cisin > > >to General > > > > >Try masking off pin 34. > > > > By masking off you simply mean disconnecting, > > correct? It's not that I don't know, I'm merely > > testing you. > > A bit of packing tape works just fine. Trim with an > x-acto knife. Most 3.5ers have header type connectors, not card edge. I think he's going to have to snip the wire on that particular cable. Unless of course he's using one of those little adapter thingees with an available card edge connector on the end of his cable. That would be preferred. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Feb 26 15:28:48 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:28:48 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <796950.48511.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226161154.049a5af8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >--- Roger Merchberger >wrote: > >Moooooooo. Moooooooooo. Sorry; never raised cows. Raised chickens (incubated from eggs), ducks, rabbits, pheasants, couple pigs, and a dog (but we didn't eat him), but never a cow. I've lost 30 pounds over the last 2 years also, so I'm currently within military weight standards, so I doubt you're referencing my girth. Otherwise, "What Chuck Said." The trick he mentioned in his post also works well to disable the autostart pin on the TRS-80 Color Computer cartridges. [[ If you're wondering about my terse & enigmatic previous message, google for "xenocopy." Or click this: http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html ]] Laterz, -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 15:43:02 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 73 In-Reply-To: <01C75946.A8D89EE0@mse-d03> References: <01C75946.A8D89EE0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20070226134215.B95994@shell.lmi.net> > >Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? > > Who is this oyu? I can't speak for him/her/it, but not to me. > > Or is this Zen or some deep philosophical question for us to ponder? oyu is the one who understands the word "monmdering". From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 15:45:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:45:42 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <486494.26302.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45E2D6E3.21669.5E4E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <486494.26302.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E2E486.11899.3B29C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 13:13, Chris M wrote: > Unless of course he's using one of those little adapter thingees with > an available card edge connector on the end of his cable. That would be > preferred. If I remember the OP correctly, he was trying to put a 3.5" drive on an old Commodore PC5, which was configured for 5.25" drives. He'd almost have to use an adaptor. I don't know if a modern(?) "header- only" cable would work. Cheers, Chuck From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 16:01:03 2007 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:01:03 +1100 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem References: <486494.26302.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b401c759f1$a2a03ff0$0100a8c0@pentium> > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Most 3.5ers have header type connectors, not card > edge. I think he's going to have to snip the wire on > that particular cable. Unless of course he's using one > of those little adapter thingees with an available > card edge connector on the end of his cable. That > would be preferred. Worked! I have one of these connecters; machine now has 1.44mb flopy in it (working as a 720k). Thanks everyone for their suggestions. cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 16:06:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:06:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net> > > >Try masking off pin 34. > > > > By masking off you simply mean disconnecting, > >correct? It's not that I don't know, I'm merely > >testing you. Anything that will disconnect it. In the case of card edge connectors, a small piece of plastic tape. Pin 34 is at the end, and the backside (pin 33) is a redundant ground, so you can get away with wrapping the tape around, and then trimming with a knife. Some of the card edge to dual row header adapters for connecting 3.5" drives to XT cables even have a jumper to disconnect pin 34. If you don't mind disconnecting it for both drives, you can disconnect it at the FDC end. Or, you can cut that wire in the cable. Or, you can put a switch in the cable. While you are at it, put another switch in the line for the index pulse. If you can find one, there exist dual row header MF connectors and T's with 34 switches in series. Or, you can add switches or jumpers on the FDC. Might as well also put in a push button for NMI. If you've got an extra gate or two on the board, you could AND the signals (READY and INDEX), and control their passage in software. I assumed that folk here would understand "mask off" and come up with suitable methods. On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Methinks Fred has forgotten more about floppy drives than you could ever > learn... ;-) depends on how literally we should take that - I have forgotten a lot. Some others on this list, such as Chuck and Allison have not been so prone to "old-timer's" syndrome. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 16:22:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:22:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long-term storage (Was: Re: Google on hard drive failures) In-Reply-To: <45E31B18.7070201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200702232135.l1NLZ3Kb050701@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <45DF5C3B.19057.314E6A23@cclist.sydex.com> <45E24BE8.6010803@gmail.com> <45E31B18.7070201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070226142200.R95994@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Try the Voyager record. *That* puppy is going to be around > >>> (somewhere) for some serious millenia. Or the CD taped to the New > >>> Horizons Spacecraft, seen below in on-topic format :-). > >> > >> I wonder how much damage micrometeorites will do after a few millenia? > > > > Or radiation. On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Or aliens. If aliens do exist, it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of them > will break the darn thing in the process of trying to read and understand it. better warn them to write-protect it before mounting it in Windoze! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 26 16:44:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:44:40 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226161154.049a5af8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070226161154.049a5af8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <45E362D8.7060708@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Sorry; never raised cows. Raised chickens (incubated from eggs) That'll be different to the other sort of chicken that doesn't come from an egg, then ;) From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 26 16:59:45 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:59:45 -0600 Subject: 8-bit WD IDE adapter + CF? In-Reply-To: <45E23567.1030408@mdrconsult.com> References: <45E23567.1030408@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45E36661.3020407@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > > A few days ago someone mentioned that a CF-IDE adapter worked with an > 8-bit controller. I think. Something about compact flash and 8-bit > anyway. It was me. I'm using a Silicon Valley Computer ADP50 with a Maxtor 340MB drive as master and a CF-IDE adapter with 340MB CF IBM microdrive as the slave. This is on an IBM PC/XT (5160). Both the Maxtor and the CF push the maximum PIO over the bus, about 300KB/sec streaming reads. Some notes: - If anyone can find sources for ADP50s, please share. I only have one and I most definitely want at least one more. I am willing to trade hardware or a modest amount of buckazoids. - I could not get it to recognize all the geometry on a 504MB drive, which was surprising because I could've sworn such drives are under the 1024c 16h 64spt limit. It's possible one of those soft-BIOS tools (Ontrack? EZDrive?) might work, but I couldn't find a version that didn't require a 386 to run so I just went with the 340MB drive I had lying around. (I'm sure the actual code in the boot sector doesn't need a 386, just the install program. Had I not been lazier, I probably could have prepped the drive in another PC.) - Speed freaks: If you have a SCSI controller, such as Future Domain, you can go faster because the controller is memory-mapped. I believe Michael Brutman has clocked speeds of 500KB/s with his setup (on a PCjr, no less!) - Even with recognizing the full geometry of the drive, partitioning was non-trivial. The working setup right now is PC DOS 2K (IBM PC DOS 7.0 with Y2K fixes) and I believe I partitioned it with Ranish Partition Manager v. 2.37.11 (last version to run on 808x). The second drive, not needing a bootable primary partition, was much easier; native PC DOS 2K FDISK set the entire thing up as an extended partition + logical drive that covered the entire thing. MSDOS 6.22 works too. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 26 16:50:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:50:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 26, 7 08:03:19 pm Message-ID: > On 26/2/07 00:06, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > So, are you saying that the filter can has blade terminals for the live > > and neutral inputs/outputs? > > It does, and it did. Today I crimped some spades onto an IEC cable, strapped > the earth to the PSU case and it ran happily all afternoon. As luck would > have it I found a mains receptacle in the spares bins that also had spades > as outputs so the can is out and the new receptacle is in. With a sheet > metal plate as a cover over the remaining hole it's business as usual :) You > can't tell it's new stuff. I would strongly recoemnd adding some mains filtering. You can buy mains filters from places like RS and Farnell (they are not cheap, though!). It's pretty obvious how to link one up.. Has anyone ever tried to open up one of these filter modules? Most of the ones I've seen seem to have the cases soldered closed, so they could be taken apart, but are the compoents potted inside? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 26 16:35:09 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:35:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: plotters again In-Reply-To: <45E227DE.2430168@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 25, 7 04:20:45 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: [HP9815 interface conenctor on the HP9872 plotter, and the fact that it's bidirectional] > > Is this docuemtned anywhere? I can't see it in the 9872 operating/service > > manual, but as I said I've not seen the 98130 (9815 plotter interface) > > manual. > > Not that I have seen. OK, do you know this for certain, for example by doing tests on the system, disassembling the ROM in the 98130 interface or whjatever, or are you guessing it like I did? > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > HPIB-style, but not HPIB!. It may use the HPIB lavels, it may use the > > same 3 wire handshake, but it's not HPIB if it changes direction like > > that without any commands fromt he controller. That's what confused me. > > You kept on insisting it was HPIB, I still claim that, strictly, it can't be. > > Brent wrote: plotter HP-IB port that does just the data transfer > (minus all the HP-IB device selection, etc. functions) You claimed it was an HPIB port! It isn't. > > Brent wrote: the 8 HPIB data lines and 3 data-handshake lines are brought across > to the controlling machine. It's HPIB minus everything but the data-transfer. Ah, but it's not/ There's a trivial corrrection that i's only 7 data lines, and a more major one that it's darn well not HPIB. If it was truely HPIN, then without the ability to receive commands, it can't be bidirectional. Read the IIEEE-488 standard if you don't believe me (I have read it). > > Brent wrote: plotter microproc is distinguishing 9815 vs HPIB and acting appropriately. > > Brent wrote: un-addressed talk/listen HPIB-style data transfer. > > I never suggested it was HPIB in any sort of strict or complete sense. I said > it did not include the device addressing, which precludes direction selection > via device addressing. I never even raised the issue of direction selection, > you did, but as a declaration not a question. All I said was HPIB data > *transfer*. OK, it uses the HPIB 3-wire handshake. I think that much is clear from the schematics. I was (and still am) interested in knowing how it revereses the transfer direction. I've _guessed_ it was done based on the 2 devices (9815 and plotter) knowing what commands would cause the plotter to send back data and knowing how to determine the end of that data. But is that known _for sure_? > > Tony Duell wrote: > >I know what you've said, but _I_ have a problem with it. > >What you're describing is, I beleive, technically impossible. > > Apparently if one comes to a conclusion before you, it's technically impossible. Not at all... Noe I said 'I believe'. Not 'it is'. In other words, I am not sure. I still believe (and will continut to beleive until somebody shows me how it can be done) that a trune HPIB system without addressing fuctionality can't be bidirectional. A device that changes from being a listener to being a talker without receiving addressing commands is not an HPIB device. > I originally asked for HPGL plotter files. You just had to weigh in with your > (unsolicited) expert opinion about the interface. I kept indicating it didn't > seem like a big issue of complexity or concern. Hang on a second. Last time I checked this was a list for discussing classic computers and their peripherals. It is not a list to provide you (or anyone else) with your wants (in this case HPGL files). If you post about a machin, its quite possible you'll get a thread started that goes off in direction you'd never anticipated. If you don't like that, well, tough! I make no secret of the fact that I like HP desktop calculators. I am interested in them and their peripherals. And I openly admit to not knowing everything about them. I also said from the start that I'd neve seen a 9872 plotter or its interface. The reason I started asking about it was to _learn something_. This might be an alien concept for you, but some of us don't know everything. > If you were confused or wondering how I thought it worked you should have > asked a question. Instead you kept making declarative statements, many of which Oh come on... I did ask questions. You could also have tried correcting my comments _with verifyable facts_ -- that is, stuff from the manuals, stuff from your own measurements. Or even just guesses ('Well, it can't be true HPIB, but the way it changes direction could well be...'). Instead you flame me. > strayed well away from anything I had expressed any concern over. It was all about > Tony's expert opinion and advice. > > Get over yourself. > Pot. Kettle. Black. -toyn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 26 16:37:20 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:37:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <20070225163226.I50308@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 25, 7 04:36:43 pm Message-ID: > I, also, find it hard to comprehend how anybody could not have a pile of > junk. But, there ARE people who manage to function without it! > I just don't understand HOW. I am waiting with bated breath for that geeat God of classic computing (Brent) to flame you to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 26 16:56:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:56:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <486494.26302.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 26, 7 01:13:21 pm Message-ID: > Most 3.5ers have header type connectors, not card > edge. I think he's going to have to snip the wire on > that particular cable. Unless of course he's using one > of those little adapter thingees with an available > card edge connector on the end of his cable. That > would be preferred. I doubt you can still get them, but I've seen those adapters (heck, I've got a couple in use on my 5160 machine) that were in the form of a small PCB with card edge fingers (to plug the cable connector onto) and a 2-row 34 pin harder socket soldered to the PCB that fitted onto the back of the 3.5" drive. And there was a jumper on the PCB labelled 'XT' and 'AT' that disconnected pin 34 inthe 'XT' position. -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Feb 26 16:54:16 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:54:16 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45DFE67A.6080609@oldskool.org> References: <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> <20070223192951.I71680@shell.lmi.net> <200702240551.l1O5pcio002932@lots.reanimators.org> <20070223221430.B76442@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226164845.0cebbce0@localhost> At 01:17 AM 2/24/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: >>On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Frank McConnell wrote: >>>I am thinking interlnk/intersvr didn't turn up 'til MS-DOS 6.0. I >>>used to use them to back up my HP100LX (with the 100LX running >>>INTERSVR.EXE under its in-ROM MS-DOS 5.0), and I'm thinking they >>>weren't available 'til I upgraded the desktop PC from MS-DOS 5.0 to >>>MS-DOS 6. >>Was the RCV35 (or whatever it was called) from PC-DOS 3.30 present in >>MS-DOS? (used for transferring files from 5.25" PCs to 3.5" PS/2s) > >I have never heard of that at all -- What was the exact name, and why was >it necessary? I have PC DOS 3.3 here but I don't see anything like what >you're describing... This may not help on a machine of that vintage, but I have a software/hardware bundle here I'm looking to sell. It's Laplink Remote Access, Laplink V, TS Fax, TS Online, and Laplink Alert. It's got a still sealed plastic bag with 3 disks (3?" with two holes, so therefore 1.2mb?) and a cable in a box. The cable is some sort of hydra, with two DB-9S and one DB-25S, the later stamped SERIAL and TRAVELING SOFTWARE. The manual looks like a few hundred pages and is copyright 1993. -T [Haiku error messages] A file that big? / It might be very useful. / But now it is gone. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 26 17:33:32 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:33:32 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26/2/07 22:50, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> It does, and it did. Today I crimped some spades onto an IEC cable, strapped >> the earth to the PSU case and it ran happily all afternoon. As luck would >> have it I found a mains receptacle in the spares bins that also had spades >> as outputs so the can is out and the new receptacle is in. With a sheet >> metal plate as a cover over the remaining hole it's business as usual :) You >> can't tell it's new stuff. > > I would strongly recoemnd adding some mains filtering. You can buy mains > filters from places like RS and Farnell (they are not cheap, though!). > It's pretty obvious how to link one up.. Surely for the amount of times the machine will be running for any length of time a mains filter won't be THAT necessary? I'm not thinking of running the Pro for weeks at a time. > Has anyone ever tried to open up one of these filter modules? Most of the > ones I've seen seem to have the cases soldered closed, so they could be > taken apart, but are the compoents potted inside? This one's soldered shut so I'll probably take a saw to it just to see if it can be rebuilt. Looks like I've just been dumped by my partner of 9 years so I would appear to have some spare time on my hands. Aaanyhoo...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 17:48:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:48:54 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <45E30166.3695.ABF454@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 23:33, Adrian Graham wrote: > This one's soldered shut so I'll probably take a saw to it just to see if it > can be rebuilt. Looks like I've just been dumped by my partner of 9 years so > I would appear to have some spare time on my hands. I'd tap on it a bit to see if it sounds solid-potted or if it's an empty can (they come both ways). If it's an empty can, just pop it into the ol' toaster-oven and sweat it open--no need to bother with a saw. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 26 17:49:05 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:49:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 26, 7 11:33:32 pm Message-ID: > > > > I would strongly recoemnd adding some mains filtering. You can buy mains > > filters from places like RS and Farnell (they are not cheap, though!). > > It's pretty obvious how to link one up.. > > Surely for the amount of times the machine will be running for any length of > time a mains filter won't be THAT necessary? I'm not thinking of running the > Pro for weeks at a time. Maybe not... I don;t know how much hash a Pro power supply will try to put onto the mains if run without a filter, and how much interference it will cause. I'd fit a filter, if only becuase I like to keep my machines as close to the original design as possible, subject ot them working properly (in other words I'll do mods to fix design bugs, or to make the machine more useful to me, but in a case like this I'd try to fit a filter). > > > Has anyone ever tried to open up one of these filter modules? Most of the > > ones I've seen seem to have the cases soldered closed, so they could be > > taken apart, but are the compoents potted inside? > > This one's soldered shut so I'll probably take a saw to it just to see if it Let us (or at least me) know what you find out, please... > can be rebuilt. Looks like I've just been dumped by my partner of 9 years so > I would appear to have some spare time on my hands. I'm sorry to ehar the first part of that... -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 18:17:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <524262.58462.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> > I assumed that folk here would understand "mask off" > and come up with > suitable methods. Yes. Just that I envisioned a typical 3.5" drive and it seemed a tad inconsistent to use the term w/it's type of interface. I guess I was having a brain burp. When I typed the response to Chuck's reply, I remembered that an adapter would facilitate "masking off" a particular pin. But I just had din-din so I pormise to be much more alert :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 18:24:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:24:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> > depends on how literally we should take that - I have forgotten a lot. > Some others on this list, such as Chuck and Allison have not been so prone > to "old-timer's" syndrome. I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of those whom I didn't acknowledge. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 18:31:54 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:31:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <524262.58462.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <524262.58462.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070226163038.S6652@shell.lmi.net> > > I assumed that folk here would understand "mask off" > > and come up with > > suitable methods. On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Chris M wrote: > Yes. Just that I envisioned a typical 3.5" drive and > it seemed a tad inconsistent to use the term w/it's > type of interface. I guess I was having a brain burp. > When I typed the response to Chuck's reply, I > remembered that an adapter would facilitate "masking > off" a particular pin. I figured that it would be less irreversible than saying to break off that pin! > But I just had din-din so I pormise to be much more > alert :) plenty of lerts here From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 18:32:20 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:32:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <438760.25148.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other > extraordinarily knowledgeable > people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony > Duell, etc. This list > has a disproportionately large number of experts. > My apologies to all of > those whom I didn't acknowledge. Apology accepted LOL LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 26 18:44:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:44:41 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net>, <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E30E79.26672.DF0418@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2007 at 16:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Some others on this list, such as Chuck and Allison have not been so prone > > to "old-timer's" syndrome. Speak for yourself, Fred. With the wildly fluctuating barometer that we've had around these parts lately, I'd kill for a good night's sleep. "Mens sana in corpore sano", feh. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 26 18:46:28 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:46:28 -0600 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net> <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E37F64.9090802@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >> depends on how literally we should take that - I have forgotten a lot. >> Some others on this list, such as Chuck and Allison have not been so prone >> to "old-timer's" syndrome. > > I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable > people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list > has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of > those whom I didn't acknowledge. I'm not sure which group I fall into, you insensitive clod! ;) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 26 18:54:13 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:54:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226163038.S6652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <262232.19900.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > I figured that it would be less irreversible than > saying to break off that > pin! In the event where those adapter thingees weren't available, and the use of a more modern floppy cable was required (to accomodate a 3.5" drive w/a header connector), it would make the most sense IMHO to snip the pin 34 wire. It could always be soldered back together. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 18:59:07 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E37F64.9090802@oldskool.org> References: <45E08143.5403.1CE754C@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070226153903.012bb218@mail.30below.com> <20070226134946.L95994@shell.lmi.net> <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> <45E37F64.9090802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20070226165720.T8064@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm not sure which group I fall into, you insensitive clod! > ;) Anything that i say now will just dig me in deeper. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 26 19:15:10 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:15:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <262232.19900.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <262232.19900.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070226170652.J8064@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Chris M wrote: > In the event where those adapter thingees weren't > available, and the use of a more modern floppy cable > was required (to accomodate a 3.5" drive w/a header > connector), it would make the most sense IMHO to snip > the pin 34 wire. It could always be soldered back together. In my junk pile(s), I have those adapter thingees (technical term), 34, 40, 50 pin cables with some wires cut and switches soldered in, cables with breadboards, cables with 34 SPST switches, drives with cable connector mods, FDC cards with connector mods, etc. I've got half a dozen totes just for 34 pin cables. Anybody with a junk pile should be able to locate something that can be kludged to do the job. If you have NO junk pile, then you're on your own. (YOYO) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Feb 26 19:17:20 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:17:20 -0600 Subject: 8-bit WD IDE adapter + CF? In-Reply-To: <45E36661.3020407@oldskool.org> References: <45E23567.1030408@mdrconsult.com> <45E36661.3020407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45E386A0.1030403@brutman.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > - Speed freaks: If you have a SCSI controller, such as Future Domain, > you can go faster because the controller is memory-mapped. I believe > Michael Brutman has clocked speeds of 500KB/s with his setup (on a PCjr, > no less!) 300KB/sec doing sequential reads and writes, but still nothing to sneeze at. (My test setup is a PCjr with a NEC V20 and a Future Domain 950 chipset SCSI card with a 540MB Fujitsu hard disk.) Mike From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Feb 26 19:48:42 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:48:42 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226190606.0be930e0@localhost> At 12:31 PM 2/18/2007 -0500, you wrote: >On Feb 17, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>>hey, since the listing should be over by now (since you said you won >>>it)...perhaps you wouldn't mind sending us a link to the listing >>>so we can >>>all drool over exactly what you got? :P :D :) >> >>Sure, absolutely. The item number originally posted for $299 has >>been lost. The relist at my price is below. Try not to drool on the >>knobs- they get slippery and hard to adjust ~(:-) that's me >>with a feather in my cap. >> >>Item number: 330089349032 >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK >>%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330089349032&rd=1&rd=1 > > A truly tasty device! That's an excellent score. A great scope >in a great configuration, at an excellent price. Well, I have said device in my hands now and have been playing with it, trying to see if all the bits work. I haven't played with the curve tracer yet, but I have the manuals for all the plug-ins downloaded, also three or four slightly different manuals for the scope itself. I'm having a lot of fun working with it. It plays pretty nice. I've been running through the checkout process in the manual are so far there's only two concerns: 1. The display swims, more like twitches, from left to right, rapidly and constantly, somewhat less than one minor division, meaning about half a millimeter at a rough guess. It does it on any/all channels on both the 7A26 vertical amp and the 7A18 amp. I don't have another timebase to check out, but when I switch to the curve tracer instead of my 7B53A, the twitch in the on-screen readouts for controls settings stops. Of course, with the curve tracer, you can't sync up, but the readouts clue you that it is/is not dancing around. I tried swapping the timebase into the A slot, instead of the B slot (the 7CT1N wants to be in an inside slot) but the twitch is still there. 2. The Ch1 input on my second vertical amp seems to attenuate the signal by a tenth. The 4v calibrator at 1khz or DC reads 0.4v, set at 1v/div. The other input on the same plug-in reads 4v. Set to 0.5 v/div, the bad input reads about 1.2v. Switching the calibrator to 0.4v and the bad input to .2v/div gives similar results. I'm working my way through the manuals, learning as I go. [Toasts] Here's a toast to your new bride who has everything a girl could want in her life, except for good taste in men! --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 26 21:34:57 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:34:57 -0500 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: <01C759F6.7E8DD640@mse-d03> ---------------Original Messages: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:53:33 -0500 From: Patrick Finnegan Subject: Re: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar On Monday 26 February 2007 01:29, M H Stein wrote: > 1) Actually, according to WD it's a 10-pin drive, but CS is still pins > 1&2. However, I doubt that an old 486 would recognize CS, even with an > 80-conductor cable; the existing one probably works because it's > treated as a master with a 40-conductor cable. The host has nothing to do with cable select working. It only really depends on the drive and the cable. That's why it's called "cable select" and not "host select". One drive gets set to master, and the other to slave, based on their cable position. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org --------------Reply: You're right, of course; as long as the MB grounds pin 28 CS should work with a CS cable (mind you, this is a Packard-Bell, so anything's possible ;-). But since this is a 486 and the drive is not the original, it's quite likely that it has a normal non-CS cable; for a single drive jumpering CS or Master would work equally well, but a slave drive would require moving the main drive jumper and configuring as dual Master/Slave. I've certainly never seen a 486 with a CS cable as standard equipment (or even a stock 40-pin CS cable for that matter, although they're easy to make). Then again, this _is_ a P-B... Still best to use two IDE ports with both drives master (or CS) if possible. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 26 22:30:51 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:30:51 -0500 Subject: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar Message-ID: <01C759FE.43C99C80@mse-d03> --------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:28:26 -0800 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net Subject: Re: New "D" drive -- WD Caviar To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <200702260628.l1Q6SOoZ011678 at mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mr. DePermentier, I apologize for not mentioning this originally. The only jumper settings possible on the "C" drive are Device 0, Device 1 and Cable Select. Sorry for the omission. Kurt >Hi why don't you set the C: drive to Master and the D: drive to Slave. > >Al DePermentier > > --------------Reply: Nitpicking: Primary and/or Secondary Device (Drive) 0 and 1 are in fact the correct unambiguous names for the drives (although you will also see them referred to as Disk 1 and 2, e.g. in Fdisk, so maybe first & second would be even better). Two drives with single partitions will _usually_ be labelled as C: and D:, but if there are partitions or an unusual configuration C: and D: could refer to either drive, the same drive, or even neither one (unlikely in your case). To sum up: If you have a secondary IDE port that's not in use, use it for the second drive, jumpered as master, and leave the "C:" drive as is. If there are two drive connectors on the cable, use the one at the end. If you only have one port available or the BIOS only supports two drives, (and you have a 2-drive cable) it depends on whether you really have a CS cable (unlikely, but you can tell by looking for one of the wires (pin 28) being cut, or the corresponding insert missing from one of the connectors). If yes, set the new drive to CS, plug it into the unused connector, and it _should_ work. If not, i.e. you have a standard cable where all pins are connected, set the "C:" drive to Device 0 and the new drive to slave; in this case it doesn't matter which connectors you plug into which drive. mike From vp at drexel.edu Mon Feb 26 23:50:10 2007 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Watch out for Alexandra Carter (resolved) Message-ID: <200702270550.l1R5oAZk017138@dune.cs.drexel.edu> I feel bad for starting this thread, because the machine arrived today. The postage stamp indicated that it had been posted on February 16 (more than ten days ago -- so I was making all this fuss when the machine was already on its way). Having said that, Ms Carter is really mad. If she had simply given me the date she posted the package instead of filing the non-payment report I wouldn't have blown my top. Anyway, thanks to everybody for their support and helpful suggestions. **vp From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Feb 26 23:34:05 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:34:05 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226190606.0be930e0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070214183209.0c38ed28@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070217160622.0b37cc78@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226233310.0c0286a8@localhost> I think I may know why it was so cheap. The power supply died right after dinner today. Powering it up results only in "tick tick tick tick..." At 07:48 PM 2/26/2007 -0600, you wrote: >At 12:31 PM 2/18/2007 -0500, you wrote: >>On Feb 17, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >>>>hey, since the listing should be over by now (since you said you won >>>>it)...perhaps you wouldn't mind sending us a link to the listing >>>>so we can >>>>all drool over exactly what you got? :P :D :) >>> >>>Sure, absolutely. The item number originally posted for $299 has >>>been lost. The relist at my price is below. Try not to drool on the >>>knobs- they get slippery and hard to adjust ~(:-) that's me >>>with a feather in my cap. >>> >>>Item number: 330089349032 >>> >>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK >>>%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330089349032&rd=1&rd=1 >> >> A truly tasty device! That's an excellent score. A great scope >>in a great configuration, at an excellent price. > >Well, I have said device in my hands now and have been playing with it, >trying to see if all the bits work. I haven't played with the curve tracer >yet, but I have the manuals for all the plug-ins downloaded, also three or >four slightly different manuals for the scope itself. I'm having a lot of >fun working with it. > >It plays pretty nice. I've been running through the checkout process in >the manual are so far there's only two concerns: >1. The display swims, more like twitches, from left to right, rapidly and >constantly, somewhat less than one minor division, meaning about half a >millimeter at a rough guess. It does it on any/all channels on both the >7A26 vertical amp and the 7A18 amp. > >I don't have another timebase to check out, but when I switch to the curve >tracer instead of my 7B53A, the twitch in the on-screen readouts for >controls settings stops. Of course, with the curve tracer, you can't sync >up, but the readouts clue you that it is/is not dancing around. > >I tried swapping the timebase into the A slot, instead of the B slot (the >7CT1N wants to be in an inside slot) but the twitch is still there. > >2. The Ch1 input on my second vertical amp seems to attenuate the signal >by a tenth. The 4v calibrator at 1khz or DC reads 0.4v, set at 1v/div. The >other input on the same plug-in reads 4v. Set to 0.5 v/div, the bad input >reads about 1.2v. Switching the calibrator to 0.4v and the bad input to >.2v/div gives similar results. > >I'm working my way through the manuals, learning as I go. > > > > > > >[Toasts] Here's a toast to your new bride who has everything a girl >could want in her life, except for good taste in men! >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > > > > > [Literature] We must wrestle with time for some seven decades, and he is a weak and puny antagonist in the first three bouts. -- "Carcassonne", Lord Dunsany --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 00:04:50 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:04:50 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 42, Issue 73 In-Reply-To: <20070226134215.B95994@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C75946.A8D89EE0@mse-d03> <20070226134215.B95994@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45E3CA02.4030302@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Does the word 'wonmdering' have any meaning to oyu? >> Who is this oyu? I can't speak for him/her/it, but not to me. >> >> Or is this Zen or some deep philosophical question for us to ponder? > > oyu is the one who understands the word "monmdering". Soda -> Laptop. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Feb 27 02:27:51 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:27:51 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Graham"at Feb 26, 7 08:03:19 pm Message-ID: <297d01c75a49$360b9670$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) > On 26/2/07 00:06, "Tony Duell" wrote: -snippage- >Has anyone ever tried to open up one of these filter modules? Most of the >ones I've seen seem to have the cases soldered closed, so they could be >taken apart, but are the compoents potted inside? >-tony The ones in the mac 21" monitors were potted inside... they were nice and had the schematic of the filter silkscreened on the unit, but if you opened up the metal can it was a wad of epoxy in there. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 27 03:16:35 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:16:35 -0800 Subject: plotters again References: Message-ID: <45E3F6F5.BCA818A9@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > You claimed it was an HPIB port! It isn't. You are misrepresenting what I said by blatantly ignoring the qualifiers I presented. > The reason I started asking about > it was to _learn something_. This might be an alien concept for you, but > some of us don't know everything. > Oh come on... I did ask questions. You are misrepresenting the thread sequence. As regards the interface, your early messages consisted only of advice. You did not ask questions until well into the thread. > You could also have tried correcting > my comments _with verifyable facts_ -- that is, stuff from the manuals, You are ignoring the content of the messages. I did supply you with information straight from the schematic (list of interface signals, etc.), sufficient to come to the conclusion you later did. In my first interaction with you years ago you arrogantly and incorrectly dismissed a minor suggestion I made to another list member. I made little issue of it, but in the years since I have observed without comment the not-infrequent occasions on which you have annoyed, condescended to, and/or driven away other list members. I have tended to avoid interaction with you for anything other than the most minor issues, precisely to avoid getting sucked into one of these devolved debates. Apparently it was the better policy. I expect this thread is well past being an annoyance, or anything other than spectacle, to other list members. From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Feb 27 07:33:18 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:33:18 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226233310.0c0286a8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226190606.0be930e0@localhost> Message-ID: <200702271333.l1RDX26E009350@hosting.monisys.ca> >I think I may know why it was so cheap. The power supply died >right after dinner today. Powering it up results only in >"tick tick tick tick..." If this is why it was cheap, the seller would have had to have known that it was going to fail.... See if it "comes back" after having been off for a while. Perhaps this is a known condition of the unit. Shouldn't be all that tough to fix... IIRC it uses a switching invertor to generate an internal 50v supply which all of the lower voltage supplies feed from - Sounds like the regulation of the invertor is not working and it is getting shut down. I've seen other 7904s which exhibited "ticking" like this, so it may be a common problem. I recall that the service manual has a pretty good description of the power supply - if you don't already have it, you can get it in PDF form from: http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/7904 [If you can get it - the mirror has been spotty lately - if you can't, I do have a copy of it, and we can work out some way to get it to you - iirc it's pretty big.] I had my own positive experience with a dead Ebay scope lately... I bought a dead HP54201D (300Mhz DSO) in the hopes of getting parts for mine which has been experiencing problems (and HP doesn't provide service information) - It was in pretty rough shape, power-switch broken, case banged up, screen-burn, no probes or state pods, and listed as "immediately blows it's line fuse" - but I took a chance on it and picked it up in the hope that the analog board would be in better shape than mine. Arrived a couple days ago - inside looked to be in pretty good shape, and I immediately noticed one of the primary line side filter capacitors was "humped up" at the top of the can - so I removed it and found that it had exploded/leaked ... cleaned up the board and investigated a bit more and found a shorted diode in the primary line recitifier bridge - replaced both components, and the scope works perfectly! (Much better than my other one). It also has newer firmware than mine, so I simply swapped all boards into the nicer looking chassis... Next step is to use the good/working scope as a reference to track down the triggering problem in the other one. (Schemtics would sure be helpful!) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From kth at srv.net Tue Feb 27 11:38:17 2007 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:38:17 -0700 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E46C89.1010601@srv.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > This one's soldered shut so I'll probably take a saw to it just to see if it > can be rebuilt. Looks like I've just been dumped by my partner of 9 years so > I would appear to have some spare time on my hands. > > If there is any type of "wet" capaciter in there, make sure you are wearing eye protection, at least. You don't want to get squirted with assorted chemicals in your eyes. I wouldn't bother rebuilding them, they are just line filters, and you can find them from many sources. Some old PC power supplies, other dead equipment, electronic supply houses, etc. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 27 12:37:44 2007 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:37:44 +0000 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: <45E46C89.1010601@srv.net> Message-ID: On 27/2/07 17:38, "Kevin Handy" wrote: > If there is any type of "wet" capaciter in there, make sure > you are wearing eye protection, at least. You don't want to > get squirted with assorted chemicals in your eyes. I'll not bother then, other postings mention blocks of epoxy so there's no point. > I wouldn't bother rebuilding them, they are just > line filters, and you can find them from many sources. > Some old PC power supplies, other dead equipment, > electronic supply houses, etc. I paid more attention to the one I've fitted temporarily and it DOES have a schematic on the top and is indeed a mains filter. Once I've made a metal cover for the old hole nobody'll know the difference :) (The new filter is much much smaller than the old one) Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 27 13:14:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:14:49 -0800 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: <45E46C89.1010601@srv.net>, Message-ID: <45E412A9.4740.4D760CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Feb 2007 at 18:37, Adrian Graham wrote: > I paid more attention to the one I've fitted temporarily and it DOES have a > schematic on the top and is indeed a mains filter. Once I've made a metal > cover for the old hole nobody'll know the difference :) (The new filter is > much much smaller than the old one) ...and it's hard to say what the old one contained (i.e., just a couple of capacitors and inductors or more than that?). Since you've got the real estate, I'd also check the input to the PSU to see if any MOVs are onboard. If not, you might want to add a couple in the extra space you've got. Cheap protection against surges. Food for thought, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Feb 27 13:35:09 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:35:09 -0500 Subject: The Lightning Empiricist: Analog Computers in the real world Message-ID: I just re-discovered (after decades since I last saw it) a remarkable newsletter/journal/marketing tool titled "The Lightning Empiricist". If you Google for it you will find stuff from 55 years ago (some of it through/via the Computer History Museum). Good stuff. Highly recommended. Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 27 13:59:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:59:34 -0600 Subject: New DEC museum entry :D (not the breaker sub-thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E48DA6.3080504@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyone ever tried to open up one of these filter modules? Most of the > ones I've seen seem to have the cases soldered closed, so they could be > taken apart, but are the compoents potted inside? Yes and yes :) I can't for the life of me remember why I took one to bits now, but I did at some point last year. All potted inside, with no PCB or anything and components just soldered directly together. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 14:19:20 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:19:20 +0000 Subject: Humpty Dumpty In-Reply-To: <45CBA2C6.30808@gmail.com> References: <45CBA2C6.30808@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/8/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > As an aside, INMHO E-bay feedback is seriously broken, in that you can > > bet seller will give you negative feedback if you give him negative > > feedback, no matter how poor the product, how misleading the discription, > > how promptly you paid, etc. > > That's why, when I need to leave negative feedback, I do it minutes > before the 90-day deadline is about to go by. I found out recently that this doesn't actually work. If you know the item number and the ePay username of the person you're trying to leave feedback for, you can do it forever (there is no 90-day deadline). Also (curiously), leaving a feedback after such a long time (it was getting on for a year in this particular case) "reanimates" the auction listing - now those *do* expire after 90 days, but after I left said feedback, the one for the auction suddenly became accessible again. Weird. Ed. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 27 17:18:19 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:18:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226233310.0c0286a8@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Feb 26, 7 11:34:05 pm Message-ID: > > I think I may know why it was so cheap. The power supply died right after= > =20 > dinner today. Powering it up results only in "tick tick tick tick..." I was going to suggest PSU problems for the jittery display.... I don't haev the scheamtics for the 7904, but I saw them once (in the lab where I used the 7904). IIRC the manaul was entitled 'electrical parts lists and diagrams'. I do remember the PSU was a fairly complex switcher ;-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 27 17:14:41 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:14:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 26, 7 04:24:25 pm Message-ID: > I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable > people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list > has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of > those whom I didn't acknowledge. I am not sure what my name is doing on that list... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 27 17:13:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:13:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <524262.58462.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 26, 7 04:17:52 pm Message-ID: > > > I assumed that folk here would understand "mask off" > > and come up with > > suitable methods. > > Yes. Just that I envisioned a typical 3.5" drive and > it seemed a tad inconsistent to use the term w/it's > type of interface. I guess I was having a brain burp. > When I typed the response to Chuck's reply, I > remembered that an adapter would facilitate "masking > off" a particular pin. Another idea would be to crimp another IDC connector onto the cable alongside the connector that's already there (the same side of any 'IBM twist, for example). You could pull the pin 34 contact out of the connector before fitting it to the cable. And of course you could use a header socket, not an edge conenctor, to plug directly into the 3.5" drivc. -tony From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 27 19:14:03 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:14:03 -0500 Subject: Obscure handheld wanted! Message-ID: <000d01c75ad5$bd983030$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, I'm looking for a Panasonic FH-2000, Panasonic HC-2000, or Nixdorf PC-05. If anybody here has one, then please contact me off-list if you're willing to sell or trade it. Thanks! - Evan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 27 19:15:13 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:15:13 -0800 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: <524262.58462.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 26, 7 04:17:52 pm, Message-ID: <45E46721.14565.62153A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Feb 2007 at 23:13, Tony Duell wrote: > Another idea would be to crimp another IDC connector onto the cable > alongside the connector that's already there (the same side of any 'IBM > twist, for example). You could pull the pin 34 contact out of the > connector before fitting it to the cable. And of course you could use a > header socket, not an edge conenctor, to plug directly into the 3.5" drivc. I didn't suggest that because a fair number of people like to leave the equipment in "original" state and one never knows when one is about to suggest improving the Mona Lisa by adding some facial hair to the picture. :) Chuck From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 19:18:19 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:18:19 +0000 Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? Message-ID: Hi cctalkers, A while back there was a URL posted somewhere on this list about a (1950s?) character generator which worked solely by mixing harmonics, with X-Y output to connect to a display tube. It could only generate the digits 0-9, but was a seriously impressive piece of kit nonetheless. I recently wanted to show this to a friend, and couldn't find it with any amount of Googling. If someone can remember this site, or has it bookmarked, I'd be endlessly grateful for the URL. Thanks, Ed. From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Feb 27 19:48:54 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:48:54 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 26, 7 04:24:25 pm Message-ID: <200702280148.l1S1mcPr005136@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable > > people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list > > has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of > > those whom I didn't acknowledge. > > I am not sure what my name is doing on that list... > > -tony Mine either... - Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 19:52:49 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:52:49 -0800 Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702271752t31ae9a39gba62a560d99d594c@mail.gmail.com> On 2/27/07, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hi cctalkers, > > A while back there was a URL posted somewhere on this list about a > (1950s?) character generator which worked solely by mixing harmonics, > with X-Y output to connect to a display tube. It could only generate > the digits 0-9, but was a seriously impressive piece of kit > nonetheless. > Found this, but this is probably something different that what you were looking for. "X-Y alphanumeric character generator for oscilloscopes" http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3866210.pdf BTW, this this the scheme that the scope interface of the SYM-1 uses? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 27 19:55:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:55:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E46721.14565.62153A4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 27, 7 05:15:13 pm Message-ID: > > > Another idea would be to crimp another IDC connector onto the cable > > alongside the connector that's already there (the same side of any 'IBM > > twist, for example). You could pull the pin 34 contact out of the > > connector before fitting it to the cable. And of course you could use a > > header socket, not an edge conenctor, to plug directly into the 3.5" drivc. > > I didn't suggest that because a fair number of people like to leave > the equipment in "original" state and one never knows when one is > about to suggest improving the Mona Lisa by adding some facial hair > to the picture. In which case, buy a suitable conenctor to fit the controller (either a header socket or an edge connector), connectors for the 2 drives (all IDC types) and a length of 34 way iDC ribbon cable. Make up a new drive cable, with the 'IBM twist' and pin 34 pulled on the 3.5" connector . When you've finished using the 3.5" drice, put the original cable back in the machine. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 19:56:19 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:56:19 -0800 Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90702271756k6b83735eu8870935577234a6b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/27/07, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hi cctalkers, > > A while back there was a URL posted somewhere on this list about a > (1950s?) character generator which worked solely by mixing harmonics, > with X-Y output to connect to a display tube. It could only generate > the digits 0-9, but was a seriously impressive piece of kit > nonetheless. > Again probably not what you are looking for, but there is a modern day scope clock kit. "The scope clock displays the time on a small oscilloscope tube. The numerals are formed from circles, arcs and lines" http://www.cathodecorner.com/sc100.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 27 20:19:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:19:39 -0800 Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702271752t31ae9a39gba62a560d99d594c@mail.gmail.com> References: , <1e1fc3e90702271752t31ae9a39gba62a560d99d594c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45E4763B.5366.65C513D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Feb 2007 at 17:52, Glen Slick wrote: > Found this, but this is probably something different that what you > were looking for. I don't know if anything's online, but the old "double eyeball" operator's console for the Control Data 6000 series used an RLC network to generate the complete set of 63 displayable characters. The display technology was vector with refresh provided by a PPU (usually PP1) rewriting the entire contents of both screens periodically. Cheers, Chuck From lee at geekdot.com Tue Feb 27 20:56:19 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 03:56:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? Message-ID: <2884.82.71.40.17.1172631379.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> http://www.nixiebunny.com/crtgen/crtgen.html Lee. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 21:22:24 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:22:24 -0500 Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E4F570.6010706@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable >> people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list >> has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of >> those whom I didn't acknowledge. > > I am not sure what my name is doing on that list... Don't be modest. You're a veritable fountain of information. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 27 22:38:34 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:38:34 -0500 Subject: Pinout of RJ12 to minidin (PS/2) keyboard adapter for IBM 315x terminals Message-ID: <200702272338.34393.pat@computer-refuge.org> I know that a couple people who watch this list were wanting this info... I took the one RJ12 to minidin-6 adapter which I got with an IBM 3153 terminal, and pinned it out. The pinout of the connectors is from what I could tell, the "standard" pinout for each connector. RJ12 (tab down) MiniDIN-6 (socket) 1 .. 6 /--__--\ +------+\ / 6 || 5 \ |||||||| | | 4 3 | | | | \ 2 1 / +------+ | \------/ \______\| Ok, now the cable pinout: DIN RJ12 Use 1 2 Data 2 4 N/C 3 4 GND 4 6 +5VDC 5 1 Clock 6 N/C N/C Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Feb 27 23:49:01 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:49:01 -0600 Subject: s-100 cards, free for the price of shipping Message-ID: <45E517CD.90609@pacbell.net> Spring comes early in Texas; too many days in a row of 80 degree weather triggers my spring cleaning subroutine. I have just poorly photographed and barely cataloged 28 S-100 cards, all but one, made by IMS -- Industrial Micro Systems. None are tested. My main criterion for picking will be whatever is easy for me, but I can't say that unfairness, prior exchanges, and unfounded opinion will also influence which board goes to where. That is, if I'm so lucky that anybody wants these. The boards are well made, although some have had parts removed (most are complete). None have been tested by me. I've had them for, uh, I guess two years, and the previous owner was given them some years before. You can see the index and pictures here: http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/s100/ Each card is in a 6"x10" antistatic bag, inside a padded mailer. They will be further padded with bubble wrap and boxed, and sent via USPS priority mail. You pay the shipping. I'll give people a few days to respond, then I'll get to work boxing and mailing. Please let me know which board(s) you are interested it, and if you have some specific need or use for one, let me know that too as it may influence the judge. Responding to the list instead of frustum at pacbell.net is an automatic 3/10th scoring deduction. If you are wonder why there are no cards 11, 22, or 33, it is because I used my children's number blocks to act as an index record when photographing, and there is only one of each number. :-) Below is the index: Box #1 ======================================================================== 1 - IMS A645 Rev B Z80 CPU; 2K boot ROM labelled "TST"; empty spot for RTC 2 - IMS C00451 Z80 CPU, (c) 79 3 - IMS A930 Rev C Floppy Disk Controller (NEC 765-based); also NEC 8257 (DMA) 50 pin connector (8"), (c) 84 4 - IMS A443 I/O Board, NS 8255 PIO, "IPL REV 1.4" EPROM, 2*GI AY-3-1015 UART, NEC 8253 PIT, one ear missing from connector, two empty sockets; not sure if they should be stuffed or not 5 - IMS A1021 Rev C, (c) 1983, 64K DRAM, with parity and parity error indicator All 9 DRAMs have been removed, but otherwise intact 6 - IMS C00451 Z80 CPU, Rev C., (c) 79 7 - IMS C00442 I/O Board, NS 8255 PIO, "IPL REV 1.4" EPROM, 2*GI AY-3-1015 UART, NEC 8253 PIT 8 - IMS C00480 4-Line Comm. Controller (NS 8250 * 4) 9 - IMS A930 Rev C Floppy Disk Controller (NEC 765-based); also NEC 8257 (DMA) 34 pin connector (5.25"), (c) 84 12 - IMS A930 Rev B Floppy Disk Controller (NEC 765-based); also NEC 8257 (DMA) 34 pin connector (5.25"), (c) 82 13 - IMS C00442 I/O Board, NS 8255 PIO, "IPL REV 1.1" EPROM, 2*GI AY-3-1015 UART, NEC 8253 PIT 14 - IMS A971 Rev A (c) 83, Z80A CPU board, but it has been stripped of some chips, including the Z80 and boot ROM, a few jellybeans, likely a couple serial controllers, and a RTC 15 - IMS A971 Rev B (c) 83, Z80A CPU board, but it has been stripped of some chips, including the Z80 and boot ROM, a few jellybeans, likely a couple serial controllers, and a RTC Box #2 ======================================================================== 21 - IMS A1030 Rev A, (c) 83, Isolated I/O board; 16 inputs, 16 outputs 23 - IMS A1270 Rev B, (c) 84, Z80B Master/Slave Board; missing Z80, two banks of DRAM, RTC, serial chip, but jellybeans are there 24 - IMS C00464, (c) 79, 64KB DRAM, parity checked, 4x9x16Kb all DRAMs missing 25 - IMS C00401, (c) 79, floppy controller, NEC 765, NEC 8257 (DMA) 50-pin connector (8") plus a 16-pin connector (??) 26 - IMS C00480, (c) 79, 4-Line Comm. Controller, 4*8250 27 - IMS A821 Rev A WD Controller; 8255 PIO, EPROM labeled '5" WINCH' This very likely requires an adapter card, which I have many of 28 - IMS A821 Rev A WD Controller; 8255 PIO, EPROM labeled '5" WINCH' This very likely requires an adapter card, which I have many of 29 - IMS A821 Rev A WD Controller; 8255 PIO, EPROM labeled '5" WINCH' This very likely requires an adapter card, which I have many of 31 - IMS A1021 Rev C, (c) 1983, 64K DRAM, with parity and parity error indicator All 9 DRAMs have been removed, but otherwise intact 32 - IMS C00451 Z80 CPU Board Rev B, (c) 79 34 - IMS A1100 Rev D, (c) 84, Winchester Controller ST412/506 type interface NEC 8085 CPU, EPROM, 2KB SRAM, three Adaptec disk interface chips 35 - IMS A1100 Rev C, (c) 84, Winchester Controller ST412/506 type interface NEC 8085 CPU, EPROM, 2KB SRAM, three Adaptec disk interface chips 36 - IMS A1100 Rev C, (c) 84, Winchester Controller ST412/506 type interface NEC 8085 CPU, EPROM, 2KB SRAM, three Adaptec disk interface chips 37 - IMS A1010 A/D Converter, Rev A, (c) 83, 8 Channels; NS ADC0809 38 - unknown mfr modem Finally, sorry for the poor quality photos. I'm not a photographer and I didn't check them until after I had already taken all the pictures and slipped each card into an anti-static bag. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 28 00:12:53 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:12:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: s-100 cards, free for the price of shipping In-Reply-To: <45E517CD.90609@pacbell.net> References: <45E517CD.90609@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Jim Battle wrote: > Spring comes early in Texas; too many days in a row of 80 degree weather > triggers my spring cleaning subroutine. > > I have just poorly photographed and barely cataloged 28 S-100 cards, all > but one, made by IMS -- Industrial Micro Systems. None are tested. How much to ship them all to Bakersfield, CA 93306? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 28 01:18:06 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:18:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: s-100 cards, free for the price of shipping In-Reply-To: References: <45E517CD.90609@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Jim Battle wrote: > > > Spring comes early in Texas; too many days in a row of 80 degree weather > > triggers my spring cleaning subroutine. > > > > I have just poorly photographed and barely cataloged 28 S-100 cards, all > > but one, made by IMS -- Industrial Micro Systems. None are tested. > > How much to ship them all to Bakersfield, CA 93306? Whoops. That was supposed to be private. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ying6926 at ureach.com Wed Feb 28 02:07:48 2007 From: ying6926 at ureach.com (Henry Ji) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 03:07:48 -0500 Subject: microvax monitor card needed Message-ID: <200702280807.DAA15729@www22.ureach.com> The monitor of my microvax died. It is worse to play with machine without monitor than without mouse on modern computer. The model is matrox 1985 QG-640 254-06-02. I could not read it clearly. It could be QC-640 instead of QG-640. Just wonder if anyone has this for sale or giveway. thanks Henry From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Feb 28 01:35:16 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:35:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] Message-ID: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Some of you may reacll that, back in July, I wrote about an oscilloscope whose power transformer failed in service. Well, today I was going through my tuit collection and found some round ones. I've now clipped the transformer free of the circuit and removed it. I then applied an ohmmeter to the transformer, now that it's free of the machine, which gave me good guesses at what winding is what. Then I got out the current-limiting light bulb rig and hooked the primary up (well, half the primary; it has a split primary, for 115/230 mains switching). Then I measured the primary voltage and the voltages on various interesting windings. Based on all of this, I think I have a good guess what's what: - Input mains: four wires, two windings, which are connected in parallel for 115V operation and series for 230V operation. - 5VAC filament winding for B+ rectifier tube. - ~800VAC CT (400-0-400) winding which is rectified for B+. (With 26V on the 115V-nominal mains primary, this measured 176V, or ~778V when running normally.) - Filament winding for one HV rectifier tube. - Filament winding for the other HV rectifier tube. - HV supply winding. - 6.3VAC CT winding to run the heaters for most tubes. (There are some 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped heaters.) - There is one more wire unaccounted for. On opening the transformer case, I find it is a case ground. The HV supply winding appears to be fried. I didn't bother with all the filament windings (though I did measure the heater winding, which appeared to be intact); the B+ supply winding seemed intact, but the HV supply winding showed ~2V instead of the 200-300V I would expect with ~25V on the primary. So now I'm thinking of finding a half-dozen different transformers to run the six different pieces off of.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 06:07:04 2007 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:07:04 +0000 Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? In-Reply-To: <2884.82.71.40.17.1172631379.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2884.82.71.40.17.1172631379.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 2/28/07, Lee Davison wrote: > http://www.nixiebunny.com/crtgen/crtgen.html That's the one. Well done that man! How's life? Are you still in Ludlow? Got any further with the Battlezone-over-IP project? Ed. From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 28 07:19:56 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:19:56 -0500 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200702281319.l1SDJfTW021464@hosting.monisys.ca> > - Input mains: four wires, two windings, which are connected in > parallel for 115V operation and series for 230V operation. > - 5VAC filament winding for B+ rectifier tube. > - ~800VAC CT (400-0-400) winding which is rectified for B+. (With 26V > on the 115V-nominal mains primary, this measured 176V, or ~778V when > running normally.) > - Filament winding for one HV rectifier tube. > - Filament winding for the other HV rectifier tube. > - HV supply winding. > - 6.3VAC CT winding to run the heaters for most tubes. (There are some > 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped heaters.) > - There is one more wire unaccounted for. On opening the transformer > case, I find it is a case ground. They are probably old/collectable enough now that you wouldn't want to part out a "good" one, but if you can find a dead/partial one, old B&W console televisions often have nice transformers with several 6.3v filament windows, a CT B+ winding, and often several others thrown into the mix. Later model "portable" sets with hot-chassis don't, but some of the old consoles do. Probably won't give you everything you need, but you might get away with only two xfmrs. You won't get the HV winding, but you may be able to generate this with a voltage multiplier - I built my first scope "from scratch", and used an old TV transformer, and a tripler from a 600v winding to get the 2kv needed for the CRT. It worked very well. Dave PS: I have a friend who's into restoration of old tube type gear, I'll forward your posting to him on the off-chance that he might have something similar, or an idea of where to find one. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 28 07:53:01 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:53:01 -0500 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200702281319.l1SDJfTW021464@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200702281352.l1SDqjZq029581@hosting.monisys.ca> > > - Input mains: four wires, two windings, which are connected in > > parallel for 115V operation and series for 230V operation. > > - 5VAC filament winding for B+ rectifier tube. > > - ~800VAC CT (400-0-400) winding which is rectified for B+. (With 26V > > on the 115V-nominal mains primary, this measured 176V, or ~778V when > > running normally.) > > - Filament winding for one HV rectifier tube. > > - Filament winding for the other HV rectifier tube. > > - HV supply winding. > > - 6.3VAC CT winding to run the heaters for most tubes. (There are some > > 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped heaters.) > > - There is one more wire unaccounted for. On opening the transformer > > case, I find it is a case ground. One further note - on a scale of 1-10, how authentic do you want the repaired scope to be? If the answer is 0-2, consider replacing the HV and B+ rectifiers with solid state - this eliminates three filament windings - assuming you generate the HV via another means as I suggested in my last posting, all you need now is the main filiment windings and the CT B+ windings which should not be all that hard to find in a single transformer. If the answer is 10, you could consider rewinding the transformer - I can provide some more information on this, but if you've never done it, it's not all that much fun (it's not fun if you have done it before either). Btw - I just did a google search on "transformer rewinding" and there are a few people advertising that they do this... Might not hurt to make a few inquiries. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Feb 28 08:34:04 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:34:04 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <200702271333.l1RDX26E009350@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070226233310.0c0286a8@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070226190606.0be930e0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228082916.0c2a8070@localhost> At 08:33 AM 2/27/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >I think I may know why it was so cheap. The power supply died > >right after dinner today. Powering it up results only in > >"tick tick tick tick..." > >If this is why it was cheap, the seller would have had to have >known that it was going to fail.... See if it "comes back" after >having been off for a while. Perhaps this is a known condition >of the unit. I've tried it once a day since Sunday. No go. >Shouldn't be all that tough to fix... IIRC it uses a switching >invertor to generate an internal 50v supply which all of the >lower voltage supplies feed from - Sounds like the regulation >of the invertor is not working and it is getting shut down. >I've seen other 7904s which exhibited "ticking" like this, so >it may be a common problem. Some other folks have mentioned "tantalum time bombs" in the power supply that die shorted after several decades. I'm trying to decide whether to go after it on that basis or try to get something out of the seller. >I recall that the service manual has a pretty good description >of the power supply - if you don't already have it, you can get >it in PDF form from: > http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/7904 I spent two days before the scope arrived downloading many manuals (low serial numbers, high serial numbers, mil-spec, commercial, all the plug-ins) from the primary bama site. The mirror worked great for few hours but I went back to the primary when the mirror started to act squirrely. >I had my own positive experience with a dead Ebay scope lately... >I bought a dead HP54201D (300Mhz DSO) in the hopes of getting >parts for mine which has been experiencing problems (and HP >doesn't provide service information) - It was in pretty rough >shape, power-switch broken, case banged up, screen-burn, no >probes or state pods, and listed as "immediately blows it's >line fuse" - but I took a chance on it and picked it up in the >hope that the analog board would be in better shape than mine. > >Arrived a couple days ago - inside looked to be in pretty good >shape, and I immediately noticed one of the primary line side >filter capacitors was "humped up" at the top of the can - so I >removed it and found that it had exploded/leaked ... cleaned up >the board and investigated a bit more and found a shorted diode >in the primary line recitifier bridge - replaced both components, >and the scope works perfectly! (Much better than my other one). > >It also has newer firmware than mine, so I simply swapped all >boards into the nicer looking chassis... Next step is to use the >good/working scope as a reference to track down the triggering sounds like you had a more positive experience than me. Good for you! Hackers make toys. Crackers break them. (Peter Seebach) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 28 09:12:14 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:12:14 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228082916.0c2a8070@localhost> References: <200702271333.l1RDX26E009350@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200702281512.l1SFBxXR014770@hosting.monisys.ca> > >See if it "comes back" after > >having been off for a while. Perhaps this is a known condition > >of the unit. > > I've tried it once a day since Sunday. No go. Thats probably good news - nothing harder to fix than a problem which comes and goes ... If it firmly busted, it shouldn't be too hard to find. > Some other folks have mentioned "tantalum time bombs" in the power supply > that die shorted after several decades. Yes, tants tend to die of old age ... Easy to find and fix. Depending on how much "ommph" the power supply has, bad tants can often be found by visual (or olfactory) inspection (If inspecting with power-on, wear safty glasses - I've had more than one cap blow up in my face). If not, tracing through the supply path should quickly take you to the problem area. "Ticking" often indicates a switcher trying to come up into to great a load (like a shorted cap) - Have you tried pulling all the modules to see if the DC supplies come up, if they do, it could be a bad module (also likely to be a bad cap). I'm assuming the internal circuitry of the mainframe will be enough load to let the supply come up normally - IIRC it will come up under no load, but I could be mistaken (leaky memory bits). >I'm trying to decide whether to go > after it on that basis or try to get something out of the seller. Since it hasn't recovered, he probably didn't know it was about to expire - likely it has been unused for a good long time, he powered it up long enough to say "it works!" - and you powered it up long enough for some wheezing component to pack it in. All ya gotta do is find out what failed - power supply problems are usually pretty straightforward to diagnose. Any equipment this age can die at any moment, so even if it made it past 90 days or whatever, you still might need to fix it sooned than you would have liked. If I got a good price on it, and it's a piece I wanted, I'd probably just fix it - but thats your call. As Tony mentioned - giving the PS a good overhaul could also help with the twitchy traces you observed when it was working. > >Arrived a couple days ago - inside looked to be in pretty good > >shape, and I immediately noticed one of the primary line side > >filter capacitors was "humped up" at the top of the can - so I > >removed it and found that it had exploded/leaked ... cleaned up > >the board and investigated a bit more and found a shorted diode > >in the primary line recitifier bridge - replaced both components, > >and the scope works perfectly! > sounds like you had a more positive experience than me. Good for you! Well... my expectations were low as it was advertised to be DOA - As the seller said - he "packed it carefully to make sure that it would arrive broken". I just got lucky and it was an easy fix - yours could be too! Best of luck with it. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Feb 28 10:02:25 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:02:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200702281352.l1SDqjZq029581@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200702281352.l1SDqjZq029581@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200702281611.LAA19283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > One further note - on a scale of 1-10, how authentic do you want the > repaired scope to be? I'm a bit Tonyish on this: I'd take unauthentic but working over authentic but broken any day. :-) I'm mostly looking for a working 'scope cheap, basically. If that means an external pod with a half-dozen transformers in it, well, so be it. It's not as if I'd be making it impossible to rip that out and install a single replacement if I manage to luck into one. > If the answer is 0-2, consider replacing the HV and B+ rectifiers > with solid state - this eliminates three filament windings - assuming > you generate the HV via another means as I suggested in my last > posting, all you need now is the main filiment windings and the CT B+ > windings which should not be all that hard to find in a single > transformer. I was thinking about something like this, yes. I haven't traced the circuit enough to be certain, but I think that if I leave the rectifier tubes out of their sockets, I should be able to drive the B+ and HV lnies with pretty much anything that can supply the required voltages and handle the current draw. I was actually considering replacing most of the circuitry with solid-state stuff, leaving just the last couple of tubes to drive the deflection plates. > Btw - I just did a google search on "transformer rewinding" and there > are a few people advertising that they do this... Might not hurt to > make a few inquiries. That's something I've been considering too, finding someone who does custom transformers. With proper equipment it should be pretty easy, I'd think, but you sorta have to do it as a business to amortize the cost of the gear over many jobs to make it worthwhile. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Feb 28 11:42:40 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:42:40 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <200702281512.l1SFBxXR014770@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228082916.0c2a8070@localhost> <200702271333.l1RDX26E009350@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228114037.0c4e5b98@localhost> At 10:12 AM 2/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >See if it "comes back" after > > >having been off for a while. Perhaps this is a known condition > > >of the unit. > > > > I've tried it once a day since Sunday. No go. > >Thats probably good news - nothing harder to fix than a problem >which comes and goes ... If it firmly busted, it shouldn't be too >hard to find. I sure hope that's true. > > Some other folks have mentioned "tantalum time bombs" in the power supply > > that die shorted after several decades. > >Yes, tants tend to die of old age ... Easy to find and fix. Depending on >how much "ommph" the power supply has, bad tants can often be found by >visual (or olfactory) inspection (If inspecting with power-on, wear safty >glasses - I've had more than one cap blow up in my face). If not, tracing >through the supply path should quickly take you to the problem area. I hope some of the many manuals I've downloaded has a good schematic. >"Ticking" often indicates a switcher trying to come up into to great a >load (like a shorted cap) - Have you tried pulling all the modules to see >if the DC supplies come up, if they do, it could be a bad module (also >likely to be a bad cap). I'm assuming the internal circuitry of the >mainframe will be enough load to let the supply come up normally - IIRC >it will come up under no load, but I could be mistaken (leaky memory bits). As far as I remember, you shouldn't run a switcher with no load at all. I did try to remove all the modules and turn the panel illumination off. Still does the same thing. > >I'm trying to decide whether to go > > after it on that basis or try to get something out of the seller. > >Since it hasn't recovered, he probably didn't know it was about to >expire - likely it has been unused for a good long time, he powered >it up long enough to say "it works!" - and you powered it up long >enough for some wheezing component to pack it in. All ya gotta do is >find out what failed - power supply problems are usually pretty >straightforward to diagnose. > >Any equipment this age can die at any moment, so even if it made it >past 90 days or whatever, you still might need to fix it sooned than >you would have liked. If I got a good price on it, and it's a piece >I wanted, I'd probably just fix it - but thats your call. > >As Tony mentioned - giving the PS a good overhaul could also help >with the twitchy traces you observed when it was working. > > > > >Arrived a couple days ago - inside looked to be in pretty good > > >shape, and I immediately noticed one of the primary line side > > >filter capacitors was "humped up" at the top of the can - so I > > >removed it and found that it had exploded/leaked ... cleaned up > > >the board and investigated a bit more and found a shorted diode > > >in the primary line recitifier bridge - replaced both components, > > >and the scope works perfectly! > > > sounds like you had a more positive experience than me. Good for you! > >Well... my expectations were low as it was advertised to be DOA - As the >seller said - he "packed it carefully to make sure that it would arrive >broken". I just got lucky and it was an easy fix - yours could be too! > >Best of luck with it. > >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html [Philosophy] Life: a sexually transmitted disease that is fatal. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 28 16:57:51 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:57:51 -0500 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228114037.0c4e5b98@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228082916.0c2a8070@localhost> <200702271333.l1RDX26E009350@hosting.monisys.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20070228114037.0c4e5b98@localhost> Message-ID: On Feb 28, 2007, at 12:42 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > As far as I remember, you shouldn't run a switcher with no load at > all. I did try to remove all the modules and turn the panel > illumination off. Still does the same thing. This very much depends on the switcher. Generally speaking, all but the very oldest switching power supplies are fine with little or no load. I'm very sorry (and surprised) to hear that your new scope went boom. Those 7000-series boxes are generally indestructible. I hope you're able to resurrect it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 28 17:27:11 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:27:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Analogue/vector character generator - anyone remember the URL? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90702271756k6b83735eu8870935577234a6b@mail.gmail.com> from "Glen Slick" at Feb 27, 7 05:56:19 pm Message-ID: > > A while back there was a URL posted somewhere on this list about a > > (1950s?) character generator which worked solely by mixing harmonics, > > with X-Y output to connect to a display tube. It could only generate > > the digits 0-9, but was a seriously impressive piece of kit > > nonetheless. > > > > Again probably not what you are looking for, but there is a modern day > scope clock kit. > > "The scope clock displays the time on a small oscilloscope tube. > The numerals are formed from circles, arcs and lines" > > http://www.cathodecorner.com/sc100.html Also not what you're looking for, but the HP9100 calculator displayed 7-segment digits on an electrostatically-deflected 'scope' tube. There was an integrator (used a a ramp generator) for each axis, with inputs to move slowly to drwa a line and quickly to get the next segment/digit. The service manual is over on hpmuseum.net, and although it's mostly a boardswapper guide, it does have some info on the display circuitry. My schematics for the 9100B are over there too. There may be some more info in the HP9100 inerfacing manual, but that seems to be almost impossible to find (is it on the web anywhere?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 28 17:36:30 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200702280823.DAA16404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 28, 7 02:35:16 am Message-ID: > > Some of you may reacll that, back in July, I wrote about an > oscilloscope whose power transformer failed in service. Well, today I > was going through my tuit collection and found some round ones. I've > now clipped the transformer free of the circuit and removed it. > > I then applied an ohmmeter to the transformer, now that it's free of > the machine, which gave me good guesses at what winding is what. Then > I got out the current-limiting light bulb rig and hooked the primary up > (well, half the primary; it has a split primary, for 115/230 mains > switching). Then I measured the primary voltage and the voltages on > various interesting windings. Based on all of this, I think I have a > good guess what's what: > > - Input mains: four wires, two windings, which are connected in > parallel for 115V operation and series for 230V operation. > - 5VAC filament winding for B+ rectifier tube. > - ~800VAC CT (400-0-400) winding which is rectified for B+. (With 26V > on the 115V-nominal mains primary, this measured 176V, or ~778V when > running normally.) > - Filament winding for one HV rectifier tube. > - Filament winding for the other HV rectifier tube. The type of those valves will give you a good idea as to the voltage required of course. Almost certainly the EHT rectifier vavles are directly-heated, so the filament will be at some high voltage wrt earth. These windings will need good insulation. > - HV supply winding. > - 6.3VAC CT winding to run the heaters for most tubes. (There are some > 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped heaters.) I assume things like 12AX7s... It's intereting. for vavles with centre-tapped heaters, the US code gives the voltage for the 2 parts in series (as 12AX7), whereas thte European code gicves the voltage for parallel connections (ECC83 -- E = 6.3V heater) > - There is one more wire unaccounted for. On opening the transformer > case, I find it is a case ground. It may also go to an inter-winding shield. > > The HV supply winding appears to be fried. I didn't bother with all > the filament windings (though I did measure the heater winding, which > appeared to be intact); the B+ supply winding seemed intact, but the HV > supply winding showed ~2V instead of the 200-300V I would expect with > ~25V on the primary. My first concern is that the primary voltage is very low -- in other words this transformer draws excessive input current even when unloaded. This suggests to me shorted turns, probably in the HV winding (which would alos explain the very low outptu voltage there. > > So now I'm thinking of finding a half-dozen different transformers to > run the six different pieces off of.... A couple of ohter thoughts. You might consider rewinding the original transformer, although getting the insulation to withstanda a few kV would be 'interesting. I don't know how easy it would be to remove the shorted HV winding (is it near the outside of the windings?). If you can get it off and put the rest of the windings back with the right insulation, you could keep the exisitng transformer fo the heaters, HV rectifiers filaments, B+ line, etc and only have to provide the HV input. Maybe a seprate transformer (or a transformer + voltage multiplier) for that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 28 17:28:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:28:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <45E4F570.6010706@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Feb 27, 7 10:22:24 pm Message-ID: > >> I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable > >> people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list > >> has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of > >> those whom I didn't acknowledge. > > > > I am not sure what my name is doing on that list... > > Don't be modest. You're a veritable fountain of information. There's at least one person on the list (other than me ;-)) who would disagree with you... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 28 17:44:35 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:44:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228114037.0c4e5b98@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Feb 28, 7 11:42:40 am Message-ID: > > At 10:12 AM 2/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > > >See if it "comes back" after > > > >having been off for a while. Perhaps this is a known condition > > > >of the unit. > > > > > > I've tried it once a day since Sunday. No go. > > > >Thats probably good news - nothing harder to fix than a problem > >which comes and goes ... If it firmly busted, it shouldn't be too > >hard to find. > > I sure hope that's true. It is. You can't possibly find a fault that's not there. And an intermittant fault is 'not there' when the device works correctly. One of the most annying faults to trace (and we've all had them) is the fault that disappears when you connect a 'scope probe _anywhere_ on the device under test. Most likeht it's a bad conneciton somewhere, but finding it will drive you (in)sane... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 28 17:41:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:41:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200702281611.LAA19283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 28, 7 11:02:25 am Message-ID: > > > One further note - on a scale of 1-10, how authentic do you want the > > repaired scope to be? > > I'm a bit Tonyish on this: I'd take unauthentic but working over > authentic but broken any day. :-) Well, I like things to work, but equally, I do try to maintain the original design. For example I probably wouldn't replace valve rectifiers with semiconductors. I owuld consider re-winding the transformer (not original) or useing serveral separate transformers to replace it (even less original, but at least the design is basically unchagned). But it's your call... -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Feb 28 18:00:19 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:00:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200703010012.TAA24047@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The type of those valves will give you a good idea as to the voltage > required of course. Yes. I need to look them up; they don't appear in the reference book I have at ready hand. ("Had", actually; it's at home and I'm not. That's also why I don't give the valve type number here.) > Almost certainly the EHT rectifier vavles are directly-heated, Yes. All the rectifier valves (including the B+ one) have filaments rather than heaters. >> (There are some 12V-heater tubes, but they all have centre-tapped >> heaters.) > I assume things like 12AX7s... 12AU7, from memory - again, they're at home and I'm not. (If you have my emails from the summer, they include a valve complement list.) > My first concern is that the primary voltage is very low -- in other > words this transformer draws excessive input current even when > unloaded. Yes - as I mentioned back in the summer. This is just further confirmation of it. I was using a 40W light bulb in series with the primary, as a current limiter, which is why the primary voltage was 25V instead of ~120V. The bulb was glowing (not quite full power, but close). > This suggests to me shorted turns, probably in the HV winding (which > would alos explain the very low outptu voltage there. I agree; this is why I suspect the HV winding of being the culprit. > You might consider rewinding the original transformer, although > getting the insulation to withstanda a few kV would be 'interesting. Quite. It also would be "interesting" to get it apart far enough to rewind. It's a laminated core made up largely of E-shaped pieces, and getting it apart would mean either cutting them (= destructive), solvents to unstick the tar/shellac/resin/whatever that's holding them together (= likely damage to the other windings' insulation), or a *lot* of patience working them apart. And unwinding a winding nondestructively without taking the core apart...well, it better be the outermost winding, and would require a lot of patience to feed the wire through over, and over, and over again. To just pull off the HV winding, if it's outermost, I could cut most of the turns to simplify the work, since that winding I don't care about preserving. (I should also check out the three filament windings, mostly for completeness...and I really need to trace out a schematic of at least the power-supply portions of the thing.) > I don't know how easy it would be to remove the shorted HV winding > (is it near the outside of the windings?). I don't remember. > If you can get it off and put the rest of the windings back with the > right insulation, you could keep the exisitng transformer fo the > heaters, HV rectifiers filaments, B+ line, etc and only have to > provide the HV input. Maybe a seprate transformer (or a transformer > + voltage multiplier) for that. I'll look at that when I get home. Certainly there seems to be some goodness happening between the primary and the heater winding, ditto the B+ winding. I imagine the HV winding is either innermost or outermost, simply because it's easiest to insulate that way. But of course that's a guess, and in this case it'll be easy to look and find out. Actually, come to think of it, looking at your (natural enough) use of "valve" where I'd write "tube", I'm curious - are CRTs called CRTs on your side of the pond, or something else (CRV?)? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Feb 28 18:13:53 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:13:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200703010019.TAA24088@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> One further note - on a scale of 1-10, how authentic do you want >>> the repaired scope to be? >> I'm a bit Tonyish on this: I'd take unauthentic but working over >> authentic but broken any day. :-) > Well, I like things to work, but equally, I do try to maintain the > original design. I suspect I care somewhat less about that than you do. At least in this case. > For example I probably wouldn't replace valve rectifiers with > semiconductors. I'm not sure I'd *replace* them, but I'm giving real thought to putting in parallel power-supply circuitry that uses solid-state rectifiers and feeds the B+ and HV power lines. But that depends on the correctness of my guess that removing the rectifier tubes will be enough to isolate the B+ and HV power so I can feed them externally. > I owuld consider re-winding the transformer (not original) or useing > serveral separate transformers to replace it (even less original, but > at least the design is basically unchagned). Yeah. Put it this way: if I were to somehow get an exact replacement transformer, I'd like to be able to do a little unsoldering and resoldering and have it in basically original condition. But this is not inconsistent with using solid-state rectifiers, if my guess about the rectifier tubes is correct. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 28 18:27:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:27:06 -0800 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: References: <200702281611.LAA19283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 28, 7 11:02:25 am, Message-ID: <45E5AD5A.13860.B1BA23E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Feb 2007 at 23:41, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I like things to work, but equally, I do try to maintain the > original design. For example I probably wouldn't replace valve rectifiers > with semiconductors. Assuming that the load characteristcs allowed it, I'd do it in a heartbeat, particulary with noisy gas rectifiers (such as OZ4). There used to be a small market for direct plug-in solid state replacements for the more common ones, such as 80, 5U4, 5Y3, 6Z4, etc. But the old auto-radio vibrator supplies really improved with decreased noise when one replaced the old cold-cathode gas rectifier. The filament for a 5U4 is what, 5 volts at 3 amps? That's 15W of heat that you don't have to worry about. I'd also replace old selenium rectifiers with silicon diodes. Many years ago, IR offered cross-referenced silicon replacements for selenium rectifiers. Seleniums are pretty stinky when they went kablooie. As far as anode supplies for CRTs, go, you may want to consider several junkbox solutions other than voltage multipliers. You can cobble up a small inverter with not much more than a transistor or two and a small transformer. There are also packaged versions of the same that can be found by scavenging old photocopiers. You can also find HV supplies in air filters, bug zappers and a whole host of other things. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 28 18:31:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:31:03 -0800 Subject: I am now Annoyed [Re: Old oscilloscope help: ideas sought] In-Reply-To: <200703010012.TAA24047@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <200703010012.TAA24047@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45E5AE47.716.B1F3FF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Feb 2007 at 19:00, der Mouse wrote: > Actually, come to think of it, looking at your (natural enough) use of > "valve" where I'd write "tube", I'm curious - are CRTs called CRTs on > your side of the pond, or something else (CRV?)? This has come up before--it's "tube" if I recall. The same applies to terms suchl as TWT. The only difference is that some pronounce it "chube" on the other side of the pond. :<) Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 28 19:20:40 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:20:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT - cool space photo available In-Reply-To: <773270.34083.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580117.20679.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Getting through a backlog of emails. Could you forward it on to me, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: If anyone is interested, I have a photo someone sent me of this: "...a time lapse photo of the ROPA (40.020) launch where you can see the aurora in the background and all four stages." Still haven't set up the ol' website, so I can't simply post it there. If anyone would like me to forward it to them, ping me. Really groovy stuph. The wonderful human being who sent it to me was actually involved in the launch, in some capacity. I might not be forwarding it out until the next time I'm online. Prolly Monday or Tuesday. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 28 20:27:28 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:27:28 -0800 Subject: what BS Message-ID: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160090821802 "After living and breathing my life working on DG equipment, I have put together an extensive set of manuals for the mininova, nova, Supernova, eclipse minicomputers life." How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. At least the guy that's been selling bitsavers stuff in Israel puts the source in his ads. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 28 20:33:51 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 02:33:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT - cool space photo available In-Reply-To: <580117.20679.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18445.60928.qm@web23409.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Sorry everyone, that was supposed to be sent direct to Chris. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Andrew Burton wrote: Getting through a backlog of emails. Could you forward it on to me, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Chris M wrote: If anyone is interested, I have a photo someone sent me of this: "...a time lapse photo of the ROPA (40.020) launch where you can see the aurora in the background and all four stages." Still haven't set up the ol' website, so I can't simply post it there. If anyone would like me to forward it to them, ping me. Really groovy stuph. The wonderful human being who sent it to me was actually involved in the launch, in some capacity. I might not be forwarding it out until the next time I'm online. Prolly Monday or Tuesday. ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Feb 28 20:36:12 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:36:12 -0600 Subject: what BS References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00e901c75baa$611c21b0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.... > How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. Wonder if I could send him an invoice for the bandwidth he used when downloading it all. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 28 20:46:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:46:56 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45E5CE20.26346.B9BA78A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Feb 2007 at 18:27, Al Kossow wrote: > How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. > > He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add > makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. Al, do you watermark your PDFs? Do the bitsavers PDFs allow for resale? Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 28 21:25:09 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E5CE20.26346.B9BA78A@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 28, 7 06:46:56 pm" Message-ID: <200703010325.l213P9JR018340@floodgap.com> > > How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. > > > > He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add > > makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. > > Al, do you watermark your PDFs? I think it would be a wise idea. It certainly seems to happen enough. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. ---------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 28 21:38:55 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:38:55 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <200703010325.l213P9JR018340@floodgap.com> References: <200703010325.l213P9JR018340@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:25 PM -0800 2/28/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. >> > >> > He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add >> > makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. >> >> Al, do you watermark your PDFs? > >I think it would be a wise idea. It certainly seems to happen enough. I think they should at least include information on where they came from. I really hate this form of eBay seller. I've seen the same problem with other hobbies. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 28 21:51:40 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:51:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring an XT - transfer problem In-Reply-To: <200702280148.l1S1mcPr005136@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <20070226161358.D6652@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 26, 7 04:24:25 pm <200702280148.l1S1mcPr005136@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <20070228194916.R36652@shell.lmi.net> > > > I did NOT mean to sleight any of the other extraordinarily knowledgeable > > > people on this list, such as Dave Dunfield, Tony Duell, etc. This list > > > has a disproportionately large number of experts. My apologies to all of > > > those whom I didn't acknowledge. > > On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am not sure what my name is doing on that list... On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Mine either... I accused both of you of being extraordinarily knowledgeable. If that is offensive to either of you, then I apologize. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 28 22:06:46 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:06:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Feb 28, 7 07:38:55 pm" Message-ID: <200703010406.l2146kMJ004864@floodgap.com> > I think they should at least include information on where they came > from. I really hate this form of eBay seller. I've seen the same > problem with other hobbies. I've also seen a similar racket with "map prints" -- you buy what you think is a map, and get a badly reproduced inkjet copy. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's a sucker born every minute. -- P. T. Barnum ------------------------ From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Feb 28 22:07:54 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:07:54 -0600 Subject: Tek 7904 scope In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228114037.0c4e5b98@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070228220655.0d073798@localhost> What I really need is someone that's done troubleshooting on a 7904 power supply before, that can offer a few suggestions. Like, if I do locate a bad cap, what should I replace it with? The DigiKey catalog is vast. -T At 11:44 PM 2/28/2007 +0000, you wrote: > > > > At 10:12 AM 2/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >See if it "comes back" after > > > > >having been off for a while. Perhaps this is a known condition > > > > >of the unit. > > > > > > > > I've tried it once a day since Sunday. No go. > > > > > >Thats probably good news - nothing harder to fix than a problem > > >which comes and goes ... If it firmly busted, it shouldn't be too > > >hard to find. > > > > I sure hope that's true. > >It is. You can't possibly find a fault that's not there. And an >intermittant fault is 'not there' when the device works correctly. > >One of the most annying faults to trace (and we've all had them) is the >fault that disappears when you connect a 'scope probe _anywhere_ on the >device under test. Most likeht it's a bad conneciton somewhere, but >finding it will drive you (in)sane... > >-tony ----- 273. [Philosophy] "What experience and history teach is this--that people and government never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it." --Hegel --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 28 22:46:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:46:07 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45E5EA0F.1806.C08C249@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Feb 2007 at 18:27, Al Kossow wrote: > He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add > makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. How about marking the title page of each document with a diagonal gray overprint that says something like "www.bitsavers.org"? You could keep the non-marked originals for your private stash. The manuals would still be quite usable, but there would be no doubt of their origin. Just thinkin'... Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Feb 28 23:04:40 2007 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:04:40 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Al, On Wednesday 28 February 2007 18:27, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160090821802 > > "After living and breathing my life working on DG equipment, I have put > together an extensive set of manuals for the mininova, nova, Supernova, > eclipse minicomputers life." > > How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. > > He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add > makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. > > At least the guy that's been selling bitsavers stuff in Israel puts the > source in his ads. Geesh, this is disgusting and irritating. Unfortunately, there are always slime out there who take advantage of honest people's work. The only thing you might do to curtail this kind of "thievery" is to "watermark" key pages of manuals on bitsavers. But it's probably not worth it. Most folks are going to discover "bitsavers.org" and never "buy" what can be downloaded freely. Besides, most serious collectors already know and value greatly the work you've done to create bitsavers... Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 28 23:13:39 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:13:39 -0800 Subject: what BS Message-ID: <45E66103.1050209@bitsavers.org> > The only thing you might do to curtail this kind of "thievery" is to > "watermark" key pages of manuals on bitsavers. I don't care if people sell the files, what annoyed me was the implication in the ad that he did the work. I also see he points to bitsavers when he 'includes' a manual with a board http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160073926988 A few weeks ago, I bought an Applied Microsystems 8085 ICE 'with manual' It was a CD of my scan off bitsavers. From recycler at swbell.net Wed Feb 28 23:20:00 2007 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick J. Jankowiak) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:20:00 -0600 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45E66280.9080501@swbell.net> watermarks are annoying. better to report him to ebay for copyrighted material? PJ Lyle Bickley wrote: > Hi Al, > > On Wednesday 28 February 2007 18:27, Al Kossow wrote: > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160090821802 >> >>"After living and breathing my life working on DG equipment, I have put >> together an extensive set of manuals for the mininova, nova, Supernova, >> eclipse minicomputers life." >> >>How nice. It just happens to match the pdfs from a well known source. >> >>He's done this with other parts of the archive, but this particular add >>makes it sound like he actually did some WORK. >> >>At least the guy that's been selling bitsavers stuff in Israel puts the >>source in his ads. > > > Geesh, this is disgusting and irritating. > > Unfortunately, there are always slime out there who take advantage of honest > people's work. > > The only thing you might do to curtail this kind of "thievery" is to > "watermark" key pages of manuals on bitsavers. > > But it's probably not worth it. Most folks are going to discover > "bitsavers.org" and never "buy" what can be downloaded freely. > > Besides, most serious collectors already know and value greatly the work > you've done to create bitsavers... > > Regards, > Lyle From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 28 23:35:04 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:35:04 -0500 Subject: what BS References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org> <200702282104.41154.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <005301c75bc3$5dd5c6f0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "Al Kossow" Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:04 AM Subject: Re: what BS > Hi Al, > > > Geesh, this is disgusting and irritating. > > Unfortunately, there are always slime out there who take advantage of honest > people's work. > > The only thing you might do to curtail this kind of "thievery" is to > "watermark" key pages of manuals on bitsavers. > > But it's probably not worth it. Most folks are going to discover > "bitsavers.org" and never "buy" what can be downloaded freely. > > Besides, most serious collectors already know and value greatly the work > you've done to create bitsavers... > > Regards, > Lyle > -- I have a few manuals for old video capture cards and other gear that is very hard to find I wanted to make PDFs of. I want the PDFs incase my manuals get lost, or if a fellow collector needs a copy (since they cannot be purchased easily or at all).The issue I have is why watermark (to prevent theft) something that you do not even own the copyright to release in the first place? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 28 23:44:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:44:20 -0800 Subject: what BS In-Reply-To: <005301c75bc3$5dd5c6f0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <45E63A10.4040306@bitsavers.org>, <005301c75bc3$5dd5c6f0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45E5F7B4.2133.C3E0EB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Mar 2007 at 0:35, Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a few manuals for old video capture cards and other gear that is very > hard to find I wanted to make PDFs of. I want the PDFs incase my manuals get > lost, or if a fellow collector needs a copy (since they cannot be purchased > easily or at all).The issue I have is why watermark (to prevent theft) > something that you do not even own the copyright to release in the first > place? So, you're saying that Al should remove all of the material published after 1923 from bitsavers? I don't get your point--if he watermarks the pages, he's just saying that it's his time and webspace. Cheers, Chuck